Please begin Chapter X of the Yarnell Hill Fire discussion here. Once again, do not include more than one link in your comment in order to avoid the spam folder.
Please refrain from personal attacks. Stay focused on what is known and what is not known.
Thank you, John
Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII and Chapter VIII and Chapter IX.
© Copyright 2014 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 10:12 AM
Ms. Collura –
Please find the attached letter regarding your public records request.
Thank you
Beth Nehring
Beth Nehring
Human Resources Representative
Administrative Assistant
Arizona State Forestry Division
1110 West Washington, Suite 100
Phoenix, AZ 85007
( 602-771-1400 | 7 602-771-1421 fax
*[email protected]
http://www.azsf.az.gov
The envelope is marked Dec 16 2014 8pm and Sunday I will post photo of envelope as just PROOF of the FOIA request and this is the kind of stuff IF A PERSON MAKES CLAIMS they can PROVE by doing this…gives it clarity..keeps it transparent…and shows who was first since some care to be first…not me…I am so “cracker” mad at this point how YCSO did me yesterday and this whole horse shit with Chief Ben Palm. I will add on IM when I get photos via dropbox and tell the account but I am in a cracker mad mode this week that anything further I don’t care to help—I am asking locals as I hike to PLEASE show their photos and I am usually very kind in tone but not so kind this week…maybe if people here locally realize I tried the NICE way and this will make 2 Christmas these kids DO NOT have a dad and they could really HELP…Man, I am not a person you want to know nowadays…in a very P’d off mood.
I cannot believe how many people CHOOSE to hold on to their accounts when they can help
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6yhyc4jj0gut08v/prr%20collura%20121514%20%281%29.pdf?dl=0
to see the letter.
Please begin Chapter XI….
Thank you, John.
Direct jump to the new Chapter XI ( Eleven )…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xi
**
** VOICES IN THE STATIC – 2
**
** SOMEONE APPEARS TO BE REPORTING ABOUT
** GRANITE MOUNTAIN IN VIDEO M2U00264
This is a followup to the other recent ‘Voices in the static’ posting below.
THIS one is that loud HUM followed by that ‘voice in the static’ heard in Aaron Hulburd’s video M2U00264.
This is the transmission that took place just prior to the first MAYDAY call from Jesse Steed where both KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd say ( during the transmission ) that they are sure it is coming from either Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed.
Aaron Hulburd says ( during the transmission ): “That’s gotta be… Eric or Jesse.”
Then KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell immediately replies with: “That’s gotta be them, yea.”
That does NOT appear to be the case.
I’m not hearing a voice match for either Marsh or Steed. Not really…
…but the transmission DOES contain a conversation ( coming from SOMEONE? Brian Frisby? ) first about them ( Granite Mountain ) not needing to do something because they didn’t finish the work they were doing… and then about how they were told to ‘pick it up and monitor the weather’.
What is actually being said inside that static appears to be this…
——————————————————————————-
Because they didn’t need to. They didn’t complete the work that..
uh… they was doin’ this morning… then they got directed to pick
it up and monitor the weather.
——————————————————————————-
It is not clear WHO this person was talking TO ( since the radio only locked onto the channel in mid-conversation ).. but if I had to venture a ‘good guess’ who the one who is reporting to someone about Granite Mountain is… I would say it’s a very close VOICE MATCH for Blue Ridge SUP Brian Frisby.
This HUM and STATIC ( with conversation in it ) comes just after SPGS1 Gary Cordes has instructed TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel to send at least one Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and to tell that ‘Engine’ to get with Granite Mountain there and make sure they get out safely.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes was SURE ( circa 1635 ) that they were either ALREADY there at the Boulder Springs Ranch… or just about to ARRIVE there.
Before I post the link to the new LOOP on this particular radio transmission… here is the transcript that covers the full timeframe as the LOOP itself from Hulburd’s M2U00264 video…
From Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video clip M2U0064
————————————————————————
VIDEO M2U00264 STARTS AT 1633.23 ( 4:33.23 PM )
+2:29 ( 1635.51 / 4:35.51 PM )
(Very loud HUM followed by STATIC with a voice in it reporting to someone )
+2:31 ( 1635.54 / 4:35.54 PM )
( VOICE in the STATIC – Speaker still Unknown at this time):
Because they didn’t need to. They didn’t complete the work that..
uh… they was doin’ this morning… then they got directed to pick
it up and monitor the weather.
+2:36 ( 1635.59 / 4:35.59 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): That’s gotta be… Eric or Jesse.
+2:37 ( 1636.00 / 4:36.00 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): That’s gotta be them, yea.
+2:41 ( 1636.04 / 4:36.04 PM )
(Foreground: More COUGHING. Sounds like KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell coughing. )
—————————————————————————-
** THE AUDIO LOOP…
This PUBLIC excerpt from Aaron Hulburd video M2U00264 LOOPS 4 times on just this particular ‘static filled transmission’ and it matches the transcript above.
It ENDS with the COUGHING and then LOOPS ( 4 times ) again back to the HUM and then the STATIC filled transmission…
http://youtu.be/EgXir-JV3rw
I have no idea what QUESTION the person who is speaking ( Frisby? ) was answering when he says “Because they didn’t need to”… but my guess would be that someone had asked why they didn’t stay up on the ridge.
Remember… this transmission comes just a few moments after the YARNELL-GAMBLE video where Eric Marsh is CLEARLY heard reporting that Granite Mountain is “Comin’ from the heel of the fire”. Someone might have just heard that and they are now asking the person who is heard speaking in this transmission “Why didn’t they stay on the ridge?”, or something to that effect.
The person answers with “Because they didn’t need to” ( stay on the ridge ) and then explains that it’s because they hadn’t finished their work and were told to ‘pick it up’.
More later.
Thanks for doing this. I’m seriously not good at this, but I woke up too early, so sitting here (while observing interesting complex inter-cat power dynamics) and listening to this over and over.
I think when Aaron says, “That’s gotta be… Eric or Jesse,” he’s referring to the “THEY” in the transmission, “Because they didn’t need to. They didn’t complete the work that..
uh… they was doin’ this morning… then they got directed to pick it up and monitor the weather,” and not the SENDER of the transmission.
I really don’t think any of the Prescotteers would have mistaken that voice for either Marsh or Steed.
I find this interesting: “then they got directed to pick it up and monitor the weather.”
I don’t know what “got directed to pick it up” means. Or by whom. But Abel seems to have been most involved in talking with Eric regarding watching the weather.
I just don’t know the voices all that well. But the voice that is saying that sounds more like Cordes than Frisby to me. Especially given how their voices sound in those segments when you can hear them communicating more clearly. Cordes’ voice has a lower pitch than Frisby’s. And the same pitch as I’m hearing in this communication.
Thanks also for the reminder of “where” this is in relationship to the Gamble video. Definitely could be a connection.
Sorry about being “sparse” these days. Dealing with stuff regarding my 93-year-old mom, big time.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 16, 2014 at 6:38 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I think when Aaron says, “That’s gotta be… Eric or Jesse,” he’s
>> referring to the “THEY” in the transmission, “Because they didn’t
>> need to. They didn’t complete the work that.. uh… they was doin’
>> this morning… then they got directed to pick it up and monitor
>> the weather,” and not the SENDER of the transmission.
Good point. You might be exactly right.
Sure would be nice if someone had INTERVIEWED these guys, eh?
Actually… I believe they WERE interviewed ( it’s hard to imagine they would NOT have been ) but that those notes or transcripts have always been part of what is being withheld from FOIA requests.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I really don’t think any of the Prescotteers would have mistaken
>> that voice for either Marsh or Steed.
Agree. It’s hard to tell, though, how much clearer even THEY ( Hulburd and Yowell ) could have heard the transmission. It really was poor quality… even for them.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I find this interesting: “then they got directed to pick it up
>> and monitor the weather.”
>>
>> I don’t know what “got directed to pick it up” means.
I believe that just means ‘TOOLS UP’. Someone is relaying to someone else that they really were TOLD to ‘stop working’. Hence… ‘pick it up’.
There is also a chance that phrase could be ‘pack it up’… but I listened very, very carefully there and I’m almost sure it is ‘pick it up’… which still makes sense given the context of the rest of that transmission.
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> Or by whom. But Abel seems to have been most involved in
>> talking with Eric regarding watching the weather.
I thought about this a lot. I do NOT believe the speaker was Todd Abel here. Doesn’t really sound like him and I think the ‘context’ also proves it wasn’t him.
I believe the ‘they got told to pick it up’ is actually referring to that radio conversation between Abel and Marsh that was partially captured in the Caldwell video.
In other words… whoever is reporting to someone in THIS transmission might be referring to what THEY heard OPS1 Todd Abel telling DIVSA Marsh earlier…
1. Keep ME informed.
2. Hunker and be safe.
3. We’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP.
The person talking in the new transmission could be referring to the ‘Hunker and be safe’ directive from OPS1 Todd Abel as the ‘pick it up and monitor the weather’ moment.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I just don’t know the voices all that well. But the voice that is
>> saying that sounds more like Cordes than Frisby to me.
>> Especially given how their voices sound in those segments
>> when you can hear them communicating more clearly. Cordes’
>> voice has a lower pitch than Frisby’s. And the same pitch as I’m
>> hearing in this communication.
You may be exactly right.
The more I think about it… it’s actually doubtful this could have been Frisby because of the actual MOMENT when this transmission takes place.
Remember… Frisby and Brown are just about 100 yards WEST of Hulburd at this moment and they are hauling ass OUT of the Youth Camp area in the Polaris Ranger and ‘bringing up the rear’. They ( Frisby and Brown ) are just moments away from pulling up to Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell right there where they are standing in the Shrine parking lot.
I don’t who was DRIVING the Polaris Ranger at that moment… but if it was Frisby himself then he really couldn’t have been the one making this transmission at this moment in time. Well… I suppose it’s possible… but not really likely.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes WOULD be the more likely candidate for this transmission… and as far as WHO he was ‘reporting’ to… I think the most likely candidate might be OPS2 Paul Musser.
Also remember… this is just SECONDS after we have already heard SPGS1 Gary Cordes telling TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel to arrange for that Engine to go and ‘get’ Granite Mountain at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Here is what we might really be hearing at this point…
1) Cordes tells Esquibel to arrange for GM to be ‘picked’ up’ at BSR.
2) OPS2 Paul Musser HEARS this directive to Esquibel and that doesn’t match his mental picture of where GM really is. Musser still thinks they are ‘committed to the ridge’ as they told him earlier.
3) So Musser immediately calls Cordes to get some ‘clarification’.
4) Musser asks Cordes something like… “Hey Gary… I heard what you just told Esquibel to do. What is Granite doing at the Boulder Springs Ranch? Why didn’t they just stay up on the ridge?”
5) Cordes answers…
——————————————————————————-
Because they didn’t need to. They didn’t complete the work that..
uh… they was doin’ this morning… then they got directed to pick
it up and monitor the weather.
——————————————————————————-
“then they got directed to pick it up”
could also mean ‘pick-up the pace’, IF they were already moving.
I wish they had ( picked up the pace ). It is still astounding that regardless of why 2 men decided to lead 17 others out of a safe area and into a ‘risky’ situation that ( once the decision was actually made ) they weren’t doing ‘double-time’ the whole way.
It might have made all the difference that afternoon.
WTKTT said:
–Aaron Hulburd says ( during the transmission ): “That’s gotta be… Eric or Jesse.”
Then KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell immediately replies with: “That’s gotta be them, yea.”
I went and watched/listened to this again to reconfirm what I believe is going on here. I disagree that Aaron said “That’s gotta be..Eric or Jesse” I hear “That’s gotta be Blue Ridge”. AND, they’re watching for the last rig out of Shrine, which is Frisby/Blue Ridge then they show on the razor. And as far as resources like the Prescott guys that are evacuating other resources, they probably aren’t listening for every last transmission on the radio and speculating who it is, just saying. As far as your theory of Musser being the one alerted to GM’s position and questioning Cordes, wasn’t he standing there by the Prescott guys in this video? Didn’t he report the Skull Valley Wx to the Prescott guys?
As far as the background radio traffic, I agree with Marti it’s Cordes. He was doing all the talking as OH during that recording, at the end you can hear him talking to Abel about starting to lose structures too. Also remember that transmissions that are clear are probably decent line of sight, and the ones the Prescott guys aren’t really picking up, not so good line of sight down by the Shrine. Like Abel’s transmission, he was N and was coming across scratchy and broken.
As far as the “then they got directed to (pick it up) (pack it up), whatever, somebody directed them to do something. I’m not 100% sure of exactly what I hear here. Abel’s the “hunker and be safe and I’ll get you air support down there asap” comment, that’s the closest direction we have and it sounds right on.
Also thanks for doing this transcription/loop WTKTT
Reply to FIRE20+ post on December 16, 2014 at 10:40 am
FIRE20+… Thanks for reviewing this.
Once again… great observations on your part.
>> FIRE20+ said…
>>
>> I went and watched/listened to this again to reconfirm what
>> I believe is going on here. I disagree that Aaron said
>> “That’s gotta be..Eric or Jesse” I hear “That’s gotta be Blue Ridge”.
>> AND, they’re watching for the last rig out of Shrine, which
>> is Frisby/Blue Ridge then they show on the razor.
Yes. Could be. At the moment they are saying these things, Tyson Esquibel has just passed the camera in that long yellow/white GLENDALE pickup truck… but the pair of headlights now approaching the Shrine parking lot pretty much has to be the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger about to reach their location.
So yea… Yowell and Hulburd might have been focused on those approaching headlights and agreeing “That’s gotta be them”.
Yowell and Hulburd had already heard Frisby say ( at the start of this same video ) that they would be the ‘last ones out’.
If anyone ever gets a chance to actually interview “The 3 Prescotteers” ( or we ever see the transcripts of interviews they HAVE already given )… maybe what they were referring to there will become crystal clear.
>> FIRE20+ also said…
>>
>> As far as your theory of Musser being the one alerted to GM’s
>> position and questioning Cordes, wasn’t he standing there by
>> the Prescott guys in this video? Didn’t he report the Skull
>> Valley Wx to the Prescott guys?
Yes. Musser was still right there in the vicinity…
but SPGS1 Gary Cordes was NOT there.
So if Musser really wanted to know why Cordes just told Esquibel to send an Engine to BSR to ‘get with Granite Mountain’ there… he could still have been the one that called from right there in the Shrine parking lot asking Cordes “Why didn’t they stay up on the ridge?”
>> FIRE20+ also said…
>>
>> As far as the background radio traffic, I agree with Marti it’s Cordes.
I went back and did more ‘voice comparison’ and I’m going to totally withdraw my own ‘guess’ that it might have been Frisby. Marti is right. Different tonal placement in the voice and it really pretty much has to be SPGS1 Gary Cordes speaking there.
>> FIRE20+ also said…
>>
>> As far as the “then they got directed to (pick it up) (pack it up),
>> whatever, somebody directed them to do something. I’m not
>> 100% sure of exactly what I hear here. Abel’s the “hunker and
>> be safe and I’ll get you air support down there asap” comment,
>> that’s the closest direction we have and it sounds right on.
Well… whether it was Musser who ‘asked the question’ that (apparently) SPGS1 Gary Cordes was ‘answering’ there… the content of his response indicates ( just like Marsh’s response to someone in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video ) that the caller had asked a QUESTION and it was related to Granite Mountain.
In the case of the YARNELL-GAMBLE video… it must have bee a query about where GM was and what was taking them so long to get somewhere. Marsh’s response indicated to the caller that they were “coming from the heel of the fire” and that’s why they hadn’t arrived in town yet.
In the case of this transmission… whoever asked the question was (apparently) getting an ‘explanation’ ( from Cordes? ) as to why they didn’t ‘stay up on the ridge’.
If that really is SPGS1 Gary Cordes making this ‘report’ at this moment in time about what went on earlier with Granite Mountain, and why they were no longer ‘on the ridge’ and were currently “coming from the heel of the fire”…
…then that is just more proof positive that SPGS1 Gary Cordes heard pretty much ALL of the radio traffic concerning Granite Mountain that afternoon… including that conversation Marsh had with OPS1 Todd Abel about ‘the weather’ that resulted in Abel telling Marsh to “Hunker and be safe”.
So something really isn’t ‘matching’ with regards to how much SPGS1 Gary Cordes really did KNOW about Granite’s situation and activities leading up to the deployment… and what Cordes was choosing to share in his ADOSH interview.
Apparently… Cordes knew enough about what was going on with them to share this ‘report’ with someone over the radio just minutes before the first MAYDAY… but then makes no mention to ADOSH of having had this kind of knowledge.
Something not quite right there.
For the record and the Ten Standard orders
3 Crews I worked on and I am Familiar with
Cilaho Hot Shots Angeles NF 34 years disbanded lack of funds.
Never deployed Fire Shelters
Oak Grove Hot Shots Angeles NF 28 years disbanded lack of funds
Never deployed Fire Shelters.
Sawtooth Hot Shots Sawtooth NF 50 Years and still active
Never deployed Fire Shelters
Many other crews can attest to the same thing and they all never experienced a burn over out side a safety Zone
That is the statistics that I stand on for the safety of the 10 standard orders. We lived by them 50 years ago and they are still valid and the rules to day.
That is my evidence I don’t believe I need any thing else.
The ‘Central Arizona Wildland Response Team’ ( CAWRT ) seems to AGREE with you.
Here is their ‘official’ Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Central-Arizona-Wildland-Response-Team-CAWRT/201969799880168
Scroll down and look at what was posted there on June 30, 2014, on the day of the one year anniversary of the Yarnell Fire where ( according to Arizona Forestry’s official SAIT investigation ) ‘No one did anything wrong” and there were (supposedly) no LCES or 10+18 rule violations…
———————————————————–——
Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT)
June 30 · Edited
As we are sure most of you have, please put the families and loved one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots in your thoughts and prayers.
At this time last year, several CAWRT crews were a part of the firefighting efforts at Yarnell Hill and still remember the tragedy as if it was yesterday. Take the time to share with your crews the new LCANS procedures as well as reviewing the 10 and 18 and LCES.
————————–———————————————
So according to the CAWRT… even though (supposedly) “no one did anything wrong” a year ago… this public post of ‘remembrance’ is ALSO asking their followers to PLEASE make SURE they ALL take the time to review LCANS, 10+18 and LCES…
L = Lookouts
C = Communications
E = Escape Routes
S = Safety Zones
The life you save might be your own.
First a correction in spelling Chilao Hot Shots. from above.
For some reason Elizabeth and her small cadre of fire fighters seem to want to dis credit and attack the 10 Standard orders.
To my knowledge and all my checking they are still as strong as they ever were and still referred to and used in training as you have shown above.
Some say they are used to condemn Fire Fighters or they are old and Hill Billy and not for modern day Fire Fighters, or they are vague.
I am saying spend more time researching them studying them and using them and you will find the real direction and meaning in each one and its attachment to the whole. They will serve you well as they did thousands before you.
Some have said you can not do your job and follow them sorry they are wrong.
They are called ORDERS for a reason
Bob, I do not discredit the 10 Standard Orders. All I said is that, as confirmed by Kenny Jordan’s deployment investigation (done by some fellow who is apparently well-known and respected in the WFF world), it is possible to follow the 10 Standard Orders and comport with LCES and STILL end up in a fire shelter or in a near-miss.
That was the only point that I was making.
I am disappointed that you are misquoting me or attributing things to me that I did not say! I am not surprised, mind you, but I am disappointed. I am stunned that John Dougherty ever used you as an expert source given your poor recall on facts, with all due respect.
No it is not possible EVER
The rest dose not merit a reply.
Bob, yes it is. If you doubt me, check with the investigator who reviewed Kenny Jordan’s shelter deployment.
Or I suggest you touch base with Kenny Jordan before you try to argue with me or with what Kenny himself said in his shelter deployment video.
Bottom line he stayed to long where he was lost the time to get to the SZ and got trapped on the rock.
Same as no SZ no trimming to use escape route actually ended up in a deployment site that was marginal and managed to survive. So no he did not follow all the 10 Standard orders or he would not have been where he was. He chose not to leave and move to the SZ Like I said in his statement he waited to long to leave and lost the opportunity. He knew what he was suppose to do he chose not to and lost his ability to escape. That’s what I read don’t know what you
think is safe he was very unsafe but justified it to make sure his crew was safe. So no I don’t completely agree with the investigator. Jordan lost his escape route because he waited to long to leave his lookout spot.
Again He Deployed and did not Burn or Die.
Did he have a Escape Route And A Safety Zone YES did he use it NO. In essence he failed to follow Order #4.
I am not chasing these Rabbits with you any more.
GM Failed to follow any of the rules and Died in the process.
A little history on 3 Hot Shot crews that I served on.
Chilao Angeles NF–34 years no Deployments ever. disbanded due to funding
Oak Grove Hot Shots Angeles NF 28 years no deployments disbanded due to funding
Sawtooth Hot Shots Sawtooth NF 50 years and still active no deployments ever.
That is 3 crews I can say never have used a Fire shelter. And I can say personally they all lived and preached the Ten Standard Orders. They followed them or still are that is a testament to Safety
There are many other crews that can attest to the same thing. I stand on the facts and they are there for those that need to know.
They are as good today as 50 years ago and Fire Fighters are safer because of them. With statistics like that prove me wrong.
Bob,
Ulterior Motives.
It’s all about dilute, divert, and destroy the message/discussion.
Don’t let her push your buttons.
I agree trying hard to move on Thanks……………….
WTKTT,
Remember back many IM Chapters ago, when we discussed the Federal Government’s SAIT protocol of completing a Management Evaluation Report (MER) for use only by upper management, not to be released to the public? Well the link below is for the MER for the fatal 2001 Thirty Mile Fire on the Okanogan NF, in central Washington, near Winthrop
On July 10, 2001, the second day of the Thirty Mile Fire, several WFF left their “lunch spot,” were then cut off by the advancing fire, and six (6) WFF deployed fire shelters above a road in rocks and rock scree and four (4) of the six WFF died. Ten others, including two civilians safely deployed on the road way below and survived without injuries. Two of the civilians sheltered with one of the WFF, making a total of three people in one fire shelter.
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr4/lsr4_management_eval_rpt.pdf
The Recommendations on page 16) revealed the following:
“Situational Awareness, Assessment, and Transition”
“Ensure that fire program managers, fire-line supervisors, and firefighters have situational
awareness, assessment, and decision-making abilities necessary to successfully and safely
transition command from initial attack to extended attack on incidents.”
“Ensure that fire program managers and incident commanders have situational awareness,
assessment, and decision-making abilities necessary to react to significant changes in fire
danger thresholds.”
Sound familiar? This was clearly available and read by many, if not most, of those in the field and those on IMT’s, after the SAIR and MER were released, and should have been under consideration prior to 30 June 2013. Yet it was instead like Ground Hog Day on 30 June 2013.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 15, 2014 at 4:19 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Remember back many IM Chapters ago, when we discussed the
>> Federal Government’s SAIT protocol of completing a Management
>> Evaluation Report (MER) for use only by upper management, not
>> to be released to the public?
Yes. I also remember as part of that discussion the TOTAL FAILURE on the part of Jim Karels and Mike Dudley to do anything of the kind, even though that’s what they were being PAID to do by the State of Arizona taxpayers.
This has been posted before… but just in case anyone is new to the discussion, here is the exact ‘Transfer of Authority’ document that was SIGNED by both Jim Karels and Mike Dudley, and was then sent to Arizona Governor Jan Brewer by Arizona State Forester Scott Hunter.
Notice where it says EXACTLY which DOCUMENTS were *supposed* to be produced… and WHAT those documents were supposed to accomplish…
From the actual SAIR document… PDF page 118
—————————————————————————
Appendix G: Delegation of Authority
To: Janice K. Brewer – Governor of Arizona
From: Scott Hunt – Arizona State Forester
Arizona State Forestry Division
Office of the State Forester
1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
Phonenix, AZ 85007
(602) 771-1400
Serious Accident Investigation Team – Delegation of Authority
On the afternoon of June 30, 2013, nineteen members of the Granite Mountain Type 1 Hotshot Crew from Prescott, Arizona were killed while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire.
As the State Forester of Arizona, I authorize Jim Karel’s Serious Accident Investigation Team to conduct the accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
This delegation is to perform the serious accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire with the final objective of providing a FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report for ACCIDENT PREVENTION.
Your duties include but are not limited to:
…
7: Provide the following formal briefings/reports:
a. Expanded Report ( 72 Hours ).
b. Factual AND Management Report.
Signed by…
Scott Hunt – 7-3-13
Jim Karels, Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
Mike Dudley, Deputy Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
————————————————————————-
So the actual ‘Delegation of Authority’ from Arizona Forestry to the newly assembled SAIT team was REQUIRING both a FACTUAL and a MANAGEMENT report… and the end goal for BOTH documents was the prevention of future ( similar ) accidents.
Period. End of story.
Mike Dudley and Jim Karels then proceeded to just IGNORE all that, and just do whatever the hell THEY wanted to do.
They actually had the SAND to ‘include’ this letter in the only document they even bothered to produce.
Appendix ‘G’ of their own (worthless) ‘Special Accident Investigation Report’ ( SAIR ), whic
That (expensive) publication was in no way any kind of real ‘Accident Investigation’, nor was there anything ‘Special’ about it… and it really even wasn’t much of a ‘Report’.
So TOTAL FAIL on pretty much each letter of the acronym.
And there was NO (detailed) MANAGEMENT report, as they were contracted by Arizona Forestry to also produce.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
I still think both Mike Dudley and Jim Karels need to return whatever money they left the State of Arizona with back to the taxpayers of Arizona.
They didn’t do what they were CONTRACTED to do.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Well the link below is for the MER for the fatal 2001 Thirty Mile Fire
>> on the Okanogan NF, in central Washington, near Winthrop
>>
>> ( Insert link and detail paragraph from above )
>>
>> The Recommendations on page 16) revealed the following:
>>
>> “Situational Awareness, Assessment, and Transition”
>>
>> “Ensure that fire program managers, fire-line supervisors, and firefighters
>> have situational awareness, assessment, and decision-making abilities
>> necessary to successfully and safely transition command from initial
>> attack to extended attack on incidents.”
Total FAIL on June 30, 2013, in Yarnell, Arizona.
>> “Ensure that fire program managers and incident commanders have
>> situational awareness, assessment, and decision-making abilities
>> necessary to react to significant changes in fire danger thresholds.”
Total FAIL on June 30, 2013, in Yarnell, Arizona.
Gary Cordes told ADOSH at least FOUR times…
“The fire just outperformed our expectations”.
No shit, Sherlock.
Keyword: Expectations.
If the people working that fire didn’t have enough knowledge, or training, or experience to have the RIGHT expectations that day… then they should NOT have even BEEN there picking up paychecks from the taxpayers of Arizona.
The taxpayers in Yarnell ( and in ALL of Arizona ) deserved BETTER.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Sound familiar?
Yep. That’s why Yarnell is ( and continues to be ) such a ‘missed opportunity’ for both Arizona Forestry and the US Forestry Service. It is PROOF that the directives and
conclusions that have ALREADY been paid for with other lives are NOT being
regularly implemented or enforced at both the State and Federal Forestry levels.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> This was clearly available and read by many, if not most, of those in the
>> field and those on IMT’s, after the SAIR and MER were released, and
>> should have been under consideration prior to 30 June 2013.
>> Yet it was instead like Ground Hog Day on 30 June 2013.
When small animals won’t come out of their holes… and prefer to just stay ‘underground’ and not listen to anyone OR come out and see the light of day… the only way to GET them to come out is to FORCE them to.
The Yarnell Hill Fire is actually about much, much more than just the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I think the ENTIRE Forestry Program ( both State and FED ) is ripe for a
complete, serious, independent REVIEW.
Management… Hiring Practices… Training programs… Accident Investigations… yada, yada.
Soup to Nuts… before more people get killed.
Joy and I attended the Yarnell Fire Board Group and are just back. It seems they were more intent on enforcing something that can not be legally enforced concerning state trespass laws than they are creating defensible space, looking at concerns regarding the loss of 40 lives since the fire and finding out what the circumstances really were that led up to the 19 GMHS deaths.
A number of Joy’s friends showed up to witness in case we got arrested–it did not happen. Even her husband was there to make bond if needed. The young fire chief stated he was only trying to comply with orders from upstairs, but he did not know that Joy had photographed many people that were on those state lands without legal passes, therefore breaking the law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse these days even though there are 64000 and more on the books. But boys enforcing the law need to get them all down so they can deliver the facts to us hikers. Well it turns out Joy educated many of those that she had in the photo when they later wanted to hike with us–almost to a person they did not know that they had to have a pass to walk on their own public lands. Yes a $15 senior pass or $20 regular pass will get you on with us–we want to keep you out of jail and the exorbitant fine for that awful crime of walking on state or federal lands without giving the mordida (little bite) as they call it in Mexico. Some think it is akin to a robber holding a gun on you so you can walk out there. The state will do that for you as well if you are not happy with their fee.
I did get in a thing about the 40 dying and so first did Joy. I was able to let the board know that 83%of that LC95A slurry fire retardant is ammonia nitrate that gives off a lung tissue killing gas and that 8% is chemicals that we have yet to know due to trade secret. I suggested that since they should have the clout to gain this information, and seeing that they are a fire board concerned with fire things including firemen’s health they ought to find out. Also factor in 40 deaths now since the fire in this little community, would it not be a good idea to contact EPA or the health bureaus to investigate the possible escalation in deaths to older citizens. One lady was very interested on the board and did write this down. Maybe it will help somebody–seeing the 6 page information report on LC95A states it has never been tested on animals or humans as to its effect on health. They just assume it is good stuff and the gasses and chemicals emitted by the drops are benign. Sounds like the same shit we heard when i was a uranium miner–low grade uranium does no harm–yet you can get a consolation prize for being a uranium miner for over 4 quarters of a hundred and fifty grand. It takes one of specific cancers, COPD, and other diseases to get it and up to ten years for approval so hopefully you can hang on against the disease until you get it. Most haven’t and those old miners i knew were mostly gone long ago from one cancer or another. Maybe these firemen need to know now what they breath, so they can have some chance of future retribution–if indeed as i believe they are–breathing dangerous chemicals.
Now back to the fire–Joy did post some more new photos a few days ago. What I saw looked like would be more help in resolving things.
The Discovery Channel guy did contact Joy just before we left–wanted her to report back on how it went at the fire board. Well I did not see much excitement there, but can bet they will lay off Joy after she laid out about six pages of maps, regulations and facts about how the law must be followed not only by us but by those that exercise the law as well.
It is amazing all this to me–I do admire you people here and how well you have been exposing these bumblers of the Yarnell fire.
I have to admit I did ask the FBI to step in and had presented a pretty good argument (at least in my own opinion) as to why they should. It took a long email to the Phoenix office–and one of the things i covered is the obvious cover up and omission of such things as that Bambi and Copter able to stop the fire or at least slow it for oncoming fire fighters that was told by the Honcho to stay put. Such things seem strange to me–also that a photo of two ATV’s on the mountain right at the fire on Friday is in the hands of certain individuals–yet no investigator has ever bothered to contact those people with the photo or even ask who it is that has those photo’s.
Did Joy’s discovery of that Bambi/copter photo and the fact that certain firemen on the job hear on radio that bosses told the copter pilots to stand down on Saturday morning piss someone off? Marti and Wants to Know the Truth dissected those photos as to what they were as well as time and date and location. The idea is that someone does not want the truth and nothing but the truth out and in my way of thinking only outside investigators will be able to get closure and satisfaction to the loved ones. There are lots of children out there without fathers now, mothers and dads without their sons. There are plenty of friends saddened by this tragedy So no matter how lightly those dissenters to outside investigators might be, this investigation will go on and no amount of harassment or intimidation will stop those of us who whittle at the veil of whitewash we have been fed.
Fred Schoeffler, as part of his efforts to try to needlessly (or at least prematurely) besmirch the 19 dead Granite Mountain Hotshots, stated below that: “You can find NO investigation report and/or review anywhere, where a WFF followed all The WFF Rules and ended up burned, in a fire shelter, or a fatality.”
In response, I offer the following: Not true, Fred (at least according to what Kenny Jordan states in his Big Creek Fire deployment video)! 😉
According to former Sierra Hotshots Superintendent Ken Jordan’s video interview about his deployment on the Big Creek fire, the person who did the review of Kenny’s shelter deployment found that Kenny was in compliance with the 10 Standard Orders. Go back and listen to the video – at roughly 8 minutes and 47-ish seconds into the video, Kenny says that the guy who did the investigation/review (who apparently was very well-regarded in the WFF world) ultimately concluded that Kenny did not violate the 10 Standard Orders. Yet Kenny ended up in a fire shelter and almost died nonetheless….
It happens. The 10 Standard Orders and LCES sometimes prove insufficient, such that you can end up in a bad situation even when it seems that you honestly, legitimately complied with them in a way that was reasonable at the time.
First Kenny ADMITTED he stayed to LONG to make sure his crew got out. he was stuck on a rock. Fine Hair here as to a violation of the 10 SO’s He personally did not have a escape route and his SZ was the rock not a good choice but the only place for a lookout.
Second he used his shelter and he got lucky and survived in not the best location.
What did RTS say?????
Where a FF ended up BURNED or a Fatality.
THE 10 STANDARD ORDERS ARE ALWAYS SUFFICENT ALONG WITH LCES.
HEY HAVE PROVEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN WITH 10’S OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES BEING SAVED BY THERE USE.
ELIZABETH— WITH NO EXPERIANCE IN WILD LAND FIRE FIGHTING YOU HAVE NO CLUE AND NEVER HAVE.
Again for your information—Granit Mountain Never used the 10 and 18 or LCES in their move off the mountain. THERE IS NO NEEDLESLY BESMIRCHING OF THE 19 DEAD HOT SHOTS
They did not follow the rules so attack me I am saying the same thing and so are many of my fellow Fire Fighters. There was no escape route. There was no posted look out. The SZ that they were headed to was over 12 min. away not good when they were in one to begin with. The had no communications with any one that was watching their move. The AA you suggest was their lookout was to busy to keep track of a crew.
Failure to identify several of the 18 situations. They simply put themselves in harms way by not following Fire Fighting Rules.
Sorry Elizabeth every thing you said falls way short of the facts.
Again KENNY admitted he waited to long and stretched the 10 Standard orders to the limit.
He also so said he learned from his experience.
I am sure Marsh Steed and the crew knew they made the biggest mistake of there lives when they prepared to deploy. Most all who have been there and survived will tell you the same thing I can assure you every one on that crew knew what they did wrong and were stuck with a final hope for survival in a fire shelter.
THERE IS NO FOLLOWING THE RULES HERE AND DYING. IT DOSE NOT HAPPEN IN YOUR SIMPLE WORLD— YOU A NEWYORKER HAVE NO CLUE.
When Hell is real and all around you and you have seen the Elephant and spent years learning how to Fight Wild Land Fire. Then you can discuss the 10 & 18 on an equal footing.
One More Thing I am explaining the facts to you. There is no reference to attacking you here.
Bob, first, Air Attack was not GM’s lookout. They were already gone for the day.
Second, Kenny says in his video that the very well-regarded WFF who did the investigation of Kenny’s deployment said (paraphrasing) that Kenny followed “the Rules” (the Ten Standard Orders) yet STILL got entrapped.
That was my only point, Bob: You can follow the Ten Standard Orders in a way that seems reasonable and have LCES and STILL get caught.
(Folks who have fought wildland fires more recently than you have all know this. Uber-extreme fire behavior is unfortunately not predictable enough given the nascent state of fire science with respect to uber-extreme fire behavior.)
REALLY ELIZABETH
33 years of living and breathing a carrier of wild land fire .
I can tell you to day is no different than 30 years ago The 10 & 18 are still very real and the Fire fighters I know and talk to that are fighting fire today will tell you the same as I just got done doing.
Several years in Southern Cal in as you say Uber-Extreme Fire Behavior
thought us the 10 and 18 were as good then as now.
Todays Fire Fighters like Sawtooth Payette and Boise Hot Shots Who are friends of mine all believe in the 10 & 18 as the absolute rules so no I am not out of touch and can sit down with todays fire fighters and Carrie my weight.
When things go to shit that’s extreme fire behavior today or 40 years ago
Extreme is Extreme——– again you have no clue.
And you tried to convince me this summer that AA B33 was GM Look Out
So don’t play that game either. .
Bob, do you mind if I post various quotes from our e-mail exchanges to show that I did NOT take the positions that you are trying to claim that I took? I am asking you so that I do not offend you by doing it without you first signing-off on it.
SO NOW YOU ARE SAYING THAT THERE WAS NO LOOKOUT AGREED TO IN THE AIR. AND THERE FOR NONE ON THE GROUND?
You just confirmed no LCES OR TEN STANDARD ORDERS followed by GM –which we have known for over a year now.
ELIZABETH they died because they did not follow the rules how simple and straight forward is that.
NO ONE DIES WHEN THEY FOLLOW THE RULES EXTREEM BURNING CONDITIONS OR OTHERWISE.
What was discussed between us was not discussed on here so your posts would violate your own agreement with MYSELF AND OTHERS…..
.
As you have already violated RTS said agreement.
WARNING DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY THAT YOU DID. SHE WILL STOCK YOU.
Elizabeth our and your request for emails was as you said private to release any thing that I did not say here openly is a violation of your own agreement with MYSELF and others.
I do not know what—– various quotes—– you want to post here so no I do not give you permission………………..
WARNIG DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH / LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY THAT YOU DID…
Bob, when you keep referencing our e-mail exchanges, how do you suppose I am going to reply, other than by posting those e-mails? Either STOP lying about them, or expect that I will take that as your explicit permission to post them!
When you claim that I said certain things in e-mails when I know that I did not, you are essentially begging me to post those e-mails. Otherwise, you would not talk about them (and misstate them). Thank you in advance for either being accurate about them or allowing me to post them here so thatI can show what I said. For example, you have repeatedly referenced our e-mail exchanges regarding winds, but I have since learned that the reality is that our wind exchanges revealed more expertise on my part than yours, unfortunately.
Elizabeth you are showing your true colors I have said nothing specific to our discussions over emails nor will I
The subjects we discussed I have stated not the content.
You are only showing your true nature to post emails between us and private. We did not discuss them here and we should not now. What I said is what I said but it was a private exchange and should be left there.
If you wish to start playing that game you will prove what we are already saying. You can not be trusted to not release private information or discussions………….
AND IF YOU THINK YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT WEATHER AND ITS AFFECTS ON FIRE YOU ARE TRULY DELUSIONARY. Answering your statement above and not our discussion On email.
WARNING DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGINST YOU.
Bob, you have repeatedly referenced our e-mail exchanges here, and I am offering to POST those exchanges here, so that you will stop lying about them. You have repeatedly brought them up – not me!
I do not have a copy of any of them yours or mine
So if you want to make a one sided conversation some how attacking me.
Its your game not mine.
If you are going to start that game hopefully JD will block you from this blog.
You will only prove what we have been saying
do not give Elizabeth your email or discuss information with her she will use it against you with no remorse.
Go back to your own BLOG and type what you want its not relevant. nor worth my time.
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
Robert the Second here. You are SO predictable! With you once again, misrepresenting the facts, twisting the truth to fit your means to an end habit, and all the other types of legal maneuver machinations. Your goal is to continually want to steer all relevant Subject Matter to be discussed on this site, ACCORDING TO YOUR STANDARDS in your persistent goal to be the self-imposed arbiter of Truth and Justice and everything righteous.
First off, I Robert the Second, said “You can find NO investigation report and/or review anywhere, where a WFF followed all The WFF Rules and ended up burned, in a fire shelter, or a fatality. NO WHERE!” Did you get that? NO INVESTIGATION REPORT AND/OR REVIEW. This Big Creek Fire Shelter Deployment is NOT listed anywhere in the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center nor anywhere else for that matter. Therefore, my original assertion still holds as truthful and accurate.
Carefully reviewing former Sierra HS Supt. Ken Jordan’s Big Creek Fire, fire shelter deployment video will CLEARLY AND LITERALLY reveal (NOT PARAPHRASING) but quoting here, Jordan stated “Gary Cons (sp?) the Investigator, was about one of the best of the best Fire Behavior guys; he checked off my list and felt ALL THE FIRE ORDERS AND WATCH OUTS WERE IN PLACE.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Furthermore, IF ALL the Fire Orders AND THE WATCH OUTS WERE IN PLACE then he should have been LONG GONE out of there. Therefore, he was NOT fighting fire by The Rules. And he later admitted to staying too long because he was one of the primary lookouts for his Crew.
I would also add that the statement Elizabeth refers to was Stated after Jordon’s short recap of what happened.
This all took place on yarnelhillfireblog at the end a reply by the Administrator of said blog stated.
THE 10 STANDARD ORDERSAND LCES SOME TIMESS PROVE INSUFFICENT SSUCH THAT YOU CAN END UPIN A BAD SITUATION EVEN THOUGH YOU COMPLY WITH THEM.
No place in Jordon’s statement did he state that– it is pure conjecture by the Administrator of that blog base on a assumption.
Again indicating the blog is Administered by ELIZABETH.
LOOKS LIKE MY OLD KEY BOARD IS PLAYING TRICKS WITH ME AGAIN.
Reply to Elizabeth post on December 15, 2014 at 1:54 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> Air Attack was not GM’s lookout.
TRUE.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> They were already gone for the day.
FALSE.
EN said:
“Bob, first, Air Attack was not GM’s lookout. They were already gone for the day.”
Come on, haven’t we already laid out that Air Attack is technically everyone’s lookout? And Air Attack was gone for the day? Failing to pay attention to this detail and then believing you are educating yourself in fire, you’re funny.
EN said:
“You can follow the Ten Standard Orders in a way that seems reasonable and have LCES and STILL get caught.
(Folks who have fought wildland fires more recently than you have all know this. Uber-extreme fire behavior is unfortunately not predictable enough given the nascent state of fire science with respect to uber-extreme fire behavior.)”
As far as the Ten Standard go, we haven’t invented new ways to kill firefighters. You’re missing the intent of the Ten Standard or you’re picking a fight. Which is it? They’re not in place to predict fire behavior, but to give tools to stay alive! And I can assure you firefighters today follow them and respect them. Your sources aren’t conveying reality to you. And what you call “uber-extreme” fire behavior, that’s just another day in R-3 during Monsoon season or R-1 in August, normal ops.
FIRE20+ was referring to B33 which took over as AA acting when B3 left him in charge.
.
No they were not Lookouts in any shape or form as what a lookout is, yes they were in the sky over the fire and viewing the entire fire.
Goes back a long way to this summer and a discussion that did not happen here. B33 was on the fire and there till after the deployment he was acting as AA. Sorry if I confused you.
FIRE20+
Not sure about your educating your self funny statement.
refer to the above for clarification.
I say to my self—-
Man go back and reread you were talking to Elizabeth not me………….
Got way ahead of my self.
And you FIRE20+ are right on I owe you a big one collect any time……
Read below I screwed up
On this one Bob Powers is right on. In all the firefighters we hiked up along that two track we heard the same thing. They just shook their heads and said that none of the firefighter rules were followed here. And that includes such heavies as Dr. Ted Putnam, Wayne Niel, and even former GMHS people.
Now, I will say, I don’t think you even needed the firefighter rules to know better than dropping off into that basin considering the dense brush, the proximity of a wild fire in the energy releasing range of a Hiroshima/Nagasaki bomb, a known thunderstorm in the north east, meteorological reports of coming winds and gusts to 45mph, and looking at a ranch house that has already been declared “bomb proof”. As the mayor of Prescott, Marlin Kueykendall said to me: “Common sense goes a long ways”. But what actually swayed Marsh’s origional decision to stay in the black? Or was it even his decision to go down there. Steed was on the horn as often as Marsh. Who influenced the origional thought?
One thing from where they were in the black, if they were still near their origional morning fire line and work, they would have to follow the two track for about 3/4 mile and completely out of sight of the Helms ranch until they reached that saddle or were just above the saddle on that two track. They would have covered all that in the green albeit the two track would have been clear enough to move along at a good pace. They would be watching the wild fire in its amazing advance toward people’s valley and just a mile or so below them. It would be after they dropped off in that basin that they would have lost sight of the fire and would have green behind them as well as in front of them. Heaven help them should the wind change because they were in a maze where there would absolutely be no running. You could make it to the boulders either to the South or to the North from where they were–but not to that ranch–no way–Joy and I had come through that brush, and it took some hours just to make a mile without packs, chain saws and cumbersome clothing.
So yes, Marlin, Common Sense does go a long ways. So those rules are common sense.
Please provide EVIDENCE that:
1. The Granite Mountain Hotshots, when they left the black they were in and attempted to cross a brush-filled bowl to reach the Boulder Springs Ranch, were maintaining adherence to the 10/18/LCES, which, then, just failed to work for them.
2. Ken Jordan believes the Granite Mountain Hotshots were abiding by all the above rules, in spite of their otherwise astonishing and inexplicable demise, given what he said about them in the video that follows the one you are referencing.
2. You understand fire/weather behavior more than Bob Powers does. or even I do. So far I have seen no evidence in the past year of this conversation here that that is the case. I agree the Granite Mountain Hotshots walked into “extreme fire behavior.” But I also agree with others that, given the way monsoon weather characteristically works in the Southwest, “extreme fire behavior” was entirely predictable at the time they chose to walk into it.
What Bob Powers has said, here, all along, is, essentially, that they shouldn’t have walked into it. Regardless of exactly which way it was going.
Please provide evidence that you understand fire behavior any better than that.
Otherwise, I will consider what you are doing here to be no more constructive than diversion. And using Ken Jordan’s brief words, out of context, to further that aim.
And, no, Air Attack was not “already gone for the day.”
Bravo 33 was fulfilling the role of Air Attack at the time of the deployment. That’s what Air Support Modules are designed to do. Whether you agree with that rather controversial model these days or not.
So there’s that. Also.
I would Advise. More. Homework.
That is,
If. You. Want. More. Credibility.
was in touch today with the History Channel guy/producer Demetri and I will update here first than get back to him but I am very much not well.
I will post the raw unedited YFD meeting which to me was boring even on topic of us but it is here public for you all.
I need to post it than go lay down or something. right behind the right eye intense pain….so doubt I will read much on updates on here—
AGAIN let me EDUCATE the PUBLIC and LOCALS…PLLLLEEEEEEEEEEAAASSSSEEEE start sharing your photos public. How much time has to pass by? What does it have to take? It is CRUCIAL you all share!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thank you to some of the current and retired or no longer a part of the firefighter community that was there as well as Brian Murphy and Errol Eastwood and very appreciative to Mayor Ed Gregory and Congress resident Pat Fisher for your attempts as well as my husband taking time away from his work schedule to be there and Sonny and very deeply appreciative to Patti & Larry McCracken for just being there for support. No Dr. Leroy Anderson; ??? Maybe forgot.
Smokejumper Murray Taylor- we got your email 12:25pm 12-15-14 and we are looking forward to ordering your new book ( t-hangar days) (jumper humor) Happy Holidays to you too. Buy his book today “More or Less Crazy”
Feel free to forward this email anyone else you might think would be interested in purchasing the book. I wanted to write a funny book, one with lots of humor (you know–jumper humor) and I think I got a good bit of that done. It was a hell of a lot of work and really happy it’s finally finished.
All the best and Happy Holidays, Murry A. Taylor, Author of Jumping Fire.
This is the link to the paperback: *There’s no hardcover at this point.
http://bookstobelievein.com/MoreorLessCrazy.php
You can also call 303.794.8888 direct to order this book. This link, or a phone call, is my preferred way for you to get the book. If you buy it from Amazon, you might get it a little cheaper, but I only get $4.00. If you buy it from Books To Believe In I get $12.00.
http://bookstobelievein.com/MoreorLessCrazy.php
Synopsis: More or Less Crazy
In More or Less Crazy I return to the summer of 1973. It is my first as an Alaska smokejumper, and a wild and freewheeling time in and around Fairbanks. It’s the beginning of the construction of the Alaska pipeline. From our comfortable barracks and tent frames on the green banks of the Chena River, a new and clueless District Manager moves the crew to a deserted old hangar on Fort Wainwright. He is bent on ridding Alaska of smokejumpers. They just cause too many problems. The T-hangar has no running water, no electricity, no heat. The crew is made up of Vietnam Vets, ex-Air America bad boys, and transfers and no-rehires from the jump bases in the Lower 48. Being stuck on Fort Wainwright in the old T- Hangar, surrounded by chain link fences and gravel lots, and under the eye of the Military Police is a recipe for disaster.
Al Mattlon, our new base foreman, is a different kind of boss. One who senses the value of the individual spirit. Crew meetings begin. Trust builds. Strong personalities come forward, then together in an outrageous testimony to the joy of living life fully in one of America’s last great true-life adventures. In an odyssey of movement and beauty we jump fires from Kodiak Island to the shadows of Denali, and in the winds of Isabel Pass. By early August we are jumping fires out of the North Cascade Smokejumper Base in North Central Washington, then La Grande in Northeastern Oregon, then on to Missoula, Montana to finish the season.
I don’t claim this to be the complete/definitive story of the T-Hangar Days. There’s just too much to contain in one book. It is but a mere glimpse. Spend a summer with a crew of special characters and witness, not only its ability to perform minor miracles stopping wildfires, but also to laugh and play in a raucous celebration of the human spirit. I hope you enjoy it.
One more thing, I’d really appreciate you writing a review as soon as you finish the book. Either on the To Books to Believe In site, or on Amazon.com. This especially helps if done on Amazon. Thanks so much. Murry
Again the link: http://bookstobelievein.com/MoreorLessCrazy.php
today’s meeting:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/otrhdsabdcrk2uc/141215_0005.MP3?dl=0
someone in email asked me what my view of the meeting. Let me make it straight, I like the fire board members so it is hard to go to a meeting where I like the people on the board. I mean I don’t just like them—I care about the fire board all with heart. My concern is the people who have come to me locally on the topic of Chief Ben Palm not just locally but in his old stomping grounds…otherwise I would NEVER know a lick about who he is and so because I know what Chief stated to me and he sticks with his statement I would find him a person who is not 100% transparent and so to me I will continue to help piece this puzzle together…For the loved ones of the GMHS who know me —do know— as soon as this head pain diminishes I do plan to reach T/S who is someone who has a great account and file…working on it. I know I said the meeting was boring…anything would disinterest me today with my head pain…I am just here typing because Sonny wanted to post here. As you all know he sees the fire different than me. I just want to build the community to 100% transparent and we all pull together and share our accounts so this fire can properly be assessed for EVERYONE affected by the YHF. Thank you for the MANY emails and calls who said they got notice too late and wish they were there…I know you would have…I reckon it is nice to know people support us finding the facts out for the public.
Thank you, Joy!
I will listen to that tomorrow.
My very elderly mom is having lots of physical problems these days, so I’ve had a hard time keeping up.
And I empathize with the fact that you are having lots of physical problems right now, also. Please take care of yourself!!!
Below is a link to MANY links on the Human Factors related to avalanche incidents and fatalities. The close comparison to wildland fire fatalities is quite revealing.
http://www.avalanche.org/moonstone/decision-making.php
Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes aplenty in these avalanche Human Factors links.
I know a snow boarder who survived an avalanche.
He went right back to doing these ‘chopper drops’ on steep slopes
with fresh snow.
I asked him WHY?
He said “If I’m not pushing the envelope… I’m not having any FUN”.
Killing yourself is one thing.
Taking others WITH you is something else altogether.
That’s why RULES were invented… and if you can’t follow them… go home.
The psychological phenomenon of GROUPTHINK, which I allege also occurred on the YH Fire as a causal factor with the GMHS incident, becomes very clear as well in many of these links.
The link below is to the Fire Management Notes (Volume 55, 1995) with the overall theme of ‘Firefighter Safety and Health.’ The particular citations below are from an article titled” “Beyond the Safety Zone: Creating a Margin of Safety” by Mark Beigley.
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/055_04.pdf
“The RISK THRESHOLD for all firefighters is DIFFERENT. Every firefighter
possesses a different combination of knowledge and experience with which to evaluate the relative safety of the current situation. Firefighters
may also have DIFFERENT INFORMATION REGARDING LOCAL FACTORS THAT MIGHT AFFECT FIRE BEHAVIOR. There is an ASSUMPTION THAT VETERAN FIREFIGHTERS HAVE WELL-DEFINED, ACCURATE RISK THRESHOLDS. Also, it is ASSUMED THAT THESE RISK THRESHOLDS CANNOT BE DEPENDED UPON TO PROVIDE A CONSISTENT AND APPROPRIATE ASSESSMENT OF SAFETY FOR ANY GIVEN TACTICAL FIRELINE OPERATION. (ALL EMPHASIS ADDED)
The GMHS had or should have had a completely firm grasp on the ‘local factors’ affecting fire weather and fire behavior being that this YH Fire was virtually in their own backyard AND they were on the Doce Fire days prior with even more extreme fire behavior.
As far as the ASSUMPTION that veteran firefighters maintained accurate risk thresholds,I allege that this did NOT apply to certain GMHS supervisors that instead practiced a repeated habit of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
“But even if firefighters have developed accurate risk thresholds, they always have a DEGREE OF UNCERTAINTY because of inadequate or
deteriorating information.”
Based on Fire Orders #1 and #3 (weather conditions and forecasts AND expected fire behavior), there should have been NO uncertainty for the GMHS since they had the best view of the YH Fire, better than anybody else, AND they had unfettered radio communication access as well!
“The firefighter must constantly evaluate where that line [OF UNCERTAINTY] is and how close he or she is to it, given the current situation. Uncertainty is always present. RISK THRESHOLD IS NOT MEASURABLE, THEREFORE NOT QUANTIFIABLE. FIREFIGHTERS CANNOT MEASURE HOW CLOSE THEY ARE TO AN UNSAFE SITUATION. ONLY THE FIRE CAN PROVIDE FEEDBACK TO THE ACCURACY OF THEIR RISK THRESHOLD.”
In the case of the GMHS and the YH Fire, I allege that they DID in fact have A MEASURABLE AND THEREFORE QUANTIFIABLE KNOWLEDGE of the UNSAFE SITUATION THAT THEY PLACED THEMSELVES IN BY LEAVING A PERFECTLY GOOD SAFETY ZONE DURING EXTREME FIRE WEATHER AND ASSOCIATED EXTREME FIRE BEHAVIOR.” I allege that no one else placed them in that final position but themselves.
I can relate to and understand this one sentence —–
ONLY THE FIRE CAN PROVIDE FEEDBACK TO THE ACCURACY OF A FIRE FIGHTERS RISK THRESHOLD.
Situational awareness is what makes a good fire fighter but in the end it is what the fire is telling you that keeps you and every one around you safe. The 10 Standard orders are from very old school each one learned and studied separately until they were put together in 1957.
The 10 standard orders is nothing more than the fire telling you what is safe and what is not. RISK THRESHOLD
Bad decisions with good outcomes–WHAT IS SAFE AND WHAT IS NOT—ORDER #10 Fight Fire Aggressively but Provide for Safety First. It was put there for a reason.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on December 14, 2014 at 3:36 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The link below is to the Fire Management Notes
>> (Volume 55, 1995) with the overall theme of ‘Firefighter
>> Safety and Health.’ The particular citations below are
>> from an article titled” “Beyond the Safety Zone:
>> Creating a Margin of Safety” by Mark Beigley.
>>
>> http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/055_04.pdf
Read it. Thank you. Great document.
However… you had one bad ‘typo’ up above that changed the meaning of one of the sentences in the document.
You typed ‘CANNOT’ in a place where it actually should have been ‘CAN’ ( in relation to it being assumed veteran firefighters are always making the right judgements ).
Paragraph above should have read like this…
( Your EMPHASIS retained, change noted as ‘*CAN*’… )
“The RISK THRESHOLD for all firefighters is DIFFERENT. Every firefighter possesses a different combination of knowledge and experience with which to evaluate the relative safety of the current situation. Firefighters may also have DIFFERENT INFORMATION REGARDING LOCAL FACTORS THAT MIGHT AFFECT FIRE BEHAVIOR. There is an ASSUMPTION THAT VETERAN FIREFIGHTERS HAVE WELL-DEFINED, ACCURATE RISK THRESHOLDS. Also, it is ASSUMED THAT THESE RISK THRESHOLDS *CAN* BE DEPENDED UPON TO PROVIDE A CONSISTENT AND APPROPRIATE ASSESSMENT OF SAFETY FOR ANY GIVEN TACTICAL FIRELINE OPERATION. (ALL EMPHASIS ADDED)
WTKTT,
Thanks for finding my error and thanks for setting things straight.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on December 14, 2014 at 3:36 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The link below is to the Fire Management Notes
>> (Volume 55, 1995) with the overall theme of ‘Firefighter
>> Safety and Health.’ The particular citations below are
>> from an article titled” “Beyond the Safety Zone:
>> Creating a Margin of Safety” by Mark Beigley.
>>
>> http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/055_04.pdf
Once again… thanks to RTS for this link and this document.
Not only should it be REQUIRED reading… I think “there should be a test” and anyone even remotely being considered for a fireline command position should have to PASS the test based on this document or they don’t get hired for the job.
What struck ME the most when reading this (entire) document
( officially published by the US Forestry Service ) is the section
under ‘Margins of Safety’ where they basically say…
“Try not to screw up… but if you do… just use your fire shelters”.
Unbelievable.
From page 22 of the PDF document ( which totals 40 pages )…
——————————————————
CREATING A MARGIN OF SAFETY
A margin of safety can be described as a cushion of time needed by firefighters to get to the safety zone before the fire gets to them.
It is the positive difference of T1 minus T2. In figure 1, the difference is 6 minutes ( 18 minutes minus 12 minutes ), so the firefighters are in a safe position. If T1 equals T2 as in figure 2, the difference is ZERO and the fire and the firefighters arrive at the safety zone at approximately the same time.
Obviously, this situation would not benefit the firefighters; the fire may block their planned escape route.
At best, they would experience a very close call, so they need to evaluate their margin of safety for escape or build a new safety zone.
It the difference is LESS than ZERO as in figure 3 ( T1 is 12 minutes and T2 is 15 minutes equalling -3 minutes ), then it is likely that the fire will reach the firefighters before they get to the safety zone.
While we would hope that firefighters would deploy fire shelters and survive the fire, for a margin of safety, firefighters must arrive at the safety zone before the fire.
——————————————————–
The amount of “No shit, Sherlock” being displayed in this section is astounding… but to just INSERT that suggestion that fire shelters might always be your “get out of fuck-ups free” card at this point in the document is just absurd.
That being said…
This section of this OFFICIAL US Forestry publication could NOT possibly be more relevant to what happened in that single hour of 3:45 PM to 4:45 PM in Yarnell, Arizona, on June 30, 2013
Regardless of the WHY this group attempted that move… they had their ‘T1’ and their ‘T2’ so horribly wrong that it is hard to believe these people had ever even been on a fire before… or had ever even attended even the most basic WFF training class.
It was ( in the end ) a complete a total TACTICAL failure ( regardless of motivations )… and even the preliminary reports should have been acknowledging this fact.
WTKTT,
Jolly good. Could not have said it any better.
Fire shelters are said to be “responsible for saving hundreds of lives and preventing hundreds of injuries.”
Maybe so, however, FOLLOWING THE WFF RULES OF LCES, the TEN STANDARD FIRE ORDERS AND THE 18 WATCH OUT SITUATIONS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR SAVING THOUSANDS OF WFF LIVES EVERY SINGLE YEAR.
You can find NO investigation report and/or review anywhere, where a WFF followed all The WFF Rules and ended up burned, in a fire shelter, or a fatality. NO WHERE!
What is astounding to me in that OFFICIAL United States Forestry Service document is that ‘mindset’ that seems to be ‘leaking out’ such as the one pointed out above.
“Drop packs and RUN” is also an ‘officially’ accepted way to try and save your own ass when you have (already) screwed up pretty badly…
…but as this document above shows ( and some other training videos )… it seems as if the USFS doesn’t really like to ‘talk’ about THAT option very much.
Too much dependence on the ‘fire shelter’ shit… and I think THAT ‘mentality’ is very relevant to what happened in Yarnell that horrible day.
If the document above that was going to great lengths to try to explain in some kind of ‘child like’ way that YES… “it’s always better when making a move to make sure you have the TIME to get there before the damn fire does” felt the need to mention any ‘options’ when you have totally screwed up your ‘calculations’…
…then I think it should have at least read like this…
—————————————
“While we would hope that firefighters would EITHER ‘drop packs and run’ or ( as an absolute last resort ) deploy fire shelters to POSSIBLY survive the fire, for a margin of safety, firefighters must arrive at the safety zone before the fire.
—————————————
Followup…
Maybe it’s just the ‘R’ word in ‘drop packs and run’ that makes the USFS seemingly reluctant to talk about it.
Maybe they think the word RUN just isn’t all that compatible with “the HERO business”.
HEROES (supposedly) don’t RUN.
HEROES (supposedly) ‘stand and fight!’.
All for one… one for all… yada, yada, yada.
“Tends to RUN” Doesn’t ‘look good’ on
the ‘ol HERO resume’.
Even Mike Dudley ( a SENIOR level official in the US Forestry Department ) displayed this ‘mentality’ when he was talking to those firefighters in Utah on June 20, 2014.
He actually called the horror of the deployment site a ‘lesson in cohesiveness’… and then used the term RABBITS for anyone who would NOT tend to lay down and die with his buddies.
Darrell Willis in on record saying how PROUD he was that they all just basically laid down and burned to a crisp ‘together’…. with HONOR ( his words ).
So yeah… maybe it’s the work RUN.
Not compatible with the ‘HERO business’.
Maybe they should change the name of that accepted technique of saving your own damn life to something like…
“Drop packs and reposition”.
HEROES are, in fact, allowed to ‘reposition’.
Sounds like you are just getting into a better spot to do more ass-kicking.
But ‘RUN’?
Nah… that sounds like it will just get you a ‘pink helmet’ award, or something.
WTKTT
First let me say I do not know any Wild Land Fire Fighters or have I known over the past 55 years that call them selves HEROES.
They are not in the HERO business.
They do not have a HERO resume.
There is not a one of us that has not RUN to a Safety Zone at one time. and made sure each and every one of our crew got there. Because we planed in advance and had the time.
Organized runs are always better than a jack rabbit scatter and most were not really runs but hurry up and get there.
The worst scenario is putting your self and crew in a panic run and scatter. #9 Maintain con troll of your Forces at all times.
#6 Be Alert, Keep Calm, Think Clearly Act Decisively.
#5 Post lookouts when there is POSSIBLE danger. The word is POSSIBLE not when you are in danger but before.
If you read and study each order then you will understand #10.
The 18 Situations tell you to STOP step back and plan and implement safety before proceeding.
So we Go back to Granit Mountain they did none of the above and put them selves in a position of Shelter deployment. Their supervisors failed to follow the 10 & 18 and they ended up in their situation that is the fact no matter what the reason.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 15, 2014 at 10:12 am
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> First let me say I do not know
>> any Wild Land Fire Fighters or
>> have I known over the past 55
>> years that call them selves HEROES.
Of course. It’s really more of a matter of how SOCIETY, in general, views them and the work they do. Most FFs just think they are ‘doing their job’. Nothing more. Nothing less. It is SOCIETY itself that tends to label them HEROES.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They are not in the HERO business.
Well.. yes they are… pretty much… whether they personally care to acknowledge it, or not.
See above. There are few professions in society that sort of automatically get the HERO label attached to them. Firefighting is one of those professions.
I drove by my own State Capitol building just this morning and there are only THREE ‘monuments’ erected there. ( With bronze statues and whatnot ).
One is for World War II veterans.
One is for Vietnam war veterans.
One is for Firefighters.
I think most FFs, while being personally humble, are VERY much aware that they ARE in ‘the hero business’, like it or not.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Organized runs are always better
>> than a jack rabbit scatter.
Probably so.
Do you think that is what USFS official Mike Dudley was really referring to when he, himself, used the term RABBITS ( in a derisive tone ) in his speed to those Utah FFs?
Was this what he was referring to?
The advantages of a an ‘organized RUN’ to safety versus an ‘every man for himself’ sort of thing?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So we Go back to Granit Mountain
>> they did none of the above and
>> put them selves in a position of
>> Shelter deployment. Their
>> supervisors failed to follow the
>> 10 & 18 and they ended up in
>> their situation that is the fact
>> no matter what the reason.
Agree. If you just look at that official US Forestry document that RTS found and what it teaches… they had their T1 and their T2 horribly wrong that day… and paid for that mistake with their lives.
Regardless of motivations… once they set about making the MOVE itself.. it was a horrible TACTICAL error… and can/should be studied further from that perspective alone.
Again there is a huge difference in structure Fire Fighters and wild Land FF.
Structure FF have equipment that allowed them to run into buildings and save people real hero’s.
Wild land Fire Fighters build line and save Forests for the most part. They seldom save structures in the Urban Interface unless they have a lot of time to build line around structures.
They are not trained to put there lives on the line to save people homes or forests,
So no they are not in the Hero business and no they do not get promoted for putting their lives in jeopardy. They get bad Safety ratings.
WTKTT,
When Mike Dudley used the term :RABBITS” in his Utah Fire Authority presentation, that is EXACTLY what he was talking about.
Very on point.
http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/acc_report.php?acc_id=525&accfm=inv
The Wallowa Alpine Huts accident is a recent one that’s very on point as it involves social rank (lead guide, assistant guide and clients) and a group being led into a terrain trap during a period of considerable hazard, with further violation of what are considered safe travel protocols in that context.
SR,
Yes, this Wallowa Alpine Huts accident is a good one. The danger/warning signs were all there but evidently ignored and/or discounted.
A look at Joys Google Map shows a real problem with a dozer line north of Glen Isla to the BSR.
It is like Boulder strewn land scape. No place for a dozer to do much of any thing and certainly a very slow Indirect line building for a hand Crew.. It was certainty not the place to build fast Dozer line if at all with the bolder strewn land scape. Just my take from experience.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/17613+Westward+Dr,+Yarnell,+AZ+85362/@34.21781,-112.764711,772m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x80d3304c99643251:0x7a2ad746b7f38ff9
Mr. Powers… thank you. Throughout the discussion below I kept waiting from someone ( anyone ) with some good ‘dozer firebreak construction’ experience to actually just go off and look at the same satellite imagery that we KNOW SPGS1 Gary Cordes was looking at that day.
I believe I can see some ‘possibilities there’.
The driveway leading out to the Boulder Springs Ranch was ‘clean as a whistle’ and more than two dozer blades wide… pretty much wider than anything else anyone had even been working on all day long.
I also see a dry creek bed there that *might* also have been used to connect over to the botton of the Sesame area where the dozer loboy was staged. Google Earth shows that it was probably ‘pushable’ with that fixed-blade dozer they had.
But I have never ridden a dozer and been pointing at the ground telling some guy where to push to try and stop a fire. Not even once.
It doesn’t matter what I think. It actually doesn’t matter all that much what any one us HERE thinks… in hindsight.
What is/was essential to the discussion below is what did SPGS Gary Cordes think?
Obviously HE thought there were ‘possibilities’ there or he wouldn’t have even asked BR Hotshot Cory Ball to ‘scout it out’ circa 1600 ( 4:00 PM ).
SPGS1 Gary Cordes had all day to go ‘scout that out’ himself… but I honestly think the situation we are looking at here is that NONE of these ‘professional firefighters’ on the ground that day thought for one minute that the fire was going to be coming into Yarnell during THAT burn cycle.
On the south side of the fire… they were totally focused on those ‘other’ dozer lines… even though anyone with line building experience now seems to say there was no way they had the manpower to do what they were attempting that day. Even if the Arroyo Hotshot vehicle hadn’t broken down and Arroyo had been able to make it… many have said it was just too much line for so little manpower/equipment.
Gary Cordes must have told ADOSH about 4 or 5 times, in his interview, that the REASON for all kinds of things that day was the fire simply ‘outperforming out expectations’.
That sad part is that Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ had ALL the ‘correct expectations as early as 12:30 PM that day. They knew Granite Mountain was already (quote) “out of the game” even at that early hour… and when they say the other Hotshot team that WAS already there ( Blue Ridge ) just sitting on their asses near their buggies doing nothing at all… that’s when ‘Bravo 3’ decided to put in that ‘desperation’ retardant line right in the middle of the frickin’ ‘gasoline-on-a-stick’ manzanita fuel
So there’s already plenty of evidence ( even from people’s own mouths ) that they were operating from ‘unrealistic’ perspectives in Yarnell that day.
I still maintain that some ‘plan’ to throw in this emergency dozer push to at least try to keep the fire from charging right into that Glen Ilah subdivision that afternoon might have been just one more ‘unrealistic expectation’ on the part of fire management that day… but they were still going to try and do it, anyway, if possible.
Other ‘unrealistic expectations’ on the part of ground forces all day…
1) The night before, SPGS2 Darrell Willis officially noted in his logs that the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’ had very little chance of being protected… but come the morning… there were still TONS of valuable resources out there at that place doing the usual… push a little line, chop a little brush, burnout a little if the winds will let you stuff going on. NONE of that ended making ANY difference… just as Willis had said it wouldn’t the night before.
2) The night before, SPGS1 Gary Cordes said that if the fire even STARTED to come into Yarnell… they really wouldn’t be able to save much at all… but come the morning… there are Hotshot crews ( supposedly ) building line breaks and guys in engines with chainsaws actually cutting some brush in a canyon… like that was going to do ANYTHING. The only real solution for Yarnell was EARLY evacuation, more specific structure protection, MASSIVE Air Support… and all your fingers and toes crossed. Gary Cordes knew all that the night before… but come morning… all these resources are there working on plans with ‘expectations’ that just weren’t even realistic.
3) SPGS2 Darrell Willis himself told ADOSH that the ‘other’ defensive operation there on Model Creek Road would have, itself, been another total failure and waste of time if the wind hadn’t reversed when it did. If the winds had remained from the southwest, that fire was going to jump that Mode Creek Road like a 10 year old hopping over the cracks in the sidewalk and it would have just marched into Peeples Valley. Even according to Willis… there would probably have been ‘total destruction’ in THAT community.
I could go on… but in all these cases the key word is ‘expectation’.
Someone, somewhere… EXPECTED all these things to work despite others ( Like Air Attack Bravo 3 ) knowing damn well they didn’t have a chance.
So the same *might* have been true for this attempt to push dozer line to protect Glen Ilah at the last minute… and someone’s ‘expectation’ that it *might* make a difference.
If they had actually done it… and the fire just jump right over it and destroyed Glen Ilah anyway… then that would be just one more ‘failed expectation’ that could be added to the list above along with all the other ‘work’ they were doing that really didn’t have a chance of making a difference that day.
One of the important ‘Lessons Learned’ from this fire ( even if no one had died ) would be how in the world was so much WORK being done that people now look at ( and testify about ) and admit it didn’t have a chance that day.
Was it all just ‘busy work’? Make it ‘look good’ to prevent lawsuits from property owners?
Earlier evacuations might not have saved any more structures… but it would have made a HUGE difference with regards to people having the TIME to collect up their most valuable possessions and get THEM out of harm’s way.
All of the above is only talking about SUNDAY.
The ‘incorrect assumptions/expectations’ began long before that.
Given the topography, conditions and EXPECTED weather that weekend… the only real cure was prevention.
The minute that DOC crew let that puppy ‘escape’ over that two-track road and start charging down into that valley that night… the ‘realistic’ thing to do would have been to start the evacuations right then and there.
Even former Yarnell Chief Peter Andersen knew that.
He said “Without MASSIVE Air Support in country like this… you might as well just get out there and piss on it… which it looks like that’s all they were doin'”.
A basic lack of enough recourses to accomplish the objectives on the 30th..
Another Dozer and 2 more hand crews would have made a big difference.
Concentrating Air Drops on the Fire its self in support of crews rather than 1000’S of wasted gallons in the middle of a brush field.
Simple but 20/20 hind site.
I know all of these men thought they were just ‘doing their job’… but here we are now still trying to make sense of the decisions being made pretty much that ENTIRE weekend.
MOST of it just doesn’t make any sense.
If you just taken the ‘intel’ that Darrell Willis and Gary Cordes came up with overnight… it’s a wonder the evacuations were NOT being called for first thing in the morning.
People would have been pissed ( since they wouldn’t have been seeing the danger that early in the morning )… but in the end they would have been PRAISING the officials for those ‘early evacuation’ decision(s).
There might also be a lot of people ‘whining’ and ‘hindsighting’ and saying things like “they should have been cutting dozer line all over the place”…
…but I think Arizona Forestry’s decisions ( had they been more realistic ) would be standing up to scrutiny better than the ones their employees DID make that weekend.
I would certainly give just about anything to be hearing people pissing and moaning about how Arizona Forestry decided that cutting dozer lines out in the boondock would be an absolute waste of time, given that topography and those conditions… than to still be trying to figure out why 19 men DIED in the performance of that ‘useless exercise’.
WTKTT,
The real ‘PREVENTION’ for residents of Yarnell would have been them, the YARNELL RESIDENTS, taking responsibility as private land owners, and actually ‘Firewising’ their property and/or performing hazardous fuels reduction weeks to months in advance of fire season on a regular annual basis, around their structures. It is NOT the responsibility of any Government agency or WFF to do that. It is PRIVATE PROPERTY.
This is a link to a July 17, 2013 AZ Central article titled “Brush Clearing Saved Homes – Study: Homeowners who took precautions were saved.’ interesting report by a Washington state-based satellite company.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130715brush-clearing-saved-homes.html
“Almost all the buildings in the burn zone that had been adequately cleared of surrounding brush survived the Yarnell Hill Fire, according to the first known study of the deadly blaze.”
“However, only 63 structures out of 569 in the community, or 11 percent, were properly defended, according to researchers at the Pacific Biodiversity Institute.”
“Of the 63, 60 were safe, while the fate of the other three could not be verified by the Washington state-based conservation-research group, which used satellite imagery and mapping software in its study.”
“The study concluded that Yarnell and Glen Ilah “were not prepared for wildfire,” like the Yarnell blaze, …..”
“The study, funded by donors, cost less than $10,000. The Center for Biological Diversity, a conservation-advocacy group, donated $3,000.”
The AZ Central article concludes with “Although debate continues about what to do to prevent and respond to wildfires, there is little disagreement that they are certain to be more common and more dangerous, as the drought-stricken West continues to fill up with people. Fires like Yarnell’s are inevitable, experts agree”.
“What is not is the loss of 19 firefighters.”
“To prevent that from repeating, Morrison concluded, “There needs to be a thorough, independent investigation of all the factors that contributed to this tragedy. The rationale and wisdom of deploying of a hotshot crew in this chaparral-covered valley during extreme fire weather needs to be addressed by this investigation.””
AGREED, however the SAIT failed to complete a THOROUGH investigation. Moreover, the GMHS, of their own accord, used Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes ‘rationale and wisdom of deploying … [themselves into] this chaparral-covered valley during extreme fire weather’ NO ONE FORCED THEM to leave their perfectly good Safety Zone without the benefit of a REQUIRED LOOKOUT pursuant to LCES and the Ten Standard Fire Orders.
Moreover, the proposed dozer work that you refer to above should/would have triggered MANY of the Watch Out Situations, namely #10 ATTEMPTING A FRONTAL ASSAULT AND #11 UNBURNED FUEL BETWEEN YOU AND THE FIRE. Therefore, a wise and prudent WFF would NOT have engaged in thosedozer operations except all morning long and early afternoon.
“
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on December 14, 2014 at 4:31 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The real ‘PREVENTION’ for residents of Yarnell
>> would have been them, the YARNELL RESIDENTS,
>> taking responsibility as private land owners, and
>> actually ‘Firewising’ their property and/or
>> performing hazardous fuels reduction weeks to
>> months in advance of fire season on a regular
>> annual basis, around their structures.
>> It is NOT the responsibility of any Government
>> agency or WFF to do that. It is PRIVATE PROPERTY.
Yes… except for the places where there ‘Government agencies’ HAVE stepped up and REQUIRED people living in high-risk urban interface areas to do something.
Those districts are few and far between… but they do exist.
It’s also about time the INSURANCE companies, themselves, stepped up to bat in this ball game. THEY are the ones who can certainly ‘tell people what they ought to be doing’ and its out of their own self-interest to do so.
People NEVER like to be TOLD what to do… even if it is for their own good… but insurance companies have solved that ongoing problem in a number of other areas related to homeowner’s insurance. Either you do certain things or your policy is null and void if/when you ask THEM to ‘pay up’.
As for Yarnell… YES… it was literally just a “disaster waiting to happen”, and SPGS1 Gary Cordes knew that the minute he arrived in Yarnell at 11:30 PM on Saturday night and was told to start ‘scouting around’ the Yarnell area.
He KNEW there would be very little that could be done if the fire even STARTED to come into that area.
From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
Q2 = Dave Larsen ( ADOSH / WFA ) ( Rest in Peace )
A = Gary Cordes ( SPGS1 at the Yarnell Hill Fire )
——————————————————–
Q2: Uh, when, when you were looking at all of that stuff and assessing ( the night before ), what were your general thoughts, overall thoughts of Yarnell?
A: Um, huh, my blanket statement to, to uh, the IC and the operations the next morning was that if fire hit this town we would lose it. It’s uh, it was poorly positioned and, and uh, very decadent with everything and um, it, it – we’re gonna lose it. That was the bottom line if fire hit town.
———————————————————
Darrell Willis had a similar evaluation on the ‘north’ side and was told to check out the multi-million dollar “Double Bar A Ranch” area, which was sitting on the ‘front lines’ for fire threat the next morning.
Willis saw the same thing Cordes did in Yarnell. There wasn’t much that they were going to be able to do to ‘save’ anything out at that place.
Yet… in BOTH cases ( Yarnell generally and Double-Bar-A Ranch specifically )… the first thing in the morning TONS of expensive resources are being committed to doing things that were never going to work.
So who was it that didn’t even LISTEN to SPGS1 Gary Cordes or SPGS2 Darrell Willis?
WHO gave the orders for them to start doing all kinds of shit that they ( as professional WFF firefighters themselves ) had already decided wasn’t worth doing?
Type 2 SHORT Team IC Roy Hall?
OPS1 Todd Abel? OPS2 Paul Musser?
We still don’t really know the answer to that.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> From AZCENTRAL article..
>>”…Fires like Yarnell’s are inevitable, experts agree”.
>> “What is not is the loss of 19 firefighters.”
Of COURSE… and if you read the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits that have been filed this is at the CORE of those suits. You basically CANNOT even file a civil action about just about anything without there being some MONETARY ‘damages’ involved somehow ( even in the case of ‘wrongful death’ filings )… but that isn’t the CORE issue of the suits.
The families all state they want to SEE both Arizona AND US Forestry at least ‘acknowleding’ that the statement above is TRUE and there should be more of an official and visible reaction on their part to what happened in Yarnell.
So far… it’s just “business as usual” from both Arizona and US Forestry.
1) Yes… bad fires are going to continue to happen.
2) Yes… firefighters are going to be dying horrible deaths.
3) Yes… we will continue to build more memorial sites with nice benches and stuff.
Nothing to see here… move along… move along.
The families who filed suit do NOT accept ‘door number 2’… ( or ‘door number 3’ ) and in HONOR of the loved ones THEY have lost… they want to see Arizona and US Forestry NOT accepting it as well.
It’s time they even officially dropped this long-debated “Fight fire aggressively, but provide for safety first” bullshit convoluted mantra.
A good sign that they are ‘paying attention’ to what happened in Yarnell would be for them to OFFICIALLY announce that the NEW mantra is simply…
“Fight Fire Safely”.
Period. End of sentence.
The ‘aggressively’ part that some moron always chose to ADD to the current mantra is AUTOMATICALLY IMPLIED with just the word ‘Fight’. Nothing more needs to be added there and (hence) no implied “Ranger Danger” shit. Of course people will ‘Fight’ the fire. That’s what they are PAID to do… but ‘coming home’ at the end of ANY work shift is ALWAYS the most important thing of all.
>> RTS also wrote…
>>
>> ( Also from the AZCENTRAL article… )
>> “To prevent that from repeating, Morrison
>> concluded, “There needs to be a thorough,
>> independent investigation of all the factors that
>> contributed to this tragedy. The rationale and
>> wisdom of deploying of a hotshot crew in this
>> chaparral-covered valley during extreme
>> fire weather needs to be addressed by
>> this investigation.””
>>
>> AGREED, however the SAIT failed to
>> complete a THOROUGH investigation.
It wasn’t really an ‘investigation’ at all.
It was just a ‘dog and pony’ show.
THEY know that. They DECIDED to NOT do a real investigation, despite every press release that was made surrounding the creation of this SAIT and the actual stated PURPOSE of the unit in the actual ‘Transfer of Authority’ documents that were signed to get them their paychecks.
I still think the taxpayers of the State of Arizona need Mike Dudley and JIm Karels to send back the money they left Arizona with. They didn’t even get what the group was CHARTERED to do… and why the money for it was allocated ( and SPENT ).
>> “The rationale and wisdom of deploying of a
>> hotshot crew in this chaparral-covered valley
>> during extreme fire weather needs to be addressed
>> by this investigation.”
Totally agree.
Those men shouldn’t have really been out in that boondock at all that day… or at least not then be told ( by some SPGS guy who didn’t even consider himself to be a Structure Protection Specialist ) that their ‘Safety Zone’ was just shy of 2 ( TWO ) MILES away from them. That’s just idiotic ( as well as a violation of rules unto itself ).
When Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) arrived over the fire circa NOON… and then finally took a full ‘spin’ around the fire to do a professional situational analysis… THEY already knew ( as early as 12:30 PM ) that Granite Mountain was (quote) “out of the game already”.
Those men should have been hiking BACK to their vehicles as early as 1:00 PM that day… and we wouldn’t be here having this discussion.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Moreover, the proposed dozer work that you
>> refer to above should/would have triggered
>> MANY of the Watch Out Situations, namely
>> #10 ATTEMPTING A FRONTAL ASSAULT AND
>> #11 UNBURNED FUEL BETWEEN YOU AND THE FIRE.
>> Therefore, a wise and prudent WFF would NOT
>> have engaged in those dozer operations except
>> all morning long and early afternoon.
Agreed… but I can find no evidence in the public record that when Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball ( acting as HEQB because the contracted one, Joeseph Hernandez, didn’t even bother to show up in Yarnell that morning ) was TOLD by SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( circa 4:00 PM ) to ‘scout out’ the possibility of dozer line out there near the Boulder Springs Ranch in order to protect Glen Ilah… that Cory Ball then said to SPGS Gary Cordes…
“What… are you NUTS?”
The only entry I can see in Cory Ball’s Unit Log is as follows…
—————————————–
1600…
Structure group one assigns me and ONE OTHER to
locate possibility of DOZER LINE to southwest of Yarnell.
—————————————–
There is no entry AFTER that from Ball saying…
“…and I thought he was out of his mind”.
Ball ( apparently ) said “Aye, aye, sir!” and proceeded to TRY and accomplish that ‘mission’.
At 4:00 PM that day… SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( who didn’t even consider HIMSELF to be a Structure Protection Specialist ) thought it might be a ‘viable option’ even at that late hour… and this ‘command’ to (acting) HEQB Cory Ball would have taken place on a radio channel that DIVSA Eric Marsh could, himself, HEAR.
WTKTT
Your Idea and a Fire Fighters Idea of what Fight Fire aggressively means is in the interpolation.
1. Attack the fire at the point of burning flank and build line with all the tools at your command.
2. Remove hazards like snags before they burn and fall. pay attention to falling rocks and rolling logs.
3. Engines attack the flames and build line behind the water spray knock the fir down and move with line..
4. Many more techniques you are taught basically aggressive is attacking the fire with the equipment you have finding the best location to suppress the fire and building line direct and indirect.
Your safety depends on your knowledge and training.
All of the above with SAFETY FIRST. Thousands of fires are fought this way and none are Fatality Fires.
It is a mind set that has worked for generations. Its knowing Fire, its knowing the proper use of the tools you have and its planning safety into each step you make.
Again I did that for 33 years never deployed a fire shelter, never had a serious injury on my crews and had a lot of great ratings for accomplishing my assignment.
You are in a hostile environment besides the fire the terrain the mountain, the Snags the rocks and the fuel type as well as the weather can be your enemy.
Then you fall to your crew all at different levels of training the tools you Carrie and how they are used.
Old School we never dropped tools or packs and Ran we were taught what we had we might need even at a safety zone. Water, Fire shelter, Tools.
Some books taught and still teach that the fire shelter was your fail safe. Back then we taught the fire shelter was your last resort never depend on it to save your life and you will never need it. I spent the first 7 years as a Fire fighter with out a Fire Shelter They weren’t available till 1967/68.
We learned and drilled our self’s on the 10 & 13 that was our safety That was our learning curve. After watching the first training films on Fire shelters for years after we called them POTATO BAKERS, but it was mandatory we packed them. If you were good and followed the 10& 13
you would never need a Fire shelter proven fact.
So to me and many old Fire Fighters Rule number 10 tells you to follow all the other rules when you hit the fire line an start throwing dirt keep your heads up pay attention and be safe. and attack the fire.
WTKTT
The best and most important thing you will find on Balls assignment is he went there and left the fire was already there no use to try Dozer line, too late….
Mr. Powers… if you are talking about when Ball finally borrowed that ATV from Yarnell Fire department and then was on his way BACK to rejoin Justin and the dozer… then yes… the fire was now already ‘spotting’ into Glen Ilah and he couldn’t get back to the dozer.
But according to Ball’s Unit Log… Gary Cordes gave him the actual assignment circa 4:00 PM. The fire was still just approaching at that time.
WTKTT,
Good points above, however, you mention “that their ‘Safety Zone’ (SZ) was just shy of 2 ( TWO ) MILES away from them. That’s just idiotic ( as well as a violation of rules unto itself).
Actually NOT ‘idiotic’ or ‘a violation of rules.’ I have been on several fires where our SZ was that far or farther away from where we were building line. You just need to Base All Actions on Current and EXPECTED Fire Behavior and allow yourself and your Crew the time you need to arrive in your SZ BEFORE the fire.
Only in the Wildland Urban Interface (WUI) training course does it tell us to have a SZ within minutes away. LCES is an ongoing process and you just need to re-evaluate throughout the Operational Period how long it will take you and your Resources to safely arrive in your predetermined SZ BEFORE THE FIRE ARRIVES.
There was NO logical basis for the GMHS to LEAVE their perfectly good SZ when they did. And their twisting the use of an Escape Route to LEAVE a SZ makes no sense. You use and Escape Route to get TO a SZ, NOT from a SZ.
Well… I think you just supported what I said. You just said that WUI SZ’s are never supposed to be 2 miles away?
WTKTT,
You are right. I guess I did support what you were saying because the YHF was predominately all WUI which calls for SZ locations to be within minutes.
Reply to Robert the Second post
on December 15, 2014 at 9:40 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There was NO logical basis for the
>> GMHS to LEAVE their perfectly
>> good SZ when they did.
No, there wasn’t… but we left ‘logic’ behind a long time ago with regards to decisions people were making pretty much that entire weekend.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And their twisting the use of an Escape
>> Route to LEAVE a SZ makes no sense.
>>
>> You use an Escape Route to get TO
>> a SZ, NOT from a SZ.
Correct…
There is still NO evidence that those men felt ‘uncomfortable’ in any way up there in those acres and acres of cold black… and that might be the reason they were deciding to move to ANOTHER ‘Safety Zone’.
Unless Brendan McDonough ( or someone else ) can shed more light on their decision making process… that will probably remain one of the biggest mysteries.
WHAT became so important to 2 men other than being safe that they would agree between themselves to then lead 17 other men to what would turn out to be their deaths?
Again… what we KNOW…
1555 – Everyone at rest in safe black, taking photos.
1600 – Cory Ball told to scout dozer line near BSR
1604 – GM is now up and moving south to BSR
1616 – Someone calls GM and asks for status
1617 – Eric Marsh says ‘GM taking escape route’
1627 – Someone calls DIVSA, wants to know where GM is and what is taking so long to reach town.
1635 – SPGS1 Gary Cords KNOWS GM is either already at BSR or about to arrive and tells Tyson Esquibel to send an engine there to make sure they (quote) “get out safely”.
1637 – DIVSA (supposedly) calls Air Attack to confirm what he thought was a line-up flight for a retardant drop right near the same area where Cordes had told Ball to ‘scout a dozer line’.
1639 – First MAYDAY call from Jesse Steed.
WTKTT,
You posted “There is still NO evidence that those men felt ‘uncomfortable’ in any way up there in those acres and acres of cold black… and that might be the reason they were deciding to move to ANOTHER ‘Safety Zone’.”
There is NEVER a good reason to leave one perfectly good SZ for another. And certainly NOT when the GMHS supervisors decided to leave, when the fire behavior was pulsing at its strongest.
Brendan McDonough knows WHY they left.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on December 15, 2014 at 9:44 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Brendan McDonough knows WHY they left.
There’s really never been any doubt about that.
If Brendan does NOT know… then he wasn’t actually doing what he SAID he would be doing, was he?
He TOLD his Captain ( Jesse Steed ) that he would be ‘listening for a call’ the entire time he was separated from them just in case they needed something ( anything ).
He also told ADOSH that HIS BK portable had its ‘priority channel’ set to the GM intra-crew frequency. All day. No question.
Yea… Brendan heard it all.
.
**
** TRANSCRIPT OF AARON HULBURD’S (FINAL?) VIDEO – M2U00278
As it turns out… there IS some background conversation in this final video ( that we know of ) shot by Prescott off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd.
This video is only 8.512 seconds long… but at the very end someone says…
“The most lasting question will be…”
The video abruptly CUTS OFF before the next word is even said.
This video is *supposed* to be totally unredacted… but I actually find it highly unlikely that Aaron Hulburd would have cut his camera off at that exact moment OR that Hulburd would actually only shoot an 8.5 second video with his Helmet Camera. That wasn’t his ‘style’.
The person who was speaking sounds very much like BR Captain Trueheart Brown.
The voice is a ‘voice match’ for other recordings we have of Brown’s voice.
* M2U00278 – Start: 1946 ( 7:46 PM ) ( Approx ) – Length: 8.512 seconds
Short video shot near dark from back at the ‘descent point’.
The video looks back across the box canyon, the Boulder Springs Ranch,
and shows spot fires still burning over in the Glen Ilah area.
For June 30, 2013… in Central Arizona…
Sunrise: 5:22 AM
Sunset: 7:42 PM
From BR Captain Brown’s GPS data…
1945 – 34.221022, -112.781755 – 0101.493 – 01.15 – Heading west back up to ridge
1946 – 34.221279, -112.782115 – 0143.222 – 01.63 – Arrival back on two-track on top of ridge
1947 – 34.221816, -112.782378 – 0209.375 – 02.38 – Heading northwest on two-track now
TRANSCRIPT FOR M2U00278
—————————————————
Video length is 8.512 seconds
+0:01
(Foreground: Unknown): ( For the ?? )
+0:06
(Foreground: Unknown): The most lasting question’ll be… ( Video ends abruptly )
—————————————————
END OF VIDEO M2U00278
Followup…
I think the actual ‘takeaway’ from the discovery of this ‘final’ (partial) statement in (supposedly) Aaron Hulburd’s final video from that day would be that this actually constitutes *evidence* that there were no ‘secret revelations’ down at the deployment site amongst the men who assembled there.
Surely… as ANY of those firefighters were overlooking that scene the ‘lasting question’ in their minds was along the lines of “How in the HELL did they get caught HERE… and what the HELL were they trying to accomplish?”.
I think that actually IS what got ‘cut off’ at the end of this video and what we would have heard Captain Brown actually say.
No one was more involved in the discovery of the bodies and the sharing of information that took place shortly after that than Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown.
He was there at the site longer than any other (living) FF.
He walked EAST to the BSR with all FIVE FFs and DPS Medic Eric Tarr.
He was there at the BSR when the (three) ‘Incident Within an Incident’ people arrived.
He walked these three IWI commanders BACK to the deployment site.
He was THERE at the site as these IWI commanders had their own initial reactions.
For Captain Brown to then arrive back up at the top of the ridge where they had left their UTV’s and still have this ‘question’ in his mind just seems to indicate that at NO time while he was DOWN there and interacting with all the other FFs and the IWI commanders did anyone really offer any kind of ‘explanation’ to that (quote) “lasting question”.
I think if someone HAD… we would have never heard Brown making this comment that he does at the end of this Hulburd video.
here is some of the photos—the camera battery died in course of obtaining photos PLUS she was evicted today- some of the local horseshit that is going on…so she had to go but there is more because I saw them over in the Helm’s area so SHE IS A PERSON OF INTEREST TO SEE AGAIN HOPEFULLY because she was evicted and she does not have the capabilities to get the rest to me—just by chance I caught here at the Yarnell Library and she came to me—I try not to go to people the way the politics are rolling—I may suggest the YHF topic in certain spots but not in the Yarnell library…she had 213 in just the one file and only got 76 items off it of the YHF topic…
the link file belongs to Yarnell resident just got evicted; Jolene Aikman Verizon 4GLte Beats Audio LTC really banged up phone.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jt66qfs77la0fbh/IMAG0052.jpg?dl=0
Bob Powers says
DECEMBER 12, 2014 AT 9:01 PM
Sonny or Joy
Just for curiosity— Did anyone rehab the Dozer lines? Like water bars and seeding or are they as they left them??????
The dozer line remains the same but Don Mason here in Yarnell said seeding was done throughout the community more in town vs state land areas.
Followup…
>> On December 12, 2014 AT 9:01 PM, Bob Powers asked…
>>
>> Just for curiosity— Did anyone rehab the Dozer lines?
>> Like water bars and seeding or are they as they left them??????
On July 26, 2013, Arizona Forestry send some DOC crews to Yarnell to do some ‘rehab’… but their focus was only the deployment site itself. There had been heavy rains in the area and they were installing ‘water bars’ and over 400 sandbags to help keep the site from flooding.
From KTAR ( Arizona ) article…
Prison Firefighting Crew and Others Working to Protect Hallowed Ground in Yarnell
http://ktar.com/22/1651407/Prison-firefighting-crew-and-others-working-to-protect-hallowed-ground-in-Yarnell
From the article…
———————————
YARNELL — Almost one month after the Yarnell Hill wildfire took the lives of 19 Granite Mountain hotshots, crews are at work trying to protect the site where they died from flooding out.
Yarnell received heavy rain Friday. Jim Paxon with the Arizona State Forestry said a 20-person firefighting crew from Lewis Prison along with others from various state agencies have moved into the canyon to place 400 sandbags where the 19 firefighters deployed their shelters on June 30.
“All of that water has to go somewhere,” Paxon said. “There’s no brush, grass, vegetation to hold the water back. This is steep country. It comes out of these canyons with a lot of velocity.”
The prison crew helping deploy sandbags Friday was on the Yarnell Hill fire Saturday June 29 and worked through June 30. The Lewis crew is one of five prison firefighting teams. Four made up of all men, the other crew is all women.
———————————
Same reporting as above… but THIS report actually has HELICOPTER footage of the actual work that was taking place out at the deployment site.
You can see the flooding at the deployment site… and what they were trying to do about it. The ‘water bars’ that they also placed on the northwest side of the fenced area can still be seen in the current ‘Google Maps’ satellite imagery of the deployment site area.
I count at least 30 or 32 men on the ground there in the HELICOPTER footage and at least 3 vehicles there at the deployment site.
WBTV (3) News
Yarnell Hill Fire: Sandbags Placed Near Firefighters’ Memorial
http://www.wbtv.com/story/22942186/yarnell-residents-prepare-for-flooding
WTKTT and JOY thanks some interesting information.
Marti-
you will be PROUD. Sonny and I took the time out to learn how to dropbox…John Dougherty will be proud too.
It is something we had not thought of because we simply just emailed you all the material and let you figure it out but the photos Jolene Aikman just started to download came on the pc and I have limited time before pc shuts down automatically so I am hurrying to figure out a way to get them up without having to remember email log-ins and so there you have it- her camera is broke and I can share that photo on Sunday of her phone condition.of the phone I took with my phone…all the files did not make it to pc but have no clue what yet came up but I finally have one completed task best we could due to her phone…yet she and I both saw more photos on her phone that we know DID NOT make it to the pc.
Let me go figure out how to link the files to here.
be back.
State land, Private and only 3% Federal —I don’t think they had time to do much dozing once the fire blew up. It was encouraged with up to 45 mile per hour gusts and you can see those trees swaying from the winds. Considering that there is only about three miles from the actual place of beginning to Yarnell and that fired had worked it down the mountain a good mile toward Peeples Valley then it was within Yarnell probably only a couple miles by 2 PM. Now once that wind switched violently they said that burn was moving at about 11mph. That means Yarnell only had a window of about 10 minutes if that wind had went directly at Yarnell. It did not however, but was almost completely reversed as far as I could tell from where we were going over the mountain. I don’t have access to the wind pattern but it appears that it had a more south eastwarly direction at first but then mountains and those ridges in the lower elevations such as the ridge to the north of the basin and the ridge to the south of the basin would divide currents of wind and cause some turbulence so that directions down low would be differently divided than those currents going over the mountain. Going toward Yarnell then we see they would have had a bit more time than those men in the basin– that fire going uphill with the heat helping its progress directly toward those men had to be much faster than the fire going on the level and at an angle to Yarnell proper. I wonder if 11 mph is just what the state is saying or rather in fact that uphill draft of fire might have been more on the order of 22 mph. That would mean once they saw it coming at them from around the north ridge, the fire only had about 3/4 mile of burn and they had only 2 minutes at 22 mph or if the state is right at 11 minutes they had only 4 minutes. Looking at the brush they moved maybe an estimate could be made. My estimate would be that they only had time to make their way to the boulders– apparently
WTKTT—Brought this to the Top
Gust wanted to note that at least 2/3 of this Fire was on private Land.
It started on State and burned out into private so the fire overhead had some problems with any thing they did on the Private land. Actually building Dozer line north of Glen Isla was all private Not sure how many owners involved but they had a huge problem with just dg a 30 ft. Dozer push with out authority from land owners. It is crazy but on non public lands you are restrained by private property rules. Something I just started talking about today.
I noted Sonny or Joy said something about a home owner that was upset with a Dozer push on his property. So I would assume some Private Property Owners would not allow a Dozer line thru their property, it happens a lot in wild land fire suppression. So their open land burns and you move on.
As a wild land fire suppression organization you are tied to private property rules and it can be a huge road block. And can end in huge law suits if you just bowl thru private property regardless of the emergency.
So I am saying just another thing that with out prior approval could stop a dozer line dead in its tracks. I did not realize how much private land was involved on this fire till I checked the Map.
I would suggest the Team had a lot more problems.
Check out this comprehensive and extensive document ( pages) titled “Wildland Fire Protection and Response in the United States – The Responsibilities, Authorities, and Roles of Federal, State, Local, and Tribal Government” compiled and written by The International Association of Fire Chiefs (IAFC), Donald K. Artley, Contractor, August, 2009.
https://www.iafc.org/files/wild_MissionsProject.pdf
Very informative and should shed some light on what Bob Powers is referring to.
159 pages
I just read through that report:
“Wildland Fire Protection and Response in the United States – The Responsibilities, Authorities, and Roles of Federal, State, Local, and Tribal Government” compiled and written by The International Association of Fire Chiefs (IAFC), Donald K. Artley, Contractor, August, 2009.
Thanks a lot for that post. Very interesting.
Within the “Arizona Appendix” under
Arizona State Forestry Division Wildland Fire Protection: (page 7 of the Appendix)
It says, among a number of things:
“Authorities:
• Respond to wildfires on any lands in the state, regardless of whether or not an
agreement is in place, if the State Forester determines that suppression actions are
in the best interests of this state or are immediately necessary to protect state
lands.
• Enter private lands in performing fire suppression duties.”
That sounds to me like the State Forester has the authority to
• Enter private lands in performing fire suppression duties.”
That sounds to me like it has the authority to put a dozer line where it deems necessary.
It also says, just before that:
“Responsibilities: Arizona Revised Statutes 37-623 (Suppression of wildfires; powers and duties of State Forester; entry on private lands.)
• The State Forester has the responsibility for wildfire suppression outside of
incorporated municipalities, subject to a cooperative agreement. If the State has a
signed agreement with a local fire district or volunteer fire department, then it is
required to provide services as defined in the agreement. Through its programs,
the Forestry Division protects approximately 22.4 million acres of state and
private lands.”
Yep. No other way to read that other than basically Arizona Forestry Employees ( temp contractors included ) can basically do whatever the hell they want and they don’t need your permission.
That will get interesting in the property damage lawsuits.
Just because someone wrote that into some document… does that mean it is actually lawful and binding?
WTKTT said:
Just because someone wrote that into some document… does that mean it is actually lawful and binding?
Arizona Revised Statutes = the law of the land in Arizona
Ah…okay… yes… thanks. I thought that was just in some IAFC document appendix or something but it does seem to be codified AZ law.
I still under how these ‘ implied permissions’ are going to play out with the people that had their lots flattened ( without their permission ) AFTER the fire.
Smartphone spell checker strikes again. ‘under’ should have been ‘wonder’.
I do not know about Arizona but the FS and BLM
Go back after the fire and put in water Bars and reseed
Dozer lines and repair any other damages.
Also if Municipalities have any other written agreements with private property owners those as well have to be followed.
Good Catch Marti I did not see that last night so that would make a difference in Arizona and suppression Tactics.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 12, 2014 at 2:44 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I do not know about Arizona but the FS
>> and BLM Go back after the fire and put in
>> water Bars and reseed Dozer lines and
>> repair any other damages.
I don’t see anything in the Arizona Law that REQUIRES Arizona Forestry to do any of that…
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/37/00623.htm&Title=37&DocType=ARS
…but that doesn’t mean they don’t try.
I mean… c’mon. It’s the right thing to do once you willy-nilly tear up someone’s property due to some obscure line item in some obscure ‘fire fighting’ statute that very few Arizona property owners are probably even aware exists.
Sonny or Joy
Just for curiosity— Did anyone rehab the Dozer lines? Like water bars and seeding or are they as they left them??????
Yep. Statute. I think there’s various versions of that type of law on the books in various places. But, according to the report, it all varies a lot, also.
Also, there WAS a “Yavapai County Community Wildfire Protection Plan” very much in place. It’s in “K- Reference Docs -no redactions.pdf.” It included Yarnell.
I’m having some trouble finding anything more detailed about that, unfortunately, becuz I’m having trouble with the Adobe Reader plug-in for my Safari today, and I’m too busy doing other stuff to reboot.
But that was the basis for the BLM 2009-2014 grant related to Yarnell’s unfinished fuels mitigation and defensive fire-line construction project.
The nuance I’ve noticed is there is a difference between ASDF having “authority” and “responsibility.”
Without a Wildfire Protection Plan, ASDF is only “authorized” to fight fires on private land. But it doesn’t HAVE to, unless it deems it essential to protect state interests.
However, WITH a Wildfire Protection Plan, ASDF is “responsible” for fighting fire on private lands within that Wildfire Protection Plan. It’s legally REQUIRED for them to do that, via that statute.
So given that, I’m guessing, when Yarnell joined the Yavapai County Wildfire Protection Plan, that WAS, as somebody here postulated, when the various private landholders were brought into that Agreement.
Because, in order for the Plan to statutorily PROTECT them, they had to AGREE to the terms, i.e. ASDF not only COULD, but HAD TO, be able to operate on their land-holdings.
So, no, they won’t be able to get any $$$ for dozer lines (or probably retardant dumps, either).
And, probably (I would guess), that Plan would also protect ASFD from complaints about the ASFD Duty-Officer-Cum-Type4-Incident-Commander Musser exercising his authority and responsibiity to determine the nature and timing of the Initial Attack, no matter what the Congress Fire Department folks complained about later.
I don’t know who it was (probably the Yarnell Fire Chief) who determined the fire was beyond the capability of local resources to respond to, and then called in the higher powers. But once that happened, it was ASFD’s game.
By the way, when Yarnell entered into that Plan, it was Anderson who was the Fire Chief and was the point-man for Yarnell for making that happen.
So there’s that.
Brain Fart. Not Musser, but Shumate.
Acutal codified AZ legislation is here…
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/37/00623.htm&Title=37&DocType=ARS
Item G under this Article 1, Chapter 2.1 of
Title 37 – Public Lands ) says…
——————————————
G. The state forester may enter private lands in performing the duties under this section.
——————————————
That would appear to only allow carte-blanche ENTRY onto provide lands but the ‘performing the duties under this section would automatically include the item ABOVE it…
——————————————
A. The state forester shall have authority to prevent and suppress any wildfires on state and private lands located outside incorporated municipalities
——————————————
So the SUPPRESS authority ( and whatever it takes to do that ) would automatically follow the ENTRY authority specifically established later on with Item G.
Bottom Line: If there WAS any kind of ‘plan’ starting to come together late afternoon on June 30, 2013 to push more dozer line ( across private property ) to protect Glen Ilah… SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( or whoever was having the ‘idea’ and/or ‘plan’ ) didn’t need to waste one second worrying about obtaining any ‘permissions’.
Thanks for that link!
Reply to Bob Powers post December 11, 2014 at 5:22 pm
Mr. Powers… I am sure everything you are pointing out is true… and ‘by the book’., including the other stuff down below about EPA regulations, State Historic Societies, Archaeologists, and a host of other people all wanting to have ‘input’ before someone just starts digging up ground with a bulldozer. Makes sense.
However… I also don’t see ANY evidence that ANYONE associated with fire command in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 ( and beyond ) gave one hoot in crap about ANY of that.
Only thing that comes even remotely close is when the dozer came across that ‘locked white gate’ in the middle of that cutover road ( which ran through a lot of PRIVATE property )… instead of just destroying it… the dozer just blasted AROUND it and left the thing intact complete with lock and chain.
The complaint you are referring to from down below came from Sonny… and it was about some property owners in the MIDDLE of the Glen Ilha subdivision returning from the long term evacuation and finding that someone had totally levelled their homesite with a dozer… destroying ANY chance of them recovering ANYTHING of value from it. They were not notified or informed or approached for ANY permission for them to do that.
I believe that happened to any number of other property owners as they were ‘evacuated’ and away from their properties.
And YES… I believe anyone who had that done to them is now part of the 100+ property damage lawsuits that have been filed.
So.. can YOU find anything in the public record that indicates ANYONE in Yarnell was paying ANY attention to ANY of the things you are now ‘pointing out’ about how you are *supposed* to go about utilizing a dozer on a wildfire?
I think this might be one more case where you are ( and rightly so ) pointing out what SHOULD have happened… but I still contend there were many, many things happening in Yarnell that were no where near CLOSE to being ‘by the book’.
I think ‘the book’ was somewhere sitting with the ‘Action Plan’ and all the MAPS that should have been handed out to people working the fire.
In other words… somewhere where no one could find it.
Bottom line… I think if there HAD been a plan to push and emergency dozer line there to try and protect Yarnell… SPGS1 Gary Cordes was not going to give a shit about anything of the things you are saying he was supposed to. He would have ( excuse the pun ) PLOWED AHEAD ( no time to lose ) and dealt with any ‘whining’ after the fact.
Nicely stated,total agreement.
Were you agreeing with me or WTKTT????
The Real problem is that all Fire agencies and their Teams are charged with these rules and if not followed are subject to law suits and removal of their ratings as type 1,2,3 Team overhead I can guarantee you on federal land if you do Dozer line it has to be cleared by Archeologists. If you cross private land you better have a written agreement with the land owner before you go thru fences or gates. with a dozer.
If as you say they were just plowing ahead then the State is Liable for all damages
Fire teams train not to do that and get access on private property.
I trained and lived with this for 33 years you need to do some research before you jump off of that cliff.
It is not what should be done but what is mandatory of wild land fire suppression responsibilities. In the west there are a lot of property owners that do not believe the Government all forms have any right on there property with out their express permission. Some areas wont even allow Dozers to build fire line and only Hand tools are allowed.
So if you believe Arizona state Fire has a right to plow thru private property with out permission you are wrong and again all Teams are trained in working with the property owners. Why –To eliminate Law suits.
I hear what you are saying Bob, but I don’t believe this team eliminated lawsuits with their actions-or lack of.
OK I can agree with that but they had to be operating under some kind of State protocol. I have understood the IC was well qualified and Certified.
at the Type 2 level which means he had some certification training.
To answer WTKTT below here.
The Local Fire Marshal would be doing the contact and getting the permission that is usual the local county fire assignment but we do not have that info one way or the other.
I doubt the public record would contain that info.
Were the Fire Team suppose to do the pre work yes did thy on the dozer line they worked on most of the day I don’t know, It could have been a verbal with County Fire Marshal?
Again Ball would not have been doing that under his job assignment. Or Cordis. The IC would be working with local County Fire Marshal or a person of that caliber to have them working with the private land owners to get what ever permission they needed.
I would not know where to start looking if there is no agreement in the records.
So I will bow to your superior Fire knowledge and your years of experience in building Line with Dozers and all of your previous experience with Coop agreements for Fire Suppression between agencies.
Which by the way all of the above I have and IC Mouser has been trained as well. So if he was not following State Procedures and Team protocol then The state better have really deep pockets.
I have a hard time believing the Team was operating in that fashion they had more experience than that. There is a lot more to Managing a Fire than just Fighting it. The Word Is MANAGE.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The IC would be working with local County Fire Marshal
>> or a person of that caliber to have them working with
>> the private land owners to get what ever permission
>> they needed.
Copy that.
Most of the two-tracks that they were trying to improve that day were actually ALREADY (originally) ‘cut’ as part of a ‘fire plan’ anyway.
In his interview with InvestigativeMEDIA ( Specifically Mr. John Dougherty himself )… former Yarnell Chief Peter Andersen said those ‘two-tracks’ were cut some years before as the result of an evaluation of ‘evacuation routes’ in the event of a disaster such as exactly what was happening on June 30, 2013.
That VIDEO interview is HERE on YouTube…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFObh-fNOl8
Chief Andersen did a study and they realized that in the even of a really bad wildfire… they needed to have ‘alternate escape routes’ for citizens to either ‘escape’ from the Glen Ilah area up to the Yarnell area… or vice versa.
So that is what that actual ‘Cutover Trail’ was all about… and it WAS cut through what is essentially all ‘private property’.
So I am assuming when they cut that original ‘Cutover Trail’ between Sesame area and Shrine road… Chief Andersen DID have the time to obtain whatever ‘permissions’ were needed to do that.
What I am wondering, then, is whether some of the property owners in the area actually did sign some kind of ‘standing agreements’ that in the case of an emergency… firefighters had some kind of ‘carte-blanche’ permission to do whatever they needed to do, when the time came.
If those agreements were ‘on file’ with the Yarnell Fire Department… then the Yarnell Fire Chief on June 30, 2013 ( Jim Koile ) would probably have been already aware of them.
As it turns out… we know now that Jim Koile had an assignment as the “Medical Officer’ for the Type 2 Short Team and he was stationed up there most of the day at the ICP at the Model Creek Elementary school.
That’s where Roy Hall was ensconced in the principal’s office just totally absorbed with the resource ordering for TOMORROW.
So I suppose its possible that if anybody ( like SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) was giving a crap about ‘permissions’ that day… he might have been able to just check with YFD Chief Jim Koile about it.
I doubt it… but as you can see… even I’m not 100 percent sure there weren’t scenarios where it MIGHT have been happening.
Rest assured that I UNDERSTAND your reluctance to admit that there was any possibility DIVSA Eric Marsh could have even been AWARE of this ‘thinking’ or ‘planning’ on SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ part for any kind of last-ditch effort there near Glen Ilah.
There is NO direct evidence that DIVSA Eric Marsh even HEARD these ‘orders’ going out to HEQB Cory Ball… even though they WOULD have been ‘going out’ over a TAC channel that DIVSA should have been able to hear.
There is also NO direct evidence (yet) that Gary Cordes made a cellphone call to DIVSA explaining ‘the plan’.
I ( me, personally ) am just still keeping an ‘open mind’ about it and I am looking ( as you are ) for that ‘next piece of evidence’ that *might* shed more light on this.
I believe it remains a *possible* explanation why 19 Hotshots *might* have been moving from an absolutely safe location to a place where they all ended up dying.
WTKTT
I needed a time out I was not cool last night and I apologize.
You stated above what I was getting at. The Two traks could have been access areas agreed to with land owners and used to build Dozer lines. My main concern was just doing a Dozer push out thru the middle of no where following nothing.
I am sure you hit on what I was getting at that there had been some local work to get agreements in place all I was saying that those agreements needed to be followed before Dozer lines were put in.
So I will leave it there and move on but still looking for more facts to GM’s move.
Copy that. No apology necessary.
This all got resolved up above as Marti found the actual Arizona LEGISLATION that allows Arizona Forestry to basically do whatever the hell they want WITHOUT having to obtain any pesky permissions from anyone at all.
That codified Arizona LAW is here…
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/37/00623.htm&Title=37&DocType=ARS
So the bottom line here is that IAOI ( If And Only If ) there really was any kind of real ‘plan’ coming together to push some emergency dozer line there to protect Glen Ilah in the late afternoon… SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( or whoever was really pushing ‘the plan’ ) didn’t have to waste one single second asking for any ‘permissions’.
Not in Arizona, anyway.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So I will leave it there and move on but
>> still looking for more facts to GM’s move.
Me too.
yes – organize the choas, develop and impliment a plan based on solid strategy and tactics and manage the incident.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 11, 2014 at 7:10 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> So if you believe Arizona state Fire has a right to plow thru
>> private property with out permission you are wrong and
>> again all Teams are trained in working with the property
>> owners. Why –To eliminate Law suits.
Again… I am sure your ‘what SHOULD have happened’ information is totally correct. I am trying to point out to you what DID ( and did NOT ) happen on June 30, 2013.
There is NO EVIDENCE SPGS1 Gary Cordes contacted ANY land owners in the Yarnell area for ANY of the ‘dozer work’ that was done that day… nor would he have bothered to do so for any *additional* dozer work, had he had the chance to order it done that afternoon.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
You can SEE exactly who owned all the parcels being bulldozed that day for ‘line work’. with an easy-to-use online tool…
Yavapai County Tax Assessor’s Online Website
Interactive Parcel Search/Information map.
http://gis.yavapai.us/v4/
You can just ‘zoom around’ all of Yavapai County, including all of Yarnell, and just ‘click’ on parcels to see who the registered owner is.
** THE ‘CUTOVER’ TRAIL ( BULLDOZED LINE BREAK )
The EAST 3/4 of it was on ‘Private Land’ pacel 203-05-001A belonging to…
Owner: S&P FAMILY TRUST
Owner’s Mailing Address:
13020 PACIFIC PROMENADE UNIT 405
PLAYA VISTA, CA 900944020
Secondary Owner: CHUNG JACKIE J SURVIVING TTEE
The other WEST 1/4 of it was on ‘Private Land’ parcel 203-05-003H
Owner: BALUCO TRUST
Owner’s Mailing Address:
PO BOX 98 YARNELL, AZ 853620098
Secondary Owner: N/A
The BALUCO TRUST parcel not only included the western 1/4 of the ‘Cutover Trail’… it also includes pretty much ALL of the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area where both the Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge Carriers were parked AND it extends down to that area to the south where the loboy trailer for the dozer was staged all day and where the Blue Ridge Chase Truck ( with UTV trailer ) was also staged all day.
If the dozer had just started plowing land due southwest from where its loboy trailer was staged directly towards the Boulder Springs Ranch… there are basically only TWO private parcels it would been going through to make it all the way to the outcroppings at the northeast corner of the Boulder Springs Ranch.
The parcel just due WEST of where the loboy was staged was…
Parcel Number: 203-05-003E
Owner: LICHTY JEFFREY W FAMILY TRUST
Owner’s Mailing Address:
8901 ALLEN RD CLARKSTON, MI 48348
Secondary Owner: N/A
There are NO STRUCTURES on that entire parcel. Just boondock.
After going through that piece of property… the only parcel left that would have to be ‘touched’ to connect up to the BSR itself was, in fact, the northeast corner of the parcel that contains the Boulder Springs Ranch itself.
Parcel Number: 203-05-003L
Owner: HELM HUGH L & DIANE J JT
Owner’s Mailing Address: PO BOX 128 YARNELL, AZ 85362
Secondary Owner: N/A
There is nothing in the public evidence record to indicate SPGS1 Gary Cordes, or HEQB Cory Ball, or ANYONE in fire command made ANY attempt to contact either the S&P FAMILY TRUST or the BALUCO TRUST owners when SPGS1 Cordes ordered the dozer to just start plowing ahead on THOSE pieces of private property…
…so I doubt anything would have been any different down there to the southwest IAOI ( If And Only If ) they had ‘gone ahead’ with any plans to push a dozer line in THAT area.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes would have probably just ‘given the word’ to go ahead ASAP ( just like he did with that ‘Cutover Trail’ late afternoon ) and Ball and the dozer would have just started ‘plowing’ that private property.
I suppose all of this WILL come out when all the 100+ property damage suits have their day in court… and the property owners who had their private property all torn to shit with a bulldozer that day can try to recover for those specific damages…
…but on THAT day ( June 30, 2013 )… SPGS1 Gary Cordes was NOT doing any of the ‘checking’ that you say is ‘mandatory’.
He just WASN’T.
PS: Unless YOU can find any evidence of that in the public record.
I can’t… but if you find anything like that please let me know… including ( perhaps? ) some kind of ‘standing property owners agreement’ that they had to sign to allow this work to take place, if needed, WITHOUT their permission, or something?
I am ready to be 100 percent wrong here ( but I don’t think I am ).
See what I wrote above.
They were both AUTHORIZED and REQUIRED to fight the fire, whatever it took.
Saw it. Thank you, Marti.
It was a ‘side issue’ but an important one.
Bottom line is NO ONE had to waste one single second worrying about an ‘permissions’ that day. They could have pushed dozer line anywhere they wanted… any TIME they wanted.
Just point at the ground and tell the dozer to GO.
reply to Bob Power’s: “I noted Sonny or Joy said something about a home owner that was upset with a Dozer push on his property. So I would assume some Private Property Owners would not allow a Dozer line thru their property, it happens a lot in wild land fire suppression. So their open land burns and you move on.”
—————————————
The URL to view this parcel on the map is:
http://gis.yavapai.us/V4/map.aspx?search=203-04-081
and you can see seven properties between their place and the Helm’s so it was just odd they had damage done by bulldozer due to location of their home and who to go to for asking so I printed up state land foia and start there on a few topics. Gosh it does add up the funds for anyone who has bought FOIA information- God Bless you all because it can add up over time—huh—
I did post many times since this comment made it by Bob Powers days ago but I see it never made it here the update so I quickly did it by emails and some typos happened due to copy and paste that was originally to “J&D” but others got it thinking when I said “ugly J&D” some thought I had a concern with them. Nope just never changed their names to yours—simple error. I am confused by the recent topic with YFD but I am letting go as of yesterday for one someone who knows the individual feels it was not a ploy and I respect that person’s opinion and well because Brian Murphy cancelled his doctor appointment to support us at meeting —I let Pete Andersen and Dr. Leroy Anderson know I am going to the meeting after all. If anyone has questions for the local YFD- email me them so I can point it out Monday.
or use this link:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/17613+Westward+Dr,+Yarnell,+AZ+85362/@34.21781,-112.764711,772m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x80d3304c99643251:0x7a2ad746b7f38ff9
the last link shows home before the fire and the assessor list does not–that was why I added both links.
I have Jolene Aikman present
and her phone is “smashed” but she did let me try and charge it while she is doing library time
it is charging and if it works it will cover Helms area as Johanna Montgomery is at Mike Bode’s location and only has Vanessa Purdy in between her and the Helms
I sure hope her photos are okay
worth the shot-
I will email everyone I normally do if they are okay her photos
the phone is in rough shape.
Thank you Jolene for taking the time to do this for the public.
You are an important area over there.
The URL to view this parcel on the map is:
http://gis.yavapai.us/V4/map.aspx?search=203-04-067
and
google
https://www.google.com/maps/place/17741+Foothill+Dr,+Yarnell,+AZ+85362/@34.2184637,-112.7657595,386m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x80d3304b7f17a551:0xb074371c1b7ec2a3
here is recent communication when Bob
powers mentioned to reach out to certain areas…here is the reply:
from: Stephen Tullos
to: “[email protected]”
cc: Barbara Fox-Thomas
date: Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 11:47 AM
subject: deaths in the Glen Ilah/Yarnell/Peeples Valley/Congress/Wilhoit since the fire?
The Board of Supervisors passed on your inquiry dated Dec. 5th 2014 regarding the number of deaths in the Glen Ilah/Yarnell/Peeples Valley/Congress/Wilhoit area since the fire. To date we have not received any information to raise our concerns regarding the number and types of deaths in this area.
We are pulling data for that area to see if there is a reason for additional study.
I want to thank you for your concern, and we will keep you posted on the outcome.
Stephen C. Tullos
Director/Health Officer
Yavapai County Community Health Services –
1090 Commerce Drive
Prescott, AZ 86305
Office: 928-442-5966
As of last week, Brendan McDonough has obtained a Criminal Attorney, and he is working with the AZ State Attorney General. We may see something about this by mid to late January, at the earliest.
Thanks, RTS. I can’t really think of a good reason why Brendan would feel the need to retain a ‘Criminal Attorney’, unless the counsel he had just isn’t all that familiar with actual court proceedings and whatnot.
Only scenario I can think of is that Brendan really does NOT want to have to actually ‘testify’ at any court proceeding(s) ( and be subject to any direct questioning and/or cross-examination ) and he is just trying to go the ‘deposition only’ route… but the attorneys for the plaintiffs are NOT fully agreeing to that.
It could also be that Brendan is still trying to maintain ( like he did with all his media interviews ) that there are some things he absolutely will refuse to talk about and/or some questions he might be asked that he is absolutely going to refuse to answer.
That gets problematic in terms of being called to the witness stand.
You can ONLY assert your 5th amendment rights if you feel the testimony you are being asked to supply will, in some way, tend to ‘self-incriminate’.
You CANNOT invoke your own 5th amendment rights just because you don’t want to reveal something you know or because you have your own ‘agenda’ and you are trying to ‘protect’ someone ELSE.
That can result in actual ‘contempt of court’ charges… and maybe the counsel Brendan had just didn’t feel fully ‘up to speed’ in that area. A Criminal Attorney would be.
Who knows.
I suppose we’ll find out.
It is NOT looking very likely that the Arizona Attorney General’s request to the Arizona District Court that the ‘wrongful death’ suits be ‘dismissed’ is going to be successful.
I was trying to imagine where that dozer line could have been to protect Glen Isla– There was the old dozer track that went west from the Helms place past the pond just to the west of Helms that went up a narrow canyon still continuing up the canyon. That actually was the two track that had been bulldozed back when the 67 or 68 fire had happened.
Yes there was no way they could have made it– that canyon behind the cattle pond was extremely steep and narrow–a perfect funnel and as near as that fire was at even 1;30 OR 1330 if you prefer–their chances of getting the dozer operation out of that canyon in time would have been slim to none.. But indeed that must have been their thinking if Steed dropped down to meet Marsh.
Seems indeed they were thinking that from they could maybe do something by dozing from the Helms that direction, and then all hell broke loose in a different direction when the wind switched channels– what were those men thinking?
They heard the weather reports then crossed their fingers and in spite of seeing all hell had broken loose early before 1100 hours on Sunday went down to play Russian roulette. It was simply that the atom bomb had happened early but those fellows really had believed their feeble attempts to outwit nature would suffice to save a few structures–as Donut would put it, those fire regulations are hill billy, yet this old hill billy would say they make hillbilly sense to me–we can defy gravity that is perhaps somewhere between earth and the moon.
Joy and I will attend the next fire meeting. Seems that we have been getting a lot of flack lately for our participation–Hiking people up there–a crime to several in the cadre here–They can commit a crime of hiking without passes–we have ours legal as all get out–yet many of these hike without what the law requires–Joy has photos of certain people that are complete law breakers on that matter–yet these authorities seem to be beyond the law themselves.
Seems like a set up after all–but it might backfire.
Whew we hear that one of these fellows even wanted to sue the United Way because they could not hold the free stuff they gave him longer than a year. Talk about an ingrate.
Joy and I delivered almost 500 United Way packages to people who were in Yarnell. Because we had a truck at the time, we delivered furniture, etc free of charge. United Way was good enough to give us gas vouchers in some instances on that.
There were people out of Prescott, Chris. Crystal, Laura, Meredith, Dawn, Jack, and many others I cannot name who freely gave of their time and money and vehicles to help those that had either lost homes or just needed help after the fire. Talk about United Way, and these people were the first to step up to the plate, even providing motel rooms and temporary housing for some. The Red Cross did much as well and took care of those in shelters after being evacuated. We enjoyed some of that help ourselves during evacuation–maybe we paid back some by our efforts after Yarnell and Peeples Valley were opened up again.
We even got evicted from my Oak Park Motel apartment #15 because our work was not sanctioned by the manager there. She kicked out a total of nine–Did they think they would be able to up the rent because of construction worker influx?
Cris and another man from United Way witnessed the eviction and could not believe how some people can be so hard hearted during a tragedy. Joy and I stayed on the desert after that and I remained homeless for about a year after–but we were resourceful and are back.
That is life, and we wonder how people can cover up so much in a tragedy.
But now we have a local fire department that resents our hiking people up in the area to access this thing? They ought to be ashamed of that. This nation is built on freedom to know and investigate the truth–when authority become awry the people need to know. To hide the routes and what was done on that mountain and the errors of that day would be a travesty.
In instances where people who are directly involved in uncovering and concerning themselves with what really went on were denied accessibility to the area and came to us–we hiked them indeed and indeed will hike more.. They needed to know the routes and what took place there, when and where–the why they want to know and are like the people on this site are getting to it.
Those that we hiked that do not contribute here, none the less, watch this site and use the information they are getting here. Several are journalists, some are investigators and others are loved ones and friends who are damned tired of the BS they have been fed by those that had their own agendas or else were afraid of loss.
Reply to Sonny post December 11, 2014 at 11:11 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> I was trying to imagine where that dozer line could have been
>> to protect Glen Isla– There was the old dozer track that went west
>> from the Helms place past the pond just to the west of Helms that
>> went up a narrow canyon still continuing up the canyon. That actually
>> was the two track that had been bulldozed back when the 67
>> or 68 fire had happened.
Well… since SPGS1 Gary Cordes never once even mentioned that he told Blue Ridge Hotshot Coy Ball ( who was acting HEQB assigned to the dozer that day ) to do this ‘scouting’ for a last minute defensive dozer push… and the ADOSH investigators never had a chance to even ASK him any questions about it…
…we really don’t know what SPGS1 Gary Cordes might have even had in mind.
Cordes had ‘scouted’ that general area the night before… but it was pitch dark.
However… the morning briefing… we KNOW that Gary Cordes was looking over satellite maps of that area with Eric Marsh… because THAT is when Cordes pointed out the Boulder Springs Ranch to Marsh and TOLD him it was his ‘predetermined safety zone’ that day.
So we don’t know what kind of ‘mental map’ SPGS1 Gary Cordes really had of the area… but he DID take at least one good look at it that morning on actual SATELLITE maps.
The thing to remember is that all this ‘line building’ stuff is NOT usually designed to stop a fireline dead in its tracks. It is usually ‘designed’ to just influence the MOVEMENT of a fireline and try to make it go AROUND things, if at all possible.
Example: Even all that dozer work on the ‘Cutover Trail’ and the work being done in Harper Canyon by those 6 firefighters ( who also almost lost their lives that day ) was not designed to stop the oncoming fireline ‘dead in its tracks’. All that work was being done in the hopes of redirecting the fireline out to the natural firebreak that was Highway 89 itself.
There is actually PROOF in the ‘evidence record’ that this is exactly what the Blue Ridge Hotshots thought they were doing with that ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer line work.
The following is from Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown’s official ‘Unit Log’.
Here he is describing this late afternoon assignment from SPGS1 Gary Cordes to create a ‘line’ along that ‘Cutover Trail’ that connected the Sesame clearing area over to the Youth Camp on Shrine Road.
Notice that Captain Brown points out that the real OBJECTIVE was to just try to get the fire to ‘skirt along’ that line and HERD it ( redirect it ) out to Highway 89…
——————————————————————————
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes) calls and requests the dozer to put in a piece of line off the main 2 track to the north that will tie into a road called Shrine by the Youth Camp.
…
(HEQB Cory Ball and the dozer ) finishes this assignment.
…
I get the crew lined out ( on the dozer line ).
I continue hiking ( to the east ) as the crew begins working.
My intent was to get to a high point on a rock area to the north of the Dozer line / Youth Camp and see if there was any way to get fire AROUND the structures and out to Highway 89 OFF the dozer line.
This was our current thinking at the time.
To bring fire down the original 2 track to the north and then HERD it AROUND
the town and OUT to the Highway.
————————————————————————–
So I imagine whatever Gary Cordes might have been thinking or planning for Glen Ilah was similar.
It was how to try to get the fire to go AROUND the Glen Ilah subdivsion instead of passing right THROUGH it.
If you look at a satellite map of the Glen Ilah area… you can easily see that ‘clearing’ at the south end of the Sesame area where the bulldozer ‘loboy’ trailer was staged. This is where the dozer itself is believed to have been ‘staged’ at the time when Gary Cordes told HEQB Cory Ball to ‘scout out a dozer line’ in that area to try and protect Glen Ilah.
This ‘clearing’ is right there just west of the point where the paved part of both Lakewood and Manzanita ends and then becomes that ‘dirt’ road heading north into the Sesame area.
Just west ( and a little south ) of that clearing is fairly wide ‘dry creek bed’. THAT *could* have been used as part of the defensive line at that time. That ‘dry creek bed’ goes WEST for a few hundred yards and then there is a point where there is a ‘clearing’ that could have connected SOUTH directly to the DRIVEWAY of the Boulder Springs Ranch itself.
The satellite images show that the long, totally cleared DRIVEWAY leading out to the Boulder Springs Ranch itself would have been an excellent fire break. It was already wider than anything that had been being considered an adequate ‘firebreak’ at any other time that day… including the ‘Cutover Trail’ that the dozer had already pushed over to the Youth Camp.
Would it have worked?
Who knows. There was eventually so much SPOTTING associated with that fire moving into the Glen Ilah area that its doubtful any kind of ‘dozer line’ would have made any difference…
…but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t at least have beeb a valid PLAN circa 1600 ( 4:00 PM ) and before that fire blew up like an atom bomb.
If Cory Ball hadn’t gotten ‘sidetracked’ and ‘hung up’ over in Yarnell while delivering the Blue Ridge Chase Truck over to the Ranch House Restaurant… and they had ‘gone ahead’ with this emergency dozer push… it certainly wouldn’t have been the first ‘assignment’ that day that didn’t look like it had much of a chance of stopping anything… but they were working hard on it, anwyay.
http://prescott.craigslist.org/lbg/4753853341.html
I went to craigslist to read any ad I had on this 2014 and none of them say we will take anyone to any site where the men died.
people, people, people.
I truly would love for you to come forward and place your full name being you had NO PROBLEM involving YOUR slander/misinformation to the YCSO and them taking YOUR WORD to the extent when I said whoever told them gave her misinformation and she said “are you calling me a liar?” so really whoever you are you might THINK you have clout being you have the YCSO stand strong with you but I know the law and I did nothing wrong.
I also know some think they are above the law…but hey I am not going to be bullied in this topic—no way!
Come forward, coward!
We have a craigslist ad looking for misc things and we got a reply from a woman in Humboldt…when we get there to get items—SMALL WORLD—her son is married to Darrell Willis’s daughter and we learned some good stuff from her that we know we are on the right path…Higher ups, time for you to SPEAK UP! Can’t you see how God is orchestrating this…too funny! Now I can see why the confusion and diversion and local damage/destruction CREATION being done on the hikers…almost have to get this higher ups—you may have power and all but you DO NOT have the ALMIGHTY power that God is showing in His time!
HedzUp.
JD just posted, two days ago:
M2U00262.MPG
M2U00263.MPG
M2U00264.MPG
M2U00266R.mp4
For those who would rather look at “the originals” than downloads from YouTube.
PS I”ve been reading everything you all have been writing today, but haven’t had the time to reply to much of anything.
And thanks, all of you, for your responses to my question regarding “Slow Down, Skippy!!!”
I’m definitely reading them and definitely thinking about them.
Thanks for the Hedzup Marti.
I’m about to publish TIMESTAMPS for pretty much all 21 of the newly released Aaron Hulburd videos.
The ones that have ANY glimpse ( or presence ) of the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger have always been pretty much a ‘no brainer’ to timestamp. We have actual GPS satellite times for those because of BR Captain Brown’s constantly updating GPS unit.
The ones where the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger is actually MOVING have always been the easiest to timestamp.
That’s because of the way the GPS unit updating works.
It was only updating every 60 seconds all day… but when the timer expires and it goes to grab another satellite update… that only takes a fraction of a second.
So when the Polaris is MOVING and an GPS update happens… you can be sure that the exact position of the unit at that moment matches the exact Lat/Long that ends up in the update.
It’s only when the GPS Unit is NOT moving when you have to add the +/- 59 second ‘fudge factor’ to the timestamp.
When the GPS unit has gone from ‘moving’ to ‘stationary’… you can’t ever really be sure WHEN it actually went ‘stationary’. It might have been 1 second after the last GPS update… or the new update might have only happened some 57 or 58 seconds AFTER the unit became stationary.
The new Hulburd videos that do NOT feature the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger in them have been a little trickier to timestamp… but pretty much ALL of them have had at least one ‘anchor event’ depicted in them that is verifiable with other evidence with known timestamps.
A strange picture is emerging with these ‘timestamps’.
As already discussed… there are times when, based on what we can SEE Aaron Hulburd’s habit was as a ‘videophile’… there is no real logical explanation why he would ‘cut off’ his filming at some of the points where we are being led to believe he did.
Example: I can see no reason why we are NOT seeing video of the actual Granite Mountain Crew Carriers evacuating ahead of that last Blue Ridge Crew Carrier other than to think someone at US Forestry just didn’t want the families to SEE the Granite Mountain Crew Carriers passing by Hulburd’s camera EMPTY.
We KNOW that was ‘visible’ because in at least TWO places in the videos we CAN see… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd report that they ‘only say drivers’ in the GM Crew Carriers as they passed by.
More later.
Crap. Typo above in the last paragraph. I typed ‘say’ instead of ‘saw’.
Should have been…
We KNOW that was ‘visible’ because in at least TWO places in the videos we CAN see… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd report that they ‘only SAW drivers’ in the GM Crew Carriers as they passed by.
Copy.
And you already know what I think about these files being all “un-redacted.”
Good stuff from RTS and Kenneth Jordan. Joy, keep your chin up with the issues there.
SR,
My pleasure. Thanks, but since you are allegedly RTS and I am also RTS, then aren’t we merely thanking ourselves?
>> RTS said…
>> …aren’t we merely thanking ourselves?
Well… SOMEONE has to do it.
ROFL
You guys just plainly have a Twins case of double schizophrenia, obviously.
reply to SR says DECEMBER 10, 2014 AT 5:04 PM Joy, keep your chin up with the issues there.
————–
After talking with Theresa, G.E. gave us a lawyer who goes up against state and federal folks so it was very refreshing that same day to get such solid free legal advice for this upcoming meeting and indeed we will do as the person states. That person was intelligent beyond my own capabilities and I understand every point made and I will follow it. Makes perfect sense.
I emailed just a couple people some of the snap shots of people and vehicles and lic plates and paperwork because its not needed on here as we are just trying to let a few know we know we are being followed and the recent local stuff just awfully sad not needed because it has already caused division in some areas that hopefully does not jeopardize Sonny’s living arrangements over the one-sided information and just very sad.
SR- my chin is up. Smiles. I just did not know that moment what to do when someone “creates” a bad situation and it only has to be if there is an agenda behind it all is our take.
test6
Reply to calvin post on December 9, 2014 at 1:48 pm
NOTE: This exchange has been brought up from down below…
It contains a NEW transcript of yet another moment in the newly released Aaron Hulburd videos when Blue Ridge SUP Brian Frisby was telling “The Three Prescotteers” why Granite Mountain wasn’t in the Crew Carriers as they saw them go by.
—————————————————————————
On December 9, 2014 at 4:00 am, calvin said…
Wtk. It appears that Eric started scouting south around 1530, possibly. And I think it is possible that he was petty far south by the time MacKenzie shoots the video where we hear Steed updating him on the fires progression. I think that it is possible that the plan was actually developed around 1530. And I would also venture a guess that marsh was included in formulating the plan. By cell phone?
On December 9, 2014 at 10:31 am, WTKTT responded…
Calvin… make no mistake… I have ALWAYS thought this idea of last minute dozer line being directly related to why GM suddenly ‘gaggled up’ and left the safe black is totally possible… but where are you getting the idea that Marsh might have already been scouting SOUTH as early as 1530?
On December 9, 2014 at 1:48 pm, calvin responded…
Wtk. I am thinking that Frisby didn’t leave to go toe in with Eric until after Eric decided to go scout the trail to the south.. this comes per Frisby s account he gives to the prescotteers in the new video. I can’t remember the number off the top of my head
———————————————————————–
calvin… thanks for the good response. Yes. I know what you are referring to there.
That was Hulburd video M2U00271 shot after Frisby and Brown had returned to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot following the deployment and they were now on the ‘ground rescue mission’ and had just met up with the ‘Three Prescotteers’ again ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).
Here is that exchange… with the final quote from Frisby I believe you are referring to…
HULBURD VIDEO M2U00271
——————————————————–
+0:00
(Unknown – Jason Clawson?): Ask them if the black plume is where they are.
+0:02
( OPS2 Paul Musser ): …point just… uh… (down) here in Yarnell.
+0:13
(Unknown – Aaron Hulburd?): How many were in there?
+0:21
(Brian Frisby): They were sittin’ in cold black.
+0:23
(Trueheart Brown): They were in black.
+0:25
(Uknown – Aaron Hulburd?): (So) THAT’S what they were talking about? (The) Lookout?
+0:28
(Brian Frisby): No. No. (He’s) in black…
+0:30
(Unknown – KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): ( Overlapping with Frisby ) I heard that (one).
+0:31
(Brian Frisby): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge…
green… goes around. That lookout was down below. I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without
the… uh… I grabbed him. ( He’s out ).
————————————————————–
I can see what you are saying… but I’m honestly not sure myself that report from Frisby establishes anything ( TIME wise ) for when Marsh might have done anything in particular.
Can you explain a little more why you think it might?
Are you thinking the reason Frisby said this is because that’s what Marsh told him when he was asking him to come up for that second face-to-face? That WAS, in fact, circa 1530.
** THE ‘OTHER’ REPORT FROM FRISBY ABOUT GRANITE MOUNTAIN
What has actually been missed so far ( by everyone, it seems ) is that the transcript above is not the FIRST time in the new Hulburd videos where we can hear Brian Frisby explaining to Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell where he believes Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were… and what they were doing.
Video M2U00271 is actually the SECOND time ( in the new Hulburd videos ) when we hear BR SUP Brian Frisby telling the “Three Prescotteers” about Granite Mountain.
When Frisby and Brown first ‘drove up’ to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot and first met up with Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell… Jason Clawson asks Frisby right away “Where’s Jesse? We didn’t see ’em in the buggies”… and Frisby tells Clawson where he thought Jesse Steed and GM were at that moment and what they were doing.
This exchange comes at the very END of Hulburd video M2U00264.
It’s hard to hear because it is part of the ‘overspeak’ that was going on as these 5 men were greeting each other. They were all sort of speaking ‘on top of each other’… but if you listen very closely you can hear pretty much everything that is said in and around the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger that Frisby and Brown just pulled up in.
This ‘excerpt’ starting at +3:07 into video M2U00264 is the moment when Frisby and Brown have just pulled up to the “Prescotteers’ in the Polaris Ranger. The transcript goes to the END of video M2U00264 when Hulburd’s video abruptly ( and still, inexplicably ) ‘cuts off’…
—————————————————————————–
+3:07 ( 1636.30 / 4:36.30 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): (Greeting the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV as it arrives at the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot with BR SUP Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown onboard )
What time is it? Is it dark, or what?
+3:08 ( 1636.31 / 4:36.31 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): It IS dark ( up here ).
+3:09 ( 1636.32 / 4:36.32 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): How ya doin’, guy?
+3:12 ( 1636.35 / 4:36.35 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Fuckin’ makin’ sure idiots aren’t burnin’ themselves out. God DAMN.
+3:14 ( 1636.37 / 4:36.37 )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): We figured you guys were bringin’ up ( the rear ).
——————————————————————–
NOTE: The following conversation is taking place underneath
what KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd are saying to BR
Captain Brown. It appears to be Jason Clawson asking BR SUP
Brian Frisby where ‘Jesse Steed’ and GM are since they didn’t
see them in the GM buggies as they drove by moments before
this… and Frisby tells him…
——————————————————————–
+3:16 ( 1636.39 / 4:36.39 )
(Foreground: Jason Clawson?): ( To Frisby): Where’s Jesse? We didn’t seem ’em in the buggies.
NOTE: The words ‘in the black’ are clearly heard in Frisby’s response but whatver he says after ‘tryin’ to’ is lost as he seems to turn away from Hulburd’s camera/microphone.
+3:18 ( 1636.41 / 4:36.41 )
(Foreground: BR SUP Brian Frisby): They’re in the black right now tryin’ to ??
——————————————————————–
+3:17 ( 1636.40 / 4:36.40 )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): (To Brown): So everybody’s out?
+3:18 ( 1636.41 / 4:36.41 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Yea. We’re the last.
+3:22 ( 1636.45 / 4:36.45 )
(Unknown): ( Someone says something here to Brown the he is going to agree with )
+3:23 ( 1636.46 / 4:36.46 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown?): Yup.
+3:25 ( 1636.48 / 4:36.48 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): How long ya been here? Days?
+3:27 ( 1636.50 / 4:36.50 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Nah… we just got here this mornin’
+3:29 ( 1636.52 / 4:36.52 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Holy shit.
+3:30 ( 1636.53 / 4:36.53 )
(Foreground: BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Yeah.
+3:31 ( 1636.54 / 4:36.54 )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): ( Laughs )
——————————————————————–
VIDEO M2U00271 ABRUPTLY CUTS OFF
This is the relevant exchange near the end of M2U00271…
——————————————————————-
+3:16 ( 1636.39 / 4:36.39 )
(Foreground: Jason Clawson?): ( To Frisby): Where’s Jesse? We didn’t seem ’em in the buggies.
+3:18 ( 1636.41 / 4:36.41 )
(Foreground: BR SUP Brian Frisby): They’re in the black right now tryin’ to ??
——————————————————————–
So this is Frisby reporting ( directly to Jason Clawson ) more about ‘Jesse’ and GM than Eric Marsh, per se… but it’s interesting to note that even as Frisby was evacuating out to the Ranch House Restaurant… he was convinced that Granite Mountain was still ‘in the black’..
Frisby really does ‘turn away’ from Hulburd’s microphone right as he is sayng ‘now tryin’ to…’,
and I don’t see any possibility of recovering any more words there in the audio track.
I don’t even have a good guess there about what might have followed “now tryin’ to…’
Do you?
Remember… we are only about 90 seconds away from Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY at this moment in time.
I think it is possible that marsh was asking Frisby back up for a reason. I do not think a case could be made that marsh was calling Frisby up there to tell him GM was committed to the black. It would seem logical that he called him up for planning. Where on the fire had a better view of what was happening? Yes. I think that it makes sense (personally) that marsh was calling Frisby up to look at the place the new dozer line should go. And we hear Frisby state. Eric decided a trail, I went to tie in, and then picked up lookout. That seems to establish a time for when Frisby heard Eric was moving, and it was when he called him up for a face to face meeting.
Reply to calvin post on December 10, 2014 at 4:42 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> I think it is possible that marsh was asking Frisby back up for a reason.
Yes. Actually… that’s a given. There’s no way he would have been asking Frisby to drop what he was doing all the way down there and eat dust and schlep all the way back up to that ridge unless he wanted to SHOW him something ( like an idea or a plan only best viewed from Marsh’s location on the ridge ).
I have also (personally) never thought Frisby would consent to such a ‘trip’ up there unless he had also been given some idea what it was about… or Marsh had already indicated to Frisby something like “I can’t just tell you what I am thinking of doing… you have to come up here so I can SHOW you”.
That ‘reason’ for the face-to-face *might* be one of the REDACTED sections in Frisby’s Unit Log.
I also think that whatever radio frequency this request from Marsh for that second face-to-face took place on… there must have been others who heard it to a greater extent than the current testimony would indicate.
If Frisby really did have Marsh’s intra-net frequency… it’s possible that is where the ‘request’ took place… which means Brendan McDonough probably heard all of this exchange.
>> calvin also wrote…
>>
>> I do not think a case could be made that marsh was calling Frisby
>> up there to tell him GM was committed to the black.
Agree. Not a chance.
It had to be about some kind of ‘last ditch effort’ plan, or something.
Some kind of mano-e-mano “Hotshot to Hotshot” type business.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> It would seem logical that he called him up for planning.
>> Where on the fire had a better view of what was happening?
Agree. Something related to the FIRE and what else they *might* be able to do about it given the new ( fast developing ) situation.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Yes. I think that it makes sense (personally) that marsh was
>> calling Frisby up to look at the place the new dozer line should go.
This is the ‘new’ part of this… and I agree. It’s possible this new ‘dozer push’
was what Eric wanted to talk about… but he never go the chance to be that specific over the radio when requesting the face-to-face… so Frisby never really knew that is what the meeting was going to be about because he never made it up there for that ‘show and tell’.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> And we hear Frisby state. Eric decided a trail, I went to tie in,
>> and then picked up lookout. That seems to establish a
>> time for when Frisby heard Eric was moving, and it was when
>> he called him up for a face to face meeting.
I do see exactly where you are ‘coming from’ now… but I’m still not sure I see the direct line of reasoning that this would prove Marsh was ‘already scouting south’ circa 1530.
Again… what Frisby actually said was…
+0:31
(Brian Frisby): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge…
green… goes around. That lookout was down below. I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… uh… I grabbed him. ( He’s out ).
I think only Frisby himself could say what he was really TRYING to say at that moment. It ended up an ‘incomplete thought’.
He could have been referring to just what Frisby showed him when he was up there at NOON… that they had this ‘escape route’ on that trail that ‘goes around’ if they needed it.
Whoops… typo above. I meant to say…
He (Frisby) could have been referring to just what Marsh showed him when he was up there at NOON… that they had this ‘escape route’ on that trail that ‘goes around’ if they needed it.
What I am seeing is Marsh wanting to talk 1 on 1 with Frizby to determine if they can tie in there respective lines in time to keep the fire in check
which in short order was answered for them with the fire pushing out the GM lookout and looking like a solid wall of flame.
So I think the discussion between Marsh and Frisby was that the line was not going to get tied in and his crew would move GM vehicles with McDonough.
A Fairley simple exchange at that point.
Since BR had an ATV it made it fairly easy to get together and discuss the Fire and their options. They could have got together in 10 minuets or less. That is very fast when you need to discuss you options.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 10, 2014 at 4:17 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> What I am seeing is Marsh wanting to talk 1 on 1 with
>> Frizby to determine if they can tie in there respective
>> lines in time to keep the fire in check
There is evidence to prove that was NOT the case.
Marsh DID want to talk to Frisby… but only AFTER it became clear that they were NOT going to be able to ‘tie in their respective lines’.. Marsh did not request this mysterious second face-to-face until AFTER Jesse Steed announced that GM would need at least another HOUR to finish that original project.
From page 8 of the SAIT Investigation Notes.
SAIT Interview with Frisby, Brown, Fueller, Ball.
At this point.. the NOTES seem to indicate that it is Captain Trueheart Brown speaking since he is talking about what ‘Brian’ ( or just ‘B’ ) was doing. It’s hard to tell any TIMES at all from the SAIT interview notes, but this ‘section’ is appearing in roughly the 1530 timeframe…
——————————————————–
Brian tries to contact GM several times, GM direct 3 or 4x Brian passed on to Jesse there plan of Gm securing there piece to the 2 track. Jesse says we have about another hr before we are tied into the 2 track. Eric copy’s and says yes that’s a good plan, head back up here let’s do a face-to-face. B says ok.
———————————————————
So according to this ‘sequence’ in the notes… Brian Frisby called out to Jesse Steed himself about the possibility of GM securing what they had been doing up there down to the two-track… and Jesse Steed came right back and said they would need at least another HOUR before that could be accomplished. That means the work wasn’t going to be finished before the fire reached the two-track itself.
It is only AFTER this exchange that Eric Marsh THEN requested the face-to-face with Frisby.
So it would appear ( according to these SAIT notes ) that Marsh only wanted to talk face-to-face with Frisby AFTER it became obvious that the two groups were NOT going to have enough time to tie what Granite Mountain had been doing all day into the actual bulldozed main ‘two-track’.
I think that also means that whatever Marsh felt was so important for Frisby to come all the way out to the ridge to ‘talk about and/or look at’ was some kind of ALTERNATE plan. Something OTHER than just finishing that project of tying GM’s anchor point work down into the bulldozed two-track at some point near the old-grader location.
Then there is this from page 4 of the (redacted) Blue Ridge Unit Logs… This is definitely from BR Captain Brown’s Unit Log…
—————————————————
(XXXXX) speaks with (XXXX) and it is decided that (XXXXX) is going to tie in with (XXXX) in “the saddle” and he drives off.
—————————————————
Since this is from Captain Brown’s Unit Log and it comes at the same moment ( circa 1530 ) when Eric Marsh requested that second face-to-face meeting with Frisby… I think it’s safe to say that the UNREDACTED parts of this statement would look like this…
—————————————————
(Brian) speaks with (Eric) and it is decided that (Brian) is going to tie in with (Eric) in “the saddle” and he (Brian) drives off (in the UTV).
—————————————————
Despite what is mentioned in the SAIT notes for this ‘circa 1530’ timeframe Captain Brown’s Unit Log covering that same timeframe mentions NOTHING about the conversation with Steed where he said they were going to need another HOUR to tie into the two-track.
So… is there anything in BR SUP Brian Frisby’s log about this?
Turns out… there is… and it DOES pretty much match what the SAIT Investigation notes say… and in the same timeframe and ‘sequence of evernts’.
Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby’s (redacted) Unit Log was released in a separate document from the other BR Unit Logs.
That second document was named BlueRidgeIHC-2.pdf.
Brian Frisby’s Unit Log remained ‘handwritten’ and was REDACTED in that original form in the BlueRidgeIHC-2.pdf document.
On page 3 ( of 6 pages ) from Brian Frisby’s Unit Log…
Notice in this first paragraph that US Forestry tried to HIDE
the name of who Frisby was calling with a REDACTION,
but then just left Frisby’s note about it being DIVA unredacted.
That was probably a screw-up on the part of whoever was
redacting this Unit Log.
————————————————————
15:30 – (XXXX) had four of our guys bring our truck around and the rest geared up and headed to the doze line preping towards Shrine. I tryed to call (XXXX) a few times on tack 1 (DIVA) without any luck so I call (XXXXX) (XXXXXXXX) and was able to talk to (XXXXX). I told him that we were going to start prepping the dozer line to be able to burn if our hand was forced we would at least be able to protect some of the structures.
He agreed that our time was best spent down towards the structures and that it was slow going and they would probably be another hour before they tied into the two track to the north
(XXXXX) called me right after that to let me know he had copied direct and agreed with the plan.
He also said he would like to meet up when I get a chance.
I told him I would head his way with the ranger.
(XXXXX) grabbed his gear to go and look at a rocky area to see if we could hang up fire if we had to burn.
I headed up toward Granite Mountain.
—————————————————————
Since this pretty much matches what the SAIT interview
notes say… this one is pretty easy to ‘unredact’.
The ‘unredacted’ version most proably would look like this…
—————————————————————
15:30 – (Trew Brown) had four of our guys bring our truck around and the rest geared up and headed to the dozer line preping towards Shrine. I tryed to call (Eric Marsh) a few times on tack 1 (DIVA) without any luck so I call (Jesse Steed) (with Granite Mountain) and was able to talk to (Jesse). I told him that we were going to start prepping the dozer line to be able to burn if our hand was forced we would at least be able to protect some of the structures.
He (Jesse) agreed that our time was best spent down towards the structures and that it was slow going and they would probably be another hour before they tied into the two track to the north.
(Eric Marsh) called me right after that to let me know he had copied direct and agreed with the plan.
He (Eric Marsh) also said he would like to meet up when I get a chance.
I told him I would head his way with the ranger.
(Trew Brown) grabbed his gear to go and look at a rocky area to see if we could hang up fire if we had to burn.
I headed up toward Granite Mountain.
—————————————————————
So both the SAIT notes from THEIR ‘interview’ with Blue Ridge and BR SUP Brian Frisby’s own Unit Log are pretty much in agreement about the following…
1) Circa 1530… Jesse Steed said that he and Granite Mountain would need at least another HOUR to finish what they were doing and tie into the main two-track.
2) Only AFTER Eric Marsh says he ‘overheard’ that report does he ask Brian Frisby to come up for that second ‘face-to-face’. But ( according to Frisby ) Marsh didn’t even seem to be in any kind of hurry for that to happen. He just said “when you get a chance” to Frisby.
3) Brown gets out of the Ranger at the west end of the Cutover Trail where he and Frisby were when this radio como took place with Steed and Marsh. Brown starts walking EAST on the Cutover Trail and Frisby takes off in the UTV Ranger out towards Marsh.
He (Frisby) would never get there.
This is when he comes across Brendan at the old-grader, abandons the face-to-face, and evacs Brendan back east.
So by the time Eric requested that second face-to-face with Frisby he ( Eric ) ALREADY knew at least the following TWO things…
1) Blue Ridge was NOT doing any ‘prep’ work on that main two-track that headed out west towards Eric’s position and was now going to be ‘prepping’ that other ‘new’ dozer push from the Sesame area over to the Shrine Youth Camp.
2) His own GM resource was NOT going to finish the original plan of tieing into the main two-track down near the old-grader for another HOUR or so. That was an HOUR they didn’t have.
So whatever PLAN Marsh now wanted to discuss with Frisby ‘face to-face’ would appear to have been some kind of BACKUP plan since it was now obvious they didn’t have TIME to finish the original plan.
I think that IS what we are back to discussing at this point.
What might that OTHER PLAN have been that Marsh seemed to need Frisby up there on the ridge to either SEE or TALK about?
As simple as I Fire Fighter Can Say it——
Your objective is to have a good tied in line what did Frizby and Marsh need to do to accomplish that.
Then boom the Fire hits the Trigger for the Lookout and Boom the Trucks are in danger……….Boom all the line building and plan to tie in and burn out is gone.
So what they needed to discuss as the main 2 supervisors was what it would take to finish the assignment. After the fire made its move it was to late to finish the day shift assignment.
and all there line had been compromised.
So I say simply they had no other plan to move and build line they were just completely in the wrong place to accomplish that. GM should have moved up the mountain in the black and
hunkered as every one thought they were doing.
It was already to late to get to Glen Isla and put in any line. Again I look at the Pictures taken at the rest area be for GM moved, there was no way and no time to get to Glen Isla from the Rest area the fire was going to beat them there.
I still do not see any other plan that was not already compromised by the time BR was moving GM vehicles.
It could have well been under consideration but was never really Formulated They ask ball to scout the possibility that meant they would not move on the plan until they had conformation it could be done.
They would not have moved anyone until they had some conformation. We know what Ball said and that was it.
The only statements we have from marsh and Steed .
Were moving to our predetermined SZ.
Nothing about reengaging.
nothing about moving to build line north of Glen Isla.
Nothing about tying in with a Dozer.
That’s my take I guess I need more convincing. What I have Seen and what I have read and heard dose not take me in the new plan direction. So I am looking for more to convince me.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 10, 2014 at 9:57 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Your objective is to have a good tied in line.
Exactly. At 1530 Frisby tried to raise Marsh a few times on the radio to find out if they DID have ‘good tied in line yet’ up there. He couldn’t get Marsh. So Frisby calls Steed directly. Steed says “Nope… Sorry… No tied in line yet. We need at least another HOUR”.
So Frisby tells Steed they won’t be working on that main ‘two-track’ dozer line at all anymore… and they are shifting their attention to the ‘Cutover Trail’ to at least try and protect some structures.
Steed AGREES that is what Frisby should be doing.
Marsh overhears ALL of this exchange between Frisby and Steed and he chimes in with his consent to ‘that new plan’.
So now… at this moment… Marsh already knows that ‘day project’ isn’t going to come together and YES… Frisby might as well be focusing on that ‘Cutover Trail’ instead to at least have a chance to save some structures.
Only THEN does Marsh ask Frisby to ‘come up’ and discuss some OTHER plan.
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> what did Frizby and Marsh need to do to
>> accomplish that.
That answer became clear in the radio conversation.
There was NOTHING they were going to be able to do.
Steed needed another HOUR ( which Marsh and Frisby both knew they didn’t have ) and Frisby was now off on this OTHER last-minute project Cordes gave him to improve that dozer push on the Cutover Trail instead of the main two-track.
Steed ‘acknowledged’ this ‘new plan’. So did Marsh.
Remember that long discussion we had about WHEN was the actual ‘tools up’ moment for GM?
I believe this was it.
And only THEN did Marsh still seem to want a ‘face-to-face’ with Frisby.
In a way… that request for that face-to-face at that point just doesn’t make any sense at all based on the evidence we DO have.
>> Bob Powers also wrote.
>>
>> Then boom the Fire hits the Trigger for
>> the Lookout and Boom the Trucks are in
>> danger……….Boom all the line building
>> and plan to tie in and burn out is gone.
Here is where we are differing in perspective, I think.
Your BOOM is the moment Frisby is already heading up to see Marsh and he comes across Brendan. You are assuming that the ‘tools up’ moment for GM on that original ‘day project’ hadn’t happened yet.
I think there’s a good chance the BOOM moment came BEFORE that… and this is what the documentation seems to suggest. The BOOM moment ( tools UP for GM ) was when Steed said he needed an hour to finish ‘tieing in’ on that day project and both Marsh and Frisby KNEW they didn’t have an HOUR.
So ‘BOOM MOMENT’ equals “TOOLS UP” on day project.
The only question is… WHEN did that moment really happen. That’s what we are trying to nail down.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So what they needed to discuss as the main 2
>> supervisors was what it would take to finish the
>> assignment.
That ALREADY happened.
Frisby tried to call Marsh to ‘discuss what it would take to finish the assignment’. He couldn’t get him. So he called his next best bet ( Jesse Steed ) and asked him the same ‘IHC Supervisor to (acting) IHC Supervisor’ question…
IHC SUP Frisby: “Jesse… what’s it gonna take to finish the assignment?”
IHC SUP Steed: “I need at least another hour to finish tying in”.
BOOM. Not enough time. Not gonna happen.
End of assignment.
Steed tells Frisby he might as well forget that original assignment and go ahead with the ‘new plan’ to just focus on the Cutover Trail like Cordes told him to.
Marsh HEARD this entire conversation. He AGREED to
the ‘new plan’ for Frisby to forget about that ‘day assignment’ and just focus on the Cutover Trail.
So what else was there to talk about with regards to the ‘day assignment’. The BOOM moment just happened.
It simply wasn’t going to come together and everyone was already acknowledging that to each other over the radio.
Only THEN does Marsh ask for this next mysterious ‘face-to-face with Frisby… but not even in any kind of ‘quick’ timeframe. Marsh just said “When you get a chance”.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> After the fire made its move it was too
>> late to finish the day shift assignment.
It was already ‘too late’ when Steed told Frisby he needed at least another HOUR. No chance. Everyone knew there was no way they had THAT much time…
not at 1530. The ‘day shift assignment’ was BLOWN even before Frisby was asked by Marsh to travel up there.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So I say simply they had no other plan
>> to move and build line they were just
>> completely in the wrong place to
>> accomplish that. GM should have moved
>> up the mountain in the black
They actually DID. That is exactly what MacKenzie’s 1550 photos show. It was TOOLS UP for the men that were down the slope and we see them ‘moving up the mountain into the black’ where the others were… then we see them ALL just doing ‘smoke ’em if ya got ’em’ and resting and taking photos. They were DONE ( as far as they knew ) and they WERE already ‘up the mountain’ and ‘in the black’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It was already to late to get to Glen Isla and put in
>> any line.
The ‘put in any line’ part is what we are now wondering here… but there is no question that SOMEONE ( Marsh? ) certainly thought they had ‘plenty of time’ to get to Glen Ilah ( for whatever reason ).
Gary Cordes himself has also testified he thought they had ‘plenty of time to get there’ even following the ‘TOOLS UP’ moment.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Again I look at the Pictures taken at the rest
>> area before GM moved, there was no way
>> and no time to get to Glen Isla from the
>> Rest area the fire was going to beat
>> them there.
I wish you ( or anyone with the sense God gave a Goose ) had been there to TELL them that.
I truly do.
They (obviously) thought otherwise.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I still do not see any other plan that was
>> not already compromised by the time
>> BR was moving GM vehicles.
>> It could have well been under consideration
>> but was never really Formulated They ask
>> Ball to scout the possibility that meant they
>> would not move on the plan until they had
>> conformation it could be done.
>>
>> They would not have moved anyone until
>> they had some conformation.
Mr. Powers… you always speak ‘to the point’ and in a frame of reference of how things OUGHT to be… and you KNOW all of us here appreciate that…
…but I wish I could share your confidence that everything that was going down that day was ‘by the book’ and according to the ‘way things ought to be’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> We know what Ball said and that was it.
>>
>> The only statements we have from Marsh
>> and Steed…
>>
>> Were moving to our predetermined SZ.
>> Nothing about reengaging.
>> Nothing about moving to build line north of Glen Isla.
>> Nothing about tying in with a Dozer.
You missed one.
Eric Marsh at 1637.
“That’s it. That’s where WE want the retardant”.
I know we have our doubts about that statement itself and whether Burfiend could have been really sure it actually came from Eric Marsh ( and not just someone commenting on the 1633 SEAT drop )…
…but humor me for a moment.
What if Marsh really did say that… at 1637?
What would that retardant drop have been FOR other than to probably support a dozer line that Marsh might have thought was supposed to being actively ‘pushed’ there near Glen Ilah?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> That’s my take I guess I need more convincing.
>> What I have Seen and what I have read and
>> heard dose not take me in the new plan direction.
>> So I am looking for more to convince me.
Fair enough.
Personally.. I AGREE with you… but I still think this whole possibility of another ‘plan’ being in place which *may* have contributed to their decision to move is worth this ‘revisit’ of the evidence.
