Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII and Chapter XVIII.
© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
**
** LET THERE BE CHAINS
>> On June 23, 2016 at 6:24 am, Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Wwtktr…your questions can be answered at safety matters Facebook page video…
>> On June 23, 2016 at 8:29 am, Muzzy said…
>>
>> The video shows a presentation detailing the items included in
>> the 200k + cost overrun. Includes observation deck roof, path to deployment
>> site, signage, including biographies of HSs, benches, etc.
Copy that. Yes… I ultimately caught that ( in that video ). Thank you ( both ).
That FOX10 full-video link DOES show the guy ( Project manager ‘Skip’ ) doing his ‘presentation’ to that lightly-attended and short-notice PUBLIC meeting.of the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Board’…
https://www.facebook.com/FOX10Phoenix/videos/1056141377767742/
Presenter’s name was ‘Skip’ ( Walter ‘Skip’ Varney ), of Arizona State Parks… and he was the ‘Project Manager’ for Arizona State Parks and the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.
There is still no ‘detail’ breakdown supplied about what all these ‘Future Development’ items actually cost. It’s all just ‘lumped together’ on that PowerPoint screen into the $229,000 total.
Just for future reference… here is exactly what that ‘PowerPoint’ slide says…
———————————————————————————————
Future Development
– Trail to Deployment Site
Crew + trail building equipment to create
final 3/4 mile trail segment – 35-60 days.
American Conservation Experience
– Biography Plaques ( 19 )
Engraved 2′ x 2′ plaques ??
Installed into existing or provided rock.
Set in Stone, AZ – De
– Observation Deck
Steel structure, with perforated metal roof,
surface material.
Transport material to site / install
Arizona Correction Industries ( ACI )
– Master Road Sign ( Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park )
4′ by 8′ concrete, metal & stone sign on base.
Arizona Correction Industries ( ACI )
– Benches ( 12 )
Metal laser cut benches.
Transport / install at site.
Arizona Correction Industries ( ACI )
– Interpretive Signs ( 6 )
– Observation Deck Signs ( 2 )
– Trailhead Signs ( 2 )
– Deployment Site Sign ( 1 )
Fabrication / transport to site / install included.
Arizona Correctional Industries ( AC I )
Total…………………… $229,000
———————————————————————————————-
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Interesting that the markers are all shown in the diagram
>> as crosses, given that Eric Marsh was supposedly
>> Buddhist. I couldn’t tell from the photos if it is a cross
>> or some other symbol.
Yes… the actual spot where each firefighter died is marked with a metal ‘cross’, painted purple, regardless of actual religious affiliation ( or lack thereof ).
These were already in place before the legal settlement-mandated ‘Family Staff Ride’ took place back in the first week of April, 2016.
And YES… that one ‘sample biographical information plaque’ shown in the ‘presentation’ ALSO has a ‘christian cross’ engraved on the background.
The slide in the presentation at the meeting shows the sample plaque for deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Clayton Whitted. It has an ‘engraved’ photo of him and the writing says…
Clayton Thomas Whitted
Squad Leader, ??, FIRB, FALC, EMT
June 27, 1985 – June 30, 2013
“I Thank My God Every Time I Remember You”.
In the lower left corner is an ‘etched’ version of the Granite Mountain logo.
In the upper right ( background ) is an ‘etched’ version of a christian cross.
Clayton Whitted is just one ( of several… Parker, Deford, etc. ) of the Granite Mountain Hotshots who was also an official christian ‘youth minister’ ( at the ‘Heights’ Church, in Prescott ).
Whitted saw ‘Hotshoting’ as an actual ‘ministry’ and way to ‘bring Christ to those firefighters’.
From Whitted’s obituary published at Outside Online…
—————————————————————————–
Clayton Whitted, 28
Squad boss Clayton Whitted, a Prescott native, was a youth minister who saw firefighting as his way of serving God. He married his wife, Kristi, in February, 2011.
—————————————————————————–
From Whitted’s obituary published at AZCENTRAL…
—————————————————————————–
Bob Hoyt, a pastor at The Heights Church, said Whitted was above all a servant, to God and his fellow men Hoyt said few men in their early 20s would have quit a job to take care of their ailing mother, but that’s is what Whitted did seven years ago when his mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Whitted left the Prescott Hotshots and took a job at The Heights as a youth minister in order to be close to home all year. After his mom passed away, Hoyt said, Whitted joined Granite Mountain, so he could MINISTER to the men while continuing to fight wildfires.
——————————————————————————
From Whitted’s obituary published in the ‘New york Times’…
——————————————————————————
Clayton Whitted felt a SPIRITUAL CALLING to fight fires.
He grew up in Prescott, Ariz., and joined the Prescott Hotshots right out of high school.
Around 2007, he left the Hotshots for about a year and went to work as a pastor at Heights Church, hoping to spend more time with his family in Prescott while his mother was ailing.
In 2008, he decided to return to firefighting, this time with the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Bob Hoyt, a fellow pastor at Heights Church, said Mr. Whitted told him: “God just wants me to be a firefighter. I feel like I can be Christ to those firemen.”
——————————————————————————
From the Clayton Whitted WRONGFUKL DEATH CLAIM letter submitted
by Prescott attorney Patrick McGroder…
——————————————————————————-
Clayton Whitted felt a strong pulling to teach others about God, but also wanted to serve the community. After his mother passed, Clayton joined Granite Mountain so that he could MINISTER to men WHILE fighting wildfires.
——————————————————————————-
From…
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130702yarnell-fire-clayton-whitted-obit.html
——————————————————————————-
According to Bob Hoyt, PASTOR of the Prescott ‘Heights’ Church… Clayton Whitted ministered full time to youth, overseeing Bible study groups at the church, Hoyt said. Clayton took a full time position with the Heights Church youth and became the junior high pastor. This was a wonderful fit for Clayton and he was able to use his gifts of ministry as he mentored HUNDREDS of young teens.
After his mom passed away, Hoyt said, Whitted joined Granite Mountain, so he could MINISTER to the men WHILE continuing to fight wildfires.
“He told me firefighting allowed him the perfect mix,” Hoyt said. “He could help the community AND minister to good men happy to listen. He was very excited.”
Though Clayton had re-entered the world of firefighting he continued to lead Bible studies and prayer groups.
He never failed to put God first.
Clayton’s work with the Granite Mountain Hotshots expanded, as did his responsibility when he became a SQUAD LEADER.
Clayton’s plans, though wonderful in and of themselves, tied directly into God’s plan and that is something Clayton knew well. Clayton’s desire was that EVERYONE he came into CONTACT WITH might experience the same love he knew, the love of God, through his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
—————————————————————————-
I think you get the picture ( regarding Whitted ).
Hotshoting wasn’t just a ‘job’… he treated it as some kind of ‘christian ministry’ ( as did Parker, Deford, etc. ).
So yea… it makes perfect sense that Whitted would have a ‘christian cross’ permanently engraved on his Arizona Public State Park ‘biographical plaque’…
But… it remains to be seen if this ‘christian cross’ engraved in the background will be a standard inclusion on ALL of these public state park ‘plaques’ for ALL of the Granite Mountain hotshots, or for just the ones whose families might have REQUESTED it.
Apparently, ALL 19 of these ‘plaques’ are going to be ‘installed’ NOT at the deployment site itself… but somewhere along the 2.85 mile hiking trail… to ( quote ) “existing rock or provided rock”.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> As to the ugliness, it seems that the basic dishonesty surrounding the 19
>> has found expression in this design. Sentimentality replaces spirituality,
>> clutter replaces clarity, ego replaces truth. Buddhist my ass.
I agree.
And the ‘chains’ between the ‘lobster traps’ ( gabions ) seem to be a fitting ‘symbolic’ touch as well, considering how the ‘truth’ has always been ( and CONTINUES to be ) one of the ‘victims’ in this tragedy.
The ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ has FINALLY stopped ignoring Arizona LAW and they have ( only recently ) FINALLY published the ‘minutes’ from their last meeting held way back on October 23 of the year 2015.
We can now see how the original design was forced ( by Amanda Marsh and Deborah Pfingston supposedly ‘representing’ ALL the Family members ) backwards from an ‘open’ design… to the one we see now… complete with CHAINS preventing access to the actual deployment site at this Arizona State PUBLIC park.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 20, 2016 at 7:08 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> You won’t get Paul Harvey, ‘the rest of the story’ but you will get more of the story.
Thank you.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The anonymous person met with the AZ Wildfire Academy IC and Deputy IC
>> to ask some questions and briefly discuss the matter after confirming they
>> were aware of the issue.
>>
>> He asked them (1) what he allegedly said and did and where and (2) what was
>> the YH Fire and GMHS briefing that they gave to everyone else at the AZ Wildfire
>> Academy that he did not receive.
>>
>> The first question was verified as posted here. And yes, Naumetz was the one
>> that got it rolling by going to Amanda Marsh.
So… just to be clear… the thing that Naumetz was ‘reporting’ to this person selling T-Shirts in the lobby was that someone had, in fact, mentioned GM and the Yarnell Fire in an actual CLASS… or was Naumetz just talking about some ‘debate’ he might have overheard two other people having as a PRIVATE conversation at the banquet dinner?
In other words… was everyone getting bent out of shape just because of some ‘private’ conversation between two individuals at a banquet dinner… or because of something that was actually presented ( at least once? ) during one of the CLASSES…
…or was it BOTH things that were getting people ( or actually just ONE T-Shirt selling person? ) all ‘worked up’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The second answer was very solid and from the heart. The IC accepted total
>> ownership in NOT providing anyone at the Academy with a YH Fire and GMHS
>> briefing. He acknowledged the still-high emotions and the sensitivity of the issue(s).
>>
>> He thanked the anonymous person for bringing the issue up and the IC promised
>> to address the YH Fire and GMHS briefing in future AZ Wildfire Academies.
>> He also said he would talk to the AZ Wildfire Academy Coordinator about it.
>> The issue was resolved after their discussions with a good, satisfactory outcome.
Okay… here ( to me ) is the ‘scary’ part.
What you are saying is that people running the Academy acknowledged that there had been NO BRIEFING given to ANYONE at THIS year’s Academy about GM and the Yarnell Hill fire being ‘off limits’ for discussion at the Academy…
…but then these same people have now decided there, By God, WILL be ‘such a briefing’ at the NEXT Academy?
That’s the ‘scary’ part.
That there now ( apparently ) WILL be directives given ( in the future ) to instructors and/or guest speakers at this accredited Wildland Firefighting Teaching Academy to NOT discuss ( at all ) the greatest blunder in the history of Wildland Firefighting and how it might be prevented from happening AGAIN.
Astounding.
That’s the way I read it. I read it that AMANDA BENO MARSH was the running the AZ Wildfire Academy, which is astonishing except that it is not really, not if you have been paying attention the past three years.
Prescott and the surrounding area are filled with guilt ridden wildland firefighting overhead, civic leaders and politicians. All of these people know they contributed to the deaths of the crew by their own actions or lack thereof in the time leading up to those deaths and during the event itself.
This group has many people as members but certainly Todd Abel and Karen Fann are two of its leading participants of who practice self-flagellation on a regular basis. Todd Able because of what he did on the fire that helped kill the crew and Karen Fann because she was a leading state legislature that historically and habitually underfunds the Arizona State Forestry so low they have to fight wildfires the way they fought them before the Yarnell Hill Fire and ever since the Yarnell Hill Fire because nothing has changed. Almost everyone in Prescott because they know their penny pinching leaders set the crew up for failure…catastrophic failure.
Fighting wildfires, especially fighting wildfires as a hotshot is not for amateurs or habitual fuck ups, even if they have a long track record of good outcomes for prior bad decisions. That kind of thing has a tendency to catch up with people…eventually.
So…anyway, now that I am back from my Jeeping and ATVing tour in and around the center of the Jeeping universe Moab, Utah, I am going to do what I promised to do a long time ago just as soon as I get my rigs unloaded. I am going to publish the transcript from the hearing that Amanda Marsh cooked up just to punish Joy for being a sweet person who does nothing except try to help people in her own way.
Unfortunately for Joy, her own way really pissed off Mrs. Beno Marsh and Mrs. Pfingston while poor ole’ Mr. Pfingston go reamed out by his wife for being in cahoots with someone who Christian Fundamentalists consider to be a bad person because she thinks a little differently than they do.
There is no smoking gun in this transcript but you can gain some interesting insight into Amanda Beno Marshes mindset as you listen to her spew her venom as she tries to manipulate poor Judge Markam with her sob story of how she is the “widow of a national tragedy” and how everyone wanted a piece of the “Golden Boy”, her now departed husband. Although I did notice that she was able to replace him and pretty quickly in her life, unlike my mother did after her personal tragedy. Is that catty on my part and a cheap shot? Too bad, I can’t count Amanda Beno Marsh’s cheap shots, because she takes most of them from the shadows and while hiding behind others.
Anyway…Judge Markham, who I now have a tremendous amount a respect for unlike Mrs. Beno Marsh’s bitches (non-gender specific) Todd Able and Karsn Fann et al. Judge Markham really shoots her down and tells her in no uncertain terms that people ARE going to talk about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire for a very long time and there is nothing she or anyone else can do about it, which he is mostly right about, except in Arizonaistan. The rules are different there.
If you also read and listen to what Judge Markham says very carefully…he actually tells Mrs. Beno Marsh that the Golden Boy killed his crew. So…if Judge Markham is aware of this truth, that tells me almost everyone else in and around Prescott is as well. They just keep playing out their own little Kabuki Theater of the absurd for their own selfish purposes even though if they told the truth about the fire and what happened to the crew it might save the lives of some wildland firefighters in the future. How very sad these people are…and they are criminals as well.
Welcome back even though you were on while gone.
Your summery is point on.
Do I not remember that Eric Marsh created the Arizona wildfire Academy?
seems like that was posted some where——
I am hearing that every place outside Prescott is in fact having full blown discussions on Granit Mountain and the Yarnell Hill Fire. That’s all FS and BLM Crews and HS crews during their own annual refresher courses.
The State of Arizona seems to be in the Twilight Zone.
There can never be any lessons learned if you do not open your minds and challenge the reason for the Fatalities as we have here.
And yet they train and discuss all the other Fatality Fires in every training session
that covers Safety, Fire spread, weather and fuels.
It is to dam late to cover up what every body already knows live with it.
Thank you Bob. And yes, Marsh started that academy. FYI, we have moved over to here.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comments
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 22, 2016 at 6:08 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT gave us 436 ft. per hour to cut line in manzanita.
Just to be clear…
1. That ‘number’ for what is supposed to be ‘expected’ line-work production for a Type 1 Hotshot Crew in that fuel type was not coming from ‘me’. It comes directly from the official “NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide, PMS-210”. The same ‘guide’ referenced by Wildland Fire Associates in their ADOSH report regarding this terrible ( and avoidable ) workplace tragedy.
2. That official NWCG ‘line production rates’ guide does NOT actually have a specific ‘fuel type’ of ‘manzanita’ and/or ‘scrub oak’. That “436 ft. per hour” expected production rate was for the ‘fuel type’ they simply label as ‘Chaparral’. But that ‘fuel type’ is already the SLOWEST line-production rate in the entire NWCG table.
Once again ( just for good measure )…
** EXPECTED LINE BUILDING RATES…
The NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide, PMS-210…
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/products/pms210.pdf
From PDF page 121 of the
NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide…
——————————————————————————–
PRODUCTION TABLES
Sustained Line Production Rates of 20-Person Crews in Feet per Hour.
Number outside parentheses represents the expected rate of production.
Numbers in parentheses are possible low/high ranges for line production.
Fire Behavior Fuel Model, Type I Direct
Chaparral 436 ( 330-528 ) feet per hour.
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: Of all the listed ‘Fuel Models’ in the NWCG production
rate table, the ‘Chaparral Fuel Model’ already has the SLOWEST
expected rate of hourly line production.
——————————————————————————–
436 feet ( per hour ) equals 145.33 yards ( per hour ).
6 hours times 436 feet per hour = 2,616 feet ( 872.00 yards ).
5 hours times 436 feet per hour = 2,180 feet ( 726.66 yards ).
4 hours times 436 feet per hour = 1,744 feet ( 581.00 yards ).
3 hours times 436 feet per hour = 1,308 feet ( 436.00 yards ).
2 hours times 436 feet per hour = 872 feet ( 290.66 yards ).
1.75 hours times 436 feet per hour = 763 feet ( 254.33 yards ).
1.50 hours times 436 feet per hour = 654 feet ( 218 yards ).
1 hour times 436 feet per hour = 436 feet ( 145.33 yards ).
The entire Granite Mountain Crew was ‘in place’ at the anchor area from approximately 9:30 AM until their ‘tools up’ moment circa 3:30 PM. That is a total time of 6 (SIX) hours ‘working’ at that location ( minus an uknown period of time for ‘lunch’ ).
But the amount of ‘completed handline’ as reported by even the SAIT investigators, after extensive examination of the area, was only in the 145 to 250 yard range.
NOTE: According to hiker Sonny (Tex) Gilligan… it was actually only 145 yards, maximum.
At the ‘expected rate’ for line building in that fuel type, that represents only 1 to 1.75 hours of actual (productive) work on the part of ‘Granite Mountain’ on June 30, 2013.
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> I would guess that approximates the type of brush that was encountered in the
>> death basin above Helm’s. View Joy’s photos of brush we encountered that
>> day right about where the GMHS deployed. That translates to a bit over 145 yards.
>> That is almost exactly what you will measure from the two track to where they
>> ended their line that morning of June 30, 2013.
If it really was only a ‘maximum’ of about 145 yards of ‘line’ that was ever ‘built’ by Granite Mountain for the entire 6 ( SIX ) hours they were working in that location up there… then something was SERIOUSLY ‘wrong’ with their ability to ‘do productive work’ that day when they would lose their lives.
When Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown arrived at that location at exactly 11:55 AM ( along with BR Supt. Brian Frisby ) for that ‘face-to-face’ meeting with Marsh and Steed… Brown says he observed that they only had 100 yards of line built at that time. Brown used the word ‘secured line’, meaning ‘finished line’ with nothing else needing to be done.
That means that in the next 3 and 1/2 hours ( THREE and ONE HALF hours ), that group of 19 (supposedly) elite Type 1 Hotshots was only able to ‘build’ another lousy 45 yards of ‘line’ up there.
Jesse Steed gave the ‘tools up’ order right around 3:30 PM, and just after the weather report from Byron Kimball went out over the radio regarding the approaching “30-40 miles per hour outflow winds” and the expected “fireline direction REVERSAL”.
So minus whatever time they might have taken for lunch following that ‘face-to-face’ meeting between Frisby / Brown / Marsh / Steed… that means they continued ‘working’ on that assignment UNTIL 3:30 PM… but were only able to accomplish 45 yards of line for an entire afternoon’s work by 19 men.
That literally qualifies as just sort of ‘piddling around’ and/or ‘sandbagging it’ for 3 and 1/2 hours.
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> I do believe one person can navigate much faster than 18 and we proved that with Joy and I.
One of the things that Holly Neill was ‘excited about’ when she ‘thought’ she had discovered proof that Eric Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch was that, to her, it ALSO represented ‘proof’ that Eric Marsh had definitely ‘scouted’ and ‘timed’ that route… and that people should stop saying there was never any ‘scouting’ of the ‘escape route’ done.
Well… that was just part of Ms. Neill’s continuing agenda to try and find evidence that would ‘exonerate’ Marsh and Steed and Granite Mountain from any accusations of not doing the things they were SUPPOSED to do.
What Ms. Neill has always failed to realize is that even the ‘evidence’ that she was so excited about ‘finding’ that she contacted ADOSH directly to try and get them to ‘ammend’ their findings was, itself, “another can of worms”.
NOTE: Ms. Neill communicated extensively with ADOSH about this… and they DID ‘examine’ all of the ‘new evidence’ she was presenting to them… but they politely informed her they would NOT be ‘amending’ anything. Their findings of workplace negligence and imposition of maximum penalties was going to ‘stand pat’.
After repeatedly LYING ( by ommission ) to every official investigator… Brendan McDonough finally admitted to at least knowing that Eric Marsh was, in fact, out AHEAD of Jesse Steed and the crew that day… supposedly ‘scouting’ the route he would eventually ORDER them to take out of the ‘safe black’ ( and to their deaths ).
But as for the TIMING… there is still no evidence that Eric Marsh ever bothered to TIME anything.
Wherever Eric Marsh was out AHEAD of Steed and the Crew when he gave Steed that ORDER to ‘bring those men down here’… he still might have been totally misunderstanding that whatever ‘feel’ HE had for how long it would take was totally based on just HIS own ‘descent’ and how long it took HIM to get to wherever he was prior to the deployment.
Marsh might have totally ‘blown it’ on the TIMING by not realizing that whatever time he was able to make through that explosive, fuel-filled obstable course was going to bear no resemblance to how long it would take 19 other men ( with saws and packs ) to navigate the same ‘obstacle course’ while trying to all remain in SINGLE FILE.
I understand that Holly Neill WAS ‘excited’ when she was one of the first people to be able to ‘listen’ to some of those Panebaker Air Study videos… and that she thought she was hearing ‘new evidence’ that Eric Marsh DID ‘scout the escape route’ and that people should stop saying he didn’t…
…but I’m not sure, even now, after McDonough CONFIRMING that Eric Marsh WAS ‘out ahead’ of them… that Ms. Neill realizes that has just RAISED far more ‘disturbing’ questions than it has answered.
And here’s just ONE of those ‘disturbing questions’…
If Eric Marsh himself really was out ‘ahead’ of those poor men… and in any kind of ‘position’ to act as their ‘forward lookout’ and WARN them of ANY pending danger… then why are they all DEAD?
And just ONE more of the ‘disturbing questions’…
Eric Marsh is heard, himself, saying over the radio ( at exactly 4:13 PM ) that Granite Mountain was (quote) “makin’ their way out the escape route from this MORNING”.
So that means Marsh was trying to say that they KNEW ( since that morning ) that this ‘risky route’ they were now traveling was (supposedly) their ‘designated escape route’.
But it was never ‘scouted’ prior to these now-critical moments… even though they had ALL DAY to do that.
The TIME that was WASTED by Eric Marsh going out ahead of the Steed and the Crew ( by himself ) to (supposedly) “scout the escape route” at that LATE hour in the day… while Steed and the Crew had to sit back at the anchor point just waiting to hear from him…
…was the time they needed to STAY ALIVE that day.
If Steed and the Crew had even only ‘set out’ from the safe black shortly after the ‘tools up’ moment… and had only just covered the absolute CLEAR part of that two-track heading south from the anchor point ( instead of just sitting around waiting to hear the results of Marsh’s ‘scouting mission’ )… they would all be alive today.
The TIME they wasted waiting for the RESULTS of that “too late in the day” scouting mission by Marsh is the ‘missing TIME’ that actually KILLED them all.
Ok thanks WTKTT. There might indeed been sufficient time to escape if they had headed down earlier. The delay caught them but there was another factor that could have cut them off. By my estimation from when we left we should have been at least an hour or more ahead in case in my mind the fire reversed direction. Yet when we got to Foothills Lane where my car was parked there was only ten minutes or so that we had edge on it. We were on a well maintained gravel road and for about a mile so no hindrance except the heat, yet that fire was already licking at the NW edge of Glen Isla with people evacuating and smoke coming our way. I said no way that fire could be that close and of course the streets slowed its advance while embers flying through the air were picking and choosing patches of growth between streets and igniting houses. I have since come to conclude that the back burn we saw on video along Shrine road was a factor of that fire getting to the Helms so quickly when winds reversed. But as Bob says without the actual footage it is no evidence even though both Joy and I saw it and even went to the area for a visit to make sure it was the rock wall that we were seeing that identified the video. There was so much confusion as related to us by a deputy that anything could happen.
I was just watching the evacuation from Viet Nam when Saigon was being taken by the North Vietnamese. The ambassador was so disconnected that he did not want to believe that things were out of hand. Out of four plans to evacuate they had to go to the last and poorest plan of using copters for evacuation. The man who could have saved thousands more lives failed despite all good evidence from generals and others that the Viet Cong were closing in on Saigon. Poor planning on that one as was the Yarnell Fire. Odd I talk about this and when Joy wrote up a name of Charlie for me I told her that was a word for the Viet Cong–but many years back. I had a dog named Charlie and Charlie Brown e-mail she made up went well with me anyway.
So much is still unsaid on the Yarnell Fire. We miss too much from BR people being quiet like Donut. But there were also others on this fire that have kept clammed up. It seems they do not realize the importance of their testimony toward saving future lives, huge sums of tax payer money, and getting the story straight so that all affected by this tragedy have what they deserve–the straight truth.
I have wondered why the President himself did not step in and order an FBI check on the deaths of 19 men. It would only be the right thing to do to have more investigators that have no agenda to come in and see why so much evidence has not been investigated. It is said to me that the reason is this fire started on State Lands, yet it also burned 3% federal land and the fact that these men more than once worked out of state would seem to over ride any concern for unbiased investigators.
Gary is going to answer that one–I hope.
FWIW… consider this…
All FIVE of the firefighters who would be the first ones to ‘arrive’ at the deployment site and confirm the ‘fatalities’… were FEDERAL EMPLOYEES.
Jason Clawson – USFS employee – Prescott National Forest
Aaron Hulburd – USFS employee – Prescott National Forest.
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell – USFS employee – Prescott National Forest
Brian Frisby – USFS employee – Blue Ridge Hotshots
Trueheart Brown – USFS employee – Blue Ridge Hotshots
FEDERAL employee Jason Clawson would then be the first one to report over the radio that he was standing there looking at 19 fatalities.
FEDERAL employee Aaron Hulburd would eventually be discovered to have shot 21 ( TWENTY ONE ) separate videos that day, including the one that captured the final radio traffic from GM.
FEDERAL employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell was the one who was the ‘Final Evaluator’ and ‘final signer’ of Jesse Steeds actual STCR ‘taskbook’.
FEDERAL employee ‘Aaron Hulburd’ was the one who was the ‘Final Evaluator’ and the ‘final signer’ of Eric Marsh’s actual DIVS ‘taskbook’.
That’s a whole lot of ‘FEDERAL’ going on.
Sonny said:
” I said no way that fire could be that close and of course the streets slowed its advance while embers flying through the air were picking and choosing patches of growth between streets and igniting houses. I have since come to conclude that the back burn we saw on video along Shrine road was a factor of that fire getting to the Helms so quickly when winds reversed.”
I want to know if it is possible that GM calculated that they had time to make it to the Helm’s ranch -even though it was a high risk choice to travel through the manzainita- but became trapped by the firing operation that Sonny has mentioned numerous times. Is it POSSIBLE?
Woodsman
Sonny even though Yarnell Fire burned Federal land 3% or what ever it was a State Fire. based on start and under co-op agreements.
The State took over the initial responsibility.
If the Fire had burned into Federal land then it could have gone a couple of ways. The Federal land manager could have taken the fire over or they could have separated it into two separate teams managing both segments
under a Interagency agreement.
This fire was no large enough for that and the State had the predominate responsibility. Thus it was a State Fire.
On the question of all the Federal employees/overhead on the fire that is very common. When teams are called in they have several different make ups because of the National Interagency Fire Center that puts together teams Nation wide. A mixture of Federal, State, county Overhead under the National Interagency Management system NIMS.
Also The Fire was also under Co-op assistance (closes forces)
that would have included the Prescott NF and the Local BLM along with locale City and County Fire resources the State had available to them.
You had two separate teams called in coming and going with all kinds of different make ups.
This was a State Fire and Granit Mountain was a Contract crew not a Federal crew They were a certified Type 1 crew out of a City Fire department. while they were certified by the NIFC that did not make them a Federal crew. There are many Type2 crews under the same status CONTRACT CREWS.
The only way the Federal Government would have been in the Investigation is if this had been a Federal crew or Federal employees involved in the Fatalities. on a State Fire.
Or theses same types of crews (Contract) would have been on a Federal Fire then they would have been working for the Government as contract hires. Then the Government would have been responsible.
It is all worked out in the National Co-op Agreements.
Woodsman
From the time laps info on Fire spread it dose not look like any main head of fire came from the Shrine area but from the Main fire front burning towards the south. when that wind hit it went into two or three seperiate heads when it jumped the Tractor push that ran up to the old grader. One head took the area above the old grader where there was only a 4 track to the burn. the other took off from a Spot or a jump over the Cat push the third I believe was another spot fire lower on the flat but not from the Shrine area.
The shrine area was within the housing area and if there was any firing out it was probably not of much use to stop any thing as there was to much spotting going on thru the structure area. The winds at this point were 20 to 40 MPH from the NNW.
I copy. Thanks Bob.
Woodsman
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 23, 2016 at 8:34 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The only way the Federal Government would have
>> been in the Investigation is if this had been a Federal
>> crew or Federal employees involved in the Fatalities.
The “Federal Government” was VERY MUCH ‘in the investigation’.
Mike Dudley was a USFS high-mucky-muck… and he was calling the shots.
The actual ‘narrative’ was mostly coming from John Phipps, head of the FEDERAL USFS Rocky Mountain Research Center. He and his little sidekick John Pupulidy were ‘feeding’ the narrative to Mike Dudley.
There were many, many OTHER “Federal Level” people on the SAIT investigation team.
The only thing that was NOT happening on the Federal level was that OIG trip-wire for an independent investigation by THAT “Federal Level” agency.
A little clearer WTKTT
That was a requested team BY THE ARIZONA STATE FIRE.
I was talking of the death investigation by and for a Federal Fatality.
And yes the OIG would have been involved if the Fatalities had been Federal even on a State fire.
Do not get confused with the Team investigation. These teams mainly the leaders are set up for all Fire Fatality investigations some already trained and available like the one Arizona got. They as well come from The National Interagency Fire Center by Order or request. More of the co-op thing.
In Arizona’s case they Got ADOSH. after the team.
In a federal case they would get OSHA and OIG after the team.
The SAIT Teams are sent on request to the Agency in need.
And always consist of a mixture of organizations.
The SAIT is paid by the ordering agency in this case Arizona Fire under the Yarnell hill Charge code, just like the FF were ordered.
The investigation was in and for the state of Arizona. Not in and for the FS or BLM.
It is confusing if you only look at the assigned leaders on the SAIT and where they are from rather than looking at a team set up Trained and ready to respond as a SAIT. You can look at the fires this last year where these teams responded.
I hope that helps again it is a Agreed to Co-op written and signed and reviewed yearly with each State and the Government There are several of these different agreements within the National Fire organizations In each State.
This is all intertwined with the ICS program.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 23, 2016 at 12:13 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A little clearer WTKTT
>>
>> That was a requested team BY THE
>> ARIZONA STATE FIRE.
>>
>> I was talking of the death investigation by
>> and for a Federal Fatality.
I know exactly what you were talking about.
You were pointing out that IF that had been a ‘Federal Hotshots’ team burned to death on the floor of that canyon… then the “FEDS” would have been “involved” in the investigations.
I was pointing out to YOU that from a sheer “Who was doing the investigating” perspective… there was PLENTY of “FEDERAL” involvement just based on how many FEDERAL employees really WERE “involved in the investigation”… from Dudley to Phipps to every one of the other FEDERAL EMPLOYEES on that SAIT.
And regardless of whether they were ‘contracted’ by Arizona Forestry or not… Dudley ended up following the FEDERAL GUIDELINES for conducting the investigation.
So your statement that there was “no Federal involvement in the investigation(s)” that WERE conducted is fundamentally FALSE.
The FEDS ( USFS employees ) were “all over it”.
Soup to nuts.
You miss the simple fact that the guide lines were developed by all agencies not just Federal.
The Guidelines are signed off by all agencies who are directly connected to and part of the NIFC.
It is not just a federal organization There are state as well as federal managers who have an equal say in the organization, rules, direction and management.
Again the investigation was not federally mandated
Just because some of the overhead on the SAIT were Federal dose not make it a Federal sanctioned Investigation.
It was a equally accepted organization run according to the agreement of all parties. The make up was not hand picked to be Federal or State but to provide a cadre of trained people from where ever they worked that had been trained in this very difficult investigation following the direction of the ICS/NIFC organization. They are tasked with not finding individual fault —which I disagree with— but that is the new norm to keep people from lawsuits.
It is not the SAIT that represents any State or Federal investigation. They are there to investigate the Fire Fatalities and Cause. Other agencies investigate the legal aspects LIKE ADOS or OSHA or OIG.
Sonny was asking Why The FBI or The President were not involved. The responsibility was with the STATE and The Governor for this State Fire.
.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 23, 2016 at 4:54 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Sonny was asking Why The FBI
>> or The President were not involved.
>> The responsibility was with the
>> STATE and The Governor for this
>> State Fire.
Yes. That IS, in fact, the ‘answer’ to Sonny’s question.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Just because some of the overhead
>> on the SAIT were Federal dose not
>> make it a Federal sanctioned
>> Investigation.
Again… YES… but here’s your same logic right back atcha with regards to MY ‘point’…
Just because this was not a Federally ‘sanctioned’ investigation doesn’t mean there wasn’t a heavy level of ‘Federal’ involvement in the ‘investigation’.
There WAS.
Now you are playing word games.
If you are saying there were a lot of Federal employees on the SAIT that may be true.
Again it was not a Federal Investigation.
Had lets say a heavily loaded State team SAIT been on
So under that assumption a Federal fire with a SAIT team with State appointed people would then be a heavily loaded State investigation.
My point being The teams SAIT are put together based on availability of team members. so the make up is never the same based on Time Location Training and Availability.
So I am done with the word games. Take about 6 months and learn about the NIFC organization and what it dose besides send people to fires through out the Country and to other Country’s..
Reply to Woodsman post on March 23, 2016 at 6:16 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I want to know if it is possible that GM calculated that
>> they had time to make it to the Helm’s ranch -even
>> though it was a high risk choice to travel through the
>> manzainita- but became trapped by the firing operation
>> that Sonny has mentioned numerous times. Is it POSSIBLE?
In a word… NO.
I know that Sonny has been mentioning this ‘Shrine Road burnout’ a lot lately… and as anyone who has been following along here knows… I am as open to any/all theories about what happened that day as anyone on the planet… but this has all been covered at length in other ‘Chapters’ and there is still ( currently ) absolutely NO EVIDENCE that anyone ever attempted or initiated ANY kind of manual ‘burn out’ ANYWHERE near the Shrine Road that day.
Especially not any official fire personnel that would have had FIRA or FIRB ratings and using actual ‘drip torches’.
TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel testified to ADOSH that at one point, as they were evacuating the Youth Camp, some consideration was given to ‘lighting up’ that area as they left… but that did NOT happen.
The only manual ‘burnouts’ known to have been initiated that afternoon by any official fire personnel were on the EAST side of Highway 89 and over near the Ranch House Restaurant… to try and protect some structures over there AFTER the fire had already ‘spotted’ over Highway 89. And yes… there are some ‘rock walls’ over in that area as well.
The following video shows pretty clearly that the fireline that would eventually kill Granite Mountain was pretty much the exact same ‘western’ component of the fire that they were sitting there watching with their own eyes ( and taking pictures of ) circa 3:50 PM at that ‘rest spot’. It continually picked up speed in a DUE SOUTH direction the entire time they were hiking south towards the box canyon ( and they should have been able to see this themselves the whole time ).
It swept AROUND those two ‘mounds’ out in the middle bowl that we have been calling ( for lack of any better names ) “Little Round Top” and “Big Round Top”… and then it headed directly for the mouth of the box canyon. The winds and the ‘chimney effect’ helped it make a ‘left turn’ and spread due west in the canyon towards the deployment site.
The following video was developed from that ‘raw footage’ taken by ABC15 Helicopter ‘Air15’ as it was over the Yarnell Fire for a 50 minute period on June 30, 2013 from 3:50 PM to 4:40 PM.
Helicopter Air15 ( Five Hotel Delta ) called Thomas French on the Air-To-Air channel to say they were ‘done filming’ and leaving the area DURING the actual MAYDAY radio call sequence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSYpnPMfPmc
When the video above starts… you can see that ‘western part’ of the fireline that was going to eventually kill Granite Mountain in the upper right corner of the video. At the time this video was taken… it was ALREADY ‘flowing around’ the ‘Little Round Top” and “Big Round Top” mounds out in the middle bowl… and heading straight for the mouth of the box canyon.
WTKTT,
The work you did on that video is incredible. That really, really helps! Thank you for doing that!!!
Woodsman
Sonny,
I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but since you asked…I have not heard of any evidence that any federal crime was committed on the Yarnell Hill Fire or in it’s aftermath.
And besides that, the FBI would be one of the last agencies I would ask to investigate that fire or it’s aftermath even if there were violations of federal law. Training and experience in highly specialized areas matter.
And I never knew, or heard of any FBI agent in all of my years of service who would have the slightest idea where to even begin investigating the YHF or what has happened since, much less be able to conduct a thorough, competent, and complete investigation.
Because you have participated here for almost three years, YOU would do a better job of investigating this mess than any FBI agent I ever worked with would. So…
And just to help you wrap your head around this fact, perhaps a brief tutorial in Criminal Justice 101 is in order. Contrary to what many believe, the greatest and broadest law enforcement powers do no reside with the federal government…even the FBI. The most power rests with the county sheriff’s office and at the state and levels, but mostly with the sheriff’s office.
That is the way our founding fathers wanted it and that is how they designed the system to work This was due to an overwhelming fear of having too much power in the hands of the federal government because of their bad experiences with the Crown of England. Our founding fathers specifically did not want a national police force.
Now…that cross-dressing gay hating homophobic who was gay…J. Edgar Hoover did a lot to undermine that system with his black books and black mails of every President he theoretically served, not to mention everyone who had any power on Capitol Hill, but even he couldn’t completely override the U.S. Constitution.
Most things are not a violation of federal law…murder for example, except in some cases that are associated with a terrorist attack, but most crimes are not violations of federal law. Furthermore, even for those crimes that do violate federal law, the authority to investigate those crimes and the corresponding jurisdiction are highly compartmentalized among a wide variety of federal agencies.
The last time I heard, there are more than 80 federal agencies who are partners for training purposes at FLETC and who employ federal special agents to investigate federal crimes that the U.S. Congress “assigned” specifically to those agencies by federal law .
For example, the DEA investigates violations of the controlled substance act, postal inspectors investigate violations of the U.S. mail and Post Offices, the Bureau of ATF and now they added E for explosives investigate violations of federal firearms and explosives laws…and bootleggers, HUD special agents investigate fraud etc. in federal housing, the Secret Service protects the President etc and to give them something else to do to keep them busy in off year elections…counterfeiting. I could go on and on but why? You probably get the picture.
If you are going to ask for someone at the federal level to investigate the YHF you should be looking at special agents who have special training and backgrounds from the USDA-Forest Service or USDI-BLM…not the FBI. The FBI couldn’t find their asses with both hands even if all of the evidence was shoved up…where the sun don’t shine.
Oh…and one more thing. The FBI doesn’t have anywhere near enough resources to get involved in something like the YHF. More than 99 out of every 100 bank robberies are not even investigated by the FBI or prosecuted by the U.S. Attorneys Office even though that is their “thing” ever since that cross dressing homophobic gay hating gay person by the name of J. Edgar Hoover made the FBI what is is by chasing the tommy gun wielding bank robbers back in the day because that is where all of the press was and the public’s attention was focused.
Ever since 9/11, every special agent for the FBI has been up on a wire or doing manned surveillance of terrorist cells in this country trying to stop the next big one…which is coming any time now. So I hope they have finally got their shit together after failing to connect the dots right before 9/11 or things are going to get European Union like right here in our own back yard…and nobody will be thinking about the YHF. Hardly ANYBODY cares or thinks about the YHF anymore.
You would know better than I Gary. I thought with their ways of uncovering corruption and unbiased methods they might be the best in something like this. It is obvious the state gave this little consideration except to glorify a failed wild fire fighting effort that led to much tragedy.
I do believe that there are people very capable including you and so many others that are eager to get to the bottom of this that should be paid and encouraged to expose what was left undone. WTKTT is correct is saying there is too much at stake here in this historic tragic event that reaches beyond the deaths of 19 GMHS. It touches the very soul of America and something that necessitates the exposition of all its causes of failure.
One thing is I live here and have lived through this tragedy. I see its effects and as well have felt them as have the people in this town and Prescott where these men originated. We do not need a repeat–and truth will deny that repeat. Gary if I had my druthers it would be you heading the investigation, WTKTT right behind you with all the other, especially RTS, Bob Powers, Dr. Ted Putnam, John Dougherty, and the likes to do what would be done properly. I know you and others here have worked to let no stone be overturned–you have kept your men alive and you are concerned how a tragedy could have been avoided and how the information learned from this debacle can be remedied because all of us do not ever want to have this type so called incident repeated. Lives, homes, and money that could have been used toward improving the fire fighting community have been squandered because of what happened here.
The people on this site have challenged the cover up without fear. Sometimes I want to believe it is all a futile effort–the boat will go on with smooth waters the fire gods want despite the search for truth. But then I am reminded you are the old fire gods–you see the truth and want it out there. That is the right thing–and for my own thoughts, what the hell do I know being just an old miner? I stand corrected where I am wrong.
And for clarification, most FBI special agents do a great job most of the time investigating most of the things they are trained to investigate. So when I said they couldn’t find their asses with both hands it was in reference to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And when I said they failed to connect the dots shortly before 9/11 I was referring specifically to the FBI special agent out of the Phoenix office who wrote the memo to the their Washington Office that said, more or less;
“HEY! FYI…we have some Middle Eastern Types from Saudi Arabia here at Embry Riddle, you know, from the place where they have all of the Madrases that train all of the young people to want to destroy our way of life while they fund Islamic Terrorists all around the world with their oil money, well…anyway, these guys ONLY WANT TO KNOW HOW TO FLY THE PLANE AND STEER IT ONCE IT IS IN THE AIR! They never show up for class when they are talking about LANDING the fucking planes…so, HEADS UP!”
I keep pointing to the YAVAPAI COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE. Sheriff SCOTT MASCHER who is the CHIEF Law Enforcement Officer for all of Yavapai County because that is the way our founding fathers wanted it.
And unlike in the movies, when the FBI special agents show up in his county, they kiss his ass. And he usually puts up with them (or any other federal types) because they have access to a lot of funding and resources he doesn’t…if he wants those resources and he usually doesn’t, so he tells them (and all other federal types) to fuck off.
New Mexico Sheriffs and the New Mexico State Police mostly work closely with federal types by giving them cross delegations (I was cross certified as a New Mexico State Police Officer and in several counties in addition to half a dozen other cross delegations including one as a U.S Marshall and with the DEA in addition to several other federal agencies).
BUT Sheriffs in the Republic of Arizona consider it a badge of honor and a show of strength and how effective they can be by telling as many federal types to fuck off as much as possible.
The problem always has been and always will be…Sheriffs Offices don’t know shit from Shinola about “birthin’ no babies” (Gone With The Wind) when it comes to investigating wildfires and so they turned EVERYTHING, just like they always have done, everywhere…over to the SAIT or their equivalent.
The Arizona State Forester and the Chief of the U.S. Forest Service KNEW they would do that because they always do, and that is what they were counting on and they weren’t disappointed.
And as far as the Yavapai Sheriffs Office goes, they and the citizens of Yavapai County and the Republic of Arizona think everything pertaining to the investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire and its aftermath went just FINE…so there is NO PROBLEM except for a few conspiracy theory nut jobs who don’t have anything else better to do except blog here on this thread, but they (WE) don’t matter, we lost a long time ago and Amanda Marsh is in control According to almost everyone in Yavapai County YOU are the problem not the SAIT. .
So,,,heads up.
Strange as it may seem when Joy was adamant to stay on that two track and we were actually about to part ways since she had her mind made up to go what I saw as even a more difficult path than the GMHS down toward the SE and to Helms. I really think she would have waited and unknowingly been suddenly joined by the GMHS since she was parked on the two track where they went down. I had topped the Weavers and it came to my mind that if I leave her and that fire reverses and she is caught in her attempt to get out, old Sonny would likely charged with murder. It was a thought in my mind and even if I were not I would be wearing a guilt trip the rest of my life. She would have had some beautiful close
ups of the fire if her camera had survived.
Sometimes I wonder of all the estimations of so many men’s minds clouded up with human factors. I wonder why my mind was not at all clouded at what I was seeing and what could happen if you went down that mountain into that manzanita trap. I think because I was not under any obligation to risk my life. But then I think there are certain people that can mesmerize people. Not all are hypnotizable–I have tried to be but never felt the hypnotic effect the practiced hypnosis professional believed he had. Hitler had a bunch mesmerized and I wonder if Trump has that same effect on certain people. I see Hillary as one to put out a carrot while Trump is a thumper. Maybe Gary has it right about the Sheep–can’t think on their own and are utterly dependent upon the Shepard and sheep dog for their lives.
When it comes down to it most Americans have decent intelligence, but then most are programmed. Hell I have enough institutionalization from years of education it is a wonder I have any mind at all that is my own. Is this Fireman’s Academy something again that is programming people to think on tunnel vision and inside a fucking box so they have no mind of their own? I have not been there but any University I have ever attended and there are at least three I can think of I generally questioned just about everything told to me which does not make you so popular–in fact cost me a Master’s in Bull Shit in one. But I would lay odds that every one of those professors that did not like differing opinion would have followed Marsh right down there into that trap. Some of those I had might have been a better influence had they been able to think out of the box a bit.
Whatever SOnny…have your fun..
wwtktt said: What Ms. Neill has always failed to realize is that even the ‘evidence’ that she was so excited about ‘finding’ that she contacted ADOSH directly to try and get them to ‘ammend’ their findings was, itself, “another can of worms”.
MY REPLY: Brett Steurer stated to Holly and Joy when we presented new concrete evidence that ADOSH cannot reopen the case- they had ONE shot at it, and the case must be submitted within the first six months. However Brett was one of the men on the task to investigate it and I won’t talk about what was said on hike due to the sensitivity of it but Brett will never forget this case and so if you have new evidence he would like to see it because he is willing to listen to any information to figure out this all….this personally weighs heavy on his heart like so many of us and also we all have put a lot of time and effort maybe a few ulcers so officially he cannot request or take any new information or interviews but Brett is a very good man and he did in the upmost professional manner conduct himself SPOT ON…so to answer you WWTKTT…no can of worms can happen with ADOSH
EVEN if Donut or missing elements came forward because the Arizona Forester case IS closed.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 22, 2016 at 7:51 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Brett Steurer stated to Holly and Joy when we presented new
>> concrete evidence that ADOSH cannot reopen the case- they
>> had ONE shot at it, and the case must be submitted within
>> the first six months.
Holly Neill did not (initially) contact Brett Steurer.
Holly Neill went ‘right to the top’ and FIRST contacted ADOSH investigation lead Marshall Krotenberg on Monday, January 6, 2014.
She SIGNED her initial email to Krotenberg as “A FAN of GMIHC”.
Holly Neill did not KNOW whether she would be able to cause ADOSH to ‘amend’ or ‘rewrite’ their ‘report’… but that is exactly what she WANTED them to do.
She was telling ADOSH directly that she felt her ‘new evidence’ would (quote) “CORRECT the ERRORS” in their original report ( with regards to Eric Marsh and GM )… and that ‘changing’ and/or ‘amending’ their report would ( in Holly Neill’s own words ) “CORRECT previous assumptions” and “leave a more positive and accurate legacy” for GM and the family members.
There has never been any doubt what Holly Neill’s real AGENDA is.
Here’s that exact email exchange that took place between Holly Neill and ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg… from the first email where she was trying to hide her identity and signed it as just “A FAN of GMIHC”, to the point where they were allowing her to ‘submit’ her ‘new evidence” and she was finally ‘signing’ the emails with her real name…
/ ADOSH / Dropbox / Notes and Emails / Krotenberg / N9589 January 2014.pdf
Holly Neil’s original email to ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg…
PDF page 2 ( of 11 pages )
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 7:18 PM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: question about GMIHC
Hello Marshall,
I have been researching the Yarnell Hill Fire. I am a retired wildland firefighter.
I need to ask you a question. If evidence exists that would correct the errors reportedly made by Marsh/GMIHC would you be interested in knowing about it?
What would be the outcome to this?
Would you be able to print an addendum to the report to add clarity and additional details to the original report?
The goal would be to give the Families and the WFF community the TRUTH so that we can all move forward, heal and apply lessons learned that are clearly based on the actual circumstances.
At this point I would like to know if an addendum is even possible, especially considering the litigation climate? Or is your report considered complete and closed and unable to be revised?
Please advise on the ADOSH position on this kind of thing and if you would be open to talking with me.
Thank you, a fan of GMIHC
————————————————————————-
NOTE: The very next morning, Marshall Krotenberg replied…
————————————————————————-
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP)
To: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: question about GMIHC
Can you call me to discuss further?
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
direct: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 40 minutes later, Holly Neil replied to Marshall Krotenberg…
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 10:30 AM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: question about GMIHC
Hey, Will you be your office this afternoon? I can call you after 2pm MTN
time or set up a convenient time for you?
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 10 minutes later… Krotenberg responded to Neill…
————————————————————————-
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP)
To: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: question about GMIHC
How about 4:00 pm MST today?
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
direct: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 1 hour and 13 minutes later, Neill responded to Krotenberg…
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 11:53 AM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: question about GMIHC
OK, I’ll call you at 4pm, my area code is 505 for your caller ID.
————————————————————————-
NOTE: Holly Neill made that 4:00 PM phone call to Marshall Krotenberg and they talked for 2 hours. The next morning… she sent Marshall this next email. She was still sending the email using ‘From: Gm Ihc’ but now, instead of signing the text body of her emails with just ‘A fan of GMIHC’, she is now signing it using her real first name ( Holly )…
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 10:17 AM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: GM audio
Hi Marshall,
I contacted Dan O’Brien last night and sent him the audio file and transcript.
He is going to review it with Barry and Dave and go from there.
I enjoyed our 2 hour talk yesterday.
Thanks, Holly
————————————————————————-
NOTE: Within less than 60 seconds… Marshall Krotenberg replied to Holly Neil…
————————————————————————-
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP)
To: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Wed, Jan 8, 2014 10:17 am
Subject: RE: GM audio
Got it, thanks. I just got off the phone with Dan.
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
direct: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 3 hours and 16 minutes later, Holly Neill replied again to Marshall Krotenberg and is now attaching her own ‘analysis’ of the audio recordings….
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 1:33 PM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: GM audio
Attachments: Audio Results.docx
Marshall,
Here is an analysys I put together of some possible implications,
in attachment doc. Something to think about…
Best to you… Holly\
————————————————————————-
One of Holly Neill’s ‘analysis’ document sent to ADOSH…
————————————————————————-
To: WFA
From: Holly Neill
01-07-2013
The audio file I am sending is the cleaned, audio only version.
From _README file: …the time stamp on the video ( 16162 ) is the
end time of the video, not the beginning. Video length 3:31
The original Video/audio is from: SAIT Investigation Record \ F-PhotosAndVideos \
A05-20130630AerialFirefightingStudyPhotosVideos
Video: 20130630-16162-O-VLAT-split-1-E-P
Start at 00:41: Background conversation:
First voice: Division Alpha… (unclear on the next word.. Todd? OPS? Ah?)… what’s your status ( pronounced stay-tus ) right now?
Marsh: Ah the guys, ah Granite is making their way down—our escape route from this morning. It’s ah, it’s South… Mid slope, cut vertical.
A Different Voice: Copy. Working their (our?) way down into the structures.
First Voice Again: …on the escape route with Granite Mountain right now?
Marsh: Nah, I’m at the house where we’re gonna jump out at.
I have used the above audio file to make some comparisons to the SAIR and WFA reports to illustrate some of the possible implications of this audio. Changes would need to be made to add this additional information and correct previous assumptions. I believe this will lead to leaving a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC; providing more clarity for their families, and adding a better understanding of possible lessons the entire WFF community can learn.
Holly Neill.
————————————————————————-
NOTE: The ‘more positive and accurate’ legacy that Holly Neill is referring to in her own email above is because she believed what she was hearing in the Panebaker audio was PROOF that Eric Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch… which she felt would also represent PROOF that like a good little Hotshot… Eric Marsh had ‘scouted the escape route’… and that people should STOP saying he did NOT.
See above.
This is exactly what I was saying about Ms. Neill not seeming to realize that even if she was RIGHT… any real PROOF that Eric Marsh might have been out ahead of those men was going to RAISE many more ‘disturbing’ questions than it would answer.
Just proving that Eric was a ‘good little hotshot’ and was out ‘scouting the escape route’ was NOT going to AUTOMATICALLY lead ( as Ms. Neill seemed to think ) to a “more positive and accurate’ legacy” for GM.
On the contrary.
I do not support the new evidence and I had an expert analyze the audio and I trust my source and I already said this to Holly and on Gabberts page…just need more for me…to state legacy and truth and not going here on this topic but people who know my feelings on topic….
Joy… the ‘audio’ doesn’t matter anymore.
Brendan McDonough has already testified ( in public ) that Eric Marsh WAS ‘out ahead’ of Jesse Steed and the crew that day.
Brendan still knows much more… but at least he HAS finally revealed that fact.
And all that does is ( as I knew it would ) RAISE even more ‘disturbing’ questions than it ANSWERS.
I will not talk on this topic but I will say there has to be more than the audio…maybe Eric talked to a friend or something and that person communicated with Holly or John…that makes more sense to me.
reason why Eric’s cell phone is so crucially important
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
March 22, 2016 at 9:00 pm
>> Joy A. Collura
>>
>> I will not talk on this topic but I will say there has
>> to be more than the audio…
There IS ‘more’, Joy.
Brendan McDonough has already rendered that ‘audio’ evidence moot and has TESTIFIED ( in PUBLIC, via Bill Gabbert ) that Eric Marsh WAS ‘out ahead’ of Jesse Steed and the crew that afternoon.
Are you saying you still don’t trust what McDonough testified to over at ‘Wildfire Today’?
The hikers saw exactly what donut saw…marsh scouting… My concern is donut has a book opportunity and he opts to take it where he did…there are people who partied with donut that we hiked and or spent time with and donut is very careful in his wording publicly
Soooo… I take that to mean your answer to the question I just asked you is… YES?
You do NOT believe that McDonough is ‘telling the truth’ when he says he heard ( over that GM intra-crew radio ferquency ) that Marsh was, in fact, going to “scout ahead” towards the Boulder Springs Ranch that afternoon?
It’s okay if you don’t ( believe him ).
I’m just trying to discern what you are saying.
believe there is more than that tidbit and he only is offering out just that.
Sonny just woke me to put up his fence and I was in an interactive dream with Grant n
Marcia’s son Grant and Donut. It was a really great dream that maybe one day I can share to Donut because it was interactive n informative so I do think there is more than just that piece of information so he either shares it all or I am not paying Donut much mind on tidbits.
Joy remember where Marsh phone is now
It is gone thrown in the trash by Amanda after she got it back from the Autopsy.
So any evidence on there is now long gone.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
March 23, 2016 at 7:26 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> believe there is more than that tidbit
>> and he only is offering out just that.
Same here. There’s no doubt that Brendan does “know more”… as well as those 3 other Blue Ridge Hotshtos who were moving the other GM vehicles and listening to the same GM intra-crew radio traffic that Brendan was.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I do think there is more than just
>> that piece of information so he either
>> shares it all or I am not paying Donut
>> much mind on tidbits.
I ( me, personally ) don’t think Brendan finally admitting that he knew/heard that Marsh was “scouting ahead” of Steed and the Crew that day is a ‘tidbit’. I think that’s important… and as much as I wish Brendan would still tell everything he knows… I believe he is telling the truth ( finally ) about that one ‘part of the story’.
So that makes whatever Holly Neill *thought* she was hearing in that Air Study video a moot point. Brendan’s ‘testimony’ means Marsh really WAS ‘out ahead’ of Steed and the crew that day.
Holly Neill’s entire point about what she thought she was hearing is that she felt it was PROOF that Marsh really did “scout the escape route”… and that made him look better, or more competent, or something.
She didn’t realize that ANY proof that Marsh was out AHEAD of Jesse and the crew ( and not with them or behind them ) was going to raise it’s own set of ‘competency’ questions… and also produce even more ‘disturbing’ questions that deserve answers.
awful thought to look back and think of that.
I have been through very horrific moments in my life so in a strange way I do get her doing that action but from an investigative perspective it was one of the most crucial to me and you do not need the cell and I know that because I investigated my own cell from this horrific weekend— that should of been court ordered mandatory but since this all began there is certain folks just trying to glaze this weekend to be swallowable /approachable topic vs down right choke you up and break you down – angry from the depth of a person’s soul for all the losses because there was not just chaos but negligence without a doubt- in my humble opinion…
John Dougherty started new chapter
OK WTKTT, we will get you a measure of the exact length of the line cut by GMHS. That will clear up some of what you are talking about and what time they spent after Trueheart Brown was at the line with GMHS. Did you have a time for that visit by Trueheart? If not it could maybe be estimated by the 100 yard time line. You cover the details so well, a book by you or at least a synopsis once this is completed would be a great addition from the civilian perspective. You have encouraged much of my own interest–beside my own personal tragedy and the fact we were on the line, lived the evacuation like the Katrina people in that GYM, then did the desert again including 8 months near Congress, Alamo Lake west side almost a month in that March heat, then wandering all over hell. A friend, Matt lent us a cabin in the Navajo Lake area but we could only stand that 9000 ft level for about a month and never were able to acclimate to that high altitude. So it was off to Nevada for a while, then attempts to purchase a property failed so Joy and I disagreed and separated, so I was off to Montana, even meeting Dr. Ted Putnam while I was living in my jeep in the Wal Mart parking lot in Helena for a time still looking for a place to reside.
I truly believe those many hikes we did with important individuals concerned with the fire did me and Joy in. It has taken me some study and time and seeing all these locals die and that I could no long acclimate to anything higher than 6000 ft., then a heart attack in Montana and three more here that I realized my lungs were compromised from the emissions we got here in Yarnell. Most of the NH3 is dissipated over time but the enormous amount that was dropped near Yarnell has taken its toll on the locals. I knew something was wrong not too long after the fire when I was finding myself at times unable to get across a parking lot at Wal Mart without stopping for breath. I was riding bike around Helena for transportation yet suffering all the while and having to stop being winded fast. I fought the chest pains all along and now here at Yarnell after six heart stints and three heart attacks found myself in the worse condition ever as far as stamina and health. I have come to realize it is the elderly that took the brunt of this problem since younger folks can stand to loose a great amount of lung capacity and actually even older folks operate on a slim lung basis.
I will take Joys father who just recently passed for example. He had one lung, even so, smoked 5 packs of cigarettes a day, did no exercise, yet had another mass on the other lung and still lived after the lung was removed in 1987 until 2015–that is 28 more years after the lung was gone and the cigarette habit and other bad lung still in process. It makes me wonder how in 13 years we loose over 83 people in this small town–is there a catalyst among the hidden 8-13% hidden to go along with that lung killing NH3 that make it even more deadly?
Joy’s Dad’s obituary is in today’s Wickenburg sun–I am sure it will tell it as it is–she is that way, including mentioning his enjoyment of Budweiser. You have got to love people like Joy, they tell it as they see it and believe it which means she is not a sheep, but someone not afraid to express the facts.
So the fish killing orange shit now manufactured in Israel and with a goodly amount of secret chemical ingredients dumped near residents is suspect. You wild land fire fighters look the other way as I did as a Uranium miner because that is the occupation you enjoy and want to do just as I did as a miner. You, like myself from Uranium mining won’t know the effects until you are older since it is a time release thing. It only affects those already depleted in health and lung power. You may not even attribute those problems you later find to the hellacious amount of retardant and its emissions you breath in. Your bosses will lie to you since they are brain washed by the chemical companies that this stuff is inert. So was I lied to as a Uranium miner–the small doses you get won’t hurt you. Never mind by now I have had over 20 cancers removed from my body including melanoma, yet none of my three siblings have ever had one removed.
Will this retardant ever have a study for its health effects? Don’t hold your breath–this is a multi-billion dollar chemical industry. They will tell you it is safe as a baby. I think it is safer to smoke cigarettes at 5 packs a day than it is to breath this shit in –especially if you are and elder.
I wrote in 13 years–what it shoud be but actually only three years after the fire we lost the 84 people. And do not think I advocate cigarette smoking even though it is likely safer than breathing the retardant emissions. You don’t need the pain of having a lung removed and other health problems. Joy’s written obituary of her Dad is based on much time and medical research she has done–I have witnessed the time she has put in on it. He also had a blood poisoning, something that might have killed him beside the smoking. She is not done with her research–same as why 19 died uselessly.
you are correct there Sonny…I am researching not only my father but these 19…I do not buy into the program. YES, my father did much contributing factors like smoke 5 packs a day of cigarettes with no filter on them and he loved his Budweiser and he always on his non drinking days had a pot of stout black coffee going all day long drinking it- and had one lung removed in 87′ and a mass on the other and cardiac issues and most people would think great he died in my sleep but he was a Leo and when he roared Thanksgiving week he felt like he was being poisoned I chuckled it off as he was the main contributing factor but I have spent much time exhausting if it was anything else even in forensic stage but in it I also am doing the same for the 19 because just because they had some contributing factor in the end I want to make sure no stone is left unturned and I will feel I did my best…I did watch tv in the 70’s Gary; Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys/Miss Marple/Time Tunnel/Combat/Twilight Zone were my shows of choice hence my inquisitive nature.
a lot of my research has remained with people I know who don’t blab like I see Sonny has done to me- he is not a person you can share to and he keeps it to himself- he says he is but get a few in him and you can work anything out of him and again his perception is not always “reality”…that is a FACT. Some things are down right unkind and have no basis- To me, I can brush things off and fresh start but the fact I tell him something with the words can you keep it between us and he comes here immediately and blab tells me such…
oh Gary and Six Million Dollar Man and Wonder Woman and Bionic Woman and Fantasy Island
Charlie said:OK WTKTT, we will get you a measure of the exact length of the line cut by GMHS.
MY REPLY: WE does not mean me and him…maybe someone else is helping him..
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 23, 2016 at 7:53 am
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> OK WTKTT, we will get you a measure of the exact length of the
>> line cut by GMHS. That will clear up some of what you are
>> talking about and what time they spent after Trueheart Brown
>> was at the line with GMHS.
In all honesty, Sonny, I don’t think that’s really worth the effort.
The SAIT investigators themselves were ‘out there’ and their final estimate for the total amount of ‘completed handline’ by GM up in that area ended up being represented by that ‘green line’ on their map on page ‘ii’ of the SAIR.
That ‘green line’ is a little ‘fuzzy’ on that map… but it absolutely represents only about 145 to 250 yards of ‘completed handline’.
If you look at that ‘expected line production rates’ chart in the NWCG, that difference between a minimum measurement of 145 yards and a possible maximum measurement of 250 yards only amounts to difference of 45 minutes.
So anyway you ‘cut it’ ( either just 145 or up to a possible 250 yards )… the STORY is still the same. They didn’t accomplish more than what would normally have been just 1 hours worth of work, or perhaps 1 hour 30 or 1 hour 45 minutes.
That doesn’t come anywhere near the 6 ( SIX ) hours they were actually there working in that location.
And that’s why I was just saying that even being someone who is a stickler for details, I myself don’t think it’s worth the effort it will take to determine whether it was REALLY just 145 yards, or REALLY just 200 yards.
Either number still represents a ‘pitiful’ amount of actual ‘productive work’ for 19 (supposedly) elite Type 1 Hotshots working that area… and it doesn’t change the STORY represented there… and/or the indications that those men were already exhausted, sleep-deprived, hungover, or just plain ‘sandbagging’ it that day.
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> Did you have a time for that visit by Trueheart?
Yes. That is an absolute known ( and taken from Brown’s own GPS unit ).
The Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV with Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown in it ARRIVED up there at the anchor point for that face-to-face with Eric and Jesse Steed at exactly 11:55 AM.
The ‘face-to-face lasted almost exactly 30 minutes.
At exactly 12:25 PM… the Polaris Ranger is now ‘on the move’ again and leaving the anchor point to go and drop Brendan McDonough off down at the old-grader.
So call it exactly NOON when Trueheart Brown said in his own typed Unit Log that he ‘noticed’ that Granite Mountain only had 100 yards of line ‘secured’.
Granite Mountain went ‘tools up’ right around 3:30 PM, after Byron Kimball’s 3:30 PM weather report.
So that leaves 3 and 1/2 hours ( between NOON and 3:30 PM ) for Granite Mountain to have added to that 100 yards of ‘line work’ that Brown reported seeing at NOON.
Holly’s Statements below need some clarification—-
The 5 Doctors/ MD’s
Dr. Shvarts, Dr. Enstice, Dr. Poulos, Dr. Shelly, Dr. Wallis
The only MD who made any reference to the EA reports or conclusions was Dr. Enstice.
Four had None to .02 but he missed a conclusion on Zuppiger who the Lab Director found .04
But Dr. Enstice only reported on 1 finding of .01. No comment on the .04.
The Laboratory Director Norman Wade did all the lab work but maid no conclusion of the differences in the EA reports or the higher readings.
This lack of conclusions is staggering coming from 5 different MD’s.
No conclusion on McKee’s different drugs in the Blood.
No conclusion on the 2-.09, 1- .05, and 2- .03.
No further investigation on the no EA to .02 VS the higher readings.
So then you are saying the exams are flawed because the ME’s did not address the different EA
tests. Or that their findings are flawed?
My perception is they really were not looking for Drugs or Alcohol. The victims died of Burns and they were not interested in the other statistics. Which was not a complete evaluation.
You also have spewed the Victims and Management issue for the past two years.
Have you then changed your mind on that?
Reply to Bob Powers post on March 22, 2016 at 12:14 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Holly’s Statements below need some clarification—-
>>
>> The 5 Doctors/ MD’s
>> Dr. Shvarts, Dr. Enstice, Dr. Poulos, Dr. Shelly, Dr. Wallis
>> The only MD who made any reference to the EA reports or conclusions
>> was Dr. Enstice.Four had None to .02 but he missed a conclusion on
>> Zuppiger who the Lab Director found .04 But Dr. Enstice only reported
>> on 1 finding of .01. No comment on the .04.
>>
>> The Laboratory Director Norman Wade did all the lab work but maid
>> no conclusion of the differences in the EA reports or the higher readings.
>>
>> This lack of conclusions is staggering coming from 5 different MD’s.
Yes, it is. Nice ’roundup’ there, Bob. Thank you.
What is also ‘staggering’ is that even with some of these VERY ‘High’ Ethyl Alcohol rates showing up… the actual reporting about the ‘decompositional state’ of each of the bodies was very ‘spotty’ as well. Only SOME of the ME’s even bothered to put a ‘value’ on what they where seeing with regards to decomposition state such as Light, Moderate, Heavy or even NONE ( if that was their conclusion ).
Only SOME of the ME’s even bothered to do that… and only for SOME of the autopsies.
So that means it’s not even really possible to go back and do a good analysis of whether the ‘Alcohol’ levels really COULD be fully and completely attributed to any kind of normal decompositional process(es).
They ( the ME’s ) screwed that up as well.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> No conclusion on McKee’s different drugs in the Blood.
Those were POWERFUL DRUGS found in his system. There should have
been ‘followup’ on those findings alone.
>> No conclusion on the 2-.09, 1- .05, and 2- .03.
>> No further investigation on the no EA to .02 VS the higher readings.
It was a ‘botch job’, and appears to have been a ‘Double Eye’ scenario.
As in… either it was ‘Incompetence’… or it was ‘Intentional’.
Robert the Second said:
Holly Neil was there and I talked with her for awhile – no, make that debated with her – on the entire YH Fire and GMHS debacle. She is still spewing ‘The Party Line’ of blaming management, the GMHS were victims, the toxicology reports are flawed due to a whole host of reasons and thus cannot be relied upon, and much more.
Holly Neill here, it looks like I got another invitation to the Jerry Springer show.
I was at the Academy banquet.
I did not meet or talk with anyone there named Robert the Second.
I did meet a guy there named Fred Schoeffler and we talked.
I did not say/spew that GM were “victims”, nor did I “blame management”.
We did discuss the toxicology reports.
I discussed my concerns that out of the five Medical Examiners who conducted the autopsies, only one of them consistently addressed the EA correlation issue. I said that I believe the EA issue should have been consistently addressed across the board by all of the examiners when EA was present.
Mr Schoeffler disagreed with me that “five” ME’s conducted the exams. I suggested he review the data again for the correct number of ME’s. Perhaps this pissed him off, it was not intentional. Just the facts.
Gee Fred, I thought we had a nice civil conversation and a little fun catching flying shirts together.
no “spewing” involved.
Have a Nice Day!
Holly Neill said, “Have a Nice Day!”
Right on…this proves Holly reads our little Jerry Springer Blog on a regular basis. Only a regular reader would have known to use that little gem from my much earlier posts as in,. “Have a Nice Day” means…Fuck You!
Well played Neill…well played. Welcome aboard. Don’t be shy and don’t be a stranger!
Gary,
That’s a cute little gem you point out, but I actually meant it literally, as in:
Have a Nice Day!
I wasn’t saying F you to anyone. But I’ll keep it in mind from now on.
OK…have it your way…wink, wink. I still think it was well played.
I actually am not a tv person so looked up what this Jerry Springer show is all about and Jerry’s topics range from bisexual affairs to rape. I do not think we have covered that on IM….yet I also noted Jerry’s guests sometimes get out of control and yell and scream at each other when watching a sample, but they are more believable than some other talk-shows. I guess I’d have to sit through a show to see if you can compare John Dougherty’s open forum to this named tv show-
I can say the rating laid with a 3-4 when aired this show business tv show JERRY SPRINGER and the hikers cannot tell you how many have come to us stating they give John Dougherty’s website a 10/thumbs up and even authors have gained good detailed information and records for their own book and we are always thanked as well as John Dougherty for having a public place to peak to this very day YEARS LATER that still discuss and document this tragedy that seem like others want the world to believe in the “victim” role versus any accountability or owning up on negligence & to make the proper changes from having this happen again and wwtktt is right on the topic were these men “ready to go” to do this small bush spotty fire that Donut confirmed and we the eyewitness saw…Also this is an online blog NOT show business…HUGE difference…these are REAL people with REAL names here and tv entails “acting”…I am not acting—no script here…but as Dr. Ted Putnam states about the hikers—we sure are characters. How we manage to balance 2 different styles of lifestyles to make the adventures and hikes a GO….it’s not easy for either one of us at moments…I love ants and he does not…Sonny will feed them his grits leftovers so it swells inside them and they die…I am the relocate gal of rattlers and skunks and wildlife and Sonny said a dead rattler is a good thing…lunch then a hat band- Sonny likes his property to be mother nature 100% and I am a blend of manicure with mother nature- If we are anywhere Sonny is such the mountain man that he knows mosquito season- keep a basil or pansey plant nearby because skeeters hate ’em. He buries his used bananas; great for the soil. BUT NUMBER ONE useful thing he ever taught me is how to look for Indian Root in your local terrain and its a lifesaver tool when you do not have any food or water in the desert as it helped me a lot. I teach Sonny the bs laws of today and he teaches me priceless tools in case I am ever without pack and just out in the terrain of the diversity elevations— I explained to Sonny the elevations over 9500 are simply just hard on my health to do and I know I can live through the surprise snow storms in shorts and I did it but it is the one I felt looking back was the most challenging because I could hardly get a breathe in-
So far without sitting and watching a show of Jerry’s and just reading Wikipedia I think this page earned a higher rating than this show business tv show—real people. real time. real names. real stories.
Thanks again WTKTT — exactly as I expected that under an hour could be a close estimate –however the men looked bushed coming up that mountain so perhaps an hour is a bit shy of what work they were able to accomplish. Also I would imagine that there are some that know exactly what amount of time they put in on that line since someone was tapping them to go to Glen Isla.
Actually when we saw the men Joy says it was about noon. So that would give them a couple hours out of our sight while we were watching the fire take off. Joy says it was 12:14 when the fire took off and took the mountain in less than 14 minutes. For sure the fireworks were on as we were watching from the two track at that time. Nothing an army could do against what we were witnessing, except stay out of the danger zone.
At that time it was moving toward Peeples Valley and unless you knew weather you would never think it could reverse so quickly. It was strong going toward Peeples Valley even though it was headed mostly in a down hill direction. Of course it was violent when reversed since it was now headed up hill with winds that were swaying the trees as you see in the recent videos on Shrine Road and the one where they were using drip torches as well–not yet surfaced but certainly someone has it.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on
March 21, 2016 at 9:46 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> The men looked bushed coming up that mountain
>> so perhaps an hour is a bit shy of what work they
>> were able to accomplish.
Those ‘line building’ estimates ( in different fuel types ) in even the NWCG Field guides can never be considered ‘exact’ because there are many. many variables involved…
…but no matter how you cut it ( pun intended )… accomplishing only 1 or 1.75 hours worth of work when you are actually in the same location for upwards of 6 (SIX) full hours means something was ‘wrong’.
I think the ‘something wrong’ was that these men were either absolutely sleep-deprived, exhausted or hung over… or some combination of all three.
That very morning… on their own ‘ready’ board… no one was even reporting their ‘readiness’ state at more than 60 or 70 percent… except for Brendan McDonough… who wrote his ‘ready state’ down as “HELL YEA!”.
Brendan would then, apparently, be the first one to crap out that day in the 108 degree heat.
Eric Marsh should have UTF’ed that assignment on Saturday night.
He had already RELEASED his crew to the winds at 7:30 PM on Saturday night ( even though their timesheets still say they were ‘on the clock’ until 10:30 PM ) with the full expectation that they now had their regular TWO FULL DAYS OFF ( Sundays and Mondays ).
There has never been a full and accurate ‘accounting’ of exactly when ALL of those 20 men were actually, finally notified they were being RECALLED from their “TWO days off” and were expected to report to Station 7 at 4:30 AM… or whether ALL of those 20 men were within the proper ‘rest’ guidelines before heading off to die in Yarnell.
Some of them might have only had a few hours of sleep… if any at all… and some of them *might* have been truly ‘hungover’ as they geared up and hit the line on Sunday morning.
I should be talking to Ted soon again. I forgot to ask him what time he estimates the GMHS crew would have cut the line they did cut. He located it for us, then actually walked it all the way down to the end with Wayne Niel. Both are experts on line making and can give a very close estimate of the time it would have taken them to cut that line since they were both there on site.
Bob Powers and WTKTT gave us some important information on the human factor situation. That much blood alcohol means the fellows were really hung over and maybe taking a shot or two to take a little hair off the dog. Heat exhaustion had to be another thing with that type clothing, heavy pack, and swinging saws and dragging brush in that temperature. Joy had her boots off and was near heat exhausted even when we left the scene. I had to urge Joy more than once by telling her those were body bags they were heliocoptering out. They were bladder bags and did look like body bags. Then I too got some exhaustion and felt it but pressed on and now very happy we did. We did not know about that back burn on Shrine Rd. until after the fact. So even without pack, Joy and I struggled against the heat that day. Consider we had been regularly hiking and even a few days before had hiked from Prescott DMV to Wilhoit–,meaning we were OK to hike. Then add to the fact that they had no rest period, expected a couple days off and when your boss changes that agenda, a person’s attitude drops to a low point. Those that work hard want to play hard once they get a day or two off. But they knew they must strictly obey orders so off they went and with weakened bodies, mental status, etc. their powers to resist a bad move were compromised to a great extent. Sadly due to all these adverse physical and mental conditions they acquiesced to their Greek God Steed, and perhaps he was somewhat compromised and gave in to Mr. Marsh. Mr. Marsh however must have also been touched by the heat since he also obeyed the chain of command above. It might have taken a MacArthur to have not caved in on those conditions.
Since then Donut has been closed mouth–and others keep trying to paint a different picture than evidence clearly shows. Spending thousands on memorials, trail to nowhere that will scantly be used, restricting state land and access to the incident site, and deeding it to survivors of the 19 accomplishes nothing to the real problem here. Only truth will suffice here.
We certainly lost 19 strong wild land fire fighting men. But we have also lost more than 84 individuals in this small town of 645. That is 13% of the population gone since the fire. Lets put out a few million dollars for the loved ones there since that is more than 4 times the deaths of the 19. They deserve a couple sections around here set aside for their relatives as well. But it was the silent killer of retardant that killed these old folks. But it was no fault of their own–like the 17 they got dumped on. They are dead now. Maybe I know what dead is since I was dead for quite a time but brought back. I was A.D.N.R. person–what I have on my records. They did anyway and here I am to continue a while. I think I might be the 85th and now a zombie of sorts since I have lost all lung power since the dumping of that 230,000 gallons of retardant nearby. I can say dying was not bad at all, and in some ways I wonder why they brought me back seeing that death is so peaceful. Maybe I wanted to be with my son Ted who did die and is buried due to an ordeal similar in nature to the cause of the deaths of those 17. People above him who did not look consider his life valuable enough to take care everything was in order and safe for him to do his job. The system that kills 17 fine young men needs a thorough going through–even a clean out and shaking of the tree to find and kill the fungi. No amount of money or memorial will replace those lives.
Gary.
I cannot see Holly coming to this site unless someone brought it to her attention.
I have not been in touch with Holly in 2016 but I know her focus is to keep rumors from stirring with certain areas.
She would not be a lady who would say have a nice day with such meaning…she is not like that.
So my question was an ol commenter on here use to say RTS was Fred…and I remembered not paying it much mind…who cares if a person has a handle vs real name…I am good with it so RTS you keep being you and I think you are important to this whole thing…I could not comprehend why it matters to connect certain dots as long as we realize and learn about Fred and his experiences and background…. Oh side note…anything new on baker canyonwoodland fire?
Tomorrow is major concerns with woodland fires…north… Northeast…swestern…strong winds tomorrow…
I lost my thought typing on this phone of his…let me send and maybe see what it was I was writing…
Joy…as I have said before, you really are a priceless and very naive and gullible person. NEILL was clearly playin’ off the old joke here on this thread of “Have a Nice Day.” Read the context she used it in. She was clearly not intending to tell RTS or Fred to have a nice day.
NEILL was telling him to “Have a NIce Day” in the same way I said weeks or months ago police departments all across the country forbid their officer by policy from telling motorists they just gave a citation to and often had words with to…”Have a Nice Day” as they walk away which does NOT mean have a nice day.
You need to grow up just a little bit if you are going to run with the big dogs, otherwise, you should stay on the porch.
And once again, NEILL”S use of the classic “Have a Nice Day” was well played. NEILL showed she can run with the big dogs, appreciate her humor for what it is. Give credit where credit is due.
NEILL burned RTS while she outed him from the closet as pay back for what he said about their exchange at the training. NEILL is not a nice person, or at least she is not nice all of the time. I like that. Did RTS deserve it? That doesn’t matter in this context. I am not the judge of that issue, I am only the judge of how she played the exchange between the two. Point…NEILL!
And I am being a jerk, because I keep capitalizing NEILL’S name, just like she did when she came back on me like a tornado because I crossed her, when she told me…my name is NEILL.
Try to keep up Joy. There is a lot of subtext going on here on this thread Joy, and if you can’t read it, you miss out on so much!
Actually…that was probably a very unfair statement I made regarding how nice NEILL really is. I have no doubt that she is always nice to nice people who don’t cross her.
BUT…if you offend NEILL like RTS and I both did, watch out, she bites back.
And there is nothing wrong with that. People who either don’t, or can’t bite back, become everyone’s bitches (non-gender specific).
still not on the fence or porch here on this one because in the times I have spoke with Holly- I really feel she did not mean it like you thought and again I do think someone drew her here to the site and is not an avid person to visit here unless someone drew her here and again she is a strong woman to put up with firefighters on the line like she has and she was not calling RTS out but stating the facts and what happened that day from her position was all. I would not perceive her to be ill-mannered in such a way so I remain on the side line thinking my own thoughts in my own pretty little world which aint part of the dog eat dog BIG world.
You don’t think that NEILL saying “I did not meet or talk with anyone there named Robert the Second.
I did meet a guy there named Fred Schoeffler and we talked.”
You don’t think that was outing anybody from the closet after almost three years of that charade? Wake up and smell Sonny’s Cowboy Coffee Joy. Or better yet, take a big swig of it.
That fit right smack into the middle of payback is a bitch (non-gender specific). Ouch.
Really nice people don’t play the payback game.
Gary- I drink coffee…yet I have been known to with a muddy buddy use coffee as a scrub because it has several benefits that include: exfoliating and anti-inflammatory properties, temporary reduction of cellulite, improved circulation, reduced eye puffiness, and smooth skin.
Sonny’s coffee might get me wired…he drinks it stout like his beer.
I meant I DON’T drink coffee
also just because someone comes on here or does not come on here does not define anything and I accept Holly came here to explain her moment that day versus a discussion of people assuming or guessing—now we know—she wrote with clarity and detail not like Dale1— so move on is my way of looking at it. And I don’t care if RTS ends up being Fred — it is irrelevant from my standpoint. At least RTS comes here and engages and participates and does not do one liners and pop-ins…my hats off to RTS for his continued participation. Sonny has spoken some stuff not so appropriate things over time but I don’t pay it much mind…he tries to state his perception which is not always another’s’ way of thinking INCLUDING me…he at times from my standpoint has no right to say stuff he does but then looking back count how many times people called Sonny a hero and me not (too many times) and all “believe” he came back for me and saved my life and I did not have sense enough…he took the day’s events and made it fit his way of thinking which to me is similar to the SAIR because the time of the day we left area I could of went my way because I knew the area and knew I could get back but Sonny was newer to the area so he went to survival mode and thought less terrain more boulders is the only way to go…a longer steeper way…which by the way is the current GMHS memorial trail is being constructed and it can be confirmed with Morgan Loew cbs reporter the only person who cared which way we came out that horrific afternoon. The memorial board has no idea they made our trail and honor the hikers with their trail for the 19-
quite ironic-
Joy,
<>
“Wilma’s husband can help bring clarity to topic…he was there”
<>
“Wilmaaaaaaa….”
YES FRED.
<>
http://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-legacy-of-leaders-beyond-south-canyon.html
http://universityofhardknocks.academia.edu/FredSchoeffler
<>
“So my question was an ol commenter on here use to say RTS was Fred…and I remembered not paying it much mind…who cares if a person has a handle vs real name…I am good with it so RTS you keep being you and I think you are important to this whole thing…I could not comprehend why it matters to connect certain dots as long as we realize and learn about Fred and his experiences and background….”
<>
“And I don’t care if RTS ends up being Fred — it is irrelevant from my standpoint.”
You really don’t have any idea if RTS is Fred? “ …ends up being Fred…” I would have just left it alone if you had ‘posting remorse’ with pointing him out and everything.
One more piece of unsolicited advice for you to take it or leave it. After praising Dale1 for posting and encouraging him by telling him not to worry about people bashing his writing style, I recommend against turning around and criticizing his writing style. It just seems inconsistent.
Woodsman
Woodsman said: You really don’t have any idea if RTS is Fred? “ …ends up being Fred…” I would have just left it alone if you had ‘posting remorse’ with pointing him out and everything.
MY REPLY: Actually I was not pointing him out if anyone read I was piecing the puzzle when certain people would not share it all and only thing there I can point out is EN said long who was who so I was not saying anything new but with recent posts it began to be obvious and like I said I do not care and if people have pointed things out to me about me that should never be in a public way- why can’t I be free to share the obvious and others can perceive I was pointing out but I was just using my Nancy Drew mentality to who was this person at the academy but since then behind the scenes recent it was confirmed but I had already said what I did…remorse?…I do not comprehend why I would have remorse for trying to figure out who the person was- others were trying to figure it out…and it looks like before Holly came here I already threw out my guesses…so she just confirmed it as well as another…why does it matter if they are one in the same or not…it don’t…not to me…but I do not have remorse for making my guesses…
I mean…you may not watch TV but didn’t you see the movie “Get Hard” with Will Farrell and Kevin Hart?
And please remember…NEILL, is the one who keeps calling our thread the “Jerry Springer Show.” That is the same thing she called our good faith effort to discover all of the facts surrounding the death of the crew on the YHF several months ago. Now how nice is that?
After doesn’t NEILL and Amanda Marsh and their wildland firefighter foundation and all of us want the same thing? A better tomorrow for all wildland firefighters by recognizing, accepting and correcting the mistakes of the past?
Agreed to that Gary: Holly and Elizabeth, et. al. (a few in their corner) are on the same page with each other.
case proven.
Again Sonny and his perception is off base and who feeds his views is beyond me…but than again this Sonny has been married six times and probably will never GET or CONNECT to the female energy…
I am not gonna engage. I think it was as simple as I stated-
how else could Holly have come here and said it-
She said she did not meet a Robert the Second and then went on to explain who she did meet…she does not come here and to me it was not calling a person out—
You and Sonny can have your big world of thinking,,,
No excuse for six wives here. They were good marriages while they lasted–the life of a tramp miner, logger and outdoor living isn’t much happiness for a lady. But you could say I have, like the wild land fire fighter that fought 6 fires, at least a bit of experience. Joy has come the closest to any with her idea that she wanted to pioneer Arizona. She really did with me when we lived in a cave eight months, tried and walked deserts and mountains, even slept in the snow near Show Low–things only a wild land fire fighter could understand.
Yep for a cookie cutter woman and kid life on the streets she does love the outdoors, animals, and finding out about why someone could die. She is hard headed and not much to admit her mistakes–but I won’t hold it against her. She can use chop sticks–something I don’t want to learn.
But I still think the clear and free boulders are the safest route when there is too much manzanita and brush otherwise. Admittedly it helps to be an old goat to get through them–but Willis ought to know they are must easier to transverse than thick manzanita and much safer if you have plenty of them around you and even some you can get under. Those wild land fire fighters, if they be like Eric Marsh was, can hop them and make it look easy.
This site is where people come to see what gives. No closed mouth Donuts here–people tell all here because they want the facts out. There is too much at stake to sweep this thing under a rug.
Reply to Holly Neill post on March 21, 2016 at 1:45 pm
>> Holly Neill said…
>>
>> Holly Neill here, it looks like I got another invitation to the Jerry Springer show.
There’s no one posting anything on this PUBLIC forum using that particular name.
>> Holly Neill also said…
>>
>> I was at the Academy banquet.
Do you know anything about the circumstances and/or details surrounding someone being asked to LEAVE this year’s Academy because Amanda Marsh took offense at something this person was saying in one of the Academy’s accredited classes?
>> Holy Neill said…
>>
>> We did discuss the toxicology reports.
>>
>> I discussed my concerns that out of the five Medical Examiners who
>> conducted the autopsies, only one of them consistently addressed
>> the EA correlation issue.
For anyone reading along… Holly’s ‘EA’ acronym stands for “Ethyl Alcohol’.
>> Holly Neill also said…
>>
>> I said that I believe the EA issue should have been consistently addressed
>> across the board by all of the examiners when EA was present.
I agree. In that regard… the autopsies and the toxicology tests were a ‘botch job’.
Very unfortunate, given that the Medical Examiners must have been fully aware they were participating in a ‘historic’ event that was already garnering the World’s attention… and that the likelihood of some level of ‘impaired judgement’ was still, on July 2, 2013, very much a possible causal factor.
But we still DO know the following…
1. The timesheets for the entire Granite Mountain crew were ‘padded’ even on the day before they would die. The timesheets had them ALL still working the ‘Mount Josh’ fire until 10:30 PM on Saturday, June 29, 2013… but they were all either ‘home for dinner’ or already ‘out drinking’ by 7:30 PM that evening.
2. The Granite Mountain Hotshots had been RELEASED when they all returned back to Prescott circa 7:30 PM. They ‘scattered to the winds’ under the full impression that they were now having TWO full days OFF… and they all proceeded to start doing whatever Hotshots do when they believe they are OFF the next day.
3. Eric Marsh accepted the Yarnell Hill Fire assignment circa 8:00 PM while he, himself, was having dinner at the Prescott Brewing Company. He called Jesse Steed… who was ( by then ) drinking beer on his own back porch and Jesse Steed then ‘called around’ to the Squad Bosses informing them that they were no longer going to have the next day OFF.
4. This was now a RECALL situation. Hotshots being RECALLED some hours after they had all begun doing what Hotshots do when they think they have a day off the next day. What SHOULD have happened is that, before Eric Marsh accepted the Sunday assignment, an attempt SHOULD have been made to find out where the men all were, what they were already doing, and if some of them had ( perhaps ) already gotten themselves into a condition that would render them basically ‘unfit for duty’ the next day. That’s not how it went down. Eric Marsh ‘accepted’ the assignment before knowing if a full RECALL of the crew was even going to be possible.
5. The best indicator of what condition the crew was really in that next day still comes from the physical evidence of them not really accomplishing much all day in the location where they were assigned to ‘build line’. Even the Arizona Forestry SAIT’s best estimate at actual ‘line constructed’ by a contingent of 19 Type 1 Hotshots working in the same spot for upwards of 6 ( SIX ) hours is no more than somewhere between 150 to 250 yards of ‘completed line work’. That, itself, indicates a pretty high level of ‘exhaustion’ or other impairment. See page ‘ii’ of the SAIR. The ‘green line’ is labelled ‘completed handline’.
BTW: Good to hear from you again. Don’t be such a stranger.
** INDICATIONS OF HOW LITTLE WORK GM ACTUALLY
** ACCOMPLISHED ALL DAY ON JUNE 30, 2013…
PDF page 38
Wildland Fire Associates ( for ADOSH )
Granite Mountain IHC Entrapment and Burnover Investigation
——————————————————————————–
DIVSA ( Eric Marsh ) did not feel that GMIHC ( Granite Mountain Hotshots ) needed help from BRIHC ( Blue Ridge Hotshots ).
However, GMIHC made little progress ( all day ) in establishing an anchor point.
Once the SEAT drops had extinguished the test fire that GMIHC was igniting, the crew tried to build direct handline, which subsequently failed. We found no evidence that DIVS A notified Planning OSC that the tactic of going direct had failed. Such a notification should trigger a reassessment of both strategy and tactics.
——————————————————————————-
From Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown’s typed Unit Log…
——————————————————————————-
11:55 AM – 12:25 PM – Face to face meeting with Marsh/Steed
We tied in ( with Marsh and Steed up at the anchor point ).
I notice they have about 100 yards of line secured. We talk
to them about the situation and comments are made about
how neither crew received a briefing.
——————————————————————————-
** EXPECTED LINE BUILDING RATES…
The NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide, PMS-210…
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/products/pms210.pdf
From PDF page 121 of the
NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide…
——————————————————————————–
PRODUCTION TABLES
Sustained Line Production Rates of 20-Person Crews in Feet per Hour.
Number outside parentheses represents the expected rate of production.
Numbers in parentheses are possible low/high ranges for line production.
Fire Behavior Fuel Model, Type I Direct
Chaparral 436 ( 330-528 ) feet per hour.
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: Of all the listed ‘Fuel Models’ in the NWCG production
rate table, the ‘Chaparral Fuel Model’ already has the SLOWEST
expected rate of hourly line production.
——————————————————————————–
436 feet ( per hour ) equals 145.33 yards ( per hour ).
6 hours times 436 feet per hour = 2,616 feet ( 872.00 yards ).
5 hours times 436 feet per hour = 2,180 feet ( 726.66 yards ).
4 hours times 436 feet per hour = 1,744 feet ( 581.00 yards ).
3 hours times 436 feet per hour = 1,308 feet ( 436.00 yards ).
2 hours times 436 feet per hour = 872 feet ( 290.66 yards ).
1.75 hours times 436 feet per hour = 763 feet ( 254.33 yards ).
1.50 hours times 436 feet per hour = 654 feet ( 218 yards ).
1 hour times 436 feet per hour = 436 feet ( 145.33 yards ).
The entire Granite Mountain Crew was ‘in place’ at the anchor area from approximately 9:30 AM until their ‘tools up’ moment circa 3:30 PM. That is a total time of 6 (SIX) hours ‘working’ at that location ( minus an uknown period of time for ‘lunch’ ).
But the amount of ‘completed handline’ as reported by even the SAIT investigators, after extensive examination of the area, was only in the 150 to 250 yard range.
At the ‘expected rate’ for line building in that fuel type, that represents only 1 to 1.75 hours of actual (productive) work.
The following testimony doesn’t really add to the ‘proof’ that Granite Mountain never really accomplished much real ‘work’ the whole day up on that high ridge… but it *might* indicate WHY they didn’t.
Air Attack Bravo 3 ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) testified that shortly after they arrived in Yarnell at almost exactly NOON, and, after working with Darrell Willis ( who was still trying in vain to protect that Double Bar-A-Ranch ), they took their first ‘turn around the fire’ to size the situation up for themselves.
While they were ‘sizing up the situation’ for themselves from the air… they were convinced ( even as early as 12:45 PM ) that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were already ‘out of the game’ up there on that ridge based on how the fire had progressed since that morning… and they were so sure that GM was ‘out of the game’ that they also believed they were simply ‘staged’ up there on the ridge and waiting for someone to give them another assignment.
They also testified that they ‘checked’ with DIVSA Eric Marsh himself around that time ( 12:45 PM or so ) and that even Eric Marsh ALREADY knew that the whole ‘anchor and flank’ thing that Granite Mountain had been sent up there to do that morning just wasn’t going to work…
But there they ( Granite Mountain ) sat… for the rest of the afternoon… apparently still plunking along on what even Eric Marsh seemed to know as early as 12:45 PM was a ‘useless assignment’.
Here is exactly what they said to the ADOSH investigators…
Q = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Rusty Warbis ( In Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ )
A1 = Paul Lenmark ( In Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ )
_____________________________________________________
Q: Yeah – yeah. Ah, so did you all ever talk to Division Alpha in terms of what
their – what their plan was or, ah, knowing that they’re pretty much outta the
game up there at this point in time. Did you have any conversation with ‘em?
A or A1: Um, I had contact with those divisions. I was unaware that th- th- th- that Alpha was the hotshot superintendent. Um, my understanding was that Alpha was that rim on the other side – the west side…
Q: Okay.
A or A1: …and Alpha, to me, was – with the other things that were going on – head, um, and the right flank. To me, Alpha was outta the game.
Q: Yeah, okay.
A or A1: Didn’t you touch base with them on that side just to make sure to see how far along they were, and they weren’t…
A or A1: They weren’t…
A or A1: …and they were – they were coveyed back.
A or A1: Yeah, yep.
Q: So some time that morning, they had – they had figured out they were not gonna be able to anchor and flank it?
A or A1: Yep.
_____________________________________________________
WTKTT gave us 436 ft. per hour to cut line in manzanita. I would guess that approximates the type of brush that was encountered in the death basin above Helm’s. View Joy’s photos of brush we encountered that day right about where the GMHS deployed. That translates to a bit over 145 yards. That is almost exactly what you will measure from the two track to where they ended their line that morning of June 30, 2013.
But it also gives us an idea that there is no running in that type brush. Estimates I hear of 600 yards of working a crew through such entanglement have to be much less, but still if they were able to cut their way through in that heat and with their depleted condition it would have taken another four hours to get a line just to Helms from the deployment site. It give one an idea of how difficult it was to get through. Willis was right, ordinary people can’t easily get through that manzanita overgrowth. But how much faster can 18 make their way through? I would guess the 600 yards would cost 30 minutes to an hour under the conditions of the vegetation density. I do believe one person can navigate much faster than 18 and we proved that with Joy and I.
I think if I were a boss, instead of running up and down some road or trail I would test the men’s meddle to see what they could do in a mile or so of that shit. Then we would know what escape times might amount to per 100 yards distance. There was a hundred yards to the boulders on the north and about 70 on the south rim as I remember. That seems like practical things to do for a team of men so they would know their alternatives if they had failed to follow safety regulations and got caught in a similar situation. That actually can happen again around this area and even up toward Flagstaff. There are many manzanita traps in this part of high desert Arizona.
Sonny… I left a longer ‘Reply’ to this up above as the following new parent comment… ( Just click this link to ‘jump’ up to it )…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329644
And as long as I am spewing out my random thoughts on this thread today when I should be Jeeping, except I broke my fucking Jeep…again, I will add something I forgot about the other day when I was writing about the relationship between law enforcement training and what happened to the crew.
I believe this concept was introduced by the “father” of modern hand gun combat shooting techniques and I added some of my own thoughts for flourish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper
Fighters and winners think the world is divided up into two different kinds of people, the Sheep and the Wolves or Hammers and Nails. Most of YOU people are sheep…or nails. And if you are a Wolf or a Hammer, then everyone else looks like a Sheep or a Nail to you.
But there is a third kind of person. And that is what I am….a Sheepdog. Sheepdogs run towards the smoke or the sound of gunfire when everyone else is running away.
Most of YOU people spend you days in condition WHITE because that is your happy place. You think the world if full of other people just like you…bleating sheep. And so you are usually really surprised and unprepared on the day you finally meet a Wolf.
Law Enforcement Officers, Firefighters (both WF and Structural) at least those who want to live, spend their days living under condition ORANGE with full Situational Awareness because that is their happy place. Sheep think these people are paranoid.
Factoid: While I was living and working in and around Farmington, New Mexico, I would often see the word “sheep” written and/or hear it used in sentences as Sheeps, as in, “Sheeps in Road!” This is because the word sheep can be used to mean either a singular or multiple in English and apparently does not translate well with our Navajo brethren.
Another Factoid: You should watch the movie “Windtalkers”, which is about the Navajo Code Talkers of WWII with an audience that is mostly Navajo for a real cultural experience. Hint…they laugh at different places than white people do, but forgive me, once again…I digress.
When law enforcement officers or firefighters get down to taking care of business…they easily (hopefully) transition from condition ORANGE to condition RED, which is where they need to be in the combat mode…if they want to survive.
That is when all of their previous training kicks into gear and becomes a matter of life and death because they are in the middle of a huge adrenaline dump. They experience auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, and the loss of fine motor skills as their brain directs their heart to stop sending blood to their extremities (try pulling the tab on a WF Death Shroud (c) under those conditions, your fucking fingers don’t work anymore) because your heart is conserving all of its blood for your major organs to enable you to fight to the death or flee for your life while your body relieves itself to dispose of unwanted waste.
However, when things go really go to shit (no pun intended) in a big way…some law enforcement officers and firefighters can also easily slip from condition RED into condition BLACK. That is what happened to the crew. They fatally lost their ability to process new information in REAL time…what about that don’t YOU fucking SHEEPS get? The crew’s training FAILED them when they needed it the most; it addition to a bunch of other things we have talked about here on this thread.
Well…I fucked that up, its been too many years. I am going to quit posting for awhile and go see if I can find somebody to weld my Jeep back together again. Maybe my Jeeping buddy is right? Maybe I should slow down?
Condition White: Where the Sheeps live.
Condition Yellow: Where Fire and LE live (and military in addition to some others).
Condition Orange: Where you go when you see, hear or feel something that is not right. In other words, you perceive a threat and you prepare to engage the threat.
Condition Red: Where you go (the mode) in order to survive in a full on combat situation.
Condition Black; When you look into the abyss and it looks back.
Gary,
Hope you didn’t rip your steering box off your frame – seen that before. Not fun.
Woodsman
Nope…ripped the shock mount off the rear axle and bent the hell out of a very expensive shock. I just need a new shock bracket welded to the axle and a new very expensive shock, that will have to of course be ordered from some place a long ways away from the bad ass trails of Moab.
Moab as in Bum Fuck Egypt did you even find a Garage or just some Farmer being a Mechanic in the winter???????
Well…that place has EXPLODED since the last time you were here Bob. They are expecting more than 50,000 people and more than 5000 Jeeps just for the Jeep Safari Week. I am not attending because crowds make me nervous, especially crowded Jeep Trails. But they are pouring into town like you have never seen before.
I have more than $25,000 in upgrades to my Jeep and it looks like something a soccer mom should be driving compared to most of these rigs…and they are mostly NEW rigs. I don’t know what these people do for a living, but they don’t work for Uncle Sam and never did, as a Civil Servant anyway…defense contractor, maybe.
There are at least six new huge chain motels since I was here two years ago and several more under construction. The time for you and I to make a killing on Moab real estate has done come and went, which is the story of my life. Too little…too late.
Just a joke Severial of my Motor cross and Razor friends and Family go down there I have never been but I have herd it gets crowded for Spring break.
Well…then I will let you in on another little secret. Moab may still be the center of the Jeeping universe, but UTV’s have literally taken over.
It is all Polaris Razor’s in particular, almost everywhere you look and go. There is some Motor Cross and some ATV’s but nothing like it is for Razors.
It is probably too late for you and I too make a killing in Polaris stock as well. That is almost all there is for rent anymore there on the street.
Utah lets those things run up and down the streets of Moab just as long as they are on their way to a trail….somewhere. Moab has officially gone Razor crazy.
Too bad your jeep isn’t near Gary. I have a fine miller welder and did take a year and half training in welding after a mine cave in ended that career. And Mark my son welded ships in Seattle for ten years before getting a nursing degree. So either one of us could glue that jeep back together pretty well.
Seems Steed saw code red but went forward with a black out of sensibilities. The real code black had to be when they saw that the fire was headed back their way. They used flimsy fire blankets instead of opting for the boulders. Those blankets were light enough to carry into the boulders to save having to cut and pile brush around your area. I wonder if any wanted to run to the boulders and if the main believers in blankets would have tackled them. I remember the story of Pulaski pulling out his pistol to keep men in their cave. In that case to run would have killed them despite the smoke and heat in the cave. Is that attitude of bosses in the wild land fire fighting positions prevalent? Here we saw the opposite happen where the men were killed by the bosses bad decision. It seems if you get a wild land fire fighter boss you better get one that looks out for you more than glory. It was after all a nice thought to try to save structures–but at high risk to the young ones?
Yes I think sometimes people are brutal with the truth. But smoothing over a disaster that killed 19 will never explain or change what killed those 19 wild land fire fighters.
So You Want To Be A Hotshot
Perhaps you should really know what a hotshot crew does. This statement is prepared for your study and serious consideration to purposely discourage those who might be misinformed or those better equipped both mentally and physically to apply for less demanding, but equally important work with the Forest Service. We do have many jobs that pay the same and are equally challenging, equally rewarding.
The very tern “hotshots” means many things to many people. To those of us who recruit, train and work with hotshots, the job is anything but glamorous. From experience we know that fighting fire is about 90 percent physical for the Hotshot crew. The nature of the work is demanding. Only those of high strength, agility, coordination and stamina can cope with the sustained work required of the average hotshot.
As a Hotshot, you will be required to not only produce physically, but to live together, eat together, and sleep together in close, crowded conditions. Complete compatibility is in itself a difficult challenge.
You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.
The emotional strain is extreme, and the competitive pressure of your peer group is always present.
For a crew is only as good as its weakest member.
When not on fire duty, you will be required to engage in daily structured physical fitness training that consists of a minimum 2 – 3 mile run, coordinated exercises, push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, rope climbs squat thrusts, abdominal stretching and the obstacle course.
The rest of your day will be like every other day. Hard labor using hand tools ( axe, shovel, saw ) and usually piling brush, digging holes, picking up garbage, cleaning toilets, sharpening tools, and similar tasks. You will be expected to be ready at all times to answer fire calls on the District, Forest, or out of Region. This requires you to be on 24 hour alert.
On the fire line the hothshot crews are singled out for the hazardous, difficult assignments. It is normal for Hotshots to be on shift 32 hours before relief is available. Succeeding shifts of 14-18 hours are normal. You will normally be “spiked” out away from the main fire camp, thirsty, hungry and sleeping on rocky ground, too often without proper sleeping bags. You’ll be filthy, exhausted, underfed and hurting. There will be no privacy, no sanitation, no shelter, no laundry and no doctors, however first aid is available.
The Hotshot crew is so named because of the need for tough, knowledgeable, hard individuals who can be sent ahead of the main contingent of ordinary labor crews and independently drive holding lines around critical segments of the fire, hold their lines and survive. You will be required to pack heavy loads up and down extremely mountainous terrain ( hose packs of 70 pounds ), fell large trees with either power saws or cross-cut saws, buck trees into shorter lengths, haul blocks of logs, remove dead/down and brush out of the fires path, dig ( 18 inches to 1 feet ) fireline to mineral soil, construct trenches, haul hose, pack heavy portable pumps and tanks, and burn-out your line before the fire gets there, and then start extinguishing spot fires over your line. That’s not the end of it. The dirty work of mop-up begins. Digging and scraping all hot spots out and extinguishing the heat source. Other features of the job are living in and breathing smoke for days, contending with poison oak, poison ivy, poison sumac, cactus, thorns, ticks, gnats, flies, snakes, scorpions, spiders, rolling rocks and falling trees and debris. It’s dirty, hot, dusty and freezing cold.
Obviously we’re looking for superior individuals to fill out hotshot crews.
If you can live and excel with the job I’ve described then we want you.
We care not about your sex, color, race or religion.
But if for any reason you cannot live up to these standards, then I encourage you to do yourself and the rest of the crew a favor and apply for other work.
Author: Unknown.
This letter was written by Coconino National Forest Fire Management Officer Bill Buck in 1976 and it was sent to everyone who applied to be a hotshot on the Coconino.
This is what I say about this letter on my website, which apparently no one ever reads.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
For the past few decades, this letter
has it means to be a hotshot, and to
work on what is known an Interagency
Hotshot Crew (IHC).
For several decades, these crews where
known as Interregional Hotshot
Crews, and the United States Forest
Service (USFS) was the only agency
that employed such crews.
The original typewritten letter was sent
to all returning Hotshots, and all of
those who applied to be Hotshots, for
the USFS, Coconino National Forest –
Region 3, in 1976, and only that year.
It was written by Bill Buck, Fire
Control Officer, Coconino National
Forest, although Bill’s ever-present
assistant, Steve Servis, probably
contributed to it. Even though
Wildland Firefighting history has
recorded the author as “Unknown.”
And after I received it, I was almost
too afraid to show up for work, even
though it was my second year on a
Coconino N.F. Hotshot Crew, but I
needed the job. Then I got my second
wind and I spent another 9 years on a
hotshot crew, 7 years as a hotshot
crew boss.
I believe the reason Bill wrote the letter (the rumor mill and personnel and the EEOC officer on the Coconino agreed with me because the letter was never ever sent out to anyone ever again) is because there was an effort being made to actively recruit women on Coconino Hotshot crews that very year and this letter was sent out to deliberately discourage any woman from even wanting to try and make it on any of the crews.
After Bill got shot down for writing this letter he instituted a “pack test” that had to be passed by all hotshots on the Coconino beginning in 1976 in addition to the step test and 1.5 mile run under 11 minutes that was NOT adjusted for altitude as the USFS the manual required
The pack test required every hotshot and hotshot candidate to run two miles with a 60 pound pack on in less than 22 minutes at 7,400 feet above sea level. Our pack was a 60 pound sack of cement strapped to a military plywood pack frame ammunition carrier with cotton shoulder straps that had some padding duck taped to them.
We ran up the highway dodging logging trucks and lookie loo flat landers driving RV’s that were too big for them or the highway to handle. The highway was uphill in one direction which was even worse coming back down because you slow your speed without tearing out your knees to keep from falling forward face down on the asphalt.
This kept all women off all Mighty Coke crews until 1980 when I hired the first one on my crew. The pack test had been suspended that same year by someone at the Forest Supervisor’s Office – Praise The Lord!
FINALLY…a concrete contribution that I can make to this thread that is not open for debate or conjecture although I am not sure what it has to do with the death of the crew.
I have posted a copy of the original type written letter here for historical purposes.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved3.html
The guys who wanted to set records (and there were some amazing times over the years) came over the finish line with blood streaming down their backs and chests. I just concentrated on making it under 22 minutes in keeping with my 71 got me a badge and a gun attitude towards life. Let others set AND break all of the records.
If you read the letter in this context, you will see that it was written to discourage women and men with manginations from trying to be hotshots on the Mighty Coconino!
See…this proves it. I am not to blame for the man I became, I was raised from an impressionable age (20) to be a product of the Mighty Coconino.
Whoops…misspelled “mangina.”
Gary,
I just thought ‘manginations’ meant ‘men with imaginary vaginas.’ Either way, I get your point!!
Woodsman
Thank you, Gary.
The ‘context’ and ‘how it relates’ to Yarnell comes out of the discussion below that was a ‘revisit’ of whether or not Jesse Steed’s military background, and (perhaps) an ingrained tendency to ‘obey orders’ really was ( or wasn’t ) a significant causal factor for what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Consensus: Maybe. Maybe not.
Jesse Steed SHOULD have kept those men were they were.
If the credible accounts of the ‘argument’ are true… then he, himself, was telling Marsh that he considered it a ‘dangerous’ move… and it was something he didn’t want to do.
But ( as we all know )… he ended up consenting to do it, anyway.
So whether that ‘consent’ was coming out of pure ‘job security’ concerns ( on his part ), or some ingrained military way of thinking ( or some combination of BOTH ) remains part of the debate.
So it was really just this part that was ‘relevant’ to the discussion below… and that these were the exact ‘words’ being displayed in that actual ‘memorial’ to the GM Hotshots that appeared at the Ranch House Restaurant right after the tragedy…
“You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
No ‘ifs’, ‘ands’ or ‘buts’ there.
It’s also pretty clear that all of the ‘text’ that someone printed out and put under-glass for the PUBLIC to be reading at that memorial was part of some kind of ‘brochure’ that the Prescott Fire Department already had that they WOULD be ‘handing out’ to applicants for jobs with Granite Mountain.
The whole blurb starts with a short explanation of the history of Granite Mountain… and then someone ‘inserted’ that now-famous Bill Buck letter.
If that’s really what that whole thing is there, under-glass at that ‘memorial’… then it’s also a certainty that both Prescott Wildland Divison Chief *and* Eric Marsh had APPROVED all that as the ‘info packet’ to be sent out to potential GM job applicants.
Just more insight into the ‘culture’ of the ‘Prescott Wildland Division’.
They were telling candidates ‘up front’ that this wasn’t just going to be “camping in the woods with your friends”. It was going to be a PSUEDO-MILITARY experience and if you’re not ready for that… don’t even bother to apply.
Darrell Willis himself was some kind of military-wannabe… and has been quoted as saying that when they convinced Jesse Steed to come over to GM from the Prescott National Forest… that that was (quote) “the missing piece to the puzzle”.
In other words… both he and Eric Marsh obviously thought an ‘ex-marine’ was EXACTLY what Granite Mountain needed.
It’s still not clear WHO, exactly, was responsible for putting those ‘memorial sandwich boards’ together that popped up next to the Ranch House Restaurant just days after the tragedy. It appears to have been some members of the Prescott Fire Department who put all that together… and CHOSE the ‘text’ for it.
Ah yes…as they say. I now understand the context here. I have been riding my quad hard and putting it away wet so I am out of the loop.
The Bill Buck letter has been famous now for decades because several hotshot crews post it on their websites and/or send it out to applicants. Some even change some of the paragraphs of the letter for their own reasons. Until very recently the national USFS Fire website even had this letter posted on it and it has been adopted by all of the other agencies who employ hotshot crews.
I have found it to be very interesting that history has forgotten over time who actually wrote the letter….Bill Buck himself. Bill would be very pleased that his letter survived but disappointed WF history has forgotten he wrote it and why. That is why I am here I guess.
And since I am here, I will put in my two cents worth. I firmly believe that both Bob and RTS are anomalies, aberrations and one-offs..not me. I did not make up the “If the hotshot crew boss say’s it’s Easter..the crew starts looking for Easter Eggs…most ricky tick.”, I just embraced it.
There was never any talk of the Abilene Paradox or any of that other bullshit back in my day and probably since then on almost all of the hotshot crews of today. You either did what the crew boss said, when he said to do it, and exactly like he said to do it or it was your last day on the crew…no if’s ands or but’s.
And as I have said over and over again, that has always worked in the history of hotshot crews except for on three fires (the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill) because the hotshot crew boss always knows the best thing to do when split second decisions are made better than anyone else, all things considered.
The reason it didn’t work on those three fires is because their crew bosses were fucked up and so full of hubris they couldn’t think straight. That and promoting themselves and their careers over the safety of their crews.
You have to play the odds…and the odds are the hotshot crew boss is going to get it right, that is why they are the hotshot crew boss. Except in Eric Marsh’s case, he snuck in through the backdoor of the Prescott Fire Department that Willis propped open for him.
Tony Czak (Mormon Lake) was just as fucked up as Eric Marsh, but you will have to buy my book to read the rest of that story. I am going to have to go with what Bob says about Gordon King (El Cariso) since he was before my time.
I am going to say for the umpteenth time on this thread. I have to blame Jesse Steed because the law say’s I do. In my heart, I believe that Steed was just doing what he was supposed to do as a hotshot…follow his crew boss’ orders. His problem was that his crew boss was not qualified or fit to be a crew boss.
Let me try to explain the highly nuanced concept upon which hotshot crews are built upon.
Hotshot crews are made up of ordinary people who can do extraordinary things when they come together as a crew and produce synergy. That is when “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.”
So…hotshot crews are trained and conditioned to believe that they can successfully charge the machine gun nest in broad daylight in open terrain (to use yet another military analogy) while at the same time being led by crew leaders who are FUCKING SMART ENOUGH NOT TO ACTUALLY DO THAT BECAUSE THEY WILL ALL DIE!
That fucking idiot Marsh missed that memo because he was not fit to be in Our House!
Too many “upons”, who give a fuck, you know what I am trying to say…right?
And no, Bill Buck played the part of the ex-Marine (although everyone knows there is no such thing as an “ex” Marine…there are only Marines) R. Lee Ermey so it never occurred to him that anyone who be debating whether or not his letter meant that “You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
That was a base line for Bill…a starting block and a no brainer. He built his hotshot crews with that concept as a given…no questions asked, or you didn’t belong there in the first place. I (and many, many others) literally worshiped the man and what he stood for.
Once again too many errors to read right but I’m sure you get the point.
We were “Bill Buck’s Boys!” And in many ways we could probably also be described as “The Lost Boys!”, since the WF world left us and the “Bill Buck Way” behind. Too bad there was a lone hold out on the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew by the name of Jesse Steed.
And yes I am conflicted…see http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329468
“So…hotshot crews are trained and conditioned to believe that they can successfully charge the machine gun nest in broad daylight in open terrain (to use yet another military analogy) while at the same time being led by crew leaders who are FUCKING SMART ENOUGH NOT TO ACTUALLY DO THAT BECAUSE THEY WILL ALL DIE!”
What a fucking mess! The Yarnell Hill Fire introduced hotshots to the world…in a really bad way.
Oh…and one more thing.
WTKTT said, “The ‘context’ and ‘how it relates’ to Yarnell comes out of the discussion below that was a ‘revisit’ of whether or not Jesse Steed’s military background, and (perhaps) an ingrained tendency to ‘obey orders’ really was ( or wasn’t ) a significant causal factor for what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Consensus: Maybe. Maybe not.”
There is no MAYBE to it. You can take that to the bank and cash it, I guarantee it’s good!
Gary,
This ingrained tendency to obey orders no matter what that Jesse Steed definitely had, was it because he was a hot shot or because he was a Marine or both?
Thanks!
Woodsman
I believe that Jesse Steed would have been capable of making that fatal decision if he would have just been a hotshot…or just a Marine.
Unfortunately, Jesse Steed and the crew were doomed because he was both AND he worked under an egotistical, insecure (VERY insecure) and unforgiving crew boss.
Yes…I am very conflicted.
I want to hug Eric Marsh and cry with him, while at the same time I want to slap the bitch (non-gender specific) out of him.
I don’t think I am ever going to be able to resolve my conflicts over the Yarnell Hill Fire.
There will never be any winners here unless some of this sinks in to some current or future crew boss (hotshot crew or not) or engine foreman or some other WF supervisor out there somewhere and a future Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster may be avoided.
That Buck writing Gary explained very well. Sounds similar to a mining job expectation except the part that you must take orders on a daily basis without questions.. Any miner would have said fuck you, I am on the front and I am the one risking all–no if ands and buts keep the fuck out of my way boss or do the job yourself. But there the bosses just wanted to make sure the miner was happy. And all you needed to do was turn on the Jack Hammer or Jack Leg in those close quarters and he would disappear in a heart beat. As far as women go I saw only one underground at the Church Rock United Nuclear mine on the 900 level. He dad was a judge or she would have never got hired. She wanted to work up to be a miner and those start out as nippers–they bring miners their supplies. But those rolls of wire chain link she was loading into ore cars weight over a 100 pounds and you needed to load a bunch of them since there were too much for her so miners were having to take their time off their face to help her load them and unload them to get them to their working place. She was ok to bring in bolts and steel, but too many complaints from miners and she was taken out of the mine. I can see Gary’s point of eliminating anyone that could not carry 60 pound bags of cement up the hill as being eliminated–since those water bags are heavy and add the men’s packs and tools and then a lunch might break the camel’s back if someone cant deal with 60 pounds. Some of these gals look pretty slight to be doing the heavy wild land work yet they are risking some on the line that I saw were killed as well. I do see a few old gals that are rough enough that maybe they could work out. Looking back, the Mexican miners I worked with in NM at the Fierro mine (no one spoke English there of they did would never let on) would say mala suerte (bad luck) to bring a woman underground. Mom never came into a mine with dad ever so maybe he thought the same. She did “womans” work and physically was more suited to that–cooking and dishes and washing clothes and strapping kids out of line. A more than a few of those I got up until I was 12 though my dad was not so inclined to punishment. He had left home from a farm in Illinois after his dad
whipped him with a trace chain. Those old farmers were harsh with their kids and he had taken off to fish when his step mom had ordered him to chores. That led him to be lenient on his kids I think.
But the point is I do believe too many weaklings and women are allowed on jobs more physically suited to men. I can remember having to cover for some guy that was unable to handle the heavy loads of the mine as well. He did not have the physical ability and took away from my own work to try to cover for him. He lasted longer than I would have thought but then miners were short so they kept him on for longer than they should have. They should have had him sweeping floors or as a honey dipper (shit bucket remover).
So I do see Gary’s point except the stricktly take order thing that makes me cringe. Joy sees were JD says that this whole idea is to isolate Steed and Marsh as to the blame for the deaths without putting any blame further. I have always agreed with JD on that and still do. But we are both civilians, and stand back a ways to listen to you fellows who are real wild land fire fighters. I see how Marsh and Steed under the pressure of “strictly obeying orders” had to set that example to their men and did strictly obey those above them Despite that attitude and Steed’s Marine military attitude you fellows say that they carry the largest part of the blame since they did know they were risking the lives of their men and did kill them by their negligent moves against all common sense and basic safety rules. Well at minimum I think any awards given to bosses above ought to be rescinded. And as far as Marsh and Steed go, the grieving is over–they deserve to be exposed for their careless actions as do any of the other bosses that made such a mess of the Yarnell Wild Land Fire so call incident that we have signs for as we enter our street. “No Access to Incident Site” signs as you enter Lakewood Street to get to our cabin. That sign ought to say NO ACCESS TO SEE WHERE THE WORSE DEBACLE IN WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTING HISTORY KILLED 19 YOUNG WILD LAND FIRE FIGHTERS DUE TO NEGLIGENT ACTIONS OF THEIR BOSSES. Certain individuals do not want you to see and understand what happened there–It might change their agenda, might even get the public angry enough to look closer into the actions that cost those lives and the millions of their tax dollars that were wasted because some in the fire fighting profession were screw ups from day one of Friday, June 28, 2013.
But don’t take my word for it Sonny, I used to think I knew how it should be done, but the Yarnell Hill Fire, Eric Marsh and the crew reset all of the WTF-O-Meters. I guess everything needs to be re-calibrated when the world in turned upside down. What happened on the YHF used to be unthinkable…so we have to rethink everything. Or at least somebody needs to rethink it, I am out of the loop.
**
** SLOWLY WE TURN
This was brought up from down below in a ‘thread’ that was running out of room.
>> On March 19, 2016 at 10:41 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
>>
>> WTKTT and Woodsman,
>> Bob Powers does NOT speak for me. He is NOT my Public Information Officer.
>> I did NOT teach any class(es).
>> I was NOT ‘the ‘instructor’ who ‘invited’ the now-infamous guest-speaker.’
>> Yes, Bob misunderstand my role there.
>> And I posted today…
>> “To your chagrin, the Course title and Instructors will remain anonymous.”
>> On March 19, 2016 at 11:14 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth (WTKTT) replied…
>>
>> I know how ‘exacting’ you can be when it comes to words… so I guess I don’t
>> need to point out that you basically just CONFIRMED that you, yourself, were
>> the ‘guest speaker’.
>>
>> If not… then what WERE you doing there?
>> On March 20, 2016 at 8:19 am, RTS replied…
>>
>> But not exacting enough I guess.
>> So it’s only fair that he gets equal treatment with the others mentioned.
>>
>> So then, the name of the person who was asked to leave the AZ Fire
>> Academy was NOT an Instructor or speaker and all the other iterations
>> you and Woodsman have mentioned and will also remain anonymous.
Color me confused.
So now the person who you have already confirmed was ‘asked to leave’ ( but
by Tony Sciacca and not Todd Abel? ) was NEITHER an ‘instructor’ NOR a ‘guest speaker’?
So beyond the WHO that person was… WHAT were they ( in relation to the Academy )?
What’s left besides ‘instructor’ or ‘guest speaker’?
Student? Staff person? An Embry Riddle University Janitor?
Since you now say this…
“…it’s only fair that he gets equal treatment”
…I guess that eliminates Holly Neill as being the one who was asked to leave?
Definitely a ‘male’?
That being said… something tells me Holly Neill had some kind of ‘role’ in this fiasco that isn’t fully clear yet.
She lives in New Mexico… but there she was at the 2016 AWIMA and pulling shifts at the “Eric Marsh Foundation” merchandising table.
I doubt that she came all the way from New Mexico just to sit at a table and sell T-Shirts.
Was SHE the one who did the REPORTING, here, about what someone was saying in one of the classes… which got the whole ‘ball of consternation’ rolling?
You also didn’t answer the simple question…
If you were neither the ‘instructor’ nor the ‘guest speaker’ nor the person who was actually ‘asked to leave’ the academy… then WHAT were you doing there?
Just taking some classes?
Answering my own question from above.
You (RTS) already explained how Amanda Marsh seemed to even become ‘aware’ of what anyone was saying back in the classrooms while she sat at her T-Shirt Booth…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It all began on Tuesday, March 9th, when former GMHS (2011-2013) and
>> ‘volunteer’ for the Eric Marsh Foundation for WFF’s, Eric Naumetz talked
>> with Amanda Marsh about someone discussing the GMHS actions on
>> the 2012 ‘Nevada Fire (Holloway Fire) and the YH Fire and the GMHS in
>> the classroom.
So it was ( apparently ) Naumetz ( and not Holly Neill ) who did the ‘reporting’ that got the whole ‘ball of consternation’ rolling.
But the other question still stands.
Just for clarity’s sake ( question is directed to RTS )… what were YOU actually doing there at the 2016 AWIMA?
looking at this links-
http://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-legacy-of-leaders-beyond-south-canyon.html
http://universityofhardknocks.academia.edu/FredSchoeffler
and adding the people and pawns in this firefighting community I would guess from my humble opinion it was a Payson local wwtktt-
I will be in Payson soon to meet my deceased father’s best friend and that wooded area of people have told me a lot about the pawns and people in this chess game of firefighting-
There are knights like to me Eric Tarr and Brian Frisby and there is….
(soft smiles)
So maybe RTS knows this Payson local?
I am very sorry to hear how this person was asked to leave and not return to the academy-
but look forward to your presence FRESH START 2017 🙂
that was terrible.
Yarnell should be talked about it—tell the truth about it.
stay on target and let’s learn why these men died-
when I walked with one of the GMHS loved ones not too far back I knew we are doing the RIGHT thing to find clarity…
The men and all deserve it-
The day I only talk about rockhounding and stuff will be the day I make so many people happy but then you see this widow not just here locally but this fire changed us- we are not trying to thrill seek people or guide them to think our way— we let you see it for yourself and make your own assessment with all the documented information out there, We do not deny people but as you heard from RTS THOSE folks out there DO deny people even the ones who hiked with us than later I hear through the grapevine they talk negative about us and again some perceptions I can brush off my shoulder but one comment stuck—one said well you put it on your private photo page the event between you and Sonny and so we saw the perception “danger” not that FACTS are we are two way different people—waaaayyyy different but we are another’s caregivers yet we have been known to whisper to another when bickering “we are each others undertaker”…Sonny is priceless. He will admit his flaws and who he is to you…no sweat…where I find myself like “why air it?” but than I have done the same too— so its perception…lifestyle, etc.
I am glad to see it all worked out in the end but again SOOOOO sorry you were put in that spot-
clarify widow—-so no confusion—Nancy Cameron’s YHF story
I liked the Wildland fire leadership Several names their that I worked with or knew thanks Joy.
I agree Bob…alot of good information on page…my dads best friend was an ol time logger and retired in payson and from payson to cornville to sedona you can learn alot from the locals…we should be talking about these men on these links and honoring their leadership qualities
I agree Bob…a lot of good named leaders and information on page. My dads best friend was an ol logger and retired in payson…and from payson to cornville to sedona you can learn a lot from the locals…we should talk about these men on links and honoring their leadership qualities so people can see how important lces and safety rules mean vs hillbilly common sense lingo. The men in that link have a lot of good facts on yhf and people should know such.
What it reflects is all the really good Hot Shot Superintendents that ran crews for years. None had fatalities and ran their crews under the 10 and 18 that’s the way it was and I believe still is. Many made a name for themselves and their crews. I was proud to work with and know some in my time.
WTKTT,
You won’t get Paul Harvey, ‘the rest of the story’ but you will get more of the story.
The anonymous person met with the AZ Wildfire Academy IC and Deputy IC to ask some questions and briefly discuss the matter after confirming they were aware of the issue.
He asked them (1) what he allegedly said and did and where and (2) what was the YH Fire and GMHS briefing that they gave to everyone else at the AZ Wildfire Academy that he did not receive.
The first question was verified as posted here. And yes, Naumetz was the one that got it rolling by going to Amanda Marsh.
The second answer was very solid and from the heart. The IC accepted total ownership in NOT providing anyone at the Academy with a YH Fire and GMHS briefing. He acknowledged the still-high emotions and the sensitivity of the issue(s).
He thanked the anonymous person for bringing the issue up and the IC promised to address the YH Fire and GMHS briefing in future AZ Wildfire Academies. He also said he would talk to the AZ Wildfire Academy Coordinator about it.
The issue was resolved after their discussions with a good, satisfactory outcome.
Holly Neil was there and I talked with her for awhile – no, make that debated with her – on the entire YH Fire and GMHS debacle. She is still spewing ‘The Party Line’ of blaming management, the GMHS were victims, the toxicology reports are flawed due to a whole host of reasons and thus cannot be relied upon, and much more.
And to your chagrin, my answer to your question is – I was there. I know that begs the question, but that’s all I’m comfortable with revealing. It is what it is.
RTS said:
And yes, Naumetz was the one that got it rolling by going to Amanda Marsh.
MY REPLY: that has been confirmed finally? or is it still maybe it was him or someone else?
To all of you again I say Dale1 is Avery smart person.
He/She is playing a game with his one liners and occasionally added extra letters. His spelling is just fine and is playing with the sentences look at what he has written when he comes on.
He/She is enjoying the little game and using us as pawns.
Bob U will never be a pawn and I know that for a fact. Well what does an old miner cowboy and logger know about life? That much for sure.
Some of my best friends are Cowboys haven’t known many Miners except you and you know a hell of a lot about life.
Bob,
Agreed. Dale1 comes across as some kind of illiterate simpleton with feigned poor grammar skills and such.
IT may be using some here as pawns, but not all.
WWTKTT said: So now the person who you have already confirmed was ‘asked to leave’ ( but
by Tony Sciacca and not Todd Abel? ) was NEITHER an ‘instructor’ NOR a ‘guest speaker’?
MY REPLY- the method Dale1 came in maybe it was not with full report but tidbits and same with RTS and myself but Todd Abel or Holly is not going to come here and talk on topic- but they could offer some input— in my humble thinking on topic-
Nothing lifts my heart more than talking to one of the world’s best fire death investigators.
He is still concerned about the investigation about the deaths of 19 of his fellow wild land fire fighters. Not good for those that want to white wash this thing. I recognize the abilities of men of his ilk–and he is joined with many on this site. He and those here do not allow any room for bull shit. In his way of thinking–Truth or nothing at all. Thank you sir–this world is in need of more like you.
He indeed is a hero–saved a number of green horns like Donut. So have others on this site. Life goes on, but if we can get the truth out we know we have done the right thing. To the bottom of my heart thank all of you from WTKTT to Bob to Gary to RTS and every soul here wanting to get it right so that more know how to stay alive. My son Ted Carlos Gilligan was ever as much a hero as the 19 that died here at Yarnell. He believed in those above him that they would take care for his life. They did not as happened here in Yarnell. He is not replicable but the goons that had no respect for life are. No accolades her for 19 like him, even younger, cause he was 29. But dead he is because of a faulty system. Clean it up!
never can be replaced is what I meant for repicable
I have to admit, I would have never thought that Marsh could risk his mens lives that day. I would not risk Joy as stubborn as she is. Yet Marsh did. Negligent homicide is what the state would have charged me since Joy is not a savvy person involving survival. Call it what you will but I did go back and retrieve Joy from the very spot those men went down. I thought after all that I had the responsibility for her life even though I believe we are free to do what we like. Did I err? I can tell you for sure if I had known those fire men would go down in that canyon this old cowboy, miner and logger would have told them no way. As Mayor Kurkeydayhl said to me common sense goes a long ways. Where was it that day?
Now wild land fire fighters of the world do not hunt me up and mangle me. I am old and weary. But I do think Donut has a point. The rules are hill billy. And I have to agree this way, common sense rules. The 10, 18 and LCES are bull shit if you have no common sense to apply them. But then Mr. Donut we need to know what they are before we make a decision.
This says something for Tony Sciacca and all those involved in the YHF cover up. They will not allow any opinion except their own that follows what makes a shabby fire effort at Yarnell look good. That man that was discharged is more of a hero than Sciacca for expressing his honest opinion. He should be reinstated and Sciacca reprimanded for his behavior. In any university setting any diverse opinion is welcomed. And in a case of public interest, public opinion must be allowed.
Amanda is not in charge of the investigation and has no right to deny freely spoken opinions about Eric Marsh He being a public figure who did lead his men to death has every reason to be scrutinized. To allow this type leadership to continue where men such as Marsh blatantly disobey rules that would have kept his men alive is to assure that more wild land fire fighting lives will be taken. There is more at stake than just an attempt to clean up a bad actor so he is memorialized as a clean hero. Future lives, millions in tax dollars are as much a concern for every citizen as it is for widows and others whom have lost loved ones. Reality and truth brings results despite those that have blinders to the truth.
Charlie said:
And in a case of public interest, public opinion must be allowed.
MY REPLY:
you sure Sonny??? —you are talking about the same town where we were taught this:
http://www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
http://sedonaeye.com/yavapai-county-corruption-alleged/
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YF2oJaZ0o4wJ:dcourier.com/main.asp%3FSectionID%3D36%26SubsectionID%3D73%26ArticleID%3D118915+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
https://www.facebook.com/jack.d.wilson.3/posts/10203754612658217
From the Facebook link Joy just posted…
—————————————————
Jack D. Wilson
September 18, 2014 ·
This article focuses on the Yavapai County Court system. Read it and then read all the comments. Then ask yourself why the Prescott Daily Courier never does investigative journalism.
—————————————————
also Sonny- keep in mind if we allow certain people to be particular in this and allow folks to run people down for being open and honest—what they are DOING is keeping the FOCUS of why we lost these men—my question to those who do that why are you taking emphasis off the important part in this all—if we do that, we will allow the narratives remain IT and the system gets deeper and more insidious than it is NOW. Thank you to the speaker for sharing your views at the academy and I am sorry people are doing the syrup effect versus healing this the right way-
They have their zero tolerance and beliefs and I do too which is to make sure to reach clarity in this…
I’ve established a new watchout situation for myself & those I’m responsible for: Fighting Fire within the confines of the State of Arizona. I have come to the conclusion that the state of Arizona is completely fucked up.
I’m sure there are some good people there but kicking out a speaker for a class at a training academy (that’s funded with tax dollars) because of the protests of a widow? How the fuck did she know what anyone was saying there? Creepy does not begin to describe the situation in Arizona. Nice place to visit but I wouldn’t want to live there.
Uh oh, Bob, looks like you may have stepped in it again……….or you need to find more reliable sources for your research:
“My research from R3 sources says no one was kicked out Instructors or otherwise.”
Woodsman
Depends on the wording and the Timing the added speaker was not an instructor
and the Speaker was done and was leaving any way.
The discussion was over and they were not stopped during the discussion.
I stepped in what I knew I was stepping in.
Keep one foot in the black always have an out.
Yes sir, one foot in the black!
Reply to Woodsman post on March 19, 2016 at 4:09 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I’ve established a new watchout situation for myself & those
>> I’m responsible for: Fighting Fire within the confines of the State
>> of Arizona. I have come to the conclusion that the state of
>> Arizona is completely fucked up.
Surely you didn’t need this latest ‘event’ to convince you of THAT.
I would have thought you would have ALREADY fully understood that if you ever, ever ,ever, ever find yourself being assigned to a fire in the State of Arizona… be SURE to put your best ‘game-face’ on… and WATCH OUT!
Better yet ( and just for safety’s sake )… just UTF those orders.
Better safe than sorry.
Holly there? Holly was deceptive with Joy, and now with the world? Nice person but bad acting–is it because she is in cohorts with Amanda?
Charlie said: Holly was deceptive with Joy, and now with the world?
MY REPLY: incorrect- your perception. I won’t engage on topic Sonny- question to you Sonny- you a couple cans short of a six pack? or how empty is Jim tonight?
Come on really….why talk about Holly like that- like I told her and Dr. Ted Putnam and I will state to you too—- Holly is in this to help all – not an agenda or to seem deceptive— she explained herself to me and I am good with it and as for her knowing others—who cares— I encourage togetherness.
BS right away. Holly missed the boat and I won’t go along with her and Amanda in their agenda to rewrite history to make Amanda’s Eric look good.
are you just sore because you learned she was near in Prescott and did not say hi to you and others that have grown to enjoy her and Wayne?
that’s what it sounds like to me
Hopefully, bringing this to the top because it was way lost in the weeds.
WTKTT,
On March 17th, you posted: ‘The very idea that an accredited ‘Wildland Training Academy’ would try, in any way, to establish ANY past fire fatality as ‘off limits for discussion’ is absurd.”
Yes, it is absurd, however, it did occur on Wednesday, March 10th, when Amanda Marsh called one of the AZ Fire Academy Course instructors to complain about someone talking about the GMHS and the YH Fire on Tuesday in one of the classrooms.
It all began on Tuesday, March 9th, when former GMHS (2011-2013) and ‘volunteer’ for the Eric Marsh Foundation for WFF’s, Eric Naumetz talked with Amanda Marsh about someone discussing the GMHS actions on the 2012 ‘Nevada Fire (Holloway Fire) and the YH Fire and the GMHS in the classroom. (To your chagrin, the Course title and Instructors will remain anonymous).
Early the following morning, Amanda Marsh called one of those Course Instructors, ranting and raving about the audacity of allowing someone to talk about the YH Fire and the GMHS, and specifically Eric Marsh.
The Course Instructor said he explained to her that there was a vast gulf of different perspectives and perceptions on those issues based on the myriad of WFF experience levels and much, much more in response to her protests and accusations.
The upshot was, she still feels Eric Marsh was/is a hero, a victim of the big-bad-fire, and it was nobody’s fault. And in a way, I get that. Then again, living in denial is not healthy nor conducive to healing.
Amanda Marsh also went to the AZ Wildfire Academy Director Tony Sciacca with the same complaints. He decided that this mischief-maker would have to leave the Academy because of what he said about the YH Fire and the GMHS. This was done WITHOUT getting ‘the other side of the story’ from the miscreant.
This YH Fire and GMHS offender was notified on Wednesday evening and left the Academy on Thursday.
And I am siding with Bob Powers on the entire ‘dale1′ debacle about his incoherent claims of an instructor getting removed from the academy or whatever he said.
WTKTT,
Clarification point on the above post.
There was NO YH Fire and/or GMHS briefing given to any of the AZ Wildfire Academy Cadre, Instructors, Students, and/or Participants to avoid discussing the YH Fire and/or the GMHS in spite of the recognized – but not discussed- sensitivity of the issues.
Yes there is a sensitivity since a movie is being made. But aren’t movies generally laden with fiction? Lets paint Marsh as a clean hero who by the will of God fucked up royally and killed those under him. Steed as we supposedly hear was in argument with the bad judgement of his superior officer. Somehow he went along knowing he might kill his men.
You know when we met Marsh he was quite the nice person–a gentleman by all I could tell. But being a nice guy and what he caused his men to do against all good sense and going against all 10, 18 and LCES in every count and with a history of this and by his own lone survivors account (hill billy rules) I have had to succumb to Bob’s opinion to a great degree. Bob is an old time wild land fire fighter and one of the best by studying his wisdom. I used to think Marsh had a pass since I felt that someone above him surely drove him down and so his accountability for the deaths of those under him lay in a heavy way above him. I still think there is some accountability beyond him. But in truth he did cause the death of his men by ordering them into a no win situation against all safety rules of fire fighting. I am not a fire fighter but have gleaned enough from you professionals that are to know this disaster was entirely a sacrifice of men. I can’t believe Marsh intentionally killed those youngsters. But I can believe he knew he was rolling dice and looking for a 7 but got snake eyes. He is certainly guilty of gross negligence concerning the lives of the 18 below him–something that future fire supers need to know so they take care first of the lives of their men before trying to defend dead structures.
I suppose you could say Marsh went his way, not proper wild land fire fighting technique, and that cost him and his men their lives.
Astounding.
I’m assuming the ‘course instructor’ that Amanda called to complain to was NOT the same ‘course instructor’ who actually dared to talk about a Wildland Fire at an accredited Wildland Firefighting Academy?
Two different ‘course instructors’ involved there, yes?
WTKTT,
The alleged miscreant was invited into the class to speak about WF, leadership, human factors, and such by the Course Instructors. He was NOT an Instructor.
Marty Cole, AZ Fire Academy OPS called the Course Instructor AFTER Amanda Marsh, inquiring about what this miscreant had done to pressure the Course Instructor into allowing him into the class and what the mischief-maker had done to coerce his way into the class.
The Course Instructor told him they had time in their schedule and invited him into the class, without any pressure. Imagine that!
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 19, 2016 at 2:05 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The Course Instructor told him they had time in their schedule
>> and invited him into the class, without any pressure. Imagine that!
The HOME page for this “Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management” ‘academy’ deal is here…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/
At the very, very TOP of the very first page of their own website…
——————————————————————————
Our academy is a premier training venue for the Southwest. The purpose of our academy is to “provide training that meets or exceeds the National Wildfire Coordinating Group and Federal Emergency Management Administration standards” to provide the highest quality training in an incident management setting offering our students the opportunity to establish a mentoring network.
True to our mission – that every firefighter is safe and comes home – every time. We are a non-profit 501 (c) 3 agency that is supported by grants and donations.
——————————————————————————
Nowhere on their website do they give any DETAIL about their ‘grants’ or their ‘donations’.
No sources or amounts listed ( as in… whether the ‘grants’ they receive are from local, state, federal taxpayer dollars… or perhaps all three ).
And also on their own HOME page… they publish the following list of all of the local, state and federal level ‘agencies’ and ‘companies’ that contribute either MONEY, or PERSONNEL, or just general SUPPORT to this AWIMA…
——————————————————————————
Apache Sitgreaves National Forest
Arizona Public Service
Arizona State Forestry
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Bureau of Land Management
Captain Crossfit
Central Yavapai Fire District
Chino Valley Fire District
Coconino National Forest
Coronado National Forest
Craig Brown
Daisy Mountain Fire District
Embry Riddle Aeronautical University
Fairmount Fire District
Fort McDowell Indian Community
Gila National Forest
Gila River Indian Community
Glendale Fire Department
Golder Ranch Fire District
Goodyear Fire Department
Grand Canyon National Park
Groom Creek Fire District
Highlands Fire District
Kaibab National Forest
Lessons Learned Center
National Interagency Fire Center
National Oceanic & Atmospheric Admin.
National Park Service
Native Air
Phoenix Fire Department
Pinewood Fire District
Prescott Fire Department
Prescott Firefighters Charities
Prescott National Forest
Rio Rico Fire District
San Juan County Emergency Services
Sedona Fire District
State Farm Insurance
Summit Fire District
Tempe Fire Department
Tonto National Forest
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
USFS Region 3
Williamson Valley Group
Yavapai County Board of Supervisors
——————————————————————————
The “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters” is conspicuously missing from this list.
Unless you want to count the money it cost them to have a ‘merchandise booth’ at the 2016 AWIMA as some kind of ‘contribution’…
From the AWIMA ‘Vendor Information’ page…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Vendor-Information.html
—————————————————————
2016 Vendor Information
Register online from our home page: www (dot) azwildfireacademy (dot) org
EXHIBITION DATES: March 5-11, 2016
Set up March 4 after noon
Tear down March 11 before noon
MENU (booths spaces are 10′ x 10′, with one 8′ table and two chairs)
Exhibit Space (indoor or outdoor): $350.00
Additional Space: $200.00
Additional Table: $35.00
Additional Person (2 included w/ reg.): $100.00
Contact us: [email protected] / (928) 442-3563
—————————————————————-
The “Eric Marsh Foundation” Facebook page says they were the ones sharing THEIR ‘booth’ ( the one they paid for ) with the “Hike Shack”.
This is also their PUBLIC Facebook page that listed former GMHS Eric Naumetz, ex-firefighter Holly Neill and Eric Marsh’s father John Marsh as some of the ‘voluteers’ manning the booth…
NOTE: The Foundation spelled Holly Neill’s name wrong in their post. It’s “Holly Neill”, not “Holly Niell”,,,
—————————————————————-
Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters
March 12 at 3:09am ·
( PHOTO OF THE ERIC MARSH FOUNDATION MERCHANDISE
BOOTH AT THE 2016 AWIMA.)
We clearly need a banner! We shared our booth at the Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy with the Hike Shack and our good friend Amanda Lane. I am so grateful to everyone who came out to volunteer at the booth. Eric Naumetz, Rex Naumetz, Karen Norris, Tim Armenta, Holly Niell and John Marsh are rock stars! I also want to thank Amy Armenta for all of her hard work and dedication to the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters.
—————————————————————-
QUESTION: Do you have any idea who actually WON their “2015 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year” award and/or their “2015 Herb McElwee Loyalty Award” this year?
They ( the AWIMA ) have posted photos from the regular/annual ‘dinner’ which took place in the middle of this year’s 2016 ‘Academy’ event… and said the awards were given out… but then inexplicably failed to say WHO the awards were given TO this year.
It’s almost like they are AFRAID to say who they gave their awards to, or something.
WTKTT,
It went to Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hot Shots.
“The 2015 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year was awarded to Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hotshots. Frisby and the Hotshots received this award for their commitment to community service, going above and beyond the call of duty and contributions to the fire service.”
http://myradioplace.com/news/tribute-dinner-held-during-az-wildfire-and-incident-management-academy/
Thank you.
No wonder they still haven’t even ‘announced’ it on their OWN Facebook page or on their own website.
They actually did get around ( just the other day ) to ‘announcing’ who won their ‘2016 Wildland Photo of the Year contest…
————————————————-
2016 Photo Contest winner Shaun Jones, Congratulations!
————————————————-
…but still absolutely NOTHING ( from them, on their own public website or other public pages ) about who they gave their own “Southwest Firefighter of the Year Award” too.
I wonder if Frisby was even there to ‘accept’ it and, if so, what he might have actually SAID.
WTKTT,
Frisby was NOT there to accept the award and I don’t know if any other BRHS did in his stead.
I think it was a bribe for them being directed NOT to speak about the YH Fire per the USDA OGC and NOT being allowed to participate in any of the mandated YH Fire Staff Ride developments.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on March 19, 2016 at 7:42 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Frisby was NOT there to accept
>> the award and I don’t know if
>> any other BRHS did in his stead.
Well… then that actually begs the question… did the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization actually even ‘acknowledge’ or ‘accept’ the award at all?
I can’t find anything that says they DID.
From their perspective… this was probably the last thing they needed or wanted.
More ‘attention’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I think it was a bribe for them being
>> directed NOT to speak about the
>> YH Fire per the USDA OGC and
>> NOT being allowed to participate
>> in any of the mandated YH Fire
>> Staff Ride developments
Ah… yes… the old “Thanks for keeping your mouths shut” award.
It makes sense to me now WHY there is/was no PUBLIC announcement this year on their part of who was getting the award.
They didn’t’ want the publicity.
The AWIMA has ALWAYS gotten around to doing a ‘wrap up’ on their website of the most recent ‘Academy’ ( even though it takes them a while ) and there is a special page where they ‘detail’ who has been getting these “Southwest Firefighter of the Year Awards”.
That page is here…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Wildland-Firefighter-of-the-Year.html
—————————————-
2015 – ??????????
2014 – Greg Smith – for Ironwood Hotshots
2013 – Gary Cordes – for Yarnell rescues
2012 – Scott Glaspie – Coronado NF
—————————————-
It will be interesting to see if/when they even bother updating this page to say that the 2015 award went to the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’.
Added tidbit —All the people their for Training and most of the instructors were being paid by Government agencies from Tax dollars.
That’s a hell of a lot of money for a 5 day course.
Looks like lessons learned has not reached Arizona yet
I doubt the Feds are that restrictive.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 19, 2016 at 5:49 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Added tidbit —All the people
>> their for Training and most of
>> the instructors were being paid by
>> Government agencies from Tax dollars.
>> That’s a hell of a lot of money for
>> a 5 day course.
Yep… and how would most of those ‘agencies’ feel about finding out that ‘guest speakers’ who were trying to impart the most information they could and help people get the most out of their ‘taxpayer’ dollars were being ‘edited’ and ‘asked to leave’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Looks like lessons learned has not
>> reached Arizona yet I doubt the
>> Feds are that restrictive.
The HOME page for this “Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management” ‘academy’ deal is here…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/
At the very, very TOP of the very first page of their own website…
——————————————
Our academy is a premier training venue for the Southwest. The purpose of our academy is to “provide training that meets or exceeds the National Wildfire Coordinating Group and Federal Emergency Management Administration standards” to provide the highest quality training in an incident management setting offering our students the opportunity to establish a mentoring network.
True to our mission – that every firefighter is safe and comes home – every time. We are a non-profit 501 (c) 3 agency that is supported by grants and donations.
—————————————————
Key phrase from this ‘mission statement’…
“our mission – that every firefighter is safe and comes home – every time.”
Really? EVERY firefighter? EVERY time?
Then I have a ‘news flash’ for them…
In order to even get near ‘accomplishing’ that ‘mission’… you are going to have to allow full and free discussion about incidents where firefighters did NOT ‘come home’… a LOT of them… and right there in your own backyard.
The ‘non-instructor, guest speaker being booted from the academy because of the protests of a widow (who apparently has an effective system of monitoring in place and connections) is an entire story in and of itself.
John Dougherty is brilliant! It would take several lifetimes of several journalists to even publish all of the relevant stories produced by this format. Amazing.
Woodsman
No wonder BRHS want to stay out of the lime light. They are gagged then ragged. Awards? I hope those awards were not for any of they work they were doing at Yarnell. except Brian Frisby did deserve recognition for saving the green horn fire fighter Donut.
We tout the GMHS like they did a lot of work. Truth is there was not a lot they could do. That fire went ballistic and their work was cut short because of it. We watched their action, never saw the hundred yards of line as they cut but did see that they were at rest except for the hike up the mountain to the fire line. That hundred yards of line is still there among the boulders–out of the restricted area so maybe one of the pros will give you a good estimate by looking at the actual site.
The GMHS did look like ants below so it was some hike on that hot day, even as early as we passed them they looked exhausted from the strenuous hike up the hill. Know you wild land fire fighters let me know how fast 17 men can clean out a hundred yards of line in fairly sparse manzanita. They did cut a few prickly pear cactus and a few scrub oak of about 2 inch diameter–maybe three of both along with manzanita here and there among the boulders on a steep-45% decline. I would estimate maybe a half hour to one hour–does that seem reasonable?
Now BR must have done more. I don’t know who was doing the back burn above the Shrine and the line work in that area and Sesame, but we keep hearing reports that BR was in the area. Who else was in the Shrine area? If they had anything to do with that burn it could have been a mistake. The guy taking the video in that area ought to be brought up by the investigators to see about that back burn. It is crucial information considering how drastic that wind was while that was going on. But then apparently the investigators are not interested in such information. Let them talk to Sonny (me) and Joy–we sure as hell saw the video but been able to retrieve it same as when we saw that the 320 acre restricted area was actually restricted on June 16, 2013 by what I thought was actually done by a drunk official writing in the wrong date. This document was on line and we saw it after we came back from evacuation, yet a few days after seeing it more than once we could no longer find it on line. Now you see it, now you do not game.
Yes do hang your heads firemen who receive any award for the Yarnell incident. Nineteen wild land fire fighters dead, half the residences of Yarnell and a number of of Peeples Valley residences burned to the ground including the historic Bar A Ranch, 84 residents from Yarnell dead since the fire, untold weeping and sadness from the loss of the fire fighters and residents, millions and tax dollars squandered here–and people have the audacity to accept awards for their efforts here. Shit!
–aren’t we the hikers and eyewitnesses the ones who were asked to hike people like the nation’s top fire fatality investigator and others that were non-media related even retired fbi/cia folks and law enforcement and even ones that was on the scene so that tells the hikers some are not out to be someone’s new near dear friend and as well some of these people on that side of things versus remaining neutral and open and seeing all sides than it falls into my mind collaborative information to create and orchestrate a narrative that fits. If it was my husband that was the one who had that horrific afternoon I would know in it without any authority telling me that there will be many perspectives and perceptions and if I did not like an area that was speaking that did not provide sources and documents to at least state that in article that this is in your humble opinion but here we have a serious situation because why again is it a certain person placed an article out over at Bill Gabbert’s not showing where or how or proof of such conclusions to the article- leaving it out yet this person is a dear one to another? BUT say anyone on here or at that academy or anywhere speaks about the GMHS —why are we shunned and not them? It really is not healthy to be so particular in who can speak—cuts out the freedom of speech—cuts out gaining clarity and truths—cuts out individualism and people being who they are— I get RTS on his statement that he gets the sensitivity of it but what about the sensitivity of the loved ones of the GMHS who came to us the hikers- I got very very special videos from that area and let me state one widow or two does not speak for them all— is what we have been told- without revealing a person and they know who they stated— “to this day I thank you both from my heart, you have never left those boys from the very start…” that was just this month too- so side note: AND WE WON’T EVER STOP TRYING TO REACH CLARITY-
wwtktt- Cavalier sold- did you note that. right next to Helm’s where staff rides are being done-the ol’ burro trail is now an investment co out of Texas…
Again this is a very very horrific event that took place but to not be able to talk about it from every which way we can is not healthy too- we all have to be able to tee it up and in our own individual way not this way or that way….the way we were born to be— ourselves-
That kind of thinking just keeps the missing elements in hiding until they are way old or way drunk- or read woodsman poem…
I do not agree world with certain people stopping people from sharing and more so on that professional platform…yes heroes they were and are…but there is serious things to talk about to all in the world not just in the profession-
also without BRHS and so many others that were on the fire during crucial moments—without their testimonies—it is not even properly assessed yet the YHF so give us the information so we can assess it—-You are right wwtktt—why not talk about a wildfire at the wildfire academy—makes sense to me.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 19, 2016 at 1:47 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> here we have a serious situation because why again is it a certain
>> person placed an article out over at Bill Gabbert’s not showing
>> where or how or proof of such conclusions to the article- leaving
>> it out yet this person is a dear one to another? BUT say anyone on
>> here or at that academy or anywhere speaks about the GMHS —why
>> are we shunned and not them? It really is not healthy to be so
>> particular in who can speak—cuts out the freedom of speech—cuts
>> out gaining clarity and truths—cuts out individualism and people
>> being who they are—
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> wwtktt- Cavalier sold- did you note that. right next to Helm’s
>> where staff rides are being done-the ol’ burro trail is now
>> an investment co out of Texas…
Which actual ‘parcel number’ are you referring to?
As of today… Yavapai County Assesor’s office still shows that north half of section 9, Township 10W Range 05W ( Parcel number 203-02-002 and the land that is due north of the new Arizona Park ) as belonging to Maughan Ranch…
Parcel Number: 203-02-002
Owner: MAUGHAN 2007 REVOCABLE TRUST
Owner’s Mailing Address: PO BOX 29041, Phoenix, AZ, 850389041
Secondary Owner: MAUGHAN REX AND RUTH TTEES
And parcel number 203-05-oo3M, where the Helm’s cattle pond is located and where the Staff Ride begins ( at the exact spot where DPS Ranger 58 Helicopter ‘set down’ on June 30, 2013 to let DPS medic Eric Tarr out in order to hike west to deployment site and confirm the deaths ) is still listed as belonging to “HELM HUGH L AND DIANE J”.
And parcel 203-05-003H, which is just east of the ‘burro trail’ that leads away from the cattle pond is still showing owner as “BALUCO DECEDENT’S TRUST” with a secondary owner of “DE WASSON MARIA LUISA VALLE TTEE”.
The parcel that contains the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area, where the Granite Mountain vehicles and the Blue Ridge vehicles were initially all ‘parked’ the morning of June 30, 2013 is still owned by “WHITEHEAD LIMITED PARTNERSHIP”…
Parcel Number: 203-05-004
Owner: WHITHEAD LIMITED PARTNERSHIP
Owner’s Mailing Address: 18950 S. WALNUT GROVE CEMETERY RD.
KIRKLAND, AZ 86332
Secondary Owner: N/A
The “WHITEHEAD LIMITED PARTNERSHIP” ( at that exact Kirland address ) changed it’s name in 2014 to the “WHITEHEAD LAND AND CATTLE CO. LP”.
The ‘owners’ are ( as they were before ) JOHN R. and PHILIP C. WHITEHEAD.
From the State of Arziona’s PUBIC Corporation records…
—————————————————————————-
Arizona State File ID: 2026307
Description: Limited Partnership
Status: Active
Name: THE WHITEHEAD LAND AND CATTLE CO., LP
Address 1: 18950 S. WALNUT GROVE CEMETERY ROAD
City: KIRKLAND
State: AZ
ZIP: 86332-
Registered Date: 12/29/2014
Agent/Owner Information
Agent ID, Type, Fullname, Address, City, State, ZIP, Phone
1332161, Service of Process, JOHN R. WHITEHEAD, 18950 S. WALNUT GROVE CEMETERY ROAD, KIRKLAND, AZ, 86332, N/A
1332163, General Partner, JOHN R. WHITEHEAD, HC 67 BOX 927, KIRKLAND, AZ ,86332, N/A
1332166 General Partner, PHILIP C. WHTEHEAD, PO BOX 240, KIRKLAND, AZ, 86332, N/A
Registration Information Received: 12/29/2014
————————————————————————–
Are you talking about the parcel that is just SOUTH of the Boulder Springs Ranch, but also just EAST of the Arizona State Trust Land?
The one that ‘changed hands’ just at the end of last December for $95,000 and is now owned by the “731 CORP, LLC.” located in BEAUMONT, TEXAS?
This one?…
Parcel Number: 203-15-009
Owner: 731 CORP LLC
Owner’s Mailing Address: 148 S DOWLEN RD #662, BEAUMONT, TX 777071755
Secondary Owner: N/A
Recorded Documents and Sale(s)
Date, Book/Page Type, Cost
12/31/2015, 2015-0061631, Warranty Deed, $95,000
09/30/2005, 4317/380, Warranty Deed, $241,735
The “731 CORP, LLC” is a business registered in Texas and associated with someone named Richard Scott.
This says something for Tony Sciacca and all those involved in the YHF cover up. They will not allow any opinion except their own that follows what makes a shabby fire effort at Yarnell look good. That man that was discharged is more of a hero than Sciacca for expressing his honest opinion. He should be reinstated and Sciacca reprimanded for his behavior. In any university setting any diverse opinion is welcomed. And in a case of public interest, public opinion must be allowed.
Amanda is not in charge of the investigation and has no right to deny freely spoken opinions about Eric Marsh He being a public figure who did lead his men to death has every reason to be scrutinized. To allow this type leadership to continue where men such as Marsh blatantly disobey rules that would have kept his men alive is to assure that more wild land fire fighting lives will be taken. There is more at stake than just an attempt to clean up a bad actor so he is memorialized as a clean hero. Future lives, millions in tax dollars are as much a concern for every citizen as it is for widows and others whom have lost loved ones. Reality and truth brings results despite those that have blinders to the truth.
RTS,
you said: “And I am siding with Bob Powers on the entire ‘dale1′ debacle about his incoherent claims of an instructor getting removed from the academy or whatever he said.”
I am trying to take you seriously but you are making it extremely difficult. I find you inexplicably disingenuous.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Disingenuous? Really?
“Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.”
A plethora of synonyms include, but are not limited to: Lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere; dishonest; untruthful; false; deceitful; duplicitous; lying; mendacious; hypocritical; cunning; feigned; indirect; guileful; oblique; shifty; sly; two-faced; underhanded.
Same or similar dictionary and/or sources here?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disingenuous
Have you succumbed to the ‘Perception Is Reality’ crowd? Whatever floats your boat.
I think I’ll seek some comfort and solace in filing a ‘Hurt Feelings Report.’
RTS,
I’m basing my assessment on you initially providing all of the excellent detailed information on the ‘academy incident within an incident.’ and ending it with: “And I am siding with Bob Powers on the entire ‘dale1′ debacle about his incoherent claims of an instructor getting removed from the academy or whatever he said.”
It looks like the entire ‘dale1 debacle’ was correct after all. A person that was addressing the students of a class at the academy WAS asked to leave or one could say ‘kicked out.’ According to you without even hearing his side of the story. (you know a lot about this…was it you? I could believe that as you ARE sincere about firefighter safety!)
That all sounded disingenuous or insincere to me that after you corroborated dale1’s assertion by explaining what happened, you turned around and said you were ‘with Bob’ and it’s bogus. Didn’t make sense and since I think you are fairly smart, I believe you were being ‘shifty.’
Woodsman
Woodsman,
>> On March 13, 2016 at 11:16 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> didd u go to the ariz wildfire academmy …. see wat Todd Abel did lasst week…./?
>>
>> Then on March 15, 2016 at 5:47 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> tod abel kickced a instructor out for talking trash../.…?..
Absolutely and unequivocally false regarding an instructor and regarding Todd Abel.
RTS:
Mouse nuts.
So it wasn’t an actual instructor but someone with instructor like tendencies that was invited by the instructor to speak in front of a class of students he was instructing for the purpose of adding to the instructive discussion taking place at the time at an academy……………..but it wasn’t an instructor so ‘technically’ Dale1 was wrong. Ok.
It wasn’t Todd Abel, that booted the non-instructor instructor-invited guest speaker that spoke to the class in an instructor-like manner (but he was not an instructor-I cannot express this any clearer), it was Tony Sciattica (sp?) who asked the invited guest non-instructor to leave, or booted the non-instructor from the academy…….so, technically Dale1’s statement was “Absolutely and unequivocally false.” Ok.
I’ll give you a choice between feigned & oblique.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
That’s a Hobson’s Choice. Thanks, I’ll pass. I take neither one.
I’m going to speculate that if it wasn’t for Dale1 posting what he did we would probably never have known any of this happened. It would have been added to the growing list of facts & oddities hidden from public view pertaining to the Yarnell Hill fire.
Tree shaking!
Woodsman
On March 19, 2016 at 7:48 pm, RTS said…
>> On March 13, 2016 at 11:16 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> didd u go to the ariz wildfire academmy ….
>> see wat Todd Abel did lasst week…./?
>>
>> Then on March 15, 2016 at 5:47 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> tod abel kickced a instructor out for talking trash../.…?..
>>
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Absolutely and unequivocally false regarding
>> an instructor and regarding Todd Abel.
Double Mouse Nuts.
C’mon… RTS… the minute you posted that “Here’s what happened but I am with Bob about dale1” message… you KNEW you were going to get ‘pushback’.
That was a ‘WTF’ ending to an otherwise very informative post.
Fine… ‘dale1’ seemed unaware that this ‘person’ was just an ‘invited speaker’ and not a full blown ‘instructor’.
Fine… ‘dale1’ was assuming that if anyone was being ‘asked to leave’ the Academy then the person who was the IC and running the whole fucking thing ( Todd Abel ) must have either been the one who was making it happen OR had knowledge it was happening.
And I’ll double down on that last ‘fine point’.
If Todd Abel did NOT know this kind of ‘frap’ was in progress at his own ‘Incident’… and his own ‘Academy’ ended up minus a guest speaker for dubious reasons… then someone should take his IC rating away and send him back to his ‘taskbook’… yes?
Bob Powers had already ‘announced’ that you were THERE at the 2016 AWIMA. He said you were an ‘instructor’ this year…
>> On March 13, 2016 at 4:37 pm, Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Would also Add that our friend RTS was there as a
>> Instructor all last week.
What class(es) did you teach?
Were YOU the ‘instructor’ who ‘invited’ the now-infamous guest-speaker… or did Bob misunderstand your role there and YOU were actually this ‘guest speaker’?
WTKTT and Woodsman,
Bob Powers does NOT speak for me. He is NOT my Public Information Officer.
I did NOT teach any class(es).
I was NOT ‘the ‘instructor’ who ‘invited’ the now-infamous guest-speaker.’
Yes, Bob misunderstand my role there.
And I posted today “To your chagrin, the Course title and Instructors will remain anonymous.”
Remember, it’s double mouse nuts, so get over it. In other words, it’s NO big deal, ya know, like how big are a mouse’s nuts?
So saith Robert the Second
I know how ‘exacting’ you can be when it comes to words… so I guess I don’t need to point out that you basically just CONFIRMED that you, yourself, were the ‘guest speaker’.
If not… then what WERE you doing there?
WTKTT,
But not exacting enough I guess. So it’s only fair that he gets equal treatment with the others mentioned.
So then, the name of the person who was asked to leave the AZ Fire Academy was NOT an Instructor or speaker and all the other iterations you and Woodsman have mentioned and will also remain anonymous.
RTS,
you said:
“WTKTT,
The alleged miscreant was invited into the class to speak about WF, leadership, human factors, and such by the Course Instructors. He was NOT an Instructor.”
Just above you said:
“So then, the name of the person who was asked to leave the AZ Fire Academy was NOT an Instructor or speaker and all the other iterations you and Woodsman have mentioned (snip)”
What is YOUR term for an individual that, according to you, “was invited into the class to speak about WF, leadership, human factors, and such by the Course Instructors.”?? You just said ‘invited into the class to speak.’
I don’t really care who it was, although I’m curious. The main point is that the ‘wagons are still circled’ by the protectors of facts about the Yarnell Hill fire.
Ok, I’ll choose: lacking in frankness.
Woodsman
RTS,
I don’t think you should have discredited Dale1’s statements because it turns out he was basically correct. Your protests on the minute details being wrong were what I considered ‘mouse nuts.’
I had a hunch the non-instructor instructor-invited guest speaker was you. If I was correct about that, I wanted to give you credit for talking about what needs to be talked about if the wildfire system has any chance in hell of learning from the tragedy at Yarnell Hill. It makes it nigh impossible when you launch your sensitivity accusation campaign to get to the point of being able to give credit where credit is due. This time I did find out what had happened, so thank you.
Woodsman
I will just add it was my Miss Speak and misunderstanding as to what RTS was doing there.
My understanding he is part of the Type 1 and Type 2 teams in Arizona and in place with the Federal Wild Land Fire System as a Accredited Safety Officer available to Teams through out the Nation.
Was he there as a Safety Officer out side the Instructors but part of the team run School?
He will have to answer that question. if he wants.
Again I just knew he was there and assumed he was a instructor.
This entire Academy is not a Federal but a Private/State run that is sanctioned as approved courses for the S-Courses. I doubt that they want the Course and Academy to be shown in a bad light. This whole thing will leak out as it is here and I would hope the NIFC will have a discussion with the Organizers.
What is the biggest way to get your Class attention?
In Fire safety its the most current Fires that have produced Fire Fatalities.
Discussing current fires with FF who are aware of the names and dates is what Lessons learned is all about. Most of the older fires have been discussed over and over the newer ones still have questions and discussions to create understanding.
To refuse the students the time and discussion on any Fire including Yarnell is a disservice to Wild Land Fire Fighters.
In my day we always brought up controversial subject matter we were encouraged to do so and create discussion that was positive to change. Identifying factors that caused a Accident or a Death.
The late 60’s and 70’s it was the Loop Fire and several other fires that were current. After 94 it was the Storm king mountain. Now it is the Yarnell and most recent this last years tragedies You can not stop it and you should not try.
There is no true lesions learned when you will stop discussion to protect others. Shame on this Academy and its leaders.
Bob,
Miss Speak, ey?
Does your wife know about her?
I am NOT on any Type 1 or 2 IMT.
Stick foot in mouth and kick ass at the same time.
You are listed as a available person for added or fill in on fires in the R3 and NIFC overhead. Not assigned directly to a Team. Sorry– if I am wrong again please correct me. I should have known better………
Bob
Wilma’s husband can help bring clarity to topic…he was there
“Wilmaaaaaaa….”
YES FRED.
Joy,
Fred who? He was at the academy? A firefighter? Instructor?
Woodsman
Is it just me… or does anyone else get the impression that some people simply do not have enough keys on their keyboards to actually communicate clearly these days… or something.
The following keys are apparently not working: J,K,Q,V,X, & Z,,,,,,,,,,,and the A-key is clearly sticking….
I’m waiting patiently for information and clarity from ‘Wilma’s Fred.’
Woodsman
Woodsman your to young to remember the TV show with Wilma and Fred.
Fred was always hollering at Wilma————-
Amanda has been a problem at getting at the truth from the get go. Her disregard for keeping cell phone, her absolute regard for a man that led 18 to their deaths, and her ability to influence people to her biased opinion makes me shutter. The lives of future wild land fire fighters depends upon the truth and the errors men such as Eric made in their feeble efforts at wild land fire fighting and keeping their men alive must be revealed else the same sorry methods of wild land fire fighting continues. More dead fire fighters because people want to defend their egos, friends, lovers, and cronies as heroes and paint the bad methods as wonderful.
The 2011 Horseshoe 2 Fire on the Coronado NF, in the very steep and very rugged Chiricahua Mountains of southeastern AZ, was the fire that MANY HS Supts. repeatedly brought up after the fatal 30 June 2013 YH Fire fatalities.
http://narcamoorecraig.blogspot.com/2011/06/walt-andersons-photos-of-horseshoe-two.html
Some good photos of the fuels, topography, and fire behavior in the above link.
I recently talked with a few of the HS Supts. (who will remain anonymous) that were on the Horseshoe 2 Fire and worked with Marsh and the GMHS and they recounted the following:
Similar to the YH Fire, Marsh was the DIVS and Steed was the Acting GMHS Supt.
Under the direction of DIVS Marsh, the GMHS had been constructing fireline and burning out in heavy ladder fuels along a very steep and very narrow, razorback ridge.
The dropoffs on each side of the razorback ridge were dangerously and precipitously steep, essentially foreclosing any safe possibilities of safely firing AND holding the firing operation.
In other words, if a slopover(s) or spot fire(s) occurred below them they could NOT safely engage the spotfires and would have to just let them get big, even with air support. Air support without ground personnel is worthless.
DIVS Marsh told these two HS Supts. (one form CA and one from AZ) that he was “HANDING [THEM] A SHIT SANDWICH.” Both HS Supts. told DIVS Marsh that he was NOT “handing [them] a shit sandwich” because neither one of the HS Supts. would accept the assignment under these conditions.
These two HS Supts. refused the assignment and so this was a “Turn Down” as defined in the IRPG on page 19 “How to Properly Refuse Risk.”
The IMT then did the classic move and reassigned them to ‘Division Siberia’ for these two Crews for turning it down. They were reassigned to do structure protection around some structures somewhere away from the fire. These two HS Crews were eventually assigned meaningful assignments.
These two HS Supts. stated that the steep and hazardous “shit sandwich” fireline that DIVS Marsh and GMHS continued to fire and attempt to hold, escaped and the entire Division blew out.
The two AZ and CA HS Supts. recognized the “SHIT SANDWICH” situation for what it was and refused the assignment based on the WFF Rules. DIVS Marsh and the GMHS continued to pursue a tactic that was putting themselves and their firefighters at significant risk with actions that were bound to fail. And it did fail.
Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes.
Pat Moore. Would have really enjoyed hearing that conversation. So Marsh had been ‘field promoted’ to DIVS before and as much as 2 years before Yarnell Hill? I learn something new every day.
Woodsman
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> So Marsh had been ‘field promoted’ to DIVS before and as much as 2
>> years before Yarnell Hill? I learn something new every day.
Eric Marsh actually ‘became’ a certified DIVS ( non-trainee ) on August 26, 2009.
But speaking of ‘learning something new ever day’… hang on to your hat for some of the ‘irony’ being detailed down below.
The man who would be the final ‘sign off’ on Eric Marsh’s DIVS taskbook would then be the same man who would record his final words with his Helmet Camera on June 30, 2013.
Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd.
The ADOSH investigators requested and received ALL ‘training records’ for Granite Mountain ( Marsh included ) and they have always been sitting in the online Dropbox.
Here is the folder containing all of Eric Marsh’s “training records” as obtained by ADOSH…
ADOSH Yarnell Hill Investigation / City of Prescott Fire — GMHS / Training Records / Eric Marsh
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AADboA15Lgl7OG0MCCh5ECJfa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS/Training%20Records/Eric%20Marsh?dl=0
There are 6 PDF document files in that ‘Eric Marsh Training Records’ folder…
“E Marsh DIVS.pdf” – Marsh’s DIVS taskbook
“E Marsh STEN STCR.pdf” – Marsh’s STEN/STCR taskbook
“E Marsh TFLD.pdf” – Marsh’s TFLD taskbook
“Eric Marsh Master Record.pdf” – All ratings
“Eric Marsh Training-Experience Records.pdf”
“MARSH Eric Red Card.pdf”
Marsh’s DIVS ‘taskbook’ was initiated on March 7, 2006, by his boss at that time, Prescott’s first Wildland Division Chief Duane Steinbrink.
It took Marsh 3 years, 5 months and 19 days to ‘complete’ his DIVS taskbook.
Marsh’s DIVS taskbook was ‘completed’ and ‘certified’ ( again, by Duane Steinbrink ) on August 26, 2009.
There are only FIVE ‘Evaluation Records’ included in Marsh’s DIVS taskbook.
Eric’s FIRST ‘evaluation’ came just 3 days after Duane Steinbring created his DIVS taskbook and it was on the Coronado National Forest ( but not on the fire RTS mentions above )…
His five ( and only five ) evaluators over that 3 year, 5 month period were…
03/10/2006 – Mark M. South – SEZ – CORONADO NATIONAL FOREST.
11/06/2007 – Bill Kuche – AZ/PNF ( Prescott National Forest ) / Supt.
08/05/2008 – Andy Morrin – Rich Fire P5ED7R – Plumas NF – R5/NZ.
03/20/2009 – Dean Steward – AZ Wildfire Academy – DIVS, Central Yavapai Fire.
08/13/2009 – Aaron Hulburd – DIVS – Prescott National Forest
And YES.. the 03/20/2009 ‘evaluation’ was simply when Eric Marsh was playing ‘DIVS’ at his own 2009 AWIMA Arizona Wildfire Academy. Dean Steward was there as well and ‘signed’ Marsh’s ‘DIVS’ taskbook for runing 2 S211 classes and 1 S234 class.
Dean Steward is Todd Abel’s close friend ( and former engine-mate with CYFD ) and he is the one who ended up the actual DOZB/HEQB the night of June 30, 2013 and supervised that ‘dozer push’ out from the Boulder Springs Ranch to where the 19 dead bodies were out in the box canyon.
On the ‘Final Evaluator’s Verification’ document… the ‘Final Evaluator’ who ‘signed off’ on Marsh’s taskbook on August 13, 2009… was Prescott National Forest (PNF) employee Aaron Hulburd.
Yep. The same PNF “Fuels Technician” ‘Aaron Hulburd’ who would be an ‘off the radar’ hire on the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, and the one to actually record Eric’s last words with his Helmet Camera.
And as if that wasn’t enough ‘irony’…
The person who ended up the ‘final evaluator’ for Jesse Steed’s actual STCR taskbook would be the man who was standing NEXT to Aaron Hulburd in Yarnell as Hulburd was recording their final words.
Prescott National Forest employee ( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).
See ‘Jesse Steeds’ taskbooks in the same ADOSH folder.
It was a pretty ‘incestuous’ back-and-forth going on there in Prescott.
A lot of ‘Granite Mountain’ ratings were being ‘earned’ right there in their own backyard and being ‘signed off’ on by the actual “Three Prescotteers”.
Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
The same three men who, along with Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown, would be the first firefighters to arrive where their bodies were on June 30, 2013.
And NONE of these men were interviewed by ANYONE who was charged with investigating Granite Mountain and the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So now… not only do we have full evidence that the “Three Prescotteers” ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky Yowell ) did all of the following…
1. Responded to Roy Hall’s ‘off the radar’ calls for more ‘help’ on Sunday morning and arrived in Yarnell with their separate trucks and 2 ATVs.
2. Jumped into the Yarnell Hill ‘fire’ in leadership roles and started ‘freelancing’ as soon as they got there ( because Bea Day’s Type 2 Team that they belonged to had already been ‘junked’ and the Incident was moving to Clay Templin’s Type 1 team ).
3. Were present on the Shrine Road and were helping to ‘direct’ all the Youth Camp evacuations.
4. One of more of them ( Clawson, Hulburd and/or Yowell ) might STILL be one or two of the ‘mysterious’ as-yet-unidentified VOICES heard talking to Granite Mountain…. and perhaps even the ones Marsh was ‘reporting’ to in the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video )
5. Aaron Hulburd becomes the one to film 21 separate videos that captured what was happening prior to, during and after the deployment… but has never been officially identified as doing any such thing.
6. All THREE of them were members of the ‘ground rescue team’ that said “fuck it… let’s go for it”… and charged through probably still-live low-hanging power lines and past venting propane tanks just to try and find GM.
7. Were members of the first set of FFs to actually walk up to the deployment site where DPS Medic Eric Tarr had just found the bodies.
8. Jason Clawson was the one to actually make the “19 confirmed dead” radio call to OPS1 Todd Abel.
9. And just like key player SPGS1 Gary Cordes… Jason Clawson has absolutely NO RESOURCE ORDER in the ‘official’ documentation for the Yarnell Hill fire. Hulburd and Clawson ended up with ‘backfill’ orders only created a week later that says their assignment at Yarnell was “assisting with body recovery’… but Jason Clawson and Gary Cordes ended up with no ‘resource order’ whatsoever. Like they were never even there. Ironic that the only member of fire command to ever admit that he KNEW exactly where Granite Mountain was headed ( Gary Cordes )… and the very FF who would make the radio call confirming the 19 deaths ( Jason Clawson )… were… as far as Arizona Forestry’s official fire personnel list is concerned… NEVER even THERE at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
In addition to ALL of that…
We can now see in the ‘GM training records’ obtained by ADOSH that these same “Three Prescotteers” were actually the ones who were the ‘final evaluators’ for Eric Marsh’s actual DIVS taskbook and Jesse Steed’s actual STCR taskbook.
And no one ever bothered to interview these “Three Prescotteers”.
Not even Mike Dudley or Jim Karels… who were NOT under the same ‘Touhy’ restrictions as ADOSH and they DID have ‘full’ interview access to other USFS personnel like the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
The only agency that got the REDACTED versions of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs was ADOSH. Mike Dudley and Jim Karels saw ‘the real thing’ and were even able to have their OWN interviews with them.
They could have done the same with Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… but ( as far as we know? ) they never even bothered.
The Connection to Prescott NF is not surprising.
May or may not fit but some times teams are sent to Fires with a DIVS and a Trainee. That would more than likely be Marsh attached to Prescott Qualified DIVS people. ( not much from the City to draw from)
Most of the assignments you mention could well have been Trainee positions for March before he was signed off as a DIVS in 2009.
It dose not show trainee from what you posted but stands out if there were no Trainee assignments prior.
Then for 4 years he never served? That’s quite a spread to maintain a Qualification of that level.
Most large fires would have been Federal. and a agreement to attach to a Forest DIVS I will have to look, but were all the Fires at DIVS or under in a TFLD or a STLD positions?
OK some Big Questions—-
1. All DIVS assignments TWO were both Trainee.
2. RED CARD says Qualified DIVS how ever The ICT4
Qualification would indicate he was not a fully qualified DIVS.
3. ICT4 Qualifications are TFLD Qualified.
5. He was a ICT3 Trainee which means he had little or no DIVS experience —or had never served on a Number of Fires as a DIVS
I do not know what the current requirement is it use to be FIVE fires as a DIVS.
All the records after 2009 do not show any DIVS positions.
2008 and 2009 show Trainee only. 2009 was a Project burn associated with the Arizona Academy. Which dose not meet National requirements.
Best I can Do for you WTKTT Actually on Yarnell though assigned as a DIVS the Position Marsh was in was no more than a TFLD Crew and he had ONE CREW and no other recourses not a true DIVS Position.
He also failed to Manage that DIVS in several ways as we have discussed often.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 19, 2016 at 10:01 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> OK some Big Questions—-
Thank you for putting some more ‘eyes’ on those documents, and Eric Marsh’s actual ‘qualification’ documents.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Best I can Do for you WTKTT
>>
>> Actually on Yarnell though assigned as a DIVS
>> the Position Marsh was in was no more than
>> a TFLD Crew and he had ONE CREW and no
>> other recourses not a true DIVS Position.
Correct.
And ( as we have discussed already )… Eric Marsh’s actual resource order was NEVER updated or amended in any way to ever indicate he had been ‘promoted to DIVS’ on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Eric Marsh’s official resource order ( Number C-15.18 ) mysteriously still only says he was ‘ordered up’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire as just an STCR.
From the official and (supposedly) all-inclusive “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document for the Yarnell Hill Fire…
Resource order: C-15.18
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2054 PNT
Resource Requested: STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW
Resource Assigned: MARSH, ERIC (AZ-ADC)
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> He also failed to Manage that DIVS in several
>> ways as we have discussed often.
Correct… which has always left the following ‘question’ on the table…
Since Marsh’s performance as a DIVS on the Yarnell Hill Fire was all adding up to a complete ‘failure’ circa 3:30 PM ( Assignments NOT accomplished ), was he simply trying to ‘salvage the day’ and do something ‘heroic’ so that his ‘evaluation’ as a DIVS on that fire wouldn’t be “Total failure to achieve any objectives for his Division”?
It’s still just one of the *possible* pieces of the puzzle.
Also.. I wanted to be clear about some things…
I was NOT suggesting that PNF employees Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were not actually QUALIFIED to be the ‘Final Evaluators’ for Marsh’s DIVS taskbook ( Hulburd ) and Jesse Steed’s STCR taskbook ( Yowell ).
Both Hulburd and Yowell were, apparently, qualifed DIVS.
Their ‘backfill’ Resource Orders say they were both ordered as ‘DIVS’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire so one must assume they both really did have valid red-card quals for that.
It just remains beyond irony that the two men who would end up standing in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot and ‘recording’ the last radio transmissions of both Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh were the same two men who had actually been the ‘Final Evaluators’ for both of their DIVS and STCR taskbooks… and that NEITHER of these men would ever be interviewed by anyone.
I was also mistaken above when I said their eventual ‘back-fill’ orders for Yarnell said they were “assisting in body recovery”. That is NOT the case. Their ‘backfill’ orders actually only said their only ‘assignments’ were to “help secure the accident scene”.
Once again… from the official and (supposedly) all-inclusive “J- Resource Orders.pdf”
document for the Yarnell Hill Fire…
Resource Order: 0-160
Ordered Date/Time: 07/03/13 1031 PNT
Resource Requested: DIVISION GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS)
Resource Assigned: Yowell, Kc (AZ-PDC)
Special Needs: This is a backfill. KC helped secure the accident scene.
Resource Order: 0-161
Ordered Date/Time: 07/03/13 1033 PNT
Resource Requested: DIVISION GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS)
Resource Assigned: Aaron Hulburd (AZ-PDC)
Special Needs: This is a backfill. Aaron helped secure the accident scene.
NOTE: The THIRD “Prescoteer”, Jason Clawson, has NO RESOURCE ORDER in this same document… just like there is NO resource order for Gary Cordes.
According to Arizona Forestry’s own official documentation for the Yarnell Hill Fire… BOTH of these critical ‘players’ on Sunday, June 30, 2013 were never even there.
RTS-Crucial information–Shows that Marsh had a pattern of risk taking when two other HS Supers refused to do that job. He undoubtedly risked his men’s lives there just as he did in Yarnell. Talking to Marsh you would have never thought he would take unnecessary risks of the lives he had to account for. Why would he put his men at risk when two other Supers would not on that fire you mentioned. Marsh’s propensity to risk his men’s lives ran out on the Yarnell Hill scene.
But someone had to order Marsh down to protect structures or at least know Marsh was the man of the moment when risks were involved. If Cordes was in charge of Marsh then he had to be involved somehow in this. Where I am stymied is at Steed’s decision to go along with Marsh and lead those men down. Somehow Steed stands to take more blame than Marsh since it was obvious that Marsh had no brain about dangerous situations and had this trait of being the dare devil with his men’s lives. It seems Steed had the better sense of the two there–yet why would a man of his “Greek God” status give in to a less capable leader?
It goes to human factors on this one for sure. As far as Marsh’s advancement–his neighbor had much to do with that–one that kept signing off and promoting Marsh. It was nice to promote Marsh since he was the neighbor, but the obvious lack of qualifications Marsh had led to the deaths of those men, something we who have been on this for the past several years have to conclude. I now truly believe had Steed been in charge the men would be alive today. Since I was at the very spot they went down I can say that every bit of common sense was disregarded, especially since they went down sometime later than when we could have also made a run for the Helms. I even had a bit of guilt that I could not have stopped them considering the risk I knew was there. But as Willis believed ordinary people can’t get through that type brush and terrain but wild land fighters can. Yet they did not.
Thank you RTS for your input. You are willing to put the truth out as it is. Too many are afraid to do that.
One Point. Marsh was the DIVS Only OPS had the Authority to Move his resources to a new assignment.
According to every thing we have so far both OPS thought the Crew was in the BLACK. As did the IC.
Marsh as DIVS could not change his assignment with out OPS involvement and Approval That seems not to have happened.
There is no mention that their assignment DIVS-A had been changed by IC or OPS.
I see no other orders or plans to move the crew except by Marsh.
He failed the simplest directive of all. Your Assignment Is——-
Maintain Communications with your supervisor. Discuss all anticipated changes with your supervisor. Never abandon your assignment with out full authority of your supervisor.
Bob,
Maybe splitting hairs a bit here on your post: “Marsh was the DIVS Only OPS had the Authority to Move his resources to a new assignment.”
Marsh as a DIVS clearly had the authority to move his resources (GMHS) as long as he clarified and cleared that move with OPS. He did NOT do that prior to his actions.
You eventually explain that. It was your matter-of-fact assertion that a DIVS does NOT have that authority that I responded to.
You are right that is what I was trying to say didn’t make it clear.
Bob, do you believe Marsh absolutely acted on his own. It stands to reason that he had a purpose in deciding to go down and Willis gave us the hint when he said that is what they (GMHS) do–they protect structures. So don’t you imagine that some one had to at minimum encourage them and remind them that is what they need to do protect those structures. No lookout, no idea how hard that brush is to encounter, and no idea it is wrong going downhill toward a wildfire and even more not counting the idea his men[s lives were stake.
Sonny—I have said all along HE ACTED ON HIS OWN.
He had 2 choices move to get to a pick up location.
or Move to set up to at a new attack point. I do not see one of those where
they headed it was a long ways to Glen Isla from the BSR and the fire would be there before they ever got to the ranch it was almost there when they left the Black.
Thus lets move to get to the trucks and call it a day.
I am still there even if some do not agree.
Charlie,
Thanks. All of the GMHS, even Marsh, had an obligation to refuse the assignment based on on viable safety concerns. Among other things, Groupthink and The Abilene Paradox were also fatal influences that day.
And I agree that Steed had much more influence on the fatal outcome because the GMHS safety and welfare was his responsibility as Acting Superintendent.
WTKTT,
On March 17th, you posted: ‘The very idea that an accredited ‘Wildland Training Academy’ would try, in any way, to establish ANY past fire fatality as ‘off limits for discussion’ is absurd.”
Yes, it is absurd, however, it did occur on Wednesday, March 10th, when Amanda Marsh called one of the AZ Fire Academy Course instructors to complain about someone talking about the GMHS and the YH Fire on Tuesday in one of the classrooms.
It all began on Tuesday, March 9th, when former GMHS (2011-2013) and ‘volunteer’ for the Eric Marsh Foundation for WFF’s, Eric Naumetz talked with Amanda Marsh about someone discussing the GMHS actions on the 2012 ‘Nevada Fire (Holloway Fire) and the YH Fire and the GMHS in the classroom. (To your chagrin, the Course title and Instructors will remain anonymous).
Early the following morning, Amanda Marsh called one of those Course Instructors, ranting and raving about the audacity of allowing someone to talk about the YH Fire and the GMHS, and specifically Eric Marsh.
The Course Instructor said he explained to her that there was a vast gulf of different perspectives and perceptions on those issues based on the myriad of WFF experience levels and much, much more in response to her protests and accusations.
The upshot was, she still feels Eric Marsh was/is a hero, a victim of the big-bad-fire, and it was nobody’s fault. And in a way, I get that. Then again, living in denial is not healthy nor conducive to healing.
Amanda Marsh also went to the AZ Wildfire Academy Director Tony Sciacca with the same complaints. He decided that this mischief-maker would have to leave the Academy because of what he said about the YH Fire and the GMHS. This was done WITHOUT getting ‘the other side of the story’ from the miscreant.
This YH Fire and GMHS offender was notified on Wednesday evening and left the Academy on Thursday.
And I am siding with Bob Powers on the entire ‘dale1’ debacle about his incoherent claims of an instructor getting removed from the academy or whatever he said.
Astounding.
An accredited Wildland Firefighting Academy trying to make sure someone doesn’t talk about a particular (historic) Wildland Fire.
This ‘thread’ continues up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329171
Some clarity and confirmation about the GMHS ‘Nevada Fire’ discussed during the ‘Squad Boss interviews’ when used as an example of good leadership by all four candidates. The ‘Nevada Fire’ was actually the 2012 Holloway Fire in Nevada and Oregon (according to those in the know) where the Zuni HS Crewmember (filler) deployed her fire shelter and survived with minor burns in spite of odds against such an outcome.
Initially, it was stated (paraphrasing) that the fire suddenly appeared and they had no Safety Zone and it threatened their Crew Carriers and they fired out around themselves and ‘it all worked out.’
According to former GMHS Eric Naumetz (2011-2013) and an Eric Marsh Foundation for WFF’s ‘volunteer’ at he 2016 AZ Wildfire Academy, what occurred was slightly different based on his recollection of the event.
According to former GMHS Naumetz, the fire had been burning very actively for several days and nights, and so the Crews spiked out on the firelines were advised/warned by the IMT to bed down wearing their Nomex PPE.
According to former GMHS Naumetz, the FIRST that night or early morning fire activity occurrence that threatened them resulted when the main fire advanced on the GMHS location and Foreman Jesse Steed happened to wake up and/or be awake to notice it and realize it was not really a threat and went back to sleep.
According to former GMHS Naumetz, the SECOND time Steed noticed the night or early morning fire activity was more intense and much closer. Steed quickly mustered the GMHS and they had to fire out around themselves and their Crew Carriers. So, ‘it all worked out in the end’ as stated in the ‘Squad Boss interviews.’
So then, this is at least as LITTLE bit better than the original inference drawn from reading the ‘Squad Boss interview’ notes where the fire suddenly appeared without warning – even though it kinda did do just that.
So, it APPEARS that the GMHS did NOT have a designated Lookout awake during the nighttime or early morning hours to watch out for, notice, and alert the Crew about active fire behavior threatening their position and their Crew Carriers.
This kinda follows in the pattern of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 18, 2016 at 2:49 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Some clarity and confirmation about the GMHS ‘Nevada Fire’ discussed
>> during the ‘Squad Boss interviews’ when used as an example of good
>> leadership by all four candidates. The ‘Nevada Fire’ was actually the 2012
>> Holloway Fire in Nevada and Oregon (according to those in the know) where
>> the Zuni HS Crewmember (filler) deployed her fire shelter and survived with
>> minor burns in spite of odds against such an outcome.
Thank you… and you still may be right that this ‘miracle that occurred’ with that Zuni Crewmember might have actually given GM even more of a ‘false impression’ about the capabilities of their fire shelters… and even more of a ‘false impression’ about ‘how big is big enough’ when it comes to a ‘deployment zone’. ( Yes, we all hate that phrase ).
I’ve studied those photographs some more and the only thing I can think of is that because those ‘scrub trees’ were significantly TALLER than the ‘scrub oaks’ in Yarnell ( 12 to 15 feet tall versus 4 to 6 feet tall in Yarnell )… then *MAYBE* ( just maybe ) the fire stayed mostly ‘up in the tree crowns’ while it blew there that area. It obviously never went ‘horizonatal’ at ground level, like it did in Yarnell, or that Zuni FF would be dead.
But regardless… yes… something like that could have easily given anyone who was there and got a chance to ‘visit’ that site to get ‘false impressions’ about what is ‘survivable’ and what is NOT.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So then, this is at least as LITTLE bit better than the original inference drawn
>> from reading the ‘Squad Boss interview’ notes where the fire suddenly appeared
>> without warning – even though it kinda did do just that.
>>
>> So, it APPEARS that the GMHS did NOT have a designated Lookout awake
>> during the nighttime or early morning hours to watch out for, notice, and alert
>> the Crew about active fire behavior threatening their position and their Crew Carriers.
>>
>> This kinda follows in the pattern of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
I’m not sure the ‘new’ information totally matches everything that was being said by MULTIPLE GM crewmembers during those 2013 ‘job interviews’. They seemed to indicate whatever happened was when they were actually doing some ‘line building’, and then there was ‘running’ involved, and a ‘drainage’ and ‘fire cresting a hill’ and then ‘everything working out OK in the end’.
Is it possible they had TWO ‘close calls’ on the same damn fire?
According to ALL of these ‘interview notes’ taken together about the Nevada incident we have Granite Mountain Hotshots Andrew Ashcraft, Clayton Whitted and Travis Turbyfill all reporting about something that happened in Nevada involving all of the following…
NEVADA INCIDENT
===============================================================
Line work being done.
Dozer-line involved.
Buggies threatened.
Fire suddenly ( and unexpectedly) cresting ridge(s).
Whitted and Ashcraft RUNNING.
Drainage(s) involved.
Safety Zone BURNOUT.
Ashcraft proud he ‘kept a cool head’
Ashcraft really glad it “All worked OK in the end”.
=================================================================
All that being said… it doesn’t change the ‘conclusions’ to draw and as far as that goes… it’s ‘Deja Vu’ all over again…
Example: From back in Chapter X ( 10 ) of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-193870
*** On November 30, 2014 at 5:35 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
WTKTT,
Notwithstanding the BRHS diplomacy,neither they or any IHC should have to be reminded that, especially given the EARLY radical fire behavior witnessed by all that day AND the previous week’s Doce Fire. An experienced IHC just doesn’t forget to post a lookout, ever.
So once again – a CLEAR indication of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes on the part of the GMHS overhead.
*** On November 30, 2014 at 8:33 pm, WTKTT replied…
The ‘Nevada’ incident that was being talked about to the ‘job interview’ committee when Caldwell, MacKenzie, Turbyfill and Ashcraft were ‘interviewing’ in March 2013 to be Philip Maldonado’s replacement as GM ‘Squad boss’ actually indicates the problem that arose might have been because they had no LOOKOUT that day, either.
There was line building involved… then drainages… then a fire ‘cresting a ridge’ in less than 60 seconds… then there was RUNNING involved and then, ultimately, some kind of ‘burn out the safety zone’ with Caldwell just being glad it (quote) “all worked out OK in the end”.
We still need to know more about that Nevada incident… and whether Darrell Willis could lay his hands on some ‘Unit Logs’ or AARs ( After Action Reports ) as easily as he was able to find Eric Marsh’s Unit Log for the Payson ‘demob’ incident and give that to ADOSH.
*** On November 30, 2014 at 10:35 pm, RTS replied…
WTKTT,
Regarding the “Nevada Incident” where “because they had no LOOKOUT that day, either. There was line building involved… then drainages… then a fire ‘cresting a ridge’ in less than 60 seconds… then there was RUNNING involved and then, ultimately, some kind of ‘burn out the safety zone’ with just being glad it (quote) “all worked out OK in the end” that it all worked out in the end”.
The ONLY reasons they had to run once the fire crested the ridge so quickly and unexpectedly was because they had NO LOOKOUT and they failerd to heed F/O # 3 regarding EXPECTED FIRE BEHAVIOR!
Nevada cheat grass and sage brush are among the most EXTREMELY flashy, volatile, and VERY FAST and a very high Energy Release Component (ERC) fuels in the United States. Just check out the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned site and search under the Incident Review Database for NV burnovers, entrapments, and shelter deployments.
Clearly the ‘Nevada Incident was just one more instance in a “long chain of Bad Decision With Prior Good Outcomes” for the GMHS.
Followup…
Just for reference… here is that original ’roundup’ of the NEVADA INCIDENT testimony as it emerged from interviews with MULTIPLE GM Hotshots during their 2013 job interviews to become Philip Maldonado’s replacement as GM ‘Squad Boss’…
NOTE: Applicant Travis Turbyfill had, by far, the best resume’ and qualifications and the HIGHEST SCORE from all the ‘interviewers’ of any other candidate to replace Maldonado as ‘Squad Boss’… but the job was still give to Robert Caldwell instead.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-184647
**
** INDEX of PDF FILE NAMED GMHS1.PDF
This is just a quick ‘followup’ to the post below regarding that GMHS1.PDF document which contains all the ‘interview notes’ from the time ( in March, 2013 ) when Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Clayton Whitted, and Melissa Fousek were interviewing current Granite Mountain Hotshots to find a replacement for departing GM ‘Squad Boss’ Phillip Maldonado.
The document is a little confusing… so here is a quick INDEX of EXACTLY what is contained in that document and what PAGES things are on.
The actual NAME of this PDF document sitting online is GMHS1.PDF
It was referenced in some ‘Prescott News’ publisehd articles and is still sitting at the following unrestricted, public link…
http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/GMHS1.pdf
The document is a 24.90 megabyte PDF file.
It’s the one that contains all the ‘interview notes’ that appear to confirm that some kind of ’emergency situation’ developed while GM was working a fire in Nevada which caused them to have to ‘burnout’ their ‘Safety Zone’.
The incident seems to have had some EERIE similarities to what was going to eventually happen in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
According to ALL of these ‘interview notes’ taken together about the Nevada incident we have Granite Mountain Hotshots Andrew Ashcraft, Clayton Whitted and Travis Turbyfill all reporting about something that happened in Nevada involving all of the following…
NEVADA INCIDENT
===============================================================
Line work being done.
Dozer-line involved.
Buggies threatened.
Fire suddenly ( and unexpectedly) cresting ridge(s).
Whitted and Ashcraft RUNNING.
Drainage(s) involved.
Safety Zone BURNOUT.
Ashcraft proud he ‘kept a cool head’
Ashcraft really glad it “All worked OK in the end”.
=================================================================
The ‘combined’ interview notes do NOT seem to indicate this was just some run-of-the-mill safety area burnout under fully controlled circumstances.
On the contrary.
The ‘combined’ interview notes seem to indicate the Nevada incident was…
Something ‘scary’ ( that required keeping a ‘cool head’ ).
Something ‘unexpected’ ( to have involved people ‘RUNNING’ ).
Something ‘underestimated’ ( to have to burn out a Safety Zone’ ).
Something ‘lucky’ ( to be glad it “Worked out OK in the end’ ).
So here is the quick INDEX of the document just to make it easier to understand what it actually contains and where to FIND things inside of it.
NOTE: The only page of ‘interview notes’ from all FOUR of the ‘Recruitment Committee’ members that seems to be MISSING from this document would be the page of notes taken by Eric Marsh when the interviewee was GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell. ALL other interview note pages are there.
* START OF 53 PAGE PDF DOCUMENT NAMED: GMHS1.PDF
Page 1: Email from Mary Jacobsen to Linda Ripley confirming that the ‘Recruitment Committee’ for finding a replacement for departing GM Squad Boss Philip Maldonado would consist of…
Eric Marsh = Granite Mountain Superintendent
Jesse Steed = Granite Mountain Captain
Clayton Whitted = One of the GM Squad Leaders since May of 2010.
Melissa Fousek = Human Resources Analyst for the City of Prescott
Page 2: Copy of the actual ‘Wildland Squad Boss’ job opportunity announcement that was distributed internally by the Prescott Fire Department.
Page 3: Copy of the CONGRATULATIONS letter sent to Robert Caldwell on April 4, 2013, notifying him of his promotion to GM ‘Squad Boss’, effective four days earlier on March 31, 2013.
Page 4: Copy of email sent from Mary Jacobsen to Dan Fraijo, Eric Marsh, Melissa Fousek and Darrell Willis notifying them that City of Prescott Manager Craig McConnell had just emailed her with approval for in-house posting to fill Philip Maldonado’s ‘Squad Boss’ position.
