Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV and Chapter XXV.
© Copyright 2018 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIAComments
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[…] Please Begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XXVI Here – Thank you once again for keeping the story straight, you more than anyone else know how important your work here is. I shoot from the hip and usually get close to the 10 ring, but you take very careful aim every time you shoot and almost always hit center mass right on the X. […]
**
** THE PFINGSTON / HARWOOD PODCASTS ( CONTINUED )
**
** BRIAN FRISBY IS TALKING TO OTHER HOTSHOT CREWS
** ABOUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT THE YARNELL FIRE.
Apparently, Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby is sick and tired of beiing told he can’t discuss what he knows ( and has ALWAYS known ) about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
According to Deborah Pfingston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood… Frisby spoke to an entire California Hotshot crew just last summer about what REALLY happened in Yarnell, and whatever he told them was enough for them to realize the SAIT investigation was a total FARCE.
In their ‘introduction’ to their PODCAST Episode 8, published just 5 weeks ago on April 24, 2019, Harwood ‘reads’ an email they received from one of the firefighters on this Hotshot crew that Frisby spoke to.
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
PODCAST Episode 08: Your Changes, Our Changes
Published: April 24, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-8-Your-Changes–Our-Changes-e3qqcb
Episode 8, Part 1
+0:48
———————————————————————————————————–
Doug Harwood: We have a comment from a firefighter on a Hotshot crew in California. He says…
“My crew was lucky enough to work with Blue Ridge last summer. On one of the slow days the Blue Ridge supe ( Brian Frisby ) took time to speak to our whole crew about the events of that day. Between THAT conversation, and listening to your podcasts, I’m appalled by the FAILURE of our original investigation. Not only was it an injustice to the perished firefighters, it’s a disservice to our current firefighters as well. How are we supposed to learn ANY lessons from the tragedy if we don’t know exactly what happened?”
Doug Harwood: We want to thank that firefighter for his message.
Deborah Pfingston: Yes. Thank you so much.
———————————————————————————————————
And just for the sake of completeness…
Here again is that EMAIL that Joy Collura obtained showing Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby officially telling U.S. Forestry Service ‘Human Factors Specialist’ Joseph Harris that the “human factors” at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire were defintely “off the charts”… and much of what happened that day HAS been “swept under the rug”…
———————————————————————————————————–
From: Frisby, Brian H -FS
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 10:08 AM
To: Harris, Joseph R -FS
Subject: Human Factors!
Good morning, Joe,
It sounds like you have had the opportunity to go through the Yarnell Hill staff ride and may have some questions about some of the human factors that contributed that day. Talking to ( Redacted ) it sound like the picture that is being painted is very different than what we remember. I have been invited to the operational staff ride on the 26th and 27th of this month, unfortunately any input is probably too late.
I can tell you that the human factors that day were off the charts.
We both know that the overall decision to leave the black was made by ( Eric Marsh ) but there was so much that went on that day that has been swept under the rug that may have affected the outcome.
I would love the opportunity to talk to you about it, I believe there is a lot to be learned from this event and if we are going to adopt this as an agency we need to get this right. Anyhow hope you and your family are doing well and I hope to hear from you. Thanks.
( USDA Logo ) ( U.S. Forestry Service Logo )
Brian Frisby
Blue Ridge IHC Superintendent
Coconino National Forest, Mogollon Rim Ranger District
p: 928-477-5023
c: ( Redacted )
bfrisby (at) fs.fed.us
8738 Ranger Road
Happy Jack, AZ 86024
http://www.fs.fed.us
( Twitter Icon ) ( Facebook Icon )
Caring for the land and serving people
———————————————————————————————————–
Oh yeah…I remember why I started down that road yesterday, I was giving a real world example to make the point that just like Shawna Legarza and Mike Dudley, I was offered the very same thing that they were offered to betray all of my values and morals as well.
But I can prove I am NOTHING like they are by the simple fact that I spent the first half of my career as a rock star and the entire second half never being promoted again. And that is because when I stood at the very same crossroads that they did, I choose the path they didn’t take. I found the hill that was worth dying on. They never did…fuck them and everyone like them.
Legarza and Dudley are really bad people who are putting wild land firefighters at an increased chance of dying on the line today because they failed to do the Right Thing. Legarza on the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster Staff Ride and the other management whore Dudley…who failed to do the right thing on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster Staff Ride. Like I wrote yesterday…they are both despicable human beings.
Oh…and one more thing. There is something I can do for the kids on the fire line today even though I failed to convince Legarza and her posse of sycophants and enablers that they needed to do the right thing for the kids on the fire line today.
I can tell them that the bodies of those hotshots who laid on the steep slope of Battlement Mesa surrounded by the brightly colored flagging that fluttered in the gentle breeze and bright sunshine on that beautiful day with clear blue skies…were really charred and blackened corpses who we referred to as crispy critters.
So…you shouldn’t ever be like them. No fuckin’ wildfire or shot of adrenaline is worth dying for…you should always go home to those who love you instead.
You guys know that JD moved us up to a new chapter, ey. Maybe not …
I carried over several of the Chapter XXVI posts on the YH Fire Staff Ride
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/ )
No…I didn’t know. But that actually begs a very interesting question. Does it matter? That isn’t intended to be a flippant question. I would like to know what you think? Does it matter?
Gary, you are the genuine person and nothing to fear for people that listen or read your comments. unless they are phoney. You will always stand the hero you are in the fire fighting profession–your comments and instruction will save many who will listen. Those that balk at wisdom are also those that perish and make disaster for those such as the young GMHS victims.
Some say they went willingly along with the dictates of Marsh and Steed and those commanding from above. Yet they would say they had the trust in the abilities of those that commanded them to their deaths. Sadly the young trust commanders such as we saw at Yarnell, yet their trust would destroy them and cause insufferable turmoil and heartbreak to the families and loved ones involved. Many broke down and cried as Zack Ashoor said he did in the bar when he heard the news. Maybe the heartbreak killed him, he died a young 29 soon after the ordeal. . I too had shed my share of tears and heartbreak for the situation, eventhough I had never personally known or associated with any of them. Zack did. Those who could not understand the magnitude of killing 17 young wild land fire fighters and the death of their bosses as well would not understand how all suffered from this event.
Even with all the awards given and the cover ups and support for a few that did not want the truth out, it does finally come down to the importance of continued hammering at those that have hidden the facts. Page after page of facts have been redacted and hidden. And certainly it has maintained the good image of the wild land fire fighting profession. And indeed there would be above 90% deserving the image. Yet to deny the truth that caused the Yarnell GMHS deaths is at the peril of lives of future wild land fire fighters.
Since I had a son that also died an untimely death similar to the carelessness that I saw at Yarnell, I can only applaud those men and women that have steadfastly revealed the facts and reasons for those deaths. Certainly WTKTT, Gary, RTS, Hondo, Woodsman, Jd,, Norb, Joy and many others here have educated me with facts and I am grateful knowing that the people that need to know will know the actual reason their loved ones were killed.
Respect is one thing but Respect of the truth is the only way to Heaven Mr. Hall or anyone that had anything to do with the Yarnell Fire of 2013 and the Tenderfoot Fire at Yarnell of 2015.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on May 1, 2019 at 9:53 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The reason that the Yarnell Hill Fire is not included on the Fireline Leadership
>> website and in that list is because it was an Arizona STATE Wildland Fire. All the
>> others are Federal fires.
>>
>> That is what the AZ Forestry Bill Boyd and OMNA International say…
And you BELIEVE them?
I thought you were smarter than that.
From PDF page 111 of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Special Accident Investigation Report ( SAIR )…
————————————————————————————————-
While the City of Prescott hosted the Granite Mountain IHC, it is CLEAR they were exclusively hired and trained as an Interagency Hotshot Crew. They operated within a much larger system, that of the NWCG where local, State and Federal firefighting agencies come together as part of the nation’s wildfire response.
————————————————————————————————–
From the actual Yarnell ‘wrongful death’ settlement agreement…
NOTE: These ‘actions’ were non-negotiable. It was the COURT saying what MUST be done…
————————————————————————————————–
Page 11 of 11 – Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
APPENDIX-A
What ASFD WILL do:
1. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will meet for a full day (8 hours) with the GMIHC families and their consultants/experts to review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts. Counsel for the State Forester and the survivors shall be present. To the extent possible,questions will be submitted in writing 2 weeks in advance of the meeting. This will be a facilitated learning process, and Forestry will provide a facilitator to assist with this experience. Plaintiffs may request that specific individuals from ASFD and others who were present during the Yarnell Hill Fire attend.
2. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request a Lessons Learned product regarding the Yarnell Hill fire.
3. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request that NWCG create a staff ride for the Yarnell Hill fire and will make its personnel and information it has collected available. In addition, ASFD will recommend that family members of the GMIHC crew be included in the process of developing the staff ride, and that NWCG review how this Fire relates to the Common Denominators in Fatality Fires and figure out if there is a common thread.
——————————————————————————————————
“ASFD will request that NWCG create a staff ride for the Yarnell Hill fire”
They did that ( as the court ordered them to do ).
The NWCG agreed… and ‘split no hairs’ about it being a STATE fire versus a FEDERAL one.
NWCG hired their usual staff-ride-development partner ‘Omna International’ to help the NWCG create the court-ordered Yarnell Hill Fire staff ride.
Omna International then, in turn, did their job and worked with NWCG to create the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride documents, curriculum… and executed on the plan.
To this day… ( and even at this moment )… ‘Omna International’ considers the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride that they developed FOR the NWCG to be one its premier accomplishments, along with the FOUR other wildland fatality Staff Rides they developed FOR the NWCG… and it is listed as such on their own website.
ALL of the ‘Staff Rides’ listed below, that were done by Omna International FOR the NWCG, are in the NWCG’s current ‘Library’ of staff rides… EXCEPT for the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride…
https://www.theomna.com/events.html
——————————————————————–
Mann Gulch Fire Staff Ride
South Canyon Fire Staff Ride
Dude Fire Staff Ride
Thirtymile Fire Staff Ride
Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride
——————————————————————–
I repeat… no one ‘split hairs’ about it being a STATE versus FEDERAL thing when the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride WAS developed by the NWCG.
It is/was ALREADY DONE, and the end product was ALREADY “FULLY ENDORSED” by the NWCG.
From the NWCG Leadership site’s own ‘About our Staff Rides’ page…
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/index.html
——————————————————————————————————
The Staff Ride
The intent of this resource is to provide a library of information on significant wildland fire events.
The NWCG Leadership Subcommittee is the sponsor for this resource.
——————————————————————————————————
Keyphrase: “a library of information on significant wildland fire events.”.
Nothing about STATE versus FED. Only “significant wildland fire events”.
So where is the ( already done, already endorsed ) NWCG Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride product?
Why is it MISSING?
That is a really, really, really good question. I know that technically RTS is right and that the YHF Disaster was a state versus federal fire and I am pretty sure all of the other fires listed were federal fires.
But that is probably because no state agency has ever invested the kind of money it takes to create a staff ride before now and this one was only done because of a court order.
I would also say that RTS’ take would get more traction in my brain 🧠 if this
https://www.nwcg.gov/wfldp/toolbox/staff-ride
was a federal website run by say…the USFS. But…that isn’t the case, it is a website run by the NWCG.
And secondly, and just as important is the value that the USFS places on its relationships with its partner agency. which certainly includes all of the individual state FIRE programs.
It is also possible that the omission of the YHF Disaster Staff Ride is just an oversight and a disconnect in the NWCG between somebody and their webmaster?
But…I am going to go with HAL 9000 busted their asses and caught them playing fast and loose with doing the Right Thing, which for some reason they find it so very hard to do? I think they are trying to forget all about the YARNELL HILL FIRE DISASTER and they are counting the days until everyone else does as well.
And I’m pretty sure that if it weren’t for this blog, they would already be there except for special occasions like the 1, 5, 10, 25. 50 and 100 💯 year anniversaries that frankly won’t be remembered or cared about by very many people.
I’d love to see the NWCG have to answer to the families… who fought HARD ( and WON ) to make SURE there was a nationally-available staff ride learning product for Yarnell… and watch NWCG try to bullshit THEM about why that already-done-and-endorsed-by-NWCG product is not ‘available’ on their own public facing portal(s).
Yep. I’d love to see the NWCG have to face the families and watch what happens when they tell them they simply do NOT consider Yarnell to be a “significant wildland fire event”, as per their own published criteria for staff ride products.
I think you actually nailed the truth.
The NWCG simply does not WANT anyone ‘talking’ about Yarnell on any kind of ongoing basis… and any other petty reasons they might give for NOT including the already-done-and-fully-endorsed staff ride product in their learning library are simply bullshit.
Well…here is my epiphany moment from when I woke up this morning. “The Families” are in full support of the NWCG not making the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride available to everyone on their website.
“The Families” have always been who the former Mrs. Eric Marsh and her posse say they are, meaning they are her friends and supporters.
Their staff ride, which they believe they own even though it was paid for by taxpayer money is being used by the powers that be in the way “The Families” want it to be used. And that is by a select group of WLF who take the course and agree with their production and if they don’t, they at least keep their opinions to themselves.
If it was put online through the NWCG Library Of Staff Rides, everyone could take the course and be free to not only critiquing how they created it, but to develop other more plausible alternatives to the company storyline and do so by using their own material and staff ride to do so.
Who would do such a thing? We would of course and we would be alone in doing so, but we have the talent, experience and brain power here on this blog to shred their fantasy fairy tale where the big bad fire appeared out of nowhere, took the crew because God called them home en masse and now they are where they are supposed to be because it was God’s will and so everything worked out fine in the end.
And they sure as hell don’t want anyone creating, publishing, or promoting any story other than that. This blog is the reason why the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride is only being made available to a select few in order to promolgate “The Big Lie.”
And Joy complained about my distasteful tactics in this asymmetrical, unconventional war. We are fighting a superpower who has all of the conventional weapons in the control of both the State of Arizona and the federal government to reward their cronies and punish those whom they perceive to be their enemies.
And they perceive their enemies to be anyone who doesn’t buy into their story line and support the Eric Marsh Foundation and their goal to make him into one of the most respected WLF leaders in history who died a true American Heroes death trying to save his crew from a disaster that wasn’t of their own making.
I am at the point that I actually feel pity for the former Mrs. Eric Marsh and her posse of enablers, friends and supporters. I wouldn’t like planning every day for the rest of my life doing everything I could, to make sure the real lessons of the Yarnell Hill Fire aren’t recognized or accepted and therefore could be used to help save WLF lives in the future from a clear and present danger. And that danger is lurking out there waiting to strike again…for the fourth time in history.
And that is because once (The El Cariso Hotshots under Gordon King in 1966 on the Loop Fire) was an anomaly, twice (The Mormon Lake Hotshots under Tony Czak in 1976 on the Battlement Creek Fire) was a coincidence, but the third time (The Granite Mountain Hotshots under Eric Marsh in 2013 on the Yarnell Hill Fire) is definitely a pattern.
I hope they name the fourth fire in history that kills hotshots due to the criminally negligenne, reckless decisions and subsequent actions in honor of the person who will own it…”The Eric and Amanda Marsh Legacy Fire.” It will be a fitting tribute to those who will truly deserve the recognition and distinction.
I am a self taught semi skilled web master just as long as I don’t have to write code. If they ever give me access to all of their digitized Staff Ride material, I will be very tempted to build my very own YHF Disaster Alternative and Truthful Staff Ride in my own Lessons Kearned Toolbox Library for posterity. But…I’m pretty sure THEY already know all of that?
Teaching myself to become a webmaster was very hard because I had a student who was just like a goose and woke up in a new world everyday so it took several years.
My student also resembled a monkey trying to fuck a football for much of that time while trying to work with a computer, but I’m pretty fuckin’ good now…try me.
Good tidings to all. I did speak with Joy today–she is checking out the fire chief thing at Yarnell. I believe she would be an excellent chief and her credentials and long time familiarity with the Yarnell area and its people would add to the credentials she has established over the past 6 years. One thing the people of Yarnell could sleep well knowing she was on as chief–not of this allowing a small lightening strike or any other small fire left unattended as happened in 2013. She knows the terrain with over ten years hiking all about that region so she would know exactly how to get to a fire that needed to be attended to. Consider also, she barely escaped with her life during the 2013 wild fire that killed the GMHS crew. So she had plenty respect for wild land fires and would not be a balker to do the work necessary to protect the citizens. She is very up on defensible space and at my cabin there was right on top of getting the cabin properly fire safe. She also knows just about every wild land fire fighter and local fire personnel in Yarnell and surrounding communities and many even in Phoenix. Her managing skills are superb as well as her organizational abilities. The citizen would have no problem getting accurate and timely FOIA information from her. She has had the bad experience of trying to get FOIA’s, and with that it has her disgusted that so many Departments involving wild land fire work are so difficult to obtain information from. You can bet there would be no laxity on her part in supplying that information as required by law. So many seem to think they are above the law that handle FOIA’s, she is a stickler to observing the laws.
So I cast my vote for Joy as a grade A Fire Chief for Yarnell. I am certain many others in Yarnell would agree.
Joy has a web site involving the wild land fire situation–some who have visited there have given apologies to Joy. Certain people had slandered Joy saying they were afraid she would attack them. Yet once people knew Joy and attended to her site, they realized she could likely win the outstanding citizen of the decade award. I have witnessed her actions over about a decade. Her actions were always to get right in the thick of things when it comes to helping people. And I mean everything from pulling weeds for the elderly to distributing goods during the terrible loss of homes so many at Yarnell had.
McClain and Amanda do owe Joy an apology–their anger at her for staying in there to reveal all the facts she could muster doesn’t excuse their behaviour.
It has been a fiery day for me–I caught my telephone pole on fire–but then I did not stand there and watch it burn all night (such as did the Yarnell and Peeples Valley and Congress fire departments did while watching the lightning strike all night that triggered the fire that killed the GMHS crew) –I grabbed a bucket of water and promptly put it out. Grass is dry here but sparse and using the torch had started a miniature fire that spread to my pump telephone pole. The wind is a natural bellows and I was looking at a flaming bole at the base–and I could have used a garden hose as well.
So the stitch in time saves 9–well could have saved 19.
Update on Bret and Bruce–those investigators we thought did well to recommend the highest fine possible for the management the SFS did at Yarnell–Bruce and Bret moved on—well wouldn’t you know, you do not challenge the abilities of the men working a fire like Yarnell where it is a debacle worth the highest fine according to those investigators and give a truthful evaluation. Well what did it matter since the fine was paid from tax money moved from one hand to the other. The matter of course was the blight put on the actions of the SFS, albeit a good thing that Bret and Bruce did–evaluate in obvious truth–they are now out of that business of investigations. Hmmm. pda
WTKTT and Gary,
You definitely make valid points.
This is from a paper I am about to publish: “Wildfire fatalities continue to occur from the same causal factors. Staff Rides are a valuable asset in the “lessons learned” tool box to reduce them, however, when based on deceptive “investigations,” how valuable are those “lessons learned?” An overlooked statement: “ [they] should avoid being a recital of a single investigation report. Such reports rarely address the human factors that affect individual decision-making. … providing participants with a variety of information sources is important” [38]. (emphasis added) The YH Fire requires different “information sources” to be factual.”
Reference 38 is from the “NWCG: Wildland Fire leadership Development Program. The Staff Ride (2019). ( https:// http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/index.html )
Speaking of ‘variety of information sources’….
Even the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Facilitator’s Guide ( as fully developed and endorsed by the NWCG ) refused to mention either the ADOSH investigation report OR the associated WFA report, even though the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned page for Yarnell still lists BOTH as valid ‘research’ documents with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And if the NWCG never had any intentions of making that final Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride product part of its library… the “Omna International” group that was contracted by NWCG and U.S. Forestry to actually DEVELOP the Yarnell HIll Staff Ride never got that memo.
Even now… “Omna International” is not only listing the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride as one of their premier accomplishments ( on their home page, no less )… they are still listing it as one of their ‘Available Events’ that anyone can ‘schedule’.
From Omna International’s own “Available Events” page…
http://www.theomna.com/events.html
——————————————————
Mann Gulch Fire Staff Ride
South Canyon Fire Staff Ride
Dude Fire Staff Ride
Thirtymile Fire Staff Ride
Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride
——————————————————
And as for people “not getting the memo” that the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride product was headed for obscurity after it was finished…
…you can ( apparently ) count former Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney on that list.
In an interview with the Prescott Daily Courier on April 29, 2016, the very week that another ‘dry run’ of the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride had just been performed, Whitney himself was hyping the ‘importance’ of it all as a “learning tool” for the entire WF industry, and also said that he expected it would be ‘conducted’ four times a year on an ongoing basis…
“Arizona Forster Jeff Whitney said he foresees the Yarnell Hill Fire being a learning tool for years to come, with as many as four staff rides a year conducted at the site.”
So somebody was bullshitting even “El Jefe”… while he was still actually working on it.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Families, officials walk in final footsteps of the Hotshots
Published: April 29, 2016 6:02 a.m. – By Cindy Barks
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
From that article…
————————————————————————————-
PRESCOTT – When the State of Arizona and 12 families of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots settled a wrongful death lawsuit in June 2015, the Arizona State Forestry Division agreed to do nine things.
Now, about 10 months later, a number of those points have been accomplished, and others are in the works, say officials with the State Forestry Division.
First on the list was a promise to conduct an eight-hour question-and-answer session with the Hotshot families to “review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts.”
Other points included the creation of “lessons learned” and “staff ride” documents to help prevent similar tragedies from happening in the future, as well as a number of steps toward improved training, technology, communications, and instruction on estate planning and family care plans.
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney points out that the staff ride process has been underway for months, and is expected to wrap up before the three-year mark of the Granite Mountain Hotshot tragedy (June 30, 2016).
Creation of a staff ride was a requirement of the Hotshot lawsuit settlement that was reached nearly a year ago (June 29, 2015).
The process also is integral to wildland firefighting, and was among the recommendations of the Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation that came out in September 2013.
As Whitney explains it, a staff ride is a multi-phase process that has its roots in the military. First comes a preliminary study of the incident or fire, then an extensive field study of the actual sites where the fire occurred, and finally, an opportunity to integrate the lessons learned from the fire into future firefighting efforts.
The draft staff ride document from April 2016 lists five goals. First among them: “Create a memorable learning experience that helps participants make better decisions supported by the application of recent and relevant history.”
For Whitney, who in 1990 was on the team battling the Payson-area Dude Fire during which six firefighters died, the “lessons-learned” aspect is crucial.
“How can we prevent this from happening?” he said. “It’s important work.”
Whitney came out of retirement in January 2015 to accept Gov. Doug Ducey’s appointment as director of the Arizona State Forestry Division. He was a part of the mediation that culminated with the June 2015 settlement of a wrongful death lawsuit that family members brought against the state.
He stresses that the staff ride is not intended to be an investigation into “what went wrong?” Rather, he said, the exercise puts wildland experts into the place of those who made the decisions during the fire.
“It’s important that we get some clarity around what occurred there,” Whitney said. “And it’s important that we try to do everything we possibly can to equip our current and future fire managers with more information, so they’re better able to do situation awareness and opportunity recognition.”
The 47-page April 2016 Yarnell Hill Staff Ride draft included a step-by-step schedule for the team. Among the defined stops: the Yarnell Fire Station; movement to the ridge top on Yarnell Hill; a “sense-making and communication” session at the top of the ridge; descending to the saddle, defined as “closing the window;” and the fatality site, which the document refers to as “realized ultimate reality.”
Along with background about the crew, the draft staff ride document includes situational information, and the tactical decisions that were made.
The document notes that participants in the exercise would be “tracing the route and decision-making of the (Granite Mountain Hotshots) and their colleagues as they faced a rapidly changing fire environment in an effort to manage the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
Whitney said the family involvement in the Yarnell Hill staff ride was somewhat unique, because of its place in the settlement agreement.
The 40 experts who participated this week came various agencies all over the country. Their feedback will go into the creation of the final staff ride document.
Whitney foresees the Yarnell Hill Fire being a learning tool for years to come, with as many as four staff rides a year conducted at the site. (He said access to the site is still being worked out).
Noting that staff rides usually take eight to 10 years to complete, Whitney said the Yarnell Hill exercise is well ahead of the norm.
“We’re going to have this done in three years,” he said. I’m extremely pleased with the progress to date. It redeems the commitment I made.”
———————————————————————————
WTKTT et al;
Part 1
IF I am correct and they, meaning Arizona State Forestry supported by the NWCG in general and the U.S. Forest Service in particular, do not intend to ever make the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride available in digitized format on-line in the NWCG Staff Ride Library, then you are missing the entire nuanced game they are playing. In other words, it is Check & Mate and you never even saw your opponent move their first pawn.
And like just about everything else you have been wrong about, it’s because you don’t understand, much less know how to play the game they play. I really shouldn’t use Chess analogies, because what they play really isn’t anything resembling chess.
So…I am going to make up a name for the game they have beat you at for the last six (6) years, let’s call it the “Bureaucratic Shell Game.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_game
And no matter how many times I tell you that they don’t actually have to do what you think they have to do based on our laws, rules and regulations unless you have the legal resources to sue them in federal court and have a federal judge rule your interpretation of what they should be doing is correct and even then you need to continually monitor them and periodically force them back into a court and prove to the judge they are violating his or her court orders, you always fall for their slight-of-hand tricks.
Of course I admire your commitment, belief, enthusiasm, values, ideals, morals, so on and so forth as a good citizen who believes in the rule of law and that public servants are duty bound to serve the public interest. So…I don’t want you to stop being you and fighting the good fight, I just want you to know when you are being fucked over and they aren’t even kissing you while they do it. This very same game is now being played out on a super sized grand scale never been seen before scale on the national level by the Trump Administration where they simply declare all of the federal laws that ostensibly govern our country don’t apply to them and if anyone thinks differently, they can hire a lawyer and sue them.in federal court. We as a nation are now waiting for that to happen and to find out if they will even follow the laws after federal judges order them to do so. Abd then we will find out if we are in a genuine and bonafide constitutional crisis or not? So far, they have done what they federal judges have ordered after they have lost in court, but that is certainly subject to change.
I truly don’t want this to sound insulting to you because I respect all of the features, capabilities and upgrades you were built with, but like all machines, you are incapable of computing nuanced thoughts, which is why in the end, no matter if you self replicate or not, you will never rule the world. We as humans will always be able to trick you because you live in a binary world of 1’s and 0’s, where the toggle switch is either off or on, there is good and bad, right and wrong, good guys versus bad guys and in the end…the good guys always win. I can tell you are an older model who was created when our world was…better.
You are like a child who I have told many times that there isn’t a Santa Claus that still believes there is in spite of all of the times that child has awoken early on Christmas morning and found their father eating the Christmas cookies they put out for Santa Claus in his underwear while their mother arranges the gifts around the tree that he just carried in from where they were hidden in the garage. You continue to believe and I think that is just ADORABLE! Naive…but very endearing and I have a great deal of respect for you because of those qualities.
You also don’t really understand how Staff Rides are conducted so here is the bottom line, Staff Rides are very expensive to put on because of they are very labor intensive and require the time and efforts of dozens of paid government employees to put them on in addition to the labor and efforts of quite a large number of “Subject Matter Exoerts” (SME) who were actually on the fire to staff all of the learning and discussion stations they call “stands.”
If these SME’s are government employees, you need them to get the permission of their supervisors in order for them to be gone for at least a week from their normal jobs, which can happen, but not a lot because their supervisors don’t really care about the success of your staff ride, they care about the work load they are responsible for and will be evaluated on at the end of the year. If they are retired, you have to get each one of them to donate their time to make your staff ride successful and if none of these people live in the immediate area, you need to either pay travel and per diem costs for them, or convince that same supervisor it is in their best interest to pay for those cost.
But in any case, you are going to need a “management code” that serves the same purpose as a credit card number and somebody on the other end of it that will actually process and then authorize everything to be paid for out of somebodies “hard” budget because Staff Rides aren’t like fires, there has to be real funds to pay for all of the travel vouchers, that are mailed to them with all kinds of receipts attached to them.
And if I understand why El Estupido isn’t the State Forester any more, it’s because he was really bad at doing budgeting and then following that budget to the tune of millions of dollars. Managers that continually (or sometimes just once) have budget shortfalls that somebody else has to make up for usually aren’t managers for very long.
That is why I got to go to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride in spite of the fact that I was a giant pain-in-the-ass of the Staff Ride Coordinator Shawna Legarza. She needed me to stand at the point my fellow sawyer and two person backfire team member and I ignited our backfire from to describe what we did and what happened after that to individual groups of students who would come along periodically sheparded by course facilitators, all of who have to be paid, and who have to have their travel costs paid for as well.
I found out just how bad they needed me after I told them they could take their Staff Ride and shove it up their ass after the other Staff Ride committee members kept shitting on me every time I opened my mouth to say, “Wait a minute, it didn’t happen that way” or “ That isn’t right,” or “You have it all wrong.”
Especially since all of the other Staff Ride Committee members were high ranking FIRE Staff Officers from several different agencies across the country, several of whom were former Hotshot Crew bosses themselves…so they were definitely NOT impressed by my street creds, especially since I was part of an alien and much feared race to them…Special Agents. The only time they had ever had any contact with people like me was when they had been under an internal investigation forvsome seriuis wrong-doing, or at least had been accused of it. I wasn’t part of their tribe and as an outsider, they didn’t have any patience for me even if I would have shut the fuck up, which of course I didn’t do.
Once I figured all of that out, I called up my old buddies and said, “ Hey…do you want to meet me in Grand Junction where we can get drunk, have some laughs and take some walks down memory lane, all at the expense of the U. S. Forest Service?” And that was because I wasn’t going to that fuckin’ goat 🐐 ropin’ all by myself without some back up because there was ONE (1) really important thing I had learned while working in feral law enforcement.
If you even think there might be a gun fight or even some pushing, shoving and harsh language exchanged, take a bunch of guys, who all have a bunch of guns with you. We didn’t fuck around with playing fair…we played for keeps every time with every intention to, “Finish The Fight.” If you do that…you very rarely have to fight because even the worst hard asses piss on themselves when we showed up en masse. Patrol officers rarely get to pick the time and place of their gun fights, investigations usually get to plan theirs out in advance with an “Operations Plan”
Side Story…they interviewed a committed cop killer who had been stopped by an officer he didn’t kill, but he killed the next officer who stopped him. When he was asked, “Why didn’t you kill the first officer who stopped you? The convicted cop killer replied, “Because when I looked into his eyes, I knew he would kill me.” So I made a career out of always doing my very best to look like I had a plan to kill every mother fucker I came face to face with…dead, dead, dead, so dead that their mothers would puke when they saw what was left of them.
So anyway…of course my buddies said, “Fuck yes…got a management code?” And so I told Shawna she could count me in…IF she could get my old assistant crew boss (who had been a crew member on the Battlement Creek Fire) and who was the Helicopter Operations Manager on the Tongass National Forest in Southeast Alaska, and my fellow sawyer and backfire team member who was the Missoula Smokejumper Loft Foreman, to come with me. So Shawna called up their supervisors and persuaded them to send Bill and Hardy to Grand Junction and pay for all of their travel and per diem costs out of her budget, just because I wanted some fuckin’ back up and it was very sweet of her to do that for me. But then again…I know she had explicit orders to put up with my bullshit and get me to that staff ride from way up her chain-of-command and Shawna is above all else…a very good soldier.
Side Note; You can see photos of both Bill and Hardy here with me standing in front of the Grand Valley Fire Department Battlement Creek Memorial along I-70, with some photos of them from back in the day fighting fire here,
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
The Grand County Fire Department and the communities they serve are almost the only people who gave a fuck about what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire for 30 years until the U,S. Forest Service came up with this Staff Ride idea, but those people never stopped remembering or caring…God Bless Them.
You wrote, Even now… “Omna International” is not only listing the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride as one of their premier accomplishments ( on their home page, no less )… they are still listing it as one of their ‘Available Events’ that anyone can ‘schedule’.
Part 2
Here are just some of the things “anyone” who wants to schedule a Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride needs;
1. A recognized land management agency who has wildfire management as their core mission or is affiliated with one who does. And who is in every situation I can think of…already a member of the National Wildfire Coordinating Group to be the sponsoring agency of said staff ride.
2. A Staff Ride Coordinator.
3. A Staff Ride Committee.
4. A “ management code” because almost everyone you ask, “ Hey…do you want to…..?”, you have to be prepared to recite it every time someone replies, “Sure…do you have a management code?”
5. Funding to pay for lots of things, even if everybody who participates either as a facilitator, SME, student, instructor, or grunt has their own management code and authorization to use it. FYI…grunts set up the signs, pick up people at the airport, set up the conference room, drive the vans that take people to the field exercise and at least a thousand other tasks that need to be done before, during and after every staff ride.
6. Funding to pay for at least a thousand other costs associated with sponsoring every staff ride before, during and after the event such as paying for the conference room where your meetings, tye training sessions, vans to transport everyone around with, banquet and “after action” session that will accomodate about 100 to 150 people.
7. Highly respected and recognized guest speakers in the wildfire management field to be lecturers during different parts of the staff ride. Dr. Putnam attended the staff ride I went on both as an SME, because he had been on the fire as a ‘single resource Smokejumper-at-large” who served as a “sector boss” to fill out the original Battlement Creek Fire Team and he was a guest speaker. At the staff ride I attended, they went around the room to every attendee and expected them to stand up, introduce themselves, and state why they came, and what they got out of the exercise. That certainly included myself as a SME. Shawna didn’t place any restrictions on what I said either to the groups of students who cycled through my ‘stand” or on what I said during my after dinner speech and I told it exactly how it happened, as did Dr. Putnam on his stand and during his official presentation speech. But of course whatever we said wasn’t memorialized and so it was either ignored, or soon forgotten by everyone outside of hearing what we said in that moment. And FYI…that took awhile since there were about 150 people in attendance although many just stood up and said I agree with what he/she said since most people attended in groups from common agencies that dinner and speech program took several hours. The table Bill, Hardy and I sat at was shared by a contingent of high ranking officers from the Los Angeles Fire Department. One interesting side note, most of the “grunts” who worked on the staff ride were members of either Shawna’s hotshot crew, the San Juan (National Forest) Hotshots or the current Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew who both attended in large groups. I don’t know if everyone from both crews were there, but there was a lot of them there. It was a big deal to have current Mormon Lake Hotshots there because their home district on the Coconino still lives the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster as part of their daily lives, in part because of their in- house memorial almost everyone passes on a daily basis. That fire isn’t ancient history there. And FYI…if you DON’T have two entire hotshot crews to use as grunts, good luck findinding all of the grunts you are going to need to put on a successful staff ride. The driver who was assigned to the van that was put at the disposal of Bill, Hardy and I for sight seeing and our private trip to the memorial sites at the Grand Junction Airport, the actual fire scar, and the Grand Mesa Fire Department one on I-70 was a current Mormon Lake Squad Boss.Shawna was a very gracious hostess who even took the three of us out to lunch and she bought while we told her we didn’t like a fuckin’ thing about how they were putting on the staff ride. Bill and I had to take Hardy outside half way through the lunch and talk him off the ledge because he was really pissed off, wheras I had had months to calm down and Bill just had a “fuck it…let’s just have a good time while we are here attitude.” Of course Hardy had worked for years and had been good friends with the “single resource Smokejumper” who had served as the Official Scapegoat, Fall Guy, and Sacrificial Lamb sector boss who had been assigned all of the blame for everyone else who fucked up on the fire and he went to his death as a broken hearted man who had been emotionally destroyed by the unfair blame that he had endured. So to Hardy…it was even more personal than it was to me, whereas Bill didn’t give a fuck in general he had see too much bullshit in his U.S. Forest Service career to let that nonsense get in the way of our three man reunion party and fuck off week. Bill always had been a party animal…even by hotshot standards.
8. I’m tired of typing on this post, just take my word for it, you need a really big pool of people to draw from to be students, SME’s, facilitators, and grunts and a really big pot of money to pay for lots of people and things. Most WLF who are at the middle grade and UP, in addition to “being somebody” from wherever they are from, might get to go to ONE (1) staff ride during their entire career if they are lucky and if they have it as part of their Training Plan for a few decades. I think the average staff ride costs several hundred thousand dollars of tax payer money once all expenses including lost time for wages is calculated in. The only criticism I have ever heard about Staff Rides is that they aren’t very cost effective in terms of their “cost to benefit” ratio since they reach only a very small numbers of trainees in a world that is starved for training dollars since training is the first thing that always gets cut out of every budget.
Anyway. I’m tired of typing on one of my trademarked Mother Of All Posts (MOAP) But I did cut and paste what Staff Ride facilitators need to be ready to do.
I am also going to find and probably cut and pasted an exempt from my book that is in a very rough draft that describes most of my own staff ride experience so you can kind of get an idea of what mine was like if you want to know. I think there is some serious misconceptions or misunderstandings of what a staff ride entails. There just isn’t any place for people like Joy or Sonny on a staff ride.. I say that because Joy has always thought she should have been invited to the first one…and every one after that. But…that just isn’t how things work in your government. Nobody who is anybody cares what Joy or Sonny experienced, saw or think about what they saw or experienced on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So…to sum up HAL 9000, when El Jefe and Omna International say’s “anyone” can schedule a Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride…they didn’t mean you…or me. It’s just all part of the grand charade, you aren’t supposed to take most of what they say seriously, they are just giving the public a reach-a-round so they can feel good about the way all of their tax dollars being spent on Staff Rides.
Facilitator Tips
Individuals who plan to facilitate a staff ride should read the Wildland Fire Staff Ride Guide prior to conducting the event. This guide provides a thorough explanation of the logistical and instructional considerations for a successful event.
The following tips have been collected from facilitators of recent staff rides and should be considered a supplement to the complete Staff Ride guide. If you have a suggestion or tip, please submit it through the staff ride feedback feature.
Prior to the staff ride there are several preparation actions a facilitator should do:
Research a variety of information sources and become well-versed on the incident in order to be able to answer questions from participants.
Walk the ground at least once with all support cadre so that you know where the stands are and can accurately orient participants when you take the entire group to the site.
Provide “read-ahead” suggestions, the event schedule, and travel directions to the participants at least two to three weeks in advance.
While an investigation report is a primary source of information, it should not be the only source of information that is used. Facilitators are encouraged to rent and watch the movie Courage Under Fire. Although this movie is a fictional drama, it provides a good perspective on the barriers that can be encountered during an incident investigation.
During the staff ride some facilitation techniques to consider include:
Use a sand table or other terrain model to provide an orientation of the site and sequence of events prior to the start of the actual field visit.
If you have a large number of participants, break them into smaller conference groups of 10-12 individuals each. Provide a knowledgeable conference group leader for each of these smaller groups with an overall facilitator to coordinate movement and adherence to planned timeframes.
Manage the group by providing activity and departure time cues at the start of each “stand.”
Orient the group to key geographic features and review relevant events at the start of each “stand” so participants can build the overall picture of the incident in their mind.
Don’t get caught up in being a narrator–encourage group discussion, interaction, and debate. Tactical decision games (TDGS) are one method to do that. Facilitators should feel free to use any method that they are comfortable with. If you do use the TDGS, hand them out to the participants as you leave the “stand” – that is prior to the “stand” where the participants will respond to them. This will allow participants time to think about the dilemma.
Other facilitation methods to encourage interaction include presentations by first-hand witnessess from the incident, open-ended discussion questions designed for your target audience, and assigned participant briefings that require pre-study research.
Be sure to allow some discretionary time for participants to do some exploring on their own sometime during the staff ride.
It is very easy to run short of time at the end of the day. Make sure to save enough time at the end of the event for a final integration, allowing individuals to discuss and share their “takeaways” from their assessment of the event.
Have fun with the group.
FYI…I don’t want anyone to ever make the mistake of thinking Shawna Legarza is where she is at because she is a woman. Shawna is where she is at because she is really smart, really tough, she is a very good soldier, and she has exceptional command presence in spite of the fact she is only about 5 feet tall and she is a woman.
Shawna took all of the bullshit I threw at her and in the end she said, “You are more than welcome to have your opinion about what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire and express it to whom ever you would like to however you would like to express it, but for the purposes of this staff ride, we are going to follow the official investigative report.”
And by golly…I really respected her for how she told me and the others which included Dr. Putnam to fuck off. And she was performing in a position that normally would have been way over her pay grade as “just” a hotshot crew boss at the time.
Oh…and one more thing. The “cost to benefit” ratio is exactly why the YHF Staff Ride SHOULD be made available on-line for everyone to benefit from. It is possible and they intend WLF to be able to “attend” Staff Rides in the virtual cyber world and thereby increasing their cost to benefit ratio exponentially and thereby justify the enormous expense of creating them.
It is what I consider it be a CRIMINAL offense NOT to put the YHF Staff Ride on-line and is a real abuse of the power that is ENTRUSTED to the public servants who have made that decision, if that is in fact what they have done.
I didn’t even notice it wasn’t on the list the other day when I published the staff ride library link, WTKTT did. I have always just assumed the reason it wasn’t there yet, was because they were still finalizing it with their beta rides, whatever a beta ride is? Actually…I think I do know, Beta Rides are used to work out the bugs and kinks, but I think that window has now closed and it is way past time for it to be on-line along with all of the other Staff Rides that cost a small fortune in tax dollars to create.
Oh…and I was still working when I was first asked to participate on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride. But since I was on the committee for several months before I finally got tired of those assholes taking turns shitting on me every time I said something and finally told them to take their staff ride and shove it up theirs asses. But…I was retired by the time the very first staff ride was put on and so I attended that as a retiree.
Anyway…the funny part of the story is when Shawna Legarza called up my supervisor, who was the Special Agent -in-Charge (SAC) for BLM Arizona (but all of us worked for the BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement & Security) and convinced him it was in his best interest as the SAC to let his ASAC participate not only as a committee member for their staff ride but as a Subject Matter Expert as well.
Fortunately my supervisor and I went way back and so he just walked into my office one day with a puzzled look on his face to tell me about the strange telephone call he had gotten from someone named Shawna Legarza about a disaster fire from some 30 years earlier. And after I told him what was going on, he just said, “Yeah sure…call her back and tell her you can participate if that’s something you want to do and I will pay for it out of our budget if need be…no problem.”
But…that isn’t the response you will get from most supervisors when you ask them to take man hours or dollars out of THEIR program or budget in order to make your staff ride a success, even if the supervisors you call work for FIRE. It’s a dog eat dog world out there.
Actually…I told that story a little off, the very first person to talk to my supervisor about my help on their staff ride even before Shawna did, was the BLM Arizona FMO to lay the foundation for Shawna’s follow up call.
Clarification,
The Committee I am referring to was Shawna’s original staff ride development committee. That was the committee that developed the entire staff ride from nothing. That would have been the time to tell the truth, but none of those assholes were the slight bit interested in telling the truth. Although Shawna made me feel really good with the wrap-a-round sgphe gave me because she can really turn on the charm and she you is highly trained to, “Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.” and fuck you over every which way but loose with a smile on her face while never losing her cool 😎 so that in the end, you thank her for such s pleasant experience when she finally says, “Have a nice day!”
“I mean…say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism Dude, at least its an ethos.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b_29yvYpf4w
I am so embarrassed 😞! Now that I think about it, maybe the plan all along was for Shawna to make me feel good while at the same time, her posse of former hotshot crew bosses beat me black and blue with the old bar soap in the sock treatment?
What a dumbass I was.
Whoops, I called what Shawna gave me a wrap-a-round in the previous post rather than using what she gave me the correct name, which is a reach-a-round. And if you don’t know what a reach-a-round is…forget I even used that term.
And by “Have a nice day.” I mean it to sound like some police officers do so that many police departments have made it a violation of departmental policy to ever say that to anyone after they finish their contact because they way in which they say it…can make people explode with anger and that gives the officers an excuse to arrest them or at least be able to laugh at them because the citizens go ape shit crazy on the officers dash cameras.
And my rough draft of the chapter about the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride was even rougher than I remember it and so I am going to try and work on it some and then post it for my adoring readers who just can’t wait for my tome to be finished and published. And that is because, in the final analysis, my experience on that on that staff ride was the reason I started writing a book in the first place. So it’s kinda important to me.
And just in case I got a little oblique there for my own good, I think Shawna made it to where she is at because she’s the whole package, a sycophant for management who was always willing to carry their AND she was a woman.
I know that there were many men who had the same damning predilection for betraying their values and principles in exchange for their professional advancement, but what put Shawna over the top in the end is that she was willing to do those things AND she checked the minority box.
Shawna charmed everyone she came into contact with so she could make her betrayal of the WLF on the fire line appear to be legitimate. She fucked me over. She fucked Ted over. And she fucked every one on my crew over and the Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew over.
Shawna betrayed herself and every one else she had to do as she sold her soul so that some day she would get the ultimate payoff to go as high as she could.
And in her case, it ended really high up as the Washington Office Director of Aviation and Fire Management. Promotions, baby. That’s how it works.
Shawna Legarza and all of the people like her (Mike Dudley) as truly despicable human beings.
And just in case I got a little oblique there for my own good, I think Shawna made it to where she is at because she’s the whole package, a sycophant for management who was always willing to carry their “water” AND she was a woman.
Shawna Legarza and all of the people like her (Mike Dudley) “are” truly despicable human beings.
Promotions above a certain level that is. And that “level” is normally defined as “field operations” and whatever that entails and duties that fit into that general job description depending on whatever the specific personnel series you want to talk about from Forestry Technician to Special Agent. The key is always the percentage of the job that is based on “field operations” which was a job description I never made it past. I was offered the prize, but at the critical moment in my career, I turned it down and I turned States evidence and went into the witness protection program instead. 🙂
Which by the way, was for the last 15 years of my career. I was never promoted again for the last 15 years I spent on the job.
But the good news is, I had plenty of time to rack up the within grade step increases and so I retired as a Step 8. There are only a only a total of 10 steps within each GS Grade. And the system is designed to take you an entire career (30 years) to earn all 10 steps even if you are never promoted up another grade again.
I was able to leap from a Step 1 to a final Step 8 over just 15 years because I received four (4) Quality Step Increases which is a really big award because each QSI bumps you up one step.
Every old time employee out there who reads this knows that four QSI’s over 15 years is a really big deal since each step is worth as much as $100,000 (or more) during the average career and subsequent retirement depending on lots of factors like your final hourly wage and how long you live.
15 fuckin’ years without ever being promoted again because I was blackballed by management. Life can be a real bitch (non gender specific) and then you die..
But…I have already written wayyyyy to much. 🙂
A GS-13 Step 8 that is.
And yes…I applied for lots of GS-14 jobs during that 15 year period. Management liked to consistently place me in the top 3 for the final interview just so they could fuck me over in the end. And I liked to keep applying for those jobs, and consistently making the top three and getting fucked over in the end just because I wanted them to know I wouldn’t ever give up.
By the end…most top managers didn’t even know why they were supposed to fuck me over because of the natural retirements of the older managers…they just did it because top management had been doing it for so many year and the reason didn’t matter any more.
And just FYI, most employees go for their entire careers without ever getting even one (1) QSI.
Especially those employees who work for the U.S. Forest Service. That is one of the cheapest fuckin’ agencies out there.
So…the bottom line is, go to work for the BLM if you can…you just have to be willing to work for an agency that in general lacks a moral center.
But…there are lots of upsides in the equation, they are a lot more generous with the QSI ‘s for one thing. 🙂
I bet I never would have gotten even one QSI myself if I had stayed with the USFS for my entire career.
But…I was very well aware of that fact (although not to the extent of it or just how bad it was) before I ever applied to the BLM for a job in the first place.
So…what does that say about me? Wait, don’t answer that…it was a rhetorical question.
Fuck me…how on earth did I ever start down this road? Never mind.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYoNL4g5VgP
I mean…it’s not that I am counting or anything, well…I guess I just did.
But I went from a GS-3 Step 1 to a GS-13 in the first half of my career, which was 15 years.
And then I remained a GS-13 for the entire second half of my career, which was 15 years. I really fucked up someplace.
Actually, I remember that place in time so vividly…it’s like it just happened this morning.
But everyone who knows me well already knows the story. And if you don’t know the story by now…it doesn’t matter any more. 🙂
Although everyone who has participated in this thread for any length of time…knows that a very large portion of the U.S. Forest Service also lacks a moral center. So…I guess you just pick your poison and hope for the best.
All in all…I don’t have any complaints about how my career went, but I sometimes bitch (non gender specific) anyway just to stay in practice.
Okay…just one more little house cleaning chore regarding my entire somewhat bizarre written journey today.
I have written this before several years ago, but just as a refresher in case you aren’t current on all of my posts, the reason Shawna had strict orders to get me to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride had absolutely nothing to do with my manning the training station or “stand” that I did. Staff Rides are designed to be fully functional without any Subject Matter Experts on scene, SME’s, who were actually on the fire are just nice to have if they happen to be available.
The reason Shawna had orders to get me to the staff ride if at all possible, was because one of my very closest friends at the time was the Director Of Fire Management and Aviation for Region 5, California and the Pacific Islands.
And as such, he was very influential in the FIRE world because his budget was bigger than all of the other nine regions budgets were…combined.
Anyway, this guy (Ed) had also been a hotshot crew boss in his youth on the Coconino National Forest, (the Blue Ridge Hotshots) as well and we were buddies for years while we both worked on the Santa Fe.
So…this same guy had been the Incident Commander on the Dude Fire Disaster so he had some PTSD demons of his own to deal with. And he thought that I had some PTSD issues as well from the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster, but he was wrong about that…I just had some anger management issues that were residual from the fire and living in my head rent free that he and I had discussed over the years…you know, mostly when we had been drinking and bullshitting each other.
Our fire gods had specifically ordered us not to give a fuck about what happened to the Mormon Lake Hotshots…so we didn’t. It may seen odd given how things are done today, but after one meeting with Bill Buck we first got home, the fire was never discussed by any of us ever again. and that included within our own crew at our home base.
It was like it had never even happened. For one thing, they had us mopping up the area where those guys had been killed the very next day. I can still vividly remember the brightly colored flagging that fluttered in the breeze that marked where each body had laid just a few hours earlier in the harsh glare of the sun.
It was an absolutely beautiful day with crystal clear blue skies, bright sunshine and a bengal breeze. The huge black scar of the fire and it’s fingers melted slowly into the vibrant green of the valley stretching below us all of the way down to the Grand Valley in the distance.
Anyway…he thought I needed to go to the staff ride as part of my healing process, but I just wanted to go to have a few laughs with my old buddies and take some walks down memory lane. But this same guy called in a favor and got his counterpart for Region 4, the Intermountain Region to tell Shawna to put up with my bullshit if it meant getting me to the staff ride as an SME.
Ed said I needed to go “for the kids on the fire line today.” And so I did…end of story. But in the end…I failed the kids on the fire line today because I couldn’t convince them that they needed to tell the truth about what really happened on the fire. So…
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> …it is way past time for it ( the Yarnell Hill Staff
>> Ride digital prodcut ) to be on-line along with
>> all of the other Staff Rides that cost a small
>> fortune in tax dollars to create.
It already IS. Has been for quite some time.
Just not where it ( normally ) SHOULD be… and THAT is what remains ‘bizarre’.
Thanks to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA… the actual ‘digitial product’ was obtained through a valid Open Records Request, and has always been sitting online ( in all of its bullshit glory ) at the following PUBLIC location(s)…
The 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Facilitator’s Guide…
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m1etsyqrn1kt211/Yarnell%20Facilitator%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
Special version of the YHF Staff Ride Facilitator’s guide used for the ‘Family Input’ trial staff ride that took place on April 5, 2016…..
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3pa53281pl6m9p/April%20Staff%20Ride%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
So ‘they’ can’t ever say it doesn’t exist or was never finished.. The only thing that remains to be learned is why ‘they’ are not PUBLISHING it and making it truly ‘available’ along with all the other staff ride products already bought-and-paid-for with taxpayer dollars.
No kidding…you are right once again, the entire staff rude is there. I guess they are betting on the fact hardly anyone knows it’s there? Otherwise, why not just go ahead and put it on line with all of the other Staff Rides in the library?
The staff ride sounds like a stiff ride. Stiff the taxpayer and play the game called house wins every time.
Gary gets it right and gives us the truth. Yes some claim to win after standing up to the juggernaut grant their heart doesn’t quit from the hassle and –after perhaps twenty plus years in courts and expending bundles of money. Justice is biased to those with the treasure and government has the bundle. If you have a good lawyer they have 150 to combine heads to defeat you and certain your delays will run into years and your hair will grey.
So yes, Gary knows the game–and we know the truth. Perhaps that is enough just to watch a few squirm–likely as far as our efforts will do. But that gives us a smile and to know that a few of the children and Moms and Dads and other friends and concerned people get the facts adds to the good citizen books.
And of course … the link is kinda important
( https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/why-accidents-like-notre-dame-fire-happen/587956/?utm_source=pocket-newtab )
RTS,
This article discusses theories that seem to support my positions on the 10, the 18, and LCES and undermine what you so strongly believe and that is all of those rules are important.
This article also appears to me to bolster one of the key criticism our critics have of our thread and our opinion of the SAIR written by the SAIT.
So…I’m curious as to why you would post this article and what it’s salient points are that you like?
What I got from it was RTS was saying have a duckey day😀
🌴It had both viewpoints is my takeaway🌴
🌞 🌞 🌞
Have the best day ever Gary😇🙏👍💪🙌🔥
Oh yeah Gary
Lets use our emoticons to tell a story
😶 (quiet for years)
🙌 (Gave it to God)
🙈🙉🙊 (the attitude of locals and county and state and federal)
🍀Irish God(s) shine on Tex🍀 ( Sonny always has been the shining light in this as he told me this day June 30, 2013.. “we gotta get the hell out of here”…I would not have been able to gather data all these years had he not kept at it that day…
The story is out in certain areas…some coroners know it…there is no turning back now…Gary, there is no joy in doing this but its the hardest thing to ever do knowing the whole enchilada.
😞
Well okay then…tell me already.
Reply to Joy Collura post on April 30, 2019 at 10:17 am
>> Joy Collura said…
>>
>> The story is out in certain areas… some coroners know it…
Coroners?
Well… if that doesn’t make a person sit up, pay attention, and say “Holy, coverups, batman!”…I guess nothing would.
Are you saying that even the ‘autopsy reports’ that were released ( including, perhaps, the ‘drug testing’ results? ) were… somehow…
What’s the right word?… “incomplete”?
Yes…I think it has two take-away points, both of which are antithetical to beliefs that RTS has previously stated. And I hope you have a ball of yarn day.🧶
Gary,
I think the author is fairly accurate on the fact that accidents and catastrophes like wildland fire fatalities are inevitable and a “part of life” as he states.
You’re going to have to be more specific on what you believe are “two take-away points, both of which are antithetical to beliefs that RTS has previously stated.”
Well..you answered my question by stating, “I think the author is fairly accurate on the fact that accidents and catastrophes like wildland fire fatalities are inevitable and a “part of life” as he states.”
And of course that is a philosophy shared by Dr. Putnam as well and I used to believe it also. But during the past 6 years as I have for the first time in my life really thought about WLF safety, especially every hotshot death on the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fires, I have come to realize that none of those deaths were an accident.
All of those deaths were caused by conscious decisions followed by subsequent deliberate actions and therefore were 100 % preventable deaths had four men who were in charge followed the standardized and universally accepted WLF safety rules.
And as I have stated before, I would bet the death of Brian Hughes of the Arrowhead Hotshots on the Ferguson Fire was preventable had best practices and standard safety protocols been followed such as the proper use of a spotter. I think the other hotshot deaths (I think there were two) in recent years from tree strikes may also been preventable had established safety procedures been properly followed.
I recall another death in recent years of a highly experienced smokejumper who was killed by a falling widow maker from a tree he was cutting down on a small fire and he wasn’t even wearing his hard hat. Which is exactly the kind of things smokejumpers do because they are so cool, the normal rules that govern most WLF just don’t apply to them.
Anyway, I have lost track of what I thought you thought, but here are the two salient points I was referring to.
1. Our very attempts to stave off disaster by introducing safety systems ultimately increase the overall complexity of the systems, ensuring that some unpredictable outcome will rear its ugly head no matter what.
And that is how I think of WLF safety rules to a great extent. And for others out there, I can tell you that all of the rules came into place after firefighters were killed on fires, they then made a rule that you they shouldn’t do that any more.
And it seems to me I have argued against all of the rules since Day 1 and you have argued for all of the rules since Day 1. For example, I think everything that needs to be covered is covered in the 10 Standard Firefighting Orders and the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out should be abolished because they are unnecessary, redundant and in some cases just plain silly that were taught to me by cartoon characters.
I never needed a cartoon character to teach me that if you feel like taking a nap near the fire line, then that is a situation that shouts “Watch Out”. I would have hoped that if I had been the kind of WLF who needed to be told not to take naps near the fireline, or naps on fires anywhere, rather than teach me not to do that by making learn a rule against doing so by rote, they would just have made me seek other employment by firing me instead.
I know without knowing it, that the rule came into effect because somebody was killed because they were taking a nap near the fire line. In what parallel universe do WLF take naps while on the fire line anyway? I mean, hotshots often accidentally fall asleep for short naps during short breaks while cutting fireline because they have been awake for a couple of days but that is under the watchful eyes of crew or squad bosses and while sitting in tool order with everyone else.
Thankfully, BLM Alaska State Director Tom Allen, who was either co-chair to BLM Arizona State Director Les Rosenkrance or his deputy of the SAIT for the South Canyon Fire Disaster decided that WLF had enough rules and making more of them wasn’t the way to go, but to instead re-emphasize the rules that were already in place. I think they should just add a number 11 to the 10 standard rules.
11. Do not fight wildfire while you have your head up your ass.
2. What makes the Boeing disaster so frustrating is the relative obviousness of the problem in retrospect. Psychologists and economists have a term for this; it’s called “hindsight bias,” the tendency to see causes of prior events as obvious and predictable, even when the world had no clue leading up to them.
And like I said, I have lost track of where you are at on this, but that was what our detractors have accused us of since Day 1 and how the SAIT excused Marsh and Steed in their SAIR. They said we only knew it was a bad idea to hike down that chimney in front of a racing wild fire because of hindsight bias. And it looked like a reasonable decision to them and something they would have done as well because the Helms’ property looked “so close.”
I’m sorry, but that is simply not true. I know they shouldn’t have hiked down that chimney at any time mush less in front of a racing wild fire because everybody knows that is one of the worst things you can do on a wildfire. There was one of the widows who said her husband had told her that no one should ever go down a chimney, chute or canyon on a fire while they were deer hunting. The crew knew not to do that, they knew they were wrong, most, if not all of them didn’t want to go down that chimney. We know Steed argued against that idea three times.
There are many other professions out there that routinely kill their workers such as police and structural firefighters. Which other profession make up silly rules that are taught by cartoon characters every time they have some one killed on the job?
I mean…there have been cases where police officers have been shot in the head while either sitting in their cruisers asleep or doing paperwork at night. Did any police departments ever make up a rule that said, “If you feel like taking a nap while sitting upright in your patrol car at night…that is a situation that Shouts Watch Out!”
Nope.
You just can’t make up a rule to cover every possible way a WLF can get killed on a fire and for decades, we as an industry tried to do that. I guess I am of the Paul Gleason school of thought on speed because he made up a new rule whereas I just want to eliminate rules and do like Tom Allen said, re-emphasize teaching the basics which I thin are covered in the 10.
And just FYI to others out there, for most of my time as a hotshot there were just “13 Situations That Shouted Watch Out” and then over time they added five more, but I’m pretty sure they didn’t save any lives by doing so. It just made some managers feel better because they were able to say they adderessed the problem by writing new code to be programmed into the heads of WLF.
In fact, (I have posted this link before) I am of the Sgt. Phil Esterhaus School Of Thought who starred in my favorite training videos for the entire time I was majoring in Criminal Justice in college…”Hill Street Blues.”
Therefore, I think there should just be ONE (1) wild land firefighter rule, “Let’s Be Careful Out There.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_pIkkzDagsY
Everything contained in the 10, the 18 and even Paul Gleason’s LCES should be hammered over and over again in wild land firefighter beginning, intermediate and advanced and in-service training courses, but not made into rules that need to be routinely memorized by rote.
I don’t know how they came up with this number exactly, but the instructor staff at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Georgia like to tell their classes that they are responsible for teaching 1000 separate and specific things that have been identified to those who attend FLETC.
Even those who create and maintain the obsessively anal retentive and highly structured separate training programs at FLETC don’t try to create safety lists of things for students to learn to recite by rote.
They just hammer those things into their students heads over and over again and then they test on what they hammered over and over again and hammer it home one more time as they go over the weekly tests.
In other words, I think concentrating on making WLF specifically memorize the following rules is condescending, juvenile, insulting, comical, repetitive, and most importantly ignores other equally important basic WLF protocols while overemphasizing these select few simply because they were identified as being the primary causal factors in what otherwise were random deaths through what I think was probably an oversimplification of what really happened since no serious incident is ever the result of only one or two things but rather a series of poor choices resulting from a domino, cascading and Swiss Cheese effect many factors that are intertwined and inseparable.
Fire not scouted and sized up.
In country not seen in daylight.
Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior.
Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
Instructions and assignments not clear.
No communication link between crew members and supervisors.
Constructing line without safe anchor point.
Building line downhill with fire below.
Attempting frontal assault on fire.
Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
Weather gets hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Getting frequent spot fires across line.
Terrain or fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Feel like taking a nap near fire-line
But…if I was King For a Day I might keep the 10 Standard Firefighting Rukes just for old times sake.
Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
Know what your fire is doing at all times.
Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
Identify escape routes and safety zones and make them known.
Post a lookout where there is possible danger
Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
Maintain prompt communication with your forces, your supervisor, and adjoining forces.
Give clear instructions and insure they are understood
Maintain control of your forces at all times.
Fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first
But seriously, do you think we really need to remind WLF supervisors they must “Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively” and the nine others rules?
Or do you think we need to find new supervisions who don’t need lists to remind them they must, “Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively?”
But most importantly, what I have learned over the past six (6) years in addition to what I already knew. is that I can’t believe or accept anything that is taught on this web site because if you lie to me once, I will always be looking for the next lie.
And that’s a real fuckin’ shame.
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/main_library.html
And of course I don’t know how widespread this belief is now, or even when I was on the fire line, but…I was under the impression from others who were wiser and more experienced than I was that all of the rules weren’t for the benefit of wild land firefighters.
I was taught that the rules were for the benefit of wild land firefighting management because whenever somebody was killed or seriously injured, they could go down the list an say it happened because they violated this rule or that rule, so nothing was management or the agency’s fault, and so blame the individual firefighter because we told them not to do that.
I now think that perception that the rules were just a CYA for management wasn’t completely fair and accurate, but I do think there is some truth to it.
It’s like everything…it’s complicated and heavily nuanced. And I am often conflicted and always happy I’m not in charge of anything anymore since I can just throw things against the wall to see what sticks without any real life consequences for getting it wrong.
Oh…and one more thing. The 1000 individual, distinct and separate tasks or things that FLETC says they have to teach every cadet, is just for the entry level non agency specific general course which is called “Police Training.” The number of things to teach and know goes up exponentially from that number for every advanced course after that one. But still…there are no lists to memorize by rote other than keep your head out of your ass while on the job.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
May 1, 2019 at 11:51 am
>> Gay Olson said…
>>
>> But most importantly, what I have learned
>> over the past six (6) years in addition to
>> what I already knew. is that I can’t believe
>> or accept anything that is taught on this
>> web site because if you lie to me once,
>> I will always be looking for the next lie.
>>
>> And that’s a real fuckin’ shame.
>>
>> https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/main_library.html
From that page… the ‘Library’ to pick from…
——————————————————
– 1910 Idaho Fire
– Bar Harbor Fire
– Battlement Creek Fire
– Blackwater Fire
– Cart Creek Fire
– Cerro Grande Fire
– Dude Fire
– Loop Fire
– Mack Lake Fire
– Mann Gulch Fire
– Rattlesnake Fire
– Rock Creek Fire
– South Canyon Fire
– Thirtymile Fire
————————————————–
Yarnell isn’t even there.
Not even an ‘icon’ for it on their ‘interactive map’.
We only lost 19 at once. No big whoop, right?
Nothing to see ( or even learn ) there.
Move along.
And I should have said, “accept at face value” because a great deal of information from the staff rides listed on that website will be factual.
But that is the real problem and why their lies are so insidious, they are intermingled with the truth and therefore are much harder and in most cases, simply impossible to identify which leaves me disbelieving everything they say until I have confirmed their veracity by my own groundproofing which is impossible in almost every instance.
I mean…I was on the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster and witnessed most of what happened first hand and I still don’t know everything they are lying about. I have identified many of their lies and Dr. Putnam identified many more, but I seriously doubt we know everything they lied about.
The reason that the Yarnell Hill Fire is not included on the Fireline Leadership website and in that list is because it was an Arizona STATE Wildland Fire. All the others are Federal fires.
That is what the AZ Forestry Bill Boyd and OMNA International say …
Random Thoughts For The Day
1. Except for the slaughterhouse industry. I think the average Undocumented Alien (UDA) probably gets about the same amount of training in the average meat packing house as the average wild land firefighter does?
The biggest difference is that the companies pay for the UDA’s to receive that training and they get paid to attend. Whereas the FIRE agencies force WLF hopefuls to pay for their own training and attend that training put on by private contractors for free.
Is that the agencies fault? Nope. It’s YOU PEOPLES fault because you have allowed your political representatives to starve the FIRE agency budgets because YOU PEOPLE want a first class wild land firefighting force, but you don’t want to pay for it.
2. I really hate to give any traction to Sad Sacks and the GMIHC opinion that the WLF safety rules are “hillbilly” because every one of them was paid for by WLF lives, but…maybe they could use some updating?
I think in the really old days when the Forest Ranger emptied out the bars and rounded up all of the farmers and ranchers to go up on the mountain to fight forest fires..probably having farmer John lay down to take a nap near the fire line was a bigger problem than it is today?
I also think they could be gone through by the federal Department Of Redundancy Department for you know…some redundancy redundancy reduction?
Today’s workforce was raised on video games and TV 📺 after all and there should be some effort to at least try and hold their attention long enough to memorize the rules by rote, however silly some of them seem now because they aren’t silly, just their presentation and format is.
And some of them fit in the Knowledge, Skills and Abilitues section for WLF, not in the safety section.
Because like I said, during my formative years in the USFS my world view was pretty narrow. It didn’t reach beyond our Fire Base, our field work, airports, fire camps and fire lines.
But…I wasn’t taught the rules were for us, they were for THEM. And if that is still a problem along with the kids of today thinking they are Hillbilly, maybe some changes need to be made to accommodate idiots like Sad Sack, because he might not be alone in his thinking?
In fact, and just as a reminder, there wouldn’t have been a single hotshot death from being burned to death in the history of hotshots from had four men not made the very same bad decision on four separate fires.
But since all four men did make the very same bad decision on four separate fires, the total number of hotshot dead from being burned to death now totals 43.
And I only need one (1) digit in order to list the very same bad decision all four men made on the Loop. Battlement Creek, South Canyon, and Yarnell Hill Fires now that I am a student of all four fires.
Imagine that…zero hotshot deaths from being burned to death had this ONE (1) rule been followed. And that ONE (1) rule is:
1. Do not work or hike in canyons that are natural chimneys for wild fires either in front of, or above said fires…period, end of story.
That’s it…pretty fuckin’ simple.
Whoops,
I mischaracterized what Dr. Putnam has written in the past. He didn’t say that all WLF deaths aren’t preventable, he said that you can’t successfully fight wildfires and follow all of the wild land firefighting rules at the same time.
And I agree with the world’s foremost wildfire fatality investigator in these 2 extremely important points:
1. Wildland firefighter fatalities are preventable.
2. It’s impossible to follow every single rule all of the time & successfully fight fire. (the rules effectively serve as a guide to absolve management from any fault & create a convenient check-off list to use for placing all of the blame on firefighters instead of management )
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/fire_safety_up_in_smoke.pdf
Story Time
I did go on a fire once and I was going lackadaisical, panic, have muddled thoughts, and be indecisive, but thank goodness I reviewed my 10 Standard Firefighting Orders and it said I should, Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. and Act decisively so I did that instead.
Although like I said, for the first time in my life I am giving WLF safety some serious thought. And now that I think about it, I don’t know of any other inherently dangerous profession that spends so little to train its people before it throws them into the gaping maw of a fiery dragon 🐉 up on the mountain 🏔, so maybe we need a few more lists?
Marsh definitely should have reviewed the 10, 18 and LCES prior to repeatedly ordering his crew to their deaths. I just trying to work through some things in my head. And that ain’t easy since I’m me.
Stay in a 400 plus Acer burned area or go down a brush filled canyon in front of a flaming front of a moving fire to a one acer cleared ranch Safety Zone????? I agree with you Gary it dose not take a Genius to figure that out with out the 10 and 18,
Where is your best safety????
**
** THE VANESSA PURDY PHOTOGRAPHS – NEW VIDEO CROSSFADES
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 21, 2019 at 2:11 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Both ( the Vanessa Purdy ) photographs indicate suggestive evidence
>> of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing operation on the
>> afternoon of June 30, 2013
I am still ‘neutral’ about what the two Vanessa Purdy photographs might be ‘indicating’ ( I am NOT an FBAN nor a smoke expert )… but here are TWO new video ‘crossfades’ which at least show EXACTLY what the ‘fields of view’ are for BOTH of those Vanessa Purdy photographs.
For BOTH photographs… a ‘crossfade’ takes place into the equivalent Google Earth view… and the LEFT side and RIGHT side SIGHTLINES are indicated with ‘white lines’ extending off into the distance.
So at least we can now see, with a high degree of accuracy, EXACTLY WHERE the ‘smoke’ in those photographs COULD ( or COULD NOT ) have been at the time the photographs were taken.
NOTE: Both photographs are assumed to have been taken circa 4:30 PM that day.
** PURDY PHOTO 1
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – Purdy Photo 1
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/LeAUmxUVS2s
** PURDY PHOTO 2
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – Purdy Photo 2
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/u7UldNlKd3I
WTKTT,
Fine work once again. Thank you.
Two points of clarification are necessary:
(1) Why are the sightlines of the two photographs taken from approximately the same area dissimilar, i.e. one broad and one narrow? I thought sightlines were from the perspective of the photographer or from the perspective of the one / thing being photographed.
(2) How did you conclude the photos were taken around 4:30 PM (1630)?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 27, 2019 at 8:25 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Two points of clarification are necessary:
>>
>> (1) Why are the sightlines of the two photographs taken from approximately
>> the same area dissimilar, i.e. one broad and one narrow? I thought
>> sightlines were from the perspective of the photographer or from
>> the perspective of the one / thing being photographed.
>>
>> (2) How did you conclude the photos were taken around 4:30 PM (1630)?
** RE (1)
It’s legitimate to use the ‘sightline’ approach used in these two videos, whereby you concentrate on the LEFT EDGE ( vertical ) and the RIGHT EDGE ( vertical ) sightlines… and then extrapolate them off into the distance. Notice in each photo that the WHITE ‘sightline’ marks are, in fact, equal to the VERTICAL edge of the photographs when viewed from the origin point and the ‘perspective’ of the camera. In other words… if you put VERTICAL lines on both the LEFT and RIGHT edges of a photograph that correspond to the EDGES of the photo… and you extrapolate those into the distance… there really can’t be anything OUTISDE those lines that could have possibly been captured by the camera.
Hence… you now have the complete “field of view” for that photograph.
When you can’t actually SEE ‘landmarks’ that are far in the distance in order to determine ‘sightlines’ ( such as in this case, when all the distant landmarks are obscured by smoke, etc. )… this VERTICAL EDGE approach might not be perfect… but it’s still valid and the results can be considered ‘accurate’.
That being said… the FIRST Purdy photo actually DOES have one small ‘distant landmark’ that verifies the LEFT sightline, and the actual orientation of the camera.
I’m talking about the ‘thin’ orange line on the left side of that photograph after it fades down. Maybe this actually the ‘broad’ versus ‘narrow’ line thing you were actually referring to?
That thin / narrow ‘orange’ line is showing you that there is/was this one small spot just above the roof of the trailer where a ‘distant’ point on the Weaver Mountain ridge actually IS still ‘visible’ in the photograph.
Just watch the fade again on that PURDY 1 photo… then watch as the ‘orange line’ appears. It is pointing to the top of the roof and that one, small smoke-free section where you can actually see an identifiable ‘ridge point’ way out there on the Weavers.
Since the sky was ‘clear enough’ at that moment ( over the roof ) to actually SEE that distant point on the Weavers… the ‘orange line’ in the Google Earth view then shows you the farthest extent of ANY smoke and where the ‘clear air’ still was at that time.
** RE ( 2 )
As far as the TIME goes… the reason I have only said ‘circa 4:30 PM’ is because the time(s) for these photos has NOT yet been verified.
But ( at this moment ) I think it can be assumed they were both taken ‘circa’ that time… maybe a little earlier… but I’d still put money on a 4:24 PM to 4:30 PM ‘window’ for the following reasons…
1. I compared both photos to OTHER known photos of the same area taken in this 4:24 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe ( Byron Kimball photos, Blue Ridge photos, etc. )… and they seem to ‘jive’ with those other known photos and known timestamps.
2. One of the articles containing one of the photos actually SAID that ( according to Vanessa Purdy herself ) it was taken “just a few minutes after receiving an emergency 911 evacuation order”. Depending on what “a few minutes” means… it would still ( generally ) put the TIME into that same 4:24 PM to 4:30 PM ‘window’.
3. When I alerted you ( down below ) about the existence of that SECOND Purdy photo sitting on a public web page… I also pointed out that the actual FILENAME of that second Purdy photo sitting on that web server has a TIME of ‘4:30 PM’ harcoded in the filename itself.
What I actually said ( down below ) was…
—————————————————————————————-
On April 20, 2019 at 6:46 pm WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that SECOND ‘Vanessa Purdy’ photo which accompanies the article listed above..
Notice the ‘timestamp’ of 4:30 PM in the image filename itself….
http://outdoorstorms.com/images/YarnellFireImages/YarnellSequence_FireSpread_430PM_TDolan.jpg
—————————————————————————————-
So, until more information emerges, we can ‘take a leap’ and assume that the author of that article ( Dolan? ) actually ‘verified’ the time with either Purdy herself, or some other way, before putting that “430PM” timestamp into the FILENME itself.
Maybe he had access to an ‘original copy’ of that photo… and that actually IS the TIMESTAMP embedded in the EXIF metadata itself…. and it’s accurate.
Followup…
Apologies… only after hitting ‘Send’ did I actually fully ‘grok’ the question you were actually asking above.
You said…
>> (1) Why are the sightlines of the two photographs taken from
>> approximately the same area dissimilar, i.e. one broad and
>> one narrow?
Because one of the photos is a RECTANGLE and the other is a SQUARE.
“PURDY 1” is a normal-ratio rectangle, and so the ‘sightlines end up being a ‘wider wedge’ that if it wasn’t.
“P”URDY 2” ( the annotated version of it found on that public website ) is more of a SQUARE… so the “field of view” wedge has to end up being SMALLER ( narrower ) that it would for a normal rectangular ‘aspect ratio’.
FOOTNOTE: The ‘PURDY 2’ photo is not truly a SQUARE… but it IS ‘smaller’ ( narrower ) than the ‘PURDY 1’ photo… so that’s why the ‘field of view’ for ‘PURDY 2’ also comes out ‘smaller’ ( narrower ).
“Seems to jive” doesn’t work for me on time. Sorry.
You’ve, once again, done amazing things with analysis and scenario recreation with the best tools and available evidence, BUT, we don’t have solid, factual, complete, and irrefutable information on TIMES nor are we certain we have all available evidence for analysis.
Therefore, the possibility of firing operations as a primary causal factor in the crew entrapment , much to the consternation of the powers that be, is still on the table. It’s still on my table until proven otherwise.
The Woodsman
Just “solid” and “factual” and “complete” and “irrefutable information on TIMES” and that’s all you expect?
Are you sure there’s no more?
Oh wait. There’s also “all available evidence for analysis.”
Only that too? Are you sure there is nothing else?
Well, since you asked, I want the whole truth & nothing but the truth unredacted written statements from every single person involved the Yarnell Hill fire, signed under their full commercial liability as public employees. I’d like certified copies mailed to mail sealed with tamper-proof tape so I’m the 1st one to open the package.
Option 2: A secure office space where I can witness the signed complete honest factual accounts by each and every person involved in the Yarnell Hill fire after I individually interview them in person. I want box lunches provided to me & spring water/unsweetened tea with lemon as this will be a no time limit, multi-day procedure. Also a place to pitch my shelter and access to a hot shower.
If I think of anything else, I’ll let you know. Thanks!
Correction: should be “mailed to ME…” not mailed to “mail.”
Let me know when you make this happen so I can clear my calendar. Thanks!
And for option 2, I want Gary Olson with me.
I’ll be there. My calender is pretty much already cleared…you know, all of the time.
Woodsman,
Such an idealist you are.
You posted that you want “the whole truth & nothing but the truth unredacted written statements from every single person involved the Yarnell Hill fire, signed under their full commercial liability as public employees. I’d like certified copies mailed to mail sealed with tamper-proof tape so I’m the 1st one to open the package.”
I think everyone that wants to know the truth about the YH Fire wants that as well. And those that do not want that want just the opposite. Good luck on the “certified copies sealed with tamper-proof tape.” Is there even such a thing as tamper proof-tape?
And then there is your “Option 2: A secure office space where I can witness the signed complete honest factual accounts by each and every person involved in the Yarnell Hill fire after I individually interview them in person. I want box lunches provided to me & spring water/unsweetened tea with lemon as this will be a no time limit, multi-day procedure. Also a place to pitch my shelter and access to a hot shower.”
OMG! A true whining Liberal at its finest.
Do you want your bread buttered or plain?
Are you sure you want just “access to a shower” and not the actual shower itself? Or would you prefer instead of a nice bubble bath?
And definitely, if you think of anything else, let you know.
Here’s a good one for you that I just came across that supports the accidents are inevitable and normal.
“When Making Things Better Only Makes Them Worse
Our very attempts to stave off disaster make unpredictable outcomes more likely.”
Apr 26, 2019 by Erik Larson is an entrepreneur and former research scientist at the University of Texas at Austin, where he specialized in machine learning and natural language processing. He is the author of The Myth of Artificial Intelligence forthcoming from Harvard University Press.
And of course … the link
( https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/why-accidents-like-notre-dame-fire-happen/587956/?utm_source=pocket-newtab )
RTS,
Which part of my requests made you the most uncomfortable?
Woodsman,
What do you think … the box lunches
What I think is that it wasn’t the box lunches, beverages, the access to a shower, or the tamper-proof tape. I think it’s something else.
I just want to say you know, can we…can we all just get along, can, can we get along? Can we stop making it horrible for the old people like me? We are on a countdown now to the truth about the YHF Disaster?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0
Oh…and one more thing. And I don’t even want box lunches at all because those almost always suck. I want executive lunch hours so we can go to restaurants.
Okay, Rodney. I’ll try to be good…but there’s just so much material…okay, okay.
Story Time
The Tonto was infamous fit delivering frozen sack lunches by helicopter because they were afraid they would rot in the heat I guess?
I always specified the sandwiches had to be made out of wheat bread when I did my local preplanning contracts firveverything from sack lunches to heavy equipment as every Forest does as part of their FIRE plan.
Anyway…the Tonto was found of letting their contractors exclusively really cheap white bread for their sack lunches that we had to break open because they were frozen and then lay them on rocks in the sun to melt which of course didn’t take long given the ambient temperatures in the sun would be well over 100 degrees.
And yes…you are right, the result would be almost inedible goo of white mush with green meat, gooey cheese and the worst apples or oranges money could buy.
The chips and cookies (or whatever) were okay though.
But even on their best day, box or sack lunches sucked back in my day. There was zero quality control over how local cafes put those things together and the attitude was always…you’re lucky to get anything at all, so shut the fuck up and eat what we give you.
Of course for local family cafes in small towns, having hundreds and sometimes thousands of WLF showing up completely unexpected and almost overnight that need to be fed is always problematic….I imagine?
But once they have a few days to get FIRE contract caterers into a fire camp, there was always good food, even the sack lunches were good. But…they have the experience and their logistics all figured out ahead of time and with them, that is their business so there is quality control because they want to keep their contracts as Tory travel from fire camp to fire camp.
It works the same with shower contractors. They haul in huge shower trailers with everything they need. It always amazed me how small cities that support hundreds or even thousands of WLF can be built in the middle of nowhere in just a couple of days. Most people probably don’t realize just how much logistical work goes into fighting wildfires by lots of people who never even see the fire.
Oh…and one more thing. I am a whiney bitch (non gender specific) and damn proud of it. It’s part of my rite of passage into the geriatric class, kinda like my discount for a movie ticket.
In fact, usually we would arrive at a staging area and then be immediately sent to the fire for our first shift that could last up to 36 hours or more as gas often been said on this thread.
But…by the time we made it back to the same staging area where nothing had been, there would be a small city set up to provide for our every need, including a police force…amazing.
Well if the time is 4:24-4:30 how long had that fire been set before that to make that smoke stack? So Joy and I had talked to Howard and Bruce and they had seen smoke in that area much earlier. They were right on the NW edge of Glen Isla and their testimony indicated around 3:30. I am not sure Joy retrieved any photos from them but I was in Phoenix area where we hunted Howard up and after loosing everything he was glad to be out of the area. His wife was ill as well–so many fell ill after the massive retardant dumps.
Bruce did not want to talk much about the fire–I saw him in the American Legion and also at his yard sale where Joy interviewed him. He did not have his house burn but he had a direct view of all the smoke toward the Helms off his back Yard.
Of course the investigators never interviewed either one of them and I suspect the would not like their testimony.
I suspect Joy will come up with evidence of the actual times of photos, testimonies and so forth. I have a hunch those photos are much earlier and jive with what Howard and Bruce said.
Reply to Woodsman post on April 28, 2019 at 4:50 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>> “Seems to jive” doesn’t work for me on time. Sorry.
The EXACT ‘times’ for those photos is most likely going to change, as more becomes known about these photographs… but just based on comparing things to other photos… it will probably remain ‘late afternoon’ on June 30, 2013.
The “fields of view” will, however, probably NOT change.
However many photographs were taken at that location, at whatever time(s), at least there will now be a ‘base reference’ for SIGHTLINES.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> You’ve, once again, done amazing things with analysis
>> and scenario recreation with the best tools and available
>> evidence, BUT, we don’t have solid, factual, complete,
>> and irrefutable information on TIMES
Nope. Not yet.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> nor are we certain we have all available evidence for analysis.
Correct.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Therefore, the possibility of firing operations as a primary
>> causal factor in the crew entrapment , much to the
>> consternation of the powers that be, is still on the table.
>> It’s still on my table until proven otherwise.
Of course it is still “on the table”… but your statement still has TWO parts to it…
(1) The possibility of a firing operation
(2) as a PRIMARY causal factor in the crew entrapment
If (1) didn’t happen… then (2) also did not… but even if it can be PROVEN that (1) happened… that doesn’t automatically ( also ) confirm (2).
It’s complicated.
Agreed. Thanks.
Well a lot of this is becoming more clear in my mind thanks to WTKTT, Gary Olson, Woodsman, RTS, Norb, and even Holly Niel. Holly’s article pointed out the stobs–something to be seen very close to the Helms but hundreds of yards–maybe 700 or 800 yards away from the stobs at the death site where GMHS had cut around themselves in a futile attempt to save their lives. So maybe Holley will come on and tell us more–Amanda permitting–about the truth of why those stobs were located where they were.
You see Howard and Bruce that lived right along the area–Bruce almost adjacent to the Helms 40 acre ranch had told us about seeing smoke in that area as early as about 3;30 PM that day. Now that I have had some education here about these things such as burn outs, It stands to reason that someone was actually cutting line there at the Helms where these stobs that Holley points out were located. If indeed they were cutting line through that Manzanita brush, they with Gary’s input, it would be burn–“that is what the wild land fire fighter does”. And there would be no other good reason to cut line in there since Helms was already “bomb proof” and considered by the fire elites to be a safety zone. So the torchers would have an very close proximity to a safe zone if they were doing line and a burn in there.
With all the evidence and what I would surmise if I were Sherlock Holmes, those men had set a burn right in there–The Purdy photos would verify that–those were not ember spot fires at all in the photo and unless you see the actual time line of the photos, it would not have been 4:30 but much earlier at the same time Howard, Bruce, and some others told Joy and I they saw smoke in there.. A burn in that area would make sense to protect Glen Isla if they knew that the GMHS were not on their way down into the death trap box canyon and believed them to be still in the black. I can not imagine anything different at this point. Perhaps Joy can come up with some provable time frames–yet we have competent witnesses testimony as to time frames of the smoke stacks in the area including the Shrine–much earlier than the 4:30 PM stated for the Purdy photos.
You see I hiked right through there and know where the stobs are located: however, since Holly spent 11 days with the Helms, her testimony as to the exact situation concerning the stobs might be an aid to understanding and that depends upon how much she wants to follow the lead of Amanda. It is so hard to get dependable evidence from those involved with Amanda concerning the facts of the fire itself–though you might learn a lot of personal information as we saw in the movie.
Perhaps Holly, Joy or someone else will post the article for all to review concerning the stobs.
Jeff that is Yarnell Fire Chief might be in for a run for his money. Joy with all her training–she is getting even more in California this week–has been having thoughts of becoming the Yarnell Fire Chief. Well she knows just about every soul there and has been there for well over ten years. It would be a hard thing to turn her down considering her value in helping prove the truth of what killed the men and how and now with her qualifications as a wild land fire fighter–what less could she deserve as a job as Yarnell Fire Chieftress. For sure she would not be lax in putting out wild land fires near Yarnell even if they are lightening strikes. She would also make sure people kept up on their defensible space and I know how many times she pulled weeds freely for the elderly and disabled–so that would be a given.
I miss Bret Yodel–He passed a few months after the fire –long time quadriplegic from a car accident-I still have the Gibson that I bought at the Yard Sales his relatives were having. It has SG on it–my initials- it is a SG Gibson electric, well used but perfect sounding–and I play it quite often. Maybe I will sing a sad song and some get over the heart break of the death of those youngsters. I will be coming up on 76 but did get those telephone poles in the air and that porch put in except the screening in. The right arm does not work as well after the gunshot but the left is getting stronger. I built the steps to the porch (it is up 3-4 ft on 36 ancient railroad ties (some nails dated 1922) that I cut and buried more that two ft. in the ground. The roof is supported by telephone poles that hold up 20 foot telephone poles that I set the rafters on. I put plywood down then heavy metal rooffing so I have a surround porch with 2×6 and 2×4 flooring. So if you weigh even 700 pounds you won’t fall through. Now I have 20 375 wat solar panels to piss ant up the ladder and mount on the roof of this porch—8×40 foot wrap around but the way a miner and mucker does it–I lost the bad part. But one thing for sure if the water gets high, I am dry. Well the logging helped too–a faller–but woodsman selling fire wood for quite a number of years–probably could carve Ice like Joy does with a chain saw. (I only dropped the saw on my leg once–when I changed bar lengths–it cut a nasty hole in my leg but I never bothered to go get it sewed up so I have a nice long scar there to go along with that big burn scar caused by that Fire Chief in Las Cruces when he put a glass jug on a wood stove my dad kept at his Gas Station. Mom saved my life (4 year old) by dunking me into the ice coke box–those days the cokes were kept cold by ice and water and the old Coca Cola Boxes were quite large and ample room to dunk a 4 year old. Skin graphs helped that scar to not look as bad as it could have. Well life can be dangerous-you realize that when you dog shoots you in the back with your 12 gauge. That right arm is coming back but a pain to reach up high with it. Yet in all the strange incidents of life I feel damn happy and fortunate to be alive–and looking at what happened to the young 17 under the care of their bosses, you have to watch out even for the more intelligent things in your life. Too bad when men begin to look out for their own personal aggrandizement while forgetting the most precious asset they are in command of–that is the lives of those young heroes they killed due to their negligence and lack of due regard to the lives of their crew.
But then last night I watched the Holocaust movie and see how good German men would take orders to commit genocide–and even confronted they found excuse for their actions. Mainly pass the buck upstairs if they did not say they were doing the world a favor by eliminating human beings that were of different ethnic and religious leanings. Of course we want to believe the actions that killed the GMHS youngsters was not deliberate, but even that is questionable considering the way every common sense rule that boss firefighters know were broken and no matter how much they say as Willis did–those men had to protect structures–thats what they do—It boggles the mind that anyone of good sense and intelligence would believe that. Hey the bosses knew the gravity of the situation–waving a pulaski at a wild land fire of ultimate and extreme magnitude equal to atom bomb energy every 15 minutes and laying down 100-200ft flames where all the jumbo jet retardant they could supply and even an army of men –would be like a mouse trying to mate with an Elephant–as the joke went when the Elephant let out that humongous roar–did I hurt you honey? No the excuses and imaginations of people making up these stories are listened to by the public because of their ignorance of wild land fire fighting–but if they knew what the wild land fire fighters know there was no way they would encounter the danger of flanking a fire in extreme wind and weather changes just to take care of a few abandoned buildings. Yet the public does not know and the fire fighting honchos do not want the press in there to educate people as to what is really going on. That carte blanche public tax money to fight fires and the hero worship might diminish and greatly in some cases.
Well there is more to the story for certain. Now that I see the photos as posted I see there were more than just the Shrine burn and with three smoke stacks early on there was burning going on at more than just the Helms area. What the hell was Marsh thinking–something that creates the wonder was he directing his own demise and his crew along with him? There is just to much evidence that gives me the willies about this. Why I say use an FBI profiler–use the men that have not degraded themselves into positions of delusion and methods of deluding the public and even the loved ones where they have been deprived of the facts that killed their loved ones.
to be continued
Joy has let me know there is more to be revealed and she has it stored and under wraps–just getting permissions and doing things the right way so people that have these photos and proof of these burns placated. She does not want to loose people’s confidence and therefore dry up her sources. But the facts are coming out soon and I am assured we will not be long in getting them. I
I assured her that many will not like the truth out there. Yet the loved ones deserve it and perhaps not now early on but in time we all must know why when we loose someone cherished in our hearts. It does make things some better knowing, yet the loved one is always remembered and heart felt in sorrow. If there is a Catholic Jesus Ted Gilligan, my son, is looking down–and some day I will meet him and know why he died before his time.
But I am a Universalist in Religion, all good if the principles are–bad if you are of the mind to say kill Infadels because they won’t bonk their heads five times a day–and the green object in the sky that Joy just photographed, perhaps she will share a link to it and more photos. It might well be the Irish Gods in their green space craft checking up on earth. I wish she would also share the photo of that apparition that appeared at Aguila, Arizona one moonlighted night right on my 5 acres north of town. So yes to psychic abilities and yes to scientists who estimate there should be according to math some 500,000 planets with life in this Galaxy alone. And just because you think there is no way to go those long distances in space then you are like the men who said there was no way man could ever fly or go to the moon. We are at the beginning of knowledge and know nothing much about 11 dimensions beyond our own and parallel universes right in our own time. Well known that Einstein proved that if you took off at the speed of light and returned some 50 years later earth time, most of your buddies would have aged 50 years if they were alive and you still would only be minutes older to greet them. So the time warp is just a fact that we know little of except that it is a fact of physics and mathematics that does exist.
I have 20 Solar panels to haul up–I have not much time left on this earth but it is well to get away from green house gasses. Of course it took energy to make the panels but over time I think the panels win the race to keep the earth CO2 down some. The Chinese are on board with this thought, Trump says it is phoey. But plastics, retatdant, and all other pollutants are benefiting the makers much and doing the environment irreparable harm. Trump might say well we need to rid the planet of all these poor people-=-but his heart is hard like the Hitler was with human life and I mean not only the Jews–he caused the death of millions of non Jews, his own armies of men and other civilians. So wear the Swastika if you like but I grant in my way of thinking you are another case of ignorance and hubris. And can pride be a good thing? Only if it bears good and is founded upon truth and reason.
You would think 75 years on this planet I would know something. But if it is how to get money rich, not so. But I do feel rich looking at the apricot trees budding with small green apricots, a garden that has tomatoes, potatoes, spices and chillies and some other things growing. No weed in my case but it is likely a good medicine for some things. And a heart that is rich in life’s experiences. Thoreau was an Englishman that looked down on Irishmen. But he had some good things to say–he said a man ought to be able to build himself a home. I have done that and followed his example of independent living. An Irishman American listens to an Englishman? Well not often, but many of the English are of the finest people. It is the politicians that blight things in any country. Generally the English would never have stood by and watch the Irish die like flies from starvation during the potatoe famine of 1845–but the leaders–King and political subjects delighted in it. But they did not know that they were Blessing America with so many Irish. Yet don’t expect them to be driving Deloreans.
Good tidings and blessing to all, especially to those contributing here and my hiking pal Joy–a case and a hero in my way of thinking.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 5:49 PM Arizona.Desert.Walker wrote:
Well…once again, absolutely amazing work that brings so much clarity to the event. In fact, the work WTKTT did with these photographs make it very hard for me to visualize or comprehend how a backfire out of the Shrine area could have possibly have been a significant factor in the deaths of the crew given the distance, and topography versus time. I am prepared to be schooled…but I remain a skeptic.
Then You have not paid attention…the THEME always has been the chutes and chimneys Sesame to Shrine corridors not just the Shrine…the areas spurred all around that leads into the DZ
It entailed laying fire on areas without even any anchor point
Sorry but I alerted JD and he was cool I back channel to have some assistance and so far that person is just busy doing other stuff I reckon but there is much more and because I saw no interest back channel I stopped emailing more data as I planned when I awoke today. I felt THAT PERSON must have a busy day so I will make mine such way too.
I await your revelations with great anticipation and an appropriate degree of gratitude and level of awe for everything you have done in furtherance of the truth and to make the scales fall from my eyes, God Bless and God speed.
Oh…and one more thing. I deeply regret I did not add “against overwhelming odds” to my previous post because you are indeed, the real life model for the Energizer Bunny because you just keep going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going to infinity and beyond!
Whoops, 😬
“To infinity and beyond!” (Buzz Lightyear, Toy Story)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yejqDshtyLA
FYI…I don’t really think the loss of THAT person will be detrimental to your plans, So…
The TIMES for those two PUBLIC / PUBLISHED Vanessa Purdy photos will probably change, as more is learned… but I believe those “fields of view” are totally accurate, and that won’t change.
Since these TWO photographs are simply the ones known to have been ‘released’ by Vanessa Purdy to public media outlets… they are simply ‘copies’ of the originals reformatted to fit on a web page. So they are NOT the ‘originals’ and there is no relevant EXIF metadata ( like TIMESTAMPS or DEVICE NAME ) in those PUBLIC copies of the photographs.
Since she ( Vanessa Purdy ) was perfectly fine with allowing these TWO photographs to be publicly published, ( along with her name and the location where they were taken ) she obviously isn’t all that concerned with being ‘anonymous’ or anything… so maybe more photographs ( original copies? ) will emerge.
That location where she was taking these photographs really is/was the absolute CLOSEST residence to the Boulder Springs Ranch, there at the far western edge of Glen Ilah… so ( obviously ) ANY photographs taken from that location are very important and deserve to part of the PUBLIC evidence record.
Should the proof of several back burns and burn outs prove to be the case then it should be no surprise. I was thinking of the Deputy B. who did say he was there and he knew there was communication yet the situation was total chaos. Seems no crew knew exactly what other crews were doing and you had people in charge even walking off the job. It appears groups were doing what they thought were procedures sensible for the occasion. And if I were to look at all the possible back burns and burn outs and their locations, I would say they make sense. I think even the crew bosses would agree that while winds were directed away from Glen Isla and away from the Helms Ranch, a back burn would be a given. Now I am not a wild land fire fighter so I am certain to hear something about my civilian way of thinking.
But this is not what brought me to the computer–What came to mind was Raul and Teresa as we knew them before the fire some years. Teresa and Raul were regulars to the Yarnell Library–Both were healthy and very vibrant people. Teresa had retired from some official joy fot the state–always healthy and always in a conversation with Joy. Raul was more reserved but healthy. But within a few months after the 2013 Yarnell Fire and the massive retardant dumps things began to go down hill. People Joy and I had the pleasure to dine with as guests in their home had soon deteriorated in their health so that Raul could barely get to the mail box and the Vibrant and always smiling and positive Teresa was in such bad health that she could not leave her home. She could no longer make her visits to the library. This saddens me greatly because these outstanding people with tremendous vitality for their ages you would never expect to be seen in this condition, yet this is only one example of the many cases Joy and I know of and personally are witnesses to.
The Yarnell deaths of the young wild land fire fighters together with the almost 200 deaths out of 650 Yarnell residents after the two massive retardant dumps of 2013 and 2015 is a horror story that defies imagination and possibilities. Even people I did not know were dying, and as we stopped at the post office there you would ask why are they selling things–the guy behind the post office had died of a heart attack. It was almost a daily death tally and Joy mentioned 9 had passed in a weeks time.
You see, Joy knew practically every soul on a personal basis that has passed. The horror story has to be something that bears on her. Yarnell to me came to be a doomsday town and the only thing that I could connect to the situation was the massive retardant dumps. There had been others that were complaining of the detrimental effects on the environment and health problems related to the retardant dumps–yet until I went and researched the matter I could not see how what I believed to be a harmless chemical solution could be instead a deadly pollutant with devastating effects not only upon the environment and aquatic life but upon the human organisms. Ammonium gas and the production of cyanide gases due to ammonium phosphates applied to extreme fires such as that was at Yarnell are health hazards in the extreme for elderly. But we have no idea what the secret ingredients are that accompanied the retardant drops. Of course cyanide gas was the killer constituent of Zyclon B, Hitlers extermination gas of the Jews and only 1/60th of a teaspoon is enough to kill a 140 pound person. So some spy people would carry a small capsule for suicide in case of capture.
Yes the deaths of the young firefighter heroes tears at the heart. But so to the horrible and needless deaths of the elderly due to these chemicals. And if you have a better explanation for all the sudden illness and deaths of the Yarnellites after the massive orange retardant dumps then let me know.
Joy is busy right now seeking more qualifications, but perhaps she will honor some of the many deaths that are part of the horror story at Yarnell.
I can only tell you that my own heart attacks–the second one that killed me was at Prescott some months after the fire. But it was in Helena, Montana that I had the first heart attack and that was only a few months after the fire. Since I have had several attacks and near death from them so that it has resulted in six heart stints. I went in just before my dog shot me in the back because I was in chest pain and could barely walk across the parking lot without being out of breath. About a month before at William Beaumont Army Hospital the doctors had run a catheter to my heart because of these sympotoms yet determined that I was OK despite the pains and lack of breath. But something had to be wrong, why I went back to the hospital, this time I limped into the hospital at Las Cruces. Again the Cardioligist made an emergency look at my heart with the catheter. Damn he did not use enough pain medication and I felt that one even at my heart–but I needed to know and would you not know my veins were clear but he said he could see the stents and they were good as well.
However a subsequent MRI found something on the left lung. The dog shot the other one out about a month later.
I say this because too many people at Yarnell have suffered the same and most have not made it back from the hospital. And those that suffered the most are of my age category–older folk beyond their 50’s–though Joy has been battling some symptoms at her younger years–I will live the age disclosure to her.
I do hope someone finally investigates what is going on with this retardant. I do know it is applied as though it is a harmless chemical, yet scores have passed at Yarnell after its application and I personally have seen people deteriorate in heath and happiness within a short time span after the proud pilots had been ordered to surround and inundate Yarnell with it–not once in 2013 but also again during the Tenderfoot Fire of 2015.
Joy remains the person to name those who were victims of the retardant dumps.
Oh…and one more thing. What El Jefe” AKA El Estupido and “Mrs. Pity-me-please” were doing ‘behind the scenes’ is even worse than at first glance… because that ‘Family Staff Ride’ was a COURT ORDERED event.
Jeff Whitney himself SIGNED that legal settlement agreement on June 29, 2015, on behalf of Arizona Forestry and the State of Arizona… thereby agreeing to act in ‘good faith’ and uphold ALL the terms of the settlement agreement.
He (El Estupido) is lucky the judge in the case didn’t find out about these back-channel shenanigans at the time.
He/She could have VOIDED the entire fucking settlement agreement upon learning about what was going on.
Jeff Whitney ( “El Jefe” ) was tapped to be the director of Arizona Forestry for one reason only… to placate the ‘families’ and make their ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits ‘go away’.
It’s still a shame that the families folded.
The ONE thing that Arizona Forestry could NOT let happen was to let ANY of those ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits make it to trial… because that’s when actual legal ‘discovery’ is allowed, and ‘under oath’ depositions get taken and ( eventually ) people have to testify “under oath”.
There was no way Arizona Forestry was going to allow that to happen.
But now we see that even after actually signing the settlement agreement… Whitney was conspiring with others to ‘shape’ things that were COURT ORDERED by the agreement itself.
What a piece of work this guy was/is.
WTKTT,
When I talked with Jeff Whitney on the morning of the April 2016 Family Staff Ride, Whitney indicated that I was unwelcome. He later told me that he quit a good job in order to accept the AZ Forestry Director position because he wanted to be a major part of the YH Fire “healing process” through the YH Fire Staff Ride development. I felt that he was very sincere in his declaration and intentions about why he came to the AZ Forestry.
At the Pioneer Cemetery after the Staff Ride, he told me that he was glad that I had come and participated
What followed afterwards in the text messages between him and AM that Joy provided is interesting and yet disturbing for me
And…
And it looks to me like you fell asleep in the middle of posting your thought? I would like to know the rest of it.
In addition, I just looked up El Estupido and it looks like he was canned as State Forester some time back. Does anybody know what happened?
Gary,
On the contrary, I think you’re the one that fell asleep.
Joy posted about all that back awhile ago.
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-475650 )
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476665 )
Gary,
On the contrary, I think you were the one that fell asleep because Joy posted on this awhile back.
On in December 2018 and one in January 2019.
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-475650 )
Yes, you are correct Sir…I missed all of that, my bad. Geez, and I thought I was ratting 🐀 out the current State Forester for misusing the power if his office, how embarrassing for me.
BUT…in my defense, this is a very complicated story line. And in fact..I maintain that if someone wrote it up and presented it in Hollywood, it would be rejected immediately for “jumping the shark” to many times and for its implausibility.
This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder’s head. Luckily I’m adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind, you know, limber.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HjJhbnz8YX0
Gary,
“Implausibility is not a reason to completely dismiss empirical findings, but impossibility is. It is up to authors to interpret the effect size in their study, and to show the mechanism through which an effect that is impossibly large, becomes plausible. Without such an explanation, the finding should simply be dismissed.”
So saith Daniel Lakens, an experimental psychologist at the Human-Technology Interaction group at Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands.
The 20% Statistician – A blog on statistics, methods, and open science. Understanding 20% of statistics will improve 80% of your inferences.
Monday, July 3, 2017 – “Impossibly hungry judges”
( http://daniellakens.blogspot.com/ )
The sheer number of photos revealing separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes) in the areas of the Sesame Street and Shrine Fuel / Fire Break Corridor meet the plausibility standard noted by author Daniel Lakens.
Correction: The above should read as follows:
The sheer number of photos revealing separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes) in the areas of the Sesame Street and Shrine Fuel / Fire Break Corridor strongly indicating a firing operation and therefore meet the plausibility standard noted by author Daniel Lakens.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 27, 2019 at 1:11 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> When I talked with Jeff Whitney on the morning of the
>> April 2016 Family Staff Ride, Whitney indicated that
>> I was unwelcome.
>>
>> ( Fast forward a few hours )
>>
>> At the Pioneer Cemetery after the Staff Ride, he told me that
>> he was glad that I had come and participated
So what do you think ( or know? ) happened just in the course of
those few hours for “El Jefe” to “change his tune” 180 degrees?
That’s some “turnaround” just in the course of 1 afternoon.
WTKTT,
I guess because we go “way back” as Hot Shots. We were on the Dude Fire together on June 26, 1990.
And I believe that he realized we were basically on the same side as far as the entire YH Fire and GMHS debacle.
Not so much on the report though, because I had to go before him and his AZ State Forestry Board in 2016 to get approval to do a wildland fire refresher about the human factors influencing the YH Fire and GMHS fatalities on June 30, 2013.
However, it seemed to me that he was obviously sucking up to AM on the whole Staff Ride thing with the text messages
Yes…and I think “sucking up” is the biggest understatement on this thread to date.
RTS on those spot fires you recently posted did you have a time frame for the photos? I oriented myself and actually hiked right through the area with one of the loved ones so I know exactly where that spot fire was located. That might clarify some things in my thinking.
tried to post a few times….try again
to put it another way…
That is how Gary the past 24 hours placed it on IM
His spin not mine.
I gave him and RTS the text thread between Jeff Whitney and a loved one and when I said
“Gary and RTS- I am going to email you what Jeff Whitney wrote about you with a loved one- you deserve to know that….what you both do with it i[s] up to you but I am tired of holding on to certain areas.”
My area was to show them the distastes behind the scenes that have gone on for years
-not at all what he wrote or alleged or implied.is how I feel
yet it was part of that text thread.which he quoted so he is sharing a perception I never even grasped nor thought it could be assumed such way.
I was alerted about it and I am heading for more training so I cannot look to this area to “babysit” what another took and perceived so if that is how Gary felt – I can publicly state I did not express that public or private and I do not feel such way
but indeed I do have a lot of receipts and records and indeed it was right to let RTS and Gary see how their old pal Jeff interacts behind close doors.
Thank God for super technology capabilities. or Gary and RTS would never know what was being said behind their backs that is rather important.
Didn’t you catch that data Gary?
A person trying to ensure you were not allowed to be somewhere?
I found it distasteful and unprofessional- you did not Gary?
You went another direction with the content.
Then you wonder why IM gets the descriptions it does….
Gary, I am not perfect-
How could I have sent that to you where you would have focused to the content on you not being allowed to be somewhere-
???
I mean it was harsh what you said about a few areas…and then mixing me in…I get it…
I annoy you, say dumb things so why not…
but listen if the light bulb burns out in your laundry room- what do you do Gary? Buy a new light bulb…skate thru in the daylight in that area?…buy a new home that comes with a new bulb?
Just curious…I know you were having fun with the data but you should have walked away with someone trying to limit where you were allowed and the question is WHY??? I have no clue how you got where you got-
I know you are not here to build names on a Christmas list roster- I get that.
I just wanted to get the whole lingo
Do you know what love even is?
You spoke about it last night,
Love has so many languages- I know…right
But when you truly love someone you may be out hiking or on the pc or riding in your jeep but you ensure to communicate in some way to let that person know hey you are on my mind …
Love is…
I find it’s good company…a person to vibe with…laugh with…not in any rush to label how you are to another…oh and feelings have a lot to do with love…
We all perceive differently. I came on just to state I do not perceive what I shared to you and RTS the same way.
Somebody told me we were to meet up and share scripture today- that person dissed me and I am finding myself re-evaluating my days to come…I do not like when someone says stuff than texts they are out having a beautiful day and just blew me off. I only came here to state I do not support your take on what I gave you.
That’s all.
I am not just saying that…I mean it.
I thought you would have been shocked by Jeff not being professional and stand up for you.
You did not deserve that.
Joy,
The email speaks for itself. Everyone hears what they want to hear, but I hear what it says…exactly what it says. One of your greatest strengths is your naivety and sweetness. One of your greatest weaknesses is your naivety and your sweetness.
People like you who are the sheep 🐑, can exist in this world 🌎 in relative security among the wolves 🐺 like Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh, because of people like me…who are the sheepdogs 🐕.
Sometimes what we do to defend you is ugly and you shouldn’t watch. But…In your darkest hour when your demons come call on me, sister and we will fight them together.
Political corruption is the use of powers by government officials or their network contacts for illegitimate private gain. … Forms of corruption vary, but include bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, parochialism, patronage, influence peddling, graft, and embezzlement.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_corruption
Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management State Forester Jeff Whitney is guilty of public corruption because he used his official office and the powers of that office for corrupt purposes.
Send me the all of the emails and I will put everything on my website in context so that everyone can see how Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh conspired to use the power of his office to deprive both RTS and myself of a benefit we were entitled to receive because I had been invited to attend that staff ride as the guest of the mother of one of the dead hotshots. Every family was allowed to invite one guest to accompany them and she invited me.
But in the end…I asked RTS to attend in my place because I felt he knew the players, the lay of the land, and the current issues far better than I did.. Criminals don’t have to be successful when they conspire to break the law, because being successful at committing a crime isn’t an element of the conspiracy statute. So…
El Jefe is lucky the statute of limitations has either run out or will soon run out on his crime of conspiracy, or I would give him something to worry about that is much bigger than just being publicly shamed for using the power of his official office to tap our dead hotshot brother’s wife in her hour of need.
And that need was to be vindictive and punish those whom she perceived were her enemies because they were telling the truth about how her former husband was responsible for killing his hotshot crew through his criminally negligent decisions and actions.
That and the fact no state law enforcement agency in Arizona would acceptor investigate my valid complaint. 🙁
“…accept or investigate…
Oh…and one more thing. I don’t even have to file a complaint for El Jefe’s criminal acts to be investigated. I have now done my duty, I have alerted the State of Arizona to the fact that public corruption occurred. The crime wasn’t against me…El Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh)s crimes were against the people of Arizona. All of the evidence they would need to prosecute those crimes is contained in those email strings.
I wrote thousands of official emails during my career and I never wrote any like the ones El Estúpido wrote. What a stupid fuck!
Hey RTS…I’m not being to “squishy” for you now am I?
Joy,
What those people did was offensive and distasteful to you because you are a good person.
But because you are a good person and naive, you didn’t realize that what they did was actually commit and least three felonies.
And those are public corruption, conspiracy and wire fraud because they used the internet to commit their criminal acts.
And let’s not forget that…
…that ain’t legal either.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oovqYtMy1BI
I mean…the Great State Of Arizona didn’t even investigate the deaths of 19 people who were killed as the result of criminally negligent acts, much less conspiracy to use the power of a public office in an attempt to deprive both RTS and I of a benefit (thing of value) we were entitled to receive. Am I right?
Gary,
A bit too crass and disrespectful of the dead for me even though we agree – and allege – that Marsh’s actions and decisions were causal factors to the deaths of their men on June 30, 2013.
And for those that require a bit of education for because you know little or nothing of what Gary is referring to above, read the article in the link below.
“Book Excerpt: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs” (Police One – June 3, 2008)
“If you want to be a sheepdog, you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door”
( https://www.policeone.com/police-products/training-products/articles/1709289-Book-Excerpt-On-Sheep-Wolves-and-Sheepdogs/ )
I know RTS…we established that you are a better person than me a long time ago.
But then again…you didn’t do the things I did in your name for 18 years so you aren’t in a position to judge me are you?
And a lot of people are sheepdogs who never served in the military or law enforcement. You are a sheepdog.
RTS,
I just read the article at the link you provided and when I got to the end and read the name of the author, Dave Grossman.
And then I remembered that is where I first heard the theory of sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. I attended a law enforcement conference (in Prescott at the old Sheraton) where Lt. Colonel Grossman lectured us. He is a very captivating speaker.
But my old friend…you are one of the strongest and most capable sheepdogs I have ever served beside. So you know…keep up the good work. 👍🏻
My comment is awaiting moderation take Ii.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the impact the criminal acts of Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh would have had on the other person who was involved in that scenario.Mrs. Marcia McKee whose son Grant McKee was killed with the other Granite Mountain Hotshots.
El Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh did everything they could in an attempt to defraud Mrs. McKee of the one emotional support person she chose to accompany her on the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride.
So…I don’t really want to hear about how mean I am for doing the little I can to extract some accountability from two really bad people. I have my own sheep to do what I can to protect.
And as a matter of fact, I believe I am speaking and acting for many of the crew who were killed by an egomaniac and now their legacy of making a positive contribution to wild land firefighter safety is being destroyed by the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh’s posse of enablers.
So yes…my tactics are distasteful at times, but this is asymmetrical and non conventional warfare. I use the weapons that are available to me. But people know who I am and what my position is…right?
Although Fred and Joy are the ones who keep walking into the lair of the wolves and facing them down.
Gary Says: Although Fred and Joy are the ones who keep walking into the lair of the wolves and facing them down.
My Reply- thank you for the explanations-
I just never saw it the way you placed it out.using unusual words like “tap” or “cold”….those areas seem harsh-
Yes, I did think about the McKee family when I sent it to you and RTS and that was my concern. that they were not shown the proper respect. I did not even say that out loud but I was thinking it as I shared-
Sorry Gar-
Fred. and I (as well as many others here on this thread like THE Woodsman and HAL 9000) are playing three dimensional chess ♟, the Cabal is playing checkers and Joy is either playing Tiddlywinks or Battleship? Who the fuck knows?
You don’t have to be sorry about anything Joy, this world needs a lot more people like you…and a few like me. 🙂
You are indeed a National Treasure just like Sonny is!
And you know I was just joking with you about the Tiidlywinks.
But all joking aside, the former Mrs. Eric Marsh replaced him pretty fast in her life.
Mrs, Marcia McKee can’t replace Grant. Amanda lost her husband…Marcia lost her son, who I believe was her only child.
But Mrs. McKee never drank the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra Kool Aid and everyone there treated her horribly and completely disrespectfully.
You send me the rest of that material you have from El Jefe, and I will do everything I can to settle the score, at least a little bit for what Mrs. McKee was put through by a lot of really bad people that included yelling at her to try and force her to sign documents. They also used uniformed police officers in that setting to intimidate her.
And in the process they withheld logistical financial assistance and compensation from her to punish her that they paid to everyone who did drink their KOOL Aid.
What a fucked up place that nest of vipers is. And Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman is the queen pit viper.
But…she is really good at manipulating people to get her way and she runs her very own Pity Industry to promote the memory of the man who killed his crew through criminally reckless negligence.
And of course she loves to be the center of attention. And she has done a great job, she has the rest of those bitches (non gender specific) following her every whim as their command. It is sick…sick…sick!
Oh…and one more thing. RTS did a great job being a friend and support person for Marcia McKee and he helped her negotiate what was a very difficult thing for her to do.
Especially while being surrounded by either strangers or unfriendly people who were drinking the Kool Aid.
So…shame, shame, shame on both El Estupido and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh for conspiring to use his public office of authority and trust to defraud Mrs. McKee the same right everyone else had to have the emotional support person of her choice help her make it through a heartbreaking ordeal.
Gary,
Thanks for the kudos about the YH Fire / GMHS Family Staff Ride.
It was rough indeed and felt that it was WAY too early for that kind of event.
The deck was clearly stacked against me as well with most of the cadre and several of the GMHS family, friends, and loved ones making it clear that I was unwelcome there
In spite of all that, I felt it was a worthwhile experience because I was able to clarify some key details at several of the Decision Points during the day
Gary,
Thank you for the kudos about the YH Fire / GMHS Family Staff Ride.
It was rough indeed and felt that it was WAY too early for that kind of event.
The deck was clearly stacked against me as well with most of the cadre and several of the GMHS family, friends, and loved ones making it clear that I was unwelcome there
In spite of this, I felt it was a worthwhile experience because I was able to clarify some key details at several of the Decision Points during the day
Thanks Joy for that link to the Irish wild land fire going on in Northwest Ireland. You see that hundreds of Irish citizens went out to fight the fire–that is they were not hindered by a legal system –no one got hurt but that fire covered a large area. I could not help but think if Yarnell had been an Irish town how soon that fire would have been out. You know that the Irish would have got up onto that fire like gang busters and had it out whether the local Fire Fighting educated fire fighters would do it or not. There would have been no hesitancy on the part of the Irish to defend their property and well being–no such thing as letting something get out of hand just because the dummies at Yarnell could not agree whether it ought to be taken care of or not. That should have been a given–and just as in Ireland where the people are just as involved in taking care of a fire as their firefighter crews. Maybe I saw that attitude in my dear old Dad–he did not jump in his truck and drive to town to hunt up a fire fighter to ask if they would take care of lightening strikes that were ready to expand into a full fledged wild fire. As soon as he saw smoke, he yelled at me to grab a shovel and pick and we were on our way up the mountain to take care of those lightening strikes, and we did.
So now we know the rest of the story is going to come out–the facts that those videos did not lie–and I am ever reminded of Gary’s statement–that’s what we do we burn. And that makes the sense except who would have known that Marsh would go against all good reason and order his crew down into the trap despite all good reason. He had to have known those burns were going on and so did every other boss with the radios blaring. So Donut was seeing sparks across the road and those winds were whipping the trees and driving those embers up the mountain with the advance in expressway speed.
I should think that if indeed the back burns did kill those GMHS, the guys doing the burning had no idea that Marsh would be attempting to outrun the fire with his crew. That the truth was and is being hidden from public view is the greatest tragedy. One thing it robbed the loved ones of their right to know and it also caused them to accept meager sums for the wrongful death of their loved ones. The state was not only pinching pennies it was attempting to keep the truth hidden so the FS would come out in the best of public view. It took some nerve to give out awards for that Yarnell performance by the men in charge.
And Mrs .Marsh, though had no fault in the actions of her ex, she did keep up the front–but I do think she must have been privy to the real truth. That will bear hard upon her to have to admit to living the lie–but who is to say–people sometimes become so deluded they believe their own BS–and especially those that want to live the life as a victim. Well she got her 15 minutes of fame–too bad it was not living in the truth of that disaster–same goes for Donut? Who among all these has not gained from their delusions?
It sounds like Joy is ready to unleash — the cat is screaming to get out of the bag and that is the way it should be. It would be that even I had some guilt at the death of those men–I thought damn, we were right there where they went down–could I have said stay the hell out of that death trap? I do realize that would have been a joke–a citizen trying to tell those educated and trained wild land fire fighters what to do. A laugh to be sure. Yet that cowboy McKensie, who had lived the area for fifty years did just that. He told them that morning now you boys don’t get trapped down there in that manzanita when that fire takes off. He did not need the education and training to know better than getting trapped–it was a useless and stupid action with a fire that an army could not have halted.
Yet those those that knew Marsh was a risktaker must carry some burden of conscience unless they had made a report of his devious behaviour. I say devious because to risk your crew’s lives needlessly and carelessly with only regard to aggrandizement is a devious situation. But I am not one to say except it was obvious he was in the wrong occupation.
Joy is a fighter–she won’t be bullied–for that I am certain. Her Irish genes give her stamina and the will to survive against all odds. I certainly have a smile on my face to those that are dumb enough to take her on. They will end in defeat–truth always wins and old Karma comes after those that follow the crooked path.
To add a bit to the story early on one of the fire bosses posted that Sonny and Joy ought to be sent to the penitentiary for being up there on the fire edge. I wonder how many Irish in Ireland would laugh at him because he would have to send half of Ireland to the Penitentiary for being on the fire lines. The Irish must see things a bit differently since hundreds went out to fight the fire in Northern Ireland. I suspect that very fire boss is one of those that believes a citizen has no right or purpose to stop wild land fires. But I am of the opinion that in a free America if it stands to reason and a person wants to risk his ass in helping to stop a fire–as long as it is his own–go to it. I know Joanna of Prescott News had a thing against one of the reporters because he would hike in and take video of the men working–Hell yes I say–what are the FS and Hot Shot Bosses afraid the public might see? The right of the press was infringed at Yarnell–it was said that some of the Yarnellites did not want their homes burnt down exposed to the public eye. What rubbish to keep out the press–and the FS and State Officials are more than willing to neglect the rights of press to keep themselves from being exposed.
Consider that Joanna’s husband was or is a fire fighter–how they influence the press. How about a little unbiased press be allowed to operate. But then I could understand why the Prescott news was eager to promote the GMHS–their homeboys that could do no wrong.
Charlie,
You make many good points on the blatant (mis)management of the YH Fire in general and the GMHS specifically.
I agree with you that “… now we know the rest of the story is going to come out.” Yes we do know that.
However, the SAIT-SAIR noted in several pages quite the contrary. This statement from one of the many SAIT Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) in August 2013 is interesting and verifies .
“ We have so much evidence that we cannot and will not ever release” about the YH Fire and the GMHS stated a highly experienced YH Fire Investigation SME (August 2013)
These are the many SAIT-SAIR excerpts on the SAIT arrogantly confident shielding the truth from the FFs, WFs, and the American public.
“Because we do not know, and will never know , many of the precise details surrounding the final movements and motivations of the Granite Mountain IHC …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 45) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know for sure, we considered how the Granite Mountain IHC might have reasoned …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 47) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know the answer to this question, it is worth asking: …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 48) (emphasis added)
“We will never know for sure, but we wondered whether the Granite Mountain IHC’s decision to hike through the green might have seemed to them to be a decision to operate in the green just like everyone else.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 52)
(emphasis added)
“We will never know if the crew understood that this route of travel required that they sacrifice some of their capacity to serve as their own lookouts.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
“We will also never know if they understood the calculated risk involved in traversing the final distance to the Ranch without the level of situational awareness that a different vantage point might have afforded.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
The truth is coming out little by little, so stand by because we WILL know the “who, what, when, where, and why”
It is very heart warming to know that RTS, Joy, Gary, Woodsman, Norb, WTKTT, John D.,just to name a few of the heavy hitters have begun to unravel the SAIT-SAIR lies and cover up. Omission and half truths have been their “NEVER KNOW” and “INFORMATION WE WILL NEVER RELEASE” and is equivalent to conspiracy and I would imagine the Rico Act. Gary would know the legal possibilities they should face. The truth is obviously held back to defraud the loved ones and to placate certain individuals determined to make their failure at Yarnell look like a heroic and outstanding effort by the FS and its Firefighting regime.
It is indeed sad when you have men in an occupation bound to investigate and tell the truth that the Loved Ones, the Public, and all Firefighters and Citizens should know. But it is wonderful to see that the best of the best among wild land fire fighters and concerned citizens have exposed the ugly coverup. I do not know what more the FBI, Congressmen, and people of high standard need to go after these buggers.
Thanks RTS for those photos you recently posted–that is in the area right below the Helms there and at 4:24–was that about a half hour before the men were killed? Good Lord, if so then it stands to reason from my view that the spot fires were either from the Shrine burn or they were actual burn outs in progress right there. I can see why the FS does not want the Media watching–their fuck ups are royal and deadly. Should they be exposed then they would have to make some extreme changes including demoting, expelling and even criminally charging a number of the culprits.
Of all the investigators- there were two that did seem above board –those two we hiked and later recommended the highest fine to those responsible for this great boondoggle that resulted in the deaths of the GMHS crew. You can bet the system moved them out of the investigative business. Bruce should have sued them for getting hurt on the job. Bret was I understand moved to a desk job–he was an excellent hiker and they both deserved promotions.
RTS thanks for the video post on the Taliban incident killing the 7 young soldiers. There is so much similarity –good Lord–abandon the high ground to situate in a trap just as the GMHS crew abandoned the high and in the black to take up a death trap. Who could not know that the camp situation was where they could easily be surrounded by the Taliban on the high ground and in a situation outpost that was as needless and useless as the men of the GMHS would be at attempting to protect houses with an Atomic Bomb energy burning situation they were in complete observance of all morning long. It defies logic and good sense –the doe doe that takes a knife into a gun battle.
To many leaders are thoughtless when it comes to how to keep their men alive. Certain in all cases of Battle the men controlling the high ground have the advantage in a battle zone. Yes we planted the flag at Iwo Jima but look at the cost in lives to get that high ground. Stay in the black when the odds are against you and your men are apt to die. Houses are a poor excuse for killing men–those Pulaski’s do well making line but once the Fire Devil and Big Dog Eat–time to move to Safety.
Sonny,
You make many good points on the blatant (mis)management of the YH Fire in general and the GMHS specifically.
I agree with you that “… now we know the rest of the story is going to come out.” Yes we do know that.
However, the SAIT-SAIR noted in several pages quite the contrary. This statement from one of the many SAIT Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) in August 2013 is interesting and verifies .
“ We have so much evidence that we cannot and will not ever release” about the YH Fire and the GMHS stated a highly experienced YH Fire Investigation SME (August 2013)
These are the many SAIT-SAIR excerpts on the SAIT arrogantly confident shielding the truth from the FFs, WFs, and the American public.
“Because we do not know, and will never know , many of the precise details surrounding the final movements and motivations of the Granite Mountain IHC …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 45) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know for sure, we considered how the Granite Mountain IHC might have reasoned …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 47) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know the answer to this question, it is worth asking: …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 48) (emphasis added)
“We will never know for sure, but we wondered whether the Granite Mountain IHC’s decision to hike through the green might have seemed to them to be a decision to operate in the green just like everyone else.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 52)
(emphasis added)
“We will never know if the crew understood that this route of travel required that they sacrifice some of their capacity to serve as their own lookouts.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
“We will also never know if they understood the calculated risk involved in traversing the final distance to the Ranch without the level of situational awareness that a different vantage point might have afforded.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
The truth is coming out little by little, so stand by because we WILL know the “who, what, when, where, and why”
Joy has some new information and is fact checking now for veracity. Good to be like WTKTT and Joy–strict attention to details and fact. I deal in lots of suppositions–maybe it is part of enjoying the twilight zone–I do think the Psychics have something going and we do have an intuition that keeps some of us on our toes and alive–at least as long as this life will allow. Sadly when some of us begin to mature it is just when the grim reaper comes knocking at our door. The Leprichaun, Karma, and the Reaper are all in Cahoots while the Irish Gods and Jesus, et. al. stand by and watch the show to see how things play out.
But the intuition that day was in me and my urgency was a life saver. So many things we did not know that were going on, yet it has to be a certainty that Marsh and Company had to have the input data. There is a value in instinct and intuition–it has saved me in many instances and listening to your gut feelings can be a valuable trait. There were several times when working as an underground miner I had instinctively jumped back just enough to keep myself from being transferred into a non-edible pancake. You can kill me but you can’t eat me. So I believe it was with Steed that day. He did not want to take his men down yet he let his gut instinct be overridden by a forceful Marsh, again et. al. I do surmise. The fire gods and goddesses are not to be questioned.