It’s might be a ‘rabbit hole’… but there really might be a fuzzy creature lurking at the bottom of it.
For Now lets not say things were by the Book as They were not that simple.
I am saying years of experience doing fire suppression yields some basic thinking. Some basic things that happen with out the book. Like scout a plan before you implement it. Have a plan before you move resources. Make an attempt to tie in your line to the next division. Don’t let the fire dictate you plan.
Hail Mary’s do not work as last minute plans.
I think many of the crews on the fire were already discouraged with the leadership including GM.
The only real goal we can say right or wrong was their very distinct move to their predetermined SZ
We also know they moved without a safety plan.
one thought they move towards a location that would allow them to be picked up buy their busses, and off the mountain where they would be stranded for some time. At this point many factors interred their thinking process or lack there of (Human Factors) that over looked the bad things that were happening. Still my take.
I think the bottom line at this point is…
We continue to accumulate DIRECT evidence that SPGS1 Gary Cordes WAS at least trying to put a plan into motion ‘down there’ to do an emergency dozer-push to the ‘southwest’ and out there near the bottom of the Sesame area and on over ( as far as possible ) to the rock outcrops of the Boulder Springs Ranch itself.
There is INDIRECT evidence that DIVSA Eric Marsh became AWARE of this plan… even though it was in its initial stages. Whatever TAC channel Cordes used to instruct HEQB Cory Ball to begin the ‘scouting’ for that operation would have been a channel that DIVSA Eric Marsh could hear as well.
We have no DIRECT evidence that ties this ‘plan’ to Granite Mountain’s mysterious move out of the black
The closest we get is…
1555 – GM is ‘idle’ in rest spot taking pictures
1600 – Cordes tells HEQB Cory Ball to start scouting a ‘dozer line’ that would try to connect up with the Boulder Springs Ranch in a last-ditch effort to keep fire out of Glen Ilah.
1604 – GM has suddenly ‘gaggled up’ and is headed for the Boulder Springs Ranch.
1627 – Someone is asking Eric Marsh where Granite Mountain is and WHY it is taking them so long to get to where someone expected them to be already.
1635 – Gary Cordes absolutely KNEW that Granite Mountain was either supposed to already be at the Boulder Springs Ranch or was just about to arrive there… and he tells Tyson Esquibel to send an engine to the BSR and to make sure they (all) ‘get out safely’.
What we do NOT have is any testimony or other evidence that ties all this together into it being a REASON why Granite Mountain left the safe black ( suddenly ) and was headed for the Boulder Springs Ranch.
One more piece of evidence from somewhere… and all this just might make sense.
It certainly makes sense to not move any resources during the evaluation of a plan’s ability to be implemented.
It would also be within reason (and I’m NOT dismissing here, the 10 & 18 and LCES issues we have discussed over and over), to pre-position a resource that has lost all usefulness at it current location, to a (SAFE) place (in a SAFE manner) where they could re-engage easily and effectively, should the plan under consideration be implemented.
Exactly. I guess that’s all I ( me, personally ) have been trying to establish in the exchange above.
The simple possibility that there could have been AWARENESS on the part of DIVS Eric Marsh of this ‘proposed’ PLAN that *might* be coming together down there involving a dozer push to protect Glen Ilah.
If there WAS awareness on DIVSA’s part that Cordes had started to put the plan into motion down there ( scouting had started, dozer was in place ready to start upon command, etc. )… and DIVSA thought they *might* be needed to help improve that dozer line down there ( if it came together )…
…then give how FAR AWAY they were even while this ‘plan’ was just forming… it would have been ( in Marsh’s mind ) stupid to wait for some radio como about ‘the dozer line is ready now… you can come down’.
No. There would have been OVERLAP in both the timing and the thinking.
This is all IAOI ( If And Only If ) DIVSA Marsh became aware of this ‘plan’ that Cordes had and that he had already told HEQB Cory Ball to begin to implement.
If Marsh really thought that ‘plan’ was even GOING to ‘come together’ down there… he would have been thnking “time is a wastin'” and wold have been urging Steed to start moving right away… so they would already BE in a position to help once there really was a dozer line happening down there.
I think this is one of those points we will have to agree to disagree until there is further evidence
to make this clearer. I can not make the final step and that’s where I am for now.
The other problem is pushing Dozer line across State , Private and BLM land also takes approval and cooperation. Believe it or not EPA, Antiquities Act and permission to cross private property require approval. BLM and Private would have a say in what cat lines were put in just hoops to jump thru.
The Antiquities act has stopped a lot of Dozer line in recent years. Archeologists now make decisions on where and if Dozer lines are put in. You just don’t start putting Dozer line any place you want with out clearance and especially on private land.
Archeologists are on all FS and BLM fires now
If you were unaware of that. I think the State is under the same requirements.
General note: See posts above and see Arizona LAW about what AZ Forestry can/cannot do…
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/37/00623.htm&Title=37&DocType=ARS
Basically… Arizona Forestry does NOT have to ask anyone for any permission to do just about anything they want in the exercise of their ‘authority’ and ‘responsibility’ to suppress wildfire in Arizona.
Anyone who wanted to push dozer line somewhere can just point at the ground and tell the dozer to GO.
Wtk. At what point do you think Frisby heard marsh reference taking the trail, along the ridge, through the green. As he states in the m2u00271 video. Before heading up to have the face to face with marsh? During his trip, before picking up McDonough, or after picking up McDonough?
Reply to calvin post on December 11, 2014 at 4:48 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> At what point do you think Frisby heard marsh reference
>> taking the trail, along the ridge, through the green. As he
>> states in the m2u00271 video.
Well… first off… I think you have to take Frisby’s statement in context.
He was explaining what he knew to Hulburd, Yowell and Clawson… and that one statement was a ‘continuation’ of his explanation that he started with “They were in the black…”
But then Frisby’s ‘thought’ got ‘interrupted’ by both Hulburd and Yowell.
Yowell thought he meant ‘the lookout’ was the one in the black, and Frisby specifically corrects him. THEN he makes that statement about Eric ‘deciding’ that the trail ‘goes around’.
For the sake of completeness… here is that FULL exchange from M2U00271…
—————————————————–
+0:21
(Brian Frisby): They were sittin’ in cold black.
+0:23
(Trueheart Brown): They were in black.
+0:25
(Uknown – Aaron Hulburd?): (So) THAT’S what they were talking about? (The) Lookout?
+0:28
(Brian Frisby): No. No. (He’s) in black…
+0:30
(Unknown – KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): ( Overlapping with Frisby ) I heard that (one).
+0:31
(Brian Frisby): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge..green… goes around. That lookout was down below. I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… uh… I grabbed him. ( He’s out ).
——————————————————-
So if you actually take out the ‘interruptions’ from Hulburd and Yowell and the moment where Frisby has to stop and correct Yowell… and you also take out that ‘green’ reference… I believe this is closer to the ‘complete thought’ that Frisby was trying to express at that moment…
(Brian Frisby): They were sittin’ in cold black.and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge goes around.
Okay… all that being said… I still think it’s very hard to say what TIMEFRAME Frisby is referring to here about WHEN Eric Marsh ‘decided’ that the trail ‘follows that ridge around’.
I still think Frisby could have been just referencing something Marsh pointed out during their face-to-face back around NOON.
They were standing up there for a full 30 minutes.
At some point Frisby himself could have noticed that two-track heading south and even just pointed at it and asked Marsh… “Where does THAT go?” Marsh had seen that trail on the iPad that morning as Cordes was showing him where the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ was. Marsh could have just replied to Frisby… “Oh… that trail… it just sorta goes around down there back towards town” or something like that.
This statement from Frisby, at the time he made it, really is kind of curious. It would SEEM to indicate that Frisby KNEW Marsh had headed ‘south’ on that trail… but that doesn’t match anything Frisby said in his SAIT interview notes… nor does it match what they were just about to DO and WHERE they were about to go look for them ( back up at the anchor point ).
SIDENOTE: A redacted copy of Frisby’s own Unit Log notes WAS released along with the other redacted BR Unit Logs… but the pages from Frisby’s log that cover the deployment timeframe and everything he did ( or thought ) after that have always been MISSING. Those pages were NOT ( and still have NOT been ) released. Frisby’s Unit Log ends with him just describing how he was pushing everyone out of the Shrine area circa 4:30 PM.
However…
There IS the following from BR Captain Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log.
He actually describes pretty specifically where ‘they’ ( he and Frisby ) actually thought the ‘deployment site’ as they broke through in the Shrine area and were rushing ‘out there’.
SIDENOTE: I think you were wondering down below about Oxygen bottles. Here is where Trew Brown says that had a ‘few’ of them with them… and not just ONE.
———————————————–
1725 – We then try to access again via shrine and tie in with ( Redacted, but has to be Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell ) and they have a Polaris razor and a ATV. We only have a few bottle O2, one med bag and a backboard. We tell them about access and where we think the site may be. We drive up as far as we can on shrine and then sit there for a few minutes contemplating the situation. We all know that it is cold black beyond the first wall of heat and the propane tanks that are venting. I remember saying “Fuck it. Let’s go for it” and then we all just go for it. There are multiple trees across the road and power lines are hanging very low too. We punch it and make it through. We head up the Dozer line and the tie into the 2 track and take that until we make the left hand turn up the 2 track to where we think they might be.
———————————————–
So Trew Brown mentions TWICE in this one paragraph ( that actually covers the M2U00271 video timeframe itself ) that he and Frisby had a good idea where the ‘deployment site’ might be….
1) We tell them about access and where we think the site may be.
2) We head up the Dozer line and the tie into the 2 track and take that until we make the left hand turn up the 2 track to where we think they might be.
The ‘left hand turn’ Brown is referring to would be that point at the old-grader where ( when heading west ) you can either take a RIGHT and head up that ‘dead-end’ two-track to the NORTH… or you can take a LEFT and head up that other two-track that now heads southwest but does take you up to the ‘anchor point’.
This is the ‘left-turn’ and the ‘two-track’ that both Frisby and Brown took for the NOON face-to-face and it is the same two-track they both thought GM was ‘coming down’. later that day… and it is NOW the place where they think they got ‘caught’ and where the deployment site might be.
So I’m not even seeing a match there between what Frisby is SAYING to Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell in the M2U00271 video and then what Brown says later in his Unit Log about where they thought the deployment site might be as they were breaking through.
We still do NOT have Frisby’s Unit Log notes that cover this ‘ground mission’ ( and M2U00271 ) timeframe. Those ‘pages’ from Frisby’s Unit Log have NEVER been released by US Forestry… even in a ‘redacted’ form.
Just one more thing ( out of who knows HOW much ) that we KNOW the US Forestry Service still HAS but refuses to release even in response to valid FOIA requests.
So.
After sitting here, reading what I’ve missed, re-reading what I haven’t missed, re-reading what I’ve written. I have another one of my “in reality” questions.
Being an arm-chair quarterback and all.
The discussion about whether “The Cordes Plan” was actually a Plan or a kinda sorta plan or more of just a pipe-dream. In the context of whether the entire day even had a Plan or a kinda sorta plan or more of just a pipe-dream, itself.
I still have “Slow Down, Skippy!!” echoing through my mind. (I think this fire ought to be re-named the “Slow Down, Skippy!” Fire”).
I find it echoing in some of my own “in real life’ situations. It happens when I’m “racing” to get something done, and I’m on some kind of edge, and my mind now, thanks to one of the Three Prescotteers, says “Slow Down, Skippy!!”
And then I realize I need to slow down or I’m possibly going to do something that may cost me more time/grief/money/whatever in the long run than if I slow down and really think about what’s happening.
Seems to me there’s kind of a paradox here. Especially as it relates to this fire. Especially after the fire escaped Initial Attack, but maybe even before that.
Including how they had a PAID-FOR helitack chopper and its PAID-FOR crew mostly sitting there all day Saturday and Sunday, but were TOO BUSY to stop and think about out how to really use it. Especially given that. on Saturday, that helicopter could have been WAY more helpful with that Initial Attack than the SEATs and Tankers they seem to have been agonizing about not being able to hold onto.
Even after the fire escaped, they didn’t bother to use it. There was plenty of light to do it, there were available dipsites, but, seemingly, nobody ever STOPPED to think about how to use it. They were SO BUSY they just let the fire go. And I’m not convinced it wasn’t possible for them to have corralled that fire after it escaped by just getting that helicopter engaged.
And the ordering of the Type 2 Short Crew. They were TOO BUSY “doing stuff” to STOP and actually analyze/document what the fire was doing, what it might do. what might really be needed (given the fuel loads, the communities at risk, what the fire was actually doing, what the weather could do, etc..) And so Phoenix (who wasn’t even there) decided to order a Short Team, and Musser etc (there was a BLM Type 3 Incident Commander right by his SIDE as this was happening) apparently was TOO BUSY doing “other stuff” to STOP and think about whether that team would be adequate because they hadn’t bothered to STOP and do the Required Standard Operating Procedure of filling out an Escaped Fire Report.
And then the dumping of retardant on Granite Mountain’s test fire. WTF??? Because Rory Collins was, seemingly, TOO BUSY doing whatever he thought he was doing to STOP and have a conversation with Eric/Granite Mountain about what Strategy/Tactics they were using and WHY (since it was, apparently, “different” from how they fight fires in the Northwest–a totally different ecosystem/fire system than the one he was actually flying over as Air Attack).
Personally, I could go ON AND ON about this stuff.
And so now we have this Plan/kinda-sorta-plan/possible pipe-dream. Which may (or may not) have been, relatively speaking, scratched out on a napkin between Gary Cordes and Paul Musser (I’ve done that sort of planning in my life–but with WAY fewer lives at risk).
So Gary Cordes started “throwing resources” into his “Plan.” Including, at least, a dozer, a dozer operator, a Blue Ridge IHC HEQB, and, “hopefully,” an engine or two. And, maybe even Granite Mountain IHC.
Because OMG the fire is heading towards Yarnell/Glen Ilah, and jumping “trigger points” and “outperforming our expectations”!!!
That’s where the paradox comes in.
I’m really curious. Several of you, my compadres around this fire circle, have conversed about how things are “supposed” to be done. What’s “supposed” to be done comes across to me as being deliberate, relatively analytical, looking realistically into the future (including possible worst case scenarios), communicative, and concerned, above all, about fire-fighter and civilian SAFETY (at least in theory).
That stuff takes TIME. It seems to me it takes STOPPING being TOO BUSY (at least it does FOR ME).
On real fires, does this actually happen?
Do over-stressed decision-makers (when things are speeding up and “outperforming expectations”) actually consciously realize/decide to STOP BEING TOO BUSY, while things are racing all around them, for AS LONG AS IT TAKES (in spite of the time-pressure) to really consider all this stuff that is happening around them, all the people who are involved, the MOST LIKELY things that COULD happen, the worst possible scenarios, the various resources they have “in their various pockets,” and THUS, what they need to decide they need to do?
Does training for these kinds of positions include how to do that? Does it include how to recognize when it’s time to “Slow Down, Skippy!!!”???
Thanks, to all my compadres around this fire circle, in advance.
Yes that does happen. I have been on numerous expanding incidents that teams have arrived on and won’t take the incident until they have full awareness of the situation, resources on scene, potential, the priorities of the host agency, cost estimate( amount the host would like to keep it under). This is all discussed and accepted during a transition and “delagation of authority” meeting.
Extremely difficult to do during a rapidly expanding event, but for obvious reasons, organization, safety, command and control, a step that is extremely important.
As Retired 38— says correct and I have seen portions of Fires or the whole Fire be pulled back from all work to safe areas until an evaluation of a new plan can be formulated. When the fire is kicking your butt as Marti says the Command people
need to say who slow down Skippy lets not put people in danger until we have a plan in place Command type teams are thought that in training for Type 2 and 1 teams.
When you start developing a plan you don’t start moving resources until all of the plan has been put together and acceptable to The IC.
For example Ball went to scout the idea of a Dozer line He did not take the Dozer with him. It was a Idea not a plan or a directed start building line.
Moving an entire Hand crew off a Division with out a Plan in place or where to start
Just dose not happen. And we have no talk of such a plan. So maybe an Idea that was being discussed until OPS found out the Fire was out running his possible plan
You are making a huge jump from a Tractor Boss Scouting a possible New Line to it being a feasible Plan. Again to those of you who have never Fought Fire.
You just do not make Frontal attacks on fires With those burning conditions and Wind. It is to late to Fire out Roads do to erratic Winds or Dozer lines the only choices you have are pulling back and protecting structures where you can with out putting you Fire Fighters at risk. Starting new line to flank the Fire.
I do not believe a plan was ever really initiated but only discussed.
All good questions ( as usual ) Marti.
The academic side of me just wants to post that link that RTS found again to those great documents about ‘Decision Making’… but then I say ‘Slow Down Skippy’ and realize those documents ( while perfectly relevant ) do NOT answer the REAL questions you are asking.
You are not asking… how is it SUPPOSED to be.
You are asking people with current/past WFF experience to say whether the ‘chaos’, the disorganization, the myopia, the poor decision making and the general “who is really running this thing?” feeling at the Yarnell Hill fire was NORMAL… or not… and whether this kind of rolling fuster clucking is REALLY just kinda ‘the way it is’ during a transition from an IA to an up-level incident ( even if the up-level people arriving turn right around and just treat it as still an IA situation ).
Something tells me the HONEST answers would be “more often than you would think”.
In all truth… regardless of whether some of the ‘ultimate’ answers are ever found as to why 19 people who were supposed to be highly trained ‘fire experts’ and the ‘best of the best’ ended up burned to death in a box canyon… this Yarnell Hill Fire has to now be one of the best photo/video + testimony + Unit Logs documented fires EVER.
Speaking of ‘Slow Down Skippy’… have you had moments where I have had while sifting through ALL of this material and the massive amounts of photos and videos where you go… “Wow… I can’t believe how MUCH there really is here?”
It’s really quite amazing how MANY photos and videos there are of this damn fire.
I think that is a GOOD thing.
The Yarnell Hill Fire really does ‘belong to the ages’ now already… and I hate to inform everyone who wants it to just ‘go away’ but I have a ‘news flash’ for them. It is NEVER going to ‘go away’. Not only is it officially the ‘greatest blunder in the history of Wildland Firefighting’… it is also the FIRST major WFF disaster of the FULL-RPM Internet/Social Media age. Not only WILL it be ‘studied’ for years to come… it will also now be EASY to do so.
And I can also assure you…As much ‘evidence’ as there is right now… there is no doubt MORE to come. Whatever is NOT known now… WILL (eventually) be known. It is as inevitable as it can be. History doesn’t like these kinds of ‘mysteries’ and they get SOLVED, sooner or later.
I agree with you that KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s admonishment to that Peeples Valley Water Tender driver to ‘Slow down Skippy’ could easily be one of the most important “Lessons Learned” itself for this tragedy…
…but for the time being… and as we continue to look at this thing… my ACTUAL favorite ‘radio quote’ so far ALSO comes from Mr. KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
It’s from that moment when he and Hulburd are standing there looking down the Shrine Road and Yowell is actually convinced that Granite Mountain has deployed somewhere right there beyond the end of Shrine Road.
Yowell says “They’re RIGHT BACK THERE somewhere”.
Hulburd says… “But they moved OUT of the BLACK’.
( Here comes MY favorite quote ).
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell turns to Hulburd and says ( with unbelief in his voice )…
“Yea… I know. WHY?”
Yes the chaos is there, and yes it is normally a “fluster cluck”. But, with quality information on the situation provided by the host agency it gives the incoming team something to work with. We have often transitioned on the run and have at a minimum come up with maps, tactics and strategy-at time the “plan for that first operational period was handwritten, but it was a plan that was distributed to all resources.
Thank you. However… have you ever seen ( or heard of ) a situation quite like Yarnell where even a lot of the members of the SHORT team that was supposed to ‘pick it up’ in the morning didn’t even show up?
Bad enough it was a ‘SHORT team’ decision the night before… MANY of the people ordered up the night before never even showed up in the morning.
So it was actually a SHORT-SHORT team on Sunday morning trying to take over that fire.
Thanks for asking this.
And that is when the Team needs to step back scout the Fire and determine the best attack with there resources.
This partial team seemed to have a shot gun approach with out any Idea what they could accomplish.
But they did establish a chain of Command with what they had.
IC,OPS LINE, OPS PLANNING, DIVISONS and STRICK TEAMS..
So we need to first determine was there a complete brake down in Command. Were People doing there own thing and there was no Control central making decisions?
If this is what was happening which seems to be the case.
Then GM and others were making there own plans and who knows what they were or if there were any at 1600 on.
On occasion we have. Had team members arrive late and you make due without . In my opinion this organizational failure was not due to lack of overhead-it was due to not gathering enough intel on the situation, transitioning “on the fly”(if there even was a formal transition) and not recognizing the potential for the fire to run to structures early enough to take aggressive action on a indirect ( not frontal if done early enough ) attack. Aircraft predicted the fire front moving into structures early that day, did Ops not get that message?
Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) arrived over the fire about NOON to replace Rory Collins who had already left the area to refuel.
Bravo 3 first interacted with Darrell Willis and did some VLAT drops for him around the Double Bar A Ranch.
By 12:30 PM, Warbis and Lenmark had taken a full turn around the fire and it was already perfectly obvious to THEM ( as early as 12:30 PM ) that the fire was GOING to be going into Yarnell itself THAT day… during THAT burn cycle.
That’s when they decided ( apparently all on their own ) to start laying that desperate west-to-east retardant line out in the middle bowl. They said it was obvious GM Hotshots were already ‘out of the game’ and the other BR Hotshot crew was just hanging around their buggies doing nothing at all.
Problem is that ( also apparently ) all this critical Intel from Bravo 3time was only being shared with DIVSZ Dance Marquez. He would then basically disappear even from that critical southeast area of the fire that he was supposed to be DIVS of… and many others would then testify they had no idea where he was pretty much the rest of the day.
I think Warbis and Lenmark believed that the Intel they shared with this DIVZ would automatically get ‘shared up’ to the OPS / IC level, or something.
It never happened.
That information from Bravo 3 is a problem. An event with that significance needs to be communicated to Ops and the IC so they can adjust according. Surprising to me that Bravo 3 would not recognize the need to communicate this event to more than just the Division.
Question for you WTKTT, I believe that Structure group 1 & 2 arrived on Saturday night, did they order/request resources for the operational period on Sunday? Sorry I am solely on my phone so I can’t get to other info.
Yes. I’m also on a smartphone at the moment and away from docs but there really is no doubt that the from-site resource ordering Saturday night and early AM Sunday was coming completely from just 3 people. ICT4 Russ Shumate, SPGS1 Gary Forces and SPGS2 Darrell Willis. Willis was the primary and the one making MOST of the recommendations to Shumate about what to order. These 3 men all say in their logs they got together at both 1:30 AM and then again at 3:30 AM to have these ‘resource ordering’ sessions.
Darn smartphone spell checker/transformer struck again. It continually wants to change ‘Cordes’ into the word ‘Forces’ as it did again on last post.
It’s ‘Gary Cordes’… not ‘Gary Forces’.
Reply to ‘Retired with 38’ post on
December 10, 2014 at 11:56 am
>> Retired with 38 said…
>>
>> That information from Bravo 3 is a problem.
>> An event with that significance needs to
>> be communicated to Ops and the IC so
>> they can adjust according. Surprising to
>> me that Bravo 3 would not recognize the
>> need to communicate this event to more
>> than just the Division.
Well… as unbelievable as some say it to be… not only did Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ (apparently) not feel the need to communicate their full ‘evaluation of expected fire behavior’ directly to any OPS or the IC ( and left the information with DIVSZ for him to do whatever )…
…they also (apparently) did NOT feel the need to consult with ANYONE on the ground about the massive retardant line project they were now going to embark on across that entire ‘middle bowl’ from the western ridge all the way across to the north end of Harper Canyon.
They just went ahead and started using the DC10 VLAT that was ‘on scene’ to do that.
There was a point where I, myself, was trying to make an argument that perhaps DIVSA Eric Marsh had either ‘requested’ or was personally ‘directing’ this west-to-east desperation retardant line just laying there in the middle of the fuel. ( NOTE: Even Warbis and Lenmark testified they knew that wasn’t ‘normal’ or even going to be all that effective… but such was their feeling that SOMEONE needed to be doing SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell that day. It was the best that THEY could come up with… on their own ).
Back in Chapter 9 of this ongoing discussion… I finished my OWN research into that and concluded there is absolutely NO real evidence that ‘Bravo 3’ had ever been communicating at all with DIVSA Eric Marsh… or that ‘Bravo 3’ had ever actually communicated with ANYONE on the ground before THEY simply decided this retardant line was needed and that’s what they were going to start doing.
The very first DROP at the western end of this retardant line is when the DC10 VLAT had that scary near-collision with the Skycrane Helicopter. Everyone saw that… and some even filmed it… and STILL there was no attempt from any fire command person on the ground to improve communications with ‘Air Attack’. Everybody ( Bravo 3, the VLAT and the Skycrane chopper ) just went about their business ‘doing their own thing’ that day.
Again… I ask you… based on YOUR experience… does this sound even remotely NORMAL for Air-To-Air operations over a fire?
Is it NORMAL for them to just be up there doing (apprently) whatever the hell they THINK needs to be done without fully checking or coordinating their ‘choices’ with the people on the ground.
Please say NO ( That it isn’t normal at all ).
I would hate to think that this MASSIVE DISCONNECT between the Air and Ground forces being demonstrated pretty much ALL DAY on Sunday, June 30, 2013 was in any way ‘normal’.
If it is… then it’s a wonder there aren’t being bodies carted off the field all season long in any given year.
based on my experience not normal. The air effort needs to be coordinated with the ground effort through either communication with ops or directly with a div. i have seen AA given the latitude of picking “targets of opportuniy” but stiil working dirctly with ops/div. the communication from that aircraft to Ops on changing fire conditions / threat is paramount – after all they usually have the view in the event.
That being said, i have never seem AA dictating tactics to ground resources either until now.
Usually AA will make recommendation to Ops in regard to tactics and strategies- and oh, normally by day three AA would have a hard copy of the incident action plan.
Thank you.
Everyone seemed to be in their ‘own little world’ that day…. just ‘doing their own thing’.
It’s a wonder even MORE people didn’t die that day.
Followup to above…
It should be noted that the ‘conversation’ I am talking about where Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) were relayinig THEIR plan to start building this ‘deperation retardant line’ to DIVSZ Rance Marquez is the SAME conversation that ( according to Marquez himself ) was then ‘overheard’ my DIVSA Eric Marsh… and that is when Marsh got all pissed off and proceeded to have that ‘argument’ with Marquez.
Marquez had arrived in the Sesame Area ( around 12:15 PM ) where the Blue Ridge Hotshots were all just sitting around by their Carriers and doing NOTHING… and that is when he tried to contact DIVSA Marsh up on the ridge.
Marquez said he had no luck doing that ( some wrong tones on his radio, or something )… and the only person he could really establish contact with down there on the south end of the fire was ‘Air Attack’ itself.
So Marquez says that is when he ‘hit them up’ for an ‘overview’ of what the fire was doing… and that’s when Warbis and Lenmark relayed their observations and plans to Marquez’.
Somewhere in that conversation were some queries from ‘Bravo 3’ itself back to Marquez about where the ‘Division Boundaries’ really were there on the ground.
DIVSZ Marquez didn’t really KNOW. That is why he had been trying to call Marsh and that is what he was sent down there to DO… establish firm DIVSA and DIVSZ boundaries.
Marsh definitely overheard THAT part of Marquez’s conversation with ‘Bravo 3’… and moments later when Marquez WAS able to contact Marsh on a TAC channel… Marsh was all pre-pissed off about what he had heard and he accused Marquez of trying to ‘take away his real-estate’.
Marquez assured him that wasn’t the case… and that he was just ‘chatting’ with ‘Air Attack’ to try and get a general picture of the situation. They apparently ‘decided’ that the north/south boundary between Division A and Division Z would be the ‘old-grader’ location itself… but the point I am making is that there IS this body of evidence that whatever ‘intel’ Bravo 3 was passing on to DIVSZ Rance Marquez over the Air-To-Ground channel circa 12:15 PM… Eric Marsh was ‘listening’ to that and heard the same ‘report’.
So if we are talking about DIVS level people not relaying a crucial situational report from an Air Attack up to OPS or IC level… then ( theoretically ) DIVSA Eric Marsh lifted no more fingers to do that than DIVSZ Rance Marquez did.
The only thing DIVSA Marsh seemed concerned about from that conversation with ‘Bravo 3’ is that DIVSZ Marquez might have been trying to ‘take real-estate away from him’ without checking with HIM first.
As far as any ‘obligation’ to pass information up the chain, I would think that would fall on the actual ‘participant’ of the conversation (Marquez), as opposed to Marsh, who was just overhearing it and not a participant.
There is also the fact that this critical “expected fire behavior” report from Air Attack at 12:30 PM was over the “Air-To-Ground” channel.
You would THINK that at least ONE of the OPS people ( OPS1 Todd Abel or OPS2 Paul Musser ) would have ALSO ‘overheard it’ ( just like DIVSA Marsh did ) and would have realized how it should be significantly changing their ‘plans’.
But there is NO evidence any OPS level person was ever aware of this critical “What is GOING to happen later TODAY” coming from Air Attack as early as 12:30 PM that day.
As for IC Roy Hall.
fugeeeet about it.
IC Roy Hall has already testified that he didn’t even feel the need to be carrying a radio that day. That wasn’t his ‘command style’.
He was just on the phone all day in the principal’s office at the Model Creek School ICP trying to get TOMORROW figured out.
From Roy Hall’s testimony to the SAIT…
———————————–
“As IC; I empower my people and don’t listen to the radio. I wasn’t listening to the radio.”
———————————–
Also.. I was informed I have a bad typo above.
Proper written version of phrase used is…
Fuh-get about it.
An additional comment – i have been around a few IC’s ( type 1&2″s), most if not all trusted and empowered their team members, but all of them carried a radio and kept one ear on the incident, knowing that if something went to shit they are ultimately responsible (for the big picture).
*
* WHO IS THE ‘ONE OTHER’?
Glad to see the discission about the possible ‘plan’ continuing. It really could be the thing that Arizona Forestry has always been trying to HIDE.
The bottom line is we CANNOT make the following official Unit Log entry from Blue Ridge Hotshot ( and acting HEQB for the dozer ) Cory Ball just ‘go away’…
————————————————
Structure group one assigns me and ONE OTHER to
locate possibility of DOZER LINE to southwest of Yarnell.
—————————————–
So who the heck is this ONE OTHER that BR Hotshot Cory Ball has always been referring to and who (apparently) received the same instuctions he did from Cordes circa 1600.
Could it have been DIVSA Eric Marsh himself?
Just throwing this out . If marsh made it the bottom, and followed the rock outcropping that made up the north side of the deployment bowl. Could he have called in a GPS coordinate for that location, being the end location for the dozer line, and thus it would have been helpful to have someone at the beginning (ball) and at the end (marsh) of the proposed dozer line. Right?
Since it would behoove us to approach this with a completely ‘open’ mind again… I am going to say YES… that is a possibility.
In other words… it might even be possible that the ‘area’ there between the rock outcroppings at the east end of the north ridge of the box canyon ( which never actually ‘burned over’ on the top and where some of the unburned trees could still be seen following the tragedy ) was actually the ‘work destination’.
It’s possible that Marsh even misunderstood was was really ‘already’ happening and might have thought there was *supposed* to be plenty of new ‘dozer line’ in that area ready to be ‘prepped’ by Hotshots before they even got there.
Maybe Cordes didn’t realize that Cory Ball decided he was going to deliver that Blue Ridge Chase truck ( with UTV trailer ) back to the Ranch House Restaurant BEFORE even starting that ‘mission’ he’d been given by Cordes… and that just threw the timing all to hell… and prevented Ball from even returning to Justin and the dozer.
( I am obviously just thinking out loud here ).
If Marsh was AWARE ( in any way ) that Cordes was looking to do whatever it took to try and get that fire to ‘skirt around’ the western edge of Glen Ilah and not enter the subdivision… and Marsh was anywhere near that mouth of the box canyon from 1630 to 1637… then that would certainly be yet another possible explanation for his (supposed) unsolicited transmit to Bravo 3 ( at 1637 ) saying “That’s it… that’s where we want the retardant” even when Bravo 3 was just ‘circling around’ and happened to be seen on a ‘west to east’ vector at that time.
In thinking about the possibilities here… we should remember that we have already seen any number of times on this fire when it wasn’t even so much what the ACTUAL plan was… or what was ACTUALLY happening somewhere… people’s behavior was being influenced by bad communications and, in a lot of cases, simply what they THOUGHT ‘the plan’ was.
That still might have been the case with DIVSA Marsh… and ( perhaps ) Granite Mountain themselves.
It wasn’t that they really WERE ‘needed down there’ or that there was going to be TIME to actually accomplish some ‘plans’… it was whether they simply THOUGHT those things.
In fact… that is at the essence of what happened that day.
If there really HAD been time for them to accomplish that bushwhack that day… they would be alive. The reason they attempted it is because they simply THOUGHT they had the time.
While I am open to the information about a plan to build line across the North end of Glenn Isla I am still skeptical that it was any thing solid but a general Idea to protect Glen Isla.
It dose not sound like it was more than a thought that needed scouting and those suggesting it again had no information them self’s or personal information to go on.
Putting a Dozer line on both sides of the road into the BSR would not require any GPS
co-ordinance nor dose that usually happen. Fire lines are not road building the follow ridges, roads and other terrain.
I think who ever Ball was referring to was with him.
Also Cordis had no line of command over Marsh who was actually directly under OPS not
a Strike Team Leader in another Division.
I also go back again to Marsh Statement That they were moving to there safety Zone.
There would have been some statement from Marsh that they were moving to Glen Isla to
build Line Or tie in with a Cat to Build line.
The Safety Zone seemed to be their first and only objective between 1600 and 1700
On a Fire before you move and commit forces you need a clear plan scouted with an objective and the resources to complete it. None of this was done or cleared with the IC
So was it just a discussion or was it a plan not yet formulated or cleared thru COMMAND.
Your making some big jumps from Ball being ask to scout a possible Dozer line to an actual
authorized Plan that takes more than a scouting trip that had not been done and ended up not happening.
Again You do not move forces until you have a plan and a objective Cleared between
OPS and IC.
To be simple what your suggesting is a complete change in the Day shift Plan which takes full Command approval. You are pulling resources out of 2 Divisions to a new location on the Fire.
Yes Bob that is all correct and the way the system should work . However even though this was day three of the fire it was being attacked like an Initial Attack (AFU). To my knowledge there wasn’t a plan for this operation period-other than find an anchor and flank which became ineffective early on.
But yes, on an established and well managed incident that is the way it is supposed to work.
I did like your Hail Marry plan.
They did not have a written plan in the morning but seemed to have had a day shift plan that wasn’t exactly IA.
Neither OPS or IC were in the Know on what the Fire was doing North of Glen Isla
I believe they were over there heads at this point and the Fire was dictating its own plan by 1600 and the 20 to 40 MPH erratic winds.
There plan at that point if it was one in my assessment would have been a frontal attack—SUSIDE at that point.
They had a day plan just not sure what they expected to accomplish and it was very open ended and not in writing.. Type 2 short team should have had some clue evidently not.
Absolutely! And although tired from lack of sleep you would think that the transition would have had a little more detail -something as simple as maps!
Again , the ball was dropped from the beginning and it continued to get worse-even with the type 2 short team.
I guess that’s why they say there should be 19 Watch Out Situations.
#19 – Transition day on any wildland fire.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 9, 2014 at 4:47 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> While I am open to the information about a plan to build line
>> across the North end of Glenn Isla I am still skeptical that it
>> was any thing solid but a general Idea to protect Glen Isla.
Copy that. There is no ONE piece of evidence that establishes that there was this ‘concrete’ plan in place. There are only ‘bits and pieces’ of testimony and other evidence that would indicate there was this ‘plan’ being put into motion at the last minute.
Even Cory Ball’s unmistakable Unit Log entry simply establishes that Gary Cordes would have LIKED to put some dozer line in down there between the sout end of the Sesame area and on out towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Cory Ball decided to also fulfill a simultaneous directive from (presumably) his Caption ( Trew Brown ) to move the GM Chase Truck to the RHR before even starting that ‘scouting’ assignment from Cordes. Ball got ‘messed up’ doing that and then wasn’t even able to get back out to Justin and the dozer.
However… taken TOGETHER… all the little bits and pieces of evidence could be construed to mean there WAS something ‘planned’ for that area and that it was more ‘generally known’ ( amongst fire command like OPSs, DIVSs, SPGSs, IHCs, etc. ) than we have been previously led to believe.
Some might still call it a ‘rabbit hole’… but what if there really is a ‘rabbit’ there at the bottom of it?
It wouldn’t be the first time this ongoing discussion has taken a long, hard look at such a hole ( much to the chagrin of some )… and sure enough… there WAS a fuzzy creature sitting right there at the bottom of it.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It dose not sound like it was more than a thought that needed
>> scouting and those suggesting it again had no information
>> them self’s or personal information to go on.
Again… with regards to things that were happening that day… what it ‘sounded like’ from the available evidence and what it actually turned out to BE ( as more evidence emerged ) have often turned out to be two very different things.
This might be one of those times. Maybe. Maybe not… but still worth taking another ( hard ) look at.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Putting a Dozer line on both sides of the road into the BSR
>> would not require any GPS co-ordinance nor dose that
>> usually happen.
You would think that would have been the case for that simple dozer push on the ‘Cutover Trail’ that was just connecting the Sesame area over to the Youth Camp as well. Couldn’t be simpler, right?
In the (redacted) Blue Ridge Unit Logs that weren’t even released until February of 2014 we learn that both Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown made a special trip all the way around ( the long way ) from the Sesame area and then west on Shrine Road to the Youth camp JUST to obtain some GPS coordinates for the other end of that (simple) dozer push they were told to do ( apparently by Gary Cordes himself ). They have the toys… and they were in the habit of using them. All Brown had to do once they got there was look down at his (running) GPS unit and call the GPS coordinates back to Ball… which is exactly what he did.
Page 4 of the ‘Unit Logs’ that weren’t released until February, 2014.
This is in page xx of Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log…
NOTE: ( XXXXXX ) means sections REDACTED by US Forestry Service.
—————————————————————————–
( XXXXX ) calls and requests the dozer to put in a piece of line off
the main 2 track to the north that will tie into a road call shrine by
the youth camp. We drive down and tie in with him and get the info
and then pass it on to (XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX)
(XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX) We then drive back out to 89 and
then around on shrine towards the youth camp. I get a Lat long and
pass it on to ( XXXX ) and there are some engines in the area.
——————————————————————–
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Fire lines are not road building the follow ridges, roads and
>> other terrain.
There actually WERE some pretty visible ‘trails’ down there at the south end of the Sesame area ( where the dozer loboy was staged ) that pretty much connected due west over to the Boulder Springs Ranch cattle pond. From there… it was also kind of ‘no brainer’ to push some line that would have connected to those solid rock outcrops on the north side of the BSR itself.
It actually wouldn’t have taken much ‘scouting’ at all to realize it WAS possible to do what the ‘plan’ seemed to be. Cory Ball just never got the chance to do that and tell Justin to ‘go ahead and push it’ with the dozer.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I think who ever Ball was referring to was with him.
Possible… but the reason I do NOT think this ‘ONE OTHER’ he is referring to was Justin ( the dozer operator? ) is because I think if it had been… his Unit Log note would have simply just said that.
It’s actually a little mysterious why a guy ( Cory Ball ) that was obviously freely using other people’s REAL NAMES in other places in his Unit Log ( which all ended up REDACTED by US Forestry, anway )… would then not have just NAMED this ‘ONE OTHER’ he was referring to in THAT Unit Log note.
Actually… if there really was some attempt by US Forestry to ‘mask’ any references to any kind of ‘last minute plan’ in the Blue Ridge Unit Logs with those HUGE redactions… then its a wonder they missed this entry from Cory Ball saying he was specifically assigned by Cordes to ‘check that out ASAP’.
Maybe we are seeing an actual SCREW UP here on the part of US Foresty.
Maybe they meant to REDACT that line of Ball’s, too, but they just missed it.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Also Cordis had no line of command over Marsh who was
>> actually directly under OPS not a Strike Team Leader in another Division.
On the ‘org chart’… no… but I think the ‘org chart’ was somewhere in the same place where the maps of the area were that someone also forgot to pass out that day to the people who really needed them.
They were all ‘making this up as they went along’ that day… and for all intents and purposes… SPGS1 Gary Cordes WAS the ‘acting Division Z SUP’ for that southeast part of the fire that entire day.
It was Gary Cordes who decided where all the morning dozer work should be.
It was Gary Cordes who decided the ‘Cutover Trail’ should be dozed and that
Blue Ridge Hotshots should ‘improve’ it.
It was Gary Cordes who sent Esquibel and Engines to Harper Canyon.
And it was Gary Cordes who told BR Hotshot Ball to go ‘check out’ that possible emergency dozer push there out bear the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Marsh would have known it was the “Gary Cordes show’ down there in Yarnell… and regardless of ‘titles’ that day… I think Marsh would have considered him just another DIVS on the fire and his ‘equal’.. Marsh *might* have even been considering Cordes ‘Just another OPS’ that day… the way things were going.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I also go back again to Marsh Statement That they were moving
>> to there safety Zone. There would have been some statement
>> from Marsh that they were moving to Glen Isla to build Line Or
>> tie in with a Cat to Build line.
You are talking about the radio, and what Marsh may or may not have felt like telling anyone over THAT device.
What if everything to do with this ’emergency plan’ took place over cellphone?
What if everyone on any kind of ‘need to know’ basis for this emergency plan was at the end of a cellphone, fully informed, and Marsh knew that. He might have (then) felt no need to inform anyone else over open radio channels.
I am not trying to be argumentative here.
I actually SHARE your opinion here that there SHOULD have been more ‘clear communications’ from Eric Marsh about all this if that’s what was happening and, indeed, what his ‘motiviation’ was.
But this would be the same Eric Marsh who was asked DIRECTLY by someone in fire command ( over the radio ) circa 4:16 if he was WITH Granite Mountain at that time ( because Bravo 33 really wanted to know if he was, or not ) and Marsh didn’t even feel the need to answer that direct question with a clear answer.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Safety Zone seemed to be their first and only objective
>> between 1600 and 1700
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> On a Fire before you move and commit forces you need a
>> clear plan scouted with an objective and the resources to
>> complete it.
Gary Cordes thought Cory Ball WAS ‘scouting it’ ( the emergency dozer push )
Eric Marsh was ( according to all available evidence ) doing nothing BUT ‘scouting’ all day long and it even appears that is what he was doing even shortly before his own death. Was it really just ‘the way to the ranch’… or was he ‘scouting’ more than that?
Gary Cordes told OPS2 Paul Musser “I need more resources to do THAT’.
We still don’t know what Cordes meant by THAT in his ADOSH testimony.
THAT could have meant ‘the emergency dozer push to protect Glen Ilah’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> None of this was done or cleared with the IC
You mean Roy Hall?
Roy Hall was USELESS that day.
He was just ‘hiding’ in the principal’s office at the Model Creek School and totally absorbed in TOMORROW and in bumping the Incident up to another level.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So was it just a discussion or was it a plan not yet formulated
>> or cleared thru COMMAND.
See above. If cellphones were being used then every single COMMAND person who needed to know about this ’emergency plan’ MAY have been fully aware it was being attempted.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Your making some big jumps from Ball being ask to scout
>> a possible Dozer line to an actual authorized Plan.
Yes… but it isn’t just an itch on my nose taking me in that direction.
Taken altogether… and including some new things we can now hear Gary Cordes actually saying in the heretofore HIDDEN and UNKNOWN Hulburd videos… there are ‘bits and pieces’ of information here that might be ‘adding up’.
Just as US Forestry obviously has been withholding ( and CONTINUES to withhold ) crucial evidence they have in their possession from both the public and the people who were tasked ( by LAW ) to investigate this incident…
…it is just as likely there are important things that were happening that day which they don’t want us to know about, as well.
This ’emergency plan’ to protect Glen Ilah with some (literally) ‘last-ditch’ efforts might be one of those things.
SIDENOTE: This is ‘off topic’ but something just occurred to me.
Did the actual commonly used phrase ‘last ditch effort’ actually originate in the fire service… whereby one of the last desperate things you can do to try and stop or redirect a fireline is to start digging ‘ditches’ in its path?
Followup… I went off and satisfied my own curiosity about ‘last ditch effort’
Turns out it goes all the way back to William III of England and its origins are more military than anything else.
From…
A History of Expressions and Sayings
http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/sayingsl.htm
Last ditch (effort) – a final, often desperate, attempt at something
Originally a military term, the last ditch of your defences would be the final rallying point, your last chance to avoid defeat. William III of England (1689-1702) is supposed to have claimed ‘I will die in the last ditch’, and during the American War of Independence, the Citizens of Westmoreland issued a grandiloquent proclamation in 1798 saying, ‘In War We know but one additional Obligation, To die in the Last Ditch or uphold our Nation’. The expression was being used figuratively by the 1820s.
This looks pretty good to me after a quick Google search:
“Idiom of the Day — a Last-Ditch Effort”
January 7, 2011 @ 11:01 AM
posted by English with Jo
“Did you know…? The expression ‘a last-ditch effort’ has its origins in military terminology. The ‘last ditch’ was, in military terms, the last line of defence.”
Deborah Grant says:
June 9, 2011 at 5:17 pm
“The origin dates back to 1672. France and England attacked the Dutch Republic and occupied several provinces. The Duke of Buckingham, acting for King Charles II, told William of Orange, the young Dutch commander, that his country was lost. William’s reply was: “My lord, my country is indeed in danger, but there is one way never to see it lost, and that is to die in the last ditch.”
Marjorie Bowen in her essay “William III and the Revolution of 1688” writes: “This expression has passed into the English language, but reference is seldom made to its originator. . . . The reference is to the cutting of dykes , the desperate expedient whereby the higher levels of Holland had been saved by flooding the parts below sea level, thus ringing the Province with water as a defence. William meant that he would cut one dyke (ditch) after another and perish in the last.
Sources: “William III and the Revolution of 1688”
William of Orange: A Personal Portrait”
http://www.englishwithjo.com/idiom-of-the-day-a-last-ditch-effort/
WTKTT == LOL!
So I guess, metaphorically speaking, in the world of wildland fire-fighting…
A last-minute dozer line is
something of a defensive
“last-ditch” attempt, all things considered.
Unfortunately, this one didn’t have a
Prayer of
Working as “planned.”
Arizona question. Anyone on here from Arizona? Anyone on here know how the legal system works? Need legal advice about representing myself as well as attend a meeting where for the first time to my life where I know the people at meeting do not want my presence yet I will be there. I am really struggling even though Otis and fed guy you gave me that pep email. I am meeting this weekend for more information and where are the ones in the past month that said they had some—I have to find you again. Let me tell you something for someone we care about alot shut his door hard on me and side to the recent horseshit…it hurt me. Why does there have to be a side on this fire. Or not hear ours on the recent stuff and just opt to choose we had to be in the wrong and state “you did wrong- this is a small town”—slam! door shut. YUK!
Thank you to local Theresa. I needed that. Thank You God. I just am not use to the door slammed and division and separation when all I have tried to do is rebuild and you “know” all the locals and what I am up against so it was good to hear I do not need legal advice and just relax. I just despise this slander is all and not looking forward to Monday so was hoping to have legal representation for that day but Theresa read all I gave to Chief Ben Palm and knows the other person and she is straight up person and if I was in the wrong SHE WOULD TELL ME and she agrees after all we have seen and she knows so I feel better, Sonny don’t care either way. He just feels it can’t go anywhere because he has no ground to stand on just b.s. and ruin others views on the hikers- who cares. I care though especially ruining relations with the person in charge of Sonny’s place…that could make or break that and that is not nice. I guess like Theresa said keep being gentle and soft yet firm to my letter/facts and it will all be okay. Marti- we are seeing that guy again and after I write this I am going to address him why two days now we can be over 30 miles from Yarnell and seeing him. Way strange. ODD!
we were led to a lawyer and did receive good information from a lawyer who goes up against state and federals—
smiles.
thank God too.
Joy~
Even though your later post says, in essence, that you have been helped and no longer seem to feel you need legal counsel……
All things considered…..
If I were you, I would definitely be doing some “checking around” to find someone who could, if needed, provide that legal counsel.
I’m sorry the community has been split asunder by all of this, but I’m really not surprised. There are a lot of competing interests here, and the way this whole “investigation” thing has proceeded, it hasn’t had any concern for how regular people on the ground are being affected by it.
Remember, the “powers that be” have a vested interest in keeping people divided, when their interests are being, possibly, threatened. Which I definitely think is the case here.
I’m just still seriously mystified and concerned about that person that looks and talks like Jim Karels being there, at this time. Like, really.
I have no clue as to what may be happening in all of this, and as it relates to you.
But, truly, all things considered, if I were you, I would be doing some serious looking into possible lawyers, just in case.
Maybe, I’m thinking, all things considered, JD himself, all things considered, might be a reliable resource in this. As a matter of fact, if I were you, I would definitely ask him.
When I was up in Flagstaff, in the second half of the 1980’s, working on a bunch of environmental and Native American land issues, we had an Environmental Lawyer who was working with us. He was EXTREMELY valuable to us in what we were doing.
I didn’t ASSUME I would need him, personally, but it really helped to be able to work with him and talk with him and know he had the expertise to advise us if we needed that.
Not ALL lawyers are “dubious.” But you have to be careful. I’ve seen lawyers betray the people they were, supposedly, “representing.”
I really think both you and Sonny, might do well to search (via the internet or “in real life” connections) for lawyers in your neck of the woods who might be interested in/concerned about what you are discovering and experiencing.
Remember, a bird in hand is worth more than a bunch of them lost somewhere in the bush.
Seriously.
I did get someone who guided us for Monday’s meeting. I hope it NEVER comes to it but thanks to this site and certain folks READING it…G.E. ended up helping us—real fine woman to do that with her busy schedule too.
**
** VOICES IN THE STATIC
Since we are still in the process of analyzing the 21 new videos recently released by the US Forestry Division… I’ve been trying various accepted special techniques to filter out radio static to try and hear ‘voices’ that might be there in the static at various places in these ‘new’ videos.
For example: I am still working hard on trying to identify the voices heard in the static in one of the new videos where Aaron Hulburd himself ( in the foreground ) immediately says… “That’s gotta be Eric or Jesse” and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ( standing right next to Hulburd ) agrees and says “Yea… that’s gotta be them”. This was just PRIOR to Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY call at 1639.
That transmission they are referring to is absolutely FILLED with STATIC ( but there ARE voices there ) and I have been working overtime here trying to get that STATIC filtered down to the point where those voices can be heard better.
I’m not ready to publish anything ( or even any assumptions ) about that particular NEW ‘static filled transmission’ ( still working on THAT one )… but I have also taken some of these accepted ‘radio static’ filtering techniques and gone back and applied them to ANOTHER long-standing piece of radio static that ALSO has ‘voices’ in it.
That would be the very first ‘Static filled transmission’ following the MAYDAY traffic in Hulburd’s M2U00265 video ( also known as the ‘Original Helmet Cam’ video ).
There have always been THREE ‘Static filled transmissions’ in that ‘Original Helmet Cam’ video just after we hear Eric Marsh’s final clear transmission from the deployment site when he says “Affirm” to Johh Burfiend’s question “So… you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”.
These STATIC transmissions were heard ( and reported ) by a LOT of other people in their testimony to investigators… and have also been referred to as the ‘keyed mic’ transmissions.
The FIRST of these ‘keyed mic’ / STATIC transmissions has ALWAYS appeared to have ‘voices’ in it. The SECOND one is more of a ‘pulsing’ mess of static with no discernible ‘voices’ and the THIRD was just a quick pulse of SOLID STATIC, also with no discernible ‘voices’ in it.
John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ also seemed to hear all THREE of these ‘keyed mic’ transmits during that time since he was actively trying to ‘hail’ Division Alpha on the Air-To-Ground channel and he was obviously listening intently for ANYTHING to ‘come back’.
In MOST cases… John Burfiend himself seemed to ‘react’ to these ‘keyed mic’ transmits as if they WERE ‘responses’ to his queries down to ‘Division Alpha’. It has always appeared as if Burfiend was just ‘assuming’ ( and rightly so ) that Eric Marsh WAS trying to respond to him but it was just coming out as STATIC filled transmissions when (perhaps) Marsh would key his mic trying to respond to him.
Using these techniques for ‘radio static’ filtering and reduction, I believe I am now able to hear what that ‘voice’ is saying in that FIRST section of static following Eric Marsh’s final clear transmission. That’s the one that was captured by Hulburd’s camera at +3:22 into the video… just after he had hopped in his truck and was now driving it EAST on Shrine Road ( with the camera still running and capturing radio traffic ). The ACTUAL time this FIRST static-filled transmission took place was 1642.35 ( 4:42:35 PM )… just after Marsh’s “Affirm” transmission.
CAVEAT: I am still not 100 percent sure about this… but I would go as high as 90 percent.
The VOICE that is inside of that FIRST static filled transmission appears to say…
“Structure ONE… this is Paul”.
In other words… this FIRST ‘keyed mic’ and STATIC filled transmission does NOT appear to have been coming from the deployment site at all.
It *appears* to have been an attempt by OPS2 Paul Musser to contact SPGS1 Gary Cordes just SECONDS after Eric Marsh had made it clear that Granite Mountain was now ‘deploying’ out in the box canyon.
The new Video/Audio clip ( with some filtering applied ) is HERE on YouTube…
http://youtu.be/MngXri85eaw
EAR WARNING: The new clip first plays the 20 seconds from Hulburd Video M2U00265 that contains this first ‘static filled transmission’, then it will enter a LOOP where only the FIVE seconds of static ( with the VOICE in it ) repeats EIGHT times. This LOOP has a ‘gain boost’ applied in order to hear the background voice more clearly and some people might find this to be too LOUD for comfort. Please be sure to keep your local VOLUME low when first listening to this clip and then ONLY increase your volume to the point where you are not uncomfortable and/or the audio is not hurting your ears.
I would like to know if anyone else hears what I appear to now be hearing in this ‘filtered’ version of this transmission.
Again… I am almost ( but not 100 percent ) certain the first two words are ‘Structure ONE’… but there are some alternate interpretations for what appear to be the last THREE words spoken.
I’d like to hear what some other people think they *might* be hearing there before I say what I believe *could* be an alternate interpretation for the last three words of that transmission.
** RELATED TO ‘THE PLAN’?
IAOI ( If And Only If ) I am right about what is being said ‘in the static’ there… then I suppose it is possible this callout from OPS2 Musser to SPGS1 Cordes *might* have had something to do with this ‘plan’ that has been discussed lately.
It may very well be that the (supposed) ‘plan’ to try and cut some last-minute dozer line to protect Glen Ilah in the Sesame / BSR Ranch area was completely known to OPS2 Paul Musser and, in fact, might have actually been HIS idea that day.
I don’t know how the possibility that the very FIRST radio call that OPS2 Paul Musser might have been making after hearing Eric Marsh’s ‘deployment’ traffic was direct to SPGS1 Gary Cordes… ( instead of anyone else ) would EXACTLY relate to ‘the plan’… but perhaps it had SOMETHING to do with Musser’s knowledge of ‘the plan’ and what Granite Mountain’s involvement in it was supposed to be.
It should be noted that even if that really is OPS2 Paul Musser calling direct to SPGS Gary Cordes just seconds after the ‘deployment’ news… it does NOT appear that Cordes either HEARD this callout from Musser OR actually ever responded before Aaron Hulburd video M2U00264 ( The Original Helmet Cam Video ) actually ENDS.
WTKTT,
Once again, thank you for all the good information.
It really does help to turn the volume way down.
I tried really hard to hear “Structure ONE… this is Paul”.
It sure sounds like it MAY be what this person is saying. Good job at any rate
RTS… Thank you for listening. There have been LOTS of ‘hits’ on that recording I just posted ( over 54 hits as of this writing )… but looks like you are the only one who has anything to say about it… so thanks.
There are times, with this stuff, when I think it’s just as important to establish what something is NOT as much as it is important to establish what things ARE.
With regards to this FIRST piece of ‘static’ following Marsh’s final words… I think it is safe to say now what it is NOT.
It is NOT ( as some have thought )… “Eric Marsh’s final words”.
As long as that ‘voice’ has been there in that static some have thought it was Eric Marsh trying to talk to Bravo 33 one last time.
Even if I am not 100 percent sure of the words… I am convinced now ( myself ) that it is NOT Eric Marsh speaking. I don’t know WHO it is… but I know Eric’s voice well enough now to be sure ( for myself ) that it is NOT him speaking inside of that static.
So I believe it’s safe to say that unless some other recording emerges… the final word(s) of Eric Marsh we will ever hear remains the word “Affirm” in response to John Burfiend’s question “So… you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”
Only a new interview ( or deposition ) from either Gary Cordes or Paul Musser ( or both ) has any chance of actually proving that what is being said there is…
“Structure ONE… this is Paul”.
…but if the chance ever arises… that’s definitely one more question you can add to the already LONG list that these guys need to be asked.
Another post be former Sierra Hot Shot Superintendent from the Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy YHF blog.
“Kenneth M. Jordan December 8, 2014 at 1:43 am
Sorry, I shouldn’t let my ego get in the way when it comes to trying to save firefighters lives, Although I feel it may still a feeble attempt at trying to explain things to non fire people, maybe it could help those who “get it”. I forget to mention, in the Clear Creek scenario, the fire didn’t “come at” any one as stated. It couldn’t have, because all of the crews had “one foot in the black all times” like we were supposed to under the conditions (one foot in the black means we were going direct using the burn as a safety zone, , going direct means we were removing unburnt fuel from the burnt fuel to create a mineral soil fire break with an anchor in the 50 foot wide three foot deep Clear Creek with Mark 111 pump and hose support.) No one involved had any intention of reengaging, the fire burned 20,000 more acres in one burning period! Ain’t gonna happen!
To finish up on the statement mentioned before this one, and simplify things for all, about the “you Know” tragedy, without offending anyone by trying to save lives in the future, As far as Human behavior, I might recommend reading the book ” Uncool” By Ed Gutfeld, It basically states that most if not all poor choices or decisions are base on the attempt to be “cool” or try to look good in front our peers, this could include our crew members, the community, over head, or even our family. Lets refer to the Clear Creek Model again, (thanks for bringing it up) the crews basically “broke the cool barrier” by staying in the black and not reengaging during very extreme yet very predictable and typical fire behavior.
June 30th Region three 5 days before historical Monsoon season, after a fuels warning and heat warning were given for the area, couldn’t have been a more typical, predictable and extreme fire behavior scenario for Local crews, combine this with the Dude fire model, (entrapment under similar conditions.) pyrocumulis buildup, high Haines, low fuel moisture , High temperatures, towering cumulis buildup in the area, and the availability of the IRPG ( LCES, Fire orders and18 situations that shout watch out,) We would then, most likely have to consider Human behavior and or PPP “perceived peer pressure” (my term) or the driving need to engage during the height of the burning burning period, instead of performing the first priority in our Job which is…
not saving structures, property or brush… but being safe. (as was done on the Clear Creek fire) as one if not the main causal factor in the “you know ” entrapment. Not to consider this as one, if not the main causal factors in an entrapment would in turn simply be an attempt to “be cool” or politically correct, and in turn be a casual factor in future entrapments. We might refer to “hazardous attitudes ” page 6 IRPG as something that would be in line with that observation.
As far as any ongoing argument of who’s responsibility an entrapment was, consider that we teach all of our firefighters down to the newest person to “fight fire aggressively and provide for safety first” We also teach them that it is their final responsibility and right as an individual , not someone else’s, to turn down an unsafe assignment, we even offer turn down protocol” How to properly to refuse risk” page 17 IRPG to assist with this priority. ……. Now I can go — See Ya!”
Ken has some good insight in fighting fire by ‘The Rules’ and utilizing the ‘How to Properly Refuse Risk’ or Turn Down protocol.
Just to add to the above YHF Blog has called me out 4 times including calling me a Toadie to elicit a response from me. I have not nor will I get involved with Elizabeth’s Blog which is there only to demean and attack Fire Fighters.
I will still put up my 33 years with out a deployment or serious injury of all the crews that worked under me. I and my people always followed the 10 and 18 without fail. And yes I and my crews have been in a Safety Zone Burn over 3 seperiate times why because it was always part of our plan to stay SAFE.
So I will say as I have and not feel bad about it Marsh and Steed and the Granit Mountain Crew Failed to follow LCES and the 10 &18 and they got caught.
I am not talking about the people who are Dead I am talking to all the Fire Fighters out there that need to remember the Simple lesson learned and follow proven Safety Rules.
Its your life and the Crews that work for you.
I haven’t had luck in posting lately, but think it’s worth trying to thank RTS for reproducing Kenneth Jordan’s post here. I appreciate Mr. Jordan’s advice on maintaining the C in LCES and the discussion of “perceived peer pressure.” I will check out “Uncool” this winter. Thank you both very much!
Hey Sitta!
I’ll make it easy for you. You don’t have to wait for this winter. I have it right in my pocket, just for you. It’s an awesome interview.
KEN JORDAN
Retired Hotshot Superintendent | Interviewed April, 2014 | California
http://thesmokeygeneration.com/?page_id=361
The part regarding “cool” is in the “Shelter Deployment Take-away” third video in the strip at the bottom:
“Ken Jordan, retired Hotshot Superintendent, talks about how his shelter deployment changed how he approached firefighting and running the crew, including placing emphasis on training and physical agility, changing the culture of after-hours drinking, and “breaking the cool barrier.””
He then, in the second half of that video, speaks of his “gut sense” that that “cool barrier” may have played a part in the Granite Mountain Hotshots decision to do what they did.
As I wrote way down below, Ken and his crew were assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire Monday July 1.
All of his interview is really really good. It’s a really well-done project.
Thanks for the link, Marti. Great interview clips.
Reply to Robert the Secondd post on December 7, 2014 at 5:40 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, I am posting this “Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes’
>> reply up top due to impending space constraints on your thread below.
Got it. Thanks. BTW… watch adding that second ‘D’ onto the end of your username when posting. You used ‘Secondd’ instead of ‘Second’ for that last posting and if the comment fell into moderation that is probably why. WordPress was thinking you were someone other than ‘Robert The Second’. It’s picky that way ( spelling )..
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I am citing from “Decision Making Under Uncertain
>> and Risky Situations by M. T. Taghavifard,
>> K. Khalili Damghani, and R. Tavakkoli Moghaddam and
>> the Society of Actuaries”
>>
>> C:\Users\Owner\AppData\Local\temp\mono-2009-m-as09-1-damghani-2.pdf
>>
>> If the link does not work, then copy and paste the title and author and
>> search for it. It is well worth reading if you are interested in some
>> of the vagaries of Decision Making.
Thank you. YES… I was able to download the document AOK… but that link above was never going to work. It’s a link to a file on your own Windows machine. The file got saved on your Windows machine where the Browser normally saves TEMP data.
The correct ( DIRECT ) link to the online document is…
NOTE: This link will not produce a web page. It is a direct link to the document itself and you will immediately be presented with a ‘Download’ option window in your browser asking you where you want to SAVE this Adobe PDF document onto your own hard drive…
https://www.soa.org/library/monographs/other-monographs/2009/april/mono-2009-m-as09-1-damghani.pdf
>> RTS also wrote…
>>
>> “Decision makers often face a severe lack of information.”
>> GMHS did NOT have” a severe lack of information.” They had
>> ALL the information they need to stay in the “good black.”
Yep.
OPS1 Todd Abel even told ADOSH that Eric Marsh had pretty much the BEST view of the fire AND the approaching weather of ANYONE on the fire.
OPS1 Todd Abel reminded ADOSH that Marsh could ‘see the WORLD from up there’ and that Marsh told him he was TOTALLY aware of the approaching weather.
Eric Marsh could see it better than anyone.
From page 40 of OPS1 Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview…
—————————————————————————
1736 A: Uh, so I talked to Eric Marsh, Division Alpha on the radio.
1738
1739 Q1: Right.
1740
1741 A: Um, we talked about the weather, we talked about the monsoons thet were
1742 building to the north and the south of us.
1743
1744 Q1: North and south.
1745
1746 A: Yes. The one buil- and – and I said do you have eyes on both of them? And
1747 he’s – you know – he’s up on this ridge, he can see the world up there.
1748
1749 Q1: Yeah. Right.
1750
1751 A: He says yep I got eyes on both, one to the south and one to the north. I said
1752 okay you can see the one to north through the smoke? He said yep we can see
1753 it. Okay. I said that one’s making me nervous, ‘cause it’s building and it’s
1754 collapsing and it’s building and it’s collapsing and I watched it do it two or
1755 three times. So we had really good dialogue on you know the predicted
1756 weather, the monsoon build up and that one to the north making me nervous.
1757 Um, so I – you know I said you – you – make sure you keep eyes on that thing.
1758 He said affirmative, we got eyes on it.
————————————————————————
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Clearly, the GMHS did NOT fall into the “Decision Making Under
>> Pure Uncertainty” category. because they had ALL the information
>> they needed to stay in the safe “good black.”
Absolutely. No question.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The GMHS were CLEARLY in the “Decision Making Under Risk” category.
Yes. Clearly.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> HOWEVER, it appears that they did NOT properly (1) “define
>> the problem” and did NOT consider all the :feasible alternatives”
>> and. ALL “possible outcomes for each alternative” were
>> NOT properly evaluated.
Actually… they may have done ALL of that.
IMPORTANT: By THEY I am only talking about Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.
These TWO men are the ones that took the other 17 along for that ‘ride’ that day.
They MAY have ‘Defined a (perceived) problem’ ( We don’t want to just sit here ).
They MAY have ‘Considered all feasible alternatives’ ( Only one puts us ‘into the ballgame’ )
They MAY have ‘Considered all possible outcomes’ ( We could die. Probly won’t )
…and they just frickin’ went ahead and did it anyway.
Eric Marsh’s COLLEGE MOTTO ( which he borrowed for Granite Mountain )…
Esse Quam Verdi (To Be, Rather Than To Seem).
“Gaggle up, fellas. We’re moving out.”
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It appears that the GMHS also did NOT adequately
>> (2) discuss their net gain (making it to the BSR ahead
>> of the clearly visible and clearly predictable flaming front)
>> “in reference to time.”
>> It appears that the GMHS did NOT adequately (3) discuss
>> and/or quantify the “various uncertainties … in terms of probabilities.”
>> And finally it appears that the GMHS did NOT (4) discuss “the quality
>> of the optimal strategy [dependent] upon the quality of the judgments.”
>> Otherwise they would have stayed put in their perfectly adequate
>> Safety Zone. And it apprears that the GMHS “decision maker[s] did
>> NOT identify and examine the sensitivity of the optimal strategy
>> with respect to the crucial factors.”
See above.
They MAY have actually ( sort of ) done ALL of that ( ‘comfort level’ discussions and/or possible ‘arguments’ )…but they just couldn’t stand to be ‘out of the game’ and they went ahead and frickin’ decided to try the risky move anyway.
No guts. No glory.
It is, however, MORE likely they did NONE of that, as you say.
They were most likely acting out of ingrained HABIT with their ‘decision making’ process.
Just another day at work. No big whoop.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So, the GMHS supervisors. I allege made bad decisions out of habit, “without going
>> through the decision making process steps systematically” and without following
>> the WFF standards of LCES and the Ten Standard Fire Orders and the guidelines
>> under the 18 Watch Out Situations. I allege that the research paper conclusion in the
>> above paragraph fits quite accurately in describing why things happened they way
>> they did that day on 30 June 2013.
>>
>> Bad Decisions with Prior Good Outcomes.
Have to agree.
Keyword = HABIT
People don’t ‘suddenly’ change their decision making habits on any particular Sunday.
They ‘do as they always do’.
According to the only member of that crew that LIVED that day, this ‘do as they always do’ with regards to LCES and the 10 and 18 was just (quote) “Hillbilly stuff”.
Pretty much everything Brendan McDonough knows about Wildland Firefighting he learned from the TWO men that led 17 others to their deaths on June 30, 2013… and here are excerpts from what Brendan told the ADOSH investigators when they asked him what he ‘knew’ about ‘Wildland Firefighting Safety Rules’…
From Brendan McDonough’s ADOSH interview, 10/10/2013…
————————————————————————————
959 Q2: Okay, um, Brendan, what are the safety rules that apply to wildland
960 firefighting?
961
962 A: There’s a book on em. We have our standard operating guides.
963
964 Q2: Okay.
965
966 The 10 and 18. And I’m – there’s a lot more.
987 And, you know, some – sometimes you can’t abide by every single one of
988 ‘em. (…) It’s not a – they’re not mandatory, you know? It’s just when you start
1010 seeing a lot of those is when you start to reevaluate what you’re doing. It’s
1011 just, uh, to kinda remind yourself.
1017
1018 So – and we study ‘em all the time. They’re there for a reason because when
1019 you see ‘em, it’s – it’s a trigger in your brain that it’s not safe. And it makes
1020 you step back and look around and see what’s going on. I mean, you see in
1021 there, it says, “Fight fire aggressively, providing for safety.”
1022
1023 Q2: I don’t, uh, that doesn’t make any sense to me, it’s like jumbo shrimp.
1024
1025 A: It’s – it’s hillbilly. It’s what it is.
1026
1027 Q2: Yeah.
1028
1029 A: It’s old. It’s, uh, no offense to whoever came up with that, um, I mean no
1030 disrespect to anybody, but, I mean, it is the way they fight wildland fires today
1031 is, I mean… We’re smart. We’re a lot smarter.
—————————————————————————–
I still think someone should start printing the posters that should be required to hang in all crew/squad ready rooms that say…
“It’s better to be a LIVE Hillbilly than a DEAD smart guy”.
WTKTT,
As always, thanks for your insight on your post. I figured you would benefit from the Decision Matrix post. There are SO many, but this one seemed to be most relevant to our discussion.
Regarding the URL link, please let me know how you actually retrieved the one you have above. I tried numerous times, obviously unsuccessful. Thanks
Reply to Robert the Second post on December 8, 2014 at 11:22 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> As always, thanks for your insight on your post. I figured you
>> would benefit from the Decision Matrix post. There are SO many,
>> but this one seemed to be most relevant to our discussion.
Yes. It is DIRECTLY relevant. What happened at the Yarnell Hill Fire is ( to date ) the greatest ‘blunder’ in the history of Wildland Firefighting and it will ALWAYS be important for the WFF industry to STUDY this fire… what went wrong… and try to make sure ( as much as humanly possible ) that nothing like that EVER happens again. Not EVER.
The ‘decision making’ ( or lack thereof ) that fateful day is the REASON for the tragedy… and the document you cited couldn’t be more relevant.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Regarding the URL link, please let me know how you actually
>> retrieved the one you have above. I tried numerous times, obviously
>> unsuccessful. Thanks
Well… the URL you posted was…
C:\Users\Owner\AppData\Local\temp\mono-2009-m-as09-1-damghani-2.pdf
That was obviously pointing to a file sitting under the ‘Users’ folder on your own Windows machine C: drive.
So I just ‘cut’ the filename ONLY into my clipboard… which was then just…
mono-2009-m-as09-1-damghani-2.pdf
…and then I pasted ONLY that filename into the ‘Google Search’ bar.
WHAMO. It was then the FIRST search result found by Google, right at the top of the first page of search results…
—————————————————————–
(PDF) Decision Making under Uncertain and Risy Situations
K. Khalili Damghani. – R. Tavakkoli Moghaddam.
Copyright 2009 by the Society of Actuaries.
—————————————————————–
The link found by Google is a DIRECT link to the PDF document itself… so if you click it you immediately get a download box appearing asking you where you want to SAVE the PDF file on your own computer.
If you wanted to ( instead ) COPY that link to that document so you could post it in an email or something… here is what you do…
RIGHT-CLICK the actual (Blue) Highlighted title of the document on the Google Search results page and then pick ‘Copy Link Location’ on the little menu that pops up.
You have now copied the full ‘Hyperlink’ to that document to your clipboard.
( But you’re not done yet ).
If you now just ‘paste’ that ‘Link’ into an email or text document… you will see that is ridiculously LONG and contains all kind of CRAP at that front that is going to cause a ‘redirect’ through Google’s own Servers.
That is because Google is ALWAYS ‘watching everything you do’ and they will be RECORDING what search links you have clicked on before actually sending you to the page you want.
The way to defeat this ‘tracking’ by Google is to look at the URL yourself you
just copied using ‘Copy Link Location’.
Way out to the right is a CGI query field that starts with the prefix ‘url=’ and then has the ACTUAL link to the document you want to see starting with ‘http’.
Just cut that URL out of that long pile of Google crap and now you have the ACTUAL link to the ACTUAL document you want to look at… and you can access that document without going through Google’s ‘recording’ scheme.
I haven’t visited here in a while. (Several Chapters) I don’t have much of an attention span to begin with and it completely shuts off when the ” back and forth stuff” and insults starts. I am asking everyone to humor me and In two or three sentences, what is everyone’s current working theory about why GM bumped from the black and into that chute/box canyon? Sometimes it is good to put all the working theories on the table and see where everyone is at….
-My theory Is; they were asked to move and go down below. I’m not convinced who asked and I don’t think it was a direct order. I do think the pressure of the “show” going to shit and GM wanting to look solid on a local fire for their crew reputation and ultimately their future, weighted on there decision to bump out of the black. I’ve always thought the truth lied in the cell phone conversations…My 2 cents…
exactly Eric. Sonny shares some of your views and I share some of your views—Sonny on the being asked to go down and Joy for the cell phones which I said from day one too.
anyone here—if you know any neat health sites—open to suggestion—have to lower the bilirubin count alot and the list goes on—so comparing the different labs and tests and some still absorbing and some right on—I am beat tired so maybe next week I will get into it more but always like good medical health sites—
sure is good to see Eric back around—
Thank you Joy..
Reply to Eric post on December 7, 2014 at 10:03 pm
>> Eric said…
>>
>> I am asking everyone to humor me and In two or three sentences,
>> what is everyone’s current working theory about why GM bumped
>> from the black and into that chute/box canyon?
In ‘two or three sentences’. Seriously? Okay… I’ll give it a shot…
NOTE: Any reference to THEY below ONLY means either Eric Marsh and/or Jesse Steed.
‘They’ were the ones who led 17 other guys to their deaths that day.
1) A Hotshot crew got caught on a ridge on a bad fire… but they were totally SAFE there.
2) Something happened to make them forget that and try to please someone else.
3) They ignored almost every rule they were ever taught… and they died horrible deaths.
>> Eric also said…
>>
>> Sometimes it is good to put all the working theories on the table and
>> see where everyone is at….
>>
>> My theory Is; they were asked to move and go down below.
There is actually a continual body of evidence emerging that does support this.
We have left the ‘no direct communications with them’ bullshit from the original SAIR report far behind. There were ALL KINDS of ‘direct communications’ with both DIVSA Eric Marsh and ‘Granite Mountain’ during the time the SAIT would have us believe there was a ‘blackout’ and that no one was either talking to them OR knew where they were OR what they were doing.
>> Eric also said…
>>
>> I’m not convinced who asked
That still remains a mystery.
>> and I don’t think it was a direct order.
Despite the fact that these units like to consider themselves ‘more than quasi-military’… the ‘working communications’ is all very ‘nicey-nice’ and the truth is that no one ever really DOES give anyone a direct order. ( At least not over the public TAC radio channels, anyway ). It all comes out as very polite ‘queries’ like “It would be nice if…” or “Can I get XXXX” or “What is your comfort level about XXXXX”, yada, yada.
The only place we hear the direct phrase “COME DOWN” that was (seemingly) aimed directly at DIVSA Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain is still in that YARNELL-GAMBLE video which was shot at exactly 4:27:16 PM that day. The radio conversation captured in that video still APPEARS to be someone in fire command calling DIVSA Marsh directly and was wondering where they were and what was taking them so long to ‘get to town’. The speaker at the start of the YARNELL-GAMBLE video appears to be talking directly to Marsh and he is finishing their conversation at that time with (quote) “Copy… uh… COME DOWN and appreciate it if you could come a little faster but it’s yours to figure it out”. This is when Eric Marsh then appears to answer that speaker with (quote) “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.
Even if that FIRST speaker in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video was NOT actually directing his “COME DOWN… and appreciate it if you could come a little faster” comment right to Eric Marsh… there is still no question that Marsh’s “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire” was him REPORTING to ( someone? ) about why it was taking Granite Mountain so long to get where someone else seemed to already be EXPECTING them to be… and wanted to know what was taking so long.
The FIRST speaker in that YARNELL-GAMBLE ( the one who *seems* to be talking directly to Marsh and telling him to COME DOWN and HURRY UP ) has still not been positively identified… but there is a finite (short) list of people it could have been.
It MUST have been someone in a position of authority over Marsh and someone who Eric Marsh felt the need to ‘report’ to when asked to do so.. That’s a short list of people.
It is generally accepted ( through voice matching ) that it was NOT OPS2 Paul Musser’s voice… nor was it TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel or SPGS2 Darrell Willis… but it is a VERY close voice match for either SPGS1 Gary Cordes or OPS1 Todd Abel.
>> Eric also said…
>>
>> I do think the pressure of the “show” going to shit and GM wanting
>> to look solid on a local fire for their crew reputation and ultimately
>> their future, weighted on there decision to bump out of the black.
At the moment Brendan McDonough had to be ‘rescued’ that day by another Hotshot crew Superintendent… and that same ‘other’ Superintendent had to offer to save GM’s vehicles from getting burned to a crisp ( About a million dollars worth of equipment )… Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were basically left with TWO choices….
1) Sit out the upcoming firestorm ( which they could see beginning to happen better than anyone else on the ground that day ) in the ‘safe black’… and then walk back to town ( safely )… but then suffer the resulting ‘campfire stories’ about how another FEDERAL Hotshot SUP basically had to totally ‘save their cookies’ that day ( Both lookout and ALL vehicles ).
OR
2) Try to come running into Glen Ilah like the cavalry and maybe save some lives and maybe even get their names in the newspapers like they had just two weeks before on the Doce fire in their own backyard. That would certainly mitigate and/or negate the possible ‘campfire stories’ related to ‘door number 1’ above.
I am sure the 17 other men who had no part in the decision making that day might have been fine with ‘door number 1’ so long as they got out of there safely… but it is still unknown if ‘door number 2’ was the only acceptable option for either Eric Marsh and/or Jesse Steed.
Sorry if that’s blunt… but you asked us to try to ‘keep it short’.
>> Eric also said…
>> I’ve always thought the truth lied in the cell phone conversations…My 2 cents…
It might. We KNOW now that at least ONE of Eric Marsh’s ( reported ) TWO cellphones that he ( apparently ) always had with him actually survived the fire.
Amanda Marsh has said ( in a public interview ) that she has at least one of them.
How it got into Amanda Marsh’s possession without ( apparently ) ever being examined by investigators ( even the YCSO police ) is still a mystery.
Eric Marsh was being paid a ‘stipend’ for one of his cellphones by his employer ( The City of Prescott ). If that is the one that is now in Amanda Marsh’s possession then it is still NOT necessary to obtain her permission for the ‘cellphone records’ for that phone. The City of Prescott would have to still obtain and provide those in response to any simple Arizona Open Records request.
As far as we know… NO ONE has ever bothered to try and obtain Eric Marsh’s cellphone records… even before it was known that one of his cellphones DID survive the fire and is now definitely in the possession of his widow.
Also… the leading theory about where Eric Marsh actually WAS just prior to him appearing on the radio during the MAYDAY sequence at 1639 now puts him out AHEAD of the advancing line of 17 Hotshots led by Captain ( Acting SUP ) Jesse Steed.
It was once believed that the reason Marsh did NOT seem to be with the men when Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY hit the Air-To-Ground channel at 1639 is because he had been ‘lagging behind’ them and was still ‘catching up’ to them.
That is ( I believe ) no longer the leading theory.
It is much more likely now that Eric Marsh set out AHEAD of the men and was the one who left the pink flagging/tape at the descent point to indicate to the approaching Jesse Steed and crew that he wanted them to ‘bushwhack’ through the canyon.
No matter where Marsh really was at 1639… he could NOT have been more than a 1 minute and 58 second ‘hard’ run away from them when Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY hit the radio… because at 1641 he jumps into the MAYDAY conversation ( out of breath ) and says “I am here NOW with Granite Mountain… our escape route has been cut off… we are burning out around ourselves in the brush… etc. etc.”
This makes either one of Eric Marsh’s TWO cell/smartphones ever more important.
If there is ANY chance that Marsh was a ‘picture bug’ and had been taking ANY pictures that day with his cell/smartphones… and there is ANY chance any of those pictures also survived the fire… they *might* tell us exactly where Marsh WAS at certain times that day.
Yes, It is difficult to take all the info we know about Yarnell Hill and compress it into a few sentences. My working theory here is that by having to simplify all we know, our subconscious mind might actually “connect the dots” in a way our conscious minds cannot because of how bogged down with info it is..I guess it would be like an epiphany for lack of a better term.
Perhaps… but I tend to think the only REAL ‘Epiphany’ that needs to happen here is that now that we know, for sure and certain, that the US Forestry Service and Arizona Forestry have ALWAYS been withholding crucial evidence they have always had ( and still have ) in their possession from both the public AND the people chared ( by LAW ) with investigating the inicident…
…is how much MORE has yet to be seen / heard / known.
THAT is the Epiphany that needs to ‘comes next’… I think.
Our recent discovery, about a week ago, via Aaron Hulburd’s video, that Gary Cordes had “a plan” has really influenced my thinking about this. And this has been really disturbing to me. And the even more recent conversation that Paul Musser may have been in on the creation of that plan has been something I have been, in some seriously sober silence, contemplating for the past few days.
Really, until this week’s discovery of this, and my own massive amount of work related to it (regarding the dozer(s) and Ball, and the risk this “plan” put people into, I was still quite mystified about that decision, to be perfectly honest.
So I think we’re in a bit of a crossroads right now–at least I know I am.
I have respected those who have noted that the possibility that the crew may have had something of a history of bad decisions with positive outcomes may have contributed to this catastrophe.
Ken Jordan’s reflections about this in the video I posted way below seem to substantiate this. Although they don’t point JUST to Granite Mountain. They’re a challenge to tendencies on the part of ALL Hotshot Crews in general. And his tone is a warning to ALL Hotshot Crews, not a condemnation of Granite Mountain in isolation from a general CULTURE critique.
I have always thought Eric/Granite Mountain under-estimated the speed and power of the turning of the fire, as did EVERYBODY ELSE (except possibly Bravo 3 at around noon). I think they made a fatal decision to “scramble” down through that bowl, without a lookout, thinking they could they could outrace the fire.
But they weren’t the only ones who under-estimated that fire at that point. The entire MANAGEMENT of that fire under-estimated it all along. That’s been something i’ve harped on over and over again.
I’ve never been happy with any of our ideas about WHY they went down there. I just didn’t think they did it for some abstract unfocused “glory.” Yes, they were under pressure from (F*** You) the City of Prescott. But they were in a pretty good position at that time, after Doce and Thompson Ridge, which were MAJOR wins for them.
But this week has really influenced my thinking. Discovering that Gary Cordes (and possibly Paul Musser) plan is, I think, a game changer.
And we’re still trying to figure it out.
Can you believe it? Here we are 18 months after they died, still trying to figure this most basic question out?
And just tripping over sentences embedded in a video the USFS has HAD ALL ALONG but just, a month ago, released to the public?
And we have no reason to believe they don’t have other videos/evidence they are still SITTING ON.
I wish I could give you a simple answer to your question. The reason I can’t is because, all things considered, we the public are STILL being denied access to whatever may be still out there that could answer your question.
Sorry, but there’s honestly no real way I can answer your question in three sentences. Things are still too complicated for that, in all honesty.
And, thanks for asking. It’s still a TOTALLY RELEVANT question.
And considering this:
“I don’t have much of an attention span to begin with and it completely shuts off when the ” back and forth stuff” and insults starts.”
I completely agree.
I agree as well.
And, I STRONGLY believe that much of the back and forth stuff is created specifically to either divert or dilute a particular discussion, or else to turn people off from following the over-all discussion.
YES.
Yep.
That’s why, after doing MY FAIR SHARE of playing into The Game, I put a bit in my mouth to grab onto every time I am tempted to wittily play into it again.
It’s a diversion.
And, seriously, I’m sitting here right now wondering, after all of this.
If the simple truth was just that Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots just simply made a huge fatal boo-boo, all by themselves…
without anybody else implicated in that huge fatal boo-boo…
Why in the world would the Arizona Department of Forestry and the United States Forest Service…
still…
be bending themselves around into obvious pretzels…
to make sure…
a whole lot of stuff that was collected by them…
is still…
invisible?
Someone wrote on WildlandFire.com’s “They Said” 7/31/2013:
“7/31 Some Foresters in trouble
Ab,
Keep in mind the 10, 18 and other printed “Rules” are there to protect the employer first. If it is determined that one or more of those were violated then the employer is usually regarded as being free from any “Wrongful death” claims or future lawsuits. I served on 6 Fire Death investigation Panels. I never saw any of those reports leave us for higher authority review without citing violations of 1 or more of those “Firefighter Safety” that didn’t include something. While it is human to err, it isn’t acceptable when it gets down to a situation like this to an unfeeling higher authority. I’ll bet many are really worried but it is probably wasted energy.
Normbc9”
http://www.wildlandfire.com/arc/2013g_jul.php
Scroll down just a little bit.
Marti, youI are the best dissecting these photos and times.
I think Bob Powers and others might agree with the premise that Marsh and Steed, those other 17 shoulder the responsibllity of going down in that box. Let me say, that if JOY would have had her druthers, we would have perished by dropping off as they did.
Now in our situation, neither of us were in command and in fact we could split our paths and did for about forty minutes. Fortunately for Joy and Sonny, I had the forsight to return and argue her back up the mountain to practically drag her back the way I knew would save our lives if things turned sour. I would have never lived over it if I hadn’t.
The point is, those fellows were under a command. If you read their creed, that is written upon a sign at the memorial right across from the fire department administraiton building on Highway 89, Yarnell, you will see what is required of you should you be a GMHS. It states that you must strictly take orders on a day to day basis. Now I don’t know who wrote those–likely Willis or perhaps one of his bosses, but I suppose it was written right after the fire.
It does tell me a lot though. First there is little room for independent thinking if you want to keep your job. Second that would be why those men took strict orders to drop off in that canyon, and whoever gives strict orders in the chain of command also takes seriously (more so than those of lower status) the strict orders given from higher ranks, and it explains why some did not run to the safety of those boulders instead of huddling into a group in a no-win situation.
I am told that there was an arguement between Steed and Marsh about the problem of dropping off into the brush. It sounds like someone was trying to defy orders from headquarters– Semper Fi?
It does seem to me that out of 17 Indians, one would have declined that drop, but consider a command where such strict obedience to command was not required. Miners and muckers are known to be indipendent souls and if you give one an order you better know your business or he will tell you F off.
At the Ward mine south of Ely, NV, I did have a similar incident happen. Seven of us miners came out on the motor (train in civilian talk) and we noticed 12″x12″ stulls (timbers holding up the back (top of drift or tunnel) that were mushrooming on tops. Now once we got out six of those men agreed with the boss that more timbers and they could go back in. In as much as those timbers were already in close proximity, this old tramp miner ordered my check.
Needless to say those boys went back in–families to feed, etc.. Their disregard for the situation was OK for a time but within a couple weeks they were caught back in there. Fortunately they were not reght under the cave at those timbers, but by God’s grace if there is, they were able to find a tiny air shaft that fortunately had not caved and I was told managed to crawl on hands and knees for about a quarter mile to safety.
Now if you see the majority of miners follow like sheep then how much more under “strictly must take orders” mind set would these men risk their lives?
Thanks for some of the answers to the legal issues here.
We thought we were sitting across from Jim Karels, fire investigator. When i asked him he said no. Well it must have been his twin, Joy sent a photo to JD and you.
Toodle doo, may your trails be happy–
Sonny —-There is in fact a written direction that you can refuse an assignment if you feel it violates Safety for your self and your crew
with out Recourse Fire Nation Wide adopted that along time ago.
So no you are not the Military and No you do not have to follow like sheep
Todays Fire Fighters will tell you that______________
—Yes, Bob Powers. 100% correct and I inquired Sonny’s long time thought with Lewis Prison Crew Andrew Williams and it is fact you can refuse an assignment.
Yet I think again Sonny always felt what young kid trying to make it in the field is going to refuse it when they are trailing in the most dense terrain and he would have to trail back up in that God awful steep grade maze-like terrain to WHAT the other side we took? Shit, let me say the Congress side is tall boulders we slid down 6-14ft. boulders to bear wallow on tight terrain so it was not easier but due to less dense terrain we took it. I am sure Sonny will share a little different direct to you. We never saw the fire the same. He always felt a direct order happen and I tend to think as maybe some missing link happened and its unknown fact and also that Marsh was comfortable in the black and after all we hiked who knew Marsh we along with my original gut feeling feel without all the facts we cannot orchestrate the flaws that are obvious from the outside looking in and just roll it up that 19 men died due to 2 men’s poor decisions. There is an obvious missing element that could clear this all up.
Bob-generally I think people would be trained so they were not to act like sheep–at least I know you or I would not train people that way. I don’t know how this particular GMHC were trained. Going by the sign–maybe Joy can photo the sign–I would say that to be a GMHC member you better follow the leader regardless or from the looks of it your job would be in jeopardy.
As Willis pointed out, not one was out of formation and they all covered up together–no one fellow would break and run up to the boulders. Now that I know how flimsy those fire blankets are you can count on old Sonny ( if I were foolish enough to drop down as they did or had a reason to take a risk such as saving someone in that so called bomb proof abode), old sonny would have headed fast toward the Boulders. You could get there a hell of a lot quicker than cutting out that thick manzanita and you had an area greater than the “bomb proof area” to which you could center yourself in. It looks like they needed training in more than just how the wind blows during thunderstorms, but also in how damn hot that manzanita can get on a hot and dry June day. I am certain a few of those fellows had qualms about the move they made–to me someone up the chain of command was urging them down there. I just don’t see Marsh that much of a risk taker–though city boys, if he is one, might not calculate the outdoors well enough if they have not lived it.
Joy is an avid outdoor hiker and was before we met. Yet she for all her blessed experience outdoors, even previously letting off rattlesnakes in the area she was setting, would have joined their downhill excursion and that despite all hell breaking loose on the front and only a quarter mile over the hill with thunder clouds and lightening brewing in the not too far distance. To me it was a no brainer, yet there I am learning that these fellows all marched off that mountain into an obvious brush trap (look at Joy’s photos taken at that very spot they died early June 30, morning) to become dead heroes.
In my head I try to contemplate how that could have occurred. Did any of the big bosses here say stay the hell out of that danger zone. No, all I hear is they were needed down around Yarnell and Marshes last call as we are ok in the black send Blueridge. Then we hear of arguments and donut doesn’t come forward with all—now we wonder can we trust anything at all? Then we hear Willis saying that is what they do–protect structures—so we say now they became heroes because they died trying to get down there to protect structures. I even wondered if there were monkeys in the Helm’s ranch thing which is not a ranch as I know one, and those monkeys needed protecting. Helms are quiet and that is their right but so it is the right of those loved ones to know the freaking truth. Sounds like when I heard the Willis talks and read the Sair Report and you fellows dissected it well enough, you knew that plenty information was either withheld or neglected during the investigation. The only thing I could think was that someone was trying to protect someone for a myriad of reasons we might fathom. Seems plenty people know but are having to live with poker faces.
Well keep at it, the news is going to come true eventually–we got too many–and when you have guys like Dr. Ted Putnam, Wayne Niel, as well as non-firefighters scratching their heads after looking down at that basin and comparing it to what was in sight on the north then you want to know what really made those men to opt for going toward Helms rather than chance death.
Reply to Bob Powers post December 8, 2014 at 10:50 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> There is in fact a written direction that you can
>> refuse an assignment if you feel it violates Safety
>> for your self and your crew
As far as ‘turning down the assignment’ goes… we still have NO idea if any of those men were ever given the CHANCE to do that.
Heck… other than Wade Parker texting his mother something about ‘going down to protect a ranch’… we have NO IDEA if any of those men knew what the ‘assignment’ even WAS that was taking them out of that safe spot and on to ( something else? ).
On top of that… if the latest ‘leading’ theory about Marsh scouting out AHEAD of Jesse and the crew is true ( and it was Marsh who tied that pink ribbon at the ‘Descent Point’ to indicate where HE wanted them to start cutting through the box canyon )… we don’t know if Jesse Steed even STOPPED at that point.
Steed might still have been leading the men and then just simply put his ‘left blinker on’ when he saw Marsh’s tape and dutifully started leading that long line of men down into the canyon.
Where, in that scenario, would the men even have been give an opportunity to ‘object’ in any official manner?
It would have required them to fall out of line, stand up on the two track, and YELL down to Jesse Steed…
“Hey JESSE… wait a minute… What the fuck? What are we doing?”
“I think I officially object to this and I ain’t going down there”.
A very awkward moment ( to say the least ) for anyone who would have tried to do that.
That being said… I do still think Jesse DID ‘stop’ for a moment when he came to that pink tape and saw what Marsh wanted him to then do… and that Jesse had his OWN WTF moment.
Maybe that’s when the (alleged) ‘argument’ took place.
If there really was this ‘stop dead’ moment at the descent point and the entire line of men halted ( and maybe even ‘gathered up’ again into a close group )… perhaps THAT would have been the point for any of them to now ‘refuse this assignment’… but we simply do NOT know if that’s the way it went down and whether there ever really was this ‘transition’ moment when any of the men could have officially complained.
Yes and no, Bob. I’ve been lucky enough to work on a crew with a safety ethic like the one you describe. I’ve had excellent FMOs and supervisors. Occasionally, a safety or ethical objection has earned a little temporary grumbling from my superiors, but I’ve never felt my job at risk. On other crews, however, I suspect that those who can’t keep their brains off and their mouths shut either don’t last long, or find less militaristic crews to work for. I’ve seen a few “middle managers” who’ve had some years in wildland fire and expect unthinking obedience — they don’t just appear out of nowhere. I’ve been hoping that by studying GMIHC, we might be able convince other authority hardliners that this attitude is dangerous.
Sitta—
And in some cases you are correct especially Organized HS Crews the decent should come from those with experience if the crew has been trained to bring Safety to the Leaders.
You are right most crewmen won’t speak up but Squad bosses and Crew Foreman At times do. Most turn downs come from good crew leaders to Division Supervisors or ST Leaders.
In this case the would be questioning there Superintendent which probably held them back, It happens if open discussion isn’t fostered.
Thanks for joining us this morning, Sitta!!
And, yes, even I have trouble posting sometimes. I actually have to “re-log-in” about every three hours even when I’m actively posting. This wordpress software seems to have a really short memory span since JD “upgraded” it. It didn’t use to be so cantankerous.
After eating and breathing this fire for this entire year, I REALLY believe the real Lessons Learned from it are almost ALL about management, authority, IMT-ordering, short-staffing, command accountability, overall culture, EVERYTHING to do with the upper-ups.
And, relatively speaking, about 10% about the same-old same-old mistakes that the ground-pounders make.
Which is why you are right, imho, about how the reason AZF/USFS is STILL sitting on that infamous video we keep hearing about (that may have that Marsh/Steed “argument” in it) may have a LOT more to do with Overhead “assigning”/”ordering” the crew to carry out “their” plan, than it has to do with Marsh and Steed arguing about it.
This whole “plan” thing has been carefully SCRUBBED, up until now.
The Lessons Learned that I hear SCREAMING from this fire, can’t even remotely begin to get out there until this whole MANAGEMENT thing is allowed to get out there.
And that information is NOT going to get out there, until somebody with AUTHORITY can get ahead of this thing and FORCE it.
Amen, Marti. I’m so glad that you and WTKTT, Bob, Joy, Sonny, RTS, are still working on this. Honestly, I’m grateful. I think a lot of ground pounders don’t really want to talk about this until something new and definite comes out, because it feels like everything about Yarnell is uncertain, uncontrollable, and still very painful. Why talk if you can’t change anything, and you run the risk of offending someone connected to GMIHC? So we operate under the mythos of Freak Accident that Can’t Happen to Me.
This forum is what keeps my hope alive.
Sitta said:
“I think a lot of ground pounders don’t really want to talk about this until something new and definite comes out, because it feels like everything about Yarnell is uncertain, uncontrollable, and still very painful. Why talk if you can’t change anything,”
Right. Because the investigations delivered such inaccurate information, THAT’S what the majority of firefighters believe! And there has been so many more facts to come out after both reports, as we all know here. FF’s have to make a concerted effort to look into any new YHF facts. Most FF’s I talk to about YHF know snippets, fact or not. Look at the SAI briefing video…the SAIT is still pushing that as fact. Or the NWCG building a Lessons Learned from the SAI briefing video?! That’s offensive. And like you said, it’s perhaps easier to not talk about YHF for FF’s because of all that uncertainty AND because we can’t change the outcome.
Definitely at least a twin. Different glasses from a year ago. Also less of a tan. But same face, same hair, same chin, same lips.
Interesting.
same ears and same VOICE
reply to Marti —same ears and same VOICE
And I really think the VOICE is critical here.
If the VOICE you heard sounds like the VOICE in JD’s videos (and it has a distinct sound/southern drawl)
I can’t think of any reason it wouldn’t be him, generally speaking, for the most part, all things considered.
But we/I could always be wrong!
And if this is the case, it is really weird.
Why would Jim Karels. the leader of the SAIT, be in the Yarnell area now???
I have no clue.
Oh, wait…………………………
And I’m still asking the question I asked above.
If Eric/Granite Mountain were solely “responsible,” via their OBVIOUS (which it is) breaking of 10/18/LCES, why are the USFS and ADF still bending themselves into pretzals to withhold stuff?
As the guy I quoted from WildlandFire.gcom said, all they have to do is prove Eric/GM violated 10/18/LCES (which they have years of experience proving, they’re off the hook for “wrongful death.”
Nobody has responded to that.
Marti
My take is any body remotely associated with the contact or overhead supervision of Marsh and GM who are Federal employees are being protected from tort clams by Fed Lawyers. It dose go deeper than the Crew If the State wants to throw the responsibility back on the Federal Employees that were there. It is what it is PARINOIA ???????
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 8, 2014 at 4:46 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> If Eric/Granite Mountain were solely “responsible,”
>> via their OBVIOUS (which it is) breaking of 10/18/LCES,
>> why are the USFS and ADF still bending themselves
>> into pretzals to withhold stuff?
Because of the MONEY involved. ( Millions of dollars ).
In the ‘Motion to dismiss the wrongful death lawsuits’ filed by attorneys from the Arizona State Attorney General’s office… they reveal that even THEY were NOT going to be able to escape the reality that DIVSA Eric Marsha and (acting) GMHS SUP Jesse Steed were ’employees of the State of Arizona’ at the time the fatal decisions were all made.
So Arizona Forestry IS ( and always HAS been ) ‘on the hook’ for their decisions and their behavior on June 30, 2013.
That’s the obvious reason AZF doesn’t want to just admit their ’employees’ were guilty of either criminal or gross ‘negligence’. Millions of dollars at stake.
As for the FEDS… it’s probably just the ‘good old boy’ network at play. Yes… the FEDS could just throw ‘Arizona Forestry’ under the bus and call it a day… but that’s not what ‘good old boys’ do.
Besides… there WERE ‘Federal Employees’ working that fire and they COULD be held culpable in the ‘negligence’ taking place that entire weekend… so from US Forestry’s perspective it is probably better to just lay low, stay out of it, and let it all resolve down there at the Arizona State level.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> As the guy I quoted from WildlandFire.gcom said,
>> all they have to do is prove Eric/GM violated
>> 10/18/LCES (which they have years of experience
>> proving, they’re off the hook for “wrongful death.”
That is NOT the case. It’s not that simple, legally speaking.
Copy. Gotcha. Thanks!
Still cogitating……..
So……
It’s looking like a combination of…..
Eric/Granite Mountain deciding to move themselves into a plan communicated to them by, at least, Gary Cordes, who, himself didn’t have that much AUTHORITY over them.
A plan that Gary Cordes MAY have conjured up with OPS Paul Musser (who had a bit more ICStructure authority over them–except they could, yes, still turn it down).
A plan that, as Bob Powers has said, hadn’t a PRAYER of succeeding, and was conjured up by them, when neither of them had much of any clue what was happening with the fire on that southwest side of it, either when they were conjuring it up, or as time passed and Gary was trying to implement it.
What is the potential liability in doing something like that???
And, as Calvin has said, he believes Todd Abel and Darrell Willis may have been aware of/involved in.
A plan that seemingly may have mostly been communicated via cellphones, the records of which have been NOT released to the public.
So…Eric/Granite Mountain headed off, apparently, to engage that plan, with DivAS Eric possibly ahead of them.
I don’t think they were particularly DESPERATE to redeem themselves in the eyes of anybody. I really think they had already done a pretty good job of that by then via Doce and Thompson Ridge.
But, yes, I agree with what you wrote way above about HABIT. And taking what Ken Jordan said about his sense that the “cool factor” could have played a part.
So, off they went to re-engage the fire via a PLAN that a non-certified Structure Protection Group Supervisor plus maybe their Operations Supervisor had conjured up.
Trusting, I would think, that that PLAN (since it was, apparently co-conjured up by their Operations Supervisor) was basically trustworthy.
And down into the explosively fueled bowl they descended, thinking they could get to the BS Ranch before the fire got there.
Without a lookout–unless Eric was, in fact, pretty far ahead of them and, thus capable of serving as their lookout.
And the fire turned around, as Eric may have even been watching it, and burned back up the bowl and Eric followed it back up to them–or down if he was on a rock above them. (This part still doesn’t actually make any sense to me, to be honest, but whatever).
And, all along, Gary Cordes is thinking they had time to get to the Ranch and is asking his Task Force Trainee at the Youth Camp to send an engine there to pick them up even while everything is going to sh*t everywhere.
And, yes, thank you for reminding me that Eric and Jesse were, on that fire, employees of AZ Fire, and Eric was, even more, a member of the Incident Management Team by way of having accepted the role of Division Supervisor.
So there’s that in the butt-covering realm.
So that would mean the “easy way out” of just blaming them for violating the Rules wouldn’t so easily work here.
But I’m still not convinced AZFire wouldn’t attempt to do that, at this convoluted point, in some way, if they thought that would serve their HUMOUNGOUS financial interests in throwing off a bunch of “wrongful death” lawsuits.
Which would mean to me that they would have a fairly big interest in making public whatever they have of that video that “seems” to include an “argument” between Eric and Jesse.
Or maybe not?
This is really a crunch point, in my mind.
The easiest way, in my mind, for AZ Fire to absolve themselves from a bunch of wrongful death lawsuits would be to……
…….throw, “agonizingly”, one of their Division Supervisors under the bus, at this point.
Before they release even one molecule of evidence that there was a PLAN. conjured up by one of their Structure Protection Group Supervisors and maybe even one of their Operation Supervisors, that was placed in front of Eric/Granite Mountain, that was totally doomed to not only FAIL, but endanger the lives of not only that Hotshot Crew, but also a lowly Dozer Operator that we still don’t know what happened to him.
And I think that the possibility that Joy/Sonny may, likely, have recently photographed Jim Karels in their neighborhood is interesting, related to all of this.
Apparently, the SAIT hasn’t quite finished its job.
Where the F**k does the responsibility of OVERHEAD, all those Professional Incident Management Team (those supposedly highly experienced Wildfire Managers) people come under some kind of scrutiny????
Or do they not EVEN, (if IHC crews are TOTALLY responsible for their well-being–which I generally agree with, practically speaking) have ANY kind of accountability as to the PLANS they make and “ask” crews to participate in?
On this fire, apparently, only Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshot were responsible for ANYTHING, in regards to their demise.
That’s the sense I’m getting from what we’re discussing here.
I’m, to be honest, right now contemplating the possibility that that Formal “you have the right/responsibility to turn down operations” “policy” (which may be easier in theory than in reality, all things considered) may be, all things considered, just another way for the upper-ups to avoid any kind of responsibility/liability for what THEY do on a wildfire, like this one.
Yes, the effect of the policy may be to somewhat insulate the overhead from liability (maybe not as much as you might think). And certainly you hear the policy cited by WFFs here and elsewhere when they talk of GM’s role in what happened that day.
But what hotshot superintendent would not think that policy is a good idea? What hotshot boss would want to leave decisions about their safety in the hands of overhead they might not trust and who are, at any rate, not actually present with the crew and may not know their situation. With great authority comes great responsibility. HS supers have both.
Right.
It’s a great progressive “Just Culture” policy.
Unless it can be used against you.
Marti wrote:
>>Which would mean to me that they would have a fairly >>big interest in making public whatever they have of that >>video that “seems” to include an “argument” between Eric >>and Jesse.
>>Or maybe not?
>>This is really a crunch point, in my mind.
Hmmm… pure speculation, but if any ‘argument’ between Marsh and Jesse included mention of orders or plans from someone above them, plans that involved leaving their safety zone, AZF (and USFS, and CoP, etc.), might *not* want that released.
I think this is………….
BINGO
Thank you!
We are at the statement they moved to re-engage?
1. They went to build line at Glen Isla?
We have a large problem here as I have stated below.
The amount of time necessary to construct that line with a cat and crew
6 to 8 hours based on chains per hour for a 30 foot wide line at 1600 that was out of the question.
2. Nether Cordes or Mouser had any Idea what a plan like that would take to complete, plus nether had scouted the location or checked the Fire activity in that area to determine if the plan was feasible by the time Ball went to scout the location at 1630 the fire was almost into Glean Isla.
3. Marsh And Steed–Were responsible for the Crew Safety. Moving the crew to reengage still needed to be done in a safe manner.
The only discussion by the crew was that they were moving to a Safety Zone.
Even the statements on the Videos indicate the Crew was moving to a Safety zone not to build line.
The Fire moved to fast for them to even reach the BSR SZ much less reengage to build line.
4. From the start of the move to deployment less than 50 minuets.
Why—1600 burn period/Fuels/temp/humidity/ mile and a half fire front/
and number ONE a storm front that was predicted with erratic winds
A simple but complete scenario for disaster all known and predictable.
5. A IC not even paying attention to his Job. A OPS not pulling people out with the predictions and getting them into SZ’s Or seriously discussing a frontal attack with Hand Crews in 10 foot brush at that time of day.
And GM decides to move into unburned fuel with a Fire Front not 3/4 of a mile from them with the activity increasing and the Front and wind pre diction.
6. The only one that ordered the Crew to move out of the safe Black was Marsh he was the only one with the final authority.
The only information we here is the were moving to there Safety Zone
Nothing about re-engage or to build line in Glen Isla.
For what ever reason the FATEL decision was to move at all.
and to move without LCES. So Marsh and Steed Failed to do what they should have done and failed to provide safety to accomplish the move.
It is just that simple— Past bad decisions with Good Outcomes—Simply ignored the rules as not needing to be followed THERE OLD HILLBILLY RULES NOT FOR MODERAN DAY FF’s
Here is my guess – they weren’t going to build line they were going to fire the dozer line as a last ditch effort to save the community.
I know others will disagree but this is basically the “hail mary pass” -not enough resources, everything going to shit, and a shot crew can help with this no win scenario
Yes probably so— and they had a cat and the BR Hot Shots so why bring in GM who would take longer to get there?
They flat ran out of time to make that attempt with any one.
The fire ran across the dozer line as it was only 1 blade wide
by roughly 1615 not a good plan at 1630.
Yep, one blade wide was notgoing to hold it. BR was assigned else ware (I think), although I am not sure BR was ever really “assigned” to anything
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Yes probably so— and they had a cat and
>> the BR Hot Shots so why bring in GM who
>> would take longer to get there?
The explanation for that all comes down to TIMING.
If, when SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( and/or OPS2 Paul Musser ) realized they needed to do SOMETHING to try and ‘skirt’ the fire around Glen Ilah… they did NOT know that Blue Ridge had already gone into ‘evacuation mode’ and they were actually abandoning that ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer line improvement project ( which was designed to try and keep fire out of Yarnell )…
Then it would have made perfect sense ( to Cordes ) that he needed that OTHER Hotshot crew to ‘come down’ ( with their 4 chainsaws and drip torches ) to help ‘finish’ the other emergency dozer push in front of Glen Ilah.
We CANNOT make the following Unit Log entry from Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball just ‘go away’…
——————————————————–
Structure group one assigns me and ONE OTHER to
locate possibility of DOZER LINE to southwest of Yarnell.
——————————————————–
It appears in his official (signed) Unit Log shortly after he made a ‘1600’ time notation… but it’s a few lines down from that and so there’s no telling what TIME Cory Ball is really saying he got this ‘assignment’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
Let’s say it was 1604 when Cordes gave Ball that ‘new assignment’.
At 1604… Gary Cordes still did NOT know that Blue Ridge was already in ‘evacuation mode’ out there on that other dozer line connecting to the Youth Camp.
According to the Arizona Forestry SAIT report… 1604 is the EXACT moment those men ‘gaggled up’ and started heading SOUTH out of the ‘safe black’ up there by the anchor point.
Curious timing.
Cordes could have called Marsh either just BEFORE or just AFTER he gave that ‘new assignment’ to Cory Ball and the dozer… and told Marsh all about this ‘new plan’.
Copy
Curious indeed.
Don’t forget this indication of a plan from Cordes’ ADOSH interview:
1356 Q2: Okay. Uh, did you um, I wanted to go back to 1545, Ops Messer and you
1357 discussed options. Uh, what were the options?
1358
1359 A: Basically we just discussed where we thought this was going and how, how
1360 we needed to play it and I told him I didn’t have the resources, we were gonna
1361 need to start you know, pulsing some resources over to us to support this.
1362 Um, also I was gonna need some, obviously need some uh, air support to start,
1363 start working that. Uh, we knew once it hit that ridge line that we’re gonna be
1364 in trouble, ‘cause there was a lot of homes that were speckled all around in
1365 that, in that area. So it was basically, you know, uh, assist with the evacuation
1366 uh, try to get this thing painted up a little bit with some air, air support and uh,
1367 start pulsing us some, some resources down.
Exactly.
That’s what we started from.
It is still absolutely ASTOUNDING that when SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview reached this point and all this ‘vague’ crap started to flow out of Cordes’ mouth… that not one of the investigators stopped him and said… “Whoa there, sparky… slow down. Exactly WHAT are you talking about here. Back up the train and let’s hear some specifics.”
Agree WTKTT, every single time I re-read one of these interviews (listening to them is too painful but contextually revealing) I wonder WTF? Seriously, trained interview professional or not, retired and experienced WFF (I wonder if ADOSH ever considered using young, current firefighters for interviews instead of retired, dated firefighters??), etc etc…what were they thinking???
FIRE20+, you wrote:
“Agree WTKTT, every single time I re-read one of these interviews (listening to them is too painful but contextually revealing)”
So true.
The other “place” in the interviews that I found almost too painful to listen to/read is in the interview with Shumate regarding the ordering of the Type 2 Short Team.
It’s just agonizing, especially after reading the report, which put such a HUGE emphasis on that as a major factor in setting the Chaos Stage for Sunday.
That must have been a “Hindsight Judgement Call” or something, because in the interview they kinda sorta circled around this decision without ever actually asking ANYTHING about it.
And none of their interviews with the higher ups in Phoenix, who actually MADE that call that Shumate just went along with, even remotely approach getting at WHY they made that decision. They don’t talk about it at all.
It’s just SITTING THERE.
I think GM moved because there was a plan to build line, with others resources, including a dozer, to help protect Glen Isla. I personally think Todd abel knew they were moving along with others, including Cordes and probably Willis. As well as several BRH. And I agree, most of this planning effort took place over cell phones.
We CANNOT make the following Unit Log entry from Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball just ‘go away’…
This ‘theory’ has ALWAYS been possible… and looks more and more plausible with every new little ‘tidbit’ of evidence that emerges.
Bottom line is we CANNOT make the following official Unit Log entry from Blue Ridge Hotshot ( and acting HEQB for the dozer ) Cory Ball just ‘go away’…
————————————————
Structure group one assigns me and ONE OTHER to
locate possibility of DOZER LINE to southwest of Yarnell.
——————————————————–——–
It appears in his official (signed) Unit Log shortly after he made a ‘1600’ time notation. It’s a few lines down from his ‘1600’ notation so let’s assume TWO things…
1) Cory Ball’s 1600 time notation is CORRECT in his log.
2) This line entry just below that refers to something that happened right
in that 1600 timeframe or just a minute or two after that.
So let’s call it 1602 when Ball says he was given this ‘new assignment’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes to go ‘sout out’ a new emergency dozer line that would connect from the bottom of the Sesame area on over to the Boulder Springs Ranch cattle pond… and then ( perhaps ) right on over to connect with the rock outcrops of the ‘bomb-proof’ Safety Zone of the Boulder Springs Ranch itself.
The official Arizona Forestry SAIT report says they believe that the men ‘gaggled up’ and left the ‘safe black’ and headed south at exactly 1604 ( the moment Parker texted his photo to his mother ).
1602 – Ball says he was given this ‘new assignment’ from Gary Cordes.
1604 – SAIT says the men suddenly ‘gaggled up’ and headed for the BSR.
Curious timing there.
Just enough time in-between for a ‘cellphone’ call out to Eric Marsh telling him all about the ‘new plan’ that was already ‘in the works’ down there next to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and could really use 4 chainsaws and some drip torches to ‘finish the project’.
Wtk. It appears that Eric started scouting south around 1530, possibly. And I think it is possible that he was petty far south by the time MacKenzie shoots the video where we hear Steed updating him on the fires progression. I think that it is possible that the plan was actually developed around 1530. And I would also venture a guess that marsh was included in formulating the plan. By cell phone?
Also. At 1542 we hear Marsh announce that the fire has crossed the retardant line. At 1550 Eric panebaker notes that the next retardant drops will be on the south side of the fire. And then we hear abel tell marsh air support asap. How much retardant was delivered, between 1550 and 1637? How much was delivered on the south side of the fire? Wtf happened? What exactly does asap mean in the wff world? I come from a medical background where asap means as soon as possible. As in, life or death type situation s.
There was no afternoon retardant drop in that south area until the 4:33 drop that started the line they eventually put down from southwest (from that drop) to northeast all the way across the “top” of Yarnell.
The drops after the earlier west-east Bravo3-directed drop across the bowl (that eventually got burned over) were all in the Model Creek Road/Sickles Road area, since that was where the fire was burning towards, until it turned around and started burning south.
Calvin… make no mistake… I have ALWAYS thought this idea of last minute dozer line being directly related to why GM suddenly ‘gaggled up’ and left the safe black is totally possible… but where are you getting the idea that Marsh might have already been scouting SOUTH as early as 1530?
That was one of my questions in my mind to ask Calvin, also.
And, also, I’m sitting here cogitating about the idea that this “planning” could have been going on as early as 3:30.
That was well before Musser got over to meet in person with Cordes.
At 3:30-ish, Musser was “overseeing” the operation to protect the structures in the Sickles Road area, which were threatened when the fire turned from heading northeast to heading east.
At 3:30-ish I’m not sure where Cordes was actually at, or what he was actually doing. I don’t know when he left the Youth Camp area and drove over to 89 to get a bigger view of the fire.
I think it was while he was on 89 that “The Plan” started formulating in his mind. And we don’t know who all he was communicating with as that was happening.
Which kind of leads my conniving mind back to the “issues” possibly related to those 3:30-ish videos Aaron took of the Model Creek Road burnout.
Is it possible there was/were more video/videos he took than the ones we have? In my mind, yes.
Is it possible some of those videos contain some of this information (including maybe even the “argument” or stuff leading up to it? In my mind, yes.
Is it possible the AZF/USFS has been attempting mightily to keep this whole thing out of view? Yes.
Is it probable the AZF/USFS has been attempting mightily to keep this whole thing out of view? Yes.
Wtk. I am thinking that Frisby didn’t leave to go toe in with Eric until after Eric decided to go scout the trail to the south.. this comes per Frisby s account he gives to the prescotteers in the new video. I can’t remember the number off the top of my head
Thank you, calvin.
See the following ‘Reply’ to this I posted up above as a new parent comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-203651
So my question is, given all the “interpreting” and “ranting” I’ve done down below regarding authority and overhead responsibility:
If Ball (who was a member of a Federal Forest Service Hotshot crew–whose actual position in the chain-of-command at that time was more than a bit iffy in my humble opinion all things considered) considered what he heard from Cordes as an “assignment,” ie something he took seriously enough to go about the business of actually doing it (even though it turned out be a bigger PITA to accomplish than either he or Cordes anticipated), …….
Is there any reason why Eric/Granite Mountain wouldn’t have considered something similar coming from Gary Cordes, or EVEN YET Paul Musser, or the ‘team’ of them both, to be an “assignment”????
This was such a half-assed plan, given what even Gary Cordes said the fire was doing, I just scratch my head in dumbfoundedness.
If Cordes’ call to Ball was as late as minutes after 4 PM, which is possible, he already knew the dozer line they had spent all day putting in, was already burned over, at least up by the grader.
I don’t remember EXACTLY when that announcement that Eric made concerning that burning over was made (it’s in an Air Study video), but it was, iirc, around in that 3:50 PM framework. And Cordes, according to his ADOSH interview “heard” it (he just didn’t remember exactly HOW he heard it. And, apparently, that announcement was made to HIM.
And he had already ordered (or is that just “assigned” or what?) his resources (the Task Force) in the Youth Camp area to begin evacuating at 3:50. Which they didn’t seem to take seriously enough to actually do until it was almost too late. And, according to his interview:
“Q2: Okay. So your, your intention certainly was, or I – they, they understood that,
1346 that when you gave the uh, command to pull out, that Blue Ridge was
1347 supposed to go as well?
1348
1349 A: Right. And they had their trigger points. I think everybody was really relying
1350 on that um, that ridge line that’s running um, almost east and west in, in, in the
1351 upper corner of four and in the three. Anybody – if anybody saw any activity
1352 on that, um, they were to get out of there”
So, by 4:02-ish, he would have known Blue Ridge had abandoned their plan and was getting out.
So he “assigns”/”orders” Ball to go find some kind of vehicle/way to go back and tie in with Justin to start scouting a way to put in another dozer line towards Boulder Springs Ranch probably just slightly after he had “assigned”/”ordered” Granite Mountain to come down off the ridge so they can help with that plan???
Because, of course he couldn’t “assign”/”order” Blue Ridge to hustle over there because they were, getting in their trucks, headed to their safety zone (because the fire was coming down and hitting their trigger points FAST) at the Ranch House Restaurant (which was much closer to Glen Ilah than even Boulder Springs Ranch, or the top of the ridge where Granite Mountain was, ingress and egress-wise)?
Okay. I guess so.
I also, just now, found it interesting that Cordes says, in his interview, that he got to the RHR and checked to make sure all of “his” resources were accounted for.
I guess he wasn’t thinking that Justin and the dozer, which he had commandeered for/”assigned” to his plan, wasn’t one of his resources that he needed to “account for?”
Okay. I guess so.
I’m wondering what authority/responsibility does an “assignment”/”order” carry, and what is the accountability level of the person who “issues” an “assignment”/”order” in all of this “Incident Command Structure” stuff.
I’m asking this kind of in the same “mode” I asked about the “risk taking when saving a brother fire-fighter” thing.
Not theoretically (I already understand that) but REALLY.
I think they got asked. I think they felt pressured to be heroes because the city council kept threatening to remove further funding and they had to prove their worth, they were too fatigued to think straight, their leadership was stressed and frustrated, their culture valued cohesion above individual contributions, they were too influenced by structural firefighting culture, they didn’t value the basic rules of safety as a group, they’d been rewarded on prior close calls, they were young and invincible, they thought they could accomplish (something?) and that people needed them in town, and maybe some felt uncomfortably bored or guilty in their safety zone.
Sorry, it’s a long answer. I think the human factors are at the heart of this, and they are complicated.
Sitta. I am just wondering what you mean when you say gmihc had been rewarded on prior close calls?
And, as has been mentioned many, many times, by myself and others, they had already collectively received a black-eye that day due to the near-loss of both, their look-out, and their vehicles. When throwing that into the mix, the pressure to ease the impact of those poor decisions may have played a heavy influence.
Marti
Brought your question up here.
Do Fire Fighters ignore the 10 and 18 to save others?
My basic answer is no we train to not take risks that are not safe.
my second answer is we at times have to look at the calculated risk to accomplish a rescue mission.
There is that dam word again (Calculated)
So there is a point where you make a decision based on experience and I am talking here about RESCUES only the lest amount of exposure and the probability of success.
FFO #10– is for fighting fire not having to deal with a rescue.
I would also note once they were into the burned BLACK they were safe even with the still smoking embers.
their only real decision was getting thru the flames they ran into before they started up the 2 track.
That can be done safely and is done on many occasions to get to the black by FF
at a low burning point so really not a big deal once in the burn traveling thru the burn was no big deal. as you can see in the videos.
The fire had made its run all they had to do was get thru the edge of it and they were on there way……………….
Thanks Bob, I really appreciate this. That’s exactly what I was wondering about.
These were five VERY experienced guys. Even then, though, Aaron and his co-fighter sounded pretty OMG while they were going thru it. And they DID have that convo about how they didn’t want to become a part of the problem.
I keep thinking about that rescue on the Deer Creek fire on Lessons Learned. With the helicopter that almost went off the edge of the rock ledge they were on. That was pretty hairy, and there wasn’t even any fire around them. Just a teetering helicopter they had to grab hold of and hang on to.
These two threads are from Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy’s yarnellhillfireblog site. They are both replies from the former Sierra HS Superintendent Ken Jordan who was on the Clear Creek Fire and who Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy LIED about and said she talked with him. Jordan is justified in chastising and criticizing Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy for ignoring the truth, having her own agenda, telling experinced WFF that the ‘WFF Rules’ are worthless, and much more.
“Kenneth M. Jordan December 5, 2014 at 1:36 pm
Know what your fire is doing at all times, Weather becoming hotter and dryer, Wind increases and or changes direction. Maintain prompt communications with with your forces , your supervisor and adjoining forces. Unburned fuel between you and the fire. Cannot see main fire not in communications with anyone who can, Terrain and fuel make escape to safety zone difficult, Fire has not been properly scouted or sized up, Base all actions on current and expected fire behavior, Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first? Competent lookout?(IRPG page 6 #1 Experienced, competent, trusted? #2 Escape route: Scouted for loose soil rocks, vegetation #3-Safety Zones: Back into the clean burn,) If we are not going to adhere to these few simple rules on fires, and try to rationalize, minimize or justify, peoples decisions made on entrapment fires, that would contradict them, and then not use them in entrapment/fatality investigations then we should… get rid of them….. Now I’m really done”
“Kenneth M. Jordan December 4, 2014 at 8:21 pm
I’m done here, I really don’t care about you and Fred, who he yelled at on his crew and your immature little contest, or your ridiculous theory about what happened on the Clear Creek any more, you- weren’t-there, “some fellow” would have a name, It is on video, and I did document everything. The blow up had absolutely nothing to do with the anchor point, the anchor was fine, the fire spotted across the creek and down canyon there was area ignition, due to 40 plus mile an hour frontal winds, low humidity, heavy fuel load, low fuel moisture, frequent spotting due to the receptive fuel bed the arrow dynamic fire brands, combine this with in draft from the column, no one was hurt because we did what we were supposed to move into the black, and stayed there till the danger had passed, I tried to explain what happened but it doesn’t make sense to you, Its like trying to explain adult life to a second grader, aint gonna happen, Its also obvious that you dislike the Hotshot organization “Hotshot Supts stick up of each other,” comeon, really? You obviously have no intention of solving safety issues, your mad at someone and you wan’t to make yourself feel better by trying to justify, and rationalize your position,
Try to have a have a great Christmas or whatever you people celebrate, don’t bother to respond to this because I don’t plan on being on this thing any more, i’ll share my knowledge, experience and insight were it can be utilized, Gabbert, I would stay away from this too, Its counter productive to the cause and your fire genius is needed elsewhere! .You win! firefighters loose……See ya!!”
There are those that are not even on this site that see through Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy’s agenda, attempts at deception, and prevarication. This woman knows no bounds.
Those cell phone records certainly are crucial to this investigation. That is why people are unhappy with the results of the investigations and why I think FBI should be involved here. Nineteen fine young men have perished and the loved ones, friends, concerned citizens want to know why down to the last finest detail. It is called closure and however the chips fall regarding individuals who bear responsibility let it be. We have a legal system that includes a grand jury and if need be a jury of their peers should there be culpability.
A retired cop, Herb tells me that people are not happy with seeing the deaths of these young men treated lightly. He says they will want justice. I don’t see that anyone would have intentionally caused the death of those GMHS, but putting them at undue risk?
If it were a fact that certain individuals intentionally allowed this fire to continue when it could have been stopped early, would that not constitute a crime? I wonder if withholding information on a situation like this would be a crime? Bob let us know–we don’t see Herb but maybe once or twice a month so it is just a curious question on my part. Maybe these individuals would come forward with more information if they understood these things. It just seems to me that too many people are holding back when they ought to be telling us the real story.
Reply to Sonny post on December 6, 2014 at 10:40 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Those cell phone records certainly are crucial to this investigation.
Yes. They ARE… and always HAVE been.
It is a known FACT that ‘cellphones’ were being used HEAVILY by people in authority on that fire and were, indeed, being RELIED upon for crucial communications between ALL of ‘fire command’.
Even now… in the latest videos released… we can see what ‘Safety Officer’ Tony Sciacca was actually DOING as he was standing there in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
Engines are evacuating… the fire is cresting the ridges… firefighters are heard COUGHING because of all the smoke… OPS2 Paul Musser was right there in the Shrine parking lot verbally saying to Prescott off-the-radar hire KC “Bucky” Yowell… “Everything is going to SHIT”.. KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell then immediately agrees with Musser and replies “Yep… everything is going to SHIT!”
The Granite Mountain Crew Carriers have passed right by Sciacca and they didn’t even have the actual crew inside of them… which means they were still ‘somewhere else’.
So what do we see ‘Safety Officer’ Tony Sciacca actually DOING at that moment?
He is on his cellphone talking to someone else on their cellphone about how he doesn’t have someone else’s cellphone number.
Safety Officer Tony Sciacca arrived LATE to that fire… and even at the most crucial moment in the day he is still just on a ‘learning curve’ and trying to get all the CELL PHONE numbers he doesn’t seem to have but wants to have. THAT was his primary concern at that moment.
It is obvious from all these videos and from all the testimony that CELL PHONES are no longer a ‘luxury’ for WFF fire command. They are a NECESSITY… and EVERYONE is using them for crucial communications that used to only take place over the RADIO so that others could actually HEAR the traffic ( and remain informed ).
The investigators should have obtained EVERYONE’S cell phone records just for this reason alone. They didn’t need to wait to see if any testimony might indicate any particular person had called any other particular person. Those cellphone records ( ALL of them ) were as critical to have as any actual captures of radio conversations when it came to fully understanding WHO was communicating with WHO that day… and WHEN… and about WHAT.
MOST of these guys are ALSO having their cellphones fully PAID for by the public agencies they work for… so that makes it even EASIER to obtain the records. No ‘permissions’ required.
Any competent investigators would have had ALL of the cellphone records from ALL of the people in any position of authority on that fire even BEFORE they conducted any interviews… so that DURING they interview they could get that person themselves to explain WHO they had been talking to at certain moments… and about WHAT.
These days… that’s like ‘Investigations 101’.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> I don’t see that anyone would have intentionally caused the death
>> of those GMHS, but putting them at undue risk?
The Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office did not find any ‘criminal intent’.
But as for ‘undue risk’ and NEGLIGENCE?… the evidence of that is EVERYWHERE.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> If it were a fact that certain individuals intentionally allowed
>> this fire to continue when it could have been stopped early,
>> would that not constitute a crime?
Yes. There is, in fact, something called “Criminal Negligence’… but it’s complicated.
Here is what Wikipedia actually has to say about that…
————————————————————————-
CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE
To constitute a crime, there must be an actus reus (Latin for “guilty act”) accompanied by the mens rea (see concurrence). Negligence shows the least level of culpability, intention being the most serious, and recklessness being of intermediate seriousness, overlapping with gross negligence. The distinction between recklessness and criminal negligence lies in the presence or absence of foresight as to the prohibited consequences. Recklessness is usually described as a ‘malfeasance’ where the defendant knowingly exposes another to the risk of injury. The fault lies in being willing to run the risk. But criminal negligence is a ‘misfeasance or ‘nonfeasance’ (see omission), where the fault lies in the failure to foresee and so allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest. In some cases this failure can rise to the level of willful blindness where the individual intentionally avoids adverting to the reality of a situation. (In the United States, there may sometimes be a slightly different interpretation for willful blindness.) The degree of culpability is determined by applying a reasonable person standard. Criminal negligence becomes “gross” when the failure to foresee involves a “wanton disregard for human life” (see the discussion in corporate manslaughter).
—————————————————————————
Here is one of the relevant sentences from that ‘mouthful’ up above…
“Criminal negligence is a ‘misfeasance or ‘nonfeasance’ (see omission), where the fault lies in the failure to foresee and so allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest.”
So even the “Failure to foresee” what MIGHT happen and to take no action to prevent it can be considered “Criminal Negligence”.
I think this definition can be applied to the Yarnell Hill Fire for pretty much that entire weekend… up to and including the fatalities.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> I wonder if withholding information on a situation like this would be a crime?
Again… that depends.
Despite what a lot of people think… until the YCSO officially declared that there was no detectable ‘crime’ involved ( from a law enforcement perspective )… the deployment site and all adjacent areas default to being CONSIDERED to be a ‘crime scene’… and all laws and regulations regarding “Evidence at a crime scene’ were in full effect.
In other words… if ANYONE tampered with that deployment site overnight or actually REMOVED anything from that deployment site overnight and BEFORE the YCSO detectives arrived… that is automatically a CRIME.
Even AFTER the detectives left… that was still considered a CRIME SCENE ( legally speaking ) until the YCSO detectives officially declared it was NOT… and all the same rules about disturbing or removing anything ( like cameras, cellphones, or GPS units ) from that ‘scene’ were still in full effect.
As far as ‘withholding information’ goes… there are also some pretty strict laws that relate to “obstructing an investigation”.
Let’s turn to Wikipedia again for just one ‘accepted’ definition…
——————————————————————–
The crime of obstruction of justice, in United States jurisdictions, refers to the crime of obstructing the work of police, investigators, regulatory agencies, prosecutors, or other (usually government) officials. Common law jurisdictions other than the United States tend to use the wider offense of perverting the course of justice.
Generally, obstruction charges are laid when it is discovered that a person questioned in an investigation, other than a suspect, has lied to the investigating officers. However, in most common law jurisdictions, the right to remain silent used to allow any person questioned by police merely to refuse to answer questions posed by an investigator without giving any reason for doing so. (In such a case, the investigators may subpoena the witness to give testimony under oath in court, though the witness may then exercise their rights, for example in the Fifth Amendment, if they believe their answer may serve to incriminate themselves.) If the person tried to protect a suspect (such as by providing a false alibi, even if the suspect is in fact innocent) or to hide from investigation of their own activities (such as to hide their involvement in another crime), this may leave them liable to prosecution. Obstruction charges can also be laid if a person alters, destroys, or conceals physical evidence, even if he was under no compulsion at any time to produce such evidence. Often, no actual investigation or substantiated suspicion of a specific incident need exist to support a charge of obstruction of justice.
——————————————————————–
Notice the first sentence above.
It doesn’t just say “police investigators”.
There is a COMMA there between “police” and “investgators”.
Police detectives aren’t the only “investigators” that can be “obstructed” during the performance of their legally bound duties.
It can still be a CRIME to “obstruct” any official, legal investigation by people or agencies who are authorized to be conducting that investigation.
Both the SAIT and ADOSH would fall into that category.
We still don’t have actual transcripts of ANY of the ‘official’ SAIT interviews.
We still don’t know exactly what questions were ( or were NOT ) asked… or even if ANY of the people being interviewed by the SAIT either refused to answer some questions or might have even invoked their fifth ammendment rights to NOT answer some questions.
With the ADOSH interviews… we ARE ( for the most part ) seeing exactly what went on in those ‘interviews’ with the ADOSH investigators… but shat complicates things there is that over and over again we see the same sort of ‘game’ taking place in those ADOSH interviews.
For a lot of those ADOSH interviews… the ‘game’ that was being played was along the lines of “Ask me the right question and I’ll give you the right answer”.
In MANY of the ADOSH interviews… there was a LAWYER or an ‘Agency Representative” sitting right there next to the person ADOSH was interviewing… and I’m sure they were all being advised to be “cooperative”… but probably along the lines of “Only answer the questions you are asked”.
That is anyone’s RIGHT… unless they are in a court of law…. and even then anyone is allowed to invoke their 5th amendment rights to NOT answer questions if they think they might “incriminate themselves” or that the answers to the questions might result in any kind of proceedings against THEM, due to their testimony.
Bottom line here is that other than discovering that someone has actually ‘tampered with physical evidence” ( like removing it so it never enters into the ‘chain of evidence’ or editing raw material before it reaches investigators )… it is VERY hard to prove “obstruction of justice” just because someone might not be telling you something they really should when they are being “questioned” as part of the investigation process itself.
Once things go to COURT… however… totally different story.
The only protection you have there for NOT answering questions you might be asked is to invoke your own 5th amendment rights.
Even then… a judge can decide that it is NOT appropriate for you to be invoking those rights for a particular question you are being asked… and the judge can still ORDER you to respond. If you still fail to do so… you are now in ‘contempt of court’… which carries its own penalties.
In other words… once you are in court… you can ONLY invoke the 5th amendment if you feel your response to a question might put YOU into some legal jeopardy. If you are trying to invoke your OWN 5th amendment rights ( in court ) just because you are trying to not reveal information about what you know or you are trying to protect someone OTHER than yourself… the judge can deny the 5th amendment claim and still ORDER you to ‘answer the question’.
It’s pretty hard to walk into court with your OWN ‘agenda’ of trying to protect someone else or to prevent what you know from being known.
That usually just becomes a dog that won’t hunt.
NOTE
On the first day of the fire and the second it is not uncommon todays world to
make a low IA effort it happens a lot on many fires. The problem is getting the
Fire spread estimates right and keeping a low cost.
By Sunday the fire had gotten out of there expected containment and then the resources started being ordered by then they were 24 Hours behind the power curve
and the unexpected damage hit very hard in the towns.
When dealing with fires close to urban interface a more aggressive IA should take place.
Trying to save bucks buy putting out a small fire can be a big mistake as in this case
and the loss of private property. was in fact the AZFire managements fault the law suits will follow on an individual basses but the property owners have some fault by not protecting there property with clearance and defensible space.
WTKTT,
I think of all you wrote above, the operative phrase you used was “competent investigators.” They don’t seem to have been very competent and even if they were, they MAY have very well been ‘directed’ to NOT include certain evidence, be SELECTIVE in their interviews, and all the other machinations that go along with feckless ‘investigations’ where they establish a conclusion FIRST and then get the quote-unquote FACTS to fit that ‘conclusion.’ I allege that this has the classic fingerprint of a Federal wildland fire fatality investigation.
reply to Robert the Second says
DECEMBER 6, 2014 AT 7:35 PM—Amen.
I have always felt the beginning of this needed not YCSO involvement due to fatalities and some investigative organization that was not a conflict of interest not just for the GMHS who we all know some of the YCSO that was there on scene KNEW the GMHS and the higher ups so wouldn’t that make them out due to that.
“conflict of interest?”
Joy… the initial YCSO ‘involvement’ was REQUIRED ( by law ).
There were 19 dead bodies lying in a canyon in THEIR jurisdiction.
The initial scene investigation was up to them and it was ‘their call’ as to whether there was any PCRTB ( Probable Cause / Reason To Believe ) any kind of ‘crime’ had been committed.
The coroner’s report indicated that all 19 fatalities were from ‘accidental causes’. and there was no physical evidence of any ‘foul play’ with any of the deceased.
At THAT point… any number of ‘agencies’ could have stepped in and started their own investigations and that includes the NTSB or any other Federal Agency charged with accident investigations ( NOTE: NTSB can investigate anything if instructed to do so. Doesn’t have to be ‘transportation’ related ).
The Granite Mountain Hotshots were CERTIFIED as a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’ and were being automatically included in the ‘national resource’ pool for Type 1 Hotshot teams. The Blue Ridge Hotshots were ( in all ways ) a FEDERALLY owned and operated Type 1 Hotshot crew. The VLAT on the fire that had that near collision with the Hotshot crew was on ‘contract’… but there is always FEDERAL involvement there with all VLAT resources. There were a lot of FEDERAL “Bureau of Land Management” people directly involved ( at a command or supervisory level ) with fire all weekend. Dean Fernandez ( BLM ) was even assigned as ‘Co-Incident-Commander’ along with Russ Shumate all day Saturday.
We don’t know if the FEDS ever even made a move to launch their own investigation ( even though they probably should have ). It was, officially, a STATE run fire despite all the FEDERAL resources that were actually involved. All we know is that they ‘allowed’ Arizona Forestry to ‘take the lead’… but they still supplied one of their employees ( Mike Dudley of the US Forestry Service ) to be the CO-LEAD of the Arizona Forestry SAIT investigation.
ADOSH was never charged with FULLY investigating the tragedy. Their only job was to establish how SAFE that Arizona Forestry ‘workplace’ was ( or was NOT ), whether there was negligence involved ragarding the ‘workplace fatatlities’ ( or NOT )… and to issue appropriate fines and sanctions.
They did that. They were basically ‘pegging the meter’ on ‘unsafe workplace’ and ‘negligence’ issues before they even finished their first round of interviews and they basically issued the MAXIMUM fines they were even allowed to by law.
I believe that YCSO did a good job with the initial investigation.
I believe they went ‘by the book’ and were objective about it.
The only thing I wish they had done differently would have been to make SURE there were enough YCSO deputies out there guarding that site the first night and ‘protecting the scene’ until the YCSO detectives got there at first light.
There is some question, now, about WHO was really allowed to access that potential ‘crime scene’ for HOURS that night… and BEFORE the detectives could get there.
Even the detectives report that someone ( or group of people ) had been allowed to ‘enter the site’ and cover all the bodies with tarps ( and disturb the site itself in the process ) just out of some fear that the news helicopters would get any photos of the bodies before the detectives had arrived.
Even then… the detectives did what they were supposed to do.
Regardless of the fact that ( apparently ) any number of ‘unauthorized’ people had been allowed access to the site all nite and did at least one obvious ‘unauthorized’ thing… the detectives proceeded to document the site ‘as they found it’… as they are supposed to do.
They first had to use their FARO 3-D imaging system to photograph the site ‘as found’…. complete with all the unauthorized tarps in place.
Then they had to remove the tarps as carefully as possible to try and get the site back to its original, undistrubed state… and then they used the FARO 3-D system to photograph the entire site AGAIN… sans tarps.
There WAS at least one YCSO Sheriff’s Deupty assigned to ‘guard the site’ that night… but apparently he was going along with whatever the firefighters who were up all night at the Boulder Springs Ranch felt needed to be done ‘out there’ at the deployment site… and he was letting them access the site to do those things.
He should NOT have done that… but he did.
Bad typo above, sorry. ( More like a brain fart, actually ).
Obviously the DC10 VLAT did NOT have a ‘near collision’ with the Hotshots. It was the Skycrane Helicopter.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
“The VLAT on the fire that had that near collision with the Skycrane Helicopter was on ‘contract’… but there is always FEDERAL involvement there with all DC10 VLAT resources.”
WTKTT,
I believe that the ‘DISCRETIONARY FUNCTION’ (as applied to the individual state laws under the Tenth Amendment) MAY apply here. Hearken back a few chapters and look for my post on the BACKFIRE 2000 court case on the Sula Complex in Montana where they applied the Discretionary Principle on a FEDERAL wildfire, and the Court made a feeble attempt to emasculate the Ten Standard Fire Orders.
Quoting from Wikipedia on the Federal Tort Claims Act below:
“The discretionary function exception precludes suit “based upon an act or omission of an employee of the Government, exercising due care in the execution of a statute or regulation” or “based upon the exercise or performance or the failure to exercise or perform a discretionary function or duty. … It applies without regard to the kind of employee or official charged with the breach of duty, so long as the employee or official is performing, or failing to perform, a discretionary function. Moreover, the exception applies despite allegations of abuse of discretion, by the terms of the exception itself. … ”
Using a Supreme Court case (Berkowitz 1988) they established a two-prong test to determine the Discretionary Function. “… (1) whether the challenged conduct involved an ELEMENT OF JUDGEMENT OR CHOICE and (2) whether the decision involved was the kind the discretionary function exception was designed to shield.” The second prong is satisfied “if the action challenged in the case involves the PERMISSIBLE EXERCISE OF POLICY JUDGEMENT.” (all emphasis added)
Source: Wikipedia http://www.rmlawcall.com/federal_tort_claims_act.shtml
Unfortunately, as far as I know there is NO ‘POLICY’ per se, on actual wildland firefighting, wildland urban interface (WUI) operations, burning out operations, mop up operations, etc. There are WFF ‘Rules’ like (LCES, Ten Standard Fire Orders.) and then there are guidelines(18 Watch Out Situations).
WTKKT,
I saved you the trouble. Here is the BACKFIRE 2000 court case ruling:
http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/textdocuments/Backfire-2000-ruling-memo.pdf
Reply to Robert the Second post on December 6, 2014 at 8:05 pm
RTS… Thank you! Great stuff and great research.
I’ll try to keep this short since we are obviously NOT going to solve the complex legal issues here.
>> RTS wrote…
>>
>> I believe that the ‘DISCRETIONARY FUNCTION’ (as applied
>> to the individual state laws under the Tenth Amendment)
>> MAY apply here.
It’s possible… but remember this was a STATE run fire… and Arizona is NOT one of the States in the Union where public employees ( including state officials, fireman, police, anyone else on the AZ STATE PUBLIC payroll ) automatically have ‘sovereign immunity’ like the FEDS do.
Anyone CAN sue AZ State Employees when they fuck up.
There ARE ‘limitations’, however, and that’s when all the legal eagles take flight and the ‘games’ begin.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Hearken back a few chapters and look for my post on
>> the BACKFIRE 2000 court case on the Sula Complex in
>> Montana where they applied the Discretionary Principle
>> on a FEDERAL wildfire, and the Court made a feeble
>> attempt to emasculate the Ten Standard Fire Orders.
I remember… but again… that was a FEDERAL deal.
This is not. Arizona is not one of the states that has adopted
carte-blanche ‘sovereign immunity’ for State employees.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Quoting from Wikipedia on the Federal Tort Claims Act below:
>>
>> “The discretionary function exception precludes suit “based
>> upon an act or omission of an employee of the Government,
>> exercising due care in the execution of a statute or regulation”
>> or “based upon the exercise or performance or the failure
>> to exercise or perform a discretionary function or duty. …
>> It applies without regard to the kind of employee or official
>> charged with the breach of duty, so long as the employee
>> or official is performing, or failing to perform, a discretionary
>> function. Moreover, the exception applies despite allegations
>> of abuse of discretion, by the terms of the exception itself. … ”
That is all TRUE… and provides another layer of ‘sovereign immunity’
to FEDERAL employees… or any State that has also legislatively
adopted some/all of those same ‘sovereign immunity’ laws for their
own State employees.
Arizona is NOT one of those States.
>> RTS also wrote…
>>
>> Using a Supreme Court case (Berkowitz 1988) they
>> established a two-prong test to determine the
>> Discretionary Function. “… (1) whether the challenged
>> conduct involved an ELEMENT OF JUDGEMENT OR CHOICE
>> and (2) whether the decision involved was the kind the
>> discretionary function exception was designed to
>> shield.” The second prong is satisfied “if the action
>> challenged in the case involves the PERMISSIBLE
>> EXERCISE OF POLICY JUDGEMENT.” (all emphasis added)
Again ( not trying to sound like a broken record here… EVERYTHING you have found IS relevant. I’m just commenting back )… this was a case that was deciding a FEDERAL ‘tort’ limitations and the case was actually “Berkowitz vs. THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT”.
Another FEDERAL level deal.
The ‘wrongful death” suits filed for Yarnell are against ( among others ) the “State of Arizona Forestry Division”… and it matters very much what STATE law is before the FEDERAL stuff comes into play.
Yes… I know… FEDERAL law always overrides STATE law… but ONLY if the attorneys involved are good enough to FIRST bypass State law and ‘kick it upstairs” ( if you will ).
The Arizona State Attorneys have ALREADY filed a document containing all the reasons they are asking a District Judge to ‘throw out’ the wrongful death suits… but neither this FEDERAL level ‘PERMISSIBLE EXERCISE OF POLICY JUDGEMENT’ deal nor ‘Berkowitz vs. US Government’ are ‘cited’ as reasons by the Arizona State Attorneys.
They have a raft of their own STATE level laws and STATE level reasons why the ‘wrongful death’ suits should be tossed… but I don’t see them trying to ‘kick it upstairs’ to the overriding FED case-law level. Not YET, anyway.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, as far as I know there is NO ‘POLICY’ per se,
>> on actual wildland firefighting, wildland urban interface
>> (WUI) operations, burning out operations, mop up operations,
>> etc. There are WFF ‘Rules’ like (LCES, Ten Standard Fire
>> Orders.) and then there are guidelines(18 Watch Out Situations).
You are right… there ISN’T… and that is why the Arizona State Attorneys are trying to say that the generic “Firefighter’s Rule” applies here.
There is nothing specific in the “Firefighter’s Rule” that mentions ‘Wildland Firefighting”… but the Arizona attorneys are trying to establish in their own dismissal request that it doesn’t matter. A Firefighter is a Firefighter.
And they may be right.
There just isn’t actually much ‘case law’ to go on here and if these lawsuits go forward some ‘new ground’ could get broken here… legally speaking.
** REQUEST FOR DISMISSAL OF ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ SUITS…
Arizona State Attorneys have filed a motion in District Court for the ‘Wrongful Death’ suits related to the Yarnell Fire to be dismissed.
They list a number of legal reasons including the fact that defendants Roy Hall and Todd Abel have the kind of ‘decision making immunity’ that you refer to above…. but that’s going to be a hard road to go since Arizona is NOT one of the States in the Union that has legislatively established the same ‘sovereign immunity’ for AZ State employees that FEDERAL employees enjoy.
They are also asking for dismissal under the obscure “Fireman’s Rule”.
I actually don’t think this has ever been attempted before when it comes to fatalities from a WILDLAND fire. Gonna be an interesting case.
They are trying to say that Arizona ‘officially’ adopted what is known as the “Fireman’s Rule’ and the ‘immunity’ it provides in a 2005 case called “Espinoza v. Shulenburg” and they refer directly to it in their requests for ‘dismissal’.
A copy of that ‘Espinoza v. Shulenburg’ deal is here…
http://cases.justia.com/arizona/court-of-appeals-division-one-published/CV040438.pdf?ts=1396107367
From the document…
—————————————————————-
IN THE COURT OF APPEALS
STATE OF ARIZONA
DIVISION ONE
ELIZABETH ESPINOZA, an unmarried
woman,
Plaintiff/Appellant,
v.
CARRINGTON SCHULENBURG, an unmarried
woman; JOHN SCHULENBURG and DEBRA
SCHULENBURG, husband and wife,
—————————————————————–
This document actually contains a reference to a finding by the New Jersey Supreme Court which was one of the first legal ‘tests’ of what is now generally known as the “fireman’s Rule”
From the New Jersey Supreme Court Decision…
———————————————————————
It is the fireman’s business to deal with that very hazard ( FIRE ) and hence he cannot complain of negligence in the creation of the very occasion for his engagement. In terms of duty, it may be said that there is none owed the fireman to exercise care so as not to require the special services for which he is trained and paid. Probably most fires are attributable to negligence, and in the final analysis the policy decision is that it would be too burdensome to charge all who carelessly cause or fail to prevent fires with the injuries suffered by the expert retained with public funds to deal with those inevitable, although negligently created, occurrences.
—————————————————————–
In other words ( and I know this is hard to believe… but here goes )…
If you are paid to fight a fire… and other people paid to fight the same fire end up causing MORE fire ( out of their own negligence, not yours )… and that ‘extra fire’ caused by THEIR negligence kills YOU… you can’t claim you were ‘wrongfully killed’ because you were already getting paid to fight fire.
Pretty whacky, eh?
THAT is one of the reasons the Arizona State attorneys are claiming that Arizona Forestry, Roy Hall, Todd Abel… and all the other ‘defendants’ in the ‘wrongful death’ suits have ‘immunity’. from these suits filed by the families of OTHER fireman who died fighting the same fire.
1) We were all being paid to fight a fire.
2) Everybody knows sometimes you ‘fight fire with fire’ and then there’s MORE fire
3) You got killed by either the original ‘fire’.. or the MORE FIRE.
4) Whoopee shit. Whadda you want from us? No negligence here.
Nothing to see here… move along… move along.
PS: The above has NOTHING to do with whether AZ Forestry will ultimately be found liable for all the PROPERTY damage due to either ‘gross’ or ‘criminal’ negligence. I am only quoting from the legal brief filed that is requesting dismissal of the ‘wrongful death’ suits filed by the families of the firefighters who died. AZ State attorneys are actually claiming the suits are ‘invalid’ because of this whacky ‘Fireman’s Rule”.
Followup…
A copy of the actual ‘Motion for Dismissal’ of the ‘wrongful death’ suits filed in District Court by the Arizona State Attorneys is here…
http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/10/27/Yarnell%20Dismiss.pdf
Scroll down to the section where they start referencing the ‘Espinoza v. Shulenburg’ case for the part where they make their full argument about how the “Firefighter’s Rule” should be cause enough alone for the ‘wrongful death’ suits to be ‘dismissed’.
WTKTT,
Most informative and that was the first I had ever heard of the ‘Fireman’s Rule.’ Thanks.
As far as Workman’s Compensation being alleged as the family’s only remedy, the State of AZ argued likewise when the families of the Perryville inmates died on the June 26, 1990, Dude Fire.
I keyed in on this one assertion in the Motion of Dismissal.:
“Here, Plaintiffs accuse Hall and Shumate of violating the decedent firefighters’ “constitutionally-protected liberty interest in bodily security by KNOWINGLY CREATING AN ADDITIONAL DANGER to those decedents and by PLACING THEM IN A ZONE OF DANGER THAT, BUT FOR THE AFFIRMATIVE ACTIONS OF DEFENDANTS HALL AND SHUMATE, THEY OTHERWISE WOULD NOT HAVE FACED..” (emphasis added)
Indeed, the GMHS supervisors AND NO ONE ELSE placed THEMSELVES “IN A ZONE OF DANGER” and that they made a conscious “AFFIRMATIVE ACTION” decision to do so. They made a conscious decision to LEAVE A PERFECTLY VIABLE SAFETY ZONE OF THEIR OWN VOLITION. AT THE WORST POSSIBLE TIME NO ONE FORCED THEM TO LEAVE THEIR SAFETY ZONE.
Here is a link to a paper by Assistant U.S. Attorney Mike Johns tiled ‘Fire law’ that may or may not provide some insight into what we are discussing here. He claims to have been a Payson Hot Shot Foreman in 1971, however, the Payson Hot Shots did not even exist as a viable Hot Shot Crew until 1972.
WARNING:: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY THAT YOU DID
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2011/lessons-learned/fire-law-mike-johns.pdf
This is from the “Transition to Incident Command Team Capable of Handling More Complex Incidents” section:
“Transition from initial attack to extended attack must be treated as a potentially life-threatening event, FSM 5130.3(4). During transitions
the pre-existing forces will remain subject to liability for their acts and omissions as long as there remains proximate cause between those acts or omissions and a fatality, despite the fact that the fire has already been determined too complex for those forces. THE INCOMING FORCES WILL BE .” (emphasis added)
The FSM 5130. 3(4) is a reference to a Forest Service Manual, i.e. Federal, so it may not necessarily apply to a State case. Moreover, this was merely AUSA John’s legal OPINION and NOT legal precedent.
Again, the GMHS supervisors – OF THEIR OWN VOLITION – left a perfectly good Safety Zone without the benefit of a required Lookout, and that appears to place them squarely in the “SUBJECT TO LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENCES PROXIMATELY CAUSED BY THEIR OWN ACTS OR OMISSIONS” realm.
This portion was deleted on the above post:
“THE INCOMING FORCES WILL BE SUBJECT TO LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENCES PROXIMATELY CAUSED BY THEIR OWN ACTS OF OR OMISSIONS, INCLUDING RECKLESS FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE AND TO MITIGATE WHATEVER THEY WERE LEFT WITH BY THE OUTGOING FORCES.”
Reply to Robert the Second post on
December 7, 2014 at 11:43 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Most informative and that was the first I had
>> ever heard of the ‘Fireman’s Rule.’ Thanks.
RTS… Thanks again! Great observation(s) and great breakdown(s).
Remember that as far as the State of Arizona is concerned… it’s simply about MONEY.
Whatever they have to do, or claim, to get out of having to pay a single dime to take care of the families of these men that were killed while working for the State or Arizona… they will do it.
Their PRIMARY ‘attack’ won’t be this whacky ‘Fireman’s Rule’… but they ARE indicating they lengths they will go to.
Speaking of that ‘quote’ from the ‘dismissal’ request document you cited ( on page 6 )… did you know that they have now back-assed right into YOUR ongoing claims about one of the primary reasons those men died?…
“BAD decisions with GOOD outcomes”
Here’s that blurb again from the AZ State attorneys…
———————————————————–
The decedents were all professional firefighters who died fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire. Here, Plaintiffs accuse Hall and Shumate of violating the decedent firefighters’ “constitutionally-protected liberty interest in bodily security by knowingly creating an additional danger to those decedents and by placing them in a zone of danger that, but for the affirmative actions of Defendants Hall and Shumate, they otherwise would not have faced.”
———————————————————
Then there is THIS right in the next paragraph…
——————————————————–
For several reasons, these assertions fail to satisfy the first prong necessary to overcome qualified immunity. In the first place, there is no constitutional right to a safe workplace. See Collins v. City of Harker Heights, 503, U.S. 115, 126-128, 112 S.Ct. 1061 (1992). And a state actor is not obligated by the Constitution to protect public employees from inherent job-related risks of injury even where the increased risk of injury results from a state actor’s deliberate indifference. See e.g., Estate of Phillips, 455 F.3d 397, 407 (D.C. Cir. 2006).
—————————————————————-
The ‘Collins v. City of Harker Heights’ thing is ‘right out of the playbook’…. but I don’t think the AZ State Attorneys even realized they just back-assed into a place where it they want to go to the matt on this point… then “BAD decisions with GOOD outcomes” is going to end up being a lot more ‘front and center’ than they may have liked.
“Collins v. City of Harker Heights” is a FAMOUS case.
It was a relatively simple case where a City of Harker Heights sanitation department worker died while trying to clear a sewer line… and it turned out it was because ( YOU, especially, will love this )… the City of Harker Heights had been practicing/allowing “BAD decisions with GOOD outcomes” for years within their city utilitiles and services divisions.
The man’s widow brought a ‘1983’ ( wrongful death, violation of constitutional rights ) case against the City and it’s one of those cases that went “The Full Monty” and made it all the way to the Supreme Court.
It’s ONE of the cases where the Supreme Court did, in fact, decide that there is no actual CONSTITUTIONAL right to a safe workplace.
That ‘issue’ is pretty much continually making its way back to the Supreme Court… and might do so again THIS time.
The lawyers for the State of Arizona are indicating, in their motion for dismssal of the Yarnell ‘wrongful death’ suits that they are willing to go this route and cite the same Supreme Court decision(s) regarding ‘1983’ claims.
Fine. Whatever. Maybe this issue about 1983 claims and ‘wrongful death’ in a workplace WILL go all the way to the Supreme Court AGAIN.
But there is still LEGISLATION that has to be overcome, which carries just as much (legal) weight as the Constitution does.
From pretty much the ‘Front Door Document’ at OSHA…
https://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha3021.pdf
———————————————————
Worker Protection is the Law of the Land.
You have the RIGHT to a SAFE workplace.
The Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (OSH
Act) was passed to prevent workers from being killed
or otherwise harmed at work.
————————————————————
Period. End of Story.
It might not have dripped off Thomas Jefferson’s pen… but it’s the LAW.
Arizona ADOSH has ALREADY determined there was so much NEGLIGENCE in that workplace that it has levied pretty much the MAXIMUM fines it is even allowed to do, by law, against the people that were running that Yarnell Hill Fire.
There’s even evidence in the ADOSH emails released publicly that they KNEW they had they had ‘pegged the meter’ and ‘rung the bell’ on the MAXIMUM fines and sanctions they could impose against Arizona Forestry before they even finished their first round of interviews with the people running that fiasco.
They finished their ‘investigation’ just for the sake of completeness, but it apparently became so obvious to them that they could ‘throw the book’ at Arizona Forestry so early in the game that they even abandoned efforts to complete some interviews they wanted to do.
Example: They couldn’t get one single ex-Granite Mountain employee ( out of the SIXTY SEVEN of them ) to consent to an any kind of interview and they were going to pursue this… but the moment even the first round of interviews had them ‘pegging the meter’ on proof of NEGLIGENCE in that work place and they had already hit the point where they could ‘throw the book’ at Arizona Forestry… there didn’t seem much point in pursuing the ‘subpoenas’ it might have taken to get
any GM alum to open their mouths about anything ( good, bad or ugly ).
Arizona Forestry’s APPEAL of the ADOSH findings that was originally scheduled for November but got ‘pushed off’ 8 months until next July is still crucial for the AZ State lawyers.
They HAVE to get those ADOSH findings of NEGLIGENCE either mitigated ( or reversed ) or they are NOT going to be able to stay ‘safe’ with the simple claim the ‘Exclusive Remedy’ of Workers Compensation Death Benefits is all the survivors of these dead ‘Arizona State Employees’ deserve.
It wasn’t ADOSH’s job to tell the WHOLE story… and find out EXACTLY why those 19 men might have lost their lives.
I wish it HAD been…. since they had the authority to continue to do interviews and to subpoena testimony from reluctant people ( Like any/all former Granite Mountain employees ).
But the minute they knew they had ‘pegged the meter’ on the FINES they were going to be able to impose against Arizona Forestry… they pretty much called it a day.
WTKTT,
I think the “Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes’ would fall into this realm cited above:
“And a state actor is not obligated by the Constitution to protect public employees from inherent job-related risks of injury EVEN WHERE THE INCREASED RISK OF INJURY RESULTS FROM A STATE ACTOR’S DELIBERATE INDIFFERENCE. See e.g., Estate of Phillips, 455 F.3d 397, 407 (D.C. Cir. 2006. (emphasis added)
Moreover, I allege there was also DELIBERATE INDIFFERENCE that fateful day by NOT following the REQUIRED standards in LCES and the TEN STANDARD FIRE ORDERS and by practicing a PATTERN OF ‘BAD DECISIONS WITH GOOD OUTCOMES.’
Agree totally. There was a LOT of ‘deliberate indifference’ that fateful day and, indeed, that entire weekend… from the moment the lightning strike was first reported.
There really is no question about that.
The only ‘question’ is whether any standard ‘1983’ claim can survive as related to ‘Constitutional Violations’.
In my mind… “deliberate indifference” directly translates to criminal and/or gross negligence.
That’s where the ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clause of Workmen’s Comp ( which is all that Arizona Forestry wants to pay ) bites the dust.
By the way… in the eyes of the law… ‘Gross’ negligence is actually a step ABOVE ‘Criminal Negligence’ and, if proven, carries even harsher penalties that ‘Criminal Negligence’.
It’s a weird concept, and people often bristle at that word ‘Criminal’… but ‘Criminal Negligence’ does not LEGALLY mean an actual ‘Crime’ has been committed.
When used in reference to the SCALE of NEGLIGENCE involved… ‘Criminal’ evokes more the ‘morally wrong’ definition of ‘Criminal’ than the more common “one who has committed an actual crime” definition.
As in… ( just an example usage )…
It was ‘criminal’ how they let that happen.
Versus…
They are ‘criminals’ for letting that happen.
See the difference?
WTKTT,
I am posting this “Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes’ reply up top due to impending space constraints on your thread below.
I am citing from “Decision Making Under Uncertain and Risky Situations by M. T. Taghavifard,
K. Khalili Damghani, and R. Tavakkoli Moghaddam and the Society of Actuaries”
C:\Users\Owner\AppData\Local\temp\mono-2009-m-as09-1-damghani-2.pdf
If the link does not work, then copy and paste the title and author and search for it. It is well worth reading if you are interested in some of the vagaries of Decision Making.
“In deterministic models, a good decision is judged by the outcome alone. However, in
probabilistic models, the decision maker is concerned not only with the outcome value but
also with the amount of risk each decision carries. As an example of deterministic versus
probabilistic models, consider the past and the future. Nothing we can do can change the past,
but everything we do influences and changes the future, although the future has an element of
uncertainty.” However, the future of the GMHS while in their perfectly good Safety Zone was fairly predictable. All they had to do was “hunker and be safe.” There was NO LOGICAL reason to leave when they did.
“Decision makers often face a severe lack of information.” GMHS did NOT have” a severe lack of information.” They had ALL the information they need to stay in the “good black.”
“There are different types of decision models that help to analyze the different scenarios. Depending on the amount and degree of knowledge we have, the three most widely used types are:
• Decision making under pure uncertainty
• Decision making under risk
• Decision making by buying information (pushing the problem towards the
deterministic “pole”)”
“In decision making under pure uncertainty, the decision maker has absolutely no knowledge, not even about the likelihood of occurrence for any state of nature. In such situations, the decision maker’s behavior is purely based on his/her attitude toward the unknown (footnote omitted). Some of these behaviors are optimistic, pessimistic and least regret, among others.”
Clearly, the GMHS did NOT fall into the “Decision Making Under Pure Uncertainty” category. because they had ALL the information they needed to stay in the safe “good black.”
“Decision Making Under Risk”
“Risk implies a degree of uncertainty and an inability to fully control the outcomes or
consequences of such an action. Risk or the elimination of risk is an effort that managers
employ. However, in some instances the elimination of one risk may increase some other
risks. Effective handling of a risk requires its assessment and its subsequent impact on the
decision process. The decision process allows the decision-maker to evaluate alternative
strategies prior to making any decision. The process is as follows:
“1) The problem is defined and all feasible alternatives are considered. The possible outcomes for each alternative are evaluated.