Page 4: Copy of email from City of Prescott Manager Craig McConnell ( dated 3/18/13 ) giving the OK to fill Philip Maldonado’s position. It is one-line email that says… “Proceed to fill the Wildland Division vacancy created by transfer of Phil Maldonado to Solid Waste.”
Page 5: Copy of the FIVE (numbered) questions that were to be used by the ‘Recruitment Committe’ for each candidate they were going to interview.
Those questions were…
1. Why are you applying for this position.
2. What do you think differentiates you from the other aplicants?
3. Tell us about a time when you had to build your squad’s confidence during your supervisor’s absence.
4. What is your best leadership skill?
5. A Squad menmber has a negative attitude. How do you deal with it.
SIDENOTE: Those are NOT typos up above. Those are word-for-word from official City of Prescott form and they really did spell ‘apllicants’ as ‘aplicants’ and “member” as “menmber”
Page 6: Copy of the RATING SCALE the ‘Recruitment Committee’ was to use for SCORING each of the candidates for the position during their interviews.
9-10 Far Exceeds
7-8 Exceeds
5-6 Proficient
1-4 Needs to Improve
* START OF HANDWRITTEN INTERVIEW NOTES / SCORES
Page 7: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 7: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Christopher MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 8: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 9: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Robert (Bob) Caldwell’s interview.
Pages 10 – 11: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 12: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Christopher MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 12: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Robert (Bob) Caldwell’s interview.
Page 13-16: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 17: Eric Marsh’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 17: Eric Marsh’s notes/scores taken during Christoper MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 18: Eric Marsh’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 19: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 20: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Christopher MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 21-22: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 23: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Robert (Bob) Caldwell’s interview.
* END OF HANDWRITTEN INTERVIEW NOTES / SCORES
SIDENOTE: SCORING RESULTS
—————————————————————————————
On page 9 of the PDF file we seem to see the names
of four applicants for the positions and the ‘scores’ they
were getting after the ‘interviews’.
The four applicants ( represented in this document, anyway ) were…
Andrew Ashcraft
Christopher MacKenzie
Travis Turbyfill
Robert (Bob) Caldwell
Page 9 of the PDF file has handwritten notes that say exactly this…
Ashcraft 198
Chris 150
Turby 251
Bob 219
So it would appear that Travis Turbyfill received the highest SCORE
from the interviews… but the ‘Squad Boss’ job still went to Andrew Ashcraft.
—————————————————————————————-
The next few pages in the PDF document are Xerox copies of each of the candidates’ actual typed up ‘Internal Candidate Supplemental Application’ forms where they all declare they were ‘Applying for the position of: Squad Boss’.
They are all standard forms with the City of Prescott logo at the top.
Page 24: Copy of Andrew Ashcraft’s application dated 3/21/13.
Pages 25 – 26: Copy of Andrew Ashcraft’s typed resume’.
Page 27: Copy of Travis (John) Turbyfill’s application dated 3/20/13.
Pages 28 – 33: Copy of Travis Turbyfill’s work history and his resume’.
NOTE: On page 31, Turbyfill list as a ‘reference’ Mr. Philip Maldonado, the one whose job of ‘GM Squad Boss’ is what they are all applying for because Maldonado had recently taken another job with the Prescott Solid Waste Division.
Page 34: Copy of a letter of recommendation for Travis Turbyfill from Tim Snyder, ENGB / Faller “C” / Paramedic – CVFD
Page 35: Copy of a ‘Certificate of Appreciation’ given to Turbyfill by the USMC.
Pages 36-38: Copy of another resume’ submitted by Travis Turbyfill.
Page 39: Another letter or recommendation for Travis Turbyfill from Philip Maldonado himself, the man whose ‘Squad Boss’ job Turbyfill was applying for.
Page 40: Duplicate copy of same letter or recommendation for Travis Turbyfill from Tim Snyder, ENGB / Faller “C” / Paramedic – CVFD
Page 41: Copy of a self-promotion document submitted by Turbyfill named “Five Values of TRAVIS TURBYFILL”
Page 42: Copy of Robert Caldwell’s application dated 3/21/13.
Pages 43 – 45: Copy of Robert Caldwell’s original GMIHC application dated 1/14/10.
At this point… the document contains other job applications being received at this time for people wanting to also ‘move up’ to ‘Lead Crew Member’ for GM.
Pages 46 – 48: Copy of Joe Thurston’s application for ‘Lead Crew Member’ 3/21/13.
Pages 46 – 53: Copy of Wade Parker’s application for ‘Lead Crew Member’ 3/21/13.
* END OF 53 PAGE PDF DOCUMENT NAMED: GMHS1.PDF
And this is probably neither here nor there… but it should be noted that not only did applicant Travis Turbyfill receive the highest score ( by far ) following all the interviews… Travis Turbyfill also included the most complete resume’ and had MORE ‘letters of recommendation’ included than any other applicant… INCLUDING a specific ‘letter of recommendation’ from GM Squad Boss Philip Maldonado himself recommending Turbyfill as his replacement…
…but the job promotion was, in the end, still actually given to Robert Caldwell.
WTKTT,
Based on what you posted, I think you are correct and there may very well have been more than one ‘Nevada Fire’ incident reinforcing their Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes attitude.
It really does sound like, from what Andrew Ashcraft, Clayton Whitted and Travis Turbyfill all reported ( collectively ) to that ‘interview committee’… that the thing they were so glad ‘worked out OK’ really was a DAYLIGHT incident… where they were just building line and suddenly got caught with their asses hanging out ( because they had NO LOOKOUT ).
Maybe. Maybe not.
Thank you, though, for the ‘continuing’ story and even more evidence that something was just not right with this organization known as ‘Granite Mountain’.
See new post above that proves how ‘incestuous’ even all the ‘position task book’ signing was.
Eric Marsh’s DIVS taskbook was ‘signed off’ on ( final evaluator ) by the same man who would then end up recording Eric’s last words with his Helmet Camera.
Prescott National Forest “Fuels Technician” Aaron Hulburd.
And the man who was standing right next to Hulburd while he was recording Eric’s final words is also the same guy who was the ‘final evaluator’ for Jesse Steed’s acual STCR taskbook.
The other “Prescotteer”… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
WTKTT,
This link posted below is NO longer valid as of March 19th.
“It was referenced in some ‘Prescott News’ publisehd articles and is still sitting at the following unrestricted, public link…
http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/GMHS1.pdf
The document is a 24.90 megabyte PDF file.”
WTKTT,
Yes, the brush on the ‘Nevada Fire’ was taller than the YH Fire brush, however, the intense outflow winds and the blowtorch fire behavior vaporized the YH Fire brush turning their Deployment Zone into a moonscape.
Not enough study has been done of EITHER incident.
WTKTT,
Enough study for me on both incidents. All I needed were the fire weather conditions, the fire behavior, the photos, and talking to WFF’s that were there.
Okay… then YOU tell ME…
Why ( exactly ) did that girl live?
By just looking at the photos… she should have been toast.
WTKTT,
It was likely because she was BELOW the deadly hot gasses.
Dr. Ted Putnam has always stated that numerous fire fatalities could/would have been prevented if only the entrapped WFF’s had laid down on the ground, avoiding the deadly, hot gases.
He found numerous WFF fire fatalities with their PPE severely scorched FROM THE WAIST UP, FUNNELING THE DEALY HOT GASSES INTO THEIR LUNGS.
Look at the photos again and pages 20, 22, and 26. The deployment site was mostly dirt.
The tool handle did NOT burn.
The mountain mahogany brush limbs and most stems did NOT burn.
Only the leaves burned suggesting wind and short fire residence time as it burned through the brush consuming leaves and minor stems.
“Burnable leaves and limbs of the trees were consumed by fire.” (Page 26)
The brush was 15 to 30 feet from her fire shelter, indicating radiant and NOT convective heat. Radiant heat burns and convective heat kills according to Dr. Bret Butler.
“The shelter showed signs of heat and direct flame contact.” (Page 27)
But nothing indicating sustained, intense flame contact and/or heat.
“Gloves – gloves were found outside the fire shelter. Due to exposure to flames and heat the gloves shrunk approximately 40 percent. Some finger tips were charred.”
(Page 28)
The gloves should/would have charred and/or consumed more with intense flame and/or heat exposure.
And I think these are some of the reasons the Zuni girl survived with as few burns as she did.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on March 19, 2016 at 7:03 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was likely because she was BELOW
>> the deadly hot gasses.
>>
>> The mountain mahogany brush limbs
>> and most stems did NOT burn.
>>
>> Only the leaves burned suggesting
>> wind and short fire residence time as
>> it burned through the brush consuming
>> leaves and minor stems.
Thank you for that. I mean it.
I agree.
That is MOST LIKELY why she survived.
HEAT RISES.
HEIGHT MATTERS.
That ‘burnover’ there in that location PRIMARILY stayed up in the ‘crown’ of those trees.
There were ‘falling embers’ and ignition of whatever fule there WAS on the ground there… but there was never the sort of intense ‘horizontal blow-torch’ effect as there certainly was in Yarnell.
Quick story to illustrate the point…
When I was a teenager… we lived near an airport ( Opa-Locka Airport in Miami Florida ).
One day… a plane crashed on approach to the airport out in a cow pasture that was part of Senator Bob Graham’s “Graham Dairy Farm”.
My father and I jumped in the car and were the first ones there. We hopped a barb-wire fence and ran out to the site of the crash.
My father was a an ex-Navy medic who had tended to the wounded on Omaha Beach… and he immediately started ‘triaging’ people that were lying on the ground.
About 50 feet way, where he cockpit had ended up smashing into a tree… I saw a body on the ground outside the aircraft.
The tree that had stopped the plane was already on fire. It was a ‘Florida Oak’… which resembles regular oaks but because of the climate they don’t grow near as large as regular oaks.
So the ‘foliage’ was about 15-20 feet overhead… and completely on fire.
I crawled on my hands and knees over to the body, under the burning tree. It was the pilot and he was still alive. I pulled my belt off, passed it under his shoulders, used it as a ‘handle’ and dragged him out from under the burning tree.
My POINT is…
There was NO HEAT that I remember.
I remember ’embers’ falling down but wasn’t that concerned with them.
I just don’t remember feeling ANY heat at all… and even this pilot had been under the burning tree for some minutes and not even so much as a first degree burn anywhere on his exposed skin.
My father cussed me good for even doing that… but whether or not the guy was going to die of his injuries ( turned out his back was broken ) I was NOT going to stand there and watch him just burn to death as the limbs fell on him. No way.
But I DO remember being AMAZED, myself, at what a ‘fireball’ was right above our heads… and there just wasn’t any HEAT to speak of there at ground level.
So yea… HEIGHT MATTERS because HEAT RISES.
If I had STOOD UP while doing this… instead of crawling on the ground both going in and coming out… might have been a different story.
Maybe even just 2 or 3 feet above our heads the air temp might have been enough to fry our lungs.
But as far as ‘study’ goes… I DO think this Zuni FF incident should more ‘up front’ and is worth even more ‘looks’… just on the off chance that SOME WFFs are looking at those same pictures and thinking they define any kind of ‘viable deployment site’.
This Zuni FF was just “Lucky as Hell”… and WFFs need to UNDERSTAND that.
Followup… no one died in that plane crash. It was a mid-range two-engine Beechcraft with just 8 passengers. A lot of ‘bleeders’ from head injuries and limb lacerations… but no amputations or ‘kill’ injuries. The pilot eventually recovered from his broken back and returned to flying.
WTKTT,
Good story. It certainly made a lasting impression on you. Thanks for sharing.
The other required training I would propose are reading the GMHS autopsy reports to solidify that this is what may happen to you if you fail to know, understand, heed, and follow the WFF Rules
If you have even a high school degree and memorized facts there or you can spout off hundreds of meaningless sports statistics, you can memorize the WFF Rules.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on March 19, 2016 at 11:18 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Good story. It certainly made a lasting
>> impression on you. Thanks for sharing.
I was raised Catholic. It was the day of my ‘First Communion’. If you don’t know what that is… suffice to say you end up all dressed in WHITE pants and a WHITE shirt. We were out in the front yard ‘celebrating’ that even when the plane crashed.
By the end of the day… my shiny WHITE clothes were SOAKED in RED BLOOD.
So yea… I remember it.
The other ‘relevant’ detail is that, in this case, there was absolutely NO WIND. It was a dead-calm Florida summer afternoon.
I remember that because as we were running towards the crash the thick-black smoke from the fires already burning was going absolutely straight-up. No deviation… and I remember thinking they looked just like the pictures of the Hiroshima mushroom cloud… going STRAIGHT up.
I guess the only real relevance is the ‘heat transfer’ reference and how the HEIGHT can make a difference.
If there is no WIND pushing all that heat DOWN towards the ground… and it is staying in the ‘crown’ of the trees… then maybe ( just maybe ) there is a ‘survivable’ space right there near the ground. Depends on the HEIGHT of the fireball above you, and the duration.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The other required training I would
>> propose are reading the GMHS autopsy
>> reports to solidify that this is what may
>> happen to you if you fail to know,
>> understand, heed, and follow the
>> WFF Rules
As Woodsman has so aptly already said… “I would agree more than 100 percent but that’s the upper limit”.
I have proposed that before myself.
I ( me, personally ) have NO PROBLEM with it becoming a REQUIREMENT for anyone who thinks it’s going to be ‘fun’ to go out ‘camping’ and scraping the ground and getting PAID for it to be REQUIRED to read ALL of those autopsy reports.
Including the ones that I know you have read and probably made you throw up in your mouth a little. I know I did.
I’m someone who was made to watch the movie MECHANIZED DEATH 4 times in Drivers Education class before someone thought it would be OK for me to get behind the wheel of a car.
Reading ‘reports’ about what might ‘actually’ happen if you ‘fuck up’ out fighting a fire… and what your loved ones will have to deal with… would have the same effect… and I have NO PROBLEM with that.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> If you have even a high school
>> degree and memorized facts there
>> or you can spout off hundreds of
>> meaningless sports statistics, you
>> can memorize the WFF Rules.
See above.
You could LAUGH at all the “Hillbilly Rules”… but one good reading session with those autopsy reports and you can bet you will ‘remember’ them the next time someone making slightly more shit money than the shit money you are making says “Hey… let’s leave this safe black and see if we can beat the fire to that Ranch over there!”
WTKTT,
Quick question to tie a loose end for me: Was Phillip Maldonado, who wanted to leave the crew & work the refuse business instead, the crew member who complained that GM/Marsh ‘always had something to prove and was tired of it?’ Or was that someone else?
Thanks
Woodsman
Marsh did prove something–that his risk taking could kill him and his crew.
Woodman,
It was someone else. It was Brandon Bunch who quit in 2013 after the Thompson Ridge Fire (SNF) in NM.
Woodsman… RTS is correct.
It was FF ‘Brandon Bunch’ who is quoted in Kyle Dickman’s book as saying the reason he wanted to ‘transfer out’ of Granite Mountain was because of Eric Marsh’s incessant “Esse Quam Videri” bullshit… and always feeling like he had to PROVE something to someone ( at the crew’s expense ).
However… also according to Dickman… that is NOT why Brandon Bunch actually left GM after the Thompson Ridge fire. It was for personal reasons and in order to ‘hang on’ to a relationship. Not uncommon in the WFF world. Few ‘couples’ can really stand the schedule… especially when there are babies/kids involved.
What we do NOT know is WHY Philip Maldonado actually chose to leave GM. Yes… he moved to a more steady job ( and better pay and benefits? ) with Prescott City Sanitation… but the TIMING is still odd and we still don’t know if there were ‘other reasons’ why Maldonado was ‘bailing out’ of GM.
**
** SO YOU WANT TO BE A HOTSHOT?
**
** Well then… ( according to the information at the Yarnell Memorial )…
**
** “You MUST take orders, and carry those orders out at ALL times, day after day.”
>> On September 29, 2013 at 6:52 pm, Tex (Sonny) Gilligan said…
>>
>> Today I visited the memorial put up near the Ranch Club Restaurant.
>>
>> I took time at the memorial to read what it takes to be a hot shot.
>>
>> They started out with “A Hot Shot must strictly obey orders.”
>>
>> For instance, in this case, although it had to be apparant to some of those
>> men that they were absolutely headed to a very higly dangerous area, they
>> were obliged to do that.
>>
>> Most were of a younger age, so I could see that they might blindly follow orders.
>>
>> I look back when I was a miner at the Ward Mine back in the 70’s I had quit that
>> mine after watching 12×12 timbers mushroom on their tops. The mine foreman
>> took us in past these and said no worry, more would be put in and it was a safe
>> situation. Well 6 other miners agreed, but I instead picked up my check. A week
>> or so later I heard the mine caved at that point. Six men and old Bill were caught
>> in there and barely found a way back out through an air shaft and crawling 600 yards.
>>
>> Just to say, I likely would not make a good Hot Shot.
Just for reference, and the fact that this “Hotshots and ORDERS” topic is being revisted… below is an exact copy of the full TEXT about ‘Hotshots’ that is ( and is still ) being presented to the PUBLIC via that glass-front sandwich board at this ‘Yarnell Memorial’.
On July 7, 2013, Arizona BLM representative Dean Fernandez went up in a helicopter and took dozens of post-fire aerial photos of the Yarnell area, the deployment area, and the ‘anchor point’ area where GM had been working most of the day.
3 days later, on July 10, 2013, Dean Fernandez returned to Yarnell and took even more pictures. On that day, he happened to take photos of the new ‘Yarnell Fire Memorial’ that had already appeared in a vacant lot next to the Ranch House Restaurant.
This ‘memorial’ consisted of a number of glass-front ‘sandwich boards’, with photos of the men who died and some information about them and the organization they worked for.
One of those sandwich boards already contained a ‘printout’ of what appears to have been some kind of job application brochure that the Prescott Fire Department already had prepared to hand out to anyone wanting to apply for a job as a Granite Mountain Hotshot. It contained information about the GM organization, its place in the Prescott Fire Department, and what would be ‘expected’ of anyone applying for a job with the Granite Mountain Hotshot organization.
That’s where we find this offical “What it takes to be a Hotshot” text, as printed by the Prescott Fire Department. The actual title of that section is “So You Want To Be A Hotshot”.
It is at the top of that section where it says this…
“You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
ALL of these Dean Fernandez photos are in the following SAIT Dropbox folder…
SAIT Dropbox / Photos and Videos / Fernandez photos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAB_59PXlAuhlkl2-quFH5_Oa/Photos%20and%
20Video/Fernandez%20photos?dl=0
The photograph of the glass-front sandwich board with the ‘text’ on it is this one…
Dean Fernandez photo 20130710_125336.jpg
That ‘Memorial’ by the Ranch House Restaurant, including the one with this ‘So You Want To Be A Hotshot’ blurb and the “You must take orders” text… was eventually moved farther north on Highway 89, to an empty lot where Shrine Road meets Highway 89. This is now supposed to be the PERMANENT home for the town of Yarnell’s OWN ‘Memorial to the men who died’.
There has already been a DEDICATION CEREMONY for this ‘memorial’ at that location.
So the TEXT being presented on that original sandwich board is, now and in the future, what the PUBLIC is being asked to believe about ‘Hotshots’.
Here is the complete content of what is printed on that glass-front sandwich board at the Yarnell Memorial Site, just as it is shown in Dean Fernandez’s photo. It also included a printed copy of Arizona Forestry’s “72-Hour Report” about the fire…
——————————————————————————————————
( Granite Mountain Logo at the top of the display )
The Prescott Fire Department is proud to host the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew. From our beginning as a fuels mitigation crew in 2002, through the formation of Crew 7 ( Type 2 I/A ) in 2004, and our transition into the elite Hotshot community in 2008, our goal has been to provide our customers with “Excellence in Service” through our superior physical conditioning, our commitment to training, innovative problem solving, and our history of safe and aggressive fire suppression.
* About the Crew
Granite Mountain IHC consists of dedicated people of varying age and diverse backgrounds. Our common bond is our love of hard work and arduous adventure. We believe in rigorous physical and mental training, which allows us to perform at the optimum level in any location and under any circumstances. We are routinely exposed to extreme environmental conditions, long work hours, long travel hours and the most demanding of fireline tasks. Comforts such as beds, showers and hot meals are not always common. Problem solving, teamwork, ability to make decisions in a stressful environment and being nice are the attributes of our crewmembers. We are grateful for our opportunities to excel and proud to represent the citizens of the City of Prescott and the Prescott Fire Department.
Granite Mountain Hotshots provides defensible space on private parcels, as well as City owned open space. We also use prescribed fire to treat fuels on both City property and National Forest land.
* Training
Granite Mountain IHC is very proud of our tradition of providing both excellent classroom and field training to our crewmembers. In addition to our annual 80 hour critical training and refresher, we offer many NWCG courses throughout the season. We almost always have at least one person working on a position taskbook on every assignment. As members of the Prescott Fire Department, we also have opportunities for additional training such as EMS and Technical Rescue. Granite Mountain provides a training cadre that is active both in house and at the Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy.
* Physical Fitness Program
The nature of our work requires us to endure physical hardships beyond most people’s experiences. Environmental extremes, long hours, bad food, and steep, rugged terrain demand that we train early and often by running and hiking, doing core exercises, yoga, and weight training. We must pass the Arduous Work Capacity Test ( Pack Test ) as a condition of hire. Also, we have a fitness goal of a 2.5 mile run in 10 minutes 35 seconds, 40 sit-ups in 60 seconds, 25 pushups in 60 seconds, and 7 pull ups.
* So You Want To Be A Hotshot
Perhaps you should really know what a hotshot crew does. This statement is prepared for your study and serious consideration to purposely discourage those who might be misinformed or those better equipped both mentally and physically to apply for less demanding, but equally important work with the Forest Service. We do have many jobs that pay the same and are equally challenging, equally rewarding.
The very tern “hotshots” means many things to many people. To those of us who recruit, train and work with hotshots, the job is anything but glamorous. From experience we know that fighting fire is about 90 percent physical for the Hotshot crew. The nature of the work is demanding. Only those of high strength, agility, coordination and stamina can cope with the sustained work required of the average hotshot.
As a Hotshot, you will be required to not only produce physically, but to live together, eat together, and sleep together in close, crowded conditions. Complete compatibility is in itself a difficult challenge.
You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.
The emotional strain is extreme, and the competitive pressure of your peer group is always present.
For a crew is only as good as its weakest member.
When not on fire duty, you will be required to engage in daily structured physical fitness training that consists of a minimum 2 – 3 mile run, coordinated exercises, push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, rope climbs squat thrusts, abdominal stretching and the obstacle course.
The rest of your day will be like every other day. Hard labor using hand tools ( axe, shovel, saw ) and usually piling brush, digging holes, picking up garbage, cleaning toilets, sharpening tools, and similar tasks. You will be expected to be ready at all times to answer fire calls on the District, Forest, or out of Region. This requires you to be on 24 hour alert.
On the fire line the hothshot crews are singled out for the hazardous, difficult assignments. It is normal for Hotshots to be on shift 32 hours before relief is available. Succeeding shifts of 14-18 hours are normal. You will normally be “spiked” out away from the main fire camp, thirsty, hungry and sleeping on rocky ground, too often without proper sleeping bags. You’ll be filthy, exhausted, underfed and hurting. There will be no privacy, no sanitation, no shelter, no laundry and no doctors, however first aid is available.
The Hotshot crew is so named because of the need for tough, knowledgeable, hard individuals who can be sent ahead of the main contingent of ordinary labor crews and independently drive holding lines around critical segments of the fire, hold their lines and survive. You will be required to pack heavy loads up and down extremely mountainous terrain ( hose packs of 70 pounds ), fell large trees with either power saws or cross-cut saws, buck trees into shorter lengths, haul blocks of logs, remove dead/down and brush out of the fires path, dig ( 18 inches to 1 feet ) fireline to mineral soil, construct trenches, haul hose, pack heavy portable pumps and tanks, and burn-out your line before the fire gets there, and then start extinguishing spot fires over your line. That’s not the end of it. The dirty work of mop-up begins. Digging and scraping all hot spots out and extinguishing the heat source. Other features of the job are living in and breathing smoke for days, contending with poison oak, poison ivy, poison sumac, cactus, thorns, ticks, gnats, flies, snakes, scorpions, spiders, rolling rocks and falling trees and debris. It’s dirty, hot, dusty and freezing cold.
Obviously we’re looking for superior individuals to fill out hotshot crews.
If you can live and excel with the job I’ve described then we want you.
We care not about your sex, color, race or religion.
But if for any reason you cannot live up to these standards, then I encourage you to do yourself and the rest of the crew a favor and apply for other work.
Author: Unknown.
( The rest of the text contains an exact copy of the Arizona Forestry 72-Hour report from SAIT Leader Jim Karels regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire ).
————————————————————————————————-
So that’s it for what is actually ON that ‘sandwich board’ at this Yarnell Memorial… bad grammar included.
They might has well have added a ‘postscript’ to that “So You Want To Be A Hotshot” sections that said…
“…and if, after reading all of the above, you are STILL crazy enough and/or desperate enough for employment that you want to do this work for less money per hour than you could make working at a McDonalds in San Francisco… then STEP RIGHT UP! You are EXACTLY the kind of ‘crazy’ that we are looking for here at the Prescott Fire Department”.
Whoops… broken link in the message above.
ALL of the Dean Fernandez photos, including the one of that ‘sandwich board’ at the Yarnell Memorial… are in the following SAIT Dropbox folder…
SAIT Dropbox / Photos and Videos / Fernandez photos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAB_59PXlAuhlkl2-quFH5_Oa/Photos%20and%20Video/Fernandez%20photos?dl=0
My guess is Marsh was the original author of that bullshit job description.
Woodsman
I’m not sure where that came from… but it appears to be some kind of ‘famous’ blurb that came out of the U.S. Forestry Service itself.
The ‘giveaway’ is in the first paragraph…
——————————————————————–
Perhaps you should really know what a hotshot crew does. This statement is prepared for your study and serious consideration to purposely discourage those who might be misinformed or those better equipped both mentally and physically to apply for less demanding, but equally important work with the Forest Service. We do have many jobs that pay the same and are equally challenging, equally rewarding.
——————————————————————–
Key phrase: “WE do have many jobs ( in the Forest Service ) that pay the same…”
My guess is that kind of phrasing would not have been coming from anyone in a Municipal Fire Department…. because THEY actually do NOT have ‘many equivalent-pay jobs in the Forest Service’ to offer someone.
SIDENOTE: Even though this blurb is actually trying to DISCOURAGE a whole range of applicants from even applying… and it does mention ‘the pay’… they never actually tell you what shit money you will actually be making for the work they are about to describe.
They could have easily added….
If you need good money… be a plumber.
Of course… the ‘blurb’ also doesn’t mention how easy it appears to be to ‘pad’ your timesheets, either, especially on the day of a demob when no one seems to ever check that even though your timesheets said it would take you until 10:30 PM to arrive back at base and do the ‘stand down’ work… everyone was home for dinner or out drinking at bars on Whiskey Row by 7:00 PM.
WTKTT,
I agree. Some of it is a little over the top. Maybe it was ‘enhanced’ by GM leadership? Bob, RTS, or Gary would know how much of it is standard USFS. I have read similar ‘job descriptions’ from different IHC ‘proper’ and it has similar characteristics….former federal HS’s would know. The ‘must obey orders at all times no matter what’ seems a little ‘off’ to me. That may play back to the assertion about the perception of that’s what the military does, so we should too’ that we were discussing.
Woodsman
Followup…
All I was trying to do by posting that ‘blurb’ which is ACTUALLY on an ‘official’ MEMORIAL placard was…
1. Show exactly what it says about “taking orders… ALL the time… ALL day”.
2. Show the ‘branding’ that was part of the ‘official’ job application process coming out of the Prescott Fire Department.
Regardless of whether Eric Marsh himself was the ‘author’ of that ‘blurb’… you KNOW that he had to have APPROVED it as the ‘message’ he wanted applicants to receive.
Marsh himself was HEAVY into the ‘branding’ of this ‘product’ he created and he was selling.
This is the same guy who had the Granite Mountain Logo laminated onto the face of his own BK radio ( it only partially melted away when he burned to death )… and who spent hours in a metal shop fashioning tail-lights for the GM Supt Truck that look like the GM logo… and he is also the guy who ( in his supposedly famous “my way or the highway” style ) was reported to have gotten into knock-down drag-out fights with people about even the simplest of things like what the fucking T-Shirts were going to look like.
WTKTT,
you said:
“1. Show exactly what it says about “taking orders… ALL the time… ALL day”.
2. Show the ‘branding’ that was part of the ‘official’ job application process coming out of the Prescott Fire Department.”
Which prompted me to check into some things. I looked at every IHC in the Southwest and reviewed all of their websites, if they had one. These included: Carson, Fort Apache, Geronimo, Mt Taylor, Navajo, Prescott (a USFS crew!), Santa Fe, Zuni, and Smokey Bear. I reviewed each of their websites and read the following if available: vision statements, mission statements, job descriptions, and SOP’s. What I was looking for in particular was any reference to a phrase similar to “must obey orders at all times.”
This sampling of current IHC’s from the Southwest (9 crews), I found only ONE reference to anything similar to the phrase “must obey orders at all times.” The Santa Fe IHC, (which by the way wins the award by astronomical distance of the greatest most detailed well thought-out and relevant content), included at the top: “Insubordination will not be tolerated.”
Wiki say about insubordination: ” the act of willfully disobeying one’s superior. Refusing to perform an action that is unethical or illegal is not insubordination; neither is refusing to perform an action that is not within the scope of authority of the person issuing the order.”
My question: How about NOT obeying an order that has a high probability of getting you injured or killed? Would that be OK or not? I’m with Tex/Sonny/Charlie on this one – count me out if that is an organizational requirement and by the way, fuck you!
Wiki is not the end all be all of definitions but it’s something.
I’d say that almost all of the IHC’s today DO NOT have as their #1 SOP as “must follow orders at all times.” My opinion is it’s quite unique to GM. No other crew that I’ve found stresses the obey order rule. I have reason to believe that it was unique to GM and NOT every IHC across the land.
Also note: apparently GM IHC was hoping to employ Olympic class athletes if their goal was a 2.5 mile run in 10 min 35 seconds. 4 min 14 sec split on a 2.5 mile run? Damn! Hardcore!!
One last note: I know a guy who served on Santa Fe in the past. You all do as well. Hell of an SOP handbook they have!! Kudos!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
The “must obey orders at all times” edict was likely a GMHS thing. That sounds to me like maybe something GMHS Foreman (Marine) Steed came up with.
He subscribed to the “you just do what I f**king tell you do do” model.
And IF it was used on other Crews, it would likely be in their Standard Operating Procedures (SOP’s) and not in their Mission Statements.
Insubordination only applies and can be enforced by only your IMMEDIATE supervisor and NOT on the firelines.
We USFS employees were always told that things like “obey now and grieve later” UNLESS the order(s) were (1) ILLEGAL, (2) UNSAFE, (3) IMMORAL, or (4) UNETHICAL.
So, conversely, if the order(s) were LEGAL, SAFE, MORAL, or ETHICAL, then you were obliged to follow them.
Pretty straightforward.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
March 18, 2016 at 12:25 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Pretty straightforward.
Until you are standing on a ridge with a BETTER view of the fire than your Superintendent who has recently recovered from a biking accident and is now playing ‘DIVS’ for one of the only times in his 46 years of age… and the ‘argument’ becomes over that single word… SAFE.
SAFE is easy to define for one person who is perhaps, already only a few hundred yards away from a ‘Ranch’… but can mean something totally different when you are over TWO FUCKING MILES away.
That was the ESSENCE of the ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed. Was it SAFE?… or NOT?
According to all credible reports… Jesse did NOT think it was… and was SAYING so.
But Marsh’s ( still mysterious ) agenda prevailed.
CORRECTION for my post above.
I type ’46’ instead of ’43’ for Marsh’s age.
Eric Marsh was 43 years old on the day he died… not 46.
RTS,
“The “must obey orders at all times” edict was likely a GMHS thing. ” — Agree.
“That sounds to me like maybe something GMHS Foreman (Marine) Steed came up with.” — Not true.
Your perception of what it is like to be in the military is wrong. Look at the record, it was Steed who tried to tell Marsh he didn’t want to do it. It was Marsh who said basically multiple times: “What do I have to do to put you in this used car TODAY?”
The hypothesis GM having a former Marine as Capt & this military influence helped kill them is wrong. The pressure to keep your boss happy who may play a role in your career advancement coupled with the fact that your boss is a “my way or the highway” control freak who’s going to blow a gasket if he doesn’t get his way….these issues had way, way more to do with Steeds decision to finally move the crew against his own wishes. not because former military personnel are sheep who will do anything you tell them to.
That assumption is wrong and misleading.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I guess we are going to have to ‘agree to disagree’ on the topic of the Marine Corps influence on following orders.
I have interviewed several Marine WFF’s, including two retired Marine colonels and a HS Supt. These Marine colonels, the HS Supt. and the majority of the others stated confidently that Steed was ‘following orders’ like a good Marine when he took the GMHS off the hill when they left their perfectly good SZ.
Some of these Marine WFF’s were quite adamant about it, like: “F**king-A that’s why he took them down there, he’s a Marine following orders.”
Here is an excerpt from the military.com website on the YH Fire and Marine Corps issue.
“On June 30, … the [three GMHS Marines] … had a mission to accomplish [to] … protect the community of Yarnell — and just like their time in the Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal.”
It doesn’t specifically address ‘following orders’ yet it accounts for the fatal result of following orders, ‘just like their time in the [Marine] Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal.’
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/07/24/marine-veterans-among-19-firefighters-killed.html
I agree with you that Steed was opposed to leaving their SZ, however, he never really used DIRECT SPEECH to relay that to DIVS Marsh, even though he was his supervisor.
Instead he used what’s referred to as ‘mitigating speech’ or hinting throughout much of the discussing our options Crew net conversation.
In the McKenzie video clips, he mentions the fire location to Marsh rather than being direct about how he felt about leaving their SZ, i.e “checking on your comfort level.”
According to the April 3, 2015 azcentral.com article posted below, Steed once again used ‘mitigating speech’ or hinting by stating they are ‘in the black’ several times.
Even Steed telling Marsh that ‘we can’t make it’ or ‘we’re not going to make it’ is basically still ‘mitigating speech’ because Steed is hoping that Marsh gets it, that it’s not safe. Marsh doesn’t ‘get it.’
Direct speech would have been something like “I know you cannot see the fire behavior as well as us and with what I see, we are NOT leaving this SZ until the fire pulses.’
And there were two other Marines on the hill that day.
Just like in aviation mishaps when the Chief Pilot is flying the plane, Steed is deferring to Marsh, a higher authority, based on his Marine Corps training and experience.
As in aviation mishaps, there are far fewer fatalities when the Co-Pilot or Second in Charge is flying.
Otherwise it is ‘mitigating speech’ and deference to authority, the Chief Pilot or in the case of the GMHS on the YH Fire, deference to the DIVS and actual GMHS Superintendent.
There was NO real separation in authority because the GMHS was running their operation on Crew Net and NOT on the Tactical Net.
It should have been ‘GMHS, DIVS A’ but instead it was likely ‘Jesse’ (or Steed) ‘Eric’ (or Marsh) on their Crew Net.
It was NOT DIVS Marsh, it was Eric. It was NOT GMHS, it was Jesse. There is a big difference here.
Roxanne Warneke said she believes her husband would only have abandoned a safe ridge and hiked into danger if he was directed to do so. “Orders,” she explained. “HE WAS A MARINE WHO WAS USED TO FOLLOWING ORDERS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) (azcentral June 30, 2015)
I’m standing my ground on the Marine Corps influence to follow orders.
RTS,
Stand your ground all you want. Knock yourself out.
The Marines you interviewed are going to say their brother was a good Marine no matter what. No matter what. You don’t understand what it means to be a Marine. Marine Colonel? Please.
I agree with what you say about mitigating speech. That’s because Marsh was his boss and Steed hoped to move up in the world. He had a lot at stake to keep people above him happy. Wasn’t the first time I’m sure.
Condemning veterans as being a liability because of the influence of their prior military service is flawed and counterproductive. Don’t take the simple assumption here. You are capable of much more. You owe yourself and those you train or have influence over to think more deeply here. Talk to the real military if you want perspective – the lower ranking NCO’s. I know this, friend. I encourage you to look further into to this than you have.
If you choose not to listen to me, that’s ok. We can agree to disagree. I’m comfortable with the fact that we have the same goals – firefighter safety.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted: “Condemning veterans as being a liability because of the influence of their prior military service is flawed and counterproductive.”
I am NOT “condemning veterans as being a liability” because of their military training. I am SUGGESTING that it MAY have had an influence on their decision to move from safety.
I examined and studied and applied their DECISION MAKING based on their Marine Corps training and experiences.
I looked into this quite a bit and talked to some lower ranking NCO’s and several lower level Marines AND two Marine Colonels, over a dozen total. The mix was about 50% yes, it influenced him/them and 50% no, it did NOT influence him/them.
Remember, there were two other Marines.
Roxanne Warneke said she believes her husband would only have abandoned a safe ridge and hiked into danger if he was directed to do so. “Orders,” she explained. “HE WAS A MARINE WHO WAS USED TO FOLLOWING ORDERS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) (azcentral June 30, 2015)
This man’s wife knew he was trained as a Marine to FOLLOW ORDERS.
I do know that Steed’s leadership attitude toward his Squad, as a Squad Boss, was “you do what I f**king tell you to do.”
Even though the GMHS loved working for Steed, I believe that his strict attitude prevailed and influenced the fatal outcome on 30 June 2013.
“Being a Marine is a state of mind.” and “Once a Marine, always a Marine” were in this publication titled “Leading Marines.”
http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCWP%206-11%20Leading%20Marine.pdf
It’s a Human Factors theory worth pursuing.
RTS,
I really am trying to help you. Once again we are running out of space.
You have proffered the hypothesis that Steed’s military service, Marine Corps specifically, was a factor in the death of the crew (our decision to leave the safety of the black.) You said you have interviewed a dozen Marines of various ranks. What about the other 15 crew members? What was their reason for doing what they did? Could it be the Prescott FD culture? Perceived IHC culture. They weren’t former military, why didn’t one of them speak up?
Steed’s widow said her husband follows orders like a good Marine and this you take as supporting evidence? The widow seeks to find a reason why a tragedy happens and gain understanding. She’s not going to say my husband was an idiot.
“I looked into this quite a bit and talked to some lower ranking NCO’s and several lower level Marines AND two Marine Colonels, over a dozen total. The mix was about 50% yes, it influenced him/them and 50% no, it did NOT influence him/them.”
So 50/50 huh? Do you actually believe you can draw a conclusion with this?
“I do know that Steed’s leadership attitude toward his Squad, as a Squad Boss, was “you do what I f**king tell you to do.””
So the requests for action you made to your crew for 29 years were optional? They must have been because if they were not, then you just told your crew “you do what I f**king tell you to do.” If this is not the case then you have lost all credibility.
I have attempted to explain to you why you are wrong on this specific point. It wouldn’t bother me but for the fact that we owe it to future firefighters to know the absolute truth about the matter and not made up speculation because we don’t understand the military and we are part of an organizational structure that tries to resemble the military.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
So sensitive.
You posted: “What about the other 15 crew members?” I know that former Payson HS Scott Norris told guys on that Crew that the GMHS did things a lot different than Payson HS. Don’t know about the others yet, still seeking the truth.
“What was their reason for doing what they did? Could it be the Prescott FD culture?”
Absolutely SOME influence here. Jet listen to PFD Wildland BC Willis in his YHF Fatality Site news conference video.
“Perceived IHC culture.” Possibly.
Marsh told many of us that he/they had to prove themselves. I told him in 2009, that they had already done that when they achieved national recognition as a Type I IHC in the Fall of 2008.
“They weren’t former military, why didn’t one of them speak up?”
I’m sure some of them spoke up. And I already told you Steed’s leadership style. And this: “If this is not the case then you have lost all credibility.” Really? Why the f**k would I post something like that I knew it to be false and incredible?
I did NOT talk about Steed’s widow and that her husband follows orders like a good Marine and I did NOT take this as supporting evidence.
You also posted: “So the requests for action you made to your crew for 29 years were optional?”
My leadership style was the Team Member one and NOT the Groupthink, kiss ass, go along to get along Team Player style. I disdain Team Players.
I did my best to follow the leadership styles of Special Forces units as far back as the Spartans and the Revolutionary War. I encouraged these Hot Shots to be part of the solution and have ownership in the plan, always.
Major Phillip M. Johnson (2001) in his paper titled “Effects of Groupthink on Tactical Decision-Making” for the U.S. Army School of Advanced Military Studies. found that the one sure way to encourage Groupthink was for the leader to tell his unit, “This is the plan I want to follow” and then proceed to lay out his plan.
So, in the converse, the way to AVOID Groupthink is to give your unit Leader’s Intent and let them come up with options, knowing that you have the ultimate say. And sometimes they came up with a better plan.
Thanks for ‘trying to help [me] out.’ You’d better give yourself a rest My Friend. I’ll take this all the way, wherever you want to go.
OK for those of you who have never been a HOT SHOT.
The Job descriptions are true and represent the job. The Pay is around $13.00
per hour for a first time GS-3 Crewman going up from there.
25% Hazard Pay for all hours the Fire is Not Controlled— + $3.25
All hours over 8 at time and a half—$19.50 per hour.
In a good fire season a GS 3 will make in 4 months 10 to 12 Thousand Dollars.
I do not think any one at McDonalds makes that kind of money.
But Putting the Money aside the Benefits for a fulltime employee in a Fire Tech. Job is above most jobs with just a collage education.
Health insurance The Government pays 2/3 you pay a 1/3 during your working carrier and into retirement.
Retirement at age 57—Ruffly 37 years 75% of your base pay.
But the point you all are missing is simply the Leadership of a Hot Shot crew.
Over 100 Crews most have great leaders with a solid background in Fire.
They lead their crews every year and are highly respected. Their crews are supervised at high performance and extremely Safe. The Superintendent and Asst. are the top of the list in training and qualifications.
Back in the day as today these HS Leaders moved from the Crews to District and Forest Fire Management Officers and In Fire teams to OPS and IC.
Including Safety Officers and DIVS.
The vast majority are leaders in the highest regard as a crewman yes you could follow them any where and never have to question their orders.
Marsh and Steed did not pay there dues they would have never made it to where they were in The FS or BLM. Many apply for those supervisor jobs but only the top ones are promoted. With in a short time they show their worth or they are gone. I saw three in my time removed from the Superintendent and Asst. Positions within 6 months of hire and two right in the middle of Summer.
The Strength of the supervisors is well known in the FS. A Asst. highly qualified can run a crew as well as the Superintendent. If a Superintendent is week it shows very fast. The Upper staff will know it fairly soon and change the problem.
I am trying to say here that Hot Shots are a Highly trained crew with Highly qualified Supervisors. They look out for their crews and take care of them.
we have had very few HS Crews burned over killing members in the past 50 years.
The record of hours worked verses injuries and Fatalities is one of the highest and most respected in the Wild Land Fire community.
100 HOT SHOT CREWS every summer through out the west their main job is fire suppression and they spend 2/3 of their time on fires.
I am sorry to say– But the Granit Mountain Hot Shots were not the cream of the crop in the Hot Shot world. I would class them in the middle of some of the type 2 crews.
Because the entire crew died it put a undeserved black mark on the other 100 IRHSC. This was a non Federal crew with out the leadership qualifications and history. The ability to train and move into the leadership positions with a large application pool.
Most current Superintendents today are already Qualified DIVS before they become Superintendents in the BLM and FS. That is a fact.
Bob,
I agree. Worked under 3 IHC superintendents last summer that were each working as DIVS at the time. Every one was highly capable, safe, and generally bad mofos.
Woodsman
Some more INFO———-
Today Superintendents are GS-9.
To reach that level in Fire Management takes at least 14 Years in Fire control. Training Fires and Steps thru GS-4/GS-5/GS-6/GS-7 to be promotable to the GS-9 level generally most go thru the GS-7 ASST position before promotion to a Superintendent. Some come in from other positions as ASST. GS-7 Dist FMO’s or Fuels. Those with past HS positions are more likely to promote up to ASST or Super.
Here’s a letter I received from the E-Mail
Sent to a group I belong to. from a retired Superintendent
Hotshot accomplishments are legend.
What is a higher plain are the Hotshot Standards of excellence,
Integrity, Commitment, Professionalism and leadership which consistently brings the solution to the mission. Within the Hotshot
community there is pride without arrogance, a will to accomplish and be the best without brag and esprit within each crew without bounds.
I wish the agency would adapt and live by those standards.
Marsh had worked for the FS and as a HS. He was instrumental in having a crew disband WAS HE A LEADER?????
Steed worked as a HS but never came up thru the ranks and was under Marsh. WAS HE A LEADER?????
The Squad Bosses never worked any where but GM WERE THEY LEADERS?????
All serious and very concerning questions in my perspective.
Marsh was never a DIVS until 10 years as a SUPT. and only on Yarnell Is that truly leader Material?????
Bob Powers said…
—————————————–
The Job descriptions are true and represent the job. The Pay is around $13.00 per hour for a first time GS-3 Crewman going up from there.
25% Hazard Pay for all hours the Fire is Not Controlled— + $3.25
All hours over 8 at time and a half—$19.50 per hour.
In a good fire season a GS 3 will make in 4 months 10 to 12 Thousand Dollars.
I do not think any one at McDonalds makes that kind of money.
———————————————
In 2014, San Francisco raised their minimum wage to $15.00 per hour. Granted, it is being ‘phased in’… but at this moment it’s already $12.25 per hour. In a year or two, it will definitely be $15.00 per hour… no constant subjection to smoke inhalation required.
So there really is a +3.50 an hour ‘incentive’ to NOT have a fire classified as ‘under control’? WHO actually (officially) makes that determination on any particular ‘segment’ of a fire, which then stops the flow of the extra $3.50 per hour?
Is it the ‘whole fire’… or is it assignment specific?
In other words… can one shot crew just be doing mop-up and NOT be getting the extra $3.50 per hour… while another shot crew working the very same fire ( maybe even right next to the other one ) IS making the extra $3.50 per hour just because their ‘section’ still has some flame to deal with?
In all of the payroll records for Granite Mountain that are in the public record… and the dozens and dozens of fire assignments represented… I’m not seeing these kinds of incremental ‘whether the fire was controlled yet, or not’ distinctions. The only thing showing up in the records is either straight time ( base pay rate ) or overtime.
QUESTION: In some of the GM pay records that are not labelled ‘overtime’… sometimes there are two different ‘codes’ showing for the 8 hours oof’base pay’. Sometimes it shows a code of ‘EA’ and sometimes it shows a code of ‘EA’. There is nothing supplied by Prescott Payroll department to ADOSH along with the records to indicate what those codes mean.
What’s the difference between 8 hours of base pay with an ‘EA’ code versus an identical 8 hours of base pay with a ‘PA’ code?
Typo up above. I typed ‘EA’ twice in that first paragraph above.
The two different ‘base pay’ codes I’m wondering about are ‘EA’ and ‘PA’.
WTKTT
The IC declares the Containment and Control.
They are under cost restraints for each fire.
The entire fire is declared controlled not sections.
You gotta want to be there it has to be your calling
I was a GS-6 as a Asst. in 72 73 my base pay was around $8.00 per hour. It is the type of job in the out doors not in a office always a new challenge. I would do it again with no regrets. Some of the best days of my life in the FS were on the Angeles NF on the Oak Grove Hot Shots.
I can not explain why.
I can tell you for me and many others a HS job in at Supervisor level will increase your chances of promotion up the ladder no matter where you go in the FS or BLM.
Almost all of those I knew went to Dist. or Forest level Fire Management Officers some went as high as GS-14 and GS-15 levels in fire.
On GM I have no idea what EA and PA mean. Prescott City Codes Maybe????
Because they were Contract employees to the Government they may not have been under the Hazard pay coverage. Normally AD employees do not get that federal employee benefit.
While the Smoke inhalation is a concern my self and many of my friends have no real effects from wood base smoke it is no different than a campfire or a fire in a fire place. The most Wildland fire fighters are faced with is Hardening of the arteries from smoke. It is way different than People that fight house, warehouse and other type high chemical fires.
To put pay into perspective—
I started in 1961 at GS-3 $1.75 per hour no overtime for over 8 no hazard pay. in 1971 or right in there we got the overtime passed into law until then we got paid striate time for every hour we worked even a 80 hour week.
Hazard pay came in the following year.
I retired at a GS-9 Step 10 top of the 9 scale at that time I was making in 1994 $17.60 per hour.
In all the years I worked I saw Collage kids at least 5 per HS crew working to have money to go to Collage they did well back then for 3 months a good season put $8,000 to $10,000 in the bank for their school year most never came back after 4 years. Those that made a carrier
were few maybe 2 to 4 that went on in severial different fire agencies not just FS. They made a carrier and I will say to this day I loved my carrier choice for all the heat the smoke the mountains I climbed the jobs I did from IA to Mop-up the times that my family suffered because I was not home are the only regrets I have. There is a high Divorce rate attached to Fire Fighters. In Southern Calif. we started Fire season in March and ended in November.
And we still had fires Dec. thru February. I spent close to 40% of the year away from home on Fires.
No WTKTT it is not all about the money. It is about what you enjoy in life and what you are willing to put up with to do what you want to do and be Happy at your job and feel that you accomplished something in your life that few others will ever feel.
I had a hell of a run and enjoyed as much as any man could ask. I have seen places in the wild that most men have never seen and I have saved some of them from Wild Fire.
Thank You God. A humble Wild Land Fire Fighter.
I would agree that Marsh must have had something to do with writing that “Who wants to be a Hot Shot” script. It might have better read “Who wants to be a GMHS and play Russian Roulette with his life?”. You however will get a hero’s reward if the bullet goes through your brain despite your playing with a loaded revolver and disregarding the value of life. All those below you will have their heads lined up so if the bullet takes one, it takes all.
As Gary says, I’m in a mood, so……..
“You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
Only if you think of your crew as Black Ops, Tacticool, Paramilitary, Operators, high echelon, super firefighters.
“The emotional strain is extreme, and the competitive pressure of your peer group is always present.”
Only if you are trying to prove yourselves would you feel this ‘competitive pressure of your peer group’ as being always present.
“We care not about your sex, color, race or religion.”
Care not? Please. Is this like the founding fathers speaking or something?
Woodsman
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> “The emotional strain is extreme, and the competitive pressure of
>> your peer group is always present.”
>>
>> Only if you are trying to prove yourselves would you feel this
>> ‘competitive pressure of your peer group’ as being always present.
Exactly.
If that’s how you intend to conduct business in a dangerous, life-threatening work environment… then your rails are pre-greased for a disaster and your train is already leaving the tracks.
It’s Juvenile.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> “We care not about your sex, color, race or religion.”
>>
>> Care not? Please. Is this like the founding fathers speaking or something?
Yoda speak?
“Orders take, you must, and all at times day after day carry out.”.
“Pressure competitive present always of group peer is.”
“Extreme strain emotional is.”
“About sex, color, race or religion… yours… care we not.”
( Sorry… couldn’t resist ).
WTKTT:
Thanks for the laugh! Keep up the good work. You are on it like stink on rice!
Woodsman
The “So you want to be a Hot Shot” article goes back many years, author unknown, but likely a Forest Service employee based on the context.
As far as the GMHS fitness standards, of “… a fitness goal of a 2.5 mile run in 10 minutes 35 seconds, 40 sit-ups in 60 seconds, 25 pushups in 60 seconds, and 7 pull ups,” the USFS Crews could only use the Pack Test as a qualifying test and nothing else.
No doubt about it, the GMHS were in pretty good shape physically. Too bad they didn’t spend more time learning, understanding, and following the Basic WFF Rules.
RTS,
Yep. I have read a bunch (including one I think on Gary’s website) and they are all similar. I think GM’s was an ‘enhanced’ version…specops version.
“No doubt about it, the GMHS were in pretty good shape physically. Too bad they didn’t spend more time learning, understanding, and following the Basic WFF Rules.”
You damn skippy!
Only the arduous pack test? Several websites I just visited again today, all from R-3 had fitness test standards beyond just the pack test. They were all the same except of a 1.5 mile run in 10min 35 sec not 2.5 miles. I realize who I’m asking but are you sure there’s no other fitness requirement for IHC’s?
I think the 2.5 miles was a typo and I just had a little fun making fun of it. There’s no way the majority of HS could run that. True? Definitely!!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
And IF they could have run that distance in that time, then they could have and should have easily hauled ass RUNNING, without gear, to the relative safety of the BSR, rather than spending the feckless 2-3 minutes cutting a DEPLOYMENT ZONE!
Sixty percent (60%) of the American population can run a mile in under nine (9) minutes.
The BSR was less than 580 yards (0.33 miles) from the DEPLOYMENT ZONE, so they could have (and should have) RUN that distance in 3.07 minutes (if my math is correct) rather than their dramatic and unsuccessful hero bullshit attempt at thinking they could survive the ensuing fire storm in fire shelters.
The only protective device that MAY have saved their lives that day was an onsite shipping container made of aircraft ‘black box’ material where they shield and protect the voice and data recordings.
RTS,
Agree 100%. I’d agree more but 100% is the maximum. Thanks.
Woodsman
ps: I’m probably going to give the IMT and safety officers this season a stroke when I break out my new t-shirt in camp with a fire shelter with a circle and a line through it on the front and OLD SCHOOL on the back Gonna be sweet. I’m going to tell them if they don’t like it then they can talk to Bob Powers about it.
And if they are ‘uncomfortable’ with it, then you can tell them that they are being ‘insensitive’ and you will want to visit the Human Resources Nazi about the issue, because you were ‘offended’ by the whole ordeal.
RTS,
…and hand them a blank ‘Hurt Feelings Report’ for them to fill out. Thanks for the laugh, man!
Woodsman
Yes, the ‘Hurt Feelings Report.’ A classic, bound to be ‘offensive’ to all those ‘sensitive’ WFF’s.
One of many ‘Hurt Feelings Reports’ on the Internet.
https://www.google.com/search?q=hurt+feelings+report+pdf&biw=911&bih=382&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ9KKmnMvLAhVHwmMKHXCVAvEQsAQIGw&dpr=1.5#imgrc=SCBJfLEnnTgsQM%3A
AMEN
Bob,
I’ll have to check on the patent I have pending for the term “Bob Powers Approved.” It will be included at the bottom corner of the shirt.
Woodsman
ps: Next version will be LCES with the E & the S crossed out with KEEP ONE FOOT IN THE BLACK on the back…also Bob Powers Approved.
Woodsman,
You may be correct on the more current fitness standards if you did the research. I have not done that. Sounds like I need to do my due diligence and check them out. Thanks.
I know some HS crews have their own standards above the 1.5 mile test.
Some are different than others as well The Smoke Jumpers add some of their own. The basics is total Physical Fitness.
I do not in any way believe we were quite that Gung ho back in the 60’s and 70’s hell many of us were smokers. We could hike and we could run we were young and strong. We seldom carried 40 LB packs unless it was hose.
I think I was like 175 Lbs. till 1980 not much fat and I was never a runner
40 yard dash was about it for me. I worked out with one of my foreman lifting weights during the winter and spring to be ready for the crew.
That’s about it.
RTS,
No problemo. You more than earned the right to not be up to speed on the details of the fitness standard due to your 49 years of prior service as an IHC Supe.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on March 18, 2016 at 12:23 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I think the 2.5 miles was a typo and I just had a little fun making fun of it.
>> There’s no way the majority of HS could run that. True? Definitely!!
I went back and checked the photo of the sandwich board… and YES… it looks like the TYPO was MINE ( I was copying by hand from the photo in enhanced mode ).
SAIT Dropbox / Photos and Videos / Fernandez photos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAB_59PXlAuhlkl2-quFH5_Oa/Photos%20and%20Video/Fernandez%20photos?dl=0
Photo Filename: 20130710_125336.jpg
It’s still pretty fuzzy at that spot in the photo… but on second look definitely
looks more like ‘1.5 mile hike’ than ‘2.5 mile hike’.
Sorry. My bad.
WTKTT,
No problem. GM’s fitness standard now matches every other current IHC I have seen as far as recruitment information. Not a whole lot of people can pull off a 4min 14 second mile. I thought they were freaks now it looks like everyone else. There are competitive marathon runners on hotshot crews today but to require every prospective crew member to be one is unrealistic.
Thanks!
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
March 18, 2016 at 5:59 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I thought they were freaks now it looks like everyone else.
Don’t forget “Pukie the Clown”… Jesse Steed’s hero.
Google it.. then click ‘images’.
Pretty damn ‘freaky’.
Actually… here’s one…
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-omfcZZ6oE0E/Ua0vQ9JvAWI/AAAAAAAAATU/sZF-aDLmLvM/s1600/pukie_v5_2013.png
Reply to Bob Powers post on March 15, 2016 at 9:03 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My research from R3 sources says no one was kicked out
>> Instructors or otherwise.
>>
>> All Instructors were there for the entire week.
>>
>> There was some discussion on and a training session by the team to not discuss
>> any thing about Yarnell Hill Fire.prior to the Training session. My understanding
>> is some of the team did not attend or get briefed on this rule but that was corrected
>> during the training session.
>>
>> So much for lessons learned in Arizona. No Discussion on mistakes or actions by GM
>> you are to close in Prescott to the Graves of the Heroes. Discuss all other fires but
>> not Yarnell and not ever on their home turf. My personnel appraisal.
>>
>> I also know that the R3 HS crews are in full discussion during their training on all
>> fires including Yarnell That’s a good thing.
Yep… and a NECESSARY thing.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I never in my life would have believed that could happen in a training session.
>>
>> When people want to discuss and learn they are kept from that discussion
>> of what happened at Yarnell and why?
The very idea that an accredited ‘Wildland Training Academy’ would try, in any way, to establish ANY past fire fatality as ‘off limits for discussion’ is absurd.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The problem is out side R3 the discussion is in full swing and has been for 2 years.
I certainly hope so.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I will add a personnel note here——
>>
>> My dad died on the Rattlesnake fire.
>>
>> They made mistakes and those mistakes are discussed every year and have been
>> sense 1953 they are true lessons learned and I never felt that should not happen.
>>
>> In the 10 Standard orders they discuss each one and the fires that created them.
>>
>> Rattle Snake fire— Communications and Look out as well as
>> The watch outs. Numbers–3,4,7,11,&12.
>>
>> Pure and simply lessons learned.
>>
>> I am more proud of the Fact that my Father was able to leave a legacy of Rules
>> to insure others did not fail to identify the Hazards of the mistakes of the past.
>>
>> There is a shroud over the actions and decisions of Granite
>> Mountain and what happened.
>>
>> Fire Fighters should be able to discuss what happened and
>> find conclusions as to the WHY.
Totally agree.
And in case not enough people have said so often enough…
Your father would be very, very PROUD of you.
Throughout this extended discussion… YOUR “message” has been consistent, loud, clear and strong…
– It’s a dangerous occupation.
– The “rules of engagement” are NOT there for your entertainment.
– They are not “hillbilly”.
– They have already been PAID FOR at the highest possible rate by others who have come before you ( your father included ).
– You MUST follow them at all times… especially when you are hot and tired and more likely to make bad decisions.
– The life you save will be your own.
I offer to the group part of MY training. A poem forwarded occasionally by our safety personnel:
I Could Have Saved A Life That Day (safety poem)
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
It wasn’t that I didn’t care;
I had the time, and I was there.
But I didn’t want to seem a fool,
Or argue over a safety rule.
I knew he’d done the job before;
If I spoke up he might get sore.
The chances didn’t seem that bad;
I’d done the same, he knew I had.
So I shook my head and walked by;
He knew the risks as well as I.
He took the chance, I closed an eye;
And with that act, I let him die.
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
Now every time I see his wife,
I know I should have saved his life.
That guilt is something I must bear;
But isn’t’ something you need to share.
If you see a risk that others take
That puts their health or life at stake,
The question asked or thing you say;
Could help them live another day.
If you see a risk and walk away,
Then hope you never have to say,
“I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.”
That is all.
Woodsman
That should be Smokey the Bear’s new slogan—
not ONLY YOU—-
it is time we stand up — the ones that were there-
how can you even read that above and think not-
thank you woodsman.
There were soooo MANY ‘missed opportunities’ that fateful day that might have changed the actual outcome… and MOST of them were in the “C” of LCES…
“C” = Communicate CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY
Even USFS employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley, the man who was TASKED with leading the effort to tell the family members AND his ‘own profession’ what REALLY happened that day had this to say ( in public ) on June 20, 2014…
Mike Dudley / SAIT Co-Leader
———————————————————————————–
I will say this. There is this point where… well… you can see the dialogue…
and that’s one of the key components.
A lot of people were talking… very few people were communicating.
And you saw that little snippet of when Blue Ridge and Granite are
tryin’ to identify… “Where are you guys? Youre’ in the black?”… “Yea… we’re
makin’ our way down the escape route”.
At no point do you see someone finally go… “Okay… WHERE exactly are you HEADED?”.
That was NEVER defined.
It was almost as if Granite Mountain was bein’ deliberately vague.
——————————————————————————
So now we KNOW that this is one of the ‘conclusions’ that the SAIT had come to when they investigated this incident.
But it was never mentioned in the ‘report’.
No one did ANYTHING wrong. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Not even an inter-agency MEMO calling for a complete review of all training procedures when it comes to the “C” in LCES and how important it is to NOT just ‘talk’ on the fucking radio… but to COMMUNICATE… and if you are ever in doubt about anything someone said or meant… then by God CALL THEM BACK and tell them to CLARIFY!
A few more pushes of a few more ‘transmit’ buttons that day… and a few more direct ‘clarification’ questions… and things *might* have turned out differently.
Very appropriate to the occasion the poem Woodsman has originated. Fortunately this is Saint Patrick’s day so my blessings and may the Irish Gods bless all here who seek the truth. The old Leprechaun is still on the loose and those liars and cover ups of vital information are bound to meet him somewhere down the line and should they finally come clean may he have pity on their asses when he does appear.
They could have saved 17 lives that day but did look the other way. There is always the flip side of the coin. Although the lives of 17 wonderful young heroes can not be repleaced, their terrible work as leaders will lead to better choice of leaders, more respect of safety rules and an understanding of the serious business of training. The end result will be to save future lives once this whole debacle is exposed.
I now see that Marsh would have been a good bicyclist– he was fit for that–but it is more than obvious he was unfit to lead wild land fire fighters in that dangerous profession. Steed I have no opinion of since I know little about his past and how he got to where he could command men in such a risky area, then let them down by leading them to their death. He certainly looked the part and acted, but his knowledge and wit to keep his men alive and even himself was deficient. How they choose leaders for wild land fire fighting grunts certainly failed at the Prescott Hybrid wild land-structure fire fighting level. And if you go to fire fighting school to learn to disobey fire fighting common sense rules then the schooling as well is fundamentally flawed. Just think when a dumb cowboy can absolutely refuse to do what they did then we better check into the intelligence quotient of these so called heroes who dump all sensibility to make themselves look good or obey stupid commands from their superiors. I keep beating that drum, but consider this. We here are after the truth–and the Irish God’s are willing and it will in its time come out. But only because there are enough good friends on this JD site that will not stand for anything less.
In honor of St. Patrick, I shall wear a bit of green. My son being half Mexican and the other half me wears a nice green shamrock tattooed on his arm for all to see. He is proud of his heritage and what he does and is good at it. So is my other son being an RN and my beautiful daughter who helps people with her MA in counseling. That is what we want to see in the Wild Land Fighting Profession. The wild land fighter deserves the best in training, leadership, equipment and pay. They were failed in all areas during the Yarnell Fire effort. Now it behooves the tax payer once they have spent their millions promoting the memorial to come forward with what these young 17 that died did not have. Better training, quality leadership, and better equipment and pay. That will indeed be an honor the dead ones and you can be assured they would prefer that over all the tax payer has now provided for memorial. Do not neglect the living.
lá sona Naomh Pádraig do gach duine ! … agus go háirithe tú , Sonny . Tá áthas orm go bhfuil tú anseo a taitneamh as!
Happy Saint Patrick’s day to everyone!… and especially you, Sonny. I’m glad you’re here to enjoy it!
Woodsman,
Great poem. Thanks for posting it. I certainly plan on using it.
Happy Saint Patrick’s Day
RTS,
No problem. Glad to help. The interesting thing to me is what a message like that meant to me back when I was new compared to what it means to me now with some years under my belt. Evolution by fire and experience I guess. My conscience forces me to give something back in honor of those that helped me when I was so naive & stupid. I rolled my eyes at stuff like that and thought I was smarter than I was. Lucky to be alive and be able to try to get through to the younger firefighters. It ain’t no joke out there!
Happy St Patrick’s Day to you as well.
Woodsman
>> On March 13, 2016 at 11:16 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> didd u go to the ariz wildfire academmy …. see wat Todd Abel did lasst week…./?
>>
>> Then on March 15, 2016 at 5:47 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> tod abel kickced a instructor out for talking trash../.…?..
This deserved some ‘research’… and I can report that there is, at least, NOTHING about any ‘instructor’ getting kicked out of last week’s ‘Arizona Wildfire Incident and Management Academy’ (AWIMA) in any online coverage or article. Not anything I can find, anyway.
Maybe it happened. Maybe not.
Maybe it had something to do with Yarnell. Maybe not.
But then again… the actual ‘coverage’ of this year’s AWIMA was pretty sparse, as compared to even the last two years. There was one short ‘pre-announcement’ that it was going to happen in the ‘Daily Courier’… and then there was one short article that appeared on the day the AWIMA started… but nothing like the media coverage of the last two years. Not even any kind of ‘wrap up’ article(s).
Example: There wasn’t even any media present at the ‘annual dinner’ which is held in the middle of each AWIMA even, where they give out their ‘Southwest Firefighter of the Year’ and ‘Herb McElwee Loyalty’ awards for the calendar year.
And… oddly enough… not even any mention of same on their OWN ‘Facebook page’, which is what they use for ‘updates’ and ‘press releases’ during the AWIMA week itself.
So I suppose I can understand the waning interest on the part of the media… but it remains odd that they would actually post ‘pictures’ from the ‘dinner’ on their own Facebook page, but then not say one word about who they were giving their ‘awards’ to this year.
Is it possible the AWIMA has decided ( this year ) it did NOT really want all that publicity, given some of the criticism that has appeared about ‘previous winners’?
For the previous two years… the ‘award announcements’ were showing up everywhere, and even with their own MSM articles, the very day after they were given out.
Their ‘2013 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year’ award went to Gary Cordes Gary Cordes received the award for (supposedly) rescuing 2 pairs of citizens in Glen Ilah during the Yarnell Hill Fire. The Arizona Republic reported one of those rescues as having been Glen Ilah resident Bryan Smith and his (then) 84 year old cousin Pearl Moore, but Bryan Smith himself has now positively identified Prescott National Forest employee Dan Sullivan as the one who rescued him and Pearl on June 30, 2013, and NOT Gary Cordes. It is also highly likely that the other ‘rescue’ for which the Arizona Republic said Cordes was receiving this award was also NOT actually performed by Gary Cordes.
Last year’s ‘2014 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year’ award went to GregSmith. Greg Smith was instrumental in establishing the Ironwood Hotshots from Northwest Fire in Tucson. He was their Superintendent since its inception. The entire ‘Ironwood Hotshots’ organization was ‘disbanded’ in 2014 because of insurance and liability concerns following the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy.
This year’s ‘2015 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year’ award… ???
Who knows. There doesn’t seem to be any ‘public’ announcement about that yet, not even on their own AWIMA Facebook page, even though the award was (supposedly) presented back on March 9, 2016.
Their public Facebook page has a posting from March 9, 2016 with 3 photos taken at the fourth annual ‘Tribute Dinner’… but they make absolutely NO mention of who won this year’s ‘Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year’ award OR this year’s ‘Herb McElwee Loyalty Award’.
https://www.facebook.com/Arizona-Wildfire-and-Incident-Management-Academy-113390165360151/
————————————————————————-
March 9 at 4:32pm ·
AWIMA attendees gathered together for the fourth annual Tribute Dinner held at the Prescott Resort. The evening is set aside to honor fallen firefighters, award the 2015 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year and announce the recipient of the Herb McElwee Loyalty award.
( 3 Photos posted taken at the 2016 Tribute Dinner at the Prescott Resort )
( Absolutely NO mention of who won their ‘awards’ this year )
————————————————————————-
I suppose we will find out, at some point, who they gave their 2015 ‘awards’ to, but it’s still odd that it wouldn’t already be common/public knowledge.
There is also this ( which they DID see fit to post on their PUBLIC Facebook page )…
** FIRE SHELTER DRILL
A video from this year’s Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy ( AWIMA ) of a complete ‘get into fire shelters’ drill as part of the S-130 Basic Fire Fighter class. They drop their packs on the edge of a small grass lot outside of Emry Riddle University, and slowly walk about 10 paces, and attempt to deploy. One of the FFs ( the woman with the long hair ) could never even get the fire shelter out of its pack. Everyone else eventually deploys and they are all under their shelters while she is still standing there struggling to even open her shelter pack.
Here is the video…
https://www.facebook.com/113390165360151/videos/vb.113390165360151/10151384690393208/?type=2&theater
The AWIMA official caption/text for this video…
—————————————————————————————–
Basic Fire Fighting Training – fire shelter deployment
Academy students in the S-130 Basic Fire Fighter class train on the tricky business of deploying a fire shelter. Fire shelters are the last line of defense when facing a fire entrapment if escape is no longer possible. Learning to deploy them properly can mean the difference between life and death.
Some of the comments left on this video…
Comment from Aileen Casillas – March 12, 2013 at 2:44pm
NOTE: This is apparently the FF who couldn’t even get her shelter out of her pack…
This was fun but a very tightly packed practice shelter is not! Hahaha… Oops. ( smile emoticon ).
Comment from Dani Koile – March 12, 2013 at 3:27pm
Now use a fan to simulate wind.
Comment from Cynthia Sequanna – March 12, 2013 at 3:36pm
Shake and bake!
Comment from Uriah Hernandez – March 12, 2013 at 4:23pm
My Cap would kill me if I moved that slow lol
MOVE,MOVE,MOVE lol alway a fun drill
Comment from Geri Mexicano – March 12, 2013 at 5:09pm
That seemed pretty slow. Hopefully they’re quicker when they need to be.
Comment from Ángel Lorenzo Gutiérrez – March 13, 2013 at 7:39am
In Spain this technique is not use!!! Why???
—————————————————————————————–
So there is ( apparently, in the PUBLIC comments ) firefighter trainee Aileen Casillas saying that the S-130 Basic Firefighter Class ‘Shelter’ drill was (quote) “fun!”… even though she never even got her shelter out of its pack… and that ( to her ) was all ‘Hahaha’ and ‘Opps’ and ‘Smiley Face Emoticon’.
QUESTION: If you take an S-130 class and you end up (obviously) ‘burning to death’ during the ‘shelter drill’… do you still get your S-130 quals… or do you still have to demonstrate you know how to get a fire shelter out of its pack before you can say you have ‘successfully completed’ S-130?
Please tell me it’s the latter.
And just for reference… here are pretty much the ONLY ‘media’ articles that appeared regarding this year’s AWIMA…
NOTE: This first article puts the number of ‘participants’ at 745, but another one used the term ‘registrants’ and put the number at 900.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Sincere connection to fire work for Wildland Fire Academy folks
Published: March 9, 2016 6 a.m – By Sue Tone
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/mar/09/sincere-connection-fire-work-wildland-fire-academy/
————————————————————
PHOTO: Shows 5th year WFF Katie Markey
teaching the S130/190 Basic Wildland Firefighting
Class and showing students how to get under
the ‘green’ practice fire shelters.
AWIMA attracts highly qualified instructors and students from the Southwest and the nation. This year 600 of the 745 participants are from Arizona, the rest come from 27 other states, said Public Affairs Officer Loretta Benavidez, who is with Lincoln National Forest, Alamogordo, New Mexico. The seven-day program offers instruction and skills in such areas as wildland fire investigation, incident command management, prescribed fire implementation, working with news media, and also for those wanting to find out if fighting wildland fires is for them.
————————————————————
This one puts the number of ‘registrants’ at 749, with only 340 ‘in attendance’ on the first day.
Also confirms Todd Abel as the “Incident Commander” for this year’s AWIMA…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Annual Arizona Wildfire & Incident Management Academy kicks off
Published: March 6, 2016 6 a.m
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/mar/06/annual-arizona-wildfire-incident-management-academ/
————————————————————
The 14th Annual Arizona Wildfire & Incident Management Academy kicked off at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University on Saturday, March 5. Around 340 students, instructors and incident management team members were on campus as the week-long training began and of the 749 students registered for this year, about 600 are from Arizona according to a press release from Arizona Wildfire Academy Public Information Officer Punky Moore. Other students were from 27 states, including New York, Florida and Montana.
At the morning briefing on Saturday, Incident Commander for the Academy Todd Abel told students to challenge their instructors and absorb as much information as possible.
“Building the relationships that will be important to you down the road, starts at the academy,” Abel said in the release.
————————————————————
And here is the article that put the number of ‘registrants’ at 900…
NOTE: AWIMA classes generally cost about $65 per day per student.
ALSO NOTE: As much as they might have wanted to avoid it…. this MSM article had comments on it that were still asking questions about the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Perfecting firefighting skills draws all ages to academy
Published: March 11, 2016 6 a.m. – By Sue Tone
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/mar/11/perfecting-firefighting-skills-draws-all-ages-acad/
————————————————————
PHOTO CAPTION
Students in the Basic Wildland Firefighting class, dressed in canary yellow shirts and wearing hardhats, carried their Pulaski tools up a hill Wednesday, March 9, to cut line on the northern edge of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University (ERAU).
This was just one part of their field exercise at the Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy this past week. On Thursday, they headed out Iron Springs Road to work with chain saws.
The training is part of a certificate program that provides students with entry-level wildfire fighting skills.
Several in the class are fresh out of high school, others are seasoned professionals, said Ben Roche of Chino Valley Fire (CVFD) and lead instructor of this field day class.
Joe Weathersby is one of the latter students. The systems planner with Arizona Public Service (APS) took the week-long course not to fight fires, but to be a liaison between his company and firefighters. “I can be the eyes and ears for APS. I’m taking this class to understand the language – the jargon – and be able to communicate what’s happening,” Weathersby said.
For Dee Warneking, 57, with the Sherwood Volunteer Fire Department near Williams, attending the Academy is “just another form of service.” She worked as a critical care nurse for 15 years after retiring from the Air Force, and helped the Sherwood fire department set up its medical program.
“I live there. I want to be able to protect the homes and protect the community,” Warneking said, adding that it’s OK to have service be her lifetime work.
At the other end of the age range is Jake Clawson, 18. He is the family’s third generation of firefighters, and said he wants eventually to hire on to a Type I Hotshot crew. For now, he works with a CVFD crew team.
This year’s Academy is the largest in its 14-year history, said Deputy Incident Commander Dirch Foreman, with 52 classes covering 48 subjects and attracting more than 900 students, instructors, vendors and support staff. ERAU hosts the event during its spring break, and offers on-site dry camping for students.
Some prefer RV campers or hotels, but Keenen Reiter, 30, and fellow members of the Jerome Volunteer Fire Department are sleeping outdoors – showers are available.
“Camping in 32-degree weather is part of the whole experience,” Reiter said with enthusiasm. “The Academy has been outstanding. I have not regretted one minute of it.”
Reiter’s quote for the day: “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
“That means we’re a little bit crazy – the good kind of crazy,” he was quick to add.
Two other students offered their quotes. Mikayla Baker, 18, a Dewey resident, said, “You put the wet stuff on the red stuff” and “You take every fire very seriously because this is the new norm.”
Doug Williams from Phoenix proffered his alliterative advice with a big laugh: “Prior proper preparation prevents poor performance.”
————————————————————
Here is the most recent ‘comment’ made on this article…
Comment from: Rcadya – 4 days, 3 hours ago
Wonder how many of our late Hotshot crew – all but one of whom perished in the wildfire – attended this wildfire academy? This is not meant in any way to be disrespectful – just curious.
** PHOTOGRAPH OF ERIC MARSH’S DOG ( AND BOOT ) ON DISPLAY AT AWIMA
Last but not least… there was this ‘story’ that appeared about a special ‘photograph’ that was on display this week at Amanda Marsh’s ‘Eric Marsh Foundation’ booth in the merchandising section of this year’s AWIMA conference/classes.
Two things about this photograph/article.
1. It really is an extraordinary photograph. It’s worth a look… and you can now buy unframed prints of it directly on Amanda Marsh’s ‘Eric Marsh Foundation’ website.
2. Notice how this Prescott resident, even now, describes what she believes happened to the GM Hotshots She simply says they were ‘caught undefended’.
The Frame and I – Gallery and Frame Shop
Article Title: 19 Hotshots Memorial frame
Published: March 5, 2016
http://frameandi.com/19-hotshots-memorial-frame/
———————————————————————
We were recently approached by Donna from Whiskers Barkery in downtown Prescott to frame a very special photo. This photo, of one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots buggies with fallen hotshot Eric Marsh’s dog and boot on the bumper has an important meaning for those of us who live in Prescott, Yarnell and the surrounding communities.
You see, on June 30th 2013 we lost 19 of our brave firefighters in a wildfire near Yarnell that caught them undefended.
Along with Donna and Whiskers Barkery, we wanted to make a fitting 19 Hotshots Memorial frame from The Frame & I to display and preserve this precious photograph. Firefighters from all over the southwestern USA will see it at the Arizona Wildfire Academy at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University over the next few days. It’s at the Eric Marsh Foundation’s booth. We are hoping for a successful and educational Academy this year, as well as a lot of support for the Foundation.
( PHOTOGRAPH OF FINISHED FRAME WITH PHOTO )
( OF ERIC MARSH’S DOG AND BOOT )
Photograph Caption: Heroes in life, Legends in our hearts.
The photo is courtesy of Donna at Whiskers Barkery.
We’ve donated this frame at Donna’s request, to the Eric Marsh foundation, whose mission “is a non-profit organization created to support survivors of wildland line-of-duty deaths as well as living wildland firefighters”.
———————————————————————
SIDENOTE: Ex-firefighter Holly Niell was one of the ‘volunteers’ manning the ‘Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters’ booth at this year’s AWIMA. Neill is being ‘thanked’ for doing that on the ‘Eric Marsh Foundation’ PUBLIC Facebook page. Other ‘volunteers’ manning the booth were… Eric Naumetz, Rex Naumetz, Karen Norris, Tim Armenta and John Marsh ( Eric Marsh’s father ).
Reply to Gary Olson post on March 16, 2016 at 6:02 pm
>> Gary Olsen said…
>>
>> The reason it sounds true to me, is because Shit-For-Brains
>> has something he had to tell Willis, who then had something
>> he had to tell Paladino (Prescott City Attorney) who then had
>> to tell it AZ State Forestry, and that COULD have been about
>> The Argument, but I think it may have been more specific than that.
It’s never a bad time to review what was ACTUALLY said ( and how even where McDonough apparently chose to end his ‘story’ couldn’t have been the real ‘end’ )…
The Arizona Republic – AZCENTRAL
Article title: Yarnell fire: New account of hotshot deaths
Published: 11:49 p.m. MST April 3, 2015
By Robert Anglen, Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/04/yarnell-fire-new-account-hotshot-deaths/25284535/
From the article…
———————————————————————————–
Paladini offered the following account of McDonough’s story, as he says was related to him by Willis, who disagrees:
While moving vehicles with the Blue Ridge crew, McDonough allegedly overheard radio traffic between Marsh and Steed, who was with 17 crew members atop a ridge that had burned days earlier.
In the radio call, Marsh told Steed to leave the “black,” which was safe, and join him at the ranch. Steed protested, saying such a move would be dangerous. The radio exchange turned into a dispute.
“My understanding of the argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed … was that Steed did not want to go down,” Paladini said.
According to Paladini’s account, Steed objected until Marsh gave him a direct order to descend.
As the back-and-forth conversation continued, it became apparent that Steed, a U.S. Marine veteran, consented to the command to relocate the team. But he told Marsh he thought it was a bad idea.
During one of the final radio transmissions, according to the account, Steed told Marsh the crew was not going to make it.
“That is what Darrell (Willis) told me,” Paladini said.
———————————————————————————–
To this day… the ONLY part of that ‘story’ that Darrell Willis himself has ever had any ‘disagreement’ with is the use of the term “direct order” when it comes to whatever it was that Marsh said to Steed to finally convince him to bring GM out of the safe black.
All Willis had to say about that ONE point is that he doesn’t recall McDonough using the term “direct order” when the same story was being told to him.
So that’s it. Just a disagreement about the ‘phrasing’ used.
Willis has never denied ANY of the REST of that ‘story’ as related by Paladini, including the last part where there was supposedly a transmission from Steed to Marsh saying…
“We’re not going to make it”.
So until we hear more from Brendan McDonough and those other three Blue Ridge Hotshots who Paladini confirms WERE also ‘listening’ to that radio traffic that day, we can/should assume that this story is accurate.
But it is then ‘not credible’ to think there wasn’t even MORE conversation between Steed and Marsh following that “We’re not going to make it” announcement from Steed and the next known radio transmission from Steed at 4:39 PM… which we can hear for ourselves in one of Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s videos…
Jesse Steed: “Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.”
The original SAIT investigation said this transmission was ‘broken’ and ‘over-modulated’ and ‘hard to understand’.
It was no such thing.
It was just LOUD… because there were already at least TWO chainsaws running full blast right there near Jesse, already ‘clearing’ the already-chosen deployment site, and Jesse had to YELL into his microphone just as much to hear himself talk as to make sure John Burfiend in Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ could hear him as well.
So… how MUCH time was there between Steed’s “We’re not going to make it” announcement and then then first 4:39 psuedo-MAYDAY call?
Hard to say.
And what else, exactly, was SAID over the GM intra-crew in that same timeframe?
Also hard to say… until Brendan and/or those 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots finally tell us.
Steed might have ‘frozen up’ at the point of the realization of “We’re not going to make it”, and the GM intra-crew could have ‘lit up’ with exchanges between Steed and Marsh.
Marsh might have even ENCOURAGED them to ‘haul ass FORWARD!’ and then received ANOTHER “No… we can’t make it” call from Steed before ‘deploying’ even entered anyone’s plans.
Marsh might have even known ( then ) what WE know now… that if there was time for him to run BACK to them from wherever Marsh was, closer to safety, then there was certainly still time for THEM to run FORWARD and cover that same distance in that same time.
But Marsh was ‘out ahead’ and had already ‘covered that distance’ between them. Marsh had that slight edge of ‘familiarity’ to be able to know there WAS ‘time’ for that.
Steed had no idea what lie ahead… and there might then have been more smoke in his location than even where Eric was and a ‘forward run’ might have just looked like a complete ‘blind run into the unknown’ from Steed’s position.
Even if Steed really did know what to do, at that point, Marsh might have still then been barking orders at him while he was now trying to cover the distance back towards them.
They could have been orders like “Find a deployment site. Do it NOW. Clear it. Burn it”, while he was running. It might not have even occurred to Marsh that the laws of physics were still in full operation at that moment and that Steed and the crew DID have the TIME to make it to at least where HE was when Steed said “We’re not going to make it”.
All I know is… any kind of transmission from Steed along the lines of…
“Hey Eric… guess what… we’re not going to make it”
…could NOT have been the ‘end of that conversation’ at that time.
That’s just where Brendan himself was choosing to ‘end’ his ‘reporting’ of what was going down even when HE was talking to Willis.
** THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE
Back when this ‘story’ about what Brendan told Willis first broke… Arizona News Channel ’12News’ ran its own article about it… and they also obtained their OWN ‘comments’ from players in the story like Paladini and Willis.
12 News
Article Title: New details in Yarnell fire
Published: 10:32 p.m. MST April 7, 2015 – By Kevin Kennedy
http://legacy.12news.com/story/news/12-news/2015/04/07/12news-yarnell-fire-hotshots-investigation/25439911/
From that article…
——————————————————————————-
Willis would not give specifics about the conversation he had with McDonough but would tell us what he told McDonough.
“The truth will set you free regardless of how it looks, the truth will set you free,” Willis said.
——————————————————————————-
Of all the stupid things Darrell Willis has had to say in the aftermath of this tragedy… you DO have to give him a THUMBS UP for THAT statement.
Because ( on THIS point )… he is absolutely correct.
Charlie says
MARCH 16, 2016 AT 9:54 AM
Gary that one sent chills up my back. Whew, I think you are getting at the reality of that fatal day.
OK…you caught me. I can’t lie to my old friend Charlie. That was a bad idea that I just assumed everyone would take with a grain of salt coming from me. I received that information in an anonymous email…but it rings true to me
But since I can’t verify it right now, you can take it for whatever it is worth to you. It’s just that I have a long stated policy not to sit on information that I receive, so there it is.
The reason it sounds true to me, is because Shit-For-Brains has something he had to tell Willis, who then had something he had to tell Paladino (Prescott City Attorney) who then had to tell it AZ State Forestry, and that COULD have been about The Argument, but I think it may have been more specific than that.
In any case, there are dozens, if not hundreds of people who now know everything that was said in the crews final minutes since dozens of firefighters on that fire had the crews “crew” net programmed into their handhelds, including those final words. If they are true, which as I have said, I personally believe they are accurate..
Like I said before…the Fucking CIA can’t keep secrets like those people in and around Prescott can. This has got to be one of the biggest (in terms of people in the know) cover-ups in the history of…whatever.
Yes SFB is riding the wave for a while and indications are he came clean with Willis and Willis came clean with the lawyer. Seems that is as far as it goes for now. Amanda did say in one of her talks that Marsh would first be loved then hated. Does she know something she does not want public and might someday be explained when the truth comes our? She certainly disposed of that cell phone in the trash soon enough when even a ribbon tied by Marsh would be a relic of value.
Those fatal talks between Marsh and Steed if proven should make wild land bosses serious about protecting the young men they are responsible for. You can face charges for leaving your dog in a hot car and rightly so, but leaving a child is deadly serious business. So would leading 17 young souls into an inferno be. This is what we say with the GMHS, then we wonder why so many have their mouths shut as to the truth and why Donut held back such vital information to lead the world to the real story.
It must bear hard on their consciences–good lord that information is so vital in getting the seriousness of this situation out so it is not repeated to kill more vital young wild land firefighters.
After due consideration I have come to TWO conclusions.
Dale1—-
1. This person with all the statements made has one thing that stands out.
His mental capacity to form Sentences or actually spell the simplest things.
That leads me to my first conclusion that it would be hard to believe that he is higher than a
Crewman. Their is no way that Dale1 could achieve a higher position in any Fire agency.
Dale1 dose not have the capacity to fill out reports or records or send memos up or down the chain of command. Or do any supervisory training. So I seriously doubt his credentials.
2. This person Dale1 is putting on a front to cover there identity. By intentionally doing the one liners with serious mistakes to through off any suspicion as to an Identity. If this is the case then Dale1 may be someone we know who was on here previous or some one recognizable by others in R3.
I am beginning to think NUMBER 2.
This opens a whole can of worms including why Dale1 is throwing out bits and pieces of information
to discredit some unnamed individual with out using their name?
Or Identifying who Dale1 is.
We know he is in the SW and in Fire. That would be R3 the only area there that was in Red Flag this last week is Eastern New Mexico or Western Texas.
So for who dose he work? FS, BLM, BIA, Park Service, Wild life refuge, State, County or City.
A lot to chose from so we are still left with a lot of questions as to what the hell Dale1 is trying to
do or accomplish.
Otherwise we are stuck with number 1 and a very uneducated uninformed individual with a lack of ability to ascertain any Safety Rules or ascertain some semblance of intellectual discussion.
If the indicators are true this person could never reach a crew boss level with any competency.
A true Grunt dirt thrower with no mind of their own. I can not believe this to be true at least the Feds require a High School Education as I believe the State dose to.
My friends on IM you will have to make your own decision.
I am sticking with a Faker with unknown reasons. His total sentences are just way out there for any other choice.
As Woodsman said below he is full of shit————
Bob,
Or it could be the manifestation of the dumbing down of America in all its glory. With all the tweeting, twirling, hashtagging, faceplant, social networking…a lot of society has lost the ability to communicate effectively. He’s probably thumbing that literary artwork out on a phone. I don’t know what most of the social networking crap is and I have no desire to find out. I do text and try not to bastardize the English language but I know I do anyway despite these efforts. (that was a run-on sentence, right there)
If anyone has anything to say I think we should let them. You never know what will contain useful information. Of course, I don’t make the rules here so this is just my opinion.
I love you, Bob but I sincerely recommend against you ‘calling out’ anyone here for mistakes in spelling or grammar. I have learned to ‘respell’ your words as I read them. At the end of the day, I know what you are saying even with mistakes and that’s what matters. I am far from precise in my spelling and grammar as well.
Dale1 may be full of shit. He also may have something positive to contribute to the search for truth. Anything’s possible. My opinion from the few posts by him that I’ve read is that his credibility is low (‘honest mistake??!!) but it’s not zero………..yet.
If someone got ‘shut down’ at the Arizona fire academy, I would like to know the details. It could mean that someone was attempting to be honest about what happened at Yarnell Hill and by talking about it was trying to make the way we fight wildfires in this country safer. Either way, I want to know what happened. I guarantee that if something like that happened, every staff member/instructor there would know about it. I just wish there was someone we know that was there who would be willing to share the absolute 100% truth about it.
Woodsman
After dealing with Dale1 for a year what I said was just my conclusions.
Not to stop his input but to attempt to get more from it which has been futile for some time. Try as we may to get him to say more has been frustrating.
Yes in my hast or my spell checking that I rely on to much I accept the wrong words.
I hope I have never made a sentence as bad as Dail1, but I do string stuff together and Spell words like they sound with out the silent letters I confess on here I do not double check a lot of the time. Which I should do.
All I got was from a couple of friends that were there. nothing about any one being removed or “shut down”. at least they herd of nothing to that extent. There was a no discussion on Yarnell that was discussed by the Team.
Haven’t herd from RTS he is on his Lecture/training and reunion business right now. I believe he is in Southern Calif. now on the Old HS Superintendents Reunion. He stays on the move. I believe he comes up on Team call in R3 next Month. Maybe he can have more info to share?????
bob i work…. fire season in sw…. red flag!!//… tod abel kickced a instructor out for talking trash../.…?..
Was that at the podium when that event took place or sidelines? Was it trash talk on a topic or a human being? Is this first hand or third party reported information?
WOW Dale1—You have to be going on rumors…….Were you at the session?
My research from R3 sources says no one was kicked out Instructors or otherwise.
All Instructors were there for the entire week. There was some discussion on
and a training session by the team to not discuss any thing about Yarnell Hill Fire.
prior to the Training session. My understanding is some of the team did not attend or get briefed on this rule but that was corrected during the training session.
So much for lessons learned in Arizona. No Discussion on mistakes or actions by GM you are to close in Prescott to the Graves of the Heroes. Discuss all other fires but not Yarnell and not ever on their home turf. My personnel appraisal.
I also know that the R3 HS crews are in full discussion during their training on all fires including Yarnell That’s a good thing.
I never in my life would have believed that could happen in a training session.
When people want to discuss and learn they are kept from that discussion of what happened at Yarnell and why?
WTKTT is right—-Nothing happened here just move on no more discussion.
The problem is out side R3 the discussion is in full swing and has been for 2 years.
I will add a personnel note here——
My dad died on the Rattlesnake fire.
They made mistakes and those mistakes are discussed every year and have been sense 1953 they are true lessons learned and I never felt that should not happen.
In the 10 Standard orders they discuss each one and the fires that created them.
Rattle Snake fire— Communications and Look out as well as The watch outs.
Numbers–3,4,7,11,&12.
Pure and simply lessons learned. I am more proud of the Fact that my Father was able to leave a legacy of Rules to insure others did not fail to identify the Hazards of the mistakes of the past.
There is a shroud over the actions and decisions of Granit Mountain and what happened. Fire Fighters should be able to discuss what happened and find conclusions as to the WHY.
Bob,
” I am more proud of the Fact that my Father was able to leave a legacy of Rules to insure others did not fail to identify the Hazards of the mistakes of the past.”
You’re a great man & firefighter. I wish we had more with guts and honesty like you. We need way more like you.
Woodsman
I also feel the same as woodsman on Bob powers and I too want to thank him for his honesty
Reply to Bob Powers post on March 15, 2016 at 9:03 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My research from R3 sources says no one was kicked out
>> Instructors or otherwise.
>>
>> All Instructors were there for the entire week.
>>
>> There was some discussion on and a training session by the
>> team to not discuss any thing about Yarnell Hill Fire.prior to
>> the Training session. My understanding is some of the team
>> did not attend or get briefed on this rule but that was corrected
>> during the training session.
>>
>> So much for lessons learned in Arizona. No Discussion on
>> mistakes or actions by GM you are to close in Prescott to
>> the Graves of the Heroes. Discuss all other fires but not
>> Yarnell and not ever on their home turf. My personnel appraisal.
>>
>> I also know that the R3 HS crews are in full discussion during
>> their training on all fires including Yarnell That’s a good thing.
Yep… and a NECESSARY thing.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I never in my life would have believed that could happen
>> in a training session.
>>
>> When people want to discuss and learn they are kept from
>> that discussion of what happened at Yarnell and why?
The very idea that an accredited ‘Wildland Training Academy’ would try, in any way, to establish ANY past fire fatality as ‘off limits for discussion’ is absurd.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The problem is out side R3 the discussion is in full swing and
>> has been for 2 years.
I certainly hope so.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I will add a personnel note here——
>>
>> My dad died on the Rattlesnake fire.
>>
>> They made mistakes and those mistakes are discussed
>> every year and have been sense 1953 they are true lessons
>> learned and I never felt that should not happen.
>>
>> In the 10 Standard orders they discuss each one and the fires
>> that created them.
>>
>> Rattle Snake fire— Communications and Look out as well as
>> The watch outs. Numbers–3,4,7,11,&12.
>>
>> Pure and simply lessons learned.
>>
>> I am more proud of the Fact that my Father was able to
>> leave a legacy of Rules to insure others did not fail to identify
>> the Hazards of the mistakes of the past.
>>
>> There is a shroud over the actions and decisions of Granite
>> Mountain and what happened.
>>
>> Fire Fighters should be able to discuss what happened and
>> find conclusions as to the WHY.
Totally agree.
And in case not enough people have said so often enough…
Your father would be very, very PROUD of you.
Throughout this extended discussion… YOUR “message” has been consistent, loud, clear and strong.
It’s a dangerous occupation.
The “rules of engagement” are NOT there for your entertainment.
The are not “hillbilly”.
They have already been PAID FOR at the highest possible rate
by others who have come before you ( your father included ).
You MUST follow them at all times… especially when you are hot
and tired and more likely to make bad decisions.
The life you save will be your own.
Hi Dale1. I am very sorry for the area where one judges based on your style of comment. We live in a programmable system. You be You and that’s fine be me. Now again I am asking what I did already but also help me understand you and the new news because it is important to me what you said. You have to understand I find it important to know was it a topic or human being this was over? If you said too much already… I actually understand that too. I’m still carrying forward 2015 wildland firefighters convention at Bucky’s and its content and Joanna Dodder pulling me aside and I can guarantee I was there first and had no idea 500-700 firefighters would be getting drunk at Bucky’s but I do wish the open ways they spoke that night came here public so if you were one of those drunk people I understand and Bob Powers is not right to assess the language part because I have met higher ups who can’t read or write well. As the system furthers along it is true more requirements are set on newcomers but not the current or soon to retire or retired ones. Please come back and answer best you can or call 480-280-5813 and leave voicemail …thank you
I would have to disagree on your assessment of Education.
The government will not hire any one who has not completed High School.
They also will not promote those who have trouble filling out simple reports, and can not express them selves in training lectures.
What I said above has been Hiring requirements for years.
Each individual is rated on their Performance annually. That performance includes the above information. That performance ratting is used in evaluating your promotions through a competitive evaluation of all applicants.
I would just like Dale1 to take the time to put forth a full and complete statement
if he truly has information to discuss here.
I am not judging his style of comment but his lack of information.
I still believe his comments are a deception to cover who he is and just point a finger with no other information. If you throw it at a wall and it sticks you made a point. He is always to busy to follow up due to Fire or Red Flag warnings no one works 24/7 he has days off and nights that he could expand on his topics.
That is another reason I think he is playing a game.
Dale1 Has been given every opportunity to explain himself over and over.
That is what we are doing here asking for more information. All he has done is reply one sentence at a time with nothing more than the first statement.
I will say again don’t hold your breath for any more info than what he has already imparted.
Saying a person has to finish high school is a. Requirement and I did not say that I said current and due to retire and retired …some do not know how to read or write or both and I said newcomers are different but a lot from the baby boomer generation and some from my generation did not receive the proper public education and that’s why our grandkids of today are in the deeply rooted programmable system and look at the older generation different because they are bred different than long ago. Individualism is becoming a thing of the past and I can tell you I learned that most in knowing Sonny because he is his own style of mountain man but just last night Bill tried to firmly tell me I could not have possibly hiked a certain area describing it to Sonny and Sonny choose to lean towards Bill and support him and the problem is not only have I hiked it I slept there all by myself and so he is trying to be serious and Sonny encouraged it not at all would you think either one was my friend but two old men thinking they know the mountains and I know shit so for this area I challenge Sonny Bill and me to be dropped off tightly blindfold and see who makes it back and see which one makes it back legally and not breaking any laws because those two seem to think they have the constitutional right to go where they please and I tend to think at five pm I prefer to stay on path versus dropping down a steep terrain with sliding rip rap when my tummy is so swollen that I can’t see my own feet so yes I prefer to be on my own path vs being led by a mountain goat. I have accepted Sonny has his style of the mountains but I am firm I never will support Sonny saved my life had we went my way at 12:38pm we had many hours to get to car but he has his way of thinking that my way would of killed me but I don’t support that nor that him coming back for me was a heroic move because so many times Sonny compares a hike to one of my bad ones because I’m spent. Yet I have hiked alone or at times with others very long hikes from Congress to surprise or wickenburg or Prescott or aguila n back…and on those trails I saw more quads than walkers or hikers and so when snowbird quad mentality Bill tells the desert walker his view…he is 100% wrong because I’ve done it…in all this I learned you get better treated by the state of Arizona if you feel like Sonny because my backpack has written permission slips and state land passes and I do my best to respect such and took the same hikes but I’m the one state came after and not Sonny after all I have done for this state…I always loved Arizona and its terrain but since the fire I lost all respect for the people running it if they can be so wrong…I’d be shaking my hand if I was them because I can’t tell you how much funds I made them for educating people on state land permits and hunting permits and prickley pear permits and so on…I cannot tell the state how many homeless people now live in a home because of my sharing to them and Sonny lived on ten acres west of the grand canyon…a place I name the gates of hell…and he said he was OK there yet when I was there I heard machine gun fire 25 ft away – sonny was neighbors on one side mexican cartel and other side deputy sheriff and the sheriff was called on a Thursday 930pm and does not show up until Sunday stating to sonny he told the guys he would handle it and looked to me as who am I and sonny tells him you said I was getting old and needed a walker so I got the desert walker Joy. The man looked at Sonny than me and was bewildered. He said you are not married? I than made born the saying yes…sonny and I are the old married couple..he’s old and I’m married. We sure bicker like an old married couple and share meals like one…our hikes and times were intensely educational because we are two different styles of people and hiking…sonny goes out with nothing and survives where when we first met I carried a lot of gear and water…86#s to start with as we weighed it but on good weather days..55-60#. So I did learn from Sonny some good stuff like you can survive the desert without carrying in water and use the terrain except he did not know you can’t legally eat prickley pear fruit without a permit and so he hates hiking with me being educated of Arizona laws because he says its bogus… Sonny and I will always clash for so many reasons but we are one another’s caregivers and for that we remain as is…so it cannot be labelled a dysfunctional phase because we both have learned a healthy dose of knowledge off another but you want to see me get hot than get on topic that you know this terrain better than me as a snowbird when I knew all the ok timers from the 1800s-early 1900s or cuisine all day old school cooking because one time I cooked and made a real nice fancy Italian dish called osobucco and just the name itself got sonny to open a can of sardines and be good so I don’t bother even cooking anymore but just because I don’t does not mean I lost it because I won’t lose that just not into foods much as it has not been there for me much at all…even stopped the Hershey with almond bar every ten weeks just a bad phase in my life I reckon…So anyways Sonny- thank you for being kinder today. And don’t say you are always a nice guy…and always kind because from where you stand that may be true but in some parts to knowing you it has been a challenge beyond my capabilities and maybe you see that nowadays I am not you nor crave to be you but anytime Bill or you want to take me on…bring it. Im capable there and again blind fold…sorry for any typos…
Oh and where is dale1 to reply…I don’t give it much thought or weight for pop ins like that..reminds me of an old username on here that did that…sonny by the way you are one of my desert mentors because I would have not known about my local I dian root and its location and you cut into it and put that in your mouth for endurance hike to create moisture and saliva and so you are extremely intelligent on the desert and I think I could not have made same challenge before I met you without having my gear…because of you I can do it without gear so thank you…you are priceless.,.. I wish you the best.. In all you do wherever you are….because you deserve only the best…Happy trails my hiking pal,…until we meet again in a few weeks…
Don’t feel bad Dale, I have a bat hide and still misspell–especially if I had a few beers. Sometimes I write incomplete sentences and at other times try to revamp the English language to my notions at the time. So forgive me if I am on the low rung of intelligence–seems I have lost a few brain cells over the past few years. Give us what you know–the great ones here will sort out the shit from the shinola and we will all benefit. Keep reporting but give us a longer synopsis of things if you get settled enough to do it. Maybe a lot more of who you are and what you do would be pleasing to the people here.
That guy with the black GMC–we did look for it to see what trailer he lives in. He could be high class trailer trash. Dean, my brother in law was–at least in Phoenix where he rented a trailer. Actually he was a multi millionaire, owned 5 air planes–he taught WW2 Veterans how to fly planes–and actually had a nice home in Mora, MN. I never liked trailers–they rock too much in the wind and otherwise. But $70,000 pickup trucks are pretty but I do prefer my 73. If you open the door on his truck I bet it says made in Mexico. Fords do of that cost. My 73 is 100% American made and you can sit on the hood without denting it. It uses points instead of all the electronic do dads that are designed to keep a shade tree mechanic from fixing. That 350 engine in front of a four speed that weighs nearly as much as the engine comes up the Yarnell Hill faster than a bat out of hell if I want it to. Also all the fancy cars and pickups without scratches give me plenty of space–they don’t know if that old beater has good brakes or not or if I have insurance. I have both but they don’t need to know. And strangely this old truck that cost me $1200 cash and had only a little over 50,000 miles on it but had been in a fender bender and had set for years in a hanger. So a black fender and strange looking door sets it off so I can easily find it in a crowded parking lot.
http://www.aifuneralhome.com/2015/06/23/dean-carl-johnson/
Joy says it could be construed wrong what I said about trailer trash. The way I intended was that your abode does not necessarily indicate your class. I myself was brought up in a tent and had my youngest son brought into a lean too when I was mining fire agate at Deer Creek, Arizona. Some situations require rough living according to some standards. We never thought of it that way–at least I did not. My sisters thought it bad to have to bath in a tin tub but they always got the first baths–boys followed since the girls were cleaner.
Still I would not trade that kind of growing up for any kind of other. What kid gets to hunt all day or work in a mine if he chooses. Fortunately we did not have an overbearing father. It is what Joy talks about–the system. We say we encourage independent thinking in this educational system but then I saw 17 firefighters go to their death and yet I have to attribute the deaths to the folly of their leaders.
The leaders that are today alive after the Yarnell Fire give us no solid information on why their men died. They can only say that God, accident, or the determination to do what they do–save structures account for their deaths. Yet we know from Donut’s lack of respect of wild land fire fighting safety rules (hill billy he says) leads right to how deficient those men were in respecting the very safety measures that would have kept them alive. My own instinct kept Joy and I alive but that I can see came from being familiar with the terrain and dangers of getting hooked down hill toward a near by- wild fire. If I had reviewed the wild land safety rules at the time I could have only said those make good common sense. You really can not argue that going down a steep box in canyon into a maze of dry brush is an intelligent thing even if you are a structure protector. But then to risk 17 lives because they believe in your expert bossing abilities and some flimsy fire blankets was total insanity.
I chided Joy when I came back for her that the State would have me up for murder if I had not returned to drag her back with me. She was inclined to do what the GMHS actually did. But the murder thing was not a joke since I knew the danger and she did not –so indeed I would have carried culpability and guilt for allowing her todo what certainly would have gotten her killed. I knew this–but why did I and the GMHS did not? And no I am not special, since Rick McKisey knew. But then every wild land fire fighter, smoke jumper, and investigator that goes to the place and looks down with an image of what those men faced by doing that is stymied as well.
So this historic tragedy demands solutions not excuses.
Closing that area off to hikers is also a blunder. It seems ever things the officials have done since day one of the Yarnell Hill fire on June 28, 2013 has been about 99% blunder. People that used to use that trail as their jogging trail (we talked to several locals who used that as a hiking area) are now cut off. Most importantly wild land fire fighters who wish to pay respects and as well see how those men were led to their deaths are restricted. Then the people who pay the taxes on these lands and have footed the bill all the way from paying money to loved ones, to buying the half section of land, then money for memorial and another 670 thousand for a parking place for a trail to no where are bilked and restricted from the very area they are paying for. This reeks of a design to hide the defects of a wild land fire fighting system that is responsible for the deaths of these 19–in this case something that was absolutely preventable.
Gary Olsen’s dream of Steed and Marsh with Steed saying you have killed us, and Marsh saying I know, I am sorry is so true to form. But sorry does not suffice in this case–Only answers and solutions will do here.
Charlie said: Still I would not trade that kind of growing up for any kind of other. What kid gets to hunt all day or work in a mine if he chooses. Fortunately we did not have an overbearing father
MY REPLY:what kid thinks like that Sonny? None I ever met even grandkids today look at your stories as strange as they have no comprehension who would love the life and day in a tent 24-7 all the time which their dad and you lived it-
Charlie said: People that used to use that trail as their jogging trail (we talked to several locals who used that as a hiking area) are now cut off.
MY REPLY: Just last night Snowbird Bill said he was even formally cut off by Maughans newer manager Don Glosglow-
Charlie said: The leaders that are today alive after the Yarnell Fire give us no solid information on why their men died.
MY REPLY: Even in recent wildfire academy training the YHF is to be brushed under a rug especially on their turf when it should be talked about and not denied such opportunities- that in itself is poor management training-
Charlie said: . But the murder thing was not a joke since I knew the danger and she did not
MY REPLY: Again, how many times do you have your perception but does not match the reality of that day and that heat and how many miles did we hike that week before 6-30-13 Sonny—it was no fireworks or me thinking unburned fuel—I felt at 12:38pm I had plenty of time to get to your car on Foothills- however you want to feel is your perception not shared by me.
Chralie said:This reeks of a design to hide the defects of a wild land fire fighting system that is responsible for the deaths of these 19–in this case something that was absolutely preventable.
MY REPLY: They still have a chance to change it- they should change it—aren’t these 19 lives plus so many more worth that—I think so—I think they deserve the changes.
I had a weird dream last night. I dreamed I heard Jesse Steed’s and Eric Marsh’s last radio communication. It went like this;
Steed to Marsh: “YOU KILLED US!”
Marsh to Steed: “I know…I’m sorry.”
Gary that one sent chills up my back. Whew, I think you are getting at the reality of that fatal day.
I had a short day today so I am getting caught up on my Facebook page (AKA…Our Fire Gods) because everyone needs to know what I am doing..
Wish You Were Here!
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
Damm I should have hooked up my Jeep to my Four Wheeler trailer and joined you.
Did you get Rain it rained and snowed here today. Have a good time I am sure you are.
Next time! God Willin’..
Oh…and one more thing. Why do they call the Red River the Colorado and the Verde River the Green?
Whoops.
We are supposed to get it tomorrow and they say to stay out of the canyons here when it rains, unless you have a death wish…which I don’t.
John said he lived on four acres next to Phil so these are the only possible parcels: Parcel 203-06-040 ESQUERRA RONALD LEE & GLORIA GEORGE JT 16366 W Norton Way 3.5 acres OR 203-06-009E 22036 S State Route 89 4.8 acres which is Phil’s place itself and we can assume Phil’s property being John said he got to his location by going through two gates so that fact would make it Phil’s gates into U-Stow It.
We met John at the Wittmann flea market–and talking with him we found he was also a Yarnellite. He told me he goes all over to different flea markets. John said he was here when the huge plume went up then collapsed on Yarnell. His trailer on Phil Snyder’s property was left behind for the evacuation. As he was leaving there were fire men foaming Phil Snyder’s Place so he spoke to them about his abode and trailer. He felt secure leaving but upon his return he found that they had not taken care of his property. Many items were missing and he was disturbed about that and confronted officials about the problem.
John told us he knows investigator incident commanders who he has conversed with about the fire. He tells me that the commander he knows says that murder charges should be brought against more than Marsh and his opinion was that some from the Yarnell fire fire department should have been imprisoned. As far as anyone getting any credit for a good job at Yarnell for their Yarnell Fire fighting efforts he said instead they ought to be investigated and some put up for criminal charges. To his way of thinking neither Marsh, Steed nor any of the ram rods should take the status of a hero.
Further he wanted to know where all the money went that Paul the Pastor and the Presbyterian Church Managed. He says many people gave him money which he gave to that organization, yet now he wishes he had not. He says he gave about ten thousand and there is a big question there as to where the money went. He also wonders why so many that lost their homes and had insurance are still not pay. It is a fact that many were unhappy with how the money that so many donated. The McCrackens had a friend donate ten grand to the group specifically given so they would have money for the building permit to replace their home. When they went to collect they were denied and told the money was instead put into the general fund. I wondered how they could deny those fine people when their friend gave with instructions that he wanted the money to go to the McCracken family. I wonder were they Presbyterians would they have gotten the money. Joy and I got wind of this early so when we did have funds given or items we instead went direct to people in need.
John was also angered about the Martial Law situation. He saw no reason for it and how individuals were treated during that time. It has disgusted him so much about all that went down that he now avoids Yarnell even though he keeps property here. His next destination for the summer is Colorado.
Good luck John. Many if not most of the locals understand your anger and frustration at how things were handled and continue to be handled. I do not know who the incident commander was that looked at this situation and felt criminal charges were in order–not accolades and hand clapping to BS. If he is reading this we hope he comes on to share his views and why.
Joy and I were out in the front yard today when a government black gmc drove very slow past the place and on their way out he rolled the window down and asked Joy something and she got up and we both went and spoke to the man and he said he lives by Leroy in Peeples Valley so that is by Quail/Buckhorn area and his family was there the day of the fire and he was showing his brother from Montana the aftermath of the homes in the area. It was a good conversation. The man offered for us to visit anytime over his place- we may just do that.
didd u go to the ariz wildfire academmy …. see wat Todd Abel did lasst week…./?
http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/mar/06/annual-arizona-wildfire-incident-management-academ/?
I can’t see much on what he said via cell but wait until Sonny tells you about what happened today on who he met that knows the higher ups. He lived in Yarnell next to UStow it and left 4am July 1 2013 because his gfriend wanted out but he knew a lot and saw a lot. John something..Mayer or Morris…let Sonny tell it..
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1107012155977615&id=100000065243934&set=a.159575274054646.38896.100000065243934&source=11&refid=17#
I have important question to me…my cell is capable of so much but the link above is that Todd Abel who was on yhf? I have seen him in person…it must of been the convention at Bucky’s where we met hundreds of firefighters…. Well if that is the case and it is him I was only a few feet away from when a retired Flagstaff higher up was talking to me and I remembered that talk very well…I wonder if was just a coincidence moment or set up now looking back but if he is cyfd than from day one I said cyfd could shed light on this fire and sun city fire dept but still no one yet posted on here but I stand firm after all who talked to us at that Bucky’s the topic laid on those folks…yet I don’t remember them in said..hmmm….odd
Darn talk to text…few errors…oh well…now I see why I was compared to Yoda same week by gary n my brother Paul
Not sure what Dale1 was referring to except Todd Able was in Charge of the Academy. Hopefully they teach the 10 and 18 and that it is not Hillbilly or no longer rules???????
Would also Add that our friend RTS was there as a Instructor all last week.
dale1,
And what did Todd Able allegedly do at the AZ Wildfire Academy last week?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
March 13, 2016 at 9:02 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> And what did Todd Able allegedly do at
>> the AZ Wildfire Academy last week?
I think that’s all dale1 was trying to point out.
Todd Abel ‘did’ the AZWA last week.
No subtext.
Todd Abel was, in fact, the “Incident Commander” for the 2016 AZWA thing.
The AZWA is really bad at updating their website(s).
The best information ( and pictures ) of what went on at last week’s AZWA are on their Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/Arizona-Wildfire-and-Incident-Management-Academy-113390165360151/
Many photos there of the usual things.
Newbies trying to figure out how to get under the green practice shelters, blindfolded newbies trying to work their way through that little concrete and gravel ‘maze’ they cooked up, stuff like that.
There’s also a photo of the entire 2016 AWIMA Incident Management Team.
You will see the usual suspects.
Todd Abel, Tony Sciacca… etc.
Here’s a direct link to that Facebook photo of all the ‘usual suspects’.
The entire 2016 AWIMA Incident Management Team.
https://www.facebook.com/113390165360151/photos/a.244354315597068.74367.113390165360151/1139474202751737/?type=3&theater
a speaker wass made to stop at wildfire academy..//…
Well Ill do it again and bite.
Where is this info coming from and what are you saying.
Did some one twist a tail by Bringing up the Yarnell hill fire?
Are you promoting a rumor or some fact?
Is this information on the internet or are you just referring to the Arizona wildfire Academy ?
You as usual leave a lot to the imagination .
Explain in 50 words or more some plausible information?
Not holding my breath————
I knew folks there and I never heard anyone was stopped? not even for paparazzi moments-
Thanks Bob Powers–Donut’s famous saying–“those rules are hill billy”. Seems like Donut convinced the whole crew that day.
Hillbilly rulres? You think McDonough pulled that out of his ass on his own? Not me. I bet it came from the same people who advised him to ask all of his Facebook friends to not talk to the media about him less that 24 hours after the burnover
I would put my bet on —- it came from who trained him.
Like a 100 to 1 odds.
good to see you calvin-
hope all is well with you
Thanks joy.
to officer who reads this area- https://youtu.be/SLTuvEegQkA 11:50 mark
was that one of them?
Interesting take from an ex hotshot and firefighter on YHF and the 19 men:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY2IqVAUIBo
did you notice what he began to speak about four minutes in…
than by six minute mark he blames the incident command area-
I was watching this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWjyZJF_Gzw
funny thing is I remembered that name as one of the firefighters like Cordes who got awards and Poster got his a few months after video above-
http://theketchumkeystone.org/2013/12/16/bowman-poster-named-firefighters-of-the-year/
at 5:33 on this video and learning this man’s perception of slopes and fire spread-
than I shake my head and wonder how come all nineteen knowing this- went into unburned fuel- there has to be more information to understand it.
I know Marcia McKee gets what I am saying here—-one or two firefighters—okay but 19??????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMGuiv2SYeg&list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 11, 2016 at 10:46 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> What I got from their YHF account is they left all their pets behind and
>> they all lived even the fish and exotic pets. They left when street was
>> ablazed and were one of the last ones out and the electric was out.
>> They went to Peoria Arizona and were allowed back in every couple
>> days to water and feed pets by authority escort. They did state when
>> they left is when all the fire folks and their equipment left so I asked if they
>> had any photos and they said only returning they took photos. They do live
>> near the Helms area-
>>
>> I wish I could ask more questions but the band had to get gear together-
>>
>> I can tell you it was very unfair how some folks were barred from even
>> entering during that no one allowed in Yarnell week July 2013 and some
>> were escorted and both had pets and one had meds to get- strange world.
Strange indeed… considering that a little know fact is that Insurance Companies ( specifically Liberty Mutual ) were sending in their own ‘structure protection’ teams during that entire time Yarnell and Glen Ilah and Peeples Valley were supposedly ‘off limits’ and no one was allowed in.
The ‘insurance companies’ just didn’t trust Arizona Forestry… and starting on July 1, 2013, they started sending in their OWN ‘Wildfire Response Teams’ to the Yarnell / Peeples Valley area do actual structural protection… even setting up their own ‘sprinkler’ systems for structure protection.
As early as the very day after the Yarnell tragedy ( on July 1, 2013 ), the Liberty Mutual Insurance company sent a number of their own ‘Widfire Resource Teams’ into the Peeples Valley area in order to do their OWN ‘Structure Protection’ for homes protected by Liberty Mutual.
These ‘Wildfire Resource Teams’ were entering/exiting the Yarnell Hill fire area for WEEKS following the tragedy… doing what they do ( protecting structures ).
In addition… these Liberty Mutual insurance company ‘teams’ became one of the only way for residents of Peeples Valley to know whether their houses had been lost, or not.
The residents of Peeples Valley were not hearing jack shit from Arizona Forestry, but the people at Liberty Mutual were in direct contact with their own ‘Wildfire Resource Teams’ that were there on the ground in Peeples Valley… and the Insurance company itself was taking phone calls and ‘addresses’ from people and then getting their own teams to check on those addresses and report back about them.
The insurance company ‘teams’ were even able to take ‘pictures’ of these addresses and Liberty Mutual was making sure they got back to the residents who were calling them.
These ‘Yarnell’ stories are coming from someone who calls herself the “Backyard Chicken Lady”.
She and her husband live in Peeples Valley and she raises prize chickens… and it was only because of the kind people at Liberty Mutual Insurance company that she and her husband were able to find out whether they had lost their home in Peeples Valley…
http://backyardchickenlady.blogspot.com/2013/07/update-on-yarnell-hill-fire-fire.html
From her BLOG…
———————————————————————————-
BLOG post: July 3, 2013.
UPDATE ON YARNELL HILL FIRE – Fire Perimeter Update
( PHOTO of a MAP showing Yarnell Fire Perimeter as of July 3, 2013 )
Yesterday the map showed that most of Peeples Valley proper was within the perimeter of the active fire area. Why the difference today? Because the Esri’s maps update whenever the centralized source (the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) called GeoMAC) updates their database. The USGS uses thermal imaging (among other methods) to detect what areas are within the fires perimeters…this is not 100% accurate, but very close. So it looks like last night they were able to get new information and therefore changed the perimeter.
I also called Liberty Mutual Insurance again this morning to get an update from the Wildfire Resource Team on the ground in Peeples Valley. She told me that according to their report, the fire had not burned our house or the neighboring houses. It was close by our community and they did need to do some protective measures (including setting up sprinklers on the roof as a last effort to protect a house) for some houses in Peeples Valley but they could not tell me specifically which ones, so I assume those must have been houses on the outskirts of the primary housing area, such as those further up in the hills to the West and South of Peeples Valley proper. The person I spoke to said she was looking at a picture of my house from last nights 8:40pm report and it was fine…she identified several vehicles in front of my house so I know it was actually mine. She said I could call back later this afternoon for further updates.
I want to again thank Paul for keeping me posted of the mapping updates, the wonderful people at Liberty Mutual Insurance, the Wildfire Resource Team for the on-the-ground updates, and to all the wonderful people who are Praying for our community and the fallen firefighters and their families. The out pour of generosity has been so comforting. THANK YOU!!!
———————————————————————————-
Some additional BLOG posts from the “Backyard Chicken Lady”.
This is the one where she explains who she and her husband are… and she details their own harrowing ‘escape’ from Peeples Valley on Sunday, June 30, 2013..
She even had already heard her own ‘rumor’ that on Friday night, Arizona Bureau of Land Management ( BLM ) were the ones that thought the initial lightning strike would just ‘burn itself out’ and that’s whey they did nothing on Friday.
Russ Shumate was the Arizona Forestry ‘duty officer’ on Friday who turned into the ICT4 for the Yarnell Hill Fire… and it was basically HIS decision to ‘do nothing’ on the Friday when the fire started… but it is a fact that he was also ‘consulting’ with BLM that Friday.
http://backyardchickenlady.blogspot.com/2013/07/yarnell-hills-fire-continues-to-burn-as.html
————————————————————————–
My husband and I live in Peeples Valley, AZ where the Yarnell Hill Fire is burning out of control. The fire started on Friday and it is believed that it started by lightening during our first monsoon storm of the season. The area where it started is high in the mountains between the small towns of Yarnell and Peeples Valley. The rough terrain is covered with chaparral pines, scrub oak, and manzenita’s and it is all very dry…the perfect fire-storm just waiting to happen.
From what I understand (from a reliable source) the BLM thought the small fire in the mountains would burn itself out so they sent home some of the fire crew. Saturday mid-morning we saw the smoke from the fire. It appeared to be a few mountains over and looked pretty small at that time. But within just a few hours the wind kicked up and so did the fire. We watched the fire growing in size and intensity from our front porch in Peeples Valley. Saturday night it was obvious that the fire was rapidly approaching our community. We were afraid to go to sleep that night for fear that the Sheriff’s office would be evacuating our town while we were asleep. We don’t have a home phone so we would not receive a reverse 911 call (which is the standard practice), so I left our bedroom window open a little so we would at least hear sirens if they were going door-to-door during the night. We had a restless nights sleep that night, but no evacuation came.
( Snip )
Now that we had all of our pets and grandkids in the trucks we took off. This was so scary because as we were driving out the only exit road from our community the fire was so close to us. If it continued to burn much longer it might close off our only way of getting out. About 15 minutes after we left Peeples Valley the wind shifted with the monsoon storm coming in from the north. This southern wind was very strong, it almost blew me over when I was pulled over to check on the chickens in the back of the pick-up. This change in direction of the winds is what pushed the fire back towards the town of Yarnell. The winds were so strong that they moved the fire so fast that the fire crews were not able to do anything to stop it.
The fire quickly burned into Yarnell and trapped the 19 Hotshot crew members, and burning on into the town of Yarnell, burning a large number of homes. I learned about the change in direction causing the death of the 19 young men from my daughter who was at home in Prescott Valley watching the news. She called me on my cell. I almost could not believe what I was hearing. My heart felt so heavy, I began to cry for the loss of these young lives. I have not been able to stop the tears every time think about them. They gave their lives to save us and our homes. It is so unfair…their lives were not a fair trade for our homes. Homes can be rebuilt, but their families will forever be without them.
————————————————————————–
NOTE: There is also a VIDEO of the Yarnell Hill Fire that she took embedded in the BLOG post above. It’s actually that video with the ‘flag waving’ in the foreground which has been seen before. It shows the fire at the moment it was still moving north towards Peeples Valley and pretty much the moment when it was consuming the ‘Double Bar-A’ ranch that Darrell Willis had been trying to protect. even though he had said the night before such an effort would be useless.
This is the BLOG post from “Backyard Chicken Lady” where she details how she was getting NO INFORMATION from Arizona Forestry… and it was only when she called Liberty Mutual Insurance that she was able to get any information at all.
It also mentions how these special “Wildfire Response Teams” were there protecting structures all day… but had to “leave the area” each day at sunset and then had to be ‘allowed back in’ each day following the fire.
These ‘Widlfire Response Teams’ also ( apparently ) had their OWN ‘Retardant’ and/or ‘Foam’ that they were using to protect structures.
http://backyardchickenlady.blogspot.com/2013/07/finally-we-get-some-news-about-yarnell.html
—————————————————————————–
BLOG POST – July 2, 2013
BLOG TITLE: Finally we get some news about the Yarnell Hills Fire… From some unlikely sources
Finally we get some answers about the status of the fire burning in our community. And the answers didn’t come from the Fire agencies or the news media covering this fire.
Today Paul Doherty, PhD, Public Safety Technology Specialist, who works for Esri, a software company that supports most government agencies with geographic information systems (GIS), shared an interactive map of the Yarnell Hills Fire on Twitter. Here is the map:
( MAP of the Yarnell Fire perimeter as of July 2, 2013 )
Immediately I could see that my community, Peeples Valley, was within the fires perimeters. When I zoomed in I could see my street, and then my home, all within the perimeter. Paul explained that the map shows the perimeter of the fire, but there could be areas within that perimeter that did not burn. So even though most of my neighborhood was within the perimeter, it is still possible that our home did not burn yet. While I was relieved to finally have some information, I still didn’t know if my home was still standing or not. I tried to call the different fire agencies working this fire to verify that it was now burning in Peeples Valley and to see if they had lost any homes yet. But I could not get an answer from anyone. Even the press conference held this afternoon didn’t shed any light on the situation for us evacuees waiting and wondering if we have a home to go home to. They just wouldn’t tell us anything.
Then I remember that my home insurance company, Liberty Mutual, had called us Monday morning to tell us about a free service that our insurance provides called the ‘Wildfire Prevention Program’, where they send in a Wildlife Resource Team (WRT) into the evacuated area to proactively work to protect our home by applying a flame retardant material to the wood surfaces of our house, clear any flammables from around our house, including clearing the land of flammable brush, and they will even set up sprinklers on the roof to protect it from catching fire from flying embers. And this service does not cost us one penny!
Knowing they were going in to the area to do this for all homeowners who had Liberty Mutual Insurance, I thought, why not call them to see if they knew if the team had done any protective measures to our house yet. When I called I spoke to a very nice lady who seemed to be really concerned for my feelings and my situation. She said, “I think I can do even better then that, hold on a moment.” She put me on hold for maybe a couple of minutes, then returned to say she had just check the status of the WRT working in our community. According to their last update at approximately noon today, the fire was reported to be very close to our home, but our home had not burned as of that time.” She said the team has to leave the area each evening when it gets dark, and at that time they would be submitting a new update for the day. So she told me to call back in the morning and they would tell me what they new.
Is that Awesome or what?! I was treated so nice and they were so helpful when I could not get any information from any local agencies. Now I have a little peace of mind knowing that as of noon today my home is still standing, even though there is fire burning through our neighborhood. We have shared this information with our friends and neighbors in our neighborhood as best we can.
I want to send a special “Thank You” to Paul Doherty and to the folks at Liberty Mutual Insurance company. One thing is for sure…if our house is still standing after this fire has burned out, because of the efforts of Wildfire Resource Team, then we will be switching All of our insurance policies to Liberty Mutual Insurance…because they certainly earned it with their proactive approach to taking care of their insureds.
—————————————————————————–
Most Engines carry foam liquid that can be mixed with water for Structures. It is a mix with a special nozzle.
They did a lot of that in Yellowstone in 1984 to protect historic structures and Park buildings.
Yes, Helicopter Pilot Phil of the U Stow it got that foam work on his home during the fire. I don’t know who else they did that for–but John who was staying nearby asked them to do his trailer home as well. He said they neglected him. But then behind Phil’s home and U Stow it was a huge load of fire retardant dumped off the Jumbo Jet and with the wind going parallel to that dumped load it did suffice to hold the fire from advancing down to a few homes on the north end of Yarnell. Included was Maughan Ranch Store but that is on the East side of 89, U stow it is on the west side and a bit closer to town. In the high winds you can bet even that jumbo jet string of fire retardant would not have stopped that fire. We were getting embers on our vehicle some quarter mile from the fire as we were leaving Yarnell down the hill.
**
** USFS – Technology and Development Program.
**
** STORIES ABOUT TROUBLESOME FFS AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT THEM
When I was searching below for the source of those ‘rules’ that are printed on the official “What it takes to be a Hotshot” list on that Sandwich Board at the official Yarnell ‘Town’ Memorial to the GM Hotshots ( the ‘list’ which starts with “1. Hotshots must strictly obey orders” )… I stumbled across this other interesting link I hadn’t seen before.
On the US Forestry Service’s “Technology and Development” website, they have lots of what they deem to call “Training materials” and “Publications” to be used by people doing “training” for USFS.
One list of publications actually includes about every ‘fuck up’ scenario you can imagine… and some actual ‘real stories’ about what trainers are supposed to take away from those incidents and what they are supposed to “tell” the people they are training.
Believe it or not… some of the ‘stories’ are being told in order to give training managers and idea of how to actually convince FFs to do things you want them to do… even when they are protesting… such as is covered in their “Questioning Tactics” section.
USDA – United States Department of Agriculture
USFS – United States Forest Service
TD – Technology and Development Program
Firefighter Cohesion and Entrapment Avoidance Facilitator’s Notes
Publications
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm09512807/page08.htm
Table of Contents
————————————————————————————-
Short Overview of Each Story
A brief synopsis of each story is included to help facilitators consider the stories they may want to use during their training.
Problem 1: Firefighters Not Getting Along
Story 1: Out To Compete With Everybody
This story from a hotshot superintendent discusses how he resolved a problem caused by a hotshot crew that was trying to show everybody else up.
Story 2: The Excitement Is Gone
In this story, a crew boss discusses two crewmembers who were complaining because they were bored while mopping up. The leader saw these two firefighters causing a cohesion problem.
Story 3: He Didn’t Get To Be Crew Boss
This story is from a crew boss trainee who faced a cohesion problem caused by a jealous squad boss.
Problem 2: Working With Unfamiliar Resources
Story 1: Grab People Off Districts
In this story, a crew boss discusses when he put together a type II crew and built cohesion among firefighters who came from different districts.
Story 2: Resources I Hadn’t Worked With Before
In this story, a strike team leader discusses how he built cohesion when he was assigned several engines he had never worked with before.
Story 3: Crew Straggling In
In this story, the incident commander of a type 4 fire discusses when he called for an additional crew to help fight the fire. He had to tie these new firefighters into an existing crew.
Story 4: They Welcomed Us In
In this story, a contract crew leader talks about not being given a chance to build cohesion with federal firefighters. He explains how a smokejumper in charge brought a federal crew and a contract crew together.
Problem 3: The Fire Gets Hot and Firefighters Get Nervous
Story 1: The Fire Was Really Picking Up
In this story, a crew boss discusses how he kept his crew cohesive when the fire picked up.
Story 2: We Had People in a Panic
In this story, a helibase manager discusses moving a large number of firefighters and equipment quickly and cohesively from a helispot that was threatened with a burnover.
Story 3: We Have Spots All Over the Place
In this story, a squad boss describes how he kept his squad together when a fire blew up.
Problem 4: Can’t Trust Other Firefighters
Story 1: This Person Was Dangerous
In this story, a hotshot superintendent discusses a person on his crew he couldn’t trust. The firefighter was too aggressive and didn’t follow orders—posing a danger both to himself and to the crew.
Story 2: We Have Spot Fires Behind Us
In this story, a hotshot superintendent discusses his distrust of another crew because they weren’t watching his crew’s back.
Problem 5: Resources Out of the Loop
Story 1: They Felt Isolated
In this story, a federal firefighter describes when he had to integrate a group of structural firefighters into the larger firefighting operation after they found themselves out of the loop.
Story 2: He Was Freelancing
In this story, a division supervisor discusses how she responded when a dozer operator was out of the loop and the fire was picking up.
Problem 6: Questioning Tactics
Story 1: We’re Not Going
This story from a strike team leader discusses three type II crews who were working for her on a fire. One of the crew bosses refused to send his crew into an area he thought was dangerous and the strike team leader had to build cohesion with the crew boss.
Story 2: Should We Be Here?
In this story, a dozer boss discusses building cohesion with a dozer operator after the operator questioned whether it was safe to engage the fire.
Problem 7: Lacking Local Knowledge
Story 1: Out of Their Element
In this story, a leader discusses building cohesion with a hotshot crew that didn’t have experience with range fires.
Story 2: You’re on People’s Turf
In this story, a leader who was assigned to be an IC in a part of the country where he didn’t have experience explains how he integrated himself into the local resources to create cohesion.
Problem 8: Home Unit Loyalties and Cliques
Story 1: Best Friends
In this story, a crew boss discusses dealing with three best friends on his crew who were troublemakers causing cohesion problems.
Story 2: We Needed To Bring Them Together
In this story, a crew boss trainee discusses how he built a cohesive crew from several district crews that had their own leaders and unit loyalties.
————————————————————————————-
http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/e/e046.htm
http://deniseroggio.com/walt-eckes/
I heard this couple’s account from the YHF tonight-
they are in the Glen Ilah subdivision near Sonny.
He was setting up at the Yarnell Diner to play his guitar-
What I got from their YHF account is they left all their pets behind and they all lived even the fish and exotic pets. They left when street was ablazed and were one of the last ones out and the electric was out. They went to Peoria Arizona and were allowed back in every couple days to water and feed pets by authority escort. They did state when they left is when all the fire folks and their equipment left so I asked if they had any photos and they said only returning they took photos. They do live near the Helms area-
I wish I could ask more questions but the band had to get gear together-
I can tell you it was very unfair how some folks were barred from even entering during that no one allowed in Yarnell week July 2013 and some were escorted and both had pets and one had meds to get- strange world.
Joy,
Thank you for the information on your amazing neighbors in Glen Ilah.
For those that didn’t follow your links:
Mr. Walter Eckes: New Yorker, Marine, artist, musician, animal lover, POW escapee.
“Walt Eckes was born in 1946 in New York City, New York. He enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps on February 12, 1964, and after completing basic training he was trained as a radio operator. His first assignment was with the 1st Battalion, 8th Marines of the 2nd Marine Division at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, from July 1964 to November 1965, during which time he participated in the Invasion of the Dominican Republic in May and June 1965. Pvt Eckes deployed to Southeast Asia and was assigned to Headquarters Battery, 2nd Battalion, 12th Marines of the 3rd Marine Division in South Vietnam in November 1965, and transferred to F Battery in March 1966. He was captured by the Viet Cong in South Vietnam on May 10, 1966, and managed to escape from his captors on June 17, 1966. LCPL Eckes made it back to friendly lines on June 20, 1966, and was transferred to Headquarters Battalion of the 3rd Marine Division later that month to finish out his tour. He returned to the U.S. in December 1966, and then served with D Battery, 2nd Battalion, 10th Marines of the 2nd Marine Division at Camp Lejeune from January to March 1967, followed by service with Company A, 1st Battalion, 6th Marines of the 2nd Marine Division at Camp Lejeune from March to September 1967. CPL Eckes then returned to D Battery, 2nd Battalion, 10th Marines from September 1967 to January 1968. His final assignment was with F Battery, 2nd Battalion, 10th Marines from January 1968 until he left active duty on February 9, 1968. CPL Eckes received an honorable discharge from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve on February 11, 1970.”
Gary told us law enforcement are trained to win and he is correct. There is another group in our country that is also trained to win and I believe is on another level commitment wise than law enforcement: the United States Military! Of this group of trained winners and survivors, the United States Marine Corps take this commitment to an even higher level. That’s why, as my old Army buddy used to tell me, ‘even a Marine cook thinks he’s a badass’ …because they are. Every Marine is a trained survivor. Semper Fi and God bless the Marine Corps!
How tough and committed are Marines? Are they trained to win? You tell me:
“They were on the trail
for 3-4 days, and the prisoners were in bad shape. Eckes lost his toenails
due to a combination the effects of poor health and exposure, having been
required to wear “Ho Chi Minh” sandals. The left side of his face was badly
infected from insect bites, and his weight had dropped to 98 pounds.
At dinner that night, Eckes made a decision. He had endured all he felt he
could, and planned to make a break, but didn’t know what to do. He and
Dodson discussed it, and both agreed they had to escape if they were to
survive.
Eckes and Dodson were traveling with about 18 Viet Cong and three of them
stayed with the prisoners during their rice meal that evening. The guards
also started to eat, and for the first time during the trip, all three
guards propped their weapons on a tree about 20 feet away. Eckes and Dodson
seemed compliant, and the guards felt confident. The other fifteen guards
were some distance away eating.
After the meal, Eckes and Dodson had to wash out their canteen cups in a
stream directly behind the Viet Cong. When they stood up, the guards
believed they were going to wash their cups, but instead, the POWs took the
rifles, grabbed a few supplies and took off through the jungle. It was June
17.
For the next several days, Eckes and Dodson were chased through the jungle,
and eventually made their way to a PF post just outside An Hoa (about 25
miles southwest of Da Nang), where a Marine base was located. The two were
brought in by ambulance to An Hoa, on June 20 and then flown to Da Nang
where medical needs were seen to and they were debriefed.”
THAT’S how committed and trained to win U.S. Marines are. They don’t have permission to die!
Right here I’m having a personal conflict. We had former Marines on the Granite Mountain crew that were also trained to win. One was directly in command of the crew the day they all died. What happened after entering service in wildland firefighting that changed this commitment to survival – or did it change? If Gary is correct it means we have taken a man (Steed), who has been trained at the highest level possible to win, put him the wildland firefighting profession who trains to lose and he lost. OR – something else happened that overcame this focus on winning/survival.
Are we ‘trained to lose’ in the wildland service as Gary suggested? Are we trained to crawl into death bags and die or should we run………..
I know one thing: I’m not laying down in a damn shelter while I wait for the fire to arrive……I’m dropping shit and hauling ass. I’m training to win every time. I have survived mine and will continue to do until retirement. Then I’m going fishing in Alaska.
Thanks for the information, Joy.
Thank you, Mr. Eckes for your service. God bless you and Semper Fi!!!!!!!
Woodsman
Woodsman–and thank you for your service along with all front line wild land fire fighters. I consider you all heroes like Mr. Eckes. like all the Marines and others who served. His capture and escape a very close call and sadly too many died during that Vietnam thing. Mr. Eckes we met at the Family Diner– a real gentleman to add to his service status.
We did have a martial law lock down at Yarnell. It was totally not needed since we had plenty of Yavapai Sheriff people to take care of the situation. The powers that be forget that we have lots of people here of old school mentality that take care of their own and their neighbors. We are not cookie cutter types that have to depend upon law enforcement for every little whim such as lately I had California neighbors that had to call law enforcement when my three chickens were on the loose without leashes or telling me along with the other 26 other neighbors they gave reports to county officials because something did not fit their idea of how people ought to live. Instead they forget that Joy and I helped those very people right after the fire and she is one to go there to any neighbor and do free clean up or repairs if that neighbor needs it. We have too many elderly here that due to their age are incapable of doing things and many on low income so they often can not afford to be turned into the county for the big fines they receive for petty offenses. I suppose I was a bit upset seeing the Sheriff dog catcher cruising the neighborhood right past our property which is at the extreme West end of Glen Isla. Here the dog catcher is a deputy Sheriff and who ever thought the Sheriff department would be part of the dog catcher world? And Glen Isla having to be patrolled in this extreme rural setting? Good Lord what has this world come to–people that act like Communist Russia–going around turning their neighbors in for any little offense so that people becoming fearful of each other.
So they know since they read this site–I have paid my $90 permit for my cattle fence being constructed around our property and I can bet they never paid theirs–but I won’t waste my time turning them in if they did not. I have better things to do than worry about other people’s petty offenses.
If anything ought to be investigated it is the squandering of $670,000 dollars of tax payer money on a parking lot to no where and why that money instead is not going to the wild land fire fighting community. Where are the good FBI agents that should be looking into the graft we see as well as the causes of the deaths of the 19?
There will be a book signing in May for Donut and Phoenix NY Times editor Fernanda Santos. This will be in the Yarnell Library so many of you will want to meet Donut and Fernanda. She is quite a hiker and we were happy to make the run with her. She has interviewed many of the people involved and ought to have a good book on the situation. There is much more to be revealed, maybe she will have enough for a follow up book.
Charlie said: to call law enforcement when my three chickens were on the loose without leashes
MY REPLY: misinformation you posted. It was County not law enforcement Sonny on your chickens which was legal and that was a bum complaint on you. You are combining the Animal Control with County visit. Animal Control comes when someone complains Sonny and you already know who complained on someone on Candy Cane Lane. Now, you are allowed 8 poultry per acre. That is the law. You are allowed to have them free range- they just encourage you to keep them in on your property and they would be but there was the delay in getting you the permits to finish your cattle fence. It is always better in today’s world to just follow the order…and it parallels to the YHF and these men’s decisions to remain where they were versus keep walking to the less terrain/boulder areas versus where they were but I really think misinformation played as well with the men and how they got to that point. Man with grey rimmed glasses who had a dispatcher speak for him may help bring clarity and maybe one day that person will finally not get the proper sleep at night because I do not know how one does sleep properly with the knowledge the missing elements have…
Charlie said: There will be a book signing in May for Donut and Phoenix NY Times editor Fernanda Santos. This will be in the Yarnell Library so many of you will want to meet Donut and Fernanda.
MY REPLY: another misinformation. Where did you hear Donut was doing this? I know Fernanda Santos is with Arizona Highways Kathy Montgomery at the Yarnell library and that is the plan but never was Donut mentioned— just that his book is due out same time.
I thought I got the info from you –misunderstood you said he has a report coming out the same day but not at the Library. It is a challenge with 17% hearing left–seems I mishear things at times. We will look forward to the report and the book signing.
Woodsman—Human Factors
Military are trained also to Obey orders with out question.
Could that have been a factor in Steeds decision to leave the BLACK?
There is some concern with this military influence overshadowing the rules and causing some Safety breeches.
I have no personal feeling one way or the other. The WWII and Vietnam Vets I worked with never showed that side in fire fighting so the above is new to me.
May be it should be addressed in training?
Bob,
You said: “Military are trained also to Obey orders with out question.”
I believe this is not true. E1/recruits yes, but as soon as you move up in rank you are given more responsibility & ‘flexibility’ to accomplish the mission. (I’m talking after the 1st year or so.) The idea that superiors are never questioned or challenged by subordinates in the military is false.
I’m saying this from the perspective of a dependent of a career officer, attended military school, friends that served, veterans who work or have worked in our agency, and my #1 mentor of all time (RIP, sir) a Vietnam vet who I worked under on wildfires for 10 plus years.
In the service there is a concept known as ‘the standard.’ Veterans have done well in the fire service because the idea of policies and procedures is not new. (besides just being great folks) Deviate from the policy or procedure or not meet the standard and there is a problem. I’m not ready to say Steed’s service was a causal factor like I was believing a couple of months ago. In fact, I think that hypothesis is wrong! (I can hear RTS’ footsteps approaching the screen now.) Yep, RTS, it’s wrong!
Steed felt pressure from 1 or more people to move the crew. Marsh was a ‘my way or the highway’ kind of guy – am I correct? Didn’t he run off a DIVS (Esquibel?) after arguing about division breaks? The pressure Steed felt by reporting to his direct boss and career advancement possibilities has way more to do than the assumption that military veterans are just sheep that will do anything you order them to.
Steed knew the rules. He was MORE suited for the job because of his military experience – discipline, the standard, rules, policies, and procedures. He was trained to win by the best military in the world. He served our country and was provided with the best equipment and leadership we could muster. He then joined the wildfire profession AND WE FAILED HIM.
The wildfire community failed him and others at Yarnell Hill. We don’t train our forces to win. Deployment zones, safety zones, fire shelter….LCES is all wrong. At least the E and the S are wrong. It’s not acceptable to deploy a fire shelter. It’s not a ‘badge of honor.’ It’s an indication of extreme organizational failure and by issue en mass of these devices, the wildfire leadership is complicit in the failure. We have designed concepts and training that are wrong!
Woodsman
I’ll gladly take a beatdown from anyone who says I’m wrong about veterans & obeying orders. I’ll also thank you for your service. All you have to do when straightening me out is provide your branch, mos, rating, nec, or afsc.
If you don’t know what this is then you’re most likely not qualified to opine on this matter.
Woodsman
All good points. I was referring to some Things that are being referred to lately as human factors as I said I never ran into that in my carrier.
The human factors people like to screw with things in their analogy’s of what people think.
Was never in the Military so you can beat on me all you want.
Started as a FF at 17 and never quit. Missed the draft and never volunteered for service.
That would have been Vietnam—
I was also classified 111A at 19 Married W/1 Child.
Reply to Woodsman post on March 12, 2016 at 11:33 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> The idea that superiors are never questioned or challenged
>> by subordinates in the military is false.
That’s correct… but keyword here is ‘idea’.
When you are conducting yourself as PSUEDO-MILITARY organization… then it isn’t the ‘reality’ you play to… it’s the ‘idea’ of what you ‘think’ the ‘reality’ is.
So more often than not… PSUEDO-MILITARY organizations are most likely to play the “an order is an order… do what I tell you” game than the actual military itself.
Here’s a poem written by the father of a USFS Hotshot and published by the Prescott eNews organization… so here is what even HE thinks his OWN SON is SUPPOSED to be doing ‘out there’…
“Hotshots Follow Orders”…
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/item/21947-granite-mountain-hotshots-the-men-of-yarnell-hill
——————————————————-
Hotshots follow orders, the twenty of this crew,
They cut the trees, they dug the line, as they were told to do.
They left behind their families, lovers, friends, and wives,
They paid a price so costly, they paid it with their lives.
————————————————————
By Scott K. Helfinstine of Prescott, AZ,
father of a Hotshot serving with the USFS
————————————————————
On September 29, 2013 at 6:52 pm, Tex Gilligan posted the following comment over at Wildfire Today…
————————————————
Today I visited the memorial put up near the Ranch Club Restaurant.
I took time at the memorial to read what it takes to be a hot shot.
They started out with “A Hot Shot must strictly obey orders.”
For instance, in this case, although it had to be apparant to some of those men that they were absolutely headed to a very higly dangerous area, they were obliged to do that.
Most were of a younger age, so I could see that they might blindly follow orders.
I look back when I was a miner at the Ward Mine back in the 70’s I had quit that mine after watching 12×12 timbers mushroom on their tops. The mine foreman took us in past these and said no worry, more would be put in and it was a safe situation. Well 6 other miners agreed, but I instead picked up my check. A week or so later I heard the mine caved at that point. Six men and old Bill were caught in there and barely found a way back out through an air shaft and crawling 600 yards.
Just to say, I likely would not make a good Hot Shot.
——————————————————————
NOTE: That ‘Sandwich Board’ that has the “What it takes to be a Hotshot” rules on it, with the number one ‘rule’ being “A Hot Shot must strictly obey orders” was eventually moved from where it started out near the Ranch House Restaurant… and it is now a part of the permanent ‘Yarnell’ memorial to Granite Mountain there were Shrine Road intersects with Highway 89.
But it is, in fact, still there, and STILL says the number one thing a Hotshot must do is “Strictly Obey Orders”.
This is even what the PUBLIC is being expected to believe even when visiting an actual memorial to those men who died those horrible deaths on June 30, 2013.
On April 17, 2015 at 11:46 am, in Chapter 13 of this ongoing
discussion… Sonny (Tex) Gilligan also said…
——————————————————–
We witnessed a wildfire that no amount of ground pounders could have stopped, yet neither Donut nor those men seemed to sense the danger they were in. Maybe the site was too much like the fireworks you see in big cities–mesmerizing. Add the heat of the day and stress of exhaustion and Dr. Ted Putnam’s expressions of the psychological factors in firefighting come to light. It certainly stands to reason that had those men been of sober thinking that day, no amount of cajoling or strict adherence to the wild fire sign that says to be a hot shot you must “strictly obey orders” have caused them to go down there.
Strictly Obey Orders meant to disobey all safety rules in this case and caused their deaths. Who gave those strict orders remains in question at this time, yet Sonny here believes that Marsh and Steed were lower men on the chain of command.
——————————————————–
“Robert the Second” ( RTS ) had this to say in a comment below the article that appeared at InvestigativeMEDIA about the autopsy reports…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/after-years-of-delay-the-granite-mountain-hotshot-autopsy-records-are-released-to-the-public/#comment-319270
>> On December 13, 2015 at 9:26 pm,
>> Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> We ( Hotshots ) are TOLD to follow orders…
>> UNLESS they are illegal, immoral, unethical,
>> or UNSAFE. The order(s) we’re clearly NOT safe
>> and Steed knew the order was NOT safe or sound.
>> Instead of directly telling Marsh that, he used
>> what’s known as ‘Mitigating Speech’ or hinting when
>> he kept telling him “were in the black,” and describing
>> the fire activity and the location of the fire
>> in the McKenzie video clip.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Steed felt pressure from 1 or more people to move the crew.
Yes… but the reality is that we still have no idea what really went down out there that day. Steed could have been getting ‘pressure’ from BOTH ‘above’ and ‘below’.
In other words… maybe even the GM Squad Bosses ( or crew members ) were ALSO pressuring Jesse to ‘make the move’.
I believe Brendan McDonough and those 3 other Blue Ridge Hotshots who were also listening to the GM ‘intra-crew’ radio frequency heard much more that we are still aware of… but I don’t know if even that would give us the ‘complete’ picture of the ACTUAL decision making process out there.
The GM Squad bosses and/or crew could have even been saying ( to Steed )… “Aw c’mon Jesse… let’s go for it!”… and Steed could have very well said to THEM “Okay… fuck it… you guys wanna go… let’s go.”.
So they did.
They basically “Esse Quam Videried” themselves right into their graves.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Marsh was a ‘my way or the highway’ kind of guy – am I correct?
Yes. Very much so. Just read his personnel file.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Didn’t he run off a DIVS (Esquibel?) after arguing
>> about division breaks?
Yes… but minor correction. It wasn’t Esquibel. Esquibel was just a TLFD(t) under SPGS1 Gary Cordes and the one who Cordes would later tell to send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure GM got “out of there safely”… because Gary Cordes KNEW that is where they were going.
It was “Division Z” Rance Marquez who got into that ‘argument’ with Eric Marsh about where the break between “Division A” and “Division Z” should be.
Apparently… Eric Marsh got so “in his face” about it that he felt compelled to call OPS1 Todd Abel provately, using his cellphone, and tell OPS1 all about it BEFORE Marquez got a chance to arrive back north in Peeples Valley and tell his side of the story.
There is ‘evidence’ that Eric Marsh was pretty much ‘arguing’ with everyone he came into contact with that fatal day alone… from the argument with Rory Collins about where to drop retardant, to the ‘argument’ with Marquez about where a simple DIVS boundary should be… and on to the eventual (fatal) ‘argument’ with Steed about moving GM out of the black.
Again… just read his personnel file and the things his managers were telling him he always needed to work on, personally and socially.
Nothing pissed Eric Marsh off more than when things weren’t going the way HE wanted them to.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The pressure Steed felt by reporting to his direct boss
>> and career advancement possibilities has way more to
>> do than the assumption that military veterans are just
>> sheep that will do anything you order them to.
Agree.
It is not correct to just sit back and say… “Well… since we don’t know all the details of what happened… then how can we do any review of policy and procedures and make any changes?”
That’s horseshit. ( Is anyone from AZF and/or USFS listening? ).
19 men died horrible deaths.
The RESPONSIBLE thing to have done ( and which can STILL be done ) is to look at ALL of the ‘possible’ reasons it happened and do a complete training review in ALL the ‘possible’ areas to make sure it never happens that way again.
I believe all the details are known and even the real reasons those men were sacrificed through negligent actions that Steed knew would endanger their lives. He hoped to make it out OK, but despite his objections his subconscious training to strictly obey orders led him to chance the lives of his men. Of Course, his orders came from above from Mr. Marsh who for whatever reason was also willing to risk his crew’s lives. He had orders from some superior or more than one to get down there to protect structures. He had to have known there was a risk but he had to believe they would make it despite breaking all rules and against common sense. It is obvious he did not have a feel for the danger of getting caught in dense manzanita that any cowboy or hiker of this area understands. I think he must have thought those roaster blankets were a better alternative to locating people among the boulders even though he had passed the fire edge multiple times in the boulder area where vegetation was more dense than the boulder area his men could have resorted to on either side of that canyon and much more quickly than they could chain saw out brush and deploy. I believe that is one reason these fire gods want the area restricted, since once you are in the canyon you can see huge barren areas of boulders on the South rim near where they perished and on the North rim as well.
I have mentioned more than once that Joy and I saw video of men at the shrine using drip torches along the left side of that dirt road above the Shrine at a time the wind was fierce. I have no reason to lie about that since Joy and I saw the low rock wall and knew we had hiked past that wall more than once. We wondered if it were a Peeples Valley video so we even went back to refresh our memory of that wall to be sure it was the one above the Shrine. Joy even remembers when we saw the video and at that time we did not realize the significance of the back burn being done there. Norb believes he also saw the video. We have tried to find it again but to no avail. A back burn there with winds to the SW would have paralleled Glen Isla and prerhaps saved Glen Isla except that the wind must have changed enough to drive the fire directly into Glen Isla. Perhaps someone can figure out how to find it–can UTube delete videos and where do they go?
The decisions made by the superiors on this fire killed the men less knowledgeable about safety and how wild fires react. Their heroic efforts to try to defend a hamlet does not override the facts that all safety rules were that day considered “hill billy”. WTKTT is right==there is still time to tell the story straight=one that people on this site pretty much have determined. That is what will help change the way these wild fires are managed and fought As well as the was bosses are willing to risk lives despite the conditions we saw at Yarnell.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the info.
So the “must always obey orders” comes from the wildfire service and not the military. In other words, if one were to place the ‘blame’ for strictly obeying orders on a wff because of his military service, they would be wrong. That concept of ‘strictly obeying orders’ comes from the hotshot culture itself. It may be incorrectly blamed on the effects of prior military service because of the perception that is how it’s done in the military.
Can you help me iron this thought out? Does that sound correct?
Woodsman
Paeyson hotshots assistant supt up n left too…..
Dale1,
I know of the Payson IHC & can figure out who their asst superintendent is, but, what are you trying to say? Where were they and where did they go? Why? You replied to my post so I’m assuming what you are saying has something to do with what I said. Is this correct?
Thanks,
Woodsman
Don’t hold your breath Dale1 makes a comment or statement then never comes back it was frustrating for some time till I just quit asking questions back.
Bob,
Thanks. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but I believe you, Seems he is totally full of shit. Seen it many times before. Appreciate the heads up.
Woodsman
Woodsman—- I found out the Payson Assistant Transferred to a Fuels Tech Position applied for and was selected— no problems or other things.
So still at a loss on what Dale1 is implying.
I think RTS was more referring to the higher eschelons of the military. The grunt such as myself pretty much was under strict orders regardless. When I was told to jump I jumped–well generally. But I understand his position.
However, this GMHS sign reminds me of boot camp “Fort Bliss Texas. True, you might endanger someone else’s life if not following orders, but the GMHS incident of going against all safety rules while witnessing a wild fire of magnanimous proportions under wind conditions that could alter any moment had to be one of the greatest blunders in wild land fire fighting history. And it needs to go down in history that way so that future Marsh and Steed boss types contemplate the deaths of those 17 young men under their watch. To risk young lives by breaking all the safety rules and common sense in order to save vacant structures sets them up for charges and I would suspect close to murder, if not murder as some outside incident commander has indicated to my friend John–who did not get his trailer foamed near Phil’s U Stow It. Too many influential and important and knowledgeable wild land fire people have opined this along with the very informed and experienced people on this site.
Consider that I am not a wild land fire fighter but common sense kept me out of that canyon just looking at that wild fire and how quickly it was advancing though the manzanita. Cowboy McKensie is another man along with most cowboys and hikers in this county that had they been there on that two track would have said exactly what Rick McKensied said to those fire fighters early the morning they died. Stay out of that Manzanita.
I did run into Rick two week ends ago. He lost his place of living when the Bar A ranch Willis attempted to save burned down. He is now living temporarily in Wittmann but tells me he wants to come back to his home area of Yarnell. He would be a good one for investigators and movie maker and author types to talk to since his family is hooked to the area for some 150 years. Much can be learned from that man both in history and how to tangle with the brush in this area.
Seems to me after seeing the GMHS creed as written on that sign and considering how they go to some school to learn how to survive a wild fire that much ought to be changed at least in their area. They certainly are not any example to the wild fire fighting community unless you want to say the young fellows that died following dumb orders from carless leaders are heroes. They did after all strictly follow orders and Donut’s naïve statements attest to the fact that they would innocently
follow orders having faith that their leaders would keep them safe. Marsh and Steed and unspoken others failed their men who had put their lives in their bosses hands.
If anything is to be said for Marsh it would be that he could have stayed at the ranch but instead got back to the men to try to save them after his terrible mistake of ordering them into the brush with the fire and weather situation as it was. It was like pulling the trigger and once the guy is bleeding to death, decide to revive the guy. Charlie Ray did that on the Ranch when I was working for him when he shot Frank McCauly off the horse then drug him by the hair up into the International Scout and took him to the hospital. Charley paid for his error by loosing the ranch and Marsh by loosing his life. But Frank lived for another ten years in a wheel chair while all these young men (17 lives unfathomably killed) by the fatal error of their bosses.
Life goes on but we will never forget 6-30-13 is written on my old 73 Chevrolet pick up truck. My truck ain’t pretty but neither was the sacrificing of 17 young lives for ego, ignorance and stupidity.
This is really something to contemplate. So much to learn from this tragedy.
Reply to Woodsman post on
March 13, 2016 at 4:43 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Thanks for the info.
>>
>> So the “must always obey orders” comes from
>> the wildfire service and not the military. In other
>> words, if one were to place the ‘blame’ for strictly
>> obeying orders on a wff because of his military
>> service, they would be wrong. That concept of
>> ‘strictly obeying orders’ comes from the hotshot
>> culture itself. It may be incorrectly blamed on
>> the effects of prior military service because of
>> the perception that is how it’s done in the military.
>>
>> Can you help me iron this thought out?
>> Does that sound correct?
Woodsman… just wanted you to know I’m not ignoring this question. Look for a longer post that will be a collection of all the things the people that knew Jesse had to say about how the REASON he was in WFF is because it was (quote) “the closest thing to the Marines he could find in civilian life”.
So yes… I believe you are right… but it cannot be denied that Jesse Steed himself was ‘bringing’ a lot of ‘Semper Fi’ to the firelines himself. It was ‘his world’… including the whole “let’s all dance with Pukie the Clown” stuff.
There’s also the complicating factor that despite everything Darrell Willis and Mike Dudley and others said about Granite Mountain not having anyone on it that was ‘cross-trained’ in structural firefighting… that has always been a LIE.
Jesse Steed himself spent an entire year, just prior to joining GM, working on ‘Engine Crew 2’ ( structural side ) for the Prescott Fire Department.
Jesse had already ‘crossed over’ to ‘Structural’ in-between is gig with the “Prescott Forest Hotshots” and when he actually joined the GM Hotshots.
Anyway… crazy busy here and still finishing that ‘longer post’.
This is an important question… and (perhaps) the most important ‘takeaway’ from the entire Incident as far as figuring out why it really happened…. and how to prevent it from happening again.
Maybe a ‘catch phrase’ is needed for all the actual ex-marines who DO find themselves ‘out there’ in line command positions and tasked with the safety of others.
Something like the short-but-to-the-point phrase…
“Turn around… don’t drown!”.
Maybe something like…
“Screw Semper Fi… don’t DIE!”.
WTKTT,
Thanks. I look forward to reading what you have to say on this topic whenever you get the chance.
Woodsman
**
** THE YARNELL HILL ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT
**
** ‘STAFF RIDE’ VERSUS ‘DAY OF INQUIRY’.
With the addition of the ‘plain-text’ version of the original 2015 ‘settlement’ agreement now available below, and the ability now to just ‘cut and paste’ from it for discussion purposes… I’ll get the ball rolling with the following…
———————————————————————————————–
APPENDIX-A
What ASFD will do:
1. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will meet for a full day (8 hours) with the GMIHC families and their consultants/experts to review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts. Counsel for the State Forester and the survivors shall be present. To the extent possible questions will be submitted in writing 2 weeks in advance of the meeting. This will be a facilitated learning process, and Forestry will provide a facilitator to assist with this experience. Plaintiffs may request that specific individuals from ASFD and others who were present during the Yarnell Hill Fire attend.
2. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request a Lessons Learned product regarding the Yarnell Hill fire.
3. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request that NWCG create a staff ride for the Yarnell Hill fire and will make its personnel and information it has collected available. In addition, ASFD will recommend that family members of the GMIHC crew be included in the process of developing the staff ride, and that NWCG review how this Fire relates to the Common Denominators in Fatality Fires and figure out if there is a common thread.
——————————————————————————————
Key-sentence…
“ASFD will meet for a full day (8 hours) with the GMIHC families and their consultants/experts to review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts.”
Key phrase…
“ASFD WILL meet”.
That’s a REQUIREMENT… not an ‘option’ or not a ‘favor to the familes’ or ‘if we feel like it’.
We can now (all) see that it is an essential ‘Court ordered’ mandate in this ‘settlement’.
And this is NOT a ‘Staff Ride’. That is something ELSE entirely that ASFD ‘WILL DO’.
So if ANY of the family members who are currently getting these emails from this newly-hired Boursier guy at ASFD inviting them to the April ‘Beta Staff Ride’. are wondering if that ‘Staff Ride’ is the ONLY time/place they are going to be allowed to ‘ask questions’ about why their loved ones died that day…
…the answer is NO.
Family members should ALSO be receiving some kind of information about when this OTHER ‘Day of Inquiry’ is supposed to take place… and when they are supposed to start submitting their WRITTEN QUESTIONS and the list of people that the family members want to REQUIRE to be in attendance that day to ANSWER their questions.
Both the ‘Day of Inquiry’ and the ‘Staff Ride’ share the same ‘qualifying phrase’…
“After all litigation is concluded, including appeals”.
Well… we already KNOW that the ‘Staff Ride’ is now fully formed, planned and organized, and has already undergone an ‘Alpha’ test ( February 18, 2016 ) and the ‘Beta’ test ( where family members are being invited as per the Settlement ) is already scheduled for early April.
So if the trigger-event of “After all litigation is concluded, including appeals” has already been met with regards to this ‘Staff Ride’… then WHEN is the “Day of Inquiry” scheduled to take place?
The family members have a right to know so they can start preparing for it, and submitting their list of questions AND the ‘people’ that they want to REQUIRE to be there to answer their questions.
I have a question. After reading all that is it possible for Desiree or Claire’s children to sue when of age if clarity is publicly reached or say in a year or so could a brother or sister or other parent that had not yet filed claimed and why mention direct Roy Hall and Russ Shumate. We meet with that officer soon JD so any questions you have for him because he is first hand account of crucial times in the start. I want to acknowledge publicly some loved ones do appreciate this site and its continuous participation and never giving up and also that some did not want to sign this paper but had they not it would not bring their son back and since so many signed it would reflect that just some wouldn’t and remember the treatment was not equal on the aftermath of the loss of their son and many forefront folks did see plenty in a lot of ways but some did not nor seemed help or attention. Some hated me before they met me because of rumors fed and when they spent time with me asked me to accept their apologies for they allowed and listened to others take on me like that was facts. I can say to this day when it comes to the loved ones and the ones I met with some man on that July 2013 hike I am forever sorry for not connecting properly but that was my first week to open up public to locals and a world after being locked up for decades…only time I had people around me was the facade time of Hollyweird but that’s networking and when I looked like Josh Brolin fiancée.. But to achieve that look took hardcore focus and discipline to body head to toe and spent a grand on haircut n style no problem and had others care for my fingernails and toenails and skin and I was always bronzed tan but I don’t have that career anymore so now I look like Josh’s brother Jess fiancée nowadays and that’s fine by me because Josh always had a rebel side to him craving dysfunction and when Josh’s mom died Josh has not touched into the wildlife but the wildlife side of life so I hope the Weavers offer him the chance to connect from the soul to what the Weavers can offer more than just main part in some movie…hope it connects him to his mother and see his current life if its what he wants or a society thing…I can go on with Josh but remember this he is just like any of us. Human…I also hope his new mom sees the whole package with James and has a good sit down just the souls of the two and remember what brought them together.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 10, 2016 at 7:33 am
>> Joy A Collura asked…
>>
>> I have a question. After reading all that is it possible for Desiree
>> or Claire’s children to sue when of age if clarity is publicly reached
>> or say in a year or so could a brother or sister or other parent that
>> had not yet filed claimed
First and foremost… IANAL ( I Am Not A Lawyer )… but if you look at the actual settlement agreement you will keep seeing the following sort of language repeated over and over…
“This Settlement Agreement and Release is entered into by (Plaintiff’s NAME), for
hise/herself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of ( Name of deceased GM Hotshot ).”
The phrase “and on behalf of ALL statutory beneficiares” means that this represents a ‘settlement’ on behalf of EVERYONE related to that deceased Hotshot who might have had their own ‘statutory right’ to file their own ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit.
In the State of Arizona, that’s a pretty limited range of people and usually just includes spouses, children, parents.
Arizona does NOT allow ‘siblings’ ( brothers and sisters, either blood or in-law ) to file ‘wrongful death’ suits. They are not considered ‘statutory beneficiaries’.
The ‘children’ part also implies ‘dependent children’. Grown adults who are self-supporting would also have a hard time qualifying as ‘statutory beneficiaries’ in just about any State of the Union, Arizona included ( but it’s possible ).
But there are also always ‘exceptions’ when it comes to stuff like this, and each and every case has to be taken on its own merits.
Example: As we see here in the case of Mr. and Mrs. McKee… the courts recognize the fact that biological parents MIGHT be legally ‘divorced’ when one of their children suffers a possible ‘wrongful death’ because of the negligence of others.
In cases like that… BOTH of the parents are ‘statutory beneficiaries’… but the court ( including Arizona courts ) does NOT require them to ‘consolidate’ and only file one lawsuit that includes (qhote) “all statutory beneficiares”.
The Courts allow BOTH parents to file their OWN separate “wrongful death” lawsuits, with their own ( also separate ) attorneys.
That’s why we also see statements like this in the Yarnell Settlement…
——————————————————————–
This Settlement Agreement and Release is entered into by Grant Mckee, for himself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of Grant McKee, Jr., deceased, excepting only the claims asserted in separate litigation by Marcia McKee;
——————————————————————–
So even though this part of the document has the same “and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries” ( which would normally include both parents )… the attorneys for the State of Arizona ALSO made it perfectly clear that Marcia McKee ( mother ) has her OWN totally separate ‘wrongful death’ legal action in progress… and this ‘settlement’ with Grant Scott McKee ( father ) has nothing to do with that.
That’s why the media was all wrong back on June 29, 2015.
They kept reporting that this ‘settlement’ with just the family members being represented by one single attorney ( Patrick McGroder ) represented a ‘settlement’ with (quote) “ALL the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot family members”.
That was NEVER the case… and attorneys in the Arizona Attorney General’s office who wrote up this Settlement KNEW that… and made sure to make that CLEAR in this ‘Settlement’ document they cooked up.
Other than Marcia McKee… they also mentioned the other TWO ( known ) ‘separate’ and ACTIVE wrongful death lawsuits that were NOT part of that ‘Settlement’…
As in…
——————————————————————–
This Settlement Agreement and Release is entered into by
John Percin, for himself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of John Percin, Jr., deceased, excepting only the claims of Kylie Steinmetz asserted in separate litigation by Desirre McCarthy;
——————————————————————–
This Settlement Agreement and Release is entered into by
Desiree Steed, for herself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of Jesse Steed, deceased, excepting only the claims asserted in separate litigation by Herman Federwisch;
——————————————————————–
So there’s the THREE ‘wrongful death’ suits that were NOT ‘settled’ in Jne of 2015…
1. Marcia McKee’s ‘wrongful death’ suit on behalf of her son, Grant McKee
2. Herman Federwisch’s ‘wrongful death’ suit on behalf of his grandson Jesse Steed.
3. Kylie Steinmetz’s ‘wrongful death’ suit on behalf of her father John Percin, but since Steinmetz is a minor child suit was actually ‘filed’ by Desirre McCarthy
Herman Federwisch was Jeese Steed’s grandfather, and the one who raised him, and who had just as much right as Jesse’s wife to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit, so he did. Grandparents are not ‘normally’ considered ‘statutory beneficiaries’ and entitled to file ‘wrongful death’ actions if the first-level parents are still alive… but since Jesse was bascically raised by his grandfather… that changes things. As I said above… none of this is written in stone and each case can be considered ( and allowed ) based on its own particular merits.
Kylie Steinmetz is a ‘minor child’ and that ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit she was entitled to file on behalf of her father, John Percin Jr., actually had to be filed on HER behalf by a legally approved adult/guardian by the name of Desirre McCarthy;
We know that Marcia McKee’s ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit is still on appeal and no final decision has been made there… but as for the status of the Steinmetz ( for John Percin ) and the Federwisch ( for Jesse Steed ) ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits… I’m not sure. They might have been ‘settled’ privately ( no press conferences or media attention )… but maybe NOT.
All that being said… there is also THIS…
>> Joy Collura also said…
>>
>> “…when of age if clarity is publicly reached”.
Keyword: Clarity. ( E.g. Information / Evidence ).
In ANY ‘personal injury’ lawsuit ( and ‘wrongful death’ suits are just an extreme extension of the same laws that govern ‘personal injury’ torts )… it is POSSIBLE that ‘new information’ can come out at any time.
Depending on what that information is… that can change the whole ball game.
Example: Let’s say that some workplace seemed to have a high ‘accidental death rate’… and years go by with people thinking that was just a dangerous place to work and ‘accidents will happen’… but then, YEARS later, some sicko who used to work there is finally caught and confesses to having been the direct cause of all those ‘accidental deaths’.
Even if that was YEARS after the ‘accidental deaths’ in this workplace… that ‘new information’ now qualifies as the ‘Date of Discovery’ ( legally speaking )… and the whole rule about only being able to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit within 2 years of the death is ‘out the window’. Because of the ‘new information’… the spouses or parents or ( even if now grown ) children of the deceased then have up to 2 years following that new ‘Date of Discovery’ to file ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
By the way… in Arizona there is still that TWO YEAR window for filing a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit ( normally )… but if the ‘Defendant’ is the State of Arizona itself then that comes down to just ONE year.
Actually… it’s funny, isn’t it.
The lower court Judge who ‘dismissed’ Marcia McKee’s own ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit for her son, Grant, actually said that one of the reasons he was ‘dismissing’ it was because HE thought ( HIS opinion only ) that the State of Arizona ( and its agencies like Arizona Forestry ) cannot be sued… even though Arizona does not have any ‘sovereign immunity’ laws in its constitution.
That isn’t a decision a simple low-on-the-totem-pole lower-court Judge is allowed to make. That’s something that would normally need to be ‘appealed’ and then has a right to go all the way to the Arizona Supreme Court, because this lower court Judge isn’t allowed to make bench rulings for the entire State of Arizona and what rights its citizens do or don’t have.
But regardless of what this lower-court Judge thought… right there in other parts of codified Arizona LAW are ‘provisions’ that make it perfectly CLEAR that the lawmakers of Arizona recognize the right of citizens to SUE the State and/or its employees.
This ‘rule’ about only having 1 year ( instead of the normal 2 years ) to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit if the defendant is the State of Arizona proves that.
If the Arizona Legislature truly believed that the State of Arizona and its agencies had full ‘sovereign immunity’… then why would they have felt the need to be passing OTHER laws with specific reference to “if you are suing the State of Arizona for ‘wrongful death’… you have to do it within 1 year and not 2.”?
That’s basically just a full admission ( on the part of Arizona lawmakers ), that you most certainly CAN sue the ‘State of Arizona’, or one one of it’s agencies and/or their employees.
I still think the Arizona Court of Appeals is going to ‘overturn’ that lower-court Judge’s decision.to dismiss her original ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit.
I think that low-level Judge ‘overstepped his authority’ by denying Marcia McKee even her fundamental right to simply just have her ‘day in court’.
wwtktt said: I think that low-level Judge ‘overstepped his authority’ by denying Marcia McKee even her fundamental right to simply just have her ‘day in court’.
MY REPLY- I feel the ones affected by the YHF may it be loss of home or lives or even identity in all this because I cannot begin to name off the names that have a sense of being LOST after this fire and normally would never look or be or act LOST but recently one told me “I feel lost without my loved one…and or home and loved one”…Hey Josh Brolin- if you ever peak on this site….you should connect to that feeling; feeling LOST….you just carry it different than say Jess…I doubt we will ever see him here in town but it is so tiny of a town that everyone will KNOW within minutes-
**
** THE ACTUAL JUNE, 2015 ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT
John Dougherty ( of InvestigativeMEDIA ) has obtained ( and posted online ) an actual copy of the Arizona PUBLIC DOCUMENT that represents the entire content of the ‘settlement agreement’ that was reached last June between the State of Arizona ( and Arizona Forestry, et al ) over just 12 of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits filed by Granite Mountain family members.
That document was NOT released publicly at the time of the settlement, and it’s always been a ‘mystery’ what the families ACTUALLY ‘agreed to’.
Well, now we know.
At first glance… here are some of the ‘highlights’…
1. Arizona Forestry has been ORDERED by the Court ( as part of their obligations under this settlement agreement ) to have a very special day-long meeting with ALL of the deceased Hotshots family members in which the families are allowed to bring any number of their OWN ‘experts’ and ‘advisors’ and ask ANY questions they want about the “Yarnell Hill Fire” and Arizona Forestry is REQUIRED to answer those questions to their full ability. The attorneys for BOTH sides are REQUIRED to be present for this ‘inquiry’ session and the families are also allowed to specify exactly WHO they want to also be there to answer questions ( as in… anyone they think might know the answers to any of their questions ).
This is NOT a ‘Staff Ride’ ( which is already ‘in the works’ and has already had an ‘Alpha’ test in mid-February and is also scheduled for a second ‘Beta’ test in early April to which ‘family members’ are being invited ).
The ‘Staff Ride’ thing is ALSO mentioned in the documents and Arizona Forestry is also required to obtain family member input ( but not defacto approval ) regarding the format and content of this ‘Staff Ride’… but the ‘inquiry session’ seen in the actual settlement document is above and beyond this ‘Staff Ride’ and has its own special requirements and obligations.
There is still no word when this Court-ordered ‘day of inquiry’ is supposed to take place. All the ‘settlement’ says is something about ‘after the cessation of all litigation’. It also says that about the ‘Staff Ride’… but they have obviously been going right ahead with THAT part of this ‘settlement’ and they are not currently waiting for any ‘trigger event’.
So there should be no reason to be delaying the other specified ‘inquiry session’, either.
2. There are no GAG-ORDERS codified into this ‘settlement agreement’. Normally, you would almost expect that and some kind of language along the lines of “Plaintiffs shall not discuss the terms and/or content of this settlement agreement with any parties without the expressed permission of the Defendants” ( or something like that )… but this is not ( and never has been ) “Exxon Mobile vs. The Families of Dead Civil Servants”.
This is the ( PUBLIC ) ‘State of Arizona’ making a ‘deal’ with taxpaying family members of their own deceased ( PUBLIC ) Civil Servants.
So now we know ( for sure ) that there IS no “shall not talk about it” language ANYWHERE in this settlement agreement. That means Granite Mountain family members have ALWAYS been able to ‘talk about it’… and will REMAIN free to talk about anything that comes out of this Court-ordered ‘inquiry session’ and/or this ‘Staff Ride’ experience that are codified in the agreement.
3. We also know now that even on June 29, 2015, ( the day before the second anniversary of the Yarnell tragedy ), NONE of the 12 family members had actually even ( officially ) ‘signed’ and ‘accepted’ the settlement. Indeed… we now know that it take another full MONTH following that ‘press conference’ for all 12 of the family members to finally ‘agree’ to this ‘settlement’.
See details below.
4. Despite what was being said at the ‘press conference’ ( and in media releases ), we also now know that the settlement agreement itself was completely acknowledging that it was ONLY settling the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits that had been ‘consolidated’ under one attorney ( Patrick McGroder of Prescott ). The settlement agreement itself detailed the OTHER three known ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits that were NOT part of this ‘settlement’.
Following that June 29, 2015 press conference, pretty much EVERY ‘media report’ was making it sound like Arizona had just ‘settled’ with ALL of the Granite Mountain family members.
That was NEVER the case.
A little more BACKGROUND…
On June 29, 2015 ( the day before the second anniversary of the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy ) a press conference was held at the Arizona Attorney General’s press room in Phoenix, Arizona, to announce that the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry had reached a ‘settlement’ agreement with 12 of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits filed against them by family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Though they did not make it clear during the press conference ( or in any subsequent media statements or press releases ) this ‘settlement’ being announced on June 29, 2015 was not ‘settling’ ALL of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits that had been filed by family members. This settlement they were ‘announcing’ on June 29, 2015 ONLY applied to those 12 family members who had to agreed to ‘consolidate’ their cases and were all being represented by attorney Patrick McGroder of Prescott, Arizona.
A public YouTube video of the entire June 29, 2015 press conference is still online at the FOX 10 Phoenix news channel’s YouTube site… and it is HERE…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7GASJl5T6Q
There was also a FULL TRANSCRIPT of that original ‘settlement press conference’ posted back in Chapter 15 of this ongoing discussion…
———————————————–
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xv/#comment-301932
On July 7, 2015 at 11:05 am, WantsToKnowTheTruth (WTKTT ) said…
** FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THE SETTLEMENT PRESS
** CONFERENCE THAT TOOK PLACE ON JUNE 29, 2015.
Here is a FULL transcript of that June 29, 2015 Settlement Press Conference, including the part at the very end when the attorney for the 12 Granite Mountain families, Patrick McGroder, didn’t realize that the podium microphone was still ON and is overheard admitting to his opponent, Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich, that Brnovich “got the better of him” during the settlement negotiations.
Just before the video ends… we see McGroder meeting Brnovich in the center of the stage and ( right in front of the still “open” microphone ) having an exchange of ‘handshakes’ and ‘thank yous’ with Brnovich over the negotiations.
But then attorney McGroder points his finger right at his opponent ( Brnovich ) and says…
“You GOT me!”
( As in… “wink-wink / nod-nod… we BOTH know the families are getting shafted here, but no hard feelings… let’s have lunch sometime” )
Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich responds to McGroder’s “You GOT me!” statement with three “HA HA HAs” of laughter, and then the ‘settlement press conference’ video ends.
———————————————–
It would take almost a full MONTH following the June 29, 2015 press conference that announced this ‘settlement’ for the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry to actually get ‘acceptance’ signatures from all of the 12 family members represented by attorney Patrick McGroder.
It wasn’t until a WEEK after the press conference before any of the family members actually ‘signed’ that ‘settlement agreement’ at all.
Roxanne Warneke ( who had spoken publicly at the press conference on June 29, 2013 ), Carl Whitted and Desiree Steed all went ‘first’ a full WEEK after the press conference, and those 3 signed the document on July 6, 2015.
It would still take the rest of July, 2013, for all the other family members to finally ‘agree’ to the settlement offer and sign the document(s).
Grant Scott McKee ‘held off’ signing the agreement unto July 24, 2015, and the last of the 12 family members to finally ‘agree’ to the settlement was Krista Carter, on July 27, 2015.
Here is the order in which the family member’s actually ‘agreed’ to the settlement offer from the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry…
01. On July 06, 2015 – Signature of Roxanne Warneke was obtained.
02. On July 06, 2015 – Signature of Carl Whitted was obtained.
03. On July 06, 2015 – Signature of Desiree Steed was obtained.
04. On July 08, 2015 – Signature of Daniel Parker was obtained.
05. On July 09, 2015 – Signature of Michael Mackenzie was obtained.
06. On July 12, 2015 – Signature of Joseph Woyjeck was obtained.
07. On July 13, 2015 – Signature of Stephanie Turbyfill was obtained.
08. On July 13, 2015 – Signature of John Percin was obtained.
09. On July 14, 2015 – Signature of Juliann Ashcraft was obtained.
10. On July 16, 2015 – Signature of Claire Caldwell was obtained.
11. On July 24, 2015 – Signature of Grant Scott McKee was obtained.
12. On July 27, 2015 – Signature of Krista Carter was obtained.
** THE ACTUAL SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT – PLAIN TEXT VERSION
The version of the settlement agreement that is now ‘online’ is one of those ‘Graphics Only’ PDF documents that cannot be searched, and paragraphs of text cannot be easily just ‘cut and pasted’ out of the document for further discussion.
So what follows is the full PLAIN TEXT version of that same PUBLIC document, posted here for future reference and future discussion.
It’s only 11 pages long ( plus 4 Appendix pages ), so in order to avoid any ‘length limit’ problems here on this forum I’m going to just post each PAGE as a separate ‘Reply’ down below.
Here is a direct link to the article that was just published…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Arizona Forestry Division releases Yarnell Hill Fire settlement agreement with Granite Mountain Hotshot survivors
Published: March 8, 2016 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/arizona-forestry-division-releases-yarnell-hill-fire-settlement-agreement-with-granite-mountain-hotshot-survivors/
And here is a direct link to the ‘Graphics-pages-only’ PDF-file version of the ‘Fully executed Settlement Agreement’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Yarnell-Settlement-Agreement-and-Release-fully-executed.pdf
The identical ‘plain-text’ pages of the same document follow…
behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of Kevin Woyjeck, deceased, (collectively, “Plaintiffs”), and the State of Arizona and Arizona State Forestry Division, (collectively, “Defendants”).
RECITALS
WHEREAS, the Plaintiffs, statutory beneficiaries of firefighters who died fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, filed a lawsuit in Maricopa County, Arizona, against the Defendants and others styled Ashcraft v. State of Arizona, CV2014-009160,
WHEREAS, the Defendants removed that lawsuit to United States District Court (CV-1402308-PHX)(the “Federal Lawsuit”), and moved for dismissal of the Federal Lawsuit,
WHEREAS, the Plaintiffs and the Defendants wish to resolve the pending litigation in addition to all other claims Plaintiffs could assert against Defendants and their agents and employees in connection with the firefighters’ deaths,
WHEREAS, the Parties are strongly committed to finding new ways to improve wildland fire safety,
TERMS OF AGREEMENT
NOW THEREFORE, in consideration of the promises, covenants and provisions contained in this Agreement, the sufficiency of which the Parties acknowledge, the Parties hereby agree as follows:
1. Settlement Payment. The State shall pay to Plaintiffs in the aggregate the total amount of $600,000. Such payment shall be made payable to Plaintiffs’ attorneys via warrant payable to the Gallagher & Kennedy, PA Trust Account.
Page 2 of 111
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
Whoops… ignore this page… it’s a ‘copy’ of PAGE TWO of the settlement that showed up in the wrong place. The original PAGE 2 is down below where it should be.
Quite strange–the 13 car parking lot to nowhere is costing more than the $600,000 aggregate settlement going to the loved ones. You just have to know the right people and apparently those lawyers don’t.
One guy told me a fast five is better than a slow twenty.
SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT AND RELEASE
This Settlement Agreement and Release is entered into by Juliann Ashcraft, for
herself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of
Andrew Ashcraft, deceased; Claire Caldwell, for herself and on behalf of all statutory
beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of Robert Caldwell, deceased; Krista Carter,
for herself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of
Travis Carter, deceased; Michael Mackenzie, for himself and on behalf of all statutory
beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of Christopher MacKenzie, deceased; Grant
Mckee, for himself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Grant McKee, Jr., deceased, excepting only the claims asserted in separate
litigation by Marcia McKee; Daniel Parker, for himself and on behalf of all statutory
beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of Wade Parker, deceased; John Percin, for
himself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of
John Percin, Jr., deceased, excepting only the claims of Kylie Steinmetz asserted in
separate litigation by Desirre McCarthy; Desiree Steed, for herself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of Jesse Steed, deceased, excepting
only the claims asserted in separate litigation by Herman Federwisch; Stephanie
Turbyfill, for herself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Travis Turbyfill, deceased; Roxanne Warneke, for herself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of William Warneke, deceased;
Carl Whitted, for himself and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for
wrongful death of Clayton Whitted, deceased; and Joseph Woyjeck, for himself and on
Page 1 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful death of Kevin Woyjeck, deceased, (collectively, “Plaintiffs”), and the State of Arizona and Arizona State Forestry Division, (collectively, “Defendants”).
RECITALS
WHEREAS, the Plaintiffs, statutory beneficiaries of firefighters who died fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, filed a lawsuit in Maricopa County, Arizona, against the Defendants and others styled Ashcraft v. State of Arizona, CV2014-009160,
WHEREAS, the Defendants removed that lawsuit to United States District Court (CV-1402308-PHX)(the “Federal Lawsuit”), and moved for dismissal of the Federal Lawsuit,
WHEREAS, the Plaintiffs and the Defendants wish to resolve the pending litigation in addition to all other claims Plaintiffs could assert against Defendants and their agents and employees in connection with the firefighters’ deaths,
WHEREAS, the Parties are strongly committed to finding new ways to improve wildland fire safety,
TERMS OF AGREEMENT
NOW THEREFORE, in consideration of the promises, covenants and provisions contained in this Agreement, the sufficiency of which the Parties acknowledge, the Parties hereby agree as follows:
1. Settlement Payment. The State shall pay to Plaintiffs in the aggregate the total amount of $600,000. Such payment shall be made payable to Plaintiffs’ attorneys via warrant payable to the Gallagher & Kennedy, PA Trust Account.
Page 2 of 111
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
2. Release. In consideration of the payment set forth in Section I, and effective upon such payment, Plaintiffs, for themselves and all statutory beneficiaries described above, hereby fully, completely, and unconditionally release, acquit, and forever discharge with prejudice the State of Arizona, the Arizona State Forestry Division, all other departments, agencies, divisions of the State of Arizona, and all State officials, agents, and employees, including, without limitation, Roy Hall and Russ Shumate and their spouses, from any and all past, present or future claims, demands, obligations, actions, causes of action, wrongful death claims, civil rights claims, damages, attorneys’ fees, costs, losses of services, expenses and compensation of any nature whatsoever, whether known or unknown, accrued or unaccrued, which the Plaintiffs, or the statutory beneficiaries descrtibed above only, now have, or which may hereafter accrue or otherwise acquire, by reason of, arising out of, or in any way related to any acts or omissions of the State of Arizona and/or any other entity or person released herein, arising from or related to the Yarnell Hill Fire in June 2013 and/or the injuries to or death of Andrew Ashcraft, Robert Caldwell, Travis Carter, Christopher MacKenzie, Grant Mckee, Jr., Wade Parker, John Percin, Jesse Steed, Travis Turbyfill, William Warneke, Clayton Whitted, and Kevin Woyjeck, and/or any injury, damage, or loss suffered by Plaintiffs and/or any statutory beneficiary described above. The Parties recognize that separate wrongful death claims have been bought by persons not represented by counsel undersigned (specifically Marcia McKee, Herman Federwisch and Desiree McCarthy on behalf of Kylie Steinmetz, a minor; collectively the “State Court Claims”) that are currently pending in Maricopa County Superior Court. Nothing
Page 3 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
in this agreement impairs the State Court Claims, or creates any obligation or responsibility on the part of any Party to this agreement with respect to any of the State Court Claims or to Plaintiffs in the State Court Claims.
3. Bills and Liens. Plaintiffs represent and warrant that all bills, costs or liens, including, without limitation, workers’ compensation liens, resulting from or arising out of Plaintiffs’ alleged injuries, claims or lawsuits described herein, to date and at any time in the future, are Plaintiffs’ responsibility to pay or satisfy. Plaintiffs agree to assume responsibility for satisfaction of any and all rights to payment, claims or liens of any kind that arise from or are related to payments made or services provided or to be provided to Plaintiffs or on Plaintiffs’ behalf arising out of injuries or claims alleged or which could have been alleged in the claims or lawsuits described herein. Plaintiffs agree to assume responsibility for all expenses, costs or fees incurred or to be incurred by Plaintiffs related to Plaintiffs’ alleged injuries, claims or lawsuit including, without limitation, subrogation claims, liens or other rights to payment relating to medical treatment or lost wages that have been or may be asserted by any health care provider, insurer, governmental entity, employer, or other person or entity. Further, Plaintiffs agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless the State of Arizona and all other entities and persons released herein from any and all damages, claims and rights to payment, including attorneys’ fees, brought by any person, entity or governmental agency to recover any of these amounts.
4. Stipulation for Dismissal With Prejudice. The Parties agree to have their counsel sign and file a Stipulation for Dismissal with Prejudice of the Federal Lawsuit
Page 4 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
against the State of Arizona, Arizona State Forestry Division, Roy Hall and Jane Doe Hall, Russ Shumate and Jane Doe Shumate, with each party to bear his, her or its own attorneys’ fees and costs.
5. No Admission of Liability. Nothing in this Agreement is intended to be, or should be construed as, an admission of liability or wrongdoing. It is expressly understood that all allegations of liability and wrongdoing are expressly denied.
6. State Forestry Division Practices. Plaintiffs provided the Arizona State Forester a list of proposed improvements in wildland fire safety. The Forester agrees that wildland fire safety is a high priority, and had already begun to implement improvements on his own. Through discussion and negotiation, Plaintiffs and the Forester, compiled a list of items that the Forester agrees to do or is already doing in the spirit of improving wildland fire safety, learning from the Yarnell Hill fire and helping to make Arizona a model for wildland fire safety. Those items are attached as Appendix-A to this Settlement Agreement and Release. The Forester agrees to make good faith efforts to implement the items contained in Appendix-A. However, all Parties recognize that certain actions are dependent on matters outside the control of the Arizona State Forestry Division and the Forester, including items dependent upon budget adjustments, legislative action or adoption by national, regional and local partner agencies and organizations. Furthermore, the Parties agree that, in the event further evaluation and study demonstrate that an item in Appendix-A is contrary to the interest of firefighter safety or the Forester’s mission, it is within the Forester’s discretion not to implement those items. The Forester agrees to have an ongoing dialogue with Plaintiffs, through
Page 5 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
their counsel, concerning items in Appendix-A which are not implemented and to consider alternative items or measures to accomplish the same objectives and within the spirit of the Appendix-A items. Nothing in this Agreement shall preclude the Forester from instituting any new policies, practices, protocols and technology designed to improve Wildland fire science and safety. Nor shall it preclude Plaintiffs from advocating additional improvements in Wildland fire science and safety now or in the future. Neither this Agreement nor Appendix-A shall be construed to supersede the Forester’s statutory obligations. The provisions in this paragraph are severable, and the other provisions of this Settlement Agreement and Release are not conditioned upon performance of the items listed in Appendix-A.
7. Miscellaneous.
(a) Invalidity. In the event that a court of competent jurisdiction determines that any provision of this Agreement is invalid, illegal, or unenforceable in any respect, such a determination will not affect the validity, legality, or enforceability of the remaining provisions of this Agreement, and the remaining provisions of this Agreement will continue to be valid and enforceable. If a court of competent jurisdiction determines in a final order that any part of this Agreement is invalid, illegal, or unenforceable in any substantial respect, the Parties will negotiate in good faith and execute a new Agreement that is acceptable to the Court.
(b) Successors and Assigns. This Agreement will be binding upon and inure to the benefit of the Parties and their respective executors, administrators, personal representatives, heirs, successors and assigns.
Page 6 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
(c) Representation of Comprehension of Document. In entering this Agreement, the Plaintiffs represent that they have relied upon the advice of their attorneys, who are attorneys of their own choice, concerning the legal and income tax consequences of this Agreement; that the terms of this Agreement have been completely read and explained to Plaintiffs by their attorneys; and that the terms of this Agreement are fully understood and voluntarily accepted by the Plaintiffs.
(d) Entire Agreement. This Agreement represents the entire agreement of the Parties with respect to its subject matter and supersedes all prior discussions negotiations, or agreements between the Parties with respect to its subject matter. No Party has made any representation, warranty, inducement, or oral agreement except as expressly set forth herein. The Parties may not change, modify, or rescind this Agreement except in writing, signed by both parties. Any attempt at oral modification of this Agreement shall be void and of no effect.
(e) Headings. The descriptive headings of the Sections and subsections of this Agreement are for convenience only, and do not constitute part of this Agreement.
(f) Counterparts. This Agreement may be executed separately by each of the Parties in counterparts, including facsimiles thereof, each of which will be deemed an original, but all of which together will constitute one and the same instrument.
(g) Governing Law. This Agreement shall be construed in accord with, and any dispute or controversy arising from any breach or asserted breach of this Agreement will be governed by the laws of the State of Arizona.
Page 7 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
(h) Additional Documents. The Parties agree to cooperate fully and execute any and all supplementary documents, if any, and to take all additional actions which may be necessary or appropriate to give full force and effect to the terms and intent of this Agreement.
(i) Construction. The Parties agree that this Agreement shall not be construed in favor of or against either Plaintiffs or Defendants by reason of the extent to which they or their counsel participated in the drafting of the Agreement.
Page 8 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the Parties have executed this Agreement on the dates
indicated at their respective signatures below.
By: ( Signature of Juliann Ashcraft ) Date: 7-14-15
Juliann Ashcraft, for herself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Andrew Ashcraft, deceased
By: ( Signature of Claire Caldwell ) Date: 7/16/15
Claire Caldwell, for herself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Robert Caldwell, deceased
By: ( Signature of Krista Carter ) Date: 7/27/15
Krista Carter, for herself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Travis Carter, deceased
By: ( Signature of Michael Mackenzie ) Date: 7/9/2015
Michael Mackenzie, for himself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Christopher MacKenzie, deceased
By: ( Signature of Grant Scott McKee ) Date: 7/24/15
Grant Mckee, for himself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Grant McKee, Jr., deceased, excepting claims
brought by Marcia McKee only
By: ( Signature of Daniel Parker ) Date: 7/8/15
Daniel Parker, for himself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Wade Parker, deceased
Page 9 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the Parties have executed this Agreement on the dates
indicated at their respective signatures below.
By: ( Signature of John Percin ) Date: 7-13-2015
John Percin, for himself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of John Percin, Jr., deceased, excepting
claims brought by Kylie Steinmetz only
By: ( Signature of Desiree Steed ) Date: 7-6-15
Desiree Steed, for herself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Jesse Steed, deceased, excepting claims
brought by Herman Federwisch only
By: ( Signature of Stephanie Turbyfill ) Date: 7/13/15
Stephanie Turbyfill, for herself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Travis Turbyfill, deceased
By: ( Signature of Roxanne Warneke ) Date: 7/6/15
Roxanne Warneke, for herself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of William Warneke, deceased
By: ( Signature of Carl Whitted ) Date: 7-6-15
Carl Whitted, for himself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Clayton Whitted, deceased
By: ( Signature of Joseph Woyjeck ) Date: 7/12/15
Joseph Woyjeck, for himself and on behalf of all
statutory beneficiaries of the claim for wrongful
death of Kevin Woyjeck, deceased
Page 10 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
APPROVED AS TO FORM:
By: ( Signature of Patrick J. McGroder ) Date: 6/29/15
Patrick J. McGroder, Attorney for Plaintiffs
By: ( Signature of Ray Di Ciccio ) Date: 7/1/2015
Risk Manager, State of Arizona
By: ( Signature of Jeff Whitney ) Date: 6/29/15
Arizona State Forester
APPROVED AS TO FORM:
By: ( Signature of Brock HeathCotte – AZ Attorney General’s office ) Date: 6/29/15
Attorney for Defendants
PHX-#4529542
Page 11 of 11
Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
APPENDIX-A
What ASFD will do:
1. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will meet for a full day (8 hours) with the GMIHC families and their consultants/experts to review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts. Counsel for the State Forester and the survivors shall be present. To the extent possible questions will be submitted in writing 2 weeks in advance of the meeting. This will be a facilitated learning process, and Forestry will provide a facilitator to assist with this experience. Plaintiffs may request that specific individuals from ASFD and others who were present during the Yarnell Hill Fire attend.
2. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request a Lessons Learned product regarding the Yarnell Hill fire.
3. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request that NWCG create a staff ride for the Yarnell Hill fire and will make its personnel and information it has collected available. In addition, ASFD will recommend that family members of the GMIHC crew be included in the process of developing the staff ride, and that NWCG review how this Fire relates to the Common Denominators in Fatality Fires and figure out if there is a common thread.
4. ASFD will make a recommendation to NWCG that additional training will be conducted on Initial Attack complexities and responses.
5. ASFD will recommend that IDIP explore enhanced technology as part of its review process.
6. Provided funding can be obtained to support it, ASFD will volunteer for beta testing or pilot programs of advanced firefighting technology, including radios or GPS tracking devices.
7. ASFD will evaluate including a formalized emergency radio procedure in its Communications Plan.
8. ASFD will recommend to NWCG that it create a course regarding “reality of death” which would include instruction on estate planning and family care plans. Further, ASFD will recommend that GMIHC families, if they agree, be included in the development of such a course.
9. ASFD will evaluate the feasibility of ensuring that all its dispatch centers have functioning voice recorders. These recorders cost approximately $50,000, and are not required for wildland fire dispatch centers. These recorders, if installed, would not record line of site transmissions, which are a significant portion of radio traffic at a fire, because of technological limitations. ASFD will continue to evaluate the technology of voice-activated voice recorders in all portable radios, mobiles, aircraft, and vehicles.
APPENDIX-A Page 1 of 4
APPENDIX-A
What ASFD is already doing/will continue to do:
10. ASFD will continue to meet pre-season and post season with Southwest area and national partners to review and conduct after action reviews regarding the current state of wildland firefighting and update agencies on any current or future conditions during fire season.
11. ASFD will continue to participate in SafeNet (an anonymous safety reporting system) or any successor process.
12. ASFD will continue to solicit others in the wildland community to conduct appropriate reviews of incidents/accidents, with the recognition that the threat of litigation can make transparent review processes difficult absent statutory protection for such processes.
13. ASFD will continue to comply fully with Arizona’s Public Records law by making all non-privileged documents available to requestors.
14. ASFD will continue working to ensure that all of its Fire Management Officers and Assistant Fire Management Officers achieve IC3 certification.
15. ASFD will continue to work with local, state, and federal agencies to study and improve Initial Attack responses to wildfires in Arizona. To this end, ASFD will fully support the NWCG’s Fire Behavior Subcommittee in its implementation of additional training regarding the impact of seasonal conditions in normal and extreme years.
