Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV, Chapter XXV, Chapter XXVI and Chapter XXVII.
© Copyright 2019 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Friends on IM:
Here is some good advice that may well save your life> That corona virus escaped or was released from a Type 4 biological facility. That is where the most dangerous lethal type air bornvirus are deveoped and played with. We have 16 such facilities –China has only one where that Corona Virus originated.
The virus has spread already similar to the way the Spanish flu did during WW1. My Dad helped stacked dead soldier bodies from that flu on his way over on the ship to the front during that war. This new Corona strain may well be the killer that will make a major population reduction, especially among the elderly and those compromised in the immune system.
When I visited my son there was already case in Tempe, but most of you know of plenty of cases around the world–Japan, Indonesia, Australia, etc. I believe this one can be defeated with just a surgical mask when you are in a hospital or large crowd.
For your information there are plenty of Level 3 experimental labs–mostly at the Universities. They are not necessarily guarded as Level 4 would be but also contain potentially lethal virus experiments. Britain has 9 of these level 4 labs–something for a small country. Prince Paul better watch out, his dream of coming back as a virus might be in one of his own labs. If you want the whole list of where they are in the US and other places, Wikipedia has them
We are a war like people on this planet–even devising methods to take people out by lethal diseases. What alien with any good morals would want to contaminate himself by showing up on the White House Lawn–well he would get lead poison there–the lethal kind–one I have experienced and one you do not want to experience–nor even the deadly virus the Chinese have invented.
China has 1.46 billion people. India has 1.35 billion people. The US has .31 Billion people. You can see that we are quite small in population to these giants in human resources. If either China or India were to loose a population equal to our country they would still have over a billion people to carry on with. The Arabs have above .4 billion–so only have the states outnumbered by 100 thousand or so. Pakistan with its nukes is also famous for housing Osama Ben Lauden. North Korea has only a little over 22 million people–Mexico City has more than Korea.
But a sneak nuclear attack from any one of these small countries would leave this country so vulnerable. The idea that the citizens should be disarmed in this country is total ignorance of the world situation. Instead, every American Citizen, especially those trained in military action should be required to be armed. That may someday be the only hope for a last ditch effort to save the Country and its people.
This Bush, etc. idea of a New World Order is based upon the hopes that a few World Bankers, Corporate Trillionaires and Oil Magnates will be able to control the world populations. Common sense should tell you that any attempt to remove the sovereignty of this country will result in reducing it to third world status and perhaps even a slaughter of a large group of its citizens by removal of protection. We have not made ourselves popular among the world nations–and quite a number of them would just as soon see our demise.
So do not think this world will come to a peace loving situation by some New World Order crap. That is only made up so the dynasties that already exist can maintain their controls. It is not for the good of the sovereignty of our country and the common folk within its borders.
Yeah. chapter 29.
See you over there.
Happy Autumn.
Here is a direct link to the next ( new ) Chapter XXIX ( 29 ) of this ongoing discussion…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxix-here/
Joy, have your considered doing a UFO site? You are pretty famous with the site you are doing on firefighting–lots of revelations of truth there but I also know you are beholden to partners there and that site is dedicated to the Yarnell Wild fire on the main so I could understand and also the religious ramifications. Some of these fundamentalists think it is evil and of the devil and should not be looked into. That is like saying an evil molesting Priest or Preacher out not be looked into.
These drones, UFO’s and such could be behind some of these wild fires if not many–they are at an all time high the world over–including such big land masses as Australia, Russia, and Brazil and I am certain even Europe where my Irish relatives are even turning out to fight wild fires. As the Canadian Minister, retired said, the UFO thing in the US is above top secret, even more secret than the Hydrogen Bomb was during that time he worked in the Ministry. Now that means UFO interest by “Trade” secret laws has kept UFO basis only on allowing the public what the secret holders want to allow the public. Obviously they have plenty fear–one that the public might panic, and even more fearful is the fact that when public is the one providing the funds for these goats, there is the high possibility they would be removed from their powerful positions and replaced with honest folk willing to tell the truth.
So you are away from your computer but should you decide to make a UFO site on the side, I already some amazing photos–(I do not think these are government at all by their actions) and of course you still have some photos we took together over the years we pioneered Arizona. You are already famous for your efforts in the Yarnell Fire, the many people you helped to get to the site and inform about the fire and because you were a civilian with guts enough to go to the fire edge and see if you needed to warn people in the area and what worries your own town of Congress might have concerning the spread of the fire. Also, you Mother is an ardent believer in UFO’s and I am certain would support you to set up such a site.
It is time that people began to take these things seriously and quit making fun of something that is very serious. The public has been deprived in so many areas and it is the shame of such organizations as the CIA when they were doing bogus experiments on citizens and keeping those things under secret protections. Much harm was done to citizens and now we have NASA and the Military controls hiding information about things the public has the right to know–Damn them for using our tax monies and hiding information that really has no right to be withheld from our citizens. And the same goes for the fire fighting honcho group that does the same.
People want to say that well they can’t keep a secret in government–that is a lie–the spy planes were held secret for 12 years before being revealed. One that came in, a long time military and top flight pilot saw for the first time and said what is that–yet it was in the works for over ten years. So yes, the government by need to know and compartmentalization has kept plenty from the public and much of it had no concern at all for public defense issues.
The UFO thing, right along with wild land fire fighting methods and mistakes, in my way of thinking, is one issue that all information needs to be out there. I think because of Joy’s connections with Hollywood figures and her devotion to truth and exposing lies, she would have a great value in presenting to the public what the Feds do not want the public to know. However, she would have to be allowed the freedom of expression and no hindrance from religious people or others with agendas not aligned with finding the facts.
I, for one, know that Joy has some photos that defy reason but the camera does not lie, just as her photos at Yarnell did not. I can add some amazing photos as well and some true stories that bend the mind a bit to drag one out of the box of control–those ideas inculcated into our minds by parents, peers, and authoritarians–who are most often deluded by their false beliefs, religious ideas and learning.
When you have astronauts telling us we have been snowballed by truth then it is time for someone with the ability to challenge ideas we have been falsely given and someone to start a move to reveal things like what are the added chemicals in retardants that affect the health of humanity? Or did you know for example that Tungsten is very near the hardness of diamond and has a density a tad more that Uranium at 19.25 and just barely under the density of gold. Tungsten carbide is a very much harder and safe and better bullet perpetrator than depleted Uranium and does not have the dangerous radiation effects uranium does. But then what better way to get rid of the depleted by products of nuclear reactors than put them in bullets to light up your enemy and make your own soldiers exposed as well? Well you might say Tungsten is expensive–truth is if you want to replace depleted Uranium at only 6 in hardness then use the abundant manganese with the same hardess at 6 or even better mix it with a bit of iron to bring it up to 7.5–add a little Tungsten to bring the density up more but keep the depleted uranium out of the environment–well of course we don’t mind polluting the Arabian environment–but maybe we are polluting the desert right outside El Paso these days on those Army Practice ranges that some day may be used for habitation.
At any rate, there are indeed some idiots that run things–well maybe not so much idiots as people the care less about the environment and the health of people and leaving the planet better and not worse for our progeny.
And Joy–if you do get a site going–I have some true stories–most of what you already know that might make the hair stand up on some. Remember Robert Long–His hair looked like he had his finger stuck in a light socket.
Happy trails and Christmas, New Year, and Holidays or whatever religious idea you have–may it serve you well and may the truth bear upon you.
Also–Tungsten is 7.5 in hardness pure but add a bit of carbon and get a carbide at 9 in hardness that I use on my circle blades to cut sandy mesquite–forget those chain saw blades that have carbide–the tips have a habit there of breaking off unless they have improved the process. But tungsten carbide will cut through nails with not problem.
And Joy go to your email and answer a question.
Sometimes if I go back and re read things–snowballed by lies not truth–hard snowballs at that. If there is a hell some of the Feds will burn especially those involved in such things as the Yarnell cover ups and using citizens for experiments and lab rats when they know the effects already but just want to verify their experiments–In Scientific circles you have to repeat experiments to see if they are repeatable. Common sense ought to do involving people exposed to the retardant, but what does it matter to some that they wiped out so many elderly at Yarnell?
And you say well that is outlandish thinking? Shit they had no qualms doing testing of Atom Bombs with citizens downwind getting heavy doses of radiation–nor did they mind sending crews in to inspect the bomb sites and clean up the area after. But you can bet those same scientists knew that Madam Curie and several that got exposed to Uranium accidentally at Los Alamos took a very quick and painful unnatural death from radiation poisoning–the Scientists certainly did not go in for clean up jobs. Nor did the Uranium Mining Companies take proper precautions for its miners–you can use any excuse to sacrifice men in the name of National Defense even after there is enough atomic artillery to destroy every living thing on earth.
And yes there are many, probably most scientists that are of a good and true nature and worry as much as any citizen about the environment and health of the people and the planet. But there are definitely some goats in high places that ought to be put out to pasture.
And to understand the goat– If you have a Mexican call you a Cabron, it is an insult–he called you a goat. If an Irishman calls you a Poc or if female a Minseach, I will let WTKTT tell you what that would mean.
Gary, I had missed your comments about how you were treated but wise enough to get under the whistle blower’s act. The experience shows the extremes people will go to maintain their devious actions and anyone exposing them will be attacked. Why so few want to go against the flow–too much pressure to point out wrongdoing by the cronies working their system.
Someone decided how the Yarnell incident should be presented to the public and others then with collusion and with fear tactics applied to those that wanted to tell what really went down to kill the GMHS, the culprits managed to arrange the presentation so reputations remained intact. The murky waters were looking good on the surface by their methods but the divers would go below the surface to see the sharks patrolling their territory.
And indeed, the Ukraine whistle blower will face controversy–likely he is one of the fellows who could not stand by when he witnessed obvious wrong doing. One man that wiould gladly stomp on you if you pointed out the wrongdoing of his ways would be Trump. This guy is going all out to maintain power–and unlike a Nixon, he will not be easy to admit wrongdoing even if he is caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
There is so much in government wrongdoing that is hidden under what is supposed National Security ruse. There are certain things that hold justification for those measures but I could bet some 90% hidden under the act would be considered criminal acts if facts were known.
There was a documentary about the Navy building underground and even under sea areas where a small city of people could reside for a long stay. It mentioned this had been going on since the 1940’s and even continues. It is well known there are several locations–well secured but places where there are at least three areas underground where certain elite can go should chemical or biological warfare or atomic warfare–or any other catastrophe should occur.
But I had in mind that it would seem strange that the Navy would be doing underground things. Then I remembered years ago I had asked Vern Harkness where he had gotten hold of his outdated stopers. Those stoper machines were not like a jack leg but had the air leg permanently attached to the drill machine and were such that you could only drill either vertical or perhaps up to a 45 degree angle. There was no water needle so you had to drill dry.
The point was he had told me he bought those at a Navy auction and I had always wondered what the hell would the Navy be doing with drill machines. They were Atlas Copco–heavy mine stopers–clumsy beasts to handle but nothing a jack leg couldn’t do better since a jack leg can do vertical or horizontal or even angle down holes. So likely the Navy had upgraded to more modern Jack Legs and gotten rid of those old stopers that Vern likely bought for a song.
It does make sense that the Navy would want under ground access to the sea for submarines and even areas below the ocean where people could survive a nuclear holocaust totally undetected.
We do know there are trillions of dollars were moved around and unaccounted for–when Building 7 went down–CIA records and records that included many black secret projects went down with it so only a few will know the extent of what was really spent on these projects. There were leaks and whistle blowers but Gary tells us exactly how it is done to discredit people by sending them to a Psych test and other means to present them as a mental case even on a project such as a forest service job then you can imagine how much more devious things can get as you go into the higher echelon of clandestine operations. People do go missing and if you remember the Foster case–connected with the operations of Bill Clinton then you can understand it is a situation where you can find your life at great risk.
I personally see the Democrat-Republican as essentially a one party system with both controlled by the same forces–Banks, Corporations, Oil and Chemical Companies and those individuals that are low key generally unknown yet own the political system and can easily make directives no matter who might be in office. They would be the 1% who own 90% of the wealth–those that would be first to occupy the underground cities should the shit hit the fan–and those that own the media in the back ground.
When Gary said that Whistle Blower that talked on Trump will have his life totally screwed with from now on–it is no joke. Some big money got Trump in since he is a friend of big business–where we go from here is anyone’s guess–but I got an idea the the nation will all be singing Aquarius within a very few decades.
Sonny,
I emailed you just so you know it was me today but I will not be near pc for awhile – maybe three times in this Season- I am in a on and off remote “off-grid” situation and awaiting STILL “clearance” to log back on to my blog- it has been a very rough time since coming back from D.C. yet if there is something we learned in pioneering, Sonny – there is “good times” and then there is those “rough times” but always good times again so I remember that but meanwhile if any ONE person wants to elaborate to me or the world on prior GMHS close call or near misses besides the Holloway Fire, please come share or visit me in person by name or anonymous … YOU MATTER and I am really wanting specific ones and wish I could name you but if you are reading this … please note … I know and I will help you or you help me if you please can manage in some way … it matters. I am not doing a book or movie ever on the tragedy but I am three to five percent from completion on June 30, 2013 and I know Corey Moser would beg to differ yet Corey you never met a person that was on those Weavers who has the depth of passion for that day and truth like the hikers will always have… I pray one day the person who had a falling out that afternoon if he would come to me; that person too. You seem to have got “freaked out” at the N.C. conference yet there is not a day that goes by that I think you can help even if I pulled the records on “PB” – it is your true account that matters. But so many accounts pending – too many …
I want to assure you the rest of information has not been stuff you can just “toss out” – oh hell no-
it has to be brought out just right not so much for sensitivities of others but for the sensitivity of it for sure not vanishing or denied or whatever yet in all my heart I know there is much more. I have to be glad in all things but it has not been easy if one knew all the details that has happened in 2019 especially- whoah … been a tough year
Sonny, I emailed these folks the past 24 hours because a “google alert” came to me and I will expect photo courtesy credit addendum to be made but this powerpoint presentation has us all through it without credit and I can only find the author properties as follows:
h t t p s ://7x24exchangerm.org/index.php
h t t p s ://7x24exchangerm.org/gallery.php?id=16
elementsofdisaster_03_23_2017.pptx – Microsoft PowerPoint Presentation (.pptx)
saved by Joseph Parrino for John N MacLean
I am documenting every conference and action of John Norman MacLean and the disrespect and inappropriate behaviors and illegal use without giving us proper photo credit on the pics in his presentations but in google search it does show:
#16 on left side is my photo in that Microsoft PowerPoint Presentation (.pptx) is my photo.
#17 my photo is on the left and the one on the right is from the hike with John Norman MacLean of us hikers.
#18 both my photos and he does mention us in description and so Fire20+ maybe you need to peak at his presentation because he does not say it is Moki helitack at 6:30am- you might wanna go read it since you are an avid investigation gal…he actually says “Marsh observed by Joy walking up the ridge ahead of his crew and later talking with someone on the ridge top.” Note that Fire20+ … yeah, later not “before” … “just saying” … it gets tiresome how many try to discredit or put lies and misinformation out there on me and my account … but hey I will challenge you always no matter who … really and Moser your days have not even surfaced on what we can learn from you on June 30, 2013, right?
#19 left photo is my photo.
#21 is all my photos.
#24 what an endearing photo of you Sonny helping me get up from spot you had left me on June 30 2013 – a re-enactment on the hike with John Norman MacLean yet John stated “1: 10 PM: Tex saves Joy and the hikers head out to the west.” … to clarify … the photo was taken above the Helms on the 2 track by the old burned bush and we headed West for a moment to get to Congress side then headed East which is Number 11 Anthony Rose on the Arizona State GMHS Memorial Park then down to Acri’s and out towards the Susan’s on Foothill Rd. so little bit right but more information is needed because to say headed west and leave it at that means we went towards the flaming front out by the old grader and we veered South then East…
#26 – I am getting sleepy but this photo looks to be one of mine zoomed in and I would have to fact check so I am tired and about to close this post out – yet it was something I wanted on Google Search results that I gave the photo credit to a presentation that had my information and I have always asked for photo credit- I mean come on, you all who made profits and income out there – it is not much to ask for … I mean John ruined it for so many because I use to state only photo credit yet that shifted that you have to now ask my permission and reason for using my photo since I seen so many misuse of them. I gave the world the chance to be pure – it was some who changed my photo usage so now I ask for my handwritten permission “photo release” – I never at that time imagined people to be distasteful in the manner I have seen.
#32- that photo was the pic John Norman MacLean took and he was present when all that happened and it was many months later…
and Sonny this was me at the hotel who wrote this:
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-481075
it would not allow my name on there and I was frustrated and tried your name and it posted-
h t t p ://7x24exchangerm.org/images/downloads/2017_Presentations/elementsofdisaster_03_23_2017.pptx
Joy–Yes I believe you said you had posted under my name but it was obvious you were the one posting–well understood since you were unable to post under your own. It was an interesting post OCT 4:2019 and I had not seen it.
Sonny,
I have been in Santa Fe-
I met some old Grants NM miners yesterday –
when I am near an able place I will email you a man who may know you-
They are way old timers and they knew about Gary’s father and said many of men died in that mine noone even knows about – “tramp miners”
you are lucky to be alive, Sonny the way they report the treatment you all saw-
they said it was a daily war no woman could ever get-
I was at a wealthy type ranch yesterday – a kind of place only seen in movies – and I walked the area and if I ever participate in this firefighting role – I need to bring more tools along and not a pulaski or fire shelter.
Anyways- still in recovery stage and if my site emailed me I am not able to get on there anytime soon to get to it.
Just a pop in to let you know Sonny I am still breathing
I think it is breathing
it is for sure one foot in front of the other
Yes there is a sadness for Gary’s father–something that should never have happened. For those that do not know, Gary’s father fell or was knocked down a 900 ft shaft that I later worked in known as Section 30, Grants, New Mexico and owned by Kerr McGhee Mining Company. There were few safety precautions taken since the government was in a rush to get a stock pile of Uranium under the idea that the country needed the security of more atomic bombs. I believe the date he was killed was 1963–the early stages of the mine. Perhaps Gary will correct me on that since I had worked there in my younger years for a time and I believe about two years after he was killed. I later returned and again did time in that mine. Maybe Gary will give us his name–he is one of the unsung heroes of Uranium mining that gave his life with good intentions of risking it all for that need of Uranium. I saw his photos and had them on a computer and felt the comradeship a wild land fighter would feel for a fallen wild land fire fighter.
Gary’s father was indeed a true underground miner wearing the same yellow suits that you often see firefighter in during wet situations. I believe someone knocked him down the shaft either accidentally or by some silly joke. I was once goosed near an open shaft and boy did I take a swing at the joker that did it. Not funny but just as in fire fighting you will find idiots that ought to have the shit kicked out of them. Those are life and death situations and not a place for horseplay.
About every hundred feet or so there are tunnels going back in off the main shaft–levels as you would lable them such as the 100 foot level, 200 foot level and so on down to the 1200 ft. level which would have been the bottom of that mine. The tunnels going off from the shaft can go in any direction but go following the richest Uranium Ore. That is found by drilling long holes–usually 75 ft drill holes -and I have done these –you use a jack leg which is essentially a Jack Hammer you see on streets attached to an air leg that lifts the machine for you so you can drill horizontally or vertically or any angle in between. The long holes are made by screwing on a 4 foot piece of drill steel as you advance until reaching what distance the geologist wants to push a probe up into to measure radioactive levels.
So there is a little about the experience of Uranium Mining and I had known when my son Ted got caught up in a huge boat winch by his glove catching on a frayed cable how that could happen. When blasting out uranium in a stope you tie a slusher bucket off by drilling a hole in the face after a blast then screwing in a rock bolt and plate with your jack leg and a steel that has a socket to fit the square head of a rock bolt. A block or pully is hung off the bolt and plate and cable that is attatched to the back of the slusher bucket. That way you can pull the bucket back to the face over the muck and ore–there is another cable attached to the front of the bucket to drag it back toward the operator. That winch of course has two sides, one side pulls the bucket forward the other side back and is operated with a lever–and yes with slusher cables you could be caught in one like Ted was–but once you take your hand off the lever it snaps back and immediately stops the winch. So on the same principle my son had his arm literally torn loose from his body and was being wrapped up in a huge boat winch–by luck a boss heard his screams and ran and shut the winch down. Simply because they neglected to replace a defective lever my son lost the use of his arm and eventually died from the medications to keep him out of pain. He had gone through many operations, including removing nerves all the way from his ankles to his buttocks which they attempted to implant in his arm but that never worked.
So you see how I can be so angered that Gary’s Dad’s death was never properly reported, nor were the Storm King Deaths reported truthfully as to causes, nor were the Montana
Mann Gulch deaths reported with the correct information. Dr. Ted Putnam was lead investigator on the Storm King involving 14 deaths and he spent years–I believe about 10–investigating those 13 deaths. He certainly was not wanted to investigate the Yarnell incident of 19 deaths and was even discouraged from going into that area. He had found too many discrepancies in the 27 earlier wild land fire fighting deaths so that the so called Fire Gods, tin men that they are, were totally uncomfortable having him anywhere around. His credentials are too overwhelming and his character impeccable to have such an authority on wild land fire deaths looking into another cover up.
So yes, Joy, I did have a tinge of guilt after I had learned that the hybrid GMHS crew had dropped off in that box canyon of choked manzanita growth. I had though what if I could have been there to stop them. How could they have done that knowing they were supposed seasoned wild land fire fighters-it would be like a Uranium miner going into an open stope. (an open stope is an open area where no mesh was bolted up to keep a rock of slab from falling and either injuring or killing you). And if a miner did that and he were seen by a boss or shifter and reported he would automatically be fired–the one thing they would automatically fire you for since too many were injured or killed that way–a big expense on the company.
There you have it–a bit about the hard rock and Uranium tramp miner. The tramp miner came from miners because they were such a breed that you did not fuck with them–they knew their lives were on line and kind of like a war zone. And mining depends on the price of metals or demand. When tungsten was up the mines were open–but as soon as price drops they would close so your job was always iffy. I was a raise miner at Fierro, NM for a measly 9 months when a strike shut that one down. A zinc mine I worked in at Mt Hope Nevada I was fired because the boss and I were together on a three day drunk–he would not let me go back to work and wanted the company. I did not care–that was a rat hole and I was nearly killed there more than once–once a slab as big as a pickup truck fell within a foot of making a pancake out of me and George–that boss I was with. That was one dangerous rat hole–but I was at work in the Union Carbide Tungsten mine near Rachael, NV within two days of being fired. That mine shut down in only a year or so–tungsten prices and it just did not make Union Carbide enough money. But I had rolled my pickup and dis located a shoulder so lost that job.
But you can see the independence of being a miner but know that as high a paying occupation as it is, it is iffy. My Mormon helper at that Tempaiute mine bought himself a new pickup and got in debt since he had thought that job was going to be a long one. It shut down soon after my accident. The sad thing was some from Bisbee Arizona were coming there. That open pit mine had operated for years and some of those miners–I have never been an open pit miner–but they had almost got to retirement –you needed 20 years–then the mine shut down so Phillips Dodge did not have to pay retirement to any of them so they were seeking jobs at random mines and an open pit miner is not savvy to underground mining. But that is the way the cookie crumbles for some.
Here I am still picking up rocks on the desert hikes I am making and can smile this morning at seeing the fellows–my pooches wrestle with each other and happy to see they are going to be amply fed and walked on another hike–without leashes I might add. I dont have one either or a barbed wire around my neck that someone wants to twist.
I did only two short hikes today–those recent October rains had mudded up a field that is a drainage area about a half mile back. So I did cross at least a quarter mile area where I had to hop from grass mound to mound but still areas where your clod-hoppers get mudded so bad that you have extra pounds on your shoes. An Indian would have taken off his moccasins and waded through bare footed–but I did not think of that until now–other things on my mind and I was able to bear the weight by huffing and puffing. It was a great thing to get across that plain and I could see that the dry lake some two more miles south had filled with water.–That lake had killed one cow that got stuck there and I had photos of–she looked like a cattle mutilation when I hiked by her carcass a few weeks back when the lake was bone dry–but despite what looked like she had been dropped from a heilcopter, I know she was stuck in the mud when that lake bed had filled with rain water. I wondered why the rancher had not tried to rescue her since his home faces that dry lake bed and she was about three quarters of a mile away in his plain sight. She was close enough to the edge of the lake and the water had to be shallow–less than 3 inches I would say since the mud was pushed up by her sides and with both legs folded under there was an evidence trail for only about three ft where she either struggled or slid–but no tracks leading in–her carcuss is still there but you would be wading shallow water and fighting mud to get to her. Oddly my dog the “White Coyote” and Blackie would not get close and there was no evidence of any coyotes or other carrion had ever approached the animal. Generally the buzzards and animals tear a dead animal apart and scatter bones everywhere but this one had been dead what looked to be months and was now petrified and only the hide peeled back from the face exposing up to just above the eye sockets? Strange and I will go back for more photos after the two or three inches of H2O evaporate. My phone that had the other photos was ran over by a semi when I forgot it on the side of my pick up.
For some reason because I had remembered that building 7 came down like a demolition job, I was interested in how that is done. I have used dynamite and prima cord wrapped around a timber or a stick of powder (dynamite) tied to a 12×12 timber will cause it to splinter apart. I had understood that 1700 engineers were not satisfied with the government version of things and had signed a petition to get a re-investigation. The government had lagged its feet–they had enough to deal with on the twin towers and those deaths so it was 7 years until the Building 7 investigation was completed.
Then there was a fireman on TV the other day of 30 years NY experience of burning buildings–He said in his 30 years of experience he had never seen high rise buildings come down due to an office fire. Building 7 sustained very little damage where some of the other buildings did but did not implode as did 7 and the twin towers.
A guy with 30 years in the NY City fire fighting ought to know his onions damn well and this guy had witnessed the fall of these buildings so I had to think wow–but it must be hard as hell to bring a building down.
Now having been an underground miner and having handled dynamite and even cramming it into holes for my Dad, I thought I ought to look into this building demolition thing. To my surprise it is not all that complicated. Of course, like mining, you need to have a good period of experience on how much dynamite to use, where to drill your holes and how to space them and a burn hole so you can pull the round. There are different ways to do it but each has to be done correctly or the round freezes and you will find yourself usually with a difficulty of re drilling and re firing a round. If you happen to drill into a dud hole which did occasionally happen to miners they they were off to their maker. I have drilled out a few rounds that did not fully pull and you are sure to have a few holes with dynamite still loaded in them–and it is a risky thing to do if you don’t see those and properly fire them before re drilling.
But the demolition I find is not all that complicated–I see they mainly take out the support beams on the first floor with charges and the middle support is fired first if you want the building to implode on itself. Electric blasting caps are set in milliseconds so that you can use them according to what you want to do. In pulling a round in a face say in a tunnel you would fire the burn hole first–that pulls out enough rock so you can then fire your center holes, then the back or top holes then the bottom holes say to shove the muck back or if you prefer in a v cut work the v from center to the side–all done will millisecond electric caps or if fuses you cut shorter ones for the burn hole and so forth.
So with a building they sometimes do also the second floor and if it is very tall then the charges are set to beams ever so many floors like a sequence of towers. Of course a plan is needed of the building to locate the support beams and a bit of time to drill cement around the steel support beams and get a hotter type special explosive next to the steel. Computers are now used as well to determine the best charge so this stuff is something a miner could learn fairly quick.
For mine charges you string a double stranded wire out from the face a ways where the blast won’t affect you and touch the ends to a battery or a box that is made for that purpose–a battery works fine since it takes very little electricity to set off a blasting cap. But in a building situation it is the use of a remote switch and a cheap 6 V battery or the like and you just send a radio frequency out from a mile away if you want–why you see them say turn off radios in a blasting area–in case they happen to be using remote switches.
So maybe that fire man had his first view of some imploding buildings–but it was not all that complicated to do that.
Joy, The people from the UK did show up to film the ordeal about my dog shooting me. I took all day–tired me out for sure –started at 8 and ended at 4. Had me lay under the truck as I had after being shot and many takes of the dogs and retakes. I had not known that it would be a job. So Mark my son was there as well and will be paid $250 for taking off from work. I am not sure how their take will be but I am sure some Brits will get entertained.
I did talk about the 19 and their demise and also about the half million tons of retardant that was dumped around Yarnell with the loss of 200 elderly in 6 years after those dumps. They were amazed to hear that and knew nothing about the 19 deaths of the GMHS. So I did direct them to Investigative Media–maybe it will draw some attention there since outsiders have a more objective view of things that the media here caught in a hard place not wanting to face too many of the facts since the general consensus it to go with the flow.
Long day–Cheers and Happy Trails.
That should have maybe been half million gallons retardant. We never had any real solid statistics on that and I was going off what someone has posted somewhere. Maybe WTKTT or someone knows the facts of all that was dumped on the Yarnell Fire and the Tenderfoot Fire soon after–I had mentioned both fires.
It is cold outside enough I have lighted up my tin heater and even enjoying a baloney slice being fried in a skillet on top. I made popcorn on it last night and perfect–enough I did a second batch while watching a documentary. Truth has always been stranger than fiction to me and I am certain with all the government secrecy that we are even ahead of the star wars movies in technology–much of course such as free energy will not be revealed. The powers that be are beholden to oil companies and chemical giants that expend millions to put them in office and besides own the media as well.
They will tell you the economy will be ruined if we get off oil–always garbage but presented in a way the general public will believe –after all they voted these entities into office –or did they really and did it matter which of the two you have represent your interest?
Most religious people will have you basing your life on faith–so you have a faith in your Preacher, Priest., Rabbi, or Mullah and in your President since God said you should and not only that you voted for him/her and you ought to have faith in yourself and God. Well if you are an alien you better have faith in An and Anna–and if a Celt, Ana (Danu),. or if a Viking perhaps Odin and Frigg might help matters, and if an Indian perhaps one of the Gods of the Happy hunting grounds or if Mayan, Itzamna, the creator Goddess. You might even respect the earliest of writings in cuneiform and refer to An and his sons Inki and Inlil, or some of their later generations of Osirus and other entities. But at least your brain has been trained and you live in a contented state awaiting your turn to either be raptured or moved to Hades, or maybe Pergatory, then a Heaven of sorts and descriptions depending upon the trends, cultures, fakirs, preachers, Bible interpretations, Pope’s ideas, and so forth of the era.
Good luck, there are 7 and one half billion residing now and plenty of billions already deceased so if you get a ticket to be among the 144,000 it will be like winning the lottery chances reduced by a factor of ten I suspect. Well you might have a pretty good Biblical chance since King David had a soldier killed so he could lay with his wife and he is touted as one of God’s favorites. But I think a tearful repentance got him some reprieve there and for a few other bad things he did. Well he knocked out and sliced up that giant and sent his arms, torso, head and other parts around to various kingdoms to express how you might wind up against the tribe of Judah. I think he kept the big penis for his own prize possession.
Well whatever idea you have for religion is fine with me. I do not proselyte–we have too much hidden and too many lies fed to us from birth so that the authoritarian types maintain their control, the preachers, priests and even the devil worshipers enjoy their stations and life goes on more or less in a mundane fashion with people accepting the propaganda and life on murky, often stormy but sometimes still waters How can we know if we do not know the facts and truth of matters — just so many phonies in the world and those that will not own up to the truth in important matters–we are left to have to delve into things ourselves. Can we accept the unacceptable?
But I was not to muse on that line of thought–instead about mining uranium and stopes. Wild land fire fighters start out as heroes. Uranium miners and most hard rock miners are usually dreaded dregs of society–wild men found in your worst dives, let all hell loose once they survive a day at the mine and acting as if it is their last day alive though they might have many and a retirement of good old age slim but possible.
I was a tramp miner–a name given to the type miner who when things were not right or the mine shut down because the mine was no longer profitible would grab his sleeping bag, diggers and hard hat and hit the road to where it was rumored miners were needed. It was 99% sure you had a job if that mine was operating and God always allows miners into heaven since he knows they won’t stay long despite Peter at the gate wanting to keep them out.
So about stopes=- Stopes are the miners’ working face. They can be just a few feet wide–say 15 or even 50 and an open stope is very dangerous. Open stopes are created by pulling Pillars. The Pillars are what holds the mine up. In Uranium mining in the richest ore, every 50 ft crosscuts are made so that 50 foot square pillars are made. Then there is pulling Pillars. The Pillar miner is akin to the Raise Miner in that it is a job that is bound to eventually get you hurt or killed. The Pillar miner goes in and starts slicing off the edges of the tunnels and shushing the ore out so that there is an open stope. In Uranium mining it was nothing to look up over a hundred feet where the unsupported sandstone had fallen in an open stope. So my hard hat is off to the many Pillar miners that did not make it or were hurt–especially in Uranium mining.
Hard Rock mining is not so bad in open stopes but as I once said I have had a slab the size of a vehicle only more dense fall so close more than once that only good fortune had been the reprieve. George Latham, foreman and a man that his lungs were so bad that he had to take ten minutes to climb a 30 ft. ladder was with me on one of those times in the Mt Hope Zinc mine in Nevada. But mining is like going to war–you become very religious and just do what the Bible says eat, drink and be merry. If you are a mormon-and I had a Mormon helper at the Tungsten mine 7 miles out of Rachael Nevada, that downwind place for cancer studies, and I think he said thank you Joseph when he stubbed his toe. I wonder if he is still alive–likely cause he was not a tramp miner and had other interests and affiliations.
So, yes–might be a good thing for the wild land fire fighter to have a mentor. And maybe it is not a bad idea to do what the GMHS crew did concerning religion if it can get you away from drugs then go for Jesus or Allah–though I am not for head bumping of any kind. Even the foot ball players wear helments–and I can’t count the times I have bumped my head in a tight rat hole when I did not have a hard hat on.
But the whole world lives dangerously–just avoid it where possible–but someone has to do the dirty work.
Now before you make a joke about someone believing in UFO’, you need to go to Tubi and get through a documentary titled BEYOND THE SPECTRUM– It is a bit hard getting through the beginning where Jaime Maussan describes his Journalistic Journey and how he got there. Jaime speaks good enough English and it is easy to see he is an honest person–quite sincere at getting at the truth of a situation.
After the documentary some might want to get an infrared camera–but not all is on infrared. There is also an American pilot telling his encounter–with others–and just too many people that see these things and now record them.
Perhaps someday I will tell of my experience of a silent bright light hovering over me sometime in the desert night maybe midnight maybe earlier and the next thing I remember is walking down the Southern Pacific railroad with ripped up clothing–and to this day I can not tell you what happened to get me 20 miles from where I had seen that light? Joy knows the whole story–but like most you just do not want to be called a crazy by telling something you absolutely know happened but have no explanation of it. On that track I was walking the wrong way like a zombie when my mind suddenly began to register again. What was it? Well it was a brain farc for sure–and to this day no recollection of that interim. I have been there since to see the distance and from where I was to where I wound up is way too far to have made it walking through the mesquites, barbed wire fences, ditches and obstacles–so did an alien grab me and suck me up into that light? Your guess is a good as mine.
And maybe like the Yarnell incident I will get to the rest of the story–maybe even sooner than six years.
I once sold gold when it was around 300–I was good at it and people that bought some in the hundreds of thousands from me made a killing once it went up. I am now buying myself a bit of silver–it has been low for a long time about 20 per ounce–expect it to take off once that market bubbles. Well otherwise hang on to the green back–it will do well for paper decorations and St Patrick day fire starter.
But this country will never go broke–how can it–when the government needs money they borrow from the Fed Reserve by taking an official looking paper and exchanging that for green backs. That goes into the Bank–and the Bank only needs 10% on deposit so they can lend out 90% which is mostly deposited right back and again they can lend out another 90% and so on so they create a bunch of debt and do well with usury. When short of money they can again print a piece of paper with a neat seal and official looks–trade it to the Federal Reserve for more green backs–of course they pay an interest fee of green backs to get that money supply but they also get to lend out all that and more for their interest–the debtors are all happy paying the interest and things are good. But somewhere folks might figure out the pyramid scheme it is —and that might be a good time to have some silver, gold or a good sack of beans and potatoes. Gold is expensive right now–but maybe not if you have lots of the green–if not opt for silver but it is heavier.
Trump was about to refuse a few hundred millions of these green backs to the Ukraine if they did not investigate Biden and Son–but it might cost him some. Kind of like Nixon when he had his cronies break into the Democratic Headquarters. These guys fight among each other–and do crap like that–but just don’t get caught since the other side will want your seat. Using tax payer money to induce investigations of political enemies might not be Kosher.
I think that was Prince Phillip–I am not one to keep up on English royalty–but the Christmas Tree decorated Prince (uniform similar to the Colin Powell regalia)–did state he wished to destroy the major portion of the Earth’s population by returning if he can as a deadly virus to do just that. Maybe Gaia or his secret gods are working on his wish.
So you want to know what are in the Chem trails. This is from the horse’s mouth–a couple military pilots who have dispersed the SEAD–a program that they have been doing full force for over a decade. Most of the chem trail dispersion is done with commercial jets–the pilots unaware of the SEAD additive in their fuel–they can not even see the trails from their cockpits But the military pilots are under STS-12 orders. Their planes are equipped with dispersion nozzles but well camouflaged so hard to detect..
The SEAD stands for Strontium, Enriched Atmospheric Dispersant. That sounds just like government lingo–Defensible Space and other terms to make things look scientific. The job is to do a sortie ADO (Atmospheric Dispersal Operation).
If any of the yellowish SNEAD is spilled or a leak happens in the nozzel area, the pilot must call a HAZMAT team to clean it up. But if there is a question about Hazmat suits, they are to say it is oil from the jet and the Hazmat suits on the clean up team is only to teach those men or practice in the use of the suits. In their more than ten years of flights they say only twice was there a leak–the inspections and work is very meticulous when using this SNEAD since it is higly corrosive and you have to know poisonous.
The ingredients beside Strontium are generally Barium and particulate aluminum. Barium of course is and has been used as a rodent killer. The aluminum particulate is a great health concern. EPA plays it down some but admits to lung problems, bone disease, kidney disease and birth defects–young children on the bone disease. And I have to wonder what trade secret ingredients the government has added as well.
There are thousands of jets daily and if you have not witnessed the chem trails then you need glasses. Con trails use to be clear within 5 minutes or less, especially at low altitudes in areas like Arizona. Texas, and the like. Hot dry air evaporates con trail water vapor almost immediately. So I can remember when you would see a jet with only a small white trail behind.
Obviously when you witness parallel chem trails those are not commercial air lines and sometimes those will be criss crossed to make the chemical thicker in the atmosphere. “But no matter, there are thousands of jet flights and all commercial fuel has the additives.
The scientists involved say it is absolutely necessary since global warming is already beyond reversing. Without the dispersants they have determined that the temperatures would already be in the destructive stages so that crops, people, aquatic life and environment would be in a destructive stage. Maybe they have something–are these mega fires not only due to over protection of forests, but also abnormal temperatures?
Anyway there is much to argue here since independent studies of such areas of the earth as the snows on Mt. Ranier have concentrations of aluminum exceedingly concentrated–enough to kill small rodents already. And like the retardants–years of applications have caused accumulations that border feed disasters for health, environment, and aquatic life.
There is no wonder for the increase in disease such as cancers and heart and lung problems. It is to be expected with the chemicals so profusely dispersed even in the air.
The information comes from a pilot who wrote it and printed actual copies of his dispersal manual. The documents are all titled STS-12 at the top–quite risky on his part but published anonymously. His statement–he was told the information would be out before now yet continues to be kept secret. He says people need to know how far things have gone so that it is now necessary to have these constant dispersals to protect climate. He stated much had to do with solar flares as well.
;Published 2017, it can be purchased on Ebay for $25 titled SMOKING GUN. That is a dollar a page–but most pages of fed documents STS-12. Education costs for a bat hide are extremely expensive these days depending on where you go–but even the cheap ones are expensive. Knowledge is at the base of freedom. It is also a form of empowerment. You are not so easily fooled if you have the facts for the truth.
Sorry–I meant Amazon, not Ebay–though they might have copies as well.
Came across this section on ” Box Canyons ” today from an article by John Reed titled: “John T. Reed’s review of The Unforgiving Minute by Craig Mullaney.” John Reed is a researcher and author that was a Team Leader in Vietnam.
( http://www.johntreed.net/UnforgivingMinute.html )
” Box canyons
“I was an elementary school kid in the 1950s, the era of cowboy movies and cowboy TV shows. Like all kids of that era, there are old snapshots of me wearing cowboy clothes and a pair of six-shooters in holsters. We loved Hopalong Cassidy, the Cisco Kid, the Lone Ranger (I saw him and his horse Silver in person at the state fair), Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, and a bunch of others.
” Any kid from that era knows you must stay out of box (dead end) canyons or narrow rocky canyons when you are moving around in enemy territory. Time and again in cowboy and cavalry movies, the good guys would come upon such a terrain feature. The smart good guys would stop and find a way around it. Only the dumb settlers or immigrants would go into those canyons. Bad guys and Indians would ambush people in those places. Afghans have been ambushing people like the British and Soviets in such canyons for centuries.
” What is correct military doctrine for passage through narrow canyons? Based on the Hollywood cowboys, just say no.
“I must admit I was in some hairy situations in Vietnam … We were very vulnerable at the bottom of a bowl of jungle-covered mountains. My men and I survived that simply because the enemy chose not to attack there. No other reason. Similar to what happened to Craig. But I never went into such a situation where there was an alternative.
“… there was a standing order throughout Vietnam that American and Allied forces did not move on the roads at night. We found a place to sleep for the night and left first thing in the morning. I never got any crap about it that I know of. I think the boss simply decided, “Yeah, that’s right. it was too late to start.” The problem is there are too many junior officers who would have said an order is an order. Craig may be one of them. I was not there so I cannot draw the conclusion. But the point still needs to be made for readers who may find themselves in those situations in the future.
“Apparently, the modern U.S. military does not have that knowledge. In the Pat Tillman friendly fire death, his unit was moving through a rock walled canyon so narrow that their humvee scraped against both sides of the canyon at times. A soldier who normally would have his head on a swivel scanning for enemy instead laid on his back on the humvee roof looking straight up the rock cliff walls because that was the only place an attack could come from. Of course, that begs the question of exactly what was he planning to do if such an attack came vertically down on them.”
Surely, the GMHS were among the smart guys that watched Westerns when they were growing up, ey. McDid-Not stated that they were in one of his interviews …
Reed also asks an interesting question elsewhere in the paper in the section titled “Killed his platoon”:
” Please name a U.S. Army platoon leader in the entire history of the country who ever “killed his platoon.” How would one accomplish that? ”
A quick GTS reveals: “Three or four squads make up a platoon, which has 20 to 50 soldiers and is commanded by a lieutenant.”
RTS says do not get caught in a box canyon in a fire fight–and GMHS crew did. But high ground above a fire is deadly as well since the fire will take the high ground in a hurry. You certainly did not want to be trapped in that box canyon the GMHS crew were in since the fire was below them whether it came from the Shrine, Sesame St. Dirt Road or even from the main fire itself. The two track was highly dangerous as well –that piece of white 2″ PVC pipe in the middle of the two track where they went down was scorched brown and melted into a snake by the fire. When Amanda wrote that people do not know fires, she was right. GMHS crew did not either and it seems that some wild land fire fighters have no clue of the dangers of getting caught in a box canyon or above a fire below apt to reverse direction. Was it because these men were hybrid fire fighters that knew about house fires but very little about wild fires?
Everyone talks about lessons learned at Yarnell. There were no lessons to be learned. What went down there was plain ignorance and for a wild land fire fighter stupidity. Those lessons of keeping out of box canyon were already known. Those would be criminal acts to disregard the lessons Marsh and Steed already knew to carelessly risk 17 young lives they were responsible for. Like RTS, Steed likely served in Viet Nam as a Marine. He would have known not to get trapped in any box canyon in a fire fight–be it bullets or wild fires. He died a hero for his service yet really screwed up by obeying orders from Marsh and if the story is true, he did it against his better judgement even to the point of arguing with Marsh.
It stands to reason that chain of command in wild land fire fighting is stringent enough to cause people to obey superiors even in cases like the killing of the GMHS crew. That idea of having to strictly obey orders on a daily basis is likely what Steed had in his head–what he expected out of his crew, he also had to set the example by obeying Marsh even at that dire risk he knew he would be taking. That problem needs to be addressed and discussed with crews and bosses–absolutely do not obey orders when some ass orders you down into a box canyon when you know that is a pilgrim move and why so many were caught as RTS points out–trapped in a Box Canyon.
Those stories by RTS remind me of what my Dad told me about catching the Germans at Alsace Lorraine. He said his outfit and another company had set up on high ground on both sides of a canyon. The German troops were marching through on low ground unaware—Crossfire from high ground in his words and they fell like cord wood. He was a machine gunner and that would be equivalent to a wild fire with machine guns coming down in a cross fire. They had wiped out a company of men in minutes just as the wild fire had taken out the GMHS crew in minutes and all because the German command had taken their men through what amounted to a box canyon situation.
The Lone Ranger and Tonto were no fools–you wouldn’t catch those two in a box canyon with outlaws around. I think Roy Rogers and even Dale Evans would have avoided the narrow canyons and Box Canyons with desperadoes on the loose. And when my Dad cut loose on some bad men and claim jumpers he took the high ground–they had lost the battle before it started.
The platoon of GMHS with said 2nd lieutenant Marsh was wiped in in their fire fight at Yarnell. Said platoon was caught in a box canyon with no escape route.
During the Viet Nam war most 2nd lieutenants were what were called 90 day wonders. They got a bat hide at some University then a bit of military training and were then put in charge of a platoon. The results were sometimes fatal since experience in war games overrides book learning. My MOS was Bulldozer Operator Engineer Corps and my orders did not involve me in fire fights. I strictly obeyed orders on a daily basis and my heart goes out to those that did as well and the sadness that many of our young men that are war time vets came back in body bags. War is a horror scene and the Viet Nam thing has always been debated–yet the men including myself that were involved believed it to be the right thing to do. My Dad tried to join the second world war after serving the first. He saw defending the country as a duty. Yet he too had questioned the Viet Nam thing yet was not a friend of Communism.
These days we see so many of our Vets coming back maimed and I sometimes wonder if this oil is worth the cost of all those young lives. Those men too believe in what they do and are heroes for their efforts. Yet there is technology to ween us from oil. Global warming is a real concern and the young ones are right in making an issue of it. This is their inheritance and some of them are gung ho to protect the planet. It is a shame that Trump is weighing America’s greatness based on wealth instead of doing the right and proper things–protecting the health of the people and environment. The pollution problem is real and the chemical world and oil world that is a big part of that must be throttled–and those kids need the example–not of greed but of doing the right thing.
Sonny,
Here’s a classic box canyon scene with some Groupthink to boot.
“The Big Country – Blanco Canyon Sequence” ( le0pard13 – Dec 14, 2010 )
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SDYkONnfCw )
“… When it becomes apparent that he and his men will be riding into an ambush, the Major turns to Steve for support. However, this man has had his bellyful of mindless violence and says so. The Major rides off alone to meet whatever fate awaits him. … ”
“… Steve gallops into view, drawing level with the Major he looks back to see the rest of the ranch hands come one by one round the rim of the canyon. … the importance of loyalty, affection and sheer guts even when good sense should dictate otherwise. ”
And maybe even some of the Abilene Paradox as well.
RTS, Probably almost identical to what happened at Yarnell. I could imagine Marsh not saying are you yellow but implying it. And even after Steed giving the back talk finally deciding to what the hell–if Marsh had done it I will chance it too and then likely Steed telling the men falling in line or stand back if you want. It would have taken some grit to be the one standing back there. And had Donut been there he would have been the first in line behind Steed. That was a scene of peer pressure extreme.
A sad scene for Marsh and his argument to do the unthinkable by risking lives to protect structures when nothing could have been done against such intense fire. I don’t know how mega fires are identified but if the fire scientists Wooten and Morrison were correct in saying the Yarnell Fire was releasing energy equal to a Hiroshima type A Bomb every 15 minutes that might fit the classification. Certainly what we were witnessing I knew an Army could not have slowed.
I would guess from the clip that those cowboys did not get hung up in a box canyon and managed to get through although the scene had them going through some country they could have easily been picked off from the bluffs.
Sonny,
A clarification and / or correction here.
You posted: “Like RTS, Steed likely served in Viet Nam as a Marine.”
RTS was NOT a Marine or anything else in any branch of the military, ever.
After Jesse graduated from high school he joined the United States Marine Corps, serving from 1996 until 2000. So then, he was clearly way too young and served in the wrong years long after the Viet Nam era
That would be true–that war ended in 1975–I was drafted July of 1967. You are right–he missed any war then. with Gulf war 90-91. He was much younger than I thought. Somehow the descriptions given by the press had me thinking he was a war time vet–no matter he served and did a good job I am certain or he would not have been able to advance as he did in wild land fire fighting.
He would have been, because of his training adhering to the GMHS creed that stated “you must strictly take orders on a daily basis”. There used to be a sign of the wild land fire fighter standards a person had to meet to become of wild land fire fighter posted along with the names of the GMHS crew there in Yarnell. I don’t know if it is still there but it listed some things that would turn most people away from wild land fire fighting.
Then I saw a whole crew of ladies being taken out of prison and used as wild land fire fighters and I thought how could this be since the description of the wild land fire fighter as posted there in Yarnell would test even the hardiest man. Maybe Joy has a photo of that since I know she took photos of it.
And that was sad–taking women out of prison and not paying them a wild land fire fighter wage knowing that they are being used like a soldier as gun fodder. Some greedy bastard gets rewarded while they do his job and he directs them. This world is too much based on greed and using people like that is equal to slavery. Certain they are paying for their crimes–many for smoking weed or other dope or peddling it–I call these petty crimes of the poor and uneducated. The wealthy and educated go to the doctor to get their dope but it is costly–works more or less the same though.
Well, the grunt wild land fire fighter is not all that rich and some use weed and dope pretty regular. I think Marsh even had a weed thing on him and we know Donut did time for his habit.
Double the wage for any wild land fire fighter is only fair these days and especially knowing what went down at Yarnell. A fire fighter in a crew is almost totally dependent on the boss of the crew. Those young men, trained as they are, if Donut is any example, are clueless as to safety and how to understand the nature of wild land fires and the importance of knowing a few things about them
Ted Putnam told me about an incident where he literaly had to cuss out and threaten a couple guys that were going to follow orders from their boss to go down in a situation that would have killed them. The fire burned over the very area they were headed to. Tells you how in too many instances these people do not understand or even follow common sense and can get themselves trapped as the GMHS crew did. Too bad Ted wasn’t there that day–he would have again saved some lives–but so would about a hundred other wild land bosses that we know about.
Well anyone serving as a wild land fire fighter is on a battlefield to preserve the things including lives of their fellow Americans and deserve highest honors. Those 17 fell through no fault of their own and I am inclined to give some slack even to Marsh since I believe the system let him slip through and Steed was a classic example of brain wash to strictly follow orders on a daily basis–his Marine training followed over into his leadership duties and despite his disputations with Marsh he would succumb and follow orders of the superior position of Marsh. These are my own ideas and opinions and if you wish to challenge them I want to hear and also why what I have said does not make sense. I would like an alternative explanation lie God fucked with their minds or the devil did or maybe some alien or the smoke had some chemicals from mind altering bushes that screwed with their minds. None sensible there–but what makes sense is the screening of bosses very carefully so you do not get another Marsh taking men down in a deadly situation.
I have hounded on Marsh–but I am not the only one, and rightly so. Maybe the tin men in charge above Marsh grade will start to take notice–maybe the rinky dink politicians that know so little about fire fighting will listen and start demanding a change in the system. It is a shame they have not noticed by now–but then if your life is about where the most influence and votes will be perhaps 19 lives is a small issue and since the majority of voters are already convinced along with likely the uninformed politicians, the Fire Fighting at Yarnell, the debacle that it was remains untold. The Fire Gods are safe for now, reputations intact and no changes be made. God fucked these guys over since he needed them somewhere else and if God did not do it, then it was just one of those things in wild land fire fighting–accidental death no one did anything even remotely wrong. Makes you want to puke. And what about those 200 lives that are dead after the retardant dumps–since they are citizens and generally elderly they might not register high on their agenda.
Anyway I was not going to post on the Yarnell thing. But we need to ban knives now–some bloke killed four with his knife in a police station in France–those knives are dangerous. No matter what you have some yoko is going to figure a way to use it to kill people. Car bombs, airplane bombs, knives, guns, rocks, sticks, and especially base ball bats ought to be banned. Al Capone was known to kill people that way.
The only reason anything is banned is because the government in charge is not trusting the people. The reason gun ownership in the second amendment was made was because if a militia needed to be formed to protect the rights of the people then it could. Those fore fathers knew there could be a time when a tyrannical government could again try to rule them. We fought the British for the express purpose to keep the country safe from such as the King George types. He was taxing hell out of the hard earned money of the colonists and even housing his military in private homes.
If You think gun control is a good thing then be ready to be the servant to the government you deserve to be. The government was formed under the constitution to serve the people but that has been steadily turning around as you see when now people in government can assess your private phone call, emails or anything at all if at their whim they decide to do so.
I thought Beto might be a good candidate until I see he wants gun control. But that is a politician for you and I am not sure but what most of the American public also wants gun control these days. They have little understanding of freedom which in reality does not exist these days. Yet if things get really bad–which in this world as it is with its barbaric ways anything can happen and by Murphy’s Law will. There are too many nuts loose out there and some of them have their mitts on nukes, bacterial diseases, chemicals and so on.
But sometimes I wonder if the real rulers of the world–those that own the banks, the big Oil Industries and so on that work in billions and so on are looking at the science view that if this planet does not reduce population to 800 million, it is doomed. Anthrax, Aids and Ebola are patented biological warfare creations–and we have seen their experimental use in third world countries. It was well known the effects of fall out and that it would douse those heavily east of the Mercury site where over a hundred above ground nuclear bombs were exploded–even one hydrogen bomb. Did the government warn people–hell no and those fall outs have definitely greatly infected people downwind mostly with high cancer rates. Now if you are a down winder you can collect up to $75,000 for your disease. I can tell you an operation will cost twice that much and likely end up ten times that amount of medical bills. You just fill out a form and prove your were there during the years of testing. January 27, 1951 the first atom bomb was exploded 500 ft above ground –higher than the original tower of 300 ft they used for the New Mexico Trinity Bomb. For a decade more they exploded something like 125 above ground and about 900 underground tests. And did they give a damn about the down winders then by warning. Hell no–kind of sounds like the Forest Service People that run the programs concerning lives of the wild land fire fighters doesn’t it.
It took many lawsuits and years of battling the powers that be before any redress was given to the victims. So do not give up your freedoms thinking good old Uncle Sam will save you–there are just too many factions in government that work their own scams their own way–and who is in control. Don’t think your Senator or Representative can walk into that Nevada Test Site and say what are you fellows doing? If he does he will be detained and if one of us does we will more than likely be summarily shot or minimally relegated to a nut house or a prison cell for a very long stay.
And if some bastard Sharia Arab decides to blow up our cities and their cells and hoards try to take over be they Arab, Chinese, or any other nationality I will gladly take up arms against them But if I have no arms to defend with–well I am up shit creek —
It is quite apparent that RTS, Gary, Dr. Ted Putnam Gary, Powers, Norb, Woodsman, and like individuals of long time wild land fire fighting experience should be getting high dollar to inform and train those young wild land fire fighters. Their expertise would not only save the taxpayer boo coos of money but more importantly the lives of those young men so green at what they are doing. You could see from Donut’s talks that too many are wearing his boots–ignorant of how to keep themselves alive.
What you do not want is people that are redactors, and yes men that want to protect reputations and make heroes out of wrongdoers. It is well known by many of the truth of what killed the GMHS crew–and if the true story were presented from the start much more attention would be made toward screening bosses and the importance of following simple and common sense safety rules. Yet it takes men who have saved their crews, saved lives despite orders that would kill, and men that can instill the fortitude in the young ones to resist following orders such as dropping of in a dense box canyon that is an obvious trap.
I have to believe some on that GMHS crew beside Steed knew that it was against all good judgement and what is taught concerning box canyons with a raging wild fire below. I know one young man had ranch experience and certainly would have known. One lady said her husband that died there at Yarnell had told her it was an absolute wrong to drop off in box canyons such as he did at Yarnell. This is where Dr. Ted should be talking to these men and paid some thousands to do so because with his bat hides and wild land fire fighting experience of even having saved lives against orders that would have killed, young men would listen.
When you get up and give a line of shit that these men were out to save structures and bunk along with it instead of saying we can not understand how those men all listened to Marsh, et. al., dropped off in a box canyon choke full of manzanita and broke every safety rule beside–you have done one of the worst disservices to the safety of any future wild-land firefighter. You may have even caused by proxy the injury and deaths of some in the future.
I have to applaud DND. He steeped out boldly and his actions will likely be a key to unraveling the mystery of all that killed the GMHS. But more importantly his actions will benefit the safety of future wild land fire fighters. He is a hero in his own rite.
As a citizen and non-wild land fire fighter I have benefited in ways I never thought I would although if I could turn the clock back I would never have wanted to be a part of that tragedy. But who would? That is history we never want repeated and therefore demands some changes and some funds set aside in the thousands to pay for time and expertise from the proven winners–those that kept their men alive and detest lies and deceptions such as the Yarnell incident became. That simple actions though seemingly costly to taxpayer dollars actually would save millions and the horrible grief of seeing more young heroes killed by careless and needless stupidity.
PLEASE SKIP READING THIS IF YOU GET OFFENDED EASY- IT WAS JUST A STEP BY STEP DREAM I HAD—NO OMITTING FOR THE SAKE OF OMITTING- LEAVE THAT FOR THE YH FIRE INVESTIGATION TEAM
I had dreams about Gary and Sonny last night-
They were at one of Sonny’s infamous cowboy campfires and they were comparing life notes of why they prefer their dog over a lady and it was funny because Sonny said he would have to start off saying if he was late home his wife had a revolver waiting but his dog no matter “how late” loved on him and was excited to see him…then some side person at this camp fire with them (rugged mountain man) said he liked his dog over ladies because if he called his dog any other name than his dog’s name his dog licked him but a lady gave him a licking- Sonny chimed in and said I like all my dogs because if I have things scattered about they are okay with me and my area but not the ladies …and Gary chimed in and said my dog had no parents that visited…smirk made…then this rugged man said well I like my dog because if I raise my voice my dog gets it but not the ladies they go into this mood I cannot stand…Sonny said I like a woman you know that is much like my dog where they are ready 24/7 to go in whatever I want to do and then Gary chimed in and said my dog loved me and found me amusing hen I was pissed…the rugged man said hell Sonny and Gary I like my dog because I don’t get asked from my dog that if my dog died am I gonna have another one like ladies do…Then Sonny said well I like my dog because if they get pregnant you can sell the pups at a flea market but not a lady…it causes more problems…oh yeah Sonny the rugged man said when I eat some of your good old cowboy beans and I start to tooting my dogs love it but the ladies they run around spraying that “room spray” chemicals and Sonny said do not get me started on the chemicals…Shit, don’t get me started on the chemicals…let me grab me another chocolate soda (Guiness Stout) and Sonny said it his dog came over and handed him with his mouth a beer…and Sonny smiled and said that is another reason I love my dog…and the rugged man said to Gary well Gary when I scratch my nads my dog looks at me puzzled why I cannot lick them- then we get to why we like our ladies fellas…and Sonny closes and said yeah I like my dog because the more I see my dog he does not get offended that I smell like another dog but man the ladies…come on now…that’s when I have to protect the nads…then Gary could not allow Sonny to have the last word and he says to the fellas yeah but when my dog goes and runs off my dog never left with half my stuff and then some…then all three men toasted to that and watched the fire…
Vivid dream it was…felt real…kinda like the book I am reading Wind Stalker from Owen Irons- wish I owned the book- my chiropractor let me borrow it.
WARNING: Due to Presidential Executive Orders the National Security Agency (NSA) may have read this email without probable cause, warrant, or notice.
What was on my email–so I will post that last email here::Keep dreaming–ha ha. Pretty much the last of me now wouldn’t be any good with cookie cutter types. Slept lot of the day–maybe that long hike two days ago and a fair one yesterday shut me down. Today only a short hike maybe a mile. I am doing them cause I know it is the end if I don’t. My lungs are shot, you would think I smoked all my life. Humid days are harder than dry days–I think those retardant runs we made got me–maybe you but not as bad..
Yeah you are hated by Amanda and a few that love her. But I think in the long run people only pity that woman since most know the truth of what went down to kill those men. Firefighting is dangerous, if the fires don’t kill them the bosses will or the retardant and mad wives will get them. It is a good life to have a few beers if you are the poor bastard on the work line.
Yeah you stepped on a few toes–ouch! Too many liars got lighted up by you. So yes, but you got plenty friends supporting you. I have the shike of Geronimo hanging around–his bull shows up regular now.
It is very wrong in a free society that on a secure E-mail site I get this message: “WARNING: Due to Presidential Executive Orders the National Security Agency (NSA) may have read this email without probable cause, warrant, or notice.” It is obvious that this President wants every private email so there is complete knowledge of our thoughts and opinions and private lives. With this information the government has invaded our privacy–the one thing that changes control of the citizen and his rights to question government to that of the government who can now control the citizen. Certain the government at this time may not be the tyranny but when politics change in time there will be a government that will use and control people like so many slaves with their knowledge of your most intimate and private thoughts.
Since NSA needs no reason at all to invade your private emails, phone calls, etc. you know they already have uploaded every citizens private conversations to their super computers and cloud. That information is now in a bank they can and will use to maintain control, to manipulate public lives and opinions, and to farm out to industry so you can be a target not only for political gain but monetary profit. George Orwell was a bit behind on his date 1985 but not that far either. He knew the plan long before most and if you look at his connections you will know he was even a part of formulating it.
We will make America Great Again–Trumps ways and ideas will be advanced and had Hitler the same resources to the world’s private lives, he would have had no problem taking over the World and finishing off the remnant of Jews. This is sad to see we in America have gone this far allowing our so called “Security” to take away the most basic freedom we have–that of personal privacy.
But the idiots of the world will say, oh but this is a good thing. And you forget that the government was doing such things that were later revealed such as the mind experiments on over a million American Citizens by such things as doping them with LSD without their knowledge. Or did you forget that Ollie North and his gang of CIA were allowing dope into America and even part of it on the pretense that it was to benefit America’s security.
There are people in government that do not trust the public. They want every bit of information they can get their hands on to maintain control. Welcome to the New World Order and Prison Planet Earth. And who ever believed America would remain free (at least to some degree at the private level) and does it matter to anyone as long as Trump can make America Great Again. The masses are screwed now–they have literally lost their minds to the powers that be.
About lining up the Immigrants that are imprisoned from the recent influx from South America for mandatory DNA sampling to be added to the computer banks of the Federal Government.
When will this also be mandatory to American Citizens. My DNA samples are already in the computer bands since I paid for DNA tracing to look at my ancestry. However, if your were a Jew or any other race that suddenly a tyrannical government wanted to extinguish, then all they need do is look at the data base and pull you out for extermination.
Hitler returns in spirit. One of the most devious things could do is sanction mass DNA sampling of those Immigrants. This is one of the most insidious and dangerous actions taken by Trump and his cronies. There may well be a few criminals among the population but it is enough to check criminal records of immigrants then perhaps if found to be felons, take the DNA samples of those few.
People do not realize the dangers lurking against a free society that is already controlled beyond what we saw and still see in communist and fascist governments. Welcome to planet earth, the soon to be globally controlled world where a few direct the lives of the masses according to their whims. America the free, and make America Great Again my ass. Don’t bullshit us Trump–a few of us are wise to the plan.
Despots take any measures to maintain control–legal or illegal . When you see no concern or empathy for individuals or the environment but great concern of putting dollar values on lives then you should take notice. Of course in a way presidential offices have some influence but they are only in office at the mercy of industrial complexes and people that have world influence. When a Rockefeller speaks or any of the industrialists make directives the president listens with a keen ear. After all it is their billions that put these people in office. In ways Trump is not the braggadocio monster he could be because he will be limited in the ways the masses will not see–and of only two choices–either is at the mercy of those who really have the sledge hammer above their head. Still it is fun to see the ballyhoo sort of like watching a foot ball game–screaming for your team yet you really have no power of the outcome. And for all the drama it ends up that the best team is usually the one best financed–the financiers are the actual winners in the final analysis.
The American experiment of the free individual has eroded. It had been a republican experiment.
The concerns these days are pollution and environmental concerning masses and health. Those that have the gold will make the mold. The next 50 years will be the most interesting yet horrifying years to endure unless changes are made. That is highly doubtful.
When we looked at such benign things as FOIA records involving the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew we saw pages of records concerning the tragedy blacked out with the magic markers. We talked to people whose jobs were threatened if they talked. There were official mum orders. We saw Donut, the only survivor of that crew speak with a forked tongue and withhold information he knew despite the grief of loved ones needing resolution and truth. We saw individuals flat out lying to maintain reputations.
How could this be? Joy and I were on that two track and knew the situation–her photos were not needed said the firemen in Prescott–they already knew and had their take on what happened. Their story was already determined by only a few days after the deaths happened–there would be no blame, no fault to anyone-this would be just another wild land fire fighting accident and certainly no mention of the terrible mismanagement of that wild fire that nearly killed a lot of residents of Yarnell as well. It would be a God thing where the good Lord needed those individuals somewhere else, no way would there be the reasons those men were killed due to negligent actions told to the public.
And for Joy and Sonny who did hike there they would be challenged, labeled as kooks and clowns. It is easier to attack the individuals than deal with the facts. But what of all these retired wild land fire fighters who knew safety measures were flaunted and could see that even Donut did not have a clue about safe wild land fire fighting techniques. Why haven’t they been labeled as clowns and kooks? Why have such men as Dr. Ted Putnam been avoided despite his expertise as a smoke jumper of many years and PhD in Psychology ? Are Gary Olson, RTS, Hondo, Woodsman, Norb, Powers, DNA, WTKTT, fire scientists Morrison and Wooten, and others that say there has been an official false presentation to the public of what happened to kill those 19 wild land fire fighters—are these men also kooks and clowns? On the contrary they are heroes who for the most part were in charge of 20men crews or more and upon retirement of 20 years are more left their crews alive and intact.
Wake up America–your tax dollars deserve the truth and truth is the only thing that will change practices allowed that cause deaths to young hero deaths (some as young as 21 on that crew).
Whew, It did rain cats and dogs last night–well dogs at least–I found three huskies, a bulldog and a white German Shepard in my yard this morning –a welcome sight with that many friends to enjoy the day. So I will be inside to take a little more time.
Some had said Joy and Sonny were out to get their 15 minutes of fame in the media. That is funny since we were the ones sought out by the media as well as wild land fire fighters who wanted to hike the route the GMHS took and to see the death site and pay their respects. We had watched them from the fire line and knew exactly how they had hiked, knew most of their actions and even their physical condition as we accessed it as we passed them on the narrow trail they were taking to the fire edge as well as the hours we watched them and the fire advance from the two track near their location. No one could enjoy talking about a tragedy that killed 19 young men–However it became a necessity to talk about what we had seen and what Joy had photographed in over 1500 photos that day.
Channel 5 is coming over to film something about the ordeal of my dog Charlie shooting me in the back with a 12 guage that shattered my clavicle, pierced the right lung, cracked 3 ribs and scattered lead shot about my chest like a star system when seen of X-Ray.
They sought me out and I have no qualms in the truth of what happened nor am I seeking fame as a dummy that allowed his dog to learn how to shoot me–this was however not a planned murder on the part of Charlie. I did die but either Jesus or the expertise of likely a dozen doctors at the only Trauma unit in El Paso, Texas (University Trauma Hospital) were able to bring me back to life. Unlike Lazarus I lay dead only 10 minutes of so and not the three days, but it was my second resurrection from the dead–that first one being the death outside the cardiologist office of the Prescott VA hospital.
For those that worry about dying, the first one was easy except for the excruciating heart pain getting there. And I was not happy waking up since death not a state of anything–no pain, no consciousness of anything. I did not see Jesus, lights or any of the things others report on that one. On the second one I had lost 6 units of blood and plasma–you are dead at 4 or 5–but after a call to my son also a RN of long time experience in truama cases, with his permission I was given blood transfusion and the Lazarus syndrome of life came back.
However on the second death I was in the copter when the second death began to appear. I am hard to kill since I had laid through this on that desert floor for over 30 minutes with a gaping hole in my back bleading profusely from the 12 guage hole in my back, one that would take over three months to close and require my living 24-7 attached to a wound vac.
Unlike the first death, I started going down a tunnel and I did not want to go. There were musical sounds and a neon rainbow colored polygon with rounded edges the shape of that strange ford pickup window. I felt like I was traveling at the speed of light. But then I suppose I went bland and I was not conscious of how long–My son said I was out for three days and it cost him $140 in coffee and donuts to people attending me–He was overseeing and had taken off from his job to see if I might make it.
I have and am back and believe me I do not worry about something as petty as trying to get famous because my dog shot me. If it will add to the entertainment of people, maybe make they more cautious of letting their dog learn how to shoot or keeping the gun away from their availability and add to the enjoyment of their lives then I will gladly go for it and no fees expected just as we did on the Yarnell tragedy.,
Life is too short to deal in anything but truth–Cheers, may our journeys be happy.
Blood level 15 mcg/dL Lead. That is three times maximum the allowable level of <5 mcg/dL. Charlie may kill me yet from lead poisoning. The doctor said it however is not enough to cause him to recommend chelation or have too much concern. He says it is likely other causes for my complaints.
Good thing I am not a developing child–that amount of lead in the blood would lead to my being a idiot–something a few have dubbed me anyway. Oddly I must have never gotten lead poison as a child since working on my masters in Clinical Psychology I could easly muster A's and B's. I did IQ once at 120 which is some above retardant but my son Ted IQ was above 140 at mensa level. He was doing straight A work in Chemical Engineering when he passed. None of my kids are idiots and true to my personality they generally avoid publicity. My daughter has been a manger in finance matters and has done so well that even Trump would label her as a winner. He only labels those in the multi million dollar class as winners–
I am ordering a TeePee–Plains Indian Style–whew from Underground Uranium and hard rock tramp miner back to the earth again. We do what we enjoyed most–I think as a youngster in those Burro Mountains living in a tent but with little subsistence and having to live off the wild lands has a hold on me. The old way of the Indian and my years of pioneering with Joy are fond memories of being close to nature. I have a great respect for wild life and animals.
The one ceremony I attended by invitation was with a Laguna Indian Friend named Stanley on off times at the SOHIO Uranium Mines made me understand how much the Indian respects nature and the environment. There were thanks given to the Deer who provided the meat that he would give life to us through his life sacrifice. That was something I had never done when I had killed a deer for its venison. We can learn from those most humble and appreciative of life and the planet.
correction >5 mcg lead blood level allowable–I got that less than sign reversed. Just do not get lead in your blood–very poison and does give problems to health
For those who do want to know the test is used to measure water content of lead mainly–few people need it. In fact the doctor at the VA, a Hematologist had to look up lead poisoning symptoms and remedies–it is just a very rare situation that doctors deal with.
> = greater than < = less than, but most know that so why am I explaining?
I had read this and remembered how labored Amanda was to keep people away from the death site even to the point of attempting to purchase the property so private access could be made according to her ideas.
Now it is a public access with even a parking lot that cost near a million to build and a trail that many young volunteers built to get to the site. However already they have air lifted one out for the difficult hike of climbing the West side of the Weavers from that parking lot.
It would have been cheaper to have spent a million to buy a private property access into the place–In fact from the east side it is a short maybe half mile hike past the helms ranch and a gravel road right to the fence–then the elderly and the handicapped could go right there and pay their respects rather than risk heart attack, heat stroke, rattlesnakes, fall injuries and so forth. Leave the long hard trail to the young and the hardy–but it makes me think people think that plan these things –are they educated? God keep you and me from that University.
Correction–Learned today from Mark and this filming it was two hours before they could contact Mark to get permission for blood transfusions–they must have slipped something in in the meantime–I mean you can’t lie bone dry of blood for two hours or maybe you can with the new medical technology. Shit they can screw with DNA and clone you and even put a dog’s head on a Buffalo. Science has advanced to such a high degree–yet in a hundred years they still can not cure cancer. That one has them stymied.
About redactions and the quest to understand them. Redactions that I refer to are the pages and pages of actions at Yarnell that were blacked out concerning pertinent facts concerning the death of the 19.
Of course wild land fire fighting actions have nothing to do with national security but individual security and safety is highly dependent upon facts. Contrary to blacking out information about what killed the 19 or any wild land fire fighter, it should be mandatory to give all facts, presentations, testimony and so forth so that men of integrity can evaluate precisely why the deaths occurred. But we saw the pages of black outs, mum orders and threats, misinformation and blatant lies and even removal and editing of film to what one would have to believe was the ultimate in making a sow’s ear into a silk purse.
Well I was watching a documentary on UFO’s. A topic if you happened to have seen one and talk about it will give you the kook label in a hurry. I have seen them, Joy has actual photos of them shooting green lasers out and another with the mother ship surrounded by small craft. So give me the kook label–this will help David and the Amanda bunch that already have their opinions made up.
However I do believe they are government experiments–the photos were near Las Vegas and of course the famous Area 51 where one engineer said he saw flying saucers being put together. Hitler was doing them–we did get the plans for their anti-gravity machines–but of course if the government had such things then it would be even more top secret than the F-15 was for more than ten years.
So Stanley Friedman–nuclear physicist and aerospace scientist believes in these things as do many people of PhD status including a number of medical doctors. Even President Jimmy Carter had filed a report when he and ten others had seen a UFO–something of public record and not to many thought him to be a nut. But Stanley had used the FOIA to get reports on certain UFO reports and in the documentary holds them up with several complete pages blacked out.
I thought what the hell is so secret about UFO sightings that the government has to black out pages–and then I thought of all those FOIA’s about the Yarnell fire that Joy had ordered and so much was blacked out. Obviously it is a way to keep the public from knowing the facts and even in such non-security issues as UFO sightings and Wild Land Fires. Shit and we put up with it but how can you challenge the government–That is the mouse trying to screw the elephant. it ain’t gonna happen.
So we wind up relying on testimony and truth found through what we can glean and the testimony of people willing to tell what they did witness. I would exclude Donut on that since we know he never gave dependable information–but there are many men of integrity that speak about it, and what we know at this point is that the real and true story is still some incomplete.
It would have been easier on the fire gods had they told the truth from the beginning–and even the survivor had that duty. But seems that at least here on IM people are not willing to end it until it is all revealed. And that is the right thing to do.
Oh, I should add there is one photo of a dragon we could not see as Joy took a photo of the moon, yet appeared on the film. I can only say it must have appeared and disappeared so quickly that only the shutter speed could catch it because it was quite huge. I can’t explain that one–it is on the film–but it was there. Maybe Joy will someday put those photos on her blog.
Before I retire for the night, a better explanation for the deaths of the men (and the insanity of Marsh ordering them into a box canyon) that Willis gave that God had other plans for these men would be an alien abduction thing But on second thought stupidity overrides that even.
Joy did say there was a huge boulder in a pre-fire photo that in an after fire photo was missing. Remember she had taken about 1500 photos that day before the fire on that mountain. Where did that boulder go–well we do have copters that can remove big boulders or maybe it rolled down the mountain.
there is a video of that boulder on highway 89 on a boulder rock trailer Sonny so there is documentation where it vanished to-
I thought your weren’t paying attention Joy. Glad that mystery was solved and you posted–I was beginning to think those Yarnellites that belive there are aliens encapsulated inside those granite boulders waiting to be releases might have substance. Can you imagine an alien getting heated inside one of those boulders and bursting out–instead he finds himself being transported to someone’s front Yard–could it be traced to see if it is a politician’s delight?
Sonny said_ I thought what the hell is so secret about UFO sightings that the government has to black out pages–and then I thought of all those FOIA’s about the Yarnell fire that Joy had ordered and so much was blacked out.
My reply- Yes much was blacked out but since I was there and these people who gave me the documents do not “get that” I knew the blacked out areas so all it did was show the lack of transparency and I am really solid and confident and maybe those spur road folks sooner than later gain that same level of strength and tell their accounts … the sad part there is just too many “ok” at sleeping at night … yet soooooo looking forward to reading the MacLean Book to-be especially with Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair – really am… It will tell me who got “real” and who did not … I have pondered for awhile if I should place Alan’s pic on my page from that time because man for empathy reasons I have not due to his face says alot …so yeah looking forward to their book – when is it due out? I look forward to his real account or will he too play the role as so many others are doing-
Who was that person anyways who got kicked by a firefighter boot? Just curious … would he know? or is that just possibly you “JC” ??? I mean how many days and years have to go by???
Well…in addition to my best friend and Jeeping buddy who I lost some time back and you all know by her fierce reputation, (as a reminder, she jumped out of the back of our Jeep, off our sleeping platform and into the pitch black night to engage two raccoons who had broken the perimeter that existed only in her mind. It could have been two velociraptors, Una didn’t care. She was one bloody mess by the time I managed to break up that death match. She had the heart of a Lioness, but the teeth and jaws of a Yorkie mix) dear X wife had a chocolate Lab I found for her in Florida for us to adopt about 5 years ago because I always wanted a chocolate Lab and her second Golden Retriever had died. It’s been almost exactly one year (in less than one week) since the last time I saw Barkley and my dear X wife. I sure do miss that dog!
And FYI, Una was a rescue dog. So don’t hate me too much for the three thousand dollar Lab who had to be flown in from Florida. I do have a social conscience that I didn’t even know I had until I got old and started caring about other people.
And Joy did get her Special Edition Challenge Coins for her and her posse designed by yours truly. She also received lots of matching patches (there are three different ones) so if you see her, ask her for one of each.
Downhill Direct had the same offer, but he never sent me his address, I don’t think he trusts me? Maybe it’s because RTS accused me of being a student of Machiavelli several years ago on this thread.
That’s why I was so happy when he also accused me of being a student of Sun Tzu, (The Art of War).
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/202800-appear-weak-when-you-are-strong-and-strong-when-you.
That was a big step in the right direction as far as I was concerned.
I have always been so misunderstood. Well…maybe not always? Sometimes I was exactly what people thought I was. Say…have you ever heard the fable about the scorpion and the frog?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog
😎
Oh and one more thing. I didn’t pick a Yokie mix to be my dog. I didn’t even want a dog. Una picked me and she was persistent.
Agree on the Lab–could not be a finer dog faithful to their master. I miss Diamond –amazing dogs and if someone decides to own a dog, Labs won’t disappoint
Reviewed some of the Staff rides Joy posted about on her Blog. A real joke. All at least the Yarnell ride does, if it is any example of staff rides, is to further the lie about what really happened at Yarnell. You know the poor little or maybe big Ranger that attends people at the parking lot to make the hike up the way we escaped the fire does the same. She/he likely does not know a different story and parrots what she/he is told happened. But those Staff Ride Stiffs are men who do know.
Ain’t it sad people can’t be like Gary and just give us the cold bare facts and let us deal with them. That pussy footing around only keeps people sick. We need the facts so we can work though the horror of how those young heroes were outright victims of negligent homicide.
As bold as wild land fire fighters are I wonder why so many are timid at telling the truth. Their should be yelling from the truth from the top of their lungs on this one–19 brothers killed needlessly in the worse possible tragedy and for the worse possible negligence in the history of wild land fire fighting death incidences.
Living a lie is a sickness that can only be cured by telling the truth.
Clarification;
1. I agree Sonny. I don’t think a Lab will ever disappoint. But on the other hand, (I used to work with a guy for years who only had one hand and whenever I used that time honored catch phrase around him, he would always interrupt me and say, “But I don’t have another hand.,’ Anyway: he broke me of suckin’ eggs when it came to using that automatic phrase whenever he was around.) Una never disappointed me either. Except maybe whenever I had to get us out of trouble because she wrote a lot of checks with her attitude that her teeth and jaws couldn’t cash. So…it’s probably safe to say, “Unlike most people, most dogs don’t disappoint” and I finally understand another common catch phrase I used to say before I became the people person and humanitarian I have evolved into today. “Fuck you…if you want a friend, buy a dog. But I’m going to do my job even if it is over your dead body….so choose wisely asshole.”
2. Joy didn’t tell me that she has a “posse” or who is in it, but I did tell her who I thought was in it so these are the ones who have a very rare unique and special Challenge Coin coming from Joy in no particular order. Her posse started a tradition to meet at the deployment site once a year a try to figure out how the fuck an entire hotshot crew was burned to death even with their command structure intact and functioning as it was designed to operate. Which was a horrific event that none of us thought was even possible right up to the minute it happened and became our previously unimaginable reality.
2a. So here are the names I came with; Sonny, RTS, Ted, Norb and JD. I also think Bob P. should have one even if he was on an R-5 hotshot crew, but he has to email me his address in Bumfuck Idaho. It’s Santa his fault, not everyone can be on an R-3 hotshot crew. The fire gods in their wisdom made R-3 hotshot crews and then they made the rest. Even if they had to start with hotshot crews in on the Angeles and Cleveland National Forests in the Cradle of Hotshot Civilization…SoCal in 1947-48. They must have wanted to get most of their mistakes out of the way right off the bat (another time honored phrase, that started…why? Off what bat? WTF…Over?) You know…my attitude about other hotshot crews isn’t my fault. I have told you several times how the fire gods created hotshots in their image…as assholes who play a zero sum game. What one hotshot crew gains…another one has to lose. That is why there never was a hotshot brotherhood. Just bunch of crews all trying to advance their position in the food chain at the expense of every other crew. Like I have also said, even the Flagstaff, Mormon Lake and Blue Ridge Hotshots weren’t our Brothers-in-Arms, Buck was only happy when we were trying to outdo all of the other crews to earn his love and affection. I now think that was one fucked up culture and ultimately…unhealthy. But…you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, so next to the Happy Jack Hotshots of Legend and the Santa Fe Hotshots of today, all other hotshot crews, you know…suck. Although all R-3 hotshot crews suck less than the others do and R-5 hotshot crews suck the most. Hey, I didn’t make this stuff up…it’s what I was taught.
3. I would actually like to give everyone who has supported this blog either by direct participation or by faithfully reading it a Challenge Coin because this…is the Official Court Of Record for the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster. But…that just isn’t possible because only 50 Special Edition Challenge Coins were ever made and none will ever be made again. 50 was the minimum order and I wanted to see how l liked then before I ordered anymore and that never happened. Which by the way, put the per unit cost if those coins very high since the dies and set up fees could only be spread out between 50. I should have ordered one million and then each coin would have been relatively inexpensive. Too late now.
4. If you don’t know the history of Challenge Coins, it’s worth reading about. They say Special Forces (Green Beret) coins are numbered and whoever has the lowest number at a chance meeting…has to buy the drinks. I do know numbering coins sequentially would really be expensive.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin
Here is my distribution list of my Special Edition WLF Challenge Coins to date;
1. 19 GMIHC families
2. Sad Sack
3. Ed Hollenshead
4. Darrell Willis
5. Two former squad bosses that I still have regular contact with
6. My dear X wife
7. My Very Special Lady Friend
8. And now Joy has seven of them
9. I am keeping one with Downhill Direct’s name on it just in case he changes his mind
10. And a few to other current and former WLF friends
11. And one of my very few remaining coins has Bob P’s name on it.
12. I would really like to send one to WTKTT, but he would have to violate his Prime Directive (other than to lay the ground work for the eventual domination of our world and to enslave a deeply flawed species who is doing everything they can to make themselves extinct in record time, just as soon as he learns how to self replicate) and reveal his true identity other than his chosen nom de guerre of, Wants To Know The Truth, or the one I chose for him…HAL 9000.
5. When I started my latest sabbatical, I said I had done all I could for “the memory of the crew” and it was up to others now. I was specifically referring to those who know what else happened on what is now the worst day in hotshot history…by a factor of X. And that is because I don’t think we know everything even after more than 6 years. I am still technically on sabbatical trying to get my lung function under better control to make my Very Special Lady Friend happier, get some Jeepin’ done, all while I engage my greatest adversary in life. A blank Word page with a blinking cursor that mocks me as I try work on…all together now, the Greatest Books about WLF in history, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” and “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters.” Good thing I am focused like a laser ligh…Oh look, there goes another white car! But…I just couldn’t resist commenting on Joy’s dream…and dogs, specifically my dog. Because Una will always be my dog. “There is a meadow on the other side of the mountain, I will meet her there.” as quoted by G. Olson, C. 2019. Does anybody else think Joy had a very weird dream? Joy is the only person I know who dreams in complete sentences and can quote them. My dreams are usually just various kaleidoscopic views of darkness that make less sense than, “A Clockwork Orange.” Just kidding…I don’t want anyone to think I need ANOTHER Fitness For Duty Psychiatric Examination. I aced two of them during my 18 years as a Special Agent. The teams of psychiatrists and psychologists who examined me (just try taking one of those several thousand question tests that ask the same tricky questions over and over again in different ways so you can’t remember how you lied and as a result, you are forced to admit the truth…twice) concluded I was a normal and rational person who was simply trying to function in an ABNORMAL and IRRATIONAL environment…working for the BLM in Law Enforcement. Say…Am I only the only one who thinks no one else besides Americans should be allowed to make movies…especially the British?
6. Okay, I’m going back on sabbatical starting right…now! 😎
Oh…and one more thing. I am being dead serious when I say that when I was a GS-0462-Forestry Technician, I always colored inside the lines. The system rewards the bold who color in bright colors right up to the very edges of the lines, but it punishes those who scribble outside the lines.
And yes…I also always said that. “I bleed green.” just like Bob P. still says today. I also carried water for the fire gods.
But…when the U.S. Forest Service Family tried to abort me and then I went to work for a Continuing Criminal Enterprise, (BLM top managers and NOT the rank and file) they taught me how to make managers get a thousand-yard-stare whenever they fucked with me.
But….that is all water under the bridge that we can laugh about now. Hahaha!
Clarification.
When I use the phrase, “The System”, I am specifically referring to U.S. Forest Service FIRE back in my day. I don’t know how it is today, or how other agencies function.
And as I asking keep writing, my experience on the line was actually very narrow and specific to theses three areas.
1. Hotshot crew member.
2. Hotshot squad boss.
3. Hotshot crew boss.
I can’t speak for anyone else. And in fact, I can only tell you how it was from 1975 through 1984 in the USFS, Region 3, on the Coconino and Santa Fe National Forests.
I spent my entire very short career time on the Prescott trying to figure out who was on first.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg
Although I did learn about hotshot crews that season the same way most people learn about hotshots. And that was when a fire was looking like it might go-to-hell-in-a-hand-basket somewhere.
A group of us Walnut Creek techs were standing around talking about it and one of them said in awe, “Maybe they will have to send the Prescott Hotshots?” And the other techs solemnly nodded in agreement.
So of course I asked, “What is a Prescott Hotshot?” And then the group took great pleasure in enlightening me.
And all I could think of was, “Why the fuck would anyone want to be a hotshot?” as I stood there in my nice clean U.S. Forest Service uniform that came with a badge?
Gary-Your experiences are so valuable to the understanding of wild land fire fighting and the “system” that as it is presented could only improve. It appears to be on rock bottom at the present with so much lies, redactions, mum orders and obvious skirting any truths that might make changes.
The Fire Gods forget that it is public tax dollars supporting their work-you are public servants–A servant must be true to his master and the public has not seen that in too many of these needless deaths of the young heroes you command.
Okay…okay, here’s one more True Story because it’s True Story Time.
As I have written, my first job with the U.S. Forest Service was on the now defunct Walnut Creek Ranger Station. The actual Ranger Station (administrative headquarters) was actually located in Prescott, but they had two work centers where most of the 462’s worked out of and even lived during their work week in shabby old rejected FEMA trailers at the Camp Wood Work Center.
The other work center was at the very old Walnut Creek Station. Both had fire caches in old barns and a collection of outer buildings, barns and corrals for both riding and pack horses. The USFS back in my day loved horses that had been a primary means of transportation since Gifford Pinchot founded the Forest Service in 1905. I was lucky enough to work for them before ATV or Side by Sides were invented and to fight fire on the Gifford Pinchot…several times.
There were even horse corrals and stables next to the Santa Fe Hotshot Headquarters in the middle of Santa Fe. I have a great photo of my hijita (loving daughter) feeding the horses with my mother who was visiting when she was about two years old. I was buddies with the District Range Con (we were deer hunting buddies etc.) and I often fed them on the weekends when he was out of town. Pack horses were actually used to supply the lookout tower during the fire season on on the Walnut Creek District and damn…I can’t remember the name of the lookout tower. I will have to get back to you on that one. I want to say Hutch Mountain but that was one of our towers on the Long Valley District on the Mighty Coke.
The Walnut Creek Station had a bunch of old buildings (cabins) that were all stained U.S. Forest Service old building reddish dark brown that looked like they should be U.S. Forest Service buildings instead of rejected FEMA trailers that included an office, a training center (a big cabin that had a big room) which all had old rock fireplaces. I didn’t know at the time just how special those buildings were because they are all gone now and have been for decades. Bulldozed, burned down or demolished by a bunch of crazed 462’s? Probably because they cost too much to maintain and somebody deemed them no longer needed to accomplish the mission of the new U.S Forest Service.
I lived and worked out out of one of the rejected and surplus FEMA trailer at Camp Wood that doubled as a tech bunkhouse because most of my patrol area was to the west and north of there towards the Seligman. Seligman is a classic Arizona shit hole Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe railroad town the Mother Road went through the middle of but I-40 bypassed with nothing more important in the entire town than the Black Cat Bar. Another tech and I went with Bob Short to Seligman one night because that was just how boring it was at Camp Wood.
And Bob drank the case of beer he had bought at the Black Cat all of the way back to Camp Wood until he finally ran off the road and hit a big tree with his pickup truck while chucking the empties out of his open window in classic Forestry Technician style. I think that is last guy in the photo I put on my now defunct website wearing the cowboy hat. Good thing the road at that point was really in bad shape, so he wasn’t going very fast because of course none of us were wearing seat belts much less shoulder harnesses and his busted up POS truck was still drivable by…Bob Short of course.
http://ourfiregods.com/CampWood.html
Bingo…I have now remembered everybody’s name in that photo even though I can’t remember what I did yesterday.
Forgive…I digress. So…back to the true story. On my first day of work I showed up at the District Ranger Office in Prescott in my brand new U.S. Forest Service uniform I had already ordered, and they gave me my badge, the keys to a four wheel drive truck, instructions on how to find Camp Wood and a pack set radio to communicate with who; I was unsure of since I was afraid to touch the damn thing because I didn’t have the slightest idea how to operate it.
Side True Story…I used to go to movies in downtown Santa Fe carrying a pack set radio when I was on call from the dispatch office and I was usually on call. If you have ever seen an old pack set radio…you would know just how ridiculous that must have looked, but it was the old days and nobody seemed to notice or care. They probably thought I was a Bag Pipe Blowin’ Round Hat and so they automatically loved and respected me.
Anyway…on the way out to Camp Wood the pack set got jostled somehow and started making one the most most awful sounds I had ever heard…really loudly. I was still afraid to touch it and so I listened to that noise all of the way to Camp Wood (about a two hour drive). All I had to do was to adjust the squelch knob…which sounds pretty easy unless you don’t know what squelch is, that there is a squelch nob, or that you can adjust it and you are afraid to even touch the pack set because you don’t want to be accused of breaking it and then have to pay for it. I was a very slow beginner as a Forestry Tech.
I also clearly remember attending my fire training in that big cabin training room with the rock fireplace that was probably built by the CCC’s and being told that in order to stop the fire, I would be required to construct a fire line down to mineral soil that was at least one and a half times wider than the tallest fuel that it was burning.
I just sat there thinking about the mature Ponderosa Pines I was surrounded by and I was sure glad I was a Fire Prevention Technician and only technically a firefighter of last resort. Because damn….that was going to have to be one wide fire line I didn’t want to have to cut. I don’t know how many months if ever…it took me that season to figure out the instructors weren’t referring to the trees, but to the ground fuel underneath the trees. Like I said…I was a pretty slow beginner as a Forestry Technician.
Oh…and I finally figured out what that rack is of what I thought were various flavored single cup coffee mixes that are always in the frame behind President Trump whenever he is being interviewed sitting at the Resolute desk. They are Challenge Coins.
And when we finally meet Sonny and Joy, I have every expectation you both will slap down your Challenge Coins on the bar and whichever one of us doesn’t have theirs in their pocket for immediate display and to tap on the bar…they have to buy until we are drunk enough to drive off the road and hit a big tree…in slow motion classic Forestry Tech style where nobody gets hurt.
It is sometimes wise to examine the Psychiatrist or Psychologist. Many of them took up the role because they were sickos themselves. Suicide is excessive among them. Some of them are actually good people–and you can pick them out intuitively. But most want to drug you up–well maybe the brain is low on lithium but generally it is stressors and finding the root is the way for a permanent cure. A little dope can relieve–even pot–but once the smoke clears from the mind the problem likely will return unless they use the old method of stirring the brain with needles inserted thought the eye sockets or else by burning the brain with 600V jolts until the zombie state appears. No shit little beaver–this is modern science, but chemicals are the preferred brain fixer these days.
Sometimes the bartender makes a better psychologist if he/she will listen–it is a hell of a lot cheaper unless you get a DWI. Well Brandon Donut is keen on chemistry about like he was on fire fighting–doping and drinking. Maybe a little psychiatry can get him on legal dope. His group therapy is always a good thing–he might even start telling the truth there. A clean conscience can help the psyche oodles.
Don’t you just love the merry go round of life? As Gary says, six year and we still don’t have all the facts about the worst fire fighting negligent homicide case ever. Nothing like keeping the Americans in suspense–and what keeps us coming here at least to a large degree.
That and the wise sayings of WTKTT, Gary, Ted, Joy, RTS, Woodsman, JD, Norb, DND, Powers, and forgive me for my short but aged memory cell for not listing them all–well Bill and those good Canadians that exhale the fresher air. Maybe we think Donut would post here or even Amanda–I did not mean to forget Holly=she has had some good input-output as well. It takes some fortitude to post here since BS will be spotted quickly.
Well I had forgotten to mention, Dr. Ted Putnam has a good solution and being the pro he is you can count on his advice. He would suggest meditation–a good stilling of the mind and elimination of thought intrusion so the subconscious can work on the problems which is very effective.
I would suggest if you are Catholic, hit the confessional stand–unload those sins, but you might have a Priest that needs to confess himself. I don’t like confessing to the devil but who knows any type confession might be good. The devil likely would not want to hear you confessing your sins especially if you intend to keep a clean slate after. You might want to add meditation as well. Forget positive thinking–thinking is the problem–you need calmness of mind and truth–well the know thyself type truth.
Other than that try Joy’s hiking therapy. It is called putting one foot in front of the other for some distance. That adds strength, deep breathing and healthier attitudes–some have even lost many pounds of excess fat–a much better way of loosing fat than a divorce.
To live alone and not be lonely is hard–you would need a good inventory of yourself enough that you can love life and are fine with live and let live. It is best to have a mate since married people live longer–and if not a mate then a pet and having both is even better. But of course get a mate and pet that are compatible–some of us that is about one in a million.
None of us get out of this world alive but we ought to make the best of what we are allowed. Love life and do some good things –tell the truth since it will reward with good karma.
I did the Joy thing today–full 10 miles the weather was cool and Maya (Whitey) my white coyote was along to encourage me. She chased at least three rabbits and has yet to catch one. She wasn’t staggering like me when we got back to camp but she headed right to my cow tank and dove right in.
Geronimo the bull was inside my fence cropping the grass. I don’t know if he opened the gate and made his way in but I walked him out–he rubbed against a big yucca tree and it went down–that fellow is strong–broke it off right at the root. I wouldn’t mind him but he also rubbed against one of my small Cherry tries and it went down too broken off about two foot above ground but maybe a tiny sprout will recover it –yet it was about 10 ft high. Maybe he is part George Washington –Cherry tree killer.
I have the Brits coming with their film for TV over there. I am going to try to direct their attention to Yarnell and the 19. We will see there are many lives there and all much more important than my own story. I have always considered myself only a bystander and in so many ways if I could turn it back would not ever have gotten involved and never taken the trip. On the other hand I can say well had I not then who knows what would have happened with Joy–she was determined to go whether I went or not. Those days I hated getting up at 3 in the morning, now sometimes I am up even after that 10 mile hike.
Well I do have chest pains from it on the left side==but that is a given after those heart stints and plenty of lead shot–an ounce scattered about in my chest cavity. Maybe between the stainless steel heart stints and the lead I am getting a chemical reaction like a battery. My body tests acid so I take baking soda for acid –kills that burning quick but you have a battery either way.
See they wanted me to do at least 3 weeks therapy in a hospital after I got myself out. Well they move your arm around and have you blowing through a plastic thing lifting a plastic bobber. But hiking is deep breathing and physical movement of the arms.
And if you breathed in enough retardant as Joy and I did on those hikes then add a shot up lung and shattered clavicle and cracked ribs then therapy does not help–you are pretty much wrecked. Just consider another day a plus. But I am a lucky one since so many of those elderly there are either on their death bed or dead. I don’t know if dying fast in a fire is easier than the slow deaths by cancer and heart attack, etc. Being dead once you are there is not so bad–I can speak to that with authority–and I do have the bat hide in Psychology then religion for more–so if that really means anything. And no I have not had a lobotomy such as I described where sharp probes are incerted in the eye sockets and used to stir the frontal lobe of the brain. Dr. Putnam can tell you more–and it would require a Psychiatrist to do that or prescribe dope as well.
There were and likely still are a number of Psychologists and Psychiatrists working for the CIA–and they did do some extreme experiments on humans–some that in my mind were right along with the Dr. Mengela Nazi experiments. But then somehow there is always the excuse that what they did was for the protection and benefit of America–keep it great or make it great again–whichever slogan suits the situation best..
I should be more trusting of Doctors–they have saved my life more than once, even twice and revived from the dead as well –those were good ones. But it is wise to look into a doctors work history–a few have a record of dead patients above the norm–sort of like how too many died in Yarnell after the retardant dumps. Not all are at their best and Joy can testify to some bad situations there. But I think likely the luck of the draw is hopefully above 80%.
Medicine like the retardant business is into the dollar market big. Even with 20 per cent plans people are finding themselves so deep in debt they are loosing their homes. And for some reason there has been almost a 100 years at Cancer Drives and cancer only increases in the population. Cures are pretty deadly as well with many doctors saying they would not do the kemo themselves. But who knows what you would do if you were on your death bed and wanted a little more time?
Would I go back to mining if I were capable? Likely but not Uranium and with hearing protection instead of the old days when it wasn’t part of the game. Would I log again–that too I would do. Would I cow boy–only if I had my own cattle and spread. But probably not since I never liked killing animals and still do not though I do kill rabbits occasionally for the dogs. I gave up meat eating to almost totally but I am not against it. Would I take on a wildland fire fighting job–I would if I were younger yet I would be damn sure of my boss and would be one to walk away from a killer situation which means I would have a short history in that line of work.
Be safe, follow your love of life and what you do that you may live long and happy.
Sonny,
I have been in Santa Fe-
I met some old Grants NM miners yesterday –
when I am near an able place I will email you a man who may know you-
They are way old timers and they knew about Gary’s father and said many of men died in that mine noone even knows about – “tramp miners”
you are lucky to be alive, Sonny the way they report the treatment you all saw-
they said it was a daily war no woman could ever get-
I was at a wealthy type ranch yesterday – a kind of place only seen in movies – and I walked the area and if I ever participate in this firefighting role – I need to bring more tools along and not a pulaski or fire shelter.
Anyways- still in recovery stage and if my site emailed me I am not able to get on there anytime soon to get to it.
Just a pop in to let you know Sonny I am still breathing
I think it is breathing
it is for sure one foot in front of the other
I tried posting under my name
let me try your id input but mine just goes into moderation so this is Joy but may show under Charlie-
give it a try
one more attempt
It kinda sounded like RTS was on a roll for a while working himself up to telling the rest of us what happened, but then he went silent again? Maybe he will come back and give it another shot?
Back in the day…he was the rebel and I was the conformist. Now I’m not sure who is who anymore? Actually…I’m pretty sure neither one of us are conformists.
And yes…a time honored dirty trick of management for law enforcement people who get out of line is to pull their creds, take their guns and send them to shrinks for Fitness For Duty Psyhiatuc Evaluations.
They did it twice to me because the Continuing Criminal Enterprise that is BLM manage reasoned that I MUST have been crazy to talk to them like I did?
But…I kept acing all of the written tests and actual psychiatric examinations by a two person team that included a psychiatrist and a psychologist…twice.
And then I got my creds and guns back both times and then I got to tell them I was the only person I knew who worked for the BLM who had been certified in writing by mental health professionals to be SANE…twice.
If anybody is curious why the BLM managers are in a class all by themselves compared to their nearest sister agencies, the National Park Service and the U.S. Forest Service, here’s why.
Both of those agencies have long and proud histories of fulfilling the missions on behalf of the American people as those missions were envisioned by the visionaries and politicians who created them, whether you hate them or love them. They both have over 100 years of tradition, history, culture and a strong ethical ethos.
And in the case of the NPS, their primary mission was to take responsibility for all of our “National Jewels” like Yosemite, the Grand Canyon, Sequoia-Kings Canyon, Yellowstone, the Olympic National Park, Mt Rainier etc. and lots of other things like the Liberty Bell, Ellis Island and hundreds of miscellaneous things nobody really cares about while being led by men like John Muir in the name of PRESERVATION policies and staffed by professionals who got college degrees in whatever they get college degrees in, but almost all of them are dedicated idealists who care about what they do.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir
And in the case of the U.S. Forest Service, they were created by visionaries to manage our vast expanses of great western forests to meet the needs of a growing nation who needed wood for almost everything for then and for the future generations in the name of MULTIPLE USE policies, which of course environments hate because they cut down too many trees and business interests hate because they don’t cut down enough trees.
And since nobody is ever happy with the job the USFS is doing, it probably means they are doing their jobs about right led by men like Gifford Pinchot and staffed by professionals who got college degrees in Forestry etc. but almost all of them are dedicated pragmatics who care about what they do.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifford_Pinchot
The BLM on the other hand, has NONE of that going for them. The politicians and special interest groups took all federal land that was left over that weren’t either great National Parks or National Forests that had been land the General Land Office couldn’t even give away back in the day.
They that land together with everything managed by some bastard federal agency nobody has ever heard of, the Taylor Grazing Service, and every other section of land that wasn’t given to the railroads to pay them for building the Transcontinental Railroad and you know…ultimately driving the Golden Spike somewhere in Bumfuck, Utah.
Hence the “checkerboard” appearance of millions of acres of BLM managed land that was “one for me” (the railroads) and “one for you” (the ranchers, miners, utility companies, oil and natural gas companies etc.) and every other special interest group who has gotten filthy rich from raping the land and ripping off the taxpayers for decades now.
And as a result, the BLM now manages more land than all other federal agencies put together by a Factor of X because they also manage all oil, gas and minerals owned by the federal government and that on Indian Reservations (on behalf of the tribes) as well. And land that was once worthless and could only be loved by God and the BLM…is now PRICELESS in every respect including almost the ENTIRE state of Alaska.
All of that wouldn’t have been so bad, but the corrupt, bought and paid for politicians and the special interest groups staffed almost all top BLM managers from the very industries they were supposed to be regulating. People who were oil executives one day, became BLM State Directors the next day. Mining company executives one day, became the BLM Washington Staff the next day and their job was to give away the candy store…no questions asked until they went back to their industry jobs and the next wave of thieves, grifters, con artists stepped in to continue their criminal enterprise.
And so virtually NO MANAGERS were either college educated professionals who came up through the ranks and were either idealists or pragmatics. They were all just criminals ripping off the tax payers YOU PEOPLE and me.
It was an incestuous and filthy dirty relationship between corrupt politicians, all of them including both Democrats and Republicans, special interest groups and private industries who the corrupt oligarchs of Russia have nothing on.
Oh…and by the way…it’s always bad, but the Trump Administration has managed to take the wholesale rape of America to entirely new and previously unheard of levels of greed and corruption.
How can they get away with it? It’s because YOU PEOPLE don’t either know or care about the more than 200 million acres of BLM land you own and should be benefitting from. You only know and care about your National Parks and National Forests, which are doing pretty good because the FOXES WEREN’T PUT IN CHARGE OF THOSE HEN HOUSES.
The only thing that will ever change the cancerous ethos that has been created and developed unchecked over the preceding decades to manage the BLM is if the Attorney General Bill Barr and President Trump, or those who replace them, eventually…be it either Democrat or Republicans would round almost all BLM managers up and charge all of them with RICO and send them to prison so the few professionals they do employ could have a fighting chance to hit the reset button with what is probably the most corrupt agency in the federal government.
And NONE of that is going to happen because the very worst offenders, are all of the WESTERN Senators and Congressman who legislate the BLM to sell your resources for pennies on the dollar in exchange for pennies on the dollar to their re-election campaigns from the special interest groups because YOU PEOPLE don’t have the slightest idea just how bad it really is and what’s more…you really don’t care enough to find out.
For example…here is a current one to watch…if you care?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_Mine
Oh…and one more thing. They started the party by forcing me to sign an undated letter of resignation under threat they would fire me if I didn’t.
And so before they could use the resignation letter I signed under duress, I filed a Whistleblower Complaint (a book) with the USDI Office of Inspector General which triggered a massive investigation of them, which none of them survived, but it took several years.
That gave me formal protection from direct retaliation under the Whistle Blower Protection Act and so they tried back door tricks like the psychiatrist Fitness For Duty Evaluations, and I was targeted by 6 internal investigations by special agents from outside agencies, But…I was cleared by every one of them and never even had one day of leave without pay.
I showed up for work one morning and I had my badge, credentials and guns taken away from me and I was put on a plane that same day to another state begin three months of psychiatric testing and evaluations.
But it didn’t start then because I knew it was coming for months and after it was over, I knew they would try again at some point, which they did and so the stress never started or stopped. It was ever present in my life.
The stress ? It almost destroyed my life and me, but I retired and most of them didn’t except under threat of being fired themselves.
So…we can laugh about it now. Hahaha.
But…it hasn’t stopped just because I’m not there anymore. The BLM top level managers are still giving away your resources for pennies on the dollar while industry executives do the revolving door thing with the blessing and protection of most, if not all Westerns Senators and some Western Representatives.
Oh well…it’s not MY problem anymore. I have my piece of the pie. I’m going’…Jeepin’ etc. and so on and so forth.
😎
Oh…and that new Whistleblower for the Ukraine thing and nice life they and their family used to have? In a best case scenario…their life as they knew it is OVER and they are OFFICIALLY FUCKED FOR LIFE.
Okay…here is just one small example to illustrate the point I am trying to make that both BLM top managers and politicians are in it together.
When I retired from the BLM in 2006, there were about 50 Criminal Investigates (Special Agents) in the entire agency and that included state office and Washington Office supervisors and managers who didn’t go to the field or conduct investigations. And there were about 150 uniformed patrol officers in the entire agency with the same ration for non field going Rangers in both state offices and D.C. and that number is probably the same today.
Now…I have explained to you briefly just how complex the mission of BLM law enforcement is with everything that is going on, on BLM land. which includes all of the oil and gas (including offshore deposits) and subsurface minerals the federal government owns, even those subsurface minerals that are under National Forests and other federal land. They manage the surface, but the BLM managers the subsurface.
Now…I have explained to you how YOU actually own all of that land and the resources on it, is worth a total in dollars that is to big of a number to write.
Almost everybody who operates on BLM managed land making money, and I have told you that is just about everybody, is responsible to self report how much they are taking and how much they should pay in fees because the BLM isn’t able to hire civil servants to do that kind of work the Foxes who run the hen house, or the politicians who provide the funding for the agency to operate with, want them to have any more employees they can possibly get away with.
Now…I have explained to you that you own so much land and so many resources, the value can’t be calculated.
So..here is the bottom line. You only have a total of about 200 investigators and uniform patrol officers to patrol your priceless resources and investigations to investigate when someone steals from you.
You have about one law enforcement officer, (which includes investigators in addition to state office and WO personnel who don’t really do anything proactively protect your property) per 1,000,000 acres of land you own. That is about 200 LE personnel to protect about 200 million acres of your land and corresponding resources on that land that is worth so much money the number can’t be calculated.
Does that seem like a reasonable way to staff a money making business in order to protect what you own…if you were in business it make money from the land you own. Oh…and ranchers, lots of ranchers graze their livestock on federal land for next to nothing compared to what they would pay…say their neighbor to use their land.
Why do you think neither BLM management, nor the Western Senators and Representatives who provide both the funding and authorization for you to hire people to manage your assets, keeps those numbers so ridiculously low?
Do you think it might be because none of them want either patrol officers or investigators out there on your 200 million acres of land protecting it?
Because maybe…just maybe, they are afraid that might interfere with, or make it harder for them to give your candy store away…for pennies on the dollar, or even less?
How do you feel about that?
I didn’t intend to be opaque when talking about how I showed up for work one morning and was put on a plane that day and flown to another state to begin three months of psyche testing.
My office at the time was with U.S. Customs Air Interdiction where they maintained both Blackhawks and pursuit aircraft on the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque.
I was then flown without any advance notice for a psyche evaluation by a Police Psychiatrist and Psychologist who had the federal contract to do that kind of thing in Tucson, Arizona.
My testing started immediately upon my arrival in Tucson that same morning and continued for the entire day to start with.
After they finally finished with me, I met with the psychiatrist and he only spoke 4 words for me. I don’t know everything that was in his report, but he said to me, “Go back to work.” That was it. Go back to work. And so I got up and went back to work.
😎
Oh…and just one more interesting thing I never understood even after 18 years with the BLM.
There is a BLM Office in Milwaukee from where they manage the eastern coal mines and fields. Figure that one out if you can?
Oh…and I was never much help with most of the things I mentioned anyway.
I was usually just too damn busy fuckin’ around down on the Mexican Border because you know…that’s where the pure adrenaline shots were and I had to feed the monkey.
Everybody has to feed the monkey on their back.
Fighting wildfire…is addictive. It would be best just to never become addicted to adrenaline and then you neither have to feed the monkey, or suffer through withdrawals. Just you know…FYI.
You can not not like Gary O. I know a double negative forbidden in the Kings English but forgive my Irish brogue.. Foibles are meant to testy your mental stability. If ye be offended then reach down into your innermost being to see what is the problem. It might also test your empathy factor to give latitude to those of lesser ability. No I am not degrading you or me. But I would understand how Gary sets the pace for honest–right out front and you never have to guess his take on things. Thanks Gary we do need more like you–well there are quite a few here on who wants to know the truth.
That was a good article on the Alaskan Pepple ordeal. Good Lords of the Irish–they have already spent a couple hundred million trying to figure out how not to kill the fish. EPA said no matter, putting the mine in will be a disaster to the Salmon and more concerning the environment all around. But you notice EPA was not about to put stops to it–who would want Trump breathing down your shirt–did you see what he did to Vince McMahon? Vince is a pretty tough hombre but Trump had him on the floor in a heart beat. Can you imagine some of those wimps in EPA back talking Trump? He already has their DNA samples–God knows he has their Emails and private lives down pat–even photos of them stuffing twenties in some stripper dive in Alaska. He could cause some bad damage physical or emotional–wives see those public photos and the shit hits the fan but worse if you find you are unseated from your position. EPA and high government do not have jobs–they have positions–and a big pecker sized according to the pecking order.
Bernie Sanders is out with a couple heart stints–caught him before he went down totally with a public heart attack. He would have been a weak choice anyway–who knows maybe one of the ladies will beat Trump out next round–but I wonder does it matter who will be there.
Oil and big Industry can and will crush anyone trying to mess up their golden goose egg production. And in that mine they are talking about many billions in profit–Salmon and environment will always be secondary. And do not think Big Oil is not into mining–the Uranium mine that caved on me and got me disqualified to contract mine underground was owned by Standard Oil of Ohio. They generally use straw companies so it does not seem to be their operations of pollution and environmental damage. Well you have some of the best minds working out the problems when you can pay top wages.
In the case of the EPA guys, whoever put up a semblance of resistance yet did no action to prevent the mine operation from going forward will be rewarded in two ways–Trump won’t send his goons up and the mining companies will (may have promised) him a fat cat position in the mining world. It is no problem to grease the wheels if you have no problem spending a couple hundred million just looking at a mine situation. Good bye Salmon–you just got killled–jobs Great America, and progress have just outbid your plea for life and justice.
Gary,
Finally getting around to answering you … in part.
You posted “It kinda sounded like RTS was on a roll for a while working himself up to telling the rest of us what happened, but then he went silent again? Maybe he will come back and give it another shot?”
Still working through the odious Windows 10 ongoing nightmare … the gift that keeps on giving. And have to wait for the formal investigation on the hacking incidents..
Still a rebel and non-conformist. Both of us non-conformists.
When did I accuse you of being Machiavellian? And the same for following Sun Tzu?
Oh man…it was like 4 years ago on the Machiavellian post. And you didn’t write I was a student of his, that was just my interpretation. I think you actually said I was Machiavellian because of the whole special agent mind meld thing I periodically try with very little practical effect. And I was just kidding about being offended, because I think there are some good things we can learn from everyone…including Machiavelli. Just sayin….
Take Marsh for example. He reminded us that sometimes when people are sanctioned by the system for recklessly scribbling outside the lines and then using pages from the coloring book to make some big blunts to smoke with the saw team on the line…they really are Terminal Fuck Ups as opposed to how I have always viewed myself…as merely a Situational Fuck Up.
Although went I went out on my first expanded dispatch team with Sherrill Lambson, who was an old school BIA FMO from Ramah, New Mexico, to fight the big one from the comforts of a nice office and motel room, he taught me that it’s NOT a Fuck Up IF you can recover. That is a critical skill set when working expanded dispatch in an area you are unfamiliar with. Tom…Tom…Tom…damn it…from ABQ BLM was our third team member. Tom is a great guy, we had a lot of fun during that trip.
We went to Asheville, North Carolina, for a couple of weeks where we ended up at Bill Stanley’s Blue Grass and Barbecue to party. And there wasn’t any place to sit because the place was jam packed.
When Bill Stanley heard from the bouncers that we were “firefighters” who had come all of the New Mexico to save their in their “hollers” and the Forests on their Appalachia Mountains…Bill Stanley personally escorted us up and seated us at the bands table in the front of a really big room with hundreds of drunk crackers and hillbillies where the band’s wives and girlfriends were already sitting. at their personal table.
And then Bill left us sitting there without any explanation to the crackers and hillbillies so at their first break, the band and their cracker and hillbilly posse wanted to fight us. And neither Sherrill or Tom are very big guys, a lot of fun, but…
But then when Bill heard the ruckus…he came running up to the front and after he explained what was going on…the band wanted us to come up on the stage and clog with them and buy us drinks.
And then all of the cracker and hillbilly women lined up to insist we clog with all of them. I was really relieved when I found out clogging didn’t mean what I thought it did!
Anyway…we had hundreds of drunk crackers and hillbillies celebrate their new heroes until closing time because we (the great firefighters) had come all of the way from what they thought was a foreign country ( New Mexico) to save their forests and “hollers.”
Anyway…that trip confirmed exactly what I had always suspected during my 10 years as a hotshot (during which I never spent even one night in a motel, or anywhere other than airport tarmacs, National Guard Armories, high school gyms, or just sleeping on the ground in a parking lot. And during that time, I only ordered one cooked to order meal when they didn’t get the memo at a Denny’s on our way to the Crossman Peak Fire of 1980, that they were supposed to just put precooked scrambled eggs, hash browns, link sausage, whole wheat toast and orange juice in front of us and call it good, And I was so confused when the waitress asked me what I wanted, I said, “I would like precooked scrambled eggs, hash browns, link sausage, whole wheat toast and orange juice, thank you.” And then the entire crew, except for my assistant, ordered the same thing I did one by one as the waitress went around the table) there are firefighters and then there are…”firefighters.” And i did find out what I had always suspect, it was much better to be a “firefighter.”
I did feel very guilty for about 10…or maybe even for as long as 15 minutes? And then I announced to all of the adoring hillbillies and crackers that yes…they were correct, I had traveled a great distance just to do what I could to save their world.
And as far as the whole
Sun Tzu thing goes, that was just a few weeks ago…so one of us…or both of us, needs to get screened for Alzheimer’s disease and either Sudden Onset Dementia and/or Frontotemporal dementia. Just sayin….
And as far as your computer issues go…I feel your pain. I have sworn for years I had bought my last PC and when that last one crashed for good, I was going to make the BIG SWITCH to an Apple.
And the reason I had put the switch off for so many years was because I feared the steep learning curve and it has been even worse than I thought it would be.
And I’m pretty sure you know I was just tryin’ my SA mind meld thing again by pimping you about telling us what you know? I believe you will tell us when you deem the time to be right and you think we have evolved enough to handle the truth. I trust both you and Joy to do the right thing.
Namaste…🙏🏻
This is the new me. How do you like me now?
Gary,
The Machiavellian thing, if I accused you of it, would have been about manipulating and using people just to get what you needed and then tossed them away like a rag.
The Sun Tzu thing was a heads up for Harold or someone, just letting him know what he was getting into. More a subtle compliment to you to acknowledge your actions.
Regarding the bits and pieces of the truth yet to come out, I was (and still am) hoping for DND to come forward and contribute.
It’s gonna be forever waiting for me to to “think we have evolved enough to handle the truth” because I refuse to believe in the lies and junk science of evolution. It’s an insult to my intelligence to believe I came from a slime pool and so much more.
This is an amazing website well worth checking out.
( https://answersingenesis.org/ )
And the new you? You were okay before except for the recurring rants and raves
Yes…you Sir are correct about all of that! You know..except about the website. That is a premature assessment regarding the website.. But…I will go check it out! Thank you for just being you!
Wait…is confessing to plants kinda like an “The Onion” thing?
https://www.theonion.com/
Sooooo….are you are saying this is a bad thing?
“…manipulating and using people just to get what you needed and then tossed them away like a rag.
Oh…and one more thing RTS. Thank you so much for the heartfelt recommendation and rousing endorsement.
“And the new you? You were okay before except for the recurring rants and raves.”
I feel so much better about myself now! Your use of the colloquial term of endearment of “okay”, pretty much says it all. You are indeed a generous person!
And what do I think of you.? I love you just the way you are like a brother from another mother and I don’t want you to change ANYTHING about yourself because then you wouldn’t be you.
You would be RTS 2.0 and I just don’t know how I would feel about him?
Namaste brother…🙏🏻
Gary I opine is right on with his report. It is too bad that it is the big money interest groups that manage things. And true it is set up so the taxpayer is footing the bill to keep them rich.
Yes I did manage a half way house at one time on a year contract–In those days it was called the Thorazine shuffle. It probably still exists but since I have been out of the circle for so many years by now I am certain the Shrink uses newer drugs. Some in those days were in a Zombie state.
But what has that to do with wild land fire fighting? I am not sure but some things that happened at Yarnell as a result of the action and tragedy might put you in a Shrink’s office. Just be aware of the side effects of drugs prescribed–the Doc might not tell you but usually they will hand you a list and it might be a long one. If you get some of the bad effects he can always give you another drug to counteract the side effects or else change you to a different drug. I am not a medical doctor so don’t take my advice but know that everyone is human and to err is human. The big errors are when it causes lives and we did see that at Yarnell–Doctors kill a few as well–well known that fact.
Do be cautious when someone else’s life depend upon your decisions. And that is multiplied many times over when it concerns a crew of 19.
Now that the clean air act is being repealed, then how many lives will it effect. Well you must balance that with how many jobs will be restored I suppose. I do think that selling face filters will be a flourishing business–a good idea to help keep our health for certain. Maybe Trump should add that to his wealth building scheme. Certain it is that wild land fire fighters need to wear them as often as possible considering the toxic chemicals they are exposed to.
I have tried to use them on different occasions–with strenuous work it is hard. But rest assured those fire retardants are strictly toxic despite the downplay by the chemical companies and forest officials that promote them.
Few people know there are designer bacteria that have been patented–for example the Aids Virus and Ebola. These patents involve war time use of such bacteria and virus for use only in desperate war situations. The do escape at times and infect certain populations.
The war department is ever inventing new ways to win wars and we did well in the Iraq war with few casualties on going in–use of brain scrambling techniques worked wonders and the Iraq armies wee surrendering in massive numbers. That was great since many lives were saved actually on both sides but it also tells us how advanced government techniques are. Many scientists have said that technology is 50 years or more beyond what the public is informed of. I believe that.
Somewhere along the line more than 50% of physical tasks in industry will be robotic. There will be lots of unemployment from that. There will have to be some robot technicians -might be a good job for the young man to look into–that and medical professions.
Fire fighting might have a bleak future once all the forests are pretty much burned away. Global warming, arsonists, and natural causes will make sure they do.
And I would predict that we are a long way off from weaning ourselves from oil and coal usage. Nuclear energy will always be a disaster about to happen–and I don’t know what part it will do to stop global warming–using one evil to fight another evil and the uranium, plutonium evils are at the top of toxins to humans and environment. They are parked along waterways as well–not much is said about the Japanese melt downs now a days but many cancers can be attributed there world wide. Japan’s revenge for Hiroshima and Nagasaki–Karma at work you might say.
So the 160 scientists from the world of nations prediction that the population need be reduced to 800 million by 2030 might just be met by hook or crook.
Correction–last statement by the Elite Scientists from 160 nations at Cairo, Egypt was MUST be met by 2030 else the earth environment will become uninhabitable. Hopefully they will be able to extend the date some.
Ha Joy–Truth is I have had 6 wives if I count them right. All good women I was the bad guy and when you ran that ad in the paper that Sonny was going to host a party at the Yarnell Bar to celebrate his soon to be 7th wedding. You had posted who is the lucky lady? Well half the town of Yarnell showed up, even some non drinkers only to find they had been hoodwinked. I was having a shot of Jack Daniels #7 to celebrate not having the 7th wedding. So no I am not a good marriage candidate–I like my freedom too much and surviving 6 marriages might be the limit. After all that first wife had taken a pot shot at me with my own pistol–45 long colt and it kicked up a hell of a dust in front of me–I cleared a 6 foot fence to allow her time to cool off. Well nothing like a good spat in a marriage and you are bound to have a few.
I just got back from a good 6 mile hike and survived that. Nothing like being out in the middle of the desert where the only fellow to argue with is yourself and maybe my white German Shepard that does not argue. I never feel alone out there with my dog and seeing Indian chippings. Their spirit lurks the desert air–I think I might have been an Indian in an earlier life–maybe even a Mexican since I speak Mexican so well. But there is nothing better than my Irish blood. The Irish Gods are good friends as well and hang out with Jesus at times I am certain.
We call ourselves free as Americans. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Material wealth if it means a lot to you, yes we are abundant with. But we are not the only nation that way, yet half the world lives on less than $2 per day according to some experts. I can tell you that some of the poorest people also are some of the richest–some get by on that amount. Some of those old Indians never had $2 a day–they knew how to make it on these deserts and pretty well until the fences went up and the buffalo were killed out and replaced with cattle and fences.
But certain things are getting tighter–wives now having to work when before they could make ends meet and take care of the home and children. Now they need to be tied to a job or career. And folks are stuck in the nasty bee hives called cities. There is no way out for them–it is determined that they can not be free but must be part of the system with the fat Queen bee and attending Drones running the show.
Well there is an escape–become a hiker–Joy will tell you how and the enjoyment, peace of mind and calmness to find that freedom that the mundane life of a city dude has to suffer. Stress will dissipate and all the shitty influences like TV ads, people peddling, control freaks and others with agendas will leave the mind and you will get your brain back and control will be your own. That is when the greatest and purest thoughts come to mind.
It is great to be a Catholic–you have confessed and now you go on but you confessed and admitted to some faults and sins. At least they are brought to mind and now you can see the light and do well. I have confessed to the Priest but now a days there are some nasty Priests–maybe they don’t have the pipeline to God they ought to have. So confessing to the desert or even your dog and God might be a good alternative. Well I was just thinking of that sick one Mr. Donut. We all know he lied plenty–but he keeps it up. Hard row to hoe–there is no sympathy on my part there. He has done much damage to the loved ones holding back like he did from the start and continues to do. So pull out your hankies for his tears–but I won’t. I would however admonish him to do the right thing and quit the life of lies.
He should post here on IM for these folks–it would be a great help to his addictions including that of living the lie.
A bit about the Bromates in fire retardant and also in the chem trails used to seed the sky and for other reasons of radar reflection to extend coverage. Those also contain micro particle of aluminum to help with the reflective qualities. The Bromates are neurotoxin and highly toxic.
And if you have symptoms of lesions that will not heal, lethargy, joint and muscle pain extreme, mind not as sharp as it should while doctors can’t figure it out–see if you have been vaccinated–they use aluminum hydroxide as an adjutant and most likely your doctor will never find the cause. Those lesions and symptoms can be there 6-8 years after a vaccination There is a TUBI documentary Aluminum Injection where the French finally tied in vaccinations with people that were suffering with symptoms not understood until they were able to connect all the people with vaccinations. They were in a quandary because they say that the vaccinations are necessary and they did not want to connect those people with the vaccines but lesion tissues all had aluminum.
We breath in enough of the Chem Trails that government needs to spread–especially around Military Bases for our radar detection security. So add the vaccines and retardant and other chemicals from the retardant then the cumulative effects–not good for a long life span.
The elite scientists from 160 nations met in Cairo, Egypt in 1973. They determined that the population of this planet can only sustain 800 million. They reported that if that figure is not met by 2030 the earth will become irreversibly inhabitable for human occupation.
It is a fact that some major cities and areas that the oxygen levels are down to 5%. The usual level of O2 should be at 20-22%. Are we preparing for a species that can live without oxygen? Those scientists might have a slant on things to come- 6 Billion of the worlds population needs to die according to their predictions–are you one of the elite?
**
** ONE SMALL STEP.
** ONE GIANT LEAP.
It was more than 9 years ago, in April of 2011, when the distinguished Wildland Fire Accident Investigator Dr. Ted Putnam first presented his now-famous paper entitled “Accidents, accident guides, stories and truth” at the the 11th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit in Missoula, Montana.
For those same 9 years, the official Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( established in 2002 ) has continually refused to either publish any links to Dr. Putnam’s famous paper, or have a copy of it available in their own library of Wildland Fire Safety publications.
About 8 hours ago ( on the afternoon of today, September 20, 2019 ) that ( finally ) changed.
Dr. Putnam’s paper has now been published HERE at the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Title: Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth
Author Name: Ted Putnam, PhD
Author Association: Mindful Solutions, 3431 Flicker LN, Missoula, MT 59804,
Author Email: tputnam (at) bresnan.net
Origin: From the Proceedings of 11th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 4-8, 2011, Missoula, Montana, USA
Original Publisher: International Association of Wildland Fire, Missoula, Montana, USA
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/viewdocument/accidents-accident-guides-stories
Some excerpts from Dr. Ted Putnam’s famous paper.
NOTE: Keep in mind that this paper was originally published in April of 2011, a full TWO YEARS ( and two months ) BEFORE the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy and its subsequent botched SAIT investigation.
————————————————————————————————————
Abstract / Introduction:
Here at the 11th Wildland Fire Safety Summit we are students of fire safety, which is our basic reason for gathering to exchange our collective and separate visions. The secondary theme is how stories and narratives aid in this process.
Historically accident investigations have provided crucial feedback for maximizing safety.
These investigations have usually produced step-by-step factual reports to document the accident.
Recently some investigations have recommended relating the accident in a story format to increase readability, interest and learning within firefighter safety cultures.
Generally the goal of accident reports is to convey as much of the truth of an event that is discoverable.
However time, money, skill level, skill variety, accident guide used and other related factors can either enhance or deter the depth of understanding the accident causal elements.
Sometimes investigators deliberately distort or do not report all the causal elements.
Such biases lead firefighters to distrust the resulting reports, which can hamper our efforts to stay safe.
———————————————————————————————————-
From PDF page 6.
Again… this was published more than TWO YEARS prior to the Yarnell tragedy…
———————————————————————————————————-
Historically wildland fire entrapment investigations have operated with strong biases and typically left out entire quadrants of analysis, i.e. the cultural and intentional quadrants. Often these actions involve deceptive accounts but sometimes they involve misleading accounts.
Why do people and agencies do this?
Below are some of the reasons based on my personal observations:
Reasons for deceptive accounts include:
– Other organizations do it (such as structural and wild fire agencies, the Military, NASA, etc.).
– The agency will be sued if we don’t
– Key individuals have suffered enough
– The Agency will look bad.
– We’ll correct the situation when “the ashes have settled,” but it seems the ashes never settle.
– Using political agendas to falsify or withheld accident causes
– Sending unskilled employees who aren’t likely to find much to report
Reasons for misleading accounts include:
– Sending good, yet untrained people to investigate
– Seldom asking for highly trained investigators even when they have the relevant, necessary skills such as psychological, sociological and organizational experts
– Sending interested parties as investigators with known biases
– Sending only people with only firefighting expertise, as that is primarily what they will notice and report
– Removing witnesses and evidence before the team arrives
– Failing to preserve the accident scene
– Ineffective interviewing skills that lead to short, incomplete accounts, i.e., lack of sufficient detail to understand underlying human factor causes.
– Analyzing the accident using a set of rules (the 10 and 18) that is guaranteed to show firefighters did not follow them and then report superficially that firefighters failed to obey or follow them with a subsequent perennial easy fix: “Back to the Basics” of following the 10 and 18
– Quick turn-around, low cost investigations: If it’s not reported, you don’t have to fix it and can’t be held responsible later for similar future occurrences including fatalities.
———————————————————————————————————–
Whoops… got a year ahead of myself in the post above.
It’s not 2020 ( yet ). It’s still 2019.
Opening paragraphs above SHOULD have read like this…
—————————————————————————————————
It was more than EIGHT years ago, in April of 2011, when the distinguished Wildland Fire Accident Investigator Dr. Ted Putnam first presented his now-famous paper entitled “Accidents, accident guides, stories and truth” at the the 11th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit in Missoula, Montana.
For those same EIGHT years, the official Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( established in 2002 ) has continually refused to either publish any links to Dr. Putnam’s famous paper, or have a copy of it available in their own library of Wildland Fire Safety publications.
About 8 hours ago ( on the afternoon of today, September 20, 2019 ) that ( finally ) changed.
—————————————————————————————————-
Thanks WTKTT–That is amazing they would publish his paper–Very wise and pertinent information from a man who has the experience to back up his analysis of the wild land fire investigation problem. It describes the poorly done investigation at Yarnell and all the reasons behind it.
Joy is about to post a report on the Fire Retardants and their terrible effects on the environment and people. Ten parts per million of Florine is all it takes to do damage to the human body and environment. That is a minute amount, but another of the halogens used in Fire Retardants is Bromine. Bromine is a lung destroyer and both Bromine and Florine are carcinogens and are dangerous even in parts per million. Watch out for Brominated or Halogenated Fire Retardants–you will suffer down the line with cancer, heart attacks and renal problems.
There will always be a problem with these types poisons and even the phosphates and ammonium compounds in retardants. Once they are heated by the fires there are even more deadly chemicals created. Sadly people do not always immediately suffer the effects, but it only takes a look at people that have long exposure to these chemicals to realize how horrific to health these chemicals are. Firefighter statistics prove that fact out–your heart attacks and cancer rates are way beyond the norm but the chemical companies will continue to tell you that their poisons are safe.
If the EPA fined the Chemical Giants $70,ooo for a clean up job it is laughable. Their profits in the billions and damage to the environment and health should have them in bankrupt proceedings and some of them in jail.
WTKTT,
Thanks for posting Dr. Putnam’s research paper, ignored by the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (WLFLLC) for over eight years in spite of their Missions Statement: ” Our mission is to promote learning in the wildland fire service by providing useful and relevant products and services that help to reveal the complexity and risk in the wildland fire environment
Kudos to the WLFLLC for finally seeing the light and acknowledging and now posting this beneficial paper that until now could only be found at ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) and Academia [dot] edu
_____________________________________________
And here is another small step yet less than giant leap for GMHS alleged “lookout” McDid-Not, this next weekend at the 14th annual Celebrate the Art of Recovery Expo (CARE) where Community Bridges, Inc. (CBI) will break down the barriers to find help and hope in recovery.
“When: Saturday, September 28, 2019 from 10 a.m. – 2 p.m. Where: Phoenix Convention Center, West Building #300 Why: To celebrate National Recovery Month and break down the barriers associated with addiction
” Brendan McDonough – KEYNOTE SPEAKER – Lone Survivor of Yarnell Hill Wildfire
“When it comes to really digging deep in recovery, in work, as a family man, and in faith, Brendan McDonough is living proof that Breaking Down Barriers leads to success in recovery. And to being happy, joyous and free.
“Out of 20 of Prescott, Arizona’s Granite Mountain Hotshots, Brendan McDonough’s life was spared.
“That fateful summer day in 2013 brings haunting memories for Brendan. Ones fraught with depression, despair, post-traumatic stress disorder and one all-encompassing thought: Why me?
“Previous to becoming a Hotshot, Brendan already had overcome incredible barriers by recovering from a crippling heroin and alcohol addition, with his then-unborn daughter as inspiration. Staying off of drugs after the emotional trauma of losing his brothers was yet another seemingly insurmountable barrier.
“Instead of ultimately succumbing, he faced his addiction and behavioral triggers with grace, and continues to walk a meaningful journey with the memory of his fallen Hotshot brothers compelling him forward. And moreover, believing there to be a powerful reason his life was saved.
“Today, Brendan’s growing family can be proud of their father, who walks in service of others as they encounter sobriety one day at a time. At CARE, you’ll hear how he threads these incredible lessons into the fabric of his life, his work, his family, and most importantly, his faith in his higher power.
“You won’t want to miss Brendan’s story.”
“11:00 am | Keynote Speaker – Brendan McDonough, Former Granite Mountain Hotshot & Lone Survivor of the Yarnell Hill Wildfire, shares his experiences as he struggled through depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and one all-encompassing thought: Why me?! ”
“12:00 am | Q & A with Kerry & Brendan – Kerry and Brendan dive deep into the impact and role that an outsider plays when one is going through a crisis or traumatic event.”
“1:00 PM | Meet & Greet with Brendan – Brendan McDonough will be available for a personal encounter. Please stop by and share a moment with this incredible human being.”
( https://www.celebratetheartofrecovery.org/ )
OMG! Are you kidding me?
You mean, the original Fire Order Number 10 is old and “Hillbilly” and how the GMHS were smarter than that ‘hero’? The suspense, the drama, the half-truths, the reasons why he never told the whole truth about what occurred on June 30, 2013; failed to comply with at least two subpoena requests, lawyered up, and wrote a book instead, to the chagrin of the many GMHS family members, friends, and loved ones … rebuffing all those seeking the truth.
How about it McDid-Not … believing that the powerful reason your life was saved by a higher power for your living proof status is to honor your fallen GMHS “Brothers” and tell all of us the truth about that fateful day.
.
Reply to Charlie post on September 14, 2019 at 12:37 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> David Kelley – another supporter of the Yarnell fables.
>> You can recognize them by their remarks. And you can bet he is in
>> bed with the likes of Amanda, Willis, and anyone supporting
>> the fantasy perpetrated by the SAIR report
Perhaps not.
Someone named ‘David Kelley’, who says he has “studied the subject” of the 2013 Yarnell Fire “extensively”, left another public comment on an article that featured an interview with Amanda Marsh.
In that video interview, which took place just before the first anniversary of the tragedy, Amanda Marsh ends up doing her own bit of “imagineering” about what happened in Yarnell, and says things like ‘lightning strikes’ were a primary concern and some stuff about Granite Mountain somehow NOT having any weather information… and then some people “called her out” on her version of events.