2) Outcomes are discussed based on their monetary payoffs or net gain in reference to assets or time.
3) Various uncertainties are quantified in terms of probabilities.
4) The quality of the optimal strategy depends upon the quality of the judgments. The decision maker should identify and examine the sensitivity of the optimal strategy with respect to the crucial factors”
The GMHS were CLEARLY in the “Decision Making Under Risk” category. HOWEVER, it appears that they did NOT properly (1) “define the problem” and did NOT consider all the :feasible alternatives” and. ALL “possible outcomes for each alternative” were NOT properly evaluated. It appears that the GMHS also did NOT adequately (2) discuss their net gain (making it to the BSR ahead of the clearly visible and clearly predictable flaming front) “in reference to time.” It appears that the GMHS did NOT adequately (3) discuss and/or quantify the “various uncertainties … in terms of probabilities.” And finally it appears that the GMHS did NOT (4) discuss “the quality of the optimal strategy [dependent] upon the quality of the judgments.” Otherwise they would have stayed put in their perfectly adequate Safety one. And it apprears that the GMHS “decision maker[s] did NOT identify and examine the sensitivity of the optimal strategy with respect to the crucial factors.”
“Concusion”
“Most people often make choices out of habit or tradition, without going through the decision making process steps systematically. Decisions may be made under social pressure or time constraints that interfere with a careful consideration of the options and consequences. Decisions may be influenced by one’s emotional state at the time a decision is made. When people lack adequate information or skills, they may make less than optimal decisions. Even when or if people have time and information, they often do a poor job of understanding the probabilities of consequences. Even when they know the statistics; they are more likely to rely on personal experience than on information about probabilities. The fundamental concerns of decision making are combining information about probability with information about desires and interests.”
So, the GMHS supervisors. I allege made bad decisions out of habit, “without going through the decision making process steps systematically” and without following the WFF standards of LCES and the Ten Standard Fire Orders and the guidelines under the 18 Watch Out Situations. I allege that the research paper conclusion in the above paragraph fits quite accurately in describing why things happened they way they did that day on 30 June 2013. Bad Decisions with Prior Good Outcomes.
**
** FIRST DOZER ARRIVED SUNDAY MORNING WITH ‘TWO’ PEOPLE?
From Gary Cordes’ official Yarnell Unit Log that wasn’t released until February of 2014…
Page 29 of the 51 page PDF file…
——————————————————–
6/30 – 8:45 AM – Dozer arrived – started THEM to work after briefing on Sesame Street.
——————————————————–
Notice that Cordes specifically uses the word THEM ( plural ).
This would indicate that when the dozer first arrived from May Machinery that morning… it came with at least TWO people.
It was only 8:45 AM and Blue Ridge hadn’t even arrived in Yarnell yet… and BR Hotshot Cory Ball did not relieve Cordes as DOZB until two hours later… circa 10:45 AM.
This could be way off the mark but. Cordes could have meant he put Hernandez and the dozer to work. We do not see any other person in the dozer in Cory Ball’s photos. And Trew himself was the HEQB.
Just a thought.
It’s NOT HERNANDEZ, as I painstakingly spent a day or so to ferret out.
Joe Hernandez, Captain of the Groom Creek Fire Department, assigned to be HEQB(T), did not make it to the fire, according to his Facebook page, because he couldn’t “get covered,” i.e. I think he couldn’t get someone to back him up on his home turf.
We really need to correct this name confusion.
We have no surname for Justin, who, apparently, was the dozer operator.
And Trew was never the HEQB. Ball was, when he got there. But, if you just typod and meant Cordes was being the HEQB (which he was probably qualified to do) that probably was case.
I agree, that Cordes probably meant both the dozer and Justin by “them.” It was neither a “him” or an “it” being put to work. It was a “them.”
Sorry, I meant ball not trew
I know. You’re forgiven. On both counts.
Have a great day!
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 6, 2014 at 9:00 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I agree, that Cordes probably meant both the dozer
>> and Justin by “them.” It was neither a “him” or an “it” being
>> put to work. It was a “them.”
Probably so. I just came across this when doing more ‘Cordes’ research and I thought it was interesting. I’ve added it to my own “What we do or don’t know about the DOZER and its OPERATOR” notes file.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Joe Hernandez, Captain of the Groom Creek Fire Department,
>> assigned to be HEQB(T), did not make it to the fire, according
>> to his Facebook page, because he couldn’t “get covered,”
>> i.e. I think he couldn’t get someone to back him up on his home turf.
I agree that’s probably what Joe Hernandez meant by ‘covered’… and is the reason why he couldn’t make it there on Sunday.
What’s still odd is that there is no corresponding ‘cancel’ notice for his order for any reason ( as we see with some others when they learn they can’t fulfill the order ). I also see no corresponding re-order to try and replace him.
I think that means he just ‘blew it off’ and just didn’t bother to show up OR tell anyone he wasn’t coming.
Probably ANOTHER interview that never happened… but SHOULD have.
WTKTT you believe the first dozer on scene on 6/30 was not a Yavapai County resource? I disagree thoroughly. I base this on looking at Shumate requesting a local dozer, on Denny (the Yavapai County Emergency Coord.) telling dispatch the first dozer on scene was…….and the second dozer on scene was……, the dozer Ball refers working with is a T1 dozer (May’s is a T2). Also the dozer Ball speaks of, didn’t have an angled blade which could also mean this dozer wasn’t used to fighting fire. And besides all that, look at the resource orders. E-39 and E-46 are for the dozer and the transport. How is a heavy equipment resource going to be tying in with Cordes at 0845 on 6/30 when he wasn’t ordered until 1208? I recognize resources moved without resource orders on YHF, but not heavy equipment or contractors. The heavy equipment most likely to move without a resource order on the YHF would be LOCAL and county associated. There were two county dozers assigned to the fire based on the 209’s and Denny’s reference to sending two Yavapai County dozers, but only one resource order assigned.
Copy that. Consider my comment that “when the dozer arrived from May Machinery” to be a brain fart.
I checked my own notes again on this and you are RIGHT.
There is NO actual (public) evidence that the FIRST dozer that arrived in Yarnell that morning came from May Machinery ( at least I don’t think there is ).
There is ONLY some definite proof that the SECOND dozer that arrived later that afternoon came from ‘May Machinery’.
So the mystery surrounding this critical ‘first dozer’ ( and its operator ) actually deepens.
It would appear that we really don’t even have any frickin’ idea WHERE this dozer actually came from… much less exactly WHO came with it.
It is still astounding to me that as important as that DOZER was to EVERYTHING that was happening that day on that south side of the fire… and how it was influencing the ‘narrative’ itself… that TWO sets of investigators would have NOT had this all figured out even BEFORE they started to interview anyone.
**
** PROOF THAT SPGS1 GARY CORDES WAS USING
** HIS CELLPHONE ON JUNE 30, 2013
This was brought up from a thread down below.
>> On December 5, 2014 at 10:09 am, WTKTT said…
>>
>> ( SNIP )
>>
>> Cordes hadn’t heard from Frisby yet about Blue Ridge already going into
>> ‘evacuation mode’ out there on the Cutover Trail… so Cordes might have
>> still been thinking… “I still need Blue Ridge out there finishing that Cutover
>> Trail… but I’m gonna need more Hotshots to improve the Dozer line that
>> Ball is scouting and gonna cut for me down there to protect Glen Ilah”.
>>
>> Maybe that’s when Cordes himself made contact with Eric Marsh and
>> said… “Paul didn’t know what the plan was here. Blue Ridge is already
>> doing something important. We could REALLY use you guys for the other
>> project which is gonna try to hook up with the Boulder Springs Ranch
>> area. Can you get there?”
>>
>> We KNOW that Eric Marsh’s cellphone survived the fire.
>>
>> Amanda Marsh has said (publicly) that she has it now.
>> It never seemed to have entered the official ‘chain of evidence’.
>> Having it examined for evidence was ALWAYS what should have
>> happened… but something tells me there’s little chance of that
>> now. His cellphone records COULD still be obtained without his
>> widow’s permission, however, since Marsh was being PAID a
>> stipend for the cellphone by his employer, the City of Prescott.
>>
>> But… it’s also amazing to me that no set of investigators ever
>> requested Gary Cordes’ cellphone records.
Just for the ‘record’…
Gary Cordes himself testified ( to ADOSH ) that he DID, in fact, have a cellphone with him on Sunday, June 30, 2013… and that he was USING it…
From page 32 of SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview on 9/11/13…
ADOSH investigators were asking Cordes about the ‘Weather Alert(s)’. and if he ‘heard them’.
Q2 = Dave Larsen ( WFA / ADOSH contractor ) ( Rest in Peace )
A = SPGS1 Gary Cordes
———————————————————————————
1391 Q2: Who, (unintelligible) who uh, who, who made the announcement?
1392
1393 A: Um, you know, I’m not sure who had made the original announcement, but I
1394 do know that, that ops had checked, had called around to make sure we all
1395 had, had heard it. I’m not sure if it was an FBAN or who, who had actually
1396 made the, the um, um, the announcement over the radio, but we did hear. And
1397 I was thinking that was towards um, that was somewhere around two
1398 o’clockish, somewhere in that timeframe. Um, because I, I do remember
1399 talking to uh, Todd Able on the uh, Ops Able on the uh, cell phone and, and
1400 he asked me again if I had heard that. So I’m guessing it was somewhere in
1401 that timeframe.
—————————————————————————————
Key sentence…
“I do remember talking to uh, Todd Able on the uh, Ops Able on the uh, cell phone…”
This is the ONLY place in either Gary Cordes’ Unit Log or any of his interviews where he actually admits he DID have cellphone with him in Yarnell… and that he WAS using to talk to others that day. There is NO evidence ( at this time ) that he ever called Eric Marsh with it… but we now know that was certainly possible.
When I was going back over, and over and over again, Cordes’ interview etc., looking for SOME “hook” into the possibility of him asking Eric/Granite Mountain to come down to town, during that 3:30-ish to 4:10-ish framework, I could find absolutely nothing except how he couldn’t communicated directly with Eric, and had to, instead, relay his communications w/Eric via Frisby.
OK to save myself brain agony and to spare confusion I’ll just pop that interview conversation in here:
“I was trying
1306 to get a hold of Eric and this is about the time, right about this time, in this
1307 1445 to 50 timeframe is when I was having a radio problem with my King
1308 radio. My transmissions weren’t getting out. I had a problem with my, uh, the
1309 switch to my mike went out and uh, so I had to switch over to a Motorola, it
1310 was a mobile unit mounted in my truck. Um, I lost, because of that, the group
1311 programming that I had I lost air to ground. I had all the other Tacs and the
1312 command channel and I just lost the air to ground frequency. Um, but during
1313 that timeframe when I was having radio problems, I was trying to get a hold of
1314 alpha and ask them, because I had heard that, that the fire had crossed the
1315 dozer line by the grade, by, well by the – it had crossed the dozer line so I
1316 then, I couldn’t get through to Eric direct so I got through to, to Blue Ridge,
1317 asked where, and I heard that uh, Eric announced that it had crossed by the
1318 grater. So that was that area that hadn’t been improved uh, is where it popped
1319 through.
1320
1321 Q2: So that message came from Eric?
1322
1323 A: That came from Eric, I believe, um, or I heard it direct from Eric and, and then
1324 Blue Ridge may have relayed it back to me but I did, I remember hearing it
1325 from, from Eric.”
“1450 Q1: …you said you were having some radio trouble and, and at some point you
1451 lost your air to ground, prior, prior to losing your air to ground, were you able
1452 to hear air Tac and, and uh, if so, what were you hearing from air Tac?
1453
1454 A: Yeah, what I had actually heard, and that’s what I was touching on a little bit
1455 earlier, but I didn’t wanna get too, too far into it, ‘cause I’m not sure of the
1456 timeframe and what had actually occurred, but I did hear Eric say that he was,
1457 he was headed to his pre-designated safety zone. And, and so my assumption
1458 was that he was headed to the um, to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
1459
1460 Q1: So that was your assumption is that he was going to the Boulder Springs
1461 Ranch and not the black, is that right?
1462
1463 A: Yeah, exactly.
1464
1465 Q1: Um, okay.
1466
1467 A: And I was…
1468
1469 Q1: But you don’t know what that time frame might’ve been or…
1470
1471 A: No, that’s what I was trying, that’s what I was trying to fi – you know, jumble
1472 that in to what I had here and I’m not really sure, um, when that actually
1473 happened and how that correlated with him letting me know that it had
1474 crossed the dozer line, uh, by the grater. So I’m not sure which came first.
1475
1476 Q1: Okay, so then somewhere in there he, and he actually called you rather than
1477 somebody else…
1478
1479 A. No, he did not call me, he, he made the announcement to air attack on air to
1480 ground.
1481
1482 Q1: Oh.
1483
1484 A: That, that he was going to the pre-designated safety zone.
1485
1486 Q1: And, and he told air attack that it had crossed the dozer line as well?
1487
1488 A: He, uh that, that transmission, I believe, came, I was trying to get that
1489 information and, and I believe I heard it direct from Eric. I was unable to hook
1490 up with him and I was, and I was communicating through Blue Ridge trying
1491 to get that information from Blue Ridge and then I heard it, when he was
1492 answering Blue Ridge, I heard it direct from…
1493
1494 Q1: (Unintelligible)
1495
1496 A: …from Eric. Right. That it has crossed by the grater.
1497
1498 Q1: Uh, he tells air attack that he’s going to his designated, pre-designated safety
1499 zone…
1500
1501 A: Right.”
“Q1: And so your assumption is…
1508
1509 A: He had plenty of time to get there and, and he was headed to the Boulder
1510 Springs Ranch.
1511
1512 Q1: Okay.
1513
1514 Q2: Did he say that on air attack, air to ground, the air attack…
1515
1516 A: I’m sorry, air to ground, he said it to air attack, yes.”
Nothing in this sounds, to me, as if he was even thinking about “The Cordes Plan” at this point.
This conversation actually started out with his describing him ordering the crews in his area to start getting ready to get out at around 3:50. There was a question/conversation about whether Eric heard that. And he wasn’t sure. Which goes into the conversation I just pasted above.
This is all in the context of the conversation he was having with Musser:
“Q2: Okay. Uh, did you um, I wanted to go back to 1545, Ops Messer and you
1357 discussed options. Uh, what were the options?
1358
1359 A: Basically we just discussed where we thought this was going and how, how
1360 we needed to play it and I told him I didn’t have the resources, we were gonna
1361 need to start you know, pulsing some resources over to us to support this.
1362 Um, also I was gonna need some, obviously need some uh, air support to start,
1363 start working that. Uh, we knew once it hit that ridge line that we’re gonna be
1364 in trouble, ‘cause there was a lot of homes that were speckled all around in
1365 that, in that area. So it was basically, you know, uh, assist with the evacuation
1366 uh, try to get this thing painted up a little bit with some air, air support and uh,
1367 start pulsing us some, some resources down.”
ALL of this happens AFTER Musser asked Eric/Granite Mountain if they were committed to the ridge and they said yes. I agree with WTKTT that Musser made that call from his truck as he was driving over to meet Cordes, not after he got there.
And, yeah, he doesn’t say anything about using his cellphone in all that. Although it would make sense, if he REALLY wanted to talk directly with Eric during that time when he was having such trouble communicating with him via the radio.
I just really don’t think he had all that much of a “Plan” for putting that dozer line in from Glen Ilah to Boulder Springs Ranch in his mind at that point.
I’m beginning to think he started thinking about that AFTER he heard that Eric/Granite Mountain were headed to their “Predetermined Safety Zone.” Which HE interpreted as Boulder Springs Ranch, but Blue Ridge didn’t. Once he added that “frame” to his “situational awareness,” THEN he started thinking, “Hmmmmmmm what if………??”
Although, THIS…..
1359 A: Basically we just discussed where we thought this was going and how, how
1360 we needed to play it and I told him I didn’t have the resources, we were gonna
1361 need to start you know, pulsing some resources over to us to support this.
1362 Um, also I was gonna need some, obviously need some uh, air support to start,
1363 start working that” …
MIGHT have included a quick draft “scratching out” of some kind of idea that clearing something around the top of Glen Ilah off that road toward the southwest might help. But I don’t think it was a PLAN yet. But it might have been formulating in his mind before he heard Eric/Granite Mountain were headed toward their “pre-determined safety zone,” and then he REALLY started thinking about it.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I don’t think it was a PLAN yet.
>>
>> But it might have been formulating in his mind before he heard
>> Eric/Granite Mountain were headed toward their “pre-determined
>> safety zone,” and then he REALLY started thinking about it.
Agree.
However… it most DEFINITELY was a fully formulated PLAN ( and not just a mental musing ) by the time he actually TOLD Cory Ball to start ‘scouting it out’ down there at the west end of Glen Ilah.
Problem is… we still don’t know exactly WHEN that happened.
Cory Ball’s own Unit Log isn’t much help there. His entry about being TOLD by Cordes to start this ‘scouting operation’ comes shortly after Ball’s own 1600 ( 4:00 PM ) notation in his logs… but even that entry he makes at that time about ‘BRIHC disengaging to Safety Zone’ seems a bit off…. unless what he really meant there was simply BRIHC ‘disengaging’ from the Cutover Trail and heading back to the Youth Camp ( and not fully evac to RHR yet ).
There also really aren’t any REDACTED parts of Ball’s Log right at that point that would put the order from Cordes to ‘start scouting’ into any better of a timeframe.
For the sake of completeness… here ( again ) is that entire section from Cory Ball’s Unit Log covering this time when Cordes gave him the ORDER to start his ‘scouting mission’…
EMPHASIS is MINE…
——————————————————————————
1600: BRIHC disengaging to safety zone ( Ranch House Restaurant )
BRIHC one ( Brian Frisby ) informs Structure Group One ( Gary Cordes )
they are pushing engines everyone out of subdivision.
(XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX – Entire next line REDACTED )
Structure group one assigns me and ONE OTHER to locate possibility
of DOZER LINE to southwest of Yarnell.
Acquire ATV: travel into ( Glen Ilah ) subdivision back to DOZER LINE.
Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in ( Glen Ilah ) subdivision.
Notify structure group one ( Gary Cordes ) about fire and structures on
corner of manzanita and lockwood. ( XXXXXXX – Rest of line REDACTED )
(XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX – Entire next line REDACTED )
Started evacuations of ( Glen Ilah ) subdivision.
Helitanker drops water near manzanita junction.
Inquiry about helitanker availablity.
Told there are other priorities ( XXXXXXXXX – Rest of line REDACTED ).
( XXXXXXX – Next line REDACTED ).
Evacuations for the next couple of hours.
———————————————————————————-
There is, in fact, an entire line of his Log that is fully REDACTED just prior to his entry about the order from Cordes to start ‘scouting’… but I actually doubt that line has any more references to the ‘scouting mission’ ( or TIMES ) in it.
That REDACTED line would seem to be more information about the line ABOVE it about ‘pushing engines out of subdivision’.
That REDACTED line is, however, ‘all by itself’ with a blank line of separation in the log above and below it… so it really could have been about anything.
Cordes was still a little confused about times… but he seemed to say he became FULLY aware ( and FULLY understood ) that Marsh would be “heading to his pre-deterimed Safety Zone” ( Boulder Springs Ranch ) just shortly after Eric Marsh was informing fire command that the fireline had blown through “the dozer line”. That would have been shortly after Brendan left his lookout mound and just after the MacKenzie videos.
OR… was Cordes also mis-reporting this and what he really meant was that he was sure Marsh would be heading to the BSR after that radio report from Marsh about the fire blowing through the RETARDANT line… and not the DOZER line?
That would put Cordes’ awareness that Marsh would be heading to the BSR upt to 15 or 20 minutes earlier than when the fire reached the DOZER line itself.
Bottom line is that, at some point here, doing something to try and make the fire ‘skirt around’ Glen Ilah DID become a bona-fide PLAN… and he was ‘executing’ on that plan and having Ball ‘scout it out’. Whether this came out of his conversations with Musser… or Cordes came up with this PLAN on his own… we still don’t know.
NEITHER Musser NOR Cordes say ANYTHING in ANY of their interviews about this PLAN or even anything about any ‘thoughts’ of protecting Glen Ilah. I still think that is VERY odd.
My interpretation of:
“we discussed how we needed to play it”, is >’we discussed a plan’. This interpretation is further supported by, “I told him I didn’t have the resources” (for the plan).
“pulsing some resources over to us to support this.”,> indicates the need to bump resources for this (this=the plan).
“Um, also I was gonna need some, obviously need some uh, air support to start,
1363 start working that” (that=the plan).
Bottom line: “how we needed to play it” indicated they had come up with a specific plan, because the statements that followed, which I noted above, all revolved around the pulses and minuses of putting that plan into action
Copy that.
The ‘new videos’ that were recently released really HAVE caused us to go back and look at ALL of this again ( as new evidence will do ).
Based on what you are pointing out above… it really IS possible that even the mysterious ( and still actually unverified ) radio call from Eric Marsh to ‘Bravo 33’ about… “That’s it… that’s where we want the retardant” *might* have had something to do with all this.
>> FIRE20++ wrote…
>>
>> “Um, also I was gonna need some, obviously need
>> some uh, air support to start, start working that” (that=the plan).
So if ‘the plan’ now also INCLUDED that ‘scouting mission’ Cordes had already given to Cory Ball.. .then Cordes’ thinking about ‘Air Support’ might have also been directly related to that possible ’emergency dozer push’ that he thought might be coming together down there from the south end of the Sesame area ( where the dozer loboy was ) on over towards the Boulder Springs Ranch cattle pond… and then (perhaps) connecting with the rock outcrops of the Boulder Springs Ranch itself.
So if that WAS the plan… and Eric Marsh himself was aware that WAS the plan… Marsh’s (suppposed) statement about “That’s it…. that’s where we need the retardant” might be even more directly related to this “emergency dozer push near the BSR” than even previously thought.
It really is more important now than it has ever been to see Marsh’s, Musser’s and Cordes’ cell phone records.
This ENTIRE ‘plan’ for some kind of ’emergency dozer push’ there near the Boulder Springs Ranch ( and GM’s participation in that ) might have been totally formulated and discussed via just face-to-face conversations between Musser and Cordes and then cellphone communications with Eric Marsh and/or the other ‘participants’.
The Basic problem with a line constructed north of Glen Isla was simple as I stated a couple of days ago.
In order to be effective it needed to be a minimum 30 Feet wide
a hand crew would take with a cat at least 6 to 8 hours and you would need rancor points on both ends to keep the fire from running around the line possibly Hwy 89.
As Marti has said the team was chasing the fire and left in the dust
or they were really 12 plus hours behind the actual burning and spared.
Even if the would have attempted to build this supposed line starting at 1300 they would have never tied in the ends or completed it by 1700 there was just not enough time based on the fuel and line construction rates.
This so called plan was so far behind the power curve that it is laughable. If this was a plan then the IC should never have been certified or running a fire.
He was not even in a position to look at the area he was proposing to build this line if he had been he would have abandoned it immediately . It was just plain way to late.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 6, 2014 at 5:01 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> This so called plan was so far behind the
>> power curve that it is laughable. If this was
>> a plan then the IC should never have been
>> certified or running a fire.
There WAS no ‘IC running the fire’.
There really wasn’t.
Roy Hall was CLUELESS and NOT ENGAGED in what was happening all day long. The only evidence we have in ALL of this evidence that has been made available as to what IC Roy Hall was doing all day was just thinking about TOMORROW.
He was totally absorbed in ‘kicking the fire up to another Incident Level’ and making all the phone calls and shit to do THAT rather than actually making sure the fire that was burning THAT DAY was actually being taken care of.
It would appear that the only time Roy Hall ever even came out of the principal’s office at the Model Creek School and/or even looked out the window at the fire he was hired to fight is when it almost burned his own ass out of his own ICP.
Now look at SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ situation.
Not only was he SPGS1 on a fire that basically had a non-existent IC ( or any action plan )… Cordes also had NO DIVISION SUPERVISOR in his area.
The one who was SUPPOSED to be there helping him ( Rance Marquez ) had just ‘disappeared’ around NOON and nobody knew where he was.
And to top it all off… a guy who is now SPGS1 ( and had already been up all night and might have been sleepless for up to 30 ( THIRTY ) hours by late afternoon Sunday ) told the ADOSH investigators he in now way even considered HIMSELF to be a ‘Structure Protection Specialist’.
So THIS is now the guy who is supposed to suddenly be some kind of WFF ‘expert’ as well… and be deciding where dozer lines should be and what Hotshot crews ( both FEDERALLY sanctioned and one fully FEDERALLY owned ) should be doing and WHERE they should be doing it?
Give me a break.
All the reasons for NOT even trying to build some dozer line that you give up above are VALID… based on YOUR experience and YOUR knowledge…
…but there really is no evidence this Gary Cordes guy had anything even remotely NEAR that kind of KNOWLEDGE or EXPERIENCE to be making those kinds of decisions.
Yet… there he was… tired, sleepless, overworked, under-qualified… and making critical decisions with no direct supervision from either a qualified DIVS or even an IC.
All he got near the time things were already hitting the fan was some guy who had just been ‘Planning OPS’ most of the day and who had only just recently jumped into the fire and wasn’t even up to speed on where any of the resources were.
He was not even in a position to look at the area he was proposing to build this line if he had been he would have abandoned it immediately . It was just plain way to late.
Typo above… I forgot to ‘bracket’ the last paragraph which was actually one of Mr. Powers’ comments.
Last paragraph above should have looked like this…
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> He was not even in a position to look at
>> the area he was proposing to build this
>> line if he had been he would have
>> abandoned it immediately It was
>> just plain way to late.
He was way over his head by then… and desperate.
At the very beginning of Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview is where he told the investigators he didn’t even consider HIMSELF to be a ‘Structure Protection Specialist’.
The only things Gary Cordes told ADOSH he had on his ‘red card’ was Strike Team Engine Task Force Leader, Occasional DIVS, B-Sawyer, Engine Boss, Paramedic.
That’s it.
Page 1 of Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
————————————————–
Q=Bruce Hanna
Q1=Barry Hicks
Q2=Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
Q3=Brett Steurer
A=Gary Cordes
————————————————–
Q: Okay. So Chief Cordes, how long have you worked for the Central Yavapai Fire District?
A: I’m in my 24th year uh, which I will hit my 24th anniversary November 13th23 …
Q: Okay.
A: …of this year.
Q: And the current position is?
A: I’m a Battalion Chief…
Q: Battalion Chief.
A: …and I’m our, our training Chief.
Q: Okay.
A: That’s my current position.
Q: Okay. And what kind of uh, can you give us a little synopsis of your history, or you career in firefighting and any special training or certifications that you hold?
A: Um, I’ve been in the fire service a total of 29 years. Um, I’m, I’m a paramedic um, I worked my way up through the ranks. Um, a myriad, I hold over 55 different certificates for training. Um, uh primarily uh, as far as related to the wildland aspect it’s only been 24 years of my career that I’ve been involved in that, ever since coming to Central Yavapai, ‘cause we are in the urban interface and, and I’ve worked my way up to the level of division sup, um, over the years.
Q: Okay. And you have a lot of different red card, red card certifications?
A: I have a few red card certifications, yeah.
Q: Okay. Uh, Barry, do you need to know any of that or (Dave)?
Q1: Uh yeah, that’d help if we could hear it.
A: Um, I’m uh, Strike Team Engine Task Force leader and Divs… and I have uh, B-Sawyer as well. It’s been awhile since I’ve looked at it. Engine boss, and paramedic.
Q2: Hey Gary, I was just wondering you – I’m gonna presume that you have a structure uh, group specialist or however you got that on your red track?
A: No, I’m not a structure group specialist. However, most of the division work I do is as a structured group, um, doing structure protection. But I’m NOT a specialist.
————————————————–
Basically an Engine person—-Strike Team Leader
Maybe only a DIVS. Trainee with his experience
Not a wild land Fire complete background.
from all that way out of his comfort level.
Those are the kind of overhead that HS Superintendents tend to work around or ignore when thins go to hell.
He may have had the ability to give Marsh a praise on a good job so Marsh tried to please???
Just my observation but plausible?????
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-195878
As Calvin Posted his remark to sonny
Bob Powers: Thanks for your reply and I immediately did send an E mail to the EPA. It was a long one and included photos of the huge drop that lies parallel to Yarnell. Those people are good at their work and can find out if the excessive deaths might be related to the fire retardant or other factors. I suspect they would want to know the environmental impact as well. We likely have cyanide in the area so maybe they will look into that as well.
We will keep you posted.
I had some thoughts last night considering the magnitude of this Yarnell Fire. This morning after contemplating Wants to Know the Truth’s last post, I sense how well all of you that have been on top of this have proven that there is plenty reason for exposing all possible evidence and leads to the events that lead up to the deaths of 19 young men and the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill fire that has affected the lives of so many here in this small peaceful community. Thirty five deaths and more we haven’t yet learned of since the fire certainly can be at least partially attributed to the fire, and in some cases, I believe fully attributed to the fire. Attempted suicide, possible full suicice, and many folks having to leave their homes and many disgusted and leaving the area completely, not to mention local division of residents, some angered because of the inequality of the distribution of funds to people wanting to stay and rebuild. The dynamics of this thing keeps people here on edge and I suspect will for years to come.
There are some questions I want to ask of our learned people–attorneys watching this site and federal officers most likely will have answers that I am certain more than just myself want to know. I don’t know about you, but if you want to get my attention show me an FBI badge, or a Marshalls badge and I will want to hear your say. I do know the people on this site are doing a great job of analyzing the limited information they have. Would it not be great if some of our federal agent friends could be assigned to gather additional information that is there but yet to be revealed publicly?
Joy and I have both been chastised for doing our best to get this information and get it to the people such as are on this site and have those wonderful analytical skills that collectively have been slowly eating away the white wash to expose the actual sequence of disaster as it unfolded. Now I propose these questions:
1) What are the necessary requirements for an FBI investigation into the deaths of these men?.
2) What are the requirements to interest the Environmental Protection Agency to investigate the area for toxins, possible contamination by the retardants, and possible cyanide dumps and other chemical dumps in the area that would have been dispersed due to the fire?
3) Would the fact that more than 35 deaths of the locals in less than a thousand residents factor into such an investigation–all these since the short time since June 30, 2013?
4)Do any of you knowledgeable or learned persons feel this is a prudent action to get outside investigators involved?
5) What could evidence would we need to present to federal agencies to get their attention?
6) Often I do not know even the questions to ask. What questions should I add to the above?
Joy and I have received some harassment from various local authorities and it is told us because they are receiving flack from certain people on our involvement and helps we are doing to get at the facts of the fire. We are warned to not go into that area, yet legally we have every right to go where we go –Joy is a stickler to rules and order–me I go along but in such a wild area I do not see the point of why we should not hike concerned people, loved ones, fire fighters, and others who want to know what happened and why. We won’t quit as long as we are legal, no will we stop getting evidence such as photos where we can legally do so. We do realize that not everyone appreciates our diligence–and sometimes I wonder why. Sticking our heads in the sand will not do in this situation–so we will continue as best we can.
Sonny
First I would get info on the Retardant Chemical’s you are concerned about.
Second contact the local EPA and see if they have any knowledge that they could investigate
I have used them here and they were very receptive to checking out a problem.
I Had diesel in the canal that my horses water out of they found the source and took action.
third I would talk to the County Commissioners and see if there is a concern over the number of deaths in the area.
Or even the local city councils/Mayors.
Bob Powers, Sonny is doing all that right now—
let you know what they reply.
Bob Powers, you have been interviewed with John Dougherty and as we have– John ought to personally interview Elizabeth and Calvin–that would clear up the issue of and confusion concerning whether they are the same or different people. It would also bring to front where the expertise in their respective fields can help to uncover this dark veil covering the truth of what went down to kill 19 young men that day.
I do believe he is discouraged with Elizabeth and no longer discussing any thing with her.
On the topic of people on here John has left that alone and not commented on who is who or how many aliases they have. As he has said nothing about the charges of aliases for RTS which I know are false.
Elizabeth/Calvin have an agenda that tends to make false statements to achieve some goal at times the questions are good but the attacks are a worthless endeavor to attack peoples reputations. to negate there information.
I’ll leave it there………….
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 5, 2014 AT 6:56 AM
“Elizabeth is gonna love this. Remember when, a gazillion months ago we spent days arguing with her because she was so sure Musser was checking on GM’s availability “for Gary Cordes” and we were so sure that most likely wasn’t the case?”
Why, Marti, are you finally admitting that I was right and that you are sorry that folks on this board keep attacking me, making horrible (and untrue) statements about me, etc.? 😉 🙂 🙂 (I am teasing you in good fun, of course, Marti.)
I continue to have or have access to all sorts of YHF-related information that folks on this board seem not to have access to, and I try to share that information when I can with folks on my e-mail list (if you want to be on it, just e-mail me at [email protected]), but sometimes I forget what I sent to whom. At the start of this whole process, I tried to share some of my information with John Dougherty or Bill Gabbert, so that they could then share it publicly with all of you as they saw fit, but over the past several months, John Dougherty seems to have been out of pocket (and maybe out of the country), so I have not always gotten responses to my e-mails to him, so I largely stopped reaching out regularly to share intel with him.
For example, with the Aaron Hulburd and other videos that the Arizona Forestry folks only recently posted on the internet, some of us either HAD those videos, had versions of them, or had access to them for months before it appears that JD finally did. We just weren’t in a position to share, or we weren’t comfortable sharing, or we TRIED to share and did not hear back. So, in short, when I state something as fact or I state that I am pretty certain of something, unless I specify otherwise, you can generally be pretty sure that I have the raw material (e.g. something more reliable than just statements in the SAIT or some such) to back up what I am saying.
Anyway, thanks for your acknowledgment, Marti. I might not know a lot about wildland firefighting tactics, I might not know a lot about professional photography, and I might not know a lot about BV, the Illuminati, and Dry Slots, but I know a lot about getting and compiling detailed, accurate information and conducting solid investigations under dicey conditions. Different people have different skill sets. 🙂
And I am glad to hear, Marti, that your daughter’s Friendsgiving went well! Did you host it at your home? If so, that had to be lots of fun, and I envy you.
Elizabeth—REALLY?????
You Had The Videos, had versions of them or had access to them.??????
You are really impressed with your self aren’t you???
In November you told every one after my post there were no 43 min. of videos that were going to be released gust before they were and made you the fool now you had them all the time
Sorry can’t buy that
Especially since all your attack on RTS just went backwards on you by using a name that gave you testimony that you fabricated to slander RTS. And Calvin followed up on it
I thank Ken straightened that out over on your BLOG. Ken Jordan never gave you any information but you printed his name as if he confirmed your attack on RTS.
And then you used unconfirmed sources to justify the Total Fabrications.
Elizabeth You had no idea of the 21 videos that were released or there content.
Just more fabrication for your EGO.
And I do not intend to apologize for the Above.
by phone EN did state she had them to me, Bob Powers in the past month or so and I remember being by a pine tree and can probably look at phone records to the date and time.
I think this did happen to MacLean and Neill in the start of the year when their article came out that EN made claim she had source first and there was some discussion on that so what if she did material first before anyone…the concern is how she selectively shares the information versus doing the hard work and purity we see from Marti Reed who takes any of the hikers information may we believe accounts coming in or not and she takes the love, time and energy to organize it a.s.a.p. for the PUBLIC to view all information in dropboxes. As for JD, he is a very busy man yet any STRONG leads he has received I have seen him do an immediate follow up and I am very proud of his continued efforts. To lay claim you had it before than simply take a photo of envelope with date stamped and place a drop box way for the public to see and let the public figure it out because we know when JD got his-
simple. No big deal either way. Information IS information no matter who is first out…
Joy, thank you for remembering, and thank you for your kind words!! 🙂 🙂 I have bent over backward to share whatever I get. When John Maclean and Holly Neill posted their essay, they linked to the videos that I had spent HOURS posting. I have never asked for thanks from John or Holly or anyone. I did it because it was the right thing to do. So THANK YOU, Joy, for remembering how I had always, always devoted hours upon hours and a bunch of money to share whatever I could, and thank you for your kudos. I have worked so hard, and I am grateful for you remembering, Joy. Thank you! Take care.
It dose not have any thing to do with who had what first it has to do with making clams about having things that she never ever had.
Like e 21 videos.
that were under raps with the FS Feds. and not released to any one until the requests were filed by the State and others JD included.
The Videos were released on the 7th of November.
Elizabeth had nothing before then.
If after what Calvin and Elizabeth Joked about Tex and drinking to much Whisky ———I am surprised you are still happy with either
of them. But that’s your choice……..
Bob
We all know it has been a bad week for you here at IM But stating things that are untrue, surely wont help you.
No one said one word about whiskey, until you just said it. Stop sensationalizing everything and trying to stir up shit.
LOL
OK my misstatement
SO YOU SAID
Ok Tex
I understand You had to much to drink and you were Plastered.
And Elizabeth thought it was funny
GO TO HELL CALVIN/ELIZABETH
bob
That is not very nice. You need to keep your tantrums in check.
Also. Is that your true colors?
To speak to someone you do not know the way you speak to me, and damn my soul to eternal hellfire?
Wow, atta boy!
Bob continues to attack people here at IM. And he has the audacity to do it from some sort of self appointed moral high ground.
He has questioned my true colors, I guess meaning my character? And then turns around and tells me to go to hell.
How dare you bob? Who do you think you are?
Calvin/Elizabeth
Lets just say I am a better Person than You.
Let me also say The only people I attack or ever have attacked on here is the one and only
Calvin/Elizabeth
You can find nothing in my back ground to question my integrity or my credential’s.
Your Games are not working I have the same information as RTS from other sources here in
R4 and they have told me the same thing Marsh was reckless Bad Decisions with Good out comes so trying to silence RTS will not change the facts.
Bad Safety Practices create Bad safety decisions. Gloves Sleeves rolled up taking a sick crewman to a fire assigning him as a lookout. McDonough’s own statements about
The 10 standard orders.
Or the total disregard for LCES a move down hill into a death trap. Moving out of the best safety Zone on the fire for what reason?
Putting an entire Crew at risk for what reason?
No reasons in here have ever been good enough to Risk a crew’s movement in front of a wall of flame to get to some point for some reason except Marsh and his risk to achieve praise. Bad decisions with good out comes or Calculated risks to prove your the best.
King killed half his crew on the Loop fire doing the same thing 2 HS Superintends refused to do what he did and told him not to do it he did it to prove them wrong that was 1966.
Oh and by the way if you have not checked your friends blog which I know you have what you suggested about RTS was just proved totally wrong by some one quoted by Calvin/Elizabeth as his personal statement which he never said so spreading false rumors on here is no what I would call good character.
As far as wild land fire suppression goes you have no clue compared to RTS, Fire20+, TTWARE and myself you are less than a 10% knowledge factor so I will leave it there.
That’s who I know I am and my Morals seem to be a steep above yours
GTH Calvin/Elizabeth.
I had a great week last week by the way seeing the blog of yours given a total Lie check by some one you quoted that very nicely called you story a complete fabrication on the Clear creek fire and showing every one your true colors. Have a nice day
On December 5, 2014 at 3:35 pm Joy A. Collura (me) said … That I can look up time stamp which I did and the phone call with EN was after videos were out but she did still state she had them. I wish I can write like others versus how I do but that was all I was saying and if she wanted to “prove” such than do what Marti Reed does and make a dropbox account and place a photo of the envelope the material was placed in and mailed to her and blur out her address and it shall show the date it was mailed to her so that would tell us the public if her material was received before or after John Dougherty and others. I did not understand why I got a text by EN or a post saying thank you because all I did was let Bob Powers know I did get a call that she had them and this is not the first event—it trails back to the last set of videos when MacLean/Neill did their article and to me I now have learned what FOIA is and is all about so it means anyone can get it so who cares who got theirs first or who downloaded theirs first because in the end just glad more information is out. Shit, if I ever get the final piece to nail this baby I am never going to want people to know I had it “first” but be glad it is finally OUT THERE!
You did not have to thank me. I still am confused by the post myself because I reread what I wrote and I did not get the same message…Bob, you do not have to worry about the comment that the 2 made on Sonny. Just last night he tried to post here to you Bob and he was going to state “Salute to Bob Powers for his good discernment and I am enjoying a good Guiness right now.”
I have known Sonny since I first read his ad 8-17-11 which you all can to on senior match dot com under sonnygilly or sonnyg and I am the desert walker and when Kat asked me to look at her profiles July 2011 it took me almost seven weeks to do and I only did out of boredom one late night at 2am awaiting my husband to get home from work and there was Sonny’s unusual ad. I thought people meet people in person. When I saw he was drawing folks who are looking for papers to be citizens we had our first corresponding on 8-23-11 and it was so nice to talk history, numinastics, politics, religion, guns, desert hikes, caves, rocks/geology, pets, etc….People close to me know I had no intention of meeting this man Sonny and when we went on a hiking adventure west of the Grand Canyon that would begin the start of NEW things to my life…Sonny is not a sot nor a bourbon hound yet there are times when he drinks he knows what it means to its fullest extent and we will ALWAYS clash until the day I pass on there. I do not drink. It is like a smoker and a non-smoker…they allow or tolerate yet in the end if you keep your body pure of those elements you can’t understand it. Yet I get the sweet world and salt world…or fat world…I get when I knock that crap out too I see life different. I do know what we put in our bodies may it be food substance, liquor substance or smoke or dope or pharmaceutical substance it does change your mental views on situations. I do not need a band wagon of thanks yous or recognition that Sonny was plastered but it was fact he stated that and when he was sober he was like why did I Joy do it and post it and yet in my position I avoid escalations and so it was simple as that if I had not he would of said why didn’t I. Bob Powers, anyone can view us the way they choose; freedom but like I said if someone wants to post on IM and it helps bring clarity and not harm to the board and to anyone than they should be allowed here but if they attack and say things then either take it as it is what it is—the source—and move on—but not feed into the rubbish. We very much support all your efforts Bob Powers and Sonny very much so because when he asks things here you are usually first to write him back. Bob, if you know more details to a situation we stand by your side—not 1/2 ass either—we stand by it all the way…anytime we have not met on a topic we discuss it and we agree to disagree end of story and to this date the only thing I have not agreed with is until further proof is shown I just cannot after talking to so many who knew Marsh and my original gut feeling that he would lead those men to their death—their is details and from day one I told EN MY ONLY CONCERN in this was Marsh’s cell records and a select few because IT WILL PROVE ALOT— I PROMISE THAT!
by phone EN did state she had them to me, Bob Powers in the past month or so and I remember being by a pine tree and can probably look at phone records to the date and time.
I think this did happen to MacLean and Neill in the start of the year when their article came out that EN made claim she had source first and there was some discussion on that so what if she did material first before anyone…the concern is how she selectively shares the information versus doing the hard work and purity we see from Marti Reed who takes any of the hikers information may we believe accounts coming in or not and she takes the love, time and energy to organize it a.s.a.p. for the PUBLIC to view all information in dropboxes. As for JD, he is a very busy man yet any STRONG leads he has received I have seen him do an immediate follow up and I am very proud of his continued efforts. To lay claim you had it before than simply take a photo of envelope with date stamped and place a drop box way for the public to see and let the public figure it out because we know when JD got his-
simple. No big deal either way. Information IS information no matter who is first out…
some typos and some how original message showed up after what I typed???
I agree, and, again, I thank you Joy! I appreciate your kind words. Everyone tries to “keep it pure”! I have reached out to JD to send him things or point things out to him, and he is a member of the media, but I am not. JD is busy.
Thank you, again, Joy.
Also to Joy: It was my pleasure to teach you how to make a FOIA or public records request. I am glad that it worked out for you and Sonny, and you are entirely welcome! Feel free to contact me again if you need help.
I say be very aware of the BLACK WIDOW SPIDER and her niceties
You are going on her word with out factual evidence as was asked by WTKTT
It is up to you and Sonny to decide to carried on a conversation with
Elizabeth she has already been proven to have fabricated several
statements with no facts or fabricated information for her own gain
You have your own choices to make .
I only know what I have seen heard read and discussed with Elizabeth over the E-Mails this summer.
I have formed my opinion.
She Has Fabricated Facts to make her look GOOD.
reply to Elizabeth says
DECEMBER 6, 2014 AT 10:49 AM
I am truly grateful for not only once but almost a year later you again walked me through it for the Flippen Family—the foia—thank you.
I could not have known that important information without you EN.
I really don’t understand EN at times like vice versa but in the end I do know no matter wherever her place is on the YHF she has not done me or Sonny any harm. I think by me mentioning her name at times to certain things I may of made her feel I did wrong and that was why you see periodically an apology made by me.
Life is too short
Right now with all the behind the scene bs this week I have not wanted to come online much with my tiny cell and type type type to have the screen go back back back after typing for 1/2 hour on tiny cell so you caught us here when at the library but finally it is Sunday and in my home on my pc and zoned out to here—to catch up and read.
Some real great stuff on here.
Offline this week we had the YCSO thing to than being followed from Chino Valley to Surprise and its odd…I would never do anything to deserve being arrested and if I ever was it was done under false ways and what can they gain by following us but waste gas and time…are you trying to find something to use against me…why waste your time whoever you are on us and do us all a favor and focus and look at things I brought up long ago. Do a family tree of the YHF. Place each person that fought on that fire and connect the dots of family relations and friend relations and how since day one I felt an outside investigation team was needed because Bob Powers I know you heard my stuff on the sun rises and sets stuff but now look at these nineteen men and how some of the men come into our thoughts and dreams to this very day and using that sun set and rise thing—look at it that— here —the men UP THERE spending their Eternity looking down see everything we see in circles of life spherical speaking from their position. Each person trying to reach clarity and some to create maze like confusion. The people trying to CREATE—God knows them—He laughs and thinks they need to change up their play—Sometimes our comments is a give in to inviting judgement and how we feel for the day may get or warrant a reaction.
Just this week a man said to me with Sonny and Bob Kramer present I would like to see what’s under that (my blue upper clothing) and Sonny stayed quiet where normally he says “she’s a lady” or a support comment but then again later in week this man went to come to us in the Yarnell library grabbing on to me and later again that night doing the same knowing not to— so Sonny and I left and next thing I am doing defensible space yesterday (BECAUSE BOB POWERS IS SPOT ON THERE—IT BEGINS AT HOME AND DOING MY BEST TO EDUCATE AND DO THE WORK FOR THESE FOLKS FOR FREE) anyways Jeff drove by and said that man is going around with a notarized statement and went to the location for maybe witness’ to event and the fact is he can notarize all day how he is a gay man all he wants but being on the fire board and all the behind the scenes of local current and retired fire folks telling me Chief Ben Palm wants the hikers arrested and is eager to do that and when asked directly he would not answer yes or no and said if I want to believe others that my choice. Really? Plus the Dec 1st bs talk with Sgt. Ashby that got a day later apology on her own accord on the very same topic of arresting the hikers & that darn site. So am I comfortable gay or not in a person grabbing on me—nah. Not okay so since he did his little ploy & shit I like the fella—got no gripes for him—he works hard and lives his life but when you try to pull me in or Sonny on this horseshit ploy it indeed red flags there could be more to this. Get the hikers arrested in any fashion possible…is that right Chief Ben Palm and YCSO? I live a good legal life and you all can try and trap me in any shape or form but in the end God is watching and I know I am protected by Him.
Most who know my complete life know I should not be here—no shit—yet I am. Early in my life I saw things nobody especially a child should have to see or be around — for that I WON’T avert my eyes—not again! Back than it was secret survival—today no more secrets. If I had not met Gail Edwards; she changed my life FOREVER. In a dark territorial world there IS light.
some to create maze like confusion. The people trying to CREATE—God knows them—He laughs and thinks they need to change up their play–
in reference to SAIT folks
just in case someone was thinking someone on here—
nope.
I think of Mike Dudley how that video was done for current firefighters and wonder how many saw right through it…
Mike, man. Really?
Shaking head.
To many areas to review in this YHF and it would be so sweet to be handed a nice piece of information that locals say they want to give us but life happens and maybe they forgot or maybe the Holidays but all I can do is be in the right place at right time and re ask—
Joy forgot to mention i stepped between him and her, and needless to say he won’t bother again. Cowboys know how to square circles.
oh geez, Sonny. I really can handle my own life and to me yes he was not in the right or he did not have the consent yet he is just some man who goes to work and maybe has a drink or two. If he was a prop to ploy this concern than too sad but if it is just a man who speaks crude words as in humor than bottom line just keep it away from me and my ears yet I do not need any man or woman to stand between me and anyone…I understand you Sonny but others may not so they can misconstrue your words and ideas of things. We sure are at a cross roads because I feel you really show a lack of understanding to some areas. You this cowboy guy watching you I felt I was watching Harrelson in True Detective in your old school mannerisms which really is not needed either. Why is it such that if you don’t think like another or do things as one wants you to—they can say “f- off” or “I never liked you anyways” or “do what you want” with a sworded tone and pierced look or trash/damage your character when forgiveness is so much faster and better. Why is it I feel at such a strong cross road these days. I mean Sonny you get locked on something and hard to share with you so I hope in your lifetime that you are shared everything you expect out of it yet I know indeed I can never ever meet your expectations—just cannot happen—I am old fashion but you should of been born in the 1860-1880 era indeed. I am more of 1928-1948 era myself. I thank you for everything you taught me and are still…
Joy~
You wrote:
“I wish I can write like others versus how I do”
LOL! I actually love reading your posts. You’ve actually gotten BETTER!
I have two degrees. I was a minister. I spent YEARS writing. Trying to make complicated stuff understandable by normal people. I wrote for Lowell Observatory for the public for two years. That was special!!
In 2006 I decided to quite writing and get serious about photography instead. I was tired of trying to put stuff into lines with periods and commas that didn’t fit into that form. Although I did do bits and pieces of mini-blogging on Daily Kos for a number of years.
I blogged Deepwater Horizon, the Libyan Revolution, Fukushima, and Occupy.
This format here, where you can’t edit stuff, is one of the most difficult formats to write anything in. Even on Twitter, you can delete posts if you realize they don’t make sense or have a mistake in them.
I started teaching my daughter how to write when she was about five, all the way through high school (where I realized they weren’t doing the job) and then all the way through graduate school. I knew she needed to know how to do it, even if her peers couldn’t.
Your writing may be “different” but your mind is AWESOME!!!!!! You’re so SPOT ON with what you are thinking and saying.
And I understand that at least half the time you’re posting via less than adequate computers, networks, mobiles, whatever, while I’m sitting here comfortably on an iMac with all my files and networks attached directly to it.
Your idea for Elizabeth to post that photo is spot on. As was your idea to cut the confusion on those Olympus photos by taking a photo and compare it to the time she took the photo, did exactly that–cut the confusion.
And I’m not all that “pure.” I have my ahem moments. And I sometimes post things I regret becuz it’s late at night and I’ve had my share of what I drink to put me to sleep over my neuropathy–rum.
But I do have YEARS of experience in what we, in the justice community, call “witnessing.” Paying attention to “facts on the ground” and honoring them. In a number of really nasty contentious situations.
Because of those YEARS, I’m very clear about what I’m doing and why, when I’m doing that. And also HOW. And that doesn’t mean I don’t make my share of mistakes.
And that’s exactly what you’re doing. You may not have years of experience, but you’re definitely holding your own as you learn.
I’m so glad you’re here.
Have a great day!
And on the light side correcting my spelling or trying to.
My only degree is in the school of hard knocks and experience.
reply to Marti Reed says
DECEMBER 6, 2014 AT 11:38 AM
LOL! I actually love reading your posts. You’ve actually gotten BETTER!
my reply—-the thing is…I thought as I laid in evacuation first week of July 2013 and July 1st I laid in there on my birthday and Sonny is sharing to Don Alexander and others about how we took photos of this and that and I laid there thinking SHIT, why should I live in history, huh? Why to a tragedy? why always must I be..I don’t wanna know anything anymore…I lived the horror already in my childhood and teens—my husband knows and Gail Edwards and Sonny and very select few…I learned so early on THIS IS A WORLD WHERE NOTHING IS SOLVED! I laid in that thought and I thought if I share my name …my name may be out there and here locally locals tell me my own evacuation bed mates Neattie’s mom Annie had me investigated. You will not come back with a thing for me. I indeed saw crap early on you all see in real bad nightmares or horror movies but I don’t do wrong except let a decent body get fat and trying to rid of that problem with my trail trekking with Sonny and Skeeter. I am not afraid of a local looking into me yet I know what I saw as a kid that person who was doing life in prison for dismembering a woman…that kind of woman is the kind who was being released on one of those holey roller good behaviors and that is the kind of woman I do not need to be reunited with so YES in the start I never wanted to help…not an account or a photo just let my people I know in Congress and Yarnell see it private. Yet these 19 men may have perished but their souls are all on that Weavers and I feel their presence and if Sonny and I did not unite as one to share our account and photos and videos and gather others accounts and photos and videos so this can FINALLY get properly assessed vs the horseshit orchestrated by the SAIT/SAIR. I won’t avert my eyes— not again! I won’t want this to happen to anyone else EVER AGAIN and if we don’t stay the VOICE and I do not just mean Sonny and Joy—US ALL—this practice will again and again forever happen—TIME FOR A CHANGE IN THE WAY THEY FIGHT WILDFIRES! My true failure in life is knowing others—I can smooth as butter every ten days come out of my shell and be the light but than I go back in my shell. NOT SINCE THE FIRE! I have daily been out there and I see a change in me. Also along the way I made errors because I am not use to being around a person every day especially strangers. Thank you to these fine nineteen men. I will never understand Amanda Marsh and her body language and last email to me—never—yet I always felt her and I would of had a different first time…
How much of the chain of command language fell into factor on the YHF? How many were just a pawn piece? What other factors will surface?
So many state names and theories and what if and this could of happen but I am not a follower on that just time stamped accounts of any kind so we can weed through to the fact based to reach clarity. Simple.
——————————————————
Sonny and I are very blessed you are here Marti Reed. Thank you for all you are doing— we appreciate you!
——————————————————————-
And I understand that at least half the time you’re posting via less than adequate computers, networks, mobiles, whatever, while I’m sitting here comfortably on an iMac with all my files and networks attached directly to it.
Reply: Exactly. So frustrating. Sundays are my favorite down time to be here and relax and read and write versus some tiny cell or local library where not consented grabbing happens as a possible ploy for b.s.—don’t have all the details just third party people saying do not go direct to him or he may call 911 for harassment and I am like ???? for what I just want first hand of what is going on???
—————————————————–
Your idea for Elizabeth to post that photo is spot on. As was your idea to cut the confusion on those Olympus photos by taking a photo and compare it to the time she took the photo, did exactly that–cut the confusion.
Reply: it seem simple. If it is important than do it but if not than don’t. I am not asking for it o even thinking about it. Just saying claims can be made but also proven very simply as I said—
———————————————–
And I’m not all that “pure.” I have my ahem moments
———————————————————-.
reply: you know my husband always tells me how he loves the innocence and straight forwardness of my heart. Sonny views life almost cave man era like. He has a strong way about him that things are this kind of way and to me “loyalty” is number one but I am odd—as I tell my husband loyalty in the meaning even if I did wrong you would not protect me but be loyal to Him that I do right in this world yet all my life I always tended to others and my journey is self-seeking in some sorts with Sonny because hell I cant have a person who hikes like he does. I can go on with the blah, blah, blahs and reflect back and share to you a strange her’s life—mean a stranger’s life; mine but until I met Sonny my earlyhood I saw the depth of others’ darkness and learned the degrees of avoid ability (THE YHF) and degrees of accidents. John as Sonny knows has always been there for me. Early on (late 80’s/ early 90’s) I clamped down on the title gladly HOUSEWIFE; worked here and there but at the time did not have to with his income/lifestyle. It’s not that I am incapable of work because anyone reading this that I worked with know I overwork and I am hard-worker. When I allowed doctors “in” I saw the meaning of traditional, alternative, natural and all its own games…when I began to bury and then bury then bury again and again and again and again and so on…all the folk God guided to my life I began to seek refuge in my desert walking as the desert rooted me closer to Him. It was my own kind of medicine—called a dose of reality—I let myself go and really fast too. I did not realize I was almost 300 pounds and I range now from 175-185 range. There are folks who know me from the 109-133# range that when they saw me at 300 thought Father Time did me way wrong but why lay blame to him…I can’t tell you how many people knew me as the adrenaline junkie —aerobics junkie— stunt junkie than saw me FAT and thought ??? No way, not her. Why not me. We all go through phases in our lives different. I would walk to the end of my driveway huffing and puffing and walk back in the house and grab a haagen daz and hang out chatting with people most only will ever see on tv/movie not in person like I use to interact in that life—I would complain of that driveway hike—ow! My knees. Why bother? Than I locked on to the faces…the ghosts…the SAD way our world is…then Sonny shows up. To SEE the desert from his eyes—one of a kind. Today, he took a piece of desert glass and we will hang it tomorrow as he turned it into a heart and dremmel a cross on it and that is our dedication ornament for the Memorial Yarnell Christmas Tree from us. We cross our heart through the good times and bad we will be there for all affected by the YHF. That desert—to see nature caring for its young—beautiful to watch God’s creation just doing what He made it to do! It made me think of us all here. JUST BEING! I currently am not that adrenaline junkie and still a bit pudgie and I know I lay on the fugly side because people who knew me in the day have no problem telling me that for some reason. I am very very grateful we ALL have JD’s page here to share and care. We are all important—
I do wish MORE people WHO KNEW THE MEN or were on the fire or locals came here to share—my hopes…still can try sharing about the page to whoever I meet–
—————————————
I’m so glad you’re here.
Have a great day!
———reply: I am glad you are here Marti. Have a sweet night.
Reply to Elizabeth post on December 5, 2014 at 9:19 am
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> I continue to have or have access to all sorts of YHF-related
>> information that folks on this board seem not to have access to.
>>
>> For example, with the Aaron Hulburd and other videos that the
>> Arizona Forestry folks only recently posted on the internet, some
>> of us either HAD those videos, had versions of them, or had access
>> to them for months before it appears that JD finally did.
So which is it?
Since it’s impossible to know what you even mean by ‘some of us’… ( and I doubt you would elaborate on that even if asked )… let’s just FOCUS on YOU for a moment since YOU are the one who occasionally posts here.
Did YOU actually HAVE all 21 of those Aaron Hulburd videos that were only published by Arizona Forestry on November 7 ‘months before anyone else did’… or did you NOT?
OR… did YOU only have VERSIONS of them ‘months before anyone else did’?
What do you mean by VERSIONS?
OR… did YOU only have ACCESS to them ‘months before anyone else did’?
What do you mean by ACCESS? Did you have some kind of ‘guest logon’ to
the US Forestry Servers themselves?
And in ANY of the ‘scenarios’ you are listing above that *might* apply to YOU… what do you mean by MONTHS? 2 months? 10 months? More? Less? Something in-between?
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> So, in short, when I state something as fact or I state that I am pretty
>> certain of something, unless I specify otherwise, you can generally be
>> pretty sure that I have the raw material (e.g. something more reliable
>> than just statements in the SAIT or some such) to back up what I am saying.
No. We can’t.
Because of your poor communication skills and your reluctance to answer even the simplest questions with regards to ‘claims’ you make… we have NEVER been able to be ‘pretty sure’ you have ANY of the things you often say you have.
Example: You SAID you had a copy of the Panebaker Air Study Video that contained the (supposed) radio callout from Paul Musser to DIVSA and you were then spouting ‘claims’ based on what you (supposedly) had… yet you would neither publish what you (supposedly) had anywhere OR ( more importantly ) even answer ANY simple questions that might prove you were telling the truth.
It was obvious you were ( at that time ) refusing to post what you said you had anywhere where anyone else could see it or hear it… so I simply asked you about TWELVE TIMES to verify you had it by simply providing just the TIME OFFSET into the video where this (supposed) radio call from Paul Musser to DIVSA was actually taking place.
It was important to know, at that time, since we were actively working on the full sequence of events in that same timeframe.
You NEVER answered ANY of those queries for that simple piece of information.
Any reasonable person would conclude that your continual reluctance to answer even a question as simple as that means there was a good chance you did NOT even have what you say you had.
So no… we can’t ‘assume’ anything you ever say it TRUE unless you are willing to help us VERIFY that you might have what you say you have.
TRUST but VERIFY. It’s nothing personal. It’s just part of the process.
It’s a hole you have dug for yourself, Elizabeth… slowly and carefully… and YOU are the only one who can dig yourself out of it ( if you even care to ).
A good START would be to now just answer the simple questions up above with regards to what you say you had ‘months before anyone else did’… AND the following (simple) questions…
How did YOU come to either HAVE or HAVE ACCESS TO all 21 of the Aaron Hulburd videos prior to November 7 and (quote) “months before anyone else did”?
Did YOU file your OWN FOIA request for the material?
If so… did YOU file direct to Prescott National Forest, like InvestigativeMEDIA did… or did you file YOUR FOIA direct to the US Forestry Department?
The actual DATE that you filed your FOIA would be helpful, of course.
These are VERY simple ‘followup’ questions that deserve answers… and if ( once again ) you do NOT answer them… there really still is no reason to believe you are telling the truth even now…. or at anytime in the future.
If you really don’t feel that this particular public discussion is ‘right for you’…. that’s fine.
If that is the case… PLEASE stop posting here and wasting everyone’s time and PLEASE go find a place where you DO feel comfortable and find a way to properly ‘share’ what you might have or know.
It’s not a ‘contest’.
It doesn’t matter HOW the information ‘gets out’… so long as it does.
Might not hurt to post the letter received from the FOIA request for the video request to Elizabeth. That every one else has posted like JD??????
Thank you.
And, PS.
None of this actually has anything to do with what I actually said.
I know… but don’t tell her that. She think’s she is ‘scoring points’.
Copy.
Thanks to Wants to Know the Truth–First I appreciate your repy to the legal questions I had, It definitely threw some light on them.
Yes, I and others woul d like Elizabeth to answer correctly on the questions you posed her.
I have an excuse–age and ignorance–but those learned bodies we have posting here should be more exacting and most important precise in their diatribes– Thanks for showing them their foibels
Hey Sonny-
She placed her full name to people and people put her name out publicly not her and she is a person in a current profession so maybe she is limited due to that fact and her resources and sources that she cannot share publicly but maybe in person she would. I would like to give her the benefit versus the doubt your post said because again we can analyze all day but I put the statement out and it did not need an audience or cheer squad Sonny. Yet I said GREAT if she can and GREAT if she can’t. We have no clue to her daily life and what she is able to share just be grateful what she has shared and even if I speak like this Sonny—it does not mean its an invite for a text or email or call—I just feel a lot of people are being attacked on here for no reason—I think RTS and all the others have stated some great stuff on here and well, I know in the end by old emails as I looked Sunday Calvin is Calvin and if there has to be a blend for Calvin to EN than its humorous to some points made could appear such but I will be shocked indeed if they were the same person. Now for all the other names lumped to one person— I never got emails from them so I cannot look into that. I just won’t continue on this topic anymore Sonny offline or here. I hope you understand. Happy trails to you too.
Thanks to Wants to Know the Truth again–The HELMS would not have been a good lookout point, but behind the helms on that bouldery knoll or the end of the south ridge of the basin they died in would have been perfect and might have been where Marsh was at when the GMHS came down.
He could have seen the fire coming around the north ridge from there and at the same time had a perfect view of all the canyon up to the two track. If he were at the Helms his vision would have been obscured by brush and much of the lower portion of the canyon. There are some small bouldery hills that would obscure parts of Seseme area as well. If that fire were paralleling Seseme for a time as they say then changed to the SW suddenly then he could have seen it from the point I mentioned. When I topped the mountain at 1 pm the wind was already moving SW at that time, although slightly. By the time I went back and fetched Joy and then again topped the mountain and follwed the two track until we dropped off in the boulders to the South on the Congress side, the wind had picked up considerably in the same SW direction. Whether currents were different below I cant say but in thunderstorm approaching conditions winds get squirrly and you sometimes see them switch like a witch on a broom.
I wanted to put this at the Top I apologized to Marti, WTKTT and FIRE20+ down below and again I want to say here. My statement was not meant to be sarcastic to any one was commenting on what Marti posted and I guess it hit the wrong way. I am truly sorry it came out like that and I sincerely apologize. To all of you who took offence I misunderstood Marti and was to short with my reply.
No worries Bob, thanks.
Look at the 209’s filed for the YHF. (I posted this below and am bringing to top)
6/29 1959: No Injuries this reporting period, No Injuries to date, No Fatalities.
6/30: No 209 filed (however at the end of this SAIR file, they include a 209 for the Dean Peak Fire from 6/30.)
7/01 0007: 1 Injury this reporting period, 1 Injury to date, 19 Fatalities.
7/02-7/05: Same throughout: 0 Injuries this reporting period, 1 Injury to date, 19 Fatalities.
So…it appears as if somebody, somewhere on the YHF did get injured, sought medical attention and was reported on the financials for the fire.
These 209’s also show the resources assigned, like dozers.
I did not know if those were released in the Fire reports as I had not seen any but good info. As we both know there are always injuries on Fires and have to be reported to cover the employee incase of further medical needs.
Any Burn over Injury or equipment that had damage would have to have a report
Thru Finance. Should be in the full fire records with the State Office.
Should be accessible if any one wants them. Most agencies are required to keep the files for at least 10 years especially with law suits pending.
So…it appears as if somebody, somewhere on the YHF did get injured, sought medical attention and was reported on the financials for the fire.
—reply: I think my developer’s wife Roxie Glover at Wickenburg Hospital cared for that person and may be an article on it—let me see if I can reach her and ask more information if you need it to this area..
Joy… please be careful with that.
There are HIPPA ( Health Information / Privacy ) laws involved here.
It would NOT be appropriate for your friend to release or impart ANY information about someone’s medical treatment ( that she might be privy to ) to YOU or to ANYONE else without the permission of the individual who was treated.
The Fire records has that info with out releasing name just info on the accident and injury for the records.
Just finally looked at the 209 that was filed just after midnight on July 1.
All it says is 1 injury to date. Period. End of story.
Doesn’t say ANYTHING else after that. It could mean anything from a burn, to a big burn to a sprained ankle to a broken leg to whatever. And absolutely nothing about what that injury was in relationship to or when it even happened.
All it says is 1.
You have to request the fire Finance records which have not been released.
You have to fill out paper work for each accident for authorization to go to a hospital for treatment as the cost is covered by Workman’s Comp. And the Fire.
The 209 is just a general breakdown for each day and costs
call it a daily diary.
There is a written report some where that covers the accident and doctor or hospital visit. The Safety section and finance section take care of all of that.
Thanks Bob. I appreciate it.
A lot of what you have to say is, I’m guessing, from your experience, relatively readily available inside your head.
A lot of what we “civilians” have to offer is a combination of what we have painstakingly learned, including a mix of stuff we can pin down via a year’s worth of notes, keywords (in my case a huge database of visual imagery), bookmarks, files in our “Documents” folders, and digging back into ancient threads in Ten Chapters of InvestigativeMEDIA, oh yes and then often long searches of the Internet.
And, obviously, there can be a great deal of mistakes and misinformation in the middle of all that, as is the case with this whole thing about the dozer(s).
It really can get quite messy, when something like these several sentences out of a newly released video pop up.
And you have added a lot to this discussion that I appreciate and am in aw of
Thank you
and Thank WTKTT
This is a great blog because of both of you and your research.
Thank you.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 4, 2014 at 8:07 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> WTKTT, you wrote:
>>
>> ———————————————————————
>> “In the new radio conversation that we can hear regarding some kind of ‘plan’ for
>> Boulder Springs Ranch… it’s actually perfectly possible that SPGS1 Gary Cordes
>> might have thought that Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were ALREADY THERE
>> when he was having this ‘new’ conversation with Tyson Esquibel.
>>
>> If he has testified that he always thought they had “plenty of time to get there”…
>> then he really might have thought they had already ARRIVED at the Boulder
>> Springs Ranch when we now hear him asking Tyson Esquibel to “send an Engine
>> to the Boulder Springs Ranch”.
>> ——————————————————————–
>>
>> I find this really intriguing, and, at this moment, rather possible.
>>
>> I really don’t think Cordes had ANY IDEA at this time, while he was, visually
>> and mentally, doing evacuations in that little neighborhood in north Yarnell,
>> what was going on in the Granite Mountain/Boulder Springs Ranch/Glen Ilah
>> area of the fire when he was discussing “his plan” with either Esquibel or Ball.
Totally agree… and on a certain level… how in the world COULD he have known?
He was all the way up there on Highway 89 just past where Shrine Road meets Hwy 89.
He was NOT ‘in an airplane’ and no one who WAS in an airplane was really updating ANYONE on the ground about what THEY could see ( See any of my other posts about the MASSIVE DISCONNECT that day between Air and Ground forces ).
He was totally absorbed in these ‘trigger points’ of his… but even THOSE ‘trigger points’ were TOTALLY focused on the north end of Yarnell.
Cordes had NO LOOKOUTS established on the SOUTH end of town… much less in Glen Ilah itself.
This ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ place that Cordes seemed so fond of calling a ‘bomb-proof safety zone’ would have been a PERFECT place for an established lookout to be keeping an eye on what was happening out in that ‘middle bowl’ if anyone had realized it was going to become important to do that for that day’s BURN CYCLE…
…but there was NO SUCH THING.
There was NO LOOKOUT established at the Boulder Springs Ranch to report to Cordes about ANYTHING that might have been happening down there, or ‘out in the middle bowl’, or that might have been imminently threatening that entire subdivision.
Cordes was totally absorbed in what was happening on the north end of town and I don’t think it even occurred to him that that ENTIRE ‘middle bowl’ was blowing up like an atom bomb out there and about to enter the Glen Ilah area at the same time ( or shortly after ) his own “Aw SHIT Ridge” trigger point was being hit.
So YES… Cordes was CLUELESS about what that fire was really doing out in that middle bowl.
I don’t know WHAT he thought… that some ‘finger’ of the fire was coming into the Harper Canyon area and chasing his people out… but that was ALL he really had to worry about?
He wasn’t just ‘overhead’ at that time… He was literally ‘over his head’.
He had no DIVS in his area to back him up… Field OPS was absorbed with structure protection shit miles away on the NORTH end… Planning OPS had only recently ‘jumped into the pool’ and was still on a learning curve’… and he couldn’t even speak directly to Air Attack on Air-To-Ground if he wanted to because his own damn radio was broken.
It was an absolute MESS at the ‘command level’ at that time, on the SOUTH end.
Even the ‘Field OPS’ for the fire ( OPS1 Todd Abel ) was having his own ‘tunnel vision’ thing going on and was myopically focusing on supervising some burnout operation way up on Miner’s Creek Road that where only ONE structure was being threatened.
It’s hard to even describe all the FAIL that was happening at those critical moments that day… at that TIME… and Gary Cordes was literally just trying to be the traffic cop in the middle of a crowded intersection with car crashes happening.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Looking back at the Yarnell Gamble video. I don’t have a
>> credible timestamp on that. What do you have? If so,
>> where is it in relationship to the above communications?
There is NO QUESTION that the YARNELL-GAMBLE video was shot at exactly 4:27 PM that day.
The proof is twofold…
1) The SIREN that is head in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video is when the Peeples Valley FFs were ‘sounding their sirens’ on their engines right there in the Youth Camp as the predetermined ‘retreat’ signal for the FFs who were still out at the west end of Harper Canyon. These SIRENS match EXACTLY what is heard in the OTHER videos taken by the OTHER lookout crew that was standing on that rock pile about 1/2 mile south of the Harper Canyon area. THOSE other videos have known (good) timestamps and the moment the SIRENS match up is exactly 4:27 PM.
2) The YARNELL-GAMBLE video has its own EXIF data in it, and it verifies the 4:27 PM timeframe. The actual EXIF ‘Creation Date’ is exactly 7 hours off ( because of the -07:00 hour Greenwich Timezone thing ) but has the exact matching minutes value… but the video ALSO has some GPS TIME information taken from satellites which shows that the video really was being shot at exactly 4:27 PM.
EXIF data taken directly from the YARNELL-GAMBLE video…
It was shot with an Apple iPhone 4S using rev 5.1.1 of IOS…
———————————————————————
File Name: yarnell_gamble.MOV
MIME Type: video/quicktime
Major Brand: Apple QuickTime (.MOV/QT)
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Create Date: 2013:06:30 23:27:16
Modify Date: 2013:06:30 23:27:29
Duration: 19.00 s
Image Width: 1920
Image Height: 1080
Clean Aperture Dimensions: 1920×1080
Production Aperture Dimensions: 1920×1080
Encoded Pixels Dimensions: 1920×1080
Graphics Mode: ditherCopy
Camera Model: iPhone 4S
Software Version: 5.1.1
Content Create Date: 2013:06:30 16:27:16-07:00
GPS Coordinates: 34 deg 13′ 59.16″ N, 112 deg 45′ 5.40″ W
Make: Apple
Handler Type : Metadata Tags
Make (und-US): Apple
Creation Date (und-US): 2013:06:30 16:27:16-07:00
GPS Coordinates (und-US): 34 deg 13′ 59.16″ N, 112 deg 45′ 5.40″ W
GPS Decimal: 34.2331, -112.7515
Software (und-US): 5.1.1
Model (und-US): iPhone 4S
Creation Date: 2013:06:30 16:27:16-07:00
Software: 5.1.1
Avg Bitrate: 21.2 Mbps
GPS Altitude: 1492 m
GPS Altitude Ref: Above Sea Level
GPS Latitude: 34 deg 13′ 59.16″ N
GPS Longitude: 112 deg 45′ 5.40″ W
GPS Position: 34 deg 13′ 59.16″ N, 112 deg 45′ 5.40″ W
Image Size: 1920×1080
————————————————————————————-
So look at the TWO different TIMESTAMPS in the EXIF data…
The ‘Create Date’ field is the one coming from the iPhone 4S internal clock…
Create Date: 2013:06:30 23:27:16
The ‘Create Date (und-US)’ is the value being extracted from the GPS satellite chips onboard…
Creation Date (und-US): 2013:06:30 16:27:16 -07:00
Notice that for BOTH… the ‘minutes:seconds’ values match perfectly at ’27 minutes and 16 seconds past the hour’.
The HOUR is OFF on the ‘Create Date’ but it is OFF by EXACTLY 7 hours… which is the ‘Greenwich Mean Time’ difference between Arizona and that clock tower in Greenwich, England, from which all time zones are measured.
The GPS satellite chips were automatically subtracting the -07:00 hours timezone offset and so THAT is why that ‘Creation Date’ time is EXACTLY correct at 16:27:16 ( 4:27:16 PM ).
So the YARNELL-GAMBLE video was shot at 4:27:16 PM that day.
There really is no question about it.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> (And I will put my bit in my mouth and refrain from asking
>> what you have been thinking about who asked the
>> question that resulted in Eric’s reply)
No need to put any bits in any mouth.
If you look way back… I have ALWAYS thought that the person who seems to be asking Eric Marsh if he could ‘Hurry up’ at exactly 4:27 PM in that YARNELL-GAMBLE video *MIGHT* have been SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
There have ALWAYS been a ‘finite’ number of people in ‘fire command’ that it really COULD have been talking to Eric Marsh in that capacity, with that kind of authoritative TONE, at that exact TIME… that Eric Marsh would even feel the need to ‘answer’ to the way he did…
…and SPGS1 Gary Cordes has ALWAYS been ONE of them.
Now that the new Hulburd videos give us REALLY GOOD contiguous recordings of what Gary Cordes’ voice really sounded like over the radio ( with modulation )… I’m even closer to be able to saying it really WAS him talking at the start of the YARNELL-GAMBLE video.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’m just asking about the TIMING of it, at this point.
Understood… and ‘I hear ya’. The TIMING here is significant.
If I am right about 4:35:18 PM being the moment Cordes was speaking to Esquibel about ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’, ‘Granite Mountain’ and ‘Engines going there’… then the TIME SEPARATION is only 8 minutes.
There is NO DOUBT that the YARNELL-GAMBLE video was shot at EXACTLY 4:27 PM that day.
There is also NO DOUBT ( thanks to the new Hulburd videos ) that just 8 minutes ( 4:35.18 PM ) after Eric’s report that GM was ‘coming from the heel of the fire”, we can hear SPGS1 Gary Cordes trying to make sure there is an Engine out at the Boulder Springs Ranch and that he says the words ‘Granite Mountain’ right in the middle of his ‘instructions’ to TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel and that his instructions end with something about “make sure he gets out safely”.
Taken ALONE… the YARNELL-GAMBLE video just seems to be Eric Marsh telling SOMEONE in a position of authority what Granite Mountain’s STATUS was at 4:27 PM… and why it might be ‘taking them so long’ to get somewhere someone seemed to be expecting them to be. They were ( Eric’s actual words ) “coming from the heel of the fire”. What Eric was really ‘explaining’ to someone in a position of authority is that THAT is a ‘long way’… and THAT is why they weren’t where this other person wanted them to be yet.
Taken ALONE… the new ‘good plan’ conversation we can hear 8 minutes later ( 4:35.18 PM ) between Gary Cordes and Tyson Esquibel about Cordes wanting TWO Engines out at the Boulder Springs Ranch ( and that somehow the words ‘Granite Mountain’ were in the middle of those instructions to Esquibel ) could mean a lot different things.
Taken TOGETHER ( The YARNELL-GAMBLE video and then 8 minutes later Cordes using the words ‘Granite Mountain’ in association with ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ when giving orders to Esquibel )… might make a ‘sum is greater than its parts’ scenario whereby SPGS Gary Cordes really DID have some kind of PLAN in motion for protecting the Glen Ilah subdivision and it involved both Engines at the Boulder Springs Ranch AND Granite Mountain… and that’s why he had been wondering what was ‘taking them so long’ to get to the BSR 8 minutes earlier ( at 4:27 PM ).
So I believe ( me, personally, your mileage may vary, yada, yada ) it’s definitely possible that it WAS Gary Cordes that Eric Marsh was ‘reporting’ to at 4:27 about Granite Mountain’s progress… and that 8 minutes later Gary Cordes might have been assuming they had now ARRIVED at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Did Gary Cordes actually ASK them to ‘get there ASAP’ because he was planning to use them ( in some way ) for this ’emergency DOZER line’ that he actively thought Cory Ball was ‘scouting’ out at that moment? Did he call and ASK them to do this AFTER the Paul Musser conversation when Musser passed on to him that they thought they were ‘committed to the black… try Blue Ridge’.
Did Cordes still believe he needed Blue Ridge to be out there finishing that Cutover Trail to protect Yarnell… but he now needed the OTHER Hotshot crew to help with the OTHER ‘dozer line’ he already had Cory Ball ‘scouting out’ near the Boulder Springs Ranch to protect Glen Ilah?
Better yet… was it Gary Cordes himself who actually ASKED them to COME DOWN out of the ‘safe black’ and participate in that plan of his… and THAT is what the entire ‘comfort level’ discussion was between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed?
Remains to be seen.
Back to work.
Copy.
I’ve been wondering, since the filing of the lawsuits, why CYFD was named in them. I didn’t think Todd Abel was a strong enough “target,” for a variety of reasons, all things considered.
And I don’t think, at this point, the lawyers, at that time, were aware of what we’re talking about now. But maybe they were. Who knows??
But it’s looking more and more, to me, that Gary Cordes may be finding himself in some fairly hot hot water going forward.
I find myself wondering, as I think you are also, when Cordes first communicated to Granite Mountain his “plan.”
On the other hand, I keeping insisting that we remember to LOOK UP.
Gary Cordes most likely wouldn’t have found himself in the overwhelmed situation he was in if…
this fire had been properly managed/resourced in the first place.
And, as I write this, I’m remembering somewhere today you wrote about how Gary Cordes may have not had enough “creds” to have been exercising the kind of authority/span of control he was having to exercise that day. Thanks for that observation.
I also just went back and read Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview.
I went through it all again… ‘word for word’…. several times.
It is ‘striking’ to me that there really is a LOT of evidence now that Cordes DID have some kind of ‘last minute’ plan to try and push some dozer line there from the bottom of the Sesame area on over to the Boulder Springs Ranch, and that SEVERAL people were TOLD to start ‘executing’ on this plan ( Ball, DOZER, others )… and that even while resources were evacuating from Shrine area he is talking to Esquibel about the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ and ‘Granite Mountain’ and ‘Engines’ and whatnot…
…but there is NOTHING about ANY of this in his ADOSH interview.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
Cordes went into GREAT detail with ADOSH ( at their insistence ) about what was happening… what he was thinking… and what he was doing ( and telling others to do ) up to and around the time his ‘trigger points’ were being met, evacuations were taking place, and resources were assembling at the Ranch House Restaurant… but he says NOTHING about even being in any way concerned about the Glen Ilah area or that he ever had any thoughts about doing anything to protect it.
Given the evidence that he WAS concerned about that… and that he even seemed to have a last-minute PLAN to do something about it that he was actually executing on… his ‘cone of silence’ on any of that during his ADOSH interview is just kinda weird.
I daresay… like he was consciously CHOOSING not to mention any of that.
More later.
Followup…
>> I said…
>>
>>
>> Cordes has testified that he always thought they
>> had “plenty of time to get there”… then he really might have
>> thought they had already ARRIVED at the Boulder
>> Springs Ranch when we now hear him asking
>> Tyson Esquibel to “send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch”.
There has always been a piece of evidence that backs this up, and it comes from Gary Cordes himself.
From Gary Cordes ADOSH interview….
Q1 = Barry Hicks
A = Gary Cordes
———————————————-
Q1: Okay. Um, so uh, at, at some point um, air uh, during all of this, um, um, how did you uh, how did you hear of the uh, deployments?
A: That was back when I met with the group uh, before I went in to do the rescues, uh, when I met with Engine 59. It was Engine 59 that told me that they had transmitted over the radio, over air to ground that they had deployed and I, and I, it was Charlie Reyes whose the, whose the engine boss down there and I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s, they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof and he said no, they never got – made it there, they got cut off. And that’s when I knew obviously something bad had most likely occurred.
————————————————–
Key sentence…
“I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s, they were IN their safety zone.”
So Cordes seemed to be thinking that they were not only headed to the BSR… but that he was SURE they were already IN it… at some point.
The ADOSH investigators never asked him to explain this… or why he was so SURE ( in his own mind ) that they had already ARRIVED there.
Perhaps anyone who knew of, or heard a report of Eric’s move southward along the ridge-line, also assumed that GM was moving along with him, there-by supposedly giving the whole bunch a little extra time to get ‘out’ safely.
And, if that WAS the case, perhaps the “they’re coming from the heel of the fire” conversation was the FIRST TIME anyone that knew of the move realized that GM was further-out than anticipated when the fire was blowing-up, hence the “tell them to hurry-up” traffic.
Yes. As with pretty much all human/work related conversation… you have to step back sometimes and just examine it from a ‘contextual’ POV.
Take the YARNELL-GAMBLE conversation… and forget, for a moment, that it does SEEM like we are hearing Eric ‘responding’ to someone who is telling them to ‘hurry up’… and Eric is trying to explain to that person WHY it’s taking them so long. It’s because they are coming “all the way from the heel of the fire”. The IMPLIED ‘end’ of that statement from Eric has always been “…and that’s a LONG way, in case you didn’t know”.
Just take Eric Marsh’s statement by itself and what we KNOW is true there.
He was, in fact, responding to SOMEONE in authority ( someone he felt obliged to answer to ) about some kind of query along the lines of “What’s taking you so long”.
So… put that in context.
WHY would anyone be calling anyone to ask them “What’s taking you so long?”
Normally…. it would be because that someone is already EXPECTING you to BE somewhere… and you’re not.
I’m not trying to be ‘stupid simplistic’ here. I’m just trying to ‘break it down’.
Whoever that was that Marsh was ‘reporting to’ and offering his explanation of why they weren’t where that person EXPECTED them to already be pretty much MUST have ALSO been expecting them to DO SOMETHING for him/her once they got there.
At 4:27 PM… Gary Cordes is the one on that south side of town who felt the most responsibility to be ‘doing things’ to try and at least stop some of this fire from getting into both Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
Cordes had a ‘mental map’ of that trip from the anchor point to the BSR because HE is the one who showed the damn place to Eric Marsh that morning in the first place… on that iPad.
So the call at 4:27 might have been because Cordes’ ‘mental map’ was telling them they should already be there… and maybe available to him… but they weren’t there yet… and he wanted to know WHY… and HOW LONG it was going to take.
It suggests that there was MORE to this ‘move’ than just Granite Mountain trying to ‘get off the fire’.
It suggests a ‘mission’… and someone wanting to know WHY they weren’t where he thought they were supposed to be yet.
meant to say:
……anyone that knew of the move realized that GM was NOT with Eric, and was actually further out than anticipated………………
Elizabeth is gonna love this.
Remember when, a gazillion months ago we spent days arguing with her because she was so sure Musser was checking on GM’s availability “for Gary Cordes” and we were so sure that most likely wasn’t the case?
For some strange reason, I have the voice of that Prescotteer shouting out “Slow down, Skippy!!!” (my favorite line of the entire fire) echoing through my head right now.
As far as the TIMING goes on Musser’s ‘availability check’… I still think the evidence doesn’t support any kind of extended ‘face-to-face’ conversation between Musser and Cordes BEFORE Musser made that ‘availability check’ radio call…
…but that doesn’t mean Musser might not be involved in what appears to be this ‘plan’ that was being put into motion to try and do SOMETHING about protecting the Glen Ilah subdivision.
All things considered… I still believe the evidence supports Musser calling Eric Marsh just BEFORE he met up with Cordes there on the side of Highway 89.
It may have been more of a scenario where Musser was making ‘availability checks’ in his truck while actually driving down from the Sickles Road area… and he is the one who told Cordes that Granite Mountain was NOT available for any help in town… and their TDWAO ( Turn Down With Alternate Option ) was to “ask Blue Ridge”.
Cordes hadn’t heard from Frisby yet about Blue Ridge already going into ‘evacuation mode’ out there on the Cutover Trail… so Cordes might have still been thinking… “I still need Blue Ridge out there finishing that Cutover Trail… but I’m gonna need more Hotshots to improve the Dozer line that Ball is scouting and gonna cut for me down there to protect Glen Ilah”.
Maybe that’s when Cordes himself made contact with Eric Marsh and said… “Paul didn’t know what the plan was here. Blue Ridge is already doing something important. We could REALLY use you guys for the other project which is gonna try to hook up with the Boulder Springs Ranch area. Can you get there?”
We KNOW that Eric Marsh’s cellphone survived the fire.
Amanda Marsh has said (publicly) that she has it now.
Having it examined for evidence was ALWAYS what should have happened… but something tells me there’s little chance of that now. His cellphone records COULD still be obtained without his widow’s permission, however.
But… it’s also amazing to me that no set of investigators ever requested Gary Cordes’ cellphone records.
calvin said DECEMBER 4, 2014 AT 4:32 AM
“Doesn’t it seem reckless that Cory Ball was re entering the danger zone (in front of a racing wildfire), alone or with Hernandez), as late as 1630?
We have heard all this stuff about what an ultra safe crew these BRH were/are. Remember the comment by Robert (from BRH?) over at Wildfire Today, stating that he would have made the same mistake as GMH.
And also M2U00272 shows Frisby leave the relative safety of the group/equipment at the 1:18 mark and walk directly toward a propane tank that is actively venting. I mean really. What the hell was he doing? The videographer seems to be curious also, as to what he is doing, as he follows his movements. I first thought he could have been taking a piss. But it doesn’t appear so. Plus why the hell walk toward the danger to do that.
It seems more likely that he was in search for a little privacy? I cant tell for sure, but it appears that he is making a radio call at the 1:18- 1:19 mark. Sure makes me wonder.
I again just have to wonder out loud. Are ALL these WFF’s taking unnecessary, adrenalized risks, constantly? We have seen evidence as in the Trenton Snyder videos that it is possible. And we have seen that these issues do not seem to be reported (as with the Snyder videos)”
And I replied, DECEMBER 4, 2014 AT 8:56 PM:
“I haven’t downloaded that video yet. But I watched it a couple of times before and just re-watched it now.
The first few times I watched it, I thought Frisby was scouting. They seemed to be (for obvious reasons) having a tough time trying to figure out a route through all of that.
And watching 273R (wondering, now, why is that a redacted video???) seems to confirm that. They follow a route in the direction Frisby walked toward that burning structure.
I don’t think his concern was about privacy. He could have taken a leak right next to the UTVs and I don’t think anybody would have cared, much less video’d it.
You say:
“I again just have to wonder out loud. Are ALL these WFF’s taking unnecessary, adrenalized risks, constantly?”
I don’t think they are constantly. But I guess it depends.
I think what’s happening here, and also with Ball, is that they think one of their co-workers are in danger of their lives. And, I think, when that happens, the usual rules no longer quite apply.
Remember, in one of these videos, they mention that they don’t want to become another “part of the problem.”
So it’s a pretty serious tension here.
It’s totally apparent as they are driving through all that fire, they are scared as hell. But they are doing that, in their minds, because they think they may have a chance of saving their (for all of them) brothers.
When Ball drives in, it’s for something of a different purpose. To try to tie in with Justin. But he doesn’t get very far at all. But it’s still to tie in with someone he’s worked all day with. Who, at this point, doesn’t even have a radio. I don’t think he believed he was “at risk” until he got to that Manzanita sign.
And then, I think, he gave up, and went back to the Ranch House Restaurant. And probably, given the confused DPS report, said something to somebody that Justin might be “missing.”
Now that I’ve written all of this, I’m sitting here thinking, it’s interesting that his next set of photos, where he went back into Glen Ilah, don’t have anything at all regarding the dozer and Justin, and neither do his logs, unless that was redacted out.
???”
NOTE: If a propane tank is venting it wont explode.
When they get hot and do not vent you are in trouble.
Good point. Thanks!
But, still, you can tell by the video that at least the guys on that Three Prescotteers UTV were, definitely scared as hell driving through all that fire.
I don’t know how scared Frisby and Trew were. Frisby was, this summer, even as he and his crew were fighting the Slide Fire, according to his mother, going through lots of PTSD, agonizing about how he could possibly have done a better job of saving GM’s lives.
But I do think Calvin’s point about how risky do they go, and my point about taking more risks when they think they may be saving their brothers’ lives in a really really dangerous situation may change the way “the rules” get adhered to is relevant.
What do you think about this?
When a wildland firefighter (or, in this case, five of them) thinks that their 19 “brothers”‘ lives are on the line, and they think they might just possibly have a chance at at saving them, even at great risk to their own,
Does that change how wildland firefighters regard the 10 and 19 and LCES?
Should it?
Just to be realistic. What in the hell were these 5 guys going to be able to do with a bunch of burn injuries. I think I remember reading something about they had an oxygen bottle. Big woop! The only help they could bring was to find the actual location. But remember, they had people in the air that could do just that, and did. There really was no reason for the additional risk, and they did put their selves in a position of becoming part of the problem. Imo
Also. One of those 5 rescue party could have had some ems training. I do not think there is any supporting documentation that says that though. And we hear Todd able trying to send paramedics in with the crew. Right??
I believe Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown has some EMS background… but not 100 percent sure.
The way the THREW himself down into that box canyon after being ‘waved down’ from up by the ‘Descent Point’ by DPS medic Eric Tarr would suggest that he was sure there might be something DPS medic Tarr needed help with, at that moment.
Typo above… should have been…
The way HE ( Trew Brown ) THREW himself down into that box canyon….
INFO
All FS Fire fighters go thru First aid training and certification
There Supervisors in some cases are instructor certified by Red Cross and EMT’s Some may Have some EMT training.
All crews carry First aid kits and the kits are in all vehicles I would think the ATV’s as well.
I would bet Trew wasn’t carrying the oxygen bottle on that run? imo
And by the way. One oxygen bottle will only support one person. Meaning, you cannot hook two people (or more) up to one single canister of oxygen.
Also.
The treatment for suspected CO (carbon monoxide ) poisoning is 100% O2. The standard EMS oxygen canister would be an E cylinder. Which would support one victim at (near) 100% FIO2 for less than 30 minutes. So I will agree that one oxygen cylinder could have helped stabilize one survivor, until additional resources arrived.
So I will agree with bob, it appears they were going on a search mission and not really a rescue mission.
But my question/ observation remains.
How often do these WFF’s make adrenalized decisions that put themselves in jeopardy. In lieu of the standards and rules regarding the WFF industry.
It seems the new videos has identified another example of what I am identifying/ questioning.
“But my question/ observation remains.
How often do these WFF’s make adrenalized decisions that put themselves in jeopardy. In lieu of the standards and rules regarding the WFF industry.”
That’s exactly what I was trying to ask, also.
I’m guessing it would be more of an on-going gut-check “risk/benefit” calculation than a “hmmmmm what do the 10/18 LCES say?”
See my statement at the top.
your statement is right on Marti.
There are not many times you would run thru fire to save some one.
maybe 1 in 10,000 fires I would hope even 1 in a 100,000 fires Entrapment fatalities do not occur on a yearly basses thank god they are few and far between.
Reply to calvin post on December 5, 2014 at 4:23 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Just to be realistic. What in the hell were these 5 guys
>> going to be able to do with a bunch of burn injuries.
Not much… but there are other ’emergency’ things that might always need to be attended to in a situation like that such as collapsed lungs and/or hear stoppage. You don’t even need EMS training to know how to administer CPR.
I doubt they had any morphine with them… but anyone could have administered that as well.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> I think I remember reading something about they
>> had an oxygen bottle. Big woop!
It wasn’t unrealistic to believe an oxygen bottle ( even just one ) might have made the difference between life and death for at least a few of the injured.. and TIME really was the ‘enemy’ in that case.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> The only help they could bring was to find the actual location.
Gary Cordes KNEW the ‘actual location’ ( or close to it ).
Gary Cordes KNEW exactly where they were going and, indeed, when he was informed of the deployment… he said…
“Bullshit!… they are IN their Safety Zone ( the Boulder Springs Ranch )”.
He was wrong, of course… but HE, himself, was so SURE they were ALREADY there he said “Bullshit” to the news from Captain Reyes.
So why was anyone heading back to the anchor point at all?
Why would anyone have risked their lives to be driving miles to a place where they were NOT… when someone who was right there in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot knew EXACTLY where they ‘should’ be?… or just some hundred of yards short of there on the OTHER end of the ‘middle bowl’.
Same goes for McDonough. It’s really not credible that he wouldn’t have known where they were really going.
Between Cordes AND McDonough… there was no reason for those men to go out where they did.
I wonder, though.
Ranger 58 notes say they were hovering over the burned up bladder backs from the Lewis Crew work back on Saturday ( but they didn’t know that’s what they were hovering over ) when they also say they then saw “Three UTVs headed west”.
Does that mean that Frisby, Brown, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell didn’t really attempt to ‘break through’ until AFTER DPS Chopper Ranger 58 had called in that they ‘found something’… and they were now ‘hovering over it’ out at the ANCHOR point?
Frisby and Brown knew EXACTLY where THAT was.
If they just heard on the radio that a chopper was saying it ‘found something at the ANCHOR point’… maybe that is the moment they decided to head straight there… since they knew EXACTLY where that was.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> But remember, they had people in the air that could
>> do just that, and did. There really was no reason for
>> the additional risk, and they did put their selves in a
>> position of becoming part of the problem. Imo
Yes. It was VERY risky.
We still don’t know whose IDEA it really was to even send Frisby and Brown up there to the Shrine road in the first place.
Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were clueless about where they actually were. They actually thought ( and say so in the new videos ) that Granite Mountain was ‘just behind there’ ( referring to the Shrine Road and Youth Camp area ). It wasn’t until Frisby and Brown showed up with knowledge of what was even back there that they had any thought of ‘going in’ on their UTVs.
So did ‘Incident within an Incident’ commander Todd Abel even ASK Frisby and Brown to do this risky thing?… or were they on autopilot at that point and doing whatever the hell they wanted to do?
If someone was SERIOUSLY injured… there was no way they could have ‘hauled them out’ with that Polaris Ranger. It would have STILL required an airlift to get ANY injured person out of that ‘boondock’ that day.
I think they were more concerned with locating the crew and then getting the Helicopter in before dark.
Remember they first went to the pile of water Backpacks.
then over where they could see down in the Canyon.
You are right While they could have given some aid they did not have the capability to do much else, but direct others into the site.
I appreciate this conversation and I’ve learned some things from it.
Everything I’m reading about EMT’s etc is saying more and more firefighters are obtaining certification of some kind for both practical reasons and “career” reasons. It’s not quite a guarantee of getting hired, but it’s a huge point-adder. And for leadership positions, well……………..pretty much required these days.
I’m guessing both Frisby and Trew were EMTs. And probably the Three Prescotters as well, all things considered.
But the question I was REALLY wanting to hear from FIRE-FIGHTERS was what I asked about what happens when other fire-fighters are in peril and you think you may have an urgent need and some kind of, however slight, window to find/help them.
Does that affect how you prioritize the 10/18 LCES? Not theoretically or ideally, but REALLY.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 4, 2014 at 9:23 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> NOTE: If a propane tank is venting it wont explode.
>> When they get hot and do not vent you are in trouble.
Just confirming that. It’s true. The moment I saw those tanks venting on a regular pattern ( straight UP and NOT ‘sideways’ ) I didn’t get the feeling they were in any danger at all.
Oddly enough, though… in one of the OTHER new Hulburd videos… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd are looking down the road to the west. Jason Clawson has walked up to them and he NOW has his ‘full pack’ and ‘fire shelter’ on him and it looks like he is thinking of walking farther west.
At that moment… a very LARGE ( and LOUD ) ‘venting’ event takes place a few hundred yards away at a house on the left side of Shrine Road. You can see it ‘blasting up’ at least 40 feet into the trees.
THAT is the moment when KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell says ( with a fair amount of trepidation in his voice )…
“I don’t wanna go in there right now”.
Apparently Clawson and Hulburd agree because shortly after that is when all three of the men turn around and we see Hulburd filming that LONG walk to where their UTVs are parked… WITHOUT turning off his camera.
It sounds worse than it is if you haven’t been around Propane tanks when they vent the gasses are ignited and burn so not filling any area with gas.
Have sprayed water on several propane tanks to cool them down while they are venting. Many rural fire departments run into it all the time..
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 3, 2014 at 11:25 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> And now I’m thinking about how WTKTT wrote somewhere downstream:
>>
>> “This line from ( Ball’s ) BR Unit Log has always been important…
>>
>> “Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner
>> of manzanita and lockwood.”
>>
>> “(NOTE: The sentence immediately following this in Ball’s
>> Log has been totally REDACTED. ).”
>>
>> I wonder if that next sentence had anything, maybe, to do with
>> Hernandez and the dozer?
I will bet that it DID.
Here is that ENTIRE section from BR Hotshot Cory Ball’s Unit Log…
EMPHASIS is MINE…
——————————————————————————
1600: BRIHC disengaging to safety zone ( Ranch House Restaurant )
BRIHC one ( Brian Frisby ) informs Structure Group One ( Gary Cordes )
they are pushing engines everyone out of subdivision.
(XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX – Entire next line REDACTED )
Structure group one assigns me and ONE OTHER to locate possibility
of DOZER LINE to southwest of Yarnell.
Acquire ATV: travel into ( Glen Ilah ) subdivision back to DOZER LINE.
Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in ( Glen Ilah ) subdivision.
Notify structure group one ( Gary Cordes ) about fire and structures on
corner of manzanita and lockwood. ( XXXXXXX – Rest of line REDACTED )
(XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX – Entire next line REDACTED )
Started evacuations of ( Glen Ilah ) subdivision.
Helitanker drops water near manzanita junction.
Inquiry about helitanker availablity.
Told there are other priorities ( XXXXXXXXX – Rest of line REDACTED ).
( XXXXXXX – Next line REDACTED ).
Evacuations for the next couple of hours.
———————————————————————————-
So this is the entry we were talking about…
Notify structure group one ( Gary Cordes ) about fire and structures on
corner of manzanita and lockwood ( XXXXXXX – Rest of line REDACTED )
(XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX – Entire next line REDACTED )
It actually contains TWO different REDACTIONS.
The rest of the sentence following ‘conrner of manzanita and lockwood’ is fully redacted… and then so is the entire next line FOLLOWING that.
The next Unit Log entry AFTER this is…
“Started evacuations of ( Glen Ilah ) subdivision.”
…so the CONTEXT of the REDACTED parts just before it still must have been surrounding that moment we can now even hear in the new Hulburd video when Cordes was passing Ball’s report directly to TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel. It was about the ‘fire’ at intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita and Cory Ball not being able to make it back to the DOZER LINE, ( and the DOZER operator? ) at that point…. and maybe also about that fact that the dozer operator had NO RADIO and there was no way to contact him at that point.
I don’t know what else Cory Ball might have been including in that transmission other than something about telling Cordes that the ‘scouting mission’ for emergency DOZER LINE that Cordes had given to Ball wasn’t going to happen…
And I can’t think of any other reason WHY someone might have thought that whatever else Cory Ball was reporting there was ‘so sensitive’ that it needed to be REDACTED other than it had something to do with either ‘Granite Mountain’… or this PLAN of Cordes’ about building emergency DOZER line in the west Glen Ilah / Boulder Springs Ranch area.
Make no mistake.
There are a LOT of ANSWERS to a LOT of things about that day sitting right there in those Blue Ridge Unit Logs… but someone doesn’t want anyone to SEE them.
Copy.
I’ve been wondering, since the filing of the lawsuits, why CYFD was named in them. I didn’t think Todd Abel was a strong enough “target,” for a variety of reasons, all things considered.
And I don’t think, at this point, the lawyers, at that time, were aware of what we’re talking about now. But maybe they were. Who knows??
But it’s looking more and more, to me, that Gary Cordes may be finding himself in some fairly hot hot water going forward.
I find myself wondering, as I think you are also, when Cordes first communicated to Granite Mountain his “plan.”
On the other hand, I keeping insisting that we remember to LOOK UP.
Gary Cordes most likely wouldn’t have found himself in the overwhelmed situation he was in if…
this fire had been properly managed/resourced in the first place.
And, as I write this, I’m remembering somewhere today you wrote about how Gary Cordes may have not had enough “creds” to have been exercising the kind of authority/span of control he was having to exercise that day. Thanks for that observation.
Hmmm. I seem to have posted this in the wrong place. Brain-deadness. Sorry. I’ll copy and paste it upstream to the right place..
Robert the Second said DECEMBER 4, 2014 AT 11:56 AM
SNIP
“Kenneth M. Jordan December 3, 2014 at 11:37 pm
Greetings fellow students and or professors of fire, This is the “Kenny Jordan” (recently retired as Superintendent after 40 years of wild land fire experience,) mentioned in this last statement concerning the Clear Creek Incident.”
Ken Jordan was interviewed this spring for a project called “The Smokey Generation.”
“Think about what happens when you’re sitting around a campfire with friends. Stories…good storytelling is what happens. Stories that make the hair stand up on your arms; stories that make you laugh; stories that make you think and question what you believe you already know. Now, imagine those friends have personally lit thousands of acres on fire. That’s what The Smokey Generation is capturing – the stories of extraordinary people who would happily sit around a campfire with you and share their thoughts, experiences, and lessons learned. In essence, The Smokey Generation is dedicated to collecting, preserving, and sharing stories and oral histories of wildland firefighters from all walks of life. It is dedicated to telling the story of fire.”
Ken’s interviews included his experience of a shelter deployment and his take-aways from that, and his very relevant personal perspective on what happened with the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Well worth watching.
http://thesmokeygeneration.com/?page_id=361
The Sierra Hotshots were deployed to the Yarnell Hill Fire on Monday July 1.
Hotshot crews from Central Valley sent to Arizona
Monday, July 01, 2013
“FRESNO, Calif. — Hotshot crews from the Central Valley were called out Monday morning to help battle the ongoing blaze in Arizona.
Monday morning for about an hour, the Sierra Hotshots talked about the tragedy. They are hoping to learn more about the evolving conditions that forced the group to use their last resort protection.
Training was cut short Monday when the Sierra Hotshot Crew got the call to head to Arizona. The group of 20 specialized firefighters are trained to deal with complex, and vast wild land fires. From May until November fighting fires takes crews all over the United States.”
“Superintendent Ken Jordan has been a hotshot for 40 years. This fire shelter saved his life in 1994 While fighting the Big Creek fire near Shaver Lake.
“We were up for about 54 and a half hours and the fire blew up below us,” Jordan said.””
“They pulled away from the central valley with heavy hearts but grateful to help finish the job for their fallen brothers.”
http://abclocal.go.com/story?section=news/local&id=9158629
Marti,
Thanks for the post on this.
You’re welcome!
Thanks from me as well something new to check out….
There’s a BUNCH of interviews there with hotshots, various levels of experience and doing various things now.
Really, really interesting and well produced.
Regarding the memorial. I just came across this:
11/28/2014 6:01:00 AM
Surviving Hotshot: Keep site ‘simple and sacred’
Joanna Dodder Nellans
The Daily Courier
“The first public meeting of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board was sometimes emotional Monday, as board members and families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots began sorting out what should be placed at the site where the Hotshots perished last year.”
“”We all just want to see something that’s beautiful, but it doesn’t have to be fancy,” said Amanda Marsh, widow of the Hotshots’ Superintendent Eric Marsh.
It should be “simple and sacred” like other sites where wildland firefighters have died, said Brendan McDonough, the only one of the 20 Granite Mountain Hotshots who survived because he was acting as a lookout in a different location.”
Deborah Pfingston, mother of fallen hotshot Andrew Ashcraft, asked the board to keep it “simple, clean and pure.” She was one of the few people in the audience. State parks officials didn’t publicly announce the meeting until Monday.
“This site is intimate,” Pfingston added. “This is where our sons and husbands lost their lives.”
“Several people, including Marsh, McDonough and Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis, said the site needs to help educate wildland firefighters.
“I think the crew wants people to learn from what happened that day,” said Willis, the crew’s direct supervisor who helped create it.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots visited other sites where fellow wildland firefighters perished, Marsh noted, to educate themselves and “to pay their respects in their own way.”
Pfingston asked the board to protect the fire lines that the hotshots dug so they also could help teach young firefighters about the scene.”
Doesn’t sound like any of them are in any hurry to give up their vision of a public, educational, respectful memorial site.
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=138864&fb_action_ids=10152848030385390&fb_action_types=og.comments
I wonder exactly what it is that Willis expects the ‘ young firefighters’ to ‘learn’ while visiting the site.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 4, 2014 at 1:43 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Doesn’t sound like any of them are in any hurry to give up
>> their vision of a public, educational, respectful memorial site.
Well… actually… the article states flat-out that SOME of the Board Members are still not ‘on board’ with that idea.
(Quote) “Some board members said they support restricting the site to only hotshot family members and wildland firefighters, but others including McDonough and Willis said that won’t be possible.”
Both Darrell Willis and Brendan McDonough are now saying exactly what I said a few posts back… that it is ‘unrealistic’ to think you could ‘lock up the site’ and prevent members of the public from visiting it.
Notice that ‘Amanda Marsh’ is not automatically included there with Willis and McDonough as far as agreeing it would ‘unrealistic’ to restrict access.
That statement means they are still ‘debating’ that issue… and still haven’t decided if the small group of ‘widows’ that petitioned State Rep. Karen Fann will be able to ‘buy the land’… and that whether or not what is ‘built’ there will ever be open to the public is still very much ‘undecided’.
State Rep. Karen is the one who fought for that ‘rider’ to be added to the bill and has alway ssaid she supports the ‘widows’ being able to buy the land ( and control access ) 100 percent.
Even as late as this meeting just last Monday… Rep. Karen Fann gave a perfectly ‘ambiguous’ statement which doesn’t deny she still would like to see that small group of ‘widows’ own the land and control access to it…
From the article…
——————————————
“My number-one goal is to preserve the site,” said Arizona Rep. Karen Fann of Prescott, who knew many of the firefighters and their families. She sponsored last year’s legislation that created the board and set aside $500,000 to buy as many as 250 acres of state trust land where the site is located. Money to buy access or a memorial must come from separate donations.
——————————————
Notice that the article forgets to mention that it was State Rep. Karen Fann herself who ALSO made sure the legislation included an ‘option’ for that small group of ‘widows’ to purchase the land themselves.
According to the final legislation that was passed by both Houses and signed by the Arizona Governor… It’s the FIRST thing this new ‘Memorial Committee’ is supposed to decide.
Whether or not the small group of ‘widows’ should be able to purchase the land.
From the article…
————————————————————–
Trespass issues
The relatively remote site where the hotshots died just west of Yarnell currently is inaccessible without trespassing, but Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm and Yarnell Hill Recovery Group Chair Chuck Tidey said plenty of people are doing it.
“People in the community have taken on a bad attitude because of it,” Tidey said.
Some board members said they support restricting the site to only hotshot family members and wildland firefighters, but others including McDonough and Willis said that won’t be possible.
The county government has put up signs saying “no access to incident site” but that hasn’t stopped people.
“You will not keep people out of there,” Willis said. “It’s best for us to at least understand that.”
Pfingston agreed.
“I find it a peaceful place,” she said. “I go there a lot. There is no way we’re going to stop people from going.” She likes the idea of requiring people to hike several miles to visit, however.
—————————————————————
So it sounds like the ‘Memorial Committee’ could end up with a ‘hybrid’ plan.
The money allocated by the State of Arizona WILL be used to build a ‘Memorial’ at the site itself… but the small group of ‘widows’ might still be able to be the defacto ‘owners’ of the land and be deciding, themselves, WHO gets to visit the site.
It would be nice to know when the NEXT ( and subsequent ) meetings of this committee are supposed to be held… but something tells me they don’t really WANT the public to attend ( or the public’s input ) and every time they have a meeting they will be doing the absolute MINIMUM amount of notification.
We’ll see!
It said the next meeting would be in December.
I still think the folks who should be following this the most closely are wildland fire-fighters.
I’ll continue to remain cynical unless they do.
Reply to FIRE20+ post on December 4, 2014 at 9:31 am
>> FIRE20+ said…
>>
>> Marti said:
>> “I was thinking, “Why are we talking about this when we
>> need to be talking about the 21 Aaron Hulburd videos??????”
>>
>> Oh, that’s right.
>>
>> The Gary Cordes plan. It needed a dozer.”
Yes. We actually really ARE still talking about the ‘new’ videos here.
Regardless of some of the actual words in the radio exchange we only now can finally hear for ourselves that took place between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and his TLFD2(t) Tyson Esquibel… there is no doubt that we hear the two of them ‘agreeing’ to a (quote) “good plan” that somehow involved Engines at the BSR and also somehow might have involved ‘Granite Mountain’… since we can clearly hear Cordes including them in that radio conversation with Esquibel.
This then ‘ties back’ to all the other evidence that SPGS1 Gary Cordes was also instructing Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to ‘scout around’ to the west of Glen Ilah and out towards the Boulder Springs Ranch for some kind of last-ditch-effort ‘firebreak’ or ‘line’ to help the fire skirt AROUND Glen Ilah and not enter it.
All of the ‘plans’ that seem to have ‘centered’ on the Boulder Springs Ranch in this critical timeframe *MAY* have had more to do with WHY ‘Granite Mountain’ was trying to ‘get there’ in that same timeframe.
So all of this involves ‘the dozer’… and whether or not it even really was available to Cordes and/or Ball at that time.
If it was NOT. If it really had ‘moved north’ as was requested by OPS some time before Cordes’ “Aw SHIT Ridge” trigger point was met… then the LACK of having a dozer down there *might* have had something to do with SPGS1 Gary Cordes trying to use whatever Hotshot resources he had available to help with this last-minute line building there near the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Remember… Gary Cordes is the only one in ‘fire command’ to ever actually admit that he had ‘no doubts whatsoever’ that Granite Mountain was heading for the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ and that he believed they had (quote) “plenty of time to get there”.
In the new radio conversation that we can hear regarding some kind of ‘plan’ for Boulder Springs Ranch… it’s actually perfectly possible that SPGS1 Gary Cordes might have thought that Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were ALREADY THERE when he was having this ‘new’ conversation with Tyson Esquibel.
If he has testified that he always thought they had “plenty of time to get there”… then he really might have thought they had already ARRIVED at the Boulder Springs Ranch when we now hear him asking Tyson Esquibel to “send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch”.
So anything to do with Cordes and his ‘plans’ and Ball and the dozer and whether it was even ‘still there’ in this timeframe really is worth talking about ( again ).
In that context… let me just say that a lot of people have been assuming that whoever was operating that dozer was also the one who got ‘caught in the powerlines’ later ( according to Dan Philbin’s Unit Log ) and then also ‘pushed that dozer line’ out from the Boulder Springs Ranch to the deployment site.
According to Darrell Willis… that is NOT the case.
Darrell Willis told ADOSH investigators it was ‘Dean Stewart’ who actually took over the dozer work sometime after the deployment and who pushed that dozer line out to the deployment site.
Dean Stewart is one of OPS1 Todd Abel’s long time ‘Engine mates’ and one of Abel’s best friends. They are seen ‘hunting’ and ‘cooking out’ together in many, many photos on both Todd Abel’s and Dean Stewart’s public ‘Facebook’ pages.
From Darrell Willis’ first ADOSH interview on August 19, 2013…
————————————————————————-
1089 A: Ah, I walked up to Todd and I said, “Did I hear that correct?” And he said,
1090 “Yeah you heard.” At that point I was done. I mean, I mean, I made two
1091 phone calls again. I called my wife and I called, um, the Fire Chief and told
1092 him what’s going on and, ah, sat there for another hour or so and determined
1093 that, um, when it cooled off, ah, you know, I didn’t want to see the guys. But I
1094 wanted to protect their honorably, protect them because I knew that nobody
1095 was gonna get in there that night.
1096
1097 Q1: Mm-hm.
1098
1099 A: So a few of us stuck around and went to the Helms Ranch. Parked there and,
1100 ah, waited until the Sheriff’s investigation team came in the next morning.
1101 After they put that dozer line in.
1102
1103 Q1: Yeah. So you guys stayed right there at the Helm Ranch out there.
1104
1105 A: Mm-hm.
1106
1107 Q1: Um, and they put the dozer line in during the night?
1108
1109 A: During the night. Wanted to have it – there was a couple thoughts that was
1110 going through our mind. One, we didn’t want – we wanted to get the Sheriff in
1111 and out of there. He said he could do that really quick.
1112
1113 Q1: Yeah.
1114
1115 A: That we wouldn’t have news helicopters videoing all that. We wanted to get
1116 that done early, early. So the decision was made to put a dozer line so we
1117 could get the Sheriff in and get the body removal team out. In and out before
1118 the helicopters. The other thought was that we get air attack up at first light to
1119 keep all the news helicopters out of there. We knew we couldn’t keep them
1120 height-wise but we could keep them from getting a really good shot at them.
1121
1122 Q1: Um, prior – prior to this point in time, ah, when you’re waiting, can you hear
1123 air attack on the radio as you’re monitoring the radio and was there anything
1124 going on that you could hear that made any sense about what?
1125
1126 A: You know what, I gotta just be honest with you. I wasn’t focused at that point
1127 in time. I was, you know, all I was waiting to hear was they’re okay. They’re
1128 okay.
1129
1130 Q1: Mm-hm.
1131
1132 A: I really wasn’t engaged in…
1133
1134 Q1: Yeah.
1135
1136 A: …suppression or…
1137
1138 Q1: Right.
1139
1140 A: …anything. I – I pretty much just given it over. I was just a body standing there
1141 waiting for news.
1142
1143 Q1: Yeah. Um, so and you don’t know who actually took the dozer in that night?
1144
1145 A: I do.
1146
1147 Q1: Who was that?
1148
1149 A: Um, Dean – worked for Central.
1150
1151 Q: Marquez?
1152
1153 A: No. It was, um…
1154
1155 Q2: What was the name?
1156
1157 A: No that was – he was a division out there. He works for Central Yavapai.
1158
1159 Q1: Okay.
1160
1161 A: Dean Stewart.
1162
1163 Q1: Dean Stewart.
1164
1165 A: Works for Central Yavapai. He’s the dozer boss and they had flagged it in. I
1166 think him and a couple guys from the Prescott National Forest flagged in a
1167 dozer line.
1168
1169 Q1: Okay.
1170
1171 A: And they just pushed it up and then pushed the whole flat area where that flag
1172 is and stuff.
1173
1174 Q1: Right. Right.
1175
1176 A: Just to that point.
———————————————————————
So it was ‘Dean Stewart’ who took over the ‘dozer boss’ job following the deployment and was the one who pushed the line out to the deployment site.
Makes you wonder if ( perhaps ) the person who had been running that dozer most of the day either just ‘timed out’ and had to be replaced… OR… might have actually needed to have been replaced since he rode out the burnover in the dozer and might have even been slightly ( or even seriously? ) injured.
WTKTT
You are stretching it with that last paragraph. Way out on a limb……
Also the Dozer Boss Dean Stewart was in charge of the Dozer not a operator…..
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT
>> You are stretching it with that last paragraph. Way out on a limb……
I don’t think so.
Until we know EXACTLY what happened to that dozer ( and its operator )… I think it’s plausible to believe he *MIGHT* have actually suffered some injuries that day… even if it was just smoke inhalation.
You, yourself, just said down below…
—————————————————
Getting to a good safety zone is much better than sitting it out in a cab dozer or otherwise. Burn overs or burn around can still destroy equipment, Not saying the area was not good enough to stay in just not the best place to be.
Over the years many a Dozer and Engine have been burned or severely singed in open areas with 50 FT. plus flame lengths.
—————————————————–
There has never been any report of injuries of a dozer operator
I think that is a little far out there.
My context was in moving or staying you your self said the area was large enough to be safe in.
Any other injuries from the fire or burn overs on the 30th would have also been
covered by the investigation team. That is SOP and would have been mentioned by OSA investigation. Burned Equipment or Injured people that occurred on the 30th. My reasons for saying it did not happen.
I think the difference here is that you are still showing a little more ‘faith’ in the investigative process that followed this tragedy than I am willing to totally adhere to.
I think it’s perfectly possible that someone COULD have suffered some ‘injuries’ that day and we still don’t have a clue about it.
Yes… I believe the area where the loboy/dozer might have had to ‘ride out’ the burnaround would have been ‘suvivable’ ( and Google Maps even today indicates that )…
…but that doesn’t mean whoever this dozer operator was wouldn’t have suffered SOME injuries ( smoke inhalation? ) that would have required him to at least get ‘checked out’ at a hospital.
Until we know the FULL story on this… almost anything is possible.
I agree with the full story but I do not believe another injury or burn over on 6/30/13 would have been totally ignored by any investigation
from either appointed group.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 4, 2014 at 6:19 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I agree with the full story but I do not believe
>> another injury
I really HOPE you are right. I certainly HOPE if that dozer operator had to ‘ride out a burnaround’ out there in the Sesame area that he was NOT injured in any way… and THAT is why we haven’t heard about it.
However… as for this part of your reply…
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> burn over on 6/30/13 would have been totally
>> ignored by any investigation from either
>> appointed group.
That already happened ( pretty much ).
NEITHER of the TWO ‘official’ investigation reports made it clear HOW CLOSE the firefighters in the Harper Canyon area came to be being just more bodies that would have had to have been hauled out from that fire the next day.
No one was actually really hearing the full details of how CLOSE that was to being ‘more fatalities’ until almost the one year anniversary of the fire.
So it would not surprise me, in the least, if we still come to find there were OTHER very ‘close calls’ that day that we STILL haven’t heard about ( like the dozer operator ).
If as you say he was ask to go North Then that is what happened but again no follow up info.
No deployment or no injuries no investigation follow up
just another day in a wild land fire fighters life.
Injuries are the investigation factor.
any way moving on>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Look at the 209’s filed for the YHF.
6/29 1959: No Injuries this reporting period, No Injuries to date, No Fatalities.
6/30: No 209 filed (however at the end of this SAIR file, they include a 209 for the Dean Peak Fire from 6/30.)
7/01 0007: 1 Injury this reporting period, 1 Injury to date, 19 Fatalities.
7/02-7/05: Same throughout: 0 Injuries this reporting period, 1 Injury to date, 19 Fatalities.
So…it appears as if somebody, somewhere on the YHF did get injured, sought medical attention and was reported on the financials for the fire.
These 209’s also show the resources assigned, like dozers.
Well, there WAS this, from:
19 firefighters dead in Yarnell Hill Fire
By Jackee Coe, Laurie Merrill and Michelle Ye Hee Lee
The Republic | azcentral.com
Mon Jul 1, 2013 12:22 PM
“The Wickenburg Community Hospital has been treating residents with minor injuries and those who have suffered smoke inhalation, said Roxie Glover, director of community relations at the hospital.
Glover said the emergency room started filling up about 6:30 and “it’s been pretty steady ever since.”
Those with more serious injuries are being transported to other medical centers.”
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130630crews-fighting-small-fires-around-Arizona.html
I think there was a lot of confusion with the burn over and injuries
being reported which ended up being all about the GM Hot shots and no one else.
I will leave it there as other than any minor injuries of Fire fighters no burn or serious injuries were reported. That is part of the investigation report as I have said. Cover up theories included.
Oh, and ALSO, there was this, from:
19 firefighters killed battling Arizona blaze
July 1, 2013
by Jackee Coe and Laurie Merrill, The Arizona Republic
archive.stevenspointjournal.com
July 1, 2013
YARNELL, Ariz.
“Wickenburg Community Hospital is expecting to treat about eight firefighters who were among about 22 injured battling the fast-moving, 2,000-acre Yarnell Hill Fire that has burned through have the town, officials said Sunday evening.
The spokeswoman for Wickenburg hospital, Roxie Glover, said there are reports of as many as 22 firefighters being injured. About eight from that group were headed to the Wickenberg facility, some were being air lifted to a Phoenix burn unit and others were being transported to Yavapai Regional Medical Center, Glover said.
Jim Tavary, CEO of Wickenburg hospital, said his facility was put on alert to expect several injured firefighters but did not know their conditions or the extent of their injuries.
“We are setting up an incident command,” Tavary said.
It’s unclear if any in this missing group is among the dead firefighters.”
http://archive.stevenspointjournal.com/print/usatodayarticle/2477469
I’m glad somebody checked into those reports!
I think (off the top of my head–I don’t have time to do any more DIGGING) the entanglement with the power line happened around 7 PM.
And, yeah, I can see how Justin would have left the fire, all things considered, and the Yavapai crew took over the dozer. Or even had the second dozer come down from the Incident Command post to put that line into the deployment site. Since there’s no mentions of any dozer activities up north during that night.
CALL THE DOZER THING DEAD
Until we have more Facts and verification
We are chasing rabbits I agree………..
Bob, I just have to say.
I spent a ton of my valuable time over the past three days doing what you are now calling “chasing rabbits.”
I did that because the last time we talked about this was various versions of a long time ago.
And because we were discussing a very important conversation in one of the new videos that needed, in order to be placed in context, a re-look at the things that conversation was referencing.
And because, since we had, at various times in the past, talked about this stuff but not really pursued it to more of a conclusion, we all had various misperceptions in our various heads about what was going on at that time when the dozer and its operator “disappeared.”
(And both of them are STILL, at this time, somewhat in the category of “disappeared.”)
And neither the SAIT or the ADOSH considered this “disappearance” (during the blowup of the fire and its burning over of Glen Ilah) within their purview, despite what you are saying now about investigator’s Standard Operating Procedures.
That doesn’t bother you?
One of those misperceptions being the name of the person involved. Who, because nobody “chased the rabbits,” we’ve been mis-naming for months.
Another being confusion about which dozers were located where and when, and, thus, what could have been possible and what could have been impossible.
If we’re going to intelligently and responsibly discuss things that emerge, and especially things that surprise us, we need to have a grasp of what’s possible and what isn’t.
We can’t do that if our individual and collective minds are contaminated with misperceptions and mistakes in identities and such.
As all of ours were, including yours, as we began this conversation about what Cordes was, apparently, communicating about in that video.
So, I have to say, I actually resent what you are saying here about “chasing rabbits.”
Sometimes it really does require a serious amount of “chasing rabbits” to discover what actually happened on this fire, since the official investigations didn’t bother to do what needed to be a GREAT DEAL of investigating these, in my humble opinion, VERY important things.
I was just going to ignore your comment. But I decided, after it slow-burned me all day, to speak my truth.
>> Marti wrote…
>>
>> If we’re going to intelligently and responsibly discuss
>> things that emerge, and especially things that
>> surprise us, we need to have a grasp of what’s
>> possible and what isn’t.
Exactly.
And sometimes achieving that essential ‘grasp’ gets really, really boring. That’s just the way it is.
“Once you have eliminated the impossible… whatever remains ( however improbable ) must be the TRUTH”.
Back to work.
Or how bout this. If you dont want to contribute or dont see value in a thread, stay off it! I dont appreciate that Bob. Next time how about if I tell you when what youre talking about something becomes a dead subject (bad choice of words)? Think that might piss you off?
Whoh Every body you misunderstood me I was agreeing with
Marti It was not meant to be sarcastic in any way.
Sorry you took it that way I truly apologize.
WTKTT, you wrote:
“In the new radio conversation that we can hear regarding some kind of ‘plan’ for Boulder Springs Ranch… it’s actually perfectly possible that SPGS1 Gary Cordes might have thought that Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were ALREADY THERE when he was having this ‘new’ conversation with Tyson Esquibel.
If he has testified that he always thought they had “plenty of time to get there”… then he really might have thought they had already ARRIVED at the Boulder Springs Ranch when we now hear him asking Tyson Esquibel to “send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch”.
I find this really intriguing, and, at this moment, rather possible.
I really don’t think Cordes had ANY IDEA at this time, while he was, visually and mentally, doing evacuations in that little neighborhood in north Yarnell, what was going on in the Granite Mountain/Boulder Springs Ranch/Glen Ilah area of the fire when he was discussing “his plan” with either Esquibel or Ball.
Looking back at the Yarnell Gamble video. I don’t have a credible timestamp on that. What do you have? If so, where is it in relationship to the above communications?
(And I will put my bit in my mouth and refrain from asking what you have been thinking about who asked the question that resulted in Eric’s reply)
I’m just asking about the TIMING of it, at this point.
Marti… see a new ( long ) parent comment about this just above.
The YARNELL-GAMBLE video was definitely shot at 4:27:16 PM.
There are multiple EXIF timestamps embedded in the that Apple
Quicktime movie shot with an iPhone 4S with version 5.1.1 of IOS onboard.
One of the timestamps is coming from the GPS chips onboard the iPhone.
The new ‘Cordes / Esquibel’ conversation that includes talk about
‘Boulder Springs Ranch’, ‘Granite Mountain’ and ‘Engines’ was taken
at approximately 4:35.
So that’s just an 8 minute separation between the two.
Lots more above about this ( and what it could really mean ).
This is the second series of postings from the Black Widow Spider (BWS) Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy’s website blog. The first will be Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy’s reply to Ken Jordan’s response and the second will be Ken Jordan’s reply to Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy. Again, you will see the real agenda of the BWS and her intent to obfuscate, lie, prevaricate, and promote her deluded point of view instead of seeking the truth as she falsely claims.
The yhfblogadministrator is obviously Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy.
“yhfblogadministrator Post authorDecember 4, 2014 at 5:30 am
“Thank you for the comment. If you would like to share further information or your opinions we encourage you to do so. The goal is to be accurate as best as possible. Mr. Jordan – Was it inaccurate that you yelled at or were angry with Fred that day?”
Here is Ken Jordan’s reply to the above by Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy:
“Kenneth M. Jordan December 4, 2014 at 4:07 pm
I Never yelled at the Payson Crewboss that day, nor was I upset at him, thats not the way we roll, never has been, I like to consider myself as a professional wild land firefighter, yelling or getting angry with someone in an overhead position or anyone else for that matter, is unprofessional, unsafe and counterproductive no matter how unacceptable the tactics and or strategy might be, or how bad the mistake or decision was. By yelling at someone, or giving them the silent treatment we stand the chance of creating a communications barrier with that person effecting the C in LCES and creating an even more dangerous situation. Hotshot crews are designed to either work together with adjoining forces or function as a single resource if needed and turn down any unacceptable assignment. To depend on anyone else besides ourselves for our own safety or the safety of our module is extremely dangerous.
FYI… our crew policy had always been to accept responsibility for almost anything that transpires on the incident, from our newest new guy all the way up to myself, the crew boss, if one makes a mistake, gets hurt, or makes a less than perfect decision, we all take responsibility, but the buck stops with me the module leader. IE: if our red Bags are burnt, there is not a proper safety zone ,anchor point, updated weather report, bad communications, inadequate lookout etc, It is our responsibility to make mitigate the problem, , turn down the assignment or come up with an alternate solution to the controversial assignment. I would never ever victimize myself by blaming a near miss or critical fire line situation on someone else or “yelling” at them in frustration.
My hope is that we might draw a parallel between some of my my comments concerning the Clear Creek Inc. and what happened on the Yarnell tragedy, I would try and do this without being specific and maybe dishonoring the firefighters or offending the families who lost their lives. They have been through hell and need a lifetime to heal. With any this I hope to continue to try and accomplish our shared objective of learning from it and saving firefighter lives in the future…. otherwise like I said, those Hotshots would have lost their lives in vain”
More lies and deceptions by Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy debunked and veriifed by the one who was there, Ken Jordan, Sierra IHC Superintendent. This man was the one that .Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy LIED about and said she had talked with him.
In order to clear my name of the many false accusations by the one posting as Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,AND to reveal the truth about what occurred that day on the Salmone NF, Idaho, Clear Creek Fire, I am posting two responses (separately) to her ‘Alleged Recklessness (or “prior bad decisions with good outcomes”): Fred Schoeffler and the Clear Creek Fire” posting on her one-sided website blog, http://yarnellhillfireblog.wordpress.com site. BTW, she posts as Logical Phallacy there.
These postings will be from KEN JORDAN, the former Superintendent of the Sierra Hot Shot Crew that Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy intentionally FALSELY stated, that Jordan made claims about arguing with the Payson IHC Superintendent about an alleged anchor point. FACT: She actually NEVER talked with him and LIED instead to serve her agenda of misrepresentation, confusion, and prevarication.
“Kenneth M. Jordan December 3, 2014 at 11:37 pm
Greetings fellow students and or professors of fire, This is the “Kenny Jordan” (recently retired as Superintendent after 40 years of wild land fire experience,) mentioned in this last statement concerning the Clear Creek Incident.
I would like you to consider the fact that attempting to discredit a retired IHC Superintendent, by falsely utilizing alledged comments or situations using my name as a witness, will by no means improve our situation as firefighters who are striving to save other firefighters lives in the future.
I would propose to you that each statement, from every wild wildland firefighter who has an opinion, dialog or theory about near miss or fatal fire line situations, no matter how offensive to others, be considered, utilized, or at the very least, respected in our debates, even to the point of causing embarrassment, humiliation or hurt feelings. This is how we learn, this is how we survive.
If we do not approach each situation in a objective manner, no matter how hard it is to digest, consider everyones input, no matter what their reputation or status, and then glean what we can from that input, then the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew would have lost their lives in vain.
If you would concede to this statement, and post it, then I will be obliged to reveal the facts about what really transpired on the Clear Creek incident and my opinion and recommendations on the Yarnell tragedy .
Please consider that many people might be offended to the point of litigation or at the least demand an apology, after their name was used in such a manner. But I would much rather us join together and try, as a team of concerned professionals to prevent such tragedies in the future,….. You in?”
You can clearly see that what she posted on her bog were LIES, unadulterated LIES.
bob
I have a question for you. If you do not want to respond, that is up to you.
Are you looking at different material than the rest of us? You state that the cat was loaded on the lowboy. I myself have seen no such written statement in the publicly released information provided here at IM.
I am asking you a serious, direct question?
No the only thing I am going back to this summer where we knew the cat had gone back to the Lowboy and there was information that it had loaded and moved.
Cant find the discussion or any written statements. So stayed with the lowboy and then went back to work. We have two scenarios and not much proof of either.
It may have been a discussion thread when we were trying to find what happened to Ball and the Dozer? We discussed it and left it several miles back. If the Dozer was at the lowboy and had time to load and move that would have been a better scenario than waiting out the fire as that would have been a much less safe choice unless there was no time to move.
We still have very little info from the location at the lowboy till the Dozer was found wrapped in power cable. My scenario is open to discussion as are the others.
The Lowboys are left with ramps down it dose not take long to load and move the Blade and
Grabbers on the back would hole the Dozer in place for a shot move. So did the Dozer Move or Not cant prove it one way or the other.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 4, 2014 at 8:42 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> No the only thing I am going back to this summer where
>> we knew the cat had gone back to the Lowboy and there
>> was information that it had loaded and moved.
Correct… but that ‘information’ about it ‘moving’ is slim and questionable.
I believe the ONLY reference we have had to go on for that that could even be construed to mean the loboy/dozer got OUT of the Sesame area before the fire hit there is that one strange/obscure entry in Gary Cordes’ YIN notes where he says “Dozer was sitting on the road staged”.
Problem is… that is the LAST note in Cordes’ YIN interview notes, it is in the middle of a bunch of other general and disjointed comments… and so there is no way to know what TIMEFRAME he was referring to with that statement.
See below for more about this.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Cant find the discussion or any written statements.
See below for Cordes’ YIN notes and then the Blue Ridge YIN notes.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It may have been a discussion thread when we were trying
>> to find what happened to Ball and the Dozer?
Yes. It was.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If the Dozer was at the lowboy and had time to load and
>> move that would have been a better scenario than waiting
>> out the fire as that would have been a much less safe
>> choice unless there was no time to move.
See below for more about this. Even today… Google maps with post-fire satellite imagery shows that the area where the loboy was staged all day would have been a survivable place to be. It was a large CLEAR area and there was a structure there that never burned or was damaged in any way.
Not the best place to ‘ride out’ the burnaround… but there is every indication the dozer operator would have been OK there as long as he was inside the cab of the dozer. He may have even been able to get inside that building that was there.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> We still have very little info from the location at the lowboy
>> till the Dozer was found wrapped in power cable.
Correct.
>> My scenario is open to discussion as are the others.
>>
>> The Lowboys are left with ramps down it dose not take
>> long to load and move the Blade and Grabbers on the back
>> would hole the Dozer in place for a shot move.
>>
>> So did the Dozer Move or Not cant prove it one way or the other.
We really don’t know.
There have ALWAYS been the following TWO conflicting pieces
of evidence that each suggest something different…
* GARY CORDES’ YIN NOTES
From Page 3 ( of 3 pages ) of Gary Cordes’ SAIT Interview Notes…
—————————————————-
16:00
* Entered the subdivision.
* Pulled 4 individuals out (2 old people in PJ’s). Moved them to the staging area.
* Had a couple of sheriff’s office people pulling people out also.
* I watched the wind change directions 5 times.
* 3 engines working on the shrine area got pinched. The crews that had hiked in couldn’t find their buggies when they came out because a water tender guy had moved their vehicles.
* Pumkin was set up the day before.
* Communications dead pockets in our area.
* Eric took Division A.
* Dozer was sitting on the road staged.
——————————————————
That FINAL one-liner sentence in Cordes’ interview notes is…
* Dozer was sitting on the road staged.
We still have NO idea what that means.
It’s the very last entry in his entire interview notes and it is ‘disjointed’.
It comes AFTER just some general comments about the Pumpkin, Com problems that day, and that Eric ‘took Division A’ so there’s no telling what TIMEFRAME the ‘dozer was staged’ comment is meant to be.
It could mean anything… including the fact that (perhaps) the loboy and the dozer DID make it out of the Sesame area before the burnover out there and it WAS ‘staged’ somewhere on Hwy 89…
…or NOT. Cordes’ could just be referring to some OTHER timeframe.
* BLUE RIDGE YIN NOTES
Then… on page 4 ( of 5 pages ) of the Blue Ridge SAIT Investigation notes there has always been this statement…
———————————————
“Ball got a quad from FD, and was trying to get on the dozer line to tie in w/ Justin to check it”
———————————————
That is Ball trying to fulfill the request/order from Cordes that he ‘scout around’ out there near the west of Glen Ilah ( and near the Boulder Springs Ranch ) for a possible ’emergency firebreak’ to try and keep the fire out of Glen Ilah.
So it is assumed ( based on this ‘plan’ Cordes’ had ) that the dozer did NOT exit the Sesame area and was out there waiting for Ball to return on the ATV for the ‘scouting mission’.
Ball never made it back out there. By the time he got the ATV from the Yarnell Fire station and was ( according to him ) “trying to get on the dozer line to tie in w/Justin”… the fire had already entered Glen Ilah and Ball got no farther west than the intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita.
That would mean the dozer and operator got ‘stuck’ out there at the south end of the Sesame area waiting for Ball to return and probably had to ‘ride out’ the ‘burnaround’ in either the cab of the dozer of the cab of the loboy trailer.
By ‘burnaround’ ( instead of ‘burnover’ ) I mean that the area where that loboy had been parked all day was actually fairly clear and fairly large and it did NOT ‘burnover’ that day. The fire went AROUND that area.
There was even a structure ( Sort of House / Barn / A-Frame ) there on the south end of that dirt area where the loboy was parked.
The structure there in that clearing where the loboy trailer had been ‘staged’ all day does not appear to have been damaged in any way. You can see this for yourself even today just by using Google Maps and looking at that area out where the pavement of Lakewood and Manzanita ends. The fire burned AROUND that area. The current satellite imagery being used by Google Maps for the Glen Ilah area is post-burn imagery.
So even if the dozer operator had to ‘ride it out’ there in that clearing, even Google satellite imagery shows that if he had stayed in the cab of either the dozer or the loboy… he probably would have been fine.
It probably would have been no worse a ‘ride’ than that video Calvin himself found on YouTube of another crew ‘riding out’ a safety zone burnover inside their vehicles… and talking and laughing about it the whole time.
First the Cordes statement led me to believe that the Dozer was staged which also meant on lowboy. could not remember what brought me to that conclusion until you noted it..
we are assuming a lot that the dozer did not load and move, except for the above statement.
Getting to a good safety zone is much better than sitting it out in a cab dozer or otherwise. Burn overs or burn around can still destroy equipment, Not saying the area was not good enough to stay in just not the best place to be.
Over the years many a Dozer and Engine have been burned or severely singed in open areas with 50 FT. plus flame lengths.
Regardless of where the dozer ACTUALLY was… the TRUTH is that the ‘fire command’ itself was so confused about that following the deployment radio traffic that SOMEONE told DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 to ALSO be ‘looking for him’ during their ‘search and rescue’ mission.
I would think that if the loboy/dozer had simply been ‘staged’ somewhere along the ‘main road’ like Cordes’ seems to have suggested in his YIN notes… then it wouldn’t have been being included in the ‘search list’ for the YCSO DPS Helicopter.
There is no doubt that DPS medic Eric Tarr thought they were ‘looking’ for 20-22 people ( Granite Mountain, DIVSA and a Dozer operator )…
…but it’s still a complete mystery who TOLD him those are the people they should be ‘looking for’ from the helicopter.
From page 25 of SAIT Investigation Notes (YIN)… Interview with crew that was onboard DPS Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’…
Cliff = Clifford Brunsting – Pilot of Ranger 58
Eric = Eric Tarr. DPS medic onboard Ranger 58
B3 = ‘Bravo 3’ – Air Attack – Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark
——————————————————–
Cliff relayed to B3 we have 19 confirmed…fatalities B3 asked. Affirm. Eric was looking for 20-22 ppl he was told it would be the crew, dozer and a DIVS. So they walked the area very well.
——————————————————–
(quote) “…he ( DPS medic Eric Tarr ) was told”
Told by WHO???
WHO was it that talked to DPS Medic Tarr and not only didn’t know that Eric Marsh WAS ‘DIVSA’ that day… but also seemed to be pretty sure dozer operator ( Justin/Joseph Hernandez? ) was ‘unaccounted for’ and might have been caught by the fire as well?
This really is just MORE evidence that the dozer did NOT ‘make it out’ of the Sesame area that day… and that it really had been ‘waiting’ back there for BR Hotshot Ball to return in the ATV for that ‘scouting mission’ that SPGS1 Gary Cordes had assigned to Ball.
When Ball couldn’t get back there… and returned to the Ranch House Restaurant… Ball might have been asking Cordes ( or others )…
“Did anybody see the DOZER come out?”
No one did… so somebody ( Cordes? ) might have said… “Holy crap… get on the horn and tell the DPS Helicopter he needs to be looking for a dozer operator out there as well”.
If in fact the Dozer was staged on the highway the search party may have been looking for a Dozer in the burned area and not a staging area and overlooked the one in the staging area as another Dozer.
Some good questions and a lot of confusion here. Created by lack of control by the Overhead.
I wrote just awhile (and now WAY down below) the following:
“Marti Reed says
DECEMBER 4, 2014 AT 11:26 AM
Hmmmmmm
Here’s an interesting post:
“Joe Hernandez July 1, 2013 · Prescott, AZ ·
I want to thank everyone for the prayers and well wishes. I am okay but I lost alot of good friends yesterday.”
SNIP
“Dani Koile Are you here? Im in Yarnell & ICP July 1, 2013 at 1:13pm
Joe Hernandez I was supposed to be. HEQB. Couldn’t find coverage. July 1, 2013 at 1:16pm”
https://www.facebook.com/joe.hernandez.92372/posts/10151702432761113”
“Marti Reed says
DECEMBER 4, 2014 AT 11:38 AM
I have absolutely no clue what that means.
So, I think what you all are posting above is relevant.
Seems Joe is the one on the resource order for HEQB (T), cuz Shumate did want both a Dozer Boss and Heavy Equipment Boss. So Joe got ordered, the order got filled, he was supposed to be there, but he “could’t find coverage”??
What would that mean?
So, yeah, I think that definitely means the dozer got sent with an operator (Justin?), but Joe didn’t make it there for some reason.
Now, I’m thinking, he couldn’t back himself up in his normal responsibilities.
I think that might make sense.
So we need to quit calling Junstin “Justin Hernandez.””
“Marti Reed says
DECEMBER 4, 2014 AT 11:50 AM
I really was thinking Joe was operating the dozer as part of being a HEQB (T). and thinking, like WTKTT thought, maybe “Justin” was a typo or something.
The thing that was bugging me, though, was why he would be there without a radio??????
This guy’s no newbie.
So that’s why I kept digging. Until I found that.
I guess we’ve solved that one.
Back to the videos and “Plan Cordes.””
“Marti Reed says
DECEMBER 4, 2014 AT 11:55 AM
PS. I’ve also been thinking that the dozer might have left the Youth Camp Area when Musser asked for the dozer to go north.
So he headed back down to the rig, and by the time he got there, he had to clear the area and “deploy.”
Or, maybe he DID load the dozer and head down to 89. And maybe he even made it. There’s just nothing anywhere, so far, that pins any of this. As far as I know.”
***
I think when Cordes says that about the dozer being staged on the road, he was talking about the second dozer, which was staged at the mini-mart at the time Cordes clearly was in that area talking with Musser.
And the more I’m thinking about “Ball got a quad from FD, and was trying to get on the dozer line to tie in w/ Justin to check it,” the more I think that does mean Ball had to drive in to Glen Ilah, and the dozer hadn’t made it out.
And I’m also agreeing with WTKTT’s scenario of Ball heading in, not being being able to go all the way in (and I’m thinking at this point Justin didn’t have a radio, because when he left the Youth Camp area to “go north” becuz of Musser’s order, he gave his loaned radio back to Trew), and Ball couldn’t even make any kind of contact with Justin, so he was pretty worried, and mentioned that to someone who mentioned that to DPS, and that’s how “dozer” got on the list of missing persons.
And, now I’m wondering, is it possible Musser meant that staged-at-the-mini-mart dozer, which he may have seen at that point, when he made that call for the dozer to go north,
and everybody in the Youth Camp area/Blue Ridge thought he meant the dozer that was working with them, including maybe Justin?
Back to the County Dozer was the Driver Red Carded as a Operator?
Was that the Dozer in the Mini Mart?
I do not believe the Mini Mart was designated as a Staging area?
The Staging area would be some where around Fire Camp Base?
Still creating questions I guess?????
Marti… great job on finding the public ‘Facebook’ posts attributable to ‘Joesph Hernandez’.
The ‘story’ being told there is that ( just like a lot of other people with Resource Orders placed for Yarnell on Saturday night )… Joseph Hernandez WAS supposed to be there that morning to function as HEQB for the dozer… so that BR Hotshot Cory Ball didn’t end up having to ‘fill in’ for him…
…but ( like others that morning ) Joseph Hernandez simply never ‘showed up’… and didn’t tell Dispatch he wasn’t going to with enough time to replace him before work-start.
At that same time… it explains why the dozer operator didn’t have a radio.
May Machinery sent the loboy loaded with the dozer and a driver/operator (supposedly) name ‘Justin’.
‘Justin’ arrives with the dozer… but there is no ‘Joseph Hernandez’ showing up to be HEQB.
Gary Cordes stays with the dozer for all that initial line work improving that east-to-west two-track out towards the old grader.
Even Blue Ridge was LATE getting there… but they finally show up and Cordes taps them for an HEQB so he can get back to Yarnell.
But poor loboy/dozer driver/operator ‘Justin’ still doesn’t have a radio… so that’s when Blue Ridge had to loan him one.
And YES… that also means later in the day when OPS requested the dozer ‘come up north’… Trew Brown took his radio BACK from Justin and he headed off towards the loboy trailer back at the staging area at the south end of the Sesame area.
That is all pretty much KNOWN.
What still *appears* to have happened is that sometime before ‘Justin’ got back to the loboy… Gary Cordes wanted more ‘scouting’ and/or ‘line building’ to take place there west of Glen Ilah and in the area out towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Ball dirves the GM Chase truck back to the Ranch House Restaurant and just thought he would ‘zip back’ out west for that ‘scouting’ mission… but then things went south. No BR at cafe’. Ball needs an ATV. Takes a while to arrange that. By the time he gets one… fire is already entering Glen Ilah out there where ‘Justin’ had been told to wait for him…
…but ‘Justin’ still has no radio… because Trew Brown took his BACK when they thought the dozer was just going to be heading up north.
All of this is possible… and only a better interviews with Cory Ball, Gary Cordes, and that dozer operator will probably ever clear all this up.
I agree totally with all of this scenario.
Except:
” fire is already entering Glen Ilah out there where ‘Justin’ had been told to wait for him…”
Given this scenario, there is no way Justin could have “been told” to wait for Ball. Since he didn’t have a radio.
At this point, I think he was just coping with what was happening around him.
But I think everything you wrote above is highly possible.
Reply to Marti Reed on December 4, 2014 at 9:27 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I agree totally with all of this scenario.
>>
>> Except:
>>
>> ” fire is already entering Glen Ilah out there
>> where ‘Justin’ had been told to wait for him…”
>>
>> Given this scenario, there is no way Justin
>> could have “been told” to wait for Ball.
>> Since he didn’t have a radio.
Sure there ‘is a way Justin could have been told to wait for Ball”.
It was Cory Ball himself who told him that before he left to deliver the BR Chase Truck with UTV trailer to the Ranch House Restaurant.
The scenario I am still picturing is…
1) OPS calls for Dozer to come up NORTH.
2) That is the moment when Dozer suddenly ‘stops’ what it was doing in the Harper Canyon area and just turns around and drives away with no explanation… as reported by Bob Brandon and other FFs working in Harper Canyon.
3) As they pass Trew Brown… Brown tells Ball to return to loboy staging area with ‘Justin’ and then drive the BR Chase Truck with the UTV trailer over to the Ranch House Restaurant and they will eventually meet up with him there.
Brown also takes his radio BACK from ‘Justin’ since they believe the dozer is now LEAVING and Brown isn’t sure he will see this ‘Justin’ fella again. So between Ball and Justin… only Ball now has a working handheld radio.
4) As Ball and Justin are drving ( slowly… it’s a dozer ) all the way back WEST on the Cutover trail and then all the way back south through the Sesame area ( this would have takne a fair amount of time )… Gary Cordes calls Ball and assigns him this NEW ‘scouting mission’ and now tells Ball about his plan to try and push an emergency DOZER LINE between the bottom of the Sesame Area and the Boulder Springs Ranch to make the fire ‘skirt around’ Glen Ilah. Ball tells Cordes the dozer was supposed to be heading north as per OPS request but Cordes shuts that request down and tells Ball to KEEP the dozer down south so it can be used for this ‘new plan’ Cordes has.
5) They reach the loboy staging area. Ball TELLS Justin ‘wait for me here… I’ll be right back”.
6) Ball then drives the BR Chase Truck with UTV trailer to the RHR. He thought BR would be there already ( since it was a slow drive in the dozer from the Youth Camp ) but BR isn’t there yet. So now Ball has to ‘scrape up’ a UTV to get back out there and continue this new DOZER LINE that Cordes wants with ‘Justin’ and the dozer.
You know the rest. Ball never makes it and now he can’t even get in touch with Justin at all.
Justin now ends up ‘on his own’ out there… and we have idea how he really survived that day.
Typo in last sentence. Should have been…
Justin now ends up ‘on his own’ out there… and we have NO idea how he really survived that day.
Thanks, WTKTT.
I’m trying to stay out of “posting” mode, today. So I’m fine with this staying down here in the weeds.
I don’t want to respond to Elizabeth (I really even shouldn’t have said what I said in the first place–but I’m glad you replied with the reasons we didn’t think Musser was asking for Cordes, which still apply).
Sometimes too many cooks slow the pot down a lot, especially about THIS.
I think your scenario makes a lot of sense. I’m still contemplating various things about the timing.
Way back when, I plotted the distance from where I thought Ball was when he photo-d the dozer to the gate at the bottom of sesame.
It’s only a half a mile. But where I thought the dozer photo was at was about halfway across the crossover line, not further east over by the Youth Camp.
So it would have required moving only 1.5 mph to get from there to the gate in the 20 minutes between photos.
So I still think it’s in the ballpark.
BTW, the photo of Trew just before it was taken at 3:26, four minutes before the dozer pic. So would that have been taken right before Trew headed out with Frisby on the UTV?
When did they head out on the ATV? I don’t remember.
So, this would have to be the last chance they would have had to consult with Trew in person and hand off the radio.
And I don’t know when Musser called for the dozer.
I vaguely remember it was around 3:30, because of something related to the fire burning toward the ICP.
So that would make sense.
The other thing I’ve continued to be a little stumped about is the trucks.
If Ball drove the utility truck down to the RHR, as it’s seeming more and more like he may very well have done, it seems to me that, when he realized he needed to hustle a UTV for this new Plan, it would have been simpler and faster just to drive that truck over to the Yarnell FD and load the UTV on it than it would have taken to have to hitch a ride.
There’s a full 40 minutes between the gate photo and the photo pulling into the FD parking lot. I’m not sure how to account for that. That’s why I earlier figured he walked down to the restaurant.
And, TBH, I’m not TOTALLY sure that truck in the FD parking lot isn’t the utility truck. The light is really really weird. Although it’s easier to make it white than it is to make it that shade of green (which I actually haven’t even tried to do). But it does seem to have kind of a green tinge.
But still, he would have had to make some kind of arrangement to borrow the dozer, so that could have taken some time. And it could have taken enough time that it wasn’t even possible until that 4:28 PM time, by which he WOULD have thought he needed to leave the utility truck for Blue Ridge. And he IS riding shotgun, not driving it.
I’m thinking out loud here.
The other thing that I wrote upstream somewhere (that’s still bugging me) was this:
“Now that I’ve written all of this, I’m sitting here thinking, it’s interesting that his next set of photos, where he went back into Glen Ilah, don’t have anything at all regarding the dozer and Justin, and neither do his logs, unless that was redacted out.
???””
It’s really like, when he went back in the second time, he was, seemingly completely unconcerned about the dozer and Justin. He was wandering around, photographing all kinds of stuff, but nothing related to that.
I find that really strange, all things considered.
Which is why, sometimes I think maybe they DID pull that dozer out or something. Maybe it WASN’T in any danger.
It’s just still so hard to tell, given what little information we have to work with.
Bob keeps insisting on considering it possible the “dozer went north.” I just don’t think the timing supports it at all.
And when I asked about the “life-saving” “risk-taking” I wasn’t even asking about what everybody started talking about.
I just wanted to know, from fire-fighters, when/if they ever bend/break the rules when they “know” fellow fire-fighters are really in trouble.
Sometimes these convos get so convoluted. This week has made me really………tired.
But thanks for all your help! I really appreciate it.
Typo.
But still, he would have had to make some kind of arrangement to borrow the UTV,
NOT
But still, he would have had to make some kind of arrangement to borrow the dozer,
Marti… copy ALL that.
It’s good to just ‘think out loud’ sometimes.
Regarding Ball driving BR Chase truck to RHR
>> You said…
>>
>> If Ball drove the utility truck down
>> to the RHR, as it’s seeming more
>> and more like he may very well
>> have done, it seems to me that,
>> when he realized he needed to
>> hustle a UTV for this new Plan, it
>> would have been simpler and
>> faster just to drive that truck over
>> to the Yarnell FD and load the
>> UTV on it than it would have
>> taken to have to hitch a ride.
Yes. I thought about that… and here is my ‘thinking out loud’ about that…
I believe Ball was under instructions ( from Trew or Frisby ) to move that BR Chase vehicle to the RHR as soon as he got down there ( riding the dozer ) to the bottom of Sesame area where it was parked all day.
I believe everyone DID think the dozer was ‘going up north’ as it exited the area and that is why Trew took his radio back.
I believe that SOMEWHERE during that actual (slow) dozer ride all the way back down to the bottom of the Sesame area is when Gary Cordes told Ball to do that ‘scouting mission’ down there around Glen Ilah and the BSR and to also ‘hold onto the dozer’ ( despite what Musser wanted ) in case some line building was possible down there near the BSR.
So Ball arrives at that ‘staging’ area… but he’s still under ‘orders’ from Trew to get that BR Chase Truck the heck out of there and over to the RHR.
So Ball just tells Justin… “Wait here… I’ll be right back”… and Ball takes off in the BR Chase Truck.
I really do think Ball was under some impression that by the time he got to RHR he could just borrow his own otufit’s UTV and pop back out to Justin.
His ‘plan’ fell apart when he got to RHR and his ‘buddies’ weren’t there yet ( nor was the BR UTV ).
I think if he had then decided to drive BACK out to Justin in the BR Chase Truck that he just delivered to the RHR ( as per his bosses’ instructions )… then there would have been hell to pay.
Besides… in order to even DO what Cordes wanted him to do ( scout line building out towards the BSR )… Ball NEEDED an ATV or UTV to do that… and not a ful-sized vehicle.
Besides… he would have had to have detached the trailer from the Chase truck to even had have a chance to use it for the ‘scouting mission’.
i also think that in the same way he thought his ‘buddies’ would have already been at the RHR by the time he got there… he also probably thought they would be arriving at any moment and that Trew and Frisby would want to be ‘loading up’ the BR UTV onto its trailer right away ( Remember… no deployment yet. Everybody was just ‘getting out’ ).
So he didn’t want Trew and Frisby to arrive at RHR and discover he had now ‘flitted off’ with the BR Chase Truck and would had to have left it parked over at YFD as he then took off in their ATV.
No way. That would have just pissed Trew and’/or Frisby off… big time.
So I believe he did the only thing that seemed like the ‘best’ answer to his problem at the moment.
He left the BR Chase Truck there at RHR exactly where his ‘boss’ told him to take it and where he would be expecting it to be… and he just got someone else to drive him over to the YFD to get that ATV he needed ASAP.
This all took much longer than he thought.
Ball did NOT know that Frsiby and Trew were going to get caught up in all that ‘pushing everyone else out’ stuff over in Harper Canyon. That is what ‘held them up’ and why they weren’t already at the RHR in the timeframe he thought they would be.
Ball then took WAAY too long getting this other ATV and even starting out back towards Justin. He didn’t make it… and he had no way to even call Justin on the radio now.
Anyway… that would be my ‘thinking out loud’ about all that.
More later
Thanks a lot. I think we’re getting closer on this.
I never thought he would have taken the truck back in. He knew he needed a UTV.
And, yeah, your timeline makes sense regarding where he was at vs where BR/Trew/Frisbee where at.
They took longer than he expected, but he couldn’t take off and get the UTV at the YFD unless he did that right at first.
But he didn’t think THEN (right at first) that he needed to do that. So he waited long enough to realize he was getting “pinched” and THEN I think it could have taken a bit of time and added frustration to get the YFD UTV authorized, since I’m not sure there was even ANYBODY THERE. Well, there was an engine sitting there, at 3:05 according to the Olympus photos, so there’s that.
And then hitching a ride.
So I think this all pretty much adds up.
What do you think about that fact that his second-journey-into-Glen Isla photos/reports don’t show/say anything at all about Justin and the dozer?
Given our convo/agreement that it most likely would have been him to have said something to someone somewhere sometime about Justin, for “dozer operator” to end up in the “missing persons list.”
And I do hope Joy goes after that convo with that person who may have treated a “firefighter” in some way, even maybe doing what Bob is suggesting. Or you do. Or I do (but my time right now is getting increasingly pinched).
I really think we need to find out what that injury was. Even if it turns out to be a slight burn or a sprained ankle on him or somebody else.
Knowing what is and what isn’t possible regarding this “disappearance” is important here. I think.
PS I think the dozer we’re talking about is the first one in the resource orders. Tomorrow I’ll post something regarding that.
Thanks for everything!
video M2U00271
At approximately the 28 second mark, Frisby clears up any thought the Prescoteers had that GMH were sitting in the black.. He then tells them of the trail Eric had decided to take. The trail that follows the ridge (out of the black and through the green). According to the way Frisby explains this( and per my interpretation), Eric decided to make this move, before Frisby picked up Mcdonough. So it seems that could have taken place as early as 1525-1530. Frisby then says he was going to tie in with Eric (presumably at or near the same meeting spot as the earlier meeting), when he comes across Mcdonough. (circa1540)
It appears that a couple details can be determined from this.
1. Eric was (at the minimum) considering a move to the south, out of the black, and along the ridge to the south. (We can assume SOUTH, because, NORTH would have meant staying in the black.
2. This decision/announcement came as early as 1525- 1530
3. When Eric made this announcement/decision, Frisby was not with Mcdonough, and therefor not hearing it on Mcdonough’s radio.
4. This new, earlier than previously thought (by me anyway) time that Eric made an announcement/decision could be why Cordes thought GM has plenty of time to reach BSR.
This information seems to help rule out that the announcement of GM moving out of the black and along the trail, came over the intracrew frequency. Right? Or does anyone think Frisby had GM’s intracrew frequency on his radio?
As DIVS, the fact that Eric was moving is not the same thing as GM moving, and as most of us assume based on all available info, the two entities did not travel together along the ridge-line.
Nor did the crew move until after 1600.
And all the discussions we have gone over and over for the past several months.
Kathy Hunter told us that a dozer was on George Hunters property (her Dad’s place). Kathy and her Dad would love to talk to the dozer operator as to why they did what they did to their property during evacuation.
All I know about the dozer is that we watched it with two trucks behind as it was blading a trail that went up past the old grader about 300 yards. They dozed out a circle there and I had thought they must have left it there but later we heard it was taken out. Right in that area was heavy brush–worse than where the old grader and the area they cleaned out would not have been good enough to protect that dozer. The tires burned off that old grader and there was less brush around it than where they were. Mr. Donut was fortunate he did not deploy at that old grader point since he would have been on fire like the tires on that old grader.
That grader guy had to have seen hell itself coming at him at the point he turned around. The brush on the mountain above him and up that canyon toward the mine was as bad or worse than even the brush the 19 GMHS deployed in. It is that brush on the south side of that canyon that stopped the GMHS crew from continuing to cut a line. Dr. Ted Putnam told me he could not understand why they stopped where they did until I described the area they had just about approached before moving back.
That fire was progressing down that canyon and that wind was behind it in the morning so I would guess the steep downhill progress was somewhat slowed for a time by the mountain behind itself. But once it got down that heavily brushed canyon the wind caught it better and it took off with a fierceness that was a wonder to behold. We were to witness the real wildfire and even time it up the next mountain. I thought at that point Peeples Valley was going to be hit hard and especially those ranches. But we were also seeing thunderstorms to the NE coming in from Prescott. Any cowboy will tell you that winds can change when clouds start gathering and seeing the speed of that fire I did know we could see it turn at any moment and come back our way–which did happen. Considering the uphill effect and the way it went up a mountain toward Peeples Valley I knew it was time to move toward safety. I figured those firemen had timed it just as I had Joy do. They were looking at the same scene at the same time only they were at that time closer to the fire so I am certain they had knowledge of the actual approximate speed of the fire. Also, I am told they were warned by a meteorologist that winds up to 45 mile per hour would be coming their way from the NE.
Now I do have to go along with Deborah in the JD article just posted. She believes Marsh would have never have had those men go down in that death trap. I have to agree from meeting him and from what Joy and others have revealed about the man since. I just think it would be convenient to blame that man since he is dead, no kids and this thing would be white washed. Now that is only opinion, but seems Donut and some Blue Ridges know the facts of the argument that went on. Strangely Joy and I had that very same decision argument just some time before they did–and she was going to go her way had I not returned to fetch her,
JD is right on that one–the critical evidence to find the truth lies in Donut, some Blue Ridge people and I suspect a lot of others that were on that fire that day.
My only confusion is then Why would Marsh allow his crew to go and not stop them. dose not make since?????
Where is the new article you are referring to??????
Reply to sonny post on December 4, 2014 at 11:15 am
>> sonny said…
>>
>> Kathy Hunter told us that a dozer was on
>> George Hunters property (her Dad’s place).
>> Kathy and her Dad would love to talk to the dozer
>> operator as to why they did what they did to their
>> property during evacuation.
sonny… there is no doubt that the ‘George Hunter’ property
at the corner of Westward Dr. and Ridgeway Dr. was lost when
the fire burned through Glen Ilah… but given the location at
almost the middle of the Glen Ilah subsivision… there is no
evidence ( so far ) there was ANY ‘dozer’ work going on at
that location anytime prior to… or DURING the evacuations
on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
There may have been dozer work at that address the following
day… but as far as we know the only ‘dozer’ work going on in
that area all day Sunday was what has already been documented
about the work being done in the Sesame area… and the Cutover
trail area that leads from Sesame over to the Youth Camp… and than later that night a road was bulldozed from the Boulder Springs Ranch out to the deployment site.
There is no evidence of any ‘dozer work’ being done in the interior of the Glen Ilah subdivision… where Mr. George Hunter’s property was.
I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m just saying that there’s no evidence that I know of about it happening. Not on Sunday, June 30 2013, anyway.