16. ASFD will continue to use Type 2 handcrews, including Department of Corrections crews, in appropriate circumstances. ASFD will continue the industry standard practice of not asking handcrews to engage at the head of a fire under extreme conditions, and to comply with the Charts for Interpreting Wild/and Fire Behavior Characteristics (Hauling Chart), which recommends that unsupported handcrews not directly attack any fire where the flame lengths exceed four feet.
17. ASFD will continue to evaluate and incorporate new technologies to improve firefighter safety as they become available.
18. ASFD will continue to have a state-wide communications specialist and can order additional resources as needed through the ROSS system to enhance its communications abilities.
19. ASFD will continue to supply its Cooperators with a Radio Frequency Co-op Guide (Communications Plan) in advance of every fire season.
APPENDIX-A Page 2 of 4
APPENDIX-A
20. ASFD currently has an annual Radio Usage training and refresher program. ASFD will recommend to NWCG that it evaluate and if warranted incorporate improvements to a course regarding standardized s-style radio operations, including tone guards, programming, squelch PRI channel line-ups, radio broadcast protocol using an SOS system, and emergency stand down.
21. ASFD will continue to directly support the development of new safety zone guidelines encompassing radiant and convective heat relationships for greater firefighter safety.
22. ASFD will continue to support and actively participate in the national campaign, “Take 5 at 2” which encourages firefighters to reevaluate their situation during the time fatalities typically occur on a fire.
23. ASFD has committed to decrease wildfire risk in Arizona. ASFD received approximately $1.35 million for fuels treatment in the State. ASFD is working with the Arizona State Land Department to design a plan for treating fuels on State lands. To date, many of these treatments have been completed and many more are in the planning and/or implementation stage. Additionally, ASFD runs grant programs to allow local jurisdictions to treat land within their community.
24. ASFD has committed to increasing the availability of information about wildland fire in Arizona. To that end, ASFD is creating, the Arizona Wildfire Risk Assessment Portal (AZWRAP), which will assist in identifying and prioritizing high wildfire risk areas so that money can be allocated to do fuels mitigation in those areas.
25. ASFD has committed to increasing firefighter communications regarding conditions on a fire. ASFD has created the LCANS protocol, which was promoted through pre-season training conducted in 2014 and 2015 and thought he addition of the LCANS protocol to the IRPG (Incident Response Pocket Guide). ASFD will continue to refine and improve this training, and will recommend that it be included in national firefighter training programs.
26. ASFD will continue to support the NWCG’s Fire Behavior Sub-Committee’s commitment toward enhancing the “Real-time” weather/Fire Behavior information process. NWCG is exploring having the Incident Meteorologist and Fire Behavior Analyst interact with the Incident Commander and/or Operations more directly by moving these two positions to a Command and General Staff position “Intelligence Officer” that is commensurate with the FEMA all risk command structure. Test cases have been conducted last fire season and will continue through this season. Proposed implementation will be 2016.
APPENDIX-A Page 3 of 4
APPENDIX-A
What ASFD has already done:
27. ASFD has evaluated the existing technology relating to resource location, monitoring, and communication and has determined that it is not currently feasible. The existing technology, including InReach and Infinity GPS, have compatibility and reliability issues, and are very expensive. However, see ASFD’s commitment to continue to evaluate new technologies.
28. ASFD recently hired Don Boursier as the State Fire Safety and Logistics Manager. Mr. Boursier brings 29 years of experience in Wildland Fire, particularly as a Fire Behavior Analyst. Mr. Boursier is nationally known for his work in firefighter safety, and serves as a representative on several prominent committees, including serving as the NWCG Fire Behavior Calculations Curriculum Unit Chair, the NWCG Fire Behavior Sub-committee Member, a National Association of State Foresters Representative to NWCG, and a prominent contributor to several efforts to improve wildland safety and firefighter training. ASFD anticipates that Mr. Boursier will further move ASFD towards the cutting edge in firefighter safety.
29. With the addition of Mr. Boursier, ASFD now has three carded Fire Behavior Analysts (FBAN) on its full-time staff. FBANs are relatively rare in the wildland fire world, and their expertise can be an important component of firefighter safety.
30. ASFD requested that the NWCG develop guidance about what roles were appropriate for the Aerial Supervision Module and Air Attack positions. NWCG asked the National Interagency Aviation Committee (NAIC) to explore this recommendation. NIAC determined that the additional training, qualification and currency requirements that were approved in November, 2013, provided the additional guidance and training necessary.
31. ASFD requested that WFLC/NWCG provide information regarding the appropriate use of VLATs (Very Large Air Tankers). A U.S. Forest Service briefing paper titled “Follow-up DC-IO Very Large Air Tanker (VLAT) Operational Considerations” dated May 1, 2014 effectively provides this information.
32. Plaintiffs had requested that ASFD discuss use of a “Mayday” button on all radios with IDIP. Unfortunately, upon further review, ASFD reports that large fire organizations (Type 1 or 2) would not be subject to IDIP recommendations. They operate their own incident level dispatch. This type of system coming off a Dispatch console would only reach Initial Attack resources. Use of a “Mayday” would be on a single frequency that may not reach all personnel or would not be directed at appropriate resources thus adding more confusion rather than removing. If it generates a blanket “Mayday” across all frequencies, this can cause issues at incidents that may not be involved in the “Mayday” situation. However, see ASFD’s commitment above to explore technological advances.
APPENDIX-A Page 4 of 4
eric Marsh wasnt on a hotshot crew b4 as an assistant sup…… dont be a sup if you never ben a sup!!!!?/… dam….. it waS a honest misakke…..
Interesting ‘mental gymnastics’ there, dale1.
In the same sentence where you are suggesting that Eric Marsh did not seem to even be QUALIFIED to be doing what he was doing… you also suggest that we should simply consider whatever part he might have played in causing the deaths of firefighters that day ( including himself ) to be just an ‘honest mistake’?
No big whoop? No followup needed? Nothing to see here… move along?
By the way…. where is the line in the SAIT investigation report where they admit to this ‘honest mistake’ taking place?
I must have missed it.
Followup.
There is no question that Eric Marsh was simply ‘shoehorned’ in as a ‘Type 1 IHC Superintendent’ when the Prescott ‘Fuels Crew’ attained Type 1 IHC status.
We still don’t know exactly WHO the THREE officials were who supposedly had to all ‘sign off’ on that ‘test period’ which turned a ‘Fuels Crew’ into a ‘Type 1 IHC Hotshot’ organization.
Many FFs here have looked at Eric Marsh’s record and have concluded that if Marsh had had to go through the same ‘selection’ process and ‘job application’ and interview process that is NORMALLY used to hire people as Type 1 IHC Superintendents… that he would have never attained that position.
Marsh was in the ‘right place’ at the ‘right time’ to just get ‘grandfathered’ into that position. The only ‘job application’ process that Marsh actually went through was when he originally applied for that ‘Fuels Crew’ position with the City of Prescott.
Everything that happened after that was him just getting ‘bumped up’ to the next level ( locally ) without there being a normal ‘National Level’ job search to fill those positions.
Might also add The information that Marsh as a Squad boss on a crew was instrumental in having that entire HS crew sent home for using Drugs and Alcohol on the line. This caused the entire crew to be disband by the Forest Service. Then he was hired and promoted by the City of Prescott. Marsh was never going to get a job back with the Forest Service yet he came thru the back door as a Contract Type 1 Hot Shot Crew. No he was not qualified nor did he learn any thing during his time with the FS.
Dale1
There were no honest mistakes by Marsh on Yarnell. There was a total lack of
following safety rules. The 10 Standard orders, The 18 Situations and LCES.
As a Professional wild land fire fighter not following the rules is not just a honest mistake is a total failure of all your training and education. Your ability to be a leader a DIVS or a Superintendent for a TYPE 1 CREW includes an education in wild land fire on the ground as well as in school.
A total education in leadership and Safety. Your total acceptance of your responsibility for the safety of your self your crew and all the others under your supervision. No change in plans or move to a new location is more important than getting there SAFELY under any circumstance.
That’s why I have said and will continue to say MARSH and STEED killed their crew and themselves. No one else did that for them. They had the ultimate responsibility to factor in the Weather and Communications the time of day the Fuels the canyon the fire front the distance to the BSR what all that calculated out to verses just staying in the black.
Old saying buy the OLD School. During a active fire never ever put your self in unburned fuel with out a full and complete safety plan and the time to implement it.. In almost all cases that is imposable stay in the Black.
WTKTT–said the No Exit producers likely do not realize they are dealing with the Greatest Blunder in Wildland Firefighting History. Is that what Dan and Amanda are saying? I doubt it even though Dan says he wants the truth out. I doubt Amanda wants Eric to be exposed for his decision to risk lives that cost his own as well.
Maybe they can blame the fire blankets. It was God before, and happen stance as well. Accountability goes to Marsh and Steed and unmentioned and noticed superiors.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 8, 2016 at 9:48 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> WTKTT–said the No Exit producers likely do not realize they
>> are dealing with the Greatest Blunder in Wildland Firefighting History.
I think scriptwriter Ken Nolan probably went into this with ‘eyes wide open’, and he is certainly not known for ‘pulling punches’… but what I meant was that I don’t believe even THEY ( Ken Nolan and Director Kosinksi and the Producers ) realize the MAGNITUDE of this ‘blunder’… and how MANY of the standard ‘rules’ and ‘safety procedures’ of Wildland Firefighting were all being broken at the same time that day.
So how they choose to ‘tell’ this story is going to be interesting.
Interesting for sure if that producer leaves no punches–Most those lead men who accepted awards for a good job might even want to return them should this producer check into to this instead of relying on Amanda and the cronies involved in the Worst Blunder in American Fire Fighting History.
Honest but deadly mistake Dale. Who does that-risk 17 lives — too bad they put someone unqualified to be a sup in charge.
**
** ARIZONA STATE REPRESENTATIVE KAREN FANN’S BROTHER IS
** BEING PAID $681,975.20 TO JUST BUILD A SMALL PARKING LOT
** FOR THE YARNELL MEMORIAL
Well, it just keeps getting better, doesn’t it?
Arizona State Representative Karen Fann ( R/ Prescott ) is, of course, a member of the Arizona PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Board.
Arizona State Representative Karen Fann has a BROTHER named Michael Fann.
NOTE: Karen Fann did not change her name when she married her husband Jim McKown.
Michael Fann took over their father’s Arizona construction company some years ago.
It is called “FANN CONTRACTING, INC.”
FANN CONTRACTING, INC. was just recently awarded a contract ( less than a month ago ) with Arizona Department of Transportation ( ADOT ) to build the small parking lot off Highway at the Trailhead for the new Arizona State Park where the deployment site is located.
He ( Karen Fann’s BROTHER ) is being paid $681,975.20 for this.
The original discussion about this ‘Trailehead parking lot’ in one of the published ‘minutes’ documents for the ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’ called for a ‘Trailhead parking lot’ of up to 40 parking spaces… but even at an expense of $681,975.20… all they are going to get are about 13 parking spaces there off HIghway 89 where the hiking trail begins.
The entire (original) Arizona State Legislature allocation for the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ project was only $500,000… and $304,000 of that has already been spent for the 320 acres purchased from Arizona State Trust Lands for the park itself.
This ‘parking lot project’ is now showing up as ACTIVE on the ‘FANN Contracting’
‘List of Current Projects’ page…
http://www.fanncontracting.com/projectsCurrent.php
——————————————————————————–
Yarnell Memorial Parking Lot & Trailhead
For Whom: ADOT (Non-Federal)
Scheduled Completion Date: June 2016
What’s Being Done: Construct Parking Lot and Trailhead for Monument to Firefighters Lost in the Yarnell Hill Fire
——————————————————————————–
ADOT ( Arizona Department of Transportation ) was the agency tasked with doing originally by the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ ( which includes Arizona State Representative Karen Fann )… and now ADOT has just let the work go out for bid and awarded the contract to this private construction company ( FANN Contracting ).
It looks like this contract is ONLY for the ‘trailhead’ and the ‘parking lot’ that is supposed to be there off the side of Highway 89. They say they will be done by June. June 30, 2016 is still ( as far as anyone knows ) the target ‘dedication day’ for this new Arizona State Park and the ‘hiking trail’ that lets people get to it.
And here is the online PUBLIC document dated February 19, 2016 ( less than a month ago ) which shows the ‘Arizona Department of Transportation’ awarding the Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park Trailhead parking lot project to Karen Fann’s BROTHER… Michael Fann… and his “FANN CONTRACTING, INC.” company…
http://aztransportationboard.gov/Downloads/2016-021916_awards.pdf
From that document…
—————————————————————————————–
ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
February 19, 2016
TRANSPORTATION BOARD PROJECT AWARDS
DESCRIPTION OF WORK:
This work is located in Yavapai County on State Route (SR) 89.
The work is to construct an access stairway and parking lot for the Yarnell Hill Memorial, and includes asphaltic concrete paving, curb and gutter, sidewalk, concrete barrier, steel stairway, pavement marking, signing, and related work.
TRACS NUMBER / PROJECT NUMBER:
089 YV 274 M691801C NON‐FA
LOW BIDDER:
FANN CONTRACTING, INC
ADOT BOARD ACTION:
AWARD = $681,975.20
—————————————————————————————–
Followup…
Arizona State Representative Karen Fann herself owns and operates a Highway-Safety contracting company herself that supplies SIGNAGE and GUARDRAILS for ADOT projects.
I wonder if her OWN company is going to sub-sub-contract with her BROTHER’S company to supply the guardrails and signage for this $681,975.20 contract her brother just got?
From Karen Fann’s biography on her own ( political ) website…
http://electkarenfann.com/#xl_xr_page_biography
————————————————————————–
Representative Karen Fann (AZ-District 1) is a lifelong Republican, raised on conservative rural values by her hardworking parents, Jim and Sylvia Fann. She moved with her family to Prescott in 1958 at the age of four.
Growing up in a family with a strong work ethic made it natural for Karen to start her own business. Karen launched Arizona Highway Safety Specialists, Inc.(AHSS) in 1984 – with just $500 of her own cash. Her drive and determination to succeed has turned today’s Arizona Highway Safety Specialists into Arizona’s largest installer of roadway guardrails and signage. Owner and CEO Karen now employs 40 at her thriving business, and AHSS celebrates its 30th Anniversary in 2014. Karen and husband Jim McKown also owned and operated the FANN-M Ranch for nearly a decade. The FANN-M Ranch, an equine facility, boarded horses and produced equine competitions. Karen and Jim also and worked closely with area 4-H Clubs and other nonprofits to organize and sponsor community fundraisers at the Ranch.
————————————————————————–
** FANN CONTRACTING HOME PAGE
Contains a ‘History’ page explaining that Arizona State Representative Karen Fann’s brother Michael took over the ‘FANN CONTRACTING’ company from their father, James Fann, in 1989.
Before she became a politician ( City Councils, then Mayor, now State Representative ), Karen Fann started her own company that supplies SIGNAGE and GUARDRAILS for the ADOT related projects her family ‘FANN CONTRACTING’ company would get.
http://www.fanncontracting.com/
From their own ‘History’ page…
—————————————————-
For close to half a century, Fann has been an integral part of Arizona’s infrastructure – from roadways throughout the state to public works projects, landfills, underground utilities and commercial site development. What started as a small business in 1960, with one hardworking man and a single back hoe, has now grown into one of Arizona’s leading heavy construction contractors.
Since 2000 our annual volume has more than doubled.
Our success springs from a sense of commitment taught by our founder, the late James L. Fann, emphasizing quality performance, partnership-building, and “giving back” to our industry and communities throughout Arizona. It’s a work ethic Jim passed along to his son, Michael, President of Fann Contracting since 1989. Mike’s business model relies heavily on the principle of win-win partnerships with owners, subcontractors, suppliers, and employees. Jim’s grandson, Jason, manages projects for the company with that same dedication to quality construction, team-building, and respect for the people we work with and the communities we serve.
With more than 200 employees, a large equipment fleet, and our leadership team, we look ahead to many more years of constructing our state’s essential “backbone”: infrastructure and building the future for our next generation.
—————————————————-
And here is something interesting that talks all about both Karen Fann AND her brother Michael, and a controversy in Prescott over some construction contracting… when Karen Fann was serving on the Prescott City Council.
It’s always nice to have family members serving on City Councils and stuff who are willing to help you pursue your bidding and contracting interests… isn’t it?
Michael Fann took over the ‘family business’ in 1989.
From an article in the Prescott Daily Courier, way back on October 6, 1995.
Karen Fann was still just ‘on the rise’, politically, and she had only managed to become a member of the Prescott City Council at this point… but here she is already helping her brother ‘Michael’, who is now running their father’s Contruction company “FANN Contracting, Inc.” try to ‘stick it’ to one of his competitors ( Arizona Earthmovers ) over a bid that they won against her brother for a Prescott City Water Main project…
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=896&dat=19951006&id=2yUOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=k30DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4760,827125&hl=en
——————————————————-
The Prescott Daily Courier
Change orders called into question
By Cindy Barks
Last spring, area contractor Arizona Earthmovers bid $304,937 to replace an ailing water main on Prescott’s Country Park Drive.
After the work was completed, however, the company asked the city for about $58,000 more to cover the cost of unexpected work and materials in the the project.
Such change orders are not unusual. Most governments deal with a number of similar situations each year in the course of normal business.
What is unusual in this instance, however, is that the two OTHER contractors — both of whom bid on the original project — are protesting the payment.
The change order stems from the uncertainty about the location of the original Country Park Drive water line. City sanitation, water, and sewer director Brad Huza acknowledged that the city erred in its marking, or “blue staking,” of the location of the troubled 10-inch water main.
“The existing 10-inch water main was discovered to be an average of eight feet from the existing pavement edge rather than at the pavement edge as shown on the as-built construction plans,” state Huza in a memo to the City Council.
That caused complications on the project, and ultimately cost the contractor thousands of dollars in additional pavement, backfill and rock excavation costs, according to Arizona Earthmovers.
The change order was first broached by the council weeks ago, But because Council Member Karen Fann had a number of concerns about the payment, the matter was postponed.
Now, Council Member Fann and two area contractors, Fann Contracting, Inc., and A. Miner Contracting, Inc., are once again questioning the payment that they said would set an expensive precedent for city projects.
Maintaining that Arizona Earthmovers should have taken into consideration the extra pavement materials, rock excavation, and backfill in its original bid, the two competing contractors say city taxpayers should not be responsible for the change order.
Both contractors ( Fann Contracting and A. Miner Contracting ) say that if Arizona Earthmovers had taken seriously the city’s specifications on the project, the change order would have been unnecessary.
For instance, Michael Fann of Fann Contracting, BROTHER of Karen Fann, stated in a letter to the city that city specs clearly state that “utility locations shown on the plans are approximate,” and that the “contractor shall, at his expense, manually determine the exact location of all buried facilities”.
Alan Miner of A. Miner Contracting agreed. He pointed out that he bid on the Country Park Drive project “in good faith” based on the city’s specifications.
Indeed, the amount of the change order would push the cost of the project above the amount of any of the four contractors’ bids for the project.
While Arizona Earthmovers bid $304,937, Fann Contracting came in with a $323,110 bid. Miner bid $339,800 and Tempe company Gibbons and Reed bid $349,965.
According to City Council Member Karen Fann, city approval of the change order would bring into question the standard city specs and the projects that are bid under those specs.
But public works director Tom Long disputes the notion that the change order would set a precedent, or that it would represent a change in city specs. He maintained that the city has paid similar change orders to contractors in the past, including the two companies ( Michael Fann’s ‘Fann Contracting’ company and A. Miner Contracting ) protesting the Arizona Earthmover’s payment.
———————————————————————————-
So this very much just looks like Prescott City Council-woman’s BROTHER, Michael Fann, getting his shorts in a knot because he was ‘outbid’ on this project… and he just wanted to see the City of Prescott ( with his sister Karen’s obvious willingness to help ) ‘stick it’ to his competitor… Arizona Earthmover’s Inc.
Well it is nice to be a State Representative. Look at all the side benefits. I suppose someone will tell me the reason to have a trail there to start with when and if those people want to get to the site they can simply get there several ways without even walking.
Now who gets to build the statues and how much over half a million will they cost–or will they be more on the order of a million bucks. All this money should have gone toward better equipment for the wild land fire fighters, and better training. Are we gouging the tax payer with no benefit to the actual men on that have to work the fires?
Now I know why Dean, my recent deceased brother in law owned a big interest in a bank. He was in the highway construction game before that. The profits are huge off the tax payer.
This all bothers me because who the hell gives a shit about the young fire fighter alive today. Is this a precedent of spending millions on memorials and allowing the wild land fighters to continue with the same old system that killed 19 here. If any money ought to be doled out it is for helping keep future fighters safe with better training and equipment and wages.
That board has not spoken to or for anything but the deceased. They are dead and gone just like my son. I would be angered if you put up a lot of tax money to set aside land, build monument and trails and parking lots at great expense to go see where he was killed. I know that Ted would want that tax money to go to future underwater welding safety for the men that endanger themselves.
We need some tax money spent on this retardant as well. This board has no mention of the many deaths (over 80) of their own local residents. This needs investigation is and is very large concern to men having to experience in their work. Facts are this shit is a killer–but like cigarettes there is a big profit in dumping it on fires so it is another battle to prove its terrible effects on human health.
Say what you will but anyone that takes on a job where you are responsible for 17 young lives and you kill them then you are culpable of a crime. I feel that justice is not done here for a memorial in the manner they are doing it. It their plaques and awards go to anyone it is the young men that died and had Marsh and Steed survived they would be held accountable for their actions.
There is some good out of it their actions. That is they have shown the world how sorry their training and expertise was and how the wild fire fighters badly need good leadership in many cases. It stinks from day one on the management of this fire. Yet none of this is being addressed by the memorial board. Chalk this up to accident and God–not poorly trained and lackluster bosses they say and redact more of evidence that tells the truth of it all.
I doubt if “No Exit” will come to much with advisors like Amanda and Dan. They have an agenda. In fact people like that should stand back and let the wild land fire death investigators talk and let people that have solid evidence of the mishandling of this fire come forward. The truth will save lives, but crap will only allow this type killing of young wild land fire fighters to continue. So will the abuse of tax payer money continue. So will dumping of untested retardant continue.
But do not hold your breath for change. In this political world, I have heard it said–how do you know when a politician is lying?–When he opens his mouth.
Joy said, “Why are you picking on me?”
Oh…and one more thing. I already explained in excruciating detail why I was “picking on you.” I was “picking on you” for the same reason I was “picking on” RTS a few weeks ago.
I explained that I am very tired of you saying you have many, if not all of the answers we are looking for, but you can’t tell us because it would violate the trust of your sources of information. So…we have to keep playing 20 questions with you, except in this version of the “game”, we don’t even know if you will tell us if we are correct even if we guess the right question.
So…according to my score sheet, since Bob and RTS are always “thick as thieves” and you and Sonny are as well, that means Bob, RTS, You, and Sonny know many, if not all of the answers that “we”, which is WTKTT, Woodsman and I are looking for.
That means this thread has disintegrated into two distinct camps with those of us who are left. And no one needs to try and tell and me Bob doesn’t know everything that RTS knows and Sonny doesn’t know everything you know and vice versa. And at the same time, since I am admittedly NOT the sharpest tool in the crummy, I am also not a complete IDIOT, although I do know quite a few people who would disagree with that assessment.
Now…I have been telling everyone quite honestly for almost three years now that I am not a “nice” guy and yet whenever I play “bad cop” and press people to give up what they know to further the cause and do the Lord’s Work…I am accused of not being a “nice” person.
So…I am going to spend the next few weeks Jeeping and riding my quad like I stole it in some of the most beautiful places you can imagine while I enjoy the retirement the American People bestowed upon me in our Faustian bargain (and to save you looking that up because I had to, it is a cultural reference to a making deal with the Devil).
I kept my end of the bargain, I gave them most of my adult life (19 to 54) and now they are keeping their end of the bargain by financing my retirement. Thank you…so many employers make the same deal and then thanks to that asshole Ronald Reagan and his asshole buddies in the Republican Party, they sell their employees out and leave them holding the shit sack.
Guess what? When you try to run a government based on private enterprise principles, which means cutting costs to increase profits at every opportunity, you end up with a Flint Michigan water crisis in every household in the affected area and you poison the water for ALL children instead just the poor white trash and those of color who live in the poorest areas. But please forgive me, once again I digress.
I keep saying, “If my son would have been on the crew”, which if he would have listened to me, he would have been. Then he would have coughed up his burning lung tissue so hard he would have separated his tongue from the back of his mouth as well. BUT…he didn’t listen to me, that means he wasn’t on the crew, so he didn’t cough up his burning lung tissue so hard he separated his tongue from the back of his mouth and therefore, what happened to the crew at the end of the day is NOT my problem!
And since I was the original proponent that said the structural fire department culture of the Prescott Fire Department was a CONTRIBUTING factor in the deaths of the crew in JD’s very first article on the subject…it means when that ass wipe from the magazine that caters to manscaping metrosexual quiche eaters mangina (Step Brothers) of a writer said that point was “wrongly suggested”, he is talking to ME. And do I need to remind everyone exactly what my street creds are? I didn’t think so.
There is only one thing that asswipe mangina didn’t stop to figure out because he isn’t fucking smart enough, and that is there are only two choices here, which I have outlined on this thread before.
1. Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed made the single biggest fuck up in wildland firefighting history alone.
2. Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed made the single biggest fuck up in wildland firefighting history and they had help.
Which one do YOU people pick?
Whoops…I forgot to tell YOU people which one I pick. I pick number TWO.
Oh…and one more thing. I used the phrase “poor white trash”, which some people should find offensive.
BUT…my family lived in the mining camp at Ambrosia Lake north of Grants, New Mexico where my little brother was born when my father was killed working for a subsidiary of the Kerr McGee Corporation (who are truly among the most evil Republican backed corporations in the world…see Karen Silkwood).
And whoever named that shit hole Ambrosia Lake has a real fucking sense of humor. I don’t think there hasn’t been a lake in that wind swept alkaline desert since the dinosaurs roamed there, which according to Christian Fundamentalists was about 10,000 years ago.
Anyway…since YOU people, as I have said many times, are among my closest friends and confidants, I know I can share this story with you and it won’t go any further. My older sister remembers when she and I used to run around with the other children who lived in the camp to gather up leaflets that were dropped by airplanes flying overhead.
Now…she doesn’t have any fucking idea what those leaflets said, but she remembers us gathering them up so we could fold them and stuff them in the cracks of the company owned shack we lived in because you could see the outside from the inside.
So…just like black rap artists and others feel they are entitled to use the “N” word, I feel like I am entitled to use the phrase “poor white trash.”
We are after all, all products of our environments. And in a few months, all of us are going to get to help chose what kind of environment many children of today get to grow up in over the next few decades.
So..I encourage you to hold your noses and vote for that bitch (non-gender specific) Hillary Clinton for President instead of one of those asshole Republicans who are running. I mean…sure she is sneaky and underhanded, but do you want someone sneaky and underhanded dealing with that rat face bastard Putin; or do you want somebody dealing with him who admires him and wants to be just like him? Think about it…unless you are a single issue voter, just like the Christian Fundamentalists.
I can tell you Dr. Ted Putnam and John Dougherty have received all I do know on the YHF. Due to my court concern some areas I left off here because the powers to be wanted to harm me in legal ways and that is the only reason why I have not shared it all right here because people want to harm legally. Sonny did not receive the same treatment from state and county and from certain loved ones on this yet we both took all the same hikes-
Gary there is a small lake there called Blue Lake. I think good fishing but those maybe radioactive. That Ambrosia lake covers a lot of ground. I also worked at Church Rock just out of Gallop and Gallup is 70 miles west of Grants–the extent of Uranium mining and that lake is huge. One can get lost underground there–you would follow the piss ditch down until it took you back to the main shaft—there were miles and miles of tunnels down there on various levels–most mining took place on the 900 ft. level when I worked there in the 70’s. That uranium mining is a man killer in more ways than just the mine. But any old miner that worked before 1973 can get a consolation prize of up to 250 grand if he has cancer and has put in enough time. I have more than enough time but my work was after 73 so do not get the consolation prize.
My neighbor was on one of those ships that watched the Hydrogen bomb and got a good look at the thing and a nice dose of fall out so he qualifies. He did know he would be qualified as many people who lived near the Nevada bomb site that exploded over 150 underground nuclear bombs also qualify. I had papers for application from a law firm Killian and Killian on line so I passed them on to him –though I think the non miners get some less–something like 75 grand. If he passes before he gets it, his wife will be able to get it and some nice slippers off that.
The New Mexico Senator is trying to get a bill through to change the date to 1993 for people exposed to the radiation and also include some other people that deal with radiation. That stuff is nasty and we remember so many gals that got tongue and other cancers from painting those glow in the night watch dials.
I agree that greed had killed a lot of miners–you see it in the cigarette companies who withheld the truth about the dangers of cigarette smoking. I fear that there is also a cover up from the so called inert concoction dumped on forests. Ill effects from these chemicals do not show up in most cases until years later.
I think this if proven will require men who work on the line of wild fires get paid a better wage and better consideration for health benefits.
I pick choice #2.
Woodsman
I pick #3
Reply to Gary Olson post on March 7, 2016 at 8:47 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> There is only one thing that asswipe mangina didn’t stop to figure out
>> because he isn’t fucking smart enough, and that is there are only two
>> choices here, which I have outlined on this thread before.
>>
>> 1. Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed made the single biggest fuck up in
>> wildland firefighting history alone.
>>
>> 2. Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed made the single biggest fuck up in wildland
>> firefighting history and they had help.
>>
>> Which one do YOU people pick?
I’ll take what’s behind “door number 2”, Monty.
It’s ALWAYS been “door number 2”.
Just listen again to the video shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble at exactly 4:27 PM… and just 12 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first psuedo-MAYDAY would hit the Air-To-Ground channel.
Eric Marsh is CLEARLY telling SOMEONE who was ‘above’ him in the chain of command ( and who a DIVS would feel responsible to report ‘status’ to ) that the reason Granite Mountain wasn’t where that someone wanted them to be yet was because they were still (exact quote) “Comin’ from the heel of the fire”.
and notice ( again ) that I was careful ( again ) to not even mention the fact that the same video APPEARS to ALSO capture the voice of the very person that Eric Marsh WAS (apparently) reporting that ‘status of GM’ to at 4:27 PM.
That’s because ( even though I, me, personally, your mileage may vary, believe that IS the person who was talking to Marsh on that TAC channel at 4:27 PM )… it is irrelevant.
Even if we ONLY had the SECOND half of that video shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble while he was sitting in the driver’s seat of one of the BR Crew Carriers… it is still perfectly obvious that that WAS Eric Marsh talking on the radio at that time… and hew WAS ‘reporting GM’s status’ to SOMEONE who had obviously just asked Marsh a question along the lines of…
“WHY are those ground scrapers not where I wanted them to be yet?”
And Marsh’s response was…
( Because ) “They’re (still) comin’ (all the way) from the heel of the fire”.
Great truths come from Great people. Thanks WTKTT. Door number 2 for me also. You see they have already taken the fifth by redaction. They swear not to allow us to know what was testified. That might incriminate their asses.
#2 El Duderino!
As for the whole car park construction farce that WTKTT has uncovered;
The Dude: It’s like what Lenin said… you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh…
Donny: I am the walrus.
IM needs some sort of LIKE button for your posts Gary!
Thanks Otis–we need a count. I am for #2 as well, maybe we can get a vote there.
Cancel the vote, it does not count in America. The directors of this fire almighty as they are do not listen to the average citizen and any fellow that challenge their say even be he one of the retire elite wild land fire fighters we have posting here.
America is now voting on whether we should have a queen or a king in charge of this great land. Shall it be Queen Hillary or shall it be King Donald.
You can always trust a King or Queen to look out for the interests of the common man–at least they tell us that. Gary likes Queen Hillary. Some say King Trump the best option to defeat the Queen. I don’t see either looking out for good old mountain man Sonny. In fact all these queens, kings and their nobles are restricting the lands, making sure America has the greatest number of prisons and incarcerations in the world, and definitely, like all Kings and Queens want all guns into a repository that they only dispense to their supporters.
The use of stocks is old hat. Waterboarding, dogs at the throat, and shock therapy to get at the truth are in here. King Trump assures us that he will protect us and use any of these methods to cure any problem that might arise against the Monarchy USA.
Hillary is quiet but she likes burning as did her underling Janet Reno. Waco was something for the subjects to behold–they like burning of kids and opposition, especially if the public goes along with it.
God bless America– So many died to be sure we remained a freedom loving country. What happened dear founding fathers?
Excessive fines, permits to walk the land, chain upon chain for the common man- A loose dog that hurt no one cost an elderly lady 1400 dollar fine thanks to another neighbor we know that turned her in. That woman is on a small pension but the state and county judges are lenient–they allow payments, jail only if she misses them.
So these hiking restrictions, land restrictions allowing only a few to go there even though the common citizen tax dollars pay millions for all this is no isolated incident. Welcome to the new America, the new World Order of things that the Bush clan so wanted to bring in.
Hell what do I do but lift my pants so they can see into my boot tops when going into a public office today. I am surprised they did not make me take my pants down. Do I look like a damned terrorist? I quit riding planes, even busses–the fools took away a small pocket knife at a bus station in Portland, Oregon. Well I could have kept it but they wanted to charge me $6 where I could pick it up at the end of my destination from another cop. I told that guy a good thing I didn’t bring my pistol. City boys are afraid of a cactus thorn.
So Amanda and Dan you deserve the King or Queen–but Eric and Jesse are still at fault for 17 young lives. Nothing can change that, even if we wished it were not so. I say restrict the land, play the game–but truth in the end always overrides the lie.
Gary what I know I have gleaned from these wild land fire fighters–and I think you summed it all up in two points when you gave the two doors– I think most pick door number two but that is only the people here on this site for the most part. Accident, God, faulty roaster blankets, heat of the day, datura plant smoke, hang overs, and etc. What makes better sense to me if we don’t take door number two is that a bunch of fucking aliens landed up there and forced those men down into that canyon. Maybe using some kind of mind control or zapping weapons. Some of the locals have told me they believe the legends said of aliens being locked in those granite boulders–this fire popping a few may have let them loose to do damage like the leprechaun is apt to do.
Oh…I just remembered what I did behind the scenes…lately. I asked Mr. McKee in an email to take RTS with him to the staff ride as his family support person and Joy wanted to go instead and Joy helped me do that.
And yes, I am unapologetic, I have done as much behind the scenes as I can to further my stated goals on this thread and I will continue to do so.
I haven’t heard back from Mr. McKee yet, which probably means I won’t, because enough time has gone by that if he wanted to help us he probably would have done so by now.
It’s just that I thought that having a highly experienced wildfire professional who specializes in safety go on the staff ride would be far more beneficial to our cause rather than enabling Joy to satisfy her prurient interests and curiosity. And as a result, we as a group would learn more from having RTS in attendance at the staff ride instead of Joy.
Which brings me to anther topic, does anybody out there in cyber space have an extra ticket to Yavapai Counties most sought after event of the year? If so, I would appreciate you emailing me at [email protected] so I can facilitate getting you together with RTS so he can attend the event in question. I have also said that I personally would LOVE to go, but RTS would be better than me, he knows more, is far more current in all things WF and specializes in WF fire line safety.
So…if anybody has a spare ticket and RTS can’t go for whatever reason, I will be there to do what I can in his place and learn as much as I can to further our common interests here on this thread. Inquiring minds want to know. “You can run, but you will only die tired.” No…that’s not how it goes, “You can run, but you can’t hide.” We will find you (I’m talking about the TRUTH of course).
Wrong.
Why are you picking on me?
I wonder how come people don’t ask Sonny to reach loved ones and ask these questions and I never once heard RTS on the topic with you. And again I did not imply I was going but Grant has invited me to be a part to any event if I wanted but I have not gone to any…nor has topic been brought up again.
I only was harsh because you were first and never to Sonny…always the hero writing books on him and yet he walked all the hikes with me so why single me out as the one too much in the sun…why make me some idiot rambler when you said pull the records and I agreed and felt that way from the start and I am a civilian with my thoughts and views expressing them…just because I don’t find crown royal in the desert like Sonny and I am uninteresting to you than why call me out in tone like that?
Too frivolous to engage any further…
Now Joy…I was just using that as an excuse to ask for a ticket to the big event. Nobody is going to help us get there anyway. After almost 3 years it is obvious the families are happy with the status quo and who am I to judge?
I am going to keep asking for myself because I now self identify as a stake holder in the crew, all of us were. I like that term…stake holder.
And as a stake holder I have certain rights even if a lot of people don’t think I do. I believe I owe it to the crew to find out all of the contributing factors in their deaths, and I self identify as THEIR advocate.
And I have told you many,many, many times how special I think you are, it’s just that Sonny and I have a special bond because he worked underground in the same mine and on the same level where my father was killed. And me writing a book I will never finish is my running joke on this thread…Sonny knows that.
No one wants to read a book about the truth of the Yarnell Hill Fire and I have better things to do with my time, even if that is doing nothing at all. This thread and these chapters are the only place the truth is ever going to be told about the Yarnell Hill Fire. And participation here and readership is pretty darn low and getting lower all of the time, Don’t look now, but almost everyone has moved on. The Yarnell Hill Fire is HISTORY.
I started out thinking that somewhere within the ranks of the Yarnell 19 families there would be someone like Pat Tillman’s family but I was wrong. The story the army made up for the family was ready made for a big hit movie…maybe starring Josh Brolin if he got pumped up. A former ASU crowd favorite with a huge fan base gives up a 3 million dollar a year contract with the Arizona Cardinals to go fight for his country in Afghanistan as an Army Ranger and is killed in a battle by Taliban insurgents.
Except of course that’s not what happened. Two groups of Army Rangers became separated in the fog of war and Pat Tillman’s head was vaporized in a cloud of red mist by a .50 caliber round fired by an another Army Ranger.
The only problem for the Army was Pat Tillman’s family would not rest until they heard the truth…all of it. But now there will never be a movie made about Pat Tillman’s sacrifice for his country, but that does not make him any less of a hero in my mind. And his brother got up during his funeral with all of the big shots and politicians in attendance and told everybody to go fuck themselves. I liked that,
That is exactly what I would do if my son would have been on the crew. I would stand up at that dinner and tell Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney and Mike Dudley to go fuck themselves or each other…their choice. Bitter and very angry still I am hmmmmm.
Very sorry I am.for saying sometimes writing like Yoda talks you do hmmmm. Big jerk I am….hmmmm.
Gary, to denigrate Joy in any manner whatsoever is a wrong thing to do. I am sorry. Not just saying it because she is packing her hiking gear and leaving me for good but because I did hurry in to log on to stir it up. I apologize. I am drunk.
You are right Sonny, gee, I was trying to apologize. OK, let me try again.
Joy…I am sorry, please forgive me.
today is a new day
no need to ask forgiveness on things you feel-
I am okay-
Long trip today. Greed is everywhere. I hope I don’t catch too much of it–two beers is enough.
Joy’s relatives were committing illegal acts by cashing checks and selling of her Dad’s possessions before probate. They looked well healed to me so I can not understand those acts.
Anyhow Joy is now legal executor of her Dad’s estate which did not amount to much more than half a car, a few personal items and a return check of 333 dollars for car insurance refund when the car was sold. The court charged her 295 and the gas and time and head ace of filling out papers and dealing with legalities of it all put her in the red. Seems her relatives could care less, they want their heels well oiled as possible even it they do it illegally.
One wonders how a dentist can sign off on a death certificate and how those relatives could dispose of his meager possessions that belonged to Joy and her brother, but then I see this Yarnell Board and their doings to OK thousands for a parking lot and a trail that might as well lead to hell and will for some that take it I am certain.
You can be assured the only reason they want that trail so hard is that no one should be allowed to look at what common sense and wild land firefighters will tell you was a grand fuck up. But then the parking lot and the trail follow the lead of fuck ups.
But then I say what the hell, the public is so damn ignorant so they love a good lie to excuse the frivolous dumping of tax dollars. They sure got it at Yarnell.
Reply to Gary Olson post on March 6, 2016 at 10:14 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> The Yarnell Hill Fire is HISTORY.
Yes. It is.
And it always amuses me when people tend to use that phrase as some kind of suggestion that something will be FORGOTTEN… or that people will never stop wondering what REALLY happened.
I happen to think the exact opposite is true.
It stands ( and hopefully will REMAIN ) as “The greatest blunder in the (current) history of Wildland Firefighting”.
It will be studied… and restudied… for a long, long, long, long time.
Hopefully we have ( ANYONE who has contributed to this effort ) already contributed to shedding some ‘light’ where there has only been darkness and obfuscation.
Gary, you can take your arrogant ass as far away from me-
I will see you in hell, you stupid mother fucker
Don’t you think that was a little harsh? You know how much I love you. I don’t love all of the riddles you post, but I do love you.
yes, it was harsh. I am sure you get harsh from the women in prison-
I apologize.
that had to be nothing…fluff.
You are a Leo– my dad was a Leo-
You speak a lot like him…
if I said that to him above- I would not be around to tell you that.
I am sure you feel the same-
but how I write is how I am-
I have tried over my life to conform-
it just doesn’t happen but you are right God would not like that of me and so again my apologies-
I accept your apology.
Now..do you know anything that will help me understand why the crew went down that death chute and then deployed those WF Death Shrouds (c) other than the obvious reasons like Marsh and Steed fucked up?
I got that one, now I am interested in finding ALL of the contributing factors.
And I am tired of so many people playing so many games…this is not a game, this is important. And I consider anyone who stands between me and finding out what I am entitled to know as a stake holder in the crew to be an obstacle that needs to be overcome.
Now this was easier when I had the power of the U.S. Government behind me rather than as in front of me, but if more than one person knows a secret, it is only a matter of time before everyone knows it.
Hello Gary et a; Thank U for ur generous contributions in this tragedy. Joy and I did see it all. I am not a snitch and I Joy I hope not either. But always remember joy is way ahead of Sonny in intelligence and connivance. Sonny is part of the background only. Joy is like my son Ted., way ahead of me and most in intelligence. Most of if not all of the credit of the exposures of lies belongs to Joy.
Joy said, RIDDLE me THIS,
Joy A. Collura says
MARCH 5, 2016 AT 10:44 PM
1. “what you just said” What I said is whoever is representing the families should already have pulled the training records of the crew and gone over them with a fine tooth comb BEFORE their worthless lawsuits were either settled for a song and a promise, or dismissed outright because the reason the crew died is within those records. Their deeply flawed training that brain-washed them to depend on WF Death Shrouds to save their lives over real time independent decision making where they were able consider other options…like run to the BSR in about the same amount of time it took Marsh to run to them, except they had quite a bit more including the time it took them to decide to deploy where they did, and then communicate that to Marsh. OR scatter to the boulder fields where most if not all of them would have survived, but the bottom line is this; IF the area where a WF is considering deploying his or her fire shelter is NOT survivable i.e., way to small given the flame lengths and fuel type (temperature) RUN while looking for a spot that is survivable, if you need 16 acres, don’t settle for an area about the size of a three car garage.
2. “is what said” Is what said by who? Your Deep Throats?” Lets see…you have contact with only the Creator knows how many locals, current and retired firefighters, journalists, current and former officials, and everybody else you have encountered or sought out in your hikes, travels, random encounters and just living your life being Joy. Did I miss anybody?
3. “at evacuation during the YHF” I want to say this as gently as I can, because you and Sonny know how much I love both of you BUT;
a. I am deeply sorry about all of the local people who lost so many of their things during the Yarnell Hill Fire.
b. I am deeply sorry about all of the local people who have lost their lives because of the Yarnell Hill Fire because of depression, stress, suicide, exposure to smoke and nasty stuff in the smoke, exposure to slurry or any other reason related to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
c. I am deeply sorry about all of the local people who lost their businesses, or their livelihood was negatively impacted in any way by the Yarnell Hill Fire.
d. I am deeply sorry the Yarnell Hill Fire exponentially outperformed the expectations of the fire team and therefore their recommendations to the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office came too little too late to evacuate the good citizens of Yarnell in a timely, orderly, and competent manner and almost killed dozens of them.
e. I am deeply sorry about anything else about the Yarnell Hill Fire that negatively impacted, bothered, hurt, upset, troubled, or any other bad thing anybody including but not limited to all of the good people of Yarnell, the surrounding communties incorporated or unincorporated, Peeples Valley, surrounding ranches, all points in between, the citizens of the Great State of Arizona, any U.S. citizens anywhere and everyone else in the world.
HOWEVER, I don’t think that is what this blog is about, or should be about, but as RTS has informed me, I am NOT the Creator so I don’t get to say what this blog is about. Apparently no one does except for JD and his standards are pretty loose in keeping with everyone’s right to write almost anything they want to on this public forum, which of course encourages participation and the spirit of our founding fathers regarding free speech, but it can also leave room for lots of rabbit trails and random thoughts and musings which of course can be entertaining as all get out, but not necessarily relevant to the crew dying on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Because that is what I think this thread is about and should be about, the crew dying on the Yarnell Hill Fire. If it is not related to the crew dying on the Yarnell Hill Fire…I am just not interested in reading about it except for their entertainment value other than Sonny’s stories, because I want to write a book that I will never finish called, “The Life and Times of Sonny, Tex and Charlie”, which will be a book that has among many other things, relevant and real advice for all of us to live our lives by I am going to call, “Sonny’s, Tex’s and Charlie’s Truisms and Other Points to Consider.”
4. “—pull the records” What records? The records at the Arizona Division of Forestry and or their Fire Coordination Center, the Yarnell Fire Department, the Cities of Yarnell or Prescott or somewhere else in the Great State of Arizona, the records at the Library of Congress, or the Yarnell Public Library? I at least narrowed it down to the crew’s training records. You have to give us more than “pull the records.”
5. “and fine tooth them because some missing elements lay there.” See number 4 above. I will be more than happy to fine tooth them but I have to first have some idea…a hint…say for example…will those records fit in a bread box?
Joy…you are a very sweet person who has a heart of gold, but I think you have been on far too many hikes in that Arizona sun without a sun bonnet on and you may have fried your mother board or at least a few of the little wires or those other little thingy’s in your brain…no offense.
Please help me…to help you. What can I do to make it better? How can we work together to fix this? How can we resolve this? Throw me a bone…a little one? One with no meat on it, but maybe a little marrow I can gnaw on ?
Whoops, I forgot;
f. I am deeply sorry the YHF team got their asses kicked by the fire. I wish they could have wrapped their heads around what was happening in real time and got in front of that bitch (non-gender specific) of a wildfire.
g. I am deeply sorry the Arizona State Legislature does not adequately fund the Arizona Forestry Division and all other state agencies to fight all wildfires all of the time how everyone thinks they should.
h. I am deeply sorry the local fire department nor anyone else put out the Yarnell Hill Fire when it was small and could have been done easily.
i. I am deeply sorry the Arizona State Forestry Divsion did not perform their initial attack obligations the way they could have if they would have had a crystal ball and could have seen that THIS fire was going to turn out differently than the tens of thousands of fires they have successfully fought in the same way…except those fires either went out or didn’t go anywhere. But I guess this one is part of g. so I must be running out of things to be deeply sorry for.
j. I am deeply sorry for anything else that anybody doesn’t like about the Yarnell Hill Fire, how it was fought and for any and everything else that has happened since then that can be attributed tho the Yarnell Hill Fire in any way, or by the stretch of anybody’s imagination.
I do know about that Arizona sun Joy, I got caught out in it a few times without a wide brimmed hat on and my solar panel was exposed to the full force of that blazing sun and that is why I am a little “off.”
But…you do know that it is a big world out there that is full of all kinds of records so unless you can be a little more specific, it probably would be better to keep your hints to yourself and all of those other people who live inside your head (just kidding Joy, you know what a kidder I am), I think you are a wonderful person.
See how much the kidders we are…Gary, any records pertaining to both professional and personal to get a grasp of the crew to properly assess it vs using people alive to give perceptions. Even their school records. History to me means something and it’s important to fine comb from the sait investigation but from my perspective they just had it all laid out and they filled in their pieces to fit such and I always felt there is one day going to be more.
abrasive…we all can be…but please note I am upset on a topic that involves Gary behind the scenes…so I can feel apologetic for my expression of aggravation publicly earlier but I am not upset by public comment here but another area-
I want no involvement in helping people anymore-
Riddle me this. What did I do behind the scenes…lately at least? You have my permission to reveal all, apparently I don’t have any secrets that I won’t reveal to everyone who reads this blog, who are of course among my closest friends and confidants.
Now…I am was all about writing as broad of a search warrant the U.S. Attorneys Office and federal judges would let me (they did call me Gary “Let’s Get a Search Warrant” Olson after all), which was pretty narrow actually, but to ask for the crew’s school records?
That is not going to help me or anyone else here and you are wasting my time, not that I don’t have a lot to waste, but seriously? I have the same attitude here on this blog that I had at work both as a hotshot crew boss and federal agent…I’m not here to make friends and add to my Christmas card list. I am here to do a job. And that job is to find out why the crew went down that fucking death chute and then crawled into those fucking WF Death Shrouds (c)…nothing else.
I have suspected that you don’t really know anything of any value as to why the crew died for some time now, and if telling me to pull any and all records pertaining to everyone on the crew for all of their history on this earth is the best you can do, well…I will miss your sunshine attitude and quirky personality, but entertainment value only goes so far.
Yes the hike is not 23 and Joy stated it was only 21–except I was hiking off the mountain and back up again due to that trail thing then again hiked to find the starter GPS which turns up to be miles off from the top of the Weavers. Joy had to wait up on that hike, and then finally when we did drop off the Weavers we took the long route out so we could come out at the Post Office and Family Diner. We did get there at dark and having left at 7am, Joy had forgotten her peanut butter and jelly sandwich so was hungry as a bear. The three oranges and a couple beers I brought along for sustenance were a bit slim. The extra miles to that were good as I got to see the Shrine Area again. The family diner was full of firemen and had a lady Denise Roggio singing for them. This time we did not share a dinner as we usually do–those full packs had gotten us hungry. I brought in a number of rock samples form the hills–maybe some amazonite from up there. Well usual route is about 16 miles so you find hiking against the grain of the mountain with the many ups and downs that the 16 miles can quickly translate to 20. What on a map shows a half mile in steep rough country with brush to avoid you find yourself in a mile to two mile situation. I can tell you it is not easy to determine actual hiking distance in rough country and too many are fooled or lost looking at forest maps thinking that is an easy trek there. A days hiking ought to get anyone anywhere 20 miles or so. So we do translate 600 yards to helms to be much more. In that instance I would assume around double the yardage–but that is due to ziz zagging and having to find ways through the brush. The few minutes, was it 3.3 they would have been able to march there had to translate to at least 20 and likely 30. I say this since we experienced the very area they died in that morning. It was backing up, crawling under, and doing the maze thing since you had to find ways around the dense situation that was there that morning. The 22 minutes that Brett the marathon man took to get to where the men died did not include the brush. That distance was already only a little past the half way mark from the two track. Until you have actually endured the manzanita brush struggle you can’t understand Rick McKinsey’s famous words-“Don’t you boys get caught down there in that manzanita brush”. He really knew what he was warning them not to do–he has been there and despite Willis advising like that wild land fire fighters can get through it like butter, hell even a Bear can not. Most of the firemen I offered to follow me through some that they went through declined just looking at that shit. Only young Josh Eells of Rolling Stones did any amount of it and he was not a fire fighter. Those firemen knew something he didn’t.
Too much disinformation out there for sure. I am the last to advise anyone about this fire or give a good solid reason someone would do what the GMHS did. My explanation is the boss had something he wanted done despite the danger of risking his men’s lives and the fire men were not trained well enough to say no to a situation that broke all the wild land fire fighting rules. I have come to this seemingly sound conclusion only because of what I have learned from you fire fighters. It in fact is what you opine, and includes a stupid act that was done on whim.
Sonny siad, “My explanation is the boss had something he wanted done despite the danger of risking his men’s lives and the fire men were not trained well enough to say no to a situation that broke all the wild land fire fighting rules.”
That is just one of the things you and I agree on.
Hmmm, hungry as a bear, sounds like Joy could have used a snickers bar because “you are not you when your hungry.”
Has anybody ever told you that you write a little bit like Yoda talks?
Gary olsen thinks I talk yoda. Comical, that is. Yoda I have been compared to fictional characters but not. Hmmmmmm.
I used http://www.yodaspeak.co.uk/ to create my yoda talk above-
I get it Gary-
in person is different than online-
I am not a communicator nor want to be-
I spent more years watching horrific things close up that locking up was easier than communicating. The very person who had an ease to cut a person up and store them is about to be released and thanks to the YHF my name is now in cyber world and I am one of their targets for I saw things no human should ever have to for too many years- however I knew with all my heart when Sonny in evacuation put us out there (YES- facts Sonny ACTS like background but he is the one that placed us FOREGROUND) on the photos and my sd card was stolen that I was about to become a person who had to share because Sonny is so free thinking like above talking like he does not even giving thoughts to rules, regulations, laws— he lives and lets live…and I am not Sonny- we are and lead to 2 different lifestyles. I don’t go getting drunk talking stupor placing a gmhs loved one with me like in some relationship when I do the same straight across the board never denied a person a hike. I do not agree with his perceptions when drinking but I like Sonny either way sober or drunk but I do seem to want to hide when I see the hyde- simple as that. Yet live and let live…I let people be themselves but if I am in the temporary living space I do not like to step on piles of nails or dirt or knives or a husqi chainsaw or trip on collaborated crap and I like my walking space free of zip so yes I clean up but I gave up on his God bless his mess…until I know someone is coming because it can get out of control…I am no one’s maid or laborer but I don’t mind kicking in. I like to hike—
Gary Said:
3. “at evacuation during the YHF” I want to say this as gently as I can
MY REPLY:
during evacuation Sonny is the one who shared “Joy took photos….blah blah blah” and I was not going to share my photos at all except to few locals when I returned to show them the fire. Sonny blahed so much in evacuation to kill the time that someone from that place broke in and stole my sd card and other items and it had my life on that sd card and I can accept it burning in the fire but I don’t accept someone stealing from me because I hate a liar and a thief. I am still angry that someone felt the head on shots of GMHS was worth stealing from me because it had my life on that card which my life is “invisible” to so many but the few that give a shit about me it means something to them.
Robert the Second says
MARCH 5, 2016 AT 6:49 AM
RTS said,
“Otis,
Thanks for the article and links.
I reread Sean Flynn’s ‘No Exit’ story.
I was amazed how accurate it really was, with occasional and divergent histrionics and glorification verbiage for drama and such.”
And I say, wait…you are “amazed how accurate it really was, with occasional and divergent histrionics and glorification verbiage for drama and such?” An article written by a GQ writer who got his information from our hapless hero and the Prescott Fire Department?
An article that said, “Some people who’d never worked in Prescott wrongly suggested that Granite Mountain had been corrupted and compromised by the urban-firefighting philosophy of their department.”
And also said “The investigators also concluded the hotshots “did not perceive excessive risk in repositioning to Boulder Springs Ranch.” And they blamed no one.”
You are amazed at how accurate it really was, with occasional and divergent histrionics and glorification verbiage for drama and such?”
Really? So why are you participating in this thread? All of the answers for you are apparently in the GQ article.
Actually…all of the answers for almost everyone except for a few diehards who participate here can be found in the GQ article and if you do have any questions…you can ask Doughnut. So…
Gary,
I guess that is the result of being sleep deficient and skimming rather than actually reading the article like I should have.
RTS,
Thank you for clearing that up for me. Tonight was the first time I have ever read anything in GQ. I always thought that was the go-to place for metrosexuals who manscape and eat quiche, which I had to Google to even know how to spell, so I have never seen any point in reading anything they have to say about anything, but this recent buzz about “No Exit” sent me there tonight.
I know we occasionally have our differences, although we agree about more than we disagree about, but I was concerned tonight about…me. Yes…I know, it is hard to believe I have doubts about my favorite topic…me. Whew…that was close, but now I can stand down…crisis narrowly averted.
**
** IS THE FILM ABOUT YARNELL REALLY GOING TO BE BASED ON
** SEAN FLYNN’S ARTICLE?… OR ON KEN NOLAN’S APPROACH?
>> On March 4, 2016 at 9:42 am, Otis said…
>>
>> …and then it got really bizarre;
>>
>> http://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/movies/billgoodykoontz/2016/03/02/yarnell-hill-fire-movie-brolin-teller/81246832/
>> On March 5, 2016 at 6:49 am, Robert the Second said…
>>
>> Otis, Thanks for the article and links.
>> I reread Sean Flynn’s ‘No Exit’ story. ( GQ magazine – http://www.gq.com/long-form/no-exit )
>> I was amazed how accurate it really was, with occasional and divergent
>> histrionics and glorification verbiage for drama and such.
In the AZCENTRAL article that Otis posted the link to it says TWO different things about where the ‘movie’ is ‘coming from’…
This part says it is ‘based on’ Sean Flynn’s “No Exit” article…
——————————————————————————-
According to reports in Hollywood trade publications, Josh Brolin and Miles Teller plan to star in a film about the blaze, one of the deadliest in American history. Variety and The Hollywood Reporter posted stories Wednesday, March 2, saying that the film, tentatively titled “No Exit,” is based on the article of the same name, written by Sean Flynn and published in 2014.
——————————————————————————–
The very NEXT paragraph in the article then says this…
——————————————————————————-
The movie site IMDB.com lists the film as being in pre-production. Joseph Kosinski is set to direct; his credits include “TRON: Legacy” and “Oblivion.” Ken Nolan will write the script. He also wrote the screenplay for “Black Hawk Down” (for which he was nominated for a Writers Guild of America award) and is scheduled to write “Transformers 5.”
——————————————————————————-
So which is it, really?
Is the movie going to be ‘primarily’ based on Sean Flynn’s “No Exit” article, or is going to be ‘primarily’ based on writer Ken Nolan’s script?
Or is it just that Ken Nolan was ‘hired’ to basically produce a ‘screenplay’ from the already-written Sean Flynn article?
That is not Ken Nolan’s ‘style’… to just be a ‘ghost writer’ for someone else. Usually Ken Nolan wants to tell a story in HIS own way.
Confusing.
I guess there’s no doubt that there IS some ‘connection’ back to the Sean Flynn article since the movie itself will apparently SHARE the same NAME as that original article… but then where does Ken Nolan really fit in? Was he allowed to write his OWN ‘take’ on the incident… or was he just required to basically ‘follow’ Sean Flynn’s article?
I guess we will find out ( eventually ).
I found the discussion below started by WTKTT who was later joined by RTS to be absolutely fascinating, revealing and a little scary. If you juxtapose this discussion with the points made by The Woodsman regarding the “Wag Dodge Effect,” it is possible to come up with some very troubling possibilities. And yes, you may consider this another mini chapter in the book I will never finish, “The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighter.”
And on a side note, I continue to be amazed by the myopic attitude displayed by so many participants including the host on that “other” thread who shall remain nameless whenever I compare what this thread has revealed in spite of all of our (especially me) rabbit trails and quirky posts. I have only perused that thread for very short periods a few times and all I have learned seems to be, “everything is already known, let’s move on and anybody who doesn’t has an obsessive compulsive disorder.” So…fuck you Bill.
I have been prompted to tell a couple of more law enforcement training stories a couple of times and yes I know…”Oh God, Gary is going off on another comparison between his experiences in law enforcement versus his experiences in wildfire and would someone like Wal-Mart please give him a job as a door greater to get him off his computer?” My dear wife thinks I spend so much time on my computer because I am pen pals with several women who are serving life sentences without the possibility of parole for killing their husbands or boyfriends.
But there are some valid comparisons. The most striking comparison for me is personal. I realized several decades ago why I was so attracted to special operations cannabis eradication, searching for back country meth labs and border drug interdiction. It replaced my need to be with a bunch of guys (and some gals) that were all dressed the same and who shared a common purpose with the esprit de corps and comrade-in-arms feel-good feeling that went along with it.
And most important, I was able to maintain my elicit love affair with things that go Wop…Wop…Wop. Helicopters, choppers, slicks beating the air with that distinctive and beautiful thumping sound, especially the old Vietnam era Hueys…excuse me, I’m starting to tear up. The biggest difference was the type of tools that were carried and used. But please forgive me…once again, I digress.
So anyway…this is the comment that pushed me over the edge, so to speak. And you know what (rhetorical question)?
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-327438
Wildland fire management could learn a lot about training by looking at how law enforcement does it. They could start by training like you fight…to win, all of the time. There are no acceptable losses. We (yes, I am still one of you whether you like it or not…I self identify) should win every time. As I have said before…wildfires can’t think, reason or plan ahead. Wildfires have to follow all of the laws of nature and physics…all of the time, every time. Every wildland firefighter is SUPPOSOSED to go home after every wildfire.
Not every soldier, airman, sailor, or marine is SUPPOSED to go home after every battle. We expect that some will die. Those people are known by military battle planners as “expectants”, casualties who are expected to die. There are no comparable terms in wildland firefighting planning, except after the fact. That is when geniuses like Mike Dudley and Jim Karels are brought in to explain to the families and the rest of us that, well…shit happens. No one did anything wrong…let’s just bury our dead, go through a grieving process and move on. Except this time apparently we also get a movie with Josh Brolin…OMG!
So anyway…on with my training story, and this is my best one so please pay attention, it is going to take a lot of typing. Once upon a time, the world’s premier law enforcement agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, (although I worked with several of them over the years who were complete dipshits but that is neither here nor there), used to train their special agents at Quantico since they are the only federal law enforcement agency that has Very Special – Special Agents so they have to have their very own training facility and do not train with the run-of-the-mill types, “everybody else” at FLETC. And when they trained in firearms, they used to place the spent rounds from their guns into coffee cans at their feet. This was obviously in the days of wheel guns before the Great Migration to autos. My personal conversion came in 1988, I still remember that day (oh, please…not another rabbit trail) like it was yesterday.
This was because their anal retentive range masters had been potty trained by their mothers by putting gun to their heads (yes, I know I have use that one before, but some classics never get old) and they didn’t want their tidy and immaculate gun ranges looking…messy. So after each reload, the agents would dump the spent cartridges into their hands and then neatly place the spent brass in the coffee can at their feet before reloading their revolvers.
Everything was working fine until one day one of their Extra Special – Special Agents got into a gun fight with some bank robbers. Eyewitnesses reported that shortly after the exchange of gunfire erupted, one of their agents stopped in the middle of reloading his gun and seemed to be looking around for something at his feet until he was shot dead in the process. The after action report concluded that this agent had been looking in vain for the coffee can to place his spent brass into. They figured this out because the agent had six empty cartridges in his cold dead hands.
After that they decided they should go ahead and do “combat reloading” like everybody else was doing at FLETC. FYI, combat reloading is accomplished by forcefully punching the spent rounds out of the gun by bringing the palm of your strong hand down onto the extractor rod after breaking open the cylinder and transferring the gun to your weak hand. Use a forceful punch because sometimes the brass swells up and one of them gets stuck in the cylinder, which will really slow you down trying to reload using a speed loader. With an auto, push the magazine release in and let the empty magazine drop to your feet. Don’t worry about denting up your fifty dollar magazine or getting sand in it.
This is of course unless you are doing a “tactical reload” during a break in the action in which case you will still have live rounds either in the cylinder or the magazine and since you are behind cover, take a second to dump them or it into your hand and put it in the pocket that does NOT have your full magazines or rounds in it. This is just in case you end up in a long gun fight and you might need the live rounds for later.
Second best firearms training story number and I have seen the video of this one from a bank security camera. A law enforcement officer (not in uniform as in a special agent, detective, off duty, or plain clothes officer) was standing in a teller line when he noticed there was a bank robbery was happening in front of him. The security camera shows the officer/agent trying to draw his weapon to engage the threat but he couldn’t manage to do so.
After several fruitless attempts, he was pulling so hard on his the grip of his gun; he was practically lifting himself off the floor. It was later determined that he had recently changed holsters and his new gun retention holster had a different gun release method than his old one had and his brain couldn’t process this information in real time. After a while the bank robber turned to look at what everybody else was looking at and shot him dead. Train how you fight.
On a side note, if you are a gun nut like I am, don’t switch up on the kinds of guns you carry. Don’t carry a gun with a safety one day and a gun without a safety or some other distinctly different feature like a different magazine release the next day, or I guarantee you, if you ever need to use a gun under stress…you will fuck it up. So…
You people have no idea how much money you have invested in all of my training over the years…millions including my salary and all other expense. Once again, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I especially enjoyed all of the helicopter rides, I never became that that fond of Blachhawks…but that is neither here nor there.
Gary,
I agree. There’s no acceptable loss in wildland firefighting. Zero.
Your comparison with LEO training & how people react under stress is perfect. Once GM’s predicament became apparent, they fell back on past experience or what was ‘in-printed’ on their brain. We know they were under extreme stress as evidenced by the obvious anxiety in the last radio traffic to AA. Another clue is the stuttering in Marsh’ speech when he radioed that he would notify AA once they got into the shelters.
They fell back to what they knew from past experience – this is evidenced by referring to themselves as ‘Granite Mtn 7’ the original name of Prescott FD’s fuel reduction crew. I believe you are correct. They were “looking for the coffee can to place their spent casings into,”a complete reversion to what is familiar as that was in their subconscious. “In psychology, the subconscious is the part of the consciousness that is not currently in focal awareness.” GM’s decisions to clear a deployment zone instead of run may be explained by the phenomenon of which you gave an excellent LEO example of response under extreme stress. As much as they tried, their subconscious took over, they could not ‘release the holster strap’, and they did what was familiar – what they had done before: clear brush (fuel mitigation crew,) “Wag Dodge” an area around themselves to escape into, and use the shelters that we have all been indoctrinated into the idea that they will save your ass. Their state of mind was not rational at the time when their predicament became obvious.
Just as your example of the federal agent who was shot dead while looking for the coffee can at his feet to place his spent cartridges, it is the best example I have heard to understand how anyone could possibly attempt to cut a ‘deployment zone’ (hate this term-it should be banned forever) in a brush choked canyon and believe you actually have a chance of survival. Under those conditions of fuels, weather, and topography…it’s just not rational.
Real discussions, like what you have initiated here, are the only way lives of future wff’s are going to be saved. Those who want to sweep it all under the rug and move on should be charged with accessories to negligent homicide if and when another tragedy occurs…and the way it’s going, we all know it’s not only possible, it’s likely.
Trainer: “Here’s your death bag, fng. Now let me show you how to use it so you have a false sense of invincibility. Remember, it’s a last resort.” Fng: “you want me to do WHAT if I’m trapped? Get into to this space blanket tent thingy? Will it keep me from burning up?” Trainer: “Shut the fuck up, fng, I’m the trainer, you’re the fng, I SAID GET IN THE BAG!!”
By the way, I stand by my words that we should BAN THE USE & TALK OF SAFETY ZONES. We can’t even define what they are – what size they need to be as evidenced by RTS’ reference to the IRPG. He’s correct. The safety zone needed to be 12-55 acres. Well, that narrows it down now don’t it?? There are simply too many variables and every fire situation is different. Ban the use and talk of ‘safety zones’ (and the term deployment zones should have never fucking been brought up at all) and just keep one foot ‘in the black.’ Good clean black is the answer and lots of it! Good clean black is your best survivable area. It will save you and your crew. You will go home after every shift if you keep ‘one foot in the black.’ False sense of security of the fire shelter is a contributing factor of many injuries and deaths to wildland firefighters in the U.S. PERIOD. Those fatalities never needed to happen.
Woodsman
Dam kid you are sounding like me OLD SCHOOL.
We had the tater Bakers we just trained and planed never to use them.
My first 6 years we never had them. Hell we did not have Fire Shirts or Pants.
Tan long sleeve cotton Shirts and Blue Jeans or Green Levies. Metal Hard Hats that never melted. Then to Plastic cause we might end up under a power line Hardly ever. But OSHA Thought we might. Forgot to add the First Fire Shirt the Orange ones
The were Treated with Fire Retardant chemicals that lasted about 10 Washes.
Some times in the smoke you could not tell if we were the flames and we always got drowned in retardant. A little added old stories for you.
I truly believe Studies should be made on what Canada dose and how No Fire Shelters are working for them.
By the time they gave us fire shelters we had already learned not to pick up Shell Casing in the thick of battle. When you get away from safe black you ALWAYS increase your risk. A highly qualified Look Out is a Priority and planning LCES first.
Bob,
“Dam kid you are sounding like me OLD SCHOOL.”
Dam right!!! I consider your assessment a badge of honor. I going to print up a t-shirt with a fire shelter with a circle with a line through it on the front – and – OLD SCHOOL on the back. I’ll get you to sign it and I’ll wear it to every training academy I attend (usually as an instructor) for the rest of my career. Bob Powers approved. Management is going to shit their britches.
” Forgot to add the First Fire Shirt the Orange ones
The were Treated with Fire Retardant chemicals that lasted about 10 Washes. Some times in the smoke you could not tell if we were the flames and we always got drowned in retardant. A little added old stories for you.”
BRILLIANT!!! Let’s make the new fire shirts ORANGE! That way we can make sure we can’t tell the different between flames and firefighters! eyeroll….The dufus that made that call probably triples my salary (in today’s money) Simply genius!
So what you are saying is that the phenomenon of fire management being one big fat group of total dumb-asses, is not new. There is a long tradition of fire managers being big fat total dumb-asses,
Thanks for the history lesson, Bob. Always appreciated!
Woodsman
Looking forward to seeing that shirt.
That idea of wearing an orange shirt to blend into the flames is a great camo idea. White in the snow and orange in the fire. Prisoners wearing the orange already blend in as many of the houses did after the Yarnell dumps of retardant. I think a few of these Yarnell bosses deserve an orange suit as well –orange would make a good background for the awards they received for their work at Yarnell.
When we dropped off from the Shrine I realized we had hiked that steep canyon that branches off from the Shrine Road canyon when we were for a time living in U Stow it unit there. I know there was a dead dear in that very canyon, killed by the Yarnell fire. To the South of the Shrine is a mountain of boulders –actually right behind the U Stow it business and only about a quarter mile South of the Shrine. There is a possibility that Mark Danielson went into those boulders and killed himself right after the Yarnell fire. He was distraught from loss and information has it that he borrowed a neighbors gun and walked off into the hills and has not been seen or heard of since. I did hear a single gunshot one morning walking toward the Library from U Stow it and thought it would be a good idea to work those boulders in that hill. Joy and I did to some extent but after learning it is private land belonging to Maughan Ranch we attempted to get hiking permission and was refused so ended our search there. His disappearance is still a mystery–a cold case study now.
Still bothers me about the video. Norb says he did see a video==perhaps the same U tube video of drip torches above the Shrine. He may have seen other drip torch videos since there were some taken over along Peeples Valley as well. We identified it by the short rock wall that is seen just by walking a bit above the Shrine and just before the locked gates that were open due to the fire in the video. It begs investigation since what Dr. Ted Putnam came out with that killed the 14 at Mann Gulch in Montana was a fire started that cut the men off from their escape route. I believe he has firm evidence that the reason the men died due to that burn started in another area was that the forest and state wanted to clean the situation up and make it good so there were no law suits Sounds like a pattern in these wild fire death incidents.. When he gets that report out it is certainly one we want to read.
Joy says Donut and Fernanda, Editor of Phoenix division of NY Times will have a book signing in the Yarnell Library on May 30 of this year. They both exoect to have their books out by then–I don’t know if Yarnell is the first place they will do that. I am surprised that Fernanda would team up with Donut considering how he went along with the withholding of information when it was crucial to the death investigation. Anything he has to attest to will be suspect and his take on the safety rules right after the fire gave us the flippant attitude toward safety and rules that would have saved the 19 had they been obeyed.
Much to be learned but I wonder sometimes why we keep searching when the whale wants to lie to the public. The excuse now is that you fellows that were not on the line don’t know enough to talk about this incident. Good reason to keep you away from the actual site as well since every wild land fire fighter we hiked wondered how those men could have erred so badly. Dan Frehole was working the fire–but he wasn’t there where the GMHS were either. Oddly Joy and I were. I have no doubt in my mind after hiking so many experienced wild land fire fighters that you do not need to actually hike the route to understand the errors made. But those that do accentuate their understanding of the error that caused their deaths.
Will this movie go back to day one and address three local fire departments that refused to attend to an emergency? Will they talk to Dr. Anderson in Yarnell and allegations of shredding of documents and arguments with some men of the Yarnell fire department wanting to take care of the lightening strike immediately. Will they tell of the Yarnell Chief resigning right after the fire and specifiy the real reasons?
Is there some way we can get that producer to get at the truth. I would love to see him hire Gary Olsen, Bob Powers, Ted Putnam, WTKTT, Marti, Woodsman, RTS, Dr. Ted Putnam, and a few others to get a better investigation of this incident that is gagged and deleted so much that no one yet has proper answers. What a powerful team these people would make in getting at the truth.
But I fear it will not happen. I think too many big dogs want to keep a lid on their badly run operation at Yarnell. Sad considering the lose of lives it will cost in the future. Skip the issues of better training and communications, equipment, bring on more roaster blankets and books by people that think the fire fighting rules are hill billy.
Gary Olsen, I hope your book signing will be in Yarnell. I will be there. You are a true retired and well experienced wild land fire fighter whose men all survived and whose book can be believed and understood. The truth and nothing but the truth is what people need to read.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 6, 2016 at 1:19 am
>> Charile ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> Will this movie go back to day one and address three
>> local fire departments that refused to attend to an
>> emergency?
It’s hard to see how they could not.
It’s also hard to see how they could NOT include some treatment of Russ Shumate’s completely bungled “Initial Attack’ the whole next day.
In script-writing terms… it’s called the “point of attack”.
As in… where does the story BEGIN.
If they are trying to make the audience understand why the Granite Mountain Hotshots were even THERE on Sunday, June 30, 2013… the the “point of attack” DOES have to include some coverage of the events itself.
I can see the film beginning with a just a long, slow zoom-in to the top of the Weaver Ridge while the initial credits roll… and then, suddenly, a lightning strike in full XD 3D Extreme Digital surround-sound to get the audience jumping out of their seats right off the bat.
Where they take the ‘exposition’ from there is anyone’s guess.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Will they talk to Dr. Anderson in Yarnell and allegations
>> of shredding of documents and arguments with some
>> men of the Yarnell fire department wanting to take care
>> of the lightening strike immediately. Will they tell of the
>> Yarnell Chief resigning right after the fire and specifiy
>> the real reasons?
The reality is… as much as many of us might like it to be… this is NOT going to be a DOCUMENTARY.
It’s a film that is going to try and make money.
I also don’t think it’s just going to be some flag-waving thing from start to finish, either.
The truth is… probably somewhere in-between.
Ken Nolan’s “Black Hawk Down” was somewhere in-between the flag-waving and a documentary of what happened… and there’s no reason to believe he hasn’t basically taken the same approach this time.
But that being said… I don’t think the producers of this film actually REALIZE yet that they are basically about to try and make a movie about what is, for all intents and purposes, the GREATEST BLUNDER in the history of Wildland Firefighting.
The men that died were already ‘heroes’ BEFORE they died.
They were already ‘heroes’ because of the the kind of men they really were and what they were choosing to do for a living.
But they still FUCKED UP ( that day ).
There’s no way to get around that.
So Ken Nolan had a tough job to do writing that script, and the producers and directors are going to have a tough time making that movie.
They have to make DECISIONS about things, when it comes time to shoot some of the critical scenes.
They have to DECIDE whether to portray the ‘argument’ that took place between Steed and Marsh.
They have to DECIDE how to portray Steed’s decision to choose job security over his own safety and the safety of those who he was supposed to make sure ‘went home’ that day.
They have to DECIDE whether to actually show that Eric Marsh basically decided ( himself ) to commit suicide that day.
Whether they get into all the fuck-ups on management that were going on all day that day… and how even if no one died it was one of the most badly managed fires you can imagine… who can say.
But with regards to the fatal decisions and the eventual burnover on the floor of the box canyon… they can’t blow that all off.
Unless they pull some total cop-out like just covering the decision to leave the safe black… and we see Steed and the Crew ‘gaggle up’ to head south…
…and then the credits roll and all we get is one of those ‘Here’s what happened after that’ text screens saying…
“The Granite Mountain Hotshots never made it to the Boulder Springs Ranch. You can now turn your cellphones on and please buy some more popcorn on your way out of the theater”.
I doubt it. Not Ken Nolan’s style.
It will be interesting to see what DECISIONS the writer/director/producers have actually MADE if/when this thing ever comes out.
Whoa, you said that much better than I did. And yes, my thoughts on this began to develop the second I read and then heard the crew refer to themselves as Granite Mountain 7. Their ability to process new information had been fatally compromised and they had reverted to their training under extreme stress and that is what ultimately killed them.
What do I mean by train like you fight? Law enforcement trains their people to fight to WIN. Ever since the fire shelter was introduced nationwide to all agencies all of the time in 1976/77 after the Battlement Creek Fire, wildland fire has trained their people to fight to LOSE.
I have the bits and pieces of a BRILLIANT (or MAD) theory floating around inside my head I have been working on for several months now. And if I am ever able to capture those random thoughts and organize them in a coherent order, it will my EUREKA moment
But first, I have something really important to do. I am going to meet some people down in the Great Southwest to go Jeeping for a few weeks. And I have some really good news…this year I am going to add a twist, I am taking my 800 pound quad along. Yes, thank you…that is wonderful news. So…lets chat more about his when I get back!
Oh…and one more thing to the families of the crew who filed worthless lawsuits based on the advice of worthless attorneys. I TOLD you more than two years ago what to do, but you didn’t listen to me. I TOLD you to pull the crews training records, pull the crews training records, pull the crews training records.
THAT is the first thing you do and go over them with a fine tooth comb. That is where the problem is, not with the fire teams plan or failure to get in front of that bitch (non-gender specific) of a wildfire.
If you would have hired me as your private investigator, (I held an Arizona P.I. Agency License at the time) and consultant, your lawsuits might have gone somewhere other than in the “nuisance settlement file.” So…lesson learned?
And just in case you are wondering how the crew’s families could possibly have known to hire me as their P.I., Subject Matter Expert and consultant?
I sent a cover letter and resume to the first attorney the families hired explaining to him who I am and exactly what I could do for them and I offered to work pro bono…for FREE because I wanted to help and do SOMETHING to make it better.
But Tom Kelly ignored my letter and resume and never even had the courtesy to respond with a one line email. Tom Kelly is a stupid fuck even if he is a former Prescott Hotshot from back in my day.
Can you imagine that? Not even responding to someone with my background and qualifications who is offering to work for free. As I have said many times, YOU paid millions of dollars to train me over more than three decades in both wildfire management and operations in addition to conducting, supervising and managing complex criminal investigations.
And I tried to give something back for FREE! I am still available to give something back, but it is now in exchange for a contingency fee. So…call me.
Like I have said, the BLM and I decided a long time ago what I am, now all anybody has to do is to discuss with me is how much they have to pay for my services.
Clarification – I didn’t know Tom Kelly back in the day, he was just a hump crewman and a nobody to me.
Like I have said, I know his crew boss from back in the day…Tony Sciacca, who we all know now as the Yarnell Hill Fire safety officer, retired USFS FMO and current PFD Battalion Chief.
Thanks Gary for some strong revelations on why those 19 died in their roaster blankets. Of course we are disregarding what would cause them to go against all sensibilities and the 10 and 18 that would have saved them.
Every time I look at how close they were to those boulders I shake my head in wonder at why at least some of them did not head that way. It must be the coffee can bullet syndrome that you talk about and RTS and Bob Powers accentuate. Surely these men had it in their heads that the only option was to lop out as many manzanita as possible, pile them around your the leeward side of the small area cleared and believe you won’t be history.
From the two track, all had to be looking at those boulder areas that are on the north and south sides of their path toward the Helms. I had no fire blanket and knew nothing about those things until you good wild land fire fighters began discussing and especially since they functioned exactly as Bob Powers says they do–turkey roasters. The idea that there is nothing but your wits to save you in a situation like that my mind was surfing for every option that would save our lives in case that fire turned. It was a spectacle that we were seeing in real time that would be on us and up close in an instant. I knew even running would be slow motion against the speed of that fire coming up hill and even slower than slow motion if you were caught in that manzanita. That was the one reason we went down where those people are now building the trail up. That trail leads right next to the twenty foot boulders that Joy talks about me us sliding down and her massage therapist said was hard on her body. They are there next that trail and it might some day in the future save some souls by placing it where they have–that is if the tourist hikers do not carry fire blankets.
Speaking to the trail it self–very dangerous for more reasons than falls, snaked and stress and heat coming up. We were aware that a fire was on the east side of the Weavers. But if you were on that trail and not aware you would not have time to escape and your only option would be to try to get up into that boulder area.
The long distance involved and steep climb up that trail can be murder if people get caught in there during a hot Arizona summer during extreme fire season. What is ridiculous in all this is that if people wanted to see the sight it is already only a short drive above the Helms property and that can easily be skirted with a road. Whoever makes up these decisions to make trails like that must have the mentality of whoever trained the GMHS crew.
Experienced wild land fire fighters who look at their actions wonder how they could have ever done what they did. The report that Steed argued with Marsh appears to be truth. If so then Steed knew he was going against all reason to risk his men as Marsh wanted him to do. The public survivor and hero Donut did though speak to the disdain the GMHS wild land fire fighters had for the 10 and 18. I wonder if Donut has more respect now for them seeing that he did not even know what they were and could criticize something that would have saved his fellow worker’s lives.
But consider also that Donut knew nothing about the manzanita fires he was fighting. He was going to deploy in the grader area–and by good fortune instead was buggied out. The tires burned off the old grader and the steel on the bottom of it even turned blue from heat with old cream cans with lead center seals had them melted down the can like so many tear drops frozen in time for anyone caught in that manzanita. All it shows in my mind is that men who are fighting these manzanita fires do not understand the tremendous energy released from them and do not know what even a cowboy like Rick McKinsey knows from experience–stay out of it if a fire is anywhere in the vicinity–it is damn sure a trap.
Willis wanted to make them out to be men doing their job and going down through that crap to defend houses. What the hell, has Willis never been caught in that kind of brush to know how dangerous it is. If you drive from Prescott toward Kirkland on you will see where a previous fire destroyed an area. Just about four or five miles past that you will again see the dense manzanita that you know a bear would have to wallow over to get through. If you go south of Prescott into the hills around there and some east of Maher you will again see miles of that dense manzanita. Those men live in an area infested with the stuff–how is it that they were never trained to respect that brush so they never attempt to go through it near a wild fire? Does that not speak to lack of training and knowledge that should be impressed upon their brains?
Now about the boulder area where we were talking to Marsh within 50 yards of the fire edge on top of the Weaver range. I am talking about where they cut line some two hundred yards. Marsh went back and forth across that fire edge several times. He was in no danger doing that eventhough a clump of bushes here and there were flaring up–they were avoidable and he just walked around those areas. It does not take a rocket scientist to observe how safe he was in the boulders and even crossing the fire edge multiple times.. Joy has a photo of Marsh and a mystery person above us in the black and boulders. Marsh came down from that photo for a third visit with us and we did let him know we were departing to the south. How did he and Steed not know there was consolation in sticking near boulder areas considering that option was available where they died? Questions I ask myself and I suspect people here have good answers to and likely the answer comes from Gary Olsen with the FBI coffee can analogy.
This last hike I became a photographer of sorts. Well at least a learner since I had joy manipulating my camera at times. Us old timers aren’t good at all the damn buttons–but I pushed a bunch of them and joy is going to transfer them to CD and post so that you can see the route we dropped down. There are many photos of Christian crosses on rocks to mark our route off the Weavers. I don’t think they at all knew they would be doing that. It is ironic and as if some unseen hand was guiding them to do that trail exactly as we came down. There are certainly other places easier and much shorter to get to the viewing site to see where the men died below.
In fact just a few hundred yards would take you above the cattle pond and into the boulders above that site–the Granite Boulders that would have saved the Granite Mountain Hot Shots.
what you just said is what said at evacuation during the YHF—pull the records and fine tooth them because some missing elements lay there
Good word expectants. But when you wipe out the whole platoon there is need to revise operational procedures. The expectant count was too high, a record in fact. Yet this one is being played as if it was expectations==new fire ahead–no big deal here at Yarnell == 19 dead, give them a good memorial and screw the factors that killed them.
to the top _____
Good info, RTS,
I agree with everything you are saying. This part is an area I’d like to explore (I realize that you are just the messenger)
“If I recall, Gary Cordes in his ASDOSH interview, was incredulous that they had deployed firer shelters, saying something to the effect of “THEY HAD PLENTY OF TIME.”
And he ordered TFLD(t) Esquibel to (paraphrasing) ‘take two Engines and meet the GMHS coming down to make sure they get out of their safely.’”
Why did it take so freaking long to locate GM? Almost 2 HOURS before locating the crew for possible medical aid. So not only do you have a member of overhead that had an idea of how much time GM needed, you have a member of overhead that had a very good idea of where they should be located – jumping out at the BSR. But no one had any idea of where they were, their ultimate destination, or where they should be for rescue? The evidence shows that to be bs.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Only Gary Cordes and/or the alleged ‘Investigators’ know the answer to your question.
You posted: “But no one had any idea of where they were, their ultimate destination, or where they should be for rescue? The evidence shows that to bs.”
Yes indeed. The SAIR was full of lies and BS and ‘the evidence’ shows that Cordes knew the GMHS’ intention and proposed destination, the BSR.
…and then it got really bizarre;
http://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/movies/billgoodykoontz/2016/03/02/yarnell-hill-fire-movie-brolin-teller/81246832/
I can’t wait to see which Hollywood stars they get to play “The Hikers”.
Joy/Sonny – what actors would you like to portray you in the movie?
‘cos if they left The Hikers out of the film, then we know it’s never gonna be an honest portrayal, let alone tell anything near the truth.
I think I’ve come to the end of trying to fathom this whole thing out. That’s not to say I won’t keep reading. I think I’ve just reached the point where I realise nothing will ever change, safety will continue to be compromised, and no improvements will be made, WFF will still be killed in the same way, lessons haven’t been learned.
…….the machine (as they say) has moved on, and “The god damn plane has crashed into the mountain!”
Thank you Otis. You hit the proverbial ten penny nail on the head. You summed up exactly where we are at and where the wildland firefighter industrial complex is at. The only difference between where you are at, and where they are at, is they think the lessons learned has been done by the rank and file reading in between the lines…. so Mission Accomplished.
You on the other hand, are smart enough to learn that NOTHING has been learned and so it will happen again. It’s only a question of when and to how many. This is the third time in history the very same thing has happened, once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern.
Nothing wakes up the MSM ( Mainstream Media ) like some news tidbit about a movie. Stories and new interviews are ‘popping’ all over the place right now.
Just Google the two words ‘yarnell’ and ‘movie’ and set your search results to the last 24 hours and you will see what I mean.
On camera interviews already with Chief Dan Fraijo, Travis Turbyfill’s father, others.
share links to that-
the vidoes
12News
Article Title: Hotshot’s father ( David Turbyfill, father of Granite
Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ) reacts to Yarnell Hill movie
Published: 10:15 PM. MST March 03, 2016
http://www.12news.com/news/hotshot-s-father-reacts-to-yarnell-hill-movie/66938765
VIDEO contains on-camera interview with David Turbyfill.
And here is the PRINT version of the interview on a separate page on the 12News website. It does not contain EVERYTHING that Mr. Trubyfill actually says in the on-camera interview ( above )… but it has MOST of what he said…
12News
Father of Granite Mountain Hotshot is glad movie will tell their story
Published: 10:19 PM. MST March 03, 2016 – By Kevin Kennedy, KPNX
http://www.12news.com/news/local/arizona/father-of-granite-mountain-hotshot-is-glad-movie-will-tell-their-story/66872162
———————————————————————
YARNELL, Ariz. – You knew it was going to happen at some point. Movie producers in Hollywood are putting together the pieces to make the movie about the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots that died in the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Josh Brolin and Miles Teller are set to star in the movie that has yet to start production. Black Label Media is financing and producing the movie.
“I hope this will be a tribute to them (families) and the men who lost their lives,” said producer Molly Smith.
Ken Nolan wrote the screenplay for the movie and Joseph Kosinski is set to direct it. The movie is called “No Exit” and has yet to start production.
Producers have spent several days in Prescott and say surviving hotshot Brendan McDonough and the widow of team leader Eric Marsh were used as consultants.
“There’s no version of this story where we don’t want to honor these men for their sacrifice,” said producer Trent Luckinbill.
David Turbyfill lost his son Travis in the fire.
“They were all heroes,” Turbyfill said.
Turbyfill said he and most of the other families were not contacted about the film. Turbyfill said it would have been nice if someone reached out, but he’s not upset. He does however wonder how accurate a movie can be when no one knows what happened on the mountain that day.
“I don’t know how they can portray a true story about Yarnell Hill,” he said.
Despite his concerns and questions about what the movie will eventually look like he is glad the story of these 19 men is being told.
“Sometimes the little guy’s story needs to be told,” Turbyfill said.
He does however wish some of the money generated went to support firefighter safety.
Producers hope to have the movie released by the fall of 2017.
———————————————————————
**
** INTERVIEW WITH CHIEF DAN FRAIJO ABOUT THE MOVIE
Fox10 – Phoenix
Former Prescott Fire Chief talks about Yarnell Hill fire movie
Posted:Mar 03 2016 03:51PM MST – By Jessica Flores
Updated:Mar 03 2016 05:53PM MST
http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-news/100164526-story
———————————————————————
PHOENIX (KSAZ) – A big Hollywood movie is in the works about the tragic Yarnell Hill fire and this week, it was announced that two major stars will have lead roles.
Former Prescott Fire Department Chief Dan Fraijo says it will be difficult to relive that day, but he’ll watch the movie and hopes it captures the heroic spirits of the men who died nearly three years ago.
Among the deadliest fire fights in history, the Yarnell Hill fire killed 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
“I just hope that whatever they do, even if it is brutal, that is accurate, that it’s honest, that it’s sincere, that it gets the message across that these were 19 fine people,” said Fraijo.
The Hotshots worked for Fraijo, who says months after the tragic day, he met with the movie’s writer, Ken Nolan, who also wrote the screenplay for “Black Hawk Down.”
“My gut is that it is going to be about the incident itself and about the people. I don’t know if they are going into the aftermath or the politics of the whole thing,” said Fraijo.
The movie will star Josh Brolin and Miles Teller. No word on who the actors will play.
“These people are going to be remembered and memorialized in something more than a yearly memorial. I truly hope it is authentic, heartfelt.,” said Fraijo. It was a terrible situation and I think it can be a learning experience about what Hotshots do and decisions that are being made.”
There is no release date yet for the film.
———————————————————————
SIDENOTE: I think it’s pretty obvious that they ( the movie people ) intend for Josh Brolin to play Eric Marsh and for Miles Teller to play Jesse Steed.
Of course we can always look at the bright side. Hotshots finally get their own movie. Hotshots have toiled in the smoke now for decades in the shadow of smokejumpers all because of the book “Young Men and Fire” and the movie “Red Skies Over Montana.”
Finally hotshots can finally pick up hot chicks at bars without lying about what they do. When hotshots are asked from now on, “So…what do you do?” They can say, “I’m a WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER” and not hear, “Oh…you must be a Smokejumper!” Now they can finally hear those magical words, “Oh…you must be a HOTSHOT!” Too little…too late for me. Bummer.
Josh Brolin? Bitchin.’ I mean…have you seen, “No Place For Old Men!”
All of the books that have been written about the Yarnell Hill Fire and all of the books that will be written about the fire are irrelevant though. Hardly anybody reads books anymore…especially hot chicks that hang out in bars.
Engine crews should not despair however, this might start a trend and then you can get your own movie about the Esperanza Fire. Helislacks…you are probably still out of luck unless somebody wants to make a movie about guys layin’ around a motel pool lickin’ their nuts.
Gary,
Funny stuff man!
I used to tell hot chicks that hang out in bars what I do. They would show a look of confusion and invariably ask if I was a smokejumper. I’d say no, I jump out of HELICOPTERS………when the skids hit the ground, I jump out.
I had a 100% success rate with this line……it worked every time…………if I wanted it to.
Woodsman
Not me man.,,I never scored.
I didn’t either. I just meant that it seemed like I could if that would’ve happened to have been my objective. It was strictly scientific research.
Woodsman
Too little too late. You stepped in it my young friend. Did you ever hear the story about the old bull and the young bull on the hill? Well…anyway it there was this old bull and this young bull on a hill…oh never mind, another time perhaps. I have another bitter and sarcastic comment to make right now.
I did not mention making a movie about the Twisp Fire because I think it is pretty easy to spin the Esperanza Fire into something noble, whereas the Twisp Fire is just sad any way yo look at it. Somebody who should have known better a heavy engine full of kids up a dead end road, no really, it was a DEAD end road.
On the other hand, there is something about the Esperanza Fire that reminds me of the Battle of the Little Big Horn. A couple of hundred of poorly armed (breech loading single shot rifles) 7th Calvary Regiment against a couple of thousand Lakota Cheyenne and Arapaho warriors who were armed with repeating rifles and who were in no mood to be messed with.
Oh no wait…a single heavy engine with five firefighters protecting an organized pile of stuff from hardware stores in the face of a raging inferno…that was very stupid and supremely arrogant too!
OK…back to the story about the old bull and the young bull on the hill. In this story, the young bull would just walk slowly down the hill thinking about the good old days while trying to catch up with the old bull…Bob!
I used to tell hot chicks I was an underground miner, That gets em running the other way in a hurry.
Not all of them. How many times have you been married?
This comment has been eating at me all afternoon…and finally after waking up from my late afternoon nap it came to me in a moment of clarity.
The Dude:
Look, nothing is f***ed, here, man.
The Big Lebowski:
Nothing is f***ed?
The Big Lebowski:
The god damn plane has crashed into the mountain!
Otis-
I know someone who is near and dear to that group of folks- CALL IT MY INSIDER –
I do not have to be around them and hear it but I already know much behind the scenes of that circle-
There will be NO hikers in that movie and if so it will be a branched off narrative to their way of thinking orchestrating the world to believe we are THRILL SEEKERS even though we saved lives that day by alerting them of the fire and we actually went to Acri’s to talk on the people who stayed there on 6-30-13. Right on- let them have that glorified platform to do their desires- God is the only one I have to be right with in this here life! That is just a story and without properly interviewing the eyewitnesses for the movie then it is just a story—like Dickman’s book—on the fiction shelf. We knew where the men stood that day and we knew what equipment was there and we knew exact time that fire took over that mountain.
I have some great news- was over at Acri’s today and got to see the mountaintop view of the Memorial Trail Park-
I will dropbox that photo experience soon but we are drained…
#1. A lot of hardwork from the volunteers- thank you to them 100%. Once that Memorial hits the mountaintop and is neighbors to severe ptsd from the YHF- very affected by fire- Acri- I said to Sonny let’s go redo our hike from 6-30-13 when we left the area- as we are on the mountaintop GUESS WHERE this trail goes to—
cbs investigative reporter MORGAN LOEW and photographer/video PATRICK are the only human beings with documented information for Morgan requested to know the way the hikers went out 6-30-13 and he took it- where everyone else wanted to only know the GMHS way of things….this memorial trail is them up ABOVE looking down smiling at us for this trail the board made to honor the 19 but they just made the trail we took out that 6-30-13 so we don’t care how ugly they orchestrate the movie on us because I know Grant McKee up there is smiling down on me for always trying to get clarity for his loved ones. To me, I feel we have honored the 19 to continue to find clarity and one of them made sure we were honored too- How funny because NOT ONE person knew but Morgan Loew OUR WAY in completion so ANYONE who takes this trail once on top to the area- that was our way out 6-30-13- that is again another nice honor for the two of us from up Above that the board members never knew in making this trail that it was OUR TRAIL that 6-30-13 but Morgan documented so please go ask Morgan for his public records and see I am right- Big smiles.. It’s never been about books or movies for us it was to make sure the missing elements speak up because this should of never happened then or ever again.
#2 DIRECTED TO MEMORIAL BOARD MEMBERS- I feel very strongly you are better off closing off that area to invite only that trail hikes because some of these homeowners that lost it ALL have spoken at the legion on food night saying another way to cash in since they lost their home and got zip is hiking that steep trail with a friend who can by chance get hurt because the steep trail is a lawsuit waiting to happen so I strongly feel you do what you are doing or have to have a certain permit to hike that area and on permit pass states the hiker is liable for any actions on their hike on the trail or the word is flying like I said above. But you do what you all want—
My tummy is soooooo swollen. I was asked if I was pregnant. So small town rumors fly that I am but even funnier they assume it is Sonny’s—like really??? just because we joke and say old married couple he is old and I am married gets me in category—we are not- but let rumors fly—means someone is talking about me vs another poor soul.
I only hiked with intention to see Acri and talk with him since he was not home in Congress and since up there peak over and get a nice view and photo of the memorial park. WWTKTT will or Marti dissect the photos gps locations or the state to make sure I was not near their off limit trails- we began there and ended out by Monica Mine area—long walk but we know we can do it with some firefighters we are due to and a GMHS loved one—if my five blisters heal—wrong shoes on hike. Same places on Congress side on 6-30-13 we argued, we argued again today. Weird.
If you take the hike from highway 89 and reach the mountaintop- you are not even close to the two track ridge but eventually you make it there. My cell is not working so if anyone is trying to reach me- I forgot charger at home and I called my husband and said I am gonna head down the hill in morning- shower and crash now- I am wiped. It was almost 11 hours of steep mountain hiking and I lightly sprained my ankle so thank God I know folks to help out—
Ok. now all this day and all the dirt travelled not one area is fenced or properly signed or set boundaries and after the retired judge and lawyer I spoke to —there is nothing they can do- An area can state off limits but without boundaries it cannot be law enforced- How does a person know without boundaries.
Now, when Sonny feels free to share his pics- he was not with me on much of the hike because he had his plans for the hike and I was not up for it- You will know by camera shots and timing of photo. Sonny has a Samsung hmx-f90 hd 52X and I had my ol’ Panasonic Lumix camera so please before you say THE HIKERS did—watch the photos and their times because much was Sonny doing his own thing while I made sure to time stamp that I was not where he was—Mr. FREEDOM OF SPEECH—I am sure he will comment back he does not agree with my comment on the trail park hikes having an addendum to make sure the park is not liable for the hikers’ actions-
Otis educated us before on certain rights that the English elite were assigning to themselves by making laws to benefit the few until the public at large revolted and by such action gained access to areas previously denied to public but allowed to royalty.
We have come upon a similar situation here at Yarnell and I see this in many western states. There is a tax to hike on lands now and beside that we are seeing State Owned taxpayer financed property being limited to a few. Too many old timers do not know they can and will be heavily fined, even incarcerated if they do not pay a $20 fee to exercise what should be their free right to hike on State and Federal Lands. It is the law and you damn cookie cutter fools that create such laws ought to be sent to Watts in LA for continuing to infringe upon what George Washington and our founding fathers would have anyone enforcing such laws for outright thievery.
I now understand that the trail so many are creating upon completion will be limited to only a few. Well hell you do not really have to hike that trail since there is plenty room on either side. So let the few so called elite have their trail.
One thing I did notice they are taking it right up the route we escaped the fire. It is ironic to say the least–but only seasoned hikers and physically fit persons ought try that. Locals who have lost homes say they have a better chance of winning a lawsuit by injury due to the trail than they do on the debacle that cost their homes.
As Joy mentioned, Morgan Lowe and his camera man Shaun (hope that is spelled right) were the only ones to be able to take that route up with us–coming down is not as bad as that steep climb through the boulders. Morgan was an old ranch boy and Shaun was in good condition. I offered to help carry that heavy camera but Shaun declined. I think it was worth ten grand so he did not want to risk rough handling.
I told Joy they are honoring the two surviving hikers by following their exact escape trail. Too bad Marsh and Steed did not have the foresight or some of those copter pilots that flew closely over our heads might have done well to tell the GMHS bosses of a safe way out since they had to see us below coming down that route.
Those co odinates WTKTT posted from somewhere would have put the start of the fire east of the Weaver Range–no way. But Joy said there were many strikes that day ==Yet the latitude was close except the fire we saw seemed to be west of the two track a short distance and about where Joy will post a photo.
Today was a long hike–we added at least five miles of rough and steep hike so Joy could get photos of the trail. Then we took the Weaver range paralleling all the GMHS route. It is usually a 16 mile hike but this one ran about 21. Worse part was coming off where I thought the GPS was leading. Joys sorry snake boots are about worn out and her ankles with them so we were decidedly coming down like a pair of turtles through the bluffs and boulders near that old gold mine about three quarters of the way up the tallest part of the Weavers and roughest as well. However we did manage to come down near the Shrine Area.
That back fire lit in that area has a steep canyon going SW from just a couple hundred yards above the Shrine. When that wind went SW it went up a densely brushed canyon there at a 20-30 percent slope, If that wind was 45mph and we saw the trees bending in that video-add to it that slope and natural chimney in that steep canyon and our good wild land fire fighters could give us an approximation of how quickly it went toward the Helms and the GMHS just above there. No one has addressed that and it is of great importance to understanding how the GMHS wound up being caught in that dense canyon. I do think when they lighted up with the drip torches we saw used that back burn above the Shrine the wind would have been when the wind was headed more to the NE, but that reversal and because bosses that did not listen to the weather man or in the chaos forgot that the wind changes kill too many wild land fire fighters screwed that one up by allowing a back burn in that area. There are a couple photos that we have looked at showing two smoke stacks in the Shrine area. We showed those to Dr. Ted Putnam and he did not comment but thought they were interesting. He did entertain the possibility that two different smoke stacks some distance apart could mean two different fire edges but wanted more photos from other angles.
Again I looked at the area that the GMHS cut line–twenty men did about two hundred yards of line off the two track and then were hindered by boulders. I say the dense brush and the fire coming down from where we saw the fire smoke on Friday held them back as well. Where they stopped was about where the dense brush began. It was like what they tangled themselves in when they dropped off toward the Helms.
If you want to know the truth, that trail they are making is a joke. None of the elderly will be able to take it and few of the abled bodied will want to. If the state bought a right to go through the Shrine area there is a road easily taken and now well improved that would get people to the area. I suspect the only reason they are limiting the public and even fire fighting professionals to the area is because they do not want people to understand how badly the GMHS bosses screwed up in breaking all their wild land fire fighting rules. They intend to make Marsh and Steed clean heroes despite their stupid decisions that led 17 men to their deaths. It is a travesty to keep painting people in golden colors and hiding the truth that is so important to understand in safety procedures that will save future firefighters. Many here have said that the good old boys running the show rather paint themselves as having done no wrong rather than tell the truth of the real mess they made of this historic fire that killed so many, yet had the safety rules and caution been taken now lives would be lost. No homes either if local fire departments had done their job.
You wonder how can a civilian say these things? Hell cowboy McKinsey early morning warned the GMHS not to get caught in that manzanita brush. But Joy and I were at the very spot on that two track where they descended. There was no way this old mountain boy was going down there because we were looking at the very same fire works they were observing. That fire was a goner and it did not take a fire fighter to know it. It did not take a fire fighter to know if that wind changed that fire would come back in a rapid rage up through that dense manzanita and up that canyon and slope. There was absolutely no option to drop off in that canyon and was against all sensible thought to do so–especially if you were risking the lives of so many.
To his credit I do think Marsh ran back to try to help save his men. Those fellows put their faith in those flimsy fire blankets when they had ample time to get into the boulders for a football sized clear area. Another thing had I been there and why I stayed near boulder areas when we descended the other side. Follow the trail they are making if you have that kind of Stamina and you will see that fact–it is a perfect trail of the route we escaped.
I have learned much from the many (more than 50) professionals we have hiked. Those wild land fire fighters and smoke jumpers know their safety. They are all aghast at how their sensible safe rules called the ten and eighteen were broken by the GMHS. These people want answers–most are retired bosses, smoke jumpers and they want to know how such foolish actions were taken. So do a concerned tax payers that have seen 19 lives snuffed out while millions have been squandered here when this fire should have been treated as a high emergency.
If you read Morrison and Wooten’s report on this fire you will understand how these manzanita fires such as the one we had in Yarnell give off the energy of a Hiroshima nuclear bomb every 15 minutes. These PhD’s do nothing but study wild fires and this is from some University in Washington. Those fellows wrote a report kept in the Yarnell library that every young fire fighter and old can learn from. I learned a hell of a lot being a civilian.
So I made that rough hike today. Not long ago I had three heart attacks and one last summer in Montana. Six heart stints, and Joy was asked to pull the plug on me at the Yavapai Regional Hospital, Prescott. She did but did it her way and I lived. Maybe payback since I stopped her from dropping off the two track where the GMHS did. She like the GMHS thought there was plenty of time but I can tell you that, Yes she might have made it since I departed a little better than an hour before running away from the fire, not toward it. But then you have not been with Joy going down hill. She is the slowest worse than a turtle. Her ankles are bad and if you remember her and Brent Steuer took 33 minutes to get just to the fence (we were with ADOSH so legal) where I was there in 20 and the marathon runner 22. That was without the brush when the surface looked like the moon after the fire. Bret was injured in a fall and Joy as well but also her ankles. Now she goes good on level and up hill so that is not a derogatory remark but true. Can you imagine the time it would have taken 18 men to battle brush and steep going to get to where they died. If Joy and Bret were injured, surely a few of them had fallen and who knows how injuries could have slowed them not to mention brush a bear couldn’t get through.
I do hope this producer of No Exit gets hold of this site and the retired and experienced wild land fire fighters to get their professional take on this catastrophy. I hope they get hold of Dr. Ted Putnam, one of the world’s foremost wild land fire death investigators with more than 15 years smoke jumping experience to back him up. He has been to the site more than once and taught me a lot about situations like that. We have Gary Olsen, Bob Powers, RTS, Woodsman, and so many others here that are experienced and some retired from the world of wild land fire fighting that ought to be consulted. They have studied this fire, some from the very beginning. There are civilians with input that is valued–People like WTKTT and Marti have been studying this from the beginning.
Dan Frehole says he wants the truth out about this fire. Lets hope so and if he does he will be consulting some of the persons on this site and letting those producers know how badly this thing was managed.
Will it happen that the truth comes out? Like Gary and others here I won’t be holding my breath. Too many big shots want to cover their asses. I think some of them even believe their own lies.
I did a test run today. Wanted to see if I would survive after 6 heart stints. I did but damn it is hard going up and Joy had me bested most of the time. These heart attacks take the wind out of you. The doctors did give me a walker but I never used it and eventhough I did use those Wal Mart electric buggies for a few times, I divorced my self from those within a couple weeks. The Weaver Range is still a beautiful hike and none of the times we have hiked with people into the area have either of us regretted it.
Joy is so straight forward with people. A local lady and husband were going around house to house seeing what they could write down so they could turn people into the county. One elderly lady here in a secluded part of Yarnell had her dog off the noose and so these people got county involved. It cost the lady $1400 for having that dog off the leash. Well I got turned in by this lady because I had three chickens off the leash. These people being of cookie cutter California types think there duty in life is to go around finding situations that will cost their neighbors by so many county regulations that even a lawyer does not know them all.
Well the county lady in her pretty white pick up came looking for the chickens. But Joy looked up the law and in unincorporated areas such as Glen Isla you can have up to 8 chickens. Well I do have two guinees as well but there is no law on those yet. She found in Tucson you can have up to 24 per acre. So my chickens aren’t confiscated and I still get a few fresh eggs. What does this have to do with the Yarnell Fire. Sometimes people and their restrictions get downright ridiculous.
>> On March 4, 2016 at 11:04 pm, Charile ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> I did a test run today.
>>
>> Today was a long hike–we added at least five miles of rough and steep
>> hike so Joy could get photos of the trail. Then we took the Weaver range
>> paralleling all the GMHS route.
>>
>> It is usually a 16 mile hike but this one ran about 21.
>>
>> Wanted to see if I would survive after 6 heart stints.
>>
>> I did…but these heart attacks take the wind out of you.
Cinnte praghas níos lú.
( Translation: “Absolutely priceless” ).
OTIS SAID-
Joy/Sonny – what actors would you like to portray you in the movie?
a long time ago Gary stated “Meryl Streep” for me- I thought it was comical—with my tummy and glands and lymphatic as swolllllllen as they are I say this actor:
since this is a fictional character in a possible fictional movie—how about Stay Puft Marshmallow from Ghostbusters plays me or another ficitional character (since I am popping fresh) Poppin’ Fresh Pillsbury Doughboy for he has my giggle down right slight giggle “tee hee” and if doughboy plays me than maybe a nice person that represents me like Pippi- http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/8f/15/db/8f15dba6a2bf0f9696bf1bb8a33e10c0.jpg
The director already knows us and where we live—if he wants a true account—he will show up—
Otis,
Thanks for the article and links.
I reread Sean Flynn’s ‘No Exit’ story.
I was amazed how accurate it really was, with occasional and divergent histrionics and glorification verbiage for drama and such.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 3, 2016 at 7:54 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Regarding the time and distance from their deadly Deployment Zone
>> to the safety of the BSR, it was just short of 580 yards or 0,33 miles.
Correct.
The only thing I might ‘nit pick’ is a discrepancy of a mere 60 yards.
It can’t just be an “as the bird flies” measurement because of the way the terrain was. The only ‘level ground’ running path from where they deployed to the perimeter fence of the BSR was pretty much the same path that ended up being ‘bulldozed’ the night after the tragedy so they could drive the bodies out.
If I follow that path in Google Earth ( which wound its way between those two rockpiles/mounds just to the west of the BSR )… I get an additional 60 yards from the exact center of the deployment site to the perimeter fence of of the Boulder Springs Ranch. As in…
0.36 mile(s) / 640 yards / 1,920 feet
However… that being said… if we are talking about men who might have been ‘running for their lives’… there was an even SHORTER path that what you quoted that would have probably saved them.
At this distance ( heading EAST ) from the deployment site…
0.25 mile(s) / 443 yards / 1,330 feet
…they would have then already ‘cleared’ the rock formations that formed the south ‘wall’ of the box canyon and, rather than even head into the Boulder Springs Ranch, they would have now had a clear shot at heading due SOUTH through that ‘draw’ that is there ( and now directly AWAY from the advancing fireline ) and into the ‘Candy Cane Lane’ area… and on to safety in that direction.
That’s how Joy and Sonny eventually exited the same area that day.
They headed for the ‘Candy Cane Lane’ area then around to the outskirts of Glen Ilah.
So yes… I FULLY AGREE with you.
There is every reason to believe here that the TIME they actually WASTED trying to improve a ‘deployment site’ that they should have KNOWN was not going to be survivable… is the very TIME they needed to have a chance at staying alive that day and there have always been “Lessons to Learn” here.
And as long as we’re revisting “the TIME they wasted that might have saved their lives”… I still can’t believe that they did not appear to be in any HURRY ( at all ) for that ‘first leg’ of this ‘risky move’ from the ‘safe black’ down to the ‘Descent Point’.
I mean… think about it.
There is definitely believable evidence that Jesse Steed DID have that ‘argument’ with Marsh about even attempting this move… and even Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini says that Brendan McDonough said ( by way of Darrell Willis ) that the reason they were having that argument is because Steed thought the move was (quote) “dangerous”, but when Marsh put Steeds job and career on the table by ORDERING him to do it anyway… Steed chose job security over safety.
But even then… there is no evidence that they ‘gaggled up’ and ‘headed out’ any faster than they normally would for any old regular ‘hike’.
There is also no evidence that there were then doing ‘double time’… or were in any kind of HURRY for that first leg of the journey down to the ‘Descent Point’.
It boggles the mind.
Steed might have been rejecting the move because he KNEW it was ‘dangerous’ and ‘risky’… given the weather conditions, fuel conditions, and the proximity of the fire… but even when he lost the argument he had those men just ‘walking along’ at their regular hiking pace like there it was ‘just another day’ and ‘just another move’, and that there was absolutely NOTHING to be concerned about?
It still defies all logic… and all common sense.
Even just the few minutes they LOST on that first leg of the trip by NOT doing ‘double time’ or even anything faster than their normal pace might have been the few minutes they would soon have needed to stay alive that afternoon.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Sixty (60) percent of the American population can RUN a mile in under 9:00 minutes.
Correct… and THESE GUYS were supposed to be ‘way above average’ in the physical ability department.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So, if I have my math correct, the GMHS could have RUN that
>> 0.33 miles (> spending the feckless 2 to 3 minutes attempting to cut with chainsaws
>> a worthless and deadly DEPLOYMENT ZONE.
Correct.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Or as you’ve stated before: If Marsh had enough time to go from the
>> relative safety of the BSR out into the brush to the GMHS as they were
>> cutting their worthless DEPLOYMENT ZONE, then the GMHS had
>> sufficient time to travel to the relative safety of the BSR and survive.
Correct… but with that same caveat I mentioned before.
We still do not KNOW, for sure, where Marsh was when the shit started to hit the fan… or if Marsh was ever far enough out ahead of them that he really did make it all way to the BSR.
But the “Theory of Relativity” would still have been fully operational, even in that God-forsaken place in Arizona.
WHEREVER Marsh was when Steed supposedly radioed “We’re not going to make it”… then there was the same amount of time on the clock for them to have RUN to wherever Marsh already was as there was for Marsh to run BACKWARDS to THEM. No question.
The only additional consideration I would add to that would be that since Marsh WAS already ‘out ahead of them’ and somewhere to the EAST and closer to safety… that means Marsh had that slight edge of familiarity of the ‘ground’ that lie between them and where he was.
Marsh probably would have also had his OWN ‘pink flagging’ to follow BACK to where they were… whereas Steed and the Crew had probably already ‘lost’ that ‘pink flagging’ trail and that may have been they reason they got so ‘bogged down’ out there in the first place.
A “Drop packs and run” would have been a scary, crazy, wild run for them… no question… but Darrell Willis himself would be quoted at the deployment site just 23 days after they all burned to death saying… “Normal people can’t move well through this kind of terrain… but Hotshots can”.
They might have ‘made it’… if they had only had the good sense to TRY.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> According to the IRPG, the size of the Safety Zone needed that day
>> would have been anywhere from 12 to 52 acres depending on the
>> flame heights. I believe they were using their experience on the
>> “Nevada Fire’ where they had to quickly fire out a Safety Zone around
>> themselves. Following their habit of Bad Decisions With Prior Good
>> Outcomes, ‘it all worked out in the end’ they said during their
>> Squad Boss interviews.
Correct. The candidate in that job interview for GM ‘Squad Boss’ that even mentioned the Nevada incident was actually answering the interview question of “What is an example of good leadership on your part?”.
He really DID think that it showed he was a ‘good leader’ because he was able to ‘keep his head’ and ‘everything turned out OK in the end’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> There is NO f**king way to cut a 12 to 52 acre Safety Zone by hand
>> using chainsaws. Pure hero bullshit for the media!
Nope. Not a chance in hell.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You NEVER build Safety Zones by hand. You end up with Deployment
>> Zones as did the GMHS. You use DRIP TORCHES or BULLDOZERS.
>> You NEVER have enough time and then what do you do with all the
>> cut slash you generate?
I hate to bring this up… but I’ve been studying the deployment site photos pretty carefully and I really AM going to post a ‘through the looking glass’ video that shows EXACTLY where the bodies were on the ground that day… but here is what the existing evidence already seems to show.
Even in the SAIR diagram of how the bodies were laid out… there has always been this strange GAP in the deployment ‘groupings’.
Almost like they laid down in TWO groups, separated by about 10 to 12 feet.
Well… if you ‘overlay’ the YCSO Police Waldock site photos onto Google Earth satellite imagery taken just a couple of months before the tragedy… there is an explanation.
There was this ‘island’ of vegetation there in the middle of the clearing they had chosen to ‘improve’. Mostly scrub oak trees.
Three chainsaws were found in almost a parallell line only about 20 feet in front of where the bodies were eventually found, and that ‘line’ pretty much represented the ‘windward’ side of the deployment area and the place where 3 sawyers were ‘working’ right up until the last possible moment.
It is likely that the ‘swampers’, at that time, were clearing the cut brush from that ‘windward’ side of the deployment area and just THROWING it somewhere to the ‘leeward’ side, at the BACK of the area they were clearing.
Well… they seemed to have forgotten about that ‘island’ of vegetation in the middle of the deployment area while they were doing all this, and thought they would ‘save that’ until they were done enlarging the area,
or something.
They ran out of time.
The reason there is that ‘GAP’ between the two groupings of bodies is because when it came time to lay down… they realized how small the area really was and they retreated almost to the BACK of the area, and where that ‘island’ of vegetation still was ( and probably most of the cut/slash they had been throwing back there as well ).
Because of that ‘uncleared island’ of vegetation remaining there at the BACK of the area… there wasn’t ROOM for them all to lay down in one, tight compact group.
They had to basically ‘split’ into two smaller groups, and lay down on either SIDE of the vegetation they just didn’t have time to clear.
The space was so tight that THREE of them ( Carter, Ashcraft and Percin ) had to actually lay down pretty much UNDER a 5-6 foot scrub oak tree ( whose burned remains are still there at the deployment site ) and their bodies were basically found UNDER that ‘burned tree’.
When SAIT investigator Gonzalez was sent to the site on July 3, his task was to measure the ‘square’ that encompassed the area where all the bodies had been found. His measurements would become the 24 foot by 30 foot ‘square’ that would then appear in the SAIR, along with the diagram of how all the bodies were laid out at the deployment site.
Gonzalez actually USED the burned trunk of that ‘scrub oak’ tree that 3 of the bodies were found UNDER for one of his ‘anchor points’ for his tape measure and representing one corner of the ‘square’ he was measuring.
You can SEE him doing this ( with his tape measure on the ground ) in the ‘Gonzalez Site Visit’ folder in the SAIT ‘Photos and Video’ folder up in the InvestigativeMEDIA Dropbox.
And since they ended up ‘retreating’ to basically the BACK of the area they were clearing for the actual deployment… then they put themselves even closer to all that ‘slash fuel’ that they had probably been throwing back there. That probably did nothing but INCREASE the ‘conflagration’ right NEAR them when that whole area ‘lit up’.
Anyway… a picture is worth a thousand words. Let me finish this ‘through the looking glass’ video of EXACTLY where the bodies ended up and you will see exactly what I am probably not explaining with words very well.
Or… I guess you could just sign up for the ‘Staff Ride’.
This is all going to be ‘covered’ when they reach the deployment site, right?
Followup…
Here is a direct link to that “Gonzales Site Visit Photos’ folder up in the SAIT Dropbox…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAeNU_v58BFLDOJX-YQtS4Oa/Photos%20and%20Video/Gonzales%20Site%20Visit%20Photos?dl=0
In the first TWO rows of photos… you see him ‘measuring’ the ground with his tape measure.
What he is actually doing there is coming up with that ’24 foot by 30 foot’ square that encompassed ALL of the deployed shelters and would eventually appear in the SAIR as the ‘outline’ surrounding their diagram of the way all the bodies were found.
You will also see him using that 5-6 foot burned ‘scrub oak’ tree trunk as one of the ‘anchors’ for his tape measure.
THREE of the bodies ( Carter, Ashcraft and Percin ) were bascially found UNDERNEATH that 5-6 foot scrub oak tree.
The other little ‘sticks’ you see poking out of the ground amidst the scattered debris still remaining at the site on the day these photos were taken ( July 3, 2013 ) represent the remnants of some of the smaller ‘scrub oaks’ that were there in that small ‘island of vegetation that they didn’t have time to clear… and ended up having to basically ‘deploy around’ when they absolutely ran out of time.
That small ‘island’ of scrub oaks and other vegetation ( some AGAVE, some cactus ) is the reason why there is that obvious GAP between the 2 ‘groups’ of bodies as shown by the SAIT itself in their own diagram of how the bodies were found.
WTKTT,
Check out the Holloway Fire Shelter Deployment Investigation photos on the cover and page 26 for comparison to the YH Fire.
I am told that the Holloway Fire was the ‘Nevada Fire’ discussed during the Squad Boss interviews.
The IM site will NOT allow the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned site link for the 2012 Holloway Fire to post.
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Holloway Entrapment (2012)
Incident Date: 8/12/2012
State: Oregon
Date: 08/12/2012
Incident Type: Entrapment
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=8f633e1d-b8ad-4e34-9d6a-5d1c2bd4f1b5
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on March 3, 2016 at 10:44 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Check out the Holloway Fire Shelter Deployment
>> Investigation photos
>> on the cover and page 26 for comparison to the YH Fire.
There are 3 documents there ( at the link above )…
Holloway_Fire_Accident_Investigation.pdf ( 5.16 megabytes )
Holloway_Entrapment_72_Hr.pdf ( 72 kilobytes )
Holloway_Entrapment_24_Hr.pdf ( 67 kilobytes )
In the 5.16 megabyte PDF file…
Cover page photo: Eerie similarity to Yarnell Deployment site.
Page 26 photos: Ditto.
So if I’m catching the point you are making… YES… these kinds of photos can be VERY deceiving. The whole area ‘burned over’… but no death. Not even really bad burns, actually.
That could give other firefighters who *think* they are in a similar situation a totally false sense of security about what is ‘survivable’.
And here we see yet another WFF who ‘deployed’ WITHOUT throwing her pack away. It ended up leaning against her right side while she was in the shelter and so they are attributing her ‘left side’ contact with the fire shelter ( and the resulting ‘conductive heat’ ) the cause of her injuries.
———————————————————-
Firefighter A Injuries
The burn injuries the firefighter received were on her left side while deployed inside the shelter. Since the fireline pack was on her right side, much of the left side of her body was pressed against the fire shelter. Heat transfers more easily due to conduction.
1 inch blister
on left elbow
¾ inch blister on lower left leg
¾ inch blister on left torso
————————————————————–
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I am told that the Holloway Fire was the ‘Nevada Fire’ discussed
>> during the Squad Boss interviews.
I’m not following you there. This ‘Holloway’ thing was in Oregon, yes?
WTKTT,
Thank you for providing the Holloway Fire link. I tried about 4 times to no avail.
The Holloway Fire was BOTH in Nevada AND Oregon, however, the GMHS referred to it as the ‘Nevada Fire.’
The HS Supts. that were on that fire, including the GMHS, were amazed the female Zuni HS ‘filler’ had survived considering that she deployed in the brush and had direct flame contact on her fire shelter. She had become separated from the Crew and got disoriented, so ended up deploying her fire shelter.
You will notice that the brush on the cover photo is very similar in height and density to what was present in the YH fire bowl where they deployed and died. This is a permissible inference.
The brush on the Holloway Fire obviously did NOT burn as intensely as the brush on the YH Fire on 30 June 2013, however, the fuels is very similar nonetheless.
The HS Supts. commented that she should have been more seriously burned and/or dead considering the circumstances.
My point was that MAYBE, just maybe, this Holloway Fire (‘Nevada Fire’) influenced Steed and the GMHS that a fire shelter worked in a similar fuel type in NV and OR, so it may work in a similar fuel type in AZ, following their usual Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes logic.
And stress really matters at this stage.
And at this point in time, under extreme stress, Human Factors researcher Daniel Goleman and others determined that people will revert to what they are most familiar with because their brains cannot process new information.
http://www.danielgoleman.info/on-stress/
“When we’re under stress, the brain secretes hormones like cortisol and adrenaline that in the best scenario mobilize us to handle a short-term emergency, but in the worse-case create an ongoing hazard for performance. Attention narrows to focus on the cause of the stress, not the task at hand; OUR MEMORY RESHUFFLES TO PROMOTE THOUGHTS MOST RELEVANT TO WHAT;S STRESSING US, AND WE FALL BACK ON OVERLEARNED HABITS.”
So, it’s likely that he/they decided to desperately and foolishly attempt to build a Deployment Zone instead of hauling ass and run to the relative safety of the BSR.
**
** DAN SULLIVAN WAS THE ONE WHO TOLD PAUL MUSSER
** THAT THERE HAD BEEN A DEPLOYMENT
This actually relates to the discussion that was going on below about ‘dead spots’… and the testimony from Paul Musser that once he was at the Ranch House Restaurant, he discovered that he was now in the ‘shadow’ of the Arizona State Forestry REPEATER up on that mountain EAST of the RHR… and he was then having trouble transmitting over the Arizona Forestry standard ‘Command’ channel that was in-use that day in Yarnell.
Just BEFORE Musser testified to that in his ADOSH interview… he actually told ADOSH that it was the elusive Dan Sullivan who was the one who informed him ( in person ) that Granite Mountain had ‘deployed’.
Just to review…
Dan Sullivan is the ‘Air Support’ person who works out of the Prescott National Forest Air Dispatch Center located at the Prescott Airport.
Dan Sullivan somehow became some kind of ‘replacement’ for Bob Ortlund, who was part of the ‘Air Support’ team that Roy Hall THOUGHT he had ordered up the night before… but the other ‘Air Support’ person for the ‘Short’ team, Brad Zettler, told ADOSH that Bob Ortlund never showed up that day.
And ‘Type 2 Short Team Incident Commander’ Roy Hall never even knew it.
When asked by ADOSH who his ‘Air Support’ people were on June 30, 2013, Roy Hall was still under the impression that they were Bob Ortlund and Brad Zettler. Even then, some months after the tragedy, Roy Hall seemed unaware that Bob Ortlund never even showed up that day… and that SOMEONE ( not Roy? ) had asked PNF employee Dan Sullivan to come to Yarnell and ‘fill in’ for the missing Ortlund.
Dan Sullivan DID end up with an actual ‘Resource Order’ ( Number O-30 ) in the official documentation. It says SOMEONE ordered up Dan Sullivan at 9:34 AM Arizona Time on the MORNING of Sunday, June 30, 2013. He was ‘ordered up’ as an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ).
The first evidence that Dan Sullivan had ‘arrived’ in Yarnell comes from Brad Zettler’s Unit Log where he recalls Sullivan showing up around 11:30 AM and pitching in to help him try and find a valid Helibase location that Sunday.
But even with that official ‘Resource Order’ being placed at 9:30 AM on Sunday… IC Roy Hall apparently remained totally unaware of that order and still thought his two ‘Air Support’ people all day were Bob Ortlund and Brad Zettler. IC Roy Hall seemed unaware that ‘Dan Sullivan’ was ever even there in Yarnell that day and ‘working for him’.
Dan Sullivan is now also the person who has been POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED by Yarnell citizen Bryan Smith as the one who actually ‘rescued’ him and his 84 year old cousin Pearl Moore in Glen Ilah, and NOT Gary Cordes, as was claimed by an article in AZCENTRAL.
( Pearl Moore has since passed on. Rest in Peace ).
Bryan Smith has identified Dan Sullivan as his actual ‘rescuer’ ( and NOT Gary Cordes ) via a visual identification of both photos of Sullivan himself AND photos of Sullivan’s Prescott National Forest all-aquamarine 4-door suburban-style truck, as seen in multiple videos of the memorial procession for the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
NOTE: This ‘rescue’ of Bryan Smith and Peal Moore is one of the two rescues for which Gary Cordes was given ( and he accepted ) the Arizona Wildfire Academy’s 2013 ‘Firefighter of the Year’ award… but Bryan Smith himself has now verified he was rescued by Dan Sullivan… and NOT Gary Cordes.
And there is now even MORE ‘evidence’ that Dan Sullivan was in the exact right place, at the exact right time, to have been the one who ‘rescued’ Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore that day ( and NOT Gary Cordes ).
From OPS2 Paul Musser’s one-and-only ADOSH interview on 8/16/2013..
At this point in the interview, Musser is describing what he was doing and what was happening as everyone was evacuating from the Youth Camp out at the end of Shrine Road… and the moment he ( Musser ) EXITED from Shrine Road and drove EAST out to Highway 89.
This ‘section’ continues on to the point where Musser made it down to the Ranch House Restaurant, started organizing things there, and THAT is when he realized they were right underneath the Arizona State Forestry REPEATER tower up on the hill EAST of Yarnell… and that being in the ‘shadow’ of that repeater was causing some communication issues such as being UNABLE to TRANSMIT on the established AZF ‘Command Channel’…
Q2 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Paul Musser, OPS2 at the Yarnell Fire on June 30, 2013
—————————————————————————————
1720 A: Or getting close to it. Uh, we started getting everybody out that was, uh,
1721 complete. Um, then I was told that at – by now there was only two or three of
1722 us in there. I was told that the last – that, that was the last engine and that –
1723 and the person walking in front of it was the last person. And that everybody
1724 was complete and everything was done. Uh, I waited for that person to get
1725 into the truck. When they pulled up and got right behind me, then I drove out
1726 to Highway 89. And that engine followed me out to Highway 89. I pulled
1727 across 89, parked sideways so that I could see the progression. And at that
1728 point is when I heard very excited call on air to ground. Um, I was unable to
1729 determine what that conversation was or who it was with. Um…
1730
1731 Q2: But it was, uh – the tone of voice or…
1732
1733 A: Yeah, you could – it – it – definitely in distress.
1734
1735 Q2: There were some issues?
1736
1737 A: Yes. Uh, shortly after that, within a minute or two or thereabouts, Dan
1738 Sullivan pulled up on the opposite side of the road and he said Granite
1739 Mountain, uh, they deployed. I’m going what? Who deployed? And he goes
1740 Granite Mountain Hotshots just deployed. Dan is working in the air ops so he
1741 was probably only listening to air to ground.
1742
1743 Q2: Uh-huh.
1744
1745 A: And not to all of the tactical channels.
1746
1747 Q2: Right.
1748
1749 A: He said they’ve just deployed their shelters. And he says the helicopters are
1750 trying to find them. Uh, at that point, I watched one of the mediums circle
1751 around over Shrine and head directly into the column of smoke. Luckily he
1752 turned around and got back out very quickly.
1753
1754 Q2: Yeah.
1755
1756 A: Um, I called Roy. I said, uh, we’ve had a shelter deployment at this time.
1757 Granite Mountain Hotshots, I have no further information. And so he was
1758 notified. Um, all of the re- most of the resources were either – were on 89.
1759 Went to the Ranch House Restaurant. Uh, started gathering resources. And
1760 staging people. Um, Todd pulled up, I assigned him as Granite Mountain IC,
1761 incident within an incident. He took that. They start – we started pulling –
1762 getting a group, uh – a couple of UTV’s ready to be able to access the fire area
1763 to look for, as a search. Found all other UTV’s and stuff that were available.
1764 Started pulling the ALS and BLS equipment off the engines. Get the
1765 paramedics and setting up, uh, rescue groups and stuff. Todd took that. Uh, I
1766 remained as operations. Gary Cordes, they had talked about assigning him
1767 into one of the – one of the transport groups, but I pulled him back. Uh, and
1768 he became the structure protection group. I stayed as operations made – made
1769 notifications to air attack. Um, I- ICP, a few others. At that point we realized
1770 there was a problem. When you got to Highway 89 on the south side you were
1771 in the shadow from the repeater and at that – and then you were unable to
1772 transmit on the command channel from that – from that location. We hadn’t
1773 had any problem the rest of the fire.
1774
1775 Q2: Prior – prior to that point.
1776
1777 A: It’s just when you get the quarter mile underneath the repeater that we had the
1778 problem. Uh, continued to make all notifications. Um, talked – made sure
1779 that we didn’t get anybody else – have anybody else become part of the
1780 incident.
—————————————————————————————
So here is the part where we find out that the elusive ‘Dan Sullivan’ was the one that actually informed OPS2 Paul Musser there had been a deployment…
Musser said: “That engine followed me out to Highway 89. I pulled across 89, parked sideways so that I could see the progression.”
So Musser did NOT head straight down to the Ranch House Restaurant. He just reached the point where Shrine Road intersects with Highway 89, pulled ACROSS the Highway ( to the northbound side ), and parked ‘sideways’ there so he could see who else was exiting Shrine Road.
The TIME is now 4:39 PM.
Musser said: “And at that point is when I heard very excited call on air to ground. Um, I was unable to determine what that conversation was or who it was with, (but)… it – it – definitely in distress.”
So Musser now recalls hearing at least part of the psuedo-MAYDAY calls on the Air-To-Ground channel… but not enough to understand WHO was making the calls… or what the problem was.
Musser said: “Uh, shortly after that, within a minute or two or thereabouts, Dan Sullivan pulled up on the opposite side of the road and he said Granite Mountain, uh, they deployed. I’m going what? Who deployed? And he goes Granite Mountain Hotshots just deployed. Dan is working in the air ops so he was probably only listening to air to ground… and not to all of the tactical channels. He said they’ve just deployed their shelters. And he says the helicopters are trying to find them.”
NOTICE that Musser says Dan Sullivan ‘pulled up’ on the ‘opposite side of the the road’. That means Sullivan was heading SOUTH ( and only now going towards the Ranch House Restaurant ) when he spotted Paul Musser there on the other side of Highway 89 and stopped to inform Musser there had been a deployment.
At that point… ( it is now about 4:43 PM ) Dan Sullivan and Paul Musser apparently proceeded down to the Ranch House Restaurant TOGETHER ( each in their own vehicle ).
So that places Dan Sullivan ARRIVING at the Ranch House Restaurant in the exact right timeframe ( 4:45 PM ish ) for him to then have become part of the “getting citizens out” rescue effort that was about to take place down in Glen Ilah.
Dan Sullivan might have proceeded into Glen Ilah on his own after arriving at the Ranch House Restaurant… OR he might have gone into Glen Ilah along WITH Gary Cordes… but either way… this testimony of Paul Musser’s is now just more evidence that he WAS in a position to make the ‘rescue’ of Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore just as Bryan Smith says he did.
And that means we now have even more evidence that the elusive Dan Sullivan was ‘right in the thick of things’ when the deployment was taking place, and that he is the one who actually informed OPS2 Paul Musser about it…
…but just like his fellow Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ( who were also right in the ‘thick of things’ that afternoon )… Dan Sullivan was never even interviewed by the SAIT investigators… OR by ADOSH.
I don’t want to play the facade of Charlie and Angel so I awaited moderation and here I made it-
I am Joy A. Collura
and proud to be me even if I am nobody…even though you Sonny have a perception much different-
last night typing a facade of sweet nothings for the world to see on here about me—wish they could of peaked in to what you really think and were saying/doing last night from midnight to 4:11am when I was in alot of pain vs. what you dish out as horseshit—what you wrote here doesn’t match up at all to the reality –in person, folks.
No matter— you can call the SAIT folks out with ease—now I see why—you typed for the world to see some narrative vs. reality- The reality is… folks, Sonny has not been my hiking pal for a long bit— and due to his health I was up there but he seems to get angry that I got him out of the hospital restraints and back to independence because he was much happier in that DEAD mode he was in vs. having to feel the daily in and out pains of losing his son so abruptly and loving and living the outdoors to not have a wife who likes it too. He can hike all day in the mountains to TRY and find number seven but reality is this man is aces and top notch the majority of the time but when that Hyde kicks in—I run and hide.
Now.
a few whiskey, huh…more like a few too many—
this is one of those time I never can figure out WILL THIS SCREW UP an upcoming hike as a team?
Well, Sonny?
Are you gonna be on that hike and is that all a go because I have some people that were on the fire that were going to meet up on that hike or after it to go over some missing elements. I feel you should let certain people know is the hike on? I found my landowner written permission slips so I’m good- I am going tomorrow—and nothing STATE can say because I can skirt through private sections to see what is going on with their memorial trail from another ridge view and it is 100% legal.
the area I wanted to take is very very very steep so Sonny is coming along…YEAH! I use to love going walking alone but having someone who is so in tune with the terrain like him—feel like this is gonna be good—ohhhhhh—small world, tomorrow and next day I am helping that lady I told you all about where her husband of almost 70 years died right before the fire and she went to CA to handle that all and when in CA her entire life long belongings gone and her hubby all in same month and she was down in Congress asking around for yard help and always everyone points to FREE LABOR me so after hike go check out project and crack it out- What a neat woman. She told me she really enjoyed my letter and she wished she could say she was here in a sense when the fire happened but she had just been doing all the funeral stuff for her husband. I also learned from her Steve Steinfelt watched the entire YHF from a nearby boulder so I can go confirm what he saw because he is by Sesame Street. She said he wept as it approached he knew- So if I remember right didnt you talk to him Sonny already? when he was on the roof?
wwtktt-
question- people in Congress keep talking on my walks and hikes that this 40 car and buses parking lot will be done by anniversary and the trail will be open to CERTAIN POINT –TO ALL– but not certain spots of the 320 acres- that remains off limits.
Again people like Croudcroft LLC and Bob Nuth with NuHart LLC- investors living in another state have overgrowth and no proper signage for no trespassing so folks who want to legally see the trail and not do the STEEP trail which can be dangerous in areas can skim through this open land of no signage—I really cannot believe after the PTSD that ACRI has after the YHF that the Memorial Board built this trail next to his land….wow….so anyone knows maps—take the old Cloudcroft Lone Ocotillo Trail straight on up—Morgan Loew and Patrick know this way…I want to try both the steep area and the one I am describing. Looks like memorial trail is on state 800-25-057 but again wow that they did not aim more towards state land 800-25-001e areas on other side of ridge so ACRI who has ptsd from this event has to have this trail as his neighbor- if you go to assessor and layer the map you can see all the HUGE contracting equipment he lost in fire. I have to crash. Sonny will stop by in morning and get me. Good night. Oh yeah my question is where is the parking lot suppose to be?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 3, 2016 at 9:15 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> wwtktt-
>> question- where is the parking lot supposed to be?
Apparently… right there where the trail ‘begins’ off of Highway 89.
The following was posted down below in this Chapter and bringing it up here since it shows the actual conversation that took place about this ‘parking lot’ at the May 29, 2015 meeting of the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.
It does not say SPECIFICALLY where it’s supposed to be. ADOT ( Arizona Department of Transportation ) was supposedly working with ASP ( Arizona State Parks ) to ‘figure that out’… but it would be pointless to put it somewhere other than where this hiking trail is being built.
According to some of the ‘minutes’ from some of the meetings of this PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ that actually HAVE been ‘released’ ( in accordance with Arizona Open Meeting LAWS )… they are supposed to actually end up with 40 ( FORTY ) ‘parking stalls’ there where the trail ‘begins’ off Hwy 89.
I really doubt they could get this done by June 30, 2016.
Looks like it would take a lot of BLASTING to even get near making room for 40 ( FORTY ) parking spaces.
From the minutes of their May 29, 2015 meeting…
————————————————————
2. Discussion and Report of the Access Subcommittee.
Chief Ben Palm presented this item with use of a PowerPoint presentation (see information posted at http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html ).
Mr. Ream stated that ADOT is working with ASP to determine and locate a parking lot and access off of Arizona State Highway 89.
Mr. Jeff Whitney ( Ariziona State Forester ) asked how many parking stalls are planned for the parking lot.
Mr. Ream responded that 40 stalls and ADOT is conducting a feasibility study.
Chief Willis asked if ADOT will be constructing the trail.
Chairman Black stated that she has requested cooperation from ADOT, as well as State Land Department. Chairman Black also stated that ADOT has been eager to assist and will be present at the July 31, 2015 meeting to provide more detailed information.
————————————————————
we are on as well with the one we plan to hike if you are reading this-
new day.
+test. 123
**
** ACE POSTS ITS OWN PHOTOS OF YARNELL TRAIL PROGRESS
Just after we started talking about it the other day, down below… the ‘American Conservation Experience’ ( ACE ) organization officially ‘announced’ their involvement with the Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park ‘hiking trail’ on their OWN official website.
The ‘news’ came in the form of a post on their own official BLOG…
http://www.usaconservation.org/community/blog/
Included in this BLOG post are some of the best PICTURES yet of what the trail looks like so far… and the best information yet about what lies ahead.
—————————————————————————————-
The American Conservation Experience ( ACE )
ACE Blog
Article Title: Trail building – Yarnell, AZ
Published: 01 Mar 2016 by ACEr
( PHOTOGRAPH inserted )
On January 27th, ACE crews began work on a precipitous hillside just outside of Yarnell, Arizona, to build a trail that upon completion will stretch 2.5 miles across the rocky landscape. The project is huge in scope—3 crews of 8 members will be working diligently alongside numerous crew leaders, staff members, and state parks employees for the next few months to complete their goal. However, there is another aspect of the project that gives it much greater significance. The 320-acre swath of land that includes the trail will soon become the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park, to commemorate the 19 hotshot firefighters who lost their lives while battling the 800-acre Yarnell Hill fire on the morning of June 30th, 2013.
( PHOTOGRAPH inserted )
The trail initially traverses a very steep slope, and once crossing the ridge, descends into a boulder field with an overlook that will allow visitors to view the fatality site. They will also be able to descend further into the actual area where the firefighters lost their lives. The rocky and harsh landscape means that the building of the trail is highly technical, and crews are using a variety of hand tools, power tools, and griphoist rigging equipment to eradicate large rocks from the path of the trail and build sturdy, safe staircases to make the ascension easier for hikers. This is a big undertaking, but ACE has tackled many large-scale projects in challenging environments with tight timeframes. However, the Yarnell trail is unique because of its emotional factor. “Every project in ACE matters, but we’re not just approaching this one from a conservation point of view like we normally do,” explained Project Field Coordinator Jack McMullin. “It also has this heavy human aspect. The community has been so supportive of our work. We visited a museum last hitch because we were rained out of work one day, and speaking to the people who worked there about the fire and the work we are doing was a really amazing experience. One man who talked to us was almost in tears. It’s that emotional.”
( PHOTOGRAPH inserted )
On Wednesday the 17th, crews were nearing completion of the first .42-mile section of the trail up to the ridgeline. “Once we cross the ridgeline, it’s boulder city. There are massive rocks everywhere. It’s going to be awesome, and so technical. The way the trail is situated is great, because this first half mile has given everyone time to get used to rock work and get some practice in, and then once we get over the hill they’ll have to really put their skills to the test,” said McMullen.
( PHOTOGRAPH inserted )
When creating trails, ACE strives to make sustainable routes that provide a corridor for the public to safely enjoy the beauty of nature, in turn protecting the landscape itself. “We’re still focusing on those goals with this project,” Trails Coordinator Mark Loseth affirmed, “and we’ve done bigger projects than this logistically. But the product of our work here will be a dedication to the 19 men who lost their lives in the Yarnell Hill Fire. So when you think about it in that respect, it’s the biggest project that I’ve undertaken with ACE.”
ACE will continue to cover the Yarnell project until its completion. Stay tuned for more upcoming blog posts!
( PHOTOGRAPH inserted )
—————————————————————————————-
There is a little bit of ‘misinformation’ in this ACE website article.
Apparently… someone at ACE is a little confused about WHERE they are working.
The article said…
“The 320-acre swath of land that includes the trail will soon become the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park, to commemorate the 19 hotshot firefighters who lost their lives while battling the 800-acre Yarnell Hill fire on the morning of June 30th, 2013.”
That is not true.
The ‘trail’ they are building that leads TO the ‘320 acre’ Arizona State Park is actually on land that is still owned by the Arizona State Trust Lands Department.
The only part of the trail that will actually be ON the ‘320 acre’ State Park will be that part that is up on the high-ridge two-track… and (perhaps?) the trail that will lead DOWN from there to the deployment site.
The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is still in violation of Arizona Open Meetings laws and has still NOT published the minutes of their last PUBLIC meeting which took place more than FOUR months ago… so we still have no idea if they really do intend to have the State Park include any kind of ‘hiking trail’ down from the high-ridge two-track to the deployment site itself… or EXACTLY which parts of this new PUBLIC State Park will actually be ‘off linits’ to the PUBLIC ( who have paid for the park itself ).
The closest we have come to knowing what the actual FINALIZED ‘access policy’ will be for this new PUBLIC State Park comes from the minutes of the next-to-last meeting of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.
That’s the meeting where Amanda Marsh (supposedly) made her verbal presentation back to the Board about this ‘informal polling’ of the family members she was supposed to do and ask them what THEY ( family members ) thought the new State Park access ‘rules’ should be.
There is no detail whatsoever in these minutes about anything that Amanda Marsh might have reported back to them about that.
The next thing we see in the minutes is that the Board is now deciding to VOTE on whether there should be some form of ‘restricted access’ imposed onto this new Arizona State Park.
There were only 10 members of the ‘Board’ present to even vote… and the results of the VOTE was 8 to 2 in FAVOR of establishing some kind of ‘restricted access’.
Ironically… the ONLY two members of the board to vote AGAINST having any kind of ‘restricted access’ policies were the only two Wildland Firefighting representatives on this PUBLIC Board.
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney.
Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
They were only ones who thought having any kind of ‘restricted access’ to this new PUBLIC State Park was a ‘bad idea’… but the ‘family members’ got their way instead.
The next thing we see in those minutes is the Board ALSO voting to CHANGE the current design for the memorial to reflect this new decision to have some form of ‘restricted access’. The designers were supposed to now go back and REDO the design to achieve that ‘restricted access’.
There was also then some ‘discussion’ recorded in the minutes about whether or not the Board should spend some money to actually make sure there was any kind of established ‘hiking trail’ down FROM the high-ridge track to the deployment site area.
But there didn’t seem to be any final ‘decision’ about that codified in the minutes of that meeting. The consensus seemed to be that there probably SHOULD be a way for people to hike down to at least get NEAR the deployment area… without having to do their own BUSHWHACK as that dense vegetation in that fuel-filled blind box canyon continues to restore itself… but it looks like they ‘punted’ that actual decision off to the NEXT meeting of the Board.
And that ‘next meeting’ ( FOUR months ago ) is still the one where the Board remains in violation of Arizona Law by not publishing the ‘minutes’ for it.
So we really still don’t KNOW if the best the PUBLIC might be able to do when ‘visiting’ this PUBLIC park is to reach the high-ridge two-track after hiking their brains out up from Highway 89… look down in the bowl and say…
“Oh look… honey… down there. See all those little white crosses? That must be where they were working when the big bad fire came and killed them.”
Correction… I actually missed this ‘quote’ from whoever this ‘ACEr’ person is that just wrote that BLOG post on the ‘American Conservation Experience’ website…
—————————————————-
The trail initially traverses a very steep slope, and once crossing the ridge, descends into a boulder field with an overlook that will allow visitors to view the fatality site. They will also be able to descend further into the actual area where the firefighters lost their lives.
—————————————————-
Key sentence…
“They ( the PUBLIC? ) will ALSO be able to descend further into the actual area where the firefighters lost their lives.”
So even though WE can’t see the minutes of the last ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ meeting… apparently they DID make a final decision to at least allow the PUBLIC to get NEAR the area of the deployment site.
The quote above is coming from the guys/gals tasked with building the trail so even if that ‘Board’ is still afraid to publicly release their ‘finalized’ acces policy for the upcoming State Park… someone seems to have told ACE what trails needs to be made.
It still remains unclear, though, what “descend further into the actual area” REALLY means.
How MUCH further?
Reply to Bob Powers post on February 29, 2016 at 8:44 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> We all have believed that the Crew Net could Transmit and Receive.
>> Transmits on TAC were possible to the Restaurant as a line of site
>> along with Crew Net.
>>
>> Why did no one call back on TAC 1 or 5???????
>>
>> I go Back one more time to The Ten Standard Orders.
>>
>> #6 Be Alert, Keep Calm Think Clearly, Act Decisively.
>> #8 Give clear instructions and make sure they are understood.
>> #7 Maintain Prompt Communications with your Forces,
>> Your Supervisor and Adjoining Forces
>>
>> When you violate 8 of the 10 standard Orders you normally do not live to talk about it.
>> Within those 10 were the LCES.
>> You lose 1 or more of LCES you are now in deep shit. NOBODY KNEW IT.
>>
>> The Fire overran them very fast from the time they saw it to deployment but
>> Marsh had time 2 or 3 min. to have given better location and a drop coordination
>> location.
Yes. He did. So did Jesse Steed… but by the time there is any indication at all these men were in trouble… a lot of time and planning and action had been taking place.
Before there was any contact with John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’… Steed and the crew had already done all of the following things…
1. Realized they were in deep shit.
2. Considered their escape options.
3. DECIDED to deploy their shelters right their on the floor of the box canyon.
4. Searched for ( and found ) what they felt was the only possible deployment site.
5. Started clearing the area as best they could.
We still don’t know how much actual TIME that amounts to… but since we hear those chainsaws running in the background on even that fires psuedo-MAYDAY call from Steed at 4:39 PM… one can only assume all the things listed above had already taken place.
Yes… they had a ‘lot to do’… but is that really the simple explanation WHY it took so long for them to notify even ‘Air Attack’ of their predicament?
Even in his final transmission… Eric Marsh SHOULD have given a more precise indication of their location… so that anyone who even MIGHT have survived the initial burnover would have been able to get medical attention in less than the TWO HOURS it ended up taking everyone else to finally locate them.
He didn’t. All he did was ‘confirm’ Burfiend’s ‘guess’ that they were ( somewhere ) on the ‘south side’ of the fire.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Based on time we can say Marsh was very close or with them before deployment.
Correct. If Marsh had not ALREADY run back west to ‘join’ them before we hear Steed’s first call to John Burfiend that they were in ‘deep shit’… then he ( Marsh ) could have only been a maximum of about 2 minutes and 30 seconds running time away from them at 4:39 PM.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Had they even Talked to BR or air or OPS and discussed their plan and
>> location they could have diverted this whole move before it started.
According to the evidence record… Eric Marsh had ALREADY decided to “scout ahead” to the Boulder Springs Ranch, and was ALREADY doing that when he had that conversation with OPS1 Todd Abel at 3:50 PM ( as captured in the Robert Caldwell video ).
All we hear Marsh telling his OPS1 supervisor is “I’m workin’ my way off the top”.
That is also the time/moment when OPS1 Abel told Marsh to “hunker and be safe”.
We still do NOT know what Marsh’s actual response to that ‘command’ from Abel.
OPS1 Todd Abel still wants us to beleive that even though he absolutely identified his own voice when presented with that 3:50 PM recording… but that he does not recall the conversation or what was said.
And that was very shortly after the incident itself… yet he still says he doesn’t
even recall having that conversation. That’s still pretty hard to believe.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Panic—- and what Freq. to talk on with a specific amount of information
>> would have helped.
>>
>> Just one big fucking mess caused by Marsh and Steed
>> with no Plan No Communications.
>>
>> Air had no time and no chance to even help, buy the time of fire in front
>> of them the smoke had to be laying over their position. to set up and make
>> a drop run you need to first know where the crew is and not be dropping
>> blind thru smoke. The wind would have blown the drop all over the place.
>> Plus the time to set up the drop by then it was all over for the crew.
There is yet another piece of direct testimony that adds to the scenario here that it wasn’t until they ( Steed and the Crew ) dropped into the fuel-filled blind box canyon that they discovered they could then ONLY communicate over the Air-To-Ground channel.
A little late to even find that out ( or realize it was going to happen )… but such was the string of errors that kept happening that day and would lead to this unnecessary tragedy.
It is in the direct ( written ) testimony coming from DPS Officer Eric Tarr ( badge number 5569 ), who would eventually be the first person to arrive at the deployment site and confirm the fatalities…
————————————————————————————–
EMERGENCY RADIO TRAFFIC
Around 1630 hours ( 4:30 PM ) I was standing near the aircraft ( Helicopter Ranger 58 ) monitoring traffic on channel A/G 16 ( Air to Ground channel 16 ) when I heard a voice come up on the radio with a Call sign of Granite Mountain 7.
He advised on the radio that they were moving towards Yarnell in the black.
A short time later he came back up on the radio advising they were heading to a ranch they had in sight.
It was shortly after that Granite Mountain 7 came back up on the radio sounding excited, out of breath, and repeatedly clearing Air Attack with no response.
Someone then came on the radio and told Granite Mountain 7 to stand by, ( I do not remember the exact verbage ). Right after that another voice came on the radio advising the unit yelling into the radio to go ahead with their traffic.
Granite Mountain 7 advised their escape route had been cut off and the were deploying their shelters.
I heard numerous attempts by Air Attack trying to contact Granite Mountain 7 after this with no response.
————————————————————————————–
So right there is what seems to be an ACCURATE recollection of the radio traffic that took place just BEFORE… and DURING the emergency… and on what CHANNEL he heard it ( A2G ).
We have always been able to be sure that Eric Tarr really did hear something coming from Granite Mountain 7 over the A2G channel about “heading to a ranch”, because THAT is the statement he recalled when he was in the air in Ranger 58 and searching for the men… and the statement that made them even think to ‘fly a route’ towards the BSR… which then led to them finding the deployed shelters.
If we take Eric Tarr’s report as accurate ( including his approximate time of 4:30 PM ), that means that it was Jesse Steed or one of the squad bosses purposely sending ‘informational’ messages up to ‘Air Attack’, rather than OPS, up to 9 minutes BEFORE we would then hear the first psuedo MAYDAY call from Steed.
So why else would they be sending these ‘informational’ messages up to a very busy Air Attack unless they had already discovered they weren’t able to get through to anyone else, at that time?
By the way… this ‘informational message’ from either Steed or a squad boss that DPS officer Tarr says he heard circa 4:30 PM…
“He advised on the radio that they were moving towards Yarnell in the black.”
…was a LIE.
There is NO WAY that Steed and the Crew were still anywhere near any ‘black’ circa 4:30 PM.
They had ‘left the black’ a LONG time before that… and they were then only 9 minutes away from making frantic calls to Air Attack WHILE they were then cutting out a deployment site with their chainsaws.
Besides.. .the other ‘informational message’ that DPS Officer Tarr reports coming from Steed or a sqad boss circa 4:30 PM also said…
“A short time later he came back up on the radio advising they were heading to a ranch they had in sight.”
That is just more proof that the previous ‘informational message’ was a LIE.
If they could now SEE the “Boulder Springs Ranch” and “had it in sight”… then they were NOT “in the black” or “moving towards Yarnell in the black”.
Just more proof that even if Marsh or Steed or a squad boss WAS trying to inform someone ( anyone? ) where they were… they were still ( for some reason ) trying to give them the FALSE impression that they were “moving in the black”.
I am damn sure missing Marti. This lady had contributed so much.
Sometimes we want to denigrate people because they are not dyed in the wool firefighters. Definitely those wild land fire fighters and smoke jumpers are the heroes being the first on the line to try to ameliorate the effects of a wild land fire. Even if they fucked up as the GMHS bossed did, we will count them as heroes. The intentions were good, the actions were ignorant and stupid by their superiors thus they died a horrific death. But it takes people like Marti and WTKTT to look at the fine details of the deception we were fed. These are people who are not wild land fire fighters but who pay the taxes and study the details with a finesse that few have. If you discard their thoughts and their valued opinions then you dismiss the millions of dollars the tax payer invests to make sure that wild land fire fighters survive and know how to survive. Their unbiased opinions are very important to this world of wild land fire fighting. The millions of tax dollars are secondary to the lives of young heroes wrongly directed so they are now dead. But Marti, WTKTT, Joy and other civilians that are sticklers to understand the truth are heroes that we want history to never forget.
To deny their history in investigating this tragic event can not be justified. These civilians suffer this tragedy as much as any wild land fire fighter. If there is any God involvement it will be in the remembrance of these people that have freely dedicated so much time of their lives in sorting out the lies of accommodation to expose the reality of the crime that killed 17 young wild land fire fighters.
I had a few Irish whiskeys and thinking about JD. Who the hell can take a 16 mile hike in shower tongs. JD did this but me being a mountain man could not understand that. Well JC could since I did drag a 83 pound cross from Prescott Valley up to Prescott, some ten miles up hill. Nearly got arrested for that one. But I think I might meet JD in heaven since I smile at anyone walking that distance in sandals for 16 boulder miles and rough country. Is it not strange that JD follows JC? I think Willis ought to get the story straight with JD.
I am one of the few people that would think JD follows JC. Joy’s initials are JC so Amanda, Joanna Dodder and others know–Joy Collura=JC. But about JD, he is a man after the truth as was JC. and Joy Collura. It is maybe to you an incidental thing. But me, Sonny, an old miner, second a cow boy and then a logger and even a bone a fied educated idiot with a sister who also was a Salutatorian despite living in a tent and studying by candlelight, we give accolades to JD following JC by alphabet and intelligence.,
The importance of life–know what is and if it is true.
Sonny,
I agree with the importance of those not in the business to take a look at things with independent eyes. I say bring it on. WTKTT is in another league altogether as an analyst. Anyone can come up with a valuable piece of the puzzle and help discover the truth.
Woodsman
wildland firefighter
sore back
Woodsman, how great a man you are–when we can recognize what you did means your mind is free. Something few have these days.
Thinking about JD wearing shower shoes though treacherous terrain. boulders, pointed sticks that could impale him like viet nam traps, and cacti that wanted to kill his feet, this man is top notch. I would ride the river with him anytime, I smile at his bravery. Sonny
16 miles JD did this, so Sonny still contemplates that feet.
Feet or feat? JD
You are one of the most important people on this site. Us Irish do not back down when we know the facts. You are number one in my book right or wrong but what I see is 99.9 per cent right. Thank you for coming in so much and being concerned from the civilian angle–your genius reminds me of my son who did die for no good reason. Thank you many times over for the defense and truth of the reasons for the deaths of 17 young fellows, even younger than my son, who did die for stupid acts.
I was saying this to WTKTT–a genius in his understanding and formulating the truth.
WTKTT,
Regarding the time and distance from their deadly Deployment Zone to the safety of the BSR, it was just short of 580 yards or 0,33 miles. Sixty (60) percent of the American population can RUN a mile in under 9:00 minutes.
So, if I have my math correct, the GMHS could have RUN that 0.33 miles (< 580 yards) to the BSR in 3:07 minutes RATHER THAN spending the feckless 2 to 3 minutes attempting to cut with chainsaws a worthless and deadly DEPLOYMENT ZONE.
Or as you've stated before: If Marsh had enough time to go from the relative safety of the BSR out into the brush to the GMHS as they were cutting their worthless DEPLOYMENT ZONE, then the GMHS had sufficient time to travel to the relative safety of the BSR and survive.
According to the IRPG, the size of the Safety Zone needed that day would have been anywhere from 12 to 52 acres depending on the flame heights. I believe they were using their experience on the "Nevada Fire' where they had to quickly fire out a Safety Zone around themselves. Following their habit of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes, 'it all worked out in the end' they said during their Squad Boss interviews.
There is NO f**king way to cut a 12 to 52 acre Safety Zone by hand using chainsaws. Pure hero bullshit for the media!
You NEVER build Safety Zones by hand. You end up with Deployment Zones as did the GMHS. You use DRIP TORCHES or BULLDOZERS. You NEVER have enough time and then what do you do with all the cut slash you generate?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 3, 2016 at 7:54 pm
RTS… I AGREE with everything you just said.
Only thing I could nit-pick would be a possible discrepancy of only
about 60 yards or so.
I responded up above with a new parent comment… and some new information about what appears to have actually ‘gone down’ out at the deployment site…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-327375
WTKTT,
Thanks for the details and correction on distance.
In the grand scheme of things at this point in time, sixty (60) yards is kind ‘mouse nuts’ in my view, even though one of the Prineville HS died within a similar distance, and short of a safe area, on the 1994 South Canyon Fire.
Photos of the BSR reveal much more open and clear with much less brush the closer you get to the structures. This is typical of most rural residences.
We are trained to use the lee-side of structures as ‘heat sinks’ and to seek those areas as a Temporary Refuge Area (TRA) until the fire pulses.
It’s very likely that IF they would have RUN to the BSR, that they likely would have had to deploy fire shelters due to the intense convective and radiant heat and SOME of them MAY have gotten burns. However, MOST if not all of them would have survived.
They spent to much f**king time ‘Discussing Our Options’ on the GMHS Crew Net that TIME ultimately made the decision for them. They ran out of time and went anyway without reassessing the dangers.
Very similar to the South Canyon and 30-Mile Fires with the now infamous ‘LUNCH SPOT’ where time virtually stood still for them during their respite. They failed to reevaluate their Situational Awareness and fatally dove right into their original plan of leaving ‘the black’ at the worst possible time.
If I recall, Gary Cordes in his ASDOSH interview, was incredulous that they had deployed firer shelters, saying something to the effect of “THEY HAD PLENTY OF TIME.”
And he ordered TFLD(t) Esquibel to (paraphrasing) ‘take two Engines and meet the GMHS coming down to make sure they get out of their safely.’
Good info, RTS,
I agree with everything you are saying. This part is an area I’d like to explore (I realize that you are just the messenger)
“If I recall, Gary Cordes in his ASDOSH interview, was incredulous that they had deployed firer shelters, saying something to the effect of “THEY HAD PLENTY OF TIME.”
And he ordered TFLD(t) Esquibel to (paraphrasing) ‘take two Engines and meet the GMHS coming down to make sure they get out of their safely.’”
Why did it take so freaking long to locate GM? Almost 2 HOURS before locating the crew for possible medical aid. So not only do you have a member of overhead that had an idea of how much time GM needed, you have a member of overhead that had a very good idea of where they should be located – jumping out at the BSR. But no one had any idea of where they were, their ultimate destination, or where they should be for rescue? The evidence shows that to be bs.
Woodsman
Thanks RTS for the information of 12-52 acres needed for a safety zone. I suppose a survival zone is a completely different idea here. When the Atom Bomb dropped in Hiroshima those directly exposed were incenerated. But a few seemed unscathed if behind a sufficient barrier. Of course there were fall out effects similar to what we have seen after the 200,000 plus retardant drop here that gives us a count now of 84 deaths from 645 at Yarnell since the fire.
Office: (928) 226-6960 ACE
they are stationed there off 89 until May 2016 to build the memorial trail.
I believe these volunteers and all the hard work of moving boulders and building this trail DESERVE recognition. A lot of work put into it.
Reply to Charlie post on February 29, 2016 at 5:16 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> Office: (928) 226-6960 ACE
>>
>> they are stationed there off 89 until May 2016 to build the memorial trail.
>>
>> I believe these volunteers and all the hard work of moving boulders and
>> building this trail DESERVE recognition. A lot of work put into it.
Yes… and according to one of the volunteers ( Jason Hamburger )… there are places that are so steep that the ‘trail’ cannot be just ‘mineral earth’ alone… they are having to build STAIRS out of whatever rock they can find nearby.
ACE stands for “American Conservation Experience”.
It is a 501(C) Not-For-Profit group with ‘offices’ all over the country… including one in Flagstaff, Arizona.
Some of these ACE vounteers working on the Yarnell Hill Memorial Trail have already been ‘blogging’ about it on their own PUBLIC blogsites.
Jason Hamburger – PUBLIC BLOG
Blog post title: Yarnell Memorial Trail: The Beginning
Published: Tuesday, February 23, 2016
http://jasonhamburgerinthedesert.blogspot.com/
NOTE: This BLOG post contains a lot of ‘pictures’ of the work that has already been done on ‘the trail’, including some of the ‘stair work’ that Jason talks about.
ALSO NOTE: Even this volunteer believes the Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed WHILE they were trying to (quote) “Contain the fire”.
From that public BLOG post…
—————————————————————————–
June 28th, 2013: Lightning ignites a wildfire near Yarnell, Arizona. Two days later nineteen firefighters from the city of Prescott were overrun and killed attempting to contain the fire. The Yarnell Hill fire proved to be the deadliest wildfire the state of Arizona had ever experienced and the greatest loss of firefighters in the line of duty this country had seen since September 11th.
Now, nearly three years after the incident, the American Conservation Experience is helping to build a memorial trail to commemorate the Granite Mountain Hotshots who lost their lives that day. The trail itself is going to be the memorial with commemorative plaques for each member of the crew placed throughout the walk which leads to the site where the firefighters were trapped and eventually killed.
For this project ACE sent a total of three crews, roughly eight people each, to work on the trail at the same time. The crew that I was assigned to is the crew that will be doing most of the rock work for the project (at least in the beginning). This means we’ll be building steps and retaining walls where the trail is too steep to be made only of dirt. This first hitch involved a lot of training both in general trail building and rock work for our crew specifically.
The first staircase we built consisted of four steps, three anchors, a keystone, and a capstone. The steps’ functions are pretty self explanatory, those are the ones you step on. The anchors are there to keep the staircase in its place. Some staircases have anchors running along both sides but for these steps we were able to use the hillside to anchor our steps on one side. The keystone goes at the bottom of the staircase and usually gets completely covered in dirt so you don’t know it’s there once it’s in place. Its purpose is to keep the steps from sliding forward by acting as a sort of front anchor. The capstone is the stone that secures the keystone to the anchors. The two pictures above show the staircase with just one step plus anchors, keystone, and capstone (left) and the staircase once it was finished (right). The whole thing took about four days for myself and two others to complete it. It was tough work both mentally and physically but we learned a ton along the way. I love how tangible the results are with this kind of work. That staircase isn’t going anywhere for a hundred years and we could see our progress right in front of us as we worked.
As I suspected, the sights were quite beautiful for this project. The sunrise and sunset painted the entire sky blazing yellows, reds, and oranges. Especially when there was light cloud cover. The low dessert is its own interesting and unique ecosystem full of every type of prickly thing you can imagine. Every night we fall asleep to the sound of javelinas and coyotes barking and yelping in the distance. Looking in any direction you see shrubby desert in the foreground and hazy, blue mountains in the distance. My friend from California tells me that the haze is actually smog from Phoenix but even so I think it completes the scene quite nicely. It gives the mountains a mystical sort of fuzziness. I see the milky way every night before I go to bed (often accompanied by a handful of shooting starts) and Jupiter and Venus are there every morning when I wake up. All in all it’s quite a beautiful place to work/live in if I do say so myself.
I will be working on this project for the next few months. Hopefully our end date will be when the trail is finished but that entirely depends on how fast we can work. Either way you can expect to see a lot more pictures of desert and steps because that will be my life until mid April. As always thanks for reading. Catch’a next time!
—————————————————————————–
“Thanks for the link above WTKTT. I did leave a comment for them since we know of how many rattlesnakes were let loose in the area along with at least 3 pythons. Snakeman, Tommy Maidison is in an ash box now at the Veterans Cemetary at Prescott, AZ. Oddly, we also located the grave of Henry Gilligan, my father and 15 year old machine gunner from WW1 only a few yards from the holders that house cremated vets. Snakeman Tommy was a prolific snake hunter and kept many running loose in his home. Joy can tell some hair raising stories about her visits–including seeing a black rattler right above her head while she was sitting on a commode in his bathroom.
Oddly years after his death from cancer and just after the Yarnell fire, we had been evicted from our apartment due to our handing out help items provided by United Way. We; therefore, for about 6 months were camping out near where the volunteers are now camping, south of Glen Isla about three miles and on the flats just below the Weaver Range. Near that camp we caught a huge python crossing in front of our game camera about 2am in the morning. Amazed, I tried to trail him the next morning but lost it among the boulders in the area. I would have never believed Pythons could live in the desert, but have no other explanation since we have the actual photos from that camp out time. That snake was as big around as a small log and long as well. A jack rabbit would have been a small meal for that fellow.
The neighbor is having his land surveyed- and the man’s son fought on that Yarnell fire and stated it was a lot of chaos and mismanagement and the kid came from the Prescott area so not all are cronies. Survey company doing work next door is NEXUS–good men to talk to if your land in the area needs surveying.
http://www.yellowsheet.net/index.html
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 2, 2016 at 3:47 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> http://www.yellowsheet.net/index.html
Thank you, Sonny.
Hard to say if they are going to be able to meet the deadline of June 30, 2016 for opening this trail to the PUBLIC. Sounds like there is lot more work to do than anyone on the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board anticipated.
From the link above…
The Yellow Sheet – Yarnell
PO Box 425, Yarnell, AZ 85362
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hot Shot Memorial Trail — Hitch I Progress
Published: March 2, 2016 – by Mark Loseth.
——————————————————————————
Work has begun on the Granite Mountain Hot Shot Memorial Trail.
The American Conservation Experience (ACE) Hitch 1 ran from 27th January – 3rd February, 2016.
There were 3 Trail Crews composed of 24 Corps Members. 1670 hours were worked and 0.4 miles of trail tread constructed. The Project Manager is Mark Loseth and the Site Foreman, Jack McMullin. The project started with two days training provided by ACE trail staff and ACE crew leaders. The training encompassed correct and safe use of rigging equipment, safe and effective rock moving techniques, principles of dry stone masonry, and trail construction techniques. All training was conducted to ensure high quality construction output and safe working practices to meet ACE safety standards.
The crews then proceeded to construct trail. The first step in creating the new trail is to clear the path of loose rocks and vegetation. This allows the crew to see the ground underneath and begin to build the trail.
Then digging starts. In places there is good dirt and trail building is easy, but mostly the ground is full of large rocks that need to be removed to create an 18-24 inch tread. This involved one crew focusing on rock step and structure construction at the start of the trail and the other two crews building trail tread. Trail crews used a Giphoist system with mechanical advantage to remove rocks from the the trail alignment.
The rocks on the lower section of the trail are small compared to the ones that block the way higher up the trail. In many places the crews build rock walls to support the trail edge. By fitting multiple rocks together the crew builds a singe tier wall, which is then covered in mineral soil to provide an outsloped trail surface. The finished surface is 18-24 inches wide and outslopes to allow water to drain freely off the trail surface, thereby reducing erosion and future maintenance needs. A total of 0.4 miles of tread was constructed during work hitch. For more info on ACE: Phone (928) 226-6960 Website: http://www.usaconservation.org
——————————————————————————
OK by June 2, that ought to be June 30 to honor the GMHS.
Here is the thing–we are leaving out the wheel chair people, diabled, the elderly and those like myself with bad hearts that would avoid such a disastrous climb might kill. So to add to the trail and take care of disabled veterans like myself we need some kind of cable tram to haul us up to the top of the Weavers. We could watch the fellows below making the tedious climb up that trail they are making.
By law I think the State and Federal would speak to equal rights to the disabled to be able to see the spot where the worst debacle in American Wild Land Fire Fighting happened. That is history that no one should be denied considering that 19 lives were foolishly sacrificed, all wild land fire fighting rules were broken, and due to the nonchalant attitude of three local city fire departments during the extreme fire danger conditions (worse in 10 year drought period) and the expenditure of millions of tax dollars, not to mention a death roll of now at 83 residents out of 645 at Yarnell due to stress related and having over 200,000 gallons of agent orange looking deadly lung killing retardant dumped on our homes and the immediate area, and half the homes of Yarnell burned to the ground.
Need I say more on that topic? Well there is including the lies we have been fed and the sorry so called investigation with gag orders and redactions to cover the truth so that managers of the fire and other so called important personnel can present themselves in a good light–despite the costs of lives and tax money the smooth over will cost future wild land fire fighters and the tax paying public.
There is even more since this site has some of the finest trained wild land fire fighters, smoke jumpers, firemen, and investigators that do not enjoy the cover up. They are brave enough to stand up to the truth and reveal their feelings–most have no fear of loss of job or threats from the system so can let us know what the situation really in truth entails.
Even today we met a man whose son worked on this very fire. This father told us his son said this was the worst managed fire he has ever been on. See his son can’t talk publicly or his livelihood is jeopardized. He is one among many we have met that are in that predicament yet are not happy with what went down from the asserted lightening strike on Friday afternoon of June 28,2013 until 19 GMHS were sacrificed on June 30, 2013.
If people knew the truth of this debacle they would demand change–first to save wild land fire figher lives, then to save millions in tax payer dollars and the millions in tax payer dollars and more millions in homes and natural resources including wild life and not the least the residual effects of the agent orange fire retardant with 8-16% poisonous chemicals hidden as so called trade secret chemicals.
What the hell are we breathing beside the deadly NH3 gas that exudes off the retardant? It has already killed millions of fish in the Snake river when accidently dumped directly into the river and other rivers as well have had aquatic wild life destroy in the thousands due to this agent orange shit.
What about 83 dead people in Yarnell since the fire. Wh0 cares about those deaths? Eighty three out of 645? Come on now–I have a college education so am not so dumb that I cant see that this close retardant dump had nothing to do with killing the elderly here.
FBI, WHO and EPA have been contacted by more than myself. Where are they in such a disaster? Are we going to be a dumb America who honors the GMHS that erred so badly in their so called fire fighting attempt, yet we fortget the dying elderly in the order of 83 out of 645 since the fire. Many of these elderly include many Veteran heroes and others who pioneered Arizona.
Shame to forget and attempt to pass this tragedy off as an accident or a
God cause. We are not public fools and want these redactions revealed and any gag orders removed.
This tragedy begs for recompense and alterations in wild land fire fighting methods. It begs for accountability. It demands millions in tax money put into better training for wild land fire fighters, better pay for such dangerous work, better equipment, and a thorough study of the effects of the aftermath of the so called inert retardant (no long term studies have been done but how about the short term study of 83 dead at Yarnell?).
Do I seem angry? I am, since I too lost a son who was in the underwater welding profession. Fault was found in the system that hired him and he lost an arm that finally cost his life. So I have a heart for the loss of a young son–nothing in the world can replace him and I even share tears and sadness this very moment at the though of his loss which was way back in August of 1999. So any kind of bull shit as I have witnessed in this debacle needs to be exposed so it is not repeated.
Why the FBI does not investigate (maybe they are) all the redactions, gag orders and lies told about this fire I do not know. It is tragic that they would investigate that terrorist thing where two killed 14. Here we know at least two killed 19 and more are involved due to negligence and careless management.
I have seen the books so far–they play the game that the cadre want. They listen to the smooth and silver tongue talks–yet it behooves us to let them know we want the truth out. There are so many broken hearts, so much loss of life and too many millions in public tax payer funds involved in this tragedy.
We will not forget and unlike the Mann Gulch debacle that long time smoke jumper Dr. Ted Putnam is exposing after 60 years of cover up, we now have communications, internet and sources that do not require the long wait too get to the facts and truth. Thanks to those persevering in doing the right thing.
I sometimes forget to applaud Joy Collura. She has spent countless hours investigating this tragedy. She is nothing short of a genius in uncovering facts and interviewing people about this Yarnell Fire tragedy. Even today I can not take the credit for finding that this Surveyor had a son working the fire. She has been castigated for her work on the fire, but so be it. When you tell the truth know that people with agendas will come at you with fiery darts and do everything to destroy your credibility.
She has had to stand in court and been denied hiking rights to the Weavers just because her truthful revelations have face slapped too many of those yes people that do not want the boat rocked despite the sewage that supports the boat.
I am now about 73 according to Joy–I don’t keep birthdays so do not expect a birth day card from me. Joy is about 44, a good size for the pistol she carries, but when it comes to truth and a person that will confront you if you try to skirt the truth, she would win the top award. She documents with photos and good testimony everything she does. Every damn picky law she obeys and most of those I would say are abominations to constitutional freedoms, yet she is such a stickler that she does not even have a speeding ticket crime. Well that was until Amanda Marsh accused her of wanting 15 minutes of fame and caused her a court situation. Amanda acted like Joy was dangerous. I can tell you the truth is always dangerous to certain people.
Let me tell you a little about Joy. She was a top person helping people after the Yarnell debacle. United Way thought so much of her efforts helping them help people that they had her as an honored speaker before a hundred or so people that worked from Prescott to help those suffering after the Yarnell Fire.
Ered Matthews made a song and a play about the Yarnell Fire Tragedy. He is a hero and spent thousands doing this. He spent a long time in the desert where we were camped after the fire enjoying a night time camp fire and hearing what we had to say being witnesses of the events immediately before the deaths of the 19. His play included much of what we told him but I am first to admit that most of what we recorded and was remembered the day of the tragedy came out because of Joy’s straight forward manner.
When we were at Buckey’s Gambling Joint for some time, we learned that there was going to be a convention that included firefighters from all parts of the country. We had no knowledge of this and Amanda the queen of fire fighters entered. So Jo Anna Dodder warned Joy that Amanda was present eventhough we were there way before her entrance. That meant that Amanda could not enter, but since she was the darling of the GMHS and the world due t0 Eric Marsh’s death, Joy volunteered to leave. But before she left she had learned much from fire fighters and posted that material on this site.
Since, and long before today, we have learned that Eric Marsh number one and Jesse Steed number two are responsible for the deaths of the 17 under them. They made very bad decisions, one a decision to risk 17 young lives, and their roulette charge toward the ranch killed them all against all the common sense rules of 10 and 18 in fire fighting safety. Sonny, now speaking would not risk Joy’s life and took her out a safe way and believe me, we were in the exact spot those experienced fire men dropped down into that tangled, almost impenetrable manzanita brush. So you see, I can not see Amanda’s husband a hero despite all we hear in the media and despite what Amanda wants to happen. The truth is there and certainly hurts many. perhaps her the most. But let it be–we can not change it yet we can learn from it.
So do I think of Joy as a hero in this. I know she is–she has cared for so many elderly, done yard work for so many for free, walked the deserts removing trash where she finds it, and trying to pioneer Arizona with me that I know how tough but how fine and wonderful a person she really is.
I personally have had six wives. I am not a marriage prospect since the wives I have had never could understand the outdoor, tent type living I thought was a common practice. I never married an Indian but might have done well. My first wife was a Mexican despite having a great great grand uncle that died in the Alamo. I never carried the hatred about that war like some Texans have (my Mom) with the Mexicans although I have had a few bar fights with some dis agreeable ones–but a few gringos as well. The kid that died was named Ted “Carlos, but was a straight A student in the Arizona University in Chemical Engineering classes. He questioned me about shit I could not fathom on some of our outings.
But this is about Joy. When we hiked from the DMV in Prescott to Wilhoit she had her trusty pistol hanging off her leg. That was since some Mexicans had attempted to force her into a car when she was hiking along the Wickenburg 93 HWY toward Congress. her abode. Her stong legs and determination saved her. but a 44 would have done better justice. A truth is there are humans that are more animals than animals.
I personally think Joy will go down in history, not like Marsh or Steed, but as a hero to the elderly and most of all to the truth as it really is.
Joy corrected me, my second wife was Mexican. The first cost me 90 days in jail since she said some guy had raped her and I went to settle the issue with him. Well he apologized when he came to visit me at the jail–he hadn’t been hurt but in the end I agreed to stay on the ranch where Charlie Ray shot Frank McCauley off the horse and not return to Silver City, NM. Well luckily Charley shot Frank with a 22 pump he had bought cheaply off a carnival. A 22 short lodged on Franks spine and paralyzed him. Well Charley grabbed him by the hair of the head and loaded him in that old white International Scout and drove Frank to the hospital some 17 miles of dirt road to Lordsburg. Frank survived some 10 years but won the ranch in a law suit. I was in jail that week end so when I went back to the ranch I had no Job. Grace was there, Charlie’s wife, to let me know the events.
I was glad Charlie did not shoot Frank with the 30-06 I had shot a ducks head off with at about 100 yards on the very pond the fight occurred over a bull breaking fence and entering Charlie’s fishing pond. Cattle got stuck in that pond and this old Bull was stuck in the mud so they had to rope him and drag him out with the Scout. Words exchanged were not good and Charlie said Frank had come at Grace with a horse quirk when he shot him out of the scout. Anyway the 30-06 shot was a young cowboy bragging that he could shoot the head off that duck. We were not sure until we drove up to the pond and sure enough the duck was floating there without a head. Charlie had to have that Winchester 30-06 and gave me $135 cash on the spot. I still don’t know how I shot that ducks head off since I could only determine more or less where it was at that distance. Not bragging but I was the third best shot in basic out of 300 with a worn out M-14 that you had to shoot a couple feet to the right to hit a target with.
Diamond Jim McCauley wound up inheriting the ranch and I met him about a year ago down the hill at the Arrowhead Bar. He though I was quite an outlaw in those days. I was living in tents, had been charged with cattle rusling out of that same pond that killed Frank. A cow had drowned there and Charley had given all I wanted of it. Well the hind legs hanging at my tent camp and so called friends that had enjoyed a few steaks off them had imagined I had russled them. After 3 days in jail, Charley came to Lordsburg to inform the Sheriff that he had given me those off that drowned cow. So I was freed.
Those were some of the good old days of my teen years. I cowboyed for the Brock Cattle Company (Charley and Grace Ray) and my Dad and I would work his fluorspar mines on the side.
Later the McCauley I worked for as a dump truck driver in Silver City was accused of killing his partner in fluorspar mining. I never knew if those were the same mines Charley had and never asked Diamond Jim McCauley if that were the case.
Diamond told me he hated ranching and wanted to sell that ranch he inherited. He was asking over a million for it but he is dead now so I do not know who inherited it. Maybe that 29 year old stripper he introduced Joy and I too at the arrowhead last year.
Joy corrected me–he is another casualty since the fire. He was well liked at the arrowhead–but he and I never saw eye to eye very well.
I sometimes think of Gary Olsen at these times. I have so much respect for his abilities and the good things he has done. These are the heroes of our times, not those who needlessly kill themselves as we saw in the Yarnell fire tragic event. These people are who the movie should be about–they survived, and Bob Powers did as well. Where the accolades should be–not to bosses that sacrificed their men for no good reason.
You are on a ROLL tonight…keep em comin’ Sonny! I am going to mine this thread someday and write a book I will never finish with nothin’ but your stories in it. And I am so proud to get honorable mention to boot!
Now Gary O I being of good Irish blood and truthful to heart will tell you that here that you and Bob, RtS are the world’s heros. You guys deserve the accolades–you kept your men alive and safe to go on as they would.
Two things I learned off cowboys
1. Too many coincidences aint a co incidence.
2. You can square a circle:; Ram a 4×4 up a Bulls ass if you don’t believe it.
Marti, damn it an old cowboy, miner and logger (falaer) misses hell out of your thoughts. If anyone deserves accolades it is for the good work you have done on solving the truth so hidden by the so decorated sons of bitches that have portrayed this like a hay ride in heaven. Come back and we love your take–you are not one to put up with lies.
Tonight Joy is in distress. She is bloated and in pain. Why do the good people suffer and die like the 17? I have already died but did not want to come back but here again and about 300 grand later am alive. I should be among the 83 but alive. Hard to kill I guess. This is a careless world, but then what are the answers to change it? Nineteen young lives tell us,
Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 10:33 AM
Tex says
February 15, 2016 at 10:25 am
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
I could not post under Sonny–seems I was hacked or banned somehow, so use my real handle–Tex. The world is strange and this Yarnell Hill Fire adds to the strangeness. Dad liked Tex Ritter and most of the family were born in Texas so I got the name Tex. Some great great grand uncle was killed in the Alamo so the pride of Texas named me Tex even though I should have been named Nevada since I was born there. Dad was mining tungsten out of Austin at that time–and made it to a Fallon hospital, my birth place. Dad had travelled with a band throughout Texas–he was a banjo picker and had multi talent as a musician, as many of the Irish do. But his real heart was in prospecting and mining–something I saw since childhood and was often in the mines with him helping him do the work of a miner since a child as early as nine years of age. Mining and prospecting, like the life of the wild land fighter has its hard work aspects but also is for those who appreciate the wild lands and the healthy life of the outdoorsman. Both occupations speak of survival–and these survivalist shows are laughable compared to the real life of the outdoorsman. If Hollywood really wanted some fine shows it would be about the real wild land fire fighters, smoke jumpers–we hope that this new movie speaks to that truth, rather than a fictitious show as we have seen with the official Yarnell Hill Fire investigation.
Thanks WTKTT that you have given us the true count of fire retardant at 205,714 gallons. I had quoted Kyle Dickman who had stated about 30,000 gallons. It goes to show how sorry his book was researched and adds to the fact it belongs on the Fiction Shelf at the library. Here on this site we have people who do not tolerate the fiction we have been fed about the Yarnell fire and are exposing all these authors, official investigators and others who write their own narritives afar from the truth. But then they are seeking quick money, accolades and notoriety not weighing the damage to the safety of future fire fighters as well as the costs to the public for the ineffective methods and efforts we saw in the Yarnell Fire Catastrophy. This incident demands the truth and as far as I can tell, John Dougherty’s Investigative Media Site is the only one addressing the lies fed to the public about what was an avoidable tragedy.
I will be hiking up to the top of the Weavers again using the exact longitude and latitude on a PN-40 Earthmate Delorme GPS device to locate where the origin of the fire was and to photograph the area and any evidence of a lightening strike that can be found. I will get Joy to help me post anything photographed but she won’t go so people can get a view of what is proposed as point of origin. Seems that was never a big deal to the investigators in this death investigation–something I thought would have been a priority–finding and photographing the exact lightening strike and showing the public photos and evidence of such, especially considering 19 deaths and millions the public tax payer has spent on this fire. Not nick picking–but we better be on such a catastrophy.
I have a psychic visiting and for those who want to know what she says and sees about the fire I will inform you. Some will say for religious reasons they do not want to hear. Well close your eyes and minds to whatever she reports. The lawmen and FBI oftentimes go to Psychics and do not seem to close their minds to anything they thing might give them a different perspective to help solve a crime. The crime is to close your mind to anything except what some fat assed preacher wants you to think. When you open up to all people and hear them out then you have an opportunity to use the few nuts that rattle around in your brain. What she gives will not necessarily be my own opinion, nor perhaps yours. Be that as it may, this is America and we all have a right to our opinions, even if wrong. It takes a WTKTT or Gary Olsen. Bob Powers to help us get the facts straight.
Thanks for allowing me to post here. I am as interested to see this thing through as all on this site. The world has a right to know the truth as to what caused one of the worlds worst wild land fire fighting disasters and what remedies can be made to insure the lives of future wild land fire fighting efforts and how their tax dollars can be spent more efficiently in future wild land fire fighting situations.
I have some fence to build now–more thought on this matter and a good look at those bricks Joy has arranged to form the number 19 at the beginning of our driveway.
Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 12:04 AM
I think one of the amazing things about this fire is that Joy and I were observing the fire right along with the 20 GMHS crew. At that time they were to the north of us about a quarter mile on the two track, next the black. We could see the exact same consuming fire they were observing. We were watching it from the two track at the very place they were to descend some time after we deserted the area.
I don’t know if they timed that fire taking over a mountain but I for sure they were looking at the flames boiling eating up that mountain with flames shooting up 50-100 ft, tornadoes of fire, and Sunami like waves going forward as Joy describes them. Even not being a wild land fire fighter I told Joy that a thousand men would never be able to stop the progress of that fire. It was gone and now a dangerous item to be reconed with. That fire would laugh at Pulaskis, booted wild fire men, and any bear, fireman, firetruck or object that wanted to try to challenge it. The high dropped retardant dumps looked to me to be childs play and feeble attempts to slow a voracious death knoll to anything in its wake.
We all were looking to the northeast and above the fire edge were the ominous dark clouds with lightening bearing down and edging our way. By 11:30 the storm appreared. However there was a calmness in the air except Joy and I had different opinions as to which way to exit the scene. She was in no hurry and wanted to descend just as they did and her way she said was to skirt the canyon but the destination was to be the same.
She too felt that since the fire was obviously headed toward the NE that it would be ok to get lodged into that brush below–that despite me telling her that the wind could reverse at any time and once in that manzanita there would be no outrunning that fire. Here where a storm comes there is almost always a calm, then suddenly winds can come howling in upon you and generally they proceed the storm that is coming your way.
To put it as I saw it there was no way I was going to drop off in that canyon and yet Joy was adamant that her way was the best and shortest route to safety. It was in fact a good hike from the two track on up to the top of Weaver mountains, steep as the canyon they dropped down. But once on top, I could feel enough reverse in the wind that I knew I better go back and get her. There she was with her boots off enjoying the fireworks and I had expended more energy to climb up then back down and would have to make that hot steep climb again–but this time I cursed enough and I suppose she could see my urgency enough that she thought it better to follow this time. She donned her boots and somewhat reluctantly faced the steep incline and we proceed out of there.
Joy could not have understood how frustrating it was to me to have to double back for her, but now I think she realizes her way, would have duplicated what the 19 did.
At that time I never would have believed that anyone would have challenged that fire, flanked it or gotten anywhere near it once it got into the manzanita. In my mind those men would be standing back and letting that Fire Eat. To get entangled in any kind of thick brush as impassable as that manzanita was would be an absolutely stupid act on anyone’s part. However I could see a city boy or girl that had no experience in the hill country play like an idiot and try to get close to the fire to feel its searing effect and perhaps watch its consuming destructiveness up close, but 19 well trained wild land fire fighters–with all they say and knew concerning weather?
The strange thing on this Yarnell fire was you did not need the 10 and 18, and the LCES — but if you had them then you had a way to keep alive on this one. Once I read them and understood what they meant, I said this stuff is common sense, something that people that do not know the danger of wild fire and lack a knowledge of the mountain country can count on to save their lives.
Two men, Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed failed their crew. They put them in eminent danger and the public who has now expended millions on a fire that should have been quenched on a Friday before it got out of hand, needs to know it was no accident. They need to know that the death of these men was no accident and no God send. It was pure and foolish actions that killed the crew. Those factors and facts that led up to this catastrophy, if played off as accidental will only contribute to more deaths, more home destruction, and more millions foolishly spent.
Dr. Ted Putnam told me that often fire retardant does little to stop a wild fire like this one. The Jumbo Jet retardant did slow the fire once it was dropped behind the fire once it was headed to the SW. The wind and fire retardant on the North end of Yarnell kept the fire from backing up so it did save U Stow it and a few houses on that end of town–I think maybe four or five. Mean time the fire went straight through Yarnell and Glen Isla picking and choosing half the homes as it went.
I think the biggest joke of all was seeing firemen receive awards and some kid wild land fire fighter saying the 10 and 18 were Hill Billy and now giving talks on how to fight wild land fires. Job well done wild land fighters at Yarnell. Half the town burned, millions spent on so called putting it out, and now the count of dead is up to 78 out of 645 population of Yarnell since the fire. Your retardant, stress to the elderly, losses and because the three local fire departments would not bother to run up and put a lightening strike out in emergency conditions has left plenty people aghast at your efforts. And some of you have the gall to pat yourselves on the back as though you had done a good job. Shame!
Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 1:56 PM
That was the case here Rocksteady–That fire had blown out of human ability to control on the ground by early Sunday morning–and GMHS were observing it from the black as it did so. Did they consider it dangerous to get themselves entangled in that almost impassable brush? Willis said ordinary people can’t wade through that kind of brush, but hot shots of the likes of GMHS can. Well maybe so, but not at a sensible rate to escape a fire coming up the canyon at them with 45 mph winds jetting it their way.
It does not necessarily take a seasoned fire fighter to see how drastically Roy Hall and his cohorts fucked up at Yarnell. Just take the death count of killed firemen, see how they failed to look at weather charts presented to them that were right in front of their noses, look at the homes lost, millions of tax payer dollars squandered, aftermath of deaths of citizens directly and indirectly related to the damage and off gassing poisons from retardant dumps near residents, and total confusion of the day followed by obvious coverup and awards to the wonderous firefighters that had part in this debacle–even an Ostrich with scorched feathers could properly assess this debacle.
If there is any hope of changing the way things are done as far as fighting fires and saving lives of fire men, then the truth of Yarnell would do it. But these geezers and their cohorts continue to do everything possible to make themselves and their beloved system look good by hiding the facts of this fire debacle that they are such a part of.
You can bet their inept ability at firefighting and the lackadaisical efforts of local fire departments that allowed this thing to balloon into a death trap will all be glossed over by the coming movie called NO EXIT. Yet. if the movie speaks the truth, then shame will come upon the system and changes will be made–the public will demand it if the movie speaks to the truth. Just about every boss that had anything to do with Yarnell would be removed from his position, maybe even prosecuted as they should be for the stupidity the fire bosses had from day one of the lightening strike.
Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 9:52 AM
People that provide the wages for these bumblers have every right to be angered at how this Yarnell fire was handled. They have the power and right to demand change. It only remains for the truth to go public and the liars that keep saying this was an accident or God thing will have to crawl back into their hole and allow the public to demand accountability on the part of those responsible for the fatal debacle called the Yarnell Hill Fire Incident–there will be an accounting for the Yarnell Hill Death Toll.
Reply to Bob Powers post on February 27, 2016 at 11:15 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> We do not know if Marsh even tried to talk on the Tack channel for OPS.
>> That could have well been his first try before Steed or Him went to Air.
Correct.
There is still no (absolute) PROOF that any of them ( Marsh, Steed, Squad bosses or GM Crew ) ever even TRIED to say anything to anyone about their predicament over any regular TAC channel before we hear Jesse Steed frantically calling out to ‘Air Attack’ on the Air-To-Ground channel at 4:39 PM.
But there DOES remain the following ‘testimony’ that it happened…
From PDF page 10 of the SAIT Yarnell Investigation Notes ( YIN )…
Interview with Blue Ridge IHC
Supt: Brian Frisby Foreman: True Brown Squad Boss: Travis Fueller and Cory Ball
Interviewed by Godot, Jay, Jimmie, Tim, Jim, and Mike 07/10/2013
—————————————————————–
Tie in with the crew at the ranch house and hit main rd @ 1640.
They make a turn, and hear yelling on TAC 1. ( TAC ONE ).
A little further they hear yelling on Tac 5 AA and GM7 yelling multiple times.
AA says unit yelling at AA on A/G stop yelling and stand by.
Marsh cuts in and says were cut off there cutting a deployment site, trying to burn around, cutting a deployment site, there is panic in his voice.
Todd ( Abel ) gets on AA and says raise GM on A/G.
Focused on that Trew tries to raise GM on crew.
He hears a keyed mic.
Trew gets a crew member and sits him in GM trucks and says listen for anything on the radio.
1 minute later he hears click click.
—————————————————————–
The references to which radio CHANNELS they were hearing things on are very specific… and if you take the testimony of these Blue Ridge Hotshots as the truth… then here is the scenario they are testifying to…
1. At 1640… they heard YELLING on the TAC 1 channel ( and NOT the A2G channel ).
2. Shortly after that… they hear MORE YELLING, but now it’s on the A2G channel.
3. They also specifically heard Burfiend tell them to ‘stop yelling’ over the A2G channel.
4. They remember hearing the moment when OPS1 Todd Abel had to finally get on the A2G channel himself and ORDER John Burfiend to stop ignoring those men and to ANSWER them.
5. Moments later… Trueheart Brown is trying to talk directly to GM on their ‘Crew Net’. No mention there of HOW Brown was trying to do that… but since they were now already in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot it could have been that he got Brendan McDonough to give him his hanheld to do that… OR… Brown could have
been using any of the radios in any of the four GM vehicles that were now also
parked in the RHR parking lot.
6. When Trueheart Brown DID try to talk directly to them via their ‘Crew Net’ frequency,
he heard an audible ‘keyed mic’, as if someone out there at the deployment site DID
hear him, and was trying to respond.
7. Trueheart Brown stuck another Blue Ridge Hotshot ( still unidentified ) in one of
the GM trucks and 1 minute later… that BR Hotshot hears ‘click click’ over the
GM Crew Net. Possibly another ‘keyed mic’ and someone still alive out at the
deployment site trying to communicate with them over the GM ‘Crew Net’.
All of the descriptions of these same moments that are in the actual Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit logs are all totally REDACTED.
So the only mention of them hearing GM ‘yelling’ over the TAC channel BEFORE they switched to trying to contact Air Attack on the A2G channel remains here in these SAIT interview notes.
But the fact remains that these notes indicate they were SURE that first they heard ‘yelling’ on TAC 1… and only AFTER hearing that did the ‘yelling’ switch over to the ‘A2G’ channel ( which is what we hear ourselves in Aaron Hulburd’s original Helmet Cam video ).
That is not PROOF that is what happened… but until we can see the REDACTED parts of ALL the Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs… it’s all we have to suggest that there WAS ( perhaps ) some attempt on GM’s part to communicate using TAC 1 before switching over to the A2G channel.
And as long as we are ‘revisting’ this issue and asking the following ‘questions’ again…
1. Did anyone with Granite Mountain try to make an emergency call over any TAC channel?
2. If so… did they only then discover they were UNABLE to do that?
…it’s worth revisiting the only account we still have of what ( apparently ) was going down out there at that point in time.
I’m talking about Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini’s account of what Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis told him he heard direct from Brendan McDonough.
There is still absolutely no reason to believe that either Paladini or Willis were ‘making anything up’ and that this ‘account’ is NOT a direct reflection of what Brendan McDonough actually heard over the GM intra-crew radio on the afternoon of Sunday, June 30, 2013.
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell fire: New account of hotshot deaths
Published: 11:49 p.m. MST April 3, 2015
By: Robert Anglen, Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/04/yarnell-fire-new-account-hotshot-deaths/25284535/
————————————————————————————–
Paladini offered the following account of McDonough’s story…
While moving vehicles with the Blue Ridge crew, McDonough allegedly overheard radio traffic between Marsh and Steed, who was with 17 crew members atop a ridge that had burned days earlier.
In the radio call, Marsh told Steed to leave the “black,” which was safe, and join him at the ranch. Steed protested, saying such a move would be dangerous. The radio exchange turned into a dispute.
“My understanding of the argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed … was that Steed did not want to go down,” Paladini said.
According to Paladini’s account, Steed objected until Marsh gave him a direct order to descend.
As the back-and-forth conversation continued, it became apparent that Steed, a U.S. Marine veteran, consented to the command to relocate the team. But he told Marsh he thought it was a bad idea.
During one of the final radio transmissions, according to the account, Steed told Marsh the crew was not going to make it.
“That is what Darrell (Willis) told me,” Paladini said.
Members of the Blue Ridge Hotshot crew, according to Paladini’s account, overheard the radio conversation with McDonough. They have provided statements in the past for official inquiries, but records do not describe the conversation in question.
Asked by phone this week to comment on McDonough’s purported revelations, Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby said, “We’re going to decline.”
Willis declined to verify Paladini’s version of the critical radio conversation, and said he never quoted McDonough as saying that the crew was ordered off the ridge by Marsh. “That was not part of the detail that I knew — that he told me.”
Paladini stood by his account when told that Willis challenged it.
————————————————————————————–
Remember… when asked to ‘comment’ on what Paladin said… Darrell Willis did take ‘exception’… but it was ONLY to one specific part of the story, as being related by Paladini.