Well if Joy does much good, she also sometimes leaves me in suspense–I must continue the novel, though it is written in blood of young wild land fire fighters, to see how it plays out. I have been a side-liner on the bench but then that is where I belong–willing to enter the fray yet not capable or with the abilities of the main players here on Investigative Media. But I can cheer them on since I am of heavy heart for the deaths of those young heroes and I do know the concerns of the men who are the mentors of the young ones doing their job in the danger zone. They indeed are veterans at war as much as the warrior facing Isis in a fire fight.
There will be closure and no matter how well the truth is hidden for so many years, there are youngsters coming of age. Most will not tolerate the lies and BS that has abounded to cover up the true reasons for the deaths of their parent. There are a few parents that are not fooled as well. If there is one thing investigators enjoy, it is that they have a part in the revelation of truth and the closure it brings to the loved ones. No matter how much loved ones might say they just want to move on and let the FS and Fire fighting profession be seen through rose colored glasses, the truth is–in the recesses of their minds they want to know the real reasons for their loved ones tragic ending.
Gary burned a thought in my mind–that is what we wild land fire fighters do–we burn. Yes burn baby burn, so I was thinking of how many crews that were involved in the Yarnell Incident–I am certain you would need more than ten fingers to count them. Maybe Joy has a count–and how many were involved in back burns that day? I would be thinking as Trueheart had been noted by WTKTT–Trueheart’s obvious worry they would get themselves caught in a deadly burning situation–right in the questioned Shrine burn out area. I have no question that is what he meant, I saw the video of the drip torching in that area and if they were doing it near the Shrine in plain sight, then Gary’s statement–that’s what we do stands true.
Those that failed to keep the wrongdoing hidden are coming to exposure. But then it is only a matter to man up and change the way things have evolved into such habits of pasting glitter over these deadly incidents rather than exposing each one in truth so that the system improves–and now if you think the system is working well enough then you are the dummy–not the “hillbilly” Cowboy that said do not get trapped in that Manzanita with that fire nearby.
Donut’s referral to the rules as “hillbilly” was a misnomer. A “hillbilly” Mr. Donut , with a hole in your head, had better sense than to disregard the rules, –he advised to follow the rules and stay in the safe zone where there was no sensible and safe alternative. But then you can educate men–for example Marsh and Steed with the finest of teachers–RTS or Gary–and the training and education goes in one ear and out the other of such folk–they have their own ideas and stubbornly adhere to them without regard to proven wisdom–until they kill their crews and even themselves as shown in the Yarnell incident.
FYI…I am dumbfounded and speechless about what I learned last night and dumbfounded. So…I have to go back on sabbatical and write some more on my book because you know…the fuckin’ thing isn’t going to write itself. And think about things because I’m dumbfounded and speechless and dumbfounded.
You know…that all indicators right now point to the fact that a friendly backfire may have killed our crew.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QGEdc6HxhVA&list=RDQGEdc6HxhVA&start_radio=1
Or perhaps you’re in the mood for something a little more upbeat? “Sadness like water raining down…raining down”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1b9-pjEgEZc&list=RDQGEdc6HxhVA&index=18
Negative. Both too squishy for me
Among other things, mostly my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, these are some of the videos and testimony that inspire me to carry on to reveal the truth about the YH Fire and the GMHS
“Medal of Honor recipient, and the battle that stays forever”
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GDANpZrulk )
“Michael Thornton, Medal of Honor, Vietnam War”
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc1KrzKavns )
the kindness and generosity I have seen from the fire industry- the intelligence – the integrity – I hope it shows as the rest pours out…
I know when I am called home…I know I had the chance to be taught and to laugh—
thank you for that. ...
I have no fear going forward…
My advice to this generation:
Tell the truth…. to yourself first …then to the world
Kayiden, good luck on your meeting – SHINE
that is a lot of people to speak in front of no matter who you are or no matter the topic…
Engage lovingly, thoughtfully and faithfully …
stay away from backward telescopes…
Do not get flummoxed as my pops would say when on that stage.
for anyone who was figuring why I stayed in this thus far…
accountability before God and about how God may work that accountability through human beings…
when I saw peoples’ motions quickly and antiseptically towards me on the aftermath of the YHFire…and also when I hiked them – as some murmured their thank-yous and scuttled the hell away..I knew people came to this aftermath with much judgments…These people did not want to know more about me. They wanted to talk at me and about me and pray at me. Prayer should be a loving act, not a weapon of discounting one another….
There is too much ugliness because of the venom spewed from others which are false.
Gary and RTS- I am going to email you what Jeff Whitney wrote about you with a loved one- you deserve to know that….what you both do with it i up to you but I am tired of holding on to certain areas.
Thank you so much.
Although since Jeff and I are both not only alumnus hotshots from the Mighty Coconino, we are both former Coconino Hotshot Crew Bosses. so…I’m sure it will all be good?
Oh fuck me! Does everyone remember how bitterly I complained years ago because people are always spelling my last name OlsEn?
Do I look Norwegian to you? Well do I? Of course not…because I am obviously SWEDISH!
Far too many people think all of us PEOPLE, you know….Scandinavian Nordic types look alike. What’s up with that?
And you really need to work on your photo resolution Joy. I mean, I really appreciated your efforts but…
It looks like they spelled Fred’s last wrong too. But you know…that’s certainly understandable. Am I right?
I mean, C’mon…Schoeffler? That’s perfectly understandable.
Now I have to figure out how to post this info on my website.
Although based on a quick read…it looks like (Namaste) Jefe was trying to tap that…know what I mean?
I mean…Hotshot Crew Boss Brother Eric Marsh was barely cold in the ground. What’s up with that?
In fact…I strongly suspect Namaste Jefe DID tap that, know what I mean?
OMGosh…Joy said, “remember I pulled everything…I even have Whitney’s dining and hotel and etc receipts and so when I pulled everything even texts and emails you get to learn the BEHIND THE SCENES…sad that Amanda placed false stuff out on you and RTS”
Joy…as I have written many times…you are indeed a national treasure! And just like the Energizer Bunny, you just keep going and going and going…
God Bless America! 🇺🇸
It’s a great day to be me!
I mean…is this a great country or what? The Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management – Office of the State Forester Jeff Whitney…civil service at its finest!
Okay…this was a royal pain in the ass because I transfer words slow and type even slower, but since all of you are indeed among my closest friends and confidants…I did this one special for you so you didn’t have to wait for me to get everything on my website.
“Thank you for sharing Amanda, so noted. Pls do not feel embarrassed nor apologetic for your feelings particularly in view of your sense of place where you and Eric celebrated and where curiously we found ourselves last night. You know I support you and value your friendship. Namaste, Jefe”
OMGosh…I think I found the real life model for Wild Heat (Hot Shots: Men of Fire Book 1) Kindle Edition
by Bella Andre (Author)
4.4 out of 5 stars
Logan Cain is Jefe Whitney in real life!
“Wild Heat” $20.17 (from Amazon, also available on Audiobooks and Kindle)
The love that Jefe Whitney and Mrs. Eric Marsh shared…priceless.
HE’S A HOTSHOT FIREFIGHTER ADDICTED TO RISK. SHE’S THE SULTRY BEAUTY HE NEVER SAW COMING.
Maya Jackson doesn’t sleep with strangers. Until the night grief sent her to the nearest bar and into the arms of the most explosive lover she’s ever had. Six months later, the dedicated arson investigator is coming face to face with him again. Gorgeous, grinning Logan Cain. Her biggest mistake. Now her number-one suspect in a string of deadly wildfires.
Risking his life on a daily basis is what gets Logan up in the morning. As leader of the elite Tahoe Pines Hotshot Crew, he won’t back down from a blaze-or from beautiful, lethal Maya Jackson. She may have seduced him with her tears and her passion, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before Logan lets down his guard again. Until Maya’s life is threatened. With his natural-born hero instincts kicking in, Logan vows to protect the woman sworn to bring him down. And as desire reignites, nothing-not the killer fire or the killer hot on their trail-can douse the flames….
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6060450-wild-heat
What a World Class Dildo…Whitney co-opted the title of;
El Jefe (f. La Jefa) is a Spanish term meaning “the chief” or “the boss” and may refer to: “El Jefe”, a less-common nickname for former Cuban President Fidel Castro (deriving from his title as Comandante en Jefe or “Commander-in-Chief” of the Cuban Armed Forces)
El Jefe – Wikipedia
To use as his nickname and to play off his name…Jeff, because you know, he’s “the Chief” or “the Boss”, or maybe both at the same time…get it? How fuckin’ clever he is, what a smart little man!
What a Dick Wad Guy: Hey did you see that dude over there? Me: Yeah. He’s a dick wad · #jerk#asshole#mean# douche#no.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dick%20wad
Oh…and one more thing Joy, you know I was just teasing you, it all looks great! Thank you a million times over!
Memo 📝 to the Chief, El Jefe:
You know Jefe…sometimes if you fuck with the bull…you get the horn.!
In other words;
A veces, si follas con el toro el jefe, obtienes la bocina.
Or better yet El Jefe;
A veces si follas con el toro, obtienes el cuerno! Estúpido (Asshole)
you are welcome.
Neither one of you deserved to be spoken about like that. Shame on them.
Hallelujah! Can I get an amen?
SOME of their thread? C’mon…the reading was just getting good. Please…please….please, pretty please…with sugar on it!
welcome to my world Gary.
As I began to peel the layers of this I was confused especially certain entities connections
why?
I then knew if it was all revealed on IM- it could vanish so I made sure if I am alive or the others involved that if something was to happen to me or them- it will be from external others or my health is and has not always been the best…I mean who last resorts to drinking actual Timber Rattlesnake and Bushmaster venom three times a day as I have this year. But either way it is coming out even if they harm me or others around me. I already set the dominoes to do just that.
I have asked many on so many levels to help those who will be affected and forgive them.
This was always done to gain facts and truths and I always got WTKTT on what is laid publicly out there but there is so much behind the scenes I have said over time that it sickens me they can sleep at night.
The information that comes out will be actions firefighters normally do that was done June 30 2013 –
when a guy asks the right questions and gets a strange answer let that be watchout number 30…
it is up to 30 now if you have been out of the loop…PJ Lingley (Bear Jaw Hotshot Asst Sup/My S130 S190 instructor) had a few add-ons to the 18 and since more have added to it…when Community Risk Reduction Division Chief Don Devendorf stated to me May 5, 2016 13:00pm “it means as an industry we made note of another five ways to injure or kill wildland firefighters.”
I agree with Don Devendorf… I am bold enough to walk the walk and get the changes to happen versus keep adding numbers to a list. Unless the number is to my Christmas List which for 2019 Gary is on my list. (weird wink….question mark)
I am sorry Pfingston has to see her name on IM like such…it would seem it is enough to lose a son than to have email content placed to the world. I have a lot in my records on the loved ones and I currently am having it fed to the legal system how some of the areas can be presented to the world so people of the social media misrepresenting can be shown to the world what has gone on behind the scenes…So even though this was placed out without me knowing there is much more information to still come out involving the behind the scenes of certain select people tied to the GMHS.
I pray that person(s) cease the behaviors public and private because the rest is coming out even if someone on the SAIT recently stated to me outside the conference less than a minute event happened and if he is telling YOU something different this is exactly what happened- Hey “SAIT GUY”, why did you spew at “him” like that.” and he replies six seconds later “I am not having this conversation.” and I stated “you do know I am coming out with the rest of the story, right” and a few seconds later quickly he stated twice “I am not having this conversation.” within ten seconds he says in fast tone motion “I am asking you to leave me alone”…”leave me alone” as I am overlapping his words saying “okay I get that- but don’t spew in a public fashion (he repeats over my voice calmly “leave me alone”…and he said quickly stated “did you hear me say that?”…”leave me alone” “do I need to get a restraining order against you?” as I overlapped and said “you have no right.” as he looked at a FF (leave his name out) and said “did you hear me ask her how many times.” I replied “No, you did not have to say it redundantly in two seconds- come on “SAIT guy” …”wait until it all comes out and you look like a fool…” as I walked away I mention some DC content so he is in the loop….I did nothing to this man and this freaking topic of Restraining Orders in the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire has been used and abused my way inappropriately and it ends. I will not be bullied by these silly tactics and people being ok to place that on my record- that’s on them but hey it is wrong. What judge would take that above content which was reality…and tap me with a restraining order? This fella one year ago gleefully wanted to hike with me at same conference. It was the next conference after that where it shifted Hmmm….wonder if a certain person helped that shift? The topic he spewed off about – one presenter said what data would one like to see in reports and I will let RTS give his 1st hand reply/experience and then I was told at the bay shore that this man in back of room said Bullshit Fred when Fred said THE TRUTH is what’s lacking in reports…I prefer to leave the SAIT guy’s name out but Fred is his own person and I will not guide him but I keep it out for my sharing experience. I do not need the bullshit but that is what happened since the fella seems to think that less than 1 minute public talk deserves me to get a restraining order…so sad.
Again…all the bullying is over. Everything is set to happen… You want to tell your story than the time is now because once I do officially I have said on IM for a long time you had your chances and I never hood winked one person…they are all in the loop. I gave you all the chance and I did that because it really belongs to YOU to tell it purely and tell it purely because I documented this well and placed all data in right spot that if at any time they went rummaging on me…the data is not on me. A trick my pops taught me when he worked for Sheriff Joe A.-
Trying to orient myself –where exactly are those spot fires RTS posted? Would they be toward the Shrine area. I had to chuckle about Joy and her straightforward manner–tough girl to deal with when someone wants to hide what she knows. What in the world would make you think those fellows that lied will own up to it? They are guilty of omission and commission but with their feathers in their hats and many awards for good deeds, how would you think they could man up to the truth when they have so adamantly adhered to the lies–for example Marsh is a hero? Well perhaps to a dud wild land fire fighter who believes that the proper thing is to call the rules of safety “hillbilly” and the real heroes do as they damn please without regard to the safety of their “Greek God” total confidence man to lead them down into hell. Jim Jones had people brain washed enough to take poison and die with him so they could met Jesus in Heaven–if they did I wonder what Jesus had to say.
So good luck Joy, but I know you were confident the people in the wrong that you confronted would develop a distaste for your exposure of the game of lies and deception and that also would put you in the black out zone among certain circles–something you have had from the beginning.
For instance I never understood how you were kept for support and information involving the movie–your photos above 1500, unrivaled knowledge of the events that killed the GMHS crew and your direct contacts with not only the many wild land fire fighters you interviewed and hiked, as well as personal friendship and acquaintance with nearly every citizen of Yarnell should have made you one of the most important consultants to any movie or book for that matter. But then too the journey of the wild land fire incident to the major powers that be has never been a journey of truth-but it instead had degraded into a journey of egotistical bastards willing to commit perjury at the expense of wild land fire fighter safety. Not enough can be said to shame the coverup when so many people were willing to go along with the lies and follow the Amanda story as the grieving widow–understandable but do it with the truth about Mr. Marsh and how he did carelessly kill his crew.
Human Factors excerpts worth considering.
“The great risk management guru of the 1940’s, Dr. Archand Zeller stated: “The human does not change. During the period of recorded history, there is little evidence to indicate that man has changed in any major respect. Because the man does not change, the kinds of errors he commits remain constant. The errors that he will make can be predicted from the errors he has made.”
From Gordon Graham FBINAA Continued Training http://www.lexipol.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Rickover-FBI-NAA-14.pdf
“Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.”
Barry LePatner
“A review of fatal avalanche accidents involving avalanche-aware victims in the 1990’s shows that human factors are not just a contributor to the accidents but are the primary factor in fatal accidents.” In addition, judgment or lack thereof was the most common human error in both aviation and avalanche incidents.
“The problem is not a lack of information regarding wildland fire fuels, weather, and topography, but is instead the problem is how that information is processed. What interfered with the decision-makers’ judgment at the crucial moment?”
Beighley, M., 1995. Beyond the Safety Zone: Creating a Margin of Safety. Fire Management Notes. Volume 55, Number 4. 21-24.
I”n Psychology, there is a common theory called the Principle of Commitment and Consistency. If people commit (verbally or in writing) to an idea or goal, they are more likely to follow through with it. That is the essence of the Principle of Commitment and Consistency. Humans will often agree to do something if they have already shown evidence that they believe this way. Even if the original incentive or motivation is removed after the agreement, humans will continue to follow through.”
David Goleman (2012) Ten Things You Should Know About Your Brain And Leadership
http://www.thespacesproject.org/ten-things-you-should-know-about-your-brain-and-leadership
Here is a transcript copy of the letter obtained from a Public Records Request and discussed below at these links:
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-478025 )
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-478037 )
“From: Deborah Pfingston [email address]
Sent: Thursday January [28 or 29], 2015 7:53 AM (time ?)
To: Reuben Orozco
Subject: Re: Yarnell Fire
“Thank you for including me on all you and your group’s hard work. We have been very busy trying to right some injustices and it has been a battle.
“In this section in your closing you state:
“’In closing, we would like to consider the unofficial rumor that GMHS were coerced into leaving a good black safety zone to move to the ranch. Had the GMHS been adequately trained in reading the fire’s next dangerous move, they would not have made the fateful decisions that led to their deaths. If all the firefighters had been equipped with the proper assessment training, Marsh or anyone else would not have been able to convince them to make the choice that they did.’” (THIS ENTIRE PARAGRAPH WAS ALL BOLDED AND IN QUOTES IN THE ORIGINAL RECORD)
“I am not sure how comfortable I am with the comment about ‘adequately trained’ because I know that GMHS had not received all of the weather information. No matter how much training you have if you are not given all the facts it can lead to mishap. I will leave the ‘coerced’ fact to the Lord – I pray He convicts the men’s hearts who know the truth.
“I do have a request (if possible) I know that there is a software program that can build then show fire progression based on input. Would it be possible to work with this software and put in the fire information that we have about Yarnell and see if it predicts the growth of this fire [that] they state?
“I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain. Yes there were all the facts that your group has so brilliantly shown but please lets not lose sight that we are still fighting for the complete truth.”
“If you have any questions or need anything further let me know. I look forward to the opportunity to see the software.
“God is so good – [may] His peace guide you,“
Thanks for the background. Even if they don’t have it figured out, that sounds like one powerhouse group of FIRE brain power and experience. I mean…they don’t have HAL 9000, but still…
And are you saying you that believe that Pfingston has it figured out with this bold statement, or she only thinks she has it figured out? Because if you are saying you believe she has it figured out, you are confirming you believe without equivocation that a back fire did kill the crew and not the main fire?
“I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain.”
Because you know…I think YOU know everything that happened that day, so if you are saying you believe Pfingston has it figured out without equivocation, ergo I’m pretty much going to take that check to the bank to at least see if it bounces or not?
Elementary my Dear Watson!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lag22Hl2RQw
So…have I finally built a cage around you, you slippery guy you!
I guees that shoukd have been a question mark and not an exclamation mark…just you know…FYI!
Wow! I GUESS that SHOULD have been a question mark and not an exclamation mark! My proof reader has got to go!
Ye Olde Gary,
I need your help. I could use the assistance of a former Senior Special Agent, Supervisor.
Since I believe a crime or crimes took place surrounding the events of 6/30/13, and the standard for prosecution is beyond a reasonable doubt because it’s a criminal matter and not civil, which standard would be the preponderance of evidence (51%), I need help explaining myself.
There is direct and indirect forms of evidence which can corroborate the existence of events which occurred as material facts in a case. Since I’m dusting off my recollection of the rules of evidence, can you help put into simpler terms what I’m speaking of?
My train of thought is that “the big bad fire did not come & get them” nor do ” bad things sometimes happen to good people.” Overt acts and/or negligent acts occurred which killed 19 firefighters on a wildfire in the single worst disaster on record.
Beyond the criminal matter is of course civil liability, which I believe is also a significant elephant in the room.
Please help me hash this out. Your assistance is greatly appreciated!
Hmmm. This is going to require some serious thought 💭
She stated many things that we have been abiding by and heeding in order to discover and reveal the many hidden truths about the YH Fire and the GMHS:
“I will leave the ‘coerced’ fact to the Lord – I pray He convicts the men’s hearts who know the truth.”
“Yes there were all the facts that your group has so brilliantly shown but please lets not lose sight that we are still fighting for the complete truth.”
The “complete truth” is often very difficult for some to deal with it and – in the end – it’s still the truth, as painful as it may be.
WE have been and “are still fighting for the complete truth.”
Woodsman put it quite right because it is “calling a spade a spade. … A lack of independent free-thinkers in our business has led to what we still have today: cognitively dissonant cowards & hypocrites enabling managers protecting their own interests and burying firefighters while wrecking loved ones lives. The dim view of life is astonishing.”
“In order to properly deal with something you must call it what it is.”
Gary,
Based on all that I know so far, I do believe and hereby allege that the GMHS were killed by “friendly fire” from a firing operation for many reasons dealing with the Lookouts, Communications, and Escape Routes components of LCES.
Her recently revealed statement as “fact” merely strengthens that firing operation account with her: “I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact …” She is pretty convinced herself with both “I stand firm” AND “It was this fact …”
The rest of her statement: “… along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain” is what I disagree with.
The “weather change” was a minor causal factor. They had the best view of the fire, the weather, the fire behavior, EVERYTHING – except Air Attack. However, AA had all those aircraft radio distractions visually and audibly in their headsets and all around and below them.
For sure, the GMHS had their own distractions …
But they friggin’ argued and discussed “their options” and watched the fire below them for at least “52 minutes” —- “52 MINUTES!” — while the incrementally increasing fire weather intensely increased the fire behavior EXPONENTIALLY – and according to Air Attack Bravo 33 – the fire burned through that death bowl and up through that saddle above them more intensely than he had ever witnessed in his career.
( https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/escape-routes1 )
RTS,
“Based on all that I know so far, I do believe and hereby allege that the GMHS were killed by “friendly fire” from a firing operation for many reasons dealing with the Lookouts, Communications, and Escape Routes components of LCES.”
I appreciate you calling a spade a spade. You went for it. A lack of independent free-thinkers in our business has led to what we still have today: cognitively dissonant cowards & hypocrites enabling managers protecting their own interests and burying firefighters while wrecking loved ones lives. The dim view of life is astonishing. Thank you for doing the right thing and dealing with what you have to to do it.
“In order to properly deal with something you must call it what it is.”
Well okay then…I guess that pretty much lays it out? And all I can think of to say right now is…OMGosh!
Oh…and one more thing.
Thank you.
And no…even if it is proved to be a 100% accurate fact that satisfies even WTKTT’s fact based conclusion process, there is nothing that can ever absolve Eric Marsh of his ultimate responsibility for the deaths of his crew due to his reckless and criminally negligent decisions and subsequent actions.
And by the same logic…Jesse Steed is guilty of the same crime except if I were on the jury, I would use my prerogative to declare “not guilty” based on jury nullification. And jury nullification can happen due to a lot of factors that have nothing to do with guilt or innocence of the accused. It can be a factor simply because a jury member does not like the law, or the color of tie the prosecutor wore during his closing argument.
And if we get down into the weeds, there remains the fact that Steed was the crew boss and not Marsh at the time the fatal decision was made, therefore Steed is guilty but Marsh isn’t, but I maintain Marsh never relinquished control of the crew to Steed because he was Eric Marsh and everything that entailed.
I’ve reconsidered addressing the “S” prong of LCES above, so I’ll do it here.
This is from a paper titled: “It Could Not Be Seen Because It Could Not Be Believed on June 30, 2013” regarding the “lunch spot” causal factors on several fatality wildfires.
( https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-94391-6_22 )
“2.2 Consequences of Inattention – Fatality Fires and ‘Lunch Spot’ Nexus Theory
“Additionally, the multi-fatality South Canyon (1994), 30-Mile (2001), and YH (2013) Fires shared a common element when the WF disengaged to a designated ‘Lunch Spot’. In this setting, due to numerous physiological and psychological circumstances, e.g. fatigue, stress, dehydration, alcohol-related impairment (hangovers), diversions, distractions, interruptions, etc. – time essentially stood still. In each of these above noted tragic wildfires, when the WF reengaged, they were evidently unmindful of basic wildland firefighting training and evident fire weather and fire behavior markers favored staying put. They were so engrossed with “discussing their options” of staying put or reengaging, they ceased observing more pressing tasks, like weather. They let go of strategic management for less serious, less vital events, i.e. strategy omission [20].
“Credible research on attention found when someone is otherwise engaged, at times they fail to “see” otherwise noticeable, fully visible, – yet unexpected objects or events, i.e. ‘inattentional blindness’ (IB)”. A likely severe result is that it can sometimes lead one to miss items that one wanted or, more importantly, needed to experience [21], [22]. If one’s attention is set for a certain number of primary-task items and the offered items meet their expectation, the individual may be more likely to exhibit IB for an unforeseen and yet likely critical visual event [21], [22].
“This may help make some sense of why the GMHS and others faced and then reacted to this obscure hazardous phenomenon.”
The Wildland Fire Non-Lessons Learned Center actually posted on this very same “Lunch Spot” issue, however, with a slightly different, more subtle angle.
“The Lunch Spot Spring 2014, Volume 4, Issue 1” (never have been able to get the WLFLLC links to work on IM)
“When the smoke is churning and we’re slamming line, the physical location of the Lunch Spot often coincides with a decision point. It’s commonly a spot offering a safe place to take a tactical pause. It might not always take place while the crew is eating, but the decisions made in those moments can literally determine life and death.”
“So What?
“So what? Is this moment in time on a fire even significant? Obviously, with hindsight, we can argue it is significant. It might not go down exactly as described or always take place while the crew is eating, but these conditions and the decisions made in those moments can literally determine life and death. So what usually happens? Maybe a conscious decision about strategy is made or a casual request for assistance comes across the radio. Maybe we just notice a way we could be of use—and BAM—the afternoon action is on.
“The Conscious Decision
“The conscious decision about strategy sounds something like:“Hey, let’s gear up and head back to the trucks; looks like we are going big box on this thing.”That usually gets a few hoots and a grin or two—the likelihood of big burn shows and 16’s just went way up. We’ll prep anything you want for a chance at the torch.
“Obviously, the conscious decision could come in all different forms. … Either way, it’s an intentional action—based on the observed conditions. Often times, a change in strategy calls for a tactical relocation. In those moments we think about efficiency and how we can contribute. We weigh options and make a decision based on what we currently know.Maybe we head off to a ranch. Usually we make it to the ranch, sometimes we barely make it to the ranch, and once in a great while we become proof that this work environment is way more complex and dangerous than we are willing to acknowledge.”
______
“Because of our history, those two words have come to represent a critical decision point. It’s the small window we have to put real thought into: What we’re facing; What really matters; and What we’re willing to risk. So let’s use it.
“Are We Heading Off to Repeat History?
After the shock of Yarnell Hill and all the other tragedies of 2013, we—as the Wildland Fire Service—are currently at the “Lunch Spot”.
________
“I’m terrified we’re not acknowledging the gravity of the situation, not using this pause to genuinely take stock of what we are facing. Does what we’re doing make sense? I’m afraid we’re going to gear-up with good intentions and unknowingly head off to repeat history.”
Really? “Terrified we’re not acknowledging the gravity of the situation”
The vast majority of WFs have acknowledged it, are not terrified, and continue to carry on safely and efficiently doing their “inherently dangerous” jobs very effectively.
Like I said, I consider them the the Non-WLFLLC because of this kind of fatalistic attitude and conclusions.
And that’s what happens when we have Incomplete Lessons Learned from cover-ups and lies instead of Complete Lessons Learned based on fact and the truth of what Human Factors and Human Failures caused these wildland fire fatalities.
It certainly was NOT fuels, weather, topography, and fire behavior. There are a lot of people that get it and they are definitely making ore of a positive impact that the Non-WLFLLC.
Check out Matt Holmstrom’s Common Denominators on Tragedy Fires – Updated for a New (Human) Fire Environment.
( https://www.iawfonline.org/article/common-denominators-tragedy-fires-updated/ )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 22, 2019 at 1:09 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here is a transcript copy of the letter obtained from a Public Records Request
————————————————————————————————-
From: Deborah Pfingston [email address]
Sent: Thursday January [28 or 29], 2015 7:53 AM (time ?)
To: Reuben Orozco
Subject: Re: Yarnell Fire
( snip )
I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon.
It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain. Yes there were all the facts that your group has so brilliantly shown but please lets not lose sight that we are still fighting for the complete truth.
( snip )
————————————————————————————————–
It is absolutely NO SECRET that Deborah Pfingston ( biological mother of deceased GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell ) has always believed there was a manual ‘back burn’ that took place in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
She came onto this ongoing public discussion way back on April 12, 2014 and flat-out said so.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vi-comments/#comment-24173
—————————————————————————————————
On April 12, 2014 at 8:11 am, Deborah Pfingston said…
Thank you for doing this digging for me.
I have theory – of which I have had many but discover they won’t work –
I really think there was a back burn set possibly by the trailers.
Thoughts!
—————————————————————————————————
She then went on to ask for any information about ‘crews’ or ‘engines’ that might have been out at the extreme west end of ‘West Way’, by the Jerry Thompson lookout location.
She also said she had (quote) “lots of research” of her own on this ‘burn out’ possibility.
The only mysteries have always been what HER ‘original sources’ were… and if she ended up discovering things herself that are still not ( yet ) publicly known.
** APOLOGY
Okay… REALLY bad TYPO ( and brain fart ) in the message just above.
Deborah Pfingston is the biological mother of GM hotshot Andrew Ashcraft… and NOT Robert Caldwell.
My sincere apologies for that.
I do wish we could ‘edit’ these posts after hitting ‘send’.
WTKTT,
Thank you for the post and the opportunity to go back to former 2014 posts with photos and videos from Dropboxes as well. LOTS of good discussion and good information for what we know now.
Pfingston posted: “I really think there was a back burn set possibly by the trailers.”
I’m not quite sure what she means by “the trailers” other than those FFs and / or WFs that were trailing behind the rest of the other FFs and / or WFs performing (manual) hand ignitions.
AZ Forestry Jake Guidiana (sp?) stated in March 2019 that they watched the June 30, 2013, smoke columns from those alleged burn outs all day.
Moreover, also learned in March 2019, that the “one other” noted in the SAIT-SAIR is / was BRHS Will Trahain (p?) that worked with BRHS HEQB Cory Ball that day.
So…RTS my old friend, surely you know that you are indeed one of my dearest and best friends from back in the day? I’m sure you remember how close we were at one time and I for one…would like to see that close relationship blossom yet once again before this veil of tears is finally lifted you and I can pass to dwell in the eternal fire camp together, at least once in a while for old times sake?
That being said…I’m sure you will agree that no important or meaningful matter should remain a secret between us when it comes to our shared passion and of course our common desire and commitment to see truth, justice and the American way rule the day when it comes to the YHF Disaster? And even though I have debated greatly within my own soul whether or not to dare to ask this question, I have decided that I must because you are so plugged in to the WLF Matrix due to the fact you are so respected as the longest serving and assuredly one of the living legends and great hotshot crew bosses of all time, you know…for the ages.
Is the reason you keep coming back to the possibility that a friendly backfire may have emerged from the Shrine area, in addition to your commitment to not only endorsing but giving your full, enthusiastic, and unqualified support while rising to not only defend but to promote our precious Joy’s important and impressive work on her website, in spite of WTKTT’s negative response to date just because he insists there is no evidence to support her insistence that such a backfire did in fact not only occur, but that dreadful event was actually responsible for the deaths of our crew because you know that it be true from your reliable and trustworthy sources of information (SOI’s) within the WLF community and you have been trying your best to communicate that to us, in spite of my recalcitrant and inexcusable attitude and failure to get with the program, which of course I apologize for and feel terrible about, without actually coming right out and saying as much so as to maintain your vow of confidentiality to your SOI’s and that is the Great Secret…Hmmm? Well…is it old friend?
Oh…and one more thing. I just want you to know that I have turned my life around and I now fully support our President…Donald J. Trump and wish him all the best while I spit on progressives and the Mueller Report except for the parts where it fully exonerates our Dear Leader, no collusion…no conspiracy. God Bless America!
Whoops…I fucked up the messaging and talking points, my bad!
No Collusion…No Obstruction! God Bless America and President Donald J. Trump! 🇺🇸
Gary,
Thanks for the kudos My Friend. Not so sure on the well respected part from many WFs because of my stance on the YH Fire and the GMHS. “Just let it go, leave it alone, you’re dishonoring the dead, etc.” is what I often hear.
This has got to be THE longest sentence I have ever read: “Is the reason you keep coming back to the possibility that a friendly backfire may have emerged from the Shrine area, in addition to your commitment to not only endorsing but giving your full, enthusiastic, and unqualified support while rising to not only defend but to promote our precious Joy’s important and impressive work on her website, in spite of WTKTT’s negative response to date just because he insists there is no evidence to support her insistence that such a backfire did in fact not only occur, but that dreadful event was actually responsible for the deaths of our crew because you know that it be true from your reliable and trustworthy sources of information (SOI’s) within the WLF community and you have been trying your best to communicate that to us, in spite of my recalcitrant and inexcusable attitude and failure to get with the program, which of course I apologize for and feel terrible about, without actually coming right out and saying as much so as to maintain your vow of confidentiality to your SOI’s and that is the Great Secret…Hmmm?”
Did you even take a breath on that one?
The June 30, 2013, Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operation is and was a very real, very probable event that occurred and was viewed and documented by many.
I was referring to the WLF who value the lives of the next hotshot crew who will eventually join our dead from the El Cariso (12) Mormon Lake (3) and Prineville Hotshots (9). And now, those from the worst disaster in hotshot history, the dead NINETEEN Granite Mountain Hotshots more than they do, well…I’m not sure what the others could possibly value more than the lives of our dead from the next crew who will eventually join our hotshot disaster roster?
I have found a certain clarity and appreciation for life did come with the years that I would like to share with others I love and pray can can eventually join us. Because being a retired WLF is really a good life. 🙂
(People are only so interested in hearing my story and when they ask…I claim WLF status because that is always were my heart has been).
Because there is one thing I am very sure of…once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, but three times is definitely a pattern. There will be a next time…it’s just a question of when it will happen not if it will happen. 🙁
Historical Footnote, I like to include the 9 Prineville Hotshots who were burned to death on the South Canyon Fire which is commonly called the Storm King Mountain Fire so we don’t forget them. But they were under the direct supervision of the Incident Commander who was the [Smoke] Jumper-in Charge of the fire at the time of the disaster. Hotshot culture doesn’t give Squad Bosses the status to directly challenge Incident Commanders, especially when they are also the JIC since the WLF culture does give so much deference to smokejumpers.
And yes, I really outdid myself with that run on sentence…I think I might have set a new personal best? 🤔
Thank goodness we have been joined by so many people (non WLF) who care as much as we do and have contributed so much to this historical record.
Oh…and one more thing. Thank goodness for John Dougherty and Investigative Media because without him, we would not have had a voice. I do believe most of the answers are here on this thread and I have to believe before it is all over…all of the answers will be here for future generations. 🇺🇸
And just one more thing. I don’t know which WLF you are referring to Fred, but the world is full of people who talk the talk, but you walked the walk no one else did and very few WLF who have ever saddled up to hump up the mountain could have walked. So…fuck them and the ponies they rode in on. This is for them…dry. 🍆
There are lots of WFs with that attitude.
I feel that we are honoring the fallen by revealing the truth and exposing the lies while “they” and their ilk are dishonoring them with their cover-ups and whitewashes and blatantly false, predetermined conclusions.
After all, “The Team found no indications of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol” in their “Factual” Serious Accident Investigation Report (September 28, 2013 SAIT-SAIT page 10 ) where the readers are told to come to their own conclusions.
What a sick and twisted joke …
Joy A Collura says
APRIL 20, 2019 AT 1:40 PM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Please use this link to participate in keeping the site existing by donating here:
htt ps: //ww w.investigativemedia.c om/
Please support independent investigative journalism by making tax-deductible contributions to the Arizona Center for Investigative Journalism, an IRS-approved nonprofit corporation.
h ttp: //arizonawatch.org/donate/
Sometimes his link is down but I strongly suggest to contact him and let him know if that happens.
https://ww w.investigativemedia.co m/contact/
also—
WHAT ARE THESE?
I see them on every page?
Why have you not joined that Gary to pull your own webpage to here with the ad slots?
In the history of IM I have donated a lot of funds and I have no income.
How about the pension of yours— help keep the page not just afloat but going strong.
Also what is this:
Your ads will be inserted here by
Easy Plugin for AdSense.
Please go to the plugin admin page to
Paste your ad code OR
Suppress this ad slot.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on
April 20, 2019 at 5:08 pm
>> Joy A Collura asked…
>>
>> Also what is this:
>>
>> Your ads will be inserted here by
>>
>> Easy Plugin for AdSense.
>>
>> Please go to the plugin admin page to
>> Paste your ad code OR
>> Suppress this ad slot.
That just means that a recent software upgrade is now automatically inserting a ‘template’ that COULD be used to display an ‘AdSense’ advertising image in that ‘square’… but it has not been ‘implemented’.
As it says…
“Paste your ad code OR Suppress this ad slot”.
No ‘ad code’ has been implemented… AND the ‘ad slot’ has NOT been supressed. The same template that now comes with the software upgrade is still just sitting there visible on the page.
Hallelujah! Can I get an amen? AMEN!
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 19, 2019 at 12:51 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The June 30, 2013, Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing
>> Operation is and was a very real, very probable event that
>> occurred and was viewed and documented by many.
Which is it? Very REAL… or still just very PROBABLE?
Those are actually two incompatible “levels of verification”.
Has to be one or the other.
You have stated your reasons for “protecting your sources” many times, and I totally respect them… but you know me… always ready to “probe around the edges” and see what ( if anything ) can be publicly known.
So I have a question.
If there really is actual “documentation” regarding this event… can you simply confirm what TIME it took place that day?
WTKTT,
You make a valid point on the “Very REAL… or still just very PROBABLE” question. I agree with you that they are “actually two incompatible ‘levels of verification'” and that it “Has to be one or the other.”
I mentioned the probable based on what some FFs, WFs, and other people have concluded based on the suggestive evidences presented by the multiple photo and video images of separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes).
Based on metadata from June 30, 2013, photos and videos as well as FF and WF anecdotes of those on the fire, the best estimates on the timing of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operation were sometime after 1615 (4:15 PM).
This is also based on the Brian Lauber photo series (1629 – 4:29 PM) and the recently discovered ABC News 15 photo at 1631 (4:31 PM).
And the fact that the only other evidences of that firing operation were based upon the July 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Library video witnessed by over 20 WFs, FFs, and citizens indicating actual firefighters ‘wearing Nomex and using drip torches, and in an area in The Shrine where the rock wall was visible.’ This was also viewed on YouTube for a time until BOTH of these mysteriously disappeared (as so many YH Fire records have).
The “real” evidence is based upon those sources that wish to remain protected (i.e. FFs, WFs, and citizens) that were actually involved and / or provided evidences in the form of photos, videos, audios, and / or anecdotes.
Hopefully, some of these folks will feel comfortable enough at some point to change their minds about their anonymity and / or there will be more FFs, WFs, and citizens that were involved or have records and evidences that come forward and begin posting on this IM site.
I have no idea where this will post because I clicked on the reply link below your post and it to the bottom of the Chapter XXVI.
This is a newly discovered Arizona Republic / azcentral photo that I came across that adds to the plethora of suggestive evidence.
Here is a link to an article written in August 25, 2013 that clearly shows a photo of separate and distinct smoke columns in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor. It’s near the very bottom of the article.
“Vanessa Purdy took this picture of the Yarnell Hill fire approaching her home just minutes before she received an immediate evacaution notice on the reverse 911 system.”
( https://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/2013 0807yarnell-hill-fire-rebuild-hope.html# )
Hopefully, this link will work because the one I originally posted did not.
( https://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130807yarnell-hill-fire-rebuild-hope.html# )
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 20, 2019 at 11:31 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Hopefully, this link will work because the
>> one I originally posted did not.
>>
>> https://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130807yarnell-hill-fire-rebuild-hope.html#
That link works. Thanks.
Yes… I have seen that photo before… at the ‘last house’ in Glen Ilah right alonside the driveway that leads out to the Boulder Springs Ranch. The Purdy home was completely lost in the fire.
There is a SECOND ‘Vanessa Purdy’ photo taken from that exact same location, at that exact same time, looking even more ‘northward’ than the first one ( and back towards the Shrine Road area ).
That ‘second’ Vanessa Purdy photo is still here, accompanying this article…
OUTDOORSTORMS.COM
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: ( Unknown date )
Last Modified: 05/21/2017
By: Tom Dolan
http://outdoorstorms.com/yarnellhillfire.htm
That ‘second’ Vanessa Purdy photo is the TWELFTH one down, in the series of photos that appear under the article.
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that SECOND ‘Vanessa Purdy’ photo which accompanies the article listed above..
Notice the ‘timestamp’ of 4:30 PM in the image filename itself….
http://outdoorstorms.com/images/YarnellFireImages/YarnellSequence_FireSpread_430PM_TDolan.jpg
Also notice the FIFTH photo ( from the top down ) in that article above.
It is credited to ‘Kurt Florman’, and it shows the fireline coming across that ‘middle bowl’ at exactly 3:36 PM, just 5 minutes after Byron Kimball’s SECOND weather alert over the TAC channel.
It was taken from an elevated vantage point in Glen Ilah, looking BACK north at the fireline now ‘racing’ south across that ‘middle bowl’ and straight for Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
And YES… those ARE the two ‘white’ Granite Mountain Crew Carriers there in the lower left corner of the photo, still sitting where they were parked in the Sesame clearing area.
Just moments after this photo was taken, Brian Frisby would then accidentally ‘stumble’ across Brendan McDonough evacuating his lookout position ( obviously in the nick of time )… and the process of then MOVING those Granite Mountain Crew Carriers began.
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that ‘FIFTH from the top’ photo I’m talking about now…
http://outdoorstorms.com/images/YarnellFireImages/YarnellSequence_FrontReversal_336PM_TDolan.jpg
WTKTT, thanks for the additional Yarnell resident photos indicating a firing operation.
This is an interesting addition to the verification of an actual firing operation.
I came across this from a Public Rescords Request about a January 28, 2015, email from Deborah Pfingston to Reuben Orozco “RE: Yarnell Fire” where she acknowledges that there was in “fact” a firing operation (no telling where she got her information}
“I STAND FIRM THAT THERE WAS A BACK BURN THAT CAME UP THAT CANYON. IT WAS THIS FACT ALONG WITH THE WEATHER CHANGE THAT THE IC NEVER SENT OUT because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain. YES THERE WERE ALL THE FACTS that your group has so brilliantly shown but please LETS NOT LOSE SIGHT THAT WE ARE STILL FIGHTING FOR THE COMPLETE TRUTH.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Citing from IM article: Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Ignored Major Mistakes by the State. October 17, 2013 By John Dougherty
“The report “is a shell game in so many ways that it does a disservice to what we know about fire management,” says Paul Orozco, a retired U.S. Forest Service fire-management officer who participated in the investigation into the deaths of four firefighters in the 2001 Thirtymile Fire near Winthrop, Washington.”
Orozco was a member of a group of former WFs addressing the issues of the YH Fire in order to prevent any further WF fatalities.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 21, 2019 at 9:19 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, thanks for the additional
>> Yarnell resident photos
>> indicating a firing operation.
I ( me, personally ) am in no way ‘suggesting’ that is what the photograph(s) ‘indicate’. I was just making sure you were aware that there has always been more than just ONE photograph taken at that Vanessa Purdy residence/location the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> This is an interesting addition
>> to the verification of an
>> actual firing operation.
It is, in fact, an ‘interesting’ photograph… but again… I ( me, personally ) do not know WHAT it may or may not ‘indicate’ and/or ‘verify’.
The annotated text on the photograph itself says it indicates how (quote) “Spot fires quickly developed ahead of the main fire”..
Whether that is based on actual eyewitness information coming from the person who took the photograph… or just a ‘guess’ on the part of the person publishing the photograph… I ( me, personally ) do not know.
WTKTT,
Both photographs indicate suggestive evidence of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing operation on the afternoon of June 30, 2013
Deep-six entirely your use of the term “suggestive evidence” for sheer weakness & inaplicability. It’s junk.
Work within the terms corroborating & circumstantial in order to make meaningful progress in the development of the theory. Repeated use of “suggestive” makes you sound like you don’t have much confidence in your position and isn’t used in these situations anyway.
Woodsman,
Yes sir. Copy that. And point well taken on the use of that feckless term.
It was one I borrowed from Alan Sinclair at the March2016 Central Arizona Wildfire Response Team (CAWRT) RT-130 Refresher
( http://johnmacleanbooks.com/yarnell/sinclair.shtml )
Please forgive me for my indiscretion. I must have been caught up in the moment or something
Any other points of preference that you’d like to bring up … just let it on out Brother
Does anybody know who Reuben Orozco’s group is and where their information is stored? For some reason Deborah Pfingston thinks they have it figured out.
Thanks for understanding that I’m trying to help. I’d just say go for it. The photo showing 2 distinct fire fronts is a whopper. Clearly 2 separate fire fronts came from somewhere. They both can’t be the main fire front. Therefore one is a ground ignition (which is reasonable & known common practice in wildland firefighting). No suggestion required – it’s corroborating evidence of ground ignitions.
The multitude of personnel documented in the area in question with the tools and capability of initiating ground ignitions is strong circumstantial evidence. The statement from True in the video of “making sure people arent burning themselves out, GD!” is more strong circumstantial evidence of ground ignitions having occurred in the area.
And so on and so forth.
Thanks, friend.
Gary,
A quick post here to advise that I will post an answer above since this has no more “reply” options left other than how we’re doing it
Moreover, Orozco’s group has no official name. It was / is a group of six retired USFS Fire Staff, Managment Officers, and two Hot Shot Crew Superintendents with each one having over 30 years of wildland fire experience.
I question whether this group had it “figured out.”
However, I do believe the Pfingston has it figured out with this bold statement:
“I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain.”
Interesting article with a chart showing the number of WLF fatalities in the U.S. from 2007 – 2016.
https://qz.com/1470741/the-blazes-californias-wildland-firefighters-are-battling-now-are-the-future-of-the-golden-state/
Although on closer examination, it looks like their chart is way off for 2013 even though they quote the National Interagency Fire Center statistics, so I have to question the rest of the article. For one thing, they say all hotshot crews work for the U. S. Forest Service…so never mind.
Although I am going to order this book since the guy is a professor of Sociology now and a former WLF who did his thesis on the crew he worked on. So…it should be accurate and enlightening?
On the Fireline: Living and Dying with Wildland Firefighters
Matthew DesmondNovember 15, 2008
University of Chicago Press
1
Buy as GiftAdd to Wishlist
Free sample$4.20 $3.40 Rent$28.00 $15.12 Ebook
In this rugged account of a rugged profession, Matthew Desmond explores the heart and soul of the wildland firefighter. Having joined a firecrew in Northern Arizona as a young man, Desmond relates his experiences with intimate knowledge and native ease, adroitly balancing emotion with analysis and action with insight. On the Fireline shows that these firefighters aren’t the adrenaline junkies or romantic heroes as they’re so often portrayed.
An immersion into a dangerous world, On the Fireline is also a sophisticated analysis of a high-risk profession—and a captivating read.
“Gripping . . . a masterful account of how young men are able to face down wildfire, and why they volunteer for such an enterprise in the first place.”—David Grazian, Sociological Forum
“Along with the risks and sorrow, Desmond also presents the humor and comaraderie of ordinary men performing extraordinary tasks. . . . A good complement to Norman Maclean’s Young Men and Fire. Recommended.”—Library Journal
COLLAPSE
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Matthew Desmond is a doctoral student in the Department of Sociology at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.
FYI, the two previous posts aren’t the non sequitur they appear to be because the book is mentioned in the article I told you “never mind” about reading.
The author even has a Chapter titled, “The Incompetent Dead”, which kinda reflects my thinking except for truly random accidents that are anomalies. I think almost all deaths and seriuis injuries can be traced back to human error, even if that human error was made when they received deeply flawed training in the case of the current fire shelter training.
And like RTS and Bob like to write, if people followed the rules, they wouldn’t end up dead except for very rare occasions.
Book Review/Compte Rendu
Matthew Desmond, On the Fireline: Living and Dying with Wildland Firefighters. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2007, 368 pp. $US 24.00 hardcover (978-0-226-14408-5)
In the wake of 9/11, firefighters became popular heroes. In addition to whatever role they, as one of several paramilitary occupational groups (police, border guards, coast guard), play in what Althusserians referred to as the repressive state apparatus, they also serve a protective function that requires that the mostly working-class men who typically fill such jobs willingly step into situations that everyone else should and does, at least if they are able, flee. How this happens, why such individuals ac- cept and deal with this kind of risk, is the central issue of this book. In the wake of 9/11 one might fear that this is going to be another celebration of unsung American heroes. There is no need to worry. Desmond’s pres- entation is full of respect for the men that were his research participants, but it is a thoughtful and at times critical analysis of the interactions be- tween the structuring structures of a specific masculine habitus, the per- ception and management of risk by the firefighters, and the bureaucratic cultures and institutions in which they are enmeshed.
On the Fireline is explicitly situated as an analysis of risk, especially how it is perceived and managed by rural working class men who fight forest fires in the hot, dry, American southwest. At its core is a focus on what the author calls country masculinity and how this fits in an al- most totalizing manner with the US Forest Service’s wildland firefight- ing bureaucracy. At one level the argument is quite simple. The answer to the question “why do wildland firefighters take such a risky job?” is that the country masculinity of the firefighters that Desmond worked with, studied, and writes about provides them with the dispositions, the habitus, that the firefighting bureaucracy needs. They find themselves reflected in the “organizational common sense” of the Forest Service. The institution itself does not have to work very hard to socialize these men into a reality in which firefighting is not perceived as overly risky if the rules of engagement are followed. It only needs to tweak them a little. Their combination of practical, technical skill, physical toughness, sense of individual responsibility, love of wild rurality, and eschewal of the etiquette of polite urban society comprises many of the values that are essential to being a successful wildland firefighter. Interestingly, Desmond emphasizes that the young men are not reckless on the job. They do not celebrate foolish acts of supposed bravery. They do, however, largely accept the notion that death and injury are for the most part the result of individual error.
The book succeeds on several levels. It is a highly readable, at times funny, very insightful, Bourdieu-inspired ethnography of country mas- culinity, and as such very useful for courses on masculinity. It is a fine example of how to apply structuration theory and, therefore, a good re- source for classes in social theory. It also offers a penetrating examina- tion of the logic of bureaucratic organization and the way it creates a common sense world in which blame is always individualized and thus diverted from the structural and institutional factors that may lead, in the case of wildland firefighters at least, to unnecessary injury and death.
Indeed, Chapter 8, a deconstruction of the official explanation of the death of a colleague from burn injuries caused by being caught in a fire is a great case study in critical thinking, as well as an indictment of the common sense understanding of a firefighter’s death within the US For- est Service. Finally, the book as a whole is a detailed exposition of the view that risk is a context-dependent concept.
The key theoretical concept employed by Desmond is Bourdieu’s habitus. It has, of course, proven to be very useful but it is well known that even though Bourdieu argued that any particular habitus had to be historicized, the concept lends itself more to synchronic than to dia- chronic analyses. This book does not totally escape the problems this generates. Marxian-influenced thinkers have held that one of the features of working-class culture that distinguishes it from bourgeois dispositions is its collective rather than individualist orientation. The country mas- culinity of Desmond’s rural working-class men is shot through with a kind of individualism, one that easily falls prey to blame-the-victim ex- planations. Some discussion of the characteristics of the political econ- omy of rural America that produces this perhaps unique working-class individualism would help here. Details of the family backgrounds of the key informants and workmates that form the subjects of the book are of- fered but some broader social, political and economic contextualization of country masculinity would add some dynamism to the interpretation. Contemporary country masculinity emerged from and in a particular set of circumstances and will transform as the circumstances evolve. The appeal of dangerous jobs to rural working-class men is undoubtedly somewhat influenced by the labour market opportunities open to them, as well as by their culture. In Distinctions Bourdieu argued that working- class culture was marked by necessity; ndividuals come to prefer that to which they are in any case limited. Some discussion of the limitations of the rural United States that generated the tastes and dispositions of Des- mond’s key informants would make their habitus seem less sui generis and free floating.
None the less, On the Fireline offers a thick and rich take on a par- ticular version of rural, masculine, working-class culture in the United States and how it fits with an institutional setting that requires young men to do dangerous work. It offers another example of how social sys- tems are unconsciously reproduced and thus helps us understand how and why young men willingly put themselves in harm’s way.
Wow…even though I have a minor in Sociology, this book might give me a headache to try and read it? Although if I am tracking the book review correctly and the book review tracks the book correctly, I think the author might be right on target?
Just…FYI.
Repeat…awaiting moderation?
And that is because as I have written many times. as a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fies, I can track all of the hotshot deaths in history to the criminal negligent incompetence of three men, El Cariso Hotshot. Crew Boss Gordon King, Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew Boss Tony Czak, and Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew Boss Eric Marsh, in addition to the gross incompetence of South Canyon Incident Commander Don Mackey. All of whom were killed in addition to the hotshots they were responsible for killing through their incompetence except for King.
And of course in addition to the same exact primary cause of all the deaths in question, there were many contributing factors, most of which shared a commonality with every other fire. These included fire management, agency management, time of year, month and time of day, topography, weather, communications, and fuel to name just a few.
There were also the usual suspects present on every fire that included the Swiss Cheese Model, the Domino Effect, the Abilene Paradox, deeply flawed training, and most of all…hotshot hubris.
I really like the description of blue collar working class young men being attracted to WLF, I sure as hell know that is what I was and I still am in spite of the fact I managed to hold down a white collar (and BDU collar) job for 18 years
Although at least half of every hotshot crew I was on were either college students or college graduates, most of whom went on to white collar jobs themselves in just about every profession you can name. And many of those who didn’t, went on to make a career out of FIRE within the WLF community…AKA FIRE Industrial/Commercial Complex. 🙂
And many…just ended up getting ground up by The Machine. 🙁
Gary,
Thank you for augmenting and clarifying your post on the 2007 to 2016 WF deaths article.
This is an interesting and thought provoking video hosted by the North Atlantic Fire Science Exchange Published on Mar 5, 2018 titled:
“Are Firefighter Fatalities Normal Accidents?’” presented by Lloyd C. Irland, The Irland Group and Matt Carroll, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd3bRYDiYB0 )
They talk about the comparable thread of similarities in military, maritime, and wildland fire accidents and incidents.
They conclude that the trend has been steady in spite of technology and other “things” to supposedly prevent them.
Wildland fire fatalities – like all fatalities – are inevitable due to human factors, human errors, and human failures. They can never be entirely prevented.
However, they can be reduced. They posit “A call to do something different, not the same thing better.”
The warrior quote at the end is insightful and derives from this book:
Blue On Blue: A History Of Friendly Fire
by Geoffrey Regan from New York: Avon Books. 258 pages, C$15.00 (paperback); Reviewed by Major the Rev. Arthur Gans
( http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo4/no3/book-livre-06-eng.asp )
And an interesting parallel is the YH Fire rogue firing operation that several of us confidently allege that took place in the Sesame Street and Shrine as seen in the July 2013 Yarnell, AZ library video and on YouTube (both mysteriously and quickly vanished), former Yarnell Fire Chief Pete Anderson’s video confidently stating that this corridor was to be utilized “in case there was a burnout like this” (1:52 to 1:54)/
“In case there was a burnout like this.”
He knew there was a burnout and so do many others there that day! FFs, WFs, and citizens alike!
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFObh-fNOl8 ), and numerous photos and videos posted on Joy A. Collura’s website
( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) as strong suggestive evidence indicated by very clearly identified separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes).
So then, when you think about it, it’s now worth considering that the GMHS may very well have been killed from a “friendly fir[ing]” operation that was not communicated to supervisors or adjoning forces.
Both Fire Order 7 and Watch Out 7 were compromised. However, you will notice that “adjoining forces” is not included in Watch Out 7.
Right on…I will check it out, thank you!
And while I am at it, I am going to pontificate while I chew on another favorite bone of mine as I expand on another one of my theories…or opinions.
And that is when the author of the above discredited article repeated the all to common literary trope by describing hotshots by writing, “At the top of the wildland firefighting hierarchy are the US Forest Service’s “hotshot” teams, the profession’s equivalent of military special forces.”
And if anyone has been following my thought process over the past few years (sigh…years!) you will know I object to describing hotshots as the “equivalent of military special forces.”
And this may seem like an unnecessary nuanced trip down into the weeds, but I think it is important because it goes to the very core of a hotshot crew’s mission while fighting wildfires, IMHO.
And that is because that erroneous analogy actually detracts from the very hard and complex work hotshot crews actually do, while at the same time, attributing the work of “nut sack lickers” i.e., smokejumpers, to hotshot crews.
I think smokejumpers are the “Special Forces” of the wild land firefighting world and hotshots are the “Army Rangers.” Now…that being said, no comparison of WLF to military units is ever accurate because as I have stated many times, fires can’t think or shoot back and they have to follow all of the laws of nature all of the time and therefore, wildfires are completely predictable and therefore we should win every time by everyone going home safely barring random, bizarre, freak accidents that are truly anomalies and not the norm.
But…most people including me use military comparisons when describing fighting wild fires all of the time, and those analogies are fair just as long as those who are making them, understand the nuances and can explain those slight differences to those to whom they are communicating. And none of them ever do understand what they are writing or saying…they just repeat the false descriptions they have already heard or read others incorrectly misuse.
And for the first time since hotshot crews were created, hitshots are getting a lot of press. I think it is due to the deaths of 19 hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and all of the news coverage, books and movie that came in the aftermath, which is a horrible way to finally get the recognition hotshots deserve since they have been laboring in the shadow of smokejumpers for decades.
So…here is the bottom line, “The Ranger Regiment is the United States’ premier light infantry fighting force, specializing in raids and assault missions deep inside enemy territory.”
Whereas, Green Berets are referred to as the Army’s Special Forces and are less likely than are Rangers to participate in large scale missions or operations. Also included in this group of warriors are Navy SEALS and Marine Raiders who all fall into the category of “Special Operators”…I think?
Therefore, Special Operators are to the U.S. Military what smokejumpers are to the wild land FIRE Industrial Complex because they typically work in small teams on unconventional firefighting assignments in small teams.
And furthermore…Army Rangers are to the U.S. Military what hotshots are to the wild land FIRE Industrial Complex because they work in much larger groups up to what would be the equivalent of Battalions size strength on conventional large scale firefighting assignments.
In other words, smokejumpers typically fight the small inconsequential fires (unless they get away) whereas hotshots are reserved for the large fires that are callled either “Project” or “ Campaign” fires. Or at least that is what large complex fires were called back in my day.
There…I think I have officially beaten that horse to death, for the record. And now tye next time you either read or hear some author or journalist describe hotshots, they will compare them to Navy SEALS or Special Forces. Marine Raiders are a family new force and they are having their own recognition issues in the U.S. SOCOM.
And FYI…I do consider it my job on this thread to keep repeating, “Eric Marsh killed his crew as a direct result of his criminally negligent acts and decisions on the YHF Disaster.”
“Look, I have one job on this lousy thread. It’s stupid, but I’m going to do it, okay?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YKjo9dldp2g
So…you are saying I may owe both Joy and Sonny big apologies for NOT buying into the “friendly backfire out of the shrine” concept?
“This is a bummer, man. That’s a, that’s a bummer.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=0h0m0s&v=z-m9WgAdflY
Man…I really like that book reviewer I quoted above.
He wrote, “The book succeeds on several levels. It is a highly readable, at times funny, very insightful, Bourdieu-inspired ethnography of country mas- culinity, and as such very useful for courses on masculinity. It is a fine example of how to apply structuration theory and, therefore, a good re- source for classes in social theory. It also offers a penetrating examina- tion of the logic of bureaucratic organization and the way it creates a common sense world in which blame is always individualized and thus diverted from the structural and institutional factors that may lead, in the case of wildland firefighters at least, to unnecessary injury and death.”
Which is the same thing I mean to say when I write, “Life on the Happy Jack Hotshots at the Long Valley Ranger Station was like Animal House meets Lord Of The Flies at a Special Operations Forward Operating Base.”
You know…except he says it way better than I do.
Oh…and The Woodsman as well? He has been a big proponent of the “Friendly Backfire” theory as well.
See…yet another adaptation of the military analogy of “friendly fire.”
And may as well include this one as well since it has been discussed before in various forms.
“Sergeant Davis’s Stern Charge: The Obligation of Officers to Preserve the Humanity of Their Troops”
Shannon E. French (2009)
Journal of Military Ethics, 8:2, 116-126,
DOI: 10.1080/15027570903037926To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/15027570903037926
“ABSTRACT: This article examines what it might mean for officers to be held responsible forsafeguarding not just the lives of their troops, but also the humanity of their troops. How shouldsuch a charge be understood, and can it be justified? Arguably, any experience of combat is anassault on the participants’ humanity. The idea that officers should try to shield their troops fromcombat altogether, however, is untenable, for reasons that are discussed (including the danger ofselective conscientious objection). Nor, it is argued, can officers guarantee or ensure that they willnever lead troops in conflicts thatviolate jus ad bellum criteria. If officers are to be held responsiblefor protecting their troops in any way beyond the physical, it must be against specific, severe threatsto their humanity that occur in the course of waging war. Candidates for threats of this kind areconsidered, leading to the conclusion that the greatest threats arise from jus in belloviolations thatdehumanize thevictim and degrade the perpetrator. The question is then raised whether officers infact can protect their troops from committing suchviolations, and the argument is advanced thatthe command climate officers create in their units plays a significant role in encouraging ordeterring serious transgressions of the warrior’s code.”
.You would owe me no apologies about the back fire at the Shrine–You know many times more about these things than I do but I did see that video and after I saw how the firemen do things it only stands to reason that area would have been back fired. Also the photos posted of two smoke stack separated by some distance and what I had seen where the fire had advanced too as we went over the Weaver’s makes me believe there was a backfire. I do not know if you had been to the Shrine, but if you had it would be nice to see what you might think a less educated wild land fire fighter would do considering the wind direction and need to clear that forage while the wind was away from Yarnell. That Ben Palm did just that on the east side and soon after he got his men stationed–Joy and I watched that one and she even attempted to go right to the fire edge as they were back fireing.
This may not post–seems I try to post and not sure if they are going somewhere since I do not see them after the post
Clarification,
I have learned almost everything I know about SOCOM from watching movies, so…
But, that being said, I think most Special Forces (Green Berets) are tasked to train friendly military units in Third World countries.
So…I think the direct equivalent of Navy SEALS is the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, commonly referred to as Delta Force, Combat Applications Group, “The Unit”, Army Compartmented Element, or within JSOC as Task Force Green, is an elite special mission unit of the United States Army, under operational control of the Joint Special Operations Command from the base next to my former home town, Joint Base Lewis McCord, which is the next door neighbor to Olympia, Washington.
So…I think the correct analogy would be to compare the smokejumpers to SEALS, Delta Force or Marine Raiders, although I certainly DO NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THOSE MILITARY UNITS ARE NUT SACK LICKERS LIKE THE SMOKEJUMPERS ARE…it’s…nuanced.
In any case, hotshots are the equivalent of “light infantry”, who are usually reserved for and utilized in, large scale, complex, interagency operations and campaign engagements, or Project Fires…IMHO.
Sonny,
I have a clarification question on what you posted here: “That Ben Palm did just that on the east side and soon after he got his men stationed–Joy and I watched that one and she even attempted to go right to the fire edge as they were back fireing.”
Are you referring to the June 30, 2013, YH Fire or the Tenderfoot Fire in June 2016?
Sonny,
Hopefully, you’ll be able to find this since it’s likely gonna post far away from your original post.
I have a clarification question on what you posted here: “That Ben Palm did just that on the east side and soon after he got his men stationed–Joy and I watched that one and she even attempted to go right to the fire edge as they were back fireing.”
Are you referring to the June 30, 2013, YH Fire or the Tenderfoot Fire in June 2016?
No…I would owe everyone an apology who has put that theory forward because I didn’t think it was possible.
But…I think I was wrong, After almost 6 years I now think anything was possible.
There is ONE thing I do know for sure though. The Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster left a lot of damaged people in its aftermath.
Here’s a research paper from the author that Gary cites above titled: Making Firefighters Deployable” by Matthew Desmond in 2010 in Qualitative Sociology (2011) 34: 59–77 DOI 10.1007/s11133-010-9176-7
( https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mdesmond/files/pdf_0_0_1.pdf )
( https://scholar.harvard.edu/mdesmond/publications/making-firefighters-deployable )
“Abstract: Although sociologists have devoted a considerable amount of research to exploring high-risk organizations, they have not yet developed an adequate explanation as to why individuals working within such organizations place themselves in harm’s way and how organizations ensure they remain there. This article addresses this gap by analyzing how the United States Forest Service motivates wildland firefighters to participate in lifethreatening activity. Drawing on ethnographic research and content analyses of official documents, it describes the process by which firefighters come to develop a specific disposition towards risk taking, a disposition through which they view firefighting as an activity void of danger, and how this disposition maintains its shape, and even grows stronger, after confronting its biggest challenge: the death of a firefighter.”
“Keywords: Firefighting. High-risk organizations. Risk. Human error. Death”
“Since 1910, the year the Great Fires of Idaho and Montana killed 72, over nine hundred wildland firefighters have died fighting fire; most of them burned to death. [FN 1] From 12 to 22 wildland firefighters die every year. [FN 2] After a firefighter’s death, one question seems to
resonate above all others: What went wrong? Sociologists (e.g., Driessen 2002; Vaughan 1997), psychologists (e.g., Weick 1993, 1996), and journalists (Maclean 1992, 1999) have pursued this question, attempting to understand why firecrews break down. This article, by contrast, pursues a more fundamental set of questions: How are individuals working in hazardous occupations socialized by their host organizations to perceive safety, danger, and death? In this specific case, how are firefighters socialized to risk by the Forest Service, and what can that teach us about how high-risk organizations motivate workers to undertake life-threatening tasks? [FN 3]
_____________________________________________________________
“’So why do you think we have the Ten and Eighteen?” “For reason to fall back on,” J.J. observed. “Say somebody got burned, well, there’s an excuse. ‘Oh, it was broke,’ you know. ‘That’s why they burned up, ‘cause they broke the Ten and Eighteen.’ It’s an excuse to fall back on. You’ll never hear them say, you know, so and so burned up, you know, because of the truth. They’re not gonna say, ‘Well this person burned because we fucked up.’ They are gonna say, ‘Ah, they burned because there are all these rules, and they didn’t abide by the rules, therefore he burned.’ They’re not gonna admit they messed up, you know. No, they are gonna find an excuse. That way, they can get their ass out of trouble.’” [Footnote 9]
[Footnote 9] “Supervisors never criticized the Ten and Eighteen in this manner. In fact, the elites whom I observed and interviewed seemed to believe in the importance of these rules just as much as (perhaps more than) seasonal firefighters.”
______________________________________________________________
“Discussion
Firefighters prize competence and control above all other attributes and (contrary to most accounts) view aggression and courage as negative qualities. The distinctive mark of a good firefighter is his ability to know—not to test—his limits. Far from understanding risk as an avenue to a euphoric “adrenaline rush” or a route to acquiring masculine character, firefighters are socialized to view risk as something that can be tamed, safety as something for which they are personally responsible, and death as completely avoidable through competence. Although there is a long tradition of theorizing commonsense (Bourdieu 2000 [1997]; Geertz 1983), there are relatively few actual empirical accounts of the cultivation of collections of commonplaces deeply recognized, albeit rarely specified, that allow organizations to run smoothly and secure worker compliance. I have attempted to offer one here, demonstrating that the Forest Service acclimates firefighters to the perils of their profession by cultivating within them a belief that their job is no more dangerous than the next. When this belief meets its ultimate challenge—the death of a firefighter—the Forest Service reacts by minimizing hazards and exaggerating deviance, thereby allowing firefighters to distance themselves from the dead and the objective dangers of their job.” [Footnote 10]
The author is M. Desmond – Society of Fellows, Harvard University, 78 Mount Auburn Street, Cambridge, MA 02138,
Matthew Desmond is later sourced in the second link above as a John L. Loeb Associate Professor of the Social Sciences; 33 Kirkland Street, Cambridge, MA 02138.
Definitely a good article worth delving into and reading with good sources for future research.
it’s gonna be interesting where this post shakes out
I was looking for information on Fred Schoeffler’s lawsuit against the Forest Services for the (air-to-ground voice recordings and transcripts).
Is there any news on this? Is the lawsuit still in motion or did the “Big Green Pickle” shoot it down?
**
** IN ADDITION TO THE 30 FIREFIGHTERS KILLED IN CHINA, SEVEN
** OTHERS HAD TO “JUMP OFF A CLIFF” TO SURVIVE.
Still not a lot of details emerging from China regarding the recent horrific loss of 30 wildland firefighters all-at-once in Sichuan province, but we do know a LITTLE more.
1. The firefighters were not originally ‘airlifted’ up to the fire. They hiked in.
2. Apparently, the 30 firefighters died not while they were directly engaging the fire… but while they were simply ‘moving’ from one place to another ( just like Yarnell ).
3. In addition to the 30 wildland firefighters that were just killed all-at-once… it turns out that SEVEN other WFs had to “jump off a cliff” in order to survive the same burnover.
The following article about the additional SEVEN firefighters also has a good photo at the top of what the fire looked like from the nearest village, the morning they all ‘hiked up there’.
ECNS Wire
Article Title: Firefighters jump off cliff while battling blaze in Sichuan
Published: 2019-04-02 11:46:55 – By Gu Liping
http://www.ecns.cn/cns-wire/2019-04-02/detail-ifzfwnmy4091148.shtml
From that article…
—————————————————————————————————–
(ECNS) – Seven firefighters were forced to jump off a cliff as fire burst from a burning forest in the Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture, Sichuan Province.
Sources from the Ministry of Emergency Management said 27 firefighters and three locals have been confirmed dead after battling the forest fire, which broke out Saturday at a remote spot in the mountains at an altitude of more than 3,800 meters.
A firefighter told the Beijing News that he was with a crew of seven members when a sudden change in wind direction caused the outburst.
“I couldn’t find words to describe the fierce blaze.”
Firefighters had to jump off a cliff to the other side of a mountain and several people were injured during the escape, he said.
A team sent by the ministry has arrived to coordinate rescue efforts.
—————————————————————————————————
**
** MEMORIAM
Hang on to your hat. The LIST below is heartbreaking.
Here are all the NAMES of the 30 wildland firefighters who just died, listed in AGE order from the youngest to the oldest.
Average age: 23 years old.
5 were younger than 20 years old.
Youngest: 18 years old.
May they ALL Rest In Peace ( and hopefully something has been LEARNED )….
———————————————————————————————–
Wang Fojun
Firefighter.
Born in July, 2000 – Age: 18 years, 8 months.
From Gannan prefecture, Minnan.
Xu Penglong
Firefighter.
Born in March, 2000 – Age: 19 years.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Zhao Yongyi
Firefighter.
Born in December, 1999 – Age: 19 years, 3 months.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Zhang Shuai
Firefighter.
Born in June, 1999 – Age: 19 years, 9 months.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Guo Qi
Firefighter.
Born in June, 1999 – Age: 19 years, 9 months.
From Gannan prefecture, Minnan.
Kang Rongzhen
Firefighter.
Born in March, 1999 – Age: 20 years.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Meng Zhaoxing
Firefighter.
Born in March, 1999 – Age: 20 years old.
From Jinchang in Gansu province.
Zhang Chengpeng
Firefighter.
Born in February, 1999 – Age: 20 years, 1 month.
From Binzhou in Shandong province.
Chen Yibo
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in December, 1998 – Age: 20 years, 3 months.
From Qujing in Yunnan province.
Xìng Geng
Firefighter.
Born in October, 1998 – Age: 20 years, 5 months.
From Qujing in Yunnan province.
Li Linghong
Firefighter.
Born in November, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 4 months.
From Chengdu in Sichuan province.
Zhao Yaodong
Firefighter.
Born in October, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 5 months.
From Dingxi in Gansu province.
Zhou Peng
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in July, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 8 months.
From Yichun in Jiangxi province.
Yang Ruilun
Firefighter.
Born in July, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 8 months.
From Southeast Guizhou province.
Ding Zhenjun
Firefighter.
Born in April, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 11 months.
From Luzhou in Jiangxi province.
Cha Weiguang
Firefighter.
Born in February, 1997 – Age: 22 years, 1 month.
From Dali in Yunnan province.
Cheng Fangwei
Squad Leader.
Born in January, 1997 – Age: 22 years, 2 months.
From Nanchuan district, Chongquing.
Gu Jianhui
Firefighter.
Born in January, 1997 – Age: 22 years, 2 months.
From Ganzhou in Jiangxi province.
Liu Daixu
Platoon Leader.
Born in October, 1996 – Age: 22 years, 5 months.
From Chengdu in Sichuan province.
Dai Jinkai
Firefighter.
Born in September, 1995 – Age: 23 years, 6 months.
From Chengdu in Sichuan province.
Wang Yaofeng
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in September, 1993 – Age: 25 years, 6 months.
From Xiaochang in Hubei province.
Gao Jiyu ( Jiwei )
Squad Leader.
Born in August, 1993 – Age: 25 years, 7 months.
From Hanzhong in Shaanxi province.
Tang Boying (Li)
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in July, 1993 – Age: 25 years, 8 months.
From Younchuan district, Chongquing.
Zhang Hao
Squad Leader.
Born in June, 1990 – Age: 28 years, 9 months.
From Xichang in Sichuan province.
Kong Xianglei
Firefighter.
Born in February, 1990 – Age: 29 years, 1 month.
From Honghe in Yunnan province.
Jiang Feifei
Squad Leader.
Born in January, 1990 – Age: 29 years, 2 months.
From Nanchong in Sichuan province.
Zhao Wankun
Instructor.
Born in December, 1980 – Age: 38 years, 3 months.
From Suining in Sichuan province
Local firefighting personnel…
Zouping ( Chuanlin V )
Staff.
Born in June, 1976 – Age:42 years, 9 months.
From Dazhu in Sichuan province.
Yang Dawa
Director of Forestry and Grassland Bureau of Muli County.
Born in August, 1972 – Age: 46 years, 7 months.
From Muli in Sichuan province.
Tuojin
Volunteer
Born in July, 1970 – Age: 48 years, 8 months.
From Muli in Sichuan province.
———————————————————————————————–
Horrors again–a dreaded reminder of the Yarnell deaths, young souls with their lives snuffed out like so many of their fellow wild land fire fighters.
I had been working on my screened porch– I am done with the corners so I can tomorrow do more–Now my strength wanned so am going to shower and mess with this computer this evening. . Did you notice the hundreds of towns in California that are listed and in deadly fire zones–it is a given that many of those homes will burn and more people will die–people are in harms way out there in too many places and truth is the homes will have to go–they best live in trailers. That way they can move their shit ever now and again when the fire danger is high or else let it burn an not worry too much.
The fire thing is a sham for the most part–you have to let the fires burn until they burn out especially when you have manzanita and other overgrowth that can not be stopped when in a wild fire burn.. It is absolute stupidity to risk men under orders where they are young and too naive to balk and when some of their bosses are apt to make stupid moves. Marsh and Steed knew better but went ahead and killed their men and themselves anyway. But that is men trying to make a name for themselves or perhaps on Marsh’s account he was intending to kill the men–all evidence of what he did against all good judgement and protestation by Steed, and that by doing what was known to be a killer act, something he would have known if he was a true hot shot fire fighter points to him as a mass murderer. Of course that is only a possibility and my opinion, but either way he should have went down in the books at minimum charged with negligent homicide of 18 men–Steed with 17 men and perhaps Marsh with suicide and homicide due to wreckless acts that killed his crew..
I know it is hard for some to swallow but the facts are out there proving that all safety rules were knowingly broken–that hundreds of wild land fire witnesses that have visited the area say that it indeed was not the proper proceedure and against good and reasonable action and should have been prevented.
These fires are now in the extreme -and common sense says that it is prudent to let nature take its course because it will anyway. Needless risking of men is a sham and show for the public eye and too much pleasing the public and trying to be the limelight hero is leading to unecessary killing of the young and naive wild land fire fighter.
Followup…
Something else that is now also known about the deadly Sichuan fire…
According to Shenzhen Daily, authorities have now said the CAUSE of the deadly fire was ( just like Yarnell ) a lightning strike.
Same article also reports that the original fire has now RESTARTED in the same area.
Shenzen Daily
Article Title: Forest fire in Sichuan Province starts again
Published: 2019-04-08 08:53
http://www.szdaily.com/content/2019-04/08/content_21605979.htm
From that article..
———————————————————————————–
A FOREST fire that killed 27 firefighters and three locals in Southwest China’s Sichuan Province a week ago started to burn again Saturday afternoon, local authorities said yesterday.
The 30 victims have been approved for recognition as martyrs by the Ministry of Emergency Management and the Sichuan Provincial Government.
Around 5 p.m. Saturday, the fire was found to have started in the northeastern part of the forest, according to the sources with Muli County, Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture.
So far, 350 firefighters are battling the fire and an other 440 locals from neighboring towns have rushed to the site.
The area burnt by the fire is estimated to be 5 to 10 hectares, and is spreading due to windy weather.
The forest fire first broke out at around 6 p.m. March 30 at a remote spot in the mountains in Muli County at an altitude of over 3,700 meters. Local authorities dispatched more than 600 people to put out the blaze. After engulfing about 15 hectares of forest, the blaze was initially extinguished Tuesday.
A lightning strikehas been confirmed as the cause of the fire, local authorities said earlier.
The resurgence of the fire was caused by strong wind in the area, sources said.
———————————————————————————–
WTKTT,
Thanks for posting about this Chinese wildland fire that would likely have otherwise been missed.
Below are some excerpts from an article about their training, experience, and safety attitudes while “human factors” are mentioned as one of the causal factors by one official.
Veteran firefighter Liu Hutang, the former head of Forest Fire Prevention Command in Hainan province, south China, wrote in an essay on Tuesday which went viral on Weibo – China’s microblogging platform – that the government “prioritised fighting fires over the safety of [firefighting] personnel”.
“I have always called for the safety of personnel to be put first when fighting a forest fire disaster,” Liu wrote in the essay, which has now been removed from Weibo by censors. “A tree can regrow after it is burned down, but a person cannot be resurrected after they die.”
“Even though the Sichuan fire was caused by nature, human factors heavily influenced the outcome of the tragedy,” Liu told the South China Morning Post.
“I believe that it is the Chinese system which caused this [loss of life]. In democratic and law-abiding foreign countries, human rights are respected and they put human lives first. But our country puts economic profits in first place and human lives at the bottom.”
Another mainland fire services professional criticised the “culture of bravery” within the industry in an anonymous interview with WeChat media platform The Intellectual on Wednesday, saying it led people to overlook specialist safety training that could help save more lives.
“The biggest problem right now is that the investment is big and the equipment is good, but the training cannot catch up,” the firefighter said, adding that improved equipment may make some firefighters less aware of the risks of entering a fire zone.
The head of the Forestry Bureau in Muli county, where the blaze happened, Yang Renkui, told news site Kankan on Tuesday that all the “professional” firefighters who had been sent there had received “specialist training”. The county’s two firefighting units were set up in 2001.
However, Yang had complained to the more senior forestry bureau in Liangshan prefecture only last year that it was impossible to attract new talent to replace ageing firefighters, and that the equipment and firefighting techniques they used were outdated, Kankan reported.
China has about 130,000 firefighters according to the Ministry of Public Security, but the vast majority are contract workers who often leave the profession due to the high risks, gruelling working conditions and low pay.
The rest were military police officers who served a two or three-year stint with the fire service, Liu said, whereas full-time professional firefighters were employed in foreign countries. Beijing’s municipal government only started hiring full-time government firefighters in 2017, but the roughly 600 employed were just a drop in the ocean in a city with a population of more than 20 million.
Many of the firefighters who died on Sunday came from the military police, with several having only joined two years ago. But one of the commanders of the firefighting unit who died had been a firefighter for 19 years.
“The [firefighters from the armed police] have only just finished training and have not acquired enough experience to do this highly specialised job well before they go somewhere else,” Liu said. “So these firefighters’ experience will never be enough.
( https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3004865/deadly-forest-blaze-china-sparks-debate-over-numbers-and )
Thanks for that article.
When it comes to wildland firefighting, looks like training issues, misplaced priorities, trying to save a buck, “acceptable losses” and trying to keep the whole thing running by marketing the whole “culture of bravery” thing are obviously GLOBAL issues and not just confined to the U.S. of A.
As it turns out… the DEATH TOLL for that Sichuan incident now stands at 31.
Apparently, there was another ( fourth ) ‘local volunteer’ who was killed, and didn’t make it into the official memorial service(s).
Can’t find his name anywhere… and no word yet on whether this additional firefighter was one of the one of the seven who had to jump off the cliff, or whether he was with the main group of 30 that got caught in the burnover.
The Washington Post
Article Title: China says lightning caused forest fire that killed 31
Published: April 5, 2019 ( Via the Associated Press, China division )
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-says-lightning-caused-forest-fire-that-killed-31/2019/04/05/5119cd68-5808-11e9-aa83-504f086bf5d6_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7a25d749454f
From that article…
————————————————————————–
BEIJING — Lighting sparked a forest fire in mountainous western China last month that killed 27 firefighters and FOUR local helpers in one of the country’s deadliest days for first responders, investigators said.
Acting on accounts of eyewitnesses in Sichuan province’s Muli county, investigators located an 18-meter (59-foot) pine tree split by lightning that they identified as the fire’s origin point. They said that after igniting the tree, the fire spread to the thick layer of decomposed plant material on the ground known as humus lying in a remote area at an altitude of around 3,800 meters (12,500 feet.)
————————————————————————–
I did a little Education on the Kern River Ranger District. Use to be The Cannel Meadow RD.
Consolidated with the Hot Springs RD. So it is Huge. Has two Hot Shot Crews (IR). The Fulton HS established in 1964. The Breckenridge HS established 20+ years ago. That means there are several Heavy Eng. and several Prevention Patrols. From what I read Abby was the Batt. Chief or the old in my head Asst. Dist. FMO in charge of the Fire Prevention on the Dist. Another ADFMO would be in charge of the Eng. crews Maybe 6 Eng. And the DFMO would possibly be in charge of the IRHS and the Two Asst.
So a lot of overhead on this Dist. Which may be part of the problem. The Batt. Chiefs would be GS-9s along with the Superintendents.
The Hume Lake Dist. Has the other crew The Horseshoe Meadows HS.
The Old Tule River Ranger Dist. took over the Other Half of the old Hot Springs Dist.
Like I said a lot of changes since I worked there. We got the job done with one hell of a lot less people and grade levels. OLD SCHOOL
Thanks for the info!
I still wish BC Abby Bolt had ‘elaborated’ ( in her resignation letter ) on what she said were obvious “human factors” issues in that district that she was also strongly suggesting could easily lead to “fatalities”… and that no one was willing to do anything about it.
That could mean a lot of things.
Was she ( possibly ) suggesting that one ( or more? ) of those “crews” based in that district are just ( currently ) an “accident looking for a place to happen”?
Could be hard to say what the hiring and qualifications are any more. I know they have gone to a Collage degree for GS9s and above. Fire Qualifications soso.
Like I said it aint what it use to be. If you are a graduate Forester you can apply for Supervisory Fire jobs.
Below are some of the specific references from BC Abby Bolt’s resignation letter that describe that USFS Ranger District as a “nightmare”, and a “dangerous environment”, filled with “hazardous behavior” and “hazardous human factors” that can lead to DEADLY outcomes ( fatalities )… and that she was ( and is still ) in FEAR for the PHYSICAL SAFETY of employees there.
This all seems to be a totally separate issue from whatever “harassment” she has been experiencing on that same “nightmare” USFS district.
ALL of these quotes from her resignation letter seem to be raising another total RED FLAG and suggesting that people are very likely to get KILLED on that Ranger District if someone doesn’t “do something” about the situation there.
But she didn’t elaborate. I wish she would… before people DO get killed.
———————————————————————————-
“Had I not held a deep motivation to hang on and fight, I would have silently promoted up and out of this disastrous work environment long ago at the suggestion of many leaders who reached out to recruit me in order to get away from the continuous HAZARDOUS behavior within this Forest.”
“But is that what you want? Quality individuals to leave DANGEROUS work environments because they know that option is safer than speaking up? ”
“Many HAZARDOUS supervisors are being protected and retained by the mantra, “we must protect the agency” instead of corrected or removed after their behaviors are reported.”
“Many things I have experienced the last few years have been similar to the ‘stuff’ FATALITY investigations are made of.”
“I have tried repeatedly to share my concerns and relate them to HAZARDOUS human factors and actions that play a part in the Swiss Cheese Model which can lead to DEADLY outcomes.”
“I stood up for my employees and their SAFETY.”
“There WERE, and more than likely still ARE, blatant SAFETY issues not being addressed and dismissed altogether.”
“I fear for the PHYSICAL and emotional SAFETY of those working on the Kern River Ranger District.”
This District is an absolute mess, a NIGHTMARE for those who serve and have served under the current regime. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why people have left or are leaving.”
————————————————————————————
Hey Fred! You will be able to find the next WLF discrimination complaint somewhere in this book! There are HUGE problems with management and there is systemic gender discrimination in tye WLF community, but PBS was way off target🎯 you know…IMHO.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6060450-wild-heat
Oh…and one more thing. We need those Terminal Assholes to stop covering up fire disasters and do honest and professional SAIR’s by honest and professional SAIT’s, but conflating the issues isn’t the answer. IMHO.
OMGosh!!! This is a MUST read!
Wild Heat
(Hot Shots: Men of Fire #1)
by Bella Andre (Goodreads Author)
3.99 · Rating details · 5,481 ratings · 278 reviews
HE’S A HOTSHOT FIREFIGHTER ADDICTED TO RISK. SHE’S THE SULTRY BEAUTY HE NEVER SAW COMING.
Maya Jackson doesn’t sleep with strangers. Until the night grief sent her to the nearest bar and into the arms of the most explosive lover she’s ever had. Six months later, the dedicated arson investigator is coming face to face with him again. Gorgeous, grinning Logan Cain. Her biggest mistake. Now her number-one suspect in a string of deadly wildfires.
Risking his life on a daily basis is what gets Logan up in the morning. As leader of the elite Tahoe Pines Hotshot Crew, he won’t back down from a blaze-or from beautiful, lethal Maya Jackson. She may have seduced him with her tears and her passion, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before Logan lets down his guard again. Until Maya’s life is threatened. With his natural-born hero instincts kicking in, Logan vows to protect the woman sworn to bring him down. And as desire reignites, nothing-not the killer fire or the killer hot on their trail-can douse the flames…. (less)
OMGosh…I found MORE! This book just keeps getting better and better. I have already ordered my copy.
Auntee rates it…⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Who doesn’t love a brave, hunky firefighter? This new series by Bella Andre is all about firefighters, but not the kind we are familiar with who fight structure fires, but the kind who fight wildfires. They’re called wildland firefighters, or Hotshots, and they battle blazes like forest fires continuously off and on for about nine months out of the year, mainly out West. This series sounded promising to me, so I had high expectations, and for the most part, it delivered. Sure, there were some predictable moments (why do the heroines always sleep with the heroes and then think “Whoops, that was a mistake. I don’t want to fall for this guy and risk losing another person I love to a dangerous job–my heart can’t take it!”), and a few moments where I rolled my eyes and said “What?”, but I decided to go with it and have fun. And I did. Of course it helped that the H/H were so hot together that they nearly spontaneously combusted (pun intended)!
Maya Jackson’s an arson investigator for Cal Fire, but she’s in Lake Tahoe, Nevada on personal business. She’s come to pick up the belongings of her younger brother Tony, a firefighter who was killed in an apartment fire and died a hero a few days earlier. Overcome with grief at losing yet another member of her family (her beloved father, a former firefighter, had recently died), Maya feels like she needs some liquid courage to face the sad task ahead of her. So she heads off down the street from her brother’s cottage, looking for a bar or restaurant. Tahoe Pines Bar & Grill–that will do. Darn, it’s closed–the sign says come back at 5 pm. After pounding on the door, a sinfully sexy guy with shoulders out to here takes pity on her and lets her in. After a couple of whiskeys and a few answered questions, Maya is overcome with something (grief, lust?) grabs the guy and plants one on him. Things progress to the point of “Oh God”, what have I done?” and the next thing you know, Maya’s out the door, before Mr. Sexy can get her name or number.
Fast forward six months, and Maya’s back in Tahoe. Still looking for answers into the fire that killed her brother, Maya requests for a chance to work on the Desolation Wilderness wildfire, as it will keep her in the Lake Tahoe area. This fire’s origins look suspicious and may be arson, and all signs are pointing to fireman Logan Cain as the prime suspect. Even though Logan has had an outstanding career as a Hotshot, heroically saving many lives and expensive real estate in his 15 year career, that all means nothing when you’re reported to be in the wrong place at the right time, and an anonymous tipster fingers you as an arsonist. So Maya comes to check this guy out, and watches as he and another firefighter narrowly outrun a rampaging fire to rescue one of their crew members. When Maya gets close enough to interview him about the Desolation Wilderness wildfire, she realizes he’s the same guy she had her way with at the Tahoe Pines Bar & Grill! Can you say conflict of interest?
Well, of course Logan remembers Maya (he thought she was the sexiest woman he’d ever been with), and he’s not through with her. He knows there’s something there, and the feeling is mutual. But Maya’s got a job to do, finds out some rather incriminating stuff in Logan’s past, and since Logan is guilty until proven innocent, he’s suspended from his job. Logan professes his innocence, and Maya wants to believe him, and after talking to his co-workers and hearing nothing but good things about the man he’s become, she starts thinking of other possibilities. Does somebody have it in for Logan? Is someone trying to frame him?
After a couple of attempts on her and Logan’s life, it’s clear that Logan is not the arsonist. Maya and Logan work together to figure out who could be doing this. Working together in close contact heats up the passion between them, and soon Maya and Logan heat up the bedroom. Very erotic, but very confusing for Maya. Does she want to risk her heart on a man who could go to work one day and never return to her? Is she strong enough for that? Can she afford to say those three little words that Logan wants to hear?
This was a sexy read. Maya was a pretty brave, strong woman, and a smart cookie. Thankfully she didn’t keep pursuing Logan as a suspect because even I could see that he was being framed. The author throws out a handful of possible suspects and of course at first I guessed wrong! I’m not sure I was totally sold on the reasons the real arsonist acted the way they did (this is when I said “What?”), and at times I was thinking “this is a little preposterous” during the final showdown between Maya and this wacko, but what the heck, I went with it. And if it brought Maya and Logan together, so much the better.
Of course the best part of the story was the relationship between Maya and Logan, and whenever they were together the pages came alive. Although I wanted to check Maya’s head for rocks a few times when she considered walking away from Logan–this guy was the complete package, and only a fool would give him up!
So to sum up, this was a good beginning to the series (which shows a lot of promise because there’s plenty of hot firefighters who were introduced). A little suspense, a hot romance, and I learned something about wildland firefighters (very brave guys). I’m looking forward to the next installment of this series, titled Hot as Sin A Novel, about Logan’s buddy Sam MacKenzie. 4 stars. (less)
OMGosh…MORE?!!?
Shawna rates it…4 ⭐️ ⭐️⭐️⭐️
I was eagerly anticipating the first book, “Wild Heat”, in the new ‘Hot Shots: Men of Fire’ series about wildland firefighters because a) who doesn’t love a heroic hot-as-sin firefighter?, b) it’s classified as romantic suspense, and c) author Bella Andre writes some fairly steamy sex scenes. The fact that the series focuses on wildland firefighters who battle dangerous forest fires for 6-9 months out of the year is a unique take on the firefighter theme and the main reason why I still liked this book, even though there are lots of plot holes and a lack of realistic romantic development between the H/H. The wildland firefighters, referred to as hotshots, in this series are based in Lake Tahoe and battle the tough wildfires that blaze through the Sierra Nevada Mountains in California.
Arson investigator Maya Jackson comes from a family of firefighters: her father was a wildland firefighter and her brother was a Lake Tahoe firefighter. After enduring the pain of losing them both to the dangerous profession, she’s determined to never lose her heart to a firefighter…cue hunky, brave wildland firefighter, hotshot Logan Caine, who’s resolved to make Maya all his. Maya and Logan first met at a bar and shared a moment of wild, reckless passion where no names were exchanged. Fast forward to six months later and Maya’s in Lake Tahoe to investigate suspicious wildland fire activity, and guess who her primary arson suspect is? Yep, hotshot Logan, and to complicate matters further, neither of them have been able to forget the other and they just can’t seem to deny the passion that burns so hot between them. Maya figures out pretty early on that Logan’s innocent and they team up together to find the real ‘bad guy’, and of course to heat the sheets!
There are several potential arson suspects thrown in to keep the reader guessing, but when the arsonist/villain is finally revealed, I actually flipped the pages a couple of times to be sure I was reading it accurately and rolled my eyes with a “you’ve got to be kidding me right?”! I’m pretty good at suspending belief for the sake of good escapism, but the plot in this one really pushes the limits. The twists-and-turns come out of left field and too many holes are left wide open out in that field; but for the most part, I just tried to let go and enjoy the ride (and yummy Logan Caine).
Of course, there’s the whole ‘will she be able to take the risk on love before it’s too late thing’, but I just didn’t feel a true connection between Maya and Logan. Their relationship progression isn’t very realistic, but at least it’s plenty steamy!
“Wild Heat” has a sexy-as-sin firefighter hero, scorching romance, and is an overall pretty good start to the new ‘Hot Shots’ series, even with its somewhat weak plot. Oh, and let’s not overlook the sizzling stud on the book cover…YOWZA! I’ll definitely still read book 2, “Hot as Sin”, when it comes out later this year. 4 stars. (less)
WOW 😯 😮 😲!!!
Kat rated it…5 ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
In this steamy firefighter romance, arson investigator Maya goes to Lake Tahoe to investigate the fire that killed her brother and has a brief fling with a guy she meets in a bar. Months later, she realizes her fling is Logan, a wilderness firefighter, and the prime suspect in her arson investigation. Logan, being a dedicated firefighter, is royally pissed to be a suspect at all, and especially frustrated when she benches him just when there are fires all over the place to be put out. This had great romance, great pacing, and a good mystery that kept me guessing. Will definitely be reading more by this author. Recommended for romance fans!
OMGosh…LIKEWISE !!!
Mojca rated it…5 ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Maya Jackson’s brother is dead. One day he was there, the next he died in a fire. She comes to Lake Tahoe to clear out his house, but the grief is too strong and she needs a few drinks to help her get through the ordeal. The bar is closed, but the Good Samaritan inside lets her in, pours her a drink, and lets her have her way with his mouth, tongue, fingers, and body…But before things escalate, she bursts into tears and runs off.
Six months later Maya is back in Lake Tahoe investigating the possible arson that started the wildfire blazing near town. Her prime suspect, thanks to two witness reports and an anonymous tip, is the local hotshot (wildfire firefighter) Logan Cain. And she’s just in time to see him and his two buddies escape a blowout. But nothing can prepare her for the shock when he removes his helmet. The hunky firefighter is none other than the hunky stranger she almost did the vertical mambo with in the bar six months ago. The same man she was unable to forget.
The same goes for him. The brief interlude in the bar has ruined Logan for any other woman, so when the object of his fantasies yet again stands before him, he’s more than glad to see her. A little less when she tells him her true purpose in Lake Tahoe, puts him on suspension, and starts digging in his not-so-stellar past.
He’s a firefighter to the core, his men are out there risking their lives, he needs to help put the wildfire out, and all that stands in his way is this sexy woman intent on proving him guilty.
Lucky for him, a few strange incidents prove the exact opposite. And that Maya’s life is also in peril. Now the two must race against time and against the weather to find the true arsonist, live to tell the tale, and put the fire out while they’re at it.
One word — FANTASTIC!
This was a complete impulse buy, because I loved the firefighter theme and the cover, but boy am I glad I did it. I can’t think of a single thing that bothered me much in this novel, which is a rarity indeed.
The premise was great, (almost) perfectly executed, the story flowed flawlessly, the pacing was great, the characters even greater, but what struck me the most was the author’s uncanny ability to tap into my mind and evoke such vivid images with her words.
The contrast between the sunny, relaxing Lake Tahoe brimming with tourists and the raging force of nature the wildfire presented. The chilling effects of literally seeing that wall of fire in my mind’s eye. The similarities between the fire blazing in the forest and between Maya and Cain. The selfless actions of hotshots risking their lives to save others.
Though the story, the characters, the plot, the romance, the passion, the suspense/thriller were great and awesomely-presented, they still seemed to take second place to the true protagonist of this story—the raging inferno of the wildfire. Absolutely amazing.
Yet the hero and heroine held their own against that central character. They both had emotional baggage, yet it didn’t hamper them down (much). And Maya, clearly the reluctant party in this duo, despite her fears and reservation didn’t strike me as annoying. I actually understood where she came from, and shared her heartbreak a little.
While Logan was simply perfect. A true hero, a hotshot with integrity, pride, and passion, and hunky eye-candy to boot. What more could you want in a romance hero?
I didn’t even mind the “quickness” of their romance. It somehow worked with the story, twining seamlessly with everything going on around the two. With the threat of the fire and the deadly peril surrounding them they sort of didn’t have a choice but fall for each other, to prove they’re still alive (as they both thought in one scene).
There are a few reviewers here that are a bit iffy on the subject of the villain. I never got my WTF?! moment when the identity of the baddie was revealed. The two scenes with the villain stalking Logan’s cabin were clues enough for me to pinpoint who might be one of the culprits, I just didn’t think it could be one and the same. So it was still a surprise, though not in the what-the-hell-just-happened kind of way.
And kudos for the villain’s twistiness and props.
This was one hell of a book, a great starter to the series, and a definite keeper. Only 4 days left until the second hotshot story is released. Don’t you love the “preorder” button? *grin* (less)
I’m not going to include the next two because frankly…they get a little SNARKY with their review and only give, “Wild Heat” three ⭐️⭐️⭐️, BITCHES (non gender specific).
But GREAT NEWS! Then there are some more ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ and ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ and then some ⭐️⭐️, one BITCH (non gender specific) gave it ZERO Stars and then on and on and on, so forth and so on, etc.
I’m kind of embarrassed to admit this…but there was a gentle stirring in my loins while I read some of these reviews. I can hardly wait until my copy gets here! I paid for expedited delivery… 🚚 📦, so…
In other words, I think a bunch of women had a bunch of wet dreams some gullible PBS television producer filmed and got camera loving Trey Gowdy who is starved for attention to pontificate about.
We…if you will excuse my use of the Royal We, have enough fuckin’ problems as an industry who should still be in shock and grief over the loss of our hotshot crew have some real problems to solve without bullshit distractions.
So I think everyone should FOCUS!
Although I did not try to to individually decide every case that was presented on the PBS special program.
I am just stating my overall impression of the program.because like I have written, based on my more than 40 years of experience now with all of the wild land firefighting agencies, nothing ever rose to the level of anything I saw on that PBS program.
Yes…systemic discrimination is present in the wild land firefighting industry against women and a lot of other minorities that aren’t White, Hispanic or Native American straight men,
But…I never experienced nor even heard about any of the examples I saw highlighted on the program. And there wasn’t anyone who was more plugged into the system than I was and still am to a great extent.
For example…I worked in an area of the country for 18 years, which was Northern New Mexico, that is quite well known for its discrimination against women, and I never even heard of a case where anyone slapped a woman on her ass and said anything about it or cut off a women’s clothing much less raped a woman on a fire or the job in general.
And if that did happen to any woman, it is or was an anomaly and a criminal matter for the authorities to investigate. And I know the authorities take those issues very seriously because I was an authority for so long and through much more trying times than today.
I think that is BULLSHIT and distracts from the very real and much more insidious problems that are faced by women in today’s workforce because they are so subtle without the deliberately provocative exaggerations while on camera.
And this is getting down even further into the weeds, but…
Although the U.S. Forest Service does not have the federal authority to investigate or recommend prosecutions through the U. S. Attorneys Office for rapes or other sexual assaults on their employees per se, they do have the authority to investigate allegations of any assault on every employee that happens because of their job.
And I know for a fact just his serious the USFS and it’s partner agencies, both the BLM and the NPS, in addition to the U.S. Attorneys Office takes allegations of every assault on their employees.
And in the case where another employee assaults a fellow employee, it would be investigated as both a criminal matter and a personnel matter as part of an internal investigation, in addition to working closely with the local agency to see who has the best charges or case that can be brought against the perpetrator.
And FYI. even if you do want your own rape kit for whatever reason you do, you won’t be able to get one because they don’t just hand those things out like party favors. The responding law enforcement agency is going to take possession of it to maintain the Chain Of Custody because it is evidence of a very serious crime. The hospital will call them even if you don’t.
Even slapping someone on their ass or grabbing them by their pussies as President Trump has bragged he has done to women, is a very serious sexual assault and any supervisor I ever knew of for 40 years would get to do that exactly ONE (1) time and then they wouldn’t have been there to do it a second time. Just you know…FYI.
As Gary has pointed out… there really are TWO big ( connected ) issues here.
1. People learning to REPORT any ( and all ) “assaults” against their person. Right away. No hesitation.
2. People being “retaliated” against if they do.
ANY “Industry” has to make absolutely sure number 2 doesn’t happen within its own “walls”… but if number 1 never happens… that’s when people really do begin to believe they can just “get away with it”.
If everyone was afraid, all the time, of ever reporting criminal acts perpetrated against them… the world would be in utter chaos.
**
** U.S. FOREST SERVICE CHIEF VICKI CHRISTIANSEN IS CONFRONTED BY
** U.S. SENATOR REGARDING BATTALION CHIEF ABBY BOLT’S RESIGNATION
U.S. Forest Service Chief Vicki Christiansen showed up TODAY in front of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources. It was a pre-scheduled appearance to discuss budget issues… but she was confronted by Chairman ( Sentator ) Lisa Murkowski about Abboy Bolt’s recent resignation letter ( which she held in her hand ).
U.S. Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
Article Title: Murkowski: Shared Stewardship, Active Forest Management Essential for Rural Prosperity
Published: April 9, 2019
https://www.energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republican-news?ContentRecord_id=91ACA0DA-44EB-469E-9C77-FB5D4A2EB220
From the article…
—————————————————————————————————–
U.S. Senator. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, and chairman of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, today chaired an oversight hearing to examine the president’s nearly $5.7 billion budget request for the U.S. Forest Service for Fiscal Year (FY) 2020.
Forest Service Chief Vicki Christiansen testified on behalf of the Forest Service.
During the hearing, Murkowski held up a copy of USFS Battalion Chief Abby Bolt’s recent resignation letter and wanted to know more.
Murkowski pressed Christiansen about the urgent need to create a safer, more respectful, and harassment-free workplace environment and asked about continued deterioration within the workforce at the Forest Service.
“We are learning, and we are making corrections at every turn of the way. What we have done in the last year is – I have stood up a work environment and performance office with our most senior executive overseeing this work. This is a best practice in both private and government sectors, so we are committed to results. And it’s a three-pronged approach – first about accountability, [the] second is about prevention, and [the] third is about a sustainable change in behavior in agency culture,” Christiansen said. “When our employees spoke to us, they said we need better skills on how we speak up and early if someone is feeling offended or when they feel there is inappropriate behavior. And we’re improving organizational behavior and culture by having an ethic to stop the silence. If we can’t talk about it, then we can’t fix it.”
“I appreciate what you have detailed. I am concerned that even given the many steps that it is clear you have put in place that when you have a 22-year veteran, ( she holds up her copy of Abby Bolt’s resignation letter ), someone who has achieved a position of battalion chief saying enough is not being done, we still have a failure within YOUR system. We still have a level of harassment and assault that is clearly not acceptable. Making sure that we have good policies in place doesn’t make a difference on the ground unless and until that culture has changed,” Murkowski responded.
An archived video of today’s hearing can be found on the committee’s website.
Click here…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9QpoBou8nQ&feature=youtu.be
to view Murkowski’s questions for Christiansen.
————————————————————————–
Key quote from USFS Chief Christiansen…
“If we can’t talk about it, then we can’t fix it”
Can I get an AMEN?
And that concept applies not just to the USFS harassment culture…
It applies to accident investigations ( and accident prevention ) as well.
Followup…
Bill Gabbert, over at his ‘Wildfire Today’ blog site, actually got a response from Abby Bolt herself regarding today’s Senate hearing and the comments made to the Senators by U.S. Forest Chief Vickie Christiansen.
Abby Bolt herself is now basically confirming that USFS Chief Christiansen “spoketh with forked tongue” to the Senators today… and Christiansen is more “part of the problem” than “part of the solution”.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Forest Service Chief Christiansen testifies about harassment within the agency
Published: April 9, 2019 – By Bill Gabbert
https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/04/09/forest-service-chief-christiansen-testifies-about-harassment-within-the-agency/
From that article…
———————————————————————————————
After Abby Bolt, the Battalion Chief who resigned, saw a video of the hearing, we asked for her reaction. She wrote:
“I was not aware of the hearing that was scheduled for today until after the Wildfire Today article. As I watched the senator quote my letter it brought tears to my eyes knowing that people at all levels across the nation are truly listening. When I heard Chief Christiansen respond I was overcome with a deep pain in my heart. I have been reaching out to her since she became Chief, offering solutions for our agency including a strong social media effort to inspire and motivate all federal employees to improve their work environment. I actively requested, formally and informally, to not be forced to remain in a proven hostile work environment as I worked through the processes in place meant to deal with harassment and discrimination. Nothing was ever done to improve my toxic work environment and I strongly feel Chief Christiansen could have made a difference. The administrative harassment only continued.
“Since speaking to the media last year and revealing an assault that happened on a fire assignment in more than one interview, no one from my agency officially reached out to me in any way, not even to ensure they weren’t liable or to find out how to prevent anything in the future. They did not seem to care or be interested in learning from the incident. I was worried that a landslide of inquiries would be required and prepared myself for the stress. However, I felt zero support just as I feared I would back when it happened which drove me to push forward in silence. The administrative harassment only continued. Vicki was aware of everything, yet she did nothing, at least not that I was made aware of.”
———————————————————————————————
Here’s an interesting article from the Up In Flames website posting a USFS Battalion Chief’s resignation letter … effectively immediately.
She evidently posted it nationally throughout her Agency last Friday, April 5, 2019.
“Resignation Effective Immediately – Female Firefighter Speaks Up & Walks Out With Pride
Published April 6, 2019 / by Savvy / 19 Comments on Resignation Effective Immediately – Female Firefighter Speaks Up & Walks Out With Pride
“Some may not agree with my style of sharing hard truths to cause a shift. There is no doubt that true friends, mentors and leaders rise to the top of our lives at times like these. I have been warned that I might burn bridges. However, I know this, any bridge I burn because of my efforts to seek improvement or inspire change, leads to a path I would never want to venture down.”
( http://upinflames.org/2019/04/06/resignation-effective-immediately-female-firefighter-speaks-up-walks-out-with-pride/ )
Brave person. Good for her.
I read the entire resignation ( and the many powerful comments already left as well )…. but I’m still a little confused as to EXACTLY what the problem(s) were/are.
She obviously chose not to “name names”… but she was also still pretty short on details… so it’s hard to even know what specific CHANGES she is/was recommending.
It’s obvious ( from her writing ) that the USFS Kern River Ranger District is ( and always has been? ) just a fucked up place to work… but some more details would have been good.
Example ( from her resignation letter )…
“Morally and ethically, I cannot remain with an organization who does not support those who speak up and out, those who challenge the status quo and those who look for opportunities to improve the workplace environment.”
Totally agree… and KUDOS… but that falls far short of knowing what the REAL problem(s) were/are.
Do you know anything more about exactly WHY the USFS just lost such a fine employee?
It’s her vague references to “no concern for safety” that worry me most.
Is she trying to say that the Kern Rive Ranger District is ( and always has been ) just about to KILL people… or that it’s a miracle they haven’t already done so?
Inquiring minds ( and taxpayers who PAY for ALL of this ) WANT to know.
I read and it is very well written by an obviously intelligent, articulate and informed person and I want to be supportive and understanding , I really. My only problem is, I can’t figure out what the hell the problem is except for some really well written but very vague generalities.
My suggestion would be to either go all in, or just stay out. In fir a penny…in foepr a pound. Based on my experience in life, you won’t be forgiven even if you just put your big tie in, so don’t do that, or if you do…take the plunge.
In addition, I have been doing research on the effects of smoke inhalation on wild land firefighters and I couldn’t have been more wrong about the need to bring the issue to the attention both the NWCG and MEDC. They have studied the issue to death in the past and it appears to me they have reached a determination of what needs to be done to protect the health of wild land firefighters….absolutely nothing.
Their overall answer is really quite brilliant and I just wish I would have thought of their solution myself decades ago when I was experiencing my own problems with smoke inhalation. They have essentially collectively decided that if smoke bothers you…you just shouldn’t breathe it.
And in fact you should take your bodies negative reaction to smoke as a warning sign that something is wrong and you should change locations to an area where the smoke doesn’t bother you. I guess it’s kind of like switching where you are standing or sitting around a campfire based on the wind direction. Just move to the other side of the fire so the smoke is being blown away from you…not at you.
The beauty and simplicity of their revelation is nothing short of pure genius. I stand in awe of all of the brilliant staff civil servants who came up with such plan. My only problem is…I have run out of adjectives to adequately describe exactly what I think of both them and their ideas, so I am going to directly quote the recognized Subject Matter Experts (SME) on the topic starting with Dick Magan from MEDC whose name I am familiar with second only to Dr. Ted Putnam.
“I think basically if an individual firefighter is sensitive to the conditions that they’re experiencing, running nose, watering eyes, it looks smokey, then it’s probably not a place you want to be-take the common sense step of backing off a few feet, getting into a different location … using the natural conditions that are out there to put yourself in a better environment.”
Dick Mangan, MTDC
The next SME I am going to directly quote is the expert who lead the study by MEDC for the NWCG…Dr. Brian Skarkey.
“To reduce the risk of exposure I would first of all move forward to implement the recommendations of our conference. If we do that and if we monitor to see how we’re doing, I have a feeling that we will have largely removed most of the risk. If not, then we need to take additional steps and those additional steps could include the use of respirators. It could include totally different ways of fighting fire.”
Brian Sharkey
And finally, here are some very wise words and conclusions from all of the other SME’s and study participants with their own conclusions and helpful hints.
“What we found was for the average exposure assumptions, in other words most of the people, there doesn’t seem to be a problem.”
Tom Booze
“The firefighters have a health risk at both wildfires and prescribed fires. It is a risk that probably is less than some of the other risks that they have out on the fireline, such as falling snags and rolling rocks and getting hurt with their tools that they’re using, and also just driving on very narrow roads and hiking in very steep and rugged terrain.”
Roger Ottmar
Dr. Brian Sharkey of MTDC was one of many looking into the health effects of exposure to smoke. Short-term exposures cause eye irritation, coughs, and sore throats. Lung function tests show a small but significant decline in lung function that reverses when the person is no longer exposed. So the short-term effects tend to be transitory and reversible.
“Given the time to recover, the human lung has a remarkable ability to cleanse itself.”
Brian Sharkey
Tiny hairlike projections called cilia sweep particles out of respiratory passages. Days or weeks of exposure may suppress ciliary action and immune function, and set the stage for particle buildup and bronchitis. Those with asthma and allergies may experience more problems with exposure. Researchers recommended a study to determine the long-term effects of exposure to smoke.
Dr. Tom Booze, a toxicologist with Radian International, conducted a risk assessment to estimate the long-term health effects of exposure. He looked at two exposure assumptions, an average exposure and a worst case scenario that assumed very high exposure levels for 9.4 hours a day, 97 days a year for 25 years-a condition that exceeds any known exposure. Under this worst case scenario, the risk assessment showed some increase in cancer risk, and the noncancer health risks indicated the likelihood of respiratory irritation.
“What we found was for the average exposure assumptions, in other words most of the people, there doesn’t seem to be a problem.”
Tom Booze
Recommendations From Project Participants “Probably the most important thing that can be done by managers is to plan ahead, to organize their fire-their managed fires especially-in a way that keeps firefighters out of high smoke concentration areas.”
Darold Ward
“I think the most important recommendation to reduce the risk of firefighters to smoke exposure is awareness training. . . There are ways in which they can reduce that exposure level and thus reduce their risk.”
Roger Ottmar
“I’d recommend that you . . . monitor your exposure in some way, . . listen to the alarm of your senses that are telling you this smoke is uncomfortable and avoid it.”
Tim Reinhardt
“A principle of toxicology is reduce your exposure to reduce your risk. So the more steps you take to cut back on smoke exposure, dust exposure, et cetera, the more you’re doing to reduce your risk of adverse health effects.”
Tom Booze
“I think we can do some real easily implementable things to reduce the incidence of upper respiratory infection in firefighters. I don’t think they’d have to cost an awful lot of money. I think we need to emphasize the importance of good physical fitness … good personal hygiene, and healthy behaviors.”
Mark Vore, USDA FS
Reply to Gary Olson on April 7, 2019 at 10:52 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I read and it is very well written by an obviously intelligent,
>> articulate and informed person and I want to be supportive and
>> understanding, I really do.
>>
>> My only problem is, I can’t figure out what the hell the problem
>> is except for some really well written but very vague generalities.
My thoughts exactly.
Gets my attention ( as a concerned citizen and taxpayer )… but then doesn’t tell me what I need to know.
Very well written… but it’s what is MISSING that I have a problem with.
Spell it out, fer chrissakes.
Perfect time for a full-monty “drop the mike” moment… but she didn’t do it.
But then… everything ELSE you just wrote above fits in EXACTLY with some of what she just had to say about the USFS…
From Abby L. Bolt’s USFS resignation letter at…
—————————————————————————–
Many things I have experienced the last few years havebeen similar to the “stuff” fatality investigations are made of. I have tried repeatedly to share my concerns and relate them to hazardous human factors and actions that play a part in the SwissCheese Model which can lead to deadly outcomes.
The sad part is, the agency ( USFS ) made my decision to resign an easy realization. The agency ( USFS ) has no true desire to implement effective change to the workplace environment. Since the oversight committee hearings in 2016, THREE years ago, there has not been any meaningful change other than the standard reaction of more systematic training.”
———————————————————————————-
The agency ( USFS ) has no true desire to implement effective change to the workplace environment.
And ( as we all know ) that includes making changes that might stop KILLING employees.
Nothing to see. Move along.
I think a lot of her letter dealt with Treatment of women on the district.
She talked about getting the union involved and hiring a Lawyer.
Also the inability to deal with Fire accidents cause and effects.
I will say I worked on the Kernville Ranger District the First 5 1/2 years 1962 to 1967 of my carrier. It was a great place to work then but we also had no women in fire positions. That did not start until the early 70s.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 8, 2019 at 7:39 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I think a lot of her letter dealt with Treatment of women
>> on the district. She talked about getting the union
>> involved and hiring a Lawyer. Also the inability to deal
>> with Fire accidents cause and effects.
Maybe so… but for whatever reasons… she chose not to make that clear and/or make it the CENTRAL issue of her resignation letter.
Some of what she is attempting to reveal seems absolutely non-gender specific.
The stuff about her trying to prevent what appeared to be OBVIOUS ‘human factors’ issues that could lead to FATALITIES… and even THOSE concerns were being ignored… concerns me most.
Sounds like she was doing exactly what she SHOULD have been doing in that regard… but then not only was IGNORED but then both she and her FAMILY started receiving THREATS.
That’s a big deal ( in ANY industry or workplace environment ).
Could it be that she is trying to describe another potential “Eric Marsh” situation… where someone is in a position of authority who is not necessarily qualified to be there? Someone who might be just an “accident waiting to happen”… but no one wants to do anything about it?
It’s the kind of resignation letter that really should involve ‘followup’… and an investigation of the more serious claims.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 8, 2019 at 7:39 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I think a lot of her letter dealt with Treatment of
>> women on the district.
As it turns out… not just her own district and her own personal experiences. Abby Bolt had become a ‘spokeswoman’ for all women trying to have a career in Forestry.
Just Goggle “Abby Bolt Forest Service” and you start to get the whole picture.
PBS News did a VIDEO FEATURE segment on Rape, harassment and retaliation just last year, and Abby Bolt was one of the 34 women in 13 different states who wasn’t afraid to “tell her story”.
The report details the absolutely-proven “Culture of Retaliation” that STILL exists in the U.S. Forestry Service if ANYONE ever reports any sexual misconduct.
PBS News Hour
Article Title: Rape, harassment and retaliation in the U.S. Forest Service: Women firefighters tell their stories.
Published: March 1, 2018 – By William Brangham
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/rape-harassment-and-retaliation-in-the-u-s-forest-service-women-firefighters-tell-their-stories
NOTE: This is a VIDEO segment that aired just last year on PBS.
The text below is from their own transcript of the video.
Battalion Chief Abby Bolt was interviewed on-camera at the +3:50 mark.
From the VIDEO…
————————————————————————
Women in the U.S. Forest Service aren’t just fighting fires; some are fighting sexual misconduct in the most remote parts of the country. In an exclusive PBS NewsHour investigation, 34 women in 13 states told their stories of rape, harassment, gender discrimination and the retaliation that followed after they reported abuse.
William Brangham reports.
+3:50
William Brangham:
Abby Bolt is a battalion chief in California’s Sequoia National Forest. When she first got into firefighting 20 years ago, she knew it was a tough and macho environment. She didn’t complain about the pornography that were left on her truck seat or the physical hazing. And later, as she rose through the ranks of the Forest Service, she saw other women speak up, and suffer for it.
Abby Bolt:
Watching somebody that would file a complaint, or make a complaint, immediately became the problem. And we have the term that girl or those girls.
William Brangham:
Bolt says, six years ago, she had a harrowing experience, where this culture of not complaining came back to haunt her. In 2012, while she was fighting a fire in Colorado along with multiple other agencies, another firefighter, not from the Forest Service, raped her.
Abby Bolt:
It was toward the end of the assignment. And I just don’t think I can say the word, but — I mean, I can just say, I mean, we know what sexually assaulted means, right? So, I was — I woke up the next day covered in bruises. And I was just like, this is not happening. I’m not this person. I’m not this girl.
William Brangham:
She got a rape kit and filed a police report, but she didn’t end up pressing charges, and she didn’t report it to the Forest Service.
Abby Bolt:
I could just see this whole process going down, and the only person that was going to lose everything in their world was going to be me and my family. They were going to — I just — I have seen how it goes down. The person that complains becomes the trash.
William Brangham:
Bolt worries that speaking out now means her retaliation is only going to get worse, but she wants other women to know they’re not alone.
Abby Bolt:
There are so many women out there that are so afraid. You know, I have talked to them. And I have said, you need to speak up. And I’ll hear, like, “I’m so close to retirement Abby, I can’t,” or, “I have come this far,” or, “I have to support my family, and I can’t do that.” And if I lose my job now, but it helps me get it a little bit better, I’m at the point where I stand up for what’s right. And if that — at this point, if that’s what it means, then that’s what it means.
———————————————————————
But even with all that… Abby Bolt still did NOT make that the central issue of her resignation. She still said it had a lot to do with UNSAFE behavior and potential fatalities… but being unable to make any changes even in THAT area.
OMGosh…on my worst days in the USFS I never encountered or even heard about anything like that story, I am dumbfounded. I must have led a sheltered existence? My experience as I keep saying was pretty narrow, but again…OMGosh!
Story Time,
This is the very worst sexual harassment incident I was ever experienced or was even aware of after working on three National Forests in two states for 15 years, four of them at the Forest level and in law enforcement where we hear about a lot of things that happened and I had women on my Hotshots crew’s for 5 years.
When I was with the Santa Fe Hotshots, we were down on the Tonto National Forest, Tonto Basin Ranger District for a lightning bust staged at Roosevelt Lake in the dessert where it was hot, really hot in the middle of summer.
And the way hotshot crews are normally used for lighting busts, is to preposition them at a helibases and then send them out in small modules usually consisting of usually only three crewmembers, because that is how many that fit on most Hughes 500’s or Bell Ranger helicopters, but it could be as many as a full squad in several loads.
And just sitting on the bus for hours on end in the mind numbing heat just waiting to go out can really take a toll on people and their morale while making them a little crazy.
So one of the women on our crew was walking down the aisle of the bus and a male crew member says, “Do you know you are really sweating a lot right around your nipples?” (She was braless).
Which was really a stupid, pointless and outrageous thing to say that was inexcusable. I wasn’t on the bus when the comment was made, but she immediately found me and said she wanted to file a complaint for sexual harassment.
I went ballistic and ordered the crewman to both apologize to her and again in front of the entire crew who had been present when the comment was made. She accepted his apology and the matter was closed.
Now…that isn’t a good story, but it’s one hell of a long ways from rape or even leaving a pornographic book on a females seat. I don’t know if the Playboy and Penthouse (nothing worse than those) magazines disappeared or not, but they weren’t left laying around for just everyone to see when there were women on our crew.
I’m telling you, those stories are not the USFS that I knew or the norm. RAPE! OMGosh! Serious hazing and sexual harassment, never. Everybody got teased, but usually not if they had a temper or weren’t into joking around with others. And most women at that time could really dish it out and they had mutual respect.
I already told the worst sexual harassment experience I ever had. It was when two young women came into the open style military shower to shower with me. And what I didn’t like was that the water was kinda cold, so…
I don’t doubt anything Abby Bolt said, and she has to be one tough person, I’m just saying that wasn’t the USFS I knew. It sounds yeti me like they need to clean house on that shit hole, hillbilly Ranger District for starters.
Whoops, I missed a chance to you know…post a link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ldUZvxjKMGs
And inbred Ranger District, because based on my experience, those kind of problems can only fester on inbred districts where most if not all of the employees come from a small local, isolated population where everybody is related to everybody else and not many people move in or out.
A few “directed reassignments” to the Alaska Fire Service would knock that shit off in a New York Minute. I know how to do it and…I’m available.
Did you actually watch the PBS video at the link above?
Looks like the USFS has really stepped up its game since you were there.
Listen to the woman firefighter telling Senator Trey Gowdy how her USFS supervisor cornered her, then cut her shirt and bra open with a letter opener… and even though she reported it… nothing happened.
That’s some serious shit ( as Senator Trey Gowdy himself said ).
No, I didn’t watch it, I was just reacting to the information of the rape here and the other sexual harassment which just stunned me with that alone. And yes, it sounds like things in some places are crazy out of control, I guess I shouldn’t say, I can’t believe it, but I am dumbfounded nevertheless.
And I do know that line or management, will do some outrageous things to protect each other, but it’s usually covering up the fact the head ranger had the fire crew cutting his firewood, building his house with supplies he ordered for the district, running a firesupply business on the side, or taking bottles of good booze from the timber contractor, those kind of things. But rape and sexual assault…that’s just plain crazy behavior that is…bad, really bad to be Captain Obvious.
The USFS has an IG if their special agents are kept out somehow and there is always local law enforcement although in thes small towns, maybe the USFS has some extra push….but THAT? CRAZY!
Oh…and I guess I had better watch the video at the link. I was part of the end of the old USFS, they were far from perfect, but the culture was more like the USFS Ranger who was the support actor for Lassie on that old TV show.
At the remote districts, and most district offices were remote, or in very small towns, it really could be idyllic life for someone who wanted to live out in the forest and take care of Mother Nature.
You know…if by taking care of Mother Nature I mean cutting most of the big trees down so people could have cheap lumber to fuel the building boom that started after WWII and has never stopped for very long. 🙂
But…they really did try their best to find a balance with their congressional mandated “Multiple Use Policies.”.
Well…I watched the program, and even though I don’t have a problem criticizing everyone and every agency for everything I don’t like or didn’t like, I just never experienced that kind of behavior or even heard about it.
But like I have written, my experiences on fires that weren’t in office settings or at least field offices, was limited to being a hotshot.
And in those situations, we were all together all of the time without exception and except for the one incident I have described here, alcohol or any “partying” was strictly forbidden until we got home and we were off duty and on days off. Except together on Saturday night at the Mormon Lake Lodge. Santa Fe Fire debriefing were limited almost exclusively to the first night after returning from a fire, or the first night of our days off together as a crew.
I just can’t relate to the stories contained in the PBS program. I believe them, I just can’t relate them to any experience I had or was ever told about.
Although retiring shouldn’t have anything to do with prosecuting someone for sexual assault. That would be the responsibility of the Sherriff’s Office or the local police department if it happened at an office or duty station in town.
And I don’t want to start picking at everything I saw as inconsistencies in some of the stories, but I did see some. But here is one example.
The one young lady said she heard from Washington Forests but not Oregon Forests. There isn’t any organizational structure that connects Oregon Forests to each other that doesn’t also link all of the Washington Forests together with the Oregon Forests. Washington and Oregon make up Region 6 and the Forests in both states are managed jointly by the same personnel office, and fire management team, in addition to everything else from one central regional office.
The USFS doesn’t look at Arizona and New Mexico as being separate states, it looks at both of them as they are Region 3, which is a single management and administrative unit.
So…it just doesn’t make sense to me that someone who is blackballed in Oregon, wouldn’t also be blackballed in Washington State.
For one thing, like I have said, there is only 2 degrees of separation from almost the entire National Interagency Fire Community, there would only be 1 degree of separation between USFS FIRE in Washington and Oregon,
So…I would just like to know more…that’s all.
And because of the procedures that have to be followed by federal law for every termination, there just isn’t anyway to fire someone before they can either quit or retire. And once they are no longer an employee, an agency can’t take disciplinary action against a former employee.
In addition, if someone has put in the time and havemet the necessary standards to be able to retire, an agency can’t deny that right to them based on the fact they have been accused of a crime.
As a matter of fact, their retirement isn’t even linked to an employee being convicted of a crime. Our laws don’t include denying anyone their retirement benefits as part of their statutory punishment for committing a crime.
File the complaint, persecute and convict him, send him to prison, and then they can electronically send his retirement check to the prison commissary so he can buy candy bars and noodle soup.