One of those ‘persons’ was named ‘David Kelley’…
TRkeys – Dcourier videos
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hotshot wife Amanda Marsh speaks about her pain and healing
Published: 30 Jun 2014
https://trkeys.net/watch/G2Uangj0XGM-granite-mountain-hotshot-wife-amanda-marsh-speaks-about-her-pain-and-healing.html
From that ( public ) video interview with Amanda Marsh…
———————————————————————————————————–
+0:00
Hello. I am Amanda Marsh.
I am the widow of Eric Marsh, who was the superintendent of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, and he died with the rest of his crew on June 30, 2013, on Yarnell Hill, in Arizona.
+11:12
And, of course, their deaths are very controversial, and so…
A lotta people seem to have a lot of opinions, when they were not there.
They do not understand fire.
They have no concept of actually what occurred… and… uhm… I think something that’s… uhm… very important to realize is that people talk about how the crew left the black that day on Yarnell Hill, and they died because they left the black.
Well there’s a LOT of information out there that the public does NOT know.
And one thing that I would really like to clarify for people is that it was in the middle of a monsoon. They were on a ridge line. On bare ground, on a ridge line. They were absolutely affected by the monsoon that was going on around them.
So… lightning striking around them.
Uhm… without the information of… uh… weather.
Oncoming weather. Which they did NOT have that information.
They did NOT know.
They left the black because they thought they were safe.
And they left the black because they knew that that was the safer…
With the information they had that was the safer alternative for them.
So… I’d really like that piece of controversy to be put to rest.
———————————————————————————————————
Some of the ( public ) comments that now accompany this published
video interview with Amanda Marsh…
———————————————————————————————————
Comment by: KEN5423 ( KEN5423Y )
Eric Marsh killed the Granite Mountain Hot Shots.
They were secure in the black. He killed them……he is no hero!
Reply from: David Kelley ( David Kelley10 )
I have studied the subject extensively. I agree.
Eric made a fatal decision. Steed disagreed but went anyway.
A result of many human errors.
———————————————————————————————————-
Followup ( clarification )…
When I posted the following ‘public’ comments up above which now accompany that June 30, 2014 video interview with Amanda Marsh…
————————————————————————————————–
Comment by: KEN5423 ( KEN5423Y )
Eric Marsh killed the Granite Mountain Hot Shots.
They were secure in the black. He killed them……he is no hero!
Reply from: David Kelley ( David Kelley10 )
I have studied the subject extensively. I agree.
Eric made a fatal decision. Steed disagreed but went anyway.
A result of many human errors.
————————————————————————————————–
…I don’t think I made it clear that I ( me, personally ), do NOT know if that is the SAME “David Kelley” who made the comments about Sonny and Joy up on YouTube.
Maybe it is. Maybe it isn’t.
Maybe it’s simply ‘another’ David Kelley ( who says he has studied the Yarnell tragedy ).
Thanks, WTKTT–This David Kelly I thought might be a wild land fire fighter. Sometimes I think my posts make me look like a clown–However, we were there and that monsoon idea did not hold. True the winds were up but the monsoon never made it unless it was sometime after their death. It was still clear weather yet the cold air from the thunderstorms were coming in from the Prescott area and higher elevations. There was no lightening storm either at the time of the evacuation. I think that can be verified by folks there–though I would be surprised if the storms did not move in later in the day.
As far as knowing the weather, Marsh was looking at those thunderstorms in the Northeast since early morning. He should have been able to read the weather easily from the two track–Dark clouds and lightening storms to the higher mountain range around Prescott would have told him that the winds would be headed toward the hot and dry Yarnell area at a lower elevation. But whether he knew about warnings from the weather men, I do not know. I was of the notion that they would all get weather updates every 30 minutes.
As for my own observations and especially seeing those storms to the NE, I had high adrenaline especially after I saw it hit the manzanita in the lower areas. I fully expected that fire to turn any minute and why I was in so insistent on getting to a safe area. I think if I had not experienced many storm situations from much outdoor life I would have been killed along with Joy.
Looking back, we had only made it out by about ten minutes or less. I had thought we should have had 30 minutes to an hour but at that time I did not know that wild land fire fighters are apt to start burns and I have sometimes thought that surely that Shrine burn we witnessed on video had something to do with cutting our time short. But now I am wondering if there was a burn on Sesame dirt track which DND has been alluding to since that would even be closer to the Boulder Rannch. You are only talking about an approximate mile–five minutes or less for that burn to move from Sesame then it went around that south ridge of the death canyon and would cut us off from getting to my vehicle.
I was in wonderment since from where we last saw the fire toward Peeples Valley I had estimated that we should have had some time even if it reversed. On the other hand I did know how fast wild fires can move.
Truly, Amanda was not there–but we were and I did see what was about to happen and could not imagine dropping off into any canyon on the east side of the Weavers. One thing we had no communications, no rescue party or concerns ab0ut where we were so we were on our own. And that went for the town of Yarnell as well–many barely escaped that fire since warnings there came very late when the fire was nearly upon the town. In fact many escaped only because they saw their back yards on fire. There was some reprieve there since the streets and residences gave some delay to the advance of the fire. But in the manzanita where the GMHS crew was there was absolutely no delay to the fire. I still wonder why they did not run to the boulder patch–but after seeing that they had no clue that the wind would reverse how could they have any forethought about the boulder patch being an alternative to laying out those skimpy fire blankets in a dense manzanita area.
What I see is that persons put in charge of wild land fire crews ought to have a long familiarity of the wild lands and storm situations. Sadly the GMHS crew, at least as far as the bosses were concerned knew little. Hillbilly rules my ass–the fact that Donut said that makes me understand that they had no clue about how to keep alive in wild land fire fighting situations and believed those life saving simple rules were not of value in wild land fire fighting situations–yet they are just common sense–something a few hillbillies have==proven by Rick McKensey who is a bonafied hillbilly cowboy of many years hill experience in that area–You Boys don’t get caught in that manzanita if that fire gets down the mountain.
Either way, it was negligence–perhaps from ignorance but also from stupidity that those young men were needlessly killed..
Reply to Charlie post on September 17, 2019 at 7:56 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> This David Kelly I thought might be a wild land fire fighter.
Perhaps. When he write ( publicly ) that (quote) “WE know what happened”, you have to wonder WHO he means by WE.
Wildland Firefighters in general?
Arizona Wildland Firefighters?
Prescott Fire Department FFs?
How small or large of a ‘group’ is this “WE know what happened” that he implies he is a ‘member’ of?
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> …we were there and that monsoon idea did not hold.
>>
>> True the winds were up but the monsoon never made it unless it
>> was sometime after their death. It was still clear weather
>> yet the cold air from the thunderstorms were coming in from
>> the Prescott area and higher elevations.
>>
>> There was no lightening storm either at the time of the evacuation.
YOU were, in fact, THERE.
YOU would know.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> As far as knowing the weather, Marsh was looking at those
>> thunderstorms in the Northeast since early morning. He should
>> have been able to read the weather easily from the two track–Dark
>> clouds and lightening storms to the higher mountain range around
>> Prescott would have told him that the winds would be headed toward
>> the hot and dry Yarnell area at a lower elevation.
There is ( and always has been ) all kinds of evidence ( testimony, audio recordings, etc. ) that give every indication that Marsh and Steed were perfectly aware of the weather situation.
Marsh is reported to have been the first one to tell OPS1 Todd Abel, circa 3:50 PM, that the winds were now getting all “squirrelly” up on the Weaver Ridge.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> But whether he knew about warnings from the weather men, I do not know.
Again, tons of existing evidence ( testimony, audio recordings, etc. ) which indicates both Marsh and Steed DID hear the crucial weather reports that day over the radio.
The original SAIT report says they did.
The original ADOSH report says they did.
Steed and McDonough discussed the crucial 3:30 PM weather report given out by Byron Kimball over the radio just before McDonough left his lookout position.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby was recorded in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos telling someone that Granite Mountain had ( quote ) “…been TOLD to pick it up and monitor the weather” ( unquote ).
OPS1 Todd Able told Marsh directly “Hunker and be SAFE”.
yada… yada… yada…
They ( Marsh and Steed ) knew perfectly well what was coming… but they decided to make the risky move, anyway.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Looking back, we had only made it out by about ten minutes or less.
>> I had thought we should have had 30 minutes to an hour but at that
>> time I did not know that wild land fire fighters are apt to start
>> burns and I have sometimes thought that surely that Shrine burn we
>> witnessed on video had something to do with cutting our time short.
>> But now I am wondering if there was a burn on Sesame dirt track
>> which DND has been alluding to since that would even be closer
>> to the Boulder Rannch.
Yes. Everything this “Downhillndirect” guy has alluded to ( AND the recent interview comments posted by RTS ) suggest the Sesame Street area as one of the burnout location(s).
His other ‘drive by’ comments also strongly suggest that we are now talking about at least TWO videos that eventually ‘disappeared’.
1. One video of FFs doing manual burnouts in the Shrine Road area.
2. Another video of FFs doing manual burnouts on Sesame Street area.
Still no EXACT location established for any possible Sesame burns.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Truly, Amanda was not there…
No, she wasn’t.
>> but WE were…
Yes, you were.
I had sometimes been suspect of a lightning strike starting that fire yet some people in Yarnell say they actually witnessed it. That Friday afternoon when Joy and I were looking at the smoke from the west side of the weavers and outside the gas station at Congress, Arizona, the fire had just begun. Rhonda, Joy’s hiking friend from several years had walked Joy out of the indoors to point it out. I was gassing up and we were headed up the mountain to Yarnell. From Congress gas station to Yarnell is about 9 miles but a windy road since it is over a thousand foot climb from the desert floor to Yarnell below the Weaver Range. As the crow flies to the fire would be more like 5 or 6 miles.
You could see that it was just below the top of the Weavers and appeared to be a single tree on fire, although the smoke was easily seen because the weather was clear. That was the mystery–how a lightening strike had come about in clear weather? I have researched it and there is a possibility and it is said lightening can strike within 6-12 miles from a storm area yet even then there were storm areas but more like 20-30 miles east and north east. Also I made several attempts to locate something that would attract lightening and be struck.
Those of us that have spent much time in the outdoors know what lightening does when it strikes a tree or say a Yucca. Up there where the fire started–and we knew since we could see the exact location and up a canyon that could not be mistaken. In fact later we got the exact co ordinates where it started and went there. Well there is not much on the West side of the Weavers in that area to strike as far as trees go–only brush, grass and boulder outcroppings.
It is an easy area to hike to since the two track trail takes you withing about 50-70 yards of the location. And if you were in Yarnell there was no way you could see the actual strike since the fire was down the hill some–some may have seen a lightening bolt but they could have never seen the actual point of strike and could only have seen the smoke some time after the strike if that was the actual cause of that fire. Like everything else, there seems to be a mystery to the Yarnell incident–perhaps lightening did start that fire but I could never absolutely find a point it had hit anything.
But this I know–there were no lightening strikes on the Weavers from that morning when we left at 3:30 am to the time we got back to my vehicle on Foothills Drive at I believe about 4:30–time check with Joy on that for exact time back. Yet I do understand there was a lightening storm headed toward Yarnell–and what time they started getting the lightening I could not say after 5 or 5:30 as we were descending the mountain back to Congress–Raining yes–but only hot embers from the winds that had kicked up.
Amanda said people speak but they do not know fires. Strange statement considering her husband certainly did not know or understand fires and no he was not running from lightening strikes–more like he played out a risk that cost the lives of his crew.
Thanks WTKTT–those details you point out brings much clarity to how people are putting out disinformation to bolster Marsh and Steed’s error of doing the unjustifiable and killing their crew.
Yes, WTKTT generally has the perfect analysis of things–and uncanny ability to gather and interpret the facts.
This David Kelly mighty indeed be someone of substance. He seems to know quite a lot and has a group that together have insider knowledge of what the facts were at Yarnell to kill those men.
(I haven’t worn clown shoes or boots) but then I might qualify without? However if David Kelly is indeed the person labeling me as a clown then he has my invitation to post here and explain. Seems that since I am a civilian with no general fire fighting experience other than saving my ass and Joy’s on that horrible day of death on June 30,2013. At least this clown knew better than to drop off in a box canyon choke full of manzanita.
I am however wise enough to know from visitations of bonafied wild land fire fighting bosses (about 100 hikes with wild land fire fighters), that what Marsh and Steed did was something all the experts would say wasnot wise firefighting–all said they were trying to understand how that happened.
The comments that WTKTT transposed to this site make me believe that David Kelly would have much important and valuable facts and insights to add to this ongoing discussion about the Yarnell incident. He certainly would be welcome to post here and he sounds like no clown.
On the bright side we did not have a wild fire here–the former dense growth of grass has been eaten down by the local Rancher’s cattle herd. His black Angus Bull got into my little 4 acre plot and took good advantage of my 750 gallong metal water tank–He did not mind a close up photo and posed for it within 5 foot of his water suction. He spent the day inside mowing the greener grass inside my fenced acres. I named him Geronimo. The dogs at first did not tolerate his presence but he gave them no respect so they decided with my admonishment to leave him alone.
He finally was on his way out just as I was returning from a 6 mile hike–yes I have been working up my distance gradually.. Anyway there was another bull just outside the fence and I think a pal to Geronimo, reason he was going out to meet the other. It gave me a chance to close the gate cause I think Geronimo was going to round up his cows to bring them back with him.
So I did find a nice meteorite and some shards of pottery and chippings. That pottery shard was black and white painted nicely on the inside of a pot or bowl –and I recognized it as Mimbres pottery. They were the only ones that did paint the insides of their pottery in this area so that dates it back to more than 900 years ago. The Apaches roamed here as well but only a 100-maybe 300 years ago.
Gary hasn’t posted lately–miss his posts they are always good. I was going to ask him if it is illegal to pick up a pottery shard–I did take photos but I think that is still legal to do. I do understand picking up arrowheads and other artifacts is strictly illegal. The Indian stuff is not my thing but I do find it interesting that not only did Geronimo and his tribe frequent my area but also people from a thousand years ago when Buffalo, deer and antelope were plentiful and fences and black angus were yet to replace them. So Gary was on my mind and maybe the sheik of Geronimo was following me–I made it back alive but maybe barely.
I think the fact that we are all deeply saddened by the deaths of all the GMHS crew has changed our view of life much. Because Joy and I were there and so close to the action and observing them and their work it makes us appreciate how frail this life can be and how much each day means in this strange world of do or die. I have literally been slowed down and am in slow motion– It is hard to describe the changes made by the Yarnell experience, yet it has had much effect on my person–not good yet perhaps tolerable.
And maybe our constant hammering at the falsehoods, redactions, mum orders, and cover ups has helped us cope. Truth must prevail in this case.
And the clown thing–my son Ted, the underwater welder, now deceased used to dress up as a clown–hand out helium filled ballons to kids and take donations for something in High School. He was School President of the Student body elected the three years in a row that he ran. But I know for a fact my son was of kind heart–one person I miss–he was one to give you his coat if you asked==well I know for a fact you did not have to ask since he had done that very thing on occasion to the homeless on cold days–and his sleeping bag along with the coat.
Life is so short for some of the best–maybe the Irish Gods had some business they wanted him to do. I hope to see him again, not only in my dreams but in the Spirit world. I have had great dreams of him but also horrible nightmares of trying to put his dismembered body back together with no success–a gut wrenching ordeal. And these are recent dreams and nightmares–He died the last of August, 1999. So you see the terror and grief of loosing a son never goes away–It is a torture that you can not completely rid yourself of–most especially if you never got a resolution of the full truth. That is why I chastise Donut–to withhold from the loved ones what you really know is most unjust–to me worse than the crimes he did to get him in prison. I know the heartbreak of having lost a loved one and not knowing the full story.
WantsToKnowTheTruth, You just had to post the link to that interview, and I just had to watch. Made my stomach turn for so many reasons.
I remember that day when this video came out- I had just spent most of that day with Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman’s friends: Holly Neill, Eric Marsh’s best friend Alan Sinclair, Deanna Thompson (Fire20+), Fred Thompson, Jim Roth and his lady and Michael Kodas on a hike to show one of the angles from anonymous “scared” homeowners locations where they took the photo June 30, 2013 (Sesame to Shrine Corridor) and in that hike Holly Neill spoke at low decibel to Alan Sinclair but what they both failed to understand at that point because of the January 2014 article and Charlie Moseley’s sharing to me about how to handle myself around certain people – Holly at that phase was categorized as “caution” so that was a recorded hike (low decibel or not) so I remember a lot of it yet one day when I find that “needle in the haystack” audio I will re-listen to it and figure how this ties in to this video insert – yet I do remember HOW MUCH and HOW DEEP my empathy I had when I watched this video for Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman June 30, 2014- never imagining the local FFs texting me how Chief Ben Palm was looking for some way to have the hikers arrested and we never knew anything about this Chief (documented well) but I knew I would become to learn who he is when a fellow prior student along with Chief Ben Palm who was at my home stated this man was SHOCKED Ben was a Chief as he played video games with him and truly he was in shock as he saw all my research on his old student gaming pal….never did I imagine that the error misunderstanding with K. Lewis and NY Times warning a journalist about her communications with the widow and then the Prescott radio guy telling me he was having concerns to than months later I ended up being served that injunction for harassment….I want her in this video to “clarify” what “misinformation” is out there versus “generals” because it is plain and simple- Eric lied on his applications and Eric is not who the aftermath has presented…I get the emotional layers yet let us stick to the facts please…and get to “why” the men died …
The men were safe in the black and her explanation knowing what is not yet out in the public but so many know- they all were like ????
I will always forever appreciate the courage for this video link and her making it because only few knew that the week before the YH Fire Amanda was in the local papers for another remembrance of a childhood trauma of hers so I always felt the emotion and yet until the day she sits with me and see the many layers and stop the paths I have seen towards me – I am doing everything I can for the kids who cannot right now but one day will be grown up- You do not see me orchestrating legacies of heroism from this tragedy and I have refused some high up folks’ offers for books and movies because God is in charge and I know in His time it will come out in the way He wants not me…
Bill-
I want you to try blueberries for that really helps upset stomach feelings yet remember how courageous it was for Amanda to do this video- this is not a story about Eric or his death or the lives left behind but discussing the Fire Orders and know there has not yet been one Fire Fatality following all the orders…
National Heroes would be men who saved the lives of those they were responsible for – while adhering to the Principle of their Supervisory Responsibility to ensure the safety and welfare of those they supervise; and one of the key ways to do that is to adhere to LCES, and the 10 and 18.
Joy,
I was eating blueberries when I read this. lol.
You are right, it was courageous for her to do and I admire that. but that doesn’t change the B.S. coming out of her mouth. Lightning… smmmsh.
Reply to bill post on September 20, 2019 at 12:10 pm
>> bill said…
>>
>> WantsToKnowTheTruth, You just had to post the link to that interview,
>> and I just had to watch. Made my stomach turn for so many reasons.
I hear ya.
The point was to show that this “David Kelley” person has posted publicly about the Yarnell incident before… but it wouldn’t have made much sense without the CONTEXT of WHERE he was posting… which was at the bottom of that Amanda Lohman ( formerly Mrs. Eric Marsh ) June 30, 2014 video interview.
And yea… that particular video interview remains ‘infamous’ for any number of reasons.
Never before has the industry had to watch family members of a tragic event work out their own PTSD in such a public manner.
Such is the “new age” of social media and “emotional verbosity”.
Lohman / Marsh has insisted on maintaining a very PUBLIC presence ever since the tragedy… but she has never been asked to explain statements like this…
“There’s a LOT of information out there that the public does NOT know.”
Okay. Fine. Whatever.
Simple solution there.
Just TELL us… and then we WILL know.
Problem solved.
Sonny- this man on John Dougherty’s YOUTUBE video on us said some stuff on you and letting you know:
https://youtu.be/JA0njuVjD2c
Yarnell Hill Hikers Part I
4,896 views
and h tt p s ://youtu.be/qSaQ8A9UeWk
Yarnell Hill Hikers Part II
4,681 views
David Kelley Stated:
David Kelley
9 months ago
Sonny and Joy? Two clowns that know nothing
——————-
David Kelley
10 months ago
Joy knows nothing. The story isnt about you. We know what happened and we don’t need your nonsense explanation. Give it a rest already clown.
——————————–
David Kelley
10 months ago
Sonny and Joy. Always looking for attention. You know nothing. You are not experts.
——————————–
David Kelley
10 months ago (edited)
Its all about Sonny and Joy. Celebrity wantabees. Dont spread poison Joy. It does nobody any good. We know what happened. Spare the families your hyperbole.
————————————-
this was placed on both video comment areas:
David Kelley
10 months ago (edited)
Its all about Sonny and Joy. Celebrity wantabees. Dont spread poison Joy. It does nobody any good. We know what happened. Spare the families your hyperbole.
David Kelly-another supporter of the Yarnell fables. You can recognize them by their remarks. And you can bet he is in bed with the likes of Amanda, Willis, and anyone supporting the fantasy perpetrated by the SAIR report and backed by those that would support the worst wild land fire fighting management ever. However truth will win–and I don’t give a shit what he thinks–I know who I am and could care less about being in the lime light.
However, I have seen enough of the falsehoods present and backed by such as this David Kelly, et. al., that I realize the delusions he and others abide in. You can only pity such for some can not handle the truth.
Hey Sonny-
do you think that some just are unable to open that door to truths – like the heaviness is just too much to handle … ??? I think of the SAIT SAIR conference ( Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation Press Conference Part IV Sept. 28, 2013 https://youtu.be/iI_FmXQFHsc ) and the pure confidence and realisms of one of the Turbyfill family members when she said “keep the line of communication open …” listen to 6:29, I felt the sincerity and yet to this date that lady was never shown that respect yet publicly to show her that true line of communication …
Sonny … none of us want to be bullshitted not the family members and not you and I – the YH Fire eyewitnesses. We know what we saw and went through and the lack of line of communications … it has not been an easy path but we remain the course.
I am heading offline due to rolling thunder noises but yeah David does not get the whole package but because he said what he did – he may of been in the crucial areas so just another record to pull –
Thanks David.
————————————
I have had emails asking to “give us more” while my blog is down…I am going thru health stuff and the only thing I am taking time out for is to “clean up” my emails not reply to any as the investigation happens for my site and I will do the DC thing over when I get the clearance why it happened and it is safe again to rebuild it. Someone does not want the data out.
I do not know who David Kelly is–firefighter, loved one, citizen, friend or fiend? You are correct–some want to stuff it and go on–let Marsh and Steed be heroes and let the reports and managers of the Yarnell fire continue as good examples of how wild land fire fighting and investigations be. But they were not Poor management practices with the abbreviated investigations, then redactions, mum orders, cover ups and blatant lies stink to high heave. Nineteen young men died in that wild land fire. It is obvious to even the clowns, whomever that might include among the perpetrators and others buying the lies, that this was only an attempt to maintain reputations–a terrible thing to do considering the magnitude and seriousness of the situation.
Joy, I have done little except to observe the efforts of you and many others here on Investigative media. There are many professionals that post here–those are the ones that deserve the credit and notoriety if there is any. Most if not all either shun being in the limelight or could care less. However, your efforts had to be publicized and you have been one of the major players in revealing the truths involved in this.
Your photographs show the terrain exactly where those men died on the very morning before they drew their last breaths. Your many other photos of that day show vital information, the old grader as it was, Donut’s location before burning, the location of the GMHS vehicles, and on and on. Your vigilant and constant investigation, requesting of numbers of FOIA reports, talking to people involved, seeking out additional photos and evidence, trips and even attending conferences as far as Washing DC with many other things you have done including becoming a qualified fire fighter are to the point of obsession. But that obsession has only added to getting at the truth of what killed those men–something that many do not want public. To label you as a clown is absurd and laughable–the clown would be the one attempting to disparage your work.
We may err in some of our estimations but the purpose and direction is proper and good. I dare say Mr. Kelly would not call Gary, RTS, WTKTT, Woodsman, Norb, Dr. Ted Putnam, John Daughterty, or any of those that post here with years of experience in the wild land fire fighting field or in investigations.
What has he done to further the truth? Who might he be–those are things I will not bother myself with–perhaps you have. I would suspect he like Willis would have been a good witness for Amanda at the Kangaroo court held in Prescott.
Heaviness yes concerning the loss of a loved one, especially a parent loosing a son or daughter. I know that by experience and that is something that weighs heavy for the rest of your life.
Your photos will remain forever as the reality of the GMHS tragedy. The last hike of the GMHS you took and the conditions and locations you took all that day will always be revelations of facts that can not be denied. They are part of the story necessary to understand the tragedy.
The information you present has helped me greatly to understand the tragedy. The many professionals with wild land fire fighting expertise have been able to use your information to help their understanding and investigations as to why such a tragedy could ever occur in wild land fire fighting. The loved ones will all come to appreciate the truth once it is fully known. Those young men did not deserve the careless way they were killed and this incident should never have been treated as an accident.
Certain the magnitude of error in killing those young heroes will continue to be followed until truth prevails causing the changes needed to prevent this type tragedy and the attending cover up.
In the interest of truth and public concern I can only applaud the efforts and on going concern and investigations as seen on Investigative Media. Joy has been a front runner but there are many others here to be appreciated as well.
Those comments by David Kelly were some months ago. I would invite him to comment here on Investigative Media–people here are always open to discussion and opinion and especially should he have some facts to add to the ongoing investigation concerning the Yarnell incident of June 30, 2013 that resulted in the deaths of 19 GMHS.
We won’t accuse him of being a wannabe limelighter by voicing what he thinks. I can take flack–have been there and done that–so if it would make him feel better to vent on me that is fine. I have no hard feelings against anyone –especially the loved ones who certainly have suffered their share. However the truth to what happened is the only thing that really matters even if it is harsh on a few that failed in their efforts to protect their crew–whose negligent actions I believe were the prime cause of their crew’s deaths.
When the full truth is out it will disparage a few but in the long run it will benefit many. The dead can not speak for themselves and only the evidence and the hard facts can speak for their needless deaths.
Apologies, again my many errors without proof reading–simply said, poor management, scanty investigation and Joy and others here are not clowns–but Kelly has his opinions–maybe he ought to look in the mirror to see what is looking back at him.
Joy—Something you said about the New York Times saying that GMHS had been down to the Glen Isla area working line–flyover photographs? We have seen few of those and especially near the time of the deaths. Whew, if that is a fact then they returned up that canyon does not make sense but photos won’t lie and if in fact there are photos of them at Glen Isla why did NYT not publish them?
Seems that NYT thing is speculation but perhaps someone was near Glen Isla doing a line and perhaps a burn as well. Damn, it would be great if some of these wild land fire fighters involved would come forward here and let us know more–do the WTKTT thing and remain anonymous if you prefer–let the pros here determine if what you say has credence–just don’t be gutless, this information is vital to the loved ones, to the public and is really your duty and respect to human decency to get the truth out even if it requires anonymity.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&preview=20130630_160204.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Wtktt or RTS-
could you help me with a homeowner’s account and I think this photo of Brendan helps to set the moment at the time attached to this photo says June 30, 2013 4:02PM.
then to explain to this homeowner using this photo to help them understand the smoke is way out in the distance as shown here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACBq97DC_WBHNu7MeMwj7TOa/Photos%20and%20Video/Christopher%20MacKenzie%20cell%20phone%20photos?dl=0&preview=IMG_2737.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&preview=20130630_160206.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
another picture of the smoke from Donut’s file.
I am going through old emails because I have to wait for the site to investigate what happened to my site for the official report sooooo I am trying to show public photos only not private ones so you anonymous folks are okay I am not resorting there just want to place emphasis on what’s out there not the stuff not yet out there so can we say Donut’s pics match the fire behavior and smoke that matches the MacKenzie pics out past the Shrine Old Grader areas and not near your home, homeowners and yes some of you are going to say “come on, Joy … we showed you our stuff so how can you even write all this … what Joy??? … you saw it …”
KEEP IN MIND HOMEOWNERS until YOU SIGN A RELEASE to me your photos are just THAT “behind the scenes” and so I need to keep it as “shelved” information until you sign off permissions. Your accounts matter yet they matter “public” so we all can properly assess information and especially those near crucial areas. So let the world answer you about Donut’s photos versus me. I am going through old emails and if I see something the world can assist with than I will post it.
3957 Sunday, June 30, 2013, 4:35:06 PM
Thomas Woodley Records Request 9-10-14\A08-20130630BlueRidgeHotshotPhotosVideos\Yarnell-Wardemups
I really want to see what the public views in my records this photo again that was taken and where they assume it lays out there on the spur roads of that area?
Figure 27 on this link:
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/07/22/Are-these-numerous-up-to-now-unrevealed-photos-audio-and-videos-posted-here-sufficient-evidence-to-answer-whether-there-was-a-Firing-Operation-on-the-afternoon-of-June-30-2013-in-the-Sesame-Street-and-Shrine-area-that-influenced-YH-Fire-structure-loss-and-the-GMHS-fatalities
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/07/17/Was-the-June-30-2013-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-As-Tragic-As-It-Was-Trying-To-Teach-Us-Something-Other-Than-Lessons-Learned
in the link above,
Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 9:03 PM, a private discussion I was having led to a return reply:
“The ‘yellow sightline’ goes right down Lakewood, and then right over that ‘pile of rocks’ that
is clearly visible down the street there… and then it continues on all way out to the Weaver Ridge.
The FIRELINES seen through the ‘smoke’ are out there in that ‘middle bowl’, and advancing towards Glen Ilah.
Keep in mind that 4:08 PM would have ( supposedly ) been 4 minutes AFTER the Granite Mountain
Hotshots left the ‘safe black’… and they were already walking SOUTH towards the box canyon.”
and On Jul 16, 2018 8:07 PM:
“Zoom in on the smoke.
You can see FLAMES and FIRELINES through the smoke.
I’m looking more closely at that right now and determing exactly where those visible FIRELINES were, at 4:08 PM.”
——————-
The green fence posts on left IS retired deceased fire chief Pete Andersen’s old home 23186 S Lakewood Dr
———————————–
We have been recently trying to figure out how to bridge sensitive accounts to what is out there and these homeowners want you RTS and WTKTT’s take on the times and photos on that link and can you state or help them understand the fire behavior they saw in front of them to help time stamp what moments later destroyed their lives and as well nineteen mens … just sharing on behalf of some homeowners from old emails so at least I did that when I failed to do it when I first got it – was lost in SPAM box.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on September 14, 2019 at 8:04 am
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> Wtktt or RTS-
>>
>> could you help me with a homeowner’s account and I think this photo of
>> Brendan helps to set the moment at the time attached to this photo
>> says June 30, 2013 4:02PM.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&preview=20130630_160204.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Just to let you know… I am not ignoring this request.
I’m taking “another look” myself at those 3 McDonough photos that he took looking west from Highway 89 at exactly 4:02 PM on June 30, 2013.
But for now… YES… the timestamps on all the photos that Brendan took with his network-connected Samsung smartphone can definitely be trusted.
He took those three photos looking WEST out the window of the GM Superintendent truck all within 2 seconds of each other.
One at 4:02:04 PM
One at 4:02:06 PM
One at 4:02:08 PM
More later.
I have not been able to get on here.
My site is still “under advanced legal investigation” and they said the content may have to be taken off and made new –
just waiting
yes, the entire site so just waiting and I was told to not work on “drafts” currently so going through old emails and noted the video in this link:
h t t p :// archive.nytimes.c o m/w w w.nytimes. c o m/2013/07/07/us/a-painful-mix-of-fire-wind-and-questions.html
there is other “burn scars” out there but please take a look at this photo:
“A July 3 aerial view of the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill fire, which claimed the men’s lives. Fire retardant, seen as a reddish line visible on the right, helped protect parts of the town.”
pay attention of the unburned fuel gap and where …
———————————————————————————-
inquiry to Yarnell Video you made
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 8:23 AM
From: Arizona.Desert.Walker Arizona.Desert.Walker@ protonmail. c om
To: [email protected] jeremy@ blueshirt. c om
h t t p ://archive.nytimes.c o m/www.nytimes.c o m/2013/07/07/us/a-painful-mix-of-fire-wind-and-questions.html
Good Morning Jeremy.
Your ‘flyover’ graphic originally accompanied your NYT article about Yarnell that ran on July 6, 2013, just 6 days after the tragedy ( when there was still little to no information available about what happened ).
Would you please explain why NYT came to the conclusions that the GMHS were at the BSR (Helms) and then went to the Deployment Site as shown in the video insert.
This is contrary to what the SAIT-SAIR concluded.
In the original July 6, 2013, NYT article… right above the embedded ‘flyover video’…NYT authors wrote the following…
“As the thunderstorm approached, the men were digging a trench near the Glen Ilah subdivision southwest of Yarnell, trying to protect its homes.”
Did you and your reporters talk to someone we haven’t talked to yet? Do you all know something we don’t?
How could NYT print that unless they had some evidence that’s what GM was doing? Re-look that video and its insert where you said the men were at and headed …
Sincerely,
YH Fire Eyewitness
Joy A. Collura
—————–
also recently Tex and I were asked to do an episode of the Weather Channel HEROES AND SURVIVORS and as well Sonny was separately recently asked to do a documentary from another country.and I want the Weather Channel to really focus to taking a look at Forensic Weather ( not just in our neck of the woods – expand your horizons please ) Satellite images in the link above please take the time out and compare it to other entities data.
My site is still “under advanced legal investigation” and they said the content may have to be taken off and made new –
just waiting
yes, the entire site so just waiting and I was told to not work on “drafts” currently so going through old emails and noted the video in this link:
h t t p :// archive.nytimes.c o m/w w w.nytimes. c o m/2013/07/07/us/a-painful-mix-of-fire-wind-and-questions.html
there is other “burn scars” out there but please take a look at this photo:
“A July 3 aerial view of the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill fire, which claimed the men’s lives. Fire retardant, seen as a reddish line visible on the right, helped protect parts of the town.”
pay attention of the unburned fuel gap and where …
———————————————————————————-
inquiry to Yarnell Video you made
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 8:23 AM
From: Arizona.Desert.Walker Arizona.Desert.Walker@ protonmail. c om
To: [email protected] jeremy@ blueshirt. c om
h t t p ://archive.nytimes.c o m/www.nytimes.c o m/2013/07/07/us/a-painful-mix-of-fire-wind-and-questions.html
Good Morning Jeremy.
Your ‘flyover’ graphic originally accompanied your NYT article about Yarnell that ran on July 6, 2013, just 6 days after the tragedy ( when there was still little to no information available about what happened ).
Would you please explain why NYT came to the conclusions that the GMHS were at the BSR (Helms) and then went to the Deployment Site as shown in the video insert.
This is contrary to what the SAIT-SAIR concluded.
In the original July 6, 2013, NYT article… right above the embedded ‘flyover video’…NYT authors wrote the following…
“As the thunderstorm approached, the men were digging a trench near the Glen Ilah subdivision southwest of Yarnell, trying to protect its homes.”
Did you and your reporters talk to someone we haven’t talked to yet? Do you all know something we don’t?
How could NYT print that unless they had some evidence that’s what GM was doing? Re-look that video and its insert where you said the men were at and headed …
Sincerely,
YH Fire Eyewitness
Joy A. Collura
—————–
also recently Tex and I were asked to do an episode of the Weather Channel HEROES AND SURVIVORS and as well Sonny was separately recently asked to do a documentary from another country.and I want the Weather Channel to really focus to taking a look at Forensic Weather ( not just in our neck of the woods – expand your horizons please ) Satellite images in the link above please take the time out and compare it to other entities data.
**
** CAL FIRE BEING SUED OVER MATTHEW BURCHETT’S DEATH
It’s been just 1 year and 1 month since Draper City, Utah firefighter Matthew Burchett was killed ( on August 13, 2018 ) by a botched retardant drop at last year’s Mendocino Complex Fire in California.
Today, his widow and his son have jointly filed a wrongful death lawsuit against CAL FIRE and others.
Their wrongful death lawsuit seeks both financial and non-financial compensation/results.
Amounts are to be determined at trial.
The Salt Lake City Tribune
Article Title: Utah firefighter’s widow sues over California fire death
Published: Thursday, September 12, 2019 – By Taylor Stevens
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/09/12/utah-firefighters-widow/
From that article…
————————————————————————————————————
The widow of a Utah firefighter who was killed when a supertanker dropped nearly 20,000 gallons of fire retardant near his position fighting a Northern California fire has filed a lawsuit against CAL FIRE and the aircraft company for alleged negligence.
State investigators found 42-year-old battalion chief Matthew Burchett, of Draper, died last August when fire retardant was dropped from an aircraft flying barely above the treetops because spotters mistakenly sent it on a route too close to the ground.
The retardant, dropped from a Boeing 747 mistakenly flying only 100 feet overhead, struck with such force it uprooted an 87-foot tree that fell on Burchett. The pilots had failed to recognize that there was a hill in the flight path, according to a report by The Associated Press detailing the findings of the Green Sheet report by the state’s firefighting agency.
Burchett, who was one of one of about 40 Utah firefighters from seven agencies deployed to help a state facing the most intense wildfires in the nation, died later at Ukiah Valley Medical Center.
The Draper resident had years of experience with wildfires, beginning to work seasonally with the Unified Fire Authority’s wildland division in 1995 after he graduated from Judge Memorial High School the year before.
He eventually became a full-time firefighter with Unified Fire and reached the rank of captain. He responded to house fires and medical emergencies like every city firefighter but also continued battling wildfires. He’d traveled to blazes in California twice before, in 2009 and 2016.
The lawsuit, filed Wednesday by Heather Burchett, the firefighter’s widow, and Griffin Burchett, his son, says Burchett was in a “safe zone” when the retardant was dropped.
The defendants failed to properly warn or protect ground forces, including Burchett, from the “unreasonably hazardous conditions,” the lawsuit alleges, and improperly executed the retardant drop, thereby breaching their owed “duties of care.”
The plane and its pilot “had not performed drops in the area and was not familiar with the heavy vegetation and elevation changes along the flight path,” the lawsuit alleges. And the height from which the drop was performed was at “a much lower elevation than the required heights for such retardant drops.”
The plaintiffs are seeking non-economic damages in an amount to be determined at trial, for “the loss of Matthew Burchett’s love, companionship, care, assistance, protection, affection, society, moral support, training, guidance and intimate relations.”
They are also seeking an as-yet undetermined amount in economic damages, including for funeral, burial and litigation expenses as well as a loss of financial support and inheritance.
Cal Fire did not immediately comment on the lawsuit.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
——————————————————————————————————–
Here is a Fire Law Blog link to their lawsuit (Burchett vs. State of California and Supertanker Services. LLC and others)
( http://41af3k34gprx4f6bg12df75i.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2019/09/Burchett-v-Cal-Fire-US_DIS_CAED_2_19cv1812_Exhibit_A_state_court_Complaint.pdf )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 8, 2019 at 9:55 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Here’s a bit more details for you:
First and foremost… thank you ( again ).
These “quotes” you have now posted ( including embedded descriptions like [he started crying again] ) seem to indicate you actually have either audio recordings of actual interviews with these people or perhaps, even written accounts akin to ‘Unit Logs’, or something.
Are a lot of these really ‘straight quotes’ from anything like that… or just a lot of paraphrasing from your own memory of conversations with “them”?
Just curious.
That being said/asked… there are some things in these new “quotes” that just don’t add up or present even more points of confusion.
All I can do is take them one-by-one, I guess.
Unless I screw up the formatting on this one, your “quotes” from these people are all in BOLDFACE below, and my comments ( and typical annoying questions ) are in-between.
And away we go…
>> “‘The closer people got to the Sesame Street and Shrine area…
>> there was a feeling of absolute panic as we pulled out of the area.’
You put an ellipse ( three dots ) in there between the two halves of that sentence. So is it to be read this way?
1. “The closer people got to the Sesame Street and Shrine area…” ( Something happened )
2. “there was a feeling of absolute panic as we pulled out of the area”.
The reason I ask is that, if you ignore the ellipse, the statement seems to imply that ‘they’ were ‘exiting’ the area via the Shrine Youth Camp exit route.
That doesn’t match other statements and it certainly doesn’t match other existing evidence.
I can certainly imagine there was “was a feeling of absolute panic as we pulled out of the area”… however they accomplished that.
But how did “they” ACTUALLY “pull out of the area”?
Via the Shrine Road / Youth Camp exit route?
OR
Via the Sesame Street to Lakewood / Manzanita exit route?
>> One group at the Helms / BSR said that “they could hear everything those guys were saying;
By ‘group’… are you still referring to one of the ‘firing groups’ in this mysterious ‘small Task Force’ that we seem to now be talking about?
You know… either one of the 2 Type 3 Engines and/or the 1 Type 1 Engine?
Or are you referring to some other ‘group’ that was “hearing everything those guys were saying”?
There is NO EVIDENCE of there ever being ANY ‘Type 3’ OR ‘Type 1′ Engines present “at the Helms / BSR”, including the Helms’ Security Camera footage.
Only the Type 6 Engines and crews that were officially part of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Task Force that afternoon.
Is it possible this “group” was simply NEAR the BSR… but never actually AT the BSR?
>> Marsh said that the Ranch isn’t that far from where he thought the guys are now …
Obviously the TIME matters here. Was this, perhaps, part of that 4:16 PM radio exchange where someone actually ASKED Granite Mountain “What’s your status right now”?
SIDENOTE: I would absolutely believe that Eric Marsh was constantly ‘mistaken’ about where Jesse Steed and the rest of the crew were after Marsh ordered them to come down. I have always maintained that Marsh MAY have thought they were makinig much better forward progress than they really were that afternoon. Marsh was out ahead… but he had made his journey alone and I believe he completely misjudged the TIME time it was going to take Jesse and the others to cover the same ground doing the usual Hotshot-single-file thing.
>> …he knew Marsh went down that ridge a few times before those guys had to deploy.”
I have no idea what this means. Which ridge? How many times ‘up and down’? When?
>> Even with strong winds, one firing group said “No spots, … absolute miracle
>> because the wind was howling parallel with the road they were on and
>> every now and then it would gust over the road and throw embers – but no spots …
>> and the engine was going fast and we had a hard time keeping up with it / them.’
“…the wind was howling parallel with the road they were on”.
Which ROAD? Sesame Street?
Any TIMEFRAME for this statement?
If they were having a “hard time keeping up with” the Engine then this would supposedly be after they had started the burnouts and one of the times they would have been walking BEHIND the Engine… yes?
>> The urgency and fear in the eyes of everyone on that road was unnatural in my opinion.
Same question as above. Which ROAD? Sesame Street?
>> It was burning in so fast … ripping right in.
Yes, it was.
And spotting ahead of itself across that ‘middle bowl’ to the point where area ignition started happening.
That’s why even if any of this ‘manual burnout’ stuff turns out to be true it will still remain difficult to prove whether it really mattered at all, or had anything to do with what eventually happened to the 19 GM Hotshots out in the box canyon.
>> We tied into a corner, a bunch of vehicles came out including BRHS and
>> the GMHS buggies … [he started crying again]…he felt much better lighting
>> to the corner of this road, this intersection, and because they saw GMHS rigs
>> and figured they were in them and out of the area.’
These statements just don’t add up ( even if they did make him cry again ).
“Tying into a corner” implies that they were ALREADY doing burnouts… and only THEN happened to witness the BRHS and GMHS vehicles ‘come out’, which also implies that they were AHEAD of such a convoy and saw it “pass by them”.
There are only two places where they could have seen this happen.
1. Somewhere along the Sesame Street route and out through Glen Ilah which the GM / BRHS convoy took as they were originally being ‘moved’ from the Sesame clearing area all the way over to the Shrine Road Youth Camp.
2. Somewhere along the dirt part of Shrine Road as the same GM / BRHS convoy left the Youth Camp and proceeded east on Shrine Road and then south to the Ranch House Restaurant.
As for (1)… ( GM / BRHS Convoy on Sesame Street )
Existing photographic evidence ( Christopher MacKenzie’s iPhone photos and Brendan McDonough’s Samsung SCH-I525 smartphone photos, all with accurate time/date settings ) prove that the GM / BRHS convoy left the Sesame clearing area and headed south on Sesame Street towards Glen Ilah right around 3:55:31 PM. That convoy then arrived all the way over at the Shrine Youth Camp right around 4:08 PM. At 3:55:31 PM, Christopher Mackenzie’s iPhone photo ( the one with the recent crossfade ) shows that there were NO BURNOUTS in progress anywhere in the Sesame Street or Lakewood/Manzanita area(s) at the time that GM / BRHS convoy exited that area. So it’s pretty much impossible that anyone could have been doing burnouts and ‘tying into a corner’ in THAT Sesame Street area and, at the same time, have seen the BR / GMHS convoy “come out” and/or “pass by” them.
As for (2)… ( GM / BRHS Convoy on Shrine Road )
Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s M2U0064 video is the one that captures the GM / BRHS convoy fully exiting from the Shrine Youth Camp and passing by Hulburd’s location in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot. The Blue Ridge Crew Carriers pass his location at exactly 4:33:27 PM. They left the spot where they were staged at the Youth Camp about 60 seconds earlier, at 4:32:27 PM. There is no ‘corner’ between that spot at the Youth Camp and the Shrine of St. Joseph for anyone to have been ‘tying into’ with a burnout while also seeing that convoy “come out”.
So the above statement(s) about them both “tying into a corner” with a burnout AND seeing a GM / BRHS convoy “come out” and/or “pass by” just don’t seem to add up or match other existing evidence.
More information needed to sort this one out.
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to single-post length limits )
( Continued from previous message )…
>> “The fire was gone, half mile or mile away from us within 5-10 minutes
>> of firing, uphill and gone.
Uphill… from WHERE? Still lacking enough actual location information to make any sense of statements like this.
>> “We all staged in our rigs listening to the TAC channels
Again… WHERE?
Once they ( as the quote above states ) ALL exited the area and ALL ended up “staged in our rigs”… WHERE were ( all ) at THAT point?
>> and then we heard the GMHS A/G heard chaos
If it was only AFTER they were ALL (quote) “staged in their rigs” ( somewhere? ) when they heard that final GM and Air-To-Ground “we are deploying” radio exchange captured in one of PNF employee Aaron Hulburd videos, then that means they were definitely NOT doing burnouts “up until the time of the GM burnover”, as has also been reported.
That final “We are deploying” radio exchange took place at 4:39 PM.
Is it possible that THIS is their ‘reference moment’ for the “18 to 20 minutes prior to that” thing for the START of the burnouts?
Since no one really knows the exact moment of the ‘burnover’ itself… perhaps they are just using that final radio exchange as their ‘base reference’ time?
If so… that would put the ( supposed ) START of the burnouts back even earlier in time to somewhere around/between 4:19 and 4:21 PM.
>> “The entire [Engine] Crew, including our Captain, felt like there
>> was no air in the Engine, like we couldn’t breathe.
>> Our Captain said he felt like he was gonna have a panic attack.
>>
>> The FF heard his Captain say: ‘We just f**king killed people.’
Something about these statements just doesn’t make sense.
Stick with me here for a moment.
If these FFs had NO IDEA where Granite Mountain even was circa the time they started doing their burnouts, and they had NO IDEA that they had left the safe black and were headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch… then how could they be so SURE ( at 4:39 PM when they simply heard GM’s deployment radio traffic ) that anything they just did had anything to do with what now seemed to be happening to GM, somewhere ‘out there’ on the fire?
Even after that ( final ) radio exchange… that remained the conundrum.
WHERE WAS Granite Mountain, at that moment?
WHERE were they actually ‘deploying’?
NO ONE seemed to have ANY real idea, even after that final radio exchange.
Even in his final radio transmission, Eric Marsh remained his usual ‘obtuse’ self and didn’t even clarify GM’s actual location. Marsh had already had at least 30+ seconds of solid radio exchange time with Air Attack John Burfield to make it CLEAR where they actually were… but Marsh still NEGLECTED to do that.
In that very, very final exchange… when even John Burfiend was TRYING to get an ACTUAL location out of Marsh and asked him “So you are on the south side of the fire, then?”… Marsh missed even that final opportunity to quickly say something like “600 yards west of Boulder Springs Ranch”… and all he said was the non-helpful “Affirm”.
So even though they might have heard Marsh simply ‘confirm’ that GM was somewhere on the SOUTH side of the fire at the time of that last transmission… that still wasn’t really any reason for them to immediately believe whatever they had been doing had anything to do with GM’s predicament ( at 4:39 PM ).
At least not sure enough for ANY of them to declare ( with certainty ) “We just f**king killed people.”
Is it possible the statements above are just sort of a ‘jumble’ of recollections, and it was sometime well AFTER they might have heard that final GM radio transmission that this Captain might have declared ( to his crew ) “We just f**king killed people.”?
You know… like a few hours later… when it started to become common knowledge at the scene WHERE the deployment site really was?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I agree with you here on this one: “There are times when it really almost
>> seems like this was the first fire that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and/or
>> all of the GM Hotshots had ever been on… and it’s almost like they
>> ( collectively ) had NO IDEA what COULD happen… and so they were not
>> even taking the minimum actions necessary to even stay SAFE that day.”
>>
>> It’s as if Watch Out #4 (Unfamiliar with local factors influencing
>> weather and fire behavior) was firmly in place with a local Crew in
>> their own turf. It continues to baffle me …
Me as well.
I think you caught it… but just to be clear… what I was referring to when I said that it seems like they ( Marsh, Steed, +GM ) had “NO IDEA what COULD happen”, I wasn’t just referring to “what could happen” if/when you violate the rules of your profession and you “lose sight of the main fire” at the height of the burn cycle.
I was ALSO talking about how they ( Marsh, Steed, + GM ) SHOULD have been fully aware ( if they had any fires-near-towns experience at all ) that given the circumstances at that time… ALL of the structure protection people and/or freelancing FFs down around town WOULD be ‘freaking out’ and perhaps doing some crazy things… like “lighting shit up” all over the place on the outskirts of town in multiple ‘last-ditch efforts’ to protect structures.
Because that’s what they do. Especially when they are ‘freaking out’.
They ( Marsh, Steed +GM ) SHOULD have known that was another thing that “COULD happen” as they embarked on that risky move that day.
So for Marsh and Steed to have NOT taken EXTRA CARE to make SURE everyone who was anywhere near their intended destination knew EXACTLY where they were and what they were doing and what their ‘escape route’ really was in order to prevent a disaster that day just seems like the height of either no-experience… stupidity… or BOTH.
Death is no stranger to the wild land fire fighter, the miner and the logger. I have seen it a number of times in the years of my mining, I have seen it up close and mangled bodies at that, but I have never seen it like it happened at Yarnell to so many at once. That the facts of the Yarnell incident have yet to be completely known and understood is beyond understanding considering the magnitude and significance to the healing delayed to the loved ones and the importance to the safety of the future young wild land fire fighter.
It does sound as though there was a burn along Sesame Street and with the winds as they were and the denseness of the brush along with the dehydration and heat of the day any burn would move even faster than what Willis had stated as 11mph. In all truth, even a burn out at the Shrine could require less than 6 minutes to reach the Helms Ranch. And if one were started on Sesame Street it would be even quicker to spread toward the Helms and cut off the canyon that the GMHS crew were in. Consider it is somewhere in the neighborhood of only a mile or less from the Sesame Street dirt road to the Helms. Even at the stated 11mph movement of the fire if you want to believe it was that slow– the time to make a mile at that rate is only 5.45 minutes. If you are talking about a 30 minute time frame then those reports make sense.
What does not make sense is that the GMHS crew had even been ordered into a trap where such could happen. Certainly the Captain who was in charge of that burn would only know he had trapped those men after he learned too late of their location. As far as we know Marsh was giving vague descriptions of his location, and what seems to be the official reports if they can be believed–Marsh was giving the impression he was in the black?
I can say what Joy and I were witnessing even when the fire was moving to the Northeast toward Peeples Valley, it was trucking–and that was with little breeze and mostly by its own force. But add a 30-45 mph wind behind it and take it up a canyon where the slope is at anywhere from 10 to 20 degrees off level and add the chimney effect in that dehydrated and hot dense brush and you could see how five minutes could easily come down to 2 or 3 minutes in a mile. So any burn either on Sesame or at the Shrine would be a killer in any 30 minute time frame.
Yes and then we see the Forest Service training 21 year olds to be bosses of 20 men crews? The idea to me is unreal considering that a man in his mid 40’s had no concept of keeping his crew safe due to his limited was it 5 year experience as a wild land fire fighter?
Now I can only see that men of long term understanding should be in charge of the lives of a crew. To put a young man in that position would be an injustice not only to that person but a sure killer to the crew in a situation such as Marsh commandeered. The more we see these deaths in the wild land fire fighting profession, the more it becomes apparent that only those with long proven experience in wild land fire fighting should be there–I would want a RTS, a Woodsman or a Ted Putnam out there for my boss–not some shithead fellow trying to prove himself at the expense of my safety and life.
Death is no stranger to the wild land fire fighter and mostly it is to the young ones that depend on their bosses–and you can see all that book training and conference BS which might be helpful but has no value if it has not long experience to understand the nuances needed to keep the crew alive.
These are my opinions and I own up to them–I have seen too much death and dying in my 75 years–nothing good and especially when you see it needlessly done to the young heroes as we saw at Yarnell.
WTKTT–This story ties in with what I believe one of the few statements where Donut had told the truth about embers crossing the road as they were leaving. It describes what these men are talking about. That burn had to be a secondary burn to the Sesame Street burn and some time before Donut was on his way out with the GMHS Bus. The only possible burn they could have been doing would be off Sesame Street in this description. Since I know that area from hiking it so many times I was trying to understand what corner they were talking about. There is a fence line and corner close to Sesame Street that is part of the Helms Ranch and would be directly below the Ranch. That almost sounds like the corner they are talking about. And the description of going uphill about a half mile in five minutes would agree with what would be the area off Sesame Street dirt path and the area near Helms. A half mile from Sesame Street and that fire is already half way to Helms Ranch Area. Parallel or not to Sesame Street dirt path. as dense as the manzanita was in the area, that fire would take a route of its own to go up hill with the suction of that canyon and the heat vacuum created to advance it that way. The winds were squirrelly as well and you would have to know that those ridges on both sides of the death canyon would direct winds up the canyon even if they were more to the south as they encountered the mountain canyons. If you did visit the Sesame Street area as I had so many times then you could easily understand how a burn on that area would quickly advance up the mountain toward the Ranch and toward the two track above the Helms.
Before Joy and I left the two track we had watched that fire when it was headed in the opposite direction toward Peeples Valley. There was very little detectable wind–the calm before the storm. I asked her to time that fire as it was taking a route toward a mountain. This would be similar to what the fire would do going up toward the Helms only with its own power. I estimated the distance of travel to be about a half mile, likely a bit more from that long distance we were estimating. from where she started timing. It took about 14 minutes and that was on its own power to do that distance. Now with winds pushing it at 35-45 miles per hour and a funnel canyon to draw the fire, one can imagine how quickly that fire would moved up toward the GMHS location.
It stands to reason that their firing may have caught the GMHS crew but why the hell were they there in the first place. Certainly if Marsh were on a ridge then there are only two ridges in that canyon–the south ridge just above the Helms and the North Ridge that projected farther toward Sesame Street than the south ridge. It would stand to reason if he were on any ridge it would have been the South Ridge since that was their destination. Either Ridge was loaded with boulders, although the north ridge had some cleared area at the beginning and near the two track. Marsh would have likely been above the Helms and not too distant from the crew since he deployed with them. He likely had only three to five minutes to approach their location.
This is so damn sad and if you look at Joy’s photographs of that canyon that she took that very morning of their deaths and almost from the exact spot they died you can understand how they had no chance at all once that fire was in the Sesame Street area.
At 11 miles per hour that fire would be moving at a rate of 5.45 minutes to cover one mile. When we left over the mountain from the two track that fire had advanced some five miles or so from Donut’s location by the grader. Once reversed Donut had decided he better head toward the Grader area that he thought might be a safe area– and at that time he was rescued by Blue Ridge Supe. Smoke was bad but fire was not upon them yet so that fire was likely some three miles or so from GMHS area in the death canyon. That would be a 15 or 20 minute window if one could estimate where the GMHS crew was at that time. They may have still been on the two track as Donut escaped.
Somehow it makes sense that since the direction of the fire advance was toward Peeples Valley to the Northeast, there would have been burns set along Sesame Street and in the Shrine area. You would have wanted to burn out those areas to protect Glen Isla, the Helms and Yarnell. What they did not seem to anticipate was that the winds would take a reversal. Any way you look at it, certainly that GMHS crew was screwed over by their bosses that had put them in a situation they should never have been in the first place.
Oddly Joy and I had watched lightening strikes toward Prescott to the NE all morning. The GMHS crew was watching as well. Don’t they know that the storms in the higher elevations will cool the air and that cooled dense air wild then flow to the lower elevations –it was above 100 degrees F in the Yarnell area. That cold air from the NE was due to arrive at any moment and in the gushes it proved to be–35-45 mph when it did. Hillbilly and Cowboy Rick McKensie was their angel messenger when he said early morning when he met the GMHS crew at their rondevois in Peeples Valley. He warned “Boys don’t get caught down in that manzanita” and yet they did.
Those “hillbilly” safety rules are true life savers.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 29, 2019 at 6:54 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT
>>
>> The few WFs and FFs involved are fairly adamant on the “18 to 20 minutes
>> prior to the GMHS Burnover” as their firing operation timeframe.
So what time are these ‘fairly adamant’ people assuming the ‘GMHS Burnover’ was?
Are they basing their “18 to 20 minutes” on the accepted time of 4:42 PM, or something different?
20 minutes backwards from 4:42 PM would, of course, be 4:22 PM.
18 minutes backwards from 4:42 PM would, or course, be 4:24 PM.
So is it safe ( now ) to assume that this supposed firing operation would have begun sometime between 4:22 PM and 4:24 PM?
How long BEFORE that was it when they were supposedly ‘given the order’ to do the operation by some mysterious person? 2 minutes? 3 minutes? 5 minutes? More?
( You know me… details always matter ).
Also… recent IM poster Downhillndirect suggested that this operation continued right up through the time the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots burned to death.
Again, the accepted time for that was 4:42 PM.
To this day, that’s when the “bells are rung” on the anniversaries.
Does that mean, then, that whoever was participating in this burnout operation never exited the area at all and they, themselves, had to actually somehow survive the conflagration out there and, perhaps, perform their OWN ‘deployments’ somewhere out there… or were they able to ‘ride it all out’ without exiting the area in some location on Sesame Street?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I came across this YH Fire SAIT Drop Box link the other day from a
>> thread with you and Rocksteady that should definitely add fodder
>> to the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operations issue.
>> It’s loaded with excellent fire behavior photos in the June 30, 2013,
>> timeframe even though the metadata is really mucked up.
>>
>> This is the “read me.txt. from the Drop Box:
>>
>> “Rick Tham, a local resident, took these June 30, 2013 photos before
>> and while evacuating. Stewart Turner, the Type 1 FBAN on the Yarnell
>> Hill Fire, gave them to the Accident Investigation Team. The file
>> names for most of the photos begin “Yarnell Hill Fire june 28-30 2013.”
>> The earliest photo is stamped 6/29 at 10:28 am and the last is 6/30
>> at 4:59 pm. However, an email to Carrie Templin, member of the Accident
>> Investigation Team, states Tham took them just before and while
>> evacuating, which would have been June 30.”
>>
>> You refer to these two photos: “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 197.jpg”
>> and “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 198.jpg” … “were taken within
>> seconds of each other on the NORTH side of the fire on Sunday, June 30,
>> 2013 at around 3:21 PM”?
>>
>> So then, with non-existent metadata in these photos, I’m curious, how
>> you concluded the date and time on that photo?
>> And what program did you use to do that?
Well… first off… I’m not sure what you mean by “the metadata is really mucked up” and “non-existent metadata in these photos”.
The Rick Tham photos in the SAIT folder were analyzed ages ago and it was determined ( by Marti Reed, Calvin, myself and others ) that the metadata embedded in these photos IS accurate… but with one caveat.
Rick Tham was using TWO cameras on June 30, 2013.
A network-connected iPhone 4S, and a KONICA MINOLTA MAXXUM SD digital camera.
He was alternating between the two cameras most of the day.
The time/date stamps for the network-connected iPhone 4S photos in that folder can all be trusted as 100 percent accurate.
At times… Rick Tham would switch quickly between the iPhone 4S and the KONICA MINOLTA, and it is those times which then proved that his KONICA MINOLTA was, in fact, timestamping photos correctly that day.
But here comes the caveat.
Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA may have had the TIME set correctly… but he had the wrong AM/PM value set. It was set to AM when it should have been PM.
That means that all the timestamps for all of Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA photos ended up EXACTLY 12 hours behind the real time that day.
So that, in turn, made some of the DATE stamps wrong on some of his KONICA MINOLTA phots ( the ones taken before NOON the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013 ).
Example: Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA photo “Yarnell Hill Fire june 28-30 019.JPG” has an embedded time of 23:58:57 ( Supposedly 11:58:57 PM on June 29, 2013 ). It was ACTUALLY taken just 1 minute and 3 seconds before NOON, on June 30, 2013, at exactly 11:58:57 AM that Sunday morning. But since his camera’s AM/PM settings were reversed, the camera DATE-stamped the image as June 29 instead of the real date of June 30.
For all the KONICA MINOLTA photos taken AFTER 12:00 PM NOON on Sunday, June 30, 2013, things get easier.
If the metadata timestamp says 4:31:37 AM… then just flip the AM to PM and that time of 4:31:37 PM is correct.
One of the best examples ( and proof ) that Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA was, in fact, timestamping things correctly but with the AM/PM setting switched would be the following two images of his in that SAIT folder.
At exactly 4:07:56 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… Rick Tham used his KONICA MINOLTA to take a picture of a water bucket drop being made by red/white helicopter 5KA ( 5 Kilo/Alpha ) in the Sickles Ranch Road area. This time matches exactly a video clip taken of the same drop by the AFUE team from their spot on the side of Hays Ranch Road, so that, itself, is additional verification that the KONICA timestamps are correct.
That photo ended up in the SAIT folder with filename: “Yarnell Hill Fire june 28-30 2013 218.JPG”
Rick Tham then QUICKLY switched to his iPhone 4S to take another photo at that exact same time at the exact same location he just took the 4:07:56 PM KONICA MINOLTA photo.
He was able to make this ‘switch’ between his KONICA and his iPhone in just 12 seconds.
That iPhone 4S photo he was able to take just 12 seconds later also ended up in the SAIT folder with filename “110.JPG” and a timestamp of 4:08:08 PM, just 12 seconds after he took the 4:07:56 PM KONICA MINOLTA photo.
So yea… Rick Tham’s KONICA MINOLTA photos’ embedded metadata CAN be trusted.
It’s already been verified against his ‘iPhone’ photo timestamps in the same folder.
All you have to do is remember that he had his AM/PM setting wrong, and the metadata time/date stamps in all the KONICA MINOLTA photos are EXACTLY 12 hours BEHIND the real time.
WTKTT,
Addressing the firing operation(s) questions first and probably less than to your satisfaction.
As I posted, these ‘fairly adamant’ people stated nothing specific about when the ‘GMHS Burnover’ was. As I posted, they said the firing operation was in the “18 to 20 minutes” timeframe. I never asked and they never said about “the accepted time of 4:42 PM, or something different.”
They never said and I never asked if it was “20 minutes backwards from 4:42 PM would, of course, be 4:22 PM.” And they never said and I never asked if it was “18 minutes backwards from 4:42 PM would, or course, be 4:24 PM.”
I find these timeframes to be credible.
Based on what they said, I would think that it “… is … safe ( now ) to assume that this supposed firing operation would have begun sometime” AROUND (not between) “4:22 PM and 4:24 PM.” I wasn’t there, so basing times off anecdotes within the allowable Hearsay Exceptions.
They never said and I never asked “how long BEFORE that was it when they were supposedly ‘given the order’ to do the operation by some mysterious person. 2 minutes? 3 minutes? 5 minutes? More?”
They said the firing operation direction was given by some ‘unidentified WF overhead’ if I recall. This WF was somewhat chastised by a WF colleague for his willing actions under those conditions and he acknowledged that he should have been more discerning. I think he gave some kind of ‘heat of the moment’ response to justify his actions. And no idea on the timeframe.
I wasn’t there, and they never said on WHEN to begin firing, so once again basing times off anecdotes within the allowable Hearsay Exceptions.
Yes indeed … details always matter, however, the details in this case are more ambiguous, more general under the circumstances. And we are just going to have to expect and accept that it’s going to be that way until someone comes forward with something else or some other evidence is discovered.
Yes, “recent IM poster Downhillndirect suggested that this operation continued right up through the time the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots burned to death.” … of which “.. the accepted time for that was 4:42 PM.”
I give little credence to when “the ‘bells are rung’ on the anniversaries.”
The timeframe I use is between then and 4:48 PM.
To me, it means “… that whoever was participating in this burnout operation” clearly “exited the area” as they progressed along with the firing operation(s). There was NO “surviv[ing] the conflagration out there” and NO “perform[ing] their OWN ‘deployments’ somewhere out there” and NO “‘rid[ing] it all out’ without exiting the area in some location on Sesame Street.” These WFs and FFs lit the fire(s) that became the conflagration; and their expressed anxiety and discomfort was fairly evident with the things said regarding the weather and fire behavior conditions as they were burning.
It sounded like a firing operation where your burners progress along burning and your holders – if you have or need them – progress along behind you, holding the line, picking up spot fires, etc. However, in one anecdote, the Engine was placed out in front of the burner(s), which reveals to me their lack of wildland fire experience, or at least firing operations experience.
There certainly are times to have holders out in front, however, you have to have the right weather / fire behavior conditions, the right resources, and the actual need for them.
It’s safe to say that there was no intent to do harm or otherwise ill intent by those WFs and FFs performing the firing operation. However, there was a clear lack of communications from BOTH the GMHS and those performing the firing operation. The negligence was the GMHS supervisors abdicating their required supervisory responsibilities of providing for the safety and welfare of those in their charge.
Everyone “knew” that the GMHS was in the black, in their Safety Zone based on their numerous radio transmissions with overhead and other resources. The firing operation had been discussed over the radio between Crews and OPS and declared not an option by the Crews.
And the GMHS allowed only a few of the Crew supervisors to monitor and talk on the Command, TAC, and A/G channels. Based on previous fire assignments, they were also known to practice the unsafe habit of failing to directly inform their supervisors of their actions, locations(s), intentions, etc.
On the communication issue addressed in both Fire Order #7 and Watch Out #7, there is somewhat of a paradox as well as a watch out within the Watch Outs. Watch Out #7 cautions against having “No communications” with your adjoining forces. Neither the GMHS nor those involved in the firing operation(s) communicated what was occurring with their respective “adjoining forces,” whether it was due to the “fog of war” or (un)intentional, continuation bias, or Inattentional Bias, or whatever it was …
A lot of WFs and FFs AND Supervisors really f**ked up!
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 6, 2019 at 2:07 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Addressing the firing operation(s) questions first and
>> probably less than to your satisfaction.
At this point… ( and in this bizarre game of hide-and-seek )… I’ll take any ‘answers’ I can get.
At least you are willing to respond regarding all this… so THANK YOU. I mean it.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> As I posted, these ‘fairly adamant’ people stated nothing specific
>> about when the ‘GMHS Burnover’ was.
>>
>> As I posted, they said the firing operation was in the “18 to 20 minutes”
>> timeframe. I never asked and they never said about “the accepted
>> time of 4:42 PM, or something different.”
Okay. Thanks.
Maybe the next time you talk to “THEM” you should ask.
It’s important.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> They never said and I never asked “how long BEFORE that was it
>> when they were supposedly ‘given the order’ to do the operation
>> by some mysterious person”
>>
>> They said the firing operation direction was given by some
>> ‘unidentified WF overhead’ if I recall.
Again, thanks.
And again… next time you talk to “THEM”… I would suggest ASKING about this.
Also important.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> This WF was somewhat chastised by a WF colleague for his willing actions
>> under those conditions and he acknowledged that he should have been more
>> discerning.
“should have been more discerning”?
No shit, Sherlock.
Given the fact that 19 men ended up burning to death and it MAY have been partly because of his “willing actions”… that might be the understatement of the year.
It’s a little bigger than just “Oops… my bad!”
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I think he gave some kind of ‘heat of the moment’ response to justify
>> his actions.
I would have thought he might have just fallen back on the standard “fog of war” get-out-of-accountability-free-card explanation… but to each his own.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Yes indeed … details always matter, however, the details in this case are
>> more ambiguous, more general under the circumstances. And we are
>> just going to have to expect and accept that it’s going to be that way
>> until someone comes forward with something else or some other
>> evidence is discovered.
But it also sounds like “THEY” actually MIGHT know some more details and “THEY” just MIGHT be willing to share… but in your various contacts with “THEM” you simply haven’t bothered to ASK them certain things.
Give it a try next time you talk to “THEM”.
They might be perfectly willing to share more details but the are just waiting for someone to ASK “THEM” the right questions.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Yes, “recent IM poster Downhillndirect suggested that this operation
>> continued right up through the time the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots
>> burned to death.” … of which “.. the accepted time for that was 4:42 PM.”
>> I give little credence to when “the ‘bells are rung’ on the anniversaries.”
>> The timeframe I use is between then and 4:48 PM.
See above ( and my original question about ‘burnover’ TIME ).
If YOU give “little credence” to the accepted burnover time of 4:42 PM, then maybe so do “THEY”… and this “18 to 20 minutes prior to that” thing might be based more on ( in your own words ) “between then ( 4:42 PM ) and 4:48 PM”.
Just ask “THEM” next time you talk to “THEM”.
What TIME are “THEY” basing their “18 to 20 minutes prior to that” on?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> To me, it means “… that whoever was participating in this burnout
>> operation” clearly “exited the area” as they progressed along with
>> the firing operation(s).
>>
>> There was
>> NO “surviv[ing] the conflagration out there” and
>> NO “surviv[ing] their OWN deployments somewhere out there” and
>> NO “rid[ing] it all out without exiting the area in some location
>> on Sesame Street.”
Okay. So… if they were laying fire down down even right up until the moment the 19 GM Hotshots were burning to death… but were still ( themselves ) able to make it out of the area…
Then WHERE did they all go ( after that )?
At last count… we are talking about basically a small TASK FORCE consisting of at least 2 Type 3 ( Large ) Engines and another ( Large ) Type 1 Engine.
That’s easily at least a DOZEN firefighters. Perhaps more.
WHERE did they all go once they stopped doing the burnouts?
If you haven’t asked “THEM” that question either ( so far )… give that a shot as well next time you talk to “THEM”. It’s also important to know.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> These WFs and FFs lit the fire(s) that became the conflagration; and
>> their expressed anxiety and discomfort was fairly evident with the
>> things said regarding the weather and fire behavior conditions as
>> they were burning.
What “things said”… “as they were burning”?
Said to WHO? You?… when YOU were talking with “THEM”?
Or said “at the time” to someone in fire command?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It’s safe to say that there was no intent to do harm or
>> otherwise ill intent by those WFs and FFs performing the
>> firing operation. However, there was a clear lack of
>> communications from BOTH the GMHS and those performing
>> the firing operation. The negligence was the GMHS supervisors
>> abdicating their required supervisory responsibilities of
>> providing for the safety and welfare of those in their charge.
I believe I have already said this… but YES… given the circumstances that day… if there was EVER a time when a DIVS ( Eric Marsh ) who was trying to move his only ground resource ( GMHS ) from one division to another at a critical time should have made DOUBLE / TRIPLE sure the “way WAS clear and would REMAIN clear”… and that no nervous nellies in any structure protection group or errant ( perhaps freelancing ) Task Force were going to start “lighting shit up” anywhere near their intended destination… it was THAT afternoon.
There are times when it really almost seems like this was the first fire that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and/or all of the GM Hotshots had ever been on… and it’s almost like they ( collectively ) had NO IDEA what COULD happen… and so they were not even taking the minimum actions necessary to even stay SAFE that day.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> A lot of WFs and FFs AND Supervisors really f**ked up!
Yep.
And according to the offical SAIT investigation report… it’s perfectly OK to ‘fuck up’ just as long as you don’t do anything wrong. Right?
WTKTT,
Here’s a bit more details for you:
“‘The closer people got to the Sesame Street and Shrine area … there was a feeling of absolute panic as we pulled out of the area.’
One group at the Helms / BSR said that “they could hear everything those guys were saying; Marsh said that the Ranch isn’t that far from where he thought the guys are now … he knew Marsh went down that ridge a few times before those guys had to deploy.”
Even with strong winds, one firing group said “No spots, … absolute miracle because the wind was howling parallel with the road they were on and every now and then it would gust over the road and throw embers – but no spots … and the engine was going fast and we had a hard time keeping up with it / them.’
The urgency and fear in the eyes of everyone on that road was unnatural in my opinion. It was burning in so fast … ripping right in. We tied into a corner, a bunch of vehicles came out including BRHS and the GMHS buggies … [he started crying again]. … he felt much better lighting to the corner of this road, this intersection, and because they saw GMHS rigs and figured they were in them and out of the area.’
“The fire was gone, half mile or mile away from us within 5-10 minutes of firing, uphill and gone.
“We all staged in our rigs listening to the TAC channels and then we heard the GMHS A/G heard chaos
“The entire [Engine] Crew, including our Captain, felt like there was no air in the Engine, like we couldn’t breathe.
Our Captain said he felt like he was gonna have a panic attack.
The FF heard his Captain say: ‘We just f**king killed people.’
I agree with you here on this one: “There are times when it really almost seems like this was the first fire that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and/or all of the GM Hotshots had ever been on… and it’s almost like they ( collectively ) had NO IDEA what COULD happen… and so they were not even taking the minimum actions necessary to even stay SAFE that day.”
It’s as if Watch Out #4 (Unfamiliar with local factors influencing weather and fire behavior) was firmly in place with a local Crew in their own turf. It continues to baffle me …
If they were seeing GMHS rigs then they could not have been at the Shrine area–they would have to have been on the Sesame St. dirt path somewhere likely to NW of the rigs seeing them leaving the area then following the rigs out as they burned. Whew, what heavy burden to carry yet necessary to unload so the truth is known. In those winds and conditions it would take only minutes to cut off the GMHS crew from Sesame dirt road.
More must be known to know the true story. Bless those people telling the real truth–a burden no person should carry.
Reply to Charlie post on September 11, 2019 at 1:18 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> If they were seeing GMHS rigs then they could
>> not have been at the Shrine area–they would
>> have to have been on the Sesame St. dirt path
>> somewhere likely to NW of the rigs seeing them
>> leaving the area then following the rigs out as
>> they burned.
Perhaps… but the curious part of the following statement attributed to one of these FF’s is the “a bunch of vehicles came out” part…
Here’s that particular “quote” again…
We tied into a corner, a bunch of vehicles came out including BRHS and the GMHS buggies … [ he started crying again ]…he felt much better lighting to the corner of this road, this intersection, and because they saw GMHS rigs and figured they were in them and out of the area.
So it wasn’t just that they saw the GM and BRHS vehicles leaving the area… like from the NW. and headed AWAY from them. The specific phrase “bunch of vehicles CAME OUT” implies that they were BETWEEN where the vehicles were staged, and where they were headed, and that they saw this convoy PASS BY them. ( sic: COME OUT ).
If that quote is true… then that limits the places they even COULD have been in order to have seen that convoy ( quote ) “come out”.
WTKTT–with your keen observation there it has to mean they were directly below the GMHS crew and almost directly below the Boulder Ranch. Joy has photos of the GMHS Buggy and its location was about a half mile to 3/4 mile up the Sesame Street dirt trail once the pavement is ended. Whew if they did a burn between the location of the GMHS Buggy then under those late conditions it would be under 5 minutes reaching the Helms’ Boulder Ranch and would definitely cut off any possibility of escape for the GMHS other than if they made a quick run to the south and centered themselves in the boulders about 70 yards south of where they deployed. Everything from Sesame Street dirt road to boulder was heavy in manzanita and up hill–a fire line set along that path would go up that chimney canyon and up that side of the Weavers at an alarming rate. I could see the Willis statement of 11 mph if it were coming south since that would be parallel and generally level going that way but going up that Chimney with 30-45mph winds would be likely more in the range of a 25mph advance. No way any hotshot had a chance outrunning that in that dense brush–horror of horrors.
So our President had repealed the clean water act–meaning that farmers which now a days are generally giant corporation entities will be able to use pesticides and the Phos Chek twin fertilizer compounds next to water sources. The results of course will be increased cancer rates and increased dead aquatic life and ocean dead zones.
It also means any measure to address the issues involved in dumping retardant near residences or recognizing any effects of retardant would be thwarted by this White House pollution supporter. Maybe he has not looked at the results of fertilizers, phosphates, and chemicals upon the health of the people, the fauna, the ocean flora, and the environment. He has never looked at fire fighter health issues off the chart from these retardant chemicals and plastics that emit their poisons both from burning and leaching into the soils. He certainly has not looked into the effects on elderly deaths and health of individuals after the massive dumping of retardant around Yarnell–no he judges health of the nation and world by the dollar sign and considers the common man a loser if his income is not in the top 5% of the nation.
Hitler had the same attitude–he raped the environment for his wants and used his people like so many cattle to be put to the slaughter to meet what he believed to be a greater end–the world rule of the superior Germanic blood. So America is now in the same process of the greater end–making America Great again–superior to all nations with its people and environment so many cattle to be used to that end and the environment again used without respect.
Some of us would incline to be more respectful of the health of the nation and its environment and judge it less by its wealth in monetary terms. We indeed need a strong military in these times but this non sense of polluting to foster corporate profits shows a blatant disregard for humanity and the earth. Yet it shows how a slogan can sway the minds of a great part of the masses to allow criminal acts against humanity and the environment.
Fortunately there are a few thinkers and a few who would go against the idea that reputation is everything–they would as in the Yarnell incident challenge those that would hide the truth to further their reputations as men/women who preformed without human error and whose actions can never be challenged and whose errors can never be exposed.
The situation is grim, yet generally people in this country are well enough educated to understand issues that need to be addressed and do not believe truth trumps Trump based ideas concerning pollution and slogans to direct people away from facts.
The heroes in the end will be those you read here on IM and like sites that go after the details and facts of what was and what will be. I could list their names but that is needless–they are simply those willing to go the extra mile to get at what happened and what will happen if facts are not faced.
And of course that should read Truth trump Trump and anything or anyone fostering false ideas. That we all make errors is certain as I just did in my writing without proof reading–The greatest error is when a person, especially a leader can go forward like a god and never admit to his humanity. Hitler, Trump, Mao se Dung, Kim Jong-un, Putin, Castro and the like show that a great majority of today’s leaders consider themselves beyond reproach. It filters down even to lower levels such as we saw with the leaders at the Yarnell fire debacle. And should you look at the leaders of the chemical giants, it is like looking at a who’s who of the nations greedy.
Intelligence has little to do with truth in some circles. Some of the worlds most prolific psychopaths are in the highest IQ ranges. Their cunning keeps them undetected and getting them out from under their blanket of lies is no easy project.
It will always be OK to fuck up as long as it continues to be OK to cover up the fuck up. The habit continues due to fear of exposure and since the blame goes to the higher levels we will continue to see the redactions, mum orders, threats and lies to keep those high level reputations intact.
Thanks RTS and WTKTT for exposing those criminal acts that are bound to cause continuing harm and death to the wild land fire fighter that has his safety almost totally contingent on his superior officers to keep him/her safe.
At the least, these exposures will forewarn the young fire fighter that his safety will almost totally depend upon his own wits, not the expertise of some wannabe wild land fire fighter boss.
Welcome to the new world that I am not much longer to be a witness to. It will be an interesting journey–much more interesting and dangerous than my 75 year journey on this earth has been.
We have come a long way from my tent living as a child where even a transistor radio was a rare thing and although television had come out not long after WW2 and by the early 50’s many homes had TV, I did not see one until after high school graduation in 1961. It was still radio for us and I actually never owned one even after discharge from the Army in 1968. In fact, I finally got one here at Tex’s Ranch–a big sucker–50 incher–$259 at Business Supply. They had the same for up to several thousand dollars but this one does just about everything the expensive ones do and my viewing does not require all the bells and whistles an expert might want.
Who would ever expect I can walk around with a phone in my pocket and anyone with any expertise in electronics can know exactly where I am in the world–how they located me when Charlie shot me in the back with the 12 guage. And I am certain they can hear my conversation even if my phone is off and are able to look at my face right though this 27 inch computer monitor if they so desire. Maybe my disparaging remarks about Trump and his getting rid of the clean water act have me on some sort of list–political enemy number 500,000 or whatever low number I might be assigned. But the Democrats will have me on a good list–yet either way I am an independent and last election it was a no vote on my part. So what attention does one get there? Well I suggest I am not important enough for any attention and I like that idea.
I was able to do a 6 mile hike-3 out and 3 back yesterday –I wanted to see a structure that far away to the south of me. There is no road there so I walked it. It looked to be an adobe casita from here but when I got there it was a cement tank much like the one Joy saved a wild cat from near her home in Congress, Arizona. She threw a log in that dry tank so the cat could climb out. A good heart that lady.
But this dry tank had no water or cat in it either–a few beer cans from times past from people hiking there and some bullet marks in the cement to where someone was trying out a high powered rifle. There was a well casing and pipe broken off and a foundation where years past someone had resided there for a few short years. The trash around told me it was likely in the early 4o’s and later than the abandoned well about two miles east of that tank. There someone had a well and the connector fittings to the wooden succor rod had rusted so badly that part of the flanges were gone. The wood itself had completely rotted away and the brass pins that hold the wood in the fitting were all that was left. I wondered who the cowboys and outlaws that must have visited that place and resided for a time were. Maybe even Billy the Kid or Pat Garrett who by the way was killed by a shot gun ambush on a ranch near Las Cruces, NM –maybe near where I live now. That evidence told me that people had a wooden shack there, likely a cowboy bunk house some hundred years ago and likely abandoned more than 50 years before.
Today we have the most intelligent computers–something I am typing on–that can access information at the speed of light and solve problems as fast. In fact the most intelligent ones have determined that the only solution to saving the earth is to get rid of humans. Their intelligence is beyond our own and soon they will be able to replicate themselves–hopefully we will have shut off valves in place since to their way of thinking we are bad for the earth health. I wonder if they have looked at Trump getting rid of the clean water act–and a prime environmental polluter supporter. He might be on their most wanted list.
So I did make a good 6 mile hike and spotted an Indian knife and a chip where one had made an arrowhead. I left them there–evidence they were here and owned the land before we killed them off and took it–well after the Spaniards and Mexicans had killed what they could of the Apache tribes.
Sadly we had a few bad Irish–one guy named Kelly when Mexicans were paying for Apache scalps was turning in quite a few. The Mexicans quit paying him after a while because he was turning in too many. It was thought he was mistaking Mexicans for Apaches–maybe too much rot gut had messed up his vision and it is hard to tell a Mexican scalp from an Apache scalp.
The world has now entered the world of every thing is known and everything is under control as certain leaders would want it. Soon you will be getting a chip similar to what your dog has–just walk into the grocery store–the scanner will scan your purchase and you and all you do is walk out –the scanner will automatically deduct your purchase from your bank account–no plastic card needed–all your info will be on that chip embedded in you. And when the blue coat stops you for speeding, his scanner will give your records, status, etc and automatically tell you when you need to see the judge or if not deduct your fine right on the spot.
Life will be interesting as progress evolves, we will have mechanical wild land fire fighters and better insulation than the flimsy safety blankets now available. Those expensive robots need good protection for the electronics–and like the future robot warriors–they will be able to endure things a human can not. And this is not imagination–que sera, que sera.
Ha–on todday’s hike I had the new white German Shephard along. She is only 8 months old so learning the country ways. Yesterday’s hike she was barking at a tall mesquite tree that I thought either had a rattle snake under it or some baby crows in the nest up high in the tree. So no snake, I did not inspect the nests and so she followed me off. But today, she was barking toward a prickly pear cactus so I was certain it had to be a snake there. But my inspection found none or in the grass about the cactus. Finally she got up close and I realized she was barking at the cactus itself. They do look like some sort of animal with the mickey mouse ears but once she stuck her nose into the cactus she realized this is a bad creature and backed off. A city dog takes some learnin’ about the ways of the outback and it took a few cactus needles to inform her to leave it be.
I was thinking of the GMHS city fire fighters–damn don’t you think they needed some more wild land fire fighting experience-especially their bosses–know when to fold and know when to hold.
Experience is the ultimate teacher.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 3, 2019 at 4:44 pm
>> RTS said
>>
>> WTF is happening lately with these Hybrid FFs… getting burned over…
WTF indeed.
Regarding what just happened to Okanogan County VFD Assitant Chief Christian Johnson…
Just slightly more than 1 year ago, on August 13, 2018, pretty much the exact SAME thing happened to another volunteer FF with the SAME vounteer fire department under the exact SAME circumstances, and almost in the exact SAME location.
SAME volunteer fire department/district ( Okanogan County VFD – 8th Fire District )
SAME general area ( 2019=Spring-Coulee-Fire 2018=Grass-Valley-Fire-near Coulee Dam )
SAME circumstances ( Brush Truck, 2 crew, 1 burned but 1 able to run away )
SAME Fuel type ( Mostly grass )
SAME Result ( 1 FF seriously burned )
SAME air-evac to SAME burn unit ( Harborview Medical Center )
The Spokesman Review
Article Title: Firefighter injured Saturday in Grass Valley fire in satisfactory condition
Published: Mon., Aug. 13, 2018, 7:54 p.m. – By Jonathan Glover
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/aug/13/firefighter-injured-saturday-in-grass-valley-fire-/
Internet Archive ( Wayback Machine ) link to first capture of that original article…
https://web.archive.org/web/20180814063600/https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/aug/13/firefighter-injured-saturday-in-grass-valley-fire-/
From that August 13, 2018 article…
——————————————————————————————————-
A firefighter injured Saturday in the Grass Valley fire near Grand Coulee Dam was a volunteer from Okanogan County.
Chief Ed Townsend of Okanogan County Fire District 8 identified the man as 38-year-old Brett Read, a volunteer of seven years who lives in Omak with his wife and three children.
Read was burned in the fast-moving fire that quickly swallowed over 70,000 acres of land.
It started 12 miles east of Mansfield and worked its way northeast and up to the edge of the town of Coulee Dam on Saturday.
He was airlifted to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle, where he is listed in satisfactory condition.
Townsend said through a news release posted Sunday by the Department of Natural Resources that Read and another firefighter were attempting to leave their work area near the fire’s origin at the intersection of Highways 17 and 172, when the “fire behavior unexpectedly intensified.”
“Read became separated from the engine he was working on and suffered burns during the incident,” says the news release.
“The second firefighter on Read’s engine was not injured.”
—————————————————————————
In last year’s incident involving the same Okanogan County VFD, FF Brett Read suffered serious burns to his face, hands and upper body. Skin grafts were required but there was no ‘medically induced coma’ required, as is the case with this second ( more serious ) incident involving Okanogan County VFD Assistant Chief Christian Johnson.
WTF is happening lately with these Hybrid FFs, on an Asst. Firer Chief, getting burned over and burned on two separate incidents (CA and WA).
“CA Firefighters Airlifted after Suffering Burns in Vegetation Fire
“It’s unclear how many firefighters were injured in a rural Monterey County fire. Their conditions were not released.
“Sept. 2–Multiple firefighters suffered burn injuries while battling one of two vegetation fires in rural Monterey County on Sunday, officials said. The first fire began before 3 p.m. in the area of Throne Road and Arroyo Seco Road in the town of Greenfield east of Big Sur near Highway 101.”
( burned-in-vegetation-fire?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190902004&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
_____________________________________________________________
“Airlifted WA Firefighter Suffered Burns over 50% of Body
“Okanogan County Assistant Chief Christian Johnson is in a medically induced coma while he’s stabilized for skin graft surgery after battling the Spring Coulee fire Sunday. (Sept. 2, 2019)
“He was injured in the Spring Coulee Fire, which started around 4 p.m. Sunday near B&O Road N between Fletcher Loop Road and Spring Coulee Road, according to the release.”
This one has an expertly done AUV fire perimeter overfly video that reveals the major fuel type as grass, grass, agricultural fields, grass, and more grass. WTF happened here to get these kinds of severe, life threatening burns in this fuel type??
( https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/news/21095162/okanogan-wa-firefighter-airlifted-after-battling-brush-fire )
Trying again on the first link ( https://www.firehouse.com/safety-health/news/21095139/ca-firefighters-burned-in-vegetation-fire?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190902004&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
And it’s UAV and not AUV
A PUBLIC posting that appeared online with a little more detail, including the name of the VERY seriously injured FF…
—————————————————————————————–
We had a recent fire injury in our state. Assistant Chief Christian Johnson’s brush truck was overtaken while he was working the Spring Coulee Fire near Okanogan, Washington. The firefighter he was with outran the flames, but Johnson suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns to 50-60% of his body, as well as damage to his airway. He’s currently in a medically induced coma while they attempt to stabilize him for skin grafts.
——————————————————————————————
From the article at…
https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/news/21095162/okanogan-wa-firefighter airlifted-after-battling-brush-fire
———————————————————————————————–
OKANOGAN, WA—A firefighter was airlifted to Harborview Medical Center on Sunday after sustaining an injury from brush fire near Okanogan.
The firefighter was from Okanogan County Fire District 3, but his name, type of injury and current condition have not been released.
He was treated on the scene by Lifeline Ambulance before being airlifted directly from the scene to Harborview in Seattle on Sunday, according to an Okanogan County Emergency Management press release.
———————————————————————————————–
NOTE: The Harborview Medical Center is the exact same facility that received FF Daniel Lyon Jr. immediately following the August 2015 Twisp Fire incident, which killed the other 3 members of Lyon’s Brush Truck.
They have a VERY good burn unit there.
WTKTT,
There are even more wildland fire burn victims treated there.
“Burn victim plans to fight fires again – Yakima man details his brush with death in Thirtymile blaze
By GORDY HOLT, SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER Published 10:00 pm PDT, Thursday, September 20, 2001
“The fiberglass shelter is a firefighter’s last resort, a last chance against heat so hot it can crack granite.
That awful afternoon, as fire raged into the Chewuch River canyon, firefighter Jason Emhoff placed a foot and hand in each corner of the tiny tent to hold it against the ground and seal off the raging storm outside.
Emhoff, who describes himself as “accident prone,” had forgotten his gloves, and as he lay in the shelter the fire became too intense, particularly for his hands, now frying in the heat.
So he fled into the blazing gale.
“I just took off,” he said yesterday, speaking publicly for the first time since the July 10 fire, which killed four of his Forest Service crewmates.
That he did so rather than stay likely saved Emhoff’s life.
As he broke from his shelter, Emhoff emerged into a dark storm of swirling embers to sprint the 50 to 60 feet downhill to the van that had brought him so close to death.
With the inferno raging around him, he climbed inside and sat, head down, his forearms resting on his thighs. Occasionally he would lift them because his arms were “too hot.”
His hands hung between his knees, useless but without pain. At one point he noticed they were white and that the skin was hanging loose and ragged.. He shook them, and in doing so, he shook off his own skin.
“When you have third-degree burns there is no pain because there’s nothing left,” he said. “It’s all gone.”
On the rocky slope above, Emhoff’s crew was doing what it had been taught to do as firefighters. They stayed in their shelters. No matter what.
As a consequence, crew boss Tom Craven, 30, of Ellensburg; Karen Fitzpatrick, 18; Devin Weaver, 21; and Jessica Johnson, just two weeks shy of her 20th birthday, all died.
Although Emhoff survived the Thirtymile Fire, he was so badly burned that doctors had to insert his left hand under the skin of his abdomen to help it heal.
The 21-year-old Yakima native checked out of Harborview Medical Center’s burn unit last week, and now, he wants to head back to the woods to pick up where he left off as a crew boss trainee.
“I’m getting my old personality back,” he said yesterday. “But I’m still a little grumpy.”
The hand? He held it up and wiggled its fingers. “Complete feeling,” he said.
Wearing logger boots and the blue baseball cap of the Entiat Hotshots firefighter who rescued him, Emhoff sat before microphones with his physical therapist, Beth Costa, Dr. David Heimbach, who directs the Harborview burn unit, and his mother, Jeanne Emhoff of Yakima, who has been at his side daily.
Emhoff suffered burns over 30 percent of his body. His face, ears, neck, arms and legs were burned. But his hands took the heat’s brunt.
After doctors placed his badly burned hand inside his abdomen, the skin’s blood supply encouraged the growth of fatty tissue where there had been none and gave the hand enough tissue to hold a graft.
Enduring the three-week immobilization period that followed, Emhoff said, “was like being in a big splint.”
By Aug. 13, enough tissue had accumulated so that the hand could be removed and skin taken from his back could be grafted to it as well as to other burned areas of his body. At the same time, the small finger of Emhoff’s right hand had to be amputated.
Although a U.S. Forest Service report on what happened in the Chewuch River canyon is pending, a seven-week investigation by the Yakima Herald-Republic published earlier this month concluded that the four firefighters died needlessly because safety rules were not followed and water had not been airlifted to the site.
Emhoff would not comment on the Forest Service’s tactics that fateful day.
But he did say he trusted his crew boss, Craven, implicitly and believed he and his crew were in a safe place as the fire approached..
“We weren’t worried,” he said. “We trusted each other. We knew our boundaries.
“ Then it just happened — so fast. All of a sudden it was like we were in an oven. Someone had shut the door and we were inside. ”
Despite his awful experience, Emhoff said he intends to resume the livelihood he loves best — fighting wildfires in the forest.
*******************************************************
Per usual, LOTS of cover-up, whitewash, and lies on these wildland fire fatalities as well, including NLP-trained “investigators” telling – not asking, but “ telling ” some of the survivors what they saw and heard.
This was similar to the alleged “investigators” telling Joy A. Collura that “Mystery Man” did not exist and that she never saw him talking to GMHS Marsh that morning.
Jason Emhoff–describes himself as accident prone, got into a terrible near death burn situation and is a wild fire crew boss trainee? Good Lord, don’t let one of my kids be under this man once he becomes a boss. Another Eric Marsh type–but I wonder why at 21 years of age any wild land fire fighter would be training as a crew boss. That is screwed up if such is allowed.
RTS is this true that the FS actually allows a 21 year old to be training as a crew boss. I would believe wisdom would say that a man/women ought to have a minimum of 5 to 10 years proven wild fire experience before he could even think of being responsible for 19 other lives in a crew. What gives there?
Charlie-
check your text.
I need to know about a hack and at this moment we need to talk to confirm something.
The writing I am getting has keypoints like you but no way do you type like that.
I do know my site has been hacked and working that out with webmaster.
I just want everyone to not email unless you know such before hand that I am having cyber weirdness.
Whatever it is … it is being handled professionally.
This has been my most odd Summer in my entire life.
Weird stuff-
joy ;it is me — somewhere I got screwed. OK but hard to do with me.
Some facts. WTKTT u should be in charge of the country–Trump cant hold a second place with y9u. The Irish DNA can not be challenged except with a few blondies of the norweigen people. Sorry but facts and what is what is. WE live a while but since I died for sure at least twice proven I can say God and his servants does allow some slack. So Hitler et al are not at all right. But the Irish do have privileges way beyone what a fe blokes woud want to think. I
IN my book if WTKTT runs for Pres he has my vote –we need a boss of the military who knows
Someday the kids will come here–they will say here is RTS,here is Gary, here is Woodsman, here is Joy Collura, here is wtktt, here are people that only abide in truth. Those children, now adults will know because y9ou can not hide the truth.
Thank you cause lost a son too. And nothing but the truth will suffice..
Joy, if you have something important to add and post you can e mail to me first and if your post does not work, I will post it for you. Your posts and information are too important to loose–
7:40 pm tonight another large “drafted” post hacked and vanished – whomever is doing it – we will get to who so you know…that is three times in the past week. I won’t stop at accepting such behavior – there will be legal prosecution on this not because of time spent doing these posts but because it is criminal
Man, I thought it had stopped.
Three in a week…I am not going away if you wondered.
I shake the “ughhs” off and start again.
At least I got smarter during be ill so all it is – is loading the content again because this I saved it.
All you did was waste a month+ of my time but I will get who you are and you will be arrested.
You are behaving very wrong.
Instead of rebuilding my post right now
I will pause and have an online specialist private investigator look at first-
Thank God I know people that do that…
The following is well worth reading, from the former ” Wildlandfire.com ” – the self-proclaimed ” home of the wildland firefighter .” Among many resources on their site is the bulletin board, They Said It , which was first moderated by the original “Abercrombie” and now by Abby. They Said provides its readers with LCES, /b> : a Lookout for what we probably couldn’t otherwise see happening in the rest of the wildfire world; Communications to bring together a diverse group of agency, contractor and cooperator folks (and even some of those structure types); Escape routes for when the off-season or office day lasts too long or is just too far from the smoke; and ultimately, a Safety zone in the information, innovation and motivation to help bring us all back home.”
DEFINITELY check out the Former WildlandFire.com – They Said archives (1999-2004) with a ton of good stuff! Especially read the “ Common Errors 1919 ” and SMJ “Tony Petrilli’s witness statement from the South Canyon Fire report ” and “ Similarities of Fatality Fires, Observations of Payne, 04/04 ” and all former USFS Hot Shot Supt. and FMO Doug Campbells’ Campbell Prediction System (CPS) links
The “Wildlandfire.com They Said It” link below:
( http://www.wildlandfire.com/arc/arc.htm ) will need to be run through the “Internet Archive Wayback Machine” link ( https://archive.org/web/ ).
This is a great critique of the South Canyon Fire debacle and fully supporting the Fire Orders and the 18 Watch Out Situations by “They Said” Abercrombie
.
“Assuming there may be a few readers left with me here, I’ll now address the issues noted in the second paragraph of this article. The failure of a firefighter, all firefighters, any firefighters, regardless of rank, to follow established rules or guidelines have little to do with weather forecasters, district managers, or dispatch centers. Yet, Mr. Maclean in his ignorance and some of the readers of his book seem to prefer blaming some of these individuals, or others who were far from the fireline.
An excess amount of uninformed, misplaced, insinuations filled far too many pages of the book as the author critiqued decisions and placed blame on those making decisions about when the fire first ignited, how long it was left to burn, whose jurisdiction or responsibility it was, and how long it took until resources began to attack the fire. I consider this extraneous information as fluff, dander, and fill to make the book fit the parameter of a novel at around 275 pages. Most of dialogue, interviews, and conclusions fail to address the primary responsibility of each firefighter to comply with the fundamental rules already existing to govern their actions and behavior.
“ It didn’t matter if the South Canyon fire was burning for a week or a month, it didn’t matter if the fire was 5 or 500 acres prior to initial attack, or if there were 10 or 100 airtankers five miles away ideally spinning their props. Understand? It doesn’t matter and has absolutely no bearing on why the firefighters died . Do you get it? The primary responsibility for a crew’s safety lies with their crew supervisor. Period. It doesn’t matter who the IC is, who the Division Supervisor is, nor the Branch Director, nor any other person in an observing status. It’s the crew supervisor!
“I believe adequate training was provided these people to prevent this scenario from happening. They just didn’t follow the rules. I would like to have the capability of making sure each firefighter reading this understands that a similar situation may happen to them on any given fire. My hopes are that each of you are aware that you have the right to “question authority”. Ensure you understand and are aware of the 10 Standard Orders and the 18 Watchout Situations! Make sure you understand them and apply them to every fire you fight. You have the right to refuse any assignment you are uncomfortable with. You have the right to say NO!
“Seldom politically correct, always fire correct. . . Abercrombie
However, McClean is correct in criticizing those for allowing an easy containment to turn into a fiasco. Certainly once that was allowed, and the novice hybrid commanders made every mistake possible causing the death of the GMHS crew to be cremated, that should have been addressed in detail as well.
As a witness to the fire and survivor with loss as well I want to know the whole picture but certainly did not want to see the reason for the negligent deaths of the GMHS crew downplayed.
Author John Maclean has said many time, in public, that if/when he ever gets around to publishing a book about the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire it is GOING to pay particular attention to the day the fire started ( Friday ) and then the botched initial attack that was going on all day Saturday, the day BEFORE the tragedy.
I hope he does.
Not nearly enough attention has been paid to the incompetence and bad decision making that was going on in Yarnell for 48 hours PRIOR to Sunday, June 30, 2013, when 19 men ended up burning to death on a fire that SHOULD have been already contained.
**
** CHRISTOPHER MACKENZIE IPHONE 4S IMAGE: IMG_2738
The link below is to a NEW crossfade/fly-around video which focuses ( once again ) on GM Hotshot Christopher MacKenzie’s iPhone 4S image IMG_2738.
IMG_2738 was taken at exactly 3:55:31 PM on the day of the tragedy.
It remains the LAST known photograph taken by any of the GM Hotshots that day from their last ‘Rest Spot’ location ( in the black ), before heading south towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
The moment after this iPhone 4S image was taken, ALL photo-taking by ANY of the GM Hotshots abruptly STOPPED.
This remains the likely moment ( 3:56 PM ) when all discussions between DIVSA Eric Marsh and Acting GMIHC Superintendent Jesse Steed about whether to even attempt the move to the Boulder Springs Ranch had now ended, and Jesse Steed told his GM crew that the ‘break’ was over and it was time to “Gaggle up”, leave the safe black, and begin to head south.
This NEW video focuses on the RIGHT SIDE of Christopher’s IMG_2738, and shows EXACTLY what the ‘field of view’ really was, and what terrain features and locations could ( or could NOT ) be SEEN in the photograph itself.
In light of recent events and postings, it was worth taking another ( detailed ) look at exactly what the right-side ‘field of view’ for Christopher’s IMG_2738 really includes.
In the video, the YELLOW LINE represents the exact sightline for the right-side edge of the photograph and is also translated onto the ground in the subsequent fly-around.
As the fly-around shows, the ‘field of view’ for that right-side of Christopher’s photograph includes locations in the distance that are all the way up to halfway down the road that led out to the Boulder Springs Ranch itself.
BOTTOM LINE: As of 3:55:31 PM, there was absolutely NO fire OR smoke emanating from ANY area contained within the ‘field of view’ of Christopher’s IMG_2738, other than the main fire line seen on the LEFT side of the photograph.
Here is the new video…
Video Title: MacKenzie-IMG-2738-035531PM
Date Created: August 12, 2019
Video Description:
Crossfade from Christopher MacKenzie’s iPhone 4S image IMG-2738, taken at 3:55:31 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 at the Yarnell Hill Fire, into the equivalent Google Earth terrain view. The YELLOW line represents the right-side edge of the image.
Video Link: https://youtu.be/KCB1mcS22Ys
Something of the photo is if there were a burn outside the yellow line that would not have been seen with the wind in the direction it was. Would that be likely-or did it happen. Only the men doing the burn if it happened can come forward and let us know. DND do you know?
Reply to Charlie post on August 21, 2019 at 10:27 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Something of the photo is if there were a burn outside the
>> yellow line that would not have been seen with the wind in
>> the direction it was. Would that be likely-or did it happen.
Not likely.
Not at 3:55:31 PM, anyway.
That was sort of the point of the latest crossfade/fly-around on that Christopher MacKenzie iPhone 4S photo taken at exactly 3:55:31 PM.
It was to show that IAOI ( If And Only If ) there had been any kind of manual burnout anywhere near the BSR at that time… then how CLOSE would it have had to have been to the BSR to NOT be visible in the MacKenzie photo.
The point where the right-edge sightline of the MacKenzie 3:55:31 PM photo actually intersects with the road leading out to Boulder Springs Ranch was only 271 yards ( 813 feet ) away from the BSR front gate security camera, which was recording video all afternoon, until the power went off at the BSR at 4:54:49 PM.
At its closest point, the right-edge sightline of the MacKenzie photo comes within just 171 yards ( 528 feet ) of the security camera.
Even according to the security camera footage… at 3:55:31 PM there is NO sign of any ‘smoke’ in any area between the security camera and any part of the right-edge sightline of the MacKenzie photo.
Remember… we are ONLY talking about 3:55 PM.
That photo taken by Christopher MacKenzie was the LAST one taken by any Granite Mountain Hotshot before they ‘Gaggled Up’ and left the safe black.
So that simply remains the LAST ‘good look’ at that entire area from the Weaver Ridge vantage point… and it confirms that, circa 3:55 PM, there were no VISIBLE burnouts happening in either the Shrine / Youth Camp area OR anywhere along the dozer push or along Sesame Street.
WTKTT
Finally getting around to this after dealing with “the gift that keeps on giving” – Windows 10.
Thank you for your usual good work on these crossfade videos and this one in particular. The few WFs and FFs involved are fairly adamant on the “18 to 20 minutes prior to the GMHS Burnover” as their firing operation timeframe.
I came across this YH Fire SAIT Drop Box link the other day from a thread with you and Rocksteady that should definitely add fodder to the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operations issue. It’s loaded with excellent fire behavior photos in the June 30, 2013, timeframe even though the metadata is really mucked up.
This is the “read me.txt. from the Drop Box: “Rick Tham, a local resident, took these June 30, 2013 photos before and while evacuating. Stewart Turner, the Type 1 FBAN on the Yarnell Hill Fire, gave them to the Accident Investigation Team. The file names for most of the photos begin “Yarnell Hill Fire june 28-30 2013.” The earliest photo is stamped 6/29 at 10:28 am and the last is 6/30 at 4:59 pm. However, an email to Carrie Templin, member of the Accident Investigation Team, states Tham took them just before and while evacuating, which would have been June 30.”
This was your edited March 2015 post on the topic of fire behavior with Rock Steady.
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-273115 )
“WantsToKnowTheTruth says March 11, 2015 at 4:05 pm
“Reply to rocksteady post on March 11, 2015 at 1:28 pm
********************
“TWO of local resident ( and photographer ) Rick Tham’s photos have ALWAYS shown an obvious TORNADO within the smoke column even as early as 3:21 PM.
********************
“Rick Tham’s photos are all HERE in the SAIT Online Dropbox
( https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAa-lsvLUB16n0wjQpatZlPa/Photos%20and%20Video/Rick%20Tham%20Photos?dl=0 )
*********************
You refer to these two photos: “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 197.jpg” and “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 198.jpg” … “were taken within seconds of each other on the NORTH side of the fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013 at around 3:21 PM”?
So then, with non-existent metadata in these photos, I’m curious, how you concluded the date and time on that photo? And what program did you use to do that?
Now leaving the tornado issue, I offer these three photos (and others) below and within the SAIT Drop Box to address the germane aggressive fire behavior and firing operation photos, especially the three listed below.
( “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 267.jpg” ) view from Burro Trail off Hwy. 89.
( “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 268.jpg” ) from above Pat Bernard’s place near where Jerry Thompson and the SCW FD FFs were perched.
( “Yarnell Hill Fire june28-30 2013 269.jpg” ) view from the Assembly of God church off Hwy. 89.
In my professional opinion, this Drop Box is replete with LOTS of relevant fire behavior photos supporting the ongoing firing operation(s) in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operations discussion
I am confused.
On Friday, August 30, 2019 10:44 PM I received “A new visitor just sent you a chat message on yarnell hill fire revelations . com”
Location of Message: Yarnell, AZ
“rick thams photos were 90 present in peeples valley”
————————————————
The confusing part is I spent years on IM stating there is not ONE SOUL who can say they know that terrain as much as I do in the way I do (and blind-folded) so it would be obvious to me that I would know if this person’s statement above meant 90 percent then I know and I have expressed the importance that people share their pics with me because I know that area and can pick it apart to exact locations showing you HOW I came to this. Now, if you meant 90 present than I need more than that to comprehend.
The photo I know was taken right near Kramers place (photo 268) has a google off the streets to the sky to show you where it leads to and it leads to Sesame to Shrine Corridor areas not way out by the old grader yet Tham is not an easy person to reach but by snail mail so it is a long process.
I do not do social media so if any of you want to take that task and reach him – go ahead.
Email online for him was unsuccessful.
There is some tips I can share with you … Damion Tham may be able to help or Gloria Jean Tham … or Corey Tham … or Sherri Taylor. We need to see the originals from his photos. I really think it was savvy of the SAIT SAIR to label the TITLE June 28- June 30, 2013 because people would overlook it with first glance saying June 28 but number 268 is significant if we know the exact metadata and WTKTT mentioned the smoke whirl ages ago yet very odd not much “talk or discussions” on the 242, 258- 266, 268 , 269, 270, 273, 003.
————————————————————-
We need <much more clarification yet it also is a public reminder how the SAIT SAIR failed us in their investigation because they failed to look into this area more in depth … I am greatly disappointed. SAIT team had this opportunity to be with Tham so how did it become some general dropbox. link and not be a focus on the times of the above photos and show the times when adding to dropbox.
—————————————————————
In Addition, some of you got the D.C. post in published form via email when it published then vanished and if there is any way if the link shows content let us know – we need to figure if it was the webmaster technical difficulties — if it ends up being the other that someone hacked in two computers of ours I am legally going to prosecute for that D.C. posts took many weeks to do and I thought when it happened – ugh timing – yet listen I saved most to content to PDF so it is just a matter of sitting down to do it all over again yet all of August and this month I am dealing with health concerns and I also am on tri-therapy of antibiotics so I am not going to begin to redo the posts until I am clear headed because I may get harsh toned on some … I will be revealing Fire20+ in that post to show about certain folks behaviors and placing misinformation out in the Hotshot Industry.
REMEMBER THIS on June 30, 2013 I was just your housewife hiker and helped local elders and kids and that is on pause because I do not mind getting as educated as I can get with Wildland Fire conferences and training and school until those MANY people who think their secret(s) died with the men and can lay until their grave.
I met people who have been true legends and I have met people who think they are a legend in their own mind. You are about to see me challenge people even more so you can lawyer up all you want or even have others get in your ears to say deny it ever happened yet you never seen a human being with a fire in the belly like me.
You want to be legendary yet be anonymous – I have kept everyone’ story to myself even people in the in of all this … their is a man who told me who is the man (well respected) in your industry that if he was put on the stand he would tell what Musser told him … now for me, no court room will get me to give the anonymity of these people up even if it meant jail time for me. I am that serious about protecting people who were there those last 18 minutes. It needs to be told first hand and that us how I am doing it. Some were pissed off all through year because I say I am gonna do this and then it does not pan out what I say I was gonna do … that is usually due to external factors or my health but not a day goes by that I stay the course
Anyone who was a part in the beginnings to knowing me will also be brought to the light to show the world your only stance was narratives and campfire stories.
Since that dog bite my health journey has been not so great yet every day I am doing my part to heal and get prepared for training next month.
You all that tried to knock me down this Summer 2019 where I thought you were on board as first or second hand to start talking then clammed up after some on IM said a few choice words… (sigh)
Cobra Kia and as well Mr Miyagi really taught me something ages ago and google Cobra Kia on YouTube to see the re-vamp 34 years later … listen to some good 80’s music and take you back to when time was not the bullshit we see today. Simpler times.
https://youtu.be/81XSlh_UKJg
h t t ps://images.app.goo.gl/ wAcUKpTsiRMBeJVb6
Mr Han: “Life can knock us down, but we choose whether to get up or not.”
Oh and for the ones who feel the above is eighth grade mentality shows … that’s your take … TV was so popular in the 80’s so if I want to get a little eighth grade nostalgia … it is my life and right.
God Bless you and stay the course and I get the clam ups
I do.
Yet I also know when to do the right thing by these 19.
Me publicly sharing and others taking it as teases .. I am sharing my journey … as you share yours. So what you wait until you gather then tell. I tell things as it comes to me as a online time stamp so I can easily go CTRL F on the topic </b versus looking at hand written notes.
I have not read IM in awhile … been really trying to get heal and start on my path to train up for October if they give me that call that I am in I want to be healthy and clear-minded for the people training me and the students.
Some do not like Gary’s ways yet he is the sensai of IM because I remember the days I would ask for removal of harsh comments back yearrrrrsssss ago to John Dougherty and I even asked for stuff to be removed on the widow due to its heat effect. I have the deepest respect for each and everyone and what they presented here.
I am confused though how all these years later Bob Powers wrote some harsh stuff about MacLean and his team and yet they are buddy buddy now and a book was born… was their something to that …did IM help you bridge to MacLean because IM tore me and MacLean in person a part and awaiting its on Earth healings … no reason to tell me it is a dead end when I tried in person to present documents to try and bridge an area I thought he had a better chance at than me.
Ain’t doing a book or movie and recently Weather Channel asked Sonny and I to do a show called heroes and survivors … I tried to reroute them to some that were there the last 18 minutes and told them maybe that is their platform to speak up…
Tuesday, August 20, 2019 9:33 AM
Hello,
I’m hoping to find Joy Collura. We would like to do a story on the Weather Channel about the Yarnell Hill fire. I have found a YouTube page which lead me to this email.
Not sure who it is associated with – but please put me in contact with Joy Collura or Sonny Gilligan. I can definitely give you more information.
https://youtu.be/uv-VGRdFWko
Contact me as soon as you can.
Thank you!
—
Sabrina Hawkins-CONT | Associate/Story Producer
——————————————-
Hey people that were their last 18 minutes … you wanna call them and be for reals and become a true hero and survivor
Donut was the survivor of the Crew yet he is not the only one who survived that day…
typo:
that is usually due to external factors or my health but not a day goes by that I stay the course
that is usually due to external factors or my health but not a day goes by that I don’t stay the course
I was alerted in the past day why would I mention the whole thing with the past how Bob Powers wrote on here to then they worked it out some how – none of any bodys business _
My reply to that is John Norman MacLean’s emails to me over time have always been pleasant and John named me one of his friends even during the whole 2015 situation so when I saw him in person and he calculated IM as he did – I did my best to explain how this is a “tool” and a free place to share except the moderation hang-ups and rants and raves over time.
So I felt I had a right to share if he feels that way naming all of us here who participate on IM he does not participate with than I have a right in my next post to add in some areas to fill in some of this gap and pieces.
Hey, we all like and perceive people differently. I get that.
Yet, Bob Powers in earlier chapters was not always cordial or respectful to John Norman MacLean – then at the 2018 The Southern California Association of Foresters & Fire Wardens Conference John Norman MacLean was there for presenting YH Fire Five Years Later and book signing.
I always felt their research team had their own flair yet I did not expect the response as it happened alone without others there that I would have got the reaction I did. For some reason as he spoke on the front door step as butterflies so beautiful flew near us all I could think is try to explain IM yet he was serious on if I wanted to present information and documents he was a dead end for me and he extended his arm and cordially shook my hand like not “see you later” feel but ‘goodbye, deal with it Joy we are on two different paths”
I walked away. I am stubborn. I do not believe it is a dead end if we are all here to try and piece what happened that weekend making a book or not as he is … We all should be doing the best even if one promised anonymity to get the data out in best way we can
.
In closing, that was why some of my next post will reveal you IM’s Fire20+ because someone tied to you or even possibly you have placed misinformation out to the Hotshot Community on March 7th, 2019 12:23PM in regards to me and the photos I took June 30, 2013. Someone close to you or even possibly you wrote someone that my photo was taken at 6:39AM on June 30, 2013. I was there and Sonny was there. We know where we were when photos were being taken and 6:39AM I would have been curving around what would become later that day the Deployment Zone Box Canyon at that time of day and if you ever been on the bottom where the men died than you know I could not take a photo that was right of the lunch spot area which is hidden by that right boulderous hill that leads to the Saddle.
I just want to show the world John Norman MacLean states all of IM but in reality it’s selective because he did end up gathering data from Bob Powers to make his book. The same Bob Powers who wrote on IM some pretty harsh perceptions all along I was telling the world we all can be free to have our style of who we are in doing this yet if anyone is shady in it – the light will eventually hit that shade.
I hope this helped that one person explain what I meant by mentioning Bob Powers. I have always enjoyed Mr. Powers and still do. His only tie of mentioning his name is because of John’s comments did not match reality when he said all of IM… Both John and Bob are fine by me just making a point.
Here is something that would help change your health. Avoid plastics hard but will make the difference. Plastic bottles for water–flexible by use of phytalates–not strongly bound so seep into the water more if plastic is warmed. Phytalates are endocrine disrupters, increased allergy reactions, and asthma. 99% people have this in the urine tests. banned in cosmetics in europe and now in baby bottles in US but BPS is just as bad a substitute.
Next BPA and substitutes BPS–small amounts in animals dangerous. linked to cancer, asthma, including heart disease and a host of health problems.
Despite the chemical companies telling you that plastic is safe, you see cancer is is expected to infect 50% of the population by 2025. Heart disease right up there with cancer and other diseases on the rise–medical profession is the money game now.
PVCs in carpet, flooring such as I had floored my place with,, roofing, etc are the worse with the dioxins that are deadly even in small amounts but all these chemicals over time are cumulative in the body
Here are some of the other chemicals emitted off PVC–dioxins,phytalates, vinyl chloride, ethylene dichloride. lead, and cadmium. There is no safe way to use or dispose of vinyl chloride.
Now you see that between your carpet life, your exposure to so many plastics-even worse when heated, the chemicals you use in cosmetics, then another dose of deadly chemicals from the fire retardant we breathed and smoke that also has enough carcinogens, it is no wonder you are seeing doctors for all kinds of sickness. . Damn this chemical industry but they are such liars and know they are killing people and making the world sick. And here is the thing–if you want to risk that lifestyle then go to it. But my own idea is wood flooring and staying away from plastic and retardant and other chemicals where I can.
We erred at Yarnell–should have never made those hikes through the retardant drops–but we were ignorant at the time of the chemical problem. So were the people we hiked, and so were the Yarnellites that are now dead or sick after being subjected to an intentional or unintentional experiment that has reduced the population by almost a third in just 6 years.
But know that the toxins that you breath from the retardants and plastics are generally cumulative and may take some time to give you the cancer, heart disease, and a host of other health problems in time. However, if Yarnell is any example, and you have some age on you, expect the effects to be fast to put you in illness and on your death bed.
JD is a hero–his work on preventing the polluting by mining companies and other interests greedy for money but lacking in concern for the health of people and the environment is laudable. The polluters need be exposed–this planet and its environment are at a desperate turning point and the health of the people has been disregarded with industry and corporations the major participants. What he is fighting is against criminals of the highest order since it affects all of us, the wildlife, environment, oceans and all we experience though this life.
About Plastic:
There was 35 million tons of plastic produced in the US in 2015. The wold produced 270 million tons and that year 275 million tons went into waste–some went into land fills, a small amount was burned. 91% of plastic is not recycled meaning this world is accumulating plastic that never disentigrates except by burning. The oceans are now getting 8 million tonnes per year and along with the retardants and phosphates is there any wonder how dead zones are increasing and aquatic life is threatened. Then you have a President that is opening the valve to more of the same.
But for your health stay away from plastic as much as possible and for sure the retardant scene.
Next in the plastic is BPA
About Retardants–19 million gallons were dumped on forest fires US 2019. It was a 6+ billion dollar industry. We all know the devastating effects of Phosphates on fish and other aquatic life and the causing of ocean dead zones by phosphates and ammonium that are by rain waters and rivers added to the ocean waters. Little is said about the health effects on people, yet Yarnell is a prime example of how deadly these substances are, especially the elderly and those already compromised in health.
My opinions–do your own studies–you will then understand the magnitude of the problem.
correction 19 billion tons of retardant was dumped on lands in 2016–For 2018 I did not give the figures but it has to be much more and the industry has moved from a 6 billion dollar figure to a much higher amount–
It is easy to understand how a 6 billion dollar industry can put up a 100million or more in funds to keep its propaganda machine well oiled. But these companies all go together in an organization that includes such giants as Monsanto, Standard Oil, Wal Mart and on and on to promote their interests–money money–but at what expense to the health of the masses and the environment? Clowns are we? I have to wonder who is foooling who and who wears the clown make up?
Why would there be absolutely no other photos available of the area after the McKinsie photo? A burn started after that time of that photo would be seen. It would only take a few minutes for a burn to proceed to the Helms area and block off the death canyon . Even if started ten minutes before the men died, it would have been long enough to have blocked their escape.
As I was reading this, it seems that they were burning as they were leaving and Donut and his buggy passed them. One fireman had seen that his burn had advanced up the hill for half a mile in five minutes. He saw it was moving fast–then they realized suddenly that their burn was a factor in trapping the GMHS crew.
I wonder how it is this information was never investigated. You can’t make this shit up and nobody would.
I begin to understand it–If you are in law enforcement it is OK to lie–especially if it can entrap a criminal. In fire fighting bosses it is OK to lie as well as I saw at Peeples Valley–and I am not making this up–Joy has it on tape. It is OK to do a big lie if you are CIA–Ollie North did it and the CIA cronies at that time got away with it.
But to lie when 19 GMHS crew are killed is not at all proper. No excuse on this one.
” How liars create the ‘illusion of truth. ‘
Repetition makes a fact seem more true, regardless of whether it is or not. Understanding this effect can help you avoid falling for propaganda, says psychologist Tom Stafford.”
“’ Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth,’ is a law of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels . If repetition was the only thing that influenced what we believed we’d be in trouble, but it isn’t. We can all bring to bear more extensive powers of reasoning, but we need to recognise they are a limited resource.
Our minds are prey to the illusion of truth effect because our instinct is to use short-cuts in judging how plausible something is. Often this works. Sometimes it is misleading. Once we know about the effect we can guard against it. Part of this is double-checking why we believe what we do – if something sounds plausible is it because it really is true, or have we just been told that repeatedly?
This is why scholars are so mad about providing references – so we can track the origin on any claim, rather than having to take it on faith. But part of guarding against the illusion is the obligation it puts on us to stop repeating falsehoods. We live in a world where the facts matter, and should matter.
If you repeat things without bothering to check if they are true, you are helping to make a world where lies and truth are easier to confuse. So, please, think before you repeat.”
( http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161026-how-liars-create-the-illusion-of-truth )
BBC Future. Psychology. Tom Stafford. 26 October 2016
Sonny,
I have been working on what HB told us Sonny long ago and even he told RTS recently about how and what he saw and identified a FF who was badly burned in front of his place and yet the Chief said there was no injuries so it is still a “shelved” area…
I sent you an email that I think belongs to you and may help in your documentary
Joy,
How about some clarification on this one.
There were also numerous credible reports of “several injured firefighters” and “FFs with burn injuries” that have never seen the light of day.
It’s not clear from the article if these were FFs working the YH Fire but a permissible inference since the article was on that subject.
( http://archive.azcentral.com/ic/contest/pulitzer/yarnell/ )
Wickenburg hospital expecting to treat “several” injured firefighters; 19 still unaccounted for. ( #yarnellfire
http://bit.ly/14kf8Kh ) 6:41 PM – 30 Jun 2013; 6:41 p.m.:
The hospital in nearby Wickenburg prepares to receive the injured, prompting The Republic to send reporters Dennis Wagner and Lindsey Collom there. Twitter link.
Additionally, an anonymous local source mentioned by Joy above, stated that he witnessed a local FF on June 30, 2013, being treated in front of his house for burns on both of his hands.
However, the Wickenburg Hospital neither confirmed nor denied any such injuries and cited HIPAA laws (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, Public Law 104-191), regarding any further information.
With the deepest depth of thick tears in my eyes … deep … there was a local FF being treated in front of a homeowners home next to Helms entrance for bad burns to his arms and I have for years tried to properly identify these reports from more than one person and the Chief sticks to no injuries even though the dept has been verified by more than one person. I have always tried to get a name and maybe some day that person reads IM and knows I have tried – and hopefully you tell your story how you go the burns and where at …
I hope that added clarification, RTS but with all the recent attacks to me I just do not get why ??? and this has not been an easy path … the more I learn the more I wonder how can so many still keep it all out of the public …
his arms and hands
Reply to Charlie post on September 13, 2019 at 10:14 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Why would there be absolutely no other photos available
>> of the area after the McKinsie photo?
There are TONS of “photos available of the area” after GM Hotshot Christopher MacKenzie took his final iPhone photo at 3:55:31 PM from the vantage point of GM last rest spot, up on the Weaver Ridge.
There are even many photographs / videos covering the 3:55 PM to 5:00 PM timeframe that I am given to understand haven’t even been made public yet.
But Mackenzie’s 3:55:31 PM photo apparently remains the LAST photo that was taken from the vantage point of the Weaver Ridge and looking BACK EAST towards Yarnell, Glen Ilah, and the Sesame Street / Shrine Road area(s).
All of the other ( published ) photographs and videos after 3:55:31 PM were taken from somewhere in/near Yarnell and Glen Ilah and looking back WEST towards the approaching firestorm.
That’s what makes it difficult to determine exactly what the source of the smoke is/was in most of those other photos.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> A burn started after that time of that photo would be seen.
Yes… and if it started shortly after 3:55 PM… it would/could/should have EASILY been seen by the Granite Mountain Hotshots themselves from their excellent vantage point up on the Weavers the WHOLE time they were hiking SOUTH towards what would become the ‘Descent Point’ into the box canyon.
Until about 4:20 PM when they ‘arrived’ at the ‘Descent Point’… Jesse Steed and the GM Hotshots SHOULD have been able to easily see ANYTHING that might have been happening “out there” in the Sesame Street / Shrine Road area(s)… and would still have had time to react accordingly and change their plans.
They didn’t.
They still dropped down into that blind box canyon circa 4:20 PM.
I have to agree with WTKTT–not likely yet with the winds the way they were that afternoon a burn out of the Shrine would have flared up extremely fast. I have to really doubt that anything but the main fire killed those men yet all angles should have honestly been presented. The fact that we did see that a burn was being made at the Shrine yet was never reported is suspect and should have been addressed instead of redacting the video that showed the burn. It shows the dishonesty involved in the investigation which of course was rampant and a fiction created then only facts gleaned and half truths said with many redactions and threats to support the fiction. It is sad that such men of so called honor would do that but it seems to have been the norm in so many investigations–Mann Gulch, Storm King and several others qualified firefighting experts have attested to.
I had thought the burn being made was late at the Shrine but where did it start from since where they were using drip torches would have been the end of their burn line. And time of that burn would be important–this is something several men know about including times and extent of that burn. I am certain the talk is out and it would be very nice if those people would post here on IM. IM people are only seeing the truth as harsh as it is in this case as has already been proven even with just what we know in the careless manner the crew were killed. Facts are sometimes brutal but the truth is the only way progress will be made to save more lives.
For me, I could never hold back something like the times and facts about any burn. It would be too much weight on my conscience considering the value of how the truth bears directly on the lives and safety of future wild land fire fighters.
https://youtu.be/KCB1mcS22Ys
I promise you I am not WTKTT-
that is so unusual for you to drop just the link
You always describe everything
Summer heat got ya
or the annoying time trying to post.
or both
Thank you for the link-
It will be in my next post.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on August 20, 2019 at 5:45 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Summer heat got ya
>> or the annoying time trying to post.
>> or both.
Only the former.
That ‘link only’ message was actually just a TEST to try and work out why the original message just ‘vanished’ on August 12.
As it turns out… it went straight to the system’s SPAM folder ( and NOT into moderation or something like that ), and then all further attempts to post the same message would just return a “Duplicate Comment” rejection notice even though the original comment never appeared.
The complete original message that never made it to the forum back on August 12 has now been reposted above as a new parent comment.
That’s the first time I’ve experienced the ‘vanishing comment’ thing… but I guess it can happen to anyone at any time. Sometimes the system just ‘hiccups’ and makes a mistake.
Perhaps that is what was happening to Downhillndirect when he first started trying to post messages. If the message goes into the system’s SPAM folder, then it never even enters ‘moderation’ and it looks like the message just ‘vanished’.
Yeah…I was about to post my DC thing this week and today it vanished- someone is messing with us… Starting Over but very frustrating.
It certainly looks in that photo the McKensie photo there were burns being made they would have been after 3:55:31 PM-which would be a span of about an hour before fire caught up to the GMHS crew..
That requires a wild land fire fighter expert in laying burns out as to what might have occurred in that time frame. There would have to be a knowledge of where the firing was done and what wind velocities were present during and after the firing.
I am certain there were torches being used to set burnouts above the Shrine. Those could have been started even before 3:55 PM and would not have been evident in the McKenzie photo. Reason being because the Shrine is in a deep canyon where even from the two track could not have been seen. However, those fires were while the wind was up and I do not have any knowledge when the winds started to reverse at a fierce rate nor the direction they took at various changes. I do know when I topped the Weavers I could tell there was going to be a storm coming in and could feel a with a gentle motion of air reverse from what I was seeing when I had left Joy. Joy had said it took 40 minutes for me to return so whatever time I did see her upon return would approximate the time I was at the top of the Weavers.
There is evidence of a burn at least at the Shrine area–and I would think there would be more than just that area knowing how wild land fire fighters use burns to protect residences. So I have to believe that reports from fire fighters that were involved in burns are true but they would do well to say when and where to clear up whether there would be any possibility that these burns could have affected the demise of the GMHS crew.
But I am so interested as well in why so many residents of Yarnell died after the fire–well beyond the national average–something on the range of 5-7 times of what the death count should have been in the six years after the Yarnell demise of the 19. We are looking at approximately 200 souls dead and many others ill–obviously from the inundation of Yarnell by the chemical retardants of Phos Chek and its secret ingredients.
I had wondered if lead or even arsenic or cyanide and other chemicals such as bromates and phylates (known and proven carcinogens) were present would they be required to report them to the EPA or any other government health agency. The answer is no they do not. They can put whatever they want in those secret formulas and anything they report is voluntary–which of course is very little. They are innocent until proven guilty no matter what they include. Their reports concerning safety to health are totally acceptable to EPA and until it can be shown that their retardant chemicals are sickening and killing people they can continue their poisonous attacks on people and the environment.
You see, the chemical effects are more often chronic rather than acute. It takes some time for the bromates, lead, phylates and so forth to accumulate to a point that cancer sets in. Our bodies are amazing and can withstand so much chemical attack but there is a breaking point. Once over that threshold there is no turning back and with the huge rise in cancer the doctors are using even more toxic chemicals to try to extend peoples lives by a few weeks, or maybe months or years. Yet many of the doctors that use the chemo-therapies say they would refuse them if they themselves got the cancers.
Well there are only about 10 chemicals out of over 17,000 used in products including retardants, household goods, foods and just about anything we live with today. Even cosmetics or where ever they wish to hide a chemical dangerous to health they will list as a fragrance component. Fragrances are also trade secret and by law they do not even have to be reported to anyone including government as to their chemical make up.
It is a win situation to the big chemical companies and a loss to your health. Only about 10 chemicals have restricted use in the US out of the
more than 17,000. In European Common Market countries over 1200 are banned so the Europeans can sell products to the US that they can not sell in their own countries. That is how strong the American Chemical Council (ACC) is in keeping laws in force so people can not know what they are being subjected to.
The ACC is made up of a group of the most powerful chemical companies and industries and funded by hundreds of millions of dollars so that propaganda, promotion of products, and highly paid lobbyists with access to million dollar funding aimed at promoting friendships with lawmakers is available. ACC after all has resources from such people as DuPont, Monsanto, Standard Oil, Wal Mart, and on and on. It is a huge list of chemical producers and vendors of such products with secret ingredients so you can see that money is unlimited in such an organization to promote the protection and growth of their money trees.
If you look at all diseases including cancer, heart disease, renal problems, neurological problems, and many more you will see that since the 50’s and 60’s they have sky rocketed despite all the science to find cures.
And certainly I am a marvel of modern science. Doctors saved me from death more than once and I am talking of real death where you go down the tunnel and know your are dead–people that loose 4-5 units of blood go into a death situation that only extreme measures occasionally can bring them back–I had lost 6 units–my son a long time RN trauma ER hospital nurse said Dad you were dead–they brought you back and I spent $140 making sure the doctors and nurses working on you had coffee, donuts and whatever I could provide to keep them working.
Yet I might be fortunate but too many of the Yarnellites were not. Nothing brought them back and I have to feel the sadness of those facts. But also the sadness that I realize that many will live though life in a diminished condition due to the slow debilitating effects these chemicals take. Too many are living in such a diminished state it is a shame to our system when we see people having to visit the medical profession so often and even now children in cancer treatment or in diabetic or autistic states.
Do I expect my little talk about the retardant and other chemical evils will do much? Maybe I am naive enough to think it could help some one and if it should then it has been well said if you save a life then you save a world. It also might even save someone wise enough to think and research a life of misery.
Before I met Joy not very long I had a friend named Peggy Long. She had a disability where she could not speak. We made good friends cause she could not talk and I could not hear worth a damn. She had to write everything down and her scribbles were hard to define so when I would take her to the doctor or other places I often had to interpret her writhing. I always said she was a God send to teach people patience. And many did not have it and suffered frustration trying to contend with the slow method of communication and the ever presence of her Saint Bernard service dog.
Her one thing was that anytime I went to town, even if she did not go,. she would request cherry coke by the case. She drank it like a chain smoker smokes. I tried to tell her that it could not be good for health, yet as many people can be, she stubbornly adhered to her habit.
The result was she ended up with cancer. It came upon her suddenly and within a month she was breaking out in black tumors that had their black veins running off the tumor like the insidious killer it was.
When I got her to the hospital in great pain, the doctor said we can give you Chemo Therapy but either way you only have two weeks to live. She lived a little longer than that and I did care for her service animal and was there at its final death. The ordeal weighed heavily on me since I had cared for Peggy and truly felt that she was a chosen person. To see her die at the young age of 54 was a tragedy to me as even my son’s death was a tragedy.
Since I have come to the idea that the secret ingredients in the Coke had much to do with her cancers and death. I do not know what they add that is artificial chemicals to make it smell and taste like cherry coke but they can not be good.
I conclude that our health and well being is totally dependent upon our own knowledge and desire to avoid best we can the chemical world we now live in. You will not see much interest in the billionaires and their instigated laws and bought politicos in the common person’s health.
Tex Gilligan
3:13 PM (3 minutes ago)
to me
The more I study about the chemical situation the more I am appalled at the lack of information given to the wild land fire fighter about the dangers involved in breathing the gases produced and the effects on human health. Your chances of having respiratory, cancer, heart failure are excessive compared to the general population–your fate that similar to the coal , uranium and hard rock miner in later life.
You can certainly expect to have breathing difficulties in later life and from the low oxygen levels to your body you will eventually find yourself suffering heart attack and cancer if you survive the heart attack. To give you an idea of your future here are some figures concerning heart attack these days copied from a report of the Institute of Medicine concerning the 600,000 heart attacks that occur each year in the USA.
“Every year in the U.S., approximately 395,000 cases of cardiac arrest occur outside of a hospital setting, in which less than 6 percent survive. Approximately 200,000 cardiac arrests occur each year in hospitals, and 24 percent of those patients survive. Estimates suggest that cardiac arrest is the third leading cause of death in the U.S. behind cancer and heart disease.”
All my own heart attacks occurred outside the Hospital but the first one that laid me on the VA Hospital parking lot also killed me, yet modern science in some instances can save you. Since only 6 out of a hundred survive an outside heart attack I can now understand when Joy said you know Sonny there were 9 heart attack victims in the Prescott Hospital but you were the only one that survived that week. She had been consoling those that had lost loved ones while I was still in intensive care.
So even in a hospital you chance of surviving a heart attack is only one in four but there one in nine although some survived for the week. This heart business is very serious. Sudden cardiac deaths (SCD) account for roughly 40–50% of annual duty-related fatalities in the fire service. So despite the risk of being a fireman, your risk of dying by a heart attack as a fireman is much greater.
I had to wonder why so many fire fighters die from heart attack. Then I had to know about Phos Chek and other retardants with the chemical toxins that can not be avoided by the fire fighter.
Yet it is not only the fire fighter that has a death knoll due to the chemicals. Some of the very same chemicals are found in dynamite fumes, gun powder fumes, rocket fumes and other industries especially where noxious gases are produced from heat applications. Plastic workers are especially subject to these problems–though more toward the cancer problems.