Willis ONLY said he did not remember characterizing Marsh’s instructions to Steed to ‘bring them down’ as any kind of actual ORDER.
That was all Willis was ‘disagreeing’ with. According to AZCENTRAL, he never ‘took exception’ to ANY other part of the story even though he had ‘advanced copy’ of what was about to be printed.
Including THIS part…
“During one of the final radio transmissions, according to the account,
Steed told Marsh the crew was not going to make it.”
So let’s say this ‘story’ really is accurate.
That there DID come a moment when Jesse Steed realized they were in deep shit… and he radioed Eric Marsh ( EAST of them in the box canyon and closer to the Boulder Springs Ranch ) over the GM intra-crew and told Marsh “We’re not going to make it”.
It stands to reason that there would have then immediately been MORE communication between Marsh and Steed and now it was all about what EMERGENCY actions they should begin to take.
In other words… did Steed himself, at that point, make the decision(s) to
1) find a deployment site; 2) start improving it; 3) prepare to ‘burn it out’…
…or were those all INSTRUCTIONS given directly TO him by Eric Marsh, who was now probably RUNNING back ( west ) to their location?
Marsh COULD have then either tried to call out to OPS himself ( and discovered he was unable to do so )… or Steed could have only then discovered the same thing… and then BOTH men realized that the only channel they had left was the ‘Air To Ground’ channel… because of the circumstances they had gotten themselves into.
SIDENOTE: Notice that in that original ‘account’ from Paladini… there is also more PROOF that the Blue Ridge Hotshots moving the other GM vehicles heard exactly the same GM intra-crew radio traffic that Brendan did. Paladini did not say they ‘might’ have heard it. He is suggesting that Brendan himself told Willis the Blue Ridge Hotshots DID hear exactly what HE heard.
We all have believed that the Crew Net could Transmit and Receive.
Transmits on TAC were possible to the Restaurant as a line of site along with Crew Net.
Why did no one call back on TAC 1 or 5???????
I go Back one more time to The Ten Standard Orders.
#6 Be Alert, Keep Calm Think Clearly, Act Decisively.
#8 Give clear instructions and make sure they are understood.
#7 Maintain Prompt Communications with your Forces,
Your Supervisor and Adjoining Forces
When you violate 8 of the 10 standard Orders you normally do not live to talk about it.
Within those 10 were the LCES.
You lose 1 or more of LCES you are now in deep shit. NO BODY KNEW IT.
The Fire overran them very fast from the time they saw it to deployment but Marsh had time 2 or 3 min. to have given better location and a drop coordination location.
Based on time we can say Marsh was very close or with them before deployment.
Had they even Talked to BR or air or OPS and discussed their plan and location they could have diverted this whole move before it started.
Panic—- and what Freq. to talk on with a specific amount of information would have helped.
Just one big fucking mess caused by Marsh and Steed with no Plan No Communications.
Air had no time and no chance to even help, buy the time of fire in front of them the smoke had to be laying over their position. to set up and make a drop run you need to first know where the crew is and not be dropping blind thru smoke. The wind would have blown the drop all over the place. Plus the time to set up the drop by then it was all over for the crew.
Reply to Bob Powers post on February 29, 2016 at 8:44 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> We all have believed that the Crew Net could Transmit and Receive.
Yes… and according to what Brendan McDonough finally testified to in his interview with ‘Wildfire Today’… he AND the other Blue Ridge Hotshots WERE able to hear all that ‘GM Crew Net’ traffic taking place after Brendan was ‘rescued’ by Brian Frisby. If Brendan was hearing it ( in the GM Superintendent Truck ), then they were hearing the same traffic ( in the other GM vehicles.).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Transmits on TAC were possible to the Restaurant as a line of site
>> along with Crew Net.
Yes… and that might be the reason that there is only a limited number of people ( Blue Ridge ) saying they heard anything on TAC 1 ( TAC ONE ).
If there WERE any ’emergency’ transmits from GM just prior to them switching to the A2G channel… then we know where they were and it would have probably only been people in the Yarnell area who had a chance to ‘hear’ those TAC channel transmits ( because of the ‘line of sight’ issues ).
>> Bob Power also said…
>>
>> Why did no one call back on TAC 1 or 5??????
Good question.
Did Jesse Steed switch over to the A2G channel only AFTER several attempts to communicate on the TAC channels… and he was getting no response?
If it really is true that Blue Ridge heard some emergency traffic on the TAC 1 ( TAC ONE ) channel BEFORE there was any ‘MAYDAY’ traffic on the A2G channel… then there were a lot of other people down there on the south end of the fire that would have been likely to have heard the same TAC traffic.
But so far… that one reference in the Blue Ridge SAIT interview notes represents the only reference to anyone hearing anything at all on TAC 1 channel.
But a LOT of important eyewitnesses to the tragedy who were there in the Yarnell area at the time have never even been interviewed and there has been no chance to even ASK them if they heard the same things Blue Ridge says they did.
Examples: Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd… Air Support person Dan Sullivan… etc.
WTKTT,
From BRHS Unit Log: “Focused on that Trew tries to raise GM on crew.”
You posted:
“5. Moments later… Trueheart Brown is TRYING TO TALK TO GM ON THE ‘CREW NET’. No mention there of HOW Brown was trying to do that… but since they were now already in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot it could have been that he got Brendan McDonough to give him his hanheld to do that… OR… Brown could have been using any of the radios in any of the four GM vehicles that were now also parked in the RHR parking lot.”
“6. When Trueheart Brown DID try to talk directly to them via their ‘Crew Net’ frequency,
he heard an audible ‘keyed mic’, as if someone out there at the deployment site DID
hear him, and was trying to respond.”
Another possibility is Brown could have been using his own handheld radio with the GMHS Crew Net frequency programmed in.
The discreet HS Crew Net frequencies are pretty standard nationally with only the Tone or Channel Guards being different.
So, it’s possible that at least some of the BRHS had the GMHS Crew Net programmed into their handheld radios because they were adjoining forces, i.e. Fire Order #7.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on February 29, 2016 at 9:46 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Another possibility is Brown could have been using his own
>> handheld radio with the GMHS Crew Net frequency programmed in.
>>
>> The discreet HS Crew Net frequencies are pretty standard nationally
>> with only the Tone or Channel Guards being different.
>>
>> So, it’s possible that at least some of the BRHS had the GMHS Crew
>> Net programmed into their handheld radios because they were
>> adjoining forces, i.e. Fire Order #7.
Absolutely.
And it remains ASTOUNDING that no set of investigators ever even ASKED that question or was able to determine this important piece of information.
If Frisby and Brown didn’t have the GM Crew Net frequency when the day started… they most certainly could have had it by 12:25 PM when they left that half-hour-long face to face meeting with Marsh and Steed.
The only real EVIDENCE that ( even after that face-to-face ) Brian Frisby himself did NOT have the ability to talk to Marsh or Steed on HIS handheld is the fact that later in the afternoon, when he was rescuing Brendan, Frisby testified he was having no luck raising Marsh on a TAC channel… and that is when Brendan McDonough had to GIVE Frisby HIS radio so that Frisby could try and get Marsh on the GM Crew Net.
So it really does look like Frisby did NOT ever have the GM Crew Net frequency programmed into HIS handheld…
…but as for Trueheart Brown… it is still possible that he DID.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on February 29, 2016 at 9:46 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Another possibility is Brown could have been using his own
>> handheld radio with the GMHS Crew Net frequency programmed in.
Yes. ( Followup to post up above ).
There is also that moment when Trueheart Brown testified ( in his official Unit Log ) that after he got in the GM Chase truck and he and Brendan then drive down to where the GM Crew Carriers were… Brown says he specifically got on the GM CREW NET frequency and had a long conversation with Marsh / Steed about what they were doing and where they were taking the vehicles.
We have been ‘assuming’ Brown meant he was then using he onboad radio in the GM Chase Truck to do that… but he still COULD have actually just been using his own handheld to have the conversation over the GM CREW NET.
From Captain Trueheart Brown’s official ( redacted ) ‘Unit Log’ that the SAIT never released until February 27, 2014…
———————————————–
At this time I jump on the crew radio and talk with ( REDACTED ) about where
we are taking the buggies and the situation down here. I explain about
what we are doing and what the fire behavior is doing. ( REDACTED )
( REDACTED ). I also reiterate that we are going to keep their rigs
with us too because things are very dynamic now, and ( REDACTED )
mentions that they are trying to come down off the hill, he mentions
traveling through the black. I also get positive confirmation that ( REDACTED )
understands where the trucks will be parked because he can see the trucks
driving out and I orient him to the rocky area north along the dozer line
( end of shrine rd. ) that we are taking them to.
( TWO FULL LINES REDACTED )
—————————————————
The TIME when Brown had this ‘GM CREW NET’ conversation would
be somewhere in following few minutes…
———————————————————————-
1553:47 – As per GPS… The exact moment Frisby and Brown arrived back where the GM Supt and Chase Trucks were parked at the top of the Sesame Clearing area.
1554 – 34.231782, -112.773124 – 1197.480 – 13.61 – In Sesame area. Frisby and Brown have already arrived ( about 13 seconds before 1554 ) back where the GMTrucks are parked at the point where east-west Sesame Trail meets the Sesame Area. Brown gets in GM Chase truck and Frisby, Brown and Brendan are about to drive the GM vehicles south in the Sesame Clearing down to where the GM Crew Carriers are.
1555 – 34.230223, -112.771692 – 0749.953 – 08.52 – In Sesame area. Already on the move back SOUTH through the Sesame area after having stopped where the GM Supt and Chase trucks were parked for less than 60 seconds.
1556 – 34.228893, -112.771145 – 0628.204 – 07.14 – In Sesame area. Still heading SOUTH in the Sesame Area
———————————————————————
WTKTT,
You posted: “Paladini did not say they ‘might’ have heard it. He is suggesting that Brendan himself told Willis the Blue Ridge Hotshots DID hear exactly what HE heard.”
Posted in an August 3, 2015 AZ Central article titled: “Yarnell Fire: New account of hotshot deaths,” the authors mentioned several times about HEARSAY evidence.
“Amanda Marsh, the Granite Mountain supervisor’s widow, said Friday that if there was not a recording of the entire conversation, then it is hearsay.”
The only way the discreet Crew Net channel could be recorded is with something akin to the ‘Helmet Cam video.’
“Willis and Paladini later met with lawyers from the state Attorney General’s Office, Forestry and ADOSH, urging them to get a sworn statement from McDonough. “I felt that it was more important for them to know and for them to talk to him because ALL OF IT WAS COMING FROM ME AS HEARSAY,” Willis explained.”
“[AZ State Forestry attorney David] Selden warned that delaying the deposition might harm surviving family members because versions of McDonough’s revelation would leak and be distorted. “This is a matter of extreme sensitivity. It should not become a subject of speculation, rumor, grapevine communications and second-, third-, or fourth-hand hearsay.”‘
This is a link for the Arizona Rules of Evidence regarding the 25 EXCEPTIONS for hearsay evidence. They closely mirror the Federal Rules of Evidence on hearsay.
“Arizona Rule 803, Hearsay exceptions; Availability of declarant immaterial.”
http://www.arizonacrimelaws.com/e803.htm
There appears to me to be about 3 to 4 ‘hearsay exceptions’ that would pretty clearly apply to the ‘Discussing Our Options’ GMHS Crew Net conversation overheard on 30 June 2013, by McDonough and others that day.
From their location in the basin, the GMHS crew would not have had a direct line to the Ranch House. The South ridge of the basin would have blocked any direct line for communication from where they deployed and their position coming down the mountain. However Marsh would have had a direct line and likely a direct view of the GMHS crew from where he was located. And I suspect that was likely near the ranch and in the boulders on the South ridge of the basin where he could keep eyes on the two track and the crew descending from there.
If the granite ridge could block their radio communication then they would have been cut off from communication with the Ranch House location. That would go for Marsh as well if he were on the south ridge.
The question is would the ridge block radio communication? If so then cell phones would have to suffice for communication to anyone at the Ranch House. Since we retrieved Penny at a location that overlooks the complete basin we know there were no fire men on that road where they could absolutely view the whole basin. When we passed the Ranch House it seemed to be a huddle of all units right there–coffee and donut time?
And according to the Willis testimony as WTKTT lays it out for us, Marsh knew he was doing a suicide run to meet his crew after he saw the error of ordering those men down into the basin. Perhaps that is mitigated somewhat by the belief the wildland fire fighting community has in what Bob Powers calls the turkey roaster blankets.
For those hardy souls that can hike up a 50-60 degree. You can go down the Yarnell Hill, HWY 89 toward Congress and see 5 or so vehicles spending your tax dollars. American Conservation Experience at http://www.usaconservation.org is pasted on the sides of a couple vans that haul bodies and equipment necessary for the building of that trail.
Lets hope you don’t have to ask Chief Ben Palm for permission to take that hike. But then few will be able to do it anyway. Maybe we should give out awards to people that do–since those seem to be easy to earn in the Yarnell fire fighting community.
I was thinking of all the money spent there and on this memorial to honor Marsh’s and Steed’s skrew up, et. al., why not spend a few million on better training of bosses and their underlings in the Wild Land Fire Fighting Community. It certainly seems they need it as well as better equipment and better pay. It would seem to me that the people running the show have their priorities backwards. Telling the truth about this fire and how poorly it was managed, how badly communications were, and how GMHS were fudging hours for extra pay would only lead to helping people understand how low these men are paid, how badly they are instructed by poorly trained bosses, men that follow bad advice because of poor training and understanding of dangerous situations, and how desperately they need improved communication devices and equipment.
To hide the truth here at Yarnell denies the Wild Land Fire Fighters the right of remedy to these situations–will be a continuation of tragic events we saw here in our own back yard. In fact it is only a half mile to the site from my cabin–a sad reminder of the Yarnell debacle when I look to the NW.
My own bill for heart work ran $178,577.00 the first attack. The second one was only $108,577. The helicopter ride $38,00.00 and the Prescott ride from the VA hospital to the Yavapai Regional Hospital hospital a bit more than $4000,00 by ambulance. No wonder my son became a RN–they make damn near as much as Uranium miners.
Moral is eat more Salmon.
Charlie Good Stuff a Picture from the Ranch House Restaurant shows the Mouth of the Canyon that would be enough for and evidently was enough to receive Tac 1 and 5 and also crew net.
The short time 2 minuets it took Marsh to come on the Radio with the crew
after Steeds first call would indicate he was very close to the crew to have done that with the Chainsaws in the background.
Had he been on the rocks and could then see the Fire why would he have not told the crew they were in a bad fix before they ever saw the fire?
I do not believe he could see what the fire was doing or they would never have been where they were.
Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 8:55 AM
Apparantly RTS had it right. He would have been one of the best to have along on this STIFF ride to see how the bosses screwed up at Yarnell and what can be done to make sure future capable fire fighters such as we had in Yarnell, Peeples Valley, and Congress can get off their lunks and get out a lightening strike, as well as what can be done to assure the taxpayer that our dollars pay for bosses that know how to manage a fire without the pandemonium that we saw at Yarnell. As one deputy Sheriff told us, it was just a confused and messed up situation that Sunday. That speaks to what is known about how the fire was being managed by a person of authority observing the situation first hand. It tells us this fire ride might indeed do some good if these men are honest and do not try to make the operation look good so they can hand out more awards for the worst historical management job in decades.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on February 28, 2016 at 5:35 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT…
>> I do NOT know if John Burfiend was “one of the designated SMEs involved in this
>> ‘Staff Ride’ presentation” and I do NOT know if he was “one of the 22 ‘esteemed
>> experts’ that Arizona Forestry says were just acting as ‘audience’ for that ‘Alpha’
>> test last week.”
Okay. Thank you for answering the question.
With regards to WHY this ‘Alpha Staff Ride’ didn’t get anywhere near the actual ‘Sesame Clearing’ location, and the place where the Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge vehicles were all parked for most of the day…
…the ‘answer’ might very well be a case of them being unable to obtain the proper ‘hiking permissions’.
Follow the ‘Bouncing Staff Ride’ ball here for a moment and you will see what I mean…
According to the (current) planned route for the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride, it begins right there near the ‘cattle pond’ area just to the north of the Boulder Springs Ranch itself. That location is inside Yavapai County Parcel number 203-05-003M.
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-05-003M
Owner: HELM HUGH L & DIANE J JT
Owner’s Mailing Address: P.O. Box 128, Yarnell, AZ, 853620128
The ‘Staff Ride’ then proceeds due NORTH on an old, obscure two-track that leads away from that ‘cattle pond’ location.
Almost immediately after leaving the ‘cattle pond’ area, that two-track they are now traveling on is now on the (new) Arizona State Parks land parcel…
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 800-25-001E
Owner: Arizona State Parks
Owner’s Mailing Address: 23751 N. 23rd Ave., #190 Phoenix, AZ 85085
Phone: (602) 542-4174 / Toll Free: (877) MYPARKS
Once the group had traveled only 248 yards north on Arizona Parks land, they crossed over another property line boundary and were now traveling north inside of a parcel owned by rancher Rex Maughan…
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-02-002
Owner: MAUGHAN 2007 REVOCABLE TRUST
Secondary Owner: MAUGHAN, REX AND RUTH, TTEES
Owner’s Mailing Address: P.O. Box 29041, Phoenix, AZ 850389041
That ‘first stop’ on the walking tour was about midway through this parcel of land owned by Rex Maughn, at a point about 0.18 miles ( 322 yards / 967 feet ) due SOUTHWEST of where the Granite Mountain Crew Carriers were actually parked the morning of June 30, 2013.
That spot where the Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge Crew Carriers were all actually parked most of the day is NOT on the same ‘Rex Maughan’ parcel where the tour had ‘stopped’. It is inside Yavapai County parcel 203-05-004.
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-05-004
Owner: WHITEHEAD LIMITED PARTNERSHIP
Owner’s Mailing Address: 18950 S. Walnut Grove Cemetery Rd.
Kirkland, Arizona 86332
The ‘Staff Ride’ then continued north and just before they reached the point where the two-track they were on interesected with that other two-track that runs east-west and out to the old-grader… they crossed OUT of Rex Maughn’s parcel number 203-02-002 and into a NEW parcel…
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 800-20-057
Owner: Arizona State Trust Land
So the group has now reached actual Arizona State Trust Land, and when the reached the point where the two-track they had been traveling north on intersected with that other two-track heading out to the old-grader, they STOPPED again for a few minutes.
That ‘second’ stopping point was 0.23 miles ( 411 yards, 1,234 feet ) due WEST of where the Granite Mountain Superintedent and Chase trucks were actually parked that day, and the place where Brendan McDonough was first ‘dropped off’ after his rescue by Brian Frisby, and the place McDonough then took those photos of his at exactly 3:49 PM on June 30, 2013.
NOTE: That point where the Granite Mountain Superintendent and Chase trucks were actually parked on June 30, 2013 is also located inside the same Arizona State Trust Land Parcel that the ‘Staff Ride’ had now entered… so if they had WANTED to route the Staff Ride to THAT location, there would have been no additional ‘permissions’ required.
The ‘Staff Ride’ then went WEST and all the way towards the ‘old-grader’ location, remaining inside that same Arizona State Trust Land parcel.
They ‘stopped’ near the old-grader for another ‘presentation’ of some kind, then they proceeded to head SOUTH on another two-track and on UP towards the anchor point area where Granite Mountain had been working that Sunday.
Shortly after leaving the old-grader location and heading south… the ‘Staff Ride’ then crossed BACK into the same ‘Rex Maughan’ land parcel ( number 203-05-004 ), that they had to pass through earlier when heading north away from the ‘cattle pond’.
The ‘Staff Ride’ REMAINS on this same Rex Maughan parcel number 203-05-004 for the entire ‘climb’ up to the ‘anchor point area’ and they would only then cross out of that Rex Maughn parcel ( and back into Arizona State Trust Land parcel 800-20-057 shortly before reaching the actual assigned workplace location for Granite Mountain.
The ‘Staff Ride’ then remained in that general ‘work’ area, on that Arizona State Trust Land Parcel, for quite some time… with various ‘presentation’ at various locations ‘up there’.
When it was time to then head SOUTH and follow the path that Jesse Steed and the crew took after deciding to LEAVE the ‘safe black’… the tour then had to cross BACK into that same ‘Rex Maughan’ parcel number 203-05-004.
Shortly before reaching the infamous ‘Descent Point’, where Jesse and the Crew decided to drop off the high-ridge two-track and descend into the fuel-filled blind box canyon… the ‘Staff Ride’ then exited the ‘Rex Maughan’ parcel and crossed back into the new ‘Arizona State Parks’ land parcel number 800-25-001E.
They remained inside the ‘Arizona State Parks’ parcel as they descended to the deployment site. The ‘Staff Ride’ remained at the deployment site for some time, and then headed EAST towards the Boulder Springs Ranch following that same dozer road that was pushed the night of the tragedy to help retrieve the bodies.
The ‘Staff Ride’ ended by entering the cleared area of the Boulder Springs Ranch compound, owned by Lee and DJ Helm.
** SUMMARY
So it looks like the CURRENT ‘Staff Ride’ was planned in such a way that they only had to have ‘hiking/access’ permission(s) for FOUR different areas…
1. Property owned by Lee and D.J. Helm.
2. Property owned by Arizona State Parks Department.
3. Property owned by Rancher Rex Maughan.
4. Property owned by Arizona State Trust Lands Department.
If they had elected to actually include the (important) ‘Sesame Clearing’ area, they would have needed to obtain one more additional land owner’s permission(s)…
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-05-004
Owner: WHITEHEAD LIMITED PARTNERSHIP
Owner’s Mailing Address: 18950 S. Walnut Grove Cemetery Rd.
Kirkland, Arizona 86332
So perhaps they tried… but could NOT obtain permission to traverse that parcel of land where the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area is actually located, and they were FORCED to confine the ‘Staff Ride’ to areas/parcels where they WERE able to obtain ‘hiking/access permissions’.
All that being said…
If Arizona Forestry is using the phrase “The TRUE PATH of the Granite Mountain Hotshots” to describe this ‘Staff Ride’ to the familly members in the invitation letters that are currently going out… that is a FALSE statement… and the family members should be aware of it up front and before they participate in this ‘Beta Staff Ride’.
They will NOT be getting anywhere near the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area, or the place where their husbands and sons actually began their last hike, and the area where so many other important things happened that fateful day.
what about the eyewitnesses joining the staff ride like Blue Ridge Frisby or Yarnell Hikers?
That would be Joy that posted about the Staff ride. I personally would not want to go along since I don’t like roller skating in a Buffalo herd. If they want a first hand account of what I saw that day and how I feel about the debacle they can come here and read a civilian’s opinion. More than that they can also get top gun opinions from some of the greatest wild land fire fighters and smoke jumpers in the world.
Important experienced and informed people here have made a continuous study of this debacle since its inception on June 28, 2013. No staff ride will accomplish anything except what Gary Olsen indicates–go with the flow no matter the filthy water that supports the boat.
To much Buffalo shit to step in on that ride.
‘
IMPORTANT WARNING – TO ALL FAMILIES OF THE CREW WHO WILL BE AT THE STAFF RIDE
WTKTT has determined the following and I am taking the liberty of posting this information here because I think everyone needs to know;
There might already be PROOF here ( even in what limited information we have at this point )
that this Staff Ride ( as planned ) is a JOKE.
The email sent to all of the families of the crew from Arizona State Forestry Logistics Officer Don Boursier gave a ‘summary’ of the THREE participation levels… and the ‘summary’ describing the FULL ‘Staff Ride’ said ( unequivocally )…
——————————————————————-
Arduous Group: This group will walk the entire 4.3 miles following the true path of Granite Mountain.
No established trails are yet in place for the later half of this path.
——————————————————————-
Key phrase: “The TRUE PATH of Granite Mountain”.
Well… I looked at their actual ‘map’ of the ‘Staff Ride’ again… and I also looked closely
again at the actual Google Earth KML GPS data file that this ‘map’ was
generated from ( on February 18, 2016 )…
…and the ‘path’ they walked last week on the ‘Alpha’ test is in NO WAY
the ‘TRUE PATH’ that the Granite Mountain Hotshots walked on June 30, 2013.
So either they are just trying to establish a ‘shortcut’ for this ‘Staff Ride’ ( and
bypass some very critical locations in the whole ‘story’ of what happened )…
or these morons developing this Staff Ride actually have their heads completely
up their assess and they are totally mistaken about what happened that day.
The GPS tracking for this ‘Alpha Staff Ride’ that took place last week
( February 18, 2016 ) actually starts at that ‘cattle pond’ area which is just
north of the Boulder Springs Ranch itself. That ‘cattle pond’ area happens
to be exactly where DPGS Helicopter Ranger 58 finally ‘set down’ in the
later afternoon of June 30, 2013 and dropped off DPS Medic Eric Tarr shortly
after having ‘seen’ the bodies on the ground out in the box canyon. Ranger 58
tried twice to land right near the bodies… but there was just too much ash
to land safely… so Ranger 58 flew over to this ‘cattle pond’ area just north
of the BSR and that’s where Eric Tarr got out, hiked west, and arrived on
foot where the bodies were.
That is neither here nor there. I very much doubt the ‘Staff Ride’ ever mentions
this fact, even if though that is exactly where this ‘Staff Ride’ BEGINS.
But here’s what I didn’t notice yesterday.
At first glance… it LOOKED like they then hiked NORTH in the Sesame Clearing
area, and the first two ‘stops’ appeared to be (first) where the GM Crew Carriers
were actually parked in that Sesame Clearing area that morning… and (second),
at that place a little farther north where the GM Superintendent and Chase trucks
were first parked that morning.
But on closer inspection… that is NOT the case at all.
Instead of walking NORTH through the actual ‘Sesame Clearing’ area… they walked
NORTH on an obscure two-track trail leading away from the BSR ‘cattle pond’ area
that never came into play at all on June 30, 2013.
This is NOT the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area where all the Granite Mountain
vehicles ( and the Blue Ridge vehicles ) ended up ‘parked’ that day.
This obscure two-track runs WEST of that ‘Sesame Clearing’ area.
So they keep walking north on this two-track that was never involved
with anything that day…and the FIRST STOP is at a CLEARING
that they *might* be trying to pretend is the place where the GM
Crew Carriers were parked ( but it is NOT ).
That ‘first stop’ on the walking tour was 0.18 miles ( 322 yards / 967 feet )
due SOUTHWEST of where the Granite Mountain Crew Carriers were
actually parked the morning of June 30, 2013.
Ditto for the ‘second stop’ that is indicated by the GPS tracking data.
They ‘stop’ again where this trail leading north from the BSR intersects
with that east-west two-track that leads out from the actual Sesame
clearing area to the old-grader.
That point is 0.23 miles ( 411 yards, 1,234 feet ) due WEST of where the
Granite Mountain Superintendent and Chase trucks were actually parked,
and the place where Brendan McDonough was first ‘dropped off’ after his
rescue by Brian Frisby, and the place McDonough then took those photos of
his at exactly 3:49 PM on June 30, 2013.
So right off the bat… if these guys were trying to say that the first two STOPS
on the “TRUE PATH of Granite Mountain” will show the audience (first) where
the GM Crew Carriers were ‘parked’ and (second) where the GM Superintendent
and Chase trucks were parked…
…then they were ( already ) absolutely and totally full of shit even just MINUTES
after this ‘Staff Ride’ began.
If you say you are going to show the “TRUE PATH of Granite Mountain” and let
people ‘walk’ that ‘TRUE PATH’… it is VERY important to actually walk the
‘Sesame Clearing’ area and SEE those two ( actual ) parking locations… because
that becomes VERY important about an hour later when you find yourself standing
up at the anchor point.
Only if you can ‘look back’ towards Yarnell and see EXACTLY where you were
before and where those trucks were ACTUALLY parked… can you ever say you
are getting the ‘TRUE PATH’ and the ‘TRUE PICTURE’ of what THEY were seeing
and experiencing that day up on that ridge.
There’s no way you can make an accurate assessment of how FAR it might have
‘appeared’ to THEM to hike back to those vehicles ( which was part of their critical
decision making that day ) unless you have actually VISITED the site where they
were ACTUALLY parked… instead of just taking some fucking shortcut north
from the BSR.
So it’s important to hear from THEM, now, about what they think these two first
STOPS on their own ‘Staff Ride’ actually represent.
If they come back and say “The actual locations of where GM had parked their
vehicles that day”…
…then they are already presenting a TOTALLY FALSE picture of what really
happened that day.
More follow up on this ( because I think it’s important ).
If they REALLY want this ‘Staff Ride’ to be a ‘learning experience’… then what they REALLY need to do is not only make sure the ‘Ride’ actually DOES go through the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area where Granite Mountain actually ‘dismounted’ and started their hike that day… ( it currently does NOT )… but they also actually need to have some big white FLAGS stuck in the ground out there in the Sesame Area at the places where the GM Crew Carriers were actually parked… AND where the GM Superintendent and Chase trucks were parked a little north of that spot.
Flags BIG enough to then be seen by the participants in the ‘Staff Ride’ once they get up to where GM was actually working and where then going to be making their fatal decisions later on that day.
Why?
Because we KNOW that Jesse Steed, Eric Marsh ( and the entire GM crew ) could SEE their own vehicles in the distance that day from up where they were working, and judge how far away they were.
We can actually SEE them in the distance in Christopher MacKenzie’s photos and videos that he took from that infamous ‘resting spot’ up there where they were working… so we KNOW they could, too.
So to REALLY get a true FEEL for their ‘decision making’ ( or lack thereof ) about whether to even try to hike back towards their vehicles ( or not )… it’s important to ‘see what they saw’ and judge for yourself whether they waited FAR too long that day to even consider stopping what they were doing and getting the hell out of there and back to their vehicles while it was still safe to do so.
WTKTT and Gary,
Thanks for doing the detailed research and revealing this about the initial Developmental Group Staff Ride. WTF?
“A half truth is a whole lie.” ~Yiddish Proverb
“Every lie is two lies — the lie we tell others and the lie we tell ourselves to justify it.” ~Robert Brault
“The most dangerous untruths are truths moderately distorted.” ~Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
“When you tell a lie, you steal someone’s right to the truth.” ~Khaled Hosseini, The Kite Runner, 2003
“It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his PROFESSIONAL BELIEF to things he does not believe he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.” ~Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
“
RTS… see below… I suppose there ARE some ( perhaps ) legitimate reasons why this ‘official’ Yarnell Hill Staff Ride doesn’t even get anywhere near the Sesame Clearing area where the Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge vehicles were parked for most of the day… and where SO many important things took place that day…
…but regardless of any of those reasons… for Arizona Forestry to be describing the established ‘route’ for the ‘Staff Rid’ as the “TRUE PATH of Granite Mountain that day”… is a LIE. It is not.
You’ve been on staff rides yourself.
You’ve even been OUT there ( on the ridge ) yourself, already.
Would you not agree for the ‘official’ full-effort ‘Staff Ride’ and ‘Learning Experience’… it is essential to actually, TRULY follow the ‘real path’ and see/experience EXACTLY what THEY ( GM) saw and experienced?
I understand there are ‘logsitics’ involved here.
I understand there are ‘hiking permissions’ involved.
But that’s THEIR JOB… to ‘figure all that out’ and make sure the ‘Staff Ride’ provides the best learning experience possible.
There is PLENTY of room for actual ‘parking’ out there in the Sesame Clearing area itself. That’s why all the Crew Carriers ( Blue Ridge and GM ) where parked where they were. It was, essentially, a huge ‘parking lot’ even on June 30, 2013.
So they could EASILY start the ‘Staff Ride’ right there… in that IMPORTANT place, where Cordes reminded Marsh that the BSR was his ‘predetermined safety zone’… and everyone could see that it was NOT EVEN VISIBLE from that place where they started their hike that day.
I also understand that they ( Arizona Forestry ) want the full-route hike to END back at the Boulder Springs Ranch. It should.
All that means is they could easily START exactly where GM started their hike that day, hold back 2 or 3 volunteers to be ‘car/truck’ valets, and by the time the Staff Ride even gets out to the anchor point they could have all the participant vehicles simply ‘shuttled’ over to the BSR so they will be there for them when they finish the ‘Staff Ride’.
That’s the minimal effort I think they should be making in order for the ‘Staff Ride’ to actually be the “TRUE PATH of Granite Mountain”.
I also really do think they should mark the exact locations of the GM and Blue Ridge Crew Carriers with big FLAGS… and also the location of the GM Superintendent and Chase trucks with the same kind of big FLAGS.
FLAGS that would then be able to be SEEN by the Staff Ride participants when they finally reach the place where GM was working up on the ridge.
I think it’s critical for the participants to be able to ‘look back’ to the EAST once they are up on that high ridge and easily SEE where the GM vehicles were parked in the distance… EXACTLY the way Marsh, Steed and the Crew were able to do all day long that day.
Only then can the ‘participants’ make their OWN judgements with regards to the ‘distance’ and how that should have influenced their critical decision making that day.
Question for you… ( you don’t have to answer but I wanted to ask )…
You have already confirmed that current USFS NAFRI Director John Burfiend was ‘participating’ in last week’s ‘Alpha’ test-ride out there.
But can you say whether he is in, in fact, one of the designated SMEs involved in this ‘Staff Ride’ presentation… or was John Burfiend just one of the 22 ‘esteemed experts’ that Arizona Forestry says were just acting as ‘audience’ for that ‘Alpha’ test last week?
I have never got excited about Staff Rides.
1. They do not show the true fuel type only 3 years after the fire.
2 The do not talk about failures of the Overhead or the reason for the Fatalities.
3. They are a discussion of WHAT happened not WHY.
The pure fact is it is a SHOW ME TRIP nothing more nothing less.
no hard feelings no what went wrong just here is the area and here is where they died.
DO NOT EXPECT ANY MORE or any lessons learned.
Those happen with crews after the dust and hoopla has cleared.
The down and dirty discussions about what happened and what would you have done different. The realization that if you make bad decisions you could end up dead on the side of a mountain or in a canyon. 19 did die right there in front of you all together under death shrouds or potato bakers.
That the real training and the real Staff Ride but is the real Fire Fighter Ride.
The Staff Ride is a niece feely thing that’s all Making it into any thing else is a dream not worth getting hung up on it.
Remember the SAIT NO BODY DID ANY THING WRONG
You really think you will here any thing different? I DON”T
Bob,
I agree with you for the most part, however, it depends if there are WFF’s (first-hand witness accounts) that were actually there, on the incidents, AND whether they are willing to speak up and tell the truth about what happened or simply ‘toe the Party Line.’
Then you can at least engage these folks at or between the different Stands where ‘they’ actually made (or failed to make) key decisions or in the Integration Phase at the end. There are numerous opportunities to engage these folks.
What IS important is focusing on was HOW decisions were made and communicated on the fireground, and to learn from them for true Lessons Learned.
And then there’s is Dr. Putnam’s accurate first-hand view about having falsified SAIR’s being the basis for falsified Staff Rides.
Bob said,
“2 The do not talk about failures of the Overhead or the reason for the Fatalities.”
And I say, “Ding Ding Ding Ding…we have a WINNER folks!
WTKTT,
I do NOT know if John Burfiend was “one of the designated SMEs involved in this ‘Staff Ride’ presentation” and I do NOT know if he was “one of the 22 ‘esteemed experts’ that Arizona Forestry says were just acting as ‘audience’ for that ‘Alpha’ test last week.”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
February 28, 2016 at 5:35 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I do NOT know if John Burfiend was “one of the designated
>> SMEs involved in this ‘Staff Ride’ presentation” and I do NOT
>> know if he was “one of the 22 ‘esteemed experts’ that Arizona
>> Forestry says were just acting as ‘audience’ for that ‘Alpha’
>> test last week.”
Okay. Thank you for answering the question.
Very good quotes from RTS. Indeed the truth here at Yarnell is of utmost importance. The only way we can learn from such tragic errors is to identify them. To cover up the reasons for the tragic deaths of 19 young wild land fire fighters is to allow the lies to allow these events to recur.
If any awards are handed out, let it be for the biggest lies told in this investigation report. There are some that were involved in this tragic Yarnell event that need gold painted plastic awards for the whoppers they present to an unwitting public.
I suppose there ARE, in fact, some ‘explanations’ why the ‘full route’ of the planned Staff Ride doesn’t get anywhere near the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area.
1. They ( Arizona Forestry ) couldn’t obtain the necessary hiking permissions to traverse the actual ‘Sesame Clearing’ area, where so many important events happened that day.
2. They thought heading the CORRECT way from the start of the ‘Staff Ride’ there near the Boulder Springs Ranch was adding too much ‘distance’ to the full-round-trip ‘Staff Ride’, so they opted for this ‘shortcut’ that doesn’t include the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area.
NOTE: It would really only add about 1/2 mile to the hike if they route it correctly and include the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area… but maybe they thought adding another 1/2 mile to the already lengthy 4.2 mile hike was just too much.
3. They ( Arizona Forestry ) simply decided they actually did not WANT the ‘Staff Ride’ to traverse the actual ‘Sesame Clearing’ area, for whatever reasons.
4. They ( the ones planing the Staff Ride ) actually DO think they have it ‘routed’ correctly, and that this obscure trail leading north from the BSR cattle pond area really IS where Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge parked all their vehicles for most of that fateful day.
The scariest ‘reason’ ( if it is true ) would be number 4.
That would mean the people planning this ‘Staff Ride’ didn’t even know how to read any of the maps that are already in the public evidence record… and ( perhaps even worse? )… it would meant there isn’t anyone involved in the planning who is able to even ‘catch that mistake’ and realize the are ‘getting it wrong’.
Either way… and for whatever reason… it is NOT TRUTHFUL to describe the currently planned ‘Staff Ride’ route as the “TRUE PATH of Granite Mountain”.
It isn’t.
Yes that Sesame Street area is restricted private land and likely the man that has the control of the gate is not prone to allowing a gang in through his property. In fact he confronted Bruce and Bret of ADOSH–and it took their badges to get by him. I think if they were to ask Joy, she could easily get permission to pass through. She has rapport with nearly all land owners here.
Well, we are not totally crazy after all. A long time fire fighter and experienced wild land boss and excellent character source has told me that he too saw that U tube video of a back burn or burn out right in the Shrine area. That was something not investigated and mention of high importance. Did that burn out have anything to do with trapping the GMHS crew? I could believe it did. Those winds were of the 45 mph range and headed directly up towards the basin where the GMHS crew were. I have not got the exact distance but it would be right about a mile distant and on an upgrade as well from the Shrine. Was this more of the mismanagement and improper actions on that took place during the fire? A fire on the upgrade like that can cover a mile in just minutes. RTS gave a good reference to a video on the effects of grade–each 10% increase in grade doubles the rate of advance of a fire. Add that fierce wind evidenced in bent trees in the video and what kind of rate do you have on top of the doubling and tripling effect at 10% and 20% grade above level effect.. Add also chimney draw effect for that basin laid between two tall ridges and you can see how fast that fire would advance from the Shrine area up to the Helms and the north edge of Glen Isla.
Willis and others put the fire advance at 11 mph. I do not know how they came up with the figure–seems slow in a 45mph wind and with the up grade and chimney, but if so one mile would mean the fire would be there from the Sesame area in less than 6 minutes. Remember the fleet of foot marathon runner Brett Steuter of ADOSH needed 22 minutes to drop down from the two track to where the men deployed. That was after the landscape looked like the surface of the moon with a few boulders scattered about-no brush to encounter. That deployment site was about half way to the ranch and it is said that there were at least 600 yards more of the densest brush found on the east side of the mountain to get through.
Now there were two videos posted lately that immediately followed the U tube video that was deleted. The burn out would have been going on some minutes–5-15 before the late video times. I don’t know if Joy can figure the time the latest videos were — if so it can be determined what effect a burn out from along the West side of Sesame Street a couple hundred yards above the pavement end of Sesame Street would have toward trapping the GMHS crew.
I kept saying Sesame Street for burn out., but I should have been reporting Shrine Area and that dirt road directly above the Shrine. The pavement ends just a few yards above the Shrine property and a low rock fence on the west side of that dirt road helped us identify the burn out position. Correct that Sesame–We do not know if one was being done there also.
Sonny,
Glad you are back and hope you are well.
Your mention of the burnout activities has stuck in my mind since your first mention of it and the deleted youtube video. I believe this may be a critical piece of information that should be developed. I’d like to know exactly where this burnout took place and when.
Each time you mention it, it sort of ‘drifts away’ but very well may be critical information. Or not but it deserves further investigation. Thanks for bringing it up again.
How can one locate this video?
Woodsman
This is from Dan Guenthner’s FSOMLE Safety Blog with an article about ‘Silencing People Who Disagree’ and how the US Forest Service treats their employees.
“Recently, a USFS research scientist and a group of researchers from UC Davis wrote and published a paper. They were spot on in their paper. However the USFS made every effort to silence the USFS researcher, even going to Court and loosing. They even barred him from publicly talking about the research. They tried to get the scientific magazine to remove his name from the article.”
The article can be found here:
ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE
Reform forest fire management
M. P. North, S. L. Stephens, B. M. Collins, J. K. Agee, G. Aplet, J. F. Franklin, and P. Z. Fulé
Science 18 September 2015: 1280-1281.
http://fsomle.blogspot.com/2015/09/silencing-people-who-disagree.html
ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE
Reform forest fire management
M. P. North, S. L. Stephens, B. M. Collins, J. K. Agee, G. Aplet, J. F. Franklin, and P. Z. Fulé
Science 18 September 2015: 1280-1281.
http://www.sierraforestlegacy.org/Resources/Conservation/FireForestEcology/FireScienceResearch/FuelsManagement/FM-North_etal_Science2015.pdf
reply to:
Arduous Group: This group will walk the entire 4.3 miles following the true path of Granite Mountain.
No established trails are yet in place for the later half of this path.
——————————————————————-
Key phrase: “The TRUE PATH of Granite Mountain”.
Will Brendan be on these staff rides?
Reply to Charlie post on February 28, 2016 at 8:22 pm
>> Charlie asked…
>>
>> Will Brendan be on these staff rides?
There has been ‘some’ information that has surfaced about this ‘Alpha test’ of the Staff Ride that already took place on February 18, 2016 ( see Robert the Second’s posts down below )… but there is still no word about WHO the actual SMEs ( Subject Matter Experts ) were for this ‘Alpha test’… or even who the actual “22 esteemed Wildland Firefighting EXPERTS” were that were functioning as the ‘test audience’ for the ‘Staff Ride’.
So the short answer about Brendan being involved would be…
Who knows. Maybe.
Personally… I doubt it.
‘Alpha test’ of the Staff Ride that already took place on February 18, 2016
that’s what all the vehicles were for that day. Joy mentioned it that day something was up.
reply to:
So either they are just trying to establish a ‘shortcut’ for this ‘Staff Ride’ ( and
bypass some very critical locations in the whole ‘story’ of what happened )…
or these morons developing this Staff Ride actually have their heads completely
up their assess and they are totally mistaken about what happened that day.
If they do not do the right way with Brendan than it is just another narrative-
Sad.
We still don’t know WHY the ‘Staff Ride’ is totally bypassing the Sesame Clearing area, and using that other ‘two-track’ that heads north from the ‘cattle pond’ area instead.
It *could* be because they could not obtain the necessary hiking/access permissions from the ‘WHITEHEAD LIMITED PARTNERSHIP’ that owns the land where the ‘Sesame Clearing’ is located… but it also *could* still be that whoever planned this Staff Ride is TOTALLY confused about where the Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge vehicles were actually parked that day… and they ( somehow ) really do believe they are ‘visiting’ the parking locations via that other two-track.
I certainly hope that isn’t the case… because that would mean whoever planned this ‘Staff Ride’ doesn’t even know how to read a map.
Email excerpt from someone on the Development Group regarding the Sesame Street issue.
“The Sesame Street route is thru private property with owners having no interest in letting a group traverse their land…as well as some self evident logistics problems with vehicles and large groups.”
That was Joy’s post above about Staff Ride and Alpha stuff. I have no interest in the Staff ride thing and would agree with Bob Powers on that thing–it is almost a non-event and nothing changes since their is a propensity to defend the troops no matter how badly they preformed.
Nothing changes if nothing changes–staff ride with so many stiffs.
Of course the staff ride is a joke, as was the SAIT.
If both were truthful, there would be a definitive answer as to why the 19 died, and I suspect a whole pile of lawsuits would be filed for negligence.
Gotta continue the lies, in order to “save harmless” those responsible. and That should be accountable.
I am moving this to the top because I don’t want it to get lost below and I have a dog in THIS fight. In case anybody has missed it, Dr. Putnam is the foremost wildland firefighting expert in the U.S. and probably the world.
Robert the Second says
FEBRUARY 26, 2016 AT 7:33 PM
Dr. Putnam had this to say about less-than-truthful SAIR’s and Staff Rides based on them.
“Once firefighter and investigator lies about fatality fires get written into official reports, staff rides only turn the lies into dramas. Even if the Truth later seeps out, the staff rides keep regurgitating the same original lies. Net effect is firefighters keep dying for the same reasons thus NWCG and all its ilk are truly guilty of negligent homicide. We lie to protect our imaginary personal, crew and agency images and real firefighters keep suffering and dying to nourish those collective fragile egos.”
“Both Gary Olson and I told the real truth at the Battlement Creek Staff ride and none of it ever got incorporated into that staff ride. There is very little learning at the Lessons Learned Centers. Calling NWCG a ship of fools is an act of kindness…after all they were once firefighters. Same old shit but still stinky, disgusting and deadly.”
Yes, I told them what really happened on the Battlement Creek Staff ride during the development of the staff ride since I was part of the developmental committee until I resigned in disgust. There were no private contract companies involved in developing that staff ride, it was all done by the NWCG using wildland firefighters from various agencies, most of whom were former hotshot crew bosses who were at that time in upper management. I was the only one who was not an employee of the federal government.
Even though I resigned from the developmental committee I was still asked several times to attend the staff ride as a Subject Matter Expert to participate at the stand where the burn out that killed the Mormon Lake guys was set. I told the truth there as well.
At the dinner, they literally go around the entire room of participants table to table and give everyone the opportunity to address the entire group and tell everyone else what they learned that day during the field exercise. As you can imagine that takes several hours since almost everyone stands up and speaks.
When it was my turn to talk…I did and I told the truth again. I distinctly remember Dr. Putnam, who was on the Battlement Creek Fire as a sector boss (old Large Fire Organization) standing and telling the truth again very forcefully about what really happened on the Battlement Creek Fire the same way I had either listened to him tell the truth in individual conversations and addressing the group before that time. I didn’t know Dr. Putnam then and so I never spoke directly to him.
The day before the staff rice I had lunch with the developmental committee coordinator who was a hard-as-nails blue flame up and coming crew boss by the name of Shawna Legarza who was at that time the San Juan Hotshot Crew Boss and the first women hotshot crew boss I had ever seen, much less talked to. During that lunch I again told her the truth about what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire. Shawna was always very respectful to me and treated me with kindness…but she said they were going to follow the official report of the fire for the staff ride.
They very politely listened to everything Dr. Putnam and I said about the Battlement Creek Fire and then they ignored everything we said.
If anybody thinks the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride is going to tell the truth about what happened on that fire and why the crew died…you are very naive and have NOT been paying attention to current events (Alien), but if all you want is a good cry and to feel better about why and how the crew died, you will really like the staff ride.
This is a 4-page article written by Ken Weaver, the father one of the 2002 30-Mile Fire Fatalities, Devin Weaver. It’s titled “Why Were They There?”
It is a very sobering indictment of WFF’s considering the WFF Rules as mere guidelines instead of The Rules they were initially intended to be; supervisory responsibilities and the abandonment of those responsibilities, including the Incident Commander; the alleged notion of “Safety First’ when it is NOT first; the US Forest Service not even following their own rules and not being held accountable or answering to anyone for their blunders and shortcomings; and the tragic loss of a loved one.
Very close parallels to the YH Fire (and all other wildland fire fatalities). Very worth reading.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/lessons-learn/WhyWereTheyThere.pdf
Thanks for this reminder of why we are all still here even though I couldn’t read past the first line. But I saved it; I will eventually get there.
I read it took me back to my 9 year old mined. Why did my dad die he was a hero
my hero any way. Who killed him why was he their why didn’t he just leave the lunches and go back to the road. How many time did I ask those questions to my self and my Step Dad over the next ten years.
Yes Gary it was hard reading and I felt every word he said.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on February 25, 2016 at 7:16 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here’s more on the Court settlement dealing with…
>>
>> “The settlement announced today by Arizona Attorney
>> General Mark Brnovich ….
>>
>> “According to the Arizona Republic, the settlement
>> has three key components:
>> ….
>> ‘State forestry has agreed to implement “enhanced
>> safety training” for command personnel, improve its
>> communication systems, and work toward “greater
>> transparency.”’
>>
>> Source: Fire Law blog. “Yarnell Hill LODD
>> Settlement Announced” dated June 29, 2015.
>>
>> I think it is reasonable to conclude that the ‘ENHANCED
>> SAFETY TRAINING FOR COMMAND PERSONNEL’ is very
>> likely the proposed YH Fire Staff Ride.
Perhaps… but compare that ‘copy’ from that media article to the words that came out of Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney’s mouth at the press conference, and then what attorney Patrick McGroder said right after that…
** FROM THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE SETTLEMENT PRESS
** CONFERENCE THAT TOOK PLACE ON JUNE 29, 2015.
Jeff Whitney = Arizona State Forester ( appointed by the Governor ).
Pat McGroder = Prescott attorney that was only representing SOME family members.
In the following exchange, at the end of the press conference, both Whitney and McGroder make separate ( specific ) references to some kind of a (possible) ‘Staff Ride’ product.
Whitney actually does seem to indicate that they ( Arizona Forestry ) were definitely going to try and come up with a ‘Staff Ride’… but he does NOT make it sound like he is being ORDERED ( via the settlement itself ) to do so, nor does he ( himself ) make any direct connection between that ‘Staff Ride’ and any kind of ‘Court Ordered’ responsibilities to get the ‘families’ to APPROVE it.
McGroder is more vague. He makes it sound like there *might* be some kind of ‘ride’… and it *might* be the place/time where Arizona Forestry has to live up to its apparent PROMISE to answer any/all questions from family members… but even he ( McGroder ) waffles about and doesn’t seem sure.
————————————————
+35:56
( Reporter 1 ): Could you explain… this is what’s leaving me confused is… the changes that you guys are offering in return… promises made… how can they have an impact when you’re part of an interagency system that, for example, doesn’t BELIEVE in transparency? The Forest Service won’t even let its firefighters discuss this… and they conduct investigations that… their very statement about the investigation is “We don’t wanna find out what went wrong”.
+36:21
( Jeff Whitney ): Uh… I think you may mis-characterize the posture and the findings of the Serious Accident Investigation.
Um… The Wildland fire community is… uh… a large one.
Uh… I have an opportunity in my position to… uh… carry the… the banner and the interest that all in the wildland community desire in terms of firefighter and public safety… uh… but I think I can bring… as we develop a “Lessons Learned”… uh… document out of this and prepare and provide a staff ride that we’re gonna be able to provide a learning opportunity… uh… to… to take it to that extent.
Thank you.
( Whitney then turns his back on the reporters and leaves the podium ).
( Even as the reporters are directing more questions to the podium… )
( Jeff Whitney and Pat McGroder have this exchange between themselves )
( and decide they are DONE taking questions… )
( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ): I think we’re done.
( Pat McGroder to Jeff Whtiney ): Yea.
( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ):Yea.
( Pat McGroder to Jeff Whitney ): Last one, yea.
+37:05
( Reporter 1 ): This is occurring WITHOUT the sworn testimony of Brendan McDonough… and… are you… are you content with that?
( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ): This one’s in your (world). ( It’s about Brendan ).
+37:13
( Pat McGroder ): Uh… I’ll answer that question.
Uh… at some time… uh… Mr. McDonough may or may not chose to publicy describe what he saw… what he heard that day.
Uh… Mr. McDonough has an attorney at this point in time.
But in terms of today… whether it be Mr. McDonough or the Blue Ridge firefighters… the purpose of today was to let YOU know of the enormity of the commitment that State Forester Whitney has made to sit down with our families… at great lengths… at great expense… and answer their questions, describe what happened… whether it be informally or formally… or in the case of a… a ‘ride’.
So we’re very comfortable in terms of the commitment to the State Forester.
———————————————————-
So I still really wonder exactly what the documents that both parties ( Arizona Forestry and those family members represented by McGroder ) actually SIGNED actually SAYS.
I wonder if there is a CLAUSE in there to the effect of…
“…And if any of these ENHANCED SAFETY TRAINING and LEARNING PRODUCTS turns out to be a bunch of hot, runny bullshit… this settlement shall be considered VOID and no longer in effect”.
any new news on Daniel Lyons? how is he doing?
any new news on Daniel Lyon? how is he doing?
After our discussion below I went to the Plans for the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The first actual written plans were on July 1, 2013
They list all the Tack Radio Freq.
These Tack Freq. are assigned to Arizona by the National Interagency Fire Center NIFC.
from 150. ???? to 169.???? The ? represents the thousand or so Frequencies that are assigned to Federal Fire and Aviation Management. In turn IFC assigns to each State agency Tack and Air Channels which are their operating channels on fires.
Referring back to Air Channels first.
The operating channels on Yarnell from the plans were AtoG 159.354 and Air Guard which is a National air fire Freq. 168.625 both could be used for emergency traffic to the AA.
Air to Air is a seperiate FAA channel used in all Fire Air Craft it is 123.125 normally not in any of the ground radios the Frequency span is to great and 120’s are what I refer to as low ban.
The Plan also denotes the Repeater freq. as I have said before Repeaters need to be line of site
in order to work. Putting one portable out in the flats looking up into the drainages would be much better than relying on the main antenna on the mountain which would still have problems seeing into some canyons. The only transmit out and receive was Air to Ground.
The ability to talk to air craft AA depended on line of site.
That ability is compromised when in a canyon.
The crew had no ability to talk on tack channels once they interred the Canyon.
Their only Communications was to the air craft and their own crew Radio again Line of site.
The aircraft was normally high over the fire and able to communicate with all ground forces.
The aircraft was making some low level runs on the North side of the Fire.
They were in a position to talk and receive all the North end traffic.
The were below and out of site for the South end of the Fire and GM during the most critical time.
The aircraft may have picked up only the last part of the screaming message before they were able to fully communicate.
I will assume the Plain was out
Because those on the ground heard the GM transmissions on Air I would think they were in the Line of site from the Canyon mouth near glean Isla or yarnell on the East side.
So I would agree that most of the time 99% Air to ground was receiving and transmitting.
I have not seen if GM was on Air to Ground or Air Guard that is a specific point.
If they could not talk to command or on that Freq. the only possible contact is to the air as most of us have done for years in dead spots.
So again with out saying I am in support of the AA it is still entirely possible that the Aircraft was out of communications for a few seconds when the first attempts at contact were made.
Because the Transmissions were on Air To Ground no one that herd them responded waiting for the AA to respond.
This is a point to add something very critical. If their had been a Look Out with eyes on them and high on the ridge they could have done severial things at this point communications to them and air and Command. The LO could have directed a Air drop on the crew although the crew would not have been there with a good look out keeping tract of them. It is why lookouts should always be in place for more than just warning some times just for communications.
In the Country in the west we fight fire in there are always dead spots for Radios. It is certainly not uncommon.
Give it up Bob.
You can’t justify, defend, or explain away what Air Attack did and more importantly did not do to help the crew.
What was done and not done is unforgivable. End of story. Yet another causal factor.
The crew was calling AA for help and they were told to shut up. What part of that don’t you understand?
Should they have yelled mayday, mayday, mayday. Yes. But I was never taught to do that nor did I ever hear it even discussed. Yet another causal factor.
I really am growing weary of you always defaulting to defending a broken system.
Is the system broken all of the time on all fires? I hope not. But the truth is…it is probably more broken more often than we know or those who do know care to admit.
Yes…Marsh and Steed own the primary causal factor…but there are many, many many secondary causal factors here that others own.
If you get to roll in it when everything goes right…you get to own it when everything goes wrong. End of story.
And yes, my position has constantly evolved ever since this thread began as I have learned more and more. I started out much like Bob, defending the system as being basically sound.
I said many times the YHF was managed by Chaos and that almost always happens in the first 36 to 48 hours.
I said that is why it is so important for hotshot crew bosses and others to good at what they do, they are often on their own and solely responsible for their own survival.
I was wrong.
The YHF was something…different. It was in a class all by itself…I hope. The outright mistakes and missed opportunities by a cascading cast of characters would be unimaginable except I have seen the evidence of the utter incompetence of so many.
The YHF was truly a long row of falling dominoes that ultimately is responsible for the death of the crew. Marsh and Steed were dominoes…got that. But many others were there as well.
Gary it has never been my intent to justify any thing that AA did only to
explain the Radio system.
Right now Gary you are pushing my button so I am going to back off.
you want the Game go for it.
This whole discussion is becoming a fucking mess anyway.
Well…you are describing exactly how I feel. Thank you for putting it into words for me and saving me some key strokes.
“The YHF was truly a long row of falling dominoes that ultimately is responsible for the death of the crew. Marsh and Steed were dominoes…got that. But many others were there as well.”
A Steady Drift Into Failure.
Exactly Gary. The domino fall started on June 28, 2013 with three dominoes–Yarnell Hill Fire Department, Peeples Valley Fire Department, and Congress Fire Department—all aware of the Lightening Strike yet refused to take immediate emergency action to contain it with extreme fire conditions known by all and posted in large signs throughout the area. There were plenty of other dominoes that were to enter but their corners were rounded so they had no chance of standing–all fell flat on the Yarnell Hill Incident.
Reply to Bob Powers post on February 26, 2016 at 11:28 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> After our discussion below I went to the Plans for the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And most of what you just posted is, in fact, accurate.
I say ‘most’… because I’m going to take specific issue below with a few things you just said above, but there is no arguing that whenever radio communications are fully dependent on just ‘line of sight’… there can be ‘dead spots’ if the terrain gets in the way.
But let’s not forget WHY we are even revisiting this ‘dead spots’ issue.
It’s because of recent news from RTS that John Burfiend himself appears to be one of the SME ‘presenters’ for the Arizona Forestry ‘Staff Ride’ that is currently being ‘Alpha’ and ‘Beta’ tested out there… and during the ‘Alpha’ test last week ( on February 18, 2016 ), he apparently has a part of his ‘presentation’ to the ‘Staff Ride’ audience where he talks about where antennas can be screwed into airplanes ( top, bottom, etc. ) and how that can ‘affect’ the ability to communicate with the aircraft.
But we still don’t know the full ‘context’ of what Burfiend might now be ‘scripted’ to say as an SME in the ‘Staff Ride’.
Is he ( Burfiend, now employed as USFS NAFRI Director ) trying to just ‘tow the company line’ and bolster the original SAIR report about there being all kinds of ‘radio problems’ that day ( most of which has turned out to be untrue )… or is he only now even suggesting that some ‘deadspot’ was part and parcel one of the primary reasons 19 men might have burned to death that day?
We don’t have the full ‘context’ of what he seems to have been saying ( and will continue to say? ) during that ‘Staff Ride’. Not yet, anyway.
So that’s WHY we are revisting this issue.
It’s in the context of Yarnell AA John Burfiend ( now USFS NAFRI Director ) apparently choosing ( or being told ) to ‘revisit’ this issue in the new ‘Staff Ride’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The first actual written plans were on July 1, 2013
That’s correct.
But as far as what happened before that.. I also went back and checked all the ADOSH interviews.
As it turns out… on Sunday morning when Roy Hall and his ‘thrown together’ Type 2 Short team started straggling in… there was NO CHANGE to the coms plan that Arizona Forestry ICT4 had been using since Friday night, when he switched from being Friday’s ‘Duty Officer’ to being the official ICT4 for the new ‘Yarnell Hill Fire. They ( Roy and his people ) just adopted the exact same ‘plan’ and ‘frequencies’ that Shumate had been using since Firday… which Shumate himself described to ADOSH as follows…
From Arizona Forestry ICT4 Russ Shumate’s ADOSH interview on 8/15/2013…
—————————————————————————————-
1536 Q2: And what – what frequency were y’all doing most of your fire operations on?
1537
1538 A: I don’t have a frequency list in front of me.
1539
1540 Q2: (Unintelligible)
1541
1542 A: I could just give you the names of the frequency.
1543
1544 Q2: Yeah, that’d be good.
1545
1546 A: Uh, the communication plan was – command repeater was State repeaters set
1547 one.
1548
1549 Q2: Okay.
1550
1551 A: Tactical – at what point do you want…
1552
1553 Q2: Well (unintelligible).
1554
1555 A: Sunday morning what my com plan was?
1556
1557 Q2: but before you’ve already – before you’ve transitioned to Roy, uh, what was
1558 the communications?
1559
1560 A: So command was what I just said. State TAC – I wanna say State tactical one
1561 was the tactical frequency that the people on the – up on top of the hill were
1562 using.
1563
1564 Q2: Uh-huh.
1565
1566 A: The structure protection organization I created through the night was using
1567 State TAC 2.
1568
1569 Q2: Right.
1570
1571 A: Air to ground had been – my recollection fails me. I want – it – it’s in the
1572 records what…
1573
1574 Q2: Yeah.
1575
1576 A: …what one was assigned to us. It was assigned to us so.
1577
1578 Q2: Yeah.
1579
1580 A: Whatever the one was assigned to us was the one we were utilizing.
1581
1582 Q2: Okay. So y’all had an assigned air to ground frequency for…
1583
1584 A: Correct.
1585
1586 Q2: …for the Yarnell or for the complex probably at that point.
1587
1588 A: Well, we never did call the complex because nothing else ever popped up.
1589
1590 Q2: Yeah okay.
1591
1592 A: So we – but that was the – there wasn’t an air ground assigned to that…
1593
1594 Q2: Okay – okay.
1595
1596 A: …area. And that’s the one we were utilizing.
1597
1598 Q2: Okay. And was all of that – was all the communications, uh, pretty good? I
1599 mean, there was no problem with the repeater or anything like that or?
1600
1601 A: Not that I experienced.
————————————————————————————–
So Shumate had been using the standard Arizona Forestry STATE ‘TAC’ frequencies… and the standard Arizona Forestry ‘command’ channel, which WAS going through the ‘repeater’ that was located on that mountain just EAST of Yarnell itself. He used the same A2G channel that had been in use on Friday when he ( Shumate ) was talking to the Air Attack from Doce who came down to ‘eyeball’ the fire… and that A2G frequency didnt’ change the whole time Shumate was doing Initial Attack.
And NONE of that ‘coms plan’ changed on Sunday morning, either.
In HIS interview with ADOSH… Todd Abel specfically told them that all he did when he arrived Sunday ( before Roy Hall ) was to be sure and copy down the A2G channel Shumate had been using and OPS1 Todd Abel was then just ‘passing that along’ to everyone ( since there was no COMS manager at all showing up with Roy Hall’s team ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Plan also denotes the Repeater freq. as I have said before Repeaters
>> need to be line of site in order to work.
And they also tend to not work if you are actually in the ‘shadow’ of them ( as in… very near or under the antenna on which the repeater is located ).
In HIS interview with ADOSH… OPS2 Paul Musser pointed this ‘issue’ out to them… but made it clear that this ‘issue’ only arose AFTER the deployment and Musser was now trying to be the ‘Field OPS’ from the RHR parking lot, in the ‘shadow’ of the repeater…
A = OPS2 Paul Musser
——————————————————————————
1756 A: Um, I called Roy. I said, uh, we’ve had a shelter deployment at this time.
1757 Granite Mountain Hotshots, I have no further information. And so he was
1758 notified. Um, all of the re- most of the resources were either – were on 89.
1759 Went to the Ranch House Restaurant. Uh, started gathering resources. And
1760 staging people. Um, Todd pulled up, I assigned him as Granite Mountain IC,
1761 incident within an incident. He took that. They start – we started pulling –
1762 getting a group, uh – a couple of UTV’s ready to be able to access the fire area
1763 to look for, as a search. Found all other UTV’s and stuff that were available.
1764 Started pulling the ALS and BLS equipment off the engines. Get the
1765 paramedics and setting up, uh, rescue groups and stuff. Todd took that. Uh, I
1766 remained as operations. Gary Cordes, they had talked about assigning him
1767 into one of the – one of the transport groups, but I pulled him back. Uh, and
1768 he became the structure protection group. I stayed as operations made – made
1769 notifications to air attack. Um, I- ICP, a few others. At that point we realized
1770 there was a problem. When you got to Highway 89 on the south side you were
1771 in the shadow from the repeater and at that – and then you were unable to
1772 transmit on the command channel from that – from that location. We hadn’t
1773 had any problem the rest of the fire.
—————————————————————————-
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to length issues )…
( Continued from above )…
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The ability to talk to air craft AA depended on line of site.
>> That ability is compromised when in a canyon.
That REMAINS fundamentally true ( it’s just physics )… but I believe there’s an absolute consensus now that the ‘practice’ of letting the Air Attack platform ( the person who’s supposed to be available on that A2G channel and responding to it ) fly the right seat in the same ‘Lead Plane’ that dropping down to 150 feet and ‘disappearing’ from line-of-sight on a continual basis has NEVER been a good idea… right?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The crew had no ability to talk on tack channels once they interred the Canyon.
This is one of your statements I’m going to take issue with.
There is evidence ( in even the public record ) that was NOT the case.
Eric Marsh is CLEARLY heard conversing over TAC channel to various people… and in a timeframe when he pretty much MUST have been ‘in the box canyon’ himself.
Examples: The 4:13 PM exchanges with those ‘mysterious’ people askign hin what GM’s status was at that time, and the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video where some other mysterious person seems to be conversing with Marsh and urging him to “hurry to town”.
There is also some evidence that some people DID hear some radio traffic from GM on TAC channels just prior to Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Cam capturing the now infamous A2G psuedo-MAYDAY calls.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Their only Communications was to the air craft and their own
>> crew Radio again Line of site.
Again… not true ( according to some public evidence and actual recordings ).
See above.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They were below and out of site for the South end of the Fire and GM
>> during the most critical time.
We still don’t know whether French and Burfiend ( Bravo 33 ) ever actually made that ‘check flight’ and went down to the ‘south’ to VERIFY whether GM was in the ‘safe black’.
There is some sketchy evidence of people thinking they overheard ‘Air Attack’ talking directly to GM during this ‘critical time’… but most of that remains unverified.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The aircraft may have picked up only the last part of the screaming
>> message before they were able to fully communicate.
I think we’ve been over this many times.
There really is NO QUESTION that John Burfiend heard every single one of those MAYDAY calls in ‘real time’. He SAID he was ‘copying that traffic’ ( to OPS1 Abel ) WHILE it was all happening. Burfiend was simply CHOOSING not to respond to those calls until OPS1 Todd Abel had to ORDER him to do so.
Also riddle me this…
We can hear in the recordings that OPS1 Abel himself heard that first MAYDAY call from Steed ( every word of it ) IMMEDIATELY… and it was only 8 seconds later ( when Burfiend didn’t respond ) that OPS1 Abel also IMMEDIATELY called up to Burfiend on the same A2G channel saying “Bravo 33, OPS Abel… are you copying that traffic?”
OPS1 Todd Abel was all the way up north and all the way out west on Miner’s Camp Road.
There is no question that there were any number of ‘ridges’ ( including the north side of the box canyon itself ) between GM and OPS1 Abel way up north…
…yet OPS1 Abel heard every word that Steed said on that A2G channel at 4:39 PM, and ‘Bravo 33’ was NOT ‘on a drop’ down there on the south end at that time. They had ‘altitude’.
So how could Abel have heard every word… and the aircraft might not have?
It’s a trick question. Just throwing it out there.
See above. We KNOW that Burfiend was ‘hearing’ it. He just wasn’t answering.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If they could not talk to command or on that Freq. the only possible
>> contact is to the air as most of us have done for years in dead spots.
Again. See above. There is evidence ( and actual recordings ) that show ‘command’ talking directly to Eric Marsh out in the box canyon at both 4:13 PM and 4:27 PM. No problem.
The only thing we still don’t know about those direct conversations with Marsh is exactly WHO was on the OTHER end of the radio(s).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So again with out saying I am in support of the AA it is still entirely possible
>> that the Aircraft was out of communications for a few seconds when the first
>> attempts at contact were made.
Again. See above. John Burfiend himself SAID he was ‘copying that traffic’ ( the MAYDAY ) calls WHILE they were happening. He was just CHOOSING to not respond.
Could his ‘new’ suggestion about ‘antennas on bottoms of airplanes’ that he seems to be putting forth in a ‘Staff Ride’ just be more CYA on his part? Trying to say he really did NOT hear the calls… even though there are real-time recordings of him telling OPS1 Abel he WAS ‘copying that traffic’?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Because the Transmissions were on Air To Ground no one that herd them
>> responded waiting for the AA to respond.
This feels like ‘piling on’ at this point… but you, yourself, are now acknowledging the fact that we have RECORDINGS of guys with handhelds radio on the GROUND hearing ALL of that A2G radio traffic ‘loud and clear’… but you’re saying that even with that being the case it’s perfectly understandable why the AIRPLANE ( not on a drop run ) would NOT have heard the same transmissions?
I don’t buy it ( even without the recording of Burfiend saying he DID hear that traffic ).
SUMMARY
It’s hard to know what John Burfiend, ( Yarnell Air Attack and now USFS NAFRI Director ) is actually trying to ‘sell’ out there as an SME presenter in a staff ride… because we don’t have a copy of the SCRIPT he might be working from nor do we have the full ‘context’ of what he’s trying to say ‘out there’ to Staff Ride participants…
…but if he’s trying to say that whether or not an antenna is screwed into the top or the bottom of an airplane might be some causal factor in why 19 supposedly ‘professional’ wildland firefighters burned to death on his watch…
…I still say… Horseshit.
While some of what you say is mixed and confused.
Again I am not saying any thing to take any ones side only the information of some one who has been in the seat of a AA. What happens with Radio traffic
in that position and how it affects the overall air operation.
While you preach at us over assumptions remember we have no clue where Marsh was at any given time between 1604 and deployment.
When he had Communications with command was he in the Canyon????
I do not think so. If he had that Como. he would have been talking direct to OPS at the time of deployment.
Again my Information was only to add practical and personal information about the AA position and what happens to Radio transmissions and receptions.
Again the Arizona Tack Channels are assigned to Them by NIFC this keeps all fires in a separated Freq. from each other during the season and also meets ICS/FEMA requirements but the Freq. for Arizona State Normally the TACK Freq. do not transmit across the State or even to ADC. they remain local to the fire. The Air Freq. remain some what standard across the US. 168.625 and 123.125 Air to Ground may adjust to each Region or State and pre programed into most 16 channel portables.
The AA at time serves as both Lead Plain and AA it happens all the time for severial reasons and has for years it is not the best but it keeps the operation going.
One more tidbit I missed you know of course that the AA is using a head set that can blast your ear drums if some one is hollering into the mic. it become hard to understand what they are saying. Just a extra thought.
Copy that.
Your points ARE well taken, Bob.
Physics is physics.
But a ‘subtext’ of this entire conversation ( and of the points you are making about dead spots ) is that is just one more ( big ) reason WHY no one in their right mind should have descended into that box canyon, on that day, at that time, with a dynamic wind-driven wildfire less than a half mile away and already known to be ‘spotting’ ahead of itself.
Yes… the evidence does suggest that they may have lost the ability to communicate on any channel BUT the A2G channel once they dropped into that deathtrap… but that just ADDS to all the other evidence that what they were doing was an act of sheer stupidity, incompetence, and ‘depraved indifference’.
You are very correct with your above statement.
On thing I forgot to add on antennas.
Air craft are in the air the best place for a antenna is under the air craft
or under near the nose. most Helicopters I remember had antennas under the nose or some what facing front. all antennas on fixed wing tended to be under the plane.
It probably would have made no difference either way if the plane was out of site. the antenna pointing to the ground at low altitudes would restrict radio transmissions. and could as well have a lot of static in the reception.
Just more stuff I am remembering The Mountains are not always the best for any Radio receptions. Repeaters do not always hit every thing either. Its the Nature of wild land fire.
We do not know if Marsh even tried to talk on the Tack channel for OPS that could have well been his first try before Steed or Him went
to Air.
**
** SITE OF DEPLOYMENT USED TO BE AN OLD MINER’S CAMP?
I just wanted to let Gary Olson know that I haven’t forgotten his question down below regarding exactly HOW big the Granite Mountain deployment site really was… BEFORE and AFTER they did what little ‘clearing’ they actually had time for.
On the contrary… I’ve been working hard on another ‘Google Earth’ through-the-looking-glass video that will show everything… right down to exactly where each of the shelters was deployed ( as per the SAIR diagram of shelter placements )… and exactly what they had time to ‘cut out’ and what they did not.
The ‘key’ to figuring that out is that three of the GM Hotshots ( Carter, Ashcraft and Percin ) bascially had to deploy UNDERNEATH a ‘scrub oak’ that they didn’t even have time to cut down, and there is also a large AGAVE plant in the middle of the deployment site that helps mark the EXACT locations on the ground where all the shelters were deployed.
That ‘scrub oak’ tree and that AGAVE plant are visible in Google Earth imagery both BEFORE and AFTER the deployment… so it’s fairly easy to pinpoint EXACTLY where that 24 foot by 30 foot ‘square’ is which was the outer boundary of the rectangle that contained all the deployed shelters.
And yes… Gary… 24 by 30 feet is about the size of a ‘three car garage’.
I’m not quite finished with that ‘presentation’ yet… but I wanted to share something else I just discovered about the deployment site.
The more I looked at this… and kept comparing iterations of Google Earth imagery to see exactly what they had time to ‘cut down’ and what they did not… I kept noticing something.
Other than that AGAVE plant and some ground cactus plants… that area where they chose to deploy had remained mysteriously FREE of other ground vegetation going back YEARS, as far as Google Earth imagery goes.
It seemed ‘odd’ that the vegetation had not simply proliferated into that ‘clearing’ at some point… so I went on an extensive online search for any aerial photos that might have been taken of that exact deployment site area even PRIOR to it being captured by any satellite imagery.
As it turns out… there is an aerial photograph of the ‘deployment site’ area that was taken in 1968… and it shows what appears to be a “miner’s camp” occupying that exact location where the Granite Mountain hotshots decided to lay down.
That 1968 aerial photo is HERE…
http://historicaerials.com/?layer=0&zoom=15&lat=34.220278&lon=-112.7775
There is no ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ to reference… and the town of Yarnell itself was just a wide spot in the road… but once you orient yourself and find the ‘box canyon’ in the photo… you can clearly see that there was some kind of ‘camp’ right there where they deployed… complete with no less than TWO ROADS leading to it.
One road led NORTH from the Candy Cane Lane area, then took a LEFT and headed WEST straight out to the deployment site… following much the same path as the road they had to bulldoze on the night of June 30, 2013 so that the bodies could be retrieved from the deployment site.
The other road leads EAST, and away from whatever this ‘camp’ was… and it goes along the north side of the box canyon and exits towards the ‘Sesame Area’ to the northwest.
If you ZOOM DOWN onto the actual ‘deployment site’ ( circa 1968 ), you can clearly see why there seemed to have been a ‘halt’ in the vegetation growth at that exact spot.
Someone had manually CLEARED ( down to mineral soil ) that entire area, and there even appear to be some ‘structures’ erected on that very ‘clearing’ that would become ( 45 years later ) the place where Granite Mountain would deploy their shelters.
Another interesting thing about this photo is that what the SAIR itself would eventually call the ‘alternate escape route’ is even more CLEARLY defined in this 1968 photograph than it is in even the 2013 Google Satellite imagery.
That’s because there also appears to have been a HOUSE up there on the high ridge at that point where the ‘alternate escape route’ takes that turn from running north-south to then running east-west and down towards the Candy Can Lane area.
The HOUSE that was up there seems to be sitting at the exact point that is GOING to become the spot where the new trail that Arizona State Parks is building up from Highway 89 in order for the public to access the new ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park’.
I am now trying to find out if there’s any recorded ‘history’ about either that ‘house’ or that ‘mining camp’ that ( in 1968 ) was located exactly where the ‘deployment site’ is.
Followup…
If you click this link to see the 1968 aerial photo of the deployment site area…
http://historicaerials.com/?layer=0&zoom=15&lat=34.220278&lon=-112.7775
…the ‘map’ that first appears will be defaulting to the 2013 satellite imagery.
You have to CLICK on the ‘1968’ tab to the left of the map to actually ‘load up’ the 1968 imagery for the same location ( there at the deployment site ).
One more followup…
Once you have that ‘1968’ aerial image of the deployment site area loaded, the actual ‘deployment site’ is that obviously ‘cleared’ area in the center of the photo with the ‘two roads’ to leading to/from it.
But there is more to that ‘photo’ since it is ZOOMED on first appearance.
You can DRAG on the image with your mouse, and move to the LEFT ( EAST ) towards Yarnell. There is no ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ there yet… but if you keep dragging to the EAST you will see that the subdivision of ‘Glen Ilah’ had just been created… and the early ( DIRT ) versions of both Lakewood and Manzanita roads are clearly seen.
Absolutely fascinating and once again,…amazing work! Thank you.
About the size of a three car garage. How very sad.
The propaganda machine of the NWCG has done its work only to well.
I wonder if they are proud of what they accomplishment?
This is a rhetorical question that I’m sure the answer to is known, but I don’t actually want to read it.
Who got to be on the outside perimeter of that very small site?
And now I am going to demonstrate just how angry I am at reading what I already knew to be true.
Did the bodies of the crew who were on the outside at least help shield others from convective heat and the direct blowtorch flames? No.
Deployed under a scrub oak?
I feel sick to my stomach.
I pray the NWCG corrects their propaganda to reflect the lessons learned from this horrific tragedy.
Everyone says not all would have survived in the boulders. Yes…but that means some would have.
As I have said before, who would turn down the deal to have just one of the crew back.
There are many secondary causal factors to be found in this previously… unimaginable tragedy.
You would feel sicker if you stood at the very spot they deployed then look to the south to see they had ample time to get themselves amid the boulders that would have given them a clear area about the size of a foot ball field. They instead chose the turkey roasters (Bob Power’s term for fire blanket) which let them down. I think Marsh ran back to them likely from the boulders that would have saved them. He liked the high points for visual purposes–at least every time we saw him it was up on some boulders looking out at the situation. After he had blasted through that brush I can visualize him getting into the boulder area where he would have a clear view of the men on the two track and some view of the fire edge below him. He was watching it turned south so they were flanking the fire at that point. When it went more SW then more to the west then he knew they were going to be trapped. If the timing was right on the back burn that was going on at the Shrine road area, then when the wind changed to the SW that would have overtaken the ridge to the west of Shrine Road and beyond that ridge was a straight shot of dense manzanita right up to the basin they were in. Some photos you can look at have two smoke stacks–one distant that looks to be the original fire that was coming off the Weavers and one nearer that appears to be in the Shrine area. There is a possibility and seemingly high since the winds were bending trees in that video where zip torches were being used to light up a back fire. Anyone lighting a fire in the Shrine area would not have known that the GMHS crew was just over the ridge and about a mile away with dense dehydrated manzanita ready to go up the hill toward them.
Re: Deployment Site may have been an old miner’s camp…
Sonny (Tex) Gilligan said…
In 1919 into the 30s a sectioned area of Mormons settled there and there was a long decade plus of apache Indians killing women and children to that same spot.
Many bibles of the Mormon can still be dated back to that date touch the bible and pages brittle fall and crumble but still exist as well as author John MacLean saw evidence of Indian artifacts as we pointed it out to him. It was burned in a fire in the late 60s but still evidence today that area has history but miners camped on other ridges and near the old grader road.
Joy has old maps of the areas around her.
An old prospector gave them to her to show where the gold is before he died of renal failure.
**
** FOUR MONTHS ( AND COUNTING )
Just pointing out a dubious ‘anniversary’ here.
It is now FOUR MONTHS since the last PUBLIC meeting of the PUBLIC Arizona State taxpayer-funded ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Committee’ ( held last October 23, 2015 ).
There are still NO MINUTES from that PUBLIC meeting posted at the place where Arizona Law says they were supposed to be posted no more than 72 hours following any meeting where a quorum was present…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
The VOTE to actually ‘restrict public access’ to certain parts of the new Arizona State Park took place at the PRIOR meeting… and AGAINST the wishes of the only two actual ‘Wildland Firefighters’ on the PUBLIC Board ( who both voted NO to the proposed ‘restricted access’ )…
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney.
Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
Those are also the ‘meeting minutes’ where we see the deployment area still being officially referred to ( in writing ) by this PUBLIC Board as “the gravesites”.
So you have to wonder… if those previous meeting minutes were finally made public… then what are they still trying to HIDE from PUBLIC view with regards to this last meeting back on October 23, 2015?
Maybe they will finally obey Arizona LAW and we will find out… BEFORE this “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” self-terminates at the end of this year ( on December 31, 2016 ).
BTW: There is still also absolutely no mention of when the ‘next’ meeting of this PUBLIC Board might be… or if there ever WILL be another meeting… even though they are shooting for a June 30, 2016 DEDICATION ceremony for the new PUBLIC State Park..
And no word whether the PUBLIC will even be INVITED to the June 30, 2016 ‘dedication’ of this new PUBLIC park… totally paid for with taxpayer dollars.
It is interesting to see that the difficult trail being constructed from Hwy 89 that leads up the west side of the Weaver Mountain to top out at the two track. Incidentally they are building the exact escape route that would have saved the 19 GMHS had they followed that trail down instead of their wild attempt to outguess the wildfire which they attempted to out guess and outrun by heading down directly parallel to the path of the wild fire.
Just who determined to make a trail like that? It will be extremely difficult to climb out that way and will eliminate most people that would want to see the site. Perhaps that is the idea–make it so difficult that very few will take the hike to see how easily those men could have escaped death had their bosses had any inkling of how easily they could have dropped down (not up) from the top of Weaver Range to Hwy 89 and safety. Instead they were ordered down into a sure death trap while the alternative would be to take the route that now is being made into a trail–an easy way out (for wild land fighters) but a very difficult way up and in for tourists.
Joy and I will take the hike for those that can not make it or are not inclined to take a harsh trail up a mountain. We will take photos along the way and also see how close it goes to the exact way we escaped the fire as well.
Reply to Robert the Second post on February 24, 2016 at 5:28 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> You posted: “Have you actually SEEN these infamous ‘court rulings’…
>> as in… the actual CONTENT of the actual ‘settlement’ between (only)
>> the families represented by attorney Patrick McGroder and Arizona Forestry?”
>>
>> I have NOT seen any of the court rulings and/or the actual content.
>> That would be worth researching.
Well then… what about this statement of yours…
————————————————————————-
On February 23, 2016 at 10:09 pm, RTS said…
YH Fire Staff Ride Development Group update
AZ Forestry contracted with OMNA International, LLC. to design a
Staff Ride ordered in one of the Court rulings.
————————————————————————–
Keyphrase: “…ordered in one of the Court rulings”.
The way you just ‘stated’ that as if it was a ‘fact’… it made it sound like you had already ‘done that research’.
Now you say you didn’t ( do that research ).
So is there anything else you can tell us about where that statement of yours is ‘coming from’ so we have a chance of accepting it as credible?
Remember… both attorney Patrick McGroder and Arizona Forester said at the ‘press conference’ only that they were ‘thinking’ about ‘maybe’ having a ‘Staff Ride’. If it was already codified in the settlement that Arizona Forestry MUST produce a ‘Staff Ride’ as part of the settlement… then it’s not likely they would have been waffling about it like that at the press conference itself.
Even if the ‘answer’ here is just “I talked with someone who says THEY swear that THEY have read the actual settlement documents and that a ‘Staff Ride’ WAS ordered by the Court as part of the settlement”…
…that, at least, would help bring it closer to being ‘credible’.
Ditto for this statement of yours…
————————————————————————-
On February 23, 2016 at 10:09 pm, RTS said…
The families MUST approve of the final YH Fire Staff Ride product, whatever it is.
————————————————————————-
You also made that sound like you had ‘read it’ in the settlement agreement(s) and that we’re also supposed to take that as an absolute ‘fact’.
Is there anything else you can tell us about THAT tidbit that might allow us to treat it with more credibility than just “hearsay”?
Same source for both statements?
Someone who HAS read the ACTUAL Court document(s)?
As much as I think BOTH of these things *might* be true…
1. Court documents ORDERED AZF to come up with a ‘Staff Ride’.
2. Court documents ORDERED AZF to get families to approve ‘Staff Ride Content’.
I’d like to hear a little bit more about where YOU heard these things, since you now say you have NOT seen these ‘settlement documents’ yourself.
It’s ABSURD to think that ‘family members’ would be able to actually EDIT the content of a ‘Staff Ride’ whose sole purpose SHOULD be to educate fire line supervisors about what REALLY happened on June 30, 2013, in order to have the best chance at preventing it from happening again ( in the same manner, anyway )…
…but that wouldn’t be the first time we would have had to apply the word ABSURD to things that have happened before, during and after this horrible tragedy.
test comment
Looking at the men who designed that trail to get into to look at the sit, I have no wonder how this mentality got the GMHS killed.
That trail is a disaster for injuries and accidents for people ist is supposedly designed for. Unaccustomed to those types of treacherous hikes, people interested in seeing the site will certainly suffer various injuries from falls to snake bite.
WTKTT,
Here are several links to several articles and documents involving the YH Fire Staff Ride and other YH Fire references, including the ASM issue
Here’s a link to a June 28, 2014 Daily Courier article stating that the YH Fire SAIT
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=133272
“The Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation (SAIT) commissioned by the Arizona State Forestry Division delivered seven recommendations, with three directed at the state and four directed at NWCG.”
“The SAIT report asked the state to … DEVELOP A WILDFIRE STAFF RIDE AT THE YARNELL HILL FIRE DEATH SITE. In staff rides, survivors and others teach other firefighters about what happened and how to avoid it in the future.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
SAIT SAIR page 50: “3. The Team recommends that the State of Arizona work cooperatively with its fire cooperators to DEVELOP A WILDLAND FIRE STAFF RIDE FOR THE YARNELL HILL FIRE INCIDENT. The staff ride is a process of conveying the lessons learned from this incident for future fire leaders.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
In the 2015 National IHC Steering Committee Conference Notes;January 20 – 22, 2016 Boise, ID
“Leadership Subcommittee Update (Shane Olpin)
-Lots of staff ride development is happening
-Developing Yarnell Hill staff ride
-Getting ready to do the Alpha delivery with cadre
-Support to the developmental IHC crews (Redding, Redmond) – leadership development
-IDIQ contract with Omna International to help provide products in leadership (Forest Service)
-Discussion of doing a staff ride at Yarnell Hill for the Hotshot group as well as doing a mixed staff ride with Hotshot group and smokejumpers, IMTs etc. to improve communications across organizations.”
In an Arizona Central article dated June 30, 2015, “Forestry agreed to make a “good faith effort” to carry out reforms requested by hotshot families. However, the settlement says implementation is not a mandatory component and up to the “sole discretion” of the agency director.”
“State Forester Jeff Whitney, a former hotshot, said his agency will strive to implement dozens of changes recommended by families that had filed suit.”
“Records show Forestry will ask the [NWCG] to do a question-and-answer session AND A STAFF RIDE-ALONG to glean information about the fire.”
Not sure if a staff ride-along is the same as a Staff Ride.
This was interesting in the same article: ‘[Roxanne] Warneke said she believes HER HUSBAND WOULD ONLY HAVE ABANDONED A SAFE RIDGE AND HIKED INTO DANGER IF HE WAS DIRECTED TO DO SO. “ORDERS,” she explained. “HE WAS A MARINE USED TO FOLLOWING ORDERS.”‘ (EMPHASIS ADDED)
In a September 29, 2013 Daily Courier article ” The state should create a wildland fire “staff ride” for the Yarnell Hill wildfire.”
“In staff rides, firefighters go to the site of wildfire tragedies and hear what happened from those involved, as well as the lessons they learned.”
And this regarding the ASM platform issue: “The state should ask the NWCG to provide guidance about when to separate the Aerial Supervision Module and air attack functions.”
“One plane with a pilot and crew member was conducting both functions on the Yarnell Hill wildfire, leading larger planes to retardant drop sites while trying to conduct aerial reconnaissance. When the fire blew up, the crew faced multiple missions at once.”
The Western States Fire Managers held their 28th Annual Meeting in March 2014 at the
Marriott Courtyard King Kamehameha Hotel in Kailua-Kona, HI of all places.
Here are some of the excerpts from their minutes: “BLM did staff ride at Yarnell but DNR was shut down from participating. Did Fire Committee know about that? Why? Bob [Harrington, Montana State Forester] not aware. Long term [it] will be important to determine rules of engagement for staff ride. [Former AS Forester] Scott Hunt requested cancelled DNR because of lawsuits announced that week.”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on February 25, 2016 at 12:57 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here are several links to several articles and documents
>> involving the YH Fire Staff Ride and other YH Fire references,
>> including the ASM issue
Thank you for all that. Seriously.
It’s a confusing thing. I’m now quite a bit confused about ‘ownership’ here, as well as what is REQUIRED and what remains OPTIONAL.
I know you haven’t seen the ‘actual’ settlement documents. I’m not sure who really HAS seen them other than Jeff Whitney, the attorneys, and ONLY those family members who were being represented by Patrick McGroder, specifically. Those are the only family members that Arizona Forestry actually ‘settled’ with.
It would still be interesting to know what that ‘settlement’ really entailed.
I’m almost certain that it also probably has a very interesting ‘non-disclosure’ clause in it that probably severely limits the ability of any of the McGroder-represented family members from talking about either the settlement itself or ( possibly ) even any ‘new’ information that comes their way as a result of these ( supposedly promised ) ‘Staff Rides’ and/or Q/A session(s).
Mark Brnovich looks like the kind of lawyer that would NEVER agree to any kind of ‘settlement’ with anyone unless he also gets a strict ‘non-disclosure’ protocol along with it.
But I also think he forgot that this is NOT ‘Exxon Mobile versus the families of dead Arizona Civil Servants”. It’s a settlement that was made between the STATE of Arizona and those families. I think whatever the full ‘terms’ of that ‘settlement’ are ( made WITH and involving public monies ) should also ( one day? ) be made PUBLIC.
I’m seeing a lot of ‘suggestions’ and ‘recommendations’ for a ‘Staff Ride’… but I’m still not sure we can call it ‘Court ordered’ until we see those actual ‘settlement’ documents.
And as for that curious part where the families ( supposedly? ) have to “approve the content of the Staff Ride”… I’d also still love to know where that is actually codified ( if at all ) and what it actually ‘covers’.
Example: If the same subset of family members that were allowed to achieve a ‘restricted access’ policy to parts of the new Arizona State park because they actually consider the deployment area to contain ‘gravesites’ have their way with the ‘Staff Ride’… then who is to say they won’t even want to allow the ‘Staff Ride’ to have access to those same ‘restricted areas’?
And it looks like the ‘ownership’ thing is also a mess, whether this ‘Staff Ride’ was ‘Court ordered’, or not.
I’m seeing a lot of different ‘agencies ( both State and Federal ) seeming to think they have the RIGHT to be involved and participating… but who really ‘owns’ this thing?
And who is actually PAYING for it.
The development ( and implementation ) of any kind of ‘Staff Ride’ like this doesn’t happen for free. SOMEONE is ‘picking up the costs’.
Is that ALL on the ‘State of Arizona’ ( and its taxpayers )… or is there also FEDERAL money involved and pulling from the National Level taxpayer base?
And WHO gets to decide who is ( or isn’t ) allowed to actually be part of the ‘audience’ for any/all of these ‘Staff Rides’?
The whole ‘Exclude BLM’ thing is fascinating unto itself.
So thanks again for that research.
This is all going to “come out in the wash” sooner or later, because every single thing that is happening involves PUBLIC MONEY.
I just hope that ‘wash cycle’ doesn’t turn out to be more “dirty laundry”.
WTKTT,
I am in the process of filing a Records Request with the ASF for whatever they may have relative to the YH Fire Staff Ride Development, so we’ll have to wait and see.
Next will be searching relevant AZ Court dockets.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
February 25, 2016 at 4:23 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I am in the process of filing a Records Request with
>> the ASF for whatever they may have relative to the
>> YH Fire Staff Ride Development, so we’ll have to wait and see.
I would be sure to *specifically* mention ( in the FOIA request ) “any and all ‘scripts’ or ‘outlines’ or ‘talking point’ documents directly related to the Staff Ride”.
They have already had a ‘Beta’ ( last week, on Feb 18, 2016 ).
Rumor has it they are shooting for a second ‘Alpha’ walk-thru in April.
So that means they have ALREADY ‘written’ the ‘scripts’ or the ‘talking points’ for all the SMEs who are ‘presenting’ at each of the ‘stands’ ( stops ) along the walking tour.
I really doubt they are letting the SMEs doing all the ‘presentations’ just ‘wing it’. They MUST, at least, have ‘talking guides’ or ‘talking points’ written out so that the SMEs at least do all of the following…
1. Be sure to mention the things that officials WANT the ‘audience’ to hear and/or believe about what happened.
2. Be sure to NOT mention the things that officials do NOT WANT the ‘audience’ to hear and/or know.
3. Suggested ( or mandated? ) answers to potential questions.
For all intents and purposes… those ‘scripts’ or ‘talking guides’ are ALREADY ‘public document’ since they have ALREADY been generated using public money… and they should be included in their response to your FOIA / Arizona Open Records request.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Next will be searching relevant AZ Court dockets.
If Mark Brnovich is the kind of lawyer I think he is… then you can be pretty sure he has made the settlement document itself a ‘restricted’ ( sealed ) document and NOT willy-nilly included in any of the PUBLICLY available Court Documents.
I really do believe he sees all this as no different than ‘Exxon Mobile versus the families of dead civil servants’… and he believes he has the RIGHT ( and the duty? ) to HIDE these documents from the PUBLIC.
So good luck ( and good hunting ).
Followup…
Getting back to your statement that the ‘families must approve the content of the Staff Ride’…
As unbelievable as it might seem that ‘family members’ would get to EDIT the content of an official Arizona Forestry ( in cooperation with U.S. Forestry NAFRI and ‘Wildland Lessons Learned Center’? ) sponsored ‘Staff Ride’ for one of the greatest losses of life on a single fire in Wildland Firefighting history…
…I am, in fact, still willing to believe that is somehow ‘codified’ into the ‘settlement’ documents between Arizona Forestry and (only) those family members represented by one attorney ( Patrick McGroder ).
So let’s say that IS ‘a fact’… and a Judge has ORDERED Arizona Forestry to get the approval of ‘family members’ for the ‘content’ of this official ‘Yarnell Staff Ride’.
How is that actually going to work?
First off… WHO are to be considered ‘family members’, in this case? Is that codified in the ‘settlement’ agreement as well?
DIRECT family members only? ( that would exclude Andrew Ashcraft’s mother, Deborah Pfingston ).
Parents included… but NOT ‘grandparents’?
Brothers included… but not cousins?
What?
And what if only 1 or 2 individuals end up ‘objecting’ to any of the content of the ‘presentations’ to be delivered at the ‘stands’ by the SMEs?
Does a ‘thumbs down’ from just 1 or 2 ‘family members’ get some of the presentation(s) tossed into the toilet?
I know you don’t know these answers. I’m just asking the questions.
In the case of how that small subset of family members managed to influence and set the actual ‘access policy’ for the new, upcoming Arizona State ( PUBLIC ) park… the process was that they ‘allowed’ only one of the ‘family’ reps serving on the Board ( Amanda Marsh ) to go off and do unsupervised, informal ‘polling’ of the ‘family members’… and then Ms. Beno Marsh was supposed to just come back to the next Board meeting and just TELL them what the ‘families’ were thinking.
There was no documentation on this. It was all just whatever Ms. Beno Marsh was ‘telling’ them she did and/or found out.
Even the Board itself realized, after the fact, that this wasn’t the proper way to have gone about this and in the last meeting minutes that have been released… we see them all agreeing that in the future… (quote) “All interactions with family members must be more formalized”.
But the cows had left the barn ( or got INTO the barn? ) already.
The ‘informal polling’ process had already led to that VOTE whereby 8 members of the Board voted to LIMIT public access to parts of the new PUBLIC Arizona Park… and 2 of the Board members voted AGAINST any such ‘access restrictions’.
Ironically… the 2 dissenting votes were from the only two official Wildlandn Firefighting representatives serving on the PUBLIC Board… Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney and former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
So fast-forward to now.
Now they need ‘family member approval’ again for the ‘Staff Ride’.
Are they going to just let one ‘family rep’ do the same kind of ‘informal’ and ‘unsupervised’ polling of family members that they let Ms. Beno Marsh get away with over the park access?
There’s really only TWO ways they could go about getting this ‘family member approval’ for the ‘Staff Ride’ content itself.
1. GIVE the family members the SCRIPTS and/or the ‘talking point documents’ that have already been written for the ‘Staff Ride’, and get each one to red-line the WRITTEN documents.
2. Have all the family members actually DO the ‘Staff Ride’ and actually LISTEN to the SME presentations at the ‘stands’, and then seek their approval/objections at the standard post-ride dinner.
And number 2 means they would have to do that BEFORE calling the ‘Staff Ride’ out-of-beta-alpha-testing.
If they have already had the ‘Beta’ test-walk… then that means it’s very likely the next ‘Alpha’ test-walk before everything is finalized will be specifically for the ‘family members’… so they can get their ( Court ordered? ) approval before going ‘live’ on June 30, 2016.
It also means that there might end up being TWO sets of PUBLIC documents that they should be required to return in response to your FOIA / Arizona Open Records request.
1. The Staff Ride ‘scripts’ or ‘talking point’ documents as they were for the ‘Beta’ that has ALREADY happened, last week, on Feb 18.
2. The Staff Ride ‘scripts’ or ‘talking point’ documents as they WILL exist AFTER the family members have had this chance they are supposed to have to EDIT the presentation content.
WTKTT:
The government facilitators will employ a variation of the Delphi Method to achieve their goals.
At the end of the day, unbeknownst to the families, they will have accepted the terms of the offer of contract and the truth of the Yarnell Hill fire will be lost in time forever. Unless something happens to interrupt the ‘means to an end.’
Thanks for your great work here!
Woodsman
Dr. Putnam had this to say about less-than-truthful SAIR’s and Staff Rides based on them.
“Once firefighter and investigator lies about fatality fires get written into official reports, staff rides only turn the lies into dramas. Even if the Truth later seeps out, the staff rides keep regurgitating the same original lies. Net effect is firefighters keep dying for the same reasons thus NWCG and all its ilk are truly guilty of negligent homicide. We lie to protect our imaginary personal, crew and agency images and real firefighters keep suffering and dying to nourish those collective fragile egos.”
“Both Gary Olson and I told the real truth at the Battlement Creek Staff ride and none of it ever got incorporated into that staff ride. There is very little learning at the Lessons Learned Centers. Calling NWCG a ship of fools is an act of kindness…after all they were once firefighters. Same old shit but still stinky, disgusting and deadly.”
WTKTT,
Here’s more on the Court settlement dealing with ”
“The settlement announced today by Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich ….
“According to the Arizona Republic, the settlement has three key components:
….
‘State forestry has agreed to implement “enhanced safety training” for command personnel, improve its communication systems, and work toward “greater transparency.”’ Source: Fire Law blog. “Yarnell Hill LODD Settlement Announced” dated June 29, 2015.
I think it is reasonable to conclude that the ‘ENHANCED SAFETY TRAINING FOR COMMAND PERSONNEL’ is very likely the proposed YH Fire Staff Ride.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on February 25, 2016 at 7:16 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here’s more on the Court settlement dealing with…
>>
>> “The settlement announced today by Arizona Attorney
>> General Mark Brnovich ….
>>
>> “According to the Arizona Republic, the settlement
>> has three key components:
>> ….
>> ‘State forestry has agreed to implement “enhanced
>> safety training” for command personnel, improve its
>> communication systems, and work toward “greater
>> transparency.”’
>>
>> Source: Fire Law blog. “Yarnell Hill LODD
>> Settlement Announced” dated June 29, 2015.
>>
>> I think it is reasonable to conclude that the ‘ENHANCED
>> SAFETY TRAINING FOR COMMAND PERSONNEL’ is very
>> likely the proposed YH Fire Staff Ride.
Perhaps… but compare that ‘copy’ from that media article to the words that came out of Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney’s mouth at the press conference, and then what attorney Patrick McGroder said right after that…
** FROM THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE SETTLEMENT PRESS
** CONFERENCE THAT TOOK PLACE ON JUNE 29, 2015.
Jeff Whitney = Arizona State Forester ( appointed by the Governor ).
Pat McGroder = Prescott attorney that was only representing SOME family members.
In the following exchange, at the end of the press conference, both Whitney and McGroder make separate ( specific ) references to some kind of a (possible) ‘Staff Ride’ product.
Whitney actually does seem to indicate that they ( Arizona Forestry ) were definitely going to try and come up with a ‘Staff Ride’… but he does NOT make it sound like he is being ORDERED ( via the settlement itself ) to do so, nor does he ( himself ) make any direct connection between that ‘Staff Ride’ and any kind of ‘Court Ordered’ responsibilities to get the ‘families’ to APPROVE it.
McGroder is more vague. He makes it sound like there *might* be some kind of ‘ride’… and it *might* be the place/time where Arizona Forestry has to live up to its apparent PROMISE to answer any/all questions from family members… but even he ( McGroder ) waffles about and doesn’t seem sure.
————————————————
+35:56
( Reporter 1 ): Could you explain… this is what’s leaving me confused is… the changes that you guys are offering in return… promises made… how can they have an impact when you’re part of an interagency system that, for example, doesn’t BELIEVE in transparency? The Forest Service won’t even let its firefighters discuss this… and they conduct investigations that… their very statement about the investigation is “We don’t wanna find out what went wrong”.
+36:21
( Jeff Whitney ): Uh… I think you may mis-characterize the posture and the findings of the Serious Accident Investigation.
Um… The Wildland fire community is… uh… a large one.
Uh… I have an opportunity in my position to… uh… carry the… the banner and the interest that all in the wildland community desire in terms of firefighter and public safety… uh… but I think I can bring… as we develop a “Lessons Learned”… uh… document out of this and prepare and provide a staff ride that we’re gonna be able to provide a learning opportunity… uh… to… to take it to that extent.
Thank you.
( Whitney then turns his back on the reporters and leaves the podium ).
( Even as the reporters are directing more questions to the podium… )
( Jeff Whitney and Pat McGroder have this exchange between themselves )
( and decide they are DONE taking questions… )
( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ): I think we’re done.
( Pat McGroder to Jeff Whtiney ): Yea.
( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ):Yea.
( Pat McGroder to Jeff Whitney ): Last one, yea.
+37:05
( Reporter 1 ): This is occurring WITHOUT the sworn testimony of Brendan McDonough… and… are you… are you content with that?
( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ): This one’s in your (world). ( It’s about Brendan ).
+37:13
( Pat McGroder ): Uh… I’ll answer that question.
Uh… at some time… uh… Mr. McDonough may or may not chose to publicy describe what he saw… what he heard that day.
Uh… Mr. McDonough has an attorney at this point in time.
But in terms of today… whether it be Mr. McDonough or the Blue Ridge firefighters… the purpose of today was to let YOU know of the enormity of the commitment that State Forester Whitney has made to sit down with our families… at great lengths… at great expense… and answer their questions, describe what happened… whether it be informally or formally… or in the case of a… a ‘ride’.
So we’re very comfortable in terms of the commitment to the State Forester.
———————————————————-
So I still really wonder exactly what the documents that both parties ( Arizona Forestry and those family members represented by McGroder ) actually SIGNED actually SAYS.
I wonder if there is a CLAUSE in there to the effect of…
“…And if any of these ENHANCED SAFETY TRAINING and LEARNING PRODUCTS turns out to be a bunch of hot, runny bullshit… this settlement shall be considered VOID and no longer in effect”.
**
** JOHN BURFIEND WENT TO USFS NAFRI JUST 2 MONTHS AFTER YARNELL
This is just a little more information with regards to how ( and WHEN ) John Burfiend became the new DIRECTOR of the USFS National Advanced Fire and Resource Institute ( NAFRI ), located in Tucson, Arizona.
As early as August of 2013 ( just 2 months after the Yarnell Tragedy ), John Burfiend was already showing up on NWCG websites as the new official ‘Liason’ between NWCG and the USFS National Advanced Fire and Resource Institute ( NAFRI ), where the actual “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned” website is physically located.
The following is the page on the NWCG website which specifies that as early as early as August, 2013, John Burfiend was still a USFS employee, but he was now at NAFRI and was the new ‘Liason’ between NWCG and the NWCG’s own ‘Operations and Training Committee’
http://www.nwcg.gov/committees/operations-and-training-committee/roster/liaison/john-burfiend
——————————————————————————————-
Home / Committee Organization / Operations and Training Committee /
Roster / Liaison / John Burfiend
John Burfiend
Member First Name: John
Member Last Name: Burfiend
Committee, Subgroup or Unit, Board, Group or Team: Operations and Training Committee
Committee Role: Liaison
Agency: USDA Forest Service
Represent Agency: National Advanced Fire & Resource Institute
Start Date: August, 2013
Office Phone: 520-799-8750
Email: jburfiend (at) fs.fed.us
Job Title: NAFRI Director
Group Directory: OTC
——————————————————————————————-
Shortly after that… John Burfiend became the ‘chosen one’ to become the new DIRECTOR of the USFS National Advanced Fire and Resource Institute ( NAFRI ).
You can SEE his ‘fast rise’ to becoming the DIRECTOR of NAFRI just by searching the NWCG websites for his name.
He is shown attending the regular ( and ongoing ) NWCG ‘Operations and Training Committee’ meetings… but you watch his title change to eventually become the actual DIRECTOR of USFS NAFRI.
By April 1, 2014, the NWCG OTC Training Committee meeting minutes are listing ‘John Burfiend’ as the ‘Program Director’ at NAFRI.
30 days later, at the very next MWCG OTC Training Committee meeting in May of 2014, John Burfiend is now being listed as the actual full DIRECTOR of NAFRI.
* A Search on the entire NWCG site for “John Burfiend” produces lots of hits…
http://www.nwcg.gov/search/node/John%20Burfiend
* Search results
OTC-MT = Shorthand for “NWCG Operations and Training Committee Meeting”
——————————————————————————————-
* OTC-MT-2014-04-01
From the ‘minutes’ for this NWCG OTC meeting…
NWCG Training Committee – Meeting Minutes
April 1, 2014 1300-1500 MT
Mission: The mission of the NWCG OTC Committee is to provide guidance and oversight for WILDAND FIRE TRAINING to assist agencies in meeting their workforce development goals.
NAFRI – Mike
The Apprenticeship Program is almost finished. John Burfiend was selected as the NAFRI Program Manager (Assistant Director, NWFTC) position; his reporting date is May 5th. Mike will see if he can join the TC meetings in May.
* OTC-MT-2014-05-05
John Burfiend is now listed as ‘NAFRI Director’, and a ‘conference call guest’ at this NWCG meeting.
* OTC-MT-2014-06-03
John Burfiend is listed as ‘NAFRI Director’, and ‘in attendance’ at this NWCG meeting.
* OTC-MT-2014-09-02
John Burfiend is listed as ‘NAFRI Director’, and ‘in attendance’ at this NWCG meeting.
* OTC-MT-2014-10-07
John Burfiend is listed as ‘NAFRI Director’, and ‘in attendance’ at this NWCG meeting.
* OTC-MT-2015-01-06
John Burfiend is listed as ‘NAFRI Director’, but was ‘absent’ from this NWCG meeting.
————————————————————————————————-
SUMMARY
So even just 60 days ( or less ) after the Yarnell Hill tragedy ( in August of 2013 ), John Burfiend decided to keep his feet on the ground and take a ‘desk job’ working at the USFS NAFRI facility in Tucson, Arizona.
He remained a USFS employee but was, apparently, affected enough by what happened in Yarnell ( and his role in it? ) that he decided to stop actively ‘flying’ or ‘training’ anyone in the air, like he was doing in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
NOTE: August of 2013 was exactly the same time that Arizona ADOSH investigators were trying as hard as they could to actually INTERVIEW both John Burfiend and Thomas French of ‘Bravo 33’. The SAIT was able to interview them… and that’s where those dodgy ‘interview notes’ with them came from ( which remain a confusing, unverified mess ), but the Arizona ADOSH ‘workplace fatality investigators’ were NEVER allowed to interview either Burfiend or French, despite repeated attempts and official ‘Touhy’ requests submitted to the U.S. Forestry Service.
So Burfiend ‘jumped’ to USFS NAFRI at the same exact time ADOSH was submitting the ‘Touhy’ subpoena requests to interview him.
Burfiend quickly became the actual DIRECTOR of the USFS NAFRI program, and is now the direct USFS representative for NAFRI at all of the NWCG Wildland Fire ‘Operations and Training’ Committee meetings.
And Burfiend now appears to have direct control/influence on what appears on the ‘Wildfire Lessons Learned’ online websites… since that program is ‘sponsored’ by the facility he now directs ( NAFRI ) and the actual ‘Wildfire Lessons Learned’ Servers and websites are, in fact, physically located at his NAFRI facility in Tucson.
Burfiend is now ALSO the USFS NAFRI representative attending all of the official IHC ( Interagency Hotshot Crew ) Steering Committee meetings.
And when he attended the 2014 IHC Steering Committee meeting in November of 2014 is when he told them the following…
From the minutes of that 2014 IHC Committee meeting…
—————————————————————–
National IHC Steering Committee Conference 18 – 20 November 2014
** Wildland Lessons Learned Center Update ( Russo, Dotson )
John Burfiend new Director at NAFRI spoke ( to the IHC Committee )…
“Given Yarnell Hills Fire tragedy this is a good time for Management to start accepting the risk that the on the ground folks are accepting everyday. Urged IHC overhead to make the leap to management.”
—————————————————————–
Burfiend seemed to be saying TWO different things at that IHC meeting.
1. “…this is a good time for Management to start accepting the risk that the on the ground folks are accepting everyday”
What does Burfiend mean by that?
That ‘Management’ should get up off their assess and stop sitting in air-conditioned classrooms at the Peeples Valley Model Creek Elementary School and get back out on the firelines?
2. “…Urged IHC overhead to make the leap to management.”
Again… what the heck is Burfiend trying to say THERE?
That ‘because of what happened in Yarnell’… he thinks that ‘Interagency Hotshot Crew’ Superintendents and Assistant Superintendents’ should all ‘make the leap’ to becoming higher level managers in the U.S. Forestry system… or they should all become OPS and ‘Incident Commanders’, or something?
He is saying I think that Managers need to understand what risks they are putting putting crews in, and accept the responsibility for the Safety of the crews under them
In other words do not rely on the crews to understand their own safety be proactive as a OPS or IC.
—It really use to be that way—
Bob,
I agree on the need for Managers to understand what risks their Crews are dealing with.
WTKTT,
The “‘because of what happened in Yarnell’… he thinks that ‘Interagency Hotshot Crew’ Superintendents and Assistant Superintendents’ should all ‘make the leap’ to becoming higher level managers in the U.S. Forestry system… or they should all become OPS and ‘Incident Commanders’, or something?”
Yes, on both accounts. This is NOT something new and tied directly to the YH Fire. Both of these have been around for a long time. The need to move up into management to Assistant and/or Fire Management Officers at the District and Forest levels AND also to move up in their NWCG IQCS Qualifications as IMT and/or Single Resource overhead, particularly as IC’s and Operations personnel, e.g. OPS, Branch Directors, Division Supervisors, etc.
This is nothing new.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
February 24, 2016 at 5:10 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Yes, on both accounts. This is NOT something new and tied directly
>> to the YH Fire. Both of these have been around for a long time.
I suppose so, yes… but that ‘summary’ of what John Burfiend said to the Interagency Hotshot Crew ( IHC ) Steering Committee made it sound like it *might* have been part and parcel of the same “Given Yarnell Hills Fire tragedy” comments NAFRI Director John Burfiend was making to that IHC Steering Committee.
All the ‘minutes’ report him saying is…
“Given Yarnell Hills Fire tragedy this is a good time for Management to start accepting the risk that the on the ground folks are accepting everyday. Urged IHC overhead to make the leap to management.”
I can’t find an actual ‘transcript’ of that 2014 IHC Steering Committee Meeting.
It sounds like he have even ‘more to say’ than just the ‘minutes’ are reporting and it might have led to a lively discussion amongst those IHC committee members.
Do you have anyone in your ‘grapevine’ who either serves on that IHC Steering Committee, or might have heard what ‘else’ Burfiend had to say to them, or what they ( IHC people ) might have said back to HIM in response?
>> RTS also wrote…
>>
>> The need to move up into management to Assistant and/or
>> Fire Management Officers at the District and Forest levels AND
>> also to move up in their NWCG IQCS Qualifications as IMT and/or
>> Single Resource overhead, particularly as IC’s and Operations
>> personnel, e.g. OPS, Branch Directors, Division Supervisors, etc.
>>
>> This is nothing new.
I suppose not.
Leave us not forget what was actually ‘going down’ in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
At exactly 4:32 PM on June 30, 2013, a former long-time Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent turned OPS level contractor ( Paul Musser ) was calling another Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent turned DIVS contractor and was inquiring about his Hotshot Crew’s ‘availability’ to get to Yarnell and help protect structures.
So right there we have two Hotshot-Supts ‘moving up in the world’ and interacting with each other. The fact that they were both Hotshot-Supts didn’t prevent the tragedy, however.
** THE FIRST PART OF HIS BURFIEND’S STATEMENT
What’s your take on this FIRST part of what NAFRI Director Burfiend was trying to say to that IHC Steering Committee?…
“Given Yarnell Hills Fire tragedy this is a good time for Management to start accepting the risk that the on the ground folks are accepting everyday.” ( John Burfiend, November 18, 2014 ).
There’s no doubt that whatever he was trying to say there… it WAS directly tied ( in some way ) to the Yarnell tragedy.
It sounds very much like something coming from someone who was directly involved in what happened that day… and he has come out of it with an opinion that ‘Management needs to take more responsibility’… as if he knows more than what he has been willing to say ( so far ) about what really happened that day.
It has still never been fully verified whether or not ‘Bravo 33’ ever actually responded to OPS1 Todd Abel’s request for them to actually ‘fly down and check on Granite Mountain’.
OPS1 Todd Abel testified that it was done… and Thomas French and John Burfiend absolutely ‘flew down’ to the south side of the fire ( at his request ) and ‘checked on them’ and VERIFIED that Granite Mountain was ‘in the black’ and not ‘moving’ anywhere.
From Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview on August 22, 2013…
———————————————————————————–
A: Bravo 33 is kind of trying to tie stuff in to keep it out of those structures. And I said I need you to run down, uh, south and check on Granite – Division Alpha and Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge. He said copy that. He said I got – he goes what’s going on? I go now the winds are getting squirrely down there, they’re in the black, everybody’s good. He said okay I got two more SEATs to drop and I’ll buzz down there.
Q1: Okay.
A: So he dropped the other two SEATs. So you know you’re talking – I don’t know – you got 3:45 to 4 o’clock was probably wind change. Me and Eric having the conversation was probably right in that same timeframe. Yeah, I’d say that’s probably pretty close.
Q1: Okay.
A: So and then John ( Burfiend ) made a run down there, everybody looked good, they were in the black, no, you know ev- no issues, no nothing. So ev-everybody was good.
———————————————————————————–
However… the sketchy SAIT interview notes with French and Burfiend does NOT confirm that this ever actually happened. Those SAIT inteview notes still suggest the opposite… that it was French/Burfiend who asked OPS1 Abel if they should ‘go and check on Granite Mountain’ and OPS1 Abel said “No need. They are SAFE”.
From the SAIT Yarnell Investigation Notes ( YIN ) document.
SAIT interview with ‘Bravo 33’ – Thomas French and John Burfiend…
———————————————————————————-
I heard something about a crew being in a safety zone. Called ops and asked “do we stop and go look for the crew?” Ops said “no, they are safe, it’s Granite Mountain”. I didn’t know that Blue Ridge was there until we were home watching the news.
———————————————————————————-
So do you think the latter is correct… and their offer to ‘go check’ was actually ‘called off’ by OPS1 Abel… and that might have anything to do with Burfiend telling the IHC Steering Committee?…
“Given Yarnell Hills Fire tragedy this is a good time for Management to start accepting the risk that the on the ground folks are accepting everyday.” ( John Burfiend, November 18, 2014 ).
As RTS said the move up in management has been around for a long time.
I would venture most Federal HS Superintendents are at DIVS and OPS2
before they ever leave the HS crew to other jobs.
As for my self I was a DIVS trainee when on the Crew and my Superintendent was a DIVS. many HS overhead transferred to forests at Asst. or District FMOs where they moved up the ladder to OPS and IC or in old Line Boss and Fire Boss
WTKTT,
I know that if a Crew, especially a HS Crew tells you they are in ‘the black’, then you can take that to the bank. They are in a good, safe position and no need to have AA or anyone else check on them.
The GMHS defied logic that day and turned a great deal in the WFF world on its head, where it MAY very well cause a lot of Overhead to mistrust HS Crews in the future, regarding their intentions, their location, whatever.
It’s f**ked up!
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
February 24, 2016 at 7:53 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> I know that if a Crew, especially a HS Crew tells you
>> they are in ‘the black’, then you can take that to the
>> bank. They are in a good, safe position and no need
>> to have AA or anyone else check on them.
Exactly. That’s what ‘management’ SHOULD be able to do.
No organization can function if it has to be an assumption that mid-level managers are LYING to their supervisors.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The GMHS defied logic that day and turned a great
>> deal in the WFF world on its head, where it MAY
>> very well cause a lot of Overhead to mistrust HS
>> Crews in the future, regarding their intentions, their
>> location, whatever.
>>
>> It’s f**ked up!
Yes, it is… and you have to also ask yourself…
WHY did OPS1 Todd Abel want the Air Attack module ( Bravo 33 ) to basically stop what they were doing… and go VERIFY what both a ‘Division Supervisor’ and a ‘Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent’ had already TOLD him?
We still don’t know if that ‘check flight’ actually ever even happened… but unless you believe OPS1 Todd Able was flat-out LYING to ADOSH investigators himself… you have to believe that even AFTER being told by Eric Marsh that both he and Granite Mountain were ‘in the safe black’… he ( Abel ) still felt the need to have that VERIFIED by an already over-taxed Air Support module.
Could it be that OPS1 Todd Abel himself already knew that Eric Marsh had a penchant/reputation for fucking with people’s heads?
It certainly sounds as if even after hearing “we’re in the safe black” from Eric Marsh… OPS1 Abel still didn’t TRUST that statement and still felt the need to retask valuable ( busy ) Air Resources just to make SURE this ‘DIVS/IHCS’ wasn’t ‘bullshitting’ him.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Could it be that OPS1 Todd Abel himself already knew that Eric Marsh had a penchant/reputation for fucking with people’s heads?”
“It certainly sounds as if even after hearing “we’re in the safe black” from Eric Marsh… OPS1 Abel still didn’t TRUST that statement and still felt the need to retask valuable ( busy ) Air Resources just to make SURE this ‘DIVS/IHCS’ wasn’t ‘bullshitting’ him.”
Yes, I absolutely believe that is a strong possibility. Almost all of us knew it, so it makes sense someone as engaged as Todd Able would also know it.
I do NOT believe Abel lied to the ADOSH investigators.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on February 24, 2016 at 9:24 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I do NOT believe Abel lied to the ADOSH investigators.
It remains a fact, though, that with regards to whether or not Thomas French and John Burfiend ( Bravo 33 ) ever actually performed that ‘check flight’ to get a visual on Granite Mountain… either they ( French/Burfiend ) were lying about what really happened… or it was OPS1 Todd Abel.
Their ‘stories’ about it totally contradict each other, and that has never been resolved.
We STILL don’t know if that crucial ‘check flight’ ever actually happened… or not… and who did ( or didn’t ) tell the truth about to the investigators.
The evidence ‘leans’ towards OPS1 Abel’s account being the correct one… but only ‘leans’ since the French/Burfiend account totally contradicts him.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You posted: “Could it be that OPS1 Todd
>> Abel himself already knew that Eric Marsh
>> had a penchant/reputation for fucking with
>> people’s heads?”
>>
>> “It certainly sounds as if even after hearing
>> “we’re in the safe black” from Eric Marsh…
>> OPS1 Abel still didn’t TRUST that statement
>> and still felt the need to retask valuable ( busy )
>> Air Resources just to make SURE this
>> ‘DIVS/IHCS’ wasn’t ‘bullshitting’ him.”
>>
>> Yes, I absolutely believe that is a strong
>> possibility. Almost all of us knew it,
>> so it makes sense someone as engaged
>> as Todd Able would also know it.
It remains ABSURD ( there’s that word again ) that none of the ‘investigators’ ever even bothered to ASK any of these men they were interviewing if they even KNEW Eric Marsh at all… prior to working with him on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I don’t just mean if they knew WHO he was… but if they REALLY ‘knew’ him.
Given how the evidence WAS all pointing to ‘Human Factors’ as the primary cause of the tragedy… the topic of how well people did ( or did NOT ) know Eric Marsh and his personality/habits was never even ‘touched’.
On December 17, 2015, Amanda Marsh posted the following photograph on her public ‘Eric Marsh Foundation’ Facebook page of Eric Marsh and Todd Abel in full ‘fire gear’ working together…
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/pb.706170532809466.-2207520000.1456378458/943446499081867/?type=3&theater
She also used it as the new ‘Cover Photo’ for the “Eric Marsh Foundation” public Facebook page when it was uploaded on December 17, 2015, and it remained the ‘Cover Photo’ for that public page for a while.
The original CAPTION she added to this photo of Eric Marsh and Todd Abel in full gear together contained the phrase “good friend Todd Abel”. She did not date the photograph but one of the public public comments on the photo from someone named ‘Bee Tschorn’ said…
“Bee Tschorn – 2011 up in northern Arizona I love the look on Todd’s face.”
So there is no doubt that OPS1 Todd Abel ‘knew’ Eric Marsh ( for years, even ) prior to Yarnell.
Probably VERY well… both personally and professionally..
Maybe ( just maybe ) Todd Abel knew Eric well enough to ask “Bravo 33” to go and VERIFY what Eric had told him about “being in the safe black” on June 30, 2013.
FWIW: A few interesting things to ‘notice’ in this photograph…
– The smoke cloud in the background.
– Todd Abel himself has a handheld GPS Unit on his right pack strap.
– Eric has his ‘compass’ in his left shirt pocket and the ‘compass string’ tied into his shirt button hole, exactly the way he always did and exactly the way it was in Yarnell. The autopsy report from the Medical Examiner says Eric’s compass, signal mirror AND his ‘cellphone’ were found in that exact same left shirt pocket at the start of his autopsy on July 2, 2013.
– Todd Abel has the exact same deal. His ‘compass string’ is coming out of his left shirt pocket and is tied into his shirt button hole.
– Eric Marsh’s BK radio has more of an ‘orange’ battery pack than the standard ‘red’ ones… and Eric actually has a ‘custom’ Granite Mountain logo embossed over the keypad of the BK radio. This does, in fact, match the radio that was found on the ground at the deployment site near where the SAIR diagram says he deployed his shelter.
Whoops. Bad typo up above.
I typed ‘4:32 PM’ when I meant to type ‘3:42’ PM.
How’s that for a ‘numeral dyslexia brain fart’!
The right three numbers… just the wrong order.
So the paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
——————————————————————-
At exactly 3:42 PM on June 30, 2013, a former long-time Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent turned OPS level contractor ( Paul Musser ) was calling another Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent turned DIVS contractor and was inquiring about his Hotshot Crew’s ‘availability’ to get to Yarnell and help protect structures.
So right there we have two Hotshot-Supts ‘moving up in the world’ and interacting with each other. The fact that they were both Hotshot-Supts didn’t prevent the tragedy, however.
——————————————————————-
Don’t know if any of you have been following the disastrous El Faro cargo shipping sinking in the Bahamas after sailing straight into a hurricane. The parallels of sailing into a hurricane and the GMHS walking down into a bad situation are quite astounding. The Coast Guard is currently having a hearing to get to the bottom of what happened in an official capacity. Something I picked out from the hearing is the US Coast Guard code stated by an official: “We save lives, not property. If lives are not at risk, we don’t mobilize. It is a policy ship operators should know.” I find this a very poignant statement that could be applied to both the Twisp Fire and Yarnell Fire.
John.
Thanks for bringing this El Faro cargo ship incident back into the open. I had forgotten about it until you brought it up. Definitely some parallels to the YH Fire and all other WUI fires.
I know you are talking about a Coast Guard investigation here and I will definitely follow that from here on.
I’m posting an NTSB link with a lot of their investigations and such for others that may not be aware of this one. Thanks again.
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20151020.aspx
YH Fire Staff Ride Development Group update
AZ Forestry contracted with OMNA International, LLC. to design a Staff Ride ordered in one of the Court rulings. The highly unlikely deadline is June 30, 2016. http://www.theomna.com/services.html
OMNA specializes in “designing and delivering experiential leadership development events – especially leadership and decision-making staff rides.”
There were NO YH Fire SAIT members present. However, there were individuals from different levels in the Federal Land Management Agencies, including several current and former Hot Shot Superintendents, Line Officers (District Rangers, Forest Supervisors, District Managers, Regional Foresters, etc.) and Type I and II IMT command and operational members.
OPS Paul Musser was involved early on and present. However, they really waffled about OPS Todd Able, because he finally received permission to attend only a week prior to the event.
AA John Burfiend thought it strange that the GMHS called to notify him that they were traveling their Escape Route to a Safety Zone since they were already in a Safety Zone.
He said the AA plane antennas were located on the BOTTOM of the aircraft and so the critical conversations and discussions with the GMHS were restricted and compromised due to flying in the mountainous terrain.
‘They’ discussed ‘Human Factors’ and what an important causal factor it was but decided they will NOT call it such. Instead, they will euphemistically refer to it as “CULTURAL MOMENTUM” and/or “BIAS FOR ACTION.”
There will be several stands that are usually based on DECISION POINTS.
There will be several Tactical Decision points to ponder or “What if …?” situations based on these Tactical Decision Points beginning from the start of the fire until the GMHS fatalities.
BSR access will be terminated this Summer.
FREELANCING or going MAVERICK, and NOT ‘independent action’, recognized as having occurred and been a big influence on the fatal outcome, however, this will NOT be brought out into the open.
The families MUST approve of the final YH Fire Staff Ride product, whatever it is.
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (LLC) Tactical Decision Games (TTG)
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/TDG_Library/default.htm
RTS said:
Lots of interesting info, except for this, this one’s just annoying:
“He said the AA plane antennas were located on the BOTTOM of the aircraft and so the critical conversations and discussions with the GMHS were restricted and compromised due to flying in the mountainous terrain.”
Tell him I said that’s bullshit and he knows it. I don’t really want to know why you had to add that ‘word salad.’ You should have left that one out. Look, what happened happened. Ok, you baited me. Listen to the audio again. Yelling for air attack on A2G more than once…no response. AA tells the person with loud voice & sounding urgent: ‘unit yelling into the radio needs to stop.’ No attempt at that time to see what they actually want – just to stop. Ops Abel asks AA if they copied that someone is trying to contact them and did he hear that? AA say YES they were hearing that, (AA must have been inverted at this point & over good ground) Ops Abel tells them to go ahead and take that then. Now, he says, according to you, that the antennae position and mountainous terrain ‘restricted’ and ‘compromised’ his ability to communicate with GM during critical times. C’mon, man. Really? If you think that entire attempted radio communication was 100% all cool then you’ve been out of the trenches for too long
Woodsman
Woodsman–I understand your frustration.
However I have been there and done that a more real statement would be.
The crew was in a canyon with ridges on both sides. The AA was on the North side of the fire directing drops which include flying 150 ft above the terrain.
So yes at times he was low enough that line of site from a ground radio like where GM was would have some problems with contact. The antennas are under the plane so the closer to the ground the less contact with ground forces that do not have a direct line of site. There were to my understanding no repeaters on the fire
to help with transmissions. GtoA depends on line of site in those situations.
So maybe the AA has a point.
One thing that goes out immediately on fires in R4 is the Radio boxes with a Repeater due to the terrain in our mountainous areas.
Which on a side note may cause some critical problems with the new plans to put locaters on crews and overhead. I have been in a lot of areas in Idaho where Telephones (Cells) and GPS were dead in the water.
Woodsman,
I wasn’t there, just a messenger. And yes, you sure took the bait, hook, line, and sinker.
So glad to see that you really think, that I’m a real dumb shit with this statement: “C’mon, man. Really? If you think that entire attempted radio communication was 100% all cool then you’ve been out of the trenches for too long.”
Where in any of the above did I say I believed any of this or thought that was what occurred? NOWHERE!
C’mon man. Really?
Woodsman,
I didn’t realize how SENSITIVE you were.
RTS,
You’re projecting now.
My statement said ‘if’ you believe that was good communication happening then you have been out of the trenches for too long – well, do you believe it was good communication? Why did you choose to include to relay this particular information of what Burfiend said? What was your motive? Can it be assumed that you are defending Mr. Burfiend as you have done with a number of other people here? I believe it was one of the following:
A. Forwarding information you found (or were told) about a part of the Yarnell HIll fire just for the sake of adding to the discussion – just for the hell of it.
B. Forwarding information you found (or were told) about a part of the Yarnell Hill fire that you believe is true and by doing so, increased the knowledge of the truth
C. Forwarding information you think is total bullshit to give others the opportunity to shoot it full of holes and mock it.
Based on your defensiveness and projection, I’m guessing C is out. So that leaves A or B.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Close but wrong. How about A and C. Remember, Bob said something like “we need something new to chew on.”
I provided something new for you to chew on and shoot holes and whatever.
So sensitive ….
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
February 24, 2016 at 7:46 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I provided something new for you to chew on
>> and shoot holes and whatever.
See the following link above for the usual ( and expected ) ‘hole shooting and whatever’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-326801
Has to do with your recent statements that give the impression you have read the ‘settlement documents’… when you now say you have NOT.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Has to do with your recent statements that give the impression you have read the ‘settlement documents’… when you now say you have NOT.”
AND THIS IS WHAT I POSTED: “I have NOT seen any of the court rulings and/or the actual content. That would be worth researching.”
It’s a non-sequitor. It doesn’t follow. How do you get the impression I read the Court documents when I clearly say I have NOT seen any of them?
You’re putting words in my mouth.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on February 24, 2016 at 9:50 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You’re putting words in my mouth.
Nope. Just asking questions about things you have already stated ( in writing ).
Read the ‘Reply’ post above that I linked to.
It refers back to your original ( recent ) ‘update post about the ‘Yarnell Staff Ride BETA test-run’ and two of the ‘statements’ in it…
—————————————
On February 23, 2016 at 10:09 pm, RTS said…
YH Fire Staff Ride Development Group update
AZ Forestry contracted with OMNA International, LLC. to design a Staff Ride ordered in one of the Court rulings.
The families MUST approve of the final YH Fire Staff Ride product, whatever it is.
———————
BOTH of those statements, which are presented as FACTS, seem to imply that you have ( yourself ) READ the ‘settlement documents’.
That’s why I asked you if that was the case.
And that’s what the post above is about.
Again… see the following link above for the usual ( and expected ) ‘hole shooting and whatever’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-326801
Whoops… bad ‘cut and paste’ on the link.
Try this one…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-326801
RTS,
Option C, huh? I didn’t expect that.
Well, anytime you want to throw one out there for that purpose, I’d be happy to pounce on it like a starving hound dog on a meat bone.
Thanks, man!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Check out this document from the Western States Fire Managers 28th Annual Meeting.
Some relevant info on the 10 and 18 and more
http://wflccenter.org/documents/2014/04/western-state-fire-managers-committee-28th-annual-meeting-march-2014.pdf
Woodsman,
Here’s another titled: “Framing Tragedy: Rhetorical Strategies and Effects in the Wake of the Yarnell Hill Fire Fatalities” by Peter Vidmar of Trinity University with some good Human Factors references
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dUp6IHSjQKUJ:petervidmar.weebly.com/uploads/2/6/6/9/26691936/hcommisgranitemountain.docx+&cd=31&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
RTS,
Thanks for these links.
Woodsman
Reply to Robert the Second RTS post on February 23, 2016 at 10:09 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> YH Fire Staff Ride Development Group update.
Thank you for all of that. Very interesting information.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> AZ Forestry contracted with OMNA International, LLC. to design a Staff
>> Ride ordered in one of the Court rulings.
Have you actually SEEN these infamous ‘court rulings’… as in… the actual CONTENT of the actual ‘settlement’ between (only) the families represented by attorney Patrick McGroder and Arizona Forestry?
At the press conference… the ’emphasis’ was that Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney had PROMISED that he would work with the families and (quote) “answer ALL their questions”… but it was left open-ended whether that would be a ‘staff ride’… or a Q/A session… or what.
We’ve seen a number of documents associated with that announced ‘settlement’ ( with ONLY the families represented by attorney McGroder ), but as far as I know… the ACTUAL ‘content’ of the settlement ( full terms and conditions ) has never been made public.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The highly unlikely deadline is June 30, 2016.
Hmmm… according to the last known published ‘minutes’ of the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’… that is also supposed to be the exact same day they are going to DEDICATE the new ‘Arizona Park’ that contains the deployment site… and open the park to the public.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> AA John Burfiend thought it strange that the GMHS called to notify
>> him that they were traveling their Escape Route to a Safety Zone
>> since they were already in a Safety Zone.
Just a few months after the Yarnell Hill Tragedy… John Burfiend stopped what he had been doing and took a ‘desk job’ as the new Director of the USFS National Advanced Fire and Resource Institute ( NAFRI ).
NAFRI is located in Tucson, Arizona.
Oddly enough… it is ALSO the exact physical location that runs the Servers that host that USFS “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned” online website(s).
http://www.nafri.gov/nafri-director-john-burfiend
————————————————————————–
NAFRI Director – John Burfiend
John has served as the NAFRI Director since May 2014. For over 25 years, he has worked in various positions in wildland fire management. Most recently he served as the US Forest Service Air Attack Supervisor for the Southwest Regional Office in Albuquerque, NM.
National Advanced Fire & Resource Institute
3265 East Universal Way
Tucson, Arizona 85756
P. (520) 799-8787
F. (520) 799-8785
————————————————————————–
Right after John Burfiend took over as the new Director of the USFS NAFRI facility… he attended the 2014 Steering Committee meeting for the National Interagency Hotshots ( IHC ) Group… and he had some opinions to express to those IHC leaders.
The ‘minutes’ of that IHC 2014 Steering Committee meeting are here…
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/notes/2015_nihcsc_meeting_notes.pdf
From the minutes of that 2014 IHC Committee meeting…
—————————————————————–
National IHC Steering Committee Conference 18 – 20 November 2014
** Wildland Lessons Learned Center Update (Russo,Dotson)
Website updated, working on more interactive alternatives.
Working on a National MEDEVAC channel similar to what R5 has.
Urges IHC to report when they cannot talk directly with MEDEVAC ships.National accident numbers indicate that snags continue to be one of the biggest safety concerns
Regen on new Hotshot Crew Carriers being looked at as well
John Burfiend new Director at NAFRI spoke ( to the IHC Committee )…
Given Yarnell Hills Fire tragedy this is a good time for Management to start accepting the risk that the on the ground folks are accepting everyday. Urged IHC overhead to make the leap to management.
—————————————————————–
So John Burfiend, in his capactity as the new NAFRI Director ( which hosts the actual USFS Wildland Lessons Learned Center ) told the Interagency Hotshots Steering Committee, to their faces…
“Given Yarnell Hills Fire tragedy this is a good time for Management to start accepting the risk that the on the ground folks are accepting everyday. Urged IHC overhead to make the leap to management.”
I’m not really sure what he meant.
That’s also just a ‘summary’ of what he told them ( in the minutes ).
Not sure if a full transcript of his comments from that IHC meeting exists or not.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> He said the AA plane antennas were located on the BOTTOM of the
>> aircraft and so the critical conversations and discussions with the GMHS
>> were restricted and compromised due to flying in the mountainous terrain.
Horseshit.
There is NO evidence of the ‘fly boys’ ( any iteration of ATGS or AA that day ) had ANY trouble communicating with ANYONE on the ground that day… any time they wanted to, or vice versa.
Besides… someone want to tell me how the antennas being on the BOTTOM would DECREASE the chances of good como from Air-to-Ground? I would think the antennas being on the TOP of any particular aircraft might make such a claim more credible.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> ‘They’ discussed ‘Human Factors’ and what an important causal factor
>> it was but decided they will NOT call it such. Instead, they will
>> euphemistically refer to it as “CULTURAL MOMENTUM” and/or “BIAS FOR ACTION.”
And what would they call ‘fudging’ time sheets on the night before you die?
More ‘BIAS FOR ACTION’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> There will be several Tactical Decision points to ponder or “What if …?”
>> situations based on these Tactical Decision Points beginning from the
>> start of the fire until the GMHS fatalities.
Thank you. That answers a big question I had… which is whether or not the ‘Staff Ride’ for this tragedy was even going to acknowledge the fact that Sunday was the THIRD DAY that Arizona Forestry was in charge of this fire… and the only reason GM was there was because Arizona Forestry ICT4 Russ Shumate screwed up the Initial Attack.
In terms of understanding why 19 men ended up dead… it matters.
>> RTS also wrote…
>>
>> BSR access will be terminated this Summer.
I assume that means that BSR access WILL be available for BOTH the ‘Staff Ride’ AND the ‘dedication ceremony’, then? ( BOTH events on June 30, 2016? ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> FREELANCING or going MAVERICK, and NOT ‘independent action’,
>> recognized as having occurred and been a big influence on the fatal
>> outcome, however, this will NOT be brought out into the open.
>>
>> The families MUST approve of the final YH Fire Staff Ride product, whatever it is.
You’re kidding us, right?
And how will that ‘approval’ process take place?
With the same unsupervised and undocumented ‘informal polling’ process that Amanda Marsh got away with when she was trying to lock down access to the deployment site?
The same process that led to a ‘restricted access’ policy for the new Arizona State Park, AGAINST the wishes of both the Arizona State Forester ( Jeff Whitney ) and the former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( Darrell Willis )?
WTKTT,
I already solved the riddle of the position of the antennae & the challenges it caused that day. AA was jamming to the soundtrack from Top Gun at the time, which gave them the extra courage needed to fly inverted (little known fact: Burfiend’s unofficial nickname is Maverick), so while flying inverted over the target area, the radios worked fine. It’s just when the fuselage was in the ‘standard’ upright position – the radio caused the ‘restricted’ and ‘compromised’ commo with GM. What sucks, and thankfully MAV had the balls to order the pilot to fly inverted as much as he did that day or it would have been worse But what really sucks is at the most critical and inconvenient times, the como was ‘shaky.’
“HIGHWAY TO THE DANGER ZONE!…guitars jamming……woohooo!!”
I trust this explanation completely clears this up for you.
A cornucopia of major eye-rolls and sarcasm goes here.
Woodsman
WTKTT see my notes above. Yes it has always been a problem for como
when planes fly below the ridge lines on lead to drops.
The antenna is in the best location under the plane most of the time till the plane drops to the 150ft level for drops any one in a canyon will be unable to contact do to line of site no matter where the Antenna is.
The antenna under the plane is pointing towards the ground for the best como but that changes when the plane drops out of its normal high altitude.
Thus repeaters on the ground assists in the communications.
It is like that all over in the Mountain areas in the west.
No line of site no contact. Or sketchy contact.
The crew had all the contact in the world on the mountain till they dropped into the canyon. being at the mouth of the canyon deployment site they had some communications that was getting out on the AtoG to others and the AA when he was not on a run and higher.
Reply to Bob Powers post on February 24, 2016 at 9:31 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT see my notes above. Yes it has always
>> been a problem for como when planes fly below the
>> ridge lines on lead to drops.
Thank you, Bob. You obviously have more than a little expertise in this area so thanks for sorting that out.
However… I’m still going to call “Horseshit” on there being any real ‘como’ problems between ground forces and Air Attack in/over Yarnell on June 30, 2013… for a number of reasons.
Some are detailed below ( along with some other questions )… but the primary ones are…
1. No one in the ‘evidence record’ ( on the ground or in the air ) reports ever having any kind of ‘como blackouts’ such as the ones only NOW being ( supposedly ) reported by ‘Bravo 33’ right-seater John Burfiend.
The only reason Gary Cordes lost the ability to communicate from the ground ( in the same terrain ) to Air Attack is because his own BK Handheld radio’s transmit switch stopped working sometime in the late afternoon.
2. We can HEAR Granite Mountain communicating directly with John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ on the A2G channel from within the DEEPEST part of the box canyon, from the very spot where they were going to all die.
There are no ‘dropouts’ there… and the signal was ‘loud and clear’.
Immediately prior to ( and during ) those MAYDAY calls… Bravo 33 was ‘lining up a drop’ with the newly arrived VLAT and was flying a route that would have also put them out of direct line of sight with that DEEP part of the Box Canyon… but there didn’t seem to be any problems communicating with Granite Mountain on the A2G channel.
3. There is plenty of evidence ( in the public record ) of there being all kinds of clear communicating going on between John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ and Granite Mountain, during all ‘phases’ of their trip out of the safe black, down into the box canyon, and WHILE they were down in it. So if Burfiend is suggesting there where ‘blackout’ moments… then WHEN is he saying they happened?
I know you don’t know the answer to that… I’m just pointing out that, once again, someone is claiming something about the Yarnell Hill tragedy that just begs more questions ( and more answers ) to render it ‘credible’.
>> Bob Powers
>>
>> The antenna is in the best location under the plane
>> most of the time till the plane drops to the 150ft level
>> for drops any one in a canyon will be unable to contact
>> do to line of site no matter where the Antenna is.
There is evidence in the public record of direct communications between ‘Bravo 33’ and ‘Granite Mountain’ during ALL phases of their ‘risky move’ out of the safe black and towards the Boulder Springs Ranch. So if anything was ‘missed’ or if John Burfiend is now trying to ‘pile on’ to the ‘radio communications issues killed those men’ bullshit that the SAIR was pushing… then Burfiend needs to say exactly WHEN he thinks his own failure to communicate with GM ( or they with him ) might have contributed to this tragedy.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The antenna under the plane is pointing towards the
>> ground for the best como but that changes when the
>> plane drops out of its normal high altitude.
So… basically you are saying that there is another HUGE “Lesson to Learn” here coming out of this terrible tragedy.
And that is… at NO TIME should the plane that is SUPPOSED to be acting as “Air Attack” also be the “Lead Plane” and ‘dropping’ down to those lower altitudes.
There is a REASON you establish that ‘Air Attack’ command platform at the higher altitudes. It’s so that exactly what you just described is NOT likely to ever happen at all… correct?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Thus repeaters on the ground assists in the communications.
One of the only ‘official’ Arizona Forestry ‘repeater’ towers was right there in Yarnell. It was on that ‘mountain’ to the EAST of Yarnell and is referred to in the transcripts and documentation many times.
You can even hear Thomas French ( the pilot of Burfiend’s ‘Bravo 33’ airplane ) talking about them with other pilots as they came and went from Yarnell. At one point just before Steed’s MAYDAY call… Frecnh and pilot ‘Kevin’ in the VLAT were visually ‘referencing’; these ‘white antennas’ up there on that mountain to help line up their ‘show me’ for the drop that got interrupted by Steed’s 4:39 PM MAYDAY call.
So there WAS a ‘repeater’.
It was fucking RIGHT THERE in Yarnell itself… and it had a DIRECT ‘line of sight’ from even the DEEPEST part of that box canyon.
Look at any picture taken from up at the ‘Descent Point’, looking EAST and across the floor of the box canyon and towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
You can easily SEE that ‘Ariozna Forestry’ repeater antenna there in the distance, about a 1/2 mile EAST ( and above ) the town of Yarnell.
So in what way could anyone claim there was “no repeater” available to Arizona State Forestry in the Yarnell area?
WTKTT it all depends on the time and place.
The AtoG was probably good 90% of the time.
when the crew went into the hole it was not good for them if the plane was low and out of site on the North side of the fire.
That is all I am saying.
The repeater antenna did not have the Fire Freq. on it only the normal day to day operations. Not the Fire Freq. channels AA,AG,DIV/OPS, Fire assigned Freq. those were programed into Personal Portable Radios.
The best I can explain is. FS Each Forest and I assume the State puts Repeaters or Transmitter towers for State net out to cover the area they talk to. A Fire has a seperiate radio freq. that is not part of the State or Forest Freq. on the fire its self.
The Tower you refer to is a Transmitter tower not a Repeater tower for the Fire Freq. those are actually controlled by national agreement thru the National Interagency Fire Center. Not the State.
A seperiate tower is needed for each Fire They are Portable with additional Repeaters to cover the entire fire.
Normally air craft are High enough to talk to ground almost any place but when they are low some times there are problems on some sections of the fire. As we have noted Marsh and Steed could not get out on the fire or OPS Freq. Same problem in a Canyon line of site with PP radios.
All the Talk you refer to was in the Air above the Fire. when they drop down for 30 plus seconds to show the run to the Air tanker
in the Valley they are out of Communications to GM in a Canyon But no one on the North end of the fire.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A Fire has a seperiate radio freq. that is not part
>> of the State or Forest Freq. on the fire its self.
Bob… all the documentation from the Yarnell Fire says that the entire bank of ‘frequencies’ that were being used for the Yarnell Hill Fire were the ARIZONA FORESTRY STANDARD FREQUENCIES.
Nobody at Yarnell called the FCC and started asking them if they could just start using some willy-nilly frequencies for something called the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’.
The frequencies that were ASSIGNED were the STANDARD ONES that were already well-known to anyone working with Arizona Forestry.
So if the frequencies ‘in use’ that day were all the STANDARD ones that Arizona Forestry always uses… and there was an official ‘Arizona Forestry’ repeater sitting right there on that mountain outside of Yarnell…
…where is the room for saying that the radio ‘como’ could have been any kind of ‘big mess’ that day?
That being said… I don’t know what Rance Marquez’s problem was that day… but he seemed unable to be able to contact some people that day ( like Eric Marsh ) even when he could actually SEE the person he was trying to call in the distance.
WTKTT,
you said:
“…where is the room for saying that the radio ‘como’ could have been any kind of ‘big mess’ that day?”
The answer is there is no room. ..it’s pure obfuscatory bullshit that’s meant to shed blame and redirect.
Good work.
Woodsman
They were Programming Frequencies . which means they were using national fire freq. assigned for that fire. Not State.
The Air To Ground is not a standard Arizona Frequency.
The Divis/OPS is not a standard Arizona freq.
those are National Frequencies not Arizona standard Freq.
You go to Tack Frequencies for many of the on ground FF
Radios.
Normal Air to Ground is not on the Transmitter’s for the State
nor are any of the Tack Freq.
I do not know how else to explain it to you.
Air to ground is a line of site channel— no transmitter or repeater over the fire. Like the Crew Radios are a Line of site channel each crew has a different Freq. for their radios.
Tack channels are assigned for each fire so there is no cross over to fires say up to 100 miles away. and have their own repeaters with transmitter antennas at fire camp
The State Dispatch is then on a seperiate radio for orders etc. to and from ADC. The State has their own fire Freq.
for Miscellaneous and IA traffic.
All AA and AIR to Ground Freq. are National, even State Air Tankers and Air craft operate on the National Freq.
Although they have the State Radio as well.
I understand it is quite confusing to some one not acquainted with the Fire Radio systems.
The Fire Frequency’s are not wiilli nilli they are all preapproved and dedicated they do not have to go to
FCC for any thing.
The NIFC assigns and pre sets fire cash radios
those that have radios that can be programed
get the specific programming in fire camp or when they arrive at the fire.
AIR Attack has designated channels for Air to Ground that are used on every fire no change no adjustment. Arizona should have those but they are fire specific and the ADC dose not transmit on them
as they are for the fire only.
You also have to have a seperiate repeater for each Radio Frequency I am seriously doubting their antenna carried all of that. Repeaters are put in locations to cover hard to reach spots not on regular transmitter sites.
I am trying to explain the radio system on fires.
Every body has already programed on their radios the Ground to Air Freq. National system not just a State.
The fire and Tack Freq. are assigned for each fire.
they are then programed in.
WTKTT,
You posted: “That being said… I don’t know what Rance Marquez’s problem was that day… but he seemed unable to be able to contact some people that day ( like Eric Marsh ) even when he could actually SEE the person he was trying to call in the distance.”
It is POSSIBLE that he MAY have either failed to program in a Tone Guard OR was was programmed in and was NOT supposed to be.
This would allow someone to hear but NOT transmit OR transmit but NOT hear.
POSSIBLE
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on February 24, 2016 at 7:59 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It is POSSIBLE that he MAY have either
>> failed to program in a Tone Guard OR
>> was was programmed in and was NOT
>> supposed to be.
>>
>> This would allow someone to hear
>> but NOT transmit OR transmit but
>> NOT hear.
>>
>> POSSIBLE
Actually ( in Marquez’s case ) not just POSSIBLE… but LIKELY.
Marquez was a BLM ( Federal ) fuels management employee and ‘moonlighting’ as a DIVS when AZF needed warm bodies.
According to Roy Hall himself… the *only* como problems he was aware of that Sunday had to do with what he called “the Federal guys” showing up and not being totally familiar with Arizona Forestry procedures or frequencies.
And since Roy’s own COMS manager director didn’t even show up until well after lunch… well… good luck ‘getting it right’ when you aren’t showing up until NOON yourself ( like Marquez ).
Another ‘thumbs down’ for going with this ‘put together’ patchwork team instead of just pushing the button on Saturday night on Bea Day’s Type 2 team… but that’s another post.
Here is exactly what Roy Hall had to say about that…
From Roy Hall’s second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews on 10/15/2013…
———————————————–
Roy Hall: Well and – and – and the one thing that – that I would say is that, um, when there were only radios, it was damned important. And – and if you’ve got a workaround, and if you’ve got a phone and, you know, that can interfere with it. That can interfere with it. And, ah, um, but – but then the, ah, it – I don’t – that’s the reason that the communications plan was briefed in a robust way at that briefing that morning. And that Granite Mountain, having a State – they’re a State resource at – from the fire department, they had all the tone guards. They – they weren’t – they weren’t the ones that had the difficulties, it was those Federal resources coming in that were – that were – that they – they were the ones that were troubled.
———————————————–
BTW: When Roy Hall says… “… the communications plan was briefed in a robust way at that briefing that morning”… he is NOT suggesting that there was any kind of ‘change’ to the ‘coms plan’ that Arizona Forestry ICT4 Russ Shumate had in place since Friday night when the fire started and he was assigned as AZF ICT4.
Roy Hall just used the exact same ‘coms plan’ that ICT4 Shumate already had going when he ( Hall ) arrived. No changes whatsoever.
The ‘fire command’ channel was the standard AZF one that went through the repeater that was right there in Yarnell itself.
All the TAC channels were the standard AZF State ones assigned to AZF by the FCC.
The A2G channel was the same one Russ Shumate had been using for 2 days.
WTKTT<
You posted: "… at NO TIME should the plane that is SUPPOSED to be acting as “Air Attack” also be the “Lead Plane” and ‘dropping’ down to those lower altitudes."
I agree completely on this issue, and this is a huge Bone of Contention among Operational personnel. Way too many people in one aircraft trying to accomplish too many things at once, when there really needs to be spatial separation. However, this is what it is anymore.
"There is a REASON you establish that ‘Air Attack’ command platform at the higher altitudes. It’s so that exactly what you just described is NOT likely to ever happen at all… correct?"
Here is the link for the NWCG 157 page Aerial Supervision Guide which addresses your issues.
http://gacc.nifc.gov/rmcc/logistics/AerialSupervisionGuide_2009.pdf
"3) Aerial Supervision Module (ASM)
"a) Introduction
" – An ASM is a crew of two specially trained individuals who retain
their individual Leadplane Pilot and ATGS qualifications. Each crewmember has specific duties and responsibilities that fall within their area of expertise. These vary in scope based on the mission and task loads of each crewmember. The Air Tactical Pilot (ATP) serves as the aircraft commander and is primarily responsible for aircraft coordination over the incident.
"The Air Tactical Supervisor (ATS) serves as the mission commander who develops/implements strategy/tactics in conjunction with the Incident Commander (IC) and operations personnel. When no IC
is present the ATS assumes those responsibilities until qualified ground personnel arrive.
"The ASM IS DESIGNED FOR INITIAL ATTACK OPERATIONS, BUT CAN PROVIDE INCIDENT MANAGEMENT TEAMS WITH THE FLEXIBILITY OF BEING ABLE TO ALTERNATE BETWEEN OPERATIONAL FUNCTIONS UNTIL DEDICATED AERIAL SUPERVISION RESOURCES CAN BE ASSIGNED TO THE INCIDENT." (EMPHASIS ADDED)
"5) Aerial Supervision Module (ASM) – An ASM is a two person crew functioning as the Lead and ATGS from the same aircraft. The ASM crew is qualified in their respective positions and has received additi
onal training and authorization. An ASM can be utilized as a Lead, ATGS, or both, depending on the needs of incident management personnel. An ASM consists of an Air Tactical Pilot and Air Tactical
Supervisor."
"a) Air Tactical Pilot (ATP) – The ATP is a qualified Leadplane Pilot who has received specialized training and authorization to function as an ASM crewmember. The ATP functions as the Leadplane pilot and utilizes Crew Resource Management (CRM) skills to evaluate and share the incident workload with the ATS.
"b) Air Tactical Supervisor (ATS) – The ATS is a qualified ATGS who has received specialized training and authorization to function as an ASM crewmember. The ATS is an ATGS who also utilizes CRM to evaluate and share the incident workload with the ATP. "
Hopefully, this provided you with some information you did not already know.
Reply to Robert the Second post on
February 24, 2016 at 7:40 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Hopefully, this provided you with some information
>> you did not already know.
Thank you… but regardless of all that ‘acronym soup’ above, I think I already WAS ‘fully aware’ that an airplane contracted to show other contracted airplanes where to drop fire retardant COULD have two guys in it ‘sharing’ the duties of both ‘Lead Plane’ and ‘Air Attack’.
The question ( in light of what Mr. Powers was saying ) is whether that really is a good idea, or not, given the reality that dropping down to the lower altitudes CAN ( potentially ) cause ‘communications blackouts’ between that ‘Air Attack’ module and the ground forces.
Sounds like the answer should be “no… it’s not a good idea”.
But in the case of Yarnell… it’s a moot point.
Despite anything that John Burfiend might be saying at this late date… there is still NO evidence that there were any problems with any of the ground forces in Yarnell actually communicating ( at any time ) with ANY of the various ‘Air Attacks’ that were over Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
That includes the morning AA ‘Rory Collins’ ( No lead plane duties ), the early afternoon AA + Lead Plane ( Bravo 3 with Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) and then the return of Rory Collins to solo-AA duties after refueling… and then on to 3:58 PM when Collins’ pilot ‘timed out’ and ‘Bravo 3’ became ( like Warbis and Lenmark ) dual Air-Attack and Lead-Plane.
( In case you lost count… that’s FOUR complete ‘handoffs’ of the ‘Air Attack’ duties over Yarnell that Sunday, from early morning until the time of the tragedy ).
Even in the conflicting accounts of whether or not ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) ever really went to ‘check’ on Granite Mountain that day… neither OPS1 Abel or French or Burfiend mention any ‘problems’ communicating with them.
So again… I’m still just wondering that if John Burfiend is only now trying to ‘pile on’ with the company line of ‘radio issues in Yarnell’… then exactly what TIMEFRAME is he talking about… and how does he think that might have made any difference that day.
If Thomas French and John Burfiend really WERE asked to go check on Granite Mountain… and they never actually did it ( just like they never ‘headed south’ at 3:50 PM when they told Rory Collins they would )… then the ‘problem’ to be discussed has nothing to do with where some radio antennas might be screwed into an airplane.
And speaking of ‘piling on’…
I share Woodsman curiosity about the actual John Burfiend statement that you recently posted, supposedly in the ‘context’ of other information regarding the ‘Yarnell Staff Ride’.
You posted ( in your ‘Staff Ride’ update )…
———————————————————–
OPS Paul Musser was involved early on and present.
However, they really waffled about OPS Todd Able, because he finally received permission to attend only a week prior to the event.
AA John Burfiend thought it strange that the GMHS called to notify him that they were traveling their Escape Route to a Safety Zone since they were already in a Safety Zone.
He said the AA plane antennas were located on the BOTTOM of the aircraft and so the critical conversations and discussions with the GMHS were restricted and compromised due to flying in the mountainous terrain.
———————————————————-
Just to be clear… are you saying that Yarnell AA John Burfiend really was ( just recently ) ‘present’ for this ‘Yarnell BETA Staff Ride’… and that is when he said this new thing about ‘antennas on the bottom of airplanes causing problems’?…
…or are you reporting those ‘comments’ from Burfiend outside of the context of the ‘BETA’ Staff ride itself?
If the former… then do you know WHERE they were in the ‘Staff Ride’ when Burfiend made those ‘comments’?
At the anchor point?
At the descent point?
At the deployment site?
Some OTHER point in the ‘Staff Ride’?
WTKTT,
They were in the context of the YH Fire Staff Ride Beta test and I have NO idea at what stage or decision point.
I’m sorry I even posted it.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
February 24, 2016 at 8:38 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>>
>> They were in the context of the YH Fire
>> Staff Ride Beta test and I have NO idea
>> at what stage or decision point.
Thank you. So former Yarnell AA John Burfiend who is now the DIRECTOR of NAFRI ( which hosts the actual ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned’ site ) really WAS part of that ‘test flight’ for this ‘Yarnell Staff Ride’
I wonder if he was STAY ‘onboard’ and also be part of the REAL one(s)… whenever that happens.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I’m sorry I even posted it.
I’m not. I think it’s pretty huge news to discover that the guy who now runs the USFS NAFRI program that hosts the official USFS ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned’ site is simply “towing the company line” regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire… and trying to reinforce the original SAIR “radio problems” mantra by pointing out where antennas are screwed into airplanes.
It’s fascinating… so thanks for posting.
There was also a repeater NE of the Helms if I identify it right. If you hike from Shrine canyon up over a bulldozed but washed out road we identified an antenna placed in a boulder area maybe a mile or mile and a half NE of Helms. This was about a six inch pvc casing with box below and antenna above. The casing stood up about ten ft. as I remember and had been very recently installed. Would that be a repeater?
Sonny,
Sounds like a temporary repeater site to me.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on February 24, 2016 at 7:18 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> “HIGHWAY TO THE DANGER ZONE!…guitars jamming……woohooo!!”
>>
>> I trust this explanation completely clears this up for you.
It does. Thank you.
And all of a sudden… a very classic phrase has taken on new meaning.
“I’m gonna need a beer to put these flames out”.
If someone ( anyone ) from the Yarnell Fire Department had even bothered to go up there on Friday night with even just a 6-pack of tallboys… we might not be 19 chapters deep into trying to figure out how 19 guys burned to death.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Have you actually SEEN these infamous ‘court rulings’… as in… the actual CONTENT of the actual ‘settlement’ between (only) the families represented by attorney Patrick McGroder and Arizona Forestry?”
I have NOT seen any of the court rulings and/or the actual content. That would be worth researching.
With regard to the families approving the final YH Fire Staff Ride product, You posted: “You’re kidding us, right?
“And how will that ‘approval’ process take place?
“With the same unsupervised and undocumented ‘informal polling’ process that Amanda Marsh got away with when she was trying to lock down access to the deployment site?
“The same process that led to a ‘restricted access’ policy for the new Arizona State Park, AGAINST the wishes of both the Arizona State Forester ( Jeff Whitney ) and the former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( Darrell Willis )?”
I have NO clue, so your guess is as good as mine. Another one worth researching.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on February 24, 2016 at 5:28 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I have NOT seen any of the court rulings and/or the actual content.
I posted a ‘Reply’ up above as a new parent comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-326801
Looks like we are just killing time here any more.
Need something new to chew on.
I’ll throw you a bone, Mr. Bob.
Here is a concept that I have been contemplating: What amount, if any, do you believe the “Wag Dog’ influence or technique was a factor in the decision for GM to attempt survival in such a horrible location? His actions that day have been read about & studied for decades. A best selling book was written about it.
What made me think of this is watching this video: The ‘entrapee’ mentions burning out “Wag Dodge’ style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2korLntp75A
In this video, you will hear a CalFire engine operator refer to Mr. Dodge’ escape fire attempt as a ‘seat of the pants’ last resort. It shocked me . It also made me wonder about the influence of reading of the Mann Gulch tragedy by firefighters may have planted the seed somehow of using the same tactic in a deployment situation. Did this influence GM in any way? After all, what a hero you would be to save your own crew in such a way, right? A modern day Wag Dodge…a living legend.
Anything here or not? Have we trained into or ‘glorified the actions of Wag Dodge on the Mann Gulch fire?
Woodsman
At 1:00 the interviewee refers to burning out ‘Wag Dodge style.’
Woodsman
I should say that I believe Mr. Dodge did the right thing in order to save his men – but let’s set that aside for a moment & contemplate what the legends’ effect may have on present day wff as a viable strategy to save a crew.
Woodsman
Wait! Wasn’t it mentioned that on a previous fire. GMIHC resorted to burning out around themselves as a survival tactic?!!?? Yes, I’m sure it was!
Am I on the right track to solidifying a major contributing factor here?
The ‘Wag Dodge Effect’ on a crew susceptible to glory seeking, attention gathering, and/or proving themselves to the wildfire community and their sponsoring agency in order to sustain themselves as the first and only Type 1 hotshot crew formed by a city fire department?
Yes, it’s coming together for me now. I’m on the exact right track.
Woodsman
And when recalling that the burnout to save themselves ‘worked out ok,’ the last time………..then why shouldn’t it work out equally as successfully this time – at Yarnell Hill? Wag Dodge did it. He was way before his time. His men didn’t understand what he was trying to do & if they did, they all would have survived! You just burn out an area & hop in and we will all survive as well.
Woodsman
The old and proven Burnout is a basic training technique.
The Fire shelter add to the equation after the fact.
You have a crew who for what ever reason seemed to put a deployment site over a safety zone.
I think they relied on the Fire shelter to heavily and used the burn out to increase their area which was small to begin with.
Their were a lot of other factors here that really decreased their.
chances.
The Canyon/flue or funnel effect the brush and the wind with very dry fuel. Where they were was as I see it a location where the wind created a blow torch effect. I have seen it in southern California. It totally consumes the Brush in normally 3 runs one after the other.
Fines, medium and the 3 to 6 inch fuels. Burns really clean.
Any way the best burn out in that situation is a lot of grass the brush just was not taking which compounded their problem. They were in the wrong place to survive what hit them.
There is also a good chance the fire wrapped around above them hitting the saddle just before the fire hit the mouth of the canyon and pulled the bottom fire up the canyon creating whirls and extreme heat in that hole.
Those like my self who believed what Wag did also understood the fuel type he did it in.
I think their was more reliance in the shelter than in a safe plan.
once they committed to that canyon the only thing they could have thought of was to stay near the big bolder areas for possible retreat.
Bu if they considered that then they were admitting they were in the fucking wrong place. the Boulders would not save 19 and only or maybe a few could have survived that’s not what anyone should consider.
I an emergency what were they going to do if they were not at the ranch.
No one considered that question a simple one.
Always take a what if attitude before stepping in a pile of shit.
Wag was in grass on a fairly steep hill side he could have spread fire out 20 feet and walked into the burn following the fire which he did but not as big due to using small fire starts.
Like I have said before I always carried 3 Fusees in my shelter pack
for emergencies only. But you have to have a good opening with grass.
Bob,
I want to set aside for now any judgment of what Wag did right or wrong, I’m talking about the influence it may have on firefighters today and possibly GM – the legendary story of Mann Gulch and the escape fire purposely set to create a survivable area. Apparently GM used this tactic before and had the perception of success with it.
This folklore or cultural history is what I’m calling the ‘Wag Dodge Effect.’ A maneuver which has gone down in the history books and studied for decades by wildland firefighters. Street cred builder, if you will.
“The ‘Wag Dodge Effect’ on a crew susceptible to glory seeking, attention gathering, and/or proving themselves to the wildfire community and their sponsoring agency in order to sustain themselves as the first and only Type 1 hotshot crew formed by a city fire department?”
Woodsman
Some times it works some times it doesn’t
But it is like the Fire Shelter it is a last ditch decision.
not a plan.
Wag Dodge had the perfect place to use it in a large grass slope.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
February 24, 2016 at 9:41 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Wag Dodge had the perfect place to use
>> it in a large grass slope.
Keyword: ‘grass’.
Dodge was making his ‘decisions’ in an absolute predictable fuel bed with a known, consistent ‘height’ and, therefore, predictable ‘flame lengths’.
He knew all he had to do was have an area large enough to protect him from direct flame contact and, even though it was going to get hot as hell, if the fire moved fast enough and ‘burned around him’ fast enough while he remained free of direct flame contact… he *might* survive.
And he did ( because of no direct flame contact ).
Every member of Granite Mountain was subjected to direct flame contact for an extended period of time… some more than others.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> But it is like the Fire Shelter it is a last ditch
>> decision.not a plan.
>>
>> Some times it works some times it doesn’t
I do see Woodsman point, though.
There isn’t even any evidence that there was ANY kind of ‘After Action Review’ of even just the one time on the Nevada fire when they reported having to ‘run’ to escape a situation and then ‘burn out the safety zone’.
Maybe they did come to think “If that worked once… it will work again… so no reason to change our ‘Ranger Danger’ behavior. We even have ‘experience’ now with the ’emergency burnout’ thing. Worked like a champ! Giddyup! Full speed ahead!”.
Along with other things you are right.
And grass fires provide a hell of a lot less heat.
You can run fast jump the flames into the burn
and you are safe should the fir get around you.
Its the Fuel stupid its the Fuel
Just a saying not directed at any one.
It has to be the right fuel in the right conditions to even improve your cleared area.
Do you think that Jesse Steed considered, even for a moment, just telling the men to use their shelters as ‘forward shields’ and just RUN directly at the fireline… HOPING they might reach some good black on the other side BEFORE burning to death?
Crazy… yes… but they didn’t have a whole lot of options and it’s never really been discussed whether they might have considered THAT one.
Is that ‘option’ ever even ‘discussed’ when they are training these guys? Are they ever even taught when to recognize that that MIGHT be an ‘option’… depending on the circumstances?
If the fireline really WAS moving AT Granite Mountain at 12 miles per hour right before they laid down to die… then maybe charging into the fireline itself WOULD have brought them into some kind of ‘black’ on the other side of it… before they burned to death.
They may have come out looking like Daniel Lyon from the Twisp fire… who had to go through 20 to 30 feet of flames and up an embankment before reaching the road…
…but maybe a few of them would have survived?
Woodsman,
Excellent training video on ESCAPE that I was unaware of. I will definitely be using this in future training sessions and refreshers. Thanks.
And this is really an irrelevant (to the YHF) rabbit trail. But what the heck, I have a public forum here.
As far as the War on Drugs went, we got our asses kicked. And although I had fun being stupid, it was a total waste of money. If you want to make a good start fixing the country, legalize marijuana nationwide and let everybody out of prison who is there for a marijuana related offense since it costs about $100,000 a year to incarcerate each one of them. That would put the private prison industrial complex out of business that costs our nations billions of wasted dollars every year, fix all of the schools in the nation with the savings and you would have money left over.
Like I said, that drug is legally sold everywhere you look here in Washington State and society hasn’t fallen apart while it is taxed it to the maximum. No…dope (and you know why they call it dope don’t you) is not a good thing, but it is far less destructive to our society than alcohol.
I have talked to some potheads I have met here in Washington I have met randomly and their big complaint is that the state now competes with the illegal pot growers and sellers that had put them out of business to a great extent. And the big problem? Pot is a lot more expensive to buy now because the state tax on it is so high (no pun intended) they can’t smoke as much of it.
Those boys I held in my arms and interacted on the best day I ever had working in law enforcement are adults now. Every time I look at that photo I wonder how they turned out. What kind of chance do you think they had to realize the American Dream? I hope it turned out well for them, but the odds were really against them achieving a successful life through no fault of their own.. And as I have said, I always play the odds. How do you think it worked out for them?
Okay…I just woke up from a nice long nap and I think I MIGHT be able to explain this to my good friend…Bob. I respect Bob so much I am willing to give it one more try.
So for everyone who is rolling their eyes out there at our pointless rabbit trail, this might bring it back into focus for you and help explain what the issue is and why this conversation has been worth it.
Bob finally gave me enough information to put it all together while we are waiting for WTKTT to get back from wherever the hell he goes and whatever the hell he does when he gets there.
I told everyone that my fire line mentors are/were named Ron, Hub and Richard. I am leaving Orlando out of it because he was younger than any of the others and I don’t know what he did when he retired.
I used to run into Richard once in a while when he was working in SERVICE as an AD casual pick up firefighter after he retired. He did not pick up the lunches at the local diner and drive them out to the fire camp but he made sure somebody did and the firefighters got fed.
That is a very critical job and very important and Richard would have made sure those firefighters got fed and got everything else they needed because Richard knew how to take care of business and he didn’t let anybody stand in his way of getting the job done.
I already told you that I ran into Ron working for the Arizona State Division of Forestry in their Fire Operations Coordination Center. Ron had extensive fire line experience and knew wildfire frontwards and backwards and knowing all of that is indispensable when working in a coordination center.
I used to run into Hub once in a while working as a casual AD pick up firefighter working in expanded dispatch for everyone it seemed. Not only did Hub have extensive fire line experience for decades, he had been the forest dispatcher on the Coconino after leaving the Long Valley District (our home).
Hub ended up working as THE COORDINATOR (the highest and most important position a fire tech can aspire to in the nation, he was one of the 10 Chosen I spoke about in an earlier post) for the Intermountain Region R-4 out of Ogden Utah. I even had the privelge to go up and work for Hub in his Regional Coordination Center (the SWCC of another region) one time as a dispatcher.
In fact, the last time I had a nice visit with Hub was when I ran into him working for the BLM down in Yuma shortly before I retired as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Senior Special Agent) working for the USDI BLM Washington D.C Office of Law Enforcement & Security and he told all of the young LE BLM uniform guys and the agents who worked for me, (we where having a big joint mass casualty incident mock drill) the same story he always told about me that embarrassed me and all of us had another good laugh at my expense.
To hear the details of the story you are going to have to buy my highly anticipated book, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” that will feature Dr. Puntam’s revised history of the Battlement Creek Fire and you can now download Chapter One for free that tells about the Battlement Creek Fire from my perspective here.
http://ourfiregods.com/battlementcreekfire.html
I think it was WONDERFUL and CRITICAL that all of the extensive and very important experience which was without a doubt more than 100 years combined of all three of these men, who are my mentors and heroes, could be used to benefit wildland firefighters and the overall mission and objective on controlling wildfires that threaten our nation’s property, citizens and economy.
Get it?
This is NOT what the Arizona State Division of Forestry was doing with those USFS retirees on the Yarnell Hill Fire and if you can’t see this by now (not Bob…others) and can’t understand the difference than FUCK YOU…not Bob…others, there is no hope in trying to explain ANYTHING to you.
Hub is the one who called me while I was working for the BLM up in Farmington New Mexico, and told me Richard had died a couple of weeks after the last time I talked to him.
It was one of the saddest days of my life. But I will be forever grateful to Hub for calling me and letting me know Richard was gone. .
And now we are on the same Page
And we both have the same Friend Hub Harris worked with him a lot when he was at the R4 dispatch. Many training sessions and a few Bars.
Thanks for reminding me of a Great Friend. I have not seen him in 25 years.
Retirees are not all equal and not all top notch Fire Men. But some stand out.
I guess I could also add never had real trust in any FF at the 3 or 4 level and was leery of
type 2’s that were not attached to a full team. Never liked the short team concept
.
Thank you Bob.
Yes, Hub is a great man and he hired me to be a hotshot. Hub gave me a chance to make it when others would have sent me down the road kicking a can.
I owe everything to Ron, Hub, Richard and Orlando.
and too many others to list here in this format.
History Gary—-
When I started in the 60’s and thru the 70’s there was no FF Retirement
Retirement was a minimum 30 years at age 55.
Many of the FMO on Districts were in their 60’s buy the time they were retiring 60 to 65.
Those are the bosses I knew and I was trained by My old FMO Burt Hutchison was 60 when I went to work for him and Retired at 65 with 35 years a GS 9 he started before WWII along with the FMO on my dads District that was in his mid 50’s when we moved to Springville in 1961 he retired at 64 early 1970’s.
Back in the 30’s to the 50’s Many FMO’s started in the FS. and most never retired before they were 60. You can call them Old Codgers or Geezers but to me they were the real Fire Fighters that trained many of us into what we became in Wild Land Fire. They were taskmasters and gave us real life lessons I never considered any of them over the Hill.. Men like Biddison’s and Lee’s James
and others who moved FF forward into the 80’s all before Fire Fighter Retirement.
I guess that’s why I am old school and actually worked for guys in there late 50’s and early 60s
They were never considered Geezers we would have been kicking a can down the road to have even said that. All of us looked up to them On Many Fires they were in charge of that we went to.
That’s the history lesson never think guys in there 60’s are all washed up and no longer functional
Age has nothing to do with ability.
That’s what it’s still like for state, Bob. 30 years and 55. No H-pay here either. That Hazard Pay and 25 year retirement stuff is for the cream puff Forest Circus boys. No firefighter or LEO differential either – management says we are part time fire because fire season is not 12 months of the year. I should have gone fed I guess.
Woodsman
Well 20 0r 25 years wont pay the bills,
They also screwed us on the High 3 which only included base pay no OT or Hazard.
In other words Grosse Pay did not count in the high 3 average to set your base retirement. Had it I would have added an extra $8,000 to the total.
so the Time and a half and Hazard is nice but you can’t take it with you.
I could have stayed another 5 to 55 but my new boss Forest FMO was 15 years my junior and a total kiss ass with half the Qualifications I had so after 3 years of that and 50 I pulled the pin. I did not want to move so I sealed my own fate.
Again I think the FF Retirement has run its course with the FERS program replacing Civil Service retirement which will keep people from retiring at 50 or 60.
with half of the retirement being Social Security they are now going to the 62 to 66
To Retire with full benefits So what goes around comes around.
Bob…you are not smarter than all of the science that says age does in fact have a great deal to do with the ability to deliver, otherwise there would not be any erectile dysfunction drugs on the market. But I am tired of arguing with you. We are two old men arguing about something that is beyond ridiculous, which is beyond sad. We have now fallen to a point so low on this blog that almost everyone feels sorry for us.
They feel sorry for you that you believe something so…ridiculous, which IS the best word I can come up with. And they feel sorry for me that I can’t convince you of something that is obvious to everyone except some old men who think denial is only a river in Egypt.
You are also wrong about almost everything else in your latest posts, but I am going to have to get drunk to take a stab at even trying to address them. And I haven’t drank since I was able to quit interacting with hotshots in their natural environment. But here is just one for old times’ sake.
Social Security is NOT one half of the FERS retirement system; it is one third of the three legs they always talk about. The other two legs are a generous Thrift Savings Plan (401k) AND a pension that is based on your years of service. It is a much smaller pension than you could earn under the CSRS, but it is still a pension.
I ought to know, I locked in 22 years under CSRS and then I voluntarily switched and did 8 more under FERS because the numbers looked so good, and they still do. Federal employees can do very well under FERS but they do have more responsibility to save their own money. You are also wrong about the age requirements; those did not change from the CSRS to FERS.
Yes, you made a lot of mistakes in how you managed your career as did many other technicians who did not want to move or attain higher education and training. But that does not mean that we should sacrifice developing a future generation of wildland fire commanders so we can have a SUPPLEMENTAL retirement system to help them make up for all of their poor life decisions.
I don’t remember if I have mentioned this fact here before, but in any case, I will mention it again. I retired as a GS-13 step 8 and the overtime hours I worked did follow me into retirement in the form of a 25% bump as part of the LEAP law created by Congress to help compensate law enforcement and recruit and retain some of the best.
BUT…I paid a big price for those numbers. Our oldest daughter went to two different highs schools hundreds of miles apart and our middle child, our son went to the same two different high schools but I added one more for him in another state. I worked in a total of 7 different duty stations that included going from MY forever place, Flagstaff, Arizona, to New Mexico, back to Arizona and then back to New Mexico, another move in New Mexico and then back to Phoenix three years before I was set to retire. We started over on 6 different mortgagees and never came close to paying off any of them.
I left MY forever place after the USFS transferred the money to what was considered by those of us who worked as part of the Praetorian Guard at the Kremlin to be outer Siberia where the criminals were sent (we were wrong about that, but I didn’t know that until after I got there).
And must I remind you, I didn’t leave my USFS tech job, it left me in the form of serious health problems that resulted in the offer of a medical disability retirement at age 30. I still wheez wherever I go and gasp for breath during every conversation. Don’t accuse me of not leaving everything on the fucking playin’ field!
Oh…and one more thing, were you bitten by a college graduate when you were a child (MIB I)? Let me know if you want me to start a Go Fund Me site to raise money to get you some counseling for that AND a financial planner.
P.S., Was the career that turned my dear wife and I into tumbleweeds worth it? FUKIN’ A! If I had it to do over again, I wouldn’t change a thing, except I would try harder to get it right next time. If was an E-TICKET Ride! And I want to thank all of the citizens of our great nation for the opportunity and honor to serve you for more than 30 years. God Bless America!
Whoops…can’t even spell fucking anymore…it should be FUCKIN” playin’ field.
Double whoops, it should be “FUCKIN” A” I need a drink and like I said, I don’t even drink.
Ah, the old erectile dysfunction analogy. Classic. You’re killing me, Gary! Haha!
Woodsman
WOODSMAN! ED IS NO LAUGHING MATTER! It afflicts tens of millions of aged men (your author excluded) ABILITY to deliver!
And just in case anyone has missed it, and wants to see what an E-Ticket Ride looks like WITH Bitchin’ sounds tracks, you can do so here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlnmLnoXENE
and here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lPaaWsib8
And by the way, all of my mentors and heroes were so old school wildland firefighters they all taught me how to fight fire in one room school houses!
USFS FMO Hub Harris made me a hotshot: USFS FMO Richard Allred made me a hotshot crew boss; and USFS FMO Orlando Romero gave me a home as a hotshot crew boss AND USFS FMO Ron Melcher took me in as a 19 year old kid off the mean streets of Prescott, Arizona, and made me into a wildland firefighter!
Oh…and one more thing. Geez, the last time I talked to Ron he had retired from the USFS and was working for the Arizona Division of Forestry. I hope Ron isn’t
pissed off at me because he gets a lifetime waiver as well!
Gary,
Just to be clear I wasn’t laughing at people suffering the affliction of ED, just the choice of it as an analogy. Using it as an example of ‘we’re not what we used to be’ as we get older, is funny.
I have made fun of the older people I’ve worked with since I started. Little by little it’s not as funny as it once was – because I’m slowly becoming the ‘old guy.’ It will be my job soon to be made fun of and I’m fine with that. Circle of life thing.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
So…you are sayin’ you know first hand about the shame and embarrassment of erectile dysfunction?
You know they do make little blue pills for that, not that I would know about them from personal experience or have ever seen them, but I do watch a lot of television.
Wait…they never show the color of the little pills on TV so…
Gary,
I do not have the authority to testify as a subject matter expert on the condition known as erectile dysfunction at this time.
Woodsman
You are indeed a blessed man my friend. Enjoy it while it lasts. All good things must come to an end. I have lived long enough to learn that even if I haven’t learned anything else.
And yes, I see what you did there……hahahaha!
Woodsman
Well Gary I think the Facts speak louder than age.
Those who retire at 50 or 55 still have some good years left in them.
Though all the retirees do not go back to work for varied reasons I would say about 10% do and accomplish mush in the time they invest.
My friends here with FERS have been hit hard by the Investment side of it loosing Thousands in the past 8 years. Most adjusting to waiting to meet the SS age to retire, or take a reduced annuity.
By going back to work at 50 I was able to build my SS Quarters
from 12 to 40 and more. While I only get Half of the SS due to the Civil service retirement I got an addition to my income that some did not get because they retired older or with physical problems.
No I did not get a Retirement from the Sheriffs Department because I was Part time even though I worked 35 hours a week.
But I got and built my SS at $15.00 a hour. It was a good second income while it lasted.
You say you learned a lot from the old guys and then call all the current old guys Washed up old Geezers.
I always love your double takes.
Our original discussion was were the overhead on Yarnell old and incapable of running the fire. I do not believe Age had any thing to do with the Management decisions. Nor could we ever prove that in this situation. IC 3&4 were way in over their heads on this fire.
The State was trying to save money and not commit the overhead and forces they needed that cost the FF’s and the Property owners
in the end.
C’mon Bob, you know how much I love you. You helped build our house and I stood on your shoulders (yikes) you know I’m just fuckin’ with you…right?
You are like me, you worked with a lot of Grade A ball busters over the years. We are all a products of our environments, so it is NOT my fault!
And you know how the market goes, it goes up, it comes down, it goes up, it comes down, it goes back up again. Like the Woodsman says, the Circle of Life…wait a minute, that’s linear, but you know what I tryin’ to say…right?.
But I do have one really good stock tip for you though, always buy low and sell high. If you follow that rule, you will make out like a bandit!
Clarification; I had a nice visit with Ron over at the Arizona State Forestry Fire Operations Center while I was working for the BLM the last time in Phoenix. Ron had the good sense not to work for them in Fire Line Operations and Command, he had a nice office job with no heavy lifting.
I used to run into both Ron and my first District Ranger Jerry Ellison all of the time on the fire line during my years as a hotshot.
Like I have said before, there are exceptions to every rule and Jerry was an exception to the normal USFS manager.
Jerry was one of the good ones and an excellent wildland firefighter from the old school of college educated foresters.
If Jerry set a backfire or a back burn, it would be in the right place at the right time.
Correction.
I am pretty sure Jerry’s last name was Elson, not Ellison. It has been more than 40 years. In any case if Jerry started a burn out or a back fire they would be in the right place at the right time.
Jerry was a very good wildland firefighter and a good manager who took care of his people. But Bob is right, most Rangers (the top boss for every USFS district) suck at fightin’ wildfire and most of the new ones are not even interested in learning. They just want to sit in their offices and fuck with their people.
Glad it was not my brother Jerry. He just got out of prison after 27 years. “Took no shit off no body, even his older brother Tex. Somehow I understand–living free in the mountains in a tent most of our lives and me feeding that litt;le fuck with poached venison I can understand some of his attitude. He went south and I went north. Good thing for me cause I would have hated 27 years in a Florence Az prison. But now I do know tha the cookie cutter mentality has turned our free world into a police state. Can we change it? Look at how this Yarnell incident went to a cover up issue. Look at how the FBi bothers with the 41 dead but skirths 17 heroes dead because of faulty bosses. Will cookie cutter mentality change these abominations? I doubt it. Most are educated into this system of get it while you can. Fuck the truth and forget 17 dead because of ignorance.
correct that 14 dead vs. 19 at Yarnell
Gary,
I haven’t seen the 2nd video before. Couple of points:
1. Cool song
2. make the pictures last longer, I kept having to pause it
3. Did you burn out to eradicate all of those weird plants with the odd looking leaves and watch the wind while you did it?
Woodsman
ps: I’ll keep watching it periodically so you can show views north 100, hell it may hit 200! You never know, man.
1. Yes, very cool song.
2. I would like to do that, but it means leaving too many cool photos out.
And the biggest reason is that one thing that I have learned over the years making photo slideshows for my road trip and Jeeping (and soon ATV videos just as soon as I talk my dear wife into buying me an airdog drone that will automatically follow me while I ride) is that the American people have about a 30 second attention span. And it is really hard to get someone to watch anything for more than length of time as you can see by my low numbers on my videos.
Now if I shaved my back and put on a bikini (dumb ass men don’t care just as long as something is bouncing) or could hire a hot chick who doesn’t have to shave her back to ride in my Jeep and bounce, I would get about a bazillion hits..
3. No, I always stood in the wind whenever possible that is why I moved to Washington, that shit is now sold legally everywhere you look, which means the joke is on me.
I’m glad I wasn’t killed doing something so stupid as trying to stand between many of the American people and that shit. At least they paid me to be stupid and now they are paying me to watch my own videos of me being stupid.
Go to my YouTube channel and you can see just how bored I have been since I retired. But you know what they say, if it is not on YouTube, it didn’t happen.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DeadEndPSA
In addition, this is all about ARTISTIC expression. It is critical to have the photos keep pace with beat and the tempo of the song, the slower songs can slower moving photos.
Although like I said, the faster the photos go by, the more likely it is someone will watch it to the end. The trick is to kind of mesmerize them.
It is a very complicated hobby and you would be shocked if I told you how much time I spend doing stupid stuff like this. The only thing I can say in my deference is that I hate making bird houses.
Cool story, I am like Bob, most of them run together.
But his one I remember.
My favorite photo ever taken during my career in LE was of me holding those two little Navajo boys, which is why it is the last photo (almost) in my slideshow.
That was deep inside the rez where very few people ever go and their mother was so impressed with how big I am, she insisted that I hold her sons for that photo even though she didn’t speak English (her daughters of course did).
One of the slick’s pilots had a disposable camera and all of those photos were left with her (and a bunch more) in that camera for her to keep. It was really a neat day. Those kids were a lot of fun.
Although we weren’t up there to have fun, we were there to do the Lord’s work. Hallelujah! Can I get an Amen!
Whoops, forgot the neatest part of the story. Their mother actually picked them up and handed them to me and at first I couldn’t figure out what she wanted me to do, but she made me understand by motioning with her arms and hands for me to hold them up for the photo.
Double Whoops,
My old white guy orientation is showing, I should have said, “very few or no OUTSIDERS ever go that deep onto the rez” I’m sure lots of other people go there on a regular basis.
And I forgot the other neatest part of the story. The pilots put the whole family in and around the chopper for a photo shoot with that disposable camera.
The pilots even showed them how to fly it, but none of them actually got to take it up for a spin because it was a military slick.
Although I doubt that any of the family would have gotten to actually fly it, even if it had been a contract ship.
Thoughts For The Day
1. Bob – I was working in law enforcement when they raised the age for public safety from 55 to 57, so I never actually saw it in writing from personnel that fire was raised to 57 as well. But I think you are wrong.
The argument was that 60 is the new 40 or whatever, people were living longer and being healthier than they were when the system was first created and a lot of people in the system bitched about being forced to retire early.
So OPM did their research and studies etc. and agreed to move it up to 57. But I don’t think they created two systems out of one. The same logic they applied to LE being able to work longer applied to fire, so I am pretty damn sure they raised it to 57 for everyone in public safety.
2. Does anybody out there still wonder why I hate ICS and think it destroyed complex fire management? What a bizarre fucking discussion by recognized SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS! My GOD…think of the people who ARE NOT subject matter experts. No wonder the Yarnell Hill Fire was fucked up, you just don’t know about all of the other fires that are just as fucked up!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg
3. Bob as I have said before…I love you and RTS like brothers, but you guy’s are way too close to they system and your opinions always default to a defense of the system of the people in it and the people running it.
You (in particular) always go to point in being critical of they system and then you stop short of saying what needs to be said because you still are one of them in your heart and actions, and RTS is even worse because he is still actively involved in the system on the fire line.
Your list of who can do what on fires after they retire was the same as mine, except you slipped in LINE, which includes OPERATIONS and COMMAND. Please see WTKTT post on when airline pilots have a maximum retirement age under which they can still fly the fucking plane full of people.
Then review my previous posts on the mandatory age limit for public safety, which is law enforcement and FIRE. Then take a look at all of the research and language from both OPM and CONGRESS and then please don’t try to tell me that you are smarter and know better than all of them combined because you are not.
Once again, and please pay attention this time because I am getting tired of repeating myself on this thread.
Old geezers who have reached the maximum age limit under which all of the science says they can optimally perform the minimally acceptable requirements for their position description cannot continue to perform those same function for other agency under a new name because they can be picked as part time employees and therefore are much, much, much cheaper to hire than young people to perform the same job, but with all of their reflexes and brain neurons still firing at their peak level of performance.
Here are the jobs old geezers who are past their prime, in spite of the fact that both you and they think they are exceptions to the rule. I can assure you they are not, otherwise airlines who are always doing everything they can to cut costs and employees are the biggest cost, would their mandatory retired pilots to fly their fucking commercial airliners.
But that doesn’t happen, those pilots who still think they are God;s gift to aviation after they reach the maximum age get hired to business executives, rock stars and other rich people around in their private planes because they are not common carriers.
I then I have to “laugh” (as in NOT funny) every time one of those old geezers fly a bunch of rock stars into the side of the fucking mountain. And then I ask to the thin air…what the FUCK did you think would happen when you hired an old geezer to fly your fucking private plane, Your odds of that happening went from ACCEPTABLE to NON ACCEPTABLE.
1. Supply
2. Finance
3. Logistics
4. Communications
5. Service
5. Expanded Dispatch
6. Public Information
6. Safety
7. Similar jobs…have them pick up the sack lunches at the local diner and drive them out to fire camp.
Roy Hall and most of his team where TOO old to be running the Yarnell Hill Fire. That was NOT a casual factor in killing the crew. But it WAS the primary factor why they almost killed hundreds of the good citizens of Yarnell and its subdivisions etc.
Roy Hall and his team minds couldn’t wrap their heads around what was happening and they lacked the functional ability to get ahead of that fucking fire, it was smarter than they were and it didn’t have the ability to THINK! They did, and the fire still out thought and outperformed them. The fire was limited by the laws of nature and physics, they were only limited by their ability to think and react…and that was woefully inadequate for the task at hand. The State of Arizona is still playing with FIRE and peoples lives and property because they have never stopped or even slowed down using those same old geezers and others just like them because they work CHEAP!
The Yarnell Hill Fire team’s PERFORMANCE proves I AM RIGHT! They flew that fucking plane into the side of a mountain!
GET IT! GOT IT! GOOD! So…no more questions then? No. Great, let’s move on.
LINE – COMMAND – OPERATIONS – NO
HAVE A NICE DAY! 🙂
.
Please excuse all of the typos etc., but I am sure you will still be able to piece my tirade together enough to be able to pick up what I was putting down. So…
Well Gary I guess I speak of when I retired and for got about when they increased the Mandatory to 57.
It was 55 for along time and 50 with 20 or more years of service still stands
I went at 50 1994 Feb. by June of 1994 early retirement from the Government was paying an early out of $25,000 for those eligible to retire that went on for a couple of years guess what a whole lot of Federal employees in FS and BLM took that offer
Needless to say I was pissed I missed it by 4 months the extra $25,000.
Also might add the new FERS retirement dose not allow for the FF Retirement
since 1/2 is SS which you cant draw till after 62. All The Civil Service retirements are about all done they were under the FF Retirement system. So most now are working into their 60’s before they can retire. Old GEEZER’s
Any way back to the retirees working come on Gary you are way off base here
The FS and BLM offered because of shortages and retirees took them up on it.
These are not a bunch of old geezers they are healthy step tested and certified
Wild Land FF with 25 to 30 Plus years. It has carried on from there around 1995 and on.
Ill refer to my self at 50 I was certified for severial Fire jobs I was step tested regularly and Qualified Line when I retired.
I was fiscally fit enough to pass all the physical fitness tests and the mandatory Dr. exam to be hired as a Deputy Sheriff in 1995 which I did till I was 69..
That a on the street/County Job Arrests and occasional tussles with the Bad guys.
I trained in Brazilian Ground wrestling the last 10 years I worked .it is very Physical
Because of my age I kept in excellent shape and trained one a month with my Nephew who was the instructor for the Local police departments. I quit because arthritis was slowing me down and I was pushing 70. It was time……
On the other hand Gary you went to BLM Law enforcement both my self and RTS along with many other Federal Fire Fighters stuck with and loved our FS or BLM jobs some carried that into retirement. And worked for a few years as AD.
What do you believe is a old Geezer? I am By know But RTS is over 10 years younger than me. Old Geezer 50- 55- 60- 65 Gary is your brain gone to or just those that worked longer than you. Your what around 60 and Driving dune buggy’s? 7o is the new 50’s or did you miss that? Not all of us have Alzheimer’s–
I still Ride and work Horses Train Dogs Hunt Elk Deer Ducks and Geese Buck Hay and do construction on the side. I may be old but I ant dead And I have forgot nothing of what I learned and used for 33 years in Fire.
You totally have gone off a cliff on this and you know it You have not forgot any thing you learned either. So stop with this OLD GEEZER BULL SHIT—–
You my friend are truly an exception to the rule because you did work a really long time in LE after retiring from fire. And you were in unusually good shape and RTS HAS to be as well.
I just don’t believe very many people are like you. And RTS is going out as a Safety Officer…I think, which is one of my exceptions.
I know you believe what you are saying with all of your heart and I knew you would say that, and I know all of those old geezers like me would say the same thing.
Riding a quad like a bat out of hell to get my adrenaline dump is not the same thing we are talking about and besides that I am unbreakable, so I can’t get banged up. Plus, I shouldn’t be doing what i am doing but I have always pushed the envelope (as I have bragged about at least a hundred times).
And I don’t want to insult you anymore than I already have, but I am guessing you worked for a small rural sheriff’s office, and yes, I frequently saw and worked with deputies over the years who were old enough to be my grandfather and I alwasy thought that was wrong. You will not see any 50 plus year old (not that YOU couldn’t) men being hired to work for any moderately progressive (non rural and modern) police departments or sheriffs departments even though YOU could.
Why don’t you check out the hiring requirements for the Maricopa Sheriffs Departments or Orange County and tell me you think it would go if you walked in the door at more than 50 today and asked for a job application.
There are age restrictions Bob, you know that as will as I do. There is a MAXIMUM entry age into federal law enforcement…period. There is a maximum entry age into federal fire management of 35…period.
There are reasons for that Bob, and all of the science is against you.
I am sorry to be the one to tell you this.
Old geezers….those over 57 years of age should not be part of any tactical team where reflexes and cognitive skills need to operating at their peak performance and neither should fire line command and operations staff,. Yes…the fire may be one they can get away with it on, but then the old geezers who had to retire from the US Forest Service because the Office of Personnel Management and all of the Congressional Staffers and interest groups who put together the mandatory age restrictions for public safety retirement are not wrong and you and Roy Hall are right.
Don’t worry, I know how hard Roy Hall and those like him are laughing today at what I’am saying, but there wasn’t anybody laughing on the Yarnell Hill Fire when those old guys couldn’t wrap their heads around what was happening and couldn’t get in front of that bitch.
Would blue flame hard charging young fire commanders in their prime have gotten their asses kicked until their noses bled? I never saw it happen and we fought fires every bit as bad as the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The proof is in the pudding. Roy Hall and his team of geezers flew that fucking plane smack into the middle of the mountain….no excuses, they really fucked up
Sorry Bob…that is what happened. Check the wildland firefighting history book. You can’t rewrite it and neither can they. They can pretend it didn’t happen and I saw Roy Hall being interviewed after the SAIR came out saying how satisfied he was that it absolved him of any blame for incompetence. But all of us know the SAIR was a big lie. Right?
Double whoops. The maximum entry age for me was 35, but that got bumped to 37 when they raised the maximum retirement age. So it is 37 for all public safety employees.
Like I have said several times. No one gets to say, “Whoops…the fire exponentially exceeded my expectations, didn’t see that one coming…sorry about that.”
There are a lot of perks that go with the top jobs, but those same jobs come with a lot of responsibility. And when things go wrong, those top people are SUPPOSED to accept that responsibility. Right?
If you get paid the big bucks and get to roll in it when everything goes good, you get to eat the shit sandwiches when everything goes wrong. Right?
We aren’t making any excuses for Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed or we? They OWN it we say.
So…pray tell. I would really like the person(s) who do not think Roy Hall and his elite fire team flew that fucking plane called the Yarnell Hill Fire right into the mountain side, to please post why you don’t think that happened.
And if you thing it did happen, but I am wrong as to why it happened, please blog why you think it went so horribly wrong.
Why were they out thought by a wildfire that couldn’t think?
Why was the wildfires actions and reactions quicker than theirs?
How and why was the Yarnell Hill Fire able to kick their asses?
Well Gary I hate to tell you but Law enforcement through out the country
are required by law they can not discriminate due to Age Sex or national origin. As long as they meet the Physical requirements. and pass the
testing and the 10 weeks of Law POST which runs you into the ground like the Army. Through out the country there are graduates every year over 50.
If you get the Police flyers like I do
Also Twin Falls County and City are the 3 largest in the State.
125 officers and a 200 inmate Jail. and a 6 judge court system.
Not bad for little ol Idaho.
Hay Ill Keep my views on all the Old Geezers Who have more brains and ability than people like Marsh.
And the fire had nothing to do with Physical it had to do with people that did not know how to manage a fire. The fire took over and they played catchup. Happens with under qualified and over rated people.
Seen that over the years some Rangers thought they could run fires till they realized they were in over their heads.
Forgot to add POST in Idaho has no age limit.
Don’t know about the other States based on Age Discrimination I thing the all take over 50 and they either wash out or make it
Yes, that is a fairly large department. However, you are only half right about the age limits. Like I said, some don’t, but most do. And you were 50 you said, we are talking about 57.
And if it was age discrimination like you said, the federal government would not be able to put an age limit of 37 on fire and LE would they?
I’m sorry Bob, we can sit here for hours and blog back and forth about anecdotal stories, exceptions and what are personal opinions are but none of that matters.