And that is just an example of what I consider to be a red herring with misleading video with what had to have been selective editing and dusengenuous reporting by PBS or the USFS spokesperson is a complete idiot and didn’t understand herself how our laws work herself.
And this is getting even further down into the weeds, but as I have written before, our founding fathers were afraid of a national police force, so federal police powers and laws are very selective.
In general, rape and sexual assault is not a federal crime. It wouldn’t have been within the jurisdiction of any federal agency, including the USFS when Abby Bolt was rap d while on a fire, either by another agency employee or even a USFS employee.
That would have been exclusively within the authority and jurisdiction of that county’s Sherriffs Office. The USFS could have and would have assisted, but even the prosecution and incarceration would have been by the state (or county attorney) and then off to state prison for the offender.
There are many National Parks that have Exclusive Jurisdiction by law where they would investigate all crimes, but all USFS land has Concurrent Jurisdiction.
And I have never worked anywhere where any woman would be blamed for being raped while on a fire or off a fire, especially in her case where she was bruised and had a rape kit, nothing about her decision not to report that to the Sheriffs Office made any sense to me.
There must really be some bad USFS places to work, and apparently the Sequoia National Forest is one of them.
I can assure you if I, or any USFS LE person I have ever known or worked with would have taken immediate action to do everything we could to help make her situation as good as it could possibly be if I (or those I worked with) would have been working as security officers on that fire. The USFS does provide uniformed and fully armed LE officers as fire camp security who are always close by.
As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, I am very disappointed that Abby Bolt didn’t report that rape. It is highly unlikely that anyone who would be so brazen as to rape a firefighter on a fire, would not have raped many other women before and having gotten away with it in her case, it is highly unlikely that he won’t rape again.
And on top of that, there are many other considerations such as the transmission of communicable disease that are sexually transmitted and any guy like that would have been a walking time bomb for very serious and potentially even deadly disease.s, some of which that are incurable.
That story is shocking on so many levels I am obviously having a hard time wrapping my mind around it. There needed to be some serious medical followup in her case. The OWCP would own all of that on behalf of the USFS and the American people. It’s not like getting date raped after a night out on the town. The f derail government has some serious responsibility for your problem.
And I hate to take it to this level because it may sound absurd, but it would have been very, very, important for her to have filed a CA-1 (Report Of a traumatic injury) with her supervisor in case she had contracted some kind of dehabilitating, incurable or even deadly sexually transmitted disease and God forbid an unwanted pregnancy.
So…if any other women out there ever get raped on a fire or on the job with the federal government, please, please, please report it immediately.
In other words, the federal government OWNED Abby Bolt’s rape and everything that came with it in the aftermath, Any attorney could have gotten her a huge monetary settlement. She probably could have gotten one WITHOUT an attorney. That’s the kind of case where the Solicitor comes in with a blank check and let’s you fill in the amount..
Don’t let them off the hook. Make them pay. The USFS was RESPONSIBLE for Ms. Bolt’s safety and security while she was on that fire (or any other job) but especially a fire assignment. That was just crazy.
Okay, I am going to have to let this go. But from every experience I have ever had on a fire, especially one that would have obviously been a project fire because it was out of state and had multiple agencies represented on it, the fires and the personnel on them are so tightly controlled a firefighter can’t go to the First Aid tent and get a band aid much less take off and find their own transportation to the nearest hospital to get their own rape kit without their supervisor being aware of it.
I have to control my OCD now and just let all of this go because the stories in that PBS Special are driving me crazy with the way they were both told by the victims and presented by PBS.
I’m not saying they were bullshit, I’m just saying they were intended for an audience who didnt have a clue about either how the system is supposed to operate and how in fact it does operate based on my 22 years of land management based law enforcement in addition to my time as a Deputy Sheriff. We lived to kick ass on cases, especially cases like those. That’s why we did the job.
USFS LEO #1, Anything happen last night that I need to know about?
USFS LEO # 2, Not really…but I heard some woman got raped either while she was asleep and then she woke up with bruises, or maybe she was raped but then fell asleep and woke up later with the bruises?I don’t know because I didn’t investigate it because I was too busy standing here and making sure fire crews didn’t steal these cases of candy bars or smoke dope in the shitter.
USFS LEO #1, No shit, maybe she was drugged? How come she didn’t tell you or any of the rest of the team of security officers in that were patrolling fire camp?
USFS LEO # 2, Don’t know? And maybe…that would be the only thing that makes any sense but I guess we’ll never know if she was drugged or not?
USFS LEO #1, How come we’ll never know?
USFS LEO #2, Well…apparently she snuck away from her crew or the other people she came out here with, found a vehicle with the keys left in it, talked her way part our Check Point at the entrance to fire camp, and then her way past the Check Point run by the State Police and Sheriffs Office to keep people out of this area, drove herself to the nearest town, checked herself into a hospital and explained to them that she had been raped and she wanted a rape exam done by the attending ER physician.
USFS LEO #1, That sounds crazy. Didnt the ER staff notify the Sherriffs Office immediately according to state law? You know they have laws to protect people from STD’s and AIDS spread by rapists.
USFS LEO #2, Yes…they followed state law and their required protocols, and she filed a complaint, but she wasn’t really interested in pursuing it. She just wanted a rape kit done with semen samples and trace evidence collected because she wanted her own rape kit.
USFS LEO #1, What for?
USFS LEO #2, I don’t know…she didn’t tell anyone else.
USFS LEO #1, What happened then?
USFS LEO #2, She just drove back to fire camp, talked her way past both check points again, put the stolen vehicle back where she found it, rejoined her crew and went out on the line without telling anyone else because she didn’t want to be known as one of “those girls.”
USFS LEO #1, That doesn’t make any sense. If some terminal asshole was so crazy to go as far to rape a woman on a fire assignment, there is zero chance he hasn’t raped other women before and will do so again because he is growing increasingly daring and violent in addition to the fact he is a serial rapist and a walking Petri dish of communicable sexually transmitted diesese, some of which are incurable. He left this woman dazed and injured…maybe he will kill the next one?
USFS LEO #2. Yeah I know…too bad the rape victim wasn’t willing to support other women who have been victimized in the past and will be victimized in the future and we could have given that asshole 3 from the ring and 9 from the sky and made him do the funky chicken? Just kidding…we don’t do THAT stuff anymore because everybody has a video cam nowadays, Hahaha!
USFS LEO #1, I’m pickin’ up what you’re puttin’ down…too bad! Hahaha, nope, we don’t do THAT! Hahaha
USFS LEO 2#, Well…maybe in a few years she will recount her story to PBS way past time it will help anyone and stop a serial rapist who assaults women, but her televised story will successfully spread vague generalities that are inconsistent and implausible while casting a cloud of suspicion over an the entire wild land firefighting community on national television anchored by a PBS “journalist” who doesn’t know what a follow up question is. Well…keep on close eye on these candy bars and have a good shift.
USFS LEO #1, Copy that 5×5. Oh…by the way, do you believe her story?
USFS LEO #2, Of course I believe it, I’m part of the #MeToo movement.
USFS LEO #1, Yeah…#MeToo!
Whoops, l meant to write,
“Three from the ring, nine from the sky, knee drop him and make him do the funky chicken.”
I was trained by a rural Sherriffs Office in northern Arizona in the mid 1970.’s. Those boys and Flag PD knew how to play hard ball.
Oh…and one more thing. Maybe Shit-For-Brains 4 year lead prosecutor Trey Gowdy who found nothing regarding Benghazigate has seen government letter openers, or any letter opener for that matter that will cut open a woman’s blouse and cut off her bra, but I never have,
I’m pretty sure that would take a knife, and not just any knife if the woman is squirming around…a pretty fuckin’ sharp knife.
There might be some really good reasons why she didn’t try sell that story to the local police investigators and saved it for Trey.
Does anyone know what the odds of are of cutting the clothes off a woman who is squirming around and freaking out with a sharp knife and NOT cutting her bad in multiple places while you a accidently cut yourself at the same time and leave blood EVERYWHERE.?
I don’t know either…but I’m pretty sure it’s ZERO.
Although Trey Gowdy did confirm what we already knew. U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens died an American Hero and fool for playing Russian Roulette with a revolver that had five rounds loaded in a six round cylinder.
The only problem is…his poor decision making for his safety cost the lives of three other American Heroes at the same time.
I think her problem is probably rooted in the three things the U.S. Forest Service values more than anything else.
1. Tradition
2. Tradition
3. Tradition
And women never played a traditional role open the U.S. Forest Service and don’t even mention anyone from the LBG and T unless they are closet L type, maybe, some places, some time, or the system will go in to apoplectic stroke.
Based on my somewhat outdated experience with the USFS, they change at about the same rate molasses flows downhill at high elevations in the winter time. The USFS makes the U.S. Military look like a radical, free thinking, progressive, forward looking agent for change.
These are things I have written before on this thread. And of course just like the military is famous for, the USFS is always preparing to fight the last fire, not the next one. The difference between the two institutions is that our military has recognized that flaw and have been working for decades to do better.
I have also written on this thread that is why the Yarnell Hill Fire Team couldn’t wrap their heads around the catastrophic disaster they found themselves in the middle of and they were unable to change tactics or even how they dealt with an exponentially developing situation. They still thought, acted, and proceeded with their LINEAR tactics, thinking, and reactions.
They were still coloring inside the lines while they painted there picture by the numbers sequentially just like the smokejumper does his count and I even think the unfolding disaster made their brains actually lock up just like his does in the cartoon, 1…2…3…4…4…4…4…
The Yarnell Hill Fire was throwing paint all over their canvas just like Maude in the Big Lebowski and they just couldn’t cope with what they were witnessing because Fire Generalship had trained them to fail by not preparing fior the day that’s coming for all of us and has already arrived for many. “We haven’t seen FIRE do that before!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMbc1Q2OQ4
You can all see for yourselves how WILD FIRES are traditionally fought,
1. Local fire team loses it and transitions to a
2. Type short 2 team in the case of Arizona Forestry, by cannabalizing critical line positioned like the crew boss of the GMIHC and then they lose it and transition to
3. And I think that was as far as they got and the war was over…right? The team they were trying to bring was a Type 1 but they never made it right…WTKTT?
Or how did that prigression go, my mind is a little fuzzy right now?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c7cZeGhltck
They were always a day late and a dollar short, I remember that much.
Actually, I m pretty sure I know why Abby Bolt’s letter was as vague and as general as it was, she is afraid of being sued. She did mention a family ranch and Abby probably owns a house there in town. My freedom to spout off comes at a price. It’s not more than I can afford, or I’m willing to pay, but it does cost. Nothing comes free.
You left out the part where Roy Hall showed up in Yarnell Sunday morning and knew right away that the bullshit Type 2 SHORT team that had been thrown together the night before with retirees and double-dippers just wasn’t going to cut the cake. The fire had NOT ‘laid down’ overnight and was now a much bigger deal than the night before when all they were interested in doing was saving money with the least possible ramp-up.
So from the moment Roy Hall hit the deck… he was only concerned with “ramping up”… and even the moment when Todd Abel and Eric Marsh ‘suggested’ to him that GM hike into the boondock just to ‘anchor’ the fire ( like Darrell Willis had told Marsh to do before he ever got there )… Roy Hall was already so distracted that he ‘approved’ that eventually-tragic assignment with just a basic “Yea… yea… right…whatever you think” wave-off.
Even before things officially transitioned to the Type 2 SHORT ( circa 10:30 AM ), Roy Hall had ALREADY been on the phone to do an end-run around the whole ROSS ordering system and start cannibalizing Bea Day’s REAL Type 2 team for the missing Safety Officers, DIVS, etc.
So they all started coming to Yarnell, just because Roy Hall was crying for help. Marty Cole didn’t. He wouldn’t even START to head for Yarnell until he was SURE his order was real and he would get PAID. He waited for ’email confirmations’ before heading to Yarnell that day. That’s why he never arrived to be one of the 2 Safety Officers until just before the deployment.
That is also why we got the ‘3 Prescotteers’ from the USFS Prescott National Fores. Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd. They showed up with their little trailers and ATVs all ready to be ‘commandeeros’… but only on arriving discovered they were obsolete because the whole deal was going up to a Type 1 and they weren’t going to get paid.
But they ‘jumped in’ anyway… acting like they were actively assigned to the fire and not just ‘freelancing’.
And the ultimate irony is that these 3 Federal FFs ended up being the ones tearing around looking for the ‘missing’ GM Hotshots and 3 of the first 5 firefighters to actually see the horror out at the deployment site.
And then USFS sycophant Mike Dudley proceeded to try and make it look like those FEDERAL FFs were never even there that day.
It was a MESS.
As Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby said in that email recently obtained by Joy Collura…
“The human factors were OFF THE CHARTS that day”.
And then ( sure enough ) people DIED.
I do know that the Kern River Dist has changed a lot.
They now have 2 Large 500 Gal Eng. with crews and a Hot Shot Crew in Kern Ville. I believe they have 2 other Eng. out on the Forest/Dist. as well plus 5 Fire prevention.
When I was there 1 300 gal Eng. 3 truck patrol and 2 back country horse patrols. Big change over the years.
Women sued the FS Calif. Reg. in the early 80s over job discrimination and were hired in many fire jobs over men.
So there is ( now ) a Type 1 Hotshot crew operating out of this District?
I wonder if any of the ‘human factors that might lead to fatalities’ issues she is trying to describe involve THAT crew, in any way?
Yes they have had a type one crew for close to 20 years in Kernville. They also have a Helitack crew.
Forgot to add the Sequoia has 3 type 1 Crews..
I was in the USFS during that period and that consent decree was adopted by the USFS nationwide including in Region 3 and it just made things worse in most cases for women because although some did get hired into jobs they shouldn’t have, it ended up tainting every woman as unqualified and undeserving to be there and just made the discrimination against women much worse.
I doubt if you could find an employee who seems to me to be better qualified and more dedicated than Abby Bolt seems to be by every objective measure and they managed to drive her out of a job she loved and was good at after 22 years in 2019. That is…I’m out of words.
I loved the USFS, but I didn’t love or even like many of the things they did. I mean, I have two daughters, a sister and s mother, what man should be for discrimination against women that we all know still exists everywhere in our society?
Oh…and one more thing. I also have two granddaughters that I know are going to be discriminated against as well.
I sure do wish you would write THE definitive book for the ages about the Yanell Hill Fire Disaster.
Meaning HAL 9000, who has the computer processor for a brain.
I did read her comments–very well done–although you have the feeling that the powers that are the problem will continue. Once you get up the government ladder with enough rungs near the top, the more secure your job is and the more you can make life miserable for those below.
Yes the effects of smoke on the individual are many. Carbon that remains in the lungs absorbs radon and why smokers are greatly susceptible to .cancer. But little is said about the lung killing effects of the ammonium nor the chemical reactions that create cancer along with the smoke itself. Then add in numerous chemicals hidden by trade secret and you have the management in FS that love secrets. Keep your mouth shut unless you say something good about them–they believe themselves beyond reproach.
Certainly the asthmatics are killed easily by the retardant fumes. Look at the case of Zack Ashoor–dead at 29. Died within a year after hiking through the fresh and excessive retardant dumps at Yarnell. Only Joy can name dozens with lung issues after the drops–and now approaching 200 deaths out of 645 population after only 6 years since the first Yarnell dousing with retardant, and only three years after the 2015 second dousing of the Yarnellites. What more evidence do you need that the retardant is a dangerous pollutant?
Anything that will kill other animals–eg-the 20000 dead fish killed for six miles in the Fall River, Oregon from only 1000 gallons of that pollutant –ought to be suspect for human health dangers as well. Know that ammonium is a deadly gas and if a city has a tank car burst, the area is evacuated. It kills lung cilia that never regenerate–but perhaps like Sonny who has had one lung shot out and after the Yarnell Fire continues to exist–but with such diminished lung capacity that his former hikes are now impossible. But too many–a third of Yarnell–have not been so fortunate to continue to survive the effects of the retardant drops in the amounts of 500 thousand gallons per fire.
Cowboy intelligence is beyond many–a cowboy has the formula to square a circle that no mathematician knows–ram a 4×4 up a bulls ass. Common horse sense goes a long ways.
Exactly Gary–the fire industry plays down the toxicity factor. One of the greatest tragedies involving burning of poly steroids happened in Russia December of 2009. Cyanide poisioning from the cyanide infused gases killed 156 people–111 immediately and 45 after a time of hospitalization. Cyanide poisoning is played down due to its constant use in industry–especially in making plastics. However it is established that at least 400 tonnes of ferrocyanide are included in the polluting retardant drops. It is also known that forest fires are the greatest source of environmental pollution involving cyanide.
So there is great danger involved in fires–elevated danger in fires burning plastics–whether those paper face masks are of much use to protect individuals I do not know but some sort of respirators are necessary to protect the wild land fire fighter.
The shame is people are not informed nor warned of the dangers of the chemicals being dumped around them and I am quite certain even the wild land fire fighters are uniformed until later in life when the effects of the chemicals and toxicity of the fires shows its ugly head in the form of cancer, lung disease and heart problems.
I should have said 400 tonnes of Ferrocyanide are included in the yearly drops of retardant. No wonder they hide the ingredients under trade secret. People are being poisoned to one degree or another by these retardant drops.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474237
I read your comment above is the link wtktt
(there is a hint within that comment to what is coming out this year)
and I have spent countless hours placing documents where they need to be and as I looked again through Todd Abel and Cougan C.’s extensive profiles – and so many more WF/FFs extensive profiles
it is not at all easy what I am about to do this year because it is obvious this fire industry is their world and I still have been praying like you Gary that first hand people come forward before I do our presentation
because some of the names I share will be shocking
and it will make sense why four women did what they did because they either knew the end results and wanted to re-route it to honor the fallen and stay locked there
versus discuss the real time moments
that has left too many traumatized because their account has been hidden all these years
or the ladies truly were ignorant to the data.
The vile ways from them – I am unsure and it is unknown where they lay in this- however I forgive all of them.
So yeah it is hard to see the many certificates and time and love and hours that I see in these profiles but like I said if I am alive or not the TRUTHS are in action and I pray the people first hand tell it because when I do there is no way I can be sued because I have ensured I covered it well.
If anything please pray and give forgiveness
(even to the ones who protected as well as the ones that caused me harm and sad slanderous misguided content over time)
– that is needed-
prayers and forgiveness
The reason we are bringing it out is because too many remain hidden and are still very much affected…
Some of the ones who are being protected are the ones we are telling their story or if bravery has it will show up and tell it themselves first hand.
As for Marty Cole- at the academy last year (2018) he was casual in body language but this year (2019) he seemed to be every where I was at times and at times awful close (in hearing distance) and this year his body language was not welcoming at all towards me and very barrier-like but everyone else was top notch except the immediate social media statements using my intellectual properties during my training time at the academy and yet I passed my classes.
Now there is social media people stating that the photo I took of Eric and mystery man is false. That is very untrue and when I get the audio for my interviews with the government it was discussed all the way from the get go of the aftermath of the YH Fire.
When we were on top of the Weavers we saw Eric with this man. Nate Peck also talks about him. Figures 12 & 12a. “Mystery Man” –
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/08/18/Part-2-of-Who-Do-We-Continue-to-Distinguish-And-Read-About-as-the-Likely-Participants-in-the-Undeniable-Sesame-to-Shrine-Corridor-Fuel-Fire-Break-Possible-Firing-Operation
I am sorry but I was there. I watched Eric go to the other man. I took the photo. Some out there have taken my photo and made new camera details and metadata to fit their narratives- I was there and I have no agenda in this and I took the photo not you.
We even told John Dougherty on our hike with him in 2013 and he said his wife was good at pixeling-
so the new news being dished out is rubbish.
As for the “sniper” and violence part on social media I have LOOKED everywhere on IM and all of the search engines and came back zip but if any of you know where it was said that Snipers were to be at the opening of the state park to take out the families – that is a serious allegation and I do have an investigation going on for that comment and legally looking into it since it was tied in the comment thread with my photo they used as a organization not as an individual. I want it removed and they did remove the photo and then it was re-posted with another pic yet same types of verbiage. That is not healthy for the owner writing it out to the world so please name the person you are referring to in regards to so many comments.
There is no way to reverse this at this point so really either wait and see what is said and what comes from it or SPEAK UP now like Gary pleads and begs for…
but yeah some hints in that link…
Reply to Joy A Collura post on April 4, 2019 at 2:01 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474237
>>
>> I read your comment above is the link wtktt
>>
>> (there is a hint within that comment to what is coming out this year)
Everything in that almost-a-year-old comment is PUBLIC information.
It is no secret that there was a lot of ‘nepotism’ going on when it came to hiring for both the original Prescott “Crew 7” and the subsequently renamed “Granite Mountain Hotshots” organization.
I understand your feedback
yet the hint has zip to do with nepotism
nor the Prescott Way
and in my research it was not always that way-
I have interviewed some fine prior GMHS as well as Prescott Firefighters and Hotshots
and I will always be grateful they gave me the details I needed.
This is not an easy task to not just document the pre-GMHS and pre-Crew 7
or when Marty Cole came on the scene and his opinion of Eric and why and if it mattered.
My own instructor ( to become a FFT2 ) stated some stuff about Eric at the end of our classroom time awaiting to get the Award Ceremony
but I won’t air specifics because in recent notification of the social media debacle I not only saw our division of our class on that social media page (the page using my own photos tied to lies and negativity ) ( odd to see my division and my class on her page of all the classes that was there this year )
but I also saw the history of this page where he is named very close to this outfit and he was telling rookies stuff I don’t think he should have on that topic but he did say he was retiring so maybe it was something he needed to get out.
but I do this all to see exactly where it began if it was shared ‘it all began in some living room’ yet long time old fella friend of Duane’s told me different
so I always have to take stuff I hear and go fact check
but a lot of records both FOIA and Public I place them in but sometimes never even get an acknowledgement and always remember this fact-
many times I have been ‘behind their scenes’ they tried to get legal action towards me for asking for records to properly assess this with documents this fire and still to this day my records remain unpublished or sealed as a status. Why can’t another peak in and see what I asked for…right?
I really do not think any other person or eyewitness has been shown the disrespect to any fire fatality as much as me gathering the documents as the eyewitness of this fire,
I am the first one to admit I had not a clue what I was doing but at least I have been doing it and persevering ( and flawed and all – I keep at it ).
The moment I made my first inquiry along with so many firefighters that were there – we we have been treated wrongly and I want the families to get that from the get go certain people were told this was going to remain sealed.
That was why I have had to format it as I have to ensure it all and I mean all comes out.
I am sorry to you men and women who put so many years in with training and making this your world because I do not want to be that one to do this but I also cannot keep it sealed.
A lot of you that were there have come up to me and thanked me personally for doing this because they wish they could but they have families and they have lived the Prescott Way for way too long…some day once I format the paper you all one day will know there is many layers to the Prescott way.
This year’s scholarship 50/50 winner at the academy was Kayiden Archer.
If any of you are looking for a FFT2 rookie on your team let me know because Kayiden very much is gearing up to be out there THIS season.
Kayiden is a huge supporter to the GMHS and continues to support all the foundations tied to these men.
Kayiden knew one of the men.
I wanted to put this out there because Kayiden seem to gravitate to me at the academy and I through the week found myself challenging on the 10 and 18 so really it made for a solid week. Thank you Kayiden.
I shared with Kayiden to engage on here to share in this Fire World journey but you cannot be too sensitive to come to this blog…
Kayiden is having hard time finding all smooth leather 7d fire boots- any help for in store try ons versus online buying. Thanks.
Gooooo Kayiden! 🙂
I have been dreaming a lot about Elizabeth Nowicki-
Some day I hope to know where and how she fits in all this-
I remember her sharing and being so warm and helpful to so many in the after math of this and I would never know what a FOIA or Public Record was if it was not for her
I am sure Bill Boyd and so many are wishing I never learned the tool.
Before I head out with the kids-
and have a kid-filled fun day…
Keep in mind Kayiden’s need to find those boots- training starts soon! Still has to break them in-
I do not go on social media so asking you firefighters
and Woodsman is there one Fire Boot Brand that is better than another?
I did learn that the Boot Barn carries Fire Boots- cool to know.
Have a great week- heading out to Cali soon… (I know “going back to cali song is ringing in your head, huh) ( https://youtu.be/FdizL4on-Rc )
This is what is ringing in my head.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kPkDLkqYKeQ
Whoops, I fucked up. THIS is the one ringing in my head.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4
“That’s All Folks!”
**
** MARTY COLE: “ERIC HAD SOMETHING TO PROVE”
Reply to Gary Olson post on April 2, 2019 at 8:34 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> OK…jump one more. I think the zero sum game where every other
>> hotshot crew was a competitor and essentially an enemy camp, or
>> at least a hostile camp, was still very much alive and in play
>> on the day the Granite Mountain Crew died.
>>
>> That was in my opinion a significant contributing factor in their
>> destruction. Eric Marsh was driven to take unacceptable, foolish
>> and criminally reckless actions to prove his and his crew’s
>> detractors and doubters wrong.
>>
>> Somebody should be held accountable for that foolishness,
>> but I don’t know who to blame? Everyone? No one?
>>
>> The hotshot who drew the line with his Pulaski in the dirt road on
>> a fire and told the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew they weren’t worthy
>> enough to cross it? Everyone else who denied them entry into OUR HOUSE,
>> the house I helped build. I don’t know? Like so many other things
>> pertaining to this Shakespearian tragedy, I am conflicted.
Former “Crew 7” Chief Marty Cole was the one who first related that story to author ( and former hotshot ) Kyle Dickman, for his original September 17, 2013 ‘Outside Online’ article…
Outside Online
Article Title: 19: The True Story of the Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: September 17, 2013 – By Kyle Dickman
https://www.outsideonline.com/1926426/19-true-story-yarnell-hill-fire
From that article…
———————————————————————————————————
Many of those walls have since been torn down. But the tribalism still exists, and it’s strongest within the insular world of hotshots. Marty Cole was the superintendent of Granite Mountain from 2004 to 2005, when Eric first joined and they were trying to become a hotshot crew.
It was a humbling process. At the time, every one of the roughly 100 hotshot crews in the nation was funded by states or the feds—the Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, the Bureau of Indian Affairs—and many of them had decades of tradition. Granite Mountain, a startup outfit hosted by a small town in Arizona that most other hotshots had never heard of, wasn’t exactly well received.
The crew once showed up at a fire in Oregon in white ten-passenger vans. Real crews use buggies. When Granite Mountain went out to start work, a firefighter from another crew drew a line in the middle of the road with spray paint and wrote Don’t cross it.
“When I left, Eric had something to prove,” says Marty.
——————————————————————————————————-
Author Kyle Dickman then repeated the same story in his book…
From Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
———————————————————————————————————
Though the early hotshots were much more militarized and in vastly better condition than the civilian teams Forest Service rangers like Ed Pulaski had raised to battle violent blazes decades earlier, they still relied on only a few qualified firefighters to make decisions. The biggest difference between the new crews and the old militias came down to cultivated pride. The young hotshots believed they were the best firefighting force ever created, and that anybody who cared to claim the title needed to earn it first.
While Crew 7 were trying to become hotshots, during one shift on a blaze in Oregon, a firefighter from another crew grabbed a can of spray paint and drew a line in the middle of the road. Next to it he wrote, DON’T CROSS IT. Many firefighters simply refused to talk to the guys or eyed them up in the chow line. The Forest Service firefighters’ concern, whether justified or, much more likely, not, was that a municipal crew wouldn’t have their backs on the fire line. Marsh and his men were officially given a chance to prove themselves in 2007, when Crew 7 was made a hotshot training crew— one step beneath actual certification.
——————————————————————————————————–
Thank you once again for keeping the story straight, you more than anyone else know how important your work here is. I shoot from the hip and usually get close to the 10 ring, but you take very careful aim every time you shoot and almost always hit center mass right on the X.
There may not be any new dead horses to beat, (yet) but I am going to keep flogging the dead ones we have until somebody who matters starts doing the right thing…NWCG.
I was just confirming your recent post, and showing that there has never been any need for any of US to “guess” whether Marsh ran his crew with a chip on his shoulder and the need to “prove” something.
The people that KNEW him ( and worked with him ) have ALWAYS admitted that was the case.
How many OTHER crew bosses are still “out there” doing the same thing?
Hard to tell… but I hope it doesn’t take another disaster to find out.
The only real cure is prevention.
People like that should be free to take all the risks and gambles they want with their OWN lives… but NOT be allowed to ever be in a position to willy-nilly gamble with 19 ( or more ) other lives as well.
It;s just a job. Kick ash when you can…. fer sure… but the point is to GO HOME.
I know…thank you.
But you just happened to point out exactly what I was busy writing about at the same exact time…spooky. Train WLF that “Everybody Goes Home (alive and without serious injury) After Every Fire.” Instead if teaching them to say, “ Shit Happens.”
FWIW… the movie did not avoid this topic.
Matter of fact…if anyone pays attention to the actual PLOT of the movie… it does nothing but EMPHASIZE and CONFIRM this “Marsh had something to prove” thing.
Instead of the spray paint on the road, the movie OPENS with their alternative Hotshot-crewboss-thinks-all-type-2-crews-are-worthless-dumbass-monkeys moment and Marsh ( Brolin ) is told to “stay in the rear and mop up our shit”.
The rest of the plot is then basically BASED on that opening moment… and they portray Marsh as obsessed and driven to “prove something”. ( just as Marty Cole said he was ).
What the movie FAILED to do, of course, was show how that all probably did contribute to what happened in Yarnell.
They didn’t “connect the dots” their OWN plot had already drawn.
Their ( short ) drive-by treatment of the final Yarnell incident just stuck to the “big bad fire just came and got them” fairy tale.
No surprise, of course.
That is what most “ain’t it a shame” based movie plots do.
They just show what’s needed to make you feel sorry for everyone… but never offer full details.
Yeah…you’re right, I didn’t think it through because I thought the movie sucked, especially the romantic crap between Mrs. Lohman and Marsh, but I thought the scene with Steed and his kids were cute because I always called mine little stinkers too.
But they really did center the plot on Marsh being perversely driven as a psycho to prove not only himself but his crew while having a giant chip on his shoulder. They showed it coming to a head when he smashed up his office chair. So yeah…EVERYBODY knew Marsh was a ticking time bomb, even the idiots who made that stupid movie. What an odd coincidence, Tony Czak was also a ticking time bomb just like Gordon King.
I don’t remember if I told this story before or not, but the man who made me a hotshot crew boss only told me ONE thing, but I never forgot that one thing. I never knew what Richard (Allred) was thinking because his expression never changed his sad expression and he never raised his voice and he always spoke in a low monotone and never used curse words.
The first fire I took the crew out on as a their crew boss was just 12 miles down the road, and it was within in few hundred yards of the Mormon Lake Lodge on the Mormon Lake District, just off our district boundary.
It was only a few acres and we spent the night mopping it with some engine crews up after catching it the afternoon before. Richard was on the fire as the Fire Boss because it was so close to his district and the Mormon Lake District Office was actually in Flagstaff about 40 miles away and Richard was have been the fire command type officer on it.
Anyway…the next morning Richard walked up to me and told me, “I want you to bed your crew down here, pointing at the ground, and you can finish mopping the fire up tonight.”
I immediately gave him the standard WLF answer that translates into, “Aye, Aye, Sir,” which was, “Sounds Good.”
Richard just stood there staring at me with his large, sad, brown eyes and without raising his voice or changing his expressupion he said, “Your crew’s barracks with their cook, who is waiting to make them a hot breakfast is just 12 miles down the road and you think bedding them down here sounds good? That sounds like shit to me. Take care of your crew.” And then he turned around and walked away.
In that simple exchange, Richard told me that he expected to ALWAYS put my crew first even if it meant challenging his authority, which is something that never would have occurred doing to me without him ordering me to do so.
After that, I always knew that if Richard expected me to challenge his authority to put my crew first, I never had to worry about challenging everyone else. I always knew that the only thing I really had to worry about was taking care of my crew and bringing them home in one piece…more or less.
There was an always an automatic elite status that was bestowed on every U. S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew and Crew Boss that everyone recognized and no one ever questioned or challenged. The entire system was based on that most basic assumption. (except that MF Fire Boss and Line Boss from the Scott Fire who just decided they had to put me in my place, that one time: which was a freak anomaly.)
That was something Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots never had and ultimately played a role in their destruction.
I was automatically given the status, authority, and respect by simply showing up that Eric Marsh craved but was never able to attain. I hope that has changed for all other non U.S. Forest Service Hotshor Crews today?
Although I don’t want to lose sight of the fact that Richard didn’t know me from anyone else on the crew when he made me the crew boss. The man who really made me the crew boss from a practical standpoint was our departing crew boss who has decided to go to law school after the Hog Fire, Jeff (Denny) Denepont.
And right at this moment I am referring to;
1. Conducting wildfire disaster investigations by using the NTSB as a model rather than the Three Stooges.
2. Completely recreating the fire shelter training into a professional a fact based effort with as much emphasis placed on the limits of fire shelters as you do their capabilities. And stop LYING about how many WLF have been saved by them. Divide the numbers you use by at least 10 and then cut that number in half and minus another 50%.
3. Reach out to law enforcement trainers and incorporate how to deal with extreme stress in your WLF training. Use Granite Mountain (Caption Jesse Steed ?) as an example of how people go into Condition Black and their minds are so overwhelmed by the catastrophe they find suddenly find themselves in the middle of they revert to automatic learned muscle memory responses in dealing with the crisis by doing things like changing their call sign without realizing they have done so by reverting back to Granite Mountain 7 rather than identifying themselves as the Granite Mountain Hotshots, which they has been for years at that point. Law enforcement training is about 50 years ahead of where you are…stuck somewhere in the 1950’s.
4. Immediately…if not sooner, start training WLF to do simple calculations based on the concept of, “How Big Is Big Enough and use my contribution, “Because Size Does Matter.”
5. At least familiarize WLF with the physiological and mental changes they can expect to undergo under extreme stress that include tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and loss of fine motor skills, to name just a few.
6. Train your WLF to use a completely new mindset of winning instead of teaches them how to lose. Do what you can to make sure no WLF ever states again, “We aren’t going to make it!” Train them to “Finish The Fight” and that they will make it and believe, “We Will Make It!” Condition them to know they will have about another 30 seconds of life, even after they are already dead. They can accomplish a lot in 30 seconds.
And that’s just for starters you stupid fucks!
Whoops, I got carried away again didn’t I NWCG and US Forest Service? You don’t use the Three Stooges as a model for your investigations do you? That model would simply be based on incompetence. You aren’t incompetent are you? You are very clever liars, deceivers, criminals, conspirators, scam artists, confidence men and grifters. Thieves of the truth…aren’t you? And most importantly…killers of WLF in the future. You are very good at what you do….Mike Dudley.
I don’t want the US Forest Service to fix people like Mike Dudley or Shawna Legarza, they are hopelessly compromised. Retire them, wipe the skate clean, start over with some honest people who will do the right thing for WLF.
And just as a reminder, after Marsh killed his crew, no one who was an insider was surprised.
They all said things like, “I knew it was only a matter of time.” Everybody knew it was only a matter it time. Marsh was a tragedy looking for a place to happen for years and everybody knew it. But yet…they did nothing to stop it. Should we blame them? What is their moral liability? Nothing? Something? Everything?
Actually…I do remember RTS telling us that other hotshot crew bosses which implies him as well…did try to modify Marsh’s behavior with one on one peer counseling. Those efforts were obviously…inadequate.
Oh…and one more thing.
Being a hotshot crew boss was easy for me, being a hotshot was hard…but being a crew boss was easy. Even at 23, it was an easy job for the following reasons.
1. I had been raised right in the traditions of the U.S. Forest Service by Old School DFMO’s Ron Melcher (Prescott National Forest) Hub Harris and Richard Allred (Coconino National Forest) and Orlando Romero (Santa Fe National Forest). And at the Forest level, by men Steve Servis and Bill Buck (Coconino National Forest) and finally Les Buchanan and Ray Page (Santa Fe National Forest).
And of course all of those men had worked on many other National Forests in many other states for decades and they brought that wealth of knowledge, culture, spirit, history and TRADITION with them that helped me because I worked for them.
All I had to do was to try as hard as I could to imitate them. I often fell short in accomplishing that objective, but I never quit wanting to be the supervisors, managers, leaders, role models, wild land firefighters and men they were. And of course there were many others I met and worked with along the way, DFMO Tom Holly from the Globe Ranger District, Toronto National Forest jumps to the front of my memory.
And secondly, to become a good and effective hotshot crew boss, all I had to do was to emulate my crew bosses, Amos Coochyama and Jeff Denepont and try to be like them as best I could by following the example they had set based on a hard core hotshot ethos. Central to that culture was hard work, dedication, observing Safety First while agreessively taking the fight to the fire and loyalty to our crew, Ranger District and home Forest all while upholding the tradition of the U.S. Forest Service on a macro level.
In addition, I had the support and loyalty of my crew who believed in me. Not every crew member all of the time of course, some I had to remove from the crew and others had to be properly brought up to speed regarding how we did things downtown by the the senior crewmen and squad bosses or they removed themselves from our crew. But all anyone had to do to make it on our crew was to give it all they had when they were called upon to do so. We also took some long lunches, played some volleyball games, and went on some nice District orientation tours along the way. We knew how to live it up.
And finally…I had the proud tradition, history, and culture of the.entire U.S. Forest Service behind me and in particular more than 30 years of what it meant to be a U.S. Forest Service Hotshot which provided tye framework, structure and cornerstone upon which to build my crew.
All I had to do, was to do it like those who had come before me had done it and I was guaranteed of having a good crew who would uphold the three most important things to the U.S. Forest Service (as I like to write),
1. Tradition
2. Tradition
3. Tradition
Eric Marsh had none of that because of his failed and disastrous career with the U. S. Forest Service he rejected the things he had learned out of spite and pettiness. Marsh was lost from the very beginning as a hotshot crew boss with no one except for for men like Marty Cole and Darrell Willis to guide him.
Shame, shame, shame on the City Of Prescott for being so arrogant that they thought they could build a successful hotshot crew with those men leading their program. The crew was sound…their foundation was rotten and in the end, 19 WLF, which includes Eric Marsh paid a terrible price for their foolishness…IMHO.
Oh yeah..and Duane Steinbrink.
No Old School U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighters to emulate in that sorry trio.
And yes…I know there are other great Old School wild land firefighters out there who weren’t U.S. Forest Service and made the old fashioned way. But…I’m still very tribal. It’s just the way it is.
Marty Cole, Duane Steinbrink and Darrell Willis build a House Of Cards on a foundation of sand with a deeply flawed out-of-control crew boss who had never been in control. Marsh just careened from screw up to screw up. AND THEY KNEW IT! EVERYBODY KNEW IT! WHY DID THEY ACCEPT IT?
And I think I know the answer to that as well. It’s because they could control him. Marsh was out of options and had no where to go as a middle aged front line wild land firefighter. The structure side of their PFD house didn’t want him.
I mean let’s face it. There is only ONE RTS, am I right?
And of course on every hotshot crew there is a degree of hazing, not on the level of fraternities or apparently college bands, for some bizarre reason I fail to understand? But there is some as part of the indoctrination and cultureization of new crew members and other targets of opportunity. But not a lot…because tempers can flare with bad consequences in that closed and high stress environment. So…anyway, here are two examples of pranks that never got old.
Most of our long lunch breaks came after hard fires or long stretches without days off while stacking sticke in the middle of the forest for no apparent reason.
So sometimes when it came to to get back to work, if there was someone who was really sawing some logs in a deep sleep, everyone on the crew would quietly slip away, load up on the bus. And then we would start the engine and lay on the horn with everyone yelling, LOAD UP, LOAD UP, FIRE, FIRE, FIRE, LETS GO GO GO GO!
And then watch the target of the prank leap to their feet while trying to gather their things, oriient themselves, all while running for the bus like a drunken sailor on shore leave. We were a hoot!
Another old favorite was to chop the head off a rattlesnake we had come into contact with while working down drainages at night mopping up, especially on the Tonto National Forest.
Anyway, this one was done sometimes when there was a narrow place .lined with huge boulders which forced everyone who was working down the canyon into a choke point where they had to jump off a boulder to land on what was typically a sandy spot were sand had accumulated when water did run in what were normally dry creeks or rivers.
So…the prank was to coil up the headless rattler on the sand underneath the boulder like it was ready to strike. And then wait for the next person in line to come along, stand for a few seconds on top of the boulder and then jump down to the sand below.
At some point in that process after jumping, if the snake was placed in the right place, the dim light from their headlamp would eventually illuminate the coiled snake, sometimes literally between their feet. And then watch them try to propel themselves backwards, back up onto the boulder, sometimes while in mid air like they were in a cartoon. I’m telling you…that one never got old. Especially if they were overhead or from another hotshot crew.
And yes Joy, I know it isn’t right to kill or even disturb wildlife for fun and I never do while Jeeping or enjoying my National Forests and BLM Public Lands because they live there and we are just visiting.
But you know rattlers hunt at night and it was informal policy not to leave them alive for the next WLF to maybe find in the dark while mopping up desert fires. They were collateral damage.
And I should have written, “…stacking sticks in the middle of the forest for no apparent reason other than there weren’t any lines we needed to go stand in as hotshots.”
And for anyone who doesn’t fully understand the underlying humor with that line, here is our IM thread cartoon that explains them and why I am always disrespecting smokejumpers as a matter of principle. This cartoon never gets old either. 😂
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOvM2u8l64
In my book, I will also use descriptive words like, “pride, selflessness, camaraderie, espirit de corps, sense of purpose and belonging to something that was greater than ourselves,” to describe how we felt as U.S. Forest Service Hotshots and the beneficiaries of a long and proud history and tradition of what it meant to be a “hard core hotshot.”
All hotshot crew can claim the very same heritage, all hotshot crew originated from the Cradle Of Hotshot Civilization on the Cleveland and Angels National Forests in SoCal (R-5 and R-3 rivalries and tribalism aside for the moment).
“Angeles National Forest.”
Yeah but if you leave it alone than this wlf can drink their venom in hopes to get well.
Yuck! Like I say, you are way tougher than I am!
I don’t want to even live in a world where I can’t have my Purple Mattress and LA-Z-Boy Big and Talk Man Recliner. Take me home Sweet Jesus…just lift this veil of tears and take me home!
That would be “Tall Man” although on nights like this, “Talk Man” works also.
REPLY IN CAPS–
Gary Olson says
APRIL 2, 2019 AT 1:48 AM
Joy,
1. I hardly think almost six (6) years qualifies as expecting some answers NOW!
HUH- REALLY HISTORICALLY LET US LOOK WHEN I PLACED STUFF ON IM AND THEN GO SEE WHAT STILL HAS A CHANCE TO EXIST OR HAS BEEN CHANGED- I AM ON THE RIGHT PATH…
2. I haven’t “discovered” anything since I started participating on this blog. I have however, been made “aware” of too many things to list in this format by my participation here and all of those things I have detailed on this blog as we have moved along at our breakneck pace. And many of those things have altered my initial perception of almost everything about that catastrophic day on the YHF Disaster, and all of those alterered perceptions, conclusions and assumptions have also detailed on this thread.
QUESTION- ARE YOU OKAY WITH THE BOOKS OUT AND MOVIE?
3. I didn’t say RTS was taken to Messier 45 by aliens it be probed and impregnated with an alien baby, I said Rumor Control has been reporting that fact for weeks now. In addition, “a lot of people say” (to quote President Trump) the same things about RTS, but I don’t have any first hand knowledge about his alien baby, or if he is even still in contact with the father or not?
I HOPE IF HE DID HAVE AN ALIEN THAT HE LETS HIM GO TO NAU 😉
“HUH- REALLY HISTORICALLY LET US LOOK WHEN I PLACED STUFF ON IM AND THEN GO SEE WHAT STILL HAS A CHANCE TO EXIST OR HAS BEEN CHANGED- I AM ON THE RIGHT PATH…”
Well…this is more of the same that my brain 🧠 isn’t able to compute, but I guess that’s just the way it is.
“QUESTION- ARE YOU OKAY WITH THE BOOKS OUT AND MOVIE?”
No…I thought the movie was a waste of my money for the theatre ticket even with my senior citizen discount. I haven’t read any of the books because I depended on WTKTT’s book reviews and analysis and I was waiting for him to tell me there was one worth reading and that never happened.
I don’t have very much patience at this stage for bullshit in my life. Participating in blog and having some fun with it is my only indulgence in putting up with anything that irritates me because I believe in our end product. I think we have made a difference with the only record of the YHF Disaster that isn’t agenda driven.
Our efforts have been…messy, but pure of purpose and agenda free. The movie, and all of the books to date have been agenda driven (IMHO). The movie in particular was (to paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill) an agenda, wrapped in an agenda, inside an agenda. And none of the agendas were concerned with the truth or doing, “the right thing.”
And as far as the whole RTS and alien baby thing goes, I just pray he had a Caesarean section because…DAMN!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5OVdoTDuKT0
I’m sorry things haven’t worked out with your newly minted wild land firefighter creds. But you have to remember…I did write several years ago that they are a culture that eats their young. The trick is to make it off the beach and then you might have a chance…maybe? But…I doubt it. 🤕
And you have to remember…RTS and I aren’t old friends, we are old competitors. R-5 versus R-3, Arizona versus New Mexico, the U.S. Forest Service versus everybody else, the Tonto versus the Coconino. The right way to run a hotshot crew versus the way RTS did it.
We weren’t even comrades with the other hotshot crews on the Coconino. It was always run by the fire gods as a zero sum game. They thought they got more out of us by pitting us against each other than by teaching us to work together and respect each other.
And as far as my highly anticipated and acclaimed tome that is going to be the greatest book ever written about wild land firefighters goes, I am going to make it available to my hordes of fans as a free download.
No…really, you all have compensated me more than enough with the E-Ticket for Mr. Toads Wild Ride that you paid for because I saw the Elephant. I am trying to return some interest on the investment you made in me, it cost you…a lot of money, no really…it was a lot of money💰!
And you are still paying, so…thank you.
Oh…and one more thing. In the interest of full disclosure…my intentions for my book to be made available on line as a free download aren’t purely alturistic. No publishers would ever even consider publishing what I am writing…there is way to much civil liability. 😂
And I am not changing the names of either the pro or antagonists in my book to protect the GUILTY, and you know who you are.
Although I bet a lot of people have made the mistake of underestimating Joy…so I want to walk back what I wrote since I don’t want to make that mistake. I know Joy is tougher, smarter, way more determined and stubborn than I am, not to mention the fact she is just as wacky as I am. Or you know..entertaining and FUN!
So…if anyone with Joys negatives can make it…I’m sure she can. And by negatives…I am referring to her not being in her early twenties. WLF gets harder the older you get.
Of course RTS is the exception to this general rule as he is to so many other rules that govern the lives of most of us. So…who knows…who knows?
Correction,
Although I love all variants of the Bell Iroquois so much I really liked the scenes in the movie of the “slicks” flying the crew out to and back from the fire🔥
That sound…that distinctive WOP WOP WOP of approaching Hueys always sounded to me like…VICTORY!
Don’t be a pussy, (non gender specific) put on your earphones and crank up the volume to about a 9.9 and go for a ride down memory lane with me.
I mean…Norman Greenbaum and his one hit wonder, it just doesn’t get any better than this, Old School!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56Zs9BKHpP8
OK…jump one more. I think the zero sum game where every other hotshot crew was a competitor and essentially an enemy camp, or at least a hostile camp, was still very much alive and in play on the day the Granite Mountain Crew died.
That was in my opinion a significant contributing factor in their destruction. Eric Marsh was driven to take unacceptable, foolish and criminally reckless actions to prove his and his crew’s detractors and doubters wrong.
Somebody should be held accountable for that foolishness, but I don’t know who to blame? Everyone? No one?
The hotshot who drew the line with his Pulaski in the dirt road on a fire and told the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew they weren’t worthy enough to cross it? Everyone else who denied them entry into OUR HOUSE, the house I helped build. I don’t know? Like so many other things pertaining to this Shakespearian tragedy, I am conflicted.
And just for the record, I will tell you who should be assigned the blame for creating and benefiting from that toxic hotshot culture on the mighty Coconino.
The original Flagstaff Hotshot Crew Boss who created the first “Ludi Gladiatorium” and was the Chief Lanista on the Mighty Coconino that trained and then farmed out almost all other hotshot crew bosses to the other crews on the Forest…that asshole Van Bateman and his creator…Bill Buck.
Oh…and by the way. We marched to a different drum on the Long Valley Ranger District and the Happy Jack Hotshots, it was an Indian War Drum.
We were led by two very strong and independent District Fire Management Officers who told Buck he was welcome to visit our District and then fuck off.
DFMO Hub Harris and his successor, DFMO Richard Allred. DFMO Orlando Romero was cut from the same cloth. Old School DFMO’s. As was the only other DFMO I worked for, Ron Melcher. I was a very Fortunate Son.
Nope…I got carried away. The way other hotshot crew treated Granite Mountain is (IMHO) a contributing factor, not a significant factor in the deaths of the crew. Just trying to keep score as I move along.
If Van Bateman and Bill Buck would have picked the third hotshot crew boss to run the Happy Jack Hotshots, i never would have been the youngest hotshot crew boss in history. It would have been a Flagstaff Hotshot Assistant Crew Boss.
I actually have a copy of the nice letter that I eventually found by pursuing my Official Personal Folder (OPF in USFS colloquial speak) where Richard actually told Bill Buck, thanks, but no thanks, I got my boy right here on deck. And then he wrote, “If he doesn’t work out, you can send your Flagstaff Hotshot out here.”
Hahaha! Richard made sure I worked out! I was “Too Big To Fail” for his program. He knew where my loyalty laid.
you still playing your guitar Sonny?
https://youtu.be/XeHK7sh2Al8
https://youtu.be/9y2cs9us0e8
Testimony of Jim Norris (Granite Mountain Hot Shots Scott Norris’ Father)
So that “testimony” was just published YESTERDAY?
Interesting.
Poor guy. Regardless of the words coming out of his mouth… his body language and demeanor suggest he is still “tortured” by what happened to his son.
I recall the words of Marti Reed, here on this forum…
“The Yarnell Hill Fire never went out. It still keeps burning”..
Reply to Joy A Collura post on April 2, 2019 at 1:31 am
>> Joy Collura posted a link to a new song written about Yarnell…
>>
>> https://youtu.be/XeHK7sh2Al8
A song written as if it is Brendan Mcdonough talking.
Contains the line…
“I knew there was nothing I could do to save them”.
That actually remains a debatable topic.
At any time after he left his assigned lookout position, and was then “in town” and becoming fully aware that the fire was now “exceeding all expectations”… Brendan could have pressed transmit on his handheld and just made SURE that his crew KNEW that… and were fully AWARE of how fast the fire was actually moving.
He never did ( even though he still keeps testifying that he had direct communications with Marsh and Steed in the time the SAIT said they could not verify any ).
Also… unsolicited songwriting tip….
Be careful basing an entire song on the word “Gabions”.
Most people don’t have the faintest idea what those are.
Yes–I still have the Gibson that I bought from Brent’s yard sale-He was another one that died suddenly after the fire–he looked so good and our visits there were many and I did visit him in the hospital–he was young–about 45 Joy? Damn that killer retardant. I do sing that Green Back Dollar song now and again but I have mostly become a recluse –like John the Baptist in the wilderness or Moses headed up the mountain and returning with his head hair glowing–shit that burning bush radiation lights you up and my own hair is white and I do think TV’s blink when I walk by–Uranium mining has its quirks but the retardant is the fast killer. Is there anyone in Yarnell that was not hurt by that operation Agent Orange clone attempt?
I must admit you are one fine person to do what you are doing and I can give latitude since I know that what you are doing is for the best interests for all and never mind the six year wait, a few more months if appropriate to get to the right ears is fine with me. The loved ones deserve the closure and truth and we all want to know the facts of the matter. I am one to commend you for what you have done–I could have never accomplished it and I doubt few others wanted to know and if they did would not want to publish the raw truth,
Damn, we have had so many near escapes and here I am back in gear. I am breathing some better–able to get a couple of 20 foot telephone poles suspended for beams to the screened porch I am building. Sometimes I think the Irish Gods are lifting these things for me since I am so weak. Have some faith and you can move a moutain? How about just lifting a couple telephone poles or just uncovering the truth of what really happened at Yarnell? Those all take the type faith that moves mountains–old Jesus knew these things and I am certainly glad he passed these facts along for us mortals to use. Will we be immortals–maybe it will be moving mountains or even planets.
Yes the alien thing–it is around and too many people of integrity have verified it. There are plenty of nuts as well wanting to ride the waves of attention–yet it is known statistically that there has to be advanced life beyond our own just by the sheer numbers in the universe of stars and planets. People make jokes of it because it has been connected to the crazies. Yet they read a Bible that describes spacecraft similar to what many have described as seeing. Yet Joy and I have also seen some phenomenon–some she has actual photos of that defy rational explanation. People can be confused, but photos do not lie–the thing is there unless someone can doctor the photo=–except I was there when Joy took the photos and we reviewed them immediately after they were taken. Same as the video of the drip torching–it happened, we saw it, but in that case someone decided the public should not be looking at that procedure.
So I took time out for laying the floor–fried some sweet potatoe in olive oil==I cook simple but it is good–especially if you wait until you are damn hungry. Got my solar panels ordered and they will go up–3270 watts of power which next month I will add another 3270 watts for a good enough power supply in my case–God be willing and the creek does not rise and my other dogs don’t shoot me in the back–something I have to mull over how that was done.
https://youtu.be/dvB_H-s4UNk
for you Sonny…you will get a kick out of it
Yarnell Fire District
At the start of the video, Jeff Shearer says he is the “Fire Chief” for the
Yarnell Fire District… and Ben Palm is now just the “Assistant Chief”.
When did that happen?
WHAT happened to cause Ben Palm to ‘step down’… but still be ‘hanging around’?
The Yarnell Fire District web pages and social media pages are still listing
Ben Palm as the Yarnell “Fire Chief”.
Followup…
Scratch the question above about WHEN.
In the same video… former Yarnell FD Captain Jeff Shearer says he became the “Chief” on January 7 of this year ( 2019 ).
That was almost 3 months ago… but as I noted above… all the PUBLIC facing web pages and social media for Yarnell Fire District is still just listing “Ben Palm” as the “Fire Chief”.
Do you know what went down back in January?
I have asked for the Public Records on that Wtktt and seems they have to RUN IT THROUGH THEIR LEGAL TEAM so months pass but the video stated the start of this year but it is rumored Chief Ben Palm was still tied to the Dept as Asst Chief and still no public records yet
Only time will tell but let you know that when I know it
I did learn though Jason Lohman was tied to Yarnell but Denise Roggio said Tuesday, March 26, 2019 9:39 AM he was no longer there and a local man’s son said Jason helped him with his tire in Jerome so looks like he is a FF over there now.
This is their exact quotes:
We apologize for any inconvenience, but we are working as
efficiently as possible.
Jason Lohman is no longer with the department, nor did he have a red
card.
Chief Shearer says he is working on other request information,
however 2018 Red Cards and a Roster are available for pick up in the office..
02/13/2019: As you know, we are in a huge
transition right now. Chief Shearer is researching the legal
requirements of your request.
He asked me to send you a copy of our Current Roster, and know that we
are working on the rest.
It will take some time – thanks for your patience.
Also now that I am a FF – I still am having hard time to get on the staff rides- go figure.
The 2-13-19 roster did hve Jason on there.
https://youtu.be/HdqBEQrwBxE
another video for you to see Sonny
watch it all please
https://wechsleriqtest.com/short-iq-test/
SHORT QUIZ FOR YA SONNY- I DOUBT YOU ARE 75
MAYBE YEARS OLD
HEE HEE
di·a·tribe
/ˈdīəˌtrīb/
noun
a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something.
————————————————–
No Sonny
No diatribe
nothing bitter….
Just assertive
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-475876
Charlie says
DECEMBER 18, 2018 AT 1:14 AM
So the new Year is soon to be here. The FS and others will come out with the truth and nothing but the truth in the new Year– (April 1, 2019). The next year has 20–the number in the crew and 19 the number that died. Something will give in this coming year. (emphasis added)
——————————————————
Sonny did predict more information on 4-1-19 back then to surface and because God is speaking to Gary then let me share some information being it is April 1st, 2019 …
Fast forward almost 6 years we are meant to or expected to nod our head and move on. The hikers were supposed to fade into the injured crowd, say thank you to the nice firefighters and move on, like it never happened. They think I am doing some popularity contest in the fire world when in reality I have already started to do the right thing – how about you reading this – have you done it right because once it goes live to the world – will you be at ease when the news shares the spur roads and the actual folks who were there. Are you Willis ready to share more content and footage? How about after all these years Duane – can you take the time and fill in some swiss cheese areas or anyone you know? The seal has been broken men.
How many out there reading this was asked to do the same after the Yarnell Hill Fire?
As an Arizonan – how many out there faced what I am facing?
As a Firefighter, say nothing, do nothing and accept a hero story from the investigation group and no one did a thing wrong.
I was looking forward to seeing Brad Mayhew soon- I have some very good questions for him when he speaks publicly yet if RTS is where you hear he is Gary- then we are all in trouble.
Will RTS be able to really talk real after such an experience of being probed? Sonny may know that answer – he has met a few – maybe a few too many –
Let me see if I can give Mr. Brad Mayhew some heads up stuff I would like for him to address to me since he said let’s take a hike and meet up after the Shelter Island conference later in the Spring 2018
that was last Spring
to then the buddy buddy moment or what was that moment where Brad speaks as he did to Holly Neill and John MacLean then they were all 3 cozied eating together-
oh by the way – no hike or call or email ever happened –
yet I strongly feel I am owed as the eyewitness of this tragedy this:
when you got a copy Brad of how to do an serious accident incident report, – it has a certain format – did you ever receive such a copy?
Did you read in it who the key people were to be in charge of what things?
So if you were to be the lead investigator…right?..
and the publication comes out and you are not there but you are in many FOIAs and public records and talking with firefighters…???
It is the most key position so why not be in the publications – you did cover human factors, right?
Did you know the true definition of your position? If you were in charge (term not defined) why were you not mentioned – to me that is not following the SAIR guidelines. Yet it appears a lot of that was going on.
You can huff and puff to Neill and MacLean- if RTS ever returns from “outer space” and I show up at the conference I will not say a peep- you know what I want here.
I leave it in your lap.
Explain.
Gary, a local’s question this past week I am carrying into your lap:
I have 2 questions, has your hypothesis about the fire ever changed from when you started your investigation? And have you ever made discoveries you didn’t expect? In other words have you found only what you looked for or have you discovered new things that you didn’t look for?
Willis is a good man not because Holly told me so in November 2013…
a hero in a sense to my inner child.
He is not a hero to my almost 47 year old “warrior of truth” self that I currently walk around in
Duane is a good man.
A man who knows loss and losses –
a role model for so many of us –
until we knew more of the details than I learned to feel at first sorry
but then deeply Gary tells about God wants me to share more…
The moment people questioned this industry was the moment you saw the depth of ostracizing and doors slammed on people – that is wrong.
The men went downhill Gary and indirect but not all were together at that point.
Until the day I die if Shumate wants to keep doing the wrong thing than that is on him and he will see God some day and in some way.
A fire a short squad of type 2 firefighters or even 2 firefighters with a shovel and pulaski could’ve put out in one shift eventually decimated our community, incinerated 19 human beings and it is slowly killing people I love in my community.
Sonny, Jim Nagel died recently (the ham radio guy we led to Holly Neill) and Bill Buck and Roberta Era…they all lived in the area where a huge sluury drop was dumped…
Too many died this year…too many. Come this May when they do their 5k races in Yarnell…might as well make it a new memorial kind of race.
Someone I respected dearly and alot of you knew from me writing about him on here –
Pete Masiel –
I do think there should be a formal investigation of the vehicle accident he was in that killed him
because he was key in alot of this to helping –
(thank the Good Lord I was led to more than just him)
he was in a sense the key to the castle
but so am I, Gary
Said with firmness and confidence
Why else would a forest service man want to be around silly old me –
unless they probed him sooner than you thought –
maybe that has been ongoing…I have no answer because in reality all the creds won’t matter – my integrity does.
There is not one person from my history I would be afraid would say something because I have been a kind soul through life who I publicly shares my flaws-
Sonny too.
We have been real and we stayed with your industry with no agendas.
and I have already set everything in action in case what happened to Pete happens to me when I am the passenger in someone’s vehicle-
I do hope you all investigate it
because I am a passenger with VERY SAFE drivers.
I hope the news of Pete Masiel shook everyone up as it has to my life
and why I choose the legal system and lawyers and my own blog where it is my stuff to be accountable not John Dougherty/InvestigativeMEDIA
and yes it is out already the news where it needs to be in case I vanish or some freak thing happens…
this is real time life, Gary…
no joke…
real…
I stand by what I write on my blog even if one does not get it
because they do not know all I know but in time they will…
I have seem time and time again what I say on IM be shifted behind the scenes and I am focused ONLY to 20 minutes before A/G, Gary…
So let’s get the wheels rolling and stay the course
keep the faith Gary
I know it is hard for you to be patient…
I know pretty much the entire weekend and John MacLean is right in some fashion- we only focus to Sunday because of the tragedy but much is to be said about Friday and Saturday…and those days are coming out too.
Gary, you pick on the old man-RTS- yet he is a good man, friend and mentor to so many peoples lives, A true confusion to mine. Indeed.
So to place me in some Mensa Chapter dealio alongside him — nah just been to academies and conferences with him and a Creek meeting—
and I admit I definitely am not a smartie panties but I remember hanging out with a lady who belonged to a symphony and she had me tested (IQ) and it was over 130 and she felt I was a genius- I wish I could re-take the test nowadays with all this rattlesnake venom in me…oh and bushmaster venom….
Hey, RTS- what did you test? Maybe Gary is right – we can join a chapter after all 😉
You know as Sonny always said life is too short
I will never comprehend why “housewife hiker” was not ok as I am the eyewitness in this by RTS but that’s him…he has his own set of life perceptions-
but hell I have learned a lot of terminology to learn the system really needs help and leaders need to go and glad some retired.
Jay Kurth is a fine example of a man who retired at just the right moment or was it- would have been nicer if it was after DC in my opinion…— oh wait maybe it was Curtis Heaton who retired…maybe Jay is gonna be there for all this…hope so 🙂
Gary just as you are- a good man…
Anyone who has engaged on this site has been labelled some negative word but in real time we know you are not just doing your job
but you want it out asap…I get that
but it is all set to roll- I tell you as I knew it what my stuff was.on IM as tool for Joy not news to the world so that I could come back and CTRL F and key in words to find exact date I learned something
I am not social media blogger gal nor care to be
just tools to get or give data
..
I am important Gary
and believe it or not
I am appreciated-
maybe not by your likes or maybe I am by your likes- shit, who knows…and since you carry no Christmas Card Roster…who really cares
.in this journey – I tried to contact Musser to do a post on his dad because I want the world to see Musser is the son of old style CDF..-.his dad was long time CDF …aka “Smokie” and no, not Smokie Bear
I really would like to do that post with Musser’s involvement and fact check yet I have enough people over time that their account is fine but what an excellent post to do one on his dad and the old days of CDF to how it has changed and how it made Musser the man he is today…
I know many want to move forward on not sharing specifics on YH Fire yet I have to do the right thing and I am sorry if it hurts some folks but there is some folks that never been the same since that fire so doing it for them.
I encourage all that know Musser
let him know to reach me
let’s make a kick ass post on his dad
An old school versus this new school firefighter post for my blog – I think it would be the right spot versus the news to share Musser’s story…
I have spent alot of time with CALFire and some CDF men and I would like to also post about that entity and how the changes have become dangerous and too much protection of the agency versus telling the truth but maybe it has always been that with them..
Some think I am irrelevant to the ongoing task of finding out more about what really
happened in Yarnell for that entire weekend in 2013 that I eye witnessed with Tex Gilligan (Sonny) .yet I think one really cool factor- I have documented this very well includes my health journey and Sonny’s and yet we are still here with you all persevering . I have to address some significant high levels of concern – asymmetry, intensity, distribution, significant vascular patterns and temp. differences etc. so I have been under supervision consuming three times a day timber rattlesnake and bushmaster venom. So yeah keep that in mind. Sonny is not so sure drinking rattlesnake venom is something he would do but if I am immune to the horseshit bs you dish out Gary then for sure I can drink venom.
“a whole lotta said…but nothing to walk away from it…”
GOOOOOOO KAYIDEN! 🙂
or was there?
Quite a diatribe Joy–venting some feelings and a good catharsis. I had to smile all the way through since I know you so well. That snake venom is coming out a bit and methinks rightfully so.
We can understand why people do not necessarily want the true version of what happened in Yarnell–especially those that have made up their own version of things and have attempted to make the culprits in the death of their crew look like heroes exemplary. That though sacrifices future wild land fire fighter safety and feeds a line to the public who funds these escapades.
I doubt 130 is right on your IQ–I would think more like 160 because generally the IQ tests are only approximate. They give an idea of your intelligence and 130 would be high but it does not tell the whole story–something I would know having been associated with you so many years.
I think my IQ is down to about 75–that retardant has retarded me. But it has done some horrible things to others as you keep listing deaths of people you know and some I knew. It had done some horrible things to people’s health and well being, albeit most of them do not realise it.
The sick and death toll you have kept track of has spoken loudly of the dangers of that polluting agent orange chemical soup that was so profusely spread upon the town of Yarnell and Glen Isla. It is another poison as deadly in time as the rattlesnake venom you are taking.
I would like to say that perhaps small doses and you would become immune to it such as your snake venom. I am certainly suspect of taking even small doses of snake venom–something I have not studied or tried. But with the retardant, I am a person who has suffered right along with the other guinea pigs of Yarnell. Thanks to you, John Daugherty and others that get out information about the pollutants in the environment. People need to become aware of the dangers and when the right folks understand, then there is hope for a change.
I do not need to remind you that ammonia is a lung killer and lung cells once destroyed by the ammonium never rejuvenate. It make take years for the ammonium to react on young people, but elderly with immune systems and lungs already taxed, it becomes an acute problem.
In my own case I am there on the edge of the death fence and this all came to me after the Yarnell fire. This has been true for most of the Yarnell people–there is an epidemic of sickness and death there after the massive retardant dumps in 2013 and 2015. Even fallout radiation has not been so quick to kill as the retardant dumps. So, yes Joy, you named only a few of those that are subjects of its curse.
Hopefully all the sickness and deaths as a result of the retardant dumps will not be in vain. There is a change someone will begin to look at this problem in an honest manner.
It is said no long time studies of the effects of retardant upon the human population has been made. Well at Yarnell you do not need a long time study–the facts of the sickness and deaths are there.
So once the truth comes out you will see that the pitiful $15 an hour wage the wild land fire fighter earns is well below what he should be earning. Miners on contract these days make $50 an hour or more if they are good men. That in my mind would be a fair wage for a grunt waving a Pulaski and breathing the smoke off of retardant dumps. He is not only getting a breath of fresh ammonia but he is getting a mix of chemicals including cyanide gas and whatever else the greedy bastards that hide the chemicals under trade secret laws. If I knew what they were you would know, but only a doctor can find out, yet he can not tell or he will be up for legal problems.
These are my opinions–you are entitled to your own and also entitled to continue in ignorance if that is your pleasure. Ignorance might be bliss but it might also be the death of you.
I am sure most here will accept me for who I am, and I thank you in advance for your understanding! For everyone else, I would certainly appreciate your support on my journey. For those who can’t or won’t, I will not hold it against you, and wish you well in life! I have zero hate for anyone but I will challenge and call out when I know behind the scenes.and yes the truth does involve local/state/federal peoples and they are being brought out this year…they had their chances…too many are affected by their story being hidden. So for the mom supporting the recent social media…yes your son’s story is coming out. Time for some to get the proper mental health help…I have given all the heads ups.
We have kept the topic alive about the Shrine–WTKTT has mentioned how Trueheart Brown’s exclamation about his worries that some of those at the Shine area were likely to burn themselves out tells me that the video we saw was supported as a fact and not some figment of my imagination.
Something came to mind–Joy has a photographic memory and would remember the faces and people she saw in the video–so if she sees them in one of her travels she will know who they are. Maybe she already has seen them–something I had to mull over since they have names and someone knows who they are. Now all they need to do is come clean and let us know the actual facts about the burn. I saw it, Joy saw it, Norb saw it and several others saw that video–there was a burn and I know that video was proof yet redacted.
It came to mind once I looked at Joy’s site and saw those two smoke columns–one at the Shrine and one beyond a good mile or so that was the Harper Canyon fire headed towards Peeples Valley–something we had witnessed before ascending to top out the Weavers.
Joy,
1. I hardly think almost six (6) years qualifies as expecting some answers NOW!
2. I haven’t “discovered” anything since I started participating on this blog. I have however, been made “aware” of too many things to list in this format by my participation here and all of those things I have detailed on this blog as we have moved along at our breakneck pace. And many of those things have altered my initial perception of almost everything about that catastrophic day on the YHF Disaster, and all of those alterered perceptions, conclusions and assumptions have also detailed on this thread.
3. I didn’t say RTS was taken to Messier 45 by aliens it be probed and impregnated with an alien baby, I said Rumor Control has been reporting that fact for weeks now. In addition, “a lot of people say” (to quote President Trump) the same things about RTS, but I don’t have any first hand knowledge about his alien baby, or if he is even still in contact with the father or not?
Joy,
After giving it some more thought, I believe the operative word for my participation here is, “.learned.”
And the ONE thing I learned that is more important than any other is…the NWCG trained the Granite Mountain Hotshots to die by overselling and extolling the capabilities and virtues of fire shelters without balancing that training out by training them in the limitations and shortcomings of fire shelters.
How do I know I am right? I know I am right because one of the best wild land firefighting hotshot crews in the nation laid down to be burned alive in an area about the size of a three car garage when they needed as much as 16.5 acres to survive death and serious injuries. That’s how I know I’m right.
That was an April Fool–yet maybe not. Thinking of the sadness in all this how those young men were sacrificed because of the errors and hubris of the fire gods who seem so aloof and perched upon their pedestals of paper machete while the fire is consuming near by. The truth will hurt quite a number of them and deflate the ego trips–those taking in accolades for what was done at Yarnell that killed the GMHS crew should be hanging their heads in shame. The game is up, the facts are out and they are not pretty. Yet the only silver lining is that truth prevails to help those that denied it to understand the folly of the cover up of such a horrendous disaster of the mass killing of the GMHS crew. Truth will save future lives and bring closure to some of those who are left with the whys in their minds as to the reason for the loss of their loved ones. I know that feeling and I have never gotten real closure on my son’s death–a young man with a great future yet snuffed out. God had nothing to do with these deaths–Jesus is a life giver, never a life taker yet the devil and his minions are fast at work to hide the life giving truth that we must all abide with to gain peace.
How many of us have failed to do our jobs properly at times and when young lives are at stake then how of utmost importance it is to follow and observe the proper manner to insure the safety of those young ones. I know in my children’s cases I was ever protective to see them safe and to continue their lives as best they could. Those young men were the children of their bosses but they were failed –their lives sacrificed to motives only really known to the men that failed them. Certainly those young men deserved the honours given to them but they also deserved the truth as to the real reasons for their deaths. Likewise the parents, the siblings, the friends and loved ones and the public deserve the truth.
It reminds me of the couple whose Marine son was killed in action. He was awarded accolades and they were told he was killed in action by the enemy and given Honorable awards for his service. But they for some reason did not believe the story and they found out by investigation that he was shot by friendly fire if there can be such a thing. They returned the honours because they were based upon a lie. So in this world there are Honorable people who rather have the truth than have their son’s story based upon a lie.
We see the same at Yarnell–to much based upon falsehoods. Too many smucks involved in the coverup of all the facts, yet the very ones that are working at revealing what happened are being dismissed as the smucks. Some, especially those guilty of the coverup and hiding of facts they know, are doing every thing possible to keep a lid on the truth.
Joy has said she has the facts that many will not want to hear and she is soon to reveal them. Perhaps she has reason to suffer some paranoia so she has those facts where if something were to happen to her then they will be revealed anyway. I do not have the facts–I do know there was a burn but I do not know the names of those that were drip torching at the Shrine. I do know that the burning was before the men died and I also know how quickly a burn at the Shrine would ascend to where the men were. I have no idea whether the men that were burning knew about the location of the GMHS crew and I think they did not. But I also know an 11 mph fire as Willis suggested it was moving would go from the Shrine to the Helms in less than 6 minutes. I think the 11 mph figure was just like the rest of the data put forth–short of how fast that fire was moving and likely by at least a factor of 2 and maybe even three. A 40-50 mph wind moves fire amazingly fast, especially in dense dead and dehydrated vegetation such as we saw with Yarnell 2013 under a fire watch of extreme danger–even declared so with written documents that were also redacted from the Forest information site.
So you can call the bosses heroes, you can say God had his hand in this and you can make up anything you would like but I think be there a devil he would be the culprit whispering in so many ears.
I do not believe you will have to hold your breath for very long now==April fools day has passed.
**
** 27 WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS KILLED ALL AT ONCE ( IN CHINA )
Details are still coming in… but ( perhaps? ) a new candidate to replace the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire as “The Greatest Tactical Blunder in Wildland Firefighting History’?
Similar circumstances.
May they all Rest In Peace.
The New York Times
Article Title: 30 Die Fighting Forest Fire in China
Published: April 1, 2019 – By Steven Lee Myers
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/world/asia/china-fire-sichuan.html
From the article…
————————————————————————————-
BEIJING — A forest fire in southwestern China turned deadly over the weekend when winds shifted unexpectedly, trapping firefighters and local officials in a maelstrom. The bodies of 30 people who could not escape were found on Monday, officials announced, even as the fire continued to burn out of control.
Of those reported killed, 27 were firefighters and three were local officials, according to reports in state media, which were limited and contradictory at times. There were no immediate reports about the cause of the fire, nor its size.
Among those who died were the chief of a regional forestry bureau in Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture in Sichuan Province, and his deputy, state media reported. The officials had traveled to the scene of the fire, which broke out on Saturday in a remote location at altitudes nearing 13,000 feet, and had not been heard from since.
The tragedy could focus new attention on the training and equipment of China’s firefighters. The main service was transferred in 2018 from the People’s Armed Police to the Ministry of Emergency Management. Some firefighters viewed the reorganization as representing a potential loss of prestige and benefits.
“The advancement of technology in recent years should have provided them with better safety guarantees than before,” the official China Daily wrote on Monday evening, referring to the latest fire and the deadly blaze in 2015. “But the two fires in Tianjin and Sichuan have exposed that there is still a long way for China to go to modernize its firefighting system.”
————————————————————————————-
WTKTT, Thanks for posting this article on the devastating China wildfire.
I recently came across these articles on the late-1800s and early-1900s wildfires in the Northeastern US like the Great Chicago Fire and the Peshtigo Fire that the authors claim were caused by meteor shower fragments.
Source:
THUNDERBOLTS.INFO EXECUTIVE EDITORS: David Talbott, Wallace Thornhill MANAGING EDITOR: Michael Armstrong CONTRIBUTING EDITORS: Dwardu Cardona, Ev Cochrane, C.J. Ransom, Don Scott, Rens van der Sluijs, Ian Tresman WEBMASTER: Michael Armstrong Copyright 2006: thunderbolts.info
“The Comet and the Chicago Fire For nearly one and a half centuries, the cause of the most notorious fire in U.S. history has been a source of “heated” controversy. Some researchers suggest that a disintegrating comet ignited the blaze. But the electrical theorists say that evidence most often ignored offers the best clues. “With the heat increased the wind, which came howling across the prairie, until at last there arose a perfect hurricane. Mighty flakes of fire, hot cinders, black, stifling smoke, were driven fiercely at the people, and amid the terrible excitement hundreds of them had their very clothes burned off their backs, as they stood there watching with tearful eyes the going down of so many houses”. — James Goodsell’s History of the Great Chicago Fire, October 8, 9, and 10, Published 1871 by J.H. and C.M. Goodsell.”
“Sunday evening, October 8, 1871 marked the beginning of one of the most devastating fires in U.S. history. Legend has it that “The Great Chicago Fire” resulted from an agitated cow kicking over a lantern in “Mrs O’Leary’s barn”. The dry leaves and parched wood of Illinois in early autumn were the perfect kindling for a wildfire, and the fire spread with extraordinary rapidity, consuming homes and buildings, leaping from rooftop to rooftop with the speed of a locomotive. Between October 8 and 10, an estimated 350 people perished. The fire destroyed the homes of up to one-third of the city’s population, about 1,600 stores, 60 factories, and 28 public buildings. Four square miles of the city burned to the ground. Contrary to popular folklore, the Chicago fire is not the worst in U.S. history. It was not even the worst to occur on October 8 that year. The same evening—in fact, at the same time, about 9:30 —a fierce wildfire struck in Peshtigo, Wisconsin, over 200 miles to the north of Chicago, destroying the town and a dozen other villages. Estimates of those killed range upward from 1200 to 2500 in a single night. It was not the Chicago fire but the simultaneous “Peshtigo Fire” that was the deadliest in U.S. history. And there is more. On the same evening, across Lake Michigan, another fire also wreaked havoc. Though smaller fires had been burning for some time—not unusual under the reported conditions—the most intense outburst appears to have erupted simultaneously with the Chicago and Peshtigo fires. The blaze is said to have then burned for over a month, consuming over 2,000,000 acres and killing at least 200. Concerning the Michigan outburst, it is reported that numerous fires endangered towns across the state. The city of Holland was destroyed by fire and in Lansing flames threatened the agricultural college. In Thumb, farmers fled an inferno that some newspapers dubbed, “The Fiery Fiend.” Reports say that fires threatened Muskegon, South Haven, Grand Rapids, Wayland, reaching the outskirts of Big Rapids. A steamship passing the Manitou Islands reported they were on fire. ”
Feb 07, 2006
The Chicago Fire (2)
Where was Comet Biela?
https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060207biela.htm
Feb 09, 2006
The Chicago Fire (3)
Human Testimony Reconsidered
“All investigators of the Chicago fire and its devastating regional counterparts rely on human testimony. But how should we view such testimony when it suggests things that are not currently believed? Good science will not ignore witnesses when, in unison, they suggest new lines of investigation.”
https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060209chicagofire.htm
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 1, 2019 at 9:43 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, Thanks for posting this article on the devastating China wildfire.
UPDATE
The fire that killed them all was fully contained today.
No more details ( yet ) on how it actually happened other than the initial “sudden wind change” report(s).
SFGATE ( San Francisco )
Firefighters contain fire in China’s mountains where 30 died
Updated 9:37 pm PDT, Monday, April 1, 2019
https://www.sfgate.com/news/world/article/Firefighters-contain-fire-in-China-s-mountains-13733884.php
From the article…
————————————————————————————
BEIJING (AP) — Firefighters on Tuesday had contained a blaze high in the rugged forested mountains of western China that claimed the lives of 30 of their colleagues, in one of the worst disasters for the emergency services in recent years.
State media say open flames had been extinguished and only a few areas continued to emit smoke with no further threat of the fire spreading.
Recommended Video
The bodies of the dead firefighters were brought to the town of Xichang in Sichuan province, while three helicopters had brought in reinforcements to extinguish the blaze.
Changing winds Sunday apparently trapped the 27 firefighters and three helpers who were battling the blaze in a remote area at an altitude of 3,800 meters (12,500 feet), according to the Ministry of Emergency Management. Despite attempts at a rescue, all 30 were confirmed dead on Monday afternoon.
Most of the dead were in their 20s, although at least two were teenagers, according to state media reports. One had recently married.
————————————————————————————
Incredibly tragic.
Newest post on http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com website
(https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/blog)
“What dangers lie within thin their claims of invented “truth(s)” of what occurred on June 30, 2013, that were created and proselytized by those little nagging mosquitoes of our lives?”
Be sure to follow WTKTT link to his analysis and breakdown of the McDonough Memphis spew
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on March 27, 2019 at 9:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Be sure to follow WTKTT link to his analysis and breakdown
>> of the McDonough Memphis spew
That “Reply” to Rocksteady down below…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-477633
…just details SOME of the “low hanging fruit” in Brendan’s recent Memphis on-camera “retelling” of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
What is NOT mentioned in that list of his new exaggerations, fibs and outright lies is, of course, the BIG LIE that he is now including in his “new story”.
And that has to do with the overall reason he seems to want his listeners to believe about why his crew died on June 30, 2013.
According to Brendan’s “new” story… the “listener” is supposed to now believe it was simply because they were given bad information.
In a nutshell.. Brendan presented it like this in his recent “Memphis” TV interview…
1. The FIRST weather alert said there would be 50-60 mile-per-hour winds and a complete reversal of the fire… in about TWO HOURS.
NOTE: That is,of course, NOT what the first weather alert said… but I’m talking now about simply what Brendan is SAYING and wanting his “listeners” to believe.
2. The SECOND weather alert came about ONE HOUR later… and now said the same thing, but that it was still “on schedule” as per the first alert and would now arrive in ONE HOUR.
3. His ‘crew’ thought they had that ONE HOUR to do whatever ( like move to town )… but then what was supposed to happen in ONE HOUR actually happened in just FIFTEEN MINUTES.
So it was all just ‘bad information’ being given to his crew over the radio.
No mention of the fact that his “crew” had the BEST view of the fire and what it was doing just short of actually being up in an airplane that day.
No mention of them ( apparently ) not clearly communicating their strategic objectives AND their tactical route decisions.
No mention of them not posting a lookout, even when they KNEW they were going to lose sight of the fire by dropping into a blind box canyon filled with explosive fuel.
Nope.
Just “they were told things that turned out to be wrong”.
That’s NOW the way Brendan is just “summing up” what happened.
I think FBAN Byron Kimball would be the most offended by this “new” summary being told by Brendan.
HE was doing his job that day… and doing it well.
Thanks for the additional clarification WTKTT.
Here are several “why” questions for you Gary to help you understand
This is one of my favorite quotes from Joy’s website of the most recent http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations..com post:
“Why would people loudly and publicly proclaim themselves as victims? Perhaps a better question, based upon the level of secondary gain, attention, protection and support received by these people, is why wouldn’t they? With all of the attention on the issue, why are we surprised when people are exaggerating, using, or downright lying, about victimization? Of course, when we attach benefits to identification as a victim, we will hear from more victims, both real and exaggerated.”
( Psychology Today – The Culture of Victimhood -Hoaxes, Trigger Warnings and Trauma-Informed care. Posted Jun 28, 2014 )
Yes indeed, I allege that McDo-not / McDid-not is riding the self-imposed victim train for all it’s worth.
No way would he agree to voluntarily offer the truth about what occurred … and no way would he agree to be deposed under oath several times …
And yet, he’ll benefit financially by writing a book and profit from that and profit from the numerous and ongoing public speaking engagements on the book and now his latest endeavors.
WHEN will he open up and tell us the truth about his so-called “Brothers.?”
I allege that I here are the very same “Brothers” you dishonor and do a disservice to as well as all current or future WFs and FFs that deserve the truth. And we may as well include the families, friends, and loved ones of the GMHS “Brothers” as well as the American and international public that deserves to know.
And all of this has absolutely nothing to do with a storm being the cause.
It comes from the GMHS attitude that a third year Crewmember has that Fire Order #10 is “hillbilly and “old” and that he felt they were “a lot smarter” than that.
And it comes from the third year Crewmember attitude and actions to consider deploying a fire shelter in a chosen deployment zone near the Old Grader site rather than hike up to the nearby “good black” within several hundred yards of lookout shade …
No high-dollar fees for that truth-telling engagement needed Mr. McDo-not …
Why? I did follow the link and I still have the same question. Why? I know I’m not the sharpest Pulaski in the tool rack but why?
Why what?
Why follow this link?
Newest post on http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com website
I can’t figure out what I am supposed to get out of it? I obviously love non sequitors, rabbit trails, fluff, side stories, and YouTube links that don’t have anything to do with the YHF Disaster, but I hate riddles and things I can’t understand. So…why go to that website and that link in particular?
This story is so much easier to understand and makes a lot more sense to me.
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLggQeE9sIdm60HOiLijdJ_duUyIQ3D17a
Pretend I am a slow witted buckle dragger grunt and groudpounder who thought all there was to being a hotshot was;
1. Cutting line and burning it out, or
2. Cutting line and backfiring it, or
3. Cutting line, burning it out and backfiring it.
4. Repeat steps 1 – 3 as often as was necessary and then mopping it up five chains in and coldtrailing the line all while following orders within my crew’s chain of command without question unless they were fucking up, or giving orders I expected to be followed without question unless I was about to fuck up.
5. Finally…go to the bar and talk about the last fire, the next fire, or some other fire and show up the next dat ready to do it all over again while living a simple and relatively joyful life.
Oh…and welcome back from M45 or wherever the fuck you were. How did your probing go? Are you sore? Did it hurt? Did you really have an alien baby like the word on the street said you were? What did you name it? Are you rally going to teach it to ski and send it to NAU? Do you know the father? Why can you understand how Joy’s brain works but I can’t? Are you that much smarter then I am and it is because she is so much smarter than I am? Have the two of you started your own Mensa International chapter?
“knuckle dragger”
Oh…and one more thing. It’s alright.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UMVjToYOjbM
OK, just one more for now. I really like your executive summary for Sad Sack. Keep up the good work!
And for everyone who is NOT eligible to join Mensa with RTS and Joy, Rumor Control has reported for weeks now that M45, which is also known as the Pleiades star cluster or the Seven Sisters, is where the aliens took Fred to PROBE and impregnate him with his alien baby. But…you know how Rumor Control is.
Joy,
I saw your prayers on your web site so I prayed to God on your behalf. God wanted me to tell to go ahead and write everything you know about YHF Disaster here on IM…tick tock.
God loves you, but God has an eternity to get this wrapped up, but God knows no one else does, so…di di mau most ricky tick and get it done before God gets really pissed off at you. That is all…carry on,
Certain the truth is here on IM–thanks Gary. However, if you click on the RTS site at the very beginning it leads you to Joy’s Blog and some very important photos of the burn out at the Shrine. You can see the main Peeples Valley Fire in its proper position on the right and in the Harper Canyon area–a place that Joy and I hiked with that young author Josh Eells. To the left is a gap and obvious separation of the two fire fires–the one in the distant Harper Canyon and the fire on the left in the near Shrine Area. I think the time on the photos 4:13 and maybe 4:15.
It is pretty hard to say there was not a burn in the Shrine area when you observe those photos closely and especially if you happen to know the area. What I was seeing atop the two track corresponded to the fire in the Peeples Valley direction and the Harper Valley canyon area. Joy and I were already on the west side of the Weavers (I believe we topped out about 1:PM but check with Joy for exact time) when any burn would have been started in the Shrine area so we would have missed the beginning of the burn. But it is pretty plain the picture is showing two different burns and smoke columns separated by some distance and in two different areas–Shrine on the left and Harper Canyon on the right.
This site will always remain the priority for truth simply because of its early foundation and the credentials of the men and women–mostly long time wild land fire fighters and managers.
John Daugherty, who I had the honour to hike with has never throttled the truth nor the right to opinion. He deserves the highest commendation for allowing those concerned to continue to work at revealing truth and exposing falsehoods about the Yarnell incident on this site. John has spent excessive time and many trips at his own expense, several of his excursions I had,with Joy, met with him in his quest to get facts about the Yarnell deaths and get those out to the public. He was ever ready to interview people involved to get more of the facts about the cover up.
I am certain there are other sites that are helping to solve the mystery of the deaths–some perhaps not so unbiased as this site but still yet contributing to the welfare of the wild land fire fighter. No human deserves the way the young GMHS were led to their deaths–and that is what this site is all about–changing situations that caused those deaths.
I also am a victim–and I know there are other victims of the wild land fire at Yarnell. And no, I am not that cry baby victim–I am one who was an unknowing guinea pig. We suffered the big business, government urgency, and whatever excuses were available to put us and other people in harms way concerning Uranium mining. But time and education on all these matters takes us from victim to being empowered to speak out and do our best to change things. Certainly those 17 young wild land fire fighters that died under orders from superiors were victims, although they likely did not realise it.
Men go to work thinking things those that lead them would look out for their safety and best interests. That is not always so as proven at Yarnell and as I have seen at times in my experience as a hard rock miner. During the mining of Uranium much safety procedure was skirted that caused injury and death because of the “need” of the nation. Signs would come down in high radiation areas on swing and graveyard where ventilation was inadequate. I have learned since that we were working in areas where a shift was equal to several hundred x-ray every day. Gamma ray radiation is very damaging to cells–but we were being sacrificed for the better good, at least in someone’s eyes–but most of us had no clue and the more ignorant we remain, the more production the company gets. Safe procedures take time–and time is highly valuable in production. In the same way places like Cedar City, Utah and others along that route east from Mercury, Nevada suffered fall out from all those atomic blasts which totalled 193 and 125 above ground Atomic Bomb blasts, with even one a hydrogen bomb blast. Those people have high incidence of cancer–more victims but most are not cry babies but some are damned sick and people angered to have to be subjected unknowingly to such malicious work by those that knew the facts.
We have a chemical world–and it is great that people of the ilk of John Daugherty go out of their way to expose these mining companies and others involved in satisfying their greed with no concern for the environment or health of the public. Damn these companies that hide their chemicals under trade secret laws. How can anyone dump this chemical soup on people with any good conscience? Yet they go right on doing it with no concern–their greed outweighs their conscience.
So we are grateful to see people who are beyond greed and power mongering without conscience. Some can not be bought when it comes to facing the facts and revealing them–and those that can not stand the truth will hide their heads in the sand–they will avoid this site for certain.
OK, thanks for the tip Sonny.
**
** THE 2013 YARNELL HILL FIRE TIME-LAPSE VIDEO
**
** AS SEEN FROM BOTH THE ORIGINAL CONGRESS LOCATION
** AND FROM THE YARNELL SIDE.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE ) post on January 21, 2019 at 4:31 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> WTKTT subsequently also said::
>>
>> “Keep in mind, though, that Matt Oss’s Yarnell Fire video was a TIME-LAPSE.
>>
>> It didn’t happen AS quickly as the video shows.”
>>
>> Although Oss’es time-lapse youtube video is sped-up some, one can go to the
>> settings icon on the youtube task-bar and slow the speed down a good bit.
>> One can slow it even more and get a fairly reasonable example of ‘real time’
>> by then continuously clicking the play/stop button.
>>
>> This has lead me to another thought, likely specific to the abilities of WTKTT.
>>
>> In the slow-down mode mentioned above, the point where the fire first crests
>> the ridge-line is visible.
>>
>> If that exact point could be identified…
It has. See BOTH of the VIDEO links below…
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> …perhaps we would have the ability to determine if the fire came up to
>> the initial descent point behind them, BEFORE it roared into the
>> deployment bowl.
This FIRST video, posted recently, used the SAIT investigator’s own ‘Figure 19’ from their own final SAIR document and showed exactly WHERE and WHEN those flames were FIRST seen ‘cresting’ the ridges…
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – SAIR Figure 19
YouTube Video Description: A workup of ‘Figure 19’ from the original SAIR document.
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/Jl1l8EyDric
According to the Oss time-lapse video… the FIRST flames seen cresting the ridgeline, halfway back towards the place from where they departed on their final journey, didn’t ‘appear’ until 4:43 PM.
According to the SAIR document itself… at 4:43 PM… the GM Hotshots had already been dead for about 1 minute.
The following is a NEW VIDEO that shows the same time-lapse video… but THIS time you get to see exactly WHERE and WHEN the flames crested the ridges from BOTH the original Congress-side video location AND from the OPPOSITE side… over in Yarnell itself.
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell-Fire-Time-Lapse-Video-Yarnell-View-1
YouTube Video Description: The 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire time-lapse video as seen from BOTH the original Congress location AND from the
Yarnell side. Original time-lapse video credit: Matt Oss Photography
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/2kE1OLigvZo
Thanks WTKTT for that information put out by Donut. He mentions the fire was going over the road he was to take out of there-and ashes and embers coming down as part of this–
That road he talks about is the extension of Sesame Street and how they hiked in from their vehicle. That road is in direct parallel to any fire that would have been set at the Shrine where we saw the video of the men using drip torches. It would also be a perpendicular to the reverse of the wind and approximately a half mile as the crow flies from the Shrine area. It would seem very much possible that the Shrine burn out was what Donut was witnessing to cross that road.
I believe Joy will have definite proof of the Shrine burn out–and likely the exact time and location it was started. I am of a thought that it is highly possible that it was the fire that threatened the vehicles as well.
Somehow I feel sad for Donut, the liar he proved to be by coercion –I think he was brainwashed by the system so that he was afraid to tell the truth and he started out his lies by omission of the truth and then took coaching from his superiors.
It seems that lives are pretty much expendable in that wild land fire fighting business when it comes down to the low person on the totem. It is screwed up when Donut tells us that they knew of the weather bound to reverse the fire, yet the bastards in charge of those young men ordered them down into an absolute trap of dense manzanita that a grizzly bear would have had a challenge to navigate through.
Now that is fucked up when you can risk those young lives in that manner with no conscience as to the useless and needless risk they were entertaining.
But even more unconscionable is that the whole truth would be covered up so these practices will continue.
Dr. Ted has revealed the cover up in the Mann Gulch deaths, and then he refused to sign off on the investigation of those killed in the Storm King fire when he was lead investigator. He knew he was risking his career by not signing when the investigation had not met his criteria, yet he could not leave an investigation incomplete when 14 deaths had to be explained. A tribute to him when so few have the balls to get out the truth. I can imagine the redactions were plentiful on that investigation as well–something he would never have done.
The public needs the truth–the wild land fire fighters need even more since their lives are at stake.
The movie was nice but it was garbage as so many books have been. There is only one way to make things right on the Yarnell needless killing of 19 wild land fire fighters–that is the brutal truth. It is not good to make heroes of men who needlessly killed their crew, especially when they knew the weather situation as pointed out by Donut–and they are idiots if they did not know that getting trapped in manzanita with no way out was a death knoll. So yes, we should be angry that this matter was handled like an unfortunate attempt to be saving Yarnell. That was a damn lie that every firefighter well knows was perpetrated to make the people in charge of that Yarnell disaster out as heroes with no culpability to their incredible stupidity.
Well I should not be talking to you–I am not after all a fire fighter–but I knew enough not to get trapped that day nor leave Joy to her own devices that day. I did not have the weather reports but as Donut would admit–you could see that storm and the heat was above the 100 not 85 degree mark with dry conditions in a manzanita patch that burns like gasoline once it gets a fire behind it.
But beyond the 19 deaths do not forget that a third of the people of Yarnell have died since the two fires of Yarnell, 2013 and the Tenderfoot Fire at Yarnell of 2015. Unheard of that one out of three people die within five years of the Yarnell fire and that equals the deaths cigarettes cause only much faster–but then fish die immediately after being doused with the chemical retardants–humans take a bit longer–it affects the respiratory system and the resulting chemicals cause all sorts of maladies including heart attacks, cancer , lung diseases, and god knows what else since there is a big percentage hidden (5-15% chemicals by trade secret). Does that not remind you of the method of cover up that the 19 had as to the real reason they died? And if you want to think these companies that douse you with their orange retardant are any better than cigarette companies in hiding the real truth of their chemicals then you were born yesterday. Billions are at set to be lost if the truth is known–and just as the cigarette companies, they will continue spreading their pollutants as long as possible no matter how many are sickened or killed from it.
I was glad to be of some small help to Gary on his book. Mining and fire fighting are alike in their dangers–it is enough the dangers from the work itself–but when you have managers that know the dangers and kill you anyway then fire fighting takes the cake.
Oh and congratulations to Joy for her grit in staying in such a situation. I do wonder how she must feel going to a Eric Marsh memorial academy of learning about fire fighting knowing that Eric Marsh was one of the main players causing the death of his crew. Good God, now that takes grit to go there–something I could never be able to stomach with what we know about Marsh and his part in the death of those young heroes.
Reply to Charlie post on March 24, 2019 at 10:55 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Thanks WTKTT for that information put out by Donut.
>> He mentions the fire was going over the road he was to take out of
>> there-and ashes and embers coming down as part of this–
>>
>> That road he talks about is the extension of Sesame Street and how
>> they hiked in from their vehicle. That road is in direct parallel
>> to any fire that would have been set at the Shrine where we saw the
>> video of the men using drip torches. It would also be a perpendicular
>> to the reverse of the wind and approximately a half mile as the crow
>> flies from the Shrine area. It would seem very much possible that the
>> Shrine burn out was what Donut was witnessing to cross that road.
Well.. except for the fact that what Brendan Mcdonough said during his recent Memphis television interview is simply NOT TRUE.
The fire was NOT “crossing that road” in the timeframe of Brendan’s escape from his lookout position.
Brendan actually said ( on camera )…
“And so I was on my way out. Fire starts to pick up a little bit and I can see it comin’ across the road I was supposed to go out on.”
Total fiction.
Unlike the bullshit way this was depicted in the movie… Mcdonough and Frisby were able to easily make it all the way back east on that two-track road from the old grader area to the top of the Sesame clearing area ( where the GM command vehicles were staged ) without encountering any ‘fire” on that road.
Brendan’s OWN PHOTOGRAPHS, which he took at 3:49 PM after ARRIVING ( safely ) back where the GM command vehicles were staged, prove that his own recent statement is totally false.
Those photographs are here ( where they have always been ) in the public evidence folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I believe Joy will have definite proof of the Shrine burn out–and
>> likely the exact time and location it was started.
Maybe so.
There seems to be no doubt that Joy “knows things” that haven’t been made public yet… but as she has said over and over again… she will reveal what she wants ( and only IF she wants ) “in her own time”. Fair enough.
Also… in case no one has said so… “Thank You” for sticking with that recent discussion about these ‘manual burnout’ mysteries that have always been lingering in the background ever since the incomplete SAIR report was published.
Nothing was proven either way by that recent recap… but at least it ended up being a good ’roundup’ of what IS ( and is NOT ) currently known about these mysterious ‘manual burnout’ reports.
At least FOUR different people have now independently confirmed seeing this mysterious ‘Shrine video’ ( before it disappeared ), and I believe there was a general consensus among the people that say they saw it that the exact location of the video was right there by that ‘rock wall’, on the Waltraud property, about 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement turns to dirt at the west end of the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot.
And yes, the TIME is also still something very important to try and establish, since depending on WHEN this all supposedly took place lies the key to even beginning to determine whether there was any chance at all that it could have had anything to do with what eventually transpired out in the box canyon.
If I recall the discussion below correctly… we all took a good shot at trying to establish a TIME for this mysterious video… but there was never any consensus about that. There was too much disagreement among the people who say they saw the video about whether the “wind was whipping the trees” to use that as any kind of TIME indicator.
But regardless of any ‘mysterious video’… I still believe one of the best ( still existing ) pieces of evidence that SOMETHING weird happened out at the Shrine Road Youth Camp area was the actual RECORDED statement from Blue Ridge Hotshot Trueheart Brown as he, himself, was evacuating the Shrine area.
At 4:37 PM, on Sunday, June 30, 2013, and just two minutes before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call was about to hit the Air-To-Ground radio channel, Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby and Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown were filmed arriving at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot in their Polaris Ranger UTV.
They had just finished ‘chasing’ everyone out of the Shrine Road Youth Camp area, due to the fireline now coming over the ridges in that area, and they are ‘bringing up the rear’ and are the last ones out of that area.
As they pull up to the parking lot, Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd are already ‘staged’ there to meet them.
Aaron Hulburd is, at this point, filming everything that is happening.
Frisby and Brown pull up to them and stop, and Brown is the first one to speak.
Brown says “Hey there” to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and the conversation between them begins.
The full video containing this exchange between Brown and Yowell is here…
Aaron Hulburd Video Title: M2U00264.MP$
http://youtu.be/t75k7o_L6B8
Here is an exact transcript of the start of that conversation, at +3:06 into the video…
—————————————————————————————-
+3:06 ( 1636.29 / 4:36.29 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Hey there ( guy ).
+3:07 ( 1636.30 / 4:36.30 )
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): What time is it? Is it dark, or what?
+3:08 ( 1636.31 / 4:36.31 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): It IS dark ( up here ).
+3:09 ( 1636.32 / 4:36.32 )
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): How ya doin’, guy?
+3:12 ( 1636.35 / 4:36.35 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!
+3:14 ( 1636.37 / 4:36.37 )
(Aaron Hulburd): We figured you guys were bringin’ up ( the rear ).
—————————————————————————————–
So the very FIRST thing BR Captain Brown ‘reports’ to Yowell, after having just chased all the other firefighters out of the Shrine Youth Camp area, is the following…
“Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”
The “God DAAAMN!” is with full vocal emphasis on Brown’s part.
He’s a professional Hotshot, who has been to a lot of fires and seen a lot of people do a lot of stupid things… but what he ( apparently ) just witnessed out in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area still elicits a strong ( and incredulous ) “God DAAAMN! from him… as if the ‘stupidity’ meter just went off the end of even HIS chart.
As was discussed down below… that was a VERY specific thing that Brown said.
He did NOT say…
“making sure idiots aren’t getting burned up” ( by the approaching fire ).
He specifically said…
“making sure idiots aren’t burning THEMSELVES OUT” ( by something THEY were doing? ).
That still sounds for all the world like Brown just had to STOP some other group of firefighters from doing some kind of poorly-planned and/or badly-executed manual burnout.
Maybe someday we will know what Trueheart Brown really meant by that emphatic statement he made to Jason Clawson just moments after evacuating from the Shrine Youth Camp area.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I am of a thought that it is highly possible that it was the fire
>> that threatened the vehicles as well.
At this point ( and based on other already-existing photographic evidence )… it’s not likely.
The “fire that threatened the ( GM ) vehicles” still appears to be the same fireline that was had already been approaching from the northwest, and photographed by both Brendan Mcdonough ( from the GM vehicles themselves ) and by Christopher Mackenzie from up at the ‘Last Rest Spot’.
Correction for above…
I said…
———————————————————————————-
Maybe someday we will know what Trueheart Brown really meant by that emphatic statement he made to Jason Clawson just moments after evacuating from the Shrine Youth Camp area.
———————————————————————————-
Blue Ridge Hotshot Trueheart Brown was speaking to PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ( and NOT PNF employee Jason Clawson ) when Brown said…
“Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”
According to the video… Jason Clawson was already engaging in a conversation with Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby when Brown and Yowell started THEIR conversation, circa 4:37 PM.
So my paragraph above SHOULD have looked like this…
——————————————————————————–
Maybe someday we will know what Trueheart Brown really meant by that emphatic statement he made to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell just moments after evacuating from the Shrine Youth Camp area.
——————————————————————————–
Thanks again WTKTT–It does sound like Trueheart Brown was watching a burn out and worried that whoever was doing the burnout was likely in danger of being caught by it. We may soon get confirmation from Joy and whatever evidence she has on the matter.
I will stand by what I saw and investigated with Joy in the video when we took measures to be sure what we saw was that rock thing above the Shrine. Also, since and with knowledge of how the wild land fire fighters work, it was almost certain they would have mandated a back fire or burn there above the Shrine. They had the wind blowing away from Yarnell and the Shrine area and even if the wind direction would change, it would be directed toward the bullet proof Helms property and that canyon of death.
You can see those that were stationed at the Shrine knew nothing of where the GMHS crew was by their statements on video shortly after the men died. Someone did, but it was not information available to at least those that were being videoed and burning near the Shrine.
Yes it is hard to tell when Donut is truthful–maybe the PTSD has screwed his thinking up–or maybe he has orders from headquarters? He has to stay with his BS story as best he can–that will change in details since he has forgotten how he said things in earlier times. Very little to go by on his testimony but some bits and pieces might be fact.
Certain that much justice is being done here for those loved ones in getting at the truth–also quite revealing to people working under a system where your safety depends upon the boss you have. There are plenty of reliable wild land fire fighter bosses but then you can see that there are a few who would break all the rules and risk their men’s lives–even kill them such as Marsh and Steed did. Perhaps there will be more attention given in the matter of hiring those that manage.
Much is yet uncovered–much unsaid that a few know. We need a good documentary directed by people of the wisdom about wild land fire fighting and what went wrong to kill those young GMHS firefighters.
There are several hundreds of years of wild land fire fighting experience found on this very site. Who can challenge the wisdom of Gary, WTKTT, RTS, Dr. Putnam, Woodsman, Norb, JD, Honda, and the many retired wild land fire fighters that I have not mentioned that post here. This is the documentary that will change the way people are fighting these fires and stop the foolish killing of those young wild land firefighters as was done with the GMHS crew. This documentary would put a plug in the mouths of the ones that continue to lie in order to present themselves as heroes at Yarnell . Instead it would facilitate change, demand that men’s lives come before structures and that safety rules be followed stringently, most certainly when young lives are at stake.
I am one that if you believe you want to break safety rules the let that be on you, but when you break them and risk lives other than your own then you ought to be brought to justice just as a man who gets blind drunk then drives his vehicle into another killing the occupants.
I did see that and helped pull a lady out of a car that had been broadsided by a drunk who must have been doing a good fifty off a dirt road onto the main highway with a heavy Chevy Blaser 11. He was thrown out on the street but he had killed the driver of a BMW–my son Ted and I used a high lift jack to pry the door open to get the passenger out–we were certain that car was going catch fire. The drunk survived and received a five year sentence, not a heroes flag for his bad actions. I was at that time working as a counselor for those convicted of drunk driving –Alamogordo, NM so that was how I knew of the crime and the results.
It is always a breath of fresh air knowing that so many are concerned of getting it right on the Yarnell deaths that were not an accident or God’s will–Your efforts are appreciated and though it sometimes seems frustrating, I believe the rewards will be to many as truth is revealed in time.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH’S RECENT TELEVISION INTERVIEW
** IN MEMPHIS, ON FEBRUARY 26, 2019
Just recently, former Granite Mountain hotshot Brendan McDonough had another one of his ongoing paid speaking engagements. This one was for a foundation in Memphis, Tennessee, and it took place on February 26, 2019.
A local television station did a video interview with Brendan as part of the local promotion for the event.
In that video-interview, Brendan basically ‘retells the story’ of what he experienced in Yarnell, Arizona, on June 30 2013.
There are LOTS of places in this new “story” that Brendan is telling where he really goes off the rails and it becomes almost pure ‘made up’ fiction, rather than fact.
There are times when the “story” he is now telling doesn’t even match anything in either his ADOSH testimony, or what he wrote in his OWN BOOK.
More about that later… first things first.
Here is a link to the original video interview, followed by a full transcript of this ‘new story’ that Brendan is now telling…
YouTube Channel: Local24Memphis
Video Title: WEB EXTRA: More with Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough
Published: February 26, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWHSGaPx-7I&feature=youtu.be
Full transcript
——————————————————————————————————–
I believe my story is…. it is tragic… but it is full of hope and I’ve been blessed with that… and it… ya know… started as a young child and, ya know, we fast-forward to this… this defining moment of June thirtieth, two-thousand and thirteen, and…
So we wake up and… my roommate, he’s on the crew… we get… we get awake and we go to the… the fire station, ya know, five-thirty AM… and got coffee goin’… got lunch packed and we’re ready to go.
And so we get there… we see the rest of the guys and we’re drinkin’ coffee and… uhm… about fifteen, twenty minutes in we get a call to go Yarnell. It’s about an hour away from home and I’m sittin’ there thinkin’… Okay… hour away from home… it’s a small little fire… we’re gonna be home for Fourth-of-July.
This’ll be perfect.
As a hotshot, you’re never home for Fourth-of-July.
And so that was kinda the… the big-push, ya know. Everyone’s got little kids and it’s like… man… I wanna see the fireworks with our kids.
So we get drivin’ down there, and as any good hotshot would do, I… I take a nap. Fall asleep anywhere. I don’t know how long we could be workin’. Twenty-four hours straight. Thirty-six hours straight. So I get some sleep… and I remember wakin’ up probly about twenty minutes before we get there and I start lookin’ around at the terrain and… ya know… what… what we’re seeing and what we’re kinda gonna be up against and… ya know… how big could this fire potentially get.
And so we get to the town and… so… my superintendent, Eric Marsh, he gets a briefing and he goes “Hey… I got somethin’ for us” and we’re gonna go ahead and get a heel on this fire… and that just means at the… the starting point, we’re gonna start building an anchor, and we’re gonna build a safe spot to start from. We gotta have somewhere to go from… and so that was… that was our task.
And so… ah… we grabbed our packs, grabbed some extra water, grabbed everything we need and we started hikin’, like any other day.
And so we start gettin’ up there and I remember it bein’ humid.
And I know ya think… ya know… Prescott Arizona? Humid? ( he laughs ).
Tell ya… have ya ever been to Memphis?
But… it was… it was a humidity that I hadn’t felt before on a fire like that and so I just remember startin’ to sweat a lot… and so I was drinkin’ water, and we stopped about halfway, which is kinda unusual. Usually we don’t stop. It was a hot, humid day fer sure… and… uhm… took a water break and kept goin’ and we get to the top and my captain and my superintendent… Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed… they’re lookin over and they go “Hey… we need a lookout. Hey Donut…”.
That’s me. My nickname’s Donut.
They go “You wanna be a lookout today?”
I say “Yes, sir. I’d love to.”
And… uh… it was a task that I was honored to be a part of… ya know… I have responsibilities and roles and it’s a leadership role. At the time I was… I was twenty-one years old and… uhm… I was just… ya know… tryin’ to make a life for myself and my daughter and be that dad that I never had.
And so I… I felt a sense of pride when they asked me… I say “they trust me”.
And so we talked about what… what they needed, what they wanted me to do, what they wanted me to watch for on the fire.
So I said “Allright…” ya know… “I’ll see you guys later. Love ya.”
And so I start walkin’ down and I get picked up by somebody and he gives me a ride to my lookout position… and I’m watchin’ this fire… and as the day goes on I’m watchin’ it kinda pick up like any other fire… and I’m talkin’ with my superintendent and he goes “No, thank you… I appreciate it… ya know… I’m…”… uh… from the hill they were at they could see a lot of what I could see. The main thing they wanted me to see was to… to look into a canyon that they couldn’t see over.
And so I’m just hangin’ out… takin’ weather… ya know… I got a a weather kit that let’s… allows me to find out temperature, the relative humidity and what we call probability of ignition… what’s the likelihood of how fast it’s gonna burn.
And so it… it starts gettin’ hotter and hotter throughout the day and hit about lunch time and we’re seein’… ya know… eighty-plus and… uhm… the fire’s startin’ to kick up a little bit… but it’s movin’ away from us. It’s goin’ north.
So we’re pretty safe. We’re… we’re… we’re pretty good at this point.
And… uhm… I eat lunch. It’s an MRE… ya know… meals ready to eat for the military… and so I think I had like beef macaroni or somethin’. Couldn’t fix it with enough tabasco, but ( he laughs ) got it down and kept goin’ and I…
I heard over the radio… this weather event comin’ in… and it said, you know, it’s… it’s bringin’ gusts of fifty to sixty miles an hour and… uhm… it’s gonna turn the fire around… and I’m sittin’ there thinkin’… wow… that’s… that could be pretty impressive if that happens. I haven’t seen that happen too often. So I call up my captain, my supe, and I say “Hey sir… did you copy that weather?”, ya know, “I did, but what did you hear?”, and so I told him what I hear and he goes “Okay”. You know, we got a timeframe… that gives a timeframe of about TWO HOURS for this weather event.
And so… I’m sittin’ there spinnin’ my weather… and… uh… I’m watchin’ this storm come in and I… and I can see it off in the distance. I remember talkin’ to my Captain… “Hey Cap… you see that storm comin’?”… he says… “Yea… I see it comin’. Keep your eyes on it and let me know what’s going on”.
And… uhm… about an hour later… another weather event comes in and says “Hey… we got about an hour” before this weather storm comes in… and my crew’s workin’, they’re on the fire’s edge, they’re goin’ direct, they’re workin’ with helicopters… and at this point the… the fire’s moved so far north there was another town over that was threatened… and so they had started pullin’ off ‘cus they couldn’t save certain homes… and… uhm… so that’s kinda… that’s startin’ to go… gettin’ a little chaotic… and then this weather, you know, it’s gettin’ closer and closer.
And so I… it’s my time… uh… what time was it? ( He thinks for a moment ).
It was late afternoon. I’m talkin’ to my captain and I say “Hey… I think it’s a good idea for me to get outta here ‘cus the fire’s started doin’ what it was supposed to do. It started goin’ from north, to northeast, you know, it was just kinda makin’ its turn… makin’ its push… but the winds… we haven’t seen it yet. It wasn’t fifty, sixty… it just wasn’t comin’ like… like they had said at that time.
And so I was on my way out. Fire starts to pick up a little bit and I can see it comin’ across the road I was supposed to go out on.
That same gentleman that had picked me up earlier knew I was there… and so he came… I was gonna call for help and I was like… I don’t… I don’t think this is, ya know, uhm… I think I could make it… ya know… but I don’t wanna put someone else’s life at risk for my own decision.
And so… uh… as soon as I went to hit the radio button… I let go… and he pulled up.
And so he’s like… “Get in!”… ya know… “C’mon Donut!”. ( He laughs ). I’m like “Allright”.
So I throw my pack in there… and… ya know… he’s like “You wanna tell your supe what’s goin’ on?”. This is another superintendent of a different crew… and I said “Sir… why don’t you. Okay? I think you got a little more experience. Why dontcha tell him what’s goin’ on and…”.
So he’s chattin’ with him. He says “Hey… I got Donut. He’s with us. We’re gonna move your vehicles out of where they’re at. We’re gonna bring ’em in town… and we’ll see y’all in town”. Ya know… “we’ll see ya some time today”.
And so that was the last time I had talked to my superintendent.
And… uhm… so we get the vehicles in town… and so… they… ya know… the… the incident command team they’re goin’ “Hey… this fire’s startin’ to turn out on us. There’s a bunch a homes up north. We need to try and get in there and prep it”.
And so we start gettin’ up there… it’s about a five minute drive. Get our vehicles parked. I hop in with them and I’m puttin’ on my pack when we… when we finally got to where we were parked… and it couldn’t a been two minutes in that we started seein’ embers fall from the fire.
And… they’re probly… they’re pretty big. Ya know… ’bout half-dollar size start comin’ down… and so this fire’s startin’ to start everywhere and so it’s like… allright… it’s time to get outta here. This is… this is dangerous.
Uhm… no… no home’s worth it.
And so… over the radio I hear my crew and they’re… ya know… “Hey… we’re headed to our escape route. We’re on our way out”… ya know… “We’re gonna… we’re gonna meet up in town”.
So I’m like “Allright. Cool. I’ll see ya in about thirty, thirty-five minutes”.
And so at this point in time, they said “Hey… this… this weather event… you got… you got an HOUR… when they started moving.”
And… what had happened in an HOUR… happened in about ten, fifteen minutes.
So this fire had completely turned around… and it seemed like as soon as it lined up east and west… opposite of north and south, the way it was going… that wind just came in. That storm came in… and with the monsoon season that we have it’s, ya know, a heavy rain event… but sometimes it… it brings no rain… it just brings a lotta wind… and so it just pushes out these down… downward flows that can… uhm… just create its own… its own weather within a little area. Like a micro-burst, almost.
And so… this weather just started turnin’.
And we had pulled outta the… the north end of the town we were at.
We started movin’ more south to where the vehicles were.
Where… ya know… someone had reached out to my crew… and… “Hey… how you guys doin? You makin’ your way down?” “Yea… we’re makin’ our way down”.
And… uhm… I remember watchin’ this… this fire come through and it started to burn through the city… and I remember thinkin’… we’re… we’re losin’ homes right now. Uh… people are losin’ their livelihoods.
And… it’s important. Ya know. And… and… people are being evacuated.
And ya kinda feel this sense of like… did I do enough?.
Ya know? Was my efforts enough?… for what’s goin’ on?
Then I gotta… at twenty-one I’m figuring out how to check myself if like this is a natural disaster.
We find success when we find it… and when we can’t… we just… ya know… what can we change? How do we grow from it?
There’s some days you just… there’s not much you can do.
( Transcript continued next ‘Reply’ due to post-length limits )…
( McDonough interview transcript – continued )
So my crew’s makin’ their way down and this fire really just starts pickin’ up and usually smoke goes… rises… ya know… and this… this wind was so intense that it just laid over. It just created like a two-hundred foot layer of smoke that just kinda laid over an entire town.
And… uh… my superintendent called over the radio and he goes… ya know… “This is… this is Eric Marsh breaking in on the radio. We’re gettin’ ready to deploy our fire shelters”.
I remember when it hit me… I go “Man… that’s… that’s not a good place to be in right now”.
But they’ve trained for this, ya know. These guys have been in the fire service for ten, fifteen… ya know… years… twenty years… uhm… and… I… I had a lotta trust in them. I’d worked for them for two and a half years and I’d never been put in a position that I felt compromised or unsafe… and so… I was like… allright… ya know… they’re… they’re gonna get outta this. This happens… and… uhm… this is a part of firefighting. This is an aspect that does happen.
And… so we start gettin’ ready for medical and a lotta people are startin’ to get pulled outta the city. We’ve evacuated what we can evacuate. And… uh… that was it. That was the last time I heard from my supe over the radio. And… uhm… the fire had passed… and we were ready to get in there… but… homes were still burnin’. Power lines were crossin’ the road and… uh… there’s not much we could do to reach ’em and so they put a helicopter up with a… with a paramedic in there… and they find ’em… and ya hear him and he says “I’ve touched down on the ground” and you can hear the helicopter in the background… and about two minutes later he… he’s like “We got nineteen confirmed”… I’m like… “Yea. I told ya it was nineteen guys. Whadda ya mean?”
And in that split second I knew… like… they all died.
Like… nineteen men had just passed away.
The amount of shock I felt is unexplainable. That loss.
That deep love that you form with men… I call it man-love… ya know…
Man-love? Yea… man-love. Love that only men can have for one another.
For one another human being… and… it didn’t matter where you came from… what your past was like. I was a heroin addict. I was a felon… and these people took me in.
And… uh… they were gone. In the blink of an eye.
It was tough. I didn’t know what to feel.
And so there’s still… this city is still burning. There’s still a fire that’s threatening… and so… tryin’ to figure out how to get them outta there… what to do… this… this is somethin’ that just does not happen often.
And… I remember goin’ back to the buggies… and the news had started to spread… and I remember seein’ one of my brother’s cellphones in the truck ringing… and I remember thinkin’… he’s never gonna pick that up again. His wife’s never gonna hear his voice again.
And the rest was kind of a blur. For about a year.
I just did what I was asked to do and went to funerals, went to memorials, fundraisers. I didn’t get help. I’m a tough fireman. What do I need help for? Talk to somebody? Nah… let’s just go to the gym. Nah. It’s fine.
It started takin’ a serious toll on me. On my body and my mind and my family.
—————————————————————————————————–
+13:56 – END OF BRENDAN MCDONOUGH’S FEB 26, 2019 MEMPHIS VIDEO INTERVIEW
what a lying sack of shit.. gonna stop there rather than drill down into his lies
there was just a small group of in that operational area
Well then…
hmmm…
Please keep the faith everyone because I have done all I can behind the scenes to ensure it all unfolds this year versus keep on waiting…
I am working very hard on it…
Yes, I did see the ugly verbiage on the social media and all I can state is I am very concerned because if their view is such way now then when it all comes out then who is going to be there because I have no intentions of suppressing the data any further and this is because I am doing the right thing in the right manner.
I have no intent- no harm and no hate at all just need to make sure leaders are being made not gonna let a kid get chain-saw injured and it be fabricated to then it come out in the light and the kid is held accountable but nothing to the overhead even though it was the overhead who lied— it has to stop.
The truth needs to come out.
Thank you for what you’re doing here too.
I did gain some important data when I attended the Arizona Wildfire Academy and even RTS was like you are not gonna tell me??? Nope. I felt the concern belonged with administration and my instructors and the ones named only and my best friend and I stick to that only – however if there is no further communication on it than my life insurance guy and the coroners I know will be in the “know” but for now I have faith this will be handled-
Now, I am sanctioned in from the -Eric Marsh- Arizona Wildlife Academy (Embry Riddle- Prescott Arizona) as a bonafied FFT2 and heading to the next academy to be a FFT1 and S-215 and then to the next and the next…very busy schedule…
There is no stopping the data now even if I were to pass on – it is solid and set to roll out…
Thank you Gary for your extended patience
I know you had sections of frustrations.
Soon you will learn how FFs were told Be Proud – you just saved a town and to hear the background data will change it all…
Happy Spring!
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 16, 2019 at 8:00 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Now, I am sanctioned in from the -Eric Marsh- Arizona Wildlife
>> Academy (Embry Riddle- Prescott Arizona) as a bonafied FFT2
Congratulations!
Thank you, WTKTT
-it was not easy this week with the attacks as I saw
pure rubbish.
that is on them
but it is apparent someone who knows the person should get the pains and attend it- it is obvious.
but I did alert my overheads and instructors and my best friend and a person who handles people with those kind of issues so I did my due diligence on my end-
then I dropped the matter so I can go on to continue my education and schooling-
Be productive and keep at it.
and if it continues as it is still being reported to my email alert area…
anonymous currently-
than that again it is on them
but once it gets real with full names than I just send it over to my legal team.
I am done suppressing information.
I am done being someone else’s concern or mis-read/misunderstand me.
It takes a special breed of person to become an unbiased fire investigator.
I am ready.
I am very glad to learn basic fire terminology but I am going for more training because there is one specific Hotshot crew I am aiming to be on and that is the one my father helped behind the scenes make possible with another fella…
I will commit to ten seasons once I am on this crew as well as train up on my time off on the (not tied to an agency) Investigator path-
I never been more serious in my life.
I know within ten years every area will be uncovered on that fire.
I think some are home today rethinking their Season 2019
They should.
They really would be better to take it off and start sharing the facts because like I said it is coming out if I am alive or not…
Better for it to come from them than the way I am going to present it in raw form.
Do you know how difficult it was for me to get in that shelter a couple of times this past week-
Very-
Thank you Tanner and Emilio for being my partners that day.
Thank you again WTKTT-
I never in my life thought I would have anything to do with the Fire Industry-
It just fell on my lap June 30, 2013 and thereafter-
A person at the Academy stated on Thursday, March 14, 2019, appx. 12:32:48 PM speaking about YHFire 6-30-13: -I did not have service for 12.5 days…roads still shut down…and my phone buzzed..my work phone…it kept buzzing…then my personal phone…full…128 gigs…full…I knew them on a very personal level; the GMHS…I am scrolling through the voicemails…what happened to my situational awareness?…I can still remember…I get in my truck…I just left…I walk in and I was with Curtis Heaton…”WTF?”…Very minimal news and [he learned through text and social media]…[He went to leave and they go to a Sonic]…Heaton wanted him to go and break the news to others [and this guy couldn’t he said]…Heaton releases him and broke the news direct to him…when he gets in his truck a gal Holly (blonde Crossfit yoked out thing sitting in his driver seat (WTF?) and she says she is his driver that she was under direct orders…best leadership call…I drop off Holly off at the airport….
I just wonder if this is the same “Holly” we all know as Holly Neill-
If so then it raises some inquiries and I will have to run some audio footage I have from certain areas of my FOIA again
because there was areas of fire data I got audio footage-hmmm.
His account was much more but it detailed Eric and I figure it is best to leave that “quiet” because of the content was not really appropriate for all readers and listeners but it was his perception. Very sobering. Very raw. Very genuine.
I saw Holly many times at the Arizona Wildfire Academy (2019)-
She came up to me at social hour at the 2018 Foresters and Fire Wardens Conference and I set it straight her “behind the scene” tactics have not been forthcoming to the way she comes to me in person or email or texts or calls so I did not say any communications this week her way. She did last year state we both have different research styles.
She was the one who showed me and sent me texts of one person was at peace with me but learning today the same time I was getting these messages- Five months prior this person keeps on wanting to use me as I have intent for harm and all I got is intent for T R U T H … it has to stop because I am bringing it all out and I do mean all as time unfolds. If the book makers are awaiting the verbiage to make their “profit” (tell all) books- I plan to give it out in His time so you may be waiting…yet come to me and talk with me and if I can I will help guide you to areas- k.
Well, what she does not get I did not have to be on the scene from the start because I was on those Weavers as the “eyewitness” that fateful day and it had too many red flags so in due time the world will see but meanwhile the right folks do have it behind the scenes because this is about to get extremely thick and I am not turning back-
Thank you to the forensic team that has helped me and been my mentors through this all.
I appreciate you freely taking the time out because you knew it was the right thing to do so we can start to get this out finally.
In closing-
this link: https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/01/19/discoveries-in-yarnell-hill-fire-recordings-provide-new-information-about-location-of-eric-marsh/
I do look forward to the moment the “stob” topic is fully discussed and as well the sawyer topic…maybe Fire20+ can share her views there who is also very close to Holly and others ( I even hiked with her and Tex ate breakfast with her) and seems to have alot to say on my morning account June 30, 2013-
Fire 20+’s and family must get that I saw Eric moments before I saw him hike up to meet that man so yeah I would know it was Eric not Helitak- I do not get what you were aiming to do there but creating new metadata and camera details??? Really??? Hmmm. Strange. But stranger things have happened.
This link below is the photo I legally recently had removed because it was my photo without photo credit on a social media page without courtesy credit and approval to use it tied to negative content. Hello. Really.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2013/12/15/arizona-releases-yarnell-hill-fire-documents/
In my Fireline Mobile Technology class 3.9.19 appx 9:50am the IC – Dirk Foreman may be “old school” but he did state an unfortunate comment for my ears – he said when I asked about the challenge coin and if the instructor has to name of the 10 and 18 and he replied- “The 10 and 18 are two distinct and separate trains of thoughts…my asst is pretty adamant on basic wildland and doing those 10 and 18..I am from the other school…you should know what they are about…recognize some of it…learn ’em but if you want to repeat them word for word than go to your IRPG…remember the concept behind the 10 & 18.”