** GEORGE HUNTER’S LAND PARCEL – PUBLIC INFORMATION
A simple search for the name ‘George Hunter’ in Yavapai County Property Owners PUBLIC database returns…
Yavapai County Parcel 203-04-081
Owner: HUNTER GEORGE C & ELIZABETH K JT
Owner’s Mailing Address: PO BOX 822, YARNELL, AZ, 85362
That parcel is located at the corner of W Westard Drive and S. Ridgeway Drive. That is about right in the middle of the Glen Ilah Subdivision there in Yarnell.
The property is not anywhere NEAR where any known dozer activity was taking place during the day/afternoon/evening of June 30, 2013.
The exact center of land parcel 203-04-081 is here…
34.217819, -112.764664
If you cut-and-paste that line above into the ‘search bar’ of Google Maps a GREEN arrow will be pointing at the center of the parcel and Google lists the actual street address as…
17613 Westward Dr
Yarnell, AZ 85362 15 ft W
Even though that parcel was almost in the CENTER of the Glen Ilah subdivision… Google Maps will show that the entire neighborhood was devastated by the fire. Google maps is currently defaulting to post-fire satellite imagery for the Yarnell area and it shows there are basically no homes left for a 1 or 2 block area surrounding that intersection of Westward Dr. and Ridgeway Dr.
It was one of the areas of Glen Ilah most badly damaged by the fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
>> sonny also wrote…
>>
>> All I know about the dozer is that we watched it with
>> two trucks behind as it was blading a trail that went
>> up past the old grader about 300 yards. They dozed
>> out a circle there and I had thought they must have
>> left it there but later we heard it was taken out.
When the dozer first arrived that morning… it was SPGS1 Gary Cordes who was ‘in charge’ of it and Gary Cordes himself is the one who guided it out there to the old-grader and was telling him ( in-person ) what to do.
It wasn’t until later in the morning, around 10:30 AM, when the Blue Ridge Hotshots finally arrived out in the Sesame area that Gary Cordes was able to get Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to ‘relieve’ him of being ‘in charge’ of the dozer. Gary Cordes then returned back to town ( Yarnell ) to direct things from there and BR Hotshot Cory Ball stayed with the dozer the rest of the afternoon.
>> sonny also said…
>>
>> Right in that area was heavy brush–worse than where
>> the old grader and the area they cleaned out would
>> not have been good enough to protect that dozer.
>> The tires burned off that old grader and there was
>> less brush around it than where they were. Mr. Donut
>> was fortunate he did not deploy at that old grader
>> point since he would have been on fire like the
>> tires on that old grader.
In his very FIRST ( of two ) ADOSH interviews… Brendan McDonough told the ADOSH investigators that the ‘old-grader’ location was chosen FOR him as his ‘Safety Zone’. It wasn’t even his idea. Someone ( Eric Marsh? Jesse Steed? Gary Cordes? ) had TOLD him to consider that ‘old-grader’ location to be his designated ‘Safety Zone’.
From McDonough’s first ADOSH interview on August 20, 2013…
————————————————-
551 Q2: Sure. Right. So you were on your own. You – what was your, um plan?
552
553 A: My safety zone what they had established for me was that grader. That was
554 that dozer – had pushed that out.
—————————————————–
In Brendan’s SECOND ADOSH interview ( on October 10, 2013 ), Brendan also told the ADOSH investigators that he wasn’t that concerned about the ‘old-grader’ location as a ‘Safety Zone’. Even on October 10, 2013, Brendan was telling them that he still thought he might have taken ‘some heat’ if he had deployed by the old-grader… but he still would have been OK…
——————————————–
196 – A: My safety zone was that dozer push. It was a pretty big enough area. Um, there’s quite a few rocks. And, uh, there’s a wash kinda close by it. So, um, I mean, it would a took some heat. But I don’t – I don’t – that was my safety zone. And then my escape routes were either back into the black or back out to the vehicles. Mm, both were pretty feasible. I mean, if I moved – if I made correct decisions like I did, they were both feasible.
———————————-
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley totally disagreed with this and publicy said to a group of Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014… that if Brendan had NOT been accidentally picked up by BR SUP Brian Frisby when he was and had to deploy at the old-grader… that Brendan would have defintely been the ‘first fatality’ that day. No question in his mind.
———————————-
Mike Dudley said…
That’s not to say that Blue Ridge didn’t do their job… because Blue Ridge superintendent… he was drivin’ the UTV… he’s picking up the lookout… he’s getting his crew ready to bail out… he’s gathering them up… and he knows he’s gotta move his buggies and Granite Mountain’s buggies… so he’s multi-tasking through this process as he’s tryin’ to have this communication.
I will also say… that if he had not come around the corner at the time that he did… the lookout woulda been the first fatality. Guaranteed.
———————————-
Followup…
sonny… I think I may have misinterpreted what you say that Kathy and her Dad meant by ‘during evacuation’.
I think they mean more ‘during the ENTIRE evacuation’ and not just the ‘evacuation’ that was happening on the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
If that’s the case… then my comments should have added that there is little chance the ‘dozer operator’ during some kind of ‘cleanup phase’ days ( or weeks ) after June 30 would have been any of the dozer operators that were actually there in Yarnell on June 30 itself.
Maybe they were… but I actually doubt it.
Some good observations ( and assumptions ) there, Calvin… but I would say the one ‘sticking point’ for that scenario is this ‘face-to-face’ meeting that Marsh requested.
We still do NOT KNOW WHY Marsh was actually asking Frisby to drop what he was doing at a very critical time in the burn cycle and schlep all the way up to the ridge to have a meeting with him.
According to your timing… that ‘request’ for the meeting would have been taking place at the same exactly time Marsh is ‘announcing his plans to move’.
So it would then no longer make sense that he would even be asking Frisby to make that long trip out there for any kind of ‘face-to-face’.
It’s also been pretty obvious ( in my opinion ) that the very fact that Marsh made that request for that second ‘face-to-face’ with Frisby that Marsh must have been totally oblivious to how close the fire already was to Brendan, his lookout mound, and ( indeed ) the very two-track he was now asking Frisby to travel on just to come see him.
We don’t even know if Marsh even gave Frisby any REASON why he wanted him to schlep all the way out there for a face-to-face.
What could have been so important that Marsh felt he needed Frisby to be all the way out there with him… unless it was just something Marsh didn’t feel comfortable talking about over the radio? It was NOT a convenient moment for Frisby to just be dropping everything he was doing and make that long, eat-dust trip out there just to ‘chit-chat’.
I think the moment when Frisby called Marsh and said he had just picked up Brendan, and that the fire was moving in fast down in the middle bowl, and that it was now ‘too dangerous’ for him to even continue west for the ‘face-to-face’… is, in fact, the moment when Marsh realized everything was going to shit.
I think Marsh might have actualy thought there was still a chance to ‘do something’ about the advancing fireline when he requested Frisby come up for that face-to-face….
…but the moment Frisby called and said “I have your lookout and I’m not coming up there… I am evacuating to the EAST” is the moment Marsh realized whatever plans he had for still fighting the fire were now useless.
THEN he started “considering his options” whether to ‘stay in black’ or ‘move’.
That’s sort of the way I’ve always been interpreting that time period, anyway.
We KNOW Marsh’s request for that second face-to-face took place.
We still don’t know WHY… but it has to be factored in to any guesses about what
anyone ( Sic: Marsh ) might have been ‘thinking’ in this timeframe.
So I’m going to post this to the top because I think it’s important and because the complicated threads to which I posted it made it get all out of order.
FIRE20+ says DECEMBER 3, 2014 AT 4:30 PM
Good stuff.
Still doesn’t help with the dozer operator though, Justin Hernandez-who’s that and where did that name come from?
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 3, 2014 AT 7:46 PM
Weirdly enough, I just did a very big search and the first reference I can find re Justin Hernandez is at the start of Chapter VI and it starts with Calvin asking:
“calvin says MARCH 22, 2014 AT 4:11 AM
Was the “dozer operator” from 6/30 (Justin Hernandez?) interviewed? Are there any comments available that were 1. Made by him, or 2. Made about him and his whereabouts after the entrapment and burnover of GMIHC?
We now know from Dan Philbun that the dozer was actually immobilized after power lines fell on the dozer IN YARNELL, and that he helped untangle it later in the evening. We also know that during the search and rescue effort, Ranger 58 was searching for 20-22 people (TOL… 22 would have been GMIHC, DIVS, and dozer operator)
Questions. 1. Where was dozer operator (Justin Hernandez?) when the power lines collapsed (presumably an effect from the fire)? Still with the dozer? …”
I can’t find anything at all before that.
Even just searching “Justin.”
I know it was anchored somewhere, but I can’t find it.
Weird.
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 3, 2014 AT 8:23 PM
OK. I finally finally finally found it. It’s not Justin, it’s Joseph Hernandez. And, yes it was Sitta who found him.
“Sitta says JANUARY 24, 2014 AT 3:21 AM
Calvin,
I’ve looked through the dispatch resource orders: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v8x3epmb8nent9l/JeqvhLLMKv
I can find no resource order for a dozer boss on 6/30/13, but there is one for a heavy equipment boss (HEQB).
Request Number: O-21 Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 0227 Resource Requested: Heavy Equipment Boss, Single Resource (HEQB) (T-A) Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0900 Resource Assigned: Hernandez, Joseph (T) Estimated Time of Arrival: 06/30/13 1045 (Compare needed time to ETA — we can’t always get resources as soon as we want them.)”
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 3, 2014 AT 8:25 PM
Also:
Sitta says JANUARY 25, 2014 AT 3:57 AM
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive on January 24, 2014 at 11:26 am said:
“The Dozer Operator (whomever that was) could not work until a Dozer Boss was pulled from the BR shots.”
Okay, that actually makes sense, because the (T) after Hernandez’s name means he was a trainee, and would have to work under a qualified DOZB or HEQB.”
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 3, 2014 AT 8:53 PM
Just found where the name Justin came from.
“Marti Reed says FEBRUARY 2, 2014 AT 7:39 PM
Big Snip
After reading what I read this afternoon, in the Yarnell Interview Notes, the reason Ball needed to stop at the YFD was to “get a quad from FD, and was trying to get on the dozer line to tie in w/ Justin to check it people evacuating trying to get out.” (page 4 of the BR interview.) He was still worried about Justin and the dozer.”
The name Justin came from the Blue Ridge Interview notes. It’s right there.
“Ball got a quad from FD, and was trying to get on the dozer line to tie in w/ Justin to check it people evacuating trying to get out. At manzanita and lockwood fire was already in the subdivision.”
So I guess we come full circle!
Anyway, that’s how we discovered the Heavy Equipment Boss Trainee, Joseph Hernandez, and then started calling him Justin Hernandez.
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 3, 2014 AT 8:59 PM
By the way, that’s all in Chapter IV. Sorry.
Along with lots of conversation we had after discovering, in those Blue Ridge notes, that Musser ordered the dozer to relocate to the north side of the fire.
Which, clearly, for all the reasons we’ve been talking about, didn’t happen.
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 3, 2014 AT 9:24 PM
So………..
I was thinking, “Why are we talking about this when we need to be talking about the 21 Aaron Hulburd videos??????”
Oh, that’s right.
The Gary Cordes plan. It needed a dozer.
As WTKTT wrote 24 hours ago on December 2, 2014 at 9:24 PM:
“This line from ( Ball’s ) BR Unit Log has always been important…
“Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of manzanita and lockwood.”
( NOTE: The sentence immediately following this in Ball’s Log has been totally REDACTED. ).
This ‘Unit Log’ statement actually matches exactly a radio transmission that has ALWAYS been sitting right there in the ‘Helmet Cam’ video which also captured all the MAYDAY traffic.
That would be Hulburd video
M2U00265.
At the end of the video… we hear Tyson Esquibel telling SPGS1 Gary Cordes that he didn’t ‘copy that last transmission’… and
Cordes comes right back with the exact same report of ‘fire at intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita’ that Ball’s Unit Log say he reported to Cordes himself.
Cordes even speaks the same WRONG NAME of ‘Lockwood’ ( instead of ‘Lakewood’ ) when reporting to Esquibel which is exactly what Ball’s Unit Log said he reported to Cordes.”
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 3, 2014 AT 9:39 PM
Putting the lock on the circle of “why are we talking about this?’
And, that’s right, Gary Cordes’ plan required a dozer:
FIRE20+ says DECEMBER 2, 2014 AT 1:38 PM
SNIP
…the documentation in the Blue Ridge pdf only says “Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.
Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision back to Dozer line. Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in subdivision. Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of manzanita and lockwood.””
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 3, 2014 at 10:29 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Anyway, that’s how we discovered the Heavy Equipment Boss
>> Trainee, Joseph Hernandez, and then started calling him Justin Hernandez.
LOL. I’ve been on airplanes all day and could only watch this whole ‘Dozer lightning round’ taking place… but I was able to research previous chapters and take notes for later.
I had a LONG post ready to explain how we arrived at ‘Justin Hernandez’ as the (probable) Dozer operator’s name… but you just NAILED it with everything I was going to post.
So I am just CONFIRMING everything above.
That IS how it went down.
In Chapter 4… Joy and Sonny asked if anyone knew who was operating the Dozer.
Sitta found that HEQB resource order for ‘Joseph Hernandez’.
Calvin then found that YIN Blue Ridge note that said Ball was borrowing the ATV from YFD so he could ‘tie in with Justin’.
So from that moment on… we just assumed that it was ‘Justin Hernandez’ instead of ‘Joseph Hernandez’ as mentioned in the HEQB resource order… and we’ve been sticking with that assumption ever since.
I SUPPOSE two things are still possible here…
1) The name ‘Justin’ in the BR YIN notes is just a typo… and it really should have been ‘Joseph’. and the dozer operator really was named ‘Joseph Hernandez’.
2) The ‘Joseph Hernandez’ ordered up as HEQB in the official resource orders was never the actual operator of that dozer there on the south side of the fire… but the YIN BR note about ‘Ball tying in with Justin on the dozer line’ is accurate… and so some guy named ‘Justin’ ( last name still unknown ).actually WAS the real ‘dozer operator’ that day.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> So I guess we come full circle!
Yep.
…and the wheels on the bus go ’round and ’round.
Whoever he was… sure would have been nice if ANYONE had bothered to both identify and INTERVIEW this mysterious Dozer operator.
Whoever he is… he knows a LOT about what happened that afternoon that still hasn’t been brought into the light of day.
He STILL needs to be properly INTERVIEWED… by SOMEONE.
LOL! Woke up after a mini-dream this morning that you were leaving 3-word bizarro comments about all this in a long thread.
I know I need to break from this, but it gets more interesting.
Google: “joe hernandez” yavapai arizona fire
There definitely is one. Captain on Groom Creek Fire Department. Also a Wildland Fire Fighter. Also, an alum of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, April 2004-July 2007.
Graduate: Yavapai College Fire Sciences/Fire Fighter 2003-2006
He even has a Facebook page.
Graduate: Yavapai College Assoc. Arts & Sciences, Paramedic 2010-2011.
Owner-Operator Copper State Fallers LLC since January 2012.
He’s a Contact Person for the Precott Basin Wildland Resource Group (along with Todd Abel, Darrell Willis, and Ben Roche (Chino Valley FD). Remember the Wildland Resource Groups are the ones who manage the assignment rotations.
He could easily have been a Heavy Equipment Boss Trainee in 2013. Would fit right in.
I still can’t figure out where the “Justin” name comes in, though. He’s in articles, he’s interviewed, all kinds of stuff, and he goes by the name Joe Hernandez.
I had been thinking, maybe, a son of that Joe Hernandez, if he was named Joseph, also, might use the nickname Justin, to differentiate himself. But I don’t think this Joe Hernandez is old enough to have a son old enough to be a Heavy Equipment Boss Trainee.
He’s definitely into dozers!
I think we are on to two seperiate people here.
Joseph is a heavy equipment manager trainee.
Justin is possibly the actual Dozer operator…..No last name.
Joseph stayed with the Dozer and Operator when Ball went to get ATV?
The Dozer and Operator may have been a local resource called in by YFD
Prescott FD or the State if it was the State would assume a Fire order was made but I haven’t found one.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 4, 2014 at 10:14 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I think we are on to two seperiate people here.
>> Joseph is a heavy equipment manager trainee.
>> Justin is possibly the actual Dozer operator…..No last name.
Perfectly possible. We have NO IDEA if even this “Joseph Hernandez’ person who shows up in the official ‘Resource Orders’ ever even MADE it to Yarnell that day.
There are any number of ‘Resource Orders’ for people that were placed by Russ Shumate the night before who never even showed up the next day.
As for ‘Justin’ ( who BR Hotshot Ball seems to say was the name of the guy he was headed back out in the ATV to ‘tie in with’ on the dozer line )… I still think that might have been a ‘typo’ in the SAIT YIN notes. Might have been supposed to say ‘Joe’ or ‘Joseph’.
Again… there are MANY places in the SAIT YIN notes where someone was ‘spelling challenged’ or was actually making totally WRONG notes about names.
Example: Jason Clawson is mentioned a half-dozen times in various YIN note sections…. but his NAME is never spelled the same way even twice. It was written down by SAIT investigators as anything from “Clausen” to “Klausin” and other miss-spellings.
The SAIT investigators didn’t even spell Gary Cordes’ name right.
At the top of his interview section it says… “Interview with Gary Cordis”.
>> Bob Powers also says…
>>
>> Joseph stayed with the Dozer and Operator when
>> Ball went to get ATV?
There is really absolutely NO evidence that there were TWO people associated with the dozer that day. There really isn’t… but I suppose that doesn’t mean it’s not possible.
May Machinery would know.
They are the ones that ‘delivered’ BOTH dozers that ended up in Yarnell that Sunday and if anyone would know WHO they actually SENT along with them… it would be them.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Dozer and Operator may have been a local
>> resource called in by YFD Prescott FD or the State
>> if it was the State would assume a Fire order was
>> made but I haven’t found one.
The actual Resource Order for the FIRST dozer that was placed by Gary Cordes himself at around 2:00 AM the previous morning/night actually had a NOTE on the order saying…
“TRY TO FULFILL LOCALLY FIRST”
Hmmmmmm
Here’s an interesting post:
“Joe Hernandez
July 1, 2013 · Prescott, AZ ·
I want to thank everyone for the prayers and well wishes. I am okay but I lost alot of good friends yesterday.”
SNIP
“Dani Koile Are you here? Im in Yarnell & ICP
July 1, 2013 at 1:13pm
Joe Hernandez I was supposed to be. HEQB. Couldn’t find coverage.
July 1, 2013 at 1:16pm”
https://www.facebook.com/joe.hernandez.92372/posts/10151702432761113
I have absolutely no clue what that means.
So, I think what you all are posting above is relevant.
Seems Joe is the one on the resource order for HEQB (T), cuz Shumate did want both a Dozer Boss and Heavy Equipment Boss. So Joe got ordered, the order got filled, he was supposed to be there,
but he “could’t find coverage”??
What would that mean?
So, yeah, I think that definitely means the dozer got sent with an operator (Justin?), but Joe didn’t make it there for some reason.
Now, I’m thinking, he couldn’t back himself up in his normal responsibilities.
I think that might make sense.
So we need to quit calling Junstin “Justin Hernandez.”
I really was thinking Joe was operating the dozer as part of being a HEQB (T). and thinking, like WTKTT thought, maybe “Justin” was a typo or something.
The thing that was bugging me, though, was why he would be there without a radio??????
This guy’s no newbie.
So that’s why I kept digging. Until I found that.
I guess we’ve solved that one.
Back to the videos and “Plan Cordes.”
And, yup. Justin really needs to be interviewed.
PS. I’ve also been thinking that the dozer might have left the Youth Camp Area when Musser asked for the dozer to go north.
So he headed back down to the rig, and by the time he got there, he had to clear the area and “deploy.”
Or, maybe he DID load the dozer and head down to 89. And maybe he even made it. There’s just nothing anywhere, so far, that pins any of this. As far as I know.
Marti said:
“I was thinking, “Why are we talking about this when we need to be talking about the 21 Aaron Hulburd videos??????”
Oh, that’s right.
The Gary Cordes plan. It needed a dozer.”
I was talking about it because I kept seeing this person’s name Justin Hernandez being thrown around like he actually exists, when we sussed out that he doesn’t, or were reminded at least. I see that as important, I don’t want to waste my time talking about or looking for somebody who doesn’t exist. And that dozer and lowboy still aren’t accounted for that afternoon. One of the only references, and it’s a small one, Gary Cordes SAI “Dozer was sitting on road staged.” And of course the Philbin untangling the dozer from the wires reference.
And the weird resource ordering for the dozers, that matters too. There’s no record of the first T1 dozer on scene OR in that I-Dispatch Records reference to Denny Foulk saying which dozer is on the fire and which one is en route from Verde. The Dispatch Log definitely has Type 2 D78 as the 1st dozer that is on the fire. But the dozer in Ball’s pictures is a T1 and a D7 dozer is a Type 1 piece of equipment. And BRIHC they were “having a tough time with the T1 dozer. It was too steep, the DZOP didn’t have an angled blade, it was too hard.” A blade that didn’t angle, as to move the berm to one side or another. This dozer was an earth mover, maybe a piece of mining equipment. So was it a typo? Perhaps, but there is still no resource order for it.
This would also coincide with what you are saying.
N-Interview Notes BRIHC:
“Ball got a quad from FD, and was trying to get on the dozer line to tie in w/ Justin to check it people evacuating trying to get out. At manzanita and lockwood fire was already in the subdivision. There in the buggies and the fire is pushing them out. ”
Who’s in the buggies to get pushed by fire out of that area?
If that isn’t a ‘typo’ in the YIN notes… and BR Hotshot Ball really was trying to ‘tie in with Justin on the dozer line’ as he was headed back west with the borrowed ATV…
…then WHO is ‘Justin’?
If we really discover that is NOT the actual Dozer operator’s first name…
…then WHO in the HELL is this ‘Justin’ character?
I agree that it’s important to actually REVIEW all of this ‘dozer’ stuff in the ‘new’ context that it does seem very, very likely Gary Cordes had some ‘plan’ going here about ‘pushing more line’ to protect Glen Ilah… and it really MIGHT have had more to do with why Granite Mountain was MOVING that anyone has ever been led to believe.
Wild thought comin’ at ya…
What if the dozer HAD loaded up and moved north at the time the YIN notes say it was being requested up on the NORTH end… to help with protection work in Peeples Valley?
What if Cordes then THOUGHT he had ‘plenty of time’ to try and put some kind of ‘line break’ in there from the bottom of the Sesame area on over to the ‘bomb-proof safety zone’ and boulder outcrops at the Boulder Springs Ranch?
Is it possible he actually thought he could use ‘Granite Mountain’ to pull that off… since his dozer had been sent NORTH to Peeples Valley?
That wouldn’t explain who the ‘Justin’ character is that Ball says he was trying to ‘tie in with’ back out there in the Sesame area… but it MIGHT explain why Eric Marsh might have been telling Jesse Steed “They really need us down there”.
Correction… before I get jumped on for that LAST sentence up above… I have to make it clear there is NO EVIDENCE ( that we have seen ) that Eric Marsh ever told Jesse Steed “They really need us down there”.
I was ONLY trying to describe what MIGHT have taken place as Steed and Marsh were ‘discussing their options’.
In the ‘wild’ scenario I was describing above… there would have to have been a call from Cordes to Marsh with Cordes explaining to Marsh what his ‘plan’ was… and that they had taken his DOZER away and Cordes now really needed GM to try to get the Boulder Springs Ranch to help build this ‘linebreak’ he was hoping to put in at the last minute.
If that happened… then THAT could have been what Marsh was asking Steed about with regards to ‘comfort level’.
The whole ‘comfort level’ thing could have been based on Marsh telling Steed what Cordes’ PLAN was ‘down there’… and was Jesse ‘comfortable’ with trying to particpate in that.
The real problem with any line construction by 1600
A hand crew in brush could only build 300 ft. max per hour
the fire was traveling way faster than that Evan a Dozer could not keep up with the speed of the fire at 40 chains per Hr. only about 1/2 mile per hour
the fire would have out run a dozer as well.
Any IC or ops should have known that if they knew any thing at all.
On top of a frontal attack at that time of day ???
Wind, Temp, humidity, fuel moisture and fuel type a formula for a disaster which as well Granit Mountain should have known.
There is no way this could have been a plan even 2 hours earlier……
Mr. Powers… I agree… EVERYTHING you point out ‘makes sense’ to anyone with a boatload of true WFF experience.
But we are talking about Gary Cordes, here.
The man who thought the Boulder Springs Ranch was 20-30 acres ( when it was 10 times smaller than that ) and the man who was SURE that Granite Mountain had (quote) “plenty of time” to make it to the Boulder Springs Ranch that day.
This is also the man who told ADOSH that he was by no means any kind of “Structure Protection Specialist” ( much less an experienced WFF DIVS or OPS )…
Yet there he was… SPGS1 and charged with the protection of an entire town.
.And there he was… making decisions all day that required WFF Field OPS experience ( like building defensive line in the boondock and whatnot ).
YOU know ALL of the things you just iterated.
YOU have the experience to just rattle these things off.
Gary Cordes might NOT have ‘known all these things’.
Gary Cordes might NOT have ‘had that experience’.
He may have done a classic “rising to one’s level of incompetence” that day and he was ‘over his head’ with NO DIVS in his area to back him up or make better decisions.
kept trying to post…give up.
the hikers says
December 3, 2014 at 4:22 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Thanks for the encouragement private e mails from ‘Otis, Charlie and Eric. We needed that considering how things went the past few days. We are happy that at least one federal officer is looking at this site and keeping track of things. Maybe an official investigation will develope–something many of us would like to see. Those 19 men, their friends and loved ones as well as those that lost so much from the fire deserve the worlds finest on this one.
Joy finally got her pizza at Ray’s in Surprize, AZ. She used to ride her bike from Congress to here just for this guys pizza. Nice to have a beer with it too.
We’ll be in the American Legion later to see if we can round up more photos. Joy is officially a member now since her grandfather fought in WW2. Thanks again for your help in this.
Reply
the hikers says
December 3, 2014 at 4:08 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Thank you Otis,
Eric and
Charlie for your private emails that one got off here on comment wall,
one of Wild fire T- Bill G’s page
and one who researched it out elsewhere.
Thank you for the in country as well as out of country very very good information/kindness and we appreciate it and Eric as soon as I have pc time we will fulfill your request and seriously thank you Otis
we are finally getting my pizza.
yummy.
Thanks for the encouragement private e mails from ‘Otis, Charlie and Eric. We needed that considering how things went the past few days. We are happy that at least one federal officer is looking at this site and keeping track of things. Maybe an official investigation will develope–something many of us would like to see. Those 19 men, their friends and loved ones as well as those that lost so much from the fire deserve the worlds finest on this one.
Joy finally got her pizza at Ray’s in Surprize, AZ. She used to ride her bike from Congress to here just for this guys pizza. Nice to have a beer with it too.
We’ll be in the American Legion later to see if we can round up more photos. Joy is officially a member now since her grandfather fought in WW2. Thanks again for your help in this.
Thank you Otis,
Eric and
Charlie for your private emails that one got off here on comment wall,
one of Wild fire T- Bill G’s page
and one who researched it out elsewhere.
Thank you for the in country as well as out of country very very good information/kindness and we appreciate it and Eric as soon as I have pc time we will fulfill your request and seriously thank you Otis
we are finally getting my pizza.
yummy.
OK In order to help clear up a bunch of CONFUSION, I’m posting five photos of the two dozers that we’re talking about into Dropbox.
IMG_1881 and IMG_1883 are the two photos Ball took of the Dozer on the cutover line.
113 is the photo taken of the second dozer at the MiniMart.
1643-0512-Dozer and dozerin are the two photos I screensnapped of the second dozer being towed toward the west as it crosses the Air2Air video camera.
I think this second dozer is the Type 2 Dozer listed in the Resource Orders that FIRE+20 was asking about. And, no, I haven’t found ANY mention in the Resource Orders of the Dozer Hernandez, Ball, etc., were working with.
Here’s link to the pix, which are in a Folder called “2014-12-03 Dozers”:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7k9ldpvs8i9nzjp/AABSNTbM654nzGg0aYQ-BrLEa?dl=0
All of these photos have the original metada intact.
They look to be the same dozer cant tell on the one in the parking lot.
If they are 2 different Dozers they look to be the same type and model
There was a long conversation about these two dozers way back a zillion chapters ago.
I remember WTKTT and Calvin figuring out they were two different dozers.
I don’t remember how they did that.
Perhaps WTKTT can search his compiled version of these chapters and find that conversation.
That’s pretty much what I’m waiting for.
Looking at the cabs, body style , Blades and rippers they are the same model.
2 different dozers I don’t know. Need more info but if the pictures are close to gather in time and sequence could very well be the same DOZER?
Not sure of the new typing but the pictures are of one type either type 1 or 2?
I don’t see a difference except ones on a lowboy and one is working both have same body profile .and equipment.
OK. I finally found the conversation. Thanks Google!
Chapter VI.
After WTKTT wrote on April 15, 2014 at 8:56 PM about finding the air study video with the Dozer crossing in it, and thinking it was the same dozer in the Ball photos…
“calvin says
APRIL 16, 2014 AT 4:04 AM
WTKTT…. That dozer is NOT the one in the Ball photos. The proof is in the Caterpillar signage behind and below the cabin.
Ball photo (taken from behind) shows only a CAT sign with no connecting black and white stripes
USDA video (referenced above by WTKTT) shows what appears to be the word CATERPILLAR spelled out with black and white stripes extending from the sides all the way around to the back with the word CATERPILLAR between them.
WTKTT… ongoing thanks for all of your diligent work. There are some other subtle differences in the two dozers but the sign below the rear of the cabin is the most obvious (to me).”
Then:
“WantsToKnowTheTruth says
APRIL 16, 2014 AT 2:04 PM
calvin… good eye. I was looking mostly at the SIDES but
you appear to be right. If you capture a photo of the dozer
from the video as it LEAVES the right-hand frame of the
video… it DOES appear to have those ‘black and white’
stripes extending around the BACK of the cab… while
the DOZER in the Ball photos only appears to have
that single black/white *CAT* sign on the back of the
cab, with no extending black/white stripes.
I also now think I am seeing ( on the back? ) that the
TOP headlights seen in the Ball photos are NOT
present on the back of the DOZER seen passing by
the camera in the USDA video.
Other than that… they *appear* to be the exact same
make/model of dozer right down to blade configuration.
There were, in fact, TWO DOZERS ordered by IC Russ
Shumate the night before… but only the one showed
up in the morning. I wonder if this one now seen
arriving up near the Model Creek Shcool ICP is the
second one from THAT previous night’s order… or
whether this is an entirely different ‘order’ placed
after that original one.
Checking dispatch logs for anything about that…
Thanks again for your ‘good eyes’!
More later.”
I guess I missed that there were two dozers ordered in the Resource Orders.
I’ll grab a screensnap of that and post it.
OK. I posted it in the dozer folder on Dropbox. it’s called “dozerback.”
So here’s more confusing cool stuff.
From Resource Orders Documentation.
“E-16 Request E-16 – Dozer, Type 2 – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with DOZER – T2 – AZ-YAO – #D03562 (2003 CAT D6R ) (AZ-ADC) by LINDA JOHNSON@AZ-ADC
ROSS.
LINDA JOHNSON (AZADC)
06/30/2013 1843
PNT”
That’s filled at 6:43 PM on Sunday.
“E-39 Request E-39 – Dozer, Type 2 – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with DOZER – T2 – AZA1S – May Machinery – 05142 (1996 CAT D5HWL – SEE SPECIAL
CONDITIONS) (AZ-ADC) by CHARLIE HAVEL@AZ-ADC ROSS.
CHARLIE HAVEL (AZADC)
06/30/2013 1357
PNT”
That’s filled at 1:57 PM Sunday.
Per the orders, they’re both type 2 dozers.
Apparently, the “Special Instructions” pertain to this:
“E-46 Request E-46 – Transportation – Tractor – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with TRACTOR – AZA1S – May Machinery – 94291 (2001 FREIGHTLINER – LIC# 1TA-423 –
DOZER TRANSPORT) (AZ-ADC) by CHARLIE HAVEL@AZ-ADC ROSS.
CHARLIE HAVEL (AZADC)
06/30/2013 1508
PNT”
That’s filled at 3:08 PM.
May Machinery is in Buckeye, Arizona.
http://www.maymachinery.com
E-16 matches AZ-YAO-#D03562 to
I-Dispatch Records:
Denny to KM: “Foulk: 1st Dozer that is on the fire. CAT Dozer Type 2 D78. 10618. Serial#: AFN01551 EQ#: 06562. 2nd Dozer is a CAT Dozer. Coming from Verde. D68 Type 2. PAD# 9690 Serial#: AAX00270 EXU# 03562.
LOL Brilliant minds think alike. Unless they really disagree!
Bingo!
Wait, I don’t have I-Dispatch Records. I’m looking at the WildCAD Log.
Are you looking at something that you can copy and paste, or the one I had to actually type all the stuff, cuz it’s not copy-paste-able?
I”m looking at the one I had to type myself, won’t cut and paste. In the SAI records, I-Dispatch Records, pg 30 at 1446.
OK, thanks!
Darn.
I was seriously hoping when I post the engine stuff, I wouldn’t have to type it all out!!
You said
“E-16 matches AZ-YAO-#D03562 to…EXU# 03562.”
I was SO scratching my head with all those numbers trying to figure out what to synch them to…….”
Good stuff.
Still doesn’t help with the dozer operator though, Justin Hernandez-who’s that and where did that name come from?
I believe Sitta came up with Justin Hernandez. I don’t remember the how. But I could be wrong.
I would bet you WTK knows!
Also:
:Sitta says
JANUARY 25, 2014 AT 3:57 AM
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive on January 24, 2014 at 11:26 am said:
“The Dozer Operator (whomever that was) could not work until a Dozer Boss was pulled from the BR shots.”
Okay, that actually makes sense, because the (T) after Hernandez’s name means he was a trainee, and would have to work under a qualified DOZB or HEQB.”
Putting the lock on the circle of “why are we talking about this?’
And, that’s right, Gary Cordes’ plan required a dozer:
FIRE20+ says
DECEMBER 2, 2014 AT 1:38 PM
SNIP
…the documentation in the Blue Ridge pdf only says “Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.
Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision back to Dozer line. Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in subdivision. Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of manzanita and lockwood.””
Weirdly enough, I just did a very big search and the first reference I can find re Justin Hernandez is at the start of Chapter VI and it starts with Calvin asking:
“calvin says
MARCH 22, 2014 AT 4:11 AM
Was the “dozer operator” from 6/30 (Justin Hernandez?) interviewed? Are there any comments available that were 1. Made by him, or 2. Made about him and his whereabouts after the entrapment and burnover of GMIHC?
We now know from Dan Philbun that the dozer was actually immobilized after power lines fell on the dozer IN YARNELL, and that he helped untangle it later in the evening. We also know that during the search and rescue effort, Ranger 58 was searching for 20-22 people (TOL… 22 would have been GMIHC, DIVS, and dozer operator)
Questions.
1. Where was dozer operator (Justin Hernandez?) when the power lines collapsed (presumably an effect from the fire)? Still with the dozer?
…”
I can’t find anything at all before that.
Even just searching “Justin.”
I know it was anchored somewhere, but I can’t find it.
Weird.
OK. I finally finally finally found it. It’s not Justin, it’s Joseph Hernandez. And, yes it was Sitta who found him.
“Sitta says
JANUARY 24, 2014 AT 3:21 AM
Calvin,
I’ve looked through the dispatch resource orders:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v8x3epmb8nent9l/JeqvhLLMKv
I can find no resource order for a dozer boss on 6/30/13, but there is one for a heavy equipment boss (HEQB).
Request Number: O-21
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 0227
Resource Requested: Heavy Equipment Boss, Single Resource (HEQB) (T-A)
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0900
Resource Assigned: Hernandez, Joseph (T)
Estimated Time of Arrival: 06/30/13 1045 (Compare needed time to ETA — we can’t always get resources as soon as we want them.)”
Just found where the name Justin came from.
“Marti Reed says
FEBRUARY 2, 2014 AT 7:39 PM
Big Snip
After reading what I read this afternoon, in the Yarnell Interview Notes, the reason Ball needed to stop at the YFD was to “get a quad from FD, and was trying to get on the dozer line to tie in w/ Justin to check it people evacuating trying to get out.” (page 4 of the BR interview.) He was still worried about Justin and the dozer.”
The name Justin came from the Blue Ridge Interview notes. It’s right there.
“Ball got a quad from FD, and was trying to get on the dozer line to tie in w/ Justin to check it people evacuating trying to get out. At manzanita and lockwood fire was already in the subdivision.”
So I guess we come full circle!
Anyway, that’s how we discovered the Heavy Equipment Boss Trainee, Joseph Hernandez, and then started calling him Justin Hernandez.
By the way, that’s all in Chapter IV. Sorry.
Along with lots of conversation we had after discovering, in those Blue Ridge notes, that Musser ordered the dozer to relocate to the north side of the fire.
Which, clearly, for all the reasons we’ve been talking about, didn’t happen.
So………..
I was thinking, “Why are we talking about this when we need to be talking about the 21 Aaron Hulburd videos??????”
Oh, that’s right.
The Gary Cordes plan.
it needed a dozer.
As WTKTT wrote 24 hours ago on December 2, 2014 at 9:24 PM:
“This line from ( Ball’s ) BR Unit Log has always been important…
“Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of manzanita and lockwood.”
( NOTE: The sentence immediately following this in Ball’s Log has been totally REDACTED. ).
This ‘Unit Log’ statement actually matches exactly a radio transmission that has ALWAYS been sitting right there in the ‘Helmet Cam’ video which also captured all the MAYDAY traffic.
That would be Hulburd video M2U00265.
At the end of the video… we hear Tyson Esquibel telling SPGS1 Gary Cordes that he didn’t ‘copy that last transmission’… and Cordes comes right back with the exact same report of ‘fire at intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita’ that Ball’s Unit Log say he reported to Cordes himself.
Cordes even speaks the same WRONG NAME of ‘Lockwood’ ( instead of ‘Lakewood’ ) when reporting to Esquibel which is exactly what Ball’s Unit Log said he reported to Cordes.”
I definitely screwed up the order of these posts.
Sorry.
I think I need to do other stuff and get some exercise tomorrow.
I think the “filled” time for that E-16 dozer is a typo, or back-fill or something.
Looking now at the AZ Dispatch WildCAD Log, reporting party, Congress Fire Dept.pdf
There are some conversations there about the dozers.
At 6/30/2013 14:46:21 DENNY says to KM:
“Foulk: 1st dozer that is on the fire. CAT DOZER TYPE 2 D78. 10618 Serial# AGN01551 EQ# 06562. 2nd is a CAT DOZER. Coming from Verde. D68 Type 2. PAD#: 9690, Serial#: AAX00270. EZU#:03562”
Thus some of our confusion, I think.
There’s also some conversation there about the “Yuma” engine(s).
But I need to do some other things.
And, yeah, I can understand your getting confused about what’s being said about the dozer(s).
That thread was a mess.
But that’s kind of what happens when we’re discussing something complicated and confusing.
I still think when the dozer skedaddled out of the Youth Camp area, either just after or a few hours after he had put those short dozer lines up there (where the crews were cutting brush to tie the line into the rocks), he skedaddled down to where the lo-boy was parked, and neither he nor the dozer nor the lo-boy got much further than that before the fire blew around them.
But since there is just no “evidence” of what happened at this point, it’s really still impossible to know.
The other thing about that dozer in the Air2Air video is that that crossing, heading toward the west, of the camera happened at 4:36 PM, and there’s no capture of the dozer passing it again heading east.
Which it definitely would have had to have done, and extremely quickly, in order to get back to Glen Illah by the time Ball headed into Glen Illah to tie in with the dozer.
The physics just don’t work, in my opinion.
Seems like a lack of evidence to put the story to gather.
The cat on the lowboy could have gone to a location to turn around
and came back just no picture or maybe it was a loop road lot of guessing here.
seems strange the cat/lowboy would have headed into the mouth of the fire?
That road is Hays Ranch Road. It heads to the Incident Command Post at Model Creek School from 89.
That’s where I think it was going. To check in, like everybody else was supposed to do when they came to the fire.
It just can’t be anything that, 10 minutes later, had gotten up to somewhere in Glen Ilah for Ball to have to go into in order to tie in with.
Especially given the insane traffic that was happening everywhere at that time.
Marti I posted below about the dozer resource order E-16 and it matching the second dozer, based on the equipment numbers (03562) and a dispatch log.
I see differences between the two dozers in the pics you posted.
Gotcha. Good.
So………
Does that say anything to your wondering about why it was listed as a type 2 dozer when it looks to you like a type 1?
I really know nothing about dozer stuff.
Except that I had about ten of them, in various sizes and shapes, parking and working on the streets around my house for two and a half months.
All of the dozers look like the same one. The one at the mini-mart is on the same low-boy as the one on the highway. Regarding the highway pictures, there appears to be a county emblem on the dozer and the trailer.
If it was a county employee, it would explain why he did not have a red card, AND why they (driver & dozer) were not in the resource ordering system.
OK I can see the emblem fuzzy but you are correct.
If it was not under contract agreement with the state and red carded it could not be used a fire resource. So maybe the county was doing something seperiate?
we are looking at 2 of the same model of Cat which would make that clearer.
Those dozers do all sort of look alike. Again, E-16 is for a county resource. AZ-YAO, is a Yavapai County resource. And there are two AZ-YAO dozer resources on the YHF. To not have one piece of equipment on a resource order is odd, not SOP. Also, no dozer operators are ordered in ROSS, they come as a package along with the dozer in the contract. But curious, why wouldn’t county resources need to be red carded?
Actually, the second dozer, the one on the transport on Hays Ranch Road in the video, is privately owned, by a company*Mays Machinery” located in Buckeye, and it was transported to the fire “from Verde.”
So that Dozer dose not have County stickers on it?
I was speaking of the ones in the photos, not the dozer in the video.
Ok clearing the fog. Thanks
From the WildCAD;
“06/20/2013 RUSS to BB
Wants to place an order for a T-3-4-5 Dozer and Dozer Boss/Heavy Equipment Boss as well Try local first”
Forgot to type the time of that.
It was 02:19:52
Apparently, Russ wanting a Dozer Boss and a Heavy Equipment boss with that Dozer didn’t quite make it.
My understanding had been that Sonny and Joy started leaving the fire on June 30th at the time that they did because Eric Marsh had spoken to them and specifically indicated to them that they needed to move along so that retardant drops could be done without worrying about dropping on them (e.g. “civilians,” to quote Joy, I think). My understanding had also been that the reason why Joy went out to the fire on June 30th was to get pictures because a local person (maybe in Congress) had been been wondering about the fire and its location (perhaps vis a vis Congress), so, by the time Marsh raised the idea to Sonny and Joy of their getting out of the area, Joy had already taken pictures (which she had set out that day to do), such that it was not a hugely contentious issue for them to start leaving the area at that point (as Marsh seemed to have instructed or indicated).
Am I misremembering these things?
that we were in muchYes and Joy wanted to warn any people such as hikers or campers that were in the area. Do note less danger than those in Yarnell- There were many people that never got a warning and barely escaped by the skin of their teeth—If you listen to their stories you would be horrified at how the situation was handled and how some older folks would have perished had not neighbors risked their own lives to get them out. There was no warning system in place. As it was we had a good vantage point on the fire and only had to cross over the ridge where the terrain has sparse vegetation–something those men could have done and one alternative they had that would have saved them as it did us. The only danger we faced was had we dropped down as those men did we would not be here today and likely Joy’s camera would have burned. We did beat the fire by only a few minutes ourselves but that was because we had to parallel 89 to get back to Candie Lane. My car would have gone up in smoke since it was parked under a huge tree that was totally burned away.
The situation all added up to a debacle–one reason I could not see anyone taking accolades for what occurred that day. As one deputy told us–it was total confusion that day.
reply in CAPS to EN. We have no issue to ever share our accounts yet a question back to you since you know publicly once I stated I will pass over your comments but than later shared I am okay with everyone so I hope you understand I had a bad week last week and I am okay with everyone. As long as you understand that I will reply to you on the understanding you know I have no concern to you just hard for my personality to understand some areas on why you insist on always speaking or writing as Calvin did yesterday on “transparency”…in regards to me. With that said…my reply below in CAPS. We were heading to a new county today to see if we still get followed and saw by cell on your message so stopped at library to reply.
————————————-
My understanding had been that Sonny and Joy started leaving the fire on June 30th at the time that they did because Eric Marsh had spoken to them and specifically indicated to them that they needed to move along so that retardant drops could be done without worrying about dropping on them (e.g. “civilians,” to quote Joy, I think).CORRECT. ERIC MARSH STATED THE FIRE LINE AREA NOT THE MOUNTAINS BECAUSE THEY WERE DUE TO MAKE RETARDANT DROP HENCE WHEN FAILING PIECE OF INFORMATION IS THAT IT IS MORNING AND I WOKE UP AND LEFT THAT CABIN #15 AND NEVER YET WENT NUMBER 2 LIKE NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS DO AND I HAD TO GO SINCE SECOND CONVERSATION WITH ERIC MARSH AND WAS SCOUTING THE WEAVER MOUNTAIN MOUNTAIN TOP FOR A POSSIBLE SAFE AREA WITH AERIAL FLYING ABOVE AND THOSE LITTLE ANTS WALKING UP AKA GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS (WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE WALKING UP THE MOUNTAIN FROM THE TOP) AND THE MAN ON THE HILLTOP WITH ERIC MARSH AND ME BEING THE ONLY FEMALE THERE SO YES AFTER LEAVING ERIC MARSH ON THIRD ACCOUNT AND WE PASSED BY AND HAD OUR BRIEF CONVERSATION TO GMHS I WAS STILL LOOKING FOR “MY SAFE SPOT TO GO” AND I CHOOSE THE HUGE BOULDERS A SAFE DISTANCE AWAY FROM THE FIRE LINE AND WE WERE TOLD BY YARNELL FIRE DEPARTMENT THAT THE FIRE WAS UNDER CONTROL AND WE HAD ALL THOSE FIREFIGHTERS UP THERE AND AERIAL AND WE WERE A VERY SAFE DISTANCE AWAY FROM THE FIRE LINE AND LET US KEEP IN MIND LAST NIGHT SONNY SAID I AM STUBBORN ON THE ACCOUNT OF NOT GOING HIS WAY BUT KEEP IN MIND THAT WEEK I WALKED FROM PRESCOTT DMV TO JUST ABOUT THE AREA OF WILHOIT/ROAD THAT GOES TO SKULL VALLEY PLUS WE HIKED FRIDAY, SATURDAY AND THAT SUNDAY SO WHEN I HAD TAKEN MY SNAKE BOOTS OFF ON THE 2 TRACK RIDGE OVER BY WHERE THEY GMHS LATER THAT DAY DESCENDED TO THEIR DEPLOYMENT I WAS NOT READY WITH THE INTENSE HEAT TO MOVE ASAP BECAUSE I AM A WOMAN THAT IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL WAS IN FORT HIGH UP IN THE PINES THAT I BUILT IN TOMS RIVER NEW JERSEY WHO 2 TEENS SET IT ON FIRE WITH ME IN IT AND I HAD TO GET OUT BURNING SO I HAD A FEAR OF FIRE SO FOR ME TO SIT AND WATCH AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT AS SONNY EXPLAINED THINGS TO ME BUT WHEN HE GOT THE SENSE TO GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE I COULD NOT UNDERSTAND HIS FEAR OF WHAT HE WAS SEEING…I CAN UNDERSTAND THE POINT EN IS TRYING TO MAKE IS TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS IT DID NOT HAVE TO BE A CLOSE CALL FOR US AS SONNY STATED BASED ON LOCALS ACCOUNTS OF THE AREA BUT INDEED HAD WE NOT STAYED THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN “MORE” BRUSHED UNDER THE RUG THAN WHAT YOU ALREADY SEE BUT MY PHOTOS SHOW THE VERY AREA THE MEN DIED “THAT” MORNING. PLUS SO MUCH MORE AND DID YOU SEE ANY FIREFIGHTER THAT WAS UP THERE SHARE PHOTOS LIKE US…AND THERE WAS MORE THAN THE GMHS UP THERE SO I KNOW GOD ORCHESTRATED IT JUST RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND SONNY WANTING PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THE CHAOS OF THE EVACUATION OF THOSE FINAL HOURS—I GET IT. DID THIS ANSWER YOU THAT YES I AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT BUT PUT OUT THE FULL STATEMENT NOT JUST PARTIAL THAT CAN BE TWISTED- My understanding had also been that the reason why Joy went out to the fire on June 30th was to get pictures because a local person (maybe in Congress)CORRECT STATEMENT PLUS AGAIN MISSING DETAIL BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO USUALLY STAY IN STANTON DO CAMP IN THAT AREA IN SUMMER MONTHS AND I HAVE A WITNESS BILL WHO KNOWS THAT DETAIL . MY HIKING PAL RONDA CARNES WHO WORKS AT THE CONGRESS COUNTRY GAS STATION IS THE ONE WHO FIRST ALERTED ME OF THE YHF BY CELL PHONE AND I ASSIST ALOT OF ELDERS IN CONGRESS AND SO YES TO MAKE SURE THEY FEEL AT EASE I DID BUT AGAIN YFD STATED IT WAS ALL HANDLED SO WE FELT SAFE TO BE IN AREA had been been wondering about the fire and its location EXACTLY AND PHONE RECORDS CAN BE CHECKED AS THAT IS 100% FACTS AS I KEP TTHEM IN THE LOOP BY PHONE THAT DAY(perhaps vis a vis Congress)ALL CONGRESS AS WELL AS MARGARET RAMSEY WHO IS IN WHEEL CHAIR SCOOTER WHO RUNS THE FOOD BANK AND WILMA CAIN WERE MY YARNELL FOCUS OF PEOPLE SO TO SEE IF THEY NEED TO START EVACUATING BECAUSE DISABLED PEOPLED WHO TAKES MEDS HAVE TO TAKE LONGER THAN SAY US TO EVACUATE, so, by the time Marsh raised the idea to Sonny and Joy of their getting out of the areaFIRE LINE AREA WAS MENTIONED BY ERIC MARSH HE NEVER SAID OFF THE WEAVERS ONLY BECAUSE MARSH KNEW WE WERE HEADED ON THE WEAVERS LEFT FOLLOWING THE PATH TO THE GLEN ILAH SUBDIVISION CANDIE CANE LANE AREA AS MY HAND GESTURES GUIDED HIM VISUALLY THAT PATH BUT I AM SURE AS I ALREADY DREAMNT THIS AND SOME LOCALS KNOW MY DREAM THAT IT IS POSSIBLE EN OR STATE FOLKS WILL RETURN COMMENT AND I WILL NOT STATE IT BUT WE ALL ESPECIALLY A COUNTY EMPLOYEE WHO KNOWS ME WE ALL KNOW HOW THINGS WILL GET TWISTED TO MAKE IT SOMEONE ELSE’S OWN CREATION” YET THE BOTTOM LINE IF WE HAD NOT GONE UP THERE WE WERE ASSURED THAT THERE COULD OF BEEN MORE CASUALTIES OR INJURIES DUE TO THE DECEPTION OF THOSE BOULDERS. , Joy had already taken pictures CORRECT BECAUSE SONNY TOLD ME TO—MY CAMERA HUNG OFF MY NECK AND WAS STORED WHEN I WENT TO THE BATHROOM IN THE BOULDERS AND SONNY WOULD HAVE TO ASK ME TO TAKE IT OUT TO GET THE PHOTOS OF THE FIRE AND VEHICLES AND I WAS NOT GONNA—I WAS THERE WATCHING IT BUT HE INSISTED—SO I DID(which she had set out that day to do)NO. TAKE A COUPLE FOR THE ELDERS AND MY HIKING PAL BUT THE MANY TAKEN WERE DUE TO SONNY INSISTING…, such that it was not a hugely contentious issue for them to start leaving the area at that pointYEAH WE DID WHAT WE WENT OUT THERE FOR OVERALL—I DID WANT TO SEE MORE OF THE CONGRESS SIDE CLOSE UP BUT WE SAW IT AS WE TRAVELLED THE MOUNTAIN TOPS AT CERTAIN POINTS FROM AFAR—GOOD ENOUGH (as Marsh seemed to have instructed or indicated).
Am I misremembering these things?YES REMEMBERED FINE YET ME I LIKE DETAILS AND AS YOU SEE I GIVE ALL DETAILS WHICH EVERY TINY DETAIL DOES MATTER IN THE WHOLE PACKAGE ESPECIALLY MORE PEOPLE SHARING THEIR ACCOUNTS AND PHOTOS AND VIDOES…GOTTA RUN…GOOD TO SEE YOU EN…THANK YOU FOR THE COMMENT.
real qucik…since the fire we have seen slander and misinformation on the hikers but EN’s comment made me think of the one where one ignorant soul felt us being on the hill killed 19 men because Eric Marsh knew the way we went by conversation and visual. yet keep in mind Eric Marsh was briefed that morning about BSR (the helms) and has aerial and radio and etc. so it is silly to make such a strong accusation
Thank you Otis, Eric and Charlie for your private emails that one got off here on comment wall, one of Wildfire T- Bill G’s page and one who researched it out elsewhere. Thank you for the in country as well as out of country very very good information/kindness and we appreciate it and Eric as soon as I have pc time we will fulfill your request and seriously thank you Otis.
we are finally getting my pizza.
yummy.
Thank you Otis, Eric and Charlie for your private emails that one got off here on comment wall, one of Wild fire T- Bill G’s page and one who researched it out elsewhere. Thank you for the in country as well as out of country very very good information/kindness and we appreciate it and Eric as soon as I have pc time we will fulfill your request and seriously thank you Otis
we are finally getting my pizza.
yummy.
Thank you Otis, Eric and Charlie for your private emails that one got off here on comment wall, one of Wildfire Today and one who researched it out elsewhere. Thank you for the in country as well as out of country very very good information/kindness and we appreciate it and Eric as soon as I have pc time we will fulfill your request and seriously thank you Otis…we are finally getting my pizza….yummy…
Every one should check where SONNY SAYs Dec.2 4:28
and the reply’s just under the post by Elizabeth and Calvin.
What else can I say.
SONNY for get it Idiots don’t deserve a response.
Mr. Powers… here is DIRECT ‘jump link’ to the comment you are referring to…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-195759
Helpful hint: If there is ever ANY comment in ANY chapter of this ongoing discussion that you want people to ‘jump down and read’, or something… you can always add a ‘jump link’ like the one above and it will take people right to it.
The SECRET is to ‘just LEFT-CLICK the little ‘Date and Time’ field that accompanies each and every comment… then pick the ‘Copy Link Location’ option on the little POPUP menu that appears.
That copies the URL of the chapter to your clipboard AND adds that ‘Comment number’ anchor block item to the end of the URL ( as shown above ).
Clicking a link like that takes you RIGHT to the comment you want people to read.
Thanks WTKTT Dam Computers need to learn more. Also I think it is a left click??
Mental note made never to old to learn….
WOOPS Right click???? will have to play with it first opportunity…
Bob said But I will not tolerate attacks on any one here without a reply.
Unless the attacks are against me or Elizabeth, right?
Still waiting on that documentation that the dozer was loaded up and taken away. But we will never see it, because it doesn’t exist,
Looks like there needs t be a lot more fact checking going on concerning your uninformed comments.
Good day bob and try to keep your emotions in check today.
With your comments posted from last night I would think Calvin/Elizabeth would not be welcome here any more.
You have shown your true colors.
Also note the Picture that Marti has of the Cat on a Trailer in the Parking lot at the Restaurant. Is it or is it not the Cat in question.
Off on my times Ball could no more scout at 1627 as the fire was in full swing with the winds every thing North of Glen Isla was on fire.
As Marti said the overhead was in the dust chasing the Fire.
Putting a hand crew and or a cat in front of that fire was not going to happen
The Air tankers couldn’t even slow it down. The best place was to get out of the way until it made its run.
Keeping my emotions in check after the Calvin/Elizabeth statements last night as referenced above. I feel no obligation to comment any further on any of your postings. I had very little respect for either of you before last night now I have NONE and no one else here should either.
Bob that is what I tell Joy–some of the things said do not deserve a reply.
For my own consolation on fire retardant I wanted to know what that 8% of hidden under “Trade Secret” guise is. The VA doctor I have is from India and seems she and I don’t communicate well–I asked if she or one of her interns might get that information since they can. She said she was too busy to look at that, Well most of the people that have died since the fire are elderly but the count to me seems to be too high for such a small community. I am not a fire fighter, but you would think that should be public information as to what people are getting into their lungs. Although most of the people that have deceased since the fire are elderly, the count seems too high to not be looked at. Another person died just a day ago and the count past 35 seems high considering there are only 645 residents in Yarnel and about 450 or so in Peeples Valley.
Something else that bothers me is that no one has approached us about the photos of the two quads said to be up there shortly before the fire and on into the night. Joy knows who has the photos taken by a long distance camera and blown up shows a man with a tool of sorts in his hand. Joy says there are more than those photos as other witnesses saw lights up there on Friday night. Someone would be doing some explaining there if they find out who was up there.
Bob do you know how many tons of retardant that jet liner in the photo dropped behind U Sto It storage units? I wonder too what it costs the state for a drop like that.
My previous post skipped around somehow so the first line does not make sense. Not much does on this thing as of yet–maybe it never will totally be found out. but thanks to you fellows that have experience in these matters we are getting closer. Also to Marti for doing such a good job interpreting those photos. I will be first to admit that about the best we can do to help is keep finding photos to deliver up. Some people are talking a bit, but I can understand how they would worry about job security. Some have already been relieved, but it is on the lower ranks we find–don’t know if it is related to talking about the fire but there is lots of sensitivity there.
One guy who is savvy in the firefighting profession thinks his phone is tapped and another thinks the FBI is watching him–whew paranoia? I do hope the feds FBI or outside investigators come in now— maybe that would clear things up. Maybe Dr. Ted Putnam has completed his book on Mann Gulch so he can give this one more of his time.
On the Air drop the big one can drop in different sequencies
1000Gal, 2000 Gal. and 4000 Gal. or larger a full salvo drop and yes they aren’t cheep.
Ask Dr. Ted Putnam he could give you the info or where to find it on Retardant Chemicals I am not up on the new mix.
Reply to FIRE20+ post on December 2, 2014 at 1:38 pm
NOTE: Brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.
Calvin and FIRE20+ were discussing the evidence ( which DOES exist ) that BR Hotshot Ball and ‘one other’ person ( most likely Dozer Operator Justin Hernandez ) WERE instructed by SPGS1 Gary Cordes to ‘scout out’ the possibility of pushing an emergency ‘dozer line / fire break’ down there in the Glen Ilah area… even WHILE the fire was hitting Gary Cordes’ “Aw SHIT Ridge’ trigger point for all resources to ‘evacuate’ to the Ranch House Restaurant ‘Safety Zone’.
>> FIRE20+ said…
>>
>> Got it Calvin, thanks. one more thing, where did you get “Trew and Hernandez”
>> from because the documentation in the Blue Ridge pdf only says…
>>
>> “Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility
>> of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.
>> Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision back to Dozer line.
>> Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in subdivision.
>> Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner
>> of manzanita and lockwood.”
RE: ‘Trew’
I believe that was just a typo on Calvin’s part. He is the one who has proved ( many times ) that it was BR Hotshot Ball who received those instructions to ‘scout a dozer line’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes even as all resources were evacuating to the designated ‘Safety Zone’ at the Ranch House Restaurant.
RE: “Notify structure group”
There is no doubt those Unit Log entries are from Ball’s Unit Log. It’s the same Unit Log that says its author was assigned DOZB duties that morning because Hernandez didn’t have ‘a card’.
This line from ( Ball’s ) BR Unit Log has always been important…
“Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of manzanita and lockwood.”
( NOTE: The sentence immediately following this in Ball’s Log has been totally REDACTED. ).
This ‘Unit Log’ statement actually matches exactly a radio transmission that has ALWAYS been sitting right there in the ‘Helmet Cam’ video which also captured all the MAYDAY traffic.
That would be Hulburd video M2U00265.
At the end of the video… we hear Tyson Esquibel telling SPGS1 Gary Cordes that he didn’t ‘copy that last transmission’… and Cordes comes right back with the exact same report of ‘fire at intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita’ that Ball’s Unit Log say he reported to Cordes himself.
Cordes even speaks the same WRONG NAME of ‘Lockwood’ ( instead of ‘Lakewood’ ) when reporting to Esquibel which is exactly what Ball’s Unit Log said he reported to Cordes.
The OFFICIAL transcript that was released by Arizona Forestry with this original ‘Helmet Cam’ video back in December of 2013 was always pretty deficient when it came to ‘hearing’ what are actually some pretty clear parts of the audio.
Good example was near the end of the 7 minute and 49 second video at around the +6:52 mark.
Here is what the official SAIT / FOIA transcript said for that ‘end’ part…
——————————————————————————-
06:30 (16:39:46 hours):
(Radio transmission from unknown frequency.)
Person: Taskforce
06:42 (16:39:58 hours):
(Radio transmission on air to ground from unknown resource)
Person: Bravo 33 on air to ground.
06:52 (16:40:08 hours)
Bravo 33: Granite Mountain 7, Bravo 33 air to ground.
06:58 (16:40:14 hours):
(Radio transmission from unknown frequency.) (Transmission cannot be understood)
07:24 (16:40:40 hours)
Taskforce 2: (the beginning of the transmission isn’t understandable)
???…Taskforce 2 on Tac 3
Person: Yea go.
Taskforce 2: I didn’t copy….(the transmission becomes unreadable)
Person: You have fire from Lockwood and (not readable) Drive. Intersection.
07:48 (16:41:04 hours)
Unseen firefighter on the road: (Talking amongst themselves)
Firefighter: Hey
07:49: (16:41:05)
(End of video)
———————————————————————————–
The ACTUAL transcript ( and TIME stamps ) should have been the following…
NOTE: It’s now a given that the original timestamps in that ‘official’ transcript for the ‘Helmet Cam’ video first released by Arizona Forestry were almost exactly 6 minutes off ( too early )… so the timestamps below are also more accurate…
————————————————————————–
+6:38 ( 1645.50 / 4:45.50 PM )
(Unknown): Taskforce.
+6:43 ( 1645.55 / 4:45.55 PM )
(Bravo 33 – John Burfiend): Alpha… Bravo 33 on Air To Ground.
+6:52 ( 1646.04 / 4:46.04 PM )
(Bravo 33 – John Burfiend): Granite Mountain 7, Bravo 33 air to ground.
+6:58 ( 1646.10 / 4:46.10 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): This is Task Force 2. Any copy to your (??)
+7:24 ( 1646.36 / 4:46.36 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): Structure Group ONE, Taskforce TWO on TAC THREE.
+7:29 ( 1646.41 / 4:46.41 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Yea go.
+7:31 ( 1646.43 / 4:46.43 PM )
(TLFD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): I didn’t copy that ( last transmission ).
+7:33 ( 1646.45 / 4:46.45 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): You have fire from Lockwood and Manzanita Drive. Intersection.
+7:47 ( 1646.59 / 4:46.59 PM )
(Foreground – Unknown): ( To Aaron Hulburd) Hey.
+7:48 ( 1647.00 / 4:47.00 PM )
(Aaron Hulburd): Hey
+7:49 ( 1647.01 / 4:47.01 PM )
(End of video)
—————————————————————————
So here is Ball’s BR Unit Log entry again about what he reported to SPGS1 Gary Cordes…
“Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of manzanita and lockwood.”
And here is what SPGS1 Gary Cordes tells Esquibel about a transmission that just took place at 1646.45 ( 4:36.45 PM )
+7:33 ( 1646.45 / 4:46.45 PM )
(SPGS1 Cordes): You have fire from Lockwood and Manzanita Drive. Intersection.
They are virtually identical… right down to both Ball and Cordes mistakenly calling ‘Lakewood’ drive ‘Lockwood’ drive.
So this seems to be the same exact moment reported by Ball in his ‘Unit Log’ when he had reached that intersection of Lakewood and Manaznita Drives in the borrowed ATV… and he then realized he was NOT going to be able to carry out this ‘line construction scouting mission’ that SPGS1 Gary Cordes had assigned him.
It was too late for that. The fire had already ‘arrived’ in Glen Ilah.
Ball’s photo of the sign at Lakewood and Manzanita. using an iPhone 4S, is at 4:47:02 PM.
That would match the timing for the transmission ( circa 4:46 PM ) from Ball to Cordes reporting ‘fire at intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita’.
Yep.
Ball’s photo at the Yarnell Fire Department, where he got the ATV, was taken at 4:28:33 PM.
Marti.
Doesn’t it seem reckless that Cory Ball was re entering the danger zone (in front of a racing wildfire), alone or with Hernandez), as late as 1630?
We have heard all this stuff about what an ultra safe crew these BRH were/are. Remember the comment by Robert (from BRH?) over at Wildfire Today, stating that he would have made the same mistake as GMH.
And also M2U00272 shows Frisby leave the relative safety of the group/equipment at the 1:18 mark and walk directly toward a propane tank that is actively venting. I mean really. What the hell was he doing? The videographer seems to be curious also, as to what he is doing, as he follows his movements. I first thought he could have been taking a piss. But it doesn’t appear so. Plus why the hell walk toward the danger to do that.
It seems more likely that he was in search for a little privacy? I cant tell for sure, but it appears that he is making a radio call at the 1:18- 1:19 mark. Sure makes me wonder.
I again just have to wonder out loud. Are ALL these WFF’s taking unnecessary, adrenalized risks, constantly? We have seen evidence as in the Trenton Snyder videos that it is possible. And we have seen that these issues do not seem to be reported (as with the Snyder videos)
I haven’t downloaded that video yet. But I watched it a couple of times before and just re-watched it now.
The first few times I watched it, I thought Frisby was scouting. They seemed to be (for obvious reasons) having a tough time trying to figure out a route through all of that.
And watching 273R (wondering, now, why is that a redacted video???) seems to confirm that. They follow a route in the direction Frisby walked toward that burning structure.
I don’t think his concern was about privacy. He could have taken a leak right next to the UTVs and I don’t think anybody would have cared, much less video’d it.
You say:
“I again just have to wonder out loud. Are ALL these WFF’s taking unnecessary, adrenalized risks, constantly?”
I don’t think they are constantly. But I guess it depends.
I think what’s happening here, and also with Ball, is that they think one of their co-workers are in danger of their lives. And, I think, when that happens, the usual rules no longer quite apply.
Remember, in one of these videos, they mention that they don’t want to become another “part of the problem.”
So it’s a pretty serious tension here.
It’s totally apparent as they are driving through all that fire, they are scared as hell. But they are doing that, in their minds, because they think they may have a chance of saving their (for all of them) brothers.
When Ball drives in, it’s for something of a different purpose. To try to tie in with Justin. But he doesn’t get very far at all. But it’s still to tie in with someone he’s worked all day with. Who, at this point, doesn’t even have a radio. I don’t think he believed he was “at risk” until he got to that Manzanita sign.
And then, I think, he gave up, and went back to the Ranch House Restaurant. And probably, given the confused DPS report, said something to somebody that Justin might be “missing.”
Now that I’ve written all of this, I’m sitting here thinking, it’s interesting that his next set of photos, where he went back into Glen Ilah, don’t have anything at all regarding the dozer and Justin, and neither do his logs, unless that was redacted out.
???
“this original ‘Helmet Cam’ video back in December of 2013 ”
This video is M2U00265.mp4, which means it has been EDITED. And it’s 720×480, as opposed to all the other M2UxxxxxR.mp4s which are 1920×1080.
WTK.
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. It was a typo. I meant Cory Ball, not Trew Brown.
It is quite stunning that Cory Ball (as late as 1630) was out scouting, looking for, 1. Hernandez and the dozer and 2. A place to construct line to the SW of Yarnell.
1. I wonder what time Ball left the dozer and headed to get the ATV?
2. I also wonder where Hernandez and that dozer (cat) was, when the fire pushed past them?
3. I suspect the air support promised by Abel, and overheard and documented by Panebaker, the GMIHC, DIVA, and Ball/Hernandez were all part of the same equation. Which was to keep fire out of Glen Isla. This is only my opinion. I will not pretend there is documentation somewhere out there that supports my thought. You should learn to do the same bob.
calvin… I have said this before and I will say it again.
Your ‘theory’ that there was this definite ‘plan’ to build more line ( yes… right in front of the advancing fireline ) down there in front of Glen Ilah in a last ditch effort to keep the fire out of the Glen Ilah subdivision… AND that this was somehow related to the MOVE that Granite Mountain was making…
…has ALWAYS been valid.
It’s possible this all had a LOT more to do with WHY Granite Mountain left the safe black then anyone has been led to believe so far.
The recent discovery of this additional ‘good plan’ between Cordes and Esquibel about sending one ( or more ) engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch in this same timeframe just lends more credence to the idea that SOMETHING was planned for that ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ area ( like tying line INTO it, or something ).
And you have ALWAYS been right that finding out exactly what happened with Dozer operator Justin Hernandez… and WHY he was never even interviewed… is one of the ongoing crucial mysteries of that afternoon.
Also…
Now that we have more contiguous voice recordings of what Gary Cordes sounds like talking on the radio… I really am starting to believe we now have a ‘good match’ for his voice in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video itself.
Cordes very well COULD have been that person ( at 4:27 ) who was the recipient of that ‘report’ from Marsh that GM was ‘coming from the heel of the fire’ in response to an urge ( from Cordes? ) for them to ‘hurry up’.
I am preparing some new ‘voice loop clips’ that compare those two voices.
Something may very well still be discovered that ‘ties all this together’ into a scenario where SPGS1 Gary Cordes had a LOT more to do with Granite Mountain making the move they did than anyone has ever known before.
More later
Please remind me again where you get the name Justin Hernandez as the Dozer Operator WTKTT and Calvin?
WEKTT said:
Calvin and FIRE20+ were discussing the evidence ( which DOES exist ) that BR Hotshot Ball and ‘one other’ person ( most likely Dozer Operator Justin Hernandez ) WERE instructed by SPGS1 Gary Cordes to ‘scout out’ the possibility of pushing an emergency ‘dozer line / fire break’ down there in the Glen Ilah area… even WHILE the fire was hitting Gary Cordes’ “Aw SHIT Ridge’ trigger point for all resources to ‘evacuate’ to the Ranch House Restaurant ‘Safety Zone’.
Anybody see anything here that raises another question?
Ball’s Unit Log:
“Ball got a quad from FD, and was trying to get on the dozer line to tie in w/ Justin to check it people evacuating trying to get out. At manzanita and lockwood fire was already in the subdivision. There in the buggies and the fire is pushing them out.”
Also Ball said here that he was going into tie in with Justin to check it (if) people evacuating trying to get out. Not Ball and the plus one was Justin. Where were the dozer and lowboy parked again when the fire turned? If the dozer/lowboy were like every other resource, how the hell would they know to RTO ever?! Most resources were surprised by the fire behavior.
Did you know in R58 and crews account they say they were originally searching for crew, DIVS and Dozer? Weird.
Ball’s photo 1883 of the dozer headed toward him and the Blue Ridge crew headed away from him on the cutover dozer line is taken at 3:30:02 PM.
Ball’s photo 1884 at the white gate at the top of Manzanita/Lakewood, where, apparently, the dozer trailer and the Blue Ridge Utility Truck pulling its trailer had been parked, was taken at 3:50: 35 PM.
That was 20 minutes after the above photo and 38 minutes before he (riding shotgun in what I think is a white truck–but I could be wrong regarding the color of that truck), apparently, picked up the UTV at the Yarnell Fire Department. (I still don’t understand the difference between a UTV and an ATV).
Rick Tham’s photo 113, taken with an iPhone 4S at 4:30:19, shows a dozer on a trailer in the Mini-Mart parking lot.
In the Panebaker Air2Air video 1643, at 5 minutes and 12 seconds in, or about 4:36 PM, a dozer (I think we figured out it was a different one from the one related to Hernandes/Ball) on a trailer, crosses in front of the camera, heading west.
Oh, yes and, to be thorough, after Ball took the photo of the Manzanita sign, he took another photo of the fire burning there at 4:49, and then there are no more photos from Ball until 5:43, when he re-entered Glen Ilah. So whatever he was doing between 4:49 and 5:43, there is no visual record of it.
And there’s no visual record of “Ball’s/Blue Ridge’s/Cordes’/Hernandez'” dozer after 3:30 PM at all. (I’m assuming the dozer being hauled west on Hays Ranch Road is the same one as the one in Rick Tham’s photo).
So that’s pretty much all the related visual documentation (and the times are reliable, I believe) of Ball and the Dozers that I have in my collection.
And, BTW, there’s absolutely no data anywhere, that I know of, regarding how/when the Blue Ridge Utility Truck with its trailer was moved, or by whom, from where it had been parked at the top of Manzanita/Lockwood.
It is shown in the “Russ Reason” video and Tom Story’s photos, neatly parked next to the BR Superintendent’s Truck.
Typo. Lakewood, not Lockwood.
So we know the Dozer Lowboy was parked with the BR crew Vehicles
at Manzanita/Lakewood out side of Glen Isla.
Was the Cat on the trailer in the mini mart parking lot Hernandez Cat?
Marti people some times confuse UTV’s and ATV’s as the same. UTV is genially bigger than an ATV but look similar and haul more.
I don’t even know, judging by Ball’s photos, if he ever even made it all the way up to where the dozer truck/trailer with/without the dozer had been parked at the top of Manzanita/Lakewood.
I think his photo of the sign was taken on his way IN. And everything is burning in front of him. Which is what he told Cordes. And then there are, essentially no more photos on that trip. So it’s really hard to say.
And, also, I was thinking as I ran to the 7-11 and back, this whole thing is where that Peeples Valley guy’s somewhat jumbled story about what was happening up at the Youth Camp comes in.
I don’t even know where the link to that story is buried somewhere in my bookmarks at this point, so I can’t check it.
It seems to me it would be that, if the dozer put in those smaller lines up at the Youth Camp, it would have been after Ball photographed it heading TOWARDS him (i.e. headed in the direction of the Youth Camp) at 3:30.
I guess it COULD have been earlier. I’m just not sure. I was thinking about FIRE+20’s question about who was the “one other.” And trying to piece together a possible scenario in which Hernandez, with or without the dozer, came out with Ball.
The only way that could have happened is if the dozer DIDN’T go up to the Youth Camp and put in that line after 3:30. But I think it did.
I was just zipping thru this chapter, searching “Peeples” and came across where the Peeples Valley guy says they were up at the Youth Camp WAITING for the dozer to come put the line in and then tying that line to the rocks.
I vaguely remember him saying in the article that the dozer skedaddled out of there. And then they saw Blue Ridge doing the same.
So that seems to make it pretty clear that Hernandez, with or without the dozer, didn’t “come out” of Sesame with Ball.
I still the the “one other” is Hernandez, and Ball was going into Sesame in order to go up to where the dozer/truck-trailer would have, theoretically, still been parked. And I think Ball was alone, but there’s nothing to prove that.
There’s one more article I don’t have a link to, Ron Smith and Bob Brandon’s account. Not sure if these links work, not my forte, sorry.
These Peeples/Sun City/Wickenburg resources say that the dozer turned around at the wash, turned around like all the way around and headed BACK to Glen Ilah, back through the dozer line it had just constructed. The dozer turned around, according to one of the articles because he had heard the fire behavior had increased and changed directions. The resources on the other side of that wash were waiting for the dozer to tie in the line to them. Ever notice in the most recent helmet cam those resources who come walking out on foot from the Shrine road? They raise their hands up like “wtf”?! These are the same resources from these articles that got left behind because a supervisor told them to move their rigs.
http://www.yourwestvalley.com/suncitywest/article_469b6ad6-0e89-11e4-954f-0019bb2963f4.html?mode=print
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=133345&TM=83850.59
Thank you!!!!
That’s exactly what I was looking for.
I am sure the dozer in the mini-mart was the dozer in the air2air video.
There’s just no way, knowing what we do know (see what I wrote about the dozer at the Youth Camp), the dozer in the mini-mart parking lot could have been the one we’re talking about.
I am not seeing that Hernandez was ever interviewed.
so all we have is what Ball said. But not what the Dozer did
unless your account is correct and the dozer moved when the crew moved out?. With the lowboy Cant believe he would sit out the fire at the youth ranch.
There seems to have been only 1 Cat in that entire area?
My ‘educated guess’ on the timing there has always been….
1) Ball and Hernandez both ride the dozer back south from the cutover trail to that spot at the south end of the Sesame area where both the dozer loboy trailer and the BR chase truck with UTV trailer were located.
2) Sometime just before they get there Cordes gets Ball on the radio and tells him to keep dozer unloaded and to scout out emergency line work in that area that could tie into BSR ranch and hopefully force fire to ‘slide around’ to the SW and not enter Glen Ilah itself.
3) Ball now has TWO things to do. Get BR Chase truck to cafe’ where he knows Blue Ridge is currently evacuating to… AND then get on this ‘scouting mission’ Corded just gave him.
4) Ball tells Hernandez to NOT load up the dozer and to wait for him to return. Ball is assuming that as soon as he delivers BR Chase truck to cafe’ he will then be able to just use BR UTV to return back to Hernandez.
5) Ball arrives at cafe’ with BR Chase truck… but BR isn’t there yet. Now Ball has a problem. He has Hernandez and Dozer waiting on him back out at south end of Sesame area… but no UTV to get back and start scouting mission.
6) Ball explains his predicament to other FFs already at cafe’ and someone with YFD offers to drive Ball over to YFD fire station and let him borrow an ATV they have at station.
7) Ball is driven to YFD station in a white pickup, borrows YFD ATV and heads back to where Dozer operator Hernandez is still out there waiting for him to return.
8) Ball never makes it. Fire is now already entering Glen Ilah. Ball gets no farther back in than intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita… then calls Forces to tell him of fire at that location and that scouting mission is now both impossible AND pointless.
9) Hernandez had been waiting out there all this time for Ball to return. Ball never did. Hernandez survives burn-around at loboy parking location by hunkering in the cab of the dozer.
Whoops… smartphone spell checker strikes again. Once again… the word ‘Forces’ up above was supposed to be ‘Cordes’.
Not sure I agree with #9
I think Hernandez saw the fire activity increasing loaded the Dozer and left the parking area with his very expensive equipment.
We really have no clue except that Marti says a picture contains the Lowboy and cat leaving the area which she assumes is Hernandez with cat and lowboy.
I never said anything of the kind. Whatsoever.
I don’t know what you are talking about. At all.
Sorry meant to say in the mini mart Parking lot
And I’m also NOT assuming its the Hernandez cat.
I’m saying just the OPPOSITE.
Yes I got screwed up there Sorry Marti all the info got screwed around.
So you are saying there was more than 1 Cat
that is where I was getting confused and your 5 pictures seem to be of the same Cat or 2 seperiate cats that look the same.
Confused but trying to follow.
WTKTT,
Your #9 would certainly explain why rescue crews were also seeking to find the dozer operator, while thinking that he might have been burned-over as well.
Do we know if Hernandez even had a radio?
BRIHC SAI:
“Brian and Trew came across Dozer, he wasn’t carded. Trew grabbed an extra radio/cloned it and gave it the Dozer Operator, DOZP. The fire had been picking up all day, 6 ft. fl. Trew had Ball work with DOZP who didn’t know who he is working for, he had no supervisor, no division. DOZP said he was trying to be flexible with no plan.”
(all misspellings, bad grammar compliments of SAIR).
Looks as if DOZP had no radio. AND considering this operator hasn’t been interviewed, this is some of our only insight to his day. No supervisor, no division, no leadership. Another stellar example of Cordes’ leadership.
Sidenote: BRIHC and Cordes make reference to using a T1 Dozer with an angled blade. There are no resource orders for a T1 Dozer from Yavapai County. But in Ball’s pics of the Dozer, it sure looks like a T1 Dozer to me.
Again, I ask someone please show me where Hernandez is the DOZP on 6/30? Where is that documented? Or is it adding two and two together is where Justin and Hernandez come together? I’m not seeing it.
I am only going by what WTKTT is saying. Unless it is some where in BR notes. Good question…
FIRE+20 See where I posted, at the top, the photos of the two dozers.
I think the dozer in the resource order is the second dozer. Look at the photo and see if that looks to you like a Type 2 dozer. Cuz I don’t really know.
I think that’s the dozer in the Resource Order, and I don’t think the Hernandez dozer is listed ANYWHERE in the Resource Order, much less Hernandez.
Thanks for those pics…I am not an expert with dozers by any means. I see differences in them though.
Also in I-Dispatch Records:
“Denny to KM”
“Foulk: 1st Dozer that is on the fire. CAT Dozer Type 2 D78. 10618. Serial #: AGN01551 EQ#: 06562. 2nd is CAT Dozer. Coming from Verde. D68 Type 2. PAD# 9690 Serial# AAX00270 EXU# 03562.”
Then look at the Resource Orders, E-16, in the Resource Assigned column, DOZER-T2-AZ-YAO-#D03562 (2003 CAT D6R) (AZ-ADC)
The second Dozer Denny spoke of matches resource order E-16.
Do you have an approximate time of those screenshot pics of the dozer on the lowboy? You probably have it posted here somewhere, sorry. Looking at E-16, that Dozer was ordered at 0226 on 6/30, then assigned at 1843 on 6/30.
See what I wrote above (I think–it’s easy to get lost in these threads) about the dozer at the Youth Camp and why I don’t think the dozer came out with Ball.
But that doesn’t mean that, after the dozer skedaddled from the Youth Camp, he didn’t skedaddle all the way back over the cutover line, then back down Sesame to where the “lo-boy” (I guess I’ve learned a new term today) was parked. which, actually, wouldn’t have made all that much sense, otherwise.
If I didn’t have a reason to do that, I would skedaddled down Shrine Road with everybody else.
He wasn’t taking an Escape Route to a Safety Zone. He was trying to get the dozer back to it’s “lo-boy.” That had to have been for A REASON.
A lousy reason, as it turned out, but still A REASON.
And yeah, it’s looking to me that he ended up having to wait out the fire burning around him either in the dozer or the lo-boy.
Just in order to then be ordered out again and wind up with a power line getting tangled up with him because someone wants him to cut a road into the deployment site.
Not a good day for Hernandez.
And yes, somebody REALLY needs to interview him.
And now I’m thinking about how WTKTT wrote somewhere downstream:
“(NOTE: The sentence immediately following this in Ball’s Log has been totally REDACTED. ).”
I wonder if that next sentence had anything, maybe, to do with Hernandez and the dozer?
Lo-boy/Lowboy a big flatbed trailer that is low to the ground and big enough to haul a D8 Cat.
If he went back to the Lowboy and stayed with it he probably cleared a large area around it if he did not have time to load and get out.
Still some what confused as to what he did and what the picture reflects of a cat on a trailer/Lowboy???
What I just posted at the top:
“OK In order to help clear up a bunch of CONFUSION, I’m posting five photos of the two dozers that we’re talking about into Dropbox.
IMG_1881 and IMG_1883 are the two photos Ball took of the Dozer on the cutover line.
113 is the photo taken of the second dozer at the MiniMart.
1643-0512-Dozer and dozerin are the two photos I screensnapped of the second dozer being towed toward the west as it crosses the Air2Air video camera.
I think this second dozer is the Type 2 Dozer listed in the Resource Orders that FIRE+20 was asking about. And, no, I haven’t found ANY mention in the Resource Orders of the Dozer Hernandez, Ball, etc., were working with.
Here’s link to the pix, which are in a Folder called “2014-12-03 Dozers”:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7k9ldpvs8i9nzjp/AABSNTbM654nzGg0aYQ-BrLEa?dl=0
All of these photos have the original metada intact.”
No Marti, not everyone was surprised that the fire changed directions so quickly. At least old Sonny when i got to the top of the mountain and had left that stubborn but delightful being named Joy behind i had already felt the change in the wind. By the time i got back and got her going up the mountain and down the Congress side the wind was picking up already and in an opposite direction to where it had been. Fortunately i was able to cajole her with threats that i would send a copter back in for her if she did not keep moving– i even pointed out copters going overhead with bags which i toldb her you see they are already bringing out bodies, we got to move. And by God’s grace we barely beat that fire by 10 or 11 minutes ourselves or we would have been roasted. When JOY argued that she preferred a short cut as the firemen did, i am glad i won the arguement that time.
Sonny listening to others account it would appear that 11 minutes but not enough proper documents to state that because we have to state fact-based documented information and your statement comes from locals oral accounts so make sure even if you have had many beers right now to remember to state that.
OK. Not EVERYONE was surprised. YOU weren’t.
But the people who were managing the resources fighting the fire, including Gary Cordes (when he radio’d Tyson Esquibel about sending an Engine to Boulder Springs Ranch), were. And and and and……
I’m guessing Bravo 3, who predicted, AROUND NOON, that the fire was gonna reverse under the monsoon thunderstorm and head back UPHILL to Yarnell THAT AFTERNOON, wasn’t either, as they flew in to take over Air Attack right after the deployment.
But everybody else was seriously about 10 miles and at least 1 hour (if not more) in the dust, WAY behind that fire.
Reply to FIRE20+ post on December 2, 2014 at 4:35 pm
>> FIRE20+ said…
>>
>> Bob you say “The Families should work to make the
>> Deployment site a place for every one to come and view
>> including FF as a reminder to what happened that day
>> and a Memorial to the GM Crew.”
>>
>> How do you know they’re not?
Because ( some of them ) are NOT.
A small group of ‘widows’ of GM Hotshots are actively trying to make sure it DOESN’T happen.
When the official Arizona legislation establishing the ‘Granite Mountain Memorial Committee’ was just about to pass in the Arizona State Legislature… a group of (unnamed) ‘widows’ of some of the Granite Mountain Hotshots petitioned Rep. Karen Fann ( the Republican State Representative whose District includes the City of Prescott ) to add an actual ‘rider’ to the legislation that gave THEM the ‘first dibs’ to BUY the land… and lock it up so that only THEY could determine WHO is ever allowed to visit the actual deployment site.
Rep. Karen Fann did that… and has publicly said she thinks these ‘widows’ SHOULD purchase the land where the actual deployment site is located and do whatever THEY choose to do with it.
Rep. Karen Fann ( the sponsor of the actual GM Memorial legislation ) supports them 100 percent.
That ‘rider’ that Karen Fann added to the bill at the request of these (unnamed) ‘widows’ survived committee… but in the actual legislation passed it is now solely up to the newly formed ‘Granite Mountain Memorial Committee’ to decide whether the ‘widows’ should have ‘first dibs’ and be allowed to buy that land.
That decision is STILL pending… so if these (unnamed) small group of ‘widows’ have their way… there will BE no public memorial anywhere near the actual deployment site.
Amanda Marsh, Brendan McDonough and Darrell Willis are ALL now officially on the ‘Granite Mountain Memorial Committee Board of Directors’ that was established, by law, to determine who should be able to BUY the actual deployment site land… and when, where and how the official Memorial should be constructed.
It has not been stated anywhere publicly by Rep. Karen Fann WHO the ‘widows’ were/are that want to ‘buy up the land’ and ( if they so choose ) prevent anyone from ever visiting the deployment site… but since Amanda Marsh herself has been appointed to the actual Board along with Rep. Karen Fann… it is assumed that she is one of them.
** THE LONG STORY
On April 30, 2014, the Arizona State Legislature passed HB2624…
Arizona State Legislature
HOUSE BILL 2624
From the actual legislation ( Approved by AZ Senate and then
signed into law by AZ Governer Jan Brewer )
————————————————————————–
Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona:
Section 1. Title 41, chapter 3, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by adding article 1.4, to read:
ARTICLE 1.4. YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL
41-519. Yarnell Hill memorial
A. The Arizona state parks board shall establish the Yarnell Hill memorial state park subject to the following conditions:
1. The Yarnell Hill memorial site board recommends that the Arizona state parks board purchase the land for the memorial site.
2. The Arizona state parks board purchases the Yarnell Hill memorial site pursuant to title 37, chapter 2, article 3.
3. The Yarnell Hill memorial site board approves the design and construction of the memorial.
4. The Yarnell Hill memorial site board secures the necessary permission for individuals to visit the memorial.
etc…
Section C. The Yarnell Hill memorial site board shall:
1. Determine whether to establish a memorial dedicated to the members of the Granite Mountain hotshot crew who lost their lives fighting the Yarnell Hill fire at the location where the crew lost their lives. If the board determines that the site should be memorialized, the board shall establish the memorial and approve its design and construction.
2. Determine whether the Arizona state parks board or a private party should purchase the land for the memorial site.
3. Work with interested parties to design and construct the memorial.
4. Plan for and secure the necessary permissions for individuals to visit the memorial.
Section 3. Emergency
This act is an emergency measure that is necessary to preserve the public peace, health or safety and is operative immediately as provided by law.
——————————————————————–
In Part 1, Section ‘A’ establishes WHO is supposed to be on this ‘Granite Mountain Memorial Board’.
Item 6 says one of the Board Members ‘shall’ be…
6. A SURVIVING MEMBER OF THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOT CREW OR A RELATIVE OF A MEMBER OF THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOT CREW WHO LOST HIS LIFE FIGHTING THE YARNELL HILL FIRE, WHO IS APPOINTED BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
The Arizona Legislature’s ‘Speaker of the House’ appointed Brendan McDonough to fulfill this required postion on the Board.
The following article is where Rep. Karen Fann ( the actual sponsor of the legislation ) first publicly admitted that she supports the ‘widows’ and their desire to purchase/control the land 100 percent. Rep. Fann is now officially ON the ‘Committee’ that will decide if the ‘widows’ should be allowed to purchase the land.
From Arizona News Radio Online…
———————————————————————————–
House Tentatively O.K.s Yarnell HIll Fire Memorial
Posted on 3/3/2014 2:56:00 PM.
The House has given tentative approval to a bill securing the land where 19 Arizona firefighters died in the Yarnell Hill Fire. Representative Karen Fann’s bill authorizes the state to buy the site where the Granite Mountain Hotshots died battling last June’s rampant wildfire. A permanent memorial is planned for that spot with a price tag of $500,000 dollars.
Fann, noting that passing legislation is a prerequisite to the purchase of that land, says a group of Hotshot widows has also expressed interest in buying the site.
Fann told them, she’d love it if they succeeded in doing that.
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: Congresswoman Karen Fann is/was the bill’s prime sponsor.
She is a Republican whose District includes the City of Prescott.
UPDATE: September 7, 2014
Prescott Daily Courier
Yarnell memorial site board chosen
Group reviews park designs
Article by Joanna Dodder Nellans, published September 7, 2014
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=135864
From the Article…
—————————————————
The membership of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board has been finalized, and the board is kicking off its work by scheduling a meeting with the families of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots from Prescott who perished on the site during last year’s Yarnell Hill wildfire.
The state has tasked the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board with deciding whether to build anything at the site and if so, designing and constructing it with donations.
Legislation sponsored by Arizona Rep. Karen Fann of Prescott lays out the board membership requirements. The Senate and House leaders chose people who met those membership requirements.
The ad-hoc board also will decide whether the state or some of the hotshots’ families should buy the state trust lands where the hotshots died. The Legislature appropriated enough money to buy it, but some families have offered to buy it instead.
“It’s great to finally get this group together and get moving on this,” Fann said.
Fann said she wanted the board to start its work by meeting with the hotshots’ families, and a private meeting has been scheduled.
Board members are…
Amanda Marsh, widow of Granite Mountain Hotshots Superintendent Eric Marsh;
Brendan McDonough, sole survivor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots
Darrell Willis, Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Chief.
Arizona State Forester Scott Hunt;
Rep. Karen Fann and Sen. Steve Pierce of Prescott;
John Flynn of the Arizona Fire Districts Association, representing a non-profit that supports public safety;
Former Prescott fire chief Dan Fraijo, representing an association of public firefighters;
Glen Hopkinson representing someone with memorial design experience;
Prescott Mayor Marlin Kuykendall;
Arizona State Parks Director Bryan Martyn;
Yavapai County Board of Supervisors Chair Rowle Simmons and Lenora Bennett Nelson, owner of Bennett Oil Co. in Prescott, representing the county;
Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm;
Yarnell-Peeples Valley Chamber of Commerce President Chuck Tidey;
—————————————————
Thank you for posting this.
And, at this point, personally, my opinion is that if the nation’s wildland fire-fighters don’t give a damn about this, as is apparently the case. my humble opinion is, “Why should I??”
I’ve searched and searched and searched, and, frankly, I don’t see much interest in any of what we are conversing about anywhere.
Oh, and by the way:
State seeks dismissal of suit in Yarnell fire
Dennis Wagner, The Republic | azcentral.com 10:47 p.m. MST October 24, 201
“Attorneys for the state of Arizona are asking a federal judge to throw out the wrongful-death complaint filed by survivors of hotshots killed in last year’s Yarnell Hill Fire, claiming command decisions at the time were not “shocking” and the litigation is blocked by law.
A motion filed Friday by the Arizona Attorney General’s Office says the Division of Forestry and its fire commanders are immune, and state laws prohibit civil complaints for damages under the circumstances.
The lawsuit initially was filed in Maricopa County Superior Court by survivors of 12 of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who died in June 2013 when they were trapped and overcome by flames. The complaint, which was moved to the U.S. District Court in Phoenix a week ago, alleges that fire supervisors were so negligent they violated the hotshots’ rights.”
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/10/25/yarnell-fire-lawsuit-hotshots-survivors/17894343/
recap real fast: 1:03pm today I had a 13min 47 sec conversation with Sgt. Ashby—very kind and sincere and she stated she called on her own accord to apologize for yesterday. I get being in an authority role it has to be hard to have someone cut in and answer like me—get it—I mean raise your hand how many have to skim through the rambles—I explained after that call I do not need a follow-up from her superior or a written apologize—that call was sufficient. We both understand the division this fire has and the pressure— How can you please everyone…you can’t—I am very pleased by the way it was handled and I am fine…I did run into journalist Patti Jares that did my article long ago on the desert walker…neat to run into her…I have a lot to do but I had to not what are the chances of running into Deputy Brickner at 1:33:33pm at the FAMILY DOLLAR in Congress and we just saw him yesterday in Chino Valley at the McDonald’s—I have perimeter cameras everywhere and on top of it very observant of my surroundings. In my question to Sgt. Ashby she stated where it says no trespassing- stay out and I explained if you come in from Congress side/Cloudcroft area there is no posted no trespassing and the only we saw with OSHA is the fence itself where the men died so can you go to the flagpole and she stated she does not know that answer but I do by Paxon’s map you can travel the mountain top but not the deployment area.
After Joy’s comment I don’t need to say much. As she mentioned yesterday was a hard day for us–maybe we are getting closer to the truth and causing some trepidation.
I sometimes wonder what is the worry about going up to the fenced area where the men died. Joy and I have never hiked up there since it was fenced and restricted except with the two OSHA men she mentioned–they had been there before but wanted to time the descent for their investigation. They did cause the Forest Service to be fined i think 500,000 dollars, an indication that someone was doing something wrong. I can tell you that there are no signs up at the fence, or at least as far as we can see from about a half mile on the mountain top where it is entirely legal to hike providing you have a land pass. I would not have one except that Joy bought one for me or I would have been arrested some time ago I suppose. Well few people in Yarnell know that you have to have that pass or could be jailed and fined without it. What has this country come to, made me go look at the movie Dr. Zhivago and how authorities begin to take total control of the lives of people. But on this topic of the fence, first off it is in such an isolated place that who knows how many have been there? Unless they post a guard up there it is open land and isolated enough. And what restrictions do they mean? There would be no purpose going there unless you wanted to pay respect to the men. Joy has earned her right to go there as far as I can see–She and I respect those men and she has been their voice while they cry for the truth be be out. None of those restrictions are on the Mann Gulch Fire nor are they on the Storm King–but in both instances certain individuals were culpable.
Some here want a no blame situation and that will only be possible once all the facts are in–something many of these photos that Joy is finding and many that are yet to be delivered. Photos don’t lie so we hope there will be many more helping to bring clarity–some perhaps more clarity than is wanted in certain circles.
Bob Powers I do agree when it comes to not backing down for the truth in this thing. We need you here as the Fire Chief–well would have like to have seen you run this one–I am aware of one thing–this incident would have never occurred on your watch. I
i
Here we go. Let me begin that it is 10:30 am and we just left our good friend retired cop and after he heard what I am about to write he said I KNOW HOW COPS WORK..WHEN YOU ARE THE LAW YOU CAN GO AGAINST THE LAW…be very careful you two…if I see you in jail or get killed or just vanish we all will make sure to publicly announce and look for you both…You two knowing you like I have for a few years are the most genuine honest pure people and I will make sure if they ever arrest you to help get you out and have a band wagon of support from current and retired law enforcement. Keep the faith and keep doing the right thing.
here it goes:
Since Friday I had been just doing garlic, beet, kale, dark grapes, cinnamon, ginger, radish, sprouts, cucumber, green onion, jalapeño juice and to cleanse and fast for my blood labs for December 1st and I did limited hiking and yard activity. December 1st arrives to be a day of horse shit. Here I have jackets to later be given to Barb at the place in Yarnell. I had all kinds of things piled on me. The jeep was packed with Skeeter the white akita and so much and myself as Sonny was filling up gas. I waved to Sgt. Ashby as we went to gas up as we rolled on way E for gas at the Peeples Valley Mountainair gas and laundry and rv setup. All of a sudden as if I was not rolling down the passenger window soon enough Sgt. Ashby does not say “good morning Joy” like what folks do when they first come upon another. Instead at 7:30am December 1st, 2014 I get from her “ You are not allowed to take people to the site.” and I replied: “I don’t.” Sgt. Ashby replied: “A woman told me you spoke to her (as she emphasized the next few words with meaning) directly and you are taking others to the site and you even have a craigslist ad on it.” I replied: “Whoever told you that is speaking misinformation and I never said a thing to anyone directly or ever been to the site except with OSHA Brett Steurer and Bruce Hanna.” (side note; and stating here “legally” permitted) Sgt. Ashby stated “I don’t like your tone- you calling me a liar?” and I replied: “No, whoever told you gave misinformation- the only time I have been there is with OSHA investigation team Bruce Hanna and Brett Steurer. Sgt. Ashby walked away than was by window than away from it and stated “the sensitivity of it and that she is getting pressure” and I said “I know but some want details- the only problems I had the past month are Chief Ben Palm and Amanda Marsh.” Sgt. Ashby said “I did not say it was Amanda Marsh” (mind you in a tone like I am putting it in her mouth it is her but like I said my exact words were “the only problems I had the past month is Chief Ben Palm and Amanda Marsh” ) I replied “I do not care the source and who said it- it’s misinformation.” ( my body now does not feel angry at this stage but due to her intense tone and delivery words sad because all I have done is assist others for them to properly assess that weekend in a very public transparent fashion and with no food and just juice that stopped on Saturday night and just warm water on Sunday my body which I am a Cancer sensitive soul at times we all have seen rational and irrational from me but on this occasion with food and such it would not phase me but my eyes flooded with tears as the only thing in my head/thoughts are those fatherless kids and how is this lady behaving this way—maybe she is just trying to make a strong delivery point—but why the comment stating I am calling her a liar??? my eyes are flooded thinking of Debra and how she tries so damn hard as all of us to piece this together why her son had to die that day…my face began to be a heated red of sadness…my nose flooded quickly as well as my eyes with tears.) What does Sgt. A shby say but “Why you acting like this?” (Acting is not my cup of tea—very genuine and very hard for me to keep being others slanderous punching bag—even this week hearing from a long time friend of a lady who stated to me in private yet all know how transparent I have been that she wanted to not befriend her long time friend but when she looks how I am as she has been watching me she just could not calculate how her friend shares to her that I Joy beat up her friend and put a gun to her head and she said she could not get it. I replied I have heard from others the beating up one but never the gun to head one— that was a new one, too many locals in Congress would tell me and my husband told me to leave it alone as a lady aging wrong but glad her good friend told me and well her friend was not concerned for her friend in that delivery but the misinformation being put out and her concern to my reputation and I explained since the fire I have seen a lot of misinformation glazed hatred from ignorant folks or people who do not want that truth reached yet I keep it inside yet God will protect me. I am glad I had her long time friend’s support on again misinformation” Also I don’t dare include YCSO because this Summer as you all know when I came back from the trails from Grand Canyon/Utah/NV with Sonny on our defensible space education journey I told you of the kids next door who were on my perimeter cameras as well a video confession that YCSO got of the kids throwing 3 cartons of 18ct rotten eggs and sour milk on to my rubberized stucco and damaging it—instead I get the deputy and Sgt. Ashby advising me to let it go—I am ALWAYS letting go of the wrongs done to me—ALWAYS—why? I guess to save energy on bull shit especially with my odd health when Karen Patterson told us last Fall as we hiked out the Weavers and she was on one of those off road vehicles- fancy- with another did we see suicide hiker Mark Danielson and I never heard that name before nor ever met the guy yet I replied we would be on the lookout for bones since apparently he went amiss a few weeks after the fire and as you seen me here report many in town state that was Mark Danielson in the newly released video off Shrine as well as locals including a neighboring couple said they saw the fire community on his property while he was still around and about—back to talk on Ashby…got side tracked) Sgt Ashby said “Why you acting like this?” and I told her I am not suppose to have stress and I am on my way to do my blood labs and your tone I do not deserve based on misinformation. “ Why do I get these behaviors from others based on others horse shit and untruths. Sgt. Ashby stated her intensity is due to the sensitivity and I explained I have a map of the restricted areas from Paxon/Payne and as well call State Land for any updates/changes and we do not go to the site yet do travel to the Weaver Mountains mountain top. It is misinformation and written permission for private property and I do not deserve the tone when all I am doing is helping get clarity and help all —you can get a camera and see I don’t (OR if Dwight D’Evelyn did not do that harassing technique he did with Sonny and the media he/YCSO would have been a CC email as the feds/state/county officials/retired smokejumpers and firefighting communities, retired CIA, loved ones of the GMHS,OSHA, the public seeking details, authors, media, journalists, researchers, air quality and respiratory specialists, botanists, scientists, meteorologists, lawyers seeking details, very close people to the GMHS who don’t want to make it to some roster of checking in with YarnellChief Ben Palm when they have a melt down to go get their mountain top view of their heart and you know to see grown men cry and weep so deep as I have witnessed is something maybe the YCSO should SEE so that I don’t see any more talks like I saw and I do feel due to the “are you calling me a liar” tone on misinformation I am owed a written apology and verbal apology at this stage means zip because if ANYONE recalls Deputy Levin at the town meeting last year TOLD US THE LAWS on what is legal on making an arrest on NO TRESPASSING…so all the private land out there even though I have written permission for a lot of areas out there except Maughan Ranch who Don Glasgow will not grant such but does not matter not proper signs or fencing ALSO retired CIA/lawyer man told me strongly there is NO CASE on the state land restriction because again no State Land/YCSO bulletin board signs saying it is illegal (get your signs up YCSO stating it is illegal) just a sign going into Glen Ilah stating no access to site and that does not say you cannot go to site just says no access—he said I could hike anywhere yet I never have…yet he wanted me to feel confident at no time can the YCSO have a leg to stand on for arresting the hikers for being in the area. The only thing I said because I have never been in the system but I did get a feel of nepotism and cronies when Sonny had to deal with it and indeed if I got arrested I would have a lawyer outside the county who knew that there is town meeting memo that does confirm Deputy Levin’s statements on the no trespassing laws…anyways everything I do you all have to properly assess the fire even though I am now witnessing people are using the information to create division and hatred and slander.) At that point Sgt. Ashby began to walk away (mind you her next thing was not warmly felt but she said it) “I hope you have a nice day and all goes well today.” Sonny drove off and quickly pulled over so I could vomit blood as well soon after that sour ass dry heave due to fasting. They have no right by God for deception and filling in words or making a statement that I am calling her a liar. I won’t be swayed to AGREE and ENDORSE anyone seeking to not see more information be shown- really 19 men died and the SAIR did a public disservice to the firefighting community as well the public. I am a tax paying LAW ABIDING citizen ( how many out there did not even know about the state land permits before meeting me?) I immediately tried to call her superior and was talking to someone when the phone cut out in the area reaching Skull Valley. We did the bogus VA thing with Sonny and he can talk about his horse shit time there—We met Andrew Williams who did our defensible space who fought on the Yarnell Hill fire and wanted to clear up confusion as well as return to us our tools. (OH…cookie cutter lady in your 60’s aka undercover we did note you move the tabletop closer to ours…we did note everywhere we were from Chino to Prescott you were behind us and as well we did note YCSO lic plate G-342FJ #082107 at about 12:45 on us too…I observe well even though aka cookie cutter lovely church looking lady you were every spot near us yesterday and we do not care because we are transparent. Our visit was to be at Aroma’s Pizza in Chino Valley and that was were my red flag began because I noticed aka cookie cutter lady in that parking lot as we learned it was closed and informed Andrew to meet us at McDonald’s than you were there too and everywhere. The meeting with Andrew even had Yarnell deputy there—Deputy Brickner and at 12:10 I approached him to let it go viral that the hikers do not go to the site and its misinformation and I want formally file a complaint to begin the paper trail so I stop seeing the horse shit…he gave me directions where to go (so glad it was not suggested “hell” on a place to go..smiling…I like Brickner…he does not understand Sonny and I but again I think family/friends and including us we don’t understand except we are like what we say—an old married couple with the bickering and one another’s caregivers as I pass out and such and he has poor hearing. Okay our time with Andrew was from 11:52-12:41pm and good information. They were the first crew to arrive on 6-29-13. 6 of them went by helicopter ride to the Weaver Mountain top and slept over and when it went from type 4 to type 2 and the next morning three more were going up- the full crew were on REST and originally may have been the crew set for the GMHS that Sunday but they were now on REST and no night ops- there job was from July 1st-5th. They are not the Yuma crew with Willis. They ate at the Yarnell Diner and were not stationed at the Ranch House Restaurant. There was 2 Yuma prison crews there. I did not have a lot of questions but I did ask on the yellow water tender topic but he was stationed at the Yarnell Fire Department. I did ask if he eyewitness the bambi bucket never being used as he was in the parking lot stationed and he did confirm the bambi bucket was not used on Saturday. Okay so we went back to the VA to handle Sonny’s ekg after the xrays and blood tests. We went directly to YCSO to do compalint and the records man said they don’t do complaints yet they do “chain of command” and gave me 928-771-3260 and ask for Ltnt. Auvenshine so I was there and called at 2:11pm and left voice mail on wanting file complaint or discuss this to go viral to quit treating me like I did such actions on misinformation in the tone I heard. I called again at 2:51-2:56 explaining more and one more time right before delivering jackets to Barb at close of day this time requesting to get form to request the source so I can get them for slander- “enough”. We get a missed call at 2:08pm from a new number and I called it and it was Pete Andersen the retired fire chief and I asked him is he giving me good news or bad. He said just his new number. I requested prayer that I will accept the horse shit if it is of God’s will but if not—gotta stop because it’s getting OLD. I can see how people feel scared now…shit the tone I got which let me make it clear—we are the HIKERS—how come Sgt. Ashby never went up to Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) as they both pumped gas—why wait until he goes in to get coffee? Or why not address him when he returned but nope it was all given to me…nice…real nice….in my talk with Pete I told him how BLM Bruce Olsen gave me to Emergency Management Denny Foulk and Denny told me to fill out the FOIA and it would be awhile because he is understaffed and Marti Reed can post it was a superfast turn around even on a Holiday week…as I sent her photos. Denny should of told me that it was State Land that FOIA needed to be directed to with the names Scott Hunt and Russ Shumate for those are the names involved with grant information so when I have a few moments away from all this I will next do FOIA to them. Thank you Pete. I have to run…I have become THE CHAPTER in this one post. Keep you updated how the Ltnt. Will handle this—all I want is them to leave me alone and stop treating me like I did a wrong when I never did…
————————
Reply to TTWARE 11-30-14 9:28am. Leonard/Leroy; 2 separate accounts. When in library and I heard Leonard Hunter talking to couple who has second home on Manzanita— my ears listened to see if the name was “Matt” because Dr. Leroy Anderson at a prior meeting with retired government and firefighter folks. Dr. Leroy Anderson handed me a hot pink post it note “need to meet Matt on Manzanita” yet to further information offered on Matt.
On topic of radios- his direct answer that the radios was clear no misunderstanding and normal radio noise but no static preventing one to hear—clear as day— he sticks by what he said and I stated on here. He was not the only individual in area that heard it. He said it is facts and agree to post public his account yet is only willing to speak to Marti.
WTKTT 11/30/14 10:30am you question clarity in the box canyon. Joy A Collura spoke to her mother between 5:30-6:45am 6-30-13 by tracfone cellphone and verizon pay as you go phone.
Can any friend, loved ones of the gmhs confirm the conversations they had with the men in the box canyon- was communication okay? Mine was with my mother. We even joked about it because my phones suck in Congress and here in parts of Yarnell but on the Weavers that day just fine.
Only ones to “clearly” hear those five separate transmissions someone wrote—my reply is model creek area is not the only ones and if this reaches courts the lawyers need to reach me for additional names that want to remain private since they are people current in the system how they fight wildfires— people don’t mind sharing to give us “peace” not “piece” to any puzzle.
I love your trust and verify mode….that person is spot on and where I am at…I may be the messenger but I do not support all information shared to me. I strongly believe as I get information that people do just that—I called Leonard today to reconfirm all conversations and asked about the Yuma captain’s name and he replied he was busy fighting a fire but he does have 2 business cards that I named previously on John Dougherty’s page here.
Monday December 1st we have doctor appointments and my blood labs and focused there but maybe I can talk to Byron soon or the other to confirm with Prison Crew Leader Jake “Guad” Guadinana to see if he is the one in that area that Leonard Hunter is thinking of—maybe this week it can be narrowed down and find out of they heard the same radio communications. Just because they decline or say no does not mean a thing too because it can be they just did not hear it. I know it is possible because I had a severe trauma long ago and in it one lady to this day has to live with a memory seeing all she did but never came forward and others were out and near but its possible they did not hear or see anything.
11030014 11:18am Good thought, Bob Powers. My personal thought when Leonard told me—ask Leonard all who was there and confirm with them too. If all is confirmed that would mean did Willis say his “last communications” not knowing but knowingly because Leonard said it was stated aloud again what was heard—Public question to Willis; did you say all you did leaving any information out in any interviews or accounts knowingly or unknowingly? You can answer here or privately to me. Prefer here. Leonard stated Willis was 30 yards from truck.
Let’s not forget homeowners and firefighters’ accounts who SAW the drivers of GMHS and other vehicles coming out of Glen Ilah, Shrine area, and Ranch House Restaurant area—lawyers need to speak to homeowners because it’s important the faces on the drivers; the one homeowner said their eyeballs were bigger than their uh-hum I won’t say the impolite word that males have…
11/30/14 6:30am Calvin- 21 videos never left our thoughts- yes- need to keep it fresh to this chapter which it use to be a chapter lasted a few months or so yet if omit a portion of unneeded comments here…maybe by Christmas a new chapter will start-
If anyone has 4T 3 y.o. girl clothes or toy please mail to: Rayna (928) 499-2850 (if you need more details) 3161 Willow Creek Rd #127 Prescott Arizona 86301. I am posting that for any Christmas Kid Drive that Firefighter/Police organizations do…I never met Rayna or any of the family but I had my husband deliver her a Model Marissa Barbie and my family and friends are getting box together as well —you all do realize Russ Reason was not the only local at the Ranch HouseRestaurant but some scared to share or get involved…Noone wants anyone to be blamed for the fire is the general thought locally. SIDE NOTE by WWTKTT 11/30/13 3:43pm AGREE. Where is a lot of the items?
My own self hopes more information surfaces from first on the scene, aerial, YCSO and the firefighters that day especially the higher ups, Donut and Frisby…
I also question why Calvin named Fred too in a post? Can you share are you and EN speaking in private? Noone knew the last name of Fred before EN spoke of it.
How many locals see JD’s page and GMHS loved ones—I am sure praying for “peace” vs “suppression the truth” by wasted comments on who is this or that…Let’s “dissolve” the hatred and communicate and have desires to reconcile that this is the package (ALL US HERE); no exchanges/no returns. Let’s build foundations and bridges vs walking on egg shells because one person feels offended by many as stated through the chapters, our texts, our emails, and phone calls. We are just trying to live and do the right thing for the 19 and all affected. Again- just let’s cancel the subscription like I did— to what? Someone’s issues on here. I sat 1.5 hours typing an apology letter to EN to post on JD’s and the library system shut pc off in middle writing it all so as Willis used God in his accounts so maybe the pc erasing my apology which I now just publicly state simple; I am sorry for not reading Peter 3:8-9 or Hebrews 12:14 or just getting into the Word vs publicly expressing my frustrations. Maybe the pc shutting down was God’s way of saying live and let live like Sonny does versus having to have detailed message of apology. Now yes, Marti is right- some parts I’ve been shown agony by locals and had I stayed in Congress and just leave Yarnell be… I today would be held on a pedestal simply as the desert walker who has come far in her health journey. It’s not easy. It is not easy when misinformation about me is viral and fed in such a small community but thankful it is just select ones. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND Annie telling locals she had me investigated. Makes no sense and just today she told me “Do not walk your dog down this street ever again” and I thought “love thy neighbor, Joy” as a tiny voice says “she ain’t your neighbor Joy- she is Sonny’s” and I want to say “sticks and stones may break my bones but your words will never drive me to be medicated” and than I saw I need to be about resolution and not to think to increase conflict. EN this past week just had to reach me on a wrong ass week because I am silly shit locally so unneeded that indeed I get finding the TRUTH is not easy! Yet who wants easy…easy is bloody boring. I do not have to agree and endorse on here even with locals’ accounts that I share on here—my part in this is get the information out to you all to properly assess it. When I get information post it or email it and at times skim Jd’s page for questions to answer. If I went to Congress and went on with my loving leave it to beaver ways than call me—label me—a fancy hotel yet inside closed for renovation because my GRAND OPENING will be the day the TRUTH is revealed and I will continue to assist to help make that happen. Last read post on JD’s page was 11/30 6:15pm. Since day one we gave all who wanted the information and out of all en/hn even though facts are they both have been warm, kind and generous to us all and me they are still the only ones in ALL we met “if I find something out I’ll let you know and you do the same Sonny and Joy. Noone is going to get exclusives from the hikers. How God leads it to us— you will see it even if ladies move forward continue to know things yet never share it to hikers like originally stated nor sources—instead led to hear but its what you both wanted— you said not to share to you both if you cant share elsewhere— RIGHT! This is a collaboration of us all not exclusives to just one. Marti 11/29 5:03pm “If Leonard Hunter is some version of a “local” he could have been..” Leonard Hunter we mentioned long ago on here. He is a retired Yarnell firefighter and he is the one who shot himself in the heart and lives to tell about it…yes, scared is defined different to different folks. To each person their definition means from fear of fbi to fear of local politics or fear their photos will be gps and geocoded to where they live and who they are when they were willing to help everyone see additional photos but not planned to see where they live because locals can now see who it is anonymous and due to town politics now causes friction here. You all taking homeowners and publicly sharing exact location— it will deter future hopes from sharing if they see such on here. But gor Leonard it it small town politics. He was willing to talk but today he said he will not take any calls on it. I told him Marti does have his contact information
but he is not open to talk—nervous of small town horse shit—so say nothing than cant be pulled into rumors or dismay—he finds himself an idealist and I am a realist—and I told him he is real piece of work to one week want to help than nervously pull back and I explained he needs to keep the faith and in hopes others share from Sickles/Model Creek so the TRUTH can be reached. Marti- please do not give out Leonard’s number upon his call today and his request. He did state that was a great idea of yours—sending that certain item may help him open up. Smiles. My google drive is open publicly and some have had on there to ask for permission yet now there is more than Marti and MacLean who had to ask—I have a good question. If someone has photos but want to share but won’t because experts gps it and also the photos tells a deeper story— who would be willing to pay for photos? I have heard that question and have no idea how to answer it—any of you?
WTTKTT 11/29 10:31am I did not say Helms is writing book yet hell yes I said if they wrote a book I’d buy it—indeed.
Sonny wants Bob Powers to know please leave idiots alone. They have their right to their opinions- this is America. Please no more attacks even if they attack you or anyone. Sonny said he lost a son at age 29. It is a good reason not to bother people that do not have a clue.
Thanks Sonny Good Advice
But the COP in me has a hard time with IDOTS
I am hard headed and have said they have a right to there opinions.
Some times you just have to state the facts if they sound like Attacks
I have never backed away from a challenge in my life.
That’s who I am……………..
JOY
Is Sargent Ashby City or County?
Written access by private property owners and signed is legal even if posted.
State lands are public owned as well as BLM the only access they can deny you
is the Fenced in portion where the Crew deployed.
Always Carrie your written access and sighed copy with you.
Is the road to the Helms Ranch Public?
Also the Officer has no personnel information to say he saw you at the Site.
Which he needs to enforce a Misdemeanor charge of trespass.
If people are being allowed on the private land with written permission then the officer has no probable cause to follow-up with a trespass citation it would be thrown out of court……..
JOY
Is Sargent Ashby City or County? COUNTY —SHERIFF—SERGEANT
Written access by private property owners and signed is legal YES AND THE PRIVATE OWNER IS A LAWYER AND THEY HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH US even if posted.
State lands are public owned as well as BLM the only access they can deny you
is the Fenced in portion where the Crew deployed. WHAT ABOUT THE FLAG AREA THEN THAT IS NOT FENCED?
Always Carrie your written access and sighed copy with you.ALWAYS- YOU BET AND SONNY’S I DO INDEED
Is the road to the Helms Ranch Public? WHAT ROAD…THEIR DRIVEWAY…NO WAY. THEY ARE GATED AND THEY HAVE A NO ACCESS ON THE LEGAL STREET TO HELMS YET YOU CAN TAKE GOING DOWN THE YARNELL HILL THE WHITE ELEPHANT IS YOUR WAY UP LEGALLY OR PARK ON DATE CREEK AND GET PERMISSION FROM PRIVATE LAND OWNERS AND GO STRAIGHT THAT WAY OR SINCE NOT FENCED WITH PROPER SIGNS YOU CAN TAKE ANY OF THE HOMEOWNERS IN THAT CANDIE CANE LANE AREA AND GET THEIR PERMISSION OR LIKE WE DO WE GO ACROSS SKIMMING THE FENCE OF MCCRARY AND BOB NUTH RIGHT INTO LEGAL NOT RESTRICTED STATE LAND AREA LEFT OF THE HELMS…HIKE UP…AND GO TO THE MOUNTAIN TOP TO SEE IT ALL
Also the Officer has no personnel information to say he saw you at the Site.I HAVE NEVER BEEN EXCEPT WITH OSHA SO HER TONE AND ME CALLING HER A LIAR COMMENT WAS NOT COOL.
Which he needs to enforce a Misdemeanor charge of trespass.
If people are being allowed on the private land with written permission then the officer has no probable cause to follow-up with a trespass citation it would be thrown out of court……..EXACTLY AND SGT ASHBY IS A FEMALE NOT MALE. I ALWAYS HAVE ENJOYED HER BUT YESTERDAY DESERVES AN APOLOGY—WRITTEN. SO I CAN READ IT OVER AND OVER…GET IT THROUGH MY THICK SKULL THAT SHE MEANT IT.
File a written complaint to the Sherriff. .
ok try again—reply to bob—they stated no written complaints—they use “chain of command”—and I support it after I saw the fast reply and I am pleased—
Good what ever works. Things in writing are not easy to ignore
or deny.
I understand that but I also understand the many comments YCSO has to endure so I can see the jump the gun behavior on it and like I said I like the YCSO —just a bad behavior moment was all so need to have a record over it—she was very sincere. I like that chain of command because it gives it a chance to be worked out and I do like remedies and resolution and talk through things yet it has to match where both sides have the ample time to work through it all is—
11:15am I received email that I am awaiting a phone message from Dwight DEvelyn and I spoke to him a lil’ over 2 minutes and I shared this site to him for my full testimony statement in regards to Sgt. Ashby and my pure disappointment in how they have treated me and awaiting my written apology. he quickly emailed the proper information in regards to an email about emergency notification that Anthony sent out and the man was friendly and indeed calm warm and enjoyable. I felt he spoke well.
Joy said
I also question why Calvin named Fred too in a post? Can you share are you and EN speaking in private? Noone knew the last name of Fred before EN spoke of it.
1. I only asked a question after being accused of being another person. What would you do?
2. I will admit to having an email exchange with E, hell you sent her full name, and email address to me accidentally, or I would have not known who she was, until later in the year 2013. Do not crucify me for that, please
3. As to your third point. ” Noone knew the last name of Fred before EN spoke of it.”
What is your point, actually? No one knew the name Fred with of without his last name before it was exposed./alleged. I do not know if Fred Schoeffler is rts? Do you? Does it matter? I think it does, and here is why. If rts is Fred (if and only if), the allegations that are being made against him (clear creek fire) are quite astounding, and would seemingly make him a bit ashamed of speaking of the GMH the way he does. or is it sort of a “no blood no foul situation” in this overall scheme of things. Also. You claim that you are looking for complete transparency. Right? RTS is part of this story. He is the one who has spear headed the talk of recklessness and all concerning GMH, espescially Eric Marsh. If it is true that he is Fred Schoeffler, and has a history (look at yarnellhillfireblog) of less than safe practices, himself. I think it is important to note. As I have tried to be open to all sides of the information available.
Joy said Sonny said……. Sonny wants Bob Powers to know please leave idiots alone.
Sonny, I do not care what you think about me. Or you either Joy!
Bob.
I sent you an email? did you get it? can you please advise the readers at IM? Thank you
Calvin/Elizabeth
So if you believe Elizabeth’s BLOG yarnellhillfireblog.com and it dose not allow any rebuttal to her ranting statements because she clears who can post and evidently no one dose. Most of the Blog is to specifically attack RTS to discredit him with out actual proof. To clame several on here are RTS. You use that as fact then you do not belong here any way.
No E-mail yet as to who you are??????
Bob.
Her is a fact for you.
P11 Blue ridge hotshots report
Structure Group 1 assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to SW of Yarnell
This is a blue ridge hotshot (possibly Cory Ball) stating that he was indeed ordered to look to build line with one other (possibly Justin Hernandez.) This line on page ii of the report comes just three lines below the 1600 time entry. There is no further time entries before the sentence/ fact above.
So you are saying you got my email? I feel no need to describe myself to you in that email. I only want to acknowledge that you are wrong. And it seems that you have a very hard time with that.
Thanks
No what you sent could have come from any one. Any one can create E-Mails with any name seen it before. So if your not Elizabeth Prove it
No hard time with what???? That you call RTS a FUCKING Liar, Quote another BLOGS statements without knowing the facts. or you are ELIZABETH and do not care………
You do not acknowledge the facts that the BLOG you refer to is one sided You chastise JOY and Sonny and State unsubstantiated facts about RTS.
At this point I really do not care who you are you have shown your true colors and you can be who ever you want.
What is SW of Yarnell. Where the Cat Hauler was parked they went back and loaded the cat and left the area, ..Also noted there was to much rock to build Cat line to the SW out of Yarnell or Glen Isla.
The Fire was moving to fast to scout any thing they loaded the cat and left the area. NO SCOUTING EVER DONE—–Do to increased Fire Activity.
You called me out this morning and then you expect respect from me
You start this chapter calling people Liar’s and then wonder why I think you are Elizabeth?
If you are not Elizabeth then quit supporting the Info on her Blog which accuses 4 or 5 people on here of being RTS.
If you don’t have the facts don’t believe the story no one here has believed any thing on her Blog.
Bob said….What is SW of Yarnell. Where the Cat Hauler was parked they went back and loaded the cat and left the area, ..Also noted there was to much rock to build Cat line to the SW out of Yarnell or Glen Isla.
The Fire was moving to fast to scout any thing they loaded the cat and left the area. NO SCOUTING EVER DONE—–Do to increased Fire Activity.
Cory Ball most certainly re entered Glen Isla on a ATV, presumably to scout as requested by Cordes. He has pictures in the BR photo folder to prove it.
There is absolutely no written documentation or photographic evidence that supports your claim that the dozer was loaded up and moved. Their is direct evidence that Hernandez was out of contact (missing?) even after they found GMIHC and were still actively looking for Hernandez. There is also an account of the dozer being stuck in some power lines later that night (around 9 I think). WTK opined that the dozer could have got stuck trying to bulldoze the downed power lines, but I personally do not believe that.
Again Bob, your off the mark with your comments..
If your talking scouting after 1530 then there was definitely to much fire activity around Glen Isla.
I read in the notes the cat went back to the lowboy loaded and moved the lowboy as it was parked out of Glen Isla there are no notes about a scouting for a cat line after 1530.
We discussed that quite a bit this summer so I can not tell you
the location of that info.
After the LowBoy was moved the Cat may have well got reassigned Did not follow that.
I will say again there were to many rocks for a cat to work north of Glen Isla. The chances of getting stuck with the Fire running at 1530 to 1630 would have been unsafe for a cat and operator I believe the scouting determined that and they Ball and the Cat operator did not as indicated start any line construction and moved out of the parking area.
I think I am right on but you can disagree, but there is no evidence that they attempted to build line north of Glen Isla or that they scouted that very far at again 1530.
And there is a statement in the record that the Lowboy was parked north of Glen Isla I can not pin point that statement. but we did cover it this summer.
Bob said….I read in the notes the cat went back to the lowboy loaded and moved the lowboy as it was parked out of Glen Isla there are no notes about a scouting for a cat line after 1530.
Please provide where you read that ” the cat went back to the lowboy loaded and moved the lowboy as it was parked out of Glen Isla”
I really do not think I ever read that, must have missed it.
Bob said….. there are no notes about a scouting for a cat line after 1530.
Bob,
p11 from BR reports says….Structure Group 1 assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to SW of Yarnell….
I agree there is no time associated with this entry, but it comes three lines after a 1600 timestamp
As I said I can not remember where the notes on the cat were only that the Lowboy was near Glen Isla and the cat and operator went to get it.
I am willing to admit I am not WTKTT when it comes to remembering the location of statements.
So I can not tell you where its at. Just that it was discussed earlier this year.
I see WTKTT gave us the info on the Scout mission at the top.
Bob said…. To clame several on here are RTS. You use that as fact then you do not belong here any way.
1. I never claimed rts was anyone, I only asked questions? I definitely never said rts had more than one username. What is wrong with your memory?
2. That sentence does not make sense, but only myself or Mr Dougherty can make that decision.. I do respect your opinion/ assessment of me. But I really don’t care what you think.
i don’t think i mentioned any particular person–so don’t take it personally.
One thing, i have not read your accounts except this one Joy pointed out. You can evaluate your own station. Nothing personal on my references–if you are a firefighter you are ahead of me on that score. Common sense is a plus when i have it, glad i did on the day of the fire. Joy had the same idea– those fellows did on that fatal day– but her reasons i believe were different. She saw a short cut and i saw danger. Glad i won out over her. As far as the GMHS it is still in the air for their decision–perhaps the whole story willl never be revealed–Joy and i do think it will. Sorry did not mean to demean anyone there and to be qualified as an idiot you need a 70 iq or less.
Oh, everything is just peachy, Tex. I understand now, you just had to much to drink and were PLASTERED.
Thanks for clearing that up Joy
Oh, Calvin, I laughed right out loud at your post. Thank you for providing a light moment. 🙂
And my impression, Calvin, is that everyone who is paying attention and has a clue knows that you and I are not the same people. (A big difference between us, for example, is that you are more tolerant of Fred Schoeffler aka Robert the Second presumably aka SR, Fire20+, mike, TTWARE, etc. than I have historically been.)
No worries. It is the least I can do
Just my attempt at humor.
And seriously Joy and Tex, no offense taken from either of you.
There will be days like this.
Well I was trying to get back to civil but that’s over.
Not much more I can add to the above conversation.
Elizabeth,
I said I was done with you, and I am, BUT since you are STILL publicly repeating FALSE allegations about me, I’ll say it one more time:
YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT!!!
What’s interesting about your accusations about me, is that originally you accused me of being WTKTT, and now your are accusing me of being RTS. Maybe soon, this will all come full circle and you will accuse me of being me.
All of this still fits right into my ULTERIOR MOTIVES theory. Does everyone else notice how this discussion gets majorly side-tracked with this BS on a regular basis.
Ulterior motives. I just can’t get that thought out of my head.
Yaaap
I answered this all in detail for a long time and Sonny wanted his legion taco and walked away to get his food and when I can back Sonny was communicating with the fbi and erased all I wrote to Calvin and not in mood to rewrite it all—but try…
reply to calvin says December 2, 2014 at 12:39 pm
number one question I would tell people I am my full name and I would state my position of why I am on this page for discussion and my prior history is I am the desert walker/ overweight housewife and I would hike from Congress to Wickenburg Filberto’ and back and jot my journey on my hiking page and on 6-30-13 I would not have been on the Weavers and would of been in Montana but due to my brain tumors I ended up on the trails here and good thing because us being on that hill allowed people who usually stay in Stanton and stayed up there on the Yarnell side of the Weavers to be made aware of the fire due to us because the boulders hid it and that you can ask Gordi too because his place was the same…
number two question you had, I am not at home to properly answer to see history emails- yet never was meant as a harmful comment. I like EN and again sorry I just cannot carry on a conversation with her…I do not understand her. I am not around people.
#3 I just feel confused on the Fred topic so I was looking for where you mentioned Fred prior and you really have amazing questions and so that is when I felt you must of spoke to her private was all—it’s fine with me.
When you commented “You claim that you are looking for complete transparency.”
That is the part about Elizabeth I just do not understand.
oh…and about this area:
Joy said Sonny said……. Sonny wants Bob Powers to know please leave idiots alone.
Sonny was plastered and I was not going to write it but anyone who knows him…you want to avoid bs moment…listen to this cowboy and just do it and when he saw it he said JOY but you see I typed as I go and when I hit mifi I copy/paste and posted.
I am way okay with everyone here. I just come here and post ramblings. You can read it or skim it or never read it—it’s okay. I just want to keep getting information for the GMHS loved ones…that’s all…
Joy said:
“Instead at 7:30am December 1st, 2014 I get from her “ You are not allowed to take people to the site.” and I replied: “I don’t.” Sgt. Ashby replied: “A woman told me you spoke to her (as she emphasized the next few words with meaning) directly and you are taking others to the site and you even have a craigslist ad on it.” I replied: “Whoever told you that is speaking misinformation and I never said a thing to anyone directly or ever been to the site except with OSHA Brett Steurer and Bruce Hanna.” (side note; and stating here “legally” permitted) Sgt. Ashby stated “I don’t like your tone- you calling me a liar?” and I replied: “No, whoever told you gave misinformation- the only time I have been there is with OSHA investigation team Bruce Hanna and Brett Steurer. Sgt. Ashby walked away than was by window than away from it and stated “the sensitivity of it and that she is getting pressure” ”
After reading your entire post it looks like the short story is the Sgt Ashby was pissed about the Craigslist ad and advertising to take people on the hike? Yes? And this was upsetting to people, particularly family members? Can you understand why this would make them feel this way–strangers advertising on a website to hike other strangers to view where their loved ones died? It’s really one more thing they shouldn’t have to think about. Are you getting paid from any Craigslist clients? If those people can’t figure out how to get around on the State lands themselves then maybe they shouldn’t be there. But I suppose when professional investigators are calling on ordinary hikers to guide them through a fatality site–its fitting!
Fire20+
This is not to correct you but to give you information.
One of the greatest things of my life was to see the Memorial of the Rattle Snake Fire
with the crosses and rock face with the pictures of those that died a place to sit and look at the mountain with the crosses and a hiking trail to each cross. They waited way to long to put that Memorial in. The Families should work to make the Deployment site a place for every one to come and view including FF as a reminder to what happened that day and a Memorial to the GM Crew.
The Families I would think would be proud to have people recognizing the crew
at the site where they perished. It is to bad that it is so inaccessible.
I have to say I totally agree with what Mr. Powers is saying here.
The WHY they died will probably be debated for decades… but the WHERE they died is fully known and always will be.
That spot will ALWAYS be the place where people will feel the need to pay their respects… now and into the future.
If they do NOT decide to build a publicly available, appropriate memorial park as close as possible to the ACTUAL deployment site… then the consternating about WHO is allowed to visit that exact spot will never go away.
If any of the family members believe that ACTUAL location should always be ‘off limits’ to anyone but them… they are not in touch with either history or reality.
There will ALWAYS be people ( other than them ) that feel the need to pay their respects at that exact location… and some will even continue to try and circumvent whatever ‘security measures’ are put in place to do just that.
The entire nation ( indeed, the entire world ) was asked to publicly mourn the loss of these brave men.
To then turn around and say the very place where that same ‘nation’ ( and world ) would most like to also (someday) pay their continuing respects is ‘off limits’ would not only be a fool’s errand… it’s ludicrous.
Just a add on.
The Mendocino Hot Shots and other fire crews go to the mountain where the crosses are every year during training and go over and ask questions about the Fire and what should have been done and why. It is a great place for a training tool. When I went there I felt at peace with the location and in the middle of the crosses 2 of my children grown and never knew their Grand Father left mementoes tied to his CROSS.
One Large cross that has been there for some time has many memento’s tied to it, It is quite a rewarding feeling.
Thanks fellas, I’ve been to too MANY wild land firefighter memorials. I went to the 1910 Memorial Trail, and that was only completed approximately 5 years ago–and it’s beautiful! It’s unfortunate that there isn’t a Memorial Hike to the YHF site–yet. My point with Joy is let things take it’s course and why fight it? Go viral against a law enforcement officer because the Sgt. was being compassionate? Not cool.
Bob you say “The Families should work to make the Deployment site a place for every one to come and view including FF as a reminder to what happened that day and a Memorial to the GM Crew.”
How do you know they’re not?
Good point I do Not Know, but the statements I am reading from Joy seem to indicate some do not want people there, thus my statement.
It would be a great way to help the grieving process. Working as a community to create a Memorial I truly hope that happens.
The actual site is always the best place at least I think so.
Reply to FIRE20+ post on December 2, 2014 at 4:35 pm
>> FIRE20+ said…
>>
>> Bob you say “The Families should work to make the
>> Deployment site a place for every one to come and view
>> including FF as a reminder to what happened that day
>> and a Memorial to the GM Crew.”
>>
>> How do you know they’re not?
Because ( some of them ) are NOT.
A small group of ‘widows’ of GM Hotshots have ALWAYS been actively trying to make sure it DOESN’T happen.
When the official Arizona legislation establishing the ‘Granite Mountain Memorial Committee’ was just about to pass in the Arizona State Legislature… a group of (unnamed) ‘widows’ of some of the Granite Mountain Hotshots petitioned Rep. Karen Fann ( the Republican State Representative whose District includes the City of Prescott ) to add an actual ‘rider’ to the legislation that gave THEM the ‘first dibs’ to BUY the land… and lock it up so that only THEY could determine WHO is ever allowed to visit the actual deployment site.
Rep. Karen Fann did that… and has publicly said she thinks these ‘widows’ SHOULD purchase the land where the actual deployment site is located and do whatever THEY choose to do with it.
See a longer ‘parent comment’ about this just posted up above that has more detail in it.
The FINAL legislation has left it up to the ‘Granite Mountain Memorial Committee’ to decide if the widows should have ‘first dibs’ on purchasing the land.
Amanda Marsh is now officially ON that ‘Committee’ that is going to make that decision.
So are Brendan McDonough, Darrell Willis, and the head AZ State Forester Scott Hunt.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 2, 2014 at 5:39 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Good point I do Not Know
Yes, you do. This was all covered some chapters back when it was learned that a (small) group of GM Hotshot ‘widows’ has always been wanting ‘first dibs’ on PURCHASING the land so that THEY can decide WHO ever gets to visit there.
See a new parent comment above that ‘tells the story’ ( once again ) of Arizona legislation bill HB2624… and how it has ‘officially’ established an ‘option’ for this small group of widows to ( possibly ) purchase the land and ‘lock it up’.
I do remember that discussion just not the widow’s purchase bill that was passed.
and I knew there was a committee for the Memorial.
must have missed the rest. I thought the main problem was access??
OK the Sept 7 info is what I missed only remember McDonough being appointed to the Committee.
But not much else
Thanks for the full info WTKTT.
Yes. Until this ‘GM Memorial Committee’ makes a lot of important decisions…. the site is still considered ‘Holy Ground’ and it is going to be treated that way.
The Committee has TWO YEARS to basically get all its work done.
The FIRST thing this committee ( which now has Amanda Marsh, Brendan McDonough AND Darrell Willis officially on it ) has to decide is whether this small group of ‘widows’ who want to have complete control over the site will be allowed to purchase the land.
That can’t take TWO years because of all the other things the committee has to do in that timeframe.
So we actually should learn pretty soon whether this small group of (unnamed) ‘widows’ is going to get their way, or not.
But UNTIL that happens ( and, indeed, probably for the next two years )… ‘ACCESS to the site’ WILL be a huge deal… and the source of continuing consternation.
My point with Joy is let things take it’s course and why fight it? Go viral against a law enforcement officer because the Sgt. was being compassionate? Not cool.
reply from joy: the not cool part is the YFD and YCSO bullying me with this threat of being arrested BASED ON SLANDER…you get it? and on the suggestion of retired police enforcement…make it viral…make it public…because they are everywhere we are…do you get that? If I don’t they can keep playing their games and it has to STOP! I should not have to STOP taking a loved one of the GMHS just because they do not want to be on Chief Ben Palm’s roster of visitors…you don’t get it…indeed…you don’t.
everyone gets the same from us—mountaintop view
NOT at the site.
See the thing is, you don’t have a clue what I get or what I don’t get having to do with YHF or hiking the site. I merely was curious about the CL ad Sgt. Ashby mentioned to you.
reply to FIRE20+ says December 2, 2014 at 2:50 pm
The fact is there has never been a craigslist ad of such kind nor any female who filed a report public. Sgt. Ashby stated this was a conversation with a female and no public record of it. The fact is no craigslist ad yet the ad still remains up if anyone wants to see —it was to ask for defensible space assistance—The source gave the sgt. misinformation and it is called slander.
again I just accidentally posted as sonny because he was last on it when replied to fire20+
to answer you no we do not accept any funds in finding clarity or the hikes or all our efforts.
to reply to this:
But I suppose when professional investigators are calling on ordinary hikers to guide them through a fatality site–its fitting!
Exactly it is sad when the people are turned down by officials including fire chiefs and ycso like dr ted putnam…yeah I can see why we were asked by osha—we may be ordinary hikers yet we also were at the fire line and were eye-wintess and that is a huge ass thing…many photos show that story…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 2, 2014 at 10:30 am
>> Joy said…
>>
>> Only ones to “clearly” hear those five separate transmissions
>> someone wrote—my reply is model creek area is not the
>> only ones and if this reaches courts the lawyers need to
>> reach me for additional names that want to remain private
>> since they are people current in the system how they fight
>> wildfires— people don’t mind sharing to give us “peace”
>> not “piece” to any puzzle.
Thank you, Joy.
Somewhere down below is that discussion about WHO might have heard these FIVE separate transmissions from Granite Mountain ( and under what circumstances ) that haven’t been reported publicly yet.
One of the ‘theories’ why these transmissions might not have ever been reported before is that they may have been coming over the Granite Mountain (private) intra-crew frequency… which only a few select people had… and was only programmed into some select vehicles that came from Prescott ( like Darrell Willis’ truck radio and the FOUR Granite Mountain vehicles, and Brendan McDonough’s own handheld radio, etc. ).
If anyone actually heard these transmissions who did NOT have access to the Granite Mountain private intra-crew frequency, then that means that theory must be wrong.
I’m not asking you to reveal ANY sources… but is it possible for you to say whether it would have been basically IMPOSSIBLE for any ONE of these other people saying they heard these same transmissions to have heard them over the GM private intra-crew frequency?
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> Leonard stated Willis was 30 yards from truck.
That would explain why someone might have been trying to make sure Willis knew about these FIVE separate transmissions.
They may have come (only) over the radio in Willis’ truck and he was (apparently) ‘away’ from the truck when they happened so someone just wanted to make sure he HAD heard them.
30 yards is 90 feet… and between the WIND and FIRE noise up on Model Creek Road at that time… that’s a LONG way to be hearing radio transmissions on a truck radio.
If Willis was that far from his truck radio then it is more than likely he did NOT hear what was coming over that truck radio.
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> I love your trust and verify mode….that person is spot on
>> and where I am at…I may be the messenger but I do not
>> support all information shared to me.
Sometimes its a very hard concept for people to understand… that you really are not DOUBTING what they say but you still reserve the right to VERIFY it ( if possible ).
Nothing personal involved.
It’s just always a good way to handle information coming anyone’s way.
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> SIDE NOTE by WWTKTT 11/30/13 3:43pm
>> AGREE. Where is a lot of the items?
Just for reference… the ‘SIDE NOTE’ Joy is referring to is as follows…
On November 30, 2014 at 3:43 pm, WTKTT said…
SIDENOTE: I’d still love to know what happened to Robert Caldwell’s GPS unit.
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> WTTKTT 11/29 10:31am I did not say Helms is writing book
>> yet hell yes I said if they wrote a book I’d buy it—indeed.
My apologies for that, Joy. I was mis-remembering exactly what you said there. I wish they would, though ( write a book ). It would be very helpful as part of the ultimate ‘story’ of that fateful weekend which is now part of history itself.
Just an observation here… Looks like things are gettting a bit silly on here
People are now putting things in their “signature lines” things like…
“Don’t disagree with Bob Powers…” and “Don’t tell Elizabeth anything…”
Childish in my opinion, time for some people to walk away from teh keyboard for a self imposesd “TIME OUT”!.
Rocksteady
I have put my name on all my opinions. Both here and at wildfire today. I am sure you know this. I have been quite annoyed with the rhetoric on this website, but have tried to remain focused on reviewing (for myself) the photos, videos, and reports as they have became available. I was recently accused of being someone else, or at the minimum, being a mouthpiece for said person. That is untrue, and Bob Powers needs to man up and stop saying I am Elizabeth, and admit his mistake. I have emailed him, but I do not expect a correction or an apology from him.
This experience has eroded my opinion and expectations of Bob Powers!
The whole discussion and site seems to be sliding into the gutter…
Maybe that’s what happens when tehre is no more new info to analyze, so we start analyzing each other…
But there is new information. 21 new videos that do contain direct information. You know this information will be used to write the story of YHF (just like all the other information that has been shared both privately and publicly). However, it seems that it is so incomplete that it is subject to personal interpretation. It really is sad that it has come to this. But, oh well. I am very thick skinned.
People need to focus on the 21 videos then, and forget the teenage drama queen BS…
Not aimed at anyone in particular, just a shotgun approach observation 🙂
FWIW… these kinds of “who are you, anyway?’ storms happen a LOT on forums like this.
The minute someone thinks that someone is posting under multiple names on forums like this… and they start posting about THAT rather than the ‘business’ of the forum itself… it can ‘go viral’ and everyone feels the need to chime in about it.
It really doesn’t matter.
I can tell you right now that people DO end up posting to forums such as this under multiple ‘names’ all the time. It’s very common.
What MATTERS is whether or not ANY post is helping to ‘get to the TRUTH’.
I don’t care if anyone in particular is using four or five different names to post here… so long as those posts are, in some way, CONTRIBUTING to the final result of ‘more TRUTH’.
These storms always pass.
The same people that get ‘bored’ with things and turn to posting about each ‘other’ also quickly get bored with THAT, too.
It happens all the time. Such is the world of ‘public information sharing’. Sometimes it can get a little weird… but it still remains fundamentally important.
I am not Board just mad at the attacks made by certain people I have already named.
They can stop the attacks and I won’t attack them.
I have no clue who most are on here and value those that whish to join the conversation.
But I will not tolerate attacks on any one here without a reply. That’s where it started with Elizabeth in chapter IX and Calvin Ch. X. I have no reason to apologies to either on or multiple ones. You started it you can stop it.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 1, 2014 at 4:14 am
NOTE: Bringing this up from down below in a thread that has run out of room. It’s the thread where FIRE20+ posted his own (detailed) transcript of that part of video M2U00264 where we hear Gary Cordes and Tyson Esquibel discussing ‘sending an engine’ out to the Boulder Springs ranch and, in the middle of Cordes’ instructions to Esquibel about this we defintely can hear the words ‘Granite Mountain’.
I believe I am hearing the word ‘Do’ at the start of the conversation, but FIRE20+ reported he is hearing the word ‘Can’.
That FIRST WORD of that first sentence of that conversation is VERY hard to hear… and it really could go either way… or there might not actually be a word there at all.
Here is what Marti then said…
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I don’t hear Cordes saying ANYTHING
>> before “We have…” And I’m not
>> hearing an inflection at the end.
>>
>> I hear “We have a couple of
>> engines holdin’ in place at
>> Boulder Springs Ranch.”
>>
>> Then Tyson says “I’ll send one that way.”
>>
>> This may not make sense.
>> But I’m not trying to make sense.
>> I’m just trying to hear. And that’s
>> what I’m hearing.
Exactly. The ‘sense’ of it almost has to be ‘contextual’. SPGS1 Gary Cordes really does ‘swallow’ whatever that first word was ( if it’s even a complete word at all ) but somehow Esquibel himself KNEW what Cordes had said ( or was actually requesting ) and, hence, his answer that he would ‘Send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch” the first chance he got.
This whole ‘first part’ of that conversation reminds me of a line from that famous play “The Rainmaker” when Jimmy says…
“You might not know what I am saying but you know damn well what I mean.”
So regardless of what Cordes ACTUALLY says there… the ‘you know damn well what I mean’ part is revealed by what Esquibel CLEARLY says in response.
What Esquibel definitely heard was…
“We need an engine to be at Boulder Springs Ranch ASAP”.
So Esquibel responded with…
“OK… I’ll send one there”.
Cordes did NOT disagree with this response and, indeed, did nothing but confirm that Esquibel heard correctly and eventually confirmed all this with “sounds like a good plan”.
So there is really only one takeaway here, even if we can never decipher that ‘first word’ of that statement from Cordes.
Cordes wanted there to be an engine out there at the BSR in this timeframe… but for some specific purpose that was related to ‘Granite Mountain’ since we can also hear Cordes including them in ‘the plan’ as he was speaking to Esquibel.
Esquibel understood ( all of it ) and said he would send an engine that way to fulfill ‘the plan’ as soon as he got down to the Ranch House Restaurant.
Tyson Esquibel specifically makes Unit Log notes about this ‘plan’ he agreed to with Cordes ( which somehow involved Granite Mountain ).
Gary Cordes, on the other hand, NEVER mentions this ‘good plan’ at all in his ADOSH interview, even at the moments when the ADOSH investigators were asking him about this specific timeframe and what he did or didn’t know about Granite Mountain at that moment in time.
Cordes says NOTHING about even what Esquibel felt was important enough to make a Unit Log about.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
You have to wonder… why NOT?
Cordes was also ordering Trew and Hernandez to scout for a place to build line in proximity to Glen Isla at some late hour (1500-1600?) , right?
DO NOT DISAGREE WITH BOB POWERS
HE WILL MAKE FALSE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST YOU!
Where in the investigative documentation is that Calvin? I can dig for it but curious if you knew off the top of your head.
I think (not looking at it now and not 100%) it is in the Blue Ridge notes/ unit logs. I have always felt that there were resources being deployed to the south of the fire. And the latest revelation (engine(s) to BSR)in M2U00264 seems to support that .
DO NOT DISAGREE WITH BOB POWERS
HE WILL MAKE FALSE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST YOU!
I have had disagreement with a lot of people here.
The only allegations I make here are against those that attack others
and call them names and try to discredit there input’
Namely ELIZABETH/CALVIN.
No False allegations from me and I have been here since day ONE.
Your above statements seem to bolster my conclusion again ELIZABETH
For real information lets be specific as FIRE20+ asked were is that
discussion or statements that any one was going to build line to the south of the fire. Buy 1530 there was a solid wall of flame moving out into the flat south of the Fire no one in there right mind would attempt to build line in front of that fire.
It is called frontal attack in the middle of a extreme burning period’
in a solid brush field that totally burned in a little over one hour from
1530 to 1645.
Let me just say here that this summer Elizabeth on my E-Mail tried to convince me of that and that there was no wind of 20 plus that pushed the fire and over ran the crew. Just some info of my conversations with. Been at this same point with Elizabeth before.
Seems strange coming from Calvin? OR NOT?
For Specifics as to how the fire was laid out look at the maps.
W
S N
E
Slightly cocked to the north The fire was never laid out in a true North drawing so south was where the GM crew basically ended up at there deployment site or in the SE portion of the fire. In a ruff estimate.
Go back and look at the Fire Map……….
Ok so My attempt shoved the NSEW to gather instead of spread out.
P11 Blue ridge hotshots report
Structure Group 1 assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to SW of Yarnell
This comes at the third line below a 1600 time entry.
So who knows?
Got it Calvin, thanks. one more thing, where did you get “Trew and Hernandez” from because the documentation in the Blue Ridge pdf only says “Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.
Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision back to Dozer line. Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in subdivision. Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of manzanita and lockwood.”
This is Ball’s account we’re pulling this from, so it was Ball plus one. Who was the one? You say Hernandez?
I think the plus 1 was the Cat Operator (my opinion form the statement) to determine if they could build line they decided to load the cat on the lowboy and move out of the area because of the fire activity. This was after they left the area where they had been building line and during the time that BR was trying to find Ball. I believe he hooked a ride on the cat and could not hear his Radio. I may be mistaken but I believe Ball and the cat operator with lowboy tied in with every one at the restaurant.
Yes I think it is Ball. We see in his photos that he traveled to the YFD and got a ATV and then traveled back in to Glen Isla.
We also know that Hernandez was operating the dozer, so it would make sense that he would have been working with Ball.
I found something interesting today.
I’ve been searching for things related to the original certification of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. What little I have found is kind of confusing. I’m finding that, at the time the GM IHC was certified, there was a transition going on between an earlier and a later protocol for certifying IHCs. That transition was going on right as the Granite Mountain IHC was being certified. I’ve actually spent a large part of yesterday and today looking for more information on this.
However. In my Google searches I came across a book that was published August 25, 2014 by Arcadia Publishing, written by Eric Conrad Jackson, of the Prescott Fire Department, titled “Prescott Fire Department (Images of America”. It has a bunch of photos of the history of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, complete with names of the people in the photos that make up this history.
Here’s the link to the Google EBOOK Preview of “Prescott Fire Department By Eric Conrad Jackson”
http://books.google.com/books?id=fEz_AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA107&lpg=PA107&dq=%22granite+mountain%22+ihc+certification&source=bl&ots=JVmeiUt7tf&sig=Y4nMo7RCDcK8yFVKHo1T6FWuqKY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Yf98VPmTL9CSyASdtYC4Bw&ved=0CCIQ6AEwATgy#v=onepage&q=%22granite%20mountain%22%20ihc%20certification&f=false
Sorry about the endless url address. I started to do this via tinyurl, but I’m not sure it will work for you all.
Ok that url doesn’t look to be a problem.
That link works fine. Thanks, Marti.
Obviously there is no attempt in this ‘book’ to even fully describe what happened on June 30, 2013. All it says about that just suggests what a lot of people still think. That the men were, somehow, STATIONARY ( and not making a MOVE of their own choosing ) and the ‘big bad fire’ just ‘came and got them’.
From the ‘book’…
———————————–
The Yarnell Hll Fire killed 19 of the 20 Granite Mountain Hotshots on June 30, 2013, when the winds from a thunderstorm pushed the fire into the heavy brush surrounding their position.
———————————–
That’s it. That is all this ‘book’ says about what happened on June 30, 2013.
Not ‘technically’ incorrect… but still a little misleading. It really does make it sound like they were STATIONARY when the fire ‘came at them’ and NOT ‘bushwhacking’ on a move of their own choosing when they died.
The MOST striking thing about this ‘book’ is the constant naming of all the former Granite Mountain Hotshots in the plethora of photographs.
The final two photographs show the 50 ( FIFTY ) former GM ‘Hotshots’ that were actually there for the memorial service…. and that isn’t even the total number of actual ‘alum’ for this outfit.
Photo caption.
—————————————-
“Almost 50 alumni from the Granite Mountain Hotshots march in their traditional line on the way to the memorial ceremony at Tim’s Toyota Center. The honor of being alumni of this hotshot crew belongs to 67 men and women.”
—————————————-
67 ( SIXTY SEVEN ) ‘alum’.
That’s a lot of people… yet ADOSH was unable to actually interview ANY of them.
They sent emails out… but only apparently received a response from ONE of them who is now a Police Officer and even he said “I’m not sure I will cooperate”.
To this day… the fact that NONE of these 67 ( SIXTY SEVEN! ) GM alum have ever really had anything to say at all about their time with Granite Mountain ( good, bad, ugly or indifferent ) is really not just strange… it’s bizarre.
BTW: There is also one photo of the entire GM crew at the ‘Payson’ fire… when GM was ‘demobbed’. The photos also continually show GM Hotshot and (eventually) Squad Boss Phillip Maldonado… who only left Granite Mountain in March of 2013 and was replaced as ‘Squad Boss” by Robert Caldwell.
That ‘interview process’ to find Maldonado’s replacement is where we see those strange notes about a ‘Safety Zone Burnout’ that somehow “turned out OK in the end” when GM was working the ‘Nevada’ fire.
I believe the author of this ‘book’ is the same Conrad Jackson who was there in Yarnell on June 30, 2013, and eventually helped removed the GL bodies from the canyon.
This Conrad Jackson told his story to USA Today about helping to remove
the bodies from the canyon…
His ‘video interview’ about this originally appeared in an AZCENTRAL story which was then picked up by the MSM… including USA Today.
USAToday
Crew recounts recovering bodies of 19 hotshots who died fighting Yarnell Hill fire.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/08/crew-recovery-yarnell-hill-hotshots-bodies/2497831/
From the article…
————————————-
The Granite Mountain Hotshot crew was working on the south side. Matthews and his partner, Conrad Jackson, were on the northwest side, setting up a sprinkler system in case the fire got close to a house.
As the men worked, Jackson started hearing from family and friends who asked if something might have gone wrong on the fire. He didn’t know.
“With today’s technology, you start to get text messages and phone calls saying, ‘Hey, I heard this. You’re on the fire. What are you hearing?'” Jackson said.
There were conflicting reports. One said no firefighters were injured. Another said an entire crew was gone.
That night, a task-force leader met them between their post on the fire and base camp at Hays Ranch Road. He told them there were 19 fatalities. But he didn’t say who. Once they arrived at base camp, Matthews finally realized the gravity:
The Granite Mountain crew on the other end of the fire had been in what firefighters call a burnover. Everyone caught in the fire had died, 19 in all.
As the fire burned, the Prescott firefighters regrouped. There was talk of pulling out everyone from the department.
But Jackson and Matthews wanted to stay, to collect “the boys.”
“Anytime there’s a tragedy, a fatal tragedy, it’s tradition that,” Jackson said, his voice breaking, “your own family comes and gets you.”
“I don’t want strangers going in and getting them out of there,” he said. “I want to be the one that gets to go in there and get them out of there. It’s a horrific honor to go in and do that.”
————————————-
67 is not uncommon 20 person crew with 10 years as a crew.
turn over of say up to 10 a year average is possible.
With promotions transfers and new jobs crewmen and supervisors move on.
Oak Grove Hot Shots over 30 years over 500 Alum. They started with 25 to 30 man crews. Quite a few have passed on as the crew was established in 1955.
Many crewman work the summer and put themselves thru collage they come and go for many reasons.
Just a little info from my time as A hot Shot.
Thank you, Mr. Powers. Yes. It’s a ‘given’ that the ‘Hotshot’ business really is based on ‘temporary employment’ just like a LOT of other ‘Seasonal Occupations’. It’s already been determined that the ‘turnover rate’ for Granite Mountain can in no way be considered ‘out of the ordinary’.
I just still think it’s ‘mysterious’ that with over 67 ( SIXTY SEVEN ) individuals having first-hand knowledge of what it was like to be a ‘Granite Mountain Hotshot’ and work for that particular organization…
…not ONE of them has (apparently) been willing to talk about it in any way. Not even to the investigators who WANTED to talk to them.
Very strange.
I’m putting all of the photos Joy emailed me on November 13, with the Olympus Timestamps corrected, together in one folder in Dropbox. That way you can see the fire progression captured by all three cameras.
The folder is called “2014-11-13 All-OlympusTimeCorrect.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mk8lm56ipm399yz/AAA8U945R1dg6EKDsCE6oBKda?dl=0
It will take awhile to load.
Thank you, Marti. Nicely done. ( And, of course, HUGE Thanks to Joy and all the people who decided to SHARE these very important photos ).
You’re welcome!
And now I want to re-ask you a question. Since I discovered that JD doesn’t have all the Aaron videos posted, and I really want to download the rest of them–I guess, unfortunately, from YouTube–
When you use ClipConverter, what “conversion format” do you use?
I’m finding the YouTube videos I’m downloading that I already have from JD’s Dropbox (as a test) aren’t the same as the videos in JD’s Dropbox.
Still working on this……
For example, I’m downloading M2U00273R.mp4 from YouTube right now. That video from John’s Dropbox is 1920×1080, ie 1080P, and is 99.53 MB.
When I tell clipconverter to “do it” at 1080P, the file is 140.17 MB.
So, at least for the videos USFS redacted and published and saved at 1080P (which JD is posting on his Dropbox), which is an enlargement of the original, when they post them to YouTube, they’re posting them to a smaller format. Which, I think, is the reason why, when I tell clipconverter to make them 1080P, it makes a MUCH larger file.
And, I think, there’s a whole nuther deal going on with the MPGs, which, according to the files I downloaded from JD’s dropbox, are 720×404, which are a really weird format. I’m not sure how they are showing up on YouTube.
If this makes you braindead, please dis-regard it. But I’m doing this to converse w/WTKTT as to what we need to do with the Aaron videos that JD hasn’t posted to Dropbos, and, thus, we need to download from YouTube in order to really look at them.
So I’m asking WTKTT:
How are you downloading these videos from YouTube to get them as closely as possible to what you think are the original formats?
I’m not. The videos posted to YouTube by Arizona Forestry to their own ‘channel’ at YouTube are NOT the originals ( and never will be ) so I have just been accepting all the defaults when using ‘LinkConverter’ and accepting the MP4 files that are there.
I don’t know why only 12 of the original videos sent to InvestigativeMEDIA by US Forestry have been uploaded and there are still 9 missing.
And by ‘originals’… I do NOT mean the ACTUAL originals.
It still hasn’t been proven whether or not what US Forestry is delivering in response to a valid FOIA request are, in fact, the real ‘originals’ that were delivered TO them.
They admit to ‘editing’ only FOUR of them ( the ones that they chose to mark with an ‘R’ on the end of the filename ).
It still remains to be seen if the other 17 have been edited, cut, cropped, shortened or otherwise altered from the ‘actual’ Aaron Hulburd originals.
It is even still possible that US Forestry IS distributing exactly what THEY received… but some ‘editing’ or ‘shortening’ or other alterations took place before they even received anything from Prescott National Forest and/or Aaron Hulburd.
Just looking at these videos over and over… it is still NOT CREDIBLE to me that Aaron Hulburd would have turned his camera OFF at the times the FOIA release seems to want us to believe he did.
Gotcha. Thanks.
One more thing… and I think maybe this is ‘overdue’ for anyone who was wondering what a lot of the consternation was back in Chapter 9.
We NOW KNOW that what US Forestry was SENDING in response to however many FOIA requests they had for the material is the same stuff that InvestigativeMEDIA got…
…but they only fulfilled that FOIA request AFTER they had sent the SAME DVD to Arizona Forestry and got them to ‘get out ahead of the story’ and dump the contents of that DVD up on their own Arizona Forestry website.
That ‘getting out ahead of the story’ plan WORKED.
The ‘mainstream media’ really did believe that it was originally Arizona Forestry who filed an FOIA request for that materially and that Arizona Forestry was now ‘graciously’ sharing that information with the public.
There was NO mention in any of MSM stories of ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ and THEIR original direct FOIA to Prescott National Forest… which they ‘punted’ up to their parent company… US Forestry.
So it was a perfect ‘getting out ahead of the story’ move. They remained ‘in control’ of the initial public release of the material and made Arizona Forestry itself look like ‘the good guys’… even though there is still no real proof that Arizona Forestry ever filed their own FOIA request at all.
They succeeded in preventing the ORIGINAL request from ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ from even being mentioned in relation to the release of the material.
Somebody in the PR department at either the USFS or Arizona Forestry probably got first dibs on picking vacation time for that one.
The REASON that NONE of the material we were led to believe was being released by USFS contained ANY EXIF data was because in their haste to ‘get out ahead of the story’… Arizona Forestry just ‘dumped’ the material up to their YouTube channel and allowed YouTube to convert everything they were ‘dumping’ up there to the standard YouTube MP4 format.
When that conversion takes place up at YouTube… all the ‘origina’ metadata in the video is lost.
Even John Dougherty added slightly to the confusing by simply announcing some days later that HE had also gotten a DVD in response to HIS original InvestigativeMEDIA FOIA request… and John simpy said they were ‘the same as what Arizona Forestry released previously’.
That wasn’t really true.
What John really meant was that they were VISUALLY identical to what Arizona Forestry dumped up to YouTube ahead of everyone else…
…but once John Dougherty created his own Dropbox and started uploading what he had actually received did we discover that what was on the DVDs coming from US Forestry was NOT the same as what Arizona Forestry just ‘dumped’ to YouTube.
The DVDs coming out of US Forestry really did have files with formats other than MP4… ( like 3GP and MPG )… and there WAS a lot of the ‘original’ EXIF metadata still in the movie files.
So it was Arizona Forestry that started the whole ‘circle of confusion’ by just dumping what was on the DVD up to YouTube and letting them all convert to MP4… with no thought whatsoever that they were NOT providing the same material they received from ‘US Forestry’ in the first place.
They didn’t care about any of that.
They were still just trying to ‘get out ahead of the story’ as quickly as they knew how.
I am in the midst if doctors and test and blood labs but if there is one thing I want to publicly state after all this I am heading to YCSO to fipe complaint of the unwarranted and I did not deserve what just happen at 7:30am ..fipe is file. YCSO what is it your not sharing. in regards@to the yhf that i got the intense tone i did on my fqsting blood work morning . the tone based on misinformation I will write it all later on here from pc but I will be filling a complaint requesting apology letter from Sgt Ashby
The fact that Gary Cordes would try to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch as late as he did suggests that it still was unclear right up until less than 10 minutes before GM was entrapped that the fire was going to end up exploding (“erupting”? “blowing-up”?) as fast as it ultimately did to the South-Southeast (as opposed to continuing traveling more due east).