You are wrong. All of the science on the topic say’s you are wrong. If you weren’t wrong, there would not be a maximum age limit for federal fire fighters and law enforcement officers not to mention airline pilots. Everyone would be judged individually and a few exceptional individuals such as yourself would be able to challenge the system and win.
BUT…that would be too costly, arbitrary and sujective, so they don’t go down that road, NOT the U.S. Congress, the Office Of Personnel Management, airline pilot unions, FLEOA, all fo the other unions, nobody beats that science.
The best they could do was bitch their heads off and file grievances and court challenges for years while I wished they would keep their fucking mouths shut because I thought we had a pretty good deal and I didn’t want some gung ho workaholics to fuck it up for me so in the end after all of that they got two more years.
Not umpteen more years as you seem to thing is OK. We are not talking about the equivalent of a desk sergeant here Bob, we are talking about the equivalent of tactical team commanders and I for one, don’t want guy’s who all of the science say neither their body functions nor their brains are working as well as they used to.
RTS, Roy Hall and everyone else like them are taking jobs away from young people who deserve the same chance to get a good job and get ahead with some benefits and enough money to feed their family just like you, RTS and I got when we started out and if a bunch of used up, burned out, washed up old geezers would have been glutting the system because they can’t let go, well then….they are buddy fuckers (this does not refer to males who anally penetrate other males for sexual pleasure with their male organs, it refers to those who take advantage of others unfairly, those who they should be watching out for).
The reason Roy Hall and RTS are able to work so cheap? They are already have all of their benefits locked in as part of their retirement that are already being paid out of different pots of money so it appears as thought they are cheap.
Cheap? How much did the Yarnell Hill Fire cost because Roy Hall could not out think, out perform, out maneuver, or react faster than a force of nature that had to follow all fo the laws of nature to the letter and could not take any short cuts? And we did get away CHEAP by using bargain basement cut rate labor on that one, the true cost of that fire could have been incalculable, excluding the crew, because we KNOW that was Eric Marsh’s and Jesse Steed’s, fault and no one else’s, right?
But YOU and so many others RTS, your buddies at NIFC, Mike Dudley…all of you old hypocrites line up to give each other a pass and make excuses, Well…the fire exponentially outperformed their expectations…it wasn’t THEIR fault!”
Old HYPOCRITES AND BUDDY FUCKERS.
Oh…and one more thing. I would really like to know the name and the year, location etc. of the fire in history that is similar to how badly Roy Hall and his team mismanaged the Yarenll Hill Fire.
We can compare with Marsh and Steed did to the Loop Fire of 1966, the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 and the South Canon Fire of 1994.
YOUR TURN…who else fucked up as bad as Roy Hall did? What can we compare it to that makes it so damn understandable?
Mr. Bob,
You are one in 10,000…maybe 1 in 100,000. You should be proud of that. I know a few folks like you.
I am in my 40’s and I can see the writing on the wall that I am nearing the point of being physically ‘used up.’ I was a talented athlete in high school and have always been active. I always say that I’m not old I just have a lot of miles on me. I worked as a landscaper, roofer, and framing carpenter when I was younger. I probably have as many or more fireline hours under my belt than 95% of the personnel that work for my agency – some with over 40 years of service. I started with a hand tool digging line. No pencil whipped quals for me. unlike a lot of folks I come across.
I can already tell that I’m not capable of what I once was. I can still do more than most my age but now I know it’s different. I’d hate to know how many gallons of torch fuel or saw mix I have been through in my life. Like Mr. Eastwood said, ‘Man’s got to know his limitations.’ I am honest about mine. I need 14 more years of service before I can retire. By then I know I’ll be beyond used up. I’ve decided that I will not take any assignments in Operations after 50. It will be enough for me to cover my duties in my home district. My personal decision. Hats off to you for being able to do what you have done at your age.
After 50 I’m going to let the young guys take it. I would like to work into a Safety officer position or support to stay involved but I don’t know if I’ll even do that, The work wears on my mind as much or more than on my body. I don’t want to be a liability for either issue. I sure do like the extra money though but there’s more important things in life to me than money. I’m looking forward to the day when I can pass it all on to the younger guys and just not worry about it anymore.
I’m also going to retire as soon as I get my 30. By then I’ll have had my fill of the govt bullshit. I see too many of our folks linger and within a year or two they have health problems and pass away, I want to be physically able to enjoy retirement – like that old crazy codger Gary! That’s my goal and I’m sticking to it.
Woodsman
Some people seem to weather better than others.
But I can tell you my body has turned on me in the past 3 years.
It isn’t fun but hell I had a Good Run
Started behind a tool at 17 and worked my way up from a GS 3 grunt.
33 years. I also grew up in the Forest Service that’s all I knew all my life.
At age 50 it just got way to political and I had had enough of the way the Forest Service was going It wasn’t what it use to be.
Bob,
I’m a big fan of history and tradition. Thanks for your service. That’s really cool. I bet you have some great stories from the old days. Write them down if you can so others can see what it was like back then.
Idaho huh? My favorite state in the union!
Woodsman
I came here from California in 76 and never left Made it past GS-9 Step 10. I liked it so well here I quite looking for the Next higher job promotion. Where would I have gone that had Hunting Fishing Trail riding Team Roping and in my spare time Dirt Track Stock Car Racing. On top of my wife was born and raised here.
As for the stories they seem to run to gather any more.
Missed adding the maximum entry age for federal law enforcement is 35. There are some police departments etc. who do not have a maximum entry age, but I also bet you don’t see those departments hiring anybody over 57 years old.
In fact, I really would like to meet the (man or woman) who thinks he can work in a highly demanding law enforcement (or fire) after 57 where the best of the best under the worst of the worst circumstances is required.
And that is what we are talking about right? Not who can do the job when everything go right. We want those who can do the job when everything goes wrong. Roy Hall and his team were presented with that challenge. And they failed as bad as anybody could have failed. Like I said, THEY all believed the dead were going to be stacked up like cord wood from their complete incompetence.
You already know one RTS.
Reply to Woodsman post on
February 18, 2016 at 12:10 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I retract my statement that Cordes filled a position he was not qualified
>> for at Yarnell Hill. BUT……I can’t say with 100% confidence whether you are
>> correct and I am correct – because of the fact that Cordes records
>> are missing – Qualifications AND Resource order.
Someone can search/find all the “During initial action, all agencies (federal, state, local and tribal) accept each other’s standards” quotes you want to. That doesn’t change the specifics of what went down on Saturday night, June 29, 2013.
Forget the fact that the ordering that WAS taking place on Saturday night was because Russ Shumate had ALREADY ‘fucked up’ the Type 3 IA and he was now frantically ordering resourcs for the NEXT DAY ( and the Type 2 command team ).
What actually happened ( Saturday night ) was this…
– A SPECIFIC work order went out for a SPECIFIC set of skills/qualifications.
– Someone accepted that work order, and they were ALLOWED to accept it.
– That same person would later tell investigators they did NOT have
that SPECIFIC set of skills/qualifications.
ICT4 Russ Shumate contacted Arizona Dispatch on Saturday night and specifically told them to ‘order up’ 2 ( TWO ) “Structure Protection Specialists”, and to get them down to Yarnell RIGHT AWAY.
That’s when this entry appeared in the official ADC Dispatch Log…
————————————————————————————–
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:14:32
From: KM
To: PRESCOTT
Details: ALARM ROOM: NEED 2 STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALISTS TO
REPORT TO THE YARNELL HILL FIRE. IMMEDIATE NEED
—————————————————————————————
Nothing there about DIVS or OPS or ICT3 or any other acronym.
The SPECIFIC request was for the SPECIFIC skillset/quals of “Structure Protection SPECIALIST”.
Someone ( at Arizona Dispatch ) then somehow ‘decided’ their two ‘first choices’ to specifically fulfill two requests for the specific skillset of “Structure Protection Specialist” were… CYFD Battallion Chief Gary Cordes, and someone named Ralph Lucas.
Ralph Lucas was ‘out of state’… so they started scouting around for someone other than Cordes to fulfill the other order.
Arizona Dispatch then made it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that no matter who was ’rounded up’… they MUST have the SPECIFIC skillset/quals of “Structure Protection SPECIALIST”… becase THAT is what the orders are specifying the NEED is.
—————————————————————————————-
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:25:14
From: PRESCOTT
To: KM
Detail: ALARM: RALPH LUCAS IS OUT OF STATE. 1 OTHER PERSON THAT
MIGHT BE AVAILABLE. GARY CORDIS, WE ARE TRYING TO GET
AHOLD OF.// OKAY, AS LONG AS THE OTHER PERSON IS A
STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALIST, THAT’S WHAT WE NEED// OKAY
—————————————————————————————-
Again.. keyphrase ( coming directly from Arizona Dispatch Center )…
“AS LONG AS THE OTHER PERSON IS A STRUCTURE
PROTECTION SPECIALIST, THAT’S WHAT WE NEED.”
Gary Cordes ‘phones in’ to Arizona Dispatch and ACCEPTS the first “Structure Protection SPECIALIST” work order… and he is ALLOWED to ‘accept it’ whether he was actually ‘qualified or not’.
A little over two months later… Gary Cordes himself would tell ADOSH investigators that while he has been known to do ‘structure protection’ work on Wildland incidents… he doesn’t even consider HIMSELF to be any kind of SPECIALIST.
From Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013…
Q2 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
—————————————————————
91 Q2: Hey Gary, I was just wondering you – I’m gonna presume that you have a
92 structure uh, group specialist or however you got that on your red track?
93
94 A: No, I’m not a structure group specialist. However, most of the division work I
95 do is as a structured group, um, doing structure protection. But I’m not a
96 specialist.
—————————————————————
One more time ( forget all the acronym soup for a moment )…
– A SPECIFIC work order went out for a SPECIFIC set of skills/qualifications.
– Someone accepted that work order, and they were ALLOWED to accept it.
– That same person would later tell investigators they did NOT have
that SPECIFIC set of skills/qualifications.
One more time:
“In The Red Book, Chapter 8, Interagency Coordination and Cooperation, on page 10 discusses
“Qualifications/Minimum Requirements.”
“As per the NWCG memorandum Qualification Standards During Initial
Action, March 22, 2004 and the PMS 310-1″
“Wildland Fire Qualification System Guide”
“The 310-1 qualification/certification standards are mandatory only for national mobilization of wildland fire fighting resources.”
“During initial action, all agencies (federal, state, local and tribal) accept each other’s standards.”
“Once jurisdiction is clearly established, then the standards of the Agency(s) with jurisdiction prevail.”
The answer is within the ‘acronym soup’ that you want to just throw out and it’s likely an INTERPRETATION issue, so often the bane of the WFF.
I went with the type 3 incident complexity for the new orders and thus retracted. So which level were the orders made for, RTS, Type 3 or Type 2 ‘Short Team or standard Type 2 on the evening of the 29th? Not the existing – what they were planning for the next shift. Your premise lies with this answer. I may not be wrong at all. Is it typical or atypical for a STPS (Structure Protection Specialist) to be ordered up for a Type 3 incident? I’ll have to look into that myself.
Woodsman
I’m thinking it was for the Type 3 because of the ‘immediate need’ issue.
Atypical I think, Case specific even though more and more fires have structure defense issues.
RTS,
The orders were for a Type 2 incident the evening of the 29th.
Identifying characteristics include but not limited to: Geographic and/or functional area divisions established. This is not the case with a Type 3 complexity. Complex aviation operations. This is also not the case with a Type 3 incident.
I may have to retract my retraction.
Woodsman
RTS said:
“Under the Type 3 Organization outlined in the Red Book, he was fully qualified to serve in that role with either his DIVS qualifications or his Single Resource or Task Force Leader qualifications.”
Since it was not a Type 3 incident we are talking about and actually in the process of being phased into a Type 2 incident (officially transferred command a little after 1000 hrs on the 30th), where does leave us now?
Woodsman
Well… this gets even more confusing the more I delve into it.
The Yarnell Hill Fire was NEVER a ‘Type 3’ incident at all.
All day Saturday… it was officially designated as a ‘Type 4’.
Shumate was functioning in his ICT4 capacity ( not ICT3 ).
It was only after the fire ‘escaped’ on Saturday afternoon ( at the same time the Helicopter was dropping bladder bags right over the fire and putting its rotor wash down on it )… that Shumate called his boss ( Jim Downey ) and talked about what to do next.
At first… they talked about going FROM the current ‘Type 4’ status up to ‘Type 3’… but they quickly rejected that.
So they ‘skipped right over’ a ‘Type 3’ status and then started talking ‘Type 2’. Then it was all about whether to go with a ‘Type 2 Short’ or a full blown ‘Type 2’ ( Bea Day’s Type 2 team was completely available on Saturday and could have been called up ).
Actually… they considered going to just a ‘Type 3’ team for about a half-hour, and during that time actually went ahead and ‘ordered up’ Paul Musser to be the ‘Type 3 Incident IC’ ( ICT3 ) for Sunday, June 30, 2013.
But they quickly knew that it was bigger than a ‘Type 3’ and that ICT3 order for Paul Musser was cancelled an hour after it went out.
From Jim Downey’s own ADOSH interview…
A = Jim Downey ( ICT4 Russ Shumate’s boss )
————————————————————
A: So, to answer your question, I think, if I understood you correctly – no. The Type 3 team, I don’t believe, was engaged. It went from a Type 4 to an extended attack and let’s order the Type 2 team.
————————————————————
There is NO QUESTION, however, that by as early as 6:47 PM on Saturday evening, June 29, 2013… Russ Shumate and his boss Jim Downey had already arrived at the conclusion that they were going with a ‘Type 2 Short’ team… and that Roy Hall would be leading it.
The Dispatch Logs themselves show this decision making and the ‘notifications’ that Roy Hall would be “headed that way” ( the next day )…
————————————————
06/29/2013 18:47:16 ( 6:47:16 PM )
From: DOWNEY ( Jim Downey, Russ Shumate’s boss )
To: NT
Detail: HAVE ROY HALL AND HOWARD CARLON REPORT TO FIRE TOMORROW
8 minutes later… Roy Hall responds but apparently still isn’t sure if he can make it to Yarnell and it might be ‘Joki’ ( Glen Joki ) instead…
06/29/2013 18:55:11 ( 6:55:11 PM )
From: HALL ( Roy Hall )
To: NT
GO AHEAD AND CALL CARLSON – WILL LET YOU KNOW IF MYSELF OR JOKI GOING
Then… 3 minutes later… we see ADC informing IC Russ Shumate that Roy Hall, Paul Musser and Howard Carlson are ‘Heading that way’ ( to Yarnell, tomorrow )…
06/29/2013 18:58:06 ( 6:58:06 PM )
From: NT
To: IC ( Russ Shumate )
Detail: ADVISED OF HALL, MUSSER, AND CARLSON HEADING THAT WAY
————————————————
There is also no question that when Russ Shumate placed his orders for those 2 ( TWO ) ‘Structure Protection SPECIALISTS’ with an ‘Immediate need’… his INTENTION was for them to be there developing a ‘structure protection plan’ for the INCOMING TYPE 2 TEAM.
He initiated those 2 ‘Structure Protection SPECIALIST’ orders at
22:09:39 ( 10:09:39 PM )… a full 3 ( THREE ) HOURS AFTER he KNEW the entire rodeo was going to a ‘Type 2’ Incident for the next operational shift.
Once again… from the Dispatch Logs…
NOTICE: It was actually Russ Shumate himself who TOLD Arizona Dispatch he specifically wanted Gary Cordes and this other guy named Ralph Lucas ( who would turn out to be ‘out of state’ so they had to then get Darrell Willis )
————————————————————-
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:09:39
From: RUSS ( Yarnell ICT4 Russ Shumate )
To: NT ( Arizona Dispatch )
PRESCOTT ALARM ROOM: 2 STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALISTS TO REPORT TO MODDLE CREEK SCHOOL. . RALPH LUCAS, GARY CORDIS, OR. COME UP ON STATE REPEATER 1 OR STATE TAC 1 OR 2.
Time/Date: 06/29/2013 22:14:32
From: KM ( Arizona Dispatch )
To: PRESCOTT
Detail: ALARM ROOM: NEED 2 STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALISTS TO REPORT TO THE YARNELL HILL FIRE. IMMEDIATE NEED.
————————————————————-
So Russ Shumate INTENDED that ‘structure protection planning’ he wanted done to be for the TYPE 2 team that would be there the NEXT DAY… and not for the current ‘Type 4’ incident. All firefighting for that ‘shift’ had stopped long before he placed these 2 orders for these 2 ‘Structure Protection SPECIALISTS’ to assist the ‘Type 2’ team the next day.
On Saturday night… Russ Shumate was ONLY placing ‘Resource Orders’ on behalf of the incoming ‘Type 2’ team since he KNEW the ‘Type 4’ rodeo was over.
In Shumate’s OWN WORDS… in his ADOSH interview… he said the reason he ordered up the two “Structure Protection SPECIALISTS” at 10:09 PM Saturday night was not for himself… but so that they could (quote)…
“start creating a plan for the INCOMING organization ( the Type 2 team ) to run with the next day”.
He also stated ( about Cordes and Willis )…
“I had guys out reconning to create plans for the NEXT DAY’S SHIFT” ( The Type 2 Level Incident Team ).
From Russ Shumate’s ADOSH inteview…
—————————————————————-
A: When I got told there was a Roy Hall’s team coming in, I felt very comfortable as they have a lot of people with type 1 qualifications and they were gonna be heavy in ops and that’s where my bent is. My critical thing was the complexity analysis indicated a type 2 organization and that’s what I ordered and I was getting a type 2 organization,
I was comfortable with that.
I started looking at structure protection.
Uh, while I wasn’t taking any direct action on fuel modifications, I wasn’t putting dozer line in, I had guys out reconning to create plans for the next day’s shift that would involve all that. We were looking at roads to bulldoze and burn off and old fuel breaks uh, and they were just getting the lay of the land to find out where the houses were gonna be so they could start creating a plan for the incoming organization to run with the next day.
Q4: Okay, are these – are these guys you’re referring to uh, Cordes?
A: Cordes and Willis, yes.
Q4: Cordes and Willis?
A: That’s correct. Uh, I begged, borrowed, and stealed, and personally talked to folks – folks on the phone to get Darrell and Gary over there, uh, because we didn’t have folks showing as available to fill roles.
————————————————————-
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on February 18, 2016 at 3:55 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> One more time:
>>
>> ( snip -quotes from Red-Book )
>>
>> The answer is within the ‘acronym soup’ that you want to
>> just throw out and it’s likely an INTERPRETATION issue,
Right back atcha ( one more time )…
My point was that regardless of ANY ‘acronym soup’ or what LEVEL an incident was at or what LEVEL some guy was ‘ordering for’ ( tonight? or tomorrow’s level? )… that doesn’t change the specifics of what went down on Saturday night, June 29, 2013.
Let me try again… using even LESS WORDS this time ( to illustrate the point I am trying to make that you seem to be ‘missing’…
** Saturday night, June 29, 2013
1. IC to Dispatch: I need 2 people who are SPECIALISTS in structure protection.
2. Dispatch: Calling one, looking for another.
3. Gary Cordes to Dispatch: You rang?
4. Dispatch to Cordes: Need you down in Yarnell right away.
5. Cordes to Dispatch: I accept the work order. I’m on my way.
** 2 months later…
6. ADOSH to Cordes: I guess we can assume you are a specialist, since
that’s what original work order you ‘accepted’ was for?
7. Cordes to ADOSH: Nope. I’ve been known to do structure protection stuff when on Wildland assignments, but I’m not any kind of ‘specialist’.
Even shorter?
** Saturday night, June 29, 2013
1. I must have someone who is an X
2. We found (Y) who says he is an X… he’s on his way.
** 2 months later…
3. Investigator to (Y): We’re assuming you really ARE an X…yes?
4. No. I don’t consider myself an ‘X’ at all.
Forest and state Closes forces.
No fire order first 24 hours 10 to 300 Acers Sage brush.
IC3 or 4 call Forest dispatch can to get me a engine from the adjacent District and a couple of sawyers and 1o man hand crew. with crew Boss.
Dispatch calls and sends to fire no Fire orders it is all within the IA plan closes forces the only thing is a Fire name and number.
No order numbers on the first 24 hours unless the fire goes to a need for a Type 2 Team.
That I think is what RTS is Saying and I have done many times.
Got it that time. Thanks.
Putting it into the logic format helped a lot.
If a Forest has to go to Region then the Order number is punched.
The State was notifying PDC that the fire wanted resources. IA was still within the 24 Hours.
Once Prescott filled one then they went to a fire order on the search for a second and may have started with Prescott or Prescott got back to them before they Started calling letting the State know they had Willis available and the State had already started the Resource order which they gave to Fill Willis.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on February 18, 2016 at 8:10 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Got it that time. Thanks.
>>
>> Putting it into the logic format helped a lot.
I DO ‘get’ exactly what YOU are saying as well.
I really do.
But ( as if this needed to get any more complicated )… the Yarnell Hill Fire was NEVER a ‘Type 3’ Incident at all.
It was a ‘Type 4’ incident on Saturday… and Russ Shumate was an ICT4 that day ( not an ICT3 ).
When the fire ‘escaped’… Shumate got on the phone with his boss, Jim Downey. At first they wanted to just ‘bump’ from ‘Type 4’ to ‘Type 3’… and they even sent out an order for a Type 3 ICT for the next day ( Sunday, June 30, 2013 ).
That ICT3 for Sunday was going to be Paul Musser.
But almost as soon as Shumate and Downey sent out that ICT3 order for Musser… they realized that things had already gotten beyond the ‘Type 3’ stage and now the only point of discussion between them ( Downey and Shumate ) was whether to go with a throw-together Type 2 Short Team… or just call up the next bona-fide ready-to-go Arizona State Type 2 Team ( which was Bea Day’s full team… available and next in line on the roster ).
We all know the SAD part here.
They went with the ‘put-together Type 2 Short’ with all the retired guys… instead of just pushing the button on Bea Day’s team.
So when Jim Downey himself was asked in his ADOSH interview if Yarnell was ever a ‘Type 3’ incident… he said…
A = Jim Downey, Arizona Forestry ( ICT4 Russ Shumate’s boss )
——————————————————————
A: So, to answer your question, I think, if I understood you correctly – no. The Type 3 team, I don’t believe, was engaged. It went from a Type 4 to an extended attack and let’s order the Type 2 team.
——————————————————————
There is also no question, however, that when Russ Shumate asked specifically for those two “Structure Protection SPECIALISTS” on Saturday night… it was NOT to assist HIM with anything he was doing.
It was only to have them come up with a ‘stucture protection plan’ for what Shumate already knew ( by 10:09 PM ) would be a ‘Type 2’ Incident Management Team arriving in the morning.
Shumate knew by 6:47 PM Saturday that Roy Hall was coming and that the Incident WOULD be a ‘Type 2’… and any resource ordering he would now be doing all evening was for THAT ‘incoming’ Incident level team and not his own. All ‘firefighting’ on Shumate’s Level 4 rodeo had stopped and all Shumate was doinig from 6:47 PM on was ordering resources for the ‘next level’… the incoming ‘Type 2’ team.
In Shumate’s OWN WORDS… in his ADOSH interview… he said the reason he ordered up the two “Structure Protection SPECIALISTS” at 10:09 PM Saturday night was not for himself… but so that they could (quote)…
“start creating a plan for the INCOMING organization ( the Type 2 team ) to run with the next day”.
He also stated ( about Cordes and Willis )…
“I had guys out reconning to create plans for the NEXT DAY’S SHIFT” ( The Type 2 Level Incident Team ).
From Russ Shumate’s ADOSH inteview…
—————————————————————-
A: When I got told there was a Roy Hall’s team coming in, I felt very comfortable as they have a lot of people with type 1 qualifications and they were gonna be heavy in ops and that’s where my bent is. My critical thing was the complexity analysis indicated a type 2 organization and that’s what I ordered and I was getting a type 2 organization,
I was comfortable with that.
I started looking at structure protection.
Uh, while I wasn’t taking any direct action on fuel modifications, I wasn’t putting dozer line in, I had guys out reconning to create plans for the next day’s shift that would involve all that. We were looking at roads to bulldoze and burn off and old fuel breaks uh, and they were just getting the lay of the land to find out where the houses were gonna be so they could start creating a plan for the incoming organization to run with the next day.
Q4: Okay, are these – are these guys you’re referring to uh, Cordes?
A: Cordes and Willis, yes.
Q4: Cordes and Willis?
A: That’s correct. Uh, I begged, borrowed, and stealed, and personally talked to folks – folks on the phone to get Darrell and Gary over there, uh, because we didn’t have folks showing as available to fill roles.
————————————————————-
WTKTT
It is even more likely to use local forces under coop at the IC4 level
that is still totally IA recourses (closes forces concept)
Form overhead to Engines.
The IC3 is just the next step up and still with in the normal IA leadership. The fire got more complex once it broke lose on the 29th by early evening they knew they would need a higher and more complex team to handle the fire.
They should have got a plans and OPS person there early evening to assess and set up a day shift plan and needs.
That is basically where the transition broke down and the day shift had no written plan Maps or Division lines set up with Objectives for the day shift And things then started going to hell including who was in charge of what.
An IC3 would maybe have seen that and moved the fire forward to a type 2. How can I say this a IC4 is a IA supervisor at the level of crew boss or an Eng. foreman. Dependent on the ADC to help or local city and county resources. He is the plans, service, finance, logistics and operations all in one. Its a small fire with a few resources then boom if you have never been there you are in deep shit. I do not know how the state of Arizona works but there should have been some one above Shumate who should have stepped up and started the Ball rolling to get a Type 2 on the fire.
On a Forest or BLM the District FMO Initiates the call to Dispatch and starts the Type 2 team. Involving the Forest FMO or BLM DIST.
Fire supervisor.
I think Shumate got overwhelmed and the ADC and Fire director should have stepped in. Evidently Jim Downey when the Fire blew out on the 29th. They did not have an organization on the ground to handle what was happening by 1800 on the 29th. They were expecting a lot out of a IC4.
“Robert the Second says
FEBRUARY 17, 2016 AT 6:05 PM
Gotcha. So, in other words. those of us that go out as AD’s are allowing or making a ‘Failed System’ continue to work.
We often all did that as Hot Shots. Rather than allow the system or whatever to fail, we naturally adapted, adjusted, and overcame the shortcomings and made it work.
The overhead would say things like, “What’s the problem, it’s working or it worked didn’t it?
Yes, it worked because we made it work. So then, we were part of the problem and not part of the solution.
It’s extremely difficult to allow a system to fail when lives and property are at stake, just to prove a point.”
RTS said, “Gotcha. So, in other words. those of us that go out as AD’s are allowing or making a ‘Failed System’ continue to work.”
And I say, very good, except for one word, change “Failed” to “Failing”. Ok I get it, you and those like you are indispensable because lives and property are at stake. This is pretty new to me and I didn’t not start to put this together until a couple of days ago, so it is a new idea.
Before now, I thought what you were doing was pretty neat as in, “Just taking advantage of an opportunity to go to fires, do my best to make a difference, get paid to travel throughout the United States, see some good fire behavior, do my best to encourage management to ‘MANAGE fires to achieve resource benefit’ according to the Federal Fire Policy, instead of control certain fires,and make some extra money.”
That sounds like a win, win, win. Here is the problem I see. Tell me where I am wrong. And just because you are a buddy fucker, doesn’t mean you are a sodomite, you can have female buddies can’t you? See…that shows just how old school you really are.
1. The USFS (and other federal agencies) used ICS and the infusion of Round Hats (c) (what you call Blue Shirts) that came with it to gut their own fire program, through attribution starting in the mid 1980’s,
2. The USFS (and other federal agencies) have overseen the continued decimation of their fire programs for decades now that went into hyper drive with the mass exodus of experienced people in the 1990’s. You are doing wonderful things while you are out there like
3. Those people were never replaced for the most part and now the fire teams are only able to fill their positions because of all of the Round Hats (c) AND those experienced people from the 1980’s and since who are now retired and go out as AD.
4. So…your aren’t hurting anyone. You are making some money. You are providing an essential service. You are saving lives and property. You are making a broken system work. You do wonderful things while you are out there like “do my best to encourage management to ‘MANAGE fires to achieve resource benefit’ according to the Federal Fire Policy, instead of control certain fires” You get to travel. In effect…you and those like you are NOT sodomites….you are national heroes. Yes, you are!
5. Unfortunately, you were an old guy when you started down this road and that is why you are retired. You and those sodomites like you are an AGING workforce who are ENABLING a broken bankrupt system to keep putting band aids and apply pressure to a sucking chest wound. Good for you.
What happens in a few more years when you and the other old sodomites are too old to even get it up (the mountain anymore) no matter how much fun you are having and good you are doing?
What will happen to the house that we built…that has been turned into a house of cards? Who will be there to try to pick up the pieces of you and the other sodomites have broken?
6. I am not suggesting all of you sodomites abandon the good citizens of this country and the asshole managers and politicians who have charted a course that will fly the fucking airplane into a mountain in a few short years to simply make a point.
I am suggesting you do some forward thinking and consider what comes next. Who will you be helping then? Is there another generation that will retire to replace you working AD to continue to prop up a broken system? Fuck no, the house of cards is going to come tumbling down. Thanks to you and the other sodomites.
Whoops…I meant to say YOU and those who are sodomites. I know you are not a sodomite. But you are one of the guys who is helping to tear down the house I built for some extra AD money. But if you don’t do it, others will and I think you earned any waiver you desire for your service as a hotshot. I can’t even wrap my head around what you went through.
Here is some truth that I haven’t told here yet, yes, I have held some things back. I didn’t love the USFS, I loved the USFS FIRE program. I learned to hate the managers who ran the USFS itself just as much as I learned to hate corrupt BLM managers. In general managers, are bad people, even if they don’t start out as bad people, they system makes them bad if they want to get ahead. There are no rules for them, I never knew one who didn’t make them up to suit themselves as they went along. And if you caught them at it dead to rights, other managers covered for them and made it all better.
The biggest reason I left the USFS was because the fire program was a dead end for a technician. I didn’t want to be held back, held down and disrespected for the rest of my time in the workforce because I was a technician and not a professional. I wanted to be judged by my work and to be held back by my own abilities, and not my caste.
That is one thing about the BLM, the lines are really blurred between technicians and professionals and a competent tech can pass through those barriers.
The BLM is a better agency to work for than the USFS, in spite of all of their problems and there are many. Most employees don’t get involved in that stuff, I was just in a unique position to see behind the curtain.
So…if any USFS fire people out there are thinking about leaving the USFS and you have a chance to go to work for the BLM, you should jump on it.
And it sounds (and looks) like the USFS has done nothing but go downhill since I left in 1988.
FWIW… I’m with Gary on this one. All the way.
All these ‘retired’ guys might be able to ‘justify’ all this double/triple ‘dipping’ that they are doing in their own minds with “…but we’re IMPORTANT… and we’re HELPING!” mantras… but that doesn’t mean they aren’t actually ADDING to the problem… or at least not expediting a REAL ‘solution’.
Forgive the following ‘simple’ comparison… and I’m talking about ‘private’ companies below, but I think it’s a good analogy.
There is a REASON why the Airline Industry has decided that the pilots flying the ‘big jets’ MUST retire at a certain age.
It’s because many, many STUDIES have been done that PROVE reaction times and decision making skills deteroriate as one gets older.
The Airline Industry has simply set a ‘threshold’ age that, while it certainly might not apply to each and every individual pilot… it’s not even worth taking the chance that what the studies have shown even *might* end up the primary causal factor who a lot of people end up with empty chairs at their tables at Thanksgiving.
It doesn’t actually mean you have to leave the Airline industry, if that’s what you still really love to do and you don’t like sitting on beaches. It just means you can’t ‘fly the big ones’ anymore, or put innocent people’s lives ‘at risk’ on a daily basis anymore.
So what if the ‘Airline Industry’ sent out a ‘new memo’ saying…
“Hey… ya know that ‘mandatory requirement age’ thing… well… you STILL have to ‘officially’ retire and start drawing that pension and stuff… but if you put your name on a list and we really, really need someone to fly the ‘big ones’ when things get really ‘busy’… we’ll call you”.
And what if lots and lots of ‘retired’ airline pilots turned around and said “Sweet!… we get to be important again and help out and make lots of extra money and shit! Where do I sign up!”
The REAL PROBLEM is that Airlines like their profit margins right where they are and they aren’t REALLY interested in ‘solving the problem’… and as long as they have all these retired pilots willing to “:feel important” again ( and they are willing to look the other way on that pesky ‘why they had to retire in the first place’ little detail )… then ‘life is good’… and they don’t have to piss off either their shareholders ( by cutting back on profits and dividends ) or pissing off their ‘customers’ and either telling them they have to raise prices and/or telling them “Sorry… we just can’t fulfill all your travel needs this holiday… we don’t have enough qualified people to do it safely”.
At some point… the REAL problem HAS to be solved.
Prices/Profits have to be flexible enough to do things RIGHT… or not at all.
Just a little more information Please___________________
There is a lot more involved here than the surface we are talking about concerning Training, qualifications and experience. also the extreme past 10 years of drought and large fires.
The turn over of many 30 year veterans in the mid 90’s and early 2000.
as well as the continued retirements thru 2010.
FS and BLM were struggling to bring the work force Wild Land Fire Fighters up to training and Qualifications by 2010. You can get people trained but it takes time to get them the experience necessary to fill the Higher jobs on Teams.
It would take me a 2 hour lecture in a class room to help you understand the full impact of FF early retirement and the new influx of Foresters that do not want any thing to do with fire. This has put a huge strain on the ability to put Type 1 and 2 teams in the Field.
To fill some positions they have gone back to the Retiries as a filler till they can get the newbes trained up and qualified. Foresters and Engineers use to fill Plans Service and Finance.
There use to be # or 4 Finance people on every forest and some on districts they are gone the region provides the Finance and Personnel people.
The Engineering sections we use to have are a 3 of what they use to be.
They cant go to fires any more in the Service and Equipment Branches because they can hardly keep up with there on Forest jobs.
To add to the problem Fire is now trying to fill Plans Service and Finance with Fire people.
In the end there are a lot of positions that are very hard to fill and with the new ICS they are going to Cities, Counties, States and all Federal agencies.
Parks, wild life refuges, Reservations, BLM and FS. and Yes Retirees.
Another thing that is now happening that is slowing the Retiree ranks is the FERS retirement. You have to wait till 62 or 65 to get full retirement.
A combination of Federal and Social Security 50/50 along with investments.
The old Civil Service program is almost if not over for Federal Employees.
The Civil Service program did not rely on SS but was fully funded at retirement age 50.
Each one of the above problems has cause a Problem that is taking time to solve.
Gary— left when this whole thing was going ballistic by the late 90’s many Type 1 IC’s were gone with a few trainees to replace them. and down the line
There was a critical shortage of Overhead. This mess was not anticipated and all hell broke lose.
I could go on and on but that’s the general problems.
Bob,
This is a new thought process for me and I want to think about it some more and then hopefully I will be to express what I think I see a little better.
Not that it makes a difference, if I am right, the national fire program is in a death spiral that is going to take some serious effort (money and commitment) to correct, not .some random kibitzing from me.
And if I am right, may God help all of those who have built their lives in a very fragile and exposed WUI, because the government won’t be able to and the insurance companies will refuse to.
No actually Gary— I have seen and believe the NIFC training center has Identified the problem and for 10 years now addressing the situation. I think they are in a pretty good shape on Teams and dropping the AD’s back to additional needs rather than first needs.
WTKTT,
You hit all of the nails right on the head and as usual expressed it a lot better than me. You explained exactly why the federal government gives all of those who are qualified to be in the Public Safety retirement category the opportunity to retire at age 50 with 20 years of service. That is considered to be full retirement. I did 30 years, which is considered to be a long career in public safety.
What everyone who continues to work in fire line or command positions after retirement tells congressional staffers and the American people they either didn’t work hard enough during their career to justify there early retirement or they are putting not only themselves, but the public at great risk because we have burned out basket cases running the show just when things are really going to hell in a hand basket..
It is inconceivable (The Priess Bride) for something similar to happen with federal officers or agents.
“You are retiring today with lots of special benefits because all of the science available to us, tells us that you are no longer able to perform the duties and responsibilities of your job description on a minimally acceptable level of proficiency.
You are now a risk to yourself and the public you served, because we can’t depend on the fact that you will do the right thing at the right time. Please surrender all of your government issued guns and big gold badge and we will give you back this nice shiny new badge with the large words “Retired” that replaces your number. The very thing which distinguished you from all others and gave you your identity.”
Now that we have that out of the way. Here are you new guns and new badge and we will call you when the shit really hits the fan and exceeds the ability of those who are still employed to manage. Welcome back aboard”
Really? Seriously? You have to be kidding…right?
whoops in addition to all of the other typos which I can live with, I meant to say The PRINCESS Bride.
No problem. Have fun storming the castle ( you always do, right? ).
FF Retirement is also Mandatory at Age 55.
Many are not burned out at that point but are required to retire or for fit the FF Retirement. so while some may be burned out like I was many would like to Fight Fire longer Like RTS and others I know. Between 50 and 65 there are a lot of FF Jobs that they can do. Plans, Service, Supply and even Operations. Dispatch and Drivers.
Oh…and one more thing RTS, the vulgar phrase “buddy fucker, or buddy fucking” does NOT refer to a male sodomizing another male. It is a crude and socially unacceptable (in decent society) reference to taking advantage of a friend or someone you theoretically like and support through dishonorable actions. So…
Due to WTKTT’s good work on the resource orders for the 2 STPS that Shumate requested which is partially quoted here:
“06/29/2013 22:19:19 – ADC tells PDC to ‘page’ Ralph Lucas and Gary Cordes to fill the two ‘immediate need’ STPS orders.
06/29/2013 22:25:14 – PDC tells ADC that Ralph Lucas is ‘out of state’ and they are trying to get in touch with Gary Cordes. ADC says any alternate to Lucas will do… but that person MUST be a ‘Structure Protection Specialist’ (STPS) since that what the orders are for and that is what Russ Shumate requires.
06/29/2013 22:30:06 – Gary Cords responds, accepts one of the two STPS orders and says he is leaving right away for Yarnell.
06/29/2013 22:33:41 – ADC tells Russ Shumate Gary Cordes has accepted one of the STPS orders but they can’t find anyone local to fill the second STPS order.
06/29/2013 22:35:52 – Shumate tells ADC if they can’t find another local STPS to CHANGE the order for that second STPS to DIVS and fill immediately from local pool.
06/29/2013 22:42:19 – Darrell Willis accepts the new DIVS order, but would eventually say ( in his own Unit Log ) that the ‘order’ he ‘accepted’ was still for STPS and not DIVS. Willis says he’ll be down in Yarnell in 1 hour.”
And due to the quote provided by Cordes himself in his interview with ADOSH, which is quoted here by WTKTT as well:
“I’ve worked my way up to the level of division sup, um, over the years.”
And due to the fact that according to Arizona Forestry’s requirements for minimum qualifications for the STPS position, chiefly that in order to begin the process of qualification as a STPS one must be a current full-qualified DIVS, since Cordes did not say he was a red-carded STPS (and both his resource order and qualification record is missing from the files); I’m going to ‘go there’ with 1 point, which if I am incorrect and provided with evidence of proof, I’ll be more than happy to post a retraction.
One more conclusion before I state my point. A STPS must be considered a higher level in Operations if one must be a qualified DIVS before one is able to start the process of gaining the STPS qualification. (initiate a task book)
My point is this: Cordes was NOT STPS qualified and accepted an assignment at the STPS level anyway. Again, show me evidence that I’m wrong and I’ll be happy to retract.
Woodsman
Same offer of retraction if evidence is provided otherwise:
Central Yavapai Fire District Battalion Chief Gary Cordes was not qualified in the position he accepted and operated as at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Battalion Chief.
Woodsman
There is still no definite proof that Gary Cordes was a fully qualified ‘DIVS’ on June 30, 2013… ( or STPS )… but almost a year later ( to the day )… he seems to have definitely had the specific ‘DIVS’ Wildland certification.
Gary Cordes shows up as an official ‘Division Supervisor’ for ‘DIV V’ on the Arizona Oak Creek fire, on July 2, 2014.
Gary Cordes was ‘DIV V’… and Roy Hall was his ‘Field OPS’.
Cordes had two 20-man teams working for him in his Division.
A type 2 strike team out of Ft. Grant, and the Type 1 IHC IRONWOOD HOTSHOTS. He also had a Type 6 (Brush) engine with a crew of 6, a chipper/dump truck, a Dozer, and some other individuals.
The IAP ( Incident Action Plan ) for the Oak Fire for July 2, 2014…
NIFC WEBSITE – The Oak Fire
Incident Action Plan – Day Operational Period – July 2, 2014
http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specific_data/southwest/GACC_Incidents/2014/2014_Oak/DOCS/OakFire_IAP_20140702.pdf
From that document
———————————————————–
Oak Fire – AZ-CNF-000670/P3H56L ( 0305 )
Incident Action Plan – Day Operational Period – July 2, 2014
State of Arizona – Graham County
Organization Assignment List
1. Incident Name: Oak
2. Date: 07/01/2014
3. Time: 1500
4. Operational Period: 07/02/2014 – Day 0630-2000
5. Incident Commander and Staff:
Incident Commander: Scott Glaspie
Safety Officer: John McGee 7/8 Mike Cachero (T) 7/7
Information Officer: Anna Iwaki (t)
Information Officer: Heidi Schewell / Brenda Jensen
6. Agency Representative
Agency Rep: Kent Ellett
Resource Advisors: Anne Casey, James Heitholt
7. Planning Section
Plan Section Chief: Doug Hardy
Resources Unit: Jay Yancick
SOPL: Justin Kaber
Fire Behavior Analyst: Ryan Whiteaker
LTAN(T): Tara Umphries
GIS Specialist: Devin Quintana, Sharisse Fisher (T)
8. Logistics Section
Chief: Dean McAllister
Chief (I): Brian Hicks
Medical Unit: John Conger
Food Unit Leader: Earl Christian
Base Camp Manager: Al Kingsley
9. Operations Section
Operations Chief: Roy Hall
Planning Ops: ( blank )
a. Divisions / Groups
Division/Group T: Larry Bear 7/8
Division/Group U: Darrell Miller 7/8
Division/Group V: Gary Cordes
d. Air Operations Branch
Air Operations Branch Director ( AOBD ): Don Clark
Helibase Manager: T Randall, J Heesacker (T)
10. Finance Section
Cost Unit: Norene Norris
Personnel Recorder: Lisa Angle
* Division/Group Reports
* DIV U – Darrell Miller 7/8
The fire will continue to back its way down towards Rattlesnake Canyon. The best potential for the fire to make into Rattlesnake is backing down Corral Canyon. If it gets down into the bottom of Rattlesnake it has plenty of potential to continue to move to the west and north and threaten the cabins in the bottom of the canyon. Be aware that the fire could get seated in the canyon and gain alignment.
* DIV T – Larry Bear 7/8
The fire will continue to back down some of the east facing slopes up high and make some short uphill runs. Most of this will be up high on the slopes. This portion of the fire has been the earliest piece to show fire activity due to the sun hitting those slopes and warming them first.
DIV V – Gary Cordes
Backing fire with the upslope runs will be the activity here today. Once the fire backs down and lines up with wind and slope there will be short runs. This could be intense for a short duration.
DIV V – RESOURCE ASSIGNMENTS THIS OPERATIONAL PERIOD
Division/Group Supervisor: Gary Cordes
Operational Period: July 2, 2014 – 0630 – 2000 hours
Line Operations: Roy Hall
* Resources Assigned to DIV V…
T2 DOC Ft. Grant, Leader: L. Vizcaino, 20 persons
T6 E-533, Leader: Gustafson, 6 persons
Ironwood IHC, Leader: Brian Robinson, 20 persons
EMT also in DIV T, Leader: John Conger, 1 person
Chipper/Dump Truck
Dozer
SOF2, Leader: Steve Hensel, 1 person
READ, Leader: James Heitholt, 1 person
READ, Leader: Greg Sasek, 1 person
* DIV V – Control Operations this operational period…
– Continue to scout from division break south and assess values at risk.
– Prep possible check lines.
– Place adequate signage for Division familiarization.
– Working in High Creek.
* DIV V – Special Instructions this operational period…
– Utilize human repeaters within Division when necessary to maintain communications.
– Place flagging on all proposed lines to maintain clarity.
———————————————————–
Good find. We wouldn’t have to dig like this if they would’ve just provided complete information in the first place. Talk about shining a light on somebody when you’re trying to hide him. It does make it easier though – just look for the people with incomplete or missing paperwork and go from there.
Woodsman
The big thing on Qualifications would be the S courses he may have got those after Yarnell or had some but not all. He may have been Division but not had the S course for Structure Protection or vise versa. He had to be both Qualified DIVS and Training (S courses) to be a SPLD.
One thing we are missing here is Structure Protection is not a Line building organization. according to the description they a seperiate group used only to protect structures. and answer only to the IC.
So the two may really have been functioning as DIVS with absolutely no DIV sections and intermixing the two positions in another cluster Fuck.
You have 2 DIV A and B and then some fucking structure mess that overlapped the DIVISIONS and put to many chiefs in charge of the same piece of area. Except for poor old DIVS A. Cordes was as well operating as a OPS from the information we have of him directing the two Divisions.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
February 18, 2016 at 8:56 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> One thing we are missing here is Structure
>> Protection is not a Line building organization.
>> according to the description they a seperiate
>> group used only to protect structures. and
>> answer only to the IC.
Exactly.
So the minute Gary Cordes met the Bulldozer on Sunday morning and took him out to show him where he ( Cordes ) wanted him to ‘build line’… he was obviously considering himself more a DIVS and/or OPS than just STPS or SPGS.
Ditto later in the day when he, alone, decided to have the dozer push out the ‘Cutover Trail’ and he assigned that Type 1 IHC Crew ( Blue Ridge ) that had been sitting around doing nothing all day to ‘improve’ that dozer push.
Cordes was in the ‘line building’ business all day that day.
The Dozer was working where HE wanted it to… doing what HE was telling it to do. HEQB Cory Ball was just following Cordes’ instructions as well.
So the title of ‘SPGS1′ for Cordes on Sunday has always been inaccurate. He was ACTING ( all day ) like a DIVS and/or OPS,
and those around him were also responding to him as if he held one of those titles.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So the two may really have been functioning
>> as DIVS with absolutely no DIV sections and
>> intermixing the two positions in another cluster Fuck.
I think that was the case.
Moreso on Cordes’ part than Willis’… but even Willis has referred to his involvement with the Yarnell Hill Fire more as a DIVS ( with his own geographic boundaries ) than an SPGS.( floating around from house to house ).
And maybe THIS ‘cluster Fuck within the whole cluster Fuck’ is the reason Cordes’ actual ‘Resource Order’ ( defining his ACTUAL position in the chain of command ) ended up MISSING when Arizona Forestry had to supply ALL ‘Resource Orders’ for Yarnell to the investigators.
Gary Cordes was obviously VERY much ‘involved’ in the circumstances and details of the tragedy itself.
1. Gary Cordes ( whatever he thought he was ) is the one who actually established the Boulder Springs Ranch as the ( in his own words ) “bomb proof Safety Zone” for resources on the south end of the fire.
2. Gary Cordes ( whatever he thought he was ) is the one who SHOWED this ‘Safety Zone’ to an incoming Type 1 IHCS and briefed him on it using BLM Dean Fernandez’s iPad.
3. Gary Cordes ( whatever he thought he was ) is the one who then officially ASSIGNED this ‘Boulder Springs Ranch Safety Zone’ to the incoming Type 1 IHCS ( who would become DIVSA at 10:30 AM ) and his Hotshot Crew as their ‘predetermined Safety Zone’.
4. Gary Cordes ( whatever he thought he was ) was the one in total control of the Dozer on the south end of the fire and ALL ‘line-building’ that was taking place was taking according to HIS wishes and HIS direction there on the south end of the fire… all day long.
5. Gary Cordes ( whatever he thought he was ) was the single individual who set ALL of the ‘trigger points’ for both resource evacuations and citizen evacuations there on the geographic south end of the fire.
6. Gary Cordes ( whatever he thought he was ) is the one who then chose WHEN the official ‘evacuations’ of both resources and citizens should start happening there in Yarnell.
7. Gary Cordes ( whatever he thought he was ) was then the one who specifically told OPS to tell Air Attack to start “dropping at will” on the south end of the fire. He *might* have actually just told Air Attack that himself ( directly ) except for the fact that he had totally lost his ability to TRANSMIT on the Air-To-Ground channel because the button on his BK handheld crapped out.
8. Gary Cords ( whatever he thought he was ) was the single individual who ordered HEQB Cory Ball to “scout out dozer line to protect Glen Ilah” even AFTER the fire had “exceeded his expectations” and blown through HIS ‘trigger points’.
9. Gary Cordes ( whatever he thought he was ) ended up being the ONLY one in all of fire command who flat-out admitted to investigators that he, personally, never had ANY doubts that Granite Mountain had ‘left the safe black’ and were hiking to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
10. Gary Cordes ( whatever he thought he was ) was also the one who then specifically told his TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel to send some ‘Engines’ over to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure Granite Mountain got “out of there safely”.
See what I mean?
This Gary Cordes guy was CONNECTED to this tragedy.
So HOW he was ‘ordered up’ on Saturday night, WHAT his ACTUAL ‘Resource Order’ said he was hired to be ( STPS? SPGS? DIVS? OPS? ) might have been something Arizona Forestry decided to obfuscate.
They may have decided for someone who actually did ALL of those things above… and had all that ‘command level’ interaction with ‘Granite Mountain’… it wouldn’t look good for them ( Arizona Forestry ) if the investigators were able to discover that this guy who might have just been hired as a “Structure Protection Specialist” on Saturday night ended up ACTING as a DIVS or OPS… and directing operations on the very geographic section of the fire where 19 men ended up burning to death.
Followup…
Obviously the FIRST thing that started happening within Arizona Forestry the moment the bodies were discovered were phone calls to the lawyers.
Probably within HOURS… they had lawyers looking at the ‘liability’ issues and doing their OWN little bit of ‘investigating’ ( as fast as possible ) to see where Arizona Forestry might have their asses hanging out on this.
And that ‘lightning round’ of ‘liability’ questions/answers that the lawyers were probably trying to answer as fast as possible might have started to do something like this…
————————————-
Q: Who even decided that BSR ranch thing was ANY kind of ‘Safety Zone’ for anyone?
A: Gary Cordes.
Q: Who even told Granite Mountain this BSR ranch thing was their ‘predetermined Safety Zone’?
A: Gary Cordes.
Q: Who set all the evacuation trigger points that ended up getting blown out down there near Yarnell?
A: Gary Cordes.
Q: Who actually “pulled the trigger” down there on the south side of the fire and eventually ordered ALL the evacuations… both fire personnel AND citizens?
A: Gary Cordes.
Q: Who was it that decided Air Support should just start “dropping at will” down there near Yarnell?
A: Gary Cordes.
Q: Did anyone actually KNOW ( for sure ) that Granite Mountain had left the ‘safe black’ and were hiking to that BSR ranch thing?
A: Gary Cordes.
Q: Did ANYONE do ANYTHING to try and make sure that Granite Mountain got all the way back that Ranch House Restaurant where ALL other resources were told to evacuate to and ‘be safe’?
A: Gary Cordes.
Q: Who in the bloody hell was really ‘running the show’ down there on that SOUTH end of the fire that day?
A: Gary Cordes.
——————————————————
And when the lawyers finished that initial Q/A ‘lightning round’… and the same damn name kept cropping up… they probably then decided they better find out exactly what this guy’s real POSITION / STATUS was in the ‘chain of command’…
…and all they found was him fulfilling an order from the night before ( Saturday ) coming from the previous ICT4 ( Shumate ) for just a “Structure Protection Specialist”.
Holy shit ( said the lawyers ).
And then you ask why did Marquez feel like he was
shoved to the side in DIV Z ?????
You are right Cordes was taking over every thing in a fairly open unsupervised organization that the IC had told Marquez he was in charge of DIV Z.
Which should have run from the Deviding point with DIV A to Peoples Valley. In other words he was in Charge of the line construction. Cordes and Willis were in charge of the Structure Protection Groups
(Engines)
So in real time Marquez should have had control of the Tractor and BR Crew along with any other Engine crews building Line.
Or you had another DIVS over the other 2 DIVS and
That is a climate for disaster as it happened in real time.
Crodes had put himself in charge of DIV A & Z and every thing but Willis. Confusion Rains and you ask how did all those people almost get trapped in his circle of control? Because no body knew who was in charge at any given time.
What else can I say The entire Overhead let their chain of supervision and control get totally out of
Pandoras Box.
The only evidence ( in the existing public record, anyway ) that DIVSZ Rance Marquez ever even had any ‘contact’ or ‘conversations’ with Gary Cordes was when Marquez was headed out to the dozer line around NOON, after having just arrived in Yarnell and told by OPS2 Paul Musser that he was now ‘Division Z’.
On his way out to the dozer line… Marquez stopped and simply asked Cordes for ‘directions’ on how to get out there.
There is no evidence that even during that quick-stop for directions out to the Sesame Clearing area… that Marquez and Cordes ever even talked about the fire itself.
But hasn’t this conversation thread also already proved that as an ‘SPGS’ ( Group Supervisor )… Cordes could have ( technically ) not paid any attention to Marquez, even if Marquez HAD tried to tell him what to do?
Didn’t we just establish that ‘Groups float around’, and they aren’t attached to any particular geographic ‘Division’?
Either way… the situation on the south side was still as follows…
1. Even though Yarnell and Glen Ilah were IN his ‘Division’… Rance Marquez didn’t take any ‘ownership’ of what was going on there. He, himself, seemed content to just let SPGS1 Gary Cordes ‘run the show’ down there.
2. SPGS1 Gary Cordes seems to have made no attempt to ever consult with DIVSZ Rance Marquez about anything. He was just ‘running his own show’ down there in Yarnell.
WTKTT
Some what the SPGS or what ever is directly under the IC. and works with the DIVS. If a DIVS is adjacent to the area of Structures. They are not Under the OPS per say. unless assigned there.
But they are only responsible for Structure protection and even evacuation of the Citizens.
Structure Protection is not a line assignment.
You check out the ability to save structures have Structure Engine’s positioned and available for saving structures if and when the fire threatens them.
Not really a line building type crews.
But Cordes was acting more like a DIVS than a SPGS . With no lines identified as a DIV and no organizational boundaries.
Which also means he could as well be sued by the Home owners who were not evacuated until the last minuet and who also lost homes.
He put himself in charge and did not fulfill his duties and responsibilities.
Bob said:
“You are right Cordes was taking over every thing in a fairly open unsupervised organization that the IC had told Marquez he was in charge of DIV Z.”
Yep. Because that’s what municipal/structural Battalion Chiefs do. I can’t scream it any louder.
Woodsman
I guess I am just used to dynamic, fast-paced Type 3 fires.
All the things you attribute to Gary Cordes being responsible for and leading to the GMHS fatalities is drama and fantasy in my view.
It is the ultimate responsibility of every Resource Boss and/or Supervisor to ensure the safety and welfare of those they supervise, i.e. Steed and Marsh.
Those are the ones responsible for the GMHS fatalities and NOT Gary Cordes.
Exactly
RTS.
Open your mind to the possibility, however small or large. that there are more contributing factors than simply a Superintendent and/or Crew Boss singlehandedly, with no outside forces at all, killed their entire crew.
If the decisions made by the leadership of GMIHC were influenced by anyone or anything at all, I would like to have a full understanding of that. I believe the wildland fire community should have this knowledge to improve the way we do business. I also believe everyone who loved or cared about GMIHC should know.
Woodsman
Those answers are within the ‘Human Factors Influenced the 30 June 2013 YH Fire Fatalities’ PowerPoint presentation I sent you.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on February 18, 2016 at 3:33 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> All the things you attribute to Gary Cordes
>> being responsible for and leading to
>> the GMHS fatalities is drama and
>> fantasy in my view.
You are making a ‘connection’ I did not make above.
Nowhere did I say ANY of those things that Gary Cordes really WAS ‘responsible’ for ( no fantasy or drama there… just a list ) led DIRECTLY to 19 other men dying horrible deaths down on his end of the fire where he was playing DIVS all day.
I was talking about WHY Arizona Forestry ( and/or their lawyers looking for ‘liability’ issues ) just *might* have felt a need to ‘disappear’ this guy’s actual ‘Resource Order’ for Yarnell.
At the time when Arizona Forestry was REQUIRED to hand over ALL of the ‘Resource Orders’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire… no one was fully sure what actually happened.
But the more they looked at it… the more this ‘Gary Cordes’ guy’s name kept being the answer to ‘questions’ like the ones I typed above.
Do YOU have an explanation for why one of the most important and active persons in ‘fire command’ that day isn’t even showing a ‘Resource Order’ in the official documentation… so we really CAN see what he was actually supposed to be doing ( or NOT doing ) on that fire that day?
I’ve already weighed in on that.
IMHO… it is ‘not credible’ to think that the Arizona Forestry Dispatch Center employees working on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013 simply FORGOT to create this guy’s resource order… especially when we can SEE them ‘hiring’ him right in the Dispatch Logs for the Incident itself.
What’s YOUR take on that?
You make a good case for the missing records and documents. I have seen it before on other fires and/or investigations.
I have said this before, I guess I just don’t want to believe that Gary Cordes was responsible for any of it.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on February 18, 2016 at 8:08 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You make a good case for the
>> missing records and documents.
>> I have seen it before on other
>> fires and/or investigations.
Which ones?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I have said this before, I guess I just
>> don’t want to believe that Gary
>> Cordes was responsible for any of it.
Keyword: “responsible”.
In this case… and with regards to any existing ‘Resource Records’ possibly ‘vanishing’… it’s likely he did NOT have ‘anything to do with it’ and wasn’t even aware it ( might ) have happened.
It remains ‘curious’ that NEITHER set of ‘investigators’ inquired about this… or even bothered to VERIFY exactly what his ‘Resource Order’ said… or why it might have been ‘missing’ from where it was supposed to be…
And it also remains ‘curious’ that there seem to be some pretty specific ‘omissions’ in Gary Cordes’ own ( handwritten ) Unit Log… such as…
1. ANY mention that he was the SOLE author of the late afternoon “push dozer line on the Cutover Trail and connect to Shrine Road” project that involved both Blue Ridge and Esquibel’s entire Task Force. MANY other people detailed this high-resource-utilization plan in their logs. Cordes makes NO mention of it at all.
2. ANY mention that even after his ‘trigger’ points were all blown… he was still telling Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to “scout dozer line to protect Glen Ilah” Ball specifically mentions this in HIS Unit Log. Cordes does not.
3. ANY mention that he instructed TLFD(t) Esquibel to specifically send ‘Engines’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch to “make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely”. Tyson Esquibel thought this was an ‘important’ directive coming from Cordes and he specifically mentions it in HIS Unit Log. Cordes makes NO mention of this ‘directive’.
All that being said…
With regards to any ‘missing’ Resource Order… it could have had nothing to do with Cordes and it could have just been that the lawyers were already advising Arizona Forestry about ‘potential liabilities’ thought it “might be best for all concerned” if that particular person’s ‘Resource Order’ just sort of ‘evaporated’.
Regardless of whether there really IS / WAS any actual ‘liability’ there… it’s all about ‘perception’.
If they ( Arizona Forestry ) just *thought* that might be a place where their “assess were hanging out”… then a few quick clicks on the Resource Order database for Yarnell BEFORE printing it out for the investigators would take care of that ‘most ricky tick’.
I will still bet you a dollar to a donut that even if a button was pressed… that Gary Cordes still has ‘hardcopy’ of his own Resource Order.
How else would he have been able to get paid?
Do you think he just ended up working in Yarnell for FREE?
I (truly) doubt it.
Regarding Cordes’ missing Resource Order, here are times we go to fires before having one ‘in hand.’ However, you will need it to check-in at the Incident and certainly to be paid.
There are numerous fires, fatality and otherwise, where I know of and/or heard of missing and/or falsified, fabricated documents.
Dude Fire
Cerro Grande (Los Alamos) Fire
Outlet Fire
Clark Peak Fire (where the Type I IMT completely fabricated a Fire Progression Map and Narrative to fit their story line.
Esperanza Fire
30-Mile Fire
Cramer Fire
I’m sure there are others. These are just ones that readily come to mind
I think your Qualification arguments fail because these were all TYPE 3 INCIDENTS at the time and the qualification criteria are much less for a Type 3 Incident according to The INTERAGENCY STANDARDS FOR FIRE AND AVIATION 2013, commonly referred to as ‘THE RED BOOK.”
In Chapter 8, Interagency Coordination and Cooperation, on page 10 discusses “Qualifications/Minimum Requirements.”
“As per the NWCG memorandum Qualification Standards During Initial
Action, March 22, 2004 and the PMS 310-1”
“Wildland Fire Qualification System Guide”
“The 310-1 qualification/certification standards are mandatory only for national mobilization of wildland fire fighting resources.”
“During initial action, all agencies (federal, state, local and tribal) accept
each other’s standards.”
“Once jurisdiction is clearly established, then the standards of the Agency(s) with jurisdiction prevail.”
This allowed the AZ State Type 3 IMT to request and fill positions need on June 30, 2013, when the YH Fire was still in “initial action.”.
https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/redbook/2013/Chapter11.pdf
In Chapter 11 – Incident Management and Response on page 5 is the criteria for a TYPE 3 INCIDENT COMMAND.
“The NWCG has not established Command and General Staff positions at the Type 3 complexity level, with the exception of Incident Commander Type 3 (ICT3). However, a Type 3 incident may .”
“A TYPE 3 INCIDENT MAY REQUIRE ADDITIONAL FUNCTIONAL POSITIONS TO ASSIST THE IC.”
So, a Structure Group Supervisor and/or a Structure Protection Specialist was on order that day because the Type 3 IC ‘required additional functional positions to assist the Incident Commander’ and he filled it (and/or attempted to fill it) with Gary Cordes, a MINIMALLY QUALIFIED SINGLE RESOURCE BOSS.
A completely legitimate and permissible IQCS request and fill.
DIVISION SUPERVISOR
“DIVISION (Type 3 Functional Responsibility) SINGLE RESOURCE BOSS Minimum Qualification Standards) – Operational qualification must be commensurate with resources assigned (i.e., more than one resource assigned requires a higher level of qualification).”
In other words, on a Type 3 Incident, a Division Supervisor can be filled with a QUALIFIED SINGLE RESOURCE BOSS, e.g. Crew Boss, Engine Boss, Dozer Boss, Tractor Plow Boss, Felling Boss, and/or Firing Boss.
OPERATIONS can be filled with a Task Force Leader (TFLD).
Gary Cordes was certainly minimally qualified as a Single Resource Boss on these fires and the YH Fire on June 30, 2013.
RTS,
I’m picking up what you’re putting down and understand where you are coming from. I was referring to Arizona’s Standard Requirements – not National. I’m not convinced yet but appreciate your input.
If you just wanted to guess, why do you think that Cordes resource order AND qualifications records are missing?
Thanks
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Did you read this part? Nothing to do with NATIONAL here if I’m reading this right.
“In Chapter 8, Interagency Coordination and Cooperation, on page 10 discusses “Qualifications/Minimum Requirements.”
“As per the NWCG memorandum Qualification Standards During Initial Action, March 22, 2004 and the PMS 310-1″
“Wildland Fire Qualification System Guide”
“The 310-1 qualification/certification standards are mandatory only for national mobilization of wildland fire fighting resources.”
“During initial action, all agencies (federal, state, local and tribal) accept each other’s standards.”
“Once jurisdiction is clearly established, then the standards of the Agency(s) with jurisdiction prevail.”
This allowed the AZ State Type 3 IMT to request and fill positions need on June 30, 2013, when the YH Fire was still in “initial action.”
I think Cordes is good based on this
RTS,
Yes, state fire not national. I’m going off of Arizona’s own standards. I did read (and am continuing to do so) your link. Under Incident complexity Type 3, chapter 11 page 5, at the bottom of this section it states this:
“Type3
experience that is input into the Incident Qualification and Certification System (IQCS) will not exceed an individual’s current
Incident Qualification
19
Card.”
“will not exceed an individual’s current qualifications card”
Woodsman
And your point here is what?
RTS,
I’ve reread the ‘redbook’ chapters 8 and 11. I believe you may be right and I am wrong.
I have a question about this part:
“During initial action, all agencies (federal, state, local and tribal) accept each other’s standards”
What was Arizona Forestry’s Standard? I can’t find it. I agree with you on the ‘type 3 incident at the time of ordering.’ allowing a qualified TFLD to fill up to operations at that complexity level.
Based on your research and what I’m reading as well,AND ASSUMING THAT CORDES WAS A QUALIFIED TFLD OR HIGHER – NOT TRAINEE. I retract my statement that Cordes filled a position he was not qualified for at Yarnell Hill. BUT……I can’t say with 100% confidence whether you are correct and I am correct – because of the fact that Cordes records are missing – Qualifications AND Resource order.
A general question that I have is: Why are his records missing? That would go a long way to clear up the questions.
Woodsman
I am moving this up to the top so it’s not lost in the weeds.
This was a January 11, 2016 email from a WFF colleague regarding a YH Fire Staff Ride. And yes, to your chagrin this unnamed WFF colleague will remain unnamed, so get over it. You have ‘the right to ask’ and I have the right to refuse.
This is due to a Court-imposed mandate to develop a YH Fire Staff Ride based on one of the Court settlements. There are many that feel this is too early to do a Staff Ride, as emotions ares still way too high.
“The Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Development Group would like to formally invite you to participate in our “Alpha” test Staff Ride. We are looking for tenured individuals that can provide a clear, unvarnished yet diverse perspective on our product. You have also been identified as being familiar with the concept and methodology of staff ride development.
“Understanding the challenges for travel within our varied agencies, please forward this email to the appropriate approving personnel as necessary. The Interagency collaboration for a Wildland Fire educational product of this magnitude comes with no small level of appreciation.
“We are limited to 12 participants as an effective size with this first group. As a result, we are only requesting your availability and willingness to participate at this point.”
This Group is meeting in Precott, AZ and will be traveling to Yarnell and the YH Fire this week. Interestingly, the initial YHF Staff Ride Development Group included WFF types from all over the United States.
And guess who was NOT invited, besides me? But of course, Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hot Shots! Really? The Crew that was right there, engaged in face-to-face and radio conversations with the GMHS overhead, and much more and they are NOT invited? Now WTF is up with that?
The email stated: “We are looking for tenured individuals that can provide a CLEAR, UNVARNISHED YET DIVERSE PERSPECTIVE ON OUR PRODUCT.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
This appears to be some type of Orwellian doublespeak looking for only those that will speak the Party Line, follow only what the SAIR and ADOSH Reports states, and not rock the boat with infernal things like the TRUTH and what they really saw and heard and experienced.
OMG, the truth – you mean we aren’t allowed to talk about the truth and what happened and/or may have happened?
A little history and insight on Staff Rides with several links and good information in each one from the Leadership.gov Toolbox. The links include: ‘About Staff Rides, Facilitator Tips, Staff Ride References, the Library, and Local Staff Ride Archive.’
“Staff rides were developed by the Prussian Army in the early nineteenth century and have been used by the militaries in many countries since then. In the 1970’s the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps turned to staff rides with great enthusiasm and now they are considered essential instructional techniques in advanced military schools and in field units.”
“The intent of a staff ride is to put participants in the shoes of the decision makers on a historical incident in order to learn for the future. A staff ride should not be a tactical-fault finding exercise. Participants should be challenged to push past the basic question of “What happened?” and examine the deeper questions of leadership and decision-making: “What would I have done in this person’s place?” “How detailed should the guidance from a superior to a subordinate be?” “Can a senior leader make use of a competent but overzealous subordinate?” “What explains repeated organizational success or failure?” The study of leadership aspects in a staff ride transcend time and place.”
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/
—————————–
A staff ride should not be a tactical-fault finding exercise. Participants should be challenged to push past the basic question of “What happened?” and examine the deeper questions of leadership and decision-making: “What would I have done in this person’s place?”
—————————–
Gibberish.
How can anyone ‘push past’ anything and ask themselves “What would I have done in this person’s place”… WITHOUT first having a full understanding of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
And what happens when you DO ‘push past’ the ‘basic questions’ and you still have to end up admitting that a huge tactical error WAS made… and that’s why people died?
Cancel the staff ride?
Give everyone their money back and some discount coupons for ‘other’ staff rides?
It’s a lot like asking 12 sea captains ( sorry… that’s all the room we have in the boat ) to sail out out to where the Titanic sank… and have a ‘discussion’ about what you would have done if you were the ‘captain’…
…but making it ‘verboten’ to discuss the fact that the company that owned the ship was expecting it to break the North-Atlantic transit record… and that there weren’t enough (sober) lookouts on duty to see the Icebergs.
I was told that this YH Fire Staff Ride Development Group wanted to pattern the YH Fire Staff Ride after the Little Big Horn Battle Staff Ride.
http://alfinstitute.org/programs/staff-rides/little-bighorn
Interesting
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
February 18, 2016 at 9:58 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I was told that this YH Fire Staff Ride Development Group
>> wanted to pattern the YH Fire Staff Ride after the
>> Little Big Horn Battle Staff Ride.
>>
>> http://alfinstitute.org/programs/staff-rides/little-bighorn
Do you happen to know WHO is actually ON ( or IN ) this “Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Development Group”?
I’m assuming Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney is involved ( since he stood at the podium at the lawsuit settlement press conference and SAID he would be involved… and (quote) “Ready to answer ALL of the families questions” )…
…but any word on who ELSE is actually ‘involved’ in this “planning and development” of this “Yarnell Hill Staff Ride”?
Is this “Staff Ride” now going to be the place where Jeff Whitney makes good on his ‘promise’ to “answer ALL of the families questions”… or is that other lawsuit-settlement-mandated ‘event’ going to happen at some other time?
Jeff Whitney is involved.
As far as others, NOT at liberty to say.
Ah… the shell game again. Okay.
Probing to see where your ‘deepthroat’ threshold is on THIS one.
Is the PRIMARY organizational authority for this “Staff Ride” at the FEDERAL… or the STATE level?
In other words… even though the FEDS and NWCG basically ‘disavowed all ownership and interest’ in the Granite Mountain Hotshots when it came to investigation authority… are they NOW going to try and play some game called “These were our own” with regards to the ‘Staff Ride’ thing?
Question 2 ( probing, of course )…
Is anyone who was on the original SAIT investigation team also now involved in developing/planning/organizing the official ‘Staff Ride’?
This is NOT a shell game. Please get that through your thick head. You get your panties in such a bind whenever you don’t get exactly what YOU want.
Did you even read what I said about the YH Fire Staff Ride was a Court mandate based on one of the Court rulings for AZ State to put together a Staff Ride?
Question 1) – Therefore, this is at the State level. How could the Feds get their tentacles into this matter other than assistance?
Question 2) – I don’t know.
Regarding this statement: “even though the FEDS and NWCG basically ‘disavowed all ownership and interest’ in the Granite Mountain Hotshots when it came to investigation authority… are they NOW going to try and play some game called “These were our own” with regards to the ‘Staff Ride’ thing.”
Way off base here.
They did NOT disavow anything.
The GMHS was a Municipal Hot Shot Crew under the contract authority of AZ State Forestry. The FEDS had NO ‘authority’ NO ‘ownership’ of the GMHS or the YH Fire.
NWCG? http://www.nwcg.gov/
Their mission as the “National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) is to provide national leadership to develop, maintain, and communicate interagency standards, guidelines, qualifications, training, and other capabilities that enable interoperable operations among federal and non-federal entities.”
“Although NWCG standards are interagency by design, the decision to adopt and utilize them is made independently by the individual member entities and communicated through their respective directives systems.”
This includes the “International Association of Fire Chiefs” which would obviously include the Prescott FD and the “National Association of State Foresters” which obviously includes AZ State Forestry.
The NWCG may be involved under the training and “Ensure that all NWCG activities contribute to safe, effective, and coordinated national interagency wildland fire operations” prongs of their Strategic Priorities.
An interest, maybe, especially since there were Federal Resources on the YH Fire.
After all that, only those involved know the details.
Reply to Bob Powers post on February 17, 2016 at 9:37 am
>> Bob Powers asked…
>>
>> Was he ( Gary Cordes ) even a Qualified DIVS. And
>> understood his responsibilities. Very questionable?????????
All he ( Gary Cordes ) told ADOSH about that was…
“I’ve worked my way up to the level of division sup, um, over the years.”
…but there is no evidence anywhere in his ADOSH interview that he had to present his RED CARD to PROVE what he was saying.
In other interviews… the ADOSH investigators DID ask to see the person’s RED CAD, no matter what they were ‘telling’ them. They even made one person go out to their truck and GET it…. DURING the interview… so they could SEE it and what ‘qualifications’ were really on it.
Not so with Gary Cordes.
They (apparently) just ‘took his word for it’ and never checked his RED CARD at all.
Don’t forget… this is the same guy who thought the ‘Safety Zone’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch was 20-30 acres in size.
He was WILDLY wrong.
The cleared area of the Boulder Springs Ranch was only 3 to 3 1/2 acres.
Getting back to the mysterious MISSING ‘Resource Order’ for Gary Cordes…
It is simply ‘not credible’ to believe that someone at Arizona Dispatch simply ‘forgot’ to enter that “Structure Protection Specialist” ( STPS ) order for Gary Cordes into the computer ordering system on Saturday night.
The Dispatch Logs themselves show they were following the normal process of fulfilling an ‘immediate need’ order coming from their own Arizona Forestry IC ( Russ Shumate ) at the Yarnell Hill Fire… which already had an incident number in the computer and already had its own ‘Incident Log’ going for more than 24 hours ( since Friday night ).
Here again is the ‘short summary’ from the actual Yarnell Hill Fire Incident Dispatch Log(s)…
—————————————————————————————–
ADC = Arizona ( Statewide ) Dispatch Center
PDC = Prescott Dispatch Center
STPS = Structure Protection Specialist
06/29/2013 22:14:32 – ADC makes specific request to PDC for 2 ( TWO ) STPS needed ‘immediately’ as per IC Russ Shumate in Yarnell.
06/29/2013 22:15:33 – PDC tells ADC to ‘go direct’ for those 2 STPS.
06/29/2013 22:19:19 – ADC tells PDC to ‘page’ Ralph Lucas and Gary Cordes to fill the two ‘immediate need’ STPS orders.
06/29/2013 22:25:14 – PDC tells ADC that Ralph Lucas is ‘out of state’ and they are trying to get in touch with Gary Cordes. ADC says any alternate to Lucas will do… but that person MUST be a ‘Structure Protection Specialist’ (STPS) since that what the orders are for and that is what Russ Shumate requires.
06/29/2013 22:30:06 – Gary Cords responds, accepts one of the two STPS orders and says he is leaving right away for Yarnell.
06/29/2013 22:33:41 – ADC tells Russ Shumate Gary Cordes has accepted one of the STPS orders but they can’t find anyone local to fill the second STPS order.
06/29/2013 22:35:52 – Shumate tells ADC if they can’t find another local STPS to CHANGE the order for that second STPS to DIVS and fill immediately from local pool.
06/29/2013 22:42:19 – Darrell Willis accepts the new DIVS order, but would eventually say ( in his own Unit Log ) that the ‘order’ he ‘accepted’ was still for STPS and not DIVS. Willis says he’ll be down in Yarnell in 1 hour.
—————————————————————————————————–
Gary Cordes ‘accepted’ the first STPS order at 22:30:06 ( 10:30 PM ).
Darrell Willis ‘accepted’ the second STPS order at 22:42:19 ( 10:42 PM ).
Darrell Willis’ resource order shows up in the ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document.
Gary Cordes’ resource order does NOT.
As far as the ‘official’ resource documentation for the Yarnell Hill Fire goes, Gary Cordes was never even there.
There’s really only two possible explanations…
1. Someone at Arizona Dispatch just ‘forgot’ to create a resource order for that first STPS request from Shumate ( filled by Cordes ) but then the same exact person on duty remembered to create one for the second STPS request ( filled by Willis ).
2. Someone at Arizona Forestry decided to DELETE the ‘Resource Order’ for Gary Cordes right out of the computer sometime after the tragedy and before Arizona Forestry was required to supply the full resource order documentation to both the SAIT and ADOSH investigators.
My money is on ‘explanation’ number 2.
Even if it WAS a case of “oops… I forgot to do my JOB and create a resource order for that resource order I just fulfilled” on the part of some dispatcher working at ADC on Saturday night… why would they not then just create a ‘backfill’ order after-the-fact exactly they way they did for many other people who worked the Yarnell Hill Fire?
Even those ‘off the radar’ people that Roy Hall was ‘secretly’ calling on the phone on Sunday and asking them to come to Yarnell and help him eventually ended up with their own ‘backfill’ orders in the “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document, so they could actually get PAID for whatever ‘off-the radar’ work they DID do in Yarnell.
Example: Prescott National Forest ‘off-the-radar’ hires Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, etc.
But not so for SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
No original resource order. No backfill order later on. Zero. Zip. Nada.
So if it is, in fact, ‘door number 2’… then the real question is, of course, WHY would anyone do what basically amounts to an ILLEGAL alteration of official government/public documents?
What would they be trying to HIDE by doing that ( and committing a crime in the process )?
Could it be that Gary Cordes was never actually QUALIFIED to be filling that order on Saturday night… and given his level of involvement in the tragedy… they thought they better try and ‘cover that up’?
Once again… from Gary Cordes’ own mouth during his ADOSH interview…
—————————————————————————-
91 Q2: Hey Gary, I was just wondering you – I’m gonna presume that you have a
92 structure uh, group specialist or however you got that on your red track?
93
94 A: No, I’m not a structure group specialist.
—————————————————————————-
There may be a simple explanation for the order mess.
If Cordes was paged on the PDC other than ADC that might have caused the order process to fall apart here Is PDC Prescott ? That would be a local order and not in the ADC numbers.
Then they went back on their order and picked up Willis on the main order # which should have also had Cordes under the 2 STPS ordered from the Fire Cordes was filled locally and not noted on the ADC. It dose happen with no intent to hide some one.
If he was not a STGS and Possibly not a Certified DIVS Just adds to the Confusion.
He may have worked up to a DIVS but had he ever served as a DIVS or a Trainee.
Interesting.
Reply to Bob Powers post on February 17, 2016 at 3:18 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> There may be a simple explanation for the order mess.
>>
>> If Cordes was paged on the PDC other than ADC that might
>> have caused the order process to fall apart here Is PDC
>> Prescott ? That would be a local order and not in the
>> ADC numbers.
I left out the ‘From/To’ designators in that shorter summary of the Dispatch Logs… so here again is the FULL Arizona Dispatch Center entry for the moment when Gary Cordes was ‘accepting’ the first STPS ( Structure Protection Specialist ) order on Saturday night.
Again… this is the ARIZONA DISPATCH Log… and it shows Gary Cordes communicating directly with THEM and ‘accepting’ the STPS assignment…
—————————————————————–
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:30:06
From: GARY-PRC
To: KM
Detail:
Gary Cordes said: SOMEONE WAS TRYING TO PAGE ME?
KM said: YES, PLEASE RESPOND TO MODDLE CREEK SCHOOL IN
YARNELL FOR IMMEDIATE NEED. COME UP ON TAC 1 OR 2 OR
STATE REPEATER 1.
Gary Cordes said: COPY, I’LLL GET MY STUFF TOGETHER
AND HEAD OUT THERE.
————————————————————————
So if Cordes’ ‘acceptance’ of the assignment was directly with ‘Arizona Dispatch Center’… why would there not be a ‘Resource Order’ generated by ADC for this assignment to the same fire where everyone else who ended up working there also ended up with either an ‘original’ or a ‘back-filled’ resource order?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Then they went back on their order and picked up Willis on
>> the main order # which should have also had Cordes under
>> the 2 STPS ordered from the Fire Cordes was filled locally
>> and not noted on the ADC. It dose happen with no intent to
>> hide some one.
I don’t think you are reading the official Arizona Dispatch Center logs correctly.
They did not ‘back on their order’ with regards to Cordes.
That fulfillment of the FIRST of the TWO STPS positions that Russ Shumate was ‘ordering’ ( through Arizona Dispatch Center ) went normally.
1. Arizona Forestry IC for the Yarnell Hill Fire ( Shumate ) called Arizona Dispatch Center (ADC) and requested 2 ( TWO ) STPS for ‘immediate need’.
2. Since it was ‘immediate need’… ADC apparently checked with Prescott Dispatch to see if they had anyone that could fill the STPS orders… since Prescott was obviously ‘nearby’.
3. PDC did say that THEY were ‘paging’ Gary Cordes… but Cordes’ acceptance of the first STPS order took place directly with ADC… not PDC.
So where is the corresponding ADC ‘Resource Order’?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If he was not a STGS and Possibly not a Certified DIVS Just adds
>> to the Confusion. He may have worked up to a DIVS but had he
>> ever served as a DIVS or a Trainee. Interesting.
I have no idea what Cordes meant when he said…
“I’ve worked my way up to the level of division sup, um, over the years.”
I guess one can ASSUME he meant to say…
“Yes… I have a CURRENT, up-to-date RED-CARD rating as a DIVS for Wildland”
…but ADOSH (apparently) never verified that with him.
In the ADOSH interview Cordes said, “I’ve worked my way up to the level of division sup, um, over the years.”
Something strange (to me) with this answer/choice of words. If you are a DIVS, why not just say it? Does ‘worked my way up to it’ mean you are almost there, but not quite? I sure hope he was, and this, (in my opinion) would help explain the mystery of the missing resource order………..according to the Arizona State Forestry Division Standard Operational Guideline Section 800 Training/Qualifications Minimum Experience Requirements For Red Card Certification (pg 15); note the standards for STPS:
“STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALIST (STPS)
Required Training
RT-130 Annual Fireline Safety Refresher
Training Which Supports Development of Knowledge and Skills
Hazardous Materials First Responder
Building Construction
Fitness Rating
Moderate
Experience required before starting STPS Task Book
Fully qualified as DIVS or ICT3
STPS Task Book Completion Requirements
2 different evaluators from
2 separate Type 1 or 2 Incidents with wildland/urban interface
Emphasis mine:
Experience required before starting STPS Task Book
Fully qualified as DIVS or ICT3
According to Arizona Forestry guidelines for minimum qualifications, you MUST BE DIVS or ICT3 QUALIFIED BEFORE YOU CAN INITIATE YOUR STPS TASKBOOK.
Hmmm?
Woodsman
And not only is Cordes resource order missing his qualification records are missing as well.
By the way, if you want to understand the ‘Battalion Chief phenomenon’ that I speak of…just skim over Willis’ master record. Look carefully and you will see a prime example of pencil whipped quals. Starts on page 880 of 1103.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on February 17, 2016 at 8:51 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> In the ADOSH interview Cordes said, “I’ve worked my way
>> up to the level of division sup, um, over the years.”
>>
>> Something strange (to me) with this answer/choice of
>> words. If you are a DIVS, why not just say it? Does ‘worked
>> my way up to it’ mean you are almost there, but not quite?
Exactly. Strange choice of words when sitting in front of investigators who are directly ASKING you what your ACTUAL ‘Wildland’ qualifications really are.
Could it also be construed to mean?…
“I worked my way up to the same sorta ‘level’… but you do realize I’m primarily a structural FF, right?”
What remains interesting is exactly WHO first even thought to call Gary Cordes to fulfill one of Russ Shumate’s ‘immediate need’ requests for two STPS on Saturday night.
If you read the ADC Dispatch Logs carefully… it does NOT appear as if Russ Shumate cared WHO was fulfilling those STPS orders one way of the other… so long as they were STPS and could come RIGHT AWAY.
So someone ( who? ) at ADC came up with the two ‘first choices’ of ‘Gary Cordes’ and ‘Ralph Lucas’.
Did those two names ‘pop up’ on any kind of official ‘next to call’ list on the computer… or did some one person just think of those two names all on their own and then started trying to get in touch with them?
Gary Cordes really did ‘retire’ from Central Yavapai Fire District some seven months ago. A ‘flag ceremony’ marking his retirement was held at CYFD Station 53 on August 4, 2015.
The ‘Central Arizona Honor Guard’ was there, bagpipes and all, and ( of course ) they had to add it to their ‘Facebook page’ ( with photos )…
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.934650036598938.1073741831.828344357229507&type=3
From that (public) Facebook page and photo album…
——————————————————————————
Central Arizona Honor Guard – FACEBOOK
Flag ceremony for Training Chief Gary Cordes
In honor of his 26 years of service to the citizens of Central Yavapai Fire District our honor guard performed a flag ceremony for retiring Training Chief Gary Cordes. This flag was raised over Station 53 at 0800 on August 4th and recovered this morning, August 5th, at 0800. The flag flew for 24 hours as a symbol of respect for the last 26 years of Chief Cordes’ dedicated career full of 24 hour shifts. Thank you Chief Cordes, enjoy your retirement!
Photo’s courtesy of www (dot) livislens (dot) com
——————————————————————————–
Cordes BIO/resume’ has already been removed from the Central Yavapai Fire District website… but a quick visit over to the Internet WAYBACK archives has a complete copy of the Central Yavapai Fire District website as it WAS… back in April of 2013, complete with Gary Cordes’ ‘Battalion Chief’ staff BIO/resume’…
https://web.archive.org/web/20130407123909/http//www.centralyavapaifire.org/seniorstaff.html
From that 2013 CYFD ‘Senior Staff’ web page…
——————————————————
Gary Cordes, Training Chief, Wildland
Chief Cordes has worked in the fire service for 20 years, including his employment with Phoenix area fire departments, and joining Central Yavapai Fire District in 1989. He was promoted from captain to battalion chief in 2004 and is currently enrolled in the National Fire Academy’s Executive Fire Officer Program. He is also a graduate of Arizona State University’s Fire Service Institute, and holds a certification as a paramedic. In addition, he has been active in the District’s Off-Distict Wildland program. Chief Cordes makes his home in the Coyote Springs community.
————————————————————-
No mention of any ACTUAL ‘Wildland’ ratings at all.
All it says is that “he has been active in the District’s Off-Distict Wildland program”, whatever that means.
Whoops… bad link in the post above.
In order to see the Central Yavapai Fire District website as it WAS back on April of 2013… you have to use this link first…
https://web.archive.org/web/20130402065028/http://www.centralyavapaifire.org/
…then just click ‘About Us’ and then ‘Senior Staff’ to see Gary Cordes’ Battalion Chief BIO/resume’.
The Internet WAYBACK machine has the April, 2013 ‘Senior Staff’ page archived… but you have to go through the top level domain name to get to it.
WTKTT posted: “All it says is that “he has been active in the District’s Off-Dist[r]ict Wildland program”, whatever that means.”
It means what is says.
Central Yavapai Fire District is a Municipal/Structure/Wildland Fire District that deals with fires of all types on their District and Off-District Wildland fires as well, when the need arises.
Reading too much into it. It’s pretty simple.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It means what is says.
It doesn’t SAY anything at all.
Sooo… he was a cook at the fire camps?
A driver for the ICs?
What?
My “whatever that means” reference was pointing out that it means NOTHING with regards to what this guy’s actual QUALIFICATIONS / SKILLSETS might have been.
Here I am back in old school-
ICT2/OPS was always a qualified DIVS.
ICT3 could have been any thing Crew Boss to STLD. small Fire
ICT2 Went to the National Team Training course when I went it was in Marana AZ. Cant remember the 500 Number.
How things have changed in the old system the Fire Boss 2 had to be a qualified Division Boss and generally handled fires on his district generally the Dist. FMO and his assistant were at that level.
First responders first 24 hours.
WTKTT thanks for the info on the order.
They were asked ADC to go direct closes forces I think that original order went right to Prescott then when they went back they punched a new order for Willis still a guess but stranger things have happened. I have never seen a order that was eliminated for any reason.
ADC had the record of Cordes call to them but no reference to a order Number which indicates they did not assign one. And fill the order and give the person their order# none of that was on record during the Phone call between ADC and Cordes.
So that order went direct to Cordes from the fire even though it went thru ADC. ADC must have started all the Numbers after the Cordes call as they were filling a number of requests that night.
Just some other guess work trying to dig this out.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
February 17, 2016 at 10:12 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> ADC must have started all the Numbers after the
>> Cordes call as they were filling a number of
>> requests that night.
The actual Arizona Forestry ‘Dispatch Log’ and ‘Financial Code’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire were created at 1736 ( 5:36 PM ) on FRIDAY afternoon, June 28, 2013.
From the very TOP of the ADC Yarnell Dispatch Log…
—————————————————————-
WildCAD Incident Card – Arizona Dispatch Center:
Financial Code: AZ-A1S 2013-688
“YARNELL HILL” Wildfire 06/28/2013 17:36:00
Area AD223 (ADC-223)
—————————————————————-
All of the Arizona Dispatch Center Resource ordering logs for the Yarnell Hill Fire ( Air, Crew, Engine, Overhead, etc. ) show a ‘creation’ date/time of 1735 ( 5:35 PM ) on Friday, June 28, 2013.
That’s 1 minute BEFORE even the ‘Dispatch Logs’ were created that Friday afternoon.
The first ‘Overhead’ order was number O-1, created
at 1940 ( 7:40 PM ) on Friday, June 28, 2013 and it was for an ICT4 and the order was ‘filled’ right way with Arizona Forestry Duty Officer Russ Shumate.
So those ‘Arizona Forestry Resource Ordering logs’ were ‘up and running, and the ‘numbering’ had already started more than 24 hours before the Yarnell Fire would escape Russ Shumate’s Initial Attack… and he asked Arizona Dispatch to ‘order up’ those 2 ( TWO ) SPGS structure protection specialists on Saturday night.
So no… I don’t think you can blame anything on them ‘not having started the numbers’ yet ( on Saturday night ).
Arizona Dispatch had been entering ‘Resource Orders’ into the computer for more than 24 hours before they would be ‘ordering up’ Gary Cordes and Darrell Willis.
Arizona Dispatch was “well into the business” of entering resource orders for the Yarnell Hill Fire by the time Shumate asked them to ‘order up’ those 2 STPS on Saturday night.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I have never seen a order that was eliminated
>> for any reason.
It WOULD be highly unusual if that’s what happened, wouldn’t it?
It would ALSO be ‘highly illegal’, given what happened and the fact that there were at least TWO ‘official’ investigations depending on those ( public ) records to be both ‘complete’ and ‘accurate’ when they requested them from Arizona Forestry.
Reply to Woodsman post on February 17, 2016 at 8:51 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> In the ADOSH interview Cordes said, “I’ve worked my way
>> up to the level of division sup, um, over the years.”
>>
>> Something strange (to me) with this answer/choice of
>> words. If you are a DIVS, why not just say it? Does ‘worked
>> my way up to it’ mean you are almost there, but not quite?
Exactly. Strange choice of words when sitting in front of investigators who are directly ASKING you what your ACTUAL ‘Wildland’ qualifications really are.
Could it also be construed to mean?…
“I worked my way up to the same sorta ‘level’… but you do realize I’m primarily a structural FF, right?”
What remains interesting is exactly WHO first even thought to call Gary Cordes to fulfill one of Russ Shumate’s ‘immediate need’ requests for two STPS on Saturday night.
If you read the ADC Dispatch Logs carefully… it does NOT appear as if Russ Shumate cared WHO was fulfilling those STPS orders one way of the other… so long as they were STPS and could come RIGHT AWAY.
So someone ( who? ) at ADC came up with the two ‘first choices’ of ‘Gary Cordes’ and ‘Ralph Lucas’.
Did those two names ‘pop up’ on any kind of official ‘next to call’ list on the computer… or did some one person just think of those two names all on their own and then started trying to get in touch with them?
Gary Cordes really did ‘retire’ from Central Yavapai Fire District some
seven months ago. A ‘flag ceremony’ marking his retirement was held
at CYFD Station 53 on August 4, 2015.
The ‘Central Arizona Honor Guard’ was there, bagpipes and all, and
( of course ) they had to add it to their ‘Facebook page’ ( with photos )…
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.934650036598938.1073741831.828344357229507&type=3
From that (public) Facebook page and photo album…
——————————————————————————
Central Arizona Honor Guard – FACEBOOK
Flag ceremony for Training Chief Gary Cordes
In honor of his 26 years of service to the citizens of Central Yavapai Fire District our honor guard performed a flag ceremony for retiring Training Chief Gary Cordes. This flag was raised over Station 53 at 0800 on August 4th and recovered this morning, August 5th, at 0800. The flag flew for 24 hours as a symbol of respect for the last 26 years of Chief Cordes’ dedicated career full of 24 hour shifts. Thank you Chief Cordes, enjoy your retirement!
Photo’s courtesy of http://www.livislens.com
——————————————————————————–
Cordes BIO/resume’ has already been removed from the Central Yavapai Fire District website… but a quick visit over to the Internet WAYBACK archives has a complete copy of the Central Yavapai Fire District website as it WAS… back in April of 2013, complete with Gary Cordes’ ‘Battalion Chief’ staff BIO/resume’…
https://web.archive.org/web/20130407123909/http//www.centralyavapaifire.org/seniorstaff.html
From that 2013 CYFD ‘Senior Staff’ web page…
——————————————————
Gary Cordes, Training Chief, Wildland
Chief Cordes has worked in the fire service for 20 years, including his employment with Phoenix area fire departments, and joining Central Yavapai Fire District in 1989. He was promoted from captain to battalion chief in 2004 and is currently enrolled in the National Fire Academy’s Executive Fire Officer Program. He is also a graduate of Arizona State University’s Fire Service Institute, and holds a certification as a paramedic. In addition, he has been active in the District’s Off-Distict Wildland program. Chief Cordes makes his home in the Coyote Springs community.
————————————————————-
No mention of any ACTUAL ‘Wildland’ ratings at all.
All it says is that “he has been active in the District’s Off-Distict Wildland program”, whatever that means.
Central Yavapai Fire District is a Municipal/Structural/Wildland Fire District that responds to all types of incidents.
Cordes’ statement: “I’ve worked my way I’ve worked my way up to the level of division sup, um, over the years” means to me he’s proud of his accomplishment. It is no small endeavor to achieve DIVS status.
Reading too much into it I say because of your vilification mission.
See above. I found evidence that Gary Cordes was, in fact, hired as an actual “Division Supervisor” on the Arizona Oak Creek fire in July of 2014…
…but I can still find no evidence that he was, in fact, a FULLY qualified red-carded ready-to-rock DIVSUP at any time PRIOR to July of 2014.
Do you know any different… from your ‘grapevine’?
Was this guy really and truly a fully qualified DIVSUP on June 30, 2013… and not still a (T)rainee or needing any more signatures in his task book?
Cordes made a TRUE statement to the Investigator because there is NO such thing as a ‘Structure Group Specialist.’
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on February 17, 2016 at 4:46 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Cordes made a TRUE statement to the Investigator because
>> there is NO such thing as a ‘Structure Group Specialist.’
Ah… okay. So you really DO think Cordes was sitting there playing the “Ask me the exact right question and I might give you the right answer” game.
I understand… but read on.
Here is the FULL sentence that Cordes spoke back to ADOSH when being asked if he had any kind of ‘specialist’ rating related to ‘structure protection’.
Cordes actually said “I am NOT a specialist’ TWICE in the same sentence…
———————————————————————–
91 Q2: Hey Gary, I was just wondering you – I’m gonna presume that you have a
92 structure uh, group specialist or however you got that on your red track?
93
94 A: No, I’m not a structure group specialist. However, most of the division work I
95 do is as a structured group, um, doing structure protection. But I’m not a
96 specialist.
———————————————————————–
So how would you read his SECOND admission ( in the same sentence ) that he was ‘not a specialist’.
The way I read that SECOND admission is along the lines of…
“Yea… when I work as a DIVS I end up doing a lot of structure protection stuff… but I wouldn’t call myself any kind of ‘specialist’ in that area”.
In other words… “NO… I do NOT have a ‘Structure Protection Specialist’ ( STPS ) rating on my RED-CARD”.
If he DID have that ( a current STPS rating )… then what interpretation would you give to that SECOND half of his response to ADOSH?
WTKTT:
I’m fairly damn proud of myself right now as I think I may have found an answer to a question at the same time you did. See my post at the top.
Woodsman
I don’t think of this as a ‘GAME.’ He’s answering the question(s) posed to him.
He admits to doing STRUCTURE GROUP duties as well as DIVISION Supervisor duties. Perfectly legitimate.
I have NO problem with his responses. Words mean things and he is answering the question as it was asked of him.
This is my reply to Woodsman below regarding the roles and responsibilities of a DIVISION SUPERVISOR versus a GROUP SUPERVISOR.
Robert the Second says February 16, 2016 at 9:54 pm
Woodsman,
Hearken back to your ICS training. Recall that there is a Division / Group Supervisor (DIVS) and a Structure Protection Specialist (STPS), however there is NOT a Structure Protection Group Supervisor.
Recall that Divisions are GEOGRAPHICAL in nature and Groups are established to divide the incident into FUNCTIONAL areas of operation. Groups are composed of resources assembled to PERFORM A SPECIAL FUNCTION not necessarily within a single geographic division. GROUPS, WHEN ACTIVATED, ARE LOCATED BETWEEN BRANCHES AND RESOURCES IN THE OPERATIONS SECTION, according to the Glossary of Wildland Fire Terminology.
So then, a Division Supervisor is in charge of a defined piece of ground – geographically – from Point A to Point B or something similar.
A Group Supervisor, on the other hand, is in charge of a specific tactical GROUP, separate from the geographical bounds of a Division, for a specific mission, e.g. Structure Group, T and E Species Group, or some other touchy-feely mission.
I think it would have been best for the YH Fire IMT’s to designate the three (3) YH Fire STPS as specific GROUP SUPERVISORS as such rather than as general STPS, for both supervision and chain of command purposes. Much cleaner.
Typically, the Structure Group is well outside the fire perimeter on its separate mission of preparing for structure defense and they work for the Structure Group Supervisor.
Unless, predetermined in briefings and such, the problems arise when the fire escapes Divisional boundaries and burns into the once-isolated Structure Group area-of-responsibility (AOR).
All manner of confusion and unsafe tactics and strategy prevail otherwise. In other words, it’s a royal goat f**k if this is a reactionary decision, instead of a predetermined one.
Fire Order #3 – Base all actions on current and EXPECTED behavior of the fire. This was the case on the June 1990 Dude Fire, very similar in many ways to the YH Fire.
Who is in charge of whom at this point? The overrun Structure Group AOR is now enveloped by the fire and technically under the supervision of the DIVISION Supervisor UNLESS it was previously discussed and determined to be still under the GROUP Supervisor’s responsibility.
As a DIVS, I’m sure you can imagine the clusterf**k.”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
February 18, 2016 at 10:15 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I don’t think of this as a ‘GAME.’ He’s answering the
>> question(s) posed to him.
Exactly… and the ‘question’ that was being ‘posed’ to him by the ADOSH investigator was ( paraphrasing )…
‘So… since we see in the Dispatch Logs from Saturday night that you agreed to fill a specific resource order for a “Structure Protection Specialist”… I guess we can assume you have that rating somewhere on your RED CARD?”
And Gary Cordes answered that question with ( paraphrasing ).
“No. I do some structure protection stuff but I don’t consider myself a ‘specialist’ and I do NOT have that RED-CARD rating”.
If he DID have those qualifications and that red-card rating… his answer would have been simply…
“Yes. Next question.”
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> …he is answering the question as it was asked of him.
Yes… and his answer was in the NEGATIVE.
“I do some structure protection stuff… but I am NOT any kind of ‘specialist'”.
Okay. I’m still not sure what you’re saying here.
I fully support Gary Cordes and what he told the investigators. He is telling the truth and admitting he is NOT a ‘specialist’ of whatever sort.
Under the Type 3 Organization outlined in the Red Book, he was fully qualified to serve in that role with either his DIVS qualifications or his Single Resource or Task Force Leader qualifications.
I can’t say for certain what someone else is trying to say but maybe something like this:
“06/29/2013 22:25:14 – PDC tells ADC that Ralph Lucas is ‘out of state’ and they are trying to get in touch with Gary Cordes. ADC says any alternate to Lucas will do… but that person MUST be a ‘Structure Protection Specialist’ (STPS) since that what the orders are for and that is what Russ Shumate requires.”
“MUST be a Structure Protection Specialist (STPS)”
Cordes says he was not. No problem there at all?
RTS said:
“I fully support Gary Cordes and what he told the investigators. He is telling the truth and admitting he is NOT a ‘specialist’ of whatever sort.”
Obviously you can answer this for me if you want or not: Do you know Gary Cordes personally?
RTS said:
“Under the Type 3 Organization outlined in the Red Book, he was fully qualified to serve in that role with either his DIVS qualifications or his Single Resource or Task Force Leader qualifications.”
I totally agree once I reviewed the Red Book. I just don’t know what his qualifications were at that time Although, since WTKTT found an IAP with him as a DIVS in 2014, I find it very likely that he was certainly a TFLD at a minimum (on paper) and probably a DIVS(t) or DIVS outright. But why didn’t he just say that in the ADOSH interview? And why are just his (as far as I can tell) resource order and qualifications records missing?
Woodsman
I met Gary Cordes many years ago, prior to the YH Fire, at his Fire Station during an S-course training.
Under a Type 3 Organization, I believe he was minimally and fully qualified performing the structure protection tasks he was assigned to June 30, 2013.
It does seem odd that his Resource Order and Qualification records are missing, however, it could just be coincidence.
“Don’t forget… this is the same guy who thought the ‘Safety Zone’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch was 20-30 acres in size.
He was WILDLY wrong. ”
This is one of the points I’m trying to make. The city slicker municipal guys are FAMOUS for over-estimating acreage. So much so that we have a standing joke locally that when structural guys get on scene and report a fire of a certain size……..you can just about count on it being about 1/10th the size they think it is or less. A fifty acre fire seems like a square mile (section) to them (640 acres). Which is fun to laugh at, of course……………….unless they found a way to a fireline leadership position…………..and estimated the size of a safety zone with these same ‘skills.’……………….Well, then it’s not so fucking funny to me anymore.
Woodsman
Moved up because, in for a penny, in for a pound.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
FEBRUARY 16, 2016 AT 1:10 PM
Yea… but how many times did you show up to a rodeo where the entire fire command was just a bunch of retired guys ‘thrown together’ the night before… half of whom didn’t even show up the next day… with the IC just sitting in an air conditioned classroom with NO RADIO and only worried about what the paperwork for TOMORROW was going to look like?
Gary Olson says
FEBRUARY 16, 2016 AT 10:02 PM
That is a really easy one to answer.
NEVER and until the Yarnell Hill Fire
NEVER EVEN HEARD OF IT OR KNEW IT HAPPENED
I also think it is a really bad idea and a lousy way to save money, Arizona Division of Forestry.
I am aware of old guys working ADD filling in, in support roles on the periphery, non-essential essential people,
1. Supply
2. Logistics
3. Safety
4. Communications
5. Public Information Officers
Line, Command, Operations, No fucking way! Why do you think they are retired in the first place?
It’s because the system decided they had outlived their usefulness and they (as a group) were NOT reliable anymore. Of course there are exception, but the system doesn’t try to evaluate who is used up (burned out) and who is not. They just assign a number the average person burns out and go with that. It used to be 55 for all Public Safety Employees which is law enforcement and fire.
It’s the same thing the government (GSA) does with vehicles, they know at and beyond a certain mileage those vehicles are going to be more trouble and cost more than they are worth…so they are sold as surplus. It is purely a business decision.
So yes, knowing you, you know all of this and you are pimping me, the former insider who knows how the system works forward and backward and every which way and who is not afraid to tell it exactly like it is because I only have to worry about keeping my dear wife from kicking me to the curb, everyone else can line up and kiss my ass.
So here is the bottom line. The Yarnell Hill Fire was being run by a bunch of burned out, used up, broken down, has beens who were not still in their previous jobs because the FEDERAL government considered them to be unreliable and potentially walking talking marginally functioning TRAIN WRECKS looking for a place to happen….and guess what, they found it on the Yarnell Hill Fire. The chickens came home to roost.
Why do you think I don’t have any government issued guns anymore and my badge say’s RETIRED on it instead of a number…they don’t trust me to be able to do the right thing anymore, or at least the chance I will do the wrong thing is too high for them to accept. I am not an acceptable risk to the people of the United States anymore. And neither were those stupid fucks running the Yarnell Hill Fire.
There. I have done my duty and fulfilled my role on this thread.
Reply
Gary Olson says
FEBRUARY 16, 2016 AT 10:11 PM
Whoops., got lost there on my tirade. The number for mandatory retirement was moved to 57 a few years ago, but beyond that, the federal government considers all of those who were rode hard and put away wet too many times over a lifetime of high stress work…are now washed up and fit only for the pasture and maybe as fill ins for some jobs where they can’t hurt themselves or anyone else. For example, retired Special Agents can get hired as instructors at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, but even that has a time limit of no more than 4 years and requires a congressional waiver. Guess what. The fucking federal government is NOT NICE. They don’t have this policy because they are NICE employers who want to give away special benefits because they are NICE. They do it because people in those jobs are not worth the risk they bring to the job after age 57….no exceptions. It is MANDATORY retirement.
Reply
Gary Olson says
FEBRUARY 16, 2016 AT 10:13 PM
OK…in case I didn’t make myself clear. The Arizona Division of Forestry got EXACTLY what they PAID for on the Yarnell Hill Fire. No more, no less.
Whoops, almost forgot to add that the REASON the Arizona Division of Forestry are employing used up, burned out cast off, has beens that are no longer suitable to fight federal fires except as casual AD pickups in the categories previously described to fight THEIR fires…is because the Arizona State Legislature does not fund them to do anything differently or better..
Hire that bunch who ran the Yarnell HIll Fire to put on some pretty good training with lots of really interesting war stories about the old days or to pick up the lunches at the local diner and drive them out to the fire, but as blue flame hard charging commanders? Those days are in their rear view mirrors. Fighting a fire as uncompromising and unforgiving as the Yarnell Hill Fire…even they thought the bodies of the elderly residents of Yarnell were going to be stacked up like cord wood.
I have said this before and it may sound…strange….but we as a society got really lucky on the Yarnell Hill Fire. All of the variable were in place to make that fire a real tragedy compared to how it actually turned out.
Like I have I said before, saying, “Gee…the fire exponentially outperformed our expectations” does not cut it. We as a society have collectively decided that we will recruit, train and equip people to handle those situations, even when whatever they are facing outperforms their expectations…deal with it, no excuses. That is what you get paid for and why you get the big bucks compared to the average citizen.
While I retired at 50 with 33 years and had no feeling that I wanted to continue as a AD on fires that was my choice I could have done just that.
I know many who did and filled line positions.
The mass exodus of Highly qualified Wild land FF retiring in the 90’s in their 50’s through a major problem at Wild Land Fire. They had no one to step up and fill many of the Fire positions.
Many retired FF went back as AD and still do today.
For example RTS who is a AD Safety Officer. AS long as they can pass the Physical requirements they are working in more than Fire camp and Driver positions.
I guess you could say they are double dipping. Pulling retirement and working AD
positions.
Another thing that has happened in the past few years in the FS new professionals in other than Fire jobs are not taking on FF jobs which has severally hampered the wild land fire overhead positions which are now being filled by AD’s many who are retired.
I would say as well THAT most are not as WTKTT has portrayed them. Many in their 50’s and early 60’s are still highly qualified resources Physically fit and highly trained. I know severial that worked 5 or more years after retirement on fire teams
here in R4. That to my knowledge is still going on in many locations.
My last and maybe most concern is again ICS when I left the FS there were No IC’s at the IC3 and IC4 levels. The old system had Fire Boss 2 and that was as low as it went along with Line Boss 2. A Division boss was required to meet that level.
I agree with Gary ICS has completely screwed the system.
IC3 or 4 are nothing more than Initial attack supervisors for 1/4 to 10 acre fires.
Type 2’s are not as they should be. especially short teams and that is where the rubber hit the road on Yarnell. They were a mix of different positions who did not train to gather or work to gather that was a huge problem on Sunday.
No Plans Service or Finance no Maps designated Divisions scattered resources doing their own thing. The morning shift should have said all stop got organized
evacuated the towns and made a plan to keep the fire out of structures.
They wasted a lot of time building indirect line and putting a crew on top of the weavers. The decision by a IC4 to not put people on the fire until Saturday at 1100 was a total screw-up. He had a 2 acre fire with no one on it for 18 hours.
He had 2 crews he could have walked in one that night. But evidently they could not walk 2 miles up hill in the dark. He could have set up a Heli spot and been with in two miles from the fire near the Highway on the desert side and shuttled crews to the fire short round trips. I could go on and on but you get the point.
Thanks for your perspective on things and your history in wildfire, The lessons I’m getting here from you old timers (and wtktt as well) is worth more than all the S-classes I’ve had put together!
Woodsman
Bob…you are more or less right just as I was more or less right. My tirade is filled with my usual hyperbole and yours if filled with your usual defense of the system so we are both being true to form.
BUT…I think I am more right. There were many, many, many, professionals who were foresters etc. who also fought fire on the side who fought tooth and nail to get into the early retirement system because they never used to be allowed into it, it was the ONE and ONLY thing techs had going for them that the professionals didn’t have, and then they figured out to get that for themselves as well.
The early retirement system is not and we never intended to be a benefit to help people who are otherwise fit to keep working, retire and then go back and double dip just as they enviously saw all of the structural firefighters they were working with do.
Those part time firefighters who really were managers as foresters etc. should never have been allowed to break into a system that had been earned by techs working manual labor jobs for decades retire early because their bodies and many times their minds were used up.
The part of your statement that is true, is the real dirty little secret (I wasn’t going to go down this road, but you forced my hand) yes, there are many who could keep working in fire that retired early but that only proves they did not deserve to even be in the early retirement system in the first place.
Now, RTS is a special case, he broke all of the known rules with his hotshot career and so now as far as I am concerned he has earned the right to break all of the rules in his retirement. He was given the right by the U.S. Congress to retire early because the actuaries said he was used up by the time he could, and then he proved them wrong be keeping on doing what he had been doing, (not hotshotting) but instead of retiring he could have moved up anytime he wanted to into a less demanding job, he just never wanted to.
Everyone knows the hotshot crew boss job is the launching pad into the ranks of wildland firefighting management, that is what you are supposed to do, RTS was just a rebel who probably didn’t want to sit in endless meetings about nothing with all of the other staff and their stupid programs that a real firefighter could give a shit about. So let;s not use him for comparison, he really is a special case and one in a million.
NOBODY in federal law enforcement retires one day and then essentially keeps on doing the same job they were doing the next day. Do you know why….they deserve early retirement and they NEED it. They can’t keep doing the same job the next day.
And yes, you are right, lots of people from federal wildfire retire one day and then essentially keep doing the same job the next day. Do you know why…they never deserved early retirement in the first place and they didn’t NEED it.
So, Congress really should take it away from them and give them what so many of them want. More years on the job.
The only problem with that…is that some of them really do need it. And those same people should not be allowed to keep working except their personal relationships (buddy deals) and the desire by the state of Arizona to save money, brought many of them to fight the Yarnell Hill Fire AND if their PERFORMANCE there is any judge of their abilities as fire commanders, they are complete and total failures.
The manner in which the Yarnell Hill Fire was managed and the death of the crew are really two separate issues and I am only interested in why the crew died and they didn’t die because that all of the old guys couldn’t get their act together.
But those same old guys literally came very close to killing hundreds of citizens Yarnell. Fortunately for those old incompetent guys, those citizens managed to save themselves.
This discussion is very complicated, but I just wanted to warn you that your write-up above is right about a lot of things, but the thing that it is most right about, is that there are a lot of federal fire fighters who get to retire early and who cost the American taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars in retirement benefits they do not deserve.
So…there are a lot of people out there right now in on the scam who are hoping you and I quit talking about this before some congressional staffer picks up on and starts hearings on the giant waste fraud and abuse of the Public Safety Retirement System so many so-called wildland firefighters are currently abusing and planning on abusing as soon as they can.
In other words….Shhhhhhush God Damnit
Gary, Thanks for giving me an exemption.
The IMT’S cannot complete their Teams without retired AD employees.
I agree that most of them are slugs and should not be in those roles. The State and Federal agencies are not training up their militia, as they call them, to fill these critical positions.
They finally did so in the ATGS Air Attack realm, but still woefully defect in Safety, Plans, Logistics, and several others.
I’m looking forward to reading Dr. Putnam’s paper on the Battlement Creek Fire.
Anybody that spent as many years as you did as a hotshot can get a waiver from me to do anything you like.
However, you make my point very nicely so I want to thank you for that. Of course they can’t do it without retired AD employees so you are enabling them NOT to recruit, hire and train and thereby EMPLOY your replacements.
So…you and the others like you are taking jobs away from young people and I think everyone else except you should STOP doing that most ricky tick.
Yes, there will be pain for the first couple of years while the taxpayers property and National Forests etc. burn up, but that will force the agencies and that worthless U.S. Congress to focus on something other than passing bills to get rid of Obama Care for the 789th time and do something productive instead.
It might even force the State of Arizona Legislature to get off their penny pinching asses and do the right thing for once in the history of the state.
Wow, this is GREAT. I get to sit here and blog about how screwed up the politicians and the government agencies are just because I don’t have anything else to do. Isn’t American wonderful?
Gotcha. So, in other words. those of us that go out as AD’s are allowing or making a ‘Failed System’ continue to work.
We often all did that as Hot Shots. Rather than allow the system or whatever to fail, we naturally adapted, adjusted, and overcame the shortcomings and made it work.
The overhead would say things like, “What’s the problem, it’s working or it worked didn’t it?
Yes, it worked because we made it work. So then, we were part of the problem and not part of the solution.
It’s extremely difficult to allow a system to fail when lives and property are at stake, just to prove a point.
Gary,
Labeling me a whatever “buddy f**ker’ was a bit over the top. WTF.
I certainly never considered myself a sodomite.
Just taking advantage of an opportunity to go to fires, do my best to make a difference, get paid to travel throughout the United States, see some good fire behavior, do my best to encourage management to ‘MANAGE fires to achieve resource benefit’ according to the Federal Fire Policy, instead of control certain fires,and make some extra money.
This was a January 11, 2016 email from a WFF colleague regarding a YH Fire Staff Ride. And yes, to your chagrin this unnamed WFF colleague will remain unnamed, so get over it. You have ‘the right to ask’ and I have the right to refuse.
This is due to a Court-imposed mandate to develop a YH Fire Staff Ride based on one of the Court settlements. There are many that feel this is too early to do a Staff Ride, as emotions ares still way too high.
“The Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Development Group would like to formally invite you to participate in our “Alpha” test Staff Ride. We are looking for tenured individuals that can provide a clear, unvarnished yet diverse perspective on our product. You have also been identified as being familiar with the concept and methodology of staff ride development.
“Understanding the challenges for travel within our varied agencies, please forward this email to the appropriate approving personnel as necessary. The Interagency collaboration for a Wildland Fire educational product of this magnitude comes with no small level of appreciation.
“We are limited to 12 participants as an effective size with this first group. As a result, we are only requesting your availability and willingness to participate at this point.”
This Group is meeting in Precott, AZ and will be traveling to Yarnell and the YH Fire this week. Interestingly, the initial YHF Staff Ride Development Group included WFF types from all over the United States.
And guess who was NOT invited, besides me? But of course, Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hot Shots! Really? The Crew that was right there, engaged in face-to-face and radio conversations with the GMHS overhead, and much more and they are NOT invited? Now WTF is up with that?
The email stated: “We are looking for tenured individuals that can provide a CLEAR, UNVARNISHED YET DIVERSE PERSPECTIVE ON OUR PRODUCT.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
This appears to be some type of Orwellian doublespeak looking for only those that will speak the Party Line, follow only what the SAIR and ADOSH Reports states, and not rock the boat with infernal things like the TRUTH and what they really saw and heard and experienced.
OMG, the truth – you mean we aren’t allowed to talk about the truth and what happened and/or may have happened?
A little history and insight on Staff Rides with several links and good information in each one from the Leadership.gov Toolbox. The links include: ‘About Staff Rides, Facilitator Tips, Staff Ride References, the Library, and Local Staff Ride Archive.’
“Staff rides were developed by the Prussian Army in the early nineteenth century and have been used by the militaries in many countries since then. In the 1970’s the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps turned to staff rides with great enthusiasm and now they are considered essential instructional techniques in advanced military schools and in field units.”
“The intent of a staff ride is to put participants in the shoes of the decision makers on a historical incident in order to learn for the future. A staff ride should not be a tactical-fault finding exercise. Participants should be challenged to push past the basic question of “What happened?” and examine the deeper questions of leadership and decision-making: “What would I have done in this person’s place?” “How detailed should the guidance from a superior to a subordinate be?” “Can a senior leader make use of a competent but overzealous subordinate?” “What explains repeated organizational success or failure?” The study of leadership aspects in a staff ride transcend time and place.”
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
February 17, 2016 at 7:37 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> This was a January 11, 2016 email from
>> a WFF colleague regarding a YH Fire
>> Staff Ride.
—————————–
A staff ride should not be a tactical-fault finding exercise. Participants should be challenged to push past the basic question of “What happened?” and examine the deeper questions of leadership and decision-making: “What would I have done in this person’s place?”
—————————–
Gibberish.
How can anyone ‘push past’ anything and ask themselves “What would I have done in this person’s place”… WITHOUT first having a full understanding of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
And what happens when you DO ‘push past’ the ‘basic questions’ and you still have to end up admitting that a huge tactical error WAS made… and that’s why people died?
Cancel the staff ride?
Give everyone their money back and some discount coupons for ‘other’ staff rides
It really is a lot like asking 12 sea captains ( sorry… that’s all the room we have in the boat ) to sail out out to where the Titanic sank… and have a ‘discussion’ about what you would have done if you were the ‘captain’…
…but making it ‘verboten’ to discuss the fact that the company that owned the ship was expecting it to break the North-Atlantic transit record… and that there weren’t enough (sober) lookouts on duty to see the Icebergs.
And yes, Dr. Putnam’s paper on Battlement Creek is really, really, really good. There are going to be a lot of people who should not be looking forward to reading it or having it out there. It is going to completely rewrite the history of the Battlement Creek Fire.
Too late Bob, you got me started.
Do you know what the big problem is with what RTS and the other greedy buddy fuckers are doing? They are fucking the next generation by being ENABLERS!
Yes, the mass retirement by the Old Guard, all of the guys who just couldn’t stand the direction the USFS were headed what with all of the emphasis placed on protecting spotted owls and a mass hiring and promotion of many unqualified women and other minorities overnight to make up for 100 years of rampant discrimination in one generation sent many old guys out and that created a huge vacuum that those same old guys were able to fill and start double dipping.
What do you think would have happened if all of those greedy old guys who really couldn’t stand spotted owls or women either one in their workplace had not returned to fill the void they created when they left?
Do you think that would have been long term problem and that Congress would let the all of the bitchy tax payers and voters who live in WUI and have vacation homes there keep losing their homes and put the insurance industry out of business? While seeing our National Forests go up in flames every night on television with nobody fighting the fires?.
Or do you think Congress would have been forced to fully fund the USFS so they could do mass hiring of a new generation and get them trained up so they could have the same careers and nice middle class lifestyles all of those retired old guys got to have, except it was even better now because they can double dip.
Every retired old guy hanging on to a wildland fire job by working as a casual AD pick up is keeping a young person from being hired and getting the same opportunity they had. Shame, Shame, Shame.
If RTS and others like him never went out again in a safety position would they eliminate safety positions, or would they hire and train some new blood to become safety officers? Get it?
Gary you did not pay attention to what I said.
Foresters in large numbers do not go into Fire Team positions or train up to those positions. Teams are made up of mostly fire people today from many different agencies and retired FF.
It is not what it use to be.
Also Foresters never were able to retire in the FF Law enforcement series.
They tried but there were to many restrictions to get through.
And it could not be part time. It had to be thru the Forestry Tech Fire series and even then you could not have a break in fire job.
The fire prevention tech was questioned and you had to get a statement from your old boss that your primary duty was Fire suppression The only thing that satisfied that was that you were assigned a Patrol rig that had a water pumper on it. I had to get that letter from the Angeles to qualify my work status and retire under FF Retirement.
For got THE NEXT GENERATION IS NOT WHAT IT WAS.
GS 11 and above FMO’s requires a Bachelors degree.
All positions in tech series are now stopped at GS 9
Many District FMO’s are now GS 11 Some at the 9 level are now required to have a Bachelors Degree as well.
All Forest FMO’s are GS 12/13/14 depending on location.
The whole system has changed from the Old school Fire.
I know Bob and I did pay attention to what you said. You said “Teams are made up of mostly fire people today from many different agencies and retired FF.”
To which I say, and if retired FF stop enabling the agencies not to hire a new generation of wildland firefighters, they will have to do so or answer for why everybody’s everything is burning up without anybody doing anything about it. How long do you thing that will last? Or how will it last when there is nobody but those silly gooses who wear those funny round hats and play bagpipes?
As I keep saying, ICS gave the federal agencies, primarily the USFS the room to kill off its own fire service and now those who are retired from that fire service are allowing them to keep it up.
And I am really sorry to be the one to tell the wildland firefighting community this because I know how legendary Roy Hall and many of the others were on that fire, but their performance truly was shameful and completely inadequate.
I don’t know why? I know Roy Hall and some of the others were the very best the USFS ever produced. Were they afraid to spend Arizona state money or they wouldn’t be ask back? If I were the IC or Ops on the Yarnell Hill Fire I would just fade into the sunset, they really fucked up on that fire.
There was no excuse for the slow build up, the failure to order a timely evacuation, the failure to anticipate the fire turning around and burning back into town, the failure to fill critical positions.
It was not one thing, it never is in disaster like that, they are responsible for a long cascading falling domino of one abject failure after another and they almost were responsible for the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people.
A college degree is really not that hard to get and there are some real benefits of having one. A college degree is not proof of complete incompetence.
Techs complained for years that they were held back and couldn’t get promotions, but at the same time many of them refused to get advanced training or higher educations and they especially REFUSED to move from their sweet little home settings is really nice little towns.
Yes, once they started consolidating districts it and upgrading their FMO positions, it meant moving into bigger towns and sometimes some really big cities because that is where the big offices are.
And to get those positions upgraded it meant meeting lots of additional OPM criteria as to why a position deserves to be paid more and as you know, it can’t come from simply doing MORE work, it had to come from an increase in the COMPLEXITY of the work and it is not in the hands of individual agency personnel officers, it has to meet standardized criteria from OPM itself and they are real bastards at stopping grade creep. It’s complicated and not easy to pull off.
I know several who did it. So, you are wrong about that. Not in law enforcement…in fire. It took years and lots of appeals to OPM but a lot of the bastards actually pulled it off.
I have known many who tried and have never herd of even one that succeeded. So if you personally can say they actually retired under the FF Retirement then that would be a real surprise to Me and many I know. None in R4 that I know of and
My friends in R5 say they never herd of any winning their law suits because they could not meet the criteria.
Reply to Woodsman post on February 16, 2016 at 8:03 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I need to look at the resource orders again to try and understand all of this.
>> I want to see what position Cordes was ordered as.
You won’t find it.
Gary Cordes’ actual ‘Resource Order’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire has always been conspicuously MISSING from the official ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document that was SUPPOSED to contain ALL ‘Resource Orders’ related to the Yarnell Hill Fire. The whole rodeo. Soup to nuts.
According to that official ‘Resource Orders’ document… this person who was one of the most PIVOTAL characters in the entire tragedy ( and who would go on to accept the AWFA “Firefighter of the Year'” award for ‘rescues’ that he probably never even did at Yarnell )… was never even there.
The only official mention of Gary Cordes being ‘ordered up’ as an STPS for Yarnell ( which he himself told ADOSH he was not qualified for ) comes in the official ‘Dispatch Logs’ for Saturday night, June 29, 2013.
See below.
>> On February 16, 2016 at 7:46 pm, Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Agreed. In order to be classified as a STPS, you must be a qualified DIVS or ICT3.
Gary Cordes told ADOSH he was a DIVS… but in the same breath he told them he was NOT any kind of ‘Structure Protection Specialist’ (STPS), even though the ‘Dispatch Logs’ ( see below ) prove that is the position he was requested for in Yarnell on Saturday night… and he accepted it.
From Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013…
Q = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
Q2 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
—————————————————————
20 Q: Okay. So Chief Cordes, how long have you worked for the Central Yavapai
21 Fire District?
22
23 A: I’m in my 24th year uh, which I will hit my 24th anniversary November 13th …
24
25 Q: Okay.
26
27 A: …of this year.
28
29 Q: And the current position is?
30
31 A: I’m a Battalion Chief…
32
33 Q: Battalion Chief.
34
35 A: …and I’m our, our training Chief.
36
37 Q: Okay.
38
39 A: That’s my current position.
40
41 Q: Okay. And what kind of uh, can you give us a little synopsis of your history,
42 or you career in firefighting and any special training or certifications that you
43 hold?
44
45 A: Um, I’ve been in the fire 45 service a total of 29 years. Um, I’m, I’m a
46 paramedic um, I worked my way up through the ranks. Um, a myriad, I hold
47 over 55 different certificates for training. Um, uh primarily uh, as far as
48 related to the wildland aspect it’s only been 24 years of my career that I’ve
49 been involved in that, ever since coming to Central Yavapai, ‘cause we are in
50 the urban interface and, and I’ve worked my way up to the level of division
51 sup, um, over the years.
52
53 Q: Okay. And you have a lot of different red card, red card certifications?
54
55 A: I have a few red card certifications, yeah.
56
57 Q: Okay. Uh, Barry, do you need to know any of that or (Dave)?
58
59 Q1: Uh yeah, that’d help if we could hear it.
60
61 A: Um, I’m uh, Strike Team Engine Task Force leader and Divs.
62
63 Q: Task force leader and division supervisor.
64
65 A: And I have uh, B-Sawyer as well.
66
67 Q: Okay.
68
69 A: (Unintelligible). It’s been awhile since I’ve looked at it. Engine boss, and
70 paramedic.
90
91 Q2: Hey Gary, I was just wondering you – I’m gonna presume that you have a
92 structure uh, group specialist or however you got that on your red track?
93
94 A: No, I’m not a structure group specialist. However, most of the division work I
95 do is as a structured group, um, doing structure protection. But I’m not a
96 specialist.
97
98 Q2: Alright. I know that they’ve got that.
99
100 A: Yeah, it’s, it’s an addition. Technically, as a division you can work either in a
101 group standing or a geographical division.
102
103 Q2: Okay. Uh, okay, sounds good.
—————————————————————
So Cordes told ADOSH flat out…
“No, I’m NOT a structure group specialist”.
But according to Gary Cordes… ( at least in his own mind )… he was NOT ordered as a ‘Structure Protection Specialist’ ( STPS )… because he wouldn’t even have been qualified for that ( even though the Dispatch Logs prove otherwise ).
In HIS mind… he was simply ordered up as a DIVS who would be in charge of a ‘structured group’ that just happened to be focusing on ‘structure protection’… even though he, himself, didn’t even consider himself a ‘structure protection specialist’.
Confusing, or what?
But it gets better.
Even though the ‘Dispatch Logs’ absolutely PROVE that Shumate was ‘ordering up’ TWO ‘Structure Protection Specialists’ on Saturday night… he ‘backtracks’ on that in his own Unit Log and says he was ordering up ‘two DIVS’.
In Russ Shumate’s (typed) Unit Log… he says nothing about ordering up ANY ‘STPS’ and/or ‘SPGS’ on Saturday night, after the fire had escaped Initial Attack.
Shumate says he ordered two DIVS to help plan ‘structure protection’.
The ‘Dispatch Logs’ ( see below ) totally contradict this… but here is Shumate’s Unit Log…
————————————————————————-
Yarnell Hill Fire – IA Action Log
Compiled from handwritten notes and recollection by:
Russ Shumate – July 19, 2013
————————————————————————–
Saturday, June 29, 1900-2400 ( 7:00 PM to MIDNIGHT )
I had BLM severity Engines report to YFD ( Yarnell Fire Department ) and become incorporated into the fire organization as night structure protection.
These engines were TNF E58, BLM E1660, BLM E3665.
I added E151 as well to this task.
I briefed the engine crews at YFD at approx. 2130 ( 9:30 PM ) and the plan was to have them learn the area of Yarnell and Peeples Valley so as to facilitate the preparation of a triage plan.
I ordered up 2 DIVS from Prescott Basin to help in structure protection utilizing these engines.
These DIVS ( Gary Cordes from Central Yavapai FD and Darrell Willis from PFD ) showed up approx. 2230-2330 ( 10:30 to 11:30 PM ) and were briefed by myself on conditions and the plan.
Gave structure protection AZ state Tac 2 as a freq.
Structure protection worked for IC ( Me, Russ Shumate ).
Plan of action for Structure protection: Gary Cordes would recon and direct actions in Yarnell. Darrell Willis would take the engines ( who had already had area familiarization of Yarnell ) out the Model creek road and assess that area. Prepare a structure protection plan to implement with all the ordered incoming resources in the morning ( Sunday morning, June 30, 2013 ).
Signed: Russ Shumate
—————————————————————
And here is where it gets EVEN better still…
At the start of of Darrell Willis’ Unit Log, he says Arizona Interagency Dispatch Center ( AIDC ) first contacted him at 2000 ( 8:00 PM ) on Saturday night, June 29, 2013, and wanted him to fill a STPS ( Structure Protection Specialist ) position in Yarnell.
Willis makes no mention of him being ordered up as a ‘DIVS’ for Yarnell.
Willis first turned them down because he wanted to go to church the next morning.
When Shumate was told Willis turned down the ‘STPS’ order… Russ Shumate contacted Willis directly and asked him to please come to Yarnell to help him out.
Willis’ Unit Log then says he accepted the ‘STPS’ assignment 2 hours after the initial request, at 2200 ( 10:00 PM ) Saturday night, and Willis headed for Yarnell.
From Willis own Unit Log…
——————————————————————–
1. Incident Name: Yarnell Hill
2. Date prepared: 7/22/13
3. Time prepared: ( No entry )
4. Unit Name / Designators: Structure Group #1
5. Unit Leader ( Name and Position ): Darrell Willis, DIVS / Group Sup.
6. Operational Period: Night/Day 6/29 – 6/30
6/29/13 – 2000
Request from AIDC to fill STPS position on Yarnell Hill fire. Turned down request.
6/29/13 – 2200
Second request from AIDC to assist Russ Shumate with Yarnell Hill, patched me
through to Russ. We discussed need and I accepted the assignment.
Enroute at 2230 in AOV ( Agency Owned Vehicle ) #1272.
——————————————————————–
So even in Willis’ own Unit Log we see him saying all of the following…
1. That he was only asked by AIDC to fill an ‘STPS’ ( Structure Protection Specialist ) position.
2. But when he got around to doing his ‘Unit Log’… he now says he considered his ‘position’ on the fire to be DIVS / Group Sup. ( SPGS, not STPS ).
Here is Willis’ actual resource order in the official ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document that ( supposedly ) contained ALL of the resource orders for the Yarnell Hill Fire…
According to his ‘Resource Order’… Willis WAS officially ‘ordered up’ as a DIVS.
But with a ‘Special Needs’ NOTE saying:
IMMEDIATE NEED STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALIST ( STPS ).
——————————————————————–
Request Number: O-18
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2238 PNT
From: AZ-ADC ( Dispatch ) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS)
Needed Date/Time: 06/29/13 2240 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: AZ-ADC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/29/13 2243 PNT
Resource Assigned Unit Id: AZ-PRC
Resource Assigned: WILLIS, DARRELL (AZADC) [EFF/AD]
M/D Ind.: M
Estimated Time Of Departure: 06/29/13 2245 PNT
Estimated Time Of Arrival: 06/29/13 2345 PNT
Released Date: ( No entry )
Released To: ( No entry )
Travel Mode: AOV ( Agency Owned Vehicle )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( Yarnell Hill Fire )
Special Needs: IMMEDIATE NEED STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALIST (STPS)
Reporting Instructions: ( No entry )
——————————————————————–
There is absolutely NO RESOURCE ORDER in this document for ‘Gary Cordes’.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
One of the most important ‘players’ in the entire Yarnell Hill Fire, and there is NO official record that he was ever ‘ordered up’ for the fire at all… or what POSITION he might have been ‘ordered up’ to fullfil. DIVS? SPGS? STPS? Other?
Only in the ‘Dispatch Logs’ do we get any kind of a ‘hint’ as to exactly how Gary Cordes himself was ‘ordered up’ on Saturday night. The answer seems to be ‘STPS’ ( and NOT as a ‘DIVS’ ).
See next ‘Reply’ for the actual ‘Dispatch Logs’, showing how this all actually ‘went down’…
( Continued from above )…
** DISPATCH LOGS
The first evidence of these two ‘Structure Protection Specialist’ orders on Saturday night in the Dispatch Logs comes at 2214 ( 10:14 PM ) Saturday night.
The ‘Prescott Alarm Room’ didn’t know what Dispatch was talking about, and they told ‘Dispatch’ to ‘go direct’ for these two ‘structure protection specialists’…
—————————————————————————————–
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:14:32
From: KM
To: PRESCOTT
Details: ALARM ROOM: NEED 2 STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALISTS TO REPORT TO THE YARNELL HILL FIRE. IMMEDIATE NEED. // AS FAR AS WE KNOW YOU NEED TO ORDER DIRECT TO THE OVERHEAD FOR MISC POSITIONS.
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:15:33
From: KM
To: RUSS ( SHUMATE )
Details: PRESCOTT ALARM SAID TO GO DIRECT, THEY DIDN’T KNOW WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT.
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:19:19
From: NT
To: PRESCOTT
Detail: ALARM: PAGE OUT RALPH LUCAS AND GARY CORDIS FOR IMMEDIATE NEED
———————————————————————————-
So there is the only ‘official’ documentation that ‘Gary Cordes’ was ever actually being ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell at all… and it was to fulfill an ‘STPS’ order. Someone was told to ‘page’ him at 22:19:10 ( 10:19 PM ) the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013.
Ralph Lucas was someone’s ( who? ) ‘first choice’ for the other STPS, and NOT Darrell Willis.
But a few minutes later… we learn that ‘Lucas’ was ‘out of state’…
———————————————————————————-
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:25:14
From: PRESCOTT
To: KM
Detail: ALARM: RALPH LUCAS IS OUT OF STATE. 1 OTHER PERSON THAT MIGHT BE AVAILABLE. GARY CORDIS, WE ARE TRYING TO GET AHOLD OF.// OKAY, AS LONG AS THE OTHER PERSON IS A STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALIST, THAT’S WHAT WE NEED // OKAY
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:30:06
From: GARY-PRC
To: KM
Detail:
Gary Cordes said: SOMEONE WAS TRYING TO PAGE ME?
KM said: YES, PLEASE RESPOND TO MODDLE CREEK SCHOOL IN YARNELL FOR IMMEDIATE NEED. COME UP ON TAC 1 OR 2 OR STATE REPEATER 1.
Gary Cordes said: COPY, I’LLL GET MY STUFF TOGETHER AND HEAD OUT THERE.
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:33:41
From: YAZMINE
To: KM
STILL TRYING TO GET A HOLD OF CORDIS.// I’VE ALREADY TALKED
TO HIM // OKAY, OUR OTHER OPTION DIDN’T WORK, SO JUST THE ONE.
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:35:52
From: KM
To: RUSS ( SHUMATE )
KM said: GARY IS > ( on his way ), NO OTHER
Russ Shumate said: OKAY, ORDER A DIVS FOR IMMEDIATE NEED.
** NOTE: And that’s when ‘Darrell Willis’ enters the picture, ordered as a ‘DIVS’,
** and we see him ‘accepting’ that assignment at 2242 ( 10:42 PM ) Saturday night…
Date/Time: 06/29/2013 22:42:19
From: WILLIS
To: IC ( RUSS SHUMATE )
Russ Shumate said: I’M LOOKING FOR SOMEONE TO COME AND BABYSIT FOR TONIGHT UPDATED ON FIRE ACTIVITY NEED QUICK DIV SUPS FOR SHORT TERM
Darrell Willis said: I’LL HEAD DOWN IN ABOUT AN HOUR
Russ Shumate said: ICP WILL BE AT MUDDLE CREEK SCHOOL IN PEEBLES VALLEY
—————————————————————————————————–
So this ‘Dispatch’ exchange says that Gary Cordes WAS accepting an ‘order’ to report to Yarnell as a ‘Structure Protection Specialist’ ( STPS )… even though he would later tell ADOSH he was no such thing.
Someone tried to fill Shumate’s request for a SECOND ‘STPS’ with someone named ‘Ralph Lucas’… but Lucas was ‘out of state’… and then someone thought of someone else ( unidentified in logs )… but that ‘option’ fell through, too.
So when Dispatch then informed Shumate that they could only come up with ONE ‘STPS’ who could respond immediately ( Gary Cordes )… Shumate then told Dispatch to bump the order UP from ‘STPS’ to ‘DIVS’… but still keep it IMMEDIATE NEED.
And that’s when Darrell Willis entered the picture.
Willis WAS then officially ordered up as a ‘DIVS’, and not as an ‘STPS’. Willis’ ‘DIVS’ order just ended up with a ‘Special Needs’ note that said…
IMMEDIATE NEED STRUCTURE PROTECTION SPECIALIST (STPS)
So based on this evidence… could it be that someone ( in the SAIT? ) decided they better NOT actually SHOW an official ‘Resource Order’ for Gary Cordes as an ‘STPS’ in the ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document… because even Cordes admitted to ADOSH that he was ‘no such thing’… but he had ‘fulfilled’ the order for that ‘STPS’ on Saturday night, anyway?
Did the SAIT ‘freak out’ when they, themselves, discovered that one of the key witnesses and one of the most PIVOTAL characters in the whole Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy wasn’t even actually ( officially ) QUALIFIED to be doing what he had been hired to do in Yarnell… and they better ‘disappear’ his ‘Resource Order’ that would PROVE it?
Battalion Chief eh? Well, I have some thoughts about THAT………………..
Woodsman
Open Letter to all Battalion Chiefs of America:
You are not qualified to operate in a leadership role on a complex developing wildfire in this country.
You are a product of the municipal and ‘structural’ fire service.
Cease and desist immediately ALL endeavors into Federal Casual Hire ‘AD’ assignments.
Your lack of upbringing in wildland fire and your entrenchment in the structural fire service has created a dire situation that identifies YOU as a serious liability to the safety of both true wildland firefighters across the land as well as yourself.
The ‘AD’ Casual Hire system IS NOT your supplemental retirement plan.
Your retirement plan has been successfully negotiated by your massive union system. You can retire 5 years earlier than I can and you also receive a huge supplemental stipend to offset the cost of health insurance that I and other true wildland firefighters do not get. I don’t care if this does not satisfy you. Take your doubling of my retirement benefits that you receive 5 years earlier than I do and sit on a beach somewhere – but for the love of humanity STAY OFF of the firelines across the USA.
If you choose to ignore this advice, the probability of increased LODD and injuries to wildland firefighters will continue to rise.
For your part, YOU WILL BE RESPONSIBLE.
Save yourself the mental anguish of this burden for the rest of your life. Help ME help YOU. Go fishing, sit on a beach, play with your grandkids, relax – you’ve made it – your career is over – well done… BUT FOR THE LOVE OF YOUR FELLOW FIREFIGHTERS ACROSS THE LAND, STAY OFF OF THE FIRELINES OF THE USA.
Signed,
Forest Technician
Widland Firefighter
Woodsman
Nice and well said.
Magnificent. And I can feel the concern in your letter for those Battalion Chiefs, it it clear to me that you only want what is best for them. Oh…and everyone else, so it sounds like pretty darn good advice.
Woodsman,
I call it “The Attack of the Blue Shirts.”
You’re painting with a pretty broad brush. There actually are some COMPETENT, qualified, experienced, physically fit, Municipal/Structure/Wildland FF out there.
You just have to do your due diligence when vetting them on their wildland backgrounds.
To me, the major Watch out is always CDF, aka CalFire. Same thing.
I found this post from a fomer Payson HS and collegue of Scott Norris who died with the GMHS on June 30, 2013. It was on the mountain climbing blog titled: On The Edge and Scared To Death.
The former Payson HS had some insightful comments.
“Jan 3, 2014 – 01:16pm PTThanks for posting the article– it’s well written / produced.
Some thoughts:
My experience was that when a fire went sideways and was being transitioned from initial attack to being managed by a team it is always a chaotic, directionless mess. Crews need to be especially heads up while this is going on. I bet if every fire like this were investigated glaring management mistakes during transition would be revealed.
I think the initial thought that the crew was trying to make it to the ranch to protect it is wrong, it seems clear that everyone thought the ranch was an excellent safety zone.
Ultimately a hotshot crew is responsible for itself. Crews travel nationally- you can fight fires in swampy places like Florida, get on a plane and go to a brush fire in L.A. county and then maybe to a wilderness timber fire in Idaho. You have no idea about the competence of people managing those fires and maybe have never previously fought a fire in a particular fuel type. My superintendent would never commit us to anything he didn’t verify for himself.
That obviously was not a problem here–they were on their home turf–but the mentality would be the same. Self sufficiency. The lookout situation on the fire was completely inadequate. Also, having a second or third year guy as a lookout is not o.k.
Doing slurry drops on their backfire seemed like a huge error.
Seeing pictures of Norris in his distinctive orange / yellow / white Payson hotshot hardhat (my alma mater) was brutal.
It seems they would have been well aware the fire was blowing up–there is no fire fighting to be done when that happens anymore than trying to stop a hurricane or earthquake. So they must have been thinking safety zone. I just can’t see going down into the brush like that. I wasn’t there and I’m sure they had their reasons.”
Well… at least that’s a far cry from “The big bad fire just came and got them”.
Maybe there actually is some ‘progress’ out there with regards to the TRUTH.
Those comments were from an experienced Hot Shot, so they make sense to me compared to someone from the clueless general public.
I moved this to the top because I don’t want it to get lost.
Bob Powers says
FEBRUARY 16, 2016 AT 9:18 AM
There is some very interesting non Information here from DIVS Z.
He would have been the primary supervisor involved in the decision to build that Tractor line we have talked about as the HALE MARRY plan.
There is no mention of that plan which would have been part of DIVS Z responsibility.
And a decision between both Division Supervisors.
It would be strange indeed that the OPS and the STLD would not include the actual DIVS in that plan..
So the question arises since we now know that DIV Z was in fact in full control by Marquez who to our knowledge was a well qualified DIVS.
Question—-Was there ever any HALE MARY plan?
My guess at this point is NO. They could have well just been trying to move the Cat for Line to protect structures.
Which was to late to accomplish.
MY POINT- if there was a new big plane to build new line with a tractor and GM Crew on DIV Z and DIV A Marquez would have been involved in that discussion.
There is no mention by him at least in the notes WTKTT has listed above. It is inconceivable to me that DIVS Z would not be directly involved with OPS in such a move.
Even if Marsh hatched the plan it would have involved Marquez as it was his resources being moved (Tractor) and involved both Divisions.
This would affect any Hale Mary Plan we have been discussing.
Also note Marquez herd–GM was hunkered in the Black—-
INTERESTING……….. ” were ok and hunkered in the black”
From Marquez Log.
Reply
Gary Olson says
FEBRUARY 16, 2016 AT 11:27 AM
Very good points Bob, and in fact, wouldn’t have Div Z been responsible for implementing that plan? If there was an official Hail Mary plan and not just somebody’s…what…last minute shoot from the hip cowboy tactic as opposed to an overall comprehensive strategy? Maybe Marquez has been the key all along?
What I am trying to say, is that maybe “they” cut Marquez out of the loop? Maybe they didn’t have confidence in him? Maybe there wasn’t time (they thought) to include him? Maybe the plan was to have Marsh run with it and that was why it was secretive?
I think that just because Marquez either didn’t know about it or didn’t tell the so called investigators about it doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.
All good points Gary.
Marquez was and I believe still is a DIVS on a R3 Team.
That would mean he was at least more Qualified than Marsh an his first assignment.
The Tractor and STLD Tractor were under his DIV Z.
All the movements and Assignments would have been on a Normal channel.
It seems very unlikely any one could hatch a plan with out Marquez not knowing about it or involved with it.
OPS normally works with their DIVS on all plans.
So either this is another total fucking mess or there was not a plan.
He seemed to be calling the shots on his DIV until every on started to Evacuate.
All I am saying there are some additional questions here that leave a big black hole in what the hell was going on????????
That leaves a bigger question as to the Hale Mary or if the whole thing was something else entirely. I do not think you would hatch a new plan without both Division Supervisors involved.
While they maybe hiding something no one really had any information on this plan except a few off the wall statements that have been construed as a plan on here.
Yes… all good points… but here are some things to ‘factor in’.
For all intents and purposes… SPGS1 Gary Cordes was, in fact, the DIVS for the SOUTHEAST quadrant of the Yarnell Hill Fire that included Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
Gary Cordes was NEVER ‘officially’ designated as a DIVS… and he even told ADOSH he didn’t even consider himself a ‘specialist’ at ‘structure protection’…
…but regardless… from Sunday morning onward… Gary Cordes was the one “calling the shots” down there on the SOUTHEAST quadrant.
They ( Roy Hall, et al. ) SHOULD have made that SOUTHEAST quadrant ( with the actual ‘towns’ in it ) its’ own ‘Division’ with the little curvy black lines on the map showing where it stopped/started relative to the ‘perimeter’ of the fire…
…but they didn’t.
There was simply an awful lot of ‘Mickey Mouse Management’ going down, with people just assuming other people were things they were not ( like people assuming Gary Cordes was a DIVS running the Type 1 IHCs and the Esquibel Task Force there near Yarnell… when Cordes was NOT a ‘DIVS’ ).
Correct me if wrong… but isn’t an SPGS supposed to be controlled ‘upstream’ by a DIVS?
That’s not what was going down that day.
SPGS Gary Cordes was ‘acting’ as the DIVS for the southeast quadrant of the fire… and IC Roy Hall, OPS1 Todd Abel and OPS2 Paul Musser were all ‘fine with that’.
Example: From the first thing that morning and for the ENTIRE day… Gary Cordes was assumed to be ‘in charge’ of all the following resources near Yarnell.
1. The Dozer. Cordes was the one giving him ALL of his ‘instructions’ the entire day, including when Cordes told BR Hotshot Cory Ball to (quote) “scout dozer line to protect Glen Ilah” after the fire was already coming south and hitting HIS trigger points.
2. Yes… it was Gary Cordes ( and ONLY Gary Cordes ) we even set all those ‘trigger points’ for Yarnell and the evacuation of both ALL FIRE RESOURCES and TASK FORCES and even the town itself.
Is that really something just an SPGS normally is reponsible for? I don’t think so.
Since everyone was just ‘assuming’ Gary Cordes was the ‘DIVS’ for that quadrant of the fire… I’m not sure Rance Marquez himself didn’t just assume the same thing.
The bottom line is that everyone ( fire command ) was content to just let SPGS Gary Cordes act like a DIVS down there… because “all the action” was up NORTH… and until they were FORCED to face the reality that it was actually happening… NO ONE in Fire command ( Hall, Abel or Musser ) ever really thought they would have to be dealing with Yarnell on THAT day ( Sunday ). It never even occurred to them that the fire was going to be going INTO Yarnell and Glen Ilah on THAT day… during THAT burn cycle.
So they were content to just let Gary Cordes ‘play DIVS’ down there.
All that being said… yes… it is STILL possible that if there was this ‘Hail Mary’ plan which ended up the primary reason DIVSA Marsh was ORDERING his only resource ( Granite Mountain ) to leave the safe black and ‘move’… then it is POSSIBLE that DIVSZ Rance Marquez knew about it… or was even one of the authors of ‘the plan’.
Marquez and Musser were TOGETHER there in the Sickles Road area ( doing structure protection ) at the very moment when OPS2 Musser made his infamous ‘availability check’ with Marsh and Granite Mountain at 3:42 PM.
Musser did not WAIT to make that ‘availability check’ until he was meeting with Cordes on the side of Highway 89 some 15 minutes later. Musser isn’t even seen crossing the Panebaker camera setup and headed to the ‘face-to-face’ with Cordes until 3:51 PM, and he was still about 4 minutes away from reaching Cordes there at that concrete driveway on the side of Highway 89.
Marquez does not MENTION anything about any ‘Hail Mary’ plan, or last minute plan to try and “cut emergency dozer line” to protect Yarnell or Glen Ilah…
…but neither does SPGS Gary Cordes… the one who TOLD Ball to go “scout it out”.
Not ONCE… in either his Unit Logs or in his SAIT interview notes…. or even in his ADOSH interview… does Gary Cordes ever even mention these ‘things’ that others were mentioning in their own Unit Logs about this ’emergency dozer line plan’.
Cory Ball specifically says he got ‘orders’ from Cordes to “scout that dozer line”.
Tyson Esquibel specifically mentions he was getting ‘orders’ from Cordes to send Engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch to ‘make sure Granite Mountain gets out other safely’.
Both Ball and Esquibel thought these ‘orders’ coming from SPGS Gary Cordes were important enough to mention in their own Unit Logs.
But Gary Cordes never mentions ANY of these same ‘orders’ he gave.
Not once.
So maybe we are looking at the same “don’t talk about any of that” coming from DIVZ Rance Marquez itself. Whatever knowledge Marquez might have had of this “Hail Mary” plan… and whether GM was involved… he might just be pulling the same “don’t even go there” that Gary Cordes was apparently doing in his Unit Logs AND in his ‘interviews’.
“If we don’t talk about it… then it didn’t happen”?
So DIV Z was some where in between Cordes and Marsh but Cordes had no identified DIV and under the normal chain of command Marquez should have been over Cordes as he was the DIVS for Z which ended some where.
The plan for the Tractor would have been in DIV Z at its starting point.
Marquez should still have known what was going on and been in charge of Cordes.
SPGS was still responsible for his assigned section of line but still should have answered to Marquez. There is a big black hole here that a lot fell into or nothing was there to begin with.
Again we are still guessing there was some kind of Hale Mary there is no absolute proof as WTKTT always lectures us on.
There is no one between or equal to the DIVS and OPS on the line.
Cordes position was below the DIVS position although he may have been giving supervision to the Tractor and other recourses. His position is equal to a STLD or the old Sector Boss. Assigned a section of line with Engines, Tractors, and Crews
An intermix off all or a group of Engines or Crews or Tractors.
For those not in wild land fire– A Sector may have up to 3 different resources there are up to 3 Sectors in a DIVISION. The Planning on this fire had not broken it down that far but a SPGS is similar to a Sector designation or STLD position.
Structure Protection Group Supervisor—He had several assigned Engines and the Tractor under his position but he was working in DIV Z —-My conclusion.
I just do not see any concealment of facts going on here just trying to catch up with a fire that is out preforming the expectations.
I said Some time ago and still believe GM Marsh decided to get off the mountain and they could no longer go to the trucks so they decided or Marsh decided to move to the BSR and call from there for transport.
Cordes knew where they were going based on the few things said on the Radio that he herd nothing more nothing less. The Scout for the possible Tractor line was entirely seperiate from GM/Marsh move.
A Hand Crew that late in the game could not have built line to save the Structures
Threatened by the Fire that was already in Yarnell. With or without a Tractor.
Well…those are really some great summaries from both Bob and WTKTT and I consider myself one who is not in fire since as I keep saying I never fought fire except as a hotshot and never worked in an overhead position, especially in ICS so even what I do know always comes out in Large Fire Organization thinking rather than ICS.
And yes, I suppose we are beating a dead horse here, and there very well not have been a Hail Mary Plan, I don’t have a vested interest in one. I guess the only reason I was/am hoping there was one, is that that fact would add a mitigating factor/casual factor to the list to assign responsibility to where it should be rather than leave it all on Marsh.
So Bob….you have probably said this before, but if there was no plan and Marsh just decided to pull his crew off the mountain, why do you think he did it? To get them to the rally point? To help with evacuations on his own? To reengage the fire on his own? To get them off the mountain so they could be watered up and resupplied? To put on a show of being in the game for whatever press or others may be watching to look good to the City Council? Some other plan or idea of his own making?
I am going with the Basic simple conclusion.
Marsh decided the crew was thru for the day they could not do any more work toward the fire as it was moving and would end up compromising their line.
Their trucks had to be moved it was to late to fall back to them.
They could wait out the fire in the black or move to a location to be picked up. They or Marsh chose the what he thought was the fastest route to a pick up location. Down to BSR call the trucks and get picked up. His first objective was to BSR then they could decide to sit there or call for pick up.
Any of us who have had HS crews know as do you Gary there is nothing a hand crew can do to save structures when a fire is as close as this on was to them. Most crews are used 24 hours in advance to build line and increase structure safe zones way before the fire gets there.
I still contend they were getting out like every one else they just had to walk some distance to a pick up location. I truly do not believe Marsh thought the Fire was going to burn that fast across the Flat toward the BSR. One of many poor choices. Lack of situational awareness.
I said a Long long time ago the crew decided it was end of shift stay or leave the black. They had a few choices but none that put them at a road to be picked up and at the same time offered them a SZ to wait out what ever happened the BSR was the choice.
The other glaring thing if this so called plan needed a crew Blue Ridge was right there. They did not use BR for any thing after the fire blew and evidently said nothing about some Hail Mary plan.
My conclusion has as much probability as the other conclusion there was a Hail Mary Plan that involved GM and the Tractor.
The tractor had a BR squad boss with it do you believe Brown or Frisby would not have had communications with Ball?
Ball made sure he pulled the Radio out of the Tractor before he left it.
dose that sound like he anticipated doing more line the fire was going to hell and his crew was headed to the restaurant.
Lot of words but a simple deduction they moved knowing they probably would not get to the Restaurant until almost 1800.
They forgot all the basics and moved off the Mountain that was their only plan. All this moving to redeploy was Willis and his plan for heroes. It was Gods will.
What the Fuck Over. 10-19 and 10-7
Well…all of that makes perfect sense. I think this all comes down to two camps and then two camps within those two camps. And the way I worded that is confusing. So here is my break down.
Camp One – Eric Marsh HAD to order his crew to leave the black because it wasn’t safe to remain where they were and the BSR offered the safety for the crew the black did not.
Which of course I think is ridiculous but I can certainly see why that appeals to everyone who wants to absolve Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed and by extension the rest of the crew in any blame for their own deaths.
Camp Two – Eric Marsh CHOSE to order his crew to leave the black for some reason other than they were not safe where they were and Jesse Steed CHOSE to comply with that order..
Camp Two A- There was a Hail Mary Plan, which simply may have been a plan for the crew to reengage the fire in some manner by moving towards town that may have involved others or simply could have been something Marsh wanted to do on his own.
Camp Two B – What Bob just said.
Of course I am in Camp Two and I am hoping for more information to determine whether I am in Camp Two A…or B.
Like I said earlier, it really doesn’t matter to me except as an advocate for the crew from the beginning, if Camp Two A is correct, well then it gives us another contributing casual factor and someone to share the blame with Eric Marsh in the history books.
None of that however, will change the fact that the primary casual factor does still rests with Marsh and Jesse Steed and always will. Bummer.
I have however, given up on directly blaming Willis for the catastrophic decision to move the crew to town. I know think that it is more likely others where involved with that rather than Willis.
So now I just blame Willis and the Prescott City Council and the culture of the structural Prescott Fire Department indirectly for the deaths of the crew.
But I believer that is enough for me to proclaim all of them share the blame for what happened to the crew, even if there wasn’t a direct cause and effect relationship.
Really good discussion.
I hope to clear some stuff up………and if I’m wrong, hope to be corrected and learn something myself.
A DIVS is the same level in ICS as a Group Supervisor. The duty position under the ICS system is Division/Group Supervisor. I’ve only worked with Structure Protection Specialists in the past (STPS.) As far as I’m concerned a DIVS is the same level as Group Supervisor, in this case ‘Structure’ Group Supervisor. But……….after reviewing my NWCG charts, I don’t find the Structure Group Supervisor position, just a Specialist. If I’m correct then Marquez and Cordes were actually in the same level under OPs, neither was technically the ‘boss’ of the other. Fun, huh?
RTS. Paging RTS. Straighten me out, older brother.
Woodsman
And if I’m correct, Marquez was possibly ‘pigeon holed’ or added to the work around the structures in Glen Illa which now had not 1 but 2 equal supervisors, technically speaking. Nothing like doubling up on supervisors. sarc
Strange, especially as Bob correctly pointed out, Marquez was a qualified experienced DIVS and NOT on his first assignment in that role.
………and the wheel keeps turning round and round……
Woodsman
And doubled up on OPS as well was Cordes really a SPGS or a STPS
I believe he said he was not a qualified DIVS. Ill have to go back and look at what WTKTT said in his notes on the interview. To my knowledge there is no Structure Protection Group Supervisor.
there is only a the STPS or STLD.
If you go to the make up of teams there is only Division Supervisors every one else is under them. OPS Has direct contact with FBAN and Safety Officers who work under the IC and for the Line.
Marques was ordered by the IC to fill his needs why would he end up out of the system and on his own?
OK reading Marques Log he says he met Cordes one of the Structure Groups and then later he talked with Structure Group two Willis.
So we have two structure groups and Marques was contacting them
to figure out his DIV Z make any since?
Maybe some understanding.
He had a big DIV and Marsh had a fairly small DIV comparatively speaking.
Marques also had a STLD Tractor with him as he noted a STL (T) in his notes.
I need to look at the resource orders again to try and understand all of this. I want to see what position Cordes was ordered as.
Agreed, DIV Z was large and DIV A had only 1 resource – GMIHC with a supervisor who was actually the same crew’s superintendent.
Woodsman
WOOPS I screwed up on the STLD (T)
(T) is trainee I believe not Tractor after I thought about it.
Strange way to identify a Trainee or Tractor with a T only
Just love ICS.
Reply to Woodsman post on
February 16, 2016 at 8:03 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I need to look at the resource orders again
>> to try and understand all of this. I want to
>> see what position Cordes was ordered as.
You won’t find it.
You just touched on one of the long-standing ‘mysteries’ in the ‘investigation’ itself.
Gary Cordes’ actual ‘Resource Order’ has always been conspicuously MISSING from the official ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document that was SUPPOSED to contain ALL Yarnell related Resource Orders.
But the DISPATCH logs do seem to PROVE that Gary Cordes accepted an order for an ‘STPS’ ( and not a DIVS )… even though he would later tell ADOSH ( quote ).
“I am NOT a structure protection specialist”.
See a longer post about this ( and the actual Dispatch Log entries ) up above posted as a new ‘parent’ comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-325990
Bob,
Agreed. In order to be classified as a STPS, you must be a qualified DIVS or ICT3.
Woodsman
See the following new ‘parent comment’ above about this.
It contains Gary Cordes’ actually testimony to ADOSH where he tells them he was a qualified ‘DIVS’… but in the same breath he also says ( quote )…
“I am NOT a structure protection specialist”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-325990
Was he even a Qualified DIVS. And understood his responsibilities. Very questionable?????????
Reply to Bob Powers post on
February 17, 2016 at 9:37 am
>> Bob Powers asked…
>>
>> Was he even a Qualified DIVS. And
>> understood his responsibilities.
>> Very questionable?????????
All he told ADOSH was…
“I’ve worked my way up to the level of division sup, um, over the years.”
…but there is no evidence anywhere in his ADOSH interview that he had to present his RED CARD to PROVE what he was saying.
In other interviews… the ADOSH investigators DID ask to see the person’s RED CAD, no matter what they were ‘telling’ them. They even made one person go out to their truck and GET it…. so they could SEE it and what ‘qualifications’ were really on it.
Not so with Gary Cordes.
They (apparently) just ‘took his word for it’.
Don’t forget… this is the same guy who thought the Boulder Springs Ranch was 20-30 acres in size.
He was WILDLY wrong. The cleared area of the Boulder Springs Ranch was only 3 to 3 1/2 acres.
Woodsman,
Here is a link to a NWCG document about the Structure Protection Specialist Task Book with a li k for the Task Book embedded within it.
http://www.nwcg.gov/publications/position-taskbooks/311-68
It’s pretty vague on chain of command but near the end, there are a few references to notifying Operations or Branch Directors for any changes or needs.
So, based on this, it appears the STPS was on the same level as a DIVS, if I’m reading this right.
Hope this helps.
This is under STPS Task Book Competency and Behavior:
Make appropriate decisions based on analysis of gathered information.
26. Determine need for assistance. • Identify need for additional assistance by monitoring work progress or based on reports from subordinates. • Coordinate with Operations Section Chief or Branch Director and request assistance according to procedures discussed in briefing. • Notify Operations Section Chief when resources are moved or shared between divisions/groups, or excess to operational needs. W 27. Prioritize assignments base.”
COORDINATE WITH AND NOTIFY OPERATIONS AND BRANCH DIRECTORS WHEN RESOURCES ARE MOVED OR SHARED BETWEEN DIVISIONS / GROUPS
RTS,
Thanks! Now show me any section from the Structure Protection Group Supervisor task book. Wait, it’s a trick question……………..THERE IS NO SUCH TASK BOOK……..but there is a Structure Protection Specialist task book.
It sure would be easier if they used the correct title for positions.
I wasn’t trying to catch you or anything, just working it out for myself. Thanks for the help. Oh, it also saves me a phone call tomorrow.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Hearken back to your ICS training. Recall that there is a Division / Group Supervisor (DIVS) and a Structure Protection Specialist (STPS), however there is NOT a Structure Protection Group Supervisor.
Recall that Divisions are GEOGRAPHICAL in nature and Groups are established to divide the incident into FUNCTIONAL areas of operation. Groups are composed of resources assembled to PERFORM A SPECIAL FUNCTION not necessarily within a single geographic division. GROUPS, WHEN ACTIVATED, ARE LOCATED BETWEEN BRANCHES AND RESOURCES IN THE OPERATIONS SECTION, according to the Glossary of Wildland Fire Terminology.
So then, a Division Supervisor is in charge of a defined piece of ground – geographically – from Point A to Point B or something similar.
A Group Supervisor, on the other hand, is in charge of a specific tactical GROUP, separate from the geographical bounds of a Division, for a specific mission, e.g. Structure Group, T and E Species Group, or some other touchy-feely mission.
I think it would have been best for the YH Fire IMT’s to designate the three (3) YH Fire STPS as specific GROUP SUPERVISORS as such rather than as general STPS, for both supervision and chain of command purposes. Much cleaner.
Typically, the Structure Group is well outside the fire perimeter on its separate mission of preparing for structure defense and they work for the Structure Group Supervisor.
Unless, predetermined in briefings and such, the problems arise when the fire escapes Divisional boundaries and burns into the once-isolated Structure Group area-of-responsibility (AOR).
All manner of confusion and unsafe tactics and strategy prevail otherwise. In other words, it’s a royal goat f**k if this is a reactionary decision, instead of a predetermined one.
Fire Order #3 – Base all actions on current and EXPECTED behavior of the fire. This was the case on the June 1990 Dude Fire, very similar in many ways to the YH Fire.
Who is in charge of whom at this point? The overrun Structure Group AOR is now enveloped by the fire and technically under the supervision of the DIVISION Supervisor UNLESS it was previously discussed and determined to be still under the GROUP Supervisor’s responsibility.
As a DIVS, I’m sure you can imagine the clusterf**k.
RTS,
Thanks! A double-cluster……and a half, for sure.
Kind of a tangent: I checked the glossary at nwcg for several items of clarification. No Structure Group definition just Specialist (although I know what a group is) When looking around a bit I looked at the definition of Safety Zone. It has a link for ‘deployment zone’ but it’s a ‘dead link’. Tightening the chin strap on my tin foil helmet now. I CAN’T STAND THE TERM “DEPLOYMENT ZONE”
Woodsman
RTS:
It can get even more complicated than that…NIMO anyone? Not making a judgment whether they are ‘good’ or ‘bad’ but they certainly can add a whole nuther layer of cluster….in my experience,
Woodsman
One more thing: good point on the ‘moving of resources’ responsibility in the task book. That jumped out at me too. It’s also a DIVS responsibility.
Woodsman
RTS,
My page worked. Thanks.
Yeah, I referenced the latest PMS308 and the Structure Protection Group Specialist is adjacent to the DIVS on the flow chart with an arrow pointing from the DIVS to the STPS. Looks like they are the same level under OPs OR the DIVS reports to the STPS…….which doesn’t make any sense to me at all. I’ll call my fire manager tomorrow and get a firm answer from him or the incident command center. The flow chart indicates the qualification level by position, required training, and the required fitness level.
Do you agree there is no ‘Structure Protection GROUP Supervisor’? But there IS a ‘Structure Protection SPECIALIST’?
Woodsman
I think I am way behind like 23 years and no book to refer to.
Some positions have gone beyond my training in ICS.
In 94 I do not think we had got to Structure Protection positions
As that was brought in with the City units when they accepted ICS.
I am relying on you guys now and Thanks.
No sweat, Bob. Rest assured when FEMA takes over it’s all going to change again anyway…and I’ll be right there with you. Although I hear NWCG is not going down without a fight.
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/publications/pms308.pdf
Woodsman
I believe a Branch director refers to a DIVS.
All Fire line positions are under the Operations Branch.
Is there any organizational pyramid on this it is quite confusing.
Nope. See the chart:
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/publications/pms308.pdf
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Your image in this link is way TOO BLURRY even when magnified.
I want to add this in the for what it is worth category. The wildland firefighting organization that I knew was highly structured, controlled, organized, disciplined, at least after there was a fire team in place and line supervisors.
So I want to emphasize how unusual I find a lot of how that Sunday afternoon went down. It isn’t conceivable to me that the kind of movements could have been happening without an organized plan with a lot of people in the loop.
That was one thing I liked about wildland firefighting as a hotshot. There were boxes, and you knew where you were supposed to be and what you were supposed to be doing and so did everyone else,
And I felt like I belonged
I felt so strong
As I walked on
There was rhythm
And there was order
There was a balance
There was a flow
By the River, Bob Seger
Something is wrong (Thank you Captain Obvious) here. So…WTF…Over?
Yea… but how many times did you show up to a rodeo where the entire fire command was just a bunch of retired guys ‘thrown together’ the night before… half of whom didn’t even show up the next day… with the IC just sitting in an air conditioned classroom with NO RADIO and only worried about what the paperwork for TOMORROW was going to look like?
You provide for safety first and Cover your ass. You do not hang your self out to dry.
In my day we had Firemen who were supervisors on their own Forest with tons of experience For a full supervision of the first 48 hours.
The only time we ever ended up in the situation of Yarnell was on fires outside the FS/State jurisdictions like counties where we provided assistance.
The people on Yarnell seemed to have the qualifications but lacked the ability to form a plan and carry it out What was their objective?
That is a really easy one to answer.
NEVER and until the Yarnell Hill Fire
NEVER EVEN HEARD OF IT OR KNEW IT HAPPENED
I also think it is a really bad idea and a lousy way to save money, Arizona Division of Forestry.
I am aware of old guys working ADD filling in, in support roles on the periphery, non-essential essential people,
1. Supply
2. Logistics
3. Safety
4. Communications
5. Public Information Officers
Line, Command, Operations, No fucking way! Why do you think they are retired in the first place?
It’s because the system decided they had outlived their usefulness and they (as a group) were NOT reliable anymore. Of course there are exception, but the system doesn’t try to evaluate who is used up (burned out) and who is not. They just assign a number the average person burns out and go with that. It used to be 55 for all Public Safety Employees which is law enforcement and fire.
It’s the same thing the government (GSA) does with vehicles, they know at and beyond a certain mileage those vehicles are going to be more trouble and cost more than they are worth…so they are sold as surplus. It is purely a business decision.
So yes, knowing you, you know all of this and you are pimping me, the former insider who knows how the system works forward and backward and every which way and who is not afraid to tell it exactly like it is because I only have to worry about keeping my dear wife from kicking me to the curb, everyone else can line up and kiss my ass.
So here is the bottom line. The Yarnell Hill Fire was being run by a bunch of burned out, used up, broken down, has beens who were not still in their previous jobs because the FEDERAL government considered them to be unreliable and potentially walking talking marginally functioning TRAIN WRECKS looking for a place to happen….and guess what, they found it on the Yarnell Hill Fire. The chickens came home to roost.
Why do you think I don’t have any government issued guns anymore and my badge say’s RETIRED on it instead of a number…they don’t trust me to be able to do the right thing anymore, or at least the chance I will do the wrong thing is too high for them to accept. I am not an acceptable risk to the people of the United States anymore. And neither were those stupid fucks running the Yarnell Hill Fire.\
There. I have done my duty and fulfilled my role on this thread.
Whoops., got lost there on my tirade. The number for mandatory retirement was moved to 57 a few years ago, but beyond that, the federal government considers all of those who were rode hard and put away wet too many times over a lifetime of high stress work…are now washed up and fit only for the pasture and maybe as fill ins for some jobs where they can’t hurt themselves or anyone else. For example, retired Special Agents can get hired as instructors at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, but even that has a time limit of no more than 4 years and requires a congressional waiver. Guess what. The fucking federal government is NOT NICE. They don’t have this policy because they are NICE employers who want to give away special benefits because they are NICE. They do it because people in those jobs are not worth the risk they bring to the job after age 57….no exceptions. It is MANDATORY retirement.
OK…in case I didn’t make myself clear. The Arizona Division of Forestry got EXACTLY what they PAID for on the Yarnell Hill Fire. No more, no less.
Reply to Woodsman post on February 15, 2016 at 8:30 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I would personally love to know just what the ‘argument(s)’ were about
>> that day between Marquez (?) and Marsh.
Here is exactly how Rance Marquez himself described the ‘argument’ to ADOSH…
It really was just a ‘misunderstaning’.
Marquez showed up down there having radio problems, couldn’t get ahold of Marsh at first… and then started talking to the newly arrived Air Attack ‘Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark’ just to try and find out what they were seeing from up above.
Somewhere in there… Marsh overheard Marquez talking to Warbis/Lenmark on the A2G channel and thought he was developing a ‘plan’ without consulting with him… and that Marquez was trying to take ‘real estate’ away from him.
So he starts ragging on Marquez about that. Marquez also tells ADOSH he thought Marsh was trying to push a ‘bad piece of ground’ on him.
Just TURF war stuff, really.
Q2 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
Q3 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator
A = Rance Marquez, Division Zulu at Yarnell, Sunday, June 30, 2013
———————————————————————————-
759 Q2: Okay. So was uh, let me ask uh, let me ask a straight out question. Was – was
760 your conversation amicable?
761
762 A: Uh, probably as well as a hotshot sup can be.
763
764 Q2: Hey man, wait a minute. Old hots 764 hots says now he’s going to take offense at that
765 Rance.
766
767 Q3: You’re good for both in here.
768
769 A: I get it from both of you. Yeah, but um, I would say it was – it wasn’t exactly
770 cheery and rosy, it was – it was direct. It was uh, Eric, again, he had thought – he
771 had heard over Air Attack, he thought I was taking over a portion of the division.
772
773 Q2: Okay.
774
775 A: And I had to restate, no, I was not taking over – I was not assigning a division
776 break. I said that on at least on two separate occasions and had to back them up.
777
778 Q2: Yeah. Okay. Uh, and um, at – well, that – that was what I was uh, hoping to get
779 – get at uh, it – it – and so, let me see if I can say it another way. Did Eric felt
780 like you were encroaching on his – his ground at least at first, is that correct?
781
782 A: I would say that. That he – he felt I was going – I was uh, I was formulating a
783 plan without consulting him.
784
785 Q2: Okay. Got you.
786
787 A: And when – when my intent was to figure out what was going on from Air Attack
788 and then formulate a plan after consulting him, but he did not respond
789 immediately.
790
791 Q2: Okay. Okay. Dave, I’ll turn it back to you.
792
793 Q3: No, uh, no, thank you. That was uh, yeah, Rance, that we were – we had in – in
794 some of our other conversations heard was that the conversations between the two
795 of you was not amicable. Did uh, want to say that so I wanted to invite you – can
796 you – can you tell me some of the words that were – were used uh, in uh, that –
797 that Eric was saying to you?
798
799 A: Uh…
800
801 Q3: I mean…
802
803 A: …he was just – he got on me a little bit for uh, taking over division without
804 consulting him and I was like I had – had to respond several times that I did not
805 take over division. I had not assigned a division break. I had not – it – it – from
806 my opinion, from my standpoint, I felt Eric was trying to push a bad piece of
807 ground on me and that he wanted to work back towards the heel to the fire some
808 more which I couldn’t see what he was working on back on the other side of the
809 hill on um, so I didn’t really have a understanding of where the fire was behind
810 him, towards the…
811
812 Q: Congress?
813
814 A: …towards the Congress side, how far back the fire was at that time.
815
816 Q3: Okay.
—————————————————————————-
FYI – I have been working with Dr. Ted Putnam on the history of the Battlement Creek Fire for the past several months and he is in the process of finalizing an amazing article on the subject. This has been a real honor for me because Dr. Putnam was a sector boss on that fire and he was in a position to see and experience so much more than I was as a hotshot grunt (crew sawyer).
Dr. Putnam’s article is going to be of significant importance to the history of wildland firefighters because the Serious Accident Investigation of the Battlement Creek Fire (their SAIR) is a seriously flawed document that is full of lies that was written by very skillful liars. That fact is important because the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride and all of the official training pertaining to that fire is based on those lies and subsequent cover-up.
And Dr. Putnam has given me permission to publish his article as a standalone chapter in my fabulous, very exciting and much anticipated book, “Betrayed by Our Fire Gods” that is awaiting being published.
Thanks to my old and much smarter acquaintance (remember, his crew worked the day shift on the Murdoch Basin Fire high up in the Wasatch Mountains while my crew pulled the night shift and got snowed in on the fire line) RTS for putting Dr. Putman and I together for this very important project.
Oh…and one more thing. Am I a whore for advancing my own interests in this format? The BLM and I both decided that indeed I am a whore a long time ago, the only thing anyone has to argue with me about ever since then…is exactly how much has to be to paid for my services. So…
P.S., And between what I saw and experienced from below the burnout as a hotshot grunt, and what Dr. Putnam saw and experienced from above the burnout as overhead; we saw and experienced EVERYTHING, so we FUCKIN’ NAILED IT!
This bitch, http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=6778f169-d61e-47f9-ae5f-3faf24160bc9
is finally going down in flames after 40 years of lies.
Thank the Creator for the explosion of social media, John Dougherty and Investigative Media so it didn’t take another 40 years to expose the lies of this bitch,
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=4c98c51d-102c-4e04-86e0-b8370d2beb27&forceDialog=0
bitchin’ photo though. God Bless America!
Whoops, forgot to add “This bitch (non gender specific)”
I have been thinking about my ongoing and lopsided debate with Dale over the meaning of words. I say lopsided because Dale is truly a man of very few words. I believe however, that his opinion is really important however, because it probably represents a large percentage of the rank and file wildland firefighters who are on the line today. And if we can’t convince them that what we say here is true, than this really is just a theoretical exercise in futility.
So anyway…in that process I came up with the following three words that I feel are important to the process used by Marsh when he ordered the crew to follow his ribbon down that chute at the time they did.
I think it is very easy to understand why Steed eventually followed those orders. Steed had a young family at home depending on him to bring home a paycheck and provide health insurance and the private job market for his skill set especially in Prescott, which is a haven for really bitchy old people who think they not only own the world, it owes them everything. And he didn’t want to move his family to Phoenix which I can fully understand since I had to move my family there twice, for more than 8 years.
Phoenix really sucks unless you have a ton of money and then it is probably okay. And to make matters worse, Marsh had a history of coming down hard on anyone who disagreed with him and Marsh was already looking to take Steed down a peg or two…or more, but forgive me…I digress yet once again.
So…I think Marsh had a
choice (the act of choosing : the act of picking or deciding between two or more possibilities)
whether or not to order his crew out of the black, and he made a conscious
decision (a choice that you make about something after thinking about it : the result of deciding)
to do so and that decision was a catastrophic
mistake (to make a wrong judgment about something)
but it was certainly not an
accident! (an event that is not planned or intended : an event that occurs by chance)
And in the process of mulling this over and sleeping on it, I had a revelation that I want to share with you, because as I have said many times, all of you are among my closest friends and confidants.
I am currently writing a book about the Yarnell Hill Fire and the death of the crew and many of you are as well and this is a book that we WILL finish. Except it is not called, “The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighter”, and it is named, “The Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation”.
Our publisher is John Dougherty and the publishing company that is publishing our work is called “Investigative Media.” The only really big difference is our book is being published in dribs and drabs one paragraph and chapter at a time AND it is being published with all of the notes, random thoughts and rough drafts included so the world can track the thought process everyone used and eventually be the judge of our collective work.
THIS book will eventually be recognized as the ultimate authority on the Yarnell Hill Fire and the death of the crew. All of the other books on this subject will just be so much drivel to sell to the ignorant masses.
And my final thought for the day. Someone accused us of just repeating the same things over and over again the other day in an email to me. And to that I reply, ya…so what?
How many times did we hear, and still do, that the big bad fire is responsible for the deaths of the crew? And that became the widely accepted story and is on track to be carved in stone at the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park.
We all know that if you repeat a lie long enough and enough times, it eventually becomes the truth. So we have been put in a position that we have to keep repeating the TRUTH long enough and enough times if there is ever going to be any chance of overcoming, “The Great Lie.” So…
Reply to Gary Olson post on February 15, 2016 at 1:58 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I think it is very easy to understand why Steed eventually followed those
>> orders. Steed had a young family at home depending on him to bring
>> home a paycheck and provide health insurance and the private job market
>> for his skill set especially in Prescott, which is a haven for really bitchy old
>> people who think they not only own the world, it owes them everything.
>> And he didn’t want to move his family to Phoenix which I can fully
>> understand since I had to move my family there twice, for more than 8 years.
I still don’t think enough has been said about the difficult position Jesse Steed found himself in that afternoon.
None of the following is being offered up as any kind of ‘excuse’ for his own bad decision making that day… but it certainly deserves a its own ‘section’ in the chapter entitled “Human Factors” in any ‘book’ about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Marsh had been promoted to ‘Division Supervisor’ that day… one of the only times in his life he was wearing that badge.
Marsh’s ONLY ‘resource’ under his command was his OWN Hotshot Crew.
Darrell Willis has admitted he was specifically ‘grooming’ Eric Marsh to be his replacement as the Prescott Wildland Division Chief. The same position Eric Marsh said he wanted some years earlier when the original Prescott Wildland Division Chief Duane Steinbrink decided to retire. Marsh got ‘passed over’ for that job, at that time, and they brought “Mr. double/triple dipper” Darrell Willis out of retirement for that 90k a year job instead of giving it to Marsh.
Steed had taken over the GM Crew and was the one who had signed the ‘certification’ document for 2013, instead of Marsh.
But now Marsh was BACK as Superintendent. So some other ‘event’ was going to have to happen now for Steed to just get right back where he had been and be the designated Superintendent for Granite Mountain.
Marsh was going to have to have another bike accident… or finally ‘move up’ to the Wildland Division Chief spot in order for Jesse to be the Superintendent again… and Darrell Willis was still happy ‘double dipping’ at 90k a year… option two was gonna take a while.
But even if/when Marsh ‘moved up’ to Willis’ job… Steed knew very well that this same Marsh guy was STILL going to be ‘his boss’.
So there Steed stood, up on a mountain top on June 30, 2013… knowing all the following things…
1. This DIVS guy who is trying to force me to do something isn’t just some DIVS that you can give the finger to and hope you never work under him again on another fire. He was both Steed’s CURRENT and FUTURE boss.
2. Whatever confrontation happens here… it could either ruin his chances at ever being Supt. again, OR ruin his realtionship as Supt. when the same guy becomes his ‘Wildland Division Chief’ in the not too distant future… or BOTH.
So it still absolutely has to be factored in that this ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew Superintendent’ that day ( Jesse Steed ) was being ordered to do something by a ‘Division Supervisor’ ( Eric Marsh ) that was his BOSS TWO TIME OVER.
BOTH his CURRENT and FUTURE boss.
I actually believe that if, by chance, Rance Marquez had become ‘Divison A’ that day… and Marsh had been given ‘Division Z’ instead… that things would have turned out differently that day.
Now the ‘DIVS’ who had some hair-brained idea about trying to beat a dynamic, fast moving wildfire into town… and do it by moving through an explosive-fuel-filled blind box canyon… WOULD have been someone that Jesse Steed could have said “Are you out of your fucking mind?” to… and not suffered any repercussions. Especially not after waiting just about 45 minutes to see what an absolute STUPID and FATAL that ‘plan’ really was.
I wonder if write Ken Nolan ( Blackhawk down ) has also seen the obvious ‘point of attack’ here, from a storytelling point of view.
I wonder if Nolan’s script actually tries to “tell the story” from Jesse’s point of view?
Given all the politics and the influences going on that day… it really would be a great way to “tell the story” and at least try to shed some light on the decision being made… and what influenced them.
I don’t care if Marsh ‘asked’ him 20 times to “come down… and through that canyon”.
Jesse should have said NO.
Yes, you are right about everything you said, but I especially liked this part, “I still don’t think enough has been said about the difficult position Jesse Steed found himself in that afternoon.” Amen! Pass the ammunition!
If you were going to write a script… and ‘dramatize’ what happened… then you can forget ALL that bullshit in the SAIR about “What did they know, when, and what options were available to them”.
The ‘music rises in the background’ moment will be that moment right after Marsh said something like the following to Steed over the GM intra-crew…
“I’m tired of arguing with you. Esse Quam Videri your ass DOWN here… didi mau most ricky tick. Do you COPY?”
Steed was not in the habit of HIDING any of his exchanges with Marsh from the rest of the crew. We KNOW that. We can see/hear for ourselves him letting the volume be up on his radio whenever he was talking to Marsh so that the rest of the crew could hear it.
We also know that it was NOT unusual for other on the crew to feel like they could openly be sarcastic behind Marsh’s back. In just that first 9 second video we see/hear Marsh telling Steed “I could just feel it, ya know”… and then we WATCH the FF right near Steed say something sarcastic, spit on the ground with emphasis, and the FFs near him ( and also near Steed ) feeling free to LAUGH at the sarcasm ( because they knew Jesse hadn’t pressed his transmit button yet and Marsh wouldn’t have heard them laughing ).
So there DID come a moment when Marsh ORDERED Steed to “Esse Quam Videri your ass DOWN here… didi mau most ricky tick”…. and Steed had to turn to the men… knowing they heard that.
If there is going to be a ‘FILLUM’… you can be that ‘moment’ is going to be in it… and I don’t know who will be writing the SCORE for the ‘FILLUM’… but you can also bet that is the ‘moment the music rises’.
Because THAT was the ‘fateful moment’. Right there.
Wouldn’t suprise me if the storyboard for that moment already says…
– Steed doesn’t respond right away to Marsh’s ORDER.
– Steed turns to face the crew.
– CUT – closeup of Steed’s eyes, looking at the crew.
– ROUND ROBIN CUTS – The eyes of the crew looking back at Steed.
– No one says anything. All we hear is the wind.
– CUT – Mid shots of the crews.
– Someone spits on the ground ( again )… but no one laughs this time.
– Slowly… some of the men start nodding.
– CUT – Back to closeup of Jesse.
– CUT – View of the men from Jesse’s POV.
– None of the men say a word… but each one slowly nods at Jesse.
– CUT – Midshot of Steed.
– He presses transmit… then quietly says…
“Allright. We’re coming down”.
And we know how the movie ends.
You missed one of your callings…I think.
Great points, WTKTT about the potential pressure on Steed.
I would personally love to know just what the ‘argument(s)’ were about that day between Marquez (?) and Marsh. What was the deal that made an overhead just ‘leave the AO’,,,abandon his post/assignment? Did someone see the writing on the wall and haul ass outta there? Or am I not reading into that correctly at all?
Woodsman
I think you have brought up a very good point that frankly has not been discussed much, if at all on this thread. I mean…the fact that Div A and Div Z argued has been discussed a long time ago, but I don’t think it has ever been discussed specific to whether Marquez left because he could see something bad happening with where Marsh was going? I think we are going to have to bring in our Way Back Machine on this one…WTKTT.
In any case, I think we should put Marquez under the Kleig lights again and at least call him out on not telling us what he knows and why he abandoned his assignment, which honestly, I didn’t know a person could actually do and not vaporize or something?
Reply to Woodsman post on February 15, 2016 at 8:30 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Great points, WTKTT about the potential pressure on Steed.
It was a VERY unusual situation.
To have a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Superintendent’ and his crew being the ONLY resource assigned to a ‘Division Supervisor’ who was not only his CURRENT boss, but the man who he knew was going to CONTINUE to be his ‘boss’ even after he ascended to the full time Superintendent spot.
It really wasn’t just a case where a Hotshot Supt. could tell the DIVS to ‘fuck off’, and then talk about it later with management. The person Steed needed to say “fuck off” to WAS his own, personal ‘management’ ( now and into the future ) with the power to directly affect his JOB status.
I think Steed tried to let Marsh know he wasn’t buying Marsh’s incessant “Esse quam videri” bullshit that afternoon… and that it really doesn’t matter whether you ‘seem’ or whether you “be”… if you end up DEAD.
But that probably just pissed Marsh off even more… and led to him pulling rank and ORDERING Steed to “Esse quam videri your ass DOWN here… didi mau…most ricky tick”.
Throw in the fact that you also now have a DIVS trying to get a Type 1 IHCS to do something and the entire conversation is taking place on a PRIVATE Intra-crew radio channel ( with no OPS supervision or input )… and you (obviously) have a recipe for disaster.
When SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley was talking to that room of FFs on June 20, 2013, one of them stood up and said… “Whenever resources are moving on a fire… it affects everyone. I think the fact that this entire ‘risky move’ was ‘negotiated’ between a DIVS and an IHCS over a private Intra-Crew radio channel contributed to the disaster. There was no chance for any other input from peers or other management… or even the proper awareness it was taking place”.
Mike Dudley said ( in public )… “I agree”.
Again… there is NO EXCUSE for what Steed eventually agreed to do… and put the lives of 17 other men on the line just to preserve HIS own personal employment/career situation ( because ( as Gary said ) “Phoenix really sucks” )… but it is not every day you are actually presented with career/life altering decisions and I believe that has to remain factored in here.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I would personally love to know just what the ‘argument(s)’
>> were about that day between Marquez (?) and Marsh.
The reader’s digest version: Just a simple TURF war.
Marsh thought Marquez was ‘taking territory’ away from him, and Marquez thought Marsh was trying to stick him with a “piece of shit ground”.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> What was the deal that made an overhead just ‘leave the AO’,,,
>> abandon his post/assignment? Did someone see the writing on
>> the wall and haul ass outta there? Or am I not reading into that
>> correctly at all?
Well… according to both Marquez’s Unit Log AND his ADOSH interview… Marquez never felt he ‘abandoned’ anything.
His Unit Log says it was Marsh himself who suggested he just start doing ‘point protection’… which is exactly what Marquez then spent the rest of the afternoon focusing on.
The ‘Division Break’ that Marsh and Marquez finally agreed to was the old-grader itself… but the ‘Division Line’ being negotiated was actually on a NORTH / SOUTH boundary, and not EAST / WEST.
In other words… what Marsh and Marquez actually AGREED to ( eventually ) was the everything WEST of a NORTH/SOUTH line drawn through the old-grader location should be considered ‘Division A’… and everything EAST of that same NORTH/SOUTH line ( including the Sickles Ranch Road area, Yarnell proper, and the Glen Ilah subdivision ) should be considered to be in ‘Division Z’.
So after Marquez went back to the ICP and ‘reported’ to OPS2 Paul Musser, Marquez then did NOT just ‘disappear’.
He got actively involved in the ‘structure protection’ effort there in the Sickles Road area… which ( according to the agreed upon Division boundary with Marsh ) was was a perfectly ‘legitimate’ thing for him to be doing.
That’s what Marquez actually thought… and said so to ADOSH.
He did NOT DISAPPEAR.
He continued to do exactly what he thought he was SUPPOSED to be doing there at that fire, at that time… and no one was telling him any different.
The thing to remember is that NO ONE really thought the fire was going to reverse direction. All the ‘money’ was being spent on the NORTH side of the fire… so Marquez really did think he was doing what he was supposed to be doing by jumping in to direct structure protection in the Sickles Road area.
Actually… if we’re going to take another look at this DIVSZ Rance Marquez guy… you really need to take just a moment and read his own official Unit Log. Not many people have… and it’s quite revealing.
It’s not very long at all… so I’m just going to ‘dump’ it into this Reply…
—————————————————————————
** RANCE MARQUEZ
** DIVISION ZULU AT THE YARNELL HILL FIRE, SUNDAY, JUNE 30, 2013
** HIS OFFICIAL ( SIGNED ) UNIT LOG
July 2, 2013
I arrived at ICP at approximately 1030 and checked in with Todd Abel and Paul Musser who were doing operations. I was briefed and shown on a map where the fire was what it was doing and how to get into the area. I was told that Divisions Alpha was in the area with two crews.
Operations designated me division Zulu and was asked to go out and find a division/anchor point and determine resource needs for the next shift.
Before leaving Coogan Caruthers was assigned to go with me as a STL(T).
After taking some time to get the radios cloned and get a briefing on the channel configurations we left ICP between 1130 and 1200.
We arrived in Yarnell and happened to find Gary Cordes who was supervising one of the structure groups. He specified the directions on how to access the area. We found that dozer trail and followed the road it was improving towards the edge of the fire.
We passed where the buggies were parked and visited for a few minutes with Blue Ridge. We were told that their superintendent and foreman were out scouting and were looking for a way into the fire. We drove the road out to where the dozer was working passing where the sup rigs were parked. We ran into the dozer and dozer boss (member of Blue Ridge) towards the end road. He told me that they had finished opening up the road and were working back but they were going to try and tie another jeep trail into a retardant line where we could see Granite Mountain working the edge of the black.
I made contact with division alpha and I asked what his plan was. He said that he was working the heel of the fire. I asked to face to face with him but he said he was way up the line. Coogan and I bumped out to where the sup rigs were parked and we hiked a short ways to where we could see the fire and the ridge where Granite Mountain was working. I contacted ATGS and asked to get a picture of what was going on (They were flying on a lot of retardant). After talking to ATGS there was some confusion between Alpha and myself about who was taking what part of the line. After some discussion it was agreed that it would be better if I looked for another way in and start considering point protection.
Coogan and I were both about to leave the area when Blue Ridge contacted me and said that their sup and foreman were on the way back. I sent Coogan out to start scouting another way in. The sup and foreman had not been able to find a good way into the fire. They said they were going to continue to do some scouting. I left the area between 1400 and 1430 to go back to ICP to download with operations.
Arriving at ICP I found Operation Mussers and explained what I had learned and asked for resources for the next day (crews and engines). About this time STL Carothers contacted me and informed me that there were structures being threatened near the ICP (Sickles and Yavapai Road). When I tied in with him he asked me if I had heard division Alpha calling me (I did not). He said that alpha said that the division break should be further north from where Granite Mountain was working. The time was approximately 1500 to 1530. There was a flanking fire approaching a group of three primary structures. I tried to raise ops to see if there were any resources to help but I did not get an answer nor could I raise structure group two ( Darrell Willis ) who was engaged on the north side of the fire.
Fire intensity began to increase about this time three operations folks from Bea Day’s team rolled up on UTVs and ATVs (Jason Clawson, KC Yowell and Aaron Hulburd). I asked if Bea’s team was taking the fire and KC said he didn’t know. They left the area because the fire was threatening the area where their pickups were parked (near ICP). I went back down to ICP to look for resources as they were just rolling in as the fire was approaching. I still didn’t find any so I returned to where 1 ran into five members of the Price Helitack crew. I also could see that some water tenders and a type six engine had arrived and were being organized by Dan Philbin a division trainee on Beas team. I tied in with Dan and we spread the resources out amongst the houses.
Somewhere during this time I could hear pieces of transmission from Division Alpha and air attack. The air attack was inquiring about Granite Mountain’s situation and I heard someone respond were OK and “hunkered in the black”.
The helitack crew unloaded and began to help with structure protection.
One water tender was already set up at the upper house and I asked Coogan to deploy the other water tender (both had tactical capabilities) and the type 6. Around 1600 the fire intensity really began to increase and started to become more of a head fire. All units were engaged in protecting structures. A SEAT dropped a load of retardant across the fires edge near the lower structures where I was organizing efforts.
The fire intensity began to decrease and I had folks continue to mop up and make sure we didn’t lose the structures we had protected. I was asked for the type 6 and they left the area to help with other structures.
About this time I heard air attack ask what I presumed to be Granite Mountain if they could see the helicopter. Then I heard him ask if they could hear the helicopter. I could also see an air tanker orbiting to the south of my position. A few moments later someone keyed their radio for a second (I presume someone off of Granite Mountain) and made a loud sound. I heard air attack say whoever is yelling into the radio to stop it. I could then hear air attack calling for Division Alpha. With no reply The time was approximately 1645.
Signed: Rance Marquez 9/26/13
—————————————————————-
END of Rance Marquez’s official/signed Unit Log.
—————————————————————-
NOTE: In the last paragraph, it is presumed that Marquez was just a little ‘mixed up’ when he was recalling which radio transmissions he heard in which order. John Burfiend ( in Air Attack ‘Bravo 3′ ) actually said ( to Granite Mountain on the A2G channel ) “Unit that’s hollerin’ into the radio… I need you to quit” BEFORE that sequence when Burfiend had finally realized these men were in real trouble, and he started asking them ( on the A2G channel ) if they could see/hear any of the helicopters that were now trying to locate them.
ALSO NOTE: Kind of odd that the TYPED date for Marquez’s Unit Log at the top is ‘July 2’ ( 2013 )… but he (apparently) didn’t get around to SIGNING it ( in blue ink ) until September 26, 2013… just 48 hours before the SAIR report was going to be released to the public. I’m not sure that means anything, one way or the other, but it’s worth pointing out.
WTKTT,
Thank you for clearing that up for me. I don’t believe, based on that info, that Marquez abandoned his post. He moved to structure protection.
That is odd with the signing date? Good catch. Apparently his unit log was not ‘carved up’ with redactions either.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
February 16, 2016 at 1:02 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Thank you for clearing that up for me. I don’t believe,
>> based on that info, that Marquez abandoned his post.
>> He moved to structure protection.
Marquez was obviously having ‘radio problems’ that day.
That was a lot of the reason it might have ‘appeared’ as if he just ‘disappeared’ that day… but the truth is that OPS2 Paul Musser knew exactly where he was, and what he was doing, and when Musser himself decided to completely add to the chaos that day and ‘jump in’ as the SECOND fully-functional ‘Field OPS’ on the same fire… guess where Musser went?
Musser went straight to the ‘Sickles Road’ area, where Marquez was already directing efforts, and Musser ‘jumped in’ to help him right there in the same place.
That was ALSO the exact same place from which Musser would then make his now infamous ‘availability check’ with Eric Marsh with regards to Granite Mountain, at 3:42 PM.
Marquez was, apparently, not near Musser at that moment since he makes no mention of that at all… but Musser and Marquez WERE sharing ‘supervisory’ duties in the Sickles Road area that afternoon.
It was only OPS1 Todd Abel who would then say something to ADOSH about how “nobody knew where Marquez was”. That was not a true statement. OPS1 Abel didn’t know where he was… but there were a number of people who, at a similar point, didn’t know where OPS1 Abel was, either. A number of people testified to ADOSH that they didn’t even know that OPS1 Abel had decided to get “down in the mud” himself and was directly supervising structure protection efforts all the way out there on Miner’s Camp Road.
THAT is actually where OPS1 Todd Abel was when Steed’s first “We are in front of the flaming front” radio call came over the A2G channel at 4:39 PM.
So yea… Rance Marquez never really ‘disappeared’. He was ( he thought ) just on the NORTH side of his designated ‘Division’, doing what he was supposed to be doing.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> That is odd with the signing date? Good catch.
>> Apparently his unit log was not ‘carved up’
>> with redactions either.
No… it wasn’t.
Matter of fact… believe it or not… Rance Marquez’s Unit Log is one of the ONLY places where we see the actual NAMES of the “Three Prescotteers” actually appearing ( without obfuscation or redaction )… and actually being SPELLED correctly.
If they ( Arizona Forestry and the SAIT ) were really trying to HIDE the fact that Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were ever really THERE that day… or that equally ‘off the the radar’ Dan Philbin had, in fact, jumped in and was playing ‘Division Trainee’ without even being assigned a Division… then they forgot to redact this Unit Log.
There is some very interesting non Information here from DIVS Z.
He would have been the primary supervisor involved in the decision to build that Tractor line we have talked about as the HALE MARRY plan.
There is no mention of that plan which would have been part of DIVS Z responsibility.
And a decision between both Division Supervisors.
It would be strange indeed that the OPS and the STLD would not include the actual DIVS in that plan..
So the question arises since we now know that DIV Z was in fact in full control by Marquez who to our knowledge was a well qualified DIVS.
Question—-Was there ever any HALE MARY plan?
My guess at this point is NO. They could have well just been trying to move the Cat for Line to protect structures.
Which was to late to accomplish.
MY POINT- if there was a new big plane to build new line with a tractor and GM Crew on DIV Z and DIV A Marquez would have been involved in that discussion.
There is no mention by him at least in the notes WTKTT has listed above. It is inconceivable to me that DIVS Z would not be directly involved with OPS in such a move.
Even if Marsh hatched the plan it would have involved Marquez as it was his resources being moved (Tractor) and involved both Divisions.