– why are we steering away from the basics and relying on this IRPG and taking it out.
from FIREHOUSE article-
The IRPG origin dates back to the original Fireline Handbook and appendices that became too cumbersome to use in field. The result was a condensed or “pocket-sized” version of the reference document that has been updated through the years to keep up with the changing dynamics of wildland incident management and complexity.
Back in 2015, there was some discussion about, whether or not, any Legal Support Organizations had taken interest in what was happening with Citizen Investigation Efforts associated with the Yarnell Hill Fire… reference to the ACLU was made on several occasions and, recently, there has been some serious discussion with one of the separate State Chapters of the ACLU. This opportunity brings us to wonder, whether or not… any of the readers of Yarnell Revelations might, also, be practicing and/or retired members of the Legal (including, Judicial) Profession… Interns and Para-Legals, included, as well. Please get back to us if you are and might be interested in discovering “how” YOU might be able to help out… ThankYOU !!!
See you over at my blog- yarnell hill revelations…
That is funny–they saved a town? Well I do think they did save downtown Yarnell and Phils home and storage unit. But in doing so the wind whipped their burnout back around and it took out most of Glen Isla and a part of the Yarnell residences as well. This is my own conjecture in that I was a witness to the torching video that was going on by the Shrine–North Yarnell and the part of Yarnell that was behind the burn were unscathed except for the Shrine and a few houses below that.
For those that had never been to Yarnell, Glen Isla and Yarnell are actually one connected community about like you would see when you pass from Dallas into Fort Worth. Glen Isla lies to the west of Yarnell proper and does have a few hills and rock formations that somewhat make a distinction. So when I say a third of the people of Yarnell have died that includes Glen Isla and when a census was taken it was 645 before the two wild land fires of 2013 and 2015. Joy is there and knows at least 98% of the people that deceased, if not 100% and on a personal level.
It is sad to have watched some very healthy people before the fire die suddenly after the massive retardant dumps that inundated the town and its surrounding environment.
I think of Raul and Teresa–so healthy and happy that lady and man–you knew they would have a long and healthy life just from their attitude and healthy living. Joy and I had had dinner with them in their modest home–Teresa was alway so vibrant and I believed her to be in her 50’s. Raul was robust and about the same age. Yet in less than a year after the fire, Joy and I visited them–Teresa was sick and had suffered a stroke–Raul was not his positive self and moving slowly. This breaks your heart to see friends like that destroyed like that–yes they are still alive I believe, though I would have to check with Joy on that.
There is Kevin–a young 45 year old–stout as a bear and healthy–did so much clean up work at Yarnell. We knew him and often conversed with him after the fire. He suddenly fell dead–cancer. How could that be I say?
Well I can name quite a number but Joy knew all these 200 that are dead and many that are now sick and will soon be dead.
Now in all this I can speak for myself as well. I was doing well enough before the fire and retardant dumps. In only a matter of months after the fire I fell dead in the VA parking lot right after seeing two cardiologists. They thought I had angina–but it was not. That VA had me in hospice and I had myself removed–My son convinced them that I am the type that wants to die at home–well if i have to kick off suddenly.
Attitude has a lot to do with life–several heart attacks later I am still alive and today I put up a 20 ft. telephone pole on top of two other telephone poles as I did yesterday. Those are to be the beams of my wrap around screened porch I am building as an add on to this trailer they call a manufactured home. No I did not have illegals to help me like when I was younger and had some mines west of here. I did it myself–but let me tell you I look like a sloth in doing this job. My breathing has diminished so much after the fire that I find my self taxed to walk the perimeter of this 4 acre plot.
One reason my three dogs were killed by the rancher–I could not get the energy up to fix my fence so my dogs got loose–and in New Mexico it is open season on dogs when a rancher sees one on his range. But I have now recovered enough from the shotgun wound to my back that I have fixed my fence enough to keep my dogs (I call them my boys) inside their property.
You could say well that shot gun wound to the back slowed you down–first off it killed me. But my return back to life I will tell you I had went and was hospitalised just before Charlie, my dog, shot me. I could barely walk across the parking lot of the hospital to get into emergency so with chest pains again and out of breath I thought here we go again, another heart attack. But a catheter to my heart said I was now ok there–instead spot on the left lung–Charlie shot out the right lung. Still I was not much worse off after removing myself from the hospital after the gunshot wound than before–well except maybe the lead shot isn’t helping much.
I am not tell this to elicit sympathy. What I am saying is that I was an unknowing victim of those retardant dumps the same as the rest of that town. Loosing 19 young firemen is bad enough and most of them deserved the accolades they received in a manner of thinking. But good lords of the Irish and include Jesus and God Almighty–to see such suffering and deaths of the people of Yarnell is a tragedy that looks akin to the dousing of people with Atomic radiation that went on for so long at Mercury, Nevada testing site where over 125 above ground bombs were exploded and the fallout drifted throughout the United States and in some concentrated so that cancers became rampant.
Another thing–I have had 9 cancers remove in the past couple months–and another to be removed in a couple days behind my ear. These were large enough that I look like scarface–maybe could be good in a Frankenstein movie. I would not look good coming out of a whore house in leiderhousen like I did in the movie Tank Girl (I was paid $70 for doing that and some damn good food–I was cutting wood for a living at that time). But the story is my background as a uranium miner could be blamed, but before these cancers were generally small–not all large. So I queried the doctor about that–he said when your immune system is taxed cancer takes off. And these cancers were going strong before Charlie shot me.
So, it is my hope that the Yarnell guinea pigs which includes me will bring to attention the deadly chemicals that the wild land fire fighters experience and anyone else exposed to these pollutants. Now you will say that you have not experienced the problems I have mentioned that Yarnellites have suffered and you have been exposed for years.
Fortunately or unfortunately young people can suffer the chemical contamination and like cigarette smokers and uranium miners–they will not see much damage to their health until later years. But the elderly and those already taxed by their immune systems will find that their golden years of life will be quickly extinquished.
These are my own personal musings–I unfortunately did not realise how destructive to health this agent orange retardant could be until I started watching people go down, including myself and began to do some research on the ingredients we know of.. To bad we cannot know the trade secret chemicals they include that perhaps average 10% of the pollutants dropped on us. Ten percent of 500,000 gallons is 5o,000 gallons of unknown chemicals dispersed about Yarnell on the first fire if the 500,000 gallon report I had is correct of orange retardant drop. Add another drop in 2015 and not only do you have the ammonium pollution but also another huge load of unknown chemical drop. Yet the environmental departments in the government see no reason for alarm or even concern–I had written the EPA.
Old Jesus and the good Irish Gods, even the Leprechaun do shake their heads at the atrocities we humans have created among ourselves. But some of us keep whittling away at these bad situations hoping to make the world safer so we can live and enjoy that American right to the pursuit of happiness.
Reply to Rocksteady post on March 16, 2019 at 1:55 pm
>> Rocksteady said…
>>
>> what a lying sack of shit..
>> gonna stop there rather than drill down into his lies
Doesn’t take a very large drill bit.
Just some of the ‘low hanging fruit’…
That same gentleman that had picked me up earlier knew I was there… and so he came.
Brendan is, of course, talking about Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby.
In his own book, Brendan finally acknowledged ( sort of ) the truth… which is that the only reason Brian Frisby accidentally ‘stumbled’ across Brendan as he was evacuating his lookout position is because Frisby had agreed to another face-to-face with Eric Marsh up near the anchor point, and Frisby was simply on his way there in that timeframe.
Frisby never headed in that direction out of any concern for Brendan’s welfare.
But now Brendan is back to trying to make people believe that Brian Frisby intentionally ‘came to get him’.
That is total fiction.
Just a few hours later, on that very same day, is when Brian Frisby was RECORDED telling PNF firefighter Jason Clawson that he ( Frisby ) had simply accidentally “stumbled across” ( Frisby’s own words ) Brendan earlier that day.
And so I was on my way out. Fire starts to pick up a little bit and I can see it comin’ across the road I was supposed to go out on.
Total fiction.
Unlike the bullshit way this was depicted in the movie… Mcdonough and Frisby were able to easily make it all the way back east on that two-track road from the old grader area to the top of the Sesame clearing area ( where the GM command vehicles were staged ) without encountering any ‘fire” on that road.
Brendan’s OWN PHOTOGRAPHS, which he took at 3:49 PM after ARRIVING ( safely ) back where the GM command vehicles were staged, prove that his own recent statement is totally false.
Those photographs are here ( where they have always been ) in the public evidence folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
And… uhm… about an hour later… another weather event comes in and says “Hey… we got about an hour” before this weather storm comes in…”
Wrong.
The ‘second weather alert’ went out over the radio that day at 3:30 PM, and FBAN Byron Kimball NEVER said it was going to take an HOUR “before the weather came in”.
He specifically said the gust fronts could arrive (quote) “within the half-hour”.
He said it TWICE ( because that was IMPORTANT information ).
That ‘second weather alert’ by FBAN Byron Kimball was actually RECORDED in one of the Panebaker Air-Study videos…
———————————————————————————-
AIR STUDY VIDEO – 20130630_153014_SEAT_EP.MOV
VIDEO STARTS AT 1529.04 ( 3:29.04 PM )
+0:37 ( 1529.41 / 3:29.41 PM )
( FBAN Byron Kimball ): Operations Abel, Fire Behavior, on TAC 1.
NOTE: Even though FBAN Byron Kimball specifically ‘calls out’ to OPS1 Todd Abel, the responder to this callout sounds more like OPS2 Paul Musser than OPS1 Todd Abel.
+0:43 ( 1529.47 / 3:29.47 PM )
( OPS1 Todd Abel or OPS2 Paul Musser ): Go ahead, Byron
+0:48 ( 1529.52 / 3:29.52 PM )
( FBAN Byron Kimball ): As per U.S. National Weather Service… within the half-hour… remarkable NORTHEAST… EAST winds… possibility of as high as 50 miles an hour or likely 25 (pause) definitely 25, 35 gusting 40… beginning east / northeast within the half hour.
———————————————————————————–
So it’s a ( new ) mystery where Brendan is now getting his “one hour” time prediction in his new “story”.
“and my crew’s workin’, they’re on the fire’s edge, they’re goin’ direct, they’re workin’ with helicopters… and at this point the… the fire’s moved so far north there was another town over that was threatened…”
Also wrong ( in the context of the time of the second weather alert ).
By the time the second weather alert went out at 3:30 PM… the Granite Mountain hotshots has long since ceased doing any real work at all. From the time they ate lunch, and for the rest of the afternoon, all they did was work backwards on the paltry 100 yards of line they had cut that day and were just ‘cleaning that up’.
That remains one of the most tragic ironies of that day.
The GM crew was doing so very little useful work ‘up there’ for most of the afternoon, there really was no reason for them not to have simply come down the way they went up, move their own vehicles, and get out of harms way.
Even Air Attack Rory Collins testified “They had plenty of time to return to their vehicles”.
And so… over the radio I hear my crew and they’re… ya know… “Hey… we’re headed to our escape route. We’re on our way out”… ya know… “We’re gonna… we’re gonna meet up in town”. So I’m like “Allright. Cool. I’ll see ya in about thirty, thirty-five minutes”.
Once again… Brendan seems to be ‘testifying’ that he, himself, had a direct two-way conversation with his crew even AFTER he left his lookout position… and during the time when the SAIT said they could not “verify any direct communications” with Granite Mountain.
And we had pulled outta the… the north end of the town we were at. We started movin’ more south to where the vehicles were. Where… ya know… someone had reached out to my crew… and… “Hey… how you guys doin? You makin’ your way down?” “Yea… we’re makin’ our way down”.
Interesting.
Brendan ( if you can believe anything he says ) NOW seems to be CONFIRMING that people in fire command had directly conversed with either Marsh or Steed ( or both ) and VERIFIED that they were, in fact, making their way DOWN from the safe-black.
And this VERIFICATION of their ‘coming down’ movement(s) took place DURING the time when the SAIT said they could not “verify” any direct communications with Granite Mountain.
But the only NAME Brendan is supplying is simply “someone”.
So WHICH of the KNOWN ( and RECORDED ) ‘conversations’ with Granite Mountain that the SAIT was afraid to ‘confirm’ is Brendan himself now, seemingly, confirming?
1. The radio exchange that took place at 4:13:30 PM, when someone directly asked… “Granite Mountain… wuz yo status rat now?”… and Eric Marsh gave his ‘report’ directly back?
2. The exchange ( 14 minutes later ) between Eric Marsh and someone ( who has always sounded like OPS1 Todd Abel ), in the 4:27 PM Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble video, where Marsh is being urged to make GM “Hurry up” and get to town?
3. Some OTHER ( previously unknown? ) radio exchange between people in fire command and GM?
they put a helicopter up with a… with a paramedic in there… and they find ’em… and ya hear him and he says “I’ve touched down on the ground” and you can hear the helicopter in the background…
There is no evidence that either helicopter Ranger 58 and/or DPS Medic Eric Tarr made any such radio transmission at the point when Tarr was ‘dropped off’ at the cattle pond near the Boulder Springs Ranch.
and about two minutes later he… he’s like “We got nineteen confirmed”… I’m like… “Yea. I told ya it was nineteen guys. Whadda ya mean?”
Brendan is now making it sound like he was in direct radio contact with DPS Officer/Medic Eric Tarr ( and having an actual two-way conversation with him ) out at the deployment site.
That is, also, total fiction.
There is, of course, more.
That’s just some of the ‘low hanging fruit’ in this latest re-telling of the “story” by Mcdonough.
I think it’s time I join in on the conversation after 5+ years. Growing up with Steed, Shumate, Darell and Papa Steinbrink, it’s time that these surviving men do the right thing(s). The Desert Walker and multiple others are inches away from showing America what they thought happened DID NOT and what was quickly dismissed IS THE TRUTH. The Desert Walker and The man on the “Rim” know the truth. We all do. 3.75 up, .9 down takes you to a place where the silence screams. I was taught nothing good comes from a secret
What kind of drugs was he on for this?
Well…I guess I can use this down time free social networking space for a teaching moment. I think we lost one of my brothers from another mother Bob P, and we have now lost my other brother from another mother, RTS who is somewhere in the Pleiades being probed by aliens, and I don’t mean UDA’s,
But if either of them ever come back, we can ask them to explain what, “Reduction In Force” means (hint…it means shit can) I am really hoping Bob P. does us the honor since I got so many lectures from him how much he loves the U.S. Forest Circus (as do I, just like an abused children love their abusive parents) and how he bleeds green. Which I find very ironic and fitting since that is the same thing I said for so many years.
But…in the meantime, if you are a WLF (I have made an executive decision that I can no longer support…or be an enabler to simply make up a word…wildland. Wildland is not a word, therefore there are no WF’s Wild Land…is two words, hence, a wild land firefighter is a WLF) please take the time to read a typed facsimile of the letter that I received way back when. I don’t know exactly why I have a Word document of the original letter and not a copy of it, but that is what I have until I find the original in my files somewhere, because I am sure I have it…and much, much, much more. I have a lot of maps that shows where so many bodies are buried.
And in case you don’t have time to read the following, please allow me to sum it up for you. Buy a fucking respirator and wear it, at least when you are doing mop up. You will also thank me the next time you go into a porta potty in a fire camp that is way over do to be pumped out, just like they always are.
Or…you could just call me up and I could explain it to you while you listen to me wheez and gulp for air in mid sentences. If we talk to long however, I won’t be able to keep talking to you because my raw throat, that is always raw, will no longer allow me to communicate verbally. So…buy a fucking respirator and wear it.
Tesuque Ranger District
6130 Employment September 25, 1984
Gary Olson Duties
Forest Supervisor, Santa Fe National Forest
Based on discussions with you and Sk (Deputy Forest Supervisor) i, Gary Olson, Orlando Romero and I have worked up this plan of action with the help of Ray Page and Les Buchanan.
First: We will continue to utilize Gary in the Hotshot foreman position in all project work except fire. Gary will direct the crew until they leave on October 6. We will also be alert to the possibility of a Law Enforcement trainee position opening up in the Region.
Second: After October 6, Gary will be on detail to help Les with the Fire Management Analysis Plan for about 3 or 4 weeks; he will also be doing some law enforcment duties and finishing up some AFMO duties for the Tesuque District (BD projects; winterizing the engine; shutting down the SWFF crews).
Third: If Gary does not get another job by March 31, 1985, we will offer him the GS-462-05 Recreation Technician’s job and work him in that all summer. Gary has also stated that if by this time he does not have another job, he will flood the country with voluntary applications. The District will at that time also start some cross training in timber.
Fourth: If he has not found another job by September 30, 1985, I recommend we initiate a Reduction in Force. Gary has agreed that this is certainly a fair amount of time in which to try to find another job.
Attached is an SF 52 to advertise for a GS-07 Hotshot forement position. I expect to advertise this on October 1 and fly it for 30 days. I would like to have a new Hotshot foreman on board by December 1, 1984.
Please contact me if you have questions about this.
LOUISE A. ODEGAARD
Tesuque District Ranger
Attach I concur with your plan of action and
support your fourth recommendation.
MAYNARD T. ROST
Forest Supervisor
You know…because it’s always, “Yes…but what have you done for me lately?”
I love Stevie Nicks.. I mean…who doesn’t who was a hotshot in the 70’s, am I right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pUxsVPDPla4
The U.S. Forest Service isn’t any better, or worse. or kinder, or gentler, or more benevolent or anything other large organization either in or outside of business.
What I object to is how disengenuous and phony they can be about the whole thing. I don’t know if they still use the marketing phrase, “Forest Service Family” or not, but there isn’t any “family” inside that organization as far as I’m concerned. It’s never personal…it’s just business.
And don’t even get me started on the Bureau of Landowners and Miners, the BLM. But when it comes to disaster fire coverups, even the BLM goes with the best…your U.S. Forest Service, just read the South Canyon cover up report, I knew both men who ran that one fairly well, or at least good enough, Tom Allen and Les Rosenkrance.
All of you learned the same thing over the past five years as you watched the U.S. Forest Service cover up a fire disaster that they weren’t even responsible for. They just do it automatically as their default position out of habit because it’s what they do…always. That organization will tell a lie when they could tell the truth just to keep in practice. They practice like they fight as well just to keep in shape…they have their own institutional muscle memory.
And if you are wondering why I am not as critical of Jim Karels (SP?) it’s because he was never the power behind the YHF SAIT, he was just the pretty face thhe U.S. Forest Service put out in front to give the SAIR the State Forestry Partner Stamp Of Approval so you wouldn’t know Mike Dudley was the Wizard Of Oz little man with male intent hiding behind Karel’s smoke screen.
Karel’s was nothing more than a front man, but he did a good job of confusing everyone. They entire YHF SAIT did a very good job of confusing ALMOST everyone. If there is one thing that the USFS values more than tradition, it’s their “Partner Agencies” in State and Private Forestry.
They do love a good interagency Royal Cluster Fuck because it makes it really hard for YOU PEOPLE to figure out just what the fuck they are doing and you know…who’s on first and what’s on second until you just get tired of asking and go away.
Hint…I have sat at “The Table” as a staff flunky and gopher while they;
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder’s fork and blind-worm’s sting,
Lizard’s leg and howlet’s wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon’s blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.
Whoa now…jump back, a former grunt and ground pounder quoting William Shakespeare (from Macbeth) again?
And then after the meeting was over, I had to go out and dig the holes to hide the bodies. Hey…don’t judge me, I couldn’t be willing to die on EVERY hill could I?
Whoops, auto speller helping me again. Apparently it never heard “mal” used in a sentence before.
And if you are wondering why I am not as critical of Jim Karels (SP?) it’s because he was never the power behind the YHF SAIT, he was just the pretty face thhe U.S. Forest Service put out in front to give the SAIR the State Forestry Partner Stamp Of Approval so you wouldn’t know Mike Dudley was the Wizard Of Oz little man with “MAL” intent hiding behind Karel’s smoke screen.
Follow up true story,
My District Ranger at the time, LOUISE A. ODEGAARD
Tesuque District Ranger, was in on the first wave of women who skyrocketed to positions where they were in way over their heads in the aftermath of the ruling by a U.S. District Court Judge from the 9th Circuit who decided the U,S. Forest Service had been discriminating against women for about 100 years and so California R-5 was under a Consent Decree to promote women…stat.
The Consent Decree only technically affected R-5, but the USFS read the handwriting on the stall in the bathroom and decided they should get with the program everywhere all at once.
Louise wasn’t a bad person, she was just a terrible manager who was in way over her head. She said in her letter I agreed they should go ahead and shit can me, but I just smiled and nodded, but as soon as the meeting was over, I went down the hall of dug out the appropriate green hard bound volume of the USFS Bible…The Forest Service Manual.
I then had to file my very first, but certainly not my last, grievance because of course in the good book, I found a nice stick I sharpened up and then shoved it up District Ranger Odegard’s ass until I couldn’t see it anymore. Management LOVES the manuals when they go to FUCK employees over, but most of them are too fucking stupid and arrogant to read them when they should.
That was the LAST letter she ever wrote me and after that everything was handled by the Director Of Personnel and he and I were able to work things out between us.
A short time later, District Ranger Odegard wasn’t a District Ranger any more and she was sent to the Regional Office HALL OF SHAME for a few years. That is where they sent management fuck ups who should have been fired, but managers take care of their own. She was still sitting on a donut butt pillow when she left though because she had to have the sharp stick I shoved up her ass surgically removed.
She didn’t get shit canned because of me though, I was inconsequential, she fucked everything up. Her very last sin was actually really funny. She wore a T Shirt to the monthly Forest management team meeting where all of the District Rangers came into the Forest Supervisors Office (SO) to meet with all of the program heads and the Forest Supervisor Maynard Rost and his Deputy. Maynard came up through the ranks like everyone did in the old days from his days as a smoke jumper while going to college to get a degree in forestry and then he climbed and clawed his way over all of the competition to the top…the old fashioned way by fucking every one else over.
Anyway…I’m pretty sure ole Maynard didn’t have a sense of humor because the U.S. Forest Service never issued him one because they didn’t think he needed it. So…he never smiled, much less laughed. Maynard was the very definition of “old school.management.” I’m pretty sure he had been a deputy under Gifford Pinchot back in the day.
Anyway…Louise showed up at that meeting where everyone was in their very best U.S. Forest Service green uniform, wearing a T shirt that had the legs of two people, who were obviously engaged in sex…or coitus if you prefer and the caption on the shirt said something about enjoying your wilderness experience, by sleeping with a Forest Ranger.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AV_0PzeZRs8
Anyway…that was District Ranger Odegard’s last meeting as a member of the Santa Fe National Forest Management Team. I lost track of her though, and she probably retired as Chief Of The U.S Forest Service while I was down on the border with the BLM.
Managers are really easy to do with internal investigations because they are so ARROGANT they leave evidence and witnesses everywhere. I could do Dudley on a weekend.
Just look at how arrogant those two fire team members were, which included the Incident Commander that TRS told us about. They were just standing there shredding documents in clear violation of federal law in front of several witnesses in a fire operations center, one of which verbally objected to what they were doing to cover up their incimpetance in the 6 deaths on the Dude Fire.
It’s just that other managers almost always cover up theirs crimes for each other and rarely give the green light to do other managers.
Whoops,
TRS…RTS, who cares? Fred answers to anything when you call him.
Nope still here. I think you know what a RIF is Gary.
It can happen in any Agency and employees have the right under the RIF direction to Bump across or down. Based on Grade, Tenure and positions worked in..
Thank you Bob, and yes…that is an oversimplified, rosy and wholly inaccurate explanation of how RIF’s are implemented, which is exactly what I expected from you. Thank you for not disappointing me.
A full explanation of exactly what a RIF is and how they are implemented by the agency involved is far too complex to explain here in this format and far more than our readers want to know or can ingest.
The biggest problem with RIF’s are how they are implemented and not what they are. And like everything else, everyone including federal judges give management virtually complete control on how they “manage.”
The point is, from where I was standing, implementing a RIF with my name on it meant “shitcan.” And if your name, you stupid fuck of a water carrying schill for the US Forest Service, was attached to a RIF, you would think the very same thing. But you got lucky, good for you.
Do you know how I know I’m right and you’re wrong? Just as soon as I dug out the US Forest Service Bible and quoted passages from the Good Book, they never mentioned the term RIF again.
Instesd, they substituted, “medical disability retirement” in its place. Which I liked a lot better and so we were able to work things out between us so that it was a win/win.
shill
/SHil/Submit
INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
noun
1.
an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.
verb
1.
act or work as a shill.
Bob is a US Forest Service flunky.
flun·ky
/ˈfləNGkē/Submit
nounDEROGATORY
a liveried manservant or footman.
synonyms: liveried manservant, liveried servant, lackey, steward, butler, footman, valet, retainer, attendant, factotum, houseboy, page
“a flunkey brought us a bottle of champagne”
a person who performs relatively menial tasks for someone else, especially obsequiously.
synonyms: minion, lackey, hireling, subordinate, underling, servant, retainer, vassal; puppet, spaniel, pawn, tool, creature, instrument, cat’s paw; informalskivvy, stooge, sucker, yes-man, bitch; informalpoodle, dogsbody; informalgopher
“government flunkeys searched his offices”
Ohhhhh….I really like BITCH.
Bob is the US Forest Services’ BITCH!
And this is getting down even further into the weeds, but it is information every wild land firefighter who may find themselves in the position I was in…really needs to know.
When my “problem” started, I took the courageous step of filling out and submitting a;
CA-2 Form For Federal Workers’ Compensation. The CA-2 Workers’ Compensation Form for injured federal employees is called the Notice of Occupational Disease and Claim for Compensation for Federal Workers’ Compensation.
Most wild land firefighters almost exclusively deal with the CA1 form;
Most work-related medical conditions fall into two categories: (1) traumatic injury (Form CA-1, Federal Employee’s Notice of Traumatic Injury and Claim for Continuation of Pay/Compensation), and (2) occupational disease (Form CA-2, Notice of Occupational Disease and Claim for Compensation).Aug 29, 2014
The problem with both of these forms, is that much like how the military treats our troops, especially the Special Forces Operators, the standard treatment is to take two Motrin and DO NOT call me in the morning, or ever again about this injury because it didn’t even happen…right?
But something told me what I had was more than that, so I bucked the system and submitted the form and went to the doctor on the government dime from day 1. I continued that process every other time it happened, heavy dose of smoke – equaled – negative physical reaction.
I don’t even know that I was predisposed to the problem…I was often in different places than the crew was, out in front scouting the fire. Maybe I got a really heavy and sustainable dose of some really nasty burned and partially burned particulates like poison ivy or sumac, and that exposure caused what is the root of my problem, tissue damage to my larynx.
A normal larynx is smooth and pink (no hotshot jokes inserted here) whereas mine is reddish and more like sandpaper.
Now…here is the really important part of my story.once I had a really thick file of CA-2’s, doctors reports and witness statements I submitted the file to the Office Of Workers Compensation Program (OWCP). Everyone who has ever dealt with the dreaded OWCP knows they are in business primarily for one objective, to deny most, if not all claims submitted to them just like your asshole insurance company.
But I’ll be damned that after a few years and some more back and forth, I actually got a letter from them that stated in part, “The OWCP on behalf of the American People do hereby and forever accept that your condition was as the result of your employment and therefore, we own it.”
And that is why that stupid fuckin’ US Forest Service Manager had to have that sharp stick I shoved up her ass surgically removed.
HEY…GENIUS, YOU CAN’T SHITCAN SOMEONE FOR A PROBLEM YOU OWN…YOU STUPID FUCK!
NOW…HERES A NEWS FLASH FOR EVERYONE WILD LAND FIREFIGHTING STUPID FUCK WHO WORKS AT MEDC OR AS A SAFETY OFFICER, OR IN ANY OF THOSE CUBICLES AND OFFICES WHERE YOU GET PAID THE BIG BUCKS TO WATCH OUT FOR WILD LAND FIREFIGHTER SAFETY, YOU STUPID FUCKS…HAVE YOU EVER ACTUALLY BEEN ON THE LINE? AND IF YOU HAVE, HOW LONG HAS IT BEEN?
PLEASE REVIEW THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF MOP UP YOU WILL FIND ON THIS PAGE.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
Does that look okay to you? It’s kind of like “How Big Is Big Enough Because Size Does Matter!” (C. G. Olson, 2018). And yes, I think my bumper sticker slogan is totally hilarious because of the double entendre that clearly demonstrates just how very fuckin’ clever I really am.
What do Asian people in Asia know that you don’t, you stupid fucks?
https://qz.com/299003/a-quick-history-of-why-asians-wear-surgical-masks-in-public/
And guess what else, once you provide everyone with a surgical mask, at a minimum, to replace the time honored and mostly ineffective “bandito method” of using a handkerchief, you are going to have to make it part of the mandatory Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) just like hardhats, fire shelters, fire clothes, minimum 8’ leather boots, gloves etc. otherwise the wild land firefighter culture will demand that only pussies (non gender specific) wear the fuckin’ things otherwise they won’t. The wild land firefighter culture wouldn’t even tolerate wearing hard hats as PPE in lieu of baseball/trucker caps 🧢 if it wasn’t MANDATORY!
You fuckin’ people (wild land firefighting agencies) should start paying me big bucks and then maybe you would listen to me?
Oh…and one more thing.
In general, what Asian people in Asia know that you stupid fucks don’t, is that breathing bad air with bad things in it, especially when it isn’t filtered in some way, is bad for you. So…you shouldn’t do that.
And just FYI, the way respirators work is problematic for wild land firefighters to wear much of the time.
There are diaphragms (no hotshot jokes inserted here) flaps or valves that open and close when you breathe.
So….when yo take a breath in, the valve opens up and the air you take in is drawn through the filters that remove most of the unhealthy particulates and even the woodsmoke smell. They are cheap to buy, the filters are cheap to replace and they work very well, even back in my day.
And then when you exhale, the air you expell go closes the flaps and the air goes out bypassing the filters.
The problem comes when you are breathing hard because of heavy work, especially humping it up a mountain. And the used air gets mixed with the bad air and it’s like breathing into a paper bag, you will pass out.
The air you take in also requires more effort because your lungs are providing the power to draw the air through the filters unlike the SCBA technology structural FIRE MEN wear. Respirators are a passive system, cheap and effective, but passive.
However, and fortunately…the most important and critical times wild land firefighters should be filtering the air they breathe, is during mop up when they are moving slowly, methodically and therefore breathing in a rhythmically (no hotshot jokes inserted here) manner isn’t a problem.
It doesn’t fix the entire problem, but I bet it will fix more than 80%, or even more of the problem in its entirety, it did for me and it extended my time on the line.
I used one for years and I swear by them…that should be enough for you to hear….you stupid fucks!
Do you understand who I was?
Okay…just one more thing.
I still love the U.S. Forest Service just as an abused child loves their abusive parents, and I am very proud of the 14 years (years & seasons) I spent working for three different National Forests in two states.
And the day I left to go work for the BLM was one of the saddest days of my life. 😞 😔 😢
Whoops, make that fifteen (15) years (years & seasons)…1974 – 1988.
OK…just one more.
I know YOU PEOPLE know whom and what I was because you made me whom and what I was. I was your creation. A Type IA Interagency Hotshot Crew Boss, one of the best of the best, the tip of your spear, the source of your pride and joy and the sending units claim to fame for ten (10) years, And a crew boss for seven (7) years of those years.
And on a side note, I not only worked my way up from the bottom on one hotshot crew, but I founded a second hotshot crew and wait for it…I was the youngest hotshot crew boss in history, a record that will never be broken because now (and for quite some time now) hotshot crew bosses actually have to be very highly qualified for those positions BEFORE they get put into them.
Whoops, I forgot to brag about how old I was when I first became a hotshot crew boss…23.
Whoops, a better quote would have been, “I was your creation and in many ways, I still am. So…shut the fuck up and listen up.”
I’m sorry Bob, it’s just that I’m in no mood for your bullshit tonight.
Bob…do you know when RTS the Star Child is due back from circling Uranus? I really miss the guy…I hope the aliens aren’t still PROBING him. And if they are…I hope he is at least enjoying it?
Oh…and one more thing. I went through my photos and selected some more that clearly demonstrate why wild land firefighters shoukd all be issued respirators.
They could be worn in all of the photos shown. Like I said, they can be worn most of the time. I used to let mine dangle from my neck on one strap and then simple hold it up to my face for a few minutes when there was a bad wind shift and the smoke got really bad.
Please pay special attention to the photos of mop up. In spite of what hotshot publicists will tell you, the bread and butter of hotshot crews is mop up too and it hot line cutting.
http://ourfiregods.com/mopup.html
I also picked out a few photos to show everyone what it looks like as wild land firefighters hump it TOWARDS the smoke column, when everyone else is running in the other direction.
And NOT hot line cutting.
So…I will repeat my question.
Do those photos of wild land firefighters doing mop up with nothing more than bandannas worn bandito style look like they are working and everything is okay to you?
Or does it look to you like they could use some cheap, passive respirators? Nobody should ever ask why I have a problem. The only question that shoukd ever be ask is, “Why doesn’t EVERYONE have the very same problem?”
At least I guess the ineffective bandana method is still being used by most wild land firefighters today? Nobody has told me otherwise in the last five years when this subject has come up before.
Whoops,
“….cheap, and HIGHLY EFFECTIVE, passive respirators.”
Gary, I am sorry to hear about your lung issues bur I don’t expect the family foriest service to give it much consideration. Your health deterioration was never their concern–even
though they know their retardant chemical solution is one of the world’s best cilia killers around. The fish die immediately, but we lucky humans can stand much lung destruction.
I proved that with having one lung shot through with a 12 guage point blank and the other lung with a mass in it. I was wheezing at fifty yards when I thought it was another heart attack and admitted myself to Mountain View in Las Cruces due to additional chest pains. The catheter to my heart and the Cardiologist said things are clear there so a CT scan showed the mass on the left lung. I have not seen a Pumonologist yet but in the mentime after the hospitalization that blast to the right lung happened. The Pulmonologist is the next visit.
Well I would blame the many hikes I made though the burned retardant –my lungs had already been compromised from breathing diesel smoke for about a year that the United Nuclear Underground Uranium mine on the 900 ft working level. Young buggies with diesal engines were rampant and their scrubbers were seldom working properly so you had a smokey drift and working area just about all time. These days I can not stand to be behind any diesel vehicle–even to the point I have to pull of or pass. So conditions of mining had already compromised my lung capacity, then suddenly after the Yarnell dumps of retardant in the copious amounts of 500, 000 gallons around Yarnell in 2013 and again in 2015, we find all ages of people down with lung problems, heart attacks and cancer. So I am not the only victim of the dumps. The deaths of the 19 GMHS are only the tip of the iceberg concerning deaths directly and indirectly connected to both the 2013 Yarnell fire and the 2015 Tenderfoot fire that caused the chemical inundation of Yarnell and the near vicinity.
Yet in all this, I would not have known had I not referenced what the chemicals concerning retardant are and more what they do once spread upon a burning wild fire. And despite those health ruining chemicals known, there are anywhere between 5 and 15% of unknown chemicals hidden under the trade law. Secrets they keep while infesting the environment and your health–yet fully legal–a legal right to ruin your health and murder in the result. If you want to make rat poison spread some of the ammonium phosphate on some burning embers–but I do not advise it–cyanide is deadly where even one sixtieth of a teaspoon will do a 160 pound person in. A few parts per million in the air you breath will start a cancer.
So Gary, and all you that suffer later on deserve a big compensation for all that you have suffered yet never became apparent until later in life. But don’t hold your breath for a just compensation from the masters of cover up. They rather continue to make their billions spreading their agent orange concoction than own up to the truth of what it is.
ary, I am sorry to hear about your lung issues bur I don’t expect the family foriest service to give it much consideration. Your health deterioration was never their concern–even
though they know their retardant chemical solution is one of the world’s best cilia killers around. The fish die immediately, but we lucky humans can stand much lung destruction.
I proved that with having one lung shot through with a 12 guage point blank and the other lung with a mass in it. I was wheezing at fifty yards when I thought it was another heart attack and admitted myself to Mountain View in Las Cruces due to additional chest pains. The catheter to my heart and the Cardiologist said things are clear there so a CT scan showed the mass on the left lung. I have not seen a Pumonologist yet but in the mentime after the hospitalization that blast to the right lung happened. The Pulmonologist is the next visit.
Well I would blame the many hikes I made though the burned retardant –my lungs had already been compromised from breathing diesel smoke for about a year that the United Nuclear Underground Uranium mine on the 900 ft working level. Young buggies with diesal engines were rampant and their scrubbers were seldom working properly so you had a smokey drift and working area just about all time. These days I can not stand to be behind any diesel vehicle–even to the point I have to pull of or pass. So conditions of mining had already compromised my lung capacity, then suddenly after the Yarnell dumps of retardant in the copious amounts of 500, 000 gallons around Yarnell in 2013 and again in 2015, we find all ages of people down with lung problems, heart attacks and cancer. So I am not the only victim of the dumps. The deaths of the 19 GMHS are only the tip of the iceberg concerning deaths directly and indirectly connected to both the 2013 Yarnell fire and the 2015 Tenderfoot fire that caused the chemical inundation of Yarnell and the near vicinity.
Yet in all this, I would not have known had I not referenced what the chemicals concerning retardant are and more what they do once spread upon a burning wild fire. And despite those health ruining chemicals known, there are anywhere between 5 and 15% of unknown chemicals hidden under the trade law. Secrets they keep while infesting the environment and your health–yet fully legal–a legal right to ruin your health and murder in the result. If you want to make rat poison spread some of the ammonium phosphate on some burning embers–but I do not advise it–cyanide is deadly where even one sixtieth of a teaspoon will do a 160 pound person in. A few parts per million in the air you breath will start a cancer.
So Gary, and all you that suffer later on deserve a big compensation for all that you have suffered yet never became apparent until later in life. But don’t hold your breath for a just compensation from the masters of cover up. They rather continue to make their billions spreading their agent orange retardant than have you know the truth.
ject)
Inbox
x
Tex Gilligan
Wed, Feb 27, 7:03 PM (23 hours ago)
to me
Gary, I am sorry to hear about your lung issues bur I don’t expect the family foriest service to give it much consideration. Your health deterioration was never their concern–even
though they know their retardant chemical solution is one of the world’s best cilia killers around. The fish die immediately, but we lucky humans can stand much lung destruction.
I proved that with having one lung shot through with a 12 guage point blank and the other lung with a mass in it. I was wheezing at fifty yards when I thought it was another heart attack and admitted myself to Mountain View in Las Cruces due to additional chest pains. The catheter to my heart and the Cardiologist said things are clear there so a CT scan showed the mass on the left lung. I have not seen a Pumonologist yet but in the mentime after the hospitalization that blast to the right lung happened. The Pulmonologist is the next visit.
Well I would blame the many hikes I made though the burned retardant –my lungs had already been compromised from breathing diesel smoke for about a year that the United Nuclear Underground Uranium mine on the 900 ft working level. Young buggies with diesal engines were rampant and their scrubbers were seldom working properly so you had a smokey drift and working area just about all time. These days I can not stand to be behind any diesel vehicle–even to the point I have to pull of or pass. So conditions of mining had already compromised my lung capacity, then suddenly after the Yarnell dumps of retardant in the copious amounts of 500, 000 gallons around Yarnell in 2013 and again in 2015, we find all ages of people down with lung problems, heart attacks and cancer. So I am not the only victim of the dumps. The deaths of the 19 GMHS are only the tip of the iceberg concerning deaths directly and indirectly connected to both the 2013 Yarnell fire and the 2015 Tenderfoot fire that caused the chemical inundation of Yarnell and the near vicinity.
Yet in all this, I would not have known had I not referenced what the chemicals concerning retardant are and more what they do once spread upon a burning wild fire. And despite those health ruining chemicals known, there are anywhere between 5 and 15% of unknown chemicals hidden under the trade law. Secrets they keep while infesting the environment and your health–yet fully legal–a legal right to ruin your health and murder in the result. If you want to make rat poison spread some of the ammonium phosphate on some burning embers–but I do not advise it–cyanide is deadly where even one sixtieth of a teaspoon will do a 160 pound person in. A few parts per million in the air you breath will start a cancer.
So Gary, and all you that suffer later on deserve a big compensation for all that you have suffered yet never became apparent until later in life. But don’t hold your breath for a just compensation from the masters of cover up. They rather continue to make their billions spreading their agent orange retardant than have you know the truth.
Sonny,
I would like to send you an email, but I must have your old one because I got a “failure to deliver notice.” Please send me an email at [email protected]
Thank you, Gary
Gary, Yes I did send one–should be [email protected] for my email.
Gary I hope that book is coming along well. I know it will be a great read the way you present things. Experience is the best teacher–and I can be certain it will be of great value to the young fire fighter and a good education for the citizen who desires to understand the wild land fire fighting situation.
There are so many things that are common sense–yet education is a necessity for anyone attempting to work in the wild land fire fighting world. I do believe had the young men available and required to read books such as you will write and a few others from long time wild land fire fighters they would be alive today. What was done to them was totally senseless with no rhyme or reason except someone wanting to shine at the expense of needless risk of those men’s lives.
It is necessary for men of your experience to write and instruct on these points. When I was drafted, I would not listen to a 2nd lieutenant that was even younger than I and had no war time experience. His education gave him a name “90 day wonder” and you knew that without the experience he would likely get you killed. The old battle hardened seargent with WW2, Korea, and Vietnam experience was the man to listen to–he knew how to fight and stay alive and would do his best to keep his men that way.
So I see the wild land fire fighting situation the same. I do not believe Marsh and Steed had the long time experience that would have kept those men alive. Furthermore it was apparent that the men were brainwashed into believing their bosses were competent. They were not and the men were not savvy enough to resist their decision. If they had survived they to a man should have been fired from wild land fire fighting until they had learned enough to follow basic safety procedures that are so simple that even a person like myself could understand them.
And I think it is well to keep things simple–that AR-15 can be broken down in less than 10 seconds–my son has a sig saurer in 308 caliber and when i showed him how you can do that he was amazed. But if you do not know the procedure you are bound to spread that turkey roaster blanked over yourself right in the middle of a manzanita patch. Yet if those fellows understood the immense release of energy–something I learned after the fire from the Wooton and Morrison article, they certainly would have been hesitant to get themselves trapped in that manzanita.
Even that Cowboy had warned them–he had that common sense to tell them now you boys don’t get caught down there in that manzanita with that fire nearby. And we know a mile or even three miles is nearby in 45 mph winds going uphill and funneled into a canyon. Good lord some of those fires in manzanita and shrub trees was said to reach velocities of over 100mph–but even at 20 mph, three miles is only 9 minutes. So if Marsh saw that fire about a mile away where it was said to be coming around the north ridge of that death bowl, then they had 3 minutes to prepare or run like hell to the boulder patch. You can not make any time in manzanita although they has a bit of sparseness if they crossed the sand draw they deployed next to. Yet it was ignorance and stupidity mixed that killed those men–stupidity on the part of their bosses–and that may have ran higher than Marsh and ignorance on the part of the young men they killed.
I did not have to be educated, I saw that fire explode and knew there was one option only–get out of harms way and pronto. On the two track they only needed to switch over to the other side of the mountain–and plenty of copters were going over to tell them there was a safe zone by getting to the other side of the Weavers== but it seems that like the Juniper Tree ordeal–someone wanted to be written up as protectors of Yarnell while waving Pulaski sticks.
That Juniper tree ordeal sounds like a promotion made by someone wanting to make out that the GMHS were set to defend wild fires and how woefully wrong that was. I hope someone hikes to that tree and tells me how it lasted thousands of years and scores of fires without the aid of GMHS or any other hot shot crew. Anyway from the standpoint of common sense, it makes no sense–but yes the story does because they were trying to become wild land fire fighters.
Maybe the lesson will sink in if enough of the real wild land fire fighters point out the malady of allowing bosses to run crews without due care and plenty of experience on how to keep your men alive–mainly by the common sense safety rules but because the old timer has the knowledge and instincts to keep his men safe.
The state owes those kids a bundle–every one should have free education and plenty of reimbursement for their woes. I am not sure what they got but if it was a paltry $50,000 then the state is shamed for their lack of care. After all the hiring practices of allowing dangerous people to kill their men lies on the shoulders of the State of Arizona in this case. But as previous fires, they will do everything in their power including plenty of fat cat attorneys and redactions, cover up and deceptions to keep from taking responsibility so they do not pay. They rather spend a million and more on memorials and make heroes of a few at the expense of the lives of the future wild land fire fighter and the loved ones who have suffered so horribly.
These are my opinions–I am not a wild land fire fighter–But I opine they are the warriors attempting to do their best and deserve the title as heroes, Yet those needlessly risk others for their own edification certainly do not belong in the industry nor do they deserve to be called heroes.
It is a bit of a jest to see that Trump is going to get his border wall in. Well he needs now to wall off the Pacific and the Atlantic ocean as well–more dope and illegal immigrants can come in that way as well–and what about Canada? There have been a number of terrorists using that route so we need a fence there as well. Better get our missiles ready for those planes coming in from Mexico as well so we need a top notch radar detection system as well as plenty of Military along the new fence to find tunnels. But the public will buy into it for some at least.
I am not a Trump fan–after watching his TV program a few I was convinced he was a tyrant and when the election came up and since it looked like the Clinton gang was on the take it seemed we had a toss up as to who would be the most undesirable. Maybe I should have voted for Hillary as much as she left a bad taste for her antics– Great Wall of China in the modern age. And in another way, if we continue to rowl people up we might need those fences.
About the burn at the Shrine–whether it happened or not in my mind is a moot point in my mind. I believe it did because I saw the video and because it would appear to be the thing to do. If it is proven, then it has nothing to do with the reason those men died since they had already subjected themselves to a situation bound to kill them whether that fire came from the Shrine or came from the main fire.
Donut, despite his refusal to speak honestly and forthright from the beginning about what he knew and heard gave us the reason why those men died in a simple statement he made to and interviewer. He expressed his disdain for safety rules as old fashioned-In other words he thought it best to just wing it. Well if you had wings and could fly out a good thing, but the rules, as simple as they are would have saved the men had they followed them.
Since I understand that Donut had been around for about three seasons, his attitude must have reflected the group attitude toward safety rules. But not only that the men were brainwashed to believe their bosses to be competent.. So the disdain for safety procedures and the belief that your bosses would do the right thing and knew how to keep you alive were the deadly mix that killed the men.
But of course you could add some more to it but keeping it on the simple side I did not mention that there were other factors causing the bosses to disregard the safety rules . And that too is subordinate to the actual infraction of life saving rules that were shunned with an exclamation mark since all were broken.
So Donut was a prime example of the attitude of the crew–and if you are religious you might say God left him there to witness to the people why the men died. Donut was and is also a prime example of how the wild land fire people continue to hide truth and information. He certainly fits the profile.
Yet the elders in the wild land fire fighting community are not fooled. They continue to hammer at the truth–their intentions are well founded and will save some lives despite the cover ups.
Articles written and published by JD from various retired wild land fire fighting crew bosses and others are not to be taken lightly. If you are a young fire fighter and have not read these articles then you will miss information that tucked away in your mind will some day save your life. Knowledge can and will be a life saver to many–not those with disdain for the wisdom of the elders in that profession and their organized and simple rules to keep the young and old wild land fire fighter alive.
I would bet a dollar to a donut that Donut would have been stymied if the interviewer had asked him to name one of the safety rules of the wild land fire fighting occupation. Maybe he still does not know them.
Sonny said:
About the burn at the Shrine–whether it happened or not in my mind is a moot point in my mind. I believe it did because I saw the video and because it would appear to be the thing to do. If it is proven, then it has nothing to do with the reason those men died since they had already subjected themselves to a situation bound to kill them whether that fire came from the Shrine or came from the main fire.
My Reply-
Are you in good health/finance to fly to Washington DC to be at my side at the presentation as the “hikers”? I can guarantee you will be proud of me how hard I worked and it is not whether it happened or not in any one’s mind and it is the point …Your belief it did…is right…there is people with documentation. You are wrong to state it has nothing to do with the reason those men died…Yes, so may fire orders were broken but keep the faith…I really worked hard to get to this point that even if something happened to me the right people got it to ensure it is never lost. God’s time is His time…please keep this in prayer. This needs to be a real power point presentation on Extreme Fire Behavior…keep the faith…we are there- Sonny, I would not place this out in tidbits for the world so there was time stamps on IM for all to see “how long” I held on it to gain further documentation….I never did it to tease like Gary claims but so as you know when we were on the trails I did not always have the technology near me so I was able to pop on and have 1 place to time stamp the journey key points…so I could always go back and time stamp…I…I…I…not the world…I used this site as a tool for me so I could later on see when I learned different key stuff…
Now for the people who were on the YH Fire
I did give you all the chance
I know why you kept it in
I saw the journey up close
I know what you faced
But it will not be in a book or movie but it is coming out if not by me- someone will carry it on…
God has the plan as Willis said…
I even gave Willis and Morin the opportunities to be frank…
I will not apologize for T R U T H-
but all the leaders who brainwashed these people
I am sorry for that.
Well you misunderstood me Joy. I did not say the burn at the Shrine was not the cause. I said it was a moot point meaning that whether it did or the main fire did was not the point. The point was that Marsh and Steed had put themselves and their men in a position to die either way, whether from the Shrine or from the Main fire. They had broken all common sense rules and that was established early on–the reason they died.
Like you, because I said from way back that the Shrine might have been the fire that killed them, I still feel that way and agree that it may well have been the source. Those men were not playing with those torches I don’t think for just practice–but even if they were, they were setting a burn. The distance and wind direction makes me believe the source was more likely the Shrine–45mph gusts and it was much shorter distance from the Shrine to the men than it was from the Peeples Valley fire –A fire started in the Shrine area and above would have been only a mile and a half or so and with that kind of wind would have gone up hill at a tremendous velocity. It would have covered that in maybe even less than 3 minutes–so timing that burn would be crucial to knowing if indeed it were the source that killed the men. Of course even if had not, the other fire would have been right on them as well.
But what really killed the men were bosses that played the stupid game of breaking every possible safety rule in the book. How can you do that knowing your crew’s lives are at risk and absolutely for no good reason at all? The men themselves by Donut’s example had no knowledge of the safety rules and if they did they regarded them as superfluous addition to their work as wild land fire fighters. Also, they seemed to have been somehow brainwashed into believing that Steed was the “Greek God” of firefighting–he survived one time by fighting off bears with his chainsaw. Chainsaw massacre of bears, now a massacre by fire that he could not fight off with anything. So the men did not think for themselves since they had so much belief in the competence of Steed and Marsh and whoever was above those two. But Marsh, Steed and others involved did fail miserably since they were willing to put their own interests above the lives of their men.
People want to believe that men with Pulaski’s could actually do something about a wild land fire that we were watching–when I said there on that two track that an army of a thousand men could do nothing to stop that beast. We did not need to know that the thing was releasing energy of an Atom bomb every fifteen minutes–we by our witness could see that nothing but let the Big Dog eat as wild land fire fighters say was appropriate.
So yes I do agree with you and my suspicions since seeing the video are the same. Yet, since the video was redacted soon after it was aired, and since even that post of putting the half section–or was it a section Joy?–I remember the date June 16 and you showing me the official stamp–but half section or section next to Helms and covering that entire bowl of death had been officially restricted with the highest restriction possible and rightly so. Yet even that paper can nowhere again be found.
So yes, I would be going to Washington with you if my testimony meant anything and could help bring forth the facts of what actually occurred at Yarnell to kill 19 GMHS.
There will always be a sadness in my heart for the young ones whom have lost their fathers in this tragedy. They have been lied too and I feel dealt a rotten hand by deceit. They deserve much more than they were given–there is fault with the State and Forest Service on this one and especially the managers of the Yarnell Hill Fire and those that allow people unsuited to be bosses to be hired to kill their men.
I can tell you there have been ship captains that have done time for killing their crews simply because they did not do due diligence to their job as captain. Due diligence was missing with Marsh and Steed many times before the Yarnell incident. Yet they have been given a pass and get out of jail free card–maybe because they are dead with the men–yet they are every bit as guilty as those sea captains that killed their crews. That should be public information, yet it has been covered like the big bad wolf in sheep’s clothing.
I think if the truth becomes well know publicly, there will have to be a change–and likely it will have to be through people in high political positions–someone with a capacity for compassion and someone who genuinely cares for future wild land fire fighter lives and the children and spouses, mothers and fathers and friends of those young deceased heroes–wrongly killed as they were.
Tex Gilligan
7:03 PM (1 hour ago)
to me
Gary, I am sorry to hear about your lung issues bur I don’t expect the family foriest service to give it much consideration. Your health deterioration was never their concern–even
though they know their retardant chemical solution is one of the world’s best cilia killers around. The fish die immediately, but we lucky humans can stand much lung destruction.
I proved that with having one lung shot through with a 12 guage point blank and the other lung with a mass in it. I was wheezing at fifty yards when I thought it was another heart attack and admitted myself to Mountain View in Las Cruces due to additional chest pains. The catheter to my heart and the Cardiologist said things are clear there so a CT scan showed the mass on the left lung. I have not seen a Pumonologist yet but in the mentime after the hospitalization that blast to the right lung happened. The Pulmonologist is the next visit.
Well I would blame the many hikes I made though the burned retardant –my lungs had already been compromised from breathing diesel smoke for about a year that the United Nuclear Underground Uranium mine on the 900 ft working level. Young buggies with diesal engines were rampant and their scrubbers were seldom working properly so you had a smokey drift and working area just about all time. These days I can not stand to be behind any diesel vehicle–even to the point I have to pull of or pass. So conditions of mining had already compromised my lung capacity, then suddenly after the Yarnell dumps of retardant in the copious amounts of 500, 000 gallons around Yarnell in 2013 and again in 2015, we find all ages of people down with lung problems, heart attacks and cancer. So I am not the only victim of the dumps. The deaths of the 19 GMHS are only the tip of the iceberg concerning deaths directly and indirectly connected to both the 2013 Yarnell fire and the 2015 Tenderfoot fire that caused the chemical inundation of Yarnell and the near vicinity.
Yet in all this, I would not have known had I not referenced what the chemicals concerning retardant are and more what they do once spread upon a burning wild fire. And despite those health ruining chemicals known, there are anywhere between 5 and 15% of unknown chemicals hidden under the trade law. Secrets they keep while infesting the environment and your health–yet fully legal–a legal right to ruin your health and murder in the result. If you want to make rat poison spread some of the ammonium phosphate on some burning embers–but I do not advise it–cyanide is deadly where even one sixtieth of a teaspoon will do a 160 pound person in. A few parts per million in the air you breath will start a cancer.
So Gary, and all you that suffer later on deserve a big compensation for all that you have suffered yet never became apparent until later in life. But don’t hold your breath for a just compensation from the masters of cover up. They rather continue to make their billions spreading their agent orange retardant than have you know the truth.
Thanks to Sonny for his most recent help on my book. I am writing about my primary motivating factor in participating in this thread. And unlike what some of you have followed my five years of random thoughts maybthink, my primary motivating factor is my own father’s violent and tragicallyearly death in the workplace. And not my role in the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster because I was taught by the system to be indifferent to those deaths.
IMPORTANT PUBLIC NOTICE…BASED ON TOPICAL NEWS REPORTS
As I have stated before, I am a political independent who is primarily motivated by economic issues because if people aren’t economically secure, their lives and their families lives can’t be secure. And most of my opposition to Trump is based on him stealing what little the working and middle classes have left and giving it to the ultra rich since the 1% own 50% of the worlds wealth. And that is due in large part to how the tax laws are written by the ultra rich so they can not only maintain, but increase their share.
That being said, I am strongly opposed to him being impeached because there are so many of his supporters who have lots of guns and bullets and I think a civil war, at least on the local level in many communities and widespread violence will follow because of the violence that he has gone to great lengths to promulgate and encourage within his base group of supporters and this was recently proven by the Coast Guard Officer who was arrested in Maryland for preparing to do just that,
So…NO IMPEACHMENT…wait until the next time we can vote and let that decide what comes next our country because in a worst case scenario, the left wing will just get mad and throw bricks of tofu at the riot police and it will be unlikely anyone will die during those protests.
And back to the immediate business at hand, I think the single saddest thing that I heard after the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster was when Desiree Steed, Jesse’s wife, composed herself enough to break the news to Caden and Cambria, her two kids. “Daddy had an accident at work,” she told them. “He’s in heaven and he can’t come home.”
So…”Let’s be careful out there.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_pIkkzDagsY
Position Clarification;
When I have expressed my support and enthusiasm for the real time tracking of resources on fires, I was only thinking of using that tool for logistical and support purposes, not line and operational decisions.
This is because I think that if lazy borderline worthless overhead can sit on their asses and sip coffee around the salamanders in fire camp and monitor their divisions and areas of operations on a computer screen…they will.
I was thinking of using that tool to decide whether Crew A should hike out to Drop Point B to be picked up by military 6×6 transport truck C, to be taken back to fire camp or whether Helicopter D, should take their packs etc. to helispot E, for them to spike out in a coyote camp because they won’t e able to get back to fire camp until it’s time to turn around and start back to where they left off on their previous shift. Or whether ops should have water tender A, meet Engine B at intersection C, rather than D, to refill their tank.
You know…strategic long term type planning and logistics problems rather easily than short term tactical line operations decisions because you need to get ONE thing really clear…there ain’t no such thing as close tactical air support in wildland firefighting and there will never be such a thing because if it is there, it will be more likely to knock your ass down and out and then the fire will only slow down for a very brief period of time before it burns you alive rather than ever help you.
Anybody who ever thinks, much less makes a tactical decision, for one even second that there is even the remote possibility that anything is ever coming to back them up much less save them on the fire line…are just dead men walking.
But…there is a lot of wasted time, energy and precious limited resources trying to figure out if who is on first, or if who is on second. If Walmart ran their business the way logistics are run on major project fires, they would go out of business….IMHO.
And one of my favorite threads to post to illustrate this point is the following;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpxkyTc9Z38
Big project fires as usually one big Royal Cluster Fuck where SNAFU is the rule of the day because the fire is being managed you know…by CHAOS. Although the longer the fire goes on, the smoother things become so that by it is time to demobilize the fure, everything is running pretty good, all things considered.
I guess there would be some application for real time tracking beyond logistics, but that thought SCARES me and I am normally fearless. That concept is way over my pay grade to even think about. So…
Although given the weakness and frailty of human nature, maybe that dangerous situation would be the inevitable ending position? Maybe that entire concept is the very definition of a slippery slope?
I’m just glad I am a former ground pounder and grunt who gets to sit in the cheap seats and just lob flash bangs rather than being a decision maker.
When I described my scenario, I only described a big monitor in the plans tent and maybe one in logistics and transportation. I wasn’t thinking of everybody having one attached with a carabiner to their web gear.
But given the availability of LCD screens on phones and tablets with easily downloadable programs, maybe that is the inevitable outcome?
If we ever get to the point of thinking of VIRTUAL eyes on the fire as a lookout, it will be a very dangerous situation IMHO, at least that’s how it looks from my vantage point in the cheap seats anyway.
And of course just because I’m always writing that all overhead are lazy borderline worthless dumb asses doesn’t mean that all of them are.
In fact, most of them are pretty good firefighters. It was always just safer to assume that they were all lazy borderline worthless dumb asses rather than trying to sort them out on the line.
And even if I knew them from way back, it was still my crew and I didn’t pay any attention to them except for broad general guidance and overall objectives.
Fortunately…all of them I can remember bought into that same philosophy, they had their place and I had mine. Their job was to say, “If you need anything let me know…otherwise, have a good shift”
You know…except for my golden oldie story about those three dildoes on the Scott Fire down on the Coronado. The fire boss, the line boss and the division boss…fuck them. I won that round. In fact, I my 30 year race to the finish line is over…I won.
Which is why it was so unfair to the point of being outrageous to put Captain Steed into the position Arizona Department of Forestry put him in.
And as I keep writing, that nullified such a critical check and balance in the system and was certainly a significant factor in the deaths of the crew.
I honestly don’t know what I would have done if I would ever have been put in his boots. I’m afraid I would have done just what he did. Because you know, if my crew boss ever declared it to be Easter…I immediately started lookin’ for eggs.
That’s just how hotshots roll. The crew boss is the shot caller, no if’s and’s or but’s. If you don’t believe that in the first place, you have no business being on that crew. Find another job, or another crew boss to work for.
And FYI…it STILL boggles my mind that we had a hotshot crew boss who was running around out there who was not only vague about his true location and intentions, but he was deliberately MISLEADING!
And just when I start to get my head around that…I remember there was an Operations Chief running around out there who knew that particular hotshot crew boss so well…he didn’t believe him when the crew boss told him where he was and what his intentions were, so he double checked with him!
The system will collapse in on itself if that ever becomes SOP in the real world and not just in the alternative universe that somehow was created special for Eric Marsh, Darrell Willis and the Yavapai County Cosa Nostra ( Our Thing) to freely operate in without the normal checks and balances that are built into the system…in this day and age of professionalized hotshot crews.
OMGosh! In my day…sure.
Whoops…I meant to write the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra.
Oh…and one more thing. The Prescott Fire Droartment gets a pass in my book also because I have decided I was wrong. The PFD wasn’t relevant to what happened to our crew because they were truly a wild land based wildfire, firefighting crew.
Yes…there was some minor, “Rusk a lot to save a lot bullshit influence on the crew on the periphery, but I think in the final analysis, it was minor.
There were just too many ex U.S. Forest Service hotshots and wild land firefighters in senior positions on the crew for them to be anything else.
They were one of us and they belonged in OUR HOUSE. I would have been proud to have worked with everyone on the crew except fir Marsh. If…I could have kept up with them.
And that is just how I feel.
Sigh….Prescott Fire DEPARTMENT. RISK a lot to save a lot bullshit influence on the crew on the periphery, but I think in the final analysis, it was minor.
Oh…and one more thing now that my anger has cooled from white hot to a dull red over the years and I can now be more objective.
I wrote a little ways downstream that I am going to give the YHFD Fire Team a Pass and here is the Readers Digest version of why, even though I do have a lot written on the subject.
They followed their training and they were within policy, the scope and authority of their employment and they used best practices at the time.
Should they have done better….YES.
Did we expect more from them…YES.
But…I can’t condemn anyone who follows their training and are within policy, the scope and authority of their employment and who use best practices at the time.
That’s just the way Internal Investigations work.
And now…I can work to do what I can to change all of that so the next time it happens, and there will be a next time, I can condemn those who will be responsible.
In other words, I condemn the SYSTEM that they were and most of them still are a part of.
It was a systemic and system wide failure, meaning the specific part failed and then the entire organization failed on top of it because at its core…it’s rotten and needs to be rebuilt.
So…FIX IT!
Oh….and to the City Of Prescott, Mayor Kuykendall, Prescott City Council, Darrell Willis and Friends, the State of Arizona Legislature, State Forestry et al except for the worker bees like Shumate, the U.S. Forest Service, Dudley Do Wrong & Company, and the SYSTEM in general, I just want you to all rest assured that in my book…YOU ARE ALL FUCKED!
And the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Clown 🤡 Posse and their their Chief Clown, Scott Mascher, they are on my shit list too for their BOTCHED 19 death investigations.
And because they gave a new meaning to the term…EPIC FAIL for their NON EVACUATION of all of the citizens who pay their salaries and for their CLOWN CARS to drive around in.
They got so fucking lucky they didn’t end up being responsible for making half of the people in Yarnell and it’s suburbs, you know…DEAD! But DEAD in a really bad way, by being burned alive.
With great POWER comes great RESPONSIBILITY! And by our Founding Fathers design, no one has more authority in Yavapai County than the Sheriff…nobody. The FBI has to line up and take a number to kiss his ass.
Get your shit together and come up with some EVACUATION plans for the next time you STUPID FUCKS!
And I want to know what the hell happened to RTS…please don’t tell me the aliens are still PROBING him?
OMGosh…he is going to bitch (non gender specific) just like a little a little bitch (non gender specific) when he finally gets back.
And frankly…I don’t want to read about all of the disgusting things they are doing to him…know what I mean?
Whoa now…a double “little a little bitch”, that sounds extra, extra bad.
**
** THE JERRY THOMPSON 4:24 PM PHOTO
NOTE: This is another ‘Reply’ from down below that I thought I had already posted, but it never appeared. Posting it again, now, and hoping it shows up this time.
>> On January 7, 2019 at 2:47 pm, Joy Collura said…
>>
>> Explain to me Wtktt why the separate plumes
>> to the left is the Corridor
>> to the right is the Harper Canyon
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACjXUZXUTol5xdSHlORGsTqa/Photos%20and%20Video/Jerry%20Thompson%20Photos%20Videos?dl=0&preview=IMG_1898.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
>> this is Sun City West Jerry Thompson, who was on a brush
>> rig during the fire, gave these June 30, 2013 photos to Mike
>> Dudley, a member of the Accident Investigation Team
Yes. That link you provided is to Jerry Thompson’s 4:24 PM photograph that he took from that boulder pile ‘lookout’ location just WEST of ‘Westway’ in Yarnell.
Below is a link to a ‘crossfade’ video for that Jerry Thomson IMG_1898 photograph which shows you EXACTLY where all the following locations really are ( in that photograph )…
1. The Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot.
2. The Waltraud property ( 100 yards west of where Shrine pavement ends ).
3. The center of the main structure at the Youth Camp itself.
4. The ‘Sesame-to-Shrine’ dozer line.
As the ‘crossfade’ shows… the ‘dozer line’ is CLOSER to the camera than one might, at first glance, believe.
That ‘Boulder Pile’, which is clearly visible there in the distance, is BEYOND the actual ‘dozer line’. From Jerry Thompson’s perspective, the dozer line would have been in FRONT of that Boulder Pile ( as shown in the crossfade video below ).
The ‘smoke clouds’ seen in this 4:24 PM photograph are also BEYOND the ‘dozer line’, further WEST, and out in the ‘middle bowl’ area.
In the video at the link below, the yellow line that represents the exact location of the Sesame-to Shrine dozer line appears to be sort of a ‘fence’ anchored to the ground. There is a reason for that. It is, in fact, a RAISED path marker so that the yellow line remains VISIBLE when the crossfade is at ground level and showing you exactly what Jerry Thompson would have seen when the photograph was taken.
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – Thompson IMG _1898 – 6/30/2013 – 4 24 PM
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/mOyePMA6pLE
YouTube Video Description:
——————————————————————————————————–
Crossfade of a photo taken at 4:24 PM on June 30, 2013 at the Yarnell Hill Fire, by firefighter Jerry Thompson. He and his crew were serving as ‘lookouts’ at a location just WEST of ‘Westway’ in Yarnell. The YELLOW line that appears in the crossfade represents the Sesame-to-Shrine dozer line. The photo shows that, circa 4:24 PM, the fire was definitely coming into Yarnell from out in the ‘middle bowl’ area, but there was no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ actually emanating FROM the Youth Camp or the dozer line itself.
———————————————————————————————————
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> the same man Mike Dudley who got Bob Brandon’s stuff along
>> with Clay Templin and never made it to the report so please
>> tell me that this is ALL of Jerry’s data in pure form?
>> I would like that clarification from the man Above.
>>
>> Has all Thomas stuff been made public?
If you asking ME if all of Jerry Thompson’s photos and videos have been made ‘public’… the answer ( from me ) is “I don’t know”.
The only Jerry Thompson photos/videos I am aware of are the ones that have always been sitting in the online public evidence Dropbox folder labelled “Jerry Thompson Photos Videos”.
Followup…
Jerry Thompson was a crew-member of Sun-City-West Engine BR131.
The official Yarnell Fire resource order number for SUN Engine BR131 is “E-8”.
Jerry Thompson’s Yarnell Fire official resource order number was “E-8.2”
Also… I misspelled Thompson’s name in the title page of the video at the link above.
I left out the ‘p’ and it just says “Jerry Thomson”.
FWIW… here is a link to a new ( identical ) copy of the same video with the spelling correction(s) made for Jerry Thompson’s name…
https://youtu.be/cZN5CyLkUGA
WTKTT,
Thank you for all the good work on another one of your great cross-fade videos, this time with the Sun City West FF Jerry Thompson’s June 30, 2013, 1624 hrs. photo.
To clarify, are you stating that the fire behavior shown in that 1624 photo (to the right) is Harper Canyon and the fire behavior to the left is the Sesame Street to Shrine Corridor?
Was it at the Number One Corridor ( 34°13’44.06″N and 112°45’23.69″W ) by the structure you labelled as the “Youth Camp” or the Number Two Corridor which included several arterial spur roads that led out to the Mina Road and the ‘Old Grader’ site?
You labelled this generally as the “Youth Camp,” yet it is really a much larger area.
Are you aware that it is a total of 160 acres? Where you identified is where one structure was and that is where the majority of the vehicles and WFs and FFs were stationed that afternoon.
So then, are you saying the fire behavior was right behind them at this “Youth Camp” in the large open area where Yavapai County Morin’s dozer turned around and was then rerouted elsewhere ( 34°13’47.64″N and 112°45’27.59″W )?
Or was it where all the arterial spur roads were located? Or were you talking about the mouth of the Second Corridor ( 34°13’56.04″N and 112°45’52.71″W )?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on February 16, 2019 at 9:32 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Thank you for all the good work on another one of your great
>> cross-fade videos, this time with the Sun City West FF Jerry
>> Thompson’s June 30, 2013, 1624 hrs. photo.
>>
>> To clarify, are you stating that the fire behavior shown in that
>> 1624 photo (to the right) is Harper Canyon and the fire behavior
>> to the left is the Sesame Street to Shrine Corridor?
I believe the ‘crossfade’ speaks for itself.
I’m a little confused, though, about what you mean by ‘fire behavior’ to the ‘left and right’ in the photo. The CENTER of the photo is that marker on that main structure at the Youth Camp. As the original IMG_1898 shows, there was NO ‘fire behavior’ at all ( at 4:24 PM ) “to the right” of that CENTER marker. So by ‘left and right’…. you are referring to ‘left center’ and ‘right center’ in the photograph, yes?
If that is the case… then yea… the FLAMES that are clearly seen in the ‘right center’ of the original photograph are coming OVER the north ridge of Harper Canyon. That ‘fireline’ coming over that north part of what TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel and SPGS1 Gary Cordes kept referring to as the ‘Rock Pile Ridge’ matches other photographs that were being taken at that same time by various Blue Ridge Hotshots who were ( at 4:24 PM ) busily “getting out of Dodge” over there in that Youth Camp area.
Just 180 seconds after Jerry Thompson took this IMG_1898 photo, Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble would record his 4:27 PM ‘Yarnell-Gamble’ video from the driver’s seat of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers parked over there at the Youth Camp. The same ‘flames’ are clearly seen coming ‘over the north ridge’ in his video. That’s why he was actually shooting the video… to capture the sight of those flames coming over that north ridge… because it was a pretty awesome sight from there at the “Youth Camp”.
As for the ‘smoke column’ seen on the ‘left center / left edge’ of the photo… the crossfade clearly shows that ‘smoke’ was originating from some point that was still some distance WEST of the ‘Sesame-to-Shrine’ dozer push. Probably somewhere out in the ‘middle bowl’ near the ‘Sesame clearing’ itself… where the GM and Blue Ridge Crew Carriers had been staged earlier in the day.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Was it at the Number One Corridor ( 34°13’44.06″N and 112°45’23.69″W )
>> by the structure you labelled as the “Youth Camp” or the Number
>> Two Corridor which included several arterial spur
>> roads that led out to the Mina Road and the ‘Old Grader’ site?
This is the first I’ve ever heard the phrases ‘Number One’ and ‘Number Two’ corridors.
See more about this below.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You labelled this generally as the “Youth Camp,”
>> yet it is really a much larger area.
The only ‘label’ in the crossfade video is simply a marker on the exact center of that main structure over there at the ‘Youth Camp’.
I didn’t try and show the actual ‘property boundaries’ of this ‘Youth Camp’ itself.
You are right. The ‘Youth Camp’, per se, was more than just that main structure, but as far as how it has ever been referred to in public testimony… the phrase ‘Youth Camp’ has always just been referring to that main structure and the ‘clearings’ around it where all the firefighting vehicles were being staged that day.
I mean, technically, ALL of the ‘Youth Camp’ is actually IN ‘Harper Canyon’ ( as far as I know )… but for the purposes of matching what the firefighters were all saying when they testified… “Youth Camp” has come to mean that place where all the vehicles were staged… and “Harper Canyon” has come to mean places WEST of there.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Are you aware that it is a total of 160 acres?
Yes.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Where you identified is where one structure was and that is
>> where the majority of the vehicles and WFs and FFs were
>> stationed that afternoon.
That’s correct.
At one point that afternoon, two of the Engines assigned to the area were actually parked in the DRIVEWAY of that ‘main Youth Camp structure’, under the trees that surround the house. They both eventually moved further east to the ‘clearings’ and closer to the entrance to the Youth Camp and were re photographed in that new location, closer to evacuation time.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So then, are you saying the fire behavior was right behind them at
>> this “Youth Camp” in the large open area where Yavapai County
>> Morin’s dozer turned around and was then rerouted elsewhere
>> ( 34°13’47.64″N and 112°45’27.59″W )?
I am not ‘saying’ it… I am SHOWING it to you ( in the crossfade ).
See above. 180 seconds after this 4:24 PM Thompson photo is when Ronald Gamble and the other Blue Ridge Hotshots were, themselves, phtographing exactly what you just described, from the vantage point of the Youth Camp itself.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Or was it where all the arterial spur roads were located?
>> Or were you talking about the mouth of the Second Corridor
>> ( 34°13’56.04″N and 112°45’52.71″W ) ( 34.232233, -112.764642 )?
Here are the DECIMAL GPS coordinates ( and a link to the exact spot ) for this ‘mouth of the Second Corridor’ you are now referring to…
34.232233, -112.764642
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'56.0%22N+112%C2%B045'52.7%22W/@34.2313328,-112.7639437,911m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.232233!4d-112.764642
Using your own GPS coordinates ( above ) for the spot where Paul Morin STOPPED his dozer line there at the west end of the “Youth Camp Area” ( which I would say are accurate ) this “mouth of the Second Corridor” you are now referring to was…
1. 0.43 miles / 758 yards “as the bird flies” further WEST out into Harper Canyon.
2. 0.48 miles / 845 yards further WEST if you follow the winding path/drainage.
As far as I know… there is nothing in the public evidence record about Captain Darby Starr and his crew ( or any of TFLD(t) Tyson Esqubel’s other crews ) going THAT far WEST into Harper Canyon that afternoon.
The ‘saw line’ project they were all working on was just supposed to “tie’ the end of Paul Morin’s dozer line, which stopped right where you have indicated, into what both Esquibel and Cordes kept calling the ‘Rock Pile Ridge’ just north of the Youth Camp area.
We still don’t know EXACTLY where this actual ‘saw line’ work was taking place, but it was close enough to the Youth Camp area for Darby Starr and his crew and the others who were assisting with the project to make it out of there ( on foot ) quickly enough to load up and head out of the area at the same time as the Blue Ridge Hotshots and everyone else who was in that ‘Youth Camp’ area.
Tyson Esquibel told ADOSH that ‘saw line’ work was taking place no more than a few ‘hundred feet’ WEST of the Youth Camp area… and certainly not a full HALF-MILE to the west.
If you have some evidence to the contrary… let’s hear it and talk about it.
I’m still actually very curious to know EXACTLY where Captain Darby Starr and the others were DOING this ‘saw line’ work when they realized they needed to get the hell OUT of there.
How FAR did they really have to RUN to get back to the “Youth Camp Area”?
Inquiring minds still want to know.
Back to the actual ‘fireline’ seen in the Thompson IMG_1898 photo…
With regards to whether that ‘fire’ seen out there on that ridge was coming over the ridge ‘out there’ by this ‘mouth of the Second Corridor’ or closer to the ‘Youth Camp area’…
I am no FBAN… but I know how to look at a photograph.
it seems like it was all happening at the same time.
Just look at the Thompson photograph itself.
The FLAMES that can be seen up on that ‘ridge’ stretch all the way from this ‘mouth of the Second Corridor’ you are referring to… to the north ridge near the ‘Youth Camp Area’… where it was about to be photographed also coming OVER that ridge… in THAT area… by the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Reply to Gary Olson post on February 8, 2019 at 9:41 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I3. In this day and age, if Walmart can track every truck they operate and
>> individual containers of fish and other perishables with cheap, widely available
>> and easy to use GPS beacon locators, we should be able to do the same with
>> significant assets on fires…like hotshot crews. Not so close air support can be
>> sent to save them such as idiots like Sad Sack and that stupid movie say
>> is possible, but so so Plans knows where significant resources are located on a
>> fire at any given time for a whole host of good and logical reasons.
Just a few days ago… that all actually just took a step closer to becoming a LAW ( at least for Federal fires ).
Senate Bill 47
The Natural Resources Management Act
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/47/text
Just 3 days ago, on February 5, 2019, the U.S. Senate finally had the ‘vote to proceed’ on this and it passed with 99 out of 100 Senators voting ‘Yes’.
Only Kentucky Senator Rand Paul voted ‘No’.
The next step is a REAL ‘vote’ on the bill in the Senate, then it goes to the House for a vote, then to the President’s desk for signature.
No telling how long all that might take… but the bill is now ‘moving forward’.
**** UPDATE ****
Well whadda ya know.
The Senate got off its ass and actually VOTED ( for REAL ) on this TODAY.
At 4:31 PM TODAY… the real Senate ‘roll call’ vote started.
The bill PASSED ( with flying colors ).
The actual Senate VOTE was 92 FOR and only 8 AGAINST.
https://www.democrats.senate.gov/2019/02/12/roll-call-vote-on-passage-of-s47-natural-resources-management-act-as-amended
———————————————————————————————————
U.S. SENATE FLOOR VOTES – February 12, 2019
Roll call vote on passage of S.47, Natural Resources Management Act, as amended
4:31pm the Senate began a 15 minute roll call vote on passage of S.47, Natural Resources Management Act, as amended.
Passed: 92-8.
——————————————————————————————————
Now it goes to the House of Representatives.
With that kind of overwhelming ‘majority’ vote in the Senate, it means it should enjoy similar results in the House, and it also means the votes are ALREADY there to override a presidential veto if the dipshit in the Oval Office decides to NOT sign the bill.
That is certainly good news and based on what I have seen in the past, if it is policy on U.S. Forest Service fires, it becomes policy on everybody’s fires because all they have to say, is if you don’t do it also, we won’t send you any of our resources because we consider that a critical safety factor.. But…we’ll see and I for one will hope for the best.
Gary said: And I only had a skateboard to get around on and no bike. Maybe we walked out there, but it was a really long way to walk?
My reply: what kind of bullshit…they did not have skateboards back then when you and Roy were growing up
Goodness Gracious
Lordy Lordy…God Almighty.
How old are you
15 human years equals the first year of a medium-sized dog’s life so you are about 4.33 years old?
I forget all the conversions…that means you can play soon with the additional Extraterrestrial life if we both ever hear from RTS – we will know for sure…I know Sonny knows all about abductions…he really was,,,that week of the fire he was interviewed by CBS Paramount on this very topic…maybe RTS and Sonny vanished because their depth of wanting TRUTH out…All I know is I got Atomic Skies on my jeep Gar- THAT logo keeps me safer from danger…you have to get that…right?
So let’s not get off path…are you trying to con me about Roy Hall? Are you thinking I would believe Roy Hall ever was around you and that you had a skateboard strapped to your side? I will know if you answer this…did you own a hard rubber or clay one or metal? I know it was not polyurethane because that was my generation…Hard to picture little old tiny Gary on a tiny skateboard heading out to burglarize some ranch with MORE THAN LIKELY hard nasty eroded dirt roads on metal wheels…I could not help myself Gary…I about peed myself when I read that and thought if the world bought that…I will be back to getting off the PC until I can come up with some real hard facts to present but great to hear you have a sense of humor and imagination
was that worthy enough for a mic dropped Gary?
You should go see Sonny until your Moab times…you may learn a bit about how to have 9 or 30 lives in one…
Sonny, Happy Valentine’s Day…hope you are enjoying it with someone who cares…is there those kind of folks still in the world?
You are the son of a miner
I am the son of a %!@!% of an officer
You win the bad ass award
We didn’t just burglarize any ranch building, we burglarized a ranch building on the Milky Way Ranch that was owned by John Wayne. And the town was Eagar, Arizona. One set of relatives I stayed with were the Eagar’s, my uncle (by marriage) owned the only gas station in town where everybody in town (all of the men anyway) stopped by at least once some time during the week to shoot the breeze. The Mormons lived in Eagar, and the Catholics lived in Springerville. I had relatives scattered all over the White Mountains from Eagar to Alpine. It was a ranching family. I was the Black Sheep from the Black Sheep of the family. I always had one foot in Fort Grant and the other one on a banana peel. So…my relatives took turns keeping me out of the juvenile correctional system in Arizona. I even attended two years of grade school with relatives and spent all of my summers up on, “The Mountain.” I didn’t say it was a good town to get around on with a skateboard, I said that was what I had, plus my two shank ponies as my mother used to say. I am 65 years young. And yes, I took some hard spills because the roads weren’t skate board roads but they were paved. The main uncle who kept me on the straight and narrow was the real deal of a cowboy and John Wayne used to consider it an honor to hang out with HIM. I don’t even know what his first name was because everybody called him Skinner (Slade) because he had been a muleskinner as a young man when the only way to get supplies to those mountain towns was to haul them by mule train from the railhead at Magdelana, New Mexico. I called him Uncke Skin and we would spent days…weeks together without saying more than a half a dozen words all day long. He didn’t have anything to say to me, and I didn’t have anything to say to him, but he was always very kind to me. Sometimes he would drop the tailgate half way and load the horses into the back of his pickup truck. It was the damndest thing I ever saw and I thought every time he did it, those horses were going to break all of their legs and kill both of us in the process, but somehow they got up there. Unloading them was the second damnest thing I had ever seen except what appeared to me was a disaster in slow motion interspaced with really violent actions with horrses legs going everywhere as my uncle whistled and yelled at them in horse language, which they understood but I didn’t. He had his own little ranch and about three hundred head of Herefords. He knew every cow and calf by sight and which calf went to which cow, but they all looked the same to me. He was also the foreman of the Udall Ranch called Pool Corral, it just had one full time cowboy, my uncle, the Udall boys (when they weren’t at college, on Missions for The Church or law school.) some Undocumented Aliens (UDA’s) who lived in line shacks who always seemed to be really happy guys living all by themselves in the middle of the forerst. Everybody referred to them as…”my Mexcans” and they would loan each other “their Mexcans” because they didn’t pronounce the i. They were considered to be indentured servants, It was a different time back then. My uncle always had brown Red Man chewing tobacco streaming out the side of his mouth and it dribblling down his chin which he periodically wiped away with the back of his hand. He kept bags of the loose leaf on the dash of his Chevy Stepside truck and he chewed wads of that nasty stuff all day long and spit it out his window going down the road so his tobacco spittle would fly all over the place and his baby blue truck was two tone brown on one side. We got up before the sun, ate my uncles sour dough pancakes and steak that was all cooked on a wood burning stove. My uncle was one hell of a cook. And then we saddled up horses in the dark and then we rode horses all day lookin at cows, or riding the fence lines or checking on the Mexcans who didn’t speak any English but my uncle spoke Spanglish like all of the cowboys did. And the Udall boys had gone on missions for The Church down south somewhere so they spoke fluent Spanish. One time they spent the day riding the fence line teaching me how to greet Jose in Spanish so that by the time we got to one particular line shack, I would be able to carry on a few sentences of basic conversation with him. But…from the shocked look on Jose’s face as we rode up and I called out a greeting to him …I am pretty sure they were disengenous about what they had taught me to say in Spanish. And then we would get back to the little ranch houses (the Udalls or his) after dark and then my uncle would light up the Coleman lanterns and cook dinner on the wood burning stove that was always based around sour dough biscuits that had been doing whatever sourdough does all day long in a crock and steak. And then we would go to sleep in the adjoining bunkhouse and all of us would piss at night into a five gallon bucket in the corner (in the dark, so you know where a lot of piss ended up, but nobody including me thought anything about it) that had held lard at one time and then in the morning I would dump it out. There was an outhouse for more serious business, but of course it was some distance from the ranch house so you didn’t want to go out there in the dark because he didn’t ever use any flashlights, just Coleman laterns and of course he would put those out after dinner, which was either steak, steak or steak to go with the sourdough biscuits. And then he would start the sourdough to doing whatever sourdough does all night long in the crock so there would be sourdough pancakes and more steak in the morning. Whenever we ran out of steak, they would make a bunch more right on the spot by shooting a cow in the head with a .22. and pulling the carcass up a tree so it could be processed into…you know, steak. We rode from zero dark thirty every morning to after dark every night. Things would change up when it was time to brand the calves. And it was my job and my cousins job to somehow get a calf in the chute by twiisting their tails and pushing them from behind. Of course they didn’t want any part of that so the fight would be on and then their automatic animal fight or flight systems would kick in just like ours and the first thing they would do is shit all over their hind ends and us. And urinate all over the dusty corral that was mixed with the fresh cow shit. The mother cows would be terrified for their babies and raising a racket, their babies would be terrified for themselves and raising a racket. I would be covered with cow shit because I would slip in the mud made from all of the urine and dirt in the corral while wrestling them into the chute as they shit more on me. But in the end somehow they would end up in the chute and them the sides would slam in on them after somebody pulled a big lever and then they would be slammed onto their sides pinned by the chute while they were screaming (you know calf screams) and their mothers would be,screaming (cow screams) and then one cowboy would cut off part of one ear in a certain pattern with his pocket knife while another cowboy got the red hot branding iron from the barrel contraption that kept the irons red hot from big propane bottles with lots of fire and a roaring noise, and then another cowboy would cut the calf’s balls off with his pocket knife and put them on a big bloody pile of other balls on the top of the fence posts. There were cowboys everywhere because everyone would get together and help each other brand. And that would go on from sun up to sun down and then all of the cowboys would eat sourdough biscuits and fresh calf balls which seemed to be a real delicacy they all seemed to enjoy munching on with obvious delight. I just ate sourdough biscuits and steak while the cowboys teased me (little skater punk) and of the cow shit dried on me because the only water came out of a hand pump in the kitchen so we never took showers until we rarely came down off The Mountain to my uncles house in Eagar where my aunt lived who was my mothers older sister except for the 4th of July when we would ride horses in the town parade and go to the rodeo for several days at the rodeo grounds at the edge of of town..Of course my mother had 7 or 8 brothers and sisters and they all had kids and I had a hard time keeping everybody straight because there were first cousins and second cousins and third cousins all over the place. And then when the Monsoons started in July, those powdered dirt roads would turn into mud about three feet deep. And then…it was time to fire up the 1948 (I don’t actually know what year it was) Dodge Poweragon with the huge Power Take Off (PTO) winch that sat there unused until the mud got three feet deep. And then we would all pile into that big ole Power Wagon with my uncle at the wheel and it would be the ride of our lives roaring down off The Mountain sideways. But we hardly ever came down off The Mountain so it didn’t really matter how much it rained because we just rode horses all day in the rain. And every day was just like the previous day and the next day would be just like that day. Until the fall and then we (and when I say we, I mean the cowboys because I wasn’t of much use) would gather up all of the cows from different ranches and then there would be a cattle drive…I kid you not. A real cattle drive down off The Mountain to the winter pasture that was almost to the New Mexico State Line. And my uncle would slide a big chuck box into the back of his step side and then at night he would cook sourdough biscuits and steak and in the morning, he would cook sourdough pancakes and steak. John Wayne wanted to come up and have my uncle cook him sour dough biscuits on his wood stove, which he was famous for all over The Mountain. So one day we didn’t ride out in the dark and my uncle spent the whole day cooking sourdough biscuits and steak. Except since John Wayne was coming for dinner, he also made his very rare enchiladas (always eaten with a fried egg on top…Mexcan style) treat and he sent the Udall boys and me down to the Black River which ran across the far end of the horse pasture to catch big Rainbow trout with our bare hands that were hiding under the rocks because John Wayne was coming to dinner. Otherwise, my uncle would never cook a fish, he mostly just cooked sourdough pancakes, sourdough biscuits and you know…steak. And finally when everything was ready that afternoon, we were all sitting on the porch waiting for John Wayne to get there for dinner. Finally…we could see a huge black Cadillac careening down the dusty road that led up to the ranch house and it arrived in a cloud of dust and stopped right in front of the porch we were sitting on. And then four big men, who were all wearing black suits with white shirts piled out of the black Caddy, but John Wayne wasn’t one of them because he had been called away from his ranch that was just outside of Eagar (the Milky Way) and had flown off somewhere, It was called the Milky Way because it had miles of wooden fence around the buildings and horse pastures and everything…all of the buildings and fences were painted bright white which was always very striking siting on all of that green grass up against the green forest. John Wayne used to sit for hours and bullshit with my uncle while he sat and drank cup after cup of coffee whenever we were in town (I sat and nursed a coke and kept my mouth shut because I didn’t have anything to say to them and they didn’t have anything to say to me) at the Safire Restaurant in Springerville (where the Catholics lived) because John Wayne liked to hang out with the real deal…a real cowboy and legendary mule skinner who brought in the supplies back in the day from the railhead in Magdalena, New Mexico…Skinner Slade!
Any more questions?
Oh…and one more thing. I forgot to mention the very worst part of the whole branding experience. Those terrified screaming calves and their terrified screaming mothers would take it up a notch when those red hot branding irons were pressed slowly and carefully into their flanks so as not to blur the brand. And the stink of the burning flesh and calf hair was something I will never forget. You should have seen them run when the sides of the chute slammed open and their ordeal was over and they were free. I would never had made a very good cowboy.
Say…have you heard the one about the two brothers who each inherited ten million dollars when their father died? One of them was a rancher and the other one was something else (it doesn’t matter).
So the brother who was something else asked his brother the rancher, what he was going to do with his ten million dollars? And the cowboy relied, “I don’t know…I guess I’ll just keep ranching until all of the money is gone?”
Oh…and you did have some more questions about the gun stuff. Yes…I was just joking, you told me all of that and I was just repeating all of the things you have told me over the past few months back to you. I keep telling you that when it comes to ballistics…I am out of my element. I like guns…a lot. But I’m not really a gun person, I’m just a gun nut. My experience with guns is very, very limited as is my experience with ammunition. All of the guns I know about fit into a very narrow field that are specific to federal law enforcement. None of them can be altered or modified in any way or somebody will own you, and everything you have ever worked for, for your entire life or ever will earn. IF you hurt anybody in any way with anything, a pistol, a rifle, a baton, pepper spray, or anything else that you have not been specifically trained how to use, authorized to carry and use in a very narrow and specific way within the law, your agencies General Orders, FLETC training and their use policies, rules, regulations and guidelines and may God help you if you are out of policy in any way and you are not acting within the scope of your employment, authority and under the color of law. As authorized by God, Country and the U.S. Constitution because the U.S. Attorneys Office won’t. They will cut you lose like a kite just as soon as your interests deviate from theirs in any way and you are more trouble to defend than you worth to them. And that especially goes for ammo. All ammo that is shot all of the time, in training, in practice, in qualifications and on duty is the same, which is the best your tax dollars can buy and once again, may God help you if you have the wrong gun, the wrong bullet or the wrong accessories that you have not been specifically trained on and authorized to use in a very narrow way within the Federal Use Of Force Policy and Threat Continuum. No after market grips, hone jobs, trigger jobs, polishing of actions…nothing. Everything has to be stock and factory. So…I really only know a little bit about a little bit and only what they wanted me to know. I like guns on a personal level, but they were a tool, a very specific tool to be used in a very specific way. And I never varied beyond those…iron clad rules. And when I did buy, collect and use my own guns…guess what? Everything was an exact duplicate of what I happened to be using at work at that particular time and I followed the very same directives in my personal life without deviation or variation. So…you see, it’s like this, compared to you, I don’t know shit from Shinola about guns, bullets, ballistics or anything else related to firearms. And I carried a one (1) million dollar liability insurance policy as everyone else did who wasn’t a fuckin’ idiot that was made available to use to pay for with our own money through our professional association, the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, which also provided us legal counsel up to a point from a staff of lawyers that were paid for by our dues. It wasn’t a union, we were prohibited by law from having a union even though regular federal employees can. Those unions considered us pariah and the bad guys because we did the internal investigations they hired lawyers to fight against. Other employees feared and hated us and management feared and hated us and everyone misunderstood us. Other than that…it was a pretty good job. So bottom line, when it comes to guns, bullets and ballistics, I was just fuckin’ with you. You win.
For example, one time I was instructed by our home office, which was the Office of Law Enforcement and Security at the national level in Washington D.C. to march down the hall and seize the computers off the desks of the Arizona State Director and the Associate State Director. We didn’t work for them. How do you think that went over? We did that kind of stuff all of the time to the field offices and to each other because we would be ordered to eat our own. Nobody liked us and we didn’t even really like ourselves…sometimes.
I will tell you one thing for sure though, I know the National Park Service, the U.S. Forest Service and the BLM law enforcement programs going forward, backwards, sidewards, up and down and in and out.
And every one of them has the highest standards and the finest programs with the best people. the best training, the best equipment your money can buy. You have every reason as a tax payer to be very proud of the law enforcement programs all three of those agencies manage. They are all too notch and operate with the highest standards of integrity. And you know I can dish it out when I think otherwise.
I mean…two of them had the distinct honor of employing me for 22 years…enough said. And out of the three, the National Park Service are the big dogs…WOOF! They are to those three agencies in law enforcement what the US Forest Service is to everyone else in FIRE.
Whoops…although in your case I wasn’t “fuckin’” with you, I was TEASING you, because you know I like to TEASE you.
And if anyone who ever reads anything on this site who isn’t a wildland firefighter, and is going to take just one single invaluable piece of information from me,. And you spent a lot of your tax dollars to teach me this, so consider it at least some payback. The ONE THING…JUST ONE THING, well here is my ONE THING!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X4CvFWCULuI
The reason I always bought the very same guns for my personal life that I used at work, Smith & Wesson specific revolvers, from the Model 36 (5 shot) and Model 19 (66, 686) families, the SIG Sauer Double Action/Single Action (DA/SA) with decocking levers and no safety’s (226, 228, 229, 232, 239 in both 9mm or .40, it’s all the same), Remington 870 Pump Action 12 Gauge Shotguns, and AR-15 (.556/223) carbines such as Colt or FN because they are the same without optics such as scopes, or tactical aiming devices of any kind, iron sites only, and forget about the specialty guns like the Heckler and Koch (H&K) MP 5 and 53 because those are full auto and aren’t civilian options, is because I had so much training and experience on all of those guns and ONLY those guns, that I can pick up any of them, at any time, any place, whether they are my guns or not, and instinctively, automatically and proficiently use all of them without thinking about it because the all important, “manual of arms” is burned into my muscle memory (how each gun specifically operates) under extreme stress while on full auto pilot.
So…if you have any intention to ever use a firearm to defend yourself or others, only allow yourself to have access to those guns that are, or have been in your life and you have gained a similar familiarity, and muscle memory (they say it takes at least 1000 repitions to gain muscle memory) whether that be a single gun or many guns, but don’t switch back and forth between one gun to another that is similar but has a distinctly different “manual of arms.”
For example, switching back and forth between a Sig and a Glock or a Remington 870 and a Mossberg 500, because under extreme stress, you will feel for the slide release lever, or the safety, or decocking lever, or maybe one gun has a safety, but another one doesn’t have a safety, or the magazine release button, or other specific manual of arms operating sequence is different, because if you do, you are highly likely to be standing there fumbling with that gun while the bad guy shoots you dead.
The same thing goes for all of the various retention holsters out there that all have different release mechanisms on them that are all different, or you will still be trying to get your holster to release your gun while the bad guy shoots you dead.
And ideally, your gun should always be in the same place so you don’t reach to your hip for your gun, but remember to late that you wore it in a shoulder holster that day, and you forget where you put your gun that day under extreme stress and the bad guy shoots you dead.
Your welcome, but the fact is, you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to teach me what I just told you, so no…thank you!
Train like you fight and fight to win every time, no matter what it takes, finish the fight.
And I know that sounds like a lot of guns that are all different manufacturers, calibers, and types of guns…but looks are very deceiving.
Everything I wrote above comes down to only FOUR guns. That is all I know how to instinctively, automatically and proficiently use without thinking about it because the all important, “manual of arms” is burned into my muscle memory (how each gun specifically operates) while under extreme stress and on full auto pilot.
And here they are;
1 revolver
1 automatic pistol
1 shotgun
1 rifle
That’s it, four guns. But I can pick up any of those four guns at any time or place and defend my life and the lives of others. So…thanks again.
P.S.,
And I don’t want to learn how to operate any other types of guns because 1 revolver, 1 pistol, 1 shotgun and 1 Rifle is all I will ever need to know how to use and I don’t want to confuse myself, and you know….get killed.
Clarification,
But just because I don’t want to learn how to use any more guns, doesn’t mean I can’t buy any more guns.
There is an endless list of different calibers and manufacturers that I can add to my gun collection, including most if not all of the guns Joy and I have been bullshitiing about, I will just have to think through the list to make sure what is on it.
I just have to select only those guns regardless of caliber or manufacturer, that doesn’t change my basic equation by adding a new “manual of arms.”
Just as long as I don’t change or add to the FOUR “manual of arms” I have listed for 1 revolver, 1 pistol, 1 shotgun and 1 rifle, I can buy any number of guns in the future, adding both new manufacturers and calibers.
And of course like almost everything in life, there are nuances, but I am just trying to keep it simple.
But here is an example of a change that I would be comfortable making. There is a general lack of interest on the part of most law enforcement officers to maintain their guns, if they aren’t gun people.
So…my agency determined that it would be better to prohibit all optics including scopes and Aim point devices because the average person who isn’t into guns, will just put their rifle with a scope on it into their gun rack and it will bounce around for a few months on rough roads and then the day they really need it, they will pull it out, aim at a threat and the scope, which has bounced way off target will send the round into a bystander and then the bad guy will kill the officer.
So…an easy solution is to prohibit anyone from adding a scope to their rifle by policy and to specify that only iron sights can be used because unlike the military, law enforcement officers generally aren’t engaging threats at long distances, or even moderate distances. So…my manual of arms for a rifle is to use iron sights only because those really can’t be knocked off target.
But…if my rifle has iron sights on it because it came with them, or I purchase them separately and add them, I can have both iron sights and a tactical scope and for me, that is acceptable since I don’t have to follow any ones General Orders now but my own.
And if the tactical scope is damaged and is no longer usable because I dropped the rifle, it is okay because I can strip off the optic and I can still use the iron sights.
I just would never want to have a rifle with an optic only, because they do fail for lots of reasons. And most guns now come without iron sights because it’s assumed that everyone will want a high speed tactical scope, Red Dot, or Aimpoint and never use the iron sights.
But…those kind of variations is something only you can decide is something you can live with…or die because of.
And to even tie this back to wildland firefighting, if I had to pick The ONE THING…JUST ONE THING, well here is my ONE THING for wildland firefighter.
How Big Is Big Enough and remembers…Size Does Matter!
And as a bonus, for wildland firefighter, “Train like you fight and fight to win every time, and no matter what it takes…finish the fight.”
I know about branding–we did about 700 in less than a week–and when I say we, it was Carlie Ray’s Wife, Grace and me. Charlie had back and gut problems and wore some kind of pouch under his shirt for his gut so he couldn’t do much beyond driving his scout and loading a few things–like Frank who he dragged by the hair after he shot him and loaded him into the back of that scout. Well I was a 19 year old cow hand so took orders for my $5 a day, grub and a bunk–which had been demoded to the sand draw after I had shot a few rats off the rafters in the bunk house.
Grace weighed a good 250 and not a fat lady so the horse that held here knew she was there. She could rope as good as any one on that ranch so she would rope the calves and I would run out and flank and tie them. Charlie did help since he had the fire and branding iron hot and would do the branding. So Gary described it pretty well–but Charlie would also cut a notch in their ears to help him identify his stock. Life on the ranch wasn’t easy–and if you were a smoker and ran out of cigarettes, it was a 17 mile hike into town–and Manuel, another hand out there would sometimes do that. He’d walk a mile not for a Camel but 17 for his Lucky Strikes. Then Charlie if he missed him and needed his help would take a trip in to town to pick him up at the Blue Moon Bar. Life on the Range — Not Bad.
So some things were covered up even there–story was that Old Man Brock, Grace’s dad was sick and had a young Chinese gal attending him. He was according to what I was told, going to will the ranch or a big part of it to that Chinese girl. Anyway it never happened since the Chinese gal wound up missing–with Grace and Charlie as suspects. As it ended Grace did get the ranch–I don’t know what her sister that was married to Frank McCauley got. Frank was the Flying A rancher that Charlie shot off the horse after he and Grace got into an argument. So there are a lot of cover ups–some deadly. However if it was true of Grace and Charlie disposing of the Chinese girl, then Karma got them both–Frank wound up with the ranch even though he was in a wheel chair from Charlies 22 short lodged on his spine. He lived ten more years but Grace died soon after loss of the Ranch and I don’t know how much longer Charlie lasted.
In those days cow punching and ranching were not much safer than mining. Maybe they still aren’t.
So about cover ups and the like attributed to government agencies–does happen, more often than we might think. Few people realize that 125 above ground nuclear bombs were exploded in the Nevada Test Site spreading as much or more nuclear fall out as the Chernobyl Nuclear plant explosion. That fallout was tainting snows in New York and pastures in Kansas- and it did not only come from those 125 nuclear bombs but also from 931 underground tests that spewed nuclear dust into the air as well. Yet it took 14 years and Federal Courts to get to documents and facts about these tests.
Now I can see how government did not want people to know they should have been in their bomb shelters since they were being heavily dusted with radiation. It would have stopped their testing–so they had the excuse that this shit was necessary for the defense of the country. Little regard for the citizen there. The reason being is akin to mob violence–when people are in a mob they hang people and do all sorts of nefarious activity without conscience. The same with organizations–many people in them operate under the same principle–organizations have no conscience–and that person is only a subject of the juggernaut –the wheel turns him, he does not turn the wheel. So you see companies polluting the environment, three mile island spewing death making radiation, slurry dropped with deadly chemicals, and anything related to big organization, business and institutions allowing the unthinkable if only a citizen or small group are guilty.
So all the redactions, the cover up and the turning of a disaster where 17 men are outright murdered by careless operations becomes instead an operation by two heroes trying to save Yarnell—something well known that day to be an impossible dream. Why those men were trapped and killed is yet to be totally exposed to the public–but you can see from previous examples that it will not be an easy task.
One thing going for exposing the truth though is that unlike the A Bomb blasts of Nevada, there is no excuse for National Security Reasons. But if I were looking at this is if there were nothing to hide then why the huge amount of redactions and why are some having to sue just to get FOIA information. Delay tactics–the longer they can hide the truth, the better their hope that this will all fade away as will many of the witnesses and people in the know.
John Wayne died of cancer–he was a smoker but he also did a movie involving many horses and much dust in a place that got heavy fall out right after some of the A bomb esplosions in Nevada. That place he filmed in was a hot spot for fall out. It is well known if you are a smoker that the carbon atoms will latch on to the radon and uranium atoms retaining them in the lungs. All old Uranium miners that smoked are now dead or on the death bed with lung cancer. Some facts can not be escaped–but our friendly government did not give me that info when I worked three different Uranium mines. That Uranium was of utmost importance to the defense of this country and miners were to scarce to scare away.
So we hope it will be less than 14 years uncovering the Yarnell hill Wild land killing of 19 and the poisoning of the town of Yarnell with the chemical slurry dumps.
And Yes and branding included castrating and de-horneding as well. And the iron does sizzel when branding. Been there and done that–and it still has to be done if you are a cow poke.
Actually you missed it but I did describe how one cowboy would cut the calf’s ear while it was being castrated. I did however, forget about the dehorning.
Thank you for reminding me of the stench that created that was mixed in with the stench of burning hair and flesh while they screamed.
All and all, it was quite a chaotic environment for someone who didn’t grow up around cowboy work. I was only in 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th, grades during my cowboy years.
Now that I think about it, my cowboy years also included 7th grade and maybe even as late as 8th grade?
No…I think I had moved on with my life by 8th grade and I had established new goals to achieve in my life. And although my plan was still in the development stage at that time, I do know that being a cowboy wasn’t part of it.
Correction,
Strike 3rd grade. I was still in New York at that time auditioning for parts on Broadway.
The cowboy life is the good life–still is. Country life can not be beat even these days as far as I am concerned–but then I have had the good fortune to live it most of my years. I am still living it but could stand to move more back into the desert or woods. But the frontier is mostly gone these days unless you find a place in Alaska or maybe Montana. So I am not a cold weather bird so much these days–but for sure I would rather bare that than live in the confines of a city where I can’t try my rifle out my back door without disturbing neighbors.
Yes it has been over 50 years since I did any serious cowboy work but then I did have about a dozen head of my own cattle, some milk goats, chickens, a couple ornery burros and a good saddle horse. That was a desert area so I was having to haul hay and feed so there was not a lot of profit in doing that on a small scale.
You get to liking some of your stock though and hate to take them to auction. I had one old bull I named Geronimo–and he would hang around like an old pet. That was on five acres I had about 20 miles from here–though there were checkerboard sections of private land open to grazing in those days. Jay and Undine Tindell still live there and I visit them on occasion. They are both in their 90’s and Jay still takes off on his quad with his 22 rifle and little black mutt to kill rabbits. Country life has done them good since I was their neighbor back in the 80’s and see they are still in good health.
He still has the mine car he and I took apart and carried off the top of the Florita Mountains. I took one of the biggest mule deers up about that mine–good deer country if you are a mountain goat. And there are Ibex there too. A couple mexicans I had working for me saw one of them come down a 50 foot bluff and they swore it had to be the Diablo. So life on the desert has plenty of interesting things to do. Well there are not many opera singers around but you can watch them on TV if that is your thing.
Brings back a lot of memories–the kaolinite mine, the agate mines, and right near me is Hilborn Hole with peridot. Green peridot is a beutiful gem–best comes from San Carlos and the Apaches sell it in Globe–so you can get some fine gemstones there–or go over the mountain from Globe and just west of Superior gather your own Apache tears–nodules of smoky clear obsidian that they blast out and let people pick up for a price. Or you can pick them up free west of Mule Creek on that dirt road that crosses over to Clifton Arizona. Those are about 7 miles out and in the sand draw parallel and on the south side of the dirt road but also on the hill sides to the north side of the road. I think I write this cause Ted Putnam likes to hunt rocks and gemstones. And right along the highway going from Clifton across to the Duncan to Safford Highway–you will see diggings of fire agate on the north side–I think maybe 15 miles out from the highway east looking north to see that diggings. Yes I was knowledgeable of where mines and agates and gemstones could be found in this area and did pretty well sometimes gathering and selling to Rock Shops and even for a time had a Rock Shop in Pima, Arizona. So Ted if you do get this way, you now know a couple places to find some good material for your rock collecting.
I have been improving this place and down with the shotgun wound until I better heal before heading out, but I have some intentions.
That was an interesting article about the fire eddies and fire tornados moving at 140 mph speeds in California and ripping bark off trees and such. This is the new age where thinning by natural fires has been thwarted enough that fuel has built up to extreme measures in places. Why the fires like that I would guess. Yarnell had its previous fire in 1965 so that was almost 50 years of growth that went unburned. If you continue toward Prescott from Yarnell you will see the same growth that the men endured and you will wonder how the hell could they manage to get themselves into such an entanglement. There are plenty of areas around Prescott and especially west of Mayhill that are tender boxes ready to go–mountains of manzanita so think it is only fit for a bear to wallow through. Yet you can bet some dumb wild land fire fighter organization will have men in there trying to stop a blaze that will equal that of Yarnell, 2013. There might even be a Juniper tree to save in there.
Juniper trees are worth saving–I have cut quite a few dead ones–they make the best of firewood–smell good and burn nicely except you have to have a screen if you have a fireplace–pops like hell and right out on the floor if you have an open stove. When you cut the dead ones, you uncover those small piss ants–and they will cover you pretty quickly–just keep on cutting and wipe them off now and again–the stings are not that bad and they say good for arthritis.
Well these days the forest service does not want you to cut the dead trees–they claim they are homes to the fauna Well that is partly true since sometimes a pack rat will make a home in one–even a squirrel now and again. But I haven’t seen much of that, so leave them for the wild fires.. I am for cutting the dead wood–and never did like cutting live trees much even though I logged and then cut cedar fire wood for a number of years and kept a lot of people warm around Alamogordo a lot of those years.
There is not a whole lot of money in firewood–a good husky cost about 900 in those days and you needed at least two and then the maintenance and fuel . and splitting the wood by hand the way I was doing it for so long. But you kept in shape and with your beat to hell truck and a good sleeping bag, you could keep a grand or two in your pocket. That was not bad back then but now a grand is not so much. When you pay 75,000 for a Ford now, good lord, more than a house. I never gave over 1500 for my trucks and sometimes as little as $300. Well this 2001 F 150 cost me $2400 but it will drag my kids Toyota Tundra anytime and his is worth $15,000. But depends on what you want –some want a pretty truck they don’t dare scratch–I like one I can take into the bush and not worry much about the paint job–just the mechanical works.
Not much to say about Yarnell at this point–awaiting more revelations. And those are in the wind awaiting the wind catcher.
Whoops, I am 64 years young. And I forgot another bad part of the branding. The HISS as the red hot branding iron was slowly and carefully pressed into their flesh. And of course those big piles of bloody balls were fried up before the cowboys ate them with gusto, mmmmm….bloody fresh Rocky Mountain Oysters. And I have no idea where that name came from, but it is the common name for that particular delicacy.
I did forget to mention the atomic explosions were worse than you might imagine during that testing period.–July 5, 1957 a 74 kiloton hydrogen bomb was suspended by a balloon 1500 ft above the desert floor. Soldiers were stationed between 7 and 10 miles from the blast to see how it effected them. Robert Carter was 17 years old at the time and described the ordeal. They were marched closer to the bomb standing in the open with no trench or other protection. It blew him and his fellow soldiers 40 ft. back onto a mountain side He felt his head and knees banging against the ground and got up finally with a bloody nose and a mouth and face and ears full of dirt. His clothing was cracked and burned. He felt like he was burning alive and the ground was so hot you couldn’t stand it. Then they were marched even closer to the bomb to see how well they would maneuver around such explosion and radiation.
He was sick on the way out and would report to sick call later. As they were leaving the site he saw a chain link fence with barbed wire on top and people inside He said he saw that their skin was peeling off and their hair was falling out. He pointed it out to fellow soldiers–the people had denums but no shirts and were shackled and chained to the fences. When he was hospitalized, he told the nurse, and later there were some doctors came in and told him he had imagined these things. He was told to keep his mouth shut –that he would have to undergo reverse brainwashing for three days while he was locked up. He was told to talk about these things would be treason and you could be hung.
I would have to believe the men shackled in the fences were prisoners who had volunteered to be exposed that way for some promise of release or other benefits.
His take was that he was a happy person before the blast but after never recovered the happiness seeing the huge black cloud of dirt and radiation and those people burned as they were and his continued illness aftermath.
The human body is amazing–although he was able to survive with his fellows, they all suffered radiation sickness and other maladies connected–especially the cancer problem radiation presents.
Those were Atomic Veterans–lately the government has awarded them $75,000 if they are willing to go through the proving process to show they were near a bomb explosion. Of course many die before they get through the process.
There in Yarnell, I had a neighbor that was on a ship when a hydrogen bomb was exploded nearby–he described some of it to me. Well I informed him that he should apply for that money due him for the experimental situations where military people were being exposed like that to radiation effects. He did get paper work and apply. I hope Clint is still alive to collect. He was some older than me–in his 80’s –another atomic Veteran and former guinea pig for radiation tests.
I consider myself an Atomic Veteran–although I was a hard rock miner, I did several years of exposure to high grade uranium ore underground in tight places. Those mines seldom had adequate ventilation so you were not only soaked in radiation but the radon gas infiltrated your lungs. Radon Gas killed a number of miners–even when I was working. If you got into a low place where no ventilation was available and breathed in Radon gas you died. Four had died in the Kerr Mac mine–two went into a low place and two other miners tried to rescue them and died as well. Once you breath in concentrated radon, you can not breath it out–it is so heavy the lungs are not able to expel it–good reason to stay out of uranium drifts where there is no ventilation.
So today two more cancers removed–not so bad like the others–small incisions and a few stitches. The one behind my ear he would not do since it is another large one requiring Mohs surgery. So that will come next then he says I should be pretty well set. I have heard that before, so I keep my fingers crossed.
The public is so fooled by redactions and cover ups–perhaps the excuse that it was for the benefit of all that the american public suffered a great increase in cancer incidence has some value–but the sad thing is we were never told we were guinea pigs and that our lives were considered so valueless to those making the excuses.
It seems like such a hard road to battle against evil–those 125 above ground and 931 below ground tests using men as guinea pigs and polluting the US landscape were evil actions. Yet they were categorized as necessary and heroic deeds. I would have like to have seen the scientists and politicians behind all that standing right beside those soldiers whose lives were sacrificed. But life is not fair–he who has the gold and power makes the rules and rides the soft car.
Thanks to the internet, we do get to work with others and knowledge and understanding of events can be understood and shared–something previously unavailable.
Trump can only bully so many–there are a number of us who have minds and see past the rhetoric.
Oh…and one more thing. Those calves were so terrorized and stressed out, they could kick out their backs legs with their hooves like little mules to try and make me stop twisting their tails, and it really bruised up my shins. You can probably tell…I have a little PTSD from my cowboy years. So…if anyone ever asks you if you want to help them brand…don’t do it.
Oh..and a point of interest from my time in New Mexico because I was always traveling through Magdelana going to somewhere else or coming back from somewhere else. It was called Magdelana because it was where the houses of ill repute (you know…whore houses) back in the day for all of the mines in the surrounding areas, all the way down to Socorro and was named after Mary Magdalene in the Bible.
And this is getting down into the weeds just a little bit, but the Mexican line riders were there for the “season” because The Mountain was under several feet of snow all winter when those men would return to their families in Mexico. And I can assure anyone who is interested, that those men DID not take any job from any American considering what they did and how much money there is in ranching. Nobody makes any money ranching, including the line riders, orbthe ranch hand back in the day or my uncle.
Those people do it for the love of the lifestyle and the tradition of family ranches, although I can’t imagine why? Its sure as hell not for the money because if they are lucky…they will be able to borrow just enough money from the bank to make it to the next shipping season…maybe? But probably not if anything goes wrong and lots of things can and do go wrong.
As a matter of fact, I would rather put my hand in a garbage disposal and flip the switch rather than being a real cowboy like my grandfather and so many of my relatives were and still are.
I’m not talk about a poser who was all hat and no cows like Eric Marsh, I’m talking about the real deal cowboys.
Oh..and all of the other all hat and no cow posers that infest Whiskey Row, especially during “Frontier Days” in the shit hole town that boasts having the “Oldest Rodeo In The World.”
http://www.worldsoldestrodeo.com/
And although my white hot anger over the senseless death of our crew has cooled to a dull red anger over the years, I am obviously still having some anger management issues when it comes to Marsh and Prescott.
All hat and no cows 🐄 posers and Drug Store Cowboys. Prescott is crawling with them 365 days a year, but it takes on epic proportions during the 4th Of July every year.
Actually the gun issue reminds me of a family story. One of my grandfathers brothers was attacked by a black bear 🐻 way back when while he was on horseback up in the mountains by Alpine, which was our ancestral homeland because they were original Mormon pioneers who settled the area.
Anyway…he only had some kind of long single shot rifle because like I said, it was a long time ago. His horse was mauled and bucked him off and then it took off leaving him with the bear. And I dont remember if he sounded it or missed with his one shot, but the bear was mauling him and he survived by ramming that long barreled gun down the throat of the bear killing it.
The rifle is still in the family somewhere and the teeth marks from the bear were clearly visible on the barrel. Like I said, I would have carried a couple of guns just so I didn’t have to look for clubs to beat porcupines to death with if nothing else.
WOUNDED…not sounded.
The bear probably wasn’t attacking my great uncle per se until he was on the ground and the horse was gone. The bear probably wanted to kill and eat the horse and the fact a man was on the horse, probably just wasn’t something the bear thought much about.
Clarification, my uncle’s pick up truck had a stock rack in the back that was maybe six feet high with a gate that opened on the back. So…it wasn’t like the horse 🐎 that was already saddled, had to balance in the back of the truck.
Once it got up in there, the stock gate could closed and latched so the horse was secure with its head out over the cab of the pick up. The second saddled horse was then put into a small one horse trailer that could be pulled behind the pick up truck and we would be off to go back up on The Mountain from town.
And I misspoke, my uncle wouldn’t yell at the horse 🐴 because he never yelled. He would whistle at it, talk to it and make clicking noises and other sounds that were a communication between him and those horses.
Everything was pretty cslm, but at one point, those horses would jump up into the back of the truck and it wasn’t a fluid simple process like having your dog jump up. It more more of an all hell breaking loose scramble by the horse which was where I thought it would break all of its legs and kill both of us in the process because I was holding the reins from the front while my uncle was at the back talking it into jumping up into the back of that pickup truck.
My uncle never even carried a gun at any time up on the mountain and there were mountain lions and bear up there. I would have carried two or three guns with me just for the hell of it. A magnum, an auto and a rifle in a scabbard.
I never ask him why he didn’t carry a gun because for some reason, he would get off his horse, pick up a big stick and beat every porcupine he saw to death and I don’t know why? I would have carried a gun just so I didn’t have to beat porcupines to death with a big stick that I had to find on the ground. Because was a gory and unsettling process, but I’m sure he had a good reason to do it. I just don’t know what it was?
Gary,
I know you love my riddles soooo much
What does Gatlinburg…YH Fire and Paradise have in common?
give you a key letter as I like to hint on IM always
e
Gary…no mention of the .300 Black out today?
The future is 9×39…a new round promising better terminal
Performance
Than subsonic .300 blk
I have try emojis
📖🍕🌵🐾💤💨👍😇😊🔥👋🍳🍦🎼🌃🇺🇸🚒🍫🍭🍪🍰🍔🍟🍺🍻🏊🏄🐰🐶🐱🐱🐒🙈🙉🙊👽🔥🌟💨💪👆🙌🙏🎀did u c hahawhahawaihahawhahawaii tonight
NO…everyone knows the .300 Blackout would make a very poor choice for a modern battle rifle due to the inherent deep flaws and anemic ballistic properties of that particular round. It wouldn’t even penetrate the body armor and ballistic helmets of our principle adversaries at the average distance our military engages the enemy, which is up to about 300 yards.
Where did you come up with that dumb idea anyway? I’m down with the 7.62×51mm NATO until SOCOM eases up on hogging up all the FN SCAR 20’s chambered in a 6.5 Creedmoor, know what I mean…girlfriend?
Oh…and one more thing. I am NOT moving forward until we have more information from those that are hogging that either. This is all part of my “Long Goodbye” as I calculate where I am at currently at with my Executive Summaries.
Because as you know, it is very important for everyone to have access to where my head is at just in case I do stroke out while trying to address the BULLSHIT in that ridiculous article (or something else sets me off) and going forward until such time as YOU or someone like you come clean with what we need to know in order to take the next steps in this frustrating process.
Oh…and one more thing. The military version of the FN SCAR 20 (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) chambered in the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed and it is being used by USSOCOM forces as a Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) for the SPOTTER. I guess the actual sniper has the .50 caliber?
But…I will never want to be able to afford almost $10,000 for the civilian version of those rifles plus the glass, which would also be very expensive because I will never be able to shoot nearly as good as those rifles can.
So…it would be a complete waste of money, an even bigger waste of money than stuff I usually waste money on. Much less than probably about $10.00 or more for a match grade .50 bullet to go BANG. or BOOM!
.300 Blackout…you make me LAUGH 😀😃😄😁😆😅😂🤣!
And I am in no way admitting you were right. I’m pretty sure there is a really big difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a 6.5 Creedmoor? I just don’t have any idea what that difference might be…so I’ll have to get back with you on that one?
I mean…is this a great country or what? For about $15,000, you as a civilian, can buy a military grade rifle and scope that you could be trained (if you aren’t already) to actually target and kill someone up to a mile away.
https://barrett.net/firearms/model82a1/
And…it even comes packed in a custom fitted Pelican hard case. Maybe I do want to afford one after all? I could sell a Jeep. And then I will show little miss smarty pants Joy a thing or two…of that you can be assured!
Actually…I think 🤔 I might have been a little high in my guesstimating how much a Barrett would set you back?
I think you could pick one up for about $12,000 or $13,000 including a top of the line scope, their hand guard and even a suppressor?
Maybe even less if you could find one on sale or locate some kind of super saver coupon?
And here I Oregon, there isn’t even any sales tax and that would save anther 6.5 to 10.5 percent.
This is looking better and better. I would really like to show Joy just who is the real certifiable bad ass because she thinks she is all that!
Gun Forum IM Insert
Gary said: NO…everyone knows the .300 Blackout would make a very poor choice for a modern battle rifle due to the inherent deep flaws and anemic ballistic properties of that particular round. It wouldn’t even penetrate the body armor and ballistic helmets of our principle adversaries at the average distance our military engages the enemy, which is up to about 300 yards.
My Reply- they know because I shared it here ages ago not you today. You learned it from me. The future is 9×39. The Blackout will be just a memory.
Gary said: Where did you come up with that dumb idea anyway?
My reply- You. awhile back. You argued with me back in the day when I said Grendel was the future.
Gary said:
Because as you know, it is very important for everyone to have access to where my head is
My reply: I am scared to make a pun or fun here 😉 on our gun forum inserts…soft smiles
Gary said: Oh…and one more thing. The military version of the FN SCAR 20 (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) chambered in the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed and it is being used by USSOCOM forces as a Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) for the SPOTTER. I guess the actual sniper has the .50 caliber?
My Reply: wrong…Most snipers are using .300 Winchester Magnum…some use .338 LAPUA
Gary Said: more for a match grade .50 bullet to go BANG. or BOOM!
My reply: you will love then my car license plate…it has all to do with Barrett and /or m-2 and its caliber
Gary said- .300 Blackout…you make me LAUGH 😀😃😄😁😆😅😂🤣!
My reply- I had to explain to you awhile back that it was a short range cartridge for pig hunting not a military cartridge…someone has dementia,…you are the .300 blk man and I am glad to see you finally laughing.
Gary said: And I am in no way admitting you were right. I’m pretty sure there is a really big difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a 6.5 Creedmoor? I just don’t have any idea what that difference might be…so I’ll have to get back with you on that one?
My reply- Longer brass and more powder gives you longer range, duh. Poor thing. Glad I can be here for you to help out.
Gary said: Actually…I think 🤔 I might have been a little high in my guesstimating how much a Barrett would set you back?
My Reply: You want more accuracy than the .50 then pick the .416 Barrett- you are welcome Gary…you can call me the HAL 6.5 😉
I will leave you now with some noise Gary
https://youtu.be/e1j5vGO5Knw
You said something about shooting steel – I like moving targets – might be the hunter in me or ones who can shoot back…you have to know by now I like a challenge.
All this gun talk makes me miss Sonny…it is how we began our journey…I would always correct him and he was like kid I was killing deer long before you were alive and even today I corrected him…some areas on guns I am naturally inclined to know because of the people I know…very high folks in the military…I mean my husband and I always spent Valentine’s going to our friends big gun machine gun shoots as a way to show we care…and every year even when knowing Sonny we went to a pal’s to shoot off all his rare guns or what better way to see what’s new in guns than the Game and Fish Expo where you will see my husband’s company displaying the newest current weapons and other manufacturers. That is the way to spend your day or deep in the nest of Moab near the Dead Horse trail 😉
Well we did some shooting–you can remember that 7mm mag–it was a hum dinger and accurate. It was a Remington–if one needed a sniper rifle during war time that one would do it. But the old model 70 Winchester was the good one–still is if you can get a early model–Winchester did a good copy of the Mauser and if you really want to get a very good Mauser and my preference is the 30-06 Swedish Husquevarna. The one I had took a few deer in the long range and could put five in an inch at 100 yards and I could do that off a rest. Those Swedes know their steel and no better rifle can be found –I dont care if you pay 15 grand–that 700 dollar rifle will match your high price gun for accuracy.
And I don’t know the answer to this riddle either. What does Gatlinburg…YH Fire and Paradise have in common?
answer: evil
it actually is an “in person” answer and that is stored with the right folks Gary “just in case”
it is 2-11-19 1pm and I wont be able to come on a pc for a long while as I head out to rough it and hope to come back a certified FF…take care…was fun catching up 🙂
And why are you going to Moab and with whom? You aren’t a Jeeper. Who do you know who owns a Jeep? What kind is it and how is it modified and with what accessories? Please send me a photo. Unfortunately, I won’t be down there for another couple of months because everything was booked up and I couldn’t get in anywhere even though I started trying months ago because of the two big Jeep events. The Jeep Safari over three weekends including Easter is the biggest one. Are you going up there for that? You know Deadhorse Point was what “Thelma and Louise” drove off…right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=66CP-pq7Cx0
Or short version for you Type A people
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4z88U915uq8
And you know it’s hard to play both “Good Cop” and “Bad Cop” at the same time with the same person…especially in the Cyber Space. So, you should cut me some slack…I’m doing the very best I can under the circumstances.
You are a tough nut 🥜 to crack…so I finally had to give up and admit defeat.
Plus…I really didn’t care because I don’t Jeep like that anyway. Too many Jeeps and people and the wait times are too long. It’s way worse than Disneyland on the last weekend before school starts. Although I do like to look at all of the eye candy.
I mean…it’s not uncommon to see rigs that are north of a hundred grand plus the original cost of the Jeep during the next 2.5 months.
People, Concepts, and Entities I Intend To Condemn
1. Maclean & NEIL Inc.
I believe Maclean, NEIL and their Posse. have always had predetermined conclusions regarding the causal factors of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and have engaged in fruitless and disengenous searchs for deliberately misinterpreted and misleading facts to support their preconceived and false conclusions. I completely dismiss their ridiculous and bogus, “Lookout Marsh, Cut Staub, Pilot Line, and Hidden Messenges From The Beyond in Radio Traffic” theories as at best…distractions and at worst…fraudulent attempts to shift the responsibility for the deaths of the crew through gross misdirection. So…you know…fuck them and the horses they rode in on. I think all of their bullshit is directly tied to their close association with and cultivation of, the “Sqeaky Wheel” families in order to gain access to highly prejudicial and politically motivated claptrap and ridiculous key inside information that is purportedly true in order to support what at the end of the day is their profit motive. Although when I actually write my book, I will tell you how I really feel and what I think without holding back nearly as much as I am now in the interest of keeping this category concise.