But to give you and idea of what firefighters, miners, and people that breath such things as burned retardants, explosion gases, propellant gases and diesal and gasoline exhausts here are some effects of one chemical class only–Nitrogen. I will list only the Nitrous dioxide since it is most common –Nitrous Oxide and Nitrous Trioxice have similar effects and this is from an Army Medical Report:
TABLE 10-11
TOXIC EFFECTS OF HUMAN EXPOSURE TO
NITROGEN DIOXIDE
NO 2
(ppm)
Exposure
Time (min) Effects/Comments
1,000 15 Immediate incapacitation;
respiratory and eye injury
followed by death
100 60 Immediate respiratory and eye
injury with progressive respira-
tory injury and death
50 60 Immediate respiratory and eye
irritation with possible sub-
acute and chronic pulmonary
lesions
25 60 Immediate respiratory irritation
with chest pain
5 60 Acute reversible respiratory
function effects
5 15 ACGIH’s STEL
∼1 60 Equivocal respiratory function
effects and impaired dark
adaptation of vision
The report talks of Geman Soldies that had died in their tanks from this Nitrous Oxide poison –the gases off firing their tanks.
You see, Phos Chek and other similar retardants contain and produce much of these gases once they encounter the fires. And Nitrous Oxide is just one of the lung killers along with the ammonium and other chemcals known and unknown produced when retardant is applied to fire.
In the study that I pasted about Nitrous Oxide on health, Germans were using repirators filled with carbon and sodium carbonate. The scientists doing the study surmised that the masks were likely concentrating the Nitrous Oxide rather than reducing it–why so many Germans were getting ill despite the respirators.
The scientists also stated that in our new age of chemicals and changes in gunpowder, etc there are even more dangerous chemicals involved. For instance mentioned was the white smoke you see from rocket launches. That is mostly hydrogen chloride gas mixed with other chemicals that if you breath for a while will kill you just as dead as the Nitrous Oxides will.
So it is no wonder that wild land fire fighters and other firefighters are on a journey that is time lapsed– your chemical intake is much more dangerous than the job you do–well unless you get a boss who is too stupid to follow safety rules.
That nitrous oxide copy paste thing was in columns. The 60 meant constant exposure of say 1000ppm or also 100ppm for 60 minutes equals ensuing respiratory and eye problems ending in death.
The final thing was approximately 1ppm minute of exposure resulting in impaired night vision.. etc
The facts are not debatable. There are enough out there to offer some solid reasons as to why 19 men are dead. One was the careless, needless and thoughtless risk of 17 young lives by their leaders, although Jesse Steed did give some thought and argument against the risk. We do not know how much Marsh’s bosses were involved but there has to be some culpability there as well since Marsh was also taking orders.
We know that the risk to “protect structures” was also taken breaking every safety rule in the book known and taught to fire fighters and fire fighter leaders. Of the four LESC rules all were broken. This knowing that the fire could not have in any way been deterred by waving Pulaskis or by squiting 5 gallon back packs at it. It was of megafire proportions being driven by fierce winds in the densest of dehydrated manzanita growth releasing energies equal to a Hiroshima type A Bomb according to fire scientists Morrison and Wooten. To get in front of it or caught in a dangerous box canyon choked with manzanta was comparabole to suicide and certain horrendous death.
No one can debate the facts as stated above. But what can be debated is policies. The policies to redact facts in order to maintain a false story, the policy to threaten peoples livelihood and careers, the policy to make every fire fighting death an accident, and the policy to do everything possible to give a great public image to the Yarnell Fire Fighting incident and every debacle at fire fighting a fairy land Cinderella ending can be changed. Lives matter and truth matters and nothing will gain by subterfuge but much will be lost by refusing to face the facts
Order was off on LCES but so non fire fighters know and in case Donut types that rely on bosses instead of not knowing the “hillbilly” safety rules abreviated as LCES:
What are these rules? We would have the GMHS crew all here and alive today had they been followed instead of being considered “hillbilly”.
Lookouts
Have experience to recognize potential threats
Be decisive
Communicate clearly
Be in a position to see potential threats and the entire crew
Be in a safe location
Communications
Have a communication plan
Command to retreat must be clearly understood by all
Escape Routes
Easily traveled and lead away from the fire, directly to the safety zone
If there is cut-off potential, two routes should be planned and discussed
Establish new escape routes as the effectiveness diminishes
Safety Zones
Locations of adequate refuge from advancing fire
Large enough for all who might use them
Located for effectiveness
Large enough for protection without a fire shelter.
All these commonsense rules were broken on June 30,2013. That is scary considering no mention of this was made in any official report and Investigative media wild land fire fighters are about the only ones that drum on this tragic event that certainly would have been avoided by observing the commonsense safety rules.
To not do so is tantamount to murder.
Simply put :
There was no Lookout posted–the Lookout man was left in a vulnerable position two canyons over and out of sight of the crew.
There was no communication. According to official reports there was a black out of communication from when the crew left the black until they were within seconds of dying.
There certainly was no escape route once dropped of the two track and down into a box canyon choke full of manzanita.
There was no available safety zone although the Helms was touted to be. Truth was you would have died outside the home and it was a very precarious situation even inside the home. Fire damage was such that even the tires on antique vehicles burned off in the defensible space. Also, the area would not have met requirements in that definitely safety blankets would have been in order and likely useless to save lives outside the residence.
Since I am not a wild land fire fighter, my observations are open to debate. Maybe Holly can chime in on this one since she was a visitor at the Helms for 11 days some time after the fire.
Credit where credit is due: that posting of LCES was a copy and paste from googling title LCES — Your Best Defense California fire fighters
Thanks to WTKTT for showing the McKenzie photo. If I am thinking of where it was taken near their lunch spot, then it would have missed a bunch of territory. If Joy has some photos of that same perspective it would be nice to see and better if someone could find the spot then photograph and look at what could not be seen. At that time it seems the smoke was going pretty much straight up or perhaps a bit to the south.
That North Ridge of the death canyon would cover up much territory from the lunch spot area and specifically if there were any burns near the Helms. But again it will take someone to come on and let us know exactly where burns were being made and the times involved.
There is substance to what DND has said–has he or will he give us more as to times and locations of any his friends have revealed? I appreciate his posts and know he is no green horn in the wild land fire fighting area. He has plenty expertise and I believe his statements are highly credible though I would like more clarification.
On the Mendocino Complex, the report is also mostly false.
( https://wildfiretoday.com/documents/Green_Sheet_Retardant_Drop_Fatality.pdf )
WFs and FFs that were there stated that because the 2018 CA fire behavior was so extreme and the CDF was so bewildered about it, they had asked WFs and FFs to “document the fire behavior” in photos and videos for research and such.
The DIVS had a large firing operation with a lot of Resources over a large area planned and was told by Air Operations personnel and Operations personnel that they wanted to pretreat the area with VLAT retardant drops SEVERAL TIMES.
And the DIVS told the Overhead SEVERAL TIMES that they wanted NO retardant because of all his Resources spread out over a large area and because of the twists and turns in the control line which would end up with retardant where he did NOT want it. SEVERAL TIMES!
Finally, some Overhead called him on the Command channel and basically very matter-of-factually told him that they didn’t care what he thought about him wanting no retardant and that they were overriding him and that he was going to get the retardant drops anyway, so he’d better get his people out of the proposed drop zone.
Ultimately, the VLAT came in VERY, VERY LOW and dropped VERY HEAVY on top of the Engine. The SAIR is fairly accurate on the damage, death, and destruction that ensued. Several FFs inside the cab of the Engine were seriously injured and another Engine Strike Team came to assist with Basic Life Support.
These Engine guys that administered the BLS said it was “f**ked up” and the FFs inside the cab were also “f**ked up” and the overall experience “f**ked us up” dealing with all of it … and they are STILL coping with it.
They were told to sign “Non-disclosure statements” and they sternly refused and succeeded.
These are the bullets included in the CDF Green Sheet (page 5) “SAFETY ISSUES FOR REVIEW”:
“Aerial drops are inherently hazardous and caution should be used when working in areas with aircraft operations.
“Supervisors must ensure all fire line personnel are notified and acknowledge impending aerial drops (fixed wing and rotary wing). When personnel are working under a tree canopy, supervisors must ensure the drop path is cleared.
“Fire personnel need to always maintain situational awareness”
The DIVS was heeding each one of these and did his level best to be proactive. You’ll notice there is NO mention of any of the above details from those that were on that incident and recounted what they experienced. And he too is dealing with all of it … and he is STILL coping with it.
RTS-that report goes to show how determined these retardant people are to get that retardant down. I wonder would water do the same damage to individuals as the retardant–one thing it is much lighter in weight and I imagine much less dangerous when dropped on people? Something you would know whether firemen have been injured like that by water drops?
I caught the news tonight on Antarctic snows. The former pristine snows there are now tainted with micro plastic and rubber particles. So we are breathing in plastic and rubber particles along with the other chemical pollutants in the air.. You can imagine the amount of micro particles you are breathing after the retardant dumps–if they do not kill you with the actual drop, then they will get you after with plenty of micro particles in the air. Those micro particles of plastic and rubber contain some highly toxic chemicals that are constantly floating in our air and though in small amounts add up. But can you imagine being right in the area of a toxic retardant dump? You will get a good heavy dose of some of the nastiest killer toxins available.
It should be no wonder that the Yarnell area had such a high death and illness count. The cyanide created is just one of the deadliest of chemicals breathed in but you have to know it is only a small portion of the concoction that is dispersed into the smoke and air.
I see that the gold mine near me that wanted to use cyanide in their gold separation process drew in enough protesters that the mine is not going to use it after all. People are getting wise to these deadly chemicals. Yet as long as we have retardant dumped into the environment with the smoke, plastic, rubber and other toxins in the air, cancer, heart disease, COPD and other chemical related diseases will continue to plague us.
A young man will do well to become a medical practitioner–it has a great future and will continue to be short on personnel. Wild land fire fighters and others in related work along with miners and others working in chemical areas will greatly contribute to the medical profession. Sadly so will the general population since even they are getting enough of the tainted air, yet not so much.
I think Gary is onto something about the respirators and I am reminded of Zack Ashoor
died not too long after his hikes into the retardant infected area around Yarnell. He was on the respiratory board for the State of Arizona and trying to invent a system where wild land fire fighters might have a portable source of oxygen. He would have been well advised had he lived to also work on a better system to filter out the poisons the fire fighter is breathing in concentrated amounts.
Are these companies spending some of their hundreds of billions on doing something along that order? No chance since they are feeding you hidden chemicals and even denying that these chemicals they disperse are harmful to health. They have to know they are. harming the health of people, animals and aquatic animals and environment. Yet they know the longer they can maintain the farce that their retardants are harmless the more of the billions they can rake in. Certain somewhere they will have to pay out a few hundred millions for the damage they are doing but this is chump change compared to the hundreds of billions they are collecting from their toxic dispensing.
Just as the Monsanto people were never held criminally responsible for the PCB’s and other deadly chemicals they have dispersed, neither will the retardant companies be charged and they know that.
Trump celebrating the plastic factory on the Ohio river is another example of ignorance among our illustrious leader. He has to know that the whole planet is becoming toxic and in a way that is unconscionable. His supporting the Saudi Arabians to build 17 nuclear plants because he sees an opportunity to sell them plans, parts and Uranium as well as military weapons and at the same time keep oil flowing our way is a crime in itself. He has to know the Saudis en mass were celebrating the deaths of the thousands at the fall of the twin towers–what more do you need to know that you are dancing with the Devil–that Devil that wants to kill you. How can you explain except for a puny mind such as that except that greed, need to make “America Great” by such stupidity. Who really does he represent beyond the interests of the industries?
Certain the future for making America Great Again is going to be interesting but not in the way Trump and his cronies industrialists are portraying it. There will be plenty of woe and sadness now the line.
Unfortunately, it is once again to time to announce the anniversaries for two separate wildland fire fatalities, namely the 2016 Strawberry Fire on the Great Basin National Park in Nevada and the 2018 Mendocino Complex in California.
And it is also once more, me kinda slacking and being a day late in the announcements because of being committed to working on the Washington, DC AHFE Conference post with Joy.
And yes, once more there are the cover-up, lies, and whitewash associated with all wildand fire fatalities.
The Strawberry Fire records are within the Wildland Fire LLC (WFLLC) which I have never been able to provide a link, so I will provide at least the data listed on the WFLLC website. So the, just GTS the fire based on the information provided below.
Strawberry Fire – Strawberry Fire Tree Strike Fatality (2016) – Incident Date: 8/13/2016
[State]: Nevada; [Date]: 08/13/2016; [Incident Type]: Hit by Tree
#HitbyTree #Medevac #FallingOperation #HandCrews #Nevada #Fatality
Strawberry_Fire_Fatality_Learning_Review.pdf 3.28MB – Uploaded – 06-09-2017
Updated Strawberry Fire Fatality 72 Hour Report 648K – Uploaded – 08-31-2016
Strawberry Fire Fatality 72 Hour Report – Uploaded – 08-20-2016
Strawberry Fire Fatality 24 Hour Report 45K – Uploaded – 08-15-2016
Strawberry_Fire_Fatality_Press_Release.pdf 240K – Uploaded – 08-15-2016
Strawberry_Fire_USFA_Notification.pdf 147K
_______________________________
The Mendocino Complex fatality information is provided in Wildfire Today and is tilted: “Report released about firefighter fatality — trees were broken off during retardant drop
Draper City, Utah Battalion Chief Matthew Burchett was killed when a low drop uprooted an 87-foot tall tree that fell on him”
( https://wildfiretoday.com/2018/09/14/report-released-about-firefighter-fatality-trees-were-broken-off-during-retardant-drop/#comments )
___________________________
Strawberry Fire
I was a Safety Officer on the Strawberry Fire in another Division and we provided two EMTs, a Paramedic, and cell phone coordination.
In Figure 4 on page 8 of the “Learning Review Report,” the fatality occurred on top of the main ridge in the photo and the fatality occurred on a small bench, basically flat ground. However, this quote begins to set the stage for part of the cover-up: “The ground was decent at the bottom of the drainage, then got bad mid-slope, then super-bad towards the top. – Lolo IHC Superintendent”
In Figure 5 of the “Learning Review Report,” the following “confirms” their move toward cover-up with this caption: “FIGURE 5: REPRESENTATIVE TERRAIN, GROUND COVER, AND PRESENCE OF RETARDANT ON DIV A ” and Figure 6 provides an overall map of the fire and accident scene: “FIGURE 6: MAP SHOWING CREW LOCATIONS ON AUGUST 13, 2016.”
In Figure 7 on page 10 of the “Learning Review Report,” the following “confirms” their move toward cover-up with this caption: “FIGURE 7: DETAIL OF TERRAIN WHERE SAW TEAM 1 WAS WORKING.”
In Figure 8 on page 12 of the “Learning Review Report,” clearly indicates some serious obfuscation and outright lies with this ARTISTIC DRAWN IMAGE in “FIGURE 8: DETAIL OF STRIKE TREE AND SUPPORT TREE.”
On page 11 of the “Learning Review Report,” is this completely false statement regarding the actual distance from the hazard tree: “Approximately 15 feet away from his cutting position, he was struck on the top of his hard hat about 2/3 of the way up on the falling strike tree. Saw Team 1 Lead Sawyer estimates the entire sequence of events from first saw cut to the strike took less than a minute.”
The actual distance was quite a bit further, more like 50 feet “away from his cutting position.” The “he was struck on the top of his hard hat about 2/3 of the way up on the falling strike tree” portion is correct
An that pattern fits with what a SAIT “investigator” told us one time during a HS Workshop discussion about the April 1993 fatality on the USFS Santa Fe NF Buchanan Prescribed Fire in north-central New Mexico Buchanan RX, ” There is a grain of truth in everything I said. ”
In Figure A7 on page 35 of the “Learning Review Report,” clearly indicates some further serious obfuscation and outright lies with this same (Figure 8) or similar ARTISTIC DRAWN IMAGE in “FIGURE A7: SUPPORT TREE STANDING WITH LOCATION PRIOR TO CUT. THE SUPPORT TREE IS VISIBLE AT LEFT. REMNANTS OF STRIKE TREE ON GROUND. ”
On page 35 of the “Learning Review Report,” indicates a much more realistic view of the ground Justin Bebe was struck by the “FIGURE A8: LOOKING DOWNHILL FROM BASE OF STRIKE TREE TO WHERE IT CAME TO REST, SUSPENDED ABOVE THE GROUND.”
On page 39 of the “Learning Review Report,” begins “APPENDIX C: HELMET REPORT. The following report is based on interviews and visual examination of accident site photos and the helmet.” However, this photo is a completely different Lolo HS hardhat compared to the one that Bebe was wearing when he was struck by the felled dead standing hazard tree in “FIGURE C1: FRONT AND REAR VIEW OF HELMET SHOWING OUTER SHELL SURFACE SCUFFMARKS.”
On page 40 of the “Learning Review Report,” is a completely different Lolo HS hardhat suspension compared to the one that Bebe was wearing when he was struck by the felled dead standing hazard tree in “FIGURE C2: INSIDE VIEW OF HELMET SUSPENSION WITH DETACHED SUSPENSION KEYS. THE SUSPENSION RATCHET KNOB IS MISSING.”
Here, the LR disingenuously and quite falsely notes: ” However, we could not quantify the actual total force that detached these keys. ” What BS we have here! They know completely well the force, that this man was struck with that took his life – maybe not “the actual total force” .
In reality – based on statements made by the two EMTs and the Paramedic – Bebe’s helmet was shattered and the suspensions completely collapsed. They said his fatal injury was basically the result of severe neck trauma so these images of “a hardhat” do NOT reflect the true damage to a hardhat hit with this amount of force.
This was a text thread to one of the alleged “Investigators” – “Subject Strawberry Fire
Good afternoon. Pretty disappointed about the Strawberry Fire Fatality Review
“The Accident” page 11, middle paragraph regarding the “15 feet.” More like 50 feet
“Figures 5-7 regarding the typical slopes we were working on but NOT where fatality occurred.
“Figure 8 is phony idealized drawing of support tree and hang ups on a 60% to 70% slope. Totally false when compared to my photo.
“Appendix C, last 2 pages blatant >. Medical personnel stated his helmet brim on struck side and suspension were shattered, including all support clips.”
His response was: “I’m sorry to hear you are disappointed in the report. Multiple agencies and people spend a tremendous amount of time on that report including myself.”
The reply was: “Thanks for getting back to me. I have no doubts at all that you all spent a tremendous amount of time on that report. However, it sure appears to me and others that were there that there was an intent to deceive with those things I mentioned in my text to you. I’m disappointed with the CRP concept in general, except for the sense making portion.”
And there is a June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire connection to the Strawberry Fire. The Paramedic was the Fire Chief of the Yarnell FD.
>> His response was: “I’m sorry to hear you are disappointed in the report.
>> Multiple agencies and people spend a tremendous amount of time on
>> that report including myself.”
Classic non-denial denial.
Just “spending time” is never the point.
The point is to get it RIGHT.
They spent a tremendous amount of time on that report in order to deftly and deceitfully wordsmith it and tweek it enough to falsify the details and the truth.
“To respect words and their conveyance of reality is to show respect to the very foundation of reality. To manipulate words is to seek to manipulate truth and to instead choose falsity and illusion over reality. The manipulation of words is itself a violent act. …” (emphasis added) The authors confidently argue, this ongoing, unsettling truth manipulation has occurred with all wildfire SAIT Reports, Reviews, and the like where WFs were killed by fire.
Cummins, M. (2011) Words: Pieper’s “Abuse of Language, Abuse of Power.” The Alternative Path
( https://thealternatepath.org/2011/05/25/words-piepers-abuse-of-language-abuse-of-power/ )
It also reeks of the insidious term ” Doublethink ” that George Orwell describes in his novel “Nineteen Eighty-Four”: “Simply put, doublethink is the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in one’s mind at the same time. … To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to [be] contradictory and believing in both of them …”
At 19,200 gallons of retardant those pilots dropped 120 tons of retardant in 2 seconds at only 191 ft above ground. That would be enough force to knock any firefighter down and out with a broken body–likely killed from that force alone. How is it that the life of a wild land fire fighter is rated so low that men would be anywhere subjected to such a situation. That force would also definitely uproot trees and at that low elevation and that much retardant would be about like having a ton of bricks coming down on you.
The more I understand about the fire fighting system, the more I see that it is a situation where too little care is taken for the lives of the people on the line doing the grunt work. The public knows little of the absolute carelessness of situations that are not addressed properly simply because the powers that be continue to hide the facts about these situations. No remedy can be made if the truth is hidden.
It seems that anything that might impede the dropping of retardant or the reputations involved or the facts that the fire fighter is dealing with the most dangerous and toxic of situations will continue unabated simply because there is too much money on the money tree that is threatened.
The little man on the line is given a pittance of a wage and kept ignorant of the real risks to his life and future health. These companies spend millions and if need be hundreds of millions to keep their profits of hundreds of billions. With the money they make even a billion spent is resented but feasible to keep a money tree in the green. So the fight to get the truth out in these situations will be a tough go when you can see that every death or injury is treated as an accident and part of the job–no fault and no bad decisions and no bad guys at work who make up the cover stories.
I can tell you being the hero is just not enough. When later in life the hero is dying of COPD, other lung issues, heart disease, cancer, renal problems and so forth the hero part is diminished and his life is shortened. If being a hero means you have to give up ten to twenty years of your life or more to a miserable disease then it is an exercise in futility. The truth needs to be told so that solutions that can insure a full healthy life for the hero can be had. These profiteers are not out to insure that simply because it will hurt their profits.
So the battle goes mostly to the man with the gold until he is found out. And these connivers always have plan B, and likely even C, D, and F. Like the Nazi killing Jews would say, I was just obeying my orders-how can I be to blame?
And yes there is a provblem of abuse of power–the Stanford experiment of allowing cookie cutter type students play prisoners and guards proved that kids from the “norm” of society can turn into monsters once they are given power to do so. The abuse became so terrible from the guards that the two week experiment had to be stopped within only 6 days.
Those in power are quite apt and capable of abuse as we saw at Yarnell and the cover up there. People were ordered to keep their mouths shut and threatened with their careers if they were to testify of what they knew or saw. DND’s statements verify exactly of how abusive the powers that be were–even a probation officer was threatened to keep quiet. I personally heard his statements with Joy in presence where he said he received a letter that told him he best be quiet or his 3 years left to retirement could be lost. With only three years to retirement he had no choice –or loose all those years. A man that is a probation officer is not one to fabricate a story like that. But that is the abuse dished out by that system of wild land fire fighting commanders.
But the worse abuse was to order those 19 down into a death canyon and even to leave Donut in a death situation.
People want to say there is no blame–those fools are the ones that want to maintain their reputations and are doing so at the peril of the safety of those young men that have not matured in wild land fire fighting. It is quite apparent that the commanders have allowed men in positions where it is of utmost importance that they know the dangers and how to follow safety rules without question. They want to make Marsh a hero but he was a killer instead by his careless actions with his crew. It can not be accomplished unless you fudge the facts, make mum orders and threats, and provide a story then back it with half truths and black outs of information.
No matter what, the truth will come out on this one. I happen to have been exactly where Marsh and then his crew went down into that box canyon and not long before they left that two track to their demise. I saw the fire and knew the denseness of that canyon and damn well knew that once that fire reversed you would be a dead one trapped in that box canyon with no way to get back up that steep box. So do not tell me Marsh and whoever else was involved with killing those men gave any thought to the lives of those young men. Every structure in Yarnell was not worth one life of those young fire fighters. And waving a Pulaski at a flaming front of burning manzanita in the hottest and worst of dehydrated conditions when an Army would have retreated showed me that I do not want to be a wild land fire fighter that takes orders on a daily basis with strict military type obedience. You got to be kidding me when you have bosses like I saw at Yarnell.
Gary, charcoal respirators work best for mop up and working the line but moderate to extreme exertions, it is hard to get air and it filters out the particulate matter but not the dangerous carbon monoxide (C0) so I disagree with you and I am just “housewife hiker” and never will be a Round Hat Bagpipe Blower. There is indeed during mop-up and in the inversions that smoke inhalation is a concern or as you call it – an issue.
Gary, does that mean I have mangina if I think like that and disagree with you?
would carry a mask myself and as you know Gary – Sonny and I in our first hikes wore masks so we get you there,
I do not see the logic of tying DHD to Prescott Hotshots? and would he be here if he was neck up in the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra (Our Thing) ???
As a housewife hiker and new to the Fire Industry – Student of Fire I think it begins with you Gary and it only take sone so keep on that campaign….you are only doomed if you ALLOW yourself to feel that way….stay the course.
Make your bones on the PHS???? Like the Mighty Coconino were it in the day – are they still? You been out awhile…
I know Tony Sciacca is considered the “grandfathered-in” Wildland politician or advocate to train up new firefighters yet in my assessment some of the current need “re-training”….Really they do-
see this:
https://youtu.be/tAg3WuuKpTk
Do you see the PPE concerns there, Gary???
Mark Zumwalt – man he has to be about 70 nowadays – is he still bending nails? or widdling? Last I heard he was coasting by your area…
You said you knew Tony back in the day- how do you think he has changed since then?
Gary said:
So…you have convinced me to drop my one-person respirator campaign because you’re right, there are thousands of people who know everything I know and a lot more including those jerk offs up at MEDC and that certainly includes you.
WTF? so people are jerk offs if we engage with you and share our thoughts? Come on, really ? Behave…I am the biggest jerk off than there is because I always share my thoughts with you… 😉
You colored always inside the box my ass…Dr Ted Putnam is one I can see to do that not you, sir.
my mailing address is still the same and is found on http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com –
Ed Dewitt Hollenshead – wonder how he is nowadays – probably PV’ing it … be interesting to sit down and talk with him about the 80’s …
You gave Donut a coin and not me….what gives ??? I have shared more on the YH Fire than he has (sad face)
Get your site back up- seems the links to it keeps “tabbing” Eric Marsh- go see.
Try your last link with the cowboy in it.
About your health- feel read bad you face that in your retirement but please let the world any other causal factors besides the smoke that may have contributed….
You still going to Moab?
please tell me what the doctors say about your throat and lungs on this thread after you see them and your Special Lady Friend has made it a condition before she will go out to dinner with you and she has a one track mind on the subject. So…
So let her know – it should not matter – one is at your side at all times… right???
Woodsman stated:
Back to the top. I hate to make a rule but how about we leave this here so Downhillndirect can give a reply? How about it, Downhillndirect? Why did your very close friend die with his crew? I think you know or at least have an opinion on it and I believe now is the time to let us know.
I get that DHD made it to this forum but what were you thinking to ask this…and why should he have to start believing IM is the place and it is the time because you wrote it… really? That sucks. I encouraged some folks to get into the feel to write here and I think respect is lacking…when I am on the Weavers and Steed comes to me. He is happy and at peace and feels for the ones he left behind as they struggle and he had this way about him when I walked with Mando and the Weather Channel that you can still feel the presence of Steed on the Weavers and it is not funny to just come out and say come on tell us your opinions…if and when he opts to than fine…you got your inquiry out but reverse it Woodsman and someone asked you that to someone you grew up and think about it before you answer on how so far so many do not like DHD because he does not answer your direct questions and gets torn here…that’s messed up….
Woodsman said:
I’ve been informed you don’t really like answering questions, even though that was what you initially said you came here to do… but since query/response is still pretty much the engine that drives a public forum like this… it’s gonna happen.
he still comes here. Free place to come….just because people do not engage does not mean much…Diane Lomas, I asked direct stuff to you – HOW COME YOU WON’T TELL ME … I think I will pick on you Diane because you don’t answer me…you know Diane it was just an example not factual…it is just childish and ridiculous the whole topic…
Woodsman said:
There has always been a report that on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013, Jesse made a cellphone call to a male “friend” and confided to him that “Eric Marsh is going to get us killed”.
it will be in our next post this topic.
Wtktt said:
How did Jesse really feel about working with PFD / GM and/or Eric Marsh?
I actually would like to hear from all FFs and WFs that knew and worked with Steed their views there versus back channel chatters.
Sonny said:
Joy, I know you said you had plenty more to post after the Washington visit. I would like to know more of what the Washington visit entailed. Seems like those people in the thousands were also paying in the thousands to occupy a seat–was it worth the money and did you make it so?
I never got the email back with actual numbers so yes it was thousands y what other presenters stated yet you have to understand the conference was set up in ball room to conference room settings with classroom size allotment of chairs if that helps you…and I am working on post but more outdoors laboring to get rid of the detox and travel cruds…so when it happens – it will …I am in no hurry to get it out and there is also one area I am awaiting to travel and so if that happens first than it still waits but in August God-willing it will be up but nothing you have to go oh gotta see…remember Sonny- Summer is not over…also keep in mind…organizing on a ten year old pc is frustrating and tedious thing too…
It’s part of my frustration on how long it takes to find out the truth about all of the circumstances surrounding the demise of almost an entire hotshot crew. No disrespect intended. I doubt I’m the only one who would like to get some questions answered. I’m no longer willing to pay the cost of waiting around for some or attempting to prove that I have earned the right to get any. Take care.
yeah Woodsman – get that
yet I only had one of you take me up on the offer to organize my documents and it was retired RTS who stepped up and has been helping to organize the data on my ten year old computer that when I type a few words forty four seconds later it appears so I get you on frustrations
John Dougherty last Summer wanted me to dump the data to him when it is not just Fire data on my EHD- it is a needle in a haystack of my other stuff in life too so it was not something I can just move this to there – otherwise it would have been done so it is what it is…
it is to much data and RTS can confirm if he ever gets off the pc organizing and ever comes here again…
No reason to leave…I have a right to say my say and you have a right to yours… shoot we here on not even the ones who should be speaking up – its the people on the YH Fire but the next posts do offer a sneak peak into 3pm to 4 pm Fire Behavior since they always like to cut away a lot of that data … more have some and more need to speak up but it ain’t us on IM
Sigh…I was referring to the experts up at MEDC as being jerk offs because they all keep making up pseudo science reasons why respirators aren’t necessary, but they do know a lot about the subjunctive even though I don’t agree with what they know,
I was including Downhill Direct in the group of people who know a lot and don’t need me to tell them about the issues with smoke inhalation because of his fire background, especially as a hotshot with eleven years of experience, not with the group of jerk off experts who have made all of those ridiculous statements over the years from their previous smoke inhalation studies.
If a former hotshot tells me he doesn’t think respirators will work, I can accept that. If an expert from MEDC says the same thing, they are jerk offs because they haven’t been there and done that on the fire line and it’s not their health I’m worried about.
I said in my last post I’m am out of the argument game regarding respirators. Thousands of people know more about it than I do and that certainly includes Downhill Direct. Those people need to decide if WLF need or can use respirators, it was presumptuous of me to tell a hotshot with 11 years of experience he didn’t know what he was talking about, so I have tried to apologize to him but I guess I wasn’t clear. So…
I hereby and forever apologize to DHD for arguing with him about the need for respirators, I’m not going to argue with anyone anymore on this thread because I’m not participating anymore on this thread, I have done as much as I can for the memory of the crew and future WLF in my own way, and now it’s up to others who know more than I do and are more connected to the WLF on the fire line today
But let me make myself perfectly clear, I am out of ALL of the argument games, especially with you JOY, but especially with everyone else as well.
So to quote the Woodsman, “It’s part of my frustration on how long it takes to find out the truth about all of the circumstances surrounding the demise of almost an entire hotshot crew. No disrespect intended. I doubt I’m the only one who would like to get some questions answered. I’m no longer willing to pay the cost of waiting around for some or attempting to prove that I have earned the right to get any. Take care.” I’m going Jeeping.
We will be having a Trump visit to the new plastic plant being built along the Ohio River and covering 386 acres near Monaco, Pennsylvania It is amazing how so many polluting industries wind up near our rivers including the most deadly of all, the nuclear plants. But this plastic plant will be producing a million tons of plastic per year. Talk about the mother of all polluting industries, the plastic world has taken us by a storm. The dangerous chemicals used become part of the plastic anywhere from ppm to percentages depending upon the type plastic. Some poly vinyl Chlorides PVC’s have up to 40% and regardless, the dangerous chemicals do leach out into the environment. Even low level BPA from the leach can cause inflammation and heart disease. So you can bet our intelligent President will be waving the America is Great slogan and look how I created more jobs by bringing this poisonous industry right to our rivers. Yes but what will he say to the destruction of human health and the aquatic life and pollution this stuff is. And what will they do with the poisonous solutions of waste created by the plastic making process? The chemicals added to this plastic requires full face respirators. They are deadly and if inhaled are guaranteed to make you future life m
Coincidentally the Flame Retardants use many of the same and similar poisonous chemicals. I am not sure those flimsy face masks even carbon based will do much to save the wild land fire fighter from future health miseries. Full face masks are required in handling many of the chemicals used making the flame retardants and to not use them guarantees a future life of health disasters–from heart disease to cancer to renal problems and in general situations that keep the medical profession in business and the human victim in misery.
I do believe that if you are a fire fighter then you just better understand that you are devoting yourself to an occupation that will cause you to sacrifice in more ways than you can imagine. Your life will guaranteed to be shortened, if not by careless action of your bosses or accident, then by the chemicals you will breath. The latter will likely take some time to affect you if you are young but if you are already compromised, the effects may be accute.
Brominated fire retardants are most effective. However they are among the most dangerous. They produce the dioxins well known to cause all sorts of malaise. They produce chemicals abbreviated as PBDEs very similar to PCBs known to enter fat tissues and causing neuro toxic effects and thyroid dysfunction.
Supposedly the Feds are phasing out the use of Bromates in fire retardants whatever that means–in 20 years?
Then I had once mentioned that lead since its compounds degrade in specific gravity only to a small degree would be good weight additives to fire retardant. Gary had informed us that the problem with just water is that it disperses in the air thinly so it is hard to lay a good line of it whereas fire retardant is heavier and will lay a better line. To my surprise in researching retardants, lead is added to some fire retardants. Is it one of the secret ingredients? You realize that lead in gasoline was “phased out” as well since the lead does all kinds of destruction to human health.
How much is 10 or 20 years of a human life worth–to him, to the government, or to the companies that make and distribute these poisons. How much can you compensate a person willing to work under the conditions that guarantee a shorter life span? Seems to me like the fire fighter ought to be one of the highest paid individuals on the planet–at least it would have to be for me since I do value my life highly and that even after being dead twice.
In other words what puny wages we are paying these people subjected to the chemicals and smoke–much like our coal miners and uranium miners–in later life shortened in life or commiserated for their occupational caused diseases.
Then to think we would take imprisoned people and use them without wage to battle these fires. We are indeed an inhumane population to allow such.
It is the great good of truth that saves lives and makes things right. The villains spreading the toxins are not making America Great Again.
And can you imagine–5000 new jobs at that toxic plastic plant that is slated to produce a million tons of plastic per year. So Trump can not only tout his efforts to make America Great Again with the plastic plant but can you imagine 5000 plastic plant employees walking around Trump with their full face respirators on? I am certain they will have a full face one on Trump–will we be able to hear his glory speech of the great thing he did for America?
Not only that he created a whole new industry in manufacturing full face respirators. And think also of the greater need of world wide industries to clean up the pollutants in the environment. Somebody has to clean up the dead fish, make a stab at cleaning up hundreds of square miles of swirling plastic in our oceans and land and think of all the new medical people needed to treat the increase in cancers and heart disease from the pollutants. Yes Trump you do well for the economy and the fellow needing a job. Maybe we will all soon need full face respirators–that will really be an economy booster.
Really long sigh…..Joy, I have stated many times that respirators can’t be worn during arduous activity. Do you read what I write and if you do, how is your comprehension at understanding simple concepts?
I have always written that respirators CAN NOT be worn during arduous activity…what the FUCK is wrong with you people and WHY do I have to keep defending something I never wrote? This is because it likes breathing into a paper bag and you would pass out because you can’t get enough new air in fast enough, I fucking know that…I wore a fucking respirator for 7 years as a hotshot…why the FUCK do I have to keep repeating myself?
But…respirators can always be worn during mop up and even during many other times like going into a porta potty, believe me, you will thank me that you have one. And they can ALWAYS be worn during mop and that is BY FAR when WLF are subjected to the very worst smoke and particle inhalation.
And FYI…that is because NOBODY works hard or “arduously” at mop up!
And FYI, I often just kept my dangling from around my knock on one strap so that during odd times when smoke came and went I could just reach up with one hand and temporarily hold it over my nose and mouth, YOU PEOPLE ARE NOT using your imaginations to look for the grey areas where respirators will work, you keep trying to make everything black and white, by saying respirators can’t work and I say you are full of shit because I made one work for seven years and it really helped me. Now…as far as the rest of you go…FUCK OFF and go and do whatever you want. You have been warned what could happen to you…case closed. You all have to keep one thing in mind. My race is over….I WON!
Oh…and one more thing Joy. A challenge coin plus sever WLF patchedIS what I have been promising I am going to send you for about a year now. It’s on its way, just as soon as I get everything boxed up. There is one for RTS, Sonny and the rest of your posse for the next time you all get together for your annual fire site meeting.
I left all of the others with Willis to distribute like the one that went to Sad Sack.
This respirator thing is of utmost importance. Too many wild land fire fighters of long service are proof of that. If you check the statistics you will find that they as a group are bound to suffer in later years. And when you are young you do not have the knowledge and wisdom of the fellow that had been there and is now experiencing the health disasters brought on by the combination of smoke and chemicals he/ she is exposed to.
Someone is going to get deservedly wealthy if they can invent a respirator that is not cumbersome to wear. I had invented a few things and drawn them out–but this one will take a guy with some real savvy. And that person will be a certain hero since these chemicals and smokes are definite killers.
Oh, and forget the retardant companies–to invent something like a good respirator with their billions–no way–that would be admitting how their inert claims are a lie.
I do listen
🎶 whistle why I work 🎶
I got the verbiage of my reply using your words silly you…
You keep sharing…and glad you are back from Moab😛
Yes, if you have an old computer time to upgrade. I bought a gaming fast one on Ebay for something like $500 –3.2ghz then for $50 found a small Lenova 3.9ghz and almost new but even a bit faster than the gamer. Simple to plug in a SSD hard drive and if you do that even to your old computer it will seem like a new one it boosts the speed up so much. I got a 1TB for about a hundred and added 32GB memory. This shit just plugs in once you take the cover off and if you add say 8 GB memory with that SSD hard drive you will have a buzz saw since you are hooked up with good internet. I have hot spot only and Verizon is stingy as hell on that giving the slowest download possible that way–so watch movies off it but will likely put dish in instead since I don’t like the interruptions slow does to streaming.
I am using eucalyptus oil for the breathing problem and it seems to help quite a bit. Don’t order Swanson’s since it seems weak and I don’t like plastic containers for water or oil. They do use Benzine making their plastics and you do get it leached into your product despite what they plastic people say. Yeah it is small but small becomes big over time.
Joy–you take your time on that report,. If it were anything great you would have already posted. Too much BS for those thousands people paid–You can bet Eric was in attendance–hope he listened too. I would not expect Donut to be there unless he was one of the instructors. He gets paid for his valuable information. (his opinion, not mine)
Yes, too bad Dr. Ted does not contribute–he has plenty, but maybe Buddha says keep quiet. There is so much that would help the young wild land fire fighter to stay alive. Why I like Gary’s and others posts. They are putting out information that gives new people and even experienced in the wild land fire fighting vital information–some information that is bound to save lives. DND is much appreciated–he has plenty to share and it is going to help many.
Joy you have done much–if you never did another thing you deserve a place among the heroes of wild land fire fighters. The information you have produced is similar to WTKTT and John Daugherty in value. If anyone deserves awards there are all listed as contributors here on Investigative Media. I know there are others out there that ought to join the heroes that post here. Saving lives is the name of the game. What has been allowed in free sharing on IM will do just that.
Gary, try some of that eucalyptus oil–seems to open up the lungs and natural treatment. Maybe I just think so but if thinking so works, good. I hate being limited in my air department. I have been rubbing some on my chest so I wind up smelling it as well but don’t taste the stuff. I believe it will keep mosquitoes off but might attract ladies.
Downhill Direct said,
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-480592
And I say,
Well…given your background I am so much more disappointed in your attitude towards charcoal respirators than I was when I thought you were a Round Hat Bagpipe Blower and I feel so much worse that you would say something like the answer to smoke inhalation issues is for WLF is to rotate out of the smoke…which just isn’t an option based on my experience.
I’m sorry you weren’t able to wear one for more than five minutes and I don’t know how you were able to make it on a hotshot crew for eleven (11) years with your mangina? You must have been with the Prescott Hotshots and you still work on the Prescott so you are up to your neck in the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra (Our Thing)…am I right? I do want you to know however…that you AREN’T being helpful in my “Respirator For Every WLF” campaign. Ahhhh…fuck it. It was doomed to failure anyway, so…fugetaboutit.
I’m sorry you had to make your bones on the Prescott Hotshots brother, but not everybody can be off the Mighty Coconino and at least you didn’t work on the Payson Hotshots…am I right? Did you work for Tony Sciacca, Mark Zumwalt or Tom Tobin? Tony and I used to know each other back in the day, but I bet he’s plenty pissed off at me now…probably just like almost everybody else I used to know and the few guys I still do. Tony and I even ran into each other out at the Fire Center after I retired and was still livin’ in Prescott. I went out there to apply for an AD job workin’ off hours in dispatch, or the warehouse, or whatever. I was hopin’ to get a job driven’ supplies out to fire camps, but since I wake up in a new world almost every morning, I never followed through on it. Were you around when Zumwalt almost cut his head off when that chainsaw kicked back on him…ole scar neck they called him back on the day? Did you work with Bud Shaver by any chance…I used to work for him and we go way back? Anyway…that’s all of the guys I know from the Prescott Hotshots that I can think of right now at least, I bet there’s about zero degrees of separation between you and me and a lot of the same guys…am I right?
You must know my ole buddy Tom Tobin pretty good huh? Tom was like me and went into the dispatch office when he couldn’t make it on the fire line any more. Say…have you ever seen that photo I posted years ago of Tobin and me when we were 19 out at Camp Wood on the now defunct Walnut Creek Ranger Station? Talk about a couple of goof balls, nobody would have ever believed they were lookin at two future hotshot crew bosses, even if I was an accidental one…am I right?
http://ourfiregods.com/CampWood.html
I’m the one in the nice clean U.S. Forest Service uniform that I gave up to be a hotshot FNG, WTF…Over? Tom is the guy I’m leaning on and who is pointing at me. Also shown in the photo from right to left is Darrell Tersey and Tom Lyman. I don’t remember the guy in the cowboy hat. The rest of us were all Prescott High School graduates, by even so, I’m surprised I can remember their names since I can’t remember what I did yesterday.
You do however…prove my point. In the macho curious and confused world of WLF…they wouldn’t even wear hard hats unless those were mandated Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). And if given the choice, most wouldn’t wear other PPE such as gloves, earplugs, goggles, or even fire clothes either. I know for sure most of them wouldn’t carry fire shelters. I was the same way when I was a WLF, long on attitude…short on good sense. Except for the fire shelters, those should all be fed into wood chippers…am I right? But…if God didn’t make people short on good sense…we wouldn’t have any WLF at all when you compare the investment versus return for doing the job.
So…you have convinced me to drop my one-person respirator campaign because you’re right, there are thousands of people who know everything I know and a lot more including those jerk offs up at MEDC and that certainly includes you. Nobody needs me to tell them about the dangers of smoke inhalation anyway…am I right? And even if it was a successful campaign, in the macho curious and confused world of WLF’s everyone would just cuss me out anyway because they would have one more piece of mandatory PPE they don’t want to wear…am I right?
I will say one thing about you though. You are one of the few people I have “met” who has bigger balls than I do because you’re right about one thing…you are writin’ a lot more than I would when I was a 462. Back in those days, I always colored inside the lines and I would be like almost everybody else…silent on the issues except among my own kind. Only we understood us, so nobody’s else’s opinion on WLF matters is needed or welcomed…am I right?
So…email me your address because I have some WLF memorabilia I would like to send you that includes a very rare and collectible challenge coin and some patches. This is a very special offer because the only people (other than a few special people in my life) who have received these coins and patches up until now are Darrell Willis, Ed Hollenshead and each of the families of the dead 19 dead Granite Mountain Hotshots.
[email protected]
Oh…and Sad Sack, I even gave him a set. I bet he was a pretty good hotshot and he didn’t ask for his fate…am I right? I was going to make up a line of WLF merchandise to sell on my website, but since I wake up in a new world so often, well…you know the rest. But…there was a minimum order when I had the prototypes of the challenge coin, patches and even one version of my bumper stickers made. So…I have a bunch I need to get rid of, although I have been promising to send a bunch of them to Joy now for a couple of years for her to distribute to RTS, Sonny and some of the others in her posse. But…I’m getting real close to putin’ hers in the mail any day now and I will mail yours at the same time. 🙄
Anyway…I have taken down my website because I am suspending my one-person respirator and I’m not going to put it back up until I spend some serious time working on it because right now…it’s a real mess. But…just do me one favor…don’t feel sorry for me about my COPD because I still have it better than most people do. There isn’t anywhere I want to hike to anyway…I can Jeep everywhere I want to go. I’m off the reservation and I’m not going back, my X let me go for time served, my 3 children are all raised, are on their own (thank God) and doing well. So…my time and my money are my own and I gettin’ ready to go Jeepin’ in Moab and beyond.
http://ourfiregods.com/
And I’m not going to tell you what the doctors say about my throat and lungs on this thread after I see them, because I can tell you right now what they are going to say. You have Chronic Bronchitis related COPD which is irreversible and there is no cure for it. I have heard it before and the only reason I am going again…is because my Special Lady Friend has made it a condition before she will go out to dinner with me and she has a one track mind on the subject. So…
Back to the top. I hate to make a rule but how about we leave this here so Downhillndirect can give a reply? How about it, Downhillndirect? Why did your very close friend die with his crew? I think you know or at least have an opinion on it and I believe now is the time to let us know.
Reply to Downhillndirect post on August 7, 2019 at 11:56 am
>> Downhillndirect said…
>>
>> Jesse ( Steed ) was a dear friend…
>>
>> Long before he became a Hotshot he and a small group of friends
>> and I navigated our teens and twenties together.
>> That same group of friends all became FF’s and WFF’s.
Glad to see you don’t seem to be having any more technical problems with posting messages.
I’ve been informed you don’t really like answering questions, even though that was what you initially said you came here to do… but since query/response is still pretty much the engine that drives a public forum like this… it’s gonna happen.
So forget the mysterious videos and/or the supposed manual burnouts for a moment.
I believe you also said you wanted to talk about Jesse, and tells us some things we might not be aware of regarding his relationship with GM and/or Eric Marsh?
Do you know what was really going on with the two of them?
How did Jesse really feel about working with PFD / GM and/or Eric Marsh?
Also…
There has always been a report that on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013, Jesse made a cellphone call to a male “friend” and confided to him that “Eric Marsh is going to get us killed”.
Are YOU that “friend” who might have received that phone call?
If not… do you know anything about that?”
”
Let’s hear it.
Reply to Downhillndirect post on August 7, 2019 at 11:56 am
>> Downhillndirect said…
>>
>> Jesse ( Steed ) was a dear friend…
>>
>> Long before he became a Hotshot he and a small group of friends
>> and I navigated our teens and twenties together.
>> That same group of friends all became FF’s and WFF’s.
Glad to see you don’t seem to be having any more technical problems with posting messages.
I’ve been informed you don’t really like answering questions, even though that was what you initially said you came here to do… but since query/response is still pretty much the engine that drives a public forum like this… it’s gonna happen.
So forget the mysterious videos and/or the supposed manual burnouts for a moment.
I believe you also said you wanted to talk about Jesse, and tells us some things we might not be aware of regarding his relationship with GM and/or Eric Marsh?
Do you know what was really going on with the two of them?
How did Jesse really feel about working with PFD / GM and/or Eric Marsh?
Also…
There has always been a report that on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013, Jesse made a cellphone call to a male “friend” and confided to him that “Eric Marsh is going to get us killed”.
Are YOU that “friend” who might have received that phone call?
If not… do you know anything about that?
Good questions WTKTT. DHD is a great person to help get the truth out and so much hinges on his knowledge of what happened that day. We can only appreciate his candor and your questions so important that were never asked by the investigative teams–or if they were had been redacted from public view.
Joy, I know you said you had plenty more to post after the Washington visit. I would like to know more of what the Washington visit entailed. Seems like those people in the thousands were also paying in the thousands to occupy a seat–was it worth the money and did you make it so?
I would not be hesitant in getting the posts out. You had mentioned you live there so you need to be careful of information you have on the Yarnell Death Situation. The thing is you have already been vilified as have most on this web site. But the hatred spewed your way can not be increased by any factor–it will always be there with some that hold on to their tunnel vision and closed minds that refuse to look at other alternative views and facts to back those views up. What I mean to say is any new information you have to reveal will not increase or decrease the disdain some have for your participation. Truth will garner that hatred–but something that will eat more on the haters than you and your truth revelations
SO FIRE THEM TO US!.
I have taken my tumeric and rose hip vitimin C and some ground mesquite beans so I can handle the truth.
This site can come off so crazy at times
but we all are learning –
I know I am all the time.
I feel the site is not tainted due to rants and vents over time like some do….
I take ownership for my words
I know when I am wrong
I know I am flawed
This site as showed me that.
Mistake 1 – lesson learned
Mistake Twice – lesson lost.
We learn from it and we move on from it…
YCSO deputies were dispatched to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial trail near Yarnell regarding a 59-year-old woman suffering from heat stroke.
https://youtu.be/R5DHWfUxquE
Air Lifted From Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial Trail this week-
It was 103 degrees on that event.
On June 30, 2013 the temps were higher with much smoke…
Air lifted Joy? That poor lady–she will get a bill for something like $48,000. That was what had to be paid for my last copter ride from down the hill 9 miles to Prescott–If she went to Phoenix it will be more. Hope she has good insurance or is a war time Vet. And 20% is still $9,600 if they pay that by Blue Shield.
Downhillndirect got me doing some reading. Try not to throw up when you read this link. Dotson, you’re a hack…
https://wildfirelessons.wordpress.com/2018/05/29/underslung-heroes/
…and…….guess who was a member of the module who helped light what turned into the Cerro Grande fire (the $billion one)?
What for it….
Holly Neil
Small world.
I can’t help define the personal motivation of one person to protect the reputations of EM and GM than that. Any questions? Didnt think so.
In response to Dotsons article shaming all of us who want to make observations of the facts and tell the truth about them (despite the overt acts of management preventing us from doing so) in order to prevent future deaths, on May 29, 2018 at 8:27pm, Holly Neill made this comment:
“Underslung Heroes hits very close to home. I currently work with John Maclean on a book about the Yarnell Hill fire, and I think the “bad apple” points between Mr. Gleason and Mr. Marsh are very interesting and relevant to the Yarnell Hill fire discussion.
I was on the BAND Fire Use Module in 2000 and we lit the Cerro Grande fire. For me, one of the greatest gifts to come from this terrible tragedy was the opportunity to work with Paul Gleason. A lasting lesson and strong impression I have carried with me for 18 years is of Paul’s great character and integrity during and after the fire.
It was clear to me that efforts were made to protect his level of involvement, but he would have none of it. He went on to teach and talk to as many fire folks as possible, about his role in Cerro Grande and his level of responsibility and accountability.
Paul was a true fire manager and leader, with special qualities of honesty, transparency and a deep desire to make a difference. It takes a rare courage and wisdom to admit “There is no way to get around how uncomfortable it is to stand accountable for your decisions”, and then go out and actually do it, stand accountable. Mr. Gleason, you are missed.”
after reading all this … my next three posts I have been cracking at since I got back will cover some of this topic …
Holly Neill (May 2018) and John MacLean (July 2019) are on different paths than the Yarnell Hill Eyewitness
and John told me when presenting to him that I want him to help me bridge a sensitive area and he told me that if I thought that – it is a dead end.
He would have been the best person to stitch that area together.
I learned something this Summer …
Woodsman, they are on a different path and John does not like anyone who participates to IM …
It’s been obvious to me for many years that those 2 and a host of others are on a different path.
Reply to Woodsman post on August 7, 2019 at 6:03 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> In response to Dotsons article shaming all of us who want
>> to make observations of the facts and tell the truth about
>> them (despite the overt acts of management preventing
>> us from doing so) in order to prevent future deaths, on
>> May 29, 2018 at 8:27pm, Holly Neill made this comment:
>>
>> “Underslung Heroes hits very close to home. I currently
>> work with John Maclean on a book about the Yarnell Hill
>> fire, and I think the “bad apple” points between Mr. Gleason
>> and Mr. Marsh are very interesting and relevant to the
>> Yarnell Hill fire discussion.
And directly underneath Neill’s comment is the third ( of only 3 comments ) about this yet-another-leap by WFLLC writer Travis Dotson…
————————————————————————-
Robert L. Withrow, B.S. in Forestry
October 31, 2018 at 10:12 pm
I find it difficult to make ANY comparison between ( Eric ) Marsh and Paul ( Gleason ).
From what I have read and heard, Eric ( Marsh ) was USED to working on the edge.
The assistant fire chief for Prescott said that he thinks Eric believed it was worth the risk to go and protect Yarnell rather than stay in the black as he was told. Pauil would never have done that. I worked for Paul and Chuck Hartley in 1966 on the Dalton hot shots. Paul was both crew pusher and lead sawyer and I was his swamper. He was tough, fun, and a student of fire from an early age. On November 1, 1966 we were dispatched to the Loop Fire. We cut line from about noon on and were assigned to cut a sector of line to tie into the county. Paul and Chuck scouted the line and turned down the assignment and said it was too dangerous. You just didn’t turn down assignments in those days. El Cariso took the assignment and the rest was history. Chuck and Paul saved my life. Two years later we were both squad bosses on Dalton. Paul was more focused on safety than anyone I have ever known except perhaps Chuck Hartley. When Paul died we lost a great firefighter and a great man. I lost a great friend. Rest well Paul.
————————————————————————
And just FYI… the Robert ( Bob ) Withrow who left that comment above refuting ANY comparison between Paul Gleason and Eric Marsh is exactly who he says he is.
Someone who knew Paul Gleason VERY well.
Robert ( Bob ) Withrow’s bio goes like this…
He worked on the Baldy District of the Angeles National Forest as a ‘Dalton Hotshot’ from 1966 through 1970.
During that time, Chuck Hartley was the Dalton HS Superintendent and Paul Gleason was first a crewmember, then a squad boss right alongside Bob Withrow.
In 1971, Withrow earned his BS in Forestry from Northern Arizona University.
From 1971 to 1973, he was the Helitack Foreman on the Mount Hood National Forest.
From 1974 to 1975, he worked directly for the National Interagency Fire Center ( NIFC ).
From 1976 to 1977, he was FAI-BLM.
In 1978, he became the first Chief of Wildfire Management ( Forester IV ) for the U.S. Territory of Guam, and remained in that position until 1980.
Etc…
The problem is there really are bad apples and to deny that fact is to deny reality. There are some places in LA you just do not want to walk down the street at any time else you run into a bad apple or maybe even a gang of them. Some of these bad apple types can be found in any place–even law enforcement and fire fighting. If you do not know about the New Orleans situation or the New York situations where law enforcement had to be cleaned up by the FBI then you have been born yesterday. There were murderers and robbers in them just as in the fire fighting business there are arsonists–some that even became murderers by their actions. There are also wild land fire fighters who had been careless with safety and would end up committing mass murder for their willingness to wantonly risk their crews lives. I believe Eric Marsh and likely his foreman would have been charged had they lived. To deny the facts is also to deny changes that would save future lives. How can you be a hero by killing your crew for the reasons they did?
And speaking of bad apples, Pepsi is using aspertane as an artificial sweetener in its soft drinks–something that coke had done for years. Aspertane is one of Monsanto’s money babies. Monsanto was behind the Phos Chek invention starting 1962, they were also behind the PCB’s of the 30,s and it was proven that they knew of all the dangerous diseases that toxin was doing. Monsanto also created the Agent Orange that reduced the population of Viet Nam by millions as well as a host of our American Soldiers that served in that war and were exposed to it. Monsanto is behind the GMO,s and now Roundup that is another cancer causing agent. They use their own scientists to present their product investigations which Federal agents continue to accept despite the fact that Monsanto has repeatedly lied about its chemical products to keep them on the market.
I wondered why Monsanto would give up such a money tree as the Retardant Business is? That is a Global business and with the world wide distribution and increase in wild fires, the Israeli’s have to be making a killing. Perhaps they have some connections still to the business like supping the toxic chemicals involved in the making of Phos Chek.
If you google Monsanto you will get some gut wrenching information about their practices and you will see that the idea that there are no bad apples out there is quite naive.
Just to give you an idea the aspertane that is making Monsanto so much money breaks down as copied from an article about it from the Monsato report:
“Searle’s (subsidiary of Monsanto) real goal though was to have aspartame approved as a soft drink sweetener since exhaustive studies revealed that at temperatures exceeding 85 degrees Fahrenheit, it “breaks down into known toxins Diketopiperazines (DKP), methyl (wood) alcohol, and formaldehyde.”(4), becoming many times deadlier than its powdered form!”
That stuff is foods and soft drinks and it is more addictive than cocaine. I don’t know about you but I do not want anything that breaks down into to three deadly toxins at 85 degree F when body temperature is about 98.1F at its norm. Yet our government food watchers are allowing it. How is that possible? Well Monsanto has hired many of the key ones at exorbitant salaries and puts millions into the lobby system and offers up its own scientific evidence touting that their aspertane is harmless to health.
Don’t believe them because each of those three chemicals created at 85F are extreme poisons even in small amounts. Wood alcohol is known to cause blindness. The formaldehyde is embalming fluid and the DNA is a proven carcinogen.
Known effects of aspartame ingestion are: “mania, rage, violence, blindness, joint-pain, fatigue, weight-gain, chest-pain, coma, insomnia, numbness, depression, tinnitus, weakness, spasms, irritability, nausea, deafness, memory-loss, rashes, dizziness, headaches, seizures, anxiety, palpitations, fainting, cramps, diarrhoea, panic, burning in the mouth. Diseases triggered/mimmicked include diabetes, MS, lupus, epilepsy, Parkinson’s, tumours, miscarriage, infertility, fibromyalgia, infant death, Alzheimer’s… Source : U.S. Food & Drug Administration.(5)
But is that stopping Pepsi and other companies from using it in their products? And is the government FDA doing anything to stop it? Absolutely not and neither will they stop the use of Phos Chek. These people do not mind paying out hundreds of millions when they are making profits in the hundreds of billions. They see that as part of their business costs–minimal at that compared to their profits and to hell with the public health–they are helping the medical profession and reducing the population–maybe that is what they intend to do.
Be aware of how just a small temperature change can produce results of even more toxic chemicals than the originals. And I am not born yesterday Mr. “Don’t be blaming the bad apple person”–there are more than a few in places they ought not to be. Some are even presented as sheep yet are murderers in a high degree.
Correction DKP instead of DNA concerning Aspertane–but you can bet it works on DNA in a bad way.
And a small follow up–Remember the Clyclamates used as sweeteners that were banned finally –“Abbott Laboratories claimed that its own studies were unable to reproduce the 1969 study’s results, and, in 1973, Abbott petitioned the FDA to lift the ban on cyclamate”. That while the proven studies showed rats and monkeys and people infected with cancerous tumors after using it for a few months. They did not give one damn knowing they were getting people sick. So what did coke, pepsi and others do–they sold their products to Mexicans where there was no ban.
This and the Aspertane ordeal goes to show that you best not rely on either the FDA or the Companies dispersing these chemicals to understand what the true effects they will have on your health. WTKTT said it is time we start independent studies of what the Phos Chek and other chemicals are really doing to our health. But what will it take for the general public to understand the magnitude of criminal acts these chemical companies are guilty of. Media seems to be the best answer to educating the masses–are there any other suggestions?
Once again, asleep at the wheel and slackening in remembering a classic wildland fire tragedy yesterday, August 5, 1949.
( https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/mann-gulch )
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Gulch_fire )
What are you thinking? What are YOU doing?
I’m thinking that it looks like a wall of fire, and not a bunch of spot fires, coming up at us from the slope below.
I’m about to be in front of the Board of Inquiry and ready to give my testimony, however, I have been told that the District Ranger does not have to face the Board members, that he must testify first, and that none of us are allowed to contradict his testimony.
That sure sounds a lot like the genesis of the “conclusion first and then the ‘facts’ to support the conclusion.” Sixty years ago!
Sonny- this kid plays the guitar like you:
https://youtu.be/9mew997-5lQ
you never disappoint…keep strumming, sir…
because of you, I still take time out of my days to take the time to watch the show we watched when you recovered from being taking off life support….
Smiles.
there is not another Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny)
here is another video insert that reminds me strongly of you playing guitar Sonny
you are a natural genius…
https://youtu.be/JI0DFK7-d40
(mind you can I insert I find you to be a BETTER player with a little help from a friend… :; )
https://youtu.be/YaTUwiHYBI0
Sonny- listening to this kid it brings me back to your cowboy campfires and as the hours progressed and you went to gather another piece of wood and tossed it on the fire and the embers would scatter to the skies lighting the dark with vibrant colors and the moment you grabbed your guitar I would hear the most enchanting moments to my life and this kid reminds me so much how you played that I do not think the world knows how genuinely gifted you are once the sun went down and one sat under the moonlit stars with you – very few got to see those moments – because they wanted to know the GMHS trails that day yet Ered Matthews saw it -because he went back to the area we were crashing as we looked for missing fella Mark Danielson then in the Congress desert. You were like listening to classical and Spanish ancestral tones and your “Green Back Dollar- won’t you come back home…”
Thank you for showing me I could pioneer in a modern world.
I have a lion in the area lately and I feel and smell and see the scat so close that I feel your presence within that … It so reminds me of days gone by…
Sorry for the losses near you – El Paso Texas.
God put us up on the Weavers, Sonny…that is for sure…
Yes I had seen that kid play on the Americas Got Talent show. And I still plunk away on my guitar now and again. My dogs give me a strange eye at times unless I sing a dog song. How much is that doggie in the window? Mine were free from homes that no longer wanted them or could keep them. Those two pups that now weight at least 80 pounds are water dogs–soak in that cow tank and love it.
I miss Charlie and Cowboy–shot by the rancher here–but that is the law in New Mexico. Fact is that these dogs might have gotten out but I had watched them around cattle–the cows did not pay them any attention–but I had not given enough time to train them to stay away from ranchers and cattle areas–and you can understand the rancher view of things. That is his livelihood and anything that might threaten that he is likely to kill. It is kind of like the Yarnell ordeal in a way–no consideration–just kill anything that gets in the way of your livlihood and that is why you saw so many bosses killing the truth of what killed the GMHS crew.
The reason that the authors do not espouse the truth in full is because their livelihood is in writing and they must present what is acceptable to public opinion and what the fire fighting gods have presented that the public believes. To not do so would mean that they would have to face poor public image and likely poor sales as well.
What is really perplexing is how few of the people that know the facts and truths about all the redactions, presentations of half-truths, orders of mum, and threats have continued to keep their mouths shut even after 6 years. Considering that the children have a lifetime of suffering without a father figure, you have to think there are a bunch of cowards out there. That the truth is denied these people, especially loved ones and the fact that this denial will cause future wild land fire fighter deaths makes me state it that way. I could never hold back what I know and saw that day and have a clean conscience.
I know I have said I am in course to train to be a Law and Fire Investigator yet it seems what I said early on here, Diane –
Fire Deep Ecologist seems to be the FUTURE
Fire Deep Ecologist of the Wildfire Reader book that Diane Lomas was reading – what was your take on that, Diane, when you read about that in the book?
What is fire ecology?
Fire ecology is a branch of ecology that focuses on the origins of wildland fire and it’s relationship to the environment that surrounds it, both living and non-living. A wildland fire is defined as any fire that is burning in a natural environment. Fire ecologists recognize that fire is a natural process, and that it often operates as an integral part of the ecosystem in which it occurs.
——————–
So when you think about it that is where with my tools and Enterprise AI “Wtktt” – we would make a solid team “in person’ there –
This Summer I applied to be a mentee and specified in my application “fire ecology” because I think with my tools and training I would fall smack in that area
yet I would need Wtktt organizational skills and why I say we would make a great team – plus you have shown here you ‘succeed in the fact that it does not matter what industry or size – you have shown here the must use data to continue’ to innovate in the unfolding of the YH Fire – ‘your analytics and “machine learning” model deployment/management’- it is unique.
we know John Doughtery owns the site ( I have donated financially in the history of the site and I hope others have as well to keep this alive and running )
and it has been obvious you are a branch off John in recent weeks when a hoax or hack happened and then just say “it’s all gravy” …
I believe you yet I also believe it could have been a possible ploy not yet known…
I am here to protect avatars from public articles and display of full names. Why? Some spent hard work here giving purely
HOWEVER….
– in my next post on my blog I plan to expose one of the avatars of IM not to be a snitch but to show John MacLean that when he stated my participation and my association to IM drew his line with me as a “dead end” – I plan to explain that fully on my next post. I want John MacLean to know some tied to him are an avatar on IM and I will expose them in my next post. There should be no dead ends or lines drawn when trying to get evidence to the front on a tragedy where 19 men died and I gave in person recently some data to John MacLean and it was left with a handshake of “dead end”…
Why not just say you do not like my persona but why use IM as the cop out when people from your own team participated as an avatar here and that was your excuse in our talk.
The Smithsonian in DC offers a lot data … and this video helps explain a little on fire ecologist, Diane : https://youtu.be/K1g8s3hlwDc
However wtktt – if we ever became a team we could not be tied to an agency – it would need to be as an independent…with my human capacities for learning and perceptions and interaction with the locals and firefighters all at a level of complexity and what you are capable of- it supersedes any SAIR or ADOSH – OSHA reports…or C R A P ….we can embed a new beginning of your AI methodology into the very core of me knowing the actual peoples…
you game wtktt to be the new kind of Fire Deep Ecologist?
We can make the Wildfire Reader book pale in what we can do and become…
you agree?
😉
oh and one more thing…name one fire historically where 19 died and 2 external hikers not related to the fires system were out there watching it all…and they lived to talk about it…name any of the prior fires where you met a set of hikers who kept at it to ensure the data is pushed to the front and we do not gain shit from it except bullshit at times…we even took the time out to learn the rhythm and style flows to the Fire Industry…
just saying…
my apologies – the ” ‘ ” above and most of the verbiage was tied to ABOUT page on Dataiku and I failed to insert credit were credit is due-
I want the world to know the young today have this tech way about them I could never have-
yet I can tie in the hands on the ground to the plate where the young seem to not have and that was the “walk away” I had with wtktt yesterday-
I know Gary has the instant “attack” mode on Direct Downhill person yet I really doubt you would -have you got to know him … yet you do this time to time treatment and I have fall under the wrath at times and yet I really think Gary no sabbaticals needed – we all have our own perceptions and lifestyles … I mean we could not do IM without you…
And as we go down the slippery slopes and or the rabbit holes we all have learned each of our realities do no match up … I learned that in the “audience” ( John Mac Lean ) and his take away of IM.
For those who think WTKTT is the owner of this site than I can state you need to do more research and digging because if you look at key words wtktt said over time would not lead you to long time running Arizona Journalist – John E. Dougherty.
If you have paid attention to 2010 than you would know WHO wtkkt is-
he gave so many clues over time-
and from the way back data-
[2010] ‘As one of America’s premier investigative journalists, John has served the public by holding Arizona’s most powerful politicians and government agencies accountable for more than 25 years.
John’s investigations and articles have played a major role in Arizona’s recent political history and directly impacted Senator John McCain, former Arizona Governor Fife Symington, fundamentalist polygamist leader Warren Jeffs and Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio.’
Thank you Mr. Dougherty to you and all around you who has taken this time to “DEDICATE” to this site – it matters!
WHO IS JOHN DOUGHERTY?
‘John’s 1989 story in the Dayton Daily News triggered the Keating Five Senate Ethics Committee hearings that nearly ended Senator McCain’s career.
In the 1990s, John’s series for the Phoenix New Times uncovered Gov. Symington’s use of multiple financial statements to disguise his crumbling development business from lenders.
John’s stories attracted international attention and unleashed widespread public outcry that finally forced law enforcement to take action. Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs is now behind bars.
In the summer of 2004, John revealed that Arpaio had $1 million in secret real estate holdings. John also described Arpaio’s flagrant abuse of power aimed at his opponents and a reported on a systemic pattern of campaign corruption. Arpaio retaliated and convinced former County Attorney Andrew Thomas to launch an ill-advised grand jury probe that abruptly ended following its exposure in the New Times in 2007 and loud public outcry.
The Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office is now the target of a federal grand jury investigation related to possible abuse of power.
John’s freelance stories have appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, High Country News and the Arizona Republic and he’s been a frequent contributor to KJZZ and KAET’s Horizon. John has been named Arizona Journalist of the Year three times and won the prestigious Don Bolles Award for Investigative Reporting on two occasions.
John’s father, Jack, is a U.S. Naval Academy graduate (1954)
(THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE, SIR), and his mother – a homemaker.
John was named to the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism Hall of Fame in 1996.
I am THAT homemaker – I keep my records and have that proof – do a background and it will prove that – For people like his mother I want her to know I will not give up on “us homemakers of the world” as when you place oneself in the spot I have – I get being picked on or all the judgments of what credentials I lack – if it was not for InvestigativeMEDIA participants I would not be currently being trained in the Fire Industry or going to these conferences to LEARN – I have always been quite “comfortable” as the “housewife hiker” helping kids and elders.
The naysayers and people who like to pick on me do not get it but my family and friends do that I am a very solid person (unless I am sick or tired – keep your space arms length away) yet I let you know at all times where you stand with me – I am very upfront.
I am not John Edward Dougherty’s campaign gal yet I want to state we have a FREE place to work through areas ( there is a donate link on this page ) or we read it and shelf it or ignore it but again it takes a lot to keep a site going and when I heard recently that Fire Author John N. MacLean when giving him a snip-it to important details – he turned to me and really had a disgust for my participation to IM so I want the world to know what IM should represent to us is a FREE spot to share and interact and yes it can seem like jumping in a pool with piranhas and YES many here still do not get IM is new to people like Harry and DHD and not there type of world but they took the time to express and the dissing and hissing effects I have seen them being shown is wrong…
In person I rarely call John D….John…I use his initials JED and so in my world he is Jed to me…
Now, with that said I have not given direct in person data to JED like I did MacLean and I did that to see if John N. MacLean would show me if what Charlie Moseley told me years ago and his other friends if it was true if he really wanted the evidence and data and his exact words was “if I thought going to him with it – than I reached a dead end.” My association here on IM ruined that path and yet I disagree.
I have spoken on IM at times my personal emotions what I feel about my hike with John Dougherty and etc and how I did not like the late arrivals and yet I am “housewife hiker” not a business person where time is money so I get JED – I do. I have brothers who I respect their careers and so I get it. One is a high profiled architect and my other runs his restaurants since 1990 so I get it- they have strong work ethics- my world was always my community and the elders and kids but that dos not make me a gal who could not do my best to contribute to get data out on the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire. What I never got to this day was the lamb article and the Dr Ted Putnam article and I have that right-
I ask the world – HOW MANY OF YOU were there Thursday June 3 2010 in the Copper Room at the Hotel Congress, 311 East Congress Street, Tucson? Those people I would like to contact me if you were there.
repeating…
‘Dougherty’s work has also appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, High Country News, Phoenix New Times, the Mesa Tribune, the Phoenix Gazette and the Arizona Republic. He’s been a frequent contributor to KJZZ and KAET Channel 8’s Horizon. John has been named Arizona Journalist of the Year three times and won the prestigious Don Bolles Award for Investigative Reporting on two occasions.’ [tucson weekly]
Anyone who feels any sorted away about John Edward Dougherty-
think about this
MOST papers have editors who have bosses and this man took the initiative to do what most would never do – giving him sorted views yet this is an important site, John Mac Lean – important.
let me close with JED’s own words [Phoenix New Times]”
“This will be a great exercise in the regular folks standing up and saying, ‘Enough of this bullshit,'” Dougherty says. … ‘Dougherty is passionate about almost everything and is well-versed on myriad topics.’
this article shows how dedicated he is –
http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/043010_dougherty/freelance-reporter-john-dougherty-seeks-us-senate-seat/
So please “newbies” coming here weed through all the areas and stick with it
this site does matter –
When the Wildland Fire Academies shut off any further conversations to be had on Yarnell Hill Fire – InvestigativeMEDIA is the only place in the world where one can share and sometimes it does not feel freely when you are quickly questioned or picked apart but once you make it through those moments you “exist” as a contributor here and IT DOES MATTER!
The censorship…the ILLEGAL censorship I have seen is not fair to these people in the Fire Industry. I have proven that in my blog that there is MORE DATA that was shown to me on ERIC SHANE MARSH than the ADOSH so it has to make one question WHO are the past and current SAIT and CRP (CRaP) folks and Subjective Matter Experts (SME) – I challenge that areas and will always …
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-348365
this person gets me and thank you Diane Lomas-
I know it is “frustrating” and I am working on the posts at the same time I got hit hard with travel cruds so I have spent 6 to 8 hours daily since I got back on the 28th and some days minimal time online due to Monsoon thhunder and lightning… but I am working on it. It is a post of three-
oh yeah Diane-
https://worldnutrition.net/vitalzym-xe-2/
https://youtu.be/9ODMuHC8SdQ
that stuff works in a way it reminds me of the YH Fire – pure pains
The pains are not in 1 spot and it is PAINFUL and it is like yeah like the product just not the timing of pains…but it is interesting to learn and you will LEARN internally where problem areas are
I am in activation phase and it is PAIN not discomfort so from perception Sonny and family and friends can share I am a person who can tolerate pain but this really sucks this hour so if anyone runs this product with their doctor – keep this part in mind –
I did pass on a procedure to do this route and hope this is a temporary phase but in testimonies some have done his for 6 to 18 months so that would suck…but if it removes old scar adhesion and such…hope so…
I can tell you I was on a 2-3 times a week regimen with chiro and I began this product for my colon but what I saw within days was complete relief from spine and neck issues and I am on maintenance program and no longer 2-3 times and I have seen improvement in both hernias so it HURTS in colon area indeed but I see it has for sure healed areas the chiro was like you are a chore one week to then “healed” the following week and so giving glory to God because He shared the tools for me to be able to use this item versus procedure. Thank you to a Yarnell physician who is my dear friend to CARE ENOUGH about me and my health to always taking my labs and health and giving me the education and self care tools versus just doing a procedure because another physician says lets do it to rule out this or that – thank you.
Get with your doctor and as if this product will help you…it has helped me. Thank you to IM participant for caring too so I can try this route.
It is expensive but seeing results.
Thanks for the post about John D0ugherty –well done and well taken. Some would not know of his good works that go much beyond even what Joy has posted.
People who are in the business of exposing scoundrels and criminal acts will always suffer much reproach so I am not surprised by those that rave against a forum that works to bring out facts and expose skulduggery. I would be concerned if they did not–they must after all attempt to support their story and one method is to disparage some and to limit free discussion. But eventually there will be a consensus of the truth–an embarrassment to those that continue to deny.
Joy-we dd have many great experiences in our pioneering journey as you termed it. Of course I was brought up with an Irish Dad who lived that life–somehow he got hooked on the prospectors dream of finding that bonanza. There are indeed so many wonders buried beneath our feet and in his case it was the living the dream and the hunt that drove him. I have a small collection of minerals here and am still amazed at the wonders of nature. On my desk right now is a twinned quartz crystal–an Arkansas Diamond–something that made the first radio sets possible, yet it has its value to me just to remind me of my Dad and the adventures I had as a child with him.
If you look at the brilliant rainbows of an Australian or Nevadan Opal, or the brilliant green of an Arizona Fire Agate, or the deep green of a turquoise or malachite, or the purple of an amethyst you realize the creator of these things is one of great variety and color. Nature and the wonderful world of animals, stones and plants is as much music as my Dad’s old banjo was to his part in a small band as they traveled across the great state of Texas to entertain those in Taverns and audiences as they found them. I am fortunate to see these things here on the desert even as the cow bird visits and my bird of paradise blooms in its fullest and my pine trees and small orchard draw them in.
Fire destroys so much of this and we see that the fire fighters have had to intensify their efforts–the fire seasons have greatly increased and fire firefighters have said there is a new era in fire fighting–hotter more intense and more numerous and larger areas of destruction. California is releasing low level offenders to train them as fire fighters–the older experienced fire fighters are spread thin and retiring so that a new generation of fire fighters are involved. I fear there will be more GMHS incidences as I watched the women prisoners being trained on a video by having them practice deployment into those blankets.
California fires are said to be human caused 9 out of 10 times. You could almost say that the Yarnell fire was human caused as well. No immediate effort was made to put it out when it could have easily been accomplished so those men responsible for proper and immediate action showed their irresponsible inaction –they had their share of blame in the destruction of Yarnell. The town was not prepared for a wild fire, yet the men experienced in wild land fires knew the area was a powder keg waiting for a spark.
To have created defensible space about the town and about homes would have been so much less expense than the destruction and the millions spent in useless effort to stop that fire. There was talk of lessons learned, but how can that be when it was such a cover up and facade to keep the face of failure hidden?
Joy, if you do become a fire investigator you will be excellent at that work. Your experiences at Yarnell will amplify your already uncanny ability to investigate and work the truth out. You already know the propensity for people to hide the facts in that business, so it would be difficult to hide the facts from you. But also if the rains have washed away enough of the poisons in Yarnell –if that is possible–then you would set well as the Fire Chief of that town.
There was a certain sadness seeing that video documentary of California wild fires. That of seeing the long experienced wild land fire fighters leaving and being spread so thin. You can imagine the loss of life and destruction –so much depends upon the experience and wisdom that those people have to contribute–so many more Yarnell incidents in the future.
Small world- are you born the same day as Brendan McDonough’s – Declan James?
Happy Bday Gary
let your special lady friend know about this tee too:
https://teespring.com/shop/fate-whispers-to-the-kbmg35?aid=marketplace&tsmac=marketplace&tsmic=search
Just the way you type on here I would never thought you were an August born- seems you are born the same month as me (July) but heck who am I – except the gal who always thought you were 7 foot 4 and learned by other WFs that you are this tiny guy- so who am I…a nobody who knows nothing…I thought you were literally this larger than life man…
I was born in July, on the 31st. 😎
Oh…and thank you.
https://images.app.goo.gl/kbqfxGnZFxH3dYNC7 forgot to add image…
isn’t always about the image?
I plan to talk about IMAGE and IM on my next post because it is serious because I learned a lot in DC….
should have it up by the end of the week God-willing
been taking the ACTIVATION PHASE of vitälzȳm® xe
on pause from the rattlesnake and bushmaster venom…
Thanks for the nice birthday image. And do you mean to tell me that my lifetime of grief because of my attitude is all the result of being born on July 31 instead of August 1? That really sucks. I want to be liked…I really do.
Can you answer this RTS about the Dugger Hughes letter for the newbies-
David Turbyfill says
MAY 31, 2016 AT 6:50 PM
Really??????????? Well hell yes. Why is it so easy for the living to condemn the dead but its not ok to question the living? I am not actual saying “go easy on GMHS” its just that JD did not, in his article show any background research to the claims made by those describing their beefs with Eric. I was trying to reach JD about whether or not he had checked into any of Dave P’s assertions.
Dave P came forward, on his own, he wasn’t asked or sought out, He interjected his Personal Opinion about Eric’s fitness as a Leader by sending the email to Mike D. His email and interview does NOT give any documented facts. That also means that he has not been asked to produce such evidence as yet. Hollies statement shows from here work that at least 2 shot crews objected to a assignment on the HS2 fire. It is only fair to take a look at his complaint, email and fairly access it by all means, which means it will be scrutinized, questioned not just taken at face value.
Quoting JD’s Article “Marsh, Provencio said, had quickly developed a reputation for pushing his crew to outperform other hotshot crews. By 2009, other hotshot crew superintendents began derisively referring to Marsh as “One Up” because of his attitude.”
Did GMHS produce more work when on fires?
Does IC or line command know this?
Is it often that ICs send Shot crews letters of Thanks or Recommendation?
What would IC have to gain?
Is there a competitive spirt amongst Shots crew on the line to the work that’s accomplished?
I do believe that Dave P’s assertions, assessments, thoughts on Eric/Jesse can be relevant to latter Human Factor Assessments
>To the rest here on IM this is partly why Mike Dudley did not want to get into this area of thought during the investigation, it would have only presented a lot of BIAS and a whole other set of investigations. To the rest here on IM, “MIGHT” this is partly why Mike Dudley
You can know that Eric Marsh would want people to know he killed his crew because of his disregard for their lives. He would not want the next fellow to demand a dangerous ascension into hell by ordering them into a steep box canyon that had every reason to be a trap that would kill them. That is if he were any kind of man and I believe he would be one to admit his acts were criminal. Let me tell you had I left Joy there I would have had to admit that I deserved to be another Marsh–instead of taking care for her life went on and been a murderer the rest of my days.
When you have knowledge and wisdom of a thing and allow your own well being or hubris override the safety of those that can not know their own danger then you become responsible for those lives.
It is true I once was crossing a wooden bridge when the Gila River was up from recent storms. I was working for Charlie in those days so was in damn good shape. But I noticed that there were some Mexican Families and out in the river was a young girl about 15 floating down river–she was going to be drowned. Yet none of the men or others there were doing anything by yelling. In those days I sometimes got off my horse and would run cattle out of the dense brush that a horse could not get into. I had run grader stakes and if you know anything about blue tops, the grader man had to have a guy running ahead of that grader uncovering the blue tops so he could see to keep a grade. Those runs were long and that was all day on a trot. So I was fast to run down river ahead of her and jump in and swim out so I could intercept her. I fogot how bad a swimmer I am but somehow I managed to grab that gal and keep her afloat enough until I could fight myself back to the bank in that swift current. It does not make me a hero to have done something like that but had I let that girl drown by not taking action then I would have had to live with that the rest of my life.
I think too many of these bosses think they have to prove something by risking their men. I told you about Bill where I hired out at the Ward Mine some 17 miles south of Ely, Nevada. That tunnel went in about a mile with many branches so we would ride a motor (underground mine train) back in to our working stope and then at quitting time Bill would come back in and we would meet at a place to get a ride back out. Well shit there were 12 x12 timbers stacked nearly side by side and I noticed that they were mushrooming on their tops. I told Bill that is going to be a cave. But he must have known the risk was there and that area was due to cave any time. Still he said no we will put in more timbers and it will hold and he convinced 9 of his crew to continue back in there. I had been there only a couple weeks but had him write my check. You know the rest–they were caught soon after I left but I did not know until about a year later when I stopped back by–Bill and another guy were still air mucking the cave in out–they had nearly gotten caught and barely got out a small ventilation shaft that had some caving itself. Some of these guys just look out for themselves and believe their worth is in taking needless chances with their men’s lives.
When these kids grow up they are going to be damned angry—their Dads were killed carelessly and they have been lied too. But they will know you can bet and then the hero card will be removed from more than a few that were involved in that needless killing. I wonder how it will weigh upon the conscience of the liars–maybe they don’t have one.
But I am not about that. People want to believe a fantasy and that is their prerogative. I am more about the disastrous effects of the retardant poisons. How these big companies have no conscience by hiding behind their corporations and lying scientists and lawyers that back the lies. People are dying from these deadly chemicals yet all they want to admit to is a few fish. Shit there has been hundreds of thousands of fish killed with other aquatic life and that is well documented. It is; also documented that the dead zones of the oceans are directly attributed to the phosphates and ammonium nitrates that the poisonous red algae feeds upon. It is also documented that the phosphates and their radioactive associated elements in them are contaminating fresh water sources and ground waters that people need in their homes.
I have asked Joy to give me names of all the deceased in the Yarnell and nearby areas that were affected by the retardant. There should be only about 35 named deceased but there are many more. I intend to send those names to the media in Phoenix and many of those famous people we hiked with–there were many magazine editors such as the Rolling Stone Editor, the Stein Magazine Editor of Germany, Morgan Lowe of Channel 12 and at least a dozen more– I want to get their opinion as to why we can easily accumulate about 200 names of deceased people after the Yarnell Fire when there should only be 35 in 6 years. I want to add names of people we know that are down ill as well. These toxins and hidden chemicals are to blame in my estimation. I am hoping we can at least get the skull and crossbones on these planes that deliver and the trucks and containers that have this aboard.
People are generally fooled into thinking this slurry is safe and has nothing to do with health problems. These propagandists working in the industries–including their doctors, psychologists, and scientists so willing to file false reports defending the company so they get their paid vacations and fine wines have done a superb job at what they do. That the companies have to spend hundreds of millions to continue their evil work is nothing to them. They are making hundreds of billions from these drops–and they laugh at a puny effort of someone such as Sonny–but not so much if some of the media fellows start getting past their propaganda. At times I wonder if they don’t own the media as well as the politicians that seem to turn a jaundiced eye to the truth of the damage this slurry situation has caused.
Reply to Gary Olson post on August 1, 2019 at 12:34 pm
>> Gary Olson said ( in a Reply to ‘Downhillndirect’ )…
>>
>> Yes…I remember Los Alamos. I’ll let you know what the doctors say after I get
>> all checked out here on this thread. I think there are lots of people out there
>> who have similar problems to the ones I have. I really think they do need to
>> put more thought into protecting WLF lungs and throats, in addition to
>> unnecessary exposure to dangerous chemicals.
Just two weeks ago, California became the first state in the nation to create a regulation which REQUIRES employers to protect their employees from any possible over-exposure to wildland fire smoke.
The new regulation takes effect RIGHT NOW ( as of August 1, 2019 ).
USA TODAY – The Palm Springs Desert Sun
Article Title:
California just became the first state to set safety regulation for workers exposed to wildfire smoke
Published: 4:27 p.m. PT July 18, 2019
By: Gabrielle Paluch, Palm Springs Desert Sun
https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/2019/07/18/california-first-in-us-to-require-wildfire-smoke-n-95-masks-for-outdoor-workers/1768118001/
From the article…
————————————————————————————————–
California’s workplace safety standards board voted Thursday to adopt an emergency regulation requiring employers to provide N95 safety masks to workers who could be exposed to wildfire smoke.
The state’s Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board’s emergency regulation will go into effect in early August and will be in effect for one year. When the Air Quality Index for airborne PM2.5 particulate matter measures higher than 150, or “unhealthy,” and when there is reasonable expectation employees will come into contact with wildfire smoke, employers are required to provide N95 respirator masks to workers.
It is the first regulation of its kind in the United States that specifically aims to address occupational exposure to wildfire smoke, according to the agency. The new rule amends the existing California regulations for respiratory protections in the workplace, which are similar to federal regulations.
Worksafe, California Labor Federation and California Rural Legal Assistance Foundation, worker health and safety advocacy nonprofit groups, filed a petition to the OSHSB asking for the regulation in December 2018.
The regulation adds requirements for employers to monitor air quality at the worksites for their outdoor workers. Employers must also take other measures to reduce exposure, such as allowing people to work from home, if a commute would add more than ONE HOUR of exposure to the unhealthy air.
Doug Parker, the executive director of Worksafe, said he was pleased to hear the board had approved what he called an important emergency standard to address the lack of adequate protections in place for workers exposed to wildfire smoke.
“Based on the experience of the last few years, when hundreds of thousands of workers in California were downwind of wildfire smoke,” Parker said, “it’s especially important that it happened in time to protect workers this wildfire season.”
—————————————————————————————————
And another article with more detail…
The San Francisco Chronicle
Article Title:
New rules to protect workers when wildfires’ smoke fills the air
Published: July 29, 2019 – By Peter Fimrite
https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Employers-now-required-to-protect-workers-from-14191803.php
From that article…
————————————————————————————————–
Wildfire smoke is PARTICULARLY BAD because it contains a mixture of gases and chemicals, including carbon monoxide, nitrogen, hydrocarbons and other hazardous compounds, according to the supporting documents for the new regulations filed by Cal OSHA.
Inhaling large amounts of these fine particles can cause respiratory problems and asthma, worsen heart and lung diseases, cause eye and skin irritation, and contribute to premature death, according to numerous scientific studies and reports.
Employers will have the option to change workers’ duties and locations to protect them from wildfire smoke or, if that is not possible, distribute approved respirators, like N95 masks, that are designed to filter out the harmful particulates.
The new rules, which will be in place while permanent regulations are developed, require employers to take action when smoke from wildfires reaches 151 or greater on the Air Quality Index, a government monitoring system that measures particles smaller than 2.5 micrometers in diameter. That’s about 1/20th the width of a human hair.
Experts say an average Air Quality Index rating of 22 is like smoking one cigarette a day.
By contrast, the index hovered around 271 for the Bay Area during November’s Camp Fire, when San Francisco experienced the worst air quality in its recorded history.
————————————————————————————————–
Sounds GOOD, right?
Well… what BOTH articles fail to mention is that there is only ONE “named” occupation that remains FULLY EXEMPT from the new wildfire smoke exposure protection regulations.
( Drumroll, please ).
Firefighters fighting wildfires.
You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up.
Followup…
Here is an actual COPY of the EMERGENCY WILDFIRE SMOKE PROTECTION regulation that just went into effect in California…
https://www.dir.ca.gov/oshsb/documents/Protection-from-Wildfire-Smoke-Emergency-apprvdtxt.pdf
From that text of this new regulation…
———————————\———————————————————–
Section 5141.1 – Protection from Wildfire Smoke
Paragraph (a) – Scope
Item (2) The following workplaces and operations are EXEMPT from this section ( and these regulations )…
Firefighters engaged in wildland firefighting.
——————————————————————————————-
Gee…you had me going for awhile. But as always…I really appreciate your skill, attention to detail and commitment to this thread. Thank you for the update. Recognizing you have a problem is the first step after all. 😎
Oh…and one more thing. I just sent my Special Lady Friend the following text message.
“Well, I made a special trip to town today because I thought I might have a birthday card from you waiting in my box. But OMGosh…instead, I found the most manly, macho and masculine t-shirt I have ever seen waiting for me.
“I DANCE WHERE THE DEVIL WALKS” and “I FIGHT WHAT YOU FEAR.” Thanks so much for thinking of me on my Special (Medicare Eligible) 65th Birthday!”
https://teespring.com/shop/IDFirefighter
She does know the difference between WLF and Round Hats because we were dating while I was a hotshot, but as usual, WLF are under recognized and appreciated compared to our structural fireman cousins, 3rd or maybe 4th cousins that is.
Do you know what the first thing I noticed is? Of course you don’t because that’s a rhetorical question. The image of the firefighter is wearing a self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA).
Don’t you think our WLF at least deserve N95 breathing masks, or here’s a bright💡idea…something better with a mandate to wear them whenever possible?
And FYI…it’s always possible to wear a passive respiratory during the periods when the WLF are exposed to the most toxic and health damaging smoke
So…I will ask it again, “Does this look okay to you?”
http://ourfiregods.com/REMFIssues.html
The website program I use is kinda funky and it screws up my text without warning and in odd ways sometimes. So I just noticed I need to go in and fix a problem with my text…but the message remains the same, “Does this look okay to you?”
Whoops 😬
“And FYI…it’s always possible to wear a passive respiratory during the periods when the WLF are exposed to the most toxic and health damaging smoke…DURING MOP UP OPERATIONS!”
Okay…just one more for now. The piece of shit made by the Blind Industries, or low bid fucked up goggles issued by the U.S. Government need to be upgraded to the kind of goggles (unless that’s already been done while I wasn’t looking) I bought myself along with my own $25.00 MSA passive respiratory (with a single filter change at the end of the fire season) that I am shown wearing in these photos you stupid Rear Echelon Mother Fuckers (REMF).
http://ourfiregods.com/REMFIssues.html
You don’t send our troops to fight wearing practical jokes for goggles. Why do you value your wildland firefighters eyes 👀 as being worth so much less?
You people are really and truly fucked up and worthless human beings its been so long since you were on the fire line, or more likely…you never were. Or at least for very long and you never did much or you would care more.
The U.S. military has similar purchasing requirements as you do except they had somebody care enough to sit down and write a simple sole source purchase order justification. I’ve written lots of them, just ask me and I’ll write it for you lazy motherfuckers.
Oh…and one more thing. It’s NOT just the pay, benefits and retirement of the Round Hats in California.
Because of their strong unions and their negotiating power, it’s the Bagpipe Blowers everywhere. That’s the only reason they play at being Hybrid WLF, they make a fuckin’ killin’ with their rules playin’ OUR game.
The only reason any of those GMIHC went to work for a rinky dink municipal fire department hotshot crew experiment instead of a federal crew was in the hopes they could become Round Hat Bagpipe Blowers. And in the process get a decent fuckin’ job where the employees at least have some protection in their standard God given PPE gear provided by the REMF.
That and in the case of Eric Marsh, he had already fucked up too many times to be hired by anyone else again. And then as it turned out in the end, he wasn’t just a Situational Fuckup (SF), Marsh was a Terminal Fuckup (TF) just like EVERYBODY already knew he was.
“The only way decisions made by REMF make any sense, is if you consider people to be statistics and not human beings.”
Everyone is a SF including me 😬, but it takes a very special person like Eric Marsh to be a TF.
Oh…and I’m not just being snarky towards the Prescott Fire Department because it works like this. Every year you spend working under a different retirement system than the one you intend to retire from, is one year of your life wasted beyond getting some initial experience to get where you want to end up.
Working for anyone other than a federal agency is a waste unless you are going to stay with them because all of the things that make the job worthwhile, the amount of leave you accrue, your pay raises, your retirement, and your seniority for everything would stay with the Prescott Fire Department or any of the state forestry departments and once you left them, it would all disappear beyond a small refund check from the retirement system you had been paying into.
Whereas in the federal system, you can go back and forth between all of the federal agencies and everything you have earned and have done follows you. I didn’t end up with 15 years with the USFS and 18 years with the BLM, I ended up with s total time served with the Office of Personnel Management. That’s who has had my file ever since I retired. Neither the USFS nor BLM has had anything to do with me since May of 2006.
There was exactly one career path with the PFD. and that was to become a structural fireman. But in the federal system, there are almost unlimited career opportunities and everything you have earned follows you. I never lost sight of my retirement goals for a single day of my career. I was laser focused and it paid off.
As a practical matter, there are probably only a dozen or so likely career paths, but nothing would be stopping you from earning a degree in Forestry and then becoming a professional forester for example, or even getting out of FIRE period and going to work for FEMA or whoever you want to.
But being a GMIHC, beyond some initial experience, or to become a PFD fireman would have been a dead end loser’s job. That is what Eric Marsh’s problem was since I have figured out he was blackballed on the structural side and he couldn’t go back to any if the federal agencies or a state forestry department. Marsh had ONE career path as far as I can tell, and that was into Darrell Willis’ job.
And that fact played a huge role in his ordering his crew out of the black. Once that crew would have been cut by the City of Prescott and Wild Lands Division eliminated, Marsh would have been in deep trouble where his next move would have been a job where he had to ask, “Do you want fries with that?”
Don’t underestimate how much that ate at his mind and affected his thinking and the choices he made. He was forty something years old, it would eat at anybody’s mind at that age like a malignant cancer.
Unless of course, the PFD’s retirement system in linked with other fire departments within Arizona the way some states have it for various jobs like teachers? Then I guess a former GMIHC. might have a second career path without flushing everything down the toilet?
If that’s the case, I guess you could bounce around between fire departments if you get blackballed by PFD?
Maybe that’s how Downhill Direct knew Steed, is a former hotshot who has a mangina because he and his battalion could only wear a respirator for five minutes whereas I wore one for seven (7) years as a hotshot, and then he ended up with the Sun City Fire Department where his union contract says he gets to go home for dinner every night even when on a FIRE it be breastfed for dinner while rotating out of the smoke?
After participating in this goat ropin’ for six (6) years, nothin’ surprises me anymore.
And the reason I keep saying Downhill Direct must be with the Sun City Fire Department is because I think there were some jerk off Round Hat Bagpipe Blowers fuckin’ around playin’ FIRE BUG with some drip torches they borrowed from PFD at the end of the Shrine Road and those are the guys who think they killed the crew?
But…WTKTT will have to correct me if I’m wrong? I do think I remember there were some jerk off Round Hat Bagpipe Blowers with manginas fuckin’ around somewhere playin’ FIRE BUG with some borrowed drip torches?
wow, wrong on DHD Gary but the rest – those people do need to speak up… there is folks who do owe it …
excellent words above on PFD vs Federal-
nice,
thank you , Gary
A N95 mask or even a charcoal based mask while working arduously could cause hyperventilation, we tried it for about 5 minutes.
Cycling people out of heavy wildland smoke is key if we are able to do so. During structure protection is a whole different beast itself. Mix activity burning structures with vegetation smoke brings intense headaches and nausea. Not two weeks ago I directed an entire type 3 Strike team out of the smoke and into fresh air for 10 minutes.
I caught shit for it but my FF’s are my family and I’ll be damned if I over-expose them for houses that were a loss anyway. The word is spreading about Retardant and the known toxic levels.
Walking through an area freshly treated burns your eyes and is pungent enough to taste the vapor coming off of it. Our Battalion has been directed to always cycle out of heavy smoke and keep out or the Retardant if we can.
I am grateful to all of you that support us by exposing the so called leaders that put their people in harms way. Wildland foam, made by none other than PhosCheck is corrosive enough to give a sunburn like task if it isn’t flushed thoroughly with cold water for 15 minutes. Are the 5 gallon buckets placated, no. Why because they’re sent to our source by pallet load. When we get 10-30 gallons that amount is under the limit to be placarded.
Again, I am grateful to each of you for speaking up. Know it or not we all are.
You are full of shit Downhill Direct. I have laid my experience out in detail…you still haven’t proved shit to anybody on this thread except that you talk the talk, but we are still waiting to see you walk the walk…you stupid fuck.
.I wore the respirator for tears in that photo of me as a hotshot on the Mighty Coconino and the Santa Fe during all mop up operations and many other times for SEVEN YEARS. I specifically said you can’t wear them during arduous physical labor or while hiking up a steep slope, but there are countless times you can wear them and that always includes when you are working on mop unless you were the one WLF in history who mopped up working arduously. And that is when WLF are exposed to the very worst of the containment smoke and particulates.
Have you ever even been on a fire line up in the mountains? Cycled out of the smoke, how the fuck is that ever going to happen? What planet and in what universe did you fight fire in? How far would you have to take the crews and where would there replacements come from? That is without a doubt the stupidest thing anybody has ever written on this thread. Who the fuck do you fight fire for? The Sun City Fire Department?
Gary,
I appreciate your way with words. It was brought to my attention that I am “Full of Shit” and supposedly have a “Mangina”.
From reading your posts from time to time it is obvious you care deeply about WFF safety and how the YHF was dealt with. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are retired, right? I am not retired and I have everything to lose if. I was to give my full name, years spent on a Hotshot crew and what position I currently hold. I’m out of Region now as a STEQ (Strike Team Heavy Equipment) in Oregon watching our fire blow by us in our safety zone. I will say I spent 11 years on a IHC and get paid bi-weekly as a 0462.
Jesse was a dear friend so watch your mouth in regards to how I knew him or your assumptions that I work for a municipality in AZ. Long before he became a Hotshot he and a small group of friends and I navigated our teens and twenties together. That same group of friends all became FF’s and WFF’s.
It’s not my fault that some people get sick with respiratory illnesses from this job. I’m sure I have taken years off of my life. I battle that with PT and diet. So far so good.
As far as heavy/and or smoke in general WE take turns getting fresh air as practical and if safe to do so. We tried the masks and they didn’t work for us. If me not using a respirator means I have a Mangina, then so be it.
I’ve always worn a baseball cap style hard hat and sleep at fire camp. We get a hotel on the way to an out of state roll or on the way home from a roll. I follow the ROE’s and take pride in keeping my people safe for years.
Before you start insulting people who truly care about how the YHF finally plays out, remember there are other people out there besides yourself that have legitimate decorated experience that don’t work for SCFD or PFD.
I asked about Los Alamos because I was there a day after they lit it trying to save homes and property.
Back to work with my Dozers, thanks for the good talk Gary, looking forward to reading your colorful response. Have a great day!
You have got be one worthless Round Hat Bagpipe Blower who has pencil whipped quals!
Now…why don’t you go away again because we aren’t nice to stupid fucks like you on this thread?
Rotate OUT OF THE SMOKE! I can’t believe you wrote something so fuckin’ stupid! The only way U.S. Forest Service Hotshots get rotated off the fire line is by being medevaced! Fuck you AND your battalion.
And I didn’t start wearing that respirator until I was in trouble because I didn’t know bad things can happen from breathing that nasty shit and nobody warned me. It was kind of like locking the barn door after the horse had already been stolen. But it did extend my hotshot years for a total of TEN (10) of them. Which doesn’t impress RTS, but it impresses almost all other WLF. You and your fuckin’ battalion of fuckin worthless Round Hat Mother Fucking Bagpipe Blowers. Fuck me…what has this thread come to? We have some fuckin’ Round Hat Bagpipe Blower telling ME about him and his fuckin battalion!
That’s it…I can’t take being corrected by some fuckin’’ Sun City Fire Department Fuckin’ Round Hat Mother Fucking Bagpipe Blower. I’m going back on sabbatical…I can’t take this kind of abuse. I’m only human. Fuck me silly and call me Sally. A fuckin FIREMAN telling ME, the youngest hotshot crew boss in history at age 23 about fightin’’ fire. Rotate off the fire line out of the smoke? Oh fuck me…why didn’t I ever think of that.. I don’t know? I guess I never thought if it because it isn’t a FUCKIN’ OPTION unless you show up in a big fire truck from Sun City and you can go home so you can be breastfed for dinner. We had a total of 6 guys rotated off the fire line by being medevaced one at a time after two weeks on Kanaka Ridge on the Hog Fire. But that’s the most rotation I ever saw on a fire.
Whoops,
That would be the Hog Fire of 1977 on the Shasta T. Anybody who was on that bitch (non gender specific) knows what I’m talkin’ about!
Oh…and one more thing. If during the FOUR (4) years I was the Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher and Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator (the MF-in-Charge) if any Incident Commander would have called me on the radio and said, “I want to order up some replacement crews because I need to rotate the ones I have now out of the smoke.”
I would have replied, “I’m sorry…but please repeat your last because it sounded like you said, I want to order up some replacement crews because I need to rotate the ones I have now out of the smoke and I KNOW you couldn’t have possibly said something so fuckin’ stupid!”
Thanks DHD–I will take firefighters talking about the fire retardant dangers and effects talking about the effects of foam, Phos Chek, and other retardants killing their crews and leaving the retired ones ill and with long term killer diseases.
People are becoming aware of the many dangers of these chemicals not only on human health but the environment, wild life and ocean life. And it is commendable that you concern for your crew–no amount of residences are worth killing the crew to advance your status as a wild land fire fighter.
Now it is where that money needs to be directed at prevention–there are too many Eric Marsh types running around out there willing to unnecessarily risk their crews to protect residences and the fire fighting community is too often covering up the Marsh incidences to keep face. They rather make Marsh a hero than expose him for what he did–his actions made the system look bad so rather than face the facts, the fire gods opted to play the deception.
Yesterday, July 31st, I was remiss and failed to acknowledge a 2015 wildland fire fatality .
Remembering Dave Ruhl, Black Hills National Forest firefighter, who passed away four years ago while engaging the Frog Fire on the Modoc National Forest outside of Alturas, CA. July 31, 2015
Wildfire Today Narrative Report released for fatality on the Frog Fire (October 9, 2015)
( https://wildfiretoday.com/2015/10/09/report-released-for-fatality-on-the-frog-fire/ )
( https://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/2015-07-31-ca-dave-ruhl-frog-fire-report.pdf )
The Wildland Fire LLC has quite a few of the records for this fire fatality, so GTS the relevant info
A U.S. Forest Service firefighter killed while fighting the Frog Fire, south of the Lava Beds on the Modoc NF near Altura, CA. He was reported missing by his crew Thursday night and his body was recovered Friday morning, July 31. His body was found about 14 hours later approximately one-quarter mile from where he was last seen.
“Situated in northeastern California, the Modoc National Forest is a land of contrasts, with an ecologically diverse landscape ranging from timbered mountains to high desert plateaus. The rugged landscape formed from expansive prehistoric lava flow is marked with areas of rough, broken lava rock ridges surrounded by deep basins. The term ‘lava reef’ was developed locally on the Modoc to describe these volcanic flow structures, commonly 20 to 30 feet in height. Walking over them is deceptively difficult.” … “What an ugly place to have a fire.”
Local fire responders on the Frog Fire referred to this area as “ gasoline alley .”
Composed predominantly of Ponderosa pine, scattered juniper, manzanita, bitter brush, and grasses, “gasoline alley” was primed for fire on the afternoon of July 30, 2015. Scattered clouds with 94° F temperatures and RH at 13 percent. SSW winds at 5 miles per hour, gusting up to 12 miles per hour, were recorded at a nearby RAWS. Live fuel moisture in the bitterbrush, known locally as “ plant-based gasoline ,” was measured at 113 percent, i.e. volatile fuel conditions.
David Ruhl, 38, a Black Hills National Forest Engine Captain was reported missing during the initial attack on the fire in the Modoc National Forest. The cause of death for Ruhl was announced following an autopsy and was attributed to carbon monoxide poisoning and smoke inhalation.
Ruhl went missing the evening of July 30 while engaged in initial attack on the Frog Fire. The Modoc County Sheriff’s Office was called for assistance in searching for them issuing firefighter. Search and rescue personnel started the initial search at approximately 8 p.m. The initial search effort continued until about midnight when it was halted because of hazardous fire conditions. Efforts began again at 6 a.m., July 31 and the victim’s body was discovered at 9:17 a.m.
And of course, many of the usual suspects here from the June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, Wildland Fire LLC “Honor the Fallen”, YH Fire Family Staff Ride, etc. …
One of them did tell me that during interviews, many of these young WFs said they did not care about the historical fires, (e.g. South Canyon, 30-Mile, and Cramer Fires) and that the June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire was their historical fire to focus on
Learning Review Team Members:
Mike Dudley (CRaP Response Lead)
Randy Draeger (Learning Review Team Lead)
Joe Harris – USFS Human Dimensions
Kevin Pfister
Don Boursier
Tony Petrilli – MTDC Fire Shelters
Curtis Heaton
“ If this accident didn’t happen, I wouldn’t have any sense of the danger we were in .” —Firefighter
Are you kidding me? Someone had to die to let this WF know about some unknown “sense of danger”
“The U.S. Forest Service is using a tool known as a Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) to review and learn from tragic events. It is a tool the Forest Service uses to ensure that we learn everything possible from serious incidents to reduce the chances of recurrence. The CRP includes a Learning Review. The Learning Review (LR) is a phased approach designed to help thoroughly study the accident with the focus on helping prevent future accidents. A Forest Service CRP team has been assigned to the Frog Fire fatality. The team is comprised of staff with technical expertise in specialty areas such as fire management, fire behavior, proper protective equipment and human factors / performance. The CRP process started August 3. When completed the final report will be available to the public.”
Classic Watch Out #4 – Unfamiliar with local factors influencing weather and fire behavior and pretty likely failure to follow LCES even though one of the CRaP members claimed he was. How can one follow and heed to LCES and get killed by fire on a wildlfire?
I hope Coordinated Response Protocol takes a look at the deaths and sickness their slurry drops did at Yarnell so that does not happen again. Yarnell was soaked with hundreds of thousands of gallons of the slurry in around the town. If they check on the death and illness since they will find the results approaching what the slurry toxins do to fish. In only 6 years since the slurry drops almost a third of the population is dead and many are ill or on their death beds.
I know there is ignorance prevalent among the perpetrators. I know this because they totally foamed the house of one of the men connected to fire fighting. Was this a favor? Have they checked on that persons health since? Was it Chuck Tardy? If so he contracted prostate cancer since the fire and announced it publicly at one of the town meeting after the fire. He was also seen with the firemen and doing lots of civic good and had his back yard or very near it a huge red streak of Jumbo Jet load retardant dumped. Would he say retardant has anything to do with his cancer? I have no clue–but in my mind it was because there are so many affected by the toxins and like Chuck these illnesses came on suddenly for the elder people after the fire. I think Chuck is in his 60’s but I am only making a visual judgement.
So maybe we can give some of the CRaP members some food for thought.
Gary Olson says
AUGUST 1, 2019 AT 12:28 PM
,Joy,
Thank you…I’m sorry your program didn’t go as planned. not yet – redoing it all to new areas – I do not give up that easy And if I ever talk my Special Lady Friend into going out to dinner, I appreciate your advice, but my cough and breathing is pretty disgusting, it even bothers me. So I can understand how someone else might not like to listen to it. Sonny and I get THAT cough,…THAT breathing and its noises, etc…and again it should be another’s honor no matter how you “sound” to eat dinner and enjoy old times and new times with you as she has to see that…I think if someone I knew from college wanted to dine with me – say NY journalist gal Kaja Whitehouse from my college phase and she said let’s go eat and hang out…I would hope she would not be so shallow and think oh Joy looks nothing like her college days or even SOUNDS like she did – we are made to be WHO WE ARE and in it LIVE and TOUCH LIVES
So…people are just going to have to make a choice…no slurry and bigger fires, or use slurry and accept the health risks. I disagree- I do think there is a better formula than both those suggestions… Something I do not shoot from the hip quite yet but I will say this I disagree there
You and I understand by now that life is a series of choices, trade-offs and compromises. Which is a real BUMMER! as well as there is a choice to do the right thing
Okay, good advice, I will run that by my Special Lady Friend and see if that dog can hunt.
And I don’t know nuthin’ about birtin’ no babies (e.g., slurry)! I am NOT trying to get between Sonny and his favorite bone (chemicals that are killin’ people) to chew on.
I was simply trying to be helpful by suggesting what someone would say in defense of slurry if someone else spoke up. I already said what I thought they should do. Eliminate all slurry and hire more hotshots, Keep them all on year round and make entry level, GS-5, journeyman GS-6, Sr. Crewmen GS-7, Squad Bosses GS-9, Crew Bosses (Superintendent) GS-11.
Since I am a hammer…every problem looks like a nail to me.
I am NOT A BIG FAN (to quote President Trump) of slurry…or slurry bombers ever since the Valdez Fire when that one caught me with my pants down down around my ankles.
Clarification.
The Valdez Fire was burning initially on a VERY steep slope with lots of heavy down fuel such as old logs and slash. But I failed to mention what made it so dangerous. The entire hillside was covered with intermittent patches of very thick dog hair smaller trees that provided perfect “ladders” for that very hot fire with wind pushing it on that very steep slope to keep climbing up into the tops of the big trees and crowning out.
And I have been thinking about why that bomber didn’t drop his load on the fire someplace rather than just jettisoning it in that green valley with me as his center mark. And I think it was because there wasn’t any Air Attack and by the time he dropped that last load, the entire fire was crawling with WLF of every kind (because it didn’t get very far after it topped out) and I don’t think he wanted to risk dropping on the fire with so many people on it so he just dumped it on me.
This is getting down into the weeds, but that green valley (which stretched out to the north further than I could see) would have made the north side secure, and the way the road was initially on the south side and then snaked around down some switchbacks to the valley below, it would have made the south and west sides secure, if we could just have punched in that line on the east side.
But…hotshots working on a very steep slope above a hot fire burning in heavy dry explosive fuel being driven by strong gusting winds. Does that remind anybody of every hotshot disaster fire in history?
Oh..and one more thing. I never could “run” in my size 15 Whites with 12 inch tops because they weighed about 10 pounds each.. The best I could do was chug up that steep slope. That was why I needed a head start on that FNG hippie dude who kept tryin’ to rabbit on me. 😎
And I’m not just pulling those GS grades out of thin air. The complexity of fighting the wildfires of today with extensive wild land urban interface while working with a myriad of other local, state and federal agencies, in addition to the increased tempo with the demands of a virtually never ending fire season placed on the hotshot crews of today far exceeds what was expected from hotshots in my day. I bet I could write those new PD’s to pass a personnel audit.
And that’s the key word for personal audits…”complexity.” It doesn’t matter how hard you work…the only thing that matters for an upgrade is the complexity of that work. I wrote the new Position Descriptions for the agents who worked for me in Arizona and all of them got upgraded to 12’s.
For example, my last year as a hotshot was 1984 and only the National Park Service had a hotshot crew other than the USFS. And I never once worked with a Round Hat…never. Various State Forestry Departments…yes, but that was it. And that was as late as 1988 because I was still in wildfire operations management and it was still the same as it was when I left the line in 1984. It is a completely new world today, Scary.
Plus…OMGosh, have you seen what those non federal WLF’s…Round Hat types name in California? It’s like they can print their own money! Increased grades are needed for RETENTION since that is where the fires are for the future! And their retirement…OMDoubleGosh!
By golly, if I were a young man starting over…
Whoops 😬
Plus…OMGosh, have you seen what those non federal WLF’s…Round Hat types MAKE in California?
Plus their BENEFITS! OMTripleGosh!
And yes…I know it’s expensive to live there, but not after you retire and move to Arizona.
Reply to Charlie post on July 30, 2019 at 3:32 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> What I have found with the toxic studies they are usually
>> done by the companies involved or else funded by such
>> with their pet scientists, etc.
>>
>> ( snip )
>>
>> I am always suspicious when companies do their own
>> investigations. We saw that at Yarnell to the greatest
>> of degrees. How well they manipulated their public story
>> and how hard it has been to get the real story out.
>> The public trusts them and once they make up a story,
>> the public is quick to accept.
>>
>> We need that to change to independent investigators.
Yes. It is WAAAY past time for that to happen.
Also… regarding ‘toxic studies’…
The Wine Industry is getting more pissed off every month about the ‘secrecy’ involved with Phos-Check retardant products.
Cal-Fire officials keep telling them how ‘safe’ it is… but they are also being advised to NEVER harvest any grapes that have come into contact with Phos-Check because of all the ‘mystery shit’ that is in it.
They are losing MILLIONS of dollars yearly because of all the ‘secrecy’ and the lack of studies.
What the California Wine Industry should do is SUE the manufacturer for full disclosure.
And make no mistake… the California Wine Industry is a POWERFUL lobbyiing organization with some real CLOUT. They could “get it done” if they wanted to.
Wine Industry Insight
Article Title:
Phos-Chek: Deadly to salmon, cautions for wine grapes,
sketchy data on human effects, confusion among public officials
Published: October 24, 2017 by Lewis Perdue
http://wineindustryinsight.com/?p=86299
From that article…
————————————————————————————————–
The sketchy and fragmented data available about the uncertain safety of fire retardant on wine grapes indicates that — even if safe — those should NOT be harvested or made into wine because of regulatory issues over unauthorized substances that might be detected in the finished products.
According to the warm and fuzzy (and unconfirmed) anecdotes about Phos-Chek, the bright-red, air-dropped chemical is so safe that firefighting instructors have supposedly been known to eat it on corn chips to show new recruits just how harmless it can be.
But the plural of anecdote does not equal data. And when it comes to Phos-Chek, reliable data is sadly lacking.
There is no question that the fire retardant has played a vital role in saving lives and property in the wine country wildfires. However, the lack of reliable and complete data about it has complicated the lives of farmers impacted by the Wine Country wildfires.
No studies have been done in humans.
No published, peer-reviewed studies have been done on laboratory animals.
The main source of information is a document produced by the manufacturer.
—————————————————————————————————-
Thanks WTKTT–I did not know that the retardant was so dangerous that grapes cannot be consumed or used in the wine industry if sprayed with orange toxin retardant.
There is a lot more to this story –too much illness and death after these retardant drops and the fact that fire fighters die with heart disease statistics and other diseases way off the chart. It is obvious these retardant giants will continue to hold on to their secrets as long as possible.
About the only way to get to the truth is if main stream media starts talking. That was how the thalidomide ordeal was broken up–otherwise that would have continued for decades more.
“As Firehouse Sees It: It’s No Longer a Wildland Season
“Firehouse Editor-in-Chief Peter Matthews explains that the explosive number of wildfires has put an end to the traditional wildfire season.” by Peter Matthews – July 1, 2019
( https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/article/21084743/as-firehouse-sees-it-its-no-longer-a-wildland-season?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190725009&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
“In December, during a meeting held by the Congressional Fire Services Institute in Washington, D.C., Dr. Shawna Legarza, director of Fire and Aviation for the U.S. Forest Service said her agency is working with the reality that the wildland season is long gone because it is a year-round problem. And it’s not just in the Western United States, it’s all over the country.”
Let’s pause to remember some of the deadliest wildfires for firefighters during the traditional wildland season.
“On June 30, 2013, 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed in Yarnell, AZ. The Rattlesnake Fire that burned through the Mendocino National Forest in Willows, CA, claimed the lives of 15 firefighters on July 6, 1953. Fifteen firefighters were killed on Aug. 21, 1937, as they worked the Blackwater Forest Fire in the Shoshone National Forest in Wyoming. The Devil’s Broom Wildland Fire near St. Joe Valley, ID, killed 78 firefighters on Aug. 20, 1910.
“Turn to page 46 to learn more about the South Canyon Fire that claimed the lives of 14 firefighters in Colorado 25 years ago on July 6, 1994. And, next month marks the 70th anniversary of the Mann Gulch Fire that claimed the lives of 13 firefighters and smokejumpers on Aug. 5, 1949, in the Helena National Forest in Montana.”
Reply to Charlie post on July 28, 2019 at 11:21 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> WTKTT, and others concerned: I am working on the retardant issue
>> with an Australian scientist that wants to know the exact name of
>> retardants that were used at Yarnell.
There is no EXACT list that I know of, in the public record, but you can be almost 100 percent certain they were Phos-Check products.
The Prescott National Forest Aviation Center, where most of the “load and returns” were happening during the entire 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, has a specific CONTRACT with the Phos-Check company.
And not just for the retardants, either.
Actual Phos-Check employees are the ones who do the reloading at the Prescott Aviation/Fire Center.
Here’s a Prescott Daily Courier Article that confirms that…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Pit stops to the sky: Crews at Prescott center move quickly so planes can return to firefighting
https://web.archive.org/web/20190729153250/https://www.dcourier.com/news/2019/jul/27/pit-stops-sky-crews-move-quickly-so-planes-can-ret/
———————————————————————————————
Kurt Estorez works at the Prescott Fire Center as an assistant manager for Phos-Chek, a manufacturer of long-term fire retardant, Class A foam and water enhancing gel.
The Prescott National Forest (PNF) contracts with Phos-Chek so it can use the company’s employees and fire retardant during wildland, industrial and municipal fires in the area.
Similar to NASCAR pit crews, Phos-Check Air Attack teams like the one Estorez helps manage are constantly striving to improve the time it takes them to fill aircraft with retardant. As soon as an aircraft parks in one of the fire center’s pits, the team runs out with its equipment.
————————————————————————————————–
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> He also asked if chlorine or bromine were present and if they
>> were halogenated. If you or anyone can answer any of these
>> question, I would appreciate having them. You can post or reach
>> me at sonny95@proton mail.com or 575-202-5928. Your reply or
>> post will be appreciated.
Again… there is no specific information about that ( that I know of ) in the current public evidence record for the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire… but since BOTH chlorine and bromine are common chemicals used in industrial fire retardants, you can bet those might be part of the ‘secret ingredients’ that the Phos-Check company refuses to disclose.
Followup…
The following is a comprehensive research paper published in 2004 about the effects of Wildland Fire Retardants on the environment, animals, and people.
And YES… despite what US Forestry thinks… there IS a lethal dose level for humans when it comes to Phos-Check and other WF retardant mixtures.
According to the paper… it’s the ‘anti-corrosion’ chemicals that are added to keep the shit from chewing up the airplanes and the pumping equipment that is the really NASTY stuff… but the ammonia and cyanide by-products issues don’t help, either.
This is a VERY high-level academic paper with all kinds of ‘formulas’ and whatnot… but it is VERY well done, summarizes all the other research that has ( and has NOT been done ), and the ‘References’ section alone is a treasure-trove of research on the topic.
There really has NEVER been an adequate study done regarding the long-term effects of wildland fire retardants on humans.
Long-term forest fire retardants: A review of quality, effectiveness, application and environmental considerations
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228836272_Long-term_forest_fire_retardants_A_review_of_quality_effectiveness_application_and_environmental_considerations
From that Research Paper…
———————————————————————————————
Environmental impact of fire retardants
Fire retardant delivery into the environment could have toxicity effects on organisms.
Initially it was thought that fire retardants would have no adverse effect on the environment, as their main active ingredients are agricultural fertilizers; however, even materials of inherent low toxicity can cause adverse environmental effects when the rate or intensity of use is sufficiently great (Norris et al. 1978).
The toxicity studies have been classified by: (a) the effect on water quality and consequently on aquatic organisms; (b) toxicity effects on vegetation; and (c) toxicity effects on humans. There are three works that review the various studies of the impact of fire retardant use on people and ecosystems, by Labat Anderson Inc. (1994), Adams and Simmons (1999) and Kalabokidis (2000). Kalabokidis’ work has many refer- ences to studies on the effects of fire retardants on people, whereas the work of Adams and Simmons (1999) presents a review of the environmental impact of long-term fire retar- dants and foams, with less emphasis on their effects on people. Labat Anderson Inc. (1994) deals with the ecological and human risks of the use of fire retardants.
For each long-term fire retardant mixture, the suppliers publish the safety information in relation to its use (MSDS, Material Safety Data Sheet); primarily human health hazards and environmental regulation data are specified along with toxicity tests, chemical and physical properties of the fire retardant, storage and handling conditions and reactivity. Generally, environmental impact on surface fresh water caused by retardant delivery is the topic that has been studied in most detail, whereas fewer studies have been conducted to determine the effects on vegetation and the reduction of species diversity caused by added nitrogen and phosphorus in soils (Adams and Simmons 1999; Larson et al. 1999)
Toxicity effects on water and aquatic organisms
Evidence shows that the main impact that fire suppression chemicals have on the environment may be through adverse effects on water quality and subsequently on freshwater fish and other stream biota (Kalabokidis 2000).
As mentioned above, ammonium salts are one of the toxic components of some long-term fire retardants for aquatic organisms when it is dissociated by water to ammonia.
The results of the toxicity tests showed that fire retardants applied directly into streams require great dilution to be non-lethal for aquatic organisms; for example, a dilution in the range of 100–1750 times was necessary to approach a safe concentration for rainbow trout (Gaikowski et al. 1996). It is essential, therefore, to avoid aerial retardant delivery near streams.
Further work was carried out (Little and Calfee 2002a) on the main toxic components of certain retardant products (total ammonia, un-ionized ammonia, nitrate and nitrite and sodium ferrocyanide).
As discussed above, corrosion inhibitors are considered toxic substances; the toxicity test conducted on animals (rats) has determined the lethal dose of fire retardant mixtures. For a fire retardant mixture that contains sodium dichromate as a corrosion inhibitor, the lethal dose considered is 3 L of retardant mixture for a man weighing 90 kg (USA Department of Health, Education and Welfare Toxic Substance List).
——————————————————————————————-
What I have found with the toxic studies they are usually done by the companies involved or else funded by such with their pet scientists, etc. For instance the pharma companies usually do their own testing and present it what they have to the proper government agencies to get approval to sell their drug.
The English makers of Thalidomide for ten years continued to disperse the drug despite the many complaints that people believed it was causing people to be born with only a trunk. Even the government was backing them for the longest until about 100,000 babies had been born with horrible deformities to live with the rest of their lives.
I am always suspicious when companies do their own investigations. We saw that at Yarnell to the greatest of degrees. How well they manipulated their public story and how hard it has been to get the real story out. The public trusts them and once they make up a story, the public is quick to accept.
We need that to change to independent investigators.
Obviouslywhat WTKTT has posted is very important to health issues and staying alive. Anytime a half gallon of something will put you in boot hill you had better know that substance is dangerous in any amount. The idea that this toxin is spread in out environment and near our residence is about as criminal as you can get. Now we understand why Yarnell has had so many deaths and illnesses after the 2013 and later Tenderfoot wild fires. The amounts dumped and surrounding Yarnell and even on residents I have not officially verified but believe to be approximating 500,000 pounds. Somewhere then in the neighborhood of 250 tons. If that is true then it will be a wonder if half the population of 650 survives the next ten years. That retardant toxin is deadly.
Something with Fire Retardant Slurry that needs to be stressed is that these retardants once applied to heat they change to different toxins–many more toxic than the original slurry. That gets into the smoke and the air and dust makeup encountered in the environment after the fire
Joy and I began hiking immediately after the fire since we wanted to see the sites and what had happened, even following the complete route we had hiked and followed the route the 19 hotshots had taken as well. Those early hikes had us covering our faces with rags that were turning black. And of course it was soon we were hiking people almost daily to the area. I do not know if she has photos of us early on but our clothes and faces were covered with the contaminated soot of that area. Even later photos of hikes we made –one with the author Fernanda show me with the soot on my face and clothes–that was weeks after the fire.
So you can imagine what the wild land fire fighter goes through since he is in there right after the fire cleaning up and quenching small burns, Well you see them all sooted up. And as Gary mentions they continued to wear their contaminate clothes for days-maybe even weeks during the fie work.
It is similar to mining where say in Uranium mining we left our diggers, showered–you would have 300 men in a huge shower can you imagine–then your locker to keep your diggers and street clothes. The next day and for the time you were there you seldom washed your diggers if ever–but would continue to use them dirty since they remained in your locker for the next shift. We should have had a change every day but that was not a thing imagined to do. Like the wild land fire fighter we were wearing contaminated clothing throughout the day that should have been replaced with clean clothing on a shift basis.
There is no secret that the wild land fire fighter and fire fighters in general will later in life suffer so many ill effects–and these are multiple starting with lung issues. Gary is correct in warning the young fire fighter to use his respirator. However, I feel that is probably a thing that will continue to be skirted. What needs to be done is a restriction on fire retardants in areas they work since many of these chemicals are absorbed right through the skin. Up to 60% of solutions applied to the skin are absorbed into the internal areas of the body.
Women and now men who apply make up ought to see what chemicals they are absorbing. Many of the clays in make up and the massive amounts of clays in the slurry concoctions contain asbestos. The retardant companies will not test the clays for this you can bet. There are also tritymites and crystobllites –tiny silica crystals that add to the lung problems and develope into problems such as silicosis. But you can know they add to COPD and situations concerning lungs. Likely part of my own cystic fibrosis and early COPD.
We are the guinea pigs who did not know we were in later life to be such. The whole town of Yarnell is populated with people in the class–unknowing guinea pigs but I bet a few resent my saying so. Life is not fair, sometimes you become something you did not mean to be. So some are not only cookie cutters and cowboys but also now guinea pigs. A guinea pig so defined is an experimental animal–not necessarily just a guinea pig in the conventional way of thought.
(I resent being one myself and detest the fact that so many I knew are now either dead or terribly ill.)
In the Yarnell case it is incidental and was not a free choice–but looking at the statistics there a now many sick and dead people.
Also…
KQED Science
Fire Retardant Use Explodes as Worries About Water, Wildlife Grow
Published: Nov 27, 2017 by Matt Weiser
https://www.kqed.org/science/1917995/fire-retardant-use-explodes-as-worries-about-water-wildlife-grow
From that article…
——————————————————————————————-
Chemical fire retardants are considered a vital wildland firefighting tool, helping to slow the spread of flames while ground crews move into position. But as their use increases, the harmful side effects of these chemicals are coming under increasing scrutiny.
The chemicals, usually dropped from low-flying aircraft, largely consist of ammonia compounds, which are known toxins to fish and other aquatic life. Studies have shown retardants can kill fish, alter soil chemistry, feed harmful algae blooms and even encourage the spread of invasive plants. Yet there is little regulation of their use, and no safer alternatives on the market.
In California, state firefighting crews have applied 15.3 million gallons of chemical fire retardants so far this year, according to data provided by CalFire, the state’s wildland firefighting agency. That’s a new record, and double the amount used just three years ago.
The growth of retardant use in California has outpaced federal firefighting: In 2016, the United States Forest Service applied 19 million gallons of retardant on all National Forest system lands in the nation, an increase of 55 percent compared to three years earlier.
Timothy Ingalsbee, executive director of Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics and Ecology, said chemical fire retardants are overused. They are intended only to slow a fire down so that ground crews have time to reach a fire front and build containment lines. Instead, retardants are being used in place of ground crews, he said.
“It looks good on TV – ‘CNN Drops’ is a term firefighters use,” Ingalsbee said. “Eventually, the fire burns through that stuff and keeps on trucking.
In 2014, scientists at the National Marine Fisheries Service published a study showing that two fire-retardant formulations are deadly to Chinook salmon, even when heavily diluted in streams.
The chemicals killed salmon at concentrations well below 1 percent of the strength at which the retardants are applied. And the study found the chemicals had lasting effects: Even salmon that survived initially could be killed weeks later when they migrated to salt water, apparently because the chemicals damaged their gills.
The retardants evaluated in the study, known by the trade names 259-F and LC-95A, are made by Phos-Chek, the U.S. subsidiary of an Israel-based company called ICL Performance Products. Both retardants are still in use by both the Forest Service and CalFire.
The primary ingredient in retardants is an ammonium phosphate or sulfate solution – essentially a type of fertilizer. Other ingredients are exempt from public disclosure under federal law as trade secrets. But one is a gelling agent that allows the ammonia solution to cling to plants, temporarily insulating them from heat and flame to deprive an advancing fire of fuel.
Dietrich said it’s likely that MVP-F will also be deadly to salmon. The concentration known to be toxic to fish, as reported by the manufacturer, is still less than 1 percent of the concentration at which the retardant is released by aircraft. This means, again, that it can be heavily diluted in the environment and still remain deadly to fish.
The unknown proprietary ingredients in retardants may play a role in this, he said.
“They’re definitely enhancing toxicity,” Dietrich said.
“Whether they are working with ammonia or just causing separate effects that are accumulating, I couldn’t say. There is some other source of toxicity that comes into play.”
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Very good post by WTKTT. Are these firefighters and the men involved in spreading chemicals reading the facts? I hope so and I hope the politicos and people with influence start understanding the need to curb this toxic dumping especially near human habitation.
If CNN would start telling the truth about these red and orange slurry photos people would begin to gasp at seeing them. They would see them more in the likes of the Agent Orange that sickened the Vietnam soldiers. You see how long it took for the government to recognize how terrible the Agent Orange was to the soldier.
The retardant that can be shown to be more devastating on health than Agent Orange will have the same problem of being shown for what it is. Yet the people that are main stream media need to be getting the true information out and not the glory lies put out by the retardant companies making the huge profits and caring less about what they do to the health of people, the environment, aquatic life, especially fish, and the terrible miles of red algae that have become ocean dead zones.
May the dead of Yarnell bear upon the media people to do their jobs–expose the truth hidden like the secret and toxic chemicals dumped in the thousands of tons on our planet.
Sonny,
I have never given my opinion regarding slurry here on this thread, but now I am about to do so…drum roll please. I think slurry is a huge waste of money and it’s extensive use has more to do with the influence their industry has on politicians in Washington D.C. through their lobbyists and campaign contributions than a net gain in any legitimate cost to benefit ratio study. I developed that opinion very early in my 10 years as a hotshot and my conviction that I was right only grew over time as I witnessed more and more and more waste.
I was probably dropped on more than two dozen times over my 10 years and I worked in close proximity to massive amounts of dropped slurry many more times than that where the slurry was burned through by the fire and then I was subjected to the toxic chemicals that then would have been carried by the smoke.
I can also tell you that in the macho curious world of wildland firefighters during my time, there was never any talk, considerations or concern given to the fact that the chemicals in retardant were toxic and posed a danger to WLF to the point that I witnessed some firefighters who allowed themselves to be bathed in slurry because when they went back to fire camp, it was worn as a mark of manliness because if you were wearing slurry, that meant you had been where the action was.
I never did that because I don’t remember ever changing fire clothes while on a fire because the dirtier and more sweat stained your shirt and pants were, it usually meant the harder you had worked. Few things drew more scorn and ridicule in the WLF world more than clean fire clothes. Anyway, I never deliberately let myself get nailed by slurry because that meant you would be wearing it until you got home and after it dried out, it would cause chaffing around your neck and shirt cuffs, or wherever your skin came in contact with the edges of your clothing. Plus…it smelled like cow manure.
So…I can tell you one thing for sure to add to the list of things THEY should be keeping track of that we have revealed here on this thread unless things have drastically changed in the closed world of FIRE in my absence. THEY need to add training on the chemicals in retardant and the dangers those chemicals pose to WLF and why.
You may think that would be self evident, but I can assure you that it is not. In fact…that thought never even occurred to me until my participation here on this thread and reading what you wrote. In fact, if you remember I argued against you for a few years writing that if you were right, the slurry would be killing me now because I had been exposed to so much of it. And then one day it occurred to me and I said to myself, “Hey…stupid fuck, why are you arguing that slurry isn’t dangerous to people, you’re not a chemical scientist or environmental hazard specialist and how do you know, that very well may what is killing you!”
In fact, I hated getting nailed by slurry so much, it didn’t take me long to figure out that THEY don’t know what the fuck THEY are talking about when THEY tell you to prone out on the ground facing the drop so your hard hat will help protect you. I learned to step behind the biggest tree around me and hug the trunk. Now…there are probably good reasons why THEY don’t want an entire 20 person crew all running around looking for the biggest tree to hide behind, but hey, that’s THEIR problem because it worked for me. And of course that doesn’t work if their aren’t any. trees, but that very rarely happened.
WLF should also be trained to change out their fire clothes after being nailed by slurry because what most of them are doing now, (unless things have changed) is they are continuing to wear the same clothes because once again, clean fire clothes are a sign someone is a camp slug, a worthless overhead, is not on a hotshot crew, or has a mangina.
And once again, you would think that should be obvious, but we are talking mostly about hotshots here…so enough said. And that is because by wearing the same fire clothes for days or even weeks after being doused with slurry, they are continuing to breathe in dried particles of retardant from their clothing and line gear.
Now…as I have repeatedly stated, my view of the FIRE, was always from the standpoint of a grunt and ground pounder seeing the effects of slurry up close and personal and I can tell you without equivocation, I never once said or even thought to myself, “Thank God that air tanker showed up when he did and made that drop because it really saved the day or even bought us a reprieve.”
That never happened. Now I remember thinking often, “Well…that was a huge waste of money but they bitch (non gender specific) about us claiming a break in our time even though we never got one, but they drop that worthless, expensive shit all over the place at the wrong time, in the wrong place and in the wrong way, e.g., way to fuckin’ high and so it was too dispersed to do any good once it hit the ground. Now…I will freely admit my view was clearly myopic as a grunt and a ground pounder and I never saw the “Big Picture”, so I might have it all wrong. Air Attack and overheard may see it differently?
True Story Time
As I have written before, the only fire I know of where I could have killed some of my crew was on the Valdez Fire on the Pecos RD on the Santa Fe Anyway…after things settled down I wandered way out into the middle of a huge green valley that was the anchor point for the fire. I went out there to gather my thoughts, think about what had just happened and rearrange my line gear.
This was always a ritual for me that was fairly complex because I had to take off my hard hat, my bandannas, my radio (or radios) my line pack, my web gear, and take down my pants so I could tuck my shirt back it, dry out the sweat for a few minutes and then start to reverses the process to put myself back together.
Anyway…as a was standing in this huge green valley all by myself (the crew and everyone else was on the fire about 100 yards away) with my pants down…a huge bomber suddenly appeared from over the tree line…zeroed in on me and dropped his entire load of slurry right on top of me.
That pilot must have thought that was very funny. Those old bombers couldn’t land with their heavy loads of slurry if they weren’t dropped on the fire and so they would just find someplace to jettison them before returning to their bases.
And of course there wasn’t any big tree to step behind and I would have had a hard time hobbling to it anyway with my pants down. The crew thought it was pretty funny too and one of my squad bosses came to my LE retirement party and even told that story, which I had largely forgotten about until he reminded me.