This would affect any Hale Mary Plan we have been discussing.
Also note Marquez herd–GM was hunkered in the Black—-
INTERESTING……….. ” were ok and hunkered in the black”
From Marquez Log.
Very good points Bob, and in fact, wouldn’t have Div Z been responsible for implementing that plan? If there was an official Hail Mary plan and not just somebody’s…what…last minute shoot from the hip cowboy tactic as opposed to an overall comprehensive strategy? Maybe Marquez has been the key all along?
WTKTT said, “But that probably just pissed Marsh off even more… and led to him pulling rank and ORDERING Steed to “Esse quam videri your ass DOWN here… didi mau…most ricky tick”.
I know this is a serious topic but this one actually made me chuckle, which is not something I do very often.
I mean, a lot has been made of the fact that hotshots pride themselves on being grunts and ground pounders. And here we have four languages (Latin, French, Vietnamese and Pidgin English) from three different continents in everyday use and one of them is even a dead language. So…
Reply to Gary Olson post on February 16, 2016 at 1:18 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> WTKTT said, “But that probably just pissed Marsh
>> off even more… and led to him pulling rank and
>> ORDERING Steed to “Esse quam videri your ass
>> DOWN here… didi mau…most ricky tick”.
>>
>> I know this is a serious topic but this one actually made
>> me chuckle, which is not something I do very often.
Well… the REALLY tragic thing is that, apparently, there was absolutely NO “didi mau most ricky tick” component to that ORDER coming from Marsh at all.
We still don’t know exactly WHAT was said.
Brendan McDonough still knows… as do (probably) a number of the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were also listening to that ‘argument’ in real time on the GM Intra-Crew channel.
Maybe Brendan will finally tell us exactly what was said in his ‘memoir’ this coming May.
Or maybe any Blue Ridge Hotshots who *might* have heard the same conversation will finally step forward.
But even if that happens… I don’t think that we WILL learn there was any kind of “get down here as FAST AS POSSIBLE” component to Marsh’s ORDER.
The current evidence record doesn’t indicate that Steed and the Crew were in ANY HURRY AT ALL… even after they agreed to leave the safe black and start that ‘risky’ hike to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
They SHOULD have been ( hurrying ).
They had NO TIME TO LOSE.
But… apparently… they didn’t KNOW that ( or even care? ).
If they had only at least been doing double-time on the hike from the anchor point to the descent point… there might have been a different outcome that afternoon.
They were not ( doing double-time ).
All the evidence we have ( so far ) indicates they were just ‘strolling along’ on that high ridge two track at a normal hiking pace… like they were just out for little walk on a nice sunny day… nothing to worry about.
Reply to Gary Olson post on February 15, 2016 at 1:58 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> We all know that if you repeat a lie long enough and enough times, it
>> eventually becomes the truth. So we have been put in a position that
>> we have to keep repeating the TRUTH long enough and enough times
>> if there is ever going to be any chance of overcoming, “The Great Lie.”
Agree.
———————————————————-
Besides, as the vilest Writer has his Readers, so the greatest Liar has his Believers; and it often happens, that if a Lie be believ’d only for an Hour, it has done its Work, and there is no farther occasion for it. Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it; so that when Men come to be undeceiv’d, it is too late; the Jest is over, and the Tale has had its effect.
———————————————————-
Jonathan Swift, In ‘The Examiner’, 1710.
Same 1710 quote ended up (supposedly) rephrased by Mark Twain to…
“A lie can travel around the world and back again
while the truth is still lacing up its boots.”
So “The Great Lie” certainly has had a head start… but it’s a marathon… not a sprint.
they thought it was safe…..!!!!/ sometims you havve time to move not evry flank blows….
Hmmmm? Haven’t you read ANYTHING that has been posted over the last 2.5 years? Or did you just read the SAIR? I respect your opinion because well…you said “not evry flank blows….” and that is true…and priceless.
Or is that you just don’t believe anything that has been said over the past 2.5 years. And I am trying very hard here not to be like someone I respect has written to me by saying, “You can disagree and exchange views without being a rude, obnoxious asshole, right? Or is that beyond your skill set at this point?” Which by the way, I find so true…and priceless.
You know stuff like the attorney saying Marsh and Steed argued about it, the towering pyroclastic cloud looming over them raining down fire and brimstone, the firestorm of Biblical proportions burning rapidly down the valley being driven by a fierce wind from the thunder cell overhead that had been forecast, the obvious attempt to disingenuous or worse by Marsh in the radio conversations regarding his plans, the fact the fire front was blowing past their trigger points way ahead of predictions, their lookout had to retreat to only the Creator knew where because neither Steed nor Shit For Brains knew, and I could go on and on but why? You probably get my drift? Right?
How about this ONE more, it was during the magic hours when every hotshot (and probably almost every wildland firefighter in history) was killed, the latter part of the burn period?
I mean c’mon Dale, I really admire someone who is loyal and I think you and I could have raised some hell back in the day, but don’t you think you are taking it a little too far?
I mean…I think the person who wrote the quote above to me really understands me when so many others don’t.
It’s kind of like me being willing to admit that I am not the sharpest tool in the crummy, I mean who cares now? My lifetime race if over…I won.
Whoops it should say, “My lifetime race IS over…I won.” Or at least that is my official position and I am sticking to it.
Dale 1
THERE ARE A LOT OF DEAD FIRE FIGHTERS THAT THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE
They should have made sure it was safe.
You can not ignore the 10 and 18 when things are going to shit which this fire was doing before they left the black.
There was no LCES
IT WAS NOT SAFE!!!!!!!
“Not every flank blows..”…
HOWEVER, that is why you get a briefing, post lookouts, monitor weather, follow the 10 and 18… especially during times when explosive fire potential is possible…..
Someone had better be ASSESSING every flank to see if it blows, whats gonna happen….
OH WAIT, that’s why you have an OPS and FBAN…
I think one of the amazing things about this fire is that Joy and I were observing the fire right along with the 20 GMHS crew. At that time they were to the north of us about a quarter mile on the two track, next the black. We could see the exact same consuming fire they were observing. We were watching it from the two track at the very place they were to descend some time after we deserted the area.
I don’t know if they timed that fire taking over a mountain but I for sure they were looking at the flames boiling eating up that mountain with flames shooting up 50-100 ft, tornadoes of fire, and Sunami like waves going forward as Joy describes them. Even not being a wild land fire fighter I told Joy that a thousand men would never be able to stop the progress of that fire. It was gone and now a dangerous item to be reconed with. That fire would laugh at Pulaskis, booted wild fire men, and any bear, fireman, firetruck or object that wanted to try to challenge it. The high dropped retardant dumps looked to me to be childs play and feeble attempts to slow a voracious death knoll to anything in its wake.
We all were looking to the northeast and above the fire edge were the ominous dark clouds with lightening bearing down and edging our way. By 11:30 the storm appreared. However there was a calmness in the air except Joy and I had different opinions as to which way to exit the scene. She was in no hurry and wanted to descend just as they did and her way she said was to skirt the canyon but the destination was to be the same.
She too felt that since the fire was obviously headed toward the NE that it would be ok to get lodged into that brush below–that despite me telling her that the wind could reverse at any time and once in that manzanita there would be no outrunning that fire. Here where a storm comes there is almost always a calm, then suddenly winds can come howling in upon you and generally they proceed the storm that is coming your way.
To put it as I saw it there was no way I was going to drop off in that canyon and yet Joy was adamant that her way was the best and shortest route to safety. It was in fact a good hike from the two track on up to the top of Weaver mountains, steep as the canyon they dropped down. But once on top, I could feel enough reverse in the wind that I knew I better go back and get her. There she was with her boots off enjoying the fireworks and I had expended more energy to climb up then back down and would have to make that hot steep climb again–but this time I cursed enough and I suppose she could see my urgency enough that she thought it better to follow this time. She donned her boots and somewhat reluctantly faced the steep incline and we proceed out of there.
Joy could not have understood how frustrating it was to me to have to double back for her, but now I think she realizes her way, would have duplicated what the 19 did.
At that time I never would have believed that anyone would have challenged that fire, flanked it or gotten anywhere near it once it got into the manzanita. In my mind those men would be standing back and letting that Fire Eat. To get entangled in any kind of thick brush as impassable as that manzanita was would be an absolutely stupid act on anyone’s part. However I could see a city boy or girl that had no experience in the hill country play like an idiot and try to get close to the fire to feel its searing effect and perhaps watch its consuming destructiveness up close, but 19 well trained wild land fire fighters–with all they say and knew concerning weather?
The strange thing on this Yarnell fire was you did not need the 10 and 18, and the LCES — but if you had them then you had a way to keep alive on this one. Once I read them and understood what they meant, I said this stuff is common sense, something that people that do not know the danger of wild fire and lack a knowledge of the mountain country can count on to save their lives.
Two men, Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed failed their crew. They put them in eminent danger and the public who has now expended millions on a fire that should have been quenched on a Friday before it got out of hand, needs to know it was no accident. They need to know that the death of these men was no accident and no God send. It was pure and foolish actions that killed the crew. Those factors and facts that led up to this catastrophy, if played off as accidental will only contribute to more deaths, more home destruction, and more millions foolishly spent.
Dr. Ted Putnam told me that often fire retardant does little to stop a wild fire like this one. The Jumbo Jet retardant did slow the fire once it was dropped behind the fire once it was headed to the SW. The wind and fire retardant on the North end of Yarnell kept the fire from backing up so it did save U Stow it and a few houses on that end of town–I think maybe four or five. Mean time the fire went straight through Yarnell and Glen Isla picking and choosing half the homes as it went.
I think the biggest joke of all was seeing firemen receive awards and some kid wild land fire fighter saying the 10 and 18 were Hill Billy and now giving talks on how to fight wild land fires. Job well done wild land fighters at Yarnell. Half the town burned, millions spent on so called putting it out, and now the count of dead is up to 78 out of 645 population of Yarnell since the fire. Your retardant, stress to the elderly, losses and because the three local fire departments would not bother to run up and put a lightening strike out in emergency conditions has left plenty people aghast at your efforts. And some of you have the gall to pat yourselves on the back as though you had done a good job. Shame!
Reply to Tex post on February 14, 2016 at 12:03 am
>> Tex said…
>>
>> Two men, Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed failed their crew.
>> They put them in eminent danger and the public who has
>> now expended millions on a fire that should have been
>> quenched on a Friday before it got out of hand, needs to
>> know it was no accident. They need to know that the death of
>> these men was no accident and no God send. It was pure
>> and foolish actions that killed the crew. Those factors and
>> facts that led up to this catastrophy, if played off as accidental
>> will only contribute to more deaths, more home destruction,
>> and more millions foolishly spent.
Agree.
>> Tex also said…
>>
>> Dr. Ted Putnam told me that often fire retardant does little
>> to stop a wild fire like this one. The Jumbo Jet retardant did
>> slow the fire once it was dropped behind the fire once it was
>> headed to the SW. The wind and fire retardant on the North
>> end of Yarnell kept the fire from backing up so it did save
>> U Stow it and a few houses on that end of town – I think
>> maybe four or five. Mean time the fire went straight through
>> Yarnell and Glen Isla picking and choosing half the homes
>> as it went.
There are, in fact, post-fire pictures showing that heavy line of retardant that ended up extending from Shrine Road NORTH, past the U-Stow-It and then continuing NORTH and out-of-town into the foothills WEST of Highway 89, and those photographs DO tend to show a ‘hard line’ between where the ‘black’ stops at the retardant line…
…but as you just said… the REASON it looks like that retardant was so successful is because at the time it was even first being laid down, the wind had already shifted to the SOUTH / SOUTHWEST and the fire was only sort of ‘backing’ towards Highway 89 in that location where the retardant was being laid. They were dropping against just a ‘flank’, not ‘the head’.
And the reason that retardant line looks so ‘heavy’ in the photographs is because by the time Thomas French and John Burfiend ( in ‘Bravo 33’ ) actually got DOWN to the south side of the fire that day… that was the only ‘safe’ location left to even try and drop retardant… so that’s where they concentrated their efforts.
Thomas French had TOLD the departing Air Attack Rory Collins at 3:50 PM, after being told there was a (quote) “lotta fire headed towards Yarnell”, that he was “headed that way”.
He did no such thing.
Rory Collins then left the fire because his pilot was timing out on hours, and Thomas French then just used the entire load of an inbound VLAT and two fresh SEATS to just ‘finish up’ the retardant line he’d been working on up there on the NORTH end of the fire. The wind had already radically changed direction and the threat to the Model Creek Road, Miner’s Camp Road areas had abated… but French just wanted to ‘finish up’ what he’d been working on.
It would be another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes before he would finally do what he had told Rory Collins he would do at 3:50 PM… and finally “head that way” down to the SOUTH side of the fire where Yarnell and Glen Ilah were.
By the time French got down there, it was TOO LATE to drop any retardant where it might have done some good protecting either Yarnell proper or Glen Ilah.
By the time he got down there, the smoke column had already started ‘laying down’ making it unsafe to drop any retardant in front of the now SOUTH-moving fireline.
So French just concentrated on that area to the north of town, because it was the only ‘safe’ place left to do any retardant drops.
French even told the Air Tankers he was then working with that they “couldn’t get in where it was really needed”, and so they worked on that area north of town instead.
The reason they could no longer “get in where it was really needed” was because of the 40 ( FORTY ) minutes Thomas French had wasted up on the north end before even bothering to turn his attention towards Yarnell and Glen Ilah… even after having been TOLD to do so by the previous Air Attack.
It can be debated whether even some drops in more stategic locations would have saved any parts of Yarnell or Glen Ilah… but there is no room for debate that because of the time Thomas French wasted on the north end of the fire that afternoon, the opporutunity to even TRY those ‘better drops’ was completely lost.
>> Tex also said…
>>
>> I think the biggest joke of all was seeing firemen receive awards
>> and some kid wild land fire fighter saying the 10 and 18 were Hill
>> Billy and now giving talks on how to fight wild land fires. Job well
>> done wild land fighters at Yarnell. Half the town burned, millions
>> spent on so called putting it out, and now the count of dead is up
>> to 78 out of 645 population of Yarnell since the fire. Your retardant,
>> stress to the elderly, losses and because the three local fire
>> departments would not bother to run up and put a lightening
>> strike out in emergency conditions has left plenty people aghast
>> at your efforts. And some of you have the gall to pat yourselves
>> on the back as though you had done a good job. Shame!
The start of the “Greatest Blunder in Wildfire Fighting History” was definitely Friday afternoon/evening.
The Phoenix New Times
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Ignored Major Mistakes by the State
Published: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 – by John Dougherty
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state-6667860
From that article…
——————————————————————
There still was more than two hours of daylight after the fire first was reported at 5:41 p.m. on Friday,
June 28 — more than enough time for a quick strike by firefighters before nightfall, wildfire experts say.
Former Yarnell Fire Chief Andersen is convinced that the fire could’ve been extinguished the evening it started if the Yarnell Hill Fire Department and the state had quickly responded.
“There’s a jeep road that goes up there to it,” he says. “There’s no reason for that [fire] not to have been put out.”
Firefighters from the nearby community of Congress were poised to at least attempt to engage the fire with Yarnell’s department but were directed by state officials not to respond.
“They ( Arizona Forestry ) basically told us they were working on it,” Congress Fire Chief Virgil Suitor says of state
Forestry Division representatives. “They told us to stand down because it was up on the rock pile.”
The investigation report doesn’t address why the state didn’t ask Prescott National Forest officials or other federal agencies with substantial firefighter resources for immediate assistance to put out the fire. There were ‘Heltiack’ stationed at the Prescott National Forest who were available on Friday.
The report doesn’t mention Shumate’s lackadaisical response to the start of the fire, even though state dispatchers seemed prepared to ramp up the attack immediately.
“Do we need to order additional resources?” the state dispatcher asked Shumate after notifying him about the fire.
“Negative. We might get a crew in there tomorrow,” Shumate responded.
Nearly an hour after the fire was first reported, a crew member aboard a federal Bureau of Land Management fire engine notified state dispatch that his crew was in contact with a local Yarnell rancher who saw the lightning strike, and “we are going to follow him up to where it is.”
The state dispatch log, however, provided no additional information on what happened to the BLM fire engine, stating that radio contact was lost.
There was no other mention of the BLM engine in state dispatch logs until 9:35 p.m., when Shumate stated that it was returning to its base near Wickenburg.
Shumate told Arizona dispatchers at 7:19 p.m. that the fire was “inactive, not much of a threat” and that he was “not taking action tonight.”
——————————————————————–
** TOTAL AMOUNT OF RETARDANT DROPPED
Sonny… it’s been a crazy week on this end and I meant to post this earlier.
With regards to how much actual RETARDANT was dropped in/around Yarnell that weekend, there has alwasy been the following section on PDF page 106 of the orignal SAIR document…
——————————————————————–
Table 1. Aircraft Hourly Rates and Flight Hour Summary
VLAT = Very Large Air Tanker ( DC10 jets, etc. )
LAT = Large Air Tanker
SEAT = Single Engine Air Tanker
VLAT – DC-10 Flight Rate (5000 gallons of retardant or less) $ 4,553/hr.
VLAT – DC-10 Flight Rate (5000 gallons of retardant or more) $ 12,500/hr.
LAT – P2V Flight Rate (2,082 gallons of retardant) $ 8,495/hr.
SEAT
Single Engine Airtanker Flight Rate (750 gallons of retardant) $ 3,242/hr.
SEAT
Single Engine Airtanker Flight Rate (450 gallons of retardant) $ 2,305/hr.
YARNELL RETARDANT DROPS – Date, Type, Flights, Gallons, Hours
* Saturday, 29 June 2013
SEAT, 15, 7,626, 6.92
* Sunday, 30 June 2013
SEAT, 47, 31,268, 15.2
LAT, 17, 35,379, 15.36
VLAT, 8, 88,106, 10.52
* Monday, 1 July 2013
SEAT, 25, 15,990, 6.71
LAT, 2, 4,887, 2.1
VLAT, 2, 22,458, 2.22
Totals…
116 flights that dropped retardant.
205,714 total gallons of retardarnt dropped.
59.03 hours spent dropping retardant.
———————————————————–
So when Kyle Dickman, in his book, said that only 30,000 gallons of retardant was dropped in/around Yarnell that weekend in June/July, 2013… he was WAY OFF. That ‘30,000’ gallons figure isn’t even the total amount that was dopped by the smaller SEAT Aircraft on Sunday alone.
The TOTAL is more like 205,714 gallons of retardant dropped.
TWO HUNDRED AND FIVE THOUSAND GALLONS ( AND CHANGE )!
I could not post under Sonny–seems I was hacked or banned somehow, so use my real handle–Tex. The world is strange and this Yarnell Hill Fire adds to the strangeness. Dad liked Tex Ritter and most of the family were born in Texas so I got the name Tex. Some great great grand uncle was killed in the Alamo so the pride of Texas named me Tex eventhough I should have been named Nevada since I was born there. Dad was mining tungsten out of Austin at that time–and made it to a Fallon hospital, my birth place. Dad had travelled with a band throughout Texas–he was a banjo picker and had multi talent as a musician, as many of the Irish do. But his real heart was in prospecting and mining–something I saw since childhood and was often in the mines with him helping him do the work of a miner since a child as early as nine years of age. Mining and prospecting, like the life of the wild land fighter has its hard work aspects but also is for those who appreciate the wild lands and the healthy life of the outdoorsman. Both occupations speak of survival–and these survivalist shows are laughable compared to the real life of the outdoorsman. If Hollywood really wanted some fine shows it would be about the real wild land fire fighters, smoke jumpers–we hope that this new movie speaks to that truth, rather than a fictitious show as we have seen with the official Yarnell Hill Fire investigation.
Thanks WTKTT that you have given us the true count of fire retardant at 205,714 gallons. I had quoted Kyle Dickman who had stated about 30,000 gallons. It goes to show how sorry his book was researched and adds to the fact it belongs on the Fiction Shelf at the library. Here on this site we have people who do not tolerate the fiction we have been fed about the Yarnell fire and are exposing all these authors, official investigators and others who write their own narritives afar from the truth. But then they are seeking quick money, accolades and notoriety not weighing the damage to the safety of future fire fighters as well as the costs to the public for the ineffective methods and efforts we saw in the Yarnell Fire Catastrophy. This incident demands the truth and as far as I can tell, John Dougherty’s Investigative Media Site is the only one addressing the lies fed to the public about what was an avoidable tragedy.
I will be hiking up to the top of the Weavers again using the exact longitude and latitude on a PN-40 Earthmate Delorme GPS device to locate where the origin of the fire was and to photograph the area and any evidence of a lightening strike that can be found. I will get Joy to help me post anything photographed so people can get a view of what is proposed as point of origin. Seems that was never a big deal to the investigators in this death investigation–something I thought would have been a priority–finding and photographing the exact lightening strike and showing the public photos and evidence of such, especially considering 19 deaths and millions the public tax payer has spent on this fire. Not nick picking–but we better be on such a catastrophy.
We do have a psychic visiting and for those who want to know what she says and sees about the fire we will inform you. Some will say for religious reasons they do not want to hear. Well close your eyes and minds to whatever she reports. The lawmen and FBI oftentimes go to Psychics and do not seem to close their minds to anything they thing might give them a different perspective to help solve a crime. The crime is to close your mind to anything except what some fat assed preacher wants you to think. When you open up to all people and hear them out then you have an opportunity to use the few nuts that rattle around in your brain. What she gives will not necessarily be my own opinion, nor perhaps yours. Be that as it may, this is America and we all have a right to our opinions, even if wrong. It takes a WTKTT or Gary Olsen. Bob Powers to help us get the facts straight.
Thanks for allowing me to post here. I am as interested to see this thing through as all on this site. The world has a right to know the truth as to what caused one of the worlds worst wild land fire fighting disasters and what remedies can be made to insure the lives of future wild land fire fighting efforts and how their tax dollars can be spent more efficiently in future wild land fire fighting situations.
I have some fence to build now–more thought on this matter and a good look at those bricks Joy has arranged to form the number 19 at the beginning of our driveway.
Well…I think you summed that up pretty darn good Sonny.
And welcome back WTKTT, we have all been wondering when you would weigh in again.
Dale…I just reread your comment and I have one more question for you.
Do you think the fire that killed the crew was a flank that blew out? I am pretty sure it was the head of the fire and everybody including them knew, that was what was coming burning to the south-southeast after it had spun around and reversed course…right?
Now…they obviously thought they could BEAT the fire front to town and that was their plan. But that was not an accident as you described it a few months ago….as I told you then, an accident is in, “an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.”
What Marsh made and Steed eventually agreed to carry out was a mistake as in “action or judgment that is misguided or wrong”
There was really no “they” involved. We can argue all day long about the “Abilene paradox” but that was not how the hotshot crews I knew worked. The hotshot crews I worked on worked under the principle that if the crew boss said it was Easter, everybody immediately started looking for Easter eggs.” And that included me when I a crewman on a hotshot crew.
Do you know why? It was because my two crew bosses knew a lot more about how to run a hotshot crew than I did. That was why they were the crew bosses and I wasn’t. Were they right about everything, every time? Probably not, but they were right a lot more often than they were wrong. I didn’t want them to ask me what I thought. You have to play the odds and the odds are, the hotshot crew boss is RIGHT and there usually isn’t the time or the need for a committee meeting to discuss the issues.
If I worked for a hotshot crew boss who wanted to know what I thought (assuming I was not a squad boss or assistant) we should do, I would go find a new crew boss because it would be obvious that person doesn’t know what they are doing and I would not have any confidence in them.
Now…as WTKTT has said, fighting wildfire as a hotshot is NOT rocket science is true. BUT if the pilot of the airplane I am on comes back and asks me what I think about how he should fly the thing or the plumber I just hired comes in and asks me to crawl under the house with him and give him my opinion on how best to fix the problem I called him about…I am getting off that airplane and calling in a new plumber didi mau…most ricky tick.
A lot has been said over the past 2.5 years about the interaction of hotshot crew bosses with overhead. I gave my example of being sent home from the Scott Fire on the Coronado in 1983 and RTS has said he was sent home from many fires because yes…he was known as a rebel whereas as I have said, I was known as a gung ho can do company man.
But that was the ONLY time I ever had any disagreement with any overhead on how I should manage my crew or work my piece of the fire line in my seven years as a hotshot crew. And that was over my refusal to order my crew to take a shower…not over issue on the fire line.
Without exception my conversations with my sector bosses always went something like this and would start with a question from me, “What do you want us to do? To which I would always get the same answer more or less, “You’re the hotshot crew boss; you have our general objectives in the shift plan, let me know if you need anything.”
Actually, I am going to have to correct myself. Marsh and Steed did not make a bad mistake, they made bad CHOICES as in, “The power, right, or liberty to choose; an option, an alternative.”
Reply to Gary Olson post February 13, 2016 at 11:05 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Actually, I am going to have to correct myself.
>> Marsh and Steed did not make a bad mistake,
They most certainly did. A real WHOPPER ( which is now historic ).
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> they made bad CHOICES as in, “The power, right, or liberty
>> to choose; an option, an alternative.”
No need to correct yourself at all.
Bad CHOICES are, in fact, the brick and mortar of bad MISTAKES.
Here you go, Bob: (Bob said 12FEB16 @1138 hrs)
”
Situational Awareness.
A 100% Safe Plan.
Must be determined before moving from point A to Point B.
Whether it is building Line or Moving across unburned fuel to a new location.
The 18—The 10—and LCES are your guide
When your ass is 100% covered then carry out the plan.
GM failed to do the evaluation and determine a 100% ability to accomplish the move.
There were 5 or 6 of the 18 that were telling them to stop and evaluate what they were going to do. That were hitting some big Sirens or Red Flags.
The 10 that they did not evaluate or consider.
2,3,4,5,7, and the always big #10.
How can any one justify a move from the safe black almost one and a half miles to a safety zone. Crossing in front of the fire head that is less than 3/4 of a mile from your travel route
thru heavy brush and in a canyon, when you already have wind changes a weather prediction of high erratic winds from Clouds moving near the fire. You are in to the time of day when fire activity is the greatest.
How dose anyone justify the move GM made?
Did they really have a false since of the capability of the Fire Shelter.?
Did the GM crew believe the 10 and 18 were hillbilly?
Was the BSR safer than the Black?
Was cutting your way thru brush a Escape Route?
Why did they not communicate their plan with their Supervisor and Adjoining forces?
None of those very simple questions were answered by the SAIT report Why?
They never had a safe plan A. They got up and moved because their DIVS March told them to.
That has always been the main discussion here.
Their reliance on the Fire Shelter killed them as did their unsafe move with out a plan.
ALWAYS ASK WHAT IF?????????????”
Thanks My old is showing—-
OUR discussion got so long I did not want to loose this so brought it to the TOP
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-325503
Well That did not work
Try Bob Powers Says February 12, .2016 AT 1138
Well…I have been thinking about Woodsman’s numbers and I think they are staggering….not surprising but staggering. And it is like I suspected, it wasn’t a close call. The area where the crew deployed their fire shelters was tantamount to suicide. So there is a lesson there…don’t do that, keep going until you find a much bigger place and take the chance of dying on your feet moving forward.
The part of his calculations that really surprised me however, is that apparently the area required for a survivable deployment does not go up in a linear manner, but instead goes up exponentially, so that a doubling of the flame lengths does not mean you double the area needed, you have to do that times two. So that is another really good thing to know.
And as the Woodsman said, that does even consider the effects of convective heat which of course is going to be really important. This is a hard thing to write and will be a hard thing for you to read but..it is my understanding that the leather boots the crew were wearing were nearly all consumed by convective heat.
That means the boots we saw used in the memorial ceremony were borrowed from other wildland firefighters and I understand those came from the Prescott Hotshots. That is not a surprising fact, but it really gives me a good visual of what we are talking about here.
And I guess I should add this for those of you that don’t know it. Wildland firefighters wear really heavy, thick 100% leather boots (without steel toes because of convective heat) because they are so resistant to damage from direct heat.
I have worked around hot ash and coals for hours while mopping up a fire without damaging my White’s. So it really does give me a sobering visual that the crew’s boots were burned up.
I should have walked ON and stood IN hot ash and coals for hours while mopping up without damaging my fire boots.
Gary as we know and have always known that brush filled canyon was and always will be a DEAD ZONE.
The Experience of Steed and Marsh should have told them that.
I still believe the Convective heat would have very likely killed them in the Rocks
if they could have got there. They may not have burned but the Heat would have fried their lungs. That whole canyon from ridge to ridge was never the place to be.
Bob,
I agree 100% with your basic premise that they should never have been in that chute or even left the black. BUT…you and I have had a running disagreement now for years that I continue to think you are wrong about, and that is their chances of surviving in the rocks.
The fact is, they did leave the black and they did go down the chute. And something similar is going to happen again sooner or later to another hotshot crew, they are going to make a mistake. We have seen it already happen four times in the history of hotshot crews. We will see it again; it is just a matter of when.
And it very likely will be with the next generation of hotshots after the memory and the lessons learned from the Yarnell Hill Fire have faded into a dim memory in the distant past. You and I can’t even find out HOW MANY hotshots died (although I suspect one more died after the report was written?) on the Loop Fire. One definitive report says eleven and the other one say’s twelve. Those numbers are pretty close unless you were the twelfth hotshot or the ones who loved the twelfth hotshot… so what’s up with that?
That sorry fact should be a wakeup call for those who loved the crew, History may not even remember HOW MANY of them died on the Yarnell Hill Fire in a few years. As I have always said, those of us on this thread who care are not their problem; their problem is that very few people do care about their loved ones.
They say that twice is a coincidence but three times is a pattern. And we are now analyzing FOUR times, that is definitely a pattern in my book. So, let’s look at the years we are talking about;
1947 – 1966 = 19 years (11 or 12 dead, nineteen badly burned)
1966 – 1976 = 10 years (3 dead, one badly burned)
1976 – 1994 = 18 years (14 dead, I don’t know even how many were badly burned, Eric Hipke + ?)
1994 – 2013 = 19 years (19 dead…no survivors except for shit-for-brains)
So…I predict that it will happen again in about 2029, give or take a few years. And I will tell you and everyone else who is reading this blog one really, really, really, sad but true fact. The numbers of hotshots who have been killed in the history of hotshot crews are statistically insignificant. Unless of course, you were one of the hotshots who were killed or one of those who loved them.
That number of dead compared to the number of hours worked by hotshots since 1947 in an INHERENTLY dangerous job means that the industry is doing an outstanding job from a safety perspective. Even though it is comparing apples and oranges, because there are so many more convenience store clerks than hotshots, but the fact is, convenience store clerks are in a MUCH more dangerous job.
Now Bob, I am going to ask you to please stop disagreeing with me about what wildland firefighters need to do AFTER they fuck up, because we know some of them, unlike you and possibly RTS (although he has acknowledged that yes indeed…he did fuck up at least once) are going to fuck up again. I think we can agree that it is only a matter of time…right?
And I think your repeating your position by rote isn’t being helpful and ignores the fact that some wildland firefighters are going to eventually fuck up again. What I am trying to get through to those who are reading this blog…is what to do AFTER they fuck up and when they can’t unfuck it.
And that is to run for the boulders or whatever may be in front, beside, or behind them and take on chance on living and in a worst case scenario die on their feet moving away from the flames, rather than laying down and committing suicide by crawling into a turkey tent in an area that is NOT survivable. Right…?
Oh…and one more thing. I have seen the soles of cheap boots bought by FNG’s melt off their uppers after less than one shift of mopping up. So…your starting place and minimum standard when shopping for fire boots as a Newbie is at the Red Wing Boot store…not J.C. Penny’s. You’re welcome.
In other words, you are 100% right about Plan A, but I am writing about what Plan B should be after Plan A has gone to hell in a hand basket, for whatever reason. OK?
Gary I do not disagree with you all I can really say is once you fuck up you only have a small amount of time to make the right decision to survive. As we read all the burn overs some have managed to walk away. Luck or the right choice?
Rocks have good and bad scenarios take your choice. The Fire shelter’s has saved a few luck and choice.
The best plan is LCES move with the closes escape or as near to Safe areas as you can get. The rest is wildfire 101.
A superheated air temp of 2000 plus is un survivable no matter where you are. Yes you have to get out of that environment. One intake of air over 600 Degrees and your lungs are done in less than one second its over.
That is the only reason I say the rocks in the Canyon the GM crew was in may not have saved them any way but there is always that chance of the right place in a hole maybe you get lucky. All 19 probably not.
Just my opinion I was never in that situation because I never put myself there or any crews under me.
Dammit Gary my plan A never Failed me If I ever thought I needed a plan B I would have quit the Forest Service.
Bob said, “That is the only reason I say the rocks in the Canyon the GM crew was in may not have saved them any way but there is always that chance of the right place in a hole maybe you get lucky. All 19 probably not.”
I think the key words in that statement are, “MAY, CHANCE, LUCKY, and PROBABLY.” Compared to a 100% fatality rate, I will take those odds.
And if we could only have ONE of them back, we would take that deal…right?
So..thank you.
The chances are always there like I said Luck and choices are slim odds but never bet against them.
I second the motion, I think our friends to the north (Canadians) have this right.
I never actually heard “take the black with you” before, but I like that phrase. I wish I would have thought that one up and then I would have copyrighted it as well.
I was too young for Vietnam, but we had a few Vietnam Vets on the crew over the years and I learned to say “didi mau most ricky tick MF” from them. Which roughly translates into “haul ass….immediately if not sooner.”
Ahhhhh, memories. I like taking little strolls down memory lane while listening to The Boss sing “Glory Days” on my IPod.
Bob,
Good info, but…I didn’t say we didn’t do that, I just said I had never heard the expression “bring the black with you” which I like so much I am going to use it in the book I will never finish AND give my readers the impression I thought it up, because….what the fuck will they know anyway?
Everyone but us still thinks the Big Bad Fire is responsible for the deaths of the crew. We just always called it from our training, “one foot in the black.”
I am interested in the regional differences between hotshot crews, like some of the vernacular.
Did you guy’s use “didi mau most ricky tick MF?”
And of course I now expect my “WFF Death Shrouds c” will be picked up to be the new term for fire shelters.
Situational Awareness.
A 100% Safe Plan.
Must be determined before moving from point A to Point B.
Whether it is building Line or Moving across unburned fuel to a new location.
The 18—The 10—and LCES are your guide
When your ass is 100% covered then carry out the plan.
GM failed to do the evaluation and determine a 100% ability to accomplish the move.
There were 5 or 6 of the 18 that were telling them to stop and evaluate what they were going to do. That were hitting some big Sirens or Red Flags.
The 10 that they did not evaluate or consider.
2,3,4,5,7, and the always big #10.
How can any one justify a move from the safe black almost one and a half miles to a safety zone. Crossing in front of the fire head that is less than 3/4 of a mile from your travel route
thru heavy brush and in a canyon, when you already have wind changes a weather prediction of high erratic winds from Clouds moving near the fire. You are in to the time of day when fire activity is the greatest.
How dose anyone justify the move GM made?
Did they really have a false since of the capability of the Fire Shelter.?
Did the GM crew believe the 10 and 18 were hillbilly?
Was the BSR safer than the Black?
Was cutting your way thru brush a Escape Route?
Why did they not communicate their plan with their Supervisor and Adjoining forces?
None of those very simple questions were answered by the SAIT report Why?
They never had a safe plan A. They got up and moved because their DIVS March told them to.
That has always been the main discussion here.
Their reliance on the Fire Shelter killed them as did their unsafe move with out a plan.
ALWAYS ASK WHAT IF?????????????
Bob,
I’ve thought a lot about this statement you just made and before I respond let me just say a couple of things:
1. If you stop and think about it, what an incredible thing Mr. Dougherty has done by having this forum available to us. Wff past and present can hash it out, share ideas, and generally discuss a profession we obviously love – or we wouldn’t do it. I just wish that 19 hotshots didn’t have to die in order for us to be here.
2. I have a huge amount of respect for you and all the old time wff’s that care enough to participate in this discussion. It’s like I struck gold here. I’m challenging myself to learn and grow – to be better out on the line until I hang up the boots. I have learned a great deal from you so thank you!
Now about this Plan A – Plan B that you say you would quit if you ever had to deviate from Plan A. I’m really trying to understand what you are saying here because I just don’t believe it’s realistic to rely on one plan and one plan alone. I believe we need to accept the premise that we are humans and mistakes will be made. Isn’t it statistically highly unlikely that firefighters will not make a mistake at some point in their career? And if they do, don’t you think that training for this moment or at least accepting the possibility that things could go wrong…wouldn’t it be beneficial for wff’s to have the adaptive mindset to deal with it in productive ways? To ensure the best odds of survival? I worry about a firefighter that would totally shutdown and panic in such a situation if they had no Plan B because they never believed it could happen to them.
I’m no psychologist and I think that is what we are delving into here. Dr. Putnam would be a real asset in this discussion.
Woodsman
Simply if you have to also have a plan B the you need to evaluate your plan A you have truly missed something.
LCES is not a big plan it can also be a Micro Plan.
Do you have escape routes and safe areas to get to should something happen? If your only solution is to run back or forward or to the rocks is what your doing the right move?
To many people do not take the time to ask all the questions before committing That is Plan A.
Bob,
Is what you are trying say something like:
Plan A is the only plan. That is knowing understanding and following the 10/18 and LCES at all times? Therefore there really is no other valid ‘plan’?
Thanks!
Woodsman
Yes Woodsman. Plan B means you have a concern Plan A wont work. There for stop and reevaluate plan A.
GM moved from a good Black SZ to go to another SZ what was their plan A or did they even have one that did not include all the risks they took with their move??????
Reflect on it awhile and in a situation the 10 and 18 will dictate your decisions.
You have been there many times I am sure.
RTS will tell you I was a real SOB on the 10 and 13 but we were never in a bad spot with Oak Grove HS. If you missed it RTS worked on my crew in 1973.
The Superintendent My self and our 2 Crew Bosses worked and planed our safety.
We did not have the new term LCES but we used it on every fire as part of the TEN STANDARD ORDERS.
The whole YHF stinks because the GMIHS had no plan B, they went with Plan A, if it failed, they would all perish. I don’t believe it mattered if they deployed where they were or if in the rocks. The extreme heat from the fire (estimated at 2000 F) may not have made skin contacts if in the rocks, but the superheated gasses would have done their lungs in. Even in a fire shelter, in the rocks, they would have perished.
And since I am talking about PLANS… To me it is very apparent that none of the overhead on this fire, from its time of ignition, had thought about a plan B, as well.. They thought straight forward piece of shit scrub fire, up in the rocks of the Arizona desert.. Toss a couple crews at it, mop it up, back to base, hot shower cold beer, high fives and ass slaps…
NO ONE thought “Holy Crap, its gonna be a 100 F, single digit RH and winds of 50 MPH, in an area that the locals know is drought stricken in mesquite, chapparal, brush”…. WTF? are we gonna do if the winds do show???” If ONE person in the management role (IC/Plans/Ops/FBAN) would have brought that notion to the command meeting, possibly this tragedy would not have happened.. Not saying Yarnell would have survived but the 19 FF may have..
I agree with all of that except for your interpretation of why I am discussing Plan B, which is really a misnomer.
I am not trying to litigate whether or not the crew would have survived in the rocks or should have run for the rocks or not. This discussion has gone down a winding path. So I am going to try to reorient it.
I am trying to introduce the policy, philoshpy, thought pattern, training, whatever you want to call it that widland firefighters should do ANYTHING else rather than lay down and commit suicide by crawling under some aluminum tinfoil to die by being burned alive IF they are in a NON SURVIVABLE deployment site.
I believe this concept is contrary to what I was taught, what I taught everyone on my crews and everything that was taught to the crew (GMIHC). Which was and is, to always go into the fire shelters regardless of where you are deplolying them. I believer “they” did this to try and make the pendelum swing back from the initial reaction from WFF to fire shelters, which was, “Are you out of your fucking mind, do you think I am going under that to die!” And now they have swung the pendulum to far the other way so that any crew, anywhere on any fire iis in danger of mindlessly following that ridiculous doctrine as explained by that idiot on the fire shelter video when he intones, “fire shelters have saved hundreds of lives since they were first introduced.” Which is BULLSHIT!
WFF should consider other options, which includes running away from the flames and take a chance on dying on their feet while looking for a SURVIVABLE deployment site if they find themselves in a NON SURVIVABLE deployment site. And yes, if it is a close call, say for example over one acre when they really need four and one half acres to escape serious burns, than by all means, crawl on your belly on the ground under your roasting bag. If however, the Pie In The Shy Interagecny Hotshot Crew finds themselves facing nearly horizontal flame lengths of 120 feet at temperatures that exceed 2000 degrees, DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY SPEND ANY TIME IMPROVING, OR CLIMBING UNDER, OR EVEN TRYING TO CLIMB UNDER A DEATH SHROUD WHILE YOU COULD BE DIDI MAUING MOST RICKY TICK MOTHERFUCKERS.
I don’t find that a hard concept to grasp and I as I like to admit, I was not the sharpest tool in the crummy. So…. .
Whoops forgot to add, “If however, the Pie In The Sky Interagecny Hotshot Crew (any crew, Crew X,Y or Z) finds themselves facing nearly horizontal flame lengths of 120 feet at temperatures that exceed 2000 degrees, DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY SPEND ANY TIME IMPROVING, OR CLIMBING UNDER, OR EVEN TRYING TO CLIMB UNDER A DEATH SHROUD WHILE YOU COULD BE DIDI MAUING MOST RICKY TICK MOTHERFUCKERS. If you find yoursleves looking at a deployment site that is about the size of a three car garage.
The area the crew died in WAS NOT A CLOSE FUCKING CALL. It was a SUICIDE SITE for 18 men who lacked the experience to make an indepdentdent and logical decision based on common sense and the reality of their situation when they found themselves in a situation where they were in a Black Zone (which I will explain on my next post since I am tired of typing right now AND frustrated I am getting so much push back on what I think is so simple and makes so much common sense.) they were unable to do ANYTHING other than revert to their TRAINING which was deeply FLAWED (I will give my best example of that as well on my next post…so stay tuned, I know everyone wants and needs to know everything I think about this situation) .
And yes, I remember 19 died, but by the time time the last man joined them, it really was too late to live.
We will never know if Marsh had the experience and common sense needed to recognize they were minutes away from committing group suicide, because the GREEK GOD SURE AS FUCK DID NOT!
And by the way, if the ONE man we could have back in a deal with the Creator turned out to be Marsh or ‘Steed, I would give them a man hug and we would cry together for the others. I would forgive them, but real forgiveness has to come from the families of the other 17.
BUT THE FIRST THING THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN THERE, IS THAT EVERYONE NEEDS TO ADMIT A REALLY BAD MISTAKE WAS MADE AT WORK BY TWO MEN THAT COST 17 OTHERS THEIR LIVES IN A HORRIBLE WAY. That is the first step to finding forgiveness and moving forward to make sure this NEVER happens again. And “we” aren’t there yet, and may never get there.
Death Shroud? Where the hell did that come from? I like it. As a matter of fact I am going to Copyright it.
Turkey tents, basting bags, roasting bags, shake n bake bags? No…Death Shrouds C.
In other words, yes…Bob is right (bless his heart) nobody should ever make a mistake and then nobody would die or get seriously hurt (unless they get hit by a meteorite while fighting wildfire).
But that isn’t going to happen. Hotshot crews are made up of people. And people are fallible. People make mistakes. Hotshot crews are routinely sent into the worst areas on a wildfire to accomplish the most difficult and dangerous tasks.
If you put those two undeniable facts together, it is natural to conclude that the people who make up hotshot crews and who are routinely sent into the worst areas on a wildfire to accomplish the most difficult and dangerous tasks someone is going to eventually make a mistake because people are fallible.
And simply saying, “well…I have any easy fix for that, no one should eve make a mistake!” is not realistic. So…we (do I have a mouse in my pocket?) have to train the people who make up the hotshot crews what to do after they have made a mistake (fucked up) when they can’t undo the mistake (unfuck it).
Right now, they are being trained to crawl on their belly’s under their WFF Death Shrouds C, even in non survivable deployment sites without considering the other alternative….RUN AWAY FROM THE FLAMES AND TAKE A CHANCE ON DYING ON YOUR FEET STILL FIGHTING RATHER THAN LAYING DOWN TO COMMIT GROUP SUICIDE,while you hope to find a survivable deployment site before you do die on your feet!
I would really like to meet the person who would jump off a cliff to their death just because someone say’s they are going to PUSH them off the cliff to their death. That is when you start fighting….not jumping.
And yes, it would certainly be best if nobody was ever put in a position again where they are in danger of being pushed off a cliff.
But that is not going to happen. It is only a question of WHEN, not IF, another hotshot crew supervisor makes a mistake (because of human factors) on a wildfire that is going to cost others under their supervision their lives…so lets (my mouse and I) prepare for that day as best we can without insisting on either one of two things, 1, Never make a mistake, or 2. Crawl on your belly into your WFF Death Shroud C.
OK?
Gary,
Comments to RTS below gave me an idea,
Proclamation:
By the power vested in me (none), and due to our inability to figure out a reliable method of definition and use, I hereby eliminate ‘safety zones’ from all wildland fire operations from this day forward. It is to be replaced by an across the board ‘1 Foot In the Black’ policy. I also hereby abolish the use of and carrying of all ‘fire shelters’ immediately by reason of unrealistic sense of security and cost of upgrades, They were meant as a joke and it just sort of got out of hand.
end of Proclamation
Well, what say you?
Woodsman
I second the motion, I think our friends to the north (Canadians) have this right.
I never actually heard “take the black with you” before, but I like that phrase. I wish I would have thought that one up and then I would have copyrighted it as well.
I was too young for Vietnam, but we had a few Vietnam Vets on the crew over the years and I learned to say “didi mau most ricky tick MF” from them. Which roughly translates into “haul ass….immediately if not sooner.”
Ahhhhh, memories. I like taking little strolls down memory lane while listening to The Boss sing “Glory Days” on my IPod.
Gary,
It’s done then…I’ll have it signed, notarized, & sent to Washington in the morning.
Sidenote: we always bring black with us by way of drip torch or fusees. We always attack grass/range fire from the black. One foot in the black or standing/driving in it.
Woodsman
History lesson____
The 1 Foot in the Black or bring the black with you
was how training went Back in the 50’s and 60’s.
and stayed with us old farts.
Thus the old burn out as you go.
There has been a lot of discussion the past 2 years of going back to 1 foot in the Black at all times. The drought has brought back some old rules.
The only way to bring your safety zone with you is to rely on escape into the black.
Pre set SZ are OK till you start moving away from them the further you move the less reliable they are. Time vs. Distance.
Indirect line is a high risk option. Location is critical. Back Fire is critical. Timing is critical.
SZ is mandatory the more the better.
Once you start the Back fire guess what you are bringing the Black with you.
History for 2 years I was a Member of one of two Backfiring teams in R5 we went to severial fires
planed and executed back fires that stopped the advance of the main fire What a Hoot.
We used Napalm canisters, flair guns and the old Fusee’s and drip torches.
I agree with you now Gary, after you clarified your intent.
I think the crew had it so ingrained in their brains that when an entrapment occurs, that you automatically “deploy shelters”… Maybe, running away could have helped. I doubt it because of the nature of the fire behaviour. It would have scattered corpses out over a bigger area.
More training needs to be given to practice “avoidance”… Situational awareness, fire behaviour , risk management…
After this incident I was hopeful that more WFF across the world would take a second look at their fire/tactics/location and say… Ummm… We are in a bad spot here boys, lets get out of here…
Then Twisp occurred…
Guess I was wrong..
Whoops posted in the wrong place…again.
Bob,
Good info, but…I didn’t say we didn’t do that, I just said I had never heard the expression “bring the black with you” which I like so much I am going to use it in the book I will never finish AND give my readers the impression I thought it up, because….what the fuck will they know anyway?
Everyone but us still thinks the Big Bad Fire is responsible for the deaths of the crew. We just always called it from our training, “one foot in the black.”
I am interested in the regional differences between hotshot crews, like some of the vernacular.
Did you guy’s use “didi mau most ricky tick MF?”
And of course I now expect my “WFF Death Shrouds c” will be picked up to be the new term for fire shelters.
Rocksteady said, “I think the crew had it so ingrained in their brains that when an entrapment occurs, that you automatically “deploy shelters”… Maybe, running away could have helped. I doubt it because of the nature of the fire behavior. It would have scattered corpses out over a bigger area.”
Thank you, and you and Bob very well may be right, maybe running would have just have met their bodies were scattered BUT…once again, I am just suggesting that the WFF training be expaneded to include the “How Big Is Big Enough” concept because I think WFF can think AND chew gun at the SAME time.
And now that they have obviously gotten it through to WFF to crawl under the WFF Death Shrouds c, maybe they will be agreeable to now training everyone to consider whether or not they are deploying in an area that is SURVIVABLE?
I didn’t dream up the “How Big Is Big Enough Concept” some USFS brainiacts did that. I am just trying to get their work noticed. I guess that is my objective through this entire ordeal, maybe that’s how I think I can feel better and that maybe the crew will not have “died in vain” as we are so fond of saying as a culture after some really pointless and terrible deaths.
**
** YARNELL FIRE CHIEF JIM KOILE TOOK A PHOTO OF THE FIRE JUST NINE
** MINUTES AFTER THE LIGHTNING STRIKE… AND HE GAVE IT TO ADOSH.
>> On February 7, 2016 at 9:24 am, Sonny said…
>>
>> It would seem obvious to any investigator with any brain at all that you would want
>> photos of that spot, not just people’s assertion that they saw a lightening strike and
>> smoke soon thereafter. If that indeed were the source we want to see those photos
>> as well considering the magnitude of this fire and its historical significance.
>> On February 7, 2016 at 11:29 pm, WTKTT replied…
>>
>> Yes… and it still seems ‘not credible’ that no one involved with either the
>> Peeples Valley Fire Department *or* the Yarnell Fire Department *or* the
>> Congress Fire Department would not have taken at least ONE photo of
>> where this ‘smoke’ was being seen up there on Friday afternoon.
>>
>> More ‘evidence’ that MIGHT exist that has never seen the light of day, perhaps?
UPDATE: I was right.
Other than the photo that Joy and Sonny say a citizen took of the original lighting strike fire… there is at least ONE other KNOWN PHOTOGRAPH that was taken by a fire department employee.
Yarnell Fire Chief Jim Koile apparently took a photo of the fire just 9 ( NINE ) minutes after the original lightning strike… and he gave a copy of it to ADOSH.
From ADOSH document…
“L3419 Notes redacted.pdf”
On PDF page 2 ( of 10 pages )…
—————————————————————————————————-
7/18/2013 – An opening conference was conducted with the Yarnell Fire District/Yarnell Fire Department on July 18, 2013 at 1005 by Marshall Krotenberg and Bruce Hanna with Fire Chief Jim Koile. Chief Koile completed an information sheet and provided a photo that he took of the lightning caused fire at the time of the lightning strike.
—————————————————————————————————-
The standard ADOSH/OSHA Employer ‘Information Sheet’ referred to above that was ‘completed’ by YFD Chief Jim Koile appears in another ADOSH document…
“L3419 YFD, Peeples Valley, CYFD field notes redacted.pdf”
Chief Koile’s handwritten ‘Information Sheet’ is on PDF page 12 ( of 32 pages ). It is ‘dated’ ( by hand ) with the exact same ‘date’ and ‘time’ as the notes above ( in the other document ) say it should have… 7/18/13 ( 10:05 AM ).
Right after that, on PDF page 14 of the same document, the actual ‘Opening Conference’ log sheet also referred to up above is also printed in THIS other document. And just like the ‘notes’ above… it lists the ‘attendees’ at this July 18, 2013 ‘Opening Conference’ as Marshall Krotenberg (ADOSH), Jim Hanna (ADOSH) and YFD Chief Jim Koile.
The handwritten ADOSH ‘Field Notes’ for that ‘Opening Conference’ with Chief Koile ( starting on PDF page 18 ) that are at the very TOP of the page say…
– Chief Koile / Opening Conference / Information Sheet Completed.
– Lightning strike (starts) fire (on) ridge… 1740 / ( 5:40 PM ) June 28, 2013
– 6/28/13 photograph / Unknown GPS / 5:49 PM
So if I’m reading those ADOSH ‘Field Notes’ correctly… the PHOTOGRAPH that YFD Chief Jim Koile handed to ADOSH during that ‘Conference’ with him was taken at 5:49 PM… just 9 ( NINE ) minutes after the lightning strike, and it must be showing some kind of ‘smoke’ already at that exact location out there on the ridge.
But that PHOTOGRAPH has never seen the light of day.
It was NOT ‘reproduced’ in this document detailing the ‘Opening Conference’ with Koile, it does NOT appear in any of ADOSH’s officially released ‘reports’ or accompanying ‘photos and documentation’… and it does NOT appear anywhere in the full ADOSH Investigation ‘package’ that was later released to the public via FOIA request(s).
ADOSH must still have it.
TYPO above.
I meant to type ‘Bruce Hanna’ in a place where I typed ‘Jim Hanna’.
Sentence above should have read like this…
“.Just like the ‘notes’ above… it lists the ‘attendees’ at this July 18, 2013 ‘Opening Conference’ as Marshall Krotenberg (ADOSH), Bruce Hanna (ADOSH) and YFD Chief Jim Koile”.
Random Thoughts for the Day (aka – Excerpts from the book I will never finish but I am writing here in dribs and drabs.)
If you have read my last few posts, you already know that my favorite bone to chew on right now is the subject of new and improved fire shelters. Which translates to me into bigger and heavier fire shelters that will encourage increasingly risky behavior among wildland firefighters.
I used this particular example a long time ago on this thread, but just in case you have forgotten it or are new to the thread in the past couple of years (yes…it has gone on that long) I am going to repeat it. And as usual, I apologize that many of my examples reflect my my most recent career choice…law enforcement, but we teach what we learn.
A few years ago (which is now at least a couple of decades or more) the California Highway Patrol (CHP) transitioned from Harley Davidson motorcycles to those made by the Bavarian Motor Works (BMW). It was felt at the time that the new BMW motorcycles would reduce injuries to motor officers which are rampant because the new motorcycles were lighter, had a more advanced braking system, and were more responsive (quicker and faster) and handled better.
But that didn’t happen. Why…you might ask? Well…according to the information that was passed on to me in a training session, so it had to be true, is that CHP motor officers in general were so happy and excited about their new high tech motorcycles they went faster and took more chances, so their injury rate remained the same and actually went up in some cases.
I believe that is exactly what happened after fire shelters were introduced in the first place. As I have written before, the proponents of fire shelters like to say that, “fire shelters have saved hundreds of lives since they were introduced.” Really…does anybody truly believe that if fire shelters would have never been introduced the fatality rate among wildland firefighters would have gone up from dozens to hundreds? I don’t think so…do you? That is just one more example of the hyperbole that is used by the proponents of fire shelters to sell them to those on the fire line. Which I think in dangerous rhetoric and has actually cost lives…not just harmless hyperbole.
I am not saying anything new in this post, I am just putting some things together for myself in my own head even if it is not for others (YOU). And in this moment of clarity, I want to emphasize once again what the statistics actually are. But first, I am going to make a bold declarative statement that I dare anybody to argue with (no…really, if you think I have this wrong, please post why).
“No wildfire has been the primary casual factor in the death of a single hotshot in the history of hotshot crews.”
And to support that statement I am going to (once again) run down the statistics as I calculate them. And once again, I am only going to address hotshot deaths, not because I only care about hotshots, but that is all I know and the fires that hotshots have died on are the only fires I am a student of.
Therefore, I am going to leave it to others to make a determination if fire shelters could have saved other wildland firefighters who were killed by wildfires that may have been the primary casual factor in those deaths. It sounds like RTS for example, has studied dozens of wildfires and if familiar with the circumstances surrounding many other WFF deaths but I have not.
And FYI…WFF trivia, the reason we always say the name of the fire and the year in which it occurred is because common names for fires are used every year to differentiate them. But each name can only be used once (within a geographic area) every year. The BLM used to number their fires rather than name them so the Battlement Creek Fire was originally named Fire 1173, but I guess they must have gotten away from that practice at some point when I wasn’t paying very close attention?
The Loop Fire of 1966 killed 12 El Cariso Hotshots including the crew boss, when he accepted an assignment to build fire line in a steep chute ABOVE the fire after other hotshot crew bosses had already refused to do so due to safety concerns. Therefore I attribute the primary casual factor in the deaths on the Loop Fire to what I like to call, “Crew Boss Hubris.”
The Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 killed 3 Mormon Lake Hotshots, which included the crew boss and seriously burned a fourth member of the crew. The crew boss kept a three man burn out team to finish burning out the hand line they had constructed ABOVE the backfire that was started below them. The crew boss made this decision even after he recognized the danger they were in and had sent to bulk of his crew to their safety zone. Therefore, I attribute the primary casual factor in the deaths on the Battlement Creek Fire to what I like to call, “Crew Boss Hubris.”
The South Canyon Fire, which was erroneously named because they initially thought it was in the South Canyon, and later became commonly known as the Storm King Mountain Fire killed 9 Prineville Hotshots, an entire squad which included the squad boss. In addition to the hotshots who were killed, five others died which included the jumper-in-charge (JIC).
Neither the crew boss nor the assistant crew boss where with their squad because they had sent them to work under the supervision of a smokejumper who was serving as the alternating incident commander (IC). Earlier in this thread I wrote these hotshots died from “IC Stupidity” because of my passion for this subject…at least that is my excuse and I am sticking with it.
But that is not entirely fair to the memory of the IC or JIC,whichever he was, so I am going to officially amend that and blame the “Stupidity of the BLM”, whose policy designates the first smokejumper out of the airplane as the person in charge of the fire rather than the most qualified or competent firefighter as the IC. I suppose there is an entire discussion that could he had here pertaining to whether hubris was also involved in these deaths or not? Should the JIC have admitted he was in over his head and requested someone with more experience take over?
But in the interest of brevity in this format, I am simply going to say that it was stupidity that killed these firefighters because they kept constructing hand line ABOVE the fire even after some of them expressed concerns regarding this tactic. It is my opinion that the reason they were constructing hand line above the fire working down towards the fire in the first place is quite simple. That is where they started from…,above the fire because that is where they ended up because they were smokejumpers and that is where they landed. The hotshots who were flown into the fire by helicopter where also ended up above the fire because that is where the smokejumpers already where.
Therefore, they used very simple logic to forge their fire plan, forget all about the rules and common sense. If they would have hiked in from the bottom like good hotshots from the interstate freeway that was running right below the fire, well then…they would have started constructing hand line in the right place which was below the fire and then they could have flanked it as they worked up as is almost always done. At least it is always done by those who want to be around to go to the next fire.
Finally, we have the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013, which killed nineteen hotshots including the crew boss. And I think all of you know that story as well as I do by now and I am tired of typing, so I am going to keep this one brief. I attribute the primary casual factor in the deaths on the Yarnell Hill Fire to what I like to call, “Crew Boss Hubris.”
So…here is the point of my post, on all of the wildfires on which hotshots were killed, the fire itself was not the primary casual in their deaths. And although it is true they died from the heat and other effects of the fire, it was human factors that really killed them.
Therefore, until the wildland firefighting community recognizes and accepts that human factors, primarily hubris, is the number one cause of hotshot fatalities, they will only be treating the symptoms and not the disease itself. And that is why I believe it is a waste of time and money to develop a better fire shelter and may actually trigger the law of unintended consequences that will actually lead to more deaths because hotshots will still manage find a way to kill themselves.
I think it’s safe to include the Twisp Fire of 2015 in there as well.
3 U.S. Forestry Firefighters burned to death… one survived but remains
disfigured and they had to cut off the tips of all his fingers.
They were sent up a residential road to work ABOVE a dynamic, uncontained wildfire to protect EMPTY HOUSES.
We still don’t know WHO sent them up there… but they accepted the assignment.
Their ‘escape route’ was essentially BETWEEN them and the actively burning fire, and was going to be the first thing to burn over if the fire changed direction… which is exactly what happened.
The wind shift that took place and reversed the fire was predicted, and had already happened the day before at the same exact time.
So yea… hard to say the fire itself caused those deaths, either.
GARY—-You might want to recheck the Loop Fire.
The Superintendent/Crew Boss was not killed he survived the burn over
I cant remember if he suffered any burns. His last name was KING.
Otherwise good research.
On Fire Shelters many of us in the 60’s fought fires before they were ever introduced.
Many of us including your first Superintendent did not trust them.
We planed to never use them and that is why you will find little mention of their use
from 1965 to 1985. Some where around there is when the old dogs started leaving
and with them went the old and true concept of always use the 10 and 13.
Also with them went the old fire organization and the new ICS was formed.
Thank you Bob, and yes that is very important whether or the crew boss was killed, maybe that was just an assumption on my part.
And yes, just to fill in some of more blanks, the Loop Fire occurred before fire shelters were being used by anybody? Or at least by the El Cariso Hotshots because didn’t you say you started carrying one in 1964?
And the Battlement Creek Fire happened after fire shelters were supposed to be carried but weren’t because our fire gods didn’t believe in them either and as point of irony, fire shelters most likely would have saved the Mormon Lake Hotshots from themselves because the one survivor did survive being burned over even with having his Nomex shirt burned off his back. We also did not wear Nomex trousers at the time due to the perceived cost of the fire retardant pants.
And if I understand what happened on the South Canyon Fire, panic, the failure to drop their tools and other gear except for their shelters while running, and perhaps the absence of a suitable deployment site meant that none (?) of those who died had the time or the presence of mind to fully deploy their shelters.
So…the point being, I think it is safe to say that suits like Red Adair wore would not have saved the Prineville Hotshots.
1966 was the loop fire but even with shelters they had no time the flames and hot gasses blew up thru the chimney before they could do any thing.
It was truly a gas ignition and caught half the crew crossing the top of the
Chimney. All FS Fire red Carded personnel were carrying Fire shelters in 1965 and on in R5. I am sure but could not say definitely El Cariso had them
at that time.
OK, thanks, I haven’t been able to figure that one out, so I have been going on the assumption that since I can’t find that they WERE, then they were not?
Bob,
It looks like you are right. This report lists Gordon King as among the seriously injured but not among the dead. Thanks.
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr1/lsr1_investigative_report.pdf
Bob,
1. This report say’s Oak Grove was on the fire…were you on the crew later?
2. It also say’s protective suits or tents would have lessened the burns but it says they probably would not have saved those who died, so it sounds like they did not have fire shelters?
3. This report say’s 10 died on the fire and one died later at a hospital for a total of 11. But I am pretty sure the Loop Fire Staff ride say;s 2 died later at the hospita for a total of 12 dead?.
Yep, that;s what the Staff Ride say’s, two died later for a total of twelve. It also says 19 survivors were badly burned and that temperatures reached 2500 degrees. Did hotshot crews back then have 30?
Yes the California HS all Started with 30 then in 1971 cut t0 25.
Oak grove had 20 Crew members a EMT and 4 Supervisors when I was there 72 & 73. Super., Asst, Super, 2 Crew Bosses.
we shifted the extra position around quite a bit use it in severial different functions. Took our cook with us as well and he worked in fire camp. That was also the time when even Type 2 Crews had 25.
Yes Oak Grove was there as well as Chilao Both Sups refused the assignment and king went gungho. The fire did just what the Sups said it might.
Pete Traillo said The fucking Idiots and king would not listen.
Pete was a Navaho Indian who worked his way up to HS Superintendent. One tough SOB. he was a great friend of mine
and yanked me out on severial fires with the crew. Was killed in a car accident in 1969.
Back then while we had the Shelters we only had the Orange Treated Fire shirts after severial washings they were no good.
I doubt any thing would have done them any good with what happened.
Gary,
Thanks for sharing all the research.
The narrator of the FIre Shelter training video says (paraphrasing) that since they were designed, ‘fire shelters are responsible for saving hundreds of lives and preventing hundreds of injuries.’
That MAY be true only because a lot of other factors could have also saved those WFF lives. Thanks for pointing out the absurdity of all this blather.
I’m here to tell you that knowing, understanding, and applying the WFF Rules and mitigating the Watch Out Situations are responsible for saving TENS OF THOUSAND OF WFF LIVES EVERY SINGLE FIRE SEASON.
If you deploy a fire shelter, somebody messed up. The fire does NOT sneak up on you or catch you by surprise unless you are not following the basic WFF Rules.
It really is that simple.
Here is a 2015 NWCG “Fire Shelter Training Reminder”
https://www.nifc.gov/fireShelt/fireShel_publications/FireShelterTrainingReminders.pdf
“Safety Zones — You cannot determine the true effectiveness of a safety zone until after the fire passes. If you are uncertain about
a safety zone, be prepared to deploy your shelter.”
REALLY? This is telling us we have to wait until ‘AFTER THE FIRE PASSES’ to determine if it was effective or not. Definitely WTF? A little late don’t ya think?
The ‘reminder’ does go into some detail on what what and how much protection fire shelters are supposed to provide UNDER LABORATORY CONDITIONS.
More Safety Zone research to consider.
This 2015 USDA Fire, Fuel, and Smoke Science (Rocky Mountain Research Station) program with Dr. Bret Butler as the Principal Investigator and Jason Forthofer as Research Staff, suggest using FUEL HEIGHT INSTEAD OF FLAME HEIGHT. These men are highly intelligent and highly competent individuals.
http://www.firelab.org/project/firefighter-safety-zones
“Preliminary guideline”
“The following is a preliminary product from this effort. It is based on limited data and simulations. It is presented as a place holder until further analysis can be completed.”
“Based on current findings relative to energy transport from wildland fire in the presence of slope and wind, the following safety zone rule is proposed.”
“The calculation also will be BASED ON VEGETATION HEIGHT RATHER THAN FLAME HEIGHT.”
Basing the size calculation on vegetation height requires LOTS of factors, e.g. Air Temperature, Relative Humidity, Dew Point, Wind, and Soil Moisture, which all determine Fuel Moisture to name just a few.
Many of us have argued that this will work for those with the experience to know on this day at this time under these conditions in this fuel type in this fuel height there will be “X” flame lengths, BTU’s, whatever.
But it will likely NOT work as well or at all for those with limited experience or what we call “slides” of former fire behavior from past experiences.
It’s short so worth the read and it has several links to other research on Safety Zones.
Well…I guess it is complicated but I am pretty sure there are people out there who can up with something better than what they were putting out the last time I heard it and apparently are still putting out there according to the video you posted.
RTS,
Thanks for the link. Interesting.
One thing I didn’t mention and they did in your reference, is required size based on number of personnel or equipment,etc, Obviously the numbers I put up which were based on flame height and radiant heat only and for a single wff in the middle as the required distance, None of these quantified areas account for numerous wff’s and/or equipment/ engines etc.
There are so many variables involved they just don’t know how to size them across the board with a pocket guide.
Good clean black is looking better and better all the time.
I’m thinking back to various safety zones I’ve seen identified over the years and believe a lot of them wouldn’t have done squat for us. I remember one in particular that we yanked the crew out of after being ordered to stage there because I didn’t trust it. Turns out it was a good call (actually joint decision with the crew boss as I was an assistant at the time). When observing the aftermath on the next shift of this ‘safety zone’, it was obviously ‘not the place to be’ even in a shelter.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Here’s as video by Dr. Bret Butler titled ‘ Latest Research on Estimating Safety Zones’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW8AMbmifOA
He explains ‘Vegetation Height’ at about 4:05 as being Flame Height equals two times the vegetation height.
Or in a formula as Fh = 2 x Vh, excluding wind and slope
.
At about 4:25 he goes into more detail on using the original Flame Height times the Vegetation Height for the Separation Distance.
Good video
RTS,
Thanks. I’ll check it out.
Question for you: What do you think of the idea of throwing the whole idea of a safety zone in the crapper altogether? (along with ol’ shake and bake) You know, since we can’t really figure out how big they need to be that is consistent, reliable, and field adaptable? How about ‘one foot in the black’ as the only standard?
Mr. Butler has been working on figuring out what a proper safety is for some time now. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Woodsman
Yes, that is the big advantage WFF have over wildfire. It has to follow the laws of nature and physics and can’t THINK. So…we should win every time.
And I have posted this link a couple of times already over the past couple of years but here it is again just in case anybody (like me) wants to know how big, big enough would have been for the GMIHC.
And like have said before, I would be the last one to be nitpicking on their choice of a deployment site except it wasn’t a close call. Given the flame lengths and temperatures, it was obviously not a survivable site.
And like I keep harping on, if they site were you are thinking about deploying a fire shelter is NOT survivable, you must run and at least die on your feet moving away from the flames while hoping for a better place to make your last stand.
And yes, I have read the argument that was the best they had, to which I say, if the best you have guarantees you die a very horrible death, who wouldn’t want to at least try for something better?
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/fmn58-1.pdf
I calculated the area they would have needed last year, but like I said before on this thread math was never one of my strengths. While going to college I utilized my “71 gets me a badge and a gun” strategy for all of my non electives and non criminal justice course.
And it worked out okay…more or less. So…let’s work on math and graph interpretation problem together and resolve once and for all just how hopeless their choice really was. You give your answers first (WTKTT) and then I will tell you whether or not your answer agrees with mine.
I think we can use 60 foot flames (nearly vertical) and a temperature of 2000 degrees for our calculations…right?
The “How Big Is Big Enough” concept is in an obscure article in an obscure publication that I bet has never seen the light of day in ANY training session, I am especially going to take all bets that the concept was NOT in the GMIHC lesson plans. If it was, how could they have died where they did?
Oh…and one more thing. Scroll down to page 13.
The best they had was to stay where they were in the black.
Under any calculation The BSR was not a good SZ. The BSR building construction was the only reason that the main structures did not burn.
Agreed, but I am curious how big of a deployment zone that realistically needed under those circumstances…since that is where they ended up.
According to my numbers, it was a BIG one to escape serioius burns
I would guess 200×300 Ft and it would have still been marginal.
That is one reason the should never have gone their it was a death trap if there was even a 5% chance the fire would get to them before the got to the ranch.
So no…that is why this concept needs to be harped on in training. A lot of WFF aren’t any better than I am at graph interpretation and math but we can understand the basic concept if it is taught in a workshop setting with some examples on the board and in an interactive discussion and problem solving exercise..
And one reason I am having a problem with trusting my calculations is because the convective heat they experienced is an x factor but I think it was very significant because of the nearly horizontal flames and the very high temperatures which I am not sure how to convert to BTU’s? So we may not be able to figure it out with much accuracy except to say they needed a lot bigger one?
Gary,
Like you said there are lots of variables here to consider before coming up with a safety zone size required. I skimmed the link (thanks, I’ll def keep reading) and came up with a circle of 4.5 acres. That’s just with a 60 flame length and radiant heat.
Even though I’m confident that this size would have need to be a lot larger than this when considering all the factors, we can already see that it is a huge area. I’m talking face down in the dirt with full PPE….4.5 acre circle cleared.
I’ll keep pondering, Thanks for the link!
Woodsman
Right on, How did you figure in the convective hear? Or were you able to?
And I would like to give WTKTT another assignment (see, I WAS a manager). Can you remind us of how big the GMIHC deployment site was…please? About the size of a three car garage?
Gary,
I didn’t consider anything but flame length and radiant heat. The size is only going up from there. Slope, topography, etc.
Woodsman
And I don’t want to obsess any more over this than I already am, but the fire backing down the slope at them would have been bad enough, but once the fire hooked them from below and then came racing up that drainage, it would have been beyond absolutely terrifying and the convective heat would have been off the charts…I am guessing.
The biggest factor was the Canyon they were in absolutely
unbelievable heat and the flame lengths may have been twice the 60 feet. I am not so sure than even in the Rocks the superheated air may have been to hot to breath?????
Bob,
You are probably right……makes the required safety zone 16.6 acres…circular…960 feet across. This of course does not factor anything but radiant heat and flame height.
From 4.5 acres to 16.6 acres with a doubling of flame height.
Woodsman
One more thing. I’ve always liked good clean black when working on a fire but this discussion is taking my love affair with it to a new level. I’m going to make it my mistress from now on. Even though that means that I now have to take it to dinner, buy it flowers, and pay a lot of attention to it, I think it will be worth it. Hell, I may just go ahead and marry it despite the real possibility of it finding out I’m a hot-headed jerk, divorce me and take half my stuff. It’s the kind of love where I just don’t care about any of that.
I’m going ring shopping first thing in the a.m.
Woodsman
You won’t go home in a body bag.
Indirect line is when you hang your ass out there.
When I was on a Fire there was no other plan than into the black and as we always said bring the black with you.
Stay out of canyons……
Gary,
WAIT!!! I have the answer!………………………………..
bigger than a tennis court.
Woodsman
Like the one Willis selected for his WFF?
Gary,
That was pure coincidence…………………………naw, that’s a lie. Cheap shot at Willis is more true. I’m a bad person.
Woodsman
ps: a regulation tennis court is 36′ x 78′ or 2,808 sq ft. An acre being 43,560 sq ft a tennis court is 0.06 of 1 acre. Maybe it was a whole freakin’ bunch of tennis courts grouped together? Let’s see 2 would be 0.12 ac, 4 would be 0.24 ac, 6 would be 0.36 ac…………….ah fuck it, no sense going further…a tennis court is too fucking small for a serious wildfire.
…..and I know face down in the dirt is not a requirement for a safety zone to be a safety zone. A safety zone is defined as an area where a shelter is not needed to survive.
I was noting in your link that it meant survivable without burn injury near the ground.
Side note: good clean black makes a great safety zone and often can meet this requirement to be very large.
Woodsman
OK, thanks, and like you said, it is really going to really go up given the convective heat from that fire storm that was being pushed by the wind coming out of that cell. I am guessing the slope wasn’t that great but they were on a rise between two drainages (I think) which certainly would not have helped.
Maybe WTKTT knows or can find a magic formula? He hasn’t weighed in yet. And like I keep saying, I know RTS is pretty darn smart from the old days, which is not to say that you are not, it’s just that I am looking for a consensus from everyone who cares to give an opinion.
And yes, the point of this exercise is to prove that the system (the NWCG and others) are responsible for a contributing casual factor in the deaths of the crew, because I am still betting this concept was NOT in their canned lesson plans just as it wasn’t in mine.
And in my opinion, simply telling someone to look for the best deployment site and then give some examples of what makes a good deployment site…IS NOT SUFFICIENT and does not fit my definition of DUE DILIGENCE!
As in, ” 1.General: Measure of prudence, responsibility, and diligence that is expected from, and ordinarily exercised by, a reasonable and prudent person under the circumstances.”
.
I can’t emphasize enough how important I think this point is. I literally trained dozens if not close to two hundred hotshots on how to use a fire shelter after they were first introduced to us in 1977 (other than as a space blanket or poncho substitute) and it never even OCCURRED to me that if a deployment site of sufficient size is NOT available and especially if it is not a close call without using a calculator…you MUST run.
Therefore, I never taught any of those I trained that such a concept even existed. The thought never entered my mind until I accidentally found this obscure article and an even more obscure publication and as of yet, no one has weighed in here and said anything to the effect, “yes, but I taught that, it was common sense, you were just an unusually dumb shit.” If that’s the case, tell me, I have been told a lot worse. I can take it as well as I can dish it out.
NO BODY TRAINED ON WHAT A DEPLOYMENT SITE SHOULD LOOK LIKE JUST AS OPEN AS YOU COULD FIND AND A LAST RESORT THAT MAY OR MAY NOT SAVE YOUR ASS—– YOU ALLREADY FUCKED UP— SO DO NOT GET IN THAT SITUATION EVER.
Sorry my training memory kicked in—- and then I said memorize these 10 standard orders because for the next month I will ask you to state each one. And then I started the 10 and 13 training.
Or— Gary you are right no one knew or was ever told how big is big enough for a deployment site.
This is a link for the book ” The Worst of Days – Inside the Black Saturday Firestorm” by Karen KIssane.
http://karenkissane.com/worst-of-days-inside-the-black-saturday-firestorm/
The parallels to the YH Fire are astounding, regarding organizational incompetence, lack of civilian notifications, explosive fire behavior, unprecedented rates of spread, and survivor tragedies for those left to deal with the aftermath even several YEARS later.
Joy and Sonny speak of HUNDREDS of local YH Fire survivors, so this would be an excellent book for YH Fire residents and extended families to read.
Reply to Sonny post on February 7, 2016 at 9:24 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> I saw no mention of finding the exact spot where the lightening struck that started
>> this fire. Considering that the annals of fire fighting disasters will put this at the top
>> of the list as one of the Worlds greatest avoidable fire fighting disaster, we would
>> want photos of that spot. Because of the historical significance of the Yarnell Wild
>> Fire and because it is purported that men were at the site within an hour after it
>> started, we need to find that exact spot the lightening struck.
>>
>> This information might be available. If so no mention has been made of it
>> anywhere I know of.
Given the absence of any PHOTOS from Friday afternoon, June 28, 2013, the best evidence that exists for the ACTUAL ‘origin’ of the fire are those GPS coordinates that were ‘called in’ by Air Attack Rory Collins, after he ‘flew the fire’ on Friday afternoon, just 1 hour and 24 minutes after it was first reported.
Here is the very first report of the fire, as per the ‘Dispatch Records’…
From PDF page 14 of the ‘I-Dispatch Records.pdf’ document…
————————————————————————————————–
Entry Date/Time: 06/28/2013 17:40:58 ( 5:40:58 PM, Friday, June 28, 2016 )
From: CON
To: CH
Details: ACTUAL VISUAL OF LIGHTNING STRIKE ON YARNELL HILL WITH 3 CONFIRMED CALLS BEST ACCESS WILL BE THE TOWN OF YARNELL TOWNSHIP AND RANGE IS 10N 5W SECTION 20
————————————————————————————————–
They had no GPS coordinates at first. Just an estimated ‘Township’ and ‘Range’, which turned out to be WAY OFF. That was a spot SOUTH of Yarnell and almost towards Congress… which happened to be on BLM land.
That is why there was that ‘dual response’ to the fire on Friday from both BLM representative Dean Fernandez and Arizona Forestry watch commander Russ Shumate. There was confusion about whether it was on BLM land or State Land… so BOTH of them responded ( on Friday afternoon ).
Rory Collins was the Air Attack flying what was left of the ‘Doce’ fire up near Prescott that afternoon… and he was asked to ‘fly down’ to Yarnell to take a look at this ‘lightning strike’.
He did that… only 1 hour and 24 minutes after the fire was first reported.
At 7:05:49 PM on Friday evening, June 28, 2016… the following ‘actual’ coordinates for the 5:40:58 PM lightning strike were reported and officially appeared in the Yarnell Fire ‘Dispatch Log’…
—————————————————————————-
Entry Date/Time: 06/28/2013 19:05:49
From: Steve
To: PDC WR
Details: Lat Long 34 13.7 x 112 47.5. fire plots on state 0.25 to 0.50 acres. 80% is out and is active on one corner. low spread potential no values @ risk and 88P is talking to 1-4
——————————————————————————
That corresponds to GPS ‘Decimal’ values…
34.22833, -112.7915
This MATCHES EXACTLY the point that would then (eventually) be listed as the ‘Actual’ original location of the fire at the top of the Dispatch logs, which was…
As per the top of PDF page 16 of the ‘I-Dispatch Records.pdf’ file…
————————————————————————————
Actual Fire Start Location ( Confirmed 07/02/2013 15:35 ):
Lat: 34°, 13.698″, Lon: 112°, 47.49″, T10N, R5W, NENE Sec 8
————————————————————————————
Decimal GPS for ‘Actual’ fire start location is ALSO…
34.2283, -112.7915
I don’t know what the ‘Confirmed 07/02/2013 15:35′ entry means. It might mean that someone did something to actually CONFIRM Rory Collins’ intial coordinates on July 2, 2013, either by going up there themselves or just confirming that with HIM, or maybe even ‘confirming’ those coordinates with the Lewis Crew, who would be up there the next morning ( Saturday morning ).
If you just ‘cut and paste’ that line above with those coordinates ( including the comma ) into the Search bar of Google Maps… you will see a little ‘red balloon’ on that exact spot up there just to the west of the two-track on the Weavers.
OR… just click the following link and you’ll see the same thing…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'41.9%22N+112%C2%B047'29.4%22W/@34.2283044,-112.7936887,766m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0
Obviously Air Attack Rory Collins did not LAND up there and verify the EXACT spot the lightning struck… but these coordinates have to be very, very close. They DO match other photographic evidence from Dean Fernandez that was taken first thing the next morning.
So I would guess close enough to be within 20 or 30 feet of where the lightning actually struck that Friday afternoon. Maybe less. Might actually be ‘spot on’.
Until there are PHOTOGRAPHS from Friday afternoon to compare with these coordinates… that’s about as close as anyone can get to the fire’s actual ‘origin’.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> It would seem obvious to any investigator with any brain at all that you would want
>> photos of that spot, not just people’s assertion that they saw a lightening strike and
>> smoke soon thereafter. If that indeed were the source we want to see those photos
>> as well considering the magnitude of this fire and its historical significance.
Yes… and it still seems ‘not credible’ that no one involved with either the Peeples Valley Fire Department *or* the Yarnell Fire Department *or* the Congress Fire Department would not have taken at least ONE photo of where this ‘smoke’ was being seen up there on Friday afternoon.
More ‘evidence’ that MIGHT exist that has never seen the light of day, perhaps?
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> There is still some chance that the place can be found even after the two year lapse.
>> I have seen lightening strikes that are many years aged if on a tree and even in rock
>> or dirt you can find fulgerites (fused sand or dirt from the heat of lightening).
Absolutely true.
If you know what to look for… you can find ‘evidence’ of a ‘lightning strike’ even YEARS after it happened.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> If anyone has such photos, knows of the same or knows of an exact mark of where
>> this fire started then please post it. If there is a GPS point stated we can get within
>> a few feet of its place with GPS and get photos of that for the citizens whom have
>> paid so dearly for this fire.
See above. Those GPS coordinates really DO seem like they are within maybe 20 or 30 feet ( in any given direction ) or LESS from where the fire actually started on Friday afternoon.
The origin was approximately 150 FEET due west of a 2-track road? What type of vehicle would be needed to gain access on this 2-track?
Thanks for your great work, WTKTT.
Woodsman
Any ATV/UTV.
Possibly even a small 4×4 vehicle.
The roads leading up there were, in fact, labelled ‘Jeep Trails’ on the map(s).
And right at the TOP of the official Arizona Dispatch Center ‘Log’ that was started at 5:40 PM on Friday for the Yarnell Hill Fire… we find entries that have ALWAYS indicated what Sonny and Joy have been saying all along.
That someone ( or more ) persons DID ‘go up there’ on Friday afternoon.
Other early Dispatch Log shows conversation with Norval Tyler and Congress Fire Department indicating members of Yarnell Fire Department were, in fact, “trying to into it”.
There’s even always been an ‘entry’ in the logs that Arizona Forestry IC Russ Shumate was TOLD to let Congress FD go on up to the fire if they thought they could… and Shumate said “OK”…
The following 3 log entries are ‘sequential’ in the Dispatch logs…
————————————————————————–
Date/Time: 06/28/2013 17:55:28
From: CH
To: RUSS
Detail: UPDATED // IF CONGRESS THINKS THAT THEY CAN GET UP TO IT THEN HAVE THEM GO // OK ( Shumate’s response )
————————————————————————–
Date/Time: 06/28/2013 17:55:49
From: STEVE-PDC
To:: KM
Detail: ARE YOU SENDING ANY AIR RESOURCES TO YARNELL?// NEGATIVE, I HEARD THAT THE DOCE AA WAS HEADED THAT WAY.// WE’RE GOING TO TRY AND BREAK THEM LOOSE FROM THE WEST SPRUCE AND GRAB A LAT/LONG FOR YOU // COPY
————————————————————————-
Date/Time: 06/28/2013 17:58:48
From: NORVAL ( Norval Tyler at Arizona Dispatch Center )
To: CONGRESS
Detail: ASKED IF THEY HAD EYES ON THE FIRE AND IF THEY COULD GET TO
IT // LOOKS LIKE A HIKE SHOW 5W 10N SECTION 21 HEARD YARNELL IS TRYING TO HIKE INTO IT ADVISED IF THEY CAN’T GET TO IT THEN JUST STAND BY AND UTILIZE LATER
—————————————————————————
Norval = Norval Tyler, Lead Dispatch for Arizona Dispatch Center
Notice this entry…
“LOOKS LIKE A HIKE SHOW 5W 10N SECTION 21”
Is that proof that even as early as 17:58:48 ( 5:58:48 PM )… someone had ALREADY ‘hiked’ to the fire and confirmed its location?
And how do we get from these official Arizona Dispatch Center LOG entries showing that Russ Shumate was TOLD to let local FFs ‘go up there’ if they wanted to… and Shumate officially responds “Okay”…
…to the reports from the same local FFs that when they were offering to ‘go up there and take care of it’… Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate supposedly told them to “stand down”.
Was Shumate saying one thing ( “Okay” ) to Norval Tyler at Arizona Dispatch… and then turning around and telling the local firefighters ( to their face ) to “stand down”?
There’s still a big STORY here about what was going down on Friday afternoon/evening that has never been fully told.
The only comment I have here is That being at the fire to give its location.
5W 10N section 21 SOME ONE HAD ALREADY HIKED TO THE FIRE.
WTKTT—Any one who can read a map and the points of reference from a few specific points who was also familiar with the area could establish those coordinates it is not that hard and saying it is in sec.21 that’s 1 square mile area not a pin point location. You also have a well known hand gliding location that ended up as a Helispot. A definite point of reference to the fire.
I do not believe there had to be any one directly on the fire to give that
location. If they were there or knew the 2 track went to it which the map also shows then they would have directed others into the fire. And could have pinpointed the location on the map and given much more info on where it was.
I believe as dose Sonny they could have taken action that night and put resources on the fire at first light the next morning.
They had the opportunity to scout a route to the fire before dark Friday with a ATV on clearly marked trails. I am sure a number of locales including Sonny could have got to the Fire before dark. Or even at first light the next morning. They had the opportunity to contain the fire and lost it thru procrastination that night. Not even putting people on the fire till 1100 the 29th.
The old a proven fire policy —– 10 AM policy put people on the fire to contain it by 10 AM the next day.
Why 10 AM because that is when the Fire activity starts to increase again as the Temps increase and the Hum. decrease and local winds change from
down canyon to up canyon. Increased Fire activity.
The lack of concern on a uncontrolled fire at that time of year in that type of fuel in Arizona is just unbelievable to me.
OLD SCHOOL for years we attacked fires at first confirmed report we got there buy hiking, Riding horses Tot Goats Motor cycles and if lucky helicopters or Smoke jumpers we used the resources we had and we fought fires 24/7 Night or Day. Rocky hill sides or dense forests fire in the tops of trees or on the ground on rocky hill sides.
They all got a line around them. I could not even tell you the number of two or three person less than a Quarter Ac. Fires I have been on but it is in the Hundreds by horse by foot or any other means. I crossed the Kern river on a Cable car and hiked to fires.
Spent the nights containing or controlling them. We never left the fire till it was out and occasionally one FF would do the whole job by their self.
If one or more FF had got to the Yarnell Hill fire Then that is what they would have started doing.
After all of the above reminiscing I DO NOT THINK ANY FF EVER GOT TO THE FIRE THAT NIGHT. The coordinates were based on a map from some place outside of Yarnell.
Sonny says there were ATV’s at the fire. Could have been Locals, if they were FF I would be disgusted if they then took no action and left. There would have also been more information on them talking to Dispatch I would think.
WTKTT posted: “Norval = Norval Tyler, Lead Dispatch for Arizona Dispatch Center
Notice this entry…
“LOOKS LIKE A HIKE SHOW 5W 10N SECTION 21″
Is that proof that even as early as 17:58:48 ( 5:58:48 PM )… someone had ALREADY ‘hiked’ to the fire and confirmed its location?”
I think you are taking liberties with the ‘HIKE SHOW’ notation.
The term ‘HIKE SHOW’ does NOT indicate that anyone had already hiked into the fire. This is a common size-up response to a Dispatcher. It means only what it says, that there was limited access to this fire and was going to require hiking into it.
True But Funny Story
I don’t think I have told this one before in this format, but if I have, well…you know they say the memory is the second thing to go.
The first time I ever saw a fire shelter deployed was on the Indian Fire of 1976 on the Los Padres National Forest in R-5, California. During my time on the fire line in the 70’s and 80’s, spike camps were commonly used to eliminate travel time to the fire line by utilizing what was termed as, “Coyote Tactics.”
This strategy was very simple, stop cutting fire line and lay down in the dirt where you stopped working and go to sleep after eating a rat if you were lucky. Wake up in the morning, if you ever managed to go to sleep using your hardhat for a pillow because it was always so cold, that is what I remember most about being on fires. Working night shifts and getting really sweaty and then stop working and the cold night air, even on desert fires, made us miserable.
If you carried enough gear to keep you warm, you couldn’t function proficiently cutting line because of the weight and the bulk of the extra clothing. Which is just one more reason I don’t want to hear about fire shelters that will withstand 60 foot horizontal flame lengths at 2000 degrees. Give me a fucking military grade poncho to wrap up in with a high tech vest and I will be just fine…thank you. But forgive…once again I digress.
So anyway…there we were at the crack of dawn after the first shift on the Indian Fire and a couple of guys on our crew that had kept their fire shelters, deployed them at bedtime and wrapped up in them like they were space blankets.
I don’t know what all of those R-5 overhead and crews thought when they saw the knuckle draggers from Arizona wrapped up in fire shelters and looking very much like large baked potatoes, but our crew boss went ballistic. He made them fold them back up and get them back in their pouches ASAP. And that did not look like and easy thing to do so I was glad I had already thrown mine away.
The movie will not be accurate, but it will be INSPIRING…there won’t be a dry eye in the theater. I am getting inspired just thinking about it how red, white and blue collar it will be! .
And what difference will it make? It will not be any more of a fairy tale than the SAIR. Our shit-for-brains hapless hero has proven the truth doesn’t matter just as what’s his name by marketing “On The Burning Edge.”
And as I have said before, just wait until Santo’s book comes out, she is BFF’s with Mrs. Beno Marsh. They INSPIRED each other.
Sonny says
February 7, 2016 at 11:32 am
It is good to see that Joseph Kosinski has decided to make a movie of the Yarnell Hill Wildfire Catastrophy. I am one of the two civilian survivors who were at the fire edge that Sunday, June 30, 2013. Joy Collura was the other survivor who also instigated our hike at 3:30 am that put us there on top of the Weaver Mountains to alert prospectors of the fire even before the GMHS team arrived. Joy took over 1500 still photos of the fire that day that were published of both the men and even the spot where they perished that morning before the area burned.
To the area on the Weaver mountain we have hiked many authors including Josh Eells of Rolling stones/Mens Journal, John Dougherty of Investigative Media, Norbert Hoeffler of Stern magazine, Fernanda Santos, Phoenix NY times Editor (just released book on Yarnell Fire-“The Fire Line”), Fire Historian Stephen Pyne, author John McClean, Brian Mackenhaupt of Atlantic, Navideth Forghandi Channel 15 reporter for ABC’ NBC’s Kevin Kennedy Channnel 12 commentator, Dr. Ted Putnam, long time smoke jumper, now fire death investigator of previous tragedy at Storm King that killed 14 and investigator of Mann Gulch that killed 13, Morgan Loew, Phoenix Channel 5 news host and commentator, Ered Matthews who produced a play “The Fence”, Zack Ashoor of Phoenix member of Arizona Respiratory Board, former GMHS fire fighter Phillip “Mando” Mandanto, ADOSH investigators, marathon runner Bruce Hanna and Marshall Krotenberg, smoke jumper and former CIA agent Charley Mosely and his friends Dr. Ted Putnam and smoke jumper Johnny Kirkley. That is just a few of the people we have hiked along the trail that wanted to see where the men hiked and worked that we observed that Sunday.
We have kept abreast of the events of the fire as have investigators and long time fire fighters and investigators who write on John Daugherty’s “Investigative Media”. Long time investigators and wild land fire fighters such as Gary Olsen (also finishing a book on Yarnell Hill Fire), Bob Powers retired Wild Land Fire Boss and Authority, Robert the Second, experienced and Boss on Wild Land Fires, Norb Szczurek, wild land firefighter, and others that contribute to that site give us their take on what went down on that fatal day of June 30, 2013 that took the lives of 19 men. I will not forget to mention the man “Wants To Know The Truth”, aka WTKTT, who is an expert on the Yarnell Hill Fire with phenomenal recall and knowledge of events related to the fire along with Marti Reed, investigator and uncanny ability to dissect photos and information about the fire.
Do not forget that more than 74 people have died out of the 645 population of Yarnell since the fire. Many of those deaths are also directly related to the fire as much as the deaths of the GMHS. Mark Danielson is believed to be a suicide that walked into the hills and disappeared after borrowing a neighbors gun soon after the fire. Elderly have died, and we know that the ammonium sulphate and nitrate agent orange solution killed fish by the thousands when it was accidentally dumped in rivers. Here it was dumped to the tune of 30,000 gallons, most in close proximity to residences and even on top of many so we believe the lung cell killing NH3 gas and other trade secret chemicals had and indirect effect of killing many of the local elderly people.
We hope this information is presented to Joseph to help get the real story of the Yarnell Hill Fire. My name is “Sonny” Tex Gilligan. I too lost a son, so know the effects on loved ones of such a tragic event. Joy Collura, my long time hiking pal has a photographic memory of events that day and would be a great help to the events of that day, including our talk with Eric Marsh and photographs and times we talked and argued even at the point they left the two track to go down and we did not. Her memory and photos have been invaluable in tracking the events of that day.
We had left a rock monument at the point we last passed the men on the two track and Joy had photographed them on their way up to the fire edge where we had just left and talked with Eric Marsh. I have left many tears there on the many times we have hiked people past that spot. It is a great thing that a movie would be made of the event–Something that Ered Matthews of Prescott, AZ had envisioned when he made his play “The Fence” and the many people that paid attendance–Ered donated all the funds toward helping the loved ones of the tragedy.
Kudos to Director Joseph Kosinski for arranging a story about the Yarnell Hill Wild Fire Tragic Event. We believe the truth will save many future fire fighter’s lives, resident homes and resident lives, wild life and wild land resources, and millions in tax payer dollars. We hope also, knowing already the destructive chemicals in the slurry dumps that have killed thousands of fish and aquatic life, a more thorough investigation will be made of the health effects that concoction has on human life.
I asked Joy to move this post to the top. Reason is I believe many that read this will want to contact that movie maker Joseph to help him get the truth out. If done properly this movie will move the Fire Gods to do the right thing–tell the truth. But even more importantly it will spurn the general public to make sure public funds are expended where they are urgently needed. That includes better training and their facilities where little money is expended and where poor training was a huge factor in the GMHS deaths. Next is better communication devices, radios, etc., better pay checks for men risking these lives on wild land fires, better equipment, and finally more accountability and insurance that these men are protected with qualified supervisors having evidence with plenty experience and knowledge concerning wildfires and how to keep their men safe.
For general information: I forgot to add that the post here is a duplicate of what I had earlier posted on Movie Director Joseph’s web page and the Facebook page it is attached to.
Reply to Sonny post on February 7, 2016 at 3:39 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> I asked Joy to move this post to the top. Reason is I believe many
>> that read this will want to contact that movie maker Joseph to
>> help him get the truth out.
Based on the way Hollywood works… it looks like Ken Nolan ( who wrote the screenplay for ‘Black Hawk Down’ ) has ALREADY finished his ‘screenplay’ for this ‘No Exit’ thing… or the ‘funding’ wouldn’t be showing up ( which the articles say is happening… Molly Smith and her ‘Black Label Media’ group, etc. ).
So they already have the whole ‘package’, it would appear… and Kosinski has ‘signed on’ because Disney just pulled the plug on the TRON sequel.
A dollar gets you a sawbuck that they ALREADY know exactly what movie they are going to make… and what it’s going to say/show.
If they are going to actually START ‘filming’ in the summer… then it’s an even safer bet they already have the whole ‘package’… ‘story boards’ included.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> If done properly this movie will move the Fire Gods to do the right
>> thing–tell the truth. But even more importantly it will spurn the
>> general public to make sure public funds are expended where
>> they are urgently needed. That includes better training and
>> their facilities where little money is expended and where poor
>> training was a huge factor in the GMHS deaths. Next is better
>> communication devices, radios, etc., better pay checks for men
>> risking these lives on wild land fires, better equipment, and finally
>> more accountability and insurance that these men are protected
>> with qualified supervisors having evidence with plenty experience
>> and knowledge concerning wildfires and how to keep their men safe.
I hear ya, Sonny… and I’m going to remain optimistic about this ‘project’.
I have all my fingers and toes crossed that they do this RIGHT… and tell
the TRUTH.
One of the reasons to remain optimistic is that screenwriter Ken Nolan ( Black Hawk Done ) is known for not “pulling any punches”.
We shall see.
and what did joy say to sonny— “it’s a bullshit”…the books so far…and when Hollywood gets a hold even MORE SO…and to answer sonny if it got that far already (funding) than its a done package thing. Now it is WHO plays Donut and so on and on…and what terrain do they plan to use…THICK PINE areas or true to form?
I saw that full ‘comment’ of yours ( up above ) that you left on one of the ‘announcements’ about Kosinski agreeing to direct the move about Yarnell supposedly called “No Exit”.
NOTE: That’s the comment Sonny left at this online link…
http://www.slashfilm.com/yarnell-hill-wildfire-movie/
That’s also where this ‘ C.P. James Nunez’ person left the following comment…
On February 7, 2016 at 11:42 am, Sonny said…
———————————————————————–
who is C.P. James Nunez?
C.P. James Nunez • 9 days ago
“The lone survivor was their spotter/lookout (who was to direct them by radio out of the paths of the fire from a vantage point where he could see everyone and the fire). He says the team had been instructed to leave the safe zone by superiors. When the lookout realized the danger they were in and radioed to warn them, it was already too late–they were trapped. All they could do was cover themselves with fireproof material and pray. All nineteen died, and the lookout, Brandon McCullough, was depressed and possibly suicidal after not being able to save his friends. Many of the firefighters who died had young wives and young children. There’s a memorial just outside of Prescott to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.”
————————————————————————-
Gotta love THIS happy horseshit…
“When the lookout realized the danger they were in and radioed to warn them, it was already too late–they were trapped.”
And speaking of ‘happy horseshit’….
Just Google “Kosinski yarnell” and you will see the TONS of articles flying around about this recent announcement that they are going ahead with the movie.
But be prepared to have your jaw drop as you read the ‘copy’ on some of these articles. The real ‘victim’ here is still THE TRUTH.
Here’s just one more example…
http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/652001-no-exit-joseph-kosinski-to-direct-true-firefighter-tale
———————————————————
TRON: Legacy and Oblivion director Joseph Kosinski has signed on to direct the true firefighter tale No Exit
TRON: Legacy helmer Joseph Kosinski has, according to a story today at Variety, lined up a new feature in the form of No Exit. Scripted by Black Hawk Down scribe Ken Nolan, No Exit will tell the true story of the Prescott Arizona Fire Department’s Granite Mountain Hotshots. Tasked with fighting wildfires, the 20-man crew risked it all when lightning ignited the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013. Over a period of nearly two weeks, the Granite Mountain Hotshots bravely battled and, eventually, defeated the massive flames. The expense was great, however, as the incident claimed the lives of all but one of the Hotshots’ crew.
———————————————————
Gotta love this part…
“Over a period of nearly two weeks, the Granite Mountain Hotshots bravely battled and, eventually, defeated the massive flames. The expense was great, however, as the incident claimed the lives of all but one of the Hotshots’ crew.”
Just a few moments after I posted that ‘example’ above… a NEW comment appeared below that article.
Apparently… not everyone is asleep at the wheel.
I hope the people making this ‘movie’ realize that if they do NOT make the best effort they can to get the details of this historic National Tragedy RIGHT… or if they have the sand to take it into ‘la la land’… there are a LOT of people who are going to rip them a new asshole…
New comment on the article above…
——————————————————————-
Garnet DuPuy • 7 hours ago
Ther are many incorrect statements in this article. The biggest one is that the hot shots were here for two weeks. The were working on a different fire on the edge of Prescott for the two weeks prior. They had already exceeded the federal limit for the number of days they work without a rest. That was ignored! They arrived that morning and were killed.
——————————————————————–
DuPuy is one of the Yarnell dispatchers-
Well now there is some one that knows something maybe more than that tidbit????????????
Reply to joy a collura post on February 7, 2016 at 10:46 am
>> Joy said…
>>
>> I forgot other link.
>> Back to sleep.
>>
>> My lost brother
Barnes and Noble says Brendan’s book/memoir ( he is listed as the primary author now ) will be generally available this coming May 10, 2016…
Barnes and Noble
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/Lone%20Survivor
My Lost Brothers: The Untold Story by the Yarnell Hill Fire’s Lone Survivor
A Memoir – By Brendan McDonough ( with Stephen Talty )
Available in Hardcover, NOOK Book
Hardcover = $27.00
Available for Pre-Order. This item will be available on May 10, 2016
Random Thoughts For The Day
1. I don’t understand how anyone could possibly be able to utilize or manage 50 people or more on a SAIT. I would think from an investigation standpoint, the smaller the number…the better it would be for the final product. So…
2. Clarification – When I say I believe the GMIHC training MUST have been defective and incomplete regarding the “How Big Is Big Enough” concept, I am not criticizing THEIR training. I am sure they followed the lessons plans that have been approved by the NWCG. I am saying that I strongly suspect that ALL wildland firefighting training MUST be defective and incomplete regarding the .”How Big Is Big Enough” concept.
There are two reasons that I strongly suspect this is the case;
a. My training and the subsequent training that I gave to others was defective and incomplete regarding the “How Big Is Big Enough” concept and all of us followed and taught the standardized and approved training lesson plans. I was never trained on, or even heard of that concept until I was doing random research for this blog and my book that I will get published, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods”, as opposed to the book I will never finish, “The Rise of The Hybrid Firefighter.”
We were trained as hotshots, and subsequently taught others to simply look for the BEST place to deploy a fire shelter with some of the criteria that would make the “best” place to deploy, but we were never taught that if NO site is available to deploy a shelter that is SURVIVABLE, you MUST RUN! In which case you MAY die on your feet moving away from the flames, which is much better (I would like to know WHO disagrees with me on this point) than simply laying down on the ground under a thin layer of tin foil and waiting to be burned alive.
BUT, by running, you may even find a place to deploy your fire shelter that is survivable in the process. For example, it has been established the GMIHC could not retreat back up the steep brush choked drainage they were in, nor could they go forward because the fire hooked around them from below.
BUT Sonny has written several times on this thread that he believes they very well have been able to survive by running towards the large boulder field of very large boulders to their right flank (south – southwest). And since Sonny is here to blog about his experiences on the Yarnell Hill Fire when so many other are dead, I am going to go with him on this one.
b. I think it must be obvious to anyone who looks at the very small area in which the GMIHC did deploy and the intensity of both the temperature of the fire and the wind driven flame lengths, in addition to the time the GMIHC wasted trying to improve their deployment site that was not surviabalbe, they MUST NOT have been thinking or even aware of the “How Big Is Big Enough Concept.” I think this is because all of the training regarding fire shelters since they have been introduced to wildland firefighters has been solely concentrated on convincing WFF to use them…period.
And if I have this all wrong, I wish someone would finally tell that I do with some corroborating evidence to prove to me that I have it wrong. For example, where can I go to review the lesson plans that teach the “How Big Is Big Enough Concept.”
That is why I believe the NWCG (the system) shares in the responsibility for the deaths of the crew and that was a CONTRIBUTING factor in their deaths.. And if only ONE thing comes out this effort, I hope that is the one thing that emerges in future training and then all of this effort will have be worth it in my opinion. Or at least I will feel that my efforts here on this thread will have been worth it.
And by the way, in spite of the nonsensical ramblings of Darrell Willis out at the deployment site (which John Dougherty recorded…thank God) the non survivable site the GMIHC chose to deploy their fire shelters did NOT meet ANY of the recommended criteria for a suitable deployment site. So…
Gary, you are 100% right and I can imagine you wrote about the flimsy fire shelters in your book. The proof is in the facts of how the GMHS were burned unidentifiable so that no one except a few authorities and related loved ones were allowed to see the bodies. It has spurned Mr. Turbyfill, one of the father’s of GMHS, to work on better fire resistant shelters. The evidence shows that piling dehydrated manzanita around a cleared area only increased the heat they had to endure whereas the time they took to do the clearing would have given them ample time to get into the football sized area of boulders with no significant vegetation to threaten survival. Even without being to duck below ground level there was enough clear area to save them. By fortune they would have also found numerous places to hide below ground–something Joy and I already knew existed. In truth there are many of those boulders the size of bulldozers that lie on top of other boulders giving ample shelter from any manzanita fire some 50 yards or more distant.
Indeed one can see that those shelters should absolutely be a last ditch effort, and not even come to mind except perhaps in a grass fire or one where there is other shelter to help their flimsy protective quality. In this case they would have helped had the men opted to dash for the boulders. What mental state would cause them to build brush piles around themselves when they had the boulders in close enough proximity to get into? More to the training methods Gary refers to I would imagine?
And another question–had the men been without shelters would that have influenced their decision to risk their lives by the suicide attempt to try to beat the fire to Helms ranch? Also without the shelters, once trapped, would they have taken to the boulders seeing that it was a clear area that would not burn?
I remember the first training film we were introduced to the Fire shelter and was used for what 20 Plus years.
They put a person in a shelter next to and surrounded by Limbs and brush and he stayed in the shelter while all the Fuel was burning thus clear a spot to lay in on bare dirt.
Pull the Shelter over you and wait for the fir to pass WHAT THE FUCK WAS—How Big Is Big Enough—-?????
Because no one believed that Bull Shit the 60’s and 70’s and into the 80’s Their were hardly any deployments. We made and planed and trained to keep out of those situations.
I carried a Potato Baker from 1964 to 1994 Neither me or my crews ever had a need to deploy.
R5 California made it mandatory to carry a fire shelter in 1964. We never carried them to use
only because we had to carry them.
Hay Gary– I use to carry TWO FUSEE’s in the top of mine.
I considered burn out better than using the Shelter.. We brought the black with us or ID SZ every 100 Yards. Never ever had a pre designated SZ like they do today. Just our own best and safe place as we worked. I was the last one on line building behind my HS Crew I had two Pulaski’s and me with a Brush hook we would cut a trail to good black as we moved roughly every 100 Yards in to the good black and flag it.
As Far as the shelter went the training movies were not very helpful and no one told us for severial years that the shelters should be replaced every 2 to 3 years depending on how much you were going on fires. The folded corners tended to damage the aluminum foil and caused the shelter to be less protective. By the 80’s we were replacing HS crew Shelters every year.
Actually…that is one of the dirty little secrets that my book reveals, although it is the biggest one. The Chief of the Forest Service ordered that all IHC carry fire shelters on any fire that has “flashy fuel”, which is every fire, during his review of the recommendations made by the REPORT OF THE FIRE SAFETY REVIEW TEAM
MARCH 1967, A PLAN TO FURTHER REDUCE, THE CHANCES OF MEN BEING BURNED WHILE FIGHTING FIRES that was made after the Loop Fire Disaster.
So…every Region (as far as I know) except for Region 5, California simply IGNORED what the Chief had ordered. How is that for discipline among our fire gods when they were told to do something they simply did not agree with.
And in the case of the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976, fire shelters would actually have saved them from themselves since they violated almost all of the safety rules at one time.
.
And even if someone makes the argument that not all fires do have flashy fuels, that was certainly not the case with the Battlement Creek Fire which had frost killed Gambel Oak up to 12 feet high that was so explosive it was named Fuel Type X by the Colorado Division of Forestry who were familiar with it’s properties and it was known to run down and kill mature mule deer.
And besides that, we never carried fire shelters or even trained on any fire shelters until 1977, period, as a result of the deaths on the Battlement Creek Fire.
And as I have said before, even when we fought fire in R-5, we threw our fire shelters into the brush as we left fire camp and put our lunches or jackets in those nifty pouches and no one ever cared.
I think for the R-5 overhead it would have been pretty obvious we did not have fire shelters in those pouches, especially after we ate our lunches.
They were told to give us fire shelters, not to make sure we carried them or had ever seen one opened up much less trained on them, so they did.
Fucking system. Don’t tell me that the GMIHC crew bosses (Marsh and Steed) were responsible for the deaths of the crew and no one else. I have been around the block too many times to believe that one. I know how deeply flawed the system really is. So…
Oh….and one more thing. Fuel Type X killed members of an out of state hotshot crew on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976, who were unfamiliar with it’s explosive properties because they were not warned by local fire officials or safety officers about it.
Fast forward to the South Canyon Fire of 1994, that was separated from the Battlement Creek Fire by 18 years and about THIRTY MILES..
Fuel Type X killed members of an out of state hotshot crew on the South Canyon Fire of 1994,, who were unfamiliar with it’s explosive properties.
Now…I do not know for a fact that the Prineville Hotshots were not warned by local fire officials or safety officers about Fuel Type X, but if I were a bettin’ man….
And FYI, the fire shelters back then were HUGE, they were probably 3 times the bulk and weight of today’s fire shelters so a really big lunch or a Levi denim jacket fit into the pouches. Don’t ask me why we wore worthless Levi denim jackets?
My point is this…it was pretty obvious we weren’t carrying large rectangle fire shelters in those huge pouches.
who is C.P. James Nunez?
C.P. James Nunez • 9 days ago
“The lone survivor was their spotter/lookout (who was to direct them by radio out of the paths of the fire from a vantage point where he could see everyone and the fire). He says the team had been instructed to leave the safe zone by superiors. When the lookout realized the danger they were in and radioed to warn them, it was already too late–they were trapped. All they could do was cover themselves with fireproof material and pray. All nineteen died, and the lookout, Brandon McCullough, was depressed and possibly suicidal after not being able to save his friends. Many of the firefighters who died had young wives and young children. There’s a memorial just outside of Prescott to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.”
source:
http://www.slashfilm.com/yarnell-hill-wildfire-movie/
Sounds like a big stretch on the actual facts here. At least we have not herd that McDonough actual tried to tell them they were in trouble but it was to late. Sound dramatic to me.
Hay makes a good movie…….
Who is ‘Brandan McCullough’?
**
** THE ORIGINAL SAIR REPORT ACTUALLY MENTIONS THAT DIVSA
** ERIC MARSH WAS OUT “SCOUTING” AT THE SAME TIME JESSE AND
** THE CREW HAD ALREADY ASSEMBLED IN THE SAFE BLACK.
I was putting together a new, more detailed TIMELINE because of the discussion below about exactly WHEN Eric Marsh said he was “traveling in the black” to various people… and I stumbled across something I’d honestly ‘missed’ before.
It’s a statement in the SAIR that actually MATCHES what Brendan McDonough would eventually admit he knew that day in his softball intervew with Wildfire Today.
That at the same time Jesse and the Crew had already ‘assembled’ at the ‘rest spot’ in the safe black… Eric Marsh was NOT there… and was out “SCOUTING”.
I’m going to reprint a number of paragraphs from the SAIR, starting with when they were describing Brendan’s decision to leave his lookout mound, and on through his rescue by Frisby… because that sets he CONTEXT for what I am trying to point out…
Starting on PDF page 29 of the SAIR…
——————————————————————————
The fire has started building and the wind is already beginning to shift. GM Lookout is not worried, but he recognizes it is time for him to move. He calls GM Capt and says the fire has hit his trigger point and he is moving towards the open area at the old grader. GM Capt calmly replies, “Okay, cool.”
GM Lookout hikes toward the grader. As he hikes, he identifies options including an alternative lookout spot further up the road, a possible shelter deployment site near the grader, and a little clearing just down from his original lookout spot where he could deploy his fire shelter if the fire caught him. At this same time, BR Supt is driving back in his UTV to meet DIVS A for a face-to-face meeting. As GM Lookout reaches the grader, he reaches for his radio to call BR Supt and ask for a ride, when he sees BR Supt driving around the corner. About then, GM Capt calls GM Lookout and says, “I’ve got eyes on you and the fire, and it’s making a good push.”
GM Lookout loads his gear into the UTV and hands his radio to BR Supt so BR Supt can contact the Granite Mountain IHC on the Granite Mountain intra-crew frequency. BR Supt tells them GM Lookout is with him and is safe, and they will probably need to move the Granite Mountain trucks.
The Granite Mountain IHC says they have “good eyes,” they are “in the black,” and they will assess from there. As GM Lookout departs, he believes the crew is in the black and watching the fire, and DIVSA is scouting.
BR Supt drops GM Lookout off at the Granite Mountain IHC Supt truck at about 1555 and then heads around the corner to get some of his crew to help move the Granite Mountain crew carriers.
On the Granite Mountain intra-crew frequency, GM Lookout hears DIVS A and GM Capt talking about their options, whether to stay in the black or to come up with a plan to move.
———————————————————————————-
So that is what the SAIR had to say about the entire time from when McDonough and Steed both ‘agreed’ it was time for Brendan to leave his lookout post… all the way through Frisby dropping Brendan off at the GM Supt and Chase trucks… and then going in the Polaris Ranger to ‘get’ the other BR Crew that would help drive the GM vehicles out of where they were.
But notice this ONE sentence sort of ‘buried’ in there…
“As GM Lookout departs ( heading EAST, with Frisby ), he believes the crew is in the black and watching the fire, and DIVSA is scouting.”
Keyphrase: “and DIVSA is SCOUTING”.
So right there we seem to see the SAIT itself basically ADMITTING, even as early as September 28, 2013 when this report first came out, that Brendan seems to have actually already TOLD THEM the same thing that would eventually appear only in Brendan’s ‘softball interview’ with Mr. Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today.
In just those FOUR WORDS… ( “and DIVSA is SCOUTING” )… the SAIR is actually SAYING that at that moment when Frisby was driving Brendan back EAST and to safety… Brendan believed the crew ( just Jesse and the men ) were already ‘in the black’… but that that is NOT where Eric Marsh was at that SAME TIME.
At that SAME TIME Brendan was riding EAST with Frisby… the SAIR itself has always been saying that Brendan ‘believed’ Eric Marsh was ALREADY “SCOUTING” something.
“SCOUTING” WHAT?
The SAIR doesn’t say ( even though it appears they already knew ).
Well… here is what Brendan would then eventually tell Mr. Bill Gabbert…
Wildfire Today
The Yarnell Hill Fire lone survivor: Interview with Brendan McDonough
Published: August 31, 2015
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/31/the-yarnell-hill-fire-lone-survivor-interview-with-brendan-mcdonough/
———————————————————————————–
Brendan added that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two ( Marsh and Steed ) about why the crew left the black. He did hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.
———————————————————————————–
Key phrase: “Going on ahead to make sure the route was good”.
In other words… “SCOUTING THE ROUTE TO THE BOULDER SPRINGS RANCH”.
And once again… here is that same little ‘blurb’ from the original SAIR report, with the “and DIVSA is SCOUTING” tag on the end…
“As GM Lookout departs ( heading EAST, with Frisby ), he believes the crew is in the black and watching the fire, and DIVSA is SCOUTING”.
So the “slowy I turned” moment here is WHERE the SAIR authors were getting enough ‘information’ to actually just put those FOUR WORDS right there into the same timeframe as Brendan telling them he believed ‘the CREW’ ( Jesse and the men ONLY ) were “in the black”… but Marsh was already off SCOUTING ( something )?
Is this absolute proof that Mike Dudley and Jim Karels ( and the rest of the SAIT team ) knew all along that right around the time Brendan was evacuating, and Jesse and the Crew were all ‘gathering’ at that ‘rest spot’… that DIVSA Eric Marsh had ALREADY ‘taken off’ from the ‘safe black’ to the SOUTH… and was out ‘SCOUTNG AHEAD’ towards the Boulder Springs Ranch?
That they actually DID receive that ‘information’ from Brendan even when THEY first talked to him…. but chose to totally ignore mentioning it ( except for those FOUR obscure WORDS ) or ‘explaining’ what it actually MEANT in their official REPORT?
It certainly seems that way.
That would be accurate I have to believe WTKTT. We never once saw Marsh with the crew–always ahead. Even that morning he was a good mile and a half hour or so ahead of the crew laying out those pink ribbons. You can bet that ball of pink ribbons that were in the road were put there by Marsh as a jumping off point. The ball was large enough to have been a key turning point that he wanted to men to notice since it was in the middle of the two track and likely tied around a rock or stick. It makes sense that Marsh had already laid out a pink ribbon line right down the mountain and even to the Helms Ranch. I think RTS said something to the effect that Marsh would have been at the ranch and went back to meet the men since they were having slow progress getting through to the ranch and even at that low point Marsh had to see that the fire was headed to cut them off. Radio communications would have also alerted Marsh of the impending fire.
Well…at a minimum we have taught them that the old rules of just writing a bunch of bullshit into a so-called investigative report and calling it good do not apply anymore in this new age of social media and involved citizens.
No wonder they are taking their time with the Twisp Fire SAIR. Since they had more than 50 people working on the original SAIT that produced the deeply flawed Yarnell HIll Fire SAIR…I wonder how many people it is going to take on the next one to be able to pass the red face test.
Great Job WTKTT!
Thanks for the research and your post. Good job.
Reply to Gary Olson post on February 5, 2016 at 2:09 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Well…at a minimum we have taught them that the old rules of just
>> writing a bunch of bullshit into a so-called investigative report and
>> calling it good do not apply anymore in this new age of social media
>> and involved citizens.
Let’s hope so.
We are still NOT talking ‘Exxon Mobile’ here.
Every bit of chicanery and deception and ‘lying by ommission’ and the withholding of evidence that is ( and has always been ) going on here is taking place using PUBLIC MONEY… and being ‘carried out’ by CIVIL SERVANTS on the taxpayer payroll.
It is ( and has always been ) “Unacceptable”.
But as for what Brendan may or may not have admitted to the SAIT, and their attempts to ‘ignore’ his statements ( or at least obscure them )…
…it gets worse.
Example: The following is taken directly from what the SAIT said were their COMPLETE and all-inclusive “Interview Notes” for when THEY talked to Brendan McDonough…
—————————————————————————————
* On his way down to old grader looks at a spot that he might use as a deployment site to his right decides it’s to small continues to area of old grader
* Advises Steed he is there Steed says he can see him decides at this time if he needs to deploy this is the spot. Looks at a possible new lookout spot up hill at about this time Blue Ridge Supt shows up and says he will give him a ride out. Not in any rush to load up asks the Blue Ridge Supt if wants to talk to Crew on his radio.
* Blue Ridge Supt advised to Steed fire conditions and asks if they have good black. Steed says yes they have good black and can see the fire. Blue Ridge says they will move there trucks and have Brendan with them.
* They got back to trucks seem a little more hurried at this point. Blue Ridge supt is going to get some drivers. I started the truck turned on the AC and made sure the truck radios were on the right Channel and volume up
* Blue Ridge back with drivers drive out
——————————————————————————————
That’s it.
That “Blue Ridge back with drivers drive out” entry is the absolute LAST entry in the SAIT’s entire “Brendan McDonough Interview Notes”.
There is NOTHING in their own (supposedly complete) “Interview Notes” covering Brendan’s ‘departing his lookout position and being picked up by Frisby’ timeframe that, in any way, then supports THIS eventual ‘statement’ in their own final report…
From the TOP of PDF page 30 of the SAIR…
—————————————————————————————–
“As GM Lookout departs ( heading EAST, with Frisby ), he believes the crew is in the black and watching the fire, and DIVS A is scouting.”
—————————————————————————————–
That indicates they had OTHER NOTES… from (perhaps) some OTHER (secret?) interview they conducted with Brendan… which have never seen the light of day… even after valid FOIA requests AND even after they had the responsibility to provide EVERYTHING they had to ADOSH via inter-agency ‘full disclosure’.
Once again… here is what Brendan finally admitted to ALWAYS knowing…
Wildfire Today
The Yarnell Hill Fire lone survivor: Interview with Brendan McDonough
Published: August 31, 2015
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/31/the-yarnell-hill-fire-lone-survivor-interview-with-brendan-mcdonough/
———————————————————————————–
Brendan added that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two ( Marsh and Steed ) about why the crew left the black. He did hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their waydown there.
———————————————————————————–
That DOES match what the SAIR would end up publishing… but they chose to ‘obfuscate’ it and make sure there wasn’t that kind of ‘detail’ published.
But now compare that to what Brendan told ( or more like REFUSED to tell ) ADOSH…
From Brendan’s ADOSH interview on August 20, 2013…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
Q2 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Brendan McDonough
——————————————————————————————–
2012 Q2: So when you – you went and they picked you up and you moved vehicles and
2013 all that stuff that’s going on, do you know what the – what the crew was
2014 doing? Were they moving towards the ranch?
2015
2016 A: That wasn’t relayed to me. I just told – ‘cause I knew – I knew the storm was
2017 coming in. I knew they weren’t — I mean, you don’t want to sit there and be a
2018 Chatty Cathy on the radio. ‘Cause I told them, “Hey if you guys need
2019 anything? I’ll be with Blue Ridge.” 2019 They knew that. “Um, just let me know.
2020 And I’ll get ahold of you and I’ll see you guys soon.”
2021
2022 Q1: Right.
2023
2024 ((Crosstalk))
2025
2026 A: …last transmission that (unintelligible).
——————————————————————————————–
So when Brendan was asked the exact RIGHT question…
“Did you know what the CREW was doing?”
…in reference to the EXACT same TIMEFRAME…
“When they picked you up and you moved vehicles”
…that DIRECT question *should* have produced a response from Brendan similar to what eventually would be attributed to HIM in the SAIR… which was…
“As GM Lookout departs ( heading EAST, with Frisby ), he believes the crew is in the black and watching the fire, and DIVS A is scouting.”
But Brendan’s ‘official’ answer to ADOSH in response to this DIRECT question was just…
“That wasn’t relayed to me.”
Brendan TOTALLY DODGES answering the SAME question ( from Dave Larsen ), that he apparently DID answer for the SAIT team, about what he either ‘knew’ or ‘believed’ ( in that SAME timeframe ) about what the ‘Crew’ was doing… and what Eric Marsh might have been doing ( already SCOUTING ahead to the BSR ).
NOTE: In that final statement by Brendan of “…last transmission that ( unitelligible )”, the “(unintelligible)” part is no such thing. If you listen to the actual AUDIO recording of that ADOSH interview with Brendan… it’s pretty clear what he REALLY said ( or ALMOST said… but then caught himself ) there.
ALSO NOTE: Whoever was transcribing that audio also left out the words SAFETY ZONE at the end of Dave Larsen’s actual QUESTION to Brendan.
So here is what is ACTUALLY in that audio recording of Brendan’s interview, including the supposedly (unitelligible) part when Brendan was answering Dave Larsen’s question…
—————————————————————————————–
2012 Q2: So when you – you went and they picked ya up and you moved vehicles and
2013 all that stuff is goin’ on, do you know what the – what the crew was
2014 doin’? Were they moving towards the ranch SAFETY ZONE?
2015
2016 A: That wasn’t relayed to me. I just told – ‘cause I knew – I knew the storm was
2017 coming in. I knew they weren’t — I mean, you don’t wanna sit there and be a
2018 Chatty Cathy on the radio… so I told ’em, “Hey… if you guys need
2019 anything I’ll be with Blue Ridge.” They knew that. “Um, just lemmee know…
2020 and I’ll get ahold a ya and I’ll see you guys soon.”
2021
2022 Q1: Right.
2023
2024 Q1: Was that your…
2024 A: That’s the last…
2024 Q1: That was your last?…
2024 A: I heard… I mean…
2025
2026 A: …that last transmission with them goin’ off ( ? with Steed ).
2027
2028 Q2: Really?
2029 Q1: Okay
——————————————————————————————
What Brendan actually started to say was that this ‘exchange’ he had with Steed when leaving his lookout mound was the last time he HEARD anything from them… but he quickly STOPPED himself, backtracked, thought better of using that term ‘HEARD’… and changed his response to “last TRANSMISSION”.
It’s a subtle thing… but appears to reflect Brendan suddenly ‘remembering’ what his lawyer ( who was sitting right beside him for this interview ) had probably ‘coached’ him about prior to the interview… and that would have been something along the lines of…
“Don’t say anything about things you might have just HEARD, or things that were not being ‘relayed’ directly TO you. ONLY answer questions about radio ‘transmissions’ in which YOU were a DIRECT participant”.
So not only does it look like Mike Dudley and Jim Karels ( and the rest of the PUBLIC CIVIL SERVANTS working on that SAIR document ) were choosing to ‘hide’ what Brendan apparently TOLD them when THEY interviewed him… that ‘statement’ in the SAIR is really just even MORE ‘evidence’ that Brendan was, in fact, always withholding important information from Arizona State investigators and ‘obstructing’ their lawful investigation into the workplace deaths of 19 civil servants.
What a mess.
http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/joseph-kosinski-sets-sights-on-yarnell-hill-wildfire-movie-no-exit/
A local sent me this link. I’m still sleeping this bad spell of illness off so back to sleep.
From the article…
——————————————————————
Best known for his work across Tron: Legacy and Tom Cruise-fronted sci-fi flick Oblivion, Variety reports that Kosinski will partner with producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura on the feature film, which will mark the director’s first foray behind the lens to tackle a genre other than science fiction – and what a departure it is.
Working from a script penned by Ken Nolan (Black Hawk Down), No Exit is poised to orbit around the Granite Mountain Hotshots, a tight-knit group of firefighters that were left scrambling to control a raging wildfire in 2013 that almost wiped out their entire crew.
Black Label Media is on board to finance No Exit, with plans in place to leverage producing duties with Mike Menchel, Dawn Ostroff and Jeremy Steckler of Conde Nast Entertainment. Variety states that production could begin as early as the summer now that Joseph Kosinski’s place at the helm has been confirmed.
——————————————————————
I saw no mention of finding the exact spot where the lightening struck that started this fire. Considering that the annals of fire fighting disasters will put this at the top of the list as one of the Worlds greatest avoidable fire fighting disaster, we would want photos of that spot. Because of the historical significance of the Yarnell Wild Fire and because it is purported that men were at the site within an hour after it started, we need to find that exact spot the lightening struck.
This information might be available. If so no mention has been made of it anywhere I know of. I personally have attempted to locate the spot of origin on just about every occasion I have been there, looking on both the east and west side of the Weaver Range approximately where I had believed it should have been.
There is one place the SAIR report and other investigators have fallen down. In California they could locate just about every fire starting origin and have photos in situ of even cigarette packs with matches attached that were used as time starters, yet we have no photos of that purported lightening strike atop the Weaver Range that started the Yarnell Hill Wild Fire.
What a neglect of investigation considering this is the worlds worst death count–19 young lives destroyed from this fire not to mention the destruction of half the town of Yarnell as well as many homes in Peeples Valley along with a historical ranch near there, with an expenditure of millions of taxpayer dollars in a feeble attempt to put the thing out.
It would seem obvious to any investigator with any brain at all that you would want photos of that spot, not just people’s assertion that they saw a lightening strike and smoke soon thereafter. If that indeed were the source we want to see those photos as well considering the magnitude of this fire and its historical significance.
There is still some chance that the place can be found even after the two year lapse. I have seen lightening strikes that are many years aged if on a tree and even in rock or dirt you can find fulgerites (fused sand or dirt from the heat of lightening). Indeed, if there are not secreted or redacted photos of the strike then I should think that any investigative team would have assigned 50 men to comb the area to get those photos. The public has the right to demand that type information considering their expenditure of millions on the botched attempt to put this fire out and the destruction it wrought.
If anyone has such photos, knows of the same or knows of an exact mark of where this fire started then please post it. If there is a GPS point stated we can get within a few feet of its place with GPS and get photos of that for the citizens whom have paid so dearly for this fire.
I should add here we did have GPS co ordinates but what I had was located two miles north of a general area where it was seen to begin. If you have co ordinates to relay to me that are sensible, I will gladly take a hike up there to get photos to post for the general public to view.
Sonny… see a longer ‘Reply’ up above.
At the very top of the official “I-Dispatch Records” document… they have always been showing some GPS coordinates for the accepted ‘origin’ of the fire ( on Friday )… and those GPS coordinates match exactly what Air Attack Rory Collins reported when he flew over this ‘lightning strike’ fire on Friday afternoon, just 1 hour and 24 minutes after it started.
Those GPS coordinates are…
34.2283, -112.7915
And that ‘point’ really does seem very, very close to where the lightning most probably struck on Friday afternoon. Probably within 20 or 30 feet or less, if not actually ‘spot on’.
Here is that longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-325207
I forgot other link.
Back to sleep.
My lost brother
I was typing when it post
My lost brothers us on Amazon by Brendan McDonough
Back to sleep
Too many typos and I’m too I’ll to focus
Reply to joy a collura post on February 7, 2016 at 10:46 am
>> Joy said…
>>
>> I forgot other link.
>> Back to sleep.
>>
>> My lost brother
Barnes and Noble says Brendan’s book/memoir ( he is listed as the primary author now ) will be generally available this coming May 10, 2016…
Barnes and Noble
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/Lone%20Survivor
My Lost Brothers: The Untold Story by the Yarnell Hill Fire’s Lone Survivor
A Memoir – By Brendan McDonough ( with Stephen Talty )
Available in Hardcover, NOOK Book
Hardcover = $27.00
Available for Pre-Order. This item will be available on May 10, 2016
Reply to calvin post on February 4, 2016 at 3:51 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> video m2u00271 seems to capture Frisby saying Eric decided the
>> trail that follows the ridge in the green?
Correct.
What he ( Brian Frisby ) actually appears to say there is…
———————————————————
+0:31 ( 1729:31 / 5:29:31 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… in the green… ( ? that that’s the route )… and that lookout was down below… and I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… ( ? rest of ’em )… and I grabbed him… and then we got the rigs out.
———————————————————-
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> next sentence is frisby saying he found the lookout.
Yep.
Actually what he (clearly) says there is “I just happened to stumble upon the lookout”.
That’s a CONFIRMATION ( from Frisby’s own mouth ) that it really WAS a complete ‘accident’ that he came across Brendan when he did.
In BOTH of Brendan’s ADOSH interviews, even as late as October of 2013, Brendan was still under the mistaken impression that it was all part of ‘the plan’ and that someone had already called Frisby to come and get him.
No one had done any such thing.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> So. I wonder if the comment about the trail along the ridge ( from Eric )
>> came before Frisby came across Mcdonough?
Good question… since this statement from Frisby’s own mouth coming at 5:29:31 PM that same day hasn’t never quite matched his ‘other testimony’ in either the SAIT Investigation Notes or in his handwritten Unit Log(s)… unless there’s something there in one of the BLACKED OUT sections related to this.
I happen to think it is ALSO possible this statement coming from Frisby in the M2U00271 video might somehow relate back to the 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM face-to-face he had with Marsh / Steed up where they were working.
We still have no FULL account what Frisby and Brown talked about with Marsh and Steed for that full half-hour, other than some pissing and moaning about the briefings ( or lack thereof ), some radio issues, whether they had ‘cubies and gatorade’ they could give GM, and if they’d take Brendan down to his lookout mound.
We still have NO IDEA what these four men might have even discussed concerning the FIRE itself… or whether ( at that time ) Marsh have even pointed SOUTH and indicated to Frisby that Marsh considered that ‘southern two-track’ some kind of ‘escape route’… which Frisby might have then later been recalling in this conversation with Aaron Hulburd captured in the M2U00271 video.
** OR **
Since there had already been that ‘huddle’ in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant prior to the launching of this ‘ground rescue mission’… this ‘information’ that we can hear for ourselves being given to Aaron Hulburd by Brian Frisby could have even come out of THAT ‘huddle’.
It could represent ‘new’ information ( new to Frisby? ) that even HE only heard about during that ‘huddle’… and it might have been coming from Brendan McDonough and/or one of his own Blue Ridge crew that had also been listening to the GM Intra-Crew Radio that afternoon.
Only Brian Frisby himself can really clear this one up.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> So what I hear in that video is Frisby assuring the others they were
>> not in the black. As the others were talking about GM and the
>> black, Frisby interjects with, NO, NO.
Yes. It’s very confusing there… and ( again ) ONLY a good interview with Brian Frisby and/or Aaron Hulburd could probably ‘clear that up’.
The way I hear it… Frisby’s “NO, NO…” was just correcting something Aaron Hulburd had just said to him… which was…
+0:25 ( 1729:25 / 5:29:25 PM )
( Aaron Hulburd ): So THAT’S what they were talking about?
The LOOKOUT was in the black?
Frisby had ALREADY said that “they” ( GM ) were ( as far as he knew ) “in the black” a few seconds earlier…
+0:21 ( 1729:21 / 5:29:21 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): So they were sittin’ in… ( slight pause )… they were in black.
Here is what I ( me, personally, your mileage may vary ) believe is an accurate transcription of that entire Aaron Hulburd M2U00271 video…
NOTE: The TIMES below appear to be accurate as well… and it’s because we have the Blue Ridge GPS data to refer to. This conversation took place right after the BR Polaris Ranger came to a STOP… and then stayed STATIONARY for 6 minutes at that location right near the entrance to the Youth Camp.
What actually happens is that in the video BEFORE this one, video M2U00270, we see Frisby and Brown actually bringing the Polaris Ranger to a STOP at +21 seconds into THAT video ( which was only a 44 second long video ).
Then they ( Frisby and Brown ) seemed to think they had ‘gone too far’ and were too close to the burning structure there… and they started ‘backing up’ their Polaris Ranger and coming back towards Jason Clawson in his ATV, who was behind them.
At +24 seconds into video M2U00270 they finished ‘backing up’… and that’s where the Polaris Ranger remained ‘stationary’ for the next 6 minutes, and where it is seen ‘parked’ in the NEXT video… M2U00271.
So doing a little math from the moment the UTV is seen ‘stopping’ in video M2U00270… and comparing things to the GPS data and timestamps… it’s pretty easy to get a START time for video M2U00271 of right about 5:29 PM, give or take some seconds ( since the GPS Unit itself was only updating every 60 seconds ).
—————————————————————————————–
** VIDEO M2U00271 STARTS AT 1729:00 ( 5:29:00 PM )
Total length: 59 seconds.
+0:00 ( 1729:00 / 5:29:00 PM )
( Unknown – Jason Clawson? ): Ask them if the black plume is where they are.
+0:02 ( 1729:02 / 5:29:02 PM )
( OPS2 Paul Musser ): ( At a ) point just… uh… ( in ) here in Yarnell.
+0:03 ( 1729:03 / 5:29:03 PM )
( Unknown ): Is it safe to go in there?
+0:06 ( 1729:06 / 5:29:06 PM )
( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): Nah…. it’s best to stay safe right now.
+0:10 ( 1729:10 / 5:29:10 PM )
( Background radio voices – Unknown ): ( ? Hey )… make sure ( ? that they )… ??
+0:12 ( 1729:12 / 5:29:12 PM )
( Background radio voice – Unknown ): I copy ( that ).
+0:13 ( 1729:13 / 5:29:13 PM )
( Aaron Hulburd ): How many were in there?
+0:15 ( 1729:15 / 5:29:15 PM )
( Brian Frisby? ): ( ? I have ) to believe ( ? what he said ).
+0:17 ( 1729:17 / 5:29:17 PM )
( Unknown – over radio ): Operations… ??
+0:18 ( 1729:18 / 5:29:18 PM )
( Overlapping foreground conversation ):
( Trueheart Brown ? ): ??… no lines are down.
( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ? ): ?? is askin’ what’s down there.
+0:21 ( 1729:21 / 5:29:21 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): So they were sittin’ in… ( slight pause )… they were in black.
+0:24 ( 1729:24 / 5:29:24 PM )
( Unknown – Jason Clawson? ): I totally heard “the black”.
+0:25 ( 1729:25 / 5:29:25 PM )
( Aaron Hulburd ): So THAT’S what they were talking about? The
LOOKOUT was in the black?
+0:28 ( 1729:28 / 5:29:28 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): No. No. (He’s) in black…
+0:30 ( 1729:30 / 5:29:30 PM )
( Unknown – KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): ( Overlapping with Frisby ) Yea… I heard THAT…
+0:31 ( 1729:31 / 5:29:31 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… in the green… ( ? that that’s the route )… and that lookout was down below… and I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… ( ? rest of ’em )… and I grabbed him… and then we got the rigs out.
+0:48 ( 1729:48 / 5:29:48 PM )
( Unknown – Foreground ): What the hell are we gonna do? It’s all we can do.
+0:51 ( 1729:51 / 5:29:51 PM )
( Unknown – Foreground ): I just don’t see why we ( ? should try ).
+0:59 ( 1729:59 / 5:29:59 PM )
VIDEO ENDS
** VIDEO M2U00271 ENDS AT 1729:59 ( 5:29:59 PM )
—————————————————————————————————-
** THE GPS DATA
Here’s the actual Blue Ridge GPS data that ‘backs up’ the timestamps being used above. The section where the GPS data goes ‘stationary’ as they reached that point near the entrance to the Youth Camp is exactly when we see the Polaris Ranger ‘stopping’ in video M2U00270 and then we see the men ‘dismount’ and begin their ‘conversations’ in the M2U00271 video…
————————————————————————————-
1724 – 34.222581, -112.746828 – 3413.380 – 38.79 – North (fast) on Highway 89, now at intersection of 89 and Shrine Road
1725 – 34.223610, -112.748051 – 0542.768 – 06.17 – West on Shrine Road. Now at intersection of Shrine Road and Willow Lane
1726 – 34.228307, -112.753844 – 2538.890 – 28.85 – West on Shrine Road all the way to Youth Camp entrance
1727 – 34.227225, -112.752782 – 0544.510 – 06.19 – Back east on Shrine Road to St. Joseph Shrine parking lot
1728 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0650.764 – 07.39 – Back west to near Youth Camp entrance again
** At 1728:30 is when we see the Polaris Ranger coming to a STOP in the M2U00271 video.
** They all remain here for the rest of the M2U00270 video and for the M2U00271 video…
1729 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1730 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1731 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1732 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1733 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1734 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
Somewhere in the 60 seconds between 1734 and 1735 is when the “fuck it… let’s go for it” moment takes places and Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown and Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are now all ‘breaking through’ to the Cutover Trail to head west on the ‘ground rescue mission’…
1735 – 34.228387, -112.754488 – 0121.864 – 01.38 – Slight movement west on Shrine Road
1736 – 34.229150, -112.756580 – 0683.623 – 07.77 – West on Shrine Road. Now at spot where Cutover Trail meets Shrine Road
1737 – 34.227314, -112.758844 – 1353.550 – 15.38 – Heading west on Cutover Trail
1738 – 34.226338, -112.763339 – 1509.630 – 17.15 – Heading west on Cutover Trail
1739 – 34.227198, -112.767631 – 1616.130 – 18.37 – Now heading northwest through Sesame area
————————————————————————————-
Typo above.
Just to be clear…we SEE the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV come to a STOP at +24 seconds into the M2U00270 video… but that video is only 44 seconds long. When video M2U00271 starts… it’s only been a few seconds between the end of M2U00270 and the start of M2U00271.
So those lines up above should have read like this…
** At 1728:30 is when we see the Polaris Ranger coming to a STOP in the M2U00270 video.
** They all remain here for the rest of the M2U00270 video and for the M2U00271 video.
1729 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1730 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1731 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1732 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1733 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
1734 – 34.228502, -112.754166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
**
** TRANSCRIPT AND TIMESTAMPS FOR HULBURD VIDEO M2U00270
And just for reference… here is what I ( me, personally, your mileage may vary ) believe is an accurate transcript ( with accurate timestamps ) of the 44 second video taken by Aaron Hulburd just BEFORE his M2U00271 video.
This is the one where we actually SEE the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV come to a STOP… which then matches that sequence of GPS data coming from BR Captain Trueheart Brown’s GPS unit.
As this video starts… the 3 ‘quads’ that were in the ‘ground rescue mission’ are ‘arriving’ near the entrance to the Youth Camp, where that structure was burning and its propane tank was ‘venting’.
– Frisby and Brown are in the lead, in the BR Polaris Ranger UTV.
– Jason Clawson is behind them in his 1-man ATV.
– KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell is driving his RED UTV and bringing up the rear with Aaron Hulburd riding ( and filming ) from Yowell’s passenger seat.
There is a ‘house’ in flames just to the south of where they all come to a stop
there near the entrance to the Youth Camp. It’s the same house where the
propane tank has been seen ‘venting’ in other videos in this timeframe.
** VIDEO M2U00270 STARTS AT 1728:06
+0:00 ( 1728:06 / 5:28:06 PM )
VIDEO STARTS
+0:04 ( 1728:10 / 5:28:10 PM )
( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): What the fuck?
+0:09 ( 1728:15 / 5:28:15 PM )
( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): Is that the house?
+0:12 ( 1728:18 / 5:28:18 PM )
( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): Yea… there it is. That’s
+0:13 ( 1728:19 / 5:28:19 PM )
( Aaron Hulburd ): That’s it.
+0:14 ( 1728:20 / 5:28:20 PM )
( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): …the house.
+0:16 ( 1728:22 / 5:28:22 PM )
( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): ( They ) can’t get in.
+0:24 ( 1728:30 / 5:28:30 PM )
The Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV with Frisby and Brown in it ‘backs up’ back towards Jason Clawson for a few feet… and then becomes ‘Stationary’ at 34.228387, -112.754488 there near the entrance to the Youth Camp. This is where they ( Frisby, Brown, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell ) will REMAIN ‘Stationary’ for the next 6 minutes while they consider ‘breaking through’ to continue the ‘ground rescue mission’ out towards the west.
+0:34 ( 1728:40 / 5:28:40 PM )
( Unknown ): ( Can we ) get up here?
+0:36 ( 1728:42 / 5:28:42 PM )
The propane tank over by the house that is burning ‘vents’ again… for 3 full seconds.
+0:39 ( 1728:45 / 5:28:45 PM )
( Unknown ): ??… which way?
+0:40 ( 1728:46 / 5:28:46 PM )
( Trueheart Brown ): It’s on the OTHER side of the ( burning building ).
+0:44 ( 1728:50 / 5:28:50 PM )
VIDEO ENDS
** VIDEO M2U00270 ENDS AT 1728:50
YARNELL LOCALS
fraud alert
please check your emails immediately on a man here locally passing himself off as legit knocking on doors.
I got a voicemail that saw one of the bulletin boards of my yhf flyer and wants to meet. His name is Ralph. He stated he knows information but Ralph assumed because he called I have his number and I am sorry Ralph but I have no way to reach u except let u know here and on that bulletin board to call me back with contact information. I am going to hospital today so I can confirm a diagnosis for not being able to breathe…my lungs…my cough is way deep yet raw from mouth to lungs.
Step pneumonia cold flu was the diagnosis… I never do pharmaceuticals but can’t say never because I started at 7pm to knock it out. Yuk. Even found a doc I can talk human with and we respect another…it will make for a nice long journey vs building trust
Strep pneumonia… Oops..typo
RTS said
Calvin,
I too do NOT believe that the GMHS was heading to the BSR to do structure protection at the actual BSR because it didn’t need it.
I believe there was some kind of ‘plan’ between STSP Cordes and Division Alpha Marsh to head to the BSR and THEN for structure protection elsewhere. Cordes asked TFLD(T) Esquibel to head to the BSR to tie in with/meet the GMHS coming down.
Coming down for what? Structure protection somewhere.
If that’s not good enough for you, then ….
Thanks RTS. Thanks for following up with this.
My next question is concerning Cory Ball.
What was he doing in Glen Isla on the ATV? Was he preparing for structure protection?. Have you seen his pictures?
I don’t know what color atv Cory Ball was upom– But if anyone has questions to Grant McKee he has just text Joy. He says He ” appreciates all our care and hard we have done and been through for all of us and how is Sonny is he OK. Thanks Grant
He is at the Ranch House Café , Yarnell, AZ right now if you would want to call there to talk with him
I was about to comment on the ATV thing when Joy said Grant had text us. Joy is down with the flu so we won’t be able to talk with him in person. Also we will leave the phone line open in case any of you have questions to him at the Ranch House Café. He got a raw deal there we though and should have immediate access to the area at any time considering his son was one of the GMHS sacrificed.
Now about the ATV situation to Calvin. There are photos of a yellow and white ATV at the local fire department on Sat. 29 June 2013. That is likely the same ATV that Cindy, now passed, had a photo of a yellow ATV sitting near the fire on Weaver Mt. on Friday afternoon not long after the lightening strike. That night she also witnessed lights moving about in the same area.
What a coincidence, because we for the longest were looking for a yellow and white ATV to see if one really even existed. One of the people here on the site were dissecting photos and informed us of that photo of the fire department yellow and white ATV. We still do not know who it belonged too and whether it was connected to the yellow and white helicopter that was leased out of Georgia to a federal agency.
Sonny said:”But if anyone has questions to Grant McKee he has just text Joy. He says He ” appreciates all our care and hard we have done and been through for all of us and how is Sonny is he OK. Thanks Grant. I was about to comment on the ATV thing when Joy said Grant had text us. Joy is down with the flu so we won’t be able to talk with him in person. ”
MY REPLY: yes no way I am seeing anyone IN PERSON currently with this crap…I would not want a soul to have it…yes Sonny I did receive a text stating he was in town by him and yes he did ask how you are but I do not think in any text did it say if anyone had questions for him…you are funny. I am bad ill. Projectile vomiting and hard to breathe and down right caught what Jason Richards had at PHNX VA ER…we went to ER and the man next to Sonny said he wore a mask because what he had was down right UGLY …like the WORST strep flu moment…I figured NOT ME …I’m not gonna catch it with my vitamin intake and regimen of health intake…WRONG! I got zapped immediately.
Grant, thank you for the text of appreciation. I did not reply because I did not want to engage in any topics…but really hope we can get this forty car parking lot figured out—will it be a FEE to park like Lynx Creek area probably…it’s all a bullshit…and let me guess fees to park will go to the park success—RIGHT? I watched LIVE Sonny’s Phyllis Diller chicken get nabbed by a beautiful thick coated red tipped ears coyote and what a shame but that chicken was not chicken at all for its heroic act saved Mae West as we were all playing out front and the coyote came right to the patio here and did all this and the coyote was slying its way to Mae when the chicken made noise to alert us and NAB and gone the coyote went—it was a great looking chicken too but such a hero today for saving the IM mascot’s life. Nothing too new. All on HOLD until I beat this…
Reply to Sonny post on February 3, 2016 at 11:49 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Now about the ATV situation to Calvin. There are photos of
>> a yellow and white ATV at the local fire department on
>> Sat. 29 June 2013.
Marti posted a link to those ‘photos’ back in Chapter 18.
George Delange took them and still has them on his public webpage.
On December 22, 2015 at 8:32 am, Marti Reed said…
Sonny said DECEMBER 21, 2015 AT 4:27 PM:
“The lady and Joy named her, has lately deceased and had the photos of the two quads that were at the fire and lightening strike on Friday as the fire started. No investigator official has looked into that. Because the yellow and white copter that we saw fan the fire accidentally or on purpose? on Sunday the 30th around 10:300-11:30 am was also the color of the quads. I thought they might be also a BLM ownership. Dr. Putnam told me not necessarily so. Totally unimaginable that investigators did not look into that evidence.”
In George DeLange’s two June 29, 2013 photos of the Yarnell Fire Department, one taken in the afternoon and the other taken at night, there is a yellow UTV parked there in the parking lot.
http://www.delange.org/Yarnell_Forest_Fire/Yarnell_Forest_Fire.htm
I currently think that is the UTV that Cory Ball borrowed to go into Glen Ilah.
Maybe it was also one of the ones that “the lady” had in her photo?
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> That is likely the same ATV that Cindy, now passed, had a
>> photo of a yellow ATV sitting near the fire on Weaver Mt.
>> on Friday afternoon not long after the lightening strike. That
>> night she also witnessed lights moving about in the same area.
>>
>> What a coincidence, because we for the longest were looking
>> for a yellow and white ATV to see if one really even existed.
>> One of the people here on the site were dissecting photos
>> and informed us of that photo of the fire department yellow
>> and white ATV. We still do not know who it belonged too and
>> whether it was connected to the yellow and white helicopter
>> that was leased out of Georgia to a federal agency.
There is ANOTHER photo ( also found by Marti ) that appears to show Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball sitting in a ‘lime/yellow’ ATV ( similar to the one in the Delange photos ) at the Ranch House Restaurant.
It’s one of those now-famous David Kadlubowski photos and here is just one article online where that photo appears…
Firehouse eZine
Article Title: Nineteen Firefighters Killed Battling Arizona Wildfire
Published: June 30, 2013 – late evening.
http://www.firehouse.com/news/10979226/eighteen-firefighters-confirmed-killed-in-az-wildfire
In the photo at the top of the article, taken by David Kadlubowski, there is a firefighter in a ‘Blue’ helment seen on the extreme left side of the photograph.
This appears to be Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball and he appears to be ‘sitting’ in the lime/yellow ATV that he had borrowed earlier that afternoon from the Yarnell Fire Station.
It is still not known who that ATV actually BELONGED to… but on Sunday, June 30, 2013… someone apparently knew it was sitting at the Yarnell Fire Station when it came time for Cory Ball to perform his “scout dozer line to protect Glen Ilah” assignment that he was given by SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
The regular Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV was not available to Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball for that ‘scout dozer line near Glen Ilah’ assignment because Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown were still actively using the BR Polaris Ranger in the timeframe when Gary Cordes gave Cory Ball this “scout dozer line near Glen Ilah” assignment.
I need to correct what I said: Two quads at the fire strike on Friday should have been one yellow and white quad with two people aboard. Cindy’s sister is still alive and likely has the photos that Cindy took that day. We do not know where the sister is located or even if in this town. If we do find out we will approach her to see if we can get a copy of that Friday photo.
I do personally remember the talk we had with Cindy at the library before she passed. That day Joy and I were chided by the librarian for talking with Cindy about the fire and that photo. So we had to go outside to talk further. The librarian was getting tired of us discussing the fire regularly with patrons–a small library and they did not want to hear another word about the fire. They said why did we not forget it and go on with life. We were instructed to keep the Yarnell Hill Fire discussion out of the library. Wouldn’t some other folks wish it were not discussed and challenged concerning what we were given by SAIR et. al.
Cindy was no run of the mill person–I read her as quite intelligent and up to date about things. She was going to get back to Joy with the photo but died before that happened. Too many of the locals have died just suddenly. In her case she looked healthy and with outward appearances you would have never believed cancer would be the cause..
Sonny… I still think it remains highly LIKELY that if anyone there in Yarnell ( or from Peeples Valley Fire Department ) actually HAD a ‘quad’ available on Friday afternoon… that they probably WOULD have ‘driven up there’ to at least take a look at the fire… especially since we know that all the local FFs in that area were all very familiar with the ‘two-tracks’ in that area and that they could, in fact, just ‘drive up there’ in a ‘quad’ exactly the way Blueridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown did at 11:55 AM on Sunday morning… in THEIR Polaris Ranger UTV.
It was only Jake Guadiana and the Lewis Crew ( on Saturday morning ) who didn’t seem to know this could be done… and Guadiana reported back to Russ Shumate that there was “no way to hike to the fire”.
Now… why someone ( or two ) would have taken the trouble to go all the way up there to just LOOK at it… and not also have realized that they should have tried to DO something about it ( the new fire start ) as well… would remain the 19 million dollar question.
I remember Cindy telling us that one person had a long tool of some sort in his hand. She said the problem was the distance of the photo and resolution was bad at the distance so whether it was a shovel or something else she could not say.
Well… just offhand… I would say that if someone was relating that kind of DETAIL about a photo… there’s a really good chance that photo does, in fact, exist.
I hope it ‘turns up’.
Maybe one of us here could ENHANCE it well enough to tell exactly whether that really is a ‘tool’… or not.
Something about getting up to the fire on Friday, June 28, 2013—It would have quite easily been done with a quad and I would have taken it in a 4×4 such as my Geo Tracker. Since the fire it has rained heavily and because the vegetation had burned off the run off was very heavy—enough to wash out the two track up to where the fire started so that it now has deep ruts. Even now though one could make it up there with a 4×4 ATV but with more difficulty.
There are two or three ways to get to the fire line. The two track runs from Peoples Valley and when hiking there after the fire we saw ATV tracks coming in from the Peeples valley direction on the two track that meets up with where GMHS went up to the South fork of the road past the old grader. Also we observed a cowboy on his horse with a group of dogs following along. This was after the fire and when Joy and I were headed up to the top when JoAnn Dodder was about to have that news conference along with other media people at the deployment site. Later I tracked the horseman and he had come down from the place where the fire had started. Where we saw him was along where the GMHS had dropped off the two track toward Helms ranch.
You bring up good points ( as usual ), Sonny.
And more “Lessons to be Learned”.
In country like that… and areas like the Weavers so close to ‘towns’… you have to wonder why more fire departments don’t have more ‘mounted’ capability.
Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown proved, without a shadow of a doubt, that UTV/ATV vehicles could just ‘drive up’ to exactly where the fire was, no problem.
That ‘Helispot’ that they used up there near the fire used to just be a ‘hang gliding’ launch pad… and it was also easily reachable by UTV/ATV or Horse.
ALL the local firefighters seemed to know ALL about these two-tracks that ran ‘up’ there from various directions AND that they ran the entire length of the ridge ( from south in Yarnell north up to Peeples Valley ) once you got up there.
The only people that did NOT seem to know this was the ‘Arizona Forestry’ people… Russ Shumate, Jake Guadiana, Lewis Crew, etc. etc.
If you read Russ Shumate’s own account of his failed Initial Attack on Saturday… he leaves you with the impression that he never even TALKED to any of the ‘locals’ to find out about all these ‘two tracks’ and how to gain access to the fire.
The fire started just a few hundred yards beyond what some maps show as the actual ‘City Limits’ of BOTH Peeples Valley AND Yarnell… and BOTH of those ‘towns’ had their own ‘fire departments’.
The Arizona Cooperative Fire Suppression agreements state unequivocally that neither one of these ‘fire departments’ needed anyone’s PERMISSION to jump all over that fire and take care of it… if THEY decided it represented ANY kind of ‘threat’ to their area of responsibility.
So maybe ( even now ), those ‘local’ fire departments should be making sure they have some ‘mounted’ capability… for when the same situation arises again.
Horses are even cheaper than ATVs.
It’s Arizona.
You would think people who would know how to drive a horse up there would be standing on just about every street corner.
We have plenty of cowboys in and around town. There are even horses kept right in town so we do have quite a few equestrian buffs along with the cowboys. Maughan Ranch has about 50 head or so of horses right in Peeples Valley and I think an airplane hanger there somewhere as well. You can bet they have plenty of ATV’s and 4×4 pickups as well.
I think where the local people fell down and will continue to err is to think they can depend upon a local fire department to keep their town from burning. I doubt though that this will be any kind of lesson.
There has however been a change in the main guard with a new fire chief. It remains to be seen how they will handle the next lightening strike. If I am able, I for one will be there immediately to see what can be done since the record shows that both Congress (10 miles distant), Yarnell (2-3miles distant) and Peeples Valley Fire Department (some 4 miles distant) never bothered to take action immediately even though the situation of extreme fire danger was posted and well known by all three departments. Neither have they said one word as far as I know to defend their inaction.
Grant was denied any access to where his son died. I don’t know the particulars but if that is not a raw deal, nothing is. You would never be able to keep him away but that is what we were told.
I am still waking up or my coffee wasn’t strong enough. One were? Those Brits are wiggling in their chairs as to how this Irishman mangles the Engilsh language. -Imeach.
Sonny said and I will reply in CAPS:
Grant was denied any access to where his son died. I THINK YOU ARE REFERRING TO A VISIT WE HAD WITH GRANT AND HE TALKED ABOUT THE NOT SO EQUAL ON EVENTS ON THE AFTERMATH TO ALL LOVED ONES BUT I DO NOT THINK HE WAS RESTRICTED JUST HE WON’T BE LED OR GUIDED OR CALL SOME GUY AND IF HE EVER HAPPENS TO BE IN AREA HE NORMALLY JUST POPS AT RANCH HOUSE RESTAURANT AREA—I DO NOT THINK SONNY HE WAS THE ONE PERSONALLY RESTRICTED JUST WAS IN REFERENCE TO EVENTS FOR THE LOVED ONES AFTER THE TRAGEDY WAS NOT SHOWN A STRAIGHT ACROSS FAIRNESS WAS ALL—BUT THEN AGAIN REALLY NONE OF THE AFTERMATH HAS—
I don’t know the particulars but if that is not a raw deal, nothing is. You would never be able to keep him away but that is what we were told. YOU SAID IT TO THE PUBLIC WRONG—HE JUST DOES NOT FEEL HE HAS TO INFORM ANYONE WHEN AND IF HE WANTS TO VISIT HIS SON IN PRIVATE WAS ALL—
I am still waking up or my coffee wasn’t strong enough. NO- IT WAS; “HEART”; REMEMBER One were? Those Brits are wiggling in their chairs as to how this Irishman mangles the Engilsh language. -Imeach. I THOUGHT YOU SAID IMPEACH…
IRISH ABROAD- R WE-TIME IS A GOOD STORYTELLER IN THE STORY OF THE YHF—DOG WITH TWO MICKIES—WEAK AS A KITTEN—
Slán leat—
?
Calvin,
Ball was likely scouting for his dozer, maybe structure protection. Yes, I have seen some of his photos.
Reply to calvin post on February 2, 2016 at 3:57 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> For my own clarity. The SAIR says Frisby thought Eric meant a ranch to the
>> north, but this was later found to be false after the release of what? BR notes,
>> Helmet cam footage? I do not remember.
That statement in the SAIR is still assumed to just be a ‘made up piece of ‘fiction’ and a ‘thought’ being ‘inserted’ into Frisby’s head… because when they released their OWN Investigation notes… there was no such ‘thought’ recorded.
Quite the opposite.
Even their OWN investigation notes confirmed that Frisby never seemed to have ever ‘said’ or ‘thought’ any such thing.
Whoever actually ‘authored’ that section of the SAIR chose these words…
On PDF page 30 of the SAIR…
——————————————————————-
As BR Supt is en route to pick up drivers to move the Granite Mountain crew carriers, SPGS1 contacts him to ask if they still have the option to burn out from the dozer line. BR Supt tells him no. DIVS A, hearing the transmission, agrees and says he believes the fire is almost as far as the Granite Mountain vehicles. A moment later, DIVS A says, “I want to pass on that we’re going to make our way to our escape route.” BR Supt attempts to clarify, “You guys are in the black, correct?” DIVS A responds, “Yeah, we’re picking our way through the black.” DIVS A then mentions a road in the bottom and “going out toward the ranch.” BR Supt thinks DIVS A is talking about heading northeast, through the black, to one of the ranches in that direction. BR Supt says, “DIVS A, to confirm, you’re talking about the road you saw me on with the UTV earlier, in the bottom.” DIVS A replies, “Yes, the road I saw you on with the Ranger [the UTV].”
——————————————————————–
Then… when the SAIT Investigation Notes were released… all we see to back up that section of the SAIR narrative is the following…
———————————————————————
Cordes wants to know if the Rd to GM is an option, Eric says I copy fire is progressed to the buggies, Also going to make our way through out escape route. Brian asks are you in good black? Eric says “picking our way through the black to the rd in the bottom out towards the ranch” Brian thinks he meant towards the 2 track. To confirm Brian says, “the rd we came on w/ the ranger…affirm.” Brian thought GM would come down the same rd him and Trew went (up) on.
———————————————————————
So right there in their own ‘Investigation Notes’ they recorded what Brian Frisby appears to have told them he REALLY ‘thought’ about what Marsh said…
“Brian thought GM would come down the same rd him and Trew went (up) on.”
But then they suddenly decide to ‘change his thoughts’ in the published SAIR…
“BR Supt thinks DIVS A is talking about heading northeast, through the black, to one of the ranches in that direction.”
When the actual Blue Ridge Unit Logs were finally released… same story.
NOWHERE in Brian Frisby’s own handwritten ‘Unit Log’ is there ANY evidence that he ever had any such ‘thought’ that Marsh was “heading northeast, through the black, to one of the RANCHES in that direction”.
From the same ‘timeframe’… in Frisby’s own words…
———————————————————————————————-
I was called by ( xxxxxx Cordes? ) on TAC 1 and he asked if burning the two-track
was still an option. I told him no and that if it hasn’t yet it will burn over the two-track
very quickly. He copied and ( xxxxx Eric ) called and agreed with what I said and he said where
the trucks were parked was all black. (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) I copied and (xxxxxx) and I headed east
on the dozer line to check on our guys and see how far the fire had progressed.
————————————————————————————————
There IS, in fact, a full sentence-and-a-half that has been REDACTED by U.S. Forestry Officials right in the middle of this part of Frisby’s Unit Log.
And based on Frisby’s “I copied” statement immediately following the redaction, then what was REMOVED was obviously something else that Frisby recalls hearing from Eric Marsh over the radio, at that time.
Based on Frisby’s handwriting and his general ‘average number of words per sentence’ in his Unit Log… that ‘sentence-and-a-half’ redaction could have only contained about 19 to 20 words.
So I suppose that remains the ONLY possibility where Frisby *might* have said something ( in his own Unit Log ) about what he *thought* Marsh said and/or what he ( Frisby ) *thought* Marsh ‘meant’…
…but if there is something ‘hidden’ there about ‘thought he meant a ranch up north’, then you have to consider at least TWO important things…
1. That would STILL stand in direct CONTRADICTION to what the SAIT’s own Brian Frisby interview notes say he ‘thought’.
Once again… the ONLY ( unredacted ) evidence we have of what Brian Frisby actually *thought* about what Marsh said is…
“Brian thought GM would come down the same rd him and Trew went (up) on.”
Absolutely NOTHING there about “a ranch to the north”.
2. If there really is/was something in those 19 or 20 ‘redacted’ words about what ‘thoughts’ might have gone through Brian Frisby’s mind that day… and those ‘thoughts’ he might have written down in his own handwriting would, in ANY way, support the ‘mind reading’ that eventually appeared in the SAIR document… then WHY would they REDACT it at all?
The more LIKELY scenario for the REDACTION is that whatever Brian might have written down right there in that sentence-and-a-half… it probably did NOT support the ‘thought’ they would eventually willy-nilly INSERT into his head in the final SAIR document, because THAT ‘ranch to the north’ thought supported THEIR ‘narrative’.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Also. This information that Marsh passed along “Headed to ranch” to Frisby,
>> most likely occurred when Frisby picked up Donut and called Eric on Donut’s radio?
Not according to the SAIR, or the YIN notes, or even Frisby’s own handwritten Unit Log.
See the same ‘quote’ from the SAIR up above.
The SAIT seemed to think this happened AFTER that… right after Frisby had already dropped Brendan off at the GM Supt and Chase trucks and was heading south to ‘expedite’ the BR crew drivers getting back to the GM trucks… AND right AFTER Gary Cordes called BR Supt. Brian Frisby in this same timeframe and wanted to know if there was still an option for an emergency burn-out on along the ‘two-track’ ( Frisby said “no” ).
When Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log was finally released… that ‘timing’ was supported. Frisby also recalls hearing whatever it was that Marsh said about “travelling in the black” only AFTER he had that conversation with Cordes about whether burning out the two-track was still any kind of ‘option’.
So the TIMING on WHEN this mysterious exchange took place is….
1. Shortly AFTER Frisby had already dropped Brendan off at the GM Supt and Chase trucks, circa 1548.
2. Shortly BEFORE all the drivers were delivered back to the GM trucks circa 1555 – 1600 and they all headed SOUTH and ‘out of there’ and over to the Youth Camp.
What has always remained interesting in this ‘timeframe’ is that Captain Brown reported having his own ‘conversation’ with Marsh right over the GM Crew-Net radio channel WHILE he ( Brown ) was driving the GM Chase truck down from where it had been parked.
Brown reports ( in his OWN Unit Log )…
————————————————————–
( Brian ) drops off the ( GM lookout ) off at the trucks and comes back for me and grabs me with the ranger, and we head up to the ( GM ) supt and chase trucks. I jump in their chase… and we pick up our guys in their ( the GM ) buggies who fall into the convoy. I have the front and ( xxxxxx ) brings up the rear. At this time I jump on THEIR CREW RADIO and talk with ( Eric Marsh ) about where we are taking the buggies and the situation down here… ( Eric ) mentions that they are trying to come down off the hill. He mentions traveling through the black.
——————————————————————-
Again… absolutely NO mention ( on Brown’s part ) of the word ‘ranch’ coming from Eric Marsh… not in THEIR ( separate ) conversation over the private GM Crew-Net, anyway.
Just something about ‘coming down off the hill’ and ‘traveling through the black’.
But since we are now KNOWN to be in the 1555 to 1600 timeframe for when the GM vehicles were being ‘driven out’… and we also KNOW, now, that Marsh was ALREADY traveling SOUTH up on the ridge and “working his way off the top”… Marsh was LYING to Brown.
Here is the SAME EVENT Brown described in his ‘Unit Log’
as reported in the SAIT’s interview with him ( Trew = Trueheart Brown )…
———————————————————————
Trew goes in GM chase truck calls Eric can you see me? Where the dozer line took off? We are bumping the trucks to the shrine…Eric says affirm I know where that’s at ( Trew can tell Eric is moving and talking (and) that he’s exerting himself ) Trew tells Eric we will keep your trucks and Brendan until you meet up with them…copy.
———————————————————————
Notice the part that appears in the SAIT version… but NOT in Brown’s own Unit Log…
“Trew can tell Eric is moving and talking (and) that he’s exerting himself”.
From what we know NOW… at 1555 to 1600… Marsh WAS ‘moving and exerting’ himself in that timeframe… and he was already most likely ‘out of sight’ to the SOUTH from Jesse’s location at the anchor point ( Which is why Jesse felt the need to TELL Marsh where the fireline was in the 1555 MacKenzie video clip ).
So even while Brown is moving the vehicles and having his OWN conversation with Eric Marsh… Eric Marsh was LYING TO HIM about “traveling through the black”.
In the 1555 to 1600 timeframe… Marsh had ALREADY been ‘out of the black’ and traveling SOUTH towards the BSR for probably 10 to 15 minutes… and was ( by that time ) probably already descending into the box canyon full of explosive unburned fuel.
He was LYING to people about what he was ACTUALLY doing, in this timeframe.
Thanks WTK
“Brian thought GM would come down the same rd him and Trew went (up) on.”
I assume this means the same road GM walked in on earlier that morning?
This would have been in the same timeframe as the GM buggies/trucks were being moved or after they were moved? 1545ish?
Frisby thought they were walking down directly into the flaming front that was at or near the grader at that time, cutting off their path?
What am I missing? Where can I find the REDACTED BR unit logs? I cant find them anymore.
Reply to calvin post on February 3, 2016 at 7:26 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> “Brian thought GM would come down the same rd him and Trew
>> went (up) on.”
>>
>> I assume this means the same road GM walked in on earlier that morning?
Yes.
Even the SAIR stated this, and flat-out contradicted itself in the very same paragraph. Right after the SAIT team ‘inserted’ that ‘thought’ into Brian Frisby’s head about a ‘ranch to the north’… they followed it right up with confirming that that is NOT what Frisby thought at all…
From the SAIR…
——————————————————
BR Supt says, “DIVS A, to confirm, you’re talking about the road you saw me on with the UTV earlier, in the bottom.” DIVS A replies, “Yes, the road I saw you on with the Ranger [the UTV].”
——————————————————
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> This would have been in the same timeframe as the GM buggies/trucks
>> were being moved or after they were moved? 1545ish?
Yes… but it was slightly LATER than ‘1545 ish’.. More like 1549 ish.
Frisby says that exchange with Marsh took place WHILE he was using the UTV Ranger to “go and get” the drivers for the GM vehicles and ferry them back to where Brendan was now waiting at the GM vehicles… and taking his 1549 photographs at that location.
This ‘conversation’ must have IMMEDIATELY preceded the 1550 conversation between Marsh and OPS1 Todd Abel that was captured in the Caldwell video.
Matter of fact… OPS1 Todd Abel might have called Marsh immediately after Marsh talked with Frisby because Abel might have HEARD that same conversation, on the open TAC 1 channel, and wanted to VERIFY with Marsh that they were going to “hunker and be safe”.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Frisby thought they were walking down directly into the flaming
>> front that was at or near the grader at that time, cutting off their path?
Well… there is no ‘evidence’ that is what Frisby ‘thought’… but that can only mean that even though Frisby (apparently) VERIFIED with Marsh ( during that conversation ) that he meant “the road that we came up to see you on in the Ranger, right?”… and Marsh said “YES”… Frisby didn’t think much of that or made any followup call to make sure Marsh wasn’t going to ‘walk into the flames’.
If Frsiby ‘thought’ anything once Marsh CONFIRMED with him what ‘road’ he was talking about… it must have been that Frisby thought Marsh meant they were going to just wait a few minutes… and then come back down the way they walked up in the BLACK… AFTER the fireline burned over that exit route.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> What am I missing?
Not a thing. It is still a ‘mystery’ what Frisby actually ‘thought’ once he CONFIRMED with Mash that he was supposedly thinking about coming down on the exact same two-track that Frisby and Brown used to get up there for the NOON face-to-face… which was the same two-track GM used that morning to get up there in the first place.
There is NO evidence that even once that was supposedly ‘straightened out’ with Marsh… that Frisby made any kind of follow-up response like…
“Copy that… but you ARE going to wait until the fire passes over that two-track BEFORE you start coming down… RIGHT?”
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Where can I find the REDACTED BR unit logs? I cant find them anymore.
They are still where John Dougherty first published them…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Blue Ridge Hotshots’ reports provide insight into
Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy
Published: February 15, 2014 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/blue-ridge-interview-provides-new-insight-into-yarnell-hill-disaster/
Direct link to the PDF file containing the REDACTED Blue Ridge Unit Logs is…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/combined-blue-ridge-materials.pdf
Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log is at the BOTTOM of this document, and starts on PDF page 35 ( out of 40 pages ).
Not only are Frisby’s Log pages heavily REDACTED, like all the other Unit Logs, Frisby’s Unit Log has PAGES MISSING.
Frisby’s Unit Log ENDs (abruptly) on PDF page 40 ( of 40 )… and it ends in mid-sentence.
The last thing on the last page of what USFS released for Brian Frisby has him describing what he and Trueheart Brown were doing just before they left the Youth Camp, which was ‘bombing around’ in their UTV Polaris Ranger and urging the other FFs in the Youth Camp to ‘get out’…
Last entry, last page of Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
———————————————————————————
We headed out to the old Youth Camp.
When we ( Frisby and Brown ) got there a member of the
TaskFroce ( Bob Brandon ) asked if they needed to go. We
told him yes and he started calling on the radio and hitting the siren
on his truck. His crew came out and they left. I tried multiple times
to call ( xxxxxxx ) on Tac 1, 2 and 3 without luck.
I then told ( Brown ) needed to drive up the draw and push those guys out.
Our crew had loaded up and left. As we got to the top of the draw we ran
into a group of 3 or 4 folks, we told them they needed to get in there trucks
and leave. The individual said they were leaving but there were more and they
weren’t listening. We kept driving up the draw and saw the rest of them
pushing out. We told them that they needed to hurry and we followed them out.
When we got back to there trucks I stressed to
them that they needed to hurry. We were getting
getting multiple spots and…”
———————————————————————————
Frisby’s Unit Log entry abruptly ENDS mid-sentence, and ALL other pages describing the rest of the events that day are MISSING.
Followup…
Those pages that have ALWAYS been MISSING from Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log still remain one of the most important pieces of ‘unseen evidence’.
Think about what they would actually contain.
Brian Frisby’s OWN ‘account’ of all of the following things…
1. What he actually might have SAID to Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson, who was the person he and Brown first met on the side of the road at the Shrine of St. Joseph as they were evacuating. Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log is NOT missing any ‘pages’, but all Brown says about this moment is…
“We drive out a ways and run into ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell from the Prescott National Forest ). We give them the INTEL we have and then we all head out towards the highway”.
That’s it. Brown gives absolutely NO indication what this ‘INTEL we have” was even ABOUT, or whether Eric Marsh and/or Granite Mountain were discussed with the “Three Prescotteers’ at that moment.
NOTE: One of the Hulburd videos captures this moment… but Frisby and Brown stopped the Ranger in the distance, where the dirt road met the pavement, and Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell then had to walk TOWARDS Frisby and Brown, who had stopped first to talk to Jason Clawson. By the time Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell reached the Blue Ridge UTV, at least a minute had gone by without us being able to hear what Frisby and Brown might have been saying to Jason Clawson.
So maybe Brian Frisby’s ‘missing Unit Log’ notes about this might have mentioned more about this “We give them the INTEL we have” moment.
2. What Frisby might have actually heard over the radio during the MAYDAY sequence… or even just before that. There is still some evidence that there was other radio traffic over the TAC channel(s) from Granite Mountain just PRIOR to Steed’s first MAYDAY heard on the A2G channel at 1639.
3. Exactly what ‘information’ was gathered by Frisby and Brown in those moments in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot while they were preparing for the ‘ground rescue mission’… and WHO this information might have been coming from.
It is still not clear exactly WHY Frisby and Brown seemed to know that the first place they should try to ‘break through’ to find Granite Mountain was out there at the west end of Glen Ilah. Did someone ( Brendan? Cordes? Musser? ) actually tell them THAT is most likely where they were?
If not… then WHY did they make their first ‘breakthrough’ attempts in THAT direction… and only later ‘default’ to go back up to check the area where they had last seen them… up at that anchor point?
4. Maybe Frisby also ‘recalled’ some conversations he might have heard, in person, AFTER finding the deployment site and the bodies and during that time he went back and forth to the Boulder Springs Ranch and then guided OPS1 Todd Abel back out there.
5. OTHER things?
The bottom line here is that however many PAGES are actually MISSING from Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log… it may have been the case that when US Forestry realized that they were going to want to REDACT almost ALL of what Frisby was recalling after leaving the Youth Camp… then rather than release 3, 4 or 5 pages of TOTAL BLACKOUTS… they just decided to go ahead and ‘chop off’ those crucial pages and make it look like Frisby’s Unit Log actually ENDED even BEFORE the deployment radio traffic.
Part of that intel at the Shrine would have been they were lighting up a burnout or back burn–whatever crew was there. Joy and I both saw that video and never could get it back –yet the immediate followup has been posted lately. Where is the video as recorded just prior to that but aparantly in cyber space now. Is it possible for U tube videos to be deleted without record?
Instead of Marsh lying could it be that the report itself is lying considering all the redactions?
Reply to Sonny post on February 3, 2016 at 12:14 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Instead of Marsh lying could it be that the report itself is lying
>> considering all the redactions?
Well… there is enough of both Brian Frisby’s and Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log(s) left UNDREDACTED to establish that if they are accurately reporting what Eric Marsh said to them… in the 1550 to 1600 timeframe… then Eric Marsh pretty much MUST have been LYING to them during THOSE ‘conversations’.
I’m not talking about the references to ‘being in the black’ that flew around on the radio at the moment Frisby was informing Marsh/Steed that he had just accidentally come across Brendan evacuating his lookout position.
At THAT time ( 1541 )… it’s pretty much a given that ALL of Granite Mountain ( Eric Marsh included ) were, in fact, either already at the ‘rest spot’ or still actively ‘gathering’ there.
OPS2 Paul Musser then called Marsh at 1542 and that is when this (supposed) ‘availability’ check took place between Eric Marsh and Paul Musser.
But from what Brendan has now ‘testified’ to in his interview at Wildfire today… and from other evidence… it pretty much has to be the case that Eric Marsh ‘took off’ to the SOUTH on his “scouting mission” to the Boulder Springs Ranch almost immediately AFTER having that “availability check” radio conversation with Musser at 1542.
So that puts Eric Marsh ALREADY hiking SOUTH towards the Boulder Springs Ranch when he would then have these other radio conversations 5-10 minutes later with Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown.
It was during THOSE conversations ( in the 1549 to 1600 timeframe ) when Marsh supposedly told them things like “We’re picking our way through the black”, and other references to “traveling in the black”.
If Marsh really had ‘taken off’ SOUTH and was ALREADY “scouting ahead” to the BSR in that timeframe…
…then we was intentionally LYING to Frisby and Brown ( and anyone else he might have said ‘traveling through the black’ to ).
He was NOT ‘traveling in the black’. ( at that point ). No way.
By 1555 to 1600… Marsh was already ‘out of sight’ ( to the SOUTH ) from the anchor point and could have already been descending, himself, into the box canyon filled with explosive, unburned fuel.
WTKTT posted: “It was during THOSE conversations ( in the 1549 to 1600 timeframe ) when Marsh supposedly told them things like “We’re picking our way through the black”, and other references to “traveling in the black”.
“…then we was intentionally LYING to Frisby and Brown ( and anyone else he might have said ‘traveling through the black’ to ).
“He was NOT ‘traveling in the black’. ( at that point ). No way.”
It’s POSSIBLE that he/they was/were actually “picking their way through the black.” Their handline was from their lunch spot in the Safety Zone out to the mid-slope road.
So, Marsh, being disingenuous, could have actually been picking his way through the black along the marginally chainsaw-cut handline as he/they hiked out to the mid-slope road.
When hiking that route in October 2013, the chainsaw cut was pretty marginal, and so you literally had to grab and move some of the uncut brush aside as you walked along their handline out to the mid-slope road.
It definitely fits Marsh’s disingenuous and sneaky attitude, letting the overhead know only partial truths. Basically, lying by omission.
It’s tenuous but possible.
Just as a point of ‘clarification’, and in order to better understand what you are suggesting above, exactly WHICH ‘road’ are you referring to above when you say “the mid-slope road”?
Are you referring to that ‘leg’ of the two-track that comes up FROM the old-grader and ends up at that ‘T’ intersection with the high-ridge two-track?
Or are you referring to that ‘leg’ of the high-ridge two-track that did, in fact, lead SOUTH from the ‘anchor area rest spot’ and on towards the box canyon?
Both of those routes some like the same place to me.
The ‘high-ridge two track’ is what I am calling the mid-slope road.
I did not hike up the route the GMHS hiked from down below or from the grader area.
I hiked up from the BSR, past the fatality site, up the draw to the mid-slope road, then turned right to their handline, then turned right onto their handline to their lunch spot/Safety Zone.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
February 3, 2016 at 7:57 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The ‘high-ridge two track’ is what I am calling the
>> mid-slope road.
Ah… ok. Thanks.
Just some ‘terminology’ differences there.
Yes… as that ‘high ridge two-track’ led SOUTH, and past the ‘T’ intersection that led DOWN to the old-grader… it sort of wound AROUND that next high point as it led towards the ‘Descent Point’ and the box canyon… and it did run sort of ‘mid-slope’ as it approached the saddle.
But as we’ve been describing these things ( as best we can using words and this medium ), it’s simply been my habit ( just me, personally ) to call that whole thing the ‘high ridge two track’.
In other words… if someone asked me to describe the entire ‘alternate escape route’ from the anchor point… I would tend to just say it was the “high ridge two-track that led south, and then took a 90 degree turn to the EAST and descended all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch”.
To me… ‘mid-slope two-track’ seems a simpler reference for that two-track that led DOWN from the ‘T’ intersection and ran DOWN to the old-grader location. The one that Granite Mountain actually hiked UP on that day and the same two-track that Frisby and Brown ‘climbed’ in their Polaris Ranger when they came up for the 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM face-to-face with Marsh and Steed.
All that being said…
Obviously everything was BLACK when you took your hike… but on Sunday, June 30, 2013… there was no BLACK anywhere SOUTH of the ‘anchor point’ ( or pretty much anywhere to the SOUTH of where their ‘handline’ intersected with that area ).
So if Marsh had taken off SOUTH, on what I would call the ‘high ridge two track’ or what you would call the ‘mid-slope road’ ) circa 1545, and just after his conversation with OPS2 Paul Musser at 1542…
…then he would NOT, in any way, have been either “picking his way through the black” and/or been “traveling in the black”.
And most certainly… up to 10 minutes later… when Marsh would have already been at or near the ‘Descent Point’ himself… could it possibly be construed he was “picking his way through” and/or “traveling” in any kind of BLACK.
So if that’s where he was circa 1555 to 1600, when he made these statements to Frisby and Brown… then he was (intentionally) LYING to them about that.
The GMHS was in the black at their lunch spot.Safety Zone according to GMHS photos and video clips.
Their assignment was to go direct (on the black), so it is still possible that he/they was/were walking along the black from there to the high ridge and/or mid-slope road.
The BRHS guys said that the GMHS could have walked the black all the way down to Yarnell from their Safety one.
So then, Marsh was either outright lying or lying by omission being disingenuous about his/their whereabouts and his/their intentions.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on February 3, 2016 at 9:22 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The GMHS was in the black at their
>> lunch spot.Safety Zone according
>> to GMHS photos and video clips.
Yes… but I think you are a little confused about the difference between the ‘lunch spot’ and the place where Christopher MacKenzie shot his videos at 3:55 PM. Those are two different ‘places’.
Look at the diagram on PDF page 6 of the original SAIR report. The ‘lunch spot’ was ‘northeast’ ( and downslope ) of the ‘anchor point’. That final ‘rest spot’ where Christopher MacKenzie took his photos/videos circa 1555 was about where they have the ‘orange dot’ representing the ‘anchor point’… and not over by the ‘red dot’ they have representing the ‘lunch spot’.
BOTH of those location can be considered ‘in the black’, but when Steed and the Crew left to head SOUTH sometime in the 8 minutes between 1556 and 1604… they could then no longer be construed as ‘picking their way through’ any ‘black’ at all.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Their assignment was to go direct (on the
>> black), so it is still possible that he/they
>> was/were walking along the black from
>> there to the high ridge and/or
>> mid-slope road.
I’m now wondering exactly what TIMEFRAME you are imagining this to have been ‘possible’ in?
When Jesse Steed gave the ‘tools up’ order circa 1541:30, and the GM crew began ‘assembling’ in that final ‘rest spot’ up near the ‘anchor point’… then yes… they were probably ‘walking the black edge’ to get up there. Indeed… 3 of Christopher MacKenzie’s photos show them doing exactly that.
However… that is the ONLY timeframe when any phrase like ‘picking our way through the black’ or ‘traveling in the black’ would have been true.
The moment Eric Marsh started “scouting to the south” from the anchor point… there was NO BLACK for him to be ‘picking his way through’ or even ‘traveling through’.
Same for GM. The moment they ‘left’ that final ‘rest spot’ and headed south… they were ‘leaving the black’ altogether and it cannot be truthfully said ( by anyone ) that they were ‘picking their way through the black’ and/or ‘traveling in the black’ as the hiked SOUTH towards the ‘Descent Point’.
Keyword: ‘truthfully’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The BRHS guys said that the GMHS
>> could have walked the black all the way
>> down to Yarnell from their Safety Zone.
After it crossed that two-track they walked up on… yes. No doubt. All they had to do was wait for a few minutes that day… and it would have been a no-brainer to return to Yarnell that way.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So then, Marsh was either outright lying
>> or lying by omission being disingenuous
>> about his/their whereabouts and
>> his/their intentions.
Agree ( even though I think we are not 100 percent ‘in-sync’ on the TIMEFRAMES here ).
My whole point here was that if you accept Brendan’s testimony from his Wildfire Today interview… then Eric Marsh pretty much HAD to have been far enough SOUTH circa 1555 that Jesse Steed felt the need to tell him where the fireline was because he wasn’t even sure where ( down south ) Marsh even was by 1555.
But that is the SAME timeframe ( 1555 to 1600 ) in which we have Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown testifying they heard Marsh telling THEM he was “traveling in the black”.
Not possible ( in that timeframe ).
It is almost as if Eric Marsh had decided that he better keep mentioning “the black” just so that whoever he was talking to wouldn’t “freak out” and start asking him more ‘questions’ about what he was REALLY doing… which was… scouting a path for GM through an explosive fuel-filled box canyon.
The only question or thing no one has talked about here ——
It truly seems that Frisby was a little concerned about what exactly Marsh and GM were doing
as if are they really leaving the Black Safety Zone. Why are they moving and to where? He was not trying to tell them what to do as one Superintendent to another but unsure of why they were moving and to where. He knew Marsh was at times pushing the envelope but unwilling to give him advice. He could have said you guys need to stay in the Black and wait this run out. A crew Boss telling a DIVS what to do would not go over well with Marsh.
Maybe just a indicator of what has been said before GM known for Bad Decisions with good outcomes and Marsh never liked to take advice from other Superintendents ????
The whole discussion between Marsh and Frisby seems to indicate a concern and a evasive reply. Marsh was pushing the envelope and knew it.
WTKTT posted: “It is almost as if Eric Marsh had decided that he better keep mentioning “the black” just so that whoever he was talking to wouldn’t “freak out” and start asking him more ‘questions’ about what he was REALLY doing… which was… scouting a path for GM through an explosive fuel-filled box canyon.”
Agreed.
Frisby asked him if he was ‘in the black’ didn’t he?
Picking their way through the black seems like a misnomer since once that terrain was burned off it looked like the moon surface. I think likely Marsh was picking his way through the brush after walking through the black.
The only line discovered By Putnam and the Niels, and walked to its end was right above the old grader and directed down the hill off the two track for about a hundred yards until the boulders and the dense brush where fire would have been advancing down the east side of that canyon likely gave them reason to return to the two track or else cross directly over to the black. We watched from the two track as Marsh sea sawed back and forth across the black and green. In that area much boulders and sparse enough vegetation allowed that.
If there was any other line they cut that day we did not see evidence of it. I do wonder how long it would have taken the crew to cut that line. I think Wayne Niel said there would have been four or five guys in different groups along the line so I imagine that work was done fairly quickly–maybe in an hour or so? RTS could give a good estimation there since he saw the line they cut.
WTK
video m2u00271 seems to capture Frisby saying Eric decided the trail that follows the ridge in the green? next sentence is frisby saying he found the lookout.
So. I wonder if the comment about the trail along the ridge (fromEric) came before Frisby came across Mcdonough?
So what I hear in that video is Frisby assuring the others they were not in the black. As the others were talking about GM and the black, Frisby interjects with, NO, NO.
Reply to calvin post on February 4, 2016 at 3:51 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> video m2u00271 seems to capture Frisby saying Eric
>> decided the trail that follows the ridge in the green?
>> next sentence is frisby saying he found the lookout.
Correct.
See a longer ‘Reply’ ( and a continuation of this thread ) up above that I posted as a new parent comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-324945
It makes sense they would have known where the GMHS would be going. Helms Ranch is a direct line between the two track where they descended and the Ranch House Café. There was plenty at the Helms that needed protection–over a million in machinery as told to us by locals. Federal contracts still being done there? I don’t have information on that but if you go on line Helms also has a set up in Phoenix. Joy says the income is listed at ten million. That must be some pretty important stuff for the government. To me it makes sense that the ranch needed protection. Tires burned off an old vehicle within 30 ft. of the dwelling Again we were told that the place was cleared two weeks before June 30, 2013 at about the same time that on June 16, 2013 that area was 320 acres was restricted. Obviously the density and extreme fire conditions was a good reason to restrict that area. Just a coincidence that lightening would strike two weeks later and be allowed to burn the whole area around Yarnell and parts of Peeples Valley and half Yarnell. Well who would know that the wind would change and mostly spare Peeples Valley then ravage Yarnell. The wild land fire fighter cadre did not know.
Reply to Sonny post on February 3, 2016 at 7:22 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> There was plenty at the Helms that needed protection–over a
>> million in machinery as told to us by locals. Federal contracts
>> still being done there? I don’t have information on that but if you
>> go on line Helms also has a set up in Phoenix. Joy says the income
>> is listed at ten million. That must be some pretty important stuff
>> for the government.
Lee Helm owns/runs ‘Helm Precision, Ltd.’, a 20,000 square foot precision
machine shop in Phoenix, Arizona. He’s been running it since 1977.
Helm Precision Ltd.
2426 E. Washington St.
Phoenix, AZ 85034
602-275-2122
http://helmprecision.com/
There’s not much there ( not much of a website )… but a quick Google
of ‘Helm Precision, Ltd.’ indicates they do a lot of precision parts manufacturing
for the ‘Aerospace’ industry… and there is evidence of ongoing ‘Goverment contracts’.
Lee Helm’s own Facebook page specifically says he runs an ‘Aerospace’
machine shop…
https://www.facebook.com/pages/HElm-precision-LTD-Aerospace/121208321422271
And yes… if you look at some of the photos that some of the SAIT investigators were allowed to take when they were doing deployment site visits… they were allowed to take some pictures INSIDE the ‘workshops’ that were there.
There is/was, indeed, some VERY expensive equipment inside those ‘workshops’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
All that being said… there is still NO evidence that anything inside or outside the Boulder Springs Ranch had anything to do with WHY Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed or anyone else seemed to think it was so damned important to ‘get there’ that day that it was worth risking ( and LOSING ) their lives.
Even Eric Marsh himself was recorded on the radio at 4:13 PM saying…
“Just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump OUT at”.
So that can still be construed to (possibly) mean the Boulder Springs Ranch itself was NOT “a destination” at all. It was just a “way to get somewhere else”… and DO “something else”.
A “Jumping OFF” ( or OUT ) point for some other “important mission”… like improving an emergency dozer line and/or maybe ( just maybe ) doing some ‘structure protection’ on whatever houses they could reach before the fire did.
OK that does make sense–From the Helms it is an easy hike down a nicely graded gravel road to the pavement and either Foot Hills pavement to the Ranch House or else another route similar, all of which are paved. That hike from Helms to pavement is only a little over a quarter mile as I could estimate. It was the brush that surrounds the Helms that was devastating. Just a few yards away from Helms was the beginning of that brush. We bush whacked through it Sunday morning with an argument right about where the men died—Joy took pictures there that early morning and all you can see is a sea of brush, very intense and difficult to pass through.
If they were intending to doze a trail on the North edge of Glen Ilah then someone would have wanted the crew there perhaps thinking they would do a back burn in that area, but when that wind changed they had to change their minds about that. Something was started there since we know that a bulldozer knocked down Kathy’s father’s wall. They live on the very edge of the north end of Glen Ilah.. Some burning was going on at the Shrine for Yarnell so it was seeming that someone wanted to extend the burning to protect Glen Isla until those winds changed.
I would guess some of the reason the men went along was the hope to get to the ranch house to meet up with the other fire fighting crews and enjoy some of the refreshments and coolness of the restaurant after that long arduous day in the heat. The alternative was a long hike started by a steep incline to top out on the Weaver Ridge. Then there was a long hike down the west side of the Weaver range either to Hwy 89 or else to double back toward Candy Lane. Their only alternative actually would have been to stay in the sparse areas and hit 89 since by the time they would have made it over the Weavers the area to double back would have been cut off by the flaming front that came around the south ridge below Helms and devastated Candy Lane and all the brushy area west of Candy Lane. The boulder area where they are building the trail from the elephant curve would have been an area to safely descend. That area did not get burned due to sparse vegetation.
That has always bothered me that those men deployed in that manzanita rather than getting into the boulders to their south. I kept Joy in the boulders and as near to them as I could until we could get into the fast lane of a gravel road since I saw that as a safe area to go to if that fire got too close. I had already felt the wind shift at the top of the Weavers and had that worry that it could come back our way in a fierce manner. It did and wind velocity picked up fiercely so that by the time we got back to my car on Foothills lane it was already picking up and so were the people there. Coming back that gravel route you still had a place to drop off.
Joy and I dropped off there about a mile before and it is a rough way to hike. But there was no burning due to the boulders and lack of vegetation. As you come up the hill you see Gordy has a sign selling 4 acres for 44 grand. The sigh was there before and still there after the fire–not even smoke damage. It like that above where the men died has a mesa that Gordy has more 4 acre plots that did get burned off and would have roasted anyone in that mesa area that connects to the west end of Candy Lane.
About the boulders, Joy and I knew from previous hikes that there were huge overhangs and boulder piles that are like caves where you can get completely below the surface so that should have saved one, Would have been nice to have something besides a cloth to breath through since smoke would have been bad–but I think enough air to survive. At least the body would not have been roasted.
When we left Glen Isla with Penny the restaurant was loaded with fire fighters and fire fighting vehicles and smoke was even very bad there but they all survived.
Reply to calvin post on February 1, 2016 at 3:33 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> RTS
>>
>> Could you retell the story about being up on the ridge (near or at the lunch/resting
>> spot) with Frisby and other WFF and Frisby pointing off to the north and saying that
>> is where he thought Marsh was talking about moving the GMH crew soon before
>> their deaths?
>>
>> Or Maybe WTK could pull the original comment made by you long ago.
You have to go WAY BACK to November of 2013 to find this ‘conversation’.
That is when RTS first said that he, himself, had stood up at the ‘anchor point’ and some people who were actually standing there with him pointed out some ‘ranch’ to the north that they thought might have been what Marsh was referring to on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
** THE SHORT STORY
What RTS actually said ( back in November of 2013 ) was…
“…that is ‘the ranch’ they were referring to based on what these guys (who were there) told me and pointed out from the GMHS lunchspot SZ.”
So the implication in his statement has always been that (quote) “these guys ( who were there )” were ALSO standing there with RTS at the anchor point and “pointing out” their recollections to him (RTS), sometimein 2013, not long after the tragedy.
Other than the Lewis Crew, Justin Smith and Nate Peck, who all spent the night ‘up there’ and got airlifted out early Sunday morning, there are only 3 people left alive who were ‘there that day’ ( up at the anchor point where Granite Mountain was working ).
Brendan McDonough.
Brian Frisby.
Trueheart Brown.
So the only “those guys (who where there)” that RTS could have been referring to would have been Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown.
It has been known for some time that at least ONE of RTS’s ‘back channels’ is/are members of the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
When RTS first posted this ‘statement’ back in November of 2013, I immediately asked him…
“Do you mind me asking… who were ‘these guys’ who were standing there with you and ‘pointing this out’?”
RTS never answered that question.
If he would like to ‘retell’ the story again now… and CONFIRM ( or deny ) that the (quote) “guys (who were there) told me and pointed out from the GMHS lunchspot SZ.” are, in fact, Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown… that is ( of course ) his business.
** THE LONG STORY
From the previous ‘Chapter’ of this ongoing discussion where RTS first started that ‘ranch to the north’ thread
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-4635
** On November 26, 2013 at 9:42 am, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
WTKTT and Calvin,
In earlier dialogue with the BR Supt and a few other overhead on the fire at the time, the ‘going out toward the ranch’ refers to ANOTHER ranch in the distance. I saw it from the GM HS lunch spot and SZ. It was NOT referring to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
** On November 26, 2013 at 12:01 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth (WTKTT) replied…
RTS… Which WAY ‘in the distance’? …and how far away?
BR Supt and BR Capt were both up there, too, ( on June 30, 2013 ) having that meeting with Marsh and Steed for a half-hour ( according to the SAIR ) from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM. That’s when they (all) decided to use Brendan as a lookout and he traveled back down to the old-grader spot with BR Supt and BR Capt when they left.
Maybe that’s when BR Supt ‘saw something’ in the distance ( just like you say YOU did? ) and that was what he was referring to.
Regardless… Mr. ‘obtuse’ (Marsh) really had an obligation to make himself clear when asked about this that tragic afternoon.
He (Marsh) KNEW that BR was late that day and had missed all the early briefings, and never saw any ‘Google map on an iPad’ or this ‘bomb-proof’ thing to the SOUTH that Marsh was ACTUALLY referring to.
There is a ‘C’ in LCES… and it doesn’t just mean having a ‘working’ radio.
It means ‘communicate “CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY”.
** On November 26, 2013 at 12:23 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) replied…
WTKKT,
To the north a mile or so. Maybe Hays Ranch? From their lunchspot SZ it was across the valley to the north, past what they were watching below them in the McKenzie video segment. It was this fire behavior that changed their mind(s) about going there.
** On November 26, 2013 at 1:21 pm, WTKTT replied…
I believe the Hays Ranch… off to the north and almost in Peeples Valley itself… was ( by June of 2013 ) known as the ‘Double-Bar-A-Ranch’, and it’s where Darrell Willis almost got himself and all those other FFs ‘entrapped’ that day.
That would have been a LOOOONG walk ( from the anchor point ).
I can’t believe anyone who might have thought THAT was the ‘ranch’ Marsh was referring to would not have also thought he was out of his mind to even think of trying to go all THAT way… at THAT later hour… for no good reason.
The fire had already changed direction ( to the SOUTH ).
New fire line. Totally new direction ( south now, not north ).
So if they ( GM ) had just a few minutes… they could have just walked the ‘new black’ behind the south-advancing fire line all the way back to Yarnell… and not set off on a day trip to a ranch way up in Peeples valley.
Marsh never had any intentions of heading north.
The whole issue here is why was that still any kind of point of confusion… even after people were ASKING this guy to ‘be clear’.
Was he PURPOSELY trying to mask what he already knew he wanted to do… because he just didn’t want anyone to tell him NOT to do it?
Did he PURPOSELY lead those poor young kids to their deaths… because of either ‘orders’… or just some insane hero wannabee complex?
Inquiring minds want to know.
On November 26, 2013 at 1:40 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) replied…
WTKTT,
I’ve tried to locate it on GE ( Google Earth ) and that’s the best I could do. Maybe not Hays Ranch per se, but out Hays Ranch road. Below Peeples Valley for sure, beause I recall that over the ridge from this ranch. It was only a few structures too. I know it doesn’t make much sense, but that is ‘the ranch’ they were referring to based on what these guys (who were there) told me and pointed out from the GMHS lunchspot SZ.