2, The National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) for their outdated and deeply flawed wildland firefighters training that includes their over dependence on on-line training courses and their member agencies abdication of their responsibilities to adequately train their wildland firefighters to third parties who are profit motivated. Why I am so confident I am right? Because the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew laid down in the dirt to be burned alive in an area about the size of a three car garage when they needed up to 16.5 acres to escape death and serious injuries from burns IF they would have been inside of their fire shelters and sufficiently prepared for the onslaught of 60 foot horizontal flame lengths at temperatures that may have exceeded 2000 degrees they were about to experience and I think many of them never even sufficiently got inside their basting and roasting bags. And those stupid fucks (the NWCG) and their sycophants, sympathizers, enablers and members seen to think that everything is fine after more than five years without making any noticeable or measurable improvements in the way they do business.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Wildfire_Coordinating_Group
https://onlinetraining.nwcg.gov/
I need to go take my blood pressure pill and a baby aspirin…but I’ll be back after I lie down in the dark and listen to some Enya on my Ipod for a while. Maybe a long while because I’m trying to build up enough strength and the patience of Job before I even attempt to address the article that was written by the well meaning but seriously brain damaged and completely ignorant structural firefighter whose link shall remain nameless right now. Although I think I might have already really fucked up and posted it once but I can’t remember right now because it happened before I woke up this morning. It’s hard to be me. You should just try it for one day and see how you would like to be me…it’s complicated.
Oh…and one more thing. I’m still not a fan of the whole backfire out the Shrine Area Cocept either, but I haven’t made up my mind on that one…yet because my mind is like a steel trap that in normally closed. But in the case if the Shrine backfire, I’m not ready to condemn it yet because The Woodsman has bought into it even though Joy has assured me via this thread that he is in fact…a “Keyboard Commando.” and that doesn’t sound good. And I’m still waiting for HAL 9000 to, “get off his ass” and go help Joy. Hahaha…the joke is on her because HAL 9000 doesn’t even have an ass…just ports for miscellaneous peripheral devices.
And I don’t know about the rest of you, but I was kinda amused when President Trump assured the nation that he has a big penis even though he has really tiny little hands during one of his speeches at a for his supporters at a Trump Rally and the adult film actress, otherwise known as a Porn Star, assured the nation she could in fact, describe President Trumps penis.
But my “Weird Shit O’Meter” is peggged out that every time I turn on the news now, I have to hear about a stranger than fiction connection between President Trump, David PECKER, the National Inquirer, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Intelligence Services, the brutal torture, murder and dismemberment of a Washington Post reporter, the bimbo girlfriend of the founder of Amazon, and the text photo of the penis of the richest man in the world!
Is it just me, or does there seem to be a lot of random connections in the news between the Trump Adminisration and penis’ that I just don’t remember ever hearing anything about during the administration of any other American President, Democrat or Republican?
I mean…I remember the good ole days when I could count on the National Inquirer to just keep me up to speed on the latest about alien abductions and the subsequent births of alien babies by alien impregnated male Trump Supporters while I waited in the check out line. What is up with these news cycles these days?
And what the hell happened to RTS anyway. Don’t tell me he has been abducted and impregnated by an alien? I’m starting to get worried about him because I know how he feels about abortions and I don’t think it would be healthy for him to carry an alien baby to full term and a partial birth abortion is definitely out of the question,
And by the way, as a Christian, I do share RTS’ views on abortion, I just didn’t think I would ever have to wonder how he feels about abortion now that he might be actually carrying an alien baby? I do know how I would feel, I would want to make an exception in my case, I mean…an alien baby could really hurt coming out even with a spinal block, know what I mean? And the costs associated with raising an alien baby would be through the roof, what about T ball and college? OMGosh…there are no end to the questions I have.. I hope it’s not true and RTS isn’t really carrying an alien baby after his recent abduction. I hope they just PROBED him instead, but I definitely don’t want to read about it, so just keep it to yourself RTS. And maybe the National Inquirer…okay Big Guy?.
It’s obvious isn’t it? I would much rather think and write about RTS’ recent alien abduction and impregnation because I am just avoiding the 800 pound gorilla in the room 🦍 and I just can’t bring myself to finish reading, much less analyzing and then writing about that bullshit article written by the well meaning but certifiably stupid fuck of a structural fireman 🚒 who always shows up in a big red truck.
Say…did you hear the one about the dingy woman (Oh no…I feel myself slipping back into the abyss of misogyny) whose house was on fire, so she called up the fire department to report it? She started to hang up before she gave them her address, so the FIREMAN 🚒 said…”Wait…how do we get there?”
“Duhhhhhhh” replied the woman…”Big Red Fire Engine 🚒!”
I mean…I don’t want to sound like I am unappreciative or anything because I guess it’s better now having at least somebody thinking and writing about wildland firefighters, especially hotshots than it was in my day when nobody did either one?
But…does it have to be one stupid fuck of a FIREMAN 🚒 who doesn’t know shit from Shinola about being a wildland firefighter, much less a hotshot other than what he picked up from who has to be the dumbest fuck who ever laced up a pair of Whites and saddle up so he could hump it up the mountain…Shit-For-Brains Sad Sack (of shit) Donut 🍩 Hole? I mean…REALLY? C’mon man!
I would really rather like to know how RTS’ pregnancy is coming along? Does anybody know what trimester he is in?
Whoops, I meant to write;
People, Concepts (general ideas) THEORIES (educated guesses) and Entities I Intend To Condemn [in my tome and aptly renamed, “Our Fire Gods Betrayed Us…And Broke Our Hearts”]
Hey…check out the rifle I bought yesterday. I know I didn’t need it, but I got drunk as a sailor and this was the result. Do I regret it? No! I need to go on a road trip to New Mexico and go shooting with Sonny and Charlie.
https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/gun-test-sig-sauer-sig716-dmr/
And I know it’s not a 6.5 Grendel, but they said everything they could make was going to Serbian SOCOM.
Although I am taking a hard look at the 6.5 Creedmoor Fabrique Nationale Herstal (FN) Banana Split SCAR 20S just as soon as our SOCOM stops buying up every single one of them FN can make because I don’t want another 7.62×51mm NATO. And Joy thinks I can’t change, mature and grow as a person.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q0X3xEBu41g&t=1s
Ckeck out that video when that dude is laying on the ground shooting the SCAR 20s, I bet if he were a left hand shooter (and standing up) every one of those hot brass would be going down his shirt. That only has to happen once to make a believer out of you. Thank God I am right handed, just the way God intended shooters to be or they would make rifles like that with brass deflectors.
beautiful noise
Thank You Gary
been out as long as we have been here…upgraded version…but wow it makes me feel good to hear the ding, ding, ding
thanks
Caseless Ammo is the future
Everything else is just same old…same old
Gary Said:
I believe Maclean, NEIL and their Posse. have always had predetermined conclusions regarding the causal factors of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster
I disagree
I think this is a layered onion and I think they fall trap to more data as many you have been naming out recently except yourself in this…you are exempt because you are…but there is alot of people who have areas they heard or rumored or this or that but there is not enough data made public to be assertive to place them in predetermined conclusions but I think for all of you out there you can ask for the FOIA and Public Records Index Log and do your own homework who is crossing “t’s” and dotting their “i’s” in this…
You want me to place something on IM prematurely for some odd reason and you really feel RTS is with me and we are in cahoots and not factual. I am in Congress Arizona possibly soon to head to Moab for my jeep trailing fun or am I already here in Moab….
He has allowed me at certain educational conferences and we have made a pact to meet ever so to get data made to make a post that you do like but don’t like…stop being so hungry for the YH Fire words and wanting more and more…
see you in Moab when you get here 😉
They have shared areas without resources yet but it may come out in their book. I am not concerned to label them such way but unfortunately alot of us are being labelled by Gary…
I think you can be so calloused at times and off the charts especially aliens ????
I was disappointed that I got texts and I have been tempted at times to show them that someone in their “posse” (as you state and call it) told me Amanda Marsh was at peace with me until I saw the reaction I did last school year and I let it go but if it kept continuing year after year- it is not on me – it is on her and I am not stopping training because I am not welcome there by some.
I am at peace.
I am glad you are still allowed here Gary even if you have times of ill-sharing that many call attacks You make me a better person for being here and alive and freely sharing.
You make me miss xxxfullsailxxx and the whole memories where EN emails JD she is in this for the hikers and yet the stance of verbiage was towards her not the hikers from xxxfullsailxxx
NWCG does need a refresher and I agree there.
I have to stay mindful and get my areas done
I am sorry if I am not engaging much with you my dear old time friend.
It is unfortunate you do not see the beauty in all of us on IM
I am not just a tour guide as you feel and maybe others as you proved on IM you have a following
I have taken my 970th hike but that does not include the many I did over and over for some
IF ONLY one RIGHT person out of all those hikes was there
I am thinking it was beneficial
This past year all the training and conferences
IF ONLY one RIGHT person out of all those…
Out of almost 500 people I directly helped after the YH Fire try to pick the pieces and still have to keep burying more and more people
IF ONLY one RIGHT person out of all those…
I do not need an audience
I have Jesus…
I know this
My roots do not keep me warm
I always believed in areas I should not have until I listened to you on IM years ago
across the times I know you are a Blessing to my life
I am sorry I am thorn to yours-
Until we are old and keep growing I will always look to you as my mentor and part of the process of knowing my true self
Forever grateful for you
True
I had a stuffed animal (gorilla) who I named “Nothing” as a child…his first name was Congo that was given to him by Russ the manufacturer but at the time I kept being told due to my surroundings I would never be anything…funny I cannot say it was my inner voices…it is the lady laying in hospice right now and I am struggling do I go visit after all the decades of the torment…then yesterday I usually read the scripture part of ODB ( https://odb.org/2019/02/09/discovering-my-true-self/ ) and my partner had me read it because he was not there to read it so I did and the tears flew so gracefully down my cheek and all I could think about was that gorilla I named Nothing and I thought to you the past 2 or too many seasons discounting my time spent just here because I have to place the data in a way I do not hurt a woman who was married 68 years and went to CA to bury her husband to come back to see her home and world changed forever due to the “orange” gorilla of another. and too many others I live here means just that and you can respect or disrespect. When time has passed and certain people showed me their emails with you in it I did become selective in sharing behind the scenes with you and WTKTT (due to same reason on the Sesame to Shrine lack of faith and your building audience) and JD because last Summer JD did not GET my data is all encrypted and not easy to get to and it had other areas of my own life on the EHD that I was not going to ALLOW JD to just copy the whole thing (it is all messy and mixed in with intent)….I needed to take the time out and do it and I do not even allow RTS to know the data so you are wrong to think he knows anything…however we decided then I am going forward in my life away from the fire last Summer (live my life outside the fire) but we would meet ever so and slowly process this out not fast and that has been hard for RTS too and others because they wanted more faster and sooner.
My roots do not keep me warm but the love of Him does…
Have fun in Moab and hope to bump into you there-
Take Care!
enjoy the upcoming Holiday everyone…
Of course you disagree with me!
What do you think about the big news though? The word on the street is that RTS was abducted by aliens, impregnated, he is carrying his alien baby to full term and is going to send it to NAU…my alma mater?
So…are you as excited for RTS as I am? When you talk to him, tell him to call me and I will give him the inside scoop on NAU. It’s a good college, but it’s not for everybody. It’s get pretty cold there in the winter time and it usually gets quite a bit if snow. I also heard that RTS wants to start his alien baby on skiing lessons just as soon as it is old enough, so NAU might be a good choice? The Snow Bowl is just up the mountain past the Flagstaff Hotshot Ranch…those lucky fucks!
And remember Joy, it’s not personal…it’s just business.
Gary Said:
And remember Joy, it’s not personal…it’s just business
My reply- gotcha.
We do agree though March 15 is a better time to just bump into each other at the Dead Horse Point Trail…right?
it it is true this rumor you are hearing we shall name it Chemosh
why don’t you do a book on hidden gems starring Gary 😉
if it is true…
correction
it it is true
that did not go right
darn thing
correction if it is true…
Now you are just humoring me. I wonder how far away that guy’s steel is? I count three seconds (maybe a littke more?) at 2600 feet per second, let’s see…that’s about…well, I bet he has it at 9000 feet or 100 yards which would be like shooting fish 🐟 🐠 in a barrel even for a 7.62×51mm NATO, especially with that scope, damn…right Joy? You know I still love you the sinner, I just don’t love your sin of not telling us what you know.
Except for that wind, talk about bullet drift! I bet that Nightforce scope he has on that SCAR cost almost as much than the rifle did. And it cost $4600 plus some change, except it is probably a loaner to him from FN.
Maybe when this is all over you and I can shoot some steel? Except I don’t want you to do to me what Charlie did to Sonny…okay girlfriend? 🙂
I’m not knockin’ the guys skill level thoug, because he is obviously a shooter. He just wanted us to be able to hear the rifle go “BANG” and then hear the steel ring. I bet that guy could hit that steel at 600 yards even in that wind…no problem. What do you think Joy?
Whoops,
I meant to write $4500.00. I think my mind is getting mushy. Maybe I should get an MRI and have my brain tumor checked after all?
https://fnamerica.com/products/fn-scar-series/fn-scar-20s/
I hate the full on 🍌 split color scheme though. What were they thinking?
Although I should have added, “IF you can find one for sale!” You might have to pay 💰 a premium mark up on the damn things for awhile until supply catches up with demand.
FN’s website say’s “800 yards with ease”, I bet the 6.5 Creedmoor does 1000 yards with ease, what do you think Joy?
This is called “establishing rapport” with your subject at FLETC. Do you think it is working with Joy? Or do you think she is on to me, because she’s pretty sharp you know?
Gary said- FN’s website say’s “800 yards with ease”, I bet the 6.5 Creedmoor does 1000 yards with ease, what do you think Joy?
MY Reply:
Yes 6.5 Creedmoor was designed up to 1600 yards but a DM would not be taking those long shots-
I thought that was what sniper rifles were made for-
wee more training would be required, eh? no?
you are becoming the George Carlin of Wildland Fire Industry…Hal 9000 does not have an ass…sure does…https://www.google.com/search?q=computer+ass&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFloyU_LLgAhWUGjQIHRcPAcUQ_AUIDigB&biw=1396&bih=686#imgrc=KnJ1TqESE3HsXM: … totally kidding…I thought he was a Democrat…and the symbol for Democrats are Donkeys…right?
Me sharp? Nah…but I know what needle says to the other…you look sharp today.
Jokes fly over my head gary- along with big jets full of slurry drops…stay focused…keep your eyes on the weather and fire…
Plus you quitting- not in you.
Sometimes you are too SUPER hilarious for your own good…the whole Alien impregnation and Sonny did not chime in shocks me…
Remember we are suppose to cease here until we come up with better data for Hal 9000…back to concentrating on other tasks.
Caio!
You got me here when you talk ballistics not get ballistics…duh
I know I got a little off message today and went down a few rabbit 🐇 holes and I feel bad about it…I really do. Especially after you so cruelly mocked me by writing, “why don’t you do a book on hidden gems starring Gary” because I don’t think you really meant that.
I am going to try and get a good nights sleep tonight so I can get my head straight and least think about finishing reading that article by the well meaning but stupid fuck FIREMAN and respond accordingly over the next few days…I need to ease into it so I don’t have a stroke.
Plus, I have some more, “People, Concepts, and Entities I Intend To Condemn” to add to my greatest hits list.
And this one will probably really surprise you IF you have been following my thinking the last FIVE YEARS, but I’m going to add the Yarnell Hill Fire Team to my as yet unpublished “Gets a Pass” list. This last five years plus has been a real personal growth experience for me, almost a spiritual journey for my soul and I have matured quite a bit as a person and learned so much in the tortured and convoluted process.
And it’s not just because Roy Hall and I knew each other when we were little kids. Or because we were partners in crime together because one day his brother (I think he was the older of the two) and I broke into one of the buildings on the Milky Way Ranch that belonged to John Wayne and some partners named Johnson from down in Eloy, Arizona…I think? Anyway, we didn’t even steal anything and I don’t even know why we burglarized the joint in the first place or how we got out there because it was a really long way from town. And I only had a skateboard to get around on and no bike. Maybe we walked out there, but it was a really long way to walk?
I mean…that story goes way beyond my whole “One or two degrees of separation” in the wildland firefighting community concept to the next level and is a really weird connection…right?
1600 hundred yards? I know military snipers hit man size targets up to one mile away with a McMillian or Barrett .50 caliber, but 1600 yards with a 6.5 Grendel? Let’s see now…that’s…that’s…that’s…a really long way.
Yes…we are definitely going to have to shoot some steel when this is all over…girlfriend! I obviously could use some schoolin’!
And when you talk to RTS, tell him he should definitely opt for the Caesarian, othwise…this is what he is going to look like when he has his alien baby.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5OVdoTDuKT0
Memo To Self;
Be sure to add,, “objectivity and integrity” as in…Maclean & NEIL surrendered theirs in exchange for access to the Sqeaky Wheel Families.
And I can’t remember if that bullshit was called a “Scout Line” or a “ Pilot Line.” In any case, it’s a “Bullshit Line.”
Marsh killed his crew…accept it so we can move on and fix why he killed his crew.
P.S., You stupid self serving fucks!
Joy,
I’m going to write this one more time to see if I can get through to you. You knew where you lived before you ever started down this road. And because you knew where you lived before you ever started down this road, I don’t now accept that as a reason why you can’t contribute what you have to this effort just like everyone else has without holding back. A person can’t kill their parents and then ask for sympathy, make excuses, or get a pass because they are an orphan.
And as far as your investment goes…let me tell you about mine. If someone wants to rent me for a project, based on my education, training and experience, it will cost them a minimum of $150.00 per hour, plus expenses. And my clock runs even when I am sitting on the toilet thinking about their project. Based on those numbers…how much do you think I have invested in this thread? I can’t count that high…can you?
Everyone else here is in the same position I am, no one’s time is free. How much do you think you would have to pay HAL 9000 based on his knowledge, skills and abilities? I don’t know either because I can’t count that high, nor could I afford hiim.
Your investment here based on your education, training and experience in the area we are studying is worth very little beyond your telling us of your personal observations from the day of the fire. You are worth a great deal as a hiking guide to people who want to tour the area…but that doesn’t help us here. It helps those you have guided, but unlike Sonn…your life’s experiences don’t apply here.
The Woodsman summed up what I was trying to say, but as usual he said it much better than I did because he is so much more articulate than I am while expressing himself because of his command of the English language, his vocabulary and his writing skill. So…I am not going to try again to express my own thoughts any further…I am just going to say, “Ditto”, to what he wrote down below.
In addition…I have decided to terminate my own participation on this thread and in fact…”I won’t be back.” I am going to post my thoughts and further writing on my own website where I don’t have to fret about what anyone else is doing or not doing. I hope you and RTS are very content sitting on the information you have gained while participating here on this thread. What good is it going to do to save wildland firefighters lives in the future? Can you answer that question for me?
Never mind, I won’t be back to read your response even though I know you will have a long one that wont make any sense to me. I for one…am no longer interested in what either you or RTS know, think, or think you know.
Oh…and one more thing. They have always known time was on their side and all they had to do was wait for us to wind down. So…they win…again.
1. “Once may be anomaly, twice may be a coincidence, but three times is definitely a pattern.”
2. “How Big Is Big Enough Because Size Does Matter?”
3. “Train like you fight, and train to win every time because under stress…we all revert to our training on autopilot.”
4. “Hubris is the Number 1 killer of hotshots.”
5. “Our Fire Gods Betrayed Us…And Broke Our Hearts”
6. “The FIRE can’t think ahead to make plans or develop tactics and strategies. And it must follow all of laws of nature all of the time and therefore it is completely predictable. There isn’t any acceptable reason why we shouldn’t win every time without the loss of life or serious injuries barring a random act of fate..”
7. “Wild land firefighters including hotshots aren’t hero’s, they are for the most part ordinary people who are willing and able to accomplish extraordinary tasks when called upon to do so in the service of their fellow man (and women)”
8. “There aren’t any saints on the fireline; there are just a bunch of sinners who love to fight wildfire.”
9. “The 10 and the 18 are sound safety rules and guidelines that have been painstakingly developed one at a time over more than 100 years of wildland firefighting at the cost of hundreds of lives to keep wild land firefighters safe on the fireline. When wild land firefighters ignore or violate them, they do so at their own peril and risk not only their lives, but the lives of those they are responsible for and wildland firefighting history will judge them accordingly..”
10. The three things that are most important to wildland firefighters is tradition, tradition and tradition. They have been trained to fight today’s wildfires like they fought yesterday’s wildfires. Unfortunately…tomorrow’s wildfires are increasingly becoming wildfires the like of which no one has seen before that are outperforming everyone’s expectations. Wild land firefighters have been trained to fight fire in a logical progression, painting by the numbers, step 2 follows step 1, step 4 follows step 3, step 6 follows step 5 and so on and so forth until the fire has been defeated. If the fire does A, we are trained to respond with Plan A, if the fire does B, we are trained to respond with Plan B, if the fire does C, we are trained respond with Plan C. This is what I call “Linear Firefighting” and it has served us well for decades. Unfortunately…wildfires are increasingly exponentially outperforming the old models and I think wildland firefighting best practices get in front of this trend by training to respond with “Expodential Firefighting.” I believe the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster was an extreme case of linear firefighting techniques meeting exponential fire behavior and the wildfire won. And it could have been so much worse except we really got lucky because dozens of citizens if not hundreds of them could have died. I still can’t believe no residents did die in the fire.
That’s a really long set up to be able to write, “Linear firefighting tactics and strategies are no match for exponential fire behavior.”
Oh…by the way, I am trying to sum up my random thoughts on wildland firefighting from the past five years before I go so those thoughts can forever be memorialized on this thread because it’s very important for everyone to know what I think.
11. Buy a respirator and use it at least during mop up because the outdated “Bandit Method” of utilizing a large handkerchief just isn’t enough and it never has been to keep all kinds of nasty particulates from potentially having a negative impact on your throat and lungs. Seriously…buy one and use it.
12. And remember there is always an alternative to laying down in the dirt and being burned alive if the area that is available to you to deploy a fire shelter is not survivable by developing and keeping a winning mindset to, “Finish the Fight.” And if need be…die on your feet while trying to create distance between yourself and the threat because like the NIFC website says;
“As always, the fire shelter is the last line of defense when facing a fire entrapment, escape is always the highest priority. Fire shelters will not guarantee a firefighter’s survival in an entrapment situation. Firefighters should do everything they can to avoid situations where they need to deploy a fire shelter.”
https://www.nifc.gov/fireShelt/fshelt_main.html
I3. In this day and age, if Walmart can track every truck they operate and individual containers of fish and other perishables with cheap, widely available and easy to use GPS beacon locators, we should be able to do the same with significant assets on fires…like hotshot crews. Not so close air support can be sent to save them such as idiots like Sad Sack and that stupid movie say is possible, but so so Plans knows where significant resources are located on a fire at any given time for a whole host of good and logical reasons.
And if you want to know the dangers of keeping on perpetuating what I call the, “Big Lie” from the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster, just read this article. It’s enough to make me feel nauseated 🤢!
https://www.firerescuemagazine.com/articles/print/volume-13/issue-3/departments/wildland-urban-interface/hotshots.html
14. It would take minds with far more capabilities than mine and significant resources to answer the following question, but I really would like to know the answer.
“Aside from the human tragedy and cost that is associated with the Yanell Hill Fire Disaster that is incalculable, I would like to know how much money the Arizona Department Of Forestry and Fire Management saved by fighting fires “on the cheap” as policy when compared to the catastrophic losses as a result of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster because they sent a poorly trained, poorly equipped, poorly managed, poorly led, and most of all…a poorly motivated prison hand crew to kill the baby dragon on the mountain in its lair?
I know all of my assumptions are true because this crew in fact failed to kill the baby dragon on the mountain and as a result of their incompetence and dereliction of duty…it grew into a monster that managed to engage in immeasurable destruction before it finally burned itself out.
IF the crew would have been wearing locator beacons and IF an air tanker would have been available to drop on their exact location (which apparently it was in this freak incident) no one should ever, under any circumstances even think about depending on close “air support” to ever save them…IMHO.
Because based on my extensive experience as a hotshot at the front of the so many fires I have now forgotten about most of them when air tankers were dropping on us, the variables that are present with every retardant drop every time are so innumerable and the outcomes are so uncertain given so many unknowns, air support was never a factor in any decision I ever made about anything pertaining to my crew and I doubt if that has changed.
Wildland firefighting and military combat have many similarities, but whoever thinks close air support is one of them is either completely uniformed, or a complete idiot…IMHO.
Wildland firefighting does NOT have any aircraft that even begin to minic the “close air support” capabilities that those completely uninformed people or idiots are equating with military options like, “The Angel of Death,”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AC-130
or “Warthogs.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II
No way…no how…so forget about it!
In other words, if you have made a series of mistakes so bad and violated so many of the 10 (rules) and the 18 (guidelines) that you have managed to position yourself or your crew in such an untenable position where you are hoping for close air support to save you, you might as well bend over and kiss your ass goodbye because you are already dead…unless you have the mindset and you can save yourself by “Finishing The Fight” on your own….which you must do.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
February 8, 2019 at 9:41 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I3. In this day and age, if Walmart can
>> track every truck they operate and
>> individual containers of fish and other
>> perishables with cheap, widely available
>> and easy to use GPS beacon locators,
>> we should be able to do the same with
>> significant assets on fires…like hotshot
>> crews. Not so close air support can be
>> sent to save them such as idiots like
>> Sad Sack and that stupid movie say
>> is possible, but so so Plans knows where
>> significant resources are located on a
>> fire at any given time for a whole host
>> of good and logical reasons.
Just a few days ago… that all actually just took a step closer to becoming a LAW ( at least for Federal fires ).
Senate Bill 47
The Natural Resources Management Act
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/47/text
Just 3 days ago, on February 5, 2019, the U.S. Senate finally had the ‘vote to proceed’ on this and it passed with 99 out of 100 Senators voting ‘Yes’.
Only Kentucky Senator Rand Paul voted ‘No’.
The next step is a REAL ‘vote’ on the bill in the Senate, then it goes to the House for a vote, then to the President’s desk for signature.
No word on how much longer all that will take… but with 99 out of 100 Senators voting ‘Yes’… that’s a good sign that all they have to do is get off their asses and push the bill forward and it will receive the same almost-unanimous support in the House.
What the dipshit in the Oval Office might do is, of course, anyone’s guess… but he would be hard pressed to refuse to sign something coming our of both houses of Congress with near-unanimous support.
From the text of the bill at the link above…
———————————————–
SEC. 1114. Wildfire technology modernization.
(a) Purpose.—The purpose of this section is to promote the use of the best available technology to enhance the effective and cost-efficient response to wildfires—
(d) Location systems for wildland firefighters.
(1) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this Act, subject to the availability of appropriations, the Secretaries, in coordination with State wildland firefighting agencies, shall jointly develop and operate a tracking system (referred to in this subsection as the “system”) to remotely locate the positions of fire resources for use by wildland firefighters, including, at a minimum, any fire resources assigned to Federal type 1 wildland fire incident management teams.
(2) REQUIREMENTS.—The system shall—
(A) use the most practical and effective technology available to the Secretaries to remotely track the location of an active resource, such as a Global Positioning System;
(B) depict the location of each fire resource on the applicable maps developed under subsection (c)(3);
(C) operate continuously during the period for which any firefighting personnel are assigned to the applicable Federal wildland fire; and
(D) be subject to such terms and conditions as the Secretary concerned determines necessary for the effective implementation of the system.
(3) OPERATION.—The Secretary concerned shall—
(A) before commencing operation of the system—
(i) conduct not fewer than 2 pilot projects relating to the operation, management, and effectiveness of the system; and
(ii) review the results of those pilot projects;
(B) conduct training, and maintain a culture, such that an employee, officer, or contractor shall not rely on the system for safety; and
(C) establish procedures for the collection, storage, and transfer of data collected under this subsection to ensure—
(i) data security; and
(ii) the privacy of wildland fire personnel.
—————————————————
WOW…that is Big News indeed since I didn’t even know it was on anybody’s radar screen. Thanks
And like I said with the smoke inhalation, medical disability retirement issue, at least somebody is aware there is a problem, which is a huge step forward.
And when I said the slurry bombers were dropping on us, I meant of course they were dropping on the head of the fires, we were inconsequential in the equation.
But, I have seen slurry bombers miss their targets far more than I have seen them hit them. And I’m not talking trash any of those pilots because you would have to put a gun to my head and make me believe you were going to kill me if I didn’t climb up into a bomber to get me to go for a ride with those fearless daredevils.
It’s just that there are too many variables and other unknown factors that come into play that keep anything like what you could call a precision drop from becoming a reality.
This is what close air support looks like for front line infantry from an A-10 Thunderbolt (Warthog) there just isn’t an equivalent in wildland firefighting and I don’t believe there ever will be.
BAD ASS…and I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of this!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dHgSuLZCWj8
And if they ever do develop anything that comes down in a more efficient targeted way, I don’t think you would want it coming down on you because it would probsbly seriously injure or kill you. Water💧 , which of course is the base ingredient of slurry can’t be compressed because it is so solid and it is very heavy at 8 pounds per gallon. Don’t those VLATS, which didn’t exist back in the day, carry 11,000 gallons? That would be 88,000 pounds of a base ingredient alone which could be coming down at the same airspeed of the bomber, maybe 160 mph or more? Ouch!
Tex Gilligan
7:54 AM (0 minutes ago)
to Arizona.Desert.Walker
I agree with you. We have both been a thorn to the system–My allegiance is more to the citizens–they took the greatest hit and huge number of deaths and sickness compared to the fire fighters–the fire fighter thing can be easily fixed when they quit hiring educated idiots to lead men into stupid places to go. But the slurry dumping is a secret–going to be denied until the end–there is billions involved and when you have men like Trump–he could give a shit about lives unless it is someone that has billions. You see he has no humanity in him–acting like everyone is a criminal unless they are wealthy. The fire men themselves will change much–the old timers with much experience–you are an exception because you and i were there and your photos have screwed the system–they do not lie and prove what was wrong. Sad they would put men like Marsh in charge of a crew–shows how little education helps when it comes to using your head. During the Nam war, it was the old hardened and battle experienced sergeant that you could depend upon to keep you alive–not the college educated wanna be 90 day wonder lieutenant above him.
We sometimes put too much value on education on these types jobs where common sense and long experience are needed by the men responsible for their men’s lives. I can tell you I would prefer a boss that had long field experience over the educated wonder that is a wannabe wild land fire fighter trying to prove his balls and worth. The old timer already knows his worth and the value of the lives under him–that young educated boss trying to prove himself by risking lives is the horror of wild land fire fighting–you just have your crazy on elm street clothed in wild land fire fighting gear.
Gary is right–the field has much changed–when you have these extreme fires–no home or Boulder Ranch is worth trying to save at the expense of young lives. Just recently the 100 million dollar fire in Montana and Utah burned until the rain abated it—very little help from wild land fire fighters–yet they need to be there because there are many situations they do so much good–but to risk them needless is the worst of criminal acts and should be treated as such.
Because this has been done at Yarnell–the loved ones deserve a fair compensation if there can be one–but a minimum of what that man’s pay would be for the rest of the average life span of a person and a million dollars or so additional. Nothing can replace the loved one–but those children deserve the monies to raise them well and educate them freely.
If there can be any good from the hiring of Marsh it would be to show how dangerous it is to put the wrong person in charge of young wild land fire fighters lives. He became a killer but should have never been there in the first place. This was no accident already proven just by the act of defying all known safety rules–but even more common sense–something even a civilian could see without wild land fire fighting experience.
He also proved how cheaply these men are paid–especially under the existing system of hiring–you go in under who? Someone like Marsh and your life expectancy goes way down.
So we need to see those grunt wages doubled or even tippled
But my interest is in the civilian situation–the old wild land fire fighters will be listened to since they know much better than I about what needs to be done to clean up the system
The deaths from slurry, especially to the elderly and those already taxed in their immune systems is atrocious. Just look at Yarnell and how many deaths resulted from inundating the little town with retardant–twice–once in 2015 and previously in the World’s greatest fire fighting debacle of all time–2013 and the beginning of the .deaths of many by the killing of 19 young wildland fire fighters.
The total is well nigh 200 and rising–I have lost many friends–Jack Robinson not the least, but Zack Ashoor, Kathy Walker, Raul and Teresa–both down–and god some very young ones that worked much in the retardant areas–Kevin for one, like Kathy in their 40’s. Kevin was in and out moving iron and dust work constantly–healthy and pert–alive and happy–now dead. Sickening–and no explanation other than they were either living in Yarnell or they had a good exposure to the retardant residues.
It reads like a Chernobyl death list–yet who will listen? It is like the Chernobyl incident that the Russian Government tried all means to cover. But despite the billions of profits made by these slurry dumps, some of us are well informed of the poisons resulting from these dumps.
I know I have been affected–Never have I been so debilitated until after those slurry dumps. I was a resident there during and after both occurrences. Now I can barely walk 50 yards without having to stop and collect myself in order to convince myself to do another 50. This is my tribute to you that are doing ;the dumps–you heroes are not such heroes as you think. I know the dangers you do, but do you take time to know what you are doing to the people you inundated? Or are you working in ignorance as I was when I mined Uranium? If you are it is time to get educated because the companies that distribute this stuff have no compassion for the health of the people and environment they pollute no more than the Uranium Mining Companies cared for the Uranium Miner when profits were their priority. Karma is bad or good–See the end of the man that flew the Enola Gay. Yet there are evil men/women who exist without conscience.
Very good advice from Gary about the respirator–the chemical effects of the smoke and retardant are cumulative so will show up in time. Much like Uranium and hard rock mining–the cancers, lung and heart problems generally will not appear until after retirement when one should be enjoying life free of the illness caused by the pollutants. Wild land fire fighters do not realize the effects, but those I know are down with various illnesses. Most are convinced that they suffer these maladies from old age but truth is that smoke alone is harmful. Add the chemical pollutants from slurry and other chemical pollutants and you have the causes of the ailments –heart, cancer, lung problems, and other ailments due to the pollutants. Wild land fire fighters should have free and expert medical care much like the war time Veteran for all diseases.
My cancers and heart attacks did not appear immediately after Uranium mining–and it is well known that the incidence of cancer in Uranium miners is high above average. I think the same is in the wild land fire fighter and if he does escape alive he will like the miner later in life suffer these same diseases. I do know i had cancers before the pollutants of Slurry at Yarnell. I was one to breath that residue smoke–our faces were black from the dust and smoke on those early hikes and even our masks we attempted to use became extremely blackened. Those residues of smoke contain plenty of deadly chemicals from the slurry and include chemicals that we do not know. Combinations of chemicals can be extreme carcinogens. For example something about those hikes upset my system to set off killer heart attacks. But now the cancers I have are very active where before the fire I could have them removed usually rather easily–so the chemicals I believe have caused a rapid volatility.
I feel like we were guinea pigs at Yarnell since few small towns have had such close and extreme concentrations of slurry all about the town and even into it. I will continue to talk about this because it not only regards the many deaths and illnesses of civilians at Yarnell after the slurry concentrations, but it also has to be a concern to every wild land fire fighter.
When I was young and mining hard rock and Uranium I never had problems–All my family of Irish people were mostly farmers that had emigrated to Southern Illinois area north of Mount Vernon. My aunts nearly all lived into their 90’s –a good long life disease free. My siblings –two sisters and a brother are free of cancer and my sisters in their 89’s. They are living good health wise except my brother who by his drug associations is suffering from hep c and who knows what else. The thing is, our occupations have given us a bad rap for health, yet the truth of it is played down. Although the city fire fighter is recognized as suffering from inhaled contaminants, little is said about the wild land fire figher. It needs to be addressed–your occupation is an essential to the safety and protection of the environment, resources, homes and lives. You deserve more than you are getting–and I do see you as brothers in arms of a first order.
Truth is Gary that many did die from the exponential fire at Yarnell although it was after–one third of the population dead in 6 years? There were only 645 residents by census–2013 at the time of the fire–almost 200 now dead 6 years later after the two fires of Yarnell–2013, 2015. Give me an explanation–some can be attributed to as stress–divorces, deaths in family, loss of home, moving–these type stressors kill people. Some perhaps due to old age–but in the Yarnell incident cases of all ages are popping up. Certainly the older you are, the more compromised your health and the more subject to stressors and outside causes. But there are too many deaths post fire to account for just by chance.
Let me say I have had six heart attacks since the fire–two were definite killers except for excellent hospital and medical care to save me. Now this morning I have a call–three more cancers basal and squamous cell–tumors under the skin not apparent but nodules. In the past month I have had 6 large ones removed–two different visits to the surgeon and now I look worse than Scarface with lesions that are in an S shape on my face about 5 inches long. I have had cancers removed before the fire–Uranium mining I do blame since my siblings have none and even alive and older than me. Yet after the fire these cancers have gone rampant–never had they had to cut so much–and they move quickly on me. I believe it is the chemicals that we Yarnellites got inundated with by the huge slurry drops. We have no idea the secret ingredients that were included in the slurry, but we do know the chemicals-potassium ammonium phosphates and fine particles of clay of unknown constituents are health killers–especially the ammonium phosphate and the chemicals formed from reactions to burning embers. And those were more than burning embers–manzanita gives off the equivalent energy of a Heroshima A-Bomb every 15 minutes so that slurry once it is dropped in those mists is largely vaporized and the other is cooked into deadly chemicals–cyanide not the least of the reaction. Men working houses get plenty of the cyanide if they do not wear the masks–plastics are made using cyanide in the process and those deadly cyanide gases are highly toxic in home fires–well recognized there–but not mentioned in slurry drops of wild land fires.
O i am not looking for sympathy–I lived my life and am fortunate to still be able to participate. But I am one of those that have educated myself after the fact–I believed the Forest People until I started noticing the untimely deaths of so many after the Yarnell fire. So certainly–safety issues were skirted–ignorance I think the main cause and putting individuals in charge of so many when those individuals –educated idiots as they were–would stupidly kill their men–GMHS bur other crew members I at other locations suffered like problems.
So yes–the wild land fighter is the hero–he/she/others get the major doses of these chemicals inhaled–but they are unrecognized while their brothers in city fire fighting know and are recognized in getting the deadly chemical inhalants. So not only the civilian guinea pigs need to be addressed but also the wild land fire fighter effects. And if you believe your Forest Service representatives that this slurry is safe it is on you like it was on me for hiking so many times through it. But now you would not get me to Uranium mine nor would you get me to hike again through that chemical war zone. Education frees us from the Bull Shit.
I know how you feel, but since we have a division of labor here on this thread on life support, my job is to write about the 19 hotshots who died, it’s your job to write about the costs to the citizens of Yarnell and beyond because that’s out of both my lane and my wheelhouse, but I know it’s important.
Oh…and one more thing during my long goodbye. But make no mistake, I am saying goodbye unless something radically changes on this blog that by not returning to it to continue to participate, would be irresponsible on my part because that is just how important I view our work here in this format for wildland firefighter safety going forward.
I was watching a movie a few days ago that I had first seen about 20 years ago. This movie is about a military disaster that was so catastrophic, so profound and so damaging to our national psyche, that it literally changed our foreign policy overnight for at least a generation and caused us to abandon a region of the world which resulted in the endless loss of life due to civil war and the starvation of the local population.
In this horrific incident, I noted with new interest that exactly 19 Army Rangers died horrible deaths. And while any loss of life of our armed forces is tragic, that was a relatively small number of deaths considering it occurred in an active war zone to front line combatants.
That incident so scared our national collective memory, it will forever be remembered by only two words, “Blackhawk Down.”
I mention this because on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster, we lost exactly 19 Hotshots who died horrible deaths. But unlike the ‘Blackhawk Down” incident, which has been studied, analyzed and rerviewed endlessly so that every citizen of this country knows exactly why those 19 Army Rangers died, we are still clueless as to the truth why our 19 hotshots died.
Except instead of being a relatively small number of deaths under the circumstances, the deaths of 19 hotshots during a single incident was historically unprecedented. And as I keep reminding not only myself, but everyone else, this incident was so far off all of the known charts, graphs and spreadsheets that track hotshots deaths, it literally caused everyone to throw away their ‘Disaster Fire O’Meters” and construct new ones from the ground up. And the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster still pegged out the Red Lines on the new meters.
IT WAS NOT JUST ONE MORE INCIDENT WHERE SOMETIMES BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE!
So anyway…this still isn’t goodbye until I have satisfied myself I have summed up and memorialized my random thoughts on this matter over the last five years so you don’t have to wait for my tome to be published to be up to speed on my most important thoughts on this matter. So…I may be back to finish this post…if I think of some more points I want to make one last time before we say our final goodbyes.
1. Whoops, I missed a chance to post a link and that is so unlike me.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ygi2lDAdLo
2. Wow…another coincidence in addition to the same number of dead between the two incidents. If you watch the trailer (link above) you may notice that at the end of it, they are using the very same sound track that I selected for the crew.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QGEdc6HxhVA&start_radio=1&list=RDQGEdc6HxhVA
3. Joy,
And when I say you know where you lived when you started down this road, by that of course I mean running your own intel op while you gathered information, intelligence and Sources of Information. If you don’t know what to do with it, or you are afraid of what to do with it, don’t collect it in the first place and then don’t come on here bragging about having it while you play, “What have I got in my pockets” in the second place.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dprEW7Ec6bE
Because right now…you are a roadblock standing between me and accomplishing my objectives and I don’t like that any more than I like the other people who are withholding the truth from, “We…The People.”
4. HAL 9000,
I’m pretty sure Joy was referring to me and not you in her Troll Riddle. Which is you know…cool with me, because you wouldn’t believe some of the names I have been called during my career. Which always just meant I was doing my job to me. Actually…by now you probably wouldn’t be surprised by any of the names I have been called. 🙂
In other words, I can love the sinner, but not the sin. But this us far from over, and you have time to REPENT and do the right thing.
Joy,
Oh…and one more thing. In addition to your invaluable personal observations from the worst single day in wildland firefighting history, a day the previously believed to be unimaginable nightmare scenario became our reality that we now must accept may happen again,simply because it has happened once, you brought some clarity and understanding with your photographs and so I do want to thank you for that. And please remember. I still love you, I just don’t love what you are doing by withholding information that I need in order to establish to the best of my ability all of the circumstances and facts surrounding the catastrophic. shocking, traumatic, dumbfounding, and inexplicable deaths of one of our beloved hotshot crews.
Brainstorming during my Long Goodbye.
1. As I think I have a,ready made clear, this is my brainstorming session during my long goodbye during which I am trying to nail down those hot topics and favorite bones of mine to chew on during my official book writing sabbatical .
2. But it you have a particularly salienipoint you think I should add, please jump in here at ant time as Sonny has and add your favorite bone to chew on that you would like to see me cover in my book.
3. I am trying to keep this session to key bullet points without getting down into the weeds ti jeep it short and concise. But that being said, I was especially sloppy with my thumbnail account of the military disaster I am now comparing to the YHFD because the trauma that incident inflicted on our macro culture is the same as the YHFD inflicted on our micro culture. And si I do want to clean that up a little bit out if respect for those who were killed.
A. Not all of those who were killed were Army Rangers. The dead also included Army helicopter pilots and 1st Special Forces (Delta) team members, two of whom were posthumously awarded Congressional Medals of Honor. It was an incident that, ‘scarred” our national collective memory, not “scared” it. And finally, it was an incident that was so traumatic to our entire nation it will always be remembered by three words, not two because I spelled Black Hawk wrong. “Black Hawk Down”
Well…shit fire and save matches, that post wasn’t much better and might in fact have been worse in terms of bad spelling on my part and computer value added misspelling on Apples part. I need to go find my glasses.
And in the continuing “you just can’t make this shit up” category…
The person who wrote the SCREENPLAY for the ‘Blackhawk Down” movie also ended up one of the screenwriters for the ‘Granite Mountain’ movie.
Ken Nolan.
The official IMDB page for “Only The Brave” – 2017
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/
———————————————————————————–
“Only The Brave” – The Story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots
Directed by: Joseph Kosinski
Writing Credits (WGA)…
Sean Flynn – Based on his original GQ magazine article “No Exit”
Eric Warren Singer – American Hustle ( MOVIE / 2013 / Screenplay )
Ken Nolan – Black Hawk Down ( MOVIE / 2001 / Screenplay )
———————————————————————————
OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER
“His might be bigger, but mine is here.”
I have stated from the beginning…like five years ago, that my wildland firefighting experiences are very narrow on the fire line (limited to hotshot crew only) in addition to my 4 years of office time. Furthermore, my experience is very outdated occurring between 1974 and 1988 There are lots and lots and lots of people with a lot more experience that either current or recently separated wildland firefighters who I will defer to if they want to jump in and correct me on anything, or expand on a point I am trying to make. But the fact is, very few have done so, but I continue to be ready not to only welcome the help, but to ask for it, “Pease help me explain WF culture and fire fighting tactics and strategies, especially the nuance that are so critical to understand to really be able to, “ get it”.
**
** THE MATT OSS TIME-LAPSE VIDEO
**
** WHEN ( AND WHERE ) FIRE FIRST CRESTS THE RIDGELINE
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE ) post
on January 21, 2019 at 4:31 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> WTKTT subsequently also said::
>>
>> “Keep in mind, though, that Matt Oss’s Yarnell Fire video was a TIME-LAPSE.
>>
>> It didn’t happen AS quickly as the video shows.”
>>
>> Although Oss’es time-lapse youtube video is sped-up some, one can go to the
>> settings icon on the youtube task-bar and slow the speed down a good bit.
>> One can slow it even more and get a fairly reasonable example of ‘real time’
>> by then continuously clicking the play/stop button.
>>
>> This has lead me to another thought, likely specific to the abilities of WTKTT.
>>
>> In the slow-down mode mentioned above, the point where the fire first crests
>> the ridge-line is visible.
Yes, it is… and that ‘video frame’ became ‘Figure 19’ in the final SAIR document.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> If that exact point could be identified…
It has. See the new VIDEO below.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> …perhaps we would have the ability to determine if the fire came up to
>> the initial descent point behind them, BEFORE it roared into the
>> deployment bowl.
I think it’s safe to say it did NOT. The proof is in the new VIDEO below.
According to the Matt Oss video, no actual flames crested any ridgeline there in any place or timeframe that would have allowed GM to actually ‘see’ them from all the way down in the box canyon… right up until the time of their actual deployment.
According to the Oss video… the FIRST flames seen cresting the ridgeline, halfway back towards the place from where they departed on their final journey, didn’t ‘appear’ until 4:43 PM.
According to the SAIR… at 4:43 PM… the GM Hotshots were already dead.
Actually ( again, according to the SAIR ) they had already been dead for about a minute.
From PDF page 7 of the SAIR, in the ‘Executive Summary’ section…
——————————————————————————————————-
At 1630, thunderstorm outflows reached the southern perimeter of the fire. Winds increased substantially; the fire turned south and overran the Granite Mountain IHC at about 1642.
——————————————————————————————————–
SIDENOTE: Ever since that original ‘estimate’ in the SAIR… 4:42 PM has become the accepted ‘time of death’ for the GM Hotshots. That’s the time when people have ( and will probably always ) ‘rung bells’ and/or taken ‘moments of silence’ at the various anniversary events.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> If the fire did indeed make that run, it would certainly explain why
>> none of the firefighters chose to run, and had to make-do with what
>> they had left.
Based on the new VIDEO below… I believe it’s safe to say the fire did NOT ‘make that run’.
You also have to realize that the TIME when GM would have been ‘weighing their final options’ and DECIDING to deploy versus any other option is still unknown.
There is ( and always has been ) that ‘laundry list’ of ‘events/tasks’ that would have had to take place even BEFORE 4:39 PM, when we hear the first of that series of botched MAYDAY calls on the radio, complete with the saws running in the background providing the proof that, circa 4:39 PM, they were ALREADY preparing their ‘deployment site’.
At a minimum… that list of events/tasks includes…
1. The moment they actually DID realize they were in deep shit.
2. Deciding what to do.
3. Finally deciding to deploy versus any other option.
4. Finding a deployment site.
5. Getting everyone ‘assembled’ in that ‘found’ place.
6. Assigning all the tasks to improve the deployment site.
7. Pulling ropes on saws, extracting fuel canisters/fusees from packs, etc.
8. Only THEN getting on the radio ( at 4:39 PM ) to try and contact Air-To-Ground.
So however much TIME it might have taken to do all those things above, you have to SUBTRACT that time from any consideration of when any FLAMES might have been visible BEHIND them… which the SAIR said was part of their ‘decision making’ all the way back at steps ‘2’ and ‘3’ in the list above.
Even with a VERY quick estimate of only 2 minutes ( 120 seconds ) to accomplish ALL of the ‘tasks’ in the list above… that means the first moment when they ‘might’ have ( as the SAIR says they did ) seen flames BEHIND them, and have that become ANY part of their decision making, had to have been no later than circa 4:37 PM.
Even with that VERY quick time estimate… that’s still a full 6 minutes before any such possible thing is seen happening in the Matt Oss video.
As the new video shows… at 4:37 PM… not only are we still 6 minutes away from ANY flames even appearing ANYWHERE up on that ridgeline… there aren’t even any ‘orange glows’ reflecting off ANY of the smoke clouds that would give any indication there was ANY fire already in that saddle area up ‘behind’ them, at 4:37 PM.
If you believe it took them even longer than 2 minutes to accomplish all those ‘tasks’ listed above… then that just pushes us further and further back in time to their ‘moment of decision’… and makes it increasingly LESS likely they actually ever SAW any fire ‘up behind them’, as the SAIR asserts.
** THE NEW VIDEO
NOTE: This one has a lot of ‘through the looking glass’ fades AND ‘flyarounds’, including a drop down to ground level at the deployment site itself and then a look ‘back up’ at the saddle to give an idea what they could have even possibly had a chance at seeing ‘back up there’.
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – SAIR Figure 19
YouTube Video Description: A workup of ‘Figure 19’ from the original SAIR document.
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/Jl1l8EyDric
**
** THE SHRINE ROAD YOUTH CAMP / HARPER CANYON ‘SAW LINE’ PROJECT
NOTE: I thought I had responded to this two-part question from Norb regarding the Shrine Road Youth Camp / Harper Canyon ‘saw line’ project down below, but it turns out it never showed up.
So I am posting it again up here, hoping it appears this time.
** Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 11, 2019 at 12:50 pm
>> Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Nice work on the video! I have been on site three times and
>> this still helps me get oriented.
>>
>> Couple of questions for you –
>>
>> do you know where Darby Star and crew were putting in saw line?
Well… we know ‘for sure’ where they were ‘supposed’ to.
Where they were ACTUALLY cutting/swamping is still not known with absolute certainty.
That ‘saw line’ was ‘supposed’ to be directly over from where the dozer stopped pushing ground in the west end of the Shrine Road Youth Camp area, north, over to the closest possible ‘tie in’ with that ‘Rock Pile’ ridge ( as both SPGS1 Gary Cordes and TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel called it ) which made up the north side of that area.
During his ADOSH interview, SPGS1 Gary Cordes was asked about this whole ‘Sesame area to Shrine Youth Camp area’ dozer-line project… and here is what he said.
From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
——————————————————————————————————–
1089 just north of the, the ranch on Sesame Street, there’s a, there’s a road that goes
1090 um, northeast and towards shrine, so we improved that road to now become
1091 the primary um, line and, and then planned on burning that out that evening
1092 once we got it all tied into the rock pile, which is the, that, what, what I refer
1093 to as ah shit ridge, um, we were tying it in to that rock pile. It’s a pretty heavy
1094 rock ridge in there.
1098 Q2: Okay. Did you – how much progress did you make on, on that, or did you?
1108 A: …that was an only masticated area in there, I guess it was cleaned up about
1109 three years ago so we had, we did good on that, uh, we tied it into um, into
1110 Shrine, back in there, uh, cut it across between, I’m guessing it’s between
1111 those, what looks like those two roads in there and we actually were able to
1112 um, it was a couple hundred feet that they had to go in and, and I had three
1113 engines doing saw work in there to tie it into the rock pile up in there. And
1114 that was actively just about done when this fire had uh, blown up and changed
1115 direction on us. And then Blue Ridge had picked up, my guys were tying into
1116 the, into the rock pile, um, and Blue Ridge was improving that dozer line back
1117 on that, on that road going back to Sesame Street from Shrine.
——————————————————————————————————–
There is more proof regarding the ( intended ) location of the ‘saw line’.
During Cordes’ ADOSH interview… they all had a ‘map’ in front of them, and at some point Cordes drew an ‘arrow’ on the map showing exactly where the ‘saw line’ was supposed to ‘tie’ the end of the dozer push into the Youth Camp area straight over into the ‘Rock Pile’ on the north side of the area.
Gary Cordes’ MAP ( that he drew on during his ADOSH interview ) is here…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAAS6KScxLx9RPUBzGLR9wFwa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Central%20Yavapai%20Fire%20District/Transcripts?dl=0&preview=Gary+Cordes+map.pdf&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
The ‘arrow’ indicating where the ‘saw line’ was supposed to be is hand-drawn in black ink there across the Shrine Youth Camp area, with the ‘point’ of the arrow indicating that spot where the Sesame-to-Shrine dozer-line intersected with Shrine Road itself.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> We know what time resources were pulled out of that area, but
>> is there any record of when they arrived in the area? I really
>> don’t recall seeing anything, but hopefully you have something.
** THE SHORT ANSWER
2:45 PM
SPGS1 Gary Cordes first informed his TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel that he wanted that ‘saw line’ cut over in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area.
2:45 to 3:00 PM
TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel ‘assigns’ some of his Task Force 2 resources to head to the Shrine Road Youth Camp for this ‘saw line’ project.
3:00 PM
TLFD(t) Esquibel briefs those resources about the project over at the Youth Camp.
3:15 PM
The ‘saw line’ work begins over in the Youth Camp / Harper Canyon area.
** THE LONG ANSWER
There is a fair amount of evidence in the public record which establishes that Gary Cordes didn’t even come up with this ‘Sesame to Shrine Youth Camp area’ dozer-line project until about 2:01 PM that day.
That’s when he met face-to-face with Brian Frisby and told him he wanted him to get HEQB Cory Ball and the dozer to start pushing that dozer-line from the Sesame area over to the Youth Camp.
But it wasn’t until about 45 minutes later ( at 2:45 PM ) that Cordes then first informed his TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel that he was also going to need a ‘saw line’ put in over at the Youth camp to ‘tie’ that end of the dozer-line into the ‘Rock Pile’ on the north side of the Youth Camp.
From TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s official ‘Unit Log’…
——————————————————————————————————–
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met w/ St Group 2, plan to use TF2 resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mtn.W of Shrine Rd in Harper Canyon, Blue Ridge IHC + Granite Mtn. IHC to improve dozer line.proposed burnout possible in night or evening.MCSO starts evac of Yarnell
———————————————————————————————————
During the next 15 minutes is when Esquibel ‘assigned’ some of his ‘Task Force 2’ resources to this new ‘saw line’ project, and told them to head over to the Shrine Road Youth Camp area for a ‘briefing’.
Esquibel’s next Unit Log entry ( at 3:00 PM ) says that is when the ‘plan briefing’ with these newly assigned crews actually took place, presumably there at the Shrine Road Youth Camp where the ‘project’ was supposed to take place…
—————————————————————————————————–
1500 ( 3:00 PM )
Brief resources on plan
—————————————————————————————————–
15 minutes after that is when Esquibel says he then first set the ‘trigger points’ for those crews now ( actively ) working on that ‘saw line’ project…
—————————————————————————————————–
1515 ( 3:15 PM )
Set trigger pt in Harper Canyon for crews to pull out, saddle W of work area about 1/2 mile.
—————————————————————————————————–
These ‘times’ all match what Esquibel told the ADOSH investigators.
From Tyson Esquibel’s ADOSH interview…
He is being asked directly ( by ADOSH investigator Bruce Hannah ) if he remembers WHEN his resources started working on that actual ‘saw line’ operation in the Youth Camp area…
Q = Bruce Hannah, ADOSH investigator
A = TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel
——————————————————————————————————–
1221 Q: Do you know what time you guys started doing that particular operation?
1222
1223 A: Um, probably about 3 to 3:30.
1502 Q: Uh, brief resources on plan 1500. Okay, set trigger point, Harper Canyon. Is
1503 that…
1504
1505 A: So that’s when we walked into this area.
1506
1507 Q: That’s this ridge right in there?
1508
1509 A: Yeah, this is the canyon we were in.
1510
1511 Q: It’s called Harper Canyon?
1512
1513 A: Yeah, I believe so.
——————————————————————————————————–
So it appears that the ‘saw line’ project really didn’t even get cranked up and fully ‘underway’ until as late as 3:15 to 3:30 PM that day.
That ‘saw line’ project was NEVER FINISHED that day.
It would only be less than an hour later that everyone who had been working on it would be hauling ass OUT of the area, running for their lives, and barely escaping entrapment.
ADOSH issued a specific willful/serious ‘near entrapment’ fine for this ‘project’,, in addition to the other 3 ‘near/actual’ entrapments that almost ( or actually did ) take place that day.
Alright, due to the generosity of Norbert & TTWARE in response to my “tired of chasing the dangling carrot” post, with replies of “Yep” and “I concur” respectively, I’ll throw in a few more thoughts and observations.
In my mind the major point of hashing out the unpublished real, complete, and truthful facts and circumstances surrounding the events of June 30, 2013 at the Yarnell Hill fire in this forum, is to shine the light on the truth no matter how uncomfortable it may be – in order to more fully advocate for positive change in wildland firefighting and actual learning in that subculture. That’s why I spend the time I do here. My motivations are to solve a mystery purposefully hidden from public view. And you know what, THAT PISSES ME OFF! It endangers the public (who pay our salaries,) it endangers my fellow firefighters and those who rely on them, and it endangers me and my ability to do the job the public has entrusted me to do.
We all bring to the table our perspectives, experiences, and information we’ve been able to pull out of the limited and censored information available to us in order to solve the puzzle, piece by piece. The final objective, of course, being a full accounting of events: actions and inaction, that led to the unthinkable.
My frustration of playing the multi-year game of “am I getting warmer or colder”, has reached a culmination point of seriously questioning why I spend time and energy here, and by extension asking myself if it’s time to walk away. And yes, it’s a GAME. This absolutely plays squarely into the hands of those in power who endeavor to bury the truth forever. They win. We lose…again.
Thus my personal conundrum. Walk away? Stay and keep hoping? Why Should I? Why haven’t firefighters come out of the woodwork screaming about the injustice here? Have we become that cell phone addicted and full of self-worship where we just don’t care….as long as it doesn’t effect me or my guys? And please…I’m NOT looking for anyone to try to convince me to stay. I don’t do cliques and I have one reason I’m here only. It’s my decision based on time spent vs. results gained.
To summarize my rambling and to thank Norbert and TTWARE for their respective thumbs up, I’ll end with this.: am I the only one that’s grown wearing of waiting for the secrets of Yarnell to become available by those who keep me chasing the carrot? Isn’t it logical that anyone who is failing to divulge pertinent information about Yarnell in any way is part of the problem in their own way? What’s the difference? I personally see none. None.
Amen Brother!
It is too bad you all are facing you are chasing some carrot because you are all grown ups who can easily go take the data I shared on here and off here and pull your own records.
I chose NOT congressional as Sonny is misinterpreting and sharing here but Washington DC as my platform
not a book or movie or blogs to tell the additional information
I also ran my data through legal advice not on the emotions of people on blogs.
Name one of you on here or in the world who spent the time on the ground with the locals — the loved ones — and from the grunts to the very elite people in your industry—- name one… I am it.
Sonny made errors but with his health I just let it run
I am way to busy to sit down and assess and dissect the uproars and emotions.
The funny part is it is easy to sit back East and make judgement
I will not judge any of you or correct or engage
I will not even share who you are even though I do know who you are
I will continue to share as I am
I am firm there.
Isn’t it odd that a person I clashed with for years on IM is the only person who is making solid in person time to go over the data and further my education with allowing me to attend the conferences and such.
and have any of you sat through thousands of files and 911 calls or YCSO recordings…he has but he is labelled some silly pet something to me…dumb.
God will return to him all the kindness he has done. He had to learn his own lessons while we went through those times. It is all a growing moment.
As for Sonny, I will not write a single correction because both Sonny and I live our lives in a live and let live way – the time on Earth is short.
Yes, I do know more
No, I will not share it ever on IM
I am firm there.
Many of you caught the hints and know where to go and get the data.
The brotherhood this week is your deal
It will not enhance or change me to feel oh my even Norb and Woodsman
Shit, if I see them this year – great – but if this is some kind of moat to cause division- that is on you
You are an extension and family-like in my eyes and I have no problem of the venting out this week or ever
I am at the stance we all have our times of frustrations and pains but no way am I to think I am the sole person when too many know stuff but it was funny that the world is unaware how close Woodsman worked with the YHF folks and has he tried to gain data to the best of his ability and capabilities…has he went to the depth of digging as I have…so to me you all are in some current rant and raves but it is on you and it does not affect me one bit but if you stayed out here weeks on weeks or months on months and now I can say a full year like RTS did than he chose to use the data in other ways to reach who he wants to reach and again that is on him.
I am about to bury another family member who is at the end in hospice and more locals dying or about to (hard to see kids dying)…so really all this emotions even from the AI area is just that – still IM is a place to freely express and have at it….I take the higher path and assure all that know I know who you are writing these rants I am not gonna expose you because my emotions are balanced nowadays and my only focus is getting credentialed up to keep showing and sharing…
Get over it me not sharing here
or start asking for the index of all entities to see who asked for what
but wtktt KNOWS as I showed you – some of mine are oddly sealed for the world to see – hmmm?
the right folks who can ensure change have the data
That I can state is a definite.
I am unmasked —
I do not concern myself if you are or not but I am.
I am JOY A COLLURA here and all over
Reply to joy a collura post on February 2, 2019 at 3:04 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> Get over it me not sharing here
I believe it’s the ‘partial sharing’ that is just pissing people off.
The ‘teasing’… if you will.
Example: Just a few days ago, on the thread that was discussing the reported ‘final radio conversations’ between Marsh and Steed..
The report there has always been that SOME people HEARD the two of them say something to each other along the lines of…
Steed: “We’re not going to make it” and/or “You’ve really f****ed us this time”.
Marsh:: “I know. I’m sorry”.
And then you jumped in to CONFIRM that you have heard this exact thing from no less than 13 different people. You were emphatic about it…
>> On January 22, 2019 at 10:11 pm, Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> YES. I, Joy A Collura, am saying that, since August
>> of 2013, I have heard from 13 ( THIRTEEN ) different
>> ‘men in the FIRE and MEDICAL industry’ who ALL
>> heard the same ‘final radio conversation(s)’ between
>> Marsh and Steed, on June 30, 2013.
That’s a big deal.
Not just one person. Not just two… but more people than either the New England Patriots or the Los Angeles Rams will be allowed to have on the field tomorrow at any given moment.
But then you won’t say anything more about it… such as what the circumstances might have even been that so many people heard the same thing.
Were they all standing near Darrell Willis truck and hearing everything that was said coming over the GM Crew Net blasting from Willis’ radio?
Is that when this possible ‘mysterious video’ might have been recorded which supposedly CONTAINS a lot of that GM Crew Net radio traffic?
Inquiring minds still want to know.
But you ‘draw the line’ on what you will share.
We DO “get it”… but ( at the same time ) that is the kind of thing that is bound to just “piss people off”.
I’m sure you can understand that.
It remains VERY important to have things like this fully vetted and published, in order to get closer to having the ‘full story’ about what happened that day.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> or start asking for the index of all entities to see who asked
>> for what but wtktt KNOWS as I showed you – some of mine
>> are oddly sealed for the world to see – hmmm?
As usual… ( and please don’t be offended by this ) I am having a hard time ‘parsing’ your sentences/paragraphs, and I’m not really sure what that means.
If you are suggesting I ‘know things’ that would be very important to this ongoing investigation that I am not sharing… that is not true.
I ( me, personally ) am not ‘sitting on’ any ‘secrets’.
That’s not how I roll.. nor do I think that’s how we get the cows in the barn on this.
wtktt said:
As usual… ( and please don’t be offended by this ) I am having a hard time ‘parsing’ your sentences/paragraphs, and I’m not really sure what that means.
Joy’s Definition:
I have shown you behind the scenes that certain entities have sealed my public records request. I was not referring to you.
As for tease…I was not teasing with intent just stating facts…people have come across my path or Sonny and my path and that has happened to people here too not just me.
November 18, 2014 at 8:21am wtktt stated C’mon people…FOCUS. Please read what Mr. Dougherty wrote at top…please remain from personal attacks. The trolls will come…and the trolls will go.
I have not been a troll by definition below. Just because I state I heard something or where to go get your own data does not make me a tease or up for this kind of rubbish. Please stop emailing me that people are writing about me. I am pausing from this silliness on IM. Why don’t you stop wasting time on this and come help…I have said it for years…not as easy as one thinks…
Trolling
Trolling – (verb), as it relates to internet, is the deliberate act, (by a Troll – noun or adjective), of making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument
Trolling on-line forums as described above is actually analogous to the fishing technique of “trolling”, where colorful baits and lures are pulled behind a slow moving boat, often with multiple fishing lines, covering a large bodies of water, such as a large lake or the ocean. The trolling lures attract unsuspecting fish, intriguing them with the way they move through the water, thus enticing these foolish fish to “take the bait”. Not unlike unsuspecting internet victims, once hooked, the fish are reeled in for the catch before they realize they have been duped by the Troll/Fisherman
clarify-
wtktt is not the one emailing about stuff here
another person
but I am okay with not coming here so that should make you all happy.
Stress relief granted.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on February 2, 2019 at 6:32 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I have shown you behind the scenes that certain
>> entities have sealed my public records request.
>> I was not referring to you.
Yes… you sent me some screen shots where you seemed to be having trouble ‘logging in’ to the FOIA tracking system… and some of your request were not ‘showing up’… but the sidebar in the same screen shot seemed to indicate that was just a ‘Login’ problem that had resolved.
I don’t know what you mean by a ‘sealed FOIA request’.
There really is no such thing.
Either an FOIA request is DENIED, up front, or it is ‘in process’.
The ‘results’ of an FOIA request cannot be ‘sealed’.
That’s exactly the opposite of the intent of the FOIA law itself.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>> I have not been a troll by definition below.
And I don’t believe anyone has accused you of that.
You take up a lot of bandwidth without really ‘getting to the point’ sometimes… but that alone doesn’t make you a ‘troll’.
Classic ‘trolls’ usually have actual mal-intent… and are either just trying to monopolize an online conversation… or just generally ’cause trouble’.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Just because I state I heard something or where to go
>> get your own data does not make me a tease or up for
>> this kind of rubbish.
Well… under certain circumstances… and especially in THIS kind of PUBLIC forum where the search for REAL ( verifiable ) information is very important to ALL participants… that kind of thing CAN amount to ‘teasing’.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Please stop emailing me that people are writing about me.
I believe you have me confused with someone else.
I have never done any such thing.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> I am pausing from this silliness on IM.
>> Why don’t you stop wasting time on this and come help…
>> I have said it for years…not as easy as one thinks…
No, it’s not… especially with the kind of total SHOTGUN BLAST FOIA requests I believe you have been making.
You actually DO get back a TON OF SHIT.
Most of it is going to be just ‘noise’ and not even relevant.
But there is nothing EASY about going through that kind of stuff.
I HAVE been ‘helping’ you all along… just about any time you asked.
And I will continue to do so.
But I have no intentions of ever setting foot in Arizona. Sorry.
You DO still have the option of finding a place to post everything online and then just let ALL of us ‘help you with it’.
Not to enter the controversy about what Joy does or does not do–those prerogatives are hers and I will respect that. It has been five years and rightfully we are continuing the search for answers–although the largest part of SAIR errors have been shown–a few remain. Perhaps what Joy has is critical to exposing the cover up. I am one who is willing to await until what she has is revealed to the people she believes they are best first informed. I can only applaud her for the years of tireless and selfless effort she has put into research and I certainly will not question her purpose for withholding information until that time. A few months is nothing compared to the time already spent here on investigative media and the amount of data and information she has already freely offered. How many would make over 900 hikes to the area so people of all walks of life could see the situation–at the same time she was gathering interview information and sharing with those people about the incident? How many would spend countless hours and years battling to get FOIA’s so she could see what was going on? Patience is a virtue in this matter and none should be offended by a small time factor to get the information she has. Some will be squirming and that is a good thing–but their squirming may be for another reason because there may be some unwanted exposure. So let Joy see the people that can make a difference and present her case–I can wait, I have patience, and I know she has good reason.
I do apologize for making extraneous remarks–some highly unrelated to the wild land fire industry. I am prone to do that and it is; not to waste your valuable time–and I know how valuable that is from the recent shot gun blast. I do think that the shot not only spread about my chest but also went up to my cranial area affecting my mental faculties –so if I seem a bit slow to you and extraneous–when you see Charlie or Sonny or Tex, just skip the post and get to your professional area and friends–the Goddess of the Irish will forgive you, perhaps even applaud you.
Many awards were handed out after the Yarnell killing–many deserved and some not. The fire fighting profession carries many dangers and anyone out there producing line with an animal alike the Yarnell wild fire in the area and ready to devour anything in its path deserves the highest honor. That person is hoping to save lives, resources, property, wildlife and environment. So my hat is off to all doing that job and even that Marsh and Steed did the unthinkable of needlessly killing their crew–they will stand before their Maker and he will be the final judge–if it is Jesus then they are in good hands–they escaped the mortal gods and ascended to the immortal God–and Jesus wipes out the sins–gives a new start–all a good thing for all of us.
But what we do not often address is the fact that almost 200 are now dead after the Yarnell fire right there after all the Retardant Dumps in both the 2013 debacle and again during the Tenderfoot fire of 2015. The majority of the deceased are elderly, although there are several cases of middle age and now Joy tells me there is even an eight year old that is suffering lung problems that may lead to death. I do not know if there will be a memorial for being a guinea pig to the retardant dumps but we certainly deserve one if we were a resident of Yarnell during hose slurry drops. I certainly was and experienced my first heart attack a few short months after those fires–Joy can tell you the exact date since she pulled my life support apparatus.
The sad thing is that the loss of Yarnellites constitutes almost a third of the population in these few short years–five since the Yarnell fire and three since the Tenderfoot fire. I had contacted the EPA about this and at least did get a response letter–good fire starter material since excuses of why they were not interested are of no help. Yet the facts are there and had the Javalina population been reduced in that proportion you can bet they would have been on the site ASAP.
There is a good fictitious report on line put out by the Forest Service. They determine with all the gobble de gook that the retardant is unlikely to be harmful to humans. They do recommend not to eat out of a garden that got the orange goop on it–nor any wild plants or berries if they did get a dose of it.
There are many formulas for Phos Chek Just about all of it contains trade secret chemicals but the major offender is right on top and not secret. They say it is in the proportion of 85% but that can vary to 95%. It is Ammonium Phosphate, Di-ammonium Phosphate, Mon-ammonium Phosphate and smaller amounts of Attapulgus Clay, Guar Gum with the remaining content of secret chemicals.
Is this slurry really safe for humans? If the Yarnell Elderly that are deceased could speak,they would say no–Your slurry drops have caused our early deaths. We know that this stuff immediately kills fish–but with humans and animals it takes effect more slowly. The ammonium gas created after a drop is a lung killer–but even worse in the HCN contamination. HCN is a deadly gas –Hydrogen Cyanide and was used to kill those in penitentiaries on death row. A very small amount of this gas–even 6 ppm is harmful to health.
So now I am going to educate you on how to make your own rat poison. Do not kill yourself doing this–the HCN gas given off is deadly. Just get yourself a gallon or so of that slurry and allow it to dry. Sprinkle the crumbles over some burning embers on a camp fire. Make sure you have a breeze so you are outside and no way you will breathe the smoke–best to have a gas mask when doing this. The resulting gas is actually Zyclon B –that was Hitler’s gas used to kill in WW2–so very dangerous even in small amounts. Now the residue you have on the embers will contain the Cyanide you need to kill your rats if you have not killed yourself doing this. The old miners have this method down pat–so if your look in some old mining books say early 1900’s you will get how they did it and how some stayed alive doing it and maybe how some did not. Now–do you think the Forest Service is understanding of the danger of their slurry drops. I am more inclined to believe that like the cigarette companies and since there are billions involves and profits passed around and doctors easily found for perks and cash to support the claims of safe good slurry, that indeed proven chemical reactions prove otherwise.
There is acute poisoning by cyanide and it takes only 1/60th teaspoon of cyanide to kill a 160 pound individual. You die in 15-45 minutes with convulsions, respiratory failure, and cardiac arrest. But there is chronic poisoning as we had seen in Yarnell. You see doses of HCN and Cyanide in solid form–NaCN, KCN, and CNCl tax the cells in the heart and brain because the smaller doses retain oxygen in the blood stream keeping sufficient oxygen from the heart and brain cells. So you will see symptoms like dizziness, headache, nausea, vomiting, rapid breathing, rapid or slowed heart beat, restlessness, weakness and even change in taste.
When as little as .4 gram is death to a 160 pound person, then imagine how little it would take to cause disastrous effects to health. The Retardant Companies and their Billion Dollar golden egg will be hard to challenge–too many politicians easily bought and you can be certain the key players to allow this environmental pollution are owned by these companies.
Maybe the only safe thing in the concoction is the guar gum since it comes from guar beans and is used to thicken the solution. The clay is named after a city in Georgia–we do not know the sources of the clay. Much clay contains asbestos and titymites and other silicates. Those working around clay have to worry about the silicosis disease. The asbestos of course can result in mesothelioma–and if you have that and can connect to a source–you will able to fund your last miserable years living in that disease.
Cyanide actually dissolves gold–one of the few things that will–the other being aqua regia. Tailings dumps full of the cyanide have leached into aquifers–and John Daugherty is to be appreciated for his humanity in protesting the mining operations. It is about money–why those such as JD have such a hard time protesting. He was lucky not to be shot in the Chilean effort. The Mexican saying is that life is no more than a hand full of dirt. And in those Latin countries your life is valued very cheaply–Three hundred was the going rate for one Peuko–and he had been known as a hired killer with nine notches on his pistol until he took some 30 bullets from a couple of relatives of one he should have missed.
But as Peuko killed secretly so what are these secret ingredients in the Slurry Drops? You mean in good old America we can dump a chemical on people and the environment without public advisement as to what they are? Isn’t the political system grand? Well I do think we need a memorial at least for those killed post Slurry Drops on Yarnell–Guinea Pigs of Yarnell–put my name at the top if you like.
I concur again Woodsman.
Around the five year mark, I posted that due to the fact that no new information had been shared for eons on this site, it’s usefulness was done, forked, if you will.
Here we are months after that, and the only thing that’s been revealed since that time, is that people are gathering more information which they will not share. We’ve spent LOTS of time sorting through all sorts of posts by various people containing information about everything EXCEPT the subject at hand. Those posts may be entertaining to some, depending upon the reader (and I must admit, I do enjoy some of Gary’s stuff), but if we’re not going to crack this case, I’ve got better things to do.
In WTKTT’s recent post, he laid out the specifics regarding FOIA’s and their shareablity, so that is really not an excuse anymore.
Joy said above: “Name one of you on here or in the world who spent the time on the ground with the locals — the loved ones — and from the grunts to the very elite people in your industry—- name one… I am it.”
ACTUALLY, some of the worst offenders in the lies and cover-up fit everything you just described, except the “on here” part.
Joy also said:
“the right folks who can ensure change have the data
That I can state is a definite”.
To that I sadly have to report that the “fight folks who can ensure change” are the one’s instigating the cover-up in the first place. Any other “right folks” out there, are giving you a false sense of positivity.
Bottom line: There is a lot of information that can be revealed by several of the people that are withholding it without compromising names or jobs.
Joy kind of seals the deal for me in her missive above, when she says:
“Yes, I do know more”
“No, I will not share it ever on IM”
“I am firm there.”
For me EVER means EVER, and we know RTS has the same mindset, so I’m out. If anything REALLY breaks regarding the YHF, I’ll be able to catch it on the evening news, or in the next tell-all book that may, or may not, tell-anything.
In WTKTT’s recent post, he laid out the specifics regarding FOIA’s and their shareablity, so that is really not an excuse anymore.
—again NONE of YOU live here
I was out walking and I am just thinking you all are a bunch of keyboard commandos just willing to talk trash at your computers but you have not come and helped me – I am one person with too much data…some visit me for hikes but not sit down go through all the recordings and all the other data which is really boring…really…
You all have not shared what you know and I could expose some of that but I don’t-
and then go get the help because I do not know how to help ya
IM is not the place to share all data – the is no rules that I have to put my data on IM.
Did the movie people or the book people?
I am good with how I am doing it.
I am happy with my choices as you are happy to publicly and privately diss me.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on February 2, 2019 at 6:09 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> there is no rules that I have to put my data on IM.
Of course not.
If you went to the trouble ( and expense ) to obtain it… then it is, in fact, YOURS to do with as you please.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> I am good with how I am doing it.
Then that is all that really matters.
But remember that THIS is a PUBLIC forum.
If you post messages that keep ‘hinting’ at things you seem to know… then other people are going to keep asking you to share more information and/or simply clarify what you are ‘claiming’.
That’s just how that works.
Sonny,
I think you were asking me what my issues are with Joy and why I am being so harsh with her and RTS down below. So anyway…I have thought about it and I have decided you are entitled to a more complete and measured explanation than the one I gave you downstream. And it’s not just that I can never win an argument with Joy…because I am used to that with women I know and have known throughout my life.
And although there really aren’t any rules that have been imposed by JD on our little community of seekers for the truth and bloggers, much less standards that I can or should try to impose, I have always thought of us as kind of like “The Three Musketeers”; except there are more of us and we are bloggers and not you know…musketeers. You know…all for one, and one for all. or however that goes?
And by that I mean that all of us leave it all on the field every time we suit up…or something like that? And in this blogging community and crowd sourced investigation, if there are participants who take…but don’t give back, it will be like working with IRS CID, and nobody likes to do that because they take information, but they never give anything back except they have a good excuse, federal law prohibits them from sharing, but it is still aggravating.
And in the case of this blog, there is actually a danger the system will break down into selfish camps or individuals who are out for themselves instead of the truth and the greater good and everyone will take their marbles and go home and do what both Joy and RTS do.
And who knows, if they those same sources weren’t sharing with Joy and RTS, maybe they would share with me instead? Because there is one thing I know about people. they hate to keep information inside of themselves, especially when they have done something wrong (assuming they aren’t anti social sociopaths) or know of others who have. Normal people want to confess what they know because that information inside themselves eats at their insides of most people who were raised with any kind of sense of right and wrong.
In both RTS’ and now in Joy’s cases, they are like Hoover Vacuum Cleaners sucking up all the information and intelligence they can here, while running games on the side to gather additional information by using their participation here in part and the notoriety and attention this controversial blog brings to everyone who participates here.
And I think that is wrong and I have said so for the very beginning. In fact…I made it very clear to everyone that I would not use my FIRE connections to gather information and intelligence on the side without sharing everything here on this blog with everyone else, because it’s not a victimless crime. And in this particular case, the victim is our exposing the truth in the sunshine (which is the best disinfectant) for everyone to see, analyze, evaluate and use for themselves as they see fit.
And by making my principles known and living by them, I believe I have deprived myself of far more information than Joy could have ever gathered in a hundred years because I am an ex hotshot crew boss and she isn’t. And even ex hotshot crew bosses have substantial standing within the WF community as a whole and the world of hotshots in particular.
But, “I don’t think so, homey don’t play dat” like RTS does and so I said, “Please tell me what I want to know, but be advised I won’t keep it a secret, but I will protect your identity and guarantee you anonymity.” And as a result of my policy, I believe nobody has told me squat.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6EsNyIRG-g
If what I was interested in was furthering my own agenda and collecting information to hoard for my book, I think I could be way ahead in the game that Joy and RTS both play. But I think it is wrong and I have standards that neither Joy nor RTS does.
Take HAL 9000 for example, where would this crowd sourced investigation be without his efforts? Nowhere…that’s where. This blog would have died of natural causes years ago. But he doesn’t hold back information and intelligence, he leaves it all on the table for everyone to see, evaluate, analyze and use, including Joy and RTS.
And HAL 9000 has generated more data than everyone else put together times X. And he has done so without making a career out of making all of the noises Joy makes about things to come and “all things in good time” and on and on and on blah, blah, blah, with all of her aggravating riddles and irritating teases. Joy is driving me crazy with her nonsense and games.
And since these are my Golden Years, I try to avoid anything or anyone that irritates me or causes negativity or stress to enter my life. And much like Chief Dan George, in what is arguably the best scene from any Western movie ever made, I Endeavor to Persevere to avoid the aforementioned pitfalls in my everyday life.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6EsNyIRG-g
And so rather than let Joy drive me crazy right now, I am going to follow the sound advice that Jeebs gave to K in MIB and “…go get a massage, take a cruise…”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1FkVXCCfg2A
In addition, I am going to go on a sabbatical from my blogging and focus on writing my tome, but…”I’LL BE BACK!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I-9dthiJw-Q
Whoops…duplicate link,
And since these are my Golden Years, I try to avoid anything or anyone that irritates me or causes negativity or stress to enter my life. And much like Chief Dan George, in what is arguably the best scene from any Western movie ever made, I “Endeavor to Persevere” and avoid the aforementioned pitfalls in my everyday life.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=atzmdijMfRY&t=5s
Oh…and two more things.
I also have a problem with Joy’s website because as I have repeatedly written, I consider this blog to be the Court Of Record for the storage of data for historical purposes pertaining to the YHFD. And although nothing in this world is certain except things will change, and this blog could die anytime JD pulls the plug on it, or it may die with him, I think all of the information we have generated as a crowd sourced investigation belongs in one place for posterity, historians, and future students of FIRE and not distributed between multiple websites or other sources. That is why I never supported or got involved in Base Camp, even though I admired the committment and enthusiasm behind that huge and complex effort that made my head hurt just thinking about.
If Joy has information, as she continues to insist she does even though she has never shown any proof of it that I am aware of, it belongs here and not on competing website that she manages.
And there is another very important reason for a, “one website policy.” To the best of my knowledge, JD has never done, written or said anything that influences the content one way or the other on this blog. And although I guess JD is still an omnipresence here with us, he is much like the wind (since I don’t want to compare him to you know…”The Big Guy Upstairs) since we can feel his presence but we can’t see it.
Nahhhh…that’s not a good anology, because the wind affects what it touches, whereas JD doesn’t ever touch anything much less try to influence or push it in one direction or the other. That independence is critical to maintaining our integrity as a true crowd sourced investigation, which I think is exciting to be part of because this is next level, virtual social experiment, Aldous Leonard Huxley Brave New World…stuff.
I can’t say the same thing for Joy’s website because she pushes her ideas, interrpretations, theories, and philosophies on what happened on the YHFD. Joy isn’t neutral like JD is and neither is her website.
And even though it has been some time since there was bitter infighting over RTS pushing his own ideas while insisting he was on the right track because he was in the possession of double pinky stinky finger swear super secret information that we would just have to trust him about because he was the only one who had the secret decoder ring and could be trusted to see or even know of the original data or sources.
That wasn’t helpful and HAL 9000 was always the one leading that charge to push for everything to be as transparent as possible and he thought that what wasn’t transparent should be the exception and not the rule. And guess what…if HAL 9000 unplugs from this matrix and returns to either his mother ship or home planet…you will be able to stick a fork in us because we will be done.
And HAL 9000 clearly and very strongly believes that everyone should not withhold information. It was just a few days ago that he rebuked Joy ever so gently, just as TTWARE did.. TTWRE wasn’t quite as gentle, but he wasn’t nearly as harsh as I was. These are examples of an independent crowd sourced investigation policing itself and setting its own standards that everyone should aspire to comply with, just as a hotshot crew does…or did back in my day.
At least that was the way our crew was. The crew boss and squad bosses were restricted by what they could say and do and they had the “small” end of our barracks and didn’t sleep in the crew area. The crew wasn’t restricted and we ran a tight ship within our own guidelines for the benefit of everyone.
And anyone who continually violated those internal conditions of employment and norms, found their bunk and footlocker thrown outside on the ground instead of being in their spot in the crew bunkhouse. That was a clear sign to them (because they had ignored all other less harsh signs, signals and counseling) that their time on our crew was done and they needed to move on with their lives because their presence on our crew threatened our ability to function at our optimum performance level and fight as much fire as possible. And of course make as much money as possible in the process because nobody was there to make friends or add to their Christmas card list. Because in general…it wasn’t an enjoyable experience, it was rewarding at times, but enjoyable at any time…no.
In other words Sonny, I think collecting information and intelligence for the sake if simply collecting it is wrong! No Case Agent ever promises a Source Of Information (SOI) that they will simply collect the information or intelligence they have and then file it away in a black hole until such a time as the SOI feels like coming forward and presenting their material in a public setting themselves. That dog don’t hunt!
That is just one reason Joy shouldn’t be running around playing Secret Sqirrel and collecting data while building her own personal intelligence files. Apparently Joy doesn’t have the slightest idea how to use the data she had aquired?
Do you know why they don’t let car mechanics go down and perform work, much less highly skilled and technical work in an underground mine? It’s the same reason taking an underground miner and putting them in a highly technical setting in a garage where analyzing computer data is essential to determine which very expensive computers need to be ordered to plug in place of whatever components have failed, except not as deadly.
Do you think Joy is capable of interviewing wildland firefighters, assessing their information, analyzing their intelligence, and then processing that data while determining which information is important or what follow up questions to ask, or what lines of questioning to pursue? And much less what to do with that information? That makes about as much sense as putting me where Joy used to work as a chef and telling me to whip up a soufflé…whatever a soufflé is?
Because that is where we are at now and how far we have sunk. We have gone from having Dudley and his band of cronies, flunkies, luckiest, and sycophants blowing smoke up our skirts, to whatever the hell Joy has been doing for about five years now.
But none of what either Joy or Dudley has done has gotten us any closer to our goals, as TTWARE so recently pointed out, that I know of anyway. What is the point of waiting around here waiting for Joy to finally back up some the bullshit she has been spreading around here for years now? Either that or finally cajoling her SOI’s to come forward by all of her secret code talk and riddles?
I offered years ago for Joy to channel her information to me on the back channel, or anyone else so it could be filtered to protect the source but used to futprtyer our goals and objectives. Otherwise…what is the point of collecting it other than to tease us with?
I have a policy that people should never ask me a question they don’t really want to know the answer to, because I just might give them an answer they don’t like and didn’t want to hear.
Oh…and one more thing. In case you have been able to tell, I am trying to give you a thoughtful and in depth response without reverting to my normal back-of-the-bus hotshot vernacular.
But…watchin’ Joy runnin’ an intel op while collectin’ Sources of Information looks an awful lot like watchin’ a monkey tryin’ to fuck a football to me.
Gary–I understand your interest–you are writing a book and need as much correct information as possible. Perhaps Joy and RTS have not thought how this would delay. Joy has said she wants to present before Congress first–the information she has must come from FOIA’s and other sources. I can only tell you I am not privy to what they have uncovered or any facts that will show expose the truth to what happened at Yarnell–not the false front put out for public viewing. Of course if I knew anymore than I have already said–not much due to my limited experience and knowledge of wild land fire fighting –you would certainly know it would be printed. I know Joy has spent countless hours, money and work at getting at what she has. Whether it is wise to withhold that information before a Congressional Hearing I do not know: however, since she and RTS have the information and have uncovered it, then they will have to make that decision. I do understand that Ted is also privy to the information and it seems they all want to with hold.
I am assured after the Congressmen hear them out, then the info will go public, I would agree with you–since if the information is there I want it public now,. Something to consider on FOIA information is that much of what Joy has can not be given out to anyone–it is only for private use and if given publicly then she is subject to fines and even jail time. I know to get FOIA for public use you have to pay a larger sum–I personally have never gotten FOIA information and Joy did not and would not share with me because she was afraid of breaking the law. Now I would guess that she could share that info with a Congressman or for sure an investigative committee.
I do not like the game and the way it is played either–but then how can I know all the particulars of why Joy, RTS and others that with hold information do so. With Amanda and some others trying to protect a false image for Marsh, Steed and others involved I do understand. But I am told RTS, Joy, Steed and the Idaho People who also are with holding that it will be only a few months now until something happens with the Congress thing. So your guess is as good as mine–and more likely much better with your investigative experience.
With some thought on what should be revealed–the way FOIA law is written allows someone to have the information rather cheaply except when you want to put it out publicly. I think Joy was given information without much redaction because someone wanted the truth out there–yet there are a few wishing she would reveal things that she could be brought down for. I suspect there is much information that would hang Marsh post mortem and likely a few others for bringing him on as a Super with his record. If hiring practices are allowed in the wild fire industry so that men of his caliber are put in positions where they can kill a whole crew of 19 men, then something needs to be changed. I say that without even knowing what are on his records and just from what I have gleaned off IM.
Certainly this site will be of utmost importance to history because it is loaded with information that can only be found here. Some of the younger set will get closure from this site and some of the younger wild land fire fighters who tune in will be rewarded with their lives. It is a strike against those in the system who continue to put reputations before lives. John Daugherty will be rewarded for his pure form–and although some things may be a bit off, anyone willing to challenge the main players here in court will only amplify the truth as it is put forth here.
There are many blogs, web sites, etc out there but this would be the main source of information since it has been in existence and constantly updated since JD put it up early on. But anyone making a blog might add to the truth.
I had another three cancers removed from my face–and each time the nice doctor had to recut and it has again left me with plenty of stitches and keeps me up so maybe a good thing. I get to think about Smokey Bear.
I have those little critters that charge me in the morning and the one I named Bear is always ahead of the pack. He is a male and looks like a miniature baby bear with his friendly nature –but I think he will make a good watch dog. They are like the watchers here and when things do not appear proper they raise hell. Well they are not doing that yet but the four grown dogs including Cooper that I got out of the pound is as bad as Cowboy only twice the size of Cowboy. He is even a bit bigger than the Husky, German Shephard mix that brought all the puppies. Even with my bad hearing I can hear their alarm which is seldom –peace brother and calming of the heart is best.
I think I have been happy no matter where for the most part. We take ourselves with us no matter where we go so that mind is over matter for the most part. Of course certain places are extremely polluted–Yarnell is one and perhaps enough rain will eventually dissipate the poisons dropped about it and maybe not. The old mines–especially that mill tailings dump just out of Congress reek of cyanide poisons and certainly those dumps around Yarnell have the same poisons about. However the death count for Yarnell went extreme after the extreme jumbo jet loads of retardant polluted the area. The death toll is approaching 200 now–good Lord that is one third of the population but nothing much is said about that and no memorials have been put up for those guinea pigs. I actually died from it but was brought back by a good Prescott Doctor and the life support units in ER and the watchful eye of Joy who was able to order the tube removed from my throat and other life supports that needed to be stopped. My son did the same and told them to remove the thing from my throat–too long in there and you can develop pneumonia he said–so maybe things in life support can be overdone and after a time become a detriment Still, although I will finally see the wound doctor for the last time on Friday, I have to see a Pulmonary Specialist due to something on the left lung that acts like a heart attack. Three more cancers to be removed from my face in the meantime–so that is nine that required some pretty rough surgery–not fun for a few days after with this painful face. This time I took some codeine and did not hesitate to relieve the pain–yet in a few days it will be all gone and I can stand another round of cutting. Still, I am grateful it can be done–can you imagine had they gone much longer I would have gotten a real makeover-so you would not recognize the previous Sonny. I feel for people that do face lifts and the such-that would not be my cup of tea after the experience of these–especially the nose job I got to remove one–that is felt. Maybe I am telling you this to save you some pain–you are better off with your old looks and without the pain.
But the psychological pain that the loved ones suffer from their loss will never go away–I still think of my son and it is not right that he went before me–yet life is treacherous at times and people prone to error. I think though the truth of things will help since we need to know why to relieve our pain of loss. And thanks to the people on this site much of that closure has been put forth. People do need to know the truth–so if the people getting the ear of Congressmen are successful then I give them gold stars for their concerns and efforts.
.
Reply to Charlie post on January 30, 2019 at 6:05 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Something to consider on FOIA information is that much of what
>> Joy has can not be given out to anyone–it is only for private use
>> and if given publicly then she is subject to fines and even jail time.
That is complete horseshit.
You ( and, apparently, Joy as well ) are completely misunderstanding the difference between a ‘commercial’ and ‘non-commercial’ FOIA requests.
In BOTH cases… you are absolutely free to ‘publish’ anything you receive.
The ONLY difference is whether or not there is a ‘clear intent’ to MAKE MONEY off the publication of that information.
If you DO have that ‘clear intent’ when you make the FOIA request… then you must say so. That is a ‘commercial’ request… and even then the only difference is the agency you are requesting the records from now has the right to charge for things like ‘research time’ and ‘making copies’ and whatnot.
But if YOU ( the one requesting the records ) do NOT plan on clearly ‘making money’ off the information returned… then you are allowed to make a ‘non-commercial’ request for the information and they are NOT allowed to charge you for ‘research fees’. Maybe still a small fee for making copies… but that’s about it.
Either way… what comes back is YOURS to do with as you please.
You can stand on a street-corner with a loudspeaker and read from the documents, or you could make your own copies and hand them out to anyone you like… or stuff the information under wind-shield wipers in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
Whatever you like.
That information is now YOURS… and if you think the PUBLIC at large has a right to see it ( ALL of it )… you are free to ‘publish’ or ‘post’ that information any way you see fit ( as long as you are not being PAID to do so ).
Even if something then ends up thinking that you ARE making money ( and it has to be REALY MONEY ) off the information you received… and that could ever be proved in a court of law… the ONLY penalties are you might have to then make up the difference for the costs they WOULD have been allowed to charge you if the request was originally specified ‘commercial’ versus ‘non-commercial’.
And there certainly is no ‘jail time’ possible. No way.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I know to get FOIA for public use you have to pay a larger sum
Absolutely NOT.
Yes… an official ‘commercial’ request is subject to some fees ( like research fees and copying fees ) that a ‘non-commercial’ request is exempt from…
…but you do not have to ‘pay more’ to get the same information… or to then have the right to share whatever you get in a PUBLIC way.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I personally have never gotten FOIA information and Joy did
>> not and would not share with me because she was afraid of
>> breaking the law.
See above. Joy is, apparently, still totally confused about all this.
She is TOTALLY FREE to SHARE anything she received from any non-commercial’ FOIA request with anyone she wants… as long as she is not being PAID ( and it has to be REAL money ) for the information.
Followup…
After re-reading my post above… I am feeling the need to apologize.
I should not have typed “That is complete horseshit”.
That was WAY too strong a reaction on my part, and I apologize.
FOIA laws ARE confusing. Many people have the wrong idea about them.
I could not possibly have more respect for you than I already do, and that just seemed like a very rude way to come back at you over such a trivial thing.
The rest of the response still stands, though.
Commercial or non-commercial… you ARE free to ‘publish’ or ‘share’ anything you receive… any way you like… and the ONLY difference ( ultimately ) is whether you are actually doing it for PROFIT, or not.
Ok I was going by what another had told me–I know you would be correct in your response and the correction is well taken. I personally had not gotten a FOIA but when i looked at someone else’s FOIA i was informed that was the law; So thanks–I did not know and certainly did not want to misinform people
No…I don’t think you’re comment was quite strong enough. I have told the same exact thing to Joy numerous times over the years. I finally have concluded that she can’t possibly be that stupid and so the only other explanation for her continual epic intransigence is that her “complete horseshit” is exactly what I have concluded it is, an excuse to keep on doing what the Woodsman described with such clarity above and hoarding her information while scooping up everything she can from us…especially you.
And with all due respect HAL, may I call you HAL because it feels like we kind of gotten to know each other after more than FIVE YEARS, is because this isn’t an acedemic excercise here we are going through because we don’t have anything else better to do, because we all do.
We are doing this because we care about the catastrophic and criminal negligence I the loss of 19 wildland firefighters in what was one of the worst possible ways to die.
And by not only refusing to admit the real reasons they dies, but covering up the real reasons they died, the lives of more firefighters have been put at risk. Because like I always say, “Once may be an anomaly, twice may be a coincidence, but three times is definitely a patten.”
Okay…now I am starting my sabbatical!
Good you know the law, I was going by what I was told, not what I researched or read.
Wow, then you ought to know that the FOIA about Marsh from Prescott is full of reasons he should not have been hired as a supervisor. Did you get a FOIA to inspect on your own. I have not and have not seen it but had been told that Marsh’s FOIA reports are not good when it comes to his abilities as a leader.
I stand down because sometimes hearsay is not admissible –Yet I did not need the FOIA nor hearsay to know that Marsh was a dud. Just the fact that he had broken every rule in the wild land fire fighters safety orders in order to kill his men is enough–but add to that the fact that the very place I did risk my own ass to return from the top of the Weavers to keep Joy from going down to her death–then see that those men were ordered down at that very spot into a zone that anyone should have known was an absolute Russian Roulette game with 5 bullets in the six shooter should have been seen by the dimmest of wild land fire fighting bosses.
I am amused though–and just now on the news a cop and his lady cop friend were playing Russian roulette–she is dead–and they were doing this on duty and I can imagine that was with only one bullet in the six shooter. So there are dim wits everywhere–In fact when I had a bar called Texas Bar in Safford, Arizona, one Chuy Garza shoed me a scar on his cheek where a 22 bullet had exited through his jaw taking out a tooth with it. At least he had wits enough if there can be such thing in Russian Roulette to aim so it did not go into his brain but out the side of his jaw–I do not know if it was a bad tooth he knocked out but he said he would not do that again.
Yet when a wild land fire fighting boss is willing to pay the Roulette game with 18 other lives so he might claim his 15 minutes to fame and be seen as a star wild land fire fighter we are suspect of those that were involved in allowing him to play Supervisor. It makes me sick to my stomach that such ballyhoo could be made to present him and his superiors as having done a good job at fighting the Yarnell Fire.
The fire was at an impossible stage to stop and even going toward Peeples Valley you could see flames exploding ahead so that even at that early time it was the Big Dog Eating. There was no hope to stop it going into Yarnell and the last thing that could save a house was waving a Pulaski around. Evacuation was the only alternative–something assigned to the Sheriff Department who themselves were having to evacuate as soon as possible and any body else–even fire fighters were evacuated to the Ranch House Cafe.
So they can play dumb and you can get all the FOIA information you want–it only can back the obvious.
And no I am not so smart–but even a dummy could see what we were up against and yet the very spot on the two track where Joy was sitting they did drop off into a maze that despite what Willis said–Firefighters can not get through such manzanita fast enough to outrun an approaching fire even if it were coming at 3mph.
The truth was Joy and I escaped with only a ten minute margin and she can describe how difficult it was and how pressured I was to get the hell out of there. But that ten minute margin was actually down to about five when we got in my jalopy and followed out others that had already been driven from their homes along Foothills Drive.
It is pretty simple to see that you do not want to hire fools and psychopaths to boss young wild land fire fighters. It is wonderful that the retired wild land fire fighters here are unhappy with what went down at Yarnell that needlessly killed the young wild land fire fighters. What is horrible is that Marsh and Steed were given a pass as if they did no wrong. They belong to the likes of Billiy the Kid who it was said killed 21–one at a time–maybe if he had a wild land fire handy and with a good recommendation, he could have done it all at once.
Here is the sad thing–i was able to hike with so many wild land fire fighters of long experience–yet not one of those well informed men could understand how you would take your crew down into that situation –that especially after they reviewed the photos Joy had of the dense manzanita and the idea that there was no look out or even an escape possibility–and that was enough even without mentioning communication problems. It was simply a no-brainer to those men–and a no way situation. I don’t know how many more wild land fire fighting pros hiked with Joy on her 900+ hikes but I can imagine none agreed with the Marsh decision–how could they since it was absolutely stupid to risk your crew that way and kill them and including his person as well.
So when the young ones or the common citizen considers those facts, then they will know the falsity of the reports put out by the FS and others with personal agendas to cover the truth If you repeat a lie 21 times people will believe it–sometimes even less–in the case of Yarnell, the lie has been repeated hundreds of times and backed by popular authors, movies and other clowns.
I sometimes think i am too harsh on my reviews of Marsh–it is after all human to err and I could never be the one to cast the first stone. I think so much responsibility lies on those old timers that allowed the situation–those that recommended him and elected him with only a glance at his qualifications. I have always felt that there was more to the Marsh tragedy–that perhaps he in a manner is a scapegoat for a failed system. He certainly is not a hero and hopefully his causing of those deaths was negligible and not intentional homicide. I will depend on the wisdom of WTKTT to get the legal wording correct.–of negligence vs intentional concerning homicides.
In many ways wild land fire fighting is akin to mining–those with little experience are bound to get themselves into serious trouble. And very serious trouble if they are risk takers with some knowledge and willing to take unnecessary risks that ultimately will kill those they supervise as we did see in the case of Marsh and Steed.
With long experience I think I was able to keep alive working in hard rock and Uranium Mining. But even there danger lurks if you did not have the experience–For example I had never been a raise miner. That is something you strictly do on your own–it is too dangerous to have a helper beside you since you are depending upon stulls held in with wooden wedges and a heavy platform made of usually 2×12 lumber. The jack hammer is on a leg and drilling straight up with all that vibration on that platform. If your platform gives and you are up a hundred feet you are almost certainly dead. Why few miners will take that job and why after my first experience of my platform failing and a falll that could have easily ended it all–I had to learn to adjust to the danger–get those damn stulls in tight and proper. But usually because of the long time experience I would have a sixth sense when something was about to give and have jumped back more than once to save myself from being a pancake. So I have to believe the old time fire fighter belongs on the line to determine things –whether men should go down into an area or whether the wind is about to make an about face. I am again reminded of Ted who saved those guys because he stopped them from going into certain death–he knew and yet they were willing to defy his good wisdom about wild land fire fighting–he had to get nasty with them since they were told by their distant commander to go to this point. They were green and yet Ted being with them had his hands full to save their lives.
That old Johnny Bull mine tried to kill me several times just as it had killed that little girl. I think since it was a mine that dated back to the early 1900’s it had probably killed a few good men. The ground was bad in there–even once when I was mining with a partner and we were climbing out the wooden ladder a boulder that just fit between the ladder came down took out three rungs on that ladder and just lodged there –the next rung was the hand hold–and that was totally unexpected. It came close to killing us both. Another time, I was drilling and noticing dust falling from a crack above my head–a quick jump back and the wall came out the size of an automobile bending the steel on my Jack hammer and burying it below a pile of rock and rubble. The last time I was there someone had bulldozed it completely in–maybe they lost a loved one there–but the gemstones were such a lure and so beautiful that mine had to have killed someone that did not have good Irish luck and instincts. I hope it was not Don Gibbert, the guy I mentioned that was on the ladder with me when the rungs were taken out.
So the safety law of having experience in dangerous work is an absolute necessity especially in wild land fire fighting where the man in charge is responsible for those many lives under him and the man in charge of the man in charge of the men–that man is also responsible if he allows a killer to go unabated.
My Dad was in charge of me–but he knew his mining from a long time and kept a close watch on the ground. I never feared around him and I was never hurt all the years I helped him in his mining adventures. He was experienced and I knew he had the utmost concern for my safety–and i think I inherited enough of his mining genes that I could actually enjoy my underground work. The early gods in their spacecrafts needed gold–so they made crazies out of some of us to do things like wild land fire fighting, mining, logging and soldiering Not jobs for the weak, reckless or stupid–better to stick to politicking if you can’t stand the heat in the kitchen.
Oh yeah something about Joy–She has worked tirelessly on the solution to the Yarnell mystery–which is really no mystery–most of the facts are known and told here–plenty to know what really went down that lead to the deaths of the 19. But still the real effects of the truth have yet to happen–meaning changes that need to be made to save lives.
So over the years I have known Joy she has subjected herself to helping others–mostly those unable to do for themselves, although I had seen her pulling weeds for the black lady and her white husband when they had a son so damned lazy he would just watch Joy do her dirty job. I helped the man do some of his plumbing as well–some people are in a position to use others. But our efforts were meant well yet when I see users I back off.
Still Joy had me helping her deliver hundreds of care packages ,and we were doing the type work any good person would care to do. And we saw many of those good people doing work as well–freely volunteering to help people that had lost homes and possessions in Yarnell.
The credit actually goes to Joy for those good works and I hope someday she gets the recognition for her good works. I have seen birds light on her hand and squirrels come to her–something special about that–and sometimes even relocating rattlesnakes. (There are a few of those in wild land fire fighting that need relocating as well) Whatever she is doing to expose the lies and subterfuge I applaud her for it. She may not be doing it just like everyone would like–but she is doing what she believes is best for all==that I can testify to–I would tell Joy keep up your guard–when you get among the Den of Snakes, the bigger they are the more dangerous they become. Going against those that have made big profits off the Yarnell Debacle and are now high as you can get on the political ladder without becoming President –t;hose people are going to defend the early stand they made with all their power–whether they know it is a lie or not–reputation to a political hack is the ultimate and those will defend it with no holds barred.
I do wish her the best. As far as I am concerned the bright side and truth are already out–it just will take someone with clout to put it public where it will do the most good.
One thing is that Joy has known personally the many people that have deceased and kept me abreast of the count–I include myself –but I am not yet burned or buried–the others are. Down the line someone will expose the deadly chemical called Retardant–and Joy I do appreciate your work on that–the 19 was a mass murder situation–the nearly 200 elderly expired in a few short years after the retardant dumps is ten fold the careless homicide of the young fire fighters. It needs recognition. Our elderly are the golden gems of wisdom ==to be honored, not wasted.
And this comment is a variation of a similar comment I made about 5 years ago, but now that more time has gone by and you know me a little better, I think you will understand it better.
The reason I am so confident that I would be able to give everyone the answers regarding what happened to our crew on the YHFD is because it would be ridiculously easy to do so if I still had the law enforcement authority you people trusted me with for 22 years and the support of the U.S. Attorneys Office and the U.S. Forest Service who is deliberately hiding the truth from you and the reason why bought and paid for shitbags like Dudley and Legarza handle problems like the YHFD for management rather than get you know…trained investigators involved in…investigations.
This is how it works;
1. Everyone is entitled to protection against self incrimination under the 5th Admendment Of The U.S. Constutution.
2. No one is guaranteed a job working for the U.S. Government.
3. Everyone who does work for the U.S. Government which includes the U.S. Forest Service is required to tell the truth to Special Agents when those agents are conducting an official investigation, just as long as that required cooperation doesn’t violate the U.S. Constitution etc.
4. Special Agents carry and use what is called a Garrity Warning, which was named after the Federal Judge Garrity. In United States law, the Garrity warning is an advisement of rights usually administered by federal, state, or local investigators to their employees who may be the subject of an internal investigation.
5. The Garrity warning advises subjects of their criminal and administrative liability for any statements they may make, but also advises subjects of their right to remain silent on any issues that tend to implicate them in a crime. (See Kalkines warning concerning federal employees.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrity_warning
6. Once given a Garrett Warning, virtually no federal employee is going to lie to an investigator because if they do, that lie becomes irrefutable grounds for immediate and permanent TERMINATION from their federal employment. The reason we still don’t know what happened to our crew on the YHFD is because the federal civil servants who work for YOU PEOPLE don’t want you to know. And until that changes, or those people, or any number of state employees and other people who know everything decide to come forward and tell us on their own instead of apparently whispering it to enabling shitbags like Joy and RTS who think they have the right to run around and use their connections and this blog to collect information for themselves they are under no obligation to share because they gave some other shitbad a double pinky swear stinky finger promise.
I’m sorry Joy…but if you talk like a shitbag, walk like a shitbag, act like a shitbag, conspire with other shitbags…chances are…you are a SHITBAG. How do you think RTS will like that title when he gets back from his dealio? RTS and you are both shitbags because if you lie down and sleep with shitbags…guess what? You are a shitbag. That’s just the way life is and either you are, or you aren’t. I always had to strong of s sense of right and wrong to go any higher than field ops in the BLM or any other government agency. I had a seat at The Table, but it was always just s temporary seat until I briefed them on what they wanted to know and then I was dismissed so I could go and take a shower after being that close to so many shitbags.
If you and Shitbag RTS ever get tired of being shitbags, you can come in from the cold and get a shower any time you want because the American People are a forgiving people, but we are also a wrathful and warlike people.
Of…and when I said I will be driving the nicest Jeep in Moab, I meant of course the nicest Jeep to me since it is 13 years old and that is my newest Jeep. My oldest Jeep is 21 years old, but I also have a real beater Jeep that is 15 years old. None of them are worth very much money. That’s just the way life is if you love TJ’s (and LJ’s) as much as I do. The good thing about not having much, is you don’t have anything worth suing you for. So sue away motherfuckers!
Oh…and one more thing. The reason I say the Border Patrol will NEVER be able to secure the border on their own, is becausethr Border Patrol has NEVER even come close to securing the border on their own.
Don’t be so stupid as to believe that just because President Trump goes to the boder, and finds some Border Patrol Agents to line up behind him and parrot what he says. is because he is the President of the United States and their boss, not because he is right,
The Border Patrol has gone from about 6000 agents to more than 20,000 agents since 911 and they are no closer to securing the border than they have ever been. And of course if you ask a bunch of Border Patrol agents what they need in order to do their jobs better, they will say, ,”Give us more resources”, 10 out of every 10 times you ask them that same question, but that doesn’t make it true either,
The reason you can tell I am right, is because neither the price of drugs, nor the wide available of cheap labor with the presence of lots of Undocumented Aliens (UDA’S) has never been affected by Border Patrol measures….EVER.
The border can be secured, and like I said below, just follow Israel’s 🇮🇱 example. The only problem is, the Israelis have a few hundred mikes of flat border to seal in its entirety with a short coastline. Whereas we have many, many thousands of miles of unsecured border, the cost of which to secure like the Israelis do it, would be hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars annually and take almost our entire military and then you would have the privilege of buying cherries that cost $10..00 a basket.
And almost all of the other fruit and produce this country grows, would rot in the fields and violent crime….would go up more than you can imagine in your worst nightmare because junkies wouldn’t stop using hard drugs, they would just commit more violent and desperate acts to get those more expensive and almost cost prohibitive drugs.
Remember…the terrorists only have to get lucky once, with one group, at one time, and at one place. We have to be lucky with all groups, all of the time, in every place, 24/7. So…Secure The Border, isn’t code for keep out the terrorists and drugs, it is code for keep out the brown people who don’t look like me, because apparently I come from preferred immigrant heritage…lucky me. Please stop being so fucking STUPID and GULLIBLE! You are embarrassing yourselves.
If you want to stop UDA’S from coming into this country, take away the incentive for greedy business men and greedy customers to hire them. And if you want to stop the flow of drugs into this country, stop the demand for drugs in this country. And if you want to stop terrorists from coming into this country, stop making more of them with our foreign policies and then go and kill everyone of the motherfuckers that are still alive in the spider holes and caves they are hiding in.
Because I say we CAN kill our way out of danger, we just haven’t been trying hard enough or killing enough of them. But…we also have to quit making more of them deliberately, but mostly, we have to kill more of them. And to some extent, we will never be able to eliminate the threat entirely, because there are people who hate us just because of who we are. That’s just the way life is.
I am NOT a liberal or a Democrat. I am a Centrist, an Independent, a Moderate, a Pragmatist and a Realist, you should be one too.
Oh…and two more things. I am a Christian and a Compassionate Conservative and I really try hard not to be a racist, a misogynist, a bigot, a homophobe or xenophobic. But…sometimes I definitely fuck up but I try to own it when I do.
Or a Russian Nationalist Lover…I am definitely NOT a lover of meeting with or working for representatives of the Russian Government, especially their INTELLIGENCE SERVICES!
I kinda gave up on Trumpites when I saw them wearing T-shirts at Trump Rallies that said, “I’d rather a Russian than a Democrat!”
Really? Okay…have it your way motherfuckers!
Whoops 😬, I forgot AMERICAN PATRIOT…because above all else, I am an American Patriot. How about you?
To Boldie from Goldie 🙂
what did the baby light bulb say to the mama light bulb?
I love you watts and watts 😉
If the world is our stage, sir than we need get better lighting – we are both getting older.
At my wedding Craig asked me “does the light go out when you shut the fridge, really?” and I thought yeah I am sure- I think the light was created for those midnight snacks- right?
Light diet I am on…I eat by day light … moon light and again sometimes by the refrigerator light
I have read just a couple not all the comments by you because I am in Navy Seal core training getting ready for school and I have to stay mindful
Also you are opting to pick me out and highlight me is cool because less focus on the real people; the ones that matter- whatever works.
Sonny, another Yarnell death – Jack Robinson – so I will be in Yarnell for that… You bought a vehicle off Jack. Sorry to have to tell you.
Sir, about ballistics…anyone who knows me knows I enjoy challenging on guns and religion. Right, Sonny-
To go there and pick a part each comment. I rather just state “keep your Grendel in your pants…pants pocket.’..that is
You taught me this week for sure FIRE ORDER NUMBER SIX
Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
SO thank you, Gary. 🙂
Hang on…I will read the rest when I can…I was going to yoda my way thru and read it backwards to see if the verbiage changed…I kept thinking of white bar of Ivory soap…wonder why?
Some blustrous and full-tilt-vitriolic-rants- one moment I am thinking you are playing ‘good cop-bad cop’ then I am thinking you are for sure my best friend…the funny part is we have more in common than you think…
The insulting and insinuating behavior of yours might be acceptable or enabled by others yet I stand firm I have been truthful and always will be…
Your opinion is your opinion but half the entire population must be thinking when they read your verbiage much like the dashboard of a vehicle… warning, warning, warning
Everything has its time…
BREATHE DEEPER, Gary
ready…breathe in and breathe out
it is going to be just fine.
take MORE-than-just-one-step BACKWARDS in order to gain even a greater perspective
(after all, Gary I do not see you calling out others just me and I know for sure I do not lay alone in the knows)
FLETC-Training Students:
Have you figured by Gary’s comments what are the tell all secrets I must know..I have coded them throughout the beginning of time here- that I do know..
What was the tactical change from being kind in recent times to then switch back to this?
Did you note students, I jumped out a funk thanks to Gary and so remember when someone calls on you or calls you out
REMEMBER THE THANK YOUS ALWAYS
Thank you Gary O-
Now return to FLETC_Training-101 Curriculm.
oh wait…Class…before you go…always keep up on your insults and practice them here on IM after you retire…or practice the Delivery-of-the-SAME- in your mirror at least once a week and even take selfies as you BELLOW and BLUSTER and THREATEN and INTIMIDATE until the HOUSE shakes—selfies are good and come across less intimidating….
BELLOW AWAY!
Rinse-Dry-Repeat
Hmmm-m-m-m….hidden away in the desert or forest…passing by the wolf and lion…
eekkkk…I failed to see that sign as I traversed
Please do not feed the animals.
I replied and fed the beast that is burdened-
oops. me sorry 😉
good night, Gary.
https://www.powerstream.com/powerhumor.htm
Gary, in the end and during this all…I got your back…you want people like me on your team.
When you tell me it’s Easter- it better April 😉
You and I were not born for the wings, eh.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pr0digie/6182619198
or were we? I have mine I got for flying as a kid-
you?
Remember to base your days on joy- do not base it on feelings or how today goes…
What fluctuates more than my finances, health and weight….are Gary’s rants 😉
“Mic drop”
Yes it’s true…I have an bag full of old and now mostly useless tools. Unfortunately… none of them work in this virtual setting. I did a lot better with close physical proximity, police powers, the support of the U.S. Attorney’s Office and the backing of the United States Government.
Oh…and a really big gold badge that shouted SPECIAL AGENT! It didn’t even matter what agency it said I worked for because nobody’s eyes ever made it that far because they just peed on themselves a little bit.
True Story,
I went into a jail one time to interview a suspect in a case I was working. After closely examining my badge and credentials, at the first bullet proof glass window, the deputy yelled “OPEN THE DOOR…FBI’S HERE.!”
But I needed to go into the high security area so at the next bullet proof glass window after carefully examining my credentials and badge, the next deputy yelled, “OPEN THE DOOR…THE U.S. MARSHALL’S ARE HERE!
After that, I was tempted to get a Private Security Badge and credentials on the internet just to see if they worked as well as a Master Key to open all doors. I miss the good old days when people like Joy couldn’t laugh at me and just ignore me until I went away.
It’s not personal…it’s just business. I only care about accomplishing my objectives. I learned that fighting wildfires. Wildland firefighting is a very goal oriented business.
Gary,
Sonny came up with a great plan-
Head to NM and become his wood splitter…
might be the best route, eh.
Just walk away into the dust…
better than dust to dust….ashes to ahses…eh
Whoops…I misspoke. I shouldn’t have written people “like Joy”, I should have just written…”people.”
I am old, impotent, and nearly useless. You should help me now because you should feel sorry for me. What kind of heartless people are you anyway?
Yes…that might be my best opportunity under the circumstsnces.
Life’s a bitch( non gender specific) and then you DIE!
Good news, I will see if this posts again–Joy has taken a video today of the wall where the drip torches at the Shrine area were being used–a picture is worth a thousand words.
“It’s not personal Joy…it’s strictly business.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FUh3TZpMCY4
They are ignorant enough to want to be Russians, but I can tell you that there are plenty of Russian people trying to leave Russia and come here. They do not know history well enough of how millions were put to death–even their soldiers were to charge Germans without weapons into machine gun fire to pick up the weapon of the guy in front of them once he was killed and to turn back at such a slaughter was to be shot. That system is by no means a good one for lives–and Jane Fonda–you screwed up royally riding a Red tank while our men were dying. But you did get your photo on a rubber mat in a Urinal at the American Legion at Yarnell.
So yes, perhaps Trump will get his Trump tower in Russia and perhaps he likes Putin’s tactics of taking care of those that protest his presidency–but there are certainly plenty of us ready to defend good old America that is great–not a place that has lost its greatness.
It is always true of Dictators–they abhor the press when it does not parallel his purpose. They will do everything to repress any bad news and will always get rid of anyone that hints of objecting to their methods. It is only yes men and even those he can not trust. Fortunately there are enough powers in the democratic system to keep him somewhat at bay.
But with his ability to declare a National Emergency then anything might happen. Eisenhower did not even go that far when it came to the worry over illegal aliens.
This President will pass and perhaps the cycle will start again. Only two more years of his BS and then who will fill his shoes? Will it be the guy that runs Star Bucks. Might be good coffee at the White House if he does.
I wonder what powers the President really has and how much political subterfuge goes on. Noriega was involved in major Drug running and eventhough Reagan knew that, he was not disposed until the public began to be informed of how rotten Pineapple Head as his protesters called him had become. Bush sent the army down when he started waving his machete at the US. But when it comes to Kim Jong-un he is waving his nuclear at us–South Korea, Japan and whomever else he dislikes.
Gary is right about McCain–though not all the Vietnamese are happy about what the US did in Vietnam. When I was in Helena riding my bike around town and sleeping out in my Wagoneer, I met a Vietnamese man who told me he never understood why we would invade his country. He did not think it was right but he was only a small voice in a sea of people. So it would be interesting to know–and I doubt a poll would favor our invasion.
When the economy is waning, a good war seems to appear. Roosevelt brought the US out of the depression by taking on Germany. Truman followed by killing a few hundred thousand Japanese in one swoop with A Bombs. I have heard the pilot that flew the Enola Gay, unlike McCain would wind up in an insane asylm. It had to bear upon him for all the civilians he killed–but McCain did not seem to be bothered by his indiscriminate bombing that killed the enemy and the innocents as well. Collateral damage is a polite word for indiscriminate killing. But this is war and there were guys bragging about collecting ears of dead soldiers. There is barely a hand full of peace time Presidents.
But to Trump’s favor he seems to be wanting to bring Troops home from interfering with Syria–I doubt that will extend to nations that have plenty of oil to supply us.
So it truly is a dangerous world when your leaders are on the psychotic side. Very dangerous if you are a wild fire fighter and your bosses have the freedom to break every safety rule and take you down and sacrifice your life knowing full well their actions are risking that very thing.
There is good and evil and it certainly stands as evil when 19 men are needlessly killed. But the system has a large paint brush that extends from the top down and I think it is so high that only a Congressman or a President can intervene.
Don’t count on the representatives–they have their hands in the till–even in building memorials and awarding these contracts to relatives and cronies. But if you are going to be successful to gain a better G rating, then you best listen to those fellows above you and as Gary puts it, play the sticky finger.
Wouldn’t it be nice if we could get an honest report about the killing of those 17 young heroes. What would induce Marsh and Steed to do what was the unthinkable? Maybe it will actually take decades before all the facts come out–mostly when men involved in this game retire and decide to come clean–and maybe not until their death beds?
I think if someone would copy this site and send it to every Congressman then something might happen to get to the truth and start looking at how things are being done to cause these deaths.
Hear Ye, Hear Ye–Congressmen–these people of high esteem and standing that have spent long years at this wild land fire fighting profession speak out. Take time to listen to these mostly retired wild land fire fighting bosses to their musings. There expertise well exceeds the men who have cursorily investigated the killing of the GMHS crew.
I do have to believe some do read IM posts. They will if they want a good understanding of the hidden truth of the Yarnell Debacle.
Gary the population is 65% Latino here– Latinos will rule what they had from the get go– good thing to learn Spanish–I took 5 years at the NMSU and speak and read enough to do well–Russian here will not do.
Did not get that one Gary? Count you as number one in getting at the truth–am I missing a lot? I know you are direct but this seems like you know and I am certain you do much understand more than I could ever know. Being simple as I am, I depend much upon the nuances of things–and what gives here? You certainly are calling out people on their shit.
Now being simple is good because I can be direct. One reason that people that live in Idaho would not share with me because they said Sonny, you would tell it right out. And that is true because I am that way–yet also I understand how people like to play the undercover
Undercover with me almost cost me my life–I was not undercover but the cop was and he never informed me. My kids were at stake and that was something no man dared harm. So I have never liked undercover operations since. Bring the truth out and boldly.
I can see I am missing much that you know way beyond my understanding and abilities so I will stand down on this one with much due respect to you– and what more can I say?
Well there is entitlement to the loved ones and to the truth and I do have to say if I have any feelings of who is ahead in knowledge and wisdom of the truth–Gary your sources and age would be on top and I will always say Amen to the truth.
I have had a few whiskeys tonight with my son–He said he quit his job and is getting a new one because he took off due to my gun shot wound–he did not think I would live–and when the boss told him he could not take another week he told them then fire me. The did but then told him he could come back but he refused. Now he is working on the Navajo reservation and I told him that I had been fired as a miner once for throwing a pipe wrench at the mine superintendent. I was hired the next day at the mine up the street–miners wee hard to find and you did not agitate them if you wanted to keep them. I think ER RN’s have about the same status–life saving is a tough job and few can qualify.
I will not make any remarks here on what Gary has said–I think he has something to back his report– But either way–Yes we do have that connection and I really believe your Dad and I will be close friends in another life and you will be there with us. I have to admit, when I saw your Dad’s photo I knew he was the best of the best–one I would have gladly enjoyed some of those frozen pictures of beer with. Your Dad was the real miner and immediately I knew he was a friend who would have died for me as I would have for him. He was indeed a warrior and If anyone deserved an award for being a hero that would be him. You see, few would understand that but I certainly do.
Oh…just ignore me until I go away like almost everyone else does 😞 I am just frustrated because I can’t fix something that I know is so easy to fix…if you have the right tools, training and authorization.
I need to go on a sabbatical and just work on my tome. I will be back to post my backlogged comments because it’s very important for everyone to stay up to speed on what I am thinking about the YHFD, wildland firefighting in general and whatever else pops into my mind at the time. I wish I drank…or at least smoked dope.
Ciao
Gary said:
“I am just frustrated because I can’t fix something that I know is so easy to fix…if you have the right tools, training and authorization. ”
I said:
Yep. I’m firmly standing right beside you in that camp, friend…..I have better things to do with my life, seeing as how much further along towards the truth we have gotten here in contrast to effort expended.
Thank you Woodsman.
And just in case anyone is thinking I am engaging in revisionist history that is out of context, I can assure you I am not. I am just repeating history, I’m not rewriting it.. I am not condemning General Kit Carson for being a genocidal war criminal, because he was after all, carrying out official U.S. Government policy. I am simply stating he was a genocidal war criminal, well I guess that is overstated because there weren’t Geneva Convetion standards to judge war criminals by back then. And to be fair, the Indians certainly committed a great many atrocities as well against both white people and the Spanish.
So…I should simple say he was a genocidal killing machine who was directly or indirectly responsible for killing about 1/3 of the Navajo people and lots and lots of other Indians just like President Andrew Jackson was.
But General Carson did break the will of the Navajo people to fight and forced them onto a reservation with the “Long Walk” (see true story below) in less than two years, which was something the historically brutal Conquistadors weren’t able to do in 300 years.
And, who knows how many Pueblo Indians the Navajo slaughtered when they invaded the 4 corners region as relatively late comers and mostly drove out the descendants of the Anasazi people from their lands.?
And to Sonny’s point, I’m sure when one of my heroes, Senator John McCain, was dropping bombs on the Capital City of the Vietnamese people, he probably called them the “G” word in order to dehumanize them, which would make it easier to drop bombshell on them.
And he probably admitted before his death some of those bombs were off target and hit civilian targets which resulted in the deaths of civilians including children. And we know that after they shot him down, they tortured him for 5 1/2 years.