It was unclear to Cordes. Who didn’t know, from where he was located, what was happening on Granite Mountain’s side of the fire.
Marti, do you remember exactly where Cordes was located? I don’t. It seems that at least Cordes and GM were unclear, if not more folks.
From what I remember of WAY BACK WHEN (probably somewhere in the last chapter) I pieced together a timeline for Gary Cordes, when the Mayday calls happened. He was doing Structure Protection/Evacuations in that little neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road, on the northwest side of 89. I don’t remember right now how I got that. But I worked pretty hard to get it.
So that’s where I think he would have been when he asked Tyson Esquibel about the engine(s).
I really don’t think, at that point, he really knew what was happening in the area Granite Mountain was in. I think he had a “slide” in his mind, and it wasn’t accurate.
As I’ve said a million times over, I don’t think ANYBODY realized how quickly and powerfully that fire was turning. Even though they were all in the midst of it.
The people in the AIR did… and that includes the News Helicopter(s) up at 9,500 feet.
There was an ongoing MASSIVE disconnect and lack of communication between ground and air forces that day… right on up to ( and including ) the time of deployment.
If that was NORMAL… then it’s a wonder bodies aren’t being carried out from large fires just about all season long.
WTKTT, you said that there was a “massive disconnect” between the folks in the air and the folks on the ground, and you cite the news helicopter for such, but it wasn’t the job of those folks to keep the guys on the ground in the loop.
As to Bravo33, they were working on the NORTH side of the fire until shortly before the deployment…..
Reply to Elizabeth post on
December 1, 2014 at 5:35 am
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> WTKTT, you said that there was
>> a “massive disconnect” between the
>> folks in the air and the folks on the ground,
>> and you cite the news helicopter for such,
>> but it wasn’t the job of those folks to
>> keep the guys on the ground in the loop.
LOL. You actually, SERIOUSLY thought I was suggesting that it WAS, or something?
Of course it wasn’t… but given what happened that day and what a piss-poor job the ‘real’ air-support was doing communicating with ground forces that day… I kinda wish it HAD been their job.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> As to Bravo33, they were working on
>> the NORTH side of the fire until shortly
>> before the deployment…..
Yes… and they were LATE turning their attention to where it mattered… on the SOUTH side.
Just before he left the fire almost an HOUR before the final burnover at the deployment site… ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins told John Burfiend there was (paraphrasing) “a heck of a wind shift going on. Lots of flame headed towards Yarnell. You need to go look at that”.
Burfiend wanted to ‘finish’ what he was doing building that retardant line up there in Peeples Valley. Rory Collins then said “Yea… why don’t you do that”.
It then took almost 30 minutes for them to complete that… even though the wind had seriously shifted and the threat had moderated up north… and even after Collins told them fire was headed for Yarnell.
John Burfiend was ‘locked into what he had been doing’ and stayed too focused on that task for too long that day and was not reacting correctly to the dynamic situation.
That’s just ONE of the ‘massive disconnects’ that took place on just that one day regarding Air Support.
Anyway… the whole Air Aupport fiasco that day is a SIDE issue ( but still a BIG one ).
Getting back to the QUESTION….
I believe Marti is right about Cordes directing those structure protection operations close to the Highway there north of Shrine Road… but Cordes was ALSO the designated ‘third lookout’ for the men in Harper Canyon ( another task that he failed miserably ).
His actual PHYSICAL location was a place where he was supposed to be able to SEE his own “Aw SHIT Ridge” trigger point for ALL resources to evacuate to the only place he considered SAFE at that point ( The Ranch House Restaurant… and NOT the BSR ).
I believe he was PHYSICALLY located at a gas station that is on Highway 89 there just north of where Shrine Road intersects with it.
That’s what his ADOSH notes seem to indicate but this really has always been just one more thing both sets of investigators ( SAIT and ADOSH ) didn’t think it was important to ascertain.
So are you saying he was directing the evacuation of that neighborhood from the gas station?
I was thinking he was actually in the neighborhood while he was doing that.
And, yeah, it’s all really fuzzy.
And remember, he DID order that crew out at 3:50 PM. They just didn’t do it.
Since there was NO Division Supervisor that day for that critical area of the fire… Forces was doing a lot of things I don’t think he had planned on doing that day. He really WAS also supposed to be acting as the THIRD lookout for the activity HE requested be done out in Harper Canyon. Where he was actually located and why all the forces under his supervision got no real warnings from ANY of the three lookouts and had to self-evacuate is still part of the ‘untold story’.
The good old ‘smartphone spellchecker’ troll struck up above and somehow changes ‘Cordes’ to ‘Forces’. Go figure.
The first sentence above SHOULD have read…
“Since there was NO Division Supervisor that day for that critical area of the fire… Cordes was doing a lot of things I don’t think he had planned on doing that day.”
According to Cordes’ interview (which is what I used when I timelined this), he was doing evacuations in the area around Norton Way, then he “tied in” with his resources (I’m guessing that’s the call to Esquibel), and then he drove to the Ranch House Restaurant.
I think he was really there, not at the gas station.
Maybe so. I wish we weren’t still sort of ‘guessing’ about that. Maybe that really does explain why Cordes’ resources out in Harper Canyon had to self-evacuate and some of them almost died. With no Division Supervisor to oversee things in that area… Forces was trying to do too much that day.
Ah… the old ‘spellchecker on a smartphone’ troll strikes again. ‘Cordes’ got changed to ‘Forces’ in the last paragraph above.
WTKTT You said:
“Maybe that really does explain why Cordes’ resources out in Harper Canyon had to self-evacuate and some of them almost died. With no Division Supervisor to oversee things in that area… Forces was trying to do too much that day.”
Yes, I agree that Cordes “was trying to do too much that day.”
As a Structure Protection Group Supervisor he was in that north Yarnell neighborhood trying to get people to evacuate.
While his own crew at the Youth Camp wasn’t evacuating their “assignment” as quickly as he ordered them to.
And he was concerned about the GM Hotshots (with a “slide” in his head that couldn’t possibly be accurate, given how fast the fire was turning), and wanting to send resources to help them (we think), while he was in a location where he couldn’t really see the overall fire.
While a Division Supervisor assigned to the Division that would have included his area was, according to HIS interview, involved in protecting structures on Sickles Road (not even remotely in his assigned Division) (and I’m not even sure about that, all things considered).
No kidding. Cordes, along with many others, was totally over his head.
Which is why I (and Safety Matters, the folks that wrote the ADOSH Report) see the assignment of a completely inadequate Type 2 SHORT Incident Management Team as setting the stage for the deaths and near deaths that took place on that fire that day.
MARTI, i think they did know. i was at the top of the mountain and felt it but by the time we were descending it had picked up considerably– enough i had to encourage joy to move even threatening to leave here more than once and sending a copter back to pick her up if she were left. Glad i did now, she is alive and so am i albeit by only ten or eleven minutes,
To clear up some misunderstandings I see being commented on here, let me clarify a few things being misinterpreted:
1. Yuma Type 6 engine – AZ-A1S Engine 162 is a Arizona Forestry type 6 engine assigned to and operated by the Yuma DOC hand crew based in Yuma Arizona. It is not a Yuma Fire Department engine, but a engine assigned to the Arizona Forestry/Arizona Department of Corrections fire crew. I do not recall this engine being on the line 6/30/13, but my guess is it was with the Yuma crew as a chase or support vehicle. Possibly it came to the fire at a later date.
2. “Unknown State engine in a photo” – the only other possible “state” engine assigned to the fire on June 30 was State Engine 151 , the Phoenix District engine from Arizona Forestry Division. On June 30 this crew helped catch a slop over on Model Creek Rd as the fire pushed towards ICP. It is a four door International Type 6 engine (flatbed style)
3. Model Creek road burnout – There was never a burnout of Model Creek road. As planned, there was a burnout of Hays Ranch Road as crews left Double Bar A ranch, performed by Tonto NF E58 under direction of Darrell Willis. This was an attempt to stop the fire from taking the ranch and to hold the fire south of Hays Ranch Rd. There was also an attempt of a similar nature, to burnout the south or west side of Monica Mine Rd south of Model Creek rd, hence the request of additional resources. This was north of Double Bar A ranch. This was to try and prevent the fire from entering the structures in Model Creek/Monica Mine Rd area and stop fire from entering Peeples Valley, and was being observed by Operations Chief Todd Abel. However, the firing operation did not “take” as the fire was pushing towards ICP and ignitions were not successful. So this operation ceased. This is the “burnout of Model Creek Rd” Willis is referring to. It was burned out the next day under the direction of Division Supervisor Robb Beery and SUCCESSFULLY stopped the fire from burning north and into the structures in that area. Look at the final fire perimeter map and you will see this.
4. CAWRT – this is an organization of Maricopa and Pinal County fire departments to coordinate fire response efforts, as well as to train and communicate in regards to wildland fire efforts. The Facebook page allows those agencies to communicate responses….not be “PROUD’ of what we are doing. These posts allows CAWRT agencies to follow resource status, what is available, what is assigned, etc. Not to brag. It is a communications TOOL for CAWRT agencies.
Looks like your post took some time to “get through moderation.”
Thank you VERY MUCH for this.
It is going to take me some time to really read and digest this. And thus comment. But I will. And I really appreciate your commenting here.
THANK YOU!
Reply to Wasthere63013 post on November 30, 2014 at 10:23 am
>> WasThere63013 said…
>>
>> To clear up some misunderstandings I see being commented on here,
>> let me clarify a few things being misinterpreted:
Thank you for ALL of your comments and your participation in this ongoing discussion.
There is some very important information in your comments, but there are also some places where what you are claiming does NOT match what is in some of the ‘official records’ ( Like Darrell Willis’ own official Unit Logs ).
I have notated those ‘discrepancies’ below… and had a few questions for you, as well.
>> WasThere63013 said…
>>
>> 1. Yuma Type 6 engine – AZ-A1S Engine 162 is a Arizona
>> Forestry type 6 engine assigned to and operated by the
>> Yuma DOC hand crew based in Yuma Arizona.
>> It is not a Yuma Fire Department engine, but a engine assigned
>> to the Arizona Forestry/Arizona Department of Corrections fire
>> crew. I do not recall this engine being on the line 6/30/13, but
>> my guess is it was with the Yuma crew as a chase or support
>> vehicle. Possibly it came to the fire at a later date.
The official Yarnell Hill Fire Resource Order number for ‘AZ-A1S Engine 162’ was ‘Request Number’ E-19.
It says the actual original ORDER for ‘Engine 162’ was placed at 4:29 AM ( very early morning ) on Sunday, June 30, 2013 and that it was ‘Needed in Yarnell’ just 3 hours and 31 minutes later at 8:00 AM.
Oddly enough, though, all three of the following ‘Date’ related fields in the Resource Order for Engine 162 all have a DATE of July 2 and a TIME of 8:39…
Assigned Date/Time: 07/02/13 0839 PNT
Estimated Time of Departure: 07/02/13 0839 PNT
Estimated Time of Arrival: 07/02/13 0839 PNT
From the publicly released ‘J- Resources Orders.pdf’ document…
———————————————————————–
Request Number: E-19
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 0429 PNT
From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resurce Requested: Engine, Type 6
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0800 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: AZ-ADC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 07/02/13 0839 PNT
Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-A1S
Resource Assigned: ENGINE – T6 – AZ-A1S – LIC #G515EG – E-162
M/D Ind: M
Estimated Time of Departure: 07/02/13 0839 PNT
Estimated Time of Arrival: 07/02/13 0839 PNT
Travel Mode: ( No entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( Yarnell Hill Fire )
Special Needs: ( No entry )
Reporting Instructions: ( No entry )
———————————————————————
The ‘Fulfillment note’ for order E-19 in the same document seems to verify that this was, in fact, a 2005 FORD F550 out of YUMA, Arizona…
Page 125 of the ‘J- Resource Orders’ document…
——————————————————-
Req. No.:E-19
Documentation: Request E-19 – Engine, Type 6 – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with ENGINE – T6 – AZ-A1S – LIC #G515EG – E-162 (2005 FORD F550 – YUMA) (AZ-ADC) by JESSE CAVE@AZ-ADC ROSS.
Entered By: JESSE CAVE (AZ-ADC) 07/02/2013 0839 PNT
——————————————————————-
There are actually THREE additional sub-orders in the ‘J- Resource Orders’ document that were placed for CREW attached to State Engine 162 out of YUMA…
Those E-19 Resource sub-orders are as follows…
E-19.1 – Resource Requested: FF TYPE 2 (FFT2) – ( No name entered )
E-19.2 – Resource Requested: FF TYPE 2 (FFT2) – ( No name entered )
E-19.3 – Resource Requested: ENGINE BOSS (ENGB) – Gonzales, Arthur B.
The ‘Fulfillment notes’ for those three orders confirm that at the time the order was placed… it was not known WHO the two FFT2s would be… but that the ‘Engine Boss’ coming with ‘Engine 162’ would be Arthur B. Gonazales…
———————————-
Req. No.: E-19.1
Documentation: REQUESTS FOR FIREFIGHTERS AS PART OF ENGINE MODULES. NO DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO WAS SUPPOSED TO FILL THE ORDERS. CANCELLING. IF WE NEED TO FILL IN CREW MEMBERS LATER, WE CAN ADD TO THE ROSTERS.
Entered By: ALYSSA STEWART (AZADC) 07/03/2013 1210 PNT
Req. No.: E-19.2
Documentation: REQUESTS FOR FIREFIGHTERS AS PART OF ENGINE MODULES. NO DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO WAS SUPPOSED TO FILL THE ORDERS. CANCELLING. IF WE NEED TO FILL IN CREW MEMBERS LATER, WE CAN ADD TO THE ROSTERS.
Entered By: ALYSSA STEWART (AZADC) 07/03/2013 1210 PNT
E-19.3 Request E-19.3 – ENGINE BOSS (ENGB) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with GONZALES, ARTHUR B (AZ-ADC) by JESSE CAVE@AZ-ADC ROSS.
————————————————
>> WasThere63013 also said…
>>
>> 2. “Unknown State engine in a photo” – the only other
>> possible “state” engine assigned to the fire on June 30 was
>> State Engine 151 , the Phoenix District engine from Arizona
>> Forestry Division. On June 30 this crew helped catch a slop
>> over on Model Creek Rd as the fire pushed towards ICP. It is
>> a four door International Type 6 engine (flatbed style).
The official ‘Resource Order’ for State Engine 151 is the very first one that appears in the official ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document.
The ‘Request Number’ for Engine 151 was ‘E-1’.
It was ordered for Yarnell on 9:18 PM Friday evening, June 28, 2013, just hours after the intial lightning strike was reported.
The ‘Resource Assigned’ field for ‘Engine 151’ confirms it was a ‘2006 International FLATBED’ and gives the License Plate number…
E-1: Resource Assigned: ENGINE – T5 – AZ-A1S – LIC#G578EG – PHOENIX – E-151 (2006 INTL 4200 – 300 GAL) (AZ-ADC)
There are photos taken from INSIDE of this engine as it was arriving up on Model Creek Road… and the DRIVER of that ‘Engine 151’ was obviously wearing a ‘Go Pro’ Helmet Camera that day.
Do you happen to know answers to any of the following questions…
1) WHO was that DRIVER of State Engine 151 that day?
2) Did he ever USE that Helmet Camera he was obviously wearing?
3) If so… do you know if anyone has ever seen those videos and/or hear the possible background radio traffic the video might have captured?
>> WasThere63013 also said…
>>
>> 3. Model Creek road burnout – There was never a burnout
>> of Model Creek road. As planned, there was a burnout of Hays
>> Ranch Road as crews left Double Bar A ranch, performed by
>> Tonto NF E58 under direction of Darrell Willis. This was an
>> attempt to stop the fire from taking the ranch and to hold the
>> fire south of Hays Ranch Rd.
Darrell Willis’ official ( typed ) Unit Log confirms the burnout along Hays Ranch Road as ‘crews left Double Bar A ranch’, but according to that same ‘Unit Log’ and Darrell Willis himself… your statement that “There was never a burnout of Model Creek Road” is false.
From Darrell Willis’ official ( typed ) Unit Log released February, 2014…
Darrell Willis confirms that they DID ‘fire out along East side of main road’ circa 2:30 PM as all resources were being pulled out of the Double Bar A Ranch…
——————————————————————————-
1430 ( 2:30 PM )
Gave Command for resources to leave the ( Double Bar A ) ranch. Fire activity very active. ROS ( Rate Of Spread ) increasing. Fire is in a line East to West against the structures.
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Gave command to fire out along East side of main road as the resources evacuated
——————————————————————————–
However… Willis ALSO confirms there was a ‘burnout’ later along the SOUTH side of Model Creek Road… starting from the point where Model Creek Road intersects with ‘Double Bar A Ranch’ Road… Willis seems to report that firing operation went well… with only a few slop overs…
———————————————————————————
1515 ( 3:15 PM )
Discussed tactics with Operations Musser about firing south of Model Creek Road to protect south. Approval Granted. Assigned Ranch resources to begin firing from the Intersection of Double Bar A ranch (road) WEST along Model Creek Road. Several slop overs occurred but were picked up.
———————————————————————————
This Model Creek Road ‘burnout’ ( with drip torches ) also seems to be confirmed by the first 3 of the 21 new videos just recently released by US Forestry because of a ‘Freedom of Information’ request by InvestigativeMEDIA.
Those are the videos taken by the 3 Bea Day Type 2 team ‘off-the-radar’ hires from Prescott National Forest who were there that afternoon…
Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Aaron Hulburd definitely shot videos 4-21 and it is also assumed he was the one filming the first 3 videos of the burnout taking place up on Model Creek Road… but that has yet to be verified since US Forestry did NOT provide ANY kind of ‘documentation’ to accompany these recently released videos.
We can SEE the UTVs that belonged to the other two Prescott National Forest ‘off-the-radar’ hires Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell appearing in those videos and we know that all three of them ( Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell ) were moving around Yarnell as a ‘unit’ that afternoon from the moment they arrived until the moment they also became 3 of only 5 firefighters to be the first ones out at the deployment site… but the actual shooter of the first 3 videos still needs to be verified.
>> WasThere63013 also said…
>>
>> There was also an attempt of a similar nature, to burnout
>> the south or west side of Monica Mine Rd south of Model
>> Creek rd, hence the request of additional resources. This was
>> north of Double Bar A ranch. This was to try and prevent the fire
>> from entering the structures in Model Creek/Monica Mine Rd area
>> and stop fire from entering Peeples Valley, and was being
>> observed by Operations Chief Todd Abel.
Yes. This activity near that structure on ‘Miner’s Camp Road’ just north of the ‘Duble Bar A Ranch’ was actually partially filmed by the ABC News 15 Helicopter that was hovering over Peeples Valley at that time at an altitude of 9,500 feet. See the second half of the ABC 15 ‘raw footage’ videos released publicly on YouTube.
That is also the location where OPS1 Todd Abel seems to have been circa 1639, when Captain Jesse Steed’s first “We are in front of the flaming front” MAYDAY call occurred on the Air-To-Ground Channel… and it is also the place from where OPS1 Todd Abel would ( 2 minutes later ) tell John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33′ to stop ignoring those repeated calls to him from Granite Mountain and ANSWER them to (quote) “See what we got goin’ on”.
>> WasThere63013 also said…
>>
>> However, the firing operation did not “take” as the fire was pushing
>> towards ICP and ignitions were not successful. So this operation
>> ceased. This is the “burnout of Model Creek Rd” Willis is referring to.
That last sentence doesn’t match Darrell Willis’ own Unit Log entries.
See above.
>> WasThere63013 also said…
>>
>> It was burned out the next day under the direction of Division
>> Supervisor Robb Beery and SUCCESSFULLY stopped the fire
>> from burning north and into the structures in that area.
>> Look at the final fire perimeter map and you will see this.
Probably so… but again… this does not correspond with Darrell Willis’ own Unit Log notes.
See above.
>> WasThere63013 also said…
>>
>> 4. CAWRT – this is an organization of Maricopa and Pinal
>> County fire departments to coordinate fire response efforts,
>> as well as to train and communicate in regards to wildland
>> fire efforts. The Facebook page allows those agencies to
>> communicate responses….not be “PROUD’ of what we
>> are doing.
Why in the world would you NOT be ‘PROUD of what you are doing?’
NOTE: You said “what WE are doing” so I am assuming you are PART of CAWRT, in some way. If that is a wrong assumption, I apologize.
>> WasThere63013 also said…
>>
>> These posts allows CAWRT agencies to follow resource
>> status, what is available, what is assigned, etc. Not to brag.
>> It is a communications TOOL for CAWRT agencies.
Who ever said anyone was ‘bragging’ about anything?
Being PROUD of what you do ( and even saying so ) doesn’t mean you are ‘bragging’.
I believe the comment(s) you are referring to that contained the word PROUD ( in reference to CAWRT ) are ones that I made down below regarding some postings on the PUBLIC CAWRT Facebook page.
Here are those comments ‘pulled up’ from below for reference…
—————————————————————————————–
On November 29, 2014 at 10:32 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
The ‘Central Arizona Wildland Response Team’ ( CAWRT )
has an interesting Facebook page and it is HERE…
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Central-Arizona-Wildland-Response-Team-CAWRT/201969799880168
It also has some pretty interesting ‘posts’ on it, as well.
Scroll down and look at what was posted there on June 30, 2014, on the day of the one year anniversary of the Yarnell Fire where ( according to Arizona Forestry’s official SAIT investigation ) ‘No one did anything wrong” and there were (supposedly) no LCES or 10+18 rule violations…
———————————————————–——
Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT)
June 30 · Edited
As we are sure most of you have, please put the families and loved one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots in your thoughts and prayers.
At this time last year, several CAWRT crews were a part of the firefighting efforts at Yarnell Hill and still remember the tragedy as if it was yesterday. Take the time to share with your crews the new LCANS procedures as well as reviewing the 10 and 18 and LCES.
————————–———————————————
So according to even the CAWRT… even though (supposedly) “no one did anything wrong” a year ago… this public post of ‘remembrance’ is ALSO asking their followers to PLEASE make SURE they ALL take the time to review LCANS, 10+18 and LCES…
L = Lookouts
C = Communications
E = Escape Routes
S = Safety Zones
The life you save might be your own.
And way back on the morning of June 30, 2013 itself… they posted THIS…
———————————————————————-
Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT)
June 30, 2013
CAWRT is sending engines, tenders & overhead to the Yarnell Fire in central Arizona from both the east and west side groups.
———————————————————————-
They were simply ‘announcing’ that they were ‘getting involved’ in the Yarnell Hill Fire, but there isn’t really any detail in there. EXACTLY which engines and EXACTLY which tenders and EXACTLY what ‘overhead’ they were ‘sending’ still needs to be determined.
**** That original comment regarding the PUBLIC CAWRT Facebook
**** page and the ‘one year anniversary’ comment on it was followed by
**** these two ‘replies’, one of which contained the word ‘proud’…
——————————————————————————-
On November 29, 2014 at 8:27 pm Marti Reed replied…
And yes they did (send resources). In spades.
And ADOSH needs to interview ALL OF THEM.
——————————————————————————–
On November 29, 2014 at 10:51 pm, WTKTT replied…
Marti… there are only TWO Facebook posts on the CAWRT Facebook page for the day of Sunday, June 30, 2013.
The first one was in the MORNING where they were ‘proud’ to announce they were sending ALL KINDS of resources to help fight the Yarnell Fire that Sunday.
The second one was later in the evening… AFTER the tragedy… and was simply expressing CAWRT’s condolences to the families of the fallen.
———————————————————————————
I still think the more interesting comment on the CAWRT Facebook page is the one that was made on the one year anniversary of the Yarnell tragedy.
It was SPECIFICALLY asking the ‘followers’ of that PUBLIC Facebook page to ‘remember the Granite Mountain Hotshots today’… but ( in the same breath/comment ) asking EVERYONE to please review LCANS, 10+18 and LCES.
That would suggest a PUBLIC acknowledgement on the part of CAWRT ( despite what the Arizona Forestry SAIR report had to say ) that there WERE 10+18 or LCES ( or both ) violations that led to the tragedy in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Do you think this ‘point of view’ seemingly being expressed by that CAWRT Facebook public post really is pretty much ‘accepted’ amongst CAWRT members… or was it (perhaps) just the point of view of whoever wrote that PUBLIC Facebook comment that day?
I’m getting a little different take on the point of Joy’s re-counting of the conversation regarding the Leonard/Leroy interaction, than just whether or not Willis heard the deployment traffic. Specifically, this part:
“We shared has he heard the last communication where they said they were getting ready to deploy? and Leonard stated that was not their last communications. He said the radios were clear not static. He said the Yuma captain went up o Willis and said to Willis “did you hear that last call. Will said “No. I didn’t” Willis ran to his truck and grabbed a cell phone. Leonard Hunter heard what the Yuma guy and Leonard says one of the GMHS was on the radio saying “We’re taking shelter.” again “We’re taking shelter.” and again “We’re taking shelter now.” 2-4 seconds later panicky voice “we’re covering up.” and again “we’re covering up.” and that was that”.
What I am getting from this, is that Leonard actually knew of clear, concise radio traffic that has until now, never seen the light of day. Read the quotes. If indeed this is accurate, this radio traffic obviously happened after all of the KNOWN deployment radio traffic, and perhaps when the recorded traffic was gathering just static, SOMEBODY was actually picking up the clear broadcast of that.
Note, Leonard says the deployment traffic was not their LAST communication.
So the way I’m reading this, is that Willis was approached as asked if he had heard THIS specific broadcast (the supposed ACTUAL last communication), Willis said no (which was a true statement) and ran to get his phone (probably to report this new development to someone).
That seems to me what the account above is relaying.
You all can directly call him yet he is one who does not like recognition or to taalk about the fire except he is willing to talk. of what he saw and heard. i am using his worda above exactly. because he is not wanting anyone to get in trouble or him.
Leonard Hunter calls Joy A Collura “Barbara. Walters” and nervously shares his photos and account.
HE LIVED on Sicles Road(don’t mind cell typos) and hr was present during the fire even when crew left area plus after evacuation . he was on sickles or pioneer that week. as we shared to marti last night the yellow truck was with water tank and short hoses with yuma logo. the men were sweaty and at rest at times. Leonard helped byron kimball when byron asked “do u knoq of any roads to get in there??” I will get more answers tomorrow . Leonard walked with byron as byron assessed. the area. Leonard was given a business card from az forestry div planning and preparedness public safety officer
Joy asked Leonard. are you 100% sure there was communications after thhe gmhs said they were planning to deploy and as u state this because I will publicly be sharing your account and he said I cannot change WHAT IT IS…WHAT HAPPENED .
so Joy asked Leonard did. he hearany things. besides thhat covering up and he said everyone began to pack up and get in vehicles and tactical moved to school. 1/4 miles away. Leonard stayed behind so no more radios to hear when it moved away
Joy asked what color helmets he saw and he said guys don’t focus to fashion color of helmets and Joy said did he remember any yellpw or blue helmets ? Leonard mmany times mentioned “water thief” and anyone who worked with hin can be identified by just that topic he said. he is persistent it was yuma so i will meet and confirm tomorrow with Andrew Williams if he remembers Leonard to have confirmation there because we now kbow the prison crew location that weekend which compliments willis acxount but my reflection back on Leonard is Willis did not hear the account. and Leonard does not know willis nor would he have any axe to grind just a simple kind person who has his way of living …I can promise u like we told marti by phone u get these locals beer and whiskey and u qill see more open up…Leonard was instructed to take photo of a click so we hae document prof his. ell time is sppt on….clock not click…have not hae…proof. not prof…etc….darn typos.
I agree that is what this account seems to be saying… but it seems to me that it would be very odd if there was THAT much ‘clear’ radio traffic from out in the box canyon ( I am counting FIVE separate (supposedly) CLEAR transmissions ) without someone ELSE also hearing them and having reported hearing them by now.
Again… I am counting…
THREE separate ( and clear ) “We are taking shelter”
TWO separate ( and clear ) “We are covering up now”.
Maybe it is possible that the ONLY ‘simplex’ direct line of sight connection for those moments really was to radios almost 4 miles north up on Model Creek Road… and these men really WERE the only ones to ‘clearly’ hear those FIVE separate transmissions…
…but that’s a stretch.
I am in ‘TRUST but VERIFY’ mode on this one.
It is, in fact, first important to find out who this ‘Yuma Captain’ even actually WAS up there on Model Creek Road at that time ( 1639 to 1642 ).
The Possible Radio traffic if in Willis truck could be coming across on the Crew Net Only and no one else there would hear it but Willis. Or people near his truck.
Just a thought…..
I would say that’s a distinct possibility.
Willis COULD have been the one who was ‘away’ from his truck radio ( which probably a higher-power receiver than a BK portable ) and it was the Yuma Captain who was nearer to Willis’ truck, heard the traffic, and wanted to make sure Willis was hearing it as well.
They do, in fact, teach these guys to ‘constantly talk to each other’ as part of standard Fire Shelter Deployment, right?
They are supposed to KEEP TALKING to each other even after going into shelter, right?
Maybe this really was the different ‘sides’ of the deployment site itself just talking to each OTHER over their intra-net radios as they have been taught to do when taking shelter.
Whoops… hit ‘Send’ too early.
Meant to add…
As Mr. Powers points out… it is the proximity to Willis himself ( and his truck ) that might explain why only someone near someone with the GM intra-net frequency programmed into their radios might have even had a chance of hearing/reporting these FIVE separate transmissions.
If that really does explain it… then Brendan McDonough and the other 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots who were driving all FOUR of the Granite Mountain vehicles at deployment time MOST LIKELY heard these FIVE transmissions as well.
They were all still just arriving at the Ranch House Restaurant and/or still PARKING all the GM vehicles when these FIVE transmissions most likely took place.
Very possible to Probable.
If they were that clear where they were how clear were they all the way off the mountain.
Sounds like good radio transmissions to me.
Thanks to TTWARE for asking about this, and WTKTT and Bob Powers for this conversation.
That’s the first thing in Joy’s email that I really noticed, but wasn’t able to do anything with until I could share it here.
That’s what I meant about “what/how Willis heard/didn’t hear.”
If these communications were only possibly, all things considered, hearable over the Intranet channel, and heard via Willis’ radio, that also could mean that the Three Prescotteers might have been “hearing” (and maybe even recording?) them, also, since they cloned their radios off of Willis’.
I don’t know how that would work–how an Intracrew radio signal would have been more powerful, and hearable, than something like a Tac or whatever else.
I’m trying to prepare myself for calling Leonard this week. I’m not totally sure how specific and focused and clear Leonard is as a witness, via the conversation relayed from me to Joy to Leonard and back to Joy and then to me last night. And it was a LATE NIGHT conversation.
I’m still thinking that the Engine in Larz Garcia’s photograph is the “Yuma” Engine in the Dispatch Logs. I don’t know if it’s a BLM engine or a FWS engine. By color, it could be either.
But, as far as I know, there was only one BLM engine left on the fire at that time, and I think (but I could be wrong) it was still further in on Model Creek Road with Todd Foster’s team protecting all those houses in there. And that engine was a Type 3 engine, which I don’t think the one in Garcia’s photos is.
Part of the problem is that NONE of the BLM engines are recorded in the Dispatch Logs.
According to the conversation we had last night, Leonard said he was with what sounds like a Water Tender that was yellow and had “Yuma” on its side. There was nothing like that in the Dispatch Orders, which is why I wrote below something like “I wonder what other crews/vehicles were working off the radar on that fire.”
But I would think that someone Leonard is calling a Captain wouldn’t be the manager of a Water Tender, but, more likely, an Engine Boss of an Engine.
That would be, as I wrote below, Arthur Gonzalez, Phoenix FD, one of the two Administrative Contacts, along with Tyson Esquibel, Peoria FD, for the Arizona “Wildland Resource Group” “West CAWRT,” or Central Arizona Wildland Resource Team.
Some of the stuff that Leonard said, via Joy, was also a little dicey, also. But I just don’t know. I’m definitely going to have to talk with him, myself.
And this conversation helps me gather what to ask him about.
Definitely, if you have questions, thoughts, etc, I’m very welcoming to hear them.
Marti—-On the Radio it depends on what channel was priority set. If Willis had set his truck radio on priority crew channel then that is what would override the other channels including Tac channels. Willis could have had his personal portable set on Tac.
and scanning others if Tac was bussy then he would not have herd any other traffic on his portable. The truck would always go to the crew net if any one talked on it. It could also be off scan and set to 1 freq.
That help any?
Sorta Kinda. Technically speaking, yes.
If the radio in his truck is set, for some reason (which I’m still not sure of) priority-wise, to the GM intranet channel, it’s broadcasting what they are saying.
But, he’s not actually in his truck. He’s overseeing a burnout on Model Creek Road, so what he’s prioritizing on his own “hand-held” radio is his own Tac channel.
Somebody else, presumably the Captain Leonard is referring to, is nearer Willis’s truck and hears those communications.
So he dashes over to Willis and grabs him and says something like, “Are you hearing this??”
And by the time Willis gets back to his truck, it’s all over. He hasn’t heard it. So he grabs his cellphone and calls Todd Abel.
Who doesn’t have that Granite Mountain intracrew channel, at least on priority, and hadn’t been listening to it.
So this whole thing gets lost in the wind until now.
Does that make sense?
Another similar scenario is that Willis was involved with priority (tac) radio traffic on his portable, and the radio in the truck did not have priority feature ENABLED at all, and captures the GM traffic in scan mode and holds that channel during the broadcasts.
Sounds reasonable but we are guessing on what channel the Truck radio was on. but no one else has commented on this so I am guessing it was the crew net. Was the crew talking between each other?
Seems Possible??????
The truck radio would more than likely have been set on Tac 1. But, if it was in scan mode, without priority enabled, it could have picked-up the crew traffic and held that channel during those broadcasts.
See a recent comment from Joy above.
Joy says the same person who is reporting about these FIVE separate transmissions also says that Darrell Willis was 30 yards from his truck when they took place.
30 yards is 90 feet.
If Willis really was that far from his truck and these transmissions were ONLY coming across a channel on his TRUCK radio…
…then between the noise of the WIND and the noise from the FIRE itself up there on Model Creek Road… I doubt Willis would have had a chance at hearing them from 90 feet away.
So it WOULD make sense, then, that someone who had been nearer to his truck and DID hear them was trying to report these transmission to Willis himself.
WTK said
I also think it’s a GOOD thing to return to talking about all these VERY important (21) videos that were recently released. I don’t feel like they have been talked about near enough yet.
I agree.
Video M2Uoo062 appears to show Sciacca trying to get Musser’s NEW cell number in a emergent sort of fashion. Sounds like he uses the word “picky” as in short for predicament? The Prescoteer Bucky? appears to be seeing vehicles coming and tells Sciacca “you should be good Tony” What does that mean? Was Sciacca overseeing the crews in that area?
Also, at the 25 second mark there appears to be a third utility trailer parked in the front of other two PNF trucks pulling utility trailers. Who is that?
WTK. Just curious if you have nailed down a time for this video? Thanks for all you do here!
I think when ??? says, “You should be good, Tony,” he means where Tony’s truck is parked.
Right after ??? (I really need to get these guys names attached to them better) says “You should be good, Tony,” Aaron turns the cam to the right and catches where Tony’s truck is parked.
At least that’s how I interpreted that.
I really don’t know what that word that Tony says is. I first interpreted it as “fix.” But it’s hard for me to say with certainty, it’s pretty muffled.
And I think it’s the red UTV parked in front of the trucks.
Now that I just went to look at the vehicles and UTVs in Lightroom, and came back and listened, I realized I think Tony’s saying “pinch tonight.”
Reply to calvin post on November 30, 2014 at 6:39 am
.>> calvin said…
>>
>> Video M2Uoo062 appears to show Sciacca trying to get Musser’s
>> NEW cell number in a emergent sort of fashion. Sounds like he
>> uses the word “picky” as in short for predicament?
No. He is simply saying “I’m in a PINCH” there.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> The Prescoteer Bucky? appears to be seeing
>> vehicles coming and tells Sciacca “you should
>> be good Tony” What does that mean?
Yes. That is Prescott Bea Day Team ‘off the radar’ hire KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell speaking there… and I believe all he meant was that even though vehicles are now coming out of the Youth Camp area… that Sciacca’s vehicle was not going to be ‘in their way’ and he shouldn’t need to move his vehicle.
At +28 seconds, when Hulburd pans to the EAST… we see the back of Sciacca’s PNF vehicle parked half on the road and half onto the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine. This appears to be why KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell was telling Sciacca ‘You should be good’. There was still enough room there to the left of Sciacca’s truck for vehicles to ‘get by’ it.
>> Was Sciacca overseeing the crews in that area?
No. He was just there playing ‘Safety Officer’.
He was still pretty much ‘clueless’ at this point… having only recently arrived in Yarnell, and he was still just ‘information gathering’. He still didn’t have all the right phone numbers yet.
At the very END of the video… what Sciacca is actually saying is…
“”I was tellin’ Bucky I’m like a moth ( to flame )”.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Also, at the 25 second mark there appears to be a third utility
>> trailer parked in the front of other two PNF trucks pulling
>> utility trailers. Who is that?
You are talking about the aquamarine pikcup truck with the driver’s side door open and the WHITE trailer attached, correct?
Still trying to verify that.
>> calvin also said
>>
>> WTK. Just curious if you have nailed down a time for this video?
Not yet. Stay tuned.
Correction for above…
The aquamarine pickup with the driver’s side door open and the WHITE trailer attached definitely belongs to Prescott off-the-radar hire Jason Clawson.
That’s the same pickup and WHITE trailer ( with UTV ) seen crossing the Panebaker camera up on Hayes Ranch Road from +5 seconds through +10 seconds in Air Study Video 20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.
The white pickup with the BLACK toolbox mounted in the bed behind the cab that is parked just in front of Sciacca’s truck is the one that hasn’t been identified yet in this M2U00262 video.
The point I made above is that there definitely IS something in front of these trucks.
And I thinks it’s the red UTV of the Three Prescotteers.
Marti.
I agree there is a trailer (and truck also) in front of the aqua colored truck. But I do not think it was the red UTV. It appears the red UTV was on the trailer in the back of the convoy (visible in M2U00264 and M2U00265), in the trailer with no tailgate.
And thanks for the compliments last night. I truly appreciate that. And I know it is hard to take a stand against Bob.
Now, back to work!
No problem you are allowed to disagree as far as I am concerned.
Elizabeth has thrown a lot of names out there that she says are actually
RTS.
So I am saying There’s a name out there that I think is her
I’ll stick with that for a while and see what floats.
And all the Thank you’s and niceties from Calvin still smells like Elizabeth..
CALVIN SAYS———-
THANKS FOR WHAT YOU DO WTK———-
THANKS FOR THE COMPLIMENTS MARTI————–
I REALLY HAD MORE HOPE FOR YOUR INVESTIGATIVE SKILLS——-
CALLIG OUT RTS AS= ARE YOU FRED——-
OR—-RTS YOUR A FUCKING LIER———-NOV 18 @ 7:39
You are telling me you are Elizabeth based on my past experience
with both of you. So I will take my real life skills and we shall see.
It is pretty simple Bob. Install facebook messenger to your facebook account and you will have a message from, CALVIN, me.. I am assuming you do not have messenger installed, or you would have already seen my message.
And it says….
“Hi.. I think you owe me a public apology. I am not Elizabeth and you are wrong.
How much more proof do you need, Bob? And no, I am not holding my breath for that apology.
And just for the sake of truthfulness. I only asked RTS if he is Fred Schoeffler. (seems appropriate as he had just presented his case of how he “knows” I am E, that required months of comparing posts, or something)) I didn’t call him that. But there are some pretty serious accusations that have been made about this Fred guy. With specific information about the fire name and the name of the crewman who has issues with this Fred. guy I am sure you have seen it Bob? Over at the yarhellhillfireblog?
This whole thing is kinda nuts… but here’s a stab at a little humor…
If there is even the SLIGHTEST chance that the person who posts as ‘Elizabeth’ is the same person who posts as “Calvin”…
Then can I make a request?
Can we please hear a LOT MORE from the poster known as ‘Calvin’ and a LOT LESS from the one known as ‘Elizabeth’?
LMFAO
First any thing on Facebook can be covered up.
If you think you deserve an apology then
lets see one for calling RTS a FUCKING LIER.
and if you are on Elizabeth’s blog and believe that crap then you again are ELIZABETH.
No one is allowed there to file a statement that disqualifies ELIZABETH’s LIES———-
And she still believes SR, FIRE 20+, and TTWARE are all RTS. at the last filing on her BLOG——–
OH by the way nothing on Face Book
My E-Mail is in a couple of chapters already posted
But then Calvin /Elizabeth already has that.
Haven’t seen any thing there yet either?????
Your Move
Check mate……………
Yep. That red utv is sitting in that trailer right there in 62. It just looks black.
I decided I needed to download these videos so I could maybe “see” them better. But JD doesn’t have them in Dropbox yet. He only has 12 of the 21 videos.
So I screensnapped the video in youtube and enhanced it in Lightroom. I see a big wheel connected to what looks like a red trailer on a longish axle. I can’t tell what, if anything, is in the trailer. There’s some vertical lines, but I find it hard to tell what they are. They don’t look, to me, aligned quite right to be a utv. But it’s really hard to tell. That’s why I first thought it was the red utv itself. I don’t know.
One more ‘detail’ about Hulburd video M2U00262.
Not only can we now be absolutely sure ‘Safety Officer” Tony Sciacca was wearing a WHITE Helmet that day… there is also a good-sized brown-leather ‘snap strap’ at the top of his shirt collar on his back apparently holding the ‘shirt top rollup’ in place.
It is seen most clearly at +9 seconds into M2U00262.
This should help identify Sciacca in those ‘Huddles’ in the Tom Story photos taken at the Ranch House Restaurant…. if he really was there and in any of those ‘huddles’.
Good luck. That white-helmeted guy with Musser in those photos is really really really TINY.
One more thing about Hulburd video M2U00264.
I think it’s basically CONFIRMED now that ‘Safety Officer’ Tony Sciacca never got any farther back on Shrine Road than exactly where we see him interacting with Prescott off-the-radar hires KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd there in that parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine.
Couple that with the CONFIRMATION that the FF seen speaking to Frisby back there in the Youth Camp in the Papich photo definitely had a YELLOW helmet on…
…and it’s safe to say that Tony Sciacca could NOT have been the person that Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon was mistaking for an ‘Incident Commander’ back there at the Youth Camp… and the one who ORDERED Bob Brandon to “get those vehicles out of here” and basically ABANDON those 6 firefighters who were still out at the west end of Harper Canyon.
So it really does look like that person who gave that ORDER to Bob Brandon and who supposedly said “Those men can’t run that fast” pretty much had to be Task Force 2 Leader (Trainee) Tyson Esquibel.
Elizabeth said
Nothing that can be identified, beyond either Tyson or Brian saying that they will get to the Cafe and go from there
She said this last night and it is in reference to video M2U00264 at app. the 2:08 mark.
Elizabeth, are you yourself uncertain about who makes the comment “yeah we’ll regroup at the cafe and send somebody in”?
calvin… despite the previous exchange about this down below… yes… it would appear the poster named ‘Elizabeth’ still actually thinks there is a chance that might be Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby talking there instead of Task Force 2 Leader ( Trainee ) Tyson Esquibel.
As I pointed out previously… forget the fact that the ‘call signs’ are clear in the audio portion… if anyone wants to hear what BR SUP Brian Frisby really sounds like when talking over the radio to SPGS1 Gary Cordes… just listen to the very START of the same M2U00264 video.
Totally different voice placement / signature than Tyson Esquibel.
Yep. Totally different voice.
Frisby actually sounds to me a bit like Eric, minus the slow drawl. But kinda the same pitch.
These videos are actually quite helpful in order to get familiar with what various people sound like.
I did listen to all the interviews. But people sound a bit different over radios than they sound in the interviews. So I was having trouble identifying voices in the videos. But I’m getting clearer about them now.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 30, 2014 at 9:05 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> These videos are actually quite helpful in order to get
>> familiar with what various people sound like.
Yes. They are.
Even when Hulburd was apparently ‘shooting from the hip’ and the camera was down by his side… it was apparently the same side of his body where his BK portable radio was clipped… so most of the audio captured from his BK radio is clear and strong.
It’s also the best contiguous recordings we now have of what SPGS 1 Gary Cordes really sounded like talking on the radio.
I have already gone back to the YARNELL-GAMBLE video seeing if a better match can be made between Gary Cordes’ voice and whoever that is in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video that *seems* to have been talking to DIVSA Eric Marsh and wondering what was taking Granite Mountain so long and was then ( at 4:27 PM ) urging them to ‘hurry up’.
More about that soon.
Calvin,
After several months now of comparing YOUR writing style and all with that of the one called ”Elizabeth” I feel fairly confident enough to finally allege/suggest that you, yourself are Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy.
And here just a few of the reasons why:
1) You both have VERY similar literary styles,
2) You both fecklessly apologize and/or grovel similarly when asking questions or after making an assertion, ,
3) You both both seem to post on the blog at or about the same times together,
4) You always are a VERY avid supporter of the one called ‘Elizabeth,’
5) You were NEVER included with all the others that were supposed to be RTS, and
6) Most times when someone FALSELY accuses another of something, then the accuser is usually guilty of what they accuse others of, i.e. posting under multiple pseudo names.
Based on my enumerated issues above, I am alleging that not only is the one called ‘Elizabeth’ also the one that occasionally posts as Logical Phallacy (which she has NEVER denied), but that she is also posting as YOU, Calvin, in order to, among other things, garner support for her usually unsupportable, bizarre assertions and accusations
Have you ever been diagnosed with having Multiple Personality Disorder? How about you Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy?
Have a nice day.
RTS.
1. I will state that I am not Elizabeth N.
2. Are you Fred Schoeffler?
3. Did you train Brendan Mcdonough?
BTW. No offense taken
Sounds like Elizabeth to me You been waiting to put that on again
Come on Calvin/Elizabeth Your playing a poor game that needs to stop.
I’m Bob Powers/Robert/Mr. Powers/ Robert F. Powers
On here I am Bob Powers.
If you want to play the name game with RTS I will consider you to be Elizabeth and will answer you in that format.
Brendan only worked on Granit Mountain and was trained by Marsh.
That following the 10 standard orders was Hill Billy and not modern fire fighters rules. Got 19 men in a bad place and that’s the story.
I’m glad you’re saying “no offense taken.”
My blood boiled a little on that one. I wasn’t feeling so generous, after all the confusing stuff we’ve patiently worked on together.
I’m so glad you are here!
Can we getz back to work pleeeeeeeze?
I would add… not a chance.
Calvin is a ‘steely eyed rocket man’.
There is NO WAY the person who posts here as ‘Elizabeth’ is even remotely capable of catching the things that the poster named ‘calvin’ has ( and continues to do ) in photos / videos / audio throughout this ongoing discussion.
WTKTT and Calvin,
Fair enough then since you vouched for him WTKTT. I’m not the only one that was thjinking that. I’m just the one that brought it up. I owe you an apology Calvin. I’m sorry I brought that forward.
And if I would have trained Brendan McDonough he would never have come up with his ridiculous statement about the #10 Fire Order being “hillbilly.”
Carry on being the ‘steely eyed rocket man.’.
Once again, I’m sorry I put that out there Calvin.
I need to add that I have no earthly idea who Calvin REALLY is. Certainly never met him. My comment was based solely on what I can perceive from what is posted here on this forum.
There is NO WAY that a man who can spot that original GPS Unit just ‘hiding in plain sight’ on Robert Caldwell’s pack strap ( and all the other things calvin has spotted with his ‘steel eyes’ ) could be the same (continually confused) poster using the name ‘Elizabeth’.
SIDENOTE: I’d still love to know what happened to Robert Caldwell’s GPS unit.
Amen.
And the three others they “always” had.
And remember how Calvin helped straighten out those Chris MacKenzie photos by observing how Duford was putting his glove (or something) somewhere? I don’t even remember exactly what it was, but it was key in wresting those photos into order.
And I don’t care who Calvin is in real life at all, either.
I’m just glad he’s continued to keep being here.
WTKTT Be careful where you lay your bets and check the past 9 Chapters before you lay down your cards.
You may get a surprise.
And I am not apologizing, I am calling the bluff.
Not interested in Elizabeth/Calvin and there Questions.
When one attacks the other follows then Elizabeth dose not feel alone she justifies her self???????
I would also add WTKTT who on here calls RTS Fred
Calvin just asked none of the rest of us care or even ask
Strange but true?????????????
Bob. I can promise you that I am not Elizabeth. I really had more hope for your investigative skills. But whatever, lol.
Elizabeth you slay me and my skills are screaming ELIZABETH
Nice try but more fodder.
I’ve never seen Calvin attack anybody.
What are you talking about?
What, exactly, have I been missing?
Check the bottom of this chapter out of no where Calvin comes unglued…….
And I totally totally totally agree!
I’ve spent way too many days and hours and weeks mutually respectfully picking things apart and putting them back together and using our disagreements to finally figure things out together to have anything but total respect for Calvin.
I totally totally totally totally totally disagree.
I’ve worked with Calvin A WHOLE LOT on identifying photos, and stuff happening in photos, and really difficult timelines carefully pieced together from photos, and thorny questions (like whatever happened with the DOZER) and Calvin has ALWAYS been rock solid in his perceptions and questions. I’ve ALWAYS found him a complete pleasure to work with.
I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER confused Calvin’s “voice” with Elizabeth’s.
I totally totally totally totally totally disagree.
I’ve worked with Calvin A WHOLE LOT on identifying photos, and stuff happening in photos, and really difficult timelines carefully pieced together from photos, and thorny questions (like whatever happened with the DOZER) and Calvin has ALWAYS been rock solid in his perceptions and questions. I’ve ALWAYS found him a complete pleasure to work with.
I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER confused Calvin’s “voice” with Elizabeth’s.
Marti— Its My Take you can like it or not, No Voice here just written statements
and the beginning of this chapter the attack by Calvin on RTS sealed my
belief its ELIZABETH. Doing her game playing .
Never ever had Calvin sign off lol……OR—-
” I really had more hope for your investigative skills” Really Elizabeth ?????
Its her game jump in with both feet –Or don’t play???????????
WTKTT,
WantsToKnowTheTruth said on November 28, 2014 at 9:26 pm
“So ( correct me if I am wrong ) you are saying you don’t think there is ANYTHING strange about them working all morning WITHOUT a ( for lack of a better term ) ‘downfield’ LOOKOUT… and it somehow ONLY became important to even think about posting one sometime during a face-to-face meeting with another IHC Supervisor and HIS Captain?’
First please clarify what you mean by a ‘downfield LOOKOUT. because Brendan was in a sense a ‘downfield lookout’ all day until he had to leave his site because of hitting his trigger point.
“Personally… I still think there’s something a little ‘funky’ there that we don’t have all the answers on. … Example: We still cannot be sure WHO is the person who ACTUALLY decided, all of a sudden ( between 11:55 AM and 12:25 PM ) that a ‘downfield lookout’ was needed at all when there had been no move to do anything of the sort for the hours of work prior to that time. We still don’t know if that was totally Marsh’s ‘plan’ or ‘idea’ at that time… or if this just came out his conversations with Blue Ridge SUP Brian Frisby and BR CAP Trueheart Brown.”
Not quite sure what you’re referring to above. NORMALLY, the Crew Supervisor would decode where the lookout(s) would be posted. The DIVS will sometimes SUGGEST a location but ultimately it’s up to the crew supervisors.
“I’m actually still not even sure Brendan would really know the answer to that. … We KNOW that at some point… Steed or Marsh turned to Brendan and said…. Hey Donut… grab your shit… you’re gonna go down with these guys and be a lookout on that mound down there …but we still don’t know how involved McDonough was in the ACTUAL conversation(s) that Marsh / Steed / Frisby / Brown were having.”
I kinda think Brendan would know thew answer to that question. And we can SURMISE or SPECULATE that Steed and marsh commented and/or directed him to be the GMHS lookout and where he was to be located. I kinda doubt that Frisby and Brown (BRHS) had much input in that conversation. But Marsh and Steed certainly should/would have involved Brendan in some detail in the entire GMHS lookout post conversation.
Once again,the entire GMHS Crew had the BEST lookout post of anyone on the ENTIRE YH Fire. Once the GMHS abandoned their underslung line and Brendan abandoned his ‘downfield lookout’ site, there was NO need to have any other lookout site other than what they had from their perfectly good SZ.
The GMHS also had the BEST SZ of anyone else on the fire. Everyone else was surrounded by unburned fuels, numerous spot fires , structures burning, propane tanks blowing up, citizen panic, traffic congestion, and so much more.
Reply to Robert the Second post on November 29, 2014 at 8:56 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> ( Insert ‘downfield lookout’ comment from above )
>>
>> Please clarify what you mean by a ‘downfield LOOKOUT.
>> because Brendan was in a sense a ‘downfield lookout’ all day until
>> he had to leave his site because of hitting his trigger point.
Huh? You just made it clear that you did ‘understand’ what I meant.
The second part of your sentence above is exactly what I meant.
I was just ( for lack of a better phrase ) calling that ‘mound’ where they established Brendan as a lookout circa 12:30 PM as a ‘downfield lookout’ position. It was ‘down’ from them and (if you will) a litlle ‘upfield’ ( north ) of their actual work location.
The SECOND part of what I said was actually the important part…
“and it somehow ONLY became important to even think about posting one sometime during a face-to-face meeting with another IHC Supervisor and HIS Captain?”
I can clarify that as well, though ( I think )…
What I meant was that they had all morning to send a lookout ‘down’ to that small mound where Brendan ended up at 12:30 PM… but they (for some reason) only felt it important to do that DURING a meeting with another IHC Superintendent and his Captain sometime between their face-to-face from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> ( Insert the “…something a little funky” comment from above )
>>
>> Not quite sure what you’re referring to above. NORMALLY, the Crew
>> Supervisor would decode where the lookout(s) would be posted.
>> The DIVS will sometimes SUGGEST a location but ultimately it’s
>> up to the crew supervisors.
There were a lot of things that were not ‘normal’ that day… and I’m just saying that this decison to post the lookout sometime between 11:55 AM and 12:25 PM might be just one more ‘funky’ thing that happened that day.
What you just said above is that you believe even if DIVSA Eric Marsh was standing right next to temporary GMIHC SUP Jesse Steed… that Marsh would have been letting Steed make ALL the decisions about when and where to post a lookout…. even with BR SUP Frisby and BR CAP Brown also standing right there as well?
I suppose that’s possible… but I think you were missing my original point.
We still do NOT KNOW exactly how this decision to put Brendan down on that mound actually went down that day… such as WHO really made the decision… or WHY.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Insert comment from above about whether Brendan ‘knows the whole story’.
>>
>> I kinda think Brendan would know thew answer to that question. And we
>> can SURMISE or SPECULATE that Steed and marsh commented and/or
>> directed him to be the GMHS lookout and where he was to be located.
>> I kinda doubt that Frisby and Brown (BRHS) had much input in that
>> conversation. But Marsh and Steed certainly should/would have
>> involved Brendan in some detail in the entire GMHS lookout post
>> conversation.
Well… maybe. Maybe not.
Example: If Marsh and Steed really were thinking that Brendan was ‘fading in the heat’ and the ACTUAL plan was to just get him off the workline and give him something ‘easy’ to do without the men having to see him sitting around near them… then I have a feeling they would NOT have actually told Brendan that is the REAL reason why they were ‘assigning’ him that LOOKOUT job for the rest of the afternoon.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Once again,the entire GMHS Crew had the BEST lookout post of
>> anyone on the ENTIRE YH Fire.
Agreed.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Once the GMHS abandoned their underslung line and Brendan abandoned
>> his ‘downfield lookout’ site, there was NO need to have any other lookout
>> site other than what they had from their perfectly good SZ.
Also agreed… UNTIL they decided to LEAVE that perfectly good SZ.
They could also have been ( and SHOULD have been ) acting as their own lookouts for pretty much the whole walk south to the saddle and the eventual ‘Descent Point’. The photographic panoramas that exist in the photo record prove that.
They were by no means ‘blind’ to what was happening out there for that entire first leg of their journey south to the saddle.
But the moment they decided to drop down off that two-track and ‘bushwhack’… they needed another LOOKOUT very, very badly. It was a CLASSIC case of ‘needing one’.
They were descending into a ‘blind box canyon’ less than a mile from a dynamically changing, highly wind driven ‘fingered’ fireline in some of the most volatile, explosive fuels imaginable and they were going to be unaware of what the fire was doing for an extended period of time.
They should have had a lookout THEN. No question.
And ( apparently ) the actual Central Arizona Wildland Response Team AGREES.
Marti came across the Facebook page for the CAWRT while researching Yuma related information.
It’s an interesting Facebook page and it is HERE…
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Central-Arizona-Wildland-Response-Team-CAWRT/201969799880168
It also has some pretty interesting ‘posts’ on it, as well.
Scroll down and look at what was posted there on June 30, 2014, on the day of the one year anniversary of the Yarnell Fire where (supposedly) ‘No one did anything wrong” and there were (supposedly) no LCES violations…
———————————————
Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT)
June 30 · Edited
As we are sure most of you have, please put the families and loved one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots in your thoughts and prayers.
At this time last year, several CAWRT crews were a part of the firefighting efforts at Yarnell Hill and still remember the tragedy as if it was yesterday. Take the time to share with your crews the new LCANS procedures as well as reviewing the 10 and 18 and LCES.
———————————————
So according to even the CAWRT… “no one did anything wrong” a year ago… but PLEASE make SURE you ALL take the time to review LCANS, 10+18 and LCES…
L = Lookouts
C = Coummunications
E = Escape Routes
S = Safety Zones
The life you save might be your own.
WTKTT,
WTKTT said “We still do NOT KNOW exactly how this decision to put Brendan down on that mound actually went down that day… such as WHO really made the decision… or WHY.”
Thanks for pointing out AGAIN that the BRHS overhead had to have a discussion with the GMHS overhead to post a lookout below in the ‘downfield’ area. That is EACH Crew supervisor’s responsibility to do that, not another Crew supervisor. If that is the case where the GMHS did NOT have a lookout that time of day, then to me that suggests, once again, Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes by the GMHS overhead. I have seen video and cell phone video clips of 30 June fire behavior at 0900 AM with BLACK SMOKE and 1030 AM FLAME LENGTHS of 50 feet to 75 feet! These are BOTH VERY SIGNIFICANT INDICATORS OF FIRE BEHAVIOR. Anyone with any wildfire savy would know that the day ahead could, should, and would be VERY ACTIVE TO EXTREME FIRE BEHAVIOR for the day to come. Fire Order #3 re: Current and EXPECTED fire behavior.
And to the point of NO LOOKOUT once they left their perfectly good SZ and/or bailed off the midslope road, I have said many times before, they REALLY MESSED UP by violating LCES and Fire Order # 5. This also suggests to me Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
I have said any number of times that I believe it is *possible* that something akin to the following actually transpired during that face-to-face…
Frisby or Brown: Where is your lookout?
Marsh or Steed: We don’t have one.
Frisby or Brown: You’re SUPPOSED to have one.
Like I’ve said many times – Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes. And a HS Crew supervisor should NOT have to be told, ESPECIALLY by another HS Crew supervisor, to post a REQUIRED lookout.
If it really went down that way… I actually doubt Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby OR Captain Trueheart Brown were all ‘in their face about it’.
They both seem to have more ‘class’ and ‘diplomacy’ than to get all didactic with co-workers.
If it happened at all… it was probably just more like…
Frisby or Brown: I think it would be a good idea if you posted a lookout down there… given the conditions today.
WTKTT,
Notwithstanding the BRHS diplomacy,neither they or any IHC should have to be reminded that, especially given the EARLY radical fire behavior witnessed by all that day AND the previous week’s Doce Fire. An experienced IHC just doesn’t forget to post a lookout, ever.
So once again – a CLEAR indication of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes on the part of the GMHS overhead.
The ‘Nevada’ incident that was being talked about to the ‘job interview’ committee when Caldwell, MacKenzie, Turbyfill and Ashcraft were ‘interviewing’ in March 2013 to be Philip Maldonado’s replacement as GM ‘Squad boss’ actually indicates the problem that arose might have been because they had no LOOKOUT that day, either.
There was line building involved… then drainages… then a fire ‘cresting a ridge’ in less than 60 seconds… then there was RUNNING involved and then, ultimately, some kind of ‘burn out the safety zone’ with Caldwell just being glad it (quote) “all worked out OK in the end”.
We still need to know more about that Nevada incident… and whether Darrell Willis could lay his hands on some ‘Unit Logs’ or AARs ( After Action Reports ) as easily as he was able to find Eric Marsh’s Unit Log for the Payson ‘demob’ incident and give that to ADOSH.
WTKTT,
Regarding the “Nevada Incident” where “because they had no LOOKOUT that day, either. There was line building involved… then drainages… then a fire ‘cresting a ridge’ in less than 60 seconds… then there was RUNNING involved and then, ultimately, some kind of ‘burn out the safety zone’ with just being glad it (quote) “all worked out OK in the end” that it all worked out in the end”.
The ONLY reasons they had to run once the fire crested the ridge so quickly and unexpectedly was because they had NO LOOKOUT and they failerd to heed F/O # 3 regarding EXPECTED FIRE BEHAVIOR!
Nevada cheat grass and sage brush are among the most EXTREMELY flashy, volatile, and VERY FAST and a very high Energy Release Component (ERC) fuels in the United States. Just check out the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned site and search under the Incident Review Database for NV burnovers, entrapments, and shelter deployments.
Clearly the ‘Nevada Incident was just one more instance in a “long chain of Bad Decision With Prior Good Outcomes” for the GMHS.
Rts- try and see if my cell will post this…Donut’s lookout spot gave him the best vieq if the skunked fires …vieq equals view…because that was a dense brush area and it was coming ddown that way and. it would be a blind dpot for the crew he could wqtch and you could see some. peeples svalley spotted areas too. sorry for typos …Donut was in best spot below as long as his way out was not jeapordized and donut if you arw reading this please let us know how besides. the obvious mediaa accounts. how u became a lookout as bad as we saw u that morning ??
Joy,
AGREED. Brendan’s initial lookout site on the rocky mound below, near the grader, was a very good lookout site ONLY for when the GMHS was building underslung fireline below the ridgetop because that area could NOT be adequately seen from the ridgetop where the GMHS were in their perfectly good SZ.
Underslung fireline is fireline BELOW the fire, usually requiring some sort of cup trench underneath it.
Rts—
Number one I agree that Donut ‘s job there was done after what we learnedffrom wayne neill on our hike which is so cool to hear wayne’saacceny on underslung fireline. when we saw whhere donut qas that day and wayneeeexplexplained it i fwlt he qas in danger even if he had good eyr on fire because at 12:14pmwwe saw the whole harper canyon area and that hill be taken over and even one hour llater it turned back to donut so yeah i agree he should of.moved a lot sooner…who. knows. maybe that tree ahade settled him inbut I felt he should of reloacted positioneespeespecially if the men were dropping down the canyon vs went our way.
now for your en comment ..i am going?to pull up old emails i have of en and calvin and see …get back to u on that…answer a lot of postings better on pc..cel says low space and to type one wrod takes about ine minute hence why i don’t fix typos this weekend
Thanks to both of you for this clarification.
I had often found myself wondering what would be the usefulness of that lookout spot.
But, since I’m not familiar with the overall terrain or the lookout protocols, I couldn’t get “really sure.”
At exactly the time that GM was about to be entrapped, Gary Cordes was asking for an engine to be sent to the Boulder Springs Ranch. There has been some discussion about WHY an engine would have been sent to the BSR. Below is a cut-and-paste from Bob Powers on the topic from months ago:
Bob Powers says APRIL 10, 2014 AT 1:51 PM
….. Also again I do not under stand why a Engine was not stationed at the Ranch which would be common practice. unless the overhead felt it was unsafe to hang an engine out there. What was the Pumpkin for? Extra water for house protection?…
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 29, 2014 at 3:13 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> At exactly the time that GM was about to be entrapped, Gary Cordes was
>> asking for an engine to be sent to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Yes. He was asking his Task Force 2 Leader ( Trainee ) Tyson Esquibel to
take care of that… and he was telling Esquibel to tell whoever he sent there
to be SURE and ‘Watch’ for ‘Granite Mountain’ ( to arrive there )… and then
make sure EVERYONE ‘gets out safely’ ( Engine included ).
He was NOT asking Esquibel to ‘stage’ an engine there.
He was asking Esquibel to send one there to ‘Watch’ for GM… then GET OUT.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ trigger point that he told ADOSH investigators he was calling “Aw SHIT ridge’ that day had ALREADY been met… and the ONLY designated ‘Safety Zone’ for his resources at THAT crucial point was the Ranch House Restaurant on Highway 89.
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ own ADOSH interview.
Here is where he is telling the ADOSH investigators about his “Aw SHIT ridge” trigger point and that the moment that puppy was hit… the ONLY acceptable ‘Safety Zone’ for his resources was the Ranch House Restaurant on Highway 89…
—————————————————
835 The next little ridge was to make sure my guys were evacuating and then the,
836 the main, the main ridge line just north of town there with the 6225 elevation
837 on it, um, peak there, or 52, whatever it is, um, that was my, what I called aw
838 shit ridge, which was that’s when we knew it was hitting town and I needed to
839 make sure EVERYBODY was up in our, in our uh, SAFETY ZONE up at the RESTAURANT.
—————————————————
SPGS1 Gary Cordes had NO intentions of STAGING any Engines out at the Boulder Springs Ranch once the ‘Aw SHIT Ridge’ trigger point had been met.
There is actually MORE to that part of Gary Cordes’ interview when they were discussing his ‘Aw SHIT Ridge’ trigger point and what his PLANS were at the point that trigger point was met.
The VERY NEXT paragraph from his interview after the one above confirms that once the ‘Aw SHIT Ridge’ trigger point was met and it was time to get ALL Firefighters AND Engines ‘off the fire’… the ONLY spot that Gary Cordes himself was considering to be ‘Safe enough’ was the Ranch House Restaurant…
From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
———————————————————-
841 Q2: Okay, which – try, try – describe that one again to me, ‘cause I’m still…
842
843 A: That safety…
844
845 Q2: …(unintelligible).
846
847 A: …zone was the Ranch Restaurant. It was called the Ranch Restaurant, it was
848 right on the highway. It was a, it was basically a staging area and it was the
849 most open area we had to consider a safe spot.
———————————————————————
From Gary Cordes’ own testimony…
“That SAFETY ZONE was the Ranch Restaurant. It was called the Ranch Restaurant, it was right on the highway. It was a, it was basically a staging area and it was the MOST OPEN AREA we had to consider a SAFE SPOT.”
So SPGS1 Gary Cordes definitely did NOT consider the “Boulder Springs Ranch” to be a SAFE SPOT for either his men, his engines or ANY of his resources, once his “Aw SHIT Ridge” trigger point had been met.
Makes you wonder WHY, then, he would have EVER told a Hotshot crew it was THEIR ‘pre-determined Safety Zone’ that morning… doesn’t it?
I don’t think my statement needs much clarification——
If they were going to protect the BSR then a Engine would be stationed there.
Evidently that was not the plan do to several problems—–
The need for Engines in town.
The location entrapping the Engine and crew if the Road in was compromised.
The Pumpkin was there only for as discussed bucket work with the Helicopter.
They did not have enough Engines to protect a ranch was already BOMB PROOF —-
Buy the time any thought of sending an Engine in to BSR it was to late
the Road was compromised.
Since the Overhead Team had no written Plan we are in a Questioning mod here as to why the Pumpkin was there in the first place??
Several reasons they could have put it there but no crew was assigned to it?????????
I think we discussed this whole thing to death a few days ago. Just. Scroll. Down.
I believe the poster named ‘Elizabeth’ is still going to try to do everything she can to establish that SPGS1 Gary Cordes was just trying to ‘stage’ an Engine at the Boulder Springs Ranch… even AFTER the “Aw SHIT Ridge” trigger point had been met and Cordes’ himself was trying to make sure ALL of his resources were ‘getting off the fire’ and assembling at the Ranch House Restaurant ( and not the Boulder Springs Ranch ).
The facts don’t support it… but that doesn’t mean she won’t keep trying.
Evidently Calvin was satisfied he never got back with us.
Also I said staging which met stationed all day at that location not sending in at the last minute.
Read what I said up above and go from there.
Exactly… telling someone to send an ‘engine in’ somewhere and then also CLEARLY telling them to ‘get out safely’ is NOT a ‘staging operation’.
It’s a ‘mission’ with a PURPOSE.
Fulfill the ‘mission’ and then get the hell out.
My impression is that Calvin never got a decent response to his inquiry below about the reason *WHY* Cordes would ever send an engine to the BSR. While WTKTT has repeatedly shared HIS view on this matter, Calvin (I think) countered by asking if WTKTT actually thought that the 19 GM were going to hitch a ride on the engine that Cordes was sending. Presumably not – an engine does not seat 19. So WHY would Cordes send the engine to the BSR? Well, Bob Powers seems to have opined on that topic back in April.
I do not agree with WTKTT’s guess about what he is hearing in the videos regarding Cordes asking for the engine, and, as Rocksteady has confirmed, WTKTT’s transcripts have been off before.
Hence my raising the issue again. It matters, it is relevant, and I think it gives useful insight regarding both the fire behavior and the human factors concerns.
So if you do not agree with what WTKTT is hearing, what are YOU hearing?
Nothing that can be identified, beyond either Tyson or Brian saying that they will get to the Cafe and go from there.
I don’t think Cordes actually says anything more about what he wants from Tyson on that video.
If Cordes wanted an engine at the BSR, I think Bob Powers was probably right on the money about why that was. (My impression – and I could be totally wrong, of course – is that nobody thought the fire was going as far south as it actually did. But this is just an “aside” on my part, so no sense in grilling me on it.)
Marti, I hope your daughter had a nice Friendsgiving meal!
She smoked a turkey, for the first time ever. And she’s a vegarian.
And the turkey turned out……..perfect.
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 29, 2014 at 6:54 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> Nothing that can be identified, beyond either Tyson
>> or Brian saying that they will get to the Cafe and go
>> from there. I don’t think Cordes actually says anything
>> more about what he wants from Tyson on that video.
This is actually a very ‘welcome change’… you actually ANSWERING questions that other people ask of YOU… and in a timely manner.
I also think it’s a GOOD thing to return to talking about all these VERY important (21) videos that were recently released. I don’t feel like they have been talked about near enough yet.
So let’s take this in ‘baby steps’ for a moment with regards to Hulburd video M2U00264.
Forget ANYTHING about what may or may not have been ‘published’ so far ( by anyone ) as a possible ‘transcript’.
Are you SERIOUSLY saying that you CANNOT hear SPGS1 Gary Cordes saying just the two words “Granite Mountain’ at exactly + 1 minute and 57.651 seconds into video M2U00264… right in the middle of what Cordes was telling Esquibel he wanted him to do?
This is not an ‘interpretation’ test.
It’s a simple HEARING test.
If you really, truly can’t hear at least that… and you cannot seem to bring yourself to trust other people who have better hearing than you do… then this particular topic thread isn’t going anywhere at all.
WTKTT, thank you for giving up calling me “counselor.” I am grateful. Just referring to me as “E” is fine. That’s what my friends call me in e-mails and texts – “E.” 🙂
In response, therefore, I am happy to answer your question. You asked me a question regarding what I heard at 1.56mins into the video, so I went back to the video, put on my headphones, and cranked up the volume (which I hate doing because it seems to me that cranking volume WHILE wearing headphone could likely hurt my hearing, no? I’m serious – is that honestly safe??).
Only after you made the suggestion that I should be hearing Cordes say “Granite Mountain” did I actually hear something that MIGHT be Cordes saying “Granite Mountain,” but the fact that I only heard it after you suggested it makes me worry that I am only hearing it because you suggested it (the power of suggestion and all that….). But I certainly could not (at this point, anyway) understand or hear anything in the background along with that….
That said, if Gary was saying “Granite Mountain,” presumably that would make sense, right? Meaning, Bob Powers had apparently indicated for months that his view was that there should have been an engine staged at the Boulder Springs Ranch… and now we see that Gary Cordes was trying to do exactly that, with “Granite Mountain” perhaps re-staging out of that area also. (Conjecture at this point, obviously – I am just thinking out loud, while trying also to answer in good faith your question, as best I can, given that you also know, of course, that I have grave, grave reservations about “audio forensics,” which includes (in my view) cranking up the volume to a degree that is surely going to distort things (at least in my ears).) I hope I did an acceptable job of responding to your query, WTKTT. Please know that I tried, in good faith.
As this seems over kill I will restate.
Helms Ranch—
Buildings and a defendable space in a brush field.
Some times if Engines are available they will be stationed for protection.
This was not the case and I posted the reasons why the Overhead felt they should not leave an Engine there
It was evidently not considered a priority for protection.
It was not a staging area based on its location.
I hear “Granite Mountain” (just barely) but I really can’t hear what’s said around it.
But then, I’ve always said I’m not that good at hearing stuff under a bunch of noise on videos and I don’t have any software to modulate the sound on videos.
So I tend to stay out of these conversations. Given that my skillz are elsewhere, I’m best doing things I do well, not trying to do things I don’t do well.
Which also means I’ve kind of been waiting with baited breath for those WTKTT transcripts.
The transcriptions I have already posted for pretty much ALL of M2U00264 aren’t going to change.
The rest of the ‘audio’ surrounding the clearly heard ‘Granite Mountain’ words coming from Cordes is ( I believe ) as follows…
+1:55 ( 1635.18 / 4:35.18 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Have him involved with goin’ to get… um… Granite Mountain. Watch for him and make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out.
The only part of that M2U00264 audio track I’m still working on is that loud HUM followed by ‘voices in the static’ where Aaron Hulburd then immediately says…
“That gotta be Eric or Jesse”
and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell immediately says…
“Yea. That’s gotta be them.”
There IS conversation there in that STATIC and I am still trying to pull it to the forefront.
WTKTT said:
“SPGS1 Gary Cordes had NO intentions of STAGING any Engines out at the Boulder Springs Ranch once the ‘Aw SHIT Ridge’ trigger point had been met.”
My ears hear
CORDES: “Task Force 2–Cordes on our TAC”
ESQUIBEL: “Cordes–Task Force 2”
CORDES: “Can we have a couple engines HOLD in place, uh, at the Boulder Springs Ranch”
ESQUIBEL: “I’ll send one that way. Uh, we’re getting spots up here and (wind in background) then..
CORDES: at almost the same time yelling Frisby’s coming’ out… “if you have any problems get with, uh, Granite Mountain.” then conversation fades but continues.
ESQUIBEL: “Ya, I’m the last one come out right now. We’ll regroup at the cafe and then send somebody in.”
CORDES: “Sounds like a good plan.”
So if Cordes knew the fire front was turning S, he absolutely was asking resources to stage at BSR (Cordes knows the BSR is bomb proof), the resources he believed were already there. Asking 2 engines to HOLD in place at the BSR isn’t construed as staging them there too? Yes, it is. HOLD in place from doing what? Remember early on in Esquibel’s Unit Log he said Cordes asked him to send two engines to the BSR to meet with Structure Group 1, assess GM buggies and start triage in the area.” Now we all know the GMIHC buggies were not parked at the Helms, but did Cordes believe there were 2 engines staged there still?? In his back pocket for what I don’t know, and 2 engines for a bomb proof safety zone?
Cordes said he himself told resources to evacuate after the fire hit oh shit ridge! This is Frisby who we all know did this thanks to the extra helmet cam footage. Does anyone hear Cordes call Esquibel or Blue Ridge on TAC to evacuate? If Cordes did in fact call Blue Ridge and evac them then why the hell would Brian call Cordes and TELL HIM they were evacuating everyone? Doesn’t make sense.
Esquibel’s Unit Log:
1445— met w. St Group 2, plan to use TF2 resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mtn W of Shrine Rd… (often wonder if Esquibel meant Structure Group 1 here…)
WTKTT says:
“+1:55 ( 1635.18 / 4:35.18 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Have him involved with goin’ to get… um… Granite Mountain. Watch for him and make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out.”
Regardless of what one hears (we all know by now we hear different things) here from Cordes, this shows that he had no idea Esquibel was in the Shrine area. If Cordes is asking Esquibel to get with Granite Mountain or whatever, it seems odd and hesitant in Esquibel’s reply. “Ya I”m the last one come out right now. We’ll regroup at the cafe and then send somebody in.” And also Cordes believes GM is coming to the BSR using their escape route from this morning and his SAI when asked if he was surprised where GM was found he said NO. Why would he ask a resource in the Shrine to be on the lookout for Granite Mountain over near the Helms?
WTKTT said:
“Makes you wonder WHY, then, he would have EVER told a Hotshot crew it was THEIR ‘pre-determined Safety Zone’ that morning… doesn’t it?”
Yes, because it seems more and more that GMIHC was the only resource that was told about the Helms being a bomb proof safety zone. Why? Blue Ridge wasn’t told about it. Esquibel was told at 1015 the Cafe was his safety zone (Unit Log). Weird huh? Almost like there was some sort of a plan????
Reply to FIRE20+ post on
November 30, 2014 at 1:45 pm
First and foremost… a big THANK YOU to FIRE20+ for taking the time to do this. It’s about time someone else also put some good ears on this crucial exchange between Cordes and Esquibel… AND also took the time to post something in detail.
One pair of ears is never enough with stuff like this… no matter how good they are.
>> FIRE20+ said…
>> My ears hear
>> CORDES: “Can we have a couple
>> engines HOLD in place, uh, at the
>> Boulder Springs Ranch”
Obviously the ‘tricky’ part of this one line is the very beginning of it.
I DO believe the ‘inflection’ at the end goes UP just a bit so that there is no doubt this was a QUESTION from Cordes to Esquibel… but as you just showed… the critical part is whether the FIRST word of the sentence is “Can’ or “Do’.
I still believe I am hearing ‘Do’… but I can totally understand someone else thinking they hear ‘Can’. I really do.
In my original transcript of that section of M2U00264 I actually didn’t put any WORD on the start of that sentence at all since I wasn’t 100 percent sure myself what it was. Cordes totally ‘swallows’ that word and it’s hard to make it out.
‘Can’ or ‘Do’ actually DOES change the meaning of the entire sentence/question.
‘Do’ would be Cordes not remembering if there were any engines still out there or not.
‘Can’ would be Cordes already KNOWING they weren’t any engines out there but still wanted at least TWO to go in there at that time… and the request STILL had something to do with ‘Granite Mountain’.
>> FIRE20+ also wrote…
>>
>> ESQUIBEL: “I’ll send one that way.
>> Uh, we’re getting spots up here
>> and (wind in background) then..
If the first word of the previous sentence/question from Cordes was ‘Do’… then in order for this response from Esquibel to make perfect sense it would mean that even though Esquibel just heard Cordes just ‘asking’ if they were still out there… he ASSUMES Cordes is asking because he WANTS one out there and that’s why he says he will send ONE in ( but not TWO ).
If the first word of the previous sentence/question was ‘Can’… then Esquibel’s response actually makes even MORE sense. It bypasses any assumptions on Esquibel’s part.. Cordes was TELLING Esquibel to ‘send TWO’ and Esquibel replies “I’ll send ONE”.
Still a coin-toss… but I actually would be more inclined now, after reviewing this, to go with YOUR transcript for the start of that ‘question’ and say it probably was the word ‘Can’ and not ‘Do’.
>> FIRE20+ also said…
>>
>> CORDES: at almost the same time
>> yelling Frisby’s coming’ out…
That is definitely KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell yelling about ‘Frisby coming out’ there on top of that conversation that Cordes and Esquibel were having.
>> FIRE20+ also said…
>>
>> “if you have any problems get
>> with, uh, Granite Mountain.” then
>> conversation fades but continues.
Again… thank you.
You might be right about the ‘If you have (any) problems” versus “Have him involved”
The word ‘HAVE’ is definitely there… and I believe Cordes DOES still end that transmit ( after ‘Granite Mountain’ is clearly heard ) with “make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out.”
I am going to take another complete ‘ear look’ at this one.
That’s why I haven’t FULLY published complete transcripts for any of these videos yet. It’s always wise to put them aside after a first-pass and then go ‘listen again’.
Once again… thanks for taking the time to do this. I encourage others to do so as well.
We can already hear enough in this video to know that someone needs to go BACK and ask both Gary Cordes AND Tyson Esquibel what this ‘good plan’ was really all about and why ‘Granite Mountain’ is being mentioned at that moment and ‘part of the plan’.
They would know the FULL story.
By the way… the poster named ‘Super Pete’ is ALSO saying somewhere down below that he definitely hears ‘Granite Mountain’ in the middle of this ‘plan’ being discussed between Cordes and Esquibel… so I think it’s pretty much a given now that the words ‘Granite Mountain’ really ARE being spoken by Cordes here as he is telling Esquibel what he wants to have happen at that point.
>> FIRE20+ also wrote.
>>
>> Cordes believes GM is coming
>> to the BSR using their escape
>> route from this morning
Yes… and according to what Cordes told both the SAIT and ADOSH ( in two separate interviews ) it’s possible at this moment when he is talking to Esquibel and they are forming this ‘good plan’… Cordes might have believed that Granite Mountain had ALREADY ARRIVED out there at the BSR.
Cordes told ADOSH he knew all along that’s where they were headed. He even told the SAIT he ‘never had any doubts’ that’s where they were headed.
He also said he was sure they had (quote) “Plenty of time to get there” (endquote).
So Cordes really, truly might have thought GM was ALREADY THERE when he is now mentioning them ( by name ) in this conversation about Esquibel involving ‘Engines’ and the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’.
That possibility needs to remain factored in to figuring out what this ‘good plan’ is that Cordes and Esquibel were coming up with.
More later
Followup… forgot to mention up above…
>> FIRE20+ said…
>> My ears hear
>> CORDES: “Can we have a couple
>> engines HOLD in place, uh, at the
>> Boulder Springs Ranch”
FWIW… I believe that ‘HOLD in place’ part is actually definitely “Holdin’ in place”.
Subtle difference… but maybe important.
OK, I don’t normally do this. But I woke up early and didn’t have anything else to do. Listening to the beginning of this convo over and over and over.
I don’t hear Cordes saying ANYTHING before “We have…” And I’m not hearing an inflection at the end.
I hear “We have a couple of engines holdin’ in place at Boulder Springs Ranch.”
Then Tyson says “I’ll send one that way.”
This may not make sense. But I’m not trying to make sense. I’m just trying to hear. And that’s what I’m hearing.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
December 1, 2014 at 4:14 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I don’t hear Cordes saying ANYTHING
>> before “We have…” And I’m not
>> hearing an inflection at the end.
>>
>> I hear “We have a couple of
>> engines holdin’ in place at
>> Boulder Springs Ranch.”
>>
>> Then Tyson says “I’ll send one that way.”
>>
>> This may not make sense.
>> But I’m not trying to make sense.
>> I’m just trying to hear. And that’s
>> what I’m hearing.
Exactly. The ‘sense’ of it almost has to be ‘contextual’. Gar Cordes really does ‘swallow’ whatever that first word was… but somehow Esquibel knew what he had said and, hence, his answer.
This whole ‘first part’ of that conversation reminds me of a line from that famous play “The Rainmaker” when Jimmy says…
“You might not know what I am saying but you know damn well what I mean.”
So regardless of what Cordes ACTUALLY says there… the ‘you know damn well what I mean’ part is revealed by what Esquibel CLEARLY says in response.
What Esquibel definitely heard was…
“We need an engine to be at Boulder Springs Ranch”.
So Esquibel responded with…
“OK… I’ll send one there”.
Cordes did NOT disagree with this response and, indeed, did nothing but confirm that Esquibel heard correctly and eventually confirmed all this with “sounds like a good plan”.
So there is really only one takeaway here, even if we can never decipher that ‘first word’ of that statement from Cordes.
Cordes wanted there to be an engine out there at the BSR in this timeframe… but for some specific purpose that was related to ‘Granite Mountain’ since we can also hear Cordes including that in ‘the plan’ as he was speaking to Esquibel.
Esquibel understood… and said he would send an engine that way to fulfill ‘the plan’ as soon as he got down to the Ranch House Restaurant.
Tyson Esquibel specifically makes Unit Log notes about this ‘plan’ he agreed to with Cordes ( which somehow involved Granite Mountain ).
Gary Cordes, on the other hand, NEVER mentions this ‘good plan’ at all in his ADOSH interview.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
You have to wonder… why NOT?
And, tbh, it was ME who asked how an engine could have hauled out 19 firefighters. The only way that could have happened was if there was enough TIME to do that in a few trips.
Which would mean, if that’s what Cordes was thinking, he was still thinking Granite Mountain had a whole lot more TIME in their favor at that point. And he could have very well thought that. Because he actually, according to his interview, did think that.
This is a time on that fire when everything was happening at once, and nobody actually knew what ALL was happening. I don’t think Gary Cordes knew what was happening over there in the ridge area with that fire when he radio-ed Tyson Esquibel. Maybe he thought, at that time, that Granite Mountain still had time to get out via that route and it would be great if an engine (or two) could meet them there at Boulder Springs Ranch.
And we have no EVIDENCE that any engine was ever STAGED at the Boulder Springs Ranch that day.
Apparently, no-one thought there was any reason to stage an engine there. It was “bomb-proof” as opposed to all the other places that, on that woefully under-resourced fire, were “begging” for protection.
Even when Cordes was calling Esquibel, there was still no REASON to stage an ENGINE there. Boulder Springs Ranch was, essentially fire-proof. And the best place to send engines into Glen Illah was NOT Boulder Springs Ranch, it was from Highway 89, across from the Ranch House Restaurant. Which was where the engines that went into Glen Illah went in from.
Marti,
Regarding hauling and/or shuttling the GMHS, USUALLY what occurs is a vehicle will shuttle the DRIVERS back to where they were left or staged, e.g. their Supt truck and Crew vehicles. HS Crews haul/shuttle their WFF in their Crew Carriers, and rarely but sometimes in the back of pickup trucks.
Thanks Bob. That makes sense. Actually, I had been thinking that, maybe what Cordes was envisioning, would be something along those lines.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6517821/Phos-Chek-LC-95A-MSDS—PDF
The above link is extremely important to people who have been exposed to significant amounts of the fire retardant that looks like agent orange and was dispersed in copious amounts during the Yarnell Hill Fire. It is listed under the registered trade mark of PHOS-CHECK-LC95A, If you look at the 6 page document you will see there have been no studies on health effects and environmental impacts of the chemicals that are in this. We do know that it contains on the main 85% ammonia phosphate, a known chemical that produces ammonia gas that can have dire effects upon health–and as far as I can see, cumulative in nature-ie lung cell destruction, eye and mucus membrane cell destruction. Now the thing that bothers me is that when Joy and I left to the desert after residing over three months at the U STO IT storage, I told Joy we needed to get out of the Yarnell area carbon and soot pollution because my lungs were beginning to be compromised. We needed to get back into the fresh air of the desert below so we did. I had gone to emergency in Prescott VA several times due to these lung issues where I was given inhalers to help with my breathing–something still prescribed. Well I will be going back December 1, and there I will again see the doctor–nothing has improved. But, one thing, we do need to know what the other 8 % of that LC95A consists of. I will ask my VA doctor if she will request that information for us. I am sure hundreds of you in the firefighting profession will want to know what they are breathing on a regular basis. I will post that information if I legally can–we need to know this one!
Do you see that huge jet that dumped tons of retardant right behind Chuck Tidy’s place and Phil Snyder’s U-Stow-It business (both copter pilots but not on this fire I think). That protected Maugan Ranch Store and the Library and Senior Center as well as a few houses on the north end of Yarnell. Whew, we live in a chemical world but many are not aware of the dangers and how lightly these things are taken considering long term consequences. Something that can make dead zones in rivers and kill fish–what the hell can it do to humans. If I see dead birds lying around a pool in the desert, no matter how thirsty I am, I am going to find a way to distill that water before drinking it. Dead fish in a river and I won’t be eating fish from that river.
Now you firefighters that are knowledgeable about that huge jet that dumped tons of retardant that day of June 30, 2013, please inform us of how many tons they dropped. If you know the cost of that dump, that would be interesting as well.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post November 27, 2014 at 3:59 pm
First off… THANK YOU again to Joy for all of those recent ‘highly detailed’ posts.
There is a LOT of good information there.
Also THANKS AGAIN for the recently shared ‘photos’ and the additional help in nailing down the exact TIMES when they were taken. There really are some VERY IMPORTANT photos in the ones recently released.
I did have one question for you related to something you said down below…
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> On November 20th evening retired 2 years Yarnell Fire Dept
>> Volunteer Leonard Hunter who is not drawn to media accounts
>> saw us at the Yarnell library and its forbidden to speak publicly
>> about the fire OUT OF RESPECT for the ones who moved on.
“Its FORBIDDEN to speak publicly about the fire”.
FORBIDDEN by WHO?
Are you saying ‘only when in the Yarnell library’… or something?
Great questions.
BTW. Now that Joy has posted this.
I spent the better part of a week ago, up to just before I posted the photos Joy emailed me, trying to figure out what is meant by “the Yuma Crew,” I’m glad we can now discuss it, because I couldn’t reach a conclusion.
I told Joy I would call him, but I wanted to, for all our sakes, not do it until after this holiday weekend.
The Yuma Inmate Crew worked as part of Structure Protection Group 2 under Darrell Willis while trying to save Double A Bar Ranch. Then, somewhere between 1 and 1:30 PM, they decided to leave that operation and go back to the Incident Command Post. I don’t really know what they did after that, but I don’t think they were on the Model Creek Road Burnout.
So I went on a hunt for what could be the “Yuma Captain.”
I began by searching “J- Resource Orders.pdf.” The first, and only, thing I found that wasn’t related to the Yuma Inmate Crew was this, under the “E” Documentation:
“E-19 Request E-19 – Engine, Type 6 – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with ENGINE – T6 – AZ-A1S – LIC #G515EG – E-162 (2005 FORD F550 – YUMA) (AZ-ADC) by JESSE CAVE@AZ-ADC ROSS”
So then I found this:
“E-19 06/30/13 0429 PNT AZ-ADC (Dispatch)
800-309-7081
AZ-ADC 1 Engine, Type 6 06/30/13 0800 PNT YARNELL HILL AZ-ADC AZ-ADC 07/02/13 0839 PNT AZ-A1S
ENGINE – T6 – AZ-A1S – LIC #G515EG –
E-162 M 07/02/13 0839 PNT 07/02/13 0839 PNT
Travel Mode Financial Code AZ-A1S-130688”
There were three crewmembers dispatched, but only one named:
E-19.3 07/02/13 0839 PNT AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 800-309-7081
AZ-ADC 1 ENGINE BOSS (ENGB) 06/30/13 0800 PNT
YARNELL HILL AZ-ADC AZ-ADC 07/02/13 0839 PNT AZ-PHX
GONZALES, ARTHUR B (AZADC) M 07/02/13 0839 PNT 07/02/13 0839 PNT
The thing that stumped me was the ETD and ETA date–July 2.
But then the resource order for the Surprise Engine gives it that same ETD and ETA date, and it was clearly on the fire all day June 30, also assigned to Willis’s Structure Protection Group 2.
So, obviously, backfilled.
The rest I’m going to copy/paste from an email I wrote:
“Hey Sonny~
I’ve spent some time “looking around.”
There WAS an Engine from “Yuma” assigned to the fire. The Dispatch Log is a little confusing, and that’s why I missed it.
The Dispatch Log doesn’t say it’s from Yuma, but the documentation does.
The other problem with the dispatch log is that it says its ETD/ETA is July 2. But the dispatch log says that about the Surprise FD Engine, also, and the Surprise FD Engine is on the Yarnell Fire all day June 30.
So, I think there’s some “back-filling” confusion in the Dispatch Log.
So next.
The Yuma Engine that was dispatched was a Type 6 engine, one of the “little” ones that’s best for brush and bad roads and stuff.
Looking at Yuma Fire Department, I don’t think they have a Type 6 Engine. They do have a pretty experienced Wildland Fire Crew that’s fought some pretty big fires (they do Structure Protection on them) in Arizona and California, but they have a big honking Type 1 Engine.
There are two “Yuma” agencies that have type 6 engines.
One is the private (and controversial) company “Rural/Metro.” But I don’t think they regularly get dispatched to state fires. But I’m not sure.
The other is Fish and Wildlife. They do lots of stuff around Yuma. And their headquarters are in Yuma. And, if they had an engine dispatched to the fire, that may be why the Dispatch Order is so weird.
There is a photo, taken by somebody on a State Fire engine, on the Model Creek Road burnout. There is an engine in that photo that I hadn’t been able to identify. When I looked at some photos on Google of Fish and Wildlife engines, one looked just like that one in that photo.
So I’d love to know more about this guy’s story. If that engine in that photo is that type 6 engine in the Dispatch Log, that would fit.
Another problem is that nobody in their interviews or logs mentions that engine. But, from all I’ve seen, nobody has any kind of List of the vehicles that were involved in that really important burnout, which is really strange.
So, all this searching and finding is assuring me that what that guy is saying is probably true.
Do you have any more opportunity to talk with him? Can you find out exactly what “Yuma” engine/crew he is with?
This is really a blockbuster, what he’s saying. Although it doesn’t really contradict what Willis said. He said he didn’t hear the Mayday. But, as the narrative rests right now, he didn’t even KNOW about it until he talked with Todd Abel.
I still can’t find the pics. Can you re-send them? I would really love to see them. There are precious few images of that burnout.
Thanks for everything!
~Marti”
That’s pretty much where/when I paused my search regarding this.
The photos I am referencing are the ones I wrote about:
“Marti Reed says NOVEMBER 27, 2014 AT 4:56 PM
Joy. I just sent you the following email:
Joy~
I started to download the photos, but I’m getting a message that I have to have your permission to access the photos. I don’t understand this stuff, cuz I haven’t used google docs all that much.
So apparently, according to their message when I tried to access them, they are contacting you some way to confirm your permission for me to do that.
It’s weird, I didn’t have to do that before.
~ Marti”
The photo that I was referencing that might be showing this Engine is Lars Garcia’s 28.JPG, captured at 3:47:43 PM Sunday June 39 with an Apple iPhone 4S.
I would be extremely surprised if the Yuma Fire Department did not have a Type 6 Engine. Practically every fire department in the state of Arizona has Type 6’s, including large metro areas like Phoenix.
With Yuma’s proximity the Colorado River and the frequent tamarisk/salt cedar fires occurring in that riparian area, it would not surprise me at all if they had more than one 6.
What I wrote below:
“Yuma Fire Department is NOT LISTED on the “List of Other Employers on Yarnell Hill Fire.pdf.”
Also, according to the web document of the Yuma County Community Wildfire Protection Plan (CWPP) 2010, Yuma Fire Department. “Water Tender 5 (WT-5) is the only piece of apparatus that could be technically
considered wildland apparatus, but overall the department is extremely well equipped. All the
ladder trucks and engines are NIMS Type I.”
That may have changed since 2010, but I still don’t think they were the owners of the Type 6 engine.
They do have, as I wrote above, a very good wildland fire structure protection crew, but it uses a Type 1 engine.
But I think the fact that it’s not listed among the very long list of Fire Departments who were Employers on the Fire says pretty much that they weren’t there with a type 6 engine.
Ooops. Forgot to post the link to the Yuma County Community Wildfire Protection Plan (CWPP) 2010. It’s here:
http://www.co.yuma.az.us/home/showdocument?id=7728
It’s got all kinds of stuff included, including what BLM, FWS, and Rural/Metro have committed to the cooperative plan.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 29, 2014 at 8:13 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> BTW. Now that Joy has posted this.
Quick question. The ‘this’ that Joy posted and that I was asking the question about up above had something to do with a Yarnell HIll Fire Department person, the Yarnell library, and then something about it being “FORBIDDEN to discuss the fire in public”.
When you say “Now that Joy has posted this”… and then went on to explain about the YUMA crew… are you saying that this “FORBIDDEN to discuss the fire in public” gag order is know to extend to the YUMA crew as well as the Yarnell Fire Department personnel?
GREAT research on the YUMA crew… and I’ll have some more followup on that in a bit… but I was just trying to clarify if your reply really relates directly to the parent comment about people being “FORBIDDEN to discuss the fire’.
Yes. It’s that long long post that Joy double posted way way down below. Her pst was on NOVEMBER 27, 2014 AT 3:59 PM. In it she wrote:
“Leroy Anderson handed me on a pink paper on who I need to meet. Leonard looked at us and said he fought on that fire and so I enclosed some of his photos in this email too.
He worked as a hose and hot spot man over by Double A Ranch from Sunday to July 4th, 2013. He helped the Yuma firefighters. We shared has he heard the last communication where they said they were getting ready to deploy? and Leonard stated that was not their last communications. He said the radios were clear not static. He said the Yuma captain went up o Willis and said to Willis “did you hear that last call. Will said “No. I didn’t” Willis ran to his truck and grabbed a cell phone. Leonard Hunter heard what the Yuma guy and Leonard says one of the GMHS was on the radio saying “We’re taking shelter.” again “We’re taking shelter.” and again “We’re taking shelter now.” 2-4 seconds later panicky voice “we’re covering up.” and again “we’re covering up.” and that was that. We spent from 3:45-9:45 listening to his account so there is more but dabbled on topic of WHO AND HOW God orchestrates LIFE to me.”
Since the Yuma DOC crew was not on the Model Creek Road burnout, he’s talking about a DIFFERENT “Yuma” crew, and I think it’s most likely that “Yuma” Engine.
Which I’ve also decided could be a BLM Engine. They have a huge presence around Yuma, and they had two engines (that aren’t listed in the Resource Orders) working with Willis SPG2.
Also, I discovered that USFWS is listed as an “Employer” on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Yuma Fire Department is NOT LISTED on the “List of Other Employers on Yarnell Hill Fire.pdf.”
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 29, 2014 at 1:54 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Since the Yuma DOC crew was not on the Model Creek
>> Road burnout, he’s talking about a DIFFERENT “Yuma”
>> crew, and I think it’s most likely that “Yuma” Engine.
Well… this isn’t going to help identify this mysterious ‘other Yuma crew’ you are now talking about… but as far as that description of what happened up there on Model Creek Road with Willis… Darrell Willis’ own Unit Log says it happened differently.
Willis’ own Unit Log says he DID hear the ‘deployment radio traffic’ in real time and no one had to ‘tell him about it’.
I’m talking about this part of the ‘quotes’ up above…
——————————————–
“Leroy Anderson handed me on a pink paper on who I need to meet. Leonard looked at us and said he fought on that fire and so I enclosed some of his photos in this email too.
He worked as a hose and hot spot man over by Double A Ranch from Sunday to July 4th, 2013. He helped the Yuma firefighters. We shared has he heard the last communication where they said they were getting ready to deploy? and Leonard stated that was not their last communications. He said the radios were clear not static. He said the Yuma captain went up to Willis and said to Willis “did you hear that last call. Will said “No. I didn’t” Willis ran to his truck and grabbed a cell phone.
————————————————
I’m still not sure from this account whether it’s trying to say it was Leroy Andersen saying the ‘Yuma captain went up to Willis’ or whether it’s this guy ‘Leonard’ who was recounting that. That text is a little hard to ‘parse’…
…but either way… that’s NOT how Willis says he heard about the ‘deployment’. Willis’ own Unit Log says he heard that in real time over the radio.
From Darrell Willis full ( typed ) Unit Log that was part of
that document full logs that wasn’t released until February, 2014.
In the morning…
————————————————————-
0600 ( 6:00 AM )
(At) ICP at Peeples Valley School, resources showing up. Fire laying down no flames visible, just smoke.
0700 ( 7:00 AM )
Added Yuma DOC crew to Double Bar A Ranch, plan is to prep a two track road around structures and then burn out around the road when the time is appropriate.
1030 ( 10:30 AM )
Additional Resources assigned, Structure trailer deployed to Double Bar Ranch. TFLD Foster and Moser Arrived. Foster assigned to Model Creek, Moser to Double Bar A Ranch.
———————————————————
Later in the afternoon…
————————————————————-
1515 ( 3:15 PM )
Discussed tactics with Operations Musser about firing south of Model Creek road to protect south. Approval Granted assigned Ranch resources to begin firing from the Intersection of Double Bar A ranch West along Model Creek Road.Several slop overs occurred but were picked up.
1600 ( 4:00 PM )
TF#1 requesting resources to conduct firing operations with Operations in Model Creek Subdivion. E-58 assigned due to their experience level.
1630 ( 4:30 PM )
Firing completed to top of hill towards Model Creek. Fire behavior is moderating.
1640 ( 4:40 PM )
Heard radio conversation about deployment.
1647 ( 4:47 PM )
Operations Able calls me on my cell phone and asks if I heard what is going on, he told me what he knew.
1655 ( 4:55 PM )
I called TF Moser and Informed him that I wanted him to take the Division, to hold the fire with the resources on Model Creek Road and pick up and slop overs.
1715 ( 5:15 PM )
I responded to Yarnell and tied in with Operations Able and monitored radio traffic on Incident within an incident.
1745 ( 5:45 PM )
Tied in with GMIHC lookout McDonough to determine his welfare.
1849 ( 6:49 PM )
Heard radio confirmation that 19 GMIHC members had perished.
2000 ( 8:00 PM )
Determined I would work my way in with a number of other friends to guard and protect the scene until investigation was complete in the morning.
——————————————————————
This is where Willis SAYS he seems to have heard the ‘deployment radio traffic’ in real time that day…
1640 ( 4:40 PM )
Heard radio conversation about deployment
This is where he says OPS1 Todd Abel called HIM on his cellphone.
That is incorrect. It was Willis who called Todd Abel.
1647 ( 4:47 PM )
Operations Able calls me on my cell phone and asks if I heard what is going on, he told me what he knew.
From OPS1 Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview…
———————————————
NOTE: Abel seems to confirm what Willis’ cellphone records indicate, that it was Willis who called Abel ( and not the other way around ), but Abel then also seems to be saying that despite Willis’ own Unit Log saying Willis ‘heard the radio conversation about deployment’… Willis seemed to tell Abel he had NOT heard anything about a ‘deployment’ when he called Abel’s cellphone…
———————————————
Q1 = Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
A = OPS1 Todd Abel
———————————————-
Q1: Okay that seems to be – okay. All right. Uh, structures are burning in Yarnell, heavy smoke, fire crosses 89, propane tanks exploding, all-out search began for Granite Mountain, that’s the next entry.
A: All right. Uh, I’m gonna – let me, uh – I’ll – let me back up a little bit with you guys just to make sure we got the full picture here.
Q1: Please.
A: So I’m still upon this north end when all this happens down here. Um, we had the wind – the wind had shifted, structures weren’t threatened anymore. Um, I – about the time this happens, Darrell Willis calls me and – just to update me on how they were doing over there. I say are you copying this on air on to ground? And he says no. I said Granite Mountain just deployed. And he’s like well okay. You know and we hung up the phone – uh, it was either phone or radio, I can’t remember, ‘cause I had talked to him a couple of times on the phone.
———————————————
** RE: LEROY ANDERSEN
By the way… regarding YFD Firefighter Leroy Andersen…
He is the one who said in an interview with media outlet KPHO ( CBS Channel 5, Arizona ) that he and some other YFD FFs could have put that fire out on FRIDAY when it was, in his words, “No bigger than a Buick”, but they were ‘called off’ and told not to bother.
The original KPHO ( CBS Channel 5 ) interview with YFD FF Leroy Andersen…
Firefighter: We could have put out Yarnell Hill Fire on Day One
Posted: Feb 26, 2014 9:20 PM CST
Updated: Apr 08, 2014 5:14 PM CDT
http://www.kpho.com/story/24835120/firefighter-we-could-have-put-out-yarnell-hill-fire-on-day-one
From the article…
—————————————-
PHOENIX (CBS5)
A former Yarnell volunteer firefighter said it was possible to put out the deadliest wildfire in more than three decades, when it was still just a wisp of smoke.
“We could have driven up part of the way and walked the rest of the way with shovels and a bucket of water in our hands,” said LeRoy Anderson, who was a volunteer firefighter with the Yarnell Fire Department on June 28. That was the day a lightning strike started the Yarnell Hill Fire.
“The fire, for basically the whole night, was the size of a Buick. It wasn’t very big at all,” said Anderson.
Anderson told CBS 5 Investigates he did not see an urgency to put out the flames, on the part of the Yarnell Fire Department.
“There were convenient reasons not to go. Let’s put it that way,” said Anderson.
—————————————-
Yeah, I’ve had all that confusion about Willis hearing/not hearing about the deployment in my head as I’ve been working my way through it.
What Leonard is saying could be the clue to HOW Willis heard what he heard.
You wrote, “I’m still not sure from this account whether it’s trying to say it was Leroy Andersen saying the ‘Yuma captain went up to Willis’ or whether it’s this guy ‘Leonard’ who was recounting that. That text is a little hard to ‘parse’…”
I think Leroy is just in this story becuz he told Joy to hook up with Leonard. I think Leonard is the one who was up there on Model Creek Road and saw/heard all of this happen.
And I have yet to figure out what crew/engine/whatever Leonard is working with.
According to “Unit_Logs-provided-on-2-27.pdf,” in Todd Foster’s report, the following resources were under Structure Protection Group 2:
TNF E58, BLM E3665, Chino Valley E61, Rio Verde E441, Phoenix BR48, Mesa BR219, Daisy Mountain BR146, Wickenburg SQ751 (whatever THAT is), Congress WT 1, Phoenix WT54, Surprise WT, Yuma COC T2 crew.
Then, Todd was assigned the following to work in the Model Creek area: Chino Valley E61 (Type 6), Rio Verde E441 (Type 6), Prescott FD Sprinkler Trailer, Mesa BR 219, Phoenix BR48 (Type 6), Groom Creek Sprinkler Trailer, Congress WT1, Phoenix WT54, Daisy Mountain BR146, Wickenburg Squad 751 (Type 6), Surprise WT, Queen Creek WT411,
He says he didn’t work, in general, with TNF E58, BLM E3665, or Yuma DOC, which were working with Willis/Moser at the Double A Bar Ranch.
There were no Yarnell/Peeples Valley crews working up there, either with Willis or with Todd Foster.
If Leonard is some version of a “local,” he could have been with Congress WT1 or Wickenburg Squad 751 (Type 6). I’d think it more likely Wickenburg.
But neither of these are working with Willis.
So, still kind of a conundrum. And it’s still really frustrating that nobody wrote up anywhere what crews/engines/etc were doing the Model Creek Road burnout.
Still having trouble accessing the photos Leonard, etc., took that Joy emailed me. It has either something to do with how she posted them or my various screwed up Google accounts.
I had NO trouble whatsoever with that bunch of photos I posted earlier. So I don’t know what the deal is.
Apparently, only John McLean and I are having trouble with them. I guess I’m in good company.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 29, 2014 at 5:03 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So, still kind of a conundrum.
Yes… but an important one if that radio traffic being reported really did take place. It would amount to establishing even more clearly exactly what TIME those men were still ‘alive’ out in that canyon and a more precise timestamp for the actual ‘burnover’ instead of the vague times that have always been put forth for that actual event.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And it’s still really frustrating that nobody wrote
>> up anywhere what crews/engines/etc were
>> doing the Model Creek Road burnout.
Yes.
There is also this ‘confusing’ blurb from Wills’ own Unit Log…
—————————————–
1515 ( 3:15 PM )
Discussed tactics with Operations Musser about firing south of Model Creek road to protect south. Approval Granted assigned Ranch resources to begin firing from the Intersection of Double Bar A ranch West along Model Creek Road.Several slop overs occurred but were picked up.
———————————
Clear as mud. WHAT ‘Ranch resources’ is he talking about?
It was the same story in Willis’ ADOSH interview when they were going through his Unit Log line by line. He was describing the general activity but whenever it came to what was being assigned where Willis was just saying things like “We move some stuff over there” or “We sent some people over there” with no detail about who the heck he was talking about.
The ADOSH investigators were letting all that ‘fly by’ and not pressing him for any details, either.
Willis also insists to ADOSH that it was OPS1 Todd Abel who called HIM on his cellphone… ( it was the other way around ) and that he had ‘heard deployment radio traffic’… but now Willis says he simply didn’t know WHO that was until Abel told him.
Willis still makes no mention of any ‘Captain’ ( Yuma or otherwise ) having to tell him about it up there on Model Creek Road.
From Darrell Willis’ FIRST ADOSH interview. 8/19/2013…
—————————————————
Q1 = Barry Hicks
A = SPGS2 Darrell Willis
—————————————————
A: That was the last communication I had with Todd until he called me on my cell phone at about 1647, somewhere in there. And he said, “Did you hear what’s going on with Granite Mountain?” I said, “I – I heard something about a deployment but I didn’t know who it was or whatever.” And he said, “Granite Mountain.” And so at that point, I had a – a two task force leaders here. And I said, I gave the – we were pretty well done. I said, “Keep mopping, keep watching this and I’m gonna drive around.” And then I drove around to Yarnell.
Q1: To Yarnell. Okay. So you got the word from Todd.
A: Mm-hm. By telephone.
—————————————————
I’m just hoping that, by July of next year, ADOSH has done a WHOLE lot more “investigating.”
Or the lawsuits–whatever.
Just finished some long phone conversations w/Joy and Sonny relaying back and forth with Leonard.
Still pretty muddled. I’m definitely going to have to converse with Leonard some time next week.
And people are REALLY skittish about being publicly cited for information. The community is really divided.
Apparently Leonard said he was with a yellow water tank truck with a Yuma logo on it.
There is absolutely nothing in the Resource Orders or anything else about a Water Tender from Yuma.
I’m really starting to wonder about how many other “under the radar” resources were busily at work on that fire that day.
I wonder if there is a way to check the financial records. That is, who/what all got paid under the Yarnell Hill Fire code. I can see dispatch not having all the resource orders together (especially given the informal way in which resources were being ordered). Normally, you would have to be on a resource order to get paid. But maybe that isn’t the case here.
As far as I know, there should be a single payment code that links to the Yarnell Hill Fire, and every single resource on the fire should be tied to it.
Sorry I don’t have any answers right now. I’m only vaguely aware of how the accounting works with the feds (and it has changed in the last year). The state of AZ may be a whole different issue, and it may require an audit for someone to pull together all the info. It’s been a while since I went through IM’s shared documentation, but I don’t remember seeing anything about the accounting.
You would have to request the costs for the fire
under the Charge number assigned.
it would be in the fire record from the state.
final cost Finance records. Doubt if it was posted any where with what we have.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 29, 2014 at 8:13 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I spent the better part of a week ago, up to just before I
>> posted the photos Joy emailed me, trying to figure out what
>> is meant by “the Yuma Crew,” I’m glad we can now discuss it,
>> because I couldn’t reach a conclusion.
I believe “the Yuma Crew” has always referred to that 20 person hand crew from the Yuma Department of Corrections ( DOC ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> The Yuma Inmate Crew worked as part of Structure Protection
>> Group 2 under Darrell Willis while trying to save Double A Bar
>> Ranch. Then, somewhere between 1 and 1:30 PM, they decided
>> to leave that operation and go back to the Incident Command Post.
As the story goes… It was Darrell Willis who actually ‘sent them away’ from the Double-Bar-A ranch when it came time to just resort to ‘burnouts’… and the Yuma DOC crew had “limited experience” with doing that so Willis just told them to leave the area and return to ICP.
This was ‘verified’ in that exchange between InvestigativeMEDIA and spokesman for the City of Prescott when they were challenging some things that IM had printed in an article.
InvestigativeMEDIA
Granite Mountain Hotshots Were Asked if they Could Protect Yarnell
December 11, 2013 By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshots-were-asked-if-they-could-protect-yarnell/
The following RESPONSES to QUESTIONS from InvestigativeMEDIA about Willis and what he had been doing were coming from Pete Wertheim, Communications and Public Affairs Manager, City of Prescott…
From the article…
——————————————
Question/Comment #1
The report identifies you ( Chief Willis ) by name in its supplemental information as part of the incident management overseeing this area. (Page 13, Instance “a”, Paragraph 3). Incident “a” is included as part of the “serious willful” violation by the state forestry division of ARS Section 23-403(A).
Response to Question/Comment #1
Chief Willis was responsible for the protection of the Double Bar A Ranch, Model Creek Subdivision and Peeples Valley. On June 30, he was working under the direction of the IC as a Group Supervisor for Structure Group #2 until approximately 10:20 a.m. and as an Operations Section Chief after 10:20 a.m. (The City of Prescott issued the following correction to this statement at 1:03 p.m., Dec. 12: “There was a miscommunication the drafting of the response. Chief was working “under” Operations after 10:20, not as one. We apologize for the misunderstanding.” Pete Wertheim, Communications and Public Affairs Manager, City of Prescott)
Question/Comment #2
OSHA states that a 20-member Yuma prison crew under your command “packed up and left” the fire at 1 p.m.
Response to Question/Comment #2
The Yuma Department of Corrections Crew (DOC) did in fact work under the direction of Chief Willis the morning of June 30th in the Double Bar A Ranch area. They were developing a firing plan for the property, when the Yuma DOC crew stated they had limited experience with firing operations so they, along with other resources at the time, were replaced by crews with that experience.
——————————————
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I don’t really know what they ( the Yuma DOC Crew ) did after that,
>> but I don’t think they were on the Model Creek Road Burnout.
No. They weren’t.
The Yuma DOC Crew was NOT used for the Model Creek Road Burnout.
They were ‘sent away’ from the Double-Bar-A Ranch because they did NOT have a lot of experience with ‘burnout operations’ so they wouldn’t have been used up on Model Creek Road, either.
Exactly.
Also. according to the “Chad Blackwell Yuma DOC interview 10-29-13.pdf,”
“On June 30, 2013, Yuma DOC crew (20 firefighters) was assigned structure protection
at the Double Bar A Ranch. The crew performed line construction around the property.
The crew completed about 90% of their work task when the order to evacuate was
given by David Birtcher (AZFD Crew Coordinator). He believes that they evacuated
between 1:00 p.m. and 2:00 p.m.
…
Blackwell was not aware of Aviation contacting Engine 58 regarding potential
compromise of their escape route. Blackwell believed that they exited the Ranch with
extra time to spare as the escape route (main road out) was not affected. They could
hear the fire and see the plume but they were not affected by smoke or blowing embers.
Evacuation was calm and orderly – No emergency. They drove to ICP where shortly
thereafter the fire front had moved close to the school (ICP). Blackwell was surprised
by the fire’s speed.”
Also, I discovered today that Arthur Gonzalez, Phoenix FD, (GONZALES, ARTHUR B), the Engine Boss assigned to that Yuma Engine, is one of the two Administrative Contacts, along with Tyson Esquibel, Peoria FD, for the Arizona “Wildland Resource Group” “West CAWRT,” or Central Arizona Wildland Resource Team.
Also, in that document, under “La Paz/Yuma Counties” the “River Group” consists of eight “departments or districts,” one of which is “Yuma..
So this is a whole very big cooperating group, of which Arthur Gonzales is a fairly main “Contact Person.” This whole group is all about setting up the Dispatch rules and protocols.
I’m going to post a link to a googlecache of that document as a tiny URL, cuz the address is huge. If it doesn’t work, I’ll post the link to the .doc.
It’s (hopefully) here:
http://tinyurl.com/pusy8hp
OK, that works.
The Central Arizona Wildland Response Team has a very interesting Facebook page.
Check out the Cover Photo:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Central-Arizona-Wildland-Response-Team-CAWRT/201969799880168
They’ve got lots of interesting photos of engines we’ve become familiar with via the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The DIRECT link to that ‘Cover Photo’ ( without all the Facebook crap all over it ) is here…
https://www.facebook.com/201969799880168/photos/a.310250032385477.70378.201969799880168/648965621847248/?type=1
LOL!!
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 29, 2014 at 2:43 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> The Central Arizona Wildland Response Team has
>> a very interesting Facebook page.
And some pretty interesting ‘posts’ on it, as well.
Scroll down and look at what was posted there on June 30, 2014, on the day of the one year anniversary of Yarnell when (supposedly) ‘No one did anything wrong” and there were (supposedly) no LCES violations…
———————————————
Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT)
June 30 · Edited
As we are sure most of you have, please put the families and loved one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots in your thoughts and prayers.
At this time last year, several CAWRT crews were a part of the firefighting efforts at Yarnell Hill and still remember the tragedy as if it was yesterday. Take the time to share with your crews the new LCANS procedures as well as reviewing the 10 and 18 and LCES.
———————————————
So “no one did anything wrong” a year ago… but PLEASE make SURE you all take the time to review LCANS, 10+18 and LCES. The life you save might be your own.
And way back on the morning of June 30 itself… they posted THIS…
—————————————-
Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT)
June 30, 2013
CAWRT is sending engines, tenders & overhead to the Yarnell Fire in central Arizona from both the east and west side groups.
—————————————-
And yes they did. In spades.
And ADOSH needs to interview ALL OF THEM.
There are only TWO Facebook posts on the CAWRT Facebook page for the day of Sunday, June 30, 2013.
The first one was in the MORNING where they were ‘proud’ to announce they were sending ALL KINDS of resources to help fight the Yarnell Fire that Sunday.
The second one was later in the evening… AFTER the tragedy… and was simply expressing CAWRT’s condolences to the familes of the fallen.
They’ve also got a Flickr account with lots of their photos in high resolution:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/69858022@N06/
AZ-A1S Engine 162 is a type 6 engine assigned to the Yuma DOC crew. I am not aware of its use on 6/30/13 on the line. But it may have been with the Yuma crew. It is not YUMA Fire Department.
In the photo you reference of a “state engine”…that is Engine 151, the Phoenix District office engine of Arizona Forestry. It was on initial attack from day 1 and was on the fire June 30. It helped catch a slopover on Model Creek road when fire ran towards ICP.
There was no burnout on Model Creek Road. The burnout you’re referencing is the burnout FROM Double Bar A Ranch back towards ICP on Hays Ranch Road….under the direction of Willis and done by TNF E58. The Yuma crew left prior to commencing the burnout.
Reply to Wasthere63013 post November 29, 2014 at 6:42 pm
Thank you!
See a longer ‘reply’ up above to this same information you repeated in a longer post covering the same ‘topics’.
>> Wasthere63013 said…
>>
>> There was no burnout on Model Creek Road.
>> The burnout you’re referencing is the burnout FROM
>> Double Bar A Ranch back towards ICP on Hays
>> Ranch Road….under the direction of Willis and
>> done by TNF E58. The Yuma crew left prior to
>> commencing the burnout.
Again see above.
Darrell Willis’ official Unit Log DOES mention how they ‘burned out’ the road as they were evacuating all resources from the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’…
…but Willis’ Unit Log also goes on to specifically describe this OTHER ‘burnout’ operation that he was overseeing from the intersection of Hays Ranch Road and Model Creek Road… WEST along the south side of Model Creek Road.
Your statement about there being NO burnout along Model Creek Road that day is in direct contradiction to what Darrell Willis is reporting in his own ‘official’ Unit Logs.
See those excerpts from Willis’ Logs up above in that same longer reply to your longer version of this same post.
OK. Joy asked me to post this because she is having all kinds of trouble posting stuff here.
It’s in response to WTKTT asking, ““Its FORBIDDEN to speak publicly about the fire”.
FORBIDDEN by WHO?
Are you saying ‘only when in the Yarnell library’… or something?”
So what Joy wrote is:
“Wed., Oct 15, 2014 I had went to go into Yarnell library and librarian Christina Cooper said “Joy, join us for the writer’s group” and as I went to the area to shake Fred Brown’s hand who lost his home in the YHF- there sat the very one person in my life that you hear me mention who offended me and states publicly fabrications – I just said to Christina I want to check out dvd but then this woman pale faced and fragile walked out to her car with an audience of Christina and Judy sharing her dramatics and fabrications yet again. Yet you try to talk with her— quick to dial 911. I have been told all around to please not take her personal that she has mental issues and age so I leave it alone yet she has caused division not needed so I have no clue if she is the one behind that day but Wed, Oct 15, 2014 9:30am after I left Sonny came in looking for me and I went running because I do get bothered that people are okay that this lady speaks her ways untruths yet I have to just be okay with it…always looking for remedies and empathy…anyways Christina Cooper pulled Sonny aside and announced there will be no more talk of the fire in the library at all for the sensitivity of the ones who moved on and Sonny felt what about the ones looking for every detail but that was the day the rule was set out NO TALKING ABOUT FIRE IN YARNELL LIBRARY.”
Thanks ( to both Joy and Marti ) for that followup.
So the person who is FORBIDDING taxpaying citizens to talk about certain things in a Public Library is the librarian herself…. Christina Cooper.
That’s exactly what I wanted to know.
More later.
Everybody is really scared in Yarnell. The community is really painfully divided. The person who released some of the more important photos we have been looking at is really afraid of having her location revealed publicly. I can totally understand that. I think we need to respect that.
And I also understand, all things considered, a librarian at a library in that town wanting to not have the library be the location for conversations that are tearing the community apart.
Joy is enduring a certain amount of agony trying to pick her way through all of this. I think we need to follow her direction on these things.
I really think we need to honor their need for personal privacy and protection, and healing, while also supporting Joy’s attempts to get them to share what they have.
What they have is not about them. It’s about how this fire was managed/mismanaged. Which is what needs to become public. In spite of these very powerful agencies’ attempts to keep that hidden from the public (who are paying for them).
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 29, 2014 at 8:39 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Everybody is really scared in Yarnell.
SCARED is a strong word. SCARED of WHAT?
Granted… I gathered some people are ‘annoyed’ that others are still seeking more evidence and more TRUTH about what happened that entire weekend… but SCARED?
Actually FRIGHTENED? Of WHAT?
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> The community is really painfully divided.
Yes. I gathered that. ( See above ). Some people want to continue to talk about it and others want them to STOP and just ‘move on’.
Some see the value in discovering any more that can be learned about that weekend and others are just sick of the whole thing.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> The person who released some of the more important
>> photos we have been looking at is really afraid of
>> having her location revealed publicly.
Okay… there’s the SCARED/AFRAID thing again.
SCARED/AFRAID of what?
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I can totally understand that.
I can’t… and that’s why I’m asking.
What am I ‘missing’ that you seem to know that would make me “totally understand that” with regards to people being more than just ‘annoyed’ and actually physically SCARED or FRIGHTENED over the simple sharing of information?
WTKTT,
You posted regarding GMHS lookout McDonough, “That only makes sense given the position Brendan found himself in as being the lone survivor of a crew and also having been the LOOKOUT for that crew.’
Only partially correct as he was the GMHS lookout ONLY when they were building underslung fireline that could not be seen from the ridgelione above. Brendan had a much better vantage point from below for that portion of the fireline. That would have been his sole focus, his Crew building underslung fireline.
The entire day, the GMHS were their own collective lookouts while in their perfectly good SZ. However, when they made the fatal mistake to abandon their perfectly good SZ and travel downslope through chimneys and bowls of unburned fuel, they did NOT post a lookout as required in LCES and the Fire Orders and one of the Watch Out Situations as well.
Reply to Robert the Second post on November 28, 2014 at 8:45 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You posted regarding GMHS lookout McDonough, “That only makes
>> sense given the position Brendan found himself in as being the lone
>> survivor of a crew and also having been the LOOKOUT for that crew.’
>>
>> Only partially correct as he was the GMHS lookout ONLY when they
>> were building underslung fireline that could not be seen from
>> the ridgelione above. Brendan had a much better vantage point
>> from below for that portion of the fireline. That would have been
>> his sole focus, his Crew building underslung fireline.
Yes. I was actually just trying to describe what the ‘feeling’ was about Brendan prior to any real information being revealed about how this accident really happened… but I SHOULD have qualified what I said with a few words on the end…
“That only makes sense given the position Brendan found himself in as being the lone survivor of a crew and also having been the LOOKOUT for that crew… but BEFORE anyone knew what the real circumstances of the fatalities were”.
Even when Brian Ross ( the famous ABC news correspondent ) interviewed Brendan on-camera not long after the incident… he ( Brian Ross himself ) was still confused about what a LOOKOUT really was in the WFF world … and in what CONTEXT Brendan had been the LOOKOUT that day. Until more details emerged… a LOT of people were thinking Brendan was their LOOKOUT for the ‘fatal move’ itself. That was in no way TRUE… but it took a while for most people to realize that.
That was still actually the CONTEXT when Brendan first walked into his first interviews with the Arizona Forestry SAIT investigators…. and if it were me… I would have had a lawyer sitting beside me as well and would have been careful what I was saying.
I guess that’s all I was trying to say.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The entire day, the GMHS were their own collective lookouts while
>> in their perfectly good SZ.
So ( correct me if I am wrong ) you are saying you don’t think there is ANYTHING strange about them working all morning WITHOUT a ( for lack of a better term ) ‘downfield’ LOOKOUT… and it somehow ONLY became important to even think about posting one sometime during a face-to-face meeting with another IHC Supervisor and HIS Captain?
Personally… I still think there’s something a little ‘funky’ there that we don’t have all the answers on.
Example: We still cannot be sure WHO is the person who ACTUALLY decided, all of a sudden ( between 11:55 AM and 12:25 PM ) that a ‘downfield lookout’ was needed at all when there had been no move to do anything of the sort for the hours of work prior to that time. We still don’t know if that was totally Marsh’s ‘plan’ or ‘idea’ at that time… or if this just came out his conversations with Blue Ridge SUP Brian Frisby and BR CAP Trueheart Brown.
I’m actually still not even sure Brendan would really know the answer to that.
We KNOW that at some point… Steed or Marsh turned to Brendan and said…
“Hey Donut… grab your shit… you’re gonna go down with these guys and be a lookout on that mound down there”
…but we still don’t know how involved McDonough was in the ACTUAL conversation(s) that Marsh / Steed / Frisby / Brown were having.
I think only seeing the actual UNREDACTED Blue Ridge logs might give some more answers here on what actually transpired during that ‘face to face’ meeting.
There HAD to be more to it than just what the REDACTED logs say… that they all just stood around for 30 minutes and bitched about the piss-poor briefings and the radio problems… and then Steed asked them for some Gatorades.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> However, when they made the fatal
>> mistake to abandon their perfectly good SZ and travel downslope
>> through chimneys and bowls of unburned fuel, they did NOT post
>> a lookout as required in LCES and the Fire Orders and one of
>> the Watch Out Situations as well.
Exactly… which is why ( getting back to my point above ) that a LOT of people were still looking ‘sideways’ at Brendan McDonough for quite some time following the tragedy.
In a short amount of time… it became obvious that at least ONE of the reasons those men died ( if not the PRIMARY reason ) was because they did NOT have a proper LOOKOUT posted for the MOVE they were attempting… and then everyone is ALSO hearing that someone who was being called ‘the LOOKOUT’ for that crew was the only one who survived that day. A lot of ‘eyebrows’ were still in a ‘raised postition’ at that (early) point.
That was still basically the ‘media context’ that existed when Brendan walked into his first Arizona Forestry SAIT interview. So of course he had a ‘lawyer’ with him. Who wouldn’t.
So, Joy posted the following:
“joy says NOVEMBER 28, 2014 AT 8:52 AM
Marti…my cell is low on battery and left chargers in Congress …did answer by email with photo on the ilympus camera and not hitting back to change i to o. i hope the email helps. i won’t reply much until Monday when charger.”
The email says:
“Hi Joy Took this night before last at 5:56pm and it said 4:03pm on the picture????? So who knows what time my pictures where taken. Was it set wrong time during the fire??”
So that means the Olympus Camera timestamp is 1 hour and 53 minutes behind.
YAY!! THANKS JOY!!!!!!!
I gotta do this quick, but this puts some of these important photos at the following times (I’ll do more when I come back)
Saturday: Helicopter liftoff: 5:27 PM
Sunday: Blue Ridge Buggies at Fire Station: 9:16 AM
T911 retardant drop: 1:38:49 PM
So, something I stumbled over was the timing of the VLAT drop.
I’m not quite sure where we were off, before, with the idea that the photos were 1 hour and 44 minutes early. And that that meant the VLAT drop photo was, therefore, at 1:39 PM. I didn’t actually check the math on that, I just assumed it was true.
As it turns out, the photo WAS taken at, essentially, 1:39 PM, but one hour and 53 minutes early. When I saw that I kinda went “What?”
So, I think neither I nor WTKTT actually checked the math on that estimate.
If the camera had been one minute 44 seconds early, that photo of the drop would have been taken at 1:29 PM.
This all also means that the Olympus captured the photo of the Moki Helitack truck at 5:36:34 PM, seven minutes after the helicopter liftoff and nine minutes before George DeLange took his photo of the same truck at the same spot, minus the fuel truck. So my original instinct that the Olympus photo was taken before George’s photo was right, but my exact timing was off.
And, also, I made a math-death typo up above regarding the Blue Ridge Hotshots Buggies. They”re shown in the Yarnell Fire Department parking lot at 10:15 AM, not 9:15 AM.
They’re shown five minutes before the photo that shows the crew sitting down somewhere in the same parking lot.
I haven’t figured out the locations of these spots photographed, much less the location of the photographer.
OK I’m off to make mashed potatoes and gravy for my daughter’s Friendsgiving Party!
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 28, 2014 at 1:04 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So, Joy posted the following:
>>
>> The email says:
>>
>> “Hi Joy Took this night before last at 5:56pm and it
>> said 4:03pm on the picture????? So who knows what time
>> my pictures where taken. Was it set wrong time during the fire??”
>>
>>
>> So that means the Olympus Camera timestamp is 1 hour and 53 minutes behind.
I think this can be trusted… especially since the owner of the camera seems ‘shocked’ to just now discover this ‘time discrepancy’ on their own camera which means they PROBABLY haven’t fooled with the time settings at all ( or even NOTICED they were wrong ) even in the 16 months since June June 30, 2013.
Remember… my original ‘1 hour and 38 minute’ UPPER limit for the ‘time window’ was TOTALLY based on the TIMES that Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown was reporting for ‘events’ in his own ‘Unit Log’… which was putting the time when Blue Ridge ‘moved out’ from the Yarnell Fire Station at 10:00 AM ( plus however long it took to ‘saddle up’ and actually drive away from the fire station… which I thought might have been just a few minutes. ).
So obviously Captain Brown’s Unit Log times are a bit OFF as to when Blue Ridge actually LEFT the Yarnell Hill Fire station.
Matter of fact.. this can now be PROVEN.
I forgot that there WERE pictures taken by Blue Ridge Hotshots Papich, McCord and Ball that actually DO show when that ‘Blue Ridge Convoy’ was doing all of the following things IMMEDIATELY after leaving the Yarnell Fire Station parking lot…
1) Reaching the ‘Ranch House Restaurant’ location and then turning off of Highway 89 onto Lakewood to head WEST out to the Sesame area.
2) Leaving the clearing at ‘end of pavement’ for Lakewood and Manzanita and then beginning to head NORTH to the Sesame clearing area.
3) Blue Ridge Crew Carriers arriving/parking at their actual ‘staging’ spot out in the Sesame area and Blue Ridge Hotshots dis-embarking from the Crew Buggies.
Papich and Ball were both using Network connected ‘iPhone 4S’ devices so timestamps can be considered already accurate. McCord was using a NIKON COOLPIX S01 that was wildly off on both DATE and HOUR… but his ‘minutes and seconds’ values seemed to be accurate. His NIKON was really just OFF by *exactly* 12 hours. Strange, but (apparently) true.
Taken together, these Papich, Ball and McCord ‘convoy’ pictures prove that while Blue Ridge MAY have still received their ‘marching orders’ ( via radio ) to leave the YFD at 10:00 AM that morning ( as per Brown’s Unit Log )… they did NOT get near the Ranch House Restaurant or turn WEST onto Lakewood Drive until exactly 10:23 AM… then they did NOT start heading north into the Sesame area ( from the place where the pavement of Lakewood and Manzanita ends ) until 10:28 AM… and they did NOT actually ARRIVE at their final ‘parking’ spot’ in the Sesame clearing until right around 10:38 AM.
So even if BR Captain Brown’s ‘Unit Log’ is still correct that they got ‘move out’ orders at exactly 10:00 AM… the photos that show them turning onto Lakewood to head WEST at 10:23 AM means they probably didn’t ‘get it together’ and actually ‘drive away’ from the Yarnell HIll Fire station until around 10:18 or 10:20 AM.
That ‘extra 20 minutes’ of the BR Carriers still being ‘parked’ at the Yarnell Fire station still allows the recently released photos to be ‘possible’ if you now apply the ‘1 hour and 53 minutes behind’ value to the OLYMPUS timestamp.
That’s just even one more reason to believe the new ‘1 hour and 53 minutes behind’ offset for the OLYMPUS is accurate.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> YAY!! THANKS JOY!!!!!!!
Yes. THANK YOU, JOY!
We probably would have ‘arrived’ at almost this same offset sooner or later… but this saves a TON of time getting ‘accuracy’ applied to what really are some VERY important photos.
CAVEAT: All that being said… keep in mind that we don’t know what CLOCK the owner of the camera was actually ‘looking at’ when they, themselves, said the time when they said it was exactly 5:56 PM when they took the photo. I don’t know about anyone else… but NONE of the the ‘wall clocks’ in my house ever actually match the ACTUAL time down to the second. Some are even 4 to 5 minutes OFF the ‘actual’ time.
So if there still remain some ‘discrepancies’ or ‘inconsistencies’ using the ‘1 hour and 53 minute’ offset for the OLYPMPUS… it could just come down to a small error in time based on whatever clock was telling the owner it was ‘5:56 PM’ when they did this TEST.
You said:
“His NIKON was really just OFF by *exactly* 12 hours. Strange, but (apparently) true.”
Little mini-comment from someone who has used digital cameras since about 2002.
Being off by exactly 12 hours is not Strange. It’s really easy, and common. When you’re setting the clock on the camera, you have to pick your way thru year/month/date/time/AMPM.
It’s really easy to set the last one wrong. It’s probably the most common thing to do after not resetting your camera every time daylight savings time begins and then every time daylight savings ends.
In general, most people don’t pay ANY attention to their digital camera’s clock/timestamps after the first time they set them. Because they don’t really need to. Even I am pretty loose about all of that. For most people even the AM/PM settings don’t really matter. What most people are using digital cameras for are the photos, not the timestamps.
The ONLY time timestamps matter are for wedding photographers who have to sync thousands of images captured by multiple cameras, or anybody else using multiple cameras on an event. That’s a really small percentage of people who are taking digital images.
The rest of the time, WHO CARES?
The deal with this email regarding the Olympus is that I advised Joy that her idea to have the camera-owner shoot a photo, while taking note of the time she shot the photo was exactly the thing to do. So the photographer was paying attention to what time she shot the photo. I don’t know what, exactly, she was using to do that. But that was a conscious decision to do that this way in order to figure out how, exactly, far off her camera was set.
And, yes, it’s really fortunate she hadn’t noticed before now that her camera clock was “off” and had “fixed” that.
I’m not sure how a camera would come to be one hour and 53 minutes “early.” Possibly originally set somewhere other than Arizona using a clock that’s not connected to the Internet.
I wrote:
“Possibly originally set somewhere other than Arizona using a clock that’s not connected to the Internet.”
I estimate that’s a hugely common thing to do.
Dear Joy~
Please give the photographer a HUGE thank you for both providing these photos and helping us synchronize them by doing this camera timestamp check.
Copy that ( regarding how easy it is to have a wrong AM / PM setting ).
See my reply to your other post about McCord’s NIKON below.
I was just CONFIRMING the 12 hour discrepancy.
The PROOF that McCord’s NIKON COOLPIK S01 was, in fact, *exactly* 12 hours behind is in those photos of the Blue Ridge crew ‘disembarking’ from their Carriers in the Sesame area at exactly 10:38 AM.
If you apply the ‘exactly 12 hours’ correction to McCord’s photos… he is showing them ‘disembarking’ from the Crew Carriers at exactly 10:38 AM on June 30, 2013.
The Papich photos of the same exact moment have the same exact 10:38 timestamp and they were taken with a Network connections iPhone 4S.
Exactly.
The Blue Ridge IHC images have been both a godsend and a big headache. Even today, I had to pick my way thru them and try to remember what I spent hours figuring out way back when.
Thank Godde for Lightroom and virtual copies.
Reminds me also of the agonies we went thru regarding the Panebaker Air Study stuff.
People set their camera clocks in certain ways, not assuming those stamps are going to matter, in the long run.
And some times, after they have captured their images, something makes it so that those timestamps actually matter.
Which is totally the case regarding this fire.
I can’t even calculate the amount of time we have spent wrestling really important visual evidence regarding this fire into some relatively accurate framework, but it’s been A LOT.
Because sometimes when something happens MATTERS.
You said:
“We probably would have ‘arrived’ at almost this same offset sooner or later… but this saves a TON of time getting ‘accuracy’ applied to what really are some VERY important photos.”
Total understatement!
Look how much time I/we spent circling around these photos, trying to triangulate therm in order to get the important photos accurately located in time.
What really bums me out, now, is all the video files I have, that are also important, that have no timestamps affixed to them at all.
I used to draw topographic maps for a living. The rule of thumb was “If it’s worth doing over, it’s worth getting it right the first time”
So….. memo to Joy:
The most information we can get regarding when a photo/video was captured, and using what camera it was captured by…
…..the absolute BETTER.
We really need to be able to timeline these precious visual documents in order to interpret them to their fullest value.
Marti Reed says
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 28, 2014 at 11:09 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> “We probably would have ‘arrived’ at almost this same
>> offset sooner or later… but this saves a TON of time getting
>> ‘accuracy’ applied to what (are) really are some VERY
>> important photos.”
>>
>> Total understatement!
Well… actually… just before you posted Joy’s statement from the owner of the Olympus I was going to correct MYSELF about that ‘upper maximum’ for the ‘window’ we were looking at.
I really did ‘forget’ that there were those Blue Ridge photos of the convoy actually turning off of HIghway 89 onto Lakewood Drive that morning and that some of them were iPhone 4S photos with ‘trusted’ timestamps.
When I saw that they weren’t even turning off HIghway 89 to head WEST on Lakewood until 10:23 AM… I said “Whoa… that means the ‘upper limit’ needs to be HIGHER than 1 hour 44 minutes.”
However… WITHOUT Joy’s help ( and the camera owner’s willingness to help us out here ) we would still have just been ‘guessing’ about WHEN they actually left the Yarnell Hill Fire Department parking lot and best we could have done with that would still have been maybe 5-10 minutes off the real camera offset.
People still think we are crazy for chasing all these ‘vehicle details’ and EXACT times for certain photos and videos… but every time we nail something down it tells us more about the TESTIMONY that people have given… and whether or not it can be TRUSTED.
‘Investigations 101’.
Always TRUST… but always VERIFY.
So. I’m back to working on the Olympus photos.
I have made “virtual copies” of them in LIghtroom, set the timestamps on them to an hour forward. I would really like to be able to compare these with the others, in terms of looking at the REALLY IMPORTANT fire progression during the afternoon/evening/night of June 29.
After setting the timestamps an hour forward (kind of splitting the difference regarding what WTKTT wrote about the “earliest” and the “latest” possibilities for these photos, what I am seeing is the BLM Moki Helitack N14HX Helicopter lifting off from the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Department at 4:34:17 PM.
That seems a bit early to me. Off the top of my head, I’m remembering that people said in the interviews that the crew flew up there about 5 PM.
So I’m thinking the photos may have been taken at the later end of the window rather than the middle.
I really wish there was a way to pin down when that crew actually flew up to the fire.
Any thoughts????
I’d really like to pin this so I can start comparing images of the fire progression.
PS On another note, image P6290612.JPG, taken at 2:03:13 PM (with a one hour forward timestamp correction) shows the helitack crew actually setting up the Bambi Bucket
So there are two photos I’m looking at to try to tighten this up.
One is the Olympus photo P6290633.JPG (of the helitack crew truck sitting in front of a garage door of the Yarnell Fire Department) which originally had the timestamp of 4:28 PM. After I bumped this one hour forward and then pushed it another 20 minutes forward, due to what I wrote above, I ended up with the time of 6 PM for this photo.
Then I compared it to a photo taken by George DeLange of that truck sitting in the same place.
That photo can be found here (the first photo on the page):
http://www.delange.org/Yarnell_Forest_Fire/Yarnell_Forest_Fire.htm
That shows the truck in the same place at, according to its metadata, 5:45:02 PM.
The camera George is using is capable of setting its timestamping via its geocoding capabilities. George’s photos contain complete geocoding. So I think it’s probable his timestamps are accurate.
The difference between these two photos is that the Olympus photo shows a fuel truck and the DeLange photo doesn’t.
I would think the fuel truck would be in a photo earlier than a photo without it. Both of these photos are taken after the helicopter took off, carrying the extra helitack crew members up to the fire. I would assume the fuel truck would have been there earlier–related to fueling the helicopter–and then would have left, as shown in the DeLange photo.
So I’m now thinking the photo taken by the Olympus would maybe have been taken 5-10 minutes before George’s photo.
Doing all the math (which I can’t describe and nobody wants to read), that would mean that the Olympus timestamps are about one hour and twelve minutes early.
That would mean that the launch of the helicopter with the crew would have taken place around 4:40-ish PM. A bit earlier than various interviews, I think, say.But only 20 minutes, which could be understandable, all things considered.
So I think we need to push the Olympus photos about one hour and ten minutes forward to get them into the ballpark of relatively accurate.
That would mean the photo of the VLAT 910 drop, P6300665.JPG, would have been taken at about 12:45 PM.
Correction.
12:55 PM.
So I’m currently thinking of changing the timestamps of the Olympus photos I have posted via Dropox one hour and ten minutes forward so others can compare its photos to the other ones showing the fire progression on the evening of June 29.
Hi Joy Took this night before last at 5:56pm and it said 4:03pm on the picture????? So who knows what time my pictures where taken. Was it set wrong time during the fire??
>
Hi Joy Took this night before last at 5:56pm and it said 4:03pm on the picture????? So who knows what time my pictures where taken. Was it set wrong time during the fire??
>
Marti…my cell is low on battery and left chargers in Congress …did answer by email with photo on the ilympus camera and not hitting back to change i to o. i hope the email helps. i won’t reply much until Monday when charger.
gotcha, thx!
So I wrote:
“NOVEMBER 27, 2014 AT 10:59 PM
So I’m currently thinking of changing the timestamps of the Olympus photos I have posted via Dropox one hour and ten minutes forward so others can compare its photos to the other ones showing the fire progression on the evening of June 29.”
That doesn’t work. Puts the VLAT drop too early.
I think WTKTT’s estimate of one hour and 44 minutes is much better. That puts the Saturday lift of the helicopter pic at 5:06 PM and the Sunday VLAT drop at 1:39 PM.
So it looks like George’s photo at 5:45 of the helitack crew truck is just taken 25-ish minutes earlier than the Olympus, and it would make sense that maybe that fuel truck arrived in between the two to re-fuel the helicopter after it returned from hauling the crew up.
I haven’t looked at the Blue Ridge photos of the VLAT drop yet. I don’t remember if they were taken by one of the cameras that had to have its timestamp corrected.
Correcting timestamps is such a PITA. Pro-tip: When capturing videos and photos of a wildfire, please make sure your camera has the correct date/time on it. They may turn out to be important photos and videos.
So I just looked at the Blue Ridge Hotshots stuff.
All of the original captures of the VLAT drop in question are videos.
There are two of them.
One is yarnell 088.MOV. It’s taken on a Nikon Coolpix which has the AM/PM switched. So every timestamp on this camera needs to have 12 hours added to it. Other than that (which is an easy mistake to make when setting the clock on the camera), I think the minutes are probably basically correct.
This yarnell 088.MOV is timestamped 1:39:45 AM, so it was captured at 1:39:45 PM.
The one before it, yarnell 087.MOV, was (corrected) captured at 1:35 PM. It shows the “show-me” flight.
The other (relatively) original video of the drop is yarnell-desoto 003.MOV. It was taken on an iPhone 4S, so it probably was timestamping correctly. However, this .MOV is timestamped 8:40:19 PM. So, I don’t know how this stuff works, cuz I still don’t have a smartphone. But it looks like the actual original would have been something else, and this version was “re-digitized” at 8:40 PM.
There are various stills of this drop, but it appears to me they are all frame-captures from this video. DeSoto made several Instagrams and edits of his photos/videos.
There are no original stills of this drop among the Blue Ridge Hotshots collection.
So, I think 1:39 PM is a pretty accurate anchor for this VLAT 911 retardant drop.
And thus for the Olympus.
I think adding that 1 hour and 44 minutes to the Olympus is about as accurate as we can/need to get.
And regarding the yarnell-desoto 003.MOV, “re-digitized” at 8:40 PM, it is 1920×1080, which all the videos taken on the iPhone 4S are, also.
Six minutes later, at 8:46 PM, another video, file-named IMG_3953, was digitized. It is 224×128 (probably that teeny file-size resolution used for quick uploading). Other than the different resolution, it is the same video as yarnell-desoto 003.MOV.
Also, those teeny videos are better for viewing/storing on a cellphone. As we finally figured out while trying to figure out the Aaron Hulburd videos.
And, PS, that yarnell 088.MOV, captured at 1:39:45 PM, is the one that captures, at its beginning, the “near miss” between T911 and the HT-749 N243AC Erickson Air Crane Helitanker.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 28, 2014 at 11:00 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So I just looked at the Blue Ridge Hotshots stuff.
>>
>> All of the original captures of the VLAT drop in question are videos.
>>
>> There are two of them.
>>
>> One is yarnell 088.MOV. It’s taken on a Nikon Coolpix which
>> has the AM/PM switched. So every timestamp on this camera
>> needs to have 12 hours added to it. Other than that (which is
>> an easy mistake to make when setting the clock on the
>> camera), I think the minutes are probably basically correct.
Yes. They seem to be.
This is McCord’s NIKON COOLPIX S01 and it really was just exactly ’12 hours’ off that day.
One confirmation is that McCord’s NIKON photos of the Blue Ridge Carriers arriving in the Sesame clearing ‘parking’ area and the BR Hotshots ‘disembarking’ from the Carriers at 10:38 AM ( once 12 hour offset applied ) matches exactly the timestamps of same ‘disembarking from Carriers’ moment in Papich photos taken with a Network connected iPhone 4S.
Joy. I just sent you the following email:
Joy~
I started to download the photos, but I’m getting a message that I have to have your permission to access the photos. I don’t understand this stuff, cuz I haven’t used google docs all that much.
So apparently, according to their message when I tried to access them, they are contacting you some way to confirm your permission for me to do that.
It’s weird, I didn’t have to do that before.
~ Marti
Something makes absolutely no sense to me. If both investigations believed that McDonough heard the crucial conversations (as they state – maybe unsupported by the interviews) then it is absolutely inconceivable that they would not have questioned him in detail about what he heard. Yet they do not say they did that. They do not say that McDonough declined to answer or said he did not remember. Rather they say nothing. So we have no idea how cooperative or truthful McDonough has been. Maybe it is the investigators being less than forthcoming.
I am certain McDonough and his lawyer feel no obligation to comment on this publicly now, and they have no obligation to do so, no matter how curious the public is. They do have an obligation to cooperate with the investigations and the legal process, and we have no real evidence that they have not done so.
If McDonough wanted to be obtuse, why would he not have just said he did not hear the conversations in question. If he admitted he did, he knows he would be asked about what was said. Have those questions been asked and answered…..
Reply to mike post on November 26, 2014 at 11:16 pm
>> mike said…
>>
>> Something makes absolutely no sense to me.
>> If both investigations believed that McDonough heard the crucial
>> conversations (as they state – maybe unsupported by the interviews)
>> then it is absolutely inconceivable that they would not have questioned
>> him in detail about what he heard.
Totally agree.
However… since we are still really clueless how either of those statements really got into either ‘official’ report… here is a scenario to consider.
By the time Brendan McDonough gave ANY interviews to ANYONE… he was already represented by counsel.
He may have already been working with ‘counsel’ to develop what his ‘strategy’ was going to be. ( And by ‘He’ I am also including whatever Arizona Fire or Prescott based ‘mentors’ were ‘advising’ him at that same time ).
It could have become obvious that there was no way he was going to be able to deny that the GM intra-crew was his priority radio channel that day… and that he would have a hard time denying that it WAS his ‘primary focus’ after abandoning his lookout post to stay ‘glued to that channel’ in order to fulfill the promise he made to Jesse Steed about “just give me a call if you need ANYTHING”.
So his ‘counsel’ may have advised him that he was GOING to have to admit to ‘listening to conversations’ that day.
However… that doesn’t mean he has to voluntarily report what he heard.
Counsel’s advice might have been to admit to certain limited things… but to NOT go into ANY detail about certain radio transmissions.
So maybe ( just maybe ) Brendan McDonough really did admit flat-out to investigators that he ‘heard them discussing their options’… but when they DID press him for details he responded with “on advice of counsel I respectfully decline to answer that question’.
It was his RIGHT to do that. He was never ‘on the stand’ in these interviews.
He was doing them voluntarily… and was allowed ( on advice of counsel ) to put his own limitations on what he was ( or was NOT ) going to talk about.
This actually seems pretty obvious in his FIRST ADOSH interview.
Anytime one of the ADOSH investigators asked Brendan anything related to what he hear over the radio from the time he left his lookout post to the time of the deployment… Brendan basically dodged the question with statements like “That wasn’t relayed TO me” or “That wasn’t my job” or other such ‘deflection’ of the question(s).
In BOTH of Brendan’s ADOSH interviews… his lawyer was sitting right next to him, and there are number of places where we cannot hear what the lawyer was saying… but it’s obvious there was a short consult betwen Brendan and his lawyer before he would offer any answer at all to certain questions.
So maybe his lawyer really was ‘drawing the line’ and ( perhaps ) even told the ADOSH investigators beforehand what questions were to be considered ‘out of bounds’ ( such as any questions about the content of certain specific radio transmissions ).
It’s possible.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> Yet they do not say they did that. They do not say that McDonough
>> declined to answer or said he did not remember. Rather they say nothing.
>> So we have no idea how cooperative or truthful McDonough has been.
Exactly. That might even cut-back to what I suggested above.
There may have actually been ‘pre-conditions’ on his being interviewed at all… and/or post-interview instructions from his lawyer about what could be ‘used’ in a report.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> Maybe it is the investigators being less than forthcoming.
Maybe so… but maybe they had to AGREE to not say certain things (in a report) in order to even get the interview(s) with Brendan in the first place.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> I am certain McDonough and his lawyer feel no obligation to comment
>> on this publicly now, and they have no obligation to do so, no matter
>> how curious the public is. They do have an obligation to cooperate
>> with the investigations and the legal process, and we have no real
>> evidence that they have not done so.
Even the suggestion that there are ‘depositions’ involved ( on any timeframe ) indicates that the last thing either Brendan or his lawyer(s) want to have happen if for him to have to put his hand on a Bible and ‘take the stand’ ( and also be subject to any cross-examination ).
Sometimes… lawyers will try to fight for simple ‘depositions’ in EXCHANGE for their client NOT having to take the stand. If both sides agree to it… then that is what happens.
Maybe that’s what is happening right now. ‘Depositions’ in lieu of ‘court appearance’.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> If McDonough wanted to be obtuse, why would he not have just said he
>> did not hear the conversations in question.
Probably because he KNEW that would be a ”lie’.?
>> mike also said…
>>
>> If he admitted he did, he knows he would be asked about what was said.
Yes… but THAT is where the ‘pre-interview’ agreements might have kicked in such as…
“My client will admit to overhearing certain conversations on the radio but he will NOT be providing any detail about the content of those conversations. If that is not acceptable then my client declines to be interviewed by your agency.”
Brendan really has always had his OWN ‘agenda’ here ( and has basically said so ).
He wanted to ‘cooperate’ with the investigations… but he also did not want to do anything that would ‘dishonor my brothers’.
Maybe his lawyers helped him with that agenda… and found a way to make it look like he was ‘cooperating’ WITHOUT having to tell everything he knows.
Also possible.
There is really no doubt that Brendan was ‘coached’ going into these interviews.
But COACHED by WHO… about WHAT… and WHY?
Followup…
As if this wasn’t’ already confusing enough…
It was the SAIT itself that first published that unequivocal statement that Brendan McDonough did, in fact, hear Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ‘discussing their options and making a plan to leave the safe black’.
However… on June 20, 2014… the actual Co-Lead of the SAIT investigation ( US Forestry employee Mike Dudley ) got up in front of a bunch of firefighters in Utah and said the following…
———————————————————————-
+39:54
Dudley: So… did they pick that deliberately because they wanted to go direct? We don’t know.
The only surviving member of the crew… the lookout… he could not tell us anything because he was focused on lookout and when he got picked up by the superintendent of the Blue Ridge… he gave the superintendent his radio so the superintendent could communicate with… uh… Granite Mountain.
( Pause )
We DO know that there was communications goin’ on… there HAD to be… between the crew… we KNOW that. Uh… internal… but that’s all intra-crew communications. None of that is recorded. No one hears that.
——————————————————————–
So there is the Co-Lead and Co-Author of the SAIT itself now seeming to be trying to DENY that Brendan McDonough ever told them ANYTHING at all about ANY intra-crew conversations.
Totally 180 degrees from what his OWN SAIR report said.
So the mystery goes even deeper.
Did Brendan really hear anything at all?
SAIR document says YES…
Co-Lead of SAIT and Co-Author of SAIR waits almost a year… then says NO.
And the wheels on the bus go round and round… round and round… etc.
I doubt McDonough’s lawyer would have allowed his client to do as you suggest, because once the interview occurs, there is nothing to prevent the investigators from revealing the fact that the witness had been uncooperative – i.e. refused to answer certain questions or insisted certain questions not be asked. Point is – this is pure speculation.
Besides, this whole thing may have a Kabuki-theater quality to it. RTS’ suggestion below that people away from the fire may have heard the critical communications is news to me, but maybe not all that far-fetched. I have had the sense for a while that at least some people, both in the fire community and in the families, are not as clueless about what happened that day as has been assumed.
For both of you something that has stuck in my craw for some time is the new investigation directive on Fatalities.
The team the first day sets the reason for the Fatality that dose not Identify any one with the cause. Thus the extreme weather and Radio problems with the famous black out of communications.
You can’t allow the information that McDonough or BR were listing to the Crew Net during that entire RADIO PROBLEMS. They could also have communicated with GM as well.
The SAIT set the tone and ADOSH was left with the crumbs.
As I said last night there is no way that McDonough was not Listening to every thing that was said by his crew, He had the means with both the Portable Radio and the Truck Radio. The Lawyers and investigators dam well know that its an easy jump to he has more information than he is telling us.
Thus the Deposition which he would have to give for the court if he was going to be called as a witness. He has nothing to lose except his personal support of the crew if his information is damaging to his bosses he has to be truthful on the Witness stand which ever way it goes and both sides have to have his expected testimony.
My personal opinion———–
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 27, 2014 at 8:43 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> As I said last night there is no way that McDonough
>> was not Listening to every thing that was said by his
>> crew, He had the means with both the Portable Radio
>> and the Truck Radio.
Totally agree… and that really is the ‘bottom line’.
Even without any of these confusing statements in the SAIR and WFAR which state, unequivocally, that he DID ‘hear them discussing their options and making a plan to leave the safe black’., there is all the evidence in the world that Brendan SHOULD have heard what the official reports say he did.
Given all the evidence ( and all of the things we have proved here in this discussion about where he was and what he was doing and how near the radios he was at ALL times following his evacuation )… “any reasonable person” would conclude that it would be highly unlikely he did NOT hear all this intra-crew radio traffic.
Reply to mike post on November 27, 2014 at 5:52 am
>> mike said…
>>
>> I doubt McDonough’s lawyer would have allowed his client to do
>> as you suggest,
Copy that… but I would be astonished if there weren’t some ‘ground rules’ laid out by his attorney(s) prior to the interviews that, themselves, had to be ‘off the record’ or there would be no interview. That only makes sense given the position Brendan found himself in as being the lone survivor of a crew and also having been the LOOKOUT for that crew.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> …because once the interview occurs, there is nothing to prevent
>> the investigators from revealing the fact that the witness had
>> been uncooperative – i.e. refused to answer certain questions
>> or insisted certain questions not be asked.
Well… actually… it would not be unusual at all for an individual who is represented by counsel to set whatever ‘ground rules’ they wanted for the interview itself… including absolute agreement that even the ‘ground rules’ themselves would be totally ‘off the record’ and must never be revealed.
That happens all the time.
One of the ground rules could have been… “You will NOT even ASK my client what the content of any radio communication might have been if he was not directly involved in that conversation or it was not specifically ‘directed’ or ‘relayed’ to him”.
That even WAS Brendan’s ‘legally correct’ answer to ADOSH when they asked him directly if he heard the MAYDAY traffic on the radio in real time.
Brendan said “That wasn’t being relayed to me.”
That’s not an answer. It’s a ‘legally correct dodge of the question’ and indicates some pretty good ‘coaching’.
Some proof that there MIGHT have been this kind of ‘agreement’ in place prior to the interviews can also be seen when Brendan finally consented to an on-camera interview with the Prescott Daily Courier.
See below for a link to that article.
Even the Prescott Daily Courier was ‘allowed’ to report that Brendan TOLD them there would be ‘things I am not going to talk about’… but then they also had to agree not to elaborate ( in the article ) on what those ‘things’ were.
VERY similar to the SAIT / ADOSH interview, perhaps.
Attorney’s might have stipulated that he would admit to hearing certain conversations… but would not be discussing the ‘content’ of any radio communication he wasn’t directly involved with… and even that ‘condition’ for the interview was NOT to be reported publicly.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> Point is – this is pure speculation.
Regarding potential attorney/client ‘coaching’ or ‘plans’. for the SAIT and ADOSH interviews… yes… but with regards to whether or not Brendan had decided early on that there are things he knows that he was always going to REFUSE to talk about… it is NOT any kind of speculation.
Brendan himself has SAID ( in public ) “There are things I won’t talk about”.
When he granted one of his first on-camera interviews to the Prescott Daily Courier… the article said up-front-and-center that McDonough told them directly ( BEFORE the interview ) that there are “things I will NOT talk about”.
The Courier was allowed to print that FACT… but was NOT allowed to mention in any way what those THINGS were that Brendan was still refusing to talk about.
Article in The Prescott Daily Courier
Published: 8/7/2013 6:00:00 AM
By: Joanna Dodder Nellans
Title: Brendan McDonough believes everything happens for a reason.
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=122030
From the article…
——————————————————-
Brendan was ill on Friday and Saturday, June 28-29, but returned to work with his crew in time for the Yarnell Hill wildfire assignment early on the morning of June 30.
There were some things he didn’t want to discuss about that day with The Daily Courier, but he described much of it in detail.
——————————————————-
That’s it. Just a flat-out admission that Brendan put ‘rules’ around the interview and pretty much stated directly there might be some things he knows. but he is NOT going to talk about them… and Joanna Dodder Nellans wasn’t even given permission to say WHAT those ‘things’ were.
Just like the SAIR report when it says Brendan heard something… but then provides no detail on WHAT he heard.
Brendan might have walked into that SAIT interview ( with his attorney ) and made it clear to them ( just like he did with the Courier ) that there would be things he is NOT going to discuss so don’t even ‘GO there’.
Again… this is all just more evidence that “any reasonable person” should construe that Brendan has always known more than he will say.
He has his OWN ‘agenda’… and he is ( and has been ) ‘sticking to it’.
Reply to TTWARE post on November 26, 2014 at 9:07 am
NOTE: This is a continuation of a thread from down below that was discussing the new photographic evidence ( supplied by Joy Collura and made available by Marti Cole ) that the BLM Helicopter N14HX definitely had a ‘Bambi Bucket’ with it all day Saturday, June 29, 2013, which could have been used at any time on Saturday to do ‘Water Drops’ in support of the Lewis DOC crew… but was NOT.
It has always been ‘assumed’ that Helicopter N14HX had such a ‘Bambi Bucket’ with it on Saturday… but TWO of the new photographs now provide incontrovertible evidence that it DID have ‘Drop capability’ all day Saturday. The ‘Bambi Bucket’ is seen lying on the Yarnell Fire Station Helipad right near Helicopter N14HX… ready to be used at any moment on Saturday.
However… there is no evidence that IC Russ Shumate actually used that ‘drop capability’ that was at his disposal at ANY time on Saturday… nor did he even PREPARE to do so until AFTER the fire had already ‘escaped’ the small 2-4 acre where it had been ‘smoldering’ all day Saturday.
Shumate’s own Unit Logs state that only AFTER he learned ( in the LATE afternoon ) that the smoldering fire had ‘flared up’ and had ‘jumped a road’ up on the mountain did he make any attempt to set up any ‘dip sites’ to use for Helicopter Bucket drops ( even though BLM Rep Dean Fernandez had urged him to do so several times during the day on Saturday ).
Shumate’s Unit Logs then state that he only now ( late in the day ) ordered/instructed a Yarnell Hill Fire Department Water Tender ( and its crew ) to ‘create a dip-site’ to be used for ‘Helicopter Bucket Drops’. Apparently… IC Russ Shumate was somehow unaware that there were plenty of ‘cattle ponds’ at ranches in the area and those ranchers had (apparently) ALREADY given Arizona Forestry permission to use those ponds as ‘dip-sites’ on Saturday, if needed.
From IC Russ Shumate’s own Unit Log entries made AFTER the point where he had been informed the 2-4 acre fire had ‘escaped’ and ‘jumped a road’ up on the ridge…
———————————————-
“Ordered YFD ( Yarnell Fire Department ) Water Tender to utilize for creation of a dip site for potential bucket work.”
———————————————-
The ADOSH interview notes with this Yarnell Hill Fire Department Water Tender crew ( reprinted below ) go on to say that (apparently) TWO ‘pumpkins’ were then set up in response to ICT Shumate’s request. One was at the Boulder Springs Ranch… and (apparently) another one in the clear area near the ‘Ranch House Restaurant’.
It is still NOT clear from either Shumate’s Unit Log or from the YFD crew interviews WHO actually made the decisions about WHERE to create these ‘dip sites’ that Shumate had requested. It could have been ( and would seem likely ) that the YFD crew itself decided exactly WHERE they were going to set up these ‘pumpkins’, and one location is known to have been the Boulder Springs Ranch.