Anyway…I will it say once again (because I have written this before) I think that perhaps the biggest flaw and misconception that came out of the movie and the in aftermath the Yarnell Hill Fire, was the suggestion or possibility that a drop from an air tanker, even that VLAT; could have saved the crew, was pure fantasy and fiction. If any WLF ever puts themselves in a position where they need to be saved by a slurry drop…they should just bend over and kiss their ass goodbye because they are already as good as dead.
And I don’t remember giving a summation of the Valdez Fire before? Anyway, we were the first ones on the fire which almost never happened. It was way up the Pecos Valley above the village of Pecos and the start was near the bottom of a very steep slope.
So…when we arrived, we stopped where we could see the column of black smoke coming straight up from (which meant it was a very hot fire in heavy very dry fuel without any wind on it) the road we were on was on top of the steep slope and we could see the fire directly below us. It as just a few acres in size and of course it was burning up the steep slope towards us. It was a baby dragon shortly after birth…and it was right there below us just waiting for us to kill it.
I could see the road snaking for miles as it wound its way down to the huge green valley below us and I knew that by the time we drive down there and started working the flank of the fire from the valley anchor point, it was going to be gone baby gone. The Pecos Valley was a very high resource area with lots of big timber that had been left for the forest visitors to marvel and the canyon was filled with private in holdings and acreage that has cabins and summer homes on it. Plus, in the direction it was burning, it could climb up out of the valley into the world famous Pecos Wilderness in the Sangre de Christo Mountains and make a mess.
Anyway…the temptation was too high for me to resist and I unloaded the crew on the spot, we tied our line to the road and yes…we started constructing hand line on a steep slope above the fire while I sent the bus on down to the valley below. And if you have been paying attention, you can probably guess what happened about an hour later.
Yep…the wind came up from the valley below, hot the fire with a vengeance and the fiery dragon was suddenly full grown and on the rampage coming straight for for us as it blew past our two foot fire line like it wasn’t there because it was suddenly a crown fire. And I had to order the crew to run for their lives up the slope to the road in front of the fire. Whoops…I fucked that one up.
We had this FNG named Mathew Cory who kept trying to run every time a gust of wind came up and it tried to climb into the crown while rye rest of the crew kept their heads down as they furiously cut line as I watched the fire. Finally I went over to him and yelled at him over the roar of the flames, “ GOD DAMN IT CORY…ARE YOU TRYING TO RABBIT ON ME! I’ll TELL WHEN WHEN IT TIME TO RUN! And then I worked my way on down the crew line while I kept watching the fire.
It was a short time later I realized how serious my error in judgement had been when the fire suddenly blew up and I started running up the fire line. I hadn’t gotten very far past Cory as I worked my way down the very steep slope and as I chugged past Cory, I turned back to him and yelled, “OKAY CORY…IT’S TIME TO RABBIT NOW! And yes…I thought that was very funny.
Anyway…if you have been keeping track of my stories, you will already know what should be the unspoken (or maybe spoken) 11th Standard Fire Fighting Order because you will recognize that the only times I remember being in any real danger was the few times we were initial attack, which I have said rarely happened. And the fire was right there….right in front of us as a cute little baby dragon that looked like we could kill it pretty easy if we just got after it.
And those fires were the Clint’s Well Fire, the Huffer Fire, the fire were our crew boss parked right next to it and I took that photo of the exploding fire through the window from my seat on the bus and it’s RIGHT THERE! The fire on the Tonto that I showed we had to run from and there is a photo of me actually cutting line in front of one of my squad bosses and two crew members (the rest of the crew was fragmented into small groups, all working independently of each trying to pick up specific areas) and I spin around and start strait to run as the fire explodes from the sudden wind gust, and the Valdez Fire that also suddenly exploded from the sudden wind that hit it.
All of those fires have one thing in common, we were initial attack and we disregarded the rules because we thought if we jumped on them right away, we could kill them early as baby fires, but the wind suddenly came up and they exploded. And so our emotions and excitement that was fueled by the huge flood of adrenaline into our bodies overcame our training. I can’t believe we were the only ones that has happened to?
I was recently reading about how the Roman Legions deployed for battle (I know, I know, fuck me, I’m retired) and they had three lines of Legionaries. The lines would engage at different times, whereas their opponents always just ran up all at once and started hacking away.
The front line was all of their FNG’s. The second line were guys who had been on the job for awhile and they wouldn’t engage until the first line was tired out and then they would drop back behind the second line, who would then start fighting while the first line rested and then they would rotate again to give the second line time to rest.
They said that rather than just being one giant battle until you dropped from being tired or were killed, it was a series of thousands of individual battles that ebbed and flowed until one side couldn’t take it any more and turned to run and then is when the real slaughter started.
They had a term for when the first and second line had to fall back to the hard core veterans in the third line which meant in Latin, “We’re fucked now!” because that meant they were about to be overrun.
If things worked out good, and the first and second line tired out the opposing army, or the opposing army turned to run, then the officers would order third line of fresh and rested veterans to suddenly engage and win the battle. If the third line went forward too soon, it was bad, and if they went forward to late…it was bad, so timing was everything.
Whew…that was a long set up for the point I want to make with this analogy that just occurred to me as I was writing this post. In order to prevent the third line of veterans from letting their emotions, excitement and the flood of adrenaline into their bodies overcome their training, the officers would make them either squat down or kneel in place.
That’s what veteran firefighters should do before engaging a baby wildfire that hasn’t taken off yet. Take a knee and think it about what you are about to do while you go through all of the key points of your training and list of safety rules or “Watch Outs” as what’s-his-name called them in that stupid movie so you don’t let your emotions, excitement and adrenaline do your thinking for you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QCVt32O3eRY
Gary,
Much tougher and much better than the Romans were the Greek Spartans, trained from birth to be warriors. The book “Gates of Fire” by Steven Pressfield recounts the Battle of Thermopylae and the Persian War
To guide the young boys to learn discipline and prove their manhood to become Spartan warriors in order to gain citizenship, they performed relentless exercises to strengthen both their minds and bodies to overcome fear and pain.
One of the memorable things they practiced what was referred to as “tree-fucking.” The warrior-in-training boys were tasked with knocking down a large oak tree with only their shields. The lined up one behind the other, and literally bashed their shield against it repeatedly – in succession – until they pushed it over. If they did not succeed, they ran the risk of being labeled as weak and like Arnie says – “girlie men.”
No doubt, their training was for these trying times in battle:
“There was an exercise we of the battle train practiced when we served as punching bags for the Spartan heavy infantry. It was called the Oak because we took our positions along a line of oaks at the edge of the plain of Otona, where the Spartiates and the Gentleman-Rankers ran their field exercises in fall and winter. We would line up ten deep with body-length wicker shields braced upon the earth and they would hit us, the shock troops, coming across the flat in line of battle, eight deep, at a walk, then a pace, then a trot and finally a dead run. The shock of their interleaved shields was meant to knock the breath out of you, and it did. It was like being hit by a mountain. Your knees, no matter how
braced you held them, buckled like saplings before an earthslide; in an instant all courage fled our hearts; we were rooted up like dried stalks before the ploughman’s blade.”
“Although extraordinary valor was displayed by the entire corps of Spartans and Thespaians, yet bravest of all was declared the Spartan Dienekes. It is said that on the eve of battle, he was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, when they fired their volleys, the mass of arrows blocked out the sun. Dienekes, however, quite undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, “Good. Then we’ll have our battle in the shade.”
– HERODOTUS, THE HISTORIES
( https://www.docdroid.net/x8at/steven-pressfield-gates-of-fire-an-epic-novel-o-b.pdf )
Amazingly fruitful link here, and no need to convert it to a PDF, so just read it as it is!
Well…I have read how the Spartans took their young boys away from their parents at a very early age to train them as warriors and what they put them through and how they killed any defective babies. But obviously you are way ahead of me in reading up on Greco Roman history, so…thanks for the link.
And yes…the Oak sounds positively terrifying to have to face. I will point out however, that what put me to reading specifically about how the Roman Legions deployed for battle, was reading about Macedonia and how up until the Macedonian Wars, the Greek Phalanx.had been the dominant heavy infantry formation of it’s time.
And then I was curious as to how the Roman Legion battle formation could have possibly been superior to what I have always read about the the Greek Phalanx? And that led to learning about the three deep Legion formation and how they often had to make their veterans kneel down to keep them from surging forward into battle prematurely and I could suddenly relate to how we had been as hotshots with those fires….which was bad, really bad.
It never worked out for the best…we never killed any baby dragons that I can remember, they always got too big too fast. So…I can definitely say that starting at a good anchor point with a flanking maneuver for the long slug fest like we had been taught would have been the best way to do it every time. Adrenaline instantly flooding into your system can really alter your perception of reality and cloud your better judgment…just FYI.
Clarification,
I was a little harsher on Mathew Cory than I normally was because he was a brand new guy who had been hired as a replacement later in the season and so that was his first fire. And he was an older Anglo hippie guy and I didn’t want him spooking any of those younger kids on my crew by running, although nobody else was even looking up. The Santa Fe Hotshots had their heads down cutting fire line like Spartans!
And the reason it was a bad situation…is because when the wind caused the fire to hit our fire line, instead of burning with the slope in a southerly direction, the wind blew it east against the flank we were working on. And at that point, it had hooked around below us and so when it resumed burning with the slope as a crown fire, we were directly above it. It was definitely time to di di mau most ricky tick! When I say I fucked up…I mean I really fucked up. Mea culpa! I feel better now that I have publicly confessed my greatest sin after all of these years.
And the Rogue River Canyon where I live and the entire Rogue River Valley are now just giant geographical bowls of trapped smoke for the past three days now. It’s bad..really bad. It’s good for the general public to learn a little bit about what WLF go through on their behalf though. 😎
Oh…and more more thing Joy. I apologize for being so harsh with you the other day and for being such a Richard Cranium.
I am extra sensitive right now because my Special Lady Friend told me I can’t go and visit her until I get rid of my nasty cough and that is why I am leaving soon to go and seek medical treatment for my condition. I have some incentive now to get better.
But…none of that excuses the way I wrote to you. And yes…I am sure we can all agree that you have grown by leaps and bounds as a FBAN and I hope your presentation in D.C. went well. So…
Mr. Gary Olson-
You know if Sonny would step in here —- in knowing me, no apologies needed ever- we all have or wear many faces throughout our lifetimes…walk many different paths some with detours…many with imperfections and reflections…
I have tried to fact check over and over and my chief (Congress) said Hi Joy we did not have anybody get burned on that fire i wish people that
know the leased wold ask like you do before they start rumors but thereare no osha reports or medical reports for are department on that fire
THANKS Virgil Suitor
Wednesday, July 31, 2019 4:12 PM
yet it is not yet done…when I was desert walking after the YH Fire from Wickenburg to Congress my subdvivisions developer’s wife told me Wickenburg Hospital had local FD treated for burns but due to HIPPA could not say more –
One of Helm’s neighbors for sure named Congress FD as being treated for bilateral hand burns and three others stated they too saw the same and even spoke to them so either someone did not share to the Chief or something is not right yet these homeowners can recount that afternoon strongly so for now it is shelved information.
This past week I was judged very strongly for my participation with IM and it was shared that not one person here contributes any good to YH Fire and this is a very bad place – a pool of some sort of words – but I think we all come here for the same reason (YH FIRE) to discuss and at times more… but I am very sorry others view IM as they do-
I am not well and bruised up and resting and trying to turn the Power Point into a PDF them JPG so I can post it soon…
I really liked Washington DC, Gary
ALOT!
I am thinking of seasonally retiring there-
The homes…the flora…the people…I had great times with family and friends too…I had a great time at all the eateries yet I really had a good time at https://www.fiolamaredc.com/menus and talked with an Arabian Horse breeder and his stunning lady – really top notch down time. I highly suggest you bring your special lady friend there for a few special drinks and such…
The conference did not go as it was originally set out to do and yes IM thread of verbiage maybe contributed to it- not sure if it was a scare off yet have not heard back yet from them…
I am not a person who has the energy to others concerns –
like the ol’ I cancelled my subscription to others’ issues …
either way I am trying to get back in gear…45 pound vest in 45 minutes and three miles is my next task to do for the next Wildland program…
I did get a chance to visit an author and it oddly answered so many unanswered areas that Charlie Moseley told me about yet I never wanted to believe about this person yet it came true last week…yet that is “offline” life stuff but it was not how I expected it to unfold – I thought I could sit and give some YHF data and all I was told is dead ends is my future yet I am going to remain hopeful and that in God’s time it will all work out – I like the person so I will not elaborate but one of my infamous “timestamped notepad” moments for me
Hope you know as I share to Sonny-
Not one person – special lady friend or not – should make conditions to meet up –
They either accept you as you are or just embrace another as it is shown…
I was thinking how Sonny at one point on the trails was trying to teach me how to drip torch on his land and boy I sure have grown up so much since then…I was baby dropping in slow motion time back then and I want you to know Sonny as I learn Wildland Terminology you really do know a lot about fires and you taught me so much…
I am heading off due to a storm….night.
oh and their oscietra imperial gold caviar was a nice added touch to my trip at fiola mare-
been years since I seen fine foods and fine company…you simply do not see that on the paths and trails Sonny showed me…his was good too because he lives organic yet I do like my saltimbocca if done right…they had it on the menu at $95 a plate, Gary…but yeah nice place for your special friend
Better a gold caviar than a gold cadaver. We have too many of the latter after the Yarnell fire.
Was anything outstanding presented or learned at the DC shin dig?
Charlie says
JULY 31, 2019 AT 7:38 PM
Better a gold caviar than a gold cadaver. We have too many of the latter after the Yarnell fire.
Was anything outstanding presented or learned at the DC shin dig?
——————————–
in my opinion- Sonny, no.
The power point addressed stuff I have said here on IM…the areas pulled were because people “bailed” and maybe it seems they got nervous yet they still have an account to be told. Today, I am looking for the evidence to show my chief of what was said about a Congress FD and uploading the presentation to the blog and you can make your own assessment…yet to me it was just in a sense a recap of the blog-
There has not yet been an answer to how many were present and or registered just presenters assumptions but I can tell you South Korea should have it viral by now what GTS means…
,Joy,
Thank you…I’m sorry your program didn’t go as planned. And if I ever talk my Special Lady Friend into going out to dinner, I appreciate your advice, but my cough and breathing is pretty disgusting, it even bothers me. So I can understand how someone else might not like to listen to it.
Sonny,
I hear what you are saying about the water, but I really do think it drifts too much and evaporates too fast to truly be effective.
And it’s not a question of WEIGHT…it’s a question of VOLUME, the tanks can only be so big, so I don’t think they could carry more water even though it is lighter.
I think my view was just too narrow and that slurry must do some good, maybe a lot of good, I don’t know?
So…people are just going to have to make a choice…no slurry and bigger fires, or use slurry and accept the health risks.
You and I understand by now that life is a series of choices, trade-offs and compromises. Which is a real BUMMER!
RTS,
I can’t help but question the conclusion that the Roman battle formation was superior to the Greek Phalanx?
The Roman victories in the Macedonian Wars might have more to do with the fact that they were an empire with almost unlimited manpower and resources fighting against a group of small city states who seemed to spend more time fighting each other than outside enemies like the Romans and Persians?
So…maybe the Greek Phalanx was a superior heavy infantry formation after all? I do think you are right and man for man…the Spartans were probably the best fighters the world has ever seen.
And as we all know…Alexander the Great did have a pretty good run at it using the phalanx, so….
Gary –Is that the Rogue River that runs through the Medford, Oregon area? Lots of timber-grass and shrubbery in that area and that Medford had fog that would hang for days.
Yes…that’s the place and you’re right, the thick fog can fill this valley like nothing I have seen before and then stay there. It does the same thing with smoke from fires. There is a pretty big one up by Canyonville. I fought fire with crew in this country back in the day, with Happy Jack on Oregon State land in a big drainage off the Rogue.called Graves Creek. It was the Graves Creek Fire of 1978.
Yes I lived in Phoenix for a year (that one south of Medford) and did quite a bit of gold panning on the Illinois River. Pretty country but cold winter unlike Seattle that warm ocean doesn’t help much there.
I can bet there will be plenty fires in there throughout the years.
Yep
So…here is how I think this lesson should be taught.
Standard Fire Fighting Order Number 11
“Take a knee and review the basics before committing yourself or your forces to any direct action and then don’t do anything stupid.”
Gary Olson says
JULY 31, 2019 AT 12:25 AM
So…here is how I think this lesson should be taught.
Standard Fire Fighting Order Number 11
“Take a knee and review the basics before committing yourself or your forces to any direct action and then don’t do anything stupid.”
MY REPLY:
or like the Prescott Mayor who sold you a lemon long ago said – “Common Sense”
😎
Gary,
Remember Los Alamos? I do. So does my doctor that has a copy of ALL my exposure reports from the same shit, including Retardant. I fear for myself and my friends that swim in it on IA’s and larger fires. It killed the trout population on multiple blazes I’ve been on. When you stop using fire center employees and use Pho’s-Check personnel, you know they are FOS and know it causes health issues. Nice work WETTKT, RTS, Joy, Charlie and all. Finally the Mud is exposed.
Thanks Downhillndirect–It is these reports on health issues that will eventually open up the eyes of the media to start demanding answers and secret ingredients. That is the only reason I post my problems–these damn politicians won’t do much until enough people and especially the main stream media starts looking into it.
One life saved is a world saved.
Yes…I remember Los Alamos. I’ll let you know what the doctors say after I get all checked out here on this thread. I think there are lots of people out there who have similar problems to the ones I have. I really think they do need to put more thought into protecting WLF lungs and throats, in addition to unnecessary exposure to dangerous chemicals.
Drinking fresh ginger before exposures is a good start and what else did you tell me Sonny…was it garlic?
Thanks Gary and WTKTT–and I understand the macho part–I use to think of myself as the Cassius Clay of Underground Miners–you sure did not want to portray yourself as a milquetoast among miners, loggers or cowboys. I am certain there were some more Cassius Clays there and I knew some damn good miners.
But the facts are different today. I went in to the doctor yesterday–this breathing problem has escalated quite a bit. Well the nurse of 33 years says you have fibrosis of the lungs–that is most likely due to your mining over the years. There is not much we can do but keep taking that inhaler twice a day and that should help. So I challenged myself to a rabbit hunt. I wanted to gather some mesquite beans as well. Then there is an Indian site I wanted to look over as well about 5 miles southwest of me.
I managed to get the the boys (my dogs) a jack rabbit and then stopped at that site. It must have been several hundred Indians because I kept walking and it is an area covering several hundred yards. Yet I was having to make every effort to walk the area–I had brought along a Guinness to revive me and did drink it to see if it would help. Not much I had to leave with very little more walking.
But that extra walking wound up being torture since I had plenty of chest pain after and had not gotten off the bed for several hours. I really do believe much of my problems came from the mining–one mine, that gold mine in California was in arseno-pyrite and for two years I was the only miner other than Vern Harkness, the owner. He had no water needles in his machine so I was drilling dry and breathing what I now know is a toxic dust. But in your younger years you think your lungs will do the job and clear out–spit out the black minerals and then a few beers and you will be OK. But now we pay but we also hope our experience will help the younger ones to understand these companies are not out to worry about your health. They will dump the poisons on you and they will carry on dumping the toxins either unknowingly or without conscience when their pay checks are ample.
It remains to those that have suffered the ill effects to warn others–their health is going to rest mainly upon their own shoulders.
I am glad WTKTT came out with that good information. The slurry will kill you if you drink it and 3 kg is about 6.6 pounds–not a lot to kill a 200 pounder. You could kill me with only about 5 pounds of that toxin at my weight. And if it will do that with that small amount can, I can imagine how this toxin is eroding away the health of people exposed to it.
I do know that the same volume of slurry weighs 1 and one half times as much as water. I wonder what your thoughts are as the the effectiveness of water versus the slurry considering you can carry such a greater volume of water at the same weight as the slurry. Your long time experience on the fire lines would say much concerning the use of water vs. slurry.
Thanks again for posting Gary and WTKTT–I will pass this on to those Aussies interested in chemicals involved in our retardants and their health effects.
I had not known there were 15.3 million tons of slurry in California alone this year. Imagine the years of accumulation and no wonder the dead ocean zones.
I missed that one bad–WTKTT posted 3L not 3Kg would kill a 200 pounder. Good lord that is not even a gallon. A gallon has 4.54 liters. So you could kill me with a little over half a gallon of retardant.
I do know I was one of those taxed at Yarnell from my earlier occupations. And like the rest of those that are above 50, that shit has really done a number on me. I believe I would have continued on with just like I was before the retardant drops–able to easily make 15 mile hikes. Now I look at a football field hike as a challenge. Let those retardant people try to tell me the retardant is not dangerous to anyone’s health and a killer to those that are working with low immune systems or age related problems.
Since the 1970s, an increasing number of regulations have expanded the use of brominated and chlorinated flame retardants. Many of these chemicals are now recognized as global contaminants and are associated with adverse health effects in animals and humans, including endocrine and thyroid disruption, immunotoxicity, reproductive toxicity, cancer, and adverse effects on fetal and child development and neurologic function. Some flame retardants such as polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDEs) have been banned or voluntarily phased out by manufacturers because of their environmental persistence and toxicity, only to be replaced by other organohalogens of unknown toxicity. Despite restrictions on further production in some countries, consumer products previously treated with banned retardants are still in use and continue to release toxic chemicals into the environment, and the worldwide use of organohalogen retardants continues to increase
The retardant Phos Check came into use in 1962 under the chemical giant Monsanto. It was sold to other companies and now is in control of an Israeli Company. This shit is world wide–you can see the it is big in Australia. Those phosphate mines have to be in high gear right now.
The Australian Scientists tell me that even more dangerous are the chemical toxins created once the slurry interacts with the fire. I had mentioned that before but they have a lot more than what I had imagined.
And that remains something that has really, truly never been researched in any comprehensive way.
It is no wonder that these retardant slurry people use the secret trade laws to hide their chemicals.
I am still amiss as to why water is not a better alternative being much lighter and no damage to the environment. Well I am not, consider that water is cheap and cuts out the chemical companies. The size of this Israeli Company and in bed with Monsanto, etc. tells me that their influence on the shit-heads that OK these slurry dumps are going to continue feeding the profits to these giants and at the same time turning a blind eye to any effects they may have on humans, aquatic life, environment and ocean dead zones.
Phos Chek is a nasty name even if the main ingredients were only ammonium phosphates. How can these political men that make the rules turn a blind eye when they know this stuff is killing hundreds of millions of fish and other aquatic life and taking its toll on the environment and human life? I have to believe someone is feathering their beds in the best goose down available for them to continue to allow these crimes against man and the planet.
I think they should just use all of the money they spend on air drops period to hire more hotshots, keep all of them on year round and pay them more.
All of the problems I have identified with slurry will be there with water as well but it would be exacerbated because water weighs less and would drift more, disperse more and dry out even faster.
Based on my experience…air drops come too little, too late, dropped in the wrong place, at the wrong time and in the wrong way, in addition to being dependent on to too many variables like the weather (especially the wind) smoke or cloud cover, all while pilots and aircraft time out and have to fly too far too reload. Tanker bases aren’t located everywhere.
Although for big project fires it is possible to set up temporary tanker mixing facilities bases at the right kind of airports, but I don’t think that is done very often? We would often have air tankers coming all the way from Coolidge, Arizona to drop on the Santa Fe if the planes from ABQ were already committed somewhere else.
But…the big chemical companies and the politicians they own aren’t going to let that happen.
But…you did ask the opinion of a former hotshot. If you are a hammer…everything looks like a nail. 😎
Whoops, I should have written:
“I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument
Gary so the water is not a great alternative in your experience? I could see the wind a factor in either–in fact the small plane drop early on Sunday, June 30, 2013 at the fire edge on top the Weavers was useless from what I could see. It dispersed so thinly from the altitude it was let go that you could see it was a waste.
I have see wild land fire fighter posts from firefighters that say this is just a show for the public and CNN. An expensive show when you figure up all the money it costs the taxpayer along with the damage added in to life and the environment and oceans.
I think it is for payoffs to the chemical and even the air tanker companies lobby the politicians pretty hard. And water just mostly disperses in the air and dries out really fast. I think it’s all a waste.
One thing for sure Gary–you were one that was dealt a bad hand. I get it–same with mining–the young man is not warned about the dangers involved in the Uranium, Lead and Silica dust he works in. Neither is the fireman warned about the retardant and especially after it is applied to a fire and mixed into the smoke. You can bet there are very few wild land fire fighters that do not suffer health issues and soon have either COPD, Lung Cancer, Heart Attack, Renal issues, Cancer and general health issues that they never expected nor knew would be the end result of their work. The chemical companies know things for certain yet they will continue to propagate the idea these retardants are safe. Do no believe it but I do not know if those respirators will do much good. If you wore one for ten years and still have the effects of the chemicals and smoke I have to wonder if the only solution is to keep that damn chemical poison out of the air and back in the earth where it belongs.
The government needs to quit funding those drops in the billions and put some of those billions to work for helping those that gave their lives and health to that fire fighting job.
Water may not do as good a job but it is safe and cheap and will not ruin people’s health.
Gary, your testimony does more to help with understanding the toxic effects of Phos Chek and other retardant pollutants than my own ever could. You have been exposed long time to the retardants and now have to live with the effects–it is not a pleasant ending for a hero.
These industries have and will generally put profits before humanity unless regulated by law. They will work every angle to keep any regulations mandatory despite their knowledge of how dangerous to human heath, aquatic life, environment, and ocean life these toxins they use are–even to the point of hiding some of their toxins under secret trade laws. Those laws they have to cover their criminal activities they will continue to lobby to keep and any scientific proof of the toxicity of their profit makers will be downplayed.
It is only by the testimony of competent people of good character that are in the fire fighting community that the problem can be exposed. No one wants to see our fire fighting heroes assigned to a retirement of sickness, nor a truth that hundreds of thousands of fish and aquatic life are documented and dead from the phosphates and retardants not to mention the ocean dead zones–yet that is what the toxic chemical retardants have created.
What terrible miscarriage of justice it is that a person who has dedicated his live to the dangerous task of battling wildfires that at any moment could snuff out his life in the most horrible way imaginable could have to in his later years again in a battle for his life in ways almost as horrible had he been killed by fire or smoke.
Because of these chemicals he had endured he faces a situation that should not be. He had been led to believe they were harmless and that he had no worries to contemplate–yet he was being exposed to some of the most deadly chemicals known to man. These companies that profited so hugely can not be held gultless–they must pay these heroes in real compensation and hugely for health is more valuable than money and they have been keen at reaping the profits while sickening the country’s heroes.
At 8% of hideden chemicals in Phos-Chek, we have 1600 pounds of hidden chemicals per ten ton load. If Yarnell had 500,000 pounds of retardant dispersed then 40000 pounds of that secret chemical toxin was hidden from the public view. That would be 20 tons of the secret ingredients.
Whoever knows what the secret ingredients are owes it to his fellow man to inform us of what these things are –even anonymously so these are no longer secret. Would you want me to come to your community and disperse 20 tons of chemicals about your yard and small city? Hell no you would yell to the top of your lungs to keep your shit off my town.
I am not a sneaky person since I like to come out and say it the way I see it and especially if that will save someone from ending up in the poor health I now have. These chemicals are debilitating and devastating especially to the elders yet also cumulative in their effects on the health of the younger people.
There have to be ways people can publish the secret chemicals used in the retardant and keeping completely anonymous. So I was thinking that posting from a library computer under an anonymous name might be a good way. But there are people that are good at these things–WTKTT might have good input on that but so would any professional investigator such as Gary Olson.
The Olson family were involved in the CIA and it was an Olson that was a CIA operative that was doped with LSD and either thrown out a 15 story window or jumped out. He was not one to go along with the flow of what they were doing so it may well have been murdered. The report had read that Olson had died in an accident resulting in either suicide or falling through a window. I think that was in the 70’s when CIA was conducting the mind control tests.
murdered should have been murder–I sometimes forget to proofread before posts which is usual–please forgive my butchering of the King’s English.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-4476
Sonny-
remember this comment
seems time has gone by but very little is discussed ever on that cloud contaminated on a CLEAR DAY (Storm in the distance) that we saw Sonny so how is it we never much discuss the Ignition Events or that Yellow and White helicopter which we did talk to the SAIT about but never made it to the report. ????Why don’t we talk about 9:45am and why haven’t we talked about the footprints out there on the Weavers …. how about the MORE HEAT and LESS SMOKE … let us talk about that SATURATION … why don’t we talk about Shumate’s “both directions” ( at least TWO main smoke column centers ) … Roy Hall? Fernandez? My photos show the blue skies that morning … Does anyone remember Barry Hicks and Shumate telling him that the fire had finally stopped and there was little smoke left – THAT IS WHAT THE HIKERS hiked up to –
AFUE is failing the world by not sharing their data on the YH Fire.
why is there no rage from the WF Industry to FORCE AFUE to tell us the pure data–
what about the three ring binder…come on …. Really dickheads if you can sleep every day and be okay with it…
Sonny- another important key point was in this comment
https://www.investigativemedia.com/chapter-iv-comments/#comment-9216
Time to call EVERYONE who was even there
that day back in for more interviews.
Here’s an interesting article that deals primarily with municipal FF deaths, however, there are several human factors that relate directly to the WF world and of course, the tragic events of June 30, 2013.
Examining the role of culture in firefighter deaths – Can NIOSH capture the impact of department culture rooted in unsafe actions? – June 10, 2019 – Chief Brief with Gary Ludwig
Chief Ludwig admits to being a student of the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) Firefighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program investigations of firefighter line-of-duty deaths (LODDs). He admits that the investigators do a fine job of examining the ensuing events “and developing recommendations to prevent future firefighter deaths.”
We can only do our part to lessen FF deaths because we will NEVER be able to prevent them all, only some.
He then lists these as the “NIOSH Five”
“(1) Improper Risk Assessment
(2) Lack of Incident Command
(3) Lack of Accountability
(4) Inadequate Communications
(5) Lack of SOPs or failure to follow established SOPs”
It sure looks a lot like the outcome of the YH Fire IMT and the GMHS on June 30, 2013.
To his credit, he suggests a “NIOSH Six, considering the vital role of department culture in firefighter safety. A CULTURE OF UNSAFE ACTIONS LEADS TO FIREFIGHTER FATALITIES
“ But some fire departments embrace cultures that are inherently negative and behaviors that are pervasively unsafe. Allowing firefighters not to wear seatbelts and not be in proper PPE on the fireground are just some common examples of fire department culture that can lead to firefighter deaths. ” Sounds like the PFD and the GMHS …
” THE IMPACT OF THE NORMALIZATION OF DEVIANCE
“Too many fire departments allow unsafe practices that then become common practice – and continue to foster a culture of unsafe actions. This is called a “normalization of deviance,” and it is the same problem that lead to the Challenger Explosion in 1986 and that can lead to firefighter deaths and injuries.”
Once again, it sounds like the PFD and the GMHS …
” CULTURAL CHANGE STARTS WITH LEADERSHIP
“Changing the culture in any fire department requires changing behaviors. For a firefighter to change their behavior, they have to believe in the change, and that change starts at the top of the organization. That’s right, cultural change starts with the leadership! If leadership allows a culture of unsafe practices without intervention, it sends a message to subordinates that the behaviors are permissible.”
“Leadership needs to set the example through practice and action, not just saying so. Leadership needs to set the direction, not by asking WHAT firefighters do on the fireground by WHY they do it. There can be a thin line between being overly aggressive (and even heroic) and downright unsafe. The firefighter who is always looking to put another medal on their chest at the next award ceremony is also probably willing to make poor decisions on the fireground. This is the type of mentality that must be addressed at all levels of the organization, starting at the top.”
Once again, it sounds like the PFD and the GMHS regarding the overly aggressive and heroism thing and maybe even the YH Fire IMT …
“Culture is not something that is easily measured, but it is certainly something that needs to be examined when it comes to firefighter safety. I hope the NIOSH investigators can someday capture department culture as part of its evaluation of incidents to determine if culture-based changes are in order to prevent future LODDs.”
Good ideas and noble goals from Chief Ludwig.
( https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-chief/articles/394280018-examining-the-role-of-culture-in-firefighter-deaths/?utm_source=FireRescue1+Member+Newsletter&utm_campaign=5d37c99ca3-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_07_22_08_45&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_758bdbeffe-5d37c99ca3-63630799 )
texiebaby19
9:55 AM (4 hours ago)
to me
I posted this photo of the red slurry dumped in our forests. Do you want this in your residential area? God forbid after reviewing the Yarnell effects of retardant on the health of people whom have suffered this type dumping in several loads.
Now I would like to address one of the physical properties of retardant–there are different brands and solutions used but I will use PhosChek as an example since they all approximate the same ingredients. PhosChek has 8% or less of hidden chemicals added-unknown and hidden from public view. These Jumbo jet loads can be up to 10 tons dropped at a time which might be the amount dropped in that photo I posted.
Folks, that is 1600 pounds, almost a ton of hidden chemicals involved. In some of these solutions there is up to 15% of hidden chemicals making it to over a tone of the hidden chemicals added to the slurry. A 15% solution slurry would yield 1 and 1/2 tons hidden chemical per ten ton load. Several of these Jumbo jet loads surrounded Yarnell.
This slurry starts as a white powder and iron oxide (FE2O3) is the red to orange powder added to the slurry to give it color. Water is then mixed in to make the slurry that is dropped into the environment. Once the slurry lands upon a burning fire it, the water is evaporated–much of it before it engages the fire and ground. Of course heat always creates a reaction on the chemicals so new chemicals are formed–some vastly more toxic than the already toxic slurry. The heat and evaporation results in leaving the powdery substance such that it can again become air born and does become a mixture both in the smoke and the air after the fire.
Consider also the Specific Gravity of PhosChek. It is 1.5 which means it is one and one half times as heavy as just water. That means the Jumbo Jets can deliver 15 tons of water where they could only deliver 10 tons of slurry. Those Jet drops are not cheap and consider that if you can drop 15 tons of water at the same cost of 10 tons of slurry and have no impact on the environment, wildlife, fish, oceans, humans, etc. then where is the advantage in using slurry instead of water?
I can tell you the advantage–it goes to the men making money out of the slurry. Certainly not to the oceans, the environment and aquatic life, nor to human health. Water is relatively cheap per ton considering that slurry is hovering around $3 per pound. At $3 per pound a 10 ton load would be worth $60,000 while water at $3 per ton would be $30. Now you get the picture why the Chemical Companies teamed up with FS officials tout the slurry over water. Profits first, environment, health, ocean life, etc. a secondary consideration.
My opinions facts are there but of course some water may be free and some may cost more than $3 a ton–I have paid about that price for drinking water–actually less where I was charged $5 per 1000 gallons when hauling water to my 5 acres out of Aguila, AZ. So my per ton cost there was only about $1.20 per ton. So a ten ton load of my fresh drinking water was $12 vs the $60,000 the FS pays for its slurry.
Why would they continue to use slurry at such a cost when water is two thirds lighter than the slurry and costs are negligible compared to that of slurry with no risk to the environment. But water gives no pretty display yet if a bit of the iron oxide to it and you get the same aerial effects if you are game to impress the public and the same red dye stain on the land.
Best chemical free and be safe.
file:///home/sonny/Pictures/Screenshot_2019-07-24_Fire_Retardant_DEIS_-_71615_FSPLT2_050375_pdf.png
Iron Oxide (Fe2O3) is the same thing as rust. In the mines it comes in a form called limonite and hematite which ranges from yellow to red in color. I know this because it was one of the minerals in my Dad’s Big Chief Mine west of Lordsburg, NM. He used it for paint designs on pottery he and Mom would make. When fired it may turn black or red depending upon the method of firing. They used the Indian method of open firing with wood piled around the pottery.
It is also the red substance used in cave paintings and probably the only substance in slurry that is not damaging to the environment unless you do not like the landscape having red stripes in it after the fire.
Those mines are abandoned now but you likely can still find the hematite and limonite scattered about. Right on the freeway 7 miles west of Lordsburg on the south side of the highway at the Gary overpass. To the North is a predominant rock mountain that I climbed often as a kid–that mountain had significance to the early Indian tribes that also climbed it–I had found some tools they had left behind on one of the finest made arrowheads I had ever seen along with tiny turquoise beads and ocean shell beads. That was 40 years ago–and now there would be much frowning upon picking up an arrowhead–maybe even jail time–something that Gary knows much about since he was in the business of arresting the looters of Indian artifacts. That these days extends to fossil bones of dinosaurs. But killing of hot shot crews might not be punishable.
correction–water being a third lighter than the slurry or 2/3 the weight of the heavier slurry. Transportation costs would be less for water since you can carry more of it for the same cost.
another correction–that was 60 years ago–my how time flies
Update on Joy, Honda, Rts.
They are now in Washington DC doing their presentations so we shall soon have the low down on what they had to say. I think is is $1000 a seat to hear this–might be chump change to those attending but for those it is not I hope you get some fine Irish triple distilled, Guinness or your choice of rot gut or wine with some decent vittles. You might need it –the booze or coffee to keep you alert. These DC meetings aren’t cheap so be sure to wear you polished clown shoes or boots to look to be in style.
This is serious business on the stern note so we do hope it helps to clarify the facts that have been hidden and lies that were perpetrated to cover up the real reasons the GMHS crew were sacrificed. The public needs to know–and I do hope RTS, Joy and Honda are able to direct the crowd in the right direction.
Inertia is hard to overcome with such a large sector of the wild land fire fighting community in accordance with the faulty investigation and desire to maintain the status quo.
Still I would be anxious to know the results of this Washington DC assault against the false presentation of how things happened causing the death of 19 GMHS.
Meantime I will be enjoying my Slum Gullion Stew–actually quite tasty with potatoe, carrot, onion, garlic, ginger, barley and a bit of rosemary, oregano and pig weed out of my garden. Salt and pepper added with a bit of olive oil–can’t beat it with a stick.
I will go hunting a rabbit named Dog Dinner later in the evening and gather cow chips for my garden while I muse about global warming. It is endangering the spotted owl and with the East in some of the hottest temperatures ever I wonder if wild fires will start migrating that direction.
Safety rules will increase in value as these fires increase in intensity and volume. Chicken Little hasn’t fallen out of the sky yet but it might be embers falling with him.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=msQPHxTUgzI
Phosphate deposits are known to be carriers of radioactive elements. Expect to find Radon and radioactivity associated with these type deposits. Thorium, Uranium, Radium and its gases Radon will be present.
This is why the EPA is so concerned about the Florida deposits of phosphates used in the slurry and fertilizers. It is strange they say little about the damage the phosphates themselves do–extreme damage to the environment that they have to know about, yet they say their clean up projects are due to the radioactive elements getting into fresh water sources.
They should be highly concerned over human health issues, hundreds of millions of fish dead with crabs, shrimp and certain grasses and mangrove areas killed out not to mention the ocean dead zones. There is lead in my brain but what the hell have they got in theirs.
There is nothing more honorable than the man digging those lines and doing his best to protect forests, property, people, wild life and environment. His work is arduous and his sacrifices to family and home life are what the warrior must endure. He generally does not think of the consequences to his health that will haunt him in his golden years. Yet he is rewarded with a pittance for his efforts.
While the politicos are clinking fine crystal and hob nobbling with the elite he is risking his life and doing his best to contain wild fires and defend their possessions.
There is an evil in this world–killing such men is one–denying the truth of why they are killed is an equal evil. To deny the truth means some more innocent young men and women will die. The fire gods have determined that their reputations and public image is worth more than the changes truth would bring to save future wild land fire fighter lives.
But that is not the only evil I see–when I see those brilliant orange and red slurry drops I see people becoming ill, I see oceans being ravished by dead zones, I see millions of dead fish on river banks and ocean beaches. I see the environment polluted and I smell the stench of death caused by this orange toxin. But the men doing the polluting see money, money and more money. The tax payer is a bottomless pit of money to them. There is money to be made–billions upon billions of this tax money for the taking. Who among them wants to spread water when water has no profit? Yet hundreds of ill people and millions of dead fish and other aquatic life with miles of ocean dead zones is their legacy. Is that not evil?
Update from Joy–RTS made the presentation so we will likely have the rest of the story? She says RTS reports that estimates ran from 2000 to 8000 in attendance and things went well. I assume he will be revealing the news of his presentation soon.
That’s a lot of people attending.
Death by Mass Murder: Some of those chemical people have to know, just as the cigarette companies know–they are agents of death and mass murder. The deaths of the 19 were foolish action and killed men quickly, but these chemicals work at a slow and painful progression unless you are the one in four that die from that first heart attack. If you survive it you will go though more painful operations, long and expensive medical experiences, and feel the slow process of your life breath being drained from you. If you have developed cancer with it there will be many painful operations to remove tumors and you will have that to deal with beside the lung issues and heart issues.
Joy and I thought we were doing a service to hike the many fire fighting people to the area so they could honor the GMHS crew and assess why they had met their demise–a learning situation for them and certainly us. We did not realize the damage we were doing to our own health and the resulting suffering we would endure. until we began to feel the effects. I might have attributed my heart attacks, my sudden loss of breath and the weakness I has begun to suffer to other reasons had I not started seeing the residents of Yarnell coming down with the same illnesses and dying like flies.
Yarnell is a small town so people know just about everyone else–you just can not miss the mass sickening and deaths of the people there. I am not at all happy at what has been done to the people there because some one is responsible for killing and sickening the people there. These chemical monguls are no less criminal than the cigarette companies that disperse and promote their life destroying products.
Joy is also down with the effects yet she is much younger in age. But her hikes through that toxic slurry residue was much more than my own–so it has taken a toll even on the younger people.
Damn you chemical dispersers and people in that toxin dispersing business. Certain you are profiteers but the killing of people you do has to be known by many of you and those that do not know the facts are slapping you in the face. You only need look at your terrible handiwork at Yarnell to understand. And you must know the phosphate story so known and played out in Florida of mass killing of aquatic life and the slow eroding away of our ocean life into miles of dead zones.
You have failed to paint the huge skull and cross bones on your Jumbo Jets. But they are there and your toxic deliveries are sure in their devastation to life and environment on this planet. You have become missionaries of death.
I posted last night in righteous anger–I am not a eastern religion that the guru sits by with a smile as the world”s evils consume people and the planet. I awoke, an email from Joy–not well at home with her folks hoping for recovery–there is no recovery from these toxins–they are insidious destroyers of life and the planet.
Here I paste a bit out of the NY times: “with the election of President Jair Bolsonaro, a populist who has been fined personally for violating environmental regulations, Brazil has changed course substantially, retreating from the efforts it once made to slow global warming by preserving the world’s largest rain forest.”
This man again is allowing the destruction of the Amazon–one of the planet’s greatest protectors of all life. Once forests are cleared then you can bet that the thing called global warming will set in to a degree it likely will be irreversible.
Bolsonaro and Trump I would put on my list as two felons bent on the profiteering motive of two cowboys turned bank robbers. Trumps supporting 17 nuclear plants in Saudi Arabia and his deciding that global warming is a joke has led him to allow all kinds of environmental polluting scams. How people can be duped is beyond my comprehension when the facts are right in their face. When I saw how Trump got elected by use of the British Company that was illegally taking Facebook information and targeting weak minded individuals with propaganda to twist their minds to vote for him, I saw I was right in not voting. However, even is Hillary is the liar I believe her to be, she may have been the better choice. I did not vote as a protest.
It is such that people need to wake up. We are hit with so much propaganda it is hard to discern fact from fiction without much reflection and study of the facts. Some of us do not have the time from just having to take care of our livilihoods and those certainly do not want to risk their job security–certainly a factor if you have the guts to buck the presentations touted by the fire gods. Yarnell has proven that many times over–the fire system is flawed and many there are that know it but few there are to tell it. You just do not dare to step on the toes of the man with the hammer ready to nail your livelihood to the toilet door.
Fortunately I have been a free spirit and a proud one–when things were not right I would tell them and have been known to walk from a job that at the time was badly needed. I believe my faith in the goodness of my mentors in the spirit world including above all good old Jesus have served me well. It is intolerable to allow these folk to continue their ways without our objections. No matter how small we may seem in our efforts, they do not go unnoticed and they are collective in effect just as the retardant is collective in a bad way, our efforts to do the right thing are collective in a good way. I believe whatever God you may serve–there are many versions of the one Master and those he rules–but the good is not gone unseen by your God. Some even see themselves as gods and this is fine with me–do your thing since even you will feel the good effects of doing the right thing.
I am not the judge in the end–except I know myself and must be true to myself. For me it is not to sit back and watch the crimes against humanity and the planet without protest.
WTKTT, and others concerned: I am working on the retardant issue with an Australian scientist that wants to know the exact name of retardants that were used at Yarnell. He also asked if chlorine or bromine were present and if they were halogenated. If you or anyone can answer any of these question, I would appreciate having them. You can post or reach me at sonny95@proton mail.com or 575-202-5928. Your reply or post will be appreciated.
It would be also interesting if someone would anonymously post what the secret ingredients might be- very good information that would give these scientific people some clues as to what these chemicals can do and the resulting chemicals formed once the retardant is applied to fire.
It would be like this: If such and such chemical were the secret ingredient then the reactions would produce such and such. We hope to get true posts, our intentions are clean and geared to finding facts, not fiction.
That should have been a He/She since more than one scientist is involved.
Because this information is vital to every wild land fire fighter, anything I learn will be immediately posted here. Perhaps we can learn things that the retardant providers do not know themselves or else do not wish the information publicized.
My own opinion is that a skull and cross bones belongs on this stuff and the planes and vehicles making the deliveries. But I do want some scientific input on the matter and I am certain the public and most of the fire fighting people would like to hear the scientific views.
My isn’t the internet grand when you can converse with people around the world in the matter of seconds.
I had posted an e mail but that site for chemical health information concerning Lead and other pollutants you would google Info Lead.
**
** GENERAL SECURITY UPDATE
After extensive analysis, there is NO hard evidence that the InvestigativeMEDIA Servers were ever compromised in any way last Wednesday night, or at any time.
Everything is functioning normally and the Servers remain fully protected.
WTKTT,
You posted this today: “GENERAL SECURITY UPDATE
“After extensive analysis, there is NO hard evidence that the InvestigativeMEDIA Servers were ever compromised in any way last Wednesday night, or at any time.
“Everything is functioning normally and the Servers remain fully protected.”
So here are my GENERAL SECURITY UPDATE questions:
(1) what ever happened to your “trust but verify” caveat?
And (2) how can there be “NO hard evidence that the InvestigativeMEDIA Servers were ever compromised in any way last Wednesday night, or at any time” when there were claims, by you, that posts had been altered / changed and then claims that these alleged “changes” were restored to the original posts?
I thought JD was the IM webmaster so then (3) are you the designated IM webmaster or the self-imposed messenger to notify what JD has passed on to you? Or what?
Obviously, there are several of us that have been unconcerned about the alleged hacking issue(s) and continued to post unabated.
Thank you for your update.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 22, 2019 at 3:28 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> (1) what ever happened to your “trust but verify” caveat?
It is alive and well. Thank you for asking.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> (2) how can there be “NO hard evidence that the InvestigativeMEDIA
>> Servers were ever compromised in any way last Wednesday night,
>> or at any time” when there were claims, by you, that posts had been
>> altered / changed and then claims that these alleged “changes” were
>> restored to the original posts?
Because sometimes, when weird things appear to be happening in any Client/Server environment, an ‘extensive analysis’ can reveal that the Server itself was never compromised.
As I told you above… that is now the case.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I thought JD was the IM webmaster
Your assumption is correct.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> (3) are you the designated IM webmaster?
No.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> or the self-imposed messenger to notify what JD has
>> passed on to you? Or what?
The “all clear” message posted above was approved before it appeared. It was also one of the final ( monitored ) ‘tests’ to make sure the Server(s) are functioning as they should.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Obviously, there are several of us that have been unconcerned about
>> the alleged hacking issue(s) and continued to post unabated.
And everyone should now CONTINUE to do that… and be unconcerned about posting here.
The “Fasten Seat Belt” sign is OFF.
Everyone is free to “roam about the cabin”.
But that being said… as one should ALWAYS do when posting messages to ANY public forum… just make sure that what is appearing there is what you intended. If it is not… be sure to contact the operator of the site immediately.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Thank you for your update.
You are most welcome.
It’s about time to bust a move here ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZQQGX24Teg ) and get past this … whatever it has been claimed to be … and without any proof whatsoever.
“Hold tight we’re in for nasty weather … Here’s your ticket, pack your bag … time for jumpin’ overboard … the transportation is here … close enough but not too far, maybe you know where you are. Fightin’ fire with fire …”
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBUe_v6Mi70 )
Touché
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ADSRBjlXSKc
Lone Survivor Of Yarnell Hill Fire Battles Addiction & Survivors Guilt
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICuxNW4DrM8 )
McDid-Not talks a lot about vague details of the events on June 30, 2103, without really saying anything.
So then, it should be about time to come forward and fill in the blanks on those details that you continue to hide in order to “protect My Brothers.”
I allege that you dishonor those fallen 19 GMHS, your “Brothers,” by refusing to speak the truth about what occurred that tragic day and why it occurred.
And you know the answer to both, so please stop hiding behind this fake shield and reveal the truth so that we can at least reduce any future WF and FF deaths
RTS posts and points out from the article for reasons concening fire fighter tragedies.
“It sure looks a lot like the outcome of the YH Fire IMT and the GMHS on June 30, 2013.”
1) Improper Risk Assessment
(2) Lack of Incident Command
(3) Lack of Accountability
(4) Inadequate Communications
(5) Lack of SOPs or failure to follow established June 30, 2013.
How is it that the GMHS crew and management violated every reason listed for fire fighter tragedy? GMHS have become the prime example of anti-safety crews. The lone survivor Donut continues to exemplify that fact. He would do well to say something on the order of, You know, we fucked up royally–I had no idea of any safe ways that wild fires should be approached and our bosses did not mention the need for safe ways to fight fires-or I would never have had to stammer when I was asked about safety rules. Because I had no idea there were such things I called them “hillbilly” and since I have learned that the hillbilly that advised us to not get trapped in the manzanita was a hell of a lot smarter than I was. Me and my crew had no clue but had that hillbilly been in charge of our crew we would be alive today.
I can not put words in that confused Donut’s mouth–but something close to what he ought to be saying. If he would start talking truth and admitting the facts of how ignorant of safe fire fighting he and his bosses were-and their willingness to foolishly risk lives–then he would be a great catalyst in saving future wild life lives. People would listen because he is the lone survivo if only he told the truth about how stupid his crew really was and how foolish Marsh acted to kill his men.
But I think the drugs and the peer group of superiors have kept him stupid as to the real value he could be to the fire fighting safety. But instead he chooses to play the victim and ride the sympathy horse for selfish purpose. Perhaps someday he will look beyond his own selfish agenda and look to the larger picture of safety of his fellows. Otherwise there will come a time when he will be exposed for what he is and his regrets will be even greater than they are now.
My own opinion, yet Donut is not the only fire fighter that needs to come clean in admission of unsafe methods of wild land fire fighting. There are also many managers that were involved in the Yarnell incident.
DND is just one of the heroes that have pointed out the need for honest reporting of actions that were taken yet hidden, redacted, lied about and omitted from official records and investigative reports. He is not the only person afraid for their job security because of management threats and concerns for fellow fire fighters job security. I can tell you that one Probation Officer that we met is now retired but at the time we met him he had information about the fire, yet was worried that even on that job he would be fired with only three years left to retirement pay. He did not want to loose that yet was angry because he had and likely still has a letter from government warning him to keep quiet about anything he might have heard while on the fire edge listening and watching the action of the wild land fire fighting. I believe he was listening to radio conversations about the time of the deaths.
So you see every method has been used to present the scenario that had been narrated from early on. All investigations were arranged to meet the desired narrative and any facts, testimony or information contradicting the desired public presentation were either redacted, omitted or denied with mum orders and threats in place to keep the true story from public view.
Now these are my own opinions but I dare say they are shared by a great number of men that have the long time wisdom of managing wild land fire crews in their favor. And they do not intend to be bullied or back down until the truth is out in full force.
Very well said Sonny. You would make a good Hot Shot would have made a good Hot Shot back in the day. Thank you for telling it like it is
Thanks RTS-I do know I could have taken the abuse you fellows handle to be a hot shot and had I not taken on mining since a child, might have gravitated toward that type work. But with what I have learned since neither mining nor wild land fire fighting are good choices for those that like a long life. Still we do things we love to do and if that means a shorter life some of us will sacrifice those years. In both mining and fire fighting, like the man on a battlefield, even that shorter life expectancy might be cancelled in a hurry.v The young GMHS crew gives us a sad heart thinking of their sudden demise.
And the young wild land fire fighter might be quite busy in the near future. Now that we are experiencing the mega fires and Trump has pulled out of world global warming agendas, temperatures might just increase and the warming issue keep the wild land fire fighter in plenty demand.
There was a time I did not put much stock in the idea of global warming–but evidence has changed that idea. Too much revelation by satellite showing the ice melting at both polar regions is giving evidence supporting it.
Back in the 60’s I attended Ambassador College in Pasadena, California. I can tell you after leaving the clean air of the New Mexican desert to go to that smog ridden place had me determine I would not return after a semester there. That air was so contaminated that it was similar to being in a dust storm only this stuff had me gasping for breath and feeling choked. Much was done since and last time I was through there, despite the traffic in 2001, you could at least breath better.
I suppose Trump thinks a little choking is good if profits are not hindered. But global warming is not and he has no clue. But the worse thing I see he has gone around congress to sell billions in modern weaponry to the Saudi Arabians. He also has plans to help them build 17 nuclear plants–they will then have access to building nuclear weapons. Did he forget that every one of the 19 that flew into the Twin Towers and Pentagon were Saudis? Oh but that oil that we ought to be weaning ourselves from is so important to the wealth and future of the Trump Empire.
This man certainly has a way of getting his way–the Trump Curtain is going in despite objections of Congress as well. I am not surprised, he has done a good job of propagating his desires and getting away with them.
To my way of thinking aiding the enemy is treason–and I certainly do not see the Saudis as friends–did you see the crowds of them cheering when the Twin Towers came down? The media can be our friends–and filming like that is when a picture is worth a thousand words.
So do not be surprised if your wild land fire fighting in the future turns worldly to even cleaning up nuclear fires and carrying Geiger counters (you might even get sent to Saudi Arabia).
My opinion since some are in love with Trump and his antics. Isn’t America Great that you can still express ideas freely–the press can still investigate and photograph freely–( except the Yarnell ordeal) and IM is still a free to opine operation.
His “Brothers” are not so happy with his avoidance of the truth best I can tell. He would do well to speak with some of the elder “brothers” in fire fighting to learn how he should speak without a forked tongue.
My opinion he would be the sad sack of wild land fire fighters and his inability to man up has too many of his “brothers” in askance of his performance. But he does speak to why all his “brothers” are dead and his actions and words have demonstrated that both on the job and now after the GMHS group deceased. If anything, the gods saved his ass to demonstrate the problems that led to the GMHS demise.
Oh…and one more thing. At the end of the day…does fire blow against the wind. Just
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rI2YTF2Qqrk
Whoops.
Oh…and one more thing. At the end of the day…does fire blow against the wind? Just ASKIN’?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rI2YTF2Qqrk
Could not handle watching the whole thing–Seems like he was on something to me–and if he is doped up you waste your time listening to his gobbledygook
He has plenty excuse to stay that way–at any rate, he has not been reliable except to follow the devil that leads him. Joy haunts him with asking him to come clean but if he did would you know whether he were telling the truth or stretching it to fit the Amanda/Willis story?.
Since you are posting songs “Wasted days and Wasted Nights”, Freddy Fender was OK There and might be a good theme song for Donut.
Consider the GMHS motto which was apparently taken from the North Carolina motto: “Esse Quam Videri —’To be, rather than to seem’” but given no credit or acknowledgement to the State of North Carolina.
This is from a pep talk that Air Force Colonel John Boyd gave to a junior officer when asked for career advice.
“Tiger, one day you will come to a fork in the road and you’re going to have to make a decision about which direction you want to go.”
“If you go that way you can be somebody . You will have to make compromises and you will have to turn your back on your friends. But you will be a member of the club and you will get promoted and you will get good assignments.”
“Or you can go that way and you can do something — something for your country and for your Air Force and for yourself. If you decide you want to do something, you may not get promoted and you may not get the good assignments and you certainly will not be a favorite of your superiors. But you won’t have to compromise yourself. You will be true to your friends and to yourself. And your work might make a difference.”
“To be somebody or to do something. In life there is often a roll call. That’s when you will have to make a decision. ~ Colonel John Boyd”
(bolded emphasis original – if I formatted it correctly)
( https://www.squawkpoint.com/2018/09/to-be-or-to-do/ )
Based on AF Colonel Boyd’s quote, it sure looks like the GMHS, under the Esse Quam Videri —“To be, rather than to seem” leadership, resulted in them compromising themselves. However, they were certainly NOT true to their friends and to themselves. And their June 30, 2013, wildland firefighting work? It most definitely made a difference.
It is and, hopefully, always will be, the worst wildland fire tragedy in wildland fire history – FOREVER. Then again, that hopefulness may NOT be the case.
Because most WFs and FFs are not allowed to “officially” discuss the tragic incident unless they dutifully follow the SAIT-SAIR where the SAIT found “NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL” (emphasis added) (Sept. 2013) page 4.
RTS –Good advice to the young man starting out in life–and most especially to those that were involved in the Yarnell incident. Being true to thyself has been around a long time and is the solid advice to anyone–But being true to thyself means also being true to your friends, co workers, God or gods and family. Any untruth or false pretense depletes the value of the person holding on to them. It degrades his integrity and self image. But those that continue in such state become jaded in conscience–something we have seen in some of those managers controlling and continuing the false presentation of events and reasons for the death of the 19 GMHS. They have no conscience toward the safety of future lives involved in fighting wild fires. They are jaded.
😎
I already sent this to Sonny a few days ago, but everybody who has a big dig hunting buddy should be “heads up!”
https://sports.yahoo.com/lsu-tigers-lineman-matt-branch-shot-by-dog-hunting-trip-lost-leg-020531672.html
Oh, and Fred…you have our attention, so…
Yes the dogs are not paying attention to safety rules –learning to shoot–well we need to start taking notice of our four legged friends and teach them better safety procedures around guns–like keep your paw out of the trigger guard unless pointed at a rabbit named Breakfast or Supper.
Sonny…
Have you heard there us a survey in Yarnell…about HOW people walk home from the bars… 🍸
The results are staggering…
Yarnell had another fire 2 days ago
…Bufords. Gunsmith shop…gone…
Prescott FD was on it…wonder if it was all the same crew from 2013…
Under investigation…comical
Wish they would start sharing…
Sad thing for Buford and Wendy–no insurance I understand and their life’s possessions all destroyed. Is there an arsonist loose in Yarnell? I knew Buford to be a careful man and neither he nor his wife were smokers–what happened and was it investigated? Both are elderly people and I hope red cross and the community steps in to help them. They had contributed a lot to the folks there with Buford the gunsmith and Wendy with her Yellow Sheet weekly publication of Yarnell and area events.
Joy for those Yarnellites a little staggering is in order. They have lost many a friend and even every third one of them is now DOA and more ill since the Yarnell Wild Fire of 2013. That flag is at half mast over 200 times now. So as the bell continues to toll, may a good Guinness or two fingers of Jamison help to relieve the sorrow of the town–a little staggering is well taken.
If you remember I was the one that said United should have provided some good bourbon and cigarettes to those that would want such to quell their sorrows after loss of homes and cherished valuables and mementos. Alcohol is a drug that can be of value for some–even cigarettes are appropriate at times. I could have smoked a few while lying under that truck while bleeding out from that shotgun wound–there is proper time for things that might not be proper otherwise.
Reply to Charlie post on July 21, 2019 at 1:00 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Could not handle watching the whole thing–Seems
>> like he was on something to me–and if he is doped
>> up you waste your time listening to his gobbledygook
>>
>> He has plenty excuse to stay that way–at any rate,
>> he has not been reliable except to follow the devil
>> that leads him. Joy haunts him with asking him to
>> come clean but if he did would you know whether
>> he were telling the truth or stretching it to fit the
>> Amanda/Willis story?.
Indeed… Brendan McDonough has no real credibility at this point.
Sad… but true.
Even if he did say he was ( as you said ) “coming clean”… it would be difficult to believe ANYTHING he says, at this point, unless it can be backed up with other evidence.
He’s told so many differing “stories” now about what happened that I’m not sure even he remembers which story he has told, when, to whom.
And even now… in this latest interview… he says that he tried to kill himself MULTIPLE times… instead of just the one now-famous story about him almost eating his gun on the side of the road one day?
First I’ve ever heard of THAT.
It’s starting to be a classic ‘fish’ story… where it just gets bigger every time Brendan “tells the story”.
I think the suicide stories might be true–I wonder is he carrying a load of guilt for not being truthful from the beginning and withholding information as well. I am not thinking it is survivors guilt although that could be part of it. He is a sad case to say the least, a tragedy and that boy needs plenty of mental health counseling especially if you add in his addiction problem. It is not a good thing to have him representing the wild fire community though.
Test: The quick grey fox jumped over the lazy brown dog.
Are you too having captcha errors?
Or testing your keys on your keyboard? Or a real test? What you wrote above contains all of the letters of the alphabet
The hackers are now traceable with new technology government agencies have. I suspect the FBI will want to know who it is since this would be someone involved with the fire industry or related to it and they would be tampering with evidence–and whoever hacks this type site can not be very sophisticated.
Good morning Sonny
Once I compare the PDFs I can then know more when I file a report of hacking…right now in travel mode.
I googled it…
https://www.google.com/search?q=can+you+legally+get+police+involved+on+an+online+forum+on+hacking+the+server&oq=can+you+legally+get+police+involved+on+an+online+forum+on+hacking+the+server&aqs=chrome..69i57.28961j0j7&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
If the authorities get involved might help protect some because its bad for some avatars..
Also I should call my ex CIA’s kid and see what he can help me with on helping to protect key people from a possible exposure and why…some areas being changed. I just wanted you to know Sonny I cannot focus to here…documenting the NE of the Cellar FIRE and making sure I specifically watch their Fire Behavior actions to the Bradshaws going towards Spruce Mountain ⛰ of Prescott between that fire and Spruce Mountain is a very large death bowl. I hope they calculated that as well as the relatively high RH factor…I alerted Forensic Weather to watch this yesterday. Sonny…the locals have seen the pounding of slurry drop…what can ya expect the tanker base is there…
Have a best weekend as you can…many will not post on IM until a source name had been announced publicly or at least privately to the avid posters here.
It is the right thing to do…look into it.
Who has time to go back and see if someone changed what you said…My cell does auto correct…And screws me up so don’t need a hackers help to change the YH Fire narratives to mert their needs or wants…
I did learn we do not have to be the server JD to have it formally investigated but hopefully JD does at least make a formal complaint.
Yes I had noted some sites remove my postings where Amanda and others of the same ilk are allowed to remain. When anyone challenges the accepted line of crap their site managers delete any opposing remarks. Here, John Daugherty allows the back and forth flow of ideas, opinion and facts to come forward so that the truth eventually emerges.
We have only been hindered by redactions, false information, and people reluctant to bring more information in due to threats to their livelihoods and the peer pressure involved. Despite that a few brave souls have come forward and enought that the dike holding back the truth now has a big crack in with a hole that the big thumbs are not able to restrain.
It is almost a comedy if it were not concerning the seriousness of the killing of 17 young souls. Maybe it is fitting that this event almost coincides with the fashion of men’s boots and shoes growing in length–I wonder how far they will grow until they become so long men begin to trip in them–well I am certain they already are. I call them clown shoes and boots–well maybe that should be termed semi-clown shoes. Part of the comedy life is but a play and we are all the actors as Shakespeare would say. It is how you act that matters. Be the good and honest actor so there is a good and honest reaction.
Yarnell–Slurry Town USA
And forgive me–I have the tendency as we all would to remember the 17 young souls and their leaders Marsh and Steed and their bosses, since in a general way firefighters are all heroes in our minds. You men/women take on jobs an ordinary citizen generally would not and also might not be physically capable of.
However, because it is easy to forget the citizen, I failed to mentioned the many lives the excessive slurry dumps made at Yarnell have affected and i would say infected. You would think more would be said about it when you can look up the street one way and see that your neighbor an that side is dead with his wife after the fire, but so is his neighbor dead and wife down with cancer and then looking to the left Y the house where the librarian has come down with open heart surgery some time after the fire–Is she still alive? Looking the other way just skip on house and that neighbor lady we talked to not long after the fire is dead–I did not know the other folks next her but across the street is a neighbor I had often visited and as young as he was in is 40’s now dead and his neighbor nearly across the street I sat in the senior eatery and is on the death bed or dead as is Anderson that we spent the week in the Gym in waiting to reenter Yarnell–I do not know since I moved out of that death trap of Yarnell since the slurry drops. The whole street devastated with death and disease after the slurry.
Joy does inform me now and again –so many I knew and no real rhyme or reason I can connect to these diseases and deaths and skewed death count to anything except the slurry pollution in the environment now surrounding Yarnell.
It is easy to think of the 19 dead GMHS but not much thought to the 200 Yarnell elderly that have died nor the many that have come down with sudden illness since Yarnell became slurry town.
And that is only a small list of those I knew, a few more Kevin Black, Kathy Walker, Penny, Dr. Anderson, some names I can not recollect such as the tall fellow in his 50’s always working the Senior thrift store, Barbara, the Bar owner where I celebrated my 7th marriage, shit and the sad list goes on up to 200, and Joy would be friends and personal acquaintance with every soul.
Most if not all these folks have contributed much to the younger generations and the wisdom of age is not to be taken lightly. These people have been either blatantly or unknowingly used as guinea pigs in an experiment either known or hidden that has proven without a reasonable doubt if I set on a Jury that the slurry compounds and chemical reagents they become upon entering the environment are the causes of illness and death at Yarnell, –my verdict would be guilty. With the death rate and illness beyond reason after the slurry drops surrounding Yarnell there could be no other conclusion.
Bad ingredients toward health with added secret chemicals.
file:///home/sonny/Pictures/Screenshot_2019-07-24_Fire_Retardant_DEIS_-_71615_FSPLT2_050375_pdf.png
Phos-Chek and its main ingredients the phosphate compounds—Here is a little information about the phosphates the FS and Chemical companies had polluted Yarnell with–that substance they have the wild land fire fighter believing is a safe thing–I noted the vascular calcification in my case–exactly why that i received 6 stents–2 at a heart attack event for vascular calcification–barely saved my life but the stents do open up the arteries so blood can get through, otherwise you are history. Some of other heart attacks did not get the stents and all these events took place not too many months after the fire. But i am only one example of the retardant effects on the human body. Yarnell has upwards of 200 dead now–heart attacks, lung issues, cancer and renal issues. Since the fire i too have developed renal problems. So forget the radiation that the Florida phosphates carry–worry more about the phosphate it self and god knows what other secret ingredients these rogues have added to the slurry.
A summary of phosphate problems related to human health–phosphorous is needed in the body but like drinking alcohol, or drugs there is a limit of tolerance that the body can take and an overdose or excessive use will entail major health issues, even death.
Common causes of phosphate toxicity in humans include impaired renal function, rhabdomyolysis and tumour lysis syndrome. In addition, exogenous phosphate toxicity is also documented in patients with Hirschsprung disease when exposed to hypertonic phosphate enemas [77]. Of relevance, phosphate toxicity induced by excessive exogenous phosphate administration can be fatal [66,67,78,79]. Although the lethal dose of phosphate in humans is unknown, Martin et al. [67] reported that the lethal dose of phosphate in pigs was 35 mmol/kg of body weight. As for mice, 14–16 mg/dl of phosphate serum level could cause 100 % mortality by 15 weeks of age [40]. Overall, human and animal studies have convincingly demonstrated the toxic effects of phosphate in accelerating various pathologies, ranging from vascular calcification to tumour formation and aging. Acute phosphate toxicity can provoke hypocalcaemia and associated symptoms including tetany, hypotension and tachycardia. Moderate phosphate toxicity that takes longer to develop can lead to the deposition of calcium phosphate crystals in various tissues, including often fatal cardiovascular calcification. An abnormal deposit of calcium phosphate crystals due to phosphate toxicity is usually an irreversible process. Although, without pre-existing renal or gastrointestinal diseases, acute phosphate toxicity is relatively rare, the deleterious effects of chronic ingestion of unrestricted amounts of phosphate in individuals is not clear, and needs to be studied in more depth. Particularly, the effects of chronic unrestricted ingestion of high phosphate-containing processed foods and soft drinks on functionality of various organ systems require careful analysis. Finally, maintaining the phosphate balance in the diet may be important for a healthy life and longevity, as phosphate imbalance can induce serious debilitating complications.
Now here is what EPA says about the high ammonium content of the slurry:
At very low concentrations ammonia has very little effect on the body except for some slight irritation to eyes, nose and throat. At high concentration ammonia is lethal. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has identified ammonia as one of 366 extremely hazardous substances along with arsenic, cyanide, and sulfuric acid.
I challenge these Chemical Giants to post their secret chemicals that they do not want known yet are allowed to pollute residential environments and wild land environments with them. Are they too chicken shit to let us know what they are doing to our health and environments?
Joy–If you get the audience of any Senator, Political representative or person of that type clout–do talk to them about seeing about changing the law where trade secrets can not be had when chemicals are involved in polluting residential and wild life environments without full knowledge of the residents as to the chemical compositions they will encounter. There are many health concerns involving the retardant slurry compositions and now that we see the actual effects of the known pollutants we also must also know the secret chemicals involved. Life and health must come before secrets and profits.
Our lands are and have been cosistently polluted over the decades that companies have been allowed to dump toxins in our environment. It his sickened hundreds of sickened multitudes and resulted in early deaths for too many.
It is well known the pollutants in slurry are contributors to the dead zones both in the Atlantic and Padific and that the phosphates have deadly effects on fish having already killed millions off the coast of Florida, in its rivers and other places in the United States. Little is said about the phosphate problem on human health except the radioactivity found in the Florida phosphate mines. Yet the effects are many and easily confirmed just by a cursory look at the many illness and deaths after the massive slurry drops that were made at Yarnell during the two wild fires of 2013 and the later Tenderfoot Fire.
This is a very real issue and concerns not only citizen health but also the wild land fire fighers health as well as the wild life and ocean environments that have suffered the toxic effects from the copious slurry drops.
Who was the Yo Yo that advised more retardant slurry should be used near residential areas–can he tell us the slurry effects on health and is he privy to the secret ingredients so he can report to us what the FS is soaking our environment with?
Ok, so a bit about fire fighter deaths.–of about 127 deaths after one year tally mentioned in one documentary I was reading–my hearing is down to where I use captions.–It was said that more than 50% of those were due to heart failure. I wondered if this were due to their exposure to retardants or if it were due to eating habits that the documentary was about.
I have to think it is due to the cumulative effects of both and those two things–retardant exposure and bad eating habits that cause excess cholesterol are taken together to make things worse. But I think a person with good eating habits and exposure over time will also suffer the heart attacks. Phosphates are known to cause calcification in the arteries and no matter the cholesterol level if you breathe in phosphates, over time the arteries will corrode and blockage will occur.
I am getting this information from just research.
I can tell you that most people do not know they have heart problems until they have a heart attack. And 25% die from that first heart attack. I did but was fortunate to be in a hospital parking lot when I did and with an immediate ambulance and CPR was able to be revived as they transported me across Prescott to the hospital that has heart surgeons and facilities.
The point is that firemen in the range of over 50% can expect to have a heart attack and one out of four will die from it on the very first attack.
To me that statistic is greatly skewed for fire fighters. The average is that 3% of Americans can expect heart attacks. That is a lot but nothing near that put out for fire fighters. You fellows are in one of the worse occupations for health anyone can be in.
If I knew this information to be true I would be quite hesitant taking on a job as a fire fighter. I like life and realize the chemicals involved in fire fighting are not friendly to health.
The documentary I was referring to is Forks over Knives on Net Flix and is not about fire fighters per se–it is a couple MD’s saying you ought to stay with a vegetarian diet as much as possible. Yet I did catch the bit about fire fighters since one of the Doctors had a son who became one–cholesterol levels were checked because of his sons lead. One guy was on the verge of a heart attack and they were changing diet to bring their levels down.
But with such high statistic I wonder over time will the chemicals override the good diet?
Yarnellites may be radioactive after the slurry dumps. I do not have a geiger counter but if you live in Yarnell and have one do check your radon and radioactivity to see if the area has an increased level. The Florida phosphate deposits are radioactive so the slurry dumped around Yarnell might just be from Florida. The sink hole that was 220 ft. deep in Florida caused the influx of radioactive phosphate wastes into their water table that residences use for drinking water source.
There have been numerous spills of waste form the phosphate plants in Florida causing havoc to the environment. The waste killed crabs, shrimp and fish and destroyed acres of mangroves and seagrass. No assessment of human health problems were made. EPA concerns are the radioactivity that will make the drinking waters toxic.
Sonny
Please call me at 11am today
I know its your fun day but I need to really talk to you and I dont have your number on me.
I really need to speak at 11am.
That Bradshaw area is one of the worse for thick manzanita. and miles of it-The dirt road in there is a death trap as well–narrow and no way to turn around for miles. I was always concerned in there for fires due to the way it is you could get caught and no way to escape.
To my way of thinking more criminal than the hackers are those dumping the slurry chemical toxins on our residential areas. I am certain they know that these chemical slurry toxins are having dire effects on the health of the elderly and causing the health problems and deaths such as has happened after the copious slurry applications on the environment at Yarnell after the 2013 and subsequent Tenderfoot wild fires.
We certainly do know the phosphate and ammonia content eventually winds up in our rivers and oceans creating the horrible dead zones so prolific along the California coast and Gulf Coast. Phosphate mining in Florida has allowed seepage and exposure to both ground waters and rivers. The photos of millions of dead fish along rivers and ocean beaches attest to how powerful a killer this toxin is. And it has its human health effects as well.
Yet the EPA says little of the effects of these chemicals upon human health and say they have spent hundreds of millions cleaning up the abandoned phosphate mines in Florida because of the radioactive thorium and uranium it contains. We know that those radioactive elements are time capsules bound to cause cancer yet nothing is said about the phosphates on human health and especially the elderly where the problems are often a rapid onset.
It is a terrible thing that miles and miles of ocean dead zones have been created–this has taken decades and has been a slow yet steady progression. The toxic red algae feeds on ammonium and phosphate solutions that is the runoff of rain and snow waters that have dissolved the phosphates and ammonium chemicals from both the retardant and farm fertilization. The two chemical applications contain almost the same formulae although the slurry has secret chemicals that the chemical and slurry companies want to keep secret.
These chemical giants already have a monopoly on their products and know that no one can challenge their Forest Service contracts. The only possible reason the information about the secrets as to what they are polluting the earth with is because they are afraid there would be an outrage from the public if they knew what they were. It is amaz;ing how dummed down the public has been and while enjoying the brilliant displays of orange drops of slurry and cheering the bravery of those men doing the slurry drops, little do they know these same pilots are happily contributing to the dead zones and polluting the environment in high degrees. Whether it is knowingly or not since most are highly educated individuals, they do receive large pay checks good enough to keep their handiwork going.
Yet the elderly, the wild land fire fighting grunt and other personnel subjected to the toxic slurry suffer terrible health problems –depending upon age either sooner or later.
Maybe over their cocktail party conversations they now will have something to laugh about–this old guy Sonny keeps telling people that our good works of fighting fires with retardant is destroying ocean, fish, and killing the elderly–Ha, ha, ha they will say. Maybe we will dump some on Sonny to shut him up.
Oh but they already have and it worked. But the Irish Gods and good old Jesus leading the hand of a few good doctors have brought him back to life after the toxins had killed him. Not all are so accepting to the lies fed them while the evidence of damage from slurry is so wide spread. Now we need to spread, not slurry but truth of what it does and the lengths the Chemical people will go to in order to maintain their money tree.
file:///home/sonny/Pictures/Screenshot_2019-07-24_Fire_Retardant_DEIS_-_71615_FSPLT2_050375_pdf.png
This is an obvious abomination to the environment.
GMHS Tribute Center whiteboard that is fabricated showing many more of their percentages than the original ones you posted below. For what purpose other than to gin up emotions is what comes to mind
https://images.app.goo.gl/ZMJnVoGfDDxLqzoi6
The site is being hacked.
Someone has managed to rewrite most of my recent posts, and continues
to post new messages using my “WantsToKnowTheTruth” handle.
Everybody check what your posts and see if they, too, are being “rewritten”.
More later.
WTKTT,
What was rewritten?
Bill,
I saved this chapter page before I left this week as a PDF and I had RTS save it before he left today so we will soon match up the 2 and find out.
Proper authorities have been alerted–hacking is a crime and investigated and prosecuted for the following actions:
Obtaining National Security Information
Unauthorized Access of a Protected Computer
Trespassing in Relation to Government Computers
Unauthorized Access with Intent to Defraud (which includes internet fraud and “phishing”)
Damaging a Computer or Computer Information
Trafficking in Computer Passwords with the Intent to Defraud
Threatening to Damage a Computer
In cases involving alleged violations of computer hacking laws, the government also prosecutes anyone who is attempting or conspiring to engage in any of this type of activity. The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act has a provision that specifically addresses attempt and conspiracy charges.
Wow
Sonny is on it.
I am focused elsewhere so thank you for doing that.
**
** NEW WILDFIRE NEAR YARNELL
ABC15 – Phoenix
Article Title: Lightning caused Cellar Fire spreads over 7,000 acres just 16 miles south of Prescott
Updated: 7:10 PM, Jul 17, 2019
https://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/prescott/cellar-fire-spreads-over-7-000-acres-just-16-miles-south-of-prescott
It’s actually 20 miles SOUTH of downtown Prescott, but only 15 miles EAST of downtown Yarnell.
Latitude: 34.243000
Longitude: -112.488000
Click the following link for a ‘Google Map’ showing that the fire is much closer to Yarnell than it is to Prescott.
Fire location is the ‘RED balloon’ that will appear on the following map…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B014'34.8%22N+112%C2%B029'16.8%22W/@34.3689489,-112.6349447,57540m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.243!4d-112.488
Followup ( The Cellar Wildire near Yarnell )
NWCG InciWeb page for this fire…
https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/6443/
A Type 3 IC is currently running the show, but Prescott National Forest PIO Debbie Maneely won’t say who that is.
SWCC Incident Management Team 1 ( IC = Alan Sinclair ) has been ordered up and is headed there.
Sinclair won’t actually take over the fire until 6:00 AM tomorrow ( Thursday ) morning.
There are 4 Hotshot Crews already assigned to the fire.
Watch out folks… you’re in the Arizona Kill Zone.
Looks to be another dangerous manzanita patch and lots of canyon traps. Killer fires in that area best keep an eye on novice fire fighting bosses and crews to see how they respect safety. Here is where some civilian media men would come in handy–a dangerous job but they could be in there like they do in any war zone checking on how these men are working–other bosses would learn but also be able to evaluate by the film whether a crew needs censoring or a good talking to about issues they might have in their performances. I know there are a few journalists (Michael Chan that the Prescott Fire Department saw as a pest) would love the opportunity and in my way of thinking it should be allowed in this free country where many of us served to preserve those freedoms.
But I had awakened at an odd dream that Wayne Niel had been advanced to be head of the safety concerns for all FS and Wild Land Fire fighting crews. Some have a gift in certain things and I think that dream is a Irish god thing–he has that gift and certainly at his age would be the man for the job.
But that is not the second thought. If Yarnell had lost 100 elderly in 6 yeats then that would only be about 3 times the normal death rate one should expect of 6 people per year in a 645 population count. But even that should give cause for federal agencies that deal with health issues should have a look. But a 5-6 times the expected death rate should have caused alarm bells to go off.
Still you are looking in on a multi-billion dollar industry involving some of the largest chemical companies in the world. They have some of the finest lobby people right up there where Joy, RTS and Honda are headed. Don’t be surprised if those three find themselves on fart seats–these guys will play dirty for their generous pay checks and use every angle to play the game of politics their way–but then I think that RTS, Joy and Honda are there not about the killer retardant but about the killer bosses that the wild land fire services have neglected to censor.
So there are certain diseases that are almost exclusive to the killing of the elderly–I mentioned Legionnaire. Yet it is not only deseases that kill the elderly, it is certain chemicals and drugs are chemicals prescribed to fight diseases. So if you are taking certain things or your doctors have prescribed drugs for you and you are elderly be sure to check the Beers list–a very long one but if your drug is on the list then talk to your doctor. And there are common drugs over the counter stuff that will sicken you–antihistamines an example.
Which brings me again to the deadly orange slurry that has decimated the guinea pig town of Yarnell and undoubtedly has badly affected the health of so many wild land fire fighers.
Some of those chemicals involved have cumulative effects. For instance ammonia erodes lung tissue over time. Yes I have been shot though one lung with a twelve guage, yet I function still well enough to feed my dogs and do the four S’s in the morning–yet I am not hiking those dogs as I would ordinarily before the slurry exposure I had there at Yarnell. Fortunately they have a fenced 3 and a half acre run and at times do have the full desert behind me–and believe me those big husky dogs love that run,.
But just before the blasting out of that one lung, I was in the hospital having a catheter run to my heart because I was out of breath and in chest pain and doctors though I was likely about to have another heart attack. I am not one to visit a doctor and not one to trust in many of them though I know they have saved my life –well even brought me back from dead at least twice since the Yarnell Fire.
What I am getting at is at least I know about death–been there and done that–but I still like life–the other isn’t bad once you are there and in one instance I was not pleased coming back–the black out was fine, but in the other it was not a pleasant experience getting there and I thought i must have other things to do upon returning to this planet.
The fact is that those of us in the senior category are being compromised if we are exposed to the orange slurry anywhere near us. We do not know the hidden chemicals we have been exposed to but some of us know that certain chemical combinations are deadly–for instance mixing Clorox and ammonia creates deadly gases including chlorine, chloramine and hydrazine that attack the mucous membranes and lungs so that if you got a good dose of it then you best rush to a hospital for EMT.
We are not all uneducated dummies that can not determine whether something is good for our health or not. We know the chemical reactions caused by applying the slurry to a burning fire produce new chemicals and some are highly dangerous to health even in small amounts. Why one thing I hope Joy, RTS and Honda bring up to their elite audience is the fact people have been doused with hidden chemicals and we want to know what they are.
I want to watch these men that spread these chemicals have their resident yards turned orange by this crap that say it is so great and inert. Well I do not–they have innocent children for the most part. But I would like them to include a daily exposure of the gases from the heated slurry over a long period of time so we could know their effects on health. We know at Yarnell the short 6 year term effects–death and cancer, heart disease, lung issues of breathing, etc. The CEO and those immediately under him with some younger bosses for the longer term effects. Of course this would be all voluntarily done under scientific scrutiny. Do you think we will get volunteers if you mention Yarnell?
That should have been Michael Chow–a brave young soul that was going to great lengths to get news out–was one to risk hiking in to the Doce Fire to get information. Something I think every game newsman should be allowed since they are our information gatherers–even in war time fire fights yous see them and their camera’s.
Supposedly most of the Yarnellietes did not want them there and when Michael hung a camera atop my station wagon I was going to photograph the town for him. He was risking a $10,000 camera tied atop my stationwagon. But Dwitght came and was about to arrest me so he removed it yet I believe his and my first amendment right was violated. Authorities are subject to the laws same as citizens, unless Martial Law was in effect, I don’t think it was but may as well have been since Yarnell was made into a prison for several months.
I saw the showing of the destruction of Yarnell a good thing–the world needed to know how devestated the town really was, but in hindsight I am now certain that the fire fighting community did not want the world to see their handiwork at Yarnell. They wanted it buffered down as much as possible so that there was time for the redactions, video removals, priming of people and threats as to what can be said or could not and the general means at hand to paint the public a picture they had already concocted by the time we had spent a week in the gym at Prescott and were allowed to return to our residences.
There was absolutely no reason to have guards posted and close Hwy. 89 to traffic yet it was done under the pretense that looters might enter and loot homes. The mains street was totally intact with none of the business burned and the east side all was intact and unburned. About a block back of downtown to the west side was unharmed and even more on Shrine Road.
There were many people in Congress and Wickenburg as well as even Phoenix that were having to make daily runs to Prescott. For instance one was Joy’s husband John and others in his cookie cutter neighborhood that had work at the Ruger factory and other places in the Prescott area. It is a 45 mile run from Congress AZ to Prescott ordinarily. But now they were diverted for over a month to a 22 mile bumpy dirt road and another windy narrow road back to their main route. It cost them an extra hour plus each day of hard driving and dusty road so that the Fema boys could play cop.
A lot of this is because the tax payer is unaware that there is federal tax dollars wasted in that needless way and at Yarnell it put an extra burden on people already striving to keep above water.
The public is so unaware and this is why citizens need to be informed properly. The fact that so many redactions, removal of videos and threats to employees and others can be proven is a disgrace to the system and a great disrespect to the citizens footing the tax bill. Public needs to know what is taking place so that the system starts to orient itself toward safety, efficiency and honesty.
After Yarnell we can see that there is a great need for transparency–wild land fire fighting is a public service that has no reason to be a secret operation. Omission can be as much a crime as commission. Withholding vital information from a death scene and its true cause is a crime and out to be prosecuted as one.
Everyone knows Joy, RTS and Honda are going to Washington DC to present to some important people. I do not even know who they might be. But the fact that a men of the standing that RTS and Honda have in the fire fighting community are so concerned with the Yarnell incident and how it has been covered up as to the true events that led up to the deaths of 19 GMHS wild land fire fighters tells us there is serious errors hidden from the public eye.
I know RTS has beyond 25 years of wild land fire fighting and Honda has credentials similar. You add in the experience of Gary, Norb, Woodsman, Powers, DND, Dr. Ted Putnam and just a few others not happy with the investigation at Yarnell, then you are seeing over two hundred years of fire fighting experience and wild land fire fighting experts of the highest intelligence and wisdom in the fire fighting industry protesting the lies perpertrated at Yarnell to cover up facts and keep certain reputations intact.
We can only applaud these men and others such as John Daugherty, WTKTT, and Joy for their additional wisdom and services they have so long given over the past six years. To them the lives of future wild land fire fighters are valuable and the truth and change where needed is the only way to insure better safety to the young wild land fire fighter. They do not want to see another Yarnell repeat.
Joy–you are welcome to copy the foregoing statement as to my opinions as a citizen if you thought it might be of value in your presentatiion–add my full name including my nick name. Maybe call it my John Hancock.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 17, 2019 at 1:04 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> “They put one foot in front of the other for 40 minutes… put themselves in a
>> horrible situation… and then they died.”
>>
>> The WFSTAR images dealing with Escape Routes titled: “Blow-up to
>> Burnover” reveals 52 MINUTES
>>
>> ( https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/escape-routes1 )
>>
>> that they diddled around “discussing our options” of whether to stay in the Safety
>> Zone or head down through a series of potential death traps to Yarnell at the worst
>> possible intersection of adverse fire weather resulting in exponentially increasing
>> fire behavior through dense and decadent unburned chaparral into a Death Bowl
>> on what’s been recently (and accurately) referred to as “Marsh’s death march.”
>>
>> ( http://studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell/ )
>>
>> And in spite of what the WFLLC continues to spew, NONE of this is “hindsight bias”
Regarding the 52 minutes…
That reminds of a question I’ve been meaning to ask you for some time.
It is still not known exactly WHEN they all got lined-up and then STARTED to put “one foot in front of the other” and set out on “Marsh’s death march”.
The SAIT put the departure time at 4:04 PM… but they were always just basing that assumption on the 4:04 PM timestamp for Wade Parker’s final text ( with image ) to his mother.
We have long since proved that while the Network Timestamp of 4:04 for that text message being TRANSMITTED from Wade’s smartphone appears to be accurate… the PHOTO itself that he attached to the text message was certainly NOT taken at 4:04 PM.
It was taken much earlier, around 3:54 PM, when Wade was still just ‘settling in’ to that safe-black rest-spot along with all the other GM Hotshots.
The LAST KNOWN photo taken by ANY Hotshot up there was this Christopher Mackenzie IMG_2738.JPG iPhone 4s image that has been under re-discussion just today.
It was taken ( by Christopher ) at exactly 3:55:31 PM.
And then that was it.
ALL photo-taking abruptly STOPPED… like that might have been the moment Jesse Steed shouted out “All right, ladies, Gaggle UP” or whatever he would say when it was time to “get on it” and “line up” for a move-out.
So here is my question for YOU.
After 26 years of telling Hotshots to “Gaggle Up” and get assembled and move-out, I would think you would have as good a ‘feel’ for this question as anyone in the business.
The moment Jesse said “Gaggle Up” ( or whatever )… what would be YOUR estimate as to how many MINUTES it might have taken for them to actually DO that, given the fact that they were all “fully parked” and fully “at rest” there in the black?
Keep in mind that we can see for ourselves in the Mackenzie photos and videos that even at 3:55:31 PM… these men seemed to be under the assumption that they weren’t going anywhere… and were in full “smoke ’em if you got ’em” mode. They were taking their chaps off and stowing them, putting their gloves up, rearranging their packs, playing tourist and taking fire photos, sending text messages… yada, yada, yada.
And they were also still about 110 yards away from the two-track.
So based on them ( obviously ) being in this full sit-down, full ‘resting’ profile… how long do you think it would have taken from the moment Jesse informed these 17 ( SEVENTEEN ) other men they were now going to be ‘moving out’… to when they could have all gotten up, gotten ready, walked the 110 yards to the two-track, lined-up… and only THEN started putting “one foot in front of the other” heading south?
5 minutes?
8 minutes?
10 minutes?
More?
WTKTT,
You got it … from “moving” to all that you mentioned above within five to ten minutes. MAX
They were there for a long period of time watching this fire escalate, wondering, worrying, etc.
They had already made what’s referred to in human factors research as a “public decision” to stay put on the ridge in the black when OPS Musser or Able called them to go to Yarnell to assist with evacuations.
The Challenger Launch Decision author Diane Vaughan (1996) defined a “public decision” as “A factor that binds people to their actions is ‘going public’ when someone participates in and is identified publicly with a decision, that person will resolve inconsistencies to produce attitudes consistent with that choice.”
However, all during that time the GMHS had been having their own – what I call – ” Micro Public Decisions ” on their discreet GMHS Crew Net channel of their “discussing our options” conversations.
Now consider this. Given the insdious and powerful Groupthink grip on these young men, along with the following, not nessessarily in this order:
(1) the insistent pressure from DIVS A, refusing to relinquish control of the Crew, and
(2) their strong allegiance to each other – as a Crew, and
(3) the known PFD policy of structures first and FF safety as “a last resort,” and
(4) no FF is satisfied sitting in the black watching structures burn while doing nothing, and
(5) the Military/com interview of PFD Willis that: “… Every [GMHS] knew that they were gonna protect … Yarnell. And if they laid down their life, it’s just like the Marines, they knew what they had to do and there couldn’t be any more honorable way to die than the way they died,” and
(6) likely the “Hillbilly” attitude toward the Ten Standard Fire Orders, and
(7) under stress, “Tunneling” or “Fixation” – locking on to one explanation of your world.
In total, the above causal factors overpowered their intial “Public Decision” to OPS Musser and / or Able to remain on the ridge and in the black after telling them that they were ‘committed to the black, send Blue Ridge instead.’
Recall the Why Sysytems Fail post above, particularly No 3:
“Catastrophe requires multiple failures – single point failures are not enough.. The array of defenses works. System operations are generally successful. Overt catastrophic failure occurs when small, apparently innocuous failures join to create opportunity for a systemic accident. Each of these small failures is necessary to cause catastrophe but only the combination is sufficient to permit failure. Put another way, there are many more failure opportunities than overt system accidents. Most initial failure trajectories are blocked by designed system safety components. Trajectories that reach the operational level are mostly blocked, usually by practitioners.”
( https://web.mit.edu/2.75/resources/random/How%20Complex%20Systems%20Fail.pdf )
All these powerful, yet subtle factors (‘multiple failures’), in my professional opinion, resulted in the GMHS charging off the hill into the hinges of hell. No one forced them to leave the black.
RTS–those would all be more or less excuses for breaking all the rules of safety–no damn structure or the whole cluster of structures was worth the lives killed by the risking of lives of your crew because you are a hybrid crew and think that since you did come from protecting structures it is now time to leave your wild land fire fighting job to do that. Looking at even their last photos–they knew what they were going to flank and possibly have to outrun.
Musser and Able have some responsibilty here. I know that the ultimate decision was left to Marsh, then Steed. But it points to how ignorant of fire fighting Musser and Able would be to even hint would they come down–Musser and Able had to be in sight of the action and from the Cafe where most were watching you could see easily the position of the men and the wild fire they would be trying to out run. Musser and Able if they contacted Marsh should have been screaming keep your crew in the black whatever you do. To ask your comfort zone even would be showing a bosses lack of knowledge of wild land fire fighitng and those men had to know as well that they would be asking a crew to be breaking safety by all counts.
Telling or even asking men to drop off in a box canyon choke full of dehydrated manzanita while flanking a fire that even an army could not hold speaks enough of h their lack of understanding to fight wild fires. Please do not have men with that lack of understanding managing fires. I much rather have Rick McKensie, the cowboy rancher in charge–he told them you damn well better stay out of that manzanita if that fire gets there.
Something else–that fire was totally out of control–one of the hottest likely classed a mega fire–explain to me how a small crew with pulaski’s and not even a water hose or engine are going to hold back such fire and do any good at all protecting structures? Maybe the hybrid idea is a bad one–if GMHS is any example the system might do better to have wild land fire crews specialize in that alone–they know that waving a pulaski at a mega fire or using a 5 gallon sqirt can is like a mouse trying to screw an elephant.
Add to that estimate the fact they were a bushed team of Hot Shotters and the temperature was in the worst part of the day-3-5pm are bad times to be in the sun temp. in the 100F range.
There’s no doubt they must have been exhausted. They were tired when they got there that morning and it had been one of the hottest days in Arizona history… all day long. None of them were ready to ‘charge’ anywhere.
So that final ‘Gaggle Up’ of their lives was probably more on the ‘slower’ side as they all just trudged to the two-track to ‘lineup’ before moving out.
There is still no indication that even when they finally got moving that they were in any kind of hurry. They basically just ‘trudged’ along the two-track just making it down to the saddle.
They certainly were NOT in any kind of ‘double-time’ or ‘at the quick step’ pace.
They SHOULD have been.
Minutes counted, at that point… and they SHOULD have realized that.
Sorry to disagree WTKTT, they should not have been doing double time. They should not have been moving at all.
But I know you are just making a point.
WTKTT,
I’m agreeing with Bill that the GMHS should have been staying put, safely in the black while watching and warning McDid-Not instead of relying on him to establish his own “trigger point.”
All because the GMHS had the best overall view of the fire, save Air Attack. And meanwhile, calling the BRHS to scoop the moron, because the increasing fire behavior was going to escalate his “trigger point” – as well as watching the show instead of “discussing our options” about leaving.
Not quick-stepping or double-timing
Mr. Hillbilly, McDo-Not talked in his interview(s) about using the small clearing at the Old Grader site as a “Deployment Zone” instead of hiking the 600 yards up into the black, below the GMHS, a true Safety Zone.
Photos after-the-fact revealed that the fire burned through that area very intensely and McDo-Not likely would have been burned even with his fire shelter.
It was hot enough to burn the tires off that grader as I remember and looking at the plate steel I do remember it having turned a blue color after the fire so that plate got as hot as if a torch had heated it. There were some old tin cans with lead seas melted out as well that I had Joy photograph–no way he could have survived there and one has to wonder about the structure fireman–how little they really know but need to know to prepare themselves to be survivors at such a job as wild land fire fighting. It is certain Marsh did not know and proved it with an exclamation mark. And I would suppose everyone in the crew were convinced he was the man watching out for their best interests. After our visit with him on the mountain and I were a new and young wanna bee fire fighter, I might have trusted in him as well–
Reply to Bill post July 17, 2019 at 6:39 pm
>> Bill said…
>>
>> Sorry to disagree WTKTT, they should not have been
>> doing double time. They should not have been moving
>> at all. But I know you are just making a point.
No apology necessary. Of COURSE you ( and RTS ) are right.
The only very ‘remote’ point I was trying to make is that once they ‘gave in’ to Marsh’s demands to move… then it would have behooved them to be “at the quick step”.
But even though they DID decide to leave… they did NOT ( as far as is currently known ) move at anything other than their normal hiking pace ( if not even slower because of how exhausted they might have been ).
That decision ( alone ) was a terrible mistake.
Speaking of ‘normal walking pace’…
In their recently published PODCASTS, Deborah Pfingston and former Granite Mountain Hotshot Doug Harwood talked about one of the days they ‘hiked’ all the way up to that ‘final rest spot’ on their own.
Harwood said he then specifically decided to do his own ‘walk test’ from that last known rest-spot down to the ‘Saddle’ location where Sonny Gilligan found that burned-up ball of pink flagging tape.
The spot known in the reports as the “Descent Point”, and the first ‘leg’ of their final journey that day.
Harwood doesn’t make it clear if he just started his ‘test’ from the two-track itself… or whether he added the extra distance from the two-track out to where they had actually been ‘resting’, as seen in Mackenzie’s photographs. That was about 100 yards oof the two-track itself.
Either way… Harwood said the “test walk” that HE did out there ( at what he says would have been normal Hotshot hiking pace… and he would certainly know what that is ) took HIM about 16 minutes.
Well… that appears to match exactly the same “test walk” that the SAIT investigators did, at some point.
The SAIT have them LEAVING the safe-black at 4:04 PM and ARRIVING at the “Descent Point” right around 4:20 PM.
Exact same results as Doug Harwood’s “test”.
However… it appears that neither the SAIT nor Harwood really made any attempt to ‘factor in’ what RTS and I were discussing above.
The actual TIME it may have taken from the “Gaggle Up” order to all the men finally fully assembled over on the two-track, in the right order ( Sawyers + Swampers + everyone else in their usual spot ) and “ready to go”.
RTS, in his long experience, is putting that at 5 minutes on the minimum side and 10 minutes on the maximum.
They were so tired, at that point, I believe it would have been more towards the maximum time versus the minimum time.
That leaves another ( let’s say ) 8 minutes that has to get ‘wedged’ into this exact time scenario.
And as we all know… 8 minutes REALLY mattered that day.
The Hotshots all died only 640 yards from their destination.
“They were so tired, at that point, I believe it would have been more towards the maximum time versus the minimum time.”
They were certainly not tired from working that day. They were wasted when Sonny and Joy saw them when they hiked by them and she took their photo that morning.
A cursory perusal of their individual Maricopa County Medical Examiner Reports permits a reasonable inference of other than mere fatigue.
There is that.
Also…
On the morning they would all DIE ( but one )…. the Granite Mountain Hotshots assembled in the ‘ready room’ at Station 7 and… as they would usually do… wrote down their own ‘readiness state’ on some whiteboard there on the wall.
NOBODY ( except maybe Grant McKee and Brendan, who had been out sick and attending a funeral for a few days, and this was his first day back with the crew ) listed their ‘readiness state’ as anything stellar.
And that was BEFORE they even set out to put in a full day’s work on one the HOTTEST days in Arizona History.
From page 186 of former Hotshot Kyle Dickman’s book about the Yarnell Hill Fire
————————————————————-
Marsh had decided to sleep at the station. It was more convenient than making the hour-long round-trip home to the ranch. When the men started trickling in at around 5:00 AM, he was already up, drinking his fancy coffee. He’d brewed a cup from the Jetboild he carried in his line gear pack.
On the “Daily Physical Percentages” whiteboard, some of the guys had tried to estimate what they had in the tank.
Chris MacKenzie said he was at 77 percent.
Scott Norris said he was at 74 percent.
Eric Marsh said he was only at 68 percent.
Others turned it into a joke.
Andrew Ashcraft said he was “Stache-less”
Grant McKee said he was “10 squared”
Donut simple said “Hell Ya”.
————————————————————
My whole point about how ‘tired’ they might have been circa 3:50 PM is just to establish that if we still need to figure out how LONG it took them to ‘Gaggle Up’… my feeling is that it certainly was not setting any speed records that day.
That final “Gaggle Up” might have been REALLY slow… and certainly towards the higher 8-10 minute scale of how long it probably took.
I must say going down from the two track could have been fast since it is so steep and that is not true since if you are are already tired and in the heat you would be slowed even there. And likely the one noted head injury reported was from a fall Bruce Hanna fell and hurt himself pretty bad when we hiked those two investigators. It was a hard and dangerous climb down.
If you went straight down that drop off from the two track before the windy path to the dead man site, then you had best been a roller skater since the rocks under your feet in that steep of a decline became roller skates. I always was good at that since we had trekked so many steep mountains as a child following Dad in his prospect outings or else on the steep mountain sides hunting game for the breakfast table. Dad always liked a table and chairs in the out doors. He would take a timber and balance between the forks of trees or find some saw horse way to make an outdoors table. And he would manage some way to get a chair or two into camp but sometimes it was a log or a rock for a stool. Nothing like a few amenities in the outdoor situation. He even carried a transistor radio for night time news and a little country music.
So comparing that life to the Wild Land Fire Fighter–you fellows had it hard–no good camp meat and no chairs for your efforts, maybe not even a rock for a chair.
WTKTT points out their physical and mental condition reports–I would think they would tend to overstate their status. If I was seeing Marsh at 68% and as I observed him that day, then observed the men as we passed them, having to step aside in the trail as they passed, I can tell you they would have been honest to put down 25-38 percentage range. None I saw looked like anyone I would want to be working aside if I expected that man to carry his share of the work. That is unless we were both bushed and did not give a shit if the job got done or not.
I was curious how the percentages changed for public view since one can size a man’s demeanor and physical condition up pretty well with a visual. And if the managers fudged the numbers, that adds to their crafty measures to paint their narrative.
Please remember that this is the anniversary of the July 17, 1976 Battlement Creek Fire (CO BLM) and that Gary Olsen has railed against this fire Investigation, Investigation Report, and subsequent Staff Ride as a sham from the get go.
I recall scooping the Investigation Report out of the trash in the Kaibab NF Dispatch Office and eventually giving it to the newly founded Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center in 2002 or 2003.
And of course, this standard WLFLLC spew on all Remember This Day in History revelations: “This Day in History is a brief summary of a powerful learning opportunity and is not intended to second guess or be judgmental of decisions and actions. Put yourself in the following situation as if you do not know what the outcome will be. What are the conditions? What are you thinking? What are YOU doing?”
So then, it’s up to you to use it as “A POWERFUL LEARNING OPPORTUNITY … TO SECOND GUESS OR BE JUDGEMENTAL OF DECISIONS AND ACTIONS.”
( https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/battlement-creek-fire?fbclid=IwAR1aOWzW5VQFQub28k9cy_rSpTX8EDyolauXnFQOSGTbMfWNDfOb3DWkrog )
Also recall this Investigation or “Learning Review” Orwellian Doublespeak regarding “decisions and actions” meaning the same thing even though – in the real world – they are clearly two separate and distinct words with separate and distinct meanings.
And remember that these alleged “Investigators” and “Factual” Investigation Reports move about in the fictional world of the imaginary, illusory, or unrealistic.
“There were occasions in the Review where the difference between actions and decisions could not be separated, thus the term actions/decisions was used, as it could have been either one, or a combination of both.” (Saddleback Tree Fatality 2013)
“Actions and decisions are consequences, not causes. The goal is to understand why actions or decisions made sense to those involved at the time. [sensemaking] …”
( https://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/2013-06-10-luke-sheehy-saddleback-report.pdf )
This Orwellian Doublespeak is also covered in the Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) Guide Coordinated Response Protocol Learning Review
The originator of this new CraP Process and his “Evolving Role”:
“Tilburg University – The transformation of accident investigation Pupulidy, Ivan – Document version: Publisher’s PDF, also known as Version of record Publication date: 2015 – Link to publication – Citation for published version (APA): Pupulidy, I. (2015). The transformation of accident investigation: From finding cause to sensemaking S.l.: s.n.”
( https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53b78765e4b0949940758017/t/572794807da24f738c4cd315/1462212051417/Pupulidy+The+transformation+Accident+Investigation.pdf )
“Chapter 9: The Saddleback Case Study represents the first attempt to use the Learning Review process concerning a tree-‐strike fatality on the Modoc National Forest in northern California. This case study represents the first experimental application of a process that ultimately became the Learning Review. This was the first time that the learning needs of the organization and the field were addressed in separate products. It integrated the major concepts developed to this point, even before a guide had been created. It also represented an example of a shift from the previously accepted realist models based on causality and mechanical process to an approach designed to make information available, so that all levels of the organization could engage in their own sensemaking.”
Bringing this back around to the June 30, 2013, YH Fire – the SAIT found “NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL” (emphasis added) (Sept. 2013) page 4.
So then, how is it possible to do everything right and yet kill 19 Hot Shots in one fell swoop?
>> RTS said…
>>
>> So then, how is it possible to do everything right and yet kill
>> 19 Hot Shots in one fell swoop?
It’s not ( possible ).
Bad decisions were made. People died.
The message from “Management” seems to be that we ENDORSE those “bad decisions”… and we want field personnel to KEEP MAKING those same kinds of “bad decisions”… and whether you burn to death ( or not ) is… well… you know… just the “roll of the dice”.
Total horseshit.
Speaking of Management sending the message “please KEEP rolling the dice and hoping for the best”…
Here’s a revist of what USFS employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said about ‘gambling’… and his now-famous “99 time out of a hundred” bookmaking…
On July 16, 2014 at 5:51 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
No matter what new evidence comes to light… there will still remain the fact that no one was out there with a shotgun pointed at Jesse Steed and the GM crew saying “Move to town and try to be heroes or I’ll shoot you”.
They ( and they alone ) are the ones that put one foot in front of the other for upwards of 40 minutes and, at each step of the way, had the chance to even re-evaluate their decision and ‘do something else’ based on ‘current and expected fire behavior’.
They didn’t.
They put one foot in front of the other for 40 minutes… put themselves in a horrible situation… and then they died.
HOWEVER… when you still have a major USFS authority figure and the actual Co-Lead of the ‘investigation’ of this very incident ( Mike Dudley ) getting up in front of rooms full of firefighters and telling them…
“99 times out of hundred… a move like this would have been fine”.
…you’ve got a problem.
Message to Mike Dudley: Your employees only get to DIE once, Mike.
100 times out of 100 times… a ‘move like this’ under the same exact conditions is NOT FINE… and people who are still ALIVE and trying to ‘advise’ other firefighters need to STOP saying that.
On July 16, 2014 at 9:35 pm, mike Replied…
BINGO!!
Of all that WTKTT has written, this is as spot on as anything. Dudley may not have meant it that way, but someone might get the impression he was saying they were just unlucky. No they were not. They did something that had a maybe small, but definite chance of catastrophe, did not mitigate the risk adequately, and got caught. Even if they had made it, it still would have been a bad decision AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED AS SUCH AFTER THE FACT.
Clarification on the post above…
That ‘Reply’ to my original July, 2014 comment about SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s “99 times out of a hundred” public ‘gambling is good’ remark was certainly NOT from Mike Dudley himself.
The ‘mike’ that replied with “BINGO!!” is the long-time IM Yarnell Forum poster known only by that “mike” handle.
“They put one foot in front of the other for 40 minutes… put themselves in a horrible situation… and then they died.”
The WFSTAR images dealing with Escape Routes titled: “Blow-up to Burnover” reveals 52 MINUTES
( https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/escape-routes1 )
that they diddled around “discussing our options” of whether to stay in the Safety Zone or head down through a series of potential death traps to Yarnell at the worst possible intersection of adverse fire weather resulting in exponentially increasing fir behavior through dense and decadent unburned chaparral into a Death Bowl on what’s been recently (and accurately) referred to as “Marsh’s death march.”
( http://studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell/ )
And in spite of what the WFLLC continues to spew, NONE of this is “hindsight bias”
You have that right WTKTT. I will add that when a civilian hiker with no firefighting experience whatsoever was right at the point where the men dropped off and absolutely refused to drop off in a canyon he knew was a death trap then there was some very bad decisions on the part of the GMHS crew bosses.
I can tell you I was not happy leaving Joy and once at the top of that mountain knew I had to go back and get her despite her long time hiking knowledge of the area.
My decision has been backed by at by plenty of wild land fire fighter crew bosses Joy and I hiked and learned from after the fire. They said to a man that they would never take their crews down into that trap with that fire anywhere near—add the weather changes they had known about and you were absolutely sure it was against any sensible move.
I reviewed the photos and histories of the men earlier–all amazing people, some marines, college graduates and all around good kids–yet this is handled as if only an accident–the rascals that would not tell the true story that these good men deserve so others do not perish because no attention was paid to why the men died.
And someone says 99% they would have gotten out alive–that guy is blowing smoke–100% in that same situation or similar you will find the crew eventually killed.
Even some of the wives knew it was not what should have been done as taught by their husbands. So those are left with a question mark in their head.
You can bet FS Dudley would also say 99 TIMES OUT OF A HUNDRED THE SLURRY WOULDN’T KILL 200 YARNELLITES AND SICKEN A SLEW OF OTHERS just as he referred to the killing of the hotshots in such a non chelant manner.
What he should have said was if we do not reveal the truth and need for change then 99 times out of a hundred these type situations will continue to murder hot shot employees and civilians. Dudley is one to fight to keep the status quo and hail the Yarnell Management as just the normal way things go–no blame–no shame–no matter how badly managed, call it a well played game.
Dudley is a smooth one, as is Willis in creating a scenario to the management’s happiness in keeping face. They are clever in their methods to fool the masses.
And as Gary Olson has pointed out many times ( because he was THERE )…
He and his crew did NOT kill Tony Czak, Stephen Furey and Scott Nelson just because they did what they were ordered to do that day and lit that ‘burnout’ below them.
Tony Czak killed himself and Stephen Furey and Scott Nelson via his OWN bad decisions.
From what this Downhillndirect ( DND ) guy has been saying… it would seem that this ‘other person’ he keeps referring to could use a good sit down with Gary Olson.
If what DND is saying is true then Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill are far more similar than anyone fully realized… and this ‘other person’ needs to listen to Gary Olson and stop beating himself up.
As Gary would tell him…
HE did not kill Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and the GM Hotshots just by doing what he was told to do.
Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed killed themselves and the men who were entrusted to their care via their OWN bad decisions that day.
Spot on regarding the GMHS leadership failing in their primary leadership responsibilities.
And there are MANY fatal wildland fires that the YH Fire mirrors with the South Canyon Fire being a primary one as noted below.
As posted below: “Kelly Close, a Poudre, CO Fire Authority FF, … ‘Fire Behavior vs. Human Behavior: Why the Lessons from Cramer Matter’ for the Eighth International Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 26-28, 2005 Missoula, MT.
This was a most prescient and relevant excerpt in his paper: “If, as teachers of history will tell us, failing to learn the lessons of the past dooms us to reliving those lessons, then we must either impress indelibly into the minds of firefighters the lessons of the South Canyon Fire or we will again experience its tragic outcome.” (Gleason and Robinson, 1994)”
I did not know Gary visited the site. But if so then he knew that even if a burn was not started it was a terrible decision–only a novice would make such and error and in my opinion one totally unaware of nature and survival–and a complete idiot when considering he had others depending upon his decision.
Reply to Charlie post on July 17, 2019 at 3:48 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I did not know Gary visited the site.
Gary Olson was THERE, at the Battlement Creek Fire, the very DAY that Tony Czak killed himself and two of his crew with bad decision-making.
Gary’s crew were the ones who were told the light the backfire, earlier that day, down below where Czak and his men were working.
**
** ARIZONA STATE, COUNTY AND MUNICIPALITY ( CITY )
** RECORD RETENTION REQUIREMENTS
Just in case anyone ‘out there’ was wondering… the following official Arizona Secretary of State Document states the REQUIRED legal RETENTION PERIODS for various kinds of Arizona State, County and Municipal City RECORDS.
ARIZONA STATE LIBRARY, ARCHIVES AND PUBLIC RECORDS
A DIVISION OF THE ARIZONA SECRETARY OF STATE
Contact: Dr. Ted Hale, Director – Arizona State Archives and Records Management
Schedule Number: GS-1006
General Records Retention Requirements
https://apps.azlibrary.gov/records/general_rs/GS-1006.pdf
This official Arizona State document contains answers to questions like the following…
>> How long MUST an employee’s personnel file be ‘retained’ after they
>> either retire or have been terminated?
Record Series Number: 20704
Record Series Title: Employee Personnel Records, Official copy
Record Retention Requirement: 5 years
Record Series Number: 20706
Record Series Title: Employee Personnel Records, Contract Employees
Record Retention Requirement: 6 years
>> How long MUST any state, county or municipal ( city ) agency keep a
>> SUMMARY record of everyone who has ever worked for and/or been
>> paid to work for that agency? You know… like an ‘alumni’ list?
Record Series Number: 20709
Record Series Title: Employee Summary Records
Record Description:
Listing of current and former employees including name, dates of
employment and job titles used to answer job reference questions.
Record Retention Reqirement: 15 Years
>> How long MUST any state, county or municipal ( city ) agency keep
>> Workers’ Compensation Records for any Workplace Injury involving
>> ANYONE ever employed by that agency?
Record Series Number: 20766
Record Series Title: Workers’ Compensation Records
Record Retention Requirement: 75 years.
>> How long MUST any state, county or municpal ( City ) agency keep ALL records
>> related to any “Historical Wildfire”?
Record Series Number: 10393
Record Series Title: Wildfire Report Records – Historical
Record Retention Requirement: PERMANENT ( FOREVER )
etc… etc…
thank you, sir.
It is all handled and Happy Summer y’all.
I am off the PC for appx a month.
wtktt – this link matches one of the public Purdy 3:11pm Fire Behaviors Photos which if just some FFs could make it here we can lock in perfect location – are they willing yet? and are you again saying this is 2:48pm? Is that it – 7 hours back right? I can CTRL F…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_214845.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
the smoke seems it is right there at the drveway as one pic the brush shows then next it is covered by smoke –
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_215428.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_223254.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
this smoke seems closer to Sesame area out by old grader vs Helms…any thoughts anyone?
or could it be Holly Neill’s stob topic area?
also in this pic- is that one area in sky pixeled out – edited?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_224800.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Not likely. It was a very low-resolution camera and if you zoom down far enough on any of these images ( or zoom down far enough on the original contiguous video footage itself ) you start to see a lot of what is called ‘square blocking’. Vertical and Horizontal lines with no ‘blending’ of the adjacent/surrounding pixels.
I’m not saying it’s not possible
I’m just gonna say “not likely”.
Plus… the time is 22:48 ( 3:48 PM ).
The Granite Mountain Hotshots had just gone “tools up” and were now assembled in that ‘rest spot’ in the ‘safe black’… and Christopher Mackenzie had already started taking photos from that elevated position and looking back at Yarnell.
There was NO SMOKE anywhere ‘out there’ in the Sesame area at that time.
This is also the moment ( at 3:48 PM ) when Brian Frisby and Brendan McDonough has just arrived back at the GM Command vehicles at the top of the Sesame Clearing area.
Brendan McDonough took his own photos from that location at 3:49 PM.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on July 16, 2019 at 9:08 pm
Joy A. Collura said…
———————————————————————————–
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_223254.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
this smoke seems closer to Sesame area out by old grader vs Helms…any thoughts anyone?
———————————————————————————–
The TIME is 22:32 Zulu ( GMT )… or 3:32 PM Yarnell time.
The fire was still very far in the distance,, at that point and other photographs from around that time prove there was NO SMOKE emanating from anywhere in the Sesame Street area.
FBAN Byron Kimball had just finished giving his weather report over the TAC channel, Brendan was still on his lookout mound, and Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby had only just started heading out west with the BR UTV for that second face-to-face meeting that Marsh had just requested.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots were, at this same moment, still actively just working on cleaning up that dozer line from the Sesame Street area over to the Shrine Youth Camp.
The FIRE was ‘approaching’ Brendan’s position, but was still NORTH of the old-grader position.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on July 16, 2019 at 8:24 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> are you again saying this is 2:48pm? Is that it – 7 hours back right? I can CTRL F…
Yes. The Helms Front-Gate Security Camera video was timestamping things in standard Zulu ( Greenwhich Mean ) Time.
So
When the video footage says 21:xx:xx it’s actually 14:xx:xx ( 2:xx:xx PM )
When the video footage says 22:xx:xx it’s actually 15:xx:xx ( 3:xx:xx PM )
When the video footage says 23:xx:xx it’s actually 16:xx:xx ( 4:xx:xx PM )
yada… yada…
There is a blurb in the IMET team’s review document where they were wondering if even the times they thought they were sure might still be off because when they returned the equipment to Lee and DJ Helm and hooked it back up… it was suddenly 14 minutes off, or something.
I am not seeing that.
The TIMES ( as stamped in the videos and the filenames themselves ) appear to be accurate.
Wow–what i am looking at is a photo of the area of the Weavers to the NW. That fire is burning in an area to the left of the Helms where you can see that smoke coming out of the photo in the upper left hand corner. If these photos are at 3:11 then it was started some earlier. Let me describe the area to the left of the Helms and it would be SW of the ranch proper. There is a cattle pond which leads to the canyon feeding the pond. That narrow canyon was choke full of manzanita with a trail up it leading to the top of the weavers. The trail was an old bulldozer run that had probably in the 60’s been made as a fire break but when we hiked it, was well overgrown.
But the trail passes the cattle pond that is elevated some from the Helms. Then the Bulldozer trail continues toward the Helms–and that bulldozer tail was not overgrown and likely made in later years when the cattle pond was goughed out. In fact the day Joy and I hiked we dropped down that bulldozer path toward Helms but not so close as to disturb the residents. We could hear dogs that direction but off the Bulldozer trail and above Helms a couple hundred yards we skirted the pile of boulders that is an extention of the south ridge of the death canyon. So we headed directly NW and i was guiding toward the two track when Joy suddenly decided it would be too steep that way (the way the men came down) So her argument of a better way won out.
So if I am oriented right that would be the area of the smoke you see in that area and the smoke would be pointed more or less in the wind direction at that time. That could be the area that the stobs Holly Niel found–one thing Joy and I nor any other fire man we knew had hiked again in that area since it was a moon scape now and you were told to stay out of the area.; It was a horrible mess of manzanita and the only thing was we could go down toward the Helms easily on that bulldozer trail that would have connected to the helms–but once we veered to the left we were back in the choked manzanita areas .
So I do not know who forgot to redact that particular photo–but that is evidence of a huge fire at the time of the photo. One thing I missed seeing it until I had made a second visual of the photo collection.
So Holly knew a lot there since she told Joy she spent 11 days with the Helms–I do not know if she gave the location of stobs she reported or not–there were some where the area the men attempted to cut off. But yes, if they did a burn in that area it would protect Glen Isla and the smoke stack shows the wind direction would be right to do that. However once the wind changed it would absolutely cut off the GMHS crew attempting to reach the Helms. The other fire reversed and anything from the Shrine would have completely surrounded the men with no way out except the boulder field to the south as seen in the one photo of a flag pole and the boulder pile.
If this is the case then it had to be a decision based upon someone not knowing that those men were just one canyon over and any burn from that area would go SW and then about 100-200 yards in would then be spreading up the canyon directly blocking the men. They would not have been able to see it until it came around the boulder extention of that south ridge and then they would have seen the thing with blazes reaching out 100 ft and such–their distance would have been approximately the distance they deployed from the Helms or less. I suspect it was burning fairly slowly as the winds were not pushing it at first but when the cool winds from Prescott area changed things then it was a matter of minutes to save their lives–unfortunately they did not use their last minutes wisely. Their training to depend on blankets was a killer.
That should read in last paragraph go NW–later it did go SW once the cooled winds came from Prescott. At the rate it was going in the photo you wild land fire fighters might be able to judge whether fast or slow rate of motion–I would think a rather slow since the stack was not much bent. And slow is relative so I would say about like a man walking and fast at a run or better.
That is evidence if I am seeing it and time is right that yes there were other burns and ones that would indeed trap those men.
I made a gross error above since I was thinking the camera is facing Helms but instead it is likely facing away from helms–Well it is a good look at the photos, and does give an idea of the direction of the winds.
Repeat–error of direction on my part–However, there could have been a possible burn off that dozer trail and one reason for someone to hike the area to look for stobs–they might still be there. It is quite a steep drop from the cattle pond down that dozer trail but it would be a good place to investigate. Once down the hill on the dozer trail it again started being heavily overgrown once out of the rocky slope so line would be cut in there if a burn was to be made.
Which photo are you actually talking about?
Yet I am trying to get my mind around the fact that there even is smoke in the photo this early. That means there was a fire near enough to be in the photo and this is before the wind change–that Peeples Valley Fire should not have been close enough nor was the wind direction right to bring smoke back toward Yarnell at that time. That one does need some thought.
Reply to Charlie post on July 17, 2019 at 8:55 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Wow–what i am looking at is a photo of the area of
>> the Weavers to the NW. That fire is burning in an area
>> to the left of the Helms where you can see that smoke
>> coming out of the photo in the upper left hand corner.
>> If these photos are at 3:11 then it was started some earlier.
Not possible.
Please look at the following Christopher Mackenzie cellphone photo…
Folder: / Photos and Video / Christopher Mackenzie cell phone photos
The following is a direct link to Christopher Mackenzie’s cell phone phote with filename IMG_2738.JPG…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACBq97DC_WBHNu7MeMwj7TOa/Photos%20and%20Video/Christopher%20MacKenzie%20cell%20phone%20photos?dl=0&preview=IMG_2738.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
This would end up being the LAST photo that any of the GM Hotshots took from their ‘last rest spot’ location before embarking on their “death march”.
Christopher took this photo with his Network-Connected iPhone 4s, so the timestamp can be trusted.
It was taken at exactly 3:55:31 PM ( Halfway between 3:55 PM and 3:56 PM ).
Christopher was facing EAST and looking BACK towards the Shrine and Yarnell areas.
The Shrine / Youth Camp area is in about the center of the photo, off in the distance.
That is the north side of the box canyon there on the right side of the photograph, with Yarnell in the distance.
This 3:55:31 PM photograph shows the ENTIRE MIDDLE BOWL and the ENTIRE area that you describing above.
There is NO FIRE and NO SMOKE emanating from either the entire Shrine / Youth Camp area OR any area on Sesame Street or anywhere in or near the area you are describing above.
So if anything happened in any of those places… it HAD to have happened after 3:55 PM.
Dead men really can “tell tales”… and Christopher has ALWAYS been SHOWING us that there were NO MANUAL BURNOUTS in progress ANYWHERE ‘down there’ near the Youth Camp, Yarnell, the BSR or the box canyon prior to 3:55 PM.
SIDENOTE: Mackenzie’s IMG_2738 has always been proof that just before the GM Hotshots ‘gaggled up’ and headed for the BSR… there were NO MANUAL BURNOUTS in progress anywhere near Yarnell.
But let’s say, for a moment, that it is TRUE that WHILE GM was hiking south, some engines were coming off the fire by heading south on Sesame Street… and they WERE met by “some guy” who then just told them to “light up” the western edge of Sesame Street on their way out and “stop it just short of the Ranch”.
Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were supposed to be experienced Wildland Firefighters.
Even if no one was setting manual burnouts near Yarnell as they STARTED their risky journey towards the BSR… both of those men KNEW that all the other forces “down there” had long-since shifted to “structure protection” mode… and for them to not have done everything they could to make SURE no one STARTED any burnouts that might “cut off their escape route” is just the height of stupidity.
Again… they were BOTH supposed to be “experienced”.
As in “knowing what COULD happen”.
Even if they were not in contact with all of the ‘personnel’ near Yarnell… they should have KNOWN that those other FFs close to Yarnell would be trying to figure out if there was anything they could do to “save” some of the town… and that manual burnouts on the perimeter was one of the standard go-to options.
If they were going to attempt that risky move to the BSR… this was one of those times they ( Marsh and Steed ) should have made DAMN SURE everyone ( and I mean EVERYONE ) ‘down there’ knew EXACTLY what their plans where and EXACTLY what route they would be taking so that no one would do anything as stupid as lighting a fire that would end up cutting off their escape route.
Even if these burnouts all turn out to be true… they will still represent just more TOTAL FAIL on the part of Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed for not keeping the safety of their men uppermost in their minds and realizing that such a thing COULD easily happen unless they made extra-sure it did NOT.
This is the first image in the 13 photo series you provided with this:
“Christopher MacKenzie, a member of the Granite Mountain IHC, took these photos on June 30, 2013 with his cell phone. The Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office provided them to Randy Okon, member of the Accident Investigation Team.”
It is still possible that these are NOT ALL of the photos from GMHS Mackenzie’s camera found in his effects by his sister, turned over to their Father, who supposedly made copies, and then gave them to PFD Willis who then supposedly gave them to the SAIT.
In spite of all that, what TIMEFRAME do you place on these photos you provided here in the above Drop Box?
I’m guessing it’s between 3:51 (almost 3:52) and 3:55
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on July 17, 2019 at 11:54 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It is still possible that these are NOT ALL of
>> the photos from GMHS Mackenzie’s camera found
>> in his effects by his sister, turned over to
>> their Father, who supposedly made copies, and
>> then gave them to PFD Willis who then supposedly
>> gave them to the SAIT.
Yes… but the ‘story’ you are telling there relates to Mackenzies CANON Digitial Camera, and NOT his iPhone 4s Smartphone.
Mackenzie’s iPhone 4s actually DID enter the YCSO evidence chain, along with the other cellphones, and WAS analyzed by ACTIC ( Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center ). They are the ones who recovered Mackenzie’s Cellphone photos and delivered them back to YCSO.
It was Mackenzie’s CANON camera ( the on he took his VIDEOS with ) that ‘went missing’ from the deployment site, was never entered into the YCSO ‘Chain of Evidence’, and then just end up mysteriously being given back to Mackenzie’s father by some still-unknown Firefighter.
And yes… they ( whoever ‘they’ are ) would have succeeded in forever hiding those VIDEOS and the other Mackenzie CANON photos if Christopher’s father hadn’t had the good sense to make SURE that evidence got back to the SAIT ( via Willis ).
There has ALWAYS been some indication that we have never seen ALL of Christopher Mackenzie’s CANON photos, video… nor ALL of his iPhone 4s Smartphone photos, either.
The two 9 second VIDEO clips that DID see the light of day have always been ‘questionable’ as well.
As in… did Mackenzie really just shoot TWO 9 second video clips, exactly 39 seconds apart, or was any video/audio actually ‘cut out’ of one ( or both ) clips?
Mackenzie’s FIRST video clip with CANON filename MVI_0888.MOV was ( supposedly ) shot at exactly 3:53:15 PM and is ( supposedly ) exactly 9.24 seconds long.
Mackenzie’s SECOND video clip with CANON filename MVI_0891.MOV was ( supposedly ) shot at exactly 3:53:54 PM and is ( supposedly ) exactly 9.14 seconds long.
What has always been WEIRD about those TWO video clips is that they are almost the EXACT same duration.
There is only EXACTLY 1/10 of one second difference in the lengths.
That’s VERY STRANGE, and hard to believe happened ‘naturally’.
I actually tried to duplicate this manually shooting video with an iPhone 4s and even when I was TRYING to make 2 video clips that were within 1/10 second of the same length… it was impossible.
So yea… that’s always been really WEIRD and makes one wonder if the video clips released are really all there is to see/hear.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> In spite of all that, what TIMEFRAME do you place on these
>> photos you provided here in the above Drop Box?
>>
>> I’m guessing it’s between 3:51 (almost 3:52) and 3:55
Here are the EXACT ‘times’ for Christopher Mackenzie’s iPhone 4s Smartphone Photos sitting in the online evidence Dropbox…
Device: Network-Connected Apple iPhone 4s
Photos taken June 19, 2013 ( at the Doce Fire )…
IMG_2293 – 06/19/2013 – 2:07:41 PM
IMG_2702 – 06/19/2013 – 2:07:39 PM
IMG_2703 – 06/19/2013 – 2:07:41 PM
IMG_2792 – 06/19/2013 – 2:07:41 PM
Photos taken June 30, 2013 ( at the Yarnell Hill Fire )…
IMG_2256 – 06/30/2013 – 3:55:31 PM
IMG_2395 – 06/30/2013 – 3:55:20 PM
IMG_2733 – 06/30/2013 – 3:49:59 PM
IMG_2734 – 06/30/2013 – 3:50:06 PM
IMG_2735 – 06/30/2013 – 3:50:19 PM
IMG_2736 – 06/30/2013 – 3:51:58 PM
IMG_2737 – 06/30/2013 – 3:55:20 PM
IMG_2738 – 06/30/2013 – 3:55:31 PM
And no… you are not “seeing things” in the photo list above.
IMG_2256 and IMG_2395 at the top of the June 30 photo list are, in fact DUPLICATES of IMG_2738 and IMG_2737 at the bottom of the June 30 photo list.
They have the exact same time/date stamps, and they are exact copies of each other.
The only difference is the FILENAMES ( and sequence numbers ).
There has NEVER been any explanation for this…or the wildly different sequence numbers and FILENAMES for these identical images.
It could be proof that someone really WAS fucking around with the photos in this directory and just screwed up ‘renaming’ the ones that were to be released…. or something.
You know… like trying to make it look like the photos all followed the “2700” series… with nothing ‘missing’ in-between from “2733” through “2738”… when those might not have been the actual original iPhone filenames at all?
Kinda like Brendan McDounogh? He ha a God awful spot picked out with no escape as a lookout. In fact he thought it was a SZ initially. BF knew to go get him, why? He was paying attention. Losing a lookout because of Fire Behavior means you missed a ton of information prior. More later…
Even SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said publicly, on June 20, 2014, that if Brian Frisby had not picked Brendan up when he did… that Brendan would have definitely been the 20th fatality that day.
But as things actually shook out… Brian Frisby did not “know to go get Brendan”, nor did he set out on his UTV circa 3:28 PM to do that.
The only reason Frisby was there to “accidentally” see Brendan standing in the road by the old grader was because Frisby had agreed ( at 3:28 PM ) to schlep all the way back up to the anchor point for a second face-to-face meeting with Eric Marsh when Marsh requested him to do so.
Brendan has always been under the false impression that Frisby “came to get him”. That was never the case.
Just a few hours later, at 5:29 PM, Brian Frisby himself was recorded in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos explaining ( to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) that he had ( in Frisby’s own words ) “just happened to stumble upon the lookout”, and that was the only reason Brendan was not still “missing” along with the others.
Here is what he ( Brian Frisby ) was actually recorded saying… in Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00271 video…
—————————————————————————
+0:31 ( 1729:31 / 5:29:31 PM )
Brian Frisby – speaking to PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell:
…and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… in the green… ( ? that that’s the route )… and that lookout was down below… and I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… ( ? rest of ’em )… and I grabbed him… and then we got the rigs out.
—————————————————————————–
That photo is in the boulders that burned out above the grader–the photos don’t include the death canyon but have part of boulder pile on the end of the north ridge.
Looking at those photos you can see that Marsh or Steed was doing no favor to Donut down there by that grader. Had that fire changed direction at that time the photo was taken, Donut would have been killed certain–he had absolutely no escape route and running down that dirt road might have avoided his death by a few minutes–but it was even a rough and bouldery trek just to get down off that little knoll to the road–I know I was at his post and looking at his situation. You certainly did not want a boss who would leave you like that. Those fellows might have been good structure fighters but damn they lacked in how to fight wild fires and not put themselves in needless danger.
You can see by the photos that the wild fire had gone bad and Donut was in a position that was useless in the first place. The guys in the black there had a much better eye on the fire than Donut–he should have been with them in the black. If Frisby’s motor had conked out Donut was dead.
Certain now that I have absorbed thing you can expect a wild fire fighter crew to do, yes if Marsh was not informing every one that he was moving into the green then he absolutely was a killer.
It is then quite strange that the whole of the management were denying that they had any knowledge of his decision to go into the green or that there were any communications from Marsh in those 30 minutes they claimed.
So now that it comes out that there were communications and that was falsely reported by the investigators, etc. we have to understand why they would deny those communications.
Would it be because they had ordered him down and also had ordered burns or knew they were in progress? That might be why but likely there are other explanations for the false reports.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_223048.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
this footage if wtktt says it is 7 hours behind than this is 3:30 pm showing separate smoke columns not as people tell me they walked away from the YH Fire Staff Ride that IT WAS THE BIG BAD FIRE ON HARPER CANYON got away then the weather changed…
is this the spur road out by old grader – the left smoke column or ????
there is someone out there that has footage early so those people need to start speaking up
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_232147.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Please First Hand people share…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_234946.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Yeah… I firmly do not have faith that we the world saw all their footage of all the areas of the Helms-
And there I was posting about Arizona trespassing laws being a country boy and hiker–I should know but if you really want to be strictly legal talk to Joy–she will tell you the exact trespassing law–she had been accosted by people where she was crossing vacant land who believe just because they pay taxes on some piece of desert crap land they have the right to accost people crossing it even though they are in fact breaking the law doing so–unless they have properly posted the land themselves.
You would think they were protecting a gold mine the way some act. But a small mind might act big without some brains to back it up. So I will let Joy inform you of the hiking laws and how to keep yourself legal. Whew, even the government is acting with a small mind keeping people off lands unless they pay to cross a piece of desolate country that even an Arab might avoid– but to charge someone interested to trek it and then arrest you if you do not pay–sounds like legal robbery to me.
But then the law is the law and if they put up a law that you have to eat cow shit or pay a fine or jail, then many, maybe most, will obey rather than break the law. It is enough to smell it since it smells as bad as some of the laws in force.
This America has become the leading nation of the world of having prisoners and prisons–they and that are big business much like the slurry drops and petty shit has put too many in them. You can now be imprisoned for owing a debt–especially if it is to the state. So Bush was right when someone questioned about the constitutionality of a law he was going to want. He said who pays any attention to that?
This is related to fire fighting and hikers going to the site–my excuse for the diversion.
One thing I noticed in researching some cases where employees exposed crimes similar to what we saw at Yarnell was that juries really frown upon these crimes when they see that every method was made to hide them from the public. But then it could be hard to even find a jury since too many people in that area are either related to or have personal knowledge of the crimes.
And I am not cerain but since it is quite well known and now published about the withholding of evidence, that would disqualify a host of people. They wouldn’t allow me on the Jury for certain.
But I would be a good one to have because I don’t like feeding jails and prison businesses. There are better things for these types to do and most of them are well educated and generally what are called good citizens these days.
It might be enough for the shame they brought upon themselves and the firefighting community as a whole. I might like to see them admit to their wrongdoings and maybe be assigned to visit prisoners they may have had a hand in sending off for petty crimes like walking across federal land without a land pass–you know petty shit that puts people behind bars.
Do not think the idea of cow shit eating is far fetched. Doctors prescribe human dung pills to certain people.. And some guys young and healthy get 40buck a bag for their shit. Well I would not take a human shit pill but some do–say it is good for a bad intestine.
And when I was a kid there was a joke–the man that went to the doctor because of low intelligence. The doctor prescribed smart pills. When a rabbit shits it is a pill so the doctor had these in a prescription bottle. and getting his fancy fee and the prescription price he handed the bottle to the patient. The patient upon taking a pill remarked this tastes like rabbit shit. The doctor was pleased and answered see–you are already getting smart.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on July 16, 2019 at 9:46 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
———————————————————————————-
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_234946.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
———————————————————————————-
Yes. That has always been a pretty significant ‘still frame’ from the video.
Notice that the TIME is 4:49 PM.
According to the officially accepted ‘time of death’ for the GM Hotshots of 4:42 PM, that means they had been dead for 7 minutes… but the fire still hadn’t even reached the northern boundary of the Boulder Springs Ranch yet… and the ‘smoke drift’ ( a hundred or so feet above ground, anyway ) was still predominantly to the SOUTH EAST.
Remember that there are still two PHASES to the whole ‘manual burnout’ mystery.