On November 26, 2013 at 6:48 pm, WTKTT replied…
>> RTS wrote…
>> I know it doesn’t make much sense, but that is ‘the ranch’ they were referring to
>> based on what these guys (who were there) told me and pointed out from the GMHS
>> lunchspot SZ.
Do you mind me asking… who were ‘these guys’ who were standing there with you and ‘pointing this out’?
I took another quick closeup satellite tour of the entire area, looking for anything that could have even possibly within their sightlines off to the north or northeast that day.
There is a HUGE ‘clearing’ at this exact point which could be mistaken for a ranch ( but it’s not. No buildings at all )…
Latitude: 34.236748
Longitude: -112.779658
34.236748, -112.779658
NOTE: This ‘huge clearing’ shown above is WAAAY out at the end of the ‘Shrine Road’… but would have been the perfect target for sensible ‘walk back’ for them if all they really had wanted to do was get down from there and go home (alive) that day. This clearing would have ALREADY been ‘burned over’ even where the fireline is shown in the 4:02 PM MacKenzie video and there would have been clear ‘new black’ all the way to it. All they would have had to do was hike about halfway across that bowl plain to this clearing… then call Brendan and tell him to get the Carriers all the way out to the end of Shrine road and pick them up right there. A no brainer.
There is also another ‘cow pen’ ( not a ranch ) on a visible line from where GM was working off to the north/northeast towards the Hays Ranch and Peeples valley… but all it has is a fence a watering station…
Another large ‘clearing’ that could also be mistaken for a ranch ( that looks like it also has an old quarry in it ) would be here ( off to the northeast of where they were )…
Latitude: 34.249449
Longitude: -112.782426
34.249449, -112.782426
On a line of sight between where they were and the actual Hays Ranch up in Peeples Valley is a small cowpen that could also be mistaken for a ‘ranch’. It is fenced, but all it has is a small feed and water silo….
Latitude: 34.258844
Longitude: -112.778716
34.258844, -112.778716
Then, of course, WAAAY off in the distance to the north/northeast would have been the Hays Ranch itself at this exact location…
Latitude: 34.269112
Longitude: -112.776423
34.269112, -112.776423
The actual DISTANCE from the ‘anchor point’ where they had been working all the way to the Hays Ranch, even on a direct line of sight, was still a healthy 3.07 miles ( 4.94 km ).
If they had actually tried to go there… they would have had to stick up on the ridge for about 2.5 miles and then try to descend and cut across for another 2 miles making the real trip about 4 miles. That’s totally absurd to even consider that late in the afternoon… and for what? They would have been no better off or closer for a pickup from Brendan with the Carriers than just exiting to the west from where they were and telling Brendan to come get them on Hwy 89.
Other than the points above… I am seeing NOTHING that could have even been possibly construed to be ‘a ranch’ off to their north or northeast that day.
All I see is boondock, other than these points.
Am I missing a spot, somewhere?
Thanks WTK. I really appreciate you.
It would be nice to hear an explanation from RTS about all of this. But I do not expect it.
For my own clarity. The SAIR says Frisby thought Eric meant a ranch to the north, but this was later found to be false after the release of what? BR notes, Helmet cam footage? I do not remember
Also. This information that Marsh passed along “Headed to ranch” to Frisby, most likely occurred when Frisby picked up Donut and called Eric on Donut’s radio?
Thanks again WTK
In Wild Land lingo a ranch could well be a location of private land designated by a fence. Ranch could as well bee the Water tank or other Structures not always buildings.
From the rest area to Hays canyon was less than a 2 mile hike.
Understanding what Marsh said and what Frisby thought is still kind of muddled.
North to the Head of Harper Canyon less than 2 miles 40 Min. Hike in open burned area fairly fast travel. Still only Frisbys assumption Based on what he heard from Marsh.
WTKKT posted: “Mr. ‘obtuse’ (Marsh) really had an obligation to make himself clear when asked about this that tragic afternoon.”
“Marsh never had any intentions of heading north.”
Absolutely, Marsh had an ‘obligation to make himself clear’ about his intentions and such. It’s the “C” in LCES, however, it fits with Marsh’s disingenuous behavior.
And yes, I also believe that ‘Marsh never had any intentions of heading north.’ I believe he was going to direct the GMHS to leave their Safety Zone, no matter what.
HOWEVER, the BRHS said that when they talked with Marsh on TAC earlier that day, that that was their ASSUMPTION, that he/they was/were heading north into the black, ‘because no one would head out into the unburned, into the green.’
And so that is why the BRHS and the 3 PNF employees was/were looking to the NORTH for the GMHS, after their deployment and directing the DPS helicopter to do the same.
As far as the conversation on some other ranch to the north, I’ll just take your word for it. It’s not worth the effort.
And Calvin, WTF? You are such a pessimist not expecting an explanation.
Thanks RTS for posting that link to the Dead Man Zone video on U Tube. Interestingly the rate of fire advance doubles for every 10 degree of slope. In extreme conditions on level ground it goes at 250 m per five minutes, 500 on a ten degree slope, then 1000 gulping meters on a 20 degree slope. Add to that the wind factor and chimney effect in canyons you can see the figure doubling, tripling and quadrupling depending on the wind and canyon. Those men had no chance if you look at Yarnell, the extreme wind that afternoon, the uphill advance toward them of 10-20 degree slope, the canyon and the fact that only a small degree in wind change would cut trap them in the canyon.
Do you think Marsh and Steed knew the LCES rules and what a dead man zone was? Looking at Donut’s talk it seemed that the men knew very little and I can bet a dollar to a donut that he could not tell you what LCES means. Do you think the only thing they did was strenuous exercises and the rest was on party time or church talk? There seems to have been very little knowledge of how to keep alive among those men. The only survivor excaped only by the skin of his teeth.
Well they certainly set an example of how not to be a hot shot.
+
Sonny,
You posted: “Do you think Marsh and Steed knew the LCES rules and what a dead man zone was? Looking at Donut’s talk it seemed that the men knew very little and I can bet a dollar to a donut that he could not tell you what LCES means. Do you think the only thing they did was strenuous exercises and the rest was on party time or church talk? There seems to have been very little knowledge of how to keep alive among those men. The only survivor excaped only by the skin of his teeth.
“Well they certainly set an example of how not to be a hot shot.”
Yes, I believe that Marsh and Steed knew the LCES and the rest of the WFF Rules. rules. I helped train Steed and had a few like conversations with Marsh, including ceasing his attitude of having to constantly prove himself.
As far as whether or not they knew of the Dead Man Zone, I’m not sure. It is basically Watchouts 10 and 11 – Attempting Frontal Assault on a Fire and Unburned Fuel Between You and the Fire. So, using inductive logic, I would say it is likely they did.
I think they did much more than strenuous exercise, party, and church talk. That was NOT what got them killed.
I think there was a lot of KNOWLEDGE about how to keep themselves alive. They were all pretty smart men in their own ways.
Among other things, what killed them was the overly risky attitude of getting away with things over and over without harm. Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes. The Normalization of Deviance.
I contend it was a Steady Drift Into Failure that kept compounding from when they finally achieved Hot Shot status in the Fall of 2008, and with their first ‘official’ HS season in 2009.
And yes, ‘they certainly set an example of how not to be a hot shot.’ And to answer Woodsman’s question, that should lead every WFF Supervisor to be cognizant of – and then address – this kind of risky attitude when and if they become aware of it, with all WFF Resources, especially HS Crews. The GMHS stood the WFF Rules on their head.
Otherwise, you become part of the problem. Your silence implies your approval and consent. Be part of the solution instead.
Thanks for the answer. It appears then that Marsh and Steed were in gross error, and it appears that they did not adhere your training or to rules of safety much. That was poor leadership considering that they were responsible for 17 young lives under their command.
It still is highly unimaginable, after a person has knowledge of the Dead Man Zone link you provided and other information available that Marsh and Steed could skirt the rules so wantonly. Were they alive I am certain that they would be facing charges, yet I have suspicions that there are more that should face charges were a proper investigation completed. Just the refusal of a local fire department to attend the lightning strike seems to me criminal.
I do salute you, since I know from your posts and links that you would have denied any crazy orders and would have prepared your men. I doubt you would have one saying the rules are hill billy if he wanted to stay a wild land fire fighter on your team.
It does seem that many young fighters have no clue as to how to keep alive. When you see a cowboy that has better sense of keeping alive than the young fire fighter (Rick McKensie) and telling them not to get caught in that manzanita–then they are lacking in training. McKensie has been in that kind of brush and knows.
Then too, I think of Dr. Ted Putnam, the smoke jumper of many years. He saved a couple young wild land fighters who were even going against his orders to remain put and not go down into a canyon that they had been ordered by radio to do from another higher boss. Only cursing and threats stopped those two, and the fire did change and would have overtaken those two had they gone down in that canyon. It tells me that too many are willing to listen to superiors without their own basic understanding that a seasoned fighter such as Ted or you would have. It begs the idea that there needs to be plenty of money set aside to train these young men.
Certainly Marsh and especially Steed if he were on the two track with Marsh below, had a look out view of things and would damn well know he was risking his life and the lives of 17 others to go down into that maze with the fire blazing away. That after all was a fire eating monster even at ll:30 am that Sunday when I asked Joy to time it taking over a mountain with no wind behind it. We estimated a half mile or more of burning in less than 14 minutes. Through that brush and over those boulders you can’t do a half mile in 14 minutes. Consider that just down the hill from two track to the death spot takes 22 minutes for a seasoned fit marathon runner and that is less than a half mile and with all the impeding brush burned away.
But things like that little bit of knowledge can only be learned by training. Maybe the yahoos who ran this fire will petition the Governor and Karen Fann to put out another law to set aside another 500 thousand and another 320 acres of brush to train these fellows in. It would be certain to save lives and pay dividends in millions for such action. What by the way was the final tally on what the Widows and loved ones received money wise. You can see this fire cost millions and worst of all the deaths of some fine young men who by their ignorance of good training allowed themselves to be killed. Good training would have saved every life there that day of Sunday, June 30, 2013.
And of course I put Rick McKensie in the wrong place–he is the cowboy and Donut belongs there where I had his name. Also, 500 thousand spent on the memorial seems foolish to me. I think it would have been better spent on wild land fire fighting equipment, training, etc and the 320 acres that people went to the widows–I wonder why they do not donate it for a wild fire training area. Marsh and Steed failed their men, hands down no argument on that. But 500 thousand is not enough for training of wild land fire fighters.
What ever they spent on this fire and its cost ought to be doubled for equipment and training. Honest men like Wayne Niel, Gary and Bob, RTS and the likes put in charge of training and running the facility. Marsh and Steed have taught us that much.
Seems to me that everyone was just trying to cover their ass by saying they thought Marsh was heading north. Joy on I have talked to more than one person that said they knew at all times where the men were and these were from good sources that had to know what was going on and hearing radio traffic. They said it was just a confusing day–everyone seemed baffled–and you did see one guy even quit bossing in the middle of action. I don’t know how long the redactions will stand to cover up the mess and who had part of it.
It is good to see that Joseph Kosinski has decided to make a movie of the Yarnell Hill Wildfire Catastrophy. I am one of the two civilian survivors who were at the fire edge that Sunday, June 30, 2013. Joy Collura was the other survivor who also instigated our hike at 3:30 am that put us there on top of the Weaver Mountains to alert prospectors of the fire even before the GMHS team arrived. Joy took over 1500 still photos of the fire that day that were published of both the men and even the spot where they perished that morning before the area burned.
To the area on the Weaver mountain we have hiked many authors including Josh Eells of Rolling stones/Mens Journal, John Dougherty of Investigative Media, Norbert Hoeffler of Stern magazine, Fernanda Santos, Phoenix NY times Editor (just released book on Yarnell Fire-“The Fire Line”), Fire Historian Stephen Pyne, author John McClean, Brian Mackenhaupt of Atlantic, Navideth Forghandi Channel 15 reporter for ABC’ NBC’s Kevin Kennedy Channnel 12 commentator, Dr. Ted Putnam, long time smoke jumper, now fire death investigator of previous tragedy at Storm King that killed 14 and investigator of Mann Gulch that killed 13, Morgan Loew, Phoenix Channel 5 news host and commentator, Ered Matthews who produced a play “The Fence”, Zack Ashoor of Phoenix member of Arizona Respiratory Board, former GMHS fire fighter Phillip “Mando” Mandanto, ADOSH investigators, marathon runner Bruce Hanna and Marshall Krotenberg, smoke jumper and former CIA agent Charley Mosely and his friends Dr. Ted Putnam and smoke jumper Johnny Kirkley. That is just a few of the people we have hiked along the trail that wanted to see where the men hiked and worked that we observed that Sunday.
We have kept abreast of the events of the fire as have investigators and long time fire fighters and investigators who write on John Daugherty’s “Investigative Media”. Long time investigators and wild land fire fighters such as Gary Olsen (also finishing a book on Yarnell Hill Fire), Bob Powers retired Wild Land Fire Boss and Authority, Robert the Second, experienced and Boss on Wild Land Fires, Norb Szczurek, wild land firefighter, and others that contribute to that site give us their take on what went down on that fatal day of June 30, 2013 that took the lives of 19 men. I will not forget to mention the man “Wants To Know The Truth”, aka WTKTT, who is an expert on the Yarnell Hill Fire with phenomenal recall and knowledge of events related to the fire along with Marti Reed, investigator and uncanny ability to dissect photos and information about the fire.
Do not forget that more than 74 people have died out of the 645 population of Yarnell since the fire. Many of those deaths are also directly related to the fire as much as the deaths of the GMHS. Mark Danielson is believed to be a suicide that walked into the hills and disappeared after borrowing a neighbors gun soon after the fire. Elderly have died, and we know that the ammonium sulphate and nitrate agent orange solution killed fish by the thousands when it was accidentally dumped in rivers. Here it was dumped to the tune of 30,000 gallons, most in close proximity to residences and even on top of many so we believe the lung cell killing NH3 gas and other trade secret chemicals had and indirect effect of killing many of the local elderly people.
We hope this information is presented to Joseph to help get the real story of the Yarnell Hill Fire. My name is “Sonny” Tex Gilligan. I too lost a son, so know the effects on loved ones of such a tragic event. Joy Collura, my long time hiking pal has a photographic memory of events that day and would be a great help to the events of that day, including our talk with Eric Marsh and photographs and times we talked and argued even at the point they left the two track to go down and we did not. Her memory and photos have been invaluable in tracking the events of that day.
We had left a rock monument at the point we last passed the men on the two track and Joy had photographed them on their way up to the fire edge where we had just left and talked with Eric Marsh. I have left many tears there on the many times we have hiked people past that spot. It is a great thing that a movie would be made of the event–Something that Ered Matthews of Prescott, AZ had envisioned when he made his play “The Fence” and the many people that paid attendance–Ered donated all the funds toward helping the loved ones of the tragedy.
Kudos to Director Joseph Kosinski for arranging a story about the Yarnell Hill Wild Fire Tragic Event. We believe the truth will save many future fire fighter’s lives, resident homes and resident lives, wild life and wild land resources, and millions in tax payer dollars. We hope also, knowing already the destructive chemicals in the slurry dumps that have killed thousands of fish and aquatic life, a more thorough investigation will be made of the health effects that concoction has on human life.
Yes the Hays Ranch hike would have been very highly unlikely. If the GMHS had gone that way they would have been stumbling in the dark across that burnt area. Those stubs left by manzanita are like the ends of deer antlers–sharp and pointed. A fall on those things could easily puncture a lung or heart or pierce a hand and even a worn sole on a boot. You certainly want the daylight to maneuver through those since they were abundant everywhere in that area.
If you actually walk those mountains you find that a mile translates to more like thee and three to nine. The ups and downs in arroyos, going around boulders, and avoiding brush where you can translates to many more miles that it looks to be from a distance. After those men worked that hundred yards down the hill on a hot day they knew what it would be to do some miles in that country. But they also knew it was easy hiking once they descended the mountain onto that level area where the Sesame street trail extension was and near their Bus. Once that terrain was burned off it was an ideal downhill hike on relatively gentle slope back to Sesame Street. Why they chose to risk the dead zone is the big unanswered question.
Reply to Gary Olson post on February 1, 2016 at 12:04 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I would actually like to know Dudley’s background on the fire line.
>> I listened to and watched him give that presentation to the “troops”
>> in Utah and I know he sure sounds good and puts on a fine show.
>>
>> But did he ever cut any fire line?
Apparently some… but not much.
Couple of years working as a ‘seasonal firefighter’… then it was off to Washington.
From back in Chapter VIII ( 8 ) of this ongoing discussion…
** MIKE DUDLEY’S BIO AND BACKGROUND
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-chapter-viii/#comment-98821
On October 18 and 19, 2011, Dudley was one of the speakers at a conference held at Utah Stage University ( Logan, Utah ).
The TITLE of the conference was…
Restoring the West – 2011
Sustaining Forests, Woodlands, and Communities Through Biomass Use
At this conference… Dudley gave a 30 minute talk…
Agenda – Tuesday, October 18
USU Eccles Conference Center
8:40 to 9:10 am Biomass Utilization: A Tool for Forest Restoration,
By Mike Dudley, Director of State and Private Forestry, Regions One and Four,
USDA Forest Service, Ogden, Utah
The following PDF document summarized the conference and included some ‘biographies’ of all the speakers… including Dudley…
Direct link to the 2011 conference PDF document that contains this BIO/resume’ for Mike Dudley…
http://forestry.usu.edu/files/uploads/RTW2011Media/RTW%20Booklet_FINAL%20Proof.pdf
On page 5 of this PDF file…
———————————————————————————
Speaker Abstracts – In order of presentation, presenting author in italics
Biomass Utilization: A Tool for Forest Restoration
Mike Dudley,
Director State and Private Forestry,
USDA Forest Service,
Regions One and Four,
Intermountain / Northern Regions,
324 25th St., Ogden, UT 84401
Email: mdudley ( at ) fs.fed.us.
Mike began his Forest Service career as a seasonal firefighter on the Descanso Ranger District of the Cleveland National Forest, CA in 1977. Mike worked seasonally on various national forests in California before receiving his career conditional appointment on the Inyo National Forest, CA in 1980.
In 1981 he moved to the Willamette National Forest, Oregon and worked in various fire/fuel positions including District Fire Management Officer. In 1997 he moved to the National Office, Washington, DC and during his 4 years there filled a number of positions in aviation, planning, and ending as the Assistant Director of Fire Ecology including National Fire Plan Key Point 3 Coordinator (Hazardous Fuels) for the US Forest Service.
He moved to the Intermountain Regional Office as Director Fire, Aviation, Air Management in October, 2001.
In September 2009 he moved into his current position ( as of 2011 ) as Director State and Private Forestry for the Northern and Intermountain Regions of the US Forest Service. He recently completed a detail as Acting Director Northeast Area State and Private Forestry in Newtown Square, Pennsylvania.
EDUCATION…
Mike received a B.S. in Forest Management from Oregon State University in 1986.
—————————————————————————————–
Followup…
Mike Dudley’s ‘LinkedIN’ page then nails down exactly WHEN he was at Oregon State University getting his BS in Forest Management.
It was from 1983 to 1986.
Direct link to Mike Dudley’s PUBLIC ‘LinkedIN’ page…
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/mike-dudley/5/8b9/958
———————————————
Mike Dudley:
Occupation: Government Administration
Mike Dudley’s Employment History Overview:
As of 2001: Director; Fire, Aviation, Air Mgnt at US Forest Service
Mike Dudley’s Education
Oregon State University: 1983 – 1986
————————————————————————-
Thank you.
Actually I take this statement back…
>> Gary Olson asked…
>> But did he ever cut any fire line?
>>
>> WTKTT said…
>> Apparently some… but not much.
There is ‘evidence’ that he worked as just a ‘seasonal firefighter’ for a few years… but that is NOT proof positive he ever once had to ‘cut any line’.
He could have been a cook at the fire camp(s), for all we know there.
He could have finished his ‘Forestry Degree’ at Oregon State… taken the red-eye to Washington… and still not have known which end of a Pulaski is the one that goes on the ground.
WTKTT,
Well…I have given it some thought, and I am even more confused than usual. I started this “Dudley Project” with the idea that I could tell you what Dudley is, but I can’t. He is so far above any pay grade I ever thought, about much less dealt with in the USFS, that I don’t even know what he is for sure. I don’t even know if he works for a Regional Forester, although now I don’t think so, he might work directly for the Chief.
The highest my food chain went was the Regional Director of Aviation and Fire Management and that person was the very top of the fire food chain because the USFS has such a decentralized command structure that WO employees, no matter how high they are, are mostly just cheer leaders who interface with congressional aides, work on appropriations bills and testify in front of Congress about various issues pertaining to the management or lack thereof of our national forests. And that includes the Chief of the USFS.
But now I see that Dudley reached the top of the fire food chain by coming out of the WO in October of 2001, so he is obviously not planning on getting that job for his next promotion. Dudley isn’t even in the fire management food chain. He is some kind of Uber ‘Management Stooge.
So…here is my take on his participation (lead role) in the whole Yarnell Hill Fire Cover up. “They”, and you know who “they” are (and if you really do will you please tell me) were NOT fucking around with that particular project. “They” sent in a really heavy hitter to make sure things turned out just the way it did.
I don’t know what Dudley hopes to be next, but I think it has “Chief of the U.S. Forest Service” somewhere in the title. I am suitably impressed.
I said, “Dudley isn’t even in the fire management food chain. He is some kind of Uber Management Stooge.”
I have to retract that statement.
Dudley is NOT an Uber Management Stooge. He is the guy that tells the Uber Management Stooge what to do.
So…I guess he is Uber Management.
Gary we have a non FF carrier here based on FF retirement.
Age 55 Mandatory with 20 year minim.
1977 to 2007 30 years. to 2015 38 years.
He dose not have the fire fighter ladder to retire under FF retirement.
He jumped from a District FMO GS9 to Washington Office Very Strange unless you were a favored RO person.
He promoted in one of the largest FF retirement exits in Federal history. The favored few who were the yes men to management. That’s my take.
Yep, I agree. I think Dudley gave up the FF retirement when he took the leap to the WO, because I he had loftier goals and it looks like it has worked out for him.
In fact, I think what we have here is a bonafied SES blue flame that definitely had the stars line up for him AND he is really good at what he does. I am sorry I called him a shit sack, he is the guy who fills the shit sacks and gives them their marching orders.
My experience (which is pretty limited tracking guys who breathe rarefied air) tells me that after someone is a District Ranger or higher (usually higher) and then does a tour in the WO he comes back out as the Director of Aviation and Fire Management. He went to the WO as a lowly District FMO and came out as a Director? I think that is almost unheard of?
Dudley coordinates as equals with every State Forester in every state that the two regions he works in covers, which is a bunch. Like I said, Dudley is a heavy hitter, I am duly impressed.
So Gary, RTS, Bob Powers, whoever…….
Do you have any idea who sets up these Serious Accident Investigation Teams (yes, I know they have a new name now)? Who decides that someone like Mike Dudley should be placed in a position of authority on them?
Who, ultimately, set up the SAIT for the Yarnell Fire?
I know I’ve been AWOL here, but I’ve been reading. Just having a whole lot of other stressful things to take care of. And also thinking it’s not really my responsibility to carry this forward, all that much — as I’ve said periodically, it’s the job of wildland firefighters to do that, as it’s their lives that are on the line in this.
But as a citizen I still do care.
Namaste.
Marti,
It’s late so here is the online link for the USFS SAIT, so you’ll have to research it yourself. It’s a start ….
The Investigation Team selection and Composition of the Investigation Team sections start on page 3. The Human Factors Accident and Incident Analysis starts on page 34.
And you now that those are merely guidelines subject to all kinds of machinations by the powers that be and what ‘they’ want their forgone conclusions to be.
https://fs.usda.gov/FSI_Documents/pdf05672806dpi300.pdf
Ultimately I think it would be the Chief of the Forest Service but from a practical standpoint, it was probably his inner circle of advisers, his top staff, the Yarnell Hill Fire was part of several formal discussions and on the calendar for the Executive Management Team Meetings, it was kicked around the table of few times, various people threw out various suggestions and somebody recommended Dudley and the Chief or his acting nodded either their acquiescence or approval. That’s how all of these decisions are made, I have sat in on a bunch of them, not as a decision maker, but as a staff adviser or subject matter expert to present options to the management team.
Now that I know more about Dudley, I don’t think there was much of a discussion about who to send. I think he earned a reputation as a go-to-guy, trouble shooter, Mr. Fix-it, and if not a problem solver, someone who could make the problem go away.
And that is what he did, he is a smooth operator. Mr. Dudley is very good at what he does.
As a matter of fact Marti, I have argued on this thread several times over the past two years that the Yarnell Hill Fire was the worst disaster in the history of wildland firefighting because i exclude the Idaho Fires of 1910 for lots of reason..
Those that say it was the worst loss of life since 911 don’t know what they are talking about. And in any case, it was without a doubt the worst disaster involving a hotshot crew…period.
And even though it was not a USFS crew, or a USFS fire, the phone lines between Phoenix, Albuquerque, Boise and Washington DC would have been burning up Sunday afternoon and evening. NOBODY would have wanted their boss to here about that event on the news first.
And since the crew was killed on Sunday afternoon, that fire and the SAIT would have been the first and maybe the only thing discussed at every management team meeting the first thing on Monday morning in the nation and it sure would have been the first thing the Chief wanted to hear about first thing on Monday morning.
The Chief of the USFS would have already been on the phone half the night with his top advisers.
And I can promise you one thing, whatever you and I may think of Mike Dudley and how this had been handled since then, I can assure there would not have been a dry eye in that big conference room next to the Chief’s Office. The Chief of the U.S. Forest Service and his team would have been just as devastated as the rest of us were.
And then they would have gotten down to business and had Mike Dudley on a conference call during the management team meeting on Monday morning and the wheels for everything that has happened since were set in motion by 10:00 am Eastern Time.
And the rest is wildland firefighting history as I like to say.
I believe the first request goes thru Boise NIFC.
They have a list of team members and from there it is checked back to Washington Office and then back down the chain to the requesting agency much like Fire orders. The team requests what they need to handle the investigation and descends on the location.
All is paid by the Fire I remember something about 50 people were assigned to the full investigation.
Well…whatever else Mr. Dudley is, no can say he is not a product (creature?) of the Washington Office, and that explains everything to me.
National Fire Plan Key Point 3 Coordinator? I can’t even understand his former title, much less the man who held the position.
OK…as long as we are killing time waiting for more information to appear I am going to opine on a couple of more subjects.
1. I went to see “13 Hours” last week before I left for the dunes and as I left the theater, I experienced a moment of clarity. It WAS a national tragedy that two security contractors (Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty) were killed defending the CIA annex. I had thought prior to the movie they were killed trying to rescue the U.S. Ambassador (Chris Stevens) and a computer technician .(Sean Smith) from the U.S. Consulate which was not correct. They were killed later when the Islamic Terrorists attacked the CIA annex.
So anyway…there has been unlimited and never ending investigations at the Congressional level and at every other level since that terrible event occurred. But it was two heroes who died who were security contractors protecting a CIA annex surrounded by the enemies of America in the middle of a war zone and whose tools of the trade were Squad Automatic Weapons and grenade launchers.
And they were being paid accordingly because it was so dangerous. I think those contractors get somewhere north of $150,000 a year plus expenses and other benefits like trips home or to vacation spots. I have known several retired BLM agents and others who have gone to do that work. I am pretty happy with my head where it is currently at, so I never pursued those job opportunities.
So…I couldn’t help but compare the deaths of the two American Heroes who were killed in Benghazi with the 19 American Heroes who were killed on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Where are our Congressional Hearings? WTF…Over?
That is why I am so disappointed that so many of the families squandered their political capital and their bully pulpit filing worthless lawsuits that did not have any chance of success except for nuisance settlements when they had already received millions of dollars in addition to the death benefits. They could have made a difference in wildland firefighting safety for the future.
2. And that is why I think the (at least three) wildland firefighting foundations are such a joke. Don’t spend your time and waste money “spreading the better” and expressing condolences on Facebook when more wildland firefighters are killed…go raise hell with your nationally elected officials.
Get somebody like Jon Stewart to champion the cause, start a letter writing campaign…do something! Jon Stewart did that primarily for fire fighters. Everybody loves firefighters! Firefighters run towards the black smoke while everyone else is running away.
Just my opinions.
RTS
Could you retell the story about being up on the ridge (near or at the lunch/resting spot) with Frisby and other WFF and Frisby pointing off to the north and saying that is where he thought Marsh was talking about moving the GMH crew soon before their deaths?
Or Maybe WTK could pull the original comment made by you long ago.
You have to go WAY BACK to November of 2013 for that ‘thread’ that was started by ‘Robert The Second’ ( RTS ).
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-324710
WARNING…THIS POST GOES DOWN SEVERAL RABBIT TRAILS
Part 1
Well…I just got back from riding my quad like I stole it down in the Oregon Dunes and I had a very nice time, thank you for asking. Although it was a little cold and rainy but then again, this is the Great Pacific Northwest!
It is cold outside today and I am bored so I am going to clean some miscellaneous thoughts out of my old noggin, in addition to the fact that I am going to beat on one of my favorite drums again just because I can…training or the lack thereof as a contributing factor in the deaths of the GMIHC. And of course these are just my personal opinions from my experience in my day, your experiences and how it is done today may be different.
1. WTKTT – No…a rental vehicle never becomes a POV even if it is taken home. Only a privately owned vehicle can be a POV, as in privately owned by the employee not a car rental agency. If a rented vehicle is taken home, it becomes a rental that was driven home, not a POV. This one is really old.
2. WTKTT – Have you considered the possibility that one reason the board may not be publishing the minutes of their meetings (especially now) is because things are not going well for them? And might mean…just maybe there is an ongoing internal power struggle within the board about some of the decisions they have made or are trying to make?
Maybe their fund-raising is not going well because well…almost everyone except the families and us has moved on? The Yarnell Hill Fire is old news and after all, new tragedies have occurred since then. And since the board has a built in sunset clause, well then I would imagine that any decision they made can be unmade by what by then will be officials who are appointed by elected officials and they may care more about what the public thinks then the Marsh – Pfingston – Widows Cabal does, maybe?
I know I am not going to climb that steep mountain to gaze down onto the grave sites until I see the Governor and all of the assholes who are working for him on this project plus all of the families do first. If they get to go in on a VIP lane…than so do I. After all…I am now self identify as a Democratic Socialist because of the great income inequality in this country and because some people think they are entitled to more just because of who they think they are.
3. Sonny and others – The primary reason “they” will never follow your suggestion and make their new park into a training ground, (actually there are so many primary reasons that I can’t name them all in this format) is because they don’t have a training ground anywhere.
Even in the heyday of wildland firefighting when the world was officially ruled by the USFS instead of how it is today where they just run everything from behind the scenes, they didn’t do the kind of training you are envisioning. It was all done in place, wherever the employees happened to be by whoever happened to be available. This excludes the advanced and highly specialized training that a select few get to attend at the National Advanced Resource Technology Center at Marana, Arizona and few other central locations like maybe at the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho.
But for the masses…all training is hit or miss and catch-as-catch-can from canned and very general lesson plans. And that was in the GOOD OLE DAYS before the vast migration to on-line impersonal training done in modules in front of a computer screen to save money. Training is something land management agencies do not like to spend money on and it is always the first thing to go when budgets are cut and the last thing to come back when budgets are good.
And budgets have never good since our war of choice with our invasion under false pretenses of the sovereign nation of Iraq which apparently needed a genocidal madman in charge in order to keep a lid on all of the ethnic, tribal, sectarian and religious animosity and deep rooted homicidal hatred that goes back thousands of years. And therefore budgets probably never will be good again, at least during my lifetime. There is no equivalent of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center or the academy where it was recently discovered all of the widespread cheating was going on for the California Division of Forestry (CDF) in Sacramento.
.
Now the last time I brought this up, Bob disagreed with me and said he thought the USFS has always done a very good job of training its fire people, and I’m sure where Bob was that was true. But that is exactly what I mean, there is no, and never has been any standardization of fire training for entry and lower level federal wildland firefighters and most state and local agencies are going to even be worse since they follow the USFS lead with far less money except for the CDF because they are the exception to every rule.
Training is always hit or miss and catch-as-catch-can which means it can be good, bad and ugly depending where you are and what year it is. That is why Eric Marsh’s privatization of wildland firefighting training was successful; the Arizona Fire Academy is filling a void just like the Colorado Wildland Fire & Incident Management Academy has been for decades.
So…they aren’t going to start doing something now they have never done before and that is to do training the RIGHT way, with set lesson plans and reliable proven and established instructors instead of whoever just happens to be available and nearby so it won’t cost much if anything to have them travel to where the spliced together happenstance training is being put together.
This brings me to one of my favorite bones to chew on, I would still like to know if the GMIHC, which included Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed had ever received any training whatsoever on the “How Big is Big Enough Concept” in regards to fire shelter deployment sites selection and the fact that IF the site you are thinking about deploying in is NOT SURVIABLE you must run, because then you will at least die on your feet moving away from the flames instead of just laying down while you are waiting to start coughing up your burning lung tissue.
I would also like to know if they ever trained the GMIHC on this concept or did they just give them the same ole song and dance that the fire shelter is your friend and can provide a safe and secure environment in case you are about to be burned over, just like the bullshit training I got when they introduced those turkey roasting bags and told us we should climb inside them to die. The one big difference is that we didn’t believe them so we made sure we were never in a position to even think about doing something so crazy. But we all know that is you repeat a lie often enough and with enough conviction, it will pass for the truth sooner or later.
And I would still like to know WHO taught hour hapless hero that the wildland firefighting rules are hillbilly. C’mon, there are dozens of former GMIHC out there who know the answers to these two simple questions.
Part 2
And now for a pet peeve of mine and I real journey down a rabbit trail if you are interested to know exactly who and what Mike Dudley is or at least my take on people like Mike Dudley since I don’t actually know anything about him as a person.
And I am going to give just my opinion and just for the USFS since that is the only agency I was familiar with regarding how the system worked at least at one time. I think it is probably the same now since the USFS changes about as quickly as molasses runs down a snow packed ski slope.
There are two separate and distinct career paths in the USFS. One is made up of “professionals” and the other is made of “technicians” who are in the GS-462 Forestry Technician Series. To give you the Readers Digest version, we always used to say that the USFS is run by professionals…for professionals.
The highest GS rating on the pay scale a Forestry Tech is able to attain is a GS-12 (it might be a GS-13 now?) and that went to just one person, the Regional Coordinator. That is the person for example, who runs the Southwest Coordination Center in Albuquerque, New Mexico, for the Southwest Region (R-3) Arizona and New Mexico and there is a corresponding position in all of the other eight regions. That is the very top of the pay scale a Forestry Tech can attain.
To my knowledge, there wasn’t a similar position at the Washington Office level, so becoming one of the nine regional coordinators was as far and as high as a tech could go. And as I said in a previous comment, Forestry Technicians are the heart, soul, backbone, limbs, and major organs of the wildland firefighting world, the few professionals who are in that world think they are the head and the brains but they are really just the assholes of the body, hence Mr. Mike Dudley…bought and paid for management stooge.
A typical technician can get to the top by becoming an entry level wildland firefighter, then a hotshot, hotshot crew boss, Assistant District Fire Management Officer or Assistant Forest Dispatcher and then either a District Fire Management Officer or a Forest Dispatcher (with a collateral job as an Interagency Fire Center Coordinator thrown in) and then to work a “desk” (crew, aircraft, overhead) at a Regional Coordinating Center or at the National Interagency Coordinating Center until the stars line up and the right person is in exactly the right place at exactly the right time and you might get to be one of the Nine Chosen but your odds aren’t very good. Those poor odds and the fact that I had an aversion to full time office work drove me to abandon my career in wildland firefighting career at a young age, especially since it was an accidental career anyway.
I had become a hotshot in the first place because they (everyone) said they were the best of the best and that concept really intrigued me, we made a lot of money (relatively) in a short period of time (a fire season) to pay for college and the babes really liked melting into our manly arms on Saturday night at the Mormon Lake Lodge bar, IF we told them we were smokejumpers because neither they nor anyone else knew or cared what a hotshot was.
So…how does someone like Mike Dudley get to be the nominal head but certified asshole of a Regional Office, the MF-In-Charge of all fire operations within a geographic region called a Regional Office and in Mr. Dudley’s case the Director, Region 4 – Intermountain Regional Office, State & Private Forestry which takes in Southern Idaho, Nevada, Utah and Western Wyoming. (Bob – is this the same position I have always heard called the Regional Director of Aviation & Fire Management or is there another director above Dudley and he just has State and Private Forestry under him or does he have the whole nine yards, I am confused as usual?).
Well…like I said, I don’t know how Mr. Dudley did it, but I know how it is typically done. Young Dudley gets a job fighting wildfire because he is majoring in forestry at one of the western universities that has a highly respected forestry program…like my alma mater for example, Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff, Arizona. Young Dudley works as a Forestry Technician through college and maybe for even a couple of years after college while he waits to be hired on a junior forester somewhere in the country or just because he likes the money and the adrenaline dumps.
But at some point…like he gets married, he has to get serious about his career and that is when he makes the leap to be a junior forester as a entry level professional and puts his days as a Forestry Technician in the rear view mirror and starts selling his soul in increasing installments to gain promotions and advancement.
But because he has a background in fire and he liked it, he keeps enhancing his fire credentials as he climbs the ladder as a PROFESSIONAL as a forester, or in one of the many professional series of one of the other less favored professional who typically don’t get very far, very often (the USFS is or was always about getting out the cut…as in trees, so timber and forestry is king), like Range Conservationists…Range Cons who got degrees in Animal Husbandry or something other than Forestry, those who count cows and measure forage for cattle rather than mark trees to be cut down.
At some point Mr. Dudley had proven himself sufficiently as a go-along-guy or gal and they get to be a District Ranger. Then maybe they become a Deputy Forest Supervisor and do a couple of tours at the Regional Office and the Washington Office as one of the little bureaucrats who toil day after day doing whatever those people do for a living.
But…he not only kept up his fire credentials during this time and he made a name for himself working in increasingly more important positions on fire teams so he develops a reputation as not only a good forester who could get out the cut AND play ball while doing what had to be done (if you know what I mean) as he continues to sell whatever is left of his soul for the next promotion up the ladder, he also has street creds in fire management.
So the bottom line is this…the Mike Dudley’s of this world really have very little to do with the wildland firefighting culture, they are really something very different. They are first and foremost MANAGERS who are in the professional series and they don’t have any soul (or honor) left by the time they get to where Old Dudley is now.
And they will do or say anything to keep what they have worked their entire adult lives to attain, and the devil take the hindmost. So whatever you do…don’t think of them as wildland firefighters who care about doing the right thing. They only care about their careers; they are really not part of the wildland firefighting family or community. To find someone who really cares about wildland firefighters, the first thing to do is to ask them if they are a technician or a professional.
And yes, I do realize that I am being pretty hard to nail down and probably seem like a flip flopper on this whole following the rules thing…but it is hard to explain and it is very nuanced.
I can tell you however, that even within our hyper hotshot program on steroids (but as I have said, maybe all hotshot crews are the same) I first learned all of the rules and then later I taught all of the rules and our official postilion was that we followed all of the rules all of the time. We also had them posted on the inside of our hardhats just so we could review them. We memorized them and recited them on command.
It is only later, under special circumstances, when you know you are pushing the envelope and might be out of bounds to accomplish a particularly demanding assignment when some level of risk by bending and maybe even breaking some of the rules to get the job done just as long as you first know the rules inside and out and know just where and how far out of bounds you might be at any given time with heads up and a backup plan and a backup plan to that backup plan.
But no, we certainly never thought or said any of the rules were hillbilly or we were too smart for them and we never said ahead of time, “OK, now we are going to break the rules because they are bullshit!”
It was more like you get on a slippery slope and before you know it, and if you are not really paying attention, it is easy to slip over the line. And people in my day who did that and got away with it were rewarded and respected for following one the rules in particular…”Fight fire AGGRESSIVELY but provide for safety first.”
And of course whenever I quote this one, I always put the emphasis on the key word there for us….AGGRESSIVELY as opposed to putting the emphasis on SAFETY FIRST, which is what the rule is really all about.
Like I said, it’s hard to explain, but easy to slip into and it’s always very dangerous and should not be done…ever.
Dammmmmm—Dudley State and Private Forestry—-Works for the Regional Fire management officer coordinates between Federal and State and Private
Yes a Professional position may or may not have come out of Pire positions
But slipped into them thru the back door. and so it goes.
oh buy the way now you have to have a bachelors degree to be a Forest FMO GS-12 0r 13, Tech’s may still be able to slip into a GS 11 if they are really lucky.
All Superintendents are GS 9 now
That was true everywhere I worked or knew of in R3. You not only had to have a degree to be the Forest FMO, you had to be a former District Ranger which meant you most likely had to have a forestry degree..
And everything I say is “generally speaking”, there are some good professionals out there, I worked for one on the Santa Fe by the name of Ray Page who was the Forest FMO when I was the Forest Dispatcher. He stepped in and took care of me by making me the Forest Dispatcher when my District Ranger was going to terminate me because of my smoke inhalation problem couldn’t be managed any longer.
I am just trying to explain why and how somebody who is in wildland fire management could do the things that Dudley has done. You have to assume a professional is a sell out and then work from that assumption and maybe they are a good person, but don’t count on it at Dudley’s level or they wouldn’t be at Dudley’s level.
Correction – Technically speaking a junior forester marks the trees that are to be left as “leave trees” so by not marking them, they get cut down. Orlando tried to help me become a tree marker because he was pretty good at it when our District Ranger wanted to shit can me but I couldn’t the hang of it. All of those fucking trees looked alike to me. I wanted to see all of them cut down. The only good tree was on the back of a logging truck…that’s the old U.S. Forest Service Way.
And on a side note, you can have a PHD. but if you are in the Forestry Technician Series you are still thought of as a knuckle dragger by the “Professionals.” I was really happy to leave that caste system. You have to be really lucky and really patient to make it as a Forestry Tech.
Oh…and that means Dudley will definitely do whatever he has to do to become the Regional Director of Aviation and Fire Management for his next job. And he will get there, he did a good job on the Yarnell Hill Fire cover up.
In 1998, Mike Dudley was already working at the USFS Washington Office. His title ( then ) was ‘Aviation Management Specialist’.
That’s when he wrote the following ‘paper’…
FIFTY YEARS OF HELICOPTER FIREFIGHTING
By Michael Dudley and Gregory S. Greenhoe
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/fmn58-4.pdf
On PDF page 6…
Author(s)…
———————————————–
Mike Dudley is an aviation management
specialist for the USDA Forest Service,
Washington Office, Washington, DC;
———————————————–
The next year ( 1999 )… he wrote this article…
PLANNING NATIONAL SHARED FORCES FOR
THE 21ST CENTURY
By Michael Dudley
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/fmn59-1.pdf
Exactly – Dudley made his bones writing white papers in the WO instead of on the fire line.
Dudley does not have the heart and soul of a wildland firefighter and that is not where his loyalties lie.
Dudley does have the black heart and soul of a manager and that is where his loyalties lie.
Mike Dudley is just being who he is while he is being loyal to his tribe…other managers. He is what he is.
In all fairness to Mike Dudley, he would make a hell of a politician. I could bet he would win at running for Govenor or any related Political Office. If you listen to his talks he rivals any of the gang of Reps or Dems on their debate runs.
In all fairness to Mike Dudley, he would make a hell of a politician. I could bet he would win at running for Governor or any related Political Office. If you listen to his talks he rivals any of the gang of Reps or Dems on their debate runs.
How did that post twice. Maybe double fairness then.
Yes, I said they have some street creds as a widland firefighter but I am sure that is not always true or their creds are highly exaggerated.
I am confident that for those who have NO creds as a wildland firefighter will still get into Dudley’s job IF they can write good white papers, sell a line of bullshit, be politically correct all of the time and do whatever they are told to do regardless of who it hurts,
So yes…I bet a lot of them can and do come in through the back door without any real wildland firefighting credentials.
I would actually like to know Dudley’s background on the fire line. I listened to and watched him give that presentation to the “troops” in Utah and I know he sure sounds good and puts on a fine show.
But did he ever cut any fire line?
Gary this fire fighting business reminds me of the military. We respected those that had fought wars before us. But we suspected the 90 day wonders (those that got their rank by college degree). I would listen to a sergeant that had been there on the front lines and worry about a 2nd lieutenant that had gotten that rank with no experience. I think the same thing must go on in the wild land fighting ranks from what you are telling us.
Yes, that is exactly what it is like. And I was going to use a military analogy to describe what I called the Chosen Nine except I don’t really know the ranks very well. I think they would be like Command Sergeant Majors in the military with there not be an actual position of Sergeant Major because there is no very top of the technician ranks.
Anyway, there aren’t very many of them and I didn’t think I could make it, plus I did start climbing out of my skin if I was in an office or cubicle too long. And the highest tech jobs are all office work, and even that is very political and requires a smooth operator, but I think all of them still have the heart and souls of wildland firefighters…I hope..
Actually…I just remembered the name for it. Orlando tried to teach me how to become a “timber cruiser” because he had done a lot of that in his younger days and he was pretty good at it.
They call it “cruising” although I never thought of it that way. I just thought of it as stumbling around out in the middle of the forest trying to calculate the diameter at breast height (dbh, and whose breast anyway) while trying to guestimate just how tall those fuckers were while looking through a prism and using a compass to mark the boundaries of the sale.
Like I said, I just couldn’t get the hang of it.
Gary,
Good post on the USFS basics.
You posted: “And they will do or say anything to keep what they have worked their entire adult lives to attain, and the devil take the hindmost. So whatever you do…don’t think of them as wildland firefighters who care about doing the right thing. They only care about their careers; they are really not part of the wildland firefighting family or community. To find someone who really cares about wildland firefighters, the first thing to do is to ask them if they are a technician or a professional.”
Those people GENERALLY get into and remain in those positions because they are YES MEN, BROWN-NOSERS, KISS ASSES, and the like. They will “go along to get along” and do or say what they are told, when they are told.
When a FS professional employee tells you they work(ed) in the Washington Office (WO), you must ask them if (1) they went there VOLUNTARILY or (2) if they were TRANSFERRED there by higher management.
MANY if not most of the WO professional employees fit into category (2), they were TRANSFERRED to the WO because of some f**k up at their prior home unit. These professionals are also transferred AND PROMOTED to other Regions, other positions, etc. if they f**k up somewhere. I call them Disciplinary Promotions, and they are very similar to the Communist Reeducation Camps where they are ‘socially and politically rehabilitated.’ The same applies to the professionals transferred to the WO.
http://www.pwf.cz/archivy/texts/articles/china-re-education-camps_2198.html
Technicians are never given ‘Disciplinary Promotions’ and are demoted, terminated or ‘fired’ instead.
And regarding the Middle Eastern leadership debacle you posted: they needed someone “… in charge in order to keep a lid on all of the ethnic, tribal, sectarian and religious animosity and deep rooted homicidal hatred that goes back thousands of years.”
T.E. Lawrence, also known as Lawrence of Arabia, was a British soldier serving as a Liaison Officer with the rebel forces during the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Turks between 1916 and 1918. Based on the book, he was the only one able to unify these ethnic factions against a common enemy – the Ottoman Turks . Once the battles and warfare waned, then these tribal factions went back to fighting and killing each other. He wrote a book titled ‘The Seven Pillars of Wisdom” and it is quite revealing.
One can always resort to the trusty Wikipedia route and GTS “The Seven Pillars of Wisdom” and/or “TE Lawrence” for further edification.
I remembered that those ‘reeducated’ ones, enlightened by the WO power mongers were often returned to field offices at various levels. In other words, the WO reassignments were not always permanent in nature.
The WO wanted these enlightened ones to lead the way for others to dutifully follow.
This was also a scare tactic because other employees, seeing their coworkers wisked away and/or disciplined made sure to ‘toe the line’ and to what they were told when they were told.
Yes, we called it being promoted into the “Hall of Shame” in either the regional for Washington Office. And yes, they usually did not stay there, after a period of time they were considered to be rehabilitated and came back out to do more damage. Just like it is really hard to get doctors to give up other doctors or get cops to give up other cops, it was impossible to get USFS professionals to give up each other.
So the bottom line is this…Mike Dudley is what I would call a shit sack, who will do and say whatever he is supposed to say to further the goals of management. And they justify their behavior because they think they are the smartest people in the room and know what is best for the masses. You, me, and everyone except for them.
Building a career as a Forestry Technician and is not for the weak for faint of heart. I took a long hard look at it, calculated the odds and bailed out because I didn’t think I could make it for the long haul.
Ye Olde One:
As a 16 year upwardly immobile forestry technician (with degrees in business & accredited forest management degree from a major university), I approve of this message….
An aversion to selling my soul and a general nausea response to ass-kissing has made me what I am today, what I was yesterday, and what I’ll likely be tomorrow. But, in addition to a chip on my shoulder that somewhat decreases in size as the years go by, I have my honor AND a love of what I do.
Thanks for your posts, you magnificent bastard. Love it, man! I’d be willing to bet you gave more than one supervisor a furrowed brow over the years…
Woodsman
Ye Olde One:
Yep. One of the reasons I may be here is because I need to know if I need to change my perception of what a hotshot crew is. You see, if I’m on a fire somewhere and I need to know just what the hell is going on…I will summarily walk past every base camp flunky danish eating vest wearing slick lookin’ yahoo out there……..march straight up to the nearest HOTSHOT crew boss (or any member for that matter) and find out what I need to know – AND IT CAN BE TRUSTED AS GOLD! Period,,,end of story.
Now, one of the things I need to find out for myself is this still the case or not? Do I need to start vetting hs crews now? I’ve worked along side a lot of shot crews, and they have all been damn good. Damn good.
Man, don’t get me cranked back up on the ‘death bags’…I can just sense the new improved XXL models coming out at any time now.
Woodsman
My Opinion Woodsman
The knuckle draggers are still coming up thru the ranks of the Technicians.
Most if not all Professionals have no stomach for the down and dirty hard work and many many days away from home and family.
They are stacking up in the Tech Ranks because they are hitting the Collage professional wall. IC’s and Others are coming out of the Professional Collage ranks, The old and well trained FMO,s and Forest FMO’s that lived breathed fire are becoming a Thing of the past.
Well…if the Forestry Techs I heard (Fuck it…let’s go for it) and saw talking on some of those videos are an example of what is still out there today, Frisby, Brown, and the three Amigo’s from the Prescott (I still haven’t memorized all of their names, Clawson, et al.) plus YOU (Woodsman) with your attitude, there is still some hope for the wildland firefighters who will be coming on the fire line tomorrow.
Reply to Woodsman post on February 1, 2016 at 3:46 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> One of the reasons I may be here is because I need to know
>> if I need to change my perception of what a hotshot crew is.
>> You see, if I’m on a fire somewhere and I need to know just
>> what the hell is going on…I will summarily walk past every
>> base camp flunky danish eating vest wearing slick lookin’
>> yahoo out there……..march straight up to the nearest
>> HOTSHOT crew boss (or any member for that matter) and
>> find out what I need to know – AND IT CAN BE
>> TRUSTED AS GOLD! Period,,,end of story.
>>
>> Now, one of the things I need to find out for myself is this
>> still the case or not? Do I need to start vetting hs crews now?
In the wake of this historic tragedy involving a Type 1 Hotshot crew… I think the ‘new normal’ is more along the lines of…
“TRUST… but VERIFY”.
Always a good thing to do.
The life you save may be your own.
Gary your are right about the park not being used as a training area. Joy and I have taken enough investigators, wild land fire fighters, relatives, friends, and concerned citizens to the legal area so that we understand the impact the trip has on people., It is not only a sad moment but the actual hike leaves one with an indelible mark on the mind concerning respect for safety rules that wild land fire fighters have developed over their many years fighting these things. People get an understanding there of how a fire can suddenly reverse directions and how swiftly that fire can catch you especially if it is only a few miles away.
It is said that the fire had travelled at ll miles per hour once it reversed. I can tell you it was much faster coming up that canyon due to chimney effect. However at 11mph the fire is moving at a rate of 5.45 minutes per mile. The fire was between a mile and 2 miles from the two track. At two miles they would have had only 11 minutes to reach the ranch if that fire had made an immediate reversal. Now if you drop down from the two track, are relatively fit as I was and marathon runner Bret Steuter, OSHA investigator, who timed himself at 22 minutes when all brush was burned away and without any hinderance such as heavy pack, chain saw, hot weather and hot clothing, then you can see those men had to have taken much more time. Both Joy and Bret’s companion had fallen on the way down with Bruce sustaining a serious injury and they timed in at 33 minutes, a full ten minutes later. Out of 19 men under more adverse conditions you have to know that several had fallen as well and their injuries unknown. As I said before that is a treacherous slope to maneuver. But even at the point they deployed there is approximately 600 more yards and that was in some of the densest brush you can find on the east side of the weavers. When Willis stated that ordinary people can’t get through that but the GMHS types can due to their training I have to say that is a crock. I have taken the best up to areas where that thick brush and they did not want to even attempt to take that brush on unless they absolutely had to. It was too difficult even for seasoned fighters–yet I did go though a hundred feet or so with one young Josh Eels who wrote the article in Rolling Stones. He got a good appreciation of how difficult it is to get through that.
Yet consider that it looked like the moon surface going down when we descended from the two track. Those men looked depleted coming up in the morning–except the leaders, especially Marsh who went about like a jack rabbit even in the steep boulders. Add their accouterments and their hot clothing on a 106 June 30 afternoon, various falls that had to have happened, that steep terrain and hope that their flimsy fire retardant blankets would work and you had a no win situation that no man who has had wild land fire fighting experience said they would do. Each man who knows the rules of fire fighting and been to the two track said it was against all rules and a total negative to attempt what they did
You can see how quickly men can get killed in doing what the GMHS attempted to do. Why it is vitally important those men do more than watch videos for training in wild land fire fighting situations.
I do recommend the hike from the elephant (much hesitation on the recommendation). Joy says that is the exact area she and Snake man relocated hundreds of rattle snakes over a ten year period. Snake man was some sort of a nut about rattlers and would go with Joy and capture snakes up and down roads and across the desert. He always kept several running loose in his house and got excited every time he saw a new snake as if it were the first time he ever saw one. He once released many in Joys back yard–but then he is not the only one that liked rattlers. There is a kid I knew named Tommy Moore whose dad runs the Moore trading post out of Alamogordo. He gets in a sleeping bag with them every year at the rattle snake round up and has been bitten more than once, but still does the feat. (Snake man is dead from cancer–Joy and I visited his ash box kept in the Prescott Veterans Cemetary, coincidentally a few feet from my own father Henry’s grave. )
I think Tommy Moore would make a hell of a GMHS crew member. Maybe Willis and Dudley ought to look him up.
Myself and cowboy Rick Mckinsey will tell you–don’t get caught down in that manzanita brush with a wild fire anywhere near.
Not true on what sonny said. Local resident who I hiked with asked me a favor to hike snakeman so they can have a break from his coming over and I said not interested than on hike jerry and Frankie said Frankie wanted to hike with me and I said certain people I need more than one so I hiked with Frankie n Snakeman from March 2009-June 2009 and that was enough for me. Yes before Snakeman died he admitted to putting three rattlers in my backyard because I would not hike anymore with him but I didn’t know until long time after and it was not a ten yr period as Sonny made up never said but Snakeman since 1960s had been relocating rattlers and any snake including pythons out there since the 60s and that area is rattlesnake hill and also I only been present to release his snakes not mine a total of nine times and yes I was witness to him releasing them as I tried to overcome my fears. So Sonny was incorrect in his speaking on my knowing Snakeman especially ten years… Only was a few months in 2009
Just guessing here, but I think it’s safe to say that this recent (2014) safety acronym is related to and because of the Yarnell Hill Fire fatalities, the basis on this reporting tool.
It was in the Wildfire AZ website on June 3, 2014, and it posted: “The Operations Subcommittee has worked with AZSF to create the following document to improve personnel accountability. LCANS stands for Location, Conditions, Actions, Needs and Safety Zone.”
“It will take some time to implement and train to these protocols. You should have received this information from your District Forester.”
http://www.wildfireaz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/LCANS-Document-version-2.pdf
LCANS
“In order to provide a reporting mechanism for changes in critical items related to firefighter
safety a common reporting tool was developed. To improve standardization of how
information is relayed by firefighters operating on an incident and to improve firefighter safety, a variation of the PCAN report commonly used by structure firefighters has been adapted for wildland
firefighting. This tool is a short five letter acronym designed to facilitate the use of a common order model when reporting changes to the key elements it addresses. In order to differentiate between the two, the acronym LCANS (Location, Conditions, Actions, Needs, Closest Safety Zone) has been adopted. Order models such as this are used commonly to standardize communication and ensure benchmarks are met.”
The basic WFF Rules (Ten Standard FF Orders, 18 Watch Out Situations, and LCES) had been working just fine until the GMHS stood them on their heads and defied logic with what they did, resulting in their preventable deaths.
Look who the authors are…
Byron Kimball and Todd Abel (shock face)
Coincidence??????
Yes, I saw that.
And look at the example they use as a mock discussion – Division Alpha
**
** YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD
**
** WHERE IS THE DECEMBER 31, 2015 REPORT REQUIRED BY LAW?
When the Arizona State Legislature passed Karen Fann’s “House Bill 2634” establishing the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’, and giving them half-a-million dollars of taxpayer money to spend… one of the only codified REQUIREMENTS for that Board was the following…
** REPORT REQUIRED BY LAW…
————————————————————-
Arizona LAW: Title 41-519.01. Yarnell Hill memorial site board; members; duties; report
8. Submit a report on the progress of the memorial to the governor, the president of the senate and the speaker of the house of representatives on or before December 31, 2015 and provide a copy of this report to the secretary of state.
————————————————————–
That December 31, 2015 ‘deadline’ has come and gone… and I can find NO EVIDENCE that this ‘report’ was ever completed and/or delivered to who it was supposed to be delivered to, as REQUIRED by the LAW that was passed.
** TRACKBILL – SHOWS FULL HISTORY OF ARIZONA HB2624…
The following link shows the full Legilsative History for Karen Fann’s HB2624, includnig the original texts, the ammendments she added, and the REQUIREMENT for the December 31, 2015 REPORT…
https://trackbill.com/bill/az-hb2624-yarnell-hill-memorial-appropriation/659522/
If they actually did complete this REPORT that was required by LAW… I wonder why they have not posted a copy of it on their own website?
Could it be that they really are trying to avoid any PUBLIC controversy over ( or even knowledge of? ) this decision that a subset of the Board has made to NOT allow full PUBLIC access to all parts of this new Arizona State Park?
A decision which was AGAINST the wishes of both the current Arizona State Forester ( Jeff
Whitney ) and the former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( Darrell Willis )?
Or at least trying as hard as they can to POSTPONE any PUBLIC ‘discussion’ about it
until AFTER the (supposed) upcoming ‘dedication’ of the new State Park on June 30, 2016?
The following ( ongoing ) fact might also support that ‘agenda’…
** STILL NO MINUTES FOR OCTOBER 23, 2015 MEETING
As of today ( January 27, 2016 ), the PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board remains in violation of Arizona Open Meetings LAWS and has still not posted the minutes of their last known PUBLIC meeting, 3 months ago, on October 23, 2015.
Those ‘minutes’ are REQUIRED to be posted PUBLICLY on this Arizona State website…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
There are also seem to be no further meetings scheduled for this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’, even though this Board EVAPORATES at the end of this year.
According to the original HB2624 Bill signed by the Arizona Governor… this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ is an INTERIM State ‘Public’ Board… and it has an ‘expiration date’.
It ‘expires’ on December 31, 2016 ( end of this year ).
After that… all decisions with regards to this new Arizona State Park are completely up to the existing Arizona State Parks Board.
Correction for above. I actually ‘typed up’ the text above a few days ago, but only got around to posting it today, so the DATE is wrong up above.
Paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
—————————————————–
As of today ( January 31, 2016 ), the PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board remains in violation of Arizona Open Meetings LAWS and has still not posted the minutes of their last known PUBLIC meeting, 3 months ago, on October 23, 2015.
——————————————————
Also… here’s a ‘followup’ which includes a blurb from Arizona State Parks own BUDGET document, acknowledging the fact that this “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” actually EVAPORATES on December 31, 2016… and Arizona Parks then ‘takes over’ the administration of the ‘Memorial Fund’ ( and all decisions related to the new Arizona State Park )…
** ARIZONA STATE PARKS BOARD BUDGET DOCUMENT
**
** THE PART THAT TALKS ABOUT THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL PARK
This Arizona State Parks 2015 budget document CONFIRMS that the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Advisory Board’s ‘authority’ lapses on December 31, 2016.
http://www.azleg.gov/jlbc/15AR/spb.pdf
From that document…
————————————————————-
Yarnell Hill Memorial
The budget includes $500,000 from the General Fund in FY 2015 for the new Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park.
This amount funds the following adjustments:
Establish Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park
The budget includes a one-time appropriation of $500,000 from the General Fund in FY 2015 to establish Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park. The park is being created to honor 19 Prescott firefighters who were killed fighting a wildfire near Yarnell, Arizona.
The FY 2015 Environment Budget Reconciliation Bill (BRB) (Laws 2014, Chapter 13) establishes Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park. The Environment BRB creates the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board, which will determine whether to establish the new park, in addition to allowing the board to designate a site for the park.. The $500,000 General Fund appropriation will be used for land acquisition.
Furthermore, the Environment BRB establishes the Yarnell Hill Memorial Fund, which consists of legislative appropriations and donations for the purposes of land acquisition, site maintenance and board member travel expenses.
The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board will administer the fund until December 31, 2016, when the board’s authority lapses. At that time, the State Parks Board will administer the fund.
Laws 2014, Chapter 273 contains the same language for Yarnell Memorial State Park as the FY 2015 Environment BRB, except for the $500,000 General Fund appropriation. However, this separate legislation contains an emergency clause.
————————————————————-
I am so jam packed with stuff today and aiming to get back to help Sonny with a project before the rain and snow hit today—but as you see the photos I emailed you all— that is in area of parcel 800-20-057 so near to Gordi’s land which was lost in the fire—I cannot imagine him being cool with all this activity near his property- also Michael and Cheryl Tilly lost a lot of their land and borders this trail—I will have to get some input on this….as well as Beth Foley and John Hernandez area—and Cavalier/Todd Sullivan/Fuquay…
and I hope this board realizes I know and I mean I KNOW that area up there and if they think they are gonna imminent domain these folks properties to make their plan more accessible I will alert the owners and if people try to use another area going up—KNOW your area please because some properties say Murphy but it all ties into the same folks; OX RANCH….I just know the area and its wildlife and well it seems EVERYTIME I pass this area of white helmet people- they are AT EASE— conserving energy I guess— See you soon Sonny—oh and to update you Sonny moved some boulders the other day that caused the ER trip but he is resting back at cabin and due to storm I am gonna help him on some stuff so be there soon Sonny.
Gotta run
Sonny was ‘moving boulders’?
Glad he’s back at the cabin.
Regarding the ‘trail’ and its progress ( or lack thereof )… I still wonder how the ‘Memorial Board’ is planning to handle the June 30, 2016 ‘dedication’ itself.
Not even any word yet about whether THAT is going to be some PRIVATE ceremony… or open to the PUBLIC ( who are paying for all of it ).
PUBLIC or PRIVATE… I can imagine a whole lot of dignitaries ( and press ) will want to be there… but there’s NO WAY most of those people will be able to ‘hike’ this planned trail to get out there.
So I wonder what the ‘plan’ is going to be.
Try to arrange special permission with Lee and DJ Helm and use the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ as one gigantic parking lot for the ‘dedication ceremony’?
Use HELICOPTERS to shuttle people out there that day ( June 30, 2016 )?
Some other plan?
It’s almost about time to actually be hearing what ‘the plan’ really is going to be for the ‘dedication’ ceremony.
It’s also unclear whether it really is up to the ‘Memorial Board’ to figure all that out… or whether it’s now totally up to the Arizona State Parks Board to plan this ‘dedication ceremony’.
The ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ ‘evaporates’ at the end of this year, on December 31, 2016.
Yes I did move some boulders and did some what is called heavy lifting by doctors. You haven’t lived until you have carried an Atlas Copco drill machine up a 50 foot ladder then lugged it down a drift for a 100 yards of so to your working face in a mine. Those Swede machines were made for big Swedes, but after wrestling them a while you do appreciate lighter machines. So the doctors don’t want you lifting more than ten pounds for some time. Well when there are things to do the mind and body react to do things. With the faith of a mustard seed you can move mountains, but my abilities and faith are fortunate enough to move boulders. Actually with a good lever you can lift the earth as well, and a good six foot digging bar as a lever raised a couple boulders enough I could get a chain around them. My trusty diesel F250 dragged them down the hill to where I wanted to move them. It was that and lifting a 50 or so pound box of tools that had me later thinking I had been stung by a scorpion or a recluse spider on my left leg below the knee. With the right leg and foot swollen from the previous operations where they send a catheter up your artery to the heart, and the other stinging all night like a scorpion bite I decided to see if I needed another stint. Turns out with some testing only a pinched nerve in my back, so a little pain med and now I am fine and was back on the job today.
These doctors are getting pretty good at figuring out nerve problems and I was happy not to have another stint. So good I wouldn’t mind if fire investigators on the Yarnell hill board would get a few lessons from them.
Joy and I viewed the route they are taking up over the mountains. Even worse than I though going from the elephant bend down the mountain and up through about the steepest place they could find. I think those 38 thousand dollar copter rides are going to be on the upswing. If you happen to have a copter and know anything about hauling snake bite and scorpion bite victims into a hospital, heart attack victims, broken bone victims, and the like from there into the Prescott Hospital you could make a killing. Three or four rides a year would keep you in high cotton and if that is signed and used as I think it will be, there will be plenty of sprained ankles and use for a helicopter person. Maybe they will build some nice landings right there where the trail begins off Hwy. 89. It would be a smart idea.
Reply to Sonny post on January 31, 2016 at 8:44 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Yes I did move some boulders and did some what
>> is called heavy lifting by doctors.
>>
>> The doctors don’t want you lifting more than ten
>> pounds for some time.
I don’t know if any of these ‘doctors’ actually told you WHY that is a ‘standard thing’ after ANY ‘heart procedure’… but it’s really pretty simple.
After eons of ‘evolution’… there is still almost NOTHING that can cause a faster SPIKE in human blood pressure than attempting to ‘lift’ something. The heavier the object… the greater the SPIKE in blood pressure… ESPECIALLY if you also ‘hold your breath’ when you go to do it… like a weightlifter does.
And for weeks ( 8- 10 ) or perhaps MONTHS after ANY ‘heart procedure’… those kinds of SPIKES in blood pressure are dangerous. Bad things could happen… very quickly.
It’s basically the equivalent of sitting in your car in the driveway and just stomping your foot on the gas and RACING the engine.
Same story. BAD things could happen doing that ( as I’m sure you know )… especially if the ‘engine’ isn’t ‘warmed up’.
If you HAVE to lift something on the heavy side… just remember to NOT HOLD YOUR BREATH while doing it . Keep inhaling/exhaling WHILE doing it and the blood pressure SPIKE won’t be as bad.
Safe bet: Don’t do it at all until DOCS say AOK.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Turns out with some testing only a pinched nerve in
>> my back, so a little pain med and now I am fine and
>> was back on the job today.
Glad to hear that’s all it was, Irish.
Be careful out there.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Joy and I viewed the route they are taking up over the
>> mountains. Even worse than I though going from the
>> elephant bend down the mountain and up through
>> about the steepest place they could find.
Yep. Based on the photos Joy sent… there are a lot of people who won’t be able to even START that long 2-mile hike up the Weavers from that location… unless they install some ‘escalators’.
Very STEEP… and right off the bat.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Maybe they will build some nice landings right there
>> where the trail begins off Hwy. 89. It would be a smart idea.
According to some of the ‘minutes’ from some of the meetings of this PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ that actually HAVE been ‘released’ ( in accordance with Arizona Open Meeting LAWS )… they are supposed to actually end up with 40 ( FORTY ) ‘parking stalls’ there where the trail ‘begins’ off Hwy 89.
From the minutes of their May 29, 2015 meeting…
————————————————————
2. Discussion and Report of the Access Subcommittee.
Chief Ben Palm presented this item with use of a PowerPoint presentation (see information posted at http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html ).
Mr. Ream stated that ADOT is working with ASP to determine and locate a parking lot and access off of Arizona State Highway 89.
Mr. Jeff Whitney ( Ariziona State Forester ) asked how many parking stalls are planned for the parking lot.
Mr. Ream responded that 40 stalls and ADOT is conducting a feasibility study.
Chief Willis asked if ADOT will be constructing the trail.
Chairman Black stated that she has requested cooperation from ADOT, as well as State Land Department. Chairman Black also stated that ADOT has been eager to assist and will be present at the July 31, 2015 meeting to provide more detailed information.
————————————————————
By the way… this will come as no surprise to anyone… but the link to the ‘PowerPoint’ presentation given by Chief Ben Palm at this meeting is bogus.
All you will get if you try to go to that link is “Page not found”.
Also… the supposed ‘more information from ADOT’ that was supposed to be given at the July 31, 2015 meeting is nowhere in the PUBLIC ‘minutes’ that were released following THAT meeting.
So not only are there SUPPOSED to be 40 ( FORTY ) parking spots there on the side of Highway 89… there is also supposed to be SIGNAGE so that tourists can stop and ‘read all about it’ without having to make the hike…
From the minutes of their September 18, 2015 meeting…
————————————————————–
Bruce Lindquist discussed how he had been in talks with the State Land Department to get information regarding the trail location; that there should be a sign in the parking area describing what is at the fatality (site) for those who can not make the trail.
————————————————————–
From the photos that Joy just sent… it looks like they are going to have to start using dynamite and ‘blasting out’ if they ever think they are going to have a full-blown 40-car parking lot there at that ‘trailhead’.
CORRECTION for above…
My bad. When I ‘tested’ the link up above in a browser, I left a character out of the URL so that is why I was getting ‘Page Not Found’.
The link in the ‘minutes’ DOES work… but it only goes to the top level Arizona State Parks Yarnell Hill Memorial Board page.
That would be here…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
The ‘PowerPoint’ they are talking about appears to be down in the section where the ‘minutes’ are posted.
And this appears to be the direct ‘link’ to that ‘Presentation’…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Memorial_PowerPoint_04-10-15.pdf
Irish alright. He failed to mention the blood clot n bad ass hernias it caused not just pinched nerve
And yes doctors all said rest until late spring.
Maybe Sonny will listen to wwtktt
Thanks WTKTT for the info about the heart. No the doctors do not mention the reason they don’t want you to lift more than 10lbs. That makes sense– So they did say my heart is working at 35%. They said that is not bad considering that most people have hearts working at 50% capacity. Joy an I both want to get back to hiking and have some hikes to do with people that want to see the Weaver area. Joy is down now with something like the flu so it will be a time of recovery for us.
That hiking trail they have arranged is a joke and will exclude most people if they take that route. I suppose they want to keep people away from the site because once it is seen how the GMHS crew were sacrificed by Marsh, Steed and others I believe are responsible, then people will not be putting the Yarnell Hill Tragedy in such a wonderful light as it has been portrayed. I hope they do have a sign indicating this as one of the World’s most bungled wild land fire fighting jobs resulting in the unnecessary deaths of 19 young fire fighters as well as the destruction of half of Yarnell. Add to that the deaths by suicide and skewed deaths of over 74 out of pop. 645 of mostly elderly in only two years after the fire. So portray this truthfully or not at all. Put Marsh and Steed and the rest of the fire fighting bosses up as a disaster when it comes to protecting their crews. We ought to have Willis and Dudley as honorable mention on the sign as well. They had their say. If the truth is known about this tragedy people will demand answers–there will be improvements that will save lives. I hope such words well thought out are put up on a sign near there.
I am certain that people will eventually get to the truth of this failed effort at wild land fire fighting.
This thing did get out of hand. Too many wild land fire fighters that died previous to this poorly fought fire deserve honors above what we saw at Yarnell. The people at Mann Gulch were killed through no fault of their own. I think the same can be said of the 14 at Storm King. Dr. Ted Putnam can talk about those two since he has investigated both, and on the board of investigators at Storm King. What of the Dulce Fire. But here at Yarnell, perhaps their errors and lack of following safety rules will help save future firefighters if they know how badly their bosses can fuck up. Here we know 17 young men are dead as a direct result of the negligence of Steed and Marsh. We know more are indirectly responsible since this fire could have been contained easily enough with three or four good cowboys, yet a local fire department did not bother to lift a hand on the evening of Friday, June 28, 2013 when it started.
Where were they when the shit hit the fan? Polishing trucks I suppose or sitting there with a thumb up their ass.
If the Yarnell people express anger at how all this was handled then the public must understand how badly this fire was handled and how much destruction it has wrought not only on the killing of 17 young men that only followed orders and the later distruction of half the homes and stress and sadness it left in its aftermath. The obvious highly skewed death count of locals since the fire speaks to the suspect fire retardant that was dumped in excess of 30,000 gallons in the immediate vicinity–very much right on top of residences.
There can never be ample thanks to people like WTKTT, Bob Powers, Gary Olsen, RTS, Woodsman, Marti and the many others that support this web site. And not least of all John Dougherty. These men have the task of exposing the many false hoods we saw here. Their efforts will expose the errors that caused the deaths here. Those revelations will correct the errors that will change things to save future lives. These people and those supporting their efforts are the heroes in this mess we call the Yarnell Hill Fire Incident.
Reply to Sonny post on January 28, 2016 at 12:42 pm
>> Sonny asked…
>>
>> WTKTT – Do we know the exact time Donut left the small hill below the grader?
Pretty much.
Looks like Brendan started ‘walking down’ at 1536 ( 3:36 PM ).
** THE SHORT STORY
1533:00 – Following the 1531 ‘weather advisory’, Jesse calls Brendan to pass the information on to Brendan ( who did not hear it at 1531 )… and they then decide ( together ) that Brendan needs to ‘evaluate where he is’.
1535:00 – Brendan and Steed decide ( together ) that Brendan needs to leave lookout spot.
1536:00 – Brendan starts his 3 minute walk down from his lookout spot.
1539:00 – Brendan finishes his walk down and emerges at ‘T’ section.
1539:30 – Brendan considers deployment options and then gets ready to call Frisby.
1540:00 – Frisby accidentally comes across Brendan at the ‘T’ section.
1540:30 – Frisby talks with Marsh over intra-crew using radio Brendan handed him.
1540:45 – Frisby calls Brown and tells him to get drivers to move GM vehicles.
1541:00 – Brown does his ‘about face’ on Cutover trail in response to Frisby’s request.
** THE LONG STORY
From a previous discussion about this back in Chapter VI ( SIX )…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vi-comments/#comment-31340
On April 22, 2014 at 8:55 pm, WTKTT said…
1541 ( 3:41 PM ) is absolutely the moment when Captain Trueheart Brown did his ‘about face’ on his hike back east on the cutover trail.
This ‘about face’ was recorded on Brown’s GPS unit… which takes its time directly from orbiting satellites and that time information is included in the data packets coming from the satellite.
So, since ( according to Brown’s own Unit Log ) the REASON Brown did his ‘about face’ is because that is the moment Frisby told him to round up drivers to evac vehicles…
…it is IMPOSSIBLE for Frisby to have come across Brendan, and had that initial conversation with Marsh about moving the vehicles, any LATER than 1541.
There is only a 60 second ‘window’ there for ‘fudge’ since the GPS unit was only updating every 60 seconds… but since Brown had already advanced 265 linear feet back west between the 1541 and 1542 satellite update… that really does put the ‘turnaround’ moment back to within a few seconds after 1541, or exactly at 1541.
Also… in McDonough’s SECOND ADOSH interview they actually revisited this moment and asked Brendan specifically how long it had taken him to ‘come down’ from his lookout location and arrive at the old-grader.
Brendan first corrects them and then says he did NOT ’emerge’ at the old-grader.
He said he actually ’emerged’ right there at the ‘T’ section of the roads east of the grader and that is where he met Frisby coming down the two-track.
Brendan himself puts his travel time down from the top of the mound to that ‘T’ section at exactly 3 minutes. He seemed sure of that.
So… Let’s say that Brendan was only waiting at the ‘T’ section for 1 minute before Frisby ‘came around the corner’ on the UTV and ‘accidentally’ discovered him there.
Let’s also say that it only took Frisby about 1 minute after finding Brendan to have his documented “face-to-face is cancelled, I’m evacuating EAST with Brendan, do you want us to move your vehicles, too?” conversation with Marsh/Steed and then call Brown at 1541 ( the known time that happened ) and request the drivers.
Working both ‘forward’ and ‘backward’ from the KNOWN time of 1526:58, when Cory Ball photographed Trueheart Brown stationary on the WEST end of the Cutover trail… WITHOUT his ‘gear’ or ‘field pack’ on… and the KNOWN time of 1541, when Brown would eventually do his ‘about face’ on EAST end of the Cutover trail… we get this timeline…
———————————————————————————-
1526:58 – Frisby and Brown are stationary at the WEST end of the ‘Cutover Trail’, according to both Brown’s GPS data and Cory Ball’s IMG_1882 photo, taken with his iPhone 4s.
NOTE: According to Brown’s Unit Log, Marsh requested the face-to-face a minute or two BEFORE the 1529:51 start of Byron Kimball’s weather report Frisby ‘took off west’ in the Polaris Ranger just before the weather report, and Brown also then started his hike to the EAST on the cutover trail, according to Brown.
In the 1526:58 ( 3:26:58 PM ) Cory Ball photo, Trueheart Brown does NOT ‘have his gear with him’ ( no field pack on, etc. ). This would appear to CONFIRM that Marsh had NOT yet called Frisby and asked for that second face-to-face meeting… because the moment after he did… Both Brown’s and Frisby’s Unit Logs say that is when Brown ‘got his gear out of the ranger’ and started his hike EAST on the Cutover trail… and Frisby took off to the WEST in the Ranger.
GPS data says Trueheart Brown started his HIKE to the EAST on the Cutover trail sometime between 1528 and 1529. He was ‘stationary’ at 1528 where he had been standing for a few minutes ( and photographed by Cory Ball ), but by the time the GPS unit updates a minute later, at 1529, he has now moved 149.67 feet to the EAST on the Cutover Trail ( the start of his hike to the EAST ).
1527:00 – Frisby and Brown are still stationary at the WEST end of the ‘Cutover Trail’.
1528:00 – Eric Marsh requests second face-to-face with Brian Frisby.
1528:30 – Trueheart Brown gets his ‘gear’ out of the Ranger, starts hiking EAST on Cutover Trail.
1529:00 – Brian Frisby departs in the BR Polaris Ranger to meet up with Marsh.
1529:51 – Byron Kimball begins his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.
(Byron Kimball): “Within the half-hour, (pause) EAST winds. (pause) Possibility of as high as 50 miles an hour or likely 25 (pause) definitely 25, 35 gusting 40 (pause) east / northeast within the half hour. Um… the outpoint to outflow line also ( will be ) located…”
( Video capturing radio traffic ends at 1530:14 and the rest of the weather report is cut off )
1530:00 – Brown ‘pauses’ on his hike EAST and ‘stands still’ to listen to Kimball’s weather report.
1531.00 – Byron Kimball has now finished his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.
1531:30 – Brown resumes his hike EAST after finishing listening to Kimball’s weather report.
1532:00 – Frisby is still heading towards Marsh and Brown is still hiking EAST on ‘Cutover Trail’.
1533:00 – Immediately following the ‘weather advisory’, Jesse calls Brendan to pass the information on to Brendan ( who did not hear it at 1531 )… and they then decide ( together ) that Brendan needs to ‘evaluate where he is’. Brendan would later tell ADOSH that winds started ‘picking up’ right after that 1531 ‘weather advisory’.
1535:00 – Brendan and Steed decide ( together ) that Brendan needs to leave lookout spot.
1536:00 – Brendan starts his 3 minute walk down from his lookout spot.
1539:00 – Brendan finishes his walk down and emerges at ‘T’ section.
1539:30 – Brendan considers deployment options and then gets ready to call Frisby.
1540:00 – Frisby accidentally comes across Brendan at the ‘T’ section.
1540:30 – Frisby talks with Marsh over intra-crew using radio Brendan handed him.
1540:45 – Frisby calls Brown and tells him to get drivers to move vehicles.
1541:00 – Brown does his ‘about face’ on Cutover trail in response to Frisby’s request.
1541:30 – Jesse Steed gives ‘tools up’ order and GM starts assembling in the safe black.
1542:08 – DIVSA Eric Marsh reports ( on TAC 1 ) that the fire has now burned through the middle-bowl retardant line that had been laid earlier in the day at the direction of Air Attack / Lead Plane ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ), and it is heading (quote) “towards the structures… uh… (pause) southern… uh… (pause) into Yarnell”.
1542:14 – Immediately following Marsh’s report that the fire is now headed “towards the structures” and “into Yarnell”… OPS2 Paul Musser calls Eric Marsh ( on TAC 1 ) asking about GM’s “availability” and whether GM is still “committed to the RIDGE”. OPS2 Paul Musser made this radio call at 1542:14 from where he was supervising structure protection operations on Sickles Ranch Road, up on the NORTH side of the fire. OPS2 Paul Musser would not be seen heading towards Yarnell for another 9 minutes, when his dark-blue 2-door pickup would be photographed by the Panebaker Air-Study team passing their camera location on Hays Ranch Road at exactly 1551 ( 3:51 PM ).
1543:51 – Christopher MacKenzie’s Canon photo IMG_0885 showing two FFs just sitting on a rock down below the anchor point.
1544:02 – Christopher MacKenzie’s Canon photo IMG_0886 showing FFs exiting to right of camera down below ‘anchor point’. Wade Parker is seen on right side of photo.
1544:08 – Christopher MacKenzie’s Canon photo IMG_0887 showing more FFs exiting to right of camera, down below anchor point. Andrew Ashcraft in the foreground.
1545:00 – Eric Marsh is now already heading SOUTH and “scouting ahead” to the BSR.
1549:00 – Brendan has already been dropped off at GM vehicles by Frisby, gotten in the GM SUP truck, and ( according to his own testimony ) fired up the air-conditioner and turned up the VOLUME on the onboard intra-crew radio so he could be sure to hear the ongoing conversations on the GM intra-crew channel. At some point here he gets OUT of the SUP truck to take how own iPhone pictures of what appears to be a fire/smoke devil/whirl right there to the north on the fast-advancing fireline.
1549:59 – Christopher MacKenzie has ‘arrived’ up at the ‘anchor point rest spot’ and takes his first iPhone photo ( IMG_2733.JPG ) at that location where everyone is gathering.
1550:00 – OPS1 Todd Abel is now speaking to Marsh on a TAC channel ( Caldwell video ). According to Brendan’s testimony at ‘Wildfire Today’… Marsh has already left the anchor point area and is now already hiking SOUTH and “scouting ahead” towards the Boulder Springs Ranch. Marsh tells Abel he is “working his way off the top”, but fails to make his full intentions known to OPS1 Abel. Abel tells Marsh to “hunker and be safe” without realizing Marsh is already “scouting” the route to bring GM down to the BSR.
1550:35 – Cory Ball’s IMG_1884 photo taken from where the dozer loboy and the BR Chase truck were staged, in that clearing just west of that ‘white fence and gate’ at the end of where the pavement of Lakewood and Manzanita both terminate.
1551:00 – Wade Parker takes a photo from the ‘anchor point area’ with his smartphone that would eventually be attached to a TEXT message he would transmit to his mother 13 minutes later, at 1604.
1551:26 – OPS2 Paul Musser is photographed by the Panebaker Air-Study team passing their camera location on Hays Ranch Road, in Peeples Valley. Musser is heading EAST at that point, and towards Yarnell, driving his dark-blue 2-door pickup with the “Arizona Incident Management Team” square logo on the side. OPS2 Paul Musser is coming FROM the Sickles Ranch Road area, where he had been supervising structure protection efforts. It has been 9 minutes since OPS2 Paul Musser radioed Eric Marsh ( from the Sickles Ranch Road area ) at 1542.14 and asked about Granite Mountain’s “availability” and whether they were still “committed to the RIDGE”.
Thanks WTKTT on those times. So it was just a little over an hour after Donut left that the GMHS crew got caught in the fire storm. It also shows that Marsh knew the wind had changed and the fire was headed toward the structures. He had to know then that if he dropped the men down into that canyon and basin they would be flanking the fire in a hail Mary attempt to get to Helms ranch. With the fire at a lower elevation and winds squirrely at 40-50 mph and plenty of thick brush to beat through with 19 young bushwhackers, we do have a case for behavioral science. I think Dr. Ted Putnam might go bald scratching his head on this one.
But the next thing to also scratch your head on is how a well seasoned wild land fire fighter and marine, Mr. Jesse Steed could succumb to any order to drop down into a trap like that. Even a non-firefighter, once he has a minimal knowledge of how a fire runs up a hill doubly as fast or more and the obvious chimney effect of a steep mountain and canyon even increases that uphill factor would have him wondering why?
Those answers need to be known despite Willis and Dudley reports that this was just a sad day in the world of wild land fire fighting. To put it that way is complete denial of a situation that needs a proper answer, and proper investigators else this tragedy will be repeated over and over.
Gary mentions some fine things to understand. From what he says I gather that the USFS is not highly interested in training young men. Maybe they think like the army that told my Dad in WW1–take care of that god damned machine gun–we can always get another machine gunner, but those machine guns are hard to replace.
Indeed, if young men are not trained on the job and really experience what the GMHS crew went through then they will be dummed down enough that they will not know how to refuse a situation that would kill them. Computer simulation in wild land fire fighting sounds to me to be a lot of cheap bunk. Screen play never will replace real life crawling through brush like that, then feeling the steep drop off and cursing from falling in the steep and rough bouldery decline where your feet more often than not try to take the position your head was in, and once at the bottom on a 106 degree day with 40 pounds on your back you know there is no way you are going to get out alive if that flanked fire changes to your direction. As Gary would say you get into the turkey baster and hope to hell your body looks better that way when they bury you. In the manzanita it wont happen since that shit melts lead right out of cans and even aluminum that needs at least 700 F to start melting. Boiling water at 250 will kill you fast enough, but 1500-2000 degrees is a death warrant.
The shame here is that the Governor puts half a million toward a memorial but nothing toward training young firemen. Never even considers that we ought to have a system set up so that the poor understanding and knowledge that the GMHS and other crews with such training and lack of safety rule understanding and observance is addressed. But is she listened to investigators and Willis, Dudley talks and believes they are the answer to the deaths of these young men then she is certainly fooled with what ought to be done to insure the lives of future wild land fire fighters. Gary is not the only one of long fire fighting experience that has said that these guys rather have themselves look good and play the game so they don’t loose face or position than change what is killing these young men.
I believe if you trained men in that area, had them first hand see and understand how they can defend themselves by knowing and observing the 10 and 18 and have them bushwhack that area to see how easily it is to die if you do not observe safety rules–then you will have young men that will stand up to their bosses and refuse an order that would kill them.
Several millions have been spent here,a million to play up the efforts of 19 men whose bosses erred and the young men did not understand how they were about to be killed due to the careless breaking of rules. Indeed a few million to build a training center here would be the greatest tribute to those 19 lost lives–the greatest tribute because it would save future lives.
Reply to Sonny post on January 29, 2016 at 5:08 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Yes we did see observer copters causing some flare ups in the Yarnell incident.
>> One reason I told Joy this was a prescribed burn. Later we were told no– the flare
>> ups were accidental, not purposeful.
>> WTKTT responded…
>>
>> Sonny… just curious. Told by WHO ( that the flare-ups were accidental )?
>> WHO was it that actually said that to you ( and Joy )?
>> On January 30, 2016 at 1:51 pm, Joy A Collura responded…
>>
>> I can via cell in phnx Va er answer the question… Mike Dudley set up a
>> phone conference with tom Zimmerman Rachel Wilson Brent the meteorologist
>> and if u remember that conference of names I listed early on
Thank you, Joy.
I remember you talking about this ‘conference call’ that SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley set up with you and Sonny.
You posted the following about it back in Chapter 7, along with the emails that Mike Dudley used to set up that conference call with you and Sonny, when that ‘Mikde Dudley’ video of him talking to Utah firefighters first surfaced.
It’s also where we see you mentioning the ‘fanning of the fire’ by the yellow/white N14HX BLM chopper to Mike Dudley in your own email…
From Chapter VII ( 7 )…
=====================================================================================
On June 26, 2014 at 4:50 pm, Joy A. Collura said…
The speaker in that video led the SAIR investigation – his name is Mike Dudley.
I thought it was a decent video but it did not teach these firefighting community the proper assessment to the YHF was all—
I sent him ( Mike Dudley ) an email Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2013 7:50 PM
Content of (my) email ( to Mike Dudley )…
——————————————————————
We were at the fire line and curious to know why you all have not contacted us as witness’ as well as for the footage you can see on my hiking partner’s hiking page in comment wall she has a lot of photos from that day – not from highway or home backyard but there where the Hotshots were.
We had meter readings at 43mph not 80-90 like Willis states, and we know for fact that area did not have 10 ft chaparral but maybe wide intertwined and realistic it was 6ft max and the saddest part was the low altitude hovering/observing aircrafts that were not putting out any fires yet we did see indeed much fanning of the fire.
We have much detail to that morning and afternoon.
Joy A. Collura
———————————————————————-
And he ( Mike Dudley ) replied Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 6:35 AM…
Content of his ( Mike Dudley’s ) email…
———————————————————————-
Good morning Tex and Joy,
Thanks for making contact with me. We had been alerted to your presence that day by the reporter from the Prescott paper and she gave us the pictures that were used in the article. However, we did not get a contact number to reach you. We would like to interview you and your hiking partner as to what you encountered and your observations. More importantly, what route you took to leave the area.
I’d like to schedule a time to call you tomorrow if possible.
Please let me know what time works for you.
Thank you.
Mike Dudley
USDA Forest Service
mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
801-540-4881
———————————————————————–
Then phone conference ( with Dudley and other SAIT investigators )…
8/13/13 2:04 pm – 2:48pm – Washington
Tim Foley ( t1foley (at) hotmail.com ),
Incident meteorologist Brent Wachter,
Richa Wilson (rwilson (at) fs.fed.us) and
Wildland Fire Leadership- retired US Forestry – ( Tom Zimmerman (his link),
Mike Dudley- (Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 6:35 AM)
USDA Forest Service
mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
801-540-4881
That was our dealings with that speaker ( Mike Dudley ).
I just wish because he is so at ease and comfortable and easy to listen to that he said a little more on the golden rules being broken and the cardinal rules too that were broken because that is unfair to the men and women listening to him.
See how I use to say Jim Karels backing up the SAIRS did a great
disservice — I now think this kind of speaking does too.
=================================================================================
So the people from the SAIT that were actually on that conference call with you and Sonny were…
From the bottom of the SAIR document…
————————————————————–
Investigation Team
Jim Karels, Team Lead, State Forester, Florida Forest Service
Mike Dudley, Team Deputy Lead, Director, State and Private Forestry, USFS Intermountain
Region/Northern Region
Dr. Tom Zimmerman, Senior Wildland Fire Management Specialist, Tom Zimmerman Consulting
Richa ( Rachel ) Wilson, Documentation Specialist/Write; Historian, USFS Intermountain Region
J. Brent Wachter, Incident Meteorologist, National Weather Service, Albuquerque
Tim Foley, Fire Behavior Analyst, Rocky Mountain Area Type 1IMT; BLM ( retired )
Others?
—————————————————————
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> That was a concerned question to hikers was the yellow n white
>> helicopter and locations so that is who sonny referred to.
Gotcha. Thanks again, Joy.
I guess I just didn’t realize that the subject of the ‘fanning of the fire’ by the yellow/white BLM Helicopter ( N14HX ) was actually discussed during that conference call and amongst you, Mike Dudley, Zimmerman, Wilson, Wachter, and Foley.
Sonny’s last post now makes it sound like they really did ACKNOWLDEGE that Helicopter N14HX was responsible for ‘fanning’ the fire and some of the ‘flare ups’ out there on Sunday morning, based on what you and Sonny were telling them AND some of your photographs, but they were then just calling them ‘accidental flare ups’.
I never realized they ( Dudley and the other SAIT investigators ) ever actually ACKNOWLEDGE these ‘flare ups’ at all, or ever TALKED about them with you and Sonny.
To even refer to them as ‘accidental’ means they were actually ‘admitting’ that ‘flare ups’ actually happened.
That’s fairly significant, considering we are talking about the SAME helicopter, ( the yellow/white BLM N14HX helicopter ), with the same pilot, having done pretty much the exact same thing, in the exact same location, the DAY BEFORE.
It was IC Russ Shumate, the Arizona Forestry employee in charge of the Initial Attack on Saturday, who testified that the ‘flare up’ and the ‘escape’ of the fire on HIS watch happened WHILE the same N14HX helicopter was delivering those bladder bags to the Lewis DOC Crew on Saturday afternoon.
The bladder bags were being ‘dropped’ ( again, according to Shumate ) right in the middle of where the men were working on containing the fire on Saturday, and NOT off to the side or back up at the Helispot.
And it was DURING that ‘hover and drop’ operation on Saturday that the fire flared up, spotted OVER the east flank two-track road, and then started burning down into the drainages and became the fire that had ‘escaped’ Initial Attack.
And that ‘escaped fire’ would go on to become a National Tragedy.
So it is very, very interesting to learn that Mike Dudley and the other members of the SAIT were ‘acknowledging’ that helicopter N14HX really might have been ‘fanning the fire’ ( on Sunday )… but they were just calling it ‘an accident’… and then there was no mention of this in their report for possibly being any kind of contributing factor for anything that happened either on Sunday… OR the DAY BEFORE… when Russ Shumate’s ‘Initial Attack’ FAILED because of that late afternoon ‘flare-up’ DURING a ‘helicopter drop’ at the scene of the fire.
too tired and drained but I wanted to state a CONFIRMATION that Sonny can give his view but my sharp memory never HEARD accidental- THE DIRECT QUESTION asked of us was “do you think that yellow and white helicopter hovering was a contributing factor to the end result.” We stated our views which were different- So I am serious I think because it was mentioned in email it was brought up in interview was all–nothing more to it was my view but Sonny spoke more on it than me…however it never made it to SAIR notes and I even question the current available SAIR notes on the hikers-
plus I know Mike Dudley emailed but I do not think he was in that phone conference with the hikers just email and one phone call I made direct much later to Mike—
Thanks again, Joy.
The significant thing is still to learn that these possible ‘flare ups’ being caused by the yellow/white BLM N14HX Helicopter WERE ( apparently ) discussed by the SAIT investigators DURING their conference call with both you and Sonny.
I had thought the only thing they were really interested in learning from you and Sonny was the ‘route’ you had taken ( yourselves ) to exit the area that day.
Given what you and Sonny saw happening with your own eyes on Sunday, I still think it is NO COINCIDENCE that the exact moment of the ‘flare up’ the day before, on Saturday, absolutely coincided with the moment that the same N14HX helicopter was dropping ‘bladder bags’ at the fire, and hovering DIRECTLY over the area where the ‘spot over’ occurred.
We know that is when the fire ‘escaped’… because Russ Shumate himself SAID that is when it happened.
From Russ Shumate’s ADOSH interview on August 15, 2013…
——————————————————————————
A: We – discussion was should we put Bambi buckets – run it up there. My determination was what the – what the altitude density and the efficiency of a Bambi bucket I would probably be dumping less than 50 gallons a load.
Q2: Yeah.
A: So the determination was well, let’s sling up bladder bags. So the plan was to sling up — as I recall — 12 bladder bags. A bladder bag is a 5 gallon backpack of water.
Q: Okay.
A: Um, so we slung load that up there. WHILE that sling load was occurring was
when the fire on the – against the two track picked up and spotted over.
——————————————————————
Key statement…
“WHILE that ( helicopter ) sling load was occurring was when the fire on the – against the two track PICKED UP and SPOTTED OVER”.
A few minutes later ( in the interview ), Russ Shumate also confirms that the helicopter dropping the bladder bags was NOT doing it back up at the established Helispot, about 1/4 mile north of the fire location.
The Helicopter had been hovering DIRECTLY OVER THE FIRE LOCATION ( and right where the crews were working ) to perform this ‘bladder bag’ delivery…
NOTE: The ‘Helitack’ that Russ Shumate is now referring to was ‘Nate Peck’.
————————————————————————-
Q2: When – when they dropped off the bladder bags did they drop them off at the helispot or near the fire?
A: No, they drop them off right where the guys were.
Q2: Right near the fire line???
A: Because the helitack went down with the hand crew to work the fire and not just sit at the helispot.
Q2: Okay.
A: So he was there with the folks…
Q2: And – and handles the sling load down there.
A: …and – and the helitack the sling load right at the crews location.
————————————————————————-
I cannot tell you HOW MANY TIMES I passed the people. pets and homes before and after the YHF and HOW MANY TIMES I passed the place the area they are building that tourist track off 89 to the two track area–
The past few days there has been almost a dozen white helmet folks up on that steep terrain of hwy 89 in the very area Snakeman, Frank Serros and I relocated WAY TOO MANY rattlesnakes in 2009 and I am sure they have multiplied since- I am not a supporter of this tourist track due to the wildlife to that area and now human hiking disturbances. Another area the wildlife have to move elsewhere because of man made horseshit.
Also, you go walk a dog one day down the streets of Yarnell and over in front of the white fence where it says SESAME STREET you see time to time tourist cars stop there and take photos like tonight when I drove into Glen Ilah I noticed heavy equipment leaving the subdivision so I went to Helms and Sesame area and Helms laid quiet but Sesame was quite tourist-like active with photos and such…in that walk of your dog you will SEE HOW MANY never even leave their home much and who is who VERY QUICK and a huge percentage are recluse folks with your normal high school cliché folks as older adults…and your unique one of a kind artsy fartsy folks…I recently took our mascot dog HOPE HONOR JUSTICE “MAE WEST” ( http://www.wisdompanel.com/community/details/?DogId=41070) to the vet and almost $3,000 later I learn after extensive eye surgery the once homeless dog who became a mascot dog is blind in the same eye my recently deceased father recently became blind in—strange but my point in this here comment overall was to point out I am doing many many many free volunteer hours in my town of Congress in hopes someone comes forward with a new account because I have a much better chance down there than this very unique little town of recluse/cliché folks…seriously come walk your dog and see how many people you see—You may see their pet more than the owner—
So the kids and all affected by the YHF please note that in your book when trying to gain more information—-these people know a fire happened and took their life belongings away but not many have yet shared and some are indeed PART OF THE MISSING ELEMENTS—
I do not agree with Bob Powers because even Eric Marsh on the top of the Weavers 6-30-13 stated we were not geared up to be up there so they can drop retardant drops so I strongly believe this retardant drop is BIG business and anyone screwing to intervene this BIG BUSINESS could get screwed if they do prematurely put a fire out and let’s remember Grantham’s testimony who wanted to help—-so I ain’t buying it—-
Likely Joy is right. Consider so many laws are passed so big business is king. I hope WTKTT comes in on this one. I do know it is totally useless to try to put out a manzanita fire when it is dry and surviving under hot dry conditions. There is plenty reason to immediately control a fire in such area. Here it started in the boulders where the manzanita was sparse and the spread slow until it reached the dense patches on the east side of the Weaver range. To the west side it burned itself out in most places although where there were dense growths down a few canyons it did follow down some until sparse areas showed again. The trick in escaping the fire is to stay in the boulder and sparse areas on the west side. The east side of the Weavers means sudden death if you get caught in the manzanita there.
But considering big business, and fighting wild fires is a multi million dollar affair, it would be no wonder if laws are passed now that would restrict private citizens from putting out such occurrences as the lightening strike. I plead ignorance to the law–no excuse, but I would put the fire out when it threatened to destroy the town as it did in Yarnell–and consider the deaths it creates when gone wild and the risk to old people and others that mostly got out, many with less than minutes to spare. When your back is on fire and your car burning outside, that is a very close call and those close calls happened to more than a few individuals here. See where accolades were handed out to fire men who took credit for saving lives here. So what are the laws on this.
I asked Dr. Putnam were these fires being spread on purpose so that funds and jobs were generated. We do know some fire men were deliberately setting fires to create work. Can they be allowing these fires to go for the same reason. It would be unusual he said.
So it would be interesting to know since so many firemen get angry at reporters who want to go to fire edges to get photos and witness the wild land fires.
I see Sonny used my name to write under my name but helped me time stamp his er before activities and it appears an aneurysm is what they are seeing…keep ya posted..don’t look too good… Long morning and its afternoon already…I’m drained…
**
** TWISP UPDATE
**
** NEW PROPOSED WASHINGTON STATE LAW ALLOWS LOCAL PEOPLE
** TO GET PAID FOR FIGHTING WILDFIRES IF DNR WON’T RESPOND
** WITHIN 30 MINUTES.
Just 48 hours ago, a new piece of wildfire firefighting legislation was introduced onto the floor of the Washington state House of Representatives.
Three of the State Representatives sponsoring this proposed new law ( Joel Kretz (R), Shelly Short (R) and Cary Condotta (R) ) represent parts of Okanogan County, where the Twisp fire took place.
The name of the new piece of proposed legislation is…
———————————————————————————-
HB 2596 – 2015-16
Reducing the occurrences of small wildland fires escalating into catastrophic fires through the creation of a mechanism to better equip local wildland fire suppression entities in their immediate, local suppression activities.
———————————————————————————–
In a nutshell, the proposed LAW establishes a ‘Wildland Firefighting Fund’ in the State of Washington ( using however much money they are going to budget for this ) that allows LOCAL people ( not necessarily even licensed firefighters ) to get PAID with State Money for doing ‘Initial Attacks’ on Widlfires if the Washington Department of Natural Resources ( DNR ) doesn’t respond to any request for HELP within 30 minutes of reporting a ‘Wildfire’.
Some are calling this the “Cory the Cropduster” and/or the “Billy Bob and his Bulldozer” LAW.
Here is the official PRESS RELEASE from the Washington State House of Representatives…
————————————————————————————
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Jan. 27, 2016
CONTACT: Jennifer Hansen, Public Information Officer – (360) 786-7720
Rep. Mary Dye’s Local Wildland Fire Suppression Account legislation receives public hearing
Last year was the worst wildfire season on record in Washington state. Rep. Mary Dye, R-Pomeroy, has made wildfire suppression one of her top priorities.
The 9th District lawmaker has introduced bipartisan legislation that is gaining traction in the Legislature. House Bill 2596, which received a public hearing in the House Agriculture and Natural
Resources Committee on Wednesday, would create a new account to be used to fund immediate, local fire suppression responses by local suppression entities.
The new Local Wildland Fire Suppression Account would be managed by the state Department of Natural Resources (DNR) and funded through an appropriation through the Legislature. Most of the monies in the account would be used to fund immediate, local fire suppression responses.
“A lot of wildfires can be contained early but aren’t because of a lack of access or certainty of available resources. Unfortunately, suppression assets are a larger tool than many small, rural districts have in their toolboxes,” said Dye. “My bill would create a dedicated fund, so that in the event of an emergency that is larger than the local resources available, the decision has already been set to deploy larger assets in a timely manner.”
Under Dye’s bill, a local suppression entity could submit a request for an expenditure from the Local Wildland Fire Suppression Account if a wildfire starts within its jurisdiction. The entity would be expected to provide information on its proposed suppression actions and anticipated costs.
When a request for funds is made, the state Department of Natural Resources would have 30 minutes to either release the amount of money requested, provide a guaranteed level of reimbursement to the entity, or release assets under control of the state agency to facilitate an immediate response.
During public testimony, a local resident of Steven’s County said, “I am encouraged that my neighbors, mostly volunteer fire professionals, might be empowered to fight fires before they become catastrophic by the fund this bill creates.” She added, “Like it or not, in the quiet between fires, the state and local entities both have to acknowledge that resources are limited especially in the small, rural districts. Fire fighters deserve to know they can fight a fire and not wonder if they will financially survive the fire and thereby delay intervention. Citizens are asking for the assurance that unnecessary delays in protecting their property be avoided. It seems that this bill provides that assurance in advance and actual mobilization at the moment of risk rather than when the incident shifts to a crisis.”
It is Dye’s hope that House Bill 2596 will move to an executive session where it can be voted on in the House Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee. That decision will be made by the committee chair, who is a co-sponsor on the bill.
For more information about Rep. Dye, visit: www (dot) representativemarydye (dot) com.
————————————————————————————
And here is a link to the full TEXT of the proposed law…
http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2015-16/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/2596.pdf
While this is interesting and probably needed there are a couple of current info left out.
All Rural fire departments as well as County fir departments ( Any FF groups under government County city and Rural) can have and should have Co-op agreements.
These agreements allow them to IA Fires in their areas even on Federal and State land.
They can submit and be paid for their suppression cost.
That has been in existence for a long time under ICS which includes all emergency recourses
Also there is nothing nor has there ever been any law that prohibits a Citizen if they come upon a fire from taking action on the fire to contain it or put it out. They probably wont get paid but they always got a recognition and thank you from the FS when I worked there.
I would add in Idaho Ranchers have been trained and given equipment in way out areas to Attack fires in their areas and they are paid by BLM or FS or State for their IA actions.
If the State did not have a authorization then Good For Them. Just adds to the wild land interface. The only problem lies in the size and explosiveness of the fire. Then leave it to the professionals.
Recourses should have been Resources—-
.
Sounds like the state of Washington is just trying to get around to codifying what already exists in Idaho, then.
There’s no doubt this is targeted at ‘rural’ areas.
The Washington State Department of Natural Resources (DNR) openly admitted following this recent ‘worst fire season ever’ for them that there came a point where they were overwhelmed and even some Initial Attacks were dependent on out of state resources, some of which took days to arrive.
The head of the DNR in Washington has already requested an IMMEDIATE allocation of an additional 24 MILLION dollars for his budget just to get ready for the NEXT fire season there in Washington State.
I do wonder, though, with regards to this kind of “Cory the Cropduster” legislation about the ‘L’ word.
The ‘L’ word being LIABILITY.
If “Cory the Cropduster” and/or “Billy Bob and his Bulldozer” jump in to do IA and are now going to be considered State ‘contractors’ while doing that… does that also mean they are also completely covered by the State’s liability insurance? There’s nothing in the Washington State proposed legislation that mentions anything about that.
Liability good question.
If the resource is under Contract or Co-op then yes they are covered.
I some one runs out to suppress a fire with out a contract then they are on their own although the State might pay them when they submit a clame they are otherwise on their own. A catch 22??????
We might also learn that all resources including Co-op were committed to fires last year. So untrained resources was all that was left. which goes back to my volunteer service to extinguish a fire thanks for your help.
In the late 50’s that was stopped do to many people Starting fires to make a buck. It is the devil in the law.
I don’t know about Idaho’s approach to this, but one of the interesting things about the proposed Washington State “Billy Bob and his Bulldozer” law is that it has it’s own codified ‘Catch-22’.
The proposed LAW says that if a ‘local suppression entity’ ( they never really do define what that actually means ) requests an ‘allocation’ from this taxpayer funded “Suppression Fund”, and the ‘local resources’ then jump in to do Initial Attack… they then only have SIX HOURS to complete that Initial Attack and declare the fire ‘fully contained’… or they OWE a percentage of the ‘Suppression Fund’ allocation BACK to the State.
That makes it a CONTEST.
Do the job in SIX HOURS and ” Cory the Cropduster” and “Billy Bob and his Dozer” get ALL the money someone promised them… but if they don’t meet that deadline… they don’t.
That sounds like its own ‘recipe for disaster’ with (untrained) locals then willing to do almost anything just to make sure they make ALL of the money someone promised them.
And yes… it also sounds like a great big opportunity for corruption.
The minute the Corys and the Billy Bobs see that DNR is ‘busy’ and unlikely to be able to meet that 30 minute response time during a given (busy) fire season… all that have to do is start their own little wildfire that they know they can put out within the SIX HOUR time limit, call it in themselves and request funds from this new ‘Suppression Fund’… and Voila… they just made themselves some quick money.
It could happen.
If I am understanding you WTKTT legally someone can suppress a fire. Here we are not interested in making a buck but in fact our homes and lives are at risk when this manzanita rejuvenates. My last hike a couple weeks ago with Joy and my Daughter was a tough one getting though the already dense replacement growth that includes highly volatile grass and deciduous growth mixed in with the already dense manzanita. The fertilizer dumps have also aided in areas near Yarnell to be extra dense.
It would be wise to alert the people that it is legal–if it is to protect your home and town and lives by taking care of such as what happened on that mountain near Yarnell. This was a good lesson that you can not depend upon the state or local firemen to protect your city. Here the billionaire rancher has planes loaded with retardant and could have put it out Friday evening when it started. We don’t know what held him back since it was state land he has lease on and adjoins his private holdings. Maybe there are legal reasons he did not put it out.
Generally the ranchers are independent folk and respond to emergencies despite any bullshit law that might prevent them from saving their holdings or risk a town. At least the ranchers I worked for were that way. But I have to say the new world is quite different and some are afraid to offend the powers that be even if it would save lives and a town.
I think in most cases that wild land FF always make a plan to protect housing developments and the public.
If Yarnell would have been planed differently with some management plan that included the housing developments it would have been a different story.
I believe in this case the Overhead were way behind the power curve. A good FBAN could have given them a better plan for containment, A couple more cats with more concern of protecting the town first with a good cat line between the fire and the town close to the town not up on the mountain.
Putting retardant on the fire instead of on the brush in the middle of no where while the fire continued to increase in size.
Their plan was spotty and all over the place. Their plan was point specific rather than an over all assessment.
With what they had they spread way to thin rather than concentrate on the north and east side of the fire down at the structures. They also wasted a lot of retardant that could have been put to use with the 2 HS crews flanking the fire with dozers. They were doing indirect line why not back off and use it to protect Yarnell and Glen Elea.
Putting GM on the mountain was worthless that day when there was every possibility of the uncontrolled fire from the North burning right under their line which is what it did.
Sonny– I would agree with Dr. Putman it is extremely unlikely that Fire Fighters would allow a fire to get out of control so they could make more money. Professional Fire Fighters first brain impulse up on hitting a fire is Stop it Put it out.
The adrenalin is pumping when you are building hot line.
Sonny— to my knowledge there is no law that stops a person that comes across a fire that is small Lightning or Campfire that is burning to stop and put it out or take action to keep it from spreading and notify the authorities. In Idaho locale Rural fire districts often take action on a fire that is near their jurisdiction and assist both FS and BLM. Until their units can arrive on the fire and sometimes they are left to fight it.
Ranchers here in southern Idaho are out and on Lighting fires before FS or BLM even get there.
I still believe to this day had this been a BLM fire (Yarnell) The BLM Engine Crew would have been on it that night.
There was never any reason to tell local FF to stand down.
They knew there was a 2 track to the fire.
When a fire get big then the professionals are better equipped.
Reporters can get in the way and compromise the safety of them self’s if not attached to a Fire person I have never seen a time the Reporters were kept out because the Fire did not want them to see they were doing something wrong.
Any way just some observations from me.
Bob you have to be right on when you say GMHS had no reason to be fighting a fine considering that it had gone wild on the North End — Here we have to assume that there is money to be made if you go out and play fire fighter against something that can not and will not be put out with a crew of even a thousand fire fighters. Then if the chance to line pockets is not the reason then we have the dumbest bunch of leaders that the fire fighting community has seen in a hell of a long time. Maybe they are the technicians that set behind desks and are good at ordering people to polish truck but ignorant at how to keep their men alive on the fire line.
Morrison and Wooten had this fire pegged right–they say exactly what you say–no one should be fighting a manzanita fire that has dehydrated for ten years of drought and yet so thick a bear has to wallow through it.
There is a lot of information out there and plenty of long experienced men that would have kept these men alive. I know you are one of them just by what you speak here. So I also know there are a lot of good leaders out there that can judge a fire and conditions and have that knowledge to keep their men alive.
I do hope some experienced men with understanding write this lady Govenor and explain that the need to put some millions toward training men and even the bosses like we had here how important it is to understand a wild land fire situation. Here we see that young, physically fit men were sacrificed while the fire gods later take accolades and brag about their efforts to save old people after they had let a situation go bad.
All the expensive memorials and donations and building of trails and millions spent to brag up the fire fighting efforts at Yarnell are for naught if the real issues of how the worst efforts in National Fire Fighting effort got to be that way. Human factors or not, those men had to be poorly trained to allow the bosses to put them in an obvious deadly situation when it was absolutely unnecessary. The men, including Steed went along like so many sheep not knowing rules that would have made them stop even Steed. If one thing Donut gave truth to it was how he had no respect or understanding of the rules that could have saved him. That had to be true for the whole crew or else he would have never said the rules were hill billy. It obvious that instead of praying and proselytizing at work those men would have been better off to leave it to church and taken that time to understand more about their occupation.
Common sense goes a long ways. But common sense comes from training and experience. That is what to many if not most of those men lacked. Dear governor and people of affluence that donate to the wild land fire fighter cause–quit tolerating the silver tongued ones that skirt the real problems in the fire fighting efforts. Give recognition to the voices of long experience and outside the debacle who do not see through the glass darkly, but are bringing light.
They scream of the errors and want them corrected. No more sacrifices please.
Thanks for the information Bob. Too many think they can not put out a budding fire. Here we believed that the Fire Departments would recognize the drastic proposition of allowing a fire to grow and take action. Now that we know their attitude you can bet citizens here will take action for the next lightening strike. I have a home here now–it is intact since the fire because it is a rock cabin, although the roof is tar shingles. Right within less than 100 ft. is a cabin that burned to the ground with only the foundation left. So I do intend to install a metal roof and keep the so called defensible space cleared. The small work shed did burn here as did some nice pine and oak trees that were about the property. Very fortunate the roof did not catch fire considering the wind and embers that were lighting up houses all around here. Just about the whole of Candy lane houses were burned to the ground and that was the edge of Glen Isla on the west end.
I think most of the citizens are afraid to take action since they think the fire department might fine them. But if they know it is legal then you can bet they will not rely on a wishy washy fire department. I won’t expect pay to help contain something that might cause deaths or burn the town nor would I want accolades for doing what my duty would be.
Next why would the local fire department be calling the stare as to whether they should be taking care of a lightening strike if they knew they could and would be reimbursed. Did they think that if they let it go they would have better chance of making big pay? I wonder!! Someone needs to answer those questions that was part of the show.
Thanks Bob, I will talk to Joy about posting posters concerning the law and the fact if a lackadaisical fire department does not do its job then the citizens can.
We do know common sense prevails and any fire gone wild requires professional wild land fire fighters to work and contain it.
We have been told by Yarnell ex-fire board member, Dr. Anderson, that there were some of the local fire department personnel that wanted to go up and put out the fire immediately after it started. There was dissention and I can only assume this was settled by superior influence. One guy we talked to that was an employee of the local fire department told us he actually quit after the dissention. I understand he later got reinstated. Joy can give the facts on that. Dr. Anderson said he was privy to the arguments.
Dr. Anderson by the way has written about the Yarnell Fire and had much inside information–he has some unhappy opinions on what went down. He is only one among the many who are unhappy with the way the fire was managed from the beginning. Investigators who are seeking the truth about the Yarnell Hill Fire debacle would do well to talk with Dr Leroy. Anderson.
WTKTT- It would indeed be a wise idea to inform locals that they can respond to a fire if there is no action within the first 30 min-60 min. of a fire. Immediate action by a few local citizens would have stopped the lightening strike at Yarnell. In fact, if I had known that the local fire department could not or would not (the latter is what I tend to believe after talking to Dr. Anderson) then it would be imperative that locals capable of containing the initial fire be at ready to take action. In the Yarnell case, 19 lives would have been saved along with those 74 mostly elderly that have died due to loss (suicides and depression as well as chemical NH3 gasses that did effect health)., not to mention half of Yarnell burned to the ground and the millions in tax dollar expendiute, and the grievance of loved ones and friend in all this. A nasty and terrible tragedy easily avoided in this instance for sure. Locals would have shamed the Fire Department they depend upon to protect their lives and homes had they known the careless attitude of the Yarnell Fire Department. In all fairness, the old Fire Chief has quit and a new one is in. How he would handle the fire situation is unknown. I do know he would not answer Joy or talk with her but perhaps we can get answers along that line by submitting written queries–do not hold your breath for the answers. To bad we cannot elicit a response to John Daugherty so his ideas could be aired to the fire fighting world and professionals we have on this site. Would he be brave enough to expose his ideas before the fire fighting professionals? Something to be seen.
Continuing on the thought, I have said had I known that there would be no response from fire fighters that could have put out the fire, I would be among the first to get up there and contain or help contain any lightening strike or initial fire eruption. I know Joy and many other locals would be ready and able to help stop a disaster in the making. Too many citizens are depending upon local fire fighters that are either too lazy or too restricted by state overseers to do the joy they are hired to do. This must be a world wide situation if Washington people are suffering the same problems of fires being allowed to develop into wild fire situations that are uncontrollable and reek the havoc we saw at the Yarnell Fire.
I have helped put out lightening strikes as as a young teen ager with my Dad in the Big Burro Mountains, and later as a cowboy working on a ranch in the same area. We never gave that forest saving work a second thought and in the dry conditions it was the right thing to do since in those days the Fire Rangers were 30 or so miles away in rough terrain and out of sight of the fire (not three miles and ten or fifteen minutes away as in Yarnell) . They too took a long time to respond to lightening fires, but distance and rough terrain slowed their response time–and I suspect political guffaw as well.
However, once a wild land fire has gone ape shit, forget it. Even the GMHS types would be advised to back off and let the Big Dog Eat.
Locals have every right to be angry and demand answers to why this local fire was not counted and emergency and taken care of immediately. This one will go down in history as one of the worst National Fire Tragedys ever in American History and yet we see the audacity of fire men taking awards as if they were part of a wonderful job at Yarnell. Shit and Bull shit smeared in our faces.
Forgive typos and words like using effect instead of affect health and expenditute ? But most of you are A students in College English Writing Class. I think I got one as well, but likely deserved a C. I stand corrected, no awards my way. At least what is left of Yarnell is still intact and the fire fighting efforts –how would you grade them? I would give the efforts a big fat F.
For those of you still interested in Human Factors on wildland fires, here’s a recent (January 4, 2106) Wildfire Magazine article hosted by the International Association of Wildland Fire on the subject.
It’s titled: “Common Denominators on Tragedy Fires – Updated for a New (Human) Fire Environment” and written by the Lewis and Clark Hot Shot Superintendent Matt Holmstrom, with good references.
http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/common-denominators-tragedy-fires-updated/
He starts with the original Common Denominators (Fatal and Near-Fatal Forest Fires – The Common Denominators) research by Carl Wilson (1977) then segues to Dick Mangan’s Common Denominators for WFF Fatalities.
Holmstrom refers to the YH Fire several times as well as many of the others we’re all familiar with.
His Human Factors subject headings include:
1) Years of experience and qualifications
2) Time of day of entrapments (1448 to 1642)
3) Wearing too many hats – Poorly defined leadership
4) Initial Attack to Extended Attack Transitions
5) Earlier close calls or near misses
6) Conflict on the fireline
7) Delivery of Firefighters – Return to Safety – Single Escape Route
8) Communication failures, Miscommunication, or No communication
He feels that the COMMUNICATION prong is the most important and involved in EVERY entrapment.
“As this is such a critical part of the safety culture that we have developed, it seems redundant and unnecessary to mention it here. Unfortunately, it is not only a common denominator, I feel it is the common denominator. It appears on nearly every tragedy incident. We have cemented this failure into place. These are not issues with radios, repeaters or cell phones. All too often, folks misunderstand, fail to brief or communicate with each other, or more simply do not talk. I challenge you to research a fatality and not find a communication error or lapse. I simply cannot. From assuming that people understood the plan, heard the weather, or got briefed, to more dramatic failures to brief, to coordinate, to listen and understand – communication gaps are our most common killer.”
Carl Wilson’s 1977 paper on Fatal and Near-Fatal Forest Fires – The Common Denominators
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2003_n_before/carl-wilson%281977%29.pdf
You’ll note that the ‘powers to be’ have dropped off number “5. Suppression tools such as helicopters or airtankers, can adversely modify fire behavior. (Helicopter and airtanker vortices have been known to cause flare-ups.)”
Take a look at Tables 3 and 4 that list the near misses and close calls, the “near-fatal fires.”
A lot of good info here took a little time to go thru. THANKS
Definitely check out the 1959 Decker Fire paper by Julian Lee (link posted below).
AMAZING! He did a fantastic job researching and interviewing folks and a fantastic job writing.
As I was reading it, I felt like I was actually there! Crazy fire weather and insane fire behavior.
Definitely well worth reading.
The alleged ‘official report’ is kinda bogus and I think it actually came from one of the S-course scenarios.
RTS Yes we did see observer copters causing some flare ups in the Yarnell incident. One reason I told Joy this was a prescribed burn. Later we were told no– the flare ups were accidental, not purposeful.
A good list there–Poor observance of the 10 and 18 might be added since the GMHS crew went down and attempted to flank a fire that actually turned and came right at them.
Reply to Sonny post on January 29, 2016 at 5:08 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> RTS Yes we did see observer copters causing some flare
>> ups in the Yarnell incident. One reason I told Joy this was
>> a prescribed burn. Later we were told no– the flare ups
>> were accidental, not purposeful.
Sonny… just curious. Told by WHO ( that the flare-ups were accidental )?
WHO was it that actually said that to you ( and Joy )?
I can via cell in phnx Va er answer the question… Mike Dudley set up a phone conference with tom Zimmerman Rachel Wilson Brent the meteorologist and if u remember that conference of names I listed early on that was a concerned question to hikers was the yellow n white helicopter and locations so that is who sonny referred to and it seems investigative media was his last action before his aneurysm moment so that tells me where he was n when
Reply to joy a collura post on
January 30, 2016 at 1:51 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> I can via cell in phnx Va er answer the question…
>> Mike Dudley set up a phone conference with tom
>> Zimmerman Rachel Wilson Brent the meteorologist
>> and if u remember that conference of names I
>> listed early on that was a concerned question to hikers
>> was the yellow n white helicopter and locations so
>> that is who sonny referred to
Thank you, Joy.
Yes… I remember you talking about this ‘teleconference’ between you and Sonny and some of the SAIT investigators… but I thought they were only interested in hearing about the ‘route’ that you and Sonny took to leave the area that day.
I didn’t know that the ‘flare ups’ being caused by the yellow/white BLM N14HX Helicopter that you and Sonny both witnessed on Sunday was also part of that ‘conversation’ with the SAIT.
Pretty interesting, considering that Russ Shumate himself has testified that on Saturday, the fire ‘flared up’ and ‘escaped’ over the two-track at the same moment the same helicopter was ‘hovering’ over that same location and delivering ‘bladder bags’.
Here’s a longer ‘Reply’ up above, and a continuance of this thread…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-324534
Sonny,
You posted: “since the GMHS crew went down and attempted to flank a fire that actually turned and came right at them.”
Do you mean OUTFLANK a fire?
They flanked the fire edge that morning without any issues other than the moron AA dumping water on their burnout operations.
They were NOT building fireline when they were headed down to the Death Bowl. Allegedly, they were headed down to/toward the BSR for structure protection.
So, in that sense they were somewhat trying to outflank the fire as they headed straight down into it .
They were headed to the BSR to do structure protection. They were “going” to protect their safety zone.
Nope. Don’t think so.
Calvin,
They were “going” to protect their safety zone.
WTF does that mean?
You either have a Safety Zone or you don’t.
There’s no such thing as saving a Safety Zone.
Besides, they had a Safety Zone in the black as should have stayed there.
Calvin,
You posted: “They were headed to the BSR to do structure protection. They were “going” to protect their safety zone.”
WTF? Are you kidding me? You base this on your numerous years of WFF experience, I take it.
Since when do we “protect” a Safety Zone? The Safety Zone is what protects you. Either you have a Safety one or you don’t.
There’s NO such thing as protecting a Safety Zone.
CORRECTION
Should read: Either you have a Safety Zone or you don’t.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
January 30, 2016 at 9:58 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There’s NO such thing as protecting a Safety Zone.
Agree.
And there is also ‘no such thing’ as using an ‘escape route’ to LEAVE a totally valid ‘Safety Zone’, either… but that is exactly what Eric Marsh himself said they were doing at 4:13 PM when responding to some mysterious person ( still unknown ) asking “Granite Mountain… wuz your status rat now?”.
From +52 seconds into Panebaker Air Study video…
20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
———————————————————
+0:52 ( 1613.41 / 4:13.31 PM )
(Eric Marsh): Well the guys… uh… Granite… is makin’ their way out the exact escape route from this mornin’… an’ it heads… ah… (pause) SOUTH. ( slight pause ) mid-slope, cuttin’ over.
———————————————————
Notice that Eric Marsh used the word ‘out’.
In other words… he KNEW they were “makin’ their way OUT” of the totally valid ‘Safety Zone’ they HAD been in.
RTs said
They were NOT building fireline when they were headed down to the Death Bowl. Allegedly, they were headed down to/toward the BSR for structure protection
And then I said
They were headed to the BSR to do structure protection. They were “going” to protect their safety zone.
Nope. Don’t think so
So RTS it was YOU who said the GMH were going to/toward the BSR for structure protection. I was only disagreeing with that assessment.
Sorry I didn’t make it clear.
Calvin,
You made yourself pretty clear. I was questioning your logic to “protect” a Safety Zone and what you based that on.
RTS.
I do not believe for one second that the GMH were headed to the BSR to do Structure protection.
But obviously you do.
I think they were headed down to help establish line. Other/all(?) resources seemed to be coming south for the same reason. And we hear OPS tell Eric air support ASAP, The dozer boss was actively scouting for a route to push a dozer line.
What am I missing?
Calvin,
I too do NOT believe that the GMHS was heading to the BSR to do structure protection at the actual BSR because it didn’t need it.
I believe there was some kind of ‘plan’ between STSP Cordes and Division Alpha Marsh to head to the BSR and THEN for structure protection elsewhere. Cordes asked TFLD(T) Esquibel to head to the BSR to tie in with/meet the GMHS coming down.
Coming down for what? Structure protection somewhere.
If that’s not good enough for you, then ….
Did I use the term incorrectly RTS? There was a post with link early on about the Australian situation similar to what went on here that also killed and injured a number of wild land fire fighters. That was an excellent video and had information that I thought every wild land fire fighter out to know. Add to that civilians that are apt to encounter wild land fires.
I was thinking you were the one posted that–it was badly needed information and might have saved the GMHS if they had seen it. You are on the right path and I hope more like you enter the wild land fire fighting profession. I know you will keep your men safe.
Sad thing on this fire was that I was at the very spot they went down with Joy. First off I would have never been there except Joy was going on her own at 3:30 am even against my protests to get to the fire edge and see if it was going to threaten her home and city of Congress. Despite me telling her there is sparse vegetation, many reasons it would never make it down the west side she is stubborn and is headed out. I knew it best I went along.
At about 11:30 and even before with minimal winds behind the fire it had eaten up a mountain side in less than 14 minutes. I had Joy time it. It was a no brainer to see that there was no way men on the ground could do anything to hinder the fire at that point. It was a no brainer that the wind could change any moment and violently with storms in the distance. “The only thing to do was find a safe zone away from the fire. That fire with wind behind it can move way quicker than it does with no wind and obviously up a mountain the drafts will drive it even faster. That 14 minutes can easily be changed to 4 minutes or less in a distance of the mile or so distance we were watching the Big Dog Eat. Still stubborn, Joy wanted to drop off that steep, almost bluff down into that dense manzanita with that fire that close. Fortunately I had the mind to go back and retrieve her from the very spot they went down. She is known as the Desert Walker but grew up in Phoenix. Not much to learning about the out door life there, but she has learned plenty sense. Still she did not understand the nature of wild fires and how close she was to death.
I suppose that is what angers me so much about this fire. Not much attention to what really happened is reported except at this site. The people here are demanding answers and screaming at the horrible way this fire was handled. These men are like yourself, long experienced and wise at wild land fire fighting. They did and will keep themselves and their men alive by proper action and wisdom of how a fire can react. They would know better than to try to out flank a fire under the conditions we saw on June 30, 2013.
Yes I do express anger because I see that not much is being done to help the heroes that fight wild land fires stay alive. By patting themselves on the back for a job not well done and painting over a pathetic job of fire fighting example the bosses and investigators have done great disservice to their fellow wild land fire fighters. Perhaps they do not feel accountable–but in many ways they will be for future deaths.
Here a true picture of the errors that caused 19 deaths is the only proper thing to present to the world. These bosses should be admitting that the GMHS crew was a huge red flag expressing the need for training men how to stay alive, why and how the rules, which have developed over time and experience, will keep people alive.
Smooth talk does nothing for the fire fighting profession. However, I think the politicians do so much of it, they only want to hear these good accounts that are nothing but recycled garbage as far as the Yarnell Hill Wild Land Fire tragedy is generally publicized.
Sonny,
I’m not sure what term you are referring to above that you may have used incorrectly, so let me know
I think the video you are asking about is the Australian DEAD-MAN ZONE training video regarding unburned fuel between you and the fire (Watch Out Number 11) and Attempting a Frontal Assault (Watch Out Number 10).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMGuiv2SYeg
I’ll include the link to a research paper on the subject below.
Here’s a link to The DEAD-MAN ZONE: a neglected area of firefighter safety research paper by Phil Cheney, Jim Gould, and Lachie McCaw.
http://www.southern.conder-act.com/documents/Dead%20man%20zone.pdf
The summary: “Firefighters engaged in parallel or indirect attack are working in a “dead-man zone” if they do not appreciate the time and space required to find a safe refuge. In this zone, if the wind direction changes, the fire can advance so rapidly that the firefighters have very little time to seek refuge in the burnt area behind a suppressed portion of line, or egress elsewhere, before the fire overwhelms them. We discuss three bushfire incidents in Australia where firefighters were trapped and killed, and the development of fire spread in forest fuels from a line start. A table illustrating the distance that a line fire can travel in five minutes under different fire danger conditions is presented. Factors that affect the speed of the firefighter’s reaction to changed circumstances, and safe work practices, are discussed.”
The authors examine three separate case studies that are also depicted in the YouTube video.
In their “Recognising changes in fire behavior” section (they use “S” instead of “Z”) they talk about the working distance from a fire, becoming aware of the danger, being alerted to that danger, and then reaction time is in many cases very narrow, in the span of just a few minutes, WAY TOO CLOSE!
“If firefighters working more than a few metres from an extended line of fire do not appreciate the speed that a fire can travel then they will get little warning if the fire moves away on a broad front when there is a change of wind direction. If they wait until they see the flames their escape time may be very short indeed.”
Of note here, is the (fact) suggestion that there were NO designated Lookouts on these fires, i.e. “If you wait until you see the flames ….”
A designated Lookout would have been able to warn these FF in plenty of time because he would have seen the wind change and increase and the increased fire behavior.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH – SURVIVALIST
On Brendan McDonough’s PUBLIC Facebook page, he is still listing his occupation as…
‘PUBLIC FIGURE’.
But on his new BIO PAGE at the Camillus Knives company, it lists his occupation as…
‘SURVIVALIST’.
Just 48 hours ago… he published a photo of himself and most of the other ‘Camillus Knives Pro Staff’ posing for the camera at the ‘Camillus Knives’ booth at the ‘Shot Show’ in Las Vegas just this past weekend…
https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough/photos/a.534077883425741.1073741829.463942307105966/563523523814510/?type=3&theater
Photo Caption: Photo posted by Brendan McDonough, January 24, 2016.
———————————————————————————–
Amazing time at shot show with Camillus knives and pro staff.
Couldn’t of asked for a better tribe to be apart of.
Big things to come in 2016. God bless
————————————————————————————
“SHOT Show” stands for: “Shooting, Hunting and Outdoor Trade” ( SHOT ) Show.
“NSSF” stands for “National Shooting Sports Foundation”.
The NSSF SHOT Show was a 4 day event just held from 19th January to the 22nd January 2016 at the Sands Expo & Convention Center in Las Vegas, United States Of America. This event showcases product from Industrial Products, Sporting Goods, Firearms, Toys & Games, Business Services industries.
Brendan also posted a ‘snapshot’ of his new Camillus Knives Pro-Staff BIO on his PUBLIC Twitter feed, which is here…
https://twitter.com/bmcdonough20
——————————————————————
Posted by Brendan McDonough, January 13, 2016
Starting 2016 off right with ‘CamillusBrand’ Pro Staff
PHOTO: Snapshot of the Camillus Knife Company
Pro Staff page which now includes a photo and a
BIO of Brendan McDonough.
——————————————————————
The photograph he is using for his Camillus Knives company BIO shows him in his Granite Mountain Helmet and work gear, out on the fireline.
On the Camillus Knives Website”
Our PRO STAFF…
http://www.camillusknives.com/About/Camillus+Pro+Staff/Camillus+Pro+Staff/12649
Each ‘prostaff’ member is shown with his own ‘Read More’ box, complete with an accompanying ‘badass’ pose/photo…
———————————————————
Les Stroud – Star of Survivorman, Musician, Author and Filmmaker
Jared Ogden – Navy Seal
Grady Powell – Green Beret
Bo Reichenbach – Navy SEAL
John Nores Jr. – SOF & Hunter
Luke Randall – Hunter
Brendan McDonough – Survivalist
Kyle McCleery – Adventurer
Ryan Breitkreutz – Adventurer
Jim Kinsey – Marine, Executive Producer & Hunter
Tyler Freel – Hunter
———————————————————
Clicking on Brendan’s photo ( in his Granite Mountain Helmet and work gear ) goes to here…
http://www.acmeunited.tv/camillus/bio/bio-brendan.html
—————————————————————————————
Camillus Knives – Pro Staff – Brendan McDonough – Survivalist
Brendan McDonough grew up in Prescott AZ, where the desert met the wilderness and became a Wildland firefighter in
2011. As a child, he hiked the mountains of Prescott National Forest and soon realized his true calling: to be a Wildland Firefighter.
As a firefigher, his job was to save lives, protect property, and preserve the forest.
He has fought some of the most historical and devastating fires our country has seen.
McDonough’s world changed June 30th 2013 when tragedy struck and 19 of his brothers were killed by the Yarnell Hill Fire.
—————————————————————————————-
Survivalist?
Give me a break.
I was going to write alot but GIVE ME A BREAK is enough.
I don’t know…just hard to bring togetherness thoughts on a person who smiles CHEEZY with the PREZ and I guess God Bless but I have been so sad by Donut since his first ABC news piece—
I shake my head with understanding yet disappointed-
There was some public figure who felt I am a nothing.
That person is right, I am.
I am nothing.
I just wanted to let you know you were right.
You probably already knew that. I did too. I knew I was nothing the day I was born.
However, due to Sonny I became a person who had photos from that weekend and THAT IS SOMETHING…
and PLEASE …I BEG OF YOU ALL who have the MISSING ELEMENTS to share because YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO MATTERS! You are EVERYTHING!
Besides admitting I am nothing — I never felt soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo deeply broken in my entire life.
I can’t understand the people who can help bring clarity choose not too-
I do not understand it- sorry.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 26, 2016 at 11:04 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Survivalist?
>>
>> Give me a break.
I honestly don’t think it was Donut’s idea to call himself that on his shiny new ‘Camillus Knives Pro Staff BIO page’.
The folks at Camillus only have one objective.
SELL MORE KNIVES!
When it came time to do Brendan’s BIO page… and he told them his current occupation is ( according to his Facebook page ) “PUBLIC FIGURE”… I don’t think the Camillus Knives PR people thought that was ‘edgy’ enough ( excuse the pun ).
Hey!… we have it!… how about ‘SURVIVALIST’!
What bothers me more is their choice to actually SHOW him ‘at work’ in his Granite Mountain Hotshots helmet and work gear… out on the fireline at some fire that he worked while with Granite Mountain.
The ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ organization no longer exists ( as either a ‘brand’ name or a municipal organization )… and I don’t think the previous ‘owners’ of that ‘brand name’ ( The City of Prescott ) and its LOGOS are going to send any nasty-grams to Brendan about using that name, or those LOGOS, just to help SELL KNIVES…
…but it still strikes me as inappropriate.
Seems to me if they just wanted Brendan to have the same kind of ‘dangerous/edgy’ look that the other guys on that ‘ProStaff’ do… and to project some kind of SURVIVALIST image to help Brendan help them sell the knives… they could have achieved that WITHOUT resorting to the actual ‘Granite Mountain’ getup.
YOU SAID:
I honestly don’t think it was Donut’s idea to call himself that on his shiny new ‘Camillus Knives Pro Staff BIO page’.
MY REPLY:
Understood. Even with that knowledge …still… “it’s a bullshit”
With Sonny doing his own life thing away from me- I am a “fire ball gonna go straight to the folks- Que Sera, Sera…You thought that weekend was a BLAZE…
what will be…will be…Que Sera, Sera…I am hurt and broken too deep by this game of ads and books and all the horse shit.
MY NEW SAYING IN REGARDS TO YHF:
“it’s a bullshit,”
sing it—Bangladeshi Band.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n962Y4_cmKw
I will show them ADS-
sell knives- “it’s a bullshit”
Wait until I fill those local bulletin boards up again-
I aint’ stopping…I am going to work late nights and day time hikes…and I don’t care if it does not happen SUPERFAST- I am taking the job locally to dig for more local accounts—
I won’t give up on those kids who in a short few years will be young adults—they will know this gal looked under every stone for all affected—
WTKTT–Do we know the exact time Donut left the small hill below the grader. There should have been communication from Donut via radio or cell phone mayday that the direction of the fire had changed violently endangering his position and the crew. Radio transmission from Donut likely would not go well through the ridge that was in front of him and between his position and where the GMHS crew were located. I think those type radios do not work unless in direct line without obstructions such as hills and buildings. However I am certain that lookouts are instructed that when radios do not work use cell phones. Joy was using a cell phone in close proximity to where he was located and was able to talk to her Mom in Delaware post haste.
The question of Survivalist–That has to be true for Donut. He has survived the greatest tragedy in wild land fire fighting history as well as other incidents in his life. I think he did time and that also was a survivalist situation. I am certain there are many others. But in all truth the meaning of survivalist is somewhat stretched with his situation at Yarnell Hill. I think a better word would be unadulterated luck. Looking at his position and where he was intending to deploy he most certainly would have perished. His survival instincts were totally worthless in the Yarnell Fire decision. With good fortune, Brian Frisby happened to be in there on a quad and had the quad died they both would have perished. They could not have outrun the fire on foot from where Donut was picked up.
I am surprised that Donut did not win the lottery with his luck. But luck eventually runs out for those spinning the cylinder. Perhaps Donut will get honest some day and say that he was a very inexperienced wild land fire fighter with a bad attitude. To admit that would be a help to future fighters that want to belittle the 10 and 18. Because he withheld crucial information he knew concerning the deaths of his fellows makes him no hero in my view. Many of the loved ones feel the same way.. We will never know when and if his testimony can ever be trusted and we can only hope that others that have withheld their knowledge come forward who have more integrity.
I am enjoying a coffee out of a 50 cent coffee pot I got at the flee market. Some lady there was getting rid of a nice little stainless steel electric pot for a half dollar. She threw in an electric iron and then Joy come up with a five dollar vacuum. But that coffee pot makes excellent coffee. I call it good cookie cutter survival since it is so close to good old cowboy campfire coffee where you just throw the grounds in on top of boiling water. I felt so good about it we gave poor old Leo an extra five before we left. We had given him $3 earlier so he could buy a beer and by the end of the flea market he was lying on his cot under a tree near the rail road track. See Leo is a small man who came over as a Bracero and with many long years of working the fields and now in his 50’s ran into hard times with a bad back and limp and now a hole in his throat where he breaths. Yet he lives completely out doors near a railroad track and the locals, mostly Mexican Farm Workers, understand what true survival and hard work means. Well if you get to Aguila, Arizona and stop at Woody’s for gas or snacks don’t forget Leo–if he is not hanging around the edge of the store you will find him just a hundred feet or so between the back of the station and the railroad track on his cot.
Now about the serious thing of the retardant dumps. I am highly grateful to WTKTT for looking into this. I had written earlier about several of those chemicals eluted that are so dangerous that only 25ppm can create maladies such as the cancer that WTKTT mentions in 21 chemicals. The main thing related to the main ingredient is respiratory problems. Ammonium nitrate with a bit of diesel or other gas or oils becomes explosive. Dad used to buy the common fertilizer by a 100 pound sack and mix a gallon of diesel to it to make usable explosive for his mines. It takes a stick of dynamite to set it off but it is a cheap way of mining compared to buying straight dynamite that cost maybe ten times that of a cheap sack of fertilizer and a gallon of fuel. These days the government has caused the ammonium nitrate to be tainted where it won’t be explosive if mixed with fuel oil. We have cut off that cheap source to small miners pretty much and perhaps terrorists. I suspect they will be using nuclear devices since they have much more destructive force.
But concerning the ammonia, it is the major gas released from the orange slurry dumped as fire retardant since 90-95% of that stuff is ammonium sulfates and nitrates. The gas is nitrogen one part and oxygen three parts. It is so reactive to lung tissue that it immediately hooks to the cells of the lungs and kills them. The more you inhale ammonium gas the more cells you loose. These are cells that never regenerate. But we all know that you can donate a lung and do pretty good if both lungs are in good working order. However if you are a smoker or already have depleted lungs then it is not advisable to donate a lung.
For example, Joy’s Dad had only on lung–one had been removed for his chain smoking result of cancer on that lung. Still he was getting around pretty well, still smoking and continuing on with life. However the depleted oxygen with one lung and continued smoking led to other diseases that spelled his eventual death. Well that I should say is still being investigated since he had told Joy he believed he was being poisoned. Either way his health was being compromised by the lack of healthy lung tissue and it is a fact that cancer thrives in lack of oxygen as does heart disease.
Then we consider the unknown chemicals in the retardant as a secondary issue concerning the detriment to health. We cannot know what they are since those are trade secret issues. Trade Secret? What the hell when the forest service only buys from certain companies and what the hell is so secret about shit that is harming people’s health. People who breath this crap dumped on their homes ought to have the knowledge of what they are getting into their lungs and then tainting their body tissues. Yes these companies make billions and it is a monopoly that they want to keep to themselves. But they are so wealthy and able to wine and dine the politicos so well that they maintain control and hide their poisons so that the general public continues unaware.
In the case of retardants it is the wild land fighters and smoke jumpers that get ample doses to destroy lung tissue and who knows what other chemical side effects and diseases. There has been no long time study on this agent orange retardant. And if you loose the equivalent of one lung before you die you probably will never know it happened. And if it is heart disease or cancer that kills you in the long run, can you know if it were all the retardant you experienced breathing?
Let me tell you that I will likely look like Cat Balloo after my next nose surgery. I know it is because of long term effects of Uranium mining. Yet my ignorance from those days has been alleviated by a little education and more by the experience of having more than 20 cancers removed from my body. including a melanoma on the nose—something none of my three siblings have had to deal with. Common sense will point to the high grade Uranium I had to deal with and that few of the smokers from my uranium mining days are alive (carbon traps the uranium and plutonium atoms in the lungs and one plutonium atom is all it takes to start the cancer growth).
So yes the retardant is dangerous–thousands of dead fish ought to be enough to make it suspect but the facts are there if you look at them.
‘Thank you John Dougherty–finally got the name right. John will save many lives for his work at exposing these chemicals and other environmental issues that affect us all. The retardant poison is related to us all–certainly people do not seem to be concerned with all the dead aquatic life that has been destroyed by this agent orange slurry called inert fire retardant–yet wake up–thousands of dead fish ought to move a few dead brain cells.
Sonny,
McDonough left his lookout post below by the grader between 1550 and 1555 depending on which report you read.
The GMHS, in their Safety Zone, were in NO danger whatsoever from the wind shift and increased fire behavior. They should have stayed put.
McDonough was definitely in harm’s way and had to get out of where he was.
As far as radio communications, he and the GMHS were ‘ line of sight’ from where his lookout post was and there would have been no communications problems with each other on TAC.
Reply to Robert the Second post on January 28, 2016 at 3:52 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> McDonough left his lookout post below by the grader
>> between 1550 and 1555 depending on which report you read.
Absolutely not true.
We’ve been over this many times.
Frisby already had Brendan in the UTV Ranger and had already asked Brown to round up some drivers for the GM vehicles by 1541 ( 3:41 PM ).
Stay tuned for a longer ‘Reply’ with the real ‘timeline’ in it.
If GMHS were in the black they would have been just above Donut’s position and in better view than Donut of the fire advance. They would have known that Donut was in danger and needed to leave his post. They would have quickly warned Donut even before he realized he needed to abandon post. So more than likely they were already out of sight of Donut somewhere on the two track–likely at the point where they dropped off into Death Basin. Whether Donut or anyone else warned the GMHS that the wind had changed has not been said as far as we know–correct? Still, if they were in the area near the drop down point they might not have been able to discern the wind change. When I went to the top from where they dropped off I could already feel a light wind change—and when I went back down to retrieve Joy who was without her boots and sitting at the drop off point no wind could be felt.
It would be interesting to know if Donut had any communication with the crew above about the reversal of the wind and fire which would have been driving that wild fire directly at the GMHS even before they dropped down.
One thing there is always a calm before a storm. In my experience as a young man living on the desert west of Lordsburg, NM thunderstorms in the distance would always give a 15 to 20 minute period of calm. In the early sixties we would see these storms coming–there usually from the north east. There would be a huge barrel of dust miles across and high in the sky rolling across the alkali flat coming over the Portillo range. We knew we had those few minutes to get ourselves prepared for the sand blast headed our way. I can remember Mom dashing to get clothes off the line and us changing the direction of windshields. Those dust storms would last as long as a few hours before a shower would show up to settle things down. If your windshield was pointed into the wind you would get a nice sand blasting job. If you tried to stay in the vehicle the dust would eventually get so thick you found yourself getting out into the sand storm to get behind a barricade or wall to break the wind. Those winds were fierce and sometimes it was hard to stand correctly or even ten feet in front of you. Once our place was plowed under it got worse since sometimes we would have to retrieve our tent, clothes, blankets, buckets and pans that had blown away with the wind. Those things after were completely filled with sand and dust sometimes hundreds of yards from the camp site. I had on occasions to turn my head from side to side to dump sand out of my ears. So when I saw those soldiers working through sandstorms I knew what they were enduring. And that calm on the mountain gave me the same erie feeling of having lived through those wind changes.
To this day, I just do not understand why there was not ample warning given to the GMHS. If there had been then the bosses would be gloating over their warnings. But instead we are told the baloney that they had lost total contact with the GMHS and something about radio contact problems. Sort of a weak excuse since the two track where they were at has a direct inline view to the Ranch House Café and Helms can be seen from right there by the café where the first memorial spot was. Then we had plenty of cell phones clicking pictures and talks going back and forth between husbands and wives and friends. Hopefully some of them will fill us in, and it makes sense they have told plenty to some of the fire fighters and friends near them.
Great that WTKTT is able to furnish the real time line.
Reply to Sonny post on January 28, 2016 at 10:29 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> If GMHS were in the black they would have been just
>> above Donut’s position and in better view than Donut
>> of the fire advance. They would have known that Donut
>> was in danger and needed to leave his post.
Sonny… you’ve caught me with limited time to answer your ( GOOD ) questions… but the bottom line here is that at NO TIME did either Brendan or Jesse Steed really seem to think there was any great DANGER.
The decision for Brendan to leave his lookout mound was a MUTUAL decision made between Steed and Brendan, just after Byron Kimball finished his weather advisory at 3:31 PM.
Brendan did not HEAR this advisory of ‘180 degree wind shifts coming’ in real time. Steed had to call Brendan and tell him what Byron had just said.
It was during that conversation between Steed and Brendan ( circa 3:34 PM ) that Steed and Brendan decided ( together, according to Brendan’s ADOSH interviews ) that it was time for Brendan to leave that lookout position.
At NO TIME does Brendan actually say he felt the fire was ‘threatening him’ at the time he and Steed decided he needed to get out of there.
So there was no ’emergency’, according to Brendan.
More on this, later.
But of course… in just a few minutes after deciding to leave his lookout mound… the situation DID become ‘life threatening’.
The fire started kicking into high gear WHILE Brendan was ‘walking down’ from his lookout mound.
It was the SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself
who said ( in PUBLIC )…
————————————————————————
I will also say… that if he ( Brian Frisby ) had not come around the corner at the time that he did… the lookout ( Brendan McDonough ) woulda been the first fatality. Guaranteed.
There was NO place for that lookout to have safely deployed, and he was WAY too close when he decided to bail out from where the fire was.
————————————————————————-
Reply to WTKTT about the Helicopter fanning. That would have been a conversation with Wayne Niel, Holley, and Dr. Ted Putnam. They were the ones that believed any fanning of the fire by helicopter would have been accidental or due to the helitac crew dropping off supplies near the fire. The bosses and investigators all avoided any indication that helicopters could have anything to do with fanning or spreading the fire.
This is a link to a 12 January 2016, Wildfire Today article titled “Another look at the fatal Decker Fire of 1959.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/01/12/another-look-at-the-fatal-decker-fire-of-1959/
Within the second paragraph are the links to the ‘official report’ and a recently released 27-page report/story/analysis by former El Cariso Hot Shot Julian Lee (63- 66). Very good read.
The Decker Fire started along the Ortega Highway at about 6:00 p.m. on Saturday, August 8, 1959. There are very strong, local winds in this Elsinore Front country that blow have what is referred to as a downslope-upslope wind reversal, depending on the time of day.
Watch Out Number 4 – “Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior.”
But these were local WFF familiar with the area and the weather.
There were three (3) separate burnovers that resulted in six (6) fatalities and multiple burn injuries.
There were only 13 Watch Out Situations back then and “Tankers” refers to fire engines,
This is definitely worth reading. There are very descriptive excerpts regarding the fire weather and the ensuing fire behavior.
Try this one http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/Decker_Fire_Lee-report.pdf
Reply to Sonny post on January 21, 2016 at 11:37 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> I forgot to mention that I am still working on the secret *8-16% hidden and secret
>> chemicals in that concoction LC95A agent deadly retardant. You can bet it is hidden
>> under trade secret for a reason. The companies that manufacture this, now in Israel
>> but before Monsanto do not want you to know what they are dumping on you and
>> the FS gives a shit less on letting you know its hazards.
In the video that Marti recently found of one of the ‘briefings’ on the 2014 ‘Assayii Lake Fire’ on Navajo land… we see that very thing happening.
That’s the video that shows ASGS Dan Sullivan addressing the public and the Navajo Nation representatives at about +6:27 into the video.
It’s the video that Bryan Smith saw and has now positively identified Dan Sullivan as the one who saved him and his cousin Peal Moor on June 30, 2013… and NOT Gary Cordes.
A little after Dan Sullivan and some other ‘team’ members speak in that video, SW Incident Management Team 3 Liason Ben Fisk then asks for ‘any questions’. from the audience.
The ‘audience’ was filled with many Tribal Elders on the Navajo Nation Tribal Council, including their own ‘Environmental Protection’ people.
The FIRST question from one of the audience members was about all the ‘fire retardant’ they were dropping… and what are the HEALTH RISKS to the Navajo people and their land?
SWIMT Liason Ben Fisk basically ‘blew him off’ and said…
“It’s all been researched. Nothing to worry about”.
That ‘Assayii Lake Fire’ briefing video is here…
PUBLIC YouTube Video
Day 7 – Assayii Lake Fire “largest” fire on Navajo Reservation
Published: June 20, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dKzc3c7L0I
** ASSAYII LAKE FIRE – DAY 7 – BRIEFING VIDEO
Starts with SW Incident Management Team 3 – Liason – Ben Fisk
Then opens with an update from Operations Chief Todd Abel.
Then Dan Sullivan speaks at about +6:27.
Then some others speak.
Then Roy Hall speaks and closes out the ‘team presentation’.
Then it was time for questions… and the FIRST one was about the FIRE RETARDANT.
NOTE: The reference to ‘SDS’ in the exchange that follows is referring to official ‘Safety Data Sheets’. ‘Safety Data Sheets’ contain information on the properties and potential hazards ( health, fire, reactivity, and environmental ) of chemicals, drugs, and other toxic substances. The UCSF Office of Environmental Health and Safety is the central repository of Safety Data Sheets, but Federal Law also says that the manufacturer of any substance is supposed to supply the SDS for any product they make ‘on demand’.
—————————————————————
At +18:44 into the video…
( Ben Fisk ): Okay… that’s the… uh… that’s the end of the presentation from the team. Um… are there any final questions for the team that we can answer for ya this morning?
( Audience member in the front row raises his hand )…
( Ben Fisk ): Yes sir?
( Audience Member ): I KNOW we’re gonna get questions about the fire retardant.
Is there any HEALTH… or… things like that… or the… uh… SDS on those… er… or what?
( Ben Fisk ): That’s… that’s all been researched and covered, and there are NO issues there.
( Audience Member ): Oh. Okay.
—————————————————————
So when Ben Fisk says “that’s all been researched”… he is referring to the report the U.S. Forestry Service was legally FORCED to do by a Judge for the EPA, after people realized that they’d been dropping this retardant for YEARS without ever having done any realistic Human Health or Environmental impact studies.
As ordered by the JUDGE… U.S. Forestry had to contract with a (supposedly) independent research firm to get this done. They chose ‘Labat-Anderson’ laboratories… a well known research firm that does LOTS of these ‘independent research’ reports for the U.S. Government.
That ‘famous’ report is here…
“Human Health Risk Assessment: Wildland Fire-Fighting Chemicals.”
Labat-Anderson Incorporated for U.S. Forest Service,
Missoula Technology and Development Center, January 22, 2003 (with March 6, 2003 revisions).
http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/fire/wfcs/documents/HHRA_pub_2003.pdf
From that document…
————————————————————-
There are 21 chemical ingredients in products on the Qualified Products List that
meet one or more of the criteria of carcinogenicity, low LD50s, or reportability to EPA
and/or OSHA. Many of these chemicals are contained in more than one formulation.
NO toxicity data were available for SEVERAL individual ingredients.
Therefore, RISKS from THESE ingredients were NOT EVALUATED.
Cancer slope factors were UNAVAILABLE for SEVERAL chemicals that were identified as
POTENTIAL CARCINOGENS.
Therefore, CANCER RISKS from THESE CHEMICALS could NOT be quantified.
————————————————————-
So even after identifying 21 known CARCINOGENS in the retardant products included
in the study… they didn’t even ‘evaluate’ a number of them just because they said the
‘Cancer slope factors’ for a number of them were simply ‘unavailable’.
The report does NOT say WHY this data was ‘unavailable’ ( to Labat-Anderson Labs ).
They also clearly stated that they couldn’t even obtain the ‘toxicity data’ for ‘several individual
ingredients’ of the retardants being tested.
So even WITHOUT this CRITICAL information… they went ahead with their “Human Health
Risk Assessment” study… and ‘concluded’ ( in the end ) that they could find “No significant
Human Health Risk”.
The report contains details about how they went about their ‘testing’ ( even without having
ALL the data they needed )… and that is also worth a read.
It’s almost laughable.
Their ‘test criteria’ for ‘human exposure’ was basically NON-AGE specific, and just assumed
an exposure rate of how long it might take to wash off a house that had retardant dropped on it.
So THIS is now STILL the famous REPORT that U.S. and State level FORESTRY people
are referring to when they say things like…
( Ben Fisk ): That’s… that’s all been researched and covered, and there are NO issues there.
Unbelievable.
Whoops. Typo up above.
I misspelled Pearl Moore’s name.
Sentence above should have read like this…
——————————————————-
It’s the video that Bryan Smith saw and has now positively identified Dan Sullivan as the one who saved him and his cousin Pearl Moore on June 30, 2013… and NOT Gary Cordes.
——————————————————-
Pearl Moore ( Rest in Peace ).
The WFF world has worked for most of their service with FireTrol and FosCheck
So I can only speak about what I know. Many of my friends in their late 60’s and early to late 70’s all worked in the fire setting with numerous loads of retardant drops being put on them or next to them and cut line thru said drops both wet and dry.
Based on my personal knowledge which includes supervising a Tanker Base
with employees I still am in contact with today ( they were at the base from 1973 to 1984 ).
And my time along with others on the Fire line I and they were exposed to direct drops and estimated 100 times in their carrier and mine. To my knowledge and my health none have any respiratory problems some have died do to Smoking problems but not respiratory problems from any other causes.
I my self quit smoking at 40 and have no lung problems what so ever
I do have some hart problems caused by Hardening of the Arteries from both smoking and smoke inhalation the normal FF problems. No Cancers so far.
So I was evidently unaffected by any thing concerned with Foscheck or Firetrol .
I would consider my exposure rate extremely higher than the average citizen.
It is concerning the high rate of death in Yarnell but what were the causes and the average age in that area could as well be retirement age and older.
I think there are other factors at work here based solely on my own personnel health and knowledge of others health who have all had Higher exposures than the citizens of Yarnell.
Even the results of the tests showed all FF’s with less than one/ one hundredth of a chance of any reaction to the Retardant wet or dry. Or one in one million. .
Would it be toxic to older Americans ????? I do not know but they used a 75 age limit with no change or maybe they did not evaluate the age info.
Toxicity to the lungs should affect all age groups with varying afflictions That dose not seem to be the case.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 26, 2016 at 10:24 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> So I was evidently unaffected by any thing concerned
>> with Foscheck or Firetrol .
That’s good. I hope that remains the case.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It is concerning the high rate of death in Yarnell but what
>> were the causes and the average age in that area could
>> as well be retirement age and older.
>>
>> Would it be toxic to older Americans ????? I do not know
>> but they used a 75 age limit with no change or maybe
>> they did not evaluate the age info.
There was no specific AGE-RELATED studies done, with regards to WHEN you are exposed.
You can search the entire report and you won’t find the word AGE used even once.
The 75 year thing you are referring to was a cumulative-lifetime exposure curve used in some of the MATH.
The ‘exposure’ scenarios only assumed an ‘average’ (healthy) adult male of ‘average’ weight, an ‘average’ ( healthy ) adult female ( of average weight ), and an ‘average’ six-year old child ( of average weight ).
From page 12 of the report…
————————————————————–
In this analysis, it was assumed that an adult male weighs 78.1 kg (172 lb), an adult female weighs 65.4 kg (144 lb), and a six-year old child weighs 22.6 kg (49.8 lb) (EPA 1999).
————————————————————–
But it’s not like they put these ‘average’ ( healthy ) adults and a six-year old child in a booth and sprayed them with retardant.
This was a LAB-RAT study, only.
They then used standard ( and accepted ) formulas for ‘extrapolating’ results on LAB-RATS to possible effects on humans. They have ‘formulas’ they use for doing all that. ( Formulas that ARE, in fact, ‘accepted’ as valid by the EPA when these kinds of studies are done ).
But at NO time did they test whether or person’s actual AGE and/or RELATIVE HEALTH of an initial exposure made any difference to any test results.
Example: No tests done on RATS that already had asthma or other lung problems prior to esposure.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Toxicity to the lungs should affect all age groups with
>> varying afflictions.
Not necessarily. Depends on what ‘toxins’ are being tested and the relative initial health of the test subjects.
I think my ‘Unbelievable’ statement above was more related to the fact that even this report itself kept continually saying they did NOT have ALL of the data they needed on ALL of the products being tested… in both the potential carcinogenic substances and the ‘toxic agents’ present in the products… but they went ahead and called their test results VALID, anyway.
And then ( even with the missing data )… the JUDGE that originally ordered this testing ‘accepted’ this report as a valid result to his court order issued to the U.S. Forestry Service.
Throughout the report… you see statements like this…
Page 9…
——————————————————–
“For many chemicals, including the majority of those found in the fire-fighting products and the formulations themselves, long-term study data for estimating chronic RfDs are NOT AVAILABLE”.
——————————————————–
Page 11…
———————————————————
2.4 Data Gaps
The hazard assessment data gaps are as follows:
– NO long-term toxicity tests were available for the products as a whole.
– Dermal penetration rates were UNAVAILABLE for MOST of the chemicals.
– NO TOXICITY DATA were available for SEVERAL individual ingredients. Therefore, risks from these ingredients were NOT EVALUATED.
– CANCER slope factors were UNAVAILABLE for several chemicals that were identified as potential carcinogens. Therefore, CANCER RISKS from THESE chemicals could NOT be quantified.
———————————————————
Page 20…
———————————————————
4.2.2 Cancer Risk Estimation
As a result of the review of cancer studies presented in the Human Health Hazard Assessment (Section 2.0), a risk analysis for cancer was conducted for one of the ingredients in the gel Stockhausen Firecape FP-47. Although ADDITIONAL ingredients in the formulated products WERE identified as POSSIBLE CARCINOGENS, NO quantitative CANCER slope factors were available on which to base cancer risk estimates.
———————————————————
Etc… etc…
So I still say there are a lot of older Retired FF out here including me.
We have not shown any side affects to our long term exposures of retardant that seems to be a quantifiable statistic..
FosCheck was around back in the 60’s not much change in the chemicals over all those years to date FireTrol is newer but still dates back to 1980.
Let me just add some added info Federal Government Employees actually have a Union the Largest is the NFFE National Federation of Federal Employees.
The NFFE has been around for a long time dating back to the late 60’s
They have been instrumental in many changes to the Forest Service BLM and others. In 1970 we saw new regulations implemented on Overtime and Hazard pay until then we were all paid on straight time and no Hazard pay. The unions also got the 25% Sunday Differential and then the retirement system was overhauled to include and change the Fire Fighter and Law Enforcement retirement with increased benefits and mandatory Retirement Age of 55.
The NFFE also has been very active in safety and Safety equipment so what I am getting at if there was any concern on the Retardant the Union would also have been all over that and they have not been.
Based on FF information I would say there has been no indication of any hazards connected to The Retardants past or present. I would say that speaks volumes to the question of Virile infections or Cancer.
Our exposures as FF is 100 times more than one exposure to the public.
The problem with it killing fish is when it is first put in the water it removes all the oxygen and kills the fish it has nothing to do with the chemicals.
I still remain convinced that there are no known side affects to humans or animals form Retardant or Foam. There is nothing at this time to indicate I am wrong.
Yarnell and Prescott have a large number of retirees between 60 and 90.
we have two examples of Sonny Hart trouble 73 and Joy with cancer 36.
My step dad died at 87 when his hart gave out he fought fire from 1946 to his retirement in 1981. He had retardant dropped on him way back in the 50’s. He never smoked and had good lungs he also lived in Arizona Sun City for 30 years.
I could go on and on about different Friends that were in Fire to reinforce what I believe to be true.
Oh wow, sitting here reading another implosion!
To slow all this bitchin’ down, I’m sure we can come up with new ways of categorising the evidence presented to and by this campfire.
From
“Absolute – Verified” – Verified by several First Hand sources, witness’, caught on recordings, photo’s, logs.
To the Wacky
“Downright could not have happened” – From sources NO-ONE trusts, or believes, NEVER witnessed,
NOT caught on any recordings, obviously made-up-stuff. (I’m thinking EN back in the day – especially the “FRED” stories – “I’m Fred…no I mean I’m Sparticus”)
Now there is obviously a WHOLE LOT of grey between the two, and while I’m defo not taking sides or “camps”, despite any reservations WTKTT might have,
I’d still rate RTS’ information could be put at a level akin to “Very Likely – Unverified” – Second Hand source or witness to actual events or recordings etc.
It’s obviously NOT ideal that it can’t be verified at this time, first hand, with actual “doubting Thomas” proofs, but hey, we are where we are currently.
So lets file it under “Very Likely – Unverified” (for want of a better name) move on and come back to it in the future as more evidence falls from other trees that may cross verify it.
…thats how I’m doing this in my head, and it works, you’re all welcome to your own categories, I’m sure you can come up with better names than I
I do so hate all this infighting (I always feel like THEY are winning)
I agree with you and I like your idea and categories. And of course you are right about the bickering, I for one will try to be better, but I have been saying that for a long time though. So….
Congress and Yarnell locals.
The area the men died on opposite side today by mile 273 elephant area a 18 wheeler wreck. Going up mountain required pilot car and going down is shut down and awaiting second wrecker from phoenix. I rescheduled Sonny’s appt so I can get a mountain view for locals of course avoiding the state land troll restricted area but please pray for the people involved. People who accidentally got caught on hill going down were at standstill two to three hours so please avoids area.
Otis and Rocksteady,
Notwithstanding the lies and coverups in the alleged ‘Factual Reports,’ it actually is worth studying other SIMILAR wildland fires to gain a more true sense of Lessons Learned.
The fires most similar to the Yarnell Hill Fire in Fuels, Weather, Topography, and Human Factors are:
1990 Dude Fire (AZ)
1994 MacKenzie Fire (AZ)
1994 South Canyon Fire (CO)
In fact, McDonough admitted in one of his ASDOSH interviews, that the GMHS had studied and/or reviewed the Dude Fire and the conditions leading up to it prior to the YH fire
How about we figure out Yarnell before we go “tilting every windmill” Don Queote style??
It’s like comparing Custers Last Stand to the Alamo to Vietnam… They were all significant failures, but not related to each other at all except it was bad Intel that lead to bad decision making by those in command.
Just like Yarnell, South Canyon, Rattlesnake, Dude,Mann Gulck, Ed Pulaski… Should I continue????
Rocksteady,
You posted: “It’s like comparing Custers Last Stand to the Alamo to Vietnam… They were all significant failures, but not related to each other at all except it was bad Intel that lead to bad decision making by those in command.”
Yes indeed and that’s why there are literally hundreds of books and research papers and articles about the subjects of HUMAN FACTORS and HUMAN ERRORS in everything from military actions to avalanche fatalities to aircraft mishaps to wildland fire fatalities to aircraft and other transportation mishaps and so much more. These professions study and learn from these Lessons Learned.
And “Just like Yarnell, South Canyon, Rattlesnake, Dude,Mann Gulck, (sic) Ed Pulaski… Should I continue????”
Yes indeed, you should continue. You are focusing on CREW-related incidents here and there are plenty of smaller groups and individuals that dies as well from bad decisions, i.e. HUMAN ERROR.
To name just a few, other fatal and near-fatal wildfires would be: Cart Creek Fire (UT, 1977 ). Devils Den Fire (UT, 2006), Tuolomne Fire (CA, 2004), Point Fire (ID, 1995), Panther Fire (CA, 1996), New York Peak (NV, 2006). Little Venus Fire (WY, 2006), Indians Fire (CA, 2008), Coal Canyon Fire (SD, 2011), Shepard Mountain Fire (MT, 1996), Cedar Fire (CA, 2003), Calabasas Fire (CA, 1996), Nuttal Fire (AZ, 2004), Alabaugh Fire (SD, 2007), Kates Basin Fire Fire (WY, 2000), Cramer Fire (ID, 2003), Esperanza Fire (CA, 2006),
Ed Pulaski actually save MOST of his men. Five perished and he saved 45 men at gunpoint. He would be fired today for ‘Creating or Allowing a Hostile Work Environment’ even though the fireline is the real Hostile Environment.
There are Lessons Learned rooted in all these WFF tragedies, however, WFF must know about them and actually learn from them. You have to wonder if WFF’s actually are benefiting from the many WFF Lessons Learned.
ALL WFF fatality investigations and reports are rife with lies, coverups, and whitewashes, however, we can and we must learn from the Human Factors and Human Errors of WHY they occurred based on the WFF Rules.
There is still SOME hope that the 2015 Twisp Canyon Fire fatality investigation will be truthful and accurate. Not much but some.
Example The Rattle Snake Fire.
In 1957 the 10 standard orders 2 from the rattle snake fire
Post a Lookout and communications cause the Fatalities.
The wind change should have been expected and when it happened no one could warn the crew.
In training the Rattle Snake fire is used to show which fire created those two orders.
That is what makes this Yarnell Fire so significant. It is the mother of all cover ups and needs extreme investigation. Add to that the skewed deaths of Yarnell residents, we have another thing to consider. If anything good comes out of all these deaths it will be information that will prevent future catastrophes. Certainly the public wants to hear the good news of heroes dying due to God’s will and because they were doing the heroic deed of trying to save houses. Shit, when will we get out of the muck and into some hard truths. Reality is not always the way we would like to see. But to portray it as a lullaby when it is bad rap is not helping to solve problems in the fire fighting community that need to be addressed.
Hopefully the things fire fighters say and bicker about will make some that have held back come into the fray. The disagreements in a kind way are likely to bring some in that have real substance and facts to share. Something the investigators here can bite their teeth into.
Otis. You realize that we are only seeing part of this story. There is a lot of maneuvering behind the scenes. Imo
Excellent way to categorize Otis. . Perhaps Circumstantial evidence lies where? Maybe we can add to the grey area.
In all your BS below WTKTT you forgot to add a critical matter.
The Perryville crew did not have the BIFC Fire Radios that the others had.
they had their Arizona state radios.
Stated by the Division Boss on his report
Jeff Whitney Report is near the bottom of the report you posted.
The person listed by RTS may have truly had the only fire radio.
The crew rep may have been talking on the State radio which was picked up by some other person on the Fire they were never told about the SZ and where it was or warned over the Fine net from all I read.
Shake. Shake. Shake it…
Souls showing…
I carry that weekend in my heart every single day and I am sharing Bob to just skim and pass wwtktt if the words make you feel MF or BS because everyone is important in this even the janitor that is scared to open up or people who think their account and photos are gold and play ignorant in sharing and homeowners who say they are in litigation and can’t share…
Being a fireman is way harder than it looks and I hope Fernanda Santos shares her firefighter training in her book. I appreciate the men and women who serve our communities every day. Thank you.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 24, 2016 at 8:21 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My Main Point it is very Likely the Crew had only 1 Radio.
>> Issued from the Fire to the Crew Boss. by Fire camp.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> LARRY TERRA LEFT THE FIRE WITH THE ONLY CREW RADIO,
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I think Bob is probably right. I think that as many years ago as that fire
>> was, the Perryville crew (which is a prison crew) probably only had
>> one fire net radio.
ALL of you are WRONG… and if you would take even a few minutes to go and READ the actual report that I already posted a link to… you will see that for yourselves.
Read ALL of the ‘witness reports’.
Look for references to RADIOS and direct communications between the Perryville crew to OPERATIONS… and on the State Fire Frequency… before, during, and AFTER the burnover.
Whatever ‘radio’ Larry Terra *might* have ‘absconded’ with while he *might* have snuck off to get ciggies and twinkies ( or whatever that was RTS was trying to say ) made NO DIFFERENCE regarding the ability of the Perryville crew to transmit and receive on the established Arizona State Fire frequency chosen for the Dude fire ( 154.280 ).
Larry Terra could have not only grabbed some ciggies… he could have checked himself into a hotel and taken a shower and not been anywhere near Walk Moore Canyon that afternoon…. and it PROBABLY wouldn’t have made any difference in the outcome that day whatsoever.
One more time…
Original 1990 DUDE fire Official Accident Investigation Report
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr11/lsr11_investigation_report.pdf
Dave LaTour was the Arizona Forestry ‘Perryville Crew Rep’ that day.
Regardless of where Larry Terra might have gone that day… LaTour was THERE in Walk Moore Canyon with the Perryville crew before, during and after the deployment.
He is the one who actually TOLD everyone on the Perryville Crew who hadn’t made it out to the Control Road to deploy, and who ‘called in’ the deployment itself over the OPERATIONS radio channel, then kept (some) people from dying by shouting instructions to ‘stay put’ during the burnover. He ( LaTour ) is then also the one using the same radio to contact people AFTER the burnover when the survivors reached the Control Road.
LaTour DID have the ‘State Frequency’ in use that day ( 154.280 ) programmed into his radio.
Here are just some excerpts from just ONE of the many handwritten witness statements proving that despite Larry Terra’s absence… the Perryville Crew had plenty of RADIO onboard and they WERE able to communicate with OPERATIONS and OTHER UNITS that day…
PDF page 57…
——————————————————————————–
WITNESS: Dave LaTour, Crew Rep for Perryville DOC Crew.
LOCATION OF INTERVIEW: LaTour Home
OFFICER CONDUCTING INTERVIEW: Lee (Redding).
“He had his RADIO on the State Frequency ( 154.280 )”.
“He had been told their escape route was downhill”.
“When he got to crew he could hear shouting and see people running downhill”.
“Heard yelling and saw people coming BACK and a solid wall of fire behind them”.
“He turned around and went back telling peoplel to get shelters out but don’t deploy until up hill”.
“There were 2 people ahead of him and about halfway up the the hill they had to deploy”.
“The others deployed in a drainage”.
“He asked for a (name) count and RADIOED they were deploying”.
“Screaming continues”.
“He heard shelters moving and kept telling them to stay put”
“After the burnonver… he tried calling on RADIO but no answer. Tried ALL CHANNELS”.
“Then he HEARD some traffic that help was on the way”.
“They got to the road and no one was there to help”.
“He tried the RADIO again – no answer. Took mike off and got Chief – he told them to turn right”.
“They walked about 200 yds and a F.S. pickup met them and took them to (clearing)”.
“He remembers telling Terra to go get water for for crew which was delivered by ATV”.
——————————————————————————–
LaTour’s MAYDAY call ( “Perryville has deployed” ) was first heard by Bob Scopa, Fire Captain for Central Yavapai Fire District who was running an Engine Crew that day.
Scopa is then the first one to RESPOND to LaTour over the assigned Arizona State Fire Frequency ( 154.280 )…
PDF page 72…
——————————————————————————–
WITNESS: Bob Scopa, Fire Captain – Central Yavapai Fire District
LOCATION OF INTERVIEW: Baptist Camp
OFFICER CONDUCTING INTERVIEW: Dick Mangan – MTDC
DATE OF INTERVIEW: 6/29/90
“Bob Scopa was the engine strike team leader at Bonita Creek Subdivision.
He worked on structure protection for division supervisors Ashby and Whitney.
His communication was on the Interagency NIIMS frequency ( 154.280 ).
He had talked with the Crew Rep ( Dave LaTour ) from Perryville when the
Type II / Type I team transition occured”.
“Scopa got a RADIO CALL on 154.280 indicating ‘Perryville has DEPLOYED’. He asked
the person to repeat the crew name. The response was again ‘Perryville has DEPLOYED”.
“Scopa called Div. Sup ( Jeff ) Whitney to report the deployment”.
——————————————————————————–
Another confirmation that Dave LaTour was able to ‘announce’ the deployment over the established 154.280 channel…
PDF page 34…
——————————————————————————–
WITNESS: Dick Cooke, OPS Section Chief – Type I
“Scopa heard on his radio that Perryville was GOING to deploy shelters.”
——————————————————————————–
And that’s just Dave LaTour.
Other handwritten testimony indicates that at least TWO other burnover survivors ( William Davenport and Don Love ) had their OWN RADIOS with them that day, before, during and after the burnover… and they WERE eventually able to contact the outside world with them and call for help…
PDF page 39…
WITNESS: William Davenport, Perryville Crew Member ( survived ).
“Deployed next to Don Love. Deployed down the hill from the H2O (water) cans.
“( Tried to use MY RADIO ) during the deployment, but could not transmit”.
PDF page 55…
WITNESS: Greg Hoke, Perryville Crew Member ( survived ).
“Then LaTour, Davenport and Ellis ( he was suprised to see Ellis – thought he had gone down line ). They reached (the) hose lay when Ellis said he was dead and walked over to ditch and sat down and died. He and Love continued (down) to (Control) Road. Love had the RADIO. Could receive but could not send. Did get responses at road and was told to go right. They knew (of) shelter deployment (already).”
PDF page 64…
WITNESS: Don Love, Perryville Crew ( Assistant Squad Boss ) ( survived ).
“LaTour gave directions to deploy their shelters”.
“LaTour RADIOED that Perryville was deploying shelters”.
“Continued (down) and met Ellis coming up the canyon. He had serious burns”.
“Ellis said he was dead. He went towards a hose and rolled off into a ditch”.
“Love called on RADIO and contacted Pumper Truck 2. Keep going to the Control Road”.
“Turned to the right after getting to the road”.
So before this turns into some kind of total relook at a 16 year old fire… let me try to bring this back to some ‘relevance’ to the discussion at hand.
Some mysterious poster named ‘Robert the Second’ (RTS) has posted yet another ‘story’ on this PUBLIC forum ( without naming any sources ), and an important part of that ‘story’ seems to be demonstrably UNTRUE.
I think ( me personally, myself, only, not speaking for others, your mileage may vary, to each his own, believe what you like, yada, yada, yada ) this just emphasizes the importance of knowing WHERE pieces of ‘information’ are coming FROM, in order to have the best chance of lifting them out of the RUMOR category.
We have enough RUMORS already. Let’s see if we can get more FACTS on the table.
WTF does this have to do with Yarnell???
Focus, people, focus….
Who cares what happened on the X fire back in 199?…
We are talking Yarnell… Not every other fire that has occurred since the beginning of time.
The Mann Gulch fire has sweet f-a to do with Yarnell, so let’s not even go there…
IMHO, same with the Dude, South Canyon, Rattlesnake, 30 mile, Twist, big blow up with Pulaski…
Separate incidents that have no correlation, except somebody screwed up and someone died…
Sorry Rocksteady but they all have something to do with the 10 and 18.
And some are similar in different ways to Yarnell.
South Canyon Loop and Yarnell all with HS Crews.
If you have any thing at all that we have not discussed about yarnell or we do not already know. We are basically killing time here waiting.
We have dug so deep looking at what we already know we are getting close to the water table.
Well…Rocksteady, I think you make a very good point so I am going to get down into the weeds with were I think we are at right now.
We have two camps here,
1. Camp one is WTKTT, who maintains that RTS must provide background information on his Sources of Information before we can take that info to the bank and cash it.
2. Camp two consists of Bob and I, who maintain that RTS does not have to provide background information on his Sources of Information before we can take that to info to the bank and cash it.
In other words, accept it as true and accurate so that we move forward with this discussion with the assumption that information is correct, at least until when and if such a time comes when all sides can present their arguments regarding the veracity of that info and the matter can be litigated.
Now, WTKTT is using the attempt RTS made to answer Dale1’s question regarding the Dude Fire as a Gotcha Moment to prove that he is right and RTS is indeed fallible and that is why he must provide background information on his SOI’s. So we are still stuck, because neither WTKTT nor RTS is giving in on this argument. WTKTT says he must, and RTS says he can’t.
Now, just for a clarification on my search warrant analogy below, I think it is appropriate because I am equating RTS as a Senior Special Agent who is presenting information that is unproven as of yet, but since it is being relayed through a trusted source (RTS) who comes with the presumption of complete reliability and trustworthiness it is reliable and trustworthy.
And I believe RTS is relaying information from trusted and verifiable SOI’s who are in positions to know what they are talking about. Now, in the old days SOI’s were called Confidential Informants that was morphed into CI’s and that morphed into snitches who were commonly perps (perpetrators or criminals who were working off charges as snitches).
Renaming sources of information SOI’s instead of CI’s is recognition that information comes from many sources which include many groups of people who are not snitches or perps but are honest, reliable and trustworthy people who want to help get the truth known and it has absolutely nothing to do with working off charges or getting money in exchange for information. Good citizens.
So…let me state once again, I know RTS, I have known RTS for 40 years, I know him to be completely reliable, trustworthy and an invaluable source of information for the rest of us who are in the dark and will be in the dark forever unless someone like RTS guides out of the wilderness to the Promised Land.
I also think I know who RTS is talking to because I know who he is, and I believe that his SOI’s are completely reliable, trustworthy and an invaluable sources of information.
The disagreement RTS and I had below was over based on a disagreement over the validity of what may be contributing factors as opposed to what we know were the primary factors in the deaths of the GMIHC.
I think everybody agrees on what the primary factor in the deaths of the GMIHC were, the fact that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ignored almost all of the safety rules at one time without a backup plan and failed to make the correct decision about whether to take the GMIHC out of the black.
What we are looking for now or at least what I am looking for are the contributing factors in the deaths of the crew and I am focusing on the human factors of this tragedy.
And now to make a long story short, whatever happened on the Dude Fire, I still believe everything RTS say’s about the details of the Yarnell Hill Fire. IF down the road, this is proven to not be true, we will deal with that when and if that day ever comes when everyone will have the opportunity to litigate why or why not that information may or may not be true.
And FYI, I care the same about all wildland firefighters equally and that includes even smokejumpers. I only talk about hotshots because that is all I ever was, I never worked in any other positions which included any overhead (except to get my ticket punched) positions. I also consider myself an expert on three fires, the Loop Fire, the Battlement Creek Fire and the South Canyon Fire because those where the only three fires hotshots died on before the YHF. But now I am working on becoming an expert on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And even though I like to complain about the system (ICS) that brought structural firefighters (firemen) into our extended family, well…they are here now so we have to worry about them just as much as anyone else.
And just for the record I do not consider the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew to have even been structural fireman, I just think they were unduly influenced by the structural fireman culture because they were sponsored by a fire department and managed by a man who had very little understanding of what it meant to be a wildland firefighter…Darrell Willis.
The GMIHC were wildland firefighters….period, end of story.
It is a good idea that Otis has in classifying sources. Sounds like RTS is a great source and for circumstantial information is at the top. We are hoping his sources have his integrity.
No need to lambast RTS or anyone else on the site and with my minimal knowledge I could not do it anyhow. However I see just about everyone here adding input just about equally. Anyway to solve a complicated equation often requires many angles before the solution can be known. Sometimes there are several ways to get to the solution as well.
In the Yarnell Hill incident there is evidence of much error. Then as we see in many of the other fires that have killed wild land fire fighters and smoke jumpers, there has been enough lying and hog wash to classify certain individuals as doing criminal acts. Perjury under oath is definitely punishable. Lying outside of oath and withholding information that would cover a crime or crimes must have its penalties as well.
Here we are seeing those who want the truth out and speak what they believe in good conscience to be truth being punished. Case in point was Amanda coming after Joy and a Judge that allowed the right of her free speech to be bridled. Of course she was laterally on the front line of the fire and of the quest for the truth. But she also has not been the only silenced by threats from the fire gods. There are many and I have witnessed some of this personally.
Why Gary, WTKTT, RTS, Marti, Bob, JD, Rock Steady, Woodsman, Otis and so many others on this site are so important is because each is speaking their valued opinion freely without fear of retribution. It is only the fearful that hold back the truth in these matters–to be a hero requires that one face the truth no matter the consequences.
Those that have accepted awards, and those that have kept their knowledge of facts on the Yarnell fire are not heroes in my way of thinking. In fact they to me are akin to robbers since they are robbing us of facts and truths that would change the problems that continue to manifest by the deaths of wild land fire fighters and smoke jumpers. Unless people get honest the system will continue to do the evil we saw at Yarnell. It was no accident here–just poor fire fighting that has been made to look like just accidental and God’s will.
I can see that John Dougherty keeps a good eye on things here. We certainly want to keep friends among a solution to change and improve fire fighting methods and safety by evaluating and exposing all mal practices such as we have seen here at Yarnell and in past fires that have snuffed out the lives of America’s finest.
another death here in Yarnell—
Which again reminds me that not only are the wild land fire fighters affected by these fires but so are the civilian concerns. Seventy five dead now at Yarnell, the recent death a man in his mid 60’s. Seventy five is a huge number for a count of less than 650 population. Even if it were half of 75 it would still be skewed on the bell curve enough that reasons for these deaths need to be investigated. I think I am a dead man myself after my recent maladies but then I am still writing.
The only thing I can think of in the recent past that has made locals ill with mainly respiratory and related problems was that dump of what Dickerson said was 30 thousand gallons of agent orange LC95A or its clones. Now there is no question in my mind that those heavy dumps right on top of many residences has compromised the health of especially the elderly whom have generally retired here with some problems of health already. The young folks won’t feel the problems until they reach the age we in the elderly classification are.
In my own case I was never a smoker. However I had worked in some rat holes where ventilation was minimal and only that coming off the end of a jack hammer or jack leg. You kept your head near the hammer air outlet to breath that oily air–but the oil was clean at least. Still I never had breathing problems until after the hikes and Joy and I did many. It suddenly dawned on me when my youngest son, a smoker and detester of hikes, was ahead of me on that 16 miler that covers most of the walk of the 19. It got worse and next since my heart wasn’t getting the oxygen and my veins were plugged enough that I needed efficient lungs I experienced some excruciating heart attacks all in a short period of time.
I don’t mind saying it is a good damn thing I have Irish people, most whom have lived into their 90’s only one generation back.
I say these things because it might draw attention to a health hazard that needs to be thoroughly investigated–not for my own sake but for those young men that will face future lung issues and health concerns as well as the many who locally I see as having their latter years cut short.
Perhaps an investigation will keep this shit away from places people have to reside and maybe even keep fire fighters from being dumped on as they risk their lives on the front.
But don’t hold your breath–they will hold it for you. By they I mean the people making multi millions out of this and the politicians who have their hands under the table.
Sonny… you say this most recent death was a “man in his 6o’s”.
Are you at liberty to say ( or do you know ) exactly what he died OF?
We are looking into that- renal is what Leslie stated but want to confirm with the family.
Reply to Gary Olson post on January 24, 2016 at 8:35 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> We have two camps here,
My comment on that is that I would tend to ‘define’ what now appears to be the ‘two camps’ more like…
1. People who definitely KNOW, for sure and certain, WHO a poster named “Robert the Second” really is… and who ALSO seem to KNOW exactly WHO is “talking” to him in the shadows.
2. People who do NOT ( KNOW either of those things ).
The score on that seems to be…
3 people versus ( unknown amount of people ).
Actually… since it would appear that Gary Olson is not 100 percent sure WHO is actually “talking” to this guy ( but is still sure who he is )… the ‘score’ is more like…
2 and 1/2 people versus ( unknown amount of people ).
Well, actually even the ‘unknown amount of people’ side of the score can be adjusted to at least the digit ONE… because MY own ‘racing form information’ with regards to knowing exactly WHO this guy is and WHO is talking to him would be… big fat ZERO and big fat ZERO.
I am GLAD that this ‘RTS’ guy actually seems to have taken my advice from (somewhere) down below when I said…
“RTS… please keep posting your ‘information’… but please also be ready for some persistent QUESTIONS about the ORIGIN OF IT”.
Playing ‘deepthroat’ on a PUBLIC forum is not for the faint of heart.
If you chose to do that… there will ALWAYS be other members of the PUBLIC pressing you for more details.
That’s just the way it is.
If there really are some number of FFs in the background who are DESPERATELY trying to find a way to get things they know to be ‘leaked’ by someone… so that they can remain ‘in the shadows’… then there are other alternatives and I think they should pursue them.
No, I definitely do not know who RTS is talking to, I can only guess, but it goes back to my position that since he can be trusted, his sources can be trusted. But apparently you are not buying this argument so…
Reply to Gary Olson post on
January 24, 2016 at 11:51 pm.
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> No, I definitely do not know who RTS is talking to.
That’s a CONFIRM on that, then. Thank you.
So the ‘score’ still seems to look like…
Robert the Second ( RTS )
Definitely knows who he is.
Definitely knows who is telling him things.
Bob Powers…
Definitely knows who he is.
Definitely knows who is telling him things.
Gary Olson…
Definitely knows who is is.
Does NOT ‘definitely’ know who is telling him things.
Everyone else…
Big fat ZERO.
Big fat ZERO.
WHO is this guy WTKTT.
He quantifies information.
Has never been a Fire Fighter.
Understands nothing of the FF Culture.
Knows only us FF on Here
Has never been to the Top of a mountain in the west or walked in Brush, Sagebrush or Grass.
Probably dose not know the difference between
Yellow pine and Dough fir Ponderosa and Pinion juniper.
I think you get the idea.
So WTKTT is not interested in any thing we have to impart from our contacts and knowledge with out names and specific sources.
That’s why WTKTT is a big fat ZERO with out our input.
One more thing YES there are Government imposed GAG ORDERS since 2000 they are not gust implied threats in some back room. They Carrie the lose of your job to a minimum end of all promotions and no Federal Lawyer assistance as a employee.
Legal actions from the Cramer fire and others have brought this new legal action down on the people on fires.
You have asked but not looked the first evidence is all the redactions from the BR crew.
BUY THE FEDERAL LAWYERS.
The protection of FS witnesses FF on Yarnell.
The SAIT did not do the redactions the Federal Lawyers did and they were involved with in 24 hours of the Burn over.
Have we seen much in evidence of the Fire Fatalities this past year no direct witness testimony that shows any fault.
I have said before the Cramer fire the FF on that fire were not allowed to give any information publicly and the Ranger and her Boy friend soon the to be husband the district FMO were tried with out information and acquitted of any felony counts.
Why because of what happened was kept under wraps and no witnesses were know who would talk.
Of course they both finished out their carriers in meaningless jobs and retired.
Yes in this new world today there are legal restraints
Buy Lawyers for the Government–GAG ORDERS–
Gary— it is a different world out there and people will be tried for manslaughter witness testimony is being blocked for many reasons. People are not talking for many varied reasons out side of their circle of trusted friends.
Gary,
You posted: “And just for the record I do not consider the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew to have even been structural fireman, I just think they were unduly influenced by the structural fireman culture because they were sponsored by a fire department and managed by a man who had very little understanding of what it meant to be a wildland firefighter…Darrell Willis.”
Totally agree with this statement. All one has to do is listen to Willis’ July 2013 YH Fire Fatality site News Conference.
Almighty One WTKTT,
You are one arrogant SOB and seem to have taken on a lot of the BWS EN qualities. You come across as high and mighty, and you are very smart – yet very ignorant as well. Your feculence has no end to it.
And a true Ricardo Cabeza to boot. Once again, I ask: Who the f**k do you think you are, Your Feculency?
You, having NO WFF experience whatsoever, have the audacity to suggest that I did not actually see and talk to LARRY TERRA that day, that I made all this up. And that TERRA was actually with the Perryville Crew during their fire shelter deployments and the ensuing fatalities. F**king amazing!
It does NOT matter what his or other Perryville inmate witness statements say where he claims he was and what he claims to have been doing. He is a LIAR! He quit the DOC after the Dude Fire.
Radios? It appears that Your Feculency has listed just about everyone on the Dude Fire that actually had a radio. So what?
And the radio conversations that you cite by Perryville WFF are all within the Crew and/or on the Mutual Aid channel (154.280). And the Perryville radios found in and around the fatality site were Squad radios, just based on the manufacturers alone. So what?
“On June 30, 1990 at about 1330, Jim Mattingly, the Alpine Hot Shot Supt.. programmed THE Perryville radio to match his.”
This sure looks like they had only one NIFC radio, but you wouldn’t know that.
LARRY TERRA had the only NIFC radio on the Crew is what I failed to clarify. “TERRA had a King programmable and the Crew had Squad radios, for a total of five radios.” (Huge difference) LaTour deposition, pages 64, 67, 74, 76, 116-117, 121-125, 128, 191, 193-194, and 204.
Dave LaTour was NOT a Perryville Type 2 Crew inmate and/or DOC employee. He was later assigned to the Perryville Crew as a Crew Representative (CREP).
Aside from TERRA abandoning his Crew and the professional misfeasance that goes with it, I allege that LATOUR was ultimately responsible for the Crew deaths.
LaTour claimed himself as the Crew lookout yet worked with them, then would high-point for a bit, then back down with the Crew. This is NOT a designated lookout!
Latour ignored ALL the fire weather and fire indicators that should have warned him that things were going south and they need to be getting out of harm’s way.
The Navajo Scouts warned him to leave and he ignored them. He said that he had ‘burning bark plates’ bouncing off his fire shirt and he ignored this. He said he had ‘burning sticks and twigs and pine cones bouncing off his fire shirt’ and he ignored this as well.
He said when he saw the fire burning aggressively down into Walk Moore Canyon that he decided it was time to leave. It was TOO LATE and they were cut off.
These were the comments he made while at the fatality site, on the initial Dude Fire Staff Ride in 1999, as part of a national fire behavior workshop in Phoenix, AZ.
And I will NOT provide any names and all the other personal information you demand so that you, like some rabid animal, can augur into every facet of their private lives.
I am well aware of how all of these incidents are related, using the 10 and 18. I get it..
However, what I do not get is the bantering and bickering over a different incident, just trying to prove credibility.
If the “FInal Report” for the Dude Fire was made the same way that the Yarnell report was written, I would not be taking it as verbatim truth.
K, Back into the shadows… Wake me up when we find new evidence 🙂
I agree with you and I am going to try and do my best to join you.for a nap…virtually that is.
Bob we might add that the Mann Gulch Fire had similarities to the Yarnell Catastrophe in the tendency for FS, et. al., to adjust the narrative to self serving perspectives.
Oh…and one more thing. I think the Loop Fire, and the Battlement Creek Fire are directly related to the Yarnell Hill Fire because the same factors that killed all of the hotshots on these fires were all the same. Excessive hubris in the crew bosses and a burning desire to prove their crews were better than any other crews. The South Canyon Fire…not so much.
After all, “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.”
Edmund Burke
robertsecond how didd they llie about dude firel…??
dale1,
On the June 1990 Dude Fire on the Tonto NF in Central AZ, the Crew Leader, LARRY TERRA, a Department of Corrections (DOC) employee, was the Crew Leader for the AZ State Prisons Perryville Type 2 Crew while actually engaged in fire suppression duties WHILE ON the firelines
The second in charge was DOC employee SANDRA BACHMAN, a prison guard responsible for the Crew OFF the firelines. Because she was having an affair (common knowledge in the WF realm after the fatalities) with the prison warden, she had it ‘arranged’ so that she could be on the firelines. She had virtually NO experience as a WFF and the Dude Fire was likely her first wildfire.
Sometime in the early afternoon, LARRY TERRA LEFT THE FIRE WITH THE ONLY CREW RADIO, WITHOUT NOTIFYING ANYONE ON THE PERRYVILLE CREW OR ANY SUPERVISOR THAT HE LEFT THE FIRELINE.
He went to a small, local store a few miles away, during the IMT transition time and when the fatalities occurred while he was gone and Assistant SANDRA BACHMAN was in charge of the Perryville Crew,
After the fatalities occurred the afternoon of 26 June 1990, and while the details were being transmitted on the radio, myself and other HS Crews and WFF’s were in Fuller Canyon, one canyon west of Walk Moore Canyon where the fatalities occurred. We were on the Control Road junction when a white DOC vehicle with a WFF wearing a bright yellow jump suit was driving back and forth, unable to get through due to the aggressive fire behavior.
I stopped him and asked him what he was doing. In clear view on the seat next to him were packs of cigarettes, soda pop, and other items. HE SAID CLEARLY SEVERAL TIMES, “I SHOULD HAVE NEVER LEFT MY CREW. He stated his Crew was Perryville when asked which Crew, and stated SEVERAL TIMES AGAIN, when told they were “in a bad way” – “I SHOULD HAVE NEVER LEFT MY CREW.”
SAIT Investigators were aware of this FACT within three (3) days, yet concluded ‘that it would have had NO significant outcome on the fatalities.’
REALLY? He has the ONLY radio, he has left the Crew in charge of a novice, he has failed to notify anyone he is gone from the Crew, Crew cohesion and dynamics with trust and communications issues, and much more …. Asisde for ignoring the MANY Watch Out Situations and failing to follow the Ten Standard Fire Orders, those are some of the reasons the fatalities occurred.
LCES was established officially in 1990 as a direct result of the Dude Fire by Zig Zag HS Supt. Paul Gleason. We had been practicing the ‘principles’ of LCES LONG BEFORE it was officially endorsed.
The ‘official’ alleged ‘Factual Report” claimed that TERRA and one of the inmates were in Walk Moore Canyon getting water for their Crew. LIES! The water was being delivered by a Payson Ranger District employee on an ATV all that day.
I allege he self-imposed a burn on his neck and threatened the other inmates to stick to the ‘story’ of what happened according to Terra.
I found out MANY years later that the inmate that was supposedly with TERRA was off with some other inmates smoking dope and that’s why they/he wasn’t/weren’t with the rest of the Perryville Crew when the burnover and fatalities occurred. This came from the 1990 inmates son who said his father often told this story.
The 1990 Dude Fire ‘Factual Report’ is a lie and a cover-up and a whitewash.
Hopefully, this all passes muster with you WTKTT. This is one of countless fatality fires where the ‘EVIDENCE RECORD’ and all the other names you have, is counter to THE TRUTH and what actually happened and why.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on January 23, 2016 at 6:45 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The 1990 Dude Fire ‘Factual Report’ is a lie and
>> a cover-up and a whitewash.
Let me preface all other comments that follow with…
That is actually ( most likely ) TRUE… but perhaps NOT for all the reasons you iterate.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Hopefully, this all passes muster with you WTKTT.
Sorry to rain on your parade ( once again )… but NO.
Some of what you just posted does NOT ( pass muster ).
Not with ‘more information about the information’, anyway ( sound familiar? ).
As for your “close encounter of the Larry Terra” kind… for once we seem to be getting a ‘first hand’ account from you so I’m not going to argue that one way or the other.
If you say you ran into him that day, at that time… well… maybe you did.
Seems to me you are not 100 percent sure that WAS him you ran into, but that’s neither here nor there.
What bothers me is your OTHER claim about the RADIO(S), and your inference that that might have been some major contributing factor to the deaths that day.
So here we are again… and here I am with a similar question.
Same guy ( RTS ) doing the same thing ( making an allegation… but this time it’s a ‘different’ fire )… but the same problem/question exists as with (his) recent allegations.
WHERE are you getting this ‘information’?
WHERE are you getting the ‘information’ that ( in your own words )…
“LARRY TERRA LEFT THE FIRE WITH THE ONLY CREW RADIO WITHOUT
NOTIFYING ANYONE ON THE PERRYVILLE CREW OR ANY SUPERVISOR
THAT HE LEFT THE FIRELINE”.