During this discussion below… TTWARE doubted that Shumate’s own Unit Log had enough information to be sure about all this and he posted the following…
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> When I first started reading your post, I thought I had missed
>> something previously, and that maybe the YFD HAD just
>> chosen a very poor location for a dip-site for all the reasons
>> I mentioned above.
>>
>> But after re-reading the transcripts you have posted, it seems
>> you are taking a bit of a leap in stating the BSR pumpkin WAS
>> the one set-up by the YFD per Shumate’s order.
I don’t think so. As I said below… this has all been covered before and there ARE interview notes with the Yarnell Hill Fire Department Water Tender crew that tend to support all this.
>> TTWARE also said…
>> You keep saying “it was in Shumate’s logs”, but there is nothing
>> of the kind there. There IS an order to create a dip-site, but
>> there is NO “where” there,
Shumate DID ask YFD to ‘create a dip-site’, which only means one thing.
He (Shumate) intended it to be used for Helicopter Bucket Drops.
According to the interview notes with the very YFD Water Tender Crew that he had just made the request/order to… it is unclear WHO made the decision on WHERE… but there is no doubt they ( the YFD crew ) then immediately proceeded to set up at least one ‘pumpkin’ out at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
>> TTWARE also said…
>> And indeed, there isn’t ANY evidence in the record that YFD even
>> followed through with the order.
Yes. There is. I only included Shumate’s direct request to that Yarnell Water Tender Crew in the post below since that is the ‘clincher’ with regards to WHAT he needed at that time ( A dip-site )… but this has all been covered before complete with the supporting evidence from the YFD Water Tender Crew themselves. See their testimony below.
>> TTWARE also said…
>> You have created a pretty big narrative above that they did, along
>> with where they did it, but those are just assumptions you have made.
Not assumptions. It is what the evidence ( all of it taken together ) really seems to be saying.
Before I reprint all the stuff I posted about this back in Chapter 6… I wanted to show two more pieces of evidence from both Gary Cordes and BLM Rep Dean Fernandez that also establish the following…
1) When Cordes first got to the Boulder Springs Ranch Sunday morning, the ‘pumpkin’ was already there. So it had obviously been set up the day before, just as IC Shumate requested and the YFD Water Crew then ‘fulfilled the request’.
2) BLM Rep Dean Fernandez actually ARRIVED on the Yarnell Hill Fire early Saturday morning in the Yellow/White Helicopter N14HX that was ‘on loan’ from BLM. Fernandez was ‘ordered up’ the day before as another ‘IC’ to assist Shumate on Saturday. Fernandez stated in his SAIT interview that he had, in fact, URGED Shumate to ‘set up some pumpkins’ to be used for Helicopter ‘Bucket Drops SEVERAL TIMES on Saturday… but IC Russ Shumate never bothered to do that until it was too late to make any difference that day.
** GARY CORDES’ SAIT INTERVIEW NOTES
Excerpts from Gary Cordes’ SAIT interview notes…
Sunday, June 30, 2013
—————————————————–
0600
* Reported findings of fire crossing
* Todd Able, Paul Musser, Dino Fernandez, Russ Schumate and Eric discussed plans
* Dozer line to follow E flank of the hill
* Eric wanted to go direct – south heel of fire
* Russ said air support was coming in
* Took the crews in and showed them where to park the buggies
0630-0700
* 1 ½ mile hike in – went in and worked.
* Checked on the crew throughout the day. They were on Tac 1
* Identified Boulder Spring ranch as a bomb proof safety zone.
* There was a pumpkin there.
——————————————————-
There are TWO things to notice here in Gary Cordes’ (supposedly) time-sequential recall notes.
1) Cordes seems to say he only got around to actually visiting the Boulder Springs Ranch between 6:30 and 7:00 AM on Sunday morning, and only THEN ‘Identified’ it as a ‘bomb proof safety zone’. He also says there was already a pumpkin set up there… which means it HAD been set up the day before and had been there all night.
2) Even though the times seem to be 1 hour early… Cordes’ notes still seem to indicate that he only actually visited the Boulder Springs Ranch ( for the first time ) AFTER he had already taken Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain out the Sesame area and AFTER he had already TOLD them that was their ‘Safety Zone’. In other words… the notes seem to indicate he assigned the BSR to Granite Mountain as their ‘Pre-determined Safety Zone’ BEFORE he ever even visited the place ( and found the pumpkin there ).
At the BOTTOM of Gary Cordes’ SAIT interview notes there are also two separate ‘notes’ which seem to indicate the SAIT interviewers only asked Cordes TWO questions.
The FIRST question Cordes was asked was about WHEN the pumpkin had been ‘staged’ there at the BSR. Cordes confirms it was ‘the day before’ ( Saturday )…
Q: When was the pumpkin staged?
A: The day before
The SECOND question Cordes was asked was related to where the Granite Mountain deployment site was. Cordes is the ONLY person in all of the SAIT interview notes to tell the investigators he wasn’t surprised in any way that the bodies were found where they were. This matches his ADOSH testimony where he told them he never had ANY doubts at all that Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch that afternoon.
Q: Were you surprised where they ( Granite Mountain ) were (found)?
A: No.
** DEAN FERNANDEZ’S SAIT INTERVIEW NOTES
Excerpts from Gary Cordes’ SAIT interview notes…
Saturday, June 29, 2013
—————————————————————-
* Saturday morning went to Weaver Mtn Helibase and went in the helo and scouted the fire, it looked good, innocent. They landed and picked people up and took the crew members out
* Russ the IC said go down there and get 6 people and fly them to the top. SEATS were dropping on top but it didn’t look to be boxed in completely and rough terrain.
* Dean was acting as a Rep and suggested several times to get a pumpkin set up, but it wasn’t happening…later on the fire picked up which was a surprise. It jumped the line.
* Dean Fernandez asked Russ Shumate “Do you want me to take over the fire?”Russ replied, “Am I doing something wrong? No, I just wanted to make sure.”
———————————————————————–
So, according to Dean Fernandez, he had URGED IC Russ Shumate to go ahead and get a pumpkin set up for ‘Bucket Drops’ ( somewhere, anywhere ) SEVERAL times on Saturday.
Fernandez really could NOT have been insisting the pumpkin be set up for ANY kind of ‘structure protection’ reasons because on Saturday… this was simply NOT an issue and no one really thought it ever would be.
There were NO STRUCTURES being threatened in any way all day Saturday.
Saturday was all about the small 2-4 acre fire up on the ridge and supporting the DOC Lewis crew that had been set up to take care of things. Any of the ‘several’ suggestions from Fernandez to Shumate on Saturday’ about ‘setting up a pumpkin’ must have been with the intent of getting some ‘Bucket Drops’ going to support the Lewis DOC crew.
Fernandez had ARRIVED with Helicopter N14HX and Fernandez KNEW it came with a ‘Bambi Bucket’ and ( apparently ) spent a lot of time on Saturday wondering why it wasn’t being put to use, and was, indeed, repeatedly URGING IC Russ Shumate to ‘set up a pumpkin’ and get ‘Bucket Drops’ going in support of the Lewis DOC crew. Shumate never did.
** YARNELL FIRE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEWS
The Arizona Forestry SAIT ‘Interview Notes’ would have us believe that they never interviewed ANYONE from the Yarnell Hill Fire department.
That is non-credible… since there is a LOT of evidence that Arizona Forestry DID conduct extensive interviews with the Peeples Valley firefighters.
Peeples Valley firefighter Bob Brandon states in his own online testimony that he and the other PVFFs were all interviewed extensively by ‘investigators’ right after the incident… and that the ‘investigators’ also took many, many photos ( and videos ) from them as well as cellphone records, since they had all been ‘texting’ each other as well as talking on the radio that day.
Peeples Valley Fire Captain Jake Moder also testified to ADOSH about these interviews… but Mr. Moder adds the detail that the ‘investigators’ were a (quote) “team assembled by Arizona Forestry”.
Here is exactly what the ADOSH notes say Mr. Moder told them ( see full ADOSH notes below )…
———————————
Peeples Valley Fire Captain Jake Moder stated that he and the three other Peeples Valley fire fighters were interviewed together on July 10, 2013 for about 45 minutes by the investigation team assembled by the Arizona State Forestry Division.
———————————-
NONE of these ‘interviews’ or ‘photos’ or ‘videos’ or ‘cellphone’ records that Arizona Forestry collected from ALL of the Peeples Valley firefighters has ever seen the light of day… even though Arizona Open Records and FOIA requests were made for “all information collected by Arizona Forestry as related to the Yarnell Hill Fire that you have in your possession”.
Anyway… I digress…
Regardless of what Arizona Forestry is ‘still hiding’ the fact is there are no ‘interview notes’ from anyone associated with the Yarnell Hill Fire department present in Arizona Forestry’s response to FOIA / FOIL requests for ‘all information they have pertaining to the Yarnell Hill Fire’.
So we still have to turn to ADOSH for interviews with anyone from YFD.
The following is all reprinted from back in ‘Chapter 6’ of this ongoing discussion.
I was replying to Deborah Pfingston, the mother of Andrew Ashcraft.
** ADOSH INTERVIEWS WITH PERSONNEL FROM…
** YARNELL FIRE DEPARTMENT
** PEEPLES VALLEY FIRE DEPARTMENT
>> Reply to Deborah Pfingston post on April 10, 2014 at 9:15 am
>>
>> Deborah asked…
>>
>> Would anyone be able to guide me to any interviews with Yarnell
>> Fire volunteer firefighters that were in Yarnell – or – any structure
>> firefighters that were in Yarnell on June 30th? Thank you.
Deborah…
This ADOSH document… “L3419 Notes redacted.pdf” …contains TYPED notes from ADOSH’s interviews with personnel from these departments…
* Yarnell Hill Fire Department
* Peeples Valley Fire Department
ADOSH also attempted to also interview people from the Congress Fire Department but then decided those interviews were NOT relevant to their investigation. ( See their notes below ).
This ADOSH document is at the following PUBLIC link…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/iWjePE8Dht/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails/L3419%20Notes%20redacted.pdf
These are not actual ‘transcripts’ of the entire conversation(s) but, rather, the complete sets of notes they did for themselves FOLLOWING all of the interviews.
NOTE about ‘redactions’ in this document…
They are NOT really redactions. All the information they tried to ‘redact’ is still right there in the Adobe PDF file. Any place you see a ‘redaction’ and you want to still read what is there… just ‘cut and paste’ the blacked out portion into any text editor and all the ‘redacted’ information is still there fully captured during the ‘cut and paste’ operation. It’s a classic mistake that some people make when they try to do redactions in an Adobe PDF file. They forget that just ‘blacking out’ the text with that simple Adobe ‘blacking’ tool doesn’t actually REMOVE it.
NOTE: The only things ADOSH attempted to redact in this document ( but failed to do so in a successful manner ) are simply phone numbers and web site addresses. There do NOT seem to be any significant ‘blocks of notes’ being redacted at all.
Their interview notes start on page 2 of the document…
** Yarnell Hill Fire Department
Yarnell Fire Department Personnel:
Captain Brad Haggard
Captain Sam Portillo
Daniel Harrison
Kristee Lewis
Ryan Gardner
Paul Murray
Aileen Casillas
Dani Koile
Anthony McComack
Brad Ruggles
7/18/2013 – An opening conference was conducted with the Yarnell Fire District/Yarnell Fire Department on July 18, 2013 at 1005 by Marshall Krotenberg and Bruce Hanna with Fire Chief Jim Koile. Chief Koile completed an information sheet and provided a photo that he took of the lightning caused fire at the time of the lightning strike.
Chief Koile stated that his station served as the Incident Command Post for the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 29 and early on June 30 (until 1020) until the ICP was relocated to Model Creek School in Peeples Valley, AZ which is about four miles to the north. Chief Koile mentioned that his crew was sent to various locations during the fire and that we should contact Captain Brad Haggard for further information, exact assignments and employee interviews.
7/24/2013 – Spoke with Yarnell Fire Department Captain Brad Haggard at 1320 about fire personnel and responsibilities assigned to Department by the IC for the Yarnell Hill Fire. Captain Haggard stated that IC ( Russ Shumate ) requested that Yarnell set up a temporary or portable water tank at the Ranch Road Restaurant adjacent to Hwy 89 and shuttle water using their water tender to a “pumpkin” set up at the Ranch Restaurant and at the Helm Ranch House.
Water shuttling took place on Saturday evening June 29, 2013 starting at 2200 for several hours and continued the next day by Captain Sam Portillo and Kristee Lewis. At some point of Sunday June 30, 2013 (1300 to 1400) the Yarnell Fire Department evacuated their station and headed to the ICP located at the Model Creek School located in Peeples Valley, AZ.
Captain Haggard stated that six Yarnell Fire Personnel were asked to prepare for the possible emergency rescue of 19 downed fire fighters and were sent back to Yarnell, however only three fire fighters had wildland gear. Conditions were too dangerous to enter the area so the team went back to Peeples Valley.
Sometime on Monday the Yarnell Fire Department returned to their station except they had no electrical power. The Fire Department continued to respond to EMS calls throughout Yarnell.
7/25/2013 at 0930 – I spoke with Captain Sam Portillo about his role in the Yarnell Hill Fire. Captain Portillo stated that he and Kristee Lewis continued to shuttle water to one portable water tank (may have been one additional portable water tank at the Boulder Springs Ranch/Helm Ranch House) with the water tender starting at 0600 on June 30, 2013 until evacuated later that day to Peeples Valley.
On July 1, 2013 Captain Portillo stated that he provided support to hand crews including structural protection and hot spotting in the Town of Yarnell. He stated that there were several hot shot crews on site but only recalls the Florence Hot Shot Crew.
Kristee Lewis stated that she had worked with both the Blue Ridge and Granite Mountain IHC at a fire in New Mexico (Thompson Ridge) prior to the Doce Fire and the Yarnell Hill Fire.
** Peeples Valley Fire Department
Peeples Valley Fire Department
17425 Burning Bush Drive
Peeples Valley, AZ
928-427-xxxx ( Redacted )
Captain Patrick McCray
Acting Fire Chief Shane Chaves for the Yarnell Hill Fire
Ken Shoup – Volunteer fire fighter who has a home in Peeples Valley,
AZ, works for the City of Scottsdale.
On July 18, 2013 at approximately 11:00 ADOSH investigators Marshall Krotenberg and Bruce Hanna arrived at the Peeples Valley Fire Department to conduct an opening conference with the Fire Captain Patrick McCray. Both doors to the facility were locked.
I contacted the Peeples Valley Fire Department on Thursday July 25, 2013 and left a message for Fire Captain Patrick McCray.
I spoke with Shane Chaves today July 29, 2013. Mr. Chaves works for the Yavapai Sheriff’s Department and was the Acting Fire Chief with the Peeples Valley Fire Department during the Yarnell Hill Fire but as of July 25, 2013 he resigned his position and is no longer affiliated with Peeples Valley Fire Department. Subsequently Mr. Chaves may have returned to Peeples Valley Fire Department as an EMT or Paramedic.
Mr. Chaves stated that he had four firefighters and two engines assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire (Structure Group 1) who were working off of Shrine Road west of Yarnell on the south end of a dozer line while Granite Mountain IHC was working on the north end of the dozer line with the Blue Ridge Hotshots. I will have to verify with Peeples Valley Fire Fighters if any contact was made with Granite Mountain IHC. Interviews had Granite Mountain assigned to the east side of the ridge and dozer line and Blue Ridge Hotshots working the east end of the dozer line in the flat off the ridge. The plan was to join the two together.
7/29/2013 opening conference with Captain McCray
Information sheet partially completed by Bruce Hanna
Employee interviews – spoke with Captain McCray and Fire Captain Jake Moder
Four man crew and two engines were at the Yarnell Hill Fire assigned to
Structural 1 protection and fire line construction and were working off of
Shrine road waiting for a Dozer to arrive.
Fire Captain Jake Moder 928-910-xxxx ( Redacted )
Fire Captain Ron Smith 928-231-xxxx ( Redacted )
Bob Brandon 928-671-xxxx ( Redacted )
Matt Keehner 928-308-xxxx ( Redacted )
July 29, 2013 – spoke with Jake Moder. Captain Moder stated that Peeples Valley was assigned by BLM to the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013 at 0400 and was to report to Model Creek School at 0730. A briefing was held at 0800, crew was assigned to Structure 1 protection in Yarnell. IC Task Force Leader was Trainee Tyson Esquibel from Peoria Fire Department. Crew was stationed on Shrine Road waiting for a Dozer. Dozer eventually dug a fireline that ended at a wash. Lots of chainsaw work being done by the crew to tie into ridge north of Yarnell. Made contact with a spotter from Central Yavapai Fire District. Also had contact with Blue Ridge IHC and Sun City West. Never made contact with Granite Mountain IHC but were maybe 3/4 of a mile from the ridge and box canyon where the fire fighters were trapped. Matt Keehner was assigned to scout area and serve as a temporary lookout and was assisted by CYFD fire fighter. Wind shifted at 1545 and everyone immediately evacuated the area.
Mr. Moder stated that he and the three other fire fighters were interviewed together on July 10, 2013 for about 45 minutes by the investigation team assembled by the Arizona State Forestry Division.
** Congress Fire Department
Congress Fire District
Congress Fire Department
26733 Santa Fe Road
Congress, AZ 85332
928-427-xxxx ( Redacted )
Opening conference
Information sheet
No contact made with Congress Fire District as of July 30, 2013.
The Congress Fire District may not be necessary for our investigation.
——————————————————————-
END OF ADOSH INTERVIEW NOTES WITH
YFD, PEEPLES VALLEY FD, CONGRESS FD.
——————————————————————
SUMMARY
I still think the most IMPORTANT thing here is the fact that ( thanks to Joy Collura and Marti Reed ) we now have incontrovertible photographic evidence that BLM Helicopter N14HX was, in fact, ‘Drop Capable’ all day on Saturday… but that capability was NEVER used by IC Russ Shumate until it was too late to make any difference.
Shumate only told the Yarnell Fire Department to ‘create a dip-site’ AFTER the small 2-4 acre fire had ‘escaped’ and ‘jumped a containment road’ up there on the western ridge… but by the time that ‘dip site’ was ready ( a pumpkin at the Boulder Springs Ranch? )… darkness was approaching and it was too late to finally use the N14HX Water Drop capability that Shumate COULD have been using all day long.
BLM Rep Dean Fernandez ( who had been sent to Yarnell as an additional ‘IC’ resource to assist Shumate ) had urged Shumate SEVERAL TIMES on Saturday to ‘set up a pumpkin’ and get some ‘Bucket Drops’ going to support the Lewis DOC crew… but in Dean Fernandez’s own words… (quote) “It wasn’t happening”.
From ADOSH’s own notes taken during their interview with Dean Fernandez…
“Dean was acting as a Rep and suggested several times ( to IC Russ Shumate ) to get a pumpkin set up, but it wasn’t happening.”
Thanks so much for this, WTKTT!!
I hadn’t even seen that L3419 Notes redacted.pdf document. Sometimes it’s really hard to know by file names what’s in the file and whether it’s worth downloading.
It’s been a really long day for me, and I’m increasingly brain-dead, but I have two comments, at this point.
The first is that this whole conversation we have been having via these photos really underscores what Joy has written periodically about the importance of people sharing their photos/videos from the fire. She had written something along the lines of “You just never know–something you have might be really really important.”
In this case, that has really been true. Just ONE photo. Showing that helicopter sitting there with that Bambi Bucket. Leading to a whole conversation, and looking back into interviews about a subject we had discussed before, but just didn’t have that piece of EVIDENCE that that helicopter was completely capable of being utilized to help the Lewis Crew put out that fire on Saturday.
But it wasn’t.
And, again I ask, HOW MANY DOLLARS were paid out to have that helicopter and it’s helitack crew sit there most of Saturday doing mostly nothing, and also sit there most of Sunday doing mostly nothing?
Oh, but let’s save $$$$$ by assigning a SHORT Type 2 IMT to the fie instead of a LONG Type 2 IMT to the fire for Sunday.
Which leads to my second point.
I can now “officially” add this to my very large collection of Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr’s having to do with the fatal mismanagement of this fire.
So, thanks Joy, for your persistence!!
And it’s always important to remember, when discussing anything having to with Tyson Esquibel–
He was ABSOLUTELY SURE the Granite Mountain Buggies were staged at the Boulder Springs Ranch around mid-morning on June 30.
And we haven’t even begun to talk about the photos taken of the fire during the night of June 29.
They could have EASILY been using that helicopter to fly bucket drops on that fire that late afternoon/evening.
But, hey, we needz AIR TANKERS!
Note Helicopter costs
Normally the Helicopter is guaranteed a 2 Hour per day contract cost
flight time rate per hour.
Crew cost would be based on a 12 hr. shift roughly 20 to 25 dollars per hour per person.
I do agree the Helicopter should have been utilized as a cheaper resource than Air Tankers and much more a asset to hand crews.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 27, 2014 at 11:07 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Normally the Helicopter is guaranteed a 2 Hour per
>> day contract cost flight time rate per hour.
>> Crew cost would be based on a 12 hr. shift
>> roughly 20 to 25 dollars per hour per person.
Thank you, Mr. Powers… but here is another question for you.
Helicopter N14HX was ALREADY ‘on contract’ with the Federal BLM and its Helibase was south of Yarnell, down near Congress. The logs say that it was simply ‘on loan’ to Arizona Forestry from BLM that day… but the fire WAS pretty much just as much threatening BLM land as AZ State land.
In that case… would there really have been any COSTS at all incurred by IC Russ Shumate for whatever he was going to do with that BLM contract chopper?
Would it have made ANY difference ( cost-wise ) to IC Russ Shumate if he HAD been using it for ‘Bucket Drops’ instead of just ‘Crew Shuttle’ that day?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I do agree the Helicopter should have been utilized
>> as a cheaper resource than Air Tankers and much
>> more a asset to hand crews.
At 10:00 AM on Saturday morning… Dean Fernandez and Chopper N14HX did that ‘recon flight’ of the fire ( See Dean Fernandez photos ).
There was basically NO visible flame whatsoever… but the Fernandez photos show clearly that SOME parts of the ‘smolder’ were on that WEST side of the ridge in almost ‘cliff-like’ areas that you could not possibly reach with any ‘men on the ground’.
It was perfectly obvious, even at 10:00 AM, that the best way ( and the SAFEST way ) to deal with some of that ‘smolder’ up there would have been ‘Bucket Drops’.
It never happened.
Even the SEATS that were hitting the ‘smolder’ weren’t able to hit some areas up there. Only some ‘Bucket Drops’ would have been able to do that.
Shumate seemed totally unaware of this fact all day long.
If the Helicopter was at the fire with crew then the cost was on the State for all associated time.
Bucket drops would have been more effective in the rocks and small flare ups
Not a good management of tools available to the fire.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 27, 2014 at 1:14 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>>> If the Helicopter was at the fire with
>> crew then the cost was on the State
>> for all associated time.
Thank you!
So… key phrase here is “ALL associated time”.
That means it didn’t make any difference ( COST wise ) if Shumate HAD been using N14HX for ‘Bucket Drops’ that day… and whatever reason he was NOT using that resource which was available to him ALL DAY on Saturday couldn’t have had anything to do with any worries about ‘jacking up the bill’ for the fire on his watch… Correct?
I’m not Bob, but I would say, unequivocally, YES.
That’s what all those complicated cooperative agreements are all about.
When somebody’s crew gets assigned to somebody else’s fire, they’re clocked onto that somebody else’s fire’s payroll, until the time they’re demobilized from that fire.
No matter what they’re doing or not doing.
Shumate had that helicopter and that crew signed, sealed, and delivered to that fire that day, whether he used them to put out that fire or not.
Which, apparently he didn’t. And neither did Roy Hall the next day.
AZFire really did a GREAT job of saving money!!
SMH
(Twitter lingo for Shake My Head)
>> Marti said…
>>
>> When somebody’s crew gets assigned
>> to somebody else’s fire, they’re clocked
>> onto that somebody else’s fire’s payroll,
>> until the time they’re demobilized
>> from that fire.
>>
>> No matter what they’re doing or not doing.
Exactly.
I was just trying to make sure that when it comes to renting a ‘chopper’… that it doesn’t get all ‘task specific’.
In other words… “You have us rented for crew transport duties at $XX.XX per hour”.
If you want us to start doing ‘Bucket Drops”… that’s going to raise the invoicing to
$XX.XX per hour ( or even $XX.XX per DROP ).
The other ‘interesting’ thing here is that according to former Yarnell Fire Chief Peter Andersen’s interview with Mr. John Dougherty… the BLM folks had that N14HX chopper stationed down there at that helibase in Congress for quite some time ( like months ) and the BLM people had ALREADY obtained permission from local Ranchers to use their ponds as ‘dip sites’ anytime they wanted to.
That specifically included that ‘Horseshoe Dip’ ( on the Maughn Ranch? ) that was then put to use all day Sunday.
Apparently… BLM Rep Dean Fernandez ( who was assigned to help Russ Shumate as IC that day ) did NOT know about this ‘in place’ agreements and was still urging Shumate all day Saturday to get a ‘pumpkin’ set up as a ‘dip site’. Very strange.
If Chief Andersen is right… that’s a pretty big screw-up even on BLM Rep Dean Fernandez’s
part.
WTKTT
Gotcha.
WTKTT
Just watched the video, a couple of times.
You said, ” the BLM folks had that N14HX chopper stationed down there at that helibase in Congress for quite some time ( like months ) and the BLM people had ALREADY obtained permission from local Ranchers to use their ponds as ‘dip sites’ anytime they wanted to.
That specifically included that ‘Horseshoe Dip’ ( on the Maughn Ranch? ) that was then put to use all day Sunday.”
We don’t know that the Moki helitack and its helicopter was stationed in Wickenburg (not Congress) for months.
They normally worked out of the area on the border of Arizona and Utah. I don’t know why, or for long, they were staged at Wickenburg
Other than that, yes.
That video is worth watching now, all things considered.
I really believe the most IMPORTANT “Lessons Learned” of this fire is to look UP the chain of command, rather than DOWN it.
Yes, the Granite Mountain Hotshots made their fatal decisions.
But that was in the context of a completely mismanaged–from the get-go–fire.
And that’s EXACTLY what the SAIT–with all the stuff they had access to but didn’t acknowledge, much less release–was very much in the business of protecting, fire-fighter (and other human beings’) safety be damned.
And that’s also EXACTLY what the US Forest Service doesn’t want any “Lessons Learned” publications/conversations to look at, much less contemplate.
Yes, thanks WTKTT. I stand corrected! I greatly appreciate your willing-ness to dig up the info regarding the YFD interview. While I had remembered Shumate’s log info, I either missed, or had totally forgotten about the YFD interviews.
You have the unique ability to be able to remember, and subsequently retrieve info in short-order from the entire ten chapters (roughly 10,000 comments) of this site. I think I speak for most of us when I say we don’t have that ability, and it’s certainly nice to have someone around who does.
I do, however, stand by my statements in regards to what a poor decision it was to put a dip-site at BSR.
Reply to TTWARE post on November 26, 2014 at 9:34 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> Thanks WTKTT.
No problem. It’s still actually VERY confusing what was happening on Saturday.
Even above… notice the confusion about whether there really were ever TWO pumpkins set up… or not… and the continual inability of these investigators to ask even the simple questions it would take to clear things like that up.
Consequently… there actually is NO ‘direct statement’ from either Shumate or any of the YFD to the effect of…
“IC Russ Shumate asked us to create a ‘dip site’ and we decided to set up a pumpkin at the Boulder Springs Ranch to be used specifically for that.”
However… I do think ALL the evidence and testimony surrounding that moment on Saturday establishes that IS exactly what happened.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> You have the unique ability to be able to remember,
>> and subsequently retrieve info in short-order from the
>> entire ten chapters (roughly 10,000 comments) of this
>> site. I think I speak for most of us when I say we don’t
>> have that ability, and it’s certainly nice to have someone
>> around who does.
It’s no secret and certainly not magic.
I follow Albert Einstein’s advice. He once said…
“I never remember what I can lookup”.
The ‘secret’ is just ( whenever one of these chapters closes )… just do a ‘Select All’ in your Browser… and cut/paste the entire chapter onto the end of one large document that contains ALL of the chapters.
Then you have just one, complete document to search if you are ‘looking’ for anything in any chapter.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> I do, however, stand by my statements in regards to
>> what a poor decision it was to put a dip-site at BSR.
As well you should.
Pretty much EVERYTHING that was happening on Saturday falls into the “What were they thinking?” category… with the ANSWER being that they weren’t putting much thought into anything at all.
How many of the Llamas do you think would have had heart-attacks out there at that ranch if Shumate actually DID start using it for ‘dip site’?
I think Lee and DJ Helms’ monetary damages in their suit against the State of Arizona would have been about TWICE as much as it already is.
I’m SURE more about this Helicopter N14HX, the ‘Bucket Drops’ ( or the lack thereof ) and this whole ‘pumpkin/dip site’ thing on Saturday is going to be right up-front-and-center in the courtroom during the property damage lawsuit proceedings. Maybe we wil get the ‘full scoop’ then.
You wrote:
“The ‘secret’ is just ( whenever one of these chapters closes )… just do a ‘Select All’ in your Browser… and cut/paste the entire chapter onto the end of one large document that contains ALL of the chapters.”
Ahhhhhh, so THAT’S how you do it. Hmmmmmm. Good advice!
And you write:
:How many of the Llamas do you think would have had heart-attacks out there at that ranch if Shumate actually DID start using it for ‘dip site’?
I think Lee and DJ Helms’ monetary damages in their suit against the State of Arizona would have been about TWICE as much as it already is.”
Yes, but think about the PHOTO/MEDIA OPPS!!!!
Actually… all of this really just proves that ( to this day ) we really haven’t heard ‘the full story’ from Lee and DJ Helm.
I do believe the ‘totality of the evidence’ indicates that YFD was setting up that pumpkin at the BSR in direct response to IC Russ Shumates request/order that they ‘set up a dip-site’….
…but it’s also inconceivable to me that they would have been setting it up at the not-all-that-large Ranch clearing… mere yards away from Llama barns… and would NOT have gotten specific permission for that from the Helms’ and explained that Helicopters were going to basically be hovering just dozens of feet above the barns.
I believe Joy mentioned that Lee and DJ Helm were ‘writing a book’ about their experiences that weekend.
I hope they DO… and I hope it has a lot more ‘detail’ in it about what went on out at that Ranch that we have been allowed to know so far.
Books. Yep. Helms, among others.
And thanks to you, TTWARE, for asking those questions and saying those things that caused WTKTT to correct “the records.”
WTKTT has to have the most awesome timelines and databases regarding this fire than anyone anywhere.
I always feel indebted to WTKTT to be able to help me correct my fuzziness on things.
Even when I strongly disagree, as I currently am doing, with him.
That’s how we collectively wrestle this woefully badly fought and investigated fire to some semblance of giving up the truth.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 26, 2014 at 11:03 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I always feel indebted to WTKTT to be able to help me
>> correct my fuzziness on things.
>>
>> Even when I strongly disagree, as I currently am doing, with him.
Marti… if you are referring to the whole ‘what did McDonough hear’ thing… we do NOT disagree. Not really.
I am the one who first REPORTED about this ‘conundrum’ whereby the material being released via FOIA was not supporting certain unequivocal statements being made in the ‘official’ SAIR and ADOSH WFAR documents.
It’s TRUE. Some things that any reasonable person are supposed to believe are ‘statements of fact’ in highly funded ‘official reports’ are NOT fully supported by anything being released via FOIA.
I still don’t think that means those statements are FALSE… or are not accurate reflections of what some people DID testify to.
It’s ( at best ) just more proof that we still don’t have the ‘full story’… or the ‘fully evidence’ that others have in their possession.
>> That’s how we collectively wrestle this woefully badly fought and
>> investigated fire to some semblance of giving up the truth.
Yes.
Regarding Brendan McDonough….
FIRST:
Robertthesecond states below that “According to two separate Arizona Municipal/Structure/Wildland Fire Department Battalion Chiefs, GMHS survivor Brendan McDonough was deposed on or about the week of the last week in October or the first week in November.”
I am being advised that Brendan has NOT yet been deposed in any civil lawsuit, and I have been informed that Brendan’s deposition has not even been SCHEDULED at this point (it can often be well over a year after a civil lawsuit is filed before anyone is deposed). My impression is that my sources (who obviously cannot be named) are folks who are in a position to have accurate information on this topic.
SECOND:
My personal view is that it is… needlessly cruel to suggest or imply (without a credible first-hand basis in relevant fact as opposed to rumor) that Brendan is somehow deliberately refusing to provide important information regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. Remember that John Dougherty was a producer of the little film regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire in which Brendan appears and seems to be candidly providing information regarding the YHF as best Brendan likely can (given Brendan’s trauma and communication style). One can only assume that Dougherty had some input regarding the questions that should be asked of Brendan for that film, and we have no reason to believe that Brendan refused to answer any question posed to him for that film. Therefore, other than rumor, innuendo, and supposition, what reason do folks have for believing that Brendan is deliberately withholding important information? None. So why are various folks (other than the families of the deceased hotshots) suggesting or implying that Brendan is deliberately withholding important material information regarding the YHF given that these types of allegations, intimations, and suggestions about Brendan appear (as best I can tell) to be incredibly hurtful to Brendan or his inner circle?
My personal opinion (at least at this point, based on the little any of us can glean) is that Brendan has been as accurate and as honest as he is currently able, and my personal view – with all due respect to Brendan – is that any perceived lack of “real-ness” or candor are likely more due to Brendan’s weaknesses in terms of communication and the level of trauma he has experienced (and continues to experience) than deliberate desire to somehow withhold important material information.
THIRD:
According to the empirical research (and speaking generally), eyewitness recall can often tend to be notoriously unreliable and inaccurate (even when the eyewitness claims to be SURE of what he/she saw and even when the eyewitness is the most sincere, honest person with absolutely no reason to lie). This issue of eyewitness [un]reliability can be compounded when the person asking the questions is not particularly expert in human behavior and the ways to try to mitigate (to the extent possible) eyewitness [un]reliability. So even if Brendan were asked rounds upon rounds of questions, and he answered as honestly and as accurately as he possibly could, the reality is that such an information dump might well be 100% unhelpful and inaccurate.
In my world, it makes sense to treat someone like Brendan – who has obviously been through a huge, huge trauma – with kid gloves, particularly when there is no credible, fact-based reason to suspect that the poor kid is deliberately lying or withholding important, helpful, material information. But maybe I’m just weird like that…. 😉
P.S. This blog comment is not intended to suggest that the families of the deceased GM 19 are doing the wrong thing in asking questions. I am in no position to comment on anything the family members are saying or doing – my heart weeps for them. Rather, it is when other folks (not the families) suggest that poor Brendan is deliberately withholding important information (without having a credible factual basis for making such a suggestion) that I take pause.
Put me on the stand and under oath or by a trusted person who does polygraphic that the information provided by Joy A Collura on this site is facts in regards to Donut. I also want people to note Elizabeth is stating misinformation in regards to John Dougherty anf Donuts interview for weather channel piece. You make your choice if you want to BELIEVE. in her comments on Donut but we know more behind the scenes that I stick by all public comments I hhave made on him.
Wait, what? What is the misinformation, Joy, about John Dougherty? (I took it from the credits of the film!)
Joy – at 16:34 into the film, John Dougherty’s name is listed as a producer. I am not misrepresenting that at all – I took it right from the credits!
This was not a credit in a film concern nor was it an article put out by JD concern.
If you made this comment above based on those 2 sources and not asking John Dougherty directly on the topic of Brendan and questions/etc….I can publicly state Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 3:05 PM I did ask direct questions to JD and based on his reply Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 6:05 PM as well as knowing some firefighters that not only “knew” Donut and I say “knew” because due to the aftermath of this fire and him being lawyered-up and the investigation he has shut off some outlets of folks who care about him but he seems unapproachable. See how this fire—errors made by higher ups— caused separations and tore folks apart that use to have a bond.Very sad!
After EN read the SAIR a year ago+…we heard from her.
EN stated Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 9:10 AM “Tex and Joy, hi. Thank you for being so candid about your experiences. If you would like to get what you view as the “whole story” out, I can try my best to help you..”
I Joy A. Collura can publicly state both Sonny and I did take her up on that via email and phone until the Amanda Marsh moment and I faded off.
It was not just EN but on Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:58 PM/Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:32 PM “HN” as well stated “Amanda is next on my list to contact, I’ll be grateful to see her mail” but I led people looking to see Amanda Marsh’s article (6/26/2013 7:45:00 AM
Amanda Marsh trims hooves and espouses natural horse care)
that came out the same week of the tragedy of her husband Eric Marsh.
I have not shared Amanda Marsh’s emails but did state to Allen Sinclair I had it nearby but never showed anyone not even Sonny or my husband but I did tell Allen Sinclair the very pink ribbon that Eric Marsh tied to bushes…most burned away but some saw ash hit it on a few still tied to the branch and my husband John went 22 driving miles out of his way to get that piece (after just getting off a shift of 60 driving mile shift) I wanted to give Amanda Marsh but she wanted to move on so I had 2 pieces and one went to Allen Sinclair. That boulder climbing walk/hike with him and Jim Roth, who lost a brother in the Colorado fire, who has the goal to make the best protective equipment for firefighters and his wife Staci and Fred and his wife and Holly Neill…I learned some valuable information that day. Holly always has been so kind and warm and giving above and beyond to me and so many just like EN yet when both ladies said dating back to December 2013 “this is just between us”…You did not hear John MacLean talk that way to me/Sonny or even the nation’s top lead fire fatality investigator Dr. Ted Putnam or Murray Taylor —you may hear journalists have their lingo of let this be just between us but that is because they are having articles or books done like Kevin Kennedy or Navideh Forghani—Brian Mockenhaupt/Brian Frank never was that way or Josh Eells. Fernanada Santos has been the most in touch with the hikers. Her account of us is the most in depth. Michael Kodas never was that way nor Stephen Pyne. Ered Matthews who recently lost his father and did the play THE FENCE was the ONLY one who spent time at the camp spot versus Hiking Headquarters. Both Sonny and I truly to this day appreciate Morgan Loew/Shaun and hands down him and John Dougherty should see awards for their investigative work on this fire. Morgan stated what we did on the hike was very informative and he could not get a feel for it had he not-Google his piece- there was three clips; long ones too.
United Way/Salvation Army/Red Cross/LIONS CLUB were excellent to us; EXCELLENT. Very minimal assistance seen to not just us but too many from the YHRG. I am not a huge supporter after hearing too many accounts on them. We all seem to be in agreement you see them individual; love ’em yet as a whole; ????. John Dougherty hands down was a cool hike wearing shorts and sandals even though Morgan Loew went both our way and the GMHS lunch break/fire line/helispot but Fernanda Santos not only did the WHOLE long hike but more than once…we had a good time with OSHA…YET IN ALL THESE HIKES…never did Mike Dudley or Jim Karel or any of the SAIT go up with us and we eye-witnessed it so you would think they would want to see what we saw and where/etc. Now John MacLean is just a real great man/great hike…we enjoy him. Smokejumpers (rip) Mose and Smokejumper Magazine Johnny Kirkley who came all the way from Hawaii to see us- thanks Johnny. I really liked Norbert Hoefler from Stern Magazine/Michael Kodas hike and the Weather Channel; Boss Shawn Efran, Joe and John and ex-GMHS Phil “Mando”. Worst hike and worst inaccurate article was by Shaun McKinnon from The Arizona Republic but Patrick did excellent video. I could go on all night or week on the many more we hiked but I named off the beginnings…
When you saw who I was hiking EN as we shared my private photo link to you and you were very kind to us you sent an email (Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 5:17 AM) You thought the lady we were about to hike was a man as you said “I want to tell him how this “investigation report” is very deficient, compared to my experience with “investigations” as an expert witness.” and as we hiked people you asked for their contact information. We gave it to you in hopes everyone can collaborate and reach the TRUTH but instead over time we were getting communication to “please do not give EN anyone else’s contact information PLEASE”. Both Sonny and I just figured they did not like what you had to say or your approach in making sure facts were placed out because I always felt drawn to EN that she was sensitive to the loved ones to make sure we only put out facts so I GET her saying do not put rumor out but I have spoke to enough loved ones of the GMHS that they have good discernment to know what is people just expressing…rumor…facts…and theories so one does not have to defend or protect them. Donut -who has obviously been through a huge, huge trauma as you stated also has a duty to “clear the air” because too many of us who spoke to homeowners and firefighters who “heard” alot on that fire they do feel Donut can help bring clarity. It is the right thing to do.
Question to John Dougherty—would you clear some stale air? When you called me and said Weather Channel wanted that hike and we did it and you ended up not going and we saw 2 GMHS widow, meteorologist, Willis and Wade and so on in the final video…who created that video even though the credits roll—in the end who contacted who? It will clear the air for I saw much novelty and novels tonight on that topic and instead of “hearing” about it—asking you direct here.
I asked you a question Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 3:05 PM and I won’t publicly share your reply- yet can you express when doing that Weather Channel thing—on topic of Brendan and were all your questions answered by this man and did you have the control of those questions? I know it is the Holidays and as well I know the answer but for the novelists I figured they would want to hear it.
as for Robert the Second and what he stated on here—I heard the same so if EN is hearing NEW ACCOUNT than no need to bring up Rth2nd because I supported him so even if you do not put my name on that comment it still is well known I support his comment because I heard the same.
EN stated: “I am in no position to comment on anything the family members are saying or doing – my heart weeps for them. Rather, it is when other folks (not the families) suggest that poor Brendan is deliberately withholding important information (without having a credible factual basis for making such a suggestion) that I take pause.”
my reply: This is a PUBLIC FREEDOM OF SPEECH comment area to reach clarity and so you will hear people bouncing back and forth information as we hear it or you will hear us bounce off the walls after we seem to hit dead ends…
Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:42 PM you wrote the last email I will ever read from you and as you saw I am not taking your calls.. and in my last communication to you Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:18 PM I said it “Enough times asked
And Enough said and Enough” I am done with my offline communications with EN and if she wants to write on here I will disregard any comments made my way…
Like JD states:
Please refrain from personal attacks. Stay focused on what is known and what is not known.
I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU! OR DAMAGING YOU! I am simply stating in a “just/trustworthy” court of law under oath or a trusted lie detector test I stand by what I stated on here in regards to Donut as well as support I heard the same as RTS.
We are all here to speak freely not get calls/emails saying “come to me first before posting”—I am NOT damaging you or trying to be destructive to you yet I can disagree on the phone or email or even on JD’s page—I am not a puppet and follow the strings…people who know me know I did not come to JD’s page to build offline relations but rather as I hike or get data or information or photos/videos share it. I am not believe it or not a social person but I am stretching my capabilities FOR THE FALLEN, the widows & loved ones seeking more details and all affected by the YHF!
Is it just me, or does the statement “come to me first before posting”, sound like an invitation so as to be able to possibly divert, dilute, or destroy, someone else’s post before it has a chance to see the light of day.
Ulterior motives? I just can’t get that thought out of my mind.
I am with you WTKTT.
That is the way she plays the GAME on E-Mail’
It just takes time to figure Elizabeth out ???????
Typed that wrong sorry TTWARE
shew. I do not feel ALONE now. That has always been my thinking when I heard that from the two ladies. Do you know fire author John MacLean lets us know when he is in town and if it works out we meet up—than it be—but John MacLean has never told us I am in Prescott to than through a hike learn “oh no…it’s not facts…been sleeping at the Helm’s”
To me, I rather a person do what John MacLean does- say I will be in town so and so date and in hopes to see you—Good enough. Not expected but if it happens W O N D E R F U L because he is fine company.
Yet to omit the fact and state you have to be in Prescott, ya da ya da…ya yet your at the Helm’s—not cool by me…
There should be no saying to me… “come to me first before posting”…”girl power” or “I thought we were friends”…we all should feel free to think how God gave us to think…pharmaceutically or liquor or passionately induced or not—FREE THINKING! When the Feds called us for the interview with their question (2013) (and still today unanswered my ?s) I had my own questions that never got answered:
1. Division Alpha Supervisor; where was he at 10:22am? I have phone records of my mother’s that I want to match up to what I saw on the Weavers that day.
2. Around 1550- they state the wind shifted—error it shifted at 12:14 pm and by 12:38 took over a hillside near Donut’s lookout area and exploded at 1:38pm and once Marti Reed posts Leonard Hunters three photos it has the EXACT timestamp to match that 1:38pm. Privately I emailed over 1,000 in regards to Leonard Hunter including always Willis and the SAIT and OSHA team. I am not “hiding” the email but I have not always had the pc sit down time to copy/paste because I do not always log on to public areas to my email areas and only have access via tiny cell. Here is that same text of email here publicly:
Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 11:20 PM
I placed an ad on craigslist to assist on a project to do defensible space.
SMALL WORLD!
Who replied to the eye-witness hikers of the Yarnell fire and not even knowing WHO WAS BEHIND THE AD—
Lewis Prison Crew FireFighter Andrew Williams who fought that weekend on the YHF.
He brought up his two brothers and dad & did an excellent job as Darrell Willis said they would.
Mind you, Andrew Williams just spent a week on a Peach Springs, Arizona prescribed burn fire and came right home on the 20th evening to turn around and bust ass early morning and all day and I will enclose the property’s perimeter cameras that shows them NON STOP hauling butt.
Thank you very much for all their hard work.
Enclosed some photos.
I labelled them for you. First time for that.
EVEN SMALLER WORLD!
On November 20th evening retired 2 years Yarnell Fire Dept Volunteer Leonard Hunter who is not drawn to media accounts saw us at the Yarnell library and its forbidden to speak publicly about the fire OUT OF RESPECT for the ones who moved on so I asked Leonard if the couple he is talking to who lives on Manzanita rebuilding their secondary home was Matt? He mentioned another name. I have been looking for a Matt on Manzanita that Dr. Leroy Anderson handed me on a pink paper on who I need to meet. Leonard looked at us and said he fought on that fire and so I enclosed some of his photos in this email too.
He worked as a hose and hot spot man over by Double A Ranch from Sunday to July 4th, 2013.
He helped the Yuma firefighters. We shared has he heard the last communication where they said they were getting ready to deploy? and Leonard stated that was not their last communications.
He said the radios were clear not static.
He said the Yuma captain went up o Willis and said to Willis “did you hear that last call. Will said “No. I didn’t” Willis ran to his truck and grabbed a cell phone.
Leonard Hunter heard what the Yuma guy and Leonard says one of the GMHS was on the radio saying “We’re taking shelter.” again “We’re taking shelter.” and again “We’re taking shelter now.”
2-4 seconds later panicky voice “we’re covering up.” and again “we’re covering up.” and that was that. We spent from 3:45-9:45 listening to his account so there is more but dabbled on topic of WHO AND HOW God orchestrates LIFE to me.
EVEN SMALLER SMALLER WORLD!
Andrew and his brother went to Constitution Elementary too and they shared the same fond memories of Mrs. Wood.—we were neighborhood kids long ago—
Also it was great because after I saw Andrew Williams photos and videos of the YHF, I got a piece to my puzzle filled of who I saw on the mountain top with Eric Marsh;
Jake “Guad” the Lewis Crew prison crew leader. There was six men that slept on that hill that Saturday. When the Feds had us on the phone why couldn’t they explain that to us the hikers.
We answered above and beyond everyone who had questions to the fire but after seeing all the faces to the Lewis Prison Crew…wow…it brought 6-30-13 ALIVE and fresh in my head to all I saw that day
sitting on those Weavers Mountains.
For the damn folks who saw it as we were thrill seekers, we are not going to begin to tell you how many lives we saved being on that hill and forever Sonny holds a guilt that 19 he wishes he could of told them
the longer steeper route…haunts him.
EMAIL COMMUNICATIONS IN REGARDS TO DEFENSIBLE SPACE PROJECT:
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 11:03 AMFri, Is the job still available? How many acres? How thick?
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 11:22 AMI replied: “it is .28 acres
I have done a lot already which was .33 myself
what is left is loading and getting it out and a portion off las tiendas and mountainair that meets Pat Carpenter’s property that needs removal
I have 1 dead pine tree and we had to pawn chainsaw to help some locals one month so we lack that right now to rid of tree
Just send us how many hours you can do with loading and removal of it or even burning it in front in the fire pit
whatever works.”
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 11:51 AM I have a chainsaw. I can come and load two trucks and burn the rest and remove the pine tree. All for $300. This price is for four people. 928-460-1602
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:02 PM Ok let me ask homeowner. I live in Congress and be there later for town meeting so let you know later
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:19 PM Alright.
On Nov 21, 2014 at 9:10 AM Darrell Willis, Division Chief stated: “The Lewis Crew is a good crew and they will work hard, I know that from my interactions on defensible space jobs in Prescott and on fire assignments. They helped us out with the Arizona Wildfire Academy.”
Since the fire Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) and Joy A. Collura helped the community as well as all over the state of Arizona, Utah & Nevada on defensible space/clean-up even did the most dangerous of properties and as well people who were stubborn to understand it does begin at home.
You see, Joy A Collura lives in a HOA regulated subdivision so she does not have to concern herself to DEFENSIBLE SPACE but after seeing the heartaches of Yarnell and how can we avoid it again.
Number one I sent out a FOIA for public information on a rumor of a grant that was given to Yarnell for defensible space out beyond the residential community before that fire.
#2 I did all I could to help give hope throughout the community.
#3 I buried over thirty since the fire so we got an Arizona Board Air Quality Specialist and as well a Respiratory man and since that hike Zack Ashoor passed on.
#4 We hope in time to have some trusted soil testers to check the soil as well as water.
#5 We hope to keep sharing that SAFETY MATTERS all around not just with our homes and properties including investment properties that neglect their areas as bad as some areas of BLM and State Land but as well with bringing together the community to the firefighters as well as making the higher ups responsible and call attention to them the deficiencies in wildland firefighter safety presented by current higher up systems. Time to demand changes in policy and practices so that wildland firefighters and public safety is truly the number one priority in all higher up actions vs. the obvious money market game we have been seeing.
#6 Create a strong foundation recognizing how God has led each person to me and how well the pieces of the puzzle are coming together because people in His time share to me their accounts and photos/videos.
We have learned if they share to me with such strong discerment I handle the information with heart and circulate it out to the right people investigating this from loved ones of the GMHS, people who were affected in the fire and to the nations’s top lead fire fatality expert Dr. Ted Putnam. This has never been a theory-game for me like some do nor a blame game but fact-based document information of the truth.
Reflecting back on the topic we did all the long hours and hard labor for free. Why? Alot of folks after the YHF had a hatred for the firefighters for not saving nineteen lives and alot of homes and properties and people were affected by the Yarnell Hill Fire. We can go until the end of time on theories but it is my hope to change from the higher ups on how they fight wildfires.
My purpose is not just to gather photos from any possible area or hiking God knows HOW MANY to the Weaver Mountain Mountain top. It is not fair for the people who really loved these men to have to go through Yarnell Chief Ben Palm just to make a visit on record to see their loved ones. I show them the legal way out and have a mountain top view. This is a personal tragedy as well as a national one so these loved ones
learn from me ways they can at least see the area from above without always having a melt down and have to call the chief to go out there. How many of you reading this know I hiked you because God led it that way. How many of you were choked up and it was not about being with the hikers but learning the right way to avoid legal concerns and/or invading personal property’s privacy.
I want to review and propose to legislation or other policy changes related to wildfire
prevention, mitigation, and related matters, including public safety and forest health issues, local Firefighter Safety Grant Programs, Wildland Firefighters Death Benefit Payments may they be part time or seasonal, corrections to Prescribed Burning Program Laws, Honor Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots and as well the many crews that fought on that fire that seem to be forgotten who I personally felt being on that Weaver Mountains deserved heroic recognition but did not see it yet the higher ups did—???, land management practices, wildfire Insurance and Forest Health Tax Force, public Access to wildfire-related information that should not be kept to the higher ups, Firefighting aircrafts MUST publicly record all events from the air for the public to view, prohibit or restrict the ability of agricultural producers to conduct burning on their properties during periods when red flag warnings or fire weather watches have been issued by the National Weather Service, and do not MAGICALLY vanish the satellite imagery that was once available online to now you cannot see it.
Until I see SIGNIFICANT CHANGES to existing procedures than you will SEE me around and HEAR my voice!
I also believe there has to be a more serious independent investigative team for any firefighter harmed by a fire in any manner than what is being orchestrated today!Also when a fatality happens people need to stop guessing or theorizing or filling in the gaps or creating separation of homes vs. lives and “move on Joy” like I hear alot.
How many say you are a Congress woman, why do you waste your time still on the Yarnell Fire?
To a common person it would blow your mind; you have here a disbaled vet on a fixed income and a housewife/desert walker who the two together the amount of monies put out of our pockets not just in time donated and funds donated but the whole package from selling off assets Joy A Collura did just to pay $300 to the Williams Family to help assist in what Sonny and Joy freely do for others as all of us spent 11/21/14 and 11/22/14 creating defensible space on .61 acres of Yarnell Resident Steven King’s property. Sonny and I are very grateful for this week and seeing about 17 cars stop by, later email or call to soften the hardness of homeowners views of the very men who fought the YHF and explain it is the higher ups that need the lessons taught and change the way they fight wildfires.
The horno in photo Sonny made when he heard Tommy Meredith and Mayor were possibly heading to Yarnell at some point and so that was the TOUGHEST defensible space area to clean…I go a little better than Andrew as I pull out weeds and dry grass and all and just plain dirt again.
Well, again a chapter ended for Sonny and I—or maybe the book. He said he had too many folks in his space this week and he is off to Mexico. He said head to Congress girl…I am out.
that’s the latest.
Take the information and photos and do what you want but I felt this defensible space stuff is PRINT worthy and touching…YHRG stated by text that Kari Flippen was wrong to tell us the YHRG would pay for defensible space fees. So if anyone else hears that information just rumor.
The YHRG does not help people with property defensible space. I could care less if they end up paying like I said I will keep selling assets until I am broke if I can just see the higher ups do their part and make the proper changes then every dime I spent or more like many many many thousands; many…I wish a dime.
link link1 hiking link
Happy Thanksgiving!
#3 Personell? Who was directly in communication with the GMHS and Lewis crew and Blue Ridge? Heard different names stated—
#4 They said 16:04-16:37 gap in communication and I have already had in the start to now ENOUGH people state that is UNTRUE.
#5 How come the FIRST on SCENE has not had a grueling investigation on deployment site of the YHF and placement of bodies 30ft by 24ft area? How come you come up to a scene like that and do not capture first on scene videos and photos for investigation reasons.
#6 Were these men documented correctly and fully trained at the time of their deaths?
#7 I have requested a FOIA on the grants but what do I do because Stephen Pyne was limited on information but in the late 60’s there was a fire up there—where do I obtain that documented information?
#8 I am still a STRONG supporter that alot of the key answers lay in the hands of the homeowners and firefighters that were that weekend or week-any other suggestions to how to get them to come forward?
#9 Sonny felt the canyon that morning was okay to travel up where the men died but I wanted to scale boulders but any rate I hope someone helps me deeply on this—how come 19 men did not perceive that bowl to be an excessive risk so late in the day?
#10 They were in the black. Safe. What possible thing besides Sonny’s theory that an order was given could of made the men go besides what I thought at 1:38pm and the deception of the BSR/Helm’s looks closer than it is…
#11 Why is there not MUCH MORE aerial coverage at the time of incident or even between 11am-4pm before incident- I bet there is and that is being hidden—
#12 The SAIR report barely covered what we spoke about in the interview so is that them redacting/editing OR LEAVING OUT like they did so many other areas?
#13 What are the facts; more private land burned or state—we know there is not much BLM out there?
#14 How come the higher ups sent men and we know because on our hikes we found proof and since then a firefighter confirmed it but why send men in with backpack water bags when it is obvious you had the helicopter with water buckets already set to go?
#15 I am not gone until I am gone and until then I will keep educating the higher ups and the homeowners—THIS WAS INDEED AN AVOIDABLE SITUATION NOT AN ACCIDENT—BAD THING HAPPENED!
Sonny and I are going to take a few day break after this defensible space project…go look for arrowhead making material and reloading material and proper hunting tools and rocks and learning more on mine dangers and adits and maybe even have a good old cowboy campfire so be away UNLESS I get new news…When you take a FBI class or concealed weapons class you learn alot IF you have the RIGHT instructor and I was looking for the paper I needed but not yet but I did run into my class notes as we were being trained on assault …physical energy… verbal abuse… touch… mental conditioning… preparation… adrenaline… fiction based on facts was stated you will see from the higher ups and I saw that in my notes and thought SHIT…just like here on this fire. There is Criminal Law and Civil Law and to me what happened and hiding the important information has turned this in my mind; criminal. We had 11 shooters that day of class—and the topic was reactive instead of proactive and mind control. I had it in my mind I was going to shoot bullseye with my eyes closed and MY way not the instructors so again to me it does depend on your instructor because sometimes you have to make a decison above and beyond what your instructor shares chain of command or not- called survival. I did it MY way and got Bullseye and I did it his way and was off the bullseye a little over an inch so then that is where perception comes in because I closed my eyes for MY way and for his way I had my eyes open as instructed but either way the instructor has to trust the student too because God made us all different. I shoot better when I do not aim and fire; I just mentally lock in and close my eyes and always right on. My concern though and now to my point the GMHS were trained by who? who trained Eric Marsh? What was the order of instructors like who trained Marsh than who did Marsh train?
In the evaluations I did read I felt there is much more behind the scenes going that just some written evaluation…okay back to garage. I have a 1 hour to find the paper and wash up and head up to Yarnell to do defensible space—and make our muddy buddy Jesus for the nativity…
Oh one more thing…Arizona Highways did an interview at my home in Spring 2012 and in that interview I wanted to make the magazine and show more aware of the pioneers and elders yet always been a huge question throughout the community on Sonny and Joy and number one question asked to my husband “what do you think of Sonny and Joy…the hikers?”…he always answers you just have to know the heart and innocence of Joy but many times my husband thinks its like watching an old episode of the Twilight Zone- next stop “will-a-bee”…never ending circle train ride….yet he knows HAPPY TRAILS is what it is all about…I should of been back in the late 1800s into the 1940’s should of been my time—I am not of this modern world of shhh and whisper/whisper…I had a high society lady call me alot and she would whisper and I’d say why you whispering and she says I just adore you as my friend but my husband well he just cannot know because Joy you are not of wealth and society ways of things and I reckon at that moment I felt like Lucy Honicut Marsden of the 1994 tv movie Oldest Living Confederate Widow Tells All…I learned the hoitey toitey ways to life…If you have to whisper my way or say “do not say…” than I appreciate it very much if you do not include me on your roster of folks to speak to…okay…whisper, whisper…I will never forget you Diane…classic to see from people having affairs but a lady I went hiking with and to the zoos…????
Joy,
You have the purest heart and motivation of anyone involved in this investigation.
I am glad that you are able to see through the bull-shit of those who would try to either, manipulate the facts, or control the dialog.
shew. I do not feel ALONE now. That has always been my thinking when I heard that from the two ladies. Do you know fire author John MacLean lets us know when he is in town and if it works out we meet up—than it be—but John MacLean has never told us I am in Prescott to than through a hike learn “oh no…it’s not facts…been sleeping at the Helm’s”
To me, I rather a person do what John MacLean does- say I will be in town so and so date and in hopes to see you—Good enough. Not expected but if it happens W O N D E R F U L because he is fine company.
Yet to omit the fact and state you have to be in Prescott, ya da ya da…ya yet your at the Helm’s—not cool by me…
There should be no saying to me… “come to me first before posting”…”girl power” or “I thought we were friends”…we all should feel free to think how God gave us to think…pharmaceutically or liquor or passionately induced or not—FREE THINKING! When the Feds called us for the interview with their question (2013) (and still today unanswered my ?s) I had my own questions that never got answered:
1. Division Alpha Supervisor; where was he at 10:22am? I have phone records of my mother’s that I want to match up to what I saw on the Weavers that day.
2. Around 1550- they state the wind shifted—error it shifted at 12:14 pm and by 12:38 took over a hillside near Donut’s lookout area and exploded at 1:38pm and once Marti Reed posts Leonard Hunters three photos it has the EXACT timestamp to match that 1:38pm. Privately I emailed over 1,000 in regards to Leonard Hunter including always Willis and the SAIT and OSHA team. I am not “hiding” the email but I have not always had the pc sit down time to copy/paste because I do not always log on to public areas to my email areas and only have access via tiny cell. Here is that same text of email here publicly:
Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 11:20 PM
I placed an ad on craigslist to assist on a project to do defensible space.
SMALL WORLD!
Who replied to the eye-witness hikers of the Yarnell fire and not even knowing WHO WAS BEHIND THE AD—
Lewis Prison Crew FireFighter Andrew Williams who fought that weekend on the YHF.
He brought up his two brothers and dad & did an excellent job as Darrell Willis said they would.
Mind you, Andrew Williams just spent a week on a Peach Springs, Arizona prescribed burn fire and came right home on the 20th evening to turn around and bust ass early morning and all day and I will enclose the property’s perimeter cameras that shows them NON STOP hauling butt.
Thank you very much for all their hard work.
Enclosed some photos.
I labelled them for you. First time for that.
EVEN SMALLER WORLD!
On November 20th evening retired 2 years Yarnell Fire Dept Volunteer Leonard Hunter who is not drawn to media accounts saw us at the Yarnell library and its forbidden to speak publicly about the fire OUT OF RESPECT for the ones who moved on so I asked Leonard if the couple he is talking to who lives on Manzanita rebuilding their secondary home was Matt? He mentioned another name. I have been looking for a Matt on Manzanita that Dr. Leroy Anderson handed me on a pink paper on who I need to meet. Leonard looked at us and said he fought on that fire and so I enclosed some of his photos in this email too.
He worked as a hose and hot spot man over by Double A Ranch from Sunday to July 4th, 2013.
He helped the Yuma firefighters. We shared has he heard the last communication where they said they were getting ready to deploy? and Leonard stated that was not their last communications.
He said the radios were clear not static.
He said the Yuma captain went up o Willis and said to Willis “did you hear that last call. Will said “No. I didn’t” Willis ran to his truck and grabbed a cell phone.
Leonard Hunter heard what the Yuma guy and Leonard says one of the GMHS was on the radio saying “We’re taking shelter.” again “We’re taking shelter.” and again “We’re taking shelter now.”
2-4 seconds later panicky voice “we’re covering up.” and again “we’re covering up.” and that was that. We spent from 3:45-9:45 listening to his account so there is more but dabbled on topic of WHO AND HOW God orchestrates LIFE to me.
EVEN SMALLER SMALLER WORLD!
Andrew and his brother went to Constitution Elementary too and they shared the same fond memories of Mrs. Wood.—we were neighborhood kids long ago—
Also it was great because after I saw Andrew Williams photos and videos of the YHF, I got a piece to my puzzle filled of who I saw on the mountain top with Eric Marsh;
Jake “Guad” the Lewis Crew prison crew leader. There was six men that slept on that hill that Saturday. When the Feds had us on the phone why couldn’t they explain that to us the hikers.
We answered above and beyond everyone who had questions to the fire but after seeing all the faces to the Lewis Prison Crew…wow…it brought 6-30-13 ALIVE and fresh in my head to all I saw that day
sitting on those Weavers Mountains.
For the damn folks who saw it as we were thrill seekers, we are not going to begin to tell you how many lives we saved being on that hill and forever Sonny holds a guilt that 19 he wishes he could of told them
the longer steeper route…haunts him.
EMAIL COMMUNICATIONS IN REGARDS TO DEFENSIBLE SPACE PROJECT:
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 11:03 AMFri, Is the job still available? How many acres? How thick?
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 11:22 AMI replied: “it is .28 acres
I have done a lot already which was .33 myself
what is left is loading and getting it out and a portion off las tiendas and mountainair that meets Pat Carpenter’s property that needs removal
I have 1 dead pine tree and we had to pawn chainsaw to help some locals one month so we lack that right now to rid of tree
Just send us how many hours you can do with loading and removal of it or even burning it in front in the fire pit
whatever works.”
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 11:51 AM I have a chainsaw. I can come and load two trucks and burn the rest and remove the pine tree. All for $300. This price is for four people. 928-460-1602
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:02 PM Ok let me ask homeowner. I live in Congress and be there later for town meeting so let you know later
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:19 PM Alright.
On Nov 21, 2014 at 9:10 AM Darrell Willis, Division Chief stated: “The Lewis Crew is a good crew and they will work hard, I know that from my interactions on defensible space jobs in Prescott and on fire assignments. They helped us out with the Arizona Wildfire Academy.”
Since the fire Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) and Joy A. Collura helped the community as well as all over the state of Arizona, Utah & Nevada on defensible space/clean-up even did the most dangerous of properties and as well people who were stubborn to understand it does begin at home.
You see, Joy A Collura lives in a HOA regulated subdivision so she does not have to concern herself to DEFENSIBLE SPACE but after seeing the heartaches of Yarnell and how can we avoid it again.
Number one I sent out a FOIA for public information on a rumor of a grant that was given to Yarnell for defensible space out beyond the residential community before that fire.
#2 I did all I could to help give hope throughout the community.
#3 I buried over thirty since the fire so we got an Arizona Board Air Quality Specialist and as well a Respiratory man and since that hike Zack Ashoor passed on.
#4 We hope in time to have some trusted soil testers to check the soil as well as water.
#5 We hope to keep sharing that SAFETY MATTERS all around not just with our homes and properties including investment properties that neglect their areas as bad as some areas of BLM and State Land but as well with bringing together the community to the firefighters as well as making the higher ups responsible and call attention to them the deficiencies in wildland firefighter safety presented by current higher up systems. Time to demand changes in policy and practices so that wildland firefighters and public safety is truly the number one priority in all higher up actions vs. the obvious money market game we have been seeing.
#6 Create a strong foundation recognizing how God has led each person to me and how well the pieces of the puzzle are coming together because people in His time share to me their accounts and photos/videos.
We have learned if they share to me with such strong discerment I handle the information with heart and circulate it out to the right people investigating this from loved ones of the GMHS, people who were affected in the fire and to the nations’s top lead fire fatality expert Dr. Ted Putnam. This has never been a theory-game for me like some do nor a blame game but fact-based document information of the truth.
Reflecting back on the topic we did all the long hours and hard labor for free. Why? Alot of folks after the YHF had a hatred for the firefighters for not saving nineteen lives and alot of homes and properties and people were affected by the Yarnell Hill Fire. We can go until the end of time on theories but it is my hope to change from the higher ups on how they fight wildfires.
My purpose is not just to gather photos from any possible area or hiking God knows HOW MANY to the Weaver Mountain Mountain top. It is not fair for the people who really loved these men to have to go through Yarnell Chief Ben Palm just to make a visit on record to see their loved ones. I show them the legal way out and have a mountain top view. This is a personal tragedy as well as a national one so these loved ones
learn from me ways they can at least see the area from above without always having a melt down and have to call the chief to go out there. How many of you reading this know I hiked you because God led it that way. How many of you were choked up and it was not about being with the hikers but learning the right way to avoid legal concerns and/or invading personal property’s privacy.
I want to review and propose to legislation or other policy changes related to wildfire
prevention, mitigation, and related matters, including public safety and forest health issues, local Firefighter Safety Grant Programs, Wildland Firefighters Death Benefit Payments may they be part time or seasonal, corrections to Prescribed Burning Program Laws, Honor Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots and as well the many crews that fought on that fire that seem to be forgotten who I personally felt being on that Weaver Mountains deserved heroic recognition but did not see it yet the higher ups did—???, land management practices, wildfire Insurance and Forest Health Tax Force, public Access to wildfire-related information that should not be kept to the higher ups, Firefighting aircrafts MUST publicly record all events from the air for the public to view, prohibit or restrict the ability of agricultural producers to conduct burning on their properties during periods when red flag warnings or fire weather watches have been issued by the National Weather Service, and do not MAGICALLY vanish the satellite imagery that was once available online to now you cannot see it.
Until I see SIGNIFICANT CHANGES to existing procedures than you will SEE me around and HEAR my voice!
I also believe there has to be a more serious independent investigative team for any firefighter harmed by a fire in any manner than what is being orchestrated today!Also when a fatality happens people need to stop guessing or theorizing or filling in the gaps or creating separation of homes vs. lives and “move on Joy” like I hear alot.
How many say you are a Congress woman, why do you waste your time still on the Yarnell Fire?
To a common person it would blow your mind; you have here a disbaled vet on a fixed income and a housewife/desert walker who the two together the amount of monies put out of our pockets not just in time donated and funds donated but the whole package from selling off assets Joy A Collura did just to pay $300 to the Williams Family to help assist in what Sonny and Joy freely do for others as all of us spent 11/21/14 and 11/22/14 creating defensible space on .61 acres of Yarnell Resident Steven King’s property. Sonny and I are very grateful for this week and seeing about 17 cars stop by, later email or call to soften the hardness of homeowners views of the very men who fought the YHF and explain it is the higher ups that need the lessons taught and change the way they fight wildfires.
The horno in photo Sonny made when he heard Tommy Meredith and Mayor were possibly heading to Yarnell at some point and so that was the TOUGHEST defensible space area to clean…I go a little better than Andrew as I pull out weeds and dry grass and all and just plain dirt again.
Well, again a chapter ended for Sonny and I—or maybe the book. He said he had too many folks in his space this week and he is off to Mexico. He said head to Congress girl…I am out.
that’s the latest.
Take the information and photos and do what you want but I felt this defensible space stuff is PRINT worthy and touching…YHRG stated by text that Kari Flippen was wrong to tell us the YHRG would pay for defensible space fees. So if anyone else hears that information just rumor.
The YHRG does not help people with property defensible space. I could care less if they end up paying like I said I will keep selling assets until I am broke if I can just see the higher ups do their part and make the proper changes then every dime I spent or more like many many many thousands; many…I wish a dime.
link link1 hiking link
Happy Thanksgiving!
#3 Personell? Who was directly in communication with the GMHS and Lewis crew and Blue Ridge? Heard different names stated—
#4 They said 16:04-16:37 gap in communication and I have already had in the start to now ENOUGH people state that is UNTRUE.
#5 How come the FIRST on SCENE has not had a grueling investigation on deployment site of the YHF and placement of bodies 30ft by 24ft area? How come you come up to a scene like that and do not capture first on scene videos and photos for investigation reasons.
#6 Were these men documented correctly and fully trained at the time of their deaths?
#7 I have requested a FOIA on the grants but what do I do because Stephen Pyne was limited on information but in the late 60’s there was a fire up there—where do I obtain that documented information?
#8 I am still a STRONG supporter that alot of the key answers lay in the hands of the homeowners and firefighters that were that weekend or week-any other suggestions to how to get them to come forward?
#9 Sonny felt the canyon that morning was okay to travel up where the men died but I wanted to scale boulders but any rate I hope someone helps me deeply on this—how come 19 men did not perceive that bowl to be an excessive risk so late in the day?
#10 They were in the black. Safe. What possible thing besides Sonny’s theory that an order was given could of made the men go besides what I thought at 1:38pm and the deception of the BSR/Helm’s looks closer than it is…
#11 Why is there not MUCH MORE aerial coverage at the time of incident or even between 11am-4pm before incident- I bet there is and that is being hidden—
#12 The SAIR report barely covered what we spoke about in the interview so is that them redacting/editing OR LEAVING OUT like they did so many other areas?
#13 What are the facts; more private land burned or state—we know there is not much BLM out there?
#14 How come the higher ups sent men and we know because on our hikes we found proof and since then a firefighter confirmed it but why send men in with backpack water bags when it is obvious you had the helicopter with water buckets already set to go?
#15 I am not gone until I am gone and until then I will keep educating the higher ups and the homeowners—THIS WAS INDEED AN AVOIDABLE SITUATION NOT AN ACCIDENT—BAD THING HAPPENED!
Sonny and I are going to take a few day break after this defensible space project…go look for arrowhead making material and reloading material and proper hunting tools and rocks and learning more on mine dangers and adits and maybe even have a good old cowboy campfire so be away UNLESS I get new news…When you take a FBI class or concealed weapons class you learn alot IF you have the RIGHT instructor and I was looking for the paper I needed but not yet but I did run into my class notes as we were being trained on assault …physical energy… verbal abuse… touch… mental conditioning… preparation… adrenaline… fiction based on facts was stated you will see from the higher ups and I saw that in my notes and thought SHIT…just like here on this fire. There is Criminal Law and Civil Law and to me what happened and hiding the important information has turned this in my mind; criminal. We had 11 shooters that day of class—and the topic was reactive instead of proactive and mind control. I had it in my mind I was going to shoot bullseye with my eyes closed and MY way not the instructors so again to me it does depend on your instructor because sometimes you have to make a decison above and beyond what your instructor shares chain of command or not- called survival. I did it MY way and got Bullseye and I did it his way and was off the bullseye a little over an inch so then that is where perception comes in because I closed my eyes for MY way and for his way I had my eyes open as instructed but either way the instructor has to trust the student too because God made us all different. I shoot better when I do not aim and fire; I just mentally lock in and close my eyes and always right on. My concern though and now to my point the GMHS were trained by who? who trained Eric Marsh? What was the order of instructors like who trained Marsh than who did Marsh train?
In the evaluations I did read I felt there is much more behind the scenes going that just some written evaluation…okay back to garage. I have a 1 hour to find the paper and wash up and head up to Yarnell to do defensible space—and make our muddy buddy Jesus for the nativity…
Oh one more thing…Arizona Highways did an interview at my home in Spring 2012 and in that interview I wanted to make the magazine and show more aware of the pioneers and elders yet always been a huge question throughout the community on Sonny and Joy and number one question asked to my husband “what do you think of Sonny and Joy…the hikers?”…he always answers you just have to know the heart and innocence of Joy but many times my husband thinks its like watching an old episode of the Twilight Zone- next stop “will-a-bee”…never ending circle train ride….yet he knows HAPPY TRAILS is what it is all about…I should of been back in the late 1800s into the 1940’s should of been my time—I am not of this modern world of shhh and whisper/whisper…I had a high society lady call me alot and she would whisper and I’d say why you whispering and she says I just adore you as my friend but my husband well he just cannot know because Joy you are not of wealth and society ways of things and I reckon at that moment I felt like Lucy Honicut Marsden of the 1994 tv movie Oldest Living Confederate Widow Tells All…I learned the hoitey toitey ways to life…If you have to whisper my way or say “do not say…” than I appreciate it very much if you do not include me on your roster of folks to speak to…okay…whisper, whisper…I will never forget you Diane…classic to see from people having affairs but a lady I went hiking with and to the zoos…????
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 26, 2014 at 4:10 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> …when there is no credible, fact-based reason to suspect that the
>> poor kid is deliberately lying or withholding important, helpful,
>> material information.
There have ALWAYS been ‘credible, fact-based reasons’ to ‘suspect’ that Brendan has NOT told all he knows about what happened that day.
They come from BOTH of the ‘official investigations’ into the Incident.
The world waited patiently for the Arizona Forestry sponsored ‘Special Accident Investigation Team’ (SAIT) to do their job and try and determine exactly what happened that day, as they were chartered to do, PAID to do, and as they said they WOULD do in numerous press releases and official memos.
During that time… I don’t think any reasonable person was actually making ANY assumptions about what the lone survivor of that crew may or may not have heard, seen, done or knew about why all his crewmates died that afternoon.
Reasonable people were waiting for the (supposedly) professional investigation to run its course and TELL us what he might have heard, seen, or known about the details surrounding the tragedy ( if anything at all ).
When that report finally came out… it said this…
From page 24 of the Arizona Forestry sponsored
Special Accident Investigation Report ( SAIR )…
———————————————————–
BR Supt drops GM Lookout off at the Granite Mountain IHC Supt truck at about 1555 and then heads around the corner to get some of his crew to help move the Granite Mountain crew carriers. On the Granite Mountain intra-crew frequency, GM Lookout hears DIVS A and GM Capt talking about their options, whether to stay in the black or to come up with a plan to move.
———————————————————–
The same report then went on ( and went to great lengths ) to establish that the single most important thing that they could NOT determine and would ( indeed ) probably ‘never be known’ is…
WHY did they ‘move’ when they were already in a safe location?
So now… any reasonable person ( who can actually read ) had to scratch their heads.
Here ( in the same report ) we are being told they could not determine why the men moved but we are also being told the LOOKOUT himself told them he overheard them discussing if they should move or not.
So then the world waited again… until the ADOSH report came out.
Maybe THAT team of investigators would finally reveal what this one person who Arizona Forestry said testified to ‘overhearing’ one of the most critical conversations that day actually might have heard.
When the ADOSH report(s) appeared… we only got the same ‘mystery-maker’…
From page 15 of the Arizona ADOSH contracted
Wildland Fire Associates Investigation Report ( WFAR )…
———————————————————————————-
At 1555, fire was burning along the ridge north of Yarnell. The BRIHC Superintendent dropped the GM Lookout off at the GMIHC Superintendents truck. The GMIHC crew carriers were moved. On the GMIHC intracrew frequency, GM Lookout heard the DIVS A and GMIHC Captain discussing the options of whether to stay in the black or to move. (5)
Footnote (5) on that page says… (5) From ADOSH Interview with GM Lookout.
————————————————————————————
So once again we are being asked to believe that the lone survivor is now telling ANOTHER set of investigators ( in a completely separate interview with THEM ) that he did, in fact, hear Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ‘discussing their options about moving’ that day… but either did not provide any actual details… or might have even been refusing to do so.
So if you are looking for someone to BLAME for why MANY people do, in fact, believe that Brendan McDonough has still not told ‘all he knows’ with regards to the events of June 30, 2013… you don’t have to look to THIS particular online forum… or to any other online forum where this incident continues to be discussed.
Your beef should be with the State of Arizona… and the TWO ( independent ) investigations that were paid for by the State of Arizona taxpayers.
BOTH of these investigations have done nothing but leave us ALL with the impression that Brendan McDonough did, in fact, hear Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ‘discussing their options’ that day and that he *probably* knows WHY they actually decided to leave the safe black.
Brendan McDonough ( either himself or through his attorneys ) has never even DENIED these statements ( attributed directly to him ) that were published in TWO different, independent, investigation reports.
If they really were (both) FALSE statements… then he should do himself a favor and come out and say so. That would end the ‘mystery’ AND the ‘speculation’.
I they really were (both) TRUE statements… then he should one day tell everything he seems to know. It is ( and shall remain ) important that he do so.
Bingo.
Defending Brendan’s “not talking,” at this point, is helping neither Brendan (in terms of his mental/emotional health–given the USFS 2014 “encouragement” of fatality fire-fighters to TALK about their EXPERIENCES of those fires), nor the quest for the TRUTH of this fire, some of which he highly PROBABLY is in possession of.
I can totally understand that, at the times of the interviews, he was seriously traumatized. And it’s obvious that legal counsel was made available to/urged upon him, for all kinds of reasons. And some of that was, obviously, done to protect him, given his youth, innocence, trauma, etc.
But some of that was ALSO done, obviously, to protect various agencies, some of which we have, over the past YEAR, learned, are willing to twist as much as they can into pretzals in order to protect THEIR INTERESTS, the mental and physical health and safety of fire-fighters be damned.
By about March or so of this year, I started seriously questioning the wisdom of the strategy he and his legal counsel were continuing to pursue.
I think it has done NOTHING for the restoration of his emotional and mental well-being, has seriously eroded his credibility, and has been a fundamental and obvious obstacle in the pursuit of the TRUTH of this fire.
I am not seeing anywhere in the SAIT interview notes or in the ADOSH actual interview transcript where Brendan states that he heard all of what Steed and Marsh were discussing.
With ADOSH, all Brendan seemed to indicate is that those voices in the MacKenzie videos include Steed and Marsh. In the SAIT interview notes (from when they interviewed Brendan), there is nothing about him overhearing and appreciating the substance of that conversation.
I think we all agreed that the WFA report, the SAIR, and the ADOSH report are not 100% accurate, right? Such that we all presumably know enough not to trust those documents for our “facts,” no?….
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
Just applying the well known ‘Reasonable Person Standard” to the YH Fire situation would very strongly suggest that GMHS lookout, Brendan McDonough, did in fact hear what was being talked about during the “discussing their options’ radio transmissions between Marsh and Steed. Any and every WFF that was listening to the GMHS Crew Net frequency that day, is well aware of this discussion. And GMHS Lookout Brendan McDonough was certainly one of those WFF. There is even strong evidence that GMHS family, friends, and loved ones did in fact overhear this ‘discussing their options’ radio conversation during their cell phone conversations with GMHS from their perfectly good GMHS Safety Zone.
Please STOP your misinformation and go back to your web and stay there. Have a nice day.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS. YOU WILL BE SORRY YOU DID.
So what about:
“From page 24 of the Arizona Forestry sponsored
Special Accident Investigation Report ( SAIR )…
———————————————————–
BR Supt drops GM Lookout off at the Granite Mountain IHC Supt truck at about 1555 and then heads around the corner to get some of his crew to help move the Granite Mountain crew carriers. On the Granite Mountain intra-crew frequency, GM Lookout hears DIVS A and GM Capt talking about their options, whether to stay in the black or to come up with a plan to move.”
and
“From page 15 of the Arizona ADOSH contracted
Wildland Fire Associates Investigation Report ( WFAR )…
———————————————————————————-
At 1555, fire was burning along the ridge north of Yarnell. The BRIHC Superintendent dropped the GM Lookout off at the GMIHC Superintendents truck. The GMIHC crew carriers were moved. On the GMIHC intracrew frequency, GM Lookout heard the DIVS A and GMIHC Captain discussing the options of whether to stay in the black or to move. (5)
Footnote (5) on that page says… (5) From ADOSH Interview with GM Lookout.”
… are you advising us to not believe, counselor, and exactly why not?
Marti, please stop calling me that.
I’ll answer your question if you honestly want an answer, but I do not like the way that you are referring to me, and I am asking you to please stop.
You’re right, Elizabeth. My apologies.
Just looked thru the SAIT Interview Notes and both ADOSH interviews.
The only place where there is a relevant testimony by Brendan is in the SAIT Interview Notes, page 2 of Brendan’s interview:
“Blue Ridge Supt advised to Steed fire conditions and asks if they have good black. Steed says yes they have good black and can see the fire. Blue Ridge says they will move there trucks and have Brendan with them.
They got back to trucks seem a little more hurried at this point. Blue Ridge supt is going to get some drivers. I started the truck turned on the AC and made sure the truck radios were on the right Channel and volume up
Blue Ridge back with drivers drive out”
Of course, there are no transcripts of this interview, conveniently.
And the ADOSH 8-20 Interview only says this:
2012 Q2: So when you – you went and they picked you up and you moved vehicles and all that stuff that’s going on, do you know what the – what the crew was doing? Were they moving towards the ranch?
2016 A: That wasn’t relayed to me. I just told – ‘cause I knew – I knew the storm was coming in. I knew they weren’t — I mean, you don’t want to sit there and be a Chatty Cathy on the radio. ‘Cause I told them, “Hey if you guys need anything? I’ll be with Blue Ridge.” They knew that. “Um, just let me know. And I’ll get ahold of you and I’ll see you guys soon.”
And the ADOSH 10-10 interview doesn’t even ask about it anywhere.
So, technically you are correct.
My two cents worth:
So, given this, where did both SAIT and ADOSH get enough “certainty” that they both published that Brendan listened to the Conversation about the Options???
Just from him watching Chris McKenzie’s video during the interview(s)????
This is definitely weird.
And…..
I can’t IMAGINE that he “made sure the truck radios were on the right Channel and volume up” and WOULDN’T have been listening to that conversation (as any GOOD EXPERIENCED QUALIFIED fire-fighter who had been assigned to LOOKOUT would have, most assuredly been doing–oh WAIT…).
This definitely is a conundrum.
And, as WTKKT has stated, Brendan has never said that what both investigations said of him was untrue.
He hasn’t disputed that he heard that conversation.
I, personally, think he did. At least in part.
But how/why did both SAIT and ADOSH say he did, when he didn’t, apparently say that in his interviews?
Can we pleez haz a REAL INVESTIGATION of the Yarnell HIll Fire??
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 26, 2014 at 9:28 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> But how/why did both SAIT and ADOSH say he did,
>> when he didn’t, apparently say that in his interviews?
Exactly. This was all actually talked about at length a LOOONG time ago ( on this forum )… but it remains a ‘golden oldie’.
It does nothing but ‘add to the mystery’ surrounding Brendan that is the direct fault of two different Arizona agencies and the official ‘reports’ they produced.
Regardless… those statements that Brendan did, in fact, hear them ‘discussing their options’ are THERE in BOTH of those official reports. They CHOSE to include this statement without providing any detail about exactly WHAT he actually heard.
THAT is the ‘evidence’ which the poster named ‘Elizabeth’ said didn’t exist which might cause any reasonable person to conclude that either Brendan has never told everything he knows… or that he HAS… and whoever has that information is refusing to release it.
Until those statements in the officially published reports are actually refuted by Brendan himself… that remains a valid conclusion to make.
I just think truly inquiring minds need to ask, upon recognizing this little conundrum, why/how the SAIT concluded in its report (the bible of “nothing to see here, nobody did anything wrong”) something (that Brendan listened to the Marsh/Steed options conversation) that is not included in it’s “Interview Notes.”
I mean, like, is there anybody here that actually still assumes the Serious Accident Investigation Report is all that credible about details regarding this fire?
And why/how ADOSH, essentially did the same thing. They said exactly the same thing, although nowhere in their interview transcripts do they even question Brendan about this. What’s the deal with that???
And I think we need to give those questions the legitimacy they deserve, before we assume the validity of their identical (hello?) conclusions about what Brendan actually heard.
Even though, I think, we have valid reasons (including the fact that he hasn’t refuted this narrative) to believe he most likely heard at least some of it.
I, personally (your mileage may vary) think that, because he said he turned the radios up and hasn’t refuted this narrative that he heard the Options Coversation, he must have heard at least some of it.
On the other hand, it’s pretty clear that, once he was rescued by Brian and Trew, he didn’t really consider himself much of a Lookout (as, I think a truly experienced and qualified Lookout would/should have, all things considered).
And his attitude, which comes thru loud and clear, in his 8=20 ADOSH interview, that his leaders could do nothing wrong/questionable/unsafe, tells me he didn’t consider it all that necessary to pay all that much attention to what they were saying, unless they were saying something specific to him.
“Were they moving towards the ranch? That wasn’t relayed to me.”
“‘Cause I told them, “Hey if you guys need anything? I’ll be with Blue Ridge.” They knew that. “Um, just let me know.
And I’ll get ahold of you and I’ll see you guys soon.”
That hardly sounds like any kind of experienced and, thus, conscientious. concerned, feeling-all-that-responsible experience crewmember-cum-Lookout, who, understanding the gravity of the situation, would make sure he carefully listened to what his leaders were conversing about over that intracrew radio channel.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
November 27, 2014 at 2:40 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I mean, like, is there anybody here that
>> actually still assumes the Serious Accident
>> Investigation Report is all that credible
>> about details regarding this fire?
Likewise… is there anyone who still believes that the SAIT ‘Investigation Notes’ are really an accurate, complete accounting of what all the witnesses TOLD the SAIT?
If I had to flip a coin, however, and assume that SOME of what is being released has any glimmer of truth to it… my coin would land on the ‘officially published reports(s)’ versus these obviously redacted and scant ‘investigation notes’ that came out long AFTER the ‘official publications’.
So regardless of what the chicken-scratch, butchered notes say… the ‘official reports’ are the ones that still state ( unequivocally ) that Brendan McDonough did, in fact, hear Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ‘discussing their options and making a plan to leave the safe black’.
Perhaps we are WAY too hung up on this ‘reports’ versus ‘notes’ issues, at this point.
Even without those ‘unequivocal’ statements in the officially published reports that went ‘around the world’… there is still plenty of verifable evidence which proves Brendan most likely heard ALL of the radio traffic on the GM inra-crew following his exit from that lookout mound.
We have proved over and over again, right here on this forum, exactly where he WAS, what he was DOING, and his constant proximity to working radios with the GM intra-crew channel.
He has said ( directly to cameras in voumtary interviews ) that that is what he told his Captain he WOULD be doing… listening to the radio and waiting for either instructions or for them to ‘ask him for something’.
If Steed had called out to Brendan on that intra-crew channel at any time after he left his lookout post and Brendan did NOT respond… there would have been hell to pay. Brendan would have probably been doing push-ups in the Crew Carrier all the way back to Prescott.
So ‘any reasonable person’ still does have to conclude that it is HIGHLY likely those statements in the official reports are TRUE… and that Brendan really did hear what they both SAY he heard.
How we get from there to ever discovering exactly WHAT he heard… who knows.
I suppose that is what COURTS really are FOR.
If people won’t volunteer information that it seems highly likely they have ( or even officially deny that they do NOT have that information )… then the only way to make them report about it is to put them in a situation where there are penalties for NOT telling “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”.
That’s why COURTS were invented in the first place.
I have to agree completely.
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
Oh my, how SENSITIVE you are ….
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS. YOU WILL BE SORRY YOU DID.
Notice that there IS enough ‘detail’ in both of those statements to suggest that BOTH sets of investigators ( in what we are being led to believe were two separate interviews because of the ADOSH footnote 5 ) asked Brendan enough questions about this to KNOW, for sure ( and to publish as fact ) which radio frequency Brendan actually heard them ‘discussing their options’ over.
That really does indicate sort of an ‘in depth’ questioning in order to be able to even publish something like THAT as a ‘fact’.
So where are the other ‘facts’ that “any reasonable person” would then assume also came out of EITHER or BOTH of this ‘independent interviews’?
Look… it very well may BE a fact that Brendan didn’t hear much more than we, ourselves can hear in the MacKenzie videos. He may have been taking a piss. I get it.
But that is still just part of the ‘mystery’ that has been created by TWO different Arizona State agencies.
If Brendan did NOT hear ‘enough’ of the conversation to know why they really decided to move… then they should have ADDED that to their PUBLISHED statements.
The fact that they did NOT put that kind of ‘qualifier’ on the published information just adds to the mystery and the speculation… and even Brendan must realize that the source of the speculation about what he does or doesn’t know all goes back to those Arizona agencies… and NOT any kind of online discussion about the incident.
The devil is in the details, as they say.
WHAT, exactly, did he hear?
THAT is the ‘information’ that seems to be being kept hidden.
And that is my point, WTKTT. My impression is that Brendan heard and remembers nothing more than he has already told. Maybe I am 100% wrong on that, but that is my impression.
Everyone shares their impressions on here, so I figured I would do it, too. 🙂
Elizabeth says
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 26, 2014 at 8:51 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> My impression is that Brendan heard and remembers
>> nothing more than he has already told.
And ( as I already explained above ) my impression is that your impression is not based on reality.
Please see the official, PUBLISHED statements from the two different, separate, independent official investigations that I reprinted up above.
The only ‘impression’ that “any reasonable person” really can/should take away from BOTH of those ‘official’ reports is that this sole survivor from that crew DID, in fact, (quote) “hear DIVS A and GM Capt talking about their options, whether to stay in the black or to come up with a plan to move.” (endquote).
It doesn’t say…
“He only heard some of it”
OR
“He missed the important parts”
OR
“He only heard what MacKenzie captured in a video and didn’t even hear the 30 seconds BETWEEN the videos”.
BOTH of the official statements leave “any reasonable person”
with the IMPRESSION that he heard ALL of it. Every word.
>> Elizabeth also wrote.
>> Maybe I am 100% wrong on that, but that is my impression.
I understand. I think you are deluding yourself ( once again ) but that is most certainly no one’s choice but your own.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> Everyone shares their impressions on here,
>> so I figured I would do it, too. 🙂
They do. You did. I think you are wrong to have this ‘impression’ of yours, in this case.
NOTE: This is NOT a ‘personal attack’.. I am just flat-out disagreeing with you.
But the “official statements” are not supported by either the SAIT Inverview Notes or the ADOSH interviews.
Right on, Marti. Right on!
Totally agree.
(FYI, I think Brendan was made the lookout b/c he didn’t feel well, and it was easier to make him a redundant lookout (since Steed and Marsh both had their own good eyes on the fire) than let him sit there while the other crew members did hard labor on the line.)
I agree.
Hi Brendan. You here? Direct question to you. Why were you made the lookout? you can post here or email it [email protected] or leave voice message 480-280-5813.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
November 26, 2014 at 9:33 pm
>> Marti said…
>> But the “official statements” are not
>> supported by either the SAIT Inverview
>> Notes or the ADOSH interviews.
Not the notes we can SEE… that is.
I was the one that pointed out ( a LOONG time ago ) this ‘conundrum’ between those unequivocal statements of fact about what Brendan HEARD that day in the TWO official reports… and the lack of direct (quotable) testimony notes to support them later on when all the FOIA stuff started to appear…
As far as ‘mysteries’ go… it remains a ‘golden oldie’.
.But this additional ‘mystery’ in no way diminishes or negates those unequivocal ‘statements of fact’ that appeared in BOTH official reports.
If it is complete nonsense… then why has Brendan McDonough never denied them?… or why does he still bristle in ANY interview that even gets close to asking him what he actually HEARD that day?
Brendan has had ample opportunity to refute these claims in BOTH of the official reports… and ample opportunity to just ‘qualify’ the statement(s)…
…but he has never done any such thing.
I ( personally ) believe the reason he can’t ( or won’t ) refute the statements is because they are TRUE.
I actually wish he WOULD prove me ( and a lot of other people ) wrong on this. That might put an end to this ongoing ‘mystery’ and the speculation.
All he has to say is…
“You know that place in both of those official reports on the fire where they say I heard Eric and Jesse discussing their options and making a plan to leave the safe black? Well… I never heard any of that and I don’t know how those statements that I did hear all that ever got into the official reports.”
C’mon Brendan. It ain’t hard.
“Brendan has had ample opportunity to refute these claims in BOTH of the official reports… and ample opportunity to just ‘qualify’ the statement(s)…
…but he has never done any such thing.
I ( personally ) believe the reason he can’t ( or won’t ) refute the statements is because they are TRUE.
I actually wish he WOULD prove me ( and a lot of other people ) wrong on this. That might put an end to this ongoing ‘mystery’ and the speculation.”
And I totally agree with this also.
As I said, I think Brendan knows more than Elizabeth believes he does, and less than I used to thinks he does.
The best thing Brendan could do, for his own mental/emotional health, his credibility, and the pursuit of TRUTH and, thus, “Lessons Learned,” is to tell his story, as best he can at this point.
I really hope, given that he is working for Wildland Firefighting Foundation, which is all about supporting WFFs who have been affected by fatal/damaging/traumatizing fires, he gets some help and support to counter the potentially not-helpful counsel he may be getting from his (most likely agency-defending) lawyers.
He really needs to tell his story.
Speaking of ‘taking a piss’…
Don’t forget there has ALSO always been this ‘credible evidence’ in the SAIT notes which put the following words right into Brendan’s mouth…
Page 42 of the YIN ( The SAIT’s Yarnell Investigation Notes ).
Notes from the SAIT interview with Brendan McDonough…
——————————————————————-
“I started the truck turned on the AC and made sure the truck radios were on the right Channel and volume up.”
——————————————————————-
According to his SAIT note sequence… Brendan was telling them exactly what he did after Brian Frisby dropped him off at the GM Supt. and Chase trucks location.
That is, in fact, the SAME timeframe when the reports said he ‘overheard them (quote) “talking about their options, whether to stay in the black or to come up with a plan to move.”
Notice Brendan himself says “The RIGHT Channel”… and uses the word ‘radios’ ( plural, no singular ). So Brendan himself is telling them he turned the volume UP on BOTH radios in BOTH trucks and made sure they were BOTH monitoring the GM intra-crew frequency. That would have been the RIGHT channel that Brendan was referring to because he also had just recently told Steed to ‘give him a call’ ( at any moment ) if he needed anything… and that is the channel that ‘call’ would have been taking place on.
There is no other channel in the spectrum that Brendan would have been considering the RIGHT channel, at that point in time, other than the GM private intra-crew channel.
So according to Brendan’s own words… even if he was standing right outside the vehicles taking a piss… he would have STILL overheard everything being said in that timeframe.
Again… Brendan has had many, many opportunities to deny ( or even just QUALIFY ) some/all of these statement being directly attributed to him in BOTH of the official ‘reports’ and in the supporting documentation… but he has never done so.
So the mystery continues ( based on ‘credible evidence’ ).
WHAT did he really hear that day?
You realize that Brendan was not sitting in the truck as it was running, blasting the A/C, but was instead outside the truck taking pictures, right?
Let’s be candid: Is your view that Brendan is honestly the most, most uber-uber-perceptive young fellow who is taking careful and very very detailed mental notes on everything simultaneously? ‘Cause that’s not necessarily my impression (obviously with no disrespect intended of Brendan). Some 20-something year old fellows pay careful attention to everything going on around them at all times, taking detailed mental notes of everything simultaneously, and some young fellows do not.
Reply to Elizabeth post on
November 26, 2014 at 9:05 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> You realize that Brendan was not sitting
>> in the truck as it was running, blasting
>> the A/C, but was instead outside the
>> truck taking pictures, right?
For a moment… yes… but he was not ‘standing outside the truck’, per se. He was actually standing on the GUNWALE of the truck and shooting directly over the roof of the cab. Big difference. That means the DOOR of the vehicle was OPEN… and he would have still been hearing every single word coming over the radio(s) WHILE he was taking those pictures ( especially since he had been sure turn the VOLUME UP… as he told the SAIT investigators he did ).
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> Let’s be candid:
Sure. Always a good ‘way to be’, counselor.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> Is your view that Brendan is honestly
>> the most, most uber-uber-perceptive
>> young fellow who is taking careful and
>> very very detailed mental notes on
>> everything simultaneously? ‘Cause
>> that’s not necessarily my impression
>> (obviously with no disrespect intended
>> of Brendan). Some 20-something year
>> old fellows pay careful attention to
>> everything going on around them at
>> all times, taking detailed mental notes
>> of everything simultaneously, and
>> some young fellows do not.
You said “let’s be candid, right?”
Okay.
I do not give a flying crap what YOU happen to think about anything… much less that you just tried to establish that YOU think Brendan McDonough is some kind of ‘dimwit’ or ‘slow to catch’ or ‘non-perceptive as compared to some in his age group’ or whatever fucking nonsense you just tried to sell us all up above just because some ‘facts’ are ( once again ) getting in the way of your own whacky ‘impressions’.
I also do NOT give any kind of crap with any equivalent altitude level about what YOU think Brendan may or may not have FULLY told the investigators. You do NOT know how much he did or did not tell them. Apparently… few people do. That’s the problem.
But BOTH of the OFFICIAL investigations of this incident have published the same STATEMENTS regarding whether or not Brendan McDonough did ( or did NOT ) actually HEAR the conversation(s) in question.
Let me refresh your memory ( once again ), counselor…
This time with ONLY the ( almost identical ) testimony from TWO independent interviews with this man…
“From page 24 of the Arizona Forestry sponsored
Special Accident Investigation Report ( SAIR )…
———————————————————–
On the Granite Mountain intra-crew frequency, GM Lookout hears DIVS A and GM Capt talking about their options, whether to stay in the black or to come up with a plan to move.”
———————————————————–
“From page 15 of the Arizona ADOSH contracted
Wildland Fire Associates Investigation Report ( WFAR )…
——————————————————————
On the GMIHC intracrew frequency, GM Lookout heard the DIVS A and GMIHC Captain discussing the options of whether to stay in the black or to move.
——————————————————————
Let me also remind you of the statement of yours
that started this whole sub-thread…
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> …when there is no credible, fact-based
>> reason to suspect that the poor kid is
>> deliberately lying or withholding
>> important, helpful, material information.
You are WRONG.
There have ALWAYS been these ‘credible, fact-based reasons’ to believe Brendan knows more than he is saying and they come from BOTH of the official investigations into this incident…
…and unless Brendan ever DENIES these published statements… then “any reasonable person” would believe he is, somehow, ‘withholding information’.
Unfortunately, as I have written above (and as Elizabeth is trying to say), the official reports of these two investigations are not actually supported by their interviews as published.
And as I have said three times above… THAT has been known for some time and still remains a ‘golden oldie’ mystery.
I am the one who first pointed this ‘conundrum’ out when the FOIA material first appeared.
The ISSUE of this sub-thread is whether there is any evidence that a ‘reasonable person’ could construe to mean that Brendan knows more than he is saying.
The answer is YES.
The officially published statements in BOTH of the official investigation reports.
It is perfectly obvious from ALL of the ‘SAIT NOTES’ that a lot more went on ( and was said ) in these SAIT interviews than is ultimately revealed in these namby-pamby ‘SAIT notes’ they released.
As for ADOSH… that also remains a ‘golden oldie’ mystery. Is their ‘footnote 5’ a complete lie itself?… That Brendan did NOT say what they say he says in their own interview with him… or was that part left out of their own transcripts?
Who knows. They chose to publish the same information using ‘different words’ so they must have consciously chosen to stand by that statement and put their own reputations on the line while PUBLISHING it.
Brendan himself could solve this ENTIRE mystery about what he did or didn’t hear… or did or didn’t tell investigators in a heartbeat.
He continues to refuse to even do that.
So the mystery continues… and ‘reasonable people’ still have what seems to be ‘credible evidence’ that he is not telling everything he knows about what happened that day.
Well, a really qualified (as Bob Powers wrote, should have been a squad boss AT LEAST) experienced responsible fire-fighter that had been assigned as a LOOKOUT (given what I’ve read and learned about LOOKOUTS–the extremely important L in LCES) would have, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED–including that that fire was turning around and heading in the the direction of Yarnell and Granite Mountain–been listening to the radio even as he was taking a leak.
But what was he actually hearing? I’m at the point of WHO KNOWS??????
It’s pretty clear to me that, for the most part, Brendan was only assigned as Lookout because he was under the weather and not because he was actually seriously qualified to be doing it, in any serious manner.
I think he heard maybe more than you estimate he heard and maybe less than I used to think he heard.
Remember, this plays, not only, into the currently active narrative that there is a potential video that includes an argument about those Options, but also into the conversations with Brendan over a map in the Ranch House Restaurant Parking Lot when the “search and rescue” team was trying to figure out where to go “search and rescue.”
This is why I believed back in the early spring, and still believe, the sooner Brendan really gets the courage to get out there and really talk about what he really heard and didn’t hear, the better for him and everybody else, regardless of what his handlers/lawyers (agency provided or otherwise) are advising him to do.
Elizabeth
Counselor— you have totally bailed off the deep end
Don’t believe the facts but follow the trail to the Cliff
and jump off trying to prove a point that dose not exist.
McDonough never let that Hand held radio away fro him
tuned into Crew Net GM he was attached to them with it
until they said no more as a ex Hot Shot I would bet the farm on it.
RTS and JOY both confirmed the Deposition with Witnesses and Joy with local and personal info.
You really have no clue and are lost in your own maze of
untruths, lies, misinformation and total unreliability.
SMILEY FACE???????????????
I disagree!
Can you believe it?
What Elizabeth is saying is that neither the SAIT Interview Notes of Brendan’s interview or the ADOSH Interview transcripts SAY what BOTH of their REPORTS are saying.
Their REPORTS are saying Brendan heard that conversation.
There is NOTHING in either of their interview documentation that actually EXPLICITLY supports that.
And NEITHER of them even bothered to follow up on that in their interviews.
I’m on Elizabeth’s side here.
Fancy that!
I really AM more committed to ferreting out the TRUTH of this totally F***ed up fire and its totally F***ed up investigations than than I’m committed to any other personal agendas.
personal agendas—either mine or anybody else’s.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
November 26, 2014 at 10:34 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> What Elizabeth is saying is
>> that neither the SAIT Interview
>> Notes of Brendan’s interview or
>> the ADOSH Interview transcripts
>> SAY what BOTH of their REPORTS
>> are saying.
For the FIFTH time here ( on this sub-thread )… that is not NEW information.
Elizabeth is doing nothing but repeating the same information I wrote about many, many months ago on this forum shortly after the FOIA material came online.
YES… it is TRUE ( it has ALWAYS been true ).
There are some statements in BOTH of the official, published reports that seem to be unequivocal and factual and it is obvious the writers of these reports expect us to BELIEVE these statements as FACT.
The statement in both reports that Brendan did, in fact, hear Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed “discussing their options and making a plan to leave the black'” is just ONE of those ‘unequivocal’ statements that is not directly supported by material we have been ‘allowed’ to see so far. ( SAIT-NOTES, etc. ).
Just don’t forget what the basis of this entire sub-thread really is.
It is whether or not there is ‘evidence’ out there that we are expected to believe as ‘credible’ which would support any reasonable person believing that Brendan has not told everything he knows about what happened that day.
The answer is still YES.
Those two statements in the officially published reports have NEVER been refuted by Brendan in any way.. even though he has had ample opportunities to do so.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> There is NOTHING in either of their
>> interview documentation that actually
>> EXPLICITLY supports that.
Not in the ‘interview documentation’ we have been allowed to SEE… you mean.
It has ALWAYS been perfectly obvious that these namby-pamby SAIT ‘interview notes’ do NOT reveal everything the SAIT was told during the actual interviews… with pretty much ANY of these people they talked to.
That doesn’t diminish or negate the fact that they chose to publish certain things in the ACTUAL reports ( the ones they were getting PAID to produce ) as unequivocal fact.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I really AM more committed to
>> ferreting out the TRUTH of this
>> totally F***ed up fire and its
>> totally F***ed up investigations
>> than I’m committed to any other
>> personal agendas.
Brendan McDonough himself could help.
All he has EVER had to do to ‘clear up’ this mystery about what he did or didn’t hear that day is to either DENY the published statements in BOTH official reports… or to at least QUALIFY them and say he didn’t hear anything that matters.
He has never done so.
Any reasonable person must conclude, then, that those original unequivocal statements that were published in official reports that literally went ‘around the world’ are TRUE, and that it would APPEAR he knows more than he is saying about what happened that day.
McDonough’s public silence on this is proof of nothing. He is under no obligation to discuss this publicly and he and his lawyer may have chosen to say nothing publicly on this.
He does have to cooperate with the investigations and the legal process. We do not know that he has not done that. He might have told him more than he will reveal in public and that is his right.
Again I state my simple case
McDonough had 2 Radios available to him.
He herd every thing being said by his crew
inside or outside the vehicle.
What Dudley dumped on us was I believe some of what was said and copped by McDonough and others that was not released.
McDonough was absolutely glued to those radios the fire was going to hell and he was concerned about his crew when they moved vehicles. Ask any hot shot in the same position if the where able to monitor there crew would they be stuck to a radio in or out of a truck. The answer is yes always attached to the crew
again I repeat the brother thing is a thread that is never broken. Having a radio kept him tied to the crew till the end. In the aftermath he was protecting his crew good or bad that was a natural reaction to some that may be hard to understand to me and other Hot Shots it is not.
I think there is evidence out there maybe in BR redacted info that puts McDonough on the carpet to finally give the facts as to what he herd. So I stand on my belief and Waite for more info.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 27, 2014 at 9:22 am
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> McDonough had 2 Radios available
>> to him. He herd every thing being
>> said by his crew inside or outside
>> the vehicle.
>>
>> McDonough was absolutely glued
>> to those radios the fire was going
>> to hell and he was concerned about
>> his crew when they moved vehicles.
>> Ask any hot shot in the same
>> position if the where able to monitor
>> there crew would they be stuck
>> to a radio in or out of a truck.
>> The answer is yes always attached
>> to the crew
“Any reasonable person” would have to believe all of the above is TRUE… until information is presented that details why it would NOT be true.
Brendan SAID ( to his Captain ) that is exactly what he would be doing while he was separated from them. “Just give me a call if you need anything” also meant “at ANY moment… I will be listening”.
Brendan was still “on the job”. No one had “sent him home” yet. If his Captain HAD called out to him over the intra-crew in need of something and Brendan had NOT responded… there would have been hell to pay… and Brendan KNEW that.
How we get from this ‘credible evidence’ that the statements in the official reports are TRUE about him ‘heaing them discussing their options’ to WHAT he actually heard…
…well… I suppose that’s why COURTS and “witness stands” and “tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth” were invented in the first place.
About the recent behind the scenes talks of settlements and NEW lawsuits due to come out and this time involving more folks than previously been publicly named in law suit. Believe you me, the case IS very strong on the one…very…to the extent the plaintiff will go through this until the end—NO SETTLING! I truly hope the plaintiffs in all suits DO NOT SETTLE and this goes to court. I dislike the court room—always seems to turn into twists and angles and horse shit— SORRY LAWYERS– not what you want me to type but think of the practical terms in this… J U S T I C E. In the offers to the lawyers of these settlements, will it include the admittance of wrongdoing. Not. Will the settlement enjoin them both sides so the TRUTH can never be reached? Like no commenting or future digging?
I hope the plaintiffs say NO!!!! Do not let them tell you this is going to be an expensive proposition— do not let them BULLY you into settling. I bet they’d this is a bunch of HOGWASH but this IS about more than that…more than any dollar amount and even if they offer 30-40 million refuse it. We all were put on this Earth for a purpose and do not let your lawyer come back and twist it saying “are you saying your purpose was to sue the state?” Do not be bullied! Please think of ALL Fallen not just the 19 and ALL affected by the Yarnell Hill Fire across the nation. We have had words flooded our way to silence and move on and those people behind the scenes who cannot come on here like Bob Powers and Marti Reed and Elizabeth Nowicki and all he contribute here like I tell everyone since day one I have always been drawn to WWTKTT and so I have limited online time so I skim but for some reason Gary Olsen, Marti Reed and WWTKTT have always been my areas and Sonny’s has been smoke jumper Murray Taylor, Dr. Ted Putnam and Bob Powers. We read the others but not always and we know people as they tell us the never read ours and it is okay. We all come on here seeking and learning the areas we want to learn from…I never get offended when I hear “I do not even read yours Joy”…works for me. I am only hear to bring the hikes and the photos and the videos and the information as it comes to me. I do not always engage here yet I have been frustrated at times and not always founded just frustrated so seem may think I do not like them but I do not dislike anyone. I never imagined when Sonny said he was going to Mexico I was left wondering chapter done with us or the whole book because he sure meant it Saturday—he was done on the whole fire—he wants good times minus daily doing things for others in regards to the fire. I happily soaked in my bubble bath thinking wow this nice. Rest finally. Yesterday I had not planned to go to Yarnell at all. I was set on all is good but that man who did defensible space Andrew Williams when he shared to me something in regards to scripture I am back on the trails full force and who is the FIRST person to see when doing it? At the Congress Country Store/Gas Station. I never imagined my first meeting to be there but I met Amanda Marsh. Exchanged hellos and that was that. Her body language had the stance that I was the last person she would ever want to run into in public…She is the one that shared emails with me I have never spoke publicly about yet I can tell you in the end I saw the same reaction so many media folks did. Even she has requested for me to let the 19 men die and move on…this is never about recognition and I always felt insulted when people would tell me “Wow, Joy you have done so much for us directly and you are not given the appreciation you deserve” and I can see thousands say that over time and my reply to me this is all being led by God. I mean to have a grown man like Lewis Prison Crew Andrew Williams open and share that scripture changed the course I was on settling in on home life again…We all get tired or frustrated especially us who know more behind the scenes and know more could of been put out by now…LAWYERS who read this…whatever happen to this thing called J U S T I C E. Why would you even be thinking about settling when you know there IS answers to provide you all with a strong case IN court. Not justice how its dispersed in this country— BY CHECKBOOKS! It is not about getting the Mayor’s key to the city either. The state has UNLIMITED hidden funds—they will bury the plaintiffs with motions and injunctions and perhaps even counter lawsuits— THEY WILL DROWN THE PLAINTIFFS— Let’s teach the CHILDREN of our world THE RIGHT THING TO DO! The state has all the time so do not buy into the lawyers lingo of YOU DON”T HAVE ALL THE TIME or RESOURCES!
If you don’t FIGHT for the RIGHT THING TO DO— none of us have a chance and more men and women will die due to higher ups blunders! Do not let OUTSIDE outlets make you feel “destructive” or use prior or current melt downs for their benefit…SHIT…19 men died. We all deserve to MELT down. RISE ABOVE their horse shit. We need you! We support you! Keep the faith! You know exactly WHO I share this to…Stay Strong! It is going to be okay. Your lawyer if you do not settle may even resign off the case but time will pass and God will lead you to your counsel for your matter/case. It is not all I care about is the Yarnell Fire. I am stretched out beyond the fire on so many ways. I am not obsessed about the fire yet it is my number one priority until its resolved on changing the way they fight them. I have very strong family support and even during the economic crunch and selling off assets…I am always knowing God will be my rock. Sonny will tell you Joy’s husband is her rock but hey without God, John and Sonny I could not help any of you alone. Don’t take the lawyer’s lingo TAKE IT OR LEAVE OFFER—won’t last! I am so sorry the separation this fire has caused not just local but on a national level. I really felt Amanda Marsh’s body language. I mean shouldn’t my first time be an embrace between us two? The healing of a hug. This the time we need to pull together not apart. If the only tools we have at hand right now is OPENLY expressing ourselves here on JD’s page than M A G N I F I C E N T! How words are arranged can reach the TRUTH or create confusion or stir people to think another way. What the SAIR team did was down right wrong. The manipulation of settling is down right wrong. EVERY KID OUT THERE and every grown up who was a KID who faced a loss they DEPEND on us adults to DO THE RIGHT THING! These folks…the SAIR team and others…can look you RIGHT IN THE EYE and have the arrogance to say they didn’t do anything wrong- yet some accepted accolades in their efforts in the YHF. You got to be kidding. Lawyers can be impressive how they WORD things to make you BELIEVE this way or that because its what they BELIEVE to keep the money market going—
The corruption stops! Thank you to everyone on JD’s page for all your comments. Happy Thanksgiving! Let’s keep wearing our badges of hope, honor and courage and one day see justice. DO THE RIGHT THING and share your photos, videos and accounts. IT DOES MATTER! (tears flood my eyes when I think how one firefighter (Andrew Williams) got me back on track…back on the trails to justice—thank you Mr. Williams—sincerely thank you) There are going to be times just like Sonny and I clash for he cannot “understand” how I can sell off assets to pay Mr. William’s family but not sell off assets to get blood work or buy Sonny a burger or 2. I needed extra help clearing off Steven King’s property. Sonny and my husband wanted no part of it. Sonny always has the view in his own time and way but I wanted it to be done now. I did the nativity with scrap wood and getting ready to gather clay today to make baby Jesus for the nativity and to me it was important not to him. Sonny and I think totally different yet we both seek the TRUTH but in our own ways of doing it. Could I have waited to do that defensible space with the Williams family? Maybe but I want Yarnell Chief Ben Palm to SEE since he lives two houses down that we mean business that HE NEEDS TO BE TEACHING NOT US the locals the IMPORTANCE of it begins at HOME and so I know for fact I helped two dozen people this past week because there is a splice hatred for firefighters because 19 men died and loss of homes and property/landscape/etc. and lives after the fire too. My whole POINT is to teach the locals it IS NOT the firefighters but the higher ups. The politics in this has to end and we need to bond our firefighters in a GOOD light not in a hated way…They do not realize how very important they are to our community. There has been some who has felt the hatred and my only wish is to educate locals on dissolving the hatred…get rid of the bad blood the misleading blood and bring back the GOOD blood to the community. Shit, I learned this week I am not as passionate as I thought about the path I am on because I did settling in to bubble baths and migun times no thought too focused as I have been to the fire but my parents said that is healthy and normal to take breaks like that and that I am still passionate about it…we all need breaks yet if Mr. Williams did not share like he did I may still be at the home. Sonny may think he gets credit because he came down to pick me up but in the end it has been hard on us this fire for Sonny and I knowing another. Things are okay for us now. He just spent the hour typing you all here to have the library pc shut off on him so he went for a walk. He wished you all Happy Thanksgiving! Let’s all keep strong and keep sharing the information as we get it. Someone recently said they stopped sharing the information as they got it to us because we share our accounts on JD’s page and they need privacy and like I tell everyone I do share we talk to this or that but some we have to label “private” but we still share so if you cannot come to us knowing we are not gonna share your details all but we rather anything told to us to be able to be repeated —less to store—
Awesome! You go Girl!!!!!
And a Happy Thanksgiving to you!
And I wear my Andrew Ashcraft White Be Better Bracelet with pride and humility.
What you wrote above is totally spot on.
Remember, it’s part of The System’s Modus Operandi to DIVIDE and CONQUER.
So we CO-EVOLVE instead!
Namaste!
Happy Thanksgiving back to you…I am home cooking and out in the storage boxes trying to find information I got last Fall but disregarded but it is on topic here lately and YES there is locals that can tell you they saw Donut where why and what EVEN the look on his face as he drove out…I will be here a few more hours…eat soon…than up to Sonny and skeeter as we complete a defensible space project for one of the old folks there—If we have day job projects we have been doing them for free but of course we are always going to support our firefighters and send them to Andrew Williams for projects so he can make supplemental income on the off season of fighting wildland fires, Anyone willing to donate their free labor time to help clear defensible space…on folks in Yarnell…reach us and we will guide you to them…Alot of elders do not have extra funds to do their properties. It starts with us all,,,we can make a difference and by doing our part less chance the higher ups when making their blunders can create your home to be burnt down. I know some homeowners blame and have hate for the firefighters BUT I WILL be persistent in breaking that down and dissolving that idea…the firefighters are human beings who follow a chain of command so not to LAY BLAME but the photos do not lie as I have said time and time again IF and only IF these homeowners and firefighters keep sharing their accounts then we can reach more public fact based clarity…HAPPY THANKSGIVING ALL!!!
Don’t see much difference in opinion with JOY except she was adamant about dropping off into that same basin area those 19 men did. We actually argued early morning very near the spot they died on our way up. Her photos prove that. If providence had anything to do with it, God or Alien Gods or if this were God’s plan for those men I can’t opine.
There are many things that distress us when so much information has been withheld or distorted Marti, you are a genius with those photos as are a couple others there. You seeing that bambi bucket in the photo and realized they could have made an early drop of water to stop the forward motion of that fire you were entirely correct. Men on the fire that day reported that they knew that was available on Saturday morning yet was ordered to stand down. No mention was made of that in the SAIR report as we understand it. But then not everything can be said in a cursory report–or was it a report that someone did not want told?
Because of reliable persons whom have both witnessed and photographed two ATV’ shortly before and after the so-reported lightning caused fire JOY and I wonder why an FBI investigation is not started on that premise alone. We have tried to locate where the strike actually happened on several occasions The co ordinates for the fire starting were posted erroneously and by our GPS showed to be about 2.9 miles north of what we saw on line. Fortunately we saw the smoke from Congress side on Friday and have photos of that a reference where to look. Now the people that have the photos have personal reasons for holding back–something many people have had–refer to Donut, et. al. on that one. What I can tell you is that the lightening struck near the top of a mountain and generally it will find a tree to hit–split the tree and even fry the roots. It will also take some time before you see the smoke. I can also tell you if an arsonist were to want to start a fire it might be to his advantage to do it during a dry lightening storm These fellows are crafty, and if you read some of the stories of those California arsonists and others, they are usually only caught by being in the area when a fire starts. If it proves someone was there on ATV’s then they will need to be doing some explaining for their actions. I can tell you one witness that lights were moving around up there has passed away We had listened to her witnessing in the library–we are told now to keep our mouths shut about the fire in the library in Yarnell now, which we both do–to a great extent at least. Freedom of Speech?
Yes we do continue working for more photos. Can this be wrong? I think not We have had another civilian death here just day before yesterday. That is now 35+ since the fire. Don’t tell old sonny it is a coincidence. Even a cowboy knows that too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence.
Now I am sorry that I don’t have a medical degree to find out what the other “trade secret” 8 percent of that fire retardant is. You firefighters and Yarnell area people including myself, will have to just keep on breathing that shit without knowing what is and was in it besides the nitrates that creates NH3, very nasty stuff for lungs in itself. Believe the men who say it is “safe” if you please but I will keep at it until I find out. Well Chuck Tidy came down with a cancer bad enough that he is taking treatment. I can say that cause he said it publicly at a town meeting–public info. Marti, if you look at the photo of the jet liner drop as received from an anonymous but concerned citizen, you will see it was tons of an orange substance that landed within yards of Chuck’s back yard–and for that manner yards of many back yards. I am certainly not connecting this to Chuck’s malady, but perhaps this has chemicals that escalate things like cancer. Don’t we as the public have the right to know what we have been breathing since the fire?
Then we consider the mining in this area as well Cyanide, mercury, and acids were in the old days abundantly used in gold separation processes Right above where that FEMA bulldozer turned around and shortly above where the old grader sits are gold mines–one above the drift from the size of its ore dump we know was a deep mine. There where that old grader had its weathered black rubber tires burned off was a camp–many bottles, rusty cans and old trash left in that area. Where did they mill that ore and was that the area they kept cyanide? Then what about the Helms area–What chemicals might have been dumped near there since it was doing some government work that we are told had used chemical. Are there PCB’s in the area and have any federal environmental people checked those areas out. Oh I know this will raise the ire of some, but the people who are living in the area need answers as to why so many are dying and others suffering such things as diminished lung capacity, JOY and myself included.
Well, what do we need here to make sure the next lightening strike, if it was, will not be allowed to turn into an Atom Bomb like scenario? If you think the A-Bomb comparison is too much, please realize the professors that study wild fires calculate that these wild fires release as much energy as a Hiroshima type bomb about every 15 minutes. They may not have studied the fall out from this fire, but we are assured it is there. .
**
** NEW ‘OLYMPUS’ PHOTO TIMESTAMPS ARE ALL AT LEAST 46 MINUTES BEHIND
** THE REAL TIME THAT DAY, BUT NOT NOT MORE THAN 1 HOUR AND 38 MINUTES
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 25, 2014 at 8:57 pm
>> Marti said…
>> If I add 1 hour and 43 minutes to that Tonto Crew photo, it ends
>> up at about 5:26 PM, much more in line with what the shadows
>> are in that photo.
>>
>> Which would also put the launch at about 5:06 PM, more like what I
>> remember (off the top of my head) about when that happened as
>> per the various interviews.
>>
>> So I think we’re getting into the ballpark.
Yes… we are… but I think the following proves that 1 hour and 43 minutes would be about 5 minutes beyond the MAXIMUM time the Olympus could have been ‘behind the real time’ that day.
Still tracking down the real ‘time offset’ for the new ‘Olympus’ photos that Joy provided… but as it turns out… the photo of the Blue Ridge Hotshot vehicles sitting in the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Station really helps to establish a MINIMUM and a MAXIMUM time for how much the Olympus camera’s internal clock was ‘behind the real time’ that day.
The new ‘Olympus’ photo of the Blue Ridge buggies fully parked/staged at the Yarnell Hill Fire Station is image P6300647.
EXIF data from image P6300647…
Camera ID: OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA
Equipment Version: 0100
Camera Type 2: FE5010,X915
Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 08:22:52 ( 8:22:52 AM )
Create Date: 2013:06:30 08:22:52 ( 8:22:52 AM )
There is no way that time of 8:22 AM can be right.
The Olympus camera seems to say that the Blue Ridge Buggies were all arrived… and fully ( neatly ) parked by 8:22 AM… but BR Captain Brown’s own Unit Log notes say they didn’t even ARRIVE at the Yarnell Fire Station until 9:05 AM.
From page 1 of the Blue Ridge Hotshots ( heavily redacted ) Unit Logs…
NOTE: Even though the NAMES associated with all these BR Unit Logs were also redacted… the unredacted parts of this first ‘Unit Log’ in this PDF document prove it was written by BR Captain Trueheart Brown.
———————————————————
0800 – Blue Ridge IHC arrives at Yarnell ICP.
0845 – Blue Ridge IHC instructed to head to Yarnell FD station. We are not given any type of briefing and we are told that Roy Hall’s state team is taking over the incident.
0905 – Blue Ridge IHC arrives at Yarnell FD station and stages for an assignment. Currently the station is being used as a helibase and a troop shuttle ( Yellow/White BLM Helicopter N14HX ) is occurring with the IA resources being flown off the hill that had worked the fire through the night.
1000 – Blue Ridge IHC is instructed via radio by (REDACTED 1 / OPS1 Todd Abel ) to tie in with (REDACTED 2 / SPGG1 Gary Cordes ) off of Lakewood and Manzanita rd. We are to tie in with him and get a DOZB off the crew to relieve him of DOZB duties so that he can return to structure group. Myself and (REDACTED 3 / BR SUP Brian Frisby ) head in first to assess road conditions and parking for vehicles.
———————————————————
NOTE: The ‘1000’ paragraph has NAMES redacted but it’s perfectly obvious what they are.
REDACTED 1 = OPS1 Todd Abel
REDACTED 2 = SPGS1 Gary Cordes
REDACTED 3 = Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby
SIDENOTE: Here is just some of the proof how we can be sure what the actual
REDACTED names are up above…
In his ADOSH interview… Gary Cordes describes this same moment in BR Captain Brown’s Unit Log. Cordes says he DID ‘stay with the dozer’ that morning after it arrived and while it was ‘pushing line’ out there in the ‘middle bowl’, and that he did, in fact, stay with the dozer until Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball showed up to ‘relieve’ Cordes as DOZB…
From page 20 of SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
———————————————————
864 Q2: …okay. I think I have uh, I think I have most of that. Alright. Okay, I’d like
865 to go on back to, I’m on page two of your uh, activity log and uh, so 8:40,
866 8:45, you got – the dozer arrives, started on the work after briefing on Sesame
867 Street, I ordered the dozer boss uh…
868
869 A: Stayed with dozer, pushing the line until Ball from Blue Ridge took over as
870 the dozer boss.
———————————————————-
In OPS1 Todd Abel’s interview he confirms that HE was the one telling Blue Ridge where to go and what to do and where to go all morning… and that it was, in fact, he and Gary Cordes who decided to use BR Hotsot Ball to replace Cordes as DOZB that morning…
From page 24 of OPS1 Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview…
———————————————————-
872 Q1: I hope you’re, uh – don’t mind us laboring through (unintelligible). Okay. So
873 then we say that, um, you staged Blue Ridge.
874
875 A: Mm-hm.
876
877 Q1: At the station and then assigned Blue Ridge to Eric.
878
879 A: Yes. So, we all went back down to the – the high – the school to do the
880 briefing for all the resources that had checked in.
881
882 Q1: That’s down here somewhere?
883
884 A: Yes.
885
886 Q: Model Creek School.
887
888 Q1: Model Creek School.
889
890 A: You got it, Model Creek School, yeah.
891
892 Q1: Okay.
893
894 A: So we went down there, uh, after the briefing ran into, um, Blue Ridge out
895 there, um, and they said hey, what would you like us to do? I said hey, why
896 don’t you guys go stage at the school. I’m not sure exactly where I wanna put
897 you guys yet. But I wanted that hotshot crew in my back pocket.
898
899 Q1: Right.
900
901 A: So we staged them there. Uh, we got all the resources – I broke all the other
902 resources up into task force to go out and help with, you know, structure prep
903 on both, um, Peeples Valley and Yarnell and Glen Ilah, ob-obviously.
Here is where Todd Abel confirms that Cordes was ‘with the dozer’ in the morning and he says the both HE and Cordes were the ones that decided to take Ball from Blue Ridge and have him relieve Cordes as DOZB for the dozer…
1053 Q1: Okay. So the dozer is, uh – the dozer is Gary’s – Cordes’?
1054
1055 A: Yeah, when – when the dozer showed up – it had been ordered the night before
1056 – when the dozer showed up, um, Gary got a hold of him, ‘cause he knew we
1057 wanted to start getting some work done as soon as possible. So he started, uh,
1058 directing them on where to, uh, start doing dozer work. And then we took a,
1059 uh, heavy equipment boss from Blue Ridge and assigned him to that dozer.
———————————————————-
Ok… back to the TIME OFFSETS for the ‘Olympus’ photos…
So BR Captain Brown says Blue Ridge ARRIVED at the Yarnell Fire Station at exactly 9:05 AM on Sunday morning, and they were ‘staged’ there for no more than 55 minutes when, at exactly 10:00 AM, they got orders ( from OPS1 Todd Abel ) to ‘move out’ from the Yarnell Fire Station and to ‘tie in’ with SPGS1 Gary Cordes, who was still with the dozer out in the Sesame area.
That puts the only ‘possible’ time for the photo of the Blue Ridge buggies ‘staged’ at the Yarnell Fire Station at a narrow 55 minute ‘window’ from 9:05 AM to 10:00 AM.
With just a little ‘guessing’ here… we can at least establish a MINIMUM and a MAXIUMUM time for how much the Olympus camera’s interal clock was OFF the REAL time that day.
Let’s assume that it would take at least 3 minutes after arriving to actually fully ‘park’ all those vehicles as neatly as we see them parking there in the P6300647 photo.
That puts the ‘minimum’ time when the P6300647 photo could have been taken at 9:08 AM.
So the difference between 9:08 AM and 8:22 AM is 46 minutes.
That means the LEAST amount of time the Olympus could have been ‘off’ by is 46 minutes behind the REAL time that day.
Now let’s say the P6300647 photo was actually taken just BEFORE Blue Ridge ‘mounted up’ and ‘moved out’ from the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Station.
The difference between the ‘move out’ time of 10:00 AM and 8:22 AM is 1 hour and 38 minutes.
That means the MOST amount of time the Olympus could have been ‘off’ by is 1 hour and 38 minutes behind the REAL time that day.
MINUMUM TIME ( BEHIND REAL TIME ): 46 minutes
MAXIMUM TIME ( BEHIND REAL TIME ): 1 hour and 38 minutes.
We’ll need a little more information to nail this down exactly… but there is no doubt now that ALL of the EXIF timestamps for ALL of these Olympus photos are at LEAST 46 minutes behind the REAL time that day.
Getting close.
More later.
I will meet with owner of pics and have person read live anf have person answer your questions tomorrow so ask all questions tonite up till 10am and get ur questions tomorrow
Thank you, Joy. The only question I have ( at the moment ) would be for whoever was using that OLYMPUS DIGITIAL CAMERA ( the 74 photos ) and taking all those pictures up there on ‘Looka Way and/or Crest Way’.
Ask them if THEY can be sure exactly how many minutes BEHIND the real time that OLYMPUS camera was that day. They may have ‘noticed’ it themselves at some point that day or shortly after that day.
We know the clock on that camera was at least 43-46 minutes BEHIND the actual time that day… but if they happen to know EXACTLY how many minutes it was behind… that would save us a lot of ‘detective’ work on this end.
Joy… a quick followup.
As far as the Olympus camera photos go…. it really might be just as simple as the camera not being set for ‘Daylight Savings Time’.
In other words… all the times might be CORRECT… but only (exactly) 1 hour behind the real time because the camera didn’t have the right ‘Daylight Savings Time’ adjustment set.
Ask the owner of the Olympus if that might have been the case.
Would Arizona’s general lack of DST make a difference? While most of the U.S. (and a lot of their devices) is springing forward, AZ stays back an hour in standard time.
Yea… it very well could just be a DST thing.
AZ is ALWAYS an hour back… but if you simply leave the state and reset your camera’s time to something else ( Like NO DST ), and then you forget to change it back again… then all the timestamps stay 1 hour behind DST.
That could easily be the deal with this Olympus camera.
Whoops… got that wrong myself. It’s the opposite.
MOST of Arizona is just on MST all the time… with no DST changes ever kicking in at all.
Regardless… still could have been someone going on a trip, setting the camera to another time offset related to DST… and then forgetting to change back.
I actually hope that’s all it is, in this case.
Adjusting times because of an exact 60 minute discrepancy
( forward or back ) is easier than using some other weird offset.
Come to think of it, this would be the opposite direction of the camera offset.
You’re exactly right.
See what I wrote below.
The owner of the camera will look over the Holiday week, the person does not have it with them on this visit.
I asked for the person to look at the time than take a photo and then look at properties of what time the camera says to current time.
That’s exactly the right thing to do.
Thanks Joy!
Reply to Joy A. Collura post November 26, 2014 at 10:17 am
>> Joy said…
>>
>> The owner of the camera will look over the Holiday week,
>> the person does not have it with them on this visit.
Keyword = VISIT
Do you mean the person who owns this camera might be from somewhere other than Arizona?
That might actually be the ‘easy’ explanation here.
If they just occasionally VISIT the Yarnell area… but live somewhere else… then maybe the OLYMPUS camera was simply set to a time zone one hour earlier than Arizona and that’s the way they keep it set.
Your TEST will prove that, as well.
Followup…
The more I look at this… I’m starting to think it might just
be good old DST ( Daylight Savings Time ).
It may turn out that this OLYMPUS camera simply didn’t have the right DST setting and all the photo timestamps are EXACTLY 60 minutes BEHIND the real time that day.
Example: An actual time of 12:45 PM for that ‘retardant drop’ photo ( instead of 11:45 AM ) would actually ‘fit all the other evidence’ as far as when ‘Bravo 3’ was actually getting around to doing that first VLAT drop for their ‘desperation plan’ of laying that retardant line out in that ‘middle bowl’.
Ditto for the Blue Ridge buggy photo.
The buggies were NOT at YFD parking lot at 8:22 AM… but they most certainly were ( and fully parked as shown ) at 9:22 AM.
Sitta’s right. AZ doesn’t do DST.
We’ve had the same problem with cameras from outside of Arizona, one of the Air Study cameras. It was owned/set in Colorado or Montana, I remember.So it was timestamping an hour late. That would happen to me if I took my camera to AZ in the summer (if I had set it to DST–which often even I don’t do).
If I HADN’t set it to DST (which like I said above, I almost never do, cuz it mostly doesn’t matter that much) it would timestamp the photo at 8:22 AM, and be, thus, that hour early.
I’m on the run right now so replying quickly.
I was thinking about it last night. I would guess the hour would be off more than the minutes.
I really hope it’s just that simple… either a DST or TIME ZONE related offset.
Adding/Subtracting exactly 1 hour to/from timestamps is a lot easier than computing real time with some bizzare time amount.
Followup… see above. Joy said something about “the person doesn’t have the camera on this VISIT”.
If, by VISIT, she means the owner is actually from somewhere other than Arizona that could explain everything. That camera might ALWAYS be set to at timezone 1 hour earlier than Arizona. ( PST vs MST? ).
Regarding fatigue and sleep deprivation, those are issues as a general matter.
But, imo they are most relevant to overexertion and physical stress injuries/deaths, and vehicular accidents, which are the #1 and #2 causes of deaths.
We have discussed in the past whether Marsh may have been dehydrated or hypoglycemic by the afternoon, and certainly this could have impaired his judgment incrementally. But, it needs to be noted that so many basic judgment issues where whiffed in a row, that at the end of the day impairment due to fatigue or low blood sugar is not a sufficient explanation nor at all a necessary one. And, it’s entirely possible to, say, down 4 shots and still know to not take a long, slow bushwhack through dense unburned fuels with the wind blowing the fire your way. So, I wouldn’t minimize fatigue and sleep deprivation overall, but for YHF wouldn’t give them all that much weight.
Test2
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 25, 2014 at 4:05 am
>> Marti said…
>> This means the second VLAT drop with T911 couldn’t have been until WELL
>> after 1:00 PM. I think that drop is what Blue Ridge and Tom Story photographed.
I have checked all those photos including Blue Ridge, Story and even went back to check the MacKenzie ‘retardant line’ drop photos just to make sure.
The earliest timestamp I’m seeing on any drop related to building that WEST-to-EAST retardant line out in that ‘middle bowl’ is around 1:35 PM.
I was saying that 12:30 PM would be about the EARLIEST possible time that ‘Bravo 3′ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) could have ‘gotten to work’ on that retardant line just based on their own testimony and the time they actually ‘arrived’… but that still doesn’t mean that is, in fact, when the VLAT start dropping ‘out there’. It COULD have been no earlier than the 1:30 PM time frame.
The ADOSH investigators were able to make it CLEAR, during the Warbis and Lenmark combined interview, that they did KNOW circa 12:30 PM that ( in their professional estimation ) it was obvious the fire was GOING to go into Yarnell THAT day… during THAT burn cycle… and that is when they decided that ‘someone had to do something about that fact’….
…but the ADOSH investigators got distracted during this interview and were then never able to nail down exactly when the first VLAT drop actually took place to start building this WEST-to-EAST ( desperation ) retardant line.
If those early Blue Ridge photos taken at 1:35 PM and 1:39 PM really ARE the first time there was a VLAT drop on the western end of this planned ‘retardant line’… then that *might* make the Olympus up to 1 hour and 44 minutes behind the REAL time that day.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Are you sure this drop is, actually, all that far south?
I’m looking at that again right now.
Might even do one of those ‘through the looking glass’ fades from photo to Google Earth on this one to verify the location.
It’s time to be absolutely SURE what this latest photo is actually showing in order to understand what’s up with the 11:45 AM timestamp.
ALL of these most recent photos from Joy ( THANK YOU, Joy!… and Marti! ) are VERY important in one way or another…. so it is equally important to know, for sure and certain, what the story is with the Olympus timestamp(s).
More later.
PS: Here is just one example of how IMPORTANT some of these *new* photos are…
In a few of these photos… we finally see ( for sure and certain ) that the Yellow/White BLM N14HX chopper DID, in fact, have a ‘Bambi Bucket’ with it on Saturday. For the first time… we can see it sitting right there all laid out and ‘ready to be used’ on the Helipad at the Yarnell Hill Fire Station.
Only problem is… it seems as if it never WAS used on Saturday.
Or… at least not until after the fire had already ‘escaped’ from that simple area where it was officially just ‘mop up’ work for the DOC crew for over FIVE hours on Saturday.
Shumate’s testimony has been inconsistent on this.
One of the BIG questions that has always gone unanswered about his entire ‘Initial Attack’ plan all day Saturday is why ( no matter how benign the fire looked that morning and for FIVE hours after that ) he didn’t use ‘Bucket Drops’ all afternoon just to put the nails in the coffin on that simple, 2 acre fire.
He seemed to suggest ( in his own testimony and Unit Logs ) that N14HX didn’t really HAVE a ‘Bambi Bucket’ that day… and THAT is why he hadn’t been using any bucket-drops during that critical Saturday morning/afternoon timeframe.
Well… we can see now that N14HX most certainly DID have a ‘Bambi Bucket’ with it that day… and it looks like it was all laid out properly on the tarmac there by the Helipad to be hooked up and put into service at a moment’s notice that day.
The only mystery left now is why that did NOT happen on Saturday, and the fire was allowed to ‘escape’ and become the monster that it did.
Thanks, WTKTT!
I can’t even imagine a helitack helicopter without a Bambi Bucket. So seeing that bucket there didn’t even surprise me. Besides, they had their crew truck. Gimme a break.
I think that’s really a copout on Shumate’s part. OK, yeah, someone would have had to go thru the hassle of finding/setting up a water source. But there was a six-person helitack crew there! Well, minus one who was up on the fire.
For want of a nail………
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 24, 2014 at 9:39 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Joy do you have Google Maps or Google Earth?
>> I think where they are photographing from is about here:
>> 34°13’12.31″N 112°44’44.66″W
>>
>> joy responded on November 24, 2014 at 10:45 pm
>>
>> near it—leave it like that without invading who the photos
>> belong to but man you are close and you are good
Marti… I am independently CONFIRMING those coordinates, as well.
That is almost EXACTLY where most of the Olympus photos were taken.
I am also CONFIRMING that the P6300665.JPG Olympus photo of the VLAT retardant drop is, in fact, exactly where we thought it was.
That is the very START of that WEST-to-EAST retardant line there on the SOUTH side of the fire that was being ‘laid down’ by ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ).and would eventually stretch all the way across that ‘middle bowl’ to a point on the EAST side just north of Harper Canyon.
Just go into ‘Street View’ in Google Maps at your own exact coordinates above, then look due WEST and ZOOM in on the mountain range(s). You will see an exact match for the P6300665.JPG photo… right down to that little small rock feature in the foreground that looks like a ‘double bed with a pillow on it’.
Exact lat/long coords for where the retardant was ‘falling’ in this P6300665.JPG photo are coming up in another post… but I assure you… they match exactly all existing maps and photos of that ‘Bravo 3’ WEST-to-EAST retardant line.
The SHADOW on the ground in this photo actually shows you exactly where the retardant was about to hit the ground.
More later.
Followup… we also know that this new P6300665 VLAT drop photo had to be the FIRST VLAT drop in the construction of that ‘Bravo 3’ initiated WEST-to-EAST retardant line… because the photo is high enough resolution to see that there wasn’t any retardant on the ground at all yet in that location.
The exact TIME of this FIRST VLAT drop that began that log WEST-to-EAST ‘desperation move’ line of retardant?…
…still unknown, really.
I think if we match this photo with Blue Ridge VLAT drop photos it’s going to turn out to be in the 1:35 PM to 1:39 PM range.
That would put the Olympus camera time about 1 hour and 44 minutes BEHIND the REAL time that day.
Then again… maybe not. We will have to see if the Blue Ridge photos also seem to definitely be of the FIRST VLAT drop that began that retardant line construction that day.
More later.
Thanks!
That would correspond to back somewhere before when I wrote about “triangulating” with the photos of the helicopter shuttle lift carrying the Lewis Crew.
The photo of that is P6290626.JPG, time-stamped at 3:29:48 PM.
I thought that seemed early (off the top of my head), but I couldn’t remember exactly (relatively) when that happened, and didn’t have time to “go digging.”
What I was then noticing was photo P6290628.JPG of the Tonto NF Engine Crew pumping water from a hydrant into the Engine. It’s time-stamped 3:43:34 PM, not quite twenty minutes after the helicopter launched.
The thing I noticed was the shadows. They seemed WAY longer than what would be happening at that time on a mid-summer day.
That got me thinking, “I thought that crew was sent up sometime around 5-ish.”
So, if I add 1 hour and 43 minutes to that Tonto Crew photo, it ends up at about 5:26 PM, much more in line with what the shadows are in that photo.
Which would also put the launch at about 5:06 PM, more like what I remember (off the top of my head) about when that happened as per the various interviews.
So I think we’re getting into the ballpark.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 25, 2014 at 4:27 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I can’t even imagine a helitack helicopter without a Bambi Bucket.
Me neither… but this is the first time we have HARD ( incontrovertible ) PROOF that it had one… that it was THERE on Saturday… and that it was ‘ready to be used’.
That’s really important… so THANK YOU again to Joy Collura for providing these IMPORTANT photos. ( and to you for the uploads and the analysis ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I think that’s really a copout on Shumate’s part.
The ongoing confusion about whether Shumate really did have a ‘drop ready’ chopper to use all day Saturday isn’t even all Shumate’s fault. It’s another instance where the investigators couldn’t even seem to stay FOCUSED and ask him the right QUESTIONS in order to clear important things like this up.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> OK, yeah, someone would have had to go thru the hassle
>> of finding/setting up a water source.
They did ( set up a water source for Bucket Drops ).
That was the original PURPOSE of the ‘Pumpkin’ set up at the Boulder Springs Ranch. That happened on SATURDAY… but only AFTER the fire had already ‘escaped’ from the small area where it had just been ‘smoldering’ all day Saturday.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> But there was a six-person helitack crew there! Well, minus one
>> who was up on the fire.
IIRC… when the fire ‘escaped’ and Shumate finally realized the Initial Attack was ‘getting away from him’… I believe he instructed the Yarnell Fire Department people themselves to set up that pumpkin at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
I don’t know how long it took them to do that… but it was WAAAY too late in the day to be only then STARTING to set up that pumpkin or to start thinking about Bucket Drops. It should have been done EARLY MORNING on Saturday and the ‘Bucket Drop’ capabilities of N14HX SHOULD have been put to use throughout the day in support of what the Lewis DOC crew was doing up on that (small) fire.
By the time Shumate really did get ‘Bucket Ready’ that day… it was too late.
The fire had escaped his ‘Initial Attack’ and the DOC ‘mop-up’…. and it was now starting to get DARK, as well.
Followup… the real irony here is that ( apparently )… pretty much ALL the local ranchers who had a good ‘dip spot’ had ALREADY given Shumate and Arizona Forestry to use their water sources for Helicopter dips even early Saturday morning.
Shumate didn’t even really NEED to wait for that pumpkin to be set up at the Boulder Springs Ranch to be ‘Bucket Ready’ on Saturday.
He could have been using N14HX for ‘Bucket Drops’ all day long… with dips from even the same ‘Horeshoe Pond’ in Peeples Valley that would become so critical the NEXT day ( Sunday ).
It didn’t happen… and it remains one of the biggest mysteries ( and ‘fail’ moments ) of that entire weekend.
Typo above. Left the word ‘permission’ out of the first paragraph.
That first paragraph above should have read like this…
Followup… the real irony here is that ( apparently )… pretty much ALL the local ranchers who had a good ‘dip spot’ had ALREADY given PERMISSION to Shumate and Arizona Forestry to use their water sources for Helicopter dips even early Saturday morning.
This was discussed a LONG time ago but since it didn’t seem to ‘take’ back then, I’ll bring it up again:
If a pumpkin was set-up at the BSR, it was NOT for helicopter dipping. HC dip-sites are either at a STRONG water source, or NEAR easy access for a water tender parade.
BSR was neither.
In addition, it was an isolated location, which was likely to get cut-off from re-supply if the fire blew through (as it eventually did), NOT the place one would set up a critical dip-site.
There were plenty of places right off of the highway which would have met the requirements for an adequate dip-site, and would have also saved a lot of turn-around time, as well.
In it’s isolated exposure on the western fringe of the residences, the BSR would, however, have been a prime candidate for a pump, pumpkin, and sprinkler set-up, which would allow for protection of the property WITHOUT the need for crews to be present when the fire blew through.
These structure protection systems were initially assigned on the north side of the fire as it moved toward Peeples Valley. Just like everything else, when the fire turned, there wasn’t time to bring the stuff south to engage.
It would have been a very prudent decision, to pre-position a pumpkin in an area such as BSR, because in establishing a sprinkler protection system, the time it might take to set-up and fill a pumpkin, could be the weak link (time wise). If it’s already to go, just roll out the hose, connect to the sprinklers, fire up the pump and clear-out!
So, I wonder how many dollars got paid out for that helicopter and helitack crew to, mostly, sit around waiting to be put to work most of that day, while that fire eventually escaped.
Oh, that’s right, they needed more air tankers.
Another grrrrrrrrr in my very large collection of grrrrrrrrrrs.
I put this comment in the wrong place. It was a response to what you said about the permission having already been granted for helicopter dips from the landowners who had dippable waters on their properties. I wasn’t sure about that.
But fire-fighters seem to be able to figure out how to do that all the time.
And, not to mention, to ALSO sit around most of Sunday doing the same thing–mostly nothing.
So refresh my brain on this. Thanks in advance.
Are you saying there wasn’t a pumpkin at the Boulder Springs Ranch for dipping on Saturday/Sunday, or am I misreading you?
I thought there was a pumpkin there on Sunday, and that was the reason the security camera caught vehicles going in and out of there that day.
And, yes, you’re right (now that I think about it) a pumpkin wouldn’t work all that well as a dip for a helicopter. Although I have seen helicopters dipping out of large swimming pools. Now that I think about that, I guess that would require the homeowner to turn the swimming pool water supply on to keep it re-filled.
And you did say the pumpkin was set up Saturday for dipping, but just too late.
So I”m kind of confused by what you are writing.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 25, 2014 at 9:25 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So refresh my brain on this. Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Are you saying there wasn’t a pumpkin at the
>> Boulder Springs Ranch for dipping on
>> Saturday/Sunday, or am I misreading you?
On Saturday afternoon… AFTER he heard from the Lewis DOC crew that the fire had ‘escaped’ and ‘spotted over the road’… Russ Shumate himself ORDERED the Yarnell Hill Fire Department Water Tender ( and its crew ) to (quote) “create a dip site for potential bucket work”.
Actually… here is Russ Shumate’s own entry in his own official Unit Log about this…
———————————————-
“Ordered YFD ( Yarnell Fire Department ) Water Tender to utilize for creation of a dip site for potential bucket work.”
———————————————-
The YFD Water Tender ( and crew ) then immediately began to fulfill this request and set up ( and fill ) a ‘pumpkin’ out at the Boulder Springs Ranch for this ‘potential bucket work’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I thought there was a pumpkin there on Sunday,
>> and that was the reason the security camera
>> caught vehicles going in and out of there that day.
The pumpkin that the YFD Water Tender ( and crew ) set up out at the BSR on Saturday afternoon in response to Shumate’s ORDER to ‘create a dip-site’ remained there all Saturday night and all day Sunday.
As far as we know… it was NEVER actually used as a dip site because Shumate never even bothered to do any ‘bucket drops’ wiht N14HX at any time on Saturday…. even AFTER that pumpkin got set up ( and filled by the YFD Water Tender ) over at the BSR.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And, yes, you’re right (now that I think about it) a
>> pumpkin wouldn’t work all that well as a dip for
>> a helicopter.
If it is full of water… it works just fine.
Only thing you have to watch out for doing this is the enormous amount of STATIC ELECTRICITY that can build up because the rubber of the pumpkin is preventing a good ‘ground’ between the water and the chopper itself.
Here is a VIDEO of a ‘Bambi Bucket’ refill from a pumpkin… complete with huge static electricity DISCHARGE the moment the bucket gets near the pumpkin…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3djcxUCcvQ
From this Video’s ‘About’ page…
——————————————————–
Helicopter doing bucket drops ( out of a pumpkin ) on the Las Conchas Fire in New Mexico. Right before the bucket touches the water around the 8 second mark you can see the static electricity discharge.
——————————————————–
If you look at the Bambi Bucket in this video… it appears to be IDENTICAL to what we can now see lying right there on the tarmac in front of BLM chopper N14HX in Joy’s new photos.
If Shumate had actually decided to use N14HX for ‘bucket drops’ at the pumpkin that YFD had just set up out at the BSR… then the ‘dips’ would have looked just like the VIDEO up above.
Everything would have been fine. He just never bothered to try.
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> And you did say the pumpkin was set up
>> Saturday for dipping, but just too late.
Yes.
See my ‘reply’ to TTWARE’s post just below.
It has excerpts from Russ Shumate’s own official Unit Log AND I included the times when Shumate says he actually ‘used’ the N14HX chopper on Saturday to help timestamp those new Olympus photos.
Reply to TTWARE post on November 25, 2014 at 8:23 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> This was discussed a LONG time ago but since it didn’t
>> seem to ‘take’ back then, I’ll bring it up again:
Yes… this has been discussed before… but the reason it ‘didn’t stick’ is because what I said above is TRUE… and it is Russ Shumate himself who says ( in his own Unit Logs ) that is what happened.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> If a pumpkin was set-up at the BSR, it was NOT for
>> helicopter dipping.
Yes. It was.
See Russ Shumate’s own ‘Unit Log’ entries reprinted below.
>> TTWARE also said
>>
>> HC dip-sites are either at a STRONG water source,
>> or NEAR easy access for a water tender parade.
>>
>> BSR was neither.
Agree… but tell that to the Yarnell Fire Department Water Tender crew.
When Russ Shumate ORDERED them to ‘create a dip site for potential bucket work’… the Boulder Springs Ranch is the place THEY ( The YFD Water Tender crew ) chose to do that ( late Saturday afternoon ).
Again… see Russ Shumate’s own Unit Logs below.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> In addition, it was an isolated location, which was likely
>> to get cut-off from re-supply if the fire blew through
>> (as it eventually did), NOT the place one would set
>> up a critical dip-site.
Again… your expertise shows… but tell that to the YFD crew.
By the way… as far as we know… even though the YFD Water Tender crew CHOSE to set this pumpkin up at the Boulder Springs Ranch late Saturday in response to ICT Russ Shumate’s ORDER to them to ‘create a dip site for potential bucket work’… it was never actually USED for that.
Even after Russ Shumate realized ( way too late in the day ) that he needed ‘Bucket’ capability and ordered the YFD people to set that up… there is no evidence he ever did any bucket drops at all on Saturday.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> There were plenty of places right off of the highway
>> which would have met the requirements for an
>> adequate dip-site, and would have also saved a
>> lot of turn-around time, as well.
Yep. The only reason I can think of why Russ Shumate would have told the Yarnell Fire Department people to suddenly ‘create a dip-site for potential bucket work’ ( and they responded by setting up that pumpkin at the BSR )… is because ICT Russ Shumate himself must have been totally clueless about all those other ‘ponds’ around there… and also have been totally clueless that these ranchers had (supposedly) already given Arizona Forestry permission to use them as ‘dip sites’.
Russ Shumate was not ‘on top of things’ that day at all.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> In it’s isolated exposure on the western fringe of the
>> residences, the BSR would, however, have been a
>> prime candidate for a pump, pumpkin, and sprinkler
>> set-up, which would allow for protection of the
>> property WITHOUT the need for crews to be present
>> when the fire blew through.
There is no evidence any ‘sprinkler’ system was ever set up along with that pumpkin out at the BSR.
It was (apparently) never used as a ‘dip site’ ( which was its original purpose on Saturday )… but it then apparenly became ‘useful’ on Sunday for refilling engines since the security cameras DO show a lot of engines ‘coming and going’ through the BSR front gate.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> These structure protection systems were initially
>> assigned on the north side of the fire as it moved
>> toward Peeples Valley. Just like everything else, when
>> the fire turned, there wasn’t time to bring the stuff
>> south to engage.
If anyone had listened to ‘Bravo 3’ circa 12:30 PM… there would have been plenty of time for that sort of thing down south.
As early as 12:30 PM that day… ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) were as SURE as they could be that the fire was GOING to be going into Yarnell THAT afternoon… during THAT day’s burn cycle… which is why they started laying that long line of retardant on the SOUTH side of the fire circa 12:30 to 1:00 PM.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> It would have been a very prudent decision,
>> to pre-position a pumpkin in an area such as BSR,
>> because in establishing a sprinkler protection system,
>> the time it might take to set-up and fill a pumpkin,
>> could be the weak link (time wise). If it’s already to
>> go, just roll out the hose, connect to the sprinklers,
>> fire up the pump and clear-out!
That all makes sense… but it was still NOT the reason that pumpkin was originally set up at the BSR late Saturday afternoon.
What follows is all from ICT Russ Shumate’s own official Unit Log.
Page 33 of the ‘Unit Logs’ that weren’t released until February of 2014…
NOTE: This is not the FULL text of Shumate’s Unit Log. It is only the parts that pertain to the Yellow/White BLM Helicopter N14HX, and how Shumate told YFD to ‘set up a dip site’ ( at Boulder Springs Ranch ) late Saturday only AFTER the fire had ‘escaped’ and he realized he needed ‘Bucket Drops’ to try and help contain the ‘escaped’ fire.
I am also including the parts where Shumate details exactly when he used the Yellow/White BLM Chopper N14HX for crew shuttles since that’s directly relevant to evaluating 2 of Joy’s recently released photos.
———————————————————————–
Yarnell Hill Fire
IA Action Log
Compiled from handwritten notes and recollections by
Russ Shumate
July 19, 2013
Page 34 ( of 51 pages )…
Friday night, 28 June, 2013
…
BLM would have eng 1660 and a T3 helo ( N14HX ) as well as overhead report to Yarnell in the morning.
…
Saturday, 29 June, 2013
…
In service, enroute to Yarnell Hill fire at approximately 0530.
On scene at Yarnell Fire Department 0645.
…
BLM had ordered a T3 helo ( N14HX ) to come out of Payson, and as soon as practical fly a recon of the fire and deliver a BLM IC ( Dean Fernandez ) to assist in the day’s response.
…
Helo will recon Yarnell hill and find helispots to insert folks.
Then stage to support ongoing ops, and respond to any new starts in the area. YFD ( Yarnell Fire Station ) will be helibase.
…
1000 – AA on Scene as well as Helo N14HX. Recon the fire, size up 2-8 acres from air, found a helispot. AA will work with SEATS to surround fire with retardant.
…
I determine the best course of action would be to fly in a half crew to coldtrail and mop up. The plan is to limit the total number of folks on the hill to a manageable number to allow the T3 Helo ( N14HX ) to quickly retrieve them in case t-storms move in.
…
At approximately 1045, 6 Lewis crew members ( 1 CRWB, 1 CRWB(t), 4 fft’s) ad 1 Helitack ( also qual’ed at a T4IC but remaining as helitack for this assignment ) are inserted at helispot and hike approx 1/4 mile (south from helispot ) down the jeep trail to the fire.
…
Size up remains 2 acres and very little heat. Will coldtrail and mop up.
They plan to be flown off at around 1600 ( 5 hrs, 15 min after insertion ).
No other smokes showing around area.
…
1530-1630 Lewis DOC crew ( up at site ) started to report creepiing fire on the west side of the fire in the rocks on the steep slope. I determined that more folks were needed on the hill, and thunderstorm buildup was not moving our way. The altitude density was going to affect how many folks per ( helo ) load, however. I directed a sling load of bladder bags be sent up, and half the helitack crew shuttle up. DURING this operation ( the delivery of the bladder bags to the fire by Helo N14HX ) a green island on the east side of the fire started to flare up. The Lewis crew moved to address this and the bladder bags were set down ( by Helo N14HX ) NEAR them. SW winds increased at this point and the flare up spotted over the road.7 helitack were delivered to the helispot. 6 hiked to the fire ( after arriving at the helispot ) and one remained at the helispot for helitack duties.
…
1600 Spot across the road was (now) established and crews were having a difficult time hooking it. Slop was (now) approximately 1-2 acres. Ordered AA and SEATs to launch. Ordered YFD ( Yarnell Fire Department ) Water Tender to utilize for creation of a dip site for potential bucket work.
…
1730-1830 shuttled up supplies ( using Helo N14HX ), but fire is below helispot so helitack person at helispot is picked up and (additional) crew shuttle canceled. Operations continue on the hill, anchor and flank east flank with a total of 14 folks on the hill. Start ordering up forces for tomorrow. Operations expected to last all night so a replacement ICT3 is ordered. Paul Mussar was going to be the one to fill this order.
….
1942 – Sunset
———————————————————–
END OF EXCERPTS FROM SHUMATE’S UNIT LOG
So the key statement from Russ Shumate himself is…
———————————————-
“Ordered YFD ( Yarnell Fire Department ) Water Tender to utilize for creation of a dip site for potential bucket work.”
———————————————-
Shumate’s request that they suddenly go off and CREATE a ‘dip site’ somewhere close by ( they chose the BSR ) means he really must have been clueless about all the other already-existing dip sites in the area such as the ‘Horsehoe pond’ just a few miles up the road in Peeples Valley.
It’s also astonishing that (apparently) none of the YFD personnel themselves didn’t then inform him there was no need to ‘create’ a dip-site at all. There were plenty of them in the area.
They didn’t. They just took off to the Boulder Springs Ranch and started setting up that ‘pumpkin’ to be used as a ‘dip site’. Weird.
BTW… after Shumate says he ORDERED the Yarnell Fire Department Water Tender ( and crew ) to ‘create a dip site for potential bucket work’ ( which they then proceeded to do by installing/filling a pumpkin at the Boulder Springs Ranch )…
…he never mentions this again in his Unit Logs.
He never says what TIME the pumpkin was finally ‘set up’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch… and he never mentions even trying to use Helicopter N14HX to do any ‘Bucket Work’ at all.
I still believe if he had been using N14HX for ‘Bucket Work’ all day Saturday in support of the Lewis DOC crew… there is a good chance none of us would be here discussing anything at all… and 19 good men would still be alive.
WTKTT,
When I first started reading your post, I thought I had missed something previously, and that maybe the YFD HAD just chosen a very poor location for a dip-site for all the reasons I mentioned above.
But after re-reading the transcripts you have posted, it seems you are taking a bit of a leap in stating the BSR pumpkin WAS the one set-up by the YFD per Shumate’s order.
You keep saying “it was in Shumate’s logs”, but there is nothing of the kind there. There IS an order to create a dip-site, but there is NO “where” there,
And indeed, there isn’t ANY evidence in the record that YFD even followed through with the order. You have created a pretty big narrative above that they did, along with where they did it, but those are just assumptions you have made..
There was likely more than one pumpkin set up on the YHF (for example, with the structure protection efforts to the north, although the documentation of ALL such efforts is very lacking), and there is NO evidence in anything you have provided so far, that a YFD pumpkin was ever placed at the BFR.
I am always willing to stand corrected, but at this time, I still believe that the YFD would have positioned a dip-site, either near a strong water source, or at a place with easy access.
As I said above, BSR was neither, and in fact, was probably the worst of many options.
Fire departments utilizing water tenders realize that turn around time is critical during any kind of firefight. The BRS location makes no sense at all, under any circumstances (except to source a sprinkler system)..
In the video you posted above, you will notice that there are 2 pumpkins there. That is because helicopter bucket-work can use an incredible amount of water in a short period of time, and the second pumpkin is needed just to keep up (and with this, I’m not saying that a single pumpkin at a STRONG water source couldn’t keep up with one helicopter). And then there has to be an array of watertenders (which are not dedicated to filling engines), DEDICATED to try and keep the pumpkins full. And, yada, yada, yada.
So, at this time, I’m willing to give the YFD the benefit of the doubt, until I can be proven wrong with anything other than speculation.
Followup:
The wording of Shumate’s notes: “Ordered YFD ( Yarnell Fire Department ) Water Tender to utilize for creation of a dip site for potential bucket work.” could certainly be taken more than one way.
He may be simply noting a “resource order”, which would be dedicated too, and necessary for, the SUPPORT of a potential dip-site, and not necessarily setting up the pumpkin itself. (A pumpkin without a supply is useless).
Also, WTKTT’s comment that the engines seen coming and going from the ranch were being re-supplied by the pumpkin makes no sense. After one go-round, the pumpkin would be empty and useless. Having a water tender then come in and refill it, would also make no sense, since the same water tender could have just sat up on the highway and filled those same engines, eliminating a ridiculous amount of travel time for everybody.
Most the the engines and vehicles I saw in the videos appeared to be part of a task force, possibly surveying the area for access and structures.
TTWARE… I don’t have much time at the moment but just wanted to acknowledge seeing your replies above.
There is OTHER evidence that backs up what Shumate requested and how that request got fulfilled as described above.
Some of it is from YFD folks themselves.
They WERE doing the things that you don’t think would ‘make any sense’. Such was the Yarnell Hill Fire.
You are still right that this has all been covered before. I’ll go back and see if I can find where I covered all this before and then post some links when I have a better moment to do so.
Thanks for that refresher, too!