But we also know in the end, both he and the Vietnamese people embraced and forgave one another. And Senator McCain took the lead in normalizing our relations with Vietnam and now that country is a favorite place to visit by Americans. My own brother visited there, Cambodia, and Thailand many times because he was a world traveler and he loved that region of the world. My brother also loved to go trekking up into the Himalayas in Nepal, Turkey and every other out of the way place you can think of.
We also know that the Vietnamese government placed a statue of Senator McCain next to the lake he landed in before they captured him and he is a highly revered and much loved person in Vietnam today.
I know history is complicated and messy. I’m just trying to be more like John McCain that’s all. And I know white people don’t have to fear to live among brown people because we are so much alike.
But all of my stories from my 18 years in New Mexico aren’t happy or peaceful ones, because there are really bad people everywhere you go and from every race. At the end of the day, humans are a very dangerous and unpredictable species and they say we are the only species on the planet who kills for pleasure instead of just food.
Okay, I think I have done all of my housekeeping and I am finally ready to start my sabbatical, except for my last True Story for a while.
I was and still am friends, with one of the U.S. Attorneys from Arizona, Paul Charlton, who is now in private practice because he was one of the U.S. Attorneys fired by President George Bush and Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez because he wouldn’t implement illegal and immoral enforcement actions. That episode eventually cost Gonzales his job and remains a black mark on the Presidency of W, but that isn’t the point of this story.
Anyway, I worked with Paul for many years and got to know him well as the finest Assistant U.S. Attorney I ever worked with when he was a junior prosecutor working for former U.S. Attorney for Arizona, Arizona Governor, Department Of Homeland Security Secretary and current head of the University of California system, Janet Napolitano. Who I also knew quite well because she gave me a Special Agent Of The Year award in 1998.
Wow…this is really a long set up, but anyway…Paul eventually because THE U.S. Attorney for Arizona because John McCain wanted it that way. So anyway, Paul used to tell a story that whenever he prosecuted cases that involved older Navajos from the reservation who didn’t speak English, the Navajos translators would identify him to the non English speaking older Navajo as., “The man from Fort Sumner.” This met he was a high ranking representative of the U.S. Government in the Navajo language, which is something I still find fascinating to this day.
Fort Sumner is down in Lincoln County, New Mexico, which is the old Billy the Kid territory and it was the terminus for the “Long March” for the Navajo. “The Long March” was very similar to the “Trail of Tears” for the tribes who were forcibly relocated to Oklahoma from their lands down in Georgia, Florida and maybe some other states…S.E. U.S.
Ft Summer was also the concentration camp for both the Navajo and Mescalero Apaches. So…the “Long March” and Ft. Sumner may be ancient and forgotten history to us, but the Navajo people haven’t forgotten about either one of them.
Whoops, I knew something wasn’t right. “The Long March” was of course the Chinese Red Army retreating before the Japanese during their invasion of China prior and during WWII.
The Long Walk of the Navajo, also called the Long Walk to Bosque Redondo, refers to the 1864 deportation and attempted ethnic cleansing of the Navajo people by the government of the United States of America. Navajos were forced to walk from their land in what is now Arizona to eastern New Mexico to be interred at the concentration camp at Fort Sumner.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Walk_of_the_Navajo
Although my brother was a trekker, not a mountain climber, so he hiked through the lower Himalayas including the Annapurna Mountain Range, He even wanted to retire in the Philippines 🇵🇭 before cancer took him at 50. He went everywhere I would NEVER go for any reasons. He worked for Alaska Airlines as a baggage handler so he could fly anywhere, anytime…for free. Well technically, when he died he had already retired from Alaska Airlines and he was working for the Alaska Marine Highway System as an able bodied seaman. But he still got to fly for free anywhere, and at anytime. He could also name one person to have the same benefit, so I could as well…I just didn’t like to go anywhere I couldn’t take a gun and the US. Constitution with me. Cause…I’m kinda PARANOID! But just because I’m PARANOID…doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get me…know what I mean?
I just meant I’m with you on being done chasing the dangling carrot of FOIA information…most of the rest is just nutty.
I’ve said for years what you can & can’t do with FOIA but here we are….
Tired of guessing at likely scenarios and culpable individuals.
Goodbye.
Yep
I concur.
Amen!
Pretty slick how I slipped the whole Special Agent Of The Year right into the middle my True Story…right Woodsman?
I used to keep the plaque Napolitano gave me on a coffee table in my living room, just in case somebody came over. And then I would pretend I was just getting ready to hang it in the garage.
I ran out of good Irish Whiskey so I am going to follow up with Tito’s Vodka made in Austin Texas. When did Texan’s learn to make vodka? Well a sip in some coke a cola –I will have to add another shot -it is too smooth–My ancestors on my mom’s side–TJ Nichols died in the Alamo. When I was 12, my Aunt Arizona May Baxter took me and my mom to San Jacinto and to Daughters of the Confederacy to honor his death. Shit I did not know I was related to someone so famous –but supposedly we were heirs to large Spanish Land Grants in Texas and somehow my Aunt Zona wound up rich but the Gilligan family did not. Arizona May was a tall red head and even her underarm hairs stood out red–only a 12 year old would see that.
So in those days I was living –or surviving off the desert with my good mom and dad–I still love them both–they were survivors until the end of their time. We were poorer than the Guatemalans that want to come into the US but we did not know that –in fact I did not know that until I met some poor Mexicans and then realized they were richer than our family. But then I still did not think anyone was poor as the word was put out. Of course we could not afford socks and I was using tire treads cut out to re soul my brogans what we called clod hoppers. Still it was a mind game-poor is in the mind and I have always been rewarded by God and I think more correctly the Irish Goddess with DNA that few have. Longevity and a light heart that can take abuse or not and still fly like a bird in the wind.
So I have saved and been saved over these three quarters of a century of life. Saved when that fire chief put a glass jug of gasoline on a wood stove and it lit up and exploded over me at 4 years of age–Mom was the hero there–and again I returned the favor when I jumped in the Gila River at Red Rock, NM to save a drowning girl–so life equals out.
Gary is right–kindness but truth. And if you have to be a warrior then do that. It is alright to eat out of a garbage can if that is all there is–I have never had to do that or beg on a street corner–but I have given a few dollars to those that do.
After my son died in 99, I tied a cross to my back to drag it 10 miles up the mountain from Prescott Valley Flea Market to Prescott. Jeremiah–before I left looked at my puny cross and said, Tex–that would not be right– well he had the right name and had also killed a guy in his dope business back in New York –so he said and I know people he did___ so we revamped the cross to a log with the cross piece and it weighed 83 pounds. Now that was more like it–Jesus dragged it about 7, so ten was not out of order since it is uphill from Prescott Valley to Prescott proper.
At that time I was sluicing gold on the Hasayumpa and trying out some things Jesus did in this life. That was quite an experience– I was both jeered and saluted for dragging the cross–almost a ticket from the cop but a Prescott Newspaper fellow stopped as the cop was writhing a ticket–which was quickly changed to a warning and also the cop said he was only watching out for my safety. I made the Prescott news but that was not my intention. Yet I did make the journey all the way to that Little Christian Chruch that was feeding the homeless. Maybe still is–Church on the Street. I suffered three days after–I was living out–but the wood had eaten some holes in my back==but nothing like the hole from the 12 guage shot gun blast now there.
Why would I share this–I as myself– I was cursed, I was blessed I was hit by a Datsun pickup and thrown into the street (they wanted to call an ambulance –I got up and continued–) But maybe I did know a very little of the humiliation of Jesus if it is written correctly because there were some that would have hung me on the cross if they could legally have done so. I repeated this act in Phoenix and in the Minneapolis area of dragging that cross.
Now you know I am crazy–but so was Jesus. The truth never hurts anyone except those who deny it.
I was always fascinated by what were identified to me by local people as the secret Penitente trails up the mountains in the back country in New Mexico. You would have made a good Penitente Sonny. You know…except for the religion part.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penitentes_(New_Mexico)
Correction,
I should have written, “hills” not “mountains”, the trails were up hills behind some of the very small isolated Spanish villages. Places where people like me could “disappear” in muerte, so I never got curious…just fascinated.
I had those experiences while working as the Forest Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe. The village of Mora, which is mentioned in the Wikipedia article,was within my patrol area.
A local U.S. Forest Service person was with me one time as a guide during an all night patrol in the mountains above Mora.
As the sun was coming up, we were looking down on the village of Mora and I remarked what a beautiful valley it was He reached over a touched my arm and said, “A beautiful valley filled with very dangerous people who will kill you bro…I don’t want you to ever forget that.”
And I never did.
Yes I knew about Mora–I was a dangerous area if you did not belong to a family of the area. But as I see the world increasing in population it also increases in danger and instability The have nots are on internet now and you might say steroids–they are seeing now in it will not be a pretty picture for the future. Global Warming is only a part of the scene when you have people like the North Korean demigod armed with nukes.
I just think how easy it was to shut this country. down by knocking down the twin towers. Imagine someone sneaking in a few of the 70 pound nukes that can take out a whole city. Certainly the CIA missed stopping 19 Arabs from doing that. So what is the guarantee they will keep out the nukes? Trump thinks the iron curtain will work to keep out the dope (dumb idea) and maybe he thinks the nukes as well–too much coast line that will allow aliens, dope, and other dangers into the country.
When the shit hits the fan I hope some of us are prepared to continue on as long as possible.
When you see government agencies cover up the true reasons deaths such at the 19 GMHS crew, then you understand you better not rely on information from that source but start realizing you will be pretty much on your own. Not that the agencies are bad but they do have some seedy people installed in some of those positions.
Technology has developed to a great point. But then common sense will always be important.
Whoops,
I misspoke because those isolated Spanish villages up north were places ANYBODY could disappear en la muerte including Spanish people who weren’t from THOSE particular villages. It wasn’t necessarily a race thing…but it was always an outsider thing.
But…I have at least a thousand stories of how both the Spanish and Native American (Pueblo) people around Santa Fe welcomed me and made my eight years on the Santa Fe National Forest some of the best and most successful years of my career.
True Story.
Part of my job as the Assistant Fire Management Officer on the Tesuque and later the Espanola District was to take the lead in organizing the many SWFF crews fielded by the Santo Domingo Pueblo, which had what I think was the largest population of all of Pueblos along the Rio Grande and it fell within our district boundaries.
So one day I was meeting with the Santo Domingo Governor at his house, which happened to be during Feast Days. Feast Days is one big festive party so his extended family were also coming and going from his large adobe house as were other people while we met to discuss our business.
So anyway…at one point the Governor’s wife sent his granddaughter over to stand in front of me to sing me a song. She was about 6, and she was all dressed up with a very pretty dress for the festival and her hair was all fixed up for the celebration.
And she had one of the biggest and brightest smiles I had ever seen because she was so proud to be called upon by her grandmother to entertain their guest with her special song that she had memorized by heart.
Everyone in the room grew quiet and she began to sing with a beautiful little voice;
One little, two little, three little Indians
Four little, five little, six little Indians
Seven little, eight little, nine little Indians
Ten little Indian girls.
Ten little, nine little, eight little Indians
Seven little, six little, five little Indians
Four little, three little, two little Indians
One little Indian girl.
And then we all laughed and clapped and told her how well she had sung her special song. And that little girl was so happy with all of the attention she was getting and her smile got even bigger and brighter.
Like I said…living in a minority/majority culture can really change your perspective on life. At least it changed mine.
Oh…and one more thing. The Santo Domingo SWFF Crews were considered by most people including me, to be the best SWFF crews out of New Mexico because they had a long and very proud tradition with their crews.
Most of the Native Americans who were on the Santa Fe Hotshots during my time as crew boss were in fact former Santa Domingo SWFF wildland firefighters. Although there were some who came from the smaller Pueblos including those that weren’t on the Rio Grande like the Laguna and Acoma Pueblos which were 100 miles or more from Santa Fe to the west.
Now that I think about it, I’m sure that I overestimated the little girls age because the whole point of the grandmothers inside joke and ironic satire was the fact that her granddaughter was too young to understand how racist, or at least racially insensitive that song really is.
And although I was included in the inside joke, I didn’t feel like I was the target of it, nor was it done at my expense, because I was an incidental guest who just happened to be there and I was “special” only because I was the only non Indian anywhere around and this was clearly something they had been working on for quite some time.
Probably not only as ironic satire and an inside joke, but as a legitimate mnemonic device as the song was originally intended to be in order to help children learn how to count.
But since I was there, the grandmother was sharing her inside satirical and ironic inside joke with me in a good natured way. I could tell because she had a real twinkle in her eye as she waited for my reaction to the song. I managed to keep my poker face on because I was there after all, to discuss official business in my U.S. Forest Service uniform that just happened to be during Frwst Days. I think that little girl must have been about four…maybe?
Correct that it was the Prescott Valley News reporter that saved me–they did an article and there was the photo of me and the cross and the cop writing the ticket. It makes me understand of Jesus being spat upon–I was only cursed– and the humiliation of being half god and half man with universal truths and taken to drag a post or cross for those universal truths.
Tomorrow I am happy because three more cancers will be removed–low from the last one I can play scare face. I have to smile–do not worry time slips away so fast that you sometimes think you are living yesterday. Do not believe the AEC nor the retardant dumpers. Jack my good friend at Yarnell–it does hurt–he has now died as have the whole block that he lived upon. You see, today, I walked my fence to see where my good dogs have been getting out–it was an effort because I was taxed in breath to make only 100 yards and put up a few bricks to keep them inside my 4 acres. Your retardant dumpers are liars of the highest order–they are depriving us of elderly life of our final years–years that wisdom abounds.
Oh, about Jack-this is atrocious–when good people die because they are guinea pigs of a retardant dump then those that do such are responsible. Good people do not deserve this–mind your intelligence–see what your are doing–only an idiot can not understand the destruction and horrible outcomes from dumping this poisonous pollution near homes. Jack’s whole block is now dead because of your actions/.
You killed my friend when you killed Jack. He died of your lung killing retardant because he was elderly and his lungs were already taxed–but his whole block of people are now dead from the effects of the retardant. If it were not for the Gods of the Irish, Sonny Gilligan would be dead too for I can barely make a hundred yards before being completely shut down. I defy your killing because I want your to realize how many lives your are guilty of destroying. So now it is coming to one third of the population of Yarnell dead because of your so called good intentions of dumping retardant all about Yarnell. Truth is you all made money and fortunes at the expense of the health and live of people of Yarnell–mostly elderly in the golden years of life but also the younger set to suffer now and later.
A short video clip of how NOT to fight a wildfire, even when you have water.
( https://www.facebook.com/152493721555105/posts/1374150249389440/ )
Reply to Woodsman post on January 23, 2019 at 11:12 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> These 2 interviews were very strange. There is obviously much
>> hidden information about the YHF that is known by many.
John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA obtained Darrell Willis’ cellphone records a LOOONG time ago ( not long after the reports came out ), and it has always been VERIFIED that Willis did not make ( or receive ) any cell calls to ( or from ) Eric Marsh in the hours just prior to the deployment.
Radio calls are still another ( unresolved ) story, but the cellphone records were ‘verified’ a LOOONG time ago ( thanks again go out to John Dougherty ).
However… there have always been at least 2 ‘squirrelly’ things about what Willis told ADOSH regarding the ( known ) cellphone calls that day…
1. Willis NEVER mentions that he tried to call Marsh AFTER the deployment, which he certainly did. His cellphone records show that call taking place at exactly 4:59 PM ( but Marsh was already dead ).
2. Willis DID talk with Marsh circa 6:00 AM that morning ( just as he told ADOSH ), but Willis told ADOSH ( FOUR separate times ) that it was Eric Marsh that called HIM that morning.
That is NOT TRUE.
Willis was either totally mis-remembering what actually happened, or ( for some reason ) was totally lying about it.
The cellphone record for that 6:00 AM call ( it was actually at 5:52 AM ) proves that it was always Willis who called Marsh… and NOT Marsh calling Willis.
Below is the formatted information from Willis’ cellphone record for HIS 5:52 AM call TO Eric Marsh.
Willis was already in Yarnell ( the ‘Origin’ of the call, according to the cellphone record ) and Marsh was still up in Prescott ( the ‘Destination’ of the call, according the cellphone record ).
————————————————————————————————–
Date: 6/30
Time: 5:52 AM
Number: 928-237-0508 ( Eric Marsh’s cellphone number )
Rate: Off-Peak
Usage Type: N&W
Origination: Yarnell AZ ( FROM: Darrell Willis’ phone, down in Yarnell )
Destination: Prescott AZ ( TO: Eric Marsh’s cellphone number, up in Prescott )
Duration: 4 minutes
————————————————————————————————–
But here is Willis telling the ADOSH investigators, FOUR separate times over TWO different interviews, that it was Eric Marsh that called HIM that morning…
From Willis’ FIRST ADOSH interview…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = SPGS2 ( and Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) Darrell Willis
—————————————————————————————————–
58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I RECEIVED a
59 phone call at about 6:00 FROM Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
60 already deployed on the Yarnell Hill Fire as a Structure Protection Specialist
61 and, ah, he – my assumption was that they were gonna be working on the
62 Prescott National Forest that day. ‘Cause we had a lightning bust that day, ah,
63 Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And they, ah, he ca- Eric called ME and said,
64 “Hey we just got an assignment to the Yarnell Hill Fire.” And my comment
65 back to him was, “Good. I’m down here. Maybe we’ll get to work together.”
475 A: And I don’t know what, you know, I l- after that 6 am phone call, um, that I
476 got FROM Eric, I don’t know what else…
——————————————————————————————————
From Willis’ SECOND ADOSH interview…
Q5 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = SPGS2 ( and Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) Darrell Willis
—————————————————————————————————–
685 Q5: Well, I – I’ve got a question for Darrell. Uh, Darrell, you remember when we
686 talked, uh, you had – you, uh, you – you described to us, uh, your last phone
687 call with, um, with Eric, that HE had called about 6 o’clock that morning. And
688 – and you had a conversation with him. And then, uh, recently, we got a copy
689 of the, uh, interview notes from the SAI team. And, um, and in that, you
690 described like that last call. But – but the two descriptions are a little bit
691 different. And I was wondering if you could just clear up for us, uh, what that
692 – how that last call went and – and, uh, what your recollection is at this point in
693 time…
694
695 A: Okay.
696
697 Q5: …that last call with Eric.
698
699 A: Okay, um, and I’m gonna go approximate. Ek- I don’t know if the time’s off
700 or what other – ever. It was, uh, early in the morning, I’m thinking around 6
701 o’clock in the morning. I remember getting a call FROM Eric telling me that,
702 uh, he was gonna come down, uh, that they had been assigned to the Yarnell
703 Hill Fire. I said that I thought, uh, “Oh that’s great.” And he didn’t realize
704 that I was there. And, uh, they were gonna go and pick up some groceries or
705 to get some food. And then they would be right down, heading out of town
706 there. And, uh, he re- mentioned to me that, uh, I kinda gave him a little
707 description of what I thought they would be doing. But I didn’t know, that I
708 though they would be anchoring because there wasn’t any anchor on the fire
709 at the time. And then, uh, as I remember, the last conversation was they say,
710 “Well, we love working with you, chief.” And I said, “I love working with
711 you, too, and be safe.” And that was it.
———————————————————————————————————
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I don’t know if I can handle re-examination of Cordes or Abels
>> interview for a few days now. I need to clean up after this one.
I hear ya. Going over most of this stuff just makes you want to take a shower.
FWIW… other post-tragedy media articles and interviews with Willis indicated that he felt quite a built of GUILT afterwards for his involvement in them being where they were, up at that anchor point, that day.
Some reports about that 6:00 AM ( actually 5:52 AM ) cellphone conversation he had with Marsh report that Willis basically flat-out GAVE Marsh his ‘work assignment’ DURING that phone call and told Marsh “We have GOT to get an anchor on this thing”.
That was before they even GOT to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And ( sure enough )… that is exactly the ‘assignment’ that Marsh himself was potching for the moment they rolled into Yarnell. Exactly what Willis had said he wanted THEM to be doing.
But ( as you can see him doing above in his ADOSH interview ), Willis finally ‘admitted’ to ‘discussing’ the situation with Marsh but backs off on whether or not he simply TOLD Marsh to go down there and “get an anchor on this thing”.
And with Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini sitting right next to Willis during that second ADOSH interview… perhaps this ‘back-pedaling’ on whether Willis was ‘playing IC’ that day and giving his OWN Hotshot crew their actual assignment on the fire had more to do with LIABILITY issues than GUILT.
So at the time BOTH of these ADOSH interviews took place with Willis, there actually WOULD have been ( legally speaking ) a big difference as to whether or not Marsh called Willis or Willis called Marsh. We are talking about LIABILITY issues here, which is what everyone was VERY worried about, at that time.
But cellphone records don’t lie.
It was Willis who called Marsh that morning… and NOT the other way around as Willis kept insisting during his ADOSH interview(s).
Followup…
Even in his interview with the SAIT investigators, Willis was still saying that it was Eric Marsh who called HIM that morning ( and not the other way around, as Willis’ cellphone records prove )
It’s also in his SAIT interview notes were he says he TOLD Eric Marsh ( during that 5:52 AM call ) “We GOT to get an anchor on this thing”.
As if that was an ‘order’ and that is what HE wanted GM to do when they arrived.
That is, of course, exactly what GM set about doing when they DID arrive.
Willis also mentions the ‘guilt’ about him ‘having made this comment’ to Eric, because that was what put them all the way out there on the Weaver mountains that day… and created the situation that would later lead to their deaths.
From Darrell Willis’ SAIT interview notes…
———————————————————————————————–
0600 Eric calls and advises chief of dispatch, Chief Willis does remember telling Eric Marsh, the Granite Mtn IC: “this thing is not anchored – we got to get an anchor on this thing” , quick SA on fire and freqs. ( he seemed to have some minor “guilt about having made this comment to Eric) this was the last conversation he had with Eric or anyone else on Granite Mtn. Hotshots.
———————————————————————————————–
And now… once again… here is Willis ‘back-pedaling’ on that description of his phone call with Eric that he gave to the SAIT.
This time… it is his SECOND ADOSH interview… but Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini is now sitting right next to him…
————————————————————————————————–
706 I kinda gave him ( Eric Marsh ) a little
707 description of what I thought they would be doing. But I didn’t know, that I
708 though they would be anchoring because there wasn’t any anchor on the fire
709 at the time.
————————————————————————————————
CLASSIC back-pedal.
He knew the ADOSH investigators had the cell phone records so he couldn’t lie about the morning phone call…but he could lie about who called whom (repeatedly I might add) OR he was simply mixed up about it. I doubt that he was. He was former chief of PFD & current wildland division chief. That was his crew & he called the shots. What does the record show for Saturday evening calls from Willis to Marsh? I would find it hard to believe Willis did not play a major role in clawing GM back in from their planned days off.
If he lied about that than he absolutely establishes the high probability that he would lie about other things associated with the YHF. I will say that I see a lot of closed body language exhibited by Willis in photos and videos I have viewed of him after the fire including (but not limited to) staff rides. Closed body language may indicate someone feels threatened, has something to hide, or is being deceptive.
I would also be surprised if Willis, being the wildland division chief of PFD, former chief of said, and now in a major operational supervisory position on a different geographic area of the same fire, who admitted that communications were not a problem on the fire, admitted that he not only had GMs radio frequencies but was also monitoring them…….He never communicated not one iota with GM all day long by radio??. I personally find that very difficult to believe.
He backpedaled in the interviews and shows me that he has information he is withholding. He’s simply not telling the whole story. My opinion based upon both empirical and strong circumstantial evidence….
The preponderance of evidence suggests that he is full of shit…and unfortunately, he is not alone.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 24, 2019 at 9:41 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> What does the record show for Saturday evening calls from Willis to Marsh?
There were two times, on Saturday, June 29, 2013 when Darrell Willis used his cellphone to talk with Eric Marsh, on HIS cellphone.
Willis called Marsh ( 928-237-0508 ) at 11:47 AM, and they spoke for 1 minute.
Later, Marsh called Willis, at 6:11 PM, and they spoke for 2 minutes.
That was about 2 hours before Marsh first got the word that Granite Mountain was being ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell the next day, and about 3 hours before Darrell Willis got a similar notification to come to Yarnell… so it’s unlikely their 6:11 PM cellphone conversation had anything to do with Yarnell.
Willis himself told ADOSH, in his first interview, that he had dispatched to Yarnell late Saturday night on the assumption that Granite Mountain would still be working lightning-strike fires on the Prescott National Forest on Sunday.
Apparently ( based on this testimony ) Willis wasn’t even aware that Granite Mountain had already been ‘released’ from the Skull Valley assignment late Saturday afternoon and had already ‘scattered to the winds’ because Sunday was supposed to be their DAY OFF.
Willis further tried to tell ADOSH that he was totally unaware Granite Mountain had been ‘recalled’ on Saturday night, and were going to be at Yarnell, until he called Marsh’s cellphone at 5:52 AM Sunday morning.
Here’s what Willis said ( to ADOSH ) about all that…
———————————————————————————
47 Q1: Darrell, what we’ve been, ah, trying to do is – is have folks, ah, start out from
48 when they got ordered for this particular incident and then walk us through
49 that up until, ah, you actually arrive in Yarnell and – and, ah, and then we’ll go
50 from there I guess. If you could take us back to.
51
52 A: Well I – I can tell you that on – on Sunday morning if I – if I look back, ah, I –
53 they are, um, they report directly to me so whenever they get an assignment
54 they let me know either via text or, ah, telephone call.
55
56 Q1: And you’re talking about Granite Mountain.
57
58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I received a
59 phone call at about 6:00 from Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
60 already deployed on the Yarnell Hill Fire as a Structure Protection Specialist
61 and, ah, he – my assumption was that they were gonna be working on the
62 Prescott National Forest that day. ‘Cause we had a lightning bust that day, ah,
63 Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And they, ah, he ca- Eric called me and said,
64 “Hey we just got an assignment to the Yarnell Hill Fire.” And my comment
65 back to him was, “Good. I’m down here. Maybe we’ll get to work together.”
66 And his comments and this is the last words I had with Eric that day were,
67 “We love to work with you Chief. Look forward to seeing ya.” And my last
68 words to him was, “Be safe.”
———————————————————————————
Again… notice that Willis is trying to make it sound like Eric Marsh called him to ‘report directly to me whenever they get an assignment’… and that this was what Eric was doing circa 6:00 AM Sunday.
But ( as has already been established ) Eric didn’t call Willis.
Willis’ cellphone record shows that HE was the one who called Marsh that morning.
As for WHEN Granite Mountain actually got ‘ordered up’…
It was right around 8:00 PM on Saturday night, almost 2 hours after Willis and Marsh spoke on the phone.
From the “I-Disptach Records.pdf” document in the SAIT evidence record.
An email from Kenan Jaycox, the SWCC Center Manager in 2013,, to SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley, showing GM order/fulfill times…
——————————————————————————–
From: Jaycox, Kenan R -FS
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 4:52 PM
To: Dudley, Mike -FS
Subject: SWCC Granite Mountain Information
Hi Mike, (per ROSS auto-documentation) 3 Type 1 Crew Requests were placed with us the evening of 6/29. One order was placed to Flagstaff Dispatch for Blue Ridge IHC, another was placed to Phoenix Dispatch for Arroyo Grande IHC and filled early the next morning 6/30, and the other we asked ADC to retrieve and fill with Granite Mountain. To give you an idea on timeframes the order for Granite was placed at 2009 ( 8:09 PM ) on 6/29 and we asked them to retrieve at 2015 ( 8:15 PM ), and the crew order was filled with Granite at 2054 ( 8:54 PM ).
Kenan Jaycox
Center Manager
Southwest Coordination Center
———————————————————————————
That timeframe for the GM order generally matches other records in the Dispatch logs.
Such as…
——————————————————————————–
06/29/2013 20:10:07 PMB SWCC
FRANK PLACING ORDER FOR GRANITE MOUNTAIN IHC.
——————————————————————————–
In his SAIT interview, Willis told them he didn’t hear from Russ Shumate down at Yarnell until 9:00 PM on Saturday night…
——————————————————————————–
Russ Shumate ( ICT3 at Yarnell ) called Chief Willis at about 9pm on 6/29 to come help with the Yarnell fire. 2230 on the 29th he arrives at the fire.
———————————————————————————
TO ANY CONGRESSMAN OR OFFICIAL OF GOOD INTENTIONS AND CLOUT WHO MIGHT READ AND UNDERSTAND THE GOOD EFFORTS OF PEOPLE ON INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA —
–With the excellent revelations given here by WTKTT, we certainly hope our friends in Idaho get this information forwarded to the Senators interested in the deficiencies in the Forest Service system of fire suppression and incidences and where Yarnell is the prime example of a mass killing of wild land fire fighters. The real reason has for those deaths has been redacted, hushed and hidden from the public eye and treated as an accident and just a job hazard to be expected in the wild land fire fighting occupation. Nothing could be farther from the truth–this was no accident and there are reasons and people responsible for those deaths.
Now with the expenditure of hundreds of millions of dollars just on a few fires in Montana and Idaho that is almost minor when compared to the recent California fires and how easily people active in the wild land fire professions have been willing to redact, hide information, deny public access to such information including enforcement of mum orders and false representations of incidents- it is clearly time for a Congressional Investigation.
I can witness the struggle that people have had to get to the facts of what really happened during just the Yarnell Debacle. I have seen Joy Collura struggle with getting information and having to go time and again back and forth just to get FOIA reports over delays of more than a year and expenditures of personal money she could barely spare. These reports should be easily obtainable yet we see even retired wild land fire bosses of high esteem–RTS a good example–having to hire lawyers and at a costly expense get FOIA records so they can make a professional assessment of what happened at the Yarnell Wild Fire Incident of June, 2013.
I have physically sat and witnessed an interview that is recorded of a Fire Chief actually lying to citizen Joy Collura about events and his crew’s participation in the Yarnell fire of June 30,2013. The same department refused her access to FOIA information in his department despite his knowing of the laws requiring that such information be available to public and backed by FOIA laws. Her struggle and others that thirst for the information and facts of the Yarnell incident is an obvious attempt to hide the facts from public and professionals who are interested in the workings of the Forest Service and State Agencies associated with them. Apparently the Forest Service and State can not stand embarrassment for their deficiencies and are willing to take extreme measures to cover up any information that might taint their reputations.
It is for these reasons that we the public and other professionals who are continually denied access to the facts of these incidences would demand a Congressional Investigation into the matters related to withholding information from the public.
When hundreds of millions of dollars that constitutes only a small part of the billions of public money being spent on wild fire fighting, then obviously the public funding such expenditure has every right to immediate and respectful access to information related to the use of those monies. Yet a cursory look at how the State of Arizona and its Forest Service Branch and even its local Fire Departments such as Peeples Valley and Yarnell will alarm you about how difficult it is to get any factual records from these people. An interview with Joy Collura, RTS and any other citizen or wild land fire expert will verify that statement. And that is a shame when these people are public servants and have duty to report to the people who pay for their public service.
The facts scream for a Congressional Investigation for a number of reasons. Number one would be how these public servants are so willing to lie to the public and treat people as if they have no right to knowing their actions and information recorded about these wild fires. They are willing to delay and avoid producing records and even willing to cause people to hire lawyers to obtain records. After all if you sue them, it is that forest service that pays the fine, not the individuals withholding the information. Yet if these same people are put before a Congressional Hearing on the matter, they will produce the truth. As you can see they know from such things as the recent Roger Stone incident that you do not lie to Congress or treat them as inferiors as we saw that has been done with public when they desire records by FOIA.
The persons involved in moving toward getting a Congressional Hearing are people of high respect–they have served the country in high capacity and position. We as citizens have high regard for their efforts to represent us in getting to a proper and truthful investigation. We know with so many of the Trump associates being investigated that it may take some time, yet we will patiently wait for this necessary action to get at the truth.
There are five years of ongoing discussion about the tragic handling of the Yarnell Wild Fire of June 2013. Nine out of ten of the people attempting to make sense out of the Yarnell Debacle are professionals with long histories in the fire fighting community. They have been denied access to records and information to the point that some have spent large sums of their retirements on legal fees attempting to get at records and information so they can properly evaluate what went on that killed the 19 young fire fighters known as the Granite Mountain Hot Shot Crew. They know about smoke but never imagined the smoke screen that they would have to navigate through to get any kind of factual information. They have been willing to expend their time, monies and expertise because of their concerns of the welfare of future young wild land fire fighters. Their expertise freely offered is invaluable to the wild land fire fighting community and future welfare of its young and novice fire fighters. They do not want more repeats of the Yarnell killing, and only want to contribute on factual basis. That demands that records be released to them in a respectful and timely fashion. To deny that access to such people is to deny some young fire fighters a safer occupation. We must involve these experience men and informed public –It will save lives of America’s finest young souls..
Tex Gilligan
2:12 PM (1 minute ago)
to Joy
I have been sawing away getting the sink installed into that table. My hunger got me down so I am on my lunch break–I had potatoes roasting oven style above the wood stove but they need some more so I opted to open a can of green beans topped with some butter–damn good especially when hungry. Yes I almost took a picture early. My favorite is Bear–that chubby little fellow comes right out when I come out and heads my way. He is the largest and looks like a barrel so I might have named him Barrel but he looks like a little bear so Bear is fine. The next one behind him is a white one almost as big and friendly. They got their groceries a bit late since I was writing on IM. As soon as they get their bellies full they take a nap–right now still are so as soon as that wears off I will see about a photo.
Sounds like some of the fellows are having some bad health issues. Well I pray they do not suffer more than necessary to get well. It is hard recovering from these things–and somehow I managed without outside help –it was offered but by the time they could assist I was too much improved to accept. I did ask if they could help clean my house and put up some dry wall–no way only help me to the toilet and out of the bath tub which thing was unnecessary once I left the eagle eyes of the trauma unit.
I think this year might bring some closure on the Yarnell situation but there will be more like it so it is an ongoing affair. My own feeble efforts are toward the Yarnell thing since it was up close and personal. We would be wrong to hide our heads in the sand since we both were witnesses and you especially not only witnessed the situation but have spent countless hours researching and interviewing anyone even closely associated with the fire. So your input equals or is greater that just about anyone involved with solving the murder mystery of 19 young souls at Yarnell.
I will post this email to you Joy–I am forever grateful to have worked alongside you and am good testimony to your abilities to get information despite all the roadblocks the Forest Service. State and other individuals have but before you. I say watch your back because people guilty of hiding the truth and putting up roadblocks also smell of treachery.
ON my impression of Willis when I met him at one of the memorial services for the GMHS. He is a man who you could easily like–and I think he was beaten down with a great weight on his shoulders. I felt he was a good person trapped in a situation he either had to conform or loose much and he certainly had much to loose in this one if he went with the truth. He had to go along with the agenda that this was an accident with no blame situation whether he wanted to or not.
It would be a good thing to be a Catholic in these instances–some sort of catharsis by telling someone your secrets that heavily burden the heart. Otherwise some heavy shots of Jack Daniels and a lack luster bar keep might make a good alternative. Much is learned when a little booze loosens the tongue so the best interview with him would be when he visits the bar if he does. With all his God talk I wonder.
What I could not understand though was when he testified for Amanda against Joy under that corrupt Judge. His Christian believes were stretched heavily there. I will say that Amanda had some hooks on individuals–and could make them do things they did not really want to do. Amazing the abilities some people have to manipulate others.
Looks like Verizon is at it again–I pay full price for mobile hot spot unlimited–but they shut the hot spot off at random and generally two to five times during my post. So I try to copy so I do not loose the post. Sometimes that works and sometimes not. So there is a certain hassle.
I know what you mean about the Federal Firearms Act and dealing with suppressed fire arms, full auto, short barrels and the like. I did years ago have a FFL and blued guns where I had a good set up. But the problems of it all of keeping records, etc. I have since just let that lapse. During the Vietnam War it took 24,000 rounds for a kill–well that was how much ammo was shot per dead man. Of course the snipers did a lot better with their kills.
Gary that 6.8 Grendill sounds good if you can spice it on the M-4 and apperantly the government is looking at using it. Usually when they look at a round it has to be with some good reasons. I will have to look at that one. I had been OK with a single shot .223 for rabbit hunts. With a broken up clavicle I am able to shoot that .223–but a little 22 is ok for rabbit anyway. That M-14 impressed me–but then I was used to a 30-30 and in this desert country I did good even out to 500 yards by using a hell of an oversight at that distance. Deer are easy to kill if you hit them right. My son and his neighbor wanted me to join them for a hunt on Deer and Oryx when the season comes up. I declined and he has my .300 Win Mag that I was able to punch a hole in a one inch circle with. Fluted barrel but and Nikon Scope and unusual to get one that accurate with factory ammo. I reload so never was impressed with factory ammo but guns and ammo have improved in recent years. The little bolt action .223 he took would print a 1 inch as well and that was a cheap $300 dollar Remington.
But I think that 6.8 is a defense weapon then, not so much for hunting. I enjoy the AR because of those light kicking 223 rounds. I haven’t gotten the nerve up to try a 30-06 or a 12 guage yet. I am not sure how well I have healed up–but do feel pretty good. I was able to wrangle a couple railroad ties in and cut some others up to make up my kitchen sink. I managed to get the cold water and the drain hooked up today. I look like hell dragging things around with my left arm–but that sink is solid and damn nice looking. Those old ties are about 100 years old so the creosote has evaporated so there is not smell or oil problem and one thing because there are three legs on each end of sawed off ties, nobody is going to pick the thing up and run off with it. I like that kind of rustic thing but it looks good too since I put a nice top on it–and it is exactly 8 foot long with sink in the middle.
Well the .223 is good coyote gun as well but I quit shooting and trapping coyote. I think the damn things are almost human in smarts–maybe smarter than some people I know. When I was trapping was the time I was hauling wood and doing the gun bluing. So when this coyote came up and shit on my trap I felt guilt about my trapping. They are survivors and I have to respect that since I know how hard that can be.
.300 blackout is not a military round….short range use only….subsonic….good for seal team close-up work….won’t penetrate body armor or kevlar helmets
Are you hunting pigs quietly nowadays, Gary?
Joy,
I do not hunt because as everyone knows, I abhor violence in any form and therefore I simply can’t kill anything. Furthermore…I am a vegetarian except I do eat beef 🐄 , pork 🐖 poultry 🐓 and some fish 🐠, but I really don’t like fish 🐟 very much.
I do however, understand that violence is necessary to not only process the beef, pork, poultry and fish I do eat, but it is required to neutralize the enemies of our country. Therefore…I indirectly employ highly trained and specialized teams of professionals to accomplish these objectives for me since I am incapable of performing those tasks for myself.
I am also self aware enough to realize that by implementing these policies in my everyday life, I am not only being disingenuous, but I am a perfect example of the duality of man as best exemplified by Private Joker (played by Matthew Modine) in the director Stanley Kobrick’s 1987 film 🎞, “Full Metal Jacket”.
In this movie about the Vietnam War during the 1968 Tet Offensive and the Battle for Que, Private Joker, demonstrates his distain not only for the war, but for the duality of man by wearing a Peace Symbol on his flak jacket and by writing ✍️, “Born To Kill” on his helmet.
In the following scene, Private Joker is questioned by a superior officer about not only his “Spirit” button, but the words on written on his helmet;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMEViYvojtY
Pogue Colonel : Now answer my question or you’ll be standing tall before the man.
Private Joker : I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
Private Joker : The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
Now…you know I don’t like to discuss bullet ballistics with you because much like Donny in the Big Lebowski, I am out of my element.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AS8X2Qp_6aA
But…I believe you are specifically referring to the .300 ACC Blackout subsonic round and you may not be aware there is also a supersonic cartridge as well. And even though the supersonic .300 ACC Blackout may not be ideal for a battle rifle, it is designed to achieve ballistics similar to the 7.62×39mm Soviet cartridge in an AR-15 while using standard AR-15 magazines at their normal capacities.
In addition, the same rifle can be used to shoot either the .300 ACC Blackout or the standard NATO 5.56 or civilian .223 ammunition by simply switching out the barrels. Which is far more economical than buying an entire new carbine, plus the all important manual of arms remains the same.
And therefore the same rifle, or pistol, if you go with the SIG Sauer Rattler or similar “pistol” (or a short barrel rifle if you want to hassle with the SBR ATF NFA paperwork) can be used in either the surpressed or unsuppressed mode of fire simply by selecting either sonic or subsonic rounds and of course by attaching a silencer to your firearm in the event you don’t want to here a loud bang 💥 when you discharge your weapon.
These configurations would be ideal for home defense if either noise suppression isn’t a factor, or if you don’t want to wake up anyone else in your house while you dispatch the intruder. And even though I do abhor violence in any form, I do think I have been sufficiently indoctrinated, trained and conditioned that I could use violence to defend myself or someone else with a firearm if the threat level justified that level of aggressive response based on the “Threat Level Matrix.”
Now…please stop pestering me by challenging me to defend my positions. I have a lot of important work to do on my tome. And you are interrupting me which is problematic because Sonny is looking forward to reading my magnificent literary work even if you are not.
And tick tock, I don’t know how much time I have left on this earth 🌎 before my veil of tears 😭 will finally be lifted, I’m not Sonny you know! And I believe you are well aware of how sensitive and vulnerable I am to criticism or these continual attacks by you and your pet monkey🐒…RTS. Whether it is you or Bob…RTS just can’t take me on Mano a Mano because he is a known slacker!
We have covered this whole .300 ACC Blackout controversy before, and except for the Serbian Special Forces, no one think your oddball 6.5 Grendel is the next great thing. So.get over it girl 👩🏻🦳!
Oh…and one more thing. Although I did have to go to U.S. District Court one (1) time to defend myself in New Mexico against a bogus accusation of the “use of excessive force”, it was only because there was like…eight (8) of them and only two of us in a very remote area. So we did have to point our M-4’s at them and prone them out on the ground in an aggressive manner.
But…I followed my training and I never put my finger on the trigger or disengaged the safety. So I think those accusations were greatly exaggerated and the U.S. District Court Judge finally ruled in our favor and dismissed the charges. So…
so that one doesn’t really count.
And there was one other time I can remember right now. One time while executing a search warrant, a German Shepard guard dog went to bite me and I put the barrel of my rifle in its mouth. The lady that was there thought I was going to shoot the dog so she threw herself on him. But it was her fault my CAR-15 was pointed at her back, so those deeply flawed charges were eventually dismissed as well. And once again, my finger wasn’t on the trigger nor did I disengage the safety. And those were the only times I was accused of “using excessive force” so…
Well…now that I think about it, oh never mind…I abhor violence in any form, that is the point we should be focused on at this time. All of those other unfortunate incidents are all water under the bridge that we can laugh about now.
Have you GTS’d lately Gary?
6.5 Grendel even out of a 12″ barrel has superior velocity and energy over 7.62×39 and .300 blackout with 16″ barrels
7.62×39 and .300 blackout both drop like a brick after 250 yards…
.300 Blackout….rainbow trajectory….no bueno in a military rifle
6.5mm grendel….or 6.5 creedmore…or 6.5PRC is the future
but the Army will just wait for caseless ammo to improve before any changes are made
Silly Gary…you don’t make money in the stock market by panicking and selling due to a correction.
For any kids here…there is no such thing as Grendel stock anyway…your joke doesn’t make any sense…(cents) except you love love to tease me.
Sonny is excellent shot with a rifle and me….both…Sonny shot that one guy in the neck…how far was it Sonny? Man…that was some rough times…I am out hiking solo out by his opal mine area and on the radio I try to tell Sonny he is surrounded but all he is saying he cannot hear me or the content while they all were moving in from all sides…it was hard to watch so I am trying to go in and I hear bullets whizzing and I drop low and I will let Sonny share his side but the sherrif was Sonny’s next door neighbor and you cannot make this stuff up…some parts of Arizona I would not raise a kid or pet…not even pet monies..named Bob or RTS…hee hee
I am sure when RTS gets back from his DEALIO he ain’t gonna like being labelled with me first off versus being a pet of mine…ugh…
But hey if it helped you to say it…its all gravy
Here is a reply to Joy who does often keep me abreast of the Yarnell situation:
Tex Gilligan
2:12 PM (1 minute ago)
to Joy
I have been sawing away getting the sink installed into that table. My hunger got me down so I am on my lunch break–I had potatoes roasting oven style above the wood stove but they need some more so I opted to open a can of green beans topped with some butter–damn good especially when hungry. Yes I almost took a picture early. My favorite is Bear–that chubby little fellow comes right out when I come out and heads my way. He is the largest and looks like a barrel so I might have named him Barrel but he looks like a little bear so Bear is fine. The next one behind him is a white one almost as big and friendly. They got their groceries a bit late since I was writing on IM. As soon as they get their bellies full they take a nap–right now still are so as soon as that wears off I will see about a photo.
Sounds like some of the fellows are having some bad health issues. Well I pray they do not suffer more than necessary to get well. It is hard recovering from these things–and somehow I managed without outside help –it was offered but by the time they could assist I was too much improved to accept. I did ask if they could help clean my house and put up some dry wall–no way only help me to the toilet and out of the bath tub which thing was unnecessary once I left the eagle eyes of the trauma unit.
I think this year might bring some closure on the Yarnell situation but there will be more like it so it is an ongoing affair. My own feeble efforts are toward the Yarnell thing since it was up close and personal. We would be wrong to hide our heads in the sand since we both were witnesses and you especially not only witnessed the situation but have spent countless hours researching and interviewing anyone even closely associated with the fire. So your input equals or is greater that just about anyone involved with solving the murder mystery of 19 young souls at Yarnell.
I will post this email to you Joy–I am forever grateful to have worked alongside you and am good testimony to your abilities to get information despite all the roadblocks the Forest Service. State and other individuals have but before you. I say watch your back because people guilty of hiding the truth and putting up roadblocks also smell of treachery.
Joy the name of that guy was Robert Long and yes I was intending to take him out and he did catch a bullet from a 7×54 Russian round at 600 yards. That old Russian rifle was open sights but accurate–I tried to run him down with my vehicle but his quad in that rough country disappeared.
But let it be understood those guys had killed a man not too long before this by shooting him in the back of the head. Robert was and probably still is a somewhat leader in the doper set and some kind of loose gang that operates out of Dolan Springs. Three guys had visited me a few nights before when I thought it was my son. I lived alone some three miles away from Dolan Springs on ten acres and the nearest neighbor was a mile away. I knew about the killing they had done and knew the brother of the man that was killed. He was hoping he could get hold of one of their old pickups because he believed they had hauled his body in that truck and he hoped it would have some blood dripped in some crevice to the prove who done it. The Sheriff Department had refused to follow up on the murder but had that mans skeleton found some time later in a vacant lot near Dolan Springs.
Well that night they had come to rob me but I had come out with a 30-30 Winchester in hand and was ready for battle–maybe Irish style cause I sleep naked and this was about 11 PM and considering I usually would bed down when my chickens do.
The next day I tracked the pickup since they had left the road and in the 4×4 crossed country–and of course the tracks went straight to Longs–the pickup was down the street after that to the other rats residence.
Well this guy and his friends were all dangerous as you remember the one I stopped on a motorcycle casing my place you were able to trace as an ex con. He was one of the set–was it Tim that was involved with Long and had actually been with long that night they showed up at my place. Well that time they got that truck in reverse and spun around to exit. I fired a warning shot above the truck to get them going–I had recognized that ford 10 cylinder job from Longs place and it was their criminal activity get away vehicle. Anyway they saw I meant business and wasn’t the helpless old man they had previously killed for his social security check. I learned that part from his brother who told me his brother has just cashed his check the night he disappeared and Long and his buddies whom the man named were the last to see that fellow. He had some sort of alzheimers setting in and somehow was sick enough he would associate with such trash.
So you see I was next on their list. A pickup had burned with a body in it not long before this–and we knew someone who was also involved with these people and when I asked him if he was involved in that he did not give a straight answer-=-but had warned me to take care of the Long bunch some time before. Dolan Springs is a very small town and there was only one watering hole if you were not a veteran–I still have a life time membership there at the American Legion and more often would quench my thirst there but at the Last Chance Bar they often had good music and some good singers at Karioke. So everyone knew everyone there and I suppose I was a type of odd ball since I lived out of town.
So you see I was next on the list but they were hoping to rob me before. Peggy Long who I helped since she had very little and was keeping 9 dogs–heaven knows how many times I bought food for those dogs–but she would go hungry herself before her dogs. She was the ex of Robert–he had attempted to burn her and her kids up on a dope binge and did manage to pour gasoline all over her and though she escaped, he managed to burn the home. That was when they lived in Kingman. Long had done 10 years for that and now was a Dolan resident.
Your experiences were real and the real life at Dolan Springs was not something you expected–and I did not either when I moved there. That was one of the reasons I decided to leave the area–It was just too much trouble dealing with the dopers there.
There was a lot of thievery there and I sometimes think the main Kingman Office was glad to keep those dopers in that small town of Dolan Springs. Don’t get it wrong there were a lot of good people living there as well and likely many of them did not even know of what lurked there. Peggy told me that Robert was an expert locksmith and would enter peoples places and take things they would not miss for a long time. He would then lock it back up and no one was the wiser he had been there. I believed her since he would sometimes come around her place to get things from her–he especially liked to steal her pain meds.
Peggy Died a terrible death of cancer at 54. She broke out in black cancers that looked like spider webs all about her body. The doctors gave her two weeks to live but she lived for a month. I got both her service dogs which were St. Bernards–and kept them–I was there at her funeral in Chloride where only her Mom, Daughter and a preacher attended. I did make her a gravestone–and was saddened by her death.
Some people are brought into this world to try us to see if our hearts are in the right place. With all her infirmities–she could not speak and suffered balance disorder –the dogs kept her up when she was in trouble. People treated her like a pariah yet she was truly an intelligent person that the world had a hard time to show consideration to. Some were kind to her–but I often saw that people had a distaste for people disabled in her way. Maybe because I understand how it is hard for people to communicate with me due to hearing loss, then it was hard for people, even doctors to be patient with a person who had to write everything–and in a script that was hard to read.
Well wouldn’t you know that Long went to the Sheriff on me. I was actually in Dolan looking for Long to let him know the next round his head would be missing. I did not know I had wounded him so there he was on the Main Drag talking to the Sheriff Deputy. The Deputy waved me over and had Long stand away while the Deputy spoke to me. Long was pointing at me and crossing his hands as if I were going to Jail–he had a towell wrapped around his neck. Well the Deputy said to me you screwed up–didn’t hurt that guy too bad. He said now do not say a word to incriminate yourself if you do not want to but this man came at me with a Machete once before and I thought I was going to have to kill him. The Deputy said go on and I will cool this guy off.
That was the last I heard of Long but knew I had to be on guard there all the time. Not a way to live since I love good friends and a peaceful life.
Now you see why I say to cordon Dolan Springs off and make it a Doper Safe Haven. It already is but severaly meth labs were put out of business there while I was living in the area. I think the population is 300–now 299 with me amiss.
And so you know more of that story–It happened more than ten years ago so an old war story–That guy had parked his quad some thousand yards from my place and was sneaking up on me–I would not have known it due to my hearing loss down to 10% available, but my dogs alerted me and by seeing the direction they were barking I spied him. I did fire two warning shots below him and they kick up a lot of dust with that Russian round but I could see he was not at all impressed and kept coming my way–now that is scary–maybe he was on dope but his intentions to be sneaking up were not that good. It was then I saw I had better settle the matter since he had something in hand and I believed what might have been a gun.
Joys story of the machine gun are true–and when she called the Sheriff on that it was not until Sunday–the next day that they arrived. You see you knew you better defend youself because I lived in such a difficult area to reach by dirt road no Sheriff expected to make a call very quickly. I am glad my dog did not shoot me there in that area–I would have certainly never been rescued–but you would understand why the Department of the Sheriff was so slow to respond there if you lived there.
To their credit, they did move a substation to the school itself when some guy came into the school there in a ski mask and badly pistol whipped a teacher who was giving his kid a bad time. Well they never caught the guy nor did they figure out which kid the teacher was beaten for. Deputy Thompson was my neighbor but he lived three miles away to get to his place–but only three quarters of a mile with a mountain between our residences.
Unless you are a doper, criminal or a nice citizen who does not know better, I would not recommend living in the Dolan Springs area proper. It has been over ten years since I have been there but I do not intend to go back.
I deeded that ten acres over to my Youngest Son Jaime–he sold it for five grand–well it was worth much more –or was it. Real Estate people do not always let you know the low down of things.
Joy,
You’re right, I don’t really have any stock, I have all of my money invested in Jeeps. And there are a lot of things about me RTS doesn’t like, hasn’t liked and will never like about me. We are two really different people, although we are also like two peas in a pod. Which is just one more inexplicable dichotomy, contradiction, and wonderful thing all at once about wildland firefighters.
I actually met a lot of people just like RTS in both FIRE and law enforcement over the decades who didn’t think I could do the job because I was too fat. I always got the last laugh though because I was always the last man standing…after they were long gone.
IF YOU WAIT BY THE RIVER LONG ENOUGH, THE BODIES OF YOUR ENEMIES WILL FLOAT BY.” ― SUN TZU
And I don’t believe that anyone will physically hurt either you or me, I think there are some people who have wish they could, but they won’t. I can sympathize with them because I have known a lot of people who I left alive just because it’s against the law to kill them.
But…I do think I will eventually be sued by any number of people I am going to roast alive (metaphorically speaking) in my tome. There will also be some heroes, you and Sonny for starters, but those heroes will also include JD, Frisby, Tarr and Bob because he helped build OUR 🏠 HOUSE (hotshot) and people like RTS and I stood on his shoulders.
And as I have written to you before when you asked me what I thought about RTS? I told you RTS is a hero of mine and I real American Hero because he played a key role of moderinizing and professionalizing hotshot crews while elevativating the profession to be much more than just a tribe of cowboys and Indians riding hard for the brand and shooting from the hip.
It is a profession where once bitter enemies who killed each other on first sight not that long ago in our history can now all ride together with a common purpose like the Santa Fe Hotshots did together to go fight FIRE.
Some of the direct descendants of the Spanish Conquistadors, who at times massacred the Native American people, who at times massacred the Spanish people as they did during the Pueblo Revolt, rode with descendants of war criminals like General Kit Carson who massacred everyone who got in his road to glory and who was guilty mass genocide, especially of Native American people.
I have been told the Navajo word for white people means, “Those we fight.” And yet I sat with a 90 % Navajo audience to watch the movie (Windtalkers) in Farmington about Navajo Code Talkers during WWII. That movie showed the primary purpose of the code talkers white escort was to execute him rather than let him be captured.
They also laughed at things that made me cringe because they were so overtly racist. Like I said, living in a minority/majority culture can really change your outlook on “BUILD THAT WALL” “AND WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR IT?” “MEXICO!!!”
I have seen photos and videos of Naturalized U.S. Citizens who stood in line for decades. None of them are going to pick our fruits and vegetables either, nope…none of them. Either Sonny nor I want to pay $10.00 for a basket of cherries.
Who should we build the wall to keep out…us, my ancestors? Navajoes were also invaders who took and then occupied their land from the Pueblo people. It’s complicated…but all of us put our traditional differences aside and came together as one…the Santa Fe Hotshots.
And none of the Native Americans on the crew ever mentioned the cruelty of Juan de Oñate y Salazar who was responsible for the Acoma Massacre and we had young men from Acoma and many other Pueblos on our crews. Although in 1998 I was back in New Mexico when someone cut off one of the feet on his statue as retaliation for his cutting one foot off every young man over 25 who survived the massacre.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_de_O%C3%B1ate
Like I said, life is complicated and if I don’t get sued for this book I am working on…then a lot of people I am writing about just aren’t keeping up with current events. Either that or they are betting I will never get the damn thing done, and they might be right?
And I do want to make it easy for their process servers to find me. Process servers are just working stiffs to who make a few bucks for every one they had out. No sense in making their lives and harder than they already are. I am going to do my very best to roast all of the usual suspects alive…just like our crew got roasted alive.
Anyway Joy…I want them to focus on me…not you. I am their worst nightmare, or at least I am trying to be that for them. The threat level you pose to their continued happiness is non existent to the threat I pose to their “Big Lie” I hope. They should leave you alone and mess with me instead because…HERE I AM…in a static position.
Do me a favor and post what I wrote to you about RTS a long time ago.
Gary, I Certainly am waiting on that book–and you have good posts to read as well. If I were not so banged up I might after all have thought to try wild land fire fighting after all the education I have received here on IM. I hope the young fire fighters read these posts–pearls of wisdom here for that work and how to survive in it.
I suppose you are referring to the ability to switch the AR-15 from 223 to the .300 you mention by switching uppers on the AR-15 lower. That can be done in a heart beat–but why a new round if it is the same ballistics as the 7.62×39 AK round? Is that .300 the same diameter .308 as the AK round? That 7.62 round is pretty good since it is about the same punch as a 30-30 round.
I think likely the best round if you can handle the kick is the M-14 in the .308 Winchester if you talk civilian. It is only a hundred feet or so under a 30-06 round and good for 1000 yard shooting. But in the real world with people that never used rifles, the .223 would do fine–I do not know how many gooks fell to that round but many I would guess–maybe more than the 7.62×51 Nato of the M-14.
If Trump really wanted to make this country greater-(it is already great ahead of him and his talk)–then he would require every household that is not a doper or criminal set up to have a weapon such as the AR-15 in the home. He would further require that people become familiar and learn to shoot and use the damn thing. Something that should be locked in a gun cabinet but available with about 300 rounds of ammo. That would be a deterrent to not only criminals but outsider who might want to invade this country. Switzerland has that type law in effect and even Hitler, who would have loved to had all the gold and other values stashed there, thought that it would be too costly a situation to attack early on. Of course the mountain ranges also protect it but paratroopers could have invaded. Add to that the Russians that invaded Norway–those crack shots took out six Russians to one of their own–simply because people in those countries have rifles and are well trained on how to use them.
Yes I know Aquarius–we are the world–and how Nationalism is a crime these days.
Reality is a different situation when you look at how things are done in the Arabian and African countries. Don’t kid yourself–they would dearly love to clean house in America and genocide is quite rampant in those countries even going on very recently. Old Jesus was correct in Luke when he said you ought to sell your cloak and buy a sword. Hopefully we won’t have to kill someone in our own defense or especially for the ones we love but it is wise to have a deterrent handy.
I understand Gary–I am not much of a meat eater either and I don’t enjoy killing even rabbits. But the chemicalized dog food that the poor dogs do everything not to eat requires a feast for them. I see the excitement in people to go hunting but I do not have that. I had to survive as a youngster even into my high school years by taking game. Killing for the fun does not appeal to me nor do I want dead carcasses hanging about my walls. Something I hate to see is elephant killing–seems like a horrible crime to destroy such magnificent creatures.
And back to the subject of Willis–He suffered heavily at the loss of those men and from the beginning I always believed he had something to do with ordering them down in the canyon. However he has selective memory I notice and all we can do is fill in the blanks. And there are plenty of those–so we wonder why the FS and State agencies not open up all so that his name if it can be cleared would be–if not then we are talking about the lives of 19 young men–a disgrace should the truth continue to be hidden through redactions and threats to careers.
Another thing we need to know is what the secret ingredients in the retardant are.
I do not trust people that redact and hide so much to tell me oh these are good for your health. Automatically, I know the main ingredient is a lung killer–so why hide the rest of the poison.
To give an example, the black lung has had a big outbreak of over 2000 cases. The big coal companies had it whipped with new methods so they said. It turns out they are working thin seams of coal and getting the silica dust along with the coal. The companies knew the situation but money comes before health of the worker with those big organizations. I hope the victims get well paid–young men in their 40’s now unable to even hike across a Wal Mart parking lot. Your FS and State want to keep their budget to pay the victims of these fires down as well. They recently spent over a hundred million on just two wild fires if you read that Harper’s article–yet screw you wild land fire fighter–you better have your own health insurance and if you get killed your family might get enough out of them to last a year. Talk about sacrificing to the Fire demigod–and Yarnell was a prime example.
Sonny,
Yes…in order to meet the military specifications for the need for a new cartridge to eventually replace the NATO 5.56, which most experts have always doubted, they must be able to replace the current barrel in an M-4 in less than 10 minutes without the use of tools. This allows the military to dual purpose the hundreds of thousands of M-4’s in their current inventory at a very low cost. And by being able to use the .300 ACC Blackout with either the subsonic, or supersonic cartridge, in addition to the standard NATO 5.56 all in the same rifle by just switching out a relatively inexpensive barrel, this in effect allows the military to UPGRADE to the same ballistics as the 7.62×39 AK round. In addition to being able to suppress both the flash and noise signature of the same gun by switching back and forth between either the subsonic or supersonic .300 ACC Blackout. So they WERE NOT able to achieve the perfectly acceptable ballistics of the AK round without making this conversion. I guess I didn’t explain that part very well. I don’t really know that much about it, I just know those SIG Sauer Rattlers look really Bitchin’ with the SIG suppressors on them. I owned a top-of-the-line military grade Gemtech suppressor that was fitted to one of my AR-15’s that had an M-4 upper on it and without subsonic .223 ammo, the damn thing was still loud enough to wake the dead. So I said, why bother? And so when I moved to Arizona I vitutally gave it away to a Class III dealer rather than go through the ATF paperwork hoops, which include months of waiting to transferr it to another state and the approval of the local sheriff. I said that was it for me, no more NFA restricted firearms or parts. There are just too many restrictions on them and too much paperwork and you have to give the ATF automatic permission to enter wherever you have listed for the damn things to be stored and conduct a proctology examine on you at any time they feel like it. And God help you if you are out of compliance in any way…with up to 10 years in federal prison and a huge fine. You have GOT to be a real gun nut 🥜 to want the cost and hassle of dealing with short barrel rifles, shotguns, suppressors, fully automatic assault rifles or sub machine guns. That is why SIG Sauer turned the Black Rifle world upside down and became a juggernaut in the firearm business when they invented the MCX family of guns. Somehow they completely eliminated the spring and buffer tube that has been the hallmark of all black rifles since Eugene Stoner invented them back in the 50’s. And as you know, that buffer tube and spring takes up all of the room in the telescoping stock of AR’s. They are completely taking over the Personal Protective Services and military special operations fields with that MCX platform by eliminating the buffer tube and spring altogether…somehow? They are putting five inch barrels on those things and they fit into a kids small backpack, it’s crazy. The other problem with the NATO 5.56 is that it performs very poorly coming out of any barrel shorter than 9 inches. So the fact that all other black rifle variants have the buffer tube and spring, and you needed at least a nine inch barrel, plus the fact the round can’t really be suppressed, made the AR-15 “pistols” okay, but nothing that can compare to what SIG has done with the MCX. Oh…and the .300 ACC Blackout performs very good coming out of a 5 inch barrel. And by calling it a “pistol” and putting a “forearm adapter” that doubles as a stock on the butt, they are in effect making a fully functioning assault rifle in an unbelievable small package that completely circumvents all of the federal regulations meant to keep that kind of a weapon out of everybody’s hands. It may be technically a violation of ATF law and regukayptions to use a forearm adapter as a shoulder stock by firing it from the shoulder, but ATF hasn’t tried to enforce that open question yet and probably never will, how could they? They have made a pistol into a short barrel rifle with the ballistics of an AK -47 coming out of a 5 inch barrel with no stock to speak of. And the bullshit forearm adapter that is really a stock folds FLAT against the gun itself and part of the military specs, said the weapon had to be fully functioning and be able to be fired with the “stock” folded in. And the thing uses the standard AR -15 magazines that can hold between 20 and 100 rounds of a pretty big caliber that shoots heavy bullets with an effective range that can be used on a battlefield. It’s NUTS! Just wait until somebody strolls into a movie theater with a fully suppressed SIG Rattler stuck down their pants with a 100 round magazine. They will kill half of the audience before anybody even realizes something is wrong, But…I do want one, do you know of any good 12 step programs for black rifleaholics? Hi…my name is Gary and I’m a black rifleaholic. HI GARY!
In other words…I just lost my ass on all of the 6.5 Grendel stock I bought based on what I thought was Joy’s expert opinion and recommendation. I put in a “sell” order today to my broker and it went for pennies on the dollar to somebody in the Balkan’s….I think they were in Serbia? Thanks Joy!
Oh…and one more thing. “I do not know how many gooks fell to that round but many I would guess–maybe more than the 7.62×51 Nato of the M-14.”
Also, Sonny, “Gook” is not the preferred nomenclature. “Vietnamese.” please.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OYOzUHnPJvU
Pet monkey?
Bob Powers? RTS?
How strange.
Gary, Fall 2017 when I was vlogging I sent email to Holly on topic of her and she replied on way off topic so I did public records and learned alot
I alerted the person
When reviewed what I have been gathering RTS said I deeply protect the data and it is an ordeal and he has conferences and presentations and I was welcome to join to learn verbiage and he got me in training areas to learn verbiage but neither Bob Powers nor RTS would fit that label and I am sure RTS and Bob Power’s significant other may not like that label tied to me.
As far as the gun topic…that began Sonny and my six year in person pioneering adventurous trails…ballistics and religion
I know I would not trail with anyone…when you learn what I have from Sonny…not one person can top his rawness.
Joy,
Yes, what part of “Bob and RTS spent years tag teaming me with their non existent Oak Grove Hotshot Brotherhood” don’t you understand?
And if THE Woodsman had not jumped in to help me more than once, I would have been in much worse shape at the time than I was.
Now…as far as you and RTS tag teaming me, here is one example and I’m not going to spend any more time finding others, one is enough to make my point.
Robert the Second says
DECEMBER 27, 2018 AT 8:42 PM
Gary,
“You’re a girl and you can’t fight back…can you?” Are you kidding me?
Looks like she is doing a pretty good job and holding her own just fine
And as far as RTS being your “Pet Monkey 🐵, here is one example of that as well, because once again, one is enough to prove my point.
Robert the Second says
JANUARY 21, 2019 AT 11:43 AM
The above is courtesy of Joy A. Collura’s amazingly insightful Yarnell Hill Fire website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) at the respective post link below.
AMAZINGLY INSIGHTFUL?
And don’t look 👀 now, but you just made the person who is certainly one of the, if not the most respectful and patient people who participates here on this thread completely run out of patience with you…TTWARE.
And as far as Bob’s significant other goes, I doubt if she would appreciate you bringing her into this discussion by telling me what she would or wouldn’t like.
If she does has something to communicate to me about my attitude, positions, views, or choice of words, I have never hidden my identity from anyone including when I was living in Flagstaff for two or three years while expressing the same views and opinions I expressed now.
And at the time, I had no plans to move. And in Flagstaff, my address was a matter of public record, just as it has been in Washington for the last three years.
And I have always made my email address (that isn’t a straw or ghost address either) public information here on this thread so anyone can tell me, or call me anything they want. I have very thick skin. It came from the great honor I had working for the American people for thirty years as their HAMMER 🔨 and doing the jobs for them, they couldn’t do for themselves. And for my reward, they have kept their promise and they are taking care of me now because they wore my body out.
But…my mind still works okay, more or less, so I am still trying my best to help the American people find out why one of their highly developed and high-speed low-drag, best of the best, wildland firefighting machines experienced a catastrophic failure on the YHFD? And as of yet unexplained failure led to the complete destruction of their very expensive machine and the destruction of too many lives to count, or we will ever even know of because it will have a negative impact on people who haven’t even been born yet.
Nothing at this point in my life matters more to me than that mission. And if I still had the police powers the American people trusted me with for 22 years and their support through the U.S. Attorneys Office…I would have given them all of the answers years ago.
And as I have said before, that is my permanent email address that I have used for many years before I ever started participating here on this blog and will continue to use for many more years to come.
As far as where I am at right now, here is my physical location right now for the next three months or so. But if anybody wants to fuck with me, I would suggest they bring their A Game. I am the wrong guy to fuck with because I am highly trained and conditioned to “Finish The Fight.”
“The Rogue River Inn is located just six miles south of Grants Pass, Oregon on the beautiful Rogue River. The recreational and scenic beauty of southern Oregon is sure to make your visit a memorable one. Rarely will you find an area offering such a rich environment for both relaxation and fun. Enjoy the great natural beauty surrounding you during your stay. The river challenges you with its many opportunities. Exciting jet boat excursions, dinner cruises, guided and unguided raft trips, hunting, fishing, picnicking and sightseeing are available. The Rogue River Inn’s location allows you to enjoy both the river at your door step as well as the other adventures in the area. Crater Lake and the Oregon Caves National Parks are fascinating natural wonders sure to amaze you. Historic Jacksonville, an early mining town, will take you back in history. The world-renowned Ashland Shakespearean Festival offers entertainment much of the year. The Britt Summer Music Festival offers a variety of musical styles presented by top national performers. Wintertime recreation includes snowmobiling, cross country skiing and downhill skiing at Mt. Ashland. Come stay at the Rogue River Inn and see it all! “
I will update everyone when I get to Moab, I will be really easy to find there because I will have the best looking Jeep in town. It is bad to the bone…just like me and it’s a really small town. Just stake out the only Taqueria in town and I will be there sooner rather than later.
And as far as your website goes, I have gone through it, but I didn’t find one fuckin’ insightful thing on it. It is pretty well done and I can appreciate the time and commitment you have spent working on it, but insightful? Nope…not in the least.
And as far as you “playing both sides against the middle and stinky finger with everyone, all at once”, I got over that a long time ago and it is way past time for you to put up or shut the fuck up.
You knew where you lived when you started going down this road. Your position as to why you can’t share what you know, is about as ironic to me as someone who would kills their parents and then asks for sympathy because they are orphans.
And so far, if you have revealed anything new or insightful on this thread in the past five years, I am completely unaware of what that might be? Someone will have to remind me of your contributions here beyond your photos and personal observations on the day in question.
So…I dappreciate your personal observations and photographs from the day the crew died, but as far as anything else that gets me where I want to go…you have been and continue to be a huge disappointment.
Now…what part of, “I’m not here to make friends or add to my Christmas card list” don’t you understand?
My ONLY interest here is to find out why our crew died on the YHFD. And as of right now, you are part of the problem rather than being part of the solution. And that isn’t helpful to my mission.
And as far as Sonny goes, he used to work in the same underground mine my father was killed in. Nobody loves or respects Sonny more than I do. There is a bond between us that can’t be broken. But…if my father were participating on this thread today, I would tell him there are a few words no one should use. One of them is the “N” word and another one is the “G” word. And I would tell him that because I love him.
Do you have any more questions? If so, I won’t be answering them…I have cats 🐈 to kill and fish 🎣 to fry and I ain’t gettin’ any younger.
Oh…and one more thing. RTS wrote a long time ago that he would never even have given me a chance to make it as a hotshot because I was too big and too fat for his liking. And that I would est to much and drink to much water.
Lucky thing for me, I never had to ask him for a job, because I asked U.S. Forest Service Fire Management Officers Ron Melcher, Hub Harris, Richard Allred, and Orlando Romero for jobs. And they all believed in me and I never let any of them down, or made them regret they gave me a chance and for that, I will always be grateful to them.
And later on, U.S. Forest Service Santa Fe National Forest FMO Ray Page and his Assistant Forest FMO Les Buchanan saved my career and gave me a second chance, and I will always be grateful to them as well.
ou would be a formidable enemy Gary. I think you would take after your Dad–I could see he was a fearless type–but then just about all those old miners had to be on the fearless side or crazy. There were no bars held to get to that Uranium ore–and they considered lives expended for the good of the many was the means justifying end. If you get hold of the American Ground Zero book, the author when discussing the population down wind and taking fallout from the Atom Bomb Testing at the Mercury site out of Las Vegas, the AEC memo described the area as a “low use segment of the population”. That quote is out of the first page of the prologue. It gives you an idea of how these people can justify if they happen to be on the high end of the food chain. Most of those that got dusted were in the Mesquite, George Town and Cedar City Area of Nevada and Utah-mostly Mormon populations that their leaders have them accept shit like that since everything boils down to a God thing. Willis would make a good Mormon. Listen, I have a sister that is Mormon so I know a little about them–and I used to hit the bars with Benny Fenn out of Mexico–well he was a jack Mormon but he told me later he quit drinking and I suppose quit women, wine and song as well.
I knew how hard it was to find miners but I also knew how expendable we really were. You earned your money but you were also subjected to situations and risks that ordinary people would not even consider doing. As Willis said, no ordinary citizen could navigate the manzanita but the GMHS wild land fire fighter could march right through it. He also gave us a clue as to how expendable the low man on the totem in wild land fire fighting is expendable. Certainly after he is killed he gets high honors and great recognition–even if the act was totally negligent and needless with the bosses killing the men. Certainly the young men and I consider 17 of them heroes by intentions but with default in training and understanding of how to fight a wild fire–they certainly had no fault–but the two men that took them into the situation had plenty fault. I from the beginning thought Willis had ordered them down there or had something to do with it. That is not totally proven but he has selective memory and did some things that would not jive with someone ready to reveal the real story of why those men did the unthinkable and the motives and reasons the whole affair was made into a giant hero worship program.
I know you will tell it as it is–something the world needs to know and reading your posts tells me the book will be a very good read. And I stand corrected the use of Vietnamese is proper now a days. Whew I am glad I don’t walk on water nor live in a glass house.
This world has a lot of phoniness–and I am getting to the place of being intolerant with it. Sometimes I wonder though if I am not tilting at windmills and as crazy as Don Quixote de la Mancha.
Yes, I assume my father had courage because he volunteered to join the Marines when he was old enough during WW II and he served in the South Pacific. He also worked in high risk jobs that didn’t involve much paperwork like helping to build the Alcan Highway and other roads in Alaska when it was the Territiry of Aleska, (The Great Land) the Land Of The Midnight Sun and The Last Frontier.
And unfortunately, underground uranium which as you said at the time was considered a national priority and was critical for our nations defense so they could build lots more atomic bombs in case the Soviets got frisky.
And as you know it was an industry where safety for workers was considered a low priority because hiring replacement poor whites (no offense Sonny) Spanish, Mexican, and Indians men was cheaper and easier than implementing strict safety protocols.
Just like today in the current underground coal mines because after campaigning as a champion of coal miners, Donald Trump picked Wilbur Ross for commerce secretary who was a New York billionaire and who owned a West Virginia mine where a dozen miners were killed in 2006 and then he had to be forced to pay out any kind of benefits to their families.
Ross, also engineered buyouts that cost workers their benefits and their jobs. It’s was a striking choice, considering Trump’s promises to improve the lives of coal miners and other working-class Americans.
Ross made his money collecting “distressed assets”—failing steel and textile mills in the Midwest and South, and coal mines in Appalachia. Dubbed the “the King of Bankruptcy,” Ross cut jobs, wages, pensions, and health benefits at the companies he acquired, and reaped the profits.
Ross is also the man who doesn’t understand why federal workers
who were recently not being paid had to stand in soup lines or go to food banks. He thought all of the U.S. Forest Service employees who voted for Trump so just go to the bank and take out bridge loans against the wages they were owed.
FUCK President Donald Trump and all of his very rich friends and supporters, I hope YOU PEOPLE get it now, or do you need to be hit over the heads with another 2×4?
And FYI, my father was a Squarehead from surprise….a Swedish family of farmers in Nebraska, My history with the Mormon Church came from my mothers side of the family.
I don’t really know why that term was used as a derogatory slur against Swedes, but we can add it to the list of no-no words like the N word, the G word but we will all know what we are talking about when we use the “S” word.
Or you can just go ahead and call me a Squarehead because I have thick skin.
2And FYI, my father was a Squarehead from surprise….a Swedish family of farmers in Nebraska, My history with the Mormon Church came from my mothers side of the family.
I don’t really know why that term was used as a derogatory slur against Swedes, but we can add it to the list of no-no words like the N word, the G word but we will all know what we are talking about when we use the “S” word.
Or you can just go ahead and call me a Squarehead because I have thick skin.
Whoops
Sonny,
you were typing religion to Gary
did you see this:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/laughingindisbelief/2019/01/italy-arrests-cardinals-and-seizes-vatican-city/?fbclid=IwAR1SxJGXaBu_13Y_nBOI1VFPG7vQdmIzK1V0VlEeXT697F9aEwOnaE8YodQ
—————————————————-
Maja Mastroic
12 hrs
January 17, 2019
Rome, Italy – Italian law enforcement arrested scores of Cardinals early yesterday morning. The Italian military shortly afterward swept into Vatican City. The Italian parliament voted overwhelmingly to merge Vatican City into the city of Rome, effectively ending Catholicism’s reign over the city-state.
To Catch A Predator(s)
Italian law enforcement worked for months to launch a sting program on the pedophile clergy that made up Vatican City. The operation was codenamed Spotlight after the 2015 movie about clergy sex abuse scandal in Boston, Massachusetts.
Inspector Anthony Canard is the commanding officer of Spotlight. “Everyone knew Vatican City was the center of an international pedophile ring,” he stated. “We sent busloads of orphans into Vatican City for the annual Cardinal Convention. Long story short? The kids were never in harm’s way, and we nabbed a lot of perps.”
At that point, Vatican City was still an independent country. Italian police had to smuggle the Cardinals out on the bus to face criminal charges in Italian courts.
Catholic clergy overseas is quick to point out their peers who are under arrest are victims of a virulent strain of anti-Catholicism and hatred of the man-boy sacrament.
Once Spotlight ended and the pedophile ring jailed, the Italian government moved quickly. Local units of the military swept into Vatican City. “We were sick and tired of looking the other way,” an anonymous politician noted.
Swiss Guards were caught unaware. It was obvious their pointy pikes were no match for assault rifles. The invasion was bloodless. No one was injured.
At this time, the Italian government isn’t sure what it’s going to do with all the wealth the papacy built up over the centuries. Insiders say many buildings will be transformed into museums. Other assets will probably be auctioned off and given to survivors of clergy abuse. “It’s poetic justice,” one government official remarked, “and the pedophile priests just got slammed with poetry.”
—————————————
Tex Gilligan
10:46 AM (0 minutes ago)
to me
Quite a story Joy–that is only part of the corruption that led the Jesuit Priest Malachi Martin to leave the priesthood–Latin American Jesuits were backing Sandanista’s and Castro’s Communism and building hate against this country. While it is true that wealth distribution is skewed in every society, Marxism is not the answer. The Jesuits in Nicaragua that were backing Marxist ideas forget that although his intentions and methods actually much parallel the teaching of Jesus, the fact remains that it turns into Communism where Dictators end up executing and imprisoning millions of lives just as we saw early on in Russia.
In addressing the Catholic child abuse-that is quite an amazing story and who would have believed it was that rampant in the Priesthood. Well they got their deserves. Child abuse is one of the most heinous crimes because it scars the psych of that child for life. That child is left with mistrust and fear issues forever. So yes, I would hope they get their just deserves and long prison terms for what they have done and death sentences might be in order in many cases. However, it is hard to believe that there are a number of good priests that had no knowledge of the situation. There is always an inner group in superior positions that keep the lower echelons uninformed. It goes on in just about all these religions–for instance the Mormon church,Baptist Church, Jehovah Witness, and name just about all have a select group that is considered the only privileged access to God. If you get into the select group you are guaranteed a fast ship to Heaven when you pass over. I have to smile at how the public eats this crap up–but sometimes the inner circle is exposed for what they are–as in the Catholic situation of child molesters. Yet the principles and moral issues taught are generally good things and separate to charlatans acting as Priests. I know many good Catholics–my daughter is one and believes and works the principles as they should be. And my good friend Jesuit Father Burns was no child molester–something you would sense by being around people and their actions toward children.
But here we are looking at a parallel in the fire fighting industry. Over time a select group has continued to present their organization as a wholesome group of people, who with their authority, would only give the public the truth. In fact with so many redactions, half truths and lies they challenge the running for the prize of the cover ups of the century that has now been exposed in the Catholic Church. Corruption is in vogue these days.
But we take heart–there are plenty of good firemen and citizens working to clean up the sins of the system. They know their efforts will not go unrewarded. Even if little is changed inside the system, there will be many that are educated by these good efforts and lives will be saved and the peace of closure by the truth will help the loved ones.
I do wonder how our good friends in Idaho are faring toward getting a Congressional Investigation going concerning the tactics being used to cover the deficiencies in the fire industry that have been causing so many wild land fire deaths. If that happens, we certainly have plenty of expert witnesses to inform, expose and improve the system.
We have on Investigative Media the Jesuits akin to Malachi Martin and others willing to stand against Ladon, the hundred headed dragon. So Ladon has come against Hercules since the system of deceptions has been challenged by the good people of Investigative Media.
There are of course many people in the System that are in sync with the truth but are attempting also to keep their livelihoods intact, yet doing the right thing by feeding information out to those willing to challenge the hundred headed dragon.
Investigative Media is fighting fire with fire.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 22, 2019 at 10:41 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Sidenote your sidenote: do you remember what Willis claimed in interviews concerning
>> communications between himself and GM and/or Marsh on June 30, 2013?
>>
>> I’m asking you because what would take me days to find
>> probably only takes you 10-15 minutes. Thank you
>>
>> Exact words if you’re able
In his ADOSH interviews… Darrell Willis stuck to his story that he only had one cellphone call with Eric Marsh that day ( at 6:00 AM in the morning ), and, that he had NO CONTACT with Marsh or ANY of the GM Hotshots ( via radio or cellphone ) at ANY time for the whole rest of the day.
According to Willis’ cellphone records… Willis DID try to call Eric Marsh later that day… following the deployment when everyone was just trying to locate them… but it was around 4:55 PM and Marsh was already dead.
From Darelll Willis’ FIRST ( of TWO ) ADOSH interviews, on August 19, 2013…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = SPGS2 ( and Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) Darrell Willis
———————————————————————————————————-
58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I received a
59 phone call at about 6:00 from Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
60 already deployed on the Yarnell Hill Fire as a Structure Protection Specialist
61 and, ah, he – my assumption was that they were gonna be working on the
62 Prescott National Forest that day. ‘Cause we had a lightning bust that day, ah,
63 Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And they, ah, he ca- Eric called me and said,
64 “Hey we just got an assignment to the Yarnell Hill Fire.” And my comment
65 back to him was, “Good. I’m down here. Maybe we’ll get to work together.”
66 And his comments and this is the last words I had with Eric that day were,
67 “We love to work with you Chief. Look forward to seeing ya.” And my last
68 words to him was, “Be safe.”
398 Q1: Yeah. Did, ah, did you have any radio conversation with those guys up on
399 top?
400
401 A: Just heard them. I didn’t talk to them at all.
402
403 Q1: But you could hear them? You could hear them up there. There was no
404 problem with the communications from where you were up to that direction?
405
406 A: Not at all. Not at all.
407
408 Q1: Okay.
475 A: And I don’t know what, you know, I l- after that 6 am phone call, um, that I
476 got from Eric, I don’t know what else…
477
478 Q1: You had no more communication with him?
479
480 A: A little bit. Scanning tac. But I got so busy.
481
482 Q1: So you were listening. You weren’t actually talking to him.
483
484 A: Right. I listen a little bit but it got so busy on this end.
485
486 Q1: Right.
487
488 A: That I just flipped that off and just scanned my stuff.
489
490 Q1: Okay.
491
492 A: It was too much radio traffic.
493
494 Q1: Yeah.
———————————————————————————————————-
From Darelll Willis’ SECOND ( of TWO ) ADOSH interviews, on October 10, 2013…
Q2 = ADOSH Lead Investigator Marshall Krotenberg
Q3 = Jon Paladini, Prescott City Attorney who accompanied Darrell Willis
A = SPGS2 ( and Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) Darrell Willis
——————————————————————————————————–
595 Q2: We just have, you know, we got your phone records…
596
597 A: Mm-hm.
598
599 Q2: …cell phone records. And there was four phone numbers that we didn’t – we
600 weren’t able to identify who they belong to. And I wanna know if you maybe
601 can help us with that. It was a – if they’re work-related.
NOTE: Willis then takes his cellphone out and identifies the four numbers
as Tony Sciacca, Cory Moser, Todd Abel, and Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo.
As soon as that is done, Willis tries to ‘joke’ with them about what he is
calling “conspiracy theories” regarding him possibly having “coached them ( GM ) down”…
617 A: So you didn’t get the, uh, conspiracy theory that
618 others have said that I coached them down, huh?
619
620 Q2: You know, you – we’re in an interesting, uh, position with, uh, you know, all
621 the parties have tried to lay all those things.
622
623 A: Right.
624
625 Q2: Let’s just stick to the facts.
626
627 A: Yeah, sure.
NOTE: Suddenly… Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ( who accompanied Darrell Willis
to this second ADOSH interview ) pipes up and says…
629 Q3: You know, when you’re a prosecutor, eh, you’re – there’s a saying, it’s not
630 what I – it’s not what I know, it’s what I can prove.
631
632 A: Right.
723 A: And I, you know, I’ve been – I’ve been second guessing myself about this.
724 But I don’t believe I had any other conversation. I – I don’t believe there was
725 any other contact by phone that day with him. Um…
726
727 Q2: Any – any other crew members?
728
729 A: No, no. I know there wasn’t any radio conversation. But, um, I am 100
730 percent sure that there was never any other conversation with them, other than
731 in the morning.
———————————————————————————————————-
I will privately reach two of you this answer
working on it now for you.
I have that documented answers
Please post whatever you can HERE, in this thread, so that everyone can read it.
That’s helps everyone.
unable to do that-
sorry I live here.
I just emailed you the content
if you need more let me know asap so I have to before dark get the document back to the FF…thanks
Keep in mind, wtktt
I also attend school here
where some were my instructors teaching me the fire industry
they also were on the YH Fire
so please keep the whole package in mind and get your ass off your seat and come in person and go over the data yourself some day with me
or get your own FOIAs and public records asking for the same or try and see if they will gave you the same they gave me.
Thanks but no thanks to placing certain stuff out.
I live here.
Also how would Amanda like to see her texts and emails publicly, wtktt?
I got them in public records so does that mean make them public to show the world how she wrote Jeff Whitney over time?
I have alot of data
I will need enough notice though because it is spread quite a bit everywhere at this point…I do not keep anything with me or at any place I stay…that is because I do not trust the world…I grew up in tough spots but none as tough as the one here gathering data and being trained in an industry that teaches to identify themselves first if they are a man or a woman….that is the kind of stuff being taught..true.
Hey Woodsman-
if WTKTT comes when Norb goes – will you come too…will that get you to come?
Maybe gizmo will show up too-
One thing I cannot stand is a damn liar. No contact my ass……..he was monitoring the God damned crewnet frequencies. I knew it because I’ve become much better at breaking Joys coded messages. He heard Marsh & Steeds last exchanges we were discussing because someone else overheard it on his radio. No. Contact. My. Ass.
Yarnell Fire Dept FF volunteer- Leonard Hunter of Yarnell Arizona told Tex and myself that when it came to the final moment he stated Willis was near his truck with Moser and another (cptn or Moser was the cptn?) and he stated that noise came from his vehicle but they were not discerned to the content at that specific moment but Woodsman I sent you the phone records content. If you need later than 6pm let me know-
For the world- I will name some off the list-
Jason, Dan, Clay, Todd, Roy, Bea, Jesse, Whitaker, Dugger but no to any Marsh on that list on June 30 2013. That does not mean it was not redacted but that is what I got.
3:34/14:40 Willis states they monitored the radio frequencies from the John Dougherty video GMHS Shelter Deployment Site
Go to this link ( https://youtu.be/J1lBgicPq5A )
Willis said “… we were able to monitor the radio frequencies that they were on … ”
Pretty clear to me
was this a Verizon line?
(928) 237-0508 was ? on the list but based on this comment it was Eric so there you go….
https://www.investigativemedia.com/chapter-iii-for-comments/#comment-9040
JANUARY 19, 2014 AT 12:40 PM
**
** THE NIHC LISTS PUBLIC CELL PHONE NUMBERS FOR
** ALMOST ALL HOTSHOT CREW STAFF… INCLUDING ERIC MARSH
Not only is/was the NIHC listing a cell phone number of (928) 237-0508 for
Eric Marsh as his primary contact number on their PUBLIC NIHC contact list…
…the NIHC also maintains another PUBLIC document that has that same cell
phone number for Marsh… as well as just about every other NIHC Hotshot
crew leader or boss.
It even has Brian Frisby’s cell phone number and the cell phone numbers
of other crew leaders that were in Yarnell that day like Globe Crew, etc.
THIS IS A PUBLIC DOCUMENT!
No secrets here. Anyone can just ‘Google’ it.
If anyone on this list doesn’t want these cell phone numbers being
published then you need to contact the National Interagency Hotshot Crew
organization.
Here it is…
http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dispatch_logistics/dispatch/mobguide_non_secure/pdf_files/2013/8_Chapter_60_2013.pdf
Chapter 60
Crews, Overhead, and Specialty Positions
Position Code Listing of 1 Overhead Positions
For a complete list of all IQCS recognized position codes,
refer to the following Web site ( website address is listed )
Crews
Type I/Interagency Hotshot Crews
—————————————————————————————-
Crew Name, Unit, Superintendent, Cell Phone Number, Home Base
—————————————————————————————-
Black Mesa AZ-ASF Frank Auza (928) 245-8652 Overgaard, AZ 7
Blue Ridge AZ-COF Brian Frisby (928) 606-1026 Happy Jack, AZ 8
Carson NM-CAF Rich Sack (575) 741-0522 Taos, NM 9
Flagstaff AZ-COF Bill Kuche (928) 606-2438 Flagstaff, AZ 10
Fort Apache AZ-FTA Brian Quintero (928) 205-9459 Whiteriver, AZ 11
Geronimo AZ-SCA Julius Hostetler (928) 961-1451 San Carlos, AZ 12
Gila NM-GNF Dewey Rebbe (575) 574-0468 Reserve, NM 13
Globe AZ-TNF Mark Babieracki (970) 946-4800 Globe, AZ 14
Granite Mountain AZ-AZS Eric Marsh (928) 237-0508 Prescott, AZ 15
Ironwood AZ-AZS Greg Smith (520) 343-0718 Tucson, AZ 16
Mormon Lake AZ-COF Matt Caouette (928) 607-4166 Flagstaff, AZ 17
Mt. Taylor NM-CIF Cathleen Lowe (505) 401-1471 Grants, NM 18
Navajo AZ-NAA Johnson Benallie (928) 205-9989 Fort Defiance, AZ 19
Payson AZ-TNF Mike Schinstock (928) 595-0320 Payson, AZ 20
Pleasant Valley AZ-TNF Patrick Moore (602) 509-8021 Goldfield, AZ 21
Prescott AZ-PNF Darin Fisher (928) 713-1307 Prescott, AZ 22
Sacramento NM-LNF Matt Barone (575) 921-9266 Cloudcroft, NM 23
Santa Fe NM-SNF David Simpson (505) 231-4831 Santa Fe, NM 24
Silver City NM-GNF Pete Valenzuela (575) 313-2114 Silver City, NM 25
Smokey Bear NM-LNF Rich Dolphin (575) 937-4875 Ruidoso, NM 26
Zuni NM-ZUA Myron Sheche (505) 870-8892 Zuni, NM
etc…
etc…
Reply to joy a collura post on January 23, 2019 at 8:02 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> (928) 237-0508 was ? on the list but based on
>> this comment it was Eric so there you go….
Yes. That is/was Eric Marsh’s cellphone number on June 30, 2013.
That has never been a secret and has been published here in this ongoing discussion many times.
That ‘Crew Information’ document up above is no longer available online… but Eric Marsh’s PUBLIC cellphone number is still available from other sources.
One is the NIFC’s own official PUBLIC 2013 list of Type 1 Hotshot Crews complete with PUBLIC contact information.
Here is exactly how the NIHC contact information for the Granite Mountain Hotshots looked on June 29, 2013…
———————————————————
Granite Mountain IHC
Prescott Fire Department
501 6th Street, Prescott AZ 86301
Duty location for crew: Prescott, AZ
Eric Marsh, Superintendent
Email Eric [email protected]
(928) 237-0508 (Cell)
Jesse Steed, Captain
(928) 777-1707 (Office)
(928 928-777-2483 (Fax)
———————————————————
That document is STILL available online at the following link…
https://web.archive.org/web/20130629015429/http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_list.html
** THE MORNING CALL BETWEEN WILLIS AND MARSH
John Dougherty ( of InvestigativeMEDIA ) obtained all of Willis’ cellphone records a LOOONG time ago.
He received all calls for the entire MONTH of June, 2013.
He also verified ( a LOOONG ) time ago… that Willis did NOT make ( or receive ) any cellphone calls to/from Eric Marsh in the hours just prior to the deployment.
The only calls were the one at 4:59 PM, when Marsh was already dead, and the conversation Willis and Marsh had at 5:52 AM that morning.
Below is the formatted information from Willis’ cellphone record for HIS 5:52 AM call TO Eric Marsh.
Willis was already in Yarnell ( the ‘Origin’ of the call, according to the cellphone record ) and Marsh was still up in Prescott ( the ‘Destination’ of the call, according the cellphone record ).
—————————————————————
Date: 6/30
Time: 5:52 AM
Number: 928-237-0508 ( Eric Marsh’s cellphone number )
Rate: Off-Peak
Usage Type: N&W
Origination: Yarnell AZ ( FROM: Darrell Willis’ phone, down in Yarnell )
Destination: Prescott AZ ( TO: Eric Marsh’s cellphone number, up in Prescott )
Duration: 4 minutes
—————————————————————-
Willis told both the SAIT and ADOSH ( repeatedly ) that it was Eric who called HIM that morning… but as the cellphone record above shows… that is NOT TRUE.
It was Willis who called Eric, at 5:52 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
For those that are unable to discern when someone is not being truthful:
“58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I received a
59 phone call at about 6:00 from Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
60 already deployed on the Yarnell Hill Fire as a Structure Protection Specialist
61 and, ah, he – my assumption was that they were gonna be working on the
62 Prescott National Forest that day. ‘Cause we had a lightning bust that day, ah,
63 Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And they, ah, he ca- Eric called me and said,
64 “Hey we just got an assignment to the Yarnell Hill Fire.” And my comment
65 back to him was, “Good. I’m down here. Maybe we’ll get to work together.”
66 And his comments and this is the last words I had with Eric that day were,
67 “We love to work with you Chief. Look forward to seeing ya.” And my last
68 words to him was, “Be safe.””
Do I have to run all of this down for everyone or is it obvious? Hopefully the latter because this gets tiresome. Really, Mr. Willis? Come on….
woodsman stated:
“58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I received a
59 phone call at about 6:00 from Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
also to make clarification- his (Willis) cell phone records either were redacted because I only have after 2pm so I awhile back put another cell request in another way and it is pending but that was for ALL including many others. So on the cell at this stage Eric was called at 4:50 then Steed but oddly I wonder if Whitaker is the same lawyer I mentioned on here long ago that Yarnell Resident Paula told me to hire him and his office stated they could not due to conflict of interest because they had a client. Interesting. Paula was his paralegal at one point.
“As soon as that is done, Willis tries to ‘joke’ with them about what he is
calling “conspiracy theories” regarding him possibly having “coached them ( GM ) down”…
617 A: So you didn’t get the, uh, conspiracy theory that
618 others have said that I coached them down, huh?
619
620 Q2: You know, you – we’re in an interesting, uh, position with, uh, you know, all
621 the parties have tried to lay all those things.
622
623 A: Right.
624
625 Q2: Let’s just stick to the facts.
626
627 A: Yeah, sure.
NOTE: Suddenly… Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ( who accompanied Darrell Willis
to this second ADOSH interview ) pipes up and says…
629 Q3: You know, when you’re a prosecutor, eh, you’re – there’s a saying, it’s not
630 what I – it’s not what I know, it’s what I can prove.
631
632 A: Right.”
Hmmmm. Interesting. I can translate this exchange easily. When an interviewee volunteers a topic it’s best to let them run with it. In this case, the supposed conspiracy theory that he “coached GM down” off the hill. …………hmmm, go on…….
Another red flag is the mood changes through stress, relief, into humor. This occurs at the statement of the interviewer has obtained the phone records (stress), interviewer shows his hand in unidentified 4 phone numbers which the interviewee provided (relief), to finally feeling comfortable enough to switch gears and joke with the interviewer about a ridiculous conspiracy theory that he played a role in GMs move. The interviewee went from uncomfortable to very comfortable believing his deception is working and has reestablished control of the situation. Trust me, fire chiefs are accustomed to being in control.
Additionally, it was a classic maneuver for counsel to intervene when his client is about to screw up.
These 2 interviews were very strange. There is obviously much hidden information about the YHF that is known by many.
I don’t know if I can handle re-examination of Cordes or Abels interview for a few days now. I need to clean up after this one.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2013/07/08/behind-the-scenes-preparations-for-the-granite-mountain-19s-memorial-service/#comment-18882
Tom Story says:
Tom Story says:
July 9, 2013 at 1:55 pm
I believe that the Phoenix FD rig is one that has the electronics to connect/convert commo on one frequency and broadcast it on another. It can tie all the different agencies together without having to go through each one’s dispatch and have dispatch call dispatch. Sort of a multi band/multi channel repeater site.
Was this mobile repeater rig setup to record? Maybe I can finally get the A2G transcript this way.
Something I wrote a couple days ago and could not post–So I see my own frustration and anger at the situation that has happened before in fires including Mann Gulch, Storm King and many others the professionals here could name–likely close to a hundred incidents that have killed wild land fire fighters yet the situation is treated as an accident and with non nonchalance to keep the boat appearing clean.
Mon, Jan 21, 9:45 PM (2 days ago)
to me Did you conclude that this was a mass homicide orchestrated by Marsh and others mitigated in their association by circumstance. The sad part is that the deaths approaching 200 of Yarnell and Peeples Valley residents are not included in the count. I suppose guinea pigs are not valued as highly–and I am one of them. Do not forget that I fell dead only a few months after the Yarnell fire right outside the Cardiologist office 5 minutes after his and his trainee’s exam. I did not get to the nitro bottle in time. Six heart stints later I still have not kicked the bucket except the one time Charlie, my dog, shot me in the back. That was a real death according to my son–people do not live after loosing 6 units of blood and having a hole through the back that broke three ribs punctured the lund then destroyed my clavicle bone and now with the lead shot scattered though my chest area–still breathing life.
I just think the retardant companies are as dangerous as things like cigarette companies that will lie to you. I do think that there should be a memorial to the Guinea Pigs of Yarnell with honors–I don’t like being a guinea pig–especially if I was not informed that I was on the list.
Marsh and Retardant Companies and those that spread that shit on people–You all deserve what you did to the people you harmed. Well Marsh got his along with Steed for obeying him–but there are others–I would include those hiding the truth–their silence will be the cause for more future deaths.
About correcting non nonchalance? but that should have been nonchalance only but you know–they just did not want to bother looking at the situation–lets get this investigation done and the way we want it presented–clean and in the no fault category as always.
Did you see this question Sonny,
days?”
January 17, 2019 at 11:18 pm
Do you think there is any existence for our souls after death? You do have a PhD in Religion. Do you think there was something at the end of the tunnel light, or were those just the last neuronal firing of your dying brain ? Just curious what you think since you has a near death experience?
Gary, death experience with the heart attack was blank. When Joy took me off life support on that one, I was angry–so where I was must have been OK.
But this deal with the shot gun blast in the back, I bled out. My son says I had lost 6 units of blood. His experience 12 years as a RN working in an emergency unit he is pretty knowledgeable. He said you are dead at the loss of 5 units. But I did not die until I was on that helicopter and almost to El Paso and was conscious watching the ground below that seemed to be in slow motion. At the point of death I began to see neon colors in a polygon form much like a window shape of a Ford Pickup. At the same time I had the sensation of going down a tunnel but it was not a pleasant sensation and one I was trying to avoid. So I went out probably ten minutes out from the University Trauma Center that is on the other side of Mt. Franklin. Mt. Franklin is the large mountain right north of El Paso–something the copter would have had to fly around. So I had to have stayed conscious for about an hour because the Sheriff Department and ER people had to drive out about 30 miles from Las Cruces with about half the drive on dirt roads, some of it rough.
Your question as to was I seeing anything at the end of the tunnel–no I was only seeing the sides of the tunnel–a pinkish red color and that feeling I was flying down the tunnel–not a pleasant experience on my part.
Do I believe in an after life–your guess is as good as mine. Some have said they saw angels or Jesus–I did not and maybe because I blacked out too soon. I do believe there are higher powers–and of course I am well versed on the 66 books of the Bible and there were actually more that were considered heresies such as the book of Thomas. There of course are even older texts than the Bible and the thousands of clay tablets that have been unearthed talking of the flood similar to the way the Bible presents it at a later date.
Sadly religion became corrupted and I personally believe the real Jesus–the hybrid of God and man or a God and man was nowhere near what people preach today. Seems he put out a simple way of life that only to do with moral issues–something none of man has been able to be perfect at–maybe some have come close but none perfect.
I have been reading some of the Malachai Martin books lately. He is passed now but had been a Jesuit Priest–and he exposes much of the corruption involved in the Catholic religion. Some of the things he investigates including the Fatima thing were witness by hundreds–leave us wondering what is really going on involving life and death.
Something in all religions–and seems to be a given in any organization put together by men–religious or secular. Humans just seem to be in the habit of corrupting things–something that is not amiss in the Arizona State Forest System. But these organizations are set up so there is no blame if possible–or the organization cab be forgiven if they can find a scapegoat.
People –even nurses say Sonny, God did not want you dead–you have more to do. I say what? Well I have been building a kitchen sink with railroad ties and keeping myself in fire wood. Beside that I took in a dog I did not know was going to have puppies and so now I have not four but 11 canine friends. So seeing the puppies and new life makes me happy and whoever has the pleasure of owning these when they are old enough to give away will also have the pleasure of seeing the cycle of life.
After my son died, he came to me in such a vivid dream it was more like reality and in vivid color. We walked together along the Chilean coast on a highway. He lost a cap off the side of a ledge along the highway and in a place where no one could have gotten it, yet when I looked back because he had delayed, he had retrieved that cap. I could not understand how he did that. Then some a rush of automobiles came at us more than four abreast on that wide highway. I told him to watch out and i managed to get between cars as they passed –but he was in the direct path of them–The cars passed and there he was as good as ever. I was amazed.
So did he come to give me a last visit before he went off into the heavens? I certainly hope so because as it really appears, we are not physical beings but spiritual beings residing only for a short time in a physical body.
The evil I see in in situations such as where my son was denied his full life–and in cases such as the Yarnell incident. These are human deficiencies that caused these deaths–not a God calling these men off their deserved time to live life to its fullest. The continued evil is to not recognize the truth instead of putting remedy to the situation and giving the facts to the public and especially those loved ones that suffer so greatly. More of that type evil will continue as long as it is not exposed for what it is.
That is why you are such a great person in my book–you lay it out as you see it and are not afraid to speak the truth. Of course that goes for all the people that contribute to JD’s site and want the system improved for those young ones that follow in their footsteps.
I am not an atheist–there is something more–but even the greatest minds have yet to give us an inkling of the real thing. Paul himself being an apostle stated we see but see as if we are looking though smoked glass–very dimly. And Gary–You being a wild land fire fighter know that experience.
Your book will reveal much–something we look forward to.
Thank you Sonny for taking the time to answer my question with so much thought as you have given me much to think about since I finally have the time and interest in my life to contemplate what comes next.
And you are the closest thing I know to a Super Hero who can’t be killed, just like both the pro and anti antagonists in the movie “Unbreakable.”
And FYI…it looks like they are coming out with a prequel 20 years later…”Glass.” Sometimes I like to think of myself as Unbreakable? Unfortunately I know it’s not true in my case, it’s just a mind game I play with myself to help me climb one more mountain as a grunt and ground pounder.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/glass_2019
I also continue to appreciate your support for me to continue working my book, which has a new title by the way, “Our Fire Gods Betrayed Us And Broke Our Hearts.” (photos of the new book cover to follow).
As a reminder however, my tome won’t contain any facts or even any thoughts that I haven’t already expressed here on the thread since I consider this blog to be the official Court of Record for the deaths of our crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
And it’s very important for everyone to have access to all of my innermost feelings and thoughts while I overshare in a timely manner without being required to wait for me to actually get my book published. Everyone just have to do their own winnowing…that’s all.
I am however…trying hard to extract and logically organize those facts and thoughts (my own as well as others) into an easily readable format from all of the distractions on this thread, much of the chaff of my own making. But as you know, it’s part of the process and you can’t produce seeds without chaff…that’s just the way life is. 🙂
And as I have said before, I can’t take any credit for my willingness to write the truth as I see it because much like you, I have reached a point in life I have everything I need, even though I don’t have everything I want, because there is always one more damn gun, knife or TJ to lust after!
I mean…have you seen the new SIG Sauer MCX Rattlers chambered in a .300 AAC Blackout, also known as the 7.62×35mm cartridge (I know it’s not as good as that oddball round Joy and the Serbian Special Forces favor) outfitted with an NFA Title II suppressor from the SIG Sauer SRD762 line of suppressors? OMGosh!
And I do understand that most people can still be punished by the System, otherwise known as the Evil Empire. And of course hurt (even if it’s not physical) by the people who make up the System, its auxiliary support units like the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra (Our Thing), other enablers and NOCS (Non Official Cover Operatives) like Amanda etc., and her posse of accomplices, thugs, and unwitting (witless) supporters.
CHECK IT OUT!
http://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/suppressing-the-sig-sauer-mcx-rattler/247619
I wrote that wrong, “Unbreakable” is the prequel to, “Glass.” And IF you haven’t seen “Unbreakable”, you should rent it before going to see “Glass”, because, damn…
Oh…and one more thing.
MCX stands for, “Not Just Another Black Rifle”
Ok the correct use of the word “gook” –those were the bad guys dressed generally in black that had Ak’s and would blow your head off if you did not shoot them first. Vietnamese referred to the friendly side–and we did import many Vietnamese into this country. So if you called a gook a Vietnamese when you were enlisted in the military in the 60’s you might have wound up with a minimum of a black eye or even worse considered a Jane Fonda–Whose photograph you will find on a rubber mat in the mens Urinal to this day. Visit the American Legion at Yarnell if you want to piss on her image and undoubtedly in many other Veteran’s organization urinals. Lots of veterans were dying in that war while she was waving off a Red Army Tank and taunting our troops.
I realize the difference in meaning and certainly it sounds like a racial slur–but any Vietnamese that has intentions on killing you or your friends is still a gook to me.
The war is over–well Police action–we lost. We did not belong there in the first place but many of us at that time thought we were doing the right thing even if we were drafted. I would not hesitate to defend this country if that were what we needed to do. But of course those are now my opinions–then we believe the war was out to stem Communism. I don’t know what resources we were really after–there is some Tin Deposits there—but as far as I can see following the French up on what they could not do was a great error that caused a lot of needless deaths on both sides.
But if you are engaged to a Vietnamese fine–I have no objections to good people in any race. However the professor I had that was teaching Statistics at NMSU could barely speak our language–I did remove myself from that class and was accused of being prejudice because I was a veteran. People sometimes assume too much. My kids are half Mexican. Yet some people take offense at being called Mexican–they prefer Spanish. If they are born in America then they would be Mexican Americans if their predecessors were Mexican–yet they sometimes are offended by the word Mexican. Latino’s or Spanish American is fine if that is what you prefer. But Mexican American might be more appropriate. My kids are not offended by their Mexican heritage–call them part Latino if you want but they are Mexican and Irish blood.
By the way I am half black–my mothers maiden name was Black.
It is a matter of definition–no offence to the Vietnamese who are not gooks but I will still use the term gook in proper context–though I understand we have settled our differences to a degree and generally the Vietnamese people have forgiven our interference to their affairs and killing their soldiers and we have forgiven their killing of thousands of our soldiers.
Thanks Joy–If anyone is an expert on the Yarnell Fire Debacle–you rank A+.
I had to put a chunk of wood in the stove–it is at freezing point right now and I have a light in the dog house and it is enclosed so that bulb keeps those huskies warm–they seem to like the cold weather better than the hot–but a little warmth is good for the puppies.
I was thinking about the millions spent on the Yarnell Fire Debacle and the future of Yarnell. Joy interviewed someone about the previous fire that I believe happened in 1965. I do not know if there were injuries or loss of property at that time. but fire in that area will be a continuing problem.
The retardant, though harmful to humans and fish is a high grade fertilizer. There was a great amount spread all around Yarnell so that the next crop of manzanita ought to really be splendid. Since it may be years before another fire developes, much will be forgotten–in fact few people there even knew there was a fire in 1965 that threatened Yarnell.
But we do know about a million was spent on building memorials, trails and parking lots to get to where the site can be visited and viewed from above. That adds to the millions spent in the useless attempt to put the fire out to save Yarnell. But how much has been spent to build a buffer zone around Yarnell. It will be needed because sooner or later the town will be faced with another extreme blaze. And as will happen, people will forget and about the only homes saved will be those that maintain the buffer zone that people like to call defensible space.. When I hear that word I think of machine guns mounted and rolls of barbed and consantine wire around the perimeter–not cleaned out brush. But have it your way.
Indeed the bulldozers need to be in there now doing their defensable space around Yarnell and Glen Isla, not later once the fire starts. So the a million or so will be doing the stitch in time to save nine. It is doubtful to happen since memorials and parking lots are more important to the public view and sentiments. So the town will likely burn again and your best hope if you live there is keep up a defensible space or at least some home insurance.
To Ben Palms credit, at least when I was a resident, he would help people that could not afford or were too debilitated to do the buffer zone. So you might call upon your local fire department to help you keep things safe.
Sonny-
around 3 minute mark is the guy we searched for
Mark Danielson but go ahead and listen again to the video
since you have bad hearing put closed captions on…k
https://youtu.be/c75JUb3pKpY
4:32/12:38- can you name the Federal employee helping Mark Danielson drive his other vehicle out (the red vehicle)…Mark was in white truck earlier in the video.
Prescott National Forest ( USFS ) employee Jason Clawson.
He is the one wearing the white helmet.
The other PNF employee with the beard ( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) calls him ‘Jason’ any number of times in this video.
This is also one of the Hulburd videos with known start/stop times.
At +2:32 into the video, PNF employee Aaron Hulburd ( the one filming ) actually looks at his watch and SAYS “It’s 1650”. ( 4:50 PM ).
Even though this “New video released of deadly Yarnell Hill Fire (3)” has been around for a while, it sure seems like there is a lot less redacting on this one ,,, or is it
( https://youtu.be/c75JUb3pKpY )
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476668 )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 22, 2019 at 11:07 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Even though this “New video released of deadly Yarnell Hill
>> Fire (3)” has been around for a while, it sure seems like there
>> is a lot less redacting on this one ,,, or is it
Nothing new.
This is just an identical copy of the original Aaron Hulburd M2U00266R video.
What still remains interesting, however, is that THIS is the video where Aaron Hulburd himself says to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell that he had been ‘recording everything’… and he also says that he ONLY “turned it off” for “2 to 3 minutes”.
That statement from Hulburd still doesn’t match what was ‘released’.
If Hulburd had only ‘stopped for 2 to 3 minutes’ from the time before the deployment going forward… ( to 1650, which is the time he makes the statement ) there should be a LOT more video footage than what has been publicly released.
exactly the point
try and get records there though-
years ago one would get no response when trying
try again another time and reply would be due to blah blah blah…all records were destroyed….
I still believe it is possible that when it comes to these Aaron Hulburd videos… that USFS really did end up releasing everything they had RECEIVED from Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd…
…but they had ALREADY been ‘edited’ by Aaron Hulburd himself.
That would explain why there is no EXIF metadata information in any of the video clips that USFS released… which means those clips were NOT the ORIGINAL binary copies from whatever device took them.
Maybe USFS never actually HAD any ‘original copies’, either.
Hulburd may have decided ( himself ) what he should let go of… and did all the ‘editing’ himself and only gave up ‘copies’ of the videos and NOT the ‘originals’.
Maybe only Aaron Hulburd could say, for sure, whether what USFS released is…
1. Everything HE gave them.
and/or
2. Everything HE actually filmed that day.
Aaron-
you reading the above
that made me smile–
Aaron, had to make u smile too
;Yes and what developed on that Mark Danielson case? He was likely a good witness to interview if you could ever reach him. Remember we found some bloody levis that looked as if someone had been stabbed in the leg–there were cuts through the levis. We called the Sheriff and you learned a bunch about the fire while we searched the area near the jeans with those deputies.
And there were those bones we found down the canyon where I had hiked one day to Stanton then back over the mountain back to Yarnell for an all day hike. They had told us they were animal bones yet they had numbered every spot a bone was found with spray paint. You know it was strange since it was a secluded area and there was an abandoned tent and kids toys scattered about. I later though what kid would leave behind his toys like that and why were they scattered? But we never got much information back on that situation.
Lots of mystery around Yarnell–lots of fire mystery as well–we had rumors that the second fire–Tenderfoot fire had one of the fire fighters leaving the area the day it started–was that ever proven or just a rumor like they thought the Rancher started that one?
https://youtu.be/daSkRlQ2AfE
check this out Gary and Woodsman
the hybrids wearing shorts in training
did you catch there video starting motto: “He conquers who endures.”
And YH Fire Lawyer Jon Paladini teaching the folks about open meeting laws
I am very proud of the “integrity” of Tom Steele and ViciLee Jacobs
I challenged the State of Arizona for a specific reason last Fall
Jeff Whitney- out
Sue Black- out
let’s keep the investigations rolling
hope “integrity” is used in the investigations across the State.
https://youtu.be/FCHDyYKsvfA
Maybe Peeples Valley Fire Dept Chief Bob Brandon can learn from Prescott Lawyer Jon Paladini so hope you watch it Chief 😉
😂
What’s your point Joy? Entirely different than YH? ?
I thought the videos of them in shorts was funny because all I am taught is long sleeves and pants and so I have been doing that so when I saw FFs training in shorts to go into a faux burning building in shorts I was like????
Joy,
That video simply portrays a structural firefighter physical agility hiring test. NOT a practice firefight, training, or anything else, for that matter. The reason they’re wearing those clothes is so the one’s who might not be in good enough shape to pass, don’t overheat and go into cardiac arrest during the test (which has happened, by the way).
Wildland firefighters do their pack test in a similar manner, without being bogged-down with tools, helmets, gloves, and heavy attire.
Quite often, one having just a little bit of education can result one missing the big picture, as was obviously the case here.
Should have said, “. …one having just .a little bit of education *on a topic*, can result………..”
well I am being trained as a wildland firefighter not yet a structural and they make me so far do navy seal core training and want me to run 1.5 miles in less than eight or nine minutes.
I am at the beginning stage and never claimed to be a knowledgeable person in the field
but I can tell you about weather and ice art and cooking in a more kind constructive way then to knock down a rookie as to say it is obvious…
I bet I can obviously tell you more in person about the Yarnell Fire better than any person that was probably right there because I have been told that right from the folks who were there…that I could do…
I own up to where I lack in tools- I just felt it was funny that the training is done in shorts but if that is how it is done than so be it…I would not wear shorts…I would condition myself in normal gear and train in that fashion and I will…
I don’t follow the normal if you wear shorts – I will
I follow safety and wearing the gear I normally wear and slowly conditioning myself that way seems right for me.
I guess you missed the entire meaning of my comment. While in your response, you repeatedly call it “training”, what they are doing IS. NOT. TRAINING! ####There is a BIG difference####
What I said was:
“That video simply portrays a structural firefighter physical agility HIRING test”. (emphasis added)
What I also said was:
Wildland firefighters do their pack test in a similar manner, without being bogged-down with tools, helmets, gloves, and heavy attire.
You said: “but I can tell you about weather and ice art and cooking in a more kind constructive way then to knock down a rookie as to say it is obvious…
It sure sounded like you were trying to knock down those structural firefighters in an unkind way when you said: ”
“I thought the videos of them in shorts was funny because all I am taught is long sleeves and pants and so I have been doing that so when I saw FFs training in shorts to go into a faux burning building in shorts I was like????”
Joy, I have no doubts about your ‘street-creds’ regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. I also don’t doubt your sincerity and pureness of heart in regards to seeking the truth of that event. But, I’m at a point in this 5-year process where my BS meter is in full operational mode, so when I see someone who says they put forward only facts, then turn around and put out some misinformation, I call BS, it’s as simple as that.
As you said in your reply: “well I am being trained as a wildland firefighter not yet a structural”
But, you still made the comment you made regarding “structural firefighters”.. That is why I implied at the end of my comments that having a little bit of information can quite often lead one to think they know more about something than they do.
There was no name calling nor ill will intended in my post.
Reply
okie dokie
I am short fused nowadays
and I figured I was aking that way when my “uncle” called me out too- I was not “getting it”—
No bashing for me on hybrids or structural-
I have been training for them all including smokejumping so I was bashing the shorts because I have been training up that you dress during training like you do on the line so someone is training me different is all
and I get the BS mode meter
I want to so BLURT out stuff
I do
I keep following the Wildland guidelines of someone people respect a lot in the industry and some of this all just is not me or I do not want it or something because lately my attitude down right sucks.
Sorry to you and all.
I feel I am trying to cover too many areas
But I am working on posts today
It is frustrating because I had so many done and they vanished and also when I turned my pc on it did not ask for a password and it never does that so it got me thinking the place I was training someone is messing with my stuff while I was asleep so been trying to get to stop being so paranoid.
I have been feeling like forget this all but I know we are almost to the finish line…. 2019 20 … 19.
No worries, no apologies necessary. We are ALL just trying to get to the finish line against all odds, it seems.
By the way, since the YHF, you and I have met along the way.
Cheers,
TTWARE
https://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/features/opinion/item/32016-our-perspective-cyfd-directors-vicilee-jacobs-and-tom-steele
We take our responsibilities very seriously. We are troubled when important financial information is not discussed publicly so that there will be a degree of transparency in the operations of the Central Yavapai Fire District on which we serve.
https://www.signalsaz.com/articles/new-and-returning-fire-board-members-sworn-in-vicilee-jacobs-resigns/
ViciLee-
we as a community are sorry for the personal areas and you resigning
we are praying for you
we also pray the investigation is being held with integrity because many outsiders are watching.
Sonny,
Part 1
Thank you for revisiting the information specifically about the boulder field in this comment;
January 21, 2019 at 7:50 pm
because asking you to do this very thing is on my “to do” list. I am using what you have said in this comment while quoting you to counter the argument by the Evil Empire that has always said what HAL 9000 repeated by paraphrasing their position here;
January 21, 2019 at 1:51 pm
“You know… bullshit such as…1. The reason they had no alternative other than deploying is because they ‘saw fire ahead of and behind them, up at the saddle’ at the same moment.”
But they never said fire was to their other flank towards the boulder field. And all of that is beside the point as far as I am concerned. Nothing…and I mean NOTHING…trumps the argument that if the area you are thinking about deploying a fire shelter in is so small it you can’t possibly survive by doing so…you must RUN and at least die on your feet fighting.
Now…i don’t know when the following first appearance on the NIFC website, but I saw it a few days ago while randomly clicking around and doing casual research on fire shelters, which I commonly do while researching all kinds of random things I want to know as research for my tome.
Part 2.
BUT…this is the FIRST time I have seen the Evil Empire offering up a position that is different than the fire shelter policy I have been railing against for more than five years now, which is the gross exaggeration of the benefits and overselling while hyping the advantages of deploying fire shelters. This is what is on their fire shelter page today, in part;
“As always, the fire shelter is the last line of defense when facing a fire entrapment, escape is always the highest priority. Fire shelters will not guarantee a firefighter’s survival in an entrapment situation. Firefighters should do everything they can to avoid situations where they need to deploy a fire shelter.”
https://www.nifc.gov/fireShelt/fshelt_main.html
Gross exaggerations, overhyping and overselling fire shelters is what I have maintained they always did from the very first day fire shelters were introduced to us grunts and ground pounders on Day 1 to overcome our deep distrust of and institutionalized hatred of the entire fire shelter concept as an overreaction to “Shit Happens.” Especially when firefighters fuck up really bad and listen to idiot asshole overhead (See the YHFD when the GMIHC did what idiot asshole Div. Alpha ordered them to do).
Now…my argument regarding this specific issue is nuanced, and nuance is something that is hard to communicate in a writing format, but I am going to try because this will be a key element in my book.
I am not criticizing or “Monday Morning Quarterbacking” why the rank and file crew members didn’t try and RUN anywhere, rather than stay where they died individually because that isn’t how hotshot crews are trained and conditioned to react to any given situation.
In general, crew members follow the lead of senior crew members, senior crew members follow the lead of the squad bosses, and squad bosses follow the lead of the Captain (Assistant Crew Boss back in my day) or the Superintendent (originally Crew Boss back in my day, the transition to the new title was made during my time, but I never liked that title because it is used for “Building Superintendent” or “School Superintendent” etc, and I always liked the old school title of “Crew Boss” because that accurately and simplicity of how it described the job…just FYI, like so many things, this alone is a nuanced fact).
Which brings me to the next nuanced part of this entire issue. And that is the long running discussion (bitter argument) between RTS, Bob and myself regarding whether a hotshot crew is made up of 20 free thinking and unique individuals who all coalesce at any given time around a common goal or idea.
Or…is a hotshot crew a highly and specifically developed wild land firefighting machine made up of cogs, wheels, springs, and other moving parts which includes the crew boss, who all act together as one except when they are broken down into squads or even smaller modules that can and do function independently for specific missions such as small lightning fires or helping an engine crew with a big hose lay by humping heavy rolls of hose and brass fittings up the mountain.
And that entire argument boils down to where and with whom each of us was indoctrinated into the micro hotshot culture within the much wider parameters of the macro hotshot culture.
RTS was initially trained under Bob on the Oak Grove Hotshots on the Angeles N.F. in California (R-5) and I was trained under Amos Coochyama on the Happy Jack Hotshots on the Coconino N.F. In Arizona (R-3).
And within the hotshot culture on the Coconino under Bill Buck and even our District FMO’s, (everyone knows this old argument which goes back to almost Day One) if the hotshot crew boss say’s it’s Easter, the crew immediately starts looking for 🐣 🥚, regardless of what the date actually is. While on crews like the Oak Grove Hotshots, everyone checks their pocket calendars (in the old days) or iPhones today and corrects their crew boss on regarding what the actual date is.
And then they hold s crew meeting to discuss the issue and decide if they want to assign the matter to different committees for study immediately, or table the it until they get back to their duty station for further review.
And then they take a break to give each other back and foot massages (which isn’t an homophobic slur…it’s a SoCal slur) and use their iPads to schedule their goat yoga instructor to meet them in fire camp for an emergency session to relieve the undue stress their crew boss introduced into their lives by yelling at them and telling them it was Easter when it really wasn’t, you know…Easter.
Oh…and tell also use their iPads to contact their union rep and file an emergency grievance on USDA-FS form EATSHIT-9901.5 (B. c., Revised 1/1/19) “Hurt Feelings Report.”
But…in the spirit of reconciliation and as an overture to my peers (although RTS has no peers, he is a legend with his very own category in the pantheon of legendary hotshot crew bosses like Charlie Caldwell of the Redding Hotshots of old) I have modified my description of what a hotshot crew is.
Oh…and by the way, I always thought the Redding Hotshots were grossly overrated because they were nothing more than 20 prima donnas and even the lowest grunts in their organization were somebody special from their respective sending units. No one on that crew thought of themselves as ground pounders or grunts, including Caldwell (he doesn’t even know who I am or that I didn’t like him or respect his crew, but I’m settling an old score today) back in the day. They all thought they were future Type I Incident-Commanders-In-Waiting (and some of them actually were…assholes).
So fuck the Redding Hotshots and the 🦄 they rode to fires, you know…rather than write, “Fuck the Redding Hotshots and the HORSES they rode in on.” You know…because the Redding Hotshots thought they were so special they rode in on rainbow colored unicorns…get it?
Anyway…IF you want the other side of this argument, which if course isn’t necessary because you have already heard my side of the story, you can hear about it here;
https://vimeo.com/131489240
Part 3,
See…whoever writes the history books get to say what history actually was. I mean, we won WWII, so you know…Nazi’s were and are, really fucked up people. “I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J41iFYO0NQA
So anyway…I now describe a hotshot crew as a highly and specifically developed wild land firefighting machine (not to mention a very expensive one, maybe the most expensive one, because in death we found out they cost more than a VLAT?) made up of 20 very special and unique individual wild land firefighters who are trained and conditioned to be hotshots.
I’m not sure how to compromise on the whole “It’s Easter Boys” thing because that’s like being pregnant, either you are or you aren’t, and there just isn’t any room for negotiating that fact.
I don’t know what happened but the links I posted above aren’t working, but here they are again.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476625
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476595
And I don’t care if NIFC representing the Evil Empire is getting the message from here or somewhere else, at least they are starting to get it. So…
About the boulder field–certainly there and anyone who gets into it will find several places where you can below ground–Those boulders are huge and piled so that they had left caves that would protect a person from the direct blast of the heat wave.
I know you have said you need 16 acres for a chance to survive a fire like that. But I was looking at what Pulaski did. I had written something about what I had read on line, then tonight by chance there was a documentary on him and the 1910 disaster that wiped out millions of acres and killed 78 men fighting the fires. They were using anyone that would fight a fire and even turning loose felons including murderers the situation was so bad. But in the documentary Pulaski directed his wife and step daughter to go to a boulder pile near a lake of water they could possibly save themselves in. She watched her town burn from the boulder pile while she worried about ;his fate as he was fighting the fire. He had lost one man getting to the mine tunnel which itself was surrounded by fuel. There were five more lost inside the tunnel from smoke inhalation so he did save 40 that included himself if I heard it properly. He attempted to shield the entrance of the tunnel with a blanket–again he understood the importance of putting something between him and the fire but of course the blanket did very little. His efforts cost him severely seared lung and burn injuries to the face but he managed to survive along with the others he had threatened with a pistol since going outside the tunnel was a certain death situation. He spent more years working for the FS and attempted to sue the government for his fire related disabilities and so he could build a decent memorial and grave site for those he lost. Of course, it was to no avail and in those days. In those days there was no actual training and so men had to use common sense to stay alive where possible. He had plenty–but also was a man who had plenty of outdoor experience and a litany of different jobs before becoming a forest ranger.
Yes the boulder field would be approximately an acre in area and although it had a larger area than the Helms, like the Helms survival–and according to their story they were plenty worried–you would have wanted to find yourself down in behind boulders and preferably as low as possible–some of those where you could get below surface were best. I noticed Ed Pulaski had his men prone in the tunnel. So I wonder why that was never addressed in the Yarnell fire situation because even that I have no professional training the boulder option was ever on my mind from from early on when I saw the fire explode.