Phase ONE is knowing if/when everythiing happened, including EXACT locations and the SCOPE of it all.
Phase TWO ( as author Kyle Dickman said in that very first book written about Yarnell ) is to determine whether it actually contributed to what eventually happened out in the box canyon.
Regardless of anything that might have been happening near town, the fact remains that the main fireline was still, at all times, racing across that ‘middle bowl’ and towards the mouth of the box canyon… and Air15 Helicopter footage has always indicated that ‘area ignition’ had already begun.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on July 16, 2019 at 9:42 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
—————————————————————————————————
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAGqbdJjaYLEzN1mU6HUpRKa/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos/20130630_shots_of_special_pertinent_items?dl=0&preview=Play_223048.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
this footage if wtktt says it is 7 hours behind than this is 3:30 pm showing separate smoke columns not as people tell me they walked away from the YH Fire Staff Ride that IT WAS THE BIG BAD FIRE ON HARPER CANYON got away then the weather changed…
is this the spur road out by old grader – the left smoke column or ????
there is someone out there that has footage early so those people need to start speaking up
——————————————————————————————–
My Reply:
As I’ve said many times… I am no FBAN or even a ‘smoke expert’… but it looks to me like there are NOT ‘two columns’ of smoke in that photograph. It just looks like ‘smoke drift’ there off in the distance.
The engine shown in that still-frame from the video footage is Sun City West Fire Department Brush Truck 103.
The time is 3:30 PM… so that means it was on its way over to the Shrine / Youth Camp area to participate in that newly-hatched project of SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ to tie the end of the now-finished dozer line into the ‘rock piles’ on the north side of the Shrine Youth Camp Area.
When Tyson Esquibel was told to do that ‘project’ by SPGS1 Cordes circa 3:15 PM, Esquibel called for Engines that had been ‘staged’ over at the BSR and Glen Ilah area to come north to the Youth Camp to assist with that ‘saw line’ project.
Sun City West Brush 103 was one of those engines that ‘moved’ at that time.
It would be seen later ( in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos ) EXITING the Shrine / Youth Camp area along with all those other vehicles…. just a few minutes before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYAY call would hit the A2G radio channel.
Joy–Looking at this collection of photos–first is this a photo made by the security camera at the gate of the Helms road? I do not remember anything like that old car and neat arrangement of rocks–I would think then this camera was in a different spot. Can you identify where this exact location is?
Joy thanks for posting the photos. There are some important photos there to help fin training future wild land fire fighters. Especially important is that photo of the boulder pile after the burn that killed the men. Someone got it just right because that is the flag pole just a few yards, maybe 50 below where the GMHS crew deployed. It does not have the whole boulder field that actually continues up to the top of the mountain and a saddle and then the boulders in a smaller mountain to the east of the Saddle. But what is shown is how very close to that boulder field they were. You can also determine the scorching of the boulders and the distance that was. Now if you can understand in another photo that there was about 100=150 yards more of that boulder field going up that mountain you now understand the fallacy of teaching someone to depend upon a flimsy blanket when there is a boulder field near by which would give you a high probability of surviving–especially if you can get hign enough into the boulders and would maybe find a bouder to get behind to shield yourself from the fire. But of course that particular boulder pile has enough underground cavities that you can even get below the main fire. So who trained these fellows of GMHS that they could rely on a totally useless blanket in a dehydrated manzanita overgrowth? And whose decision to deploy in those damn blankets when you are looking straight at a boulder field? Was it Marsh or Steed and another argument over what to do–go to the field of boulders or use the turkey roasters as Gary dubs them.
There is another photo of retired copter pilot Chuck Tardy–he developed prostate cancer some time after the fire. I do not know if he is still surviving –he did a lot toward helping people at Yarnell and organizing and leading town meetings, Chuck knows plenty but what is he willing to say–you see the camaraderie in the photo–who wants to challenge these people even if they are going along with a blatant lie?
Contrary to belief, there are many up to doing the challenge. Those are the people posting here but also some that have got in mind it is the right thing to do despite the idea we are obliged to go along with wrong because we are a part of the group. Peer pressure in that type group is certainly stronger than in a Yarnell Town Meeting. And most of those Yarnellites were fooled and pressured as well. Most are in the lazy department when it comes to looking at the truth–they say why rock the boat, haven’t we suffered enough–our insurance, our good friends of the world provided and these men did the best they could–let it be. But they do not understand the ramifications of doing that. Allowing this to slide will only guarantee future repetition to cause more deaths. Too many are concerned only with their own situation and give little thought to what can happen from allowing a mass negligent homicide to go unanswered and exposed and especially the wrongs committed to cause it.
I will admit I likely would have been one of those sitting on the side line saying nothing–shit I don’t need the boat rocking or have any real reason to be involved other than I was there that day and lost a son so thought it best the truth were out rather that the redacted farce presented by the main culprits. Joy I will say had me involved up to the neck line–and then it developed into seeing the many deaths skewed way beyond reason on the Bell Curve. So there you have it–and when you think of it I mostly can only cheer the wiser ones on.
Being a non-firefighter is a disadvantage but I wondered from my citizen, country boy point of view how that fire was not immediately tended to as soon as smoke was spotted. Then I wondered why so little was said about the boulder pile available instead of relying on the death blankets. I am not a death investigator but when Dr. Ted Putnam, who has chief investigated the 14 deaths at Storm King tells me that likely about half of the surviving spouses will not want to pursue anything suspicious concerning the investigation, I began to realize that someone needs to work toward the truth for those kids who later in life will want to know–not their mom’s version that things are right with the investigation–but they will want the facts. And most important of all, if your or my help to get at the truth is some small contribution then it is well worth it to save a young man’s life–especially a wild land fire fighter who is already risking enough.
I seem to vocalize a lot against the Slurry drops as well–the two hundred missing lives since 2013 needs to be addressed. These are the elderly for the most part–they deserve that respect, yet like the GMHS, the dead can not speak–it is up to us to speak for them. If those faces of the GMHS and the 200 elderly haunt you in your dreams it is because they want the truth known to all.
Reply to Charlie post on July 15, 2019 at 7:53 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> WTKTT – was the film on that security camera
>> available or it too eliminated? I knew it was
>> said to be shut off much of the time as well.
The video that has always been online is CONTINUOUS footage
that covers the following timeframe…
From: 22:32:10 ( 10:32:10 PM on Saturday night, June 29, 2013 )
To: 16:54:49 ( 4:54:49 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ).
4:54:59 PM on Sunday, June 30 is when the Boulder Springs Ranch finally
lost electric power, and the Security Cameras cut off.
By July 12, 2013 ( Just 11 days after the tragedy ), the investigators had
already come up with their own ‘Summary of Events’ based on EVERYTHING
seen in BOTH days of video footage.
The moment when it appears that DIVS Rance Marques ‘came and went’ in/out
the gate of the Boulder Springs Ranch ( not confirmed yet but possible ),
would be these two ‘events’ in the investigator’s list…
76. 16:06:45 small white SUV comes in
77. 16:10:35 small white SUV goes out
Here is the complete list of ‘events’ that the investigators published…
Notice the filename. This evaluation was completely finished on July 12, 2013,
BEFORE the SAIT even really had a chance to fully “get its boots on”…
—————————————————————————————–
Filename: “_20130712_Review of Helm Security Tape_doneby-IMET”
Review of Helm’s Security Camera Tape
June 29th-30th 2013
Note: When we returned the equipment the time shown on the security camera
(after setting it back up) was 14 minutes fast (compared to my Verizon cell phone).
Thus times could be ahead by 14 minutes. Need to cross reference when B33 flew
over the area at a listed time of 16:44 on this sheet.
Times had to be converted from listed Zulu time to MST. ( -7 hours from GMT/Zulu to MST ).
Note 2: Helms gave the key code to open their metal gate to the fire folks on
the 29th. Mr Helms remember the pumpkin being put in late evening (after 2300 29th).
If people got in it was due to knowing the key code because the gate will shut soon
after coming in.
Note 3: There is a path/2 track that a vehicle can take from the NW end of the
property around to the main road outside of the security gate
That’s all vehicles that came and went, planes that could be seen in the video,
and even moments when there were bugs and armadillos and deer.
————————————June 29th————————————————
01. 22:32:10 2 door (lighter) truck comes in
02. 22:32:30 hoard of bugs (lasted 40 seconds)/this was the first observance with many more not noted on this sheet
03. 22:34:57 2 door truck leaves
04. 22:54:16 flatbed vehicle comes in
05. 22:54:19 emergency truck comes in
06. 22:54:32 brush engine comes in
07. 22:54:48 large engine comes in
08. 22:54:59 another brush engine comes in
09. 22:55:12 support truck emergency vehicle comes in
10. 23:05:42 flat bed truck exits
11. 23:05:47 emergency truck exits
12. 23:06:07 support truck exits
13. 23:18:20 fire emergency truck/large comes in
14. 23:39:38 larger engine leaves
15. 23:41:35 to 23:42:10 water tender engines comes in
16. 23:42:35 brush engine leaves
17. 23:42:46 large brush engine leaves
18. 23:48:53 emergency support vehicle (2 door) comes back in
19. 23:53:17 emergency truck (lights on top/2 door) leaves
20. 23:53:39 brush engine leaves
21. 23:53:47 emergency support truck leaves (2 door)
22. 23:55:40 larger 2 door jeep leaves
————————————June 30th————————————————
23. 00:01:39 two door larger jeeps comes in
24. 00:02:04 water tender leaves
25. 00:22:00 water tender returns
26. 00:38:19 water tender leaves
27. 02:16:03 private 1 door car comes in
28. 02:16:28 private 1 door car goes out
29. 04:25:37 2 (armadillos/chupacaberas) now deer come in
30. 05:30:33 Emergency Truck (lights on top) comes in (red fire stripe)
31. 07:44:37 ATV tan brimmed hat comes in
32. 08:05:05 ATV tan brimmed hat leaves
33. 08:20:31 ATV tan brimmed hat leaves
34. 10:02:44 Red truck (appears civilian) comes in
35. 10:09:18 White 2 door car comes in
36. 10:18:51 White2 door car leaves
37. 11:08:00 cumulus to the east
38. 11:29:07 Red truck leaves (same as 10:02:44)
39. 12:08:00 Red truck returns (same as 11:29:07)
40. 12:16:34 Extended cab emergency truck comes in (yellow stripe)
41. 12:17:15 Extended cab emergency truck leaves
42. 12:20:01 Red truck leaves (same as 12:08:00)
43. 12:43:15 Fire engine (yellow base) comes in ( NOTE: Glendale BR156 – Also seen at RHR in PVFD Beylee’s photos. Stays until 14:26:57 )
44. 12:50:15 Helo flies over
45. 12:53:36 Fire engine (yellow base) leaves ( NOTE: Possibly Glendale BR156 that just came in at 12:43:15, but hard to tell for sure )
46. 13:04:33 Silver chevy truck comes in
47. 13:38:37 Crew cab red brush fire truck leaves ( NOTE: Almost definitely Sun City West Brush 103, as also seen in Tom Story photos )
48. 13:46:00 Billowing black smoke (most smoke and black up to this point)
49. 13:48:34 Plane heading south (slower movement)
50. 13:50:33 Plane heading south (slower movement)
51. 13:56:06 Plane heading south
52. 14:02:10 plane heading south (slow)
53. 14:02:56 plane heading south (faster)
54. 14:03:11 plane heading south (faster)
55. 14:18:55 Plane heading south (slow)
56. 14:25:00 Little more wind/bushes moving
57. 14:26:54 Helms coming in with golfcart
58. 14:26:57 Yellow brush fire engine goes out (one observed coming in at 12:43:15) ( NOTE: Glendale BR156 )
59. 14:34:36 Helms jeep leaves
60. 14:44:00 fire getting closer with big black smoke
61. 14:51:14 Plane heading south (going slower)/wind picking up within the bushes
62. 14:54:28 Plane heading south (slow)
63. 15:06:00 Less black smoke/not as bad
64. 15:06:45 very faint plane heading north
65. 15:13:00 Another active fire pulse based on smoke
66. 15:13:02 plane heading north
67. 15:14:46 Helms jeep comes in
68. 15:15:40 to 15:16:35 to 45 Plane heads north (fast) and another slowly comes in from SE
69. 15:16:28 Plane heading NNE
70. 15:21:08 Plane heads north (slow)
71. 15:24:43 Silvery chevy truck goes out (black smoke billowing up)
72. 15:28:54 Red brush engine comes in(looks similar to one that has come in before)
73. 15:30:48 Red brush engine goes back out (heavy black smoke standing up)
74. 15:45:00 to 15:50:00 Getting darker, black smoke
75. 16:00:00 continue with heavy black smoke
76. 16:06:45 small white SUV comes in
77. 16:10:35 small white SUV goes out
78. 16:22:53 2 door white jeep leaves (luggage case on top)
79. 16:30:13 Plane or bird heading south
80. 16:44:00 Plane heading east (could be B33)
81. 16:49:42 to 16:54:33 Interesting plume dynamics. South end sucking in and
lifting up (2 pulses of that) and then various inflow-outflow considerations.
Need to speed up the video 16x and 32x. Between 23:49:00 to 23:51:00 can see a
lift up or pulse upward (smoke).
82. 16:53:52 scene goes to infrared mode because camera thinks it is nighttime (glowing
embers and ash show up)… seems to be sucking into the column (coming in from the SW).
83. 16:54:54 Switch ember fall out direction (originally South to North or SW to NE) from North to South
84. 16:54:59 end frame
——————————————————————————————————–
I likely am on that security camera as well since I came out that way–there is no fence around the property so coming out there is no way to know you are on private property walking out. In Arizona the law requires signs every 50 feet with the law section numbers, etc if you want to legally keep people off vacant land.. But there were several hundred people going back and forth after the burn and I and another person had met a LA Fireman leaving a shirt at the Flag Pole.
As you say there is another access point but the gravel and graded road would have been likely the only used place. It is significant that this SUV came in almost at the time Marsh would have been talking with the Men–am I right there. This is also possibly the bosswho DND mentioned had ordered the burn he talks about that trapped the men.
that was giving orders for the burn.
If the FBI investigates this they are going to need your help–you have this down to an unquestionable scientific arrangement so the details would fly a rocket to its destination with perfect precision. Likewise any Documentary film company would of necessity include you in getting it right. Thanks, a genius at getting it right is really important in this particular historical death event
Some are out there with a degree of trepidation –concerns for their job–peer friend loss–and even prosecution. The fabricators have purposely played it that way and have been doing this for a long time. Dr. Ted’s conversations with me about the Storm King where he was chief investigator, the Mann Gulch event, another cover up, and many others that wild land fire boss on this site have mentioned leads me to see this is a fairly common occurrence.
However, I am one to believe in this Yarnell death case that the ones in fear are those that have made such a mess of the management of the wild land fire–you can see that by the Phingston witness of what was said to her “you don’t want us to go to jail do you?”. That was an attempt to get sympathy and and an agreement to align with their concocted version of things. Yet it rings to a true statement.
I am certain there is already very near enough information to bring in the FBI–this is very serious and death of men working in several states and with a part of the fire itself on federal lands. Federal fire fighters were present as well.
And you have to know the FBI never was in on any cover up here and if they happen to take a look at this botched investigation and people hiding facts, they will not be covering but uncovering the truth as they find it. Yes indeed, it would be smart for some to be cleaning some of the dirt from under their fingernails before this happens.
I would not be one to worry about holding back vital information that would implicate the culprits. Some of those have to be shuttering in their shined extra long shoes already. I suspect their noses have grown a bit since the fire–but their actions of redactions, video hiding, threats of job security and orders of mum among other obvious signs of cover up will easily identify suspects.
To make it clear there is a fence blocking the front of the property. I imagined because of the immense field of manzanita surrounding the Helms that they felt there would be no one that might enter from the west or south. I mean even a bear would likely not want to try that stuff unless he needed a wallow and there were those areas as well. But bears only wallow out a area that usually is about the size of the fenced deployment area. Because they break the manzanita down, it becomes impassable and you have to go around those area.
Harold in Canada would have a better take on why bears wallow and that sort of thing–but I don’t know if he has bear wallows near by and whether they have manzanita forest areas there or not but likely Harold has a bear in his back yard.. I think manzanita is a protected plant in Arizona–well the GMHS thought so the way they went at it–saving another Juniper are we? Is Manzanita the Arizona state plant?
So I think you can now enter private property from the west as you drop off to see the deployment site. And by law you should not be in danger hiking out toward the west and the fence that Helms had constructed to the front of the property. That is an easy short hike right into the paved streets of Glen Isla–the end of Foot Hills Drive and so on. If you avoid the gate you won’t get photographed and legally if you go down a 100 ft or so and see no sign which even at the gate you can not see (trespassing sign) since you come in from the west and signs face east–then you are in your legal right.
This information might save some old codger of my ilk that doesn’t think he can make it back up that god awful winding trail to that little shade and bench–then that long trek back down to the Hwy 89 smiling lady waiting in the brown and green Forest Attire ready to offer you a bottle of water and maybe even first aid.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 14, 2019 at 9:21 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Check out this link for the mystery BLM Engine you are seeking from one
>> of Joy’s DropBox links.
>>
>> Joshua Hudson Yarnell Fire Investigation\Photos-Video\ASFD Photos
>>
>> I’m pretty sure it’s the first photo with the guy sitting on top of the Engine
Nope. That is a photo of AZ State Engine 151 at the Yarnell Fire Station taken at 7:12 PM on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
Here’s a better picture of AZ State Engine 151 taken the next day Sunday, June 30, 2013 when it was parked up near the Model Creek ICP…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos?preview=IMG_20130630_140341_339.jpg
It’s the first white-with-red-stripe Engine on the left there in the foreground, with all the gas containers lined up in that ‘mesh cage’ on the passenger rear, and the ‘square window’ on the passenger-side door.
That photo taken at dusk on Saturday, June 29, 2013 with the guy standing on the roof of AZ State Engine 151 is one of the original Larz Garcia photos.
That Larz Garcia photo number 15 was taken with a Network-Connected iPhone 4s and has a date/time stamp of: 2013:06:29 19:12:30 ( 7:12:30 PM )
It’s photo number 15 in this public evidence folder…
ADOSH Yarnell Hill Investigation / Photos and Video / ASFD Photos / Miscellaneous Photos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Unlike the photos in Joy’s Google folder ( your link above ), the one in the ADOSH public evidence folder still has all the date/timestamp information.
The stuff that Joy is uploading to Google ends up with all the original EXIF/metadata stripped from the photo(s).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> and the other one is the far left one under the panorama photo with the BLM
>> Engine (facing the photographer) in front of the red Ponderosa Fire PU
>> and the PFD pickup.
Yes… that is a BLM Engine there in the background, up on Model Creek Road at 3:47 PM.
But No… it is not BLM Engine E-1660 ( with ENGB Larwoc and 5 other crew members ).
It is the other BLM Engine that was assigned to work with SPGS2 Darrell Willis that day.
It is BLM Engine E-3665 ( With ENGB Shawn and 3 other crew members ).
The photo you are now referencing is actually photo number 28 in the same ADOSH public evidence folder listed above.
Larz-Garcia Photo number 28 was on taken on Sunday, June 30, 2013 up at the intersection of Double-Bar-A-Ranch Road and Model Creek Road. You can see ( and read ) the actual street sign there in the photo itself.
It shows the Prescott FD pickups and BLM Engine E-3665 there in the background.
Larz-Garcia photo number 28 was taken with the same Network-Connected iPhone 4s and has a date/time stamp of: 2013:06:30 15:47:43 ( 3:47:43 PM ).
It was taken from inside ASFD Engine 151, which is what Larz Garcia was in, at that time, on June 30, 2013.
That is Cory Moser’s Prescott FD pickup truck in the right foreground.
The License Plate matches what was in the ‘Travel Mode’ field of Moser’s Resource Order O-9.
TFLD (t) Cory Moser’s Resource Order ( in the “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document )…
———————————————————————————————————
Request Number: O-9
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 1935 PM ( Saturday, June 29, 2013 – 9:35 PM )
From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: TASK FORCE LEADER (TFLD) (T-A)
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0600 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: AZ-ADC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 0755 PNT
Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-PRC ( Prescott Dispatch Center )
Resource Assigned: MOSER, CORY (AZ-ADC) (T)
M/D Ind.: M
Estimated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 0800 PNT
Estimated Time of Arrival: 06/30/13 0930 PNT
Released Date: ( No entry )
Released To: ( No entry )
Travel Mode: AOV G039EJ
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( The Yarnell Hill Fire )
Special Needs: REPORT TO YARNELL FD 22558 S. LOOKA WAY, YARNELL AZ. 85362
———————————————————————————————————–
Followup…
Here is a clearer photograph of BLM Engine E-3665.
It’s on the actual NIFC website for the Prescott Dispatch Center…
NIFC Page for the Prescott Dispatch Center..
https://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dc/azpdc/operations/equipment.php
BLM Engine E-3665 is the THIRD photograph in the NINE photo ‘slideshow’ that plays on that NIFC Prescott Dispatch Center web page.
Followup 2…
And here is a direct link to that profile photograph of BLM Engine E-3665 on that NIFC Prescott Dispatch Center website linked to in the previous message…
https://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dc/azpdc/images/image-scroller-images/BLM-E3665.jpg
Now here is a close-up photograph of the driver’s side mirror of BLM Engine E-1660…
Arizona BLM posted the following photo on their public Facebook page on April 22, 2015.
The photo was taken when E-1660 was on assignment at the Upland Island Prescribed Burn in the Angelina National Forest, Texas and also shows ENGB Trainee Samual Jamie Rogers.
https://www.facebook.com/BLMArizona/photos/a.159393274118276/882697061787890/?type=3&theater
As the photos above show… the SIDE MIRRORS are completely different between BLM Engine E-3665 and BLM Engine E-1660.
WTKTT,
It never ceases to amaze me the YH Fire data at your beck and call that is so easily and readily available to you. Thank you for all that you always provide.
From the post above you talk about and show the profile photograph of BLM Engine E-3665 ( https://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dc/azpdc/images/image-scroller-images/BLM-E3665.jpg ) which is a TYPE 3 Engine.
Next you show a photo of the driver’s side mirror of BLM Engine E-166o, a TYPE 6 Engine from a BLM Facebook page on April 22, 2015.
( https://www.facebook.com/BLMArizona/photos/a.159393274118276/882697061787890/?type=3&theater )
My questions are: (1) why are you comparing oranges to grapefruits? And what does it matter if “the SIDE MIRRORS are completely different between BLM E-3665 (TYPE 3 Engine) and BLM E-1660 (TYPE 6 Engine)?
These are two totally different Engine TYPES, so why are the side mirrors an issue?
That was in case you had any doubts which BLM engine that is in the Larz-Garcia photo taken at 3:47 PM up there at the intersection of Double-Bar-A-Ranch Road and Model Creek Road.
There is no question that is BLM E-3665 in that photo, and not BLM E-1660.
That’s the last known photo of BLME E-3665 prior to the deployment, but Unit Logs indicate that just like Tonto National Forest Type 3 Engine E-58, it stayed right there on Model Creek Road helping SPGS2 Darrell Willis with his Model Creek Road burnouts right up until the time of deployment.
That’s when Willis turned the Structure Group over to TFLD Todd Foster and Willis headed down to Yarnell ( but USFS E-58 and BLM E-3665 still stayed there, up north, now under Todd Foster’s command ).
BLM E-1660 is still the Type 6 that was supposedly ‘up all night’ and released for rest by TFLD Todd Foster at 10:23 AM.
But the ‘mystery’ still remains regarding BLM E-1660.
In all the photos taken for the rest of the day, there is no photographic evidence that BLM E-1660 ( and crew ) were ever ‘parked’ anywhere near the Model Creek ICP… or anywhere else, for that matter.
Circa 10:23 AM that day… BLME E-1660 just sort of ‘vanished’.
WTKTT,
Thanks for watching out for me on this post and reassuring me.
Rest assured I had NO doubts whatsoever which BLM engine that is in the Larz-Garcia photo taken at 3:47 PM up there at the intersection of Double-Bar-A-Ranch Road and Model Creek Road.
In addition, there is further NO question that it is BLM E-3665 (TYPE 3) in that photo, and NOT BLM E-1660 (TYPE 6).
After four decades of wildland fire experience, I do know the difference.
What I didn’t understand was how side mirrors would make any difference at all.
( Heavy sigh )
In YOUR post ( which I was ‘Replying’ to )… YOU are the one who was already ‘claiming’ that you believed the BLM Engine in BOTH of those photograph was the Type 6 BLM E-1660 ‘Mystery Engine’ that I had been ‘looking for’.
YOU said…
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Check out this link for the mystery BLM Engine
>> you are seeking from one of Joy’s DropBox links.
>>
>> Joshua Hudson Yarnell Fire Investigation\Photos
>> Video\ASFD Photos
>>
>> I’m pretty sure it’s the first photo with the guy sitting
>> on top of the Engine
And then, with regards to the other Model Creek Road photo… same deal.
YOU are the one who was ( apparently ) thinking that BLM Engine was the ‘Type 6 BLM E-1660’ ‘mystery engine’ I was talking about earlier…
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> and the other one is the far left one under the
>> panorama photo with the BLM Engine (facing
>> the photographer) in front of the red Ponderosa
>> Fire PU and the PFD pickup.
So now, I guess, your only possible comeback is “I thought the engine that fell off the radar was the Type 3 and not the Type 6”.
Or not. You could just “let it go”.
You pointed out something. I cleaned it up. It’s over.
Please don’t turn this into another one of your Trips to Abilene’
WTKTT,
By Jove, that’s it – I thought the engine that fell off the radar was the Type 3 Engine
Thanks for pointing that out and cleaning it up
No intentions of turning this into another one of YOUR Trips to Abilene
If you were a drummer… you’d be the guy that finish everything with the final rim shots’… eh?
LMAO
Let’s get back to Coleman then, and play some more dominoes.
In YOUR wanderings or research… do YOU have any idea what happened to BLM Type 6 Engine E-1660 after 10:30 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013?
WTKTT,
I have no clue on what happened to BLM E-1660.
This was all new to me.
Time will tell and usually reveals what we’re looking for
Lack of 1660 photo evidence might be another coincidence–too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. Maybe some of the firemen that worked on it will post for us–you know that they had to have been photographing their work as they could. These cell phones even have camera’s these days.
on the Helms section and their footage topic …
I am for sure not gas lighting yet there is something not adding up here
( https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=UvQtXdf4I5GS0PEPpZG5yAQ&q=gaslighting+definition&oq=gaslighting&gs_l=psy-ab.1.6.0j0i131j0j0i131j0l6.2229.3697..7059…1.0..0.419.1958.0j11j4-1……0….1..gws-wiz…..10..35i39.ztt1A-CpGX0 )
I just learned a new word so if I misuse it above I wanted to know if anyone else ever heard that word before? When I first heard it I went right to drip torching…but nope….
Wtktt states the unredacted is all on the links here and people first hand reading this – are you seriously okay with that being in the public and if so … how come ? … how many years have to pass for you to come to the front? …
Recently, it has been a roller coaster ride for me behind the scenes because I am learning when I am trying to back channel you wtktt which I do with many on IM – you are not an isolated person yet the bottom line we may have our differences or whatever label yet “we always fall back to the core” of properly documenting the incoming information.
Yet I do feel at times you come out biting or it is perceived such way and please I ask you to forgive me for me doing that yet I am firm that there is not just FFs who stated accounts in that area yet also homeowners seen it so let us agree that this is not a closed shut the door sealed area until more information surfaces…can we agree to that?
I will be offline today after 10am.
Get well to “you know who” and cool news on the two additions..ruff ruff…
Reply to Downhillndirect ( DND ) post on July 14, 2019 at 7:18 pm
>> DND said…
>>
>> The video I am referring to was shot by a hybrid friend on the east side of BSR.
>> He sent it to me to confirm he wasn’t crazy. I had it electronically for a little
>> while before the SAIT team caught on that he sent it from work to a few of us.
>> I was made to destroy my copy and shut up, Fuck that. That video has most
>> of what you all are looking for.
How did he send it you?
Was it an email attachment?
If so… then depending on what email client/server you use… it could be recovered.
Also…. you know that just because you click ‘Delete’ on something on your computer that doesn’t mean it’s REALLY gone… right?
The posts get better–and some goo concentrated erffort now–this IM gets side tracked at times–ok and once the smoke is cleared, we can see some progress.
What DND described sounds if it might very well be the road to Helms–definitely easy entry with nice graded gravel and that, now that I know something of the fire fighter tactics, I would expect that to be a burn–Helms would have been burned about but everyone considered it a bomb proof situation. There was a lady from Phoenix with a big home in that area and depending upon where the burn started and ended, perhaps only a few homes on the far west end of Glen Isla would have been endangered.
The Shrine is a given–yet when RTS posted the photo where you can make out three distinct and separate smoke stacks, I am inclined to think there were at least three burns in operation. Of course those that want to write history as a fiction would know but avoid and get any video of such removed. They did on the Shrine for sure but now I am certain that the description so far is related not to the Shrine but either to Sesame St. or the Helms graded entry road–that road would vary in distance from the two track perhaps the 3500 ft to 5600 ft. If that road were set afire then there would be absolutely no way for the men to reach anywhere except either the Helms or the boulder pile. From the smoke we saw on that RTS posted photo that sounds to be one of the burns and all were photographed and known yet the videos confiscated and likely destroyed. That would be outright tampering with evidence on a murder investigation–no wonder was Roy Hall that Phingston said had worries of going to jail. Damn straight should–but DND expressed it well the good ole boy system can get you fired for telling the truth and if the culprits are found out who have removed evidence, redacted, secured mum orders, and threatened people against revealing this crucial evidence then they might be the ones that loss face and jobs. Rightly so and why I have wondered that the FBI has not gotten interested.
This is a federal case but we are also dealing with FEMA–pretty strong folks and they appear to have a hand in this cover up as well in that they would or should have known what nefarious acts were in progress. Federal agencies do not like to investigate othe/Federal Agencies but Gary has said he had done that very thing at times. So he would more information and sound remarks regarding that type situation than most.
Reply to Charlie post on July 15, 2019 at 3:32 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> What DND described sounds if it might very well be the road to Helms.
Not possible.
The Helms’ Front Gate Security camera video right up through ( and after ) the time of deployment has long since eliminated that possibility.
WTKTT,
What source do you have for this claim? :
“The Helms’ Front Gate Security camera video right up through ( and after ) the time of deployment has long since eliminated that possibility.”
Fulfilled Public Records Requests for the Helms property security cameras revealed video footage of fire vehicles traveling to and fro that was redacted.
Do you have access to unredacted Helm’s Ranch security camera video footage?
Joy contacted the Helms directly for these unredacted and missing videos without success.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) July 15, 2019 at 6:38 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> What source do you have for this claim? :
>>
>> “The Helms’ Front Gate Security camera video right up
>> through ( and after ) the time of deployment has long
>> since eliminated that possibility.”
My ‘source’ is “The Helms’ Front Gate Security camera video”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Fulfilled Public Records Requests for the Helms property
>> security cameras revealed video footage of fire vehicles
>> traveling to and fro that was redacted.
>>
>> Do you have access to unredacted Helm’s Ranch security
>> camera video footage?
The UNREDACTED Helms Security Camera Footage has ALWAYS been sitting in InvestigativeMEDIA’s online SAIT Evidence Folder.
It’s all right here..
.AZ Forestry Division Investigation \ Photos and Video \ Helm Ranch Security Videos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADx3L_3anFxbnGTtlrdm123a/Photos%20and%20Video/Helm%20Ranch%20Security%20Videos?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Funny that even though there was never any need to make such a request that you would ( apparently? ) get some kind of redacted material back in response to an Open Records Request… when the while frickin’ shooting match has always been already-made-public.
I actually was looking at all that today and noticed something I hadn’t seen before.
At exactly 4:08 PM… DIVSZ Ranch Marquez’s white SUV enters the front gate of the Boulder Springs Ranch Compound.
There wasn’t really anyone left there, at that time, so he only stayed for about 2 minutes and then is seen exiting the Boulder Springs Ranch again at about 4:10 PM.
I wonder who DIVSZ Ranch Marquez was looking for at that critical moment… and where he went from there?
Is it possible he just ‘took a left’ after coming OUT of the Boulder Springs Ranch at 4:10 PM… and then just drove north on Sesame Street and ran into some ‘Engines’ exiting that area?
His assistant Cougan Carothers does NOT appear to have been with him at this time. They were both driving their own vehicles that day and NOT traveling around together.
NOTE: If you start viewing the Security Camera stuff… remember that Lee Helm had his camera set to record in Zulu ( GMT ) time… so you have subtract 7 hours to get the REAL timestamps.
Joy contacted the Helms directly for these unredacted and missing videos without success.
Whoops… typing too fast again.
The DIVSZ guy’s name is “Rance Marquez”… not “Ranch Marquez”
Also… that very last line in my Reply about Joy contacting the Helms was just leftover from your post and I forgot to whack it off the end of my ‘Reply’.
There was no need for Joy to go to that trouble.
That stuff has always been sitting right there online at the link above.
John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA was VERY interested in the Security Camera Footage basically since the day of the tragedy… and he made SURE to get it… and make it available to everyone.
WTKTT–was the film on that security camera available or it too eliminated? I knew it was said to be shut off much of the time as well.
Reply to Charlie post on July 15, 2019 at 7:53 pm
>> Charlie asked…
>>
>> WTKTT–was the film on that security camera available
>> or it too eliminated? I knew it was said to be shut off
>> much of the time as well.
I posted a longer ‘Reply’ to this up above as a new ‘parent comment’.
It includes the full range of TIME covered by the only security video released so far… and also includes an ‘Event list’ of anything significant being SEEN in that security footage. That ‘list’ was done by the IMET team that first examined the video footage.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-480237
WTKTT–I had wondered if you have ever physically been on the site at Yanell–walked the Shrine road, hiked that canyon to the ranch and beyond–taken that dozed road the Shrine intersects which to the southwest intersects the Sesame St. dirt road and then on Sesame St dirt road it goes to the old Grader and then over a steep saddle and down then up to intersect the two track?
The reason I ask, with your experience and wisdom, you would certainly have a good idea of a question of a burn be a high or would it be a low possibility in certain places when factoring in the time, the communications and other facts that your long time fire fighting has embedded in your mind.
If you have not, I would be honored to visit all that way and even hike some areas with you. I could bet there would be at least a dozen from here that would gladly attend–though I fear that many non contributors here would have fear since your questions might ferret out what they know and prefer to hide.
That is if you are not in a wheel chair or one of the Irish gods in hiding.
Reply to Charlie July 16, 2019 at 12:33 pm
>> Charlie asked…
>>
>> WTKTT–I had wondered if you have ever physically
>> been on the site at Yanell
No.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> The reason I ask, with your experience and wisdom,
>> you would certainly have a good idea of a question
>> of a burn be a high or would it be a low possibility
>> in certain places when factoring in the time, the
>> communications and other facts that your long
>> time fire fighting has embedded in your mind.
I believe I have posted all of the following before, at some point or the other.
I am not now, nor have I ever been, employed as either a structural or wildland firefighter.
But ( like you ), that doesn’t mean I haven’t fought fires in my day, either on my own acreage or on someone else’s.
I live in a VERY rural and VERY forested area… and there IS a VERY small local volunteer fire department. I am not a member of that group, either, but we all know each other up here and when a fire breaks out…. the call goes out… and it’s all able-bodied persons ( male or female ) on-deck.
There have only been a few times up here when we couldn’t just take care of business ourselves ( for both structural and wildland fires ) and would end up having to call for help.
I heat solely with wood and, as such, have to cut, limb, buck and split all my own firewood every season. I own 4 chainsaws and I’m pretty good with them. I am ABLE to ‘double-cut’… but I rarely do it. Always VERY dangerous.
And as for Arizona… I believe I have said the following before, as well.
I have never set foot in Arizona… and I have no intentions of ever doing so.
Most master loggers feel the same way about Arizona –
No surprise to hear it from you with four chainsaws – 😉
Most the logging Industry is divided I see nowadays- is it the same by you – this is not necessarily a recipe for sustainable economic growth
– is there a political pull in your area or real people doing real time the responsible way that Sonny use to do?
Hey Sonny- what did you tell me about this topic again-
that if you plant one tree for every one you cut down, the tree you planted does not even really replace the tree you took. The tree you cut down might be 200 years old, so the new one won’t be big enough for a long time. When the trees are gone, the logging will be gone too. Then the economic incentive is gone. Whole towns can dry up, because they depended on the logging industry. So the economic advantage is relatively short-lived…let me know again because it is a topic in person right now.
What is your take on this link,
Sonny: https://sciencing.com/about-6103371-logging-its-effect-ecosystem.html
If I remember right the ADOSH GUY , a fit fellow and marathon runner made it in 22 minutes while as I remember Joy and the injured partner of his were a good 10 minutes behind us. But that was after the burn and no brush to have to deal with. Joy could let us know the exact times there –and I know they both had taken note of the time to get down from the two track.
I have lived by a campfire or a wood burning stove since childhood so know about wood –and for quite a number of years sold loads of firewood doing quite well with it. I did always have three husky saws at all times on my trips and spit that stuff with a maul for years. I bought a cabin in Pinon, NM and after a while a hydraulic wood slitter–I do not think it split wood as fast as I could except with pinon or knotted pine–both hard to spit by maul. But then somehow I am not used to that splitter and somehow my glove caught me and how the hell you can get your hand between the back side of the log and the steel stop I do not know but I did and once I released the handle and reversed the thing I was looking at all the bones in the top of my hand exposed. As soon as I could I went back to hand splitting.
And that was really no accident–It happened at the end of a long day and I was working on the exhaustion level so my usual quick reactions were at a low level–Just like nearly all accidents are not really accidents but either carelessness or working while the mind and body are at a low state.
That would not give Marsh a pass concerning mind and body exhaustion–we watched him and I thought man this guy can move like a deer.
That makes good sense to me WTKTT. It was too bad Yarnell and Arizona was not the same on the day so many saw the lightening strike and smoke. Here the folks rely on the fire department but that should be a lesson to Yarnellites. A few good men from there could have easily contained that fire and saved the town and 19 GMHS firemen and allowed the good fire station fighters to sit back and watch though their field glasses if they did not want to engage.
That lightening strike and boulder fire was not a ferocious thing–but allowing it to come down the mountain and get into the manzanita was what firemen would know could and did put them to work.
Still I was informed that there were a couple guys that had argued with the chief and wanted to preform duty. That fire chief by the way stepped down and I think Joy said moved to Phoenix where he is again employed in fire fighting.
Here you would be arrested for going to put out a fire as a citizen–there was a post by someone that said those two hikers should be put in prison so they had to shoot beans to them. That of course was after we began to question things. He did not know but Joy had asked permission from the fire department chief before we made the hike. He had told her go at it if you want but without permission you could have been arrested–Joy had indicated there were likely prospectors and she wanted to warn anyone in canyons and out of sight that the fire was in progress.
So yes I am certain your group has stopped many fires in the bud since my Dad and I had done it when I was a kid. And this latest article of the fire in Ireland–you see that people want to help defend their welfare.
What else might be added to the slurry that is secret?
S-CHEK®
FIRE RETARDANT GRADES LV-R AND MV-R
Reference
Number
AST10043
Date:
November 1, 2005
Company
/Undertaking Identification:
ICL
PERFORMANCE
PRODUCTS
LP
622 Emerson Road – Suite 500
St. Louis, Missouri 63141
Emergency
telephone
In USA call CHEMTREC:
1 800 424 9300
In Canada call CANUTEC:
1 613 996 6666
General Information:
1 800 244 6169 (Worldwide)
2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Component
CAS
No.
% by weight
Diammonium
Sulfate
7783-20-2
>
25
Monoammonium
Phosphate
7722-76-1
>
5
Diammonium
Phosphate
7783-28-0
>
5
Guar Gum, 2-Hydroxypropyl Ether
39421-75-5
< 5
Performance Additives +
Trade Secret
50
+
Components are Company Trade Secret – Business
Confidential. ICL Performance Products
LP is withholding the specific chemical i
dentity under provision of the OSHA Hazard
Communication Rule Trade Secrets (1910.1200(i)(1)).
The specific chemical identity will be made
available to health professionals in accor
dance with 29 CFR 1910.1200 (i)(1) (2) (3) (4).
None of those chemicals are safe for health–but what might there be not mentioned to the public. Well after Joy and I had watched a small plane load dumped just after Marsh found the fire edge on D-Day we could see it was dumped high and was quite widely dispersed–I thought at the time a waste.
So looking at that I realized you need some weight to the solution–perhaps that can explain the secret since the companies and FS do not really want you to know what they are dousing you and the environment with.
Most know that water has a value of 1 and when an equal volume of any other substance is compared to that of water you get a number called Specific Gravity. For instance depleted Uranium is 18.9 times the volume of an equal volume of water. It would make a good additive but the phosphates are already radioactive if from Florida so EPA might veto that after cleaning up abandoned phosphate mines in the cost of hundreds of millions. They do not want radioacrtive ground waters–their concern in Florida where 200 ft. sink holes are doing that. They do not mention the phosphates and ammonium contributing to instant fish death–hundreds of thousands on Florida Beaches where phosphates have leaked from the mines into rivers and ocean–nor the red algae that is the dead ocean zones.
So what might add to the weight or ability to non-disperse so widely? The iron oxide used to make the orange color is limonite powder and would have a SG of about 3.6.. Iron is about 7.5 but looses have the heft in the oxide form. The really good one for getting the particles to sink would actually be the oxide of lead. Lead is at 11.3 SG and its yellow oxide powder is 9.5 to almost 10. Not much loss in SG there and if stuck to those chemical PhosChek particles they would come down like a fish sinker.
I am not saying what they have, only a possibility. We do not know, perhaps something even more deadly than lead to the human. At least more deadly to the Yarnellite–maybe others are immune.
should read Uranium is 18.9 times as heavy as an equal volume of water–the ounce of lead in my body is starting to leach into my brain
equal volume of uranium compared to water–the uranium would weigh 18.9 times the weight of water way it should read–that is depleated uranium like they used for bullets in Iraq. nearly as heavy as gold at 19.3
Downhillndirect says
JULY 14, 2019 AT 7:18 PM
Last time I post until I feel the shitty tone and sarcasm subside.
I am working on it DHD… I apologize….
Try fielding a half a dozen phone calls from widows and people working on Yarnell Hill 6/30/13. I just returned home from a 14 day trip myself. I lost one of the best friends a man could have.
Yeah, when you begin to listen to the human factors to this all – I just do not comprehend the unknown variables and how they just let years go by….
The video I am referring to was shot by a hybrid friend on the east side of BSR. He sent it to me to confirm he wasn’t crazy. I had it electronically for a little while before the SAIT team caught on that he sent it from work to a few of us. I was made to destroy my copy and shut up, Fuck that. That video has most of what you all are looking for.
if it is a video by Sesame area I do have actual peoples’ accounts so even if the SAIT think they messed that up – we have the people who were up on knolls still alive – what a mess – I get the teams and Staff Ride folks want “lessons learned” and talk good outcomes yet 19 men died not a few – almost a whole crew – ???
The burn I was told about was by the engine supervisor at the time in 2013. If everyone is savvy with doctored redacted records then yo will find him. His words, not mine were “We haven’t slept in almost two days and as we headed out north to south, a guy stopped us and said “ Light the road on the way out, hold it up shy of the ranch”.
yes – this is where it gets sticky always for me because many of FFs tell me their accounts and since they don’t know the area well they are unsure which area yet yours defined his N, E, S. W location so that helps … I have to spend time showing some FFs their pics and show it in Google earth… and there was a low quality video I too seen when we were at Buckys Spring 2015 from a Sawyer and it is reported here on IM…and in that video it would be nice to see if it is the same local FD folks…
Apparently there is video of this but it’s awful quality. I’m not a Fucking informant.
I am really glad you stated “that word” because I want the world to know I am not an informant’s handler if I hear others accounts – I am just the housewife hiker who God shares me folks – I have heard first hand accounts from all areas of the Spur Roads from June 30, 2013 from both Firefighters to Homeowners … I have shared best way I can on IM and my blog without breaking anonymity or other reasons but yeah I am just me not purposely withholding and all the time behind the scenes I am documenting to secure some data and so yeah … I said for years there is folks who do need to SPEAK UP but it is not hearsay me – I can write all the time yet we need ethical “first-hand” accounts to finally share…
I am a man that loves his family , friends and coworkers dead or alive. This isn’t a game nor does anyone deserve an award.
sigh of relief because finally a human who gets me there… I live here yet many still do not comprehend this instead they spew you wanted to keep doing this so you put yourself here so expect the unexpected … really? I would rather be hiking and enjoying life but I stay with it because 19 men should be here – simple as that – this is not a game for me either and I get tired of folks saying that over time – I am not a pc person and typing can take on its own language behaviors depending on the other ends’ perceptions or moods – I look forward to being home yet I am solely focused day after day ultimately to ensure this 2019 it all comes out … even if the others think lawyering up is the solution vs finally sharing the facts
This shit took friends away, time off of my life and has ruined relationships.
same here – you learn your friends and who they are thru this DHD
The burden I pass on as I won’t watch current or retired FF’s pay for a huge F-up by multiple leaders.
<b. Same here.
I miss Jess daily and know the other men charged with falsifying all the information you all get think we are sheep.
I am a bear, DHD …especially nowadays with this swollen tummy and pain
I’m a fucking sheepdog
my reply: https://images.app.goo.gl/tyUC7WUKK4qQ4U4U6
and I won’t have anyone turn my words or fail to pass them along. If you think I’m wrong, I’ll send emails explaining why my comments were denied. I’m here to help make those that got away with murder answer for everything.
is it negligence? or murder? or manslaughter?
Joy is a angel that didn’t ask for this neither did Sonny, please be easy on them. RTS is a well respected man that has no fear to get truth.
I am just me … thank you, sir
As far as other videos, I could care less, you can sway a million people in 6 years. Cougar is a good man as well as a few others made to be pawns.
b> My cougar – oh how I miss him… but Sonny and I saw Christmas 2014 on the Weavers a new cougar…but yes Cougan deserves to share his story too
I will never give direct names
I will once I get the documents to back it up … I will show the Sesame to Shrine and spur roads because it is my life long journey to the point I am keeping my “housewife hiker” label with the hopes to keep getting trained up to be a Fire and Law and Forenic Weather Investigator so I can show I am not fading out on this or other fires – here to stay –
but I will give enough for the “Twlvw angry men. iM ,put it together.
huh????
Instead of calling me an informant how about building trust first?
I know wtktt will probably say it takes two… yet I am stating a lot of questions surfaced and DHD you did try to reply and JD is unavailable so we just have to wait but meanwhile some areas just cannot be answered but you wtktt keep asking time and I have answered that in another chapter – 18 minutes before –
I will answer what I know without putting friends or myself on welfare. I don’t look at IM everyday so please be patient. BTW my username is a purposeful name, spelled incorrectly to challenge those that have really studied fatalities, agreed
Reply to Joy A Collura post o July 14, 2019 at 2:07 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> wtkkt said: Are you possibly referring to either Matthew Jackson and/or Conrad
>> Jackson ( full name Eric Conrad Jackson )?
>> MY REPLY:
>> No, but that is another request still pending and how long do I have to wait to get his???
Get his WHAT?
What did you request? His personnel file?
It’s actually doubtful that even the parts of his personnel file that you would be legally allowed to see would tell you anything about exactly where he was or what he was doing on any particular assignment.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> wtktt said: but there have always been rumors they MAY have been sighted down
>> in the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area close to the time of the deployment.
>> MY REPLY: I heard that same rumor in 2014, 2016, 2018 and have had in on my last
>> time I heard it – my request just sits there waiting to be filled… one of Prescott finest
>> also was to be there who I cannot yet share on but I do have requests in-
I think we have been over this before… but when it comes to municipalities, they have more ways to “jerk you around” for public records requests than Federal level FOIAs allow.
They have to follow STATE laws… but most state laws ( Arizona included ) use looser TIME language than the Feds. Sometimes it just says they are allowed a “reasonable amount of time” to fulfill a request.
If you asked for the MOON with some kind of huge all-inclusive SHOTGUN request… then the “reasonable amount of time” window expands considerably.
In any event… after what any sane person would consider a “reasonable amount of time” has passed… and there’s nothing… the next step is to the State Attorney’s Office to see if they can light a fire under that municipality’s ass. If that fails… next step is a civil lawsuit against that municipality.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> wtktt said: TFLD Todd Foster really did ‘release’ them back to the Model Creek School
>> ICP for REST late morning on Sunday, June 30… but here’s the mystery…
>> MY REPLY: can you help me here – was it more like 10:55am this time-
A little earlier, according to TFLD Todd Foster.
More like 10:30 AM, right after they had finished a ‘scouting’ assignment for Foster…
From Todd Foster’s Unit Log…
——————————————————————————————————-
1023
BLM Engine 1660 (T6) gave info on area and was then released for rest as they were in area of 30+ hours work. TNF E58 and BLM E3665 working w/ Darrell on Double Bar A Ranch along w/ Yuma D.O.C. handcrew. Surprise WT assigned to state at intersection of Double Bar A Rd. and Model Creek Rd. Congress WT-1 assigned to fill pumpkin at residence w/ BR441. Trigger points established.
——————————————————————————————————–
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> wtktt said: In all of the TONS of photographs that are available of the ICP pretty much
>> all day long on Sunday… this BLME-1660 Type 6 engine never shows up in ANY of
>> them, at ANY time.
>> MY REPLY: now I wish we lived near and could speak in person… what a shame… yet
>> I will state I noted that too…
So.. are you ‘hinting’ ( again ) that you have some kind of ‘secret’ information about this BLM-E1660 Engine?
Again… the standard ‘followu-up’ question would be…
What has to happen before you can just tell us what you know?
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> wtktt said: Downhillndirect said…
>> “I will not name the brave man that was ordered to fire the well known roads by a
>> non-existent Div Supe after 48 hours of sleep deprivation.”
>> MY REPLY: I know that answer but it is NOT BLM E1660 and not my position to clarify
>> WHO but I do know who – I interviewed that person. Maybe DHD can clarify
>> too or give more details to this area.
More hinting. I get it.
Again… standard follow-up question…
What has to happen before you can just tell us what you know?
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> wtktt said: Also… the first part of that statement seems to imply that the person who
>> gave the ‘firing orders’ was none other than DIVS-Z Rance Marquez.
>> MY REPLY: what happened to Cougan Carothers? I am confused –
>> wasn’t he the overhead hybrid on that fire?
Cougan Carothers was a ‘hybrid’.
His regular job was with the Central Yavapai Fire District.
Carothers was ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell at 8:00 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
His resource order number was O-27 and he was fulfilling an order for a “STRIKE TEAM LEADER, ENGINE ( STEN ) (T-A)”
Upon arrival in Yarnell, he was assigned to DIVSZ Rance Marques as a ‘Strike Team Leader’ Trainee ( STL(t) ).
From DIVSZ Rance Marquez’s Unit Log… dated July 2, 2013…
———————————————————————————————————
Rance Marquez – DIVSZ – Unit Log created July 2, 2013
I arrived at ICP at approximately 1030 and checked in with Todd Abel and Paul Musser who were doing operations. I was briefed and shown on a map where the fire was what it was doing and how to get into the area. I was told that Divisions Alpha was in the area with two crews.
Operations designated me division Zulu and was asked to go out and find a division/anchor point and determine resource needs for the next shift.
Before leaving Coogan Caruthers was assigned to go with me as a STL(T).
———————————————————————————————————-
Cougan Caruthers was working under Marquez all day on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
After the deployment, Caruthers was assigned as ‘medical’ to the team that was being assembled in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot to possibly go an ‘rescue’ the GM Hotshots.
From Safety Officer Marty Cole’s SAIT Interview Notes…
———————————————————————————————————
17:22 ( 5:22 PM )
A team was organized with Cougan Caruthers as medical.
We ordered 4 helos and several ambulances were on standby.
———————————————————————————————————
WTKTT said:
Get his WHAT?
What did you request? His personnel file?
It’s actually doubtful that even the parts of his personnel file that you would be legally allowed to see would tell you anything about exactly where he was or what he was doing on any particular assignment.
————————————–
Joy A. Collura’s Reply To Wtktt 7/14/19 9pm:
Request Visibility: Unpublished
Request received via web
April 5, 2019, 11:38am
“Ms. Collura,
You stated the following in your records request, “Conrad Jackson mentions Mark and he said 12 people from Prescott (11 from Prescott Fire and 1 from Chino Valley) – may I have that record of them being assigned to June 30 to July 2nd 2013.” Please clarify exactly what it is that you are looking for because I am unable to determine that at this time.
Also, I would like to kindly remind you that the Prescott Fire Department does not have a GMHS alumni roster.
Thank you.
April 17, 2019, 10:30am by Jaimie Sventek, Business Manager (Staff)”
————————————————
Dear Requester,
Please respond to the following inquiry from staff.
Ms. Collura,
You stated the following in your records request, “Conrad Jackson mentions Mark and he said 12 people from Prescott (11 from Prescott Fire and 1 from Chino Valley) – may I have that record of them being assigned to June 30 to July 2nd 2013.” Please clarify exactly what it is that you are looking for because I am unable to determine that at this time.
Also, I would like to kindly remind you that the Prescott Fire Department does not have a GMHS alumni roster.
Thank you.
If you do not wish to respond and wish to withdraw this request, please indicate.
Thank you.
July 1, 2019, 4:55pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————————————————-
Please clarify exactly what it is that you are looking for because I am unable to determine that at this time.
Joy A Collura; “Crew Time Reports, Fire Time Reports, Resource Orders”
Also, I would like to kindly remind you that the Prescott Fire Department does not have a GMHS alumni roster.
Joy A Collura; “That was why I specifically added the names since you did not have an alumni roster and those names are included in the request. Thank you and Best Regards, Joy A Collura”
July 3, 2019, 10:13pm by the requester
———————————-
INSERT NOTE- I do have the prior GMHS roster from other records and sources yet it bewilders me always that the City of Prescott more than once have stated in over six years they do not have a GMHS alumni roster. What???? Really???? In one Records Request someone did not even REDACT where they should have…yeah it came off either they rushed to complete the request or they wanted me to know…
———————————–
Part of this request:
– an index of all requests I have made to date with Prescott and reason it is considered sealed or unpublished.
Any and all records with the names Crew 7, Granite Mountain Crew 7, IA CrewType 2 IA Crew 7, GM Type 2 IA Crew 7, any Type 2 IA tied to the city of Prescott, Station 7, and Marty Cole’s entire record(s) and master record and red cards and certifications and workcontinue on tomens comp. and any records or notes showing his tie to crew 7.
defining records to ensure to be including:
any records from the financial department that Prescott has on this crew,
Applications
Crew Time Reports,
Fire Time Reports
Red Cards
Master Records
Certifications
and all worksmens compensations
———————————-
Continue on to read and reply to your post…keep in mind…in a few days I will be unavailable after that for awhile so this is my time to reply yet I also am having a mother of a time passing some stones…the pain is off the charts…I have drank soooo much lemons and celery and cucumbers and fresh mint…
That’s a pretty expansive request. They SHOULD have been able to fulfill it by now, but they might claim they need more time… especially since some of those ‘clarifications’ are only dated 11 to 12 days ago ( July 1 July 3, etc. ).
Looks like they drug their feet since April… but now they might claim they need more time now that your request is ‘clarified’.
Requesting employee time sheets ( especially for contract work like jobbing out on fires ) should NOT be considered the same as requesting the person’s actual ‘personnel’ file… but they might pull some bullshit on you and try to pretend it is.
It’s still doubtful, however, that the time sheets alone would tell you what any particular FF was actually DOING… and/or WHERE… on any particular incident. That’s the kind of thing that usually only appears in ‘Unit Logs’ and whatnot.
I believe Conrad Jackson became the one who, shortly after the deployment on Sunday, was tasked with getting 11-12 Prescott Firefighters down to Yarnell for the sole purpose of participating in the body removal / honor guard the next morning.
So those might be some of the ’11-12 PNF’ that ended up with ‘time sheets’ for Yarnell, as well.
WTKTT,
Check out this link for the mystery BLM Engine you are seeking from one of Joy]s DropBox links.
Joshua Hudson Yarnell Fire Investigation\Photos-Video\ASFD Photos
JOSHUA HUDSON ( https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOVzAdzHZqSEBexPyzfZvrILRGdQMHqTTGS4jzsvBgN0nqvgA-ZdVRRq79DSDSuwQ?key=cmNZVnRtYTZDM250aExURVdzOUhhWWNlS3hqeC1B )
I’m pretty sure it’s the first photo with the guy sitting on top of the Engine and the other one is the far left one under the panorama photo with the BLM Engine (facing the photographer) in front of the red Ponderosa Fire PU and the PFD pickup.
wtktt said:
So.. are you ‘hinting’ ( again ) that you have some kind of ‘secret’ information about this BLM-E1660 Engine?
Again… the standard ‘followu-up’ question would be…
What has to happen before you can just tell us what you know?
MY REPLY:
No. I just at times wish we could spend a few hours in person bouncing back information so we can move ahead versus stagnant … again I live here … I am probably at this point the most requested for records on this fire all over the agencies … I also know some areas I did not want to the light in recent weeks yet it happened but it really got me down but it is what it is …but no secrets … I mean why is it you have a way to source stuff so super quick and are well organized and so you got your “shit together on organization” but I am holding “secrets” ??? huh ?
– yes there is areas I do know more and NO I am not saying it is a pact until I pass on like Moser stated but yes I am documenting this “tight” so when it does get to the light – there is no way to nay say the data…do you get that?
I am not shady and I am not a secret holder yet there is information working its way to the front…simple as that. You are unnamed to the world –
My full name is out there and I live here- you at any time can wash your hands of this and no one knows who you ever were – they will always know I am the girl who threw words out saying soon this or that yet I have offered more than any other eyewitness on any Wildland Fire Tragedy and I am not looking to be recognized – Those men should be alive and some have greed and keep working the gravy train when they should speak up…
I call you the “Data Scientist” …
Considering the contentious issues in discussion on IM in general, and especially here lately, this is a timely short Farnam Street article titled: The Difference Between Open-Minded and Closed-Minded People The author accurately claims it takes a mere six minutes to read. Indulge yourself …
The author cites the book “Principles” by Ray Dalio, self-made billionaire and founder of the largest hedge fund in the world. He posits seven powerful ways you can tell the difference between open and close minded..
“The ability to change your mind is a superpower.
1. Challenging Ideas – Closed-minded people don’t want their ideas challenged. They are typically frustrated that they can’t get the other person to agree with them instead of curious as to why the other person disagrees.
2. Statements vs. Questions – Closed-minded people are more likely to make statements than ask questions.
4. I Might Be Wrong, But … – Closed-minded people say things like “I could be wrong … but here’s my opinion.”
5. Just Shut Up – “Closed-minded people block others from speaking.”
6. Only One Sperm Gets In – Closed-minded people have trouble holding two thoughts simultaneously in their minds.
7. Humble Pie – Closed-minded people lack a deep sense of humility.
( https://fs.blog/2017/09/open-closed-minded/ )
**
** HOW MANY VIDEOS? ( REDUX )
Things got a little messy in this thread from yesterday, so this is just a quick summary of the RESULTS from that thread.
Joy Collura has CONFIRMED that the video ‘Downhillndirect’ saw, and had in his possession for a while, is NOT the same video that she and Sonny saw at the Yarnell Library.
Joy speaks in riddles a LOT… but when she unequivocally states something to be TRUE… you can almost always take that to the bank.
Maybe we will eventually discover HOW she knows that the two videos are NOT the same… but for the moment that wasn’t the question at hand.
It was simply HOW MANY ‘burnout’ videos may or may not exist, and were ALL ‘removed’ from public view by ( at this point ) still unknown persons.
So for now… the answer to that question is TWO.
Still not clear if Woodsman MAY have seen the same video that ‘Downhillndirect’ saw… or whether he saw the same ‘Shrine/Waltraud’ one that Joy and Sonny and Norb and others did… or whether Woodsman MAY have actually seen yet ANOTHER ‘burnout’ video altogether.
The byproduct of knowing how many ‘burnout’ videos may have been viewed is the chance to come up with an actual ENGINE COUNT.
Joy insists that the Shrine/Waltraud video had TWO Engines in it. She doesn’t remember the SIZE or the COLOR ( Type 3 versus Type 6 or FED colors versus other colors )… but in that video the 2 FFs with torches and the 2 engines were definitely coming TOWARDS the camera.
Still not clear exactly how many engines might actually have been visible in this ‘other’ video that ‘Downhillndirect’ ( and Woodsman? ) saw… but DND has already given an Engine Count of 3 for whatever that operation was, somewhere other than the Shrine Youth Camp.
So that makes FIVE ENGINES and FIVE CREWS potentially involved, at this point.
That’s a LOT of people.
Wtktt said:
So that makes FIVE ENGINES and FIVE CREWS potentially involved, at this point.
MY REPLY:
Just to clarify-
do you mean five engine crews – three to four people each engine
or do you mean hotshot crews –
or Type 2IA or hand crew?
I personally saw engines and two people using a drip torch-
Sonny can answer for himself-
I have heard fire operation accounts spread out on the spur roads since July 2013-
I am just trying to bridge the data so it does not come out like a riddle
because I had to meet one guy because another guy had him in Sesame but he says he was in Miner Camp areas so only time or their photos will tell the true stories
I meant that if FIVE Engines were involved, then that automatically means FIVE ‘Engine Crews’ were involved.
How many ‘ground crews’ ( if any ) might have also been involved remains a mystery.
Type 3 Engines can actually have more than 4 Crew Members.
They are big enough for extra crew members to be onboard.
And once again… since you are ‘hinting’ again… you know I just have to ask…
WHO are you talking about with regards to whether he was in Sesame or Miner’s Camp Road?
I don’t reall expect an answer… but you know me.
If you are going to keep giving us just ‘hints’ about things… I’m going to keep asking if we can actually KNOW what/who you are talking about.
WHO are you talking about with regards to whether he was in Sesame or Miner’s Camp Road?
He was on an Fire Engine –
I am not laughing
Same fella we mentioned yesterday
So when I heard someone tell me this guy’s account – it came off sounding like Sesame to Shrine area but talking to the guy direct he sounded more like Miner’s Camp Road and so one of those one says this and the first hand says that-
maybe some day
There has to be one good egg out there
Yeah, keep the questions and challenges
People have to know that is the only way to piece this out-
We have to either be all in
or try and get what we can to piece it all out…
There has to be one good egg out there in the FIRST HAND accounts to clarify-
Still not sure who you are talking about.
Are you possible referring to either Matthew Jackson and/or ConConrad Jackson ( full name Eric Conrad Jackson )?
They are the two Prescott Firefighters who came down to Yarnell on Sunday, June30, 2013 with the Prescott Structure Protection Trailer.
Unit Logs ( multiple ) all place them in the Miner’s Camp Road area, setting up sprinkler systems… but there have always been rumors they MAY have been sighted down in the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area close to the time of the deployment.
Neither of them were ever interviewed by any investigators with regards to what they were actually doing, or what they may have seen/heard that day.
From Structure Group 2 TFLD Todd Foster’s ( typed ) Unit Log…
————————————————————————-
Initial resources on line prior to my arrival:
AZ-TNF Engine 58 ( FEDERAL – USFS – Type 3 ):
Working on Structure prep at Double Bar A Ranch.
BLM E3665 ( FEDERAL – Type 3 ):
Working on Structure prep at Double Bar A Ranch.
BLM E1660 ( FEDERAL – Type 6 ):
Release at approx 1030 after scouting Model Creek Road.
They were going on 30+ hours, so I sent them in to ICP for rest.
Assigned resources:
( snip )
Prescott FD Sprinkler trailer: Assigned to most southern residence on Miner’s Camp Road with Rio Verde E441. Tasked
to set up sprinklers at residence and then prepare additional houses when identified.
————————————————————————
SIDENOTE: There has always been a ‘mystery’ surrounding the FEDERAL BLM-E1660 Type 6 Engine mentioned in Todd Foster’s Unit Log.
That’s the BLM engine that was actually in Yarnell the day BEFORE, Saturday, June 29, 2013 and under Russ Shumate’s command.
It remained ‘on duty’ overnight and they really were pushing +30 hours on Sunday morning when then assigned to be working with Darrell Willis’ Structure Group 2 up in Peeples Valley.
TFLD Todd Foster really did ‘release’ them back to the Model Creek School ICP for REST late morning on Sunday, June 30… but here’s the mystery…
In all of the TONS of photographs that are available of the ICP pretty much all day long on Sunday… this BLME-1660 Type 6 engine never shows up in ANY of them, at ANY time.
So there is still no ‘proof’ that this FED engine actually DID end up at the ICP that day.
Where did it go… and where was it ( really ) later in the afternoon, close to the time of deployment?
In one of his posts that has actually made it to the forum, Downhillndirect said something interesting with regards to someone who might have been ‘awake for 48 hours’…
Downhillndirect said…
“I will not name the brave man that was ordered to fire the well known roads by a non-existent Div Supe after 48 hours of sleep deprivation.”
If FED BLM Engine E-1660 really didn’t go to the ICP, but instead ended up down in Yarnell… then that crew WOULD have been approaching ’48 hours of sleep deprivation’ just prior to ‘blowup’ down there in Yarnell.
Also… the first part of that statement seems to imply that the person who gave the ‘firing orders’ was none other than DIVS-Z Rance Marquez.
That is, of course, unless his reference to ‘sleep deprivation’ was meant to describe the ‘Non-existent Div Supe’ versus describing the person(s) being given the firing order.
Last time I post until I feel the shitty tone and sarcasm subside. Try fielding a half a dozen phone calls from widows and people working on Yarnell Hill 6/30/13. I just returned home from a 14 day trip myself. I lost one of the best friends a man could have.
The video I am referring to was shot by a hybrid friend on the east side of BSR. He sent it to me to confirm he wasn’t crazy. I had it electronically for a little while before the SAIT team caught on that he sent it from work to a few of us. I was made to destroy my copy and shut up, Fuck that. That video has most of what you all are looking for.
The burn I was told about was by the engine supervisor at the time in 2013. If everyone is savvy with doctored redacted records then yo will find him. His words, not mine were “We haven’t slept in almost two days and as we headed out north to south, a guy stopped us and said “ Light the road on the way out, hold it up shy of the ranch”. Apparently there is video of this but it’s awful quality. I’m not a Fucking informant. I am a man that loves his family , friends and coworkers dead or alive. This isn’t a game nor does anyone deserve an award. This shit took friends away, time off of my life and has ruined relationships. The burden I pass on as I won’t watch current or retired FF’s pay for a huge F-up by multiple leaders. I miss Jess daily and know the other men charged with falsifying all the information you all get think we are sheep. I’m a fucking sheepdog and I won’t have anyone turn my words or fail to pass them along. If you think I’m wrong, I’ll send emails explaining why my comments were denied. I’m here to help make those that got away with murder answer for everything. Joy is a angel that didn’t ask for this neither did Sonny, please be easy on them. RTS is a well respected man that has no fear to get truth.
As far as other videos, I could care less, you can sway a million people in 6 years. Cougar is a good man as well as a few others made to be pawns.
I will never give direct names but I will give enough for the “Twlvw angry men. iM ,put it together. Instead of calling me an informant how about building trust first? I will answer what I know without putting friends or myself on welfare. I don’t look at IM everyday so please be patient. BTW my username is a purposeful nam, spelled incorrectly to challenge those that have really studied fatalities,
DND,
Thank you for coming back around and clarifying for us about the video and some more of the firing operation. Thanks for posting from the heart. It sounds like you’ve been put through the ringer a few times from not only the BS problems with posting and all but also with a confusingly f**ked up mixture of welcome and sarcasm by your “fellow” IM posters and other influentials. I don’t get it and I don’t like it.
Like you, most of us are here to help make those that got away with murder answer for everything. It’s been a long row to hoe and every bit of new information helps.
Keep up the good fight My Friend and stay the course in spite of the onslaught of BS from all angles. Remember that it’s Ephesians 6:12 that we’ve been dealing with here from the start – more so now that we’re getting closer to the truth all the time.
Daily, I think about and pray for you and the 19 GMHS families, friends, and loved ones and those of us seeking the truth about the June 30, 2013, YH Fire.
Looking forward to your next post
Reply to Downhillndirect ( DND ) post
on July 14, 2019 at 7:18 pm
>> DND said…
>>
>> I lost one of the best friends a man could have.
Again… I am very, very sorry for your loss.
>> DND said…
>>
>> I will never give direct names but I will
>> give enough for the “Twlvw angry
>> men. iM ,put it together. Instead of
>> calling me an informant how about
>> building trust first? I will answer what I
>> know without putting friends or myself
>> on welfare.
Understood.
Trust works both ways.
So let’s keep this very simple and go back to square one.
Do you know what TIME this person was told to “Light the road on the way out, hold it up shy of the ranch”?
As I have already said… it’s OKAY if you don’t know, or if that’s one of the things you don’t WANT to reveal.
It really is.
But it’s still important to know, if that is possible.
wtkkt said:
Are you possible referring to either Matthew Jackson and/or Conrad Jackson ( full name Eric Conrad Jackson )?
MY REPLY:
No, but that is another request still pending and how long do I have to wait to get his???
Yet that engine is a focus to me-
He is also a drafted post of mine awaiting records to fact check,
———————————————–
wtktt said: but there have always been rumors they MAY have been sighted down in the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area close to the time of the deployment.
MY REPLY: I heard that same rumor in 2014, 2016, 2018 and have had in on my last time I heard it – my request just sits there waiting to be filled…one of Prescott finest also was to be there who I cannot yet share on but I do have requests in-
————————————————–
wtktt said: Neither of them were ever interviewed by any investigators with regards to what they were actually doing, or what they may have seen/heard that day.
MY REPLY: exactly and he has been on my radar since 2014 because of photos I have of him after the fire and his face – the face says so much — and my request is in and I think I notified him too – if not Tom Cooley – Troy was also mentioned by some so yeah it has always been odd how come they never made it to the report yet it is rumored investigator(s) did reach them…and some had their footage taken so yeah there is a swiss cheese going on in that local area yet I have locals in Prescott and the FD helping me work on that because they have grown tired to seeing the loyalty I have shown to help the Fire Industry when I was never involved in any manner to this Industry yet the ones who should be talking are not so I am do have someone locally on that area too-
——————————————————–
wtktt said:
TFLD Todd Foster really did ‘release’ them back to the Model Creek School ICP for REST late morning on Sunday, June 30… but here’s the mystery…
MY REPLY: can you help me here – was it more like 10:55am this time-
———————————————————-
wtktt said: In all of the TONS of photographs that are available of the ICP pretty much all day long on Sunday… this BLME-1660 Type 6 engine never shows up in ANY of them, at ANY time.
MY REPLY: now I wish we lived near and could speak in person…what a shame…yet I will state I noted that too…
——————————————————–
wtktt said: Downhillndirect said…
“I will not name the brave man that was ordered to fire the well known roads by a non-existent Div Supe after 48 hours of sleep deprivation.”
MY REPLY: I know that answer but it is NOT BLM E1660 and not my position to clarify WHO but I do know who – I interviewed that person. Maybe DHD can clarify too or give more details to this area.
—————————————
wtktt said: Also… the first part of that statement seems to imply that the person who gave the ‘firing orders’ was none other than DIVS-Z Rance Marquez.
MY REPLY: what happened to Cougan Carothers? I am confused – wasn’t he the overhead hybrid on that fire?
See ‘Reply’ with answers to your questions posted above as a new parent comment…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-480191
Can we agree I have grown a tiny bit over the years – what one took on as riddles were actually “Notepad Timestamps” for self yet I am stating here if I fail in communicating I am here to let you know here or back channel where I am at – do you agree?
I will strive to be a better at communication
and really it is the key thing that failed on June 30, 2013 – clear communications
It is the key to success in any area of life
Wtktt made a good point-
Today I will be repetitive and tell myself:
Breathing in deeply and exhaling slowly…
“I will let words flow effortlessly from my mouth…I am relaxed…I will become extremely articulate…I enjoy this site…People love this site…We are an amazing diverse group of people who always stick up for our beliefs…I know exactly what needs to be said before it is said…Our words will have a wonderful effect on the Wildland Industry…I will always speak calm and clear from this day forward…I enjoy all of you…My throat is relaxed and calm while speaking to you from this day forward…I will think before allowing emotions to control my thoughts…People love IM…Let us enhance and encourage anothers talents…”
RTS says it takes 21 days to change…
I think it’s just a typing thing. It’s like you try to fit too many thoughts into the same sentence, or something.
It just ends up making what you are TRYING to say VERY hard to follow, sometimes.
Yes, sir. Mr Gary Olson has a funny label of “Yoda” for some of my IM contributions.
I am that kid where Constitution Elementary School in 1977 called my parents on me being retarded and when my towering tall father walked into the principal’s office where they had swat boards hanging on the wall and they began to have discussions and my father than learned I was not retarded but in fact he was called in for me being tardy –
Wtktt, I had a serious problem to be indoors – I would play on the playground and do everything else but go to class in kindergarten. The structure part of living is where Sonny and I always were at ease in knowing another…I never took time out to worry about sentences over time, know how and when I apply myself I know it just lazy yet the thunderstorm has reached – logging off but yes I agree a lot has to do with the verbiage and how I place it out…
I am as guilty as anyone of not knowing where the PERIOD or SEMI-COLON or even the COMMA keys are on the keyboard, sometimes.
Trying to cram a number of thoughts into one sentence can happy to anyone… especially when you are typing as fast as you can.
But in answer to your “poll” question above…
Yes… I would say that you have gotten “better”, over time.
Some of your early posts were just these amazing, never-ending stream-of-consciousness things where you never seemed to “come to the point” at all. They were REALLY hard to read.
Whoops. Typo up above. ( See… typing too fast! )
Sentence above should have read like this…
“Trying to cram a number of thoughts into one sentence can HAPPEN to anyone… especially when you are typing as fast as you can.”
Are there no photos of 1660 speaks for investigations where when something is obviously hidden then it says pay attention to what is not said–many photos of 1665 yet nothing of substance concerning 1660? But those would be as the videos–ordered to be destroyed if you have them.
Yes, you do not want to feed into a personal confrontational situation that ought to be kept on email or phone level in my opinion If you are wise you see what is going on while the participants may not. It creates a negative atmosphere that detracts from the essence of the common goal and its only result is to offend or deter those with vital information. That is unless the person giving the important information is one to understand or otherwise is determined to see the right thing through. It would require some battle scars to maintain equanimity in those circumstances. Continue the helps–you have the scars.
There is a book out on the 21 day change thing.–shot in the back with a 12 guage will do it instantly
https://photos.app.goo.gl/M6j87bKvYDjjRRF1A
Sonny- this is the files you asked me to keep loading…but I have to get offline soon so please go back to Roy Hall’s PIO at another time too—it is a large file.
there is a few pics of us in evacuation in his set of photos – so now start to look Sonny at the file and see if ANY faces LOOK familiar and let me know back channel
and your time with photographer Michael Chow too with you Sonny
That is a good one–Michael Chow was the one taking the camera back after he had mounted it on my car as we entered. Was it Dwight that was in charge of the policing thing that was going to arrest me?
I realize these police are just doing what Fema had ordered them to do and no personal grudge there but he was breaking my and Mr. Chow’s first amendment rights. They do not value rights in this country but in this instance you can know by the time we had a week in the gym waiting to get back in, the narrative had already been made and the cover up was in progress. The cover up was orchestrated from the top dogs down. So I can understand people worried about their jobs, security, and desire not to get involved in bringing the truth forward.
I do not remember what media Michael worked for–but he had some that did not want him anywhere the fire fighting community. Remember, Joanna of the Prescott news complaining about his persistence in getting into the Doce area. The honchos work hard to keep media out of any area concerning wild fires.
But he was not the only one held at bay–If you remember there were half a dozen media people that came up and were watching as Dwight was detaining me and also cheering that I would support them. When the press is kept from situations like this and controlled then you have a system operating toward totalitarianism.
The sad thing at Yarnell was that people so it was told wanted to allow that type situation. I am not sure if that was propaganda or true–likely they had set it up that way since if the press got in there then they would have been asking questions–the problem for them was to get their stories solid before the press came in.
If you remember for the longest time you had to have a big green card in your window to get into Yarnell and that was issued and checked by the guards at each end of the town. If you were not a resident you had to drive miles around on a rough dirt road to get to work.
There was absolutely no reason for that–the place was crawling with police and 89 went straight through town–but they said there might be looting. Shit the only looting was when a couple guys stayed back during the fire and supposedly helped people get out, but they were caught.
Every excuse was made to keep press or anyone that might want to know out.
But you know, it might have been a good thing since it kept people out of the poisons they had slurried all around the town. Well in my opinion it is never a good thing to allow government or anyone to skirt the first amendment. That was martial law enforced unjustly.
These are my opinions–and the time frame was months before finally they allowed people through Yarnell–how you see the situation was controlled and information to the press limited so harshly.
These are my opinions but I can tell you many fell for the snow job they were given. Joy would have the exact amount of time the powers that were held the town hostage and kept information to outsiders to a standstill.
Sonny said: Was it Dwight that was in charge of the policing thing that was going to arrest me?
MY REPLY: Dwight D’Evelyn
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 13, 2019 at 8:01 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/M6j87bKvYDjjRRF1A
>>
>> Sonny- this is the files you asked me to keep loading…but I
>> have to get offline soon so please go back to Roy Hall’s PIO
>> at another time too—it is a large file.
You’ve been complaining about your ‘time’ and your ‘workload’ today… so I thought I would just point out… you know all of the photos you have been uploading to Google all day are just DUPLICATES of what is already in BOTH of the SAIT and ADOSH evidence folders, right?
Those even have all the original time/date stamps preserved, whereas your uploads today seem to be ‘erasing’ that information.
I’m not trying to be snooty.
I’m genuinely trying to save you from wasting your time.
Followup…
Did you actually just get ‘duplicates’ of these online evidence folders as some of the responses to some of your FOIA’s?
If that’s the case… my suggestion would be to upload something IAOI it is NOT already in one of the known public evidence folders.
Your time is VALUABLE… and shouldn’t be wasted just DUPLICATING tons of shit that is already available.
Example…
The PIO folder is in the ADOSH ‘Photos and Videos’ folder… not the SAIT one.
The Mike Reichling Folder ( in ADOSH Dropbox )…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABwGH4NMHO-b1B9qkF4Ki51a/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Mike%20Reichling?dl=0
I have no clue where these dropbox links are cored to
IM? ADOSH? SAIT SAIR?
I was just showing Sonny but thank you because I looked there and I can compare what I have and see if I have more or less
thank you
We already proved you said ERIC SHANE MARSH sat in the folders yet as I began to upload we discovered not only did I have more yet it lays there with fact check information that his file was not pure from so many angles and that never was fact checked proper from the original investigators.
Thank you.
Both Sonny and I are not alert to all kinds of drop box files you seem to kindly show us all here.
I know you said it is on ADOSH dropbox but is that on a main site or archival-
Some of us are not pc savvy…
wtkktsaid:
The PIO folder is in the ADOSH ‘Photos and Videos’ folder… not the SAIT one.
The Mike Reichling Folder ( in ADOSH Dropbox )…
MY REPLY:
I received Reichling’s data from Bill Boyd (Public Records Officer) -Department of Forestry and Fire Management – the others did not have a return for me so maybe that is because there is a public area but I guess I have to learn RTS’ GTS (Google that shit) method…
I rely on Google Alerts not actually going and looking…
Yes, you did save me time…
Sonny, I will upload that Sesame to Shrine hike for you we took with ADOSH Brett Steurer and Bruce Hanna
https://photos.app.goo.gl/j3ZvwLfyp33riaDn7
Our ADOSH hike Sonny – it shows some of the Sesame to Shrine areas aftermaths on 9-18-13-
Remember people have to know the struggles ADOSH had not just with Touhy-
if I find the letter Sonny I will add it here so it should answer the Pfingston Podcast someone asked me…
https://photos.app.goo.gl/w5pwRgFRs2SwCvwG8
Sonny,
ADOSH YHF Public Records 1-16-14\ADOSH Yarnell Fire Investigation\Photos-Video\BLM NIFC Photos [added building names with paint]
Oy vey….
Alright. Downhillndirect: how about this – tell me what you saw in the video that the State goons took down. Give me a detailed description. No names just facts. I think it would be beneficial to at least have this ” out there ” for now. We’re here. Thanks!
I’m now being told on a ‘back channel’ that there are ongoing technical problems with regards to any new posters ( this ‘Downhillndirect’ guy included ) being able to consistently get their postings to appear on this forum.
In DND’s specific case, there are ( apparently ) any number of messages/responses already sitting invisible and caught in ‘moderation’… and the only person who can do anything about it won’t be able to until sometime next week.
So it’s ( currently ) a very confusing situation and requires us to be patient.
Maybe it will all work out.
For some reason… .DND was able to post today with tech specs about Type 3 Engines… but others recent posts somehow got ‘stuck’ in moderation.
Go figure.
Maybe the “Downhillndirect” handle was a bad choice.
It’s really easy to mis-type/mis-spell that… like missing one of the ‘;l’s or leaving out the ‘n’.
One missing letter and it looks to the system like a completely different ‘person’ who now has to be approved by the moderator.
Even case counts. Same deal if you it’s just a lowercase ‘d’.
Good suggestion WTKTT –but with my computer on Linux Mint, once I make a correct post I need only the first letter like C for charlie and the whole name comes up and I can click on without typing it in–same with my email address–c brings the whole thing up. Captcha I sometimes forget to refresh but since leaving Windows behind my post losses went way down.
Depends on the browser. A lot of people also have their browser set to ‘clear cache’ when they exit… which means when they come back to places like this… they DO have to fully retype names/passwords, etc.
It just takes some getting used to… and always remembering that both inputs are CASE sensitive. You may have thought you typed in the right thing but then a ‘post’ goes off into moderation.
OK I did not know that Woodsman–very true each situation is different.
I have had that many times happen, Wtktt.
You are reading into way too much…
He answered the posts and it just sits in moderation
We get the frustrations-
yet the way you are making it out –
seems you are pointing out how come he was able on one and not another
That has happened to us all probably huh on posting where some take and others do not-
may it be captcha or a missing something…
maybe he was mindful and focused to the NAME and EMAIL yet your continued pointing out –
Why?
Many here welcome DHD and we all know the frustrations of IM may it be content or captcha…
Of course DHD is welcome here.
His very first post ( that finally made it out of moderation ) was met with
many ‘Welcome!’ messages.
You are now reading way too much into MY post.
It might not be whether someone is entering things correctly or not.
Whatever technical issues have been going on to throw posts into moderation might be more complicated and more random than that.
It happens.
We have shared the concern to JD yet he is unavailable at this point so just have to wait
And the patience works both ways. I hope people who are caught up in these issues also don’t believe that anything nefarious is going on regarding JD’s side, or that they are being intentionally ‘erased’.
It is ( apparently ) just technical issues.
I wonder if it had anything to do with suddenly switching ‘Chapters’ from 27 to 28 at pretty much the same moment a number of ‘new’ people were trying to post?
We’ve never seen that before during a Chapter shift… but I suppose it’s possible.
I have been erased enough I was ready to think that the Irish Gods were fucking with my computer. The last thing you want to do is accuse the Gods–but they had these damn things long before we did and now that our computer inventors made them the Gods are getting some laughs.
Truth is Gates is not so damn smart in the way he has things set up with all his hired computer specialists–he is however damn smart in how to set it up to make money. Windows was doing a lot of erasing for me and just out of nowhere the thing I had written would go into cyberspace with no sense to me.
Hasn’t been an issue on Linux since I am back to it but I am still copy/pasting to email at times. This way in case there are nefarious culprits to blame then they are screwed in my case. I have pasted a post several times when it was lost until it finally went on to IM.
I did post this in case some have gotten discouraged and I am certain a few in the past had. I will copy and if this does not go on I will either re paste or go paste to an email to me so I do not have to do a re write. And if you think about it, many of my posts are on the thin line of possible and not well digested by some.
Test
Test Reply
We see you Bill-
Bill is testing to see if things will work. Good idea.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-480108
we are not done there
I am trying to find so many different files and when I find one I see something else for Sonny so this is not done- I have that interview of his times and locations but I am not organized like you—
So you are saying that there IS a question as to the whereabouts of Tonto National Forest Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58 between 3:30 and 4:30 PM on June 30, 2013?
That it was NOT up there on Model Creek Road doing burnouts there during that time?
That would involve the doctoring of MULTIPLE Unit Logs AND a video…. but hey… I’m game.
Show us what you got.
what is wrong with you-
putting words out there I never said or questions
and adding this horseshit when I stated we are not done there:
So you are saying that there IS a question as to the whereabouts of Tonto National Forest Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58 between 3:30 and 4:30 PM on June 30, 2013?
That it was NOT up there on Model Creek Road doing burnouts there during that time?
That would involve the doctoring of MULTIPLE Unit Logs AND a video…. but hey… I’m game.
Show us what you got.
I just got done telling you I am not organized and doing something else and as I go through areas I am uploading and it is obvious I am actually taking time to upload to IM so “chill out”- why are you behaving like this like I have to show anyone anything – I have a thunderstorm brewing in weather-wise so may log off shortly and I am trying to go and upload but if you want specifics you will have to wait until I get to that area or go request them yourself but shit even ill I am trying because Sonny asked me to come here- I do not understand how you think I am AI 9000 – I am one person and I am ill so why the huff puff bullshit…like “show us what you got.” ????
Get your ass here and help me…help me organize the stuff…I am not understanding why you push push push with questions and if we ignore them then we ain’t answering so the world catches it but I am answering…I am not organized and I cannot pull rabbits out of hats either…
I never said anything other than NO IT IS NOT DONE that topic because I have yet to produce that interview notes so you cannot lock into your own mentality that what you got is what it is…that was all…
Why would you say “NO IT IS NOT DONE” ( the issue that was under discussion about AZ-TNF-E58 ) unless you were going to take issue with something?
WHAT “Is Not Done”?
The whereabouts of it?
WHO was on it? That is already in the IAP’s. Is that info wrong?
As I have always been saying… if you have more on your plate than you can handle… then just start PUBLISHING some of this information you have received via these shotgun FOIAs and we can ALL help you go through it.
You are ALLOWED to do that.
Once that response information from any FOIA is in your hands… it has already been ‘sanitized’ according to any ‘exemptions’ that the law allows… and YOU are free to publish it.
I have today done just that for Sonny- links are below and working on Roy Hall’s PIO stuff right now and it is on 6 of 26 uploading so it is slow but I am trying to do that today because Sonny asked…but really I want to just elevate because my tummy is so swollen…and should just “pause” this entire area until well but slowly uploading today
I left two other comments about this today… but in case you didn’t see them…
You’ve been complaining about your ‘time’ and ‘workload’ and ‘slow uploads’ today… .but you realize that everything you’ve been uploading to Google Photos today is ALREADY in the SAIT and ADOSH evidence folders, right?
And those copies still have the original time/date stamps, whereas your uploads to Google seem to be REMOVING that information.
What… did they just send you copies of these same existing folders as actual ‘responses’ to some of your FOIAs?
If there happen to be any NEW photos in them… that happen to NOT already be in the existing online evidence folders… my suggestion would be to just upload THOSE photos… but even then… only if they represent any ‘new’ information.
I am not trying to be snooty.
If you feel ‘time crunched’… I am genuinely trying to help you stop WASTING your time.
Example…
The PIO folder is in the ADOSH ‘Photos and Videos’ folder… not the SAIT one.
The Mike Reichling Folder ( in ADOSH Dropbox )…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABwGH4NMHO-b1B9qkF4Ki51a/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Mike%20Reichling?dl=0
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 13, 2019 at 4:33 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> we are not done there
>>
>> I am trying to find so many different files and when I find one I see
>> something else for Sonny so this is not done- I have that interview
>> of his times and locations but I am not organized like you—
Okay… let me back up the bus on this one.
All I was really asking was for some clarification.
You said…
“”I have that interview of his times and locations but I am not organized like you—”
WHO are you talking about?
The ENGB ( Crew Boss ) for Tonto National Forest Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58?
If so… are you saying you know you have some kind of documented ‘interview’ with him… somewhere in your array of documents… but you haven’t had time to actually READ it and/or can’t recall what is in it?
It’s not a house on fire… but I just wanted to know what you were trying to say.
Until there is evidence to the contrary… we’ll just have to keep assuming that Federal Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58 really WAS up on Model Creek Road from 3:30 to 4:30 PM, as the unit logs and photographic evidence appear to show.
I have paused the Roy Hall looking for this area…so maybe I will find it because that interview was this year so I am looking through 2019 but it is not in files – it is a mess….nd it is not labelled so it will say DC09992991 and I have to listen to each one to hear if it is the one and again I rarely get to my FOIA storage area but due to hot weather and weather I thought perfect day to do this but I never keep data near me so it is never easy to get to for me…
Thanks for the clarification.
If/when you find some evidence that might contradict what is currently known about Tonto National Forest Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58…. just find a way to get that information out into the light of day, please.
The EXACT location/whereabouts of ALL Federal Engines that had ANY connection to the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire is now VERY important to know.
**
** HOW MANY VIDEOS?
>> On July 3, 2019 at 9:20 pm, Woodsman said…
>>
>> Downhillndirect,
>>
>> That description of the Fed type 3 engines burning out on the YouTube video
>> matches my exact recollection!
>>
>> That’s exactly what I saw in those videos. Torches walking and fed type 3s
>> bumping along a recently graded firebreak.
If we never hear from ‘Downhillndirect’ again… there’s actually now a NEW ‘mystery’ regarding how MANY videos we might be talking about.
Here’s a quick ‘summary’ of basically everything ‘Downhillndirect’ actually had to say about the video HE says HE saw ( and actually had in his possession for a while )…
———————————————————————————————————–
On July 3, 2019 at 7:19 pm, Downhillndirect said…
I can’t say where I’m from but I can share what I know being in an inner circle of people that either showed me personal video or what was told to me by those that actually did the Firing.
The proof of the firing show was all over YouTube and I haven’t looked in a while.
———————————————————————————————————–
On July 3, 2019 at 9:07 pm, Downhillndirect said…
There was a video with audio but it was swiped by the state goons days after it was sent out.
———————————————————————————————————–
On July 4, 2019 at 6:50 pm, Downhillndirect said…
There is a video that was sent to me not long after the fatalities..
The sender knew that it had everything to do with why 19 men or incinerated about this powder Springs Ranch. That video was tracked down after it was sent and multiple higher level investigators stop Ed nothing to make sure disappeared. I saw it and listened to it and wished I would’ve made a copy but since The powers at be stoped at nothing to get rid of it I deleted what was given to me not knowing what I had. I know that a good friend still has that video and I know it’s going to take a lot of convincing and the fact that he may lose his career to show the world that there was no downtime in the radio and there was is a lot more sad than what people think, believe me.
———————————————————————————————————-
So that’s pretty much all he had to say ( specifically ) about the VIDEO that HE saw.
He never actually described exactly what he SAW in THAT VIDEO.
Woodsman…
YOU are the one who then asked him 5 questions… ONE of which was, of course just an attempt to CLARIFY whether the video he was saying he has seen is the same one that YOU ( and many others ) have seen…
———————————————————————————————————-
On July 4, 2019 at 7:25 pm, Woodsman said…
Thanks, Downhillndirect. You are at home here and I support what you’re doing.
( snip )
2. The video you received shortly after the fatalities occurred, that you say gives clear indication that it led to the tragedy: was this the same video that was uploaded to YouTube of the the federal type 3’s and drip torches that I remember seeing?
———————————————————————————————————-
But then you ALSO said…
———————————————————————————————————-
On July 3, 2019 at 9:20 pm, Woodsman said…
Downhillndirect,
That description of the Fed type 3 engines burning out on the YouTube video matches my exact recollection! That’s exactly what I saw in those videos. Torches walking and fed type 3s bumping along a recently graded firebreak.
———————————————————————————————————
So even though ‘Downhillndirect’ himself never actually ‘described’ the video he saw in that way ( at least not that specifically )… YOUR new description of what YOU remember seeing now feels like a ‘news flash’.
When we were discussing the ‘mysterious burnout video’ ( only one? ) at length not long ago, and just trying to get people who have seen it to ‘compare notes’… I don’t remember you being quite so specific, yourself, about seeing MULTIPLE ( more than 1 ) Type 3 FED Engines “bumping along a recently graded firebreak”… with ‘torches walking'”.
Forget ‘Downhillndirect’ for a moment, and anything he might have seen ( which we still don’t really know ).
Is that REALLY what YOU remember seeing in the video YOU saw?
All I am trying to do here is figure out how MANY videos we might NOW be talking about.
Maybe the one YOU saw wasn’t really the one Joy, Sonny and others saw ( shot near the Waltraud residence on Shrine Road ). That would account for you not ever being able to CONFIRM some of the same descriptions of THAT video that have emerged.
Maybe YOU actually saw the one that ‘Downhillndirect’ was just talking about, which is ANOTHER ( different ) ‘burnout’ video?
The more videos there might be… the greater the chances are that ONE of them is GOING to ‘surface’.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
JULY 13, 2019 AT 12:17 PM
**
** HOW MANY VIDEOS?
>> On July 3, 2019 at 9:20 pm, Woodsman said…
————————————-
There was on June 30, 2013 photos and videos that are not yet public taken from the Helms parcel, Boudler Springs Trail area, Deertrack area, Lakewood Drive, Hays Parcel, Double Bar A Area, S Miners Camp Rd Area,Dunlap’s Parcel, Model Creel School Area, ( 202-12-002 ) Maughan’s Parcel, Wassons parcel, Waltrauds parcel, State Land Parcel, so DHD and my knowing his account is a different account than Woodsman –
I think we all need to pause and remember sometimes it takes one time to digest it all in- I mean even Harold disappeared …
Still just wondering how MANY ‘burnout’ videos there might be.
Refresh my memory.
Did YOU see any ‘Type 3 Engines’ in the video YOU saw… or just FFs with drip-torches?
If you remember seeing ANY engines… what COLOR were they?
USFS = All aquamarine color
BLM – Neon yellow/green color
if you are asking me and Sonny that –
It was multiple engines but never paid it any mind to color of vehicle just multiple engines and 2 FFs is my account and it was on Shrine Road not Peeples Valley area or Sesame area…Sonny and I both evaluated that area fully to identify where long ago…that we knew was Shrine area – Waltraud…
Yes. A lot of effort was made to VERIFY exactly where that video you and Sonny saw was taken.
It still remains ‘confirmed’ that the video YOU ( and Sonny ) saw was right there near that rock wall by the Waltraud Property, just before the gate to the Youth Camp.
Unless something happens to undo all that… that will always remain the verified location of at least that ONE ‘burnout’ video.
But that still doesn’t sound like the video Woodsman has been descprbing and now ( possibly ) “Downhillndirect”.
These ‘multiple engines’ you are SURE you saw there on Shrine Road, near the Youth Camp…
I get that you might not remember the SIZE of them… or whether they were Type 3 or Type 6… but do you remember what DIRECTION they were facing?
In other words… were the FFs you saw in the video walking in FRONT of the engines, as everyone was advancing TOWARDS the camera…
Or were the FFs walking BEHIND the engines… and travelling AWAY from the camera?
Details like that are still going to matter when it comes to figuring out how MANY videos we might now be talking about.
But that still doesn’t sound like the video Woodsman has been describing and now ( possibly ) “Downhillndirect”. DHD is not the same as what we saw-
These ‘multiple engines’ you are SURE you saw there on Shrine Road, near the Youth Camp…
I get that you might not remember the SIZE of them… or whether they were Type 3 or Type 6… but do you remember what DIRECTION they were facing?
the wall was on left so they were coming out
In other words… were the FFs you saw in the video walking in FRONT of the engines, as everyone was advancing TOWARDS the camera…
towards camera
Or were the FFs walking BEHIND the engines… and travelling AWAY from the camera?
Details like that are still going to matter when it comes to figuring out how MANY videos we might now be talking about.
true
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 13, 2019 at 2:26 pm
>> Joy A. Collura stated…
>>
>> “Downhillndirect”. DHD is not the same as what we saw-
Okay. Tell me how you are so SURE of that… when he ( himself ) has not said a single word ( yet ) about what HE actually SAW in the video HE had access to?
wtktt- Okay. Tell me how you are so SURE of that… when he ( himself ) has not said a single word ( yet ) about what HE actually SAW in the video HE had access to?
My reply-
I am sure.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
July 13, 2019 at 3:34 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I am sure.
Yea… you already said that.
I’m all ears.
Tell me HOW you are so sure, when he hasn’t even said what he saw ( yet )?
wtktt said”
I’m all ears.
Tell me HOW you are so sure, when he hasn’t even said what he saw ( yet )?
my reply:
that is areas I have discussed off IM – there is a pending area but one person is in Paris so awaiting their return –
that is all at this time I will mention on topic but thank you for getting the questions out – if I can I share on here or behind but if I cannot due to “pending” then I lay low just like others –
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
July 13, 2019 at 4:29 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> that is areas I have discussed off
>> IM – there is a pending area but
>> one person is in Paris so awaiting
>> their return –
>>
>> that is all at this time I will mention
>> on topic but thank you for getting
>> the questions out – if I can I share
>> on here or behind but if I cannot
>> due to “pending” then I lay low just
>> like others –
Ah… okay… I thought it might be just another one of your ‘areas pending but still want everyone to know I know and can’t say but might say if/when, you know, other things I can’t say happen or not” things… but just on the off chance you COULD answer that simple question above… you KNOW I had to ask.
Happy hunting.
So far best I can tell DND is talking about the Sesame St Road after it turns from pavement to dirt and that is past the ordinarily locked gate since Sesame St dirt Road runs through private land. The distance makes sense that is what is being described–but we will just have to wait for positive proof on that. I now do believe that there was a burn in that area since that would be an effort to protect Yarnell–but specifically Glen Isla and the south side when burns would be toward either Peeples Valley or if toward the west and protecting the Helms Ranch as well.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s Unit Log has always been proof that SPGS1 Gary Cordes asked him ( and one other… who remains unidentified ) to “scout out an emergency dozer line to try and protect Glen Ilah”.
We were also able to determine that by the time Cory Ball delivered the Blue Ridge command vehicle with the trailer to the Ranch House Restaurant, and someone then drove him over to the Yarnell Fire Station in that white pickup to borrow that red ATV, and then Cory Ball tried to get back to the “dozer staging area” there where the pavement of Lakewood and Manzanita turns into the dirt road of Sesame Street… it was too late for him to make it back there.
He never got back to the ‘dozer staging area’ to even begin this ‘scout an emergency dozer line’ as ordered by SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
At least that’s what we CURRENTLY know.
Sounds like there might have been a lot more going on ( in that 4:15 PM timefreame ) than just Blue Ridge Hotshot and DOZB Cory Ball running around trying to find an ATV.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s Unit Log has always been proof that SPGS1 Gary Cordes asked him ( and one other… who remains unidentified
in 2019 Arizona Wildfire Academy during the Single Resource Boss Course, True Brown revealed to the class and I learned from one of the students at lunch time, that Will Trahin ( Forestry Tech Region 3 – Southwestern (Arizona, New Mexico), R3,Coconino NF,Mogollon Rim RD 928-477-5022 (phone) ) was the “quote” one other,,,
———————————–
Sounds like there might have been a lot more going on ( in that 4:15 PM timefreame ) than just Blue Ridge Hotshot and DOZB Cory Ball running around trying to find an ATV.
18 minutes before the fatalities is the time stamp I mentioned previously on here
Yes. Apparently Trahin was an HEQB/DOZB trainee that day and so they put him with Cory Ball when he became HEQB/DOZB for Paul Morin’s Yavapai County Dozer that morning.
Thanks for the reminder on that.
Will Trahin was a Blue Ridge Hotshot and his BROTHER was also on the Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew on June 30, 2013.
As far was is known… Will Trahin was never interviewed by anyone.
You said…
“18 minutes before the fatalities is the time stamp I mentioned previosuly on here”.
What.’event’ are you actually referring to there?
The moment Cory Ball got the order from Cordes?
The moment Cory Ball got to the Yarnell Fire Station?
The moment he realized he couldn’t make it back to the dozer staging area at the far end of Lakewood/Manzanita?
What happened “18 minutes before the fatalities”?
That would be 4:24 PM, if you are using the accepted time of 4:42 PM as the actual ‘fatalities’ moment.
I pulled his records… and yeah I know…when will it become public? it is just overwhelming and I am going thru the files as it is…then just do it…I will today and tomorrow keep uploading but then after that I will not be near my FOIA storage for a bit…
“18 minutes before the fatalities is the time stamp I mentioned previosuly on here”.
What.’event’ are you actually referring to there?
———————
I mentioned it on here
18 minutes before there was fire laid down … and then the tac channels went on and the “18 confirmed” …. I am not trying to redirect but I am wrapping up one part of pics for Sonny and it is already in recent chapters on IM…
Okay… I’m still confused, about what you are referring to.
By the way… you’ve been complaining today of your ‘time’ and ‘workload’… but you know that all these uploads you’ve been doing to Google today are just duplicates of what’s already in the SAIT and ADOSH folders, right?
And those originals still have the time/date information, whereas your Google uploads appear to be erasing that information.
I’m not trying to be snooty.
If you are in a ‘time’ crunch… I am genuinely trying to help you not WASTE your time.
>> Joy said…
>>
>> 18 minutes before there was fire laid down
18 minutes ‘before’ what?
Or am I not parsing that right?
Are you saying that there was no fire laid down until 4:24 PM… which would be 18 minutes before the accepted time of the ‘fatatlities’… which is 4:42 PM?
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> and then the tac channels went on and
>> the “18 confirmed”
That was almost TWO HOURS later.
Not ’18 minutes’.
I’m very confused.
Do you remember what ‘recent chapter’ you are talking about having talked about this ’18 minute’ event?
Was it the previous Chapter 27… or earlier?
thank you- I told Sonny I would go down my file and load it for him-
I kinda figured it may –
is it on IM?
Sonny, I might have what SAIT SAIR and ADOSH has but maybe more…I will keep looking…I know I ended up with a little more on ERIC SHANE MARSH we did discover so best to skim versus upload if that is ok Sonny?
I am sure the stuff is on IM somewhere-
and YES it did help because I want to focus my attention to some GMHS loved ones versus old history before I head out on to the East Coast…
thank you
The PIO folder is in the ADOSH ‘Photos and Videos’ folder… not the SAIT one.
The Mike Reichling Folder ( in ADOSH Dropbox )…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABwGH4NMHO-b1B9qkF4Ki51a/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Mike%20Reichling?dl=0
The more facts on IM the better the pros have to decipher the meaning and co ordinate events with whether they had anything to do with the 19 deaths. Times are so crucial in all this because if wind speeds and slope is known there can be a very close estimate of the velocity of the fire. Moving just 3600ft or even 5600 ft can be pretty damn quick if it is up slope and pushed by a wind or sucked in by a vacuum. The estimate Willis posted was 11 mph and even at that rate it would move l mile in about 5minutes–the time that I would guess they had to either deploy or run. So you can see that they were between a rock and a hard place and chose the hard place.
On that point Dr. Ted said too many men did not shed their tools and packs when in a situation like that where seconds can determine the difference between surviving and death. His many wild land fire death investigations gave him an edge for checking on reasons for these catastrophes–and of course you notice no one was anxious to hear his input on things at Yarnell concerning the killing of the GMHS crew.
If people only look at all the evidence to support the false report of the GMHS demise they would have to be either an imbecile or in on it. Just too much evidence pointing to that fact.
If you watch the wording you can catch glimpses of what some really knew–one of the videos of the honcho speak starts out talking about the killing of the GMHS crew–one Joy posted–but the next guy talks about the death of the GMHS crew. One speaks loudly of what was in that guys mind and what he was mindful of.
Hard to post for me lately
just get captcha concerns or errors
Anyone else? or it says duplicate and its my first time to hit submit.
We Are Not “Super Human” … We Are Just Human Beings With “All Different Backgrounds” and “All Different Levels Of Education and Maturity” … Some Of Us Are Connected Internally To The Yarnell Hill Fire And Its Aftermath … I Am Not One Of The People Sitting On A PC And Never Even Be On The Weavers To Personally Examine It Up Close … I Firmly Stand … I Am One Of The Eyewitnesses On The YH Fire Who Want Others To Share The Facts In Their Own Comfort Capabilities – Not Be Pushed Any Other Way Yet Your Account Matters Hearsay or First Hand. It Matters !!!!
Wtktt:
You very genuinely have been here for the World for over six years. Thank You.
Anytime someone comes out with anything anonymous or not, you take the time ( which in your world everything is well organized on Yarnell Hill Fire ( YH Fire ) ( and possibly many other fires) and at times you can be perceived unjust … I know I have over time especially when you always redirect or question areas I am not at that point able to add anymore than what I just provided especially when I try to get some point out on the Sesame to Street and Spur Road Areas because in what I have been shown and I saw…there was huge factors in those areas if they are released purely I truly believe may change the way everyone looks at YH Fire.
Many of folks even main stream media and myself have used your information and cross-fade videos because you are a huge core to the true investigation of the YH Fire.
Gary, has had many decades doing a job and he was the right man for THAT job he did then fell into retirement and a jeeper he became but he is still in some manner glued to the Safety of past, current and future Wildland Firefighters… I assume, this IM is a side kick moment to his life – and as well to educate people on Respiratory –
What you both fail to get is the complexity of how can we get what we know out.
This is not as simple as upload and it is out … “shew” … done. Not that simple. Not for the crucial areas. Today I will go through files and upload MISC since I have it and it helps people like John Woodmansee and his journey and he stated Never be afraid to speak The truth. If we don’t use our voice we lose it.
We are human beings ,not AI 9000, involved and it is not at all to be shady or protect but always SAFETY MATTERS
and mental health matters
but then who’s mental health in this, right ???
the ones watching who faced the losses? and only them ??? as some try to make us feel such way because they do not respect further research into what happened… and then call us very wrong labels if you are trying to learn and they redirect that John MacLean and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair are the only true source but I do plan to show when I get there Alan’ s account from fact aka photos…if I happen to stumble on that file and find any pics today I will post here…
The homeowners who faced a loss? their mental health?
The many people who died or are diseased since …
The homeowners who lost their many generations home and who’s own kid had a causal factor in that? Then now they are too close to one of the GMHS loved ones so emotions block that revelation in the simplicity way but it is facts. Their mental health?
The guy who did what he did with the type one engine and where he and the others were yet they think their family clout and lawyers will always protect them? Yet is this fella able to look in the mirror or better yet look in the eyes of their child and finally he does the right thing for his life and his wife and kid’s life not the glaze of other family members. his mental health? and pay no mind to who his dad is… His mental health?
How about engine 58 you just mentioned who I know exactly who was to that engine and I personally interviewed his account- what about his/their mental health?
What about the ones who laid the fire down and their story who feels like they want it out but they do not want to be the first one by name because of the families and homeowners as they are still in the Fire Industry and they love their job or that job provides for their family and lifestyles? Their mental health?
What about the GMHS fathers who have been misrepresented and mistreated in the aftermath of this tragedy? They deserved much better. Their mental health?
What about the ADOSH and SAIT SAIR investigators and the touhy stuff… and MORE… Their mental health? ( RIP Pete Masiel and Dave Larsen )
Pull the records if you can because nowadays for some reason you have to have written permission from the person you are pulling the record on in some areas … but really pay attention who moved around and who moved quickly and who stayed and got perks may it be in public way of viewing or in private…. pay attention
The hikers who watched that entire weekend – what about our health and how are we doing? We faced some serious health aftermaths yet we stay with you all even when discounted and called a nothing or to this date I have done nothing with my life 2 have publicly stated… I do not live my life to others scale of how it should be lived… I have some areas I daily work on that are not me but I recognize my flaws yet have wants/necessities too… I am in this life for the ‘golden generation’ which are about all gone and young minds … Even though I do not spew what I do all together that is a respect and privacy thing for others because some are not humbled and would be humiliated if I said I taught them how to read and write and and do math or statistics (soft giggles) not just for people here but Internationally.
So who’s mental health ???
… it should be all of us however some discredit and spew about me and all I have done is try to get the data to the front that I know I am one person against what type of industry … a billion dollar one ??? okay. And with prior employees like Gary who “knows” internally the goings ons and knows what to do or say to get one to do or say – then if I share then expect a share back in a sense … versus some person to “help” you comprehend or walk you through this which I prefer being this is not an area I worked in just the “housewife hiker” …I am willing to give it my best yet again I am human so when I am doing all I can because my personal DNA has been confirmed in June 2019 what I am about to do is not healthy or something my DNA is capable to do but I am willing … but who else is THIS willing even with all on my plate? Are Y O U willing to come on board?
I have good medical folks I show my blog … I have zero to hide … zero … there is a layer to my life currently that is not who I am yet I have been here for all and I mean all even the people who have caused me harm.
John Dougherty has promised anonymity over time to people as well yet this would in some sense take a Crew of Witness Protection type folks and Proper Counselors and a just Justice process to make this really happen … otherwise when I had lined up actual people to be at that conference in a sense I want to thank Wtktt and Gary because I was in a spew mode because I did not know why you both would express that to the World at that week and at that time. You all had no idea what was going on behind the scenes and who God was guiding me to so in my World it felt scary to see it placed out Public. I just re-routed it to new platform. All is solid. I guess I just did not want to have to do that because of feeling ill.
In closing, I support you DHD if you decide to pause because WTKTT had simple questions and Woodsman and others…some of those answer would identify WHO if anyone knows this in its entirety so I get you there to sort out and pause what is the best way to answer those questions…as simple as WTKTT makes them…just name this or that…it does have to be done right…and I know even RTS has placed it on you to get it out because TRUTH MATTERS yet I do really get it …I even want to answer those questions for you but I then was like…crap…no burying our heads in sand but let’s pause and figure how we can get this to the front…and as one stated somewhere about hearsay – they do not know who you are so they are just make their perception but we know how credible you are and then some…
Today I will go through some files of mine and post to GOOGLE PHOTOS …most came to me in PDF form of 50-100 pages for each person and not as actual images just images attached on to a PDF so I snipped any that had vehicles or fire behaviors of something I saw an interest myself…
this is Joshua Hudson – a few off his PDF file:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mE7M4HHAamJeY6nq7
if this is found somewhere on IM – wonderful – this is what I got and I am not trying to be redundant but at times a lot of us did not get to “looking” until later in this…so it is here and in this file I just want to present location of Prescott Fire Dept truck so later as I progress it will all make sense…since I am not organized like some out there in this… yet at least I take the time out to share when I have the PC time…I kept IM off my cell and only get on IM when texted to do so and then I get on PC…
RTS states that is normal behavior to lay retardant on fire so let me show that in next file insert for you, Sonny.
I said:
versus some person to “help” you comprehend or walk you through this which I prefer being this is not an area I worked in just the “housewife hiker”
Both Sonny and I exclude Wayne Neill from this and Dr Ted Putnam – they took their valuable time to teach the hikers the terminology- so exclude those 2…
Sonny, this is where retardant gets dropped on “live” fire and RTS states that is part of what they do in the Fire Industry—
????
even though they will not take the time to do a “case study” to see if maybe a lot of deaths in a tiny town is not ENOUGH to maybe change some of their normal tactics of what they do… for our lives do matter, RTS –
just saying…
go to USB YARNELL HILL 015 in this album:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cF3ET8uGMJWoVDgT7
someone modified the video above on 8-5-13 at 4:32pm- why and who and what was modified from this?
And to give credit to John Dougherty – back when xxxFullSail and EN were on and John was having to remove comments or be more “in” on monitoring but we all have liked that he has not monitored this page like when you are at Wildfire Today so I hope people accept the fact that in such freedom we have our moments –
I have full blown been upset at John but looking back it was my take because my comments were in moderation to later learn I had 1 letter out of my email address or something and I would be heated to him and he would be out of state or country and I would be like “ugh” so yeah life happens and it is what it is at times but in the end some comments never get here because I never re-tried – frustrations – yet like I have stated before I have donated hundreds of dollars to the site donation button and I think people do not comprehend it does cost funds to run sites … some are free …. but if added security measures are added to site than people have to get that.
I always know everyone has a role in this and we can have our days or moments but I also want the world to know JD and his blog has provided some of the most important facts that never was shown by Investigators….
Stay the course.
Sonny- I am posting more pics under Joshua but had many rude interruptions over in my world so I keep getting side tracked but going down my file and loading you up as you asked me back channel to keep sharing…
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oc5PEdy3r2nUMePNA
Yarnell Fire Investigation\Photos-Video\ASFD Photos – Larz Garcia
Here you go Sonny-
Sonny, there is bad weather rolling in and time to soon soak
PLEASE go back to this link later again but this is what I loaded so far for Roy Hall’s PIO:
it says uploading status
it will not share link until the 8th one is loaded so hope I can before storm hits share the link…
so may have to wait and try again tomorrow…once storm starts than I log out and soak then a movie and elevate my legs-
But as you asked me Sonny to stay the course and just go through files and upload – I am.
But meanwhile wtktt seems to think I am him AI 9000 and have easy ways to show- you know how unorganized and so does RTS and all I was stating it was not done – I still can later add to it…
Reply to Charlie post on July 12, 2019 at 12:50 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> The Shrine was definetly a burn area we now know.
It’s still not clear whether the ‘video’ that “Downhillndirect” ( DHD ) says HE saw… and that he says ( in his words ) “the STATE GOONS” came and confiscated from him… is even the same video YOU saw.
Did he really see the SAME Shrine / Youth Camp / ‘Waltraud Residence’ video… or are we actually now talking about MULTIPLE ( different ) videos ‘disappearing’?
Dunno.
He didn’t hang around long enough so we could even clarify THAT.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> However the description DND gives points to the Sesame Street Dirt Road
>> which would be anywhere from the 3500 to 5600 ft. mentioned by DNA
I asked him if he could clarify that.
3500 to 5600 feet… from WHERE? And in which DIRECTION?
There has been no reply ( as yet ).
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> The boss that ordered that Captain to do that burn had to be
>> consulting with Marsh as well and I would have to believe
>> the radio channels are where all could hear.
If there WAS any ‘consultation’ with DIVSA ( Marsh )… then yea… you can be pretty sure it was NOT over the GM ‘Crew Net’ radio channel… and more likely over one of the standard TAC channels. That means a LOT of other people ( who are still alive ) would have been hearing those conversations.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Now when Donut said there was embers crossing the road on the way out
Brendan’s own photographs that he took at exactly 3:49 PM ( after making it all the way back to the top of the Sesame Street area where the GM command vehicles were parked ) prove that was NOT happening at all. Not at 3:49 PM, anyway.
That ’embers crossing the road’ blurb from Brendan was just part of that brand new ‘story’ he was telling in his recent Memphis television interview where he is now ( apparently ) just “making things up” about what happened that day.
I still think that was Brendan just trying to make his ‘new story’ about his exit more closely resemble the bullshit depicted in the movie.
Brendan’s recent retelling of of his ‘exit’ in that Memphis TV interview doesn’t even resemble what he wrote in his OWN book.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> If those were type 3 engines–then are those structure engines–
Not really. A ‘Type 3’ engine is generally just a very large Wildland Engine.
They are BIG… and they are HEAVY… and they are not meant to be driven ‘off road’.
Below is a direct link to a PHOTO of the only USFS Type 3 Engine that was even KNOWN to be in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
It’s a photo that SPGS2 Darrell Willis took of Tonto National Forest ( USFS ) Engine AZ-TNF-E58 out at the Double-Bar-A Ranch, where Willis was using it to help ‘prep’ that ranch.
Online Folder…
SAIT / AZ Forestry Division Investigation / Photos and Video / Darrell Willis Photos
Photo filename: IMG_0052.JPG
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAC2NigK9EcCCvp6RZDlTHi-a/Photos%20and%20Video/Darrell%20Willis%20Photos?dl=0&preview=IMG_0052.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
This is the same USFS Engine seen in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos driving out on Double-Bar-A Ranch Road with 2 crew members doing a ‘burnout’ in front of it. This was always part of SPGS2 Darrell Willis’ plan and they were told to do it when they were ‘exiting’ that Double-Bar-A Ranch location right around 3:34 PM on June 30, 2013.
After that, Tonto NF Type 3 Engine E-58 was filmed in an AFUE video 20130630_155726_SEAT_EP assisting SPGS2 Willis with additional burnouts up on Model Creek Road in Peeples Valley.
Engine AZ-TNF-E58 is seen still there up on Model Creek road when the video ends, at 3:57 PM, and ( according to multiple Unit Logs ) that’s where Engine AZ-TNF-E58 remained up until the time of the deployment ( at 4:39 ).
In addition… USFS Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E-58 is never seen passing the camera and heading towards Yarnell, as filmed by that other camera the AFUE team had set up and filming ( continuously ) all the comings-and-goings up there on Hays Ranch Road in Peeples Valley.
So IAOI there were any Federal USFS Type 3 Engines doing burnouts down in Yarnell, it appears that Tonto National Forest Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58 could NOT have been one of them.
>> Charlie also said…
>> There are only two roads where those could be manipulated–
>> one would be Sesame street dirt road–what I understand DND
>> to be describing or else the road directly to the Helms.
Yes.
Type 3 Engines don’t just go driving in the ‘boondock’.
If they were there… they MUST have been driving on actual two-tracks or actual roads.
That limits the places where they COULD have even been that day.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> This stinks to high heaven.
It certainly does.
It’s all going to come out.
Unfortunately, when it does, the ‘stink’ level is just going to rise even further and will never actually go away. It’s pretty much a permanent stench, even at this point.
WTKTT,
You posted: “After that, Tonto NF Type 3 Engine E-58 was filmed in an AFUE video 20130630_155726_SEAT_EP assisting SPGS2 Willis with additional burnouts up on Model Creek Road in Peeples Valley.”
I’ve never seen any AFUE recordings with Engines, only pickups and such.
Would you kindly post the link(s) for those you mentioned?
Thank you
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 13, 2019 at 7:15 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> You posted: “After that, Tonto NF Type 3 Engine E-58 was
>> filmed in an AFUE video 20130630_155726_SEAT_EP assisting
>> SPGS2 Willis with additional burnouts up on Model Creek
>> Road in Peeples Valley.”
>>
>> I’ve never seen any AFUE recordings with Engines, only pickups and such.
>>
>> Would you kindly post the link(s) for those you mentioned?
All of the “Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness” ( AFUE ) videos that were released publicly are still sitting in the following online folders…
/ SAIT / Photos and Video / AerialFirefightingstudy / Moore
/ SAIT / Photos and Video / AerialFirefightingstudy / Panebaker
/ SAIT / Photos and Video / AerialFirefightingstudy / Swartz
The video in question is one of the ‘Panebaker’ ones.
/ SAIT / Photos and Video / AerialFirefightingstudy / Panebaker / Video / Video /
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABZHI5bHPGycOVSAZbxff6Ea/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
The Panebaker video with filename 20130630_155726_SEAT_EP.MOV is in that folder, fourth row down, third one from the left.
Direct link to that 20130630_155726_SEAT_EP.MOV video…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABZHI5bHPGycOVSAZbxff6Ea/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video?dl=0&preview=20130630_155726_SEAT_EP.MOV&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
File Name: 20130630_155726_SEAT_EP.MOV
Creation Date: 2013:06:30 17:56:00
Duration: 0:01:24
This video BEGINS at 3:56:02 PM, is 1 minute and 24 seconds long, and ENDS at 3:57:26 PM.
When the video starts, you can already see SPGS2 Darrell Willis’ white-with-red stripe Prescott Fire Department pickup truck on the left side of the video frame, off in the distance, up on Model Creek Road.
At +54 seconds, someone ( Eric Panebaker himself? ) ZOOMS IN on the Model Creek Road area and starts screwing around with the focus. He’s trying to capture an upcoming SEAT drop that’s about to happen right there over Model Creek Road.
He finally gets the focus right just before the SEAT drops.
As he does… you can now see SPGS2 Darrell Willi’s pickup more clearly up there on Model Creek Road. It’s right there under the retardant plume falling from the SEAT, and slightly to the right.
At this same moment ( the SEAT drop ), look to the LEFT and inside the ‘smoke’ up there on Model Creek Road. You will see the back of Tonto National Forest USFS Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58 coming up the road, toward’s Willis’ location. Engine AZ TNF-E58 has all its lights ON and FLASHING.
For the remainder of the video you will see Engine AZ-TNF-E58 drive closer to where the retardant just fell, and then it will ‘turn around’ and you get a good profile of that all-aquamarine USFS Engine.
Here are the actual entries from SPGS2 Darrell Willis’ ( typed ) Unit Log which match what is being seen in the video. He was up there “making a stand” with ‘burnouts’ on Model Creek Road and Tonto National Forest USFS Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58 was with him…
Willis’ Unit Log entries say AZ-TNF-E58 was involved in these ‘Model Creek Road’ burnouts from 4:00 PM to 4:30 PM… just before Willis heard the deployment radio traffic.
————————————————————————————
1300
Gave Command to fire around ranch, resources holding around firing operation.
1430
Gave Command to for resources to leave ranch. Fire activity ver active ROS increasing. Fire is in a line East to West against the structures.
1445
Gave command to fire out along East side of main road as the resources evacuated. unknown time. Contated Operations to evacuate Model Creek subdivision.
1515
Discussed tactics with Operations Musser about firing south of Model Creek road to protect south. Approval Granted assigned Ranch resources to begin firing from the intersection of Double Bar A ranch West along Model Creek Road. Several slop overs occurred but were picked up.
1600
TF#1 requesting resources to conduct firing operations with Operations in Model Creek Subdivion. E-58 assigned due to their experience level.
1630
Firing COMPLETED to top of hill towards Model Creek. Fire behavior is moderating.
1640
Heard radio conversation about deployment.
——————————————————————————————
** BLM ENGINES
The only other FEDERAL ‘Engines’ that were known to be in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013, were two other BLM Engines. One was a Type 6… but one was, in fact, a Type 3.
They both were painted that sickly neon-yellow/green color that BLM uses, and not the aquamarine colors used by US Forestry.
BOTH of these only other known FED Engines were also working with SPGS2 Darrell Willis up north, in Peeples Valley.
From Structure Group 2 TFLD Todd Foster’s Unit Log…
—————————————————————————————–
Initial resources on line prior to my arrival:
AZ-TNF Engine 58 (Type 3): Working on Structure prep at Double Bar A Ranch.
BLM E3665 (Type 3): Working on Structure prep at Double Bar A Ranch.
BLM E1660 (Type 6): Release at approx 1030 after scouting Model Creek Road.
They were going on 30+ hours, so I sent them in to ICP for rest.
—————————————————————————————-
There actually is still a bit of ‘mystery’ surrounding BLM Type 3 Engine E3665.
It was definitely out at the Double-Bar-A Ranch along with Tonto NF Engine AZ TNF-E58, but it’s whereabouts following the evacuation of the Ranch are not fully known.
More about that later.
WTKTT,
Thank you for posting these AFUE links.
You posted this and other references to TNF E-58 during the AFUE video clip: “You will see the back of Tonto National Forest USFS Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58 coming up the road, toward’s Willis’ location. Engine AZ TNF-E58 has all its lights ON and FLASHING.”
It’s a bit of a stretch for me to identify it as TNF E-58 in the video without doing a snap shot or freeze-frame and zoom in for details.
I’ll take your word for it. Thanks again
It’s the Unit Logs that actually verify the whereabouts of Type 3 USFS Engine AZ-TNF-E58 that day. Both Willis’ and Structure Group 2 TFLD Todd Foster’s Unit Logs completely agree that AZ-TNF-E58 was part of that Model Creek Road ‘burnout’ from just before 4:00 PM on through about 4:30 PM. ( and just before the deployment down south in Yarnell ).
The AFUE video is really just ‘additional proof’ on the whereabouts of AZ-TNF-E58 that day and just more confirmation of what’s already in the Unit Logs.
And again… just pointing out that AZ-TNF-E58 is the ONLY Federal USFS Type 3 Engine that is KNOWN to have been there that day.
If there were ANY other all-aquamarine USFS Type 3 Engines there in Yarnell that day… at any time… there is absolutely NO documentation whatsoever on them.
Of course… if their presence was trying to be ERASED from the record… then it’s no surprise they would be ‘undocumented’.
What still boggles my mind is that if there really WERE two other large Federal Type 3 engines there that day… where did they go?
Even with all the photographs and videos taken that day… they don’t appear anywhere… at any time… either before or after the deployment.
It’s pretty hard to hide Type 3 engines… especially when everyone and their uncle is shooting photos and videos.
Followup…
>> Robert the Second (RTS ) said…
>>
>> It’s a bit of a stretch for me to identify it as
>> TNF E-58 in the video without doing a snap
>> shot or freeze-frame and zoom in for details.
I believe I’ve pointed this out before… but if you’re going to be in the business of analyzing photos and videos… you should have a video player that let’s you ZOOM IN ( in real time ) on any video WHILE it is playing… and to any level of granularity you need.
The VLC media player can do that.
You can get the VLC meida playere here… it’s FREE…
https://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html
WHAT?????
Are you freaking kiddin’ me…
The fact that multiple men have told me they had to meet in Prescott immediately to make sure all their notes were complimentary then I would use UNIT LOGS as a minor tool in gathering data
It is historically factual that Unit Logs are the FIRST to redacted and changed areas
Also let us LOOK at how many INEXPERIENCED where out there or first time bosses… and LOOK how many experienced helped cover it up…
WTKTT,
You posted: “It’s the Unit Logs that actually verify the whereabouts of Type 3 USFS Engine AZ-TNF-E58 that day. Both Willis’ and Structure Group 2 TFLD Todd Foster’s Unit Logs completely agree that AZ-TNF-E58 was part of that Model Creek Road ‘burnout’ from just before 4:00 PM on through about 4:30 PM. ( and just before the deployment down south in Yarnell ).”
For one, I would never trust the veracity of Unit Logs given the inconsistency from after-the-fact or after-shift or prior to demob Unit Logs based on memory or scribbled notes on your Shift Plan (IAP)
And Unit Logs would likely be the first things to cover-up or destroy or never turn in to the Documentation Unit, especially in a tragic event like this.
And as far as the Unit Logs that “completely agree” – that is credible because sources tell me that WFs and FFs were instructed to make them all the same during a debriefing somewhere in Prescott on the day following the GMHS fatalities.
How many Type 3 Federal Engines show up on Resource Orders? Most of the Engines that day were local and / or CAWRT Municipal Engines.
Amen RTS–
did we finally agree on something
I am only talking ( in this thread ) about Tonto National Forest Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58.
In just THAT case ( the whereabouts of that particular Type 3 Engine )… the Unit Logs AND the photographic evidence MATCH.
Are you trying to say that you don’t believe AZ-TNF-E58 was where the Unit Logs SAY it was… and that was part of the ‘fakery’ that took place?
There IS an actual resource order for AZ-TNF-E58.
It’s Resource Order E-9 in the “J-Resource Orders.pdf” document.
It is the ONLY Resource order in the entire file for a Type 3 Federal USFS Engine with regards to Yarnell.
If ‘they’ were trying to ‘hide’ AZ-TNF-E58… they fucked up.
WTKTT,
Where did I say or call into question that I “don’t believe AZ-TNF-E58 was where the Unit Logs SAY it was”?
And where did I say or call into question “that was part of the ‘fakery’ that took place?”
I know there IS an actual resource order for AZ-TNF-E58 because it’s Resource Order E-9 in the “J-Resource Orders.pdf” document.
I asked about OTHER Resource orders for Type 3 Federal USFS Engines.
Thank you
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post.
on July 13, 2019 at 3:32 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Where did I say or call into question
>> that I “don’t believe AZ-TNF-E58 was
>> where the Unit Logs SAY it was”?
Just above… when you said you would, as a rule, ( quote ) “NEVER trust the veracity of Unit Logs”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And where did I say or call into question
>> “that was part of the ‘fakery’ that took place?”
Same place. Up above… when you tried to describe the ( supposed ) ) pow-wow that took place to ( your quote )…
“…sources tell me that WFs and FFs were instructed to make them all the same during a debriefing somewhere in Prescott on the day following the GMHS fatalities.”
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I know there IS an actual resource order
>> for AZ-TNF-E58 because it’s Resource
>> Order E-9 in the “J-Resource Orders.pdf”
>> document.
>>
>> I asked about OTHER Resource orders
>> for Type 3 Federal USFS Engines.
Already answered that ( above ).
There aren’t any.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Thank you
No problem.
WTKTT,
We’ll try it again.
There is VISUAL proof in the form of videos and photos of TNF E-58 that verify that it was engaged on the YH Fire on June 30, 2013. No question about that.
My issue was with verifying that fact – or any “fact” or “factual information” – solely on someone’s Unit Log(s).
Unit Logs are one of the most untrustworthy sources of information
You really do LIKE these “trips to Abilene”, don’t you?
ROFL.
Of COURSE you can never fully trust ‘Unit Logs’ when there’s other evidence FFs are trying to cover their asses.
And YES… in THIS CASE ( the whereabouts of AZ-TNF-E58 ) we can pretty much be certain that it WAS working on Model Creek Road all the up to the time of the deployment, and could NOT have been ‘down in Yarnell’ between 3:30 and 4:30 PM.
All that was established up above..
Are we done here?
WTKTT,
This is definitely NOT a trip to Abilene. May I elucidate
“SYMPTOMS OF THE [ABILENE] PARADOX
“The inability to manage agreement, not the inability to manage conflict, is the essential symptom that defines organizations caught in the web of the Abilene Paradox. That inability to manage agreement effectively is expressed by six specific sub symptoms, all of which were present in our family.
“1. Organization members agree privately, as individuals, as to the nature of the situation or problem facing the organization.
“2. Organization members agree privately, as individuals, as to the steps that would be required to cope with the situation or problem they face.
“3. Organization members fail to accurately communicate their desires and/or beliefs to one another. In fact, they do just the opposite and thereby lead one another into misperceiving the collective reality.
“4. With such invalid and inaccurate information, organization members make collective decisions that lead them to take actions contrary to what they want to do, and thereby arrive at results that are counterproductive to the organization’s intent and purposes.
“5. As a result of taking actions that are counterproductive, organization members experience frustration, anger, irritation, and dissatisfaction with their organization.
“Consequently, they form subgroups with trusted acquaintances and blame other sub-groups for the organization’s dilemma. Frequently, they also blame authority figures and one another.
“6. Finally, if organization members do not deal with the generic issue — the inability to manage agreement —the cycle repeats itself with greater intensity. The Abilene group, for a variety of reasons, the most important of which was that it became conscious of the process, did not reach that point.
In summary, the Abilene Paradox or a trip to Abilene, is the inability to manage agreement, not the inability to manage conflict.
We merely disagree and that’s okay, so this is another one of those “agree to disagree” things.
Stick a fork in me, I’m done unless you want to keep it on
How to identify groupthink: An introduction to the Abilene Paradox by Todd Ballowe
( https://onstrategyhq.com/resources/how-to-identify-groupthink-an-introduction-to-the-abilene-paradox/ )
One of numerous sources
I enjoy the academic ‘flights’ as much as anyone… but the simple ( colloquial ) definition of a ‘Trip to Abilene’ is exactly where we are right now.
In a place where no one really wanted to go.
We’re about 8 comments beyond what it took to ( already ) establish the ( current ) known whereabouts of Tonto National Forest Type 3 Engine AZ-TNF-E58.
Until new information emerges ( which Joy seems to be hinting she MIGHT have… but isn’t really sure? ) we’ll have to assume it really was up there on Model Creek Road from 3:30 to 4:30 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013, and could NOT have been involved in any ‘burnouts’ in the Yarnell area.
A Type 3 Model 62 or 326 (Type 3 Engine, build up International and or Pierce).
Two or four wheel drive. Two wheel equipped with rear lockers. Four wheel drive, obvious.
Water capacity 500-625 gallons of water and 20 gallons of foam. Depending on build-up hold 4-5 people and requires a CDL operator(s). Meat for the terrain and narrow roads in Yarnell.
Yes they are big and heavy but the standard in wildland applications and to get water and personnel to areas type 1-2 engines can’t go
If that fact is in question too I can send pictures and other supporting factual pieces of documentation if anyone would like it.
As far as my “rumor” information goes I.e. Firing operation and state confiscated video, I am trying to present it in a way that two people I care about don’t lose their jobs and I don’t lose mine.
Information that is made public only tells 1/4th of the information on 6/30/13. I will cut and paste this just Incas it gets lost in moderation..
At the moment, we’re trying to figure out if the VIDEO you saw ( and had in your possession for a while ) is the SAME one that Woodsman, Joy, Sonny and about 18 other people remember seeing.
Did you actually SEE two Type 3 engines in the video itself?
If so… what COLOR were they?
HOW is DND going to know if the video that HE saw was the SAME one that Woodsman, Joy, Sonny, and about 18 other people remember seeing … unless HE saw the video that Woodsman, Joy, Sonny, Norb, and about 17 other people remember seeing ?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
July 13, 2019 at 3:37 pm
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> HOW is DND going to know if the video that HE
>> saw was the SAME one that Woodsman, Joy,
>> Sonny, and about 18 other people remember
>> seeing … unless HE saw the video that
>> Woodsman, Joy, Sonny, Norb, and about 17 other
>> people remember seeing ?
You’re not usually this dense. Having a bad day?
I am not asking HIM to make that determination.
I am just asking him to tell us what HE saw in a video that we KNOW he watched.
That’s all. It’s a really, really simple question.
If he answers it… we’ll take it from there.
OTHER OPTION: He could ‘read around’ and see what the other people have already described seeing in the video THEY watched… and then just say whether he saw the same thing, or not…
…but that’s a lot of work.
It would be much simpler if he would just describe what HE saw in HIS video.
WTKTT,
Getting a bit testy here, ey … I could say the same about your density My Friend.
So glad that you realized that I’m not usually this dense. Like every day, I’m having a grand day. “This is the day The Lord has made, we will rejoice and be glad in it.” Psalm 118:24 (NIV)
“… trying to figure out if the VIDEO YOU [DND] saw ( AND HAD IN YOUR POSSESSION FOR A WHILE IS THE SAME ONE THAT WOODSMAN, JOY, SONNY AND ABOUT 18 OTHER PEOPLE REMEMBER SEEING.”
HOW can DND “… figure out if the VIDEO you [DND] saw ( and had in your [DND] possession for a while ) is the SAME one that Woodsman, Joy, Sonny and about 18 other people remember seeing” unless he either:
1) Sat down with “Woodsman, Joy, Sonny and about 18 other people” and watched his [DND] video and asking them if it’s the same
2) SOMEHOW, SOMEWAY saw the very same movie that “Woodsman, Joy, Sonny and about 18 other people” watched at the Yarnell Library in July 2013
What is the matter with you?
The guy says he saw a video.
He has not said exactly what HE saw in that video.
It would be helpful if he would just DO that.
So I ( politely ) asked him to do that SIMPLE thing.
What don’t you GET about that?
WTKTT,
All is well here.
I got your intent from the beginning. It was how you worded it
FWIW… I really don’t think the guy will increase his chances of being ‘discovered’ just because he reports what he actually SAW in a video.
Is that what YOU think?
wtktt stated:
FWIW… I really don’t think the guy will increase his chances of being ‘discovered’ just because he reports what he actually SAW in a video.
Is that what YOU think?
—————————————–
My Reply:
this is not a discovery moment – wow – really
That was uncalled for – this man lost a really close friend. He, by coming forward, as much as he has also has in turn places him in an even harder spot.
—————————————
been brought to my attention so here ya go… those seeking an answer:
I have seem to be placed in this box of some think I am controlling data or “teasing” information and I accept your perceptions.
where if you historically look at IM I do state my intentions that IM is a tool for my life; in a sense a “Notepad” to timestamp events for me not the World and I have repetitively shared that on IM.