Regarding Brendan McDonough and his YH Fire deposition
According to two separate Arizona Municipal/Structure/Wildland Fire Department Battalion Chiefs, GMHS survivor Brendan McDonough was deposed on or about the week of the last week in October or the first week in November.
heard the same RobertTHE2nd…
try again.I am trying to figure out the politics of this fire. People who normally hug me are different to me when in a group and about one hour ago I truly never imagined my first encounter of meeting Amanda Marsh to be just a run in at the Country Corner gas station in my town of Congress. I was doing Sonny’s coffee and gabbing away with my ol’ hiking pal/friend Ronda Carnes as I was looking at the ground and saw toes..odd…I thought Amanda Marsh and I never met Amanda nor seen her toes and I look up and say “hello Amanda” and she looked at me “do I know you?” and I replied “I’m Joy” She returned the hello. I told her I never thought the week I am ill and passing out would be my first encounter with her and she replied hope I feel better. I can tell you her “in person” with me is not at all what I imagined. It reminded me of the time I was at the celeb golf tournament having a good time with some A-list celebs and well one celeb who I liked his acting he looked at me like “who are you” and “why you even in my space”…that is how I felt around her. I do not know what goes on today at the senior/community center with all the cars piled outside; some sort of meeting but I can tell you some big behind the scenes things I know for facts are brewing and I can guarantee this is going to be an interesting Holiday Season or 2015. I wish I had said Happy Thanksgiving but I was not even rolling for today to think on that so Happy Thanksgiving Amanda. I gotta run. I just want you to know three firefighters reached out to me this week and let me share some heavy shit is going to come out…in their time or God’s…I mean HEAVY…that is fact not rumor.
another person died in town sonny said—bruce johnson— platts father-in-law couldn’t revive him
I’m assuming an actual ‘depostion’ would be related to the ‘wrongful deaths’ civil suit(s)…
but any word on whether this ‘deposition’ was at the request of the plaintiffs attroneys ( families ) at the request of the defendants attorneys ( Arizona Attorney General’s office )?
I have been saying for some time now that given all the evidence that has emerged… it really would behoove BOTH sides of the case to know what ‘really happened’ now.
It can still be ‘argued’ any number of ways in court… but the time for it being unclear as to what REALLY happened that day is over.
Agreed, but no telling on the details yet.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS. YOU WILL BE SORRY YOU DID.
Thank you.
What I probably SHOULD have said above was…
I have been saying for some time now that given all the evidence that HAS (already) emerged… and the body of evidence that most probably exists but has YET to ’emerge’… it really would behoove BOTH sides of the case to know what ‘really happened’.
Attorneys don’t like SURPRISES once they get into court.
Indeed… the laws surrounding the ‘discovery’ process insure that whatever one side intends to present in court MUST be know ( ahead of time ) by the other side.
So, I”m going to repost my descriptions of/links to the photos Joy sent me on November 13, because the way things posted as I was writing them below, is kind of a jumbled mess.
I’m going to post each folder as a separate thread under this one. So they can be discussed in a relatively coherent order.
The first folder is “2014-11-13 Canon Powershot.”
These are from a Canon Powershot A495, photo 1830, captured 6/28 at 5:45 PM, and photos 1831-1852, captured 6/29, from 6 PM to 8:15 PM.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l2m3m11h6a1l14a/AAAM0YxXU2mR31DQvm9GRo36a?dl=0
The first image, 1830 is from 6/28 at 5:45 PM. Shows the smoke blowing. I don’t know where it was taken from, so I don’t know which way the smoke is blowing.
The rest of the photos, taken on the evening of 6/29 are taken from the same place, generally, I think. The first was taken at 6 PM. The last was taken at 8:15 PM. There are 20 images in this totally stunning sequence of images showing the the fire growing powerfully and rapidly as the sun sets.
I’m thinking they are shot from the north to the south, because the way the light is, it looks like sun is setting to the right.
The first image, 1830 is from 6/28 at 5:45 PM. Shows the smoke blowing. I don’t know where it was taken from, so I don’t know which way the smoke is blowing
reply: the smoke is coming from the Congress side blowing in the direction towards the 2 track ridge/Helms/deployment area
Gotcha. Thanks!
The rest of the photos, taken on the evening of 6/29 are taken from the same place, generally, I think. The first was taken at 6 PM. The last was taken at 8:15 PM. There are 20 images in this totally stunning sequence of images showing the the fire growing powerfully and rapidly as the sun sets.
I’m thinking they are shot from the north to the south, because the way the light is, it looks like sun is setting to the right.
reply: it looks like from this area… parcel 203-07-037D off happy way…mountain side view of the other mountain side view of the Weaver Mountains
OK. Happy Way runs southeast off of 89 just a couple of block south of where the iPod photos were taken. So she’s shooting towards the northwest.
The next folder is 2014-11-13 iPod Touch
These were taken with an iPod Touch, photos IMG_0021.JPG thru IMG_1830.JPG, taken 6/29 at 8:14 PM thru 6/30 at 3:49 PM.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/udgzkgx65b3h9b4/AABhzlPUvE670erL6xttE3Qna?dl=0
The first four photos in this folder are geocoded. The geocoding leads to a spot on 89 just southwest of where Shrine Road intersects it.
They were taken between 8:14 and 8:16 Saturday night. They’re looking toward the fire burning on the mountain. It’s really quite an impressive scene.
The next image is a vertical of the same view, taken at 8:18. It looks like the photographer may have used Microsoft Windows Photo Gallery to turn it upright. It has no geocoding.
All the rest of the photos in this folder are not geocoded.
There is a file name gap between the fourth photo and the fifth photo. The fourth photo is 0023 and the next one is 0043.
The next photo, 0044, was taken on June 30 at 10:24 AM. There are lots of gaps in the sequencing. which totally makes sense becuz people normally take lots more digital images than they “share.”
OK. Figured it out. 0045 thru 0061 are taken from just south of the Yarnell Fire Department.
0044 is taken at 10:24 AM and 0061 is taken at 3:40 PM. So they show the impressive growth of the smoke from, basically, the same location.
the gap is home project photos—not fire photos.
Totally understandable!
that looks like crest way or lookaway area the non-geo coded area pics—near hope way…but seems high so crest way
Yes. The Fire Department opens onto LookaWay, and the church is just kittycorner to the Fire Department.
Crest Way is on the other (southeast) side and runs parallel to 89 and Lookaway and then curves to the left (northwest) around the church and then intersects with 89.
or there are tall homes there on the hill in between crest and lookaway
makes sense so they were on the hill part
Yeah, I think they were “up above” the YFD on Crest Way. There’s that bunch of trees there between them and the Fire Department building in IMG_0061.JPG. which is taken at 3:40 PM.
You can really see the smoke column turning and getting really thick and ominous in these images.
Joy do you have Google Maps or Google Earth?
I think where they are photographing from is about here:
34°13’12.31″N 112°44’44.66″W
near it—leave it like that without invading who the photos belong to but man you are close and you are good…
And where the geotagged night photos from Saturday night were taken was about here:
34°13’18.18″N 112°44’49.95″W
The next folder is 2014-11-13 Olympus.
These are from an Olympus FE-5010 X-915, photos P6290612 thru P7030685, taken 6/29 at 1 PM thru 7/3 at 11:17 AM.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sdewpeomabowpk6/AACZ0gUt3eCVq59GcKLgb1Qta?dl=0
The Olympus folder has 74 photos, from 6/29 to 7/3, so it’s a pretty big collection.
All times are rounded to the next closest minute. Cuz……typing.
The first 34 images were taken between 1:03 PM and 8:30 PM on 6/29.
The first four (P6290612.JPG thru P6290615.JPG) show the Yarnell Fire Department and what looks like the prepping of the yellow BLM N14 helicopter.
The Tonto NF Engine 58 is there, along with four “Wild Land Fire Crew” buggies and what looks like a chase truck and a jeep.
There’s also an impressive solar array on a building in the first photo.
The next ten images, P6290616.JPG thru P6290625.JPG, taken from 2:56 to 3:12 PM, are of the smoke as seen from that parking lot (the one with the great view).
The next three shots, taken from 3:30 to 3:44 show the helicopter lifting, while leaving its Bambi Bucket on the tarmack, and flying, and then the crew of Tonto NF Enging 58 (I would assume) filling the Engine with water from a hydrant.
BTW, the woman firefighter in this photo is Emily Chevalier, Resource Order E-9.5. We’ve seen her in a number of images and maybe even interviews, I think. I tried to find her on the google machine, but apparently she keeps a low online profile. I just totally love her name.
The next four images, showing more smoke on the mountain, are taken from 4:25 to 4:27.
The next image, P6290633, taken at 4:28 PM, is of the BLM Helitack Chase Truck, logic would dictate.
The next nine images are from 5:31 PM to 5:57, showing the fire getting brighter and brighter as the sky gets darker and darker. The first image shows a SEAT drop. The last shows a plane that I don’t, at the moment, know what it is.
The next three images are my favorites. They’re from 8:20 PM to 8:30 PM. As the exposure gets darker and darker, the shutter gets relatively slower and slower, so these are wonderful abstracts.
By the next image, P6300646.JPG, it’s 8:22 in the morning of June 30. From this image thru P6300669.JPG, taken at 1:13 PM, there are 24 images taken on June 30.
The first eight images are, again, taken near the Yarnell Fire Department. The first is of the smoke, the second (taken at 8:23 AM) is of the 2 Blue Ridge Buggies, one of their chase trucks, and two other random vehicles.
Then another smoke shot, and then an 8:27 AM photo, P6300649, of a bunch of firefighters sitting down near seven gray and white trucks. There’s also an open Crew Buggy door, right in front of them, that I really really need someone to talk me down and tell me why it isn’t, of a Granite Mountain Buggy. Because right now I think it is. Hm…… ………..
The next six, from 8:20 to 10:09 are more smoke shots.
The next five, from 10:12 AM to 10:16 AM, are of a DC 10. There’s no slurry dropping from it.
Then there’s a 180 mm focal length zoom shot (P630065) of something that I don’t know what it is, at 10:43 AM.
Actually, now I think it’s of the T-1 Helitanker that’s in the next two shots.
Then we see another shot (P6300662), at 11:41, of a DC-10.
Two more smoke shots at 11:42 AM.
And then we see P6300665, at 11:46, a DC-10 dropping retardant, with whoever’s flying Air Attack at that time (probably Bravo 3) flying above it.
Next, there’s a 12:14 PM smoke shot from I don’t know where.
Then a 1:12 PM DC-10 shot. Then two 1:12 PM ish photos of smoke and the DC-10 flying away from the drop.
So, that’s the end of the 6/30 Olympus photos.
The next sixteen photos are from July 3. The first is from 11:14 AM, and the last is from 11;16 AM, so this is a quick series.
It’s basically a series of shots, from somewhere up pretty high, of Main Street Yarnell, the streets being pretty much empty. Good images of what Yarnell essentially looked like on the Third of July.
OK, that’s what these photos are of, generally speaking.
My daughter just called me to tell me my mom just sorta kinda fell but she’s ok, and that people were trying to get hold of me, but nobody has called me on either of my
phones all day–I just checked.
And tomorrow’s my birthday and I have to pick a restaurant…..so there’s that.
OK. I”m talking me down.
The circular logo on that door is much smaller than the circular logo on the back door (as seen in Tom Story’s photo 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1692.jpg) of the Granite Mountain Buggy.
That’s good, all things considered.
#38 has been identified as the Lewis Prison Crew
Ahh. OK. Totally makes sense.
The crew in the 38th photo (P6300649.JPG) is the Lewis Crew, and that’s probably their buggy.
#54 is my favorite pic and #64 you see the home on the top left that is how we went in both Saturday and Sunday and wrapped around the boulderous hill and ended up behind the Helm’s on state land area…
Yep, #54 (P6300665.JPG) is a great shot of the DC 10 doing that 11:46 drop. That would be the first DC 10 drop on the fire.
The DC 10 was circling and holding as Bravo 3 was arriving and then taking over Air Attack duties from Rory Collins.
Then Bravo 3 directed the drop, and then Bravo 3 did the noon recon flight in which “he” realized the fire was most likely to turn around as the monsoons hit and burn back uphill to the south/southwest and hit Yarnell THAT AFTERNOON.
“#64 you see the home on the top left that is how we went in both Saturday and Sunday and wrapped around the boulderous hill and ended up behind the Helm’s on state land area…”
Ah, yes, that is P7030675.JPG.
Marti… see my other post about this (supposed) 11:46 PM retardant drop photo ‘out in the middle bowl’.
‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) didn’t even arrive over Yarnell until about NOON ( verified in Air Logs )… and then didn’t start ANY retardant drops out in the ‘middle bowl’ until about 12:30 PM.
So there is something ‘funky’ going on with that photo… and the 11:46 AM TIMESTAMP on it.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 24, 2014 at 6:45 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> OK. I”m talking me down.
>>
>> The circular logo on that door is much smaller than the
>> circular logo on the back door (as seen in Tom Story’s
>> photo 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1692.jpg) of the Granite
>> Mountain Buggy.
I thought exactly what you did when I saw that open door of that Crew Carrier and the logo.
More ‘talk down’…
It looks more like the standard ‘Arizona Forestry’ logo with the TREE in it.
The same one seen on the sides of pickup trucks in the Tom Story photos.
I can tell you I thought all blue helmets were blue ridge yet when I had my defensible space done I learned that was not true-Andrew Williams of the Lewis Prison Crew educated me. They had blue hats. 3 crew members wear the blue hats by the squad bosses. The blue hats were to distinguish between squad bosses and crew members. The rest wore yellow hats.
Yeah, it can get really confusing.
On the Slide Fire there were two crews wearing blue helmets, Blue Ridge and, I think, Navajo IHC.
There’s no consistent pattern.
Although generally, but not always, white helmets often signify some version of “Overhead.”
We’ve agonized a lot, when trying to identify the players on this fire, what helmets might indicate who is wearing them. We’ve gotten lost in a lot of weeds trying to do this.
Joy, you wrote, downstream:
NOVEMBER 24, 2014 AT 11:27 AM
“Marti- will you be adding the past 2 weeks of photos to that link here or another one?”
Pretty much all I’m thinking I’ve gotten from you, other than these that I’ve posted today are the ones that, I think, are from “Leonard” and those “map photos” that I don’t know what they are.
I’m thinking I should hold off on posting the “Leonard” photos until I know more about them, and I don’t know what the “map photos” are enough to post them.
Is that what you are thinking about? Am I missing anything?
sounds good Marti
near the helicopter and Chuck Tidey with long hair is the Lewis Crew. The other two buggies are Yuma Crew. They took lewis crew up to the fire in helicopter. Only 6 men went up.
Thanks Joy!
LOL. I was, like, “Is that a woman?????? That can’t be a woman! But wait, maybe????”
Chuck Tidey has 5 weeks of radiation therapy so keep him in your prayers…he heads the YHRG.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
November 24, 2014 at 6:30 pm
>> Marti wrote…
>>
>> The next folder is 2014-11-13 Olympus.
Great job with ALL of these new photos, Marti.
Thank you!
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> The next five, from 10:12 AM to 10:16 AM,
>> are of a DC 10. There’s no slurry dropping from it.
Hmm… this might indicated a problem with the TIMES for these photos.
As far as we know… there WAS no DC10 over Yarnell in this timeframe.
According to the ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) interview with ADOSH… it was at least an hour after that before the first DC10 even showed up over Yarnell that day.
See more about this down below regarding the other possible ‘too early’ DC10 VLAT drop photo.
>> Then there’s a 180 mm focal length
>> zoom shot (P630065) of something that I
>> don’t know what it is, at 10:43 AM.
The same SKYCRANE Helo photographed in the NEXT two photos is also in this one. Small red object about middle right center.
>> Actually, now I think it’s of the T-1 Helitanker
>> that’s in the next two shots.
Yes. I believe that is the SKYCRANE that almost collided with the VLAT that day ( also seen in photo above, right middle center ).
>> Then we see another shot (P6300662), at 11:41, of a DC-10.
We are now closer to the time when the first DC10 VLAT was *supposed* to have FIRST shown up over Yarnell… but not BEFORE this time.
Again… see below.
>> Two more smoke shots at 11:42 AM.
>>
>> And then we see P6300665, at 11:46, a DC-10
>> dropping retardant, with whoever’s flying Air
>> Attack at that time (probably Bravo 3) flying
>> above it.
Okay… full stop required here.
Something is WEIRD here with this VLAT photo, the TIME, and the drop location out there in that ‘middle bow’ on the SOUTH side of the fire.
In their ADOSH interview… ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) said that THEY were the ones who directed the ‘first VLAT drops’ over Yarnell that day.
They were a little ‘late’ arriving to the fire ( circa NOON ), and the VLAT had arrived just before them and ( according to them ) had simply just been ‘orbiting’ before they arrived.and waiting for an ‘Air Attack’ to direct them to do something.
Rory Collins had left the airspace over Yarnell BEFORE ‘Bravo 3’ actually arrived ( circa NOON ) and Collins ‘briefed’ the incoming ‘Bravo 3’ over the radio after he had already left the Yarnell airspace.
‘Bravo 3’ shows up to find this FIRST DC10 VLAT ‘orbiting around’ and waiting for them… and then ‘Bravo 3’ starts talking directly to Darrell Willis on the ground. ‘Bravo 3’ then says ( for sure and certain ) that the FIRST VLAT drop they directed was on the NORTH side of the fire to help protect structures that were directly threatened as they arrived.
It was only after doing this initial work ( right after arriving around NOON ) on the NORTH side of the fire that ‘Bravo 3’ then took a full ‘spin’ around the entire fire perimeter.
That would have been about 12:20 to 12:30 PM.
THAT is when ‘Bravo 3’ decided there was NO DOUBT that the fire would be going into Yarnell THAT afternoon ( during THAT day’s burn cycle ) and they decided they ‘better try and do something about it’.
So THAT is when they (supposedly) first started doing those WEST-to-EAST retardant drops ( utilizing the DC10 VLAT ) out there in the that ‘bowl’ on the SOUTH side of the fire.
So something is not right here with this P6300665 photo.
According to ‘Bravo 3’… they didn’t even START directing any VLATs to be dropping retardant out in that ‘middel bowl’ on the SOUTH side of the fire until around 12:30 PM.
That’s a minimum of 44 minutes AFTER this P6300665 photograph of retardant being dropped in ‘the bowl’ was supposedly taken ( at 11:46 AM ).
We KNOW that ‘Bravo 3’ was telling the truth to ADOSH about not arriving over Yarnell until right about NOON because of the following entry from the official ‘Bravo 3’ Air Logs included in the SAIT Dropbox…
—————————————————–
Bravo-3 Air Log
From page 64 of “I-Dispatch Records.pdf”
file in the SAIT FOIA release
——————————————————
WildCAD
Arizona Dispatch Center
Timer Report Resource,
Date: BRAVO – 3, 6/30/2013 11:52:09 AM
Incident: A1S-2013-707
Columns…
Timer Log, Date, Dispatcher, Log Entry
——————————————————————-
6/30/2013 11:52:59 AM ALH OK: SHOWING 8 MIN OUT IN CONTACT WITH AA –
6/30/2013 12:07:32 PM ALH OK: DVI
( Many more log entries follow for ‘Bravo 3’ )
——————————————————————
SIDENOTE: I don’t actually know what the letters DVI mean as a ‘Log Entry’ in an Air Dispatch Log. My guess might be ‘Direct View of Incident’, or something? Anyone else know?
Either way… the very first ‘Air Log’ entry for ‘Bravo 3’ is the proof that they didn’t arrive over Yarnell until right around NOON ( just as they thought so when being interviewed by ADOSH ).
They were still ‘8 minutes out’ from Yarnell at 11:52 AM.
So given the fact that they arrived over the fire only around NOON and then put that ‘first VLAT’ to work up on the NORTH side of the fire… and it then took a while for them to ‘fly around the fire’ and then even come up with the plan to start dropping that ‘retardant’ line out in the bowl… it really couldn’t have been any earlier than about 12:30 PM before the first VLAT drop took place ‘out there’.
But the time on that photo still says it was happening at least 44 minutes earlier… at 11:46 AM
** POSSIBLE EXPLANATION(S)…
The only ‘explanations’ I can come up with ( off the top of my head ) to make all this make sense would go something like this…
1) This Olympus camera’s time was simply set about 44 minutes BEHIND the REAL time that day.
2) The first DC10 VLAT to arrive in Yarnell that day was ‘over the fire’ MUCH earlier than ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) told ADOSH in their interview.
If that is/was the case… then the following might also be true…
Rory Collins was still ‘Air Attack’ when this DC10 actually arrived and Collins had NOT left the airspace yet.
Contrary to what Warbis and Lenmark then told ADOSH… it was then Rory Collins who was directing these ‘first VLAT drops’ over Yarnell that day… and not THEM when they arrived circa NOON.
Rory Collins himself then used that newly arrived VLAT to start dropping retardant down in that ‘bowl’ on the SOUTH side long before Warbis and Lenmark started doing that themselves circa 12:30 PM.
Then Collins really did have to leave the fire… and that VLAT went into a ‘holding pattern’ waiting for the NEXT ‘Air Attack’ ( Bravo 3 ) to arrive circa NOON.
So perhaps Collins HAD been ‘putting this VLAT’ to work already ( on the SOUTH side of the fire ) before ‘Bravo 33’ ever arrived… and Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark were just ASSUMING it had been just ‘orbiting’ and waiting for THEM to arrive before doing anything that day.
That ‘scenario’ could account for the time on this photo… but there is NOTHING in any interview with Rory Collins himself where he said he started directing any VLAT drops at all prior to leaving the fire just before ‘Bravo 3’ arrived…. much less anything about VLAT drops out there in that ‘middle bowl’ on the SOUTH side of the fire that early in the day.
More later…
Good catch WTKTT, thanks!
AZ Dispatch WildCAD Log Aircraft Log
this is the first notations regarding the VLAT 910
at 11:31:08 Barry PDC WR T910 is 15 mins from the fire//copy and to answer your question we dont have a need for PDC tanker base as our Helibase for now per NT//copy
at 11:42:46 T910 WR was is the status of the Bravo ship//we are checking on it//copy
at 11:46:07 Barry WR B-3 is 15 mins out and relay that that Heavy and VLAD on the scene
at 11:51:14 fabian WR my pilot on T-810 said no one is over the fire so I will put them on hold until someone is over it//B-3 is 8 mins out.
at 12:50:25 Kim WH no eta for the other VLAD
at 13:42:24 B-3 ALH give Yarnell a heads up that they might need evacuate we have trigger points set up but need need so start pre evac notice and we have spotting in the East SIDE
These logs are really interesting and really sketchy. There’s a lot missing. But there’s also a lot there.
L- Aviation – no redactions doesn’t start logging the flights until 13:04.
T-911 Flight Origin PUB Flight Destination IWA Meter Start: 13:04 Meter Stop 15:12
(PUB is Pueblo, IWA is Phoenix Gateway)
So that’s pretty much the time-frame for these first two DC-10 flights.
Happy Birthday, Marti!
Thank you!! OK back to bed.
HappybbibirthdaMarti
Wait, one more comment.
L- Aviation – no redactions also says:
………Assigned Time
N45AX VLAT 1032
N17085 VLAT 1258
This means the second VLAT drop with T911 couldn’t have been until WELL after 1:00 PM. I think that drop is what Blue Ridge and Tom Story photographed.
It’s really hard, sometimes, to get these drops figured out, location-wise.
Remember, the VLAT split at around 4:15 looked like (in the Air Study videos( it was practically on top of, first Hays Ranch Road, and then, the Model Creek Road Burnout, when it was actually way further over near Miner’s Camp Road, where the Structure Protection Group under Todd Foster was.
Are you sure this drop is, actually, all that far south?
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 25, 2014 at 4:05 am
>> Marti said…
>> This means the second VLAT drop with T911 couldn’t
>> have been until WELL after 1:00 PM. I think that drop
>> is what Blue Ridge and Tom Story photographed.
I have checked all those photos including Blue Ridge, Story and even went back to check MacKenzie retardant drop photos.
The earliest timestamp I’m seeing on any drop related to building that WEST-to-EAST retardant line out in that ‘middle bowl’ is around 1:35 PM.
I was saying that 12:30 PM would be about the EARLIEST possible time that ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) could have ‘gotten to work’ on that retardant line just based on their own testimony and the time they actually ‘arrived’… but that still doesn’t know that is, in fact, when the VLAT start dropping ‘out there’. It COULD have been no earlier than the 1:30 PM time frame.
That *might* make the Olympus up to 1 hour and 44 minutes behind the REAL time that day.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Are you sure this drop is, actually, all that far south?
I’m looking at that again right now.
Might even do one of those ‘through the looking glass’ fades from photo to Google Earth on this one to verify the location.
It’s time to be absolutely SURE what this latest photo is actually showing in order to understand what’s up with the 11:45 AM timestamp.
ALL of these most recent photos from Joy ( THANK YOU, Joy!… and Marti! ) are very important in one way or another…. so it is equally important to know, for sure and certain, what the story is with the Olympus timestamp(s).
More later.
PS: Here is just one example of how IMPORTANT some of these photos are…
In a few of these photos… we finally see ( for sure and certain ) that the Yellow/White BLM N14HX chopper DID, in fact, have a ‘Bambi Bucket’ on Saturday. For the first time… we can see it sitting there all laid out and ‘ready to be used’ on the Helipad at the Yarnell Hill Fire Station.
Only problem is… it seems as if it never WAS used. Not until after the fire had already ‘escaped’ from that simple area where it was officially just ‘mop up’ work for over FIVE hours on Saturday.
Shumate’s testimony has been inconsistent on this.
He seemed to suggest ( in his own testimony and Unit Logs ) that N14HX didn’t really HAVE a ‘Bambi Bucket’ that day… and THAT is why he hadn’t been using any bucket-drops during that critical Saturday morning/afternoon timeframe.
Well… we can see now that N14HX most certainly DID have a ‘Bambi Bucket’ with it that day… and it looks like it was all laid out properly to be hooked up and put into service at a moment’s notice that day.
The only mystery left now is why that did NOT happen on Saturday, and the fire was allowed to ‘escape’ at all.
To Joy~
You said something downstream about apologizing and that the camera time-stamps were actually accurate. It sounded like you were talking about this Olympus.
Is that what you were telling me?
It’s appearing here that that can’t be the case. This DC-10 drop definitely can’t be at the time the camera’s timestamp shows it at.
The BIG question is, how far off was the camera?
Marti… see other (new) posts above.
I am seriously just thinking DST here ( Daylight Savings Time ).
Add exactly 60 minutes to both ‘retardant drop’ photo and ‘Blue Ridge Buggy’ photo and they both fit all the other evidence.
Another way to “triangulate” this camera would be via the photos of the BLM helicopter lifting off, on 6/20, to take the next bunch of helitack crew up to the fire.
The shadows do look quite a bit later than the timestamps would indicate.
Joy’s photos that she sent me on November 13.
The first folder is “2014-11-13 Canon Powershot”
These are from a Canon Powershot A495, photo 1830, captured 6/28 at 5:45 PM, and photos 1831-1852, captured 6/29, from 6 PM to 8:15 PM.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l2m3m11h6a1l14a/AAAM0YxXU2mR31DQvm9GRo36a?dl=0
They’re still loading. Tell me if this links doesn’t work.
Next folder:
2014-11-13 Olympus
These are from an Olympus FE-5010 X-915, photos P6290612 thru P7030685, taken 6/29 at 1 PM thru 7/3 at 11:17 AM.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sdewpeomabowpk6/AACZ0gUt3eCVq59GcKLgb1Qta?dl=0
Oops. I just discovered a problema.
The photos are showing today date/time in the date.
That’s not good at all, and I’m not sure at the moment how to change it. So don’t download these. I’m going to have to fix this.
So I guess what I’m going to have to do is MOVE the originals to Dropbox, instead of exporting them.
So I’m going to wipe these folders and put the originals in them.
So the folders are repopulating with the original photos.
So they have all the correct metadata.
Back to making my lunch.
The Olympus folder has 74 photos, from 6/29 to 7/3, so it’s a pretty big collection.
All times are rounded to the next closest minute. Cuz……typing.
The first 34 images were taken between 1:03 PM and 8:30 PM on 6/29.
The first four (P6290612.JPG thru P6290615.JPG) show the Yarnell Fire Department and what looks like the prepping of the yellow BLM N14 helicopter.
The Tonto NF Engine 58 is there, along with four “Wild Land Fire Crew” buggies and what looks like a chase truck and a jeep.
There’s also an impressive solar array on a building in the first photo.
The next ten images, P6290616.JPG thru P6290625.JPG, taken from 2:56 to 3:12 PM, are of the smoke as seen from that parking lot (the one with the great view).
The next three shots, taken from 3:30 to 3:44 show the helicopter lifting, while leaving its Bambi Bucket on the tarmack, and flying, and then the crew of Tonto NF Enging 58 (I would assume) filling the Engine with water from a hydrant.
BTW, the woman firefighter in this photo is Emily Chevalier, Resource Order E-9.5. We’ve seen her in a number of images and maybe even interviews, I think. I tried to find her on the google machine, but apparently she keeps a low online profile. I just totally love her name.
The next four images, showing more smoke on the mountain, are taken from 4:25 to 4:27.
The next image, P6290633, taken at 4:28 PM, is of the BLM Helitack Chase Truck, logic would dictate.
The next nine images are from 5:31 PM to 5:57, showing the fire getting brighter and brighter as the sky gets darker and darker. The first image shows a SEAT drop. The last shows a plane that I don’t, at the moment, know what it is.
The next three images are my favorites. They’re from 8:20 PM to 8:30 PM. As the exposure gets darker and darker, the shutter gets relatively slower and slower, so these are wonderful abstracts.
By the next image, P6300646.JPG, it’s 8:22 in the morning of June 30. From this image thru P6300669.JPG, taken at 1:13 PM, there are 24 images taken on June 30.
The first eight images are, again, taken near the Yarnell Fire Department. The first is of the smoke, the second (taken at 8:23 AM) is of the 2 Blue Ridge Buggies, one of their chase trucks, and two other random vehicles.
Then another smoke shot, and then an 8:27 AM photo, P6300649, of a bunch of firefighters sitting down near seven gray and white trucks. There’s also an open Crew Buggy door, right in front of them, that I really really need someone to talk me down and tell me why it isn’t, of a Granite Mountain Buggy. Because right now I think it is. Hm…… ………..
The next six, from 8:20 to 10:09 are more smoke shots.
The next five, from 10:12 AM to 10:16 AM, are of a DC 10. There’s no slurry dropping from it.
Then there’s a 180 mm focal length zoom shot (P630065) of something that I don’t know what it is, at 10:43 AM.
Actually, now I think it’s of the T-1 Helitanker that’s in the next two shots.
Then we see another shot (P6300662), at 11:41, of a DC-10.
Two more smoke shots at 11:42 AM.
And then we see P6300665, at 11:46, a DC-10 dropping retardant, with whoever’s flying Air Attack at that time (probably Bravo 3) flying above it.
Next, there’s a 12:14 PM smoke shot from I don’t know where.
Then a 1:12 PM DC-10 shot. Then two 1:12 PM ish photos of smoke and the DC-10 flying away from the drop.
So, that’s the end of the 6/30 Olympus photos.
The next sixteen photos are from July 3. The first is from 11:14 AM, and the last is from 11;16 AM, so this is a quick series.
It’s basically a series of shots, from somewhere up pretty high, of Main Street Yarnell, the streets being pretty much empty. Good images of what Yarnell essentially looked like on the Third of July.
OK, that’s what these photos are of, generally speaking.
My daughter just called me to tell me my mom just sorta kinda fell but she’s ok, and that people were trying to get hold of me, but nobody has called me on either of my phones all day–I just checked.
And tomorrow’s my birthday and I have to pick a restaurant…..so there’s that.
Whew. I’m glad that posted OK, because I forgot to copy it before I posted it.
Next folder:
2014-11-13 iPod Touch
These were taken with an iPod Touch, photos IMG_0021.JPG thru IMG_1830.JPG, taken 6/29 at 8:14 PM thru 6/30 at 3:49 PM.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/udgzkgx65b3h9b4/AABhzlPUvE670erL6xttE3Qna?dl=0
So I put a little text file in that folder with timestamps for each photo and GPS coordinates for the ones that had them.
It’s kind of a PITA because I’m having to them one by one in Lightroom, and the timestamp I have to use to copy is not ahem the normal version.
If anybody can batch read this info and copy/paste it to a text file that would be awesome. Doing it this way is seriously time-consuming.
I even tried to list them in Finder, but Finder isn’t showing the accurate timestamps, for some odd reason.
That’s why I started with this folder. It has the least number of photos in it.
The first four photos in this folder are geocoded. The geocoding leads to a spot on 89 just southwest of where Shrine Road intersects it.
They were taken between 8:14 and 8:16 Saturday night. They’re looking toward the fire burning on the mountain.
The next image is a vertical of the same view, taken at 8:18. It looks like the photographer may have used Microsoft Windows Photo Gallery to turn it upright. It has no geocoding.
All the rest of the photos in this folder are not geocoded.
There is a file name gap between the fourth photo and the fifth photo. The fourth photo is 0023 and the next one is 0043.
The next photo, 0044, was taken on June 30 at 10:24 AM. There are lots of gaps in the sequencing. which totally makes sense becuz people normally take lots more digital images than they “share.”
It’s really too bad the geocoding is turned off in the rest of the images. It would really be nice to be able to map them.
Can somebody give me the coordinates for the Yarnell Fire Station? I thought I had it posted on Google Earth, but I can’t find it.
OK. Figured it out. 0045 thru 0061 are taken from just south of the Yarnell Fire Department.
0044 is taken at 10:24 AM and 0061 is taken at 3:40 PM. So they show the impressive growth of the smoke from, basically, the same location.
Both links work fine from here…. even with full clearance of all browser cookies.
Important photos. A big ‘Thank You’ to BOTH Joy and Marti.
More later…
Third folder works AOK as well. Whatever you are doing… it is working FINE.
YAY, thank you. It’s the posting NOT in Folder named Public, but in just a regular folder, and using the “share” button and copy/pasting the link it puts up and not the address in the address bar.
PS I “publish” these big batches right out of Lightroom.
OK. I’m going to make myself an egg salad/avocado sandwich and dig into these photos some more.
I am sitting on the edge of my seat with so many behind the scene stuff brewing but write this date down and this past few days…I think this is going to be a Happy Holiday Season…I cannot begin to share due to respect of privacy but without a doubt I know the time is nearing for that In God’s Time It Will Be Revealed…shew…wow…I have to really soak in the past few days…thank you does not go to me but Above and to all that are coming forward. THANK YOU to them.
So, back to the Canon Powershot Photos. Sorry this isn’t lined up better but, oh well.
The first image, 1830 is from 6/28 at 5:45 PM. Shows the smoke blowing. I don’t know where it was taken from, so I don’t know which way the smoke is blowing.
The rest of the photos, taken on the evening of 6/29 are taken from the same place, generally, I think. The first was taken at 6 PM. The last was taken at 8:15 PM. There are 20 images in this totally stunning sequence of images showing the the fire growing powerfully and rapidly as the sun sets.
I’m thinking they are shot from the north to the south, because the way the light is, it looks like sun is setting to the right.
I need to do an experiment here, and I need y’all’s help.
We seem to be having trouble linking to/getting to folders and files via Dropbox. And I need to post Joy’s most recent photos to something that will successfully link here.
Earlier in November I posted this in Chapter IX. I was told the link worked. So I’m wondering if it still does. Can somebody who isn’t “cookie-d in to Dropbox test this link?
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 10, 2014 AT 4:04 PM
Re Joy’s Photos she emailed me from June 30, July 2, and July 4.
Someone commented to me way downstream that my Dropbox link to them didn’t work.
I moved them so I should be able to successfully share the link.
Here it is. Hope it works this time!
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eelrgcqxn2h8wgc/AABPwzkLwKAZCTHwu3PcOo_na?dl=0
Marti,
It worked fine for me. Thanks.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY YOU DID
Fabulous. Thanks!
I posted that link a certain way. I don’t know if that matters in this situation.
Instead of copying the address in the browser address bar (which I think we’ve been doing?), I did the “share link” path.
link worked for me too Marti. Elizabeth, I read this comment to Marti this morning and as I shared to you after reading the complete comments on this chapter and last it seems you have some flair to some of your comments that can get “reactions” and I know Marti as we all do have our moments of “enough” so let’s just move on forward putting the information out there; simple as that…no more need to clarify you are not IHC…we all know your career position. ABC news just emailed me for contact information…let you know what comes of it or what it pertains to….
Please refrain from personal attacks. Stay focused on what is known and what is not known.
Thank you, John
Marti- will you be adding the past 2 weeks of photos to that link here or another one?
Also let me publicly state as I privately apologized to Marti that the photo time stamp is correct after detail account of both people.
probably keep it separate.
and title the dropbox to what it pertains to like the link above belongs to camera owned by Kathy and Connie and I emailed you all their contact and full name. Than the next photos was the one who does not want to be public and when someone wanted to reach out to her I learned she is not sure as to why because she did not want to be involved just her photos to be shared in hopes to reach clarity. You all have to remember small town politics and crony ways so I understand her professional position there. Then there is Leonard Hunters. And more to come…especially the one that lives in front of the Helms/BSR
Also got the Photos
Connie Callen shared photos to Kathy Hunter Glover and that is how Kathy gave me two accounts and cameras of photos. Kathy Hunter Glover who has a massive file of the fire from Friday to Sunday is how I was told and on her laptop in a very unorganized fashion were taken by her camera as well as Connie’s camera. Connie Callen’s photo that Kathy Hunter Glover had and shared were taken at 18409 s john fry in peeples valley. The blue ridge guy and 2 smoke stacks were taking at Chaz place 23074 s lakewood dr and the others were near helms at 17613 w westward. I hope this helps you. Any pics with pine trees were peeples valley Connies place. The one with blue home is lakewood and the other home is near helms on westward. one was a cell and one was a camera for kathy hunter glover and Connie.
Kathy stayed in wickenburg for the week and connie stayed in yarnell so I believe your times.
Again let’s have good campfire talks here no added fuel or fire needed…thanks again for putting the photos for others to view Marti
Great, thanks.
I’ll be posting photos in order of how tardy they are!
I will put them in distinct folders, as distinct as I can make them.
What I have on my computer at this time (and you may have sent me more stuff) is what you sent me November 13.
There are three cameras:
A Canon Powershot A495, photo 1830, captured 6/28 at 5:45 PM, and photos 1831-1852, captured 6/29, from 6 PM to 8:15 PM.
An Olympus FE-5010 X-915, photos P6290612 thru P7030685, taken 6/29 at 1 PM thru 7/3 at 11:17 AM.
An iPod Touch, photos IMG_0021.JPG thru IMG_1830.JPG, taken 6/29 at 8:14 PM thru 5/30 at 3:49 PM.
I think I’m going to post them in separate folders based on which cameras they are using. Does that make sense/work for you, Joy?
All typos brought to you by my 15-year-old cat who refuses to get off my lap and is sharpening her claws on my leg.
In the interest of time, I’m going to first post all these images to my dropbox, and the links here, and then go back and put the basic info into a text file, which I’ll include in the folder for those who can’t see the metadata.
And whatever conversations are posted here, I”ll add to that text file.
That will get the photos up there, and also be flexible in terms of photo information.
Typo alert:
the iPod Touch photos were taken thru 6/30 at 3:49 PM. and not thru 5/30 at 3:49 PM.
Remember, that typo is my kitty’s fault.
I fixed that when I posted the link up above.
bring that cat over…ohh…rubbing your belly…I love it.
meow.
Yeah, that works!
Chuckles.
I’m such a total cat person.
Joy, can you tell me, after looking at the folders on Dropbox, which collections were taken by whom?
I’m still a little confoosed.
this is the one who did not want to be named but I felt people should see what they had:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sdewpeomabowpk6/AACZ0gUt3eCVq59GcKLgb1Qta?dl=0
and
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/udgzkgx65b3h9b4/AABhzlPUvE670erL6xttE3Qna?dl=0
—————————————————-
this is Connie Callen’s:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eelrgcqxn2h8wgc/AABPwzkLwKAZCTHwu3PcOo_na?dl=0
so just need Kathy and Leonard’s
Do folks on here know whose engine was Engine 59 on the Yarnell Hill Fire and who was on that engine that day?
Oh, I just noticed that there was a post below seeming to maybe state whose engine E-59 *might* be (I quote the relevant language inside quotations marks below), but we still do not know WHO was on that engine at that point. It seems to me that that would be useful to know.
This is what was stated down below on this thread by someone:
“It is Central Yavapai Fire Distrct / Sun City West Engine ‘CEY P59′. …This is the same Engine seen parked in the Ranch House Restuarant parking lot in Tom Story’s photograph 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1690.jpg The actual license plate of Engine CEY P59 can be seen in this photo and it is G-682DV. That matches the license plate number and Unit ID number ( CEY P59 ) appearing in Resource Order E-5 on page 95 of the public “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document, which is as follows… Request Number: E-5 Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2043 PNT From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 800-309-7081 To: AZ-ADC Qyt: 1 Resource Requested: Engine, Type 6 Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0800 PNT Deliver To: YARNELL HILL From Unit: AZ-ADC To Unit: AZ-ADC Assigned Date/Time: 06/29/13 2328 PNT Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-A1S Resource Assigned: ENGINE – T6 – AZ-CEY – LIC# G682DV – SHOP# V548 – P-59 M/D Ind: M… NOTE: The assigned Disptach Unit ID of ‘AZ-A1S’ indicates that even though it says ‘Central Yavapai Fire District’ in the white banding on the side of the engine, it means that this Engine was one of the ones that was dispatched out of the ‘Sun City West’ Fire Department. The LOGOS that can be easily seen on both the driver and passenger side doors match the ‘Sun City West’ Fire Department logo.”
As shown above… the resource order number is E-5.
Look in the “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document that was part of the public SAIT release. Resource orders E-5.1 through E-5.4 give you the crew names.
There is a link to InvestigativeMEDIA’s online Dropbox containing this SAIT release and the “J- Resource Orders” document right on the side of this web page.
Given the apparent current hassle with posting links to things in Dropbox, I’m thinking of firing up my ages-old-and-unused Picasa to post Joy’s photos. This is really a drag.
Or can you think of a work-around?
Marti… the problem I was describing below with Drop box only applies ( I think ) to when you are trying to use DIRECT links to the ‘originals’ sitting in Dropbox. Still works fine if you have visited the Dropbox at least once normally and you haven’t cleared your browser cookies since then. Also… the normal ‘front door’ access to Drop box still seems OK as well.
That being said… what about FLICKR?
Isn’t that still the easiest way to just share photos online? What does Picasa have that FLICKR doesn’t?
Thanks. I don’t want to contaminate my Flickr stream with somebody else’s photos.
I hardly use Picasa, so that’s no big deal. I used to use it to post stuff when I was in a similar “citizens investigation” of Deepwater Horizon.
But, hopefully, the experiment I posted above will help tell me what I need to know.
Whatever you are (now) doing up above is working fine.
I have tested all links… and manually cleared ALL browser cookies before performing each test.
Everything works fine.
And I just replied to that comment of WTKTT’s down below:
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 24, 2014 AT 8:28 AM
I don’t see a Sun City West Logo on that Engine at all. It’s a Central Yavapai Fire District Logo. (I’m looking at the VERY CLEAR photo, not the video). The Central Yavapai Logo has a C on the left, two people in the middle in front of a combined YF, and a D on the right. (Or at least it did in 2013–looks like they’ve changed it slightly since then–they took out the two people).
Brush Truck 103 IS the Sun City West Engine.. It’s the ONLY Sun City West Engine.
Am I missing something?
And PS.
Now that I’m looking at all the photos of the Sun City West Brush Truck 103, including the ones at the Youth Camp, including the one that includes the Blue Ridge UTV with somebody walking away from it with a light-colored helmet and a “bib-harness.”
Way back when, I white-balanced that photo.
That helmet is not white. It’s yellow. And Tony Sciacca doesn’t have one of those “bib harnesses” on in the video that captures him.
And, OMGosh, now I know what Paul Musser’s helmet looks like.
It’s got the Incident Management Team Logo on it.
That confirms that the guy with the Incident Management Team Logo on his helmet in the Tom Story photos is, in fact, Paul Musser.
I would almost bet money–but not the bank–that in the Tom Story photos that show two guys in white helmets (one of which has the IMT logo), along with Rance Marquez and Dan Philbin) gathered around the front of the IMT truck–the other guy in the white helmet is Tony Sciacca.
And this is making me think, more and more, that the IMT truck is what Paul Musser was driving. Which has its own set of problems, but…..
TBH
This shows how much I’ve spent the last two weeks looking at other things and not the videos…….
Marti… on an airplane using a smartphone at the moment so it’s hard to cut/paste but here are some replies to multiple comments above.
RE: Engine CEY P59
You are right about the logo on the door. That isn’t Sun City FD logo. It is still definitely the same Engine CEY P59 seen in both video and Tom Story photos, though. Resource order E-5 with resource suborders E-5.1 thru E-5.4 showing cre members.
RE: Yellow Helmet
Again… you are right. Meant to post about this the other day. Did another round of intense ‘color balancing’ myself on a blowup of that photo and there’s really no way that is a WHITE Helmet. Has to be YELLOW.
I think that puts it back to being Tyson Esquibel as the one who Bob Brandon was mistaking to be an ‘Incident Commander’ and the one who was ordering Brandon to move the vehicles and basically abandon his men out west in Harper Canyon. Esquibel was definitely wearing similar chest harness as seen in the photo.
I did some screensnaps from some of the videos.
On M2U00264, at +1:20 there’s a guy with a yellow helmet and a “bib harness” standing next to Brush Truck 103. Looks as close as I’ve seen in the videos to the guy with the yellow helmet in the Youth Camp photo.
But I have no idea who this firefighter is. Just because he’s standing in the middle of the Youth Camp photo with the Blue Ridge UTV, doesn’t mean he is “the Commander” mentioned by Brandan.
And, yeah, I still think the “Commander” would have been, for these guys, Tyson Esquibel. This thing really needs to be a part of the “re-investigation” I’m suspecting is the reason ADOSH has postponed it’s AZFire hearing all the way until July of next year.
And speaking of “safety issues.” A BUNCH of those guys walking out don’t even have helmets on, just baseball caps.
If you recall the past conversations about this ‘mystery IC’ who Bob Brandon says TOLD him to move the vehicles… what we still do NOT know is if Tyson Esquibel was simply wearing that ‘black ball cap’ all day ( as seen in the Tom Story photos )… or whether he, himself, had a YELLOW Helmet on when he was out in the Youth Camp area.
He could have easily taken his Helmet off on the evacuation drive and put the ‘black ball cap’ on before reaching the RHR… but that is pure conjecture.
It really does look like at least all FOUR FFs had those same kind of harnesses on. There is also always that ‘mystery FF’ in the Story photos who has the harness, a yellow helmet, AND he has that ‘neck protector’ fully visible. Problem is… we only ever see his BACK in the Story photos.
I think in order to really solve the ‘Mystery IC’ problem… we need a little more detail from Bob Brandon himself.
Gee… I wonder where we might find that.
Oh… I don’t know… maybe in the FULL DEPOSITIONS he and the other Peeples Valley FFs say they gave to ‘investgators’ just 48 hours after they incident… but now seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth?
Yeppers!!!
You wrote:
“Esquibel was definitely wearing similar chest harness as seen in the photo.”
Where have you definitively seen that?
Marti Reed says
Reply to Marti post on November 24, 2014 at 10:47 am
You wrote:
“Esquibel was definitely wearing similar chest harness as seen in the photo.”
>> Marti asked…
>>
>> Where have you definitively seen that?
In the photo taken out at the Youth Camp… with MAX enhancement. Definitely looks like that black ‘criss-cross’ chest thing on his front… as Esquibel ( and others ) are seen clearly wearing in the Tom Story RHR photos.
Which Tom Story photos?
Sorry… should have said so above…
Tom Story Folder TWO…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1677 ( Esquibel in black ball cap to left of red helmet FF )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1678 ( Esquibel out of frame but FF in center with neck protector )
This is an interesting excerpt below in CAPS from “The Challenger Launch Decision – Risky Technology, Culture, and Deviance at NASA” by Diane Vaughan that investigated the January 28, 1986 Challenger Space Shuttle disaster. This book is where she coined the phrase ‘Normalization of Deviance.” I allege that the normalization of deviance occurred and led up to the fatalities on 30 June 2013 on the YH Fire.
The interesting excerpt dealing with decisions that are “made public.” is on page 248.. Vaughan stated that “AN ADDITIONAL FACTOR THAT BINDS PEOPLE TO THEIR ACTIONS IS ‘GOING PUBLIC.’ WHEN A PERSON PARTICIPATES IN AND IS IDENTIFIED PUBLICLY WITH A DECISION, THAT PERSON WILL RESOLVE INCONSISTENCIES TO PRODUCE ATTITUDES CONSISTENT WITH THAT CHOICE..”
This ‘going public” with their actions is very similar to what the GMHS did on 30 June when they “made public” over the COMMAND and/or TAC channels of their commitment to “the black” and “on a ridge in the black” talking with OPS Musser and “committed to the black … send BRHS …” when asked if they could support SPGS Cordes in Yarnell. They the made decisions ‘public’ commitments when they ‘publicly’ broadcast these several times over radio channels that could, should, would have been heard by anyone scanning and intently listening to those channels.
Human Factors psychologist Dr. Ted Putnam has stated this very same “made public” concept in slightly different words, however, with the same intent and conclusions.
So, once again,the question(s) arise: IF they were so “publicly” committed to ‘the black,’ then what changed their mind(s) to leave a perfectly good SZ at the worst possible time? Was it a tried and trued (up until 30 June 2013) established pattern of Bad Decisions with Prior Good Outcomes; or was it what appeared to be Groupthink if/when no one said anything to the contrary and/or questioned the ‘public’ decision to leave the black,; or the ‘hold the line’ and/or save structures ‘at all costs’ attitude,; or the “no WFF is satisfied sitting in the black doing nothing as the fire progresses below them …’ attitude?
This might be off-topic a bit… but I think it supports this particular thread.
When the other shuttle ( Columbia ) disintegrated over Texas… it became quickly clear that there WERE things NASA could have done to try to prevent the tragedy.
There had ALWAYS been ‘contigency plans’ in place at NASA for the exact situation that the Columbia crew found itself in. Those well-thought-out contigency plans included scenarious where if there were ANY concerns about the integrity of the heat tiles on the underside of one of the wings… or anywhere around the landing gear doors… the approved plan was to cancel the normal ‘zig-zag’ reentry flight path and use a more ‘circular glide’ path.
The normal way the Shuttles were always reentering was to use a series of left/right ‘banks’ or ‘turns’ all the way down in order to make sure the HEAT was being EVENLY spread on the bottoms of the wings and that it wasn’t being concentrated in any particular spot for too long a time.
If there were any concerns about the underside of either wing… they could easily just cut back on the ‘left/right’ alternation and use a more ‘long circle’ glide path to try and keep most of the HEAT completely AWAY from the bottom of the wing in question.
This, of course, meant altering the landing location.
So only after the tragedy did we find out that there WERE serious concerns about the integrity of the leading edge of the left wing and, perhaps, the underside of it as well… and that the scenario met every criteria for trying the ‘alternate glide paths’ that were ALREADY programmed into the Shuttle’s reentry computer.
The engineers wanted to ‘go public’ with this information so that everyone would understand what was going to be attempted and why the Shuttle would NOT be able to return to Cape Canaveral.
NASA Management decided to ‘gag’ the engineers. They forbade them to make any statements about these existing ‘contigency plans’ to ANY media person… even though the media was pressing them about whether there even WERE any such ‘contingency plans’.
Their reasoning? “If we go PUBLIC with this… there will be hell to pay if something bad happens”.
WTKTT,
Your post was actually quite ON-TOPIC so good input.
I want to clarify on the GMHS “public” declaration to leave their perfectly good black and travel into the unburned at the worst possible time.
This discussion and declaration was obviously talked about on the GMHS Crew Net channel so it was NOT public knowledge to the other WFF on the YH Fire, only to the GMHS that day..The GMHS “options” discussion and broadcast would have certainly been ‘public’ to each and every one of the GMHS on the YH Fire that fateful day whether they had a radio of not. The GMHS had more radios than most IHC’s, a total of 14-15. Most IHC’s carry only 8 or so handheld radios on the firelines. So the shear number of radios on the GMHS suggest that each of them had the opportunity to at least HEAR and/or discuss amongst themselves what was being discussed by the GMHS supervisors (including DIV A on the GMHS Crew Net) concerning their ‘options’ that day. That is, the option of staying in the good black or leaving the black and traveling downhill to the BSR through the unburned and through potentially deadly chutes, chimneys, and bowls.
So, I allege that the “decisions that were made public” principle clearly applies to the decisions and actions pf the GMHS on 30 June 2013.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY YOU DID
Calvin, there was a pumpkin set up at the Boulder Springs Ranch. Contrary to most of the other properties in the Glen Ilah area, the BSR had stellar defensible space.
Therefore, my sources are saying that the BSR was viewed as a good place to stage or restage or have a resource (like an engine), and then move out from there, as needed. I am being told that 90% of the structures that are lost due to a wildland fire are lost AFTER the fire goes through the subdivision, which means that, in theory, having resources on hand and staged close-by means that a lot of spot fires or whatever can be hopefully picked up (and homes thereby saved) AFTER the fire moves through.
So
Are you saying that would be a good place to stage an IHC, also. Sorry, I have to ask?
I, personally, do not have a darn clue, because I am not on an IHC, nor have I been on an IHC in the past five or ten years, nor am I Marty Rose or Curtis Heaton or any such thing. But presumably the answer is “yes,” right?
Sources????????
Subdivisions Burn to ground if a fire goes thru???????????
Professionally speaking NO COMMENT??????????????
Bob, re-read your post. It doesn’t make sense. Specifically, what is your question, or what are you trying to say with your prior post?
hahahahahahahaha????????????
What in the world are you talking about?
Marti as you advised—— Not wasting precious energy
I’m drinking rum and orange juice and listening to weird music right now.
That’s my excuse.
Marti- you ever make rum creamsicle drinks —so many ways to make it but its so delicious— Turn up the heat on your cocktail and set it on fire…it makes the drink’s taste richer and deeper and to me a flaming drink is very romantic…put on some Barry White…and let’s get it on with no more horse shit on EN and leave it in last chapter. If she comments let us all respectfully answer or don’t…but enough with the under tones or tones and that is not meant to you Marti just the drinking part…so drink on Marti…have a good night.
Thank you, Joy.
Marti, I honestly have no idea what I could have possibly done to you personally to merit the way that you personally snark at or attack or snipe at me. I have tried to be kind to you both on-line and off-line, and I have said and done specific things for you. If I have done something to you personally that I am somehow not seeing to justify the way that you – personally – snipe at and make needlessly nasty comments toward me, could you please shoot me an e-mail (you have my e-mail address, and I have yours) and explain to me what I have done to you, personally, that merits the way that you are treating me? I’d be happy to apologize if I have somehow done something to you personally that merits your sniping and needlessly nasty comments toward me.
I completely understand why Fred Schoeffler and all of his many alter-egos are lashing out at me, but I honestly fail to understand what I have done to you, personally, Marti. I honestly thought I have done things for you, personally, that strike me as kind and supportive, which is the exact opposite of the way that you are now treating me.
LOL, loved that!!!
And I AM getting your photos done today.
No more BS.
Marti be ware—The Nice side of the BLACK WIDOW before she strikes. Hope you enjoyed the Rum I like mine with coke……..
I don’t like cola any more. I guess I OD-d on it somewhere back when.
I’ve been drinking rum and orange juice practically every evening for years. It keeps me from getting colds, I think……
Of course, now it’s eggnog season………
Elizabeth,
I don’t know that the percentage is correct but it is true that a high percentage of structures burn after the flaming front has passed – either from embers in hidden spaces or from low intensity surface fire. Typically in a rapidly expanding incident there aren’t enough resources on scene to provide protection for all structures, so the engines follow the flaming front (candle moth syndrome) and forget about the structures that the front has already burned through.
However, based on observations from SPG (Willis) I believe this event had both. Structures that were lost from direct flame impingement (little if any defensible space) and structures lost due to ember showers and/or low intensity surface fire.
Over the past few years there has been a push to stage equipment in a safe area, let the flaming front pass through then move in and take action. Honestly, I like the concept but have yet to see it exercised.
As far as I have seen, I have no idea if anything was staged at the Boulder Springs Ranch at the time the fire bore down on it, at the same time it was bearing up onto Granite Mountain and, also overwhelming Glen Ilah.
Cordes mentioned something about “an engine.”
Tyson said he would send in one of his. That never got there, as far as the documentation goes. That idea was about “catching” Granite Mountain, not saving structures in Glen Ilah.
IIRC, the owners said there were no engines there at that time.
And, actually, I don’t see how there was any point in it, to be honest.
The quickest, easiest access to Glen Ilah was not from the Boulder Springs Ranch, but from the road leading into Glen Ilah from Highway 89, right across from the Ranch House Restaurant.
And, remember, we are discussing a seriously UNDER-RESOURCED and UNDER-STRATEGIZED fire, in which EVERYBODY was scrambling just to try to keep up with about five miles behind the fire.
Reply to Marti Reed post November 23, 2014 at 10:09 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> The quickest, easiest access to Glen Ilah was not from the
>> Boulder Springs Ranch, but from the road leading into Glen
>>> Ilah from Highway 89, right across from the Ranch
>> House Restaurant.
Exactly.
Matter of fact… if Esquibel had actually answered Cordes’ query about whether they still had TWO ‘Engines’ over at the Boulder Springs Ranch in the ‘affirmative’ rather than the ‘negative’… I think the next thing we would have heard Cordes say would have been…
“Then tell one of them to get the hell out of there right now… then tell the other one to ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain to arrive there… and then make sure EVERYONE gets OUT of there safely”.
There is NO evidence that Cordes had ANY plans to ‘stage’ anything at the BSR after all the trigger points were being hit. The ONLY designated ‘Safety Zone’ for ALL resources at that point was the Ranch House Restaurant.
What is really astounding about all of this is that there is NO MENTION of ANY of this in Gary Cordes’ own interview with ADOSH.
We can now HEAR him making this PLAN with Esquibel to make sure Granite Mountain ‘got out safely’ ( and even telling Esquibel it was a GOOD plan )… and Esquibel himself talks about most of it in HIS ADOSH interview…
…but Gary Cordes chose to say NOTHING about ANY of this to ADOSH investigators.
You have to wonder… Why not?
A couple of points—
Housing developments and structures…
A new housing development can be treated different than an older one on two distinct levels defensible space and better access. Without good regulations older structures are more prone to fire with more fuel around the structures. The strategy being discussed needs a full pre fire evaluation to work with any success. The more open the housing area the better chance of saving several structures how ever you are still dependent on the number of Engines available.
The BSR Pre planning Put a Pumpkin full of water at the site with a pump. I believe that was for backup if the fire got there for the resident or engines to save round trip times. Not for any staging area but as a backup resource. The BSR did take some fire and heat damage no one has ever said if the pumpkin was used probably not an important enough discussion.
As a staging area I would not have put any Engines in a location like that
to wait out the fire in the middle of a brush field. There were to many structures in Yarnell to protect with not many engines.
Bob.
I’ve read, occasionally, about structure fire-fighting.
One of the BIG DEALS I’ve read is that, in fact, older buildings tend to be easier and safer to fight fires in, depending on how they were constructed.
Structure fire-fighters are finding buildings less than about 20 years old WAY harder to save and WAY more dangerous, because of all the crappy, cheap, highly flammable, and TOXIC construction materials.
The stats are pretty scary.
Structure fires are quite different than fires out side of buildings
Eaves, siding, and roofs if no fire proof are the places that need attention from outside fires once inside Wild land Eng. crews can not do much takes structure crews but you are right many more toxins which WFF are not equipped for either.
And, per the BSR security cam images, there were vehicles, including Tyson’s, going in and out all day. I do think the engines working in the Glen Illah area (before most of them moved over to the Youth Camp) were utilizing the pumpkin.
For that purpose, at that time, it WAS a source of water. But it wasn’t any kind of STAGING.
And, I think, AT THAT TIME, it WAS considered a Safety Zone for those vehicles.
But that was long before the time we’re discussing now.
Good Observation———
Reply to ‘Retired with 38’ post on November 23, 2014 at 9:39 pm
>> ‘Retired with 38’ said…
>>
>> Over the past few years there has been a push to stage equipment
>> in a safe area, let the flaming front pass through then move in and
>> take action. Honestly, I like the concept but have yet to see it exercised.
The case that the poster named ‘Elizabeth’ was ( I think ) trying to make above is that on June 30, 2013 ( in Yarnell ) somehow SPGS1 Gary Cordes was, in fact, PLANNING on ‘staging’ resources ( Engines and/or Hotshot crews ) at the place known as the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ and doing just that. Actually LETTING them sit there while the fire burned through the Glen Ilah ‘Subdivision’ so they would be ‘in a good place’ to start putting out spot fires or whatnot.
That is TOTAL NONSENSE.
There is absolutely NO evidence that is what SPGS1 Gary Cordes was planning to do that day.
On the contrary…
There is direct evidence he was trying to make sure that NO ONE was ‘left behind’ or ‘staged’ at this Ranch as all resources were being evacuated to the true designated safety zone… the Ranch House Restaurant.
In the most recent ‘evidence dump’ of Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam videos from the US Forestry Service… video M2U00264 captures a radio exchange between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and his Task Force 2 Leader Trainee Tyson Esquibel where it is obvious Cordes was trying to make SURE ‘Everyone got out’ from the Boulder Springs Ranch. He tells Esquibel specifically to send and Engine there to ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain itself to arrive there… and then to make SURE that ‘Everyone gets out’ ( of there ).
There are also post-fire photographs of the Boulder Springs Ranch complex which prove that it was never the ‘bomb-proof’ safety zone that anyone had thought it was. There were many wooden sheds, structures, and antique wooden wagons in the open spaces of the ‘Safety Zone’ that actually ‘burned to the ground’ that day as the fire wrapped around this ‘Safety Zone’.
The only ‘Safe’ place at the Boulder Springs Ranch was inside the masonry buildings themselves… which is why the owners ( Lee and D.J. Helm ) survived.
If SPGS1 Gary Cordes had actually been PLANNING on ‘staging’ resources there in the open spaces of the Boulder Springs Ranch that day to let them ‘ride out the fire’ there… then I would say that is almost proof that he was so sleep-deprived at that time that he was making insane decisions. Gary Cordes had not slept in at least 24 hours around the time the evacuations were taking place… and if he had not slept during the day on Saturday, before arriving in Yarnell around 11:00 PM on Saturday night… then he could have easily been without sleep for up to 36 to 48 hours prior to the time of the evacuations in Yarnell.
So just to repeat…
There is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that Gary Cordes had any intentions of actually ‘staging’ any resources ( Engines or people ) at the Boulder Springs Ranch that afternoon and was willing to let them ‘ride out the burnover’ there.
The only evidence we DO have is that he was trying to make sure that was NOT going to happen.
WTKTT,
Thanks for that clarification, I obviously didn’t read it that way – but I am new with this.
Forgot to add… SPGS1 Gary Cordes had a number of ‘trigger points’ established that day. In his own ADOSH interview… Gary Cordes told the ADOSH investigators that he was calling his FINAL trigger point the “Aw SHIT’ trigger point. It was up on the ridge over Harper Canyon.
When Cordes’ “Aw SHIT” trigger point was hit… that was when it was time to get EVERYONE ‘the heck out of Dodge’ and at that point the ONLY designated ‘Safety Zone’ was the Ranch House Restaurant back on Highway 89.
This is what Gary Cordes himself told the ADOSH investigators.
To even imagine that he was still thinking about purposely ‘staging’ any resources all the way out at that Boulder Springs Ranch even after his own “Aw SHIT” trigger point was met is simply fantasy… and goes against what the man himself was telling ADOSH.
It’s quite a rodeo—this fire.
And maybe it is–that Gary Cordes was sleep-deprived enough to have thought, when he told Tyson Esquibel to send an engine to Boulder Springs Ranch to fetch Granite Mountain, that Granite Mountain had any chance of getting there before the fire, which was turning so quickly. got to them first.
Actually, I don’t think it was sleep-deprivation. I just think he, along with everybody else, including Granite Mountain, mis-estimated how quickly and powerfully the fire was blowing up and turning.
But at that point, ALL of the crews in the way of the fire were heading to what they considered their Safe Zone–the Ranch House Restaurant.
Which actually, wasn’t all that guaranteed, either.
At the time they were beginning to head in that direction, so was the fire.
And then it turned a little bit more to the southwest, where it blew up the bowl Granite Mountain was in, and hit Glen Ilah instead of Main Street Yarnell.
And still it jumped Highway 89 and burned a swath just north of the Ranch House Cafe.
Actually, the only relatively “safe” place to be on that fire at that time, was back up north in the Peeples Valley area, or with the crews on Model Creek Road, where they were all being mystified at how suddenly the fire quit heading north and just……stood up…..and turned around.
And even with that, mostly everybody abandoned the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot eventually, and headed back up north to the Incident Command Post at Model Creek School, because the smoke and the falling burning ashes were making it anything but a “Safe Zone.”
It was really stunning for me to watch, on the Panebaker Air Study Air-to-Air videos, the column of that fire just turn around over Yarnell, blowing up and flaring over the bowl where Granite Mountain was, and then just collapse right over Yarnell.
There’s a photograph of an engine throwing water on the Ranch House Cafe–to keep it from burning down.
EVERYBODY underestimated this fire.
Including the handful of people who actually took it seriously.
Which is why this fire….
…Is STILL….
……….a Rodeo.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 24, 2014 at 12:40 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> EVERYBODY underestimated this fire.
>> Including the handful of people who actually
>> took it seriously.
But they had HELP ‘underestimating it’ ( the people on the GROUND, anyway ).
General response to comments above…
I think SPGS1 Gary Cordes was TOTALLY ‘clueless’ about what that fire was doing circa 4:00 PM ( and onward ) beyond what he could SEE from Highway 89 and the reports coming in from the Harper Canyon area.
I think that even when he was instructing Tyson Esquibel ( as late as 4:35 PM ) to ‘send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch, tell them to watch for Granite Mountain to ‘arrive’ there… and then make sure EVERYONE ‘gets out’…
…Cordes was completely oblivious to what the fire was doing ‘out there’ in that middle bowl circa 4:30 PM.
I don’t think he had ANY IDEA ( even then ) that the fire was ALREADY about to hit the outskirts of Glen Ilah and the BSR area.
I also think that is because of this MASSIVE failure to communicate between the AIR forces and the GROUND forces that day.
Cordes was focused on Structure Protection and on what was happening in TOWN. He had no idea what it was doing ‘out there’ beyond town… even though the Air support people could see it ALL… but they just weren’t bothering to make sure people on the ground knew everything they did.
TOTAL FAIL that day when it comes to the Air support and the Ground support communicating effectively.
M2U00264
At about the 2:10 mark. After SPGS1 (Willis/Cordes?) asks if there is an engine at the BSR. Frisby says “yeah Im the last one coming out right now (Shrine area), we’ll regroup at the café, and then send somebody in” Then DW or Cordes (SPGS1) says “that sounds like a good plan”
Send someone back in where? and for what purpose?
follow up
It has always been thought that the WFF’s were pulling out to the Ranch House because of safety concerns, but it seems that there were plans to continue some sort of action “send somebody in.”
The wording Frisby uses seems to imply that he will send a singular person in.
What would one WFF do In such circumstances? Transportation for a crew of 19? Can 19 men fit in the back of a crew carrier? Understanding that is not the norm.
Calvin—–I am pretty sure that WTKTT covered that in chapter IX.
It was not Frisby talking but they were discussing sending an Eng. To BSR.
A ST Leader and Cordes but it was to late to move the ENG by the time they re grouped at the Restaurant. Maybe WTKTT can refer you to the location in Ch.IX.
We discussed it as being the First that we herd Cordes asking about moving Eng. to the BSR and making sure that GM got out???????
No, Bob. That is Frisby – he is responding to Gary Cordes. That is not Tyson Esq.. This is one of the many things that folks in this comment thread have gotten wrong regarding YHF videos.
(Calvin, FYI, this is related to the “bump and roll” comment that I made to Marti down below that I think both she and Bob tried yet again to criticize me for. Note, by the way, that Bob, Marti, and various others on this comment thread keep failing to circle back and apologize to me when they finally realize that I am correct about something and that they lashed out at me or criticized me in haste. 🙂 Oh well.)
You are wrong but I am not going to argue with you or apologize.
It was the ST Leader Tyson with the responsibility for the Eng. Crews.
It is NOT Brian Frisby responding to Gary Cordes at that moment.
It is Task Force 2 Trainee Tyson Esquibel.
That is who Cordes was ‘calling’ on the radio… and Esquibel responded ( with the proper call sign as well ).
See the transcript of that part of that video down below.
And the nonsense continues in Chapter X. Anyone who has a clue what they’re talking about, knows that a shot boss has no responsibility (or desire, for that matter) for moving or supervising engines or their crews.
Oh – I retract my prior statement. I was responding to the wrong thing. Sorry! (Remember that Frisby is trying to raise Cordes at the end of the Yarnell Gamble video.)
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 23, 2014 at 3:24 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> Oh – I retract my prior statement. I was responding
>> to the wrong thing. Sorry! (Remember that Frisby
>> is trying to raise Cordes at the end of the Yarnell
>> Gamble video.)
And Frisby succeeds in doing just that even one more time after that previous YARNELL-GAMBLE exchange at the very beginning of Hulburd video M2u00264.
Just listen to the very start of M2U00264 if you want to hear what a clear radio exchange between Brian Frisby and Gary Cordes actually sounds like… so you won’t be confused in the future.
Here is the transcript for the very START of M2U00264.
Just before the video starts… Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby has already called out to SPGS Gary Cordes. As the video actually starts… we hear Cordes responding to that radio call from Frisby.
Frisby then ‘updates’ Cordes and tells him they are ‘pushing his people out’ of the Youth Camp Area.
Cordes didn’t hear Frisby’s full message and asks him to try again. Frisby repeats his message. During this radio exchange, the foreground conversation is KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell greeting OPS2 Paul Musser who has now arrived at the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
OPS2 Paul Musser tells KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell that ‘Everything is going to shit’ and Yowell agrees with him.
Gary Cordes then tells Brian Frisby to get OUT to the Highway and Frisby acknowledges that with a “I copy” back to Cordes.
From Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video clip M2U0064
—————————————————————-
VIDEO M2U00264 STARTS AT 1633.23 ( 4:33.23 PM )
+0:03 ( 1633.26 / 4:33.26 PM )
(SPGS Gary Cordes): Structure, Cordes.
+0:05 ( 1633.28 / 4:33.28 PM )
(BR SUP Brian Frisby): Yea… just lettin’ ya know we’re… ah…
we’re in on those structures on Shrine… we’ll be the last ones
in here… we’re pushin’ your folks out.
+0:13 ( 1633.36 / 4:33.36 PM )
(SPGS Gary Cordes): Real broken.
+0:16 ( 1633.39 / 4:33.29 PM )
(BR SUP Brian Frisby): Uh… How ya copy now?
+0:16 ( 1633.39 / 4:33.29 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Howdy, Paul!
+0:18 ( 1633.41 / 4:33.41 PM )
(Foreground: OPS2 Paul Musser): Goin’ to shit.
+0:18 ( 1633.41 / 4:33.41 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Goin to shit, exactly.
+0:19 ( 1633.42 / 4:33.42 PM )
(SPGS Gary Cordes): Try again.
+0:20 ( 1633.43 / 4:33.43 PM )
(BR SUP Brian Frisby): Yea… just lettin’ ya know we’re in on those
structures on Shrine right now… we’ll be the last ones out and
we’re… ah… we’re pushin’ your folks out. Multiple spots. Pushin’
down on us pretty hard.
+0:25 ( 1633.48 / 4:33.48 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Buck’ Yowell): Where’s THAT (?snow) comin’ from, Aaron?
+0:28 ( 1633.51 / 4:33.51 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): That’s that piece ( pause ) that we
were watchin’ closer to the road. We got fire right there.
+0:31 ( 1633.54 / 4:33.54 PM )
(SPGS Gary Cordes): Copy. Get out to the highway.
+0:33 ( 1633.56 / 4:33.56 PM )
(BR SUP Brian Frisby): I copy.
——————————————————
Whose engine do you suppose it is at 42 seconds in?
It’s one of Tyson Esquibel’s.
It never got there.
Reply to Elizabeth post on
November 23, 2014 at 6:15 pm
>> Elizabeth asked…
>> Whose engine do you suppose it is at 42 seconds in?
There is no ‘suppose’ about it.
It is Central Yavapai Fire Distrct / Sun City West Engine ‘CEY P59’.
It says so right on the license plate on the front which is clearly visible at +36 seconds as it approaches.
SIDENOTE: If you are going to be examining these videos from an investigative standpoint please be sure you have a video player that allows you to view them frame-by-frame. That should cut down on the questions that you should be able to answer for yourself.
Here is the transcript ( with vehicle detail ) from that part of Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00264 video…
——————————————————-
+0:39 ( 1634.02 / 4:34.02 PM )
( Foreground: Air brakes release and a Diesel truck starts moving out ).
+0:41 ( 1634.04 / 4:34.04 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): (Yelling) Charley… go and put yourself out at the head.
+0:42 ( 1634.05 / 4:34.05 PM )
(SPGS Gary Cordes): Copy force two is loaded.
+0:43 ( 1634.06 / 4:34.06 PM )
Central Yavapai Engine CEY P59 is now passing Hulburd’s camera and heading EAST on Shrine Road, out towards Highway 59.
The license plate on the front ( seen clearly at +36 seconds ) says “CEY P59”.
This is the same Engine seen parked in the Ranch House Restuarant parking lot in Tom Story’s photograph 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1690.jpg
The actual license plate of Engine CEY P59 can be seen in this photo and it is G-682DV.
That matches the license plate number and Unit ID number ( CEY P59 ) appearing in Resource Order E-5 on page 95 of the public “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document, which is as follows…
Request Number: E-5
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2043 PNT
From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qyt: 1
Resource Requested: Engine, Type 6
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0800 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: AZ-ADC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/29/13 2328 PNT
Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-A1S
Resource Assigned: ENGINE – T6 – AZ-CEY – LIC# G682DV – SHOP# V548 – P-59
M/D Ind: M
Estimated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 0700 PNT
Esitmated Time of Arrival: 06/30/13 0800 PNT
Travel Mode: AOV ( Agency Owned Vehicle )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( Yarnell Hill Fire )
NOTE: The assigned Disptach Unit ID of ‘AZ-A1S’ indicates that even though it says ‘Central Yavapai Fire District’ in the white banding on the side of the engine, it means that this Engine was one of the ones that was dispatched out of the ‘Sun City West’ Fire Department.
The LOGOS that can be easily seen on both the driver and passenger side doors match the ‘Sun City West’ Fire Department logo.
Video M2U00264 continues…
+0:44 ( 1634.07 / 4:34.07 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): It’s rainin’ now.
+0:52 ( 1634.15 / 4:34.15 PM )
(Foreground: OPS2 Paul Musser): Forty mile an hour winds in Skull Valley right now.
+0:56 ( 1634.19 / 4:34.19 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): I think a lotta rain… a lotta rain up north, too.
+0:56 ( 1634.19 / 4:34.19 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): (Question aimed at Musser) Forty mile per hour winds?
+0:58 ( 1634.21 / 4:34.21 PM )
(Foreground: OPS2 Paul Musser): (Answering Yowell) In Skull Valley, yeah.
——————————————————-
The following is a direct link to the Tom Story photo of the same ‘CEY P59’ Engine seen crossing Hulburd’s camera at +42 seconds into video M2U00264…
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/content_link/w40RnmjqhV3olny3OAtSIqKG1Qx92wJ4X0me93TUa2VXhzki1iTynQrVf6VwKwtF
The actual license plate of Engine ‘CEY P59’ can be seen in this photo and it is G-682DV.
Should have mentioned above… Dropbox has new restrictions on direct photo viewing. In order for the direct link above to work you simply have to have logged into the Dropbox lately and still have the right ‘cookie’ in your browser.
Otherwise…. you might get a ‘403’ error.
There actually is no ‘Log In’ for InvestigativeMEDIA’s public Dropbox(es)… but to direct-view photos you have to have just visited the Dropbox lately and have a ‘cookie’ installed into your Browser.
Re the cookies
Wow. That’s weird.
Thanks for the hedzup.
Dropbox didn’t used to do that… but now it does.
It really doesn’t make any sense that a Dropbox which is ‘totally public’ would require you to have ANY ‘cookies’ in your browser to function correctly… but this version of Dropbox does.
Does this mean that one has to have a Dropbox account and be logged in, to view things that are posted on Dropbox, even in a “Pubic” folder?
I’m really wondering, because I intend to post Joy’s photos there tomorrow.
No. I really think it’s just a software glitch.
The site KNOWS there is no ‘Login page’ required… yet the Javascript that comes down when you are trying to do a DIRECT photo link like the one I have above is still checking for a ‘Login’ cookie and throws up a 403 error if it doesn’t find one.
The software is brain-dead on this.
If it KNOWS there is no Login page required… then it shouldn’t even be checking for the cookie that would contain the login information.
But it does.
If you have simply ever gone to the PUBLIC pages ( even once ) before… you have the cookie… but it has NOTHING in it… because no login is actually required.
It’s a software bug.
I don’t see a Sun City West Logo on that Engine at all. It’s a Central Yavapai Fire District Logo. (I’m looking at the VERY CLEAR photo, not the video). The Central Yavapai Logo has a C on the left, two people in the middle in front of a combined YF, and a D on the right. (Or at least it did in 2013–looks like they’ve changed it slightly since then–they took out the two people).
Brush Truck 103 IS the Sun City West Engine.. It’s the ONLY Sun City West Engine.
Marti… see longer reply above about this.
You are right… I was ‘looking too fast’ at the door.(logo).
It is, in fact, still that same Central Yavapai Fire District Engine with Unit ID ‘CEY P59’ and actual License Plate number G682DV seen in both the Tom Story photos and in the new Hulburd M2U00264 video.
FAIL.
And, by the way, you were NOT CORRECT.
It wasn’t Frisby. It was Esquibel and Cordes having that conversation.
Aaron Hulburd Video MU200264
* At +1:37, SPGS Gary Cordes calls out to Task Force 2 Leader Trainee Tyson Esquibel.
* Esquibel responds right away.
* Cordes wonders if they still have engines (plural) staged at Boulder Springs Ranch.
* Esquibel replies in the ‘negative’ by saying he will go ahead and send one in.
* Cordes tells Esquibel to tell whoever he is sending to make sure and ‘watch’
for Granite Mountain to ‘arrive’ there… then make sure EVERYONE gets out ok.
* Esquibel says he will send that engine in as soon as they regroup at Restaurant.
* Cordes says “Sounds like a good plan”.
——————————————————————–
+1:37 ( 1635.00 / 4:35.00 PM )
(SPGS Gary Cordes): Task force two, Cordes, on our TAC.
+1:40 ( 1635.03 / 4:35.03 PM )
(TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel): Cordes, Task force two.
+1:42 ( 1635.05 / 4:35.05 PM )
(SPGS Gary Cordes): Do we have a coupla engines holdin’ in place at the, uh, Boulder Springs Ranch.
+1:49 ( 1635.12 / 4:35.12 PM )
(TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel): I’ll send one that way.
Uh… we’re gettin’ spots up here… but I’ll run one over.
+1:55 ( 1635.18 / 4:35.18 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Have him involved with goin’ to get… um… Granite Mountain.
Watch for him and make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out.
+1:56
( Foreground: More VERY HEAVY wind noise in camera microphone now )
+2:06 ( 1635.29 / 4:35.29 PM )
(TLFD2(t) Tyson Esquibel): Yea… I’m the last one comin’ out right now.
Uh… we’ll regroup at the… uh… cafe and then send somebody in.
+2:12 ( 1635.35 / 4:35.35 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Sounds like a good plan.
————————————————————————
19 seconds later ( in this same video ) a vary loud HUM is
heard coming over the radio which immediately turns into
heavy static with some voices heard in the background.
Both Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell then clearly say
they are pretty sure it was either Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed speaking.
———————————————————————
+2:31 ( 1635.54 / 4:35.54 PM )
(Very loud HUM, then loud static with people speaking under the static ).
+2:36 ( 1635.59 / 4:35.59 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): That’s gotta be… Eric or Jesse.
+2:37 ( 1636.00 / 4:36.00 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): That’s gotta be them, yea.
+2:41 ( 1636.04 / 4:36.04 PM )
(Foreground: More COUGHING)
——————————————————————–
We are now only 3 minutes ( 180 seconds ) away from Jesse Steed’s
first MAYDAY call on the Air-To-Ground channel.
This HUM and STATIC could be the transmission from either Marsh or
Steed that many people have testified to hearing PRIOR to the first
MAYDAY call on Air-To-Ground at 1639.
A few seconds after Hulburd and Yowell agree that the voices
they just heard must have been either Marsh or Steed… Brian Frisby
and Trueheart Brown drive up to their location ( in their Polaris Ranger )
there in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
The men greet each other… and the video abruptly cuts off.
We do NOT hear any of the ‘sharing of intel’ between Frisby, Brown
and Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell that is
known to have happened at this point as per unredacted Blue Ridge
Unit Logs.
It is NOT likely that Aaron Hulburd would have actually decided to
turn his Helmet Camera OFF at this exact point in time and NOT have
recorded what else they were being by Frisby and Brown for the
next TWO full minutes.
Typo above. Left out the word ‘told’.
Last paragraph above should have been…
It is NOT likely that Aaron Hulburd would have actually decided to
turn his Helmet Camera OFF at this exact point in time and NOT have
recorded what else they were being TOLD by Frisby and Brown for the
next TWO full minutes.
Thanks WTKTT getting tired of these arguments perpetrated by EN and attacks on us seems a unnecessary discussion.
I am still actively working on transcribing all these videos and I will publish FULL transcripts soon.
As for the moment above in the same video where we finally learn that Gary Coirdes was so sure GM was heading to the BSR that he was trying to arrange for an Engine to go there and ‘watch’ for them ( establish a LOOKOUT for Granite? )… there is now clearly this moment when Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell seem sure they just heard Marsh or Steed transmitting on TAC channels.
There ARE voices there in that ‘static’…. and I’m working hard on figuring out what is actually being said there.
This could be that moment ( reported by any number of people ) where they also thought they heard Marsh and/or Steed transmitting just prior to the MAYDAY calls on the Air-To-Ground channel.
More on that later.
Thanks WTKTT
Was Esquibel driving the Glendale fire truck passing the camera at the 231 mark of M2400264?
Reply to calvin post on November 23, 2014 at 2:12 pm
>> calvin asked
>>
>> Was Esquibel driving the Glendale fire truck passing
>> the camera at the 231 mark of M2400264?
More than likely, yes.
Even though the Resource Orders say that Tyson Esquibel had to ‘hitch a ride’ to Yarnell that morning with Todd Foster, it’s pretty always been assumed that Tyson Esquibel was driving that long yellow/white Glendale pickup with the camper top around Yarnell for all of Sunday.
Aaron Hulburd’s video ( M2U00264 ) also captures Esquibel saying “Copy, thank you” at the very moment Hulburd’s camera also caught him passing by the St. Joseph Shrine Parking lot heading EAST on Shrine road towards Hwy 89.
Other than Frisby and Brown ( in their UTV ), Esquibel was the ‘last one out’ from the Youth Camp Area. Frisby and Brown were right behind him in their Polaris Ranger.
Just seconds after Esquibel passes Hulburd’s camera is when we hear that loud HUM and then the loud STATIC with voices underneath it that both Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell would say they were sure it was either Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed ‘transmitting’.
Here is the transcript from THAT part of M2U00264…
———————————————————–
+2:17 ( 1635.40 / 4:35.40 PM )
(SPGS Gary Cordes): ( To TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel ) Uh… be advised we also have… uh… another… uh…Task Force comin’ in to assist so we’ll have some stuff here on the north end a town to pick stuff up.
+2:18 ( 1635.41 / 4:35.41 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): It changed in here real quick, huh?
+2:19 ( 1635.42 / 4:35.42 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): What?
+2:20 ( 1635.43 / 4:35.43 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): Changed in here real quick
+2:21 ( 1635.44 / 4:35.44 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Yea.
+2:25 ( 1635.48 / 4:35.48 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): ( To Hulburd, looking up at the sky ) That’s an (airy?) comin’ there, huh?
+2:28 ( 1635.51 / 4:35.51 PM )
(TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel): (Answering Cordes’ last message about the additional Task Force coming down to the north end of town ) Copy. Thank you.
NOTE: At the same moment Tyson Esquibel says ‘Copy. Thank you’ back to Gary Cordes, his Yellow/White Glendale pickup with camper top is seen passing Aaron Hulburd’s camera heading EAST on Shrine Road and out towards Highway 89. The ‘headlights’ that are right behind Tyson’s Yellow/White pickup are the approaching headlights of the Polaris UTV Ranger carrying BR Supt. Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown.
+2:31 ( 1635.54 / 4:35.54 PM )
(Very loud HUM followed by static with voices underneath )
+2:36 ( 1635.59 / 4:35.59 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): That’s gotta be… Eric or Jesse.
+2:37 ( 1636.00 / 4:36.00 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): That’s gotta be them, yea.
+2:41 ( 1636.04 / 4:36.04 PM )
(Foreground: More COUGHING)
————————————————————–
Thanks for this.
Thank you. You’re awesome.
Being someone who is no good at hearing things in videos, I am currently working on a lead via an engine that may add some detail to how Darrell Willis actually heard about the deployment.
And also Joy’s photos. Etc.
A lot of stuff is swirling around these days.
I’ve been thinking about that delay of the ADOSH hearing until July of next year.
Me thinks that speaks of the odds that they may be re-starting from scratch.
As “Discovery” goes on……………
What’s really odd is that there doesn’t seem to be any publicly accessible information on this.
I can see ADOSH not posting all about it ( since their entire legal department is involved )…
…but we are talking about a PUBLIC court case filed by one public Arizona agency ( The Arizona Attorney General’s office on behalf of the Arizona Forestry Division ) against another PUBLIC agency ( Arizona ADOSH ).
You can’t even find any ‘motions’ being filed in relation to this PUBLICLY FILED court case.
That’s weird.
Never seen anything like it, really.
RTS brought up a discussion of human factors in decision making earlier on, with specific emphasis on: integrating multiple pieces of information, lack of feedback, and stress.
I’d like to put a focus on sleep deprivation and fatigue. Not only do I think it was a huge factor in the mistakes at Yarnell, it’s also the biggest problem I can identify in my own workplace. I am fighting relics of a macho culture every time I hear: “if you’re in shape, you can handle the lack of sleep,” “we’re firefighters; we don’t need breaks,” and “it’s just part of the job.” I also get exasperated responses from old timers who were upset when the default fire assignment dropped from 21 to 14 days (with the option to extend): “we’ve already dealt with that.” The motivation to be tough is good, but here’s what we’re ignoring:
Short term effects of sleep deprivation:
-Cognitive impairment
-Slowed reaction times
-Microsleep (including while driving)
-Memory lapses
-Inability to focus
-Poor math and logic skills
-Greater risk of injury (poorer dexterity)
-Lowered attention to detail
-Lack of emotional control
-Lowered immune response
Long term risks:
-Hypertension
-Anxiety/depression
-Mental impairment
-Stroke
-Heart attack
-Obesity
-GI disorders
-Cancer
We also put the public at risk when we drive while tired. From the National Sleep Foundation:
“The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration conservatively estimates that 100,000 police-reported crashes are the direct result of driver fatigue each year. This results in an estimated 1,550 deaths, 71,000 injuries, and $12.5 billion in monetary losses. These figures may be the tip of the iceberg, since currently it is difficult to attribute crashes to sleepiness.”
This may seem tangential to our general Yarnell Hill Fire discussions, but I would argue that it is THE biggest safety issue in wildland fire today, and the culture is still largely unwilling to address it. Let’s also remember that many of the employees on the Yarnell Fire had spent most of June working other fires, such as the Doce. Granite Mountain IHC worked June 1-15, and 18-30.
A couple more good pages:
Excellent study on “Fly in – Fly out” (FIFO) mine workers in Australia, who work 10 consecutive 12 hour shifts, with 5 day rests (lower intensity than the typical hotshot schedule):
http://annhyg.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/1/63.full?view=long&pmid=18065400
“Conclusions: A disturbed diurnal rhythm at the beginning of night shift and a roster of more than eight consecutive days were identified as the primary contributing factors to occupational fatigue in this setting. The observed magnitude of effects suggests adverse implications for safety as the effects on performance were beyond what would be expected at blood alcohol concentrations of 0.05%. The results of this study have been used to generate highly specific strategies to reduce fatigue in the workplace.”
A chapter in a nursing handbook, published at the National Center for Biotechnology Information:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2645/
“The evidence is overwhelming that nurses who work longer than 12 consecutive hours or work when they have not obtained sufficient sleep are putting their patients’ health at risk; risk damaging their own health; and if they drive home when they are drowsy, also put the health of the general public at risk. Nurses, nurse managers, nursing administrators, and policymakers need to work together to change the culture that not only allows, but often encourages nurses to work long hours without obtaining sufficient sleep.”
Sitta Great info———-I am one of those old fire fighters but I also recognized when
we pushed to far. in the 70s the FS made a mandatory 2 day break for every 14 days work. But we did not go home we went to a motel and then back to fire or to another fire. We put in a lot of hours back then and some times were gone on fires from 3 to 4 weeks before we got home. 16 to 24 hour shifts occurred often surprisingly we survived. The newer requirements today need to be adhered to and crews need to evaluate them self’s and say no. The work requirements need to be looked at and kept in the forefront.
Bob stated ” We put in a lot of hours back then and some times were gone on fires from 3 to 4 weeks before we got home. 16 to 24 hour shifts occurred often surprisingly we survived. The newer requirements today need to be adhered to and crews need to evaluate them self’s and say no. The work requirements need to be looked at and kept in the forefront.”
The problem with this, however, is that guys (and gals) who work on wildland fires make their money over the summer by working insane hours. Given that the number of Hotshot crews in the nation has exponentially exploded since you, Bob, were last on a Hotshot crew (in the 1970’s, right?), my understanding is that there is more “competition” for work on these summer wildland fires so that the guys (and gals) who are only on the crews for the summer can make as much money as possible.
I’m not saying that this is a good thing – I am just saying that this is the way that the system is currently set up, particularly given that there were *FIVE* Hotshot crews in the nation back in the time frame that your dad was a WFF (rest his soul), there were likely easily under 50 back in the 1970’s when you were on a Hotshot crew, Bob, and now there are OVER 100 of such crews, staffed with guys (and gals) who want to make as much money as possible by working as many hours as possible over a brief summer.
Not a set-up that is DESIGNED to support the work/rest requirements and work turn-down protocol. Not in the least. 🙁
There were a lot of Type 2 crews back then as well. As there are now.
the Total crew availability has increased over the years the 60s thru the 80s
saw HS crews being replaced on fires once contained by type 2s which continued the mop up faze. Crews can be rotated and are with good Dispatch management and supervisor management.
1953 Hot Shot Crews were being established in Southern Calif.
There is and always has been a rotation of on Call HS crews by Region It is the responsibility of the Regional dispatch and the crews themselves to manage there on and off schedules. The Yarnell Hill Fire was being mobilized by the State and GM if they were at there max work time should have turned down the assignment. If you remember the State was told they were not available by the Regional Dispatch. But the State ordered them up any way.
We have similar rules here in B.C. Bob. 2 days of rest in 17 day period, usually we work 12 hour shifts, HOWEVER, sometimes you HAVE to push the limits, not because of financial gain, but for operational needs, heres a little story.
Back in 2008 we had a large wind driven fire that went from an abandoned campfire to 1000 acres in about 3 hours, once the wind dropped from 50 mph to calm, we knew it was our opportunity to corral this thing. (there were homes involved, including a multi million doallar resort….
I was out investigating another fire cause most of the day, I heard the radio traffic go nuts when the new fire started, I returned to the office and called the Incident Commander to ask her if she needed help, she surely did.
Our expanded attack crews (Hotshots) were committed on other fires outside of the area. We had a contract Type 2 crew (10 pack), 1 – 3 person initial attack crew and 3 dozers.
Even though it was outside our regular limits of hours to work , we had no choice. The IA, and myself and the IC ended up doing a 27 hour shift because there was no one to replace us. NO ONE…Crews were being reassigned to us near the end of daylight, but they had worked on another incident all day and would not arrive til first light.
By full daylight we had the whole fire guarded using our 3 Dozers. Shortly after that, 2 Hotshot type crews and a replacement IC showed up to start burning off (under benign conditions) and mopping up.
SOmetimes you just got to do what you need to do, as there is no other option. Not like we could ahve said “Oooops, my 12 hours is up, we are all going home”… The fire threatened at least 6 homes, closed the major highway (fire on both sides), took out about 120 power and communications poles (no power or phones to a smaller community up valley)..
In a teleconference the next day, the head honcho of our program was impressed that we worked thru the night to contain it, going old school, fighting fire at night, all night…
Forgot to add…
To me it sounds like this could be similar to Yarnell… Not enough resources, so you use the ones you have until replacements show up, as walking away is not an option, no matter how tired people may be..
Shit Happens
Just have to pay more attention to the crews fatigue factors
and adjust accordingly. If the crews are on base and in day off status due to fires they are not called up here.
Reply to Sitta post on November 23, 2014 at 2:28 am
>> Sitta said…
>>
>> RTS brought up a discussion of human factors in decision making
>> earlier on, with specific emphasis on: integrating multiple pieces of
>> information, lack of feedback, and stress.
>>
>> I’d like to put a focus on sleep deprivation and fatigue.
>> Not only do I think it was a huge factor in the mistakes at Yarnell, it’s
>> also the biggest problem I can identify in my own workplace.
>>
>> This may seem tangential to our general Yarnell Hill Fire discussions,
It most certainly is NOT ( tangential ).
It is DIRECTLY relevant.
It is KNOWN that Eric Marsh was still interacting with people and sending emails as late as about 11:00 PM on Saturday night. It is also KNOWN that he spent the night at the Granite Mountain Station 7, and then awoke around 4:00 AM ( See Kyle Rickman article ).
At best… that means he only got about 4 hours of good sleep ( on a cot… in a refitted garage ).
The ‘sleep deprivation’ issue is prevalent throughout that weekend.
The ICT from Saturday ( Russ Shumate ) was so sleep deprived and exhausted on Sunday morning that he was described as being ‘practically useless’ during the critical transition to the Type 2 (short) team on Sunday morning.
Gary Cordes had also been up all night… and he became one of the most important decision makers all day Sunday…. including late Sunday when it came time to make sure everyone was evacuating and was ‘safe’.
Darrell Willis had also been ‘up all night’.
Etc, etc.
There were a LOT of ‘sleep deprived’ people in ‘command’ positions on that fire all day Sunday.
I think this is really important, too.
And I agree with WTKTT who posted (hopefully just above where this post ends up) that there were a BUNCH of sleep-deprived people on this fire.
Not only was Shumate pretty brain-dead on Sunday morning, but I’ve been wondering all along if sleep-deprivation-related mental exhaustion had something to do with what went down late Saturday when he, after failing to do the proper analyses of the escaped fire, ordered a Type 2 Team and just “went along with” AZFire ordering a SHORT Type 2 Team.
And I (and the authors of the ADOSH Report) think that decision had MASSIVELY to do with the total FAIL of the Type 2 SHORT Team to ever even BEGIN to get on top of the fire on Sunday.
When JD discovered that SWCC turned down Shumate’s order for GM IHC, he made a very big deal of that. It turned out that, bureaucratically speaking, it wasn’t actually all that big of a deal. It was, bureaucratically speaking, within the bounds of OK-ness for AZFire/AZDispatch to email Eric with the dispatch order to Eric, because it wasn’t (wink-wink nod-nod) technically not OK for GM to work another two days.
I’ve spent some time this November reading up about the Esperanza Fire. There are those who mightily questioned whether it was possible that sleep deprivation had something to do with the demise of the Engine Crew that perished in that fire.
I have noticed that the Lessons Learned Center is doing a bunch of stuff these days about the potential dangerous/deadly effects of smoke inhalation, in terms of not only health effects, but MENTAL effects while fire-fighting.
Add that to the mix of sleep deprivation and………
Thanks for this post! And welcome back!
I agree that sleep deprivation has an impact on decision making. I believe some of the decisions made on the morning of the 30th may have been due to lack of rest. I have been in similar positions, up all day with normal duties, team activated and then tasked with trying to sort out the situation, what’s on scene, what’s needed, etc.. By then its four or five in the morning and briefing will be at 0700. And by the way, you are day OPS – acch!!
So, IMHO it becomes critical for the incoming team to assure their key positions are rested and ready to work before a transition time is established. Extremely difficult to do in expanding incidents, we all want to get in there and help – but are we really helping. I have been on the receiving end of this, transitioning from T2 to T1 with the incoming team not taking the fire for a full 24 hours after their arrival – pissed me off at the time but I get it now.
Your first paragraph describes almost exactly what had happened with BOTH of the SPGS commanders assigned to Yarnell on Sunday.
BOTH Gary Cordes ( SPGS1 – Yarnell area ) and SPGS2 ( Darrell Willis – Peeples Valley area ) were ‘called in’ to ‘evaluate the situation’ the night before.
Willis arrived first ( around 10:00 PM Saturday night ) and Cordes shortly after that ( around 10:30 PM ).
They were both UP ALL NIGHT helping the current ICT4 Russ Shumate evaluate the situation and complete the ‘resource ordering’ for the next day.
They had ‘meetings’ throughout the night/morning.
One at 1:30 AM and one a 3:30 AM, etc.
BOTH Willis and Cordes then had to put in a FULL DAY on the fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
By the time deployment site had been discovered and secured on Sunday… both Cordes and Willis had been ‘up and working’ for almost 24 hours.
If neither one of them actually slept during the day before reporting to Yarnell late Saturday night… then it is possible they could have both actually been up for 36 to 48 hours prior to the evacuation of Yarnell and the ‘Deployment Incident’.
So right there we have two of the most important ‘commanders’ on the Yarnell Fire ( BOTH SPGS1 and SPGS2 ) being ‘sleep deprived’ by the time Yarnell ( and the resources under their command ) had to be evacuated.
It should also be noted that Darrell Willis then stayed up ALL NIGHT on Sunday, as well, and was leading the planning effort out at the Boulder Springs Ranch regarding how to get the bodies out of there the next morning. Darrell Willis was coordinating all the ‘honor guard’ and ‘extraction’ procedures for the following morning after the YCSO POLICE detectives finished their work… and Willis was the one who specifically cranted Mr. Parker permission to be one of the honor guard in the morning and help escort his own son’s body ( Wade Parker ) out of the valley.
So add all that to Darrell Willis’ ‘sleep deprivation’ issues from Sunday itself… and I sure as heck hope someone didn’t let him drive himself back to Prescott alone sometime on Monday.
**
** DARRELL WILLIS DESCRIBES HOW GM CAME TO BE
This is actually just a ‘followup’ to the discussion below about whether Eric Marsh really was ever fully qualified to be a Type 1 IHC Superintendent.
I gave a “Reader’s Digest” version below of how GM came to be and the fact that Eric Marsh never actually had to APPLY for the ‘Type 1 IHC SUP’ position… that he was simply ‘grandfathered’ in when the original ‘Fuels Crew’ actually attained Type 1 IHC Status.
Darrell Willis himself told basically the same story to ADOSH investigators during his interview on August 19, 2013.
So just for the sake of completeness… here is exactly what Darrell Willis told ADOSH about the ‘History of Granite Mountain’ and how they originally only started jobbing themselves out as a Type 2 IA ( Initial Attack ) crew because of worries about the grant money that created the original ‘Fuels Crew’ perhaps ‘running out’.
The only job applications that Eric Marsh ever had to submit to the City of Prescott were his original applications to just be a member of the ‘Fuels Crew’.
Marsh had worked his way up to being just being the Superintendent of the FUELS crew at the time the evaluation periold for Type 1 IHC Status began.
When that status was granted… the existing command structure for the ‘Fuels Crew’ was simply ‘grandfathered in’ and that is actually how Eric Marsh BECAME a Type 1 IHC Superintendent.
From page 37 of Darrell Willis’ 8/19/13 ADOSH Interview…
Q1 = Barry Hicks ( WFA / OSHA )
A = Darrell Willis ( Prescott Wildland Division Chief )
———————————————————————
A: We were – we – and we have a Wildland Urban Interface code in Prescott. And so that stopped the bleeding with the new construction. But we had all these existing homes that we needed to deal with. And we could never get the council to adopt a retroactive Wildland Urban Interface code.
Q1: Right.
A: So we thought, “Well, we’ll just work on a volunteer basis and get the neighbors involved.” And it’s neighbor to neighbor to neighbor. They – they sell our program for us.
Q1: Right.
A: And, uh – you know, we started off early. Well, when the National Fire Plan came out in 2000, there was some State fire assistance money that came along with it, and, uh – uh, we competed real well because we had a plan and we started with a few temporary employees, just doing fuels work.
Q1: Right. Right.
A: And then we kept getting more and more successful with these grants, had a lot of money, we could hire some more people. So in the summertime, we ended up with, you know, 15, 20 people working. We thought, “Well, okay, one of these days these grants are gonna go away. How are we gonna keep this thing going?” Well, we need to have a fuels- we need to have a fire crew. And then we can send them out on fires and make – make a little money maybe and bring some 1659 of that money back and offset these grants. So we started, uh – recruited Eric and – because he had some background and his wife, actually, at the time – he’s – not his current wife, his…
Q1: Right.
A: Was, uh – she ran the Arizona Wildfire Academy.
Q1: Oh.
A: And so they were running the Arizona…
Q1: His – his – his…
A: …Wildfire Academy.
Q1: …ex-wife was running it?
A: His ex-wife.
Q1: Okay.
A: She – they ran it out of their mobile home in Government Canyon just, uh – as, uh – to try to get this Arizona Wildfire Academy…
Q1: Right.
A: That’s…
Q1: Uh-huh.
A: …blossomed like crazy.
Q1: Right.
A: And so Eric came to work for us a full-time employee and we talked about it and we got to the Type 2 IA level, uh, and we were able to prove the business model worked. We could make a little money, we weren’t gouging people. Under the National contract for, uh – we were charging less than the National Type 2 IA crews. We said, “Well, gosh, we got – we got full-time employees, we got this, we’ve got equipment. Why don’t we go to the next step?”
Q1: Mm-hm.
A: And that’s when we decided to t- take it to the Type 1 status. We had the full time employees, we – we met everything and so we did a – a year of, uh, training as a training crew in 2007. Had three s- different superintendents go along with us on, uh…
Q1: Who – who were those?
A: Jeff Andrew was one. Uh, he’s with Prescott.
Q1: Uh-huh.
A: Um, I’m trying to think who the other guy was. There was two others, and I can’t remember the other two. But they…
Q1: So they essentially went on assignments with them and – and signed off…
A: Just watched them.
Q1: Signed off on their task books as accomplishing all the things their…
A: The Interagency Hotshot Crew has a standard – uh, guidelines. And they have to be evaluated in these certain areas, and they did those evaluations.
Q1: Oh, okay.
A: So it was a total outside entity. And we wanted to have Forest Service…
Q1: Yep.
A: Because, you know, they’re the big guys in this…
Q1: Right.
A: …game.
Q1: Yeah.
A: We wanted to have them and we wanted unbiased.
Q1: Right.
————————————————————————-
So the only one of ( apparently only THREE? ) individuals who were actually ‘observing’ this Prescott Fuels Crew during their ‘Type 1 IHC’ evaluation period that Darrell Willis can recall was Jeff Andrew who worked for ( you guessed it ) the Prescott Fire Department.
It is still not really known who the ‘other two’ observers were during this Granite Mountain Type 1 IHC certification process… or whether they actually checked to make sure the existing command structure of the ‘Fuels Crew’ they were evaluating actually held all the qualifications needed to simply be ‘grandfathered in’ as ‘Type 1 IHC SUP or Type 1 IHC CAP’.
WTKTT –
Jeff Andrew is not with the PFD. He is with the Prescott Hotshots (or at least he was).
Thanks, mike.
All Willis told ADOSH was…
A: Jeff Andrew was one. Uh, he’s with Prescott.
The TIMEFRAME that Willis is referring to ( when this Andrew guy was one of 3 people ‘evaluating’ the ‘Granite Mountain 7’ crew for Type 1 IHC status ) was 2007.
That’s when this ‘Granite Mountain 7’ Fuels Crew actually became a ‘Type 1 IHC’ crew.
I have a feeling, however, that Willis meant to say ‘Jeff Andrews’ and not ‘Jeff Andrew’.
At 5:35 PM on June 30, 2013… only about 55 minutes after Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY call and the subsequent deployment… someone put in a Resource Order for a ‘Jeff Andrews’ out of Prescott. ( Prescott National Forest, that is ).
He was ordered up as an additional OPSC ( Operations Section Chief ) level person and ( according to the order placed ) was leaving for Yarnell almost immediately ( within 25 minutes after the order was placed ) and was expected to be in Yarnell by 7:00 PM.
This order for ‘Jeff Andrews’ was placed at 5:35 PM, just 19 minutes after the Ranger 58 DPS Chopper lifted off ( at exactly 5:16 PM ) to even begin searching for Granite Mountain. The bodies had not even been located yet when this order for Jeff Andrews was placed.
His actual ‘Resource Assigned Unit ID’ was AZ-PNF which means that as of June 30, 2013 he actually worked for ( as you pointed out ) the ‘Prescott National Forest’… just like the 3 other off-the-radar Bea Day Type 2 ‘Prescotteers’ Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
From page 152 of the “J- Resource Orders” document…
———————————————————————
Request Number: O-59.51
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 1735 MST
From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: OPERATIONS SECTION CHIEF, TYPE 1 (OSC1)
(Andrews, Jeff) (T-A)
Needed Date/Time: 07/01/13 1400 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: AZ-PDC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1839 PNT
Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-PNF
Resource Assigned: Andrews, Jeff (AZ-PDC)
M/D Ind: M
Esitmated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 1800 PNT
Esitmated Time of Arrival: 06/30/13 1900 PNT
Travel Mode: AOV ( Agency Owned Vehicle )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( Yarnell Hill Fire )
————————————————————–
What’s actually still a little odd is that while there are all kinds of files and records that ended up in both the SAIT and ADOSH public document releases pertaining to the most recent CERTIFICATION documents for GM and a lot of personnel files also included… there seems to have been no documentation ever requested for how it was that this Prescott ‘Fuels Crew 7’ ever ended up being certified as a Type 1 IHC crew in the first place.
In other words… NO documentation regarding that ‘evaluation period’ and WHO was doing the ‘evaluating’ ( Like, supposedly, this Prescott National Forest guy Andrews plus two others ).
Willis mentioned Andrew(s) as being one of them to ADOSH… but it’s still a mystery who the other two guys are that ‘signed off’ on the ‘Granite Mountain 7’ upgrade to Type 1 IHC status in 2007.
RE History.
While wandering around the intertubes yesterday, wondering how common it was for inexperienced lookouts to be placed on lookouts because, well, just, BECUZ (I didn’t find anything)…
…and also how common it was to promote people to positions of authority on IHCs over more experienced/qualified people (as, apparently Eric may have been) because, well, just, BECUZ (I didn’t find much of anything except a huge controversy over the demise of the Modoc IHC)…
…. while also putting what happened to Travis Turbeyfill in that category in my mind (as in WTF???)…….
I came across this. From 7/10/2013 Prescott Valley Tribune
Retired CYFD fire chief talks about special bond of hotshots
“When Mike Parrish remembers being a member of the Prescott Hotshots, he recalls the intense training but mostly the team’s camaraderie.
…
“Parrish joined the elite Prescott Hotshots with the Prescott National Forest in 1979 after serving two years on a wildland fire team in Yuma.”
So it goes on to be a nice interesting story.
And then it says:
“Prescott Fire Battalion Chief J.P. Vicente said he’d watched as three of the Granite Mountain Hotshots had come into their own.
“I helped raise those guys,” Vicente said. “My son was a Granite Mountain Hotshot before he was hired by the Peoria Fire Department. We all know someone who was on the team.”
That’s why it’s important for firefighters to attend the events honoring the hotshots who died in the Yarnell Hill fire and talk to community members who are also grieving, Vicente said.
“The community is feeling the same pain we are,” Vicente said. “We want them to know that we are there for them as they have been there for us.””
So now we know a little bit more about J.P. Vicente.
Oops. Forgot the link. Here it is.
http://pvtrib.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&SubSectionID=407&ArticleID=58688
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 23, 2014 at 8:36 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> “Prescott Fire Battalion Chief J.P. Vicente said he’d watched
>> as three of the Granite Mountain Hotshots had come into their own.
>>
>> “I helped raise those guys,” Vicente said. “My son was a Granite
>> Mountain Hotshot before he was hired by the Peoria Fire
>> Department. We all know someone who was on the team.”
>>
>> So now we know a little bit more about J.P. Vicente.
Interested in ‘MORE than you really wanted to know’ about this J.P. Vicente guy?
How about the following nasty, nasty lawsuit he filed only back in 2012 against the City of Prescott because of some shit going down in the Prescott Fire Department.
** J.P. Vicente sues the City of Prescott
Court case from 2012… JP Vicente is Plaintiff. Really nasty stuff.
Says JP Vicente was a ‘Chapter Vice President’ of the local Fireman’s Union around the time this lawsuit was filed.
Melissa Fousek ( who was the fourth person along with Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and Clayton Whitted on the committee that hired Robert Caldwell as replacement for ‘Squad Boss’ Philip Maldonado ) is mentioned in this case as supplying an ‘affadavit’.
http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/OrderGranting-DenyingMotiontoDismiss.pdf
———————————————————————-
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
John Paul Vicente, a married man, Plaintiff,
v.
City of Prescott, Arizona, et al., Defendants.
The following facts are assumed true for purposes of this motion. Plaintiff was hired by the Fire Department as a full time firefighter in February 1994. Doc. 1 at 5. Plaintiff was promoted to Captain in January 2001. Id. Plaintiff was a member of the United Yavapai Firefighters, Prescott Chapter, International Association of Firefighters Local 3066 (“Union”). In 2001 he became the Chapter Vice President..
In August 2010, Plaintiff ( J.P. Vicente ) was contacted by a Union member and notified that Defendant Devendorf had made hostile and sexually suggestive statements to two Union members. Id. at 6. Plaintiff complained about Devendorf’s behavior and Devendorf was disciplined. Id. Approximately two weeks later, Plaintiff was contacted by Caron Nyquist, another Union member, and told that she was being harassed by Devendorf. Id. Plaintiff assisted Nyquist in filing a formal complaint. Id. During the resulting investigation, Plaintiff was asked if the Union was targeting Devendorf. Id. Devendorf was exonerated by the investigation. Id. Shortly thereafter, Nyquist resigned. Id. at 7.
( Continues for 11 more pages and gets even more complicated ).
————————————————————————-
The case appears to have been dismissed by a judge. ( see bottom of PDF file ), so this nastiness never got fully resolved.
It’s my understanding that the chartering process for IHCs is done by the IHC regional Coordinating Groups. And it’s pretty stringent.
I would guess the actual CHARTERING of the Granite Mountain IHC was all above-board. And that Eric would have had to have QUALIFIED, in that process, as Superintendent, even though there were others, who maybe were MORE qualified, who were not selected for that post by the hosting agency, the Prescott Fire Department.
It’s my understanding that when a USFS-hosted IHC is hiring a superintendent, the search for that superintendent is more nationally done, via a more national pool.
But, even that can, it appears to me, be “contaminated” by more local “politics,” as, it seems, happened regarding the Modoc IHC, in which a District FMO had a bit too much influence, in the eyes of some, on the hiring of their superintendent, and, from there, everything went south.
But the hosting agency has the ultimate say, it appears, in who is hired as the IHC Superintendent (who actually does have to qualify for that position via national interagency standards), although the actual chartering of the IHC is done by a much larger group of qualified people.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> But the hosting agency has the ultimate say, it appears, in who
>> is hired as the IHC Superintendent (who actually does have
>> to qualify for that position via national interagency standards).
Exactly. In this case the ‘hosting agency’ ( City of Prescott ) required Eric Marsh to submit a new, official, City of Prescott ‘Application for Employment’ when all three of the following things happened with him…
1) When Marsh was first hired as just a ‘grunt’ on the new ‘Fuels Crew’.
2) When Marsh was being bumped to Captain of the ‘Fuels Crew’
3) When Marsh was being bumped to ‘Superintendent’ of the ‘Fuels Crew’.
Those are the ONLY THREE ‘Applications for Employment’ that are present in Marsh’s City of Prescott Personnel file.
Keyword here is ‘Fuels Crew’.
The ONLY ‘qualifications’ Marsh ever had to included with his official job applications were the ones that met the criteria for the actual JOB he was now submitting an application for… and ALL of those ‘jobs’ he applied for were specifically for positions within this ‘Fuels Crew’ hosted by Prescott.
So even though the City of Prescott ended up being the official ‘hosting agency’ for the eventual ‘Type 1 IHC’ crew… they NEVER required Eric Marsh ( or anyone else on the Fuels Crew ) to resubmit job applications for their NEW titles like “Type 1 IHC Superintendent’ or “Type 1 IHC Captain’.
The existing command structure of this ‘Fuels Crew’ was simply ‘grandfathered in’ to the their NEW ‘Type 1 IHC’ titles when permission was given to just start CALLING themselves a ‘Type 1 IHC crew’.
As you said ( and as I said somewhere else as well )… I am ASSUMING that part of the intial CHARTERING and CERTIFICATION included someone ( who? ) checking to make sure the existing command structure of a ‘Fuels Crew’ actually had the full qualifications for what would become their new ‘Type 1 IHC’ titles…
…but there is NOTHING about that in Eric Marsh’s Personnel file.
NOR is there any real documentation about this original CHARTERING and/or CERTIFICATION process itself… such as WHO the (supposedly) THREE people were that were ‘evaluating’ this Prescott ‘Fuels Crew’ for a year and then eventually ‘signed off’ on their qualifications and readiness for ‘Type 1 IHC’ status.
Darrell Willis says ONE of those three ‘observers’ was Jeff Andrews ( who worked right there in Prescott for the Prescott National Forest )… but we still don’t know who the other TWO guys ( or gals? ) were that ‘signed off’ on this.
WTKTT———-Heads up
A New poster SUPER PETE posted on the 19th with questions you would be better able to answer take a look and see. First time I saw it today as I was going thru Comments.
Seemed very interested. If you get time see what you can do.
To SUPER PETE to put questions to the top of the page go to the very bottom
Leave A Reply——Then your info won’t get lost in the discussion.
Mr. Powers… yes… I saw that posting from “SUPER PETE”.
A lot of good observations in there and a lot of important questions.
I’m working on a full response.
Thanks for pulling this up, Bob. I’m surprised I didn’t see it. Even when I’m not posting, I do try to keep an eye on what people are writing.
I just wrote him a long reply.
These excerpts were taken from a 1995 Fire Management Notes article titled “Human Decision Making in the Fire Environment” by Dr. Curt Braun (Univ. of ID) and Buck Latapie (USFS). They are relevant to our Human Factors discussions. And with little effort you will readily see the parallels to what transpired on the YH Fire. Please feel free to expand on what was written in this article and relate the article’s details to specific instances that happened on the YH Fire.
Characteristics of Human Decision-Making
“Although we would like to think that humans are efficient and accurate decision-makers, research
clearly shows that human decision making can be less than perfect; stress has been shown
to adversely influence decision quality in a variety of ways.” There 30 June 2013 YH Fire situation was obviously and escalating stressful environment all day long.
“There are at least three decision-making situations in the fire environment that might be particularly
susceptible to these human imperfections: decisions requiring the integration of multiple pieces of
information, decisions made with- out feedback, and decisions made under stress.”
“It seems reasonable to think that having more information leads to better decisions. Yet most
decisions are made with only a few pieces of information, independent of what information is available Research evaluating how humans use information in the decision making process has shown that additional information typically fails to improve the quality of the decision.”
“Wallsten and Barton (1982), for example, found that decision-makers, when under the stress of time constraints and multiple pieces of data, filter out the unassuming data in favor of the salient and attention-getting information. Although this process is effective in reducing the amount of data, it assumes that the saliency of the information is equal to its importance. …. The fact that a piece of information is salient does not imply that it is important. …. For instance, when firefighters know that
structures are being threatened, that salient information might inappropriately affect decisions
regarding fire fighting tactics.”
Assessing the Reliability of Information
“The process of selecting what information will be useful is con- strained by yet another decision-rnaking limitation. When faced with multiple pieces of information, humans tend to regard all the information “as if’ it possesses the same informative value (Wickens 1992).”
“When attempting to mentally predict fire spread, a firefighter might place equal importance on
information about fuel type, slope, wind, and relative humidity. Realistically, the weather might
be the single best predictor of fire spread. In this situation, the firefighter might overemphasize
the effects of fuel type, slope, and relative humidity and under-emphasize wind.”
Making Decisions in the Absence of Feedback
“Feedback is fundamental to learning and decision making, for it allows us to evaluate the quality of previous decisions. In trial-and- error learning, error represents the feedback that prompts changes in future trials. Without feedback, the learning process degrades from a trial-and-error to a trial-and-trial process, a method guaranteed to produce little, if any, learning. In the fire environment, feedback concerning a particular suppression tactic might be delayed or not
exist.”
“Feedback not only facilitates learning; it provides a benchmark against which we can evaluate
the confidence we place in our decisions. Without feedback, already high confidence levels can far exceed our performance capability. Excessively high confidence levels are a consistent feature of
human decision-making.”
“The absence of feedback will result in little learning and in confidence levels that exceed an individual’s abilities. Firefighters are not immune to these problems. Whether it be an overhead team’s confidence in a suppression strategy, a division supervisor’s confidence in completing
a section of handline, or a crew’s confidence that a section of line will hold, feedback is needed not only to promote learning but also to keep confidence levels in check.”
Decision-making Under Stress
“By now it is apparent that human decision-rnaking is less than perfect. The degree to which these
imperfections adversely affect decisions will vary. However, there is one aspect of environment that complicates the situation-stress. The combination of these imperfections and stress can place new limitations on human decision-making.”
“When faced with the increasing activity of a fire and the prospect of being trapped, firefighters
might focus inappropriately on a single element of the situation while disregarding other
important sources of information.”
“Stress also decreases the human’s capacity to mentally manipulate information (Davies and Parasuraman 1982) and significantly reduces the ability to consider the whole problem or other possible solutions. Wright (1974), for example, found that decision quality decreased as time constraints, distractions, and amount of obtained information increased. Stress has also been shown to narrow the ability to retrieve information from long-term memory. In stressful situations, humans are more likely to resort to well- learned or overlearned skills and behavior (Allnut 1987). Research shows that under conditions of stress, operators shift from a slow, accurate process to a fast, error- prone process (Hockey 1986). Finally, stress produces a type of action tunneling (Cowen 1952) that might cause a firefighter to continue to apply inappropriate solutions to the fire situation when other, more effective solutions are available.”
Improving Decison-Making
“Poor or inadequate decision- making at any level of a suppression effort might have disastrous
results. The ultimate goal is to appropriately address areas that might be prone to decision making
imperfections and stress effects. Efforts to improve fire-line decision-rnaking can be aimed at three areas: decision aids feed- back, and training.”
Conclusion
“Decision-making represents one human characteristic that can greatly influence the safety and effectiveness of firefighters. Although imperfections in human decision making are relatively consistent across individuals, they are not insurmountable. Simply telling people that their decisions might be adversely influenced by these imperfections might serve to minimize their effects. ….”
1995 Fire Management Notes Volume 55, No.3 http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/055_03.pdf
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY
This is interesting.
And so………….
How do you think the above applies to your own experiences?
I’m having some difficulty translating all of that to my own.
That’s quite a bit of theory.
Marti,
Check out the entire article from the link, page 14, I think. It gives quite a few examples for each of the excerpts that will be helpful to them in context.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS BECAUSE SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY THAT YOU DID.
Will do, thanks!
RTS… thank you for that. Fascinating stuff. I read all of it.
You can really apply this information to basically ALL the ‘decision making’ ( or lack thereof ) that happened that ENTIRE weekend… basically from the first lightning strike right on through the ‘decisions’ on Sunday which resulted in tragic loss of life and ( almost ) the loss of any number of citizens.
I actually think Yarnell is more of a classic study of what happens with people in positions of authority once they DO make decisions… but seem unable to admit to either themselves (or others) that they are making BAD ones.
The science of ‘admitting you are wrong’ is almost as fascinating as studying what goes into decision making in the first place.
We have all met people who seem chronically and almost pathologically unable to admit they are ever WRONG about a decision… regardless of how they arrived at that decision in the first place.
Once they think they have ‘made up their minds’ about something ( following any number of the mental paths so well outlined in the material you provided )… then PHASE 2 begins.
PHASE 2 is when even others around them are challenging those decisons with either NEW information… or information they did not have when they ‘made up their minds’.
Some people are able to process that NEW information and consider that their original decision MIGHT not have been the best option.
Others ( we all know them ) simply REFUSE to do that.
I think there were a lot of people like that working the Yarnell fire.
I think some of those kinds of people got some other people killed.
Maybe more care should be implemented in training and hiring practices to make sure people like that never really rise to command positions.
There ARE, in fact, TESTS for those sorts of things.
A lot of professions ( especially dangerous ones) take great care to actually TEST the personalities of people before they are ever promoted to command positions.
Maybe the Wildland Firefighting Divisions need to implement more of that kind of testing.
Hmm… I get frustrated because REST is almost never brought up in these discussions about decision making. I think lack of rest, both in long and short term, could have been a big factor in poor decision making on the Yarnell Hill Fire, particularly with the GMIHC and the ICs.
This is a pretty good overview article here:
http://www.ishn.com/blogs/16-the-ishn-blog/post/98415-osha-has-no-regulation-for-sleep-deprivation-but-you-must-know-who-is-fit-for-duty
“Vegso et al (2007) found an 88% increased risk of an incident for individuals working more than 64 hours a week. ”
“A lack of sleep is as dangerous as alcoholic impairment. Experts contend that when someone has been awake for 21 hours, he/she will perform at a level of impairment roughly the same as a person with a blood alcohol level of 0.08%.”
Reply to Sitta post on November 23, 2014 at 1:48 am
>> Sitta said…
>>
>> Hmm… I get frustrated because REST is almost never
>> brought up in these discussions about decision making.
>> I think lack of rest, both in long and short term, could
.>> have been a big factor in poor decision making on
>> the Yarnell Hill Fire, particularly with the GMIHC and the ICs.
It is KNOWN that Eric Marsh was still interacting with people and sending emails as late as about 11:00 PM on Saturday night. It is also KNOWN that he spent the night at the Granite Mountain Station 7, and then awoke around 4:00 AM ( See Kyle Rickman article ).
At best… that means he only got about 4 hours of good sleep ( on a cot… in a refitted garage ).
The ‘sleep deprivation’ issue is prevalent throughout that weekend.
The ICT from Saturday ( Russ Shumate ) was so sleep deprived and exhausted on Sunday morning that he was described as being ‘practically useless’ during the critical transition to the Type 2 (short) team on Sunday morning.
Gary Cordes had also been up all night… and he became one of the most important decision makers all day Sunday…. including late Sunday when it came time to make sure everyone was evacuating and was ‘safe’.
Darrell Willis had also been ‘up all night’.
Etc, etc.
There were a LOT of ‘sleep deprived’ people in ‘command’ positions on that fire all day Sunday.
We can’t control 2 of the three factors (multiple input and stress), but we can control the feedback. I’m curious about WTKTT’s idea of testing for willingness to accept feedback. I wonder if such tests are actually effective or sensitive? Sometimes context has a lot to do with listening and critical thinking skills. Is the subject comfortable and rested, or feeling threatened or tired? If the presenter of feedback is particularly aggressive, keyed up, distracted, or condescending, that can make a difference, too.
Don’t know where this fits in all of this, but I need to make a few comments. In my experience I have worked with numerous “shot” crews that performed in a similar manner. All used their intracrew channel (secret squirrel channel) to communicate – even though they were specifically told not to during briefing. They really didn’t expect the DIV to walk the line and see what they were really doing (old school), and really didn’t communicate as far as their location and progress. As a DIV you could find them hiding and not being straight up with their efforts. Sleeves rolled up – most likely because their shirts were too big (sorry couldn’t resist).!
Don’t get me wrong, I have worked with some very good crews ( not all IHC by the way), But GMIHC is not the only one to perform in this manner – they are just the one that has had the fatal outcome.
This whole thing sucks! I hope we are not so focused on Eric Marsh and the GMHS that we loose sight of what happened – or didn’t on the first days of the fire! Hmm, to dangerous to attack at night so let’s wait for prime burning conditions!!! STUPID!
if anyone wants my Quals I will provide them, for now just call me Fred
Thank you, Fred, for contributing to the discussion.
Yes… in terms of ‘Lessons Learned’… the 2 days BEFORE the tragedy offers just as much to examine as anything else does.
Many experts have looked at this and determined that in some ways… the only ‘cure’ was ‘prevention’ as far as containing/controlling the actual blaze goes.
Once it ‘escaped’ from that small area out into that ‘gasoline on a stick’ filled bowl.. there really wasn’t much anybody was going to be able to do other than evacuate and ‘let the big dog eat’ ( given what happened with the weather, etc. ).
That’s not ‘hindsight’, either.
On the morning of June 30, 2013… scientists at the University of Colorado were ‘up early’ and doing what they do… running computer models. One of their very early morning computer models predicted to within ONE hour EXACTLY what was going to happen in that area of Arizona.
Only problem is… NONE of that information made it to Arizona Forestry… much less down to the ‘front lines’ where they could have made sure they were prepared for what was GOING to happen that afternoon.
I also don’t think anyone has ‘learned a lesson’ in this regard, either, and I haven’t heard of any new attempts to make sure there is better INFORMATION sharing between the more advanced science/prediction facilities and the established Forestry Divisions. It seems to be just ‘business as usual’ there.
So you seem to be saying ( up above ) that it is NOT unusual at all for ‘Hotshot Crews’ to consider themselves totally ‘self-contained’ and even sort of RELUCTANT to fully communicate when working a fire. They like to ‘be on their own’ and not even feel like they are beholden to anyone? Sort of the whole ‘ranger danger’ thing and the excitement of it all, or something?
Do you have any suggestions how to turn this around?
A total rehaul of the existing TRAINING programs, or something?
More ‘penalities’ on crews for ANY blatant LCES violations?
If a professional football player even just spikes the ball in the end-zone he can easily be told he won’t be playing in the next game ( because he broke a rule ).
What if any detectable LCES violations just result in penalties like forcing Hotshot crews to ‘sit out the next fire’ and let them think about their practices… or something?
Good point, Fred. I get the feeling from some people in WFF that they want to consider the Yarnell incident in one of two ways: 1. a tragic accident that could happen to anyone (“I wouldn’t have done anything differently”), 2. a problem that took care of itself. Obviously, no one wants to vocalize number 2, but when we go through the Lessons Learned exercises and the discussion ends with the summary of “don’t let this happen to you,” we skip our responsibility for the culture as a whole. And we also neatly avoid the issue of “say safe during briefing, then go out and do what you’re told.” I’ve seen such a mix of attitudes on the line, and sometimes even within a crew. Perhaps the best tool to combat this complacency is practicing turn down procedures (and related social strategies). I think we should be practicing this more frequently than shelter deployment (the average WFF will use it a lot more often!).
I also think administrators bear a huge responsibility when they promote firefighters to leadership positions, despite known safety and behavioral issues (“but they have the most experience…”). It’s really hard to fight attitudes once these people get in crew lead / crew boss positions. If anything, they’ve been given the feedback from authorities that they can succeed while flaunting the rules of safety and professionalism.
So, don’t know how to fix this or if it is even possible. But something that has entered my head is that a IHC Sup should not be assigned as Division with his own crew as a resource. I certainly understand and appreciate the utility of an IHC, being able to break them up, pull single crew members for jobs such as Dozer Boss, Div Sup, etc., and I totally support that.
However, lets drill down on this a little more. So lets say I am the crew sup and assigned as Div Y –my only resource is my own crew, they decide they don’t need to perform because they are pissed at me for whatever reason. My recourse as the Div? Give them a poor evaluation, which in the long run comes back on me. Give them no evaluation, which also will come back on me. Do the informal thing, which does little if anything. Anyway, I hope you get the point. In addition, if I did give an official evaluation it would go to – 1 copy to the crew, 1 copy to the crews agency (me or my Chief) and I think one copy to the incident document box. Seems like the classic “Fox guarding the hen house”.
So, in the “bigger picture” for a national resource how do we (the users) know what their track record might be? Other than some local knowledge, most did not know GM had issues on various incidents.
I have always emphasized the “right to refuse an assignment” in fact I phase it as not only your right but your responsibility! But how about the crew that takes the assignment after others have refused – IMHO we need to know about those folks. We need to change the system – more ideas later.
When the actual Co-Lead of the original SAIT investigation ( Mr. Mike Dudley of the US Forestry Service ) gave a public speech before the Utah Firefighters Association on June 20, 2014, just shortly before the 1 year ‘anniversary’ of the Yarnell tragedy… he eventually took questions from the audience.
One of the Utah firefighters ( himself a Hotshot ) asked Mr. Dudley if they ever seriously looked at this situation where a Hotshot SUP was bumped up to DIVS that day… and the only resource assigned to him was his own crew.
The Hotshot went on to say that he, himself, had studied the evidence and it seemed to him like a LOT of crucial communications between a DIVS and one of his IHC Resources were taking place over that IHC crew’s PRIVATE intra-crew radio channel.
He also went on to say how WRONG he felt that was… and that it is ALWAYS your responsibility to fully communicate your ‘moves’ to ALL the resources working around you because anything you do affects THEM as well.
The Hotshot said he thought this ‘DIVS being the SUP of his only resource’ and the ‘clandestine communications’ over a private channel instead of over TAC where others could hear ( and perhaps do interventions ) was a leading cause of the tragedy that day.
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley didn’t even pause.
The moment that firefighter said that… SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said…
“I agree”.
Followup… the original PUBLIC video of that entire speech that SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley gave in Utah on June 20, 2014 is still right here on YouTube…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWm3myJdQO4
The ‘question and answer’ session is in the second half of the video.
My point exactly – would /could the outcome of the YHF been different with a Div Sup not affiliated with the crew? I have my opinion.
**
** INDEX of PDF FILE NAMED GMHS1.PDF
This is just a quick ‘followup’ to the post below regarding that GMHS1.PDF document which contains all the ‘interview notes’ from the time ( in March, 2013 ) when Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Clayton Whitted, and Melissa Fousek were interviewing current Granite Mountain Hotshots to find a replacement for departing GM ‘Squad Boss’ Phillip Maldonado.
The document is a little confusing… so here is a quick INDEX of EXACTLY what is contained in that document and what PAGES things are on.
The actual NAME of this PDF document sitting online is GMHS1.PDF
It was referenced in some ‘Prescott News’ publisehd articles and is still sitting at the following unrestricted, public link…
http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/GMHS1.pdf
The document is a 24.90 megabyte PDF file.
It’s the one that contains all the ‘interview notes’ that appear to confirm that some kind of ’emergency situation’ developed while GM was working a fire in Nevada which caused them to have to ‘burnout’ their ‘Safety Zone’.
The incident seems to have had some EERIE similarities to what was going to eventually happen in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
According to ALL of these ‘interview notes’ taken together about the Nevada incident we have Granite Mountain Hotshots Andrew Ashcraft, Clayton Whitted and Travis Turbyfill all reporting about something that happened in Nevada involving all of the following…
NEVADA INCIDENT
===============================================================
Line work being done.
Dozer-line involved.
Buggies threatened.
Fire suddenly ( and unexpectedly) cresting ridge(s).
Whitted and Ashcraft RUNNING.
Drainage(s) involved.
Safety Zone BURNOUT.
Ashcraft proud he ‘kept a cool head’
Ashcraft really glad it “All worked OK in the end”.
=================================================================
The ‘combined’ interview notes do NOT seem to indicate this was just some run-of-the-mill safety area burnout under fully controlled circumstances.
On the contrary.
The ‘combined’ interview notes seem to indicate the Nevada incident was…
Something ‘scary’ ( that required keeping a ‘cool head’ ).
Something ‘unexpected’ ( to have involved people ‘RUNNING’ ).
Something ‘underestimated’ ( to have to burn out a Safety Zone’ ).
Something ‘lucky’ ( to be glad it “Worked out OK in the end’ ).
So here is the quick INDEX of the document just to make it easier to understand what it actually contains and where to FIND things inside of it.
NOTE: The only page of ‘interview notes’ from all FOUR of the ‘Recruitment Committee’ members that seems to be MISSING from this document would be the page of notes taken by Eric Marsh when the interviewee was GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell. ALL other interview note pages are there.
* START OF 53 PAGE PDF DOCUMENT NAMED: GMHS1.PDF
Page 1: Email from Mary Jacobsen to Linda Ripley confirming that the ‘Recruitment Committee’ for finding a replacement for departing GM Squad Boss Philip Maldonado would consist of…
Eric Marsh = Granite Mountain Superintendent
Jesse Steed = Granite Mountain Captain
Clayton Whitted = One of the GM Squad Leaders since May of 2010.
Melissa Fousek = Human Resources Analyst for the City of Prescott
Page 2: Copy of the actual ‘Wildland Squad Boss’ job opportunity announcement that was distributed internally by the Prescott Fire Department.
Page 3: Copy of the CONGRATULATIONS letter sent to Robert Caldwell on April 4, 2013, notifying him of his promotion to GM ‘Squad Boss’, effective four days earlier on March 31, 2013.
Page 4: Copy of email sent from Mary Jacobsen to Dan Fraijo, Eric Marsh, Melissa Fousek and Darrell Willis notifying them that City of Prescott Manager Craig McConnell had just emailed her with approval for in-house posting to fill Philip Maldonado’s ‘Squad Boss’ position.
Page 4: Copy of email from City of Prescott Manager Craig McConnell ( dated 3/18/13 ) giving the OK to fill Philip Maldonado’s position. It is one-line email that says… “Proceed to fill the Wildland Division vacancy created by transfer of Phil Maldonado to Solid Waste.”
Page 5: Copy of the FIVE (numbered) questions that were to be used by the ‘Recruitment Committe’ for each candidate they were going to interview.
Those questions were…
1. Why are you applying for this position.
2. What do you think differentiates you from the other aplicants?
3. Tell us about a time when you had to build your squad’s confidence during your supervisor’s absence.
4. What is your best leadership skill?
5. A Squad menmber has a negative attitude. How do you deal with it.
SIDENOTE: Those are NOT typos up above. Those are word-for-word from official City of Prescott form and they really did spell ‘apllicants’ as ‘aplicants’ and “member” as “menmber”
Page 6: Copy of the RATING SCALE the ‘Recruitment Committee’ was to use for SCORING each of the candidates for the position during their interviews.
9-10 Far Exceeds
7-8 Exceeds
5-6 Proficient
1-4 Needs to Improve
* START OF HANDWRITTEN INTERVIEW NOTES / SCORES
Page 7: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 7: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Christopher MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 8: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 9: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Robert (Bob) Caldwell’s interview.
Pages 10 – 11: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 12: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Christopher MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 12: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Robert (Bob) Caldwell’s interview.
Page 13-16: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 17: Eric Marsh’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 17: Eric Marsh’s notes/scores taken during Christoper MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 18: Eric Marsh’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 19: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 20: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Christopher MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 21-22: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 23: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Robert (Bob) Caldwell’s interview.
* END OF HANDWRITTEN INTERVIEW NOTES / SCORES
SIDENOTE: SCORING RESULTS
—————————————————————————————
On page 9 of the PDF file we seem to see the names
of four applicants for the positions and the ‘scores’ they
were getting after the ‘interviews’.
The four applicants ( represented in this document, anyway ) were…
Andrew Ashcraft
Christopher MacKenzie
Travis Turbyfill
Robert (Bob) Caldwell
Page 9 of the PDF file has handwritten notes that say exactly this…
Ashcraft 198
Chris 150
Turby 251
Bob 219
So it would appear that Travis Turbyfill received the highest SCORE
from the interviews… but the ‘Squad Boss’ job still went to Andrew Ashcraft.
—————————————————————————————-
The next few pages in the PDF document are Xerox copies of each of the candidates’ actual typed up ‘Internal Candidate Supplemental Application’ forms where they all declare they were ‘Applying for the position of: Squad Boss’.
They are all standard forms with the City of Prescott logo at the top.
Page 24: Copy of Andrew Ashcraft’s application dated 3/21/13.
Pages 25 – 26: Copy of Andrew Ashcraft’s typed resume’.
Page 27: Copy of Travis (John) Turbyfill’s application dated 3/20/13.
Pages 28 – 33: Copy of Travis Turbyfill’s work history and his resume’.
NOTE: On page 31, Turbyfill list as a ‘reference’ Mr. Philip Maldonado, the one whose job of ‘GM Squad Boss’ is what they are all applying for because Maldonado had recently taken another job with the Prescott Solid Waste Division.
Page 34: Copy of a letter of recommendation for Travis Turbyfill from Tim Snyder, ENGB / Faller “C” / Paramedic – CVFD
Page 35: Copy of a ‘Certificate of Appreciation’ given to Turbyfill by the USMC.
Pages 36-38: Copy of another resume’ submitted by Travis Turbyfill.
Page 39: Another letter or recommendation for Travis Turbyfill from Philip Maldonado himself, the man whose ‘Squad Boss’ job Turbyfill was applying for.
Page 40: Duplicate copy of same letter or recommendation for Travis Turbyfill from Tim Snyder, ENGB / Faller “C” / Paramedic – CVFD
Page 41: Copy of a self-promotion document submitted by Turbyfill named “Five Values of TRAVIS TURBYFILL”
Page 42: Copy of Robert Caldwell’s application dated 3/21/13.
Pages 43 – 45: Copy of Robert Caldwell’s original GMIHC application dated 1/14/10.
At this point… the document contains other job applications being received at this time for people wanting to also ‘move up’ to ‘Lead Crew Member’ for GM.
Pages 46 – 48: Copy of Joe Thurston’s application for ‘Lead Crew Member’ 3/21/13.
Pages 46 – 53: Copy of Wade Parker’s application for ‘Lead Crew Member’ 3/21/13.
* END OF 53 PAGE PDF DOCUMENT NAMED: GMHS1.PDF
This is probably neither here not there… but it should be noted that not only did applicant Travis Turbyfill receive the highest score ( by far ) following all the interviews… Travis Turbyfill also included the most complete resume’ and had MORE ‘letters of recommendation’ included than any other applicant… INCLUDING a specific ‘letter of recommendation’ from GM Squad Boss Philip Maldonado himself recommending Turbyfill as his replacement…
…but the job promotion was, in the end, still actually given to Robert Caldwell.
Bad typo in first sentence above. Should have been…
“This is probably neither here NOR there…”
Marti—–On Travis Dotson Lessons learned
Take the info as a story——-
A Fire fighter who has lost his focus on Safety its telling others that fire line safety is important.
Not meteors falling on a fire camp. Personnel things can and do get in the way of your job and create
controversy which affects safety. Bringing personal reality to the fore front.
If that was not what he was saying then he desperately needs to find a new non fire job.
The most important thing I took from his contribution is that we still have a huge gap between what we say and what we do. There is absolutely a problem with ‘fight fire efficiently and take the blame if you get hurt.’ These SAIRs only compound it. If we don’t get realistic about our message vs. actions during training and report phases, it won’t translate throughout the field (we’ll be relying on a few sturdy leaders with excellent critical thinking skills and compassion to get everyone home safe at the end of the assignment).
I want a working environment that truly prioritizes safety, and recognizes that we do that even though we’ll never have perfect conditions. What I felt Dotson was calling for was realistic support for safe decision making in the field. Realistic is key, because if learning materials don’t recognize a chaotic, difficult environment, how are the fireline employees supposed to take them seriously? We haven’t been dealing with this disconnect too well at the official (say, WFSTAR) levels.
As yousaw my last.comment here I was writing when Leonard Hunter peaked at my internet page and when i heard him speak on the fire at 3:15pm as he talked to a couple rebuilding on Manzanita their non primeresidence I wrote on paper the new thing is noone is allowed to talk in Yarnell library but if he or if je can ask couple if they were therethat weekend and I began reporting it live to you all than we went and looked at photos and he let me take pics with my ccell and then I thought I know he has tracfone pay as u go but I asked if he can text me so the first to get phhotoswas a loved one of the gmhs than JD than the rest.I am not sure if all 1143 got them so if not let me know..back to bed…
All this commenting on Marsh and his reported issues with authority—Maybe it is just that maybe the concern here is NOT Marsh but maybe the issue is the authority and they do not belong in that role. Maybe Marsh had his ways about him but maybe behind the scenes there is more to this that SUPPORTS Marsh so why talk about him unless say you are Amanda Marsh or Allen Sinclair or people who “really” knew about the man. If those people speak on the topic I would listen but just to think HOW well this world to sway people to think this way or that…why? We know in the end Steed and Marsh died with the men but maybe air attack has video or photos not shown yet that share this last hours in more detail to help piece this better vs. calling out folks on reportedly past actions because we all know in this day and age what is reported does not mean that is WHAT IT IS…right Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and all the fine folks who created that SAIR…you see what I am saying…if you did not get an email of the recent photos from 11-20 to yesterday than email [email protected] to get it where it does SHOW additional LAST COMMUNICATIONS beyond we are getting set to deploy our shelters…You really disappoint me the people who did the SAIR…really disappoint me.
Regarding past practices of Marsh being disingenuous:
This is anecdote from a DIVS (hereinafter referred to as DIVS) occurred on the 2010 Horseshoe One Fire in SE AZ. where GMHS was one of four IHC supervised by this DIVS. This DIVS stated that he was high-pointed, standing around talking with three (3) of the other IHC Superintendents, discussing tactics and strategy. The GMHS Superintendent was NOT one of these three Crews represented in this discussion. DIVS stated all present were maintaining LCES and watching out for their respective resources and Crews, and were listening to their radios on Command Tactical, and respective Crew Net channels.
DIVS called the Line Paramedic (L/P) to check on his location and status. The L/P stated he was “still on the fireline near a helispot administering a second bag of fluids into one of the GMHS.” DIVS acknowledged and then radioed GMHS Superintendent Marsh to inquire about this medical situation involving his Crewmember. DIVS said Marsh radioed back something to the effect of I have been trying to get in touch with you on TAC several times now and have had no luck.’
DIVS inquired of the other three IHC Superintendents standing there with the DIVS the entire time, monitoring their radios, if they ever heard Marsh calling DIVS on TAC. The answer from all three IHC Superintendents was NEGATIVE,, none of them heard any radio transmissions on TAC from Marsh and/or GMHS at any time.
DIVS stated that with the recent cases, and some WFF deaths, due to Rhabdomyolysis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhabdomyolysis , that he felt this should have qualified as an ”incident within an incident” requiring IMT Medical Plan protocols to be initiated. These IMT protocols almost always entail at a minimum, supervisory notification and the IMT Medical Unit Leader. Moreover, this is also F/O #7 – “PROMPT COMMUNICATIONS with your forces, YOUR SUPERVISOR, and adjoining forces.” Supervisors do NOT like surprises!
DIVS stated that this supported/corroborated other experiences he had with GMHS Superintendent Marsh where Marsh utilized this same tactic of being disingenuous and other unflattering terms.. I would go so far as suggest that in this case Marsh LIED to the DIVS because neither he nor any of the nearby IHC Superintendents ever heard Marsh call DIVS on the radio. So, once again, I ALLEGE another instance of normalization of deviance and deception.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY.
As always… thank you, RTS.
Question: Did the DIVS actually give any indication WHY the paramedic was, in fact, administering fluids to the GMIHC crewman?
Even when he finally got Marsh on the radio… did Marsh offer any explanation?
Thanks for this story.
What I’m wondering is WHO should have initiated an “Incident Within An Incident,” and thus something that would have at least initiated some kind of report or review of it?
WTKTT and Marti,
From WTKTT, “Question: Did the DIVS actually give any indication WHY the paramedic was, in fact, administering fluids to the GMIHC crewman?” DIVS stated the L/P was administering fluids by IV because the GMHS Crewmember was very dehydrated and in the advanced stage(s) of heat exhaustion. The dangerous thing with Rhabdomyolysis (Rhabdo) is that it is so subtle, yet so serious It very quickly escalates from heat exhaustion to serious injury and/or death. Check out the link above. Serious stuff. There was a case where an IHC Superintendent argued with medical doctors insisting that his crewmember be tested for Rhabdo against the protestations of the doctors, who insisted he only had heat exhustion. He tested off-the-charts for Rhabdo!
WTKTT question: “Even when he finally got Marsh on the radio… did Marsh offer any explanation?” DIVS said Marsh avoided answering the question and avoided DIVS, and was reassigned to another Division the following shift so DIVS said he never got any resolution to the matter.
Marti,
Marti Question ” …WHO should have initiated an “Incident Within An Incident,” and thus something that would have at least initiated some kind of report or review of it?” The Crew Supervisor and/or Medical Unit Leader would initiate the Incident Within An Incident based on the Medical Plan protocol. However, due to Privacy Act laws and HIPAA laws ( http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/index.html ) those records would be exempt and not retrievable by an outside party.
Reply to RTS post on November 20, 2014 at 7:55 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> DIVS stated the L/P was administering fluids by IV because
>> the GMHS Crewmember was very dehydrated and in the
>> advanced stage(s) of heat exhaustion.
Thank you. That’s what I thought it might have been.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The dangerous thing with Rhabdomyolysis (Rhabdo) is that
>> it is so subtle, yet so serious It very quickly escalates from
>> heat exhaustion to serious injury and/or death.
>>
>> Check out the link above. Serious stuff.
I did. Thank you for providing it. Never heard of it before but you are RIGHT. Really nasty stuff and time would be of the essence.
>> RTS also said
>>
>> DIVS said Marsh avoided answering the question and avoided
>> DIVS, and was reassigned to another Division the following
>> shift so DIVS said he never got any resolution to the matter.
Wow. Okay. Thanks again. That’s really not good on Marsh’s part.
It shows a strong reluctance to interact with authority figures ( which Marsh was actually written up for in his own personnel file ) even when the well-being of one of his crewmembers was involved.
Speaking of ‘reassigned to another Division” ( on the Horseshoe fire ) see another post I made on this thread just below where I was trying to clarify whether ‘Horseshoe 1’ is ever also referred to as ‘Horseshoe 2’… or whether they are two totally different fires ( but both on the Coronado? ).
If they are the SAME ‘Horseshoe / Coronado’ fire… then Darrell Willis himself related to ADOSH another story from the same fire about Marsh refusing to do something and ‘butting head with OPS’.
If they are NOT the same fire… then apparently Granite Mountain was assigned to BOTH ‘Horsehoe’ fires… and ended up ( it seems ) ‘butting heads’ with management on BOTH of them.
WTKTT,
Check your post below for that Horseshoe Fire clarification
I did. Thank you.
So it really does look like Granite Mountain was assigned to BOTH of these ‘Horseshoe’ fires ( In 2010 and again in 2011 ) and each one has its OWN story with regards to Granite Mountain’s performance there.
WTKTT’s mention of Marsh’s personnel file I believe refers to the evaluation where Marsh is told he must, among other things, learn to speak when spoken to. Apparently he would go for a day or more when in bad moods and simply not respond to anyone, because he was in a funk.
While the approach of that evaluation may have been very humane as regards Marsh himself, certainly it seems that communication issues were never his strong suit. And, one problem with a clubby culture is there’s a tendency to not necessarily think about the difference between being gruff or difficult to approach, and actually literally feeling whatever the reason that in a work context one is entitled not to respond.
There is then also a huge heuristics issue for the crew that learns over years to cope with those communication issues. Aside from little PPE things being ignored, such as sleeves, apparently there was more than one instance where GM basically went for a long walk that no one knew about, and it has been reported that there was an expectation that the crew not say anything to divulge the crew’s movements. RTS’s anecdote about the crew member being treated without Marsh reporting that fits that pattern. In terms of normalization of deviance, I’m sure no one thought that this was unusual, because there was simply the idea that this was the way things are done.
So, at the top of the bushwhack before dropping off the saddle, this was a group (and a larger group, where it is even more difficult to speak up) where culturally it seems particularly unlikely anyone would have openly voiced concerns.
I have to agree with ALL of that… and add “well said”.
VERY well said, actually.
Marsh’s own ‘evaluations’ prove that he had been ‘improving’ in his social skills and his communications with figures of authority. It is obvious that, over the years, he had stopped just ‘flipping’ from either being slightly/wholly catatonic or ‘yelling at anyone not meeting his expectations’ to a more reasonable person and a more wisened supervisor. We all grow. We all learn. There is basically NO ONE who was not full of praise for Eric Marsh with regards to his teaching abilities and the way he could present complex topic to rooms full of firefighters ( at the Arizona Wildfire Academy that he founded with his ex-wife ).
But his ‘personality’ is still something of an issue here.
Look… no one is trying to ‘pick someone apart’ here.
The FACT is that there ARE pieces of evidence which indicate a particular indentifiable personality type was out on that ridge that day… and was being a ‘Division Supervisor’ for only one of the first times in his life.
The evidence is all there that despite his progress over the years… even on June 30, 2013 he still seemed to be ‘flipping’ from being either hard-headed or actually openly ARGUING with people that were ‘not meeting his expectations’ ( Rory Collins, Rance Marquez, possibly Jesse Steed himself, etc. ).
The evidence is also there that he was ‘wearing 2 hats’ and sometimes finding it difficult to separate between his DIVS responsibilities and his usual GMIHC SUP role. ( Example: Occasionally answering direct calls for ‘Granite Mountain’ before acting GMIHC SUP Jesse Steed even had a chance to respond ).
It was a CONFUSING situation out there.
On top of that… he only had ONE resource assigned to him… and conversations that would NORMALLY have taken place between a DIVS and an IHC resource were happening over a PRIVATE radio channel and not over the more ‘public’ TAC channels… as would normally be the case ( Even SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley agreed in public that this was ‘a problem that day’ ).
ALL of these things ( personality, circumstance, habits, etc. ) were combining that day into a very bad situation.
There are LESSONS TO BE LEANRED here.
This tragic incident does, in fact, ultimately have causal factors that are totally in the ‘Human Factors’ realm… and they deserve to be analyzed and discussed.
Reply to SR post on November 21, 2014 at 7:19 am
>> SR said…
>>
>> WTKTT’s mention of Marsh’s personnel file I believe
>> refers to the evaluation where Marsh is told he must,
>> among other things, learn to speak when spoken to.
>> Apparently he would go for a day or more when in
>> bad moods and simply not respond to anyone,
>> because he was in a funk.
Yes… I was referring to those documented cases in his official (written) evaluations… but that wasn’t the only ‘communication’ and/or ‘problems with authority’ things that are documented ( in writing ) as well.
Marsh’s actual final ( last ) written evaluation from Darrell Willis just 2 months before the tragedy was basically a full (written) reprimand for Marsh ‘ignoring the chain of command’ and basically going over both Chief Dan Fraijo’s and Chief Willis’ head to try and get something HE wanted.
Marsh had been communicating ‘over their heads’ and directly to the City of Prescott Human Resources division regarding the benefits HE wanted for Andrew Ashcraft.
Willis called him out on that ( officially, in writing ) in no uncertain terms in his last performance evaluation before Marsh’s death.
There are also other ‘hints’ ( from Willis… on an ongoing basis ) in Marsh’s performance evaluations that if he was ever going to be able to replace Willis as ‘Wildland Division Chief’… then he needed to get a lot better at interacting with his superiors and ‘establishing meaningful relationships’ with them.
The totality of these evaluations ( and not just one single item ) simply seems to indicate that while Eric Marsh certainly knew his business… he was very much a ‘loner’ that was being ‘coached’ to ‘play well with others’ and ( in some cases ) not ‘run with scissors’, either.
It’s actually kind of questionable whether, outside of the unique circumstances in the City of Prescott leading to the formation and the evolution of this particular IHC unit, whether Eric Marsh would have ever really risen to the level of IHC Supervisor under ‘regular’ circumstances.
It was very much all a ‘in the right place at the right time’ evolution regarding him and the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’.
He WANTED to be GMIHC… and he was ALLOWED to be… but I’m not sure he was ever fully qualified for that actual job.
His skills seemed to be more in the teaching/classroom area than in actual line field command and the skills required for THAT.
ALL of his written evaluations seem to indicate that both Duane Steinbrink ( first Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) and Darrell Willis ( succeeded Steinbrink ) kept trying to coach Marsh to get ‘up to speed’ for higher command positions.
Whoops… left the word SUPERINTENDENT out up above.
Those two paragraphs above should have been…
He WANTED to be GMIHC SUPERINTENDENT… and he was ALLOWED to be… but I’m not sure he was ever fully qualified for that actual job.
His skills seemed to be more in the teaching/classroom area than in actual line field command and the skills required for THAT position.
WTKTT,
Marsh’s total IHC time was pretty limited. He was a Senior Crewmember/Squad Boss on the Globe IHC for a few months . Prtior to that he was utilized as a ‘filler’ on a case-by-case basis when those IHC regular employees were ill and/or personal reasons. The ‘filler’ status would have been for fire assignments only.
Very limited IHC experience for someone who was chosen to be the Superintendent of an IHC. And several much more qualified WFF with much more IHC experience applied for that same position.
With that experience you wonder how they “qualified” to be an IHC. Seems like the process might be lacking.
Replying to both comments above…
>> On November 21, 2014 at 6:17 pm, ‘RTS’ said…
>>
>> Marsh’s total IHC time was pretty limited.
>> Very limited IHC experience for someone
>> who was chosen to be the Superintendent
>> of an IHC.
>> On November 21, 2014 at 7:27 pm, ‘retired’ wrote…
>>
>> With that experience you wonder how
>> they “qualified” to be an IHC. Seems like
>> the process might be lacking.
The SHORT version of the ‘process’ that went on
here is pretty much just the way that Darrell Willis described it to ADOSH investigators.
I am going to leave the DATES out ( just as Willis did in his ADOSH interview ) and just describe the series of ‘events’ that took place from about the year 200o on up to 2013.
The City of Prescott had tried a few times to create a “Fuels Crew’. to help clear around houses on the outskirts of town… but could never get the City Council to allocate any money for it.
‘Grant Money’ from the FEDS became available to do that and Prescott was awarded some of that so they fired up a ‘Fuels Abatement Program’ and a small crew of part-time seasonals to do the work. Eric Marsh first became an employee of the City of Prescott as just a crewmember on that intial grant-funded ‘Fuels Crew’.
When Duane Steinbrink and Darrell Willis got informed that the grant money was going to run out… they and Eric Marsh devised a plan to keep the ‘Fuels Crew’ going. They would get certified as just a Type 2 Initial Attack (IA) crew and job themselves out to help pay for the whole ‘Fuels Crew’ thing.
They were successful at doing that… and they decided to ‘ramp it up’ and go for higher, better certifications and more opportunities and more money.
The ‘Granite Mountain 7’ Fuels Crew applied for ‘training status’ as a Type 1 ICH Hotshot crew and for a few years… they were being ‘evaluated’ while actively working fires by any number of upstream fire commanders.
Somewhere during the time preceding their application for Type 1 IHC Status… Eric Marsh had been ‘appointed’ to be the Superintendent for the ‘Fuels Crew’.
NOTE that Marsh became the Superintendent of this ‘Fuels Crew 7’ BEFORE there was ever even any talk of this unit even trying to become a Type 1 IHC crew.
So by the time this crew was being evaluated for Type 1 IHC Status… Eric Marsh was already the ‘Superintendent’ of it… but he had never actually officially APPPLIED for that position. He had just been ‘bumped up’ through the ranks of the Fuels Crew from simple crewmemember, then Captain, then Superintendent.
At no time was Marsh ever required to prove he had full credentials to be a Type 1 IHC while he was simply ‘bumping up’ through the ranks of what was only a simple ‘Fuels Abatement Crew’ also doing side-work as a Type 2 IA unit.
When this Prescott Fuels Crew ( known as ‘Granite Mountain 7’ during their evaluation period ) was actually, finally APPROVED to be a Type 1 IHC crew… the existing command infrastructure was simply ‘grandfathered’ in.
So at that moment… Eric Marsh simply BECAME a ‘Type 1 IHC Superintendent’ just because he was the one who happened to already be the Superintendent of that crew being approved for Type 1 IHC Status.
Eric never left that job ( or had to be re-certified for it ), until his death on June 30, 2013.
In Eric Marsh’s Personnel records file, which was part of the SAIT FOIA public documents release, there are only THREE ‘Applications for employment’ ever submitted by him to the City of Prescott.
His FIRST one, when he was hired by Prescott as just a part-time ‘grunt’ for the initial grant-funded ‘Fuels Abatement Crew’.
His SECOND one ( 1 year and 5 months later ) when he was then being ‘bumped up’ to Captain of the ‘Fuels Crew’.
His THIRD one, when he was then being ‘bumped up’ to be the ‘Superintendent’ of what was still just a simple ‘Fuels Abatement Crew’ that occasionally ‘jobbed out’ as a Type 2 IA crew.
That THIRD ‘Application for Employment’ ( with job history and work experience ) was the LAST one in his personnel file… and ONLY required that he prove he was qualified to be the Superintendent of a ‘Fuels Abatement Crew’… and certainly not a full Type 1 IHC Superintendent.
Everything that happened AFTER that ( the decision to try and turn the Fuels Crew into a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew, the application for Type 1 IHC Status, and the entire evaluation period for that ) remains UNDOCUMENTED as far as Eric Marsh’s official Personnel file goes.
All of that was just happening on ‘automatic pilot’, it would seem, the minute this ‘Fuels Crew’ entered into the Type 1 IHC evaluation period.
It can be ASSUMED that, at some point when this crew was being evaluated for ‘Type 1 IHC status’… that someone took a look at the existing command structure and checked to see if they were, in fact, qualified to hold those same titles if the ‘Type 1 IHC’ status was eventually granted….
…but there is certainly no proof that ever happened in Marsh’s own Personnel file.
In other words… it is safe to say that the only real job Marsh had to PROVE he was ‘qualified’ for was his participation in a simple ‘Fuels Abatement Crew’ that was owned by the City of Prescott.
He BECAME the ‘Superintendent of a Type 1 IHC Crew’ simply because of the ‘change in status’ of that crew itself. He was already the ‘Super’ of what it was before…
…but there is no evidence he ever had to submit a full job application for that… like others would have to do.
Followup… the actual ‘short story’ on how GM came to be as told by Darrell Willis to ADOSH has been posted up above as a new parent comment.
It is ‘cut’ from Willis’ 8/19/13 ADOSH interview and needed a new parent comment for format correctly.
Actually… you should be able to click the following link and it will take you right to it…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-185892
HINT: You can always put in a ‘jump link’ to any specific comment of any specific chapter of this ongoing discussion. Just ‘right click’ the DATE of any comment and then pick ‘Copy Link Location’. You can then paste that into any other comment and it should take the person right to the very comment you want them to see.
Rply to Robert the Second post on November 20, 2014 at 5:10 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> This is anecdote from a DIVS (hereinafter referred to as DIVS) occurred
>> on the 2010 Horseshoe One Fire in SE AZ. where GMHS was one of
>> four IHC supervised by this DIVS.
The fire known as ‘Horseshoe One’ is actually NOT the same as the one known as ‘Horshoe TWO’, correct?
Reason I ask is that Darrell Willis told ADOSH about another ‘incident’ with Granite Mountain that he recalled but Willis says it was on ‘Horseshoe 2’ ( and not ‘Horseshoe 1’ ).
But both fires refers to SE AZ and to the Coronado forest area, correct?
From Darrell Willis first ( of TWO ) ADOSH interviews. This one was was August 19, 2013
Willis has just finished telling the ADOSH investigators all about the DEMOB incident with Granite Mountain on the Payson fire… and WFA / ADOSH investigator Dave Larsen then was simply asking Willis if he recalled any OTHER ‘similar’ incidents.
Q2 = Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
A = Darrell Willis
1425 Q2: Is this the only time that you – that’s ever occurred, to your knowledge?
1426
1427 A: I heard, uh, that on another opportunity – or another fire that they were on, the
1428 Horseshoe 2, they got into a big disagreement with the Ops Chief about, uh, a
1429 firing operation and they shut the firing operation down for, I think, two days
1430 and the crew actually was right on it and they had other crews that said they
1431 wouldn’t do it, either. They singled out Granite Mountain because they refused
1432 to do it. This was, like, two years ago down in the – in the, uh – on the
1433 Coronado, on Horseshoe 2.
The Coronado National Forest website describes itself as “an area of about 1.78 million acres spread throughout mountain ranges in southeastern Arizona and southwestern New Mexico”
So that matches your description of “SE, AZ”.
Willis doesn’t mention 2010 as the date for what HE was telling ADOSH, but he does say it was ‘about two years ago’.
I still wonder if Willis is talking about the same ‘Horseshoe’ fire you are, or whether ‘Horseshoe 1’ and ‘Horseshoe 2’ are two completely different ‘incidents’… BOTH attended by Granite Mountain… and each with their OWN story related to Granite Mountain.
WTKTT,
Horseshoe One was in SE AZ on the Coronado NF in 2010 and Horseshoe Two was also in SE AZ on the Coronado NF but in 2011.
On the 2011 Horseshoe Two Fire, according to several IHC Superintendents, there was in fact a potential ‘Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes’ incident when several IHC’s were directed to complete a downhill line construction with fire below assignment (Watch Out #9) and ALL EXCEPT GMHS turned it down with an option to complete the assignment early the next day. GMHS allegedly stated something to the effect of ‘LET’S RECONSIDER THAT BECAUSE iI THINK WE CAN PULL THAT OFF.” After the YH Fire fatalities, NUMEROUS IHC Superintendents from various Regions recounted this anecdote.
Important information ( and clarification ). Thank you.
So we really are looking at Granite Mountain being assigned to BOTH of these ‘Horseshoe’ fires… and each has its own bit of ‘weirdness’ to tell with regards to Granite Mountain.
Willis DOES seem to be referring to the 2011 ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire since he told ADOSH ( on August 19., 2013 ) that the incident he was now relating to them was ‘about two years ago’.
However… unless Willis is talking about a completely different incident on that same fire… the ‘story’ about Granite Mountain on the Horseshoe 2 fire that HE was passing on to ADOSH bears little resemblance to what you relate above.