You are partly basing your entire ‘allegation’ above on this RADIO thing and saying it is ‘one’ of the ‘some’ of ‘reasons the fatalities occurred’… as follows…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> He has the ONLY radio, he has left the Crew in charge of a
>> novice, he has failed to notify anyone he is gone from the Crew,
>> Crew cohesion and dynamics with trust and communications
>> issues, and much more …. Asisde for ignoring the MANY Watch
>> Out Situations and failing to follow the Ten Standard Fire Orders,
>> those are some of the reasons the fatalities occurred.
So I have a right to ask a familiar question…
WHERE are you getting that ‘ONE AND ONLY RADIO’ allegation from?
There is PLENTY of evidence to disprove what you are claiming.
Evidence that spans MANY handwritten Unit Logs and handwritten testimony from people that were NOT on the Perryville Crew OR under Larry Terra’s influence.
By the way… the entire ( orgiinal ) Dude Fire SAIT report ( including all handwritten Unit Logs and witness testimony ) is here…
Original 1990 DUDE fire Official Accident Investigation Report
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr11/lsr11_investigation_report.pdf
** PERRYVILLE CREW RADIO ROUNDUP
For starters… here is part of the official ‘narrative’ from the official Dude Fire report.
Yes… yes… I know… you are claiming this ENTIRE report is a crock of shit… but
stick with me for a moment and focus on the RADIO COUNT(S)…
PDF page 12
—————————————————————————————-
The Perryville Crew was located approximately one-third of the way down Walk Moore Canyon, at about 1300 hours ( 1:00 PM ), when they ran out of water. Crew Boss Larry Terra took Crew Member Fred Hill and left to get water at the Control Road leaving Assistant Crew Boss Sandra Bachman in charge with Crew Representative Dave LaTour. Terra sent the water up the line on an all-terrain vehicle and began walking back with Hill.
The Crew gathered around the water supply, 3,300 feet from the Control Road, to fill their canteens. Just minutes after returning to work at about 1415-1420 hours ( 2:15 to 2:20 PM ), a Navajo (Hotshots) crew member yelled “Get Out”. All of the Navajo and Perryville Crew members, realizing the fire was blowing up, immediately began running down Walk Moore Canyon toward the Control Road. Part way down, 11 members of the Perryville Crew were cut off when the fire crossed the dozer line. They turned around and began running back up the Canyon with orders to deploy their shelters.
Crew Representative LaTour RADIOED that the Perryville Crew was deploying their shelters Strike Team Leader Scope forwarded the message to Operations Section Chief at 1423 hours.
—————————————————————————————
So if Terra was off somewhere ( meeting you? ) with the ONLY RADIO… where did LaTour get the radio he used to actually call out the ‘deployment’?
** PERRYVILLE CREW RADIOS FOUND ON THE GROUND…
PDF page 26 of 100
NOTE: This page of the official report is a map of the deployment area with ‘dots’ showing where specific pieces of Perryville DOC Crew Equipment were found following the deployment and burnover.
————————————————————————
DIAGRAM
DUDE INCIDENT – 6/26/90
Walk Moore Canyon – Tonto National Forest
CREW EQUIPMENT LOCATION
Perryville Crew
– Radio – Dumont
– Radio – Karr Electronic
– Fire Packs with 2 radios – #27 – S. Bachman
——————————————-
Those are just the ‘radios’ (supposedly) found at the deployment site.
This ‘map’ doesn’t include the one that was (supposedly) used by LaTour to actually radio out that the crew was ‘deploying’, or the one that deployment survivor William Davenport testified trying to use DURING the burnover, and the one that Greg Hoke said Dave Love had and was trying to use while they walked down to the Control Road post-burnover.
So counting LaTour’s, Davenport’s and Love’s radio(s)… AND the other RADIOS indicated on the ‘found equipment’ map… that seems to be a minimum of SEVEN radios that were known to have been onboard the Perryville Crew that day… even just prior to and WHILE they were deploying.
So to repeat the question…
WHERE are you getting YOUR information that Terra ‘absconded’ with the ONLY RADIO, and that that was some kind of major/minor ‘contributing factor’ to the DEATHS?
Fact—-
Type 2 Crews the Crew Boss are issued a Radio at the Fire.
Type 2 Crews Federal employees Have Radios most other Crews State and Private Do not Carrie Radios that can be programed or otherwise. I will clarify that as most States CalFire is way ahead here as they do have Radios the Same as Feds.
So Type 2 Crews on Fed Fires are issued a Radio for each Crew Boss.
That is one Radio per Crew.
Hot Shot Crews Have Programmable and or Crew Radios Depending on the Funding from 4 to 8..
The Radio System on Fires is and has always been a Problem that has and is taking time to work its self out.
My Main Point it is very Likely the Crew had only 1 Radio. Issued from the Fire
to the Crew Boss. by Fire camp.
woops Meant to also include the State may have only 1 programmable Radio per crew.
Also remember the Engine crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire the Eng. Operator had to blow their siren to get the crew off the line NO RADIO with the Crew only the Eng.
High Ban and Low band Freq. are not compatible on the same Radio.
as I said it gets complicated. Many Co-op Engines have 2 or 3 Radios installed to talk with State, County or Federal units. And on and on.
Bob,
You mean ‘narrow band’ not high band/low band. I can tell you my state type 2 & type 2IA crews (& I would say more crews than you think) have at least 7 portable Bendix/King narrow band digital radios per crew whenever on an assignment. We have lots of them and we can program them in the field.
You are correct – comm is still a challenge as it was in your time.
Woodsman
Was thinking more of the inmate crews and the date.
You are correct High Ban Low Ban is the old school talk Vs. Narrow ban today. This fire is old enough it could not have had programmable’s yet can’t remember when they came out but it took some time to switch over from the 8 channel to the Programmable’s.
Not sure Programmable’s were in a great supply in 1990.
Most IRHSC only had 4 Portables back then. Non of the Type 2 crews had any portables they were issued out of Fire Camp.
my old is showing the Narrow band Vs the broad band was a problem with a lot of local County City and State Radios.
And many had to buy Radios for the National ICS Communications The costs kept some from getting a lot of portables and the stuck to the vehicle radios first.
3 years ago in Twin Falls County when I quit the Sheriff’s. They still could not talk to the FS and BLM Law enforcement those units had to have seperiate radios installed due to the Freq. differences.
How is it where you are with FEMA and the National Emergency Freq. ?
Old Fact the Hot Shot crews got the Crew Radios small portables in the 1964 to 1967 they were only 4 channel as I remember.
Forest 1 & 2, Crew and Air. When we went on a fire the Fire freq. radio was carried by the crew boss only. 60’s thru the 80’s. The 8 channel came out during that period. I believe the 16 channel programmable’s came out in 92 or 93 ????
From the old man
I think Bob is probably right. I think that as many years ago as that fire was, the Perryville crew (which is a prison crew) probably only had one fire net radio.
This means that even though the crew itself may have had multiple intra-crew net radios, they would have had only one radio the fire was being run off of and their intra-net radios probably where not programmable to the special frequency that had been reserved for a NIFC or South Zone Fire Cache of radios.
And so it is quite possible that all of the warnings only came over the one radio with the crew boss who had left his crew without commo.
If that is what he did, he was a primary casual factor in the deaths of those wildland firefighters because dope smoking inmates or not, they still deserved to be treated as good as all other WWF. The crew boss would have done this to cover his ass so he could answer calls, but in doing so he left his crew exposed to danger which directly resulted in their deaths.
If that is what happened, I would have recommended in the strongest possible terms that he be prosecuted for manslaughter. I know this is going to rub most WFF the wrong way, but until that starts happening, those who are in charge of keeping WWF safe, who may not be my kids or yours, but they sure are as hell somebody’s kids, supervisors will keep making decisions based on their own personal interests while violating too many safety rules.
As I have said before, why should WFF be immune from prosecution for doing unforgivable stupid things that defy common sense and logic on wildfires while at the same time they are not immune from prosecution for doing criminally stupid things when they are not on a wildfire?
And if that makes some people quite being WFF’s, I say good riddance to bad rubbish, we (the tax payers) didn’t need them in the first place.
I agree.
Also not sure Inmates on a crew would be allowed
a Crew Radio. I don’t know if they even had Squad Bosses that were inmates??????
I am pretty sure that all of the inmate crews I worked around were all inmates except for their crew boss who was a Department of Corrections employee.
And I worked around con crews from most western states, except of New Mexico, their inmates are too fucking dangerous to be let out of the big house.
I also found most inmate crews to be good crews by and large when compared to other crews at their same organizational level which were Category II crews back then which I guess are Type II crews now.
I really get lost with all of the talk about Type 1A etc.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
January 24, 2016 at 4:52 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I don’t know if they even had Squad
>> Bosses that were inmates??????
Yes, they did.
From the USFS’s official FIRE LEADERSHIP website…
“The Dude Fire”
Version 3/10/09
Copyright © by Michael A. Johns
Payson Helitack 1968
Payson Hotshot Foreman 1971
Assistant U.S. Attorney 1974 – present
Prepared for the 2009 Dude Fire Staff Ride
Tenth Wildland Fire Safety Summit
International Association of Wildland Fire
and the NWCG Safety and Health Working Team
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr11/lsr11_Dude%20Fire_Mike_Johns_2009.pdf
On PDF page 47 ( of 88 pages )…
————————————-
The Perryville Crew had gathered around the water cans 3,300 feet from the Control Road to fill their canteens and had just returned to work at 1419 ( 2:19 PM ).
Squad 2 was working above Squad 1.
Squad 1 was working closer to the Control Road. Some of the squad members overlapped along the dozer line
Perryville Squad 1:
Squad Leader: James L. Denny (Inmate – Died)
Assistant Squad Leader: Fred Hill (Inmate – Survived)
Crew: James E. Ellis, William H. Davenport, Alex S. Contreras, Robert M. Carrillo, Patrick A. Flippen, Steven Pender and Tim Smith.
Perryville Squad 2:
Squad Leader: Geoffrey Hatch ( Inmate – Critically Injured / Survived )
Assistant Squad Leader: Donald R. Love ( Inmate – Injured / Survived )
Crew: Joseph L. Chacon, Glen A. Harder, Derrick E. Guy, Gregory Hoke, Norman Enriquez and Curtis E. Springfield.
—————————————–
Bob,
I have to claim ignorance on anything pre-2000 on the radios. Your ‘old’ may be showing but my ‘young’ and way fewer year of service is showing too. Your knowledge of the way it was is really appreciated.
Woodsman
My old has turned into a lot of cobwebs that I keep trying to clean out so not perfect memory at times.
Would love to be back at your age again and do it all over. I loved and Lived Fire the people the fight for control and the close friends although I still have those.
Take care out there. Make your memories good ones.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
January 24, 2016 at 12:14 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Also remember the Engine crew on the Yarnell
>> Hill Fire the Eng. Operator had to blow their siren
>> to get the crew off the line NO RADIO with the
>> Crew only the Eng.
Not true.
Yes… Peeples Valley firefighter Bob Brandon resorted to using the SIREN on his vehicle there near the Youth Camp to try and help RECALL the men out of Harper Canyon, but that was only AFTER he had tried to raise them on the radio but he said the NOISE of the fire was too LOUD to get through to them that way, at that time.
Brandon also reports that since it was too LOUD for the radios… he WAS also able to ‘TEXT’ them back there, proving they also had fully functioning cell/smartphones.
SIDENOTE: Bob Brandon also said he supplied copies of all these ‘text messages’ to ‘investigators’… but none of those have ever seen the light of day.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: A Narrow escape: Peeples Valley
firefighters recount that frightening day
Published: 6/30/2014 6:00:00 AM – By Joanna Dodder Nellans
http://dcourier.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=133345
—————————————————————
YARNELL – Bob Brandon and Ron Smith feel lucky to be alive after running for their lives from the Yarnell Hill wildfire.
Brandon was in shock when he got out of the water tender and looked up in the sky at about 3:45 p.m.
“The smoke and fire was going straight up and I thought, ‘Holy crap,'” he related. The flames on the other side of the 60-foot to 70-foot-high hill where ( fellow Peeples Valley firefighter ) Matt Keehner had stood ( as lookout ) were twice as high as the hill, and they were coming toward the firefighters.
“The heat was just tremendous, it was like waves,” he said. “All the tops of the trees just went ‘snap snap snap’ like that on fire.”
Brandon feared his fellow firefighters ( working farther west in Harper Canyon ) would have to deploy their shelters. The fire was TOO LOUD to TALK. In the midst of the chaos, he texted them and they said they were OK.
————————————
Bob Brandon: “The fire was TOO LOUD to TALK ( on the radio ). In the midst of the chaos, he texted them and they said they were OK.”
Captain Darby Starr ( from Sun City West ) was one of the ones out there in Harper Canyon and, according to HIS testimony, he definitely had a handheld radio that day.
From the SAIT’s Yarnell Investigation Notes ( YIN ) document.
NOTES for the Combined Interview with both…
Darby Starr (B103 Type 6 Captain)
Tyson Esquibel (Task Force Leader (t))
Interviewers: Godot Appuzo, Randy Okon
Just some of Captain Darby Starr’s ‘testimony’ to the SAIT…
——————————————-
“1430 – Tyson called him to go to the Shrine from Glen Ilen”
“Someone came over the radio on the command channel: Thunderstorms at Prescott with rain and hail.”
“Told my crew, if need be, take the dozer trail out ( of Harper Canyon )”.
“Last to leave with the ( Blue Ridge ) Hot Shots”
“( Blue Ridge ) Hotshots FRANTIC, one screaming to get out”
—————————————–
Peeples Valley Firefighter Ron Smith was also one of the FFs back there in Harper Canyon with Darby Starr and the others, and he reports listening to the 3 PM weather report either on his OWN handheld radio, OR on the one that Captain Darby Starr was known to have out there in Harper Canyon…
————————————
Ron Smith said he stopped for the hourly weather report at 3 and heard the wind was shifting to the east, but he never heard later that the wind shifted again to the southeast. “We didn’t think we were in immediate danger, or they wouldn’t put us in there,” Smith said.
————————————
Also… from Bob Brandon’s story ‘in his own words’…
Website: The Yarnell Hill Recovery Group
Page Title: Bob Brandon – Gets Caught in the
Firestorm, Helps Rebuild
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html
————————————————–
We didn’t have any radio contact with them ( back there ) because it was so LOUD. It was like being in the back of a jet aircraft on a runway.
I had an alarm that we had set up. I was going to turn the siren on and start pressing the siren so they could hear us, and that meant to abandon and come back and we’ll get out.
————————————————–
So Bob Brandon seems to be saying he defaulted to the SIREN when the FIRE sounds became TOO LOUD to successfully establish and/or maintain radio contact with the men back in Harper Canyon.
There is also this from ‘Bob Brandon’. regarding ‘pictures’…
—————————————————
My job was to map out the safety zone and send a lookout up on top of Boulder Mountain so we would have a zone to get back to and a lookout to tell them if anything starts going bad.
Probably mid-afternoon, the bulldozer came rambling through the woods. It kind of looked like Jurasic Park, knocking down trees, clearing a roadway. When it arrived at our location, I was just sitting by my tanker taking pictures of it because it was just kind of an awesome site.
—————————————————
SIDENOTE: Those PICTURES Bob Brandon says he took have NEVER been seen… even though he says he gave copies of everything he took to some mysterious set of ‘investigators’, just 48 hours after the tragedy.
So they herd their phone go off from texting and could not here their radio????????????
The also discussed plan was to blow the Siren if they needed to return to the Truck.
They were what less than a 1/4 mile from the truck and had no Radio Contact.
A roar like that should tell you one thing GET THE FUCK OUT OF THERE..
There seems to be some strange things here they were Texting but not able to talk on the radio ever or just when the fire blew up.
If you can not hear what is going on you should not be there.
Still sounds like they were on the State NIMS freq. Not the Fire
Freq.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
January 25, 2016 at 6:45 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> So they herd their phone go off from texting
>> and could not here their radio????????????
Smartphones can vibrate.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The also discussed plan was to blow
>> the Siren if they needed to return to the Truck.
Apparently so, yes… but none of the ‘sketchy’ interviews with anyone who WAS back there even included any confirmation that anyone HEARD the siren, either.
Captain Darby Starr says he decided to evacuate after feeling a ‘spritz of rain’… and then actually recalling some stories Tony Sciacca had told at the Arizona Wildfire Academy about what happened when HE ( Sciacca ) was there in Walk Moore Canyon at the 1990 Dude Fire.
Peeples valley FF Jake Mode said HE decided to ‘get out’ when he had a visual of flames coming over the ridge above them.
Captain Darby Starr won a VFW AWARD for his “heroic actions on the Yarnell fire… but other testimony attributes the ‘get out’ order as coming from Jake Moder, and NOT Darby Starr.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> They were what less than a 1/4 mile from
>> the truck and had no Radio Contact.
It is still not clear if there was a problem connecting… or the problem was being able to simply HEAR once connected.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A roar like that should tell you one thing
>> GET THE FUCK OUT OF THERE..
It did. At the SAME TIME Bob Brandon apparently attempted to contact them AND started sounding the SIREN… they were ( apparently ) already on their way out.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> There seems to be some strange things
>> here they were Texting but not able to talk
>> on the radio ever or just when the fire blew up.
There is still a LOT that is not known about exactly how things went down with the crew that was working in Harper Canyon… but ( apparently ) NOT having a RADIO ( as you suggested was true ) was NOT one of the ‘problems’.
WTKTT If the Radio was the State Radio that had no fire net on it and the only radio that did was in the Engine then they should not have been where they were.
Again LCES no lookout that could see them and the fire no Communications to adjoining forces.
As I said I think this was the same as the Dude Fire.
They were hooked in to their NIMS and not the Fire
Channel When they could not hear the Radio they should have pulled out. Texting is not a primary contact when on the line. Yes it is new age but you are not in contact with adjoining forces or the overhead nor can you receive weather Updates’
The failure of the 10 standard orders are running ramped here and no one on the crew even knew
it. No wonder they were part of the citations.
You missed the point you can have all the radios in the world if you cant talk and monitor the Fire or hear your boss if that was the guy in the Engine Then you should not be where you are at..
The 10—1,2,3,5,7 WTF
Now I am going to say one thing I have never had a problem hearing my Radio. I have worked next to saws, Tractors and yes been next to a fire going to shit like a low flying jet. Running a 20 man crew when things get dicey you rely on the Radio and you talk and receive over it.
So I am having a hard time believing they could not hear the Radio because of the fire.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> you are not in contact with adjoining
>> forces or the overhead nor can you
>> receive weather Updates’
Please reread the post above that had the information from the FFs testimony.
TWO of the pieces of information that DO exist to prove that both Captain Darby Starr and Ron Smith DID (both) have TAC channel capable radios out in Harper Canyon is because they DID testify they could hear the ‘Weather Reports’ coming from fire command that day.
Byron Kimball was broadcasting his ‘weather reports’ on TAC 1 that day… the same TAC channel being used by OPERATIONS.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Again LCES no lookout that could see
>> them and the fire.
Bob… this is now going to be about the THIRD time I have had to tell you the following.
The men working in Harper Canyon had THREE designated LOOKOUTS that day that were ALL supposed to be keeping an eye on them.
1. Matt Keehner… up on a rock pile on the north side of Harper Canyon. Assigned to that duty by Peeples Valley fire Captain Bob Brandon.
2. Another Sun City West engine stationed out at the end of West Way about 1/2 mile southeast of the Youth Camp area, and with a GOOD view of Harper Canyon and the ridge just to the north of it. Assigned to that ‘lookout’ duty by TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel.
3. SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself. Assigned to that duty by HIMSELF.
All THREE of these ‘designated lookouts’ completely FAILED in THEIR responsibilities that day.
The men working in Harper Canyon received NO WARNING from ANY of these designated lookouts ( Gary Cordes included ).
It was only when they noticed for THEMSELVES that the fire was coming roaring over the ridge that they realized they needed to get the hell out of where they were.
Not much else I can say to you.
The weather is put out on both tack and the State freq. from the weather service.
How ever we still have a critical question.
You do not rely on other lookout who can not see you and you can not see the fire and also can not receive any transmissions from them.
They put their trust in some things that almost cost them their lives.
1. They trusted their assignment was ok because the over head would not put them in harms way.
2. They trusted lookouts that could not see them and their needs.
3. They relied on a person at the Engine to tell them if there was a problem he could not see them was not a lookout and could only talk to them by TEXTING.
Come on you been around this discussion long enough to figure out this crew was in deep shit
and had a very close call.
The Engine was told to get out the crew never got that warning until they herd the siren.
where was all the 3 lookout warnings???????
You have unburned fuel between you and the fire WATCH OUT.
If you do not have communications and a lookout GET OUT.
They saw severial warning signs but no one contacted them to leave??????
Were they in contact with any of the lookouts????? Critical
So for the sake of argument lets say they had
TAC on their radio.
They could not hear any one because of the noise of the fire and still went back to ass and elbows and did not leave even though they lost contact with the LOOKOUTS and none with their Truck.
TIME to haul ass which would have been way before the Panic siren went off.
Not much else I can say to YOU, either, on this particular topic.
You are ASSUMING way too much.
See above.
We DO NOT KNOW what the full story is with these men that were working in Harper Canyon.
ALL of the Unit Logs, testimony photographs and text messages collected from Bob Brandon, Ron Smith, Jake Moder and the other Peeples Valley firefighters who were working out there are known to have been ‘collected’ by some mysterious set of investigators ( have to assume Arizona Forestry people ) just 48 hours after the incident… but NONE of that ‘evidence’ has ever seen the light of day.
The SAIT apparently did interview Captain Darby Starr… but the ‘notes’ from his interview are sketchy, at best.
ADOSH never interviewed Darby Starr.
We still don’t know the actual TIMING on any of what happened.
We still don’t know if they actually HEARD the Siren or not.
We still don’t know why the Sun City West crew that was supposed to be acting as their lookout ( and DID have a GOOD view of both the area they were working in AND the ridges beyond them ) never WARNED them about ANYTHING.
We still don’t know why Gary Cordes, who was also one of their designated lookouts, also never gave them any WARNINGS.
My whole point up above was that your original CLAIM ( also up above ) that they did NOT have any RADIOS with them very much appears to be a FALSE claim.
I do not believe I said they did not have a Radio
My understanding originally was they had set up to use the Siren as Como to get back to the truck.
My original statement was I felt they only had a State Tac Channel on State Radio not fire Tac.
There for they could not communicate directly with Lookouts or Fire staff.
Making no false clam’s here just searching evidence If you want to continue our discussion QUIT BEING A FUCK HEAD!!!!!!
This is a discussion not a Got you game which you seem to be more happy with.
They had no como with their Lookout for what ever reason that is the key to this discussion.
Finding out the why may have varied explanations.
No contact for any reason means a broken leg in the LCES Stop move to safety and regroup
They did none of that OK
Reply to Bob Powers post on
January 26, 2016 at 5:21 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I do not believe I said they
>> did not have a Radio
>> On January 24, 2016 at 12:14 pm,
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> NO RADIO with the Crew only the Eng.
After you cleared that up My next and continuing replies spoke to your assumptions that in fact they had a Fire Tack channel on the line.
Assuming because they herd the weather forcast on Tack that meant the main fire channel.
1. The weather is also given out on the State NIMS fire channel as well SOP
2 They had NO como with any of the Look Outs.
3. For some reason they could not hear their Radio if any one was calling them.
4. No one else seemed to have that problem.
5 Because of their radio problem they had a back up BLOW THE SIREN AND WE WILL COME TO THE TRUCK.
You have assumed a few things yourself.
Because 3 lookouts were assigned they were in direct communication with the Engine and Crew.
Dose not seem so
Those are facts not assumptions.
1. You assume they had contacts with 3 lookouts when they had contact with none.
2. The person at the Engine says nothing about a radio call from any of the 3 Lookouts to evacuate.
3. He was told by a person in a truck to evacuate what happened to all these lookout that were suppose to notify all the FF on that peace of line.
4 This crew was never warned by any lookout
to evacuate. No testimony to that affect.
So I am still questioning their Radio contact and ability to monitor the Tac frequency of the fire.
Thanks RTS–This story goes to show how often and what lengths people go to cover their asses and how little the bosses respected the lives of those men. The prison guards perhaps had more control over their subjects but not much if you consider the circumstances in either case. Here, outside the confines of a prison authority we have the confines of another authority with ominous threats should the civilian wild land fire fighter go against the desired narrative. The civilian firefighter has plenty to loose and plenty reason to refrain from comment especially if it is criticism. Offhand some things he can suffer loss of includes, friends, family, prestige as a wild land fighter, his means of livelihood, the chance of being blackballed from wild land fire fighting jobs, probable demotion, facing the disdain and anger of bosses, home problems related to loss of job, and I am sure more can be listed. ( These should be his or her’s these days of physical equality of sexes.)
We were fortunate to have some of the prisoners that worked on the Yarnell Hill Fire to do defensible cleaning around our cabin. I am certain those men worked every bit as hard on the line as they did for us. We learned much about their part on the fire and I commend them for their efforts. Six were on top of the mountain working the fire but since the fire was moving they were not able to contain it. To little too late.
The next day on Sunday morning we saw the efforts of the GMHS crew. We watched a small plane dump retardant. It was dumped so high up that the retardant was thinly spread. Since the men were in a depression we could not see the hundred yards or so they had cut down off the two track and down toward the old grader. But we did see them at ease for some time on the two track. Joy has some photos of that. When I had seen how the observer copter of yellow and white fanned the fire early on, the men at rest, then the feeble retardant release, I told Joy that these people are doing a controlled burn. To me it did not appear that they were really making any concentrated effort to get this thing out. Then by 11-1:30 it was obvious that there was no chance of even an army of fire fighters getting it out. It was gone and the fireman’s saying “LET THE BIG DOG EAT” truly was in order.
That was indeed time to depart from the scene. When Marsh or Steed said we are safe in the black send the BR he was looking at what we were seeing–a fire gone wild and thunderstorms in the background. Who would help that man change his mind and why would anyone take that challenge against all odds? Those are questions yet unanswered and the lies that have been perpetrated have only added to the confusion.
**
** TWISP UPDATE
**
** SURVIVOR DANIEL LYON NOW SAYS…
**
** “NO ONE IN CHARGE COULD HAVE CHANGED WHAT HAPPENED”
The Seattle Times
Article Title: Twisp wildfire survivor says he’s improving day by day
Originally published January 20, 2016 at 7:33 pm Updated January 21, 2016 at 11:34 am
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/northwest/twisp-wildfire-survivor-says-hes-improving-day-by-day/
From the article…
——————————————————
Injured firefighter Daniel Lyon Jr. was back at Harborview Medical Center this week, partly to check in with doctors, but mostly to get on with his life.
The young man who survived last summer’s deadly Twisp River blaze traveled from his parents’ home outside Missoula, Mont., to allow experts to track his progress as he heals from burns that covered nearly 70 percent of his body.
Slowly, he’s recovering from the Aug. 19 wildfire accident that claimed the lives of three buddies: Richard Wheeler, 31; Andrew Zajac, 26; and Tom Zbyszewski, 20, who died of smoke inhalation and burns.
“I miss all of them on a daily basis,” he said.
Lyon, who was released from the hospital in November, now spends five to six hours each day in therapy — physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy. He works hard to battle the scar tissue and contractures, a condition that causes shortening and hardening of the muscles, tendons and other tissue.
And Lyon said he’s coming to terms emotionally with the accident that altered everything in an afternoon.
“What happened that day was Mother Nature showing her fury,” he said.
“No one in charge could have changed it.”
——————————————————
USFS employee Daniel Lyon and the three other USFS employees who died were sent to work up a private road, ABOVE a dynamic, uncontained wildfire, to protect EMPTY houses.
No matter what assignment a WFF is given, The WFF Rules ALWAYS apply.
“What happened that day was Mother Nature showing her fury,” he said.
“No one in charge could have changed it.”
What bullshit!
What happens everyday on every fire is basic to complex physics. It has nothing to do with the pagan belief of ‘Mother Nature.’
“No one in charge could have changed it.”
More bullshit and belief in FATALISM, that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them.
If that was the case, then why do we have WFF Rules, Rules of Engagement, Chain of Command, Leader’s Intent, and scores of other things to make good decisions?
How can you have this kind of attitude and actually fight fires safely? It doesn’t matter with this kind of attitude.
It’s like “Oh well, no matter what we’re going to do today, we’re likely to get killed. I hope we get LUCKY.” Pure bullshit and dangerous!
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on January 19, 2016 at 9:28 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> As WTKTT has said, ‘if Marsh had enough time to go to the GMHS, then they
>> had enough time to get out to the BSR to safety and live.’
That’s not what I have ever said.
That makes it sound like I am in the ‘Holly Neill’ camp and I believe Marsh had, in fact, made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch that afternoon.
That is not the case.
I ( me, personally ) do not KNOW if Marsh ever really made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch that afternoon.
No one does. Not really. Not YET.
As we were discussing the ‘push’ versus the ‘pull’ theory way back when… and just waiting for one of the THREE separate attempts to interview Brendan McDonough to ( perhaps ) provide some more ‘evidence’… I always said that if there was ever any additional evidence that might prove Eric Marsh really WAS anywhere ‘out ahead’ of Steed and the Crew that afternoon… that that was going to RAISE more questions than it might answer.
Some of those ‘new’ questions would also turn out to be ‘disturbing’.
And now that Brendan McDonough has seemed to CONFIRM the ‘pull’ theory in that softball interview he did with Bill Gabbert over at Wildfire Today… that remains the case.
And yes… ONE of the ‘disturbing’ new questions related to the ‘pull’ theory is that wherever Marsh was out ‘ahead’ of those men that day… if he had time to get to THEM… then that also means THEY would have also had the TIME to get wherever HE ( Marsh ) had been.
So what I have always said was simply…
“WHEREVER Marsh was out ahead of them that afternoon, then physics itself says that if Marsh had the TIME to make it back to THEIR location when the shit started to hit the fan… then THEY ( Steed and the CREW ) would ALSO have had the same amount of time to make it to wherever Marsh had been out ahead of them.”
That MAY have been all the way to the BSR, but maybe not.
Since July 1, 2013, it is fairly common knowledge in the WFF world that Marsh was at least NEAR the BSR the afternoon of 30 June 2013.
And in the MacKenzie video clips, Steed is describing the fire behavior and fire location to Marsh because he knows that Marsh is down below and cannot see the fire from his location. Otherwise, Marsh would have said something like “copy, that’s what I see or what I have been watching.
Remember, there were many FF and WFF that day that were monitoring the GMHS Crew Net frequency.
Willis even admits to this in the July 2013 New Conference video. He said “… we were able to monitor the radio frequencies …” and they had completed their assignment and were heading south to protect structures (paraphrasing out side quotations).
And thanks for clarifying what you posted about this. I searched for it but was unable to find it, and that’s why I posted what I did.
I am ready to BELIEVE that Marsh MIGHT have gotten near the Boulder Springs Ranch before the shit started to hit the fan out there… but I just wanted to clarify that there is still no EVIDENCE he did.
Calvin has suggested that Marsh might have reached one of those ‘mounds’ to the WEST of the BSR and might have even been up on one of them right around the time he decided to go BACK to ‘find’ Steed and the crew ‘out there somewhere’.
I would tend to believe that as well… but again… there is no PROOF of it one way or the other.
Not yet, anyway.
WTKTT,
You make such a big deal of the ‘EVIDENCE’ and ‘PUBLIC EVIDENCE’ and that’s good but only TO A CERTAIN POINT.
There are scores of reports and ‘factual’ and otherwise investigations and the like where the alleged ‘evidence’ is entirely false, fabricated, coerced, etc., made up to fit the Investigation Team’s ‘story line.’
It means something to me, but not really that much. I have not trusted the investigative process since the 1985 Butte Fire and the 1990 Dude Fire.
I always dig much deeper and still find things even years later.
And regarding the intractable ‘Gag Order’ BS, here is a YouTube clip on the Cramer Fire (ID SCF – July 20, 2003) Staff Ride during the Integration Phase, where you get to express your feelings, emotions, conclusions, etc.
At 24:55 it’s titled “WE CAN FINALLY TALK ABOUT IT.’ Kelly Close. a Colorado FD employee and the SAIT Fire Behavior Analyst admits that he was the ONLY non-Federal person on the Investigative Team and so he felt that he was really the only one that could talk about it. And that this Staff Ride nine (9) years later was a “huge sense of relief and finally we can talk about it.” “It was taboo [to talk about it] …”
There is a lot of discussion and dialogue with Cramer Fire participants regarding the Agency-imposed order(s) to keep quiet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksMXpJXjj44
Reply to Robert the Second post on
January 23, 2016 at 10:31 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> You make such a big deal of the ‘EVIDENCE’ and ‘PUBLIC
>> EVIDENCE’ and that’s good but only TO A CERTAIN POINT.
>>
>> There are scores of reports and ‘factual’ and otherwise
>> investigations and the like where the alleged ‘evidence’
>> is entirely false, fabricated, coerced, etc., made up to fit the
>> Investigation Team’s ‘story line.’
I know. We, here, have been ‘looking’ at such an ‘investigation’ ( cough, cough ) from day one.
But I’m not sure how to ‘parse’ what you are saying with regards to the “TO A CERTAIN POINT” reference.
I think we’ve done a pretty good job hear, already, of separating the FACT from the FICTION of some things that WERE released by the SAIT in response to FOIA requests and whatnot.
We have even done a good job here of PROVING that there is a LOT of evidence that still remains to be released, and has-been/is-being illegally withheld from valid FOIA requests.
My mantra is still… TRUST… but VERIFY.
Also… that’s an interesting phrase up above.
“It was taboo [to talk about it] …”
Merriam Webster
TABOO – adjective ta·boo \tə-ˈbü, ta-\
:: not acceptable to talk about or do.
I searched the Federal websites and I couldn’t find the TABOO form that employees might have to sign.
I am still with Gary on this one.
If there are GAG orders in place… then let’s hear more about them, and what FORM and MANNER they were ‘officially’ administered to the people who *think* they are ‘under one’.
I believe there are an awful lot of people who ‘know things’ and the EXCUSE they give for not coming forward is that “I’m under a GAG order”…. when there really might not be any such thing.
They are just AFRAID ( of something… who knows what ).
In a country that values free speech and has taken the trouble to codify it into their founding documents… and in a ‘profession’ that is SUPPOSED to be filled with people that have COURAGE…
…there seems to be an awful, awful lot of CHICKEN-SHIT going on.
And by the way… speaking of the EVIDENCE that is KNOWN to be in the possession of Arizona Forestry but has never seen the light of day…
What about that MEETING that was SUPPOSED to take place between Arizona Forestry and the families of the victims that was PART OF THE SETTLEMENT with (just) those families being represented by Prescott Attorney Pat McGroder?
Anyone hear if that PROMISED “Question and Answer” meeting ever took place… or ever WILL?
From the Settlement press conference…
———————————————————
+37:05
( Reporter 1 ): This settlement is occurring WITHOUT the sworn testimony of Brendan McDonough… and… are you… are you content with that?
( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ): This one’s in your (world). ( It’s about Brendan ).
+37:13
( Pat McGroder ): Uh… I’ll answer that question.
Uh… at some time… uh… Mr. McDonough may or may not chose to publicy describe what he saw… what he heard that day.
Uh… Mr. McDonough has an attorney at this point in time.
But in terms of today… whether it be Mr. McDonough or the Blue Ridge firefighters… the purpose of today was to let YOU know of the enormity of the commitment that State Forester Whitney has made to sit down with our families… at great lengths… at great expense… and answer their questions, describe what happened… whether it be informally or formally… or in the case of a… a ‘ride’.
So we’re very comfortable in terms of the commitment to the State Forester.
———————————————————
One more time…
“…to let YOU know of the enormity of the commitment that State Forester Whitney has made to sit down with our families… at great lengths… at great expense… and answer their questions”.
As Government employees we were told that we actually LOSE some of our basic rights of Free Speech.
Courage on the firelines and courage off the firelines are two separate things. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Watch the Cramer Fire Staff Ride video (link above) and LISTEN to those employees and the fear they expressed regarding keeping their mouths shut and NOT talking about what happened.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on January 22, 2016 at 6:37 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Since July 1, 2013, it is fairly common knowledge in the WFF
>> world that Marsh was at least NEAR the BSR the afternoon
>> of 30 June 2013.
Nice to finally see that ‘qualifier’ there, which you omitted from your recent allegation.
“Common knowledge ( in the WFF world (only) )”.
For the rest of us… all we still have to reference is the PUBLIC evidence record.
That (current) body of PUBLIC evidence still gives no indication at all WHERE Eric Marsh might have been at any particular moment that afternoon following the estimated time of about 3:45 PM, when he appears to have taken off to the SOUTH ( according to Brendan McDonogh on August 31, 2015, only about 4+ months ago ) to “scout ahead for the crew”.
So tell me if I wrong ( I’m sure you will )… but you seem to be ‘inferring’ now that you have talked to others who were listening to the GM Crew Net… and there WAS some kind of clearer indication of how far he’d gotten that afternoon that took place over that radio frequency… but which is still not part of the evidence record?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And in the MacKenzie video clips, Steed is describing the fire
>> behavior and fire location to Marsh because he knows that
>> Marsh is down below and cannot see the fire from his location.
Based on the (current) evidence record, Eric Marsh couldn’t have been more than 10 minutes into his ‘scouting mission’ to the south before we hear him conversing with Jesse Steed in the MacKenzie Video clips. Where 10 minutes travel time from the anchor point area would have put him is anyone’s guess… but yes… as calvin originally pointed out on this forum… the REASON Steed was probably giving that “It’s almost made it to that two-track road we walked in on” fireline location report to Marsh was because Steed himself wasn’t sure WHERE Marsh was, at 3:55 PM, or whether Marsh could see what he ( Steed ) was seeing.
We don’t hear Steed say anything about fire ‘behavior’, per se. Nothing about flame lengths, etc. Only location at that time.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Otherwise, Marsh would have said something like “copy, that’s
>> what I see or what I have been watching.
He still might have ( said something like that ).
You are assuming too much there about the second of those two 9 second MacKenzie video clips.
The clip CUTS OFF right after Steed says “I copy… and it’s almost made it to that two-track road we walked in on”.
We have NO IDEA what Marsh’s response was, if any.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Remember, there were many FF and WFF that day that were
>> monitoring the GMHS Crew Net frequency.
See above. Are you being ‘deepthroat’ again and trying to ‘sneak’ in another ‘hint’ that you know things that have yet to be revealed… even by YOU?
That people can CONFIRM simple things like what Marsh *might* have actually said to Steed after the exchange described above, or that he DID, in fact, indicate his own location sometime after 3:45 PM and before the deployment?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Willis even admits to this in the July 2013 New Conference video.
>> He said “… we were able to monitor the radio frequencies …”
>> and they had completed their assignment and were heading
>> south to protect structures (paraphrasing out side quotations).
They never completed their original assignment.
They went ‘tools up’ at the same time Brian Frisby was rescuing Brendan McDonough, and they never finished what they were doing… so Willis has always been mistaken about that.
We also can CLEARLY hear for ourselves Eric Marsh telling some mysterious person, at 4:13 PM over a TAC channel, that Granite Mountain was headed SOUTH, and using the “escape route from this morning”.
No one needed a radio programmed to the GM Crew Net frequency to hear THAT particular blurb coming from Eric Marsh.
Just hearing that word “SOUTH” is no specific indication that someone had access to the GM Crew Net radio channel.
I would suggest we all take a deep breath and see what JD releases as he said very soon,
WTKTT it may just be what you are looking for although I have no direct info
other than some one may have come forward do to some serious talking and
agreement by JD.
JD has been working behind the scenes and talking with many different people including Family members.
Now Ill ask you one simple question——-
Go back check and tell me if their was ever any discussion about an Escape route .during the briefing—– “escape route from this morning”—–?????????
Or did they just discuss the Bomb proof BSR Safety zone???????
My old brain cant remember the details so I’ll leave it to you.
As far as I ( me, personally ) know… there is NOTHING in the PUBLIC evidence record to indicate that Gary Cordes and Eric Marsh EVER discussed any SPECIFIC ‘Escape Route’ that morning, when Gary Cordes first pointed at Dean Fernandez’s iPad at the Yarnell Hill Fire station and told Marsh “That’s your pre-determined Safety Zone. It’s bomb-proof”.
And that also includes the (supposed) SECOND mention of the Boulder Springs Ranch, following that YFD briefing and Cordes ‘guided’ Eric Marsh out to the Sesame Clearing area and (supposedly) mentioned the BSR to Marsh again.
The BSR was not directly visible from that place at the top of the Sesame clearing area where Marsh parked his Supt. truck, but Gary Cordes told ADOSH he did “point in the general direction” and told Marsh “it’s over there”.
I am the one who has wondered many times ( and posted about it ) as to whether or not Gary Cordes EVER actually ‘drew his finger’ across that iPad that morning and ever even showed Marsh that two-track road/trail leading ALL the way from the ‘anchor point’ to the Boulder Springs ranch, and would later become known ( in the SAIR ) as the “alternate escape route”
** OR **
Whether Gary Cordes might have actually (also) drawn his finger across that same iPad map and said something to Marsh along the lines of…
“…and I suppose you could cut across whatever this country is right here to the west of that Ranch and use that as a short-cut”.
There is NO EVIDENCE that Gary Cordes did any such thing.
No one from ADOSH ever even asked him about ‘escape routes’.
They only asked him whether he’s the one that assigned Marsh that ‘predetermined Safety Zone”… and Cordes said “Yes”.
So it remains a mystery what Eric Marsh really meant when he is CLEARLY HEARD saying ( to some mysterious person yet to be identified ) at 4:13 PM that Grainte was heading “SOUTH” and using the (quote) “escape route from this morning”.
Since there is no evidence that Marsh and Cordes themselves ever talked about an ‘escape route’ at all… Marsh could have just been being his obtuse self and referring to a decision HE had made that morning, by himself, about what ‘escape route’ to use to get to the BSR.
Thanks for the follow up.
There was absolutely no predetermined escape route from the Fire to BSR.
There was a two track that was never scouted for access.
The route they took down that canyon was not in any since of the imagination a open access Escape route.
The primary goal of a safety Zone is to have quick and accessible flagged access. That is what is always trained not sure what GM thought or trained.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
January 23, 2016 at 9:37 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Thanks for the follow up.
You’re welcome.
If you have any similar questions, feel free to ask.
I’ll do my best to answer given my own time and circumstances.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There was absolutely no predetermined escape
>> route from the Fire to BSR.
As far we know… that is CORRECT.
The ONLY thing that was ‘predetermined’ was the DESTINATION. The Boulder Springs Ranch.
There is NO EVIDENCE that Cordes and Marsh EVER discussed ‘how to get there’ or ANY specific ‘escape route’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There was a two track that was never
>> scouted for access.
As far as we know… that is also CORRECT.
There isn’t even any evidence that Gary Cordes ever even made sure Eric Marsh was fully AWARE that this two-track/trail that ran SOUTH from the ‘anchor point’ actually ‘fetched up’ right near the Boulder Springs Ranch itself.
That’s the two-track/trail that is CLEARLY visible even just using ‘Google Maps’. ‘Google maps shows that trail leading right INTO the Boulder Springs Ranch which, in reality, was not 100 percent accurate… but pretty damn close.
And there certainly is NO EVIDENCE that anyone ( Gary Cordes, Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, anyone ) ever “scouted” that two-track/trail prior to their attempt to reach the Boulder Springs Ranch.
We have to assume ( in the ‘pull’ theory ), that that is why those men lost those precious minutes they would eventually need to stay alive that day.
The sad fact is that if Steed and the men had taken off to the SOUTH at the same time Eric Marsh did… they would probably still be alive today even with that ‘bad choice’ of trying to take that shortcut through that canyon.
The time it took Marsh to ‘scout ahead’, at that late point in the afternoon, BEFORE even ‘ordering’ Steed and the crew to ‘come down’ is the very time they needed to stay alive that afternoon.
In other words… even if Marsh knew damn well he was going to eventually ‘order’ Steed to bring them down… one of the FATAL mistakes on both their parts was not having the crew at least cover that distance between the ‘anchor point’ and the ‘descent point’ WHILE Marsh was ‘scouting ahead’.
That two-track SOUTH from the ‘anchor point’ to the ‘descent point’ is the part of the journey that didn’t even NEED any ‘scouting’. Steed could CLEARLY see that it went down to that ‘saddle’ above the box canyon right form the ‘anchor point’.
But there they ( Steed and crew ) sat… all the way back at the anchor point… waiting until sometime between 4:56 PM and 4:04 PM to even BEGIN the ‘journey south’.
That would turn out to be a FATAL mistake.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The route they took down that canyon was not
>> in any since of the imagination a open
>> access Escape route.
No, it was not.
By all definitions… that ‘second half’ of their chosen ‘escape route’ was a difficult cross-country BUSHWHACK, especially for 18 men trying to stay ‘single file’.
>> Bob Powers
>>
>> The primary goal of a safety Zone is to have quick
>> and accessible flagged access. That is what is
>> always trained not sure what GM thought or trained.
Even with the ‘shortcut’. they decided to take… what everyone ( even Marsh ) was referring to as “escape route” was just shy of TWO MILES LONG.
The “alternate escape route” was even slightly LONGER than that.
Just the sheer DISTANCE has always been a reason, in and of itself, to NOT consider that any kind of ‘Escape route to a Safety Zone”.
They ( Steed and the Crew, anyway ) were already IN the most logical Safety Zone they could be that afternoon.
And… as many have pointed out… you don’t use an ‘escape route’ to get from one Safety Zone to another. You can’t even call that an ‘escape’. That’s a ‘decision to LEAVE a valid Safety Zone and relocate… for some OTHER reason.
SIDENOTE: I actually don’t believe that even Gary Cordes had any frickin’ idea Granite Mountain would have been attempting that BUSHWHACK, even though he remains the only person in fire command interviewed by ADOSH that ADMITS to knowing they were ‘on the move’… and headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Astonishingly… even the ADOSH investigators never ‘followed up’ with Cordes even once he ADMITTED knowing that.
They never even asked HOW Cordes thought they might have been getting to where Cordes said he was sure they were going ( the BSR ).
Even when Captain Reyes became the one informing Gary Cordes of the deployment, when they ‘met up’ in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot… and Cordes’ immediate reaction was “BULLSHIT!… they’re in their bomb-proof safety zone”… I still don’t think Cordes had any idea ( at that moment ) that Granite Mountain had attempted this crazy BUSHWHACK in their attempt to get there.
We still don’t know HOW Gary Cordes thought they were ‘getting there’… since no investigator ever had enough brain cells to even ASK him that… but I really think Cordes’ just thought they were traveling all the way on that ‘two-track/trail’ that must have been showing that morning on that iPAD map when he was assigning the BSR to Marsh as the “predetermined Safety Zone”.
Feeling the need to CLARIFY something I said up above.
>> On January 22, 2016 at 10:42 pm, WTKTT said…
>>
>> It remains a mystery what Eric Marsh really meant
>> when he is CLEARLY HEARD saying ( to some
>> mysterious person yet to be identified ) at 4:13 PM
>> that Granite Mountain was heading “SOUTH” and using
>> the (quote) “escape route from this morning”.
>>
>> Since there is no evidence that Marsh and Cordes
>> themselves ever talked about an ‘escape route’ at
>> all… Marsh could have just been being his obtuse
>> self and referring to a decision HE had made that
>> morning, by himself, about what ‘escape route’ to
>> use to get to the BSR.
Just because there is no EVIDENCE that Eric Marsh and Gary Cordes ever actually ‘discussed’ an ‘escape route’… or ever ‘discussed’ exactly how Marsh should GET to the “Boulder Springs Ranch” from the anchor point if/when he might have needed to that day…
…doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Gary Cordes very well COULD have ‘drawn his finger’ over that map showing on Dean Fernandez’s iPad at that 7:00 AM briefing at the Yarnell Fire Station… and Cordes could have very well ALSO said to Marsh ( in regards to whatever Cordes was showing him at that moment )… “This is also your predetermined escape route”.
So when Marsh used that “escape route from this morning” phrase over the radio at 4:13 PM… Marsh *could* very well have been referring back to some ‘decision’ and some ‘route’ that both he and Gary Cordes had agreed on THAT MORNING.
The problem is that we still don’t know if that happened, or not.
NO investigator ( that we know of ) ever even ASKED Gary Cordes whether he had any kind of conversation about ‘escape routes’ with Eric Marsh at that 7:00 AM briefing or even out at the top of the Sesame clearing area.
Gary Cordes was ONLY asked if he was, in fact, the person that had assigned the Boulder Springs Ranch to Marsh as his “predetermined Safety Zone”.
And Gary Cordes ONLY said YES to THAT specific question.
He, himself offered no additional information or testimony regarding ‘escape routes’, and no one even asked that as a ‘follow up’ question during his ADOSH interview.
WTKTT,
I’m done playing your games trying to feed your insatiable cravings.
It is what it is and if that’s not good enough for you, I’m sorry.
You are NOT going to get what you are demanding from me. Try elsewhere
woops on at the same time and DITTO—-
Mr. Powers…
I answered your questions above, as you requested.
If you have any more. Feel free to ask.
Well… ya can’t blame a guy fer tryin’.
I swear… it really DID seem like a SIMPLE ( and to be expected ) followup question, given the gravity of the ‘story’ you want us to believe.
Just tell us a little more about the CIRCUMSTANCES of when this ‘information’ was imparted to you.
If the people who told that to you already KNOW you are ‘dumping’ their information here ALREADY ( like you obviously are )…I really didn’t think just supplying a little more about the circumstances of it would piss those same people off. I mean… why would it… as long as we still have no idea WHO they are?
Oh well. It was worth a shot.
WWTKTT-
I get you- I do. But I get RTS and Bob Powers spot and why I also have not added on topic and tell the ORIGINAL ONES to SPEAK UP because if RTS or Bob or me elaborate it will show who we spoke to and I think at times I wish God never guided me to have people WHISPER to me but not SHARE to the WORLD so I have to state if they do not elaborate on topics I get it…I get where you are too WWTKTT and I applaud you for keeping things organized to JUST public evidence yet there is MISSING ELEMENTS-
I get RTS and Bob on the 10&18 but it took me studying and reading and researching and gaining education and knowledge to GET THERE…please note EVERYONE is important on here as well as the WHISPERS who have the heart of a wizard of the oz lion and I feel sad when people say things to RTS that seem sworded and undeserved and I do not even know the man and I think the swings I read came from Gary calling someone a prick—I am so focused to quickly gathering evidence after my father died on him that I barely skim here this month but I try to see what’s up and the dialect of Sonny…
WTKTT – I am going to weigh in on the discussion regarding the veracity of the information being provided to us on this thread by RTS and Bob and your insistence that somehow this information be verified by you or someone else like you, or that you trust or what? And since I just love explaining things to you, I am going to give this one a shot.
I am going to focus on RTS because as Bob said, he had more than both of us and I can tell you that Bob has a lot more than me because I don’t have any. The few friends I had left from the old days in Fire, I either know or don’t think they are my friends any more, so I don’t have any of that kind of information.
1. I have repeatedly said on this thread that RTS is plugged into the matrix and that he is really smart which goes all of the way back to me telling that to EN in an email. Now when I say he is plugged into the matrix…I mean he is plugged into the matrix. He is the right guy, with the right background, with the right connections, with the right status and respect, in exactly the RIGHT place. Get it?
2. My problem is not the quality of his information, my problem is that I don’t think he has given us enough or as much as he could, but he says he has, so I think we are going to have to accept that because even if he is lying to us, which I do not think for one minute he is, there is nothing we can do about that anyway and that is not going to change no matter how many times you ask him.
3. I have said on this thread that I would never question his street creds as either a hotshot or as a WWF. That should mean something to you WTKTT given my track record here to attack or turn on anything or anyone I don’t agree with or like and I love to attack the system. If I say he is good….gee, he is probably solid fucking gold. Right? What am I missing?
4. You are not only asking for something you do not need, you are asking for something no one should give you…no matter who you think you are. You are not entitled to that information and you do not need it. You do not have to verify the actual source of information to run with it, you only need to verify the veracity of the person who is giving it to you.
5. When a special agent wants to get a federal search warrant, which unlike local and state search warrants cannot be written on a bar napkin that you drop by to get signed while you bullshit about your recent fishing hole with the local magistrate who may have been an insurance salesman before he got elected or appointed as the local magistrate. So…to get a federal search warrant signed by a federal judge that has been read and approved by an Assistant United States Attorney that gives the special agent the power to temporarily suspend the the fourth amendment to the U.S. Constitution that protected the citizens of the great nation of ours against unreasonable search (of the personal property, homes, offices, cars, HOMES and seizure of specific property is pretty well regulated and was of a really big concern to our Founding Fathers given the track record the British Crown had about violating those rights anytime the mood struck them without any process or consequences for doing so. So they nailed that one down pretty tight so it just doesn’t happen at the federal level without some really tight constraints OK? That search warrant give the federal agents the power to go into your home, take over full control of your home, sit you down and tell you not to move or tell you to leave your home while they search through everything in your life which can include tearing down the walls of your house just as long was whatever they are looking for could be there. They always use the bread box example but it has now escapes me what is supposed to go into the bread box so I will make something up. If the agents are looking for a chainsaw, they can’t look in your bread box because a chainsaw will not fit into a bread box. But if they are looking for some crack cocaine, well that can fit in your bread box and the drawer where your significant other keeps your sex toys. I don’t know why, but we almost always found those in the darnedest places. And to maintain full control of your home until they have had all the time they need to look for whatever it is they are looking for anywhere it could be and that could take a really long time and there is nothing you can do about it because they have a valid search warrant that has been reviewed by a U.S. Attorney and signed by a federal judge. And if you attorney shows up and he or she is polite and does not interfere in any way shape or form with the execution of the search warrant they may be allowed to sit next to you on the sofa just as long as both of you are good. And then they get to take anything with them when they leave just as long as it is identified as being something they can take, related to their investigation in some way, or they can articulate how it might or could be related to their investigation in some way. And those things are written, legitimately to include just about everything except for your significant others sex toys just as long as they leave you a receipt that tells you what they took. You don’t have to be home or even know they are there or have been there. They can call a locksmith if they are nice or just open your door with a knock-knock and then nail it shut (the premises had to be secured) when they leave with a copy of the receipt on your kitchen table and you can find out about it when you come home from a long week-end and then send a bill to the federal government tort claim office to get your front door and door jam after you have them replaced but don’t hold your breath until you get paid for the damages..
6. Now here are the basics of what it takes to make all of that happen. And one of my nicknames was Gary “Let’s Get a Search Warrant” Olson because that was my answer to every question. Just like everything looks like a nail to a hammer, every problem I had could be solved with a search warrant. I did lots of them.
a. You have to say who you are and what your title is.
b. You have to describe your education, training and experience.
c. You have to describe (give a PROBABLE CAUSE statement) what you are looking for and why you think it will be there.
1. An confidential Source of Information (SOI) told me what I am looking for would be where I want to look, This SOI is trusted by me because…(which basically says you know them, you have worked with before and how many times, why they know what you are looking for looks like and why they know it is where you want to look)
.
Whoops accidentally hit the button without ANY editing or before I was done, bummer. I thought the “Revenant” (on a scale of 1 to 10) was a borderline 11. My dear wife gave it a yawn, two thumbs down and a “Why did you invite me to go to this movie and why did you think I could possibly enjoy watching it, do you know how much time I wasted this evening on this fools mission?” Hmmmmm.
2. And then anything else you have to bolster your once again…Probable Cause Statement. Why something is more likely to be true than not. That is really a pretty low bar if you are looking at a good case or maybe even a bad case that might get better after you do a search warrant.
So…I Gary L Olson, have a BS degree, trained at FLETC, (uniform and investigators training programs plus specialized training) have been a special agent for x years, employed by, do solemnly swear and affirm as your affiant that an SOI I have known for x time, and have used on x cases, who is trusted by me and knows what widgets look like because he used to sell them saw the widget we are looking for and was identified by the words “This is a government widget”, it is bright orange and the approximately 2″ by 3″. The SOI saw this widget yesterday on a dresser in the master bedroom when he went in to that bedroom for any purpose (just as long as you didn’t send him to go do it) like he was burglarizing the house, yesterday at 1500 hours and based on my experience, we can expect to find this widget in the same place because people don’t move their widgets very often. So sayeth I.
Sign here
Judge signs here
US Attorney initials in the corner
Next step…your ass is grass. If down the road, you find out the agent lied about anything, then his or her ass is grass but that will be months or years from now and then the government will declare sovereign immunity and you can sue the agent for their house if they own one.
The U.S. Attorney doesn’t get to know the name of the SOI. The federal judge doesn’t get to know the name of the SOI and neither you nor you attorney get to know the name (probably) of the SOI
So if the United States Constitution can be temporarily suspend with nothing more than RTS is already offering you, why the fuck do you think you should be getting more? You are not the New York Times who is trying to meet some kind of in-house criteria for verifying sources before you run with a story are you?
Substitute RTS in place of the special agent and his sources in place of the trusted SOI, exactly what is the problem. You don’t have RTS’s real name? RTS can tell Bob who can tell you (us) and you have Bob’s real name. A special agent can get a search warrant for another special agent by following the above process except saying another special agent told me what I am telling you to PROBABLY BE TRUE, more likely than not. Not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, this is not a court of law and neither is a search warrant affidavit, it is a statement of probable cause. Substitute Arrest Warrant for Search Warrant and follow the same process and there goes your liberty, at least for awhile. Exactly what is the problem? Guess what, I have vouched for RTS and RTS has vouched for the SOI, that means I have vouched for the SOI.
You can take ANYTHING RTS tells you to the bank and cash it, it is good. If you won’t I will, because? He is plugged into the matrix and really fucking smart.
Quit pissing him and Bob off. OK? We are having a pissing contest, but we can do that because we are old bulls who are more or less in the same pasture and go back about 40 years. Nobody has the slightest idea who you are. Except you are apparently a male and you are not John Dougherty.
And since I didn’t edit the last one because I hit the button accidentally, i am not going to edit this one either. Take if for whatever it is worth. .
Just remembered the “bread box” story.
“If whatever you are looking for is bigger than a bread box, you can’t look in the bread box for it. If whatever you are looking for is smaller than a bread box, you can look in the bread box for it.”
Gary while we are doing detective work a few additions.
To get to Probable Cause (PC) we must go thru an investigation to lead us to a search warrant and an arrest.
PC takes a lot of ground work following good leads, Reliable information from reliable sources to get to the Facts. Never ignore the information you turn up
Process it as a lead to the next step.
You very seldom get all the answers with the first reliable information it only is there to lead you to the next.
When you have put to gather the pieces which are
Who, What, Where, When, Why and How
I would consider RTS and my self as providing some of those links that say here are some clues from some Witnesses that are in some ways my inside perp’s and they need protected so I can keep getting their inside information.
Reliable information that may sit for some time as you search for more clues until you finally reach the PC and the evidence is all linked.
PC for a search warrant some times turns up nothing and some time makes your case.
You never involve your street sources in the final case if you want to have help from them again.
Probably missed something but I think you get the drift.
WTKTT needs to under stand these basics of investigation
The sources are witnesses not the perpetrator of the illegal activity. Some witnesses will come forward some will not and some are protected reliable sources that are used to build the case. but never used to provide evidence in a court.
We have been building information from many sources through out this
Investigation many have led us to answers and their names were never posted here. yet their leads moved us to Quantifiable information.
The argument
The time reports/mandatory time off.
The Toxicology report VS the party drinking the night before the Fire.
The fires that the Crew was sent home from, Marsh and crew when he was a Squad boss drinking and Drugs.
The performance evaluation by Willis.
All of these things build a story about what may have lead to the final out come. No stone should be left that has not been turned over.
The word from the street is we have to go here.
I believe it to be true based on my protected sources to build my PC.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-323736
I messed up my access hope this keeps it here.
What if you are actually LOOKING for a ‘Bread Box’?
That’s a good one. That comment shows just how clever you really are, but it does not change anything I said below. It simply adds to what I said.
Sorry… Gary… I normally have the time to read all of your rants but I coudln’t make it through that one today. Not enough time today. Maybe later.
Regarding RTS…
Let me be clear… I ( me, personally ) do not CARE who he ‘really is’.
The whole thing with EN trying to ‘out’ him sometime way back was just ‘noise’ to me.
If he wants to say who he really is, that’s his business.
What I DO care about is what can be considered EVIDENCE… and what remains simply in the category of RUMOR that NEEDS ‘more evidence’ to establish it as FACT.
I don’t care if RTS really is some guy who really does have the ability to hang around behind the port-a-potties at (current) fire camps and listen to what ‘unnamed’ FFs are saying to each other while they take a shit.
That still doesn’t give him the right to expect people on a PUBLIC forum to believe whatever ‘stories’ he chooses to post.
They MIGHT be true.
They MIGHT be bullshit.
They MIGHT be just part of an ‘agenda’.
Who knows.
This is the same guy who says he doesn’t even believe a person who was actually saved during the Yarnell fire is capable of remembering WHO saved him… and he calls ‘foul’ on that DIRECT eyewitness testimony… NAMES included.
So ( to use his his own phrase ) I ( me, personally ) won’t be willy-nilly / automatically ‘taking any trips to Abilene’, either, just because he posts another ‘story from behind the port-a-potty’.
He’s NOT going to say WHO was in the port-a-potties, even when he posts another story. I get it.
But if he wants his ‘stories’ to be generally accepted as the TRUTH… then he ( like anyone who assumes a ‘deepthroat’ role like he has ) has his OWN responsibility to find a way to get those ‘stories’ VERIFIED so that they really CAN become ‘common knowledge’.
TRUE ‘Common knowledge’ is when we ALL know WHO is saying WHAT about WHO, and where THOSE people are getting THEIR information as well.
WTKTT you did not listen to Gary.
If it fits in a bread box it is simple information.
If it dose not it is a lot of complex information like a puzzle that needs many pieces to complete the picture or information.
Your smart ass remark about hanging around behind Porta potties also indicates you have no fucking clue.
One more time RTS is speaking directly to FF who have been involved with and knew GM, Marsh and Steed. He is not picking up gossip he is giving us cold had first hand facts.
One more thing Gary did not mention–Many times your informant in an investigation gives you information that is protected. Good investigators use their informants to get to the facts and put people in court that will testify to those facts. On the street they are called perps. In this thread they are friends or other Wild Land FF that do not want to be drug into the discussion for severial reasons. Also even if RTS was not a friend I would believe his info based on his contacts, current job assignments and training assignments in R3. By the way I haven’t seen him since 1973 and only talked with him the past 2 years. He worked for me 1 summer 40 years ago I could not even tell you what he looked like then Or what position he was on the crew. Pulaski, shovel, Mccloud, swamper or Sawyer. For 21 years after that I have had a lot of people work for me many faces and names have gone into the darkness.
As Gary said he is still in the wild land FF world with a lot of contacts locally
in Prescott, State and County FS and BLM he personally knows all of the current HS Superintendents. The type 2 and Type 1 Teams in R3 ( Arizona and New Mexico) He has been assigned to Fires in the western US for the past 2 years as well as before and during 2013.
That makes him a highly qualified person to get information from.
So get your head out of the Portapotty and pay attention.
We are now hunting for puzzle peace’s that will come from all sources some with out names or addresses to keep them confidential. It has been over 30 month’s. If you think you can get the information RTS and I have with out us you are way above ignorant.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 22, 2016 at 5:33 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Your smart ass remark about hanging around
>> behind Porta potties also indicates you have no fucking clue.
It certainly does. It was MEANT to ( indicate that ).
You are absolutely right.
I really don’t have a ‘fucking clue’ WHERE this information is coming from. I don’t even know who the guy is who is posting it or (exactly) WHERE he is getting it.
That’s been my whole point for about the last half-dozen or so posts.
All I know is that THIS is the same guy who doesn’t even believe a DIRECT eyewitness account coming from Mr. Bryan Smith… and you guys think I ( me, personally ) am supposed to just accept whatever this mysterious guy posts here… coming from ‘mysterious sources’… just based on ‘your recommendation’?
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> One more time RTS is speaking directly to FF who have
>> been involved with and knew GM, Marsh and Steed.
And one more time ( from MY end of the conversation )…
WHO?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> He is not picking up gossip he is giving us cold had first hand facts.
Sez you.
I, on the other hand, need MORE INFORMATION before I am willing to drink that kool-aid and say he’s reporting ‘cold had first hand facts’.
I don’t know what else to say, Mr. Powers.
It’s admirable how you stick up for your friend… but I don’t know this guy at all… and I have a different set of criteria than you do for what I choose to call “verified facts”.
That really is all there is to it.
WTKTT,
What’s with the porta potty obsession?
Regarding the alleged ‘stories’ you claim I post, You posted:
“They MIGHT be true.
They MIGHT be bullshit.
They MIGHT be just part of an ‘agenda’.
Who knows.
“This is the same guy who says he doesn’t even believe a person who was actually saved during the Yarnell fire is capable of remembering WHO saved him… and he calls ‘foul’ on that DIRECT eyewitness testimony… NAMES included.”
They ARE true.
They are NOT bullshit.
They are NOT part of an agenda.
Why would I lie? What would I gain by lying?
What AGENDA do I allegedly have other than exposing the truth of what and why the GMHS fatalities occurred that day?
( Heavy sigh ). Let me come at this another way.
Whoever this was you were talking to ( I’m assuming multiple people since you characterized it as ‘common knowledge’ amongst whoever it was you WERE talking to )… where were they getting THEIR information?
In other words… did these people witness some kind of ‘incident’ ( together or separately ) which constituted absolute PROOF in THEIR minds that the two managers of a Type 1 Hotshot Crew were exhibiting a ( your words ) “GREAT DEAL of animostity and tension” towards each other in the timeframe immediately leading up to the tragedy in Yarnell ( which is, I believe, the timeframe in which you were placing your allegation. Doce fire forward? )
OR….
Were THESE mysterious people you were talking to just relating something to you that they, themselves, had ‘heard through the grapevine’, or something?
If these ‘mysterious people’ already know you are relaying what they have told you HERE on this PUBLIC forum… then I honestly don’t see how you providing a little more detail about the ‘circumstances’ of those ‘conversations’ is going to get you into any ‘hot water with your fire buddies’… if that’s what you are worried about.
WHAT were they basing THEIR ‘assumptions’ on, when they were telling YOU about this (quote) “GREAT DEAL of tension and anxiety” between these two men?
It feels like a simple question to me, and there are only a few possible (simple) answers as well.
An old saying we have been burned buy EN here for the details you want.
An old saying the DEVEL IS IN THE DETAILS.
the things you want could very well lead to the very people we or Here RTS is protecting. The facts spelled out could
give away the person or persons.
EN went head hunting thru our conversations over E Mail.
We do not need the same thing here.
JD would be the first to tell you he will not release name if the people want to remain anonymous.
If that’s not hard for you then TS and I are saying the same.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
January 22, 2016 at 10:22 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> the things you want could very well lead
>> to the very people we or Here RTS is
>> protecting.
“Protecting”… from WHAT?
>> JD would be the first to tell you he
>> will not release name if the people
>> want to remain anonymous.
And I’m about 94.2 percent certain that, depending on the content or the gravity of the information… JD ( or any journalist ) would also tell YOU that unless someone is also willing to go ‘on record’ about something… that LIMITS his ability to “tell the whole story” and increases the need for ‘corroborating testimony’.
By the way… I answered your questions up above about what is currently in the evidence record.
If you have any more… feel free to ask.
Went off the air last night I am not a night bird.
But thanks it was as I thought.
I strongly disagree with you.
This in not the place to prove a case BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.
This is the place to accept PROBABLE CAUSE that is presented by trusted established sources that are impeccable, in this example that is RTS.
I am solid gold and I say RTS is solid gold and he says his sources are solid gold, so what they say is solid gold until it has been litigated (where all sides of the argument can be presented and decided by a finder of fact but that is NOT here) and it is definitely not YOU..
YOU are the one who actually has no standing whatsoever here on this thread because NOTHING is known about you except you say you are a male and John Dougherty says he is not you.
Your technical expertise is the most single valuable resource this thread has, but you are nothing other than that. You are no different than any other technical and highly valuable resource than those who are on the front line, people like me, Bob and RTS always had access to use on behalf of the American people through the poser given to the U.S. Government by the American people to provide for their safety and well being.
If you can accept your role here, you are sorely needed. If you can’t accept your role here, go back to your cubicle and keep your fucking mouth shut because your are irrelevant to the process.
Heroes (doers) on the front lines need people like you, but you are a technical asset, not a hero (a doer).
If you want to upgrade your status to become a hero (a doer) or a finder of fact and a decision maker (a manager, a judge or a jury for example) please submit your resume on this thread and we the people will consider you for future openings in those positions here in this virtual task force command and control center..
Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. And since you haven’t had time to read my last rant, I am not going to waste my time typing another one to tell you WHAT Mike Dudley is, because right now without me (or somebody like me who is willing to do what I do comes forward) you really are completely fucking clueless about the process.
In fact, you are so clueless you don’t even know or understand what it is that you don’t know. That is the difference between you and me. I know what I don’t know and where and how to get it thanks to the literally the millions of dollars the American people have invested in me. As far as we know, the American people have nothing invested in you and it shows.
In other words, typing the response to tell me that you did not have time to read my comment took more time than reading my comment did and had you read it, and understood the information contained therein, your response would have been irrelevant because than you would understand why your response was truly what wasted your time because you are so clueless.
It is kind of like the test where the instructor tells the students to read the entire test before they answer any questions and then the very last question actually tells them to put their name on the test and turn it in and then go have a nice day.
You are the student who is still struggling as you work through the test after everyone else has already left the room. Wise up Mr. WTKTT.
Although stubbornness and arrogance is a common aliment among many of the contributors on this thread (especially me) WTKTT is taking those attributes to a whole new level. Therefore, I am not going to write my white paper right now at least, on exactly what Mike Dudley is.
But I don’t want to leave a comment I said last night hanging. So here is the Readers Digest version. I think most of the people from the WFF world, if not all who contribute here are the untouchables because of the caste system that exists in that world.
But that is not exactly right. Those untouchables are really the brain, heart, body and especially the backbone of the WFF world. People like Mike Dudley think they are the head and brains of that body, but they are in really just the assholes. .
WTKTT,
You posted: “This is the same guy who says he doesn’t even believe a person who was actually saved during the Yarnell fire is capable of remembering WHO saved him… and he calls ‘foul’ on that DIRECT eyewitness testimony… NAMES included.”
That is correct, one and the same.
Not calling “‘foul’ on the DIRECT eyewitness testimony … NAMES included” but merely questioning what he believes to be true.
There’s a wealth of research to indicate that this “weight [given to eye witness testimony] must be balanced by an awareness that it is not necessary for a witness to lie or be coaxed by prosecutorial error to inaccurately state the facts—THE MERE FAULT OF BEING HUMAN RESULTS IN DISTORTED MEMORY AND INACCURATE TESTIMONY.”
http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm
Moreover, the AZ Wildland Fire Academy FF of the Year Award certainly has a vetting process to verify the accuracy and truth of the ‘facts and circumstances’ supporting nominations for the award.
I would hope that they did their due diligence and this was accomplished.
And lastly, I admit that I do NOT want it to be true that Gary Cordes is lying. It makes no sense to me.
Well… until there is more ‘information’ about YOUR ‘information’… then who is to say your “THE MERE FAULT OF BEING HUMAN RESULTS IN DISTORTED MEMORY AND INACCURATE TESTIMONY.” concept isn’t fully in effect with regards to what YOU are reporting?
I know… you will stay say… the ‘who’ is ‘you’.
I say… TRUST… but VERIFY.
ESAD. You just don’t get it do you? You don’t want to get it either.
What don’t I get.
I’ve worked with PLENTY of CHICKEN-SHITS who were afraid to lose their jobs.
I’ve also worked with PLENTY of people who would be telling me things that were supposed to be TRUE… but once I took steps to VERIFY what they are saying… you own ‘principle’ above ‘kicked in’ and they were WRONG.
So what don’t I ‘get’?
I prefer to TRUST… but VERIFY ( me, personally, not speaking for anyone else, your mileage may vary, to each his own… yada, yada, yada ).
See new post above with you claims ( now ) about the Dude fire… and the same familiar question…
WHERE are you GETTING that information?
Reply to calvin post on January 13, 2016 at 3:49 am
>> calvin asked…
>>
>> WTK. Do you have any idea exactly how many aircraft or how many
>> gallons of retardant were dropped on the YHF between the time we
>> hear “Air support down there” and the time of deployment?
Actually… I do…
** THE SHORT STORY
In the 50 ( FIFTY ) minute period between 1549 ( 3:49 PM ) and 1639 ( 4:39 PM )…
7 ( SEVEN ) different retardant drops by 4 ( FOUR ) different aircraft.
Total retardant dropped: 15,460 gallons.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> As we know, there was no retardant lines placed to protect
>> Glen Isla or Yarnell in that timeframe.
That’s correct… unless you count that ONE ‘500’ gallon SEAT drop at 1633 out there in the ‘foothills’ to the northwest of Yarnell proper. By the time Thomas French, in ‘Bravo 33’, got down to the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire, the smoke column had already begun to ‘lay over’ and dropping retardant to the northwest of Yarnell was the only safe option remaining, at that point, for himself and the other pilots.
** THE LONG STORY
As it turns out… the following Eric Panebaker ‘notes’ are ACCURATE, and match what we hear happening in the full Air-To-Air radio channel capture for this same timeframe…
———————————————————————————————
1542 – Div A to AA? Wind shifted and the fire has burned through the retardant.
1540 – T830 on scene.
1549 – T830 drop.
1550 – T911, 20 mi. out, look at the town of Yarnell for drop.
1555 – T413 CL4, 125 drop speed. (rough estimate of drop time)
1606 – T911 in area, CL4, 150 drop speed.
1607 – T874 in area.
1615 – T911 split load, drop 1, 2000 gal left.
1617 – T911 split load drop 2.
1624 – T874 and T830 drops, close proximity to houses.
1624 – T413 in area.
1633 – T413 drop.
1640 – Possible deployment in division A, hold T910 drop.
1647 – Still can’t find people or get ahold of Div. A or Granite Mountain.
———————————————————————————————–
From the ‘L- Aviation – no redactions.pdf’ document in the SAIT FOIA information release…
———————————————————————————————–
PDF page 4 ( of 26 pages )
SINGLE ENGINE AIR TANKERS ( TYPE 3 AND 4 )
Call Sign: T830 – Model: AT-802 – Standard Config: 820 US gallons.
Call Sign: T874 – Model: AT-802 – Standard Config: 820 US gallons.
Call Sign: T413 – Model: Thrush – Standard Config: 500 US gallons.
AIR TANKERS ( TYPE 1 AND 2 )
Call Sign: T-911 – Model: DC10 VLAT – Standard Config: 12,000 US gallons.
Call Sign: T-910 – Model: DC10 VLAT – Standard Config: 12,000 US gallons.
———————————————————————————————–
There were only 4 ( FOUR ) aircraft that did any drops at all in that 50 ( FIFTY ) minute time period between 1549 ( 3:49 PM ) and 1639 ( 4:39 PM )…
SEAT T830, SEAT T874, SEAT T413 and VLAT 911.
T830 did a drop at the start of this timeframe ( 1549 ) and was able to ‘load and return’ to do a second drop in this timeframe at 1624. BOTH of those drops were on the NORTH side of the fire on that ‘project’ French was ‘finishing up’ in the Miner’s Camp and Model Creek Road area(s).
Same for T413. It did a drop on the NORTH end of the fire at 1555 and then was able to ‘load and return’ and became the ONLY drop that was ever attempted ( in this timeframe ) on the SOUTH side of the fire, in the foothills NORTHWEST of Yarnell proper.
VLAT 911 also did TWO drops, one right after the other, up on the NORTH side of the fire.
Even though Thomas French had TOLD Air Attack Rory Collins he was “headed that way” ( to the SOUTH side of the fire ) at 3:50 PM… French actually ended up using the newly inbound VLAT 911 and its WHOLE 12,000 gallons of retardant up on the NORTH side of the fire just to ‘finish off’ that project he had been working on up THERE.
So that’s 7 ( SEVEN ) retardant drops in this 50 ( FIFTY ) minute timeframe by 4 (FOUR) different aircraft.
So here are Eric Panebaker’s NOTES again… this time showing how MUCH retardant was dropped for each of the SEVEN drops in this timeframe…
———————————————————————————————
1549 – 00,820 gallons – T830 drop, NORTH side.
1555 – 00,500 gallons – T413 CL4, 125 drop speed. NORTH side.
1615 – 10,000 gallons – T911 split load, drop 1, NORTH SIDE, 2000 gal left.
1617 – 02,000 gallons – T911 split load drop 2, NORTH SIDE.
1624 – 00,820 gallons – T874 drop, close proximity to houses, NORTH SIDE.
1624 – 00,820 gallons – T830 drop, close proximity to houses, NORTH SIDE.
1633 – 00,500 gallons – T413 drop, in the foothils to the NORTHWEST of Yarnell.
———————————————————————————————–
Total retardant dropped: 15,460 gallons.
Followup ( 1 of 2 )…
** THE PANEBAKER AIR-TO-AIR-CHANNEL RECORDINGS
The following is a ‘summary’ of the Panebaker Air-To-Air radio channel recordings that cover this 50 ( FIFTY ) minute timeframe, ( from 3:49 PM to 4:39 PM ) showing that Eric Panebaker’s ‘drop’ notes were accurate.
NOTE: Except for some actual verbatim A2A channel traffic below… this is a SUMMARY of the captured radio conversation(s). This is NOT the actual radio channel conversation. The actual transcript for this timeframe is much longer than this SUMMARY. See the full VIDEO transcript for the FULL conversation(s).
** PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_1628_EP ENDS STARTS AT 1547:58 ( 3:47:58 PM )
** ( START TIME is taken from EXIF timestamp in the VIDEO itself )
+0:00 ( 1547:58 / 3:47:58 PM )
As VIDEO 20130630_1628_EP starts, French is talking to Tanker 830, advising him of where his next drop is going to be there on NORTH side of the fire. He wants him to tie into Model Creek Road.
+1:03 ( 15:49:01 / 3:49:01 PM )
Tanker 830 completes the drop
+1:27 ( 15:49:25 / 3:49:25 PM )
Tanker 830 departs the airspace on a ‘load and return’.
+1:51 ( 1549:49 / 3:49:49 PM )
Yellow and White Bell 407 chopper with registration N14HX comes on and tells Air Attack Rory Collins they’ve just been instructed to fly down to the ‘Weaver Mountain Helibase’. This is NOT the ‘helipad’ out there where Granite Mountain was. The pilot of N14HX is referring to an official ‘helibase’ used by Arizona BLM called the ‘WeaverMountain Helibase’, SOUTH of Yarnell.
** Here comes the critical 3:50 PM update from Rory Collins to Thomas French, in ‘Bravo 33’.,
** and the moment ( also at 3:50 PM ) when Thomas French TELLS Air Attack Collins he
** is, in fact, “headed that way” ( to the SOUTH end of the fire ). Thomas French would NOT
** actually “head that way” for another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes. French would end up WAITING
** for the inbound VLAT 911 to arrive… and would then use all 12,000 gallons of retardant
** in VLAT 911 on the NORTH side of the fire, in the Miner’s Camp / Model Creek Road area.
This section is ‘verbatim’ from the A2A radio channel recording…
+2:38 ( 1550:36 / 3:50:36 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550:38 / 3:50:38 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550:39 / 3:50:39 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550:56 / 3:50:56 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550:58 / 3:50:58 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1551:03 / 3:51:03 PM )
(B33 – French): Ground contact Alpha.
+3:10 ( 1551:08 / 3:51:08 PM )
(Tanker 413): And four one three is comin’ on scene… I’m on the south side of the ridge.
( End of VERBATIM channel traffic. Resuming SUMMARY mode )…
+3:15 ( 1551:13 / 3:51:13 PM )
French tells inbound Tanker 413 to ‘standby’
+4:12 ( 1552:10 / 3:52:10 PM )
Collins tells French he only has 10 minutes left.
+4:42 ( 1552:40 / 3:52:40 PM )
French tells Tanker 413 he has him in sight and he’ll be with him in minute.
+4:55 ( 1552:53 / 3:52:53 PM )
Inbound VLAT 911 is now in radio contact with French and he tells him to come in at six thousand five hundred… be he might ‘hold him’.
+5:27 ( 1553:25 / 3:53:25 PM )
French tells inbound Tanker 413 to ‘arm his tanks’ and he’s going to take him ‘right to work’.
French requests ‘coverage level 6’ and a ‘whole load’.
+9:01 ( 1556:59 / 3:56:59 PM )
Tanker 413 completes the drop there near Model Creek Road.
French tells him to ‘load and return’.
+9:33 ( 1557:31 / 3:57:31 PM )
Collins tells French he’s leaving the fire now.
+11:42 ( 1559.40 / 3:59.40 PM )
Media Helicopter ‘AIR 15’, associated with ABC 15 ( KNXV – PHOENIX ), arrives on the fire inbound from the SOUTH. Registration: N915HD ( Five Hotel Delta ). French clears him in at nine thousand five hundred and tells him he can go anywhere he wants to at that altitude.
+12:20 ( 1600:18 / 4:00:18 PM )
French tells Tanker 810 to come in at five thousand five hundred.
+13:25 ( 1601:23 / 4:01:23 PM )
VLAT 911 contacts French again, reminds him he is still ‘holding’ out there, and French clears him to ‘come in’ at six thousand five hundred.
+14:04 ( 1602:02 / 4:02:02 PM )
French tells VLAT 911 to ‘divert to the north’ and to head for the northwest corner of the fire. French has now decided he’s going to use VLAT 911 on the NORTH side retardant line instead of on the SOUTH side of the fire as he and Collins discussed before Collins left.
+14:26 ( 1602:24 / 4:02:24 PM )
French also tells the inbound Tanker 810 to meet him on the NORTHWEST corner of the fire ( in the Miner’s Camp Road, Model Creek Road area ). He tells Tanker 810 to get ready to give him a ‘full load’ at ‘level 6’.
+16:33 ( 16:04:31 / 4:04:31 PM )
Tanker 810 reports arriving at the northwest corner.
+17:16 ( 16:05:14 / 4:05:14 PM )
French starts a ‘show me’ with Tanker 810 on the northwest corner of the fire.
+18:25 ( 1606:23 / 4:06:23 PM )
French tells VLAT 911 he has him ‘in sight’ up on the NORTH side of the fire and asks him to go into an ‘orbit’ and ‘hold’ a few miles out to the WEST.
+18:35 ( 1606:33 / 4:06:33 PM )
French resumes his conversation with Tanker 810 and wants him to do a drop now.
+18:53
French give Tanker 810 ‘clearance’ to drop now.
+19:21
French now hears from inbound Tanker 874 and asks him how many miles out he is.
Asks him to hold at five thousand five hundred.
+19:58 ( 1607:56 / 4:07:56 PM )
Tanker 810 finishes its drop in the Model Creek Road area.
+20:16 ( 1608:14 / 4:08:14 PM )
French tells Tanker 810 to ‘load and return’.
+20:49 ( 1608:47 / 4:08:47 PM )
French clears VLAT 911 to ‘come in’ for a ‘show me’ run there on the NORTH end of the fire.
He asks VLAT 911 to get ready for a ‘coverage level 6’ and a ‘whole load’.
+23:45 (1611:43 / 4:11:43 PM )
French has finished the ‘show me’ with VLAT 911 and they decide to do a ‘live run’ now, but French now asks VLAT 911 to ‘dial it back some’ and do a ‘level 4’ to get ‘more length’.
+24:36 ( 1612:34 / 4:12:34 PM )
French and VLAT 911 start the ‘live run’.
+27:28 ( 1615:26 / 4:15:26 PM )
VLAT 911 finishes its drop. French tells pilot ‘Jack’… “Nicely done. You got any left?”
VLAT 911 pilot ( Jack ) says he has “about two thousand left”.
French tells him to “follow him around” for another drop in the same location.
+27:40 ( 1615:38 / 4:15:38 PM )
Inbound Tanker 830 has ‘checked in’ with French and French has told him to join Tanker 874 where he is already ‘holding’ about five to seven miles out.
+28:01 ( 1615.47 / 4:15.47 PM )
French tells VLAT 911 to keep ‘coming around’ for another live drop that should tie in where his last drop ended and ‘keep going’ from there.
+29:13 ( 1617:11 / 4:17:11 PM )
VLAT 911 finishes dropping its remaining 2,000 pounds of retardant.
French tells VLAT 911 to ‘load and return Phoenix’.
+30:03 ( 1618:01 / 4:18:01 PM )
French tells BOTH Tankers 874 and 830 to ‘come around’ and they are ‘cleared in’ at five thousand five hundred.
+31:23 ( 1619:21 / 4:19:21 PM )
French tells Tanker 874 he wants ‘coverage level 4’ and ‘whole load’.
+33:38 ( 1621.24 / 4:21.24 PM )
French tells Tanker 874 he’s taking him ‘right to work’.
+33:42 ( 1621:40 / 4:21:40 PM )
French tells both Tanker 874 and 830 they are going to ‘build line backward’ from where the DC10 just dropped.
+35:38 ( 1623:36 / 4:23:36 PM )
French tells Tanker 874 to go first, and tells Tanker 830 to ‘tag and extend’ on whatever 830 drops.
+36:15 ( 1624:13 / 4:24:13 PM )
Tankers 874 and 830 have both finished their drops.
+36:21 ( 1624: 19 / 4:24:19 PM )
Inbound Tanker 413 has now checked in with French. He is approaching Yarnell.
French tells him to ‘come in’ at five thousand five hundred.
+36:34 ( 1624:32 / 4:24:32 PM )
French tells both Tankers 874 and 830 to ‘load and return’.
NOTE: With the latest CD10 VLAT 911 drop, and then the additional ‘tag and extend’ with SEATs 874 and 830, Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ now seems satisfied with that ‘project’ he had been working on there on the NORTH end of the fire, so French now tells SEAT 413 “plans have changed” and French only now begins to turn his attention to the ‘east flank’ of the fire, down SOUTH towards Yarnell.
+37:10 ( 1625:08 / 4:25:08 )
French tells inbound Tanker 413 that ‘plans have changed’, and he wants him to meet him down on the SOUTHEAST side of the fire ( near Yarnell ). French is now ‘done’ with his ‘project’ up there on the north side and only now begins to turn his attention to the SOUTH part of the Yarnell Hill Fire, and Yarnell itself.
+38:15 ( 1626:13 / 4:26:13 PM )
French now knows that the other DC10, VLAT 910, is inbound and he tells Helicopter Five Kilo Alpha ( 5KA ) they are goint to be ‘working the east flank’ now, and he should be prepared to ‘hold’ dip operations.
+39:16 ( 1627:14 / 4:27:14 PM )
Inbound Tanker 413 tells French he is ‘coming up’ on the radio antennas on the southeastern side.
+39:50 ( 1627:48 / 4:27:48 PM )
French tells Tanker 413 that this is now his FIRST TIME down on the SOUTH side of the fire, and he asks him to ‘standby’ while he ‘checks it out’ and figures out what is even possible to do.
** PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_1628_EP ENDS AT 1628:12 ( 4:28:12 PM )
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
Followup ( 2 of 2 )…
** PANEBAKER CREW PAUSES TO CHANGE THE BATTERY ON THE
** CAMERA THAT WAS RECORDING THE AIR-TO-AIR RADIO TRAFFIC.
** THAT TAKES EXACTLY 2 MINUTES AND 39 SECONDS, AND THEN THE
** NEXT CONTINUAL AIR-TO-AIR RADIO CHANNEL CAPTURE
** BEGINS AT 1630:50 ( 4:30:50 PM )
** PANEBAKER VIDEO 20160630_1643 STARTS AT 1630.50 ( 4:30.50 PM )
** ( Start time taken from EXIF timestamp in the video itself ).
+01:18 ( 1632.08 / 4:32.08 PM )
French is now on the SOUTH side of the fire, and is just now passing the ‘white antennas’ south of Yarnell and leading Tanker 413 towards a ‘drop’ in the foothills to the northwest of Yarnell.
+02:24 ( 1633.14 / 4:33.14 PM )
Tanker 413 has completed a drop ( full load ) there in the foothills to the NW of Yarnell.French tells Tanker 413 to ‘load and return’.
+03:04 ( 1633.54 / 4:33.54 PM )
French now turns his attention to the newly inbound DC10 VLAT 910 which is inbound from Phoenix and ‘holding’ a few miles SOUTH of Yarnell. French tells him to get ‘set up’ for a ‘level 4’ drop, using his ‘whole load’, and also tells him to ‘standby’.
+05:34 ( 1636.24 / 4:36.24 PM )
Helicopter Five Kilo Alpha (5KA) informs French he is dropping his bucket near the dip-site to the north of Yarnell, and he is heading to Wickeburg for fuel.
+05:46 ( 1636.36 / 4:36.36 PM )
French tells VLAT 910 he is ‘cleared in’ ( to Yarnell ) at six thousand five hundred.
+06:05 ( 1636.55 / 4:36.55 PM )
French tells VLAT 910 that they aren’t going to be able to drop retardant where it is really NEEDED, because the column is now laying over, and that the upcoming drop will have to be to the NORTH of Yarnell itself.
+07:13 ( 1638.03 / 4:38.03 PM )
Helicopter 5KA tells French he’s dropped his bucket and is now leaving for Wickeburg to refuel.
+08:10 ( 1639.00 / 4:39.00 PM )
VLAT 910 tells French he now has French ‘in sight’ as he comes in from the south. French tells him to follow him into the Yarnell area for a ‘show me’ run.
NOTE: MAYDAY RADIO TRAFFIC STARTS: At this same moment, Jesse Steed is making his first pseudo-MAYDAY call on the Air-To-Ground channel.
+08:48 ( 1639.38 / 4:39.38 PM )
Helicopter Five Kilo Alpha calls French directly and tells him… “Bravo three three… you’ve got Operations calling Air to Ground. Sounds like they got somethin’ for ya.” This matches the exact time that we hear OPS1 Todd Abel also trying to contact John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ on the Air-To Ground channel… because of the frantic Granite Mountain radio traffic everyone is hearing over on that radio channel.
+08:54 ( 1639.44 / 4:39.44 PM )
French does not respond to that ‘heads up’ from Helicopter 5KA. He still seems completely unaware of the ‘deployment’ radio traffic over on the Air-To-Ground channel, and just calmly continues his ‘show me’ me run ( just north of Yarnell proper ) with pilot ‘Kevin’ in VLAT 910.
+09:23 ( 1640.13 / 4:40.13 PM )
French still seems unaware of the ‘deployment’ radio traffic and just calmly finishes his ‘show me’ run with VLAT 910 there to the northwest of Yarnell proper.
+09:38 ( 1640.28 / 4:40.28 PM )
Only now do we get any indication that French is aware of anything happening on the ground, and he tells VLAT 910 he may ‘dial back’ the planned retardant drop a bit… but to keep it at ‘coverage level 4’. He also now tells VLAT 910 pilot Kevin to just ‘standby’.
+09:44 ( 1640.34 / 4:40.34 PM )
French resumes discussing the planned retardant drop with VLAT 910, and tells pilot ‘Kevin’… “we’re kind of alone on the fire now”. There were no other Tankers in the area and no heavy radio traffic on the A2A channel.
+10:02 ( 1640.52 / 4:40.52 PM )
Suddenly ( in the middle of the Air-To-Ground deployment radio traffic ), ABC15 Media Chopper ‘Five Hotel Delta’ ( 5HD ) calls French on the Air-to-Air channel to inform him that they are ‘done’, and they are leaving the Yarnell Hill Fire. French says “Thank you… and good night”.
+10:19 ( 1641.09 / 4:41.09 PM )
Only now does French seem fully aware of the deployment situation, and he calls VLAT 910 and tells pilot Kevin (quote) “Situation’s changed and we got some folks in trouble”. French asks VLAT 910 to ‘standby’.
+10:31 ( 1641.21 / 4:41.21 PM )
French tells VLAT 910 they may have a ‘deployment in progress’, so he asks VLAT 910 to bump up to a ‘coverage level 6’ and standby for further instructions.
+11:19 ( 1642.09 / 4:42.09 PM )
Helitanker/Skycrane 749 calls French and informs him they inbound to Yarnell from the NORTH and 8 miles out.
+12:23 VIDEO ENDS
** PANEBAKER VIDEO 20160630_1643 ENDS AT 1643.13 ( 4:43.13 PM )
Good information here WTKTT, that 10 thousand dump was the most devastating to Yarnell residents. Those pilots ought to know that 74 and the count goes on of the death of people here in Yarnell. Thanks for their intentions that did not work–half the town burned anyway and the 19 died and the poisons remained in our back yards. People have greatly suffered from those gases and poisons dumped here. I don’t know how it has affected the animal population but maybe there is some solace in that the plants like the ammonium phosphate or at least it is a crop fertilizer. But some things good for plants are dangerous to animal and human life as proven by that shit dropped into rivers–fish die by the thousands. Now on humans it is mostly dangerous to the elderly. Hitler would have loved that shit and used it on Jews and elderly to get rid of what he saw as burdens to society. By the way it did kill one Jew, Zach Ashoor, age 29, on the respiratory board of Arizona. I hiked him there while the shit was fresh and I did not know the danger. His asthma had his lungs already compromised and I am certain the effects of breathing that NH3 had much to do with his demise. The FS knows more about that concoction than they let on since they advise keeping it away from human habitation. But here they screwed up royally dumping it right into our back yards. I have since studied this crap and you don’t want to have ten thousand gallons dropped anywhere near humans or a river. I will say those pilots were damn accurate in their dumps but religious or not they did no service to Yarnell.
Zack Ashoor defied the order of keeping away from the fence. He went there and wept for his friends that died in the fire. He was working on a better respirator for firemen. Another hero, not mentioned much–but count him as a casualty of the Yarnell fire incident.
I forgot to mention that I am still working on the secret *8-16% hidden and secret chemicals in that concoction LC95A agent deadly retardant. You can bet it is hidden under trade secret for a reason. The companies that manufacture this, now in Israel but before Monsanto do not want you to know what they are dumping on you and the FS gives a shit less on letting you know its hazards.
Oh…and one more thing, while I was reminiscing while correcting RTS because he corrected me regarding the history of my own fucking crew, (just how arrogant is that…unbelievable? Now that is truly a man I don’t think I can reason with. And I was known, unlike the effective but gruff JD Killick as a person who could be very smooth and political adept when I needed or had to be, to be able to work effectively with almost anybody under the most challenging of circumstances, or I never would have survive the places I went and the things I did) at this link below;
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-323551
I actually left out the biggest reason I was able to not only survive, but succeed at my mission to create a new and highly respected and successful hotshot crew in Northern New Mexico is because 5 guys from the old Happy Jack Hotshots joined me in Santa Fe in the spring of 1981 and we formed the nucleus of the Santa Fe Hotshots.
This included all of the squad bosses, my assistant crew boss and our lead sawyer. If they would not have come to Santa Fe, I would have been a dead man walking while waiting to find a place to lay and quit if not actually die.
In effect and for all practical purposes, the Happy Jack Hotshots became the Santa Fe Hotshots under a new name and almost overnight. The job I was asked to do was way too big for me to be able to do by myself and since I am so full of myself, I will even go further and say it would have been too big of a job for any ONE person to do by themselves.
So…there is absolutely no truth whatsoever in the persistent rumor that has existed for years out there within the wildland firefighting community that somehow the Happy Jack Hotshots were disbanded because we unable to continue after the trauma of the Battlement Creek Fire.
That is 100 percent total bullshit, just so we can clear that one up because I keep hearing it. The Happy Jack Hotshots didn’t give a fuck about what happened to the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire. We weren’t programmed or authorized to care, so we didn’t..
The Happy Jack Hotshots were disbanded and the crew slot and funding were sent to Santa Fe because they (Santa Fe) wanted a new hotshot crew in the worst way and the Coconino had four hotshot crews and they successfully lobbied the Regional Office to make that happen.
Flagstaff and Mormon Lake lived in private housing in Flagstaff, and the Blue Ridge Hotshots had a brand new crew quarters constructed in 1978 and our crew quarters which was a barracks from a WWII Japanese Intermittent Camp has been condemned by the county as being uninhabitable.
End of Story.
>> Gay Olson said…
>>
>> The Happy Jack Hotshots didn’t give a fuck about what happened
>> to the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire.
Charming.
No…it wasn’t, but that was the culture
It is probably better now, but the USFS is all about culture, history and most of all TRADITION!
The U.S. Military establishment is more open to change, trying to learn new ways to do things, and adopting new and improved ideas than the USDA – Forest Service is…so don’t put any money you can’t afford to lose on that bet.
And as long as we are discussing it, and just in case inquiring minds want to know, the District FMO who initially made my career by making me a hotshot crew boss expected that I would remain on his district after the Happy Jack Hotshots were disbanded. He had told me he would create a Fuels Tech job for me until the forest found something better for me. USFS FIRE, not the rest of those slimy bastards…FIRE always used to take care of their own. I don’t know how it is today.
But when he took me for a ride (almost all of the old time USFS FMO’s like to drive in their 4×4 trucks through their districts while discussing important issues because that is their safe place) to tell me Orlando had offered me the job to go to Santa Fe and establish the new hotshot crew, he laughed when he said it.
And then he turned pale, and he had a dark complexion, when I told him that is exactly what I would like to do. Richard thought I was out of my ever loving mind when I said I would transfer to Northern New Mexico and as I said, he was Hispanic from Southern New Mexico.
But I am living proof that a white guy of Norse descent and an outsider can go to Northern New Mexico and both fire and arrest people and live to talk about it, I was actually able to do it for 8 years with the USFS and 8 more with the BLM and actually enjoy the 8 years I spent with the Santa Fe National Forest in a progression of jobs.
I will tell you one thing though, you had better do both with RESPECT or you won;t survive the experience, white, brown, or any other skin tone.
>> Gary Olson
>>
>> I will tell you one thing though, you had better do both with
>> RESPECT or you won;t survive the experience, white, brown,
>> or any other skin tone.
Yep. Hotshots ( of your day ) weren’t/aren’t the only ones who eat their young and then play soccer with their heads.
I mean…you are pretty familiar with Mike Dudley right?
Mike Dudley is not an anomaly or an aberration….he is the NORM.
Yep. I am STILL ‘Googling’ EVERY DAY in anticipation of Mike Dudley’s CR(A)P report on the tragic death of US Forestry Service employee Mr. David Ruhl.
It’s been almost SEVEN MONTHS ( count em’… SEVEN ) since Mike Dudley was assigned to tell us how this man DIED, and what can be LEARNED from it so it ( hopefully ) won’t happen again to someone else.
Maybe he and his other CR(A)P teammates aren’t done playing soccer with his head yet.
Well…in that case and because I am in a mood, although It is not a bad mood…just a mood. I am going to work on a white paper (otherwise known as a get down in the weeds comment) to tell you exactly WHAT kind of person Mike Dudley just in case you are confused why I would say FIRE takes care of it’s own, but yet all you have to go by since June 30, 2013, is Mike Dudley actions.
And if I were you, I would be trying to reconcile those seemingly diametrically opposed…issues in my mind..
But here is the Readers Digest version. All USFS employees are not created equal in anyone’s version of the Great Creator.
The USFS, has a well defined caste system, probably every person posting here that works in FIRE is or was, the USFS version of an untouchable.
Whereas Mike Dudley (and since I don’t actually know him or anything about him other than what I have read here on this blog, I might be wrong, but in any case, my underlying information will be correct) is NOT.
Stay tuned for more as WTKTT likes to say, although I may not get it done tonight because my dear wife and I are going to see the “Revenant.”
Gary, is Mike Dudley another convert like Donut? If he is the norm we have a lot of worries. What I have seen of that man and his ability to make pigs ears into silk purses makes me understand what cronyism really means..
No, Donut is a simpleton and a distraction.
Mike Dudley (and those like him and the FS has an unlimited supply of them) is truly dangerous because he is neither one.
Gary,
You posted: “while correcting RTS because he corrected me regarding the history of my own fucking crew, (just how arrogant is that…unbelievable? Now that is truly a man I don’t think I can reason with.”
“Them is all of those friends of yours who had a direct hand in killing the GMIHC…”
“I just consider you to be wrong about just about everything you write here. I could go on and on but why?”
Thanks for the Santa Fe Hot Shot history lesson.
If I am not someone you can reason with and you consider me to be wrong … just about everything I write, and blame my friends for having a direct hand in killing the GMIHC, then I say what is the use.
Arrogant? Have you looked in the mirror lately?
You have your mind made up.
Gary,
I found another one … “arguing with fools is always tiring …”
Looks like you need to get on some type of a fitness program then if that’s all it takes.
You have your mind made up, Oh Mighty Arrogant One
I am not arrogant. My opinion of myself thanks to my years as a hotshot crew boss go way beyond that, I like to use the word…HUBRIS whenever possible to describe what I was…and still am to a great extend. Although a lot of it has been beaten out of me, so I am not anywhere near as bad as I was..
Hubris…as in “a great or foolish amount of pride or confidence.” Let’s call it for what it is. And as I am fond of saying, “Hubris is the number one killer of hotshots.” Hey…don’t blame me, the USFS was the teacher, I was just a quick study.
That is after all what killed 12 El Cariso including the person that was full of hubris, the crew boss and.
3 Mormon Lake Hotshots including the person that was full of hubris, the crew boss. and
19 Granite Mountain Hotshots including the person that was full of hubris, the crew boss.
Whereas 9 Prineville Hotshots were killed by just plain out fashioned stupidity, including the person that was full of stupid. Not the crew boss, he turned his squad over to someone else who was full of stupid.
I don’t know about you RTS, we knew each other but not very well. We were on some of the same fires, but we never really worked together. Where did you fit in on the scale? And where do you fit in now?
Although the questions I have asked you already are really piling up. Answering my questions is really not discussing anything with me, it is just answering a question.
Just saw the last one, I can only take your drivel in short doses, so I have to pace myself.
And yes, I could benefit from a good fitness program, but that is not what I was referring to was you well know…right? You aren’t really that obtuse or you?
I also always describe you as a really smart guy. Plugged into the matrix and really smart. Some guys have it all.
I was referring to mental fitness and being mentally tired. What would you recommend for that condition as long as you are undertaking the role of being my life coach?
Gary,
Okay, I will accept hubris instead of arrogant.
I am certainly NOT a certified health or life coach.
I’d recommend cutting WAY back on the late night alcohol consumption because that’s what is likely impairing your ability and need to get good sleep.
Thank you…but I don’t drink alcohol and never had except to interact with WFF who do. My dear wife works nights, so we are late evening or night time people.
But once again, thank you for your advise, although right now you are batting o.ooo. I don’t want you to stop trying however, that is what got you where you are today, you refused to quit, although maybe you should have.
You know what they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Alcohol consumption is an almost an overwhelming component in the WFF world. For good or bad…mostly bad.
Greetings all, To clear up some apparent confusion, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am the only person operating this site and I am not “WantsToKnowTheTruth”.
Keep up the great debate and analysis.
Thank you,
John
Just pulling some strings don’t get all your feathers ruffled John.
WTKTT wants to run what is said here that’s fine Ill stay away and send my info else where.
W hen we are not open to speculate with personal Info then tis is no longer a open blog..
John—–
Severial of us have our resources which has led you to information you would not have had.
Our sources are as private as yours but they are also as factual as yours.
WTKTT can’t seem to figure that out and he is blocking information by doing so’
ILL LEAVE IT AT THAT.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 21, 2016 at 12:01 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT wants to run what is said here
Absolutely NOT the case. See my previous response below.
But when someone (anyone) makes the following kind(s) of HUGE assertion(s) on this PUBLIC forum…
>> On January 17, 2016 at 9:56 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that there was a GREAT DEAL
>> of animosity and tension between Marsh and Steed regarding
>> leadership and egos and more, when Marsh was on ‘light duty’
>> due to his mountain biking accident. One WF supervisor from
>> the Doce Fire remarked ‘they just LOVED working for Steed.’
>>
>> I believe that Marsh was concerned that he was ‘losing control’
>> of the GMHS while Steed was managing the Crew and that
>> concerned him a great deal.
That is no SMALL claim to make… in the “Human Factors” department… and the implication was that some power-control pissing contest between two Wildland Firefightes *might* have been one of the primary ‘causal factors’ in the DEATHS of 19 men.
So yea… I have the right the then ask the poster…
WHERE are you getting this ‘information’?
From WHO… and WHO are THEY getting THEIR information from?
How many levels of ‘hearsay’ deep is this, really?
The answer ( from that poster ) was…
“Not going to tell you”.
So that’s the end of that… but I had the right to ask so that WE ( here ) might have some chance of separating RUMOR from actual INFORMATION.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> When we are not open to speculate with personal Info
>> then tis is no longer a open blog..
There is absolutely NOTHING stopping you from ‘speculating on personal info’.
But for the rest of us.. who are being asked to just ‘ACCEPT’ whatever is posted as FACT without knowing where it’s even coming from ( or how many levels of hearsay we are listening to )… we have the right to at least ‘probe’ and ask questions about it.
THAT is what an ‘open forum’ is TRULY for.
And what have we been doing here for two and a half years we are not speculating we are imparting information. Take it or leave it.
You are pushing for Personal info that neither of us will give. Gary has not released where some of his info has come from either.
I already told you down below where the Info is coming from. You want names that is not going to happen.
RTS is working with and involved in training with all the Superintendents of HS Crews in R3. He is on Fires in R3, R4, and R5 The western regions.
His information is in house and current Yearly. My self and Gary have fewer contacts because we have been retired for awhile. I still have a few that are still working for the FS. I have to go calling to get mine. RTS can walk up to and talk to people on Forests in Arizona some were involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire. You wont get names or Crew Names or locations of those people.
That’s part of keeping your connections viable.
You probably wont understand that because you have never been in the Wild Land Culture. I am pretty much wasting my breath or typing lines to explain to you.
Some of what RTS got was on the first walk thru of the Superintendents on the Yarnell Deployment site. We have all been told that by him before.
HE WAS THERE he talked with the Superintendents including Frisby.
They had a lot to say internally and between each other that was not for release by any one. Yes it was all FS/BLM no State or County or City were there.
The last time I gave a name of a Crew Superintendent that I talked to.
Elizabeth was calling them trying to solicit Info. That is why no one here is getting names. Elizabeth went deeper with RTS and What she did there was
why there are no names of people or crews being brought forward.
If you thing shaking a tree or calling people DEEPTHROAT will further you information you have totally not been listening.
Take it or leave it but I would suggest you Back off. We do not release hear say I will not say any thing that is not first hand. I will tell you I have a couple of Family Members that I talk to as well as a couple of friends from R3 and R4
They have given me info and asked that I not pass it on I have not, even to JD
and we talked a lot on the phone about some of it.
Including the Video Audio about the Argument and the Deposition on McDonough.
Ill leave it there except to say you are in fact Stopping the information flow.
That has been going on here for some time you are trying to control the information and that will not get you what you want.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Ill leave it there except to say you are in fact Stopping
>> the information flow. That has been going on here for
>> some time you are trying to control the information and
>> that will not get you what you want.
What I am TRYING to do is pull this ‘information’ up from out of the depths of “who knows where” and into the DAYLIGHT.
Call it a “New Year’s Resolution”, if you want to.
It does NO GOOD for you guys to even be gathering this ‘information’ if there is never going to be a way to VERIFY it.
Maybe you and RTS SHOULD try to ‘refocus’ yourselves.
Please TRY and get these people to either allow you to use their names OR encourage them to get this information into the hands of someone who can VERIFY it.
There are still WAAAAY too many RUMORS floating around.
Let’s try to get some of these RUMORS into the realm of ‘verifiable fact’.
Have YOU heard anything ( on YOUR grapevine ) that even remotely MATCHES this claim RTS just made that some power control pissing contest between the two men running a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew *may* have been one of the primary reasons they all burned to death?
WTKTT Who the hell are the WE and the REST of us???
You seem to be the only one speaking on this subject so you assume you are speaking For every one else on here..
Not so– Keep your remarks yours you do not speak for any one but your self.
You want WHO and WHO ARE THEY that will not be happening.
Again no RUMOR is being posted here if you can not trust that —-
Then you are saying you will not trust me or RTS but that is you and not we or the rest of us, who may have other views that are not yours.
Do I believe RTS —YES I have gotten the same info from people here in R4 who worked with or supervised GM & Marsh. Remember they were sent home from a fire in central Idaho and crews here worked on the same fires with GM. No rumors just facts first hand.
Take it or leave it. you always have that option and you have no information to prove us wrong either.
.
You like to speak for every body speak for your self.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 21, 2016 at 2:47 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT Who the hell are the WE and the REST of us???
In the current context ( of the current debate )… there ARE ‘two camps’.
You are only involved in this ‘current’ debate over something RTS said because he is your friend. YOU haven’t played ‘deepthroat’ lately yourself… and I still thank you for your honest response over the holidays when I ‘shook your tree’ and asked YOU if there was anything else YOU could tell us about your ‘deepthroat’ moment with regards to this ( supposed ) ( possible ) video thing.
You pulled the same “I can’t tell you where I heard that card”… and I get it. I really do.
This latest ‘deepthroat’ moment ( coming from RTS only ) is something ‘new’ and altogether different.
He came on here and just said it was ‘common knowledge’ ( but still won’t say amongst WHO ) that some ‘pissing contest’ between two men running a Type 1 IHC contest actually EXISTED… and *might* be the primary reason they got themselves ( and the 17 men they were responsible for ) burned to death.
That’s a BIGGEE… and ( if true )… a game-changer.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You seem to be the only one speaking on this subject
>> so you assume you are speaking For every one else
>> on here..
Nope. I usually try to do a good job of ‘qualifying’ my remarks to make it clear that I am ONLY ever speaking for myself… but since it’s a PUBLIC forum… there MAY be other people thinking along the same lines.
But even if I forget to always add the ( me, personally ), qualifier… rest assured that I never EXPECT anyone else to ever be thinking along the same lines. That’s the sort of thing you only ever find out on a PUBLIC forum if someone actually chimes in and says so.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Not so– Keep your remarks yours you do not
>> speak for any one but your self.
See above. I ( me, personally ) do not ‘represent’ ANYONE or ANY GROUP on this forum. When I ask a question… it’s because I ( me, personally ) want to know the answer. If it’s the same question that others might have been forming in their minds… it’s up to them to say so.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You want WHO and WHO ARE THEY
Yes, I ( me, personally ) do.
>> Bob Powers…
>>
>> that will not be happening.
Then what is YOUR suggestion for ever getting any of this stuff VERIFIED?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Again no RUMOR is being posted here if you
>> can not trust that —- Then you are saying you will
>> not trust me or RTS but that is you and not we or
>> the rest of us, who may have other views that
>> are not yours.
Okay… if you’re really seeking for ‘clarification’ on that…
I ( me, personally ) am TRYING to practice the art of “TRUST but VERIFY”.
Unless we know where some of this information is REALLY coming from… there is a distinct possibility that someone ( or some multiple persons ) are bullshitting some other persons.
And I mean what that implies.
SOMEONE could be bullshitting both YOU and RTS… for their OWN reasons.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Do I believe RTS —YES I have gotten the same
>> info from people here in R4 who worked with or
>> supervised GM & Marsh. Remember they were
>> sent home from a fire in central Idaho and crews
>> here worked on the same fires with GM.
>>
>> No rumors just facts first hand.
Soooo… let me see if I’m ‘parsing’ what you just said correctly.
Are YOU now saying that YOUR ‘grapevine’ also has ‘stories’ growinig on the vine about Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed being locked in some kind of ‘power struggle’ for control of the crew… even BEFORE the specific timeframe that RTS mentioned?
RTS was actually ONLY talking about a timeframe that centered around Marsh’s ‘accident’ and forced time of ‘light duty’.
Did YOU just say YOUR ‘grapevine’ thinks they were in this power-control pissing contest even long BEFORE that?
That SEEMS to be what you just tried to say, yes?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Take it or leave it. you always have that option and
>> you have no information to prove us wrong either.
You can’t possibly think that you and RTS can keep coming on here with these ‘stories’, and refusing to provide details about the sources… and that everyone is just going to always immediately take what you are reporting as FACT… without more DETAILS.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>.
>> You like to speak for every body speak for your self.
Okay… let me rephrase the paragraph above, then.
You can’t possibly think that you and RTS can keep coming on here with these ‘stories’, and refusing to provide details about the sources… and that I ( me, personally ) am just going to always immediately take what you are reporting as FACT… without more DETAILS.
Like I said… call it a “New Year’s Resolution” ( on MY part and speaking for MYSELF and NO ONE ELSE ).
I ( me, personally, and speaking for NO ONE ELSE ) would like to see if we can get some of these many RUMORS ‘run to ground’ so they CAN be considered ‘facts’.
WTKTT,
“One WF supervisor from the Doce Fire remarked ‘they just LOVED working for Steed.’”
I qualified a source, however, it wasn’t good enough for you.
You will NOT get names or any of the other personal and/or professional information that you demand.
There is NO way I will reveal this to you based on the feeding frenzies that ensue here. NO f**king way.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
January 21, 2016 at 8:00 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> “One WF supervisor from the Doce Fire
>> remarked ‘they just LOVED working for Steed.’”
>>
>> I qualified a source, however, it wasn’t good
>> enough for you.
Actually… I had some questions about THAT little ‘blurb’ that I forgot to ask you.
What, exactly, are we supposed to make of THAT statement?
A whole LOT of people ( in the PUBLIC evidence record ) are ‘on record’ saying they “loved working with/for Steed”.
Did you leave off the ‘other half’ of the statement that might have been something like this…
“One WF supervisor from the Doce Fire
remarked ‘they just LOVED working for Steed… but we can’t stand that Marsh guy”
…or something like that?
Or were you just IMPLYING that’s how the same (mysterious) ‘WF supervisor” actually felt?
SECOND part of that question is… are we supposed to also INFER that Eric Marsh KNEW about this ‘statement’ from this ‘mysterious WF supervisor’? That this did nothing but FUEL the (quote) “GREAT DEAL of animosity and tension” you are alleging was ‘in place’ between Marsh and Steed?
Not asking you for more on the ‘mysterious WF supervisor’ there.
Just some clarity on how that statement fits in with your first one about this “GREAT DEAL of animosity and tension”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You will NOT get names or any of the other
>> personal and/or professional information
>> that you demand.
>>
>> There is NO way I will reveal this to you based
>> on the feeding frenzies that ensue here.
>>
>> NO f**king way.
Then why bring it up ( HERE ) in the first place?
Why ‘publish’ these ‘stories’ of yours at all on a PUBLIC forum?
Why don’t you focus your energy on getting these ‘stories’ you are hearing from these ‘mystery people’ to someone who at least has a chance of VERIFYING them?
It sounds like Steed was the man: here is where to go to an article by Josh Eells from Rolling Stone Magazine. He spent quite a bit of time interviewing relatives and friends of GMHS and we hiked with him about a 17 mile hike. He actually wrote a fairly good article covering the human factors of all the men:
http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-last-battle-of-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-20130911
“The other guys all worshipped Jesse. Andrew called him a Greek god; Wade said he was his hero. They would have walked through fire for him, even if walking through fire wasn’t something they did for fun. Jesse was constantly wrapping everyone in bear hugs and telling his teammates he loved them. He was the kind of guy you just wanted to make proud. When he joined the crew during their second year as Hotshots, having transferred over from another crew, Eric called him “the missing piece to our puzzle.”
It reveals the influence the 6′, 220 lb. Marine Steed had over the men. With his charisma and background, it seems to put Marsh into the minor leagues. I wonder whether Steed was actually arguing with someone besides Marsh. Seems there would not have been much argument considering that Marsh was just back from absence and an injury and my and Joy’s interaction with Marsh made me believe that Marsh was not the person that would argue with Steed. After all, he said he was the missing piece of the puzzle.
But I can’t wait to see Gary’s estimation of Mike Diddly. Sorry I meant Dudley. I saw Dudley directly contradict Willis on several points. I wonder who was closest to the truth if either were.
Strange the quote that Eells had about Steed “they would walk through fire for him.” In fact they did walk through fire for him–and maybe some other bosses as well.
Sonny,
Thanks for sharing the Men’s Journal article. I had read it before, when it first came out. Still good stuff.
A couple of quotes:
““The other guys all worshipped Jesse. Andrew called him a Greek god; Wade said he was his hero. They would have walked through fire for him, even if walking through fire wasn’t something they did for fun.”
I found this one somewhat troubling and yet revealing at the same time. This fits right with the Groupthink mentality when all agree to do something because the Boss says it’s a good idea and everyone else goes along with it.
That most likely was what occurred with the GMHS when they actually did, in a way, walk through fire for Steed, and eventually to their deaths.
“The fire had reversed course and was closing in. Eric radioed Incident Command: “We’re in a bad spot. We gotta move.”
This was a new one for me because nowhere in any of the records is this documented as far as I know. There was no need for them to move. They were plenty safe in their Safety Zone, in the black
I would be in agreement with Gary, WTKTT, Bob, Marti, et. al. who see religion as an outside discussion not much related to fire fighting. Mining and Logging never brought people together enough to worry about those type matters. There just was not enough time available to think about those serious personal matters. When we dragged people out from under a slab I never prayed for those fellows. I was just to busy dragging them while four other miners held up the slab. I thought those boys were goners crushed as they were., yet they survived broken bones and ribs and one even came back to work some time later. I guess there is just something about being 900 ft underground and giving your job your best with mud in your face and the noise of a jack hammer in close quarters makes you want to leave that to the hokus pokus to those that think that way. Maybe I just like the saying that God helps those who help themselves.
When I was for a short time a boy scout, the motto was “Be Prepared”. I do think prayer is a good thing for people after they were not prepared. But how do you prepare for a mine cave in or a tree blown over you. I could say God made the cave in or shifted the wind and a tree fell on a guy or I can just say shit happens even if I had done all things according to safety standards. See you can sound hard rock and tell if it is safe enough or needs barring down. There is a different sound to loose ground. In sandstone uranium mines the ground can’t be sounded–so everything had to be bolted with wire. You just did not go into open ground that is not bolted in the Uranium mine. Miners that did and got fired. Those bosses knew the danger and so did the miners, so that was one thing we did not do. Even with wire and bolts that shit was dangerous and often caved. Is that not like going downhill toward a wild fire in dense brush and flanking such fire with weather conditions known to be near and apt to change suddenly? It would be like sending miners into an open stope in the uranium mines–an absolute no-no and no amount of prayer would save their asses if that ground started to move.
Either way I tolerate the religious thing others have, but like Gary I would never want some damn miner trying to convert me to his religious idea. In other words I don’t want someone trying to convert me to their religious beliefs and I am not going to try to convince someone to believe what I do. Joy says acceptance is a better way–just accept people the way they are, and I do as long as they accept me the way I am. Joy says acceptance is a positive while tolerance is a negative word. Well you see, I am accepting and tolerating that idea as OK.
There is a positive to all this. Everyone, no matter their belief is important to the solution and exposition of this matter that cost so many lives. But, If you think you way is the only pipe line to God then you do have a problem. Well when I think about it, every wild land firefighter has seen a burning bush and so have I. Old Moses wasn’t the only one was he.
Sonny – I do know that whatever challenges a hotshot face SOMETIMES, they are NEVER anything a miner who works underground faces on a DAILY basis. So…YOU are the MAN, end of story! You can write anything you want here and I will read it just because you wrote it YOU are a living legend and a national treasure.
Well shit…I am going to stop posting for awhile, arguing with fools is always tiring and I am an old man who may not have much time left on this earth. I am going to look into the possibility they have some kind of “exceptional waiver” program to get into Valhalla in case the dying in combat thing doesn’t work out..
Should have said, “they are NEVER anything COMPARED to what a miner who works underground faces on a DAILY basis.”
I think all those type jobs are about equal in danger— fire fighting, mining, logging, iron working and the such. The labor is arduous and taxes the body and mind— only those fit and willing to attend to details stand up to such work. I have had miner helpers quit within their first few hours and I am sure there are wild land fire fighters that do the same.
I enjoy reloading ammunition and have since a young boy. It is a hobby that requires careful attention to details. Some folks are not advised to go into such a hobby since mistakes there can get your gun wrecked, injuries such as your eyes blown out or even death, and even injury to any bystander. I think all these dangerous jobs and hobbies do require attention above and beyond the ordinary office type work or the more mundane types of occupation. So we see too many men out there working dangerous jobs when they would be better suited to being a preacher or maybe teacher in a class room or an elevator operator rather than attending to work that takes concentration and attention else the consequences of serious injury or death.
Now we look at mining and logging. I would say either is much safer than wild land fire fighting if the individual is suited to such work, physically fit and mentally prepared for the dangers involved. The reason being that as a miner or logger his safety and well being depends almost entirely upon his own wit. If I were a wild land fire fighter I would be giving much if not most of my power of survival over to a boss. Some would say a superior, but in the case of the 19 we can see it was bosses, not superiors. Something like you see in prison movies, bosses, but not necessarily superiors. Just the statement that you must daily strictly obey orders gives me the Willies. It implies that my safety is handed over to someone other than myself and I must allow, what is hopefully his superior knowledge to make sure I stay safe and alive. Admittedly there are some wild land fire fighters and smoke jumpers I have hiked with that I would likely obey over my own limited judgment of keeping alive in a wild land fire situation–they have the expertise and knowledge I would not have, such as in a mine I would likely outweigh their ability to stay alive, so I would listen.
But something drastically bad did happen in this situation at Yarnell that snuffed out the lives of 19 mostly young but not so well seasoned wild land fire fighters. The bosses here all around did not foresee the dangers of moving out of the black into the heavy dense brush and down off a two track on an exceedingly steep and dangerous decline with considerable loads on their backs and with weather conditions apt to instantly and violently change wind directions.. Instead of saying how is your comfort zone or even deciding if the men could move down the mountain those bosses should have been screaming “KEEP YOUR MEN SAFE AND IN THE BLACK AND GOD DAMN IT DON’T MOVE UNTIL IT IS SAFE TO DO SO!!!!” That same attitude should have been stated to the Yarnell fire department on day one as well. “HELL YES, GET YOUR LAZY ASSES UP THERE AND GET THAT LITTLE LIGHTING STRIKE FIRE OUT BEFORE IT BURNS YARNELL AND PEEPLES VALLEY, THE CONDITIONS OF EXTREME FIRE HAZARD ARE THE WORST EVER”.
It strikes me that at least in the WILD FIRE FIGHTING profession, it is more the bosses that need review and their experience and work as real wild land fire fighters and smoke jumpers. The lives of too many are at stake when we see such errant behavior as was evident in the Yarnell Hill Catastrophy. In my opinion, every person on this fire needs to be brought in for close review and scrutiny with no less than an FBI type inquiry. Any less for 19 young heroes dead with no good excuse demands it.
It is obvious that one of the important reviews of bosses that were on this fire is how well they can attend to details. There were many details overlooked on the management of this fire. Too many men get into management with poor abilities in that area of details concerning wild land fire fighting. When lives other than your own are of concern then you better be good at the details of keeping men alive in these situations. Those details were flouted in this fire and cost many lives. Can you imagine Donut running this fire with his attitude toward safety rules, yet the details of the fire were flouted much as he did the safety rules due to his attitude and inexperience.
I have learned much from the men and women that contribute to this site. Their attention to details of the fire make me feel humbled so that I know my own assessments are minimal. Yet I want to applaud every one who has contributed for I know the value of the young men that were sacrificed in this incident. My own loss of a young son accents that.
If no one has said so lately, Sonny…
Happy New Year… and I ( for one ) am very grateful you are still here to keep posting the kind of messages like you just did.
Tá tú ag duine iontach, Sonny.
( You’re an amazing person, Sonny ).
Sonny said, “I think all those type jobs are about equal in danger— fire fighting, mining, logging, iron working and the such.”
I am pretty sure you are wrong about this one Sonny, although if I was still going to bars, (I never actually did this, this is just more hyperbole) I would stick with your version to hit on babes.
“Yep…there I was, all that stood between the raging fire storm of Biblical proportions and the sleepy little village of Yarnell was ME…and a few other guys..”
I can’t imagine my daughters are reading this blog but if they were, that would make them gag. And I know my dear wife is not reading this blog, I always tell her I am writing my book while I sit here for hours and type as an obsessed serial blogger. She thinks I am actually getting somewhere on my book….hee, hee, hee.
Wildland firefighting as a hotshot is hard on teh body and mind, being on a crew can be like living in a pressure cooker for a few months, but it is not dangerous. Hotshots were created in what 1947? And 12+3+9+19 have been killed since. How many underground miners were killed during the same period to time?
How many convenience store clerks are murdered each year…hundreds? I will have to Goggle the exact number, but it is a bunch of them. It think it is 400 or 500 hundred. More than the number of police officer who are killed each year on the job.
It didn’t jump out at me, and I am tired. I am waiting for RTS to get back to me on a mind exercise program so I can go at this for longer periods of time.
But, this jumped out at me, “Working at a convenience store is one of the more dangerous jobs in America. In fact, four times as many store clerks are killed on the job as firefighters.”
And of course that includes all FIREMEN (structural).
Gary, you would have fooled me about the dangers of wild land firefighting after seeing 19 die here at Yarnell. That makes this seem like something was drastically wrong to cause 19 to die like that. This just goes to show that the investigation must go on until the facts are known.
My first wife would not allow my oldest son to learn mining with me. I wanted to train him as a helper since he was game to become a miner. Instead he went to Washington to learn deep sea underwater welding. He got killed there after all, I think he might have survived as a miner.
These days a good miner draws $50 an hour or more. Back in the 70’s 15-30 per hour was about the best one could do as a contract miner.
I see the wages these days for the wild land fire fighter really stinks for what they do and the situation they are in. I should think double their wages would be about right considering the work and danger involved.
In mining our bosses made less than us. Of course not the Superintendent of the mine, but what we called shifters. For instance, at Tempiaute, Nevada, now called Rachael, NV I was drawing 20-26 an hour while my shifter boss was getting 7 per hour. We had a saying “shifters are a dime a dozen, miners are hard to find”.
So when that shifter gave us some guff one day I told him if he knew anything about mining he’d be mining instead of shifting. Most of our shifters we used as nippers. When we needed supplies we would send them, and they did it usually grudgingly, but Superintendents expected the miners to stay on face and if a nipper wasn’t around then the shifter had the job–reason we seldom saw the shifter except at the end of the shift. Actually some of the old time miners that had gotten broken down from the work took up shifting. They did know their business, and the best ones were like Bylon–he’d bring whiskey in his thermos and we would have to wake him up at the shifter shack when the shift was over. His crew was always the winning crew–we’d get a case of beer from Bylon for that and I know they liked his production so he got some kind of reward from the Uranium mining magnates. Bless his heart, we really loved that guy and were glad to have him as a boss.
I think of Dr. Ted Putnam when I think of mining. His 15 years of smoke jumping much reminds me of the way men in the wild fire fighting profession have to use their savy to stay alive. I know Gary, Bob, RTS can tell some hair raising stories and likely they have had to rescue some of the green ones in that business. You fellows certainly have my respect and looking at that Yarnell wild fire and hiking with some of the best I have gained plenty on that order. You are like miners–a group that only a few good men can make the grade.
I know that you are all in this for the long run and to help insure that the same catastrophe is avoided in the future. Unless all is known and understood, then publicly announced, and then emphasized to help keep future fire fighting efforts safer, all would be futile. But I know this will not happen–and what has been revealed on this site up to this point is already going to be a life saver for some that attend to the knowledge and information that is freely given here.
We are all grateful to John D. for this site–and although it may seem to be at a stalemate, that is far from the true value this is to men on the line.
YOU SAID: My first wife would not allow my oldest son to learn mining with me.
MY REPLY- second longest time together wife 🙂
Buiochas-biodh islich le do ghluaistean sentius Clu is leat tuillteanach. thanks, but I am humbled by your work. You deserve the honor.
All contributors here have honorable intentions. If any would not, or should they falsely speak, then may Karma bite their ass.
Sonny,
Here’s one of the origins of the phrase ‘hocus pocus.’ Some believe it originated from a parody of the Roman Catholic liturgy of the Eucharist, which contained the phrase “Hoc est corpus meum”, meaning ‘This is my body.’ This description dates back to a hypothesis by John Tillotson, an Anglican bishop or cardinal when he wrote (1694):
“In all probability those common juggling words of hocus pocus are nothing else but a corruption of hoc est corpus, by way of ridiculous imitation of the priests of the Church of Rome in their ruse of Transubstantiation,” whereby the priest recreates Jesus in the wafer or bread for their communion.
And the phrase “God helps those who help themselves’ is NOT biblical and NOT found anywhere in The Bible.
Jer 17:5 (NIV) This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.”
Prov 28:26 (NIV) He who trusts in himself is a fool…
One of my best friends was Robert Burns, a Jesuit Priest who migrated to Minnesota and passed on there. My line of people come from the Catholic faith, albeit I lend myself more to the Gods and Goddesses of old Irish History. Dana is a beautiful Goddess and smart as hell. I think she was manipulating DNA way before the Gods and modern scientists are doing. I do believe God himself (Dan) instead of Dana was in the background watching the progress that eventually made monkeys into men, but then a lot of men never made the grade even with the DNA manipulation.
But about the Catholics, sure they do like every one else, write history and arrange the dance to their pleasure and make sure their control is maintained as much as possible. Good old human nature at work. But Burns was a damn good friend, drank good wine and was highly intelligent of Irish decent. . I can’t knock their work in exorcisms. Maybe we could use a little of that in the Yarnell group of bosses that ran the fire.
Yes they did crucify a lot of Protestants. Religious folks get plum serious about their beliefs. They ought not worry that way since their belief will die with them in their grave. It is enough to handle the foolishness of the day and the Yarnell Hill Fire–well that is what we are looking at now. A good thing to do. Praise God or Dana and pass the information.
Reply to Robert the Second post on January 21, 2016 at 8:34 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Jeremiah 17:5 (NIV) This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the
>> one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength
>> and whose heart turns away from the LORD.”
>>
>> Prov 28:26 (NIV) He who trusts in himself is a fool…
Just out of sheer curiosity… WHY are you stuck on NIV(1984)?
I know that TNIV never gained any market share (circa 2005) and Zondervan/Biblica pulled it from the shelves, but what about NIV(2011) from Zondervan/Biblica?
I thought that was the ‘latest and greatest’ version?
Are you one of those that just can’t get ‘onboard’ with the gender-neutral language?
WTKTT,
I choose the NIV version because it’s easier for you and others that are non- Christians to understand.
I do NOT follow the ‘latest and greatest’ in fads, fashions, or movements. Never have and never will.
Yes, I am NOT one of those that compliantly, needfully, and willingly wants or needs to “get ‘onboard’ with the gender-neutral language.”
I am NOT gender-neutral nor do I ascribe to it in any way, shape, or form.
Getting ‘onboard’ with the gender-neutral language would be for the metrosexual crowd and other orientations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrosexual
Where I come from, men and women are clearly different, in case you haven’t noticed.
Honest answer. Thank you.
So you’re an NIV(1984) kinda guy by CHOICE. I get it.
Here’s a link to a Fresno F.D. SAIT Report on the March 2015, “Cortland Incident” when Captain Pete Dern was seriously burned when he fell through the roof into the fire below him on a residential garage fire.
On its face, this report appears to be fairly comprehensive and FACTUAL. The link to the 274-page report is in the second paragraph. And you have to scroll down to page 21 to the Overview section to read what happened.
http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article55594845.html
Even though the fire in question was a STRUCTURAL fire, several of the Serious Accident Review Team (SART) findings and recommendations SHOULD have been made by the YH Fire SAIT and applied to the GMHS in their SAIR.
“Yes, fighting fires will always be a dangerous occupation. However, we must change the common practice of simply accepting the causes of the injuries we suffer as just being part of the job, or the cost of doing business.”
“How many times do we have to read these reports and not change our behavior? When do we say enough is enough? We have the necessary information, and we have the power and ability to make the necessary changes that will prevent future injuries to the brave firefighters of “Our” American Fire Service. It is the hope and vision of this Team that this Fresno report become the benchmark, or wake-up call, we all need to finally effect positive cultural change to our proud profession!”
“The recommendations issued by the team cover everything from adhering to rules on personal protective gear to altering the fire department’s culture of safety.”
““When dealing with department policies and procedures, it is apparent the membership at all levels is picking and choosing which ones they are willing to follow,” SART team members wrote. The report recommended an “imperative for safety” be established within the department.”
“The report also found that during the March fire and other incidents, personnel sometimes acted independently, without the knowledge or consent of the incident commander.”
Sounds like when the GMHS abandoned their Safety Zone after being told by OPS Abel to ‘hunker and be safe.’
“
Good find.
Also from the same article… the ‘makeup’ of the ‘Investigation Team’ itself…
—————————————————————————–
Following the incident, Fire Chief Kerri Donis assembled a Serious Accident Review Team and authorized it to investigate the circumstances of the fire and Dern’s injuries. The report was released Tuesday afternoon.
The recommendations issued by the team cover everything from adhering to rules on personal protective gear to altering the fire department’s culture of safety. The eight-member SART team was made up of current and retired fire officials from the Kern County Fire Department, the Modesto Fire Department, the Los Angeles Fire Department and other agencies.
—————————————————————————–
So this ‘Team’ was, by no means, any kind of ‘Citizen Review Board’.
It had the same sort of ‘fire brothers’ makeup that the Arizona Forestry SAIT did… yet THESE ‘fire brothers’ seemed to know what they were ACTUALLY tasked to do.
Investigate an Incident and try to learn everything possible in order to make OTHER firefighters safer in the future.
So you can’t say it’s just the ‘fire brothers’ thing that turned the SAIT investigation into such a worthless ‘investigation’.
The ‘slowly I turned’ moment has to focus on the USFS ( and its subsidiaries/partners ).
If they really care about the people that work for them… then the SAIT should have looked like THIS report… and have made MANY of the same ‘recommendations’.
Wow, Gary you are on a tear…
Reading your multiple post narrative at the end of last chapters, summing up all of the issues and errors, it is clearly evident that you have pieced together the puzzle of Yarnell Hill better than most on this site.
Aside from the religion thing (I don’t follow any faith) I think you have scored a bulls-eye in your summation.
I am patiently awaiting the next new piece of information, to see how you put it into the overall picture, as I believe 100% you are on the right track.
Keep up the good work…
Mike
Just got off some airplanes and saw all the posts below.
I’d been typing up a similar response, but after reading below, pressed DELETE on it.
My only response now is….
“What HE (Gary) said. I AGREE”.
Going back to the round of ‘tree shaking’ over the recent Holidays… and now the subject matter at the start of this new year and a brand new chapter…
…I think this RTS guy has earned the right to be called ‘deepthroat’, in the context of this ongoing discussion.
So to move away ( in his case ) from any TREE ‘shaking’ analogy ( to see what might fall out of the tree )… perhaps the better analogy going forward is that while anyone has the right to come on here and post things… when anyone sets themselves up as any kind of ‘deepthroat’ character… we ( here ) have the right to ‘push back’, shove things down their ‘throat”… and see what they might then cough/gag up.
As for the Christian Evangelical thing… Evangelicals differ from ‘regular’ Christians in that they are TAUGHT to view the whole ‘personal relationship with their imaginary friend’ thing as if they are INSURANCE SALESMAN, operating on COMMISSION.
They are TAUGHT that they are SUPPOSED to be trying to ‘convert’ anyone they think they can… and that is also an ‘expression’ of the depth of their ‘faith’.
Example: The ‘Evangelical Christians’ that were actually members of the Granite Mountain Crew were KNOWN to have been ‘reporting back’ to their ‘pastors’ about the ‘progress’ they were making attempting to ‘convert’ members of that crew.
Just one example ( more to come with other ‘links’ )…
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130702yarnell-fire-clayton-whitted-obit.html
———————————————————————–
According to Bob Hoyt, PASTOR of the Prescott ‘Heights’ Church…
Clayton Whitted ministered full time to youth, overseeing Bible study groups at the church, Hoyt said.
Clayton took a full time position with the Heights Church youth and became the junior high pastor. This was a wonderful fit for Clayton and he was able to use his gifts of ministry as he mentored HUNDREDS of young teens.
After his mom passed away, Hoyt said, Whitted joined Granite Mountain, so he could MINISTER to the men WHILE continuing to fight wildfires.
“He told me firefighting allowed him the perfect mix,” Hoyt said. “He could help the community AND minister to good men happy to listen. He was very excited.”
Though Clayton had re-entered the world of firefighting he continued to lead Bible studies and prayer groups. He never failed to put God first.
Clayton’s work with the Granite Mountain Hotshots expanded, as did his responsibility when he became a SQUAD LEADER.
Clayton’s plans, though wonderful in and of themselves, tied directly into God’s plan and that is something Clayton knew well. Clayton’s desire was that EVERYONE he came into CONTACT WITH might experience the same love he knew, the love of God, through his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
———————————————————————–
So no body is allowed on here unless they meet WTKTT criteria .
What we have to say with out names or addresses or specific proof becomes WTKTT personal vendetta
Who the hell made you the owner of this Blog.
Some have been telling me they think you are JD ??????????
I am beginning to wonder.
You are funny bob. I thought you were leaving?
I still don’t get what the problem is with being a Christian.
Praying at times with others.
So I will just ADD I was Baptized Lutheran and went for many years since my child hood to Church. In the Mountains I went to where I could from Non Denominational to Methodist to Lutheran and now I am in the Presbyterian Church. We also have very close friends in the Mormon Church, we have gone to a few services for their children and a few Funerals and weddings.
I definitely have no problem with Prayer or Christianity. I think we have discussed it enough here. People have the right to their beliefs. As a Federal employee you are not forbidden from Prayer or discussion of Christ during work hours. The only thing you can not do is Campaign for elections or discuss candidates during work hours.
Many of us on here are Christians or other Religions and many of us pray.
It is time to move on people.
C’mon Bob, let’s put this behind us. You know how to deal with difficult people, you have dealt with me for going on three years now.
Done deal that’s what I said lets move on.
I met the feud between you and WTKTT, we need both of you here. And if you meant that as well, we are on the same page, thank you.
NO— There is no feud just a total disregard and revulsion for
what’s his name oh ya— MF
Bob, Now…that is definitely NOT what I had in mind. Between you and me, you have been the mature one so many times I just can’t believe this is what it has come to.
Please reconsider your position. Besides, I know for a fact that he prefers to called a “Dick,” if you are not going to use his real fake name.
I did try out “Dildo” once, but I don’t think he warmed up to that particular nickname…so I backed off. Surely, you can be a better man than me? After all, I have set the bar pretty low on this thread.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 20, 2016 at 2:26 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> So no body is allowed on here unless they meet WTKTT criteria .
That’s absurd.
This is a PUBLIC forum. I am NOT the ‘moderator’ of it.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> What we have to say with out names or addresses or
>> specific proof becomes WTKTT personal vendetta.
If you want to characterize it that way… then YES.
I ( me, personally ) am primarily interested in what can ultimately be PROVEN, with regards to this incident… as much as is humanly possible.
And that includes these “Human factor” related assertions.
‘proof’ is always nice… but coming onto this PUBLIC forum and making HUGE assertions, and then not even being willing to talk more about those assertions OR try to at least give the rest of us a chance of doing more than “just taking someone’s word for it” is always going to be ( and SHOULD be ) something that gets some ‘push back’.
The ‘mysterious’ poster named Robert the Second (RTS) just recently did that. He came on here with the following HUGE ‘assertion’….
>> On January 17, 2016 at 9:56 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that there was a GREAT DEAL
>> of animosity and tension between Marsh and Steed regarding
>> leadership and egos and more, when Marsh was on ‘light duty’
>> due to his mountain biking accident. One WF supervisor from
>> the Doce Fire remarked ‘they just LOVED working for Steed.’
>>
>> I believe that Marsh was concerned that he was ‘losing control’
>> of the GMHS while Steed was managing the Crew and that
>> concerned him a great deal.
That is no SMALL claim to make… in the “Human Factors” department… and the implication was that some power-control pissing contest between two Wildland Firefightes *might* have been one of the primary ‘causal factors’ in the DEATHS of 19 men.
So yea… I ‘pushed back’.
If I’m going to be asked to BELIEVE that… or just ACCEPT it as some kind of ‘common knowledge ( again… common to WHO )… or as some kind of FACT…
….I want to know MORE about where that information is coming from… and where the people to whom it is supposedly ‘common knowledge’ are getting THEIR information.
Directly from widows or family members?
Directly from WFFs or other FFs that HEARD ‘arguments’ prior to Yarnell?
Directly from Darrell Willis?
WHO?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Who the hell made you the owner of this Blog.
No one. See above. This is a PUBLIC forum.
John Dougherty is the ( patient and tolerant ) ‘moderator’.
Not me.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Some have been telling me they think you are JD ??????????
>>
>> I am beginning to wonder.
I am NOT John Dougherty.
Double down Go to HELL MF
Hmmmmm.
Gary a Hint’
John gives us a new chapter but who comes on and actually
gives us the access code to get there???????
Look back at the past severial Chapters.
Ill enter the conversation when the BS gets to deep but
No more information I find out will ever be on here again.
.
Bob- God has the plan so you may think you may never share information here but as time goes by allow God to guide you where the information should go because many times I did not want to share here especially after my order but I always let God guide it and if it was up to me I would of stopped writing on here and knowing many people to my life but it’s the obedience phase I call AKA twilight zone to my life…by the way MF has a new look nowadays….means MADE FROM up above; soft wink.
Well…I got the code myself by entering the chapter number into the search line, so anyone CAN do it.
Correct.
I add those ‘jump links’ for MYSELF… to make it easier to ‘jump’ between chapters when new ones appear.
If anyone else finds that useful… you’re welcome..
Followup to post above…
It was actually Evangelical Wade Parker and ( Squad Boss ) Clayton Whitted who had apparently ‘double-teamed’ Brendan McDonough and finally ‘won him over to Jesus’ just 2 weeks before the Yarnell tragedy.
This is just one of the accounts that Wade Parker was actually ‘reporting’ to his own pastor that he and Whitted ‘double-teamed’ Brendan in order to get that ‘conversion’ job done.
Here is the article that details Parker ‘reporting’ back to his own pastor
how the ‘conversions’ were going over there in the ‘Granite Mountain’ organization…
From the “Assemblies of God” ( AG ) Online Newsletter
Evangelism, Worship, Discipleship and Compassion
Published: Monday, September 30, 2013 – 3:09 PM
Article Title: Can One Young Hotshot Impact the World for Christ?
http://ag.org/top/News/index_articledetail.cfm?Process=DisplayArticle&targetBay=c97d4d5c-a325-4921-9a9e-e9fbddd9cdce&ModID=2&RSS_RSSContentID=26611&RSS_OriginatingChannelID=1184&RSS_OriginatingRSSFeedID=3359&RSS_Source=search
From the article…
NOTE: The very first paragraph is the one that mentions how Parker and Whitted basically ‘double-teamed’ Brendan McDonough to get that CONVERSION done just 2 weeks before Yarnell…
—————————————————————–
Sweat-stained and coated in a layer of black powdery dirt from their exertions, Wade Parker, 22, and his friends Clayton and Brendan and several other elite firefighters sat talking on the side of a New Mexico mountain, looking across miles and miles of sun-baked land. As often was the case, they were talking about God. As the discussion closed, Wade and Clayton led Brendan to Christ . . . .
From the time Wade Parker was a young boy, his role model, hero and father, Danny, would tell him, “Wade, not everyone has the opportunity to change the world, but everyone gets the opportunity to change their world (the people around them).”
“Wade was an intense guy who worked hard and gave everything he had every day,” says LCC Head Baseball Coach Scott Crampton, “He was a young man coaches like to be around.”
But as much as he gave of himself physically to sports, when it came to worshipping God and doing his best to live for Him, he was just as committed.
“Even as a very young boy, Wade would close his eyes and lift his hands, worshipping God, singing at the top of his lungs,” his father, Danny Parker, recalls.
Chris Hunter, a former high school teacher of Wade’s, says she recalls how Wade, as a senior, had come to her and told her how he wanted to pray that all his friends would come to know God.
“I told him, you’re thinking too small, Wade,” Hunter says. Wade would go on say he’d pray the whole class of 2009 and even all of Chino Valley High School would believe in the Lord. Hunter’s response: “That’s really nice, Wade, you should be doing that. But for who you are, Wade Parker, that’s just too small.”
Hunter remembers the moment the light came on in Wade’s eyes as he realized the truth of her prophetic words. “He said, ‘Okay, this is what I pray, that I have an impact on the world with the message of Jesus Christ.'”
After playing college ball for a year, Wade chose to follow his real passion – to become a firefighter like his dad. Not settling for the ordinary, Wade worked hard to be selected to an elite firefighting team. He made the team, and in 2012 he was named rookie of the year.
For over a year, Wade had been sharing Christ with his friends on his Granite Mountain Hotshots firefighting crew as they traveled across the West working the frontlines in fighting some of the fiercest and mostly uncontained fires. Some of the team had already made decisions for Christ – including his friend Brendan “Donut” McDonough on the side of that mountain in New Mexico – others, Wade had confided in his pastor, Todd League of Chino Valley Word of Life (Assembly of God), were just so close to accepting Christ.
—————————————————————————-
So there we have a report of Wade Parker reporting directly to his pastor ‘Todd League’ about ‘how the conversions were going’ over in the Granite Mountain organization… and it happened ( apparently ) sometime just AFTER he and Whitted had convinced Brendan to convert, but right BEFORE the Yarnell tragedy
These kinds of ‘stories’ simply remain PART of the whole ‘background story’ for this organization known as Granite Mountain.
Good for Clayton Whitted and good for those GMHS that heard Clayton talk about The Word and his faith.
Like I have said before on here: I have to tolerate all of you and your beliefs, so you have to tolerate mine.
And if you don’t already know, those of you that claim to be Atheists or Agnostics or Secular Humanists, the Federal Courts have declared that those are all RELIGIONS.
tolerate?
I do not think that is right choice of words when in Faith journey—
I tend to think its freedom of being who we were born to be—and I lack certain obedience and discipline this phase in my life in my level of faith but I do not judge me or others in their journey just pray our journeys each day are brighter and lighter from world burdens-
I have a one on one with the Big guy-
and I feel if you open up to Him…nothing prepares you for the journey…
not an easy one either except in the end…all the grace and glory is in the end…hope we see a similar grace and glory with additional information on the YHF and I do think it will transform everyone EVERYONE if just a few started taking the steps in doing just that.
SPEAK UP!
WTKTT,
Then I will cease and desist sharing any and all information that I have because I WILL maintain confidentiality. Get over it.
As I posted earlier, the hypocrisy is interesting when you make assertions and claims of this or that “LIKELY” having occurred based on scant to no evidence.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on January 20, 2016 at 9:11 pm
>> RTS said…
>>.
>> Then I will cease and desist sharing any and all information
>> that I have because I WILL maintain confidentiality. Get over it.
When you post what you deem to call ‘information’… we ( myself and anyone else being asked to believe it ) have the RIGHT to ‘ask questions’ about it… and try to determine FACT / INFORMATION from RUMOR / FICTION.
Keep posting your ‘information’… but please also be ready for some persistent QUESTIONS about the ORIGIN OF IT.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> As I posted earlier, the hypocrisy is interesting when
>> you make assertions and claims of this or that “LIKELY”
>> having occurred based on scant to no evidence.
There is very little comparison between what I ( occasionally ) do here ( try to look at the available EVIDENCE and make conclusions/inferences from it ), and your ( occasional ) ‘deepthroat’ routine.
Everyone who follows this discussion is pretty used to my ‘style’ by now.
Yes… I engage in some ‘imagineering’ sometimes… but it is always based on pieces of EVIDENCE that YOU, or anyone else, ALREADY have access to and you can draw your OWN conclusions, if you disagree with mine.
Not so with a lot of YOUR ‘information’.
We don’t even know how many LEVELS of ‘hearsay’ DEEP some of this stuff you post really is.
Someone heard it from someone who heard it from (??) any number of other someones and then ( somehow ) you happened to hear it, too?
YOU did not put the word ‘LIKELY’ anywhere in this most recent ‘deepthroat’ posting of yours…
>> On January 17, 2016 at 9:56 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that there was a GREAT DEAL
>> of animosity and tension between Marsh and Steed regarding
>> leadership and egos and more, when Marsh was on ‘light duty’
>> due to his mountain biking accident.
YOU are asking US to just ‘accept as fact’ some possibly second or third or fourth-hand level hearsay RUMOR that these two men were engaged in some kind of intense power-struggle for control of a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew… and that this ( common knowledge ) ‘pissing contest’ *might* have actually been one of the primary reasons the ENTIRE CREW died horribly on June 30, 2013.
If YOU can’t tell us more about where that is coming from… PLEASE get back to your ‘sources’ and tell them to find SOME way to pull that up out of the realm of RUMOR and have it (truly) become ‘common knowledge’.
If it’s actually TRUE… it’s also actually IMPORTANT.
There is NO “second or third or fourth-hand level hearsay RUMOR that these two men were engaged in some kind of intense power-struggle for control of a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew… and that this ( common knowledge ) ‘pissing contest’ *might* have actually been one of the primary reasons the ENTIRE CREW died horribly on June 30, 2013.”
Oh yes there is.
And it’s now RIGHT HERE. on THIS forum.
You are the ‘second-hand’… and ( to keep this argument between you and me ) I am ( currently ) the ‘third-hand’ level. If I now pass this RUMOR on to someone ELSE… they are the ‘fourth-hand’, etc.
Until I know who the ‘first-hand’ is… and there then becomes some way to VERIFY the story… that’s all it is… a RUMOR… started HERE… by YOU.
WTKTT,
NO rumors.
They ARE true.
They are NOT bullshit.
They are NOT part of an agenda.
Why would I lie? What would I gain by lying? What would I gain by spreading rumors?
What AGENDA do I allegedly have other than exposing the truth of what and why the GMHS fatalities occurred that day?
See the following ‘Reply’ up above… where you ‘cut and pasted’ the exact same statements and questions…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-323798
Thank you Rocksteady…thank you very much. I agree with you, not that I have been on a tear necessarily, I have been on many of those on this thread…that has been therapeutic for me, but for stating that you think I am on the right track. I think so as well and my recent thoughts have really brought some clarity to this situation for me.
I don’t know what I would do exactly if my son, who was trained as a wildland firefighter by Eric Marsh, would have followed my wishes and would have been on the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew on June 30, 2013. But at the risk of sounding full of unsupportable rhetoric and using obnoxious excessive hyperbole to describe my feelings, it may have included me spending some time in the Yavapai County Detention Facilities (not prison by going south to the big house in Florence, just jail) near Camp Verde, Arizona.
Of course I am speaking in jest (full disclaimer….my statement is intended as a joke/fantasy for entertainment purposes ONLY and should in no way be interpreted as a realistic or valid threat against any person(s) real or imagined) only and this jest should no way be read as a terrorististic threats by me against any of the officials who I believe share in the responsibility for the tragic deaths of so many fine young men.
Many of the GMIHC actually remind me of my son, especially Scott Norris. The photo they kept showing on the local television station there looked remarkably like my son Eric; at least it did through my tears. And that includes all of the GMIHC; even those who I wish would have made different choices on June 30, 2013, and in the hours leading up to their terrible deaths.
I am actually still so full of hubris that I think I could have taken that particular group of young men and helped them become one the finest hotshot crew that ever saddled up to hit the fire line. And that includes Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed, who both could have run circles around me as a hotshot.
And in fact, you have made me feel so good about myself I am going to take things a bit further sleep with a few more comments to clean up and clarify some of my previous remarks because I had a really good night’s. Since my dear wife works the graveyard shift our sleeping schedules are erratic (plus since every day is a Saturday I stay up late on most Friday nights, which of course is every night…get it?) I end up “working” a variety of off hours.
1. I really like your summation of our recent discussion of the whole “religion thing.” It has absolutely no place on this thread and should never have been introduced into this discussion in the first place and probably wouldn’t have been absent Pastor Willis’ outrageous remarks out at the deployment site.
In fact, I am actually thinking about converting to Germanic Paganism since that closely translate into the Norse religion of my people before Christianity was introduced into Scandinavia. I am just having a problem with whole human sacrifice thing…maybe I could just forgo that part, but I can’t kill animals either. In fact, I have to have others do my dirty work in order for me to be able to eat decaying flesh.
My late brother was an avowed vegetarian for decades and it made him feel nauseous to watch me eat. I do however, really like the idea of getting as shit faced drunk as a hotshot on a day off with Odin, Thor, that rascal Floki and the rest of the boys (and girls) in the Great Hall of my people in Valhalla. Except I think I have to die in combat in order to gain entrance and I’m not sure how I am going to work that out at this point in my life?
2. Although I did find many of the outrageous public comments made by the national religious leaders of the Evangelical Christians about the Mormon faith when Mitt Romney was running for President extremely objectionable, I personally would rather have chewed on tin foil and shaved my head with a cheese grater than vote for that bourgeoisie bastard. I am now thinking about becoming a Democratic Socialist in order to help address the problem of wealth inequality in this great nation of ours (Although I do realize you are Canadian…do I remember that right? Your participation and that of Otis from across the pond here are greatly appreciated).
3. I am very proud of the fact that I was the hotshot crew boss of the Holy Faith (translated into English) Hotshots. I find this fact fascinating from a historical, cultural, and religious point of view. The Santa Fe Hotshots can trace their name back to Spain’s conquest of the New World and the Catholic Faith in Rome.
Some of you may even find it interesting that I personally named the Santa Fe Hotshots. The original Santa Fe Hotshot Crew had been eliminated for disciplinary reasons by the USFS several years earlier. From the stories I heard from those who witnessed (and participated) their behavior firsthand…those boys were really out of control and I mean that in a really big way.
The energy and focus of hotshot crews can be challenging and sometimes difficult to harness and direct in a positive way to achieve the results for which they were created. Anyway…the District FMO and my boss (Orlando Romero) wanted to disavow any association with the disgraced Santa Fe Hotshot Crew from a few years earlier and he told me he wanted to name the brand new crew on the Santa Fe National Forest…the Redondo (Round) Hotshots. Redondo Peak was of the most prominent geological features on our district, just as Granite Mountain was for the GMIHC. But…Orlando said it was my crew and he fully supported me in everything I was going to do to build the new hotshot crew and he told me I could name our new crew anything I wanted.
I promised Orlando (we were in his pickup on a tour of my new district and looking at Redondo Peak at the time) that if he allowed me to name the new crew the Santa Fe Hotshots, he would never have a reason to be ashamed of our crew as long as I was in charge. And I managed to keep my promise to Orlando. I thought the world of Orlando, he was a true old school wildland firefighter who understood the business and was a great manager. I never wanted to disappoint him by bringing any of his boys (or girls, I had women on the crew) home in body bags to Santa Fe.
I loved the city of Santa Fe and working there, it is an important part of the “happy place” in my mind. In Santa Fe and on a hotshot crew of nothing but old guys, Bob should be in charge so I could learn how to fight fire the right way. I wouldn’t want to be in charge since I liked the back of the crew carrier the best anyway, pretty sad…right?
4. The recent comments made by RTS convince me that I was right about the so called “Gag Order.” Please go back and review my previous comments regarding this issue, if you have any questions. It was too fucking convoluted to go through again.
But to make a long story short, it does not exist now and never did in terms of how it is being used as an excuse by those who have the information we are seeking on this thread. There are many reasons why this information is not being disseminated, including cultural, political, social, and managerial. There is of course the biggest reason of all…pure Chicken Shit, but none of them are valid as far as I am concerned.
5. THIS IS COMPLETE AND TOTAL CHICKENSHIT AND I AM NOT GOING TO PLAY THIS GAME FOR THE AMUSEMENT OF SOME REAL GRADE A ASSHOLES! FUCK YOU “PEOPLE” AND THE HORSES YOU RODE IN ON, WTF…OVER?
Whoops, screwed up one of my sentences above in the editing process, but I am sure you will be able to figure it out.
Gary,
You posted:regarding “our recent discussion of the whole “religion thing.” It has absolutely no place on this thread and should never have been introduced into this discussion in the first place and probably wouldn’t have been absent Pastor Willis’ outrageous remarks out at the deployment site.
Wow, so righteous! Where do I start?
First, “the whole “religion thing.” It has absolutely no place on this thread.” Really? Says who? Says you? Now YOU are the ‘religion thing’ gatekeeper?
See my post above to WTKTT regarding the Federal Courts ruling that Atheists and Agnostics and Secular Humanist, which many of you are, were ruled by the Federal Courts to be RELIGIONS. I have to tolerate you, so you have to tolerate me.
Second, regarding the ‘religion thing’ – “should never have been introduced into this discussion in the first place.” Really again? See above.
Regarding the alleged “Gag Order”, you posted “The recent comments made by RTS convince me that I was right about the so called “Gag Order.”
Not sure what comments I made that triggered that, however, I AGREED with you on here that there was NO ‘Gag Order” and that is just what the FS folks referred to it as and that there was likely some official-sounding term for it.
Third, regarding the ‘religion thing’ – “and probably wouldn’t have been [introduced] absent Pastor Willis’ outrageous remarks out at the deployment site.”
You never know. Some Christian somewhere was bound to make that comment or one fairly similar. And as far as being “outrageous remarks” about God, they fall right in line with what MOST true Christians believe AND with what’s in The Bible, God’s Word.
You posted: “The original Santa Fe Hotshot Crew had been eliminated for disciplinary reasons by the USFS several years earlier.” I’m not so sure about that from what I know.
Their Superintendent at the time was a gruff Viet Nam veteran named (James Dean) J.D. Killick, that management did NOT like, so because he was a veteran and they couldn’t just ‘fire’ him, they disbanded the Crew. And reinstated the Crew a few years later.
GODISNOWHERE
how do you see the above?
depends where you stand in your journey or how awake you are when seeing it-
GOD IS NOW HERE
or
GOD IS NO WHERE
GODISNOWHERE
Good play on words Joy.
Religion can be a journey of its own. Shut your lamp off underground and you will find out what total darkness is. It is like that darkness when you are declared dead. But to come back to life in a way was to again feel the pain of the tubes jammed down your throat and all the needles, catheter pulsing near your heart–pain enough to make you demand morphine. Death is not bad at all and ends all the fuss. Now of course we prefer the life as we see it now over death but dying takes that fear away. It is really not bad at all if indeed as the doctors said that I was dead and brought back to life by the efforts of CPR and mechanical means to keep me there. Joy said take me off the life support–that is when I revived on my own.
The big question is not religion but whether there is any afterlife. Something happens there since one feels a sense of peace that is enough we are not so anxious to be revived. It is hard to figure out and sometimes we don’t have the questions much less the answers.
There is plenty of room in the universe for all kinds. And amazingly Joys pops was 6′ 9” and upwards of 300 lbs, yet he shrunk into a small box she calls Bill in the box of less than a few cubic inches. Strangely those ashes as few as they are still carry DNA and even a history of the chemicals he was taking before he died.
The postage cost 24 bucks to get the ashes, the cremation was free since he had donated his body to science.
I don’t know what this has to do with fire fighting if anything at all except the cremation part has to be approximately the temperature of a manzanita fire.
The NIV bible, Revised Standard, etc and there are many translations available make reading the books in a more modern language perhaps easier read. When Constantine melded Christianity with pagan worship, the new Christianity took off.
I say you have the right to be wrong in a matter of innocent ignorance of what you act upon be it no harm to others– But do not let the wrong be considered
right. What is right is self evident and speaks for itself. Religion and beliefs are but manifestations of the mind developed by influence and environment–always suspect.
Sonny,
You posted: “When Constantine melded Christianity with pagan worship, the new Christianity took off.”
It’s actually more like, he created the Roman Catholic Church, which became “the new Christianity” and it is based on Caeser worship from the Old Testament. Basically, the Papacy and Popes trace their lineage from the Roman Caeser worship. The Old Testament is rife with references to this.
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2011/20111027.htm
Constantine was responsible for the brutal and horrific Roman Catholic Crusades and The Inquisition for those that would not renounce Jesus and instead worship the Caeser or The Pope as God. These evildoers were anything BUT Christian.
The Bible is very clear in the Ten commandments that “thou shall not murder.”
Jesus says in John 16:2, “… in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God” is often used to indicate what the so-called “Christians’ in the name of the Roman Catholic Church, ravaged on those that would not worship the Caeser Popes.
You also posted: “But do not let the wrong be considered
right. What is right is self evident and speaks for itself.”
I say that SOMETIMES ‘what is right is self evident and speaks for itself.’ However, in today’s world of Situational Ethics and Moral Relativism and other New Age philosophies, people are creating their own ‘realities’ and morals and ‘what is right for you may not be right for me’ thinking.
Very dangerous.
And so, I agree with you when you posted that out of these came the new “Religion[s] and beliefs … , but manifestations of the mind developed by influence and environment” and yes indeed, they are “always suspect” and a source of trouble in our world today.
Yes, well indeed Constantine did appoint a Vicar of Christ–a Pope to go along with his ambitions. But these methods of control are pretty much evident to one degree or another in any Religious Organization. And indeed they crucified many for such things as witchcraft or supposed witchcraft. There are some religions that ascribe to that idea even today–some people would jail and torture or kill such people as gypsies and spiritualists. The Pharisees did that in the old testament and operated much like the modern day Muslims do for stoning adulteresses and other such breaking of their codes.
But very true that the world has become quite twisted lacking the common decency that ought to be among all men.
Corruption is pretty abundant these days, but then it always has been. When it kills people it better comes to light. Getting the truth out on this site can only be a help to the wild fire fighter–the truth no matter how much it hurts some select few. I think that is more the context of this work–and I honor all of you that are doing this. Somehow you will reap the rewards, but if not now someone near to you will.
My ambulance drive cost over $3900 to go just from the VA parking lot to the Yavapia Hospital only a couple miles away. I would have walked if I were able. But you see that you can’t afford to get sick these days and my little ride must have been a good down payment on another ambulance.
Sonny,
As I said once before, you would have made a great Hot Shot. You have the Hot Shot ethic in your blood.
RTS – Well…as usual, I don’t agree with almost anything you say, but let’s not give up. After I left to become the Forest Dispatcher, I was initially replaced by my assistant Bill Moulton. Bill left to take a full time position at the Flaming Gorge in helitack by the next fire season, which was 1985. That is when they hired J.D. Killick to be the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss. JD and I became pretty good friends since I still hung out with the crew at the Green Onion way too much.
JD was close to retirement when he came to Santa Fe, but he was there for a few years (3 or 4 maybe?) and then he did retire and he became of school bus driver. I had moved on to the BLM New Mexico State Office by then and I am a little fuzzy on some of the following details but I that is when Allen Gillette became the crew boss.
Allen had been one of my squad bosses and was one of JD”s as well. Allen was there for a few years and then he became a fuels tech (I think) on the district and he was replaced by Andy Serrano who had been one of my senior and most trusted crewmen for most of the four years I had the crew after I started it in May of 1981.
I actually reported for duty to the Tesuque Ranger District in January of 1981. Now…JD as you probably remember was kind of gruff and a very no nonsense kind of guy (and a big man) and of course he was replacing me and that was never easy for anyone to do. But I was never aware of any problems between him and Orlando and I was the Forest Dispatcher and the Interagency Operations Center Coordinator.
And as you know, almost nothing happens on a forest in fire that a forest dispatcher is not in the loop on and Orlando and I were pretty tight. I also never heard of any problems between JD and any other manager on the forest either…so I am going to say you information is really bad. JD never did become the District AFMO, but I didn’t read anything in to that because after all, I was a uniquely qualified and very talented employee!
The Tesuque Ranger District was combined with the Espanola Ranger District in 1983 and Orlando Romero became the FMO for the combined much larger district and they kept the name Espanola. Orlando had to start reporting for work by driving to Espanola, which is only about 30 miles north. That is when Orlando made me his Assistant District Fire Management Officer because he had a much larger district to manage. Orlando asked me to become his ADFMO and he had me take over the supervision of all the district field fire personnel which included the engines, the Fire Prevention Technicians and the Lookout Tower personnel.
Of course I remained as the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss as a collateral duty and my assistant Bill took over the day to day supervision of the crew while I assumed my new duties, but I still had my office in the hotshot building at the old WWII Army Hospital where we maintained our forest fire cache. I still worked out with the crew and led them on all off-forest fire assignments.
Allen died from kidney failure (cirrhosis of the liver) in 1994 (?) after I was at the BLM Arizona State Office in Phoenix, but he called me up shortly before he died to tell me good bye. I heard Andy just retired recently as a District Fire Management Office on the Santa Fe, so he did very well and I was always very proud of him. My family and I attended his and Lori’s (she was our Forest Supervisors Office receptionist) wedding and reception in Espanola and we were the only Anglos out of hundreds of guests.
Working and living in Northern New Mexico can be an enlightening cultural experience since Anglos are in the minority there but I almost always found the Spanish people there to be welcoming unless you went too far north and then it could get a little spooky. Of course did that on a regular basis after I became the Santa Fe National Forest Law Enforcement Officer, but as you know I survived my experiences there.
Northern New Mexico has such a bad reputation with Forest Service people in Arizona. (Arizona and New Mexico make up Region 3) most employees will not consider a transfer there, but my family and I loved it there and we hated to leave since all of our kids (3) were born in Santa Fe. But as you know, if you want to chase the grade you almost always have to move to get promoted. I worked at 7 duty stations and our son Eric went to 3 different high schools and our oldest daughter went to 2 different high schools. But forgive me, I digress.
The original Santa Fe Hotshot Crew that was disbanded was under Al Lopez, who was around the northern New Mexico for a long time. I am pretty up to speed on everything I needed to know about all of the reasons why the original crew was disbanded (maybe in 1976?) since I hired two former members to be on my crew. Orlando didn’t think I should hire them, but all they needed was a little leadership from a good crew boss and they did a good job for me.
There was actually a great deal of controversy when I was hired to create the new hotshot crew on the Santa Fe National Forest since Al Lopez wan still working on the Santa Fe. Orlando was under a tremendous amount of pressure to put Al back in his old job and if not that, most people (especially the EEO Office on the forest) wanted him to hire a Hispanic from the forest to build the new crew since most crewmen, and in fact most employees on the forest were Spanish. Not Mexican…Spanish.
Whatever Orlando was supposed to do, the last thing he was supposed to do was to hire an Anglo of Scandinavian Heritage to move to Santa Fe to start a new hotshot crew. Orlando didn’t give a FUCK (although Orlando never cursed) what everybody else wanted and he ran his district…his way.
The last person Orlando was going to put into that job was Al Lopez and Orlando wanted a hyper hotshot program on steroids…just like the Coconino was famous for fielding. Furthermore, Bill Buck had identified the Happy Jack Hotshots that year as being the finest hotshot crew on the forest (and yes, that is in writing) and I had a big rep as a no nonsense kind of crew boss…so Orlando offered me the job.
My District FMO at Long Valley was Hispanic, but he was from Southern New Mexico on the Gila. The only advice he gave me before I left was this, “Here in Arizona we have Mexicans and that is not considered a derogatory name, but the people from northern New Mexico are Spanish…not Mexican.”
That was really good advice that I took to heart. I also wish Richard, who made me a hotshot crew boss, and I were very close. I loved that man. Richard called me up while I was working in Farmington, New Mexico to catch up and before we were done, he told me goodbye as well and he was dead two weeks later from cancer. I wish Richard would also have told me that they do not sell or serve green or red chili burros in Northern New Mexico like they do everywhere in Arizona before I left the state.
The first time I ordered one in a restaurant (which of course was the first day we arrived in Santa Fe) the Spanish waitress told me that in that part of the country, burros were something people rode…but if I wanted a burrito and said so, she would serve me one.
So…from then on I always ordered a Christmas (that comes with both red and green chili and is how you order it) BURRITO and I never made the mistake of ordering a burro…ever again. Those are some good tips if you are planning a trip to Northern New Mexico…your welcome.
But let’s get back to Al Lopez. He was so pissed off after Orlando didn’t hire him to create the new hotshot crew; he transferred to the Carson National Forest out of Taos, New Mexico. Al eventually ended up as the Carson Hotshot Crew Boss and I worked with him and his crew several times. And let’s just say that things never really got any better for Al in his pursuit of a career as a hotshot crew boss. Although Al was one hell of a nice guy, which of course was his first and biggest problem.
I could actually tell you some pretty good stories of the old Santa Fe Hotshot Crew that would leave you shaking your head in amazement but you are going to have to get me drunk first. Let’s just say the Globe Hotshots who were sent home from the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho were an outstanding crew by any comparisons.
News Flash…whatever problems there were on the GMIHC, they were far from unique…hotshot crews almost always equal supervision and management problems and can be challenging to manage.
RTS…Did you know Al? You must have worked with the Carson Hotshots in the mid to late 80’s?
Oh….and if there is anything else you want to be brought up to speed on regarding the crew I started in 1981, five years before JD ever came to the Santa Fe, please let me know. I want to help you as much as I can.
And I know that was a little confusing, even to me, but the Santa Fe Hotshots have never been disbanded except for one time in the 1970’s under Al Lopez.
Three of my former squad bosses became the crew boss of the Santa Fe Hotshots over time, so I think I left them in pretty good shape.
The Santa Fe Hotshots have been an outstanding crew ever since, including all of the crews under JD. The USFS does not disband hotshot crews to get rid of a crew boss they don’t like, they promote them, you know that is SOP.
You are a wise man Mike. Peace is good for us all and your statement means you can listen to it all with open mind.
RTS said that Sonny said, “Gary is key to exposing those people hiding what more was said by Marsh, Steed and others with cell phones during the supposed black out of communications.”
Yah think so? Key” Really”
And I say, Sonny was just being generous. We all know you are the one who is holding all of the cards. I always describe you as someone who is wired into the matrix. You are just about the only one (except for maybe Bob) on this thread who is connected with the hotshot culture, or at least the hotshot culture in the right place. I think everything we know about the specifics has come from you one way or another…right?
Furthermore, I think you already know everything the rest of us want to know. You are just being a prick and making us wait for it while you dribble it out a little bit at a time. Knowledge is power…and yes, you have all of the power in this forum. Heady stuff isn’t it?
Gary,
You posted: “Furthermore, I think you already know everything the rest of us want to know.”
I do NOT “already know everything the rest of us want to know.” I know SOME things.
“You are just being a prick and making us wait for it while you dribble it out a little bit at a time.”
Personal opinion there on ‘being a prick.’. I’m NOT making anybody do anything. I have to wait just like all of us here.
“Knowledge is power…” Yes indeed it is. So saith Francis Bacon.
“and yes, you have all of the power in this forum.” Says who? I don’t think of anything I have done here as having “power.”
“Heady stuff isn’t it?” I don’t really know. It all depends if you define ‘heady’ as ” Tending to upset the mind or the balance of senses” or as “Showing intelligence and good judgment; prudent” or even as ” Impetuous and rash” or as “Domineering; overbearing.”
I have not been reading this site much but caught the word “prick”
What the heck?
PASS THAT ONE OVER but RTS is not that in slang nor definition-
what the heck.
I am going to expand some more on my negative feelings regarding anybody either giving or accepting awards for any work any fire team member did on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I think Eric Tarr, Brian Frisby, Tru Brown, and the three Prescott National Forest firefighters whose names escape me right now, should all be recognized in all of our thoughts and prayers for everything they did on that terrible day for all of us.
I am pretty sure however, that none of them would accept an award for what they did. They did what they did out of an intense desire to help by being first responders and then what they did was out of love and respect for those who perished.
I want to include all of those who undertook the task of retrieving the remains of our heroes in our thoughts and prayers as well. But as I have often said, the GMIHC were my heroes before they died, not because of it.
I have also said several times that had I been in the place of any of those first responders, I would have been driven to my knees out of despair and grief and I would not have been able to help even myself.
And I understand everyone can have their own opinions on this matter, I just happen to think that either giving or accepting awards for the work the fire team did on the Yarnell Hill Fire disrespects our dead and all of those who lives were put in grave danger by what can only be described as a completely botched and unacceptable evacuation or lack thereof, by anyone’s minimally acceptable standards.
It is inconceivable to me there would be any reason to give anyone an award for anything related to the Yarnell Hill Fire which was without a doubt an unmitigated, catastrophic and before now, an unimaginable disaster.
I know part of me died with the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire and I am sure most of you feel the same way I do. None of us will ever be the same as we were before June 30, 2013.
This is Chapter XIX ( 19 ) of the ongoing discussion.
Direct link to the PREVIOUS Chapter XVIII ( 18 ) is as follows…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/
Robert the Second says
JANUARY 18, 2016 AT 7:31 PM
Marti,
Because so many here and elsewhere wanted so desperately to place blame on AZ State Forestry, the IMT’s, misc. WFF overhead, the WFF culture, Willis, the PFD, and many others.
Those two were the sole responsible parties.
And I say, “Wait just one cotton pickin’ minute here.”
I used to be a pretty good investigator. After all…Janet Napolitano did present me with a “Special Agent of The Year” award in 1996. I haven’t been hitting on all of my cylinders for a few years now, it’s not so much the years, it was all of the fucking MILES.
I knew Darrell Willis for years BEFORE the Yarnell Hill Fire. I was really tight with one of his very best buddies for decades. They are both hard core what…Christian Fundamentalists? I was an INSIDER once, as deep as any insider can get.
I know who you are RTS. Is there anybody in the entire fucking country who works is in the WFF/Industrial Complex who DOESN’T know who you are at this point, given all of the hints you have given out over the past 2 and a half years?
YOU are what…a Christian Fundamentalist as well (ya…no shit Sherlock)? How many fires have YOU been on with Willis. How many times have your prayed together? You still work in the WFF/Industrial Complex for your bread and butter. Or at least the jam you eat with your bread and butter. You are an apologist for Willis and THEM. Oh shit or dear! We do have one inside the wire! You can’t be trusted. You are a subversive! I have met the enemy and it is YOU!
I need to start paying closer attention regarding my situational awareness and watching my 6. Not every bad guy is going to give me 2 and half years to catch on to them…right? How embarrassing.
Of course you did point out a few months ago that we fought fire together on the Murdock Basin Fire and you fucked me over with a night shift because I was a gung ho can do MF! My crew will do whatever you need done, we are from the Mighty Coconino!
So…of course there is always that. I guess I already knew who you are. My how you have changed. So have I. I am not the same gung ho can do MF I used to be…I know now that many of our fire gods have feet of clay! I AM the bonafide REBEL now!
FYI – for you old timers out there. The Murdock Basin Fire was in the Wasatch Mountains on the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest in northern Utah. It was very cold. We got snowed in…in July. Ahhhh….memories.
I just got back from the dentist. New teeth will help, and that same dentist had me get a consult on a growth on my nose. Turns out it is cancer so will get another hole cut out, maybe get a silver nose if they shorten my nose too much. That guy is not only a VA Dentist but a parachute jumper on active military duty. He just got back from an assignment.
He takes special care and if he leaves the VA and becomes a civilian Dentist, he is one of the best. Dr. David Neal is his handle. Life goes on and I am doing much better having made it up on the Weaver Range and back OK.
Wow, Gary, I see you are hitting on all 8, not 6 cylinders, maybe even 10 like the Dodge Viper. Jim Jones was a fundamentalist too. I think they call the emam’s fundamentalists as well. These are the guys that when I am on an airplane will all float off to heaven only leaving their clothes behind. I hope they keep their underwear and the pilot doesn’t go too if I am there.
Thanks for the great input here Gary. No this is not fighting as some would think, and I think Gary is right, there is a leveling of the waters right now and new evidence is still in the wind. . Patience, the virtue that bears all things to see the results will in its good time bring the truth to light. That is something I have gotten from these people on this site, of course among so many other things I have learned as an old dog.
Joy has been one to hang in there like most here, and her persistence gets results. We traveled around with her pops as she calls him all around Prescott from Congress where she picked him up at the Post Office. She told me she had heard of Jack in the Box but not Bill in the Box. Anyway at the Micky Dees in Prescott there was a tow truck with IN MEMORY OF MY DAD written across the driver’s winshield. She put the box on the hood and took a photo of her pops in a box. The driver did not seem to mind and a little chat to find out what was really in the box he looked a bit puzzled. Well Bill, had a good ride all about Prescott and now his ashes are still in that box. It was $24 postage to get his ashes in about a 12x5x5 inch box to Joy. I don’t know where the final resting place for Bill will be–that is something Joy is considering.
So I told Joy she ought to take up private investigating. She knows has that knack of finding out things, and faster than I with two fingers vs. my ten on the keyboard of a computer. There hasn’t been a day that we have not discussed something about the fire at Yarnell–and I imagine folks sometimes wonder why either of us so often talk about it.
The death of 19 is no small thing to us. We want the situation closed out properly and justice done–just as so many out there do. I think our being so close to the situation is another thing. We were there that day watching those men and the fire as it progressed from a fire among the boulders to a full fledged wild fire. It was obvious that an army of men could have no effect against such a torrent of fire. To challenge such a thing boggles our minds. Every fireman that walks the two track to look at where they went down is stymied and left shaking their heads. That is why we believe that there is more to this than just a dumb move by the men.
We want to know more about what Marsh had said. Gary is key to exposing those people hiding what more was said by Marsh, Steed and others with cell phones during the supposed black out of communications.
Have you ever jumped into a river to save a drowning person. As a young cowboy working for Brock Cattle Company, I was once on the Gila crossing a bridge near Red Rock, NM, when I saw young girl being swept down the river full from recent storms. On the banks were several fellows but none had jumped in to save her. Instinctively I rand down the river bank then jumped in and managed in the swift current to get to her. We were both being swept down the river. I had forgotten I am a poor swimmer having learned my swimming in a cow tank. But somehow I managed to fight the river long enough to get us to the bank. The men on the bank had been afraid to risk jumping into that swift current, but they were glad I did. I somehow think that Marsh actually did the same thing. I think even with that fire raging and although he had very little chance to make it, somehow he believed he could save the men. But he died, and I did not. Had he lived we would have the truth of this. Donut deceived us as have so many others involved, but Marsh would have spoken the truth.
So we are left wondering when all the facts will surface. Gary is correct when he says there is much blame to be spread around. But Marsh’s actions, Steeds actions still have some hidden facets — as do the questions from Day one to Death Day haunt our minds until we know the real story.
Sonny,
You posted: “Jim Jones was a fundamentalist too.” Yes, he was according to the Bleeding Heart Liberal media. So, are you comparing me as a Christian to the Peoples Temple ‘cult leader’ Jim Jones who was the one responsible for killing 918 of his followers?
“I think they call the emam’s fundamentalists as well.” Yes, they are, however, they are mostly of the radical Islamic terrorist type, the ‘Religion of Peace.’
“These are the guys that when I am on an airplane will all float off to heaven only leaving their clothes behind.” I think you have been watching way too many movies or reading way too much fiction. Or listening way too much to some of those wiley characters you talk about.
“Every fireman that walks the two track to look at where they went down is stymied and left shaking their heads.” Yes, they/we do, every time. It defies logic.
“That is why we believe that there is more to this than just a dumb move by the men.”
NOPE, only SOME of you believe that. And besides, it was MUCH more than a ‘dumb move.’ “THIS WAS THE FINAL, FATAL LINK IN A LONG CHAIN OF BAD DECISIONS WITH GOOD OUTCOMES. WE SAW THIS COMING FOR YEARS.”
“We want to know more about what Marsh had said.”
In time, I’m sure it will come out. I think we know MOST of what Marsh told him.
“Gary is key to exposing those people hiding what more was said by Marsh, Steed and others with cell phones during the supposed black out of communications.”
Yah think so? Key” Really”
“… somehow [Marsh] believed he could save the men. … ”
I don’t think he thought that at all. However, I do believe he thought it would APPEAR that he was trying to save them, but more likely to ensure that he didn’t have to live with the thoughts the rest of his life, that his command decision to go to the BSR would result in their deaths. Even though Steed could have and should have said NO.
As WTKTT has said, ‘if Marsh had enough time to go to the GMHS, then they had enough time to get out to the BSR to safety and live.’
“Had he lived we would have the truth of this.”
I’m NOT so sure on this one. I allege that many of us did NOT trust Marsh because of his untrustworthy habits of being disingenuous, deceitful, and an outright liar at times.
Well likely old Jesus would have dropped me another bottle of Crown Royal had I asked for it. I told the United Way People they ought to be handing out bottles of hooch and cigarettes to the people that lost homes with the toiletry items and furniture. Joy and I handed out a bunch of those things for people here and United Way is to be commended for their work. They were the first on the line to help people here. I think Joy said we did hand out 488 care packages for them and hauled furniture and other items from their ware house to those that were in need. Those people did not exclude anyone that was in need here. Now that has no religion attached and not proselytizing involved. If they prayed it was silently. Now that pleased Jesus, the Irish Gods and Goddesses and maybe even the atheists for the good work that those United Way people were doing.
Maybe it is not well known but Joy was asked to speak at a collection of the many people from United Way that helped out here. We enjoyed a good dinner at the event and I had to prop Joy up so she would publicly speak. She is a bit shy but got that honor for her good work helping United Way do their good work. Joy knew all the people and who lost what so it was a good thing since the declared Martial Law was not allowing anyone, even the good people of United Way to enter Yarnell beyond Main Street. I had the green tag in my window and so we could go around and distribute items.
You couldn’t even pass through Yarnell for a long time without one of those green stickers so people that worked in Wickenburg or those wanting to go to Prescott had to circumvent Yarnell via a rough dirt road that took them some 40 miles out of the way. One fellow who had to work in Wickenburg was able to come through because I procured him a green pass under my name. I saved him a lot of miles and he is forever grateful, bought me a number of beers for the favor. Now that was one hell of a human thing to do on my part and very unchristian of the Christian law force to force people around Yarnell through that rough dirt road when they had legitimate reasons to go through Yarnell. There were cops everywhere and all the fear of looting was bogus as far as I could see with the strict law enforcement and locals watching out for neighbors, etc. I think Yarnell was after all a practice run in Martial Law enforcement and Fema rule. It was a prison camp for a time and you dared not come through without a green pass–your lack of a green card was sure to get you jailed.
I have no truck with Fundamentalists. I once drug an 83 pound cross from Prescott valley flea market up that hill ten miles along the highway to a place called the Church on the Street. They were doing good works by feeding the homeless. I was sleeping out in the forest but had a bed roll and was prospecting and sluicing along the Hasyampa at the time. I thought it was a good idea to see what it might be like dragging a cross for seven miles, but made it ten. So don’t think I care what anyone believes. I have met a lot of atheists with more honesty than a lot of Christians. And I give a shit less what anyone thinks of my beliefs. I don’t want them enjoying the Irish religion if they don’t want to and I love it that my sister is a Mormon and I am not. I tell Joy she is a Nomrom since she has two husbands. She practices the Mormon religion backwards and why not. Women ought to have equal rights in things like that. Well the so called fundamentalist Mormons that ascribe to a number of wives. Jones I met in Mexico had seven, a couple were even Mexican wives. So I suppose if you can support that many and stand the fuss go for it. Mexico is safer than the states if you do that. Well I have had 6 wives but one after the other–all the house keeper types–they kept the house but then I never was a good house keeper.
So religion is a matter like politics., bound to create a fuss. Not a lot to do with fire fighting unless you mix the two. That ought to be a no no but then I could see a Baptist group, a Mormon Group, an atheist group, maybe even a Satanist group–even a Prysbyterian Group. Hell if they got the Job done fine, but it might be hard to get an ok with the feds on something like that. Otherwise keep your religion to your group and exclude me. I had Jehovah ladies interrupt me as I was trying to do some piddly job a couple days ago. Nice old grey headed gals and tried to hand me those watchtower booklets. I handed them back as soon as I saw the labels and told them I don’t do religion. They darted off like a bad wind had come up. Joy said she saw them writing down my address and said they do that to pray for me. Hell yes, do a hell of a lot of praying for old Sonny, I won’t object if it is out of ear shot.
RTS you ought to become a preacher. There is better money in that than the cinchy wages paid the man on the line. And there is little hope and much consternation to become a Willis or a Roy Hall. It must take a lot of kiss ass to go from 15 an hour to 90 grand a year, and a lot of smarts to be able to double that to 180 grand. Wit a smooth talk and saving a number of souls your money can go big time with preaching. Jimmy Swaggart still running after screwing around, , Jim Bakker, who did so well but went to prison and now back in the game, and Jim Jones, did well until he killed the 918. If you have the charisma that is a lazy mans way to make big bucks and be important to his followers. Why be a grunt when you can have followers, money, women, and grape juice (wine if you are Catholic). In fact I never saw much wrong with the Waco guy David Karesh –he was just doing his Chistian duty but Janet Reno and the Clinton bunch did not see it that way. The FBI and the Tobacco and Firearms people saw him and his bunch as a good practice run, though I don’t think they really meant to bumble it so bad that they burned up all those women and kids for the lack of arresting one culprit. I don’t think in any shape or form Marsh or Steed or whoever else was involved ( and there were others if you go back to day one) had any idea their carelessness would kill 19.
Truly if you want to study religion go get hold it Sitchen’s books and translations of cuneiform tablets dating back thousands of years before the Bible that has been truncated as much or more than this Yarnell Hill Fire investigation. There is the Book of Enoch you ought to study and all of it gets into some fanciful stuff. Maybe a little dope like weed would help in this type of work. The Indians prefer Peyote and mushrooms but some try the weed also. Maybe a little wine–old Jesus turned water to wine and they had a blast at a wedding festival according to what is translated.
Well someone screwed with our DNA, still are. I hear we can have half men, half sheep. The truth is many are already sheep. Those that buy into that this is a complete and true investigation are among the flock. Flock is a Christian term, so if you are a fundamentalist, be one.
just shaking my head and rolling my eyes-
I learned from Sonny’s family do not get mad when he makes fun at me but for the record I have one husband and that is all I will ever have-
Gary,
You posted: “I know who you are RTS.” Good for you. ”
“Is there anybody in the entire fucking country who works is in the WFF/Industrial Complex who DOESN’T know who you are at this point?” I don’t know and I really do NOT care.
“… given all of the hints you have given out over the past 2 and a half years?” Nope, no hints from me, but plenty from Bob.
I am NOT “a Christian Fundamentalist as well …” I consider myself an Evangelical Christian.
I have been on a few fires with Willis. Willis and we have prayed together several times. Is there a crime against that or something?
I know Christianity is being attacked and derided here on this website and certainly in the world, on a fairly regular basis and increasing, and that is prophesied in The Bible. Nothing new there.
I am content being a Christian and will willingly and joyfully and tirelessly defend my belief and faith in Jesus Christ. It’s a relationship and NOT a religion. It is BECAUSE of my faith and belief in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, that I had (an continue to have) a safe and successful wildland fire career. There are a lot more of us out there “in the wire” than you can even imagine. Once again, is that a crime or something?
Yes, I still work in what you call ‘the WFF/Industrial Complex’ but NOT for my bread and butter. I do it because I enjoy it, I like to pay back in training and mentorship what I got while working my way up.
I am NOT an apologist for Willis and ‘THEM,’ whomever ‘THEM’ is. Please define who ‘THEM’?
“We do have one inside the wire! You can’t be trusted. You are a subversive! I have met the enemy and it is YOU!”
Not quite sure what you mean here, other than you are attacking me for my Christian faith and belief in God. I am NOT the enemy. The enemy is Satan according to The Bible.
“I need to start paying closer attention regarding my situational awareness and watching my 6. Not every bad guy is going to give me 2 and half years to catch on to them…right? How embarrassing.”
What can I say other than you let yourself backslide. I believe that the principles of the WFF Rules, the 10 and 18 and LCES apply to everything in life. Everything.
I followed and STILL follow The WFF Rules on every single fire, every time because it is what I was trained to do and it is what has been tried-and-trued to work EVERY SINGLE TIME WHEN you know and understand them and abide by them. WFF have died because they did NOT and I value the Lessons Learned from them. I am NOT an apologist for what you call the ‘WFF Industrial Complex” and you should know that.
I think that’s it for catching up, at least for now. Let me know if I missed anything.
Well…let’s see. I said in the same comment that “because I was a gung ho can do MF! My crew will do whatever you need done, we are from the Mighty Coconino!” So yes, that was said in jest because yes, I clearly said as I always did that we were there to do whatever needed to be done….period. In fact, we liked the most difficult and demanding assignment, it fit in with our view of ourselves as hotshots.
So…let’s get down to business.
1. I have a long history of both listening to and observing prejudice by both Christian Fundamentalists and Evangelical Christians (and this was already discussed in great detail here on this thread a couple of years ago) against the Mormon faith (especially when Mitt Romney was running for President by many of YOUR national leaders) who I said I have an affinity for, because many of my family on my mother’s side are Mormons although I am not. I happen to know Darrell Willis is one of those who believe this way…and I don’t like it. I also found his dismissal of what happened to the GMIHC as an act of God and well…there was just nothing we could do to understand it because God moves in mysterious ways…go figure. If you need a refresher, please go back and listen to his nearly incoherent ramblings during the first interview out at the deployment site. I am also a big believer in freedom of religion and allowing everyone to worship as they see fit and that certainly includes Christian Fundamentalists and Evangelical Christians. God bless you and your people. And by the way…do YOU believe that Mormons recognize and worship Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior as you do? I am also very troubled by the way Darrell Willis ran the Wildlands Fire Division more as a Pastor than a Fire Management Officer and all of the blurring of lines between Church and State on the GMIHC. I think that was wrong and a clear violation of the United States Constitution and the intent of our wise Founding Fathers. I could go on and on but why? I think you get my drift. Worship whoever and however you please, but don’t bring it to work if you are in a management or supervisory role. I suspect we are about to get a belly full and find out much more about what went on with that crew when Santos’ book comes out since I have picked up that is the theme of her book. We will see.
2. Not quite sure what you mean here, other than you are attacking me for my Christian faith and belief in God. I am NOT the enemy. The enemy is Satan according to The Bible. This was certainly NOT a reference to your Christian faith but it was a reference to your position when you said,
Robert the Second says
JANUARY 18, 2016 AT 7:31 PM
Marti,
Because so many here and elsewhere wanted so desperately to place blame on AZ State Forestry, the IMT’s, misc. WFF overhead, the WFF culture, Willis, the PFD, and many others.
Those two were the sole responsible parties.
Although I have noticed that you went from it was no one’s fault but Marsh and Steed and then you decided that yes, in fact the City of Prescott had a 10% responsibility and now you are back to it is all you Marsh and Steed. Just what is your position? As far as my position, please refer to my comments starting here;
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-323339
3. “… given all of the hints you have given out over the past 2 and a half years?” Nope, no hints from me, but plenty from Bob.
Well, I would have to go back and review way to much information to get down in the weeds with you on this, BUT I do think I remember you stating a few weeks ago how many years you spent as a hotshot and that alone narrows who you are down to just one guy. You have got to be one tough man. I will never question your street creds as far as being a hotshot or a wildland firefighter goes. I just don’t like the fact that whenever you get the chance you defend “them ” And them is certainly not the Good Lord or my Savior Jesus Christ. Them is all of those friends of yours who had a direct hand in killing the GMIHC…Willis for one. I also found it very objectionable that Tony Sciacca (and you probably know I go back with Tony pretty much like I go back with you to his days as the Prescott Hotshot Crew Boss and I have the utmost respect for him as a wildland firefighter and a what…Type II Incident Commander etc? And I have spoken highly of him on this thread numerous times.) and Gary Cordes were in that photo grinning ear to ear giving out and accepting an award for the evacuation of Yarnell. I’m sorry, but I just don’t think anyone should be giving out or accepting any awards for the work that was done on the Yarenll Hill Fire by the fire team….any of them for any reason. I could go on and on about this but why? You probably get my drift.
4. “We do have one inside the wire! You can’t be trusted. You are a subversive! I have met the enemy and it is YOU!”
Now I am not going to start apologizing for my obnoxious overuse of hyperbole on this thread. I have insulted and made almost everyone mad at me numerous times but that is my shtick to make this a little more interesting. Plus…I am a smart ass…OK? But if it bother you, no I do not consider you the enemy who is inside the wire. I just consider you to be wrong about just about everything you write here. I could go on and on but why? You probably get my drift.
5. I have tried my best to humor both you and Bob (God Bless Him, we both stood on his shoulders in the house he built) because I want all of the young whippersnappers out there to follow all of the rules all of the time. But no, we didn’t and I didn’t. I actually didn’t know wildland firefighters like you and Bob even existed until we met on this thread. I never fought fire with any guys like you. I thought you guys were just jerking my chain about all of that safety bullshit and then I figured out you really were serious. I was raised as a young lad…should I say it? ON THE MIGHTY COCONINO DURING THE BILL BUCK ERA…and well…the rules were actually treated more as guidelines. And all I can say…is that neither you nor Bob would have ever been promoted in…A HYPER HOTSHOT PROGRAM ON STEROIDS. Now it is important to know the rules because you need to know when you are out of bounds and have a good Plan B and maybe even a Plan C and we always had to be ready to pull back if we found out we have gone too far. But that is NEVER the way it should be done today, we were SO wrong! And I did have a former squad boss tell me after watching WTKTT time lapse video, “hey Gary, you know I loved you man, but if you would have told me we were going down there…I would have told you…NO! What Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed did on the Yarnell Hill Fire is beyond my comprehension and completely inexplicable. I could go on and on but why? You probably get my drift.
I think that’s it for catching up, at least for now. Let me know if I missed anything.
Whoops…forgot a really big one. Hey man…that was just a shot in the dark, Hail Mary Pass weird gut feeling instinct I had to ask you how many times you have prayed with Willis on a fire.
I didn’t really think I was right or that you would bite…fuck me, you guys are scary and WAY over some boundaries I NEVER saw or even heard of being crossed during my entire government service.
That would not have flown any place I ever worked. I’m not saying guys weren’t religious or ever prayed, but nobody took it to the level you guys (and the GMIHC apparently did).
You are wrong to bring that to work unless you are going to tell me you did it in private and no one else was ever influenced or put in a position to feel uncomfortable because they did not share your views or join in and I’m sorry, I just don’t believe that because part of YOUR shtick is to share you joy of the gospel and your faith with those around you….right?
You guys are making me uncomfortable just hearing about how you conduct official government business on time and I am glad I never worked anywhere near anyone like you or Willis, I am especially glad I was NEVER supervised by anyone like you or Willis. Not cool.
And I worked on the Santa Fe National Forest…you know, the Holy Faith National Forest in the shadows of the Sangre de Christo Mountains…you know, the Blood of Christ Mountains for 8 years and 12 altogether in Santa Fe and four more in ABQ.
You can’t take a step in any direction in Santa Fe (or Albuquerque for that matter) where the Christian faith is not directly in your face, but never at work. Even though I am pretty sure I worked with a lot of Christians who took their faith at least as serious as you and Willis do.
Whoops, I should have said, “Even though I am pretty sure I worked with AND FOR a lot of Christians who took their faith at least as serious as you and Willis do.
Once again, thank the Good Lord I never WORKED FOR anybody even resembling you and Willis.
Ever…in 32 years on 3 National Forests and 4 Ranger Districts, two BLM State Offices (New Mexico and Arizona) the BLM Albuquerque Field Office, the BLM Farmington Field Office, the US Customs Service Air Branch Kirkland AFB, the Albuquerque Police Department Repeat Offender Program Office, and some more offices I can’t even remember.
And I never saw it or experienced it or even heard about it (and you know what “it” is) .what does that tell you about how you and Willis are used to conducting business. Not cool man!.
Gee…maybe you and Willis should go to Santa Fe or Ogden Utah with the whole Evangelical Christian trip and see how you like it when the shoe is on the other foot.
I’m sorry, I just can’t get over it. I didn’t really think you even KNOW Willis. It really is a small world. I know exactly WHERE you are coming from now. I fuckin’ nailed it! Again. Damn…I might still have IT after all.
Seriously RTS..I am totally at piece with your religion and I really mean it when I say May God Bless You and Your People!
I have absolutely no quarrel with anyone practicing any religion or absence of any religion they choose. I just like some boundaries, like those specified in the US Constitution.
But that is not what this post is really about. I was thinking of how it would be for Bob it you and I actually stood on his shoulders.
I mean…that would be about 600 pounds of beef. Now there would be a man who could use some prayers…from everyone!
whoops. should say at PEACE
I’m hoping we can find ways to step together in this instead of finding ways to fight each other. I really like everyone here.
I am pursuing something in my private life right now and its been difficult to take a stand for a man I hardly knew like I should of been able to know (my pops) but then again I took a stand for 19 men I did not know either. I guess because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
I did not know my father much because of the layers of that side of the family- I tried many times but I had to lay to rest that journey long ago before his death but now I am up against the emotional vampires who want to draw that energy to pull me in to just hand over the sealed cremated remains—end of story—move forward. Nope. Too many red flags just like this fire and its aftermath had too many red flags.
I have to run for now—my brother asked me HOW to FIND Arizona probate form for him to get notarized that he wants me to handle the affairs of my dad since he lives back East-
Anyone know where I can find it-
I have wicked head pain and I would appreciate any guidance there.
thank you.
Although it is definitely NOT the Evangelical Christian faith that is almost everywhere you look or go in Santa Fe…if you get my drift..
Gary,
You posted: regarding the Murdoch Basin Fire in Utah, “and you fucked me over with a night shift because I was a gung ho can do MF!”
WRONG! You f**ked yourself over by telling the IMT that you would do whatever they wanted you to do. You sodomized yourself and your Crew. I clearly did NOT want to work nigh shift and you basically told them you didn’t care, you’d do whatever the needed you to do.