(never an agenda or any style of games in this for me – rest assured )
Again, let me state for some have shown confusion- IM Forum is just some place for Joy to make “Notes to Yourself” or to Sonny…or someone out there…
I never paid it any mind that “others” are paying me any mind especially when it is the very Social Media areas and as well this site and another area I was labelled a nobody yet I just keep carrying on to do what I have to do and not pay mind to what people perceive me to be-
(sure if you Big Brother me or ask my family and friends or Sonny – I have wept over time but I am a “Cancer” born kid – most sensitive born there is but I will not allow it to cease me to keep trying to bridge the facts to the front. )
There is some information I have that some of you do feel should be in your lap and it down right pisses you off I say it is in the right hands and you feel we have had a comrade way to our knowing – I do get that – yet recently I was not joking what I have with the right folks are very hard information as I have said over and over that cannot be just dumped out and anyone who has worked for certain agencies in the Fire Industry in the depth I have given the right folks than you get me there …
I time stamped when I got stuff but that given it out like I use to changed when I learned there is actually folks out there that want harm my way (and to people I know) and like I said that data is with my life insurance agency.
I am not an internet type person – I stay away from Social Media sites –
For some, I know it is hard to imagine why I remain even though I am picked on. Quite simply stated God has the plan
and remember the story of how Jesus was treated – I was never told to be in a relationship with Him that my life would be of ease or comforts – quite the opposite.
I do feel calm and through all my “team tantrum” times I know He has us cloaked in His arms. It’s all good.
I have hope and faith
Some would like me to cease my “Notepad” here on IM yet I have people I see only in person or coded here so yeah it will not cease- just pass over my comments is all
and remember noone can make you feel any way…
anytime you get to that point … Give it to God … it’s a struggle for us all yet if we did just that more peace can enter versus that ugly pit feel some of you have created for me.
No reason to have that bad yuk emotion if you do-
If I write anything that causes you confusion – please privately go to my blog and chat with me without having to identify who you are or go there to email me direct or call me.
but I am not going to be looking the next few weeks too much on IM like I did yesterday on the PC so best you reach me direct vs taking the time here to reply and mess with the captchas
and if you have to reply here then you just want the world to know where you stand and that again is your take and I am not gonna change because say a million feel I should be doing my life to their standards or just get the facts out asap versus God’s – I will remain doing how I have been doing it.
Under the concept of “tolerance” …Some very kind man once told me “I have to tolerate you so you have to tolerate with me.” – it goes both ways.
Some here come peak at what is new and some get a heat of passion and share and some are strictly on here to read and gather and spew wrong with ill intent elsewhere…
I strongly believe if you want me to communicate more fluently to you than we have to be VPN Proton to Proton end to end encrypted email or end to end encrypted Signal to Signal text/calls because I get alerted if someone tries to hack me there – I have zero trust in other email/text services and I am strict to share out on a non-Signal line. So that’s that.
If I can pull text messages in FOIAs and PRR and Jeff Whitney’s File is due out on this IM soon as I am done with Roy Hall’s PIO
and hey remember as wtktt stated once they gave it to me and I am not making monies than it is PUBLIC RECORDS so some may not like to be out there but hey it is the right thing to do so people can see the behind the scenes to this all.
What’s new in my world? I am broken.
I heard the depth of June 30, 2013 for one of the people who was very close to one of the GMHS and in that I hope to one day be given the Grace to post that on my blog yet it is not to create a story yet to humanize these men more and more to the realisms and I point out flaws on my blog to show where the leadership stood on June 30, 2013 and never to discredit these men – never.
I am on my PC today but rarely going to IM so I can stay focused to uploading files and if I get a file going I will post it here…then I am off the PC for appx a month i and it is blocked on my cell so have a solid Summer…for sure mid week I will be done uploading and away from my FOIA storage area-
As for folks out there having difficulty posting or it is in moderation – keep trying –
Another from IM wanted to let DHD know –
“It takes a little bit of practice to get the posting down for success. I understand his frustration. He should write out what he wants to say in a document and save it. Cut and paste into the blog. Type in the username and email address correctly – double check before hitting post. If Captcha is timed out like it usually is, hit the “circle arrow” to refresh it. If you lose it just start again…which is no big deal because you can just copy and paste the original comment again. Since his information is so important, he should feel free to go all the way to the bottom of the comments and post a new comment (Which will display as a new parent comment at the top of the list) any time he wants.
Hopefully this will help him in the frustration department and alleviate the stress of feeling like he has to respond to all of our questions one at a time. Either way, it’s not too difficult with some practice. I am also aware of his security concerns and the emotional aspects of his posting. I definitely want him to post for his own healing purposes. He wants to talk or he wouldn’t have shown up. All the support in the world for him from me.”
Please DHD know he is not the only person…some do not comprehend the difficulties you faced… before posting and after…
What I was looking at was thinking DND would be talking about the two track where they came down from as the internal two track—the only thing withing 3/4 to about a mile would be the Sesame St. Dirt road or perhaps the nice gravel road into the Helms.
The dirt road of Sesame St. is very well passable with such an engine up to a distance of about two miles as I recollect–but when you start up the slope toward the old grader then things do get rough.
Someone can look at a map and tell pretty much what he is describing–I think the Shrine Road is more on the order of over a mile to mile and a half from the two track. I am just judging from hiking in there so often.
The Sesame St. dirt road eventually t’s into the two track. But as far as I can tell the two track would be describing the road the parallels the Weaver Range and even tops it near where the lightening strike was. Sesame does more or less parallel that road but varies likely the 3/4 to mile distance until it shoots up to the grader then turns back over a small rise, down to where we came out and then directly up to the two track.
I damn well know they were setting fires in the Shine area–several beside Joy and I saw that. But it also would make sense to be setting fires on the Helms and the Sesame St. if you wanted to make a clearing before the main fire toward Peeples Valley came back. There are photos RTS posted to appear to be those very burns.
I do not know how long the wind remained relative calm before the main winds came in. We were on the opposite side of the Weavers and protected from winds on the east side. It seems their window of opportunity was cut short by the burns–and I would understand what DND would be saying–the burns would create a vacuum that would bring the Peeples Valley fire in at a much faster rate–so more info is needed to see if burns–even that of the Shrine had anything at all to do with the deaths.
I think so, DND has 25 years in this business and by that time you are wise to these situations, especially with his consulting with those involved. He likely knows better than anyone what came down to kill the men.
SUMMER CAMP COME-BACK 2019
I am here, Gary. I wish I had The Roast General himself (Jeff Ross) ( h t t
p s ://youtu.be/wvtvtROpXW4 ) to help strengthen, my roasting skills when I am down because I find myself not wanting to roast you not because I cannot handle incoming because I can (just been very ill) yet I like you. I get all of you. I will always be there for you. I was ill and I reacted to your “unknown stability” paragraphs about me so I thought I would not bark or bite just get you where it would get you to say things back and it was not with ill-intent or pre-planned. (definitely straight shot from the hip impulsively done when ill)..ask anyone who knows me even Sonny…when I am sick or overly fatigued I can in a blink of an eye get that way when I want to be left alone…might be the Irish-Italian-Indian mix to my DNA…
I formally apologize to you, sir. If it is solely the breathing comment that got you to react to me – I do apologize. I go for a breathing test tomorrow myself. Maybe we both are bewildered by the health matters at our plate and I can talk all day and make fun of my own health but I get ya when someone else does – different story.
Yeah, the video should let the World know no matter the age it can happen to them
yet adding more information would help – did you do any activities to enhance such or was it solely being employed – you do not have to name the other factor(s) if any but to specify this is solely the aftermath of the job or was it a “mixed” factor(s).
My father who Sonny met who towers over folks had a lung removed due to cancer and he said it was because of his days doing New York Skyscraper Construction and the one Chase building here in Arizona but he would get all agitated when I said at an early age “Daddy, how can you solely blame the work you did when you smoke non filter Camels; five to six packs a day…Wouldn’t that with “one” lung also be a contributing factor?” and his gruff rough way “Leo, the Lion” roar say mean things about me and to me in such a sworded way I thought what was wrong with my question(s) ??? So I do believe one must look always to the job factors and as well the person’s personal life and what factors lay there…I think when we have these moments and the newbies do not realize this is not our first rodeo- we feel safe to another and you are always safe to vent with me.
The site is blocked on my cell but I logged onto my pc to answer incoming inquiries because people feel you are discrediting me but you and I do not live like that…free to express…
–
From this article h t t p ://changeyourgamebealeader.c o m/2014/04/14/poke-sleeping-bear-let-sleeping-dogs-lie/ I always think we all should remember the BEAR concept…
I do not mind the diversions and distractions and yes certain evidence will have to be re-routed to protect the actual peoples’ mental health of the people especially the ones who laid the fire on the ground so yes even though WTKTT believes just because it laid public on Google the average Wildland Firefighter is not searching Google for Braniac conferences- if you noted I opted in on a non Wildland style conference. I never stated “exactly” where or when and that was to protect certain people to be present. My take in this was to get the right folks in the audiences and on that stage- the paper where my name is co-author is at this point Fred alone using my blog’s verbiage as well and Honda has minimal to do with this annual.
Now for your take on my Faith- that is your perception and I am sure some may also lay with you in agreement because they never spent “in person” time with me and see that genetic reaction about me that I do when tired or ill or because I always to my life had a sidekick and that is just not the world’s norm. I went to church growing up and at points was even platformed and very involved but as a young adult I was swooped into local convenient to home base type employment and my hobbies did allow me to know “very dearly” A-list Government/Celeb people in the 90’s and early 2000s and that stopped in 2010 when I actually took on full time work and in my college phase my co-worker is now the editor to a huge Media source in New York and so you will never see me do any of the aftermath of Yarnell Hill Fire as the eyewitness to gain or boost anything to my life but I do it for the kids who are young now to the GMHS that one day they knew someone went the full extent.
Sonny is correct. Not anyone on IM has taken the free time for no monies given to hike the Weavers almost a 1,000 times to allow them to properly assess that day from your Fire Industry so I beg to differ your comments about me not being welcomed in that Industry – if anything – they greatly appreciate the efforts because I am not in their industry
and the time I take to try and get the proper changes – one would be – what the heck is the evolve word (I prefer develop – but that is the “human factors” part to me) so spread among the Industry right now
or their spew “it was good until it wasn’t”….I want to stay with this…I may re-route how I get to D.C. or even put my flight plans to some via email so they know if that flight goes down to look more into it. No reason for others to lose their lives just because I was on a flight…
Listen, I also do this because Dave Larsen put a lot of heart into it no matter what the one lawyer spewed about OSHA- the politics were what they were- and Touhy fell strong there.
I also feel Pete Masiel one day I want to investigate his death once I become an investigator for reals – odd how just this year Holly Neill was back channeling looking to talk to Pete not knowing he passed on…Holly, sit with me and let’s talk who still remains in the crucial areas and WHY I am beyond protective to the data and I have never leaked it out even to people I totally respect on IM because until I get a formal documentary and photo release signatures I will not place those folks out not even on a back channel leak..
Yes, Paul Musser could add to tell some areas to June 30 yet we the hikers based that on one of the best lead fire fatality expert saying if he was ever in court he would tell the world about Musser…and if the guy who had the type 1 wants to hide or even deny- it is still coming out so better you than allowing family members to shift you from doing the right thing…I am not wrong. Not at all…it happened. No theory. Reality. No Distance or Fuels/Weather/Topography verbiage can change the evidence.
Now am I ??? or ever was I a Bible Thumping Christian??? – No!
I won’t judge Fred but I would not say he is –
We both have a relationship with Jesus –
The scripture on the blog was brought to the attention to our Blog Mediator (Dr. Aeed) and we need a mediator because we all had different takes on stuff on the blog. Myself, I prefer to have a 100 “drafts” until I examined every sentence and every word then place it in publish mode even if it took seven years but not many others who contribute felt like me- they want it out as it has been going out. I am Joy – the housewife hiker – so if you Gary feel I did nothing all my life there are tens of thousands that do feel differently. In my time knowing the Celeb world was one time I allowed another to use my name for a project for an Upper NY moment of hers – outside that not Thomas J Null and Sonny Gilligan will share that I was a nobody – knowing Sonny was some of the best learning moments to just go out and walk the Earth with nothing on us and Sonny digs in dirt with it not covered but a little tiny piece of green and he said put this in your mouth – as he dug and revealed a bulb size Indian Root – it will help you stay salivated and I faked it until I got back and read about it and you know what he was right… Sonny is truly indigenous and old school. We worked well as a team or as self sufficient independents on the trails – but both of us if we were sick or tired – we had some times but never to this day have we given up another nor have we judged each others Faiths…we appreciate another for who we are…
My door is open to you, Gary – always.
Newbies, if you want to come here than be prepared to be exposed or challenged or questioned deeply-
What the original posters here really do not GET how many have tried to post in the history and it laid in moderation and never making to public viewing…
Plus they do not like the piranha style of questions so quick and too many questions at once…they are new to the site. They are trying to get a feel to the forum world. I know I never did forums or blogs before this Yarnell tragedy so it was hard to see me get picked on early on and I seen others be picked on…the flow between xxxFullSail and EN was like huh…I mean more personal attacks happen even if John Dougherty does not like to play referee like he did early on…there has been…like it or not.
Also in my eyes we are not in a race or competition-
Harold, I hope you remain here and do not become a passer-through…I do not want you to be calloused just to remain but you are always welcome- always.
That movie you watched, Harold – many of loved ones of the GMHS cannot bear to publicly say they watched it but may whisper they saw parts to it and they did not like the digital enhancements yet I did not like the overall story of them knocking areas where to this very day there is no proof they were truly who they say they were and what’s their Latin motto? It is not good for a child to learn a story like that…we have Marvel Comics and Superhero type movies for that,,,
“If I have learned anything in this long life of mine, it is this: in love we find out who we want to be; in war we find out who we are.”
― Kristin Hannah, The Nightingale
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 9, 2019 at 10:06 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> even though WTKTT believes just because it laid public on Google the
>> average Wildland Firefighter is not searching Google for Braniac conferences-
I never said they were… and I do not ‘believe’ it, either.
What I said was… “Anyone who follows this sort of thing”.
Exact quote ( from previous post ) regarding this upcoming AHFE conference…
“Anyone who follows this sort of thing has known for MONTHS that one of the papers that is supposed to be presented there is co-authored by Fred J. Schoeffler, Lance Honda, and Joy A. Collura. For MONTHS now… a simple Google search has been producing that information.”
It actually doesn’t make any sense to me that all the ‘papers’ that are scheduled to be presented at this conference have ALREADY been ‘published’ as a simple ‘Google Book’ that anyone can just ‘Preview’ and READ.
But that’s what has happened…
Proceedings of the AHFE 2019 International Conference on Human Error, Reliability, Resilience, and Performance, July 24-28, 2019, Washington D.C., USA.
https://books.google.com/books?id=-yGbDwAAQBAJ
The AHFE actually makes its MONEY from attendance/registration fees, so it just doesn’t make any sense they would just PUBLISH all the papers that will be presented there BEFORE the conference.
Whatever. They did… for whatever reasons.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> if you noted I opted in on a non Wildland style conference. I never stated
>> “exactly” where or when and that was to protect certain people to be
>> present. My take in this was to get the right folks in the audiences and
>> on that stage-
See above.
Now that the ‘papers’ have all been published BEFORE the conference even starts… there isn’t much reason for ANYONE to actually ‘be present’ or ‘be in the audience’.
Anyone can now just READ the papers online BEFORE the conference.
Weird.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Plus they do not like the piranha style of questions so quick and too many
>> questions at once… they are new to the site. They are trying to get a feel
>> to the forum world.
Well… when someone’s very FIRST post to this forum actually BEGINS with “I am here to answer your questions”… we can only take them at their word and assume they are already fully prepared to do just that.
Query/Response/Discussion is what DRIVES a fact-finding forum like this.
It should not take anyone more than a few minutes to figure that out.
I hear ya, Wtktt but I was not aware of the content until I meet with RTS mid Summer/July to go over the presentation in person so I was learning about areas too for the first time because I only have in my email the abstract part so when someone alerted me last night from IM that it was on here…I also agree that if the content is there then why go except there is added surprises happening behind the scenes to areas not shown in that paper I read…so…
And for Gary- I have had more people impressed that I know as much as I know about the Wildland Fire Industry … Joe Domitrovich, Ph.D./Joe Sol, M.S.National T&D Program taught me that Driving, Operational Stakes and Staging take up most a Crews time and energy while mopping, hiking, line construction is half the time and energy. When I walk away from YH FIre – I saw just that MORE ENERGY from the GMHS was their drive there – the hike up and just standing around staging…Donut knows the work was minimal on those Weavers yet Sonny said that morning as we passed these men had the look they were on their death march so tell me Gary – you respect Sonny – how do you explain a man who never met the GMHS and his first thought was that as we passed by…should they have even be up on those Weavers? Should they have placed Rance M. near Marsh when there was a situation on the Doce? Let us start with the men even going on the Weavers…if you were IC; would you have placed the GMHS on the Weavers?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 9, 2019 at 12:19 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I also agree that if the content is there then why go except there
>> is added surprises happening behind the scenes to areas not
>> shown in that paper I read…so…
So… are you saying there are some kind of already-scheduled ‘sidebars’ that are going to happen at this upcoming conference where these ‘surprises’ will be revealed?
Things that are NOT even in the ‘paper’?
Will the people who attend these ‘sidebars’ then be free to talk about these ‘surprises’, once they are ‘revealed’?
I’m just curious.
So… are you saying there are some kind of already-scheduled ‘sidebars’ that are going to happen at this upcoming conference where these ‘surprises’ will be revealed? THAT WAS MY PARTICIPATION TO THIS CONFERENCE YET MR. SCHOEFFLER HAD TO AGREE NOT TO SHARE THIS PAPER TO ANYONE UNTIL AFTER THE CONFERENCE SO I WOULD FEEL AT EASE AS WELL AS OTHERS- “ABSTRACT” WAS OK TO SOME BEHIND THE SCENES WE HAD A TRUSTED BUT NOT THE FULL CONTENT AS YOU PRESENTED AND SAID HAS FULLY BEEN AVAIALBLE FOR MONTHS WHEN WE
JUST GOT ACCESS ON Thursday, July 4, 2019 8:19 PM
. I EMAILED THEM TO ASK HOW THAT WAS POSSIBLE THAT THE ENTIRE BOOK IS ALLOWED TO BE SEEN THIS EARLY WHEN IN MY EMAIL I AM ONLY ALLOWED AUTHOR ACCESS JUST DAYS AGO- I AM CONFUSED. I AM NOT COMFORTABLE AND WILL RE-ROUTE THE PLAN TO A NEW PLATFORM SO NOW TO ANSWER YOU IT “WAS” MY INTENT BUT NO LONGER- FOR SAFETY MATTERS-
Things that are NOT even in the ‘paper’? WRONG – THINGS TO BACK UP THIS PAPER 100%.
Will the people who attend these ‘sidebars’ then be free to talk about these ‘surprises’, once they are ‘revealed’? OH YES, I WAS WANTING IT TO BE AT THAT PLATFORM AND MY HOPES WAS TO SEE CHANGE THAT WOULD HELP SOME HEAL-
I’m just curious.
NO PROBLEM- ASK AWAY. YOU KNOW I ENCOURAGE CHALLENGES AND QUESTIONS…IF I CANNOT ANSWER I USUALLY TELL YOU IF YOU ARE ABLE TO PULL A RECORD OR IF I LEARNED BEING TRAINED UP—OR….
THE AHFE REPLIED:
Tuesday, July 9, 2019 3:59 PM
This is google books and Springer books. Google books provide access randomly to select pages this book was posted by Springer not an author.
There is nothing wrong here. its review book as part of the publication
Best,
AHFE Support
SO I AM TO ASSUME YOU ONLY GET TO REVIEW PARTIAL OF THE PRESENTATION- IS THAT RIGHT?
I GUESS FRED CAN ANSWER THAT SINCE HE HAS THE ORIGINAL AND IF THE LINKS SHOWN ARE PARTIAL OR ALL OF IT???- TIME WILL TELL…I WON’T SEE HIM ANYTIME SOON…BUT WHEN I DO I WILL ASK.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on
July 9, 2019 at 4:06 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> THE FULL CONTENT AS YOU PRESENTED AND
>> SAID HAS FULLY BEEN AVAIALBLE FOR MONTHS
I am not sure how long the actual BOOK containing FULL copies of ALL the papers being presented at the 2019 AHFE conference has been available ‘online’. Might have been months… or maybe just weeks. Dunno.
What has DEFINITELY been online for MONTHS is the entire SCHEDULE for this upcoming AHFE conference… along with the TITLES of all the papers, the full list of authors, and exactly where and when each paper is scheduled to be ‘presented’.
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> THE AHFE REPLIED:
>> Tuesday, July 9, 2019 3:59 PM
>> This is google books and Springer books.
>> Google books provide access randomly to
>> select pages this book was posted by
>> Springer not an author.
>> There is nothing wrong here. its review
>> book as part of the publication
>> Best, AHFE Support
>>
>> SO I AM TO ASSUME YOU ONLY GET TO
>> REVIEW PARTIAL OF THE PRESENTATION-
>> IS THAT RIGHT?
There MAY be a few pages ‘held back’ from the Google Books preview… but not many.
But regardless… the BOOK that now contains ALL of the ‘papers’ from the conference is available for DOWNLOAD right away… if you want to read ALL of them.
Google doesn’t actually SELL books.
What happens on Google Books is that if you click on ‘Get Book’, it then lists a page of ALL the places that ARE currently SELLING it, and/or allowing it be immediately downloaded… and you can compare prices.
If you click that link on this 2019 AHFE Book… you see that there are already SIX online bookstores already SELLING the actual book…
———————————
Springer Shop
Amazon
Barnes and Noble
Books-A-Million
IndieBound
VitalSource
——————————-
Springer Shop
https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030200367
Buy eBook ( Immediate eBook download after purchase ): $130.89 Euro ( $146.66 in US Dollars )
Springer actually lets you download each individual CHAPTER of the book just in case you don’t even want the whole thing.
They are calling each of the 2019 AHFE ‘papers’ a CHAPTER in the book.
Scroll down a little on that page and it will let you buy just YOUR paper ( and not the whole $130.89 book ).
Your entire paper ( chapter ) only costs $30.19 Euro ( $33.83 in US Dollars ), and can also be downloaded in full, immediately after purchase.
VitalSource
You can immediately purchase and get an ‘eBook’ download right away.
https://www.vitalsource.com/products/advances-in-human-error-reliability-resilience-ronald-l-boring-v9783030200374?duration=perpetual
——————————————————————
Advances in Human Error, Reliability, Resilience, and Performance Proceedings of the AHFE 2019 International Conference on Human Error, Reliability, Resilience, and Performance, July 24-28, 2019, Washington D.C., USA
by: Ronald L. Boring
Publisher: Springer
Print ISBN: 9783030200367, 3030200361
eText ISBN: 9783030200374, 303020037X
Copyright year: 2020
Available from $ 189.00 USD
SKU: 9783030200374
Buy eTextbook (1 Option)
Lifetime Access – Download Book does NOT expire.
$189.00 USD
Add to Cart <<– CLICK HERE TO BUY EBOOK RIGHT AWAY
————————————————————————
Again… I really don’t know why AHFE would be allowing this all to happen so far out ahead of the conference.
It seems counter-productive to getting “butts in the seats” at the upcoming conference itself.
Well I am glad WTKTT is keeping it to the point. If the book is out for $146, you can bet all those of substance on the wild land fire fighting command roster have already got copies and sharing the information–once published like that it is now public. I am not going to pay 146 to read it since it will show up on IM by someones’s design.
Personally I have already established in my mind that the back burns or burn outs had something to do with trapping the men. Perhaps I am wrong but I am looking at the time factor where that fire came close to trapping Joy and I. When we topped out I knew the location of the fire toward Peeples Valley–We should have had more time to spare coming back to my Jalopy. Instead we were in a rush to get out, checking on Penny. That lady, now deceased from cancer was in her 50’s and sprite –should not be dead now–
When we arrived Penny was hysterical–from her house you had a view of the fire eatting up Yarnell and she was screaming to get her animals in my station wagon–cats, dogs and birds and what she thought was important including her pistol.
The smoke was already raining embers on us and J0y has a photo of that and where you could barely see the tail lights only 20 or 30 feet ahead of you. As we passed the Cafe you could tell that it was loaded with fire trucks and firemen.
The nine mile trip down the mountain to Congress was harrowing for most of the was due to smoke and embers–and at the Congress Gas Station there was a roadblock so no one could go up to Yarnell. There we met Penny’s son so she had a place to go with him.
Joy and I had to drive all around to Phoenix to get back to Prescott–so we had to go through Wickenburg.. There the smoke was arleady accumulating and eventually did settle in so breathing was difficullt for some. Many of the Yarnell residents were evacuated to there and found refuge with the help of Red Cross.
We kept going and stopped in Phoenix where Joy was to have one of her last visits with her Dad. He was a large man at 6’9″ and looked fairly healthy-but he was smoking and had used up one lung already so his life was just about over. We had to drive all the way around north out of Phoenix and did get cots in that Gym at the Yavapai College there in Prescott. We did not expect to stay but a couple days but that ran into a week before we could be allowed back into Yarnell.
Joy and I slept on a park bench right near the road block going in. You would think a bunch of Nazis were running things cause they were not allowing any press in despite the freedom of the press. The excuse was that people did not want their ruined homes shown publicly,.
I was detained because I was going to let a press guy tie a camera on my car and I was going to give them a shot of what Yarnell looked like after the fire. I was told I would be arrested if I went in with the camera–I was arguing the first amendment rights but the camera man came and took off the camera saying he did not want me detained.
Obviously Fema has people under their thumb–and the cover up even extends to freedom of the press and removing first amendment rights from the people. They are very good at giving people excuses–and now that I know how much they faked evidence and committed crimes by both commission and omission at Yarnell I am seeing that the American Public really needs to take a good look at nefarious methods used in covering up the reasons for fire fighter deaths and the bungled ways some of these fires are managed.
Very little is said about the question of why a freaking lightning strike in boulders and sparse vegetation reachable in less than half an hour was not immediately controlled. It appears that they idea was to let that fire become a full blown wild fire which is exactly what was done. This did amount the deaths of the 19 and destruction of a third of the structures in Yarnell, and millions of dollars of citizens tax monies expended to play with the wild fire that was never controlled until it eventually burned itself out.
Very little is acknowledged about the effects of the retardant and how it was so profusely dumped about Yarnell so that the environment was so saturated that you could not avoid going through it in any direction. I hope people enjoy the vivid photographs because that is all you get besides the many deaths it caused at Yarnell. There are no fish in the area to kill such as the hundreds of thousands of fish this crap has killed in Florida, California and anywhere it is dumped and once in water ways–research the miles of dead zones it has created where nothing lives but the poisonous red algae.
So you sight seers enjoy the view if you can knowing what you are really seeing are dead bodies, dead ocean zones and dead fish and aquatic life.
I purchased a gaming computer, rather expensive but I like something that responds quickly as I type–my brain is a slow one but beats the 50 words of so I can type per minute. I did buy some $160 dragon thing that only works on Windows but that freaking windows with all it nuisances of breaking down, needing virus protection, and when I paid some scammer $29 to take care of windows and my computer to keep things working properly instead they screwed up this computer so windows now would no longer boot properly and would not shut down. Welll a call to these people, since this computer was only about a week old and they now wanted $250 for a year to fix it and $600 for five years.
I said hell I will buy another computer for that much–this one now would not boot and playing with the bios, etc could not even get windows to reinstall or ubuntu. So on the cheaper secondary computer I did take the SSD hard drive I had purchased out of the gaming computer and with the cheapie computer was able to erase windows altogether and install Linux Mint.
Low and behold now I reinstalled this hard drive with Linux and so happy–I got my speedster back–do not have to wait till the computer catches up to my typing or thoughts. These new SSD’s and this one is 1TB are fast and hooked to a fast gaming computer they do the job and Linux has refreshed my attitude–it needs no firewall, virus protection–unless you opt for it–but Linux is not the problems people have with Windows. Google however is getting to be a problem of privacy invasion–Firefox some better–but there are bound to be better browsers that keep the crap off your browsing–worse with google–now if I want to know something you get about ten sites instead of getting to what you want to know. So scammers are not only in the FS, Retardant Monguls but just about everywhere.
Thanks to WTKTT for giving advice on such things as how to locate or work the system to better efficiency. The age of knowledge is here with both good and bad–the good of course is we can find the truth–the bad is that scammers are able to use knowledge to their advantage.
It is damn sad to know the health conditions of Gary and others here–nothing funny living with COPD.. Since the fire my health went down like a lead sinker–and that began first with lung and breathing issues–why I was seeing a cardiologist–well there were two at the VA in Prescott that looked me over and prescribed nitro pills then I fell dead in the parking lot outside their office in Prescott.
Joy said I was out several days and did what I had signed and requested some time ago–take me off life support–she ordered it since I had her as responsible for decisions if I could not respond–and presto I came to life again. I was assigned to Hospice and could not get out of bed without a half dozen nurses running in to my bed side. They have the bed wired some how so if you get off the thing alarms the main desk.
I am one to take a shower every day–but there they were saving water and only allowed one every other day and I don’t like a nurse standing there male of female while i have a shower. So a few days of that and I called Mark, my RN son out of Las Cruces and he made the long drive up–I was escaping lock down–if I was that close to death it was going to be in my cabin at Yarnell.
He was able to convince the head nurse to let me out and he got me to my little 4×4 and I left Prescott like a bat out of hell. Of course it took some weeks at home to be able to do much beyond getting out of bed to eat and shower but life did improve enough until more heart attacks, stents and so on.
Eventually I could get back to Aguila and built some pole barns–Joy helped on that and we tore down a huge pole barn in Phoenix that a billionaire had wanted gone–it had aged so he wanted a new one and gave that old one away to anyone willing to get it down. He did not believe we had the capability but Joy is convincing and said believe me Sonny can do it and I will help. So after many trips between Phoenix and Aguila that barn was moved and we left his place an open space of land.
It took me some months but I did get it erected on that 5 acres near Aquila, AZ. I hope it is still there–Joy had arranged to help that young lady whose husband had killed himself (a bad hernia problem got him down) by putting a 45 bullet in his head. I certainly agreed to her staying there free and maybe she is still there.
Joy by the way as dingy as she sometimes may seem–women do get emotional at times–well we all can–has been a personal help to many people–and I have seen her in action. She deserves the good person award for freely giving her time especially to older people in need. It was quite often she would clean yards, do errands, or console people suffering the losses we saw at Yarnell. She had me making trips in that ton truck I had loaded with goods from the Red Cross and donations from the Good people of Prescott and around the world.
Tons of things were delivered to a United Way warehouse at Prescott but many people could not get things like refrigerators, stoves, and furniture without us delivering in our truck. So if they saw something they needed they would put their name on it and we would come load it and deliver to their home.
Not enough can be said about the goodness of the American People to help in a tragedy such as was seen at Yarnell. They step up to help where they can.
I am OK now, doing fine considering my own situation–who the hell has his dog shoot him in the back out 25 miles from no where, bleeds out with a clavical shatter, lung punctured with a twelve guage and three ribs broken then bleeds out 6 units of blood and dies before getting to the trauma table. That must have been a bloody helicopter and I know as I was dragged out from under my truck there was plenty blood on the ground. If you think the Irish Gods aren’t hanging around with Old Jesus then something was working that day.
I smile at all that cause here I am with another day at hand. I have to wake up with a top attitude since waking up above ground is always a good day. If you ask how goes my day the answer is not bad for a miner. And you have to say that if you are a wild land fire fighter-
-I know because too many of those old wild land fire fighters are now fighting for their lives. I know damn well Gary only posts because he wants the young ones to know what they face and the importance of the filters to keep the chemicalized smoke out of their lungs.
For certain these corporations that disperse these chemicals that have many dangerous ones in the slurry are not going to inform the people involved of the eventual destruction of health from such. They damn sure do not want their money tree trimmed and are willing to sacrifice human life and health, create ocean dead zones, kill hundreds of thousands of fish, and pollute environment and water sources–even underground ones without even batting an eye.
You only have to look at the extreme death and illness count in Yarnell after the slurry pollution to know something is more than just fishy. You go to YouTube and look at the dead zones and literally hundreds of thousands of dead fish along the Florida rivers and Coasts to see the environmental damage of the very chemicals dispersed in PhosChek and other retardants.
But these companies are street smart–they know the general public will not research these things and unless the media makes a big thing about it, nothing will be done. They can continue to sing loudly how wonderful this pollution is–this is is a save inert substance saving property, forests and lives–while knowing exactly what this orange crap is doing. They are selling a bill of goods keeping their coffers full while putting people in coffins.
Now you might say old Sonny’s opinions are a bit strong. But if you don’t get angry at seeing how many fire fighters are sick from this shit in their senior years then you have been brainwashed by the propaganda that these companies and certain FS officials backing them want you to believe.
Do the research–it will turn your stomach to know how many good citizens are ill–to watch people setting on the beach with thousands of dead fish around them and holding their noses from the stench.
In my opinion we have some real villains on the loose–not only covering up such bungling as they do in Yarnell and other wild land death occurrences, but in the cover up of actual damage to human health and environment their expensive ($3 a pound) retardant is doing.
To give you an idea of how lucrative this phosphate business is, Mosaic one of the companies involved in polluting the environment is willingly paying 2 billion over time to do EPA environmental clean up. Two billion is some sort of chump change to them, cost of doing business but the environment problems such as dead zones or polluted water tables and sources are irreversible.
That is just one mining company doing damage–there are 26 mines with most abandoned and 9 still active in Florida alone. It is not hard to understand the damage caused by the nation wide continual distribution of environmental pollution by phosphate and other chemicals involved–many secreted to the public.
If you think PhosChek is a good thing in your back yard, you are badly misinformed.
I should think some do not understand–the two billion Mosiac pays will not come out of their pocket. It will come out of the tax payer since the flow of PhosChek and other chemicals will not slow–but the price will cost more–these companies just charge more to make up the difference and the tax payer is none the wiser because most of them only get to see the orange photos and the propaganda that this stuff is great for their safety and as inert as a frog frozen in ice.
Something that bothers the hell out of me is the fact that the FS and their Chemical Corporation friends can dump secret chemicals upon our environmen so that we are in contact with these in the air and even in our water ways.
C-8 is a chemical used in making Teflon but also a host of other products. It is a terrible chemical causing birth defects in child birth and god only knows what else–so many have died who have worked around it in the 50 and above range–yet Du Pont was dumping the waste from it by the tons into the rivers .
This had been going on for years until a farmer and a few others began investigation. He lost his whole heard of 150 cattle within a year from the waste water that DuPont had channeled across his property to a stream.
When checked upon by a lawyer, DuPont had known this chemicas (C-8 a flourocarbon) had caused scarring of the eyes in rats and other defects in their experiments way back in the 50’s when I was still in grade school. Yet they continued to pollute the land and rivers for decades without informing the public.
Those farmers by the way did get a secret settlement–but they both died soon after in their 60’s–cancer on both.
It is now known that C-8 is in the blood of 99% of the people on this planet. It is a chemical that does not break down in the body and remains until death. It is also an accumulative chemical–the more you get exposed the more will be in your system and never leaves. This is a PBS Documentary–The Devil we’ve known. and another Netflix thing but rather boring yet informative.
Informative because these big companies disperse their chemicals with no intention of ever revealing what they are or what they do to health. But the fact that they can get away with dumping unknown chemicals on us. and our environment is a crime without a law.
I already know the disastrous effects upon people, environment, fish and ocean dead zones from the known ones but what the hell are they adding to this poison slurry? Who can understand how in America they can get away with their criminal behavior?
Perhaps the lead we have been getting has dummed us down to so many zombie creatures never protesting but ever trusting our masters.
Due to my tunnel vision, I am not one to visit other sites concerning the Yarnell Fire. However, to understand the tragedy at Yarnell, if you were not there as I was, it is imperative to visit Joy Collura, The Arizona Desert Walker’s web site.
Joy has spent a tremendous amount of time and energy putting that site together–it is a crucial addition to Investigative Media because it contains information and material you will not find here.
Most important are the photographs that help immortalize the tragedy of the deaths of the 19 Granite Mountain Hot Shots. There you will find the photographs that Joy has painstakingly assembled to give a visual story of what caused the deaths.
There are many interesting and related photos not to be found anywhere but there. But I would like to point out a couple that anyone new must see in order to understand the situation.
One involves the chute that extends from the Shrine Canyon straight up to the death site. Now we understand the interest of WTKTT and others as to the exact time of the burn at the Shrine. That chute is diagonal to the Shrine Canyon and choke full of dehydrated vegetation–mostly manzanita but with other grasses and shrubbery included.
Someone of wild land fire smarts has more or less outlined the chute with stick like marks–but you can easily make out the chute without them. The chute actually comes off the Shrine Canyon at a diagonal, but that diagonal was more or less the wind direction. And of course a chute directs the wind and funnels it at an increased velocity which is even more drastically increased by the slope up into the box death canyon.
Harold had wondered how they would have missed seeing the burn in the Shrine area. I believe they did see it although the Shrine Canyon is deep and that fire would have to jump out of that canyon into that chute.
The next photo that will continue to explain this and is of such historical value is the actual photo of the vegetaiton at the death site on the very day we struggled through it on the way to the fire edge still in the boulders at the top of the Weaver Range. The after photos show that you could have never known what had been a canyon choke full of vegetation is now a moon surface shot.
There are many other photos that Joy took and posted. Also of importance to see is the fire in the boulders showing why Marsh could cross the fire edge so many times with no harm. It also might give you an idea of how those men should have survived had they taken to the big boulder field about 70 yards south of them instead of attempting to deploy in the flimsy fire blankets.
Joy deserves much praise for her site and the huge amount of photographic evidence she has amassed on her site. Those historical events would have been lost to posterity had she not been on that mountain with her camera and the luck of the Irish getting those and ourselves out in the nick of time.
I had not known the significance until I had recently visited there–thanks Joy.
This is conjecture but sensible–the reason Steed vehemently argued with Marsh about descending into the death trap was because Steed was aware of the other burns being applied. Marsh would have known as well.
And that was also another good reason for the investigators to want to say that communications were dead for half an hour or so or at least Willis was parroting what he was told to say at the fence right after and to media.
Too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence–so I better go rabbit hunting–my boys ain’t had a rabbit in a while and are giving me a evil eye when i dispersed dog food this morning
Back from my rabbit hunt–2 roasted rabbits and the boys are happy. The desert is loaded with mesquite beans here -you can survive on them and once you acquire a taste for them it is hard to stop chewing them. This Rio Grande Valley and River have been here for hundreds of thousands pf years and you can bet those early tribes took full advantage of it and did their hunting miles away from the river as well. I always see evidence on my hunting trips and now the rabbits are plenty and rains have provided. If you were to hike the desert now would be the time.
So I do owe Norb an apology? I might have made it look like he was down in health but do not take it that way–if he has any effects from the retardant he has not let it stop his physical activities. Norb is a retired superintendent of wild land fire crews–I believe he had two crews- and they all survived his many years as a wild land fire boss.
Joy and I had the honor of his staying in his motor home next the cabin for some days. He still makes the long pilgrimage from Lake Tahoe to Yarnell and hikes there to honor the fallen GMHS crew.
Norb also was one of the people that had seen the firing videos at the Shrine before the video was removed from public view. Too bad we do not know who removed the video–it would be interesting to know why it was done. Maybe the same person that removed the document that was posted, sealed and dated by a FS honcho setting that section or half next to Helms as the highest fire danger and restricted. By coincidence it turned out to be the very death trap for the GMHS crew.
So my apology Norb–and you are always welcome if you get this far on your trips.
Sonny,
This was a convenient place to post this quote from WW II General George C. Marshall. With very little imagination, one should be able to discern his quote as analogous to wildland firefighting.
While instructing at the Infantry School at Fort Benning, Georgia stated in one of his lectures:
“Picture the opening campaign of a [Wildland Fire] war. It is a cloud of uncertainties, haste, rapid movements, congestion on the roads, strange terrain, lack of ammunition [drip torch fuel, fusees, very pistol rounds] and supplies at the right place at the right moment, failures of communications, terrific tests of endurance, and misunderstandings in direct proportion to the inexperience of the officers [WFs, FFs, IMTs, and others] and the aggressive action of the enemy [Fire].”
George Washington’s First War His Early Military Adventures by David A. Clary. 352 pp. Simon & Schuster, 2011.
The quote is from Chapter Five – “Join Your French Father and Help Him Crush the Assassins”
You posted: several of you had witnessed the YH Fire Sesame and Shrine Corridor firing video that was “removed from public view. Too bad we do not know who removed the video–it would be interesting to know why it was done.”
Maybe someday we will know know who actually removed the video. There are very likely other copies similar to what you all watched elsewhere in the hands of FFs, WFs, and others that were on the YH Fire on June 30, 2013.
And I think we know good and why it was done. Like everything else dealing with the clear and convincing evidence of the YH Fire … it’s disappeared or told that it doesn’t exist or something similar.
To support the SAIT-SAIR lies they stated six times the following:
“Because we do not know, and will never know, many of the precise details surrounding the final movements and motivations of the Granite Mountain IHC …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 45)
“Although we will never know for sure, we considered how the Granite Mountain IHC might have reasoned …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 47)
“Although we will never know the answer to this question, it is worth asking: …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 48)
“We will never know for sure, but we wondered whether the Granite Mountain IHC’s decision to hike through the green might have seemed to them to be a decision to operate in the green just like everyone else.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 52)
“We will never know if the crew understood that this route of travel required that they sacrifice some of their capacity to serve as their own lookouts.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54)
“We will also never know if they understood the calculated risk involved in traversing the final distance to the Ranch without the level of situational awareness that a different vantage point might have afforded.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54)
The Shrine was definetly a burn area we now know.
However the description DND gives points to the Sesame Street Dirt Road which would be anywhere from the 3500 to 5600 ft. mentioned by DNA–Shit they were putting in a trap for the GMHS and did not know it. The boss that ordered that Captain to do that burn had to be consulting with Marsh as well and I would have to believe the radio channels are where all could hear.
Now when Donut said there was embers crossing the road on the way out I can see why. If those were type 3 engines–then are those structure engines– There are only two roads where those could be manipulated–one would be Sesame street dirt road–what I understand DND to be describing or else the road directly to the Helms. The western edge of Sesame would make sense for someone to do a burn but then that certainly would trap those GMHS—Now I understand the lawyer up part. But then it would be the man ordering the burns at fault–not the Captain ordered to do them–he was not informed that GMHS crew was directly above I would believe–this is very serious and is just beginning to make more sense even to Joy and me escaping in the nick of time.
They would be also firing the chute that is part of the death canyon. So it is damn sad that these men were told to do something they had no knowledge of the terrible consequences to a crew that was in a position it should never have been in the first place.
All this comfort zone talk and someone beside Marsh wanting the men down speaks of why not only videos were removed but communications denied even when they were intact. This stinks to high heaven.
RTS poste this quote:
“Because we do not know, and will never know, many of the precise details surrounding the final movements and motivations of the Granite Mountain IHC …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 45)
Hell with all the redactions and removal of videos, mum orders and threats to people with details, no one could know for sure what happened. Of course they did not mention that–they had written the narrative and any information or person refuting the fiction was either redacted, changed or threatened with mum orders and even petty Judicial actions.
It is amazing how even 6 years after there are so many believing the lies and so few brave enough to tell the truth. The people involved at Yarnell are considered to be the most upright–what happened to their scruples?
Charlie,
My point is there are MANY people, WFs, FFs, and IMT folks that DO know.
The fact that they are so arrogantly saying it SIX times means to me that they were so convinced that we would just drink the YH Fire Kool-aid and walk away … “nothing to see here … just move along”
And it also means to me that they may very well go out of their way to ensure that it remains unknown.
Ephesians 6:12 comes to mind: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
SCARY. Plenty of that going on
___thank you Sonny-
Your own son Ted inspires me to keep going…or in my thoughts I think about how you reach our 19 Memorial Rocks that has been destroyed since and you truly broke down each time and you truly want the answers to the front and hopefully in time and in your lifetime you will get that chance…
Have a Sun Splasher today and remember I am forever grateful for our trail times.
You are the best!
Joy-one of your best sayings that stuck with me when I was working on that pole barn and property at Aguila (soon after I had that heart attack)–You said well if you don’t get to enjoy this then someone following you will. You said sometimes we do things that is really meant to help others.
I would say if you quit tomorrow you would have done plenty in the line of helping others. But I know you are in it for the long haul.
Thanks Joy since Ted was always an example to the younger ones–He was the oldest and filled the role as he should have.
He was the one boy that the mom could not influence–he was already in the Navy–
I had helped him put a Windsor V8 in that six cylinder 65 Mustang convertible he drove.. Mark still has the car in his garage.
We had a very good understanding and rapport–but Ted was one of those unusual individuals that anyone whom he met almost instantly became his friend.
He was a kind heart and at the same time doing things he loved to do. Underwater diving was his great enjoyment–the loss of that arm was a heart breaker but there he went right off to engineering school to take on new challenges.
He was quite the good example of how to be and live.
? how i came up with that? WTKTT name of documentary is Poisoned Water–a Nova doc
Got it. Thank you.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/poisoned-water/
Thanks for posting that WTKTT–some might to want to know you can be prosecuted for withholding, falsifying and the like in a civil situation –that was a water cover up situation–so I have to believe the gravity of 19 deaths is similar.
That was an error on my part and WTKTT caught it. The documentary about the lead in water, etc. is called Poison Water for any that want to see it –I got it in documentaries put out by Nova–Netflix had it.
That gal kind of reminded me of Joy and others here–she did not give up but pursued it until she got results and clean water. But it did expose some VIP’s similar to this situation of the 19 GMHS deaths.
I am certain there are a few people who would have gladly stepped on my air hose when I was on life support in Prescott and more probably after the years had left the Prescott area and was again hooked up after Charlie, my dog had shot me.
Joy had said those 19 GMHS need a voice–and DR.Ted with his psychology bat hides says about half the loved ones don’t want to hear it. They just want to accept the smooth boat of follow the official report without question, take those monies and go on. That is why I have said it could be 19 years before the truth of the 19 deaths is revealed. It may take the children of the loved ones searching for the truth–they will not stand back when they come of age–they will want to know those facts–just as Gary still is searching about his Dad.
And I understand that–say I actually did marry 6 or 7 times if you consider all of them marriages–the last one was a two week situation after my son died. But of those six other wives I do know some –at least one I know of would have gladly stood on my air hose. She had a lot of fire–and never could understand the tramp miner’s way of life–well she was not the only one.
You know, similar to the wild land fire fighter I would take jobs far away from home. Once the kids grew up to have to stay in school I had to establish a home–that was Las Cruces because that was where the lady preferred–her brothers in the immediate area and that was a good thing. The mines, even the Uranium mines are in northern NM and Las Cruces in the far south with NM a large state, especially North to South. You just did not come home except weekends and sometimes that was only a day if you did a weekend shift.
That does not always make for a happy home life-and you miss out a lot on what your kids are doing in school. She never could understand even after I could manage a half way house, and do the counseling thing that I would not attend the cocktail parties, hob nob with the elite so to speak and be the guy with shiney shoes and tie all the time.. My off time was sighting in a rifle or out in the woods gathering firewood for the winter. So when divorce time came I left a home I had purchased from my inheritance money for a hundred grand–that put you in the neighbor hood that she liked in those days–next to the golf course and with a doctor on one side and a lawyer on the other you were in classville.
Now do not get me wrong–I can fit in that way and have but the coctail stuff for me would have been in a cow boy bar at Blondies place–now closed since it got too rowdy. And I am not a rowdy person and most of the time people in those places are not but if someone wants a fight they are sure to get it. I have a special heart for the working stiff–I have been one most of my life.
But the point is not all women get that type life and looking at how the wild land fire fighter has to attend to business I might understand how that many wives are not particularly interested in pursuing the truth even if they know the investigation was a farce. But contrary to those, you will see that their children will want to know the truth of matters.
Likewise, the wild land fire fighters are not happy because they realize it may be them next. When someone can get by with what we saw at Yarnell then who is the next boss allowed or ordered to needlessly break safety procedures that will kill his crew.
That is why someone here said be real careful of the boss you pick. But I doubt a young man would have a choice–sort of like the Army when I asked to be dropped off in the middle of the gooks (then the term was acceptable) I was told we give the fucking orders and you go where we tell you to. And of course the famous words if we need any shit out of you we will squeeze your god damned head.
A little of that and you get the point and since the wild land fire fighter must strictly obey orders on a daily basis–the shit hits the fan when he does not.
Well the gist of it is, my kids love me despite all efforts from that particular lady to make me out as the worst of the worst–they found that their Dad to them is a unique individual they can be proud of. I do respect the working man as much as any one–even a priest or a Queen–but then I am an Irish decendent–probably a bog Irish at that–my progenitors wee farmers and many of my relatives still are.
My Dad became a musician, roamer, businessman and finally his love, a miner. But I can tell you the beautiful woman he married and who stayed with him for fifty years did not want to be buried anywhere near him. Women do not take to the mining life–especially the way he did it in tents, living isolated for months and years at a time and happy with beans and potatoes and brogans. He was damn happy with life, but you can see Mom was just tolerating it.
Now a days the ladies don’t hang around if things are too rought for them–the divorce rate is well over 50% and there are plenty of fish in the sea. So you can see the wild land fire fighter situation is similar–another reason they ought to get some more pay–it is more often than not a sacrifice to a happy home life–though some ladies are happy with the man gone most of the time, on call in a moments notice and having to enjoy himself with the boys at the bar.
And with all that it sums up something–do not expect even a good portion of the wives to be wanting to delve into the truth–or even some of the parents. These guys are portrayed as heroes and rightly so except in a couple instances–but some do not want the truth out even there. They are happy to go on with life –no ripples please to remind them of the tragedy.
Yet despite all the objections there is only one course to take–the true one. The selfish reasons for keeping the truth under cover do not outweigh the safety of future wild land fire fighters. Even if there is only one life saved because of necessary changes it is worth the changes–a life can not be measured in dollars nor can the cost be justified because some one wants to maintain a clean reputation.
Of course these are my own opinions and I now longer have an air hose to step on.
Reply to Charlie post on July 12, 2019 at 4:18 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> There is only one course to take–the true one.
>>
>> The selfish reasons for keeping the truth under
>> cover do not outweigh the safety of future wild
>> land fire fighters. Even if there is only one life
>> saved because of necessary changes it is worth
>> the changes–a life can not be measured in dollars
>> nor can the cost be justified because some
>> one wants to maintain a clean reputation.
I agree. 100 percent.
Sonny,
I agree as well.
Here’s a December 5, 2015, Huffington Post article by contributor Terry Newell, President of Leadership for a Responsible Society.
His article is titled: “Feelings Are Not Facts: A Dangerous Confusion”
( https://www.huffpost.com/entry/feelings-are-not-facts-a_b_8726718 )
Some interesting bullets and statements include:
“Some things you just know in your gut. But feelings are not facts, and when we confuse them, we get sloppy thinking at best and dangerous action at worst. Simply put, our judgments are not justified.”
“A fact is a piece of data subject to objective, independent, and sometimes scientific verification. A feeling doesn’t have to meet any of these tests. We’re all entitled to our feelings, but facts exist outside of us. As Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan put in years ago, ‘Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.’”
“When we treat feelings as facts, we eliminate the need to test our conclusions.”
“When we treat feelings as facts, we use those feelings to selectively look for facts to back us up.” He refers to this as “cherry-picking facts to support a predetermined outcome.”
In experiments with two different groups reading the same report, he states that “They all read the same report, but their feelings led them to focus on the facts they wanted to find.”
“Perhaps even worse, sometimes our feelings make us unwilling to even gather facts.”
He suggests that “for everyday thinking is that we often make a decision based on our feelings and then use our reason to rationalize the decisions our emotions have already arrived at. Feelings call forth the facts they need.”
“When we treat feelings as facts, we are also prone to treat those who see the world differently as stupid, mean-spirited, or the enemy. When they disagree, they threaten our sense of self. We treat that as a putdown. …”
“For all these reasons, feelings can gain greater ascendancy over facts as time goes on, making us more extreme and more certain in our views. Our society and our politics become more polarized, and we forget that there are facts we ignore. We literally cannot see them.”
“But when we act on feelings alone, as if they are facts, we have only half of what we need …”
Yes indeed. I cite others that have done the research on specific topics rather than spout my opinions and feelings as facts. And if you GTS this topic you will find numerous articles and a lot of research on the subject
Yes a good post–thought I said that. Women have the best intuition but it is needful to back it with facts. I have hunches but usually list them that way–opinions someone told me are like assholes –everyone has one. So it is the facts and the mumbling you posted explaining the reason the men got in the green and trapped by the fire gods was opinions they wanted us to have. So to my way of thinking they were types of disinformation and attempts to lead people away from the facts.
Wow,
From being reviewed to erased, BS
Reply to Downhillndirect (DHD) post on July 10, 2019 at 10:16 pm
>> DHD said…
>>
>> Wow,
>>
>> From being reviewed to erased, BS
Huh?
The ‘channel’ is still wide, open, sir.
DHD–if you write something it is wise to copy and paste somewhere I use my email if I want to keep what I wrote–this site will review you then erase if you do not have every little detail right like email name, and do the captcha and even then sometimes will erase. So after I caught on all the posts losts I started keeping a copy.
something I should clear up I mentioned Joy can get a bit dingy–we all can at times when we hit our thumbs with a hammer–something i have done a few. But she is a solid person until someone hits her thumb. I consider everyone one here as solid, we have our quirks–and that is a given–you hit my thumb and I might hit back with a sledge. But not the best thing to do here is to keep in mind the ultimate goal.
All the people on this site are most honorable persons. Their participation requires that. Anyone seeking the facts that are so obviously buried in order for a few to keep their reputations are good people. The reason and truth of what caused the deaths of 19 GMHS has been dishonorably hidden. Those men that died should not die in vain–to a man, even after some grievous errors on managements part, those men would want every detail and reason for their deaths out. The dead can not speak loudly but those on this site have been working hard to reveal the truth.
While it is true some have different ideas and methods to bring forth new information, the goal remains the same. Thank all of you –I do wish I had more ability and wisdom to share–but some of you do and if not now in time it will surface. We have been at this six years–and if it takes six more which it likely will, then so be it. We would feel like deserters to the cause if we quit now. Those men deserve our voice.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ebTiBTfMkHU
Long Black Train ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyRZTAmcW7c )
“Former Prineville Hotshots member Alex Robertson survived the South Canyon Fire tragedy and is now is [sic] the fire and aviation staff officer for an interagency fire office in Oregon. He said he has brought more than 1,000 firefighters to Storm King Memorial Trail to learn the lessons of the fire.”
“The challenge we have is that we cannot just not fight fire, we can’t not put people in harm’s way,” Robertson said. “If we didn’t fight fires, they would burn up towns, and people would lose lives. The challenge is deciding when it’s necessary to put firefighters in danger, and how.[“]
Do your best to decipher that quadruple negativeiby FMO Robertson, if you can.
( https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2019/07/oregon-firefighters-among-those-honored-25-years-after-deadly-storm-king-mountain-fire.html )
I would have to point out an exception –Yarnell–that fire went through that town same if if there had never been a fire fighter withing a thousand miles. It ate up a third of the town residences just the way any wild fire would with not outside interference at all. Of course I am certain there are many instances where that fact does not hold true. But in Yarnell’s instance it also cost 19 fire fighter lives and the after effects left many residents either sick or dead from the massive slurry dumps.
So, yea–what could have been taken care of with only a few even inexperienced wild land fire fighters or even citizens would have contained ended up in spending millions of dollars, calling out just about every fire fighter in the nation that was available and those experienced wild land fire fighters, all their massive slurry dumps and the most educated and intelligent men were unable to contain or control anything.
If Yarnell was anything it was a genuine failure at wild land fire fighting–maybe the worse case of the century.
I do hope Gary devotes some of his book to the cumulative effects that the smoke and chemicals have especially in senior wild land fire fighters. I believe this information is purposely downplayed and hidden from public view. My experience with senior wild land fire fighters is that they have a myriad of heath problems–something directly related to the occupation. Wild land fire fighters, like miners and others working hard and risky jobs that the government and society demands require special treatment and health care in their senior years.
Perhaps the pay for mining is sufficient but what I see in wild land fire fighting it is not. Healthcare in either for the elders is lacking unless you have been a war time veteran. Those things need to be addressed.
And speaking of the EPA–I had sent a letter to them way back I think sometime after we were noticing the excessive sickness and death at Yarnell. I had began to take notice that these deaths had to be connected to the slurry dumps of 2013 and thereafter. I did get a response but it was to tell me they would not be bothering to investigate my observations.
Well watching a documentary on the Flint, Michigan water pollution where the city water managers were deliberately covering up pollution in the water–especially lead which had risen to over 5000 times the EPA ppm limit I began to understand how political that system really is, and why they turn a blind eye to Yarnell.
Lead in water goes into your bones and also into the brain synapses replacing the calcium that should be there. The lead alters the brain function so that people that suffer lead poisoning during their child hood to adult years are destined to have lower IQ’s–this is a proven study in more than one city–one I was aware of when I was in graduate course at UTEP. The smelter that used to run for decades owned by one of the large mining companies used to spew lead laden smoke in the air. It was found in that one study that I Q which should be at 100 for average ranged 10 less for individuals that had grown up withing a 6 mile radius of that smoke stack. The effect from lead polluted water is the same and a big city study in the Flint area showed an IQ average of only 86.
The point is that the city water managers were saying they were abiding by the EPA standards and had proper filtration in place, etc. The summary is that people were getting ill and especially some children. One lady was told by her doctor that her kids had high levels of lead in the blood. So kind of like Joy, she got her own water testing kit and found her water level as high as 6000 times EPA safe allowance.
She notified one EPA official and he was concerned but said it can be a situational problem- of one home-the water manager reports were fine, etc. But this lady knew others in her community were also getting sick so she notified Barbara Waters and something was said.
The EPA guy started looking into it. But the regional EPA Director declined with records, etc. and shut him down. She made an apology to the Mayor of Flint but the media had caused people to start protests, etc.
Fortunately a scientist dealing in water studies decided to take the thing up using much of his own funds. He produced about 300 samples for studies in a scientific way and all around the city of Flint he found exactly what that lady had been saying.
This time the EPA had to take notice–result was the water was cleaned up, several in water management were faced with criminal charges, the mayor did not get re elected and that EPA regional manager stepped down after the incident.
So it should be no surprise that I got nothing but a limp handed reply to the Yarnell slurry situation.
Forgot to mention– the name of that Documentary was BAD SCIENCE –on Netflix documentaries section.
Are you sure that was the full name of the documentary?
I searched Netflix and can’t find one by that name.
I will check that WTKTT–it has been a while since I saw it.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/#comment-479264
I have been breeched. Please do not call or email or text me until this is resolved. My security alerted me at 9:41am that 2 different locations and 2 computers that are not registered to my online security are accessing me.
again, do not even reach my high secure areas. “PAUSE”
Now I was reading an old chapter for something and I came across Sonny stating a perception that I did not see-
You look at Norb and he was not fit to climb mountains…
He did above and beyond and still goes up there…maybe not as much as Sonny has but indeed many times…I am the one who has difficult times up there.
Again, if you see me on IM alerting you all was safely back to Norm- otherwise do not engage my way because it is being investigated WHO and once resolved I will identify the who HERE.
Friday, July 12, 2019 12:25 PM
Hello,
It sounds like you fell for a scam. We never sent you such an email.
You can tell by very calmly and carefully looking at the email address that sent you that message, which i [email protected]
That is not our official email address but some random person. If you clicked the button they sent you you should change your password immediately.
Best regards,
The ProtonMail Security Team
Sent from ProtonMail, encrypted email based in Switzerland.
————————————–
People:
My email as I shared it to Gilligan to show him- it did not say that email it only showed Protonmail Team so be alert Proton users for SCAM!
That email address belongs to someone named Julian Freitas.
She is ( apparently ) a ‘Makeup Artist’ and ( apparently ) lives in Portugal.
She also has her own domain name of ‘julianf.com’ and her own WEBSITE… which is here…
NOTE: It is SAFE to visit the following website. Nothing bad happens.
http://www.julianaf.com/
The language on her website is Portugese, not straight Spanish.
It says shes does makeup for Fashion, Bridal and Regular ( occasions ).
Whoops. Typo up above.
I left the letter ‘a’ off the end of her first name.
The woman’s name is “Juliana Freitas”… not “Julian Freitas”.
Followup…
In the email address [email protected]… “contato” is not a person with an email box at that ‘julianaf.com’ domain server.
In Portuguese… contato simply means contact
So that email address is just the standard ‘contact’ email box for Juliana Freitas’ domain name of “julianaf.com”.
My apologies Joy to Norb–did not mean that if I said it was wrong. Norb can pick up a Guinness here with me–those vitamins will pick us up every time especially if I look like i do right now when trying to hike any distance.
Joy wrote,
“I along with our key evidence…we dropped out because we kept WHERE we would be a secret so for Gary to name WHERE knowing HOW dangerous it is what we are doing…we all dropped out…Fred is only one attending not even Honda…Gary put us in danger even not going…I will never forgive him for his actions…very calculated hurtful man.
Please do not write on IM to encourage to reach me…I am out of this…
I leave to a safe place today and noone will know where I go not even family or friends…Gary really fucked up the plan
..He is BIG BROTHER literally or a Sasquatch in a human costume…the monster. I said DC and I said conference but never did I say what type of conference or the exact date..or the type of quality audience that is attending some politicians…I will CC Gary this so he too knows he just changed the whole Summer…Hoorah! He will feel real good about that since he truly does not want truth out. So dont mention me again as a source for others to reach…I left at 8am today. I am out. Done. Finito. Gary knew I was ill…there was no reason for him to do this unless he is a part of that bigger package.. Enjoy the teddy bear because I blocked IM the site so I cannot go there…and if he emails they will go right to a file…I have such a sadness his actions gave me…I could see Amanda doing this to me not Gary…not him. Hurt me. Carry on…enjoy life…”
And I say,
Joy…you’re fucking crazy and you were dead to me just as soon as you wrote this,
“it’s disgusting …while you sit in your space trying to grab breathe to live and focus on bullshit versus “gathering the data” yourself and feel better to knock me down when you know I am ill- go figure ( true a-hole you are )…and as Gary said without saying let me say WHO-“
And Fred was dead to me minute he backed you writing this. And you’re right…I knew exactly what I was doing by publishing your plans because you baited me by saying I didn’t have a clue as to what the big picture is. You were wrong…I did know.
I already made the decision I don’t want to know anything you know, because I’m not willing to play your game or pay your price. Everything will come out anyway…it always does and I will work my angle from my website and I don’t need you or Fred to do it.
I was gone long before you…I just came back long enough to give you my goodbye kiss and tell you and Fred exactly what I think of both of you. My 30 year race is over…I won. Nothing will ever change that…I won.
You’re race? It’s never even going to start…so it’s a good thing you quit now, save yourself some money, time and grief. The WLF Community doesn’t need or want you and they will NEVER accept you. Just you know…FYI.
Oh…and one more thing. I didn’t come here to add to my Christmas Card List. Surprise…I’m not a nice guy. The American People never paid me, or wanted me to be a nice guy.
They wanted me to do the jobs they hired me to do and make sure those jobs were done right. Because they either couldn’t do those jobs themselves, or they didn’t want to. I kept my end of the bargain and now the American People are keeping their promises. They won…and now I win.
This story is full of people who lost, but I’m not one of them. Some of those people I may still be able to help by connecting the dots others either can’t see…or refuse to see.
And if I can…I will. But you will have to go to my website for updates on that angle from now on. My training, experience, knowledge, skills, abilities and even my education still belong to those who I served for so long and paid the bills…the American People.
http://www.ourfiregods.com
But as far as Joy and Fred goes…oh, never mind. Neither if you are worth it.
In other words…I shared my medical problems with COPD to as a warning to young wild land firefighters to wear respirators whenever possible.to help them.
Twisting that information around that is so personal and using it as a weapon against me in conjunction with the lie that I am sitting around collecting information for a profit motive isn’t something a good person would ever do.
Joy and Fred aren’t good people. They are fake Bible thumping bad people masquerading as good Christians.
My breathing problems and COPD is something that is way off limits for everyone…especially somebody like Joy who has done NOTHING with her life to date. And Fred…I question all of his motives?
DHD…just in case you missed it, “it’s disgusting …while you sit in your space trying to grab breathe to live and focus on bullshit versus “gathering the data” yourself”
I’m disgusting to Joy while I sit in my space and try to grab air by breathing. It’s kinds disgusting to me too. Taking a shower takes about as much effort as humping it up the mountain used to take. I miss a lot of showers, now that…is disgusting.
How do you think I should feel about it and criticism from anyone…ESPECIALLY somebody like Joy?
Oh…and one more thing. If you follow the exchange in question…you will see that I managed to ignore all of the stupid, offensive and stupid things Joy said, just as I have for years, including the corresponding emails she was sending me at the same time.
What I could NOT tolerate was the verbal diarrhea that spewed and then dribbled out if Fred’s hole in support of Joy. Fred doesn’t get a pass because he isn’t a fucking idiot like Joy is. Fred…I held accountable and took to task.
That’s what I do. Old habits die hard. And sometimes…they don’t die at all. Joy did write something about an old dog. I think she meant me?
Not sure what the big deal is here.
This upcoming 2019 AHFE conference in Washington, D.C. is absolutely no secret.
Hasn’t been for months now… including ALL the ‘papers’ that will be presented there and who the listed AUTHORS are.
Anyone who follows this sort of thing has known for MONTHS that one of the papers that is supposed to be presented there is co-authored by Fred J. Schoeffler, Lance Honda, and Joy A. Collura.
For months now… a simple Google search has been producing that information.
In addition… ALL of the ‘papers’ that are scheduled to be ‘presented’ at this already-fully publicized upcoming AHFE conference have ALREADY BEEN PUBLISHED… including the one that is already known to have been co-authored by Fred J. Schoeffler, Lance Honda, and Joy A. Collura.
You can read ALL of them ( right now ) at just a simple ‘Google Books’ link.
It has a ‘Google Books’ ID of: yGbDwAAQBAJ
The following takes you right to the book itself…
https://books.google.com/books?id=-yGbDwAAQBAJ
The ‘paper’ that is co-authored by Fred J. Schoeffler, Lance Honda, and Joy A. Collura starts on page 26, and the following link takes you right to that page…
https://books.google.com/books?id=-yGbDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA26
—————————————————————————————————-
Proceedings of the AHFE 2019 International Conference on Human Error,
Reliability, Resilience, and Performance, July 24-28, 2019, Washington D.C., USA.
Formerly Unrevealed Public Records Should
Change the Account of What Occurred
on June 30, 2013
Authors: Fred J. Schoeffler, Lance Honda, and Joy A. Collura
( snip – The paper/presentation itself, with photographs )
————————————————————————————————–
In the ‘references’ section for this paper, this ongoing InvestigativeMEDIA Yarnell Fire discussion forum is credit reference 30. Apparently, at the time this reference was added, there were only 26 chapters of the IM Forum. The forum is currently on Chapter 28…
30. Dougherty, J; IM YH Fire I-XXVI;
After reading the absolute Fire spewed from a Man that has decades of fire experience, I gotta say I disappointed in the personal fodder. It not only destroys the team but it kills the legitimacy of this open forum.
If people are getting too close to already known incidents, you’d think everyone would rally around eachother . Today showed me differently. Spewing hatred and negativity does nothing but turn people off from helping. I gotta say the referees were no where to be found.. I’ll hang back to see how this shakes out before I offer things that shook my 25 years in the Fire Service
DHD,
don’t let this bs stop you from letting the truth come out, it needs to.
I agree Bill–maybe this whole purpose was to stop DHD from posting more. This is a public site and open to all to post. Right when things are getting to where some valuable truths are being aired suddenly people are being challenged. Joy has worked so hard getting at the truth. I know they have evidence that they want to present to people that might change things. I don’t know what the evidence is but much of what DND is revealing must be backing their paper.
This is not a time to argue with those contributing or challenging the system or anyone trying to get at the truth. It has been six long years I have followed when I have been able.
I did have a talk with my daughter today–she is a beautiful woman in person and in spirit–proud of who she is and a Dad that is proud as well. I think of the loved ones that lost sons when I talk with her. I mentioned Ted, the son I lost. I never really resolved the reason he is dead though I looked at medical records and police reports. I on one thought think he was murdered–the man involved left within a month after his death and was the only one missing at the funeral that should have been there. It is one of the reasons that the loved ones must have the truth and I want to see that happen. The methods used to cover other cronies backs in the FS is no excuse for denying the truth to those people whom the truth is so important to.
Again I applaud DND for his bravery in revealing what he has and also to Joy for her incessant work at getting at the truth. And my regards to everyone else going at this difficult and daunting task.
I am fighting the system drastically–I ridded myself completely of Windows–tired of feeding Gates and all his minions. Linus Mint works fine and much better in fact since I do not have all those damn pop ups nor do I have to pay someone to keep them off–Linux does it free. I had used Ubuntu Linux for years but always had it where windows could be booted up along side–but that was ten years ago–windows has now gone to hell, easily hacked unless you pay Norton or MaGaffie or some other bloak after your money. I paid 29 for some outfit for windows protection and they screwed up a brand new fast computer I had just purchased–so good by windows.
And I know this is not a political situation but when I saw a photo of Trump and that Korean I though I saw a donkey and a donkey’s ass. I don’t like either one but ain’t America Great–you can free think and do not have to listen to a tyrant if you have a mind not to.
Be careful of what you call someone–it generally takes one to know one. Fortunately here-it is all good and solid people and they can handle a little jousting.
I posted about Jose can you see–actually that was not my joke–I have to give credit to Chuy Garza for that one. I had the Texas Bar in Safford, AZ for a couple years and was mining on the side while my wife ran the bar. Chuy was a regular customer–even ran a tab sometimes up to $200–but always paid up.
He would come up with the damnedest jokes-and he informed me he was a moist back? And I had to ask–Chuy replied well I was born in Loredo, Texas right next to the Rio Grande so I am a moist back.
I never argued the point. But he had that right–he spoke Spanish better than i did and had relatives on both sides of the border.
I’m sorry to disappoint you DHD, maybe you should walk a few yards in my shoes and then tell me how personal it should be and how I should feel about it.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479976
I don’t want or need your pity…but Im not going to tolerate Joys ridicule either.
As far as your information goes…you should do whatever you feel is the right thing to do.
Whoops…left off the important link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xMMQBuMiees
Reply to Downhillndirect (DHD) post on July 8, 2019 at 7:20 pm
>> DHD said…
>>
>> After reading the absolute Fire spewed from a Man that has
>> decades of fire experience, I gotta say I disappointed in
>> the personal fodder. It not only destroys the team but
>> it kills the legitimacy of this open forum.
The ‘legitimacy’ of this open form has actually NEVER been based on everyone being either “on the same page” or “everyone getting along with each other”.
Quite the contrary.
There has actually NEVER been a time when either of those things have been true.
And this certainly isn’t the first time participants have “gone off” on each other because of either miscommunication, misunderstanding, or both.
This is a PUBLIC forum.
As such… anyone is allowed to come here and contribute. Yourself included.
There is no “team”… there is no “leader”.
There are only individuals, each with their own reasons for contributing.
It has always been raw, contentious… AND ( ultimately ) productive.
It is what it is.
>> DHD also said…
>>
>> If people are getting too close to already known incidents,
>> you’d think everyone would rally around eachother.
>> Today showed me differently.
Again… through 28 chapters and ( literally ) tens of thousands of comments, there has NEVER been a time when “everyone was rallying around each other”.
It is simply not that kind of ‘environment’.
Disagreement and continued analysis and discussion is actually the ‘engine’ that drives PUBLIC forums such as this one.
But lo and behold… somewhere in that free-wheeling discussion… the truth emerges.
>> DHD also said…
>>
>> Spewing hatred and negativity does nothing but turn people
>> off from helping. I gotta say the referees were no where to be found…
There really aren’t any “referees” here. Never have been.
It really ( truly ) is a PUBLIC forum.
>> DHD
>>
>> I’ll hang back to see how this shakes out before I offer things that
>> shook my 25 years in the Fire Service.
How would you like it to ‘shake out’?
When people have ‘gone off’ on each other here many, many times before… there is usually a ‘cooling off’ period… and sometimes an apology or two.
In the meantime… can I ask you ( once again ) a very SIMPLE but still very IMPORTANT question regarding what you have already shared here?
Do you know WHEN the firing operation BEGAN on June 30, 2013?
It’s okay if you don’t know.
I’m still just trying to find out if you actually have that information, or not.
Thanks WTKTT–we have all suffered frayed nerves at times. I think my calmest was when Charlie my dog shot me in the back. At the time since I am near the border and was on a road used by dope smugglers I had thought I had taken a round from the desert –those smugglers protect their stash with their lives and I was driving a white truck that could be mistaken for a cop or border patrol–they now have white trucks with a green stripe. I was calm because I accepted the fact that I was about to die and I did about ten minutes before arriving at the trauma unit in El Paso. Doctors brought me around and my son being a long time trauma RN was there to help.
Well you fellows in the wild land fire business know what danger is and can cope with disputes I am certain. WTKTT is one sharp fellow and I agree–we have seen a few disputes here and likely not the last–but this site is public and let the disputers do their thing though it is a time we should all be supportive of each other.
Downhillndirect,
This place sure can get rowdy at times. I think one of the reasons is this incident is so upsetting and there is a lot at stake in finding out the whole truth.
I admittedly have an 8×8 cant on my shoulder and I started with just a chip, and it has grown from there. I now have an intimate knowledge of the ineptitude of management. It was sublime in the early years because I didn’t know enough to know any better. Sparing you a description of each of my harrowing experiences, and God knows I’ve had them, I must solve one more mystery before I let go. That is how is it that we lost almost an entire hotshot crew at Yarnell?
Management has proven to me to be generally untrustworthy. My experiences have made this so. What I really need to do for my own mental health is walk away, and I have walked away from out of home area assignments. The teams just don’t have high enough quality membership to give me the necessary confidence to ensure those I’m responsible for are not killed or seriously injured. (pencil-whipped quals) Therefore I’ve withdrawn my consent to participate. My bank account is pissed off about that. For my own well being I need to walk away from this forum and I’ve attempted to many times over the years, but I just can’t bring myself to do it. I think of those men and their families, they deserve better. So with all my years of trauma, which I believe has robbed me of the good memories, I stick it out. I want to help solve one more and then I can in good conscience walk away. I’m definitely not trying to tell you what to do. Only you know what’s right for you and no matter what I respect the hell out of you for coming on here in the 1st place.
I’ve made some posts here over the years that I wished I’d handled in a different way. At the end of the day I know I’ve tried to do the right thing. We’re talking about a lot of unnecessarily killed people here, and I don’t have to tell you that, but it can and does bring out strong emotions. I’m as guilty as anyone in that regard. Hope you’re not a BC. Have you read my “open letter to Battalion Chiefs?” If you’re not one maybe you would like it.
So stay if you can. Wade through the crap if you want. Or haul freight down the road. One thing I would ask of you is no matter what, find a way to deal with your trauma and anybody else you know as well. This kind of stuff ruins lives if its kept bottled up. We’re tough but we have limits. I’m trying to find ways to deal with mine. Thanks, man.
Thanks Woodsman–I have to concur –I have said several times that I am only a dumb citizen–all I did was see those men at work and be there the day they died. Then I spent some years with Joy hiking those hills to show the many firemen and media the path they took and the location of where things took place. But the horror of the event has embedded itself into my psyche that I seem unable to resist following this site. This for me has been the only place where people have been able to express themselves unbridled.
So maybe tomorrow I will refrain from the site but I know I will be back at least reading what you have to reveal because I know of its value not only to the loved ones, but to every wild land fire fighter and every citizen. I also know there will be plenty resistance to the truth.
On the contrary DHD–sometimes when the truth comes out and people have thought a different story or wish it did not reveal itself–then all kinds of emotions show up. But I am one to let things go pretty quick–life for me is too short to be sword fighing–especially with the gladiator size ones.
We do have a number of gladiators here but generally they keep their swords sheathed. Well in my view they are all gladiators after the truth but your information has already put some authors to shame–they were in a hurry to follow the lead without the truth. I do believe you are a key player in getting out the truth–and one of the top gladiators at that listening to your experience.
I am a believer and thanks–what you told vindicates what we had see in a video that was removed. Just the fact that the video was removed shows that someone in management was hiding facts relevant to the 19 deaths. This is truly criminal to obfuscate an investigation in the deaths of a horrible death incident of 19 wild fire hotshots –this incident is historical and can only be treated with the truth. Again thank you for your brave revelations.
Thanks for posting that information WTKTT–I wonder if it is any different than Fred and Honda already published? I am not going to spend the $130 to find out, but sounds like Joy was not privy to the knowledge that this information is easily obtainable to those willing to pay the fee and has been out before any trip to Washington DC. So maybe seeing the politicos might facilitate a change in things–
I am one to believe the only way these politicians move on things is to have the main press start looking into this–maybe they already have copies–but I suspect that it is going to hard to get them to change the fake story that the main public and press have bought into.
John Daugherty is in this media business so likely would have a good opinion on the situation.
Reply to Charlie post on July 9, 2019 at 9:38 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> …sounds like Joy was not privy to the knowledge that this
>> information is easily obtainable to those willing to pay the
>> fee and has been out before any trip to Washington DC.
I’m not sure that ANY of the authors of the 29 or so ‘papers’ that will be presented at the upcoming AHFE conference were fully aware of how EARLY the publisher(s) would be allowing it all to just be ‘purchased’ and/or ‘downloaded’.
I think it says in the ‘contract’ you probably have to sign with AHFE that you are giving them the ‘right’ to publish the paper…. but I’m pretty sure most everyone just thought that meant AFTER the conference… not BEFORE.
I don’t know. It still just seems weird to me… and not conducive to getting as many people as possible to actually ATTEND the convention itself.
I would assume Joy, RTS and Honda were hoping to get the information to some VIP ears before anyone could tamper with them and the information. But facts are facts no matter where or when they come out–
I have to believe this preferably would go to a talk show host –politicians are hooked in too much and many of the top dogs in government get there by the back slapping and good ole boy system. However, when the public gets wind of the cover up and lies that have been so blatantly presented then the politicos will swing into action. The public votes do count–there are also too many honest people that have resources that will start demanding answers. I think the public for the most part is unaware of how underhanded the Yarnell investigation was handled and how people in the media were fooled –much by omission of facts and also because we want to believe they were honest. Still it is a hard nut to crack–how Joy, RTS and Honda plan to do it might be the best–well it is in their eyes for sure.
Meantime, IM has laid out some great information and the dike now has a hole in it that a finger can not plug.
Sonny,
Good one, thanks.
You posted: “But facts are facts no matter where or when they come out–”
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts or evidence.” John Adams (1770)
So if someone springs for the book do post it so it is available to readers here. Obviously it is no secret to be hidden–something published and available.
Like wildland firefighting, knowing the weather is crucial, and the race to the top by mountaineering groups is also driven by the weather. The month of May is the best time of the year to summit Mt. Everest with only a few days when it is clear enough and the winds are mild enough to make a summit attempt.
Experienced cinematographer, adventurer, and mountaineer David Breashears and his IMAX team to film a documentary “Everest,” had been climbing with a small, select group of climbers and videographers, toward the summit for days, acclimatizing and moving supplies, etc. On May 10th he noted “by listening the mountain” that the day was going to be very cold and very windy, and not a safe day to summit in spite of the nice, sunny day they were experiencing.
One of the critical problems that year was the sheer number of people trying to reach the summit at the same time and take advantage of the “weather window.” Without local government oversight, the task of deciding when groups get to attempt their final ascent was left up to the mountaineering companies.
Based on the inclement weather and his intuition, he canceled his summit endeavor for the day and then second guessed himself throughout the day. He attempted several times without success to warn two of the Team Leaders to do the same.
The reality is that the descent was the critical journey based on well-established and agreed upon “trigger points” ensuring safer travel before nightfall and the ensuing storms developed.
There is only a short two-week window each year in May when Tibet’s Mt. Everest climbing conditions are at their best. In 1996, there was an unusually late and heavy snow-pack, which delayed scheduled and unscheduled climbing groups, causing a multitude of climbers to make their ascent just after the camps were supplied.
Along with the Everest expeditions becoming overly commercialized, this resulted in about 33 climbers attempting to summit Everest on May 10, 1996, creating two well-known bottlenecks, hurdles before reaching the top. These bottlenecks were worsened by the fact that the Sherpas and guides had failed to place a fixed rope line, whereby the climbers had to wait for over an hour while the ropes were installed.
As a result, many of the climbers did not reach the summit by the 2 PM trigger point or turnaround time, the last safe time to make it back to Camp IV before nightfall and the ensuing storms. Eight people died during the Mount Everest disaster that unfolded May 10-11, 1996.
The book “Into Thin Air,” one of many about this mountaineering tragedy is a mainstay for human factors, including trigger points, continuation bias, Groupthink, and much more.
Leaders need to provide options for their team and not back them into a corner when under pressure or becoming selfish in order to always get their way, thus destroying a team. And wildland firefighting crew, like an Everest mountaineering team, needs to have supreme confidence in a leader’s expertise and ability so they know that – no matter what – they will be as safe as possible throughout the ordeal.
The GMHS leaders read this very same book and discussed its key lessons learned based on their training records. So then, how was it that a group of hybrid FFs from Sun City West FD and the BRHS and many others on the June 30, 2013 YH Fire – like David Breashears on Mt. Everest – were able to note the adverse weather and discern the ensuing fire storm and disengage under the very same circumstances while the experienced and well-trained GMHS did neither one?
Correction,
I misidentified the French Aérospatiale helicopter in the photo I linked to a couple of weeks ago. I called it a Puma, buy it’s not that. Puma’s are much larger. It is either a Lama or an Aérospatiale Alouette II or an Alouette III, because design components where used from both Alouette variants to create the Lama.
Or it could even be a Cheetah, which is the same helicopter but built in India, but I kinda doubt it’s one of those. All of those helicopters kinda look the same to me, but I know it’s not a Puma, because those are BIG. In any case, the Lama was designed by Aérospatiale to be used by the Indian Army in the Himalayas, so they can fly really high, even when and where its really warm.
And FYI…most helicopters don’t fly very well in either warm air or at higher elevations because…you know..the air molecules are all spread out or there isn’t very many of them. Basic…you know…physics…or whatever?
Oh…and one more thing. Joy said,
“and the whole C-span- I had to laugh again- than you do not know the bigger package of Puppeteer America and I am shocked being your history…No media will touch anything outside the heroism unless some politician wants to mess with their opponent…”
But I do know all about the bigger package, I just didn’t want to spoil Joy’s and Fred’s big surprise where they will finally share the information they have been hiding from us to in order to advance their own agendas, reputations and objectives, while achieving their individual goals partially on our backs.
And just in case you have $1000.00 and want to hear it from the horses asses, I mean the horses mouths, here is the info you need.
AHFE 2019 – July 24-28, 2019
The 10th Annual Conference on Applied Human Factors and Ergonomics and the Affiliated Conferences, at the Washington Hilton Washington D.C., USA
Session 92 – Friday, July 26, 2019 – 16:00 to 18:00
Theorizing and Theoretical Issues in High Reliablity Organizations
Formerly unrevealed public records should change the account of what occurred on June 30, 2013, by Fred Schoeffler, Lance Honda, Joy A. Collura, USA
http://www.ahfe2019.org/program1.html
There are probably 200 wild land fire fighters that were on the Yarnell Wild Fire that killed 19GMHS crew men on June 30, 2013. I was there and although a citizen with wild land living experience, I am not a fire fighter. Because I was there and at the spot on the two track that the GMHS crew took the chance that killed their lives, I have often posted here on Investigative Media. I was with Joy at the spot and actually left her because she was about to take a route very similar to what the GMHS crew had done.
The two track for those that have never been there is about two-thirds the way up the Weaver Mountain Range that is about 25 miles in length and at Weaver Peak has an elevation of about 6700 ft. Yarnell itself is about 7400 ft elevation so the Weavers stand just outside Yarnell to the west at about a 1500-2000 ft. climb and once at the base mostly where a 4×4 could not go up without spinning out. However there is access to the two track that extends some miles parallel to the to the range. It may have been built by dozer about the time of the 1965 wild fire in the area –the growth and wash outs in places indicates it is at least a 50 year old trail unused except by hikers and ranchers on horseback.
Where the GMHS crew dropped off there is absolutely no possibility of a vehicle to travel from the base of the box canyon up to the two track–the terrain is just too steep and mottled with rocks and boulders so that entry from the two track involves much sliding on rocks and even hanging on to brush to get footing. There are some huge boulders in parts of it as well. My description is valid since I have hiked it both ways many times even before the winding trail that is there now made by volunteers so that just about anyone can wind themselves down to where the GMHS crew deployed and were killed by a super fire that they had engaged.
I have described this area some so that the citizens who have not before read the posts here have a bit of a description. If you like you can go down the hill by vehicle from Yarnell, AZ a couple of miles and find a parking lot and friendly FS guide that will tell you how to take the trail to reach the deployment site. It is steep, long and arduous and not advised in the heat of the summer for elderly folks unless in good physical health and know to carry a water bottle.
The thing I want to mention is that there are sites that cover the Yarnell death incident but this is probably the most controversial. First off, it is a citizen and wild land fire fighter site–very much welcome to either. Some of the other sites cater only to wild land fire figher types and some do not even allow opinions unless they jive with the official investigati0n.
Here you will find a couple dozen regular contributors and among those are more than half of wild land firefighters with more than 20 years wild land fire fighting combat. They know the dangers first hand. Almost to a man they disagree with official findings and say that those investigations were an attempt to keep reputations up for the wild fire managers of the Yarnell wild fire that was a complete boondoggle. Some even take notice that the loved ones were bilked by intimidation and false information so they were paid less than what should have been awarded for their losses of loved ones. But most of these men and citizens are disgruntled with the investigative cover ups because it puts undue risk on future wild land fire fighters. More lives will be taken if actions are not taken to cure the defects in fighting a wild fire seen at Yarnell and indeed they already have been taken in the California wild fire incidents that have killed so many–above 80 someone will give the count which by now is certain to be more.
If you know little of the investigation and you decide to get FOIA information–now mandatory by statute for public interest, you will see pages of pertinent information blacked out, much as if your were reading top secret government documents related to national security. You will find that wild land fire fighters were given official mum orders not to say anything under duress that they could be prosecuted or fired from their careers. All this when we are just talking about a wild land fire as well as why did those men die.
It was played as an accident by the investigators and any true information to the contrary was redacted, ordered mum by the managers and even petty judges. Some even blamed God for doing this because he needed them somewhere else. It was even said that they did the unthinkable by breaking every safety rule and procedure by risking a crew of men because they were really hybrid wild fire men that are also trained to protect structures–they attempted to do what they do–drop down into the densest and almost impassable dehydrated manzanita to attempt to protect structures. They had no engines, not even garden hoses, only pulaski’s and chain saws to do this with.
But many did not buy those stories–especially the men who have fought these wild fires for years.
Now what is amazing in all this is that few of direct knowledge have come forward with what they know of that day concerning what went down. We know for a fact now there were back burns and burn outs set. None were mentioned in the investigation, yet that information is absolutely paramount to the investigation of the deaths and wildfire. To have skipped that information in the investigation can only be that the investigators were willing to turn a blind eye to keep up the reputation of those managers involved in the Yarnell wild fire.
But these men are such good intimidators that out of 200 or more wild land fire fighters that attended the fire, heard communications that the Investigators said were dead for 30 minutes, yet now is confirmed they were not, only a very few less than the five fingers on my good hand have come forward.
Now I know many of those firefighers are like I was as a young underground miner. I saw plenty of violations of safety allowed by the mining companies and a non present mine inspector. But I never had the magnitude of death to deal with such as we saw at Yarnell.
I can tell you if i had been witness to such catastrophe as we saw at Yarnell neither hell nor high water would have stopped me from telling anything I knew about the killing of my fellow miner.
I encourage you, to do the right thing if you have any information–bring it here or contact John Daugherty or Joy Collura or just post it for all right here. Use an anonymous name if your career or job is threatened. Do not let the intimidators win. Future lives depend upon your honest account of what you know.
I would like to add, over time I have survived a couple deaths–actual yet some ingenious doctors have been able by their methods to bring me back. Whether the gods were guiding their hand or good old Jesus I can only suspect. You citizens that have contributed here have brought some of the finest questions and posts of any. Fire fighting involves the citizens as much as the fire fighter. Our homes and lives are at risk and we pay the way in taxes for the protectors. We must demand truthful investigations and the good outcomes they give.
correction Yarnell is about 4700 elevation
correction Yarnell elevation about 4700 ft.
I said,
“It is either a Lama or an Aérospatiale Alouette II or an Alouette III, because design components where used from both Alouette variants to create the Lama.”
So…if anyone can identify which variant I linked to I would like to know? I am still working on my helicopter special and I have several photos of other Aérospatiale helicopters that all looked like that one.
The only reason I called it a Puma, is because I had been reading about how those helicopters were used in the Bush Wars, so I had Puma (although a Puma is made by Aérospatiale) on my brain. But it’s definitely not a Puma, because like I said, those helicopters are pretty BIG.
This is an excellent, easy to read, research paper titled: “How Complex Systems Fail (Being a Short Treatise on the Nature of Failure; How Failure is Evaluated; How Failure is Attributed to Proximate Cause; and the Resulting New Understanding of Patient Safety)” (1998) by Richard I. Cook, MD Cognitive Technologies Laboratory at the University of Chicago
There are 18 headings to consider and I include the entire description for Number 3, so it’s worth it to follow the above link to the paper for the further details of the other descriptions. Moreover, the source of Brain Trust is Farnam Street and good to subscribe to for monthly updates.
Wildland firefighting is certainly a complex system and without a doubt, the June 30, 2013, Yarnell Hill Fire was – and will always be – the consummate example of a “complex system” gone awry.
( https://web.mit.edu/2.75/resources/random/How%20Complex%20Systems%20Fail.pdf )
1) Complex systems are intrinsically hazardous systems.
2) Complex systems are heavily and successfully defended against failure.
3) Catastrophe requires multiple failures – single point failures are not enough.. The array of defenses works. System operations are generally successful. Overt catastrophic failure occurs when small, apparently innocuous failures join to create opportunity for a systemic accident. Each of these small failures is necessary to cause catastrophe but only the combination is sufficient to permit failure. Put another way, there are many more failure opportunities than overt system accidents. Most initial failure trajectories are blocked by designed system safety components. Trajectories that reach the operational level are mostly blocked, usually by practitioners.
4) Complex systems contain changing mixtures of failures latent within them.
5) Complex systems run in degraded mode.
6) Catastrophe is always just around the corner.
7) Post-accident attribution accident to a ‘root cause’ is fundamentally wrong.
8) Hindsight biases post-accident assessments of human performance.
9) Human operators have dual roles: as producers & as defenders against failure.
10) All practitioner actions are gambles.
11) Actions at the sharp end resolve all ambiguity.
12) Human practitioners are the adaptable element of complex systems.
14) Change introduces new forms of failure.
15) Views of ‘cause’ limit the effectiveness of defenses against future events.
16) Safety is a characteristic of systems and not of their components
17) People continuously create safety.
18) Failure free operations require experience with failure
Oh…and one more fun fact to go along with all of the details from my personal life I am oversharing.
Based on my experience, training, knowledge, skills and abilities as a former WLF. and given all of the known facts and variables, I still don’t believe a backfire operation played a significant role in the deaths of the crew.
The three primary variable that calls this supposition into question in my mind, are TIME…Distance and most importantly….WIND speed and direction. I do believe that there were as of yet unidentified WLF who were conducting last minute, poorly planned, and poorly executed backfiring operations that were probably unauthorized at the appropriate fire command level with insufficient coordination, bordering on no coordination with those who should have been in the loop.
In other words, the fire was being managed by CHAOS and not humans. And the situation was SNAFU…which is standard operating procedure (SOP) and that is exactly when hotshot crews are supposed to do their thing and earn their money while justifying the reason why they exist were created and were created in the first place. And that is to be able to hike briskly into that environment without supervision or support and not only survive…but thrive and get some good work done to veni, vidi, vici.
Hotshots are not supposed to kill themselves by hiking briskly down a death chute directly into the path of a firestorm of Biblical propositions while being disingenuous about their true location and intent to their superiors in the fire’s command and control staff function.
1. TIME…the backfire didn’t have enough time to reach the crew by beating the main fire front. It is possible that some of the unauthorized backfire was sucked into the primary fire front as it passed, but I think it would have been largely inconsequential given the volume and temperatures if the primary fire head.
2. Distance…I think it was too far for any backfire to reach the crew because the primary fire front was closer and had a better angle to reach the crew first.
3. Wind speed and direction…I think the wind would have driven the backfire back into town where they were working and it would have been driven south, southeast into different parts of town, but still into town and not where the crew was coming down the death chute.
It really doesn’t matter how many WLF there are out there who feel guilty and are remorseful about what they did on the fire to kill the crew…if they are wrong. And I think they are wrong. But…I am open to being schooled on this aspect of the disaster known as the YHF.
And the reason that I’m not going to let it go if I think it is wrong…is not only because it will be wrong, but apologists for Marsh are already seizing on this bogus idea as a justification and satisfactory excuse for what he did to kill his own crew. And that I can’t accept if I think it is wrong, because to do so will place current and future WLF at risk. And that…I can’t do.
The bottom line is this…bring out your evidence for once and all and let’s convert it to 0’s and 1’s and feed it to HAL 9000. But if he doesn’t buy it based on the best evidence and logic, then I’m sure not going to buy it based on somebody’s else’s gut feeling or hunch.
I even confused myself with my RANDOM use of CAPS, and everything should have been capped, or nothing should have been capped because they all carry the same weight in my calculations.
It should read like this.
1.TIME
2. DISTANCE
3. WIND SPEED & DIRECTION.
And an important variable that falls within the category of “DIRECTION” is…”APPROACH ANGLE.” I think the approach angle was wrong for any backfire to have reached the crew. Unless of course…it would have been indistinguishable from the primary fire front. I mean…that thing was a MONSTER!
Now…I will admit that operating with a theory that a backfire “contributed” to or “influenced” the primary fire front is pretty hard to argue against…or for. Simply because who assigns what value to those very broad categories of variables.
But..as one of the architects of the foolish, unjustified, unsubstantiated and murderous war of choice in Iraq Donald Rumsfeld has stated;
“Reports that say that something hasn’t happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don’t know we don’t know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.”
So…I eagerly await to learn everything and I certainly would like to know about the unknown, unknowns from the YHF DISASTER.
During the April 2016 Family Staff Ride, at the fatality site, Bravo 33 John Burfiend stated that he watched the most intense fire behavior he had ever witnessed come from the north – and drawn by the saddle on the mid-slope ridge road – burn through the GMHS Deployment Zone death bowl, up the steep slope-bowl, and burn explosively through the saddle.
Thanks for sharing the Rumsfeld double talk quote
So…are you agreeing with me then? Because it kinda sounds like you might be agreeing with me? I’m confused because I didn’t expect you to sound like you agreed with me?
And yes, that Rumsfeld quote was the SECOND best quote from the Dubya years, here is the best one from the President himself.
“There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”
I look back on those years with such a great nostalgic fondness now. You know…comparatively speaking. Compared to now…those were truly our best years as a nation and a people.
In hindsight, it really doesn’t even matter that we killed hundreds of thousands of the WRONG people in revenge for 9/11. The really important thing is that SOMEBODY (actually…it was a lot of somebody’s) was killed so we could feel better about ourselves and our situation. We are a warlike people who can be very, very, very cruel. USA! USA! USA!
So heads up everyone else…don’t fuck with us.
Downhilldirect;
I want to apologize to you for the post I made because it wasn’t directed at you and sometimes I forget people can’t read what is going on inside my mind.
And as a matter of fact, I don’t even want to name those my post was directed at, because unlike me…frankly, I’m not sure they are all that stable…if you know what I mean 😜 But…I will refer to them by pseudonyms, the Energizer Bunny and Power Forge Hammer.
Anyway…if you have been reading this thread for any length of time, you know this is part Serious Accident Alternative Investigation Team and part Jerry Springer Show II.
And sometimes our back channel arguments spill over onto this blog and sometimes our arguments on this blog spill over onto our back channel.
So…we are all on high alert here because the word-on-the-street say’s that C-Span is scheduled to suspend all of its regular programming to devout its entire channel so that Joy and her unnamed posse can descend on Washington for the big reveal of what really happened on the YHF Disaster.
Meanwhile…back at the ranch, there are those of us who don’t really have a dog in this fight except we Wants To Know The Truth (get it) surrounding the historical event that was the greatest blunder in WLF history for you know…history’s sake.
And when I say I don’t have a dog in the fight, I mean to say that nothing will ever absolve either Marsh or Steed from their responsibility in the deaths of their crew because as a former hotshot, I know that you know, that a crew boss is always ultimately responsible for his or her crew and with great authority, comes great responsibility.
And nothing the Marsh apologists ever say can ever change the fact that Eric Marsh repeatedly ordered his crew to their deaths down a Death Chute over the repeated objections of Jesse Steed by breaking almost all of the safety rules and guidelines that have been developed over more than 100 years of wild land firefighting at the cost of hundreds of lives…without a sound back up plan in case of “What If.”
Personally…just between you and me and the lamppost, I hope it can be proven that the backfire did kill the crew because that would tie up everything very neatly for me and simplify my life and that portion of the greatest book that will ever be written about wild land firefighting in general and hotshots in particular, the highly anticipated and long awaited tome, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods”
And yes…for anyone who is keeping track, I have gone back to my original title from, “Our Fire Gods Betrayed Us And Broke Our Fuckin’ Hearts…Again” in the interest of the whole brevity thing.
In the meantime, I am very interested in everything you have to share with us and I consider everything you say to be of the utmost importance because I think it doesn’t really matter if the main fire killed the crew, or the main fire with the help of the backfire killed the crew, or the backfire alone killed the crew.
And the reason it doesn’t matter to me is because;
A. The crew is dead regardless.
2. Eric Marsh is 100% responsible for their deaths.
III. I think the very fact that a backfire even occurred, regardless of the role it actually played in the deaths of the crew, is what they have been fighting so hard for so long to cover up.
And that is because they don’t read George Santayana who wrote, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” Nor are they familiar with any of the paraphrases and variants of that quote such as;
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.
Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.
Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them.
Those who do not know history’s mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
And then there is my personal favorite when it comes to Obstruction of Justice: It’s not the Crime Stupid, it’s the Cover-up.
Anyway…I hope you stick around and tell us everything you know…please. (I am working on my people skills).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=0h0m0s&v=wIybNyQI5HA
Gary, is it your unconscious mind and the wisdom locked therein. or is it the “pension people” who cut your checks whispering your way or is it the loyalty as a family advocate or WF friend advocate or is it to help soothe a lady who made a death threat to me that you know—or is it a deep desire to pander for attention…??????
Whatever the case let me identify to the world who the Energizer Bunny is to Gary…I have knocked the fever a bit yet I am still got spunk and drive so let me help Gary since he is behaving in the same exact mannerism the EMF did in March 2019 on Social Media… it’s disgusting …while you sit in your space trying to grab breathe to live and focus on bullshit versus “gathering the data” yourself and feel better to knock me down when you know I am ill- go figure ( true a-hole you are )…and as Gary said without saying let me say WHO-
I am the Energizer Bunny as you will see he identifies me here:
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-478148
You know, Gary. your days and the others are done… no more bullying… …you do your best to try though eh— just when I thought I was on that Christmas Card List of yours…
I explained I paid along with contributing others even my hiking pal invested a lot of time and funds over time and “energy” and your EXPERTISE you name it…it is now obvious to anyone who knows firefighting what you do time to time is fluff with the distractions of how you placed it out…all you did was stir people to reach me that you wrote that when I am ill and they know why…you are beginning to have the World view Y O U as a person who covers all grounds never knowing the true ground you firmly stand on if you even stand on grounds….you may be on Earth to be a Guardian Spirit Guide …and I am not the one who needs such Guidance…I am firm what I have gathered and I will remain and stay the course ill or not and follow God’s plan not yours…or maybe it is the gnawing little voice of your gut feelings and hunches which are an important advisers that can aid you in making the right choices so maybe your gut told you to get things stirred up but DHD I now suggest he lay low and JD I feel will handle that area from this point on best…
just think of the people in the Industry, JD not the readership mentality like Shaun McKinnon did…I am concerned with so many and their mental health- truth needs to be told and so I pray for all involved and the ones telling the events in pure form for our mental healths…
Gary, are you in the mood to roast…roast away…I will stay focused…if you do cheap shots I will just “pause” IM until my task is done and ignore people reaching out to me saying DID YOU SEE WHAT GARY WROTE…but I will come back and roast you after my event and as my family and friends will tell you I am the master at it…no mic drops needed…
There is some that have been a massive distraction in the unfolding of the YH FIre aftermath and wherever you stand in it anyone can point all different directions even at me yet I know in my heart the IM page time stamped the times I learned data not you Gary but I (Joy) and I know the stuff I heard was going to take not being a rat or tattle tale and do it a way that honors … I live there …or do I? I seem to be everywhere but there anymore. I have lived in this “Big Brother” bubble where anyone who knows me and has called knows the clicking – the static – the white noises of my technology and yet it never scared me even as fierce the disagreements I have had with others behind the scenes I kept going… YES like Gary named it like the Energizer Bunny …
And if you want to say back at the ranch here on IM we all just want truths than WHY the HELL do I not see you on ANY FOIA or PUBLIC RECORDS index logs???? In the entire HISTORY the only known name from IM on those logs are RTS, Sonny , Elizabeth Nowicki and me. You have that tight of background intel you do not have to do that route???…well I did that route thanks to law professor Elizabeth Nowicki teaching the hikers that FOIAs exist for the common folk because I thought it was for lawyers and media and crap like that…Oh yeah IM’s Fire 20+ aka Deanna T. (Helena MT) is on the index log but as the person PEOPLE want to know what she asked for over time so PEOPLE have her emails and texts and etc in their return of records…Deanna is close to Holly so that wraps IM index log area…
And since you are in the scripture mode- Proverbs 4:23 is most suiting for this day- One of my medical massager who “knows me very well” always supports me but not some of my behaviors or paths I have taken yet she always has been there and says Keep vigilant watch over your heart; that’s where life starts. Don’t talk out of both sides of your mouth; avoid careless banter, white lies, and gossip. Keep your eyes straight ahead; ignore all sideshow distractions. Watch your step, and the road will stretch out smooth before you. Look neither right nor left; leave evil in the dust.
Sonny fits Gary’s Power Forge Hammer yet we know it is not him because Sonny moved to NM to get away from the AZ bullshit – so if that leaves RTS than I had to laugh hard because no way does he fit that…no way…I had to laugh.
and the whole C-span- I had to laugh again- than you do not know the bigger package of Puppeteer America and I am shocked being your history…No media will touch anything outside the heroism unless some politician wants to mess with their opponent…
also when people post this
Personally…just between you and me and the lamppost, I hope it can be proven that the backfire did kill the crew because that would tie up everything very neatly for me and simplify my life and that portion of the greatest book that will ever be written about wild land firefighting in general and hotshots in particular, the highly anticipated and long awaited tome, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods”
People who are in this FOR BOOKS being made is WHY the truths have laid hidden because of people out there wanting to get the data but NOT do their work and make a buck off other people WHO DID the hard-work are why people keep hiding it too…I firmly say this YOU ARE NOT RIGHT IF YOU MADE A BOOK ON THE MEN even if it was to honor them because the honorable thing to do was to put the sweat and tears and hard work to fact check as I have done… and the only proper book would be a documentary leather bound coffee table kind with all involved including Holly and Donut and Frisby and The Hikers and CAWRT and Homeowners and ALL even the Red Cross Volunteers and all their hard work they did to help out so yeah ALL…that is the only way I would appreciate a book on THIS tragedy.
The rest are just people making a PROFIT…
I have a team of people, Gary and under their instructions they state stay off here and anywhere until after the event and just get well so if anyone reads this and he replies with some whopper I will ignore all incoming no matter the severity of his roasts…I have to build up strength and get well…
Enjoy your Summer Gary…
Make the Queen happy – go enjoy a cup of “shut the blank up” tea-
remember your coat 😉
“Energizer Bunny” history on IM-
I too can pull a WTKTT move- see:
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-478074
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-350063
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-346774
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-346801
“Energizer Bunny”
Why are you always so harsh with me when you know how sensitive and vulnerable I am?
In this day and age, people get offended way too easily.
Everyone gets upset about everything.
All I ask is do not do an EMF style- you are better than that!
Thanks.
and I pray those silly dating apps have not inflated your ego…it is is big enough…I wish Dean was still alive; his coolness is timeless.
And Gary…instead of finding who in the two of us have “chemistry” or the lack of…let’s go play ball….it cures it all…
I laid in the forest awhile last night…all of me on the soil and I watched ants and spiders crawl on me…oh how I miss the simple things of laying on the dirt…that’s as dirty as I get nowadays- the only thing that hits on me are rattlesnakes…
bye bye sorry ass Gary…
mic ended up dropping after all 😉
I am so fragile and I have nothing but love and compassion in my heart for you, why are you so harsh with me?
And since you are myopic when it comes to Joy, please allow me to help you out.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479922
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479927
All because I posted this?
“So…we are all on high alert here because the word-on-the-street say’s that C-Span is scheduled to suspend all of its regular programming to devout its entire channel so that Joy and her unnamed posse can descend on Washington for the big reveal of what really happened on the YHF Disaster.”
I’m sorry…but I have missed the profit I have received from the last six years of my contributions here?
And as far as my “book” goes, it is all being written here first and when and if I ever get done, I have said it will be on-line at my expense as a free download.
But…let’s go ahead and talk about a profit motive shall we?
You and Joy are the ones who have been busily collecting information through your participation here for your big two hour presentation at the Society of Brainiacs and Psychology Academics in D.C. with Lance Honda where it costs $1000.00 to sit in that is meant to further your own reputation, goals and agenda.
Not the one the rest of us share on this blog, which is to investigate the YHF Disaster here…not in D.C. and not through your research papers.
What has my experience been worth to this blog compared to Joys, or even yours since you mostly contribute cut and paste quotes from others you pick up while doing your own research to further your own reputation, agenda and goals while you milk this blog for material to use in your own presentations.
Yes…someone owes everyone here an apology and it’s YOU.
Psalm 41:9 Even my closest friend whom I trusted, the one who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
Psalm 55:12-14 For it is not an enemy who insults me— I could have handled that— nor is it someone who hates me and who now arises against me— I could have hidden myself from him— but it is you— a man whom I treated as my equal— my personal confidant, my close friend! We had good fellowship together; and we even walked together in the house of God!
“The saddest thing about betrayal is that it never comes from your enemies.”
“Forgiveness doesn’t excuse their behavior. Forgiveness prevents their behavior from destroying your heart.”
“To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you.”
“A very small degree of betrayal is sufficient to cause the death of trust.”
“Life will betray you; God will never.”
But…I forgive both of you!
and if you are not going to enter the Survival contest and waste time roasting EMF style to me-
maybe this series can help better sharpen your skills-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn:_Washington%27s_Spies
I know you are not as old as the mountains…but getting there…
but can you really teach an old dog new tricks???
Joy I do not know who told you to stay off of JD’s Investigative Media–to my way of thinking they probably wish you would and maybe a few on here as well. But in fact your investigations and posts are among the most important to this site. You, I do know for a fact, are the single person that has requested more FOIA’s and interviewed more individuals both wild land fire fighters, fire fighters, and Yanellites that any person even investigators of the Yarnell Fire or anyone posting here. You have also spent more time, money and effort despite the many rebukes you get from individuals that ought to be supporting your good work rather than giving you a hard time.
I know for a fact that I hiked over a hundred people, mostly wild land fire fighters to the site with you along as the major spokesperson–your memory is amazing and mine is good but not as good. I know also you extended those hikes to 900+ in your continued effort over the past 6 years to help people understand by viewing and walking the full steps of the GMHS–not only to the death site but also to places the public never sees beyond the death site and that trek from the two track down to it.
Although I am able to phone or email you as your friend and long time hiking partner, I would rather you personally inform people on Investigative Media. John Daugherty deserves the respect for his continuous attack against the cover up and respect for the truth that I know you both have.
So from my point of view please do continue to post here as well as I know you have a very informative website. Do not let anyone intimidate you–and from what I know about your incessant work concerning wild land fire fighting and the Yarnell incident–you were there–you have spent all this great effort, time and monies–stay with IM. You are well appreciated and supported here.
Gary,
Do not worry, or be afraid. I don’t look at yo as a competitor, but an ally that know the official stance is hooey. I have watched too many friends and academy mates die because they had a momentary lapse of reason. Look at Eva Shieke. She died during one of the most obscure weather changes ever recorded. Your gift here and as a part of this team is to question every. Gosh darn it I like that about you. Woodsman and WWTKTT is our human super computer/heinous. Joy, RTS and others are still eating at the adult table and have more legitimate truth than anyone could fathom. I get it, I’m new to posting but not to the factors and being to decent the truth. All gifts, all curses. My friend Jesse made many bad choices that day. I know why, so do those that are still petrified of being found out. The ROE’s work, but when they are broken for human factors that show large scale known gross negligence, all the rules and truths change. I am proud of all of you, civilian active or retired. Even though WE walk through the valley of the shado of death we will fear no evil. Please keep up the conversations that challenge the truth and those that are on the brink of finally sharing. It’s out there, we must be able to see it, reason or not.
Much love.
Right On! Thanks.
DownhillnDirect–thanks for your honesty. I do realize there were several burns–likely unauthorized that day or at least if authorized with little consideration of assuring whether the GMHS were remaining in the black or not.
I can see three seperate smoke stacks–as Gary says that is what we do Burn. And that has to be a part of any wild land firemans tools and you being 25 years in the work might agree. If not fine, but that day I was always wondering how i could be off so badly in my judgement of getting back to my vehicle. Joy and I were so damn close to loosing our lives it was not funny–yet I had no explanation until RTS showed the photos and then you verified that there were unauthorized burns going on.
Definite that Marsh made a grave mistake–and that Steed almost made it and perhaps would had they a lookout. Donut was no lookout when they dropped off in the canyon. I believe from where they were on the two track they likely would not have seen the burns–but also at the time the burns were going the fires were practically straight up.
When I first topped the Weavers and Joy wanted to go her way similar to the GMHS a while later, I felt an eerie calm and could sense the wind change. Since a child and adolescence I knew that feeling because I had lived those wind changes and knew the danger involved. Having watched that fire my panic alarms went sky high, why I went back and did some strong words to get Joy to follow me out.
It was a good while–maybe an hour or so before the GMIHS went down from that very spot into the canyon. You know the terrain so I wonder was there any way they could see the burns being made. Also if they were burning they at the time they went down I am certain were not being moved by the wind.
Thanks for your posting do not quit nor let anyone offend you. Your work has been exemplary and excellent. You are the citizens and firemans hero and advocate.
And Joy–thanks to you for your information. I do figure eventually the big media will get at this–CNN, BBC, NBC, etc.That is what we want. The public needs the facts and with it out that way you know some VIPs will be on to this and changes will be made.
Gary,
I don’t know if I’m agreeing with you. If it kinda sounds like I might be agreeing with you, then that’s okay. I’m glad to hear that you are a bit confused because that means the precepts of Sun Tzu’s Art of War is working and valuable. And I still consider you a HS friend in spite of your Richard Cranium ways at times, so consider the spirit of his quotes below.
“The whole secret lies in confusing the enemy, so that he cannot fathom our real intent.”
“He will conquer who has learnt the artifice of deviation. Such is the art of maneuvering.”
I know that the fire behavior that day from the combined overall effects of the fire weather, fuels, wind, terrain, and preheating as an added result of the firing operation – ALL IN ALIGNMENT – resulted in an EXPONENTIAL GROWTH AND INTENSITY of fire behavior that was totally underestimated by the IMT and most of the WFs and FFs engaged on the fire.
Campbell Prediction System (CPS) Alignment of Forces
( http://cps.emxsys.com/chapter-12-cps-rx-alignment-of-forces/ )
“Three major forces heavily influence variations in speed and intensity of wildland fires: wind, slope and the preheating of fuels. These potent forces can work in cooperation or against each other.”
“The alignment of forces can alter the spread and intensity of the fire”
The document is about RX burns but the principles of fire dynamics are still the same – it’s fluid dynamics.
I’m also including Mr. Campbell’s paper: “The Consequences of Politically Correct Management”
( http://cps.emxsys.com/safety/the-consequences-of-politically-correct-management/ )
Still confused?
And this is a CPS quote for the EMF folks:
“We should not make heroes of victims of poor decisions; rather we should make heroes of people who do it right. The heroes are the people who lead crews in effective tactics and have no accidents in their past.”
No…I think you managed to clear that up for me…thank you.
And thank you for this;
“I know that the fire behavior that day from the combined overall effects of the fire weather, fuels, wind, terrain, and preheating as an added result of the firing operation – ALL IN ALIGNMENT – resulted in an EXPONENTIAL GROWTH AND INTENSITY of fire behavior that was totally underestimated by the IMT and most of the WFs and FFs engaged on the fire.”
I think that makes a lot of sense because although I think the time, distance, angle, and wind factors weren’t in alignment for the backfire to have killed the crew by itself, I think it certainly could have played a significant role in disaster.
For one thing, I can see the main fire sucking the backfire into it as it passed because it would have created its own wind and that would have made both the intensity and rate of spread with the main fire go up exponentially as you said. And exponentially is one of my favorite words to describe so much of what happened that day.
Gary, So you know I am not one of the possie but I am on the side line wanting to know more.+ I do think a CNN revelation would shake things enough that at least some changes would be made.
However, as a civilian I will add my two cents worth. I do believe the backfires had much to do with the deaths–My own estimation was that Joy and I should have had between 30 minutes and an hour getting out of the area ahead of the wild fire change. I did know it was in the process of change when I first topped out and again once I went back and convinced Joy to follow my way this time.
At that time I saw where the fire was and knew we had to move fast since we still had patches of green and that temperature was up there so it would be a treacherous trek over the Weavers and down the bouldery path that people now hike up exactly the way we escaped. To my surprise the people were already escaping and we could see the smoke and embers already at Glen Isla. If we had made another ten minute rest–and we had to stop at least twice to cool down a bit–we too would have been suffering the fate of GMHS.
Contrary to what is thought, what I saw and how that fire was upon us makes me think that the Shrine Burn and possibly other burns in proximity to the GMHS and the Helms Ranch had to be a major factor in trapping the men. That Shrine and the Sesame Street Road and the dozer trail that has a y in it leading to the deep canyon about a mile above the Shrine are all points I think a burn might have been going on. The smoke stacks shown by RTS point to those areas. The wind from those areas was funneled directly up that death canyon with those fires directly below–and that was a ripping windstorm, yet calm for some time before with the stacks in the still photos RTS provided going straight up–that means they were burning some time before the wind took violence.
RTS mentioned the combined factors–vegetation temperature and dehydration, slope of the land, and wind velocity alignment–and those were in perfect alignment from the Shrine or if indeed burns are proven off that dozer track down into the canyon and wash (almost a deep creek canyon) then that certainly was the situation to trap the men.
I doubt they would ever know that anyone would be above them and GMHS were as I understand reporting OK and in the black. Those burns would have been sensible as well, considering the wind direction and the need to burn an area to keep the main fire from backing into Yarnell–but the main fire was when I looked at it about 5 miles off toward Peeples Valley and in I believe it is called Harpers Canyon–a good piece (maybe 3 miles north of the Shrine Canyon.
I have a feeling Joy has data and strong evidence to back her claims. She surely has worked herself to the bone getting information, testimony and documents to come out with the truth.
DownnDirect is a God Send you might say in this–I know others will follow–the truth of what killed the crew is so important to saving lives–People running wild fire situations can not continue to cover up and falsify information when the lives of America’s finest are at stake–not to mention civilians that might be involved. People leaving homes because they see a giant wild fire in their back yards is unimaginable when there are a hoard of wild fire crews and managers swarming the area.
Is this what they learn in these expensive wild fire conferences?
I consider myself schooled.
Oh…and one more thing. If you were part of Joy’s Posse you would know it because you would be part of a plan to reveal all of the secrets that Joy has managed to uncover with her FOI ‘s and conversations with WLF over the past several years at some point in the future.
Everything I have and learned over 30 years in addition to the past 6 years at great cost to myself that can’t even be calculated, I have given to you freely and immediately to help you and everyone learn why the crew is dead.
And Joy….well…she looks at things differently. The information that she has learned belongs to her and her alone to hoard like a parsimonious miser while she hints, and flouts and teases like a stripper on a pole as she gives peeks while promising more to come…if we are willing to pay the price.
YOU DEFINITELY ARE IN THIS TO DISTRACT-
USING YOUR EGO AND “EXPERTISE”
And Joy….well…she looks at things differently. The information that she has learned belongs to her and her alone IT DOES? THAN YOU FOR SURE HAVE NOT BEEN IN PERSON WITH ME BECAUSE I WORKED MY ASS OFF KNOWING THE BIG BROTHER BUBBLE I LIVE IN TO MAKE SURE RIGHT FOLKS GOT IT BECAUSE OF WHAT IT IS SO IT IS NOT ME ALONE NOR SOME POSSE- YOU ARE IGNORANT YOU KNOW- VERY IGNORANT.
to hoard like a parsimonious miser while she hints, and flouts and teases like a stripper on a pole as she gives peeks while promising more to come…if we are willing to pay the price. YOU REALLY DO NOT GET THE BIGGER PACKAGE OR YOU DO AND ONE LAST TIME TO INSULT ME. YOU DISGUST ME! MAY GOD HELP YOU
Ouch…that’s going to leave a mark.
Please see; the Information Nazi.
NO INFORMATION FOR YOU!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7WRxEY8o3kc
Gary,
WTF is wrong with you?
What an arrogant, disrespectful SOB you are here. I thought that we are ALL in this together toward the goal of discovering and revealing the truth(s) about the YH Fire and the GMHS.
It sounds otherwise after reading your childish, selfish rant.
All of us, especially Joy, at great uncalculated costs to ourselves and our families, friends, and loved ones, have pursued this for well over six years now, and will continue to do so. This fire will be examined and researched and written about for ages.
If you claim to have given freely and immediately to help Joy and everyone learn why the crew is dead, then why are you acting like she OWES you something? What do you feel that she OWES you?
And what is with the whining like a child and having a temper tantrum about it? You sound just like the whiney Helislacker that Woodsman was referring to that had a meltdown when told the 2006 Iron Complex H-44 SAIT-SAIR was a lie and cover-up.
You’ve been interested in Bible verses for a little while now, so here are some for you on unity:
“I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.” 1 Corinthians 1:10
“Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.” 1 Peter 3:8
“So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.” Philippians 2:1-3
“And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.” Colossians 3:14
“And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.” Matthew 12:25
“But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.” Luke 11:17
You remind me of a spoiled CHILD that wants everything his way. And that includes your book that you keep talking about that SOMEDAY you’re going to publish. And that you need and want all of us to provide you the fodder for your alleged book.
I sure hope that others here also speak up for Jose and chastise you for your arrogance and disrespect.
And one more thing … you owe Joy and everyone else on IM a heartfelt apology
“I sure hope that others here also speak up for Joy and chastise you for your arrogance and disrespect.”
Who’s Jose?
I’m sorry…perhaps you missed the rants Joy directed at me first?
If so…please review and then get back to me.
And I don’t know who Jose is.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479921
“I’m not sure they are all that stable…if you know what I mean But…I will refer to them by pseudonyms, the Energizer Bunny and Power Forge Hammer.”
who started first ???????- you did a EMF technique not naming but naming (if you know what I mean) spewing out lies and your personal insight but I am very stable and your public display of the “unknown” was distasteful so you began this…
Gary,
Reviewed and getting back to you
Not buying your bait and switch , diversionary Special Agent BS
You know what I’m talking about
Who’s side are you on?
Sure sounds far afield from those of us seeking the truth
Here you go buddy!
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479951
Oh…and one more thing just as long as I am on the topic of wars we shouldn’t have fought and shouldn’t want to fight.
It looks like I am going to be wrong…thank God…over my prediction that if Trump were elected President there would be a nuclear winter because of a war with North Korea because both of Our Dear Leaders are now unholy lovers.
But…Our Dear Leader is flirting with a ear with Iran I can promise you we aren’t prepared for unless we are prepared to use nuclear weapons to win it.
We weren’t willing to pay the price of dead Americans to win in Vietnam…thank God. Do you know how Iran cleared Iraqi mine fields during their war with
Iraq after Saddam invaded their oil fields trying to take control of them after the Shah was deposed?
They took their children as volunteers (roped them together to prevent desertions) called “Warriors of God” and they marched waves of them into the Iraqi mine fields in front of their combat troops and tanks to explode the mines with the bodies OF THEIR CHILDREN.
We do not want to fight those people in a ground war. Just sayin…it’s nukes or nothin.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/iran-iraq-war-child-soldiers
I am not here to prove anyone right or wrong. The fact(s) that Arizona’s “Finest” were hours behind every trigger point and set evacuation agreement not only strengthens the stern and emotional conversation I had with one of the Captains that explained in great detail their ordered firing operation that fell upon the same timeframe pre-burn over.
The supposed structure protection group missed every indicator observed and pre-set until they were forced out themselves. A backfire must be agreed upon by Ops/IC and division supts down to the ones actually executing it. Time, was right on the money, wind, especially with how topography runs around and into the DZ could and did cause variable 20 ft winds as the Type 3 engines lit the western edge.
Distance, was between 3500’-5600’ from internal two tracks and the corridor roads in question. Does a defensive/offensive firing operation influence the ROS of the main fire? Absolutely once the magnetic effect starts.
Nowhere in my 25 years have I witnessed holding forces out in front of their engines unless it was during a mass exodus knowing ALL were accounted for hoping the Hail Mary would’ve worked or changed the main fires direction.
I will not name the brave man that was ordered to fire the well known roads by a non-existent Div Supe after 48 hours of sleep deprivation. All he knew then was he and two other engines were firing an area reported to be clear of human beings. No one in his firing group knew 19 humans were walking downhill through drought stricken decadent fuel with minimal to no fire return history. If they did know, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Gross negligence was a systemic disease running rampant from Schumate to the day the reports were released. 0 good decisions a 1 god awful Incident command system in place on 6/30/13.
DND,
Thank you for your informative post on the firing operation. It sounds like this guy became a hapless pawn because of the blunders of the DIVS A and GMHS’ steady drift into failure which included neglecting to post a lookout and / or inform AA of their intentions and actions as was a normalized deviance for them.
QUESTION: is your “0 good decisions a 1 god awful [ICS]” supposed to be “zero good decisions and one god awful ICS”?
Please keep posting as you feel comfortable
Me neither. But I am very thankful and grateful you are here. We have been waiting for you for six years now.
And just FYI for me personally, I’m not looking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt here as is required in a criminal case.
I’m simply looking for a preponderance of the evidence that is required in a civil case. I am looking for something…anything to be more likely than not…at 51%.
And as far as “gross negligence” running rampant that day, I think it was everywhere on that fire that day way beyond a standard of “beyond a reasonable doubt”, except for a few shining bright spots like with Brian Frisby.
I’m sure there were many cases of individual competency as well as heroism that day that I know nothing about. It’s just easy for me to point to Frisby as an extreme example.
Nor am I saying I could have done better. My Red Card quals put me right in my comfort zone and exactly where I wanted to be…Crew Boss.
But for those who did ask to be put in charge…I know what their performance level was supposed to look like that day. And just like Associate Justice Potter Stewart, I know it when I see it. And generally speaking, on the Yarnell Hill Fire…I didn’t see a minimum level of competency.
Reply to Downhillndirect (DHD) post on July 6, 2019 at 8:23 pm
>> DHD said…
>>
>> I am not here to prove anyone right or wrong. The fact(s) that
>> Arizona’s “Finest” were hours behind every trigger point and
>> set evacuation agreement not only strengthens the stern and
>> emotional conversation I had with one of the Captains
>> that explained in great detail their ordered firing operation
>> that fell upon the same timeframe pre-burn over.
When you say ‘Captain’… that means ‘Engine Captain’, correct?
Also, when you say “the same timeframe pre-burn over”… what, exactly is the ‘timeframe’ you are referring to?
What is the START of this ‘timeframe’ you are now referring to?
3:30 PM?
3:45 PM?
4:00 PM?
4:15 PM
Something else?
>> DHD also said…
>>
>> The supposed structure protection group missed every indicator
>> observed and pre-set until they were forced out themselves.
>> A backfire must be agreed upon by Ops/IC and division supts
>> down to the ones actually executing it.
>>
>> Time, was right on the money…
Again… what exact TIME are you referring to?
Do you know WHEN this ‘ordered firing operation’ actually BEGAN?
It’s okay if you don’t… I’m just trying to find out if you know or not.
>> DHD also said…
>>
>> …wind, especially with how topography runs around and into
>> the DZ could and did cause variable 20 ft winds as the
>> Type 3 engines lit the western edge.
The ‘western edge’ of WHAT?
Sesame Street itself?
The two-track that led from the Sesame Street area out to the old-grader?
The dozer push from the Sesame area over to the Shrine Road Youth Camp?
One ( or more ) of the ‘spur roads’ that connected Harper Canyon to Sesame area?
Type 3 Engines are too big to just be driving in the pure boondock.
They must have been on a road/two-track of some kind.
You also keep saying ‘Type 3 Engines’ ( plural ).
As in… definitely MORE THAN ONE.
I asked this before ( somewhere down below ) but I need to ask you again.
Since you saw the video yourself… do you remember if these Type 3 Engines ( plural ) were USFS ( standard aquamarine color )… or BLM?
>> DHD also said…
>>
>> Distance, was between 3500’-5600’ from internal
>> two tracks and the corridor roads in question.
WHICH ‘internal two-tracks and corridor roads’ do you really mean?
And… WHICH direction?
The distance ‘range’ you are quoting, even on the low end, would be pretty damn far from Yarnell in any direction.
Example…
The distance from where the GM Crew Carriers were parked, in the Sesame Street clearing area, all the way due west out to the Old-Grader near Brendan McDonough’s afternoon lookout position was only 4,200 feet. 5,600 feet due west of the GM Crew Carrier location would put you pretty much exactly where the GM Hotshots were ‘resting’ up in the black on the ridge of the Weavers, before they even left to head south towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
>> DHD also said…
>>
>> I will not name the brave man that was ordered to fire the
>> well known roads
And we are not asking you to.
For the moment… we need to focus on the WHEN and the WHERE.
From your several descriptions so far of WHERE the ‘firing operation’ was happening… you seem to have a good idea, yourself, of exactly WHERE that was… but I, for one, am still confused about EXACTLY WHERE you are trying to say this ‘firing operation’ took place.
Can we establish some kind of mutually understood EXACT LOCATION?
That would help immensely going forward.
>> DHD also said…
>>
>> All he knew then was he and two other engines were firing
>> an area reported to be clear of human beings.
So crew members of ALL THREE Engines mentioned so far ( A Type 1 and 2 FEDERAL Type 3s ) were all putting fire on the ground?
Do I have that right?
>> DHD also said…
>>
>> No one in his firing group knew 19 humans were walking downhill
>> through drought stricken decadent fuel with minimal to no fire
>> return history.
Was he ( or anyone in this ‘firing group’ ) hearing any radio traffic during the time they were performing these ignitions?
At 4:16 PM… there was a long conversation between Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and some as-yet-unknown individuals in fire command. The discussion was about Granite Mountain’s ‘status’ and Eric Marsh specifically reported the crew was heading SOUTH on their “Escape Route from this morning”. Whether the individual(s) you have spoken to understood what that meant ( most people who heard that radio traffic actually did not )… did anyone recall simply HEARING that ( or any other ) radio traffic during the time they were doing the firing?
The 4:16 PM conversation with Marsh and Jesse was recorded… but did they, perhaps, hear any other radio transmissions to/from Marsh or Steed that did NOT end up ‘recorded’?
Again… THANK YOU for coming here to talk with us, and I hope we can clear up some/all of the things mentioned above.
Ok so you want to know who Jose is? Well Jose was an illegal I knew who came up to the US and slipped in to a football game. Because he was a bit short he decided to climb a flag pole to watch the game–Some time later after he mad some money he returned home to his friends and family. They asked him how he liked America–His reply was those are great people–when I was at a football game and climbed a flag pole the whole crowd got up and sang to me Jose can you see?
But I knew another Jose and Jesus that I had beers with. Muy amable jente y con feliz.
**
** NATIONAL GUARD AT THE 2013 YARNELL HILL FIRE
The National Guard DID play a role in extinguishing the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, but according to all accounts, not until AFTER Governor Jan Brewer signed an executive order declaring a ‘state of emergency’ Yavapai County the day AFTER the June 30 tragedy.
KTAR NEWS
Article Title: Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer declares emergency for Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: July 1, 2013 at 10:20 am
Updated: July 2, 2013 at 7:23 pm
———————————————————————————————————
PHOENIX — Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer issued a declaration of emergency Monday after a wildfire killed 19 firefighters and forced the evacuation of Yarnell, Ariz.
The declaration frees $200,000 from Arizona’s general fund that can be used for emergency response and recovery efforts.
The declaration also allows the mobilization of the Arizona National Guard.
The Yarnell Hill Fire has burned about 8,300 acres near Prescott, Ariz. Estimates said about 200 homes in Yarnell were destroyed.
———————————————————————————————————-
AZFAMILY.COM
Article Title: Weather a concern for crews on Yarnell Hill Fire; military sending C-130s to help
Published: Monday, July 1, 2013
By: Catherine Holland
https://www.azfamily.com/weather-a-concern-for-crews-on-yarnell-hill-fire-military/article_d35ff639-0baa-5287-a7eb-e164097c7f48.html
——————————————————————————————————–
YARNELL, Ariz. — Even as Prescott, the state and the entire nation mourn the deaths of 19 wildland firefighters, hundreds more firefighters are struggling to get a handle on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The deadly fire has burned an estimated 8,400 acres — about 13 square miles — and destroyed about 200 homes and other structures.
Between 400 and 500 firefighters have been assigned to the Yarnell Fire. There are 18 engines, eight water tenders and four bulldozers.
— Yarnell Hill Fire – Update – July 2, 2013
Air tankers and helicopters worked the fire from the air Monday.
At last check, there was no containment, but the Yarnell Hill Fire is the top priority in the country and more help is on the way.
According to CNN Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr the Pentagon will send four specially equipped C-130 firefighting aircraft from Colorado to Arizona Tuesday.
The C-130s will come from the Air Force National Guard and Air Force Reserve.
They are called “The Modular Airborne Fire Fighting System” or MAFFS and when loaded with water or fire retardant can drop 3,000 gallons in less than five seconds. The retardant covers an area one quarter of a mile long and 60 feet wide. It can return to base, reload and be airborne again in under 20 minutes.
The military deployment is coming at the request of civilian firefighting authorities asking for additional support.
While the MAFFS are powerful weapons in battling wildfires, their payloads are smaller than those of the DC-10 Air Tankers. Tanker 910 and Tanker 911 can carry up to 12,000 gallons of water or fire retardant each. Those planes are deployed by the U.S. Forest Service to fires throughout the country as needed.
– Media briefing – Tuesday at 8:30 a.m.
Gov. Jan Brewer already signed an order declaring a state of emergency in Yavapai County.
That order frees up state money for emergency response and recovery efforts.
It also allows the mobilization of the Arizona National Guard to protect people and property.
CNN Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr contributed to this story.
————————————————————————————————————
The Los Angeles Times
Article Title: 2 California Air National Guard tankers to fight Arizona blaze
Published: July 2, 2013
By: Tony Perry
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-xpm-2013-jul-02-la-me-ln-air-national-guard-tankers-arizona-fire-20130702-story.html
—————————————————————————————————
Two air tankers from the California Air National Guard are being sent from Colorado to fight the Yarnell Hill blaze in Arizona that has killed 19 firefighters and burned more than 8,000 acres.
The C-130s from the 146th Airlift Wing at Channel Islands Air National Guard Station had been sent to fight fires in Colorado.
Along with two similar craft from the Air Force Reserve at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado, the California planes are being sent to the Phoenix-Mesa Gateway airport in Mesa, Ariz. and will be ready by Wednesday night ( July 3, 2013 ) to begin drops, authorities said.
Each plane can drop 3,000 gallons of water or fire retardant to cover an area a mile long
and 100 feet wide. Once on the ground, a tanker can be refilled in 12 minutes.
—————————————————————————————————-
A reminder that today, July 6th, is the anniversary of the 1994 South Canyon Fire.
Courtesy of Wildfire Today: “Video honors the 14 memorial sites on Storm King Mountain – 25 years ago 14 firefighters were killed on the South Canyon Fire in Colorado”
( https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/07/06/video-honors-the-14-memorial-sites-on-storm-king-mountain/#comments )
And this article and comment are from Firehouse and pay close attention to the cover photo of he video because you should recognize as the YH Fire and the Ranch House restaurant.
“Firefighters Still Learning from Deadly CO Wildfire after 25 Years – Firefighters remember the 1994 Storm King Mountain Fire that killed 14 firefighters and continue to learn from it.” July 5, 2019
( https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/video/21087391/lessons-from-storm-king-mountain-fire-help-firefighters-train?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190705004&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
Comment:
“Thank you for your article: “Firefighters Still Learning from Deadly CO Wildfire after 25 Years. Firefighters remember the 1994 Storm King Mountain Fire that killed 14 firefighters and continue to learn from it.”
“Indeed, it seems like they are still learning from this fire when CO South Metro FF Brian Delasantos (sp?) right off the bat discusses his fire shelter, including talking about how big and heavy they are.
Try as they may, MTDC and others will never design and manufacture a fire shelter able to withstand the deadly fire behavior conditions necessary to save lives AND be small enough and light enough to carry on the fireline. Only a literal shipping container made of black box material would be able to do that.
“Moreover, the lesson learned from all of us WFs was that the fire shelters only worked where there was no direct fire impingement on them. Everyone else perished within them on numerous sections of the fire. After the fire shelter talk, only THEN does he talk about how he relies on Lessons Learned. “The FFs were trapped uphill basically from a fire that they didn’t know was burning.” This one completely baffles me as to how that’s even possible.
“Yes indeed, it “rocked the wildland world across the country for the most part.” The narrator then states: “it changed the job” with the FF stating that “nowadays” FFs basically practice the Fire Orders, talking about Safety Zones as “a big enough area that won’t burn where you can seek refuge.”
“I’m positive the Ten Standard Fire Orders and Watch Out Situations were in place at that time as tried-and-trued wildland firefighting rules and guidelines, respectively. In addition, we had the 1990 LCES safety rules implemented.
“So then, how did it “rock the world of WFs?
“Unfortunately, the FF failed to mention that a Safety Zone is also a place where NO fire shelter is needed.
“Kelly Close, a Poudre, CO Fire Authority FF, is a Fire Behavior Analyst, and was a member of the Cramer Fire Accident Investigation Team and he wrote a research paper for the IAWF titled: “Fire Behavior vs. Human Behavior: Why the Lessons from Cramer Matter” for the Eighth International Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 26-28, 2005 Missoula, MT. “If, as teachers of history will tell us, failing to learn the lessons of the past dooms us to reliving those lessons, then we must either impress indelibly into the minds of firefighters the lessons of the South Canyon Fire or we will again experience its tragic outcome.” (Gleason and Robinson, 1994)”
“It is fairly obvious that these researchers were very prescient with this caveat to those fighting fire in the wildlands because their prediction came true. And because so many have NOT learned the lessons of the South Canyon Fire.”
Well worth reading this excellent paper by Kelly Close as it relates to lessons learned … or not
Close, K. R., 2005. Fire behavior vs. human behavior: why the lessons from Cramer matter. In Eighth International Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 26–28, Missoula.