Willis was making them look like ‘heroes’ to ADOSH for being the FIRST ( of many crews ) to REFUSE a dangerous assignment… but they simply took all the heat for it because they were the FIRST crew to refuse it.
Just for the sake of completeness… here is that ENTIRE part of Willis’ ADOSH interview when he is telling them HIS version of what went on with Granite Mountain on the ‘Horseshoe TWO’ fire ( in 2011 )…
From PDF page 32 of Darrell Willis’ 8/19/13 ADOSH interview…
Q1 = Barry Hicks ( WFA / ADOSH )
Q2 = Dave Larsen ( WFA / ADOSH ) ( Rest in Peace )
A = Darrell Willis ( Prescott Wildland Division Chief )
——————————————————–
A: I heard, uh, that on another opportunity – or another fire that they were on, the Horseshoe 2, they got into a big disagreement with the Ops Chief about, uh, a firing operation and they shut the firing operation down for, I think, two days and the crew actually was right on it and they had other crews that said they wouldn’t do it, either. They singled out Granite Mountain because they refused to do it. This was, like, two years ago down in the – in the, uh – on the Coronado, on Horseshoe 2.
Q1: Yeah, I remember that one.
A: Same kind of – not similar. They just got into a fight. The Ops Chief said do it and they said, “No, we’re not – we don’t have the – we don’t have the spacing, we don’t have the horsepower to accomplish what you wanna accomplish.”
Q2: Mmm.
A: And that – and, you know, if you have some fire experience, you know that you pretty much gotta go with the guts of those hotshots because they’re the ones that have been doing it a lot, and – you know, they’re not always right, and you can push back, but…
Q1: But they’re… ( pause )
A: …a lot of times their gut feelings are right.
Q1: Yeah.
——————————————————–
Before you throw Marsh to the wolves by him saying that he tried “several times on Tac” to call the Div, but Div and 3 HS SUps did not hear him, so he must not have called…. STOP!!!!
Handheld radios work in 2 modes..Via a repeater where you can communicate over huge distances, as long as you can hit the repeater….
The other mode, I suspect a Tac channel, is Simplex… No repeater involved… Basically line of sight… If you can’t see the other party, you may not be able to talk to them.. Simplex is impacted by topography, heavy timber and locations. Here we have gone to a Federal Communications directive called “narrow banding”.. This means less power is used to send the transmission, because the old wide band interfered with too many other radio frequencies (school buses, taxis, fire departments, etc etc)…
Even on a good day, simplex usually does not get you more than 5 miles of coverage…
Just because no one heard Eric, does not mean he did not call……
That is all possible… but it is also significant that (according to the information presented) when communications WERE finally established… Eric Marsh was (apparently?) being his ‘obtuse self’ (again?) and not sharing important information with his supervisor.
As RTS relates, topography doesn’t sound an issue. As a one-off, it wouldn’t be a big deal. But, given a pattern, which is there, it fits. And fits the pattern at the YHF itself in terms of communication.
SR,
Come on now, Marsh knew full well how to use the radio system and he could have EASILY gotten ahold of DIVS himself by using a repeater channel or asked Steed or another one of his radio holders to get ahold of DIVS. But he didn’t and so I allege that it fit his pattern of deception.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS BECAUSE SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY YOU DID.
SR,
Whoops. Sorry. I meant to reply to rocksteady. Sorry
RTS, there was no proof that full radio coverage was there or not there, so I am just saying, Don’t throw Eric under the bus or read too much into it, unless there is proof enough.. Have some respect for the spirit of those lost, they can not defend themselves..Innocent til proven guilty…
I think the ‘spirits of those lost’ would like it very much if those of us who still remain could eventually ‘figure out’ exactly what the hell happened that day ( ‘Human Factors’ included )… and do all we can to make sure nothing similar ever happens again… not EVER.
‘PAST practices’ and ‘PAST Behavior Patterns’ MATTER… because IF they can be identified as causality factors… then they can be ‘spotted’ and ‘corrected’ in the PRESENT and in the FUTURE.
According to the information presented…
———————————————-
DIVS called the Line Paramedic (L/P) to check on his location and status. The L/P stated he was “still on the fireline near a helispot administering a second bag of fluids into one of the GMHS.” DIVS acknowledged and then radioed GMHS Superintendent Marsh to inquire about this medical situation involving his Crewmember. DIVS said Marsh radioed back something to the effect of I have been trying to get in touch with you on TAC several times now and have had no luck.’
———————————————–
So we seem to have all of the following here…
1) The GM crewmember receiving the IV fluids was still ‘on the fireline’ and was near a ‘helispot’. That indicates both proximity to the rest of the GM crew ( and Marsh? ) and also indicates either an ‘elevated’ or a ‘cleared’ area for a helicopter to land.
2) Apparently… Marsh had no problem either hearing the DIVS or responding to him when it was the DIVS himself who called Marsh… so why would it be likely that the comms would be at all deficient in the opposite direction?
I’m not saying it couldn’t have been the case… but it doesn’t sound likely.
Wow. Busy 24 hours of comments. No time to read.
I want to publicly clarify the recent photos I sent to you- the reason for gap in numbers are because owner of photos was doing home project and so if any are missing I saw ALL the photos and you did receive ALL the YHF photos. Also I had six more locals just today ask for my email and number to review their photos so may be a busy productive Holiday season. Also on the topic since a few privately emailed about the flair—it was a 45 minute discussion between Cynthia and us as she showed us her photos and tell her weekend account at the Yarnell library. The folks today IF they follow-up their photos will be from mountain area views, Ranch House restaurant area, start of Glen Ilah, Yarnell and Peeples Valley Fire Department which shows firefighters and fire trucks…OHHHH I am sorry SEVEN today I am so sorry I forgot my good long hug from Jolene who will GO PUBLIC with all hers from the weekend and hers are from right in front of the Helms home. Way too cool. Some will come public and some private but I am excited. I am sorry for ANYONE who got offended about me saying Donut needs to come out like HE FOR SURE KNOWS MORE since he has been very detailed in letting everyone know every detail and answer everyone’s questions. I personally and select few others do not feel he has been very detailed and answered all questions. It was not meant harsh just because I placed it BOLD just means ABOUT TIME…what ya waiting for…Judy Garner of Peeples Valley is selling very nice firefighter shirts- short sleeve $15 and $20 for long sleeve (928) 899-7355. I told her I would publicly let people know of their fundraiser. The ones on Manzanita said they were flying to Maine that day but they may have neighbors that do and Leonard Hunter said he has some and so maybe be a very productive year so again ANYONE sensitive to us seeking the the truth and the tactics or if we come off pestering or always talking about the fire…it is not meant but
Leonard Hunter, the best senior center volunteer the Yarnell center has had—6-30-13 was located on the Peeples Valley side- Sickles Road actively fighting the fire that entire day every 2 hours looking for hot spots. He never left even after dark. Every few hours he looked for hot spots. Private investigators can call him direct. Number will not be posted but we have it. He was on the fire on Peeples side and has photos and heading there now. Alot of media sources were trying to get in and Leonard had to keep them away. He was part of the fire department at that time. (Water Thief- ask him on it) The place he fought was 40 feet from his home as well. He heard the LAST CALL. He heard it all. There is LOTS MORE but last call here at the library.
Joy~
I PROMISE I will, on Saturday, study the photos you sent me, and post them and write up what I am seeing.
Unless my mom has another accident.
Aaron’s cellphone can wait.
sounds good.
Why Aaron’s Cellphone Matters
In regards to why WTKTT and I are spending, yes, an INORDINATE amount of our valuable time trying to determine the model of cellphone Aaron was using to capture the three videos of the Model Creek Road burnout that are the first videos included in the string of videos AZFire posted publicly almost two (long) weeks ago.
I wrote this downstream in a thread WTKTT and I are conversing in. I want to pull this up here, because I think it’s important for everybody to understand:
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 20, 2014 AT 1:25 PM
It definitely looks like it’s about 99% probable the files were renamed after they were captured, for all the reasons we have been discussing. This has to do with what model of cellphone Aaron was using and thus, among other things, what kinds of files it was capable of capturing and what kinds of file naming choices were available on it.
And given that the phone captured the date right but was way off on the hours, I’m guessing he was shooting video with the network off. I have read conversations about various “hacks” that were required in order to get some of these cellphones to be able to do that. It was, apparently, not always a default option.
And I’m STILL sure the phone I’ve been “anchoring to,” was not capable of being “set” to record filenames via the timestamps. It’s just nowhere in the User’s Manual, and that User Manual is one of the most detailed ones I’ve seen, this being a pretty “game-changing” cellphone.
And, all things considered, it therefore behooves us/someone to determine who renamed them, and when, and why.
Given that we are, all things considered, possibly looking at evidence of possible evidence tampering, in response to FOIA requests, and the possible implications of that,
it is important to determine when, in the chain of events, the heel appears to have been broken off the shoe, and by whom, and why.
Of course, this would all be unnecessary if the USFS/AZFire had, as they were legally obligated to do, publicly and believably documented exactly what they redacted/edited and why.
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 20, 2014 AT 1:28 PM
And we haven’t EVEN gotten back to the videos Aaron captured on his Sony.
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 20, 2014 AT 1:37 PM
And we don’t know whether or not there were more videos Aaron captured with this cellphone.
That’s ultimately, what we are trying to figure out.
Especially given the time-frame of post-1530 on June 30.
Especially given that the Three Precotteers probably cloned their radios off of Darrell Willis’ and, thus, most likely, were capable of capturing radio communications on the Granite Mountain Hotshots Intranet channel.
Thus, the importance of identifying what may or may not have been going on with the cellphone that captured these three videos.
OK.
Back to editing a bunch of portraits I need to get done.
All I can say to EVERYTHING posted above is… YES.
It is still also inconceivable that the US Forestry Division would have only just now proved they have ALWAYS had this kind of critical evidence in their possession… and it not be likely there is even MORE that they have still not revealed.
It is still also doubly inconceivable that given what they just released… that they would not ALSO have ( in their possession ) either the ‘Unit Log’ from this employee of theirs explaining his movements and actions in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… or the transcript of an actual INTERVIEW with this employee of theirs…
…or BOTH.
Ditto for Prescott National Forest Employees Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Given the obviously important role they all played in this ‘incident’ as both witnesses and participants… it is NOT CREDIBLE that someone doesn’t have their ‘Unit Logs’ and/or transcripts of INTERVIEWS with them.
Back to work… swings of the axe…
Yes, there’s too much stuff we already KNOW is missing from FOIA releases to just sit back and assume this release is complete.
Given the significance of what COULD be missing.
Oh, and I was also thinking more and asking myself more as I gave up on editing and went to heat a cup of coffee cuz I need to be at a meeting in half an hour…..
There was a Nokia phone released in June 2004 that was capable of capturing UP TO ONE HOUR of video in this exact same format we are looking at.
That’s why we’re trying to figure out what cellphone this is.
And by UP TO ONE HOUR I mean in one single file, not chopped into 30 second bits.
Marti Lets start training as you first begin your new assignment on a crew any crew.
A good supervisor who has been around starts you on day one as an un known no matter how many seasons you have. Your first introduction Safety attitude on this crew is a personal and mandatory requirement. Good 8 inch lace boots with non slip sole and heal. Hard hats will be warn when working around tools and equipment. Along with gloves and eye protection. When fighting fire
Fire shirts will be worn according to safety requirements sleeves rolled down and secured shirts buttoned no open fronts. Shirts will be tucked in and belts will be warn on Fire pants.
First day first introduction. Your safety attitude starts with the equipment you have been issued You will use your safety equipment as it was intended and at all times.
So Safety and personal awareness starts at the basics. Then and only then dose safety awareness move to all the other rules of engagement from tool safety how they are carried and sharpened. but the fire safety 10 and 18, LCES. From Squad on up. To simple things like where you park you vehicles for the shift. Safety is an attitude drilled into you by your supervisors if they are good you have a second nature of survival thru safety.
Safety starts with the cloths you wear the equipment you carrie and an attitude to always follow the rules. The 10 standard orders start at each individual and work up to Squad bosses and on.
Learn them memorize them and use them at every fire simple or complex spot fires large fires they stay the same 2 man lighting fires review the and stay focused on the fire.
All my crews from Engine to Hot Shots could recite the 10 SFFO and I asked them on every fire 1 or several and I told them when we made decisions on fires why and what orders we needed to implement.
Pure and simple the supervisor is responsible for the safety attitude of his crew. Lack of safety in each crewman is an indication of safety awareness in the supervisor. And that can cause real problems, injuries and deployments lack of the fundimentals.
I am going to stop there I hope you got the Idea.
Thanks, Bob. That also responds to what I wrote below about Lookouts.
Putting someone on Lookout who is, apparently, not feeling up to par physically that day, and who is, apparently that much of a newbie, with an attitude of “I never question” just goes against everything I have read about Lookouts.
That has been flashing red lights at me for months.
REALLY???
Is THAT common??????????
I still do not know why they put a lookout where they did the crew Marsh and Steed all had eyes on the fire from there location.
Good point.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 20, 2014 at 4:34 pm
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> I still do not know why they put a lookout where they
>> did the crew Marsh and Steed all had eyes on the
>> fire from there location.
In one of his TWO ADOSH interviews… Brendan also basically told the ADOSH / WFA investigators is that he really wasn’t having much conversation with either Marsh or Steed… because every time he tried to tell them something… they already knew it or could see it even better than he could.
It really is still a mystery why ( suddenly ) during that 30 minute face-to-face between Marsh / Steed / Frisby / Brown that anyone thought it so important to put Brendan onto that mound… when no one thought it mattered before that.
We still don’t really know whose IDEA it really was for Brendan to become ‘lookout’ at that point in time.
Brendan knows ( as do Frisby and Brown ).
Could it have been that Marsh or Steed could already see that Brendan still wasn’t completely recovered from his ‘cold’, he as fading in that bad heat, and rather than have him just sit around doing nothing near all the ‘fellas’ they thought it best to just give him what they considered this ‘do nothing’ job down there on the mound?
We still don’t have the full story there.
“Could it have been that Marsh or Steed could already see that Brendan still wasn’t completely recovered from his ‘cold’, he as fading in that bad heat, and rather than have him just sit around doing nothing near all the ‘fellas’ they thought it best to just give him what they considered this ‘do nothing’ job down there on the mound?”
I hate to say it but that’s what it looks like to me.
I understand the importance of giving crew members the opportunity to grow their experience level.
I don’t know how often, or how, this applies to Lookouts.
But it seems to me, given what I’ve read and what Bob Powers has said, if a Lookout is expected to normally be a relatively qualified fire-fighter, all things considered, and, thus at least a Squad Boss, only somewhat just a little lower than a Squad Boss would be designated a “Lookout Trainee.”
You just don’t put someone out there to do that really important job just because they are “under the weather.”
Or so I (a proud and humble armchair quarterback) would think.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
November 20, 2014 at 10:00 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> You just don’t put someone out there to do
>> that really important job just because
>> they are “under the weather.”
Well… maybe you do if you already know that lookout location isn’t really all that ‘important’.
Brendan has, in fact, explained to ADOSH investigators that the reason he wasn’t communicating much with either Marsh or Steed over those several hours down on that mound is because every time he tried to tell them something… they basically already knew it and, indeed, could still see what was happening ‘out there’ even better than Brendan could.
Even when Brendan called Steed to say his trigger point had been met ‘down there’… Jesse Steed apparently simply said (paraphrasing) “Yea. I can see it. Do what you need to do”.
Not much of a LOOKOUT spot when the people you are supposed to be acting as lookout FOR can see what is happening even better than you can.
Yes I have said before Look out is very important should be Strike team Leader Qualified On Hot shot the ASST or Super always covered that position.
So, that would mean one of the squad bosses should have been designated Lookout? Possibly even the most experienced/qualified of the four?
Brendan McDonough has also never provided any explanation ( probably because no one ever bothered to ASK him? ) as to why there was no LOOKOUT posted the entire morning… and the only time any attempt was made to post one was DURING the face-to-face meeting up at the anchor point between Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown and Marsh/Steed for 30 minutes from 11:55 to 12:25 PM.
It was only DURING that meeting that (suddenly) ‘having a lookout’ seemed to be important to anyone.
We still have no idea what went on for those 30 minutes other than Frisby, Brown, Marsh and Steed all pissing and moaning about the bad briefings that morning and the radio problems… and then Steed asked them for some Gatorades and they gave them what they had.
The unredacted BR Unit Logs only say they were ‘shooting the breeze’ for most of those 30 minutes.
Shooting the breeze about what? The last Lakers game?
The next thing we know… Frisby and Brown are driving away and they have Brendan in the UTV with them.
So whose IDEA was it, really, that there should now suddenly be a lookout in place when Granite Mountain had already had all morning to put one in place?
I could actually imagine the conversation up there on that ridge circa noon going something like this…
————————————————–
Frisby or Brown: Where is your lookout?
Marsh or Steed: We don’t have one.
Frisby or Brown: You’re supposed to have one.
Marsh or Steed: Fine. Whatever. Can the kid who is not feeling well
just go down with you? He can sit on that mound down there.
Happy now?
—————————————————
I’d still love to hear from any of the THREE people who are still alive who took part in that meeting about WHO actually decided there needed to suddenly be a lookout, and WHY.
Those 3 people would be…
Brendan McDonough
Brian Frisby
Trueheart Brown.
If I recall correctly, which I might not be doing, I remember reading that Travis Fueller, a Blue Ridge Squad Boss, was serving as their Lookout. And they weren’t even doing that much.
At least the Highest Qualified Crew or Squad boss. Not a 2 year crewman
no real Fire background to tell the boss when things are looking Bad.
So a hypothetical. Just for my own edification.
If one of the most experienced squad bosses had been stationed down there as Lookout, heard the weather warning, saw the fire coming at him as it reversing direction, had to abandon his spot, jumped onto the ATV and headed to join the Blue Ridge Hotshots on the other side of the big bowl, and jumped into the Granite Mountain Supervisor’s Truck and turned on the radio to listen to the intracrew channel, etc.,….
I know this is somewhat of a verboten line of questioning for all kinds of reasons
But I would really like to “know.”
What would a most experienced squad boss, that had been serving as Lookout, start doing?
Is it possible to reflect on that without hindsight bias?
If it would have been me I would have driven to a point on HWY 89 where I could look up to the location the crew was and keep them advised of the fire not sit parked in a parking lot.
Even once in the vehicle he could have advised on the Fire and its activity, He just had no clue what to do or say.
Gary Cordes confirmed in his ADOSH interview that even in the morning and early afternoon when GM was working up around the anchor point… you COULD (easily) see them up there with a pair of binoculars.
Cordes was able to relate to ADOSH investigators what he knew them to be doing up there because he said…
(quote) “I glassed them up several times that day”.
There are even photos as late as 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) which show that their entire ‘walk’ south from the anchor point could have been followed with a pair of binoculars even from the Ranch House Restaurant itself… if anyone had thought it was important to do that.
One more point… Brendan McDonough himself confirmed to ADOSH that he did, in fact, have his own pair of binoculars with him that day.
From page 27 of Brendan McDonough’s first ADOSH interview on August 20, 2013.
Q1 = Barry Hicks
A = Brendan McDonough
———————————————-
1194 Q1: Were you – did you have any binoculars with you?
1195
1196 A: Yeah.
1197
1198 Q1: You did?
1199
1200 A: Mm-hm.
———————————————–
Exactly.
Either the Yarnell Fire Station, or maybe, even better, the Ranch House area, were great places to Lookout over the area where the crew was.
Thanks Bob.
Given that, I have another question.
If it had been YOU (or another experienced squad boss acting as Lookout), as you are being forced off your lookout point by the fire switching directions (not knowing what was going to ultimately happen, just knowing what you know then), would you have gotten serious about communicating with your Crew Supervisor, and maybe also your Division Supervisor, and maybe even your OPS, that the fire was starting to threaten things and lives to the south to the extent that your crew needed to consider this a trigger point for abandoning any kind of previous “mission” and dis-engaging from the fire and seriously “hunkering down in the large safe area in the black that they had at their disposal”?
I’m really trying to ask this without hindsight bias, but I really want to know what kind of judgement/authority a qualified Lookout is expected to exercise.
I think you can see that McDonough waited to long to move. That being said he should have had a plan to call BR and request the ATV to pick him up he really had no other plan for safety.
Yes he should have contacted the Crew and DIV Marsh
when the fire hit the trigger it was moving faster than the original trigger allowed for at that point or really before the trigger was hit he should have seen the change in activity and been talking to Marsh and Steed and getting the ATV to him.
Because of his inexperience he almost got trapped and really never acted as a TRUE lookout for the crew. You can tell by what McDonough said he had no real authority to do any thing but take hourly weather. So my judgment is he was put there to keep him out of the way. The lookout assignment was an excuse to sit him out do to how he was feeling.
My opinion I really don’t think they needed a lookout as evidenced by the pictures they took from the rest area. So maybe fate stepped in and McDonough survived to tell a story not yet told??????
Forgive me for asking, and I will obviously not be offended if nobody answers me, but why is the make of the camera or cameras that the Prescott guys were using to record the videos recently posted on the Arizona Forestry website so important? Folks like Marti and WTKTT are doing some really, really time-consuming research on it, so I just want to be sure I am understanding why you all think that it is so important. I apologize in advance that it is my own ignorance speaking here in even asking this question….. 🙂
REALLY GO back and read all about cameras Chapter IX.
Because I have the right to determine what I am researching here, with or without your approval.
Marti, of course you do! I was not questioning that. I was just asking why you thought it was important. 🙂 I was asking because I am honestly, sincerely ignorant in that regard.
Regarding sleeves, gloves, lookouts, safety violations, unsafe decisions leading to positive outcomes, learning things, and increasingly slicing one’s margins by increasingly succumbing to habits which, thereby, increasingly increase one’s susceptibility to dangerous accidents.
I wrote this back in Chapter 9, hoping for a discussion.
It’s from “Two More Chains” Fall 2014. “Two More Chains” is published by the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center. Which is where (in Tucson, Arizona, within Region 3) the official USFS internet publications related to firefighter safety are published.
“GROUND TRUTHS: On Learning
By Travis Dotson
Fire Management Specialist
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
This summer I helped carry a fellow jumper to an ambulance. I watched someone else get hit by a large tree limb. I had instances of being concerned for my own safety. I choked on smoke. I made decisions about risk—both for myself and others.
I didn’t always wear my gloves. I rolled my sleeves up. I fought fire without a safety zone big enough for the fuel type I was in. I engaged without “expecting the unexpected.” (Yes, I admit I did not have a plan for a meteor impacting our spike camp.)
My awareness was narrowed by fatigue, issues at home, hunger, boredom, stress, and conflict with my supervisor. I continued to put saw line in as I thought to myself: “What the hell are we doing?”
I put fires out that didn’t need to be put out. I didn’t ask questions after a crap briefing. (I just complained about it later.) Or, I did ask questions at these briefings and just nodded when the answer clarified nothing.
I had numerous in-depth conversations about risk, exposure, policy, learning, hunting, traveling, and, of course, fervent debates on the value of bacon-topped doughnuts.
Did I Learn Anything?”
At that time, I posted the URL to the PDF of that “Two More Chains” publications. Apparently it didn’t work.
So then I posted the link to the page the PDF was on. That didn’t work either. But that was when we were all having difficulties with Chapter 9.
So, given all the difficulties I’ve had, I’m going to post this first and then post the link.
The quote above is all that was written on this subject, from a fire-fighter that is being honest about what he has experienced and who regularly writes about these issues.
I really would appreciate feedback about what he is honestly writing.
For some reason that I radically don’t understand, I can’t seem to post the link from the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center which contains the PDF of Two More Chains.
I’ve tried to do this over and over again and my posts aren’t appearing.
WTF is going on?????????
I’ve written four posts, all of them different, including that link, and none of them are even appearing, although my Name and Email are correct.
I don’t understand this. I have never had this happen before.
??????????????
This is really important because this is a conversation I think we really need to have.
I give up. This is mystifying and disheartening. If you think this, about what he said, is valuable and important, google it. Or just look at what I quoted.
I have NO IDEA why this important page from this important site is erasing my posts here.
Marti,
Thanks so much for the heads up on this — I’ll be passing it along! This is a frank alert to WFFs, and would be good to discuss and post in the office bathroom (I think it’s the only place some FFs read).
Let’s try this — the link to the article (click on current issue, then click on PDF):
www (dot) wildfirelessons (dot) net/resources/twomorechains
Thank you, and thank you.
This is really the weirdest thing I think I’ve ever experienced on the internet.
I just tried to post the page your way, and it STILL didn’t post.
He asks on the page:
“Is the Wildland Fire Service learning? In this issue we tackle the hard question: Does any of this stuff work—are lessons actually learned? What do you think?”
www (dot) wildfirelessons (dot) net/viewdocument/?DocumentKey=2b933127-8948-4673-b300-79d669d3bfaf
OK, THAT finally worked. Sheesh.
Marti,
This is always a good discussion topic especially in the YH Fire case where Human Factors were the ultimate cause of the 19 WFF deaths. However, there are certain folks that want to blame their deaths on bogus social, environmental, IMT, and other things. It’s really tough to discuss these things but it must be done to establish what the causes were.
Thanks for bringing this up and thanks to both you and WTTK for all the camera and metadata research. Very valuable especially in this case since there certainly appears to be intentional coverup and whitewash by the several Government entities. One of the 3’Three Big Lies’ right? “Trust me, I work for the Government and I’m here to help you.”
I’m going to post this to the top as my roundup of what I learned today. It has to do with our on-going conversation about what cellphone Aaron Hulburd was using to capture the three videos of the Model Creek Road burnout that were at the top of the list of the Aaron Hulburd videos the United States Forest Service released to the Public almost two weeks ago.
It’s in response to something WTKTT wrote.
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 19, 2014 AT 11:52 PM
So. I spent several hours this afternoon/evening still searching for THE cellphone.
It gets really complicated because Nokia was really cranking out new models of these early video-equipped cellphones throughout 2004. By June they had one that could record an hour of video in that EXTREMELY POPULAR 176×144 15fps QCIF format.
And, actually, it’s not an antique format. It was still being used A LOT as late as 2012.
Because it was made to be viewed on tiny cellphone displays. It didn’t need to be high res or really smooth. It needed to require as little memory as possible and transmit as quickly as possible.
I’m thinking it’s not til people started using things like ipads as mobile devices that higher resolutions and faster fps settings started being more useful and more in demand in mobile devices. That combined with YouTube, whether watched on an iPad, a computer, and then retina displays. I think the expectation that cellphones take awesome video is really relatively recent.
And since I don’t have a smartphone, I’m really unfamiliar with this stuff.
I’ve found conflicting information about the Nokia we’ve been looking at. The Users Manual says it’s just capable of producing short 10-second VGA video, and several sets of specs I’ve seen on it just show it as shooting VGA only. Another set of specs I’ve seen show it shooting VGA and QCIF (174×144). It would have to be able to shoot QCIF in order to produce the 30 second video that reviewer is talking about. So I just don’t know.
But easily by mid-2004 they seem to have been pumping out phones that could shoot more different kinds and lengths and qualities of videos.
The 10-second videos were used A LOT in early messaging. And then more and more 30-second low resolution videos were also used. But, from all kinds of forums I looked at, that 15 fps standard (that everybody now goes “What??????? to ) was considered totally acceptable.
So, unless someone wants to spend an inordinate amount of time searching for this exact phone, I think it’s gonna be really hard to find this specific one. And even then, they’ll probably end up in the weeds.
We have a bunch of 30 second QCIF videos, probably one setting among others (unless there’s a Nokia that has ONLY that for its video), and I think that indicates a later model. Which one? I have no idea, at this point.
The thing my mind keeps circling around now is the file-naming.
The User’s Manual, when it talks about file-naming, doesn’t mention anything in its protocol that would include using the time-stamp automatically as a file name.
All it says you can do as an automated option is to create a default name and the software will call it something like canyon (01), canyon (02), canyon (03).
I have no idea when Nokia produced a cellphone in this 2003-thru-2005 series that would automate file-naming based on year/month/day/time like these show. Or even if they did. And I have no clue, other than looking at a bunch of User Manuals, how to discover that. And I’ve noticed that the User Manuals I’ve looked at seem to include less and less of that kind of information as they proceed.
And I believe that file-naming might be the most important thing to try to find, if we’re wondering about what the USFS might have been doing to these files.
And, actually, what you already wrote, WTKTT, about what you were finding about those file-names (altho I need to go back and re-read it becuz I was fixated on other stuff when I read it) may already be adequate for an anchor on the possibility/probability that the USFS was messing with these files. I really question the file-naming.
And thanks for the thoughts on why the camera info might not have been included in the metadata. I wasn’t thinking about how someone had to determine to write that into the metadata. Somehow I was assuming that stuff just “happened.”
Oops. We don’t have “a bunch of thirty second videos.”
We have three.
I guess I wrote that out of my assumption that there might be more.
Even without us now knowing that the actual EXIF timestamps in those first 3 videos released by USFS bear little resemblance to the ‘filenames’ of the videos…
…I still can’t believe ANY device would just be using…
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE
as a file naming scheme on a memory card.
It just doesn’t make any sense ( and ultimately wouldn’t even work ).
There either HAD to also be a SECONDS value on the ends of the filenames, or some other naming convention to handle multiple photos / videos all taken withing the same MINUTE.
I am beginning to wonder now if it wasn’t Aaron Hulburd himself who RENAMED these videos before the USFS even got them.
Maybe it was Hulburd himself who knew he took these videos in the 1500 timerange ( and not the 2200 hour as the EXIF says )… and he is the one who just used the 1532, 1533, and 1534 suffixes when HE was ‘renaming them’ before ever giving them to the USFS.
I know it’s a PITA… but somehow we still need to know what device that was, what the default/normal file naming scheme would have been… and how that might differ from what the USFS is claiming to be full, original copies of evidence in their possession.
More later…
I think that makes sense.
I think he may have looked at them and noticed the timestamps were way off and decided to, (on the cellphone? on a computer?) change the file name to “fix” that.
I could totally imagine that happening… and not even for ANY kind of nefarious reasons.
If I was a Fuels expert working for a National Forest who just happened to be at a fire when men died… and I realized I had been shooting some video that also captured radio conversations… I would WANT that evidence to somehow make it into the hands of the people that are ( supposedly ) investigating the accident.
If I then saw ( myself ) that I hadn’t bothered to make sure I had the right TIME set on my device and both the EXIF timestamps AND the Filenames for the videos I had taken all looked like this…
NOTE: According to the EXIF data in the first 3 videos… this is what the original filenames probably SHOULD have looked like, complete with the original SECONDS value used as a suffix in the filenames…
Video 1
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Actual Filename: 063013223234.3g2
Video 2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46 ( +66 seconds )
Actual Filename: 063013223346.3g2
Video 3
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07 ( +81 seconds )
Actual Filename: 063013223507.3g2
Yet… I KNEW that ‘wasn’t right’ and that I had actually taken those videos in the 1532 to 1534 timerange ( and not the 2200 / 10:00 PM timerange ).
…I think anyone might then think it would be ‘helpful’ to simply RENAME these files before handing them to anyone just to avoid a lot of confusion about WHEN I knew I really took them.
So after the devices are copied off my memory stick and sitting on my own hard drive I could imagine trying to be ‘helpful’ ( before actually giving them to anyone ) and changing the filenames to reflect the time(s) when I KNEW I ACTUALLY shot the videos… like this…
0630131532.3g2
0630131533.3g2
0630131534.3g2
It would not occur to me that the original SECONDS values would matter to anyone. I would be remembering that I took all three of the videos close together in the 1532 to 1534 timerange and so I would just rename that way rather than have to explain the whole ‘wrong time on the camera’ thing and why the filenames indicate the 2200 timerange instead of 1500.
I also would not care that I am just using perfectly sequential minute values like 32, 33 and 34 ( and ignoring the fact that the third video should have a minute value of 35 instead of 34 ).
That 1532, 1533 and 1534 sequential minute sequence will still be matching my own memory of when ( and how close together ) I took all the videos.
On the other hand… the same ‘being helpful’ thing could have happened AFTER the evidence was delivered upstream to someone. Once the ‘2200’ timeframe versus actual ‘1500’ timeframe thing became clear ( like during an INTERVIEW with the person who took the videos ) the ‘next stop’ in the chain of possession might have thought it was being just as ‘helpful’ to rename the files at THAT point in order to avoid the same ‘upstream confusion’. In this case… that ‘upstream descision’ would have been whoever was handilng the original evidence for the USDA / USFS.
Fine. Whatever.
The PROBLEM is that I am still just “guessing” about what might have happened.
We still do not have the FULL STORY here… and it is covered under ‘investigations 101’ by the classic ‘Missing shoe heel’ example.
The ‘Missing Heel’ example ( in investigative circles ) teaches a lesson to all investigators.
As the story goes… if you are an investigator and someone hands you a pair of shoes that came from the crime scene… and you see that one of the ‘heels is missing… which of the following would be your FIRST assumption?
1) The heel was missing BEFORE the crime took place.
2) The heel came off DURING the crime.
3) The heel was removed AFTER the crime, and before you got it.
EACH ONE of those ( possible ) scenarios would be telling you something completely different so it is VERY important to not GUESS.
It is ALWAYS important to find out all you can about WHAT you are looking at… and WHY it is in the condition it is as you are now looking at it.
Investigations 101.( Re: Evidence )
Chain of possession / Condition of evidence.during each possession.
And yes.
It definitely looks like it’s about 99% probable the files were renamed after they were captured, for all the reasons we have been discussing. This has to do with what model of cellphone Aaron was using and thus, among other things, what kinds of files it was capable of capturing and what kinds of file naming choices were available on it.
And given that the phone captured the date right but was way off on the hours, I’m guessing he was shooting video with the network off. I have read conversations about various “hacks” that were required in order to get some of these cellphones to be able to do that. It was, apparently, not always a default option.
And I’m STILL sure the phone I’ve been “anchoring to,” was not capable of being “set” to record filenames via the timestamps. It’s just nowhere in the User’s Manual, and that User Manual is one of the most detailed ones I’ve seen, this being a pretty “game-changing” cellphone.
And, all things considered, it therefore behooves us/someone to determine who renamed them, and when, and why.
Given that we are, all things considered, possibly looking at evidence of possible evidence tampering, in response to FOIA requests, and the possible implications of that,
it is important to determine when, in the chain of events, the heel appears to have been broken off the shoe, and by whom, and why.
Of course, this would all be unnecessary if the USFS/AZFire had, as they were legally obligated to do, publicly and believably documented exactly what they redacted/edited and why.
And we haven’t EVEN gotten back to the videos Aaron captured on his Sony.
And we don’t know whether or not there were more videos Aaron captured with this cellphone.
That’s ultimately, what we are trying to figure out.
Especially given the time-frame of post-1530 on June 30.
Especially given that the Three Precotteers probably cloned their radios off of Darrell Willis’ and, thus, most likely, were capable of capturing radio communications on the Granite Mountain Hotshots Intranet channel.
Thus, the importance of identifying what may or may not have been going on with the cellphone that captured these three videos.
My responses to EACH of the five (important) statements above….
1: Yes, 2: Yes, 3: Yes, 4: Yes, 5: Yes
I would put one of those little happy faces here, but I don’t know how to do it.
Even with my iPad.
**
** YARNELL WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME GRANITE MOUNTAIN
** ATTEMPTED TO BURN OUT THEIR OWN SAFETY ZONE
This is a LONG one, folks. Sorry… but I’ve been working on this one for a while and there’s plenty of new ‘real estate’ now since this is a brand new Chapter so I thought I would post this now. I am not even sure this is all going to FIT into one post. If it doesn’t, and something gets ‘chopped off’, I will continue the post in a ‘Reply’.
There was some consternation below, at the very start of this new Chapter 10, ( and, indeed, in the message that was posted RIGHT before this one tonight! ) regarding a lack of ‘proof’ about any of Granite Mountain’s ‘past behavior’, or ‘standard practices’, or ‘habits’ ( allowing sleeves to stay rolled up at inappropriate times, etc. )
That has been an ongoing issue for some time… and since NONE of the two official agencies charged with investigating this fire were ever able ( or allowed ) to interview anyone who used to work for Granite Mountain under Eric Marsh’s tenure as Superintendent combined with Jesse Steed’s tenure as Captain… most of all that ‘past behavior’ remains a ‘mystery’.
To this day… I think it is more than odd that NO ONE who used to work for this organization known as ‘Granite Mountain’ has really ever had anything to say to anyone… good, bad or ugly. There have been just a bare handful of actual quotes about what it was like to actually work for this organization and most of those contained no detail whatsoever.
It has been ( for some reason ) mostly just ‘code of silence’ in this area.
Darrell Willis was the one who first mentioned the only time he could remember this GM organization getting ‘demobbed’ from a fire to the ADOSH investigators.
They had received no such information from the SAIT, or from any documents already supplied to them by the City of Prescott, prior to Willis’ interview.
Willis just sort of ‘let that slip’ to the ADOSH investigators when he was asked about ‘past problems’ he might be aware of.
ADOSH was surprised, and asked Willis if there was any documentation on that. Willis said he thought there might be… and ADOSH requested he check.
The City of Prescott then eventually ended up supplying an actual ‘Unit Log’ written by Eric Marsh himself which described this incident in detail ( and in his own words ).
As it turns out… there was nothing really all that out of the ordinary about this ‘incident’. It was pretty much something that happens a lot on the fireline. Eric Marsh questioned a task assignment from DIVS because of safety concerns. He ( and the crew ) were seeing too many dangerous ‘tree snags’ to be comfortable working in an area they were being asked to ‘go direct’ in. DIVS offered an alternative ( send a team of fallers ahead of GM into the area ). Marsh still wanted to ‘burn out’ rather than ‘go direct’ in that area, and still refused to accept management’s ‘send in fallers’ alternative as an adequate solution. The next day… GM was told ‘Your services are no longer required’, and they were demobbed. Willis said they received a ‘terrible evaluation’ but that document was never provided. Only Eric Marsh’s ‘Unit Log’ from that incident was provided by Darrell Willis via the City of Prescott attorneys.
So nothing much got ‘proved’ there except the fact that Darrell Willis DOES seem to have access to ALL of Eric Marsh’s written ‘Unit Logs’ for an unknown length of time and spanning an undetermined number of Fire assignments.
None of these other ‘Unit Logs’ that Willis might still be able to put his hands on have ever been requested. That one from the ‘demob’ incident is still the only one that made it into the evidence record.
So we really, simply, do NOT know much at all about how this organization known as ‘Granite Mountain’ was performing and/or behaving prior to Yarnell.
HOWEVER…
There has always been a PDF document that was part of the ‘Personnel Records’ release from the City of Prescott that contains some pretty important ‘clues’ about some things that HAVE happened in the past with Granite Mountain… and that document hasn’t been discussed much.
It actually contains written ‘proof’ of at least the following two things…
1) Yarnell was not the first time Granite Mountain had to ‘burn out’ their own Safety Zone under emergency conditions on a fire. It also happened on a fire they worked in Nevada.
2) There was at least one disagreement ( during a fire in Idaho ) among crew members that actually ‘came to blows’ and turned into a REAL fist-fight. Christopher MacKenzie was the one who had to ‘break it up’.
The actual NAME of this PDF document is GMHS1.pdf
It was referenced in some ‘Prescott News’ publisehd articles and is still sitting at the following unrestricted, public link…
http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/GMHS1.pdf
The document is a 24.90 megabyte PDF file.
** THE GMHS1.PDF DOCUMENT ( 53 pages long )
Bascially… this PDF file contains public documents related to the hiring of a new ‘Squad Boss’ for Granite Mountain to replace one of the current ones who took another job in March of 2013… just a few months before the incident in Yarnell.
The name of the ‘Squad Boss’ who was leaving GM was Philip Maldonado.
He had been with Granite Mountain for some time… and he is actually the ‘Squad Leader’ who was running the ‘Fire Shelter Drill’ seen in the now-famous online video of Granite Mountain practicing Fire Shelter Deployment.
Philip Maldonado is the one seen ‘standing over’ all the other Granite Mountain Hotshots and barking orders at them in this ‘Shelter Deployment’ rehearsal video.
But by March of 2013… Maldonado was ‘transferring’ from one City of Prescott job to another. He was leaving the Granite Mountain Hotshots to take a position in the City of Prescott’s Solid Waste Division.
Prescott City Manager Craig McConnel then gave the Prescott Fire Department permission to try and fill Maldonado’s ‘Squad Boss’ position from ‘within’, and the process to do that eventually took place.
A ‘Recruitment Committee’ was formed, job applications were received ( from FOUR current Granite Mountain Hotshots ), interviews took place, and a selection was made, all by the END of March.
ALL of this is totally documented in this GMHS1.PDF file, including all the NOTES that were taken while all FOUR of the candidates for the ‘Squad Boss’ position were interviewed.
It is in those ( handwritten ) NOTES taken by the FOUR members of the ‘Recruitment Committee’ during the job applicant interviews where some pretty interesting information comes out.
At first glance, this 53 page PDF file looks very confusing… but it’s really not.
At the TOP of the document are emails that flew around from Prescott City Manager Craig McConnell simply authorizing the Prescott Fire Department to go ahead and ‘fill’ the ‘Squad Boss’ vacancy being created by Maldanodo’s move to another job with the city’s Solid Waste Management Division.
Then there are emails showing that a ‘Recruitment Committee’ was set up to start interviewing candidates for the ‘Squad Boss’ job consisting of the following people…
Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Clayton Whitted and Melissa Fousek.
In March of 2013, when all this was happening, the TITLES of these FOUR individuals were…
Eric Marsh = Granite Mountain Superintendent
Jesse Steed = Granite Mountain Captain
Clayton Whitted = One of the other current GM Squad Leaders since May of 2010.
Melissa Fousek = Human Resources Analyst for the City of Prescott
This ‘Recruitment Committee’ then accepted applications for the ‘Squad Boss’ position from ( at least ) FOUR (current) Granite Mountain Hotshots who were interested in replacing Philip Maldonado as a GM ‘Squad Boss’. Those FOUR job applications were from…
Andrew Ashcraft
Christopher MacKenzie
Travis Turbyfill
Robert (Bob) Caldwell
After all the emails at the top of the PDF document… we see the actual ‘letter’ that was finally sent to Robert Caldwell on April 4, 2013… notifying him that he had ‘won’ the position of ‘Squad Boss’ for Granite Mountain and that the ‘promotion’ was retroactive to four days earlier than the letter… on March 31, 2013.
The NEXT page in the PDF file ( page 5 ) is simply a list of the same set of questions that the committee was going to ask each candidate during their interviews.
Those questions were numbered and were…
1. Why are you applying for this position?
2. What do you think differentiates you from the other aplicants?
3. Tell us about a time when you had to build your squad’s confidence
during your supervisor’s absence.
4. What is your best leadership skill?
5. A Squad menmber has a negative attitude. How do you deal with it?
SIDENOTE: Those are NOT typos up above. Those are word-for-word from the official City of Prescott printed form and they really did spell ‘applicants’ as ‘aplicants’ and “member” as “menmber”
The NEXT page ( page 6 ) is the RATING SCALE the committee members were supposed to use while SCORING the candidates during the interviews.
9-10 Far Exceeds
7-8 Exceeds
5-6 Proficient
1-4 Needs to Improve
The REST of the document is then really nothing more than Xerox copies of the handwritten NOTES that these FOUR ‘committee’ members were making as they interviewed each of the candidates for the position and applied the RATING SCALE to their answers to the standard set of questions.
They were asking all the men the same FIVE questions… and then making their own handwritten notes ( apparently DURING ) each interview.
They were also SCORING the men as they answered each question and writing these SCORES into their own handwritten notes.
These SCORES were then eventually all ‘added up’ to see who had made the best impression on all four of the hiring committee members.
On page 9 of the PDF file we seem to see the names of four applicants for the positions and the ‘final scores’ they received after all the ‘interviews’ were completed.
Page 9 has handwritten notes that say exactly this…
Ashcraft 198
Chris 150
Turby 251
Bob 219
These same names and the same ‘scores’ appear (handwritten) again on page 16 of the 53 page PDF file.
So after all the interviews and the ‘scoring’ for answers… it would appear that Travis Turbyfill actually received the HIGHEST actual point score… but it was still Andrew Ashcraft who was offered the job and sent his letter of CONGRATULATIONS on April 4, 2013. The letter stated that his promotion to GMHS ‘Squad Leader’ was effective 4 days earlier on March 31, 2013.
Following the PDF pages that are copies of ALL the handwritten notes taken by all FOUR committee members for all of the job applicants… the REST of the PDF file is nothing but copies of the actual job applications submitted by all the candidates plus whatever additional information and/or letters of recommendation they might have each been submitting along with their applications.
So that pretty much just explains what this GMHS1.PDF document really is all about, and what it actually contains.
** THE INTERVIEW NOTES
Now for the INTERESTING part… and what is CONTAINED in some of these ‘interview notes’.
IMPORTANT: These were handwritten notes being jotted down by the interviewers DURING the applicant interviews. They are, in most cases, SHORTHAND and just notes the interviewer was making to him/herself to remember what the applicant had SAID during their interview and a place for them to write down the important SCORES they were assigning for answers to the standard FIVE questions as the men spoke. Few of them are actually ‘complete sentences’… but as you will see… there is certainly enough there to be pretty sure what some of these Granite Mountain Hotshots were actually telling the interviewers DURING their interviews.
I am going to reprint the interesting parts of these NOTES according to WHO the ‘Recruitment Committee’ member was making the NOTES in question, WHICH Granite Mountain Hotshot was being interviewed, what PAGE these notes are in the GMHS1.PDF file, and what some of the notes actually SAY.
In most cases with these NOTES… the interviewers were actually NUMBERING their own notes as they corresponded to which of the FIVE standard questions the interviewee was answering at the time ( see this list of FIVE question above )… but that is not ALWAYS the case. Wherever you see a note or comment prefixed with something like (3), that means the notes MIGHT correspond to one of the standard FIVE questions.
And away we go…
** SAFETY ZONE BURNOUT IN NEVADA
This FIRST one is important. It comes early in the document and there is no question that Andrew Ashcraft is responding to the interview committee after being asked the standard question (3) which was…
3. Tell us about a time when you had to build your squad’s confidence during your supervisor’s absence.
Here is what Melissa Fousek jotted down about Ashcraft’s answer to this question…
——————————————————————————————-
Committee Member: Melissa Fousek
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Andrew Ashcraft
PDF page: 10
(3) Nevada – burn out safety zone. Kept a cool head. Turned out ok.
——————————————————————————————-
So Andrew Ashcraft seemed to be telling the job interview committee that the time he feels is most worth mentioning when HE had to “build his squad’s confidence during his supervisor’s absence” was when some kind of emergency situation developed on a fire in Nevada… and he had to help orchestrate ‘burning out the safety zone’ along with the crew.
He is apparently proud of himself for ‘keeping a cool head’ ( which means it must have been pretty scary ) and he also adds that it ‘Turned out ok’.
The ‘Turned out ok’ part could mean that Andrew Ashcraft actually told the committee there might have been a moment when they all thought it might NOT ‘Turn out ok’ and he is still proud of himself for having been able to ‘keep a cool head’ when it was all happening.
This ‘Nevada’ burnout incident ( and whatever Ashcraft was actually saying about it ) is then mentioned in OTHER interviewer’s notes.
NOTE: Keep in mind with ALL of these ‘interview notes’ that ALL FOUR of the ‘interview committee’ members were present while EACH of the four applicants was being interviewed, and they were ALL making their OWN handwritten notes at the same time the ‘interviewee’ was speaking. So when one of the applicants said something like this… there tend to be FOUR different handwritten notes about it being jotted down ( in their own way ) be all FOUR of the interviewers at the same time.
Here is what interviewer Jesse Steed seemed to write down in HIS ‘handwritten’ notes about what Andrew Ashcraft was saying at the same moment Melissa Fousek wrote her own notes shown above…
———————————————————-
Comittee Member: Jesse Steed
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Andrew Ashcraft
PDF page: 7
(3) Nevada – burn out safety zone – buggies,
dozer line – turned out okay.
———————————————————-
So Jesse Steed’s NOTES ( taken at the same moment Melissa Fousek was writing hers during Ashcraft’s interview ) seem to confirm exactly what Melissa’s notes indicate she heard Ashcraft saying at that point in his interview.
Steed’s own handwritten NOTES are almost identical to Fousek’s right down to Ashcraft telling them ‘It all turned out OK in the end”.
Steed, however, added the words ‘buggies’ and ‘dozer line’ to HIS notes about this ‘burn out safety zone’ story coming from Ashcraft.
So apparently the ‘Safety Zone burnout’ Ashcraft was describing where he was proud that he ‘kept his cool’ and glad that it ‘turned out ok in the end’ also involved the GM buggies and ( perhaps ) a ‘dozer line’.
SIDENOTE: This is all starting to sound eerily similar to what eventually happened in Yarnell including issues with ‘buggies’, ‘dozer-lines’, ‘Safety Zones’ and ‘burning out around ourselves’.
But there is even more.
Now we see ‘Recruitment Comittee’ member Eric Marsh’s NOTES about this same moment when Ashcraft is telling this ‘burnout’ story.
Eric Marsh’s handwritten interview NOES start on page 17 of the PDF file.
He again mentions this supposed ‘Safety zone for buggies’ incident in Nevada as his numbered item (3) in his comments about Andrew Ashcraft.
Page 17 has the handwritten name ‘Eric’ in the top right corner and the handwriting now matches that other ‘Unit Log’ that was made public from the fire where Granite Mountain was ‘demobbed’.
The handwritten page 17 then says this…
———————————————————-
Comittee Member: Eric Marsh
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Andrew Ashcraft
PDF page: 17
(3) NV, Safety Zone for buggies. ( No real specifics ).
———————————————————-
So there is Eric Marsh’s notes taken at the same moment as Fousek’s and Steed’s. Marsh confirms that Ashcraft is, indeed, telling the committee about this ‘Nevada Safety Zone burnout’, but Marsh doesn’t add the same thing about ‘kept a cool head’ or ‘Turned out ok’. Marsh just writes “( No real specifics )”.
Well… from Fousek’s and Steed’s NOTES taken at this same moment… it’s obvious Ashcraft WAS adding some ‘detail’… but Marsh didn’t see the need to write any of that down like Fousek and Steed did. He just ‘acknowldeges’ that Ashcraft IS talking about the ‘Safety Zone burnout’ in Nevada, and that’s all.
NOTICE, however, the way Eric Marsh ‘phrases’ it. It differs from what Fousek and Steed wrote down. Eric Marsh’s NOTES indicate that the ‘Safety Zone burnout’ in Nevada was FOR ‘the buggies’… and not just the men, or something.
This ‘for the buggies’ indication is then repeated in the last remaining committee members handwritten NOTES taken as this same moment during Aschcraft’s interview.
On page 19 of the PDF file we now find ‘Recruitement Committee’ member Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
———————————————————-
Comittee Member: Clayton Whitted
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Andrew Ashcraft
PDF page: 19
(2) Line in Nevada. Me and him RUNNING.
(3) Nevada – Burn out for Buggies.
———————————————————-
So there we have the FOURTH ( and final ) committee member’s notes taken at the same moment all the others were writing theirs down with regards to the ‘story’ Andrew Ashcraft was telling them all at that point.
Clayton Whitted’s note is almost identical to Eric Marsh’s and seems to confirm the ‘Buggies’ were involved with this ‘Safety Zone burnout’.
The big difference between Whitted’s notes and Marsh’s, however, is that Marsh used the term ‘Safety Zone’ ( without mentioning ‘burnout’ ), and Whitted writes down the opposite. Whitted mentions ‘Burnout’ but does not mention ‘Safety Zone’.
But neither Eric Marsh nor Clayton Whitted recorded the part(s) of the ‘story’ where Andrew Ashcraft seems to suggest it was all pretty ‘scary’ and that is why he is proud that he ‘kept his head’… and neither Marsh nor Whitted write down that Ashcraft ended up relieved that it “All turned out OK” ( suggesting there was a moment he thought it might NOT ) like Fousek and Steed recorded coming from Ashcraft.
** WHITTED AND ASHCRAFT WERE ‘RUNNING’ IN NEVADA?
Notice also that Clayton Whitted was the only committee member who, during Ashcraft’s interview, wrote down TWO separate notes about this ‘Nevada incident’ and one of them says…
(2) Line in Nevada. Me and him RUNNING.
It is GM Squad Boss Clayton Whitted himself writing this note, so the “Me and him” part would mean “Clayton Whitted and Andrew Ashcraft”.
Whitted seems to actually be RECALLING this ‘Safety Zone burnout’ incident in Nevada that Ashcraft is reporting to the committee and he now includes HIMSELF in the notes and says there was a moment when both he and Andrew Ashcraft were RUNNING ( in Nevada ) prior to the ‘Safety Zone burnout’.
There is actually even ANOTHER ‘note’ taken by Eric Marsh himself that supports this other detail from Clayton Whitted.
On the same page where Eric Marsh wrote his note acknowledging Ashcraft’s report of the ‘Safety Zone burnout’… Eric Marsh made another handwritten note that says this…
(2) Fire in NV, pull folks out during a burn ( Good example, just included Clay instead of just him ).
‘Clay’ must be referrring to ‘Clayton Whitted’… and that supports Whitted’s own note about this where he says both he and Andrew Ashcraft ended up ‘running’ ( their asses off? ) that day in Nevada.
** SUMMARY
That might all be pretty confusing up above, but I felt it necessary to explain ( in detail ) where ALL FOUR of these NOTES were coming from with regards to this ‘Safety Zone burnout’ in Nevada being reported by Andrew Ashcraft during his job interview.
Here are the same FOUR NOTES in a shorter version just showing what each of the four committee members ‘wrote down’ at the moment Ashcraft was telling them about this ‘burnout’ in Nevada…
Remember… the QUESTION that Andrew Ashcraft was ANSWERING at this moment during his interview was that standard question number THREE…
3. Tell us about a time when you had to build your squad’s confidence during your supervisor’s absence.
———————————————————————————————-
Committee Member: Melissa Fousek
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Andrew Ashcraft
PDF page: 10
(3) Nevada – burn out safety zone. Kept a cool head. Turned out ok.
———————————————————————————————-
Comittee Member: Jesse Steed
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Andrew Ashcraft
PDF page: 7
(3) Nevada – burn out safety zone – buggies, dozer line – turned out okay.
———————————————————————————————-
Comittee Member: Eric Marsh
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Andrew Ashcraft
PDF page: 17
(3) NV, Safety Zone for buggies. ( No real specifics ).
———————————————————————————————-
Comittee Member: Clayton Whitted
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Andrew Ashcraft
PDF page: 19
(2) Line in Nevada. Me and him RUNNING.
(3) Nevada – Burn out for Buggies.
———————————————————————————————-
That concludes just Andrew Ashcraft’s interview and the story HE was telling the committee about this ‘Safety Zone burnout’ in Nevada.
But there is even more about this ‘Nevada incident’ in the ‘interview notes’.
When it was job applicant Travis Turbyfill’s turn to be interviewed by the committee for the ‘Squad Boss’ position… apparently this ‘Nevada’ incident came up AGAIN.
This time it surfaces when Travis Turbyfill was answering the standard question number FIVE which was…
5. A Squad member has a negative attitude. How do you deal with it?
Apparently… somewhere in the way Travis Turbyfill was answering this question… committee member Clayton Whitted ended up writing down THESE notes about what Turbyfill was telling them…
———————————————————————————————-
Comittee Member: Clayton Whitted
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Andrew Ashcraft
PDF page(s): 21-22
5) Nevada. Walked in drainage and walked back out.
Checked line. Worked line.
1 minute later fire cressed. Burn with little direction.
———————————————————————————————-
So NOW we have Travis Turbyfill apparently telling the committee even more about what was happening that day in Nevada.
Turbyfill seems to say that there was a ‘drainage’ involved in Nevada… and he was ‘walking’ it at some point… then resumed some ‘line’ work… but all of sudden the fire CRESTED over a RIDGE and was, apparently, buring out of control with ‘little direction’.
The notes don’t directly tie this sudden CRESTING of the fire with the other ‘Safety Zone burnout’ reports from Nevada… but it might be assumed Turbyfill is just giving his report of what HE was doing before this ’emergency situation’ developed that day in Nevada.
So now this REALLY does start to sound eerily similar to what eventually happened in Yarnell onJune 30, 2013.
According to ALL of these NOTES taken together about the Nevada incident we have Ashcraft, Whitted and Turbyfill all reporting about something that happened in Nevada involving all of the followiing…
NEVADA INCIDENT
==========================================================
Line work being done.
Dozer-line involved.
Buggies threatened.
Fire suddenly ( and unexpectedly) cresting ridge(s).
Whitted and Ashcraft RUNNING.
Drainage(s) involved.
Safety Zone BURNOUT.
Ashcraft proud he ‘kept his cool’.
Ashcraft really glad it “All worked OK in the end”.
==========================================================
See the similarities to Yarnell? ( all except for the ‘Worked out OK’ result ).
** DOES DARRELL WILLIS HAVE THE ‘UNIT LOGS’ FROM THIS NEVADA FIRE?
Since we KNOW that Darrell Willis was able to put his hands on Eric Marsh’s ‘Unit Log’ that was specific to the ‘demob’ incident ( that is now part of the public evidence record )… I wonder if Darrell Willis has ALSO kept ALL the ‘Unit Logs’ from ALL the Granite Mountain Hotshots following this assignment in Nevada and the ‘Safety Zone burnout’ that Andrew Ashcraft is saying he ‘Kept a cool head over” and it “Turned out OK in the end”.
It would be interesting to see the GM ‘Unit Logs’ from this Nevada fire assignment.
**
** CREW FIST-FIGHT BROKEN UP BY CHRISTOPHER MACKENZIE
**
There are a LOT of other things contained in these ‘interview notes’… and there isn’t time to include them all right now… but here is just something else that is ‘documented’ in these ‘interview notes’.
When the committee was interviewing Christopher MacKenzie, he told them about a fist-fight that broke out amongst the Granite Mountain crew ( during their assignment on the Mill Creek Fire ) and that he had to ‘step in and break it up’.
The question ( out of the FIVE standard questions being asked of all applicants ) that Christopher MacKenzie seemed to have been answering for the committee at this point in his interview seems to have been standard question number FOUR…
4. What is your best leadership skill?
But ONE of the committee member’s notes about this ‘fist-fight’ ( Jesse Steed’s ) seems to indicate Christopher might have been answering standard question number THREE…
3. Tell us about a time when you had to build your squad’s confidence during your supervisor’s absence.
Both Eric Marsh’s and Clayton Whitted’s NOTES establish that this ‘fist-fight’ took place when Granite Mountain was working the ‘Mill Creek’ fire.
———————————————————————————————-
Comittee Member: Melissa Fousek
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Christopher MacKenzie
PDF page: 12
(4) Few people throwing blows – blew up. Sat them down & talked through
———————————————————————————————-
Comittee Member: Jesse Steed
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Christopher MacKenzie
PDF page: 7
(3) Butt heads – throwing blows. Dominate. Went good.
———————————————————————————————-
Comittee Member: Eric Marsh
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Christopher MacKenzie
PDF page: 17
(4) Mill Creek, people butting heads, fight started, talked a guy down
to not escalate problem.
———————————————————————————————-
Comittee Member: Clayton Whitted
GM Hotshot being interviewed: Christopher MacKenzie
PDF page: 20
4) Mill Creek. A couple people butting heads and throwing blows.
Reacted. Broke up fight.
———————————————————————————————-
More about all this ( and these interview notes ) later…
Training and attitude are every thing…………..
WTKTT,
To clarify, burning out .a SZ far ahead of time is not uncommon on fires especially when the next best alternative is far away. Or in places like NV or UT rangelands when it requires it or somewhere to safely park your vehicles. However, what GMHS did on the YHF was a desperate and fatal attempt to accomplish a tactic that should have been accomplished HOUR(S) before, NOT mere minutes. Them attempting to burn out their SZ as they did looks good for the media and other ignorant public, but in reality we don’t do thatm Mere histrionics!
Reply to Robert The Second ( RTS ) post on November 20, 2014 at 10:24 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> To clarify, burning out .a SZ far ahead of time is not uncommon on
>> fires especially when the next best alternative is far away.
Absolutely. Here is a VERY relevant example….
The whole time that the Blue Ridge Hotshots ( and their buggies ) were ‘staged’ in the Sesame Clearing area on June 30, 2013 ( near original parking spot for GM buggies )… the unredacted parts of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs themselves indicate THAT was ONE of their ‘alternate plans’ for a Safety Zone.
Just burn out that ‘grassy clearing’ if push came to shove.
It wasn’t until, late in the afternoon, when Gary Cordes ‘reassigned them’ to work on that Cutover Trail that connected the Sesame clearing area and the Youth Camp that they then drove their buggies out of there and over to the Youth Camp itself. The Youth Camp was in a valley there in Harper Canyon and so just ‘burning out that area was NEVER even a remote possibility for a ‘Safety Zone’.
The minute they moved the buggies to the Youth Camp… the PRIMARY ‘escape route’ was Shrine road back to Highway 89… and the PRIMARY Safety Zone became the Ranch House Restaurant itself.
So yea… ‘Burning out to protect the buggies’ is common, accepted… and probably happens a lot.
However… that is NOT the simple explanation for what is contained in these ‘Job interview notes’ that I have just posted.
If the ONLY explanation for this ‘Burn out Safety Zone’ in Nevada was to protect the buggies… and/or it really was done ‘ahead of time’… then the only entries we would probably be seeing in the ‘interview notes’ would only say stuff like…
* Nevada – burn out safety zone.
* Nevada – burn out safety zone – buggies
* NV, Safety Zone for buggies.
* Nevada – Burn out for Buggies.
That is NOT the case.
Here are the full ( actual ) notes that appear from those interviews related to this ‘Nevada incident’… without all the ‘detail’ from above…
* Nevada – burn out safety zone. Kept a cool head. Turned out ok.
* Nevada – burn out safety zone – buggies, dozer line – turned out okay.
* NV, Safety Zone for buggies. ( No real specifics ).
* Line in Nevada. Me and him RUNNING.
* Nevada – Burn out for Buggies.
* Nevada. Walked in drainage and walked back out.
* Checked line. Worked line.
* 1 minute later fire cressed. Burn with little direction.
A simple ‘burnout ahead of time’ to provide a better spot to park some buggies does NOT explain ALL of these notes made (collectively) by Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Clayton Whitted and Melissa Fousek.
If it was just a simple advance burnout to make a better clearing for buggies… then WHY would Andrew Ashcraft be saying he was proud of himself that he “Kept a cool head” about it and was really glad it all “Worked out OK in the end”.
Also doesn’t explain Clayton Whitted’s notes about Turbyfill saying the fire only taking 1 minute ( 60 seconds ) to ‘crest a ridge’ and then his notes about he ( Clayton ) and Ashcraft having to RUN.
RUN where? WHY?
Nah. Something ELSE was going on there in Nevada.
Something ‘scary’ ( to require keeping a ‘cool head’ ).
Something unexpected ( to have to end up ‘RUNNING’ ).
Something underestimated ( to have to burn out a Safety Zone’ ).
Something lucky ( to be glad it “Worked out OK in the end’ ).
Maybe Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis really could lay his hands on some ‘Unit Logs’ from this Nevada fire… exactly the way he seemed to so easily do for the Granite Mountain ‘demob’ incident when the ADOSH investigators ASKED him to.
WTKTT,
I got your point the first time. I was merely clarifying on other times burning out SZ and/or parking areas occur. The GMHS instances and unit log comments indicate things were definitely a bit dicey in those cases cited by you.
Also, a note on Unit Logs. Unit logs are NOT required unless you’re working on a Task Book and/or your immediate supervisor requires them. Some WFF are reluctant to fill them out because of times like; they don’t want to get ‘involved.’
Reply to Robert the Second post on November 20, 2014 at 4:31 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I got your point the first time. I was merely clarifying
>> on other times burning out SZ and/or parking areas occur.
>> The GMHS instances and unit log comments indicate
>> things were definitely a bit dicey in those cases cited by you.
Copy that.
Not to hammer the point ( you get it )… but perhaps for someone else following this thread… one more point I forgot to make above.
Don’t forget the QUESTION that Andrew Ashcraft had just been asked by the ‘Recruitment Committee’ when he chose to relate this story about some ‘Safety Zone burnout’ on the Nevada fire.
The question Andrew Ashcraft was actually answering was…
3. Tell us about a time when you had to build your squad’s confidence during your supervisor’s absence.
I really doubt he would have been relating this ‘Nevada Safety Zone’ burnout story as a good answer to that question in an interview for a job he wanted with just some mundane recollection of a normal, run-of-the-mill ‘Safety Zone clearing/enlargement burn’.
He had to have chose that story because it answered the question.
He was proud he had ‘kept a cool head’ in this (apparent) emergency situation and that he also seemed to have ‘kept up the squad’s confidence’ during this (apparently) scary moment… which is why the story was a good fit for the question he was asked.
This ‘story’ about himself shows leadership… and THAT is what he was asked to supply an example of to the job interview committee.
The “Worked out OK in the end” part just seems to verify, as well, that it wasn’t a totally under-control situation and that even he might have had some doubts that whatever they were doing was going to work.
>> RTS also wrote…
>>
>>
>> Also, a note on Unit Logs. Unit logs are NOT required
>> unless you’re working on a Task Book and/or your
>> immediate supervisor requires them. Some WFF are
>> reluctant to fill them out because of times like; they
>> don’t want to get ‘involved.’
Ah… okay. Thank you for that.
The understanding I had ( I think it was Mr. Powers who outlined this some time ago ) was that the ‘Unit Log’ thing really varies from unit to unit… but the general rule is that if your supervisors are in the habit of doing them all the time, for all assignments, then the odds are that YOU will be required to do them all the time as well.
But i hear what you are saying.
It is, in fact, highly likely that after the Granite Mountain DEMOB incident… the only reason Darrell Willis knew he could produce a full ‘Unit Log’ from that fire done by Eric Marsh is that ( perhaps ) following that incident and the consternation associated with it… Wildland Division Chief Willis specifically ASKED Marsh to submit an official ‘Unit Log’ with his version of what happened.
Just a last note about this, however.
In his first ( of TWO ) ADOSH interviews held on August 19, 2013… the ADOSH investigators asked Willis if he could recall ANY time in their history that GM had to (quote) “Sit one out in the black”.
Here is exactly what Willis said in response…
———————————————————–
1454 Q2: Did they have a history, or have they ever stories, uh, of – of sitting one out in
1455 the black? Had they had that experience?
1456
1457 A: I don’t know. I’ve never heard that. Nothing that I can bring to
mind.
———————————————————–
Maybe that’s neither here not there.
Maybe Willis himself never got any ‘Unit Logs’ about the Nevada fire and/or had no idea what ever happened there.
Or maybe he did… but the incident in Nevada just wasn’t rising to meet the criteria of the question he was just asked with regards to “sitting one out in the black”.
Maybe if ADOSH had asked Willis “Do you know if they had ever tried to burn out their Safety Zone under emergency conditions before?” he might have actually recalled ‘Nevada’.
WTKTT,
I understand and agree with your ‘Nevada Safety Zone’ burnout story assessment. And even though it all worked out okay in the end albeit very shaky, “it wasn’t a totally under-control situation and that even he might have had some doubts that whatever they were doing was going to work.” Agreed!
And regarding the ‘ Granite Mountain DEMOB incident’ you’re likely correct that the ONLY reason a unit log was filled out was because Willis requested it. And likely correct as well regarding asking the NV SZ question directly, instead of counting on Willis’ recall and/or memory.
I wish ADOSH hadn’t actually been that specific with THEIR request to the City of Prescott for ‘documentation’ concerning that one ‘demob’ incident.
I wish ADOSH had ( at that time ) requested copies of ALL Granite Mountain ‘Unit Logs’ or AARs ( After Action Reports ) that the Prescott Wildland Division ( Sic: Willis ) had/have in their possession.
Calvin,
Finally getting around to responding to your 18 November post. You said “Your comments concerning people that are dead are at the minimum, disturbing and unnecessary.” I ALLEGE from here on down, Yes and No both. DISTURBING, absolutely! It is the most disturbing tragedy in WFF history. And yet it was totally predictable and therefore totally preventable. There are a lot of us that are still very angry about what happened because it was totally preventable. And also distrubing because it was “The final fatal link in a long chain of bad decisions with good outcomes. We saw this coming for years” said one veteran WFF supervisor. My comments are accurate and they are necessary. These WFF are dead because of their supervisor’s persistent habit of bad decisions and prior good outcomes. I suggest that GROUPTHINK plagued the GMHS when the options were being discussed and the order was given to leave the black. And NOBODY said anything, NOBODY questioned this order? And then there’s Brendan Donough’s statement that F/O 10 “Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first” was “old” and “hillbilly” and “we’re much smarter than that.” Really? Your “smarter-than-that” Crew was so smart that 19 of them died from NOT following the 10 Standard F/O and at a minimum, NOT posting a Lookout to warn them of impending danger when they left their perfectly good S/Z.. Violations of the F/O and LCES.
“The proof that GM were reckless, based on the premise that they rolled their sleeves up has been proven to be absolute bullshit.” NEGATIVE! It has NOT been proven, only weakly postulated by Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy and some other that are inexperienced and/or clueless in WFF. The rolled up sleeves is definitely a hazardous ATTITUDE that leads to other bad decisions with good outcomes. It’s just like driving you car and removing your seatbelt when you’re close to home. The ‘Rule of 99’. The Normalization of Deviance, normalizing deviant behaviors and attitudes, however you want to phrase it., it’s the same thing.
:”If you have any REAL proof show it.” The facts are there already,Those 19 men died needlessly. Many of those men were friends of mine and I helped train several of them. THEY KNEW BETTER! And I grieve daily for their family friends and loved ones. WE MUST DELVE INTO THE SPECIFICS, THE HUMAN FACTORS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR DEATHS. The SAIT ignored Human Factors and you will NOT find a chapter of section on Human Factors in the SAIR, only a recommendation to the State of AZ to look into human factors. as follows:
“5. The Team recommends that the State of Arizona request the NWCG and/or Wildland Fire Leadership Council (WFLC) to charter a team of interagency wildland fire and human factors experts to conduct further analysis of this event and the wildland fire communications environment.”
The SAIT further referenced Human Factors as follows:
“Some Questions for Researchers in Human Factors, Organizations, Fire Behavior, etc.
• How might emotion trigger “automatic” movement, and how can we interrupt this circuit to engage in reflection that leads to more purposeful action?
• How might firefighters stay alert to changing conditions when message repetition might encourage desensitization (e.g., working in day after day of extremely hot weather and low humidity with thunderstorms predicted)?”
Really? We already have ALL of this. The GMHS had the BEST lookout site of anyone on the entire YH Fire, the GMHS had the BEST SZ of anyone on the entire YH Fire. The BRHS and others in nthe various subdivisions and unburned fuel beds had marginal Safety Zones, spot fires, active and increasing fire behavior, propane tanks blowing up, and ALL the other associated WUI hazards and they fared okay by following the WFF Rules.
We owe it to them and all WFF and their family, friends, and loved ones. “Otherwise, You are the Fucking liar!” Negative, merely your opinion. The State Forestry, The IMT, the weather, the WFF culture, the whatever else people are blaming their deaths on are NOT the cause. The cause was HUMAN FACTORS alone. This was a similar reaction when the 1994 South Canyon Fire killed 14 WFF. No one wanted to discuss Human Factors “because they were are friends.”
The SAIT went so far as to discourage us looking into the Human Factors responsible for the YH Fire fatalities by posting the following on ‘Hindsight Bias:”
‘The term “hindsight bias” refers to the tendency people have to view past events as more predictable than they really were before the events took place. After an event occurs, people often believe they could have predicted the outcome of the event before it actually happened.” This statement is pure feculence! The GMHS supervisors knew better and/or should have known better, they could/should have ‘predicted the outcome’
Brendan McDonough said “No, I never question the decisions they’ve made … I never questioned them before, why should I question them now? It’s not their fault. Wasn’t a bad decision.” REALLY? Never question them …? REALLY? These statements definitely suggest GROUPTHINK, a hazardous attitude. “Wasn’t a bad decision.” Really again? They are in a perfectly good SZ all day and made a GOOD decision to leave and travel into the unburned down through a chimney and then into a bowl? NO, this was a BAD decision Brendan.! A bad decision predicated on prior bad decisions with good outcomes. Some refer to it as the”Rule of 99.’ You get away with somethjng 99 times and then the 100th time ….
I say Brendan did NOT come up with this ‘hillbilly’ statement on his own. He either heard others talking about it often enough and/or he was ‘coached’ on this bizarre ‘hillbilly’ statement.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY.
AMEN——————————————————————
Reply to Robert the Second post on November 19, 2014 at 9:41 pm
>> Robert the Second said…
>>
>> This was a BAD decision Brendan.! A bad decision predicated on prior
>> bad decisions with good outcomes. Some refer to it as the”Rule of 99.’
>> You get away with somethjng 99 times and then the 100th time ….
See the LONG post just above this one that I was submitting just about the same time as yours.
The title of my post is…
** YARNELL WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME GRANITE MOUNTAIN
** ATTEMPTED TO BURN OUT THEIR OWN SAFETY ZONE
As it turns out… there has ALWAYS been a publicly available document that proves something pretty scary happened with this crew on a fire in Nevada… and it all seems EERILY SIMILAR to what ‘got them’ in Yarnell.
The document contains ‘job interview’ notes from when they were trying to replace former GM Squad Boss Philip Maldonado with one of the existing GM Hotshots.
The ‘interviewers’ ( in March of 2013, just a few months before Yarnell ) were Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Clayton Whitted and Melissa Fousek ( a Prescott Human Resources person ).
All of these interviewers were taking handwritten NOTES during interviews with…
Andrew Ashcraft
Christopher MacKenzie
Travis Turbyfill
Robert Caldwell
Caldwell got the job and replaced Philip Maldonado… but what ‘came out’ during these interviews ( and got recorded in the interviewer’s handwritten notes ) is fascinating… and IMPORTANT with regards to possible proof of ‘previous bad decisions with good outcomes’.
According to ALL of these NOTES taken together about the Nevada incident we have Ashcraft, Whitted and Turbyfill all reporting about something that happened in Nevada involving all of the followiing…
NEVADA INCIDENT
==========================================================
Line work being done.
Dozer-line involved.
Buggies threatened.
Fire suddenly ( and unexpectedly) cresting ridge(s).
Whitted and Ashcraft RUNNING.
Drainage(s) involved.
Safety Zone BURNOUT.
Ashcraft proud he ‘kept his cool’.
Ashcraft really glad it “All worked OK in the end”.
==========================================================
See the similarities to Yarnell? ( all except for the ‘Worked out OK’ result ).
More needs to be learned about this ‘Nevada Incident’.
From Clayton Whitted’s testimony alone it appears they might have gotten into ‘deep tapioca’ in Nevada because they didn’t have a LOOKOUT in place while working.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I say Brendan did NOT come up with this ‘hillbilly’ statement on his own.
>> He either heard others talking about it often enough and/or he
>> was ‘coached’ on this bizarre ‘hillbilly’ statement.
I pretty much agree with everything you said above… but especially this.
It has ALWAYS sounded like just regurgitated ‘campfire talk’. from a 2 year newbie.
So the question should be…
How many OTHER ( current / certified ) crews are out there actively thinking they are
“Smarter than any old stupid fire”.
Hopefully None That’s why Safety Officers Division Supervisors and OPS should always be evaluating all crews not just Hot Shots. But it is a good question….
Did not find it yet Sonny but want to mention…
(h t t p :/ / youtu.be / IaNp2PvQ2og)
Brendan said :
asked a million times, why am I sitting here and why isn’t someone else…why aren’t they sitting here with me?”
BECAUSE DONUT YOU NEED TO BE ALIVE TO HELP PIECE THIS TOGETHER PUBLICLY!!!!
Willis says: (2:17 mark) They are all excited, they are going to a fire…it’s their day off and they are excited to work on their day off because they are going to make some overtime. HA HA HA HA!!! I SHARE A DIFFERENT VIEW THERE ON THEIR EXCITEMENT!
Jesse Steed- Donut’s Captain last spoke to Donut states on video—Brendan said whatever you need I am here. YOU ARE RIGHT DONUT YOU ARE HERE—STILL HERE AND THEY ARE NOT—START BEING RAW AND REAL AND SHARE THAT DAY!
Good Question at 4:18 mark and you see body language change for Donut and they edit out on that area. He answers it was not their fault- it wasn’t a bad decision THAN WHAT WAS IT DONUT????
At 6:05 mark they mention 19 confirmed so can someone lead me to HIS interview the paramedic that stated that on radio communication in the SAIR and or OSHA interviews. Was he interviewed?
Reply to Joy A Collura post on November 19, 2014 at 1:18 pm
>> Joy said…
>>
>> At 6:05 mark they mention 19 confirmed so can someone lead me
>> to HIS interview the paramedic that stated that on radio communication
>> in the SAIR and or OSHA interviews. Was he interviewed?
Yavapai County DPS Officer / Paramedic Eric Tarr was the first person to arrive at the deployment site following the burnover.
His signed deposition is in the “Law Enforcement” folder of the online Dropbox.
Here is a direct link to that document.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACAJw7LFDphqJD1UcTsu6kPa/Law%20Enforcement/M-%20Law%20Enforcement%20-%20no%20redactions.pdf?dl=0
At NO time was DPS Officer Tarr ‘confused’ about how many bodies were lying there at the deployment site.
His initial VISUAL count on first arrival was 19… and he reported that right away… and then he VERIFIED his own count again and the answer was correct. 19 bodies all together there at the deployment site.
From DPS Officer Eric Tarr’s signed deposition…
————————————————————————
We ( Ranger 58 DPS Helicopter ) began searching toward the Ranch house from the ridgeline when I located a group of deployed fire shelters off the nose of the aircraft at approximately 1810 hours. I directed the pilot to the location of the fire shelters where we circled at low altitude. We attempted twice to land closer to the scene but the area was still hot with too much blowing ash and dust to land safely.
————————————————————————
NOTE: In this part of Eric Tarr’s testimony is where we hear about the ‘circling at low altitude’ and the TWO attempts to actually LAND the helicopter right near the deployment site. Both of these things ( the circling and the landing attempts ) could have caused a lot of the fire shelters to ‘blow off’ the men. These men were not stopping to take any pictures at this point so we will probably never have a good photo of the deployment site as it looked BEFORE the Ranger 58 did this ‘low altitude circling’ and/or the TWO attempts to land right near it.
——————————————————————-
I advised Air Attack ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark in Bravo 3, at that point ) that we had located a group of multiple fire shelters with no movement or signs of visible life. I also gave Air Attack ( Bravo 3 ) the GPS coordinates for the location of the shelters Ranger 58 was approaching our minimum for fuel at this point and located a safe landing zone, Scene LZ, approximately 500 yards from the shelters where we landed at approximately 181 hours. I exited the aircraft north of the scene and hiked to the deployed shelters to start triage and medical treatment as Ranger 58 returned to LZ 3 for additional fuel. Officer Main stayed on board Ranger 58 in case I found survivors so we could start short haul out or bring back additional resources and equipment as needed.
I approached the the site where the shelters had been deployed from at approximately 1825 hours. I approached this site from north to south. The ground around the deployment site was black and crusted with no visible vegetation and only occasional black branches sticking out of the ground. I can best describe the area as a moonscape appearance.
Around the site I observed a chain saw that had only metal left on it just north of the bodies. I saw a pick ax head with the handle completely gone this was also just north of the bodies. I observed what appeared to be the remnants of several packs and their contents around the site. There was also what appeared to be several fuel bottles laying scattered around the site.
As I got closer to the site I could hear voices coming the area of the shelters. I yelled up to the shelters repeatedly but received no response. As I approached the shelters I observed multiple Firefighters who were obviously deceased and burnt black, I had not seen this from the air, but had been advised by Officer Main he had seen what appeared to (be) bodies at the site from the air. I walked into the shelter deployment site and determined that the voices I had heard were coming from still functioning radios.
The majority of the Firefighters were obviously deceased and burned extensively lying outside of their shelters in various positions. I was not able to transmit out on my portable radio to anyone on A/G 16 after multiple attempts so I advised my DPS dispatcher on DPS frequency Metro West that I had 19 confirmed fatalities and to relay that to fire Command. This was at approximately 1835 hours.
————————————————————————————
So… as you can see right there… DPS Medic Eric Tarr was NEVER confused about how many bodies were right there ( all together ) at the deployment site… not even when he FIRST walked up to it, did his initial count, and then called his DPS dispatcher right away to report ’19 fatalities’. He was SURE there were 19 from even his very first count after arriving on the scene.
That is what his own signed deposition says.
Eric Tarr goes on to say he then CONFIRMS even his own initial count of 19.
————————————————————————-
There were approximately 5 fire shelters that appeared to be intact which had Firefighters still under them. I was not able to get a response from any of the intact shelters. At this time I observed a Firefighter appear on the ridgeline to the southwest.
————————————————————————-
NOTE: That ‘Firefighter’ appearing up on the western ridge at this time and right around GM’s original ‘Descent Point’ was Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown.
————————————————————————-
He had 3 other Firefighters with him; I believe these were the same Firefighters from the quads who we had directed to the yellow packs earlier.
————————————————————————-
NOTE: There were actually 4 other FFs up there now at the ‘Descent Point’ along with Captain Brown.They were Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and the three Prescott National Forest ‘off-the-radar’ hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell. They were ALL arriving up there at the ‘Descent Point’ from the NORTH by the ‘anchor point’ where they had originally started looking for Granite Mountain.
————————————————————————–
I made contact with them and showed them where the scene was.
————————————————————————–
NOTE: This is now when Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown basically THREW himself down that drainage from the ‘Descent Point’ and made the entire trip ( on foot ) down to the deployment site in just something between 5 minutes and 30 seconds and 6 minutes. This was all recorded by the GPS unit Captain Brown was wearing.
————————————————————————–
I went back into the middle of the deployment site and raised each of the intact looking fire shelters from east to west and confirmed that each Firefighter who was inside was deceased. Each of them appeared similar with obvious rigor and no breathing or signs of life. I rolled the Firefighters back into their original position after checking them for signs of life. I double checked my count and confirmed there were 19 deceased Firefighters at this scene and 19 fire shelters.
————————————————————————–
So there it is.
Not only was Eric Tarr’s very first ‘count’ upon arriving at the scene a full 19 souls… his immediate attempt to VERIFY his own count was also 19. No question.
The ONLY time this started to get confusing is when the other firefighters started arriving and the ‘Granite Mountain’ manifest entered into the picture.
The GM Manifest was KNOWN to be ‘1 short’ that day and was only listing 18 firefighters.
John J. Percin’s name was actually MISSING from the GM Mainfest that day and it took a while to figure this out… but there was never really any doubt that there were actually 19 bodies lying together right there at the deployment site.
My purpose here on JD’s page is not just gather photos/videos and tell people of hikes and such but to review and propose to legislation or other policy changes related to wildfire prevention, mitigation, and related matters, including public safety and forest health issues, local Firefighter Safety Grant Programs, Wildland Firefighters Death Benefit Payments may they be part time or seasonal, corrections to Prescribed Burning Program Laws, Honor Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots, land management practices, wildfire Insurance and Forest Health Tax Force, public Access to wildfire-related information that should not be kept to the higher ups, Firefighting aircrafts MUST publicly record all events from the air for the public to view, prohibit or restrict the ability of agricultural producers to conduct burning on their properties during periods when red flag warnings or fire weather watches have been issued by the National Weather Service, and do not MAGICALLY vanish the satellite imagery that was once available online to now you cannot see it.
Sony, I am in middle of something so let me do that and if you are still typing away then I will search for it—
To answer Wants To Know the Truth: -Referring to the Donut clip: Joy will look for that clip on national news and post it where people can go to it. She showed it to me some time ago and so it was strange to me he would say something like that– she says I did not say it exactly right so best go to the source. Seems he changed his tune lately though and is coming forward with a lawyer ation after all. Would be good for his conscience to come clean.
Thank you, sonny.
I remember the ABC news interview with Brendan McDonough about a month after after the tragedy ( on August 7, 2013 ) when he consented to be interviewed on-camera by famous ABC news reporter Brian Ross.
That’s the one where Brian Ross confirmed with Brendan that the reason he decided to abandon his lookout position was because the fire was charging right at him and it was too dangerous to remain where he was.
Then Brian Ross asked McDonough if he thought the others ( the rest of Granite Mountain ) should have been realizing the same thing and evacuating the area at that same moment ( As early as 3:42 pm when Brendan knew it was already too dangerous to stay out there in harm’s way ).
Brendan immediately leaned back in his chair, put both of his hands behind his head, took a LONG pause… and then just said…
Brendan McDonough: “That’s not something… ( long pause ). That’s not my decision.”
Brian Ross: Do you ever wonder about that?
Brendan McDonough: No, I never question the decisions they’ve made,” he said, seated in the ready room beneath crossed axes affixed to one wall. “I never questioned them before, why should I question them now? It’s not their fault. Wasn’t a bad decision.
That full interview is still here online…
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/brendan-mcdonough-sole-survivor-arizona-hotshot-firefighting-tragedy/story?id=19881553&singlePage=true
I also remember him saying in the other online interviews with AZREPUBLIC… that he would ‘always step up and defend the decisions they made’…
…but I simply don’t recall ever seeing a public interview where he actually said…
“…and the truth will die with me”
…or something like that.
If you could find the link to that interview… I’d appreciate it.
when I am at the library I can if allotted search for it yet like I said to Sonny that was not Donut’s exact words.
Thanks, Joy.
BTW… I should have qualified something above.
It was ONLY August 7, 2013 ( little over a month since the tragedy ) when that interview took place.
There was no SAIR report yet. That was months away.
A lot of people ( even savvy news reporters ) still did NOT know this whole thing about ‘the black’ on a fire and how that is actually the SAFEST place to be.
A lot of people ( Brian Ross included ) just still seemed to have that question in their minds that if the LOOKOUT for this group of men knew it was time to ‘get the hell out of dodge’ because the fire was charging right at him… then why didn’t the OTHER men ( who he was supposedly being a lookout FOR ) make a similar decision at the same exact time ( as early as 3:40 PM ).
It still wasn’t generally known ( even on August 7, 2013 ) that there was a HUGE amount of ‘cold black’ right there where the other 19 were… and ‘getting the hell out of dodge’ for THEM simply meant ‘stepping over into the black’.
This, IMHO, is why a person should not be assigned Lookout, just because he’s a bit under the weather.
From everything I’ve read and seen, a true Lookout should be one of the most experienced members of the crew. This is not hindsight.
Somebody with the experience to MAKE A JUDGEMENT CALL needs to be MAKING JUDGEMENT CALLS. Can’t ORDER a crewleader, but CAN do some serious and authoritative ADVISING.
And should have, IMHO, kept on doing that even after he left that geographical position.
Absolutly
I just want to start out by saying that I appreciate all of the research, comments, and hard work that a lot of you are doing. WTKTT, RTS, Marti & Bob it sounds like you have many years of fire experience and I truly look forward to you analysis and comments. Over the last two weeks I have noticed that Elizabeth is just a mad woman calling everyone out and making all kinds of crazy comments. It would be nice if we didn’t have to waste the comment space with her Jibberish and rude behavior. That’s all I have on that.
I have been following the comment thread for a while, this is my first comment and analysis. I have been watching the newly released video’s and I am going to ask a couple of things that I have noticed. Any insight is appreciated. I am sorry if I am all over the place. I will try to keep it organized.
-#1 Video MU00264 at around :44 seconds video man A. Hulburd overhears something on the radio, he states “Granite Mountain?” There is a lot of back round noise-engine running and others talking. Not sure what he heard at this point in time. Could it of been-Granite Mountain Reporting that they were in the Black? In the initial released video MU00265 after the Caldwell Mayday call Hulburd asks, “Is Granite Mtn is still in there?” It sounds like Jason Clawson states, “Well they are in their safety zone. The Black.” Just a guess that is what he heard at that point?
-#2 The end of Video MU00264 shows Bucky Yowell’s Arm come into view and is on the side of Hulburd where MU00265 video starts, but when Hulburd turns to the opposite side at :11 int0 MU00265 that is where Yowell and Clawson are. Where I am getting at with this, is how much time elapsed between MU00264 and MU00265. I want to say a whole lot more than two minutes, there is a lot of things going on at the end of MU00264,. Is it established that this is a retracted video? I know the letter that came with the video said that one of the videos had to be retracted to protect a phone number, is this the video that was retracted for that? Also in video MU00266R around 3:35 Hulburd explains to Yowell that he shut off the camera for 2 or 3 minutes. Could it be that he shut it off at the intermission between MU00264 and MU00265.
-#3 In video MU00271 when Blue Ridge Supt. and Captain are explaining the last known location and what they new of Granite Mountain to Yowell, Clawson, and Hulburd. It seems like Yowell, Clawson, and Hulburd are listening and are not adding to the conversation. My assumption is that the Prescott guys didn’t hear anything on the radios that would help solve some mysteries. In video MU00266R Yowell asks Hulburd why GMHS would deploy and Hulburd never makes a statement like-“well I Heard Eric say he was bringing the crew to the BSR on a two track road.” Through out the longer videos there are moments when guys could say something on what they heard, but nothing is ever stated. These guys thought that GMHS crew members bumped the buggies off the hill. I think they had just as little info as anyone on what GMHS intentions were. Now that being said, Frisby had a GMHS radio (McDonough’s portable), two BRHS had access to the GMHS crew frequencies from the Buggies, and of course McDonough had access through the SUPT truck radio. Everyone who keeps up with these comment threads knows that. Do they know a lot more of what was happening on the hill than anyone else? That answer is more than likely yes. Are we ever going to know? Maybe in about 20 years the NIFC will put together a nice 1.5 hour documentary (like the one for the South Canyon Fire this year), then everyone will want to tell their story or will be able to tell there side of things.
-#4 Why are the videos broken into so many different pieces? I understand that there were retractions that were needed, but to me it still doesn’t piece together correctly. There was no way to keep the whole video together and retract by muting the retractions or blacking out the views? By my count Hulburd turned the camera off twice-one mystery turnoff which he stated he did in MU00266R and at the end of MU00266R he states he is turning it off. Mybe my math is off but there should only be 3 separate videos? Or I don’t understand how the videos are saved?
My brain is spinning, so I am calling it quits there. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
Reply to ‘Super Pete’ post on November 19, 2014 at 9:46 am
Thank you for contributing to this ongoing discussion.
These are GOOD observations and GOOD questions, all, and I ( for one ) am working on a long answer for your. Watch the TOP of this chapter for a longer response.
I just didn’t want you to think this got ‘missed’. ( It didn’t ) or is being ignored ( it’s not ).
More later… and thanks again.
Somehow I missed seeing this comment. Sorry.
And yes, I’m certain WTKTT will respond in as much detail as he can, and so will I. Your questions are VERY important.
What you are asking about is directly related to why we spent such INORDINATE amounts of time last week talking back and forth about the cellphone videos.
We don’t know what or how much the USFS actually redacted/edited/whatever of the videos Aaron gave them. And we don’t have any reason to believe a word they have said about any of this, all things considered.
So, first of all, in order to begin figuring out what they may have “chopped up” and published, we need to discern what cameras Aaron was using and what capabilities they had, and what kinds of files they could produce.
We spent an INORDINATE amount of time on that cellphone, because those three files looked kind of “sketchy.”
And I wrote at the end of that “And we haven’t even begun to look at the videos he took with the Sony”–i.e the camera he used to capture the M2U videos, the ones you are asking about.
Personally, IMHO, I think all those video files have been “chopped” by somebody. Because they don’t make sense.
But, first we had to explore and figure out what kind of camera he was using for them. At first I thought it was the kind of “action cam” that had a remote controller, so he didn’t have to hassle with turning it on and off using his hands on the cam in the middle of all the chaos he was filming.
But that didn’t work, because he was zooming in and out, and those kinds of cams don’t zoom.
So I finally figured out he was using a Sony. You actually have to control that camera with your hands on it.
Which actually supports my idea that I think those videos have been “chopped up” by somebody in post-processing. It just would have been a total PITA for him to have been doing all that “turn on” “turn off” stuff so quickly during all that time, given everything else that was going on at that time.
And I think the key video is the one in which Frisby is telling the Three Prescotteers about what GM was doing and what he “knew” about about that. There is just no way Aaron would have turned off that cam when the video ends. It just doesn’t make sense.
I’m not looking at these videos right now as I’m writing this, but the other one I was thinking about earlier today, as I was doing something else, is that one where one asks “how long ago was that??” and the answer is something like “twenty minutes ago??” Since there is, no way, twenty minutes between the “Mayday video” and this one, I started thinking, hmmmm, is it possible there’s a whole bunch of video missing here?
I understand that, during really intense experiences like this, one’s sense of time gets all weird and plastic, one shouldn’t expect these guys to be talking about time all that accurately. But twenty minutes is a bit of a chunk of time. So there’s that.
I really do believe there’s been a whole lot more “redacting” on the part of someone of these videos. And I have more reason to believe that redacting was done by the US Forest Service than by Aaron Hulburd. Especially given the “back-alley” way the US Forest Service, apparently released them, now, as one of the moms said, “Why now??? Why not a year and a half ago??”
Thanks for joining in and asking these very important questions!!
Marti… wanted to post this up here so you would see it.
There is also a very important ‘frames per second match’ with the Nokia you found.
From the Nokia review you posted below…
———————————-
As noted, one of the 3620’s major selling points is the built-in VGA (640×480 resolution) digital camera and video recorder. You can take pictures at the highest resolution of 176×208 pixels in three different modes: up to 300 images in Portrait, 18 pics with Night, or 15 shots in Standard. In video mode, you can record up to 95K of footage at 15 frames per second. The video isn’t exactly smooth, and you get only 30 seconds of playback, but it’s a nice novelty.
———————————-
Things to note….
* You can shoot up to 95K of video… but you will (apparently)
only get 30 seconds of playback ( for each video shot? )
* Video frame rate is, in fact, just 15 frames per second.
* If one of the ‘modes’ available is 176×144… then that’s also a match.
Some of the EXIF contained in all THREE of the 063013153x.3g2 videos…
Source Image Width: 176
Source Image Height: 144
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Bit Depth: 24
Video Frame Rate: 15
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Time Scale: 8000
Media Duration: 29.80 s
Also another thought…
The Model Creek Road burnout videos were shot ( by Hulburd, it seems ) just after the ‘Prescotteers’ arrived in Peeples Valley. Clawson must have contacted Willis to see where he was and they then unloaded their UTVs and high-tailed it up to Model Creek road.
Maybe Hulburd left his Helmet Cam ( or whatever it was ) in the truck… and when they got up there he saw something really cool happening ( a burnout! ) and he filmed it with whatever else he had. I think if he had had something with him capable of better video… he would have used it instead. Any true-blue videophile would have.
More later…
Actually… the 15 frames per second value helps to ‘date’ this device just as much as the 3GP version indicator.
15 fps is ancient… and hardly qualifies as ‘watchable video’.
Yes, yes, and more yesses.
The 15 fps is on the metadata I’m seeing via VideoSpec. VideoSpic doesn’t show as much metadata as what you are using, but more than LIghtroom or Bridge.
And I caught all that about that longer but of less quality video being 29-ish seconds long. And I thought, OK, that explains that.
So, ICYMI, I looked a bunch more relevant phones, after reading what you wrote about the standard being 2003 thru 2005..
Came to the conclusion it still WAS a Nokia, because of the network designation. And Nokia’s huge share of that market.
And saw there were a bunch more similar Nokia phones produced during that time period.
Maybe this particular low quality video setting peters out somewhere in those increasingly “better” phones. Although this phone is STILL really one of the most popular “vintage” Nokias.
I really don’t have a lot more time to follow this particular hunt. I need to get Joy’s photos done, and I have a lot on my plate IRL right now.
Thanks for all your help!
Do you have ANY idea WHY the phone name/model would NOT appear in the metadata???
I have photos going back to 2004 that show the camera, and also videos from cameras and videos from cellphones pretty far back that tell me that, at least if I have the video in its original format.
As a matter of fact, with that being the case, I have to admit I really don’t understand why the Sony videos don’t show the camera name metadata. I doubt that it’s THAT old of a camera.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 19, 2014 at 3:55 pm
>> Marti asked…
>>
>> Do you have ANY idea WHY the phone name/model
>> would NOT appear in the metadata???
It’s actually pretty simple… it wasn’t really part of the SPEC yet.
That’s why it’s unfortunate to discover there are ‘older’ devices.
Early on… the protocol specifications weren’t even concerned with DEVICE information such as Make / Model. The engineers just hadn’t considered that to be important information to simply define a ‘video stream’.
It wasn’t until all this crap started to proliferate and go full street-level retail that they realized “Oh shit… we FORGOT something!”
Later versions of the protocols started adding ‘data fields’ for all kinds of things the engineers didn’t think were important to know at first.
Even NOW… SOME of these puppies will only add that information to still photos ( JPEG, GIF, etc. ) and NOT to video stream files ( .MOV, .AVI, .MPG, .3PG, etc. ).
It is not REQUIRED to add that information to the EXIF data.
It has only EVOLVED where they all ‘do what the Jones’ do and we are still transitioning with the protocols from it never being there at all to being REQUIRED to be there.
Engineers move slow. It takes them a while to ‘catch on’, most of the time.
Regarding WHY Hulburd was using this ‘older camera’ on Model Creek.
I actually believe the only reason they were dashing up there to Model Creek Road was not to really get involved with the operation… it was because that’s where Darrell Willis was.
I believe Jason Clawson called Darrell Willis with his cellphone just after arriving to get the 411 on the situation… and to find out how to get a radio clone. Willis probably told Clawson he was there on Model Creek Road directing that burnout… where that was… and how to get there in relation to the ICP where they had just parked.
So I think they all unloaded their UTVs and dashed up there just to get a radio clone from Willis.
Willis was actually the one giving a ‘radio clone’ to just about everyone arriving from Prescott ( Tony Sciacca got his radio clone from Willis as well ).
There WAS a designated COMS Officer at the ICP by now ( McMillan ) but photos of him just show him standing around by his truck doing nothing at all even after he got there.
So I think for the folks from Prescott… they were all treating Darrell Willis as not only their ‘primary contact’ for this fire… they were also treating Willis as ‘COMS Officer’ once they got there and getting their radio clones from him.
So I believe Hulburd didn’t know they were going to come across this really COOL ‘burnout’ operation in progress up there. He thought they were just dashing up their for their radio clones and he left his GOOD camera back in the pickup truck.
If we EVER get to see any ‘Unit Logs’ or actual INTERVIEWS with any of these “Prescotteers”… I believe the story will go something like that.
I have photos going back to 2004 that show the camera, and also videos from cameras and videos from cellphones pretty far back that tell me that, at least if I have the video in its original format.
As a matter of fact, with that being the case, I have to admit I really don’t understand why the Sony videos don’t show the camera name metadata. I doubt that it’s THAT old of a camera.
Whoops… the LAST TWO paragraphs above were carried over from Marti’s original message and not meant to be part of my response.
Sorry about that.
My response ( up above ) was actually meant to END with this…
If we EVER get to see any ‘Unit Logs’ or actual INTERVIEWS with any of these “Prescotteers”… I believe the story will go something like that.
So. I spent several hours this afternoon/evening still searching for THE cellphone.
It gets really complicated because Nokia was really cranking out new models of these early video-equipped cellphones throughout 2004. By June they had one that could record an hour of video in that EXTREMELY POPULAR 176×144 15fps QCIF format.
And, actually, it’s not an antique format. It was still being used A LOT as late as 2012.
Because it was made to be viewed on tiny cellphone displays. It didn’t need to be high res or really smooth. It needed to require as little memory as possible and transmit as quickly as possible.
I’m thinking it’s not til people started using things like ipads as mobile devices that higher resolutions and faster fps settings started being more useful and more in demand in mobile devices. That combined with YouTube, whether watched on an iPad, a computer, and then retina displays. I think the expectation that cellphones take awesome video is really relatively recent.
And since I don’t have a smartphone, I’m really unfamiliar with this stuff.
I’ve found conflicting information about the Nokia we’ve been looking at. The Users Manual says it’s just capable of producing short 10-second VGA video, and several sets of specs I’ve seen on it just show it as shooting VGA only. Another set of specs I’ve seen show it shooting VGA and QCIF (174×144). It would have to be able to shoot QCIF in order to produce the 30 second video that reviewer is talking about. So I just don’t know.
But easily by mid-2004 they seem to have been pumping out phones that could shoot more different kinds and lengths and qualities of videos.
The 10-second videos were used A LOT in early messaging. And then more and more 30-second low resolution videos were also used. But, from all kinds of forums I looked at, that 15 fps standard (that everybody now goes “What??????? to ) was considered totally acceptable.
So, unless someone wants to spend an inordinate amount of time searching for this exact phone, I think it’s gonna be really hard to find this specific one. And even then, they’ll probably end up in the weeds.
We have a bunch of 30 second QCIF videos, probably one setting among others (unless there’s a Nokia that has ONLY that for its video), and I think that indicates a later model. Which one? I have no idea, at this point.
The thing my mind keeps circling around now is the file-naming.
The User’s Manual, when it talks about file-naming, doesn’t mention anything in its protocol that would include using the time-stamp automatically as a file name.
All it says you can do as an automated option is to create a default name and the software will call it something like canyon (01), canyon (02), canyon (03).
I have no idea when Nokia produced a cellphone in this 2003-thru-2005 series that would automate file-naming based on year/month/day/time like these show. Or even if they did. And I have no clue, other than looking at a bunch of User Manuals, how to discover that. And I’ve noticed that the User Manuals I’ve looked at seem to include less and less of that kind of information as they proceed.
And I believe that file-naming might be the most important thing to try to find, if we’re wondering about what the USFS might have been doing to these files.
And, actually, what you already wrote, WTKTT, about what you were finding about those file-names (altho I need to go back and re-read it becuz I was fixated on other stuff when I read it) may already be adequate for an anchor on the possibility/probability that the USFS was messing with these files. I really question the file-naming.
And thanks for the thoughts on why the camera info might not have been included in the metadata. I wasn’t thinking about how someone had to determine to write that into the metadata. Somehow I was assuming that stuff just “happened.”
So what I learned today (a quick compendium of a rambling thread I wrote down below as I was exploring things related to the cameras Aaron Hulburd was most likely using on the Yarnell Hill Fire).
Regarding the “helmet cam” he was using in the Last MInutes video and the ones before and after it.
It was most likely a Sony cam, give its extremely high image quality–due to its Carl Zeiss lens–and it’s highly refined zoom imagery, which no other “action cams” on the market either then or now are capable of.
It’s not “technically” a helmet cam. But, actually, nothing out there is “technically” a helmet cam. There are all kinds of
“action videocams” out there that have various ways of being either attached to a helmet or attached to virtually anything else.
Something like this:
Sony – Cyber-Shot Shock+Waterproof Camera Orange+32GB+Helmet+Handlebar Mounts+Batt+Case+Flex Tripod+Acc Kit – Orange
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cyber-shot-shock-waterproof-camera-orange-32gb-helmet-handlebar-mounts-batt-case-flex-tripod-acc-kit-orange/1311290807.p?id=mp1311290807&skuId=1311290807
This camera would have required more “hands on” control than we have been thinking of, but its image quality might have been, in Aaron’s opinion, generally worth it.
Regarding the first three videos in the series, which are of the Model Creek Road burnout, I think he was using a 2003 Nokia 3620 cellphone. Because of the fact that the files it produced (3GPP2 Media with the file extension .3g2) indicated a 2003 cellphone camera.
As WTKTT wrote early this morning at 12:26 AM:
“The following piece of EXIF data actually dates the camera.
This version C.S0050-0 V1.0 of the 3GP video format dates back to 2003…
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
The following field seems to verify the AGE of this device as circa 2003 since it ONLY lists a 3GPP ‘compatibility’ mode with the older V1.0 version. If it was a more modern 3GPP capable device it would be listing additional ‘Compatible Brands’ like ‘3g2b’ and ‘3g2c’. ( in addition to the early 3g2a version )…”
The only other cellphones capable of recording this kind of video in 2003 were an earlier Nokia (with a much less capable display) and a Sony with, again, a much less capable display. However, we have no metadata-related proof of exactly which one of these cellphones he was using But it was one of those three earliest cellphones capable of shooting video with the purpose of putting it up to the Internet quickly and efficiently, and, thus, keeping the files small. There was nothing else on the cellphone market in 2003 capable of capturing video.
The problem is that these video files were, at that time, normally, 10-second videos. The files we have are, consistently, just short of 30-second videos. I don’t know why/how that is the case. It might be possible there have been developed software modifications over the years for this very popular cellphone that make it possible to shoot longer than 10-second videos.
I think it is possible he was either experimenting with this cellphone or testing it as he shot those Model Creek Road Burnout Operation videos.
Because, when things turned “serious” he turned on the Sony and used that.
PS. This Nokia cellphone had the capability of capturing way more video than we see here and storing it on a mini-memory card.
And, of course, so did the Sony.
The cellphone I’m talking about:’Nokia 3620 (AT&T)
http://www.cnet.com/products/nokia-3620-at-t/
Marti… great stuff.
I am reading everything and following but no time to post today until now, and even now I only have a moment.
I am not SURE this can be the exact device used… but it might be close.
This device seemed to have been sold as a GSM phone only… but some of the EXIF metadata indicates the device actually used for those first 3 videos was CDMA ( Verizon / Sprint ) and not GSM ( AT&T / T-Mobile ).
Also… don’t forget that the resolution of the videos
shot was exactly 176×144.
That’s not an exact ‘match’ for this particular Nokia… but then there is this from the review you posted…
“You can take pictures at the highest resolution of 176×208 pixels in three different modes”.
Notice the 176. Matches exactly. As for 144 versus 208… the 144 might have been the setting for one of the three ‘modes’ mentioned.
Also… did you catch the following from the review you posted above.
Note the mention of ‘only 30 seconds of playback’. for a ‘movie’. in the last sentence from this paragraph…
———————————-
As noted, one of the 3620’s major selling points is the built-in VGA (640×480 resolution) digital camera and video recorder. You can take pictures at the highest resolution of 176×208 pixels in three different modes: up to 300 images in Portrait, 18 pics with Night, or 15 shots in Standard. In video mode, you can record up to 95K of footage at 15 frames per second. The video isn’t exactly smooth, and you get only 30 seconds of playback, but it’s a nice novelty.
———————————-
More later.
Marti… followup.
I really am out of time to post today… but I just wanted to give you a heads up about where I am getting this ‘had to be around 2003’ assumption just from the EXIF data.
See link down below in this post.
The ‘cut’ from the information on that page might ‘screw up’ in this post a little but if you go to the link itself it is much easier to read and the same records are right there at the top of the page.
The ‘Major Brand’ field from the EXIF data is an EXACT MATCH for the very first record in that extensive (official) record of ‘ftyp’ designators.
It links to a ‘reference’ note at the bottom of the page which establishes 2003 as the release date for that version. No sooner, No later.
The ‘spec’ wasn’t update ( officially ) again until 2006 ( Reference note 15 ).
So it wouldn’t have been until 2006 that devices would have started claiming compatibility with version ‘3g2b’ with a version number of…
C.S0050-A V1.0.0
Technically… I suppose that means devices would have been showing what we are seeing in this EXIF data from 2003 through March of 2006. That ‘opens the window’ a little for other ( older ) devices.
Here are TWO EXIF data fields present in all 3 of the first 3 videos taken up on Model Creek road…
MIME Type: video/3gpp2
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
From… “Complete List of all known MP4/QT ‘ftyp’ designations”
http://www.ftyps.com/
NOTE: It’s the FIRST one in the list below…
the only exact ‘C.20050-0 V1.0’ entry…
———————————————————————
Complete List of all known MP4 / QuickTime ‘ftyp’ designations
Rev 2.0 – 22 Aug 2009
———————————————————————
ftyp Description Developer URL Reg’d MIME type Notes / Ref
3g2a 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0 3GPP2 / CDMA200 YES video/3gpp2 [14]
3g2b 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-A V1.0.0 3GPP2 / CDMA200 NO video/3gpp2 [15]
3g2c 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-B v1.0 3GPP2 / CDMA200 NO video/3gpp2 [16]
————————————————————————-
Note References…
[14] – Ref: 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0 12 December 2003 [1305 KB PDF] section 8.1.1
[15] – Ref: 3GPP2 C.S0050-A V1.0.0 31 March 2006 [1626 KB PDF] – section 8.1.1
[16] – Ref: 3GPP2 C.S0050-B v1.0 18 May 2007 [773 KB PDF] – section 8.1.1
——————————————————————–
Notice also from these records that ALL versions of the early spec were targeted for CDMA phones… ( CDMA200 spec, to be exact )
and not any incarnation of GSM phones.
CDMA = Verizon / Sprint devices
GSM = AT&T / T-Mobile devices
More later…
Got it, thanksj!
I’m not going to be able to do much today. either. That’s why I decided to keep drilling yesterday to get as far as I could get.
But I understand what you’re saying.
As I understand it the CDMA version was the one sold for the European market (because they had/have different networks).
This is something I only kinda/sorta understand, also. When Terra spent 2007/2008 in France, she left her cellphone at home and got another one in France.
That supports my hypothesizing that Aaron may have picked this phone up somewhere on a serious lark and was experimenting with it.
And thanks for the catch on the lower resolution/30 second video part.
So are you saying that we don’t have a match for the image size?
No… we don’t…. not unless one of the other ‘modes’ it says you can use is the 176×144 image size.
Here’s a link to a more detailed review of the 3660, the CDMA (Verizon/European) version of the phone.
Nokia 3660
http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?p=389
OK I’ve been looking around. There are a lot of CDMA Nokias that might come under that 2003 thru 2005 standard.
It’s really too back the camera id doesn’t show up in the metadata. All my ancient digital cameras do.
I think I’m going to stop working on this, all things considered.
To see every phone Nokia released, go here:
Nokia Museum
http://nokiamuseum.info/nokia-phones-collection/
I DO think it’s a Nokia, especially given the CDMA. It’s closest competitor, Sony Ericsson, was strictly GSM after 2003. Until 2011.
For some reason people here are questioning the validity of RTS
Let me ask all a couple of questions.
Did you supervise a Hot shot crew in Arizona for 22 years?
Do you personally know all of the R3 Hot shot Superintendents?
Did you go to the Yarnell Hill Walk Thru with the R3 Superintendents?
Did you go to the Yearly Hot Shot meeting?
Do you know and talk to on a regular basis many of the overhead from FS Arizona and New Mexico?
Are you Retired FS and under contract to R3 ?
If you answer yes to all the above you are RTS.
We are very lucky to still have him on here after what Elizabeth did to him personally.
Do you think it is easy to get information to put on here without violating the friend ship you have with those willing to talk to you. That’s what we do with the information we impart to this blog
You have read my resume in the past and know who I am. You have trusted me so far.
..Thank You
DON’T SHOOT THE MESSINGER—–We only Carrie the information it is yours to use or file.
Trying to change the tone back to one of discussion and helpful information.
Very well-said.
Both you and RTS have a huge amount of experience, expertise and personal/professional contacts. I think it is upsetting to some that the facts and conclusions you both put forward aren’t a nice, neat happy story. Life often isn’t nice and neat. I have actually had sharper words with both you and (I think?) RTS over some technical issues than most other posters, but I note I never questioned either of your experience or judgment, and there are reasons for that.
I also am firmly convinced that addressing squarely some of the issues that you and RTS bring to the fore will save meaningful lives in the future. Maybe on average only a life here and there and a critical or life-changing injury here or there, but those are huge things. Burying little things and big things, by contrast, seems innocuous because it feels good and no one has to see future victims except their families.
While we have disagreed we have never argued and I always weigh what others have to say there are differences of opinion that are harder to discuss when you are not face to face. That is what we are all here fore I certainty do not have all the answers.
Recap the chapters. We finally are spending a hour to reply to posts.
start with Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter IX
Questions and Replies I have for the public.
(CAPS ARE ME REPLYING TO POSTS)
“yarnellhillfireblog”. I saw that on last chapter as I skim. Does this belong to Elizabeth Nowicki as November 14, 2014 at 6:12 am replied to me such answer. Please answer only Elizabeth.
Calvin asked question but did not see a reply to his question so bringing it here.
calvin says
September 10, 2014 at 6:32 pm
Mr Powers.
The fire crossed the retardant line at 1540 and we hear Marsh giving that report. By backing off a good distance, could they attempt once again to construct line?
———————
Bob Powers says
September 10, 2014 at 4:25 pm
While we are out there researching go back and check what Marsh was told his assignment was for the day and what resources he was assigned.WHERE IS THAT INFORMATION? My understanding was his assignment was to find a anchor point and build containment line to the cat line.THAT IS WHAT WE DID NOT SEE BUT LEARNED ON HIKE WITH HOLLY NEILL AND WAYNE NEILL AND DR TED PUTNAM- FROM OUR POSITIONS THEY WERE ALWAYS AT EASE BUT MY PHOTOS SHOW THE GMHS DID THE FIRE BREAK BECAUSE IT WAS STILL THERE THE GROWTH SO THE LEWIS CREW DID NOT DO IT SO THAT NARROWS IT DOWN TO THE GMHS MEN He was assigned 1 Crew GM to accomplish that on DIV. A. He had no other responsibility.IS THERE A WAY TO KNOW THAT. WHO WOULD KNOW THAT?
———————-
Marsh had a small Air tanker assigned to him in the morning which did not work well because Air Attack kept dropping on his Fire outs so was he ever really in charge of ordering Air tankers? SONNY AND I SAW THAT FROM OUR POSITION AND I REMEMBER I SAID THE ONE DROPPING RETARDANT IS RETARDED—IS THAT PERSON IN THE SAIR EXPLAINING HOW COME THEY DID THAT?
————————–
Why would he then assume he had the responsibility in Glen Alia? ILAH.
WE DID NOT SEE MARSH EVEN PAYING ATTENTION TO GLEN ILAH BUT WE DID SEE HIM FOCUSED TO THE WEAVER MOUNTAINS FROM THE YARNELL FIRE LINE TO CONGRESS SIDE AND OLD GRADER AREA
when every one else was ordering drops in town WHO IS EVERYONE AND HOW DO WE LOOK UP AND MATCH SATTELITE AND LIVE IMAGERY OF WHAT WE KNOW WERE THE SLURRY DROPS TO MATCH IT UP TO THE ORDERS PLACED AND ITS LOCATIONS AND TIMES. IS THAT IN THE SAIR TO REFER TO?
to save what structures they could. FROM ALL THE FIREFIGHTERS ON THAT FIRE THAT DAY THAT HAVE COME TO US THEY WERE UNDER THE IMPRESSION TO SAVE LIVES NOT STRUCTURES AS YOU SEE IN ONE VIDEO THAT JUST CAME OUT WHERE THEY STATE SOON STRUCTURES ARE ABOUT TO BURN AND YET YOU DO NOT SEE ANY STATIONED NEAR MANZANITA TO PREVENT THOSE HOMES FROM BURNING BUT ONE AREA DID GET A SLURRY DROP. HOMEOWNERS WERE NEVER TOLD TO EVACUATE—VERY CHOPPY WHERE ONE JIM NAGEL STATED A FIREFIGHTER ON QUAD TOLD HIM BETWEEN 5-6 MARK TO GET OUT AS JIM NAGEL WATERED HSI PROPERTY AND HOME DOWN AS HE WITNESSED THE VERY LOW TO GROUND FIRE SURROUND HIS AREA THAT HE FELT COULD OF BEEN PUT OUT QUICK HAD THE FIREFIGHTERS JUST DONE THAT INSTEAD HE FACED A LOSS OF HOME.
————————-
I think they took the dozer back to the Trailer to load it and get the equipment out of the way and that is why they were there not to build line.
I think they decided that was not feasible and got out of there. We don’t know if they really checked with no report from Ball or Hernandez.WHERE CAN WE FIND OUT FACTUAL INFORMATION VERSUS ONE THINKS BECAUSE WE SAW THAT DOZER THAT DAY AND IT MADE ITS WAY IN MANY AREAS YET WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW FROM DOZER DRIVER HOW AND WHEN YOU WERE TURNING AROUND IN THE LOCATION OF WHERE THE FIRE WAS BLAZING FIERCE DOWN AND UP BY THE OLD MINE AND WHERE IS THEIR ACTIVITY LOG FOR THAT DAY- IS IT IN THE SAIR? YOU WOULD THINK SO BEING WITHOUT THE BULLDOZER ON 6-30-13 ALOT OF ACTIVITIES COULD OF NEVER HAPPENED. calvin says
September 10, 2014 at 12:58 pm
If there was nothing for GM/Div A to do with the dozer, then what were they (Hernandez and Ball) doing with the dozer? WE SAW THAT DOZER VERY ACTIVE THAT DAY. WE SAW MORE PROGRESS DONE BY THAT DOZER DRIVER THAN THE LOW ALTITUDE OBSERVING YELLOW AND WHITE HELICOPTER THAT SEEM TO MAKE A SMALL BUSH FLARE UP FIERCELY BY THEIR OBSERVATIONS OF BEING THERE. I WOULD LOVE TO SPEAK TO THAT PILOT AS TO WHY THEY WERE DOING THAT? IS THAT IN THE SAIR BECAUSE IN OUR 45 MINUTE SAIR INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW THEY DID SEEM VERY INTRIGUED TO ASK US DID WE FEEL THAT HELICOPTER HAD CONTRIBUTED TO THE END RESULT? WHY ASK CIVILIANS SUCH A QUESTION?
——————–
Bob Powers says
September 10, 2014 at 12:28 pm
Divisions leaders and crews do not go off on their own.
Close escapes and disasters follow when there is no leadership. The preverbal Chines fire drill..
Your on your own safety is foremost you better make the right decisions for the safety of your self and your crews.WE WATCHED MARSH SCOUT AND TRAIL AND HE WAS AT THE FIRE LINE AND WE SAW IT AND THEY DID THE FIRE BREAK JUST BECAUSE THE OTHER END OF THAT FIRE BREAK DID NOT TIE IN—HOW DOES THAT MAKE IT MARSH’S BAD—PLEASE EXPLAIN THE OTHER END DIV Z BECAUSE WE HAVE HEARD MIX COMMENTS SO WHAT REALLY HAPPEN ON THE OTHER END OF THAT FIRE BREAK.
——————–
A plausible theory, providing a simple explanation as to why Marsh moved south. NONE OF US CAN ANSWER THAT YET MAYBE DONUT OR SOMEONE OR AIR ATTACK CAN SHED LIGHT THERE. WE ALWAYS FELT HE WAS NOT WITH THE MEN BECAUSE THAT IS HOW WE SAW IT THAT DAY AND WE SAW HIM WITH OTHERS AT TIMES. WE ARE NOT SUPPORTING HE WAS WITH THE MEN ESPECIALLY WHEN RADIO COMMUNICATIONS AND THE RECENT VIDEO AND MEDIA ( I CAN SEE THEM MAKE A BOO BOO) BUT NOT THE MEN WHO ARRIVED AT SCENE…WHEN IT IS SAID CONFIRMED 18 FATALITIES. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE HOW COME THERE WAS NOT AN IN DEPTH INTERVIEW FOR THE FIRST ON THE SCENE.
——————–
YOU ASK GOOD QUESTIONS SO MOVING YOUR QUESTION AGAIN HERE CALVIN:
calvin says
September 10, 2014 at 11:57 am
Mr. Powers.
Is it possible their move to re engage (if that were to be true) was connected to the Dozer and the fact that it (or Ball) was scouting line near Glen Isla?
—————————
Bob Powers says
September 10, 2014 at 10:24 am
If he needed to move the crew to attack the fire and start new line he had 2 choices.
1. Move to the place where the fire was at the black and line and start new line down hill. As we both know that was a bad choice. Never build line down hill with the fire below you even wit 1 foot in the black..
This is basically the same thing as what they did by going down thru dense brush to get to the bottom of the fire.
2. Go around thru the black to the base of the fire find an anchor point and start new line. This again as we know is the only way to reengage. The real problem here is the fire was moving faster than they could have got there as proven by what happened.
But that move would have been a better choice for any crew safe and able to start new line had the fire not turned and ran across the flats.
We talk about reengage but what and where would that be? They were in a high position with few choices near end of shift the fire was in town and not a place that a hand crew could do any thing with.
From my stand point at 1600 the crew was done, sit back or move thru the black and down and out in the black. There was no way for any frontal attack on the fire at that time in anyone’s imagination.
SONNY ALWAYS SAID AT 12:38 PM 6-30-13 WHEN THE WIND SHIFTED AND FROM 12;24-12:38 TOOK THAT WHOLE MOUNTAIN HILL (HARPER CANYON AREA) OUT WITH A FIERCE WHIRLWIND OF FIRE THAT NO HUMAN NEEDED TO BE IN AREA AT THAT POINT AND WE WERE ABOUT 1.5 MILES AWAY AT THAT TIME ON THE 2 TRACK RIDGE SO WHY WOULD ANY THOUGHTS OF RE-ENGAGING BE AN OPTION TO MARSH OR THE HIGHER UPS- THE DIVISION Z WAS REPORTED TO US AS LEAVING LIKE SONNY DID AND THAT PERSON WAS SPOT ON TO DO THAT EVEN THOUGH HE WAS COMMANDED OTHERWISE- WHY THE MEN LEFT THE BLACK IS STILL THE MAIN FOCUS IN ALL THIS AND WHAT REALLY HAPPENED THAT FINAL HOURS-
I CAN TELL YOU THE AZ I WAS JUST GIVEN MAY GIVES US THAT ANSWER IN GOD’S TIME—I HOPE.
——
THE PERSON WHO LED THE MEN THAT WAY AND THIS EXCLUDES SOME THEORY OF HIGHER UPS— I MEAN MARSH OR STEED—THOSE 2—IN THE END ONE OF THEM LED THE MEN TOWARDS THE HELM’S AND THAT IS PROVEN AS THERE LAID 19 DEAD MEN AND SO THAT PERSON DID AN UNSAFE MOVE IF IN FACT THERE IS NO RECORD FROM AIR ATTACK SEEING WHAT AIR ATTACK FELT FROM ABOVE OF THE HELMS AREA—IF AIR ATTACK HAD NEVER MADE A COMMENT EVER THAN ONE OF THOSE MEN DID ERROR IN LEADING THAT WAY YET STILL NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION PUBLIC TO KNOW WHAT MADE THAT SUCH DECISION-
AND UNTIL THEN I AM A SUPPORTER THAT NOTHING SHOULD BE DISCUSSED IN THIS TOPIC UNLESS YOU CAN BACK IT UP WITH SOURCES AND RESOURCES AND RAW STUFF AND NOT I CANNOT TALK BECAUSE I HAVE STRICT CONFIDENTIALITY—THIS TOPIC NEEDS TO BE AIRED ONLY WITH FACT BASED ONLY INFORMATION NO THEORIES.
———————-
OKAY GOTTA GO-
I am stopping at WantsToKnowTheTruth says
September 9, 2014 at 9:49 pm
Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter IX
The retardant line?
No a hand crew could not have done any thing in line construction by that time. By the time they would have got off the mountain, if they made BSR they would have had to wait out the big run
DIVS-A establish a anchor point and construct line back to a cat line. DIVS-Z never did giit a line connected to GM’s Hand Line. The fire jumped out of DIVS-z and was uncontained so all line GM build was of no use at that point.
The Air tanker is a mess but my understanding is the AA had him drop on the GM firing out along there line. Never herd any more explanation as to why.
I do not believe Marsh ever thought he had responsibility for Glen Ilah or the Tanker drops there being done by AA.
Hernandez and Ball were working in DIVS-z with BR and the dozer. The Dozer could not work in DIVS-A as the fire burn line was in to many rocks and not accessible.
Marsh and Steed were responsible for the crew they and they alone made the decision to go where they did. In doing so they failed to follow the basic training and safety directives.
LCES is the simple one dropping into a brush field canyon is a critical mistake but still a very bad decision in all the training I ever had. They compounded there safety with I believe a calculated risk that said they could beat the Fire to BSR.
Hope I got every thing if you need more do not hesitate to ask.
Yesterday Chuck Tidey spoke on some of his art displayed currently at the Yarnell library. I commented to him and Walter Schlegl that one art piece with that 60’s canary mustard yellow and bright white art and frame reminded me of the times I would visit a lady from my church Emily Cooley who played her piano the only thing left to connect to her husband that passed on and until the day she passed on searched for the answers here on Earth “why”. I remember those moments so strong to my life. I think Walter and Chuck might think I would talk about the “ohhhs and ahhs” like my mother likes to do when looking at others art. The only time I “ohhh and ahh” is when I see new fact based raw not cropped or edited information for the YHF. I will never forget this lady. She would play her piano with such grace and His anointment like as if Heaven opened up with her tiny little fingers as they hit the keys kinda like our lil’ grown up friend who God shared to my life Akiane and how her tiny fingers touch a brush to a canvas. (Watch Heaven is for reals very last part of the movie and you will see why I think God places people to me like Akiane and Emily so long ago and this new set of folks. YES there will be a time I will share more but pretty neat to see what soon may become so obvious who has the plan…I hold no expectations in meeting these new set of folks yet indeed hopeful…
Every part of JD’s page here is M A G N I F I C E N T!
The EGO, the INTELLECT, the valuable and invaluable information, the warmth, the cold, the many diverse people, the spirit where we all rise above the horse shit— IT’s US!
I would not let go of any of it. I do hope that if you have resources and sources that show a person differently than how one presents it here and due to current professional position is limited than do not place out tones that can be dissected or swallowed wrong where it can cause confusion and misunderstandings. If you have a strong belief and its being shared and misinterpreted than some how or some where an error was made because in all the writings on JD’s page is to help guide to the TRUTH.
If what you put out makes YOU feel you are not being heard than either one is not doing a good job teaching or not doing a good job with your homework or what you place out show where you came to such conclusion like Bob Powers or myself state we have information but cannot share at this point to this public setting—it does not mean we have not shared in our own space setting; right Bob Powers? You and I both would not put stuff out there to mislead or misinform. We may not have all information or facts in front of us yet we give when we get what we can.
JD’s page was never made to build a foundation for friendships yet we have seen such flourish from the page.
This page was made to piece the puzzle that easily could be completed if the RIGHT ones shared—
I am trying to share to all here locally to break that fear based thinking and SHARE!
I’m also trying to educate Sonny that he does not have to label me or concern himself to my health matters because I cover there all areas like I do this YHF—I have traditional docs and nature and alternative and ME and my health is just my body’s way of telling me something is not balanced…may it be the work of the horse shit they spray in our foods or skies…or maybe something I am doing to my body—ohhhh how I love to make a cowboy campfire under the moonlit stars and get the old Griswold hot with olive oil and toss in some organic popping corn kernels and put a dutch oven lid on it and hear the pop, pop, pop…to then melting butter and drizzling the butter and salt over it and kick back and watch a good old flick—so I know my wrongs—but hey some people smoke, drink, etc/whatevers and so we all have our hang ups but in it can we hang it up about Elizabeth Nowicki in last chapter and FRESH START…let’s all be here sharing what we find for the families and friends or prior fallen families as we learn more about the YHF.
Side note: you can always order labs without a doctor online you all know—if not—you now do.
I take the nature and the traditional doc and my labs and guess what…some inconsistency—
Tells you something. Well, the same with the YHF. One said this and another said that and it was not consistent to the well orchestrated SAIR report many bought by the way but not me.
When the time comes and I get the ability to share just REMEMBER Wednesday 11/12/14 11:53am when God gave me that ax—Remember I posted awhile back when Sonny handed me an ax in Utah and said I was going to solo chop down this tall VERY TALL tree all the while Sonny’s Husqi laid near me—oh how I stared and glared that chainsaw. I thought with all the twists and knots a chainsaw would be easier—Sonny insisted I did this one tree with the ax. One swing at a time. I was proud than frustrated than proud than angry than proud than staring at chainsaw. Eventually and I mean EVENTUALLY the tree fell.
I am very hopeful who God shared to me will be the very break in this all but me I would of hastily inquired but I lay quiet only confiding in one source and that person on our hikes showed an interest to the person who came to us so I felt that person deserved to be in this strictly confident at this point. I did not want to be alone in this news because of the threats of being heard and watched I did not want to be alone in knowing the information and if I shared it here now it may dissolve the whole event as well as proper information.
Willis and Donut feel information rests with the 19 yet I am passionate that the LIVING here are very valuable as a whole room of popes and mother Teresas because in the END the TRUTH will succeed and Donut, not to focus in on you alone because we know factually you are not the sole one with more information yet do the right thing Donut and set them and so many free and REALLY SPEAK UP!
In answering Joy and concerning Donut and his comment made on national TV that the truth would die with him I believe he was trying to protect his comrades. As for Willis, I believe he withheld information for other reasons–perhaps it was a threat to loosing the job after retirement that some call double dipping. Seems like it would be pretty cozy to belong to certain Prescott groups–called cronies in some lingo.
I am learning about the firefighting business and was set back and quite confused when Willis stated that is what those GMHS do–they protect property and he felt they went down in that terribly brushy canyon because that is what they do. They could not just sit there safe in the black knowing that those houses down there might burn. Then later Mike Dudley said the exact opposite. He said that wild land fighters would never do something like that. They are never trained to concern themselves about anything but the wild fire itself. Good thing we got Bob Powers here since I know I can trust what he says. I believe he already said it–a no no to risk lives to save vacant houses. I think the local boys that have fire engines feel the same way. They were for the most part playing the fiddle at the Ranch House while Rome burned according to some local residents.
Joy and I don’t know since we came in about ten minutes and got my old station wagon out from under a large tree that burned to the ground. By the time we rounded up Penny and dogs and birds and headed down the mountain we could see that most of the firefighters were already assembled at the Ranch House cafe. I joked that those boys were not about to let their breakfast and donut house burn down and it didn’t. I suppose they did the best they could considering the pandamonium– just consider many residents escaped by the skin of their teeth–so things were not well orchestrated anywhere that day.
Well keep pouinding away–I know our efforts are not appreciated by some but the truth sometimes may come back and bite them in the ass.
Reply to Sonny post on November 18, 2014 at 12:00 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> In answering Joy and concerning Donut and his comment made
>> on national TV that the truth would die with him I believe he was
>> trying to protect his comrades.
Sonny… thanks for your comments up above and your continuing participation in this ongoing discussion.
Do you happen to remember WHICH interview Brendan McDonough made this comment in about ‘the truth would die with him’?
I don’t seem to recall, offhand, when that interview took place or who it was with.
Thanks in advance.
It might be a good thing to address the 34+ and counting deaths that have occurred in the immediate Yarnell area considering the small population of 645, make that 611 and less now. This concerns firefighters as well since old Sonny has been doing a little reasearch on the agent orange fire retardant that was dumped in copious amounts from a huge jet liner right back of Chuck Tidey’s residence. Joy and I have found that many locals have complained of lung problems and now I find they may find that some might find their vision impaired as well.
You see, that fire retardant is more than 85% ammonium phosphate. That is a very unstable chemical that produces concentrations of NH3 or ammonia gas once it hits the ground. That ammonia gas is toxic and once breathed in kills lung cells. In fact it causes necrosis of the eye tissues as well. The eye problems won’t show up immediately and you need to wait at least a week for those to appear. However, if you already suffer from lung disease then a good dose of NH3 can do you in. What happens is once the NH3 hits any moist surface such as the eyes, lungs, throat, mouth, etc. it creates ammonia hydroxide–that is called lye in the powdered form and is handy to burn radiator scale out. You can also make soap with it by adding it to bacon grease–something my mom did and once got her hand in it. Whew was she ever sorry–her hand looked like it was inflamed lizard skin where for a long time she could not use it. Nasty stuff, and I once knew a man who caused his young 11 year old son to drink a solution of it and then he himself ingested it afterward to commit murder and suicide. A nasty way to die indeed.
They will tell you the minor irratations you receive from NH3 are nothing to worry about. Maybe your eyes and lungs will not suffer permanent damage, but I find high concentrations do cause permanent damage to tissues. To top this stuff off named LC95A by the chemical companies that make it, there is greater than 8% of this stuff that is hidden as to its chemistry by labeling it as a trade secret. You have to be a health official to find out what it is. I am always suspicious when something is hidden this way. It can be known if you are some sort of health official so you firemen ought to find out what is is you breath everytime they dump that the orange fire retardant.
By the way that orange color is iron oxide. We call it hematite or limonite or other forms with color differences. In the powder form it certainly is not healthy and if you have ever breathed rust dust you would know how unhealthy it can be for the lungs.
I will copy and paste the formula for that forest service retardant LC95A that they say will continue to be used anytime homes are threatened. Here goes:
2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Composition
Substance CAS No. %w/w EINECS No. Risk Phrase
Ammonium Polyphosphate Solution > 85.0 none
Attapulgus Clay 8031-18-3 < 5.0 310-127-6 none
Iron Oxide 1332-37-2 < 5.0 215-570-8 none
Performance additives Trade Secret < 8.0 Listed none
Performance additives are Company Trade Secret – Business Confidential. ICL Performance Products
LP is withholding the specific chemical identity under provision of the OSHA Hazard Communication
Rule Trade Secrets (1910.1200(i)(1)). The specific chemical identity will be made available to health
professionals in accordance with 29 CFR 1910.1200(i)(1)(2)(3)(4).
Wow. Sounds like really NASTY stuff that was only meant to be used in boondock ( if anywhere ) and certainly NOT near any neighborhoods.
After SPGS Gary Cordes requested OPS1 Todd Abel to tell Air Attack to ‘drop at will’ ( because Cordes had lost the ability to transmit on the Air-To-Ground channel due to a broken radio )… retardant was, in fact, being dropped directly on TOP of houses following that ‘drop at will’ order.
Even if some WFF would come back and say “We do that all the time’… I wonder if, somewhere, that really has ALWAYS been ‘against procedures and regulations’. established by both Forestry Service and OSHA.
I know there have been studies/reports/changed policies about retardant recently, I haven’t had the time to seriously review them. They’ve mostly had to do with the environmental impacts of them on ecosystems, water, and wildlife. There have been some changes in terms of the ingredients of these retardants.
I really do think a number of the retardant drops (the WET ones) did stop the fire from burning a number of structures.
(And yes, one of the things we have periodically looked at but haven’t finished looking at are, as Joy has recommended, a combination of the aerial imagery we have, combined with the Google Earth mapping we have, to really map out where the drops were in relationship to the impact they made.)
(Of course, that’s exactly what the Air Study study was all about being supposed to be about–so where is THEIR report???)
In terms of the toxicity of the retardant on the Yarnell Hill Fire, not to mention the toxicity of the fire itself, in relationship to the residents of Yarnell, yes I agree, all things considered, this should be investigated, especially given your and Joy’s postings about the fatalities that have occurred since this fire.
And, as I have frequently ranted,
the evacuation of Glen Ilah and Yarnell was a complete debacle.
I have been plastered with the stuff with no ill affects as many fire fighters are
It is required to be non toxic as FF are all ways getting dropped on and the chemical has to be biodegradable??????????
Bob you might want to do a little research on that stuff. Resulting nitrates have made dead zones in rivers and oceans and fish have been killed out because of it. Chuck Tidy announced publicly that he has contracted cancer since the fire. Whew did they dump a bunch of retardant behind his house and behind the storage units Joy and I stayed in. I am certain Chuck would say the same thing you say–we tend to believe the chemical companies and good tidings since that stuff slows down wildfire advance. Dr. Ted Putnam agrees with you. Well I only got a B in College Chemistry Class so I am no authority on this — my research was on line from the medical view of things and written up by the medical profession. NH3 does produce necrosis of the lungs and can even cause blindness. Satellite pictures of this area show a high concentration of NH3 a toxin that also comes from car exhausts and why they have catylitic converters to reduce it to a less harmful emission.
You might wonder how this can affect people here. Well if your lung capacity is diminished, while you are unaware of it, and say you already have a bad heart due to high cholesterol then your heart which is already receiving less oxygen than it should will now be pushed over the brink and you can have that heart attack. Now what does this have to do with cancer? Perhaps it does not but I would think with poorer lung function an already taxed immune system will be hindered even more–that might allow cancer or other diseases to set in–some fatal. Stress from this fire added to this is another compounding factor. Science will tell you that stress indeed is a factor in heart and cancer cases. The COPD cases and NH3 speak for themselves.
What do we have here? Well there is more than 8% of that slurry that you can not tell me of its chemical composition since they have labeled it trade secret. Well that is unless you are a physician and bother to ask. What I have found is that people just accept things that the government says is safe.
If you remember thalidomide and all the deformed babies that were born you will understand how far from the truth these government and industrial giant scientist paid people can be. That was safe and so was mining Uranium ore according to officials at the mine. The only reason that geologists and bosses wore dosimeters was to make sure the miners themselves were working in safe conditions so we were told. Well the signs w0uld come down after Mine Inspector hours of 9-5, and we would work in formerly “restricted” hot areas. A foreman explained to me when I questioned the practice that they needed that hot ore and that the radiation level was not really that high to cause problems. Well miners today get a consolation prize for having the long term effects of lung and other cancers as a direct result of that “low level safe uranium ore”. When mucho dollars are at stake these big corporations find and make studies that can find damn near anything safe,
And what do we know about this. Joy and I both have developed lung problems from being in Yarnell after the fire. We thought it was some quirk as we felt our lung hurting. But then we started seeing these deaths from COPD and Joy is the greatest inquirer about matters like this so she started simply asking people. We found that a great number of people have the same problems–no they are not all dead from it but for sure they have been diminished in that way.
I would not use ammonia for anything like cleaning but everyone can do as they please–I hope you keep your lungs healthy. If you smoke it might be worse. In the case of Uranium the carbon in a smokers lung traps radiation so that it remains there long term and eventually metastasizes healthy cells so they become a cancer. Plutonium is said to be the most poisonous thing on earth. You only need one little molecule of that toxin to get a cancer going.
It would be lovely to let the firefighters know the more than 8% they do not know about. Most these days are educated enough to use the computer to figure out what they are up against and make some decisions that can affect their long term health. Firefighters are somewhat like tramp miners (my own past profession). We are risk takers and sometimes we also tend to believe officials without actually checking out the source.
I would likely trust a Ted Putnam or a Bob Powers over myself in advice in a firefighting situation especially where it concerned other men and life or death situations. I know for a fact that Ted saved lives in at least one fire fighting situation he was in. You can read about that in MaClains book “Fire on the Mountain” where a whole chapter is devoted to his work in fire fighting. But when it comes to chemicals, I personally distrust anyone that puts them out, especially if they are a multi billion dollar profit situation such as Uranium mining was.
Sonny let me first say as well I am no chemist.
At first fire retardant was an algae base mix. was really a lot like snot’
It was died red for visual locations. it held moisture well but was a problem in the wild due to the algae.
They then went to phosecheck which is I believe the base of what is used to day. Many of the chemicals are basic compositions of fertilizer that will hold moisture content for some time depending on the current weather. Some of the fertilizer caused havoc with fish due to its concentration and the mix was changed..
It has always been more dangerous to be hit wit a large solid mass of the stuff which will knock you down and break bones ( like a solid jelly mass ) but having a layer on you is not a heath concern.
Again the current slurry mix is wet not dry and the chemicals are not toxic to humans or animals. That is my knowledge from both mixing them and having them on me no ill effects.
Again that is a layman’s information curve.
All retardant is dropped “WET”…. The water evaporates out of it within a certain period of time (depending on RH/Temp etc)
YES AND SO ANGENT ORANGE WAS ALSO SAFE Reminds me of my old prospector Dad. He had found a hot uranium rock about the size of a walnut. I remember it clearly since it looked like a small brown iron meteorite and he by chance had picked it up on a hill in the Burrow Mtns. That think pegged his geiger counter dial clear over. Well he carried that in his pocket like a good luck charm for a number of years. I believe it caused him prostate cancer in the end. But in those days some people actually believed that low grade uranium could be good for you. Same that some doctors swore that smoking had no harmful effects–especially those doctors that smoked themselves or worked for the tobacco companies. So the point is, Agent orange good stuff, roundup good stuff, and now we have if you read the literature–no long time study of the LC95A FIRE RETARDANT CHEMICAL effects on human health. Even rats i think have not been tested.
Well that VA doctor in Pres%cott because of cultural mis communication could not understand the importance of knowing about the 8%of hidden chemicals, but then I will likely show up at the Phoenix VA–couple good American born doctors there that hopefully help there.
p
he hikers says
December 3, 2014 at 4:22 pm
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Thanks for the encouragement private e mails from ‘Otis, Charlie and Eric. We needed that considering how things went the past few days. We are happy that at least one federal officer is looking at this site and keeping track of things. Maybe an official investigation will develope–something many of us would like to see. Those 19 men, their friends and loved ones as well as those that lost so much from the fire deserve the worlds finest on this one.
Joy finally got her pizza at Ray’s in Surprize, AZ. She used to ride her bike from Congress to here just for this guys pizza. Nice to have a beer with it too.
We’ll be in the American Legion later to see if we can round up more photos. Joy is officially a member now since her grandfather fought in WW2. Thanks again for your help in this.
Reply
the hikers says
December 3, 2014 at 4:08 pm
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Thank you Otis,
Eric and
Charlie for your private emails that one got off here on comment wall,
one of Wild fire T- Bill G’s page
and one who researched it out elsewhere.
Thank you for the in country as well as out of country very very good information/kindness and we appreciate it and Eric as soon as I have pc time we will fulfill your request and seriously thank you Otis
we are finally getting my pizza.
yummy.
Sorry for double-posting.
I was having Safari problems.
OK. I’ll unpack my messenger bag.
What I wrote early this AM in response to WTKTT posting the metadata from Aaron’s cameras:
Re the W2U files:
Hmmm
Maybe start here:
Sony – Cyber-Shot Shock+Waterproof Camera Orange+32GB+Helmet+Handlebar Mounts+Batt+Case+Flex Tripod+Acc Kit – Orange
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cyber-shot-shock-waterproof-camera-orange-32gb-helmet-handlebar-mounts-batt-case-flex-tripod-acc-kit-orange/1311290807.p?id=mp1311290807&skuId=1311290807
Their “action cams” don’t zoom.
But this one does. And it’s optical zoom. And Sony uses Carl Zeiss lenses. The very best. That would explain what I was seeing in the first M2U video.
But no remote. He would have had to operate this by hand.
Just looked at 69. It’s the same length as the YouTube version.
More videos have been uploaded now.
Thanks, JD!!
Regarding the 3GP files:
Hmmm.
That 2003 GP3 really is a stumper.
I thought GP3 was associated with GoPros. Guess not.
Correction It’s 3GP
Big learning curve for me here.
Maybe it IS a flip cellphone?
Marti digs back thru the cobwebs in her mind to try to even remember what her first cellphone was (it didn’t take pictures) after learning that 3GP didn’t start with GroPros, but with 3G networks.
2002
“Nokia 7650
This was the first Nokia set to feature a built-in camera and was featured in the movie Minority Report.”
From “THE EVOLUTION OF CELL PHONE DESIGN BETWEEN 1983-2009″
http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/05/the-evolution-of-cell-phone-design-between-1983-2009/
So Aaron was, possibly, actually shooting with an antique cellphone?
(This, if in fact it is the case, in no way substantiates what our counselor said about how fire fighter crews use old cellphones because they can’t afford anything newer. ) I’ve seen WAY too many firefighter videos to believe that.)
Confession.
My Melita Drip Coffee Maker/Carafe is over 27 years old.
I wouldn’t even think of using anything else.
Unfortunately, Lightroom can’t even SEE these files.
Fortunately Bridge can.
But Bridge is reading the date created as the date I downloaded it.
Lightroom is SUCH a drama queen.
Hmmmm
Looking at it in VideoSpec (something I’ve almost never used):
It says under iPod/iPhone/AppleTV/iPad Compatibility:
“iPod 5G”
and none of the others.
Possibly an iPod 5G?
3GP is, under the covers, totally based on the Apple QuickTime Movie format. It doesn’t absolutely mean it was an Apple device… but it very well might be.
More soon.
Example… the following EXIF field…
Handler Description: soun
…also seems to indicate an Apple product.
The four letters ‘soun’ are trademarked to Apple for use in this particular DATA field.
Video codices and formats give me migraines. Biggest reason I haven’t really gotten into video.
Yes… they can get really complicated.
Since the 1970’s… streaming media codecs have followed the “A fool creates and a genious steals” rule.
It all gets VERY ‘incestuous’.
What complicates everything is all the actual cross-licensing.
You are actually ALLOWED to use a lot of what other companies have ‘invented’ and/or ‘patented’ as long as you either pay one-time licensing fees ( commercial codecs ) or you agree to follow the rules governing open source licensing for the ‘public domain’ codecs.
That’s what I meant by just because we see some EXIF data items that would tend to indicate an Apple device and/or the Apple Quicktime Movie format… that doesn’t mean it wasn’t an OEM ( Original Equipment Manufacturer ) availing itself of Apple licensing to ‘do their own thing’.
The problem also becomes KNOWING who is licensing what from whom. Commercial companies and OEM’s are allowed to ‘keep that secret’ under ‘trade secret’ laws.
Not to worry. The breadcrumbs are actually there for us to find out a LOT more.
But it sure would be good to see a TRANSCRIPT of an INTERVIEW with Aaron Hulburd.
I am sure someone has such a transcript… or at least Prescott National Forest Employee Aaron Hulburd’s original ‘Unit Log’ from his participation in that fire that day.
We just haven’t seen that INTERVIEW yet.
OK, so I’m reading the User’s Guide for the Nokia 3620.
It says:
“Note: 3GPP file format (.3gp) is the standard video file format for
Multimedia Messaging.
You can record video clips up to 95 KB in size,
or approximately 10 seconds in duration.
Recorded video clips are in the .3gp format.”
10 seconds in duration. Hmmmmm. Not 29s 733ms, which is what this file is.
So I’m trying to figure out how this thing works.
The user’s guide says the camera, via 3GPP[2]. films 10 second tracks which, apparently are then tagged with, in this case, the 3g2 extension (which seems to be why Lightroom doesn’t recognize these files, but does recognize and play Jerry Thompson’s 3gp files just fine. (That REALLY confused me).
(I’ve found a workaround for that)
I’ve been hunting to see if this Container (3GPP2) can record more than 10 seconds, but I can’t find anything about that.
So my question is, if the user manual says 10 seconds and the videos are consistently 29 seconds, what’s with that?
So I’m still assuming Aaron is using the Nokia.
I haven’t checked out the Sony. I’m pretty much guessing, all things considered, it’s the same.
Or maybe, since this was a 2003 camera phone being used in 2013 (and still quite popular now by cellphone buffs), various ways to modd it have been designed.
Aaron could have even bought this phone cheap off ebay or something and was “testing it out” that day.
When Aaron was filming from the Incident Command Center, capturing the convo between Willis and Abel about working the fire at the Double A Bar Ranch, and zooming way in to capture the flames in that direction, he used the Sony,which was more than capable of doing that really well.
When he filmed the Model Creek Road burnout, he was, relatively speaking, experimenting (I think) with a possibly modded “antique” 2003 Nokia 3620 “smartphone” which could do all kinds of awesome things, including, finally, shoot, and send out over the internet, video.
Then, when things got hot and heavy and serious again on Shrine Road, he switched back to the serious Sony.
That’s what I’ve been basically trying to figure out here.
And even though, as WTKTT writes below, the Sony was probably an older “action cam,” and required more hands-on effort, and was a bit more “clunky,” its optical zoom and top of the line Zeiss lens made it superior to the other current action cams in terms of image quality.
There was no other camera in use a year and a half ago that could capture the QUALITY of video Aaron was capturing with this camera.
Which is why I still use my 27-ish year old Melita.
…and my almost six-year-old imac, which many have said is the best imac ever manufactured.
And why I am in no hurry to replace either of these.
Nowhere does it say that those 10 second tracks are laid down on the memory card “stitched together” as WTKTT described how they do it now.
This was, at that time, just about getting itsy bitsy video files for sending out in various multi-media ways quickly and easily over a cellphone.
It was a threshold.
I’ve really broken up this thread, wandering around researching this phone and posting what I’ve been finding.
Definitely scroll down for the rest of my findings.
… to see what cellphone I’m actually talking about.
From Wikipedia:
iPod Classic
“3rd generation[edit]
iPod (3rd gen), 2003.
On April 29, 2003, Apple announced a completely redesigned third generation iPod Classic. Thinner than the previous models, the third generation models replaced the FireWire port with a new Dock Connector and introduced the Touch Wheel, a completely non-mechanical interface with the four auxiliary buttons located in a row between the screen and the touch wheel. The front plate had rounded edges, and the rear casing was slightly rounded as well. A new wired remote connector was introduced. Whereas first and second generation iPods had an auxiliary ring around the headphone port for the remote, the third generation iPods had a 4-pin jack adjacent to the headphone port. A 10 GB model was sold for US$299, a 15 GB model for US $399, and a 30 GB model for US $499. All iPods were now compatible with Mac and Windows out of the box, was simply requiring Windows users to reformat the iPod before use on a PC and both iTunes and Musicmatch were bundled with all iPods. The battery life was reduced to 8 hours, partially due to the use of a lithium-ion battery as opposed to a lithium polymer battery.
The 15 GB model was replaced by a 20 GB model and the 30 GB model was upgraded to 40 GB on September 8, 2003. The Windows-based Musicmatch software was made obsolete and replaced by iTunes 4.1, the first version available for Microsoft Windows.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod_Classic
Oops. It didn’t have a camera.
So this piece is mostly irrelevant.
If I could delete I would.
Getting closer.
From “History and Advertising of Nokia Phones 1990’s-Today – Rosie”
“Nokia launched its first 3G phone, the Nokia 6650, in 2002. The launch of 3G (“third generation”) technology meant mobiles would never be the same again. 2002 also saw the launch of Nokia’s first phone with a built-in camera, the Nokia 7650, and its first video capture phone, the Nokia 3650. 3G meant you can use your phone to
download music
make video calls
watch TV on the move
browse the web”
So far I haven’t found any other cellphones used in 2003 that have video capture. So I bet it’s the 3650. He IS a videophile.
http://kingygraphicdesignhistory.blogspot.com/2010/06/nokia-phone-history-and-advertising.html
That’s a VERY historically significant vintage cellphone.
Nokia 3600/3650
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_3600/3650
Many people disliked it because it had a circular keyboard, although others said that design was better for text messaging.
So 8 months later (October 2003) they introduced the
Nokia 3620/3660, with a conventional keypad.
The 3620 was for the US market and the 3660 was for the European market.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_3620/3660
These phones had 3.4 MB of memory available to the user, a 176×208 pixel 4096 colors display, and the rear camera is 0.3 megapixels 640×480 VGA,
So, yeah, those short, identically chunked, pieces of video were probably the way the camera shot video.
Some math could determine how many of those chunks of video could have fit on the cellphone.
Actually, the 3620 had a massively upgraded display.
“The 3620 captures a full 65,536 colors (a noted improvement over the 4,096 colors on the 3650), making it easy to see in low light and giving it a sharp and vivid look. ”
Nokia 3620 (AT&T)
http://www.cnet.com/products/nokia-3620-at-t/
And, also, even tho the phone has only 3.5 MB of user memory, it has an additional memory card:
“Storage isn’t an issue with the handset; you can keep images on the phone’s 3.4MB of onboard memory or the included 16MB MultiMediaCard stowed away under the battery. If you want more space, you can add a higher-capacity card. “
OK. It did have one competitor available at that time:
Nokia 3620 vs Sony Ericsson P800
http://www.phonearena.com/phones/compare/Nokia-3620,Sony-Ericsson-P800/phones/648%2C130
Gotta run.
I’m thinking he would have gone with the Nokia over the Sony, because of the vastly better display.
Unless he was a total Sonyphile.
OK. I’ll unpack my messenger bag and bring something over to discuss.
What I wrote early this morning in response to WTKTT posting the metadata:
Re the M2U files:
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 18, 2014 AT 1:47 AM
Hmmm
Maybe start here:
Sony – Cyber-Shot Shock+Waterproof Camera Orange+32GB+Helmet+Handlebar Mounts+Batt+Case+Flex Tripod+Acc Kit – Orange
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cyber-shot-shock-waterproof-camera-orange-32gb-helmet-handlebar-mounts-batt-case-flex-tripod-acc-kit-orange/1311290807.p?id=mp1311290807&skuId=1311290807
Their “action cams” don’t zoom.
But this one does. And it’s optical zoom. And Sony uses Carl Zeiss lenses. The very best. That would explain what I was seeing in the first M2U video.
But no remote. He would have had to operate this by hand.
Just looked at 69. It’s the same length as the YouTube version.
More videos have been uploaded now.
Thanks, JD!!
Please disregard this comment and look upstream.
I was having Safari problems while trying to post.
**
** EXIF METADATA CONTAINED IN THE FILES RECEIVED BY INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA
The release ( last night ) of public copies of what InvestigativeMEDIA *actually* received in response to the recent FOIA request is a great place to start a new chapter.
So here is some of the *actual* EXIF data from those files.
The bad news: There are definitely TWO different video cameras involved but they both seem to be ‘older’ devices and there doesn’t seem to be any actual DEVICE information in the EXIF data that would specifically identify them.
The good news: There is ENOUGH data there to figure it out what devices they really were.
Also some more bad news… the first three videos have some TIMESTAMP information in them… but the more important ‘Helmet Cam’ videos do NOT.
** THE FIRST THREE VIDEOS
The following piece of EXIF data actually dates the camera.
This version C.S0050-0 V1.0 of the 3GP video format dates back to 2003…
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
The following field seems to verify the AGE of this device as circa 2003 since it ONLY lists a 3GPP ‘compatibility’ mode with the older V1.0 version. If it was a more modern 3GPP capable device it would be listing additional ‘Compatible Brands’ like ‘3g2b’ and ‘3g2c’. ( in addition to the early 3g2a version )…
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
There is a ‘Current Time’ data field in this version of 3GPP, but as you well see below… either this device wasn’t updating it or that time-stamping feature for videos had been turned OFF.
** FILENAMES TAMPERED WITH?
Something really strange is going on with the ‘Media Create Dates’ versus the filenames that are appearing for these 3 files.
Here are the actual ‘Media Create Date’ timestamps embedded in these files… and the length of time BETWEEN them…
‘Create Date’ field for 0630131532.3g2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
‘Create Date’ field for 0630131533.3g2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46 ( +66 seconds )
‘Create Date’ field for 0630131534.3g2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07 ( +81 seconds )
This timestamp information does NOT match a possible device file naming sequence of…
0630131532.3g2
0630131533.3g2
0630131534.3g2
According to the device clock… it was 22:32:34 when the first video was ‘created’ ( 10:32:34 PM ).
We certainly know it wasn’t 10 PM in the evening… but even then the ‘minute sequence’ is off from reality.
The ‘minute value’ for the first two files matches ( 32 and 33 )… but according to the device itself the third filename should have had a ’35’ minute value instead of ’34’.
It’s late in the evening here.
More about all this later.
Here are some EXIF data ‘dumps’ from the files in the Dropbox…
** EXIF metadata contained in 0630131532.3g2
File Name: 0630131532.3g2
File Type: 3G2
MIME Type: video/3gpp2
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
Movie Data Size: 407900
Movie Data Offset: 28
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Time Scale: 1000
Duration: 29.80 s
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
Track Header Version: 0
Track Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Track Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Track ID: 1
Track Duration: 29.80 s
Track Layer: 0
Track Volume: 0.00%
Image Width: 176
Image Height: 144
Graphics Mode: srcCopy
Op Color: 0 0 0
Compressor ID: mp4v
Source Image Width: 176
Source Image Height: 144
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Bit Depth: 24
Video Frame Rate: 15
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Header Version: 0
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Media Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Media Time Scale: 8000
Media Duration: 29.80 s
Handler Type: Audio Track
Handler Description: soun
Balance: 0
Audio Format: mp4a
Audio Channels: 2
Audio Bits Per Sample: 16
Audio Sample Rate: 8000
Avg Bitrate: 110 kbps
Image Size: 176×144
Rotation: 0
** EXIF metadata contained in 0630131533.3g2
File Name: 0630131533.3g2
File Type: 3G2
MIME Type: video/3gpp2
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
Movie Data Size: 411029
Movie Data Offset: 28
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Time Scale: 1000
Duration: 29.92 s
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
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** THE HELMET CAM VIDEOS ( The M2Uxxxxx.MPG files )
Now that we know the ACTUAL ( original ) file extension for the M2Uxxxxx files was .MPG ( and not .MP4 ) that pretty much proves Hulburd’s ‘Helmet Camera’ had to be some kind of SONY based device.
Perhaps an older Sony HandyCam or Sony MiniCam.
There really isn’t much information there on initial inspection… but there *might* be more.
Stay tuned.
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Well isn’t that special.
THAT got the new chapter off to good start.
C’mon people… FOCUS.
Please read what Mr. Dougherty wrote at the top…
Please refrain from personal attacks.
The TROLLS will come… and the TROLLS will go.
Let’s try to keep this at a better level than the end of Chapter IX.
I agree. But am sick of the bullshit!
Agree.
Last week was extremely confusing and, speaking for myself, I let my own frustrations result in too much troll feeding. I am promising myself ( and all of you ) I will try to not let that happen again. It’s not constructive.
Me too. I have WAY too much real stuff to do (like get thru Joy’s photos and post them. which is my next task).
I missed something some where about RTS posting about people that are dead
Or real proof we been at this for 16 months Calvin we have said over and over what proof we have. All I saw was RTS’s reprint from Chapter IX about Elizabeth.
So you totally lost me????????????
Rts. Your comments concerning people that are dead are at the minimum, disturbing and unnecessary. The proof that GM were reckless, based on the premise that they rolled their sleeves up has been proven to be absolute bullshit. If you have any REAL proof show it. Otherwise, You are the Fucking liar!
Calvin,
Your personal attack is pretty light. Please get that stowed. As a matter of analysis, failure to observe little rules doesn’t, by itself, show that big rules were knowingly (or inadvertently) broken. But, it’s a clue. And, pieced with the decision to bushwhack, when GM did, with the weather forecast they had, with the knowledge that I agree Marsh and Steed should have had that the bushwhack would be a long, hard slog, with the fact that Frisby had to rescue their lookout earlier, with the report that Marsh had been warned by peers in past that his tactics were questionable, with the fact that there’s video showing their buggies parked in light fuels having to be rescued on an earlier fire — well, pieced with all of those things, it is a relevant piece of information.
I get the sense, Calvin, that you personally identify with one or more victims of the fire. I understand that, and haven’t heard anyone here say they aren’t all brave, admirable men. People make mistakes. I have a feeling RTS is concerned among other things that unsafe practices not be papered over, as there are still people out there today who can also be put at risk if those practices continue to not be identified and/or are identified and then winked at.
Reply to SR post November 18, 2014 at 10:36 am
>> SR said…
>>
>> I have a feeling RTS is concerned among other things that
>> unsafe practices not be papered over, as there are still
>> people out there today who can also be put at risk if those
>> practices continue to not be identified and/or are identified
>> and then winked at.
I have to totally agree with this statement… and add “well said”.
The ‘Human Factors’ part of a fatal accident investigation are never easy to talk about… but they MUST be considered / discussed / investigated.
On the mere CHANCE that they played SOME part in a fatal accident… they should be fully known because they are, in fact, controllable to a good degree.
It’s about TRAINING… and it’s about DISCIPLINE in a dangerous profession.
Those are things that can always be improved.
There is a reason airline pilots have to be continually re-certified.
They are ‘leaders’ in a dangerous profession and the lives of many innocent people are ‘in their hands’ all the time.
Any lapses in perception, judgement, physical abilities ( eyesight, depth perception, etc. ) need to be identified before they might contribute to an accident.
Dangerous professions require this strict kind of ‘oversight’ and ‘learning from prior mistakes made’. That’s just the way it is.
Calvin What was that all about?
Your attack on RTS is unwarranted on several grounds.
Continued abuse of the Safety rules by GM and others is a reflection of crew safety.
For a fact GM was told they were in violation on several occasion for the Sleeve thing.
Proven fact inside information from people the crew worked for so lets get past that’
The proof of good out comes from bad decisions. I have information out there from other HS crews in R$ I personally talked to as well as Division Supervisors in R4 that worked with the crew. RTS has contacts with many of the People who worked with Marsh Hot Shots and others He as well Knew Marsh and his crew. RTS has more knowledge from R# of all the crews than we could ever have,
If your out burst came from private talks with Elizabeth you relay need to stay away from her.
Again I will say as I have in the past I respect and trust what RTS has said here others are afraid to speak publicly about Marsh and GM that is not RTS or My fault Trust what we say or file it. Please refrain from calling people a Liar. That’s what Elizabeth dose .
RTS has given you facts I trust that as I have info seperiate from his.
Typing error R$ is R4 and R# is R3
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
I ALLEGE that you PROVE yourself to be a LIAR, DEVIOUS, VENOMOUS, with hidden agendas and so much more, with your despicable attitudes and behaviors. WHY do you continue to persist in this manner? You accuse others of what YOU yourself are responsible for and YOU yourself are doing on a regular basis. You are the CONSUMMATE HYPOCRITE! Who do you think you are anyway? Were you an only child and this is the only way you can get the attention you so desperately need? You are SO far off base on almost everything you post anymore, full of lies, falsehoods, and half-truths and then some. You are definitely setting a new standard for Law Professors. And your pattern is SO predicable as well. This latest one with you claiming to have all the original videos is an all-time classic though, and may top the Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy charts. A new zenith in Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy lies and hypocrisy! Please crawl back into your hole or into your web.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY.
As I was leaving library
learned someone I never laid eyes on may shed light
but not feeling well so asked if they had photo or oral account and since its just oral I said can it wait as you see my forehead
Let you know more when able but by Friday I hope to get more details but do firefighters use flairs because I said I would ask for someone since one local account spoke on that topic.
he hikers says
December 3, 2014 at 4:22 pm
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Thanks for the encouragement private e mails from ‘Otis, Charlie and Eric. We needed that considering how things went the past few days. We are happy that at least one federal officer is looking at this site and keeping track of things. Maybe an official investigation will develope–something many of us would like to see. Those 19 men, their friends and loved ones as well as those that lost so much from the fire deserve the worlds finest on this one.
Joy finally got her pizza at Ray’s in Surprize, AZ. She used to ride her bike from Congress to here just for this guys pizza. Nice to have a beer with it too.
We’ll be in the American Legion later to see if we can round up more photos. Joy is officially a member now since her grandfather fought in WW2. Thanks again for your help in this.
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