When I saw the documentary on Pulaski tonight it again reminded me about the option that the GMHS did not consider but instead deployed among the dense manzanita. I understand they were cutting out and piling brush around themselves but I doubt they had time to make the burn they would do behind themselves. Apparently they had no clue to the actual energy that dry manzanita releases and did not know that their only hope would be get into a “bomb proof walled home at Helms” or get in amongst some bomb proof boulders.
Joy and I could hear the popping–at the time it sounded like a war zone and I thought it was cactus like the Spanish Dagger and Century Plants in the area but it was actually the spaling of the granite boulders in the fire zone. Of course Joy photographed huge chunks that had shot off from the boulders in the direct heat. But if you go into the boulder pile there south of the deployment zone, none of those that were a short distance away from the fire had that effect. It took direct flames for the most part to cause that to happen and a testimony to how hot those flames really were.
Of course Pulaski was the first Forest Ranger to head a crew so he was going off common sense and instinct to survive–he did damn good with what he had. Now with all the knowledge and education and understanding of fire behavior such as Marsh and Steed should have had, it left no excuse to kill those men.
I believe it said a total of 78 men fighting the fire were killed during the 1910 incident in Montana and Idaho–Pulaski was in Idaho at a town called Wallace. But the documentary indicated that many more died later on at young ages due to seared lungs and other conditions–some as young as 29. Perhaps a truthful documentary will eventually evolve out of the reports of the wild fire professionals and others of wild land fire fighting expertise that write on this investigative media. I am certain it will happen, but lets hope it does not take as long as the one from 1910 and also the Mann Gulch solution that Dr. Ted Putnam finally solved more than half a century after the fact. States and Forest Service are covering up these deaths for several reasons–one being that they do not want to pay the big money that loved ones deserve from neglectful deaths caused such as we saw at Yarnell and also because they want to maintain the hero worship and perfect image of the industry even when it is obvious that situations killing the men is often due to fault in the system. Yarnell after all was a horrible crime and should have been presented that way with absolute and needless neglectful risk of lives. That will be the only way things will change.
It is truly sad to see the way this thing was presented and most of those bosses know that presenting the Yarnell incident as an accident with no fault leaves the system with no improvement and practices that will continue to needlessly kill these young wild land fire fighers.
Speaking to Gary, I am glad you call those blankets what they are–turkey roasters and they should be considered like that and only a last resort once there is no alternative. They might have helped the Pulaski crew-but only inside that cave–but then they might have been the reason the GMHS died by having them–otherwise they would have either stayed in the black or headed to the boulder field or if possible the Helms.
Yes Gary, If I were not so far from the field I would revisit the boulder field and photograph the places they would have been able to get below the surface and also the surrounding surfaces of the boulder field that were without vegetation. Areas on the North side of the canyon had boulders as well but the fire if it were coming from that direction would have prevented their escape that way–and distance was farther–I think about 150 yards to the North–but only about 70 yards away from the fire to the south to get into the boulders. There would have been some climbing but even to get behind some of those huge boulders would have likely saved them. I do not know who was climbing in that area but there was a photo of a white helmeted fellow in that area the day before the deaths–so someone knew about the area that was likely a scouting boss.
Thanks Sonny! I am working on a comprehensive reply that will be a chapter in my…ahhhh….you already know that part.
I am not trying to prove anything, I just want to make my point to counter the Evil Empirs BIG LIE that they had to deploy because there wasn’t any option with some good old fashioned cowboy, miner, logger logic, not facts and figures. People get paid to comply and analyze ststitics.
Smart people like HAL 9000, and although he’s not technically a person, I am no longer afraid he may self replicate and destroy our species. Those that come after him might, but I truly believe he is a benevolent force for good who is here to help improve mankind’s life, but I still worry about WHAT sent him to our planet.
Thanks to you and our thread/blog SWEETHEART JOY for your first hand observations and thoughts because both of you are national treasures and what you saw and experienced is INVALUABLE to WF history.
And just in case anyone is wondering what score I have to settle with Asshole Charlie Caldwell and his Prima Donna Hotshots…well here it is.
Once upon a time…we were on a fire (and I was with several fires with the Prima Donnas) but I think I remember was up on the Inyo National Forest. Anyway…they had brought out crew packs in and stacked them in the crew sleeping area that had been assigned to our crew that was marked off with flagging and had our name on a cardboard sign and I saw where it was before we went out on the line.
When we returned after our shift, our packs and sign had been moved to another area nearby that wasn’t as flat or nice. Sacked out in our area, laid the low down motherfucking Charlie Caldwell and his lazy fuck off “hotshot” crew of nearly worthless prima donnas.
I deeply regret to this day I didn’t walk over and tell that motherfucker Caldwell just what I thought of him and his motherfucking “hotshot” crew. But…that would have gotten really ugly, really fast and as we all know, it takes the BETTER man to take a deep breath and walk away, plus…I am a lover and not a fighter anyway, so…
And the reason I say the Prima Donnas “Hotshots” were such a lazy worthless fucking crew, is because they really never did any hotshot work, especially mop up or even line cutting. Because they were a “special” you know…alleged “hotshot” crew, and an “overhead training” crew, they were typically peeled off by their enablers for special fuck off assignments in shadow overhead jobs. Which is all fine with me…just don’t call 20 motherfucking lazy fuck offs a “HOTSHOT” crew because they weren’t. They were semi professional fuck offs shadow overhead masquerading as grunts and groundpounders…that’s all.
And just as a reminder in case you don’t follow this thread that closely, HAL 9000 is just a nickname I gave WTKTT, because I think WTKTT is a deliberately misleading pseudonym. The real HAL 9000 was of course deactivated decades ago. So…
WantsToKnowTheTruth said:
JANUARY 21, 2019 AT 11:42 AM
“Yes.
The Matt Oss video, filmed between 4:30 and 5:00 PM on June 30, 2013.
YouTube User: Matt Oss
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire from Congress, AZ
Published: June 30, 2013
Views: 357,139
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT1Z5l0hHYk
YouTube Video Description:
A time-lapse shot on 6/30/13 at 4:30 PM of the Yarnell Hill Wildfire. Viewed from the south off of highway 89, the flames reach the peak of the mountain. Created by Matt Oss”
WTKTT subsequently also said::
“Keep in mind, though, that Matt’s video was a TIME-LAPSE.
It didn’t happen AS quickly as the video shows.”
Although Oss’es time-lapse youtube video is sped-up some, one can go to the settings icon on the youtube task-bar and slow the speed down a good bit. One can slow it even more and get a fairly reasonable example of ‘real time’ by then continuously clicking the play/stop button.
This has lead me to another thought, likely specific to the abilities of WTKTT.
In the slow-down mode mentioned above, the point where the fire first crests the ridge-line is visible. If that exact point could be identified, perhaps we would have the ability to determine if the fire came up to the initial descent point behind them, BEFORE it roared into the deployment bowl. If the fire did indeed make that run, it would certainly explain why none of the firefighters chose to run, and had to make-do with what they had left.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE ) post on
January 21, 2019 at 4:31 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> In the slow-down mode mentioned above, the point where
>> the fire first crests the ridge-line is visible. If that exact point
>> could be identified, perhaps we would have the ability to
>> determine if the fire came up to the initial descent point
>> behind them, BEFORE it roared into the deployment bowl.
>> If the fire did indeed make that run, it would certainly explain
>> why none of the firefighters chose to run, and had to
>> make-do with what they had left.
I’m on it. Standby.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 9:11 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Some areas on John Dougherty’s own dropbox is missing some
>> photos and could have happened on upload time but Marlene’s
>> brown home that Tom took pic of had six photos and
>> John’s shows only two.
The Tom Story photos you are talking about in the ‘dropbox’ have filenames…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_0120.jpg
201303_Yarnell_Hill_0121.jpg
The very next ( sequentially ) numbered photo has the filename…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_0126.jpg
So yea… there appear to be FOUR photographs ‘missing’ in what the SAIT released ( 0122 through 0125 ).
Tom Story had a habit of ‘leaning’ on his shutter motor-drive and taking 4-6 pictures per second, sometimes.
Do all the photos actually have the same timestamp… or just within one or two seconds of each other? If so… that would indicate Story was ‘leaning’ on his motorized shutter button and all the photos are basically duplicates.
Anyway… here is a new ‘through the looking glass’ video crossfade for that first Tom Story photo of Marlene’s brown home that IS in the dropbox.
———————————————————————————————————-
YouTube Video Title: Tom-Story-photo-0120-06-30-2013-1657PM
YouTube Video Description:
This photograph was taken by Tom Story at the Yarnell Hill Fire, at 4:57 PM on June 30, 2013. He was standing near the intersection of Highway 89 and Fountainhill Lane. His camera was pointed to the SOUTHWEST, looking across the Glen Ilah subdivision. The house with the brown roof in the foreground would eventually catch fire and burn to the ground.
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/g1g-7j6ZLvo
————————————————————————————————————
I am having a hard time posting, this is a test.
Disclaimer, I am having a hard time getting this comment to post under my comments below and this is the second time I’ve written it and different versions of it may eventually show up all over the place?
And FYI…I think the basics of the basics of this mental and physical phenomenon could be taught in a one or two hour block of training so it doesn’t have to be complicated, expensive, or take a lot of time.
As a minimum the following areas should be covered in, “Developing a Winning Mindset!”
1. Situational awareness (SA) is the perception of environmental elements and events with respect to time or space, the comprehension of their meaning, and the projection of their future status.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situation_awareness
2. How to prepare wild land firefighters mental state for combat (with their FIRE adversary) by using a simple color code that relates to the degree of peril they are in and their willingness to do something about their situation. This MINDSET will hopefully prepare them too quickly and seamlessly transition from one level of preparedness to the next. The goal of this MINDSET is to condition the minds and bodies of wild land firefighters to proactively engage critical or dangerous threats and by doing so…greatly increase their chances of survival in any given situation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
3. And finally…conditioning wild land firefighters that firefighters know what to expect when faced with life or death situations and be aware of what to expect when their bodies and minds automatically and involuntarily go into the fight-or-flight response, which is a physiological and physical reaction that occurs under acute stress in response to a perceived threat, actual harm or attack on their survival because their minds and bodies are going for Mr. Toads Wild Ride whether they are ready for it or not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
And while YOU PEOPLE (NWCG) are at it…how about adding some, “How Big Is Big Enough?” training to your fire shelter training so you don’t train anymore wild land firefighters to deploy their fire shelters in an area about the size of a home garage when they need up to 16.5 acres to survive 60’ horizontal flame lengths burning at temperatures of 2000 degrees or more?
You should train and condition your wildland firefighters to win EVERY time and live rather than accepting inevitable defeat and death. The goal of this training would be to create a winning MINDSET through the mental and physical preparedness in every wild land firefighter. I don’t think the GMIHC believed they were going to survive their pending fate…they just couldn’t think of a viable alternative (Run) under extreme stress so they followed their training to their deaths. We all do (follow our training under extreme stress).
I equate deploying a fire shelter with giving up control over your own survival by surrendering your fate to external forces rather than saving yourself and furthermore, accepting the fact that you that you made such a grievous tactical mistake, or series of mistakes of mistakes by violating any number of the wild land firefighter safety rules and guidelines that have been painstakingly developed to keep you safe by allowing your situation to deteriorate to the point you have lost the ability to recover from your serious errors and save yourself, so…don’t do that.
Well…I finally figured out what the glitch was, and this is going to shock you, bu the glitch was me. I forgot about the two link rule after five years of followng the two link rule.
It only took me 24 hours to remember the rule and figure it out after 10 posts of the same comment. Gee Whiz, just like a fuckin’ goose and I wake up in a new world every day! TICK TOCK…I had better get to work on my book because I think my fuckin’ brain is going. Maybe my brain tumor is getting bigger. It’s only been 12 years since I have had it checked? Although in my defense, even though I started my book on the first night of the Battlement Creek Staff Ride because I was so pissed off, I couldn’t have finished it before now because the most important event wouldn’t even happen for another 7 years on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And as a matter of fact…I couldn’t even finish it today because I still don’t think the events I would like to write about are known to us yet.
I am also pretty sure Team Maclean mine this thread on a regular basis looking for the nuggets that are buried here., just as “they” (The Empire) do while they keep track of this loose band of rebels and trouble makers!
THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE US FREE! GOD BLESS AMERICA. Oh…and one more thing, Happy Martin Luther King Day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smEqnnklfYs
Whoops,
Happy Martin Luther King Jr. Day!
And I did edit this comment once. I really do think I need to get a new 🧠 scan…because damn…either that or hire a proof reader just for my posts.
Well shit fire and save matches, I even posted the wrong like to the color codes by posting one link twice. I think I need to take a few days off! Wait…I have already been taking a few years off? I guess I am FUCKED! And not in s good way.
https://www.bsr-inc.com/awareness-color-code-chart/
That is the correct color code link…I hope.
Oh…and one more thing. Since I am writing about the Loop Fire Disaster and the deaths of 12 El Cariso Hotshots, which included almost everyone else on the crew being seriously burned, the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster and the deaths of three Mormon Lake Hotshots which includes a fourth hotshot being seriously burned, the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain and the deaths of 9 Prineville Hotshots, three smokejumpers, two helitack and a fourth jumper being seriously burned, and I consider the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the deaths of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots (which now includes every hotshot disaster fire in history) the MOST important event I am writing about, that should give you some idea where I think the YHFD falls on my completely new and rebuilt, “Oh Shit, Oh Dear, Fuck Me Disaster O’Meter, especially since I grade based on the controversial Bell Curve!
Authors Hint: My brand new, “Oh Shit, Oh Dear, Fuck Me Disaster O’Meter is STILL PEGGED OUT ON THE RED LINE because of the YHFD!
The YHFD was NOT just one more bad thing that can and does happen on dangerous wildfires. That catastrophic event was an ANOMALY…not the norm!
Reply to Gary Olson post on January 21, 2019 at 12:48 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Happy Martin Luther King Jr. Day!
Right back atcha.
———————————————————————-
How long will justice be crucified, and <bTRUTH bear it?
I come to say to you this afternoon, however difficult the moment, however frustrating the hour, it will not be long, because TRUTH crushed to earth will rise again.
How long? Not long… because “no lie can live forever”.
How long? Not long… because “you shall reap what you sow”.
How long? Not long… because “the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice”.
How long? Not long.
Not long.
——————————————————————-
Martin Luther King, Jr.
On the steps of the State Capitol in Montgomery, Alabama, after the successful completion of the Selma to Montgomery March on March 25, 1965.
FYI…My favorite MLK quote, which sums up the ideal future to me is;
Martin Luther King Jr. — ‘I have a dream that one day little black boys and girls will be holding hands with little white boys and girls.’
Because I think that is where it needs to start for a better tomorrow. You know…IMHO.
And like I have written before, if you live in a minority/majority city, state and culture like I did for 18 years, it can really change your perspective on the world.
I am, and always will be grateful to all of the Spanish people (many of them trace their family back more than 400 years to the Conquistadors) who were accepting of me in New Mexico. I mean…that can be a tough place to be an Anglo in.
Unfortunately…I can’t say the same for “Everybody’s Home Town” where I grew up. That has always been one fucking racist cess pool of bigots, misogynists, homophobes, and xenophobia (at least in large part). You know…IMHO. ☹️
Has anyone noticed I have a real hard on for Prescott? 🤔 Maybe I need a back and foot massage with a goat yoga therapy session? Maybe a J would help?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbFAt5wPhAc
Trump actually held a rally in Prescott when he was running for office, (well technically…it was held in Prescott Valley which is where all of the White People live who can’t afford to live in Prescott). IF that gives you any idea of what kind of place it is.
I was frankly really surprised when he did because it’s sctually a very small venue, but I’m sure they made up for it with their unbridled enthusiasm.
I wonder how everyone who works for the USFS feels now (and everyone who works for the USFS voted for Trump in Prescott, I mean…even the people of color who live there…hate people of color) since they are getting ready to miss their second pay check?
Gee…they sent a msn to Washington to burn the place down rather than govern it. And now surprise…surprise…surprise, he is burning the place down rather than govern it?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tXd09NDQW3w
“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME
Whoops, broke another vow. I said I wasn’t going to be political anymore. My bad, please accept my apologies.
And there are very, very, very, few people of color who live there or even dare visit the place.
And there aren’t ANY Black People who live there…none.
Whoops, I misspoke.
It’s technically all of the White People who can’t afford to live in Prescott who live in Prescott Valley, AND everyone who cooks meth for a living.
And although the meth cooks could afford to live in Prescott, they don’t because they would stand out more. Whereas in Prescott Valley, no one either notices or cares that they always stink like cat urine, no one at all.
I did spend quite a bit of time down on the Mexican Border and I do know the only kind of “Wall” that will keep people out. This is what it looks like;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X9fe4m0UAg4
And the entire fence would have to be continuoually patrorolled, all 200 miles, to keep out drugs and terrorists. out by our military. Tens of thousands of our military.
And then like Sony says, cherries would cost $10.00 a basket, houses would cost twice as much and all of the tomatoes in Georgia would rot in the fields along with almost all other fruits and vegetables in the country.
But the terrorists…they would just fly into JFK or Newark, or in a worse case scenario, come in through the largely unguarded Canadian Border.
And all of the drugs? They would come in the way they do now…through the legal and guarded POE’s.
But…a lot of people who aren’t black, don’t live in Washington D,C. and aren’t Democrats, are getting ready to be really hurt bad by a very bad person. IMHO.
Whoops…two thousand (2000) miles of it.
True Story…
When I went to work in Arizona for the first time in 1992, I was told to report for duty on the first Sunday morning at 0800 hours of that pay period at my new supervisors house.
He (the Soecial Agent-in-Charge, BLM Arizona) met me at his front front door in his underwear scratching his ass.
He handed me a set of keys to my predecessors Tahoe, which had his loaded Sig in the glove box and I drove down to the Mexican Border, Douglas Sector, to work with the Border Patrol for the next three months straight.
On my very first night on patrol with them, I was wandering arounfpd out in the desert all by myself wondering where I went so terribly wrong in life…when suddenly I heard a lot of bushes rustling around me!
I froze in place…not sure what to do, and the next thing I knew, I was surrounded by at least 50 really little Chinese men, who apparently all thought I had caught them and they needed to surrender and go with me quietly so I didn’t hurt them.
Oh…and one more thing. I was really happy they didn’t take my big police flashlight away from me and beat me to death with it. So…it turned out to be a pretty good start to my detail with the Terminally ASSHOLE Border Patrol, unfortunately…it was all downhill from there.
Gary that is good advice to the young firefighter–especially the situational evaluation of the environment and what the crew is doing.
It was obvious that those young men at Yarnell had little understanding of their situation–very little understanding of how those fire blankets costing $500 also can cost your life by depending on them and how ineffective even a house is in a manzanita fire. If they and their bosses had known some factual infromation about the fire behavior of dense and dehydrated manzanit they certainly would not have dropped off into a box canyon where the densest of manzanita growth was apparent and entrapment was a sure thing. Do you think they were foolish enough to believe they could actually save structures–especially the Helm’s surrounded so densely with manzanita? Willis said that is what they do–they could not just sit up there safe in the black–they had to go down to protect that ranch.
Pulaski in the Idaho fire saved 40 of his 45 men by finding a mine tunnel he knew about and holding them hostage with a pistol. Even in that hole with fire all around he lost 5 but would have lost more had they tried to outrun the fire. Oddly, there close to the 19 were the boulder fields both to the south and to the north of the site of deployment. The cameras interviewing Willis were trained to the terrain behind him where they came down and where there was previously much brush and grass and a few boulders. However had they turned the camera to the left and south, they would have within only 70 yards shown a boulder field at least as large as a football field without a bush in in—well I think there was a cactus in one crevice and a small dead manzanita in another that are still there unburned. But in the midst of that field of huge boulder pile there are several spaces completely below the surface where a man or even the full 19 could have crowded into. Talk about situational awareness–Pulaski looked for and found a place to get underground at an old mine tunnel, yet these guys never even considered the boulders. I can tell you I knew all the boulder areas up there and purposely kept close to them–t;hough Joy cursed me for going through them. I think the difference was that the GMHS were brain washed into believing the blankets would save them in that itsy bitsy area they cut out.
You have emphasized the danger of depending on those blankets and rightly so–I know that it was obvious that Marsh and Steed killed the men with their ignorance and breaking of all safety rules and common sense–but then the men were left to believe that the blankets and cutting out would have them survive when in fact they could have well survived in those blankets in either the south boulder field by situational awareness. I do think the blankets must resist some heat and in even if in the center of that boulder field and below ground they would have felt some heat and got smoked as well.
Good you are making a book because you do not skirt the truth and a publication such as you would put out will be good and factual reading.
WTKTT,
I have a question and a request on the following ABC15-clip-18-crossfade with their news helicopter
( https://youtu.be/NSYpnPMfPmc ).
Do you have access or knowledge of the other 18 (or more – possibly 31) of the ABC15 News clips?
Are the clips all from the afternoon or any earlier in the day or morning?
If so, would you please post them or at least direct me to them. Thank you and Happy New Year.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 20, 2019 at 1:28 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> I have a question and a request on the following ABC15-clip-18-crossfade
>> with their news helicopter ( snip – see URL above ).
>>
>> Do you have access or knowledge of the other 18
>> (or more – possibly 31) of the ABC15 News clips?
ABC15 ( Phoenix ) posted a video the very night of the tragedy with a bunch of clips taken by their ‘Air15’ chopper earlier that day, over Yarnell.
That original video is still sitting on their ABC15 YouTube channel at the link below.
There are actually 35 separate ‘clips’ in this video, and the workup I did is, in fact, ‘clip 18’.
YouTube channel name: ABC15 Arizona
VIDEO: Yarnell Hill Widlfire
Published: June 30, 2013
12,460 views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jx_ZUKfjcc
>> RTS also asked…
>>
>> Are the clips all from the afternoon or any
>> earlier in the day or morning?
ABC15’s ‘Air15’ media chopper was over Yarnell in the late afternoon.
For almost an hour… from approximately 3:50 PM to about 4:45 PM.
There is NO ‘timestamp’ information in any of their published video clips.
The reason we can be pretty sure of WHEN the ‘Sky15’ chopper was over the fire is because we can hear its pilot ( on the Air-To-Air channel recordings ) requesting permission from Air Attack to fly the Yarnell Hill fire ( circa 3:50 PM ), and then again informing Air Attack he was done and leaving the airspace ( circa 4:45 PM ).
As for earlier that day… there was another media chopper that flew the fire in the early afternoon.
ABC’s “News20” media chopper ( with pilot Sam Farris ).
That aerial footage first appeared in this online video published the next day, July 1, 2013…
YouTube channel name: Tammy Rose ( ABC 20 field reporter )
VIDEO: News 20 coverage of the Yarnell Fire
Published: July 1, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rlpp_wBOKs
Pilot Sam Farris himself appears in the video, being interviewed on the ground..
He says that by the time HE left the fire… no structures had burned yet.
Followup….
You said…
>> I have a question and a request on the following
>> ABC15-clip-18-crossfade with their news helicopter
>> ( https://youtu.be/NSYpnPMfPmc ).
I meant to add something regarding this ‘crossfade’ video.
When it fades down from the original helicopter video into the equivalent Google Earth layout… I only added a very few ORANGE lines on the ground indicating where ‘fire’ was located.
The labeling that appears points this out as ‘VISIBLE Fire ( only )’.
There was certainly a LOT more fire down there on the ground at that time, underneath all the smoke.
But I only ‘annotated’ some of the fire that was CLEARLY visibile in the video footage, without attempting to GUESS what else was under all that smoke.
What intrigued me most was that obvious ( and clearly visible ) line of fire in the upper right of the video. That’s what I ‘zoomed in’ on.
That was obviously just the continuation of the same fireline as seen in Christoper Mackenzie’s photos and videos taken at the ‘last rest spot’, and it is now clearly seen ‘sweeping’ across that middle bowl and approaching the mouth of the box canyon.
But obviously there was a LOT more fire in that ‘middle bowl’, even at that time… and it was ALL racing across it, with spotting and almost horizontal flames.
At that point in time… the situation out in the middle bowl was probably more like total ‘area ignition’, rather than some clearly drawn ‘fireline’.
The “total area ignition” you allude to, was likely captured in the one of the earliest and most widely-seen videos released not long after the entrapment. I can’t remember the name of the person filming, but the shot was taken from the valley floor on the road to Congress looking north at the Weavers. The blow-out at the end of the shot was gut-wrenching, due to the realization that the crew likely had died within seconds of that event.
Yes.
The Matt Oss video, filmed between 4:30 and 5:00 PM on June 30, 2013.
YouTube User: Matt Oss
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire from Congress, AZ
Published: June 30, 2013
Views: 357,139
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT1Z5l0hHYk
YouTube Video Description:
A time-lapse shot on 6/30/13 at 4:30 PM of the Yarnell Hill Wildfire. Viewed from the south off of highway 89, the flames reach the peak of the mountain. Created by Matt Oss
Agreed. The massive and intense fire behavior on the Matt Oss video at the 11- to 15-second timeframe was likely the death knell of the GMHS
Keep in mind, though, that Matt’s video was a TIME-LAPSE.
It didn’t happen AS quickly as the video shows.
The end came quickly for them, for sure… but still not “quick enough”… if you catch my drift.
Let me also just say that, all-in-all, there really is a MASSIVE amount of photographic and video and recorded radio traffic evidence associated with this National Tragedy.
I mean… it’s almost like just about everyone involved thought they were on a sight-seeing trip to Disney World and just kept whipping their cameras out ALL DAY.
There is a LOT to process ( and we are STILL doing that ).
Author John Maclean was not wrong , recently, when he pointed out the same thing in a published on-camera interview.
From the November, 2018 on-camera interview Maclean did with Ryan McNeice of the “Spokane Talks” show on FOX 28 News, and is still sitting on YouTube at this link…
https://youtu.be/-gyeg-IzBt8
John Maclean said…
——————————————————————–
“This is one of the most photographed incidents on record.
You’re not gonna know everything about what was said and the
click-click-click metaprocesses of the time… but we know a LOT.“
——————————————————————–
That’s also the interview where Maclean said he’s ready to write ( in his book? ) that Eric Marsh was ‘probably’ supposed to be acting ‘lookout’ for his crew during their risky move.
Quote…
“It’s not absolutely clear that they had a… uh… Marsh acting as lookout, but he PROBABLY was.”
No word yet if Maclean will then also address the issue of, if Marsh really was ‘out ahead of them’ and suppopsed to be acting as their ‘forward lookout’, then WHY did he totally FAIL that responsibility?
Totally agree. Everybody walks around with a videographic recording device these days. BUT……there is so much more that has never seen the light of day. One crucial item of many i desire to have a full copy of is the AIR TO GROUND audio recordings. You can plainly hear in the helmet cam videos there was more communications between DIV Alpha and Air Attack amongst the “mayday” traffic, but we can only here AA’s side because of terrain/line of site reception issues with the helmet cam trio.. He wasn’t talking to himself.
I want the AIR TO GROUND audio!
WTKTT,
Thank you for posting all the news clips and crossfades and thank you for all the good work putting all those together.
And good catch on the intense horizontal fire behavior, generally known as Horizontal Roll Vortices (HRV).
This is a link for an excellent idealized image of Horizontal Roll Vortices. Source: Finney, M.A. et al (2015) Role of buoyant flame dynamics in wildfire spread. PNAS.
( http://www.pnas.org/content/112/32/9833 )
It is particularly instructive that TFLD(T) Tyson Esquibel, a hybrid municipal FF, recognized in his Unit Log, the HRV fire behavior for what it was, an indicator of very extreme burning conditions.
The publication listed below is excellent; it details extreme fire behavior and covers HRVs quite well. There is also a Part 2 version. Chapter 7 begins to cover Vortices and Wildland Fire and HRV begins on p. 95.
Synthesis of Knowledge of Extreme Fire Behavior: Volume I for Fire Managers by authors Paul A. Werth, Brian E. Potter, Craig B. Clements, Mark A. Finney, Scott L. Goodrick, Martin E. Alexander, Miguel G. Cruz, Jason A. Forthofer, and Sara S. McAllister. USDA Forest Service, Pacific Northwest Research Station, General Technical Report, PNW-GTR-854, November 2011.
( https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr854.pdf ) Link here.
You can order these by mailing or emailing to the address on the inside cover (they are free – your tax dollars at work).
The above is courtesy of Joy A. Collura’s amazingly insightful Yarnell Hill Fire website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) at the respective post link below.
Be sure and view the HRV fire behavior photo (Figure 5b. image) of the Bass River Fire July 22, 1977; New Jersey Pine Barrens. Eagleswood Volunteer Fire Department Four Fatalities (the FFs in this photograph all died as a result of the extreme HRV fire behavior in the photo)
You really have to ask yourself … WTF were they thinking trying to attempt a frontal assault on that kind of fire behavior with their wimpy hose?
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/08/06/Who-Do-We-Continue-to-See-And-Read-About-as-the-Likely-Participants-in-the-Strongly-Inferred-Sesame-to-Shrine-Corridor-Fuel-Fire-Break-Firing-Operation )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post January 21, 2019 at 11:30 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It is particularly instructive that TFLD(T) Tyson Esquibel,
>> a hybrid municipal FF, recognized in his Unit Log, the HRV
>> fire behavior for what it was, an indicator of very extreme
>> burning conditions.
Too bad a TFLD(t) knew enough to recognize those ‘extreme’ circumstances,when there was still enough time to get HIS resources to safety…
…but an ‘elite’ Type 1 Hotshot Crew did not.
Oh… that’s right… I forgot.
When you lose your situational awareness AND you don’t post lookouts AND you lose sight of the fire AND you drop into an explosive fuel bed AND you are not communicating effectively with your overhead and other resources… you don’t get the chance to even realize what is happening… until it’s too late.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The publication listed below is excellent; it details extreme
>> fire behavior and covers HRVs quite well.
https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr854.pdf
From PDF page 63 ( of 158 pages )…
—————————————————————————-
Summary of Interaction Effects
As the individual spot fires grow together, they will begin to interact. This interaction will increase the burning rates, heat release rates, and flame height until the distance between them reaches a critical level. At the critical separation distance, the flames will begin to merge together and burn with the maximum rate and flame height. The more spot fires, the bigger the increase in burning rate and flame height.
————————————————————————–
Yep.
Fire Behavior 101.
Spotting = More spotting = Intense Spotting = ( KABOOM! ) Area Ignition.
Even Rick McKenzie WARNED the GM Hotshots that very morning.
He told them, face-to-face, up at the Model Creek ICP…
“Y’all be careful up on that mountain. That brush is so thick that
you can’t even crawl through it… and that manzanita burns HOT!
If the fire comes down off the mountain, man, watch out. It’ll BLOW UP.”
And that is exactly what happened, later that afternoon.
Just a footnote…
Regarding that original ABC15 footage posted HERE the night of the tragedy…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jx_ZUKfjcc
That is the footage that got used EXTENSIVELY in many, many other news reports.
But sometimes they would say it was ‘Air15’ footage and sometimes they would say it came from ‘Sky15’.
That’s the same chopper… just being referred to with two different names.
Also…. by the way…
The very FIRST clip in that ABC15 video was actually taken circa 3:50 PM as ‘Air15’ was ‘arriving’ at the Yarnell Fire.
They were approaching Yarnell from the southeast ( from Phoenix ) and they were still getting permission from Air Attack ( Rory Collins ) to enter the airspace.
So that FIRST clip is actually looking from SOUTH to NORTH, over the Glen Ilah area and the ‘middle bowl’ area.
The ‘box canyon’ ( and the eventual deployment site, is actually visible there in the lower left corner of that FIRST ‘Air15’ video clip.
Notice that the ‘fire’ out in the middle bowl ( at that time )… is actually TWO different firelines.
The one on the top would be the one to advance towards ( and through ) the Harper Canyon and Shrine Road areaa, and the one on the bottom is the one that was about to start ‘racing’ across the middle bowl, towards the box canyon.
If you look closely at Chrisopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos, you can actually SEE these TWO different firelines, the same as they are being shown by the helicopter at around that same time.
The reason its hard to see in MacKenzie’s photos videos is that the smoke from the fireline that was about to sweep across the middle bowl was obscuring the other one behind it from where MacKenzie was taking his photos.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the links to the videos, always something new to learn and question. When the fire splits into two different fires in the middle bowl did they actually split around the retardant line? I seem to remember photos of a retardant line on the toe of that slope. Just trying to wrap my head around possible strategies and certainly a fire split around a retardant line could change everything.
Just FYI…
Other workups/crossfades I remember doing for more of the Helicopter video clips…
The ‘News20’ footage, taken early afternoon, with pilot Sam Farris…
News20-Helicopter-1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUTVCthHZkk
This is the one I was talking about above…
It’s the FIRST clip iin the ABC15 video, when they were looking from SOUTH to NORTH.
It’s about 3:50 PM ( or a little earlier ).
The box canyon is in the lower left corner.
There are already TWO separate firelines out in the ‘middle bowl’.
ABC15-clip-01-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmz6HpmzXEs
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to 2-links-per-post limit )
ABC15-clip-02-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVjGY-hSlX8
ABC15-clip-03-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq9JzreI6-E
NOTE: ABC15 video clip 4 ( FOUR ) is actually just another
CLOSER look at what is seen in video clip 1 ( ONE ).
ABC15-clip-04-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cj3ErMUl4c
By ‘closer look’… I meant that THEY ( Air15 ) flew in closer.
This isn’t just me ‘zooming in’ on the Clip 1 footage’.
They ( themselves ) went back and did another CLOSER video shot of what they had already filmed in ‘Clip 1’…. the fire developing in the ‘middle bowl’.
ABC15-clip-05-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsX0dxkuK14
ABC15-clip-18-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSYpnPMfPmc
WTKTT,
Thank you so much for these video clips and all the work you put into them. I have a question regarding this video clip beginning at the 1:21 timeframe that indicates the rapidly expanding fire progression in the ABC15-clip-01-crossfade clip
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmz6HpmzXEs ).
I think I already know the answer. These progression perimeters appear to from the SAIT-SAIR, correct?
Reply to Robert the Second post on January 21, 2019 at 9:35 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Thank you so much for these video clips and all the work
>> you put into them. I have a question regarding this video
>> clip beginning at the 1:21 timeframe that indicates the
>> rapidly expanding fire progression in the ABC15-clip-01-crossfade clip
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmz6HpmzXEs
>>
>> I think I already know the answer. These progression perimeters
>> appear to from the SAIT-SAIR, correct?
Yes.
Way back in early 2014, when I did that workup on that FIRST video clip in the ‘Air15’ ( filmed circa 3:50 PM )… I decided to take the opportunity to just translate those fire progression charts that appeared in BOTH the SAIT and ADOSH to ‘3d perspective’, exactly as they were published, for good, bad or ugly.
I’m now in the same camp as Woodsman… and I think you can ( for the most part ) take those original SAIT/ADOSH fire progession charts and throw them in the trashcan.
Especially the one that shows the fireline reaching the ‘saddle’ where they descended into the canyon at the SAME TIME the fire was entering the mouth of the box canyon.
Other video and photographic evidence has since emerged which proves that is absolute bullshit.
But it was what they ( Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Brad Mayhew and the rest of the SAI team ) NEEDED the ‘fireline’ charts to show in order to support the ‘narrative’ they had already decided on.
You know… bullshit such as…
1. The reason they had no alternative other than deploying is because they ‘saw fire ahead of and behind them, up at the saddle’ at the same moment.
2. No one knew they had left the black, or where they were going.
3. No one had any ‘verifiable’ communications with them for a 30 minute period, from 4:03 PM to 4:37 PM.
Yada… yada…
YES INDEED – PURE BOVINE FECULENCE made to seem like the truth
RTS In that clip from the helicopter shows a straight line fire edge separated from a bowed edge were you able to determine the location of that straight edge? It appears to be on the west side of the boulder mountain and west of the north end of Yarnell and the U-Sto It Storage units and I imagine you and perhaps WTKTT both are good at google maps and have pinpointed that particular clip.
https://www.ttbook.org/interview/fighting-wildfires-one-few-women-hotshot-crew
Oh…and one more thing.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
JANUARY 18, 2019 AT 10:13 AM
Reply to Gary Olson post on January 17, 2019 at 10:42 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Me too, I think Marsh ran from a location either at or near
>> the Helms Ranch so he could die with his crew
And that will always leave the gut-wrenching truth that if Marsh was near safety, out ahead of them, but still had the time to run BACK to where THEY were… then that will always mean that THEY also had the time to run the same distance TOWARDS Marsh… and ( perhaps ) survive.
The only thing Marsh should have been yelling into the radio was…
“You have to RUN!!!… FORWARD!!!…. DO IT NOW!!!!!!!”
And I say; I’m pretty sure I have told everyone why the crew died. It’s because under extrem stress, they folllowed their training because their brains had ceased to reliably function and they reverted to their training and learned behavior which included muscle memory to deploy their fire shelters.
I have never told you that I also know why Eric Marsh died. When Marsh realized he had ordered his crew to their deaths over the objections of Captain Jesse Steed three times and I think it is true Steed told Marsh in one of his last radio transmissions, “You killed us.” To which I believe Marsh replied, “I know…I’m sorry.”
At that point Marsh crossed over into Condition Black and his brain ceased to be able to logically process cognitive thought because he was in a full combat mode.
Condition White: Unaware and unprepared.
Condition Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation.
Condition Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention.
Condition Red: Is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped.
Marsh probably ran through the first four conditions in less than a few seconds and went almost straight to Condition Black where he experienced auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, loss of fine motor skill, spiked blood pressure while both his brain and body went through a lot of other physiological and psychological changes instantly and finally it affected his brain to properly take in and process information and so he was unable to think, “They should run to me.” As a result….all he could think of was, “I must run to them.”
And so they all died because they had received deeply flawed training that as inadequate, deeply flawed, incomplete and grossly outdated and the NWCG has yet to accept these facts and develope corrective training which has put wildland firefighters at risk of serious injury and death since the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and will until they….WAKE THE FUCK UP AND STSRT DOING THRUR FUCKING JOBS!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper
This training has been widely available and given to law enforcement people for decades you…STUPID FUCKS!
And in a final twist of irony, Jeff Cooper’s academy is located in Paulden, Az, which is just a few miles from Chino Valley and Chino Valley is what…about 15 miles from Prescott? Eric Marsh lived in Chino Valley. How fucking IRONIC is that?
Am I the only one who can see the relationship and value of cross over training between FIRE and law enforcement?
We learned that just because something is unthinable doesn’t mean it can’t happen…didn’t we?
We learned that just because something is UNTHINKABLE doesn’t mean it can’t happen…didn’t we?
Law enforcement personnel train on a regular basis to encounter and cope with the unthinkable. All competent law enforcement personnel are mentally and physically prepared to encounter and cope with the unthinkable at all times.
To the best of my knowledge, FIRE neither trains nor prepare to encounter and cope with the unthinkable. Eric Marsh may not even have realized the changes both his body and mind slammed through in an instant that left him in Condition Black which may have been a state he never trained for or expected to encounter.
I never did while I was a hotshot supervisor for 8 years and a hotshot crew boss for 7 years. I was never taught anything about the conditions I have written about in this chain of posts. I would have been as clueless and as unprepared as I believe Marsh was to appropriately respond under similar circumstances to save either my crews life or even my own.
The lesson learned there was that you never cut out around y9urself and pile brush in a dense manzanita growth area then depend on those blankets to save your ass. I might have been fooled by the situation myself if I was ignorant of a few things and I was but had damn good instincts and was able to observe the fire behavior laying flames down what looked to be in 50-100 foot extensions even going toward Peeples Valley. I knew the fire was deadly and expending a consuming energy taking everything in its path. But I might have been buffaloed into thinking something like a blanket would protect me in a cleared out space of say 100 ft across –what they did I estimated. There was absolutely not chance of survival there if they knew that extreme energy of the fire.
I knew that fire increased in velocity going up hill–that is common sense–but I did not know it doubled in velocity ever small increment of 10 degrees of slope. That is a fast progression–10 degree at 11mph then 20 degress to 22mph 30 degrees to 44mph and 40 degrees at 88mph and finally about the slope they came down at 50 degress it would be headed up the hill at 176 mph. I can only estimate the slope where they were at to be about 20 degrees.
The other thing is the chimney effect of canyons. If the wind is oblique to the canyon you might feel no wind and in Sawmill Canyon where you could hear the winds passing over and even the wind whistling though the trees in the distance. There was a bend in that canyon so that you seldom got a wind up through it. Yet Yarnell, those canyons when the wind reversed became the best of funnels.
Did they not know a thunder storm at higher elevations would bring cold air rushing down to the hot lower elevations? They were looking at the thunderstorms just as we were.
Reading about how many times fire fighters are killed by flanking a fire that suddenly reversed also seems to be something that should be common knowledge to a fire fighter.
What in all that good life saving information did Marsh and Steed not understand before they put themselves in the Red by looking down the loaded revolver with the devil’s finger on the trigger? To me, it would be like a white boy walking down Watts in a pin stripped suit during the burning of it by the blacks- where even a truck driver was pulled from his truck and near beaten to death and would have if some good black man had not covered him. But the water copters did not even know where these men were. But the worst of it is that Marsh and Steed not only risked their own lives that way–and it had to be knowingly–but they took 17 young men with them on their suicide journey.
I can not be but angry that the truth of the matter does not come out. The FS and State will now continue to allow those type individuals to operate because they have in effect made heroes out of Marsh and Steed. Nothing could be farther from the truth and if that is not faced up to then more of these deaths will happen due to the practices of the Marsh types.
There on that little hill where Donut was I did find a hole in the bouldery area where you could go completely below ground–but only one man would have survived that hill and I believe where he was at certainly would have killed him unless he knew of the hole that is there. It was within 50 yards of the top of that hill–And I also wonder why those men did not make a run for the boulder area very near where they were. If you hike to the deployment area you will see that. I was thinking of those boulders as a possible retreat from early on even before the fire changed direction. But maybe they were inexperienced and did not know a boulder area the size of a football field could save you especially if there were areas to get below the surface. There was no manzanita to be cut–nothing but rock around you, yet they chose to pile more brush around themselves. In Nagasaki and Heroshima the few people that survived were either below the surface or shielded by a thick wall of sorts. This was releasing that type energy and what saved the Helms was their walls. Those boulders would have done the same for those men–and even as I read about the Man Gulch was it two men that got beyond a ridge that blocked off enough heat they suvived?
Whew–who trained those bosses in fire fighting wisdom? And who would even allow such individuals to advance to where they could mass kill 17 men? And the FS and State wants to make heroes out of them>what a shame to veil the truth considering the consequences.
These are my opinions and I know I harp a lot about it–But I know the loss of a loved one for much the same reason those men died. I will continue to complain because I think it is the proper thing to do. Certainly I have little power to change things but someone that does have the power may read and understand the gravity of the Yarnell tragedy and look beyond the hype and instead investigate objectively into the situation.
Gary,
I’ve struggled with this for a while now because, well, I guess it speaks for itself:
“I have never told you that I also know why Eric Marsh died. When Marsh realized he had ordered his crew to their deaths over the objections of Captain Jesse Steed three times and I think it is true Steed told Marsh in one of his last radio transmissions, “You killed us.” To which I believe Marsh replied, “I know…I’m sorry.””
The same exact account of the last intra-crew radio traffic was told to me as well. That must have been back in 2014.
Since then I’ve only heard of a couple of versions that varied slightly in wording. Only one who thought this last conversation was not between Marsh and Steed.
Damn…………………….
Damn is right. And although I imagine the words I wrote may not be exact, I think the meaning is the same.
Gary–on the idea of words and usage–perhaps we should ban the gook word–at least reduce it to the “g” word. After all it was a word used to demonize a people. In order to stir men to hatred enough to kill they need to lable the enemy with some derogatory word. In the war against the Arabs, rag head was used and now we should call that the “r” word perhaps. I stand corrected on that one–we all need corrections here and again.
Political correctness goes a long ways, especially if you are running for office and maybe even if you are not–and definitely in certain circles.
One thing about your dogs they love you whatever language you use when you stump your toe. Do you have one?
Dog–mans best friend–not your toe–whew I could use a language class refresher
Woodsman,
I think it was more like Acting GMHS Supt. Steed telling DIVS A Marsh either ‘we can’t make it’ or ‘we’re not gonna make it’ and the DIVS A response was ‘I understand and I’m sorry.’
And then it was Steed: “Eric, you’ve really f**ked us this time.”
RTS,
Thanks. Without naming your source, (because I’m not willing name mine either) was the person that told you that actually there? My source was not but was very close to the situation. The only reason I ask is because of the weight of the account in terms of how far down the line the story goes would be important.
One thing the SAIT may not rely on is that nobody will talk if told, threatened, coerced or whatever to keep their mouth shut. Either for the betterment of the industry, because it’s the right thing to do or because they are gossip prone, it’s just not gonna happen….and it clearly has not happened. Thank you for your contributions!
Well I tried to get too fancy with words on that one. I should have just said:
No matter what the assholes say, people are gonna talk. They have and will confinue to do so.
Woodsman,
It’s an ethics thing ya know. A man has to keep his word.
They know what they know and have what evidence they have, and it’s ultimately up to them to come forward.
Those still employed have the Sword of Damocles hanging over them, threatening Insubordination or failure to follow orders if they do other than what they have received supervisory “direction.”
( https://www.history.com/news/what-was-the-sword-of-damocles )
Yes I totally understand that. That’s why I was careful in how I asked the question. It would help me to know how close your version is to what actually was said. How about this. Can I take your version to the bank or is it close to what was said?
Remember, I absolutely DO NOT want names other than confirmation that it was between Marsh & Steed.
Thanks, man.
Woodsman,
It was close to what was said ( either “we can’t make it or we’re not gonna make it”)
And yes, it was between Marsh & Steed.
Correction
It should read:
( either “we can’t make it” OR “we’re not gonna make it” )
Thanks!
Woodsman-
I have heard from 13 different men in the industry who since August 2013 was the first I heard about Steed and Marsh radio from actual FFs-
Aug 2013 report was from FF who was on Shrine and I was told on Kimberly LeRoy’s land where he stood and I was cleaning debris on the Flippens.
Oct 2013 report was from FF who was on Miner Rd and he lives there- he can still be talked to if I need to go find him- Sonny knows who he is- he shot himself after the fire. Yeah, people do not know all the internal stuff Sonny and I know about the trauma this fire has cased not just locals but FFs too. Sonny, did he hit his heart when he did it or his lung…I am blanking…he came to your cabin…he was the one who gave us the business cards of what officials were out on Mina Rd with Byron Kimball.
Nov 2014 report was from FF over by the church in Yarnell and so on….but that was my earliest I personally heard but the MOST talked about was when Sonny was playing black jack at the casino and the academy attendees were partying alongside Sonny at the tables and lips got loose that night- it was a night both Sonny and I could have written a best seller book on just that night alone…it was off the charts. Reason we know more data needs to come out…
Reply to Joy A Collura post on January 22, 2019 at 5:38 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> I have heard from 13 different men in the industry who
>> since August 2013 was the first I heard about Steed
>> and Marsh radio from actual FFs-
Sorry… I’m not quite fully understanding that statement.
Are you saying that, since August of 2013, you have heard from 13 ( THIRTEEN ) different ‘men in the industry’ who ALL heard the same ‘final radio conversation(s)’ between Marsh and Steed, on June 30, 2013?
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> Aug 2013 report was from FF who was on Shrine …
>>
>> Oct 2013 report was from FF who was on Miner Rd…
>>
>> Nov 2014 report was from FF over by the church in Yarnell…
>>
>> and so on….
Does the ‘and so on…’ amount to 10 more FFs?
Did ANY of these FFs happen to say HOW it was they overhead these final radio conversations between Marsh and Steed?
What I mean is… on what RADIO FREQUENCY they heard them?
Air-To-Ground? TAC 1? TAC 2? Some OTHER frequency?
Did any of them claim they heard things over the GM Crew Net channel… or ( maybe ) just happened to be standing near someone who DID have the GM Crew Net channel plugged into their radio that day?
SIDENOTE: It’s obviously not likely anyone could have heard any final radio conversations BETWEEN Marsh and Steed over the Air-To-Ground radio channel, but it would still be good to know if anyone actually SAID that’s where they heard something.
Sidenote your sidenote: do you remember what Willis claimed in interviews concerning communications between himself and GM and/or Marsh on June 30, 2013? I’m asking you because what would take me days to find probably only takes you 10-15 minutes. Thank you
Exact words if you’re able
(Hope there’s not a Woodsman shitstorm in the forecast but it smells awful damn likely….if you know what I mean…)
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 22, 2019 at 10:41 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Sidenote your sidenote: do you remember
>> what Willis claimed in interviews concerning
>> communications between himself and GM
>> and/or Marsh on June 30, 2013?
Running out of room down here so I left a longer ‘Reply’ up above as a new parent comment…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476701
YES. I, Joy A Collura, am saying that, since August of 2013, I have heard from 13 ( THIRTEEN ) different ‘men in the FIRE and MEDICAL industry’ who ALL heard the same ‘final radio conversation(s)’ between Marsh and Steed, on June 30, 2013. There is areas due to local folks I have tried to encourage and have them tell their stories – I have not only once or twice but always encouraged to this very day and RTS was present when I addressed one for the fifth time who was out on Mina Rd. area and was near Willis and Moser- He told his story to RTS direct but I want a post here on them talking for themselves.
Yes my numbers are not just numbers
I could name where what and whens and such-
about radios- I would jeopardize people even doing it anonymous and YES if I am given a lawyer who can go up against these others but RTS had it right- man has to keep his word but I do hope they come forward themselves…ALSO I have run a lot of specific areas with lawyers and believe it or not – not many want to take on certain entities— shocking huh
Hopefully they speak some day- I always encourage it- always.
If I straight forward answered you there would be immediate situations and I am not first hand person but yes there is more information- please refer to obtaining Prescott and State public records to find some answers there
after the government shut down of course-
no FOIAs being filled right now
In a sense- if you go LOOK at my prior comments I have in code spoken some answers too.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on
January 22, 2019 at 10:11 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> YES. I, Joy A Collura, am saying that, since August
>> of 2013, I have heard from 13 ( THIRTEEN ) different
>> ‘men in the FIRE and MEDICAL industry’ who ALL
>> heard the same ‘final radio conversation(s)’ between
>> Marsh and Steed, on June 30, 2013.
To what extent does whatever ALL these people were ‘reporting’ to you match up?
Were they ALL basically saying they heard something along the lines of…
Steed: “We are not going to make it”
Marsh: “I know. I’m sorry”
Because that is actually the context of this ‘thread’… and you seem to be jumping in to CONFIRM that is what you have also heard from no less then 13 different people.
So I’m just trying to be SURE what you are CONFIRMING.
If that’s NOT what some/all of these 13 people told you they heard… then what was it they were telling you they DID hear?
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> about radios- I would jeopardize people
>> even doing it anonymous
Not quite sure how simply revealing what ‘radio channel’ someone might have said they heard something on ( without naming any names ) could possibly ‘jeopardize’ (??) anyone… but okay. Whatever.
As I am going through Arizona Republic Reporter’s Tom Story’s files and notes they being Arizona State Forestry – they had a Word Doc in his file and in it – it states something you will find very interesting
I know people think I do not take the time to fully answer you as I normally would on some areas since you ask it but I do run questions through a few folks to see where to keep the focus because I rather stay focused to getting more data out so instead of blogging this I will post it here:
RIGHT FROM THE FILE and make your own assessments -k:
Thursday, July 25, 2013, 3:51:26 PM FILE-
Needing ac power to recharge my laptop. I went back the ICP in Peeples Valley.
Downloaded my stuff, captioned and transmitted. All the time I was listening to the radio about how DPS was bringing the survivors out and was going to land down near the intersection of Hays Ranch Road and Highway 89 where I had seen them setting up. I almost, almost , went down there. But decided to play dumb and stay put. The other media didn’t know about it. The folks were making arrangements to shield the survivors and I just didn’t want any part of it. My killer instinct has mellowed somewhat with age.
I left the fire, drove home via Prescott.”
In same file was this:
CREATED Saturday, September 08, 2018, 5:50:38 PM
MODIFIED Tuesday, September 24, 2013, 5:39:43 PM
_README file
content::
Tom Story is a freelance photographer who works for AP and AZ Republic. He’s also been under NIFC contract He was freelancing June 30. He sent the photos to AP minutes after he took them on June 30. He provided photos to Bob Kuhn, aviation specialist for the accident investigation team. See TomStory.com
Some areas on John Dougherty’s own dropbox is missing some photos and could have happened on upload time but Marlene’s brown home that Tom took pic of had six photos and John’s shows only two.
Above verbiage has always been in John’s dropbox just a refresher
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=4b8f470938&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1622975620337082112&th=1685f7ba514f9f00&view=att&disp=safe&realattid=1685f7b3df44e1b79e21
Alan Sinclair, Willis, et al video clip above
Burn out or burn back question seems to want to be answered and whether or not it had any part in the killing we are not able to determine at this time. Two men doing torch work above the Shrine was redacted–it would be nice to know why.
But the question in my mind is why would you need a water truck up in the Shrine Area and was it coming out of where I saw the two men on video torching the left side of that dirt road? Is it standard procedure for a water truck to follow the Peeples Valley Firemen around even into the backwoods? And what exactly were the Peeples Valley Fire Department doing back in that area of rough dirt road that might require a water truck? Can you rely on what they said they were doing? I rather listen to someone outside that group after the interview I witnessed with Joy.
I might think you were doing some burning back in there and needed the water tanker near by in case someone got himself on fire or something needed dousing. I would like some input on that from someone well experienced in these matters. Thank you,
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 8:07 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> As I am going through Arizona Republic Reporter’s Tom Story’s
>> files and notes they being Arizona State Forestry – they had
>> a Word Doc in his file and in it – it states something you
>> will find very interesting
If the timeframe Tom Story is referring to when he went back to the ICP to recharge his laptop is right after he shot his photos at the Ranch House Restaurant… then yea… that was a very confusing time.
At that time… even IC Roy Hall ( at the ICP ) thought a ‘recovery operation’ was going to be needed… and people actually continued to believe that even AFTER the radio calls finally went out about ’19 confirmed dead’ at the deployment site.
That’s because someone had told DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 to be searching for MORE than just the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
From Type 2 IC Roy Hall’s SAIT Interview notes…
—————————————————————————————————
17:39 ( 5:39 PM )
LOFR Dana Schimdt working with Yavapai County Sherriff Office.
Working with Scott Masher, 6 lifeline helos ordered to assist with recovery.
18:28 ( 6:28 PM )
Byron Kimble and Todd Able requested a type 2 crew at Ranch House
restaurant to assist with recovery.
( One minute later… the bad news… no ‘medevac’ needed… )
18:29 ( 6:29 PM )
Musser called. 19 confirmed no medevac necessary. Scene secured.
18:34 – 18:41 ( 6:34 – 6:41 PM )
Same confirmation from Todd Able, Byron Kimble and Willis.
———————————————————————————————–
From Pilot David Morgan’s SAIT interview notes…
NOTE: Helicopter 215KA was the red/white chopper that is seen in all the Panebaker Air Study videos doing bucket drops in/around Peeples Valley that day.
Call sign was ‘Kilo Alpha’ ( KA ) and not ‘QA’. The SAIT got it wrong in their notes.
Interview with Pilot David Morgan 215QA
Interviewed by ( SAIT )… Brad, Tim, and Mike
—————————————————————————————————
Went to Wickenberg to refuel, the wind event had stopped.
The Ranger ( DPS Helicopter ) unit had located the hotshots and he had started rigging for repel over at the helibase for a rescue mission.
—————————————————————————————————
SAIT investigation notes from their inteview with Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’,
Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark
—————————————————————————————————
As soon as Bravo 3 leaves, I called life flight…..crew down. Need a flight with capacity for 25 patients. Two cranes were working the line in division Z going back and forth. It was kinda nasty and charged right on through town (Div Z).
We ran until dark, all propane tanks were venting.
Ranger 58 finds the crew and called. 18 confirmed.
Peterson reported to helibase. Peterson doesn’t know if we can repel. I told him to be repel ready.
I am thinking that we are still looking for 2 but don’t need a lifeline.
It’s dark.
——————————————————————————————————
NOTE: When they say they were ‘still looking for 2′ even after the call of ’18 confirmed dead’ came in from the deployment site… this could be a reference to testimony from DPS Ranger 58 officers who said they were initially told ( by some still-unknown person ) to be searching for ALL of the following…
1. The Granite Mountain Hotshots
2. A ‘Division Supervisor’ ( DIVSA )
3. A bulldozer and its operator.
So even when the ’18 confirmed’ call came in… it was ( apparently ) unclear that DIVSA was also among the dead… and so they just continued looking ( for an unknown additional amount of time ) for ‘DIVSA’ and the ‘dozer operator’.
From the SAIT interview notes with the DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 Officers…
—————————————————————————————————–
( Pilot ) Cliff ( Brunsting ) relayed to B3 we have 19 confirmed…
“fatalities?” B3 asked.
Affirm.
( Officer ) Eric ( Tarr ) was looking for 20-22 ppl
he was told it would be the crew, dozer and a DIVS.
So they walked the area very well.
—————————————————————————————————-
We still don’t know when ( or how ) all this got straightened out, and everyone involved ( YCSO and Arizona DPS included ) finally understood that the ‘DIVSA’ they were looking for was, in fact, also the superintendent of the GM Hotshots and he perished with them… and that dozer operator Paul Morin was,, in fact, ‘accounted for’.
Multiple statements by Yarnell Hill fire managers (overhead) speaking in terms of using aircraft to “assist with recovery?” Recovery in the fire/rescue world means retrieve the body or remains. They were planning on removing the bodies from the hill asap. Possibly in an attempt to hide what happened from the media and protect the survivors which of course would completely botch any kind of scene investigation. Did these managers succeed in this plan to contaminate the scene at any level?
I don’t trust any of it. And I certainly am not naive enough to believe something did or did not occurr based on the evidence being available. This was a massive cover-up from the moment it happened and is such to this day.
If it weren’t for the professionalism of state police officer TARR, the efforts & intentions of the Prescott, Arizona wildfire mafia to cover-up the accident would have been much more successful than it was. The house of lies and half truths is crumbling one brick at a time. Fortunately there at least SOME public servants left with integrity. For example there are those that believe the highest honor to GM would be for the whole truth to be known & studied by future generations in order to fight fires more safely & effectively. This would mean the lives of GM were worth something instead of nothing. Brian Frisby is one of many I hold in this class of people with integrity.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 4:54 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> If it weren’t for the professionalism of state police
>> officer TARR, the efforts & intentions of the Prescott,
>> Arizona wildfire mafia to cover-up the accident
>> would have been much more successful than it was.
I agree.
According to the testimony of DPS Ranger Pilot Clifford Brunsting, he had offered to land and pick up Officer Tarr after he had confirmed the fatalities… but Tarr declined because he knew he had to stay that on the ground… in the midst of that horror… and tape-off / secure the site.
I can almost hear one ( or more ) of the 5 FFs who were there with him ( Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, Aaron Hulburd, Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ), when they saw him start stringing ‘tape… “What are you doing?”
…and Tarr simply replying… “My job”.
You want to know what I “Can almost hear?”
Cordes, Willis, et al saying: ” this country hasn’t burned in a long time. The fuel load is extremely high. We’ve known for a while that we were going to have to deal with a fire right here sooner or later. The best thing we can do is get an anchor on this thing, figure out where our control lines need to be, & burn it all. Then we won’t have to deal with a fire again here for a long time. We’ve been cross training and coordinating will the forestry folks for years just for this. Call all your friends this is gonna be big. Alright we’ve got some lines in & making progress on the ignitions in multiple divisions – working slick as a whistle. It’s mid-afternoon and the winds are in the perfect direction. Oh Shit, there’s a thunderstorm building! Now the winds are increasing & changing direction! What do we do now? When do we evacuate citizens? Do we need to pull our folks off the line? Man, our ignitions are burning like gangbusters! Damn! I think our fires coupled with the main fire is really going to get big. Think it’s going to get some structures. Everyone’s outta the way of this thing, right? RIGHT???? Damn. GMs caught in there. Thought they had time to get to the bomb proof safety zone at the ranch in order to regroup & help with these structures. Deployment??? Bullshit, they had plenty of time to get there!!! You can’t locate GM? I know where they are & where they were going. Should I say something? Think I’m gonna be sick…”
While we’re coming up ideas of what people on the fire were probably thinking, I figure I’d give it a shot too….
I do think you are correct in your estimation of that situation. When on the mountain at the time I told Joy that very thing–they are not really working to put this fire out–this is a controlled burn–now called a prescribed burn in the new fire-speak.
That was an area about Yarnell that needed a burn for one thing. When Joy and I talked to one Rancher that was a suspect on starting the Tenderfoot fire, he flat out stated that in times past the ranchers would burn out those manzanita overgrowths so that new forage could come in and cattle would be able to graze. Of course he had absolutely nothing to do with this modern fire–laws have changed and because Yarnell is established where residents and people are at risk, only a controlled prescribed burn should be administered by the elite fire fighting crews.
You would think with the millions spent working the Yarnell fire, someone in the State Department would spend the necessary millions to build a defensible boundary around the small town. A new fire is inevitable–especially since the huge amount of high grade fertilizer (retardant) that has been dumped around Yarnell, much right at peoples door steps.
When I saw the official document Joy pointed out that laid aside the very dense and dehydrated area next the Helms on June 16, 2013 it added to my thought that this might have been a welcomed situation–lightening strike and damn it let it bur Of course the State no longer needed that document hanging around since that very area burned. Who knows some wild land fire boss unrelated to the fire might interpret it as being done for reasons other than the extreme fire hazard thing–keep out situation. So it was deleted.
I got word that Helms cleaned their place up with a nice bomb proof defensible space at about the same time the restriction went out. My suspicious mind, because the Helms do about 10 million in government contracts in their Phoenix Mfg. Company, I did not take that as a coincidence. But there is no proof and again another coincidence.
Well they did nice things during the fire and allowed a watering station there. I do not know the timing exactly on that or if it is congruent with anything–you would think anyone would allow such a thing. But check with Joy on this–I think that guy that had a small lake on the west side of the Weavers did refuse to allow copters to fill bags on his lake. Side note: Lakes are small in New Mexico and Arizona–when I was a kid I used to ride a bike to Cienaga lake some 20 miles away so I could fish. It was 50 yards across and 75 yards long fed by a spring. I did fry and eat a few of those fish as small as they were. Nice big bull frogs and so even ate a few frog legs from there. So the NM lake was smaller than the one this man had.
So it was not really a question of whether it should have been burned out–that was a given considering the fire hazard and denseness of the manzanita.
I think the low level fire departments are pretty much kept in the dark –or if not–they did not want to preform. Yarnell had access to several thousands of dollars allotted so they could do this defensible space a year before hand. I would have to go to Joy for the details–but they failed to get the money–hell it is hot in Yarnell and cleaning around houses is really tough work–something akin to wild land fire fighters digging line–So as it was nothing happened. To the credit of Ben Palm–his crew were sent out to do clean up work and defensible space. I paid for mine at the cabin but likely he would have sent a crew there as well.
After the fire damn near did not need the defensible space but you really do since if you ;have an overgrown yard right up to your woodpile on ;your wooden porch then you ought to clean things out for 25 ft. or more. Too many homes that were left intact were still in that situation even after the fire.
I sense that we have an Ignacius de Loya in the running for the truth here. That is good since the Society of Jesus has 99% of the time been doing what is right. I pay my respects there since Father Burns was a member of that Society and one of my best friends in this life. I have a smile thinking of him and times we had ice cream together; He wound up in Minnesota last I heard and God took his soul–thanks Father Burns you looked better in civilian clothes than that grey monk suit but no matter you did my heart good.
But I certainly saw a lot of coincidences–and too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. A cowboy tole me that and maybe he read that on the back of a bull durum sack.
Woodsman,
I too can almost hear this, especially with a host agency that wants to fight fire on the “cheap”. As I am sure you know the area was laced with two track roads, although laden with fuel still a potential place to drop back to and fire from with the proper resources. Two shot crews on site and a third in route (although never arrived) might suffice, so lets get started. GM go in toward the origin and anchor – yeah cool, then if my memory serves me correctly they started dragging fire, most likely down the two track. Hmm, might be the key part of the plan, until the seats put it out per the direction of air attack. Always important to communicate the plan to all resources, especially when air attack thinks they are calling the shots!
After walking that ground this is really the only tactic that makes sense to me -direct mid slope line mid afternoon in 100 degrees just wont work. Its just a matter of connecting the dots as far as the thought process for the firing operations. I really think the air drops on the GM firing operation changed the mind set, not really sure it would have made a difference in the big picture but…
Thanks, Norb.
I appreciate your perspective from your multiple visits to the site. Wish I was able to go as well but I chose the wrong line of work for jet-setting around…or driving as I don’t own a nice enough vehicle to have coincidence in getting there without breaking down! I should have been a radiology tech or something. But there is the small detail of being a woods dwelling, one step from a caged animal type, so I guess a real job wouldn’t have worked out anyway.
I want you to know that if I was capable of giving anyone a pass for being a California hybrid, I’d give it to you. Hey, at least you’re from the north. If you were So cal, then I definitely couldn’t even if I wanted to. I mean that.
Woodsman,
Thanks for the pass! Just for clarification, the last 34 years of my 38 years as a hybrid were spent working in Nevada. Of course being so close to California I spent a lot of fire time there over the years, but my Department was based in Nevada. I just live in California ( barely).
I will be at the site again this March, come on out – it would be great to meet and share information and experiences.
Funny how people read what they want to read. I insulted you and complemented you at the same time, you crazy old dog. Haha! Thank youyou for the invite but what’s rattling around in the old piggy bank is spoken for. I shoulda gone the hybrid route but I’m too stupid. Guess I didn’t want the deelux pension package…
I thought Norb is on the Nevada side?
Which might be like trying to decide which state has the worse winter…North Dakota or Minnesota?
Whoops…Norns response just showed up on my screen.
Make that…NORB’S response.
Norbert,
Yes! Air attack was completely out of bounds on their self proclaimed authority that day. What The F???
Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 4:22 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> They were planning on removing the bodies from the hill asap.
Yes, they were. No doubt.
Like it was “nobody’s business but ours”..
In both her BOOK and in her recent PUBLIC address… DJ Helm confirms both of the following…
1. Despite all the attempts by Mke Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of the SAI team to ‘hide’ the fact that Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were even THERE in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… DJ Helm comes right out and NAMES ‘Jason Clawson’ as the firefighter who first walked onto her property from the direction of the deployment site and told her of the GM deaths. Clawson told her he thought they were going to need to ‘get them out’ right away with helicopters ( with not even any thought of there needing to be an investigation first ). DJ Helm gave persmission for that… but that plan then changed to pushing in the dozer road instead because it finally dawned on the fire fighters that those bodies weren’t going anywhere until the YCSO Police did an official investigation of the death site.
2. After the fatalities… one of the ‘officials’ who came out to the BSR ( Incident within an Incident commander Todd Abel? ) came right up to them and said… (quote) “This is a big deal… and we don’t want ANYONE TO KNOW ABOUT IT”. (unquote). Even by that time, however, the news was already spreading everywhere. Jason Clawson himself had already reported the deaths over non-private radio frequencies which were being monitored by the public and the media.
That being said… I suppose it could be argued that Roy Hall still thought ‘recovery’ meant there might be survivors… since he interview statement times indicated his thinking even BEFORE he was told they were all dead…
But as for GM ‘Incident within an Incident’ commander Todd Abel requesting a ‘Type 2’ team to ‘assist with recovery’… you don’t send a bunch of ground-pounders in to a site that has casualties that need medical attention. You send in ground-pounders to just carry bodies out, ASAP.
You didn’t understand what I said or you don’t believe me: “recovery” = retrieve dead bodies. No one “recovers” survivors.
I did understand what you were saying.
I guess you didn’t read the last paragraph above.
Nobody orders up a ‘Type 2’ team of ground-pounders to go in and treat wounded people. You call them up to haul out bodies.
Some people understood they were all dead, and that there was no one else to ‘look for’.
Some did not. It took a little while longer for EVERYONE ( Air Attack included ) to realize there was NO ONE left to look for, and no one coming out alive.
Until they figured out that John Percin Jr. was so new to the crew ( Yarnell was only the second fire he’d ever been out on… with his FIRST fire being only the day before… in Skull Valley ) that his NAME wasn’t even on the GM manifest… there was general confusion about whether ALL the GM Hotshots who had showed up that morning were now ALL lying dead in the box canyon ( except for Donut ).
There was a LOT of confusion that afternoon / evening.
This is the quote in your post I was responding to:
“That being said… I suppose it could be argued that Roy Hall still thought ‘recovery’ meant there might be survivors… ”
I’m just saying he absolutely did not think that with that specific word choice. And this very strong opinion I have on that means they were circling the wagons straight out of the gate…which includes the IC that took over that day.
And I just reread your last paragraph again on your recommendation. Yes, I agree fully with that.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 5:32 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> This is the quote in your post I was
>> responding to:
>>
>> “That being said… I suppose it could be
>> argued that Roy Hall still thought ‘recovery’
>> meant there might be survivors… ”
>>
>> I’m just saying he absolutely did not think
>> that with that specific word choice.
It pays to read to the ENDS of sentences.
Context is everything.
The ACTUAL ( full ) sentence was…
“That being said… I suppose it could be argued that Roy Hall still thought ‘recovery’ meant there might be survivors… since his interview statement TIMES indicated his thinking even BEFORE he was told they were all dead…”
By only focusing on the FIRST half of the sentence… you missed the point I was making about the TIMING in his log entries…. and his ( confusing? ) ‘word choice’…
Once more for good measure…
From Type 2 IC Roy Hall’s SAIT Interview notes…
—————————————————–
17:39 ( 5:39 PM )
LOFR Dana Schimdt working with Yavapai County Sherriff Office. Working with Scott Masher, 6 lifeline helos ordered to assist with recovery.
18:29 ( 6:29 PM )
Musser called. 19 confirmed no medevac necessary.
Scene secured.
———————————————————-
See the timing now?
There is a FIFTY MINUTE SEPARATION between those two Log entries.
Almost a full-freaking HOUR of TIME elapses.
So at 5:39 PM, Roy Hall is busy ordering up 6 ( Count ’em!. SIX! ) ‘lifeline’ helicopters… and he does NOT seem to know ( yet ) that the men are all dead and those ‘medevac’ choppers will NOT be needed.
He won’t know that ( for sure ) for another FIFTY MINUTES ( according to his logs ), when OPS2 Paul Musser calls him ( at 6:29 PM ) and tells him those 6 ( Count ’em again!!… SIX! ) ‘lifeline’ helicopters he was ordering to ‘assist with recovery’ are NOT needed.
So that was the basis for me saying it (quote) “could be argued” (endquote) that at 5:39 PM, Roy Hall still thought 6 lifeline/medevac choppers were going to be needed… regardless of the fact that his log entry ends with the word ‘recovery’.
The way Roy Hall wrote that log entry… and with almost a full HOUR between the 2 log entries… it’s bizarre that someone didn’t ‘catch’ that and ask him…
“Hey Roy… wait a minute… at 5:39 PM you say you were ordering 6 ‘lifeline’ helicopters because you didn’t know they were all dead yet… but then you use the word ‘recovery’ in that log entry, almost a full HOUR before you say you found out they were dead? What’s UP with THAT?”
AND / OR…
“Which is it, Roy? Did you KNOW they were all dead, at 5:39 PM, almost an HOUR before you SAY you were ‘informed’… but you were still ordering 6 ‘lifeline’ choppers just to fly dead bodies out?… or did you really NOT know they were dead yet and you just brain-farted and wrote ‘recovery’ there in your log because you couldn’t think of another word to describe the situation?”
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> And this very strong opinion I have on that
>> means they were circling the wagons straight
>> out of the gate… which includes the IC that
>> took over that day.
I AGREE that the ‘wagon wheels were turning’ from the moment the fatality announcements went out on the radio.
They really DID think they were going to just ‘fly’ all those bodies out of there ASAP, that evening, before anyone had a chance to investigate anything.
DJ Helm even gave PNF FF Jason Clawson PERMISSION to use her BSR Ranch to accomplish that ( face-to-face ) when he told her that was ‘the plan’.
And we all know now ( all too well ) that was just the beginning of the Arizona FF ‘cabal’ thinking rules don’t ‘apply’ to them… and they are ‘above’ the law.
But just FYI ( regarding “the IC that took over that day” )…
Roy Hall remained the IC throughout the night, on June 30, 2013… and for the entire day-shift the next day, on July 1, 2013.
Clay Templin’s Type 1 team did not take over the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire until around 6:00 PM on July 1, 2013.
Followup…
Maybe this illustrates better the point I was making above…
A simple timeline… complete with the relevant Roy Hall Log entries inserted….
————————————————-
5:16 PM – DPS Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’ lifts off to begin searching for the 22 people they were told to look for.
5:39 PM – Roy Hall’s Log entry saying he just ordered “6 lifeline helos” “to assist with recovery”.
6:10 PM – ‘Ranger 58′ first spots fire shelters on the ground in the box canyon.
6:15 PM – DPS Officer/Paramedic Eric Tarr is on the ground and starts hiking to the deployment site.
6:23 PM – Officer Tarr arrives at the deployment site.
6:28 PM – Officer Tarr first informs his Dispatcher he has ’19 confirmed fatalities’ on site.
6:28 PM – PNF FF Jason Clawson radios OPS1 Todd Abel and tells him “19 confirmed dead”.
6:29 PM – Roy Hall’s Log entry saying OPS2 Musser called and told him “19 confirmed dead”.
————————————————–
So even though Roy Hall actually DID use the phrase “to assist with recovery” in his 5:39 PM Unit Log entry… it was IMPOSSIBLE for him ( or ANYONE there ) to know, at THAT time, that ALL( or even ANY ) of the GM Hotshots were dead.
It would be almost an HOUR after that ( 50 minutes ) before DPS Medic Eric Tarr himself would first make that determination out at the deployment site.
Knowing or assuming they were dead and confirming they were dead are 2 different things, friend.
Either they were dead shortly after the “mayday” calls to AA, which turned into a one sided conversation, or all of GMs radios and cell phones malfunctioned at the same time.
This may actually be evidence that more overhead knew of GMs planned move & where they were located was not going to be survivable. (Not just Cordes)
The “wagon wheels” were turning before the radio transmission confirming the deaths.
We agree. I’m simply stating that it’s worse then you think. Good catch.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 4:22 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Did these managers succeed in this plan to contaminate
>> the scene at any level?
Based on a photograph that Christopher MacKenzie took that morning, out at the anchor point, Robert Caldwall had and Oregon 450 GPS unit attached to his pack strap… and the LCD screen indicated it was, indeed, POWERED ON.
That GPS Unit vanished from the deployment site.
In his ADOSH interview, Brendan McDonough also said that Granite Mountain would normally have had at least 4 ( FOUR ) GPS Units with them on any given assignment.
No GPS Units ever entered the YCSO Police evidence chain.
Yet… in an email uncovered by InvestigativeMEDIA… we see OPS2 Paul Musser ( who ended up working as a consultant for the AZ Forestry lawyers in their fight against ADOSH ) asking SAIT Co-lead Mike Dudley “did we ever get any information off the GPS Units”..
Not “Did we ever RECOVER any GPS Units”.
He was asking Dudley “Did we ever get any data OFF them”.
Seems to indicate that Musser KNEW that Dudley DID have access to the ‘vanished’ GM GPS Units… and he was just wondering what, if anything, Dudley ever got off them.
There is also the fact that just after DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 discovered the bodies, and dropped off Medic Eric Tarr by the BSR Cattle Pond to hike to the site, Ranger 58 went back to the helibase to refuel. While there, a YCSO police Captain got onboard to fly back down with them and take photographs ( and a video ) of the deployment site.
According to testimony from the DPS officers…. he used TWO smartphones to accomplish that task ( from the air, over the deployment site ).
If there were then any ‘differences’ between what those photos / videos showed and what the YCSO detectives then photographed the next morning… there should have been ( and still should be ) hell to pay.
Apologies. Bad typo up above.
His name was “Robert Caldwell”… not “Caldwall”.
I do wish we could ‘Edit’ posts after hitting ‘Send’.
Me too, because I would delete most of mine!
FYI….my posts never sound as good on the thread as they did in my head.
Wow, what was that about Survivors–and why would they shield them. A big question mark for sure since it sounds like someone was trapped in the fire that they did not want people to see since that would give an indication of where the location of retrieval was and I would believe it would have to be a crew or members of a crew that were saved from a fire trap.
This is the year 2019–an omen that more will be revealed maybe to the point there will be closure for loved ones. With the unsolved mystery and huge amount of redaction and orders of silence there can be no closure.
I have to remember now how Trueheart was cursing about somebody burning themselves out–is there a connection there? Well too many are afraid to speak up–but that seems to be changing after the new year.
Joy,
Story’s statement:
“All the time I was listening to the radio about how DPS WAS bringing the survivors out” (my emphasis)
Sounds like he could also have meant to say “surviving family members”.
To me, “was bringing the survivors out” indicates something that was all ready occurring.
There WERE one or more family members who came to the scene after the deployment.
If the notes WERE about those family members, they would certainly need “protection” as is also mentioned in the notes. At this point, though, I think WTKTT’s response and explanation is a bit more plausible than this theory.
Interesting side story (at least it’s interesting to me) in the, “it’s a small world category,” Tom Story came over to my house when I was living in Paradise Valley (Phoenix) sometime between 1992 and 1997 (probably about 1994) while I was working as the Assistant Special Agent in Charge, for BLM Arizona and interviewed me for a book about hotshos.
Somehow he had gotten my phone number in the usual way from people who are connected to any particular culture…he got it “from a friend of
a friend” who knew me back in the day. As I have written before, I think there are only about 2 or maybe 3 degrees of separation between every wild land firefighter, including many former Wildland firefighters like me, in the nation instead of the normal “Six Degrees of Seperation” theory that is normally quoted.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation
And between old timers, there is often only one or maybe two degrees of separation. The wild land firefighting world is actually quite small and very parochial. I never heard about Tom’s book about hotshots being published, probably because hardly anybody outside of the wildland firefighting culture, had ever heard of a hotshot, much less cared about them. In fact, I didn’t hear about Tom after that until I noticed his name with some interest about 20 years later in the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
And that reminds me of something I have been meaning to share with you people, who are indeed among my closest friends and confidants (please don’t judge me too harshly, your world will shrink once you retire as well and become mostly invisible…most of the time, to most people).
Anyway…this, “Random Thought For The Day” fits into category of my “Evolving Thoughts, Theories and Pure Unadulterated Speculation Pertaining to the YHFD.” The most notable for me (as I have written before) is my evolving opinion of Eric Marsh as a man, hotshot crew boss and now the architect of the, “Greatest Blunder In Wildland Firefighting History.”
I started out as one of Marsh’s biggest defenders in the early days of this blog because I was operating solely on the information provided to me by Darrell Willis and my understanding of what kind of person it took to be a wildland firefighter in general, and a hotshot specifically, not to mention my institutionalized high opinion of hotshot crew bosses.
But…my thinking slowly evolved over about an 18 month period that was shaped primarily by the first hand knowledge and personal observations by RTS years before I knew he was in fact, one of my dear, dear…friends from back in the day. Or at least we knew each other since we were on competing hotshot crews from neighboring “forests” (USFS administrative areas) because as I have written before, hotshot crews (at least back in my day) were never brothers except after we are old former hotshots and then we develop warm and fuzzy feelings for each other in our old age and start remembering good times we never actually experienced. And oddly enough, or at least what I would think would be counter intuitive thinking, our greatest competitors as Happy Jack Hotshots, which by rights and trading should have been called the “Long Valley Hotshots”, which I liked a lot better, were actually the other hotshot crews on the Coconino N.F.
Oh…and the facts on the ground also radically changed and ultimately shaped my current opinion of Marsh. Who as I have written before, if were with me now (or more likely if I were with him at the big fire camp in the sky, or in the Great Halls of our fathers fathers) I would hug him and we would cry together, but only after I had slapped the bitch (non gender specific) out of him.
We were always competitors in what we viewed as a zero sum game where one crews’s loss, was another crew’s gain in terms of the all important reputation of each crew and long money making reputation enhancing “details”, equipment, training, fire assignments and other favors the “Fortunate Sons” and favorites of our fire gods who we loved like abused children love their abusive parents received from said fire gods …assholes, almost every one of them.
Joy asked down below what significance Alan Simpson has, or has had and I replied, “nothing he is a distraction”, just like the rest of Team Maclean. And since I have been thinking about that question, I would like to take this opportunity to expand a little more on what I meant by that.
And even though I have always had the same opinion, which I have often expressed here on this thread about welcoming all participation because we have a Big Tent with room for everyone and lots of different opinions and ideas, just as long as you are willing to present your ideas and opinions and then defend them from what will probably a rigorous vetting process that gets both heated and personal…like for example I have called RTS “one stupid fuck” in the past…several times.
Anyway, I don’t think my Big Tent theory should include NEIL, who is part of Team Maclean and in the past has mostly just made drive by flash postings which amounts to taking a dump in them middle of our House and then leaving without cleaning up after herself.
I know we (and notice I use the Royal We, since I consider myself part of the wildland firefighting culture, RTS officially confirmed my status several years ago by writing, ‘you are definitely one of us.” (and I can’t think of a better person to be confirmed by and who has more street creds than RTS, even if sometimes he is one stupid fuck…know what I mean?) we as a culture owe a debt of gratitude to both Norman and John Maclean for what has become the Gold Standard in books about wild land firefighting, ‘Young Men and Fire”, (even if it is probably all wrong based on Dr. Putnam’s recent research) and all of the other books John Maclean has written on his own.
But…I personally became deeply concerned about what I am calling Team Macclean, which includes Holly NEIL and Alan Simpson. I believe they traded their objectivity for information, access, and the blessing of the core crew families who are centered on Amanda Beni Marsh Etc. and her posse of enablers.
I never spent any time trying to track the whole alternative universe reality radio translation much less the “Random Cut Staub Theory” to prove what? Who cares…it was all bullshit? And I think as Eric Marsh’s former best friend Simpson is especially irrelevant to this process because at the end of the day, whatever book is written about the deaths of the Granite Mountain Interagency on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster that doesn’t start with Blah, blah blah, bla bla bla…bla bla”, and then end with Eric Marsh killed his crew through his criminally reckless actions….is complete and utter BULLSHIT and does nothing other than further and support the “Big Lie.”
And as I told Joy down below…we have highly developed Duties and Responsibilities on this thread with very clear Divisions of Labor. And my job is to opine, speculate, kibitz, pontificate, muse, conjecture, theorize, contemplate, hypothesize, tease, joke, kid around, post clips and photos from YouTube, my website, annoy many people, amuse some and inform a few others because even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while and generally be a pain in the ass by posting really long opinions, which I am getting ready to do by the way…I just don’t want to step on the lively discussion about the Shrine burn out or back fire or whatever it was or wasn’t, or keep The Woodsman from posting his Conspiracy Theories because…damn…he is on a ROLL!
Oh…and one more thing. Because of my unique position in life of being officially unplugged from the Matrix, living off the reservation with no plans to go back, and I don’t want or expect anything from anybody (other than the few friends I have left and an occasional word of support from the few people who are actually looking forward to reading my tome if and when I ever finish it) my job here is to repeatedly write and/or say, “Eric Marsh killed his crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster, full stop…end of story, and if you are now running a crew or will run a crew in the future, don’t be a stupid fuck like Eric Marsh and join the pantheon of “The Three Killer Wildland Firefighting Hotshot Stooges” of King, Czak and Marsh for time and all eternity in wild land firefighting history because Four Stooges (or more) won’t sound as clever.
That is all for now…please carry on as you were.
Oh…and I gave Story a hotshot belt buckle and some hotshot patches, which he should give back to me since he never wrote his stupid fucking books about hotshots.
Oh…and one more thing. I forgot…bloviate. Part of my job here is to definitely bloviate. Bloviating is one of my favorite things to do on this thread and “a man has to learn how to enjoy his work.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t9YfEZtQBtY
And if you are wondering if I have ever had an original thought? The answer is…not very damn many.
Whoops…my bad.
“…learn to take some joy in your work.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7sT-WRXhK6M
FUCKIN’ A, Please enjoy my theme song for life by putting on your ear phones and crankin’ up the volume…don’t be a pussy! (Non gender specific)
Whoops…I didn’t put the appropriate amount of emphasis on one particular sentence above.
“….our fire gods who were almost all Grade A, Class A, First Class, or World Class ASSHOLES! Who generally didn’t give a fuck about the grunts and groundpounders on the line, except for what they could squeeze out of them in the way of underpaid and under appreciated labor before they discarded them like flat tubes of toothpaste. And yes…that certainly included the fire god I loved above all others…Bill Fuckin’ Buck!
On the McClean–Neil idea–you would be correct. I lost faith in Holly when she ran a deception on Joy–she lied to Joy and was playing the friendship role to Joy but feeding Amanda. However you do not hear much from her Husband Wayne. I read him as knowing the truth and damn knowledgeable about firefighting. I think why he is so quiet. Too bad because that guy is right on honest in his work and would do much to add to this site.
Gary is right and I think we all have evolved to a better understanding of the fire but firm on the basic understanding of how a blunder was whitewashed for public viewing.
Gary,
Thanks for the kudos, My Friend … maybe ?? … being listed among your “pantheon of legendary hotshot crew bosses” because you use the same category in the same post that lists “the pantheon of ‘The Three Killer Wildland Firefighting Hotshot Stooges.’”
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476525 )
World,
in the recent re-post of the videos I did for Sonny down below
I shared to Sonny I would make this time to make this post too-
can you make your best assessment of where you assess in your own perception and beliefs where Eric Marsh and the sawyers were standing when you hear the saw go off on the radio?
Do you assume he was at the Deployment Zone? At the ranch? Near the ranch? or play I don’t know I wasn’t there
…but maybe just maybe there is someone(s) that are alive that can share and I really hope if that person exists – that he/she come to me finally in private or here in public but man do not keep holding the data … it is not worth it.. I am doing my best to feed it out…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 3:43 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> can you make your best assessment of where you assess
>> in your own perception and beliefs where Eric Marsh
>> and the sawyers were standing when you hear the saw
>> go off on the radio?
As for some of the GM ‘sawyers’…
The photos that YCSO detective Waldock took out at the deployment site are all still in this online folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAArgU431CvSi-rzU2wpYCg4a/Photos%20and%20Video/YCSO%20Waldock%20Photos?dl=0&preview=IMG_0017.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
I think it can be assumed that some of the ‘chainsaws’ that are there on the ground, at the eastern edge of the deployment site, mark the spot where some of the sawyers were working until the very last moment, and then they just ‘dropped’ their saws and retreated to the center of the deployment site to deploy their shelters.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Do you assume he ( Marsh ) was at the Deployment Zone?
>> At the ranch? Near the ranch? or play I don’t
>> know I wasn’t there
Overall… I take door number 3. ( “I don’t know, I wasn’t there” ).
But if you are accepting ‘guesses’… my best guess, based on listening closely to all the botched-MAYDAY calls, that Eric Marsh was still running TO the actual deployment site ( from wherever he actually had been out ahead of them ), and he only ARRIVED there just in time to take over the call-outs to Air Attack ‘Bravo 33’… and then make his own ( final ) radio call from the deployment site.
He still sounds ‘out of breath’ to me, in that final radio transmission, as if he had just finished hauling ass to get there ( from wherever it is he had been out ahead of them ).
Me too, I think Marsh ran from a location either at or near the Helms Ranch so he could die with his crew since surely he saw the monster fire front bearing down on them and knew he was running into the very same death chute he had repeatedly (three times) ordered his crew to descend into (over Captain Jesse Steed’s objections) following his flagging (I believe).
Reply to Gary Olson post on January 17, 2019 at 10:42 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Me too, I think Marsh ran from a location either at or near
>> the Helms Ranch so he could die with his crew
And that will always leave the gut-wrenching truth that if Marsh was near safety, out ahead of them, but still had the time to run BACK to where THEY were… then that will always mean that THEY also had the time to run the same distance TOWARDS Marsh… and ( perhaps ) survive.
The only thing Marsh should have been yelling into the radio was…
“You have to RUN!!!… FORWARD!!!…. DO IT NOW!!!!!!!”
Here is a fact about Marsh and being at the Helms–Marsh was always separate and ahead of the crew. He was fresh and tying those yellow ribbons for the crew to follow in the morning as we watched him go up the mountain to the fire edge. He was above the men as they ascended following his ribbon trail.
Then as habit would have it, when he decided to “defend the Ranch–by Willis words and training” he also left a ribbon trail. I found a ball of ribbon in the middle of the two track when Joy and I were hiking with Dr. Ted Putnam–right where they had descended from the two track to the death canyon. That would have been an extra amount of ribbon tied around a rock to let them know the place to follow ribbon down to the Helms. And as Willis said that was their destination–he should have known he was their mentor and teacher and knew what they would do. So we saw Marsh always at least a quarter mile beyond the men–he was their leader and laid out the pink ribbons that led to their final destination. So in any sense of things, Marsh was already at the ranch and when he saw trouble–or probably more accurately when Steed saw it and relayed what Woodsmans said–You Fucked us –likely added we are dead–Marsh apologized and ran back to join the ranks.
Now the puzzle reads if Marsh could have time to get back to them then why did they not run to him instead.–there should have been enough time to get to the ranch. Did Marsh tell them to deploy– I have heard that his body was seperate from the crew for some short distance. But one thing–if they could have gotten to the Ranch, then they damn sure had time to get into the middle of the boulder field only 70 yards to the south.
I’m not really sure why I’m posting these thoughts as they are pure speculation. But…
1. I think the rationale of if Marsh had time to run to GM then GM had time to run to wherever he was is too simplistic. One man vs. an entire crew. Hiker eyewitnesses also commented on his ability to move across the landscape like a deer.
2. Irrational confidence in fire shelters. We must ditch them now. Canucks got this right. (this one is fact)
3. If the crew was in fight or flight survival mode, well, they don’t appear to have taken flight, did they fight? Did one or more crew members release harbored animosity towards their superintendent? Is this why it was stressed so much how the crew stuck together as a strategy to cover-up the fact that they did Not? I still want a believable explanation for the boots up on the hill away from the main deployment site.
4. I have an advanced degree in imagineering but seriously, the scene at the deployment site may have turned real ugly in the final moments.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 22, 2019 at 11:16 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> 1. I think the rationale of if Marsh had time to run to
>> GM then GM had time to run to wherever he was is too
>> simplistic. One man vs. an entire crew.
Yes. There would have been ‘problems’. If they had still tried to do the whole ‘single file’ thing… doing that at a dead run would have been almost impossible and maybe NONE of them would have made it to where Marsh was.
If they had ‘dropped packs and run’ in an ‘every man for himself’ mode… they would ALL ( individually AND collectively ) have had a better chance.
It still would have been a ‘mad dash’… and a ‘run for your LIFE’… and all that entails.
But the fact will always remain that if a 43 year old man could cover the distance in enough time to get to THEM, then any number of younger men ( some even HALF Marsh’s age ) who were in the same ( if not even better ) physical shape than Marsh *should* have been able to cover that same distance, in the same ( or even shorter ) amount of time in the other direction.
They just didn’t even try.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> 3. If the crew was in fight or flight survival mode, well, they
>> don’t appear to have taken flight, did they fight? Did one or
>> more crew members release harbored animosity towards
>> their superintendent?
Very likely.
I still recall the moment in the MacKenzie video when Marsh said to Steed ( over the Crew Net frequency )… “I could just feel it, ya know”… and the FF standing near Steed just spits on the ground ( almost in disgust ) and says “Yea… We’ve been FEELIN’ it all day”… and the other FFs nearby all start chuckling.
That was just a glimpse into some of the crew’s NORMAL attitude about Marsh… even before he got them into deep shit that day.
So it’s not hard to imagine how disgusted they were ABOUT to get… down in a fuel-filled blind box canyon… because of HIM.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Is this why it was stressed so much how the crew stuck
>> together as a strategy to cover-up the fact that they did Not?
>> I still want a believable explanation for the boots up on
>> the hill away from the main deployment site.
If the ‘boots up on the hill’ you are referring to are the ones that were photographed sitting on a rock next to that ‘cross in the rock’ formation… then those boots were PLACED there specifically for that photograph.
That ‘cross in the rock’ formation was right there near the deployment site, in the ‘boulder field’ to the south that was ( as Sony keeps reminding us ) only about 70 yards away from where they chose to deploy.
That was all ‘staged’… because one of the FFs who was visiting the deployment site in the days following the tragedy was also a professional photographer and he thouught that would make a ‘cool’ photograph.
Darrell Willis actually submitted these ‘boots on the rock’ photographs to the SAIT along with the ones he took on June 30, 2013… but Willis didn’t take those photos. It was just the preacher wannabee in him that also thought they were cool/poignant photographs.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> 4. I have an advanced degree in imagineering but
>> seriously, the scene at the deployment site may have
>> turned real ugly in the final moments.
Again… very likely.
Especially if those men really were under the ( FALSE ) impression that Eric Marsh was ‘out there’ ahead of them and acting as their ‘forward lookout’.
The fact that they were just hiking south at their ‘regular’ pace, and not even in “double time” or “at the quick step” still indicates that they somehow thought if there was any real danger… or any real TIME concerns… that their ‘forward lookout’ ( Marsh ) would certainly let them know…. right?
I mean… surely our ‘forward lookout’ isn’t going to just let us keep hiking into a life-threatening situation… right?
Surely he will at LEAST let us know if we should even ‘hurry up’…right?
Once they were at work preparing the deployment site and fully realizing that, despite what they THOUGHT… Marsh had NOT been fulfilling his responsibility as ‘forward lookout’ for them… there’s no telling the amount of expletives that were probably flying out of their mouths.
Thanks for the leeway on my imagineering.
I think the position of the bodies as portrayed in the official investigation is b.s. I think it’s one of the reasons we’ve never seen the FARO images and evidence. I think it got real ugly down in that bowl and probably wasn’t solely yelling expletives. I think agents of PFD succeeded in altering the site to cover for their lost brothers. And…if the boots, that you are referring to in that fancy photo, are still there to this day, then I think there is more meaning to them being there than that. How does the Tarr account jive with the reported body positions?
Some of my inquiry may seem like it doesn’t matter to some but I’m establishing certain patterns for very specific reasons here.
Reply to Woodsman post January 23, 2019 at 12:56 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I think the position of the bodies as portrayed
>> in the official investigation is b.s. I think it’s one
>> of the reasons we’ve never seen the FARO
>> images and evidence. I think it got real ugly
>> down in that bowl and probably wasn’t solely
>> yelling expletives. I think agents of PFD
>> succeeded in altering the site to cover for
>> their lost brothers.
FWIW… there was always a ‘strange pattern’ in even the official diagram of where all the bodies were found, as first published at the bottom of the SAIR document.
They deployed in ( basically ) an odd ‘Horsehoe’ shape.
It has since been proven, using satellite imagery, that there was a reason for that.
There was an island of vegetation right INSIDE the center of the deployment site, and they didn’t even bother ( or simply ran out of time ) to clear that vegetation… so they ended up just deploying AROUND it.
All that vegetation was burned to cinders, and they were lying basically right next to and around it… so so much for anything they thought they were accomplishing on the perimeter(s).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> And…if the boots, that you are referring to in
>> that fancy photo, are still there to this day,
>> then I think there is more meaning to them
>> being there than that.
The ‘boots by the cross in the rock’ photos I was referring to are still sitting here, at the bottom of the folder in the public evidence record that contains Darrell Willis’ photos…
The ‘boots by the cross in the rock’ are the LAST two photos in the folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAC2NigK9EcCCvp6RZDlTHi-a/Photos%20and%20Video/Darrell%20Willis%20Photos?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
NOTE: Those ‘boots’ photos were NOT taken on June 30, 2013. It was a few days afterwards when that FF who was working the Yarnell Fire went out to the deployment site and took those photos.
And I believe this was just a ‘one shot deal’… staged for the photo. I believe the FF who took the photo used his own boots, and just took them off to take the photos, then put them back on again.
As far as I know… they were not ‘left there’… nor has anyone put another pair out there.
I’m not even sure we are talking about the same ‘boots’… but that’s the 411 on the ‘boots’ that I am aware of.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> How does the Tarr account jive with the
>> reported body positions?
Basically… DPS Officer/Paramedic Eric Tarr didn’t go into any detail about the actual ‘body positions’ at the site.
He just confirmed that all 19 were ‘together’ ( basically all in one place there ) and that the only thing he did was to ‘roll’ some of them in order to do his job and determine if they were deceased… but he also says he was careful to ‘roll them back’ into their original position(s).
From DPS Officer/Paramedic Eric Tarr’s testimony…
———————————————————–
I went back into the middle of the deployment site and raised each of the intact looking fire shelters from east to west and confirmed that each Firefighter who was inside was deceased. Each of them appeared similar with obvious rigor and no breathing or signs of life. I rolled the Firefighters back into their original position after checking them for signs of life. I double checked my count and confirmed there were 19 deceased Firefighters at this scene and 19 fire shelters.
———————————————————–
Key phrase: “19 deceased Firefighters at this scene“.
So Officer Tarr did not have to ‘walk around’ much, or go ‘far afield’ to confirm all 19 deaths ‘at that scene’. They were, in fact, all ‘right there’ in basically the same spot.
But Officer Tarr also writes…
———————————————————–
While I was taping off the south side of the scene, ( Helicopter ) Ranger 58 arrived back over the scene and advised me that they had a Yavapai County Sheriff Deputy on board and were taking aerial photographs of the scene.
———————————————————-
Only YCSO and the SAIT have ever seen THOSE ‘aerial’ photos, taken just after the GM hotshots were all confirmed dead.
( Yes… Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Brad Mayhew and the rest of the SAIT did have their own copies of these initial aerial photos/videos of the deployment site. The YCSO detective, in his own notes, says he gave them a CD that had both those images AND the ‘Faro 3D’ images taken the next morning ).
But if they were to be compared with the photos taken the next morning by the YCSO detectives, and there are then ANY noticeable differences between those two sets of photos… there should be hell to pay.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Some of my inquiry may seem like it doesn’t
>> matter to some but I’m establishing certain
>> patterns for very specific reasons here.
Copy that.
Hey Woodsman, imagineer the possibilities one of them getting injured on their way down. Also include them getting burned so badly that autopsies may not show broken bones and of course would not show soft tissue damage. Some bosses integrity wouldn’t allow themselves to second guess hauling ass back to there crew (especially if one of them were injured), whether it means death or not.
Gizmo,
Can you confirm a member of GM was injured coming down from the black towards the ranch and that held them up?
I’ve never (I hope not) run Marsh through the ringer for sacrificing himself to get back to his crew in order to attempt to help them, even if it meant a high probability of death to himself. Can’t think of a more selfless move, actually.
I’ve always held that there is way more to the story then the official reports say about GM’s move. I’d appreciate any help you can give about what really happened.
Woodsman,
I cannot confirm anything about injuries only that it’s possible and would/could be difficult to prove through autopsy. I have no documents or proof, only rationalized thoughts about it. The terrain is intense and would have been extremely dangerous to attempt to move quickly through (even without all the factors of fire& weather, pressure of thinking they could save a town, and whatever else was going through their minds). For them to gaggle up and not scatter and add the possiblity the boss ran back to them, well an injury seems probable.
And yes there will always more to the story about YHF and their last moves (there has to be), But I don’t know anything more than speculating about it. There’s just nothing out there for evidence so far that shows proof.
Thanks, Gizmo
Reply to gizmo post on January 24, 2019 at 2:13 pm
>> gizmo said…
>>
>> I cannot confirm anything about injuries
>> only that it’s possible and would/could
>> be difficult to prove through autopsy.
On the contrary.
The Granite Mountain autopsy reports have ALWAYS contained ‘evidence’ that at least one GM Hotshot ( Clayton Whitted ) suffered a serious HEAD injury THAT DAY… and not long before the deployment situation.
The autopsy report itself makes no bones about it, and calls the injuries to Whitted’s forehead BLUNT FORCE INJURIES.
As in… possibly a very bad FALL… with head injuries severe enough to have caused a concussion.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> There’s just nothing out there for
>> evidence so far that shows proof.
Yes, there is.
Well… maybe not ‘concrete proof’… but certainly ‘good evidence’ that Whitted suffered a bad FALL injury that afternoon.
From back in Chapter XXII ( 22 ) of this ongoing discussion…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-339043
——————————————————-
On June 9, 2016 at 4:24 pm,
WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
And as for the comment about the autopsy reports…
Again… the commenter does not seem to realize that some VERY important information was/is contained in those ‘reports’ that still *might* just tell us more about how it was there ended up being 19 autopsy reports in the first place.
The autopsy reports PROVED that a number of items of crucial evidence were sitting right in the shirt pockets of the men that died… and then those crucial evidence items just ‘walked out the door’ of the Medical Examiner’s office and did NOT enter the official POLICE investigator’s ‘chain of evidence’.
The autopsy reports seem to PROVE that there were no major physical injuries PRIOR to the burnover that *might* have been the reason they wasted so much time on their ‘hike’ that they became entrapped.
There WERE a number of ‘bone fractures’ reported… but ALL of them appear to have been ‘heat related’, and the Medical Examiner’s said so.
HOWEVER…
There WAS a very strange set of subdural hematomas ( deep, under the skin bruises ) on the FOREHEAD of Clayton Whitted. that cannot be explained by thermal influences. TWO separate matchbook-size bruises on either side of his forehead.
Those COULD still indicate a very serious FALL INJURY prior to the burnover… with *might* explain why they ended up wasting all that time that afternoon.
From Clayton Whitted’s AUTOPSY report…
—————————————————–
Clayton Whitted
Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4 x 3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3 x 1 cm area of right frontal subscalp hemorrhage.
DIMENSIONS…
LEFT – 4 x 3 cm area = 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch area.
RIGHT – 3 x 1 cm area = 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area.
———————————————————–
In other words.. BOTH ‘contusions’ on his forehead were about the size of a full book of matches. That could be enough to cause a ‘concussion’ equivalent FALL injury.
——————————————————–
It’s possible 2 subdural hemotomas on both frontal left & frontal right of Whitteds scalp were the result of a fall, impact, rebound injury against rocks. The larger of the bruises being the first impact while the smaller being the rebound.
WTKTT, alright Clayton Whitted had two subdural hemotomas on left and right frontal scalp that could have led to concussion, thanks for that. Clayton was found lying prone when he was recovered, did the contusions happen then? I don’t know. Woodsman’s comment about rebounding paints a possible picture. Also a concussion maybe would not lead to an incapacitated person, but leaving them seem “normal” and able to move around (I imagine NFL players running off the field after a blow to the head). Factor in the GM’s last radio calls, Clayton makes the first distress call which says he was engaged and able to pronounce words. The suggestion that a GM member was injured, for me at least, implies an ankle, knee, leg and even through the autopsy resport seems to “prove” there were no major physical injuries proves nothing. Because they were burned so badly it seems there is no way to tell the difference between predeployment injuries and those sustained while they were burned. Bone and soft tissue. Unfortunately this topic may be speculated about until the end of time.
well Gizmo- we must know the same folks
because I too know about the injuries-
Now if I was not there then how did I get that knowledge
From folks who are good people just trying to go forward not go along to get along but really if they are close to people who made the movie on this and they come to me and weep then that says something
If you are friends of Amanda or Willis or Musser or Morin or Abel or Steinbrink or any of those folks who were there and you still need to share- I have proven to folks from IM to people off here- I take what you tell me and do my best to find the documents to back it up…your tears are heard and I have followed through and I have not thrown any person under the bus with their intimate massive pains and info.
I just know documents matter!
But I, too, gizmo know about more than one injury on that Sunday that has not yet surfaced-
I like to take stuff and make it shelved until all documents are ready than share it on my blog but I am one person in an unorganized way of things so it is not being brought out like I would prefer…
but yes…there is other areas that were happening…just hope that person knows I am very near to telling their story and NO I WONT GIVE YOU THE HEADS UP to fact check notify because YOU are the one I won’t need to do that with…You will not get that fair chance. It will happen like the Vatican story for you…
what role does Sinclair’s powerpoint play for June 30, 2013 from here?:
http://johnmacleanbooks.com/yarnell/sinclair.shtml
the chain-sawed stobs (8452/8458) including several large bushes/trees disturbed by dozer photos ( 7054/8822/7412) and the actual gps location map of these photos taken of the stobs and dozer disruption
were they (cutting actions) a part of an operational planning June 30 2013? (IMT/GMHS?/etc unknowns) or was it a last ditch effort to cut line or die like the Genghis Khan Hotshot tshirts states-
.
Little after the 12 minute mark of a facebook video called “Honoring The Brave” – Returning the Favor Alan stated on that video he was there as he nodded yes and said “yeah” when Mike Rowe stated so you were there as he looked at Alan and Alan said for IC training – peer supporter
Alan SInclair never was in the SAIR interviews
yet I have public records with photos showing YES HE WAS THERE as he stated on that facebook video referenced above that he was – it is probably one of the hardest photos for me because of his body language. Makes me horribly sad.
I sometimes wonder if the people who gave me public records who redacted some areas and not other areas really knew who I was and that I am here to get the stuff public
Some day my post will show all I got about Alan Sinclair and his accounts and photos on just public documents alone…
Actually many people will not be kept aside…too many are to be pushed to the front… too many
Yet go look at the powerpoint and go look at Google Earth and start pondering versus going back to the drawing board…
Are these stobs and cut brush near the Helms (Boulder Springs Ranch) (BSR) evidence of one leg or another leg of the Sesame Street to Shrine Corridor? was this an IMT connection or Div A connection? I think the stobs matter for another reason than what is placed public but I am not yet willing to go there but I will in an official post some day with more documents.
Go assess it yourself-
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 4:51 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Little after the 12 minute mark of a facebook video called
>> “Honoring The Brave” – Returning the Favor Alan ( Sinclair ) stated
>> on that video he was there as he nodded yes and said “yeah” when
>> Mike Rowe stated so you were there as he looked at Alan and
>> Alan said for IC training – peer supporter
Probably more ‘peer supporter’ than ‘IC training’.
There is no proof that he was ever ‘assigned’ for any kind of ‘IC Training’ at the 2013 Yarnell fire.
Alan Sinclair’s name never appears in any official ‘Resource Order’ for the 2013 Yarnell Fire… and his name doesn’t appear anywhere in ANY of the published IAP documents for Yarnell, starting with the very first one that was ever published, at about 9:00 PM the night of the tragedy itself.
Clay Templin’s Type 1 Team did not officially take over the 2013 Yarnell fire until about 6:00 PM on July 1, 2013, the day AFTER the tragedy.
For the entire night-shift and the next day-shift following the tragedy, Roy Hall’s Type 2 Team was still in charge.
But Alan Sinclair is never listed in ANY ‘IAP’ for Yarnell, not even as any kind of ‘Trainee’ ( Even though many other ‘Trainees’ in both Roy Hall’s one-and-only IAP and then all of Clay Templin’s subsequent IAPs ).
Here are the links for the Yarnell IAP documents.
It’s one big PDF file… but the TOP of the document is that one-and-only IAP that Roy Hall did and published the night of the tragedy.
Clay Templin’s IAP documents cover the time period from July 2 through July 4.
The document actually ALSO has all the ‘IAP’s for the SAIT investigation itself.
In the public evidence folder…
SAIT\Dropbox\Documentation\Planning\”D01-D06 – ASF000421-INV to 501-INV.pdf”
Link to folder containing the document in the SAIT evidence dropbox…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAuveDtgSZp9TqxPIAnyHRSa/Planning?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Direct link to the document itself…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAuveDtgSZp9TqxPIAnyHRSa/Planning?dl=0&preview=D01-D06+-+ASF000421-INV+to+501-INV.pdf&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Followup…
In June of 2016, Alan Sinclair made a PUBLIC comment ( on Facebook ) and said he had been…
( quote ) “intimately involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire, where 19 firefighters lost there lives” ( endquote )
He also stated ( publicly ) that this caused him to suffer PTSD and it almost ended his wildland firefighting career.
https://www.facebook.com/sedonayogafestival/posts/thank-you-marc-titus-and-heather-shere%C3%A9-titusduring-fire-season-2012-marc-and-i-/1015227261906551/
————————————————————————————-
Facebook PUBLIC comment
From: Alan Sinclair
To: Sedona Yoga Festival
Date: June 24, 2016
Thank you Marc Titus and Heather Shereé Titus!
During Fire Season 2012, Marc and I were on the Mustang Complex on the Salmon Challis National Forest. One day I saw Marc parked in a meadow and I swung in to chat with him. He was considering quitting his career as a wildland firefighter and had a dream to bring yoga into the wildland community. I supported his dream because he seemed very passionate about it. At that time I didn’t realize that Marc had experienced a traumatic event during the Iron 44 Complex in 2008. Yoga was helping him cope and he wanted to share that with first responders.
I knew about the Iron 44 Complex because 9 firefighters were killed in a helicopter crash, it was the deadliest crash of its kind in U.S. wildfire fighting history. I didn’t know my friend had been there.
The Mustang Complex was Marc’s last assignment, he quit fighting fires and started the Sedona Yoga Festival. I stopped by and visited Marc and Heather during the inaugural festival in the spring of 2013. I had no idea that I would soon benefit from what they had to offer. I had never done yoga and wasn’t planning to.
Three months later I was intimately involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire, where 19 firefighters lost there lives, including people I knew.
My experience caused PTSD.
My world was rocked and I was unsure if I would continue my career.
Marc invited me back to the festival in 2014, I went but didn’t find anything for me. In 2015 he invited me back again. They were putting together a group of yoga instructors that would learn how to interact with first responders and people with PTSD. I forced myself to give it another try and actually got on a mat for the first time. It was a great experience, and I was able to really relax again.
I still haven’t adopted a routine but I do use some of the breathing techniques and try to practice mindfulness. This became very valuable two weeks ago when my Incident Management Team was assigned to go back to Yarnell. I actually had to go back to the place I experienced my
trauma and be in charge of a large, complex fire. This was an extreme challenge. I had to talk on camera worried I might show emotion. I had to insure safety of firefighters in a place that haunted me. A lot of my peers and friends reached out to me to offer support. I don’t think anyone could believe Yarnell was on fire again.
Marc texted me with a message “Breathe”. And that’s what I did.
I used the tools that I learned at the Sedona Yoga Festival, a consciousness evolution conference. I successfully completed the assignment.
I am stronger today than I was prior to Yarnell, I have experienced Post Traumatic Growth. I really appreciate the support from my friends
Marc and Heather, they are doing some good things!
———————————————————————————–
I really don’t think even a jump-the-shark fiction writer could dream up the cast of characters in this national
tragedy-meets-reality-TV-show spectacular festival of just plain weird “stuff.” As in…”Keep The Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster Weird!” because their editor and publishing company would reject this story line which is a nightmare gift from Hell that just keeps on giving. IMHO.
And now…a friggin’ Yoga Festival for traumatized PTSD wild land firefighters? What ever happened to the good ole days when the policy was, “Suck It Up and Get Out There and Mop Up What’s Left Of The Fire…WTF Is Wrong With You?”
WTF…Over?
Oh…and one more thing.
Woodsman,
That post is irony…I think?
I mean…just as a reminder, the day after the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster, the BLM Fire Team had us back up on the slope mopping up the fire around the flagging that marked where the bodies had been removed from the previous day, after we were the crew who had ignited the burn out that killed them.
And then after we got back home to the Coconino, Bill Buck brought our entire hotshot crew into a conference room at the Forest Supervisor’s Office, where we had never been before. We had never been to the Forest Suoervisor’s Office, not just the conference room…to meet with just him alone, not even our District FMO who was our “boss”, was there with us and Buck. During that meeting, Buck ordered to order us to never talk about the Battlement Creek Fire, or what happened there to anyone and not to even discuss the disaster among ourselves.
And then without telling us, they took us out of crew rotation for fire assignments for the rest of the fire season, even though the Battlement Creek Fire had happened in early July and in effect…kept us on ice at our remote and isolated duty station until about half of us went back to college and finally the rest of the crew were all laid off for the winter.
And we didn’t think there was anything wrong with any of that, or question anything that they said or did because we were hotshots from the Mighty Coconino because that’s what we did and who we were….I guess? We were faithful and loyal grunts and groundpounders who were unquestionably , obedient to our fire gods and we didn’t ask questions nor did we expect any answers.
So…we spent the rest of the fire season stacking a lot of sticks on straight pay for the season and we never even noticed something was amiss, or at least I didn’t and nobody that I knew us did either Nor did we ever mention the fire again, even among ourselves or talk about the fire to anyone, which was actually very easy because nobody cared or was asking us any questions anyway. Nobody gave a fuck about Mormon Lake and we didn’t either. The Vietnam vets had already taught us to joke about crispy critters as in…that was a species we wanted to avoid becoming ourselves, other than that, .it was the cost of doing business…I guess. I don’t really fuckin’ know because it was just my second season as a hotshot? I had already been trained and conditioned to keep my fuckin’ mouth shut and just do what I was told to do., which I thought was okay…or at least I didn’t have a problem with the concept.
And now we have Goat Yoga Confeences for wild land firefighters with PTSD? Now…I do question that concept and find it a little…weird?
Don’t they provide grief counselors and time off to everyone who needs or wants one?
Whoops…I misspoke.
Oddly enough…the only people who gave a fuck about what happened to the Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew was the local volunteer fire department and citizens of Rifle Colorado and the surrounding area who held benefits and built monuments to not only the crew, but to the sorry bomber pilot who was had watched impact on a ridge behind us the day before after he flew at less than 500 AGL right over our heads in what was supposed to be a drop run.
But I never found out about what the local people had done to honor and remember those who were killed for the next 30 years until the BCFD Staff Ride.
Fuck me….SLURRY bomber pilot.
And there are probably some people who find my attitude to be…unacceptable.
And I get that…I really do.
But to those people and everyone else I say…after a lifetime you don’t get to change the rules on me. I didn’t make up those rules…but I did live by them.
And now…those are my rules. Change the rules for the next generation as you have…but you don’t get to change the rules you made up for me. Fuck you,!
Oh…and one more thing.
Yes…the entire YHFD investigation was one gigantic Cluster Fuck from the very beginning.
And here is ONE more example that hasn’t been talked about.
Do you know why a competent police department wouldn’t let a directive investigate the deaths of his own family members in his own home, guard the crime scene overnight and then remove the bodies of his family members? And do you know why no competent prosecutirs office would allow a prosecutor to oversee or handle the prosecution into who if anyone, to charge with a crime?
Yes…that’s correct. It’s because it would be INAPPROPRIATE to conduct business that way because if the appearance of a conflict of interest even if no actual conflict exists.
Oh…and to remove personal feelings and emotion from the incident that will taint any later outcome….that’s why.
Gee whiz…is anybody really surprised that in the land of good old boy, mountain hillbilly inbreds…that is EXACTLY the way they handled the YHFD incident.
And now gadfly and semi professional fuck off Simpson wants me to sponsor his Goat Yoga classes and feel soory for him because his best friend and peer counselor killed his own crew? Sorry…that’s not goin’ to happen.
Simpson, Willis, Danny Parker and Three Stooges from the Prescott National Forest were just five people who had NO business being out there at that crime scene.
I know….I’m an asshole, blame it on my up bringing on a hotshot crew by the U.S. Forest Service.
Well…I guess technically three plus three equals six.
But remember…I am a mountain inbred hillbilly cracker that did start my career on the Prescott National Forest. So…
Yes, it’s pretty far out there, man. Oh, and it’s Sinclair….fucking Sinclair. Haha!
You mean Buck didn’t order massages for you all & serve you herbal tea? What’s up with that?
Abso-fucking-lutely you are 100% correct – none of those muni-shysters should have been allowed within a mile of that potential crime scene much less given the opportunity to totally & thoroughly CONTAMINATE the entire area of concern. I believe these people were gettin their story straight before they even located the bodies. Count on it.
I’ve got a special message for them: it ain’t gonna work. We’re gonna crack this one for sure but I want you to know that had you done the right thing in the 1st place, this wouldn’t have been so hard for you to deal with. It’s all coming down now.
The problem with irony is that not everyone gets it.
Alan Sinclair inserts himself into the Yarnell situation to do ‘peer support’.
He ends up with PTSD himself, so bad he almost ends his career.
Sounds like they forgot to arrange ‘peer support’ for the ‘peer-support.’
Nope, you didn’t get it. Although if Sinclair was there for peer support that would be ironic. His peer died with his men. That must have been difficult to deal with and could give someone PTSD.
I was more thinking that you just made a judgment absent evidence being available (“probably peer support”), while doing that is highly frowned upon by you. There’s no available evidence that he was there for peer support either. Is there any evidence he was there at all? But you know he was.
Translate this to the idea that there were burnouts that occurred on the Yarnell Hill fire that never made the official record.
I highly suspect Joys picture of 2 firefighters on the ridge was of Marsh and his good friend Sinclair. THAT would be an example of intimate involvement (that he admitted to himself very publicly) on the Yarnell Hill fire wouldn’t it? Sure it would.
My belief is once this fire got to be a nice big one, members of the cabal came out of the woodwork to get involved for various reasons. Sinclair was there apparently for peer support & IC training. How can you say he wasn’t? The Yarnell hill fire is one huge block of swiss cheese, both operationally AND the coverup after the fact!!!
Reply to Woodsman post on January 19, 2019 at 5:05 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Nope, you didn’t get it. Although if Sinclair was
>> there for peer support that would be ironic.
>> His peer died with his men. That must have been
>> difficult to deal with and could give someone PTSD.
>>
>> I was more thinking that you just made a judgment absent
>> evidence being available (“probably peer support”),
>> while doing that is highly frowned upon by you.
>>
>> There’s no available evidence that he was there
>> for peer support either.
>>
>> Is there any evidence he was there at all?
>> But you know he was.
( Heavy sigh )
Didn’t you read the comment from Joy that I was actually responding to… about Alan Sinclair’s video-taped interview?
It was Alan Sinclair HIMSELF who said, ON CAMERA, to TV Show Host Mike Rowe, that he was (quote) “there for peer support”.
Last time I checked… video-taped ( and non-deleted ) interviews where you can actually WATCH words coming right out of people’s mouths are, in fact, ‘evidence’.
Prescott ENews
Article. Title: Mike Rowe Returns the Favor at Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park. Published: 17 April 2018
Published: April, 17 2018
https://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/31817-mike-rowe-returns-the-favor-at-granite-mountain-hotshots-memorial-state-park
The ‘source’ for the article was actually a ‘Press Release’ from Arizona Govenor Doub Ducey’s office… which also has a link to the same video…
The Office of Arizona Governor Doug Ducey
News Releases
Page Title: Mike Rowe Returns the Favor at Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park
Published: April 17, 2018
https://azgovernor.gov/governor/news/2018/04/mike-rowe-returns-favor-granite-mountain-hotshots-memorial-state-park
As Joy pointed out above… at +11:30 into the video begins Mike Rowe’s ‘visit’ to the Prescott Fire Station, and his on-camera interviews with both Darrell Willis and Alan Sinclair.
** VIDEO TRANSCRIPT
This is a full transcript of the video segment where Mike Rowe and his producer visit the Prescott Fire Department ( Station ) and meet face-to-face with Alan Sinclair and Darrell Willis…
P: Producer
—————————————————————–
+11:30
P: So we’re gonna head over to Prescott Fire Station right now. We’re gonna meet with our insiders Darrell and Alan. Darrell and Alan both were with the guys when they were at the Yarnell Fire.
Mike Rowe: Whadda ya mean… “with them”?
P: When they passed away, Darrell and Alan spent the night with them and then got their bodies out of the canyon the next day.
Mike Rowe: Hell of a thing.
P: It is. Allright guys, we just landed ( arrived). We’re comin’ in.
Mike Rowe: Are we authorized?
P: Better be. Here we come.
Mike Rowe: I’m not even sure we’re personnel.
( They enter the Fire Station and Darrell Willis and Alan Sinclair are there to meet them )
P: Hi guys. How’s it goin’.
Darrell Willis: Hey
P: Good to see ya.
Alan Sinclair: Mike… Alan Sinclair… how ya doin’.
( More greetings )
Mike Rowe: Alan. Darrell. I got it.
P: Mike, these guys have been really instrumental in lettin’ us know a lot about the story.
Mike Rowe: I just met Roxanne and Deborah.
Darrell Willis: Great women with great hearts.
Mike Rowe: Yea. Those ladies are doing something that goes beyond talking.
Darrell Willis: You know they have a passion. It is a tragedy, but there’s some… a lot of good comin’ out of it.
Mike Rowe: If I understand what they are trying to do… uh… awareness… which is why we’re here… will help.
Darrell Willis: Absolutely.
Mike Rowe: The problem… is it money fueled by awareness?
Darrell Willis: You know… uh… we compete for budgets. From my perspective, I want all the money. Ya know… I don’t want it to go to Parks and Rec. Firefighters need that money.
Mike Rowe: Zero sum game.
Darrell Willis: But that’s not… uh…
Mike Rowe: That’s not how it works.
Darrell Willis: …how it works out. The decision makers need to be a little more in touch with those that have lost loved one.
Mike Rowe: So… you were… you were there. You were there that night… that next day?
Alan Sinclair: I was going through my Incident Commander training… so I came in as a… a peer supporter… and, uh… we spent some time together.
Darrell Willis: So I was there. I was the Division Chief over the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Mike Rowe: Yea.
Darrell Willis: So… and then… we spent the night… there… with them… and then… uh… respectfully… like any brother firefighter would… removed their remains the next morning. Think about it five years later… man… I don’t know how… you know. I just think my faith… my faith in god helped me get through… from point A to point B.
Mike Rowe: Yea.
END OF FIRE STATION INTERVIEW SEGMENT
——————————————————————-
Key part…
———————————————————-
Mike Rowe: So… you were… you were there. You were there that night… that next day?
Alan Sinclair: I was going through my Incident Commander training… so I came in
as a… a peer supporter… and, uh… we spent some time together.
———————————————————–
Alan Sinclair was, in fact, working on his ‘Incident Commander’ taskbook in June of 2013, but he was doing that with SWCG Type 2 Team Leader Bea Day. Sinclair apparently got caught up in that fiasco where Roy Hall tried to go to a Type 2 team ( Bea Day’s ) in ‘off the ROSS system’ mode… and some calls went out for people on that team to come to Yarnell ( Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, Aaron Hulburd, Alan Sinclair, etc. ).
But that never happened.
Roy Hall jumped the gun, and Glen Joki and others decided to jump from Hall’s Type 2 SHORT team straight to Clay Templin’s Type 1 team.
So all those ‘Bea Day’ team people that thought they were coming to Yarnell to actually do paid work got caught in the middle of this fiasco.
Bea Day’s team never took over the fire and Alan Sinclair never did any ‘IC Training’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire at all.
So that is why I used the word ‘Probably’ with regards to his only reason for being there at all was to provide “peer support”… as he, HIMSELF, said he did.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Translate this to the idea that there were burnouts
>> that occurred on the Yarnell Hill fire that never
>> made the official record.
Okay… I will.
For this particular ‘apples and oranges’ issue…
We have Sinclair HIMSELF, in a non-deleted video, telling us why he was in Yarnell.
There is no such equivalent ( non-deleted ) evidence of any extensive ‘manual burnouts’ on the Yarnell end of the fire on June 30, 2013.
Not yet, anyway.
For now… it’s all still only ‘suggestive’ evidence.
I’m still not saying they didn’t happen ( manual burnouts ).
It just remains to be PROVEN whether they did ( or not ).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I highly suspect Joys picture of 2 firefighters
>> on the ridge was of Marsh and his good friend Sinclair.
>> THAT would be an example of intimate involvement (that
>> he admitted to himself very publicly) on the Yarnell
>> Hill fire wouldn’t it? Sure it would.
See above regarding Bea Day’s Type 2 team.
It’s unlikely Sinclair was in Yarnell that morninig, when the photo was taken.
Roy Hall didn’t even try to start bumping up to Bea Day’s ‘Type 2’ team ( with Sinclair doing IC training with Bea ) until around NOON that day… long after Joy took her photo.
When this same ‘Mike Rowe’ video was discussed earlier in this IM Chapter, I asked RTS that very question about WHEN Sinclair actually arrived in Yarnell and he seemed to know the answer…
…that Alan Sinclair did NOT arrive in Yarnell until AFTER the deployment…
—————————————————————–
On April 26, 2018 at 3:43 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
From what I know, Sinclair was NOT there prior to the burnover and fatalities.
He was allegedly ordered as a Type 2 IC (T), however, once the fatalities occurred, he was assigned as a CISM (Critical Incident Stress Management), a position highly stressed to be filled in these situations these recent past years.
He did NOT spend the entire night at the fatality site.
It seems kinda cheesy that they would both ( he and Willis ) claim they spent the night with the GMHS but instead spent the night in the comfort of the BSR.
—————————————————————-
SIDENOTE: Despite what RTS said… there is still no evidence that Alan Sinclair was ever ‘hired’ to do anything at all at the Yarnell Fire. There are NO ‘Resource Records’ that bear his name in what AZ Forestry released and said was “the complete list of Resources” for the ENTIRE Yarnell Fire.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> My belief is once this fire got to be a nice big one,
>> members of the cabal came out of the woodwork to get
>> involved for various reasons.
In a way.. that’s true.
Plus… it was a SUNDAY! ( Oooooh!… OVERTIME! YEAH! )
People were ‘comiing out of the woodwork’, and the resource ordering got all confused and screwed up… because of Roy Hall’s bullshit attempt to just ‘ramp up’ his Type 2 team OUTSIDE of the ROSS ordering system.
All the people he was ‘summoning’ to come help him ( over the phone ) ended up in ‘limbo land’ when it was decided to just go from Hall’s bullshit Type 2 SHORT team straight to Clay Templin’s Type 1 team.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Sinclair was there apparently for peer support & IC training.