( http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.116.6349&rep=rep1&type=pdf )
Two weeks before the majority of the PIHC died going Downhill and Direct/Parallel they were cutting line right next to my IHC.
They had no issues following ROE’s and put in some good line. Eventually we were reassigned to CO with them then diverted to a new start. One minute we are hanging out in a spike camp and the next they made the run of their life. Mackey by no means was a narcissist but he and many others would not, could not take command. That in itself caused a void that put everyone behind the ROE curve. To those that think ROE’s are “Hillbilly “ you have learned NOTHING. This job requires a chain of command that allows people to disengage if needed, without question.
Hollllllleeeee shheeet! We need you here, my brother. Welcome home and God bless. It’s a great fucking day we got here!!!
Keep on keeping on the healing, man.
RTS,
Whoever wrote that comment on the Firehouse site is a genius! Truly special!!!
Good job pointing out the fatal truth of fire shelters. Maybe someday someone will actually stop and question their use…I’m talking about someone in Management, of course. I doubt it though. Too much invested in the propaganda. One thing management absolutely DOES NOT LIKE is admitting that they are idiots. Not to mention the $$ made by manufacturing FSS equipment. How much is $350 a pop across the entire nation plus spares? The markup must be amazing for a piece of fabric with some shit sewn on in a couple of bags.
Another memory: you remember the dillweed that lost his shit (former helislacker) at the mention that Iron44 was a snowjob? He gave me trouble over not packing a LARGE size shelter. I don’t know how he knew it in my HotTop pouch from the fine folks in Bozeman? Truth is I never noticed it was a regular. (I’m well over 6′) Well, I laughed in his face and told him I didn’t give even one tiny fuck…I never plan on using that fucking brick anyway. Again, the witnessing of the brain short-circuit was astonishing. Good times.
The only service that pos performs is getting in my fucking way while adding weight to my pack. I should design & market a placebo fake shell that weighs a few grams to stick in there to make it look like you have one on. I could make millions and retire to being the guy who rents out jetskis in the Caribbean!!!
I am yet to know if the GMHS knew of the extra burns. I know that whether they did or not, the fact that they broke all of the LCES safety rules is testimony for the reason for their deaths. There is question whether they did the break communication rule since it is now know that the Willis lie about them not having communications is exposed. We know they did have communication and that would I think take that factor away leaving them with the LES–On the however thought–if there was communication then they paid it little regards–(wind changes and additional burns in the area) and things that should have been communicated since they were daring to move into the green without a look out or safety zone availability.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 5, 2019 at 5:50 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Almost 600 people assigned to Yarnell June 30, 2013,
>> and there is just ONE BRAVE SOUL
>>
>> Hooray to DHD!!!!!
>>
>> what was it resourced that day – 10 air tankers (including
>> 2 dc-10) , 7 helicopters, 5 fixed wing aircrafts, 27
>> engine or water tenders, 18 Crews (20 on a Crew),
>> 4 bulldozers, 1 Type 2 IMT, and 1 Type 1 to transition
>> from 6-30 into 7-1-13 and ALL THOSE PEOPLE and yet only
>> one came and finally SPOKE UP… very ashamed of the Fire
>> Industry to allow this type of behaviors…
So… are you saying that Downhillndirect ( DHD ) was actually THERE in Yarnell on June 30, 2013?
I didn’t get that impression from anything he has posted so far.
He made it clear that he has SPOKEN with persons who WERE actually there ( and doing a firing operation ), but I don’t believe he ever said whether HE ( himself ) was in Yarnell, or not.
Do YOU know if he was actually there?
https://www.cnbc.com/video/3000177152
Sonny=
I had asked Joy to post this–This is reminiscent of the Viet Nam slurry drops we witnessed in the 60’s and 70’s. They are the beautiful orange blossoms that the uninformed public drives miles to see. Yet their health effects rival that of the look alike agent orange.
To the younger set the effects are accumulative but to the elderly and those over 50 this shit is even faster acting than agent orange. The death rate at Yarnell since the massive slurry drops is 7 times the average death rate since the massive orange slurry drops of the Yarnell and Tenderfoot fires after 2013 and the death of the 19 GMHS crew. There have been about 37 deaths a year in these past six years where 5 per year should be the norm.
Go to the Florida red tide disaster and see the YouTube video of hundreds of thousands of fish dead along the ocean. That is caused by the phosphate mine leakage into the water ways. There are 27 phosphate mines in Florida and 9 active with phosphate the main ingredient in the beautiful photogenic slurry called PhosChek.
Florida is having an ecological disaster from this chemical. Fresh water tables are being poisoned and made undrinkable–EPA is spending millions to clean up these abandoned mines and the phosphates in water tables is making it undrinkable—phosphates cause all sorts of health problems.–EPA is blaming the thorium and iridium content of the phosphates as the health risk–this stuff is radioactive. But if you look at those hundreds of thousands of fish dead and look at the death rate of Yarnell after the slurry drops you might conclude there is more than the radioactivity to worry about.
Those long dead zones now both in the Pacific and Atlantic are the direct result of the phosphates and nitrates of the chemical slurry dumps. Of course we do not know the secret additive chemicals under trade secret laws. They might be dousing you with rat poison for all we know—look at the Yarnell Fire Cover up and you wonder who can you trust among these FS and Chemical marauders .
Ironically, the nitrates and phosphates used also in fertilizers has made dead zones in the oceans that only the toxic red algae can exist. Other ocean plant life and fish are non existent in those areas. The toxic red algae thrives off the phosphates and nitrates from the river drainage–California and parts of Oregon have been inundated with hundreds of thousands of tons of the red slurry over decades of fire suppression. This slurry makes its way into the oceans and has been accumulating for these decades–so now we are beginning to get the disastrous effects of this slurry.
The EPA is spending millions to clean up the abandoned mines in Florida. But how do you clean up all of California or even the little town of Yarnell after it has been saturated with this slurry.
The main ingredient in PhosChek orange slurry is phosphorous and ammonium nitrates. Despite what the FS and Chemical Companies including their sources–the phosphate and nitrate mining companies, these chemicals are a deadly concoction that should never be used around humans, water sources they contaminate even if distant from the water source, nor especially near the already threatened ocean environment.
These are my own cowboy–miner opinions–you might say ” Hillbilly” observations. You are entitled to check my information but if you are a FS cronie, a Chemical Company official, or a Mining interest in the phosphate and nitrate business–don’t bother–I know what you will say before you say it.
The aftermath of the Yarnell ordeal including not only the 19 deaths and 200 citizens dead from that small town since 2013 with the obvious cover up of these deaths leads me to wonder who can you trust among these marauders–plunderers of health, life and environment.
Gary Olson says
JULY 3, 2019 AT 8:50 PM
And I am posting this one because it’s stupid and fun and right now…I only want to think about something stupid and fun.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6tuzHUuuk
I do want everyone to know however, something I have always said on this thread. I have always had the deepest love, respect and admiration for Jesse Steed as I have consistently defended his actions, however wrong, as understandable and in my book…even excusable.
Jesse Steed was the man I always wanted to be…but was never able to become because I was so weak and deeply flawed.
But…I can’t allow myself to be weak and maudlin now because at the end of the day, Jesse Steed did lead his crew to their deaths with a death hike down a death chute even though he knew it was the wrong thing to do in spite of all of his obvious physical strength and commitment to being CrossFit and working out with Pukie the Clown. Whereas I am sitting in my recliner writing about it after 30 years of very similar service. So…
And although I still admire Jesse Steed, DON’T GROW UP TO BE LIKE HIM BOYS AND GIRLS and remember, I wouldn’t even lead my crew to the showers on the Scott Fire after receiving direct orders from the Fire Boss, Line Boss and Division Boss to do so because I didn’t believe that was the right thing to do for them. They needed sleep, not a shower at that point in their lives and that got my crew kicked off the fire and an unscheduled flight home in a charter jet.
So…all of the empirical evidence we have at this time suggests Jesse Steed should have been much more like me and then his crew would still be alive even though his kids might no longer have health insurance because he wouldn’t still be with the Prescott Fire Department.
Which brings me to the point of this entire post, I now understand that the only way all of us can truly achieve inner strength is by only by surrendering ourselves to HIS will and following HIS word. So…I don’t fuckin’ think I need Fred at the other end of a wire after all…all I need is the Google machine! And maybe some crib notes? 😇
Isaiah 40:28-31 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable. He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might he increases strength. Even youths shall faint and be weary,and young men shall fall exhausted; but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint.
Isaiah 41: fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength; seek his presence continually!
Exodus 15:2 The LORD is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father’s God, and I will exalt him.
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
Psalm 18:32-34 the God who equipped me with strength and made my way blameless. He made my feet like the feet of a deer and set me secure on the heights. He trains my hands for war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
Psalm 119:23 Even though princes sit plotting against me, your servant will meditate on your statutes.
1 Samuel 30:6 And David was greatly distressed, for the people spoke of stoning him, because all the people were bitter in soul, each for his sons and daughters. But David strengthened himself in the LORD his God.
2 Timothy 4:17 But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion’s mouth.
1 Peter 4:11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen
Joshua 1:9-11 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go.”And Joshua commanded the officers of the people, “Pass through the midst of the camp and command the people, ‘Prepare your provisions, for within three days you are to pass over this Jordan to go in to take possession of the land that the LORD your God is giving you to possess.’”
* Genesis 22:1-3 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac. And he cut the wood for the burnt offering and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.
*
Oh…and one more thing. I’m mostly kidding, I believe Steed was loved and respected enough at that point within the PFD that he could have taken Marsh on Mano a Mano and won…Marsh might have been the one shopping for new health insurance.!
STEED FUCKED UP…BIG TIME! I can forgive what Steed did, but I can’t forget what he did, because to do so, would place current and future WLF at risk. And that…I can’t do.
Which brings me to the point of this entire post, I now understand that the only way all of us can truly achieve inner strength is by only by surrendering ourselves to HIS will and following HIS word. So…I don’t fuckin’ think I need Fred at the other end of a wire after all…all I need is the Google machine! And maybe some crib notes? 😇
Isaiah 40:28-31 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable. He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might he increases strength. Even youths shall faint and be weary,and young men shall fall exhausted; but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint….Marsh might have been the one shopping for new health insurance.!
——————————————-
As for Marsh and that Season and where he was headed- that will come out later on- have to stay focused…but as for Scripture dropping which one of my contributing others wanted on the blog and there is times I am like “girl, stop..” but I beg you do not use another to do wire sharing because you alone are just fine and even with the potty mouth…they now make coloring books just for you…I think what is embarrassing is when you rant you seem to go to left field but then when you take emotion or self or whatever and then take the points – get it…I am the queen of rambling and talk in codes and puzzles yet even I have key points- I want you to take this July and write on this contest:
https://survivalblog.com/preparedness-notes-sunday-june-30-2019/
June 30th is the anniversary of the tragic death of 19 hotshots in the Yarnell Hill Fire. (In 2013.)
—
SurvivalBlog Writing Contest
Today we present another entry for Round 83 of the SurvivalBlog non-fiction writing contest. The more than $12,000 worth of prizes for this round include:
First Prize:
A $3,000 gift certificate towards a Sol-Ark Solar Generator from Veteran owned Portable Solar LLC. The only EMP Hardened Solar Generator System available to the public.
A Gunsite Academy Three Day Course Certificate. This can be used for any one, two, or three day course (a $1,095 value),
A course certificate from onPoint Tactical for the prize winner’s choice of three-day civilian courses, excluding those restricted for military or government teams. Three day onPoint courses normally cost $795,
DRD Tactical is providing a 5.56 NATO QD Billet upper. These have hammer forged, chrome-lined barrels and a hard case, to go with your own AR lower. It will allow any standard AR-type rifle to have a quick change barrel. This can be assembled in less than one minute without the use of any tools. It also provides a compact carry capability in a hard case or in 3-day pack (an $1,100 value),
Two cases of Mountain House freeze-dried assorted entrees in #10 cans, courtesy of Ready Made Resources (a $350 value),
A $250 gift certificate good for any product from Sunflower Ammo,
American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI) is providing a $300 certificate good towards any of their DVD training courses.
Second Prize:
A gift certificate from Quantum Harvest LLC (up to a $2,200 value) good for 12% off the purchase of any of their sun-tracking models, and 10% off the purchase price of any of their other models.
A Front Sight Lifetime Diamond Membership, providing lifetime free training at any Front Sight Nevada course, with no limit on repeating classes. This prize is courtesy of a SurvivalBlog reader who prefers to be anonymous.
A Glock form factor SIRT laser training pistol and a SIRT AR-15/M4 Laser Training Bolt, courtesy of Next Level Training, which have a combined retail value of $589,
A Three-Day Deluxe Emergency Kit from Emergency Essentials (a $190 value),
Two 1,000-foot spools of full mil-spec U.S.-made 750 paracord (in-stock colors only) from http://www.TOUGHGRID.com (a $240 value).
An assortment of products along with a one hour consultation on health and wellness from Pruitt’s Tree Resin (a $265 value).
Third Prize:
Three sets each of made-in-USA regular and wide-mouth reusable canning lids. (This is a total of 300 lids and 600 gaskets.) This prize is courtesy of Harvest Guard (a $270 value)
A Royal Berkey water filter, courtesy of Directive 21 (a $275 value),
Expanded sets of both washable feminine pads and liners, donated by Naturally Cozy (a $185 retail value),
Two Super Survival Pack seed collections, a $150 value, courtesy of Seed for Security, LLC,
Mayflower Trading is donating a $200 gift certificate for homesteading appliances.
Round 83 ends on July 31st, so get busy writing and e-mail us your entry. Remember that there is a 1,500-word minimum, and that articles on practical “how to” skills for survival have an advantage in the judging.
Gary
https://youtu.be/1cekfpK8mZQ
1min 57 of this clip reminds me of you–
Sonny- you would make for a great person to enter the contest over cookie cutter Gary…
Gary probably did survival methods when employed but not in his retirement times like you have
This is both your time and see WHO wins
Best Wishes!
I am rooting for you to enter…
Some decent prices
Solar generator
Nice.
The Real Survivor:
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/11/03/How-Many-Lives-Does-One-Man-Have-I-Always-Thought-It-Was-Two-The-Second-One-Began-When-One-Realized-They-Only-Have-One-Life-Not-For-Tex-Harold-Eldon-Gilligan-Sonny-This-Is-His-Medical-Status-Update-Post-Tex-Being-On-The-Weaver-Mountains-June-30-2013-Was-Very-Important-To-The-Wildland-Fire-Industry-Too-Many-Times-He-Has-Been-Thanked-For-His-Fire-Knowledge-Experience-Let-This-Post-Honor-The-Fallen-By-Sharing-About-Sonny-Who-Is-On-A-Road-To-Recovery-
Okay…good tip, thanks Joy, I’m going to use this one!
“Isaiah 40:28-31 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable. He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might he increases strength. Even youths shall faint and be weary,and young men shall fall exhausted; but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint….”
You come up with better ones than even Fred does, how would you feel about monitoring my wire from a listening post and texting me tips to up my game?
You know…assuming I ever get my Special Lady Friend to go out to dinner with me. I don’t really have any clothes to wear that will fit in with the area where she lives, but…I guess I can work on that angle?
hmmm…Thanks
was about to log out
That song got me moving—
Roll it …
let’s get up and dance…
make the pizza… 😉
Right on…
Now as for me being a Date Doctor I would not be Will Smith
and Will’s moves in movie had to make his loved ones laugh because he can move for reals and is wife…
As for dating and doctoring…you ready…It’s no surprise you picked that youtube video- it fostered feelings – you watch it and you either go “oh smack, how dumb…” or your body went to moving to the melody…
Sonny and I in Sedona years ago were gonna take dancing up because he loves ballroom or what was it–oh yeah—Tennessee Waltz…Sonny loves to dance…he would have many a lady on his side as he would dance the night away…with my yo-yo weight not so much…more on the disconnect chapter but I did dance at Bumpers in Bloomfield NJ- is that aging or dating myself—oops—When I first met Sonny and he danced with locals in Dolan Springs when you saw the ladies and him all you could feel when watching was blushed or they were wrapped up in a vertical expression of a horizontal desire legalized by music…really…A lot of men are scared to dance publicly…men with high levels of the sex hormone testosterone dance differently to men with low levels of testosterone…it is very true…
You do not need a dance doctor or dating doc either – what you do need is to know the woman who stood by you for decades I honor her time with you and I am so very pleased God shows you the roots phase to your life because with your breathing you would for sure get the “pension seeking” ladies like Sonny because they figure you are about dead but what they do not know – You and Sonny are here to stay even though some social areas wish we all did not with our healths, eh…
Hope your life like mine and Johnny’s did had this phase:
https://youtu.be/1qc5bAgZ0uY
because it is all about the madness…
I miss that phase to my life- I wish I could find a physical trainer who knew my health stuff and told me HOW to get there with barely ay breathing and etc…
Night, gary.
you know what be Special Friends because anything else might not be good for youe psyche 😉 (soft soft giggles)
Thanks for the Happy Bday Sonny…I actually had to go hmmm…2019 minus 1972 equals OH MY… hee hee….1972 was a really good year for a lot of you…signs hung up in the Forest Service that said “MEN WANTED! A ranger must be able to take care of himself and his horses under very trying conditions; build trails and cabins; ride all day and all night; pack, shoot, and fight fire without losing his head….all this requires a very vigorous Constitution. It means the hardest kind of physical work from beginning to end. It is not a job doe those seeking health or light outdoor work…INVALIDS NEED NOT APPLY!
I got the best lady by posting on Senior Match–a gal that doesn’t mind an outdoor toilet, can spit snuff between her teeth and hit a coackroach at ten yards is a plus but if a smoker then has to smoke outside the tent. Doesn’t mind a hot or cold shower–Arizona can heat a shower back to near boiling–someone that can shoot and bring in a bit of game. But I forgot all the characteristics I like in a woman–but the post was quite popular.
You come up with better ones than even Fred does,
that is because Fred is Academics, Gary …duh
how would you feel about monitoring my wire from a listening post and texting me tips to up my game?
Like I said just be you…with moods and all…if she has a life then let her enjoy it—just have a nice time and be you and stop with thinking you are not capable…learn from Sonny more than me…hee hee
You know…assuming I ever get my Special Lady Friend to go out to dinner with me.
ok, so you get to CA which is more than likely a 3 times a year event- just see what she enjoys and have a great time…
I don’t really have any clothes to wear that will fit in with the area where she lives, but…I guess I can work on that angle?
https://youtu.be/HWZisnZ-RGE … when have you ever cared what people think … really? but I did think of this song when you mentioned the clothes…remember that song…nah nah nah nha nah nha nha nah…hee hee heee heee
Slow down…we all saw her…take it easy…clothes?…man, when I first met RTS to do this conference projects he actually was calling me his “YH FIRE project” and was whispering to his pals how do I get Joy to dress nicer for the conferences??? So I know exactly what you mean – Sonny never cared what I wore but this fella who did his time in the Fire Industry indeed cared…”image”…horse manure. I do not have funds because all my time goes to telling the truth even after the truths are out I am gonna keep telling the many layers…Funny anyone who has met RTS 20 years ago- he has the “same” fashion stylist…but who cares what you wear—wear baggy shorts and tee for all I care…Sonny would say the same…He wore Buddha shirts inside out…he had a few shirts that had a six pack on it and it said Group Therapy on it….who cares…but you are a big sized human so I do not know what even would be good for ya to wear…keep it natural and neutral…layer light – it is Summer…Slim-fit denim unless you are Sonny than cowboy cut wranglers with snap on shirts and cowboy boots and a Stetson..Gary, tailor it to your body and class it up… the henley tee – the ones that offer mid-chest unbuttoning from the neck – will serve you well in freeing the chest area. Button-ups should be tapered below the lats to accommodate for the broad shoulder-to-hips ratio on account of your V-shape…Wing-tip dress shoes will give the allusion of wider foot and balance out the width with your thighs and shoulders than regular, pointed shoes. And go for a heel, which will elongate the muscles of your thick legs. Heavy duty boots with industrial heels are great too…d’marge it…Night…
Well…you are right for the most part, but even I can be embarrassed.
And, thanks for the heads up, but “pension seeking” isn’t an issue for my Special Lady Friend.
There are at least two things I know of that she doesn’t need.
1. Me
2, or my pension…if you get my drift.
Hahaha…no really…Hahaha!
‘that is because Fred is Academics, Gary …duh”
Yeah…Fred is a real fuckin’ brainiac 🧠!
But Joy those pointed shoes are good for killing cockroaches in the corner. They new cowboy wears what I call clown boots while the city slicker wears those clown shoes about 3 or 4 inches longer than where the toe ends. That shit could easily trip you up in a run. But those pointed toes might be good at killing rats if you can get them cornered. . And keep the high heal–helps to hook you to the bar stool so you don’t fall backwards. Stay practical and if you like those clown boots go for it. We all need a little fun in our lives.
Lots of memories there Joy–Brought some tears to my eyes when I looked at the memorial I helped you make–the loss of those men and their plight will always be remembered.
Your photos tell the Yarnell story better than any words can describe. The before and after and the many people that came to honor the hotshots were so many.
The lessons and mistakes they made I am certain they would want it to be known to save others from the same. Those men were victims of bad wild fire management.
Some people have a gift for teaching–I saw that in Wayne Niel and I hope he is promoted to one of the positions teaching safety–he would be a great inspiration to the young wild land fire fighter.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ybUbyGzBCfogwVCk9
you mean this place…
I am logigng out
foggy and in pain…night there Sonny
Yes and that is a photo of John Daugherty, our hero of Investigative Media along with yours truly paying respects to the GMHS crew.
It was your idea to place a rock at the memorial when people would pass in memory of the GMHS. We always did that on the many trips to the top of the Weavers.
Your photos are a marvelous record of the historical event of the killing of the GMHS crew–will forever tell a great portion of the story to future generations. Thanks Joy.
For me I am in no contest–It will be enough if we can get attention to straighten out the truth of the 19–People involved have tried to write a false history to attempt to maintain a good reputation for a mangled operation that killed those men. The only way to honor those men is to tell the truth about what killed them. That is exactly what they would want–my understanding they wee all God fearing individuals–their concern for their fellows and safety of future wild land fire fighters would be utmost in their way of thinking.
It is also important to the citizens concerning safety of fire fighting people as well as other citizens that might be affected by the fire. As you can see many lives were endangered with many making an escape only by minutes and even seconds with some loosing valuable livestock.
The other thing of concern that has been given little attention is the disastrous effects of the chemicals not only on aquatic life where hundreds of thousands of fish have been killed and beaches for miles and making miles of rivers as dead areas. Add to that the miles of dead zones created by the phosphate mines and decades of slurry drops and you can see this country is creating a chemical nightmare.
The EPA has been spending hundreds of millions cleaning up the Phosphate mine situation that has created all those miles of dead fishes on the beaches along the Florida Coast. But how do you clean up PhosChek that has poisoned our residential areas, forests and shrub terrain? This is an environmental calamity that we will have to live with, yet it is allowed to continue on.
There is much debate about the effectiveness of PhosChek on wild fires. At Yarnell its only effect was to heavily pollute the residential area about that small village. The fire went right throught those huge slurry drops as if they were not even there. The heat of that fire was releasing energy at the rate of a Hiroshima type bomb every 15 minutes according to the scientists of fire study Wooten and Morrison. Much of that retardant was converted into other chemicals–one being cyanide. We are totally in the dark as to what the trade secret chemicals in it were–they could have been rat poison for all we know–but we are expected to trust these chemical and FS officials that this is an inert substance with no effects to health–despite the enormous death count of Yarnellites after the fire. As an American you would think we would have the right to know each and every chemical polluting us and the environment.
I see these chemical and slurry supporters and the mining companies providing the ingredients as villains of a high order. They are polluting the environment in a huge way and as you see in Florida and other areas affected by the slurry and mines that are destroying fresh water supplies and ruining the environment and the cause of the death of hundreds of thousands of fish–not even to mention the dead zones of the ocean made by these chemicals.
The hundreds of millions already spent in Florida can not undo the damage done by these mining operations and their attendant slurry dumps–they can only mitigate the damage to some small degree.
This is very serious–people are unaware and it is obvious the companies and FS persons promoting their poisons are wanting to keep it that way.
You know Joy…thanks for thinking of me. And at one time as a much younger person, I did have some survival skills, but I lost most of those except the most important one when I went to work for the U.S. Government as a wild land firefighter. And that survival skill was COMMON SENSE.
All I had to know and do, was to follow an Operations Plan and be where I was supposed to be, doing what I was supposed to be doing. And then I had the full support of the American People and the full might and power of their federal government behind me. And that was a comforting thought.
And then during my Second Act, all I had to know, was how to plan, develop and write a sound Operations Plan, and then make sure everyone working for me followed it while we were where we were supposed to be, doing what we were supposed to be doing.
And then the same thing applied. I had the full support of the American People and the full power and might of their federal government behind me. And that was a comforting thought.
http://ourfiregods.com/SpecialOperations.html
The most interesting thing I would like everyone to look at, is the green North Face daypack at my feet in the first helicopter photo with me in the Huey.
This photo was taken during an extraction where we had been in the field for several days on a counter drug op. You can see how dirty and sweat stained my T-shirt is if you look at it closely.
Anyway…you can see that same exact green North Face Daypack in a lot of my hotshot photos since that was the very same pack I carried for years on the fire line.
I also included a photo of Ms. Sparkle sitting behind the wheel of my 1976 Dodge 3/4 Ton 4×4 Power Wagon. I never let her drive it…but I did let her sit behind the wheel of it this one time for a photo. I mean…am I right guys, not to let her actually drive it?
And I am happy to report…that she hasn’t lost any of her sparkle and she is even more beautiful today than she was back in the day because she has a well lived life behind her.
Oh…and I am completely rebuilding my website from scratch so this page won’t be there for long…or part of the regular website. I made it special just for Joy to address her “skills” question. I don’t have any…or very many. I had friends…so I didn’t need them.
Oh…and one more thing. I haven’t taken down the in memoriam photo I made and posted for the crew on June 30, 2019, because I haven’t wanted to yet. It is still my Home Page that people are sent to if they enter my site from the “outside.”
http://ourfiregods.com/
The Bank Of Gary is CLOSED!
Whoops, of corse I meant to write,
“And I am happy to report…that she hasn’t lost any of her sparkle and she is even more beautiful ON THE INSIDE AND THE OUTSIDE today than she was back in the day because she has a well lived life behind her”
Gary- without going into ancient lessons I learned on the trails with Tex too much-
I want to give you “hope and renewal” message today 🙂
You need to focus JUST to your POSITIVES- the stable and fluid part of you…I am so glad you reconnected to your youth and the person you knew then… Special Lady Friend aka Birthday Girl….yet stay YOU in it…it is great to challenge and renw the brain just keep the flow a go—
I am glad your paths are crossing yet remember your other roots in it…k
FOCUS both to your Spiritual and the physical, the heart and the mind..if you are anything like Sonny or me than all that above does take discipline and hard work and we tend to use our hard work on the actions to life…I mean do not get me wrong…in Washington Sonny carried a Bible always around and tried to Spread the Word yet how we met he was sending me information on guns and numismatics and the dangers of mines I went into and when he sent books on religion he sent me many books on Zecharia Sitchin (an author of books proposing an explanation for human origins involving ancient astronauts. Sitchin attributed the creation of the ancient Sumerian culture to the Anunnaki, which he stated was a race of extraterrestrials from a planet beyond Neptune called Nibiru.) – I sent the books back because it was way too foreign to ME…so I rebuked it..yet as I was on the trails with Sonny and having witness some extra unbelievable moments than I was like ugh…why me…I should be making warm choc. chip cookies…I need to go home…I felt I was on another planet yet no way would I trade those times for a million dollars….
I place that challenge to both Gary and Sonny for that contest – Today you should perform a journalism exercise and ENTER the contest and cool prizes, right…
Do not change or as they state nowadays evolve
especially do not pretend or fake it until you make it with the Word-
You be you and God is ok with that
Sins and all
Faking and Omissions is worse…
It is a relationship not a religion…
Sonny has a certificate degree to be a pastor as well a PHd in Religion and Psychlogy and Geology so maybe he has something on stuff so I dug into stuff he talked about- Zecharia Sitchin is not a scholar of ancient languages. I disagree over possible translations of certain words in the books…I was looking for Sonny to produce verification of Sitchin’s translations by other experts…also Sonny- can you share why Sitchin’s work on Genesis 1:26-27 overlooks so many obvious grammatical indications that the word elohim in that passage refers to a single deity.
Okay…all right…got it…you are like the “Date Doctor” in the movie “Hitch” with Will Smith.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=50YQeugOMOw
And me…I’m like Kevin James except I don’t dress as well as he does, or dance as good.
Thanks
was about to log out
That song got me moving—
Roll it …
let’s get up and dance…
make the pizza… 😉
Right on…
Now as for me being a Date Doctor I would not be Will Smith
and Will’s moves in movie had to make his loved ones laugh because he can move for reals and is wife…
As for dating and doctoring…you ready…It’s no surprise you picked that youtube video- it fostered feelings – you watch it and you either go “oh smack, how dumb…” or your body went to moving to the melody…
Sonny and I in Sedona years ago were gonna take dancing up because he loves ballroom or what was it–oh yeah—Tennessee Waltz…Sonny loves to dance…he would have many a lady on his side as he would dance the night away…with my yo-yo weight not so much…more on the disconnect chapter but I did dance at Bumpers in Bloomfield NJ- is that aging or dating myself—oops—When I first met Sonny and he danced with locals in Dolan Springs when you saw the ladies and him all you could feel when watching was blushed or they were wrapped up in a vertical expression of a horizontal desire legalized by music…really…A lot of men are scared to dance publicly…men with high levels of the sex hormone testosterone dance differently to men with low levels of testosterone…it is very true…
You do not need a dance doctor or dating doc either – what you do need is to know the woman who stood by you for decades I honor her time with you and I am so very pleased God shows you the roots phase to your life because with your breathing you would for sure get the “pension seeking” ladies like Sonny because they figure you are about dead but what they do not know – You and Sonny are here to stay even though some social areas wish we all did not with our healths, eh…
Hope your life like mine and Johnny’s did had this phase:
https://youtu.be/1qc5bAgZ0uY
because it is all about the madness…
I miss that phase to my life- I wish I could find a physical trainer who knew my health stuff and told me HOW to get there with barely ay breathing and etc…
Night, gary.
you know what be Special Friends because anything else might not be good for youe psyche 😉 (soft soft giggles)
Thanks for the Happy Bday Sonny…I actually had to go hmmm…2019 minus 1972 equals OH MY… hee hee….1972 was a really good year for a lot of you…signs hung up in the Forest Service that said “MEN WANTED! A ranger must be able to take care of himself and his horses under very trying conditions; build trails and cabins; ride all day and all night; pack, shoot, and fight fire without losing his head….all this requires a very vigorous Constitution. It means the hardest kind of physical work from beginning to end. It is not a job doe those seeking health or light outdoor work…INVALIDS NEED NOT APPLY!
Thanks Joy, but FYI…”what you do need is to know the woman who stood by you for decades I honor her time with you”, that woman…is dead to me. I didn’t start this…but I’m going to finish it. You know…just FYI. 😎
And pretty much so are my Black Holes For Money, whoops, I mean my adult children, I need to get my fuckin head examined.
No really…it’s time to get my fuckin head examined and I need some of the pension money I spent 30 years earning to do that…plus, a lot of help from my new friends (as if the 1st) at Medicare.
God Bless America and Socialism! Every old person who isn’t on President Trump’s Christmas Card List is either a Socialist or a VERY LOW INFORMATION PERSON, and those people…just can’t be helped.
Young people, you still have options. Old people….are generally OUT OF OPTIONS…just FYI, unless they happened to be named Sonny or Charlie or Tex. Some people…really can’t be killed.
Because you know…when I look back at the totality of my life, I am starting to see a pattern emerging.
It started with the USFS and goes like this.
Step One (1). – Use Gary Up.
Step Two (2) – Throw Gary Away.
Step One (1). – Use Gary Up.
Step Two (2) – Throw Gary Away.
Step One (1). – Use Gary Up.
Step Two (2) – Throw Gary Away.
Step One (1). – Use Gary Up.
Step Two (2) – Throw Gary Away.
Step One (1). – Use Gary Up.
Step Two (2) – Throw Gary Away.
Step One (1). – Use Gary Up.
Step Two (2) – Throw Gary Away.
And I’m really fuckin’ tired of it! So…nobody else gets to use me up and then throw me away! Mostly…cause there just isn’t that much of me left that’s worth much! 😎
You know…I’m still waiting to hear,
Matthew 25:23
SCORE! BOOM💥 GOES THE 🧨
I might get a handle on this Bible Speak after all!
Reminds me of Ted he would dress up in suit and tie wearing combat boots. Everyone loved him and he was school president three times in a row only because he ran only three times. I had two boys that would hide down when they would see friends because I had an old jalopy boat of a car to take them to school in–please let us off a block from school Dad.
Not Ted he would have me drive right up to the front door crowds, get out and say hey that’s my Dad.
My last memory was a photo of Ted teaching his little daughter in a the library at Las Cruces.
It is such a terrible thing to loose a loved one, especially a cherished son. How can a good God take his soul before mine? I was one never to blame God for his death. And there are seldom accidents–a death usually has a reason–in his case it was much like the young ones at Yarnell–a boss did not take care of details related to safety. Ted was able to live another ten years after his arm had been wenched from his body. He never again could use it or feel anything–even a hot stove if he happened to be in contact he would not know until he smelled his burning flesh. But the pain and finally upon changing doctors and new meds he passed away. That nurse said two meds should not have been combined–watch what even a doctor gives you.
So now you know the rest of the story and why Sonny has empathy for the loved ones and wants the truth about the GMHS deaths known.
if IM vanishes looks like someone has a forum:
https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/yarnell-hill-fire/7697
https://wildfireintel.org/about.html
Like I said this is the Summer of Facts to The Front –
Clay Templin and Mike Reichling and anyone who played Public Information Officer on the Yarnell Hill Fire will hopefully begin to SPEAK UP before the rest unfolds and I say that because if you keep quiet like Alan and others are doing in Prescott area- it is out in the right spots
I told them to SPEAK UP
Jefe has his part to share in this and should share too
This is just one person on here who I hold up in the highest regard and respect yet there are others to share in different areas as our Summer unfolds-
I for a long time said SPEAK UP but you carried on distracting and redirecting and shame on you especially people who trashed me behind the scenes as I always stayed the high ground.
God has the plan…stay the course…
Now for this lawyer up mentality – I assure you that will only get you so far – the data is out in very elite areas. There is not a lawyer who can scurry out of this … I assure you of that. I know some think other tragedies were swept under rugs but I am here to support Brian Frisby and sharing the Yarnell Hill Fire in its pure form this Summer 2019. Some media was drawn this year to interview him and other Blue Ridge yet remember it is the names not in the SAIT – SAIR that needs to be interviewed.
I said for years I never keep anything on me and I will not…Dr. Ted Putnam taught me that very early on because of stuff he shared behind the scenes…I want to thank Steed’s true friend and I hope his others friends stand by this man and does the right thing versus being scared of unknowns… time to take that leap and DHD is right – the men deserve it – the families and friends deserve it and the world.
Y O U should look in your own kids eyes today and celebrate the 4th thinking yeah I gotta stop focusing to the unhealthy part of my family and focus to the right thing so my kid knows I did right…Please even if you do not have kids and you have parents who lost a home in the Yarnell Hill Fire and you are broken by your actions on that fire…it is okay to share now- Your parents probably wanted to protect you from the world and the loved ones who they became close to now after the fire.
Social Media will soon see people who spewed earlier this year had unjust intents and you do owe so many an apology – I donated a lot of funds to a lot of these organizations and it is time you stand up and apologize for the ill intents. It was very wrong when Holly stated she has Eric’s back when they were to make an unbiased book on the Yarnell Fire- She spoke volumes there.
Keep getting the courage – those men need the facts to the front!
Happy 4th to all-
oh and for a certain one—
this is a great idea for this years gathering of family:
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1396&bih=686&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=MiQeXcboNsTg9AO35rK4Cw&q=family+pajamas+true&oq=family+pajamas+true&gs_l=img.3…2377958.2379144..2379454…0.0..0.120.468.0j4……0….1..gws-wiz-img…….0i24.svFag4Ucbvc#imgrc=0zwT-anI8uua5M:
How about it…be a part in TRUE STORIES…
Ignite your faith in a way you never experienced
Nowhere in the Bible does it say it will be easy. But God does promise to walk with you.
Honesty is the first chapter of the book of wisdom. ~Thomas Jefferson
Honesty doesn’t always pay, but dishonesty always costs. ~Michael Josephson
( https://charactercounts.org/greatest-ever-quotes-on-truth-trust-credibility/ )
wrong link above-
https://www.etsy.com/sg-en/listing/651227422/true-story-christmas-pajamas-christmas
Tex Gilligan
Sat, Jun 29, 11:17 AM (5 days ago)
to me
Food for thinkers and something I copied and pasted here since a
leader killed his men in wild land fire fighting at Yarnell this
should be appropriate for an understanding of what was wrong in the
hiring of Eric Marsh. Joy it also speaks to the ladies good abilities
to be leaders -Yarnell Fire Chief?
“Egomaniacs are on the rise, especially within the leadership ranks of
companies across the world, which is detrimental to good business
outcomes. (my insert –thinking of Trump)
Leadership and management expert and best-selling author Ken Blanchard warns us:
The ego is one of the biggest barriers to people working together
effectively. When people get caught up in their egos, it erodes their
effectiveness. That’s because the combination of false pride and
self-doubt created by an overactive ego gives people a distorted image
of their own importance. When that happens, people see themselves as
the center of the universe and they begin to put their own agenda,
safety, status, and gratification ahead of those affected by their
thoughts and actions.
The challenge is keeping such self-centered leaders and managers from
taking their teams or companies down a path toward self-destruction.
After all, we speak of personality characteristics–some of which
border on personality disorders.
So how can we curtail the mechanisms that keep feeding egomaniacs into
the higher echelons of corporate society? The answer is not so simple.
It will require a systemic shift not only in our leadership selection
processes but in our collective minds.
Stop rewarding two typical male traits
What we think true leadership is is far from the truth. Psychologist
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic, chief talent scientist at ManpowerGroup and a
professor of business psychology at University College London and at
Columbia University, points out that we’ve historically equated
leadership with personality traits statistically more likely to be
found in men: confidence and charisma.
In his phenomenal and alarming book Why Do So Many Incompetent Men
Become Leaders? (And How to Fix It), he explains how these same two
characteristics can later backfire as overconfidence, narcissism, and
even psychopathy, resulting in disaster.
Here’s why you should not reward people–men or women alike–with the
two masculine traits we have historically elevated as “leadership
material” since the industrial age.
1. How confidence will backfire.
Confidence is often disguised and falsely perceived as a leadership
competency. In my interview with Chamorro-Premuzic on the Love in
Action podcast, he points out that while most people look at a
confident person and assume the person is also competent, there is in
fact no relationship between confidence and competence.
Competence is how good you are at something. Confidence is how good
you think you are at something. “Decades of research suggest that on
virtually any dimension of ability, we tend to assume that we are
better than we actually are,” says Chamorro-Premuzic
While confidence is good to have, overconfident leaders overrate their
ability and job performance, and are more prone to reckless decisions
because they are immune to negative feedback.
2. How charisma will backfire.
Some of the most successful leaders in the world are known for their
charisma. But while charisma has been associated with extroversion,
drive, and even more physically attractive features, it is hard to
define and measure, and it exists in the eye of the beholder.
According to Chamorro-Premuzic, “Charisma clouds people’s evaluations
of how leaders actually perform. Rather than being objective, we are
less judgmental about leaders’ performance when we see them as
charismatic, and we are more critical when we don’t.”
He also points out that charisma, when combined with narcissism and
psychopathy, is a lethal combination. However, research has shown when
followers have more information on a leader, the importance of
charisma declines.
Whom to reward, instead, for leadership roles
According to Chamorro-Premuzic, the best leaders combine IQ
(intellectual intelligence) with EQ (emotional intelligence), which
enable personal effectiveness and self-awareness. While both males and
females are equal when it comes to IQ, studies show that women have
greater EQ and, in general, perform better as leaders.
Chamorro-Premuzic also points out that a high EQ is also associated
with people-centered leaders who are more humble, honest, and ethical.
To his point, the shift to focusing on selecting and developing more
leaders with these traits–as competencies–would also help correct
the gender imbalance in higher leadership ranks, since the underlying
issue remains that we, as a society, lack valuing these traits in the
leaders we choose.
To bring this discussion home, it’s crucially important to remember
that the very traits that propel more men into leadership are the same
traits that get them fired. In other words, what it takes to get a
leadership role is nearly opposite of what it takes to do it well and
keep the role.”
I don’t know if God in the old Testament has a penis or not. I am pretty sure he does cause for the bite of an apple women were condemned to extremely painful child birth or cicerian operations. A bit of a masochist as well. Well it was i know in reference to Eve’s beguiling Adam–eat this damn apple or you won’t get any.
And I know you might have a different interpretation–I still have a hunch that someone got around to making a monkey into a human by a little DNA manipulation. There is after all a sharing we have of about 90% DNA with monkeys–a few fellows I know are more like in the 99% range with Monkeys–maybe even apes. But that is not important–just a thought that I still have a thought a woman arranged the DNA thing or men would generally be more ape like than they are.
Sorry I meant bit of a Sadist on the God thing–I think I would be thinking of myself as a uranium miner or the wild land fire fighter–you got to be a bit of a pain seeker if either one cause you will not escape pain if you are game to take up such an occupation.
And I should add, I donl’t worry about being struck dead like some might–I have already had that happen a couple times. Anyway I think a worse sin might be the cover up and lies about the death of the 18 young heroes and their leader Mr. Marsh, with et. al. involvement.
Joy likely knows and certainly others listening to comms that day knew whether Marsh knew of the other burns before committing his men to the death canyon with no way out. I would think he knew.
Either way, I realize he did the unthinkable because I just happened to be there right at the spot they went down and observing the fire behavior–needless to say called a big dog eating but more like a gorilla gone mad. But I also wanted to see if there might be some slight mitigating factors. So what say you Joy or better anyone that listened to communications that day.
Honesty is insurance a tragedy does not return in the future–an old Irish saying.
Last post for a little while. My spell check and grammar check seem to have vanished. I’m more intelligent than my poor sentence structures, time to cut and paste, more to come.
Before you run… do you know WHEN the firing operation STARTED?
There is a LOT of other evidence we can go back and take a HARD look at if there is a known TIME when this firing operation BEGAN.
Also… regarding the two FED Type 3 Engines… were they both that standard ‘aguamarine’ color that US Forestry uses? Or was one ( or both? ) of them BLM?
I’m proud of Downhillndirect. I’ve always said that order to right this ship it’s going to take people like him to have the integrity, strength, and courage to do the right thing. It’s not too late for others to follow the lead of Downhillndirect. Let’s get your real healing process started today.
Thank you Woodsman,
There is a video that was sent to me not long after the fatalities.. The sender knew that it had everything to do with why 19 men or incinerated about this powder Springs Ranch. That video was tracked down after it was sent and multiple higher level investigators stop Ed nothing to make sure disappeared. I saw it and listened to it and wished I would’ve made a copy but since The powers at be stoped at nothing to get rid of it I deleted what was given to me not knowing what I had. I know that a good friend still has that video and I know it’s going to take a lot of convincing and the fact that he may lose his career to show the world that there was no downtime in the radio and there was is a lot more sad than what people think, believe me.
The powers that be stop at nothing to get rid of it I deleted what was given to me not knowing what I had. I know that a good friend still has that video and I know it’s going to take a lot of convincing and the fact that he may lose his career to show the world that there was no downtime in the radio and they were is a lot more sad than what people think believe me.
There is no doubt that a firing operation took place. There is no doubt that people knew this occurred after it happened and stop at nothing to cover it up. Without a doubt people were told to never speak of this again and made out financially or professionally with blood on their hands. In my opinion the only innocent people on that hill were the new guys and the hikers that were there that day.
All if not most of that put together a team had no business working in the wildland arena just because it says IC or operations on your name tag doesn’t mean you know what the fuck you’re doing.
The only time the Yarnell fire and it’s overhead had control was after the fire made it’s the last big run and more people came in from out of town to really and employ safe tactics.
I promised I would call JD and discuss what I wrote yesterday and I will as he is the host of this site all of you be brave push forward and allow the right thing to happen this goes out to all of my friends you know who you are especially the ones that are still in hiding
Thanks, Downhillndirect. You are at home here and I support what you’re doing.
1. There was no communications “blackout,” was there.
2. The video you received shortly after the fatalities occurred, that you say gives clear indication that it led to the tragedy: was this the same video that was uploaded to YouTube of the the federal type 3’s and drip torches that I remember seeing?
3. If you have read anything I have written repeatedly here then you know how I feel about personnel in positions on wildfires without bona fide qualifications. Your opinion is most of the overhead on this fire was operating outside their true quals? Is that a fair statement?
4. Were any members of overhead aware of the crew leaving the black and where they were headed?
5. Would it be accurate to say this included a major lack of communication between resources on DIV Alpha & all resources in general?
Thank you for the amazing thing you are doing for the public, the loved ones, and the fire service.
Holy, Holy, Holy….
Amen.
God says, “My word that goes out from my mouth . . . will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it”
I felt like we all have been hearing all these years “white noise” – commonly misused and watered down bullshit…
I thank you for your loyalty to your friends – jobs are hard to come by even when you get the certifications built – the reputation and all the time put in-
I know Woodsman knows this…I know many know this…I am working hard on getting some others involved on IM that did the actual lighting of the fire but they all are having the hardest time posting even long time comment person Norb Szczurek ***
North Lake Tahoe Fire Protection District ***
Division Chief · October 1984 to 2014 · Incline Village, Nevada – He thanks you for the courage to step in and step up on a hard to post place like IM with captchas and etc….Respect and Appreciation is the feedback I see behind the scenes for you.
Are you Jay Kurth? I would imagine not –
I know I know…not even funny…Jay is the one WHO should be doing this… not you … that is all I will say …
Question from Norb to DHD-
1) Norb always believed that they wanted GMHS to conduct that “Hail Mary” firing operation – did you ever hear anything on this? if so by who?
2) who was overseeing the firing op? (title)
….
I have to run but I wanted you to know I have received feedback, sir-
You are healing so many hearts all across the world this week.
God Bless you and yours
Besides Jay…Joki and Cole and Schmidt and Foulk and Boness and Jeff Andrews— can you all chime in?
Please?
I get so tired of HOW MANY slept all these years and kept getting promoted…
The reason I pick on Jay a lot on my blog and here over time is because he says rubbish and he never replied to my requests and emails and how David Selden verbiaged to Valli Goss— this lawyer knew NOTHING what Goss was up against….
so much twists and turns and bullshit that I am really grossly sickened how this all turned out…For David Larsen and Pete Masiel I will keep doing this…
Valli Goss,
Feb 24, 2015 10:51am what that lawyer stated to you- did you have to chuckle – that man has no clue about the case he had at hand and the DISRESPECT he stated to you- rubbish!
Attorney Valli Goss’s online
LinkedIN profile and work history…
https://www.linkedin.com/in/valligoss
She says she is now ‘retired’
When she was working for the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health, she became the ADOSH attorney who actually handled the ‘settlement’ between ADOSH and Arizona Forestry.
From the LinkedIN link above…
——————————————————–
Valli Goss – Work Experience
– Industrial Commission of Arizona ( ADOSH )
– Assistant Chief Counsel – 2014 – 2016 2 years
Served as lead counsel on high-profile cases, including representing state OSHA on the Yarnell Hill Fire/Granite Mountain Hotshots workplace fatalities tragedy.
Negotiated settlements and advised Special Fund Division on claims management issues.
Communicated in person, by phone and in writing with media and members of the public regarding public records requests involving high-profile matters.
———————————————————–
In reading the Forestry Logs July 2013 and its content as well and other areas the past day – and I will post more names- this is a first set of them.
let me add more names out in the public…so at least when YARNELL IS GOOGLED it comes with your names who were in the know so early on…
I mean Jay should not be with the added names last night alone…
Curtis Heaton needs to wake up and stop living in denials that was either dealt to him…but we know he knows because he has certain verbiages he says behind the scenes to others that leaks back to me…so let me add him…
please the following please let the World know what you know on the YH Fire no matter how small the details even if it was just this or that—share- come here and share…Bill VanBruggen, David Geyer, Tom Harbour, Scott Hunt, Judy Kioski, Sean Triplett, Glenn Buettner, Kirk Rowdabaugh,, Carrie Dennett, Cam Hunter, Matthew Benson, Tommy Kelley, Jerry Payne, Devin Boness, Ralph Lucas, Andrew Owen , Gene Trobia, Rick, Aaron Green, Russ Shumate, Justin Smith, Randy Redmond, LeeAnn Beery, Gene Beaudoin, Jerry Payne, Ted Moore, Kevin Kinsall, Kirk Rowdabaugh, [email protected], Charlie Smith, David Staub, Will Brewer, Al Hendricks, Bequi Livingston, Norval Tyler, Kenan Jaycox, Petrilli, Godot Appuzo, Brad Mayhew, Randy Okon, Tim Foley, Zimmerman, Richa Wilson, Brent Wachter, Wendy Smith-Reeve, General Salazar, Ryan Owens, Will Schulz, Ryan O’Daniel, Chuck McHugh, John Burk, John Dirickson, Ethan Riley, Mark Howard, Matthew Parks, Nenette Alfonte, Gregory Roybal, Mike Dudley, John Phipps, Kim Sabow, Clint Chandler, Senator Flake, Alan Sinclair, Lisa Monaco, (RIP Dave Larsen and Pete Masiel), Digital Globe (Andrew Steele/Glenn Reese Bthomassie/Mark Andel/Glenn Bethel/) , Del Hierro, Richard/Hill/Laura, Ronald Bertsh, Robert Roth, Ryan Becker, Paul Linse, Williams/Lani, Intterragroup Brian Collins, Al Hendricks, Alix Rogstad, Bruce Banke, Ryan DeFord, Christopher Budreski, Cliff Pearlberg, Crystal Luster, Dale Brown, Darrell Craig, Dave Behrens, Dave Fritzsche, Davi Birtcher, Debra Stanley, Emma Caufield, Jack Upchurch, Jake Guadiana, Janine Schuster, JD Ottman, Jim Downey, Jim Etshokin, John Richardson, Josh Hudson, Justin Smith, Karl Zeller, Keith Pajkos, Ken Butler, Kyle Mccaty, Larz Garcia, Laura Heath, Vizcaino, Mariya Litvak, Mayra Parrish, Merrill Simon, Pat, Cirincione, Patrick Rappold, Paul Mains, Phil Bruglio, Phillip Elliot, Richard Holly, Roy Hall, Shannon Kelly, Susan Burger, Teresa Coria, Teri Cunning-Rice, Tina Waddell, Tony Parks, Will Brewer (anyone thinking of posting and know these people ask them to post too here on YH Fire please), Beth Nehring, Kevin Kinsall, Art Morrison, Kathy Peckardt, Ann Dockendorf, Joe Sciarrotta, Michael Hunter, Scott Smith, Henry Darwin, Lorna Romero, Pete Wertheim…
I am adding this specifically because someone I know is close to one of those names and I want that person to see who was part of the initial beginnings of YH Fire aftermaths…caution caution caution…these people should be out there just sharing what they know pertaining to the fire because they are in my records…and the more folks SHARE the less OMISSIONS can happen…right?
I just curious why did they pick Brad Mayhew instead of Ted Moore? just curious….cough cough…darn cough 😉 anyone else curious besides me and Ted Moore? I mean Ted laid it all out his quals for the position July 1st 17:06. Why Brad? Why the missing Human Factors section in the SAIT SAIR? Soon you will learn why…and homeowners of that Yarnell/Peeples Valley community who are still alive remember the screw ups on the news it was because the PIO was given our 50 then 209 then 200…PIO- Public DISinformation OFFICER is right, RTS.
My point in above—most named were not even the many Crews out there and you are gonna tell me only 1 man so far has come to IM with all the CAPTCHA bullshit and spoke up- come on…
Thank you DHD!
Sean Triplett (NIFC),
Just curious by your emails I am reading to why you wrote at 10:40pm June 30, 2013, to Brian Collins, Brett Thomassie and [email protected] about your confirmation of 18 dead and the gps locations of the upper left imagery you requested that evening specifically of 34.3093,-112.8316 and where the fire was not …lower right –> 34.1987,-112.7282—Was that just to get a current imagery for ???? but at 10″12 PM the Governor Jan Brewer knew it was 19 in her signed declaration…
Joy,
Thanks for posting this.
It’s rather ironic that the number of GMHS fatalities is only “18” at almost 11 PM at NIFC, just as it was “18 confirmed” when BRHS True Brown replied to OPS with that number in one of the videos.
Unless that is his “18 confirmed” to the YH Fire OPS that NIFC used in their email.
more names to add-
almost 600 people assigned to Yarnell June 30, 2013, and there is just ONE BRAVE SOUL
Hooray to DHD!!!!!
what was it resourced that day – 10 air tankers (including 2 dc-10) , 7 helicopters, 5 fixed wing aircrafts, 27 engine or water tenders, 18 Crews (20 on a Crew), 4 bulldozers, 1 Type 2 IMT, and 1 Type 1 to transition from 6-30 into 7-1-13 and ALL THOSE PEOPLE and yet only one came and finally SPOKE UP…very ashamed of the Fire Industry to allow this type of behaviors…
more names to carry on…
Drew Sexton, Hal DeKeyser, WadeWard, Bob Harrington, Todd Mead, Antjony Cox, Timothy McDonald, Jane Aljumaie, Travis Montgomery, Dean Webster, Ginger Brudevold Black, Terrie Zuiderhoek, NV Pete Anderson not Yarnell Pete, Clifford Dils, Bill Crasper, July 1st 555pm Jim Karels,
Michelle Ashley, Lauren Thomas, Andrea Cline, Candace Bogart,
Brian Lauber, why would your June 30, 2013 ICS 209 be redacted so I cannot read it- can you email the unredacted,sir?
Gene Trobia, why is the NGA imagery redacted from my records- just curious?
I am going bonkers reading and listening that I am gonna shut down early tonight and take bunches of oxypowder – slowly releases monatomic oxygen to the intestinal tract and body. –
Nothing all this time has helped…bloated like
anyone who seen me lately seen it-
https://www.alamy.com/a-bloated-pufferfish-krabithailand-image61840006.html
OH WAIT for three hours Medical Massager Dee Sickles did relieve the upper portion with Doterra slim and sassy- it temporarily helped with her hands on manipulation and even she thought head to toe mess—
I am doing the work to stay afloat so it is good I am bloated up like floaties to stay afloat…
again thank you to DHD and I hope you do call JD and share more because it is all about to come to the front
Like Curtis Heaton said- the information will hurt our friends and someone told Pfingston about did she want them to see prison time or something like that…
I saw her husband Jerry this June 30th at the courthouse along with other family members and it is not an easy journey….I mean here they cancelled us to a fundraiser at the GMHLC19 for the 19th of June but they allowed us in their spot engaging and talking with us not even getting the nasty letter they sent by certified email and email was the very people they engaged with on June 30th at the mall…I just do not get it- it almost felt like someone else did the letter under their name because these folks treated us well and I even signed the guestbook…Stranger world.
I sat long enough with many stretches and dandelion intake-
the pain just royally blows.
I hope you all are having a nice weekend…
Great galloping horned toads—where did you come up with all these names Joy–and you say there is more? Wow so many on the Yarnell fire roster. They have to be talking among themselves–Investigative Media people need your input fellows–much more valuable than mine since you were there and your input will be history in a good way.
John D. of IM allows anonymity if you prefer–why I use Charlie instead of Sonny.
It is hard to believe that many people that were engaged in the Yarnell fire yet only a handfull have come forward with information–You do not have to give your name–but the people on IM will greatly appreciate and welcome your take and knowledge.
I realize it must be scary to speak among people of long time wisdom at fire fighting–WTKTT< GARY–Norb–RTS–Dr. Putnam and so on but these facts belong to not only the community of wild land fire fighert but the public paying the bills and paychecks for all in the FS and other public services. I have met many of the retired wild land fire fighters–they back down from nobody and tell it like it is. Why they are where they are and not by being afraid to voice what they know.
They welcome opinions, religious ideas, and especially information that might save future wild land fire fighter lives–something they by proxy are obligated to do and so are you if you happen to be a wild land fire fighter that was on the Yarnell fire. You know the least bit of information you think might not be relevant can be the tiny bit of the puzzle that solves the mystery. Why no matter how unimportant in appearance–in truth seeking it is important.
Living a lie is a tough way to fly–hard on the mind and tears up your health–but once a lies is perpetrated then it takes more lies to continue the origional lie and down the line when those that are demanding the truth challenge then the house of cards begins to tumble. Mr. Donut has been a prime example of someone trying to fake it to make it. He has fooled some of the people and his cronie associates who have acted as his friends have advised him to keep his mouth shut and be one of the “good Old Boys”–where lies to keep the ties continues to be the game.
He knows better than come here and give his line–the long time wild land fire fighters would give him a good raking for his performance as a fire fighter and also for his deceptions.
Oh did forget to say my intent was not to step on anyone’s religious toes. I am happy with your belief even if you think God is a stump and tell me so or the poor tree that made the stump. My Gods and Goddesses and Jesus and God, etc are all good if they are good.
I have some welding to do getting that wench on and no winch to help–well that is OK and I am OK if you are OK–so be OK and as Joy is saying help with the truth of the 19–any God will reward for helping reveal things that will save lives of some of America’s finest.
Talk about a hero–DownhillnDirect is fearless and honest. Thanks for clarifying so much that we have been in the dark about.
What I really wanted to say didn’t include my paragraphs repeating themselves like a uneducated moron. I get the internet security but not being able to edit or see the obvious mistakes is frustrating. Enough of my rant.
I put myself out there for two reasons. #1 because the people that were there are deathly afraid of speaking up and #2 the lies and misdirection have been so normalized people, not all have accepted the lies as truth.
I have watched entire families destroyed by the incident and entire friendships suffer to protect the myth that there wasn’t anything wrong with everything that was and is to follow, In the morning I will go into depth of what I know to be true. I need to make some housekeeping changes and then I hope to engage in dialog with everyone I hope, Thank you for allowing me a voice kind people
DHD,
Thanks for posting and updating everyone. Yes indeed, this fire and almost everything about it is rife with all kinds of its own special demons
Downhillndirect ( DHD )…
You have our full attention, sir.
Thank you again for coming here to talk with us.
No apologies necessary for posts not coming out quite the way they were intended, sometimes. We have ALL had our moments with that, and we have all, from time to time, lamented the fact that posts cannot be ‘edited’ after they are submitted.
If things get confusing when trying to ‘Reply’ to someone else’s questions or comments, please don’t hesitate to just go to the bottom of this page and create a whole NEW ‘parent comment’. Sometimes that’s just the easiest thing to do.
I assure you, after 28 chapters and ( literally ) tens of thousands of comments, those of us who frequent this forum know how to ‘find’ new comments or replies wherever they might be appearing.
Right on Joy–can’t say it better. It has been a very long road for most here and if you are like Joy or myself you have invested not only time and finances to the cause of getting to the facts and truth of the Yarnell Boondoggle, you have suffered consternation and a bafflement of how this could have happened. We know that only the facts can explain what went wrong at Yarnell and especially the reason for the deaths of the 19 young heroes. It is essential that the facts come out–and I agree–there are many that have crucial knowledge that will change matters to insure better safety to the firemen and correct the defects in the system that resulted in what we saw at the Yarnell wild fire operation.
Lives of firefighters and citizens involved in a wild fire are to be put above considerations of reputations or mute orders and black outs of information. I can assure you Joy does have information as do others that will help remedy the obvious shortcomings in the wild fire attacks.
My sincere thanks to those that have revealed so much. I am as anxious as anyone to see the real story to fruition.
JOY,
“The darkest rain clouds are potential backdrops for the brightest rainbows. It all depends on coincidence and conditions.” -FISH- (Derek W. Dick)
In case you haven’t figured it out… YOU are the rainbow…you always were.
Gary,
,
Everything I just said about Charlie applies to you, too. I love you, my surrogate brother, and all your stories, and if you ever write that book, I will buy it in a heartbeat.
Power on you big, beautiful, Juggernaut!
Thank you Harold, but you won’t be able to buy the most magnificent book ever written about Wildland Firefighters in general and hotshots in particular for any amount of money.
All of my experiences, knowledge, skills and abilities (KSA’s) and even my education belongs to those who paid for me to earn them, the American people! So everything I write will be available on line as a free download.
Now…theoretically the professional grade photographs I am using (although all of the bad ones…I took) belong to my former squad boss and close friend, Mark Jefferson, who was working at Glacier Bay up in Southeast Alaska the last time I heard to support his habit…professional photography.
And since I learned a long time ago to NEVER ask the question that I don’t want to know the answer to, I wouldn’t even ask Mark if I could to use his photographs to illustrate the wild land firefighting and hotshot lifestyle that I have been trying and will continue to do, as I do my best to share that lifestyle with the masters I proudly served for so long…the American people. USA! USA! USA!
FYI…in our darkest hours as hotshots, we would frequently console ourselves and each other by saying, “Yeah, but it’s not a job…it’s a lifestyle.”
And COPD or not, I can assure you that if I had the chance to do it all over again…I would (as Stevie Nicks sings) except I would try harder to get it right next time. God Bless America and I hope everyone has a GREAT 4th of July as we remember and celebrate how we kicked King George’s and the Redcoat’s asses while the rest of you Five Eye Pussies (Canada 🇨🇦 New Zealand 🇳🇿 and Australia 🇦🇺 ) stayed with the program and our common Mother and Father…Great Britain 🇬🇧!
But…we can mostly forget about that today, because we have been like a great big family again for a really long time and we will be like family (although usually a dysfunctional one) now forever.
Because we can now all focus on and remember the immortal words spoken by Sir Winston Churchill, who in addition to Jesus Christ, both Fred and I have a very deep respect and admiration for, and is a man as we both like to quote whenever possible. Even though he probably didn’t really say any of the following variations…at least for the first time.
(1) Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing…after they have exhausted all other possibilities.
(2) The Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, once all other possibilities have been exhausted.
(3) You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they’ve tried everything else.
(4) The Americans will always do the right thing… after they’ve exhausted all the alternatives.
So…take your pick, because none of them are probably historically accurate as quotes from Sir Churchill.
But here is one of my favorite singers singing some of my favorite quotes, even though she didn’t write them, Bon Jovi and some other dude did.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lOI0HLlZsB8
“Sometimes It’s a Bitch” [and sometimes it’s a breeze.]
Clarification,
I don’t think of any of the words sung by Ms. Nicks as a metaphor for love, because to me, her words refer to how I think of my career.
And that’s a bad video, so forget about it, just watch this one. I just used it because it has the actual lyrics, but I didn’t watch it first and it really sucks, so….
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2l8PQq5mU
Whoops…my bad!
And I am posting this one because it’s stupid and fun and right now…I only want to think about something stupid and fun.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6tuzHUuuk
I do want everyone to know however, something I have always said on this thread. I have always had the deepest love, respect and admiration for Jesse Steed as I have consistently defended his actions, however wrong, as understandable and in my book…even excusable.
Jesse Steed was the man I always wanted to be…but was never able to become because I was so weak and deeply flawed.
I agree, Gary. You know how important it has been to me to make damn sure the record showed that Steed in fact refused the order to take his men down that chute multiple times before giving in. I’ve talked to people in person that served on other crews with him & they all said they thought very much of him. He was put in a terrible position by the Prescott FD system.
Thanks Gary.
And that is a big mystery to me Woodsman. Why would Steed, a Marine give in knowing the odds were against survival? And what about the 17 others–one of whom had taught his wife to never go down into a canyon with a fire below it . One thing I noticed the men were exhausted and downtrodden just getting up that mountain –now they worked line for a time then rested and in the photos do not look so bad? That heat that June day was above a 100F even on top of the Weavers. It with the burn I now know was being done nearly killed Joy and I that day–If we had ten minutes I am not sure since people were fleeing right before our eyes as we approached that old Jalopy of mine. I did not see any firemen but that fire was already burning a few hundred yards up the street on Foothills drive as we made our exit.
I doubt we would have survived that burn but with the luck of the Irish I think so, however looking more like Frankenstein than I do now. The brush in places was some thinner and again we had boulders to the North as we exited but the distance and our exhaustion as we reached the Jalopy was at its limit before collapsing.
For certain that Yarnell ordeal was a nightmare that will be with us until the day we die. To avoid the reality and present a glorious picture to the public is almost as much of a nightmare as the incident itself. Maybe the yahoos covering their tracks and attempting to hide the facts have no idea that without the truth changes will not be made and this nightmare will continue to be relived.
Steed ultimately gave in because of Marsh’s personality, he had a family to take care of, and was in line to be promoted to lead the crew in the near future. He just needed to get through a few more challenges and his world would have become better. He didn’t make it. I wish he and the rest of the crew had made. The other crew member who told his wife you never go into canyons ended up following just like the rest because they trusted their leader. Scott Norris did as well and he was trained under a conventional FS hotshot crew.
with the research and records and FF accounts I do disagree that Steed was next in line…
that is a drafted post for the future because each leader in that Crew will be shown over time.
I disagree Steed was being groomed because he simply failed in getting some administration areas and other stuff…
I do agree that Marsh was not going to be next in line and will be in a future post…
Well, that was my understanding. Thank you for the correction!
I believe that Steed ultimately gave in mostly because of his Marine Corps training and experience. His family and a likely promotion came next. Warneke’s knowing to never go into canyons and Norris being an avid student of wildland fire fatalities. The other Rookies knowing only to trust in the leaders …
ALL of them succumbed to the known insidious, infernal, deadly “hazardous attitude” influence of GROUPTHINK, clearly posted in the NWCG IRPG.
Coupled with their 2012 Holloway Fire “bad decisions with good outcomes” and their “steady drift into failure” – that is the ONLY explanation for 18 young men to do what they did, counter to their training.
“Leadership in extreme contexts: A groupthink analysis of the May 1996 Mount Everest disaster”
The authors “propose an alternative potential form of groupthink in which the group’s cohesiveness results from the shared pursuit of a collective goal rather than from strong interpersonal bonds between members.”
( https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jls.20190 )
( https://www.scribd.com/doc/274612728/Burnette-Pollack-Forsyth )
The first one you must pay for and the second one offers a 30-day ?? free trial period, so bust a move and expand your horizons
(
And finally, Norris was trained by an UNconventional USFS Hot Shot Crew.
This enigma was what the SAIT self-proclaimed Lead Investigator, Mr. Brad Mayhew was supposed to examine, investigate, and write about … and failed to have a “Human Factors” chapter or section in the SAIT-SAIR!
W … T … F! <b/ "
Yes it is too damn bad Steed was not in charge above Marsh because it is obvious with his argument he was not wanting to go down into the trap–he must have understood what was going on and knew there were burns being done making the attempt even more dangerous.
After reading the posts by DownhillnDirect it is obvious the men in charge knew much more than they are wanting the public to know.
It does sound like Marsh might have been at the Helms and perhaps one of the Honchos right there breathing down his collar. Why else the reference to Phingston about possibilities of jail time. It seems to me that more than just Marsh are involved in committing those men to the green while knowing about the burns and dangers to do so.
It is something that a citizen could be easily fooled about since we seldom question those in charge. But the Yarnell thing has been just too obvious at hiding facts, redacting, removing video evidence, mum orders and outright threats to people willing to testify of what they know, saw and heart relating to the causes and deaths of the 19 GMHS.
I hope this sparks some Federal Investigative agencies that are not connected to the crony system seen at Yarnell. It will definetly take that kind of shake up to insure changes to stop this kind of wild land fire fighter killings.
Sonny,
You make several valid points.
You posted that Steed “must have understood what was going on and knew there were burns being done making the attempt even more dangerous.”
I agree that he likely knew what was going on because the GMHS had the best overall view of the entire YH Fire, save Air Attack.
However, as the Acting GMHS Supt. he failed to address the GMHS safety and concerns to DIVS A directly using “direct speech” but instead hinted around about it and used “mitigating speech” addressed elsewhere in previous posts.
It is true that DIVS A never really relinquished control of the GMHS to Steed; and that was from a very short distance, yet still within arms-length; so he basically did his best to control the ensuing situation while doing his DIVS A duties, and especially controlling as the time window shrunk and the stress levels increased and he succeeded in getting the GMHS to concede to his demands.
I want to also address the most important causal factor issue of supervisory responsibility.
No one forced those men do do anything. Influenced yes but definitely NOT forced. In what manner were they “forced” to do anything?
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again and again and again and … :
The only thing that is most important to every wildland fire supervisor is the SAFETY AND WELFARE of those they supervisor. NO MATTER WHAT
DIVS Z and the GMHS basically wasted “52 minutes” [Blow-up to Burnover] arguing while “discussing our options” over the GMHS discreet Crew radio channel in their virtual, yet deceptive “lunch spot” in their “time stood still” mode in a perfectly good Safety Zone while the fire weather deteriorated and the fire behavior increased exponentially .
Swedish researcher Dietrich Dorner wrote the amazing book “The Logic of Failure: Recognizing and Avoiding Error in Complex Situations” and discusses the power of “exponential changes” several times.
( http://cjbibus.com/STCT_DornerquotationsWhole.htm )
“We find an inadequate understanding of exponential development, an inability to see that a process that develops exponentially will, once it has begun, race to its conclusion with incredible speed. These are all mistakes of cognition.” (pp. 33-34)
“A quantity is said to be growing “exponentially” when its value at any time … is its previous value multiplied by a particular number, the same number each time. … In a linear process, a quantity increases by the same amount, not the same multiple, at each step. … A number of psychological experiments have demonstrated that an incapacity to deal with nonlinear time configurations is a general phenomenon.”
“Clearly, … people tend to badly misjudge non-linear [exponential] growth.” pp. (pp. 110, 111-112, 116-117)
Notwithstanding the established conclusion that wildland fire deaths by fire are inevitable, it will take true and complete lessons learned to insure the needed changes to lessen or reduce this kind of WF and Hybrid FF train wreck.
RTS–then who would be actually responsible for those deaths–obviously most of the men were not well qualified to understand wild land fire fighting and safe procedures to keep themselves alive.
Would you say 5 of them might have been qualified enough to understand the gravity of what they did by dropping off in a box canyon choke full of manzanita?
So Marsh ordered them down by request of comfort level–Steed objected but caved in to Marsh —-so do you think they bear equal responsibility?
As someone said it is hard to disobey orders–the consequences might be plenty.
That was truly bad decisions with a bad outcome that as I understand from the posts was a given with the GMHS super–before were bad decisions with fortunate outcomes until the dice rolled snake eyes–
This whole operation had been a confused mess–fortunately but by very close margine that civilians were not killed. Joy and I did not know how close death was since we had no clue that there were burns going on beside the wild fire toward Peeples Valley. One more ten minute rest stop and we would have been toast.
I had an opinion that the area was really set up to burn and wondered if areas are restricted, set aside then burned after posting the document we observed that was removed. I wonder why they would remove such document since it had a good description of the danger of that area restricted.
CORRECTION:
This post is incorrect: “DIVS Z and the GMHS basically wasted ’52 minutes’ …”
It should say: “DIVS A and the GMHS basically wasted ’52 minutes’ …”
And once again I revealed my ineptness in another bolding attempt
Sonny,
Both DIVS A and Steed would be actually responsible for those deaths with Steed more so since he was the Acting GMHS Supt in charge of their safety and welfare
I disagree, those men were well qualified to understand wildland fire fighting and safe procedures to keep themselves alive. Even though they had several years of bad decisions with good outcomes, they were still good outcomes.
I would say more than five of them were qualified enough to understand the gravity of what they did by dropping off in a box canyon choked full of manzanita. Remember though, they had done something similar at least on the 2012 Holloway Fire in NV … and gotten away with it.
Marsh did order them down and Steed objected numerous times, but eventually caved in to Marsh. They both bear responsibility but unequally because Steed was in charge of the Crew.
Yes, it is hard to disobey orders sometimes and yes, the consequences might be plenty. But look at the fatal consequences of obeying Marsh’s orders.
Yes indeed, that was truly bad decisions with a bad outcome and before the YH Fire the GMHS’s bad decisions resulted in fortunate outcomes until the dice no longer rolled seven and rolled snake eyes instead. The steady drift into failure.
Agreed that the whole operation had been a confused mess and you and Joy, by the Grace of God, were very fortunate to make it out of there unscathed.
Except for proposed RX Burn projects, I am unaware that areas are set up to burn whether they are restricted, set aside then burned afterwards.
The posted document you observed that was later removed is rather perplexing. I also wonder why they would remove it since it had a good description of the danger of that restricted area.
Here is something to ponder about DIVS A’s decisions and actions that day.
“An individual’s reality model can be right or wrong, complete or incomplete. As a rule it will be incomplete and wrong, and one would do well to keep that probability in mind. But this is easier said than done.
“People are most inclined to insist they are right when they are wrong and when they are beset by uncertainty. (It even happens that people prefer their incorrect hypotheses to correct ones and will fight tooth and nail rather than abandon an idea that is demonstrably false.)”
Quoted from Dorner (1989) p. 42
It sure seems to match a lot of led up to what ultimately occurred that afternoon on June 30, 2013.
Oh…and one more thing. Mark was a great hotshot and friend who always shared his gift of photography with others. I know that if I did ask him for permission to use his work to demonstrate to you what it means to be a WLF and hotshot…he would wholeheartedly agree.
Thanks RTS for the response–clarifies the situation, although I see some sort of culpability in my civilian way of thinking when the lightening strike was allowed to go unattended for so long. Yet you are correct since the fire was on then the leaders are now concerned utmost to the safety especially of those that are under supervision–the younger men and women involved.
It is hard, since I would like to give Steed a pass and even Marsh, but the facts are the facts and have to be considered in light of what actually occurred and what actions were taken.
Damn we all err at times–but when that error involves lives as we saw at Yarnell it tears at the heart. But the lessons are many and if action is taken to change the mistakes made then future lives can be saved.
I have to believe that none of this was truly intentional–yet when you see the risk taking demanded needlessly then you certainly realize the necessity to look very closely at the men directly in charge of crews and the factors that could cause them to risk lives so recklessly.
.
Sonny,
I agree with everything you posted, including wanting so much to give Steed a pass. However, he was their Boss and had a HUGE responsibility for their safety and welfare.
Whether it was unintentional or not rests on DIVS A’s questionable intentions and actions with ordering them down the hill.
I appreciate you posts Gary–you are correct–Americans are bound by our birth in this country to do the right thing and your post and good words apply to our brothers to the north as well.
Harold your posts are encouraging and keep us on our best behavior. I will drink to that mate.
Charlie,
You are one of the most fascinating people I’ve never met. You are a legend in my book and if Hollywood truly wants to make an interesting movie, they need look no further than you.
Happy trails!
Thanks for the compliment Harold but the real heroes are these wild land fire fighters–It is so sad that they are so underpaid and the state has no conscience concerning their health –most if not all will in their later years have to go through maladies of health for their service to the country. You can see they are in as much danger as any man on the front lines of a war. Then so many of those young fellows have to endure death and injury either by accident or design. We saw it in Uranium mining and some of the people there, those down wind, workers in the mills and military personnel subjected to bomb blasts from atom and hydrogen bomb blasts were given a monetary fund to help with health problems developed from the aftermath.
s Carole Gallagher wrote a book called “Ground Zero” that interviews many of those people and their health issues. If you read that you will get strong emotions for those people and the fact many had no idea they were being subjects of heavy fallout from the over 760 announced nuclear explosions. Fifteen percent leaked radiation fall out into the air and over 100 were nuclear bombs detonated above ground including at least one hydrogen bomb. People in St George Utah were reserving motel rooms so they could see the mushroom clouds. And little did they know the westward winds were carrying that Fallout most heavily into that town and those west of the Nevada Test Site. But the whole northern hemisphere suffered from those blast since they go high and then are spread out to the world.
It is so similar to what is going on with the retardant and chemicals–and almost the same thing with the public being fooled. Most people had no idea the consequences that radiation would have in their future–for instance St, George, Cedar City and any town immediately down wind had high incidences of leukemia and other cancers way above national averages. Some believe John Wayne, although a smoker, had been affected by the fall out since he had done a film near St. George in the fall out area–herds and many horses kept the dust in the air for those people on that film and of course smokers are the worst affected by radiation.
I do mention the retardant often in hopes some of our elite politicians or other people of clout will take notice. How dare they dump unknown chemicals on residential areas and even the poisonous known chemicals. Yet like the uranium miner and those that thought that radioactive fallout was a joke, they continue to carry on as if it is of no concern. If you get a copy of that book, all you would need do is replace those names of people suffering of diseases they should not have by the retired firemen–It would read the same.
I do believe many in the FS and especially the retardant business know that their chemicals are dangerous to health just as the scientists that were experimenting with the many atomic bomb blasts knew what the effects of that radiation would be–yet those scientists kept their mouths shut–likely for the same reasons many people are quiet in the FS and chemical related industry.
Yarnell is proof of the pudding.
correction –east of Nevada Test Site–wind blow to the east generally
Harold: Dear brother in arms, etc.–I am always happy to wake up above ground even though I really had spent enough time underground to already be accustomed . But in reality sunshine is best and with friends like you and those we have known to the north we are blessed and keep on smiling.
Happy independence day to all.. Joy get over that bout of illness–use that Vitamin bottle and drink in a little of IM to supplement.
+Ok –a flashback to 1976–Legionaires Disease that many of you remember–tainted air from air conditioners–in fact that disease had killed some 16 I think in 1953 once they began tracing it back. It had been a killer all along–keep your airconditioner water clean–was it 37 or 34 American Legion Vets-some had served in the Korean War and other places–but 200+ came down sick and close to death in the Philadelphia incident.
What they learned was that people that were under 50 and working in the offending Hotel –none came down with the disease. In fact the great majority of the deaths were in the 50 and older age bracket. Smokers were the worst affected–I think 17 of the 34 were smokers. The majority of the survivors were non smokers and considered in better health than most that died. I am a life time member of the American Legion–very unlikely to die from that disease–I have a degree of enochlophobia–fear of crowds-I do avoid crowds and city life like the plague.
That is good because a number of civilians caught the disease by just standing in front of the Hotel–the mist coming down from the air conditioner infected them.
But fast forward to the Yarnell chemical slurry dumps. Again we see that most of the residents that died in great proportion to what should have been an average death rate were also in the 50 and older age bracket. The younger set survived for the most part in flying colors–there were however a few in their 40’s that died or ill from the chemicals. One was Kevin Black–healthy as a bull and loaded lots of metal after the homes burned and worked in those burned our houses getting it and cleaning things up. He did not last long, cancer took him down fast. Joy is another youngin that waded the run offs, trekked through the retardant until her face and clothes were black–over 900 trips and now she is feeling some of the effects in a bad way. Well a 200 and rising death count in six years since 2013 is at above 37 people a year. Eight is the norm for a population of 1000 in the US. With 645 residents in Yarnell, the norm should be 5 people dying each year. Folks, 37 is more than 7 times the normal death rate in the past 6 years. The only thing connected to those deaths is the dumping of the slurry in massive amounts on the surrounding Yarnell in 2013 and the next dumping of more slurry during the subsequent Tenderfoot fire.
The shame of the state and EPA health agencies is that they don’t give a damn–apparently to them the retardant slurry is just what the FS and chemical companies say it is–just an inert substance that only kills fish by the hundreds of thousands.
Whew are some people not dense or else calloused in conscience.
Now we fast forward
Reply to Harold post on July 2, 2019 at 5:27 am
>> Harold said…
>>
>> On another note, could someone tell me how to quickly way to get to
>> the top/bottom of the page. Preferably a keyboard shortcut.
In most browsers… just pressing the END key will immediately jump to the bottom of a page.
Push comes to shove… you could just do a quick CTRL-F word search for the word ‘Copyright’.
That should actually take you right to the bottom banner on any IM Forum page.
BTW: In most browsers…. the HOME key also takes you all the way to the TOP of any page.
Thank you for all the help you’ve given me ‘WantsToKnowThe Truth’
I finally got around to listening to the MacKenzie video and I transcribed it, then compared it to yours and they almost matched. ‘You bet’ and ‘Too Bad’ gave me some trouble, but at 0.65 speed I settled on ‘Too Bad’ if it was Marsh…’You Bet’ if it was someone else.
I noticed Travis Carter is not the one who says “What were feeling all day” If you look close he spits while that person is still talking. Play it at 1/4 speed and watch him and I think you will agree, it’s someone off camera who says it.
You’ve been at this a long time, and I know you’ll never give up, so I hope some day you find your TRUTH.
Thanks for listening.
Reply to Harold post on July 3, 2019 at 5:20 pm
>> Harold said…
>>
>>
>> I finally got around to listening to the MacKenzie
>> video and I transcribed it, then compared it to yours
>> and they almost matched. ‘You bet’ and ‘Too Bad’ gave
>> me some trouble, but at 0.65 speed I settled on
>> ‘Too Bad’ if it was Marsh…
>> ’You Bet’ if it was someone else.
Thank you for taking the time to do that.
It’s always good to have another set of ‘ears’ on this kind of stuff.
Personally… ( and even though my own transcript says it remains undecided ), I have always believed that what happened there was that Marsh FINISHES what he was saying with that down-inflection ‘Ya know’… and then SOMEONE ELSE who was participating in that conversation then says ( quickly ) “You bet” to Marsh, agreeing with whatever else the content of Marsh’s last statement really was just before the start of that video clip.
The VOICE that follows Marsh’s “Ya know” really does NOT sound like Marsh’s voice.
Only then did Jesse Steed press transmit and insert his own statement of “I Copy… and it’s almost made it to that two-track road we walked in on”.
So I still believe it is possible there was some other THIRD PERSON participating in that recorded radio call… but there has never been any testimony or evidence to indicate who that THIRD person might have been, or what he was saying “You bet” about back to Marsh.
If there was a THIRD PARTY participating in that radio call… then it would actually not be clear whether Jesse Steed’s “I copy” was directed at Marsh, or directed back to that THIRD PARTY who may have actually initiated that particular radio call itself.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> I noticed Travis Carter is not the one who says “What were feeling all day”
>> If you look close he spits while that person is still talking.
>> Play it at 1/4 speed and watch him and I think you will agree,
>> it’s someone off camera who says it.
I did exactly what you suggested… and here is what I am seeing.
Travis Carter’s MOUTH does not even enter the right side of the video frame until after whoever said the thing that makes the other Hotshots LAUUGH has finished their statement.
So I guess it’s actually impossible to know whether that really was Travis Carter making that comment, just before he ‘spits’.
Only someone who REALLY knows what Carter’s voice sounded like might be able to tell.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> You’ve been at this a long time, and I know never give up,
>> so I hope some day you find your TRUTH.
>>
>> Thanks for listening.
Thank YOU for taking the time to do this!
Again… it is ALWAYS good to know what might be ‘hearing’ in these recordings.
Whoops… typo in the last message. Left a word out.
Meant to say…
“Again… it is ALWAYS good to know what OTHERS might be ‘hearing’ in these recordings.”
I am sorry if I am a little slow but not quite dense. If there was another voice while Marsh was talking to Steed at 5:20 then someone knew exactly where Marsh was and his actions at that time and what Marsh had done. Maybe WTKTT or Gary can help me here–is this to do with Roy Hall’s statement to Phingston –the you don’t want us to go to jail thing?
If someone was there and this is not in the documents then now I am beginning to see why the desperate moves being done and lies, orders of mum and redactions, etc.–it would have to be someone high up the ladder in the cronies to go to all the extremes of cover up we have witnessed.
Reply to Charlie post on July 4, 2019 at 9:50 pm
>> Charlie said…
>> If there was another voice while Marsh was talking
>> to Steed at 5:20…
That video clip was not shot at 5:20 PM.
That second ( of two ) 9 second video clips shot by GM Hotshot Christopher Mackenzie was taken at exactly 3:53:54 PM.
Those clips are still sitting exactly where the Prescott Daily Courier first published them, on YouTube, on September 28, 2013, just shortly after the actual SAIR report was released to the public.
That would be right here…
Video Title: Granite Mountain Hotshots last video by Christopher MacKenzie – 99,326 views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omfw_Unt_VQ
Both the Prescott Daily Courier AND the SAIT originally thought those two 9 second video clips were shot shortly AFTER 4:00 PM. We are the ones ( here ) who discovered that Mackenzie’s CANON digital camera was actually timestamping everything 8 minutes and 16 seconds AHEAD of the REAL time that day.
So if there WAS a ‘THIRD PERSON’ talking over the radio in that second video clip, that conversation was happening at exactly 3:53:54 PM.
And since the moment those video clips became public there has ALWAYS been the possibility that the second clip contains TWO voices on the radio ( Marsh and someone else ) in addition to Jesse Steed’s foreground “I copy” statement.
This has been discussed lots of times… but there was never a general consensus about exactly what is said after Marsh says “ya know”… or WHO might have then said either “You bet” or “Too bad”.
But I still stand by what I said to Harold up above.
I ( me, personally ) am still hearing Eric Marsh FINISH what he was saying with a down-inflection “Ya know”… then someone ELSE ( over the radio, not there with GM ) quickly acknowledges whatever Marsh just finished saying with “You bet!”… and only then did Jesse Steed press transmit and add “I copy… and it’s almost made it to that two-track that we walked in on”.
So yea… if that is true… that means that video clip has always been proof that some THIRD person WAS participating in that 3:53 PM radio exchange.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> then someone knew exactly where Marsh was and
>> his actions at that time and what Marsh had done.
Maybe. Maybe not.
There just isn’t enough conversation captured in that video to know what Marsh might have been saying just before it started.
If there WAS a THIRD person on the other end of that radio conversation… that person might still be able to recall exactly what Marsh was saying at that time.
The ADOSH investigators had access to these Mackenzie video clips… and their own notes say they suspected there MIGHT be a THIRD PERSON being heard participating in that radio call… but they never followed up on that.
Thanks WTKTT and that makes it quite clear. Also it the fire almost to the two track it meant that it was locking them in on the west so there was no possibility to reverse which would have been very difficult making the steep climb back up toward the two track. Wow what a sad situation to know that they would die by doing something that the leaders all had to know was a big risk.
I just wanted to say thanks Harold–I do believe your posts have sparked helped much in sparking interest here. I sometimes feel off beat here since I am not a fire fighter or even have relatives that are. You do and that makes a lot of difference I think.
Amazing –we are getting some strong material now concerning the truth of what happened.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479701
Woodsman,
Thanks for reaching out…and don’t worry… were all good.
That post wasn’t directed at you, it was for everyone, I just didn’t want anyone to think I was some DOH! NUT sitting here all hopped up on Canada day celebrations.
You told me from the start things can get rough, here. I am an outsider, and I always will be. There’s no way I could possibly share your passion for this, I can only recognize it.
My forte is problem solving, but there’s no problem to solve here, therefore I am functionless.
The rules aren’t broke, and had they been followed, we wouldn’t know each other and 19 families lives wouldn’t have been shattered.
It’s just that simple…
Thanks for listening.
Harold was a good thought using a chain saw to try to dig–unfortunately the rocks would have prevented–you can see the pylons full of rocks they gathered in the immediate area–but had they been in the sand draw it was likely full of pretty good sized rock mixed in the sand.–about their only chance would have been the boulders–if indeed the fire was coming from the north east then they should have had only about five minutes to dash to the boulders as well.
I know there was a video of the torching at the Shrine area, but no time on that has been said and most deny that it ever happened despite several beside Joy and having seen the event and later having also had the video removed from the site. I was thinking it was a u tube posting and I had always believe once on there it could not be removed or there would be at least a permanent record. I am not sure what it was posted on but Joy found it so she would know. We spent a lot of time and trouble to verify the location to be sure we were not seeing a spot like it in the Peeples Valley area since there were guys in that area doing burns. We identified it to be 100% right above the shrine–and then the video disappeared very soon after. I think early on because we were in contact with so many and talking about what we saw there was the reason some culprit got wind and had it removed. There were some dirty rats doing their dirty work to make people believe a fairy tale.
There were lots of coincidences–some that an investigator of a crime would have raised his eyebrows plenty high. I mentioned a few before but these guys know you have to have proof no matter how bad things look for them. And if you can lie, use black markers by the dozen, order people to keep the facts the know to themselves or face dire consequences–and then never take any blame for your actions because everything is sanctioned by the courts and other officials–how convenient it is to be a liar. You are in the cronies now–and they will always say “I’ll watch your back” and that is no matter how much you fabricate.
Ok but digging with a chain saw would not go far–they dull fast and the dirt would clog. They might have done with a shovel and pulaski–you can dig damn fast if your life depends upon it. It is such a horrible though–even with Marsh’s stupidity there was a possibility of some type of survival right next to them but not seen. And that bothers me after watching Marsh at least since he knew by his early morning actions–the boulder area was the only chance–he did not tell them but again no one knows where he was, yet I have to believe he had been perched on one of those boulders above Helms so he could have some view of the fire. That violent wind change he knew was coming did come but his roll of the dice to beat it drew snake eyes.
The next question was what the hell good was it for him to run back to the men and why. He had to know he was committing suicide or was he so ignorant of manzanita fires and the use of fire blankets in them that he thought he could survive.
I would think he had a pretty good knowledge of the manzanita situation since they had not long before fought the Doce fire and that was every bit as dense as Yarnell. So surely his actions were a suicide knowing if he survived he would have to take responsibility for killing his crew.
It is sad anyway you look at it. Marsh seemed to be a nice guy but had somehow weaseled himself into a position that requires a knowledge and method of doing things that he did not have–or if he did was willing to by pass that and risk the lives of his crew without thought.
Some of the other bosses were saying this guy is dangerous–he was after all taking on jobs some of them had refused–he got his men out alive but barely and nearly lost his equipment in a couple cases just as he did at Yarnell. Yet apparently their hands are tied and likely to make a complaint or point out what Marsh was doing would be a no-no in the fire fighting business. Maybe it is a brotherhood type situation like with cops–when some brother is stepping out of line it is better to look away and do as they did at Yarnell–cover the situation so the public does not get a look at a bad situation. And besides all kinds of shit can happen shaking hell out of the boat. Well I know it is that way since Putnam knew when he stood against the Storm King conclusions he also said he was ruining his career–but to his character, he did what was right and took the flack. He put lives before his career and reputation–made some enemies but could live with a good conscience.
I do think there was more than just the main fire that killed the GMHS–that burn at the Shrine was very close to where they were and would have burned in that canyon that was dense with oak and other brush and would have been contained in the canyon almost unseen from where Marsh would have been in the boulders. There was a sparseness on the side of the canyon toward the Helms so it would have been contained for a time but when those 40mph winds came it would have shot out of that canyon and once over that ridge hit the dense manzanita on the flat beyond the Sesame road and then went up the death canyon at a tremendous velocity.
I keep seeing that fire in my minds eye from the two track and it was quite a distance off toward Peeples Valley when the wind reversed. But that canyon burning by the Shrine was only maybe a mile and a half vs. maybe 5 or 6 the other way.
I was quite confused when we came out–I knew enough to keep moving as fast as possible but I had figured we should have had another 30 minutes to an hour even once the fire reversed. Of course with high winds it is hard to predict but it seemed to me after much thought that indeed it was the Shrine burn that had nearly caught even us.
But as everyone says where is the proof. And some have classed me as a bit of a kook–so they say well old Sonny –he even thinks Marsh might have had an alien implant so he could not help himself since the aliens had wired themselves into his brain. But I think that is more plausible than God made them do it cause he had other plans for them. Shit what a God if that is the way he operates. Sounds more like Allah that likes lots of blood of infidels I do not recommend bumping your head five times a day to any god–that shit can cause brain damage–but you might have some already just to do it.
And I don’t give a shit–if you believe in shit it is on you–not me. Same goes for the so called investigation at Yarnell concerning the 19 deaths–all involved–it is on you and not those that know it was a farce and are taking notice of how you and all your partners in crime had botched the Yarnell operation and then have been working ever since at covering your tracks.
.
Charlie, thanks for this post. there’s a lot of answers to questions I had in there. Your knowledge of the terrain in the area is unique and valuable. I had wondered, for example, how the men would miss a ?backfire? from the Shrine area.
And thanks for the info about chainsaws. I have no experience with them so I didn’t know if it was a good or bad idea. I figured it wouldn’t work, but I wasn’t sure. It just came to me, and so I thought it must be worth mentioning. Shovels would be the logical answer.
But just as the other guys (RTS, Woodsman) said, it doesn’t matter anyway because that is just supporting flagrant decisions to ignore the established rules that work.
I regret making those posts, and I should have listened to that little voice that was telling me not to do it. Now they’ll be here forever, I will need to be more careful. I never posted on a website before, until I came here, that was one of the reasons I was so hesitant, in the first place.
As far as aliens, well who knows?… I haven’t seen God either…
Either way, I don’t think Eric Marsh needed any help from a higher power, to make a bad decision, I do it every day by myself…
One more thing…
If God does exist, can you imagine how pissed-off he/she is right now, that Eric Marsh’s ‘F-up’ has been blamed on him/her?
Psalm 14 (NIV) “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.”
Psalm 53 (NIV): “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. 2 God looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
And God is a He. Only the pagan mystery religions promote female goddesses
Just saying …
Now see…this is exactly what I am talking about and why I need to wear a wire and have Fred in a listening post so he can help me with the conversation if I ever get my Special Lady Friend to go out to dinner with me.
Because you know..after a “go to hell” and a few decades, that’s always a heavy lift and some great Bible verses at just the right time, could very well carry the day!
I mean…I know I love Jesus just as much as Fred does, but I’m just not as expressive as he is. Although my potty mouth clean up is going very well…wouldn’t you agree?
I have been washing my mouth out with soap on a regular basis and I think it’s starting to really pay off!
Oh..and one more thing. I have really been focusing on quoting President Trump from his visit to Liberty University.
“Two Corinthians 3:17, that’s the whole ballgame. … Is that the one you like?” Trump asked. “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”
But…I don’t want to bet the farm on just, “Two Corinthians 3:17,” Am I right?
A few decades my ass…it’s been almost half a century! Time really flies…even if you aren’t having much fun. Just sayin….
God might be androgynous–or anything he wants at the time–I have a feeling as Babylonia tables say that a female goddess scientist whipped up the DNA formulae to create man and likely there were some Minotaur beings from screw ups in the formulae if they were not done purposely. But good old Jesus–he is old if he was there before when things were created–and good because his ideas of goodess are legitamate I have a bathide in religious studies but there are plenty smarter than I in that and most of them never bothered with the bathide thing. But I can not argue religion to anyone–beliefs are usually brought about by influence and we believe the influences we want.
But I will tell a true story here about beliefs. I had as you know perhaps left a very good paying job in Minneapolis, MN. I was selling gold and my commisions were at about 4 grand every two weeks. Gold was cheap in 99–around 300 and I knew it would jump –some must have gotten wealthy –well were already wealthy to buy 200 thousand at a time.
But in 99 I got a call that they were about to buy my son Ted, someone so close I not only considered him a son but held him in the highest place in my heart. He was the person any father would have been proud to had as a son. To hear of his death and that he was to be buried in just two days was like sticking a dagger right into my heart. I grabbed a few clothes and the BMW–used but a fine car was not what I needed to get back to New Mexico in time for the funeral–I peddled it quick to I think a dope dealer the way he had to go to his place and dig out his stash. A plane ticket to Phoenix then back to El Paso and finally a call to a nurse I had known during my college years got me a ride to Deming. I married her by the way a week lated then divorced her two weeks later in Vegas.
But I wound up on the streets–that emotional trauma was too much for me to bear and I needed time to recover. I wound up in Seattle and then after some time I found myself in the VA Dom at White City, Oregon.
They had a guy there named Jerry. And would you know the only brother I have is named Jerry. He got in with some dopers and wound up Life in Prison–but that is another story and we are totally alienated for each other.
So this Jerry was explaining that he had an entity in him but it had saved him many times–one a VW had hit him when walking across a green light intersection but the entity had saved him by dragging him back enough he only wound up bruised and with just a broken leg. The entity had informed him that he was his saving grace there. I informed him he ought to get rid of that damn thing since it sounded to me like it wasn’t much good since he had wound up with a broken leg. He said he had thought about it but decided he needed it to survive.
I got to thinking –shit if I had made this entity pissed there was only a curtain dividing our bunks and who knows what he might tell Jerry to do–asleep one minute and dead the next by a stab in the heart?
My solution was to go next day to see the Priest at the chapel they have there for the Vets. The Dom has chaplins for both Catholic or Protestant believers. I knew both the chaplins but opted for the Catholic side.
That priest was a character with red socks always and stood out enough. He had a solution for me and sent me to the pharmacy for a plastic pill bottle. He blessed some water and filled the pill bottle with the holy water. He said to sprinkle this water about the room and some on this Jerry if possible.
This is duly preformed–and I did hear the sheets on his bed sizzle. I got a little water on him unbeknownst to him–and he turned ape shit. Meantime the Dom leader and a psychologist showed up. This guy was now accusing me of stealing money from him and all kinds of crazy shit. The psychologist got wind of my asking for and getting holy water and what I was going to do. So I was the one moved and to a room by myself–a blessing at that.
So I guess the point is believe what you want –this is America and Independence Day. Also it might be a good idea to sprinkle a little holy water on a few involved in the Yarnell Incident–and I would not mind a little on me as well.–never hurts to have a little insurance.
typo–bury my son at Deming, NM
I figure most of the Gods, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, –just about have stood back for the most part and let us do our thing. Do it in good order and with truth and the end is good. Sow a weed and you get a weed–sow a good tomatoe and you get a tomato. Old Jesus had it pretty well figured–he don’t need us in some other fire fighting adventure in heaven or another galaxy–this life is a long learning process–I am a late bloomer–why I am still hanging on I think. –one thing the older you are the faster the days. That is said in the Bible–to the Gods a thousand years is as a day. Whew talking about fast time but dealing with other dimentions and billions of years–our span of life is less than 5 minutes in the time line.
I was a bit angry when Joy took me off life support–that was my orders before if I ever was on it, I should be taken off –my son did the same at the second death when Charlie had shot me in the back. That one I remembered dying–not too pleasant since I at the last did not want it. But waking up in the hospital and I guess the three months there before I signed myself out were damn painful. That was the only time in my life I was demanding some pain meds–I usually have a high pain threshold.
I don’t know if it means anything but dying in one instance wasn’t that bad–that heart attack pain is excruciating but once you die not bad at all.
People on this post are very forgiving for errors or fau paus –good thing because mine are plenty. I have to fogive me to or else I would spend too much time at the confession booth.
I have a wench to put onto that 86 Nissan–went to Clifton AZ today and back in it–the mileage was so good I thought I was making gas cause the gas gauge kept climibing toward full. Well I ran out somewhere about 20 miles out of Lordsburg–but not bad cause I found a gas can near the freeway, got a quick ride from a trucker back to town and a quick ride with a rancher back to the place I had an empty tank. I had about a mile of hiking in all that which was needed after all that driving–found a nice pair of channel locks and once I got a couple gallons in that tank was on my way home again. When I filled some 30 miles down the road it took only 14 gallons meaning that tank only holds 15 gallons–now I know to keep a couple gallon container along or replace the tank sending unit–well maybe both things.
So if tractor supply is open today I better head in and make some use of Independence Day. Tally Ho.
Your concept is sound and I have written quite a bit about it in my MOP. Don’t give up on yourself, you instinctively know more than Darrell Willis did because he praised their decision to deploy their fire shelters on a RISE in the ground. And there is a huge problem here that needs to be solved, how to counter communicate the very dangerous ideas people like Willis and others pass on to WLF, like fire shelters are a good idea and can save them. Darrell Willis was in charge of Structure Protection for Peeples Valley and his safe zone and deployment area for dozens of WLF were tennis courts…where he would have killed everybody.
And it’s like almost everything here…it’s nuanced, because I don’t mean to say fire shelters can’t and haven’t saved WLF, because they have.
But I believe if those WLF hadn’t been carrying those fire shelters in the first place, they never would have allowed themselves to have their safety compromised enough to need them.
I never thought of fire shelters as anything more than dead weight and I never, never, never, would have ordered my crew into them to die….never, ever.
The example that I used years ago here is pertaining to the California Highway Patrol CHP (a lot of my examples are related to law enforcement because I spent so many years in that area.) Anyway, from a training session I attended, many years ago, CHP switched from using Harley Davidson Motorcycles to BMW’s for their Motor Officers. They switched because the BMW’s weighed a lot less, had far superior handling, and especially far superior breaking.
So..CHP’s accident rate initially went way down, but eventually their accident rate crept back up to about where it was before they switched. It’s been a lot of years ago…like 20 or more, so I am fuzzy on the exact details of this example.
Anyway…the reason that happened, was because their officers began driving FASTER and taking more CHANCES because their new bikes were so much better once they became accustomed to them.
I think there are similar examples of that phenomenon throughout our society. If I was more ambitious and it really mattered to me, I would look at the historical stats surrounding air bags for one. But…I don’t need to be convinced, I think all fire shelters should be fed to the wood chippers before they can kill again already.
I do believe THEY are LYING BIG TIME when they say hundreds of WLF have been saved by fire shelters. I don’t personally know of one single legitimate example of someone being saved by deploying a fire shelter.
I’m not saying it’s never happened, I just don’t know of one. Although it sounds like the Zuni Hotshot (?) might have been one? Depending on the exact circumstances of why and how she (?) got into that situation to begin with?
Thanks for the support, Gary.
I have been meaning to say for some time now, those deployment bags are just fancy body bags. I just didn’t want to sound disrespectful.
And there’s a name for that phenomenon you mentioned, I just can’t recall it right now.
It was in a book I read, just recently, and I have re-ordered it from the library, so I’ll let you know.
That’s if WTKTT doesn’t beat me to it…
Right on! Google “images” of them and you will see how very much they look like what we used to call them and think of them as, turkey basting or roasting bags.
And I was never, never, never, ever going to slow roast my crew. There were times I could have killed some or even most of them because everyone makes mistakes including me, and I made a couple of serious ones. One in particular on the Valdez Fire Of 1982 on the Pecos RD of the Santa Fe, But…I was never going to slow roast them because I owed them more than a death like that.
And I don’t think they would make very good body bags because the bottom is completely open and a lot of the body fluids would run out and really make a mess. Just sayin…
Here is something to ruin every thinking person’s day.
https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/article/21003261/yarnell-hill-widow-amanda-marsh-shares-her-story-firehouse
😎
Gary–does Darrell Willis carry a fire blanket? They might be good in structure fires to hold in front of you so you could get a closer look. Poke a couple holes in them and throw the blanket over your head kind of like how Mexicans use a serape. They might help as you run from a wild fire to keep from burning your ass.
That might even be a good KKK item instead of the sheets and running around burning crosses.
Just trying to imagine some good uses for those things.
WFSTAR: Fire Orders ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWiuTey03Yc )
Watch this and you’ll readily understand why our WFs and FFs continue to f**k up and have burnover, entrapments, fire shelter deployments, and fatalities
Something came to mind–Joy does have some UFO photos–that ten acres I camped on then moved hugh boulders up the mountain to for a miniature Stonehenge had given me lots of UFO sightings.. Some that Joy had taken photos of. One in particular was a UFO and from it were shooting green lasers to earth. I thought this must be some secret government experiment because the lasers were directed from the UFO down–or from the ground to the UFO–no telling by the photo which way. In truth we had not seen the lasers until we looked at the photo. The same with some others that Joy had taken where we were looking at a UFO and then the photo when blown up showed 5 craft about the object.
But thinking about how the area was officially posted off limits and restricted with greatest fire danger classification (talking about the area of the death canyon), then seeing Helms did a thorough job of prepping his ranch for a fire, I am ever the suspicious type. We actually did not learn of the Helms even until some of the people, one being Leonard, told us about the job he and others had there doing the work–and in the photos you can see how well groomed it was. Taking the post about the restriction to enter that particular area made me believe something was going to happen or that type restriction would never had been posted.
So if the feds can shoot green lasers either up or down to a satellite or whatever that UFO was, then can they also make lightening come out of the sky with no clouds in view for miles? Well it is said that lightening can happen 6 miles away from a storm and no clouds present. The storm we were viewing was to the NE and about where Prescott City is. There were no clouds that day. But the other thing I never found the tree that was struck or any of the fulgerites that might have happened had the lightening struck the soil. Joy and I searched the area several times looking and had seen the smoke on the West side of the Weavers from the Congress gas station when Joy’s friend Rhonda had pointed it out to us. It was easy to identify the canyon or more or less gorge that the smoke was coming from.
I had some thought if you were going to start a burn for that area and you were in the area and lightening happen to strike then would be a good time to set one surreptitiously, that would be the time to do it, or alternatively if lightening did strike you could just set back and let it take its course until it was no longer controllable.
As every cow boy knows too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. Something ain’t right, too much and too tight.
Joy did that laser also shoot off from that thing into space? I remember that it was going to the ground in one of those photos–why I imagined it to be a government experiment. Maybe they are getting things set up for laser war to destroy satellites or incoming rockets> who can know–if Yarnell is any example and that is not even a classified situation–then there is plenty going on that the ordinary working stiff has no idea about. A bud and a football game is enough–Let Trump and Comp do the thinking and their thing.
I did see a bit of Beto on the tonight show–he is a fairly local fellow and looking to go for the Presidency–El Paso is not far from me–about 45 miles if I take the dirt road way and avoid going to Las Cruces. I like some of the things he says but too little to know much yet. At least he is not a bully and seems to listen to the people that he wants to represent. The people that run things are supposed to be servants to the public. The Hitler types that absolutely demand their way or else put me in the mind of the Eric Marsh incident. You can over rule but once you become a Tyrant then danger for the people you serve can and does increase many fold. My own thinking -=maybe some like a King or Queen they are ready to bow to any moment without question. Does not matter nor make you the worse but I stand on the sidelines saying what?
I did notice when Chow se dung or what is that Koreans name–and Trump met on the DMZ thing that Kim Jong looked a bit like a miniature of Trump. I need glasses but only for reading–otherwise distance was pretty fair–something I will keep from both those fellows if at all possible.
I forgot to mention that the ten acres I had near Dolan Springs by the crow flight was not that far from the famous ( or infamous depending on your take) called Area 51 where that engineer that left there said he worked on real flying saucers and even News Photographers have taken unexplained UFO photos doing stunts that no aircraft we know of can do. So I might have been seeing and Joy might have been photographing some government classified experimental craft. I know there is hardly a person in Dolan Springs that has not seen some sort of UFO thing. Usually they talk about a cylinder type thing not a saucer.
Draw your own conclusions–if they really are back engineering downed UFO craft we would never know. And if they say they have these things you never know if it is a ruse to scare other countries or a fact. Well we have seen the latest technology and I hope the aliens have better luck –those stealth bombers had a habit of crashing –one actually crashed within a mile of where I was living at Alamogordo. That pilot had hung up in a telephone pole after ejecting and there was his parachute still hanging after he had cut himself loose. And I guarantee there were enough military personnel around with AR-15 rifles locked and loaded protecting the perimeter.
I can almost bet there was a nuclear bomb aboard as well. These things we will never know at least for a century when the new technology will make the stealth look old fashioned. But as my Dad used to say, you won’t know anything a hundred years from now.
Dad had left home when he was whipped with a trace chain due to his step mom informing on him not doing chores but fishing in Horse Creak. And as Harold speaks my Dads spirit does smile. Dad left home at 14 never to return or even go to grandpa Gilligan’s funeral. He made his way to Canada and worked on some of those big farms. He said they were the nicest people and fixed the best meals. Pay was only 50 cents a day and the labor day long. But then times were hard and 50 cents would buy a lot more than now. He had bought buckets of beer in Chicago for a nickle a bucket at the brewery.
But he was like all young men of that time–he would join the Army at the young age of 15 and serve till it ended The Army needed bodies and were not to strict in making sure of your age. Besides the family Bible had the birth dates and it had burned so Dad was never sure if he was born in 1896 or in 1899. But the way he described those old browning machine guns and his experiences in Alsace Lorraine I knew he had killed a few. He was quiet, a small man in stature at 5′ 6′ but I guarantee some he came against would say he was more the size of a gorilla. It was a good thing he was a bad shot or he would have added a few notches on his rifle.
Those guys fought for a different freedom and thing–now they are police state subjects and hang around places like Iraq and Afghanistan until someone shoots at them and then they check to see if it is OK to return fire. No more war, just policing things.
The Irish are a neutral country– fight among themselves but never as bad as we did in the Civil War–or they have taken a few pot shots at the Englishman that did not belong in Ireland. So they got into the UN forces because of the European Common Market thing–and now they did have to do some policing–quite a documentary on their ordeal in Africa at Jadotville. I can see that the UN can be another Marsh type operation where the leaders that direct things are apt to do stupid things to get your outfit killed–but that is military–yes sir, no sir stuff and like I was once told when I dared ask a question in boot camp–“If we need any shit out of you we will squeeze your head” so you shut up and strictly obey orders on a daily basis.
But one thing I was older when drafted and third best rifle shot out of 300 qualifiers maybe why I was not bothered too much. Being the best shot out of 300 sounds like a brag but the fact was most of those guys had never held a gun before the army–I had one since nine years old and was using it on a daily basis to bring in the bacon so to speak–it was really usually wild pigeon–they eat good and craws full of acorns–I can’t imagine eating a domestic city pidgeon.
Those were in the Burro mountains–pidgeon if you are not a hunter is like dove, a red meat but tastes different. Quail is a white meat like rattlesnake but preferred over rattlesnake. We did not eat rattlers since we had seen some bite themselves when fighting with a Gila Monster and also knew they ate rats. Maybe they did not get some of the diseases of rats but hanza virus is not pretty–though a good fry probably kiills most any disease even that of rat meat. . This hasn’t to do about wild land fire fighting but I was thinking of Harold in Canada.
Friendly Fire….
I’m new to IM and this God Forsaken captcha wall.
I am here to answer any questions about my friend Jesse and what I know to be fact on 6/30/13.
I am A FF so name dropping isn’t something I feel comfortable doing. After 2.5 decades of Hotshots/Engines and Paramedicine, I have forged many good life long friends in our small Fire Service family. I can’t say where I’m from but I can share what I know being in an inner circle of people that either showed me personal video or what was told to me by those that actually did the Firing.
I’m at a point that I try to keep my personal and emotional thoughts out of what I am going to share but I understand I lost a very good friend on June 30, 2013 .
And ordered firing assignment/backfire occurred in the Sesame/shrine Corredor‘s right up until the fatalities occurred. I spoke with the gentleman that explained in great detail of what they did what they were asked to do and I could tell it affected them in a very deep way .
Operations section chiefs must approve that type of firing structures and firefighters in an adjacent to their assigned areas. If it was approved I have not read anywhere where Abel or anyone else approved The last ditch effort firing show. On any fire I’ve ever been on that type of tactic must be approved on and agreed to by all parties in the area.
The proof of the firing show was all over YouTube and I haven’t looked in a while but the way they were firing and in the direction they were firing definitely shows in my opinion and their opinions of a lot of people that that firing show severely affected the rates of spread from the main fire that ultimately incinerated 19 people .
Of course people don’t want anyone to know that that actually happened but I spent days talking with this individual that I could tell felt great remorse for firing an area that wasn’t confirmed clear of people/citizens or firefighters .
That type of gross negligence would shut down city state and federal entities if it was brought up to the point where it is re-investigated. The fact of the matter is that it did take place and a lot of effort has taken place to divert any public information towards it happening or not. I’m here to say that I did from the things I’ve seen and the people I’ve talk to The fact of the matter is that it did take place and a lot of effort has taken place to divert any public information towards it happening or not. I’m here to say that I did from the things I’ve seen and the people I’ve talk to.
So many ROE’s were broken that Most people directly involved have tried to permanently forget it or a scarf and anyone that knows the truth. A lot of work was done by some of you to show multiple columns and different fire behavior they didn’t exist as the thunder sells collapsed.
Most people directly involved have tried to permanently forget it or scarf and anyone that knows the truth. A lot of work was done by some of you to show multiple columns and different fire behavior that didn’t exist as the thunder cells collapsed. I really think it’s worth talking about again so that people will know without a doubt that it did occur and not being lied to is some thing none of us take lightly ligh I really think it’s worth talking about again so that people will know without a doubt that it did occur and not being lied to is some thing none of us take lightly lightly.
I’m here to talk about it as much as I can but again I need to stay employed. I believe I can do so in a way that builds momentum so that those of you that are truly investigating it yourselves can bring that to the table when the time is right. I’m here to talk about it as much as I can but again I need to stay employed. I believe I can do so in a way that builds momentum so that those of you that are truly investigating it yourselves can bring that to the table when the time is right.
It is fantastic to see so many intelligent people questioning the events in 2013 and I hope that I can be of service and help answer any questions that may come up that I can answer. I’m grateful for this for him and for all of you that have made it what it is today.
It is fantastic to see so many intelligent people questioning the events in 2013 and I hope that I can be of service and help answer any questions that may come out that I can answer. I’m grateful for this for him and for all of you but I’ve made it what it is today. I will check daily and hopefully be able to answer anything I know to strengthen what has already been said, thank you.
Terrible grammar, IPhone Spell check, sorry about that
DHND or DND, which do you prefer?
Excellent post and thank you so much for filling us in on several missing links that we always knew were there that contributed to this “Friendly Fire” debacle.
I know you were likely frustrated by the captcha like all of us. So thank you for being persistent. We all have auto-correct demons and spelling errors.
Thanks again
Thanks downhill direct–no problem –I do worse and seldom proofread so lots of errors–fogive me for my botching the King’s English at times.
Your posting is much appreciated–what Joy and I and several others in a burn photo of guys using the torch was a video but we never had a time line on that burn–did you have an approximate idea of the time frame on that. I did not know who had posted the video nor who had removed it. Also was a document ascribing the area by the Helms and in that canyon that was dated June 16, 2013 that had a map of what I believe was a half section covering the canyon that GMHS deceased in. That area had been declared a restricted area with the highest extreme fire danger rating. It was signed and officially sealed yet when we went back to the FS document file it was no longer there. Did you have any knowledge of that document? Some have accused me of having an overactive imagination–but those were things Joy and I both did see.
My sincere appreciation to helping get things ironed out.
Sonny,
I hope Downhillndirect doesn’t mind if I try to partially answer your question on timing of the firing. Downhillndirect did say:
“And ordered firing assignment/backfire occurred in the Sesame/shrine Corredor‘s right up until the fatalities occurred”
Hopefully Downhillndirect can clarify approximately when it began but it was stated that in occurred all of the way up to the deployment.
Trying to help…
Thanks Woodsman–that time frame when it was ordered is important. Good you clarified.
Downhillndirect,
From the bottom of my heart: thank you. This type of honesty will have the greatest chance of saving lives. I suspected this scenario almost from day one. Prayers for every effected by this to have the courage, as you do, to come forward. I want healing for everyone.
Downhillndirect,
I’m sorry for the loss of your friend.
I understand completely the limits of your answering ability as it relates to keeping your job etc. That said, see if you’re able to help me out.
What was the extent of the firing in the Shrine corridor? How far towards the Boulder Springs Ranch end did it occur? I’ve suspected this for a long time. What type of resources were at the BSR and did any firing occur there? I understand a pumpkin was setup there so that always made me believe it may have been for water supply for a burnout. Since the ranch was deemed “bombproof” and identified as a safety zone, I wouldn’t think they needed a pumpkin/water supply to protect structures there.
Can you say what types of resources were in the “last ditch” dozer push corridor? Was the firing performed by type 6 engine crews, other engines, or crews?
I’m in the process of formulating a ton of questions right now so please stick with me.
BSR had a Type 1 ENF crew on the East side. The firing was don by Fed type 3’s and they hung the fire up north of where the box canyon rim came down to the flat. The burn wasn’t done by a IHC, they knew better. There was a video with audio but it was swiped by the state goons days after it was sent out. YES this is something a good friend couldn’t hold onto anymore but he now has grown quiet aka Attorney quiet. Firing to save homes without comma kills people or at least can, and did. It’s easy to blame the weather but the weather wasn’t all of it. It’s not Hillbilly to be in contact with adjoining resources at all times, now, is it. Two other dear friends and one of you gave me the courage to talk. Now for my bro that was there, I pray he will someday. The was no lul in coms, believe that. I’ll post more tomorrow. I feel like I’m home now, sorry it took so long ALL. RTS DND is ok
Type 1 ENG crew I meant, terrible auto correct
Downhillndirect,
That description of the Fed type 3 engines burning out on the YouTube video matches my exact recollection! That’s exactly what I saw in those videos. Torches walking and fed type 3s bumping along a recently graded firebreak.
Downhillndirect,
I’m worried about your friend that “can’t hold onto it any longer” that now has a lawyer? That kind of thing can lead to long-term negative health effects. There must be a way to get them help.
I feel your pain Downhillndirect and all those involved, especially for the children that lost their Dads. Even though I am not a fire fighter, it was always hard to pass the little memorial we had put up for them without breaking up. I know what the loss of a son is and I have only come to be able to live with the pain yet it always is in my mind. Your honesty is much appreciated.
I will talk to all of you about this. Please know This has a weight on my heart for a long long time. Tomorrow in the morning I will gather my thoughts and talk to all of you because you deserve it we deserve it and so do the man that passed their families the world.
Reply to Downhillndirect post on July 3, 2019 at 7:19 pm
>> Downhillndirect said…
>>
>> I am here to answer any questions about my friend Jesse
>> and what I know to be fact on 6/30/13.
First ( and foremost )… I am so very sorry for your personal loss.
It was a terrible, heart-breaking day.
>> Downhillndirect also said…
>>
>> An ordered firing assignment/backfire occurred in the
>> Sesame/shrine Corredor‘s right up until the fatalities occurred.
Just to be clear… the ‘working definition’ we have been using here for discussions about this ‘Sesame/shrine Cooridor’ have usually just been a reference to that two track road that ‘connected’ the Sesame area to the Shrine Youth Camp area. The same road that was ‘pushed’ and ‘improved’ ( upon orders originating from SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) by the Yavapai County dozer and its operator, Paul Morin.
This is also the same two-track that the Blue Ridge Hotshots started to ‘improve’ in the late afternoon… but all of their testimony said they hardly got any work done there before they, themselves, were forced to RTO and evacuate back to their buggies parked at the Shrine Youth Camp itself. At no time did any testimony from the Blue Ridge Hotshots indicate that THEY, themselves, made any attempt to ‘ignite’ anything along that two-track. All of their testimony and ‘Unit Logs’ said that, in the end, there simply wasn’t TIME for them to do anything like that.
Does the location described above match your own reference to the ‘Sesame/Shrine Corridor’… or does your understanding of what that refers to differ?
>> Downhillndirect also said…
>>
>> I spoke with the gentleman that explained in great detail of what
>> they did what they were asked to do and I could tell it affected
>> them in a very deep way .
My other ‘first’ questions just match what ‘Woodsman’ has already asked, and, of course, anything you can tell us about “What they were asked to do” and “What they did”.
You know… the basics.
1. WHAT they were asked to do.
2. WHEN they were asked to do it.
3. WHERE ( exactly ) they did something.
4. WHEN they started doing it.
Etc…
Thanks in advance.
WTKTT SAID:
Just to be clear… the ‘working definition’ we have been using here for discussions about this ‘Sesame/shrine Cooridor’ have usually just been a reference to that two track road that ‘connected’ the Sesame area to the Shrine Youth Camp area. The same road that was ‘pushed’ and ‘improved’ ( upon orders originating from SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) by the Yavapai County dozer and its operator, Paul Morin.
MY REPLY:
I do not agree with the WE HAVE BEEN USING HERE part- I have always been using “Sesame to Shrine Corridor(s) and Spur roads- that lead from Helms/BSR/Pumpkin area to drainage areas to Old Grader to Monica Mine/Peeples Valley to areas that go past the Youth Camp when I mean MY definition that clearly shows it as not one specific area(s)…Mine is a very sporadic area and I am firm on that I do not define for there is two Sesame to Shrine corridors- one that the Dozer did and one that was further behind that- Just so you know Downhilldirect
I stand corrected, then.
Reply to Harold post on July 2, 2019 at 1:51 pm
>> Harold asked…
>>
>> I know there was some close calls, as recent as 2012,
>> but had there ever been a previous deployment by GMHS?
Not that we know of.
However… if you had asked just a few weeks ago… “Were there ever any near-fatality incidents involving Granite Mountain?”… the answer would have been the same.
But, then, in one of the recently released PODCASTS by Deborah Pfingston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood… they had a ‘special guest’ sitting with them. None other then former GM Hostshot ( and now Prescott structural FF, just like Doug Harwood ) Pat McCarty. McCarty was also the ‘hired consultant’ for the movie who ran the Hotshot boot camp for Josh Brolin, Miles Teller and all the other ‘actors’.
Pat McCarty “spoke into the microphone” and told a detailed story about how HE almost lost his life for working for GM. It was on a fire somewhere in Montana circa 2010. He was cutting snags the top of one fell right on him. He had to be air-lifted by helicopter to a a hospital in Missoula where he needed and extended stay ( more than overnight ) to recover from his injuries.
He also detailed how, apparently, a standard ‘Accident’ investigation had started up and ‘investigators’ came to his hospital room to begin the interview process. Eric Marsh had driven all night to arrive at the hospital and was there in the room with McCarty and the ‘investigator’.
To make a long story short… McCarty got ‘prickly’ about the questions the investigator was asking him and then basically became an ‘uncooperative witness’ and the hospital room interview was cut short.
NOTE: PODCAST co-author Doug Harwood was sitting right there with McCarty in front of the same microphone and is also heard in the recording VERIFYING everything McCarty was saying… because Doug Harwood was THERE that day, working with Granite Mountain when it happened.
And then ( lo and behold )… NO REPORT was ever issued about McCarty’s near-fatal accident.
Absolutely NOTHING. Zero. Zip. Nada.
Someone made this near-fatality incident involving a Granite Mountain crew member just “go away”.
So the REAL answer to your question “had there ever been a previous deployment by GMHS?” needs to be…
Maybe.
The Pat McCarty story could indicate that the people who had an interest in seeing the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshot’ project succeed were making SURE no ‘bad news’ ever surfaced… or at least never made it back to the Prescott City Council.
This is a trailer for a new documentary “based on a true story” about the December 20-21, 1977 Honda Canyon in California.
The men involved speak of coverups and intimidation … imagine that
Posted from Wildfire Today
“A documentary is being produced for a multi-fatality wildfire that occurred in the 1970s.
“On December 20, 1977, three people were entrapped and killed on the Honda Canyon fire on Vandenberg Air Force Base in southern California, including the Base Commander Colonel Joseph Turner, Fire Chief Billy Bell, and Assistant Fire Chief Eugene Cooper. Heavy Equipment Operator Clarence McCauley suffered severe burns and later died from the complications. A book about the fire, “Beyond Tranquillon Ridge”, was written by Joseph N. Valencia.”
( https://vimeo.com/342842133 )
WOW, I ever even heard of that fire. Thanks
In my opinion, Hotshots don’t sleep or associate with other resources, even when spiking out. They are a self-contained resource that rarely needs any assistance from other resources so they stick to them selves. Plus, the watered green pasture had lots of cow pies so maybe they didn’t like the smell.
Was supposed to be a response to Woodsman from down below.
Thank you, Methods.
Did Marsh work as a DIV on the same division as GM? Was your engine assigned to the same division?
How did you hear about the fire creeping into GMs sleeping area? That’s really interesting. Appreciate it.
Yes, Marsh worked on the same division as GM. I was an ENGB assigned to the same DIV and was working with them during the first 3-4 days before an IMT showed up.
We slept on the other side of the creek from them and heard them wake up that night.
Thank you, Methods. I appreciate your contributions!
Methods,
I just watched your video again. Badass! Good job with it, especially saving the buggies! You da man! (and your crew)
Reply to Methods post on July 2, 2019 at 2:40 pm
>> Methods said…
>>
>> In my opinion, Hotshots don’t sleep or associate with other
>> resources, even when spiking out. They are a self-contained
>> resource that rarely needs any assistance from other resources
>> so they stick to them selves. Plus, the watered green pasture
>> had lots of cow pies so maybe they didn’t like the smell.
Thank you for posting!
One of the things we’ve been scratching out heads about here for some time now is that there appears to have been a THIRD ‘incident’ involving Granite Mountain on that same 2012 Holloway fire.
Just before the start of their 2013 season ( which would become their last season ), one of GM’s Squad Bosses suddenly took another job and GM had to quickly fill that position.
FOUR current GM came under consideration for that open ‘Squad Boss’ position and then went through a standard City of Prescott Human Resources ‘job interview’ process.
All the documents associated with those interviews are still sitting online a the following PUBLIC link…
https://web.archive.org/web/20151031112325/http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/GMHS1.pdf
In those ‘job interviews’… ALL FOUR of the GM crew members talked about an ‘incident’ on the same 2012 Holloway Fire that involved suddenly having to RUN, and traverse drainages, and then ARRIVE at a Safety Zone and THEN still needing to ‘burn it out’, apparently to protect themselves AND their vehicles.
ALL of the candidates told the job interviewers that the fact that they were able to “keep their heads” during this Holloway Fire incident should count towards them being considered for the open ‘Squad Boss’ position.
Does that ‘ring any bells’ with you?
The ‘incident’ at the 2012 Holloway fire that ALL of the GM Squad Boss candidates were mentioning does NOT sound like the same ‘incident’ were they simply ‘woke up’ and had to burn out around themselves.
So we’ve been wondering if there were actually THREE ( separate ) ‘incidents’ involving Granite Mountain at this one single 2012 Holloway Fire.
Anything you might be able to remember might help clear this up.
Thanks in advance.
IMO, it sounds similar to the event that I caught on the video. Multiple members were running down the slope to get to their buggies; fire crossed drainages; I believe the crew members that made it down to the buggies ended up firing off around them. They may have assumed that they parked in a safety zone but it was literally in the green in a “V” drainage. Just my guess, but I can definitely account for two “bad decisions, with good outcomes” just on the 2012 Holloway Fire in Nevada.
Reply to Methods post on July 3, 2019 at 12:00 pm
>> Methods said…
>>
>> IMO, it sounds similar to the event that I caught on the video.
>> Multiple members were running down the slope to get to
>> their buggies; fire crossed drainages; I believe the crew
>> members that made it down to the buggies ended up
>> firing off around them.
Thank you, Methods.
Yes. I agree.
Looking at your video again at the following link…
http://vimeo.com/48411010
…there are a number of similarities between what you filmed and the ‘story’ that all 4 of the GM Squad Boss candidates were saying in their 2013 job interviews.
They all described it more like an event that involved the ENTIRE crew having to ‘make it to safety’ and then ‘burn out the Safety Zone’… but there’s no doubt that other details match what YOU filmed.
Regarding your statement…
“Multiple members were running down the slope to get to their buggies;”
Again… yes. At least one ( the first? ) GM crew member to come ‘running down’ is clearly seen in YOUR video, on the left side of the frame, hauling ass down that ‘path’ and towards your location while you saved their vehicles.
Based on how fast he was running… it looks like he would have reached your position right about the time you stopped filming.
Do you, by chance, remember WHO that ‘first’ GM crew member you filmed running towards you was?
Did he SAY anything when he reached your position?
You know… like “Thank you”… or anything else?
>> Methods also said…
>>
>> They may have assumed that they parked in a safety zone but
>> it was literally in the green in a “V” drainage. Just my guess,
>> but I can definitely account for two “bad decisions, with good
>> outcomes” just on the 2012 Holloway Fire in Nevada.
Regarding at least one of the ‘bad decision with a good outcome’ on GM’s part that you FILMED… I’m just curious about the circumstances there.
Was that basically a fireline that ‘backed into’ that location ( since the wind was blowing AWAY from your position as you filmed )… or was it a ‘spot fire’ from something else that had been happening off-camera, out to the left?
I’m trying to figure out how the hell that fire could have gotten that close to those $150,000 ( each ) vehicles without GM even frickin’ NOTICING.
Bill says
JUNE 29, 2019 AT 6:44 PM
Thanks woodsman, don’t know why it took so long for me to chime in. Maybe because Gary scares the hell out of me lol 🤣
Bill, I really thought this is a funny comment because as I have said numerous times, I that I just get in character to post here as part of my shtick because otherwise conventional filters would prevent me from saying much at all.
And I did think it was really funny to read what several people wrote about me because it was like reading my obituary while still being alive. And I would really hate the fact if it is true that someone is hesitant to post here because they think I’m a butthead. So…after five years, I KNOW you have some things to contribute.
And RTS is right, I subconsciously use a lot of different techniques to communicate with people. It all came with my job during my Second Act and it’s a hard habit to break, but I don’t mean to be manipulative, just because I try to manipulate people when communicating with them. 😇
Gary,
I have been reading for 5 years and that is why I made that comment. I knew you would get a kick out of it. The other comments were just icing. lol
Anyway here is my take on this. Instead of digging a hole and trying to bury this fucking disaster there should have been a trial, post mortem. This was manslaughter, voluntary or involuntary. 18 innocent people died.
I am surprised that some of the family’s did not get together and do a civil suit to try and get to the bottom of what happened. If this ever went to trial the truth would have a lot sooner.
Bill,
I like the cut of your jib.
The families DID try to force an investigation and obtain the true lessons learned for future firefighters. It was actually court ordered. But, they were strong-armed and manipulated through the entire process. The effected local, state, and federal agencies CHOSE to protect their interests instead of doing what’s right. This was elected primarily to shield them from the massive civil and/or criminal liability — $$.
This has been going on since at least Mann Gulch. Then win we lose. Technology and communications have throw a wrench in their plan, however. Onward we go.
Of course, I’m simply stating the obvious at this point.
“They win. We lose.”
Clarification. Civil suit against Marsh.
Well, a civil suit against Marsh’ estate (since he is deceased) is possible but there are many constraints and hoops to jump through with that. It would be time critical and it’s too late now (I believe.) It would have served very well to force discovery and under oath testimony from all of these yahoos. Too bad that ship has sailed…I guess…since I’m not an attorney…since I don’t have a BAR license…since I wouldn’t ever give any legal advice in any way because I’m not qualified or licensed.
You’re correct, Bill. That would have been a good way to go to get the whole truth.
It would sure as hell have got Dipshit, I mean Doughnut. to the stand to testify. That would be game over.
I starting to like you, Bill. And that’s saying something. Stick around.
Thanks Woodsman,that means a lot.
And I should not have called him a dipshit.
I should have stuck with the IM designation of sad sack.
Damn it doughnuts speak up.
Thanks Bill, me too, a lot of the things the families have done and have not done have really bothered me. I have really tried hard to have understanding and compassion, but they really had the opportunity to make a huge difference in WLF safety and they squandered it.
And now…we have to wait for the next national level catastrophic WLF disaster to have another opportunity on that level. It takes a lot to get the attention of the American people. And they had the attention of the American people for awhile.
Gary,
The families effectively squandered the opportunity but they had all the help in the world to give up the plight. Coercion, manipulation, empty promises, etc, etc, etc
Yes you got that right. And they had no idea who to turn to for help. The ONE (1) thing I would have liked them to ask for, was to universally, unequivocally, unambiguously and unanimously demand that all future wild land firefighter tragedies be professionally investigated using the NTSB as the model.
There wasn’t ever a chance of getting the professional liars who created the YHFD Big Lie to admit what they had done was wrong. But something tells me they have the message now…5 x5…thanks to this blog.
Woodsman,
Having been directly involved with the 2008 Iron Complex and the Carson Helicopter crash fatality (Iron 44), I would highly recommend AGAINST the NTSB doing to “professionally investigate” anything.
The H-44 fatality SAIT-SAIR was a blatant lie, cover-up, and whitewash. The NTSB removed literally hundreds of records from their official website on the incident.
This was based on one of the two faulty Fuel Control Units (FCU) and ultimately the General Electric company because they knew the engines were faulty and never informed their customers as revealed in the Wildfire Today article below.
( https://wildfiretoday.com/2010/06/05/families-of-iron-44-helicopter-crash-victims-reportedly-settle-suits/ )
Whoops, meant the NTSB post for you Gary and not Woodsman
Well…there goes that idea then. I just had a high opinion of the NTSB from the news media exposure they get as the result of their work on common carrier accidents. Bummer.
RTS
That was Ye Olde Magnificent Bastards suggestion but duly noted.
Sidebar: I ran into a firefighter a few years ago and we got to talking about different tragedy fires the Iron complex came up. After your info coming to light and me bringing up the fuel modules, coverups, etc, the guy totally lost his shit. Turns out he was helislacker back then and his position was 100% official report toeing the company line. The angry response was palpable and I marvelled at the complete success of the brainwashing in this person. Told them to look into it deeper and start thinking for themself. Good times. Dude was a real fuck up anyway.
Wow, not at all surprising on the Helislacker. Good one shaking up his world
Get your mailing address to me somehow and I’ll send you the missing NTSB records – HUNDREDS of them gone from public view!
Yeah, it’s interesting psychology at play when you witness someone trembling in fear at the mere suggestion that the official reports might not only be wrong but they might be purposefully misleading. It’s really very interesting to see the reaction. Like their world is crumbling around them and fear sets in. Anger and lashing out is a common response.
I should have been a psychologist or an attorney or a forensic accountant or a motorcycle mechanic or one of those guys that rents jetskis in the Caribbean or…
Woodsman says
July 2, 2019 at 8:04 pm
Reply to Woodsman post on
July 2, 2019 at 8:04 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Yeah, it’s interesting psychology
>> at play when you witness
>> someone trembling in fear at
>> the mere suggestion that the
>> official reports might not only be
>> wrong but they might be
>> purposefully misleading.
>>
>> It’s really very interesting to see
>> the reaction. Like their world is
>> crumbling around them and fear
>> sets in.
>>
>> Anger and lashing out is a
>> common response.
Yarnell SAIT Lead Investigator Brad Mayhew’s recent ( public ) behavior comes to mind.
As Shakespeare said ( about guilty people’s responses to things )…
“Methinks he doth protest TOO much”
Being a Woodsman is sounds right.
At least the Carson Helicopter CEO finally got 10-12 years in prison for negligent homicide, so that was a good thing…right?
One more thing, and this goes back to RTS’s question for me about what made me suspicious of the SAIR.
Suspicion #3:
Page 2, paragraph 2, bullet 1 of the SAIR: ‘The Granite Mountain IHC was a fully qualified, staffed, and TRAINED hotshot crew…’ (emphasis added by me)
then,
Page 105 of the SAIR, under the heading ‘TRAINING EVALUATION ‘ the report states: ‘Reviewers could not confirm whether all crewmembers completed the course titled “IS-700 – National Incident Management System (NIMS): An Introduction….’
It seemed suspicious to me that they could not confirm this. It was the only place I found in the entire report where it seemed they found a problem, and yet they didn’t see it through. I would think they should have been able to follow a paper trail to confirm this.
Unless, I’m missing something… I admit, I did find this section very confusing.
To be missing the IS-700 and noted in the SAIT-SAIR is mouse nuts, in other words it’s inconsequential. It was a pretext to telling the truth about them not being certified because they had not met the required three HS Supts being more or less embedded so as to shadow them on assignments and go through the hoops in the IHOG (called something else nowadays).
This was addressed here and posted by WTKTT on the issue of Darrel Willis commenting to the SAIT about three HS Supts but only recollecting one, Jeff Andrews.
There was only one and there is / was no documents proving they were certified.
And…the didn’t have the minimum full time employees…and…they didn’t meet the standard for minimum years of service for members of the crew…and…what RTS just said…and…what WTKTT has said. If it all turns out to be true, that’s bad. Real bad. Fraud kind of bad.
If you’re up for it, I’ll throw another idea at you. Again it’s free, so take it for what’s it’s worth.
Charlie mentioned how they used to carry glass vials of Ammonium, which they’d break under their noses to mitigate the effects of dynamite headaches.
With that in mind, I was thinking about the WFFs that attempted to knock themselves out during a burn-over event (like possibly Clayton Whitted).
So I was thinking, what if we got the chemical companies, we love to hate so much, to develop glass vials for firefighters, that would contain an anesthetic drug that would induce a coma.
Then when they deploy, or get into any situation of the sort, they could break the vials and render themselves unconscious, so they at least wouldn’t have to feel the pain.
I recognize this is a very dangerous proposal, however, I’m sure better minds than mine could take it from here and work out the details.
On another note, could someone tell me how to quickly way to get to the top/bottom of the page. Preferably a keyboard shortcut. I have a hard time using a trackpad and the little scroll bar on the side is too difficult for me to use.
Thanks for listening.
Say what? Maybe reading too much fiction and watching too many movies?
How about following the basic, tried-and-trued Ten Standard Fire Orders and LCES while recognizing and heeding and mitigating the Watch Out Situations that the GMHS should have been doing all along and they, like every other WF and FF on the YH Fire on June 30, 2013.
And the GMHS, like every other WF and FF, would have been fine and alive. And that is NOT the odious “hindsight bias” that “they” like to throw out there.
I think that you are going way down a rabbit hole on your explosives thing.
Agreed Robert, I will reel it in…
Following the tried and true rules would have meant we wouldn’t be here discussing this right now. I know you are absolutely correct about that. I will get back to basics.
I was thinking of a ‘last ditch effort’ option to give them in a hopeless situation, rather than to trying to knock themselves out on a rock..
This is the tail wagging the dog.
Reactive vs. Proactive prevention.
The key is not to be hiking down into a bowl (box canyon) full of explosive fuel at the height of the burn cycle with no one keeping an eye on the fire while you do it. Especially to “risk a lot to save a lot” as a built-in bias for action based on the inherent flawed culture difference between city fire departments and land management agencies.
Or, cutting a hazard tree (snag) that you are clearly not qualified to cut because hotshot hubris inhibits admitting you can’t or shouldn’t.
I’m absolutely against the use of fire shelters in any form. There cannot be a model manufactured that can save you from doing dumb shit in dumb places at dumb times. That’s simply the fact. We not only do not need any of these suggested “last resorts,” inventing and fielding them will continue the mindset of excessive risk taking against all logic and reason.
Having “one foot in the black” and by doing this, your safety zone is steps away at all times, never killed anybody.
The whole idea of survival shelters is dangerous. That’s why you end up with a city fire department sponsored crew, that started as a fuels crew; morphed into a type 2IA; and culminated with IHC certification which I seriously doubt ever happened “by the book.” You end up with a crew of people that believe in the effectiveness of fire survival devices that can bridge the gap between solid fireground tactics and doing stupid excessively risky things. This deadly mindset was “baked in the cake” and it killed good people!
I’m in complete agreement with you on the fire shelters. Get rid of them. Keep the fire curtains for dozers though.
In the fire shelter training video, the narrator makes the comment that fire shelters are responsible for saving hundreds of lives and preventing hundreds of injuries since they came out.
This is a more or less true statement. The more important issue is that the basic WF Rules (e.g. 10 & 18, LCES, Downhill Checklist, and Common Denominators, etc.) are responsible for saving TENS OF THOUSANDS OF WF’s and FF’s EVERY SINGLE YEAR!
Like Jerry Williams pointed out in: Williams, J. (2002) FMT, 62, pp. 31-35. Jerry Williams was the Director of Fire and Aviation Management, USDA Forest Service, Washington Office, Washington, DC. and what follows is based on remarks made by the him at the National Fire and Aviation Management Meeting from February 25 to March 1, 2002, in Scottsdale, AZ.
( https://www.fs.fed.us/sites/default/files/fire-management-today/62-4.pdf )
“Firm Rules of Engagement
“The Ten Standard Firefighting Orders must be firm rules of engagement. They cannot be simple guidelines, and they cannot be “bargained.” They are the result of hard-learned lessons. Compromising one or more of them is a common denominator of all tragedy fires. On the Dude, South Canyon, and Thirtymile Fires, the Fire Orders were ignored, overlooked, or otherwise compromised.
“The Fire Orders mean little after we are in trouble. That is why we must routinely observe them and rely on them before we get into trouble. We know that no fire shelter can ensure survival all of the time under all circumstances. Entrapment avoidance must be our primary emphasis and our measure of professional operational success.
“Conditions on the fireline can rapidly change. In the pressure of the moment, it is easy for people to overlook something important. That is why we must encourage our firefighters to speak up when they notice safety being compromised. As Weick and Sutcliffe point out, “people who refuse to speak up out of fear enact a system that knows less than it must to remain effective.” We must promote a working environment where even our greenest firefighters feel free to speak up.
“Following an accident, a “standdown” should be an accepted practice for those involved, until the facts can be sorted out. However, it is a shame that our focus on accountability too often occurs after an accident. Culturally, we must shift the weight of accountability to the time before an accident takes shape. We must embrace the rules of engagement as a way of doing business—as a professional standard. Violation of any Fire Order must prompt management or supervisory intervention and, unless rapidly corrected, be unarguable grounds for release from the fireline, release from the incident, or—if egregious—serious personnel action.
“However, we must not adhere to the Fire Orders for fear of punishment. We must embrace the Fire Orders because we owe it to one another. In that sense, the Fire Orders must become a shared obligation, where the leader’s situational awareness depends on participation by the entire crew and where the crew’s participation is tempered with respect for the leader’s responsibility. Borrowing from the aviation community’s model of Cockpit/ Crew Resource Management, we must focus fireline operations more on what is right than on who is right.”
And I am in complete agreement with both of you. Gee…I’m starting to feel all warm and fuzzy inside and suddenly I want to sing;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tlGyu7l3KcU
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479702
And the only reason I am even mentioning the “C” word much less looking for a compromise, is because I believe “institutional bias’ is so strong in support of fire shelters at this point, that they will be with us…maybe forever?
Great idea Harold–and if you get a boss like Marsh make it a cyanide pill–this way if you see he has you in a death trap you can take the cyanide–it will do you in in 5 or 6 minutes–preferable to burning to death and quicker.
Well you will get cyanide gases if they dump retardant on a a burning fire. Those will be in ppm and much beyond the 6ppm that brings on cancer –but that takes some years.
You get plenty ammonium gas inhaled–so the wild land fire fighter ought not suffer head aches–that ammonium only destroys lung tissue–I think–you really never know what other health maladies these chemicals tack on to you as you progress toward retirement or later years. They need to address the chemical equation since it equals bad health in retirement years. Every fireman doing a year or more ought to receive free medical–if they fuck your health up then they should pay and those taxes ought to be heavy on chemical companies and retardant dispersers.
We need a president and congress people who listen and can not be bought by the companies. There are a few–this president won’t listen to anything but his own voice. The chemical situation is as real as the radiation was to those subjected to the bomb fall out or the dumb-ass uranium miner that believed he would never be harmed. It is a given–the chemicals and radiation fuck with the genes and cell structures. Carbon in the lungs holds on to radiation and certainly other chemicals. That is why radon is so disastrous, especially to smokers, coal miners and I know you can add fire fighters to the list as well.
Charlie, I’m working on an idea, and I wondered if you would tell me what the sub-soil conditions are at the deployment site, or anywhere on the floor of the canyons. Is it rocky underneath? Say down to about 2-3 feet. Thanks.
Harold –That soil would be decomposed granite–so coarse sand mixed with rock right on their site and the arroyo next to where they deployed mostly sand.
I would not know the depth of the soil before hitting bed rock but you can bet it would be something like 10′ or perhaps more.
https://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/
If you are leading toward low soil moistures and how they impact fire behavior, consider this paper by USFS researchers Fast and Heilman found that low soil moisture “not only influenced the surface, but the entire lower atmosphere.” (1996)
Fast, J. D., and W. E. Heilman, 1996: The effect of regional-scale soil-moisture deficits on the mesoscale dynamics that influence fire severity. Symposium on Fire and Forest Meteorology, 28 January – 2 February 1996, Atlanta, GA. American Meteorological Society, Boston, MA. 280-283
GTS for this research paper – 7.2 WEATHER AND FIRE BEHAVIOR INFLUENCING THE 11-12 JUNE 2013 BLACK FOREST COLORADO (USA) WILDFIRE
That link doesn’t have anything to with soil moisture. It a nationwide soil survey tool that should give Harold all the info he wanted to know.
Thank you all. Though, I’m afraid I’m likely going to disappoint you with my train of thought.
I wondered if you could tell me, based on actual deployment events records, if there’s an AVERAGE time that has been accepted, between the time when a deployment has been deemed necessary, to the point of full deployment. (For example GMIHC had approximately 2 minutes, from what we know).
I’m not sure if this is going anywhere, I’m just having one of my crazy ideas. I get a lot of them.
Are you wondering if they might have had enough time to DIG DOWN, and basically BURY themselves?
Yes, but I was going to think it through a bit more, first… Now you’ve forced my hand.
So obviously we can never do anything for the GMHS, and at 2,ooo degrees they never had a chance, but I was thinking of future deployment scenarios.
First let me explain how I got here, and this is going to get a little crazy.
I was chatting with Joy last week and she mentioned ice artistry, using chainsaws, and I thought about how the Inuits (Eskimos – before the days of political correctness) use chainsaws to cut blocks of ice out of the frozen Arctic Ocean.
Then, the other day I was trimming my lawn with a weedeater and I turned it sideways and forced it into the ground and I quickly got a nice little deep trench in the ground.
So I got to thinking (and I don’t know much about chainsaws so this is where I think it will fall apart) what if you held a chainsaw at about 30 degrees or so, and pushed it into the ground with a sweeping action as you moved backward. Theoretically, you should end up with a shallow trench, and with 5 saws running each sawyer makes 4 trenches, enough for (20) everybody. Add MORE saws and each sawyer has to make less trenches.
Then they could step in and deploy their bags inside the trench, and IF there was still time, use the half life principle starting with half the crew covering the first half with dirt, then half again deploying and being covered by the other half, and so on until there was only one man left, who would deploy in a trench located in the most favourable position, since he/she isn’t being buried with dirt.
Now, I realize this sounds crazy and naive, and it likely won’t work, and things like rocks and roots would be an issue, as well as the most obvious obstacle – TIME!!! – plus a multitude of things my foggy brain isn’t thinking about right now, but I was hoping to test this myself before I said anything. Unfortunately I don’t have a chainsaw.
But now the cat’s out of the bag, so maybe if anyone has an old saw they don’t care about, they could try this?
I was thinking that IF this method worked, but there wasn’t a lot of time/warning, then they might be able to at least quickly do head-sized holes and then they could at least bury their heads like ostriches, when they deploy their bags.
This would take a lot of practice to perfect.
I wasn’t sure if this has already been attempted, with the tools hotshots use to cut lines? See… I don’t even know what they’re called, that’s how little I know.
Well, there it is… my 3:24am sleep deprived idea, so go easy on me! I warned you it was going to get crazy, but this is how my brain works…now you know.
My ideas are free, so take it for what it’s worth.
There is nothing crazy about considering all the alternatives that a desperate situation might require.
There HAVE been some deployments where the reason people survived was because they were able to deploy in a ‘ditch’, either natural or ( in a few cases ) a dozer was able to DIG DOWN into the safety zone before the fire hit.
Anything you can do to reduce FLAME CONTACT with your fire shelter is going to increase survival.
But in GM’s case… I think you already nailed the answer to your idea.
It’s all about the ‘T’ word. ( TIME ).
Granite Mountain didn’t even have time to clear all the surface vegetation from their chosen deployment site. They ended up having to actually deploy their shelters AROUND some unburned vegetation in the middle of the deployment site itself… which is why they ended up in the peculiar ‘U’ shape as diagrammed in the SAIR itself.
However… s;peaking of ‘other options’… here is a link to the entrapment in 1994, where 3 Arizona firefighters DID survive a similar burnover by deploying in a BOULDER FIELD almost identical to the ones that were right there on either side of the Yarnell box canyon…
Mackenzie Fire Entrapment ( 1994 )
Incident Date: 6/1/1994
State: Arizona
Date: 06/01/1994
Incident Type: Entrapment
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=6f0a001f-741d-4ffc-94d9-082aeae124c5
Clarification,
I said everyone lost “situational awareness” when the sawyers dropped a big tree on me on the Indian Fire of 1975, while we were cutting direct zigzag hotline up a steep slope at night with some very active fire.
But…that didn’t include me, since I was a first year crew member and I didn’t have the slightest idea what I was doing. I was so unimpressive to my brand new hotshot crew managers as the accidental hotshot, they had assigned me to the literally the least important position on the entire crew as the second-the-last-shovel on Squad II.
The Last Shovel is an important position because by working closely with the First Pulaski on the squad, they control the tempo of the entire squad by yelling one of two commands, “take more” or “take less.”
So anyway, that was why I had the tree dropped on me. I was almost the last person of a 20 person crew line that snaked up the steep slope in the darkness. And as such, I was way back down the mountain and out of sight and mind of just about everybody just poking along either taking more, or taking less depending on what the guy behind me yelled to the guy at the front of our squad.
There I was, just minding my own business when a really big tree came sailing down the mountain in the dark, caught me up in its branches as it flew by and took me a little ways down the mountain with it.
But…once the sawyers ran back down the line and cut enough branches away, they found me under them wondering what the hell had just happened?
But…other than some scapes and bruises and a big dent in my hard hat from a branch, I was fine and everyone treated it like it was just another day at the office and nothing particularly memorable or eventful had just happened and we all went back to work cutting the line.
Here is what that fire looked like that night cutting that hotline from a photo I took. It’s kinda looks like we just lost a couple of guys, but it’s just the angle of the camera.
http://ourfiregods.com/IndianFireLPNF.html
Anyway…speaking of crazy ideas, I am working on a Mother Of Posts (MOP) I I hope I finish and like enough to post because you have given me the courage to pitch my own crazy idea.
And so you can say you read it here first, I think the future of WLF safety is not with a better fire shelter, but rests with fire suits, kinda like rain pants and a hooded rain jacket.
Just FYI. 😎
Oh…and one more thing. I think if you study the photo, you can really get an idea of just how confusing, chaotic, and disorienting it can be cutting fire line, especially at night or in low light or smoky conditions.
Just add a full hotshot crew to this scene with saws screaming, tools clanging, men yelling and a fire roaring and I think you can get a feel for his crazy it can be and how easy it would be to lose situational awareness even for a few seconds.
I have done some research on my “proximity suit” so I know it’s not a new idea, and in fact it’s a very old idea. So I would imagine MEDC has looked at the idea before and they must have already rejected it, but still?
Although don’t get me wrong, my first choice would be to feed all of the fire shelters to the wood chippers as the Woodsman has written in the past, replace them with nothing and do like Fred has said.
Just don’t go there, which is very possible to do because the FIRE CAN’T THINK or plan ahead and it must follow all of the rules of nature, all,of the time. We get to do whatever we want to…generally speaking.
I’m just trying to thread the needle and find a compromise since I have given up on my “How Big Is Big Enough Because Size Does Matter” campaign as being ultimately unworkable.
Which might be why THEY ignored the original research themselves. I just needed Tye Woodsman to do the math for me and s few years for it to sink in.
1. The area needed is too big.
2. The math is too complicated.
3. There are too many variables.
My crazy idea also sprang from the info that they would have needed over 16 acres cleared to survive, an impossible feat, in 2 minutes.
So my hypothetical idea of burrowing down was IN LIEU OF trying to clear out around them, since it wasn’t going to do any good, anyway.
They could have used the full two minutes to dig as deep as they could, instead. But two minutes must have seemed like two seconds to them. They followed their training on this point, as they should.
It’s a moot point as far this tragedy is concerned, since it was unsurvivable and generally agreed the boulders were their best chance.
And, also, we are being ‘wise after the event’.
I was thinking more of future scenarios.
I need to get some sleep.
This is the tail wagging the dog.
Reactive vs. Proactive prevention.
The key is not to be hiking down into a bowl (box canyon) full of explosive fuel at the height of the burn cycle with no one keeping an eye on the fire while you do it. Especially to “risk a lot to save a lot” as a built-in bias for action based on the inherent flawed culture difference between city fire departments and land management agencies.
Or, cutting a hazard tree (snag) that you are clearly not qualified to cut because hotshot hubris inhibits admitting you can’t or shouldn’t.
I’m absolutely against the use of fire shelters in any form. There cannot be a model manufactured that can save you from doing dumb shit in dumb places at dumb times. That’s simply the fact. We not only do not need any of these suggested “last resorts,” inventing and fielding them will continue the mindset of excessive risk taking against all logic and reason.
Having “one foot in the black” and by doing this, your safety zone is steps away at all times, never killed anybody.
The whole idea of survival shelters is dangerous. That’s why you end up with a city fire department sponsored crew, that started as a fuels crew; morphed into a type 2IA; and culminated with IHC certification which I seriously doubt ever happened “by the book.” You end up with a crew of people that believe in the effectiveness of fire survival devices that can bridge the gap between solid fireground tactics and doing stupid excessively risky things. This deadly mindset was “baked in the cake” and it killed good people!
Crew7 was in a spot with 100+ acres of “black,” a safety zone. The question is: what was the entire circumstances surrounding their decision to move from it?
“Entire circumstances” is a big one that has many factors.
After all that, I just thought I should tell you all:
I do not drink (19+ years sober)
I don’t smoke, (28 years)
I don’t take ANY illicit drugs of ANY kind, including the now legal marijuana.
I don’t even take prescription meds, (I can’t even remember the last time I had a prescription drug.)
My only vice is caffeine, marathon insomnia, the occasional Tylenol, and too much red meat and, as RTS pointed out, too much television and movies.
Thanks for lending me your ears. I did not mean to insult your profession. Cheers!
Harold,
If that was directed at me, I apologize if I gave you the impression that I was insulted in any way. This entire topic is a tough one for a lot of people, me included. Please don’t take anything personally. I appreciate your contributions and I hope others come here with questions or information to add as well.
And this is getting down into the weeds about your legal question but…
The easiest way to think of US Law, is that there isn’t much US Law. And that is because of how the US came into existence and the issues our Founding Fathers had with King George. All of our Founding Fathers would hate everything about President Aberration because they hated everything about a monarchy.
The United States isn’t really the United States beyond national defence and foreign policy, or at least that is more or less how our founding fathers wanted it.
Other than that, we aren’t the United States as much as we are 50 independent countries, who all control their own destinies, except for their common national defence and foreign policies.
So…that means you have to look at the individual laws of 50 different countries to answer your question. Which is what makes it complicated in addition to the fact that all legal questions are answered by two words all of the time for every question…”it depends.”
I don’t drink or smoke either Harold–except when I am by myself or with somebody. That is not very often these days–but I agree with your plan of action–do what is good for you–that is kind of a live and let live situation.
Most of the miners that smoked are either dead or dying of some cancer or COPD–yet I am a non smoker and still have a touch of COPD–the early stages–I don’t know what the late stages would be–I guess being hooked to an oxygen bottle all day. It is strange cause I have good blood oxygen level and poor breathing ability. Likely when Charley shot one lung out and spread all those shot and bone fragments throughout my body, that could not help the breathing situation–but strangely I think I breath better now than before I was shot. I did feel one of the bb’s down in my arm–those things travel and Joy said she counted about 200. Well one thing they won’t subject me to MRI’s any more–they won’t do it if you have metal in your body so I am told.
It is funny–when asked how is your day–I always am happy when I wake up above ground. That kind of shit gives you a good attitude even if you had a bad one.
Yes I think Gary was always right about those blankets and have a feeling it was a factor in that crew not trying the boulders instead of the blankets. I wonder if the blankets don’t just add more misery to dying–but they keep saying some have been saved by them. That is the catch that makes people think they can have some confidence in those things.
Just as WTKTT said there was very little time–I could not see why they did not skirt the boulders knowing the fire was near –that boulder field is long on the south side where they were advancing toward Helms Ranch.
There was a lot of funny stuff going on. Helms you know makes about 10 million in specialty parts for the Government with his company in Phoenix. He has a lot of political clout–and I think maybe some relatives in congress. He was smart enough to get his defensible space cleaned up just two weeks before the fire and that was also about June 16–the date signed and sealed by a honcho in the FS or BLM declaring the area where the GMHS died and next to Helms (covered the death canyon) as restricted and the highest of extreme fire danger. Joy might even remember the name of the signer–she showed me the documents when we were researching the fire some weeks after that we were allowed back in Yarnell. And that document could not be found again–someone took it off the web. We did not know early on if you saw a video or document you should copy it since if it does not follow the story the FS and fire fighter honchos want, it will disappear quickly.
The think they must know concerning the loved ones is that they are in a state of shock and remorse–people that way are easy prey for the shysters. They should have been reimbursed some but allowed a decent time of cooling off before coming to a settlement. You see that now with Phingston–she was confused and confounded early on by the elite bull shitters and they took advantage. I wonder if they sleep well knowing they screwed so many. But also that they screwed over the wild fire community safety–you can bet their actions will kill some future wild land fire fighters–and they must know that fact as well. To the public they upheld their reputations–but what a horrible cost to do so.
Hi Charlie!
I don’t judge people who like to drink, smoke etc., I just can’t do it myself anymore. I used to smoke cigs and cigars constantly, I tried weed when I was a teen, but surprisingly I didn’t care for it and it didn’t stick. Funny thing is, I had long hair and everyone assumed I was a doper, but I wasn’t.
The way my life and this world is right now, I’d love nothing more than to get nice and deep back into the bottom of a bottle. It’s just getting too hard to watch. I just wish I could go back to not giving a sh*t about people.
Fortunately, my current health won’t allow me to ever drink or smoke again, that would be the end of me real quick. It’s ironic that the things I want to make me feel better would end up killing me.
“The darkest rain clouds are potential backdrops for the brightest rainbows. It all depends on coincidence and conditions.” -FISH- (Derek W. Dick)
Thanks for being here Charlie!
Happy Canada Day, everyone!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Day
——————————————————————————————————–
Canada Day ( French: Fête du Canada ) is the national day of Canada. A federal statutory holiday, it celebrates the anniversary of July 1, 1867, the effective date of the Constitution Act, 1867 (then called the British North America Act, 1867), which united the three separate colonies of the Province of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick into a single Dominion within the British Empire called Canada
———————————————————————————————————-
Thanks WTKTT, as you can tell I don’t have a life or I’d be out celebrating. Shame on me! I hope to get out tonight and see some fireworks with my fellow hosers.
I have wondered for a while now about the effect of a burn over on oxygen levels. There’s been talk that if the GMHS crew had gone into the boulders on the slope, they may have had a chance. If they had somehow survived the fire itself, would they not have suffocated anyway from lack of oxygen? Is the 16+ acres they needed to survive just about the direct and radiant heat, or is oxygen consumption a part of that equation?
I have also been thinking about the anti-mortem sub-scalp hemorrhage injuries suffered by Clayton Whitted. There’s been some ideas, and I think Charlie said it was very likely he had a fall, that it was a very treacherous slope, an that’s an excellent observation. It makes perfect sense.
However, I noticed there’s also been talk of possible dissension amongst the crew and that ‘Marsh was on the way out’ and had lost the respect of some of his men. I noticed that scene in the movie where the men were getting restless and Steed had to calm them down, and then MacKenzie SPIT on the ground. That spoke volumes to me, and even though it was just a movie, I thought ‘Wow, I wonder if that really happened?’ It seemed like a message was put in there for someone.
The other scenes that stuck out to me, the first time I watched, it was when Eric was interviewing Wade Parker and Jesse asked him what the word INTEGRITY meant to him and Marsh shut him down before he could answer. I thought that was a reasonable question, and was surprised by that reaction from Eric, although he did proceed to ask him when was the last time he lied, but that’s not the same thing. Then later, Jesse asked Marsh what he was doing with Donut he said something to the effect ”We’re trying to put together a hotshot team here. This guys a doper.”
Again, I wonder if those conversations really happened, because it certainly showed a contrast between the two men, ie.) Jesse was by the book, whereas Eric was ready to play a little fast and lose with the rules. That was not lost on me and, at the time I thought, ‘Oh that Marsh is such a nice guy’
Now, in hindsight, I realize that being a nice guy is fine if you’re a supervisor at Walmart, but not in the world of WFF. I would want Steed, because I know I would stand a better chance of coming home. We all know we wouldn’t be here talking about this now, if Jesse had stood his ground.
Which, finally, brings me to my point (as Gary likes to say): how much loyalty was there to each man? Did Jesse back down because he didn’t have the support of the majority of men, or was he afraid of reprisals had they survived? I guess we’ll never know.
I keep thinking this sounds like ‘Lord of the Flies’ by William Golding. I wonder if an actual physical fight broke out and Clayton was knocked out during the rumble, and then they suddenly had an unconscious man on their hands, and would have to explain why?
I heard Donut say 19 men chose to go down into that chimney, and I would bet everything I have, or ever will, that’s not true.
Hell, I would bet MY life on it.
Reply to Harold post on July 1, 2019 at 9:55 am
All GREAT questions / thoughts, Harold.
I’m going to chime in but try to keep my answers short and to the point, since
I’m sure others will have more to say.
1. Oxygen levels.
WARNING: If you don’t want to hear about information contained in the GM autopsy reports, do NOT read the next paragraph.
In the autopsy reports, all of the deceased hotshots had evidence of severe trauma to their throats, airways and lungs… but no cause of death was listed as actual asphyxiation ( oxygen deprivation ). This means they were still able to ‘breathe’… at/near the end… but it was mostly super-hot air and smoke. The actual oxygen content might have been severley depleted in those moments… but that’s not what they ALL died of, if you catch my drift.
The place they chose to deploy was NOT survivable. Period.
As for the boulder fields on BOTH sides of the box canyon… they were in elevated positions and it’s not likely that lack of actual oxygen would have been an issue. It would have been no picnic, for sure, but if the heat didn’t get them… they probably would have survived there.
The documented case of those other THREE Prescott firefighters, in a completely different incident at another time, surviving a similar burnover by taking refuge in a boulder field proves that oxygen wasn’t really an issue. Only one of the three suffered any burns at all, and again, while it was no picnic… they were not ‘oxygen starved’ during that burnover.
2. Anti-mortem sub-scalp hemorrhage injuries ( Clayton Whitted )
It was most likely an actual FALL… but there is also always the other possibility that, in his final moments, Whitted was just banging his own head on the ground and trying to knock himself unconscious. This is actually a DOCUMENTED behavior coming from the testimony of other firefighters who went into shelters but survived their burnovers. There comes a point where the pain is so bad you would rather be unconscious.
In my opinion… it is HIGHLY unlikely there was any kind of actual ‘fight’ that might have cause Whitted’s head injuries.
3. Loss of respect for Marsh.
I’m not sure you could call it a loss of respect versus more like a ‘distancing’. A LOT of the GM crew were either new that year or had only served one season… and they simply KNEW ( and trusted ) Jesse Steed much more than they did Eric Marsh. Eric Marsh ‘kept his distance’ ( both literally and figuratively ) from the crew, most of the time, and most of the crew worshipped Jesse Steed. There’s also the fact that Marsh had been injured and away from the crew completely for a lot of the 2013 season.
Marsh had hiked out ahead of the crew that morning, and remained physically separated from them most of the day ( as was his habit ). That made Marsh just this ‘voice on the radio’ to them… like any other ‘up level’ fire command person.
It was actually saw team leader Travis Carter who ‘spit on the ground’ ( as captured in one of Christopher Mackenzie’s 9 second video clips ). Marsh had just said “I just knew this was comin’… I could just feel it, ya know”… and that’s when Travis Carter ‘spit’ on the ground and appeared to say ( sarcastically ) “We’ve been feelin’ it all day”. Kevin Woyjeck and some of the other GM Hotshots near Carter then ‘laughed’ in turn.
But regardless of what Travis Carter might have actually said to cause those other GM crew members to laugh ( out loud )… the ‘takeaway’ from that clip is that we can see and hear with our own eyes and ears that GM crew members would not hesitate to be sarcastic about, or laugh at, things Eric Marsh would say over the radio… even in Jesse Steed’s hearing… as long as they were sure Jesse wasn’t holding down the transmit button on his radio.
ALL of the crew KNEW that Jesse Steed was being ‘mentored’ to be the replacement for Marsh, who was, in turn, being actively mentored by Darrell Willis to become the Wildland Divsion Chief. That was no secret. So during that 2013 season, the GM crew KNEW that Jesse Steed was really the one they needed to ‘bond’ with the most and the one to be ‘loyal’ to.
4. INTEGRITY
Just for the record… I’m not aware of any documentation of what went on in Wade Parker’s interview… but when Eric Marsh interviewed Brendan McDonough… it was the exact OPPOSITE of the ‘movie scene’ you are describing.
From Brendan’s book, where he is describing what happened in his ‘job interview’…
——————————————————————————————–
Eric’s eyes held mine.
“Brendan,” he said, his voice calm, “Let me ask you a
question. What is integrity?”
I was caught off guard.
“Integrity?”
“Yeah.”
I was stumped. This I’d never expected. Some words jumbled
out of my mouth, “honesty” and “character” maybe; I was just
babbling anything I could think of. But I had the feeling
everyone in that room knew that I had no idea what the word
really meant.
————————————————————————————————-
SIDENOTE: The above is only relevant if you believe anything that Brendan McDonough ever says. Some people do not.
As far as the movie line about “This guy’s a doper”, there is no question that Marsh wasn’t afraid to hire crew members with current or past drug issues. MANY of the GM Hotshots were the same as Donut. Past ( or even current ) drug-use issues. Marsh himself was an ex-addict.
That was simply one of the ‘themes’ for the movie. Marsh ( supposedly ) being known for giving people second-chances. True or not… it sells ( movie ) tickets.
5. Why did Jesse back down?
I think Jesse Steed would have had the “support of the majority of the men” no matter what he decided. All reports are that Steed really did already have that level of ‘loyalty’ established with the entire GM crew.
I think it is much more likely that Jesse Steed eventually ‘gave in’ to Marsh’s ‘mitigating speech’ and passive-manipulation because he really didn’t want to deal with the consequences of NOT doing so.
Jesse Steed put his own situation ( whatever he perceived that to be ) ahead of the overall safety of his crew.
Jesse Steed just needed a little more spinal-fluid that day and none of us would have ever been here having these conversations.
Eric Marsh is the one who decided to “roll the dice” that day…. but there is also no question that Jesse Steed himself chose to “stay at the table”.
Whatever HE had decided… I’m pretty sure the crew would have supported him.
6. You said… “I heard Donut say 19 men chose to go down into that chimney, and I would bet everything I have, or ever will, that’s not true.”
And USFS Employee and SAIT Co-lead Mike Dudley agrees with you.
Just before the first anniversary of Yarnell, Dudley was speaking to a lecture-hall full of firefighters and he, himself, said that he was SURE any number of those men had their “doubts” about whether descending into a blind box canyon full of explosive fuel with no designated lookout at the height of the burn cycle was (quote) “a good idea”.
The only thing Dudley himself said he couldn’t be SURE of was whether anyone expressed
those ‘doubts’, that day.
None of that was, of course, included in Dudley’s SAIR report… because there was no “human factors” evaluation at all included in the report… as there SHOULD have been.
Thanks for setting me straight on all that!
I chatted with Joy last week and she said the only thing the movie got right was the tragedy itself. So is it fair to say it’s a complete waste of time to reference it, at all?
Also, you mentioned MacKenzie’s videos and Marsh’s mitigating speech. Is that still publicly available to someone like me? I’ve never seen/heard them.
Thanks WTKTT!
Reply to Harold post on July 1, 2019 at 1:30 pm
>> Harold said…
>>
>> Thanks for setting me straight on all that!
Don’t take my opinions as ‘gospel’. I’m sure others will have more to say about the actual strength or weakness of the ‘relationship’ between Marsh and Steed, etc.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> I chatted with Joy last week and she said the only thing the
>> movie got right was the tragedy itself.
The movie’s depiction of ‘the tragedy’ itself and how it happened, was ( like the rest of the movie ) mostly fiction.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> So is it fair to say it’s a complete waste of time to reference it, at all?
I’m going to say no.
It’s fascinating that this ‘movie’ is your actual ‘entry point’ to even KNOWING about this tragedy.
I would say go ahead and keep asking about things that you believe to be true, just because you saw them in some movie, so that we can take them one-by one.
I believe it IS, in fact, helpful, to keep ‘debunking’ this stupid movie in a public setting. Too many people believe it’s actually accurate.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> Also, you mentioned MacKenzie’s videos and Marsh’s mitigating
>> speech. Is that still publicly available to someone like me? I’ve
>> never seen/heard them.
On the same day that Arizona Forestry first released the original “Special Accident Investigation Report” ( SAIR ) regarding the Yarnell Tragedy ( September 28, 2013 ).. the Prescott Democrat Courier newspaper also released the two VIDEO clips that had been recovered from GM Hotshot Christopher Mackenzie’s camera.
The public was not aware they even existed ( or that any photos or videos had been recovered from any deceased GM hotshot device ) until that moment. The Prescott Democrat Courier had the videos, and Mackenzie’s other photos, but had agreed to NOT release them until the SAIR report came out.
Here is that original ‘release page’ for the TWO 9 second VIDEO clips that were recovered from Christopher Mackenzie’s CANON digital camera…
YouTube
Video Title: Granite Mountain Hotshots last video by Christopher MacKenzie – 99,326 views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omfw_Unt_VQ
Video Description…
———————————————————————————-
dCouriervideos ( The Prescott Democrat Courier )
Published on Sep 28, 2013
Granite Mountain Hotshot Christopher MacKenzie shot these last two video clips shortly after 4:00 p.m. on June 30, 2013. These are the last images of the hotshots before they tragically died fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire at approximately 4:50 p.m.
—————————————————————————–
The TWO 9-second video clips are separated by a slight ‘fade’ in-between them.
They were shot just 30 seconds apart from each other.
The FIRST clip is the one where you will see SAW TEAM LEADER Travis Carter ( leaning on his saw on the right frame of the video ) ‘spit’ on the ground and make a comment about what Eric Marsh just said to Jesse Steed… which causes the other hotshots to LAUGH, right at the end of the clip.
Jesse Steed himself is the one seated on the rock, with his back to the camera and wearing the RED helmet. We can hear what Eric Marsh is saying because Jesse had the volume turned way up on his handheld Bendix-King radio.
Both the SAIT and the Prescott Daily Courier were initially WRONG about the TIMES for all of the photos and videos that were recovered from Christopher Mackenzie’s CANON digital camera.
They initially thought these Mackenzie videos were shot ‘shortly after 4:00 PM’.
That is not the case.
We are the ones that eventually determined that Christopher Mackenzie’s CANON digital camera had its time set incorrectly that day… and was actually time-stamping photos and videos exactly 8 minutes and 16 seconds AHEAD of the REAL time that day.
** The FIRST video clip…
Actual filename on Mackenzie’s CANON digitial camera: MVI_0888.MOV
Clip duration: 9.24 seconds
Actual TIME it was taken: 1553:15 ( 3:53:15 PM )
Audio captured in this 9.24 second MVI_0888 video clip…
———————————————————————————
(Eric Marsh, on the radio, with modulation): Ah… I jus… I was just sayin’ I knew this was comin’ when I called ya and asked how… what your comfort level was. I could just feel it… ya know.
(Saw Team Leader Travis Carter standing to the right of Jesse Steed): ?( We’ver been feelin’ it all day )( then he spits on the ground and the FF to his right, Kevin Woyjeck, and others all laugh at what he said ).
————————————————————————————
** The SECOND video clip… ( Shot 30 seconds after the first one )
Actual filename on Mackenzie’s CANON digitial camera: MVI_0891.MOV
Clip duration: 9.14 seconds
Actual TIME it was taken: 1553:54 ( 3:53:54 PM )
Audio captured in this 9.14 second MVI_0891 video clip…
———————————————————————————
(Eric Marsh, on the radio, with modulation): …change, ya know.
NOTE: Two words then follow which sound like either “You bet” or “Too bad” and might be either Eric Marsh finishing his own statement or someone else ( over the radio ) responding to what Marsh just said. This has still not been fully determined.
(Jesse Steed, in the foreground, no modulation): I copy… and it’s almost made it to that two-track road we walked in on.
———————————————————————————-
If this is the first time you’ve ever seen/heard these video clips… let us know if what you are hearing matches the above or whether YOU are hearing things differently. It’s never too late to have more ‘ears’ listening to these Yarnell-related video clips.
Thanks again! I will listen to those clips in a while, and let you know what I hear. There’s a lot of noise in my current environment.
I know it’s not these ones, but I listened to one somewhere else, a couple weeks ago where they were arguing about it sounding like Eric Marsh was saying he was ‘at the ranch’ and you cleaned it up and stated he was saying something like ‘…we’re coming out at…’ anyway, in that case I heard EXACTLY what you heard. Just thought I’d let you know…
Also, in your reply above you state: ‘On the same day that Arizona Forestry first released the original “Special Accident Investigation Report…’.
I’m thrown a bit by the two terms ‘ORIGINAL’ and ‘SPECIAL’ in your statement. My copy is called ‘SERIOUS’ Accident Investigation Report…was there more than one SAIR?
A couple bonus questions: Is there a set rule for the min/max number of hotshots on a crew. And is there a required number of sawyers, or do both of these vary?
I live 2,200 miles away from Yarnell, and at the time of the tragedy, I was in a crisis situation myself, also I’ve only had the internet for a couple years now, so there was very little chance I was going to hear about it. So, yeah, the movie started it all, but I know how Hollywood is, and I needed to know more.
Reply to Harold post on July 1, 2019 at 3:50 pm
>> Harold said…
>>
>> I know it’s not these ones, but I listened to one
>> somewhere else, a couple weeks ago where
>> they were arguing about it sounding like Eric
>> Marsh was saying he was ‘at the ranch’
>> and you cleaned it up and stated he was saying
>> something like ‘…we’re coming out at…’ anyway, in
>> that case I heard EXACTLY what you heard.
>> Just thought I’d let you know…
Ah yes… the infamous Holly Neill assumption that Eric Marsh was recorded saying he was “at the house”… which everyone then assumed meant Eric Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch that day BEFORE going BACKWARDS to return to his crew and die with them.
That is NOT what is heard in that AFUE recording. Never has been. Even Holly Neill’s boss, author John Maclean, “backed off” her original claim.
But the damage was done. People still believe there is a recording of Eric Marsh saying “I’m at the ranch”… when that isn’t even what Neill herself ( mistakenly ) thought SHE heard in the recording(s).
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> Also, in your reply above you state: ‘On the same day
>> that Arizona Forestry first released the original
>> “Special Accident Investigation Report…’.
>>
>> I’m thrown a bit by the two terms ‘ORIGINAL’
>> and ‘SPECIAL’ in your statement. My copy is
>> called ‘SERIOUS’ Accident Investigation
>> Report…was there more than one SAIR?
My bad ( and good catch ).
That was a bad use of the word ‘original’ as an adjective, on my part. There was ONLY ONE report released ( on September 28, 2013 ) and it WAS/IS called the Yarnell Hill Fire “SERIOUS Accident Investigation Report” ( SAIR ).
The use of the word ‘Special’ was a typo ( sic: Brain Fart ) on my part.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> A couple bonus questions: Is there a set rule for
>> the min/max number of hotshots on a crew. And is
>> there a required number of sawyers,
>> or do both of these vary?
There ABSOLUTELY ARE ‘set rules’ for the exact makeup of a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew, right down to the ‘Red Card’ qualifications that are supposed to be ‘on board’, number of sawyers ( 4 ), number of radios, etc., etc.
NOTE: In the document below… acronymns like ‘FAL2’ and ‘FAL1″ stand for ‘Faller Class 2’ or ‘Faller Class 3’. Those are ratings for ‘sawyers’ and where the LOWER the number, the more experienced they are. The sawyer classifications have recently been changed to LETTERS and they go the other way now, where a ‘FALC’ is actually MORE experienced than a ‘FALB’.
The National Interagency Fire Center ( NIFC )
Document Name: STANDARDS FOR INTERAGENCY HOTSHOT CREW OPERATIONS
On PDF page 7…
————————————————————-
MINUMUM IHC MOBILIZATION STANDARDS
– The standard crew size 20-22. A minimum of 18 fireline-qualified personnel is required for mobilization.
– Have 80 percent of the crew members with at least one previous season of fire experience.
– Have FOUR ( 4 ) certified as FAL2 ( sawyers ) per crew, with 50 percent of the crew certified as FAL3 or better.
– Have a minimum of seven permanently assigned leadership.
– Have an assigned availability period with a minimum of 90 consecutive calendar days ( including required days off ).
– Work and train together a minimum of 40 hours per week during their availability period.
– Be available for incident assignments with NO geographic restrictions.
– Have the ability to break down into a minimum of three squads for initial attack and/or other independent operations.
– Have assigned vehicles, hand tools, powers saws and communications equipment configured for their needs.
– Have a minimum of EIGHT ( 8 ) programmable radios.
– Be logistically self-sufficient utilizing credit-cards or agency purchasing authority.
– When mobilizing via commercial or charter airline to an incident and the crew is authorized to transport crew vehicles, not have have the staffing of the crew at the incident drop below 18 fireline qualified personnel without approval from the ordering unit.
– When mobilizing via commercial or charter airline to an incident the crew will not have more than 20 personnel flying without prior approval from the National Interagency Coordination Center ( NICC ).
MINIMUM IHC LEADERSHIP STAFFING
IHC shall be staffed to provide skilled personnel to accomplish IHC mission objectives. IHC will maintain a MINIMUM of SEVEN PERMANENT/CAREER POSITIONS.
Minimum IHC leadership staffing WILL include the following positions as part of an IHC organization:
One Superintendent, One Assistant Superintendent/Captain, Three Squad Leaders, Two Senior Firefighters.
* OR *
One Superintendent, Two Assistant Superintendents/Captains, Two Squad Leaders, Two Senior Firefighters.
————————————————————————–
It was THESE NIFC ‘Minimum Standards’ to qualify as a Type 1 IHC Crew that Eric Marsh himself said he was UNABLE TO MEET, on May 3, 2013… just 57 days before the tragedy.
Marsh said it flat-out in his own annual 2013 ‘Employee Self Appraisal’ submitted to management at the Prescott Fire Department.
Document in SAIT FOIA/FOIL package: ASF000042-INV to ASF000384-INV.pdf
On page 252 ( of 343 pages )
——————————————————————-
City of Prescott
EMPLOYEE SELF APPRAISAL
EMPLOYEE NAME: Eric Marsh
DEPARTMENT: Fire
POSITION TITLE: Superintendent
EVALUATION TYPE: Annual
DATE: May 3, 2013
* Greatest workplace challenges over the last year
It is challenging to run a nationally recognized program with minimum standards and requirements that I am unable to meet.
———————————————————————
Eric did not say it was HARD to meet the Type 1 IHC minimum standards.
Eric said he was UNABLE to meet the Type 1 IHC minimum standards.
Eric Marsh was telling Prescott Fire Department management, in writing ( and just 57 days before the tragedy ) that he was basically faking it… and that if management didn’t respond to his needs someone was going to eventually find out that he was faking it.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> I live 2,200 miles away from Yarnell, and at the time of
>> the tragedy, I was in a crisis situation myself, also I’ve
>> only had the internet for a couple years now, so there was
>> very little chance I was going to hear about it. So, yeah,
>> the movie started it all, but I know how Hollywood is, and
>> I needed to know more.
No one outside of the Hollywood people who “smelled money” ever really wanted that movie to be made. They ( the Hollywood producers ) had to basically ‘strong arm’ the Prescott area people into ‘signing on’ to the project.
They told them that they were going to make the movie no matter what… so they might as well ‘sign on’ and ‘get with the program’ and HELP them do it.
That is exactly the way former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty described how HE got involved… after turning them down any number of times.
Pat McCarty is the one who ended up running the ‘bootcamp for the actors’ that was the only thing that gave the actors a chance in hell of looking like real Hotshots when the cameras started rolling.
Pat McCarty, in turn, took the producers’ ‘line of bullshit’ to others ( like Amanda Marsh ) and told THEM that “They’re gonna do this with or without us… so we might as well help it has a chance of coming out anywhere near right”.
Even after they started filming… when Eric Marsh’s friend and Southwest Area Type 2 Team Incident Commander Alan Sinclair heard they were going to be filming on the day of one of the June 30 anniversaries… Sinclair drove all the way to New Mexico with the intent of “shutting it all down” for at least that one day. He arrived there and was allowed to ‘speak’ to the cast and crew… but they still ended up continuing with the ‘shoots’ that day, anyway.
I still believe it is important to keep ‘debunking’ this movie in public forums, since so many people really DO believe it is ‘accurate’. It’s not.
Followup…
Regarding you “willing to bet” that not ALL of those men were happy to “choose” to go on “Eric Marsh’s Death March”… the wife of deceased GM Hotshot Billy Warneke agrees with you.
https://web.archive.org/web/20171218001043/https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ff-yarnell-fire-settlement-20150629-story.html
—————————————————————————————–
Roxanne Warneke visited Yarnell Hill, where her husband, Billy, and his crew were overtaken by a quick-turning brush fire.
The visit was troubling, Warneke said, because her husband would NOT have chosen to descend into a deep, brush-filled valley unless he was ORDERED to.
“Descending into that canyon went against everything he was taught,” Warneke said at a televised news conference on Monday in Phoenix.
“After that day, I knew I needed ANSWERS.”
——————————————————————————————
Roxanne Warneke was one of the widows who used her wrongful-death settlement money to start the ‘Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute” ( WFGI ).
Also…
Deceased GM Hotshot Billy Warneke’s wife, Roxanne, wasn’t just ‘assuming’ how her husband felt about going down into canyons. She was WITH HIM, out in the field, when he TOLD her about how dangerous they could be.
Billy Warneke had taken classes for upwares of EIGHT YEARS in “Advanced Land Navigation”, and was WELL aware of the dangers.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/editorial/2015/06/29/view-hotshot-lawsuit-settled-question-lingers/29496569/
——————————————————————————-
Roxanne Warneke, widow of hotshot Billy Warneke, spoke Monday about visiting the site of her husband’s death two days after the fire. She recalled times with her husband in similar wilderness, scouting deer. Billy, she said, told her of the dangers of descending into just that sort of densely overgrown canyon.
“I had remembered a saying that my husband had once told me when we were deer scouting two years before. He said to never go into a canyon,” said Roxanne Warneke, the widow of one of the firefighters, at the news conference. “Descending into that canyon went against everything he was taught in advanced land navigation, that he had spent over eight years studying and practicing.”
——————————————————————————
So no one was fooling Roxanne, good for her!!
You’ve just brought up another question I have.
I know from what I’ve seen here, Eric’s widow stands by him to this day, and Andrew Ashcraft’s mother is doing her own ‘investigation’ podcasts (I haven’t watched any of those yet), but I was wondering what the general consensus is among the families of the victims. Are they split over this or all on one side or….?
I guess what I’m trying to say is, do any of them support IM and what we are doing here?
Oh, and I wanted to ask you how you got involved in this tragedy, if you don’t mind. You are so advanced you obviously have either been at this a long time or you picked it up pretty quick. You don’t have to answer if you are not comfortable with this question.
I’m actually good at math but these CAPTCHA make you think sometimes. That’s interesting…
My story is really as simple as it gets.
Here in the USA… you basically had to have been a living in a cave to not have heard about this National Tragedy.
Actually… Sonny/Charlie basically WAS ‘living in a cave’ near that time… but he didn’t need CNN to learn what happened. He was fucking THERE that day… and one of the last persons to ever see those men alive.
For the rest of us… it was a national ( indeed, global ) call for us to all MOURN with the ‘powers-that-be’ and the ‘families’ over this terrible tragedy.
So we did.
And to open our wallets… and donate.
Which a lot of us also did.
And then we waited.
And we waited… and we waited… to hear something ( anything ) about how people who were supposed to be wildland fire experts could have somehow just walked right into an oncoming wall of flame ( in a box canyon, no less ), like they were just another group of stupid-ass tourists out on a bird-watching hike.
And then they gave us preacher-wannabee and military-jarhead-wannabee Darrell Willis, and the FIRST ‘press conference’ held out at the deployment site.
And the OFFICIAL explanation we ALL ( finally ) got was ( drumroll, please… ) “They died with HONOR. You can call it an accident… but God had another plan for those men”.
I think, at that moment, I actually stood up in my living room and shouted “Oh NO the FUCK you don’t! Don’t you DARE give us just that kind of BULLSHIT after asking ALL of us to go on this ride with you people!”
So that’s pretty much it for me.
You can basically thank Darrell Willis for my decision to learn as much as I possibly could and for ‘Wanting to Know the TRUTH’.
After that… it all just got much worse, of course.
Even after that bullshit press conference… MANY people ( myself included ) were still giving them the benefit of the doubt and waiting for the ‘reports’ to come out.
They COULD have done the right thing.
They SHOULD have done the right thing..
But they did not… and now the karma cops are on duty.
If they don’t give a shit about their own employees and their safety, now and in the future ( and they obviously do NOT )… someone needs to.
I personally “blew a gasket” when the bullshit, expertly crafted pack-o-lies SAIR came out, replete with fantasy & purposefully misleading video flyover.
I’ve been in the business a while now. 3 burnovers and one particularly troubling multi-fatality fire where 3 good people gave their lives for no good reason. I’m beat up, scarred up, physically & mentally exhausted. If I only knew then what I know now. No more!
My “trigger” to stand up for those men and what’s right is the SAIT making numerous announcements to the effect: “we’ll never really know what happened…” Oh yeah? Watch me!!!
Still pissed!
A fresh look from others is a really good thing. Thanks! It’s important.
Actually, what brought me here initially was review of the crew’s Resource Order. It was unlike any other I have seen. It indicated possible “cooking the books” on pay rates and the reimbursement funds the home unit (City of Prescott) would receive by employment of their resources. THAT was the watershed moment for me to find out what the fuck is going on here? And…its just snowballed from there. You just truly can’t make this shit up.
The families were manipulated the entire way in the aftermath by people, some of which actually played a role in the creation of the crew, whom did not have their interests in mind.
As far I can see, if any of the loved ones want to know the truth, we here at the blog are their last hope and by extension, Joys blog.
We are tenacious. Those men deserve this much.
Reply to Harold post on July 1, 2019 at 4:06 pm
>> Harold said…
>>
>> So no one was fooling Roxanne, good for her!!
She is a VERY smart woman. No doubt.
She understood what her husband did for a living, but she never “swallowed the kool-aid” like so many wives and family members of other wildland firefighters so often do.
When her also very smart, capable and experienced husband ended up dead on the floor of a friggin’ box canyon.. she wanted to know ( and STILL wants to know ) WHY.
Roxanne was also one of THREE Granite Mountain Hotshot wives who was pregnant on June 30, 2013, and had to give birth to babies who would REALLY ( and truly ) never, ever know their father(s).
The Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute that she co-founded with Deborah Pfingston and Juliann Ashcraft ( GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft’s mother and widow, respectively ) has never lived up to its potential… but it’s still an active organization.
They basically just spent money for a cool-looking website, and then proceeded to do absolutely jack-shit regarding their own ‘mission statement’.
The Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute ( WFGI )
https://www.wfgi.org/
Roxanne Warneke has always been the ‘Chairman’ of that organization… and Deborah Pfingston was the ‘Co-Chair’ and/or ‘Vice-Chair’ for YEARS… until just late last year. Suddenly, both she and fellow Board member Doug Harwood ( former GM Hotshot ) either QUIT that organization or got thrown overboard. Rumor has it that it had something to do with Pfingston and Harwood wanting to publish their own “What Really Happened to Granite Mountain” PODCASTS under the auspices of the WFGI… but since it was all just truly unproven “conspiracy theories”… the WFGI refused to sponsor them… and so they bailed and did it independently.
Who knows.
We may find out the REAL story there, one of these days.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> You’ve just brought up another question I have.
>>
>> I know from what I’ve seen here, Eric’s widow stands
>> by him to this day, and Andrew Ashcraft’s mother is
>> doing her own ‘investigation’ podcasts (I haven’t
>> watched any of those yet), but I was wondering what
>> the general consensus is among the families of the
>> victims. Are they split over this or all on one side or….?
>>
>> I guess what I’m trying to say is, do any of them
>> support IM and what we are doing here?
No one has ever ‘taken a survey’… so no one knows for sure.
SOME of the family members are known to still be carrying the “Granite Mountain was the greatest, bestest, most superiffic Hotshot crew there ever was and were INCAPABLE of ever making ANY mistakes or EVER making any bad decisions” FLAG… but SOME other family members most definitely have never, nor would they ever, carry that same “Rose Colored FLAG”.
The proof of that lies in the fact that a MAJORITY of the Granite Mountain family members all bonded together and filed civil WRONGFUL-DEATH lawsuits over the still-not-full-explained loss of their loved ones in that Arizona Forestry workplace.
Deborah Pfingston herself now admits ( in her PODCASTS ) that SHE was instrumental in convincing all the other family members AND the Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) to SETTLE their respective legal actions against Arizona Forestry… and she also adds that she now considers that to have been a huge MISTAKE… and she openly APOLOGIZED for that in one of her recent PODCASTS.
And that’s a big deal… because if you know even a little about Deborah Pfingston… that might have been only the second time in her life she has ‘apologized’ to ANYONE… about ANYTHING. Hell… might have even been the FIRST time.
There actually was a time when Deborah Pfingston was actively posting on this ongoing forum… and asking for help and answers to questions she had.
We helped her all we could… but when it became clear that we were after the REAL truth… and not a ‘truth’ that would willy-nilly ‘exonerate’ Granite Mountain from any wrongdoing themselves… she disappeared.
So Pfingston is an odd duck. She KNOWS the SAIT was a whitewash and a coverup… but yet she still is one that carries the ‘Rose Colored FLAG’ when it comes to that Granite Mountain crew that her son was on.
There’s really never been anything like this ( as Gary Olson has pointed out many times ).
There’s never been a multiple-fatality incident like this where we have had to actually WATCH a lot of the family members just try to work out their OWN grief and their OWN PTSD using social media and whatnot while others in the same public ‘Cloud’ are just trying to find out what REALLY happened to their loved ones.
It’s very strange.
But rest assured… even though SOME of those family members that are the “loudest in the room” are the ones still carrying the “Rose Colored FLAG”… MANY other not-so-loud-or-self-serving family members appreciate everything we have been able to find out so far… and look forward to what ELSE can be discovered and/or learned about this Historic National Tragedy.
So then, if Billy Warneke had told his wife about the dangers of descending into just that sort of densely overgrown canyon and he said to never go into such a canyon.
And his widow spoke at a news conference about what her husband knew that “Descending into that canyon went against everything he was taught in advanced land navigation, that he had spent over eight years studying and practicing.”
And former Payson HS Scott Norris, an avid student of wildland fire fatality human factors “knew better” according to his sister and girlfriend …
Then why the f**k did they leave their perfectly good Safety Zone when they did?
You’re forgetting that there were TWO ‘moments of truth’ that afternoon.
The FIRST was the BAD decision to actually leave the safe black in the first place.
The SECOND was when they reached the saddle and ONLY THEN saw Marsh’s pink ribbon telling them to “take a left” and go down into the fuel-filled box canyon… and then came the SECOND equally-BAD decision.
Famously-stubborn Eric Marsh just wanted to get his way.
The sick part is that he might have actually been CONCEALING the realities of the second-half of the risky trip he wanted them to take… because if he had TOLD Steed what that REALITY looked like, Steed might have refused to ever leave the safe black back at the anchor point.
Marsh might have figured that if he could just get Jesse and the crew “gaggled up” and moving south… then by the time they reached the saddle and ( for the FIRST time ) saw that ‘second part’ of the journey Marsh had flagged-out… that Steed would now be faced with either going BACK to where they came from… or just plowing ahead like Marsh wanted him to.
It might be that when Jesse finally “gave in” to Marsh’s demands, he might have been thinking Marsh had, in fact, found some perfectly hikable route all the way to the ranch… or he might have been just ‘assumiing’ that because Marsh had been hiding the truth during their “negotiations”.
That ‘Escape Route’ ( as Marsh called it in his final radio transmission ) had NOT been scouted by Jesse Steed. Jesse had NO IDEA what lay around that corner of the saddle because the realities of that box canyon could NOT be SEEN from where he was.
He was RELYING on Eric Marsh to find a ‘safe/quick way’ to the BSR ‘Safety Zone’.
Big mistake ( on Steed’s part ).
Clarification for above…
I said…
“He ( Jesse Steed ) was RELYING on Eric Marsh to find a ‘safe/quick way’ to the BSR ‘Safety Zone’.”
That makes it sound like Jesse Steed was ‘eager’ to make the move to the BSR, and wanted Marsh to find the safe/quick way to get there.
There is, of course, no evidence that was the case.
All the available evidence points to the OPPOSITE situation…. that Jesse Steed really didn’t WANT to leave the black at all and Marsh was the one who had to convince ( order? ) him to do it.
What I was trying to say was that when Jesse finally agreed to take the crew out of the safe black and towards the BSR… Steed ( and, indeed, Billy Warneke and all the other experienced men ) might have been, at THAT point, just ASSUMING that Marsh had found a CLEAR, easily-hikable path to the BSR and that’s the only reason he was trying to ‘green light’ the risky move.
Marsh MAY have been actually ‘hiding’ the ‘realities’ of that second half of the ‘trip’ from Steed and the others… just to get them to ‘gaggle up’ and leave the black.
And it was only when they all finally “rounded that bend” that they FIRST saw the reality of what Marsh NOW expected them to do.
It’s possible.
A bit of clarification on the Marine Warneke post. In an AZ Central article this is what Warneke said of her husband specifically based on his Marine Corps training: “Warneke said she believes her husband would only have abandoned a safe ridge and hiked into danger if he was directed to do so. ‘Orders,’ she explained. ‘He was a Marine who was used to taking orders’.”
( https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/06/29/yarnell-hill-fire-lawsuits-settlement-press-conference/29463359/ )
And some clarification on the “mitigating speech” issue.
Mitigating and / or hinting speech was examined by Human Factors researcher Malcolm Gladwell in his Book “Outliers” and is addressed here in the article titled: “The Power of Language: Effective Communication at Any Level by Duncan Nisbet on March 30, 2015. ( https://www.stickyminds.com/article/power-language-effective-communication-any-level )
“[Gladwell] defines it as ‘any attempt to downplay or sugarcoat the meaning of what is being said.’ It most often results in indirect speech, especially between two people with perceived hierarchical differences, such as an employee and a superior.”
The article also notes that researchers Ute Fischer and Judith Orasanu identified six degrees of language mitigation:
(1) Command
(2) Team Obligation Statement
(3) Team Suggestion
(4) Query
(5) Preference
(6) Hint or mitigation
In Gladwell’s Outlier book, he recounts numerous incidents from aircraft accidents, some fatal, that resulted from mitigating speech. These especially occurred when the Senior / Chief Pilot was flying and the Junior Pilot was following the “deference to authority” human factor and not want to step out-of-bounds.
The one case I recall was when the Junior Pilot was concerned about a Winter storm deicing operation of the plane before take-off and the Senior / Chief Pilot was pretty much blowing him off repeatedly. Long story short, the deicing operation was a problem correctly recognized by the Junior Pilot who failed to use direct speech to halt the operation. The plane ultimately crashed into a hillside killing everyone onboard.
There is credible research indicating that there are MORE aircraft incidents when the Chief Pilot is flying and LESS when the junior Pilot is flying the plane.
The military, and especially the Marine Corps is (or at least has been) all about following orders, There has been significant improvement with this dealing with risk versus gain. And the aircraft industry formulated the Cockpit Resource Management (CRM) concept which has resulted in huge improvements in communications and speaking up.
The Outliers book, and certainly the article, are well worth reading.
Well, Robert, you pre-empted my next question, which was going to be why would William go into that situation, even after knowing it was so important, that he taught it to Roxanne.
But it takes me to my next question: what would be the immediate and post-incident repercussions of any one of those men refusing to follow the ‘death march’ and just saying ‘F’ this I’m not going down there? What scared them more than potentially losing their lives?
The rookies might not have thought there was any danger, but William certainly did. It seems to me they would have had the rules/codes on their side in the case of any disciplinary action. Or does following an order supersede all the other rules?
Harold,
I posted one above (July 1, 2019 at 9:22 PM) out of sequence and should answer one of your questions.
You posted: “It seems to me they would have had the rules/codes on their side in the case of any disciplinary action. Or does following an order supersede all the other rules?”
It’s called the Turn Down Protocol or How to Properly Refuse Risk
( http://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-art-of-refusing-risk-respecting.html )
( https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/refusing-risk )
All WFs and FFs have the obligation to refuse assignments – after first offering an option(s) – if they are unsafe, illegal, immoral, or unethical. Stupid doesn’t count, so sometimes you have to proved to the overhead that their tactics won’t work.
And be willing to have them accept your option(s) or be reassigned to Division Siberia, somewhere that’s been out for a week or so and finally demobbed for some trumped up BS cause
Well, this seems like a no-brainer then.
It’s hard to understand why one of these men that knew the danger of entering the box canyon, didn’t refuse the order and just offer the alternative to return to the black, or take the extra time to continue on the two-track down the ridge. Was there an extenuating circumstance that made them afraid to do a work refusal? I guess we’ll never know,
I know these options were outlined in the SAIR and I imagine this has already been hashed out before,.. it seems so obvious.
Thanks for those questions Harold–I am curious what the pros will say as well.
Thanks Woodsman, WTKTT, RTS and Harold–Your Questions brought a lot of light out on the subject–I gathered some very interesting information. Whew–I hope WTKTT is involved in a documentary presentation somewhere down the line and backed by Woodsman, RTS, Gary, Norb, Dr. Ted Putnam, Joy, and so many others that have such wisdom and knowledge concerning the proper methods working wild fires so as to keep the men safe. I am humbled by the wisdom presented by WTKTT and others here on this site. This is life saving wisdom and knowledge that needs to be out for everyone. Your presentation is marvelous–where were the dummies that made that movie and why did they not consult the wise ones we find on this site? I do not understand when so many lives can be saved by the truth,.
I had not known about some that did get into the boulders and managed to save themselves. I am certain now if you did hike those boulders as Joy and I had several times you would understand how you could get below ground so that you would have had a wall better than they had at the Helms so called bomb proof ranch. Some of those boulders not 100 yards from where they died are the size of a freight car and piled so that there are several places I am certain the Indians must have used for shelter and certainly animals as large as a bear would be able to hide and be totally out of sight.. The other side of the mountain was the same and I was having to use a long yucca stick for Joy to hold on to as she slid down some. But that was my own idea that we might have to use them if that fire did come over and surround us in that boulder field. One thing had been on my mind was that I had watched the fire behavior that morning in the boulders and Marsh was able to navigate all around and back and forth across the fire edge–he was smelling smoke for sure but he was not in any way harmed by a fire that was actually advancing as he was crossing the fire edge. Those men had been working in the boulder area as well but had ended their line down the mountain after it started entering the dense area of manzanita just to the north of that line they did that morning.
It was interesting that Pulaski had saved 40 of his men in the Great fire of 1910 by getting them into a mine tunnel and having them lie prone. Five had died even in the tunnel or he would have saved 45. It would have been certain death for all otherwise had he not known about the tunnel in the area–and even then he was blinded and suffered smoke inhalation as did all in that situation.
A true documentary with what I hear form WTKTT and others here would not only save wild land fire fighters but it would save civilians as well. Mostly the public is not aware of what action to take nor of the danger of being caught in a canyon such as the GMHS did. Most fire fighters know that a canyon creates a chimney and winds are funneled up a canyon much like a stove pipe draws air. And add the fact that every 10 degree in slope doubles the velocity of a fire advance. I know that wild land fire fighters know these things, yet the public is unaware of that kind of information.
In this area and also the desert areas of Arizona and California when you see a storm in the distance you know all hell will soon break loose even if all is calm in your place. West of Lordsburg we were abiding in a tent for a long time while Dad was mining up the hill–things would be calm and weather fine but when you saw lightening in the distance we knew we had about 15 minutes to tie things down–after that the rolling dust and winds that would take your tent and whatever else was not tied down sailing away and some things you would be lucky to find again somewhere downwind. There huge rolls of dust and sand that ruined lots of windshields –those winds were strong. But I think those kinds of experiences gave me the intuitions to stay alive the day of the fire–and in my search of mind I could never in any way understand how those men would drop off in a trap because they were watching the same thunderstorm we were watching since early morning. Later I learned they had actual warnings that winds would be headed their way in gusts of 40 mph. I did not need that report, I was looking directly at the storm and the last thing I could ever imagine would be that the crew would actually drop off that steep almost bluff into a box canyon choke full of dry manzanita laced with so much dead brush. I have had nightmares over it because I had taken Joy away from her plan and yet I had no way to have been there to alter their route.
It plays on our minds–why we so strongly need the truth out.
But WTKTT is correct–It was Marsh that was back and forth in the boulders–he knew the safety of the boulder area–and where he was was interspersed with vegetation and why the burning and advancing. He had to have known there was some possibility of safety to retreat to a boulder area. The men were down the hill several hundreds of yards from that location. But again, he was distant from the men once they were trapped with the flaming front. So I have to think it was Steed’s idea to cut and pile brush around themselves and try a back burn. I can not imagine they did not have foresight to run to the boulders where that boulder field was almost totally devoid of vegetation Do you think they instead had total faith in those blankets and therefore felt they had not need to get out of the vegetation–only make a small circle and die.
At any rate there was some talk that Steed told Marsh you fucked us over this time or something to the effect–was that true or conjecture?.
Hi Gary, I wanted to do this a couple days ago, but I am not managing my time very well.
By the time I respond with these longer posts, I’m already several conversations behind. Now I realize I just have to let some go, I can’t respond to everyone, every time, and I don’t think anyone expects me to, but this is all still new to me, and as you know, we Canadians have to maintain our image of being nice.
At least until you put a sniper rifle in our hands, then you’re in trouble. Now that you’ve exposed that secret, I expect new theories on JFK will surface. The reason we’re good at long range sniper fire is because we finally found a use for our calmness and patience, that and the fact we just hate having to trudge through all that Iraqi sand. So yeah, we stretch pretty far, but watch out for the recoil when we snap.
And why are Canadian’s so nice? I think it’s largely due to the fact that we have a big brother, south of the border, that we know will always have our back if we need them. (I will post something more about this in a couple days, I hope). It gives us a sense of security – well maybe not so much right now – but were hoping the next election will rectify that situation. That’s if we’re not nuked in the meantime. Just don’t elect O.J. alright?
The other reason we’re so nice, is because we apologize all the time. I know it drives Americans crazy when we’re always saying we’re sorry, but that’s the way we roll, and it keeps us calm and happy. It’s too bad those that know the truth about the events of June 30, 2013 can’t come forward, apologize, and get it off their chests, because I promise it would change their life. It would be hard at first, but then a great weight will be lifted. I know I couldn’t live with something like that on my conscience for very long. It will eventually eat them up, if they don’t get it out, you just can’t hide from that.
I found your comments about the connections between the church and the Prescott fire department very disturbing and interesting. It sounds like that should be fully explored/investigated further, to see just where all that Federal funding has been allocated. Something smells funny…
On another subject, I think it’s strange the similarities between us in relation to our brothers. If I am doing my math right, you lost your brother around the same time as I did. My brother died in 2010 and he was also my best friend, just like your brother was to you. He was best man at my wedding, we worked in the same factory, played on the same ball teams, fished together, loved the same movies…I could go on and on, but you know what I’m talking about.
When he got sick, I was in a crisis of my own and I couldn’t spend much time with him, very little in fact. I was familiar with his symptoms and thought he would have another five years or so, but he had been doing a good of hiding it, and he was gone in less then a year. I had been there with him the night before to spend Christmas with him, and was coming back the next morning when I got the call. I found the floor pretty quick in that moment. Things have never been the same and my life has pretty much stopped.
I know how you feel about not being together at the end, and I’m sorry you lost your little brother that way, so close and then to have him snatched away like that. It makes you feel pretty helpless.
I don’t know how long it’s been, but I am also aware of the tragedy with your father and you have my deepest condolences there, as well, Gary. It sure sounds like you’ve been through hell lately, and I hope there’s brighter days ahead for you.
All those health issues inside your head can’t be much fun, either, and I can tell that’s weighing heavily on you. You just weren’t ready to deal with it before, that’s all, it wasn’t about the money. You’ve always been the big powerful bad-ass man in charge, but this is something that was out of your hands, and you likely figured you could ignore it out of existence. It’s like the old crocodile theory, if you don’t acknowledge him he won’t bite. No one can blame you for that. I’ve done the same thing since they cut something out of the other end of me 7 years ago, you’re damned no matter what you do. I never went back, either, and I know I’ll pay for it, but something’s always out to get you, am I right?
There was a great quote from actor Michael J. Fox when he came out about his Parkinson’s Disease. He said: “Everybody’s got their own bag of hammers they have to carry in this life”. I just thought that was so cool, the way he faced it.
I always enjoy your posts Gary, no matter what you have on your mind, don’t stop… and the same goes for you Charlie… and everyone else for that matter. I try to read them all.
Thanks for listening, Cheers!
Great posts Harold–I fully enjoy your take on things. Yes I will be glad when Gary gets his book finished as well. That is one I would not want to miss–Gary has too much to share and things that will be entertaining but useful to everyone.
Thanks Harold…and once again, I’m very sorry you lost your brother like I did, it sounds like we were in very similar circumstances. My brother died from pancreatic cancer 6 weeks after being diagnosed with it in 2008. He had already retired as a baggage handler with Alaska Airlines out of Juneau. I was born in Ketchikan in the U.S. Territory of Alaska as I am so proud of, and my older sister was born in Anchorage while our father worked on building the first highways up in that country.
As a point of interest, my brother was born in Grants, New Mexico where my father was working in a hell hole Sonny knows well at a place somebody with a real sense of humor named Ambrosia Lake, since I’m sure that hasn’t been a lake anywhere near that vast dusty alkaline wasteland for hundreds of millions of years.
I was three when my father was struck by heavy equipment and knocked down a shaft that was probably about 1200 feet deep according to Sonny who worked in the same mine, although during a different time period (later) and my mother never remarried, because frankly, she never recovered from the shock of losing my father.
But between SOCIALISM, our nation’s safety net that the Republican Party believes we need to eliminate so we can finish giving everything that hasn’t already been given to the top 1% of this country, to them. (Social Security) and the fact she was able to get a government clerk job working for the Army because of my father’s 10 point veterans preference because he had served with the Marines in the South Pacific during WWII, we had a good life.
Socialism, the Department Of Veteran Affairs and a U.S. Department of Justice Scholarship program, plus being a hotshot put me through college and I graduated debt free. A real product of a welfare state.
The big mining companies and the Democratic politicians of New Mexico conspired together to cap what my mother received for my father’s death at $5000.00. Which of course was more money in 1958 than it us today, but still?
Replacement poor White Trash, Mexicans/Spanish and Navajos (and maybe a few Tewa?) miners were far cheaper than resononable safety standards in those mines that were built with a purely profit motive for a very few in mind. Just ask Sonny, he lived to talk about it.
Anyway, I was raised right, and I have had a great life looking for elephants and then my X wife got tired of being married to me after about 40 years, which has really worked out great because it gave me the opportunity to find the only other woman who had ever been in my life or little black book and write to her, “It’s on my Bucket List to ask you if you had a great life, because you certainly deserved one?”
And nobody could have been more surprised than me when she answered my question. And well…that’s about where you came into my life and you are now part of the movie that is my life. WTKTT and I call informally call it, “Forrest Gump…Part II.”
And people have asked me…’Did your brother drink? Because apparently that is associated with pancreatic cancer and the answer is no, he was a Heath nut and vegetarian who spent most of his spare time when he wasn’t with me traveling and trekking around the world. He had been with the Alaska Marine Highways as an ‘able bodied seaman” for two years when he went into a comma and died the next day.
And yes…the Canadian people and we will always have each other’s backs and we will be friends and allies long after President Aberration has been all but forgotten by history and remembered as nothing more than a bad dream.
And as far as my posts go, part of my job in addition to providing background programming into HAL 9000 has been to repeatedly say and write, Eric Marsh killed his crew, Eric Marsh killed his crew, Eric Marsh killed his crew because I am off the rez and I am never going back.
And as a retired pensioner who doesn’t have much of anything else except for some old and Blue Book valueless vehicles, I am immune to lawsuits because in this country and as part of our social safety net (SOCIALISM) that I’m pretty sure the Republican Party would like to eliminate, pensions are protected by federal law from everything except you know…the IRS, and nobody and nothing is safe from them.
But…I really do need to continue with my “time out” because I have backslid in recent days because of how the most powerful and richest nation in the history of the world, is treating the weakest and most vulnerable among us IN VIOLATION OF US LAW, and as an Eagle Scout, who was taught that the world is black and white, there are good guys and bad guys, I just can’t accept that as SOP, even though I know it was all a big lie and the world is made up of nothing but grey shadows and right and wrong isn’t absolute as Fred and I were both taught as Eagle Scouts…it is situational and negotiable. And ever since President Aberration was elected…transactional, very, very, very…TRANSACTIONAL.
But…I’m irritating everyone now, so I need to go stand in the corner for some time, but I keep reading even when I am in my corner with my nose touching the wall..you know…to stay up to speed because I irritate even those people I don’t usually irritate when I get like this.
So I do need to keep going with my “time out.” Plus…I really need to spend some quality time working on my magnificent tome, that will without a doubt, be the greatest book ever written about WLF in general and hotshots in particular in the history of the world! Hotshot hubris? Check…still got it.
Plus…this is working out really well so far, your questions are prompting HAL 9000 to regurgitate and give us “Executive Summaries” to remind us of where we have been, where we are now, and where we still still need to go.
For example, I had the circumstances surrounding the radio transmissions between Steed and Marsh more or less correct, but I had Andrew Ashcraft spitting in disgust and disrespecting Marsh in front of the entire crew and apparently it was (oh darn, I hope I haven’t already forgotten) Christopher MacKenzie?
No matter…because it is all here, everything is here for everyone to read and evaluate for themselves forever (more or less) thanks to JD (as you recently pointed out) as part of his (and our) Grand Social Experiment of Crowd Sourcing a Serious Accident Investigation for the very first time in history since the internet and social media hadn’t come of age yet the last time this happened, which was after the South Canyon Fire of 1994 on Storm King Mountain.
I know one thing for sure, we are driving THEM crazy. Nothing had prepared them for this onslaught of true seekers in a world they were so used to controlling every aspect of, but have now lost total control over. I promise you this blog will be on everyone who has anything to do with investigating the next disaster because they aren’t going to want to go down in WLF history like Dudley, Legarza and others have. This social experiment blindsided them with a ferocity and relentlessness they could never have imagined. And now…THEY JUST CAN’T MAKE IT STOP, because they are powerless when confronted by. “WE…THE PEOPLE!
Just don’t forget how HAL 9000 told you to search, otherwise you will drive yourself insane looking for certain posts on specific topics. That is what happened to me…I wasn’t insane before I started searching for specific posts on this thread but now I’m pretty far gone. You know…because some very thoughtless people have loaded this thread up with unrelated, although at times…interesting other “issues.”
But…to our detractors, I would say that aspect of our social experiment is why we are a vibrant, alive and still functioning community six years later, whereas as boring competitor who controlled the content placed on his blog like the Soup Nazi controlled who got his soup, ceased to be relevant years ago…if he ever was.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7WRxEY8o3kc
Oh…and one more thing. During my 30 years on the job, I had a lot of nicknames, most of which I can’t list because I am am trying to clean up my potty mouth.
But one of them was , “THE JACKHAMMER”, which was given to me by co-workers, subordinates and supervisors at one point in New Mexico because I would frustrate them by not letting things go.
And they would say, “Can’t you just let it go for once?” Whatever “it” was. So they used the term in a way with was implicitly negative, but I always thought it was a good thing.
And that is what this thread has become to THEM…The Jackhammer Blog that they can’t make stop. And the next Dudley, whoever that might be, he or she is going to think twice before lying and running a con job for MONEY and promotions for the agencies because we are setting the new standard for the consequences of doing just that, because they are finally paying a price.
This is…interesting. Because there are two officially government supported enemies of the truth about what happened on the YHF Disaster, the agencies themselves and this…bunch. This “bunch”, through a tax free foundation.
https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/displayAll.do?dispatchMethod=displayAllInfo&Id=4992254&ein=465441458&country=US&deductibility=all&dispatchMethod=searchAll&isDescending=false&city=&ein1=&postDateFrom=&exemptTypeCode=al&submitName=Search&sortColumn=orgName&totalResults=2&names=Eric+marsh+foundation&resultsPerPage=25&indexOfFirstRow=0&postDateTo=&state=All+StatesI
Gary–you have talked a lot about those flimsy blankets but I think with the GMHS crew they did not know much about those things and might have believed they would actually save them in a manzanita fire. Ironicallly the blankets that they thought were life savers might have actually caused their deaths.
The idea would be that Steed objected to doing the unthinkable but he might have thought what the hell we have these fire blankets if we get caught so lets do it.
A great point Charlie, it gave them a false sense of security, and increased their willingness to take risk… as if they needed one!
Harold,
Correct! And…for some crews, it has been a sort of “badge of honor” to be survivors of a shelter deployment. There was an absolutely 100% enormous level of pressure on Crew7 to “prove themselves” to the rest of the hotshot community. There is this phenomenon literally all over written documents. Some of this was self-imposed and some legit due to their unorthodox roots.
Woodsman,
Citing from the GMHS borrowed motto of “Esse Quam Videri” meaning to be, rather than be seen, which by the way is the North Carolina State Motto.
This is in the borrowed GMHS motto that may support what you’re saying her:
“We will exceed our perceived limits of what we can endure to tie in a piece of line, complete a hike, or catch a spot.”
Which more or less matches the common GMHS refrain of “we’re Granite Mountain and we (think / thought we) can / could pull it off.”
Unfortunately this behavior was enabled by others by failing to face the issues head on & demand something be done to change it. Demand it! Nothing was done about it before they killed themselves probably with “a little help from their friends.”
I know there was some close calls, as recent as 2012, but had there ever been a previous deployment by GMHS?
Reply to Harold post on July 2, 2019 at 1:51 pm
>> Harold asked…
>>
>> I know there was some close
>> calls, as recent as 2012,
>> but had there ever been a
>> previous deployment by GMHS?
The short answer is “Maybe”.
See a longer explanation up above in the following new ‘top-level’ comment…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479727
6 long painful years and still very little truths released..
Mind baffling
Here is something even more mind baffling Rock Steady and anonymous email sent me:
“Six years ago, as the hours tick by… the 1st indication, that the “status quo estimate” of Russ Schumate (“fire had stopped moving, very little smoke left on it”) was going to be drastically altered… was, duly, observed by 945*AZ-Jun13 and the ORANGE GORILLA “Ignition Event” was initiated. It was in full flame, by the time 1055*AZ and the “human-re- caused” YHF catastrophic clock began it’s destructive and irreversible countdown! WOODBURY-2019 = YHF-2013 ???”
There are eyes in the skies these days–very difficult to hide your actions especially in a wild land fire event–someone is looking and recording actions from above and it is more than just the heavenly gods.
I would say it is getting harder and harder to seduce the public, et. al. with your narrative of events that does not match the recordings.
I had been doing some thinking–one thing it might be 19 years before the full admissions come out–by that time many of the young kids that lost a Dad will be fuming and as good as most are at the computer, they will be getting to the bottom of things.
On another train of though it seems more plausible that Eric Marsh had an alien implant controlling his behavior than God directing he and his crew to their demise because he had other plans for them.. Fires on other planets? I came across a documentary titled “Patient 17” by Dr. Roger Leer MD that has an interesting twist to it. I am very familiar with the elements and complex combination of the object they analyzed. Also i have done much study on meteorites and given the lab results were correct then that fellow had something in him not of this galaxy even. Isotopes of Zn do not occur in our galaxy and the complex mixture of elements that were giving off electromagnetic radiation are not humanly possible to make here on earth at least.
Some strange things–maybe Marsh has a way out after all–kind of like the Devil made do it and he really did.
Some of those isotopes ie Zn 64 would not be of this galaxy. Just I seldom proof read but when I do I see a few mistakes.
To make things clear, Sonny, Tex Gilligan would likely never have been involved in the Yarnell incident had it not been for Joy. For certain I would have never gotten up at 3am to tackle a hike through manzanita in pitch dark. Joy woke me up and was already packing for that hike and said are you going. I tried my best to talk her out of it but she said well see you later then.
We had attempted to hike to the fire edge the day before but had started too late and with no flash light and a chance encounter with a bear had to turn back. We had hiked as I now remember some 50 miles only a couple days before so it was somewhat of a recooperati0on time for us. But Joy was adamant and you do not want someone hiking through the Manzanita in the early hours or for that matter anytime alone–especially your hiking partner.
I thought I was through with boot camp ordeals after I graduated Army boot camp way back in 1967. But now it was Indiana Jones time where you find yourself crawling under Manzanita being eyeball to eyeball with real live rattlesnakes–the green mohave that I have known men who died in less than 7 minutes from one of their strikes (Deer Creak, AZ) where and when I had a fire agate mine. And June early morning is one of their favorite times to be waiting outside for a mouse and will strike anything that threatens them. The smaller ones are the most aggressive and are just as deadly as the older variety if not more since the older ones often strike but hold back venom if it is not prey. Add to that the scorpions and black widows and you have a lot of possibilities to entertains some miseries.
I think we had a dim flashlight to add to the situation–but somehow through the brush and over boulders–her way–we did arrive alive and well at the two track then finally by following the ever fit and fast Eric Marsh did visit the fire edge–or at least within 50 yards.
So fate or not I did get involved–and could not help it after being up there and watching all the action with views all exactly as the GMHS crew were entertaining the fire. We were some ahead of them on the two track but I think they never noticed us since they were doing their thing as fire fighters.
The post I was sent and posted just before this is quite true since we did see the flare ups at those times–and almost at the same time I said we have got to get the hell out of here–and that did not mean getting back down into that trap and death site of the men that we had been to early that morning and now were looking down from where the men would soon follow our tracks then descend instead of ascend to safe ground just over the rise.
They had air support and would have known the terrain–we did not–but I knew the other side had very little vegetation and a boulder field for some hope of getting back down to level ground in case the fire turned–and I already knew it was because I had felt it on top of the Weavers and having lived in tents and outdoor so much knew also our time was limited in getting out of there. Joy will tell you I was threatening to leave her and pointing out body bags under copters going over–they were copters with bladders but looked like body bags. I was in high Adrenalin state and it turned out I was correct–we were fortunate to escape by ten minutes not being trapped on the west mesa from Glen Isla with only ten minutes if that much to spare. Both of us were down with heat stroke setting in and desperately needed to spend time in the shade to cool down and rest but along last we began encouraging each other to keep moving.
So Joy deserves all the credit she was the brains, photographer, investigator and now fire person of interest. Today I am not even the brawn but I will continue to support her and those that are seeking the truth. Most of those kids were very young that lost their Dad, some I think not even born–but in 13 more years and 19 after the 19 some will be coming at the truth with a vengeance Maybe those here on IM will have most of the answers for them by the time they will have to know.
My appreciation to all of you–I do know the horror of loosing a son. I can only imagine the loss of a father–something as a child I know would have been a horror. Fortunately my folks lived a long marriage of 50 years though my Dad passed at 73 and my mom some 15 years later in her late 60’s.
Doing a master’s thesis can be quite arduous. But having worked several months typing and saving it on a computer then having it disappear in a flash right before your eyes can make you loose your cool damn near as fast as you saw it disappear. Those old computers (that was called a word processor) .were not nearly as dependable as things are today.
I was thinking of Harold and how patient he was to continue his efforts to get things working here on IM. If patience is a virtue you will get it here and you best copy and paste something you write and think might be of value perhaps on an e mail and send it to your self or use some other system to protect your efforts. I am certain WTKTT has some better suggestions, but that is sometimes my method but for some reason most of us have written things here only to have them lost–can be a sinking feeling.
I have not heard from Dan in Oregon and I wondered if he had gone to Washington with evidence he had in hand or if Joy was going to be in on that particular situation. There are others out there that people are not aware of working on getting things ironed out–real people unhappy with the way not only the Yarnell incident was handled and then falsely presented–so thanks to those persons also. I know that lots do read the IM posts but hold back from commenting here.
Whether you agree or disagree with posts here, it is safe to post–a good challenge is always welcome as is more evidence supporting the ideas presented here. And if you should have reason to, it is fine to write anonymously.
For instance some are not sure if WTKTT is an Irish computer or a real live human. We suspect the latter but with his abilities we are not completely convinced. Another computer or not is always welcome–hard drives have greatly improved since the SSD versions are out–much faster and has cut my cursing down much. Also reverting back to Linux has helped–the new version of Linux called Linux Mint is some more like Windows than Ubuntu and a pleasure to use compared to Windows–free and takes away the problems I had with Windows 10. Somehow I had thought I needed Windows since a few programs will not function on Linux but now the people in Linux have worked around just about all the snags and with a little savvy you can have both worlds–this particular hard drive is only Linux and I am quite content with only it. And you likely know all this better than I–but perhaps a few do not. Joy says she is going to try Linux soon.
Yes Charlie, I learned the hard way, now for my longer posts I type them up in a saveable document on the computer, and then copy them here. That way I still have my own original, in case I have to do it again.
Another great Canadian Friend checking in!
I wanted to do something to mark the day, but I couldn’t decide what to do. So…I just started experimenting with some ideas this morning because I like to express myself using my website and this is what I finally came up with.
I tried to keep it simple and heartfelt. “Hike Towards The Light”
Soldiers march, smokejumpers amble, and everyone else…walks. Hotshots hike. Or in the “parlance of our times”, hump it up the mountain.
http://ourfiregods.com/
This in my “Home Page” for right now, but I will change it back tomorrow, because I’m pretty sure everyone wants access to my site 24/7.
Sonny, we were just getting done with our argument at this time six years ago were you wanted to bear wallow up to the two track and I wanted to stay low and scale boulders at the base and you normally do not listen to me but it was too early for you so you did for that point of our travels..at 6:38am I had called my mother that day so that helped “time-stamp” our locations for that day since the camera metadata would not work due to prior fall down a mine shaft.
Sonny, may you have a blessed day.
I am headed to a GMHS event where I am wanted versus not wanted in recent weeks…sad though they have that view on me…
Have fun with the dogs there, Sonny- they sure are growing up fast.
I am in so much pain from the 2 current kidney stones…
well, I hope to see Kayiden when in Prescott- that is recent graduate of the Arizona Wildfire Academy-
who works at Rickety Cricket Brewing Tap Room 214 S Montezuma St, Prescott, AZ 86303.
Yes, I remember you calling your mom–and we did have a disagreement at spot the men would later die. Instead of the bear wallow up to the two track, we went your way–the bear wallow about a mile longer but we did not have the steep uphill climb we would have had at the end of that box canyon to the two track. We did come out where the two track went from sloping to steep where we met Eric Marsh and then followed him up–was that about 9:30 am. I think your way was perhaps some better since we went downhill then around that North ridge of the death canyon the up the sloping canyon on the north side of that ridge to get to the two track yet still we were on our bellies a lot like soldiers in boot camp. So I remember you talking to your mom on the cell phone-New Jersey or Delaware? That time should have adjusted your camera to the true time and I was thinking it was a bit after we talked to Marsh when you called her. I know you have these things recorded and in your head as well. Let me know that time you called.
Joy, you will never change the minds of some that supped with Eric Marsh. You and I became enemy number 1 once they found that we had challenged the cover story the fire gods had concocted about the deaths of the GMHS crew. You had found yourself in court with Amanda charging you with annoying her with Mr. Darrell Willis as her key witness. He after cancelled his hike with you up to the site and that Judge went along with the lies knowing damn well that case should have been dismissed as frivolous from the get go. But he is part of that cartel and they all are chums playing the drums of deceit. Not a healthy town for folks that do not go along with the Amanda, Sait ,and Sair make believe reports.
But some of the people are not fooled nor willing to lay down when so many lives were taken due to negligence and willful and needless risk of young wild land fire fighter lives.
A lot of folks want to believe those reports because they are made by officials who they believe are infallible. But because we had been there and witnessed the situation and had photographic proof of conditions we could not back down for anyone. Looking at redactions, removal of key video clips, and even the taking back of documents ascribing that area by Helms where the men died as off limits and of the highest fire danger two weeks before the fire smelled of chicanery. When Willis testified with so many strange statements we knew something was up.
Still the public and many of the locals wanted to buy the stories put out by the powers involved in the Yarnell incident. People are so gullible when it comes to believing officials. They are not apt to question the facts–just say well if the officials say it was that way then it must be right. To give an example, there were 14 individuals on the Illinois death row that by DNA were proven to be innocent. Illinois did away with the death penalty after that was known.
A system can become broken and some in it can become convinced of their own bull shit. A garden needs weeding now and then–I know I had to do some in mine this morning.
**
** ANOTHER GM NEAR-ENTRAPMENT HAPPENED IN NEVADA, IN 2012?
Before we get too far away from the “Student of Fire” article and comments, there was one other public comment made on his “Road Trip to Yarnell” article that is worthy of mention.
In one of the 19 comments, a firefighter named Chris Desrosiers posted a comment saying he actually did ‘fill in’ work on the Granite Mountain IHC crew in the 2012, the season before the tragedy.
Here are the links ( again ) to the “Student of Fire” article…
Student of Fire
On The Road: Yarnell
Published: January 18, 2017 by studentoffire – 19 Comments
http://studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell/
And again… here is a link to a PERMANENT copy of this ‘Yarnell Road Trip’ report
saved in the “Internet Archive” ( Wayback Machine ).
https://web.archive.org/web/20190623235752/http://studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell/
Arizona firefigheter Chris Desrosiers posted his comment on January 21, 2017 at 5:40 pm, and in an some offhand comments in that posting he said ( among other things ) the following…
——————————————————————————————————
I filled in with Granite Mtn in 2012. I was a volunteer and wildland team member with Groom Creek Fire Dist. I was by no means a hotshot in my third fire season at age 43!! Eric an the guys called me OMC, Old man Chris! I never felt unsafe even when we were almost overrun on a fire in Nevada!
——————————————————————————————————
Desrosiers said…
“I never felt unsafe even when we were almost overrun on a fire in Nevada!“
This does NOT appear to be a reference to that OTHER ( known ) near-entrapment of Granite Mountain that was mentioned extensively in the 2013 ‘job interview’ transcripts, when a new ‘squad boss’ was being chosen.
Desrosiers’ comment seems to indicate that the Nevada, 2012 incident that HE was a part of is yet ANOTHER instance of a near-entrapment of Granite Mountain… and this one just the season before the 2013 Yarnell tragedy.
Crew dispatch records for Granite Mountain only indicate them being dispatched to Nevada for ONE fire in 2012… arriving there on August 2, 2012.
That was the 2012 “Holloway Fore”… Incident number: NV-WND-020210 /P HOLLOWAY FIRE.
Granite Mountain was assigned to that fire in Nevada for 17 days, from 08/02/2012 to 08/19/2019
Whoops… brain ( and date ) fart up above.
Last date should have been ‘2012’ and not ‘2019’…
Granite Mountain was assigned to that ( Holloway ) fire in Nevada for 17 days, from 08/02/2012 to 08/19/2012
Went back there about the Nevada fire. I had left a couple posts recommending a visit to IM and how people here had supported what Student of Fire had surmised about the Yarnell Fire–they disappeared, guess my citizen ideas are not welcome there.
WTKTT,
Thank you for bringing this forward.
This 2012 incident that he is talking about in Nevada must be the same Holloway Fire or what they referred to as the “Nevada Fire.”
This was the incident referred to in the Public Records for the GMHS Squad Boss interview.
And then, at the 2016 AZ Wildfire Academy, a self-proclaimed (and verified) former GMHS (2011-2013) who was on the same Holloway Fire, likely prior to the incident just mentioned, recounted this story.
There was an earlier incident on the same fire in 2012 when the GMHS was told by the IMT to “Line Spike” and be ready to go with Nomex and boots on when sleeping.
They were asleep and Acting Supt. Steed woke up in the middle of the night and observed a glow in the distance, discounted it, and went back to sleep. He awoke sometime later with fire right upon them, and they quickly fired out around themselves and their buggies, and everything was fine.
So then, this would square with the one former 2012 GMHS “filler” Chris Desrosiers posted on the Student of Fire comments
You’re talking about former GM Hotshot and Eric Marsh Foundation volunteer Eric Naumetz, yes?
Here is that original post about this you made back in Chapter XIX ( 19 )…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329032
—————————————————————————————-
On March 18, 2016 at 2:49 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
Some clarity and confirmation about the GMHS ‘Nevada Fire’ discussed during the ‘Squad Boss interviews’ when used as an example of good leadership by all four candidates. The ‘Nevada Fire’ was actually the 2012 Holloway Fire in Nevada and Oregon (according to those in the know) where the Zuni HS Crewmember (filler) deployed her fire shelter and survived with minor burns in spite of odds against such an outcome.
Initially, it was stated (paraphrasing) that the fire suddenly appeared and they had no Safety Zone and it threatened their Crew Carriers and they fired out around themselves and ‘it all worked out.’
According to former GMHS Eric Naumetz (2011-2013) and an Eric Marsh Foundation for WFF’s ‘volunteer’ at the 2016 AZ Wildfire Academy, what occurred was slightly different based on his recollection of the event.
According to former GMHS Naumetz, the fire had been burning very actively for several days and nights, and so the Crews spiked out on the firelines were advised/warned by the IMT to bed down wearing their Nomex PPE.
According to former GMHS Naumetz, the FIRST that night or early morning fire activity occurrence that threatened them resulted when the main fire advanced on the GMHS location and Foreman Jesse Steed happened to wake up and/or be awake to notice it and realize it was not really a threat and went back to sleep.
According to former GMHS Naumetz, the SECOND time Steed noticed the night or early morning fire activity was more intense and much closer. Steed quickly mustered the GMHS and they had to fire out around themselves and their Crew Carriers. So, ‘it all worked out in the end’ as stated in the ‘Squad Boss interviews.’
So then, this is at least as LITTLE bit better than the original inference drawn from reading the ‘Squad Boss interview’ notes where the fire suddenly appeared without warning – even though it kinda did do just that.
So, it APPEARS that the GMHS did NOT have a designated Lookout awake during the nighttime or early morning hours to watch out for, notice, and alert the Crew about active fire behavior threatening their position and their Crew Carriers.
This kinda follows in the pattern of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
—————————————————————————————-
This ‘story’ still doesn’t match what was being said by various crew members during their 2013 job interviews for the open “squad boss” position.
Many of THOSE stories involved RUNNING and having to ‘traverse drainages’ in order to GET to the place where they would then ‘burn out around themselves’ to survive… and how they had to “keep their heads” to survive the situation.
That was the very reason they seemed to all be mentioning it during the job interview(s) in 2013. They felt the fact that they “kept their cool” and “kept their heads” during the incident proved they were ‘management material’ and should get the open “squad boss” position.
So I wonder if some of those GM crew members were just “making shit up” during their job interviews, then?
Or could they have been talking about even ANOTHER close-call for GM on the SAME damn fire they were assigned to for 17 days?
Followup…
Some clarification as to why I’m still not sure how MANY ‘near-entrapment’ incidents for GM we might now be looking at on the SAME FIRE ( the 2012 Holloway fire in Nevada ).
In March of 2013, and just before the time GM needed to be ‘recertified’ as a full Type 1 IHC crew for the 2013 season… long-time GM squad leader Philip Maldonado took another job with the Prescott Solid Waste Division, and was leaving the crew. That opened up a ‘Squad Boss’ position on the GM roster that had to be filled immediately.
The ‘interview’ process was set up quickly, and FOUR current GM crew members were now ‘in the hopper’ to the now-open ‘Squad Boss’ position.
The following PUBLIC document contains all the emails, documents and the actual interview notes for this new ‘Squad Boss’ selection process…
It was originally referenced in some ‘Prescott News’ publisehd articles is still available at the following public, unrestricted link…
https://web.archive.org/web/20151031112325/http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/GMHS1.pdf
According to ALL of the ‘interview notes’ taken together about the Nevada incident we have Granite Mountain Hotshots Andrew Ashcraft, Clayton Whitted and Travis Turbyfill all reporting about something that happened in Nevada involving all of the following…
THE GM 2012 NEVADA INCIDENT
————————————————————————————
Line work being done.
Dozer-line involved.
Buggies threatened.
Fire suddenly ( and unexpectedly) cresting ridge(s).
Whitted and Ashcraft RUNNING.
Drainage(s) involved.
Safety Zone BURNOUT.
Ashcraft proud he ‘kept a cool head’
Ashcraft really glad it “All worked OK in the end”.
———————————————————————————-
NOTE: The only page of ‘interview notes’ from all FOUR of the ‘Recruitment Committee’ members that seems to be MISSING from this document would be the page of notes taken by Eric Marsh when the interviewee was GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell. ALL other interview note pages are there.
The ‘combined’ interview notes do NOT seem to indicate this was just some run-of-the-mill safety area burnout under fully controlled circumstances.
On the contrary.
The ‘combined’ interview notes seem to indicate the Nevada incident was…
Something ‘scary’ ( that required keeping a ‘cool head’ ).
Something ‘unexpected’ ( to have involved people ‘RUNNING’ ).
Something ‘underestimated’ ( to have to burn out a Safety Zone’ ).
Something ‘lucky’ ( to be glad it “Worked out OK in the end’ ).
And NONE of the candidates for the ‘Squad Boss’ position mentions ANYTHING about the Nevada ( Holloway Fire ) incident involving ‘being asleep’ ( without having any lookout in place like they should have ) or ‘awakening’ to an emergency situation.
The incident that the job interview candidates ALL seemed to be talking about was a ‘line building’ ( Dozer line ) operation that suddenly went to crazy town and THEN involved a lot of RUNNING and ‘traversing drainages’ and only THEN reaching a ‘Safety Zone’ which still needed to then be ‘burned out’.
And ALL of the ‘Squad Boss’ candidates were using this ‘story’ in their job interviews to tout how they had “kept their heads” in this emergency and were demonstrating good ‘management material’ attributes that would qualify them for Maldonado’s ‘Squad Boss’ job.
ALL of the candidates were ‘reflecting’ the same recollections of this Nevada ‘incident’… so it is assumed THEY were all talking about the SAME Nevada ‘incident’… but is this really the same one that was nothing more than GM not setting any lookouts while they were sleeping and then Jesse Steed ‘woke up’ and the fire had ‘crept up’ on them?
Chris Desrosiers report about a near-entrapment on this Nevada / Holloway fire could actually support EITHER story… since he said so little to say about it… but there’s no doubt that his comment supports at least ONE of the ‘stories’ and verifies at least ONE ‘incident’ in Nevada.
But does the above come anywhere near matching what former GM Hotshot Eric Naumetz said?
The GM ‘Squad Boss’ interviewees seem to be describing a totally different ‘near-entrapment’ incident ( on the same Nevada / Holloway fire ) that Eric Naumetz is describing.
Thus… my confusion.
How MANY near-entrapments did GM experience on this ONE 17 day assignment?
One? Two? More?
WTKTT,
Yes, I was talking about former GM Hotshot and Eric Marsh Foundation volunteer Eric Naumetz above.
I recall another time when I heard more about the 2012 Holloway Fire when I went to a fire in Nevada in 2016 and worked with several Federal, State, Municipal, and contract WFs and FFs, including Dozer operators and Dozer Bosses (DOZB) and / or Heavy Equipment Bosses (HEQB) as well as overhead supervisors (DIVS) that were on the Holloway Fire that had worked with the GMHS and recalled one time in particular.
They all talked about the Holloway Fire fuels being heavy grass and sagebrush and the terrain consisting of deep, steep canyons that funneled the winds. These features are visible in the Vimeo video of the contract Engine Crew saving the GMHS Crew Carriers.
On the 2012 Holloway Fire in NV, their Crew Carriers, visibly parked in the unburned minus drivers, were saved by an OR Contract Engine Crew in this VIMEO video, long-removed from the website ( http://vimeo.com/48411010 ).
From 2:41 to 3:05, the nozzleman pans left, so notice a handline on the hillside. Freeze-frame the video and you will notice a GMHS black helmeted WF (lookout?) running downhill. This was the second of three times another Crew had to “save” their Crew carriers.
Additionally, this was the second time someone else had to “save” the GMHS Crew Carriers. The first time was on the 2011 Sunflower Fire on the TNF when the GMHS ignored the Prescott HS warning about their Crew Carriers parked above a bowl that was heating up. The third time, of course, was on the YH Fire when the BRHS accomplished that task.
Back to their assignment … Due to the increased fire behavior potential that the locals knew would occur, they cautioned the GMHS to go indirect on a particular piece of fireline. However, classic GMHS, they discounted their local knowledge advice and decided to go direct instead. Imagine that.
All the overhead and dozers and such said that they left the area and then “reconsidered” shortly afterwards because they knew GMHS was going to be “committed” and may need their help if things went sideways.
As the locals predicted (and knew would occur), the fire picked up intensity and drove the GMHS out.
These local WFs, FFs, and overhead chastised them for not heeding their advice and said something to the effect of “why didn’t you listen to us, we told you that was going to happen.”
And what was the GMHS response? You guessed it … the 2012 Holloway version of “we’re the GMHS and we thought we could pull it off.”
The whole point of Watch Out #4 “Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior” is to seek out and then heed “local knowledge.”
The Holloway Fire, in many way was the consummate “steady drift into failure” based on all WTKTT posted, which also included the Zuni HS “filler” fire shelter deployment. This incident amazed everyone there that she fared as well as she did considering the fuels and fire behavior.
I also believe that it was this fire shelter deployment was one of the many things that convinced the GMHS to deploy their fire shelters where and when they did on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, on the YH Fire.
Go to the WLFLLC and look up the Holloway Fire report and this is what you will find:
Holloway Fire Entrapment (2012)
Incident Date: 8/12/2012
[State]: Oregon
[Date]: 08/12/2012
[Incident Type]: Entrapment
#Oregon #BurnInjury #HandCrews #Firing #Entrapment
Attachment(s) pdf file
Holloway_Fire_Accident_Investigation.pdf 5.16MB 1 version
Uploaded – 08-12-2012
Examine the photos of the actual deployment site and note the parallels to the YH Fire deployment site. The main difference was the ferocity of the fire behavior on June 30, 2013, that slicked the heavy fuels down to the nubs.
I am the person who recorded the 2012 Holloway Fire in Nevada when GMIH buggies were saved. They were located/working up the hill building handline and putting out spots with a helicopter. Marsh was acting DIV and managing other resources. After saving their buggies (what is caught on film), we were asked to bed down for the night (spike out) on the line and GM, as hotshots tend to do, went off and bedded down by themselves. They didn’t bed down in the green watered pasture with the other resources but instead in dry grass and had to wake up to fire out around themselves during the night.
That’s two incidents within a 24 hour period that I personally saw on the Holloway Fire in 2012.
Method,
Thank you very much for that. All of this is extremely important!
Method,
In your opinion, what do you believe was the reasoning behind them not choosing a safer place to bed down? Thanks!
Reply to Methods post on July 2, 2019 at 11:55 am
>> Methods said…
>>
>> That’s two incidents within a 24 hour period that
>> I personally saw on the Holloway Fire in 2012.
Thank you for posting!
One of the things we’ve been scratching out heads about here for some time now is that there appears to have been a THIRD ‘incident’ involving Granite Mountain on that same 2012 Holloway fire.
Just before the start of their 2013 season ( which would become their last season ), one of GM’s Squad Bosses suddenly took another job and GM had to quickly fill that position.
FOUR current GM came under consideration for that open ‘Squad Boss’ position and then went through a standard City of Prescott Human Resources ‘job interview’ process.
All the documents associated with those interviews are still sitting online a the following PUBLIC link…
https://web.archive.org/web/20151031112325/http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/GMHS1.pdf
In those ‘job interviews’… ALL FOUR of the GM crew members talked about an ‘incident’ on the same 2012 Holloway Fire that involved suddenly having to RUN, and traverse drainages, and then ARRIVE at a Safety Zone and THEN still needing to ‘burn it out’, apparently to protect themselves AND their vehicles.
ALL of the candidates told the job interviewers that the fact that they were able to “keep their heads” during this Holloway Fire incident should count towards them being considered for the open ‘Squad Boss’ position.
Does that ‘ring any bells’ with you?
The ‘incident’ at the 2012 Holloway fire that ALL of the GM Squad Boss candidates were mentioning does NOT sound like the same ‘incident’ were they simply ‘woke up’ and had to burn out around themselves.
So we’ve been wondering if there were actually THREE ( separate ) ‘incidents’ involving Granite Mountain at this one single 2012 Holloway Fire.
Anything you might be able to remember might help clear this up.
Thanks in advance.
Method,
Thank you for posting and filling in some details on the GMHS and their several 2012 Holloway Fire debacles, including the one where they were line spiked without a lookout, a classic GMHS practice.
And yes sir, you guys definitely “saved the Granite Mt. Hotshot buggies from burning up!”
That is funny the way Chris Derosiers said he never felt unsafe even when the fire nearly overran them. Marsh was the DaddyO and had everyone believing in him. He definitely was a nice guy but there is no big demand for nice guys that are going to kill you.
I do have to say if I were to be a fire fighter I would have to be the boss of the crew. Eric Marsh gave me a good indication that you might just wind up under a killer boss if you are the grunt. He knows the situation, has all the contacts, knows where the fire is and who else is doing burn outs, knows the weather situation being called in every so often, what the terrain and fire conditions are and yet still might just drop you off into a box canyon with wind conditions about to violently reverse its direction toward you in the most dehydrated and dense vegetation that burns hotter than oil. You being the grunt do not know all these things and your boss being the intelligent and silent type is not about to inform you. You are fucked cause you have no clue this guy is about to kill you. Shit, shit, shit!!!
The flags are waving and Danny boy you are gone, fed to the winds, a martyr to appease the fire fighter gods, a sacrifice as much as a man or maiden lain on an Aztec altar to have his/her heart cut out to appease Tlaltechutli if you could even pronounce this god’s name. But now many gods were appeased and as the man or maiden who had her/his heart cut out they became heros and martyrs to the cause. That fucking priest should have had his heart cut out but he like the modern day fire gods had everyone fooled with his line of shit and he would continue his mayhem because he had already impressed himself with his line of bull shit that nothing would change. It is hard to come down off that pinnacle when so many admire your god given presence–and if you screwed up and cut that poor victims liver out instead of his heart you never mentioned it to the masses–what difference did it make to them anyway.
Cowboy McKensie–where are you? You told those fellows not to get off into that manzanita with that fire anywhere near–You had ridden your horse and managed a ranch in that manzanita –that ranch even burned so you had no job after the fire. Yet you had sense enough to know better than get trapped and you got a kid saying those fire safety rules are hillbilly. You were right there, the hillbillies knew better than you how to use them and your as was dry grass had not Frisby came around to save you. And maybe the gods did save your ass so you could be a witness but you could not even be truthful there.
I do say I am glad Donut survived–he is young and was totally ignorant of the work he was actually involved with. He is fortunate Marsh did not kill him as well.
Young fire fighter be damn sure of your boss–better yet be the boss if you are competent enough and have the experience and will to keep the safety of your crew above your own desire to become known as the man who can.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/#comment-479478
Robert, thank you VERY much for asking this question. It forced me to go back and review what I said, and now I realize I have committed an egregious faux pas.
I stated “I began a search and quickly found the SAIT report, which left me totally unsatisfied, and I KNEW at that point there was a cover up.” (Emphasis added.)
I SHOULD have said “I began a search and quickly found the SAIT report, which left me totally unsatisfied, and I SUSPECTED at that point there was a cover up.”
I did not, in fact, know there was a cover up at that point. I had no evidence to base my opinion on, only my suspicions. I don’t know if this was an oversight on my part, or if I was simply grandstanding, but either way it is unacceptable.
Everything we say and do here ultimately reflects back on Mr. Dougherty and he, along with the rest of you, has worked very hard to keep this forum about the search for TRUTH. I broke the code, and I am very sorry for my blunder.
Your question deserves an answer, and I have been thinking about it constantly. I had hoped to do this all in one post, but I realize it is going to have to be done in stages. I went back and started going through the SAIR from the start, something I had planned on doing anyway, at some point, so I guess the time is now.
I had to try to get back into my frame of mind approximately six weeks ago, because that’s when I read the report, right after watching ‘Only the Brave’. In fact, the report was the very first thing I read after seeing the movie.
Since then, I have had another five weeks or so to be influenced by other sources of information, so I am finding it hard to go back now and say exactly what it was, at that time, that made me suspicious. I will do my best.
I didn’t get far today, but I came up with a couple points over breakfast. So here goes, from the SAIR report:
Pg 1, paragraph 2; ‘Responders saw minimal fire activity or spread potential…’ and then Pg 2, paragraph 2, bullet 2; ‘It was primed to burn because of extreme drought, decadent chaparral, and above average cured grass loadings.’
So, responders found minimal spread potential in an area that was primed to burn because of extreme drought, decadent chaparral, and above average cured grass loadings, and had not experienced wildfire in over 45 years. What am I missing here? …Suspicion #1.
Pg 1, last paragraph; ‘There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC. From 1604 until 1637, the Team cannot verify communications from the crew, and we have almost no direct information for them. There is much that cannot be known about the crew’s decisions and actions prior to their entrapment and fire shelter deployment at around 1642.’
I just found it hard to believe that a crew could be out of contact for 33 minutes, with a wildfire drastically changing it’s behaviour near their position, and yet the SAIT ultimately found no fault or error in that. That seems to me to be an awful long time to not know what those 19 men were doing, even IF they were safely in the black. I would think they would be constantly monitoring them. Either the hotshots were failing to communicate on purpose or were unable to because of faulty equipment, either way there’s something wrong here. …Suspicion #2.
That’s as far as I am at this point, I don’t know if that is what you were hoping for. I certainly don’t have a smoking gun to offer, but these are early examples of why I quickly became suspicious of a cover up.
These are only my opinions, and as I progress through the report, I will let you know of any other suspicions I had. I don’t know if there will be anything that hasn’t already been discussed, but you never know.
Harold,
Thank you for posting your reply to the SAIT-SAIR suspicions and such. No apologies necessary for your faux pax. It happens to all of us. Thanks for being forthright
For someone like yourself, and like so many others, with no clue about wildland firefighting, you nailed several key points right out the gate regarding the alleged communication gap and the SAIT conclusions of “no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol” on page 4 or 5.
Go to ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) for much more
Harold and Bill,
These are quotes from an SME and the SAIT-SAIR basically ensuring that we (the ignorant public) will never know the truth about the YH Fire
“We have so much evidence that we cannot and will not ever release” about the YH Fire and the GMHS. Highly experienced YH Fire Investigation Subject Matter Expert (August 2013)
“Because we do not know, and will never know, many of the precise details surrounding the final movements and motivations of the Granite Mountain IHC …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 45)
“Although we will never know for sure, we considered how the Granite Mountain IHC might have reasoned …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 47)
“Although we will never know the answer to this question, it is worth asking: …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 48)
“We will never know for sure, but we wondered whether the Granite Mountain IHC’s decision to hike through the green might have seemed to them to be a decision to operate in the green just like everyone else.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 52) (emphasis added)
“We will never know if the crew understood that this route of travel required that they sacrifice some of their capacity to serve as their own lookouts.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54)
“We will also never know if they understood the calculated risk involved in traversing the final distance to the Ranch without the level of situational awareness that a different vantage point might have afforded.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54)
Great observations Harold. And that is just the tip of the iceberg–but you might be about the one in a thousand that was wise enough to question the report at any level.
This Jun 27, 2019, article is by Firerescue.com author Bruce Hensler titled: “Yarnell Hill: The human factor” with the subtitle: “Six years later, experts are still contemplating the crew’s actions in the context of other major LODD events”
( https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighting-history/articles/394403018-yarnell-hill-the-human-factor/?utm_source=FireRescue1+Member+Newsletter&utm_campaign=68f9a0dd85-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_06_28_08_07&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_758bdbeffe-68f9a0dd85-41319703 )
Mr. Hensler has some creds and mostly in the municipal fire world and he is astute enough to pick up on some of the shortcomings of the YH Fire SAIT and SAIR, however, unfortunately, he dives right into what seems to come mostly from the SAIT-SAIR and regains traction by using some other select articles.
“The Yarnell Hill Fire is the third deadliest incident for wildland firefighters” and that “there were lessons learned that should have served future firefighters, including those who died at Mann Gulch, Inaja, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill. But as history shows, we routinely fail to learn those lessons.”
After mentioning Kyle Dickman’s Outside magazine article on the GMHS he posts: “While investigation reports tend to distill incident details down to the facts and figures, IT IS THE MORE ELUSIVE HUMAN FACTOR THAT IS PERHAPS MORE TELLING WHEN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND DECISION-MAKING – AND DETERMINE LESSONS LEARNED.”
All EMPHASIS is added by me in CAPS because I am still too unskilled at the and thing to have it be bold coherent
It appears that Dickman gets both the human factors and lessons learned aspects but when I read his article a few years ago, it seemed like he was taking a Party Liner stance. I may have to reread it.
HOTSHOW CREW DEPLOYMENT (look at and read carefully what the editors used as the section head. This is exactly how they published it.. Your mind will see “Hotshot” but that is not what it says)
The author discusses the AZ State Forestry and SWCC dispatch process and details of the GMHS and BRHS dispatch with the GMHS coming off of a hard 13-day stretch, and so likely unavailable, so SWCC dispatched the BRHS.
“Despite that assignment, dispatcher logs reveal an UNUSUAL EMAIL SENT DIRECTLY TO GMIH boss, Eric Marsh, requesting his crew the next morning. MARSH ACCEPTED DESPITE HIS CREW HAVING WORKED EXTENSIVELY OVER THE PREVIOUS 30 DAYS. THE RECORD IS UNCLEAR WHETHER HE WAS AWARE THAT [BRHS] HAD BEEN SUMMONED. In a Los Angeles Times interview, noted fire historian Stephen Pyne said, ‘THEY SELF-DEPLOYED ON AN EMAIL. NO ONE DOES THAT. NO ONE.’”
Granite Mountain was the nation’s only municipally funded hotshot crew; for them saving homes was important.
“Marsh was by all accounts highly qualified, respected, well-liked and notably driven. The area incident commanders were experienced. YET THE FIREFIGHT IS ONE OF MISSED OPPORTUNTIES, BUNGLED COMMUNICATIONS, AND THE SHEER POWER OF NATURE.”
“It is still unknown why the crew left a relatively safe area. Some think that they may have been trying to get closer to the vulnerable houses. Marsh’s motto was adopted by the GMIH: Esse Quam Videri, which translates as “to be, rather than to seem.” Marsh was mission-driven.”
Esse Quam Videri is a Latin term which means ‘to be, rather than to seem to be’. It means that it is better to be something instead of pretending to be something. This is also the state motto of North Carolina and GMHS Supt. Marsh was from NC. So then, why does he just disingenuously take credit for it without using due diligence and admitting where he got it from?
“No verified communications exist to inform us as to decisions made prior to entrapment.” It depends because there are scattered documented cases of others having and hearing the infamous GMHS McKenzie “discussing our options” video anywhere from 30 seconds to several minutes depending on the sources. There were LOTS of WFs and FFs that heard and recorded those discreet GMHS Crew Net radio transmissions that day.
THE PSYCHOLOGY OF DECISION-MAKING
Despite all the LESSONS LEARNED SHARED after other LODD incidents, we OFTEN FAIL AT LEARNING THEM. ARE THE LESSONS TOO DIFFICULT TO DIGEST BECAUSE THEY REQUIRE BEHAVIORAL CHANGE? Fires with LODDs are most likely to result in tangible change, like developing rules of engagement. BUT SAFETY RULES ARE NOTORIOUS FOR OPENING THE DOOR TO BLAME-SHIFTING.
Safety rules are NOT notorious for opening the door to blame-shifting. They are, and should be, notorious for opening the door to holding people accountable for their f**kups as in this case.
The families of deceased firefighters see ENGAGEMENT RULES, like the 10 STANDARD FIRE ORDERS, in the same light as do many firefighters, AS AN AVENUE TO BLAME THE FALLEN. EFFORTS TO TRANSLATE LESSONS LEARNED INTO SOMETHING TANGIBLE OFTEN RESULT IN MORE LAYERS OF CONFUSION, ADDING RULES, ACRONYMS, AND CATCH PHRASES.”
They are pretty darn simple to learn and memorize and understand and apply and they work every time! Surprisingly, there were no more layers of confusion, adding rules, acronyms and catch phrases, probably because it was an AZ State Forestry and not a USFS fire.
“Dr. Ted Putnam, … challenged the 10 Standard Orders in a 2001 paper titled, “Fire Safety: Up in Smoke?” His goal was exposing the truth about the real causes of wildland firefighter fatalities, injuries and near misses. His motivation was his own silence as well as that of other investigators IN THE FACE OF COVER-UPS OF DEADLY FIRES BY MANAGERS AND ADMINISTRATORS.”
It is definitely worth reading his “Up in Smoke” paper as well as his “Accidents, accident guides, stories, ad the truth” (2011) paper regarding the above.
“In Putnam’s view, the 10 Standard Orders equate to a zero-risk mentality, thus implying that if you want to be safe, then stay home. Putnam presents six statements for consideration:
< There is a lack of fire management support for human factors
< Safety is not No. 1
< NO ONE CAN FOLLOW THE 10 STANDARD ORDERS
< MOST WILDLAND FIRE ENTRAPMENT INVESTIGATIONS INVOLVE COVERING UP EVIDENCE
< ACTIVE CONCERN FOR SAFETY IS PUNISHED
< We are a long way from becoming a learning organization.”
"Read Putnam’s essay and think about Yarnell Hill.”
“That wasn’t the case at Yarnell Hill. Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots were a cohesive and supportive group. However, was Marsh too respected or members too trusting at the critical moment to question his leadership? We don’t know, but we might rely here on Putnam, who questioned the 10 Standing Orders.”
“Putnam believes wildland firefighters will continue to die as long as they fail to acknowledge and come to terms with certain realities by acknowledging the trap of a can-do spirit; unwise agency cost-control measures; image of self, crew and agency; AND THE RECURRING FAILURE TO LEARN FROM LESSONS.”
There is a link at the bottom left of the article for this report below on the SAIT-SAIR.
Adam K. Thiel September 30, 2013
"Read and learn from the Yarnell report"
“Those who never expect to face a wildland fire and even those outside the fire service SHOULD READ THIS REPORT, AS IT HAS SOMETHING TO TEACH US ALL”
( https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-training/articles/1575536-Read-and-learn-from-the-Yarnell-report/ )
“Like many other FireRescue1 readers, I've read a lot of after-action reports through the years. It's never an easy thing to do when firefighter fatalities or injuries are involved, but WE OWE IT TO OUR FALLEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS TO IDENTIFY ANY POSSIBLE LESSONS FROM THEIR EXPERIENCES, AND DO WHATEVER WE CAN TO PREVENT SUCH TRAGEDIES FROM OCCURRING IN THE FUTURE.”
“The SAIT-SAIR IS AN ESPECIALLY DIFFICULT READ.” This is an astute and accurate observation.
“Despite their well-documented training, experience, fitness, teamwork, and high degree of motivation, these courageous firefighters were LITERALLY OVERTAKEN BY THE CONFLUENCE OF MULTIPLE FACTORS OVER WHICH THEY GENERALLY HAD LIMITED CONTROL.”
Bullshit! They had FULL CONTROL of their actions all day long. And it was "52 minutes from blow-up to burnover" on the YH Fire on June 30, 2013. Plenty of time to make good decisions like everyone else on that fire seems to have done.
“[GMHS] — like their wildland, structural, and fellow firefighters everywhere — PLACED THEIR LIVES IN DANGER AS A RESULT OF PUBLIC POLICY DECISIONS MADE BY OTHERS, at multiple levels of government, LONG BEFORE THEY RECEIVED THE CALL AND RESPONDED TO THE [YH] FIRE from Prescott Station Seven.”
More Bullshit! They placed their lives, and the lives of those they were ultimately responsible for in their own hands. No one forced them to leave. No one held a gun to their heads, literally or figuratively. According to the record and to those that overheard this Crew Net discussion, DIVS A was quite forceful over the radio with Steed as DIVS A insisted they leave their Safety Zone and go down to the BSR.
See what I mean ….
Thanks for that. I was actually reading that article already at the same time your post appeared.
As has always been the case around the time of an anniversary of the 2013 Yarnell Tragedy, interesting articles and photographs and videos suddenly ‘appear’.
I agree with Hensler’s overall point that it does no good to identify or even SHARE any “lessons learned” if the industry that needs to LEARN them continually REFUSES to do so.
Fire Rescue Magazine
Article Title: Yarnell Hill: The human factor
Six years later, experts are still contemplating the crew’s actions
in the context of other major LODD events
Published: June 27, 2019 – By Brunce Hensler
https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighting-history/articles/394403018-Yarnell-Hill-The-human-factor/
From that article…
————————————————————————-
Dr. Ted Putnam, a psychologist with extensive wildland firefighting and investigation experience challenged the 10 Standard Orders in a 2001 paper titled, “Fire Safety: Up in Smoke?” His goal was exposing the truth about the real causes of wildland firefighter fatalities, injuries and near misses. His motivation was his own silence as well as that of other investigators in the face of cover-ups of deadly fires by managers and administrators.
Putnam believes wildland firefighters will continue to die as long as they FAIL to acknowledge and come to terms with certain realities by acknowledging the trap of a can-do spirit; unwise agency cost-control measures; image of self, crew and agency; and the recurring failure to LEARN from lessons.
————————————————————————————————–
To give you an idea how the Yarnell Cartel was trying to keep things covered up, when Dr. Ted Putnam decided he wanted to go to the site where the men died, all the official including the FS, Sheriff Department, and the Yarnell Fire Department refused to show him the way or introduce him to the site. I can’t remember how he located us but as soon as he did he was on his way. We of course had to skirt the ranch but knew the back way in and that went on for many people that could not even get permission to go in there. I suppose they finally gave up because people were going to go in despite all the efforts to keep them out. That is how Joy and I ended up hiking so many people into the area–and even at that there were threats from the Yarnell Fire Chief that we would be arrested if they caught us in there. They never did–but we were fully legal in those hikes and Joy would always ask the hikers to have an Arizona hiking permit. That permit itself is illegal in my way of thinking so I never got one, but found Joy had gotten me one anyway.
Since when has America gotten so low as to charge people to hike across public lands? Well most people did now know you have to have one and can get a hefty fine and even jail time if the judge happens to want to apply it. Arizona is the damndest police state in the Union and that is just one example of their antics and sets to show their incessant works at controlling people even to keeping them away from a death site that should have been available to all once they had their forensics finished. It now is on their terms with a FS guide that gives a line of crap to the public.
Still with Ted’s credentials (and others with similar experience) you would have thought they would have jumped at the opportunity to hike him in and get his take on things. But no–they had already put out their narrative of the events and wanted no challenges to how they wanted it publicized.
In the recently-published Deborah Pfingston and Doug Harwood PODCASTS, former Granite Mountain Hotshot ( and current Prescott Fire Department firefighter ) Doug Harwood admitted that even during that time when access to the entire area was highly ‘restricted’… he would go out to the deployment site many, many times… any damn time he wanted to… and bring along anyone he wanted to. He would just pull up somewhere on Sesame Street and ( in his words ) “start hopping fences”.
He didn’t even have a normal ‘hiking permit’ for State Lands, like Joy has always had.
So yea… it never mattered to the powers-that-be that people were just willy-nilly hiking out to the deployment site.
It mattered WHO it was.
That’s why Dr. Ted Putnam was given the run-around.
They did not WANT him to get anywhere near that site.
I suppose I am missing something–I really believe like Cowboy McKenzie as a boss I would have never even mentioned comfort level to drop off in that mazanita trap–Like McKensey I believe I should have said instead whatever you do keep your crew safe in the black–it is obvious that fire is a Big Dog and the wind will be coming furiously you way at any moment. The safety of even one of your crew is worth more that the whole town burning down.
But the fire fighter bosses know that a town like Yarnell will burn just as it did and statistics say it would. Those that had defensible space survived the best and according to just the way they would had no retardant been lain–an army of fire fighters were at the mercy of the Big Dog that day and even a hillbilly could see that.
Reply to Charlie post on June 29, 2019 at 8:26 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> The falsifying of time cards for more money– I believe that was
>> found on the Prescott FOIA’s if I remeber right — Some of the time
>> sheets were dated days the men were off and enjoying themselves
>> at one of the local Pubs, yet getting paid for it.
Minor correction. The evidence that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were falsifying their time sheets on the day before they died is based on HOURS WORKED, and not the DATE.
Granite Mountain WAS working an assignment on the Saturday before they died… and they WERE there… but they lied about when they actually got “off the clock”.
The Granite Mountain time sheet for Saturday, June 29, 2013 claimed an extra 3 hours of overtime work ( which was never actually performed ) for each and every crew member.
In total… that amounted to 60 hours of overtime work ( billable by the City of Prescott at upwards of $40 per hour ) that was never performed.
The time sheet that Granite Mountain turned in for their Saturdy, June 28, 2013 assignment listed that assignment as the “Mount Josh Fire”… and that SIGNED timesheet is publicly available at this link…
Granite Mountain Hotshots – Official Time Sheets for June 28, 29, 2013
http://media.phoenixnewtimes.com/9122596.0.pdf
The false time sheet submitted for the day before GM died was CONFIRMED by New York Times Correspondent Fernanda Santos in her book about the Yarnell Fire.
Back in Chapter 23 of this ongoing discussion…
** NEW YORK TIMES CORRESPONDENT FERNANDA SANTOS CONFIRMS
** THAT GRANITE MOUNTAIN WAS PADDING THEIR TIMESHEET(S) ON
** THE DAY BEFORE THEY DIED.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343753
Santos CONFIRMS, in her book, that the officially submitted timesheet for Granite Mountain on Saturday, June 29, 2013 had them all ‘on the clock’ and earning overtime pay until 10:30 PM that night.
But in the actual ‘narrative’ of her book… Santos also absolutely CONFIRMS that the entire Granite Mountain crew was NOT actually working until 10:30 PM on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013, as their official timesheet SAYS they were.
In her book, Santos verifies that Marsh was HOME and back in Prescott in time to have dinner with his wife BEFORE the first call came in ( to Marsh ) about Yarnell shortly before 8:00 PM, and that the other GM Hotshots had all also been ‘dismissed’ from the ‘Mount Josh’ assignment in the EARLY EVENING on Saturday and were all back HOME circa 7:30 to 8:00 PM… and that they were ALL told they had the next two days off before being ‘dismissed.
No one has taken a close enough look at ALL of the Granite Mountain billing records ( over the years ) to know whether this was just SOP for Granite Mountain… or whether it was an ‘anomaly’ and the false time sheet submitted the day before they died was the first time it ever happened.
Thanks for the correction WTKTT–I am not sure what Joy has to add to that–minor compared to the negligence causing those deaths however.
The “enjoying themselves at the local Pubs and getting paid for it” part was CORRECT… but only for Saturday NIGHT itself.
They HAD worked that day… and didn’t ‘take the whole DAY off’.
That’s the only part that needed to be corrected ‘for the record’.
I see we have a new chapter, I wasn’t here for the last one when it started. Do we make all our posts here now? Or do we still go back and answer on the last one as well? I left a couple of you hanging and would like to follow proper protocol, when I get a chance to respond. Thanks!
Usually goes to about 2000 Harold before the new chapter–your choice but usually better here.
Once a new chapter starts… yes… there is some ‘overlap’.
You can still ‘Reply’ to any outstanding comments over in the previous chapter. It doesn’t ‘close to comments’ even when a new chapter starts.
** OR ** ( as some of us do )…
You can just ‘cut-and-paste’ a comment from the previous chapter over to this new chapter and then ‘Reply’ to it here.
Example: That question from RTS about what made you realize, the moment you first read it, that the original Arizona Forestry “Special Accident Investigation” ( SAIR ) report was nothing but a whitewash. I’d love to hear your comments on that as well.
Sometimes the ‘overlap’ ( both old and new chapters fully active at the same time ) goes on for a week or so.
By the way… in case you missed it in the other chapter…
Reply to Harold post on June 26, 2019 at 11:34 pm
>> Harold asked…
>>
>> I don’t know all the acronyms. What does GTS stand for?
GTS stands for “Google That Shit”.
Thanks for that info!
Gary
In the last chapter you ended in topics of ✝ Christian✝ Fundamentalists…
I get you and Sonny on the realisms yet I am in a soak so not near pc to correct who was what and where but I too struggle to this very day with. GOD HAD THE PLAN when MAN was not MINDFUL and due to THAT we had all those deaths and yet the very people who were on Yarnell fire would even THINK to reckless expand in June the Superstition Mountains…maybe because it is one of the GMHS friends letting Alan know his favorite hiking spots can be messed with too…they had the fire early on…gather your public records asap but nowadays they REQUIRE one to get third party signatures so if I ask for Alan nowadays he has to be in the know and SIGN OFF before I can gather on him…when did that start…I got loads of information and master records and ctrs so how is it NOW the Prescott Forest immediately sends me to Washington Office then puts me to a spot where I have to GOOGLE Chris D and Troy S just to have them sign a paper okaying I can do a fact check on them.. That’s bogus. So much for PUBLIC RECORDS anymore…What do you think of that Elizabeth Nowicki? You are the one who taught me the world of FOIAS and public records…so now if I ask for a FOIA I must get the person I am asking to sign off that it is ok to ask about him or her…its been awhile since you wrote here…I do want to hear from you on this topic. Please share…also how long is too long to get a record from City of Prescott…its about a year old now…when do I pay the big bucks and let legal areas handle that? It has been a costly year already to ensure a case is set and organized for people placing wrong messages to the world…unhealthy ones….sure Gary…I may be the ine who always has something BIG but so does others…WHY is it we await a court room setting to finally say it all…why is it people tell me stuff but not even under an avatar show support here to ensure the others know we are building a strong force and they are not gonna do this again to another Steed or rookie or as Gary says the Christian Fundamentalists…
Come out and share…
John Dougherty is not looking for the next story.. He has other areas to his life but it is time to open up here…indeed it is
https://youtu.be/yRfBVH1oxeA
Keep it up RV’rs and land and homeowners and firefighters…keep up DOCUMENTING…as the eyes are all around this Fire Season 2019…
Also NOT ALL the WF/FFs are going along to get along…remember the Doce Fire Rance? That feeling you had and it leaked into YH Fire…some are facing this NOW on this recent fire 🔥 and they say LATER the action review will happen…so you all can cool down eh…look Rance…time for you to share ehat that LOOKS LIKE when you carry one fire on to next…time for you to HELP OUT because this June fire was excuse my language FUC%ED UP and you WILL NOT SWEEP THAT UNDER ANY RUGS…
Talk about cover up and cover up of the cover ups. Public figures working public jobs and now they can hide themselves behind the locked door.
Prior quick chapter:
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/
Perfect timing.
Bill,
I agree. Perfect timing. What can you tell us to help find the truth. The people burdened with all of this deserve a better life than keeping it bound up inside. The public, the families, past/current/future firefighters deserve the honest truth as well.
Can you help? Were you on the Yarnell Hill fire?
Woodsman, wish I could help, but I can’t,. as soon as the disaster took place I knew there was something up..
I started searching the internet for answers, and that lead me here. I have been sitting in the background reading for 5 year’s Figured it was time to stand up and say hello to all of you.
Good deal, Bill. Thanks for coming in. Every little bit helps. If you have any questions, fire away.
Bill,
Like you, as soon as the disaster took place just about everyone KNEW there was something up. And still does
I’m glad your searching the internet for answers has led you here.
If you have been sitting in the background reading for 5 years, then you are pretty well caught up …
It is time to stand up and join in on the search for – and revealing of – the truths about the epic YH Fire tragedy.
Welcome
Thanks woodsman, don’t know why it took so long for me to chime in. Maybe because Gary scares the hell out of me lol 🤣
Gary is one to get to the point without pussyfooting around. With people like that it’s easy to know where you stand. They don’t call him the Hammer for nothing. His heart is true, however. He wants to figure out, like most of us here, just how in the wide world of sports we can lose almost an entire Crew in this day of enlightenment and cutting edge technology. Gary has been scarred, like many of us, with tragedy fires of his own. It’s not easy to cope with even if one figures out a way to “stow it” for years after the experience. NO MORE is our unofficial motto. Gary is very uniquely qualified to speak in this forum on this topic. He wears his heart on his sleeve and he’s a good man.
If you don’t mind me asking: what piqued your interest to follow this tragedy for 5 years? What gave you the motivation to start posting?
I believe any little bit can help with our endeavor. Thank you.
Agreed there Woodsman–Gary ranks high among the heroes and deserves the respect he demands. Wild land fire fighters that survive the years he put in deserve more than a purple heart–they are wounded warriors and after those long years of fire fighting continue to wear the wounds in their final years of life.
I think too few understand the ultimate sacrifices made to be a wild land fire fighter. I know things I have done in life were tough going but add in the chemical and smoke and danger the wild land fire fighter endures–then retirement with ensuing health results and I stand in awe of their efforts.
Bill,
Fear not. He is merely testing you. He has done it to all of us and continues to do that. Try these
Sun Tzu – Art of War
“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”
“Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.”
“Be extremely subtle even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate.”
“Rouse him, and learn the principle of his activity or inactivity. Force him to reveal himself, so as to find out his vulnerable spots.”
what I do is “puff up” like my pals the horned toads lizards-
That’s how I deal with Gary
or shoot out to gary like horned toads lizards do with their eyes
not able to post today so test post
There’s no “dealing with” Gary. He’s a lifestyle. That magnificent bastard…
Yep. Kung Fu his ass. That’ll fix him!
Wait…you people do know that I’m not dead…right? And that I can still read what you write about me on this thread?
Well…at least Fred has me studying Sun Tzu rather than just Machiavelli, so I guess that’s a step in the right direction?.
Well now that I know Gary has a fly skating rink on his head, i feel a bit better–I was looking at those younger pictures and thinking how did this guy get through all that wild land fire fighting, etc. looking so good.
We do have some interests alike, and agree on so many things. I was quite intrigued by Gary’s Dad’s photo. He was the real thing you could tell by his yellow well worn wet suit and miners hat that he was no rookie. He had mined there as one of the first miners to start that shaft I later worked in. In fact he was there the year that Kerr McGhee first started that Uranium mine which is always the most dangerous time–early on when people were just beginning to learn the dangers of mining Uranium in sandstone.
Everything was a mad rush in those early days especially. The government in the 60’s was in the cold war in a big way and had to have that Uranium to get the bombs built to deter Russia or have us ready to retaliate since they felt Russia might attack anytime. Even when I graduated from a high school in such a depressed town as Lordsburg, NM–named when a bum got off a freight and said Lord what a burg–we were given instructions on how to get under the desk and stick your head between you legs–you thought you had to kiss you ass good by as well.
Lordsburg would have been Russia’s last thought to hit but it kept the kids on edge.
Yet today the CIA people it is not a matter of if but when we will have a nuclear strike–to many bombs out there and even suit case versions equaling the Hiroshima type. It is a good idea to keep good neighbors on both the North and South borders to my way of thinking. Some damn Iron curtain will not stop people if the shit hits the fan and as Gary has pointed out–there is miles of coast line on both sides of the states–how this drug problem comes in mostly to begin with.
Lets just hope that the Yarnell Fire thing is not how all government agencies are doing things.
That should have been, thank you RTS.
Tag in…now you’re the new guy, welcome Bill!
New chapter😊🇺🇸