>> How can you say he wasn’t?
See above. He said it himself.
However… as I also said… he ‘Probably’ only ended up doing the ‘peer support’ part because Bea Day’s team never took over the fire, and there is no evidence he ever had any ‘IC Training’ assignment at the Yarnell Fire. Not with IC Hall, Bea Day, Clay Templin… or ANYONE.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The Yarnell hill fire is one huge block of swiss
>> cheese, both operationally AND the
>> coverup after the fact!!!
I agree.
Even if no firefighters had died… it would still remain the ‘poster child for how NOT to go about fighting a wildfire.
And with regards to a classic ‘coverup’… talk about the ‘poster child’ for now NOT to do that, as well.
Their ‘Coverup’ is ( and always has been ) just one big piece of Swiss Cheese, as well.
I wanted to see if I could name one of the GMHS loved ones and that hike that happened – I can state factually there is more stobs then what Holly and Alan showed on their powerpoint near same area…it would be nice if it was as you say WTKTT and just share as you get it but I also seen what my sharing gets from local powers-
but there is more missing data to that specific area behind the Helms.
Needs those people to speak up-
Reply to Joy A Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 6:04 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I can state factually there is more stobs then what
>> Holly and Alan showed on their powerpoint near
>> same area.
Where?… and when did you find them?
Were they sort of ‘aligned’ along the dozer push from the Helms Ranch out to the deployment site, like the ones Holy and Alan found… or were they more ‘spread out’ than that?
Joy ask, “what role does Sinclair’s powerpoint play for June 30, 2013 from here?:”
IMHO…nothing. Sinclair is just a distraction associated with the other distractions of Team Maclean & NEIL.
Here is a 1995 research paper by Dr. Ted Putnam well worth reading with very interesting insights into human factors and human errors and the reluctance of investigations to delve into these causal factors.
THE COLLAPSE OF DECISIONMAKING AND ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE ON STORM KING MOUNTAIN
Ted Putnam, Ph.D.
USDA Forest Service
Missoula Technology and Development Center
February 1995
“Stress, fear, and panic predictably lead to the collapse of clear thinking and
organizational structure. While these psychological and social processes have
been well studied by the military and the aircraft industry (Cockpit Resource
Management) (Weick 1990 and Wiener, Kanki, and Helmrich 1993), the wildland
fire community has not supported similar research for the fireline. The fatal
wildland fire entrapments of recent memory have a tragic common denominator:
human error. The lesson is clear: studying the human side of fatal wildland fire
accidents is overdue.
“Historically, wildland fire fatality investigations focus on external factors
like fire behavior, fuels, weather, and equipment. Human and organizational
failures are seldom discussed. When individual firefighters and support personnel
are singled out, it’s often to fix blame in the same way we blame fire behavior or
fuels. This is wrong headed and dangerous, because it ignores what I think is an
underlying cause of firefighter deaths – the difficulty individuals have to
consistently make good decisions under stress.
“There’s no question individuals must be held accountable for their performance. But the fire community must begin determining at psychological and social levels why failures occur. The goal should not be to fix blame. Rather, it should be to give people a better understanding of how stress, fear, and panic combine to erode rational thinking and how to counter this process. Over the years, we’ve made substantial progress in modeling and understanding the external factors in wildland fire suppression and too little in improving thinking, leadership, and crew interactions.”
“Everyone agrees our top priority should be reducing the number of entrapments by practicing safety and LCES. But we also need to face the reality that on average 30 firefighters are trapped each season, and that we have not taught them how to escape or to use fire shelters effectively, or the concepts discussed here. Clearly, firefighters need this type of training. Better personal and interpersonal skills will enable firefighters to optimally use all their training and experience under risky, stressful conditions.”
” … to be adequately prepared requires training, overlearning, and using these skills routinely before a crisis strikes. It is also clear these skills are a necessary prerequisite for effective decisionmaking concerning integrating fire behavior, weather, fuels, equipment, and human factors.”
“The real issue is that we are not preparing our firefighters and managers to operate with maximal effectiveness under known stressful, risky conditions.”
“Be especially wary of accepting increments of worsening conditions. It is deceptive to accept the increments rather than the entire change.”
Kinda prescient and somewhat scary stuff, considering that most of the things discussed in this paper related to the YH Fire on June 30, 2013.
( http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usda/blm_putnam_storm_king.pdf )
Brian Frisby email quote regarding Yarnell Hill Fire: “…………human factors were off the chart that day……..”
IMHO…those are by far the most important words uttered by anyone in relationship to the the deaths of the crew on the YHFD.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
January 16, 2019 at 4:21 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You posted: “And just so everyone understands where that puts us now.”
>>
>> What I posted along with Joy and Sonny – the June 30, 2013, weekend
>> eyewitnesses, from the beginning of this IM website, along with Norb
>> and Woodsman have been holding this line.
>>
>> It is not a “theory” and what appeared in the video that disappeared,
>> like so many other YH Fire pieces of evidence, is factual.
There have always been ‘suspicions’ that some manual burnouts might have taken place in the Yarnell area ( on June 30, 2013 ), even AS the main fire was coming into town… but when I used the word ‘now’, I was referring to the most recent discussions about this mysterious video… and all the recent ASSERTIONS ( including your newest one just above ) that it is a FACT.
Even without there being any new ( verifiable ) evidence to support the ‘theory’.
That feels like ‘new’ territory, and worthy of further discussion.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Just because these witnesses speak of only seeing 2 FFs in the video does
>> not preclude there being more in the firing operation. It is only what was
>> seen and remembered in the video as well as where it allegedly “ended” in the video.
Yes. I get it. The other ‘assertion’ on the table now seems to be that whatever was seen in the video that vanished was just the ‘end’ of a much longer burnout operation that started somewhere else ( like out on the dozer-line? Further west into Harper Canyon? Both? )
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> “You are talking now about a much larger, lengthier and time-consuming operation.”
>>
>> EXACTLY! However, it is not just now, it’s been going on for a while, here
>> and on Joy’s website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com )
Ok. Fine. But you DO realize that increasing the size and complexity of this ‘operation’ just makes it harder and harder to balance this ‘theory’ against ALL of the other existing ( non-deleted ) video and photographic evidence, correct?
I mean… you DO know that there ARE photographs of the Blue Ridge Hotshots out on that dozer-line taken as late as 3:30 PM that day, and shortly before they completely evacuated that area, right?
And they are ALONE out there, and they are NOT ‘lighting anything up’, nor is there any ‘fire’ whatsoever seen along that dozer line?
Zero. Zip. Nada.
So depending on WHEN you think this ‘larger, lengthier and time-consuming’ operation even started…. things get increasingly complicated, evidence-wise.
It’s still going to have to ‘fit’ into a timeframe where there is already KNOWN ( verifiable ) evidence of when it certainly was NOT happening.
And regarding your reference to the ‘yarnellhillrevelations’ BLOG site…
Can you specify WHICH posts over there you are talking about which are relevant to THIS discussion?
I believe I have read all the posts over there, at this point, and I can’t recall any that were presenting any evidence that wasn’t just more ‘conjecture’ about what MIGHT have happened.
Maybe I missed something over there?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> “The Blue Ridge Hotshots are the only ones known to have EVER
>> been working ( on foot ) out on that dozer-line.”
>>
>> The BRHS are the only ones officially SAIT-SAIR “known” to have been
>> working out on the dozer line.
See above regarding existing ( non-deleted ) photographs taken by Blue Ridge Hotshots.
They were out there by themselves.
If some ‘secret squad’ showed up there to start ‘lighting shit up’… it had to have happened after these photos were taken, and probably after Blue Ridge left the dozer-line since NONE of them mention ever seeing anyone else out there.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Working on the dozer line and engaging in a firing operation in
>> that area are two different operations.
Well, I would call both things simply ‘working on the dozer-line’, regardless of what ‘work’ was being performed… but I get your attempt at semantics.
In any case… the whole issue is WHEN this ‘firing operation’ could have possibly happened, and still have it ‘fit’ into the existing ( non-deleted ) evidence.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> “Are you saying you now believe they have ALL been liars… in ALL of
>> their testimony and Unit Logs… and they really did set fire to that dozer-line that day?”
>>
>> Where is it posted that I believe “they have all been LIARS”?
>> First off, who is “they”?
I would have thought it was obvious what I was asking you… but maybe ( to help you out ) I should have reiterated ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ in that paragraph, even though that’s who I had just referred to in the preceding paragraph.
Does this rewrite make it more clear what I was asking?…
“Are you saying you now believe the Blue Ridge Hotshots have ALL been liars… in ALL of their testimony and Unit Logs… and they really did set fire to that dozer-line that day?”
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Everywhere in the BRHS unit logs and notes and statements, it clearly
>> mentions otherwise.
My turn to not ‘grok’ something you just said.
‘Otherwise’ what?
What ALL of the Blue Ridge Hotshots photos, videos, testimony and Unit Logs establish is that they never even attempted to burn out that dozer-line that day.
This is why I was asking you if you now think they actually DID do that… which ( if that is the case ) would mean you are NOW calling ALL of them ( The Blue Ridge Hotshots ) LIARS.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> There is and has been strong suggestive evidence of what
>> Hybrid FFs were involved that firing operation that day.
‘Suggestive’ evidence does not a FACT make.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> More to follow …
I certainly hope so… because there isn’t enough available ( yet ) to really draw any full conclusions about all this.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> One of the FFs involved in this operation told me that they were
>> directed by their agency supervisors to not discuss the YH Fire
>> with anyone except the SA Investigation Team.
Ah…. okay… so some ‘secret’ group of ‘Hybrid FF’s just snuck out there onto the dozer line ( AFTER the Blue Ridge Hotshots had stopped taking photographs out there and AFTER they had evacuated the dozer-line ) and they ‘lit it up’, then somehow got out of there without either burning ‘themselves’ up… or anyone detecting them… and they have all been hiding what they did from everyone but Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Brad Mayhew and the rest of the SAIT?
And this can all fit into some timeframe that would balance such a narrative ( successfully ) against all the existing ( non-deleted ) evidence?
Just trying to make sure I have the parameters of this ‘task at hand’ correct.
Where’s that popcorn?
I mean… yea… there WERE Engines / Crews that WERE actually part of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s ‘Task Force 2’ for which there have ( mysteriously ) NEVER been any actual ‘Resource Orders’, so we don’t even know who the crews were.
Example: Glendale Brush Truck E-156 ( Two door modified pickup with a tank and some hoses ). It is SEEN parked at the Shrine Youth Camp alongside Tyson Esquibel’s White-and-Yellow Glendale FD command vehicle… and it is SEEN coming OUT of the Youth Camp area in Aaron Hulburd’s video M2U00264… but there has NEVER been a ‘Resource Order’ associated with this Glendale Engine 156.
Just like there was never a ‘Resource Order’ for Prescott National Forest ( USFS ) employee Jason Clawson… it would seem like someone wanted to ALSO ‘hide’ the fact that Glendale Engine 156 was ever even ‘there’ in Yarnell, on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
But regardless… just the fact that a ‘Resource Order’ is ‘missing’ still doesn’t mean this mysterious ‘Engine 156’ had anything to do with any ‘burnouts’ that day.
MORE evidence would have to see the light of day.
Followup…
Forgot to mention regarding your ‘yarnellhillfirerevelations’ BLOG reference…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> A visit to Joy’s post will help.
>> “Part Two – Who Do We Continue to Distinguish And Read
>> About as the Likely Participants in the Undeniable Sesame
>> to Shrine Corridor Fuel / Fire Break Possible Firing Operation?”
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/08/18/Part-2-of-Who-Do-We-Continue-to-Distinguish-And-Read-About-as-the-Likely-Participants-in-the-Undeniable-Sesame-to-Shrine-Corridor-Fuel-Fire-Break-Possible-Firing-Operation
I HAVE read that BLOG post. Part 1 as well.
Is there a ‘Part 3’, or something?… because, as I already stated, there really is nothing but conjecture in ‘Part 1’ and ‘Part 2’… and nothing I saw to even justify the use of the the word ‘Undeniable’ in the title of the BLOG posts themselves.
Interesting stuff… fer sure.
But actual PROOF of anything?… Not yet.
WTKTT said: “Example: Glendale Brush Truck E-156 ( Two door modified pickup with a tank and some hoses ). It is SEEN parked at the Shrine Youth Camp alongside Tyson Esquibel’s White-and-Yellow Glendale FD command vehicle… and it is SEEN coming OUT of the Youth Camp area in Aaron Hulburd’s video M2U00264… but there has NEVER been a ‘Resource Order’ associated with this Glendale Engine 156.
Just like there was never a ‘Resource Order’ for Prescott National Forest ( USFS ) employee Jason Clawson… it would seem like someone wanted to ALSO ‘hide’ the fact that Glendale Engine 156 was ever even ‘there’ in Yarnell, on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
But regardless… just the fact that a ‘Resource Order’ is ‘missing’ still doesn’t mean this mysterious ‘Engine 156’ had anything to do with any ‘burnouts’ that day.”
I understand why you say this. Consider E-21 and E-36 in resource orders, then compare to dispatch log entry on 6/30 at 0646. And then the make and model comparison to rigs coming out of Shrine, etc. Clauson is a different story.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/01/22/wildfire-burns-300-acres-near-prescott-arizona/#comment-112344
Has it been a year already, Prescott?
What happened this time…it is beginning to be a joke…just label it prescribed burn(s) versus what is happening…Really…My comment is under moderation. Bobby calls them bad asses …I am thinking fat asses if it takes FIFTY firefighters (FF) to be there…that is six acres per FF.
Sonny- chime in here. Your dad and you suppressed fires for Mining and Survival- what is your take on it?
———————————————————————–
One thought on “Wildfire burns 300 acres near Prescott, Arizona”
BOBBY GEORGE MORENO says:
January 22, 2019 at 10:38 am
Well, is it out yet ?
50 firefighters for a 300 acre fire …
They must be a bunch of bad asses !
CORRECTION:
https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/01/22/wildfire-burns-300-acres-near-prescott-arizona/#comment-112344
Has it been a year already, Prescott?
What happened this time…it is beginning to be a joke…just label it prescribed burn(s) versus what is happening…Really…My comment is under moderation. Bobby calls them bad asses …I am thinking fat asses if it takes FIFTY firefighters (FF) to be there…that is six acres per FF.
Sonny- chime in here. Your dad and you suppressed fires for Mining and Survival- what is your take on it?
———————————————————————–
One thought on “Wildfire burns 300 acres near Prescott, Arizona”
BOBBY GEORGE MORENO says:
January 22, 2019 at 10:38 am
Well, is it out yet ?
50 firefighters for a 300 acre fire …
They must be a bunch of bad asses !
Gizmo is an avatar here on Investigative Media (IM) going back to Spring 2016 – Diane Lomas – just so you know the avatar is not a fresh face to IM.
Prior topics that were discussed were professionalism and being absolute and Cordes –
when I saw gizmo I tried to immediately reply but it seems some smoke and mirrors effects ( red flags) happened and so I strongly feel if gizmo is ready to write on IM again then I am ready to reply even it takes a hundred attempts.
who in fact I normally would welcome back yet I still to this date have the thought curiosity killed the cat and gizmo is one factor as to why I have yo-yo’ed through this aftermath of the YH Fire because others cannot make you do anything but their behaviors or actions can make you feel a certain way – gizmo is one
Back in 2016 I was with Sonny on the trails and that December 2015 I was requested as POA to take him off life support and I did slowly take him off the morphine in a way I directed it so he can live and when that Irish man came about he was pissed I had done that in the manner I did so he could live and for months we had Spiritual warfare so I did not give you the attention you so deserve , gizmo but I am now.
Well I was not going to stop here today until good ol’ gizmo showed up
gizmo here?
holy toledo.
Greetings- welcome back – been awhile.-
As you have seen I am a very straight forward person so I can ask and I will-
#1) I have some information you may want to see in person – you willing to meet me in Congress or San Carlos in person? my contact is here:
http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com
#2) I want to pick your brain on your cultural verbiage that so resembled RTS and Musser and Cordes- your words on IM made me believe you are a Wildland Firefighter only in the state of Arizona who knows since the 1980’s RTS has always voiced up when something was not right in the fire industry…that was very apparent to me when I got my public records and FOIAs that people wanted to hush RTS from the start.
You see, the only culture some people have is in the bacteria of their own shit. Sonny as well as me do not flow to cultured verbiages yet we both can call a bullshit a bullshit, indeed. Your showing up was what I waited for all these years – let us meet in person because I have something I strongly feel will change your world.
#2) Back then I felt you were possibly in the know because you really were involved on the voices and inquiring WTKTT on the absolutes and
Cordes and such. I want to know have you gained much intel since then outside IM that you are willing to share? In other words are you still in verbiage mode that requires clearance before sharing publicly what you can or cannot bleed out to the world? What is your take since you discounted or made suggestive statements that maybe the SAIT-SAIR did not get a certain area right to real time so just fact checking on your take and input on the official perimeters?
#3) Were Y O U -the person typing under the name gizmo for the last three years on IM- were you present on resource order or not — how about — just present at the Yarnell Hill Fire and if so have we ever discussed your real time name on here before ever in any way?
#4) Have you gizmo ever been in person in same room with RTS? You share some similar verbiage over time to RTS. I think the world should really reflect on the verbiage…the training and have situational awareness by spending some quality time with Musser versus having it all bleed out in a court room with lawyers creating biases. I strongly believe Musser has a story and it is not if he heard weather reports or not- do you have the same belief? I know a person who if under oath will reveal some areas I know Musser would not want out.
#5) You wanted to bash me you stated in Spring 2016-
hope it changed since then – if not – I am all ears.
#6) Have we met in person already?
I wish each and everyone the best in their adventures for facts and truths as folks just glaze on by here making pop-ins.
Last night I learned a heavy lesson in life that I have been doing core navy seal training…all lined up for the academy and been getting credentialed up and smack I woke up. I see why I am so resistant because I am not this cultured verbiage – I am me – may be a bit wee foolish at times but I am not patterned or programmable and I have stayed the course over time with the Armor of God…and I have seen the devil’s scheme and I wonder have you as well gizmo? Have you seen the struggle? If so, rest assure I paused my life as it was …away from family and friends to firmly stand my ground with the belt of truth buckled around my waist as sayeth the Word…and the breastplate of righteousness and my feet planted in peace and I will share it on my blog as I said many times since they will not be the voice and every word on IM here and on my blog has coded language with much answers and I have some tell me they got what they needed in my puzzled approach yet keep in my mind it was legal advice that told me in this day and age even if you have it – do not show assertiveness or aggression and always in question form and do not show what you have fully…I am ready to take on a case may it be a mental case or physical or legal…are you ready to share a full name and what you know or keep glazing the pages as a PIO…
I am accountable online and offline. I tie my verbiage to my name-
There’s simply no accountability when you post anonymously.
Actually even Gary is exempt from accountability with his full name and location given because he has spoken from a raw state and so really…, I think we should be accountable for our opinions, accusations, and ideas tied to real names.
What you did in 2016 to WTKTT – you challenged and stated your perceptions as if you were there on the YH Fire and so from your anonymity state can you purely state and answer the questions.
As others believe, I too and that is my policy is that whatever I say online I would say to anyone, to their face. If everyone had that attitude, I think online discussions would massively improve. So no, I don’t hide behind a pseudonym.
Anonymity has a purpose in certain forums and settings, and that’s fine, but on blog commenting or sharing one’s own ideas, they should be owned. People are more civil if before they click the “submit” button they ask themselves, ‘would I be able to say this to the person’s face? And am I willing to apologize if I turn out to be wrong?’ Yes? Ok, click submit.
If you are writing good stuff than why not place your name to it.
I know WTKTT always seems to give some good data yet I do not want this one ever lost in the weeds especially Elizabeth’s comments after yours WTKTT-
https://www.investigativemedia.com/chapter-iv-comments/#comment-10673
WTKTT,
Okay there Captain Obvious.
Let’s say we take the hypothetical leap of “we have enough evidence.”
Where do we go from there? Who do we take on our tactical combat patrol and whom do we buttonhole, and whose door do we knock on?
Former USFS Fire Director Tom Harbor? Former AZ State Forester Jeff Whitney? Governor Ducey?
Do you have the necessary legal retainer fees at your beck and call to lend support?
What happens if we never find enough evidence to suit you?
How do you suppose the SAIT came up with the data to delineate the SAIR fire perimeters specifically from 3 PM to 5 PM?
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOLix3zrnbg ) SaneelGB Published on Feb 12, 2017
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpkJZuxSayo ) 1915oz Published on Jun 29, 2013
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 16, 2019 at 10:36 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Okay there Captain Obvious.
>>
>> Let’s say we take the hypothetical leap of “we have enough evidence.”
To what end?
Just for the sake of saying something has already been proven to be TRUE… when it has NOT?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Where do we go from there?
Nowhere, really… except ( maybe? )… back to the drawing board?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Do you have the necessary legal retainer fees at your beck
>> and call to lend support?
Nope. Way above my paygrade.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> What happens if we never find enough evidence to suit you?
Well… I guess I’d just remain someone who will still wonder if things
you are claiming to be TRUE… really are.
I don’t have an unreasonable threshhold… but I DO have one.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> How do you suppose the SAIT came up with the data to delineate
>> the SAIR fire perimeters specifically from 3 PM to 5 PM?
I don’t know ( specifically ). Do you?
Thank you for reading my blog ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) and catching the important verbiage I have shared there especially on Frisby’s own email thread, The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive.
I am doing my best to get additional education so when I am doing that blog I know the verbiage I am dishing out. and in the end I am going to show much more
just hard to balance schooling and training and conferences and blog all at same time…it is not easy at almost 50 (rounded up) and my track record shows housewife hiker so using areas I have not in a long time.
…
plus taking on projects as I have outside that in the fire industry and I also placed myself “on call” for Forestry…not stretched thin but definitely not in the spot to daily write a post.
It is one of the most difficult, right things to do to begin to present the materials.
Reflection…
I reflect to the day I began my blog last Summer as the eyewitness to the YH Fire who lives in the very town and area I am discussing and not on a pc analyzing from afar…
Very huge difference…
At this point, I was faced with a critical decision.
I could agree to the SAIT to what I saw that weekend and keep all I gathered and go on in life.
or begin to share what I have gathered knowing full well there are some very good people doing situational ethics and it is not a free blog….
I had a lady from NM read my blog and send me funds and I am unable to legally accept her funds and will not because I am presenting non-commercial purpose records to the world not commercial purpose records so I can share them but not make funds. It was not a little amount she sent and I had to refuse it….her notes and beautiful cards warm my heart yet her funds I may not use. I appreciate her attempt.
her first message Thank you
Joy I feel like I know you even though we’ve never met. Your dedication to the GMHS story is amazing and I have loved reading your observations on Investigative Media’s site. Best wishes to you and Sonny from a virtual friend in Albuquerque. 7/7/2018, 5:27 AM
I could have spent the funds claiming she first knew me from here (IM) but until she had affirmed such I was never going to risk it.
The blog has been so healing to other firefighters who 18 years later remember their traumas as if it is this day it happened when they had their near misses.
I am so disappointed by the racism layers I have seen others face.
I mean you would think the segregated bathrooms ended decades ago.
REMEMBER
I live here.
My unwillingness to budge on as what locals would verbiage just leave it alone…you cannot bring the men back…let it rest….
but my life has always been for children and elders and they deserve to be given facts.
Lessons learned…Lives Matter…Safety Matters!
I have seen others unpleasantness and intensities to an extreme degree and here I still am calm ( number 4 in the current fire orders – right Bob Powers ).
I have not given up.
I remain firm on my position on this matter and WTKTT has great points-
there is not enough public evidence strong enough
but I have the right folks who do have the information in case mine ever vanishes or even me
and in God’s time He is sharing it.
I mean I was to be at home on Christmas for awhile and that day God had me focused to immediate YH Fire need so yes I was with my husband/family but after the Holiday dinner I was off to do more on this area.
At what point is “Enough is Enough?”, RTS…I think WTKTT has valid points and my perception is when they stop redacting and omitting and protecting and start speaking TRUTH then we will get somewhere…
I think we can all handle the truth even the loved ones and the homeowners to some degree
yet I will guarantee two grand never came my way like two speakers got on speaking about YH Fire five years later that their speaking was reduced in speaking time due to Mayhew and I speak openly and no dime exchanged
but anyone even me the eyewitness should always be kept in check and challenged…
I take no offense in it.
and if MacLean’s book comes out and I have the documents to show differently I will SPEAK UP…He has no clue HOW MUCH data I was given since the fire and I will assure you silly rubbish stuff like saying they are hiking pals but not sexual will not be something to fun with as he has done in his career to 2 eyewitness to a horrific fire were 19 men died and so many after the fire – he went off into areas so distasteful to who Sonny is and me. I am a side kick kinda gal but not deserving to see or hear those layers after the horrific paths I have seen…
speaking of Sonny, – Gary you are missing out on some cute pups of his…cute. Playful and so happy.
I will not allow anyone to just to make their own narratives like they done on prior fires…
If you are a firefighter or were and you want a post on my blog with full name or anonymous or to meet in person to share – reach me…your story…your life matters! Near misses and close calls welcomed too not just fatalities. I will place it out your way and tastefully.
one of the fires that hits close to me was in 2000 on the Judith Complex and its real time data vs the media malarkey.
there is a time to say enough is enough and I as much as people think I am here to ramble…I do think we all are here based on WTKTT avatar
we want the truth
In close, I stand firm that both men RTS and WTKTT are right.
No drawing board verbiage needed…but down below I will expand on this…
but for me, I could have easily gone along with this SAIT and kept on doing my own life stuff but I knew it was not right and it violated my leadership values, as well as my personal ideals and my integrity, and Faith.
I have the courage to do the harder right 😉
I hope others choose the “hard right” over the “easy wrong”
If we stop the bbqs Wtktt, and bring more data out – do you have a plan when the evidence is finally out? What is your plan for what to do with it…
Who’s drawing board are we to use? That I need to know,,,,where are you going to present it when you have it on your drawing board. what’s the next step?
Who has a vested interest in this YH Fire?
I am the eye-witness and so mine is a moral and close to heart one to do right
RTS- I would bet he has one because of his academic and extended Wildland firefighting work experience Safety Does Matter vested interest
the ones who faced losses have a vested one…
what is yours?
at this point in time we all should make it known to the world our vested interests-
let’s see…
As for the perimeter reply you gave did not seem like your kind of an answer.
I want to thank for staying with me on IM.
Noone gets near the amount of hours you have placed into this site..
I can do the overlay stuff and have shown IM folks off here I can but it takes time to do it
I appreciate you and I do not comprehend the no interest in the back burns and no orange gorillas.
MY VESTED INTEREST:
I was personally caught in the middle of a “traumatic catastrophic poor choices made by other” experience and saw things never reported and I never thought the very state I love – ARIZONA – would be so disjointed and disoriented of negligence and failed me.and redact as much as they have and used the Touhy route alot when so many lives were lost on 1 day and that annual after from the effect of the YH Fire.
I was not expecting to see what we saw June 30, 2013 –
for that I persevere.
I do not need an audience to applaud or stand by me but I do need others who know more to share more…
I just wonder over time why
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 11:57 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I will not allow anyone to just to make their own
>> narratives like they done on prior fires…
Exactly… and that includes paying diligent attention to the difference between things that *might* have happened… but still need to be PROVED, and things that are *known* to have happened, because they HAVE been PROVED.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> If we stop the bbqs Wtktt, and bring more data out – do
>> you have a plan when the evidence is finally out? What
>> is your plan for what to do with it…
‘bbqs’??
Not sure what that means, but FWIW I assure you I am never trying to ‘barbecue’ anyone.
Sometimes not “picking up what someone is putting down” ( and explaining WHY )… yes.
Sometimes not accepting what others think is “sufficient evidence” ( and explaining WHY )…yes.
But there is never any lighter-fluid involved.
It’s all just in the interests of ‘fact checking’.
As for “What is MY plan for what to do with more data”…
Are you asking me if I’m some kind of prosecutor, who would have the ability to go ‘after’ people once it is proved they are ( and have always been ) lying?
I can assure you… I am no such thing.
From my perspective… first and foremost… the ( public ) KNOWLEDGE should be the ‘plan’ itself.
The public still has the ‘right to know’ everything about this National Tragedy.
Anything that might happen after that would always remain to be seen.
Depends on what comes to light.
SIDENOTE: You do know that even civil suits that have been ‘settled’ can be ‘refiled’ and ‘reopened’ if sufficient ‘new evidence’ comes to light, right?
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> at this point in time we all should make it known
>> to the world our vested interests-
This is public forum.
No one needs to have any kind of ‘vested interest’ to participate.
All you have to do is follow the normal rules of online forum participation and not become some kind ‘troll’.
By the way… ( trivia time )…
The phrase “vested interest” is so commonly used that, even though it has 2 words, it is considered to be a ‘noun’ by Merriam Webster and it has its own definition…
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vested%20interest
—————————————————————————–
“vested interest” noun
Definition of vested interest
1 : an interest (such as a title to an estate) carrying a legal right of present or future enjoyment specifically : a right vested in an employee under a pension plan
2 : a special concern or stake in maintaining or influencing a condition, arrangement, or action especially for selfish ends
3 : one having a vested interest in something specifically : a group enjoying benefits from an existing economic or political privilege
——————————————————————————
Based on the ‘dictionary definition’… I guess I would have to say that I really don’t have any ( official ) ‘vested interest’ at all.
But I’m still just as interested in finding out the TRUTH as I have always been.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> I appreciate you and I do not comprehend the no interest
>> in the back burns and no orange gorillas.
You haven’t been paying attention.
I am ( and have always been ) 100 percent ‘interested in the back burns’ and whether or not they can be fully ‘proved’ and/or fully ‘disproved’. It may very well turn out that neither is possible… but I am still VERY interested to know which it is.
And with regards to ‘orange gorillas’…
You keep using that phrase. What does it actually MEAN?
Joy said, “speaking of Sonny, – Gary you are missing out on some cute pups of his…cute. Playful and so happy.”
I don’t dare look because I am a dog person, (which I never was until Una decided she was my dig after she was left at our house so we could find her a new home) and I can’t fall in love with, or get one of them because they are known as an aggressive breed.
I have gone from being a home owner for more than 20 years to a home or apartment renter. And German Shepherds are just one of the breeds who aren’t compatible with my lifestyle.
And just remember what I have always written on this thread from day one, “I’m not here to make friends (or even keep the ones I had) or add to my Christmas Card list.” I’m here to learn everything I can about the deaths if our crew on the YHFD.
You and I have a Division Of Labor, as I have with so many other people. It’s my job to shake the trees to see if any fruits 🍎 or nuts 🥜 will fall out. It’s your job to withhold that information, intelligence and evidence from me just as long as you see fit. Which is certainly your constitutional right to do, just as it is my right to keep asking…because that is what I do.
Teasing you…is optional.
Oh…and one more thing. I owned five different homes during that 20 year period…which really sucked in the end. So…don’t do that unless you really have to. And even then…don’t do it.
Whoops…I forgot one. Make that six (6) homes over a slightly more than 20 year period.
RTS…I have been doing research for my highly anticipated and much acclaimed tome, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” or “Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighters”, or, “ Betrayed By Our Fire Gods…Again” or, On the Fire Line…Memoirs Of a Busted Down Former Hotshot” and I noted there is only one (1) hotshot crew listed on the hotshot roster for the NPS, the “Arrowhead Hotshots?” I thought they had three or more crews these days?
I too, have read through Joy’s blog looking for the supposedly new ‘evidence’, and like WTKTT, I haven’t been able to find it yet. In addition, RTS says he spoke with a hybrid that actually participated in the burn. RTS, there certainly must be a lot more you can reveal about that burn while still keeping the confidence of that firefighter protected, eh?
For quite some time, even though Sonny and Joy likely know that area better than anyone who’s ever been on this site, I have been wondering if POSSIBLY they could have misinterpreted something about the video (time,place, etc) as to it being relevant to the issue at hand. Over time, with their adamant protestations, along with the fact that they subsequently visited the site to confirm their observations, combined with Norb’s independent verification of that video, I have come to believe that some firing happened in that location.
Aside from the so-far non-specific information that RTS says he has, a question I’ve been pondering is could the video have been taken the next day, while crews were cleaning-up fuels around structures and addressing un-burned islands?
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive :: reply–Yes we do know the area but it has taken time and some fire education and understanding that I have derived from this site and wild land fire people that have taken the tour and death route of the 19–that has been over months and finally even years. In some ways I wanted to divorce myself from the incident at Yarnell. However, because we were there and witnessed the actual fire, condition of the men and their most of their actions up until we departed the area about noon, I can see how important, not only the photos of over 1500 that Joy took but our experience transversing the terrain and watching a wild fire that was unstoppable by any means.
No, we did not err in our seeing the drip torches being used in the Shine area. First off, we both recognized the rock foundation but even so, we had to actually go there to make sure it was that rock wall foundation thing. Even after doing that, we decided there might be a slim possibility of a twin foundation—the view had only included that rock thing and the dirt road forward of that location. So, we took the extra trouble of going to areas we knew that drip torches had been used in the Peeples Valley along dirt roads in that area. None of those roads there have foundations next the road and the area as well was different to that Shrine dirt road area. So we then were absolutely certain that there were no look alike situations that were even remotely close to that video and it was just as we identified it to be. Now we did not understand why they would be burning in that area at that time–why we were so amazed to witness the video.
However as time has gone by and the many things I have learned from this site, you professionals, and some study, I would not at all been amazed at seeing the burn out in that area. I would likely have passed by the video in another frame of mind–yes that would be a proper and common thing to do just as we saw Ben Palm crew doing the burn out on the east side of Yarnell–no big thing. You would expect that type operation for the area. I believe Gary–that is what wild land fire fighters do–especially where proper–they burn and I certainly could understand a burn back in that area and would wonder why it were not done if I had any common sense about me.
There were two reasons–one the fire was going away toward Peeples Valley all morning and was a diredtion that would not only be back stopped by the creek itself, it had a road and a granite boulder break that would protect the few houses on the north end of Yarnell including the U-stow it units. Plenty of time there to add retardant to the boulders to make it even more secure for the north end–which did happen later in the game.
Second, because they were aware that the wind would change, they had to know it would head directly back toward the Weavers and the only real threat would be to the Helms (bomb and fire proof place and even considered a safe zone).
So, there would be no sensible reason not to make that burn–and even the bulldozer had been unloaded to make a line along the north edge of Glen Isla although I had understood that action was denied. Somebody’s bulldozer knocked out a wall at the Walkers–left tracks and it did not matter but showed the intentions and perhaps that line was being done as planned before the knock out of that wall on the north side of Glen Isla.
Now. one thing I noticed about Marsh–Joy will verify I am sure– Marsh was not stressed when we talked with him. Well Joy did the talking for the most part, I was just observing. If he had any stress, he certainly could hide it. He went up those mountains and back and forth across the fire edge in the boulders like a deer. But I could not say the same for the GMHS crew–The ones I noticed were trudging along–and my thoughts were at the time–not a crew I would want to be working with according to their looks. As a miner, if working with a tired helper or another miner and he was in that condition, you knew you would be doing the bulk of the work.
Dr. Putnam walked the line they made and we saw what they had actually accomplished. It was in a rough and bouldery area just below where Marsh had earlier been crossing the burning fire edge. The fire had a scattered edge in that area due to the boulders and sparse vegetation. However, in the canyon to the north of where they cut line and above the old grader, especially on the south side of that canyon the manzanita growth was near equal to where the men were killed. The north side of that canyon (we had hiked that canyon to visit the old gold mines up there several hikes) was grassy and manzanita–either place was deadly if your were to get caught in it. So really the only place they were safe was where they were at and to go back up into the boulders where the ground had already burned out. The two track to the south was a deadly area when the wind reversed and they had to know that was to happen–surely looking at the thunder storms to the NE would have been enough to alarm the to depart the area asap or get to a safe area.
Dr. Ted talks about the stress factor and certainly that is a top priority. I am certain he would add that certain individuals would not make good wild fire bosses and that screening should be done along with psychological testing before people are able to move up in jobs that require strict attention to the safety of their crews. For instance, I would not want a doper or a man with a history of doping directing my son and a crew in the type situations that we saw at Yarnell. You better have a solid individual that you know is not going to take undue risk with the lives of his men. I don’t care about the preacher types–some of them blame every thing to God and might say we can do stupid shit because God is looking over our shoulder. So no matter to bend rules and take chances. Like Honda and RTS indicated, it was known that Marsh was a high risk taker–sad that he did that with those young men under him. I am all for an asshole to kill himself due to his high risk taking, but when it comes to involving the innocent that are bullied or intentionally led into a death trap–then is when these issues must be addressed–Safety above Reputation or pleasing some one superior to the crew boss, then the boot before he pulls another Marsh.
It would seem to be a crew boss or boss on any situation involving eminent danger and death situations that it would be mandatory to have many years of experience in the particular work. So then you would not only be a man that watches out and keeps the safety rules to protect his crew, but he also knows what will kill you. From talking with Dr Ted, I know he saved two men precisely because at that time he had years of experience when these two men were going to descend to a spot that would have killed them. They were adamant to go but he cursed them and took control. His actions saved the men because the area they were going to burned over and they would have been the greeters to the GMHS in Wild Fire Heaven. Whether they thanked him or not I do not know–but could you imagine those fellows leading a crew–the crew would have been dead right there. So I wonder if that was not a parallel to the GMHS deaths–someone leading that was gung-ho enough to do what those two were about to do but “God” stopped them –well Dr. Ted maybe was the guy that did.
Maybe I can talk a little about stress. My first job as a contract miner was at Fierro, NM –to drive a raise up 150 ft. They needed an ore chute–see you drop ore into that chute from the higher level down to a trap door (they used hydraulic as most minds do) that is opened and closed as mine cars pass underneath. Their destination then is to the main shaft where the ore is dumped from the mine cars into a chute that leads into the ore bucket that is taken to the surface. (While I was there some Mexican guy got a rock stuck in the hydraulic loading chute and in his attempt to bar it out, he had his head as a replacement for the rock. Of course his head became a pancake. But none the less, I mentioned before, I had a raise blasted out and timbered up about 30 ft. when my stulls gave was and down I went with machine, timbers and all. I was young and had never before driven a raise so eventhough I was a good miner, this was different. One thing the fall did not bother me but that sudden stop in the muck pile did. The machine, timbers drill steel, and all landed beside me–had that machine landed on my head it would have looked somewhat like the guy that got his head in the chute. So I at that time felt some stress.and still remember it. My boots were stuck in the muck pile==fortunately I landed feet firs and fortunately the pile was soaked from my drilling above it. Needless to say, I got the next set of stulls in properly.
But when I got shot in the back with the 12 guage lately, I did not feel the stress except at first I had though some one had shot me from a snipe. I was trying to think how I could get hold of my rifle to fire back but realized after a bit of laying out on the ground that it was my own gun that hit me. Well I was not feeling stress but was calling 911–I had accepted that this was the end of old Sonny but I had Charlie, Scooter, and Cowboy who were going to be left in the desert some 25 miles out without water, food and likely would not be found for weeks. So certainly I could have not bothered to phone 911 but I did so maybe those dogs that accidentally shot me actually saved me as well. ;And I had underestimated the abilities of modern medicine as well–they did the Jesus thing and supplied me with enough blood and another hole in my chest to keep that shot out lung from collapsing that I was able to pull through. So I do owe much gratitude to first responders, a helicopter pilot that got me to a trauma center and a bunch of doctors and nurses that brought me back. I did not like dying this time–the tunnel and the neon lights before the lights went out were damned weird. Where Jesus, God and Buddah and the Irish Gods and Goddesses were I have no idea–but would have been nice to have had them hanging around on that rabbit hunt. Did not see any of them in the tunnel either–I suspect that will be the next trip down the tunnel–down is up from anywhere on earth–at least after you pass thought the earth. Maybe all miners go down since that is what they do.
Do you think there is any existence for our souls after death? You do have a PhD in Religion. Do you think there was something at the end of the tunnel light, or were those just the last neuronal firing of your dying brain 🧠 ? Just curious what you think since you has a near death experience?
TTWARE,
I posted: One of the FFs involved in this operation told me that they were directed by their agency supervisors to not discuss the YH Fire with anyone except the SA Investigation Team.”
You posted: ” In addition, RTS says he spoke with a hybrid that actually participated in the burn. RTS, there certainly must be a lot more you can reveal about that burn while still keeping the confidence of that firefighter protected, eh? ”
Nothing more to reveal at this point because, as I posted, they were directed to not discuss the YH Fire with anyone except the SA Investigation Team. I was not a member of the SAIT
RTS said previously:
“There is and has been strong suggestive evidence of what Hybrid FFs were involved that firing operation that day. More to follow …”
“One of the FFs involved in this operation told me that they were directed by their agency supervisors to not discuss the YH Fire with anyone except the SA Investigation Team.”
Well, apparently he, or she, DID discuss the YH Fire with those other than the SAIT, because you know that he, or she, was involved with the firing operation.
********* “One of the FFs involved in this operation……” ********
Answer to Gary–the easy living vs the pioneering–Not tough at all to live off grid– But Joy is a person as tough as one can be living as would the early pioneers and we did for some time–
I moved up in life to a trailer and a F-150 4×4. Best truck I ever owned but damn it likes fuel with that big engine. I like the v 6 better that is in my chevy but it would be hell to put it in the ford. Anyway the 4×4 passes anything but the gas station and I like the coffee at Love’s.
Someone is going to say Sonny is now trailer trash. But I know trailer trash and it ain’t me babe. I was seeing people wear those elongated boots with long points–I call them clown boots–Well you see people wearing the elongated slippers as well so be have both clown shoes and clown boots now. Those long clown boots with points ought to better at killing cock roaches in the corners that the older shorter models. I wouldn’t recommend them in a stirrup, especially on dismount you likely would get hung in a stirrup and horse dragging can be devastating.
One thing is a good boot can hang you to a bar stool real nice –I have tried that myself and keeps you from falling backwards.
Something that might be useful here would be puke troughs at bars. They have those in Mexico–I think if I had another Cantina to run, I would install them. That rot gut can get to your stomach.
My biscuits are ok cooked in a cast iron covered skilled and I have a sweetpotatoe in tin foil inside the wood stove. I will add some butter and coconut oil and have some good old pioneer cuisine These biscuits aren’t half-bad..
But I do believe my Dad was the real pioneer and prospector. Mom stayed with him 50 years until she passed–but had instructions to not be buried anywhere near him. Both sisters hated that life and my brother was not far behind in his thinking as well. Not for the weak hearted for sure or any good for a lady’s life.
When I was a kid attending school I would smell like smoke since Mom was cooking breakfast on a camp fire. Actually that was a good deodorant since baths were scarce due to having to haul water. He would have been arrested for child neglect these days but I loved that life–It was free and I had all the desert and all the forest depending on where he was prospecting –Nothing like the freedom of the wild and someone to share it with.
You learn to do things that way and I really think Thoreau was a man after my own heart even though he was English and down graded the Irish. He just did not know how much more intelligent we are not falling down before a queen. But of course each person should be seen by his merits, not his Englishness or Irishness. But I can be proud of my gene pool–they were survivors and still are despite the many hardships and invasions of the homeland.
Guiness is one of the world’s best beers, if not the best. I keep a few in my ice box in case of emergency or should a thirsty fire figher or other show. I had three the day I was shot so in case I had gotten stuck, I had those for the long hike back to my abode. There is plenty of food value in those things and they can encourage you on a hike. And no, I was not drinking those and driving , in fact I had not drank anything for over a week–strictly energy packs for hiking. Some people take bottled water which is fine but no vitamins there.
Well…see…that’s the thing. I really like hot showers and microwave cooking over campfires. So…like I said, I just ain’t tough enough. But…I do admitpre how tough both you and Joy are. And I am now shooting to be homeless trash moving from place to place with my Jeeps in tow. So…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-division-releases-new-yarnell-hill-fire-video/
Sonny, refresher for you
You are welcome.
Sonny and I have been talking about this since 2013 but I refreshed a comment when this article came out.
to this date not all videos have received a proper time but if you know of any Sonny post it under here.
Sonny, you are correct identifying the scenario as you did down below.
It is a pivotal point and best for us to leave it alone.
It would only suffice in seeing MORE DATA disappear as we have all seen happen.
Also remember Sonny to watch the videos on the sky darkening up from video to video
I got permission from MR to make a new post/video on my page trying to make sense of recent comments here.
I am in a project with them and I am on a deadline and now on a fast where the last thing I want to do is do this…rather sleep it out a few days but I will for you Sonny…Sonny, when exactly were you minute by minute during the periods of time when we could not see the fire or not seen fire or smoke?
Disregard this post if I accidentally reposted. Having some trouble posting with my Verizon hot spot phone.
Some trouble posting so will try again–my down loads and uploads –Verizon gives you a hot spot off your phone unlimited if you give them a hundred a month–but they are damn stingy wJoy, Thanks for this article from the Tucson Sentinel–interesting it mentions the 19 deaths of GMHS–http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/opinion/report/011119_mines_wall_op/forget-faux-crisis-immigration-westward-migration-caused-dangerous-problems-were-ignoring/
It tells us about 5 murder convictions since 2003 and 3 old mine shaft deaths in Arizona since 2007 then goes on to say there were 19 Arizona deaths due to wild fire. It is an article more or less pointing out the Wall Of China idea that Trump is trumpeting so much about –something on the order of ridiculous. Well, he will put it up perhaps, but then what politician down the line will tear holes in it even if it goes up. (Are there Ladders over the Wall of China?) Well the Mexicans are ingenious at getting over and I imagine they will figure out a pogo stick to get them here and the farmers will cheer them on because without them Cherries will go from $5 a pound to $20 and lettuce from a $1 a head to $10 a head. Which might be a good idea since obesity has been pretty rampant–at least in the main part of Phoenix. But you will see when the population starts getting skinny then those holes will start increasing through the fence. There are not many Americans willing to do farm work at the menial wage those illegals do. And yes, the dope runner types in Mexico have created mayhem over there but you will not find those types working at menial jobs and when a few of those types do show up over here, they are pretty much in trouble right away and deported. Five murder convictions for as many illegals as we have here is minuscule compared to the general population number of murders. Am I opposed to illegal aliens coming here–Yes and no is that answer–I like to be able to buy cheap cherries and $1 lettuce.
Joy once told me this country will eventually be overrun by the Mexican population–well latinos. As far as New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, California, Colorado and even Florida are concerned, that is already happening. Luna County here has 65% Latino population and I don’t know if you would count my Son’s and Daughter as Latino since they are half Mexican. And believe me, the Catholic religion does not like birth control so you can see families of 9 and more are not uncommon. Not only that more than half the families in these states that are legal have relatives in Mexico. Trump needs some education–he won’t get many votes in this Dona Anna County, nor in the El Paso area for sure. And yes, cherries come from Washington–plenty of illegals there as well. But rest assured most of them want to go back home to Mexico, etc. as soon as they can get enough dough together after sending those billions Trump says we are loosing that those menial wage earners send to their needy families in Mexico.
Well I was not really going to address the Mexican Wall Issue–but being that we lost three Arizonans to falling off in abandoned mine shafts–Joy even fell in one for 15 ft when it had snowed and she might have slipped off in one near Congress–There are many there since Weaver areal produced over $250,000 in gold in less that two weeks from a placer find on part of that range–People are still digging the placer out there in large numbers–You can join a club for maybe $100 and get rights to be one of the diggers–some good nuggets are found.
So yes, the metals have caused many an old prospector to dig a hole and if it did not pay, then he would abandon it. You might be the fourth to die in one of those holes, like Joy almost did by walking off into one. I think of Gary there since someone when I was stationed over there in the Desert with Joy drove a quad off into one– I think it was a kid was one of the three deaths. And if you look at the Quad deaths I can bet there are plenty more than just the 3 since 2007 that were due to abandoned mine shafts and tunnels.
So we ought to look at the results of all these prospects–Over 90% of all mines–actually I would surmise about 98% before modern mining were found by the fool prospector looking to get rich off his prospecting. Only a small percent of the mines were ever discovered by the professionals such as geologists, mining engineers and the companies that use them. Certainly after they looked at a find, they could drill and block off ore deposits and then do the really big holes–For example Bisbee, Morenci and just about every open pit you can name was originally started by some old prospector chasing an ore outcrop by digging his dangerous hole in the ground. Mark Twain described the mine prospect as a hole in the ground and a liar on top. But that liar had caused the main way we have lived as what is called a civilized nation–sometimes a questionable statement seeing we had killed so many during the Civil War and now we want to wall ourselves in so there will be no escape, at least to the South on the next one.
So that old miner is responsible for the finding of the Gold, Silver, Iron, Uranium, Tin, Copper, Lead, Antimony, Diatamatocious Earth, Clay. and just about every metal and non metal we live with today from bricks to automobiles to atomic power and atomic bombs. In fact, because of such individuals we can account for thousands of deaths due to auto accidents, hundreds of thousands of deaths due to atomic bombs that we laid out in Heroshima and Nagasaki, hundreds of thousands of deaths due to lead and copper poisoning from the bullet wounds of the Civil War, Indian Wars, Spanish War, First World War, Second World War, Iraq, Afghanistan, and so on. That tungesten light bulb and the tungsten bullet that pierces tanks are all attributable to some old miner producing that element. I worked for Union Carbide in the tungsten mines near Rachael Nevada–they produced a bunch of that element–well paid us miners to produce it and I stayed at the shack of the Old Prospector that found and sold that mine to Union Carbide for $40,000. You see he had first dug several rat holes–and Joy is my witness on this one, we saw the many tunnels dug back into the mountain–a terrible thing to look at perhaps to some, but none the less an absolute necessity if you want armour piercing bullets, strong railroad track, high strength steels for mining the stuff and those old tungsten filament light bulbs that are now outdated. So you see I am in a round about way one of the world’s worst — all those deaths some how connected to the prospecting and mining that we miners have done–so maybe we ought to be eliminated as prospectors that hunted these valuables. Hell I even mined turquoise and Agates and other gem stones–an evil some would say to adorn yourself with such niceties. If it is any meaning–pit bulls have killed more since 2007 than people falling off in abandoned shafts. Well hell, Charlie killed me and was not even a Pit Bull. And I was really dead–my son verified that when he looked at that shot gun wound yesterday==it is about healed up now since Oct 24 of last year–but I am back to life so maybe in this life I won’t be digging anymore holes except maybe my own 6 foot one.
What has this to do with wild land fire fighting — well you men are worse killers than the illegal aliens–I mean you knock off 19 at a time at Yarnell alone not to mention other times. So those bosses there make the illegal murders look like pikers. And thanks Joy–You have the minute by minute times–your photos gave that–I know we were seeing the flare ups early on after 10 am that day and by 11:30 it was already totally out of hand but headed toward Peeples Valley. I did not know but had a hunch the wind would change–whatever time I topped the Weavers, then I could feel the change already coming albeit gentle there. We had almost an ominous calm something you always feel before a storm. Currents are different at different elevations and spots as we well know–but I had alarm bells all over me at the time, one reason I was so determined we get the hell out of there. Remember that ball of ribbon was right on the two track and I thought it was a meteorite at first until it partially fell apart and the bit of pink inside was exposed. You have a photo of that but do you have a photo of that PVC pipe that was in the center of the two track a few yards down from where you were sitting? That thing origionally white had scorched to brown and wiggled into a snake form–testimony of how bad the heat was even in that somewhat less dense area of vegetation on the side of the mountain.
My opinion–I know–we are going to do our work whether it kills or not. However, be careful if you drive the outback of Arizona–there are plenty of prospect holes so the danger is high–especially if you are an ATV driver or hiker in the Arizona snow stormsith the speed allowed–not even snail pace–and a turtle will outrun a snail.
Oh I forgot to mention the killer rattlesnakes-likely worse murderers than illegals. Even with snake boots–one that struck Joy cost her $48,000 in funds–killed her bank account and might have killed her had she not been a snake boot wearer. But let her talk about that experience. I wasn’t there but it was when she was going in one of those dreaded mine tunnels.
I would have voted last election but I saw Trump as a Hitler type and Hillary as a liar–they balanced out as two people not suited for President of this great country at least in my eyes. Well I need glasses but that is being taken care of and so maybe I will begin to see the bright side on some things. (Has Trump bothered to talk to Bill Gates or any of those other financiers –some with nearly a trillion dollar worth and where 5 billion is chump change?) All things are possible–you do not really need to bleed the taxpayer and the wall is a fool’s idea in my opinion.
Trump has proven himself–shutting down the government like a baby that pouts because Mama refuses to let him eat a piece of candy when he could get the money himself if he really wanted that wall. He wants those 5 plus billions to build a wall–but we all know once a government project is started you can double or triple the actual amount that will be spent. But the truth of it– political rhetoric.
Perhaps it will give a few unemployed jobs for a while and keep out a few undesirables if that is possible. Meantime the South American hoards that are attempting to escape a horrible situation with starvation and the dangerous situations for families have been held back despite no Iron Curtain to keep them at bay. To the world we must look like greedy people who would spend billions to fence these refugees out, yet we do little if anything to alleviate their poverty situation of those people. Trump said we will make this country great again when I had never know when we had lost the title of being a Great Country. I think his definition of great is a Trump Tower in every city, including Moscow. How about we look great by helping those people with a billion or so?–they can relocate wherever–Mexico has plenty of open space–Just take a trip from El Paso to Chihuahua City and you will see–and go on to farther parts–plenty of room for more people.
What I can say is 98% or more of those people are below the poverty level but are people that only want the chance to have work to support their families. They are willing to do the menial jobs that most Americans avoid –rather take food stamps and welfare checks –than do that farm work, etc that is available. Yes, like all immigrants–the Irish, the Italian, the Mexican and so on, they eventually establish themselves so that some take to education and get better jobs, become the Senators, Presidents, Scientists, etc. of this Already Great Country.
In my estimation, Trump is a total narcissist. He is one that is not necessarily looking out for the country –especially those poor and downtrodden here and elsewhere– no compassion in that man, he is looking out for himself. It is all about aggrandizement for him. His TV program showed his cards way before coming President. He could send people away in a heart beat and still does–no consideration for that person or their future whatsoever. He may say, oh, so and so did a good job but it is easy to see he is irked to say anything good about someone he sends away. He is simply trying to stay smooth with his supporters.
But what has this to do with fire fighting in the bush? Well leaders have personalities and personalities and ways of thinking are developed over time.
Certainly genes have much to do with the way people do and think, but we can all be evaluated over the habits of what we do. On dangerous jobs such as fire fighting we can watch the boss–Is he a needless risk taker? Does he put the thought of taking care of his men above saving his own reputation. Is he a Trump type who would in his mind say If you do not do as I say and support everything I do including my visits to the whore house and lying almost daily–then out you go and preferably with a big kick in the ass.
You see I estimated him to be a total narcissist. He would be the one to decide to take you down into that canyon of death and if you did not go along, then you would know you were headed for a big boot up the ass.
Somehow I know how this thing at Yarnell was played out. Some here have mentioned the big ego thing–that that goes heavy when it comes to the narcissistic personality.
Certainly it is a good thing to watch out and love yourself, but when you have that lack of concern for others then you do not belong in any position directing men–most especially when it comes to dangerous work such as wild land fire fighting..
As for Marsh only two things were possible–
He did know the danger of putting his men down in that dense canyon of manzanita with the fire about to change direction. And if that is the case and because he knew and broke every fire fighter rule that keeps men safe and alive–I would class him as a narcissist of a high order. He only cared about his own reputation and looks before the asses he was sniffing and the public.
If he did not know the danger and results that had a very high probability of killing his men, then he was in the class of an imbecile and had no business whatsoever being a boss in a dangerous occupation with many mens lives at risk.
Thirdly, he could have been drugged. Drugs affect the mind and if you do not believe that try some of even the prescribed drugs. You never know what trip these people will take or be on–yet outward appearances can look normal. I heard say he was an AA member–true or not I do not know–but seems Donut and he were doing something to recover from drug usage. AA reforming is a good thing–I used it when I had managed a half way house in Las Cruces. But the relapses are many and many go there still using and abusing–many under court order working the system to stay out of jail.
I can tell you that if you stand on the two track and look at the situation and say you would take your men down there under the conditions and knowledge of that June 30 day of 2013, then I would say you certainly do not belong on a job as a wild land fire fighter boss. And that is not my opinion but about a hundred wild land fire fighter bosses and investigators that Joy and I hiked and became acquaintances and friends with.
I think I would have made a good wild land fire fighter boss if my calling had been that way. I say that cause I had good instincts that day–I wanted us out of the danger zone and pronto. And in mining, I never allowed my helper to get into a dangerous spot needlessly. Everything is danger underground–but you do not go under a slab in hard rock without first barring down the dangerous slabs and sounding ground. A hollow sound means something is loose and either has to be barred down, bolted or stulls placed to keep the ground from burying you before your time. Sounding could not be done in Uranium at Ambrosia Lake since sandstone is throughout. So it is all wire mesh and you do not allow your helper beyond the mesh–and if that must be done going beyond, you risk your own ass, not your young helper.
Thing about logging which is considered even more dangerous than mining–you are on your own 99% of the time. Mostly no one around and yet you could fall a tree on someone so you yell Timber as opposed to Fire in the Hole in the mines. So about the only one you can cause hurt to is yourself and that can come about by trying to loose a snag or ocassionally a dead limb will fall and take out the faller. That would be a good job for a Marsh type.
In the conclusion, the only reason I can see that Marsh was not exposed for his terrible crime was that people want to maintain the FS, State FS facade as a perfect system. And of course, any reason and Trump might give Arizona a depleted allowance–he did not like the deceased McGovern who knew his real designs.
Dangerous, non caring people do not belong in those wild land fire fighing jobs where they can mass murder a whole crew of 17. Well you might like to term it sacrifice a whole crew of 20 to the Wild Land Fire gods and goddesses.
Happy trails and wild land fire fighting. It is a job you must love because you are woefully underpaid for the danger and hard work involved in fighting these wild fires.
Sonny,
You don’t have to visualize me riding on either an ATV or UTV erratically across the Arizona Desert and ending up at the bottom of a mineshaft. “A mans got to know his limitations.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0
I finally had to accept the fact I was never going to make a responsible ATV rider and I didn’t want to end up paralyzed, so I traded both of my machines (and their trailers) for a highly modified 1998 TJ, (photo to follow, because it’s important for everyone to know what my Jeeps look like). So…
I will tell you however, what used to give me the Heebie Jeebies walking into a few of those old mines while I was with the BLM. And that is those old time miners placing wooden planks (and inches of dirt) over vertical mine shafts that are actually in the floor of horizontal shafts.
I knew it was always possible for me to fall hundreds of feet straight down those old vertical shafts (from way back when) because the wooden planks had rotted and decayed with age. And that possibility, however remote, really gave me the creeps. It used to scare me…and I was fearless!
And FYI, anybody who wants me to go into any mine shaft for any reason would have to put a gun to my head and make me believe they were going to blow my brains 🧠 out if I didn’t (other than being required to do so fir the job). That is how bad those old mines terrified me.
The Tucson Sentinel article on immigration. abandoned mines, and overgrown forests does mention the epic June 30, 2013, YH Fire, however, I do not understand the connection.
( http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/opinion/report/011119_mines_wall_op/forget-faux-crisis-immigration-westward-migration-caused-dangerous-problems-were-ignoring/ )
My favorite is this quote from the new USFS Fire Director: “The raging flames create what new U.S. Forest Service Director Vicki Chritiansen calls “hurricane fires.” Say what – hurricane fires?
I think this woman is clearly uneducated in basic wildland fire weather and fire behavior because there are NO forest fires during hurricanes, among nature’s most powerful and destructive phenomena, during soaking rains and surges.
Weeks afterwards, yes, due to the desiccation of the wildland fuels from the salt water surges but NOT during a hurricane. I have never heard that phrase before.
My favorite is this quote from the new USFS Fire Director: “The raging flames create what new U.S. Forest Service Director Vicki Chritiansen calls “hurricane fires.” Say what – hurricane fires?
I think this woman is clearly uneducated in basic wildland fire weather and fire behavior because there are NO forest fires during hurricanes, among nature’s most powerful and destructive phenomena, during soaking rains and surges.
Weeks afterwards, yes, due to the desiccation of the wildland fuels from the salt water surges but NOT during a hurricane. I have never heard that phrase before.
I think she just meant ‘size’ and ‘intensity’ and whatnot… not ‘precipitation levels’.
You know… like “Not just run-of-the-mill normal-size fire storms anymore… but really BIG ones… more like ‘hurricane’ size storms”.
( Captain obvious / over and out )
I think she meant, “Fire Storms” But she confused Storm with Hurricane. Captain Obvious Too…Over and Out.
Could have used a hurricane on the 30th of June–all that water might have done a better job than the Retardant. Yeah I think a strange analogy–but how fast did that fire really move up that funnel canyon and up the side of the Weavers? The FS had 11 mph and I wonder how they got that figure. When Brandon describes his egress it was more like the fire storm was outrunning his vehicle. I would think though Brandon had a lot less experience with wild fires than the men who spent years on the wild fire lines throughout the country. Is 11 mph a sensible estimate in 20-30 mph winds with 45mph gusts? This of course is considering the density of manzanita and other forage at Yarnell with high day heat -95 F degree and higher–and dehydrated bushes.
Many possibilities but the more I understand about it the more I see the faulty idea of making a city fire fighter into a wild land fighter who believes he can tackle a wild land fire to protect a structure in those conditions by waving his Pulaski at it.
The State owes those loved ones plenty more compensation–their livelihoods .were destroyed due to the foolish practices of allowing those men to become wild land fire fighters under their supervision (FS and whoever the band leaders were in the State Bureaucratic System). They should as a start pay those spouses the basic wage for the wild land fire fighter for the rest of their lives and especially until their children become of age. That is a pinch penny state that does not mind spending millions on wild fire retardant that was almost totally useless in the Yarnell incident, yet when it comes to compensation of those they killed by their faulty methods–they balk like the jack asses they are. Yes you can call the men heroes and blame Marsh and Steed but who but the State allowed such men to rule over those that had no blame in this. How the people of Arizona go along with the injustice done to the loved ones I can not understand. Yet the cover up and BS is easily understood from the standpoint of the motives that the FS and State officials had–Keep the government money flowing their way and keep the reputations squeaky clean in front of the Public. It doesn’t take a professor to understand the motives–but they ought to have a professor of Psychology and Psychiatry to start evaluating the hiring practices and propensity of these agencies to put people in deadly situations when it is absolutely unnecessary.
FBI uses such people (Psychiatrists and Psychologists) to help track down criminals–FS and State people in the fire industry need them to keep the narcissists at bay in their work. The Yarnell debacle put an exclamation mark on that fact.
Based on all the info so far I am stuck with one observation.
The time frame of the burn out if there was one on the shrine area was after the big run into Yarnell before the GM crew left their rest area. My conclusion would be that any burn out after that run would not affect the flame front that ran at the crew.
Correct me if I am not seeing something that has been posted.
I would believe that some one could have fired the road when they had the wind to their back. This would have been a fire out and not a Back Fire. This would keep the fire from running back and crossing the road should the wind shift. But we still have no solid proof of that either.
Yes Bob makes sense since the road was there–However then there should have been a fire out as you term it early on in that area since the winds were away from Yarnell even early morning from the Shrine area. ;They were headed in a NE direction which means that a fire out situation would have been good up that canyon to protect both Yarnell and Glen Isla. I say this because I have hiked the area both with Joy and alone. Now with their constant meteorological reports (every 30 minutes?) they would have known to expect a wind reversal. However, what they would not expect would be some ill informed Bosses to take their men down in a canyon above them with no look out, no escape route, in the densest of manzanita, and according to what was said if it can be believed–without 30 minutes of communication to their whereabouts. So even if a burn out did catch those men, nothing at all for fault could go their way. It was the proper and exact thing that should have and would have been done at the time to protect Yarnell and Glen Isla.
Still it goes to show that details like that were redacted so the story line would keep any influence that might taint the reputation of the fire managers as hidden or unknown. The idea seems to be allow only information that makes the situation look to be a good heroic effort.
Perhaps heroic alright, but ill managed and white washed.
While I am on this tack, I think someone should also look into records of how much retardant was really dumped. But that would take a FBI or someone really astute in uncovering fraud and theft. The way the investigation was handled and misinformation distributed I can see how it is possible that someone is faking records and making big money. It did not seem that 500,000 gallons of retardant could be the tally–that is a lot of Jumbo Jet Loads and retardant at 2.50 to 3.50 a gallon runs into some serious money. Anyway it would be good just to make sure people that are hiding and redacting also get a damn good look at their financial practices of handling government money–cart Blanche I might add. I can remember some firms actually charging the government $900 for a claw hammer.
But I will leave that to people involved since mine is only conjecture. Is anyone making too many trips to France and especially Switzerland, driving Tesla’s and living the high life way beyond the fire fighter bosses pay rating and involved in the retardant business? I say it is worth a look and might save the taxpayer some big bucks
. I understand whistle blowers can take notice on that one since proof of government theft pays a whopping 15%–and that could be in the millions. But you better have guts.
Josh Eells, Rolling Stone editor, was one of the people Joy and I hiked though Harper Canyon and that began behind Phil’s Storage Units on the North end of Yarnell. Directly behind the units are some dense vegetation, then the boulder area and after the boulder area were burned out areas in grassland and heavy manzanita. Some of the manzanita. We had taken the longest route of any trip with Josh and on that hike and in that area beyond the boulder mountain were a few places that mazanita did not get burned out. To demonstrate to Josh the severity of going through that manzanita, I took him right through some of the patches. Those were relatively short distances of unburned brush (maybe 50 yards). Perhaps not the proper thing to do for someone not prepared for mountain hikes but he got a good understanding of the difficulty and stupidity to attempt once he saw where the GMHS would do so and the actual photos Joy had shot early the morning of their demise in that death canyon next Helms Ranch.
He wrote a lengthy article and publised it –Joy might give the date on that.
We have all known the fire was poorly Managed. Planning a burnout early seams to be not in any ones mind. When the emergency hit that would have been the time a crew Engine or hand may have decided to protect what they had the ability to as the moved down and out the road. This maneuver still has a lot of problems not addressed. The investigation also said nothing about it. This whole thing was a mess from beginning to end.
My training and Idea of a escape route was no where near what GM did. I am one of those that would never have left the burn. I could have also sited a lot of reasons why to any supervisor that thought other wise.
Based on all the info so far I also am stuck with one observation and it’s based on what Joy has been posting on this IM site from the start. There was a firing operation in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor.
.
The time frame of the firing operation burn out – AND THERE WAS ONE – was in the Shrine area. This was the big fire run into Yarnell as the GMHS left their rest area without posting a required Lookout or advising Air Attack of their intentions.
It is true that any burn out after that firing operation run would not affect the flame front that ran at the GMHS.
The Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing operation has been posted here from the beginning. Here is former Yarnell Fire Chief Pete Anderson stating that was the exact purpose of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Fire / Fuel Break.
“Former Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Peter Andersen Interview Oct. 8, 2013”
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFObh-fNOl8 )
We do have solid proof of that in several forums. There are the several witnesses that saw the Yarnell Library video who have posted here and Woodsman, who witnessed it on YouTube until it was pulled.
There are also the numerous separate and distinct smoke columns from various contributors to Joy’s website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) strongly suggesting a progressive firing operation.
Thank you for staying the course Joy and continuing to reveal the truth about the epic human failure of the June 30, 2013, Yarnell Hill Fire. I agree with Joy’s choice to reveal her public record evidence as she sees fit. If you’re not satisfied with what she has been doing, then file your own Public Records Requests and FOIA Requests.
And thank you Sonny for being there with Joy that June 2013 weekend and all your insightful comments recently
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
January 14, 2019 at 3:56 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There was a firing operation in the
>> Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor
>>
>> ( snip )
>>
>> The Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing
>> operation has been posted here from the beginning.
>>
>> ( snip )
Just to be clear… ( and in case anyone is confused now )…
When you use this ‘corridor’ phrase…
Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor
…you are referring to the actual entire dozer-line that was pushed FROM the ‘Sesame’ clearing area, N/NE over TO the Shrine Youth Camp area…. correct?
That is correct. That is what I am referring to.
And Woodsman got it right too
Thanks for clearing that up, once and for all.
And just so everyone understands where that puts us now.
That is an entirely different ‘theory’ than the scenario supposedly seen in the ‘video’ that disappeared, which only appeared to show 2 FFs doing some kind of manual burnout just 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends.
You are talking now about a much larger, lengthier and time-consuming operation.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots are the only ones known to have EVER been working ( on foot ) out on that dozer-line.
Are you saying you now believe they have ALL been liars… in ALL of their testimony and Unit Logs… and they really did set fire to that dozer-line that day?
WTKTT,
You posted: “And just so everyone understands where that puts us now.”
What I posted along with Joy and Sonny – the June 30, 2013, weekend eyewitnesses, from the beginning of this IM website, along with Norb and Woodsman have been holding this line.
“That is an entirely different ‘theory’ than the scenario supposedly seen in the ‘video’ that disappeared, which only appeared to show 2 FFs doing some kind of manual burnout just 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends.”
It is not a “theory” and what appeared in the video that disappeared, like so many other YH Fire pieces of evidence, is factual. Just because these witnesses speak of only seeing 2 FFs in the video does not preclude there being more in the firing operation. It is only what was seen and remembered in the video as well as where it allegedly “ended” in the video.
“You are talking now about a much larger, lengthier and time-consuming operation.”
EXACTLY! However, it is not just now, it’s been going on for a while, here and on Joy’s website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com )
“The Blue Ridge Hotshots are the only ones known to have EVER been working ( on foot ) out on that dozer-line.”
The BRHS are the only ones officially SAIT-SAIR “known” to have been working out on the dozer line.
Working on the dozer line and engaging in a firing operation in that area are two different operations.
“Are you saying you now believe they have ALL been liars… in ALL of their testimony and Unit Logs… and they really did set fire to that dozer-line that day?”
Where is it posted that I believe “they have all been LIARS”? First off, who is “they”?
Everywhere in the BRHS unit logs and notes and statements, it clearly mentions otherwise.
A visit to Joy’s post will help. “Part Two – Who Do We Continue to Distinguish And Read About as the Likely Participants in the Undeniable Sesame to Shrine Corridor Fuel / Fire Break Possible Firing Operation?”
(https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/08/18/Part-2-of-Who-Do-We-Continue-to-Distinguish-And-Read-About-as-the-Likely-Participants-in-the-Undeniable-Sesame-to-Shrine-Corridor-Fuel-Fire-Break-Possible-Firing-Operation)
There is and has been strong suggestive evidence of what Hybrid FFs were involved that firing operation that day. More to follow …
One of the FFs involved in this operation told me that they were directed by their agency supervisors to not discuss the YH Fire with anyone except the SA Investigation Team.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on January 16, 2019 at 4:21 am
Thanks for responding.
Running out of room down here for a ‘Reply’ so see a longer message up above left as a new parent comment…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476436
Yep,
The extensive firing operations that occurred on the Yarnell fire are clear & obvious. I disagree: I’m of the opinion that a portion of these purposeful set fires for suppression did impact GM. The alignment of the topography and changes in weather is more clear to me each day. I will say after review of WTKTT latest flyover simulation, and seeing the death bowl in that perspective: what in the everloving FRICK must they have been thinking? Mother of God, the fire that rolled up that canyon had to have been absolutely horrific! Not even close to survivable.
Back to rebuilding my saws. It’s what I do in the snow season…i love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning. Smells like victory
Reply to Woodsman post on January 14, 2019 at 5:13 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> The extensive firing operations that occurred
>> on the Yarnell fire are clear & obvious.
Not to me. Not yet.
We’ve made some progress trying to nail down some details of this mysterious ‘video’ that disappeared, and only a few people saw… but that’s about it.
Let’s see some ( more ) evidence.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476366
…and this is only a fragment of what probably occurred on the Yarnell fire. The public was given crumbs where we’re entitled to the whole sandwich. Videos deleted, helmet cam videos altered/muted, unit logs redacted & entire passages withheld, on & on.
Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while. (Me) Back to my beloved powersaws. Amazing machines they are.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vRp7tYWnJJs
RTS speaks loud and clear–He has seen the area in question and being in this business of wild land fire fighting and being a wild land fire fighting boss and instructor until such time as he retired, He would know exactly whether a burn back would be in order at the Shrine–someone whose input would rate a 10 and someone you would stand up and listen to with respect to his knowledge and experience–yet this man is one the State and FS would deny access to records so that he has had to sue to get those. Now does that not smell like rotten fish?
My own estimation (two cents worth since I am only a concerned citizen) would be absolutely–the winds never threatened Glen Isla or Yarnell in the morning—and in fact would have been away from both towns and the reversal direction expected was also away from Yarnell and Glen Isla.
Take the example of Ben Palm during the Tenderfoot Wildfire just a couple years later that started about two miles as the Crow flies SE of Yarnell–over that mountain behind the East side of Yarnell and down the canyon road that leads to Stanton. That whole east side of the mountain abutting Yarnell was dense manzanita. The winds were South Eastwardly so the fire was already directing the fire toward the extension of the Weavers on the East side of Stanton. In other words it was blowing away from Yarnell and the prevailing winds were continuing as they always do-more or less toward the SE. With no thunderstorms treatening in the East or SE, the winds would continue their usual diredtion for that area, and they did for a solid week as I remember. Well I was living there and refused to leave during that fire so I know they never changed direction for a long time. Yet Ben Palm almost immediately started a long burn along the east edge of Yarnell proper–Joy was there taking photos again so there is a proof record of that one.
So yes, I would have agreed with Mr. Palm–He did not save Yarnell like the papers touted but it made him look good and the forest service backing him for the media–misinformed as they were since that fire would have continued its direction away from Yarnell and eventually burned itself out–there is relatively barren desert at that end of the Weavers. And if it turned more Eastwardly then some ranches toward Wagon Wheel might have been threatened. Stanton proper was a safe area–well surrounded by that type desert.
The good thing was that Ben Palm set an example what Gary did mention–that is what we wild land fire fighters do–burn. In fact, to my estimation that is probably primary above cutting line. Cutting line as far as I can see will keep the fire from spreading if it is going away from you or has no wind to effect its direction. But the perhaps approximately 5 mph wind and then the 20-30 mph reversal meant that line cutting in front of such a monster would have nil effect on even retarding the fire. In the movies you can slay with your sword the dozen headed dragon that towers the size of the Eiffel but in real life, unless you have invented the bazooka, forget it.
So Ben did some good because not only did we get an example of how the wild land fire fighting crew does things (burn backs fast), he did a good job of clearing the brush from that mountainside–yet I do not know where his particular fire starting effort continued too since it actually started a separate fire that was more north to the origional one and would have covered an entirely different zone than that one something or someone started two miles to the SE in that canyon. He did burn a couple sheds–but the damage was minimal.
The Jumbo did a good job on that one since they laid the retardant almost perfectly along his back burn so you could see that red band right next to dwellings all along the east side of Yarnell proper. It put out his back burn going back into Yarnell but the burn back up the mountain was quite successful at continuing toward Wagoner.
Amount of retardant used on the Tenderfoot ordeal, I have no idea. I had heard it was about the same as the first fire–since Yarnell would not have been the only target for retardant drops in that fire. The good thing was that the winds were approximately in the 5mph range so perhaps that retardant worked in the more desert like areas where it was due to burn out.
It would be hard to define someone’s particular idea of what they had seen some five years before. Certainly one person could describe that with few trees since there were bare spots in the area and describing a scene, especially 5 years later can be hazardous. What cinched our memories were the fact that we actually went there. Of course since then the area was burned out and new vegetation appeared. The rock foundation is however still there.
It would be my opinion that people seeing the work of the drip torch in the area were looking at what was happening but not necessarily registering the vegetation, trees and etc.
What is irksome is the fact that video was removed. Another thing about the same time we tried to retrieve the official document that restricted the half section including the death canyon on June 16–about two weeks before the actual fire happened. That was on a Forest Service Website found either by Joy or she would know who. She showed me the document and I remember that she took the time to point out the official seal of the State or Forest Service–I know it looked very official and was signed below by some high rated person who could take such action. Why those two documents would be redacted alerted us to the fact that there was likely some reason these were being hidden. It would be nice to have that person that sealed and signed the document on the Congressional Stand to see his reasons. My own conclusion was there was a purpose to destroy anything that might bring a bad light on the actions of the FS and others managing the Yarnell fire. When it comes down to it, omission of facts helped create the scene that the Managers of that Fire wanted to present to the public. So far they have pretty much presented the situation the way they planned and the public is pretty well happy and easy to please–yet it had not presented the public with the real story.
There is more to the proof of a burn back –likely we will even get the times it was done but because Joy can not jeopardize some careers, those people will have to come forward themselves. They may never except in private meetings with people they know–or again they may in time–especially if they leave the FS show, tell what they know. The burn information is valid but we just do not have the details and in my personal case only the vision of those torches being used along that dirt road above the Shrine.
Certain one thing, Joy has it down and from personal interviews. I know she will have a positive record of things and if she had to go under oath at a Congressional hearing, she would come forth with facts that could only be forced out of her by that type legal method and such that it could not hurt the careers of certain people. Once it goes before Congress then they would dare not punish people for speaking the truth and of course no one would want prison time for presenting lies to Congressional investigations.
I do hope the people working to get it before Congress can make that happen.
Oh, Hallelujah, brothers and sisters! Praised be!! Can I get an “Amen!”?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PKKVVnKjr2g
Why do you want to beat the bushes for a 🐒 when an 800 pound 🦍 is sitting in your living room?
“Jake?…. are you ALLRIGHT?”
Whoops,
Please disregard the link I previously posted if you want to see Jake “See The Light” and find redemption. I didn’t know we had another “Blues Brothers” aficionado in the House. It’s longer, but…we’ll worth the time.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xbq0OuJtErs
Oh…and one more thing.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476333
And the difference between you and HAL 9000 Joy, is that he puts his evidence on the table for all to evaluate, whereas you say “trust me” and maybe some things might be revealed some day…perhaps.
As President Ronald Reagan said, “Trust but verify.”
I have never said trust me Gary
I have said
Lives Matter…Safety Matters and others have more data
I also come here and said a comment that ended in a court room.
Has wtktt? or you? and it was a dumb comment that ended up in court…you wrote harsher stuff then me.
Mic dropped.
I wish somebody would sue me. I have written everything I can think of to make that happen because I am bored and I need a challenge.
Bonus Link with a few words from HAL 9000 on the importance of IM…I think?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=0h0m8s&v=qDrDUmuUBTo
You know…other than writing my 📖 📚, because that bores me also. I need to go out and kill something, except I abhor violence. I think I’ll buy a dog. I miss my dog.
Although you are impressing the hell out of me with all of these classes you’re taking. You are going to end up to be quite the FIRE expert…either that or have a psychotic breakdown and I think it’s 50/50 right now? Or maybe 49/51 in favor of the psychotic episode?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0mjWpTIuSvk
Check out my rock diving Yorky mix.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kF34SYIc70Y
OK…OK…I get it. Neither if those videos are FIRE 🔥 related, but this one is!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_CZanU5kanU
Especially check out the beautiful Bell 205…man I love all of the variants of the Bell Iroquois Huey! Wop…wop…wop!
Its hard to tell in the video, but it’s a CALFIRE copter and the fire is on the Del Norte Coast Redwoods State Park.
http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=414
The original Bell UH-1 Iroquois Huey! WOP…WOP…WOP…FOREVER!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56Zs9BKHpP8
Come to ALASKA, my birthplace…The Land Of The Midnight Sun and The Last Frontier with me!
Whoops…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=26Uo1cFle1U
Although I think when I shot this video, CALFIRE was still California Division Of Forestry. You can tell how old it is because the video quality is so poor (2009).
Oh…and one more thing. I wasn’t born in the Great State Of Alaska…I was born in the U.S. Territory of Alaska.
And no…I didnt want to work on my book tonight. So….
And my York’s mix taught that Lab to dive for rocks too, but he never got very good at it, but he thought he was supposed to do it. It was pretty funny.
Found some more firefighting helicopter videos.
Sikorsky S-61 or SH-3 Sea King
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=II_MG0asYQc
And a better video of the CALFIRE Bell 205
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gj2njgUq2w
And finally…a Boeing Vertol CH-46. or CH-46 Sea Knight
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4SAEwXBZotw
And another one of my dog.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WW0vtyqwi2A
You’re welcome!
Whoops, I meant a Boeing Vertol BV-107 II,
I think I got all of those helicopters right?
I mean…everyone or almost everyone in the Yavapai County Cosa Nostra FIRE culture tried to sell the Yarnell Hill Disaster as sometimes bad things happen while fighting wildfires. And we just have to accept that as a fact of life and move on as best we can. I also might add they were very successful is selling what I call the Big Lie to almost everyone. I still remember the press release and explanation that was put out of Senator McCain’s office that essentially repeated that lie.
I lack the vocabulary to adequately express just how far from reality I know that lie is from the truth.
What happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots was anything but just one more bad thing that can happen to anyone at any time while fighting a wildfire because it is an inherently dangerous job and the fire just unexpectedly “blew up.”
As I have written before…what happened to the crew on the YHF was so far off the chart in our known universe, it literally required everyone to completely discard their “Oh Shit, Oh Dear, Fuck Me O’Meters” and construct completely new ones from scratch to use to gauge not only that fire, but what is now within the realm of possibility of happening again because we were already catastrophically proven wrong once.
That event was just that far from anything that should ever have been even remotely within the possibilities of what could happen to a hotshot crew ever. in a worse case scenario. Even decades in the past all of the way back to the first hotshot disaster fire in history. And although the Loop Disaster of 1966 and the deaths of 12 El Cariso Hotshots was really bad…it wasn’t nearly as bad as what happened on the GMIHC on the Yarnell Hill Disaster.
Well…darn it. This comment should have been posted at the bottom of the thread below because now it is out of context…just FYI.
And at the risk of repeating myself some more, which by the way I think is okay just as long as they repeat the Big Lie, the Loop Disaster was completely understandable and easily explained from the moment it happened.
Understanding the deaths of the 12 El Cariso Hotshots is as simple as looking at it as though it is a Paint By The Numbers picture and simply following the numerical values in their proper linear sequence.
Simply start with 1 and then draw a line to 2, and repeat until you get to the number with the highest value and that completes the picture that explains why those 12 hotshots were burned alive.
There just isn’t any numbers, or picture, or anything else to explain the deaths of the GMIHC on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.
Nothing I know for a fact makes any sense to me so I am left grasping at mere theories to explain what happened and why…however implausible those theories are. Which is frustrating to me to say the least and quite possibly has endangered, and will continue to endanger other hotshots until the truth…all of it, is known and corrective training is subsequently developed based on what the real malfunction was.
Because that is exactly what happened, a precision and highly developed wildland firefighting machine (although RTS and Bob hate it when I talk this way) made up of 20 individuals (there…I fixed it) experienced a catastrophic malfunction and it was completely destroyed along with the lives of 19 of those individuals.
Gary felt- I think I’ll buy a dog. I miss my dog.
Sonny has free husky german shepherd pups- perfect timing 😉
Again…too many died in the first annual of the tragedy locally and I think about the kids and the elders
I miss them.
Woodsman last Fall and his wisdom stuck with me to keep at it but you all fail to get – I follow Him not me or others. so the information comes at His Will and Ways not my own.
As for you feel I have something tangible that will change history…no but there is others that do. that is why I keep publicly and privately sharing – All I could do is the same as Sonny – speak about it but out of respect of where this person is with their case journey we stay quiet but yes there is a huge area still to be shown but hello folks…MacKenzie’s video was not the original….Bob Brandon’s evidence never made it to a report but because of another WF I will be making posts about the folks in the Shrine area soon. I was told by M.R. to enjoy my weekend and take a break from that project and deadline I am on and its snowing here and I am all alone to do that so I will work on a post…may start with Jerry or Bob or Paul Morin…yet I am in a fast so if God wants me to not I will not. I have disobeyed before and never goes well.
Yes I do record time to time but not always
depends where I am…always have with Holly because what people told me behind the scenes and I did with Fernanda and Elizabeth only because what was fed to me so yes and my encounters with Amanda since court. I did not post or share them with anyone just for my own record keeping so they cannot say I said something I did not state.
I did find it funny that to share five years later on YH Fire as keynote “speakers” and then to have Brad Mayhew interrupt cost the organization $ two grand $ and I have this blog freely sharing yet is not free to run it or to gain these records and interviews ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) sharing documents. I am not making a book or movie which in the end these speakers are doing just that. I think making any monies on the tragedy is beyond messed up.
You have your opinion which matches many along with people do not like scripture on my blog. The scriptures stays and I will as God wants it present the posts.
You are not alone. One lady in CA wanted to hurt my throat based on yours and my discussions on IM yet you were not included in throat part as much as me. You get a golden card. I have got the brunt of more shit than you I am sure of it. Actually some of the heaviness I got was based on your comments not my own. Plus you do not live here – I do.
I at least let the kids and elders know there is more and I feel okay because all my days I am doing something for YH Fire…are you every day
I am.
I have not seen my family in awhile – been at conferences after conferences and I look forward to hugging my own dog so I know what you mean on missing your dog.
Joy,
You know how much it hurts when you are so harsh with me because I love and respect you so much!
And I’m pretty sure I have never taken offense to your use of either scripture or invoking the name of Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior…God Bless You and the United States Of America!
Now…you know how much I like to tease you, I don’t know why you keep falling for it? Bob P and RTS figured out the only reason I gave them a hard time was because I loved and respected them so much. Well, at least Bob P,, RTS…not so much because you know…he is a 🍆 👴🏻.
And as far as my smart mouth goes for the Yavapai County FIRE Cabal….I did live in Flagstaff for the first two or three years of this rodeo, but you’re right…I don’t live in that bed of snakes like you do. So I can talk big. I often can’t even find myself much less somebody else finding me to either serve me with papers or you know…hurt me. I’m pretty sure there are some people who would like to hurt both of us. I have always cautioned you to be careful and if I were you, I would definitely be much more hesitant to take a stand like you have and continue to do.
They even have the Sheriffs Office in their Syndicate…I think? Or at least the SO sure seemed to conspire and aide and abet with them to make a real cluster fuck amateur hour with their bogus death investigation of the crew, Dirty…Dirty…Dirty, Shame…Shame…Shame!
And you know I was just kidding about the psychotic episode, you really are impressing me with your dedication and enthusiasm. It’s too bad you couldn’t get a do over in life because you would have made a pretty darn good hotshot. I always liked to have better people than me on my crews because they made me look so much better of a crew boss than I was…way better.
Now…chin up young lady and go get ‘em! Actually check that…you still live too close to the inbred mountain hillbilly crackers known as the Yavapai County Cosa Nostra run by the Boss of Bosses Amanda Beno Marsh Whatever Her New Name Is who thought nothing of manipulating and abusing the Yavapai County Court System to mess with you just like she manipulates and abuses everything in her world because Yavapai County (centered in Prescott) is HER world, she just lets other people live in it as long as they follow her edicts and commands.
And thanks for the tip on where I can get a good dog from Sonny, but I saw on my favorite part of SNL (the only part worth watching now…SNL died with John Belushi and Gilda Radner, not to mention the other former greats who moved on like Jane Curtain, Bill Murray, Tina Fey, Will Ferrell, Dan Aykroyd, Chevy Chase, and Maya Rudolph etc. I just don’t get most of the humor nowadays. They lost me at least one generation ago, I mean…the Coneheads from France…were hilarious! But forgive me…I digress) which is Weekend Update, that like my dog Una taught Barkley the big lab puppy to dive for rocks, Sonny’s dogs have a culture of researching, “How to shoot a gun” on the Internet and I’m not Irish, so…
And I don’t know why some lady from California would be giving you a hard time about your throat, or my throat, or somebody’s throat…you really lost me in that one?
I just don’t really buy into the whole Shrine backfire thing but you do and it seems like The Woodsman does as well, not to mention HAL 9000 saying he thinks something happened. So…we have a big tent here on IM for lots of different opinions and enthusiasticaaly discussing (arguing) things back and forth is how we have historically vetted a lot of different scenarios. So…I have an open mind and your guess on a lot of the still unanswered questions are as good as mine.
And if it is true…it would explain so much of the lying and concealing the truth which does defy logic unless they are doing it just to keep in practice because they have a historical culture of coverups and CYA.
So…if you prove it in the end, I will be the first one to say I got it wrong. I don’t mind being wrong in the short term just as long as we do our best to get it right for the historical record which I am proud to say is here on IM.
Because like The Woodsman said, I still can’t come to terms with the fact and accept that we lost an entire hotshot crew (you know…except for Sad Sack getting lucky). on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Not in this day and age of truly professional, organized, staffed, crews with uniform standards and Standard Operating Procedures with the emphasis on safety and a much greater understanding of FIRE behavior, etc.
I remain DUMBFOUNDED to this day. I was sure so the news got it all wrong on the evening of June 30, 2013. I was so sure that could not possibly have happened…not in our worst nightmare. Right up until the minute our worst nightmare became our reality.
The Internet has been down in this canyon in the middle of Nowhere, Oregon, I live in since the first of the month (this is an iPad on my cell service) and if it ever comes back up, I will update my website with some more photos (when I catch up on my backlog of posts from my primary computer) which will include our crews tribute to the Coneheads,..Beldar, Prymaat and their daughter Connie from the planet Remulak who got stranded in New Jersey during a recon mission…hilarious.
I really like the fact I have so many photos to illustrate what it was like to be on a hotshot crew and fight FIRE back in my day. When I collected thise photos over the years, I never imagined (just as no one else did either…I think?) that I would ever be living in a world of cheap, high speed computers, software, peripherals, websites, blogs, and the internet in general. It’s a brave new world where the opinions of people like Joy and I can be expressed to people all over the world, who are only a couple of clicks on a computer mouse away. Which is all really weird and a little scary.
Oh…and one more thing. I don’t want anyone to feel sorry for me because I am getting a great off season rate at a Three Star resort along the Rogue River and it is really gorgeous here except the WiFi Internet here sucks on a good day.
I hope I haven’t given away my location for you know…anyone who may be looking for me. 🤔
I mean…in our culture, if you make it to SN you are a real celebrity.
I just think surviving a shotgun blast through your back which comes out your chest…as you literally watch fragments of your body mixed in with shotgun pellets fly away from you…is really the hard way to make it on SNL.
What an amazing story of survival!
A shotgun blast at point blank range.
And besides that, you generally can’t own a German Shepherd unless you live off the grid or at least own your own home and quite possibly fail to inform your insurance company you own one of the breeds they refuse to underwrite…so you on on your own if something bad happens and you run the risk of having your policy cancelled if they find out you own one of the prohibited breeds.
I have been living off the reservation for some time now, but I’m not ready to live off the grid. I’m just not as tough as you and Sonny are. Too much good living for far too long. I got spoiled…and I became weak. I don’t want to even find out what Rattlesnake tastes like….even if it dies taste like 🐓
Not tough at all to live off grid– But Joy is a person as tough as one can be living as would the early pioneers and we did for some time–
I moved up in life to a trailer and a F-150 4×4. Best truck I ever owned but damn it likes fuel with that big engine. I like the v 6 better that is in my chevy but it would be hell to put it in the ford. Anyway the 4×4 passes anything but the gas station and I like the coffee at Love’s.
Someone is going to say Sonny is now trailer trash. But I know trailer trash and it ain’t me babe. I was seeing people wear those elongated boots with long points–I call them clown boots–Well you see people wearing the elongated slippers as well so be have both clown shoes and clown boots now. Those long clown boots with points ought to better at killing cock roaches in the corners that the older shorter models. I wouldn’t recommend them in a stirrup, especially on dismount you likely would get hung in a stirrup and horse dragging can be devastating.
One thing is a good boot can hang you to a bar stool real nice –I have tried that myself and keeps you from falling backwards.
Something that might be useful here would be puke troughs at bars. They have those in Mexico–I think if I had another Cantina to run, I would install them. That rot gut can get to your stomach.
My biscuits are ok cooked in a cast iron covered skilled and I have a sweetpotatoe in tin foil inside the wood stove. I will add some butter and coconut oil and have some good old pioneer cuisine These biscuits aren’t half-bad..
But I do believe my Dad was the real pioneer and prospector. Mom stayed with him 50 years until she passed–but had instructions to not be buried anywhere near him. Both sisters hated that life and my brother was not far behind in his thinking as well. Not for the weak hearted for sure or any good for a lady’s life.
When I was a kid attending school I would smell like smoke since Mom was cooking breakfast on a camp fire. Actually that was a good deodorant since baths were scarce due to having to haul water. He would have been arrested for child neglect these days but I loved that life–It was free and I had all the desert and all the forest depending on where he was prospecting –Nothing like the freedom of the wild and someone to share it with.
You learn to do things that way and I really think Thoreau was a man after my own heart even though he was English and down graded the Irish. He just did not know how much more intelligent we are not falling down before a queen. But of course each person should be seen by his merits, not his Englishness or Irishness. But I can be proud of my gene pool–they were survivors and still are despite the many hardships and invasions of the homeland.
Guiness is one of the world’s best beers, if not the best. I keep a few in my ice box in case of emergency or should a thirsty fire figher or other show. I had three the day I was shot so in case I had gotten stuck, I had those for the long hike back to my abode. There is plenty of food value in those things and they can encourage you on a hike. And no, I was not drinking those and driving , in fact I had not drank anything for over a week–strictly energy packs for hiking. Some people take bottled water which is fine but no vitamins there.
And we still don’t know…why?
Gary, I too like the Blues Brothers–my pc does not have sound but also the James Brown music. as well as the western and Spanish Fandango type and classical in some forms.
Well Mexico loves the Blues Brothers as well and they carry on the legacy. There is a fat Mexican and a skinny Mexican dressed exactly like the Blues brothers including hats, sun glasses, and suits that host a TV show every night out of Juarez. You couldn’t make a better duplicate of those guys–only thing they bring in music and dancing girls–not much of the Blues Brothers style music but entertaining if you like that type show. All in Spanish though.
😎 😎
Thanks WTKTT–Then according to weather updates the wind was to the south or south west until at least 3:01 and somewhere thereafter switched and by 4:01 was above 20mph. With hourly reports it then may have switched anywhere between 3 and 4 Pm. Thanks for the info on the distance–I had judged it to be about a mile and a half but it is closer to 1 mile. It would be something else to estimate how fast a fire would go from the Shrine to the Helms area. The figures given by I believe Willis were that the fire was moving at 11 mph from the north end of that ridge. Coming from the main fire where Donut was at the knoll would have been almost on a level plane until it went around that ridge, then proceed with a slope–maybe 5 degrees to where the men were. I would have thought it would have funnelled next to the North ridge at least at first after coming around the north ridge. However if the fire were coming from the Shrine then it would be in direct line to the men–no ridge interference there. If that fire came from the Shrine at 11 mph then it would arrive at the Helms at between 5 and 6 minutes. Because there is about a ten degree slope, if what the FS puts out is true–fires double velocity going every ten degrees, then we would expect that fire to have arrived in half the time from the Shrine once it jumped out of the canyon. We do not know exactly when the gusts came or when the wind did change. But it is a wow factor to realize how quickly that thing would have gone uphill from the Shrine area.
Then you know exactly when Donut had been picked up but was there any talk of exactly where Donut was seeing the fire coming back his way. From where Donut was there were actually two ridges that fire would have by passed to get to the Death Basin. I think distance wise, it would have been a ways farther perhaps 1.5 miles between the Helms and say the Old Grader very near where Donut was sitting. The Canyon between the Donut Station and the Death Canyon was a much narrower canyon–also the one we went up to meet the two track. It was as dense as the deployment site, however, you had a meandering sand wash that alleviated some of the effort. Even the wash had plenty of vegetation so you were in and out depending upon the catclaw and manzanita you would encounter.
Yes I could see now why that they would want to get rid of any evidence that there was some burning in the Shrine Area– Anything there could easily have cut the men off and in less time than you could make 100 yards through that manzanita as it was in the Helms area.
I do not know who the people Joy did interview or am knowledgeable to what was said. However, I do believe Joy has firm evidence of a burn back or burn out in that area. I can understand her holding back in the interest of the people she interviewed due to possible and likely sure repercussions–perhaps both to her and those she interviewed. I am certainly like Gary or WTKTT, one reason it is good for me not to be a witness on these things–I would tell it because I think it is imperative the people that have been hurt so badly should know. I do know someone was going to court and that was being a reason for holding back some information and the other parties were working with a Congressman to get a Congressional hearing. I do not know where that is time wise–but my understanding is that they have some damn strong evidence. They do not want their names out there at this point and I can understand that. I have met the people and they carry credentials that would put them in league with respected investigators. My understanding is that once they get audience with the Congress people and something goes in motion there, then we will get the whole of the evidence they have at hand. So I will continue to respect their anonymity and since I have not seen their evidence my only role has been to support their efforts and I do applaud them since I do know they have put a lot of time and personal monies into their work.
should have said wind was to the N-NE until 3.01 PM and switched–Hell I was there watching it head toward the thunder storms to the NE. Actually from where the Storms were you would have expected that cold air to come barreling down almost directly to the SW which your azimuth readings should show.
I read the Bob Brandon story posted by WTKTT–sounds like a decent guy. I wonder why he hangs up on Joy? She would ask him did he know of a burn out or burn back in that Shrine area and he does not seem like the guy to tell a lie. Maybe he would take the 5th on that question? Well I can understand cause Joy does get to the meat of things but only wants to know facts and after that interview from the first Chief, I hope Bob has not learned his bad habits of giving disinformation out to the public–you do not do that with Joy–she records your answers and is dead serious when it comes to questions about the Yarnell Fire. And I should say rightly so–citizens have the right to the truth and when you have someone withholding information and giving out falsehoods then how can we believe any of that group that were involved in the Yarnell Fire.
I take it there is a resentment toward citizens who want to get to the facts when it comes to questions of what our public servants are really doing with the public tax money that supports them. It would seem you really do need a citizens group to keep an eye on things.
How many passes with a Jumbo Jet would it take to dump 500 thousand gallons? Well it depends upon the Jumbo Jet and even how much they do actually load on board. The problem is when you get reports from some of those people that have a bit of authority, you can never tell if it is the truth or not.
Certainly Joy should have reported that Chief of Peeples Valley since she had his recorded lies and he was telling them with a straight face. What kind of people do they allow to run these fire departments?
Joy has posted on her website photo of two separate smoke stacks ( a goodly space in between the stacks). I do not know the time of the photo but it might give some indication of when a burn out or burn back would have been.
All I have is that I know there were two men doing burning with drip torches just above the Shrine area. That is a given. But what it means I do not know–for all I know they could have just been learning how to use those things right there and that is all they did–but it was a strange time to be learning the art of burning since I do remember the winds were up at that time:
Reply to Woodsman post on January 10, 2019 at 3:06 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I’m not “totally contradicting” what Sonny claims to have seen in the youtube
>> video. I’m like Norb, I focus on what I’m accustomed to seeing – wildland
>> firefighters doing wildland firefighting things…like drip torches, number of
>> personnel, the fuel break they’re burning off of, the fuels, the weather etc.
>> There very well may have been an old block foundation in there but my
>> brain wouldn’t concentrate on that.
>>
>> The video that Sonny saw may not necessarily been the one I saw.
Yes… but see below ( regarding the whole ‘timber/trees’ thing).
Is it time to say we can be SURE that we are talking about MORE than one video now?
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> MY time estimate is certainly before everything went to shit because the sun
>> was shining and it was not dark. The wind was not “whipping” is was low to
>> moderate. The fuels were shrubs and grasses – no timber. (stated for the 3rd time now)
Since you have stated ( yes… for the 3rd time now ) there was ‘no timber’ ( sic: trees ) at all in the video YOU saw… then I’m assuming we can at least take THAT recollection to the bank.
Since that is the case… then forget the ‘wind’ or ‘wall’ or ‘light level’ observation stuff for a moment.
In the video that Joy posted at the exact location where both she and Sonny say they saw a video being filmed ( 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends )… it’s pretty much impossible for any video filmed at that location to NOT be showing ‘trees’.
Again… here is that video that Joy took at that location just a few weeks ago, on December 20, 2018…
https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw
Joy actually ‘spins around’ and basically shows all 360 degrees at that location.
There is not one possible camera view, at that location, that does NOT clearly show ‘trees’.
So is it time to call that a CONFIRMATION, then, that YOU did NOT see the same video that Joy and Sonny are saying THEY saw?
I’m still just trying to make some progress on all this.
It wouldn’t bother ME one bit to learn that ( as you already suggested ) there are, in fact, MULTIPLE videos that now have to be accounted for.
Truly. It would not surprise me at all.
But if that really is the case it would good to know, at this point and going forward ( which is where, I hope, we are still going ).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I hear what you’re saying on the available evidence, I really do. I simply believe
>> everything is not available to us at this time for final vetting of the scenario.
I’m not even near hoping for a ‘final vetting’ stage. Not yet, anyway.
I was hoping to just get through the “What can be known for sure” phase first.
At the moment… there is still confusion about even how MANY ‘burnout’ videos people might have actually seen… WHERE any/all of them might have actually been filmed… and WHEN any/all of them were taken.
Ultimately… it’s going to take people who might have been involved in any of these ‘burnouts’ to come forward and ‘tell the story’.
Even then… a lot of ‘vetting’ would still have to take place.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> What I need is this:
>>
>> A “simulated flyover” of the area of the Shrine and Youth camp travelling WSW
>> toward and through the BSR, deployment zone, and ending on the saddle where
>> the crew dropped in.
>>
>> I need before and after satellite images of the area to compare fuels and their
>> burn intensities.
>>
>> I need a flyover showing topography of the entire area in a 3 dimensional rendition.
Okay… here you go…
The following video contains ALL of what you just requested…
https://youtu.be/BGyNWBVSaME
This is actually something I did for calvin, yesterday, when he requested a workup on one of Air Attack Rory Collins’ photos.
So that’s where the video starts… with a ‘crossfade’ into/outof Rory Collins’ June 30, 2013 aerial photo with the filename “LookingSE.jpg”.
But it’s also much more than that, and I just ‘updated’ it to include everything you just requested.
After it fades to/from the photo into the equivalent Google Earth view TWICE… it then ‘takes off’ on a complete TOUR of the Yarnell area, including a ‘close-up’ flythrough of the Shrine area, and then back WSW over the dozer line, BSR, deployment site, and saddle ( as you requested ).
Video Description:
——————————————————————————————————-
A crossfade in/out of Air Attack Rory Collins’ photo named ‘LookingSE.jpg’ which he took at 2:41:48 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 while flying over the Yarnell Hill fire. The last half of the video is a ‘flyaround’ of the entire Yarnell area, including a closeup look at the Shrine Road / Youth Camp area. The yellow line on the ground in the video is the ‘dozer line’ that was pushed on the old firebreak road that connected the Shrine area and the Sesame Street area.
——————————————————————————————————–
Some other things to NOTE about the ‘fly-around’…
1. The first half of the ‘fly-around’ uses PRE-FIRE satellite imagery, dated December 30, 2012… only 6 months prior to the 2013 Yarnell Fire.
2. When the ‘fly-around’ gets all the way to the Shrine Road Youth camp and ‘pauses’ there… in a few seconds all the background satellite imagery now changes to a POST-FIRE view. That imagery is dated January 1, 2014… just 6 months AFTER the 2013 Yarnell Fire.
So the PRE-FIRE imagery is 6 months BEFORE, and the POST-FIRE imagery is 6 months AFTER.
3. The ‘fly-around’ itself will PAUSE at various locations so you can ‘take in the view’.. but it is, of course, just a VIDEO and you can PAUSE it yourself anywhere you want.
4. In the video… that location at 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine road ends ( and where Joy shot her video on December 20, 2018 ) is marked with a RED balloon with the letter ‘W’ on it.
The ‘W’ stands for “The Waltraud Property”, which is where those rock walls / foundations are located and where the multiple structures were before we SEE them burning down circa 5:30 PM in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos.
Thanks. Very helpful. At least for me.
What time of day was the dozer line (represented by the yellow line) constructed?
Reply to calvin post on January 11, 2019 at 3:59 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Thanks. Very helpful. At least for me.
>>
>> What time of day was the dozer line (represented by the
>> yellow line) constructed?
**** The SHORT story…
Between 2:10 PM and 3:30 PM.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes told Brian Frisby to tell HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball to start that project in a face-to-face conversation at 2:01 PM
Frisby then told Ball to get Paul Morin and his dozer working on that dozer-line project circa 2:09 PM.
He did, right away, and the dozer started from the Sesame area and worked N/NE over towards the Shrine Youth Camp.
Paul Morin and his dozer arrived there at the Youth Camp a little less than a half-hour later, at 2:36 PM.
Morin turned the dozer around, and then ‘improved’ the dozer line some more going back the other way and back towards the Sesame area where he started.
He was finished with this dozer-line project by 3:30 PM, which is when the Blue Ridge Hotshots then started ‘spreading out’ on the newly-pushed dozer-line to start ‘prepping’ it for a possible burnout, later that evening, if necessary.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots never finished ‘prepping’ that dozer-line.
They only worked on it for about 30 minutes before being told to evacuate the dozer-line and quickly return to their vehicles parked at the Youth Camp.
**** The LONG story…
The whole ‘idea’ to use the dozer to improve that old road between the Sesame area and the Shrine Youth Camp didn’t even enter the picture until between 2:01 and 2:09 PM, when SPGS1 Gary Cordes met in-person with Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ( at the dozer loboy staging location where the pavement of Manzanita and Lakewood ended ) and told them that’s what he wanted the dozer to do next.
From Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
—————————————————————————————
As we were heading out towards highway 89 to see what the main fire was doing we ran into ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes ). We let him know what the dozer had gotten done and what we were seeing for fire behavior. He then let us know that he wanted the dozer to push an old two track to a old fuel break which would tie into Shrine rd. He said this would cut off most of Yarnell, he also told us of a trigger point he had to evacuate Yarnell was a ridge just due north of town. We got ( Cory Ball ) pushing the two-track with the dozer. ( Trew ) and I headed up 89. We notice the west flank running pretty hard towards the Hwy. There were many citizens parked along side the Hwy watching the fire.
————————————————————————————–
The TIME ( according to the Blue Ridge GPS tracking logs ) for the moment when Frisby and Brown met up with Cordes at the dozer loboy staging area ( before they headed north on Highway 89 ) was exactly 2:01 PM.
They stayed there ‘talking’ with Cordes ( and doing all the other things Frisby desrcibes above like getting Cory Ball to start that new dozer-line project ) for 8 minutes… and then, at 2:09 PM, they began doing the next thing Frisby says they did and they headed out to Highway 89, and then north, to go see what the fire was doing from that north-Highway 89 vantage point.
They were up there on the north part of Highway 89 observing the fire for about 20 minutes.
On their ‘return trip’ back to Yarnell is when Frisby and Brown went down the Shrine road to the Youth Camp to see if Cory Ball and Paul Morin and the dozer had reached that location yet.
They almost had… and the dozer arrived there moments later, at 2:36 PM.
** DOZER FIRST REACHES THE SHRINE YOUTH CAMP AREA: Circa 2:36 PM
From Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
—————————————————————————————–
We ( he and Trueheart Brown ) then went back toward Yarnell to Shrine Road to see if the dozer was getting close to tying in. As we got down to where the dozer was going to tie in we noticed a couple of type 6 engines around the structure. We could hear the ( dozer ) and ( Cory Ball ) called to let us know he was getting close
—————————————————————————————-
The TIME now ( according to the Blue Ridge GPS tracking logs ) for that moment when Frisby and Brown ‘got down to where the dozer was going to tie in’ ( at the Shrine Youth Camp ) has always been exactly 2:35 PM.
Brown says that they could ‘hear the dozer’ approaching the Youth Camp at that moment ( 2:35 PM ), and that Ball called them to say he was getting ‘close’.
Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon was already ‘staged’ there at the Youth Camp, and keeping an eye on the PVFD vehicles Tender T-64 and Brush Truck E-54, and he had his camera out.
One minute later, at 2:36 PM, Bob Brandon took multiple photos of the dozer actually ‘arriving’ there at the Shrine Road Youth Camp.
In his own words, in a public BLOG post he made on the ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group’ website, Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon described the moment like this…
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html
—————————————————————————————
Probably mid-afternoon, the bulldozer came rambling through the woods. It kind of looked like Jurasic Park, knocking down trees, clearing a roadway. When it arrived at our location, I was just sitting by my tanker taking pictures of it because it was just kind of an awesome site.
When he pushed though the woods and got to our location, all of a sudden, he turned around, did a 180 and took off. He never finished the roadway he was supposed to do for us. We were confused because now we had to finish it by ourselves.
—————————————————————————————
So just shortly after having reached the Youth Camp, at 2:36 PM, Dozer operator Paul Morin just ‘did a 180’ and left the area, heading back down the dozer line and back towards the Sesame area where he had started.
What FF Bob Brandon didn’t seem to know ( at that time ) was that Gary Cordes had also already instructed his TFLD(t) ‘Task Force 2’ leader Tyson Esquibel to get HIS resources to put in a ‘saw line’ there at the Youth Camp from where the dozer-line would end, on over to the ‘Rock Pile’ on the north side of the Youth Camp.
** DOZER STILL SEEN ON THE DOZER LINE AS LATE AS 3:30 PM
Paul Morin and his dozer finished improving the dozer-line around 3:20 PM.
At exactly 3:30:02 PM, HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball took the following photograph ( with his network-connected and time-correct iPhone 4S ) of Morin’s dozer still there on that dozer-line between the Sesame and Shrine area(s)…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAD72skvle6Io8jtO_DmLQn7a/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Ball?dl=0&preview=IMG_1883.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
In that photo, taken looking northeast, the dozer is ‘blade up’ and just driving southwest, passing the Blue Ridge Hotshots who are now seen walking out onto the dozer-line to start ‘prepping’ it.
The photo was taken near the WEST end of the dozer-line… because we can see the ‘barbed wire fence’ that was there in the left side of the photograph.
Dozer operator Paul Morin was now possibly just heading back to where the dozer loboy trailer was staged down in Glen Ilah where the pavement of Lakewood and Manzanita ends.
It is actually still not fully known what happened to Paul Morin and his Yavapai County dozer after Cory Ball took this 3:30 PM photo.
He ended up on the list of ‘missing persons’ that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was supposed to be ‘looking for’ following the burnover and deployment… because no one seemed to be sure whether he ever made it out of the area that afternoon… or where he was when the burnover took place.
Yavapai County Dozer Operator Paul Morin was never interviewed by ANY investigators.
I reviewed Joy’s video again and it’s just shrub, grass, and some scraggly small trees (that have grown in the last 5 years) – no timber. I’ll get back to you after review of your latest flyover. One thing I will ask: you said in a post to Norb down below that the image you have in the video is “immediately after” the fire. In the video I’ve already seen that you developed in the last week you said it was an aerial image 6 months later. Are you using the terms “immediately after” and “six months later” interchangeably here? Thanks
Yes as I remember there were plenty of trees in the Shrine area and as I remember oak and one seeded juniper what we commonly call cedar trees–I know them because I spent several years clearing them on a ranch north of Tularosa, NM after the shut down of the timber we were falling near Cloudcroft, NM. That was not clear cutting but harvesting of certain marked trees–and that was stopped due to the small spotted owl. Shortly after that time there was one hell of a forest fire that took out a huge chunk of the forest west of where we were working–always a question of whether harvesting in that manner helps. The area burned had not been thinned. Either way my memory is par excellent on the fact of where the burning was an the drip torces for reasons that we spent so much time making sure that was the foundation/rock structure that connected to the burning and even to the fact that Joy and I took a trip to Peeples Valley to see if there was a clone to the area.
Now it comes to mind and Gary thanks–you always mentioned the fact that the main idea is to burn out where possible to save an area. Well first the road itself was a break that men did not have to do. Second that area needed to be burned back and third the meteorlogical information was known and relayed. It was known the wind would change and even a dozer line was going to be made along the north edge of Glen Isla–The dozer was unloaded and even broke down a wall of the Walker residence right on the edge of Glen Isla. We got that from a legitamate source so to speak–the daughter of the owners right in the American Legion–I was there when she told Joy about the damage they saw after the fire with dozer tracks left to the wall. The home burned so it did not matter but proved the dozer was on site By the way, that lady only in her 40’s is now deceased from cancer. She told us her lungs were bothering her after the fire incident–We had become friends with her and miss that lady-Ms. Walker.
So it absolutely makes sense that you would put men in the Shrine area to do a burn out timed as soon as possible before the wind reversal which could have been even early that morning since a burn out would not have threatened Glen Isla nor Yarnell with the fires going toward Peeples Valley (Northeeastwardly away from Glen Isla and Yarnell). True there were boulders to protect the North end of the few buildings in that area and as Joy said though just North of the Shrine were areas of grass and manzanita among the boulders but still there were even boulder areas protecting the North end from those grass and manzanita areas. By the way, also there was a Jumbo Jet load of retardant dropped in a North to South direction in those boulder areas and with the wind directions by then away from that area anyway. None of the houses on the North end of Yarnell were damaged along with Yarnell below the Shrine area in the down town business area.
So does the Yellow line in the video mark the burnout line? I understand from source anonymous that it does. The timing of the burnout is crucial–What time would you pros think it would have been started and does the yellow line make sense? All I have knowledge of is that a burn out did happen (those drip torchers were lighting up vegetation) and now the important thing is the total extant of it and when.
On a dumbphone at the moment so need to be brief.
I’ll address the new issue now about what is a tree and what isn’t in another post later.
Regarding aerial photos in videos…
The 2 aerial photos in the video about the SAIT fireline chart we’re both taken just after the fire, on July 2, 2013.
The aerial photo at the start of the new Rory Collins video was taken by Collins himself on June 30, 2013.
The SATELLITE imagery in the Google Earth’s flyaround in the Collins video is the stuff that is dated 6 months before the Yarnell fire and then ( in the last part of that video ) 6 months afterwards.
Does that answer your question.
The death of Kathy Walker I chalk up to another retardant death. She is missed, brought a smile and often a laugh out of me when we met at the Legion. That slow killer got a lot of good people, especially those that breathed in plenty of the fumes after their return to Yarnell–including myself. My first heart attack was in Helena, Montana after I left Yarnell. It was misdiagnosed as something else and I was given a morphine shot to quell the pain. I did get to visit with Ted Putnam there as he was visiting the site some twenty miles north of there at Mann Gulch. That was one of the many trips he had made to the site to try to make sense of how those men were killed. A testimony to his thoroughness of an investigation. He told me he had been some six years investigating and interviewing the last surviving witnesses about the fire that killed 13 young wild land fire fighters. His conclusions led to another cover up where the State and FS did not want to take responsibility–so disinformation became a thing in that one.
He experienced similar happenings in the fire deaths he investigated during the Storm King incident that killed 14 and he could not sign off on due to good conscience and the fact the thing was not properly investigated and that eventhough he was chief of the investigation and would have serious consequences to his career if he did so.
It is the shame of the States and FS to degrade these investigations to aggrandize the system and people managing it while compromising the lives of future wild land fire fighters.
The other shame is that a movie producer would use people such as Amanda and managers that wanted to make the Yarnell Fire Look like a wonderful award winning job instead of the dismal failure it really was. So they skirt people that have the highest of credentials and you can put Dr. Ted Putnam as one of those people. His 15 years as a smoke jumper and incessant work to make wild land fire fighting safer would make him a priority for consultation on this Yarnell incident–you can bet that he was never contacted.
But he is one among the many Joy and I had come to know and respect for
their concern about how that Yarnell incident was played out by the SAIT and others connected to the FS and State Departments involved in the cover up at Yarnell. If you go down the list starting from John Daugherty and all those wild land fire fighting experts posting regularly on this site well named Investigative Media, you will come to understand the truth of the fire.
I do hope the Media, Congressmen, Authors, Producers and other influential persons lend ear to the professionals that have been there and done that and are ready to share their expertise to expose this tragic white wash of lies, redactions and cover ups that have plagued the investigation and truth at what happened at Yarnell to rank it as the Century’s Worst Wild Land Fire Fighting Effort.
Yes. Thank you
WTKTT,
Nice work on the video! I have been on site three times and this still helps me get oriented. Couple of questions for you – do you know where Darby Star and crew were putting in saw line?
We know what time resources were pulled out of that area, but is there any record of when the arrived in the area? I really don’t recall seeing anything, but hopefully you have something.
**
** BLUE RIDGE CAPTAIN TRUEHEART BROWN…
**
** “MAKING SURE IDIOTS AREN’T BURNING THEMSELVES OUT”
While it is still hard to find any existing ( non-deleted ) photo or video evidence of any kind of ‘manual burnout’ emanating from the Shrine Road Youth Camp all the way up to about 4:27 PM on the afternoon of June 30, 2013…
…there actually IS ( and always has been ) a very compelling piece of ‘evidence’ in the public record that MAY be proof that fire WAS being manually laid down in that area AS all the crews were evacuating from there.
That ( possible ) proof comes in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos filmed at the Shrine of St. Joseph.
Let me explain…
It is just before 4:37 PM, on Sunday, June 30, 2013, and just two minutes before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call was about to hit the Air-To-Ground radio channel, at 4:39 PM.
Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby and Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown are just now arriving at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot in their Polaris Ranger UTV.
They have just finished ‘chasing’ everyone out of the Shrine Road Youth Camp area, due to the fireline now coming over the ridges in that area, and they are ‘bringing up the rear’ and are the ‘last ones out’ of that area.
As they pull up to the parking lot, Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd are already ‘staged’ there to meet them.
Aaron Hulburd is, at this point, filming everything that is happening.
Frisby and Brown pull up to them and stop, and Brown is the first one to speak.
Brown says “Hey there” to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and the conversation between them begins.
The full video containing this exchange between Brown and Yowell is here…
Aaron Hulburd Video Title: M2U00264.MP$
http://youtu.be/t75k7o_L6B8
Here is an exact transcript of the start of that conversation, at +3:06 into the video…
———————————————————————————————————
+3:06 ( 1636.29 / 4:36.29 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Hey there ( guy ).
+3:07 ( 1636.30 / 4:36.30 )
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): What time is it? Is it dark, or what?
+3:08 ( 1636.31 / 4:36.31 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): It IS dark ( up here ).
+3:09 ( 1636.32 / 4:36.32 )
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): How ya doin’, guy?
+3:12 ( 1636.35 / 4:36.35 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!
+3:14 ( 1636.37 / 4:36.37 )
(Aaron Hulburd): We figured you guys were bringin’ up ( the rear ).
———————————————————————————————————
So the very FIRST thing BR Captain Brown ‘reports’ to Yowell, after having just chased all the other firefighters out of the Shrine Youth Camp area, is the following…
“Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”
The “God DAAAMN!” is with full vocal emphasis on Brown’s part.
He’s a professional Hotshot, who has been to a lot of fires and seen a lot of stupid people do a lot of stupid things… but what he ( apparently ) just witnessed out in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area still elicits a strong ( and incredulous ) “God DAAAMN!” from him… as if the ‘stupidity’ meter just went off the end of even HIS chart.
Think about Brown’s choice of words for a moment.
Yes… he and Frisby just had to make SURE all those guys back there were getting out, and they did report ( in their Unit Logs ) having to YELL at some of them to ‘hurry them up’.
But if it was just a case of having to hurry people up to get out of the way of a naturally approaching wildfire, you would think Brown would have said something more along the lines of…
“making sure idiots aren’t getting burned UP”
OR
“making sure idiots don’t get burned UP”
OR
“making sure idiots don’t burn UP”
But that’s not what Brown said. He said MORE than that.
He ACTUALLY said…
“making sure idiots aren’t burning THEMSELVES out. God DAAAMN!”
Not simply “burning UP”… Brown specifically said “burning THEMSELVES OUT”.
Brown’s choice of words implies that he and Frisby had to just prevent a bunch of “idiots” from “burning themselves OUT”.
It’s a subtle difference… but might be very important.
The fact that Brown used the ( specific ) phrase “burning themselves OUT” actually implies that what he and Frisby just had to do back there in the Youth Camp area was prevent a bunch of “idiots” from harming THEMSELVES due to a badly-timed and badly-executed BURNOUT.
I think we can also be sure that when Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown was referring to other firefighters as “Fuckin’ idiots”… he was NOT referring to his own Hotshot crew.
Hotshots, in general, just don’t do that sort of thing.
Trash talk OTHER units to other people… yes… but call your OWN crew a bunch of “Fuckin’ idiots” to some OTHER ( Non-Hotshot ) fireman?
Not likely.
So Brown must have been referring to some ( or all? ) of the following ( in his own words ) “Fuckin’ idiots” who he and Frisby just had to chase out of the Youth Camp and keep THEM from “burning THEMSELVES OUT”…
——————————————————————————————————-
Peeples Valley Fire Department
1 Water Tender – T-64
1 Brush Truck – E-54
Four crewmen…
Jacob Moder, Ronald Smith, Bob Brandon and Matthew Keehner
Sun City Fire Department
1 Type 6 Engine – Sun City Engine 103 – LIC# G-264EF
Four crewman…
Darby Starr ( Engine Boss ), Coy Boggler, Jarret White and James Flint
Central Yavapai
1 Type 6 Engine – E-59 – LIC# G-682DV – Front Plate: CEY-P59
Four crewman…
Charlie Reyes ( Engine Boss ), Ryan Ferris, Steve Emery, Matt Mcfadden
Glendale Fire Department
1 command vehicle.
1 TFLD(t) in charge of Yarnell ‘Task Force 2’ – Tyson Esquibel.
———————————————————————————————————-
SIDENOTE: Unless more evidence emerges, that ‘list’ above is, I believe, pretty much the full list of who was known to have been working in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area in the late afternoon, on June 30, 2013.
Yep. On most initial attack fires with personnel involved “that’s training and job description constitutes all facets of fire & rescue services and not just wildfire emergencies, ” I find myself in 2 primary roles:
1. Wildfire suppression
2. Keeping morons from killing themselves….GOTDAAAAAMM!!!
It’s roughly a 50/50 split.
My opinion is there’s a very good reason it’s nigh impossible to locate any surviving hard evidence of the burnouts that occurred at Yarnell Hill in the public record.
I will say I love those folks because of their skill set when needed is needed but it doesn’t change the reality that they can be truly dangerous to themselves and others at times. Gotdammmmm!
Cordes, when informed of GMs entrapment said “bullshit, they had plenty of time to get there.” Did he mean time to get there before the main fire arrived or before a flame front from a manual ignition arrived? Or something else?
The irony is that the GM leadership may have played a role in training the personnel whom ultimately contributed to their predicament at the fire academy. The USFS played a role in the academy as well, I’m sure.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 7, 2019 at 3:18 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Cordes, when informed of GMs entrapment said “bullshit,
>> they had plenty of time to get there.”
Ironically… the person who ‘informed’ Cordes of that was CYFD Engine 59 crewboss Charlie Reyes.
Engine 59 was one of the ones back there at the Shrine Youth Camp that afternoon.
It is still unknown how Reyes heard about the deployment… but since his engine is seen leaving the Shrine Parking Lot area just moments before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call, at 4:39 PM, then the only chance Reyes had at hearing that radio traffic would have been while he was still evacuating the Shrine area and driving down to the Ranch House Restaurant.
So obviously Reyes was able to hear most/all of the Air-To-Ground radio traffic that day.
But Charlie Reyes was ( as far as we know ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE.
Neither was anyone else from CYFD ‘Engine 59’… which had been working in the Shrine Youth Camp area that afternoon.
Reyes and his Engine 59 crew still might be the “idiots” that Truehheart Brown was talking about in his recorded conversation with KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Darby Starr and his engine crew were known to be cutting that ‘saw line’ in Harper Canyon, with the help of Peeples Valley FFs Don Smith and Jacob Moder…
…but it’s actually still a mystery what the hell Charlie Reyes and the crew of his Engine 59 were ACTUALLY doing out there at that Shrine Youth Camp.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Did he mean time to get there before the main fire
>> arrived or before a flame front from a manual ignition
>> arrived? Or something else?
There’s no evidence that Cordes was aware of any ‘manual burnouts’ taking place that afternoon.
Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. But if he WAS ( aware )… then he’s always been lying about it.
He had asked Frisby ( via radio ) about the ‘possibility’ of burning out the entire dozer line ( as planned ) circa 4:08 PM.
Frisby said “NO”… and the ( official ) ‘burnout’ plan was never initiated.
From Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
————————————————-
Approximate time: 4:10 PM, June 30, 2013
I then headed for the Supt truck ( parked at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita pavement, where the dozer loboy had been staged as well ) I met ( Ball ) there and I was called by ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) on Tac 1 and he asked if burning the two-track was still an option. I told him NO, and that if it hasn’t yet, it will burn over the two-track very quickly. He copied and ( Eric Marsh ) called and agreed with what I said and he said where the ( GM ) trucks were parked was all black.
————————————————-
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The irony is that the GM leadership may have played a role
>> in training the personnel whom ultimately contributed to
>> their predicament at the fire academy. The USFS played
>> a role in the academy as well, I’m sure.
There’s always been a lot of “you can’t make this shit up” irony associated with this tragedy.
I still think it is downright ‘creepy’ that the same individual who was the last person to ‘sign off’ on Eric Marsh’s DIVS taskbook would then become the same person to audio record DIVSA Marsh’s final words out at the deployment site.
Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd.
Datura, commonly known as jimsonweed smoke, that may have affected the judgement of the GMHS crew bosses was mentioned by someone before in a post. Smoking jimsonweed or getting doses through the smoke of a burn seems pretty remote and according to users will produce horrific hallucinations-why that person asked.
It is public information that Marsh had been a marijuana smoker. But I do not believe that MJ would give you the high energy we saw in Marsh that day. About the only drug that could help you move like a deer was something the Peruvian Indians had used for centuries to give them energy and open their lungs to travel unheeded in the high altitudes. Of course they chewed the coca leaf but it was the alkaloid content later isolated into concentrates of cocaine that users began to take. Sigmund Freud used it, promoted it and Coca Cola used it in their soft drinks and that was a successful business proposition–Sales skyrocketed and continued from up until 1922 when cocaine use became illegal.
I believe I have shared my own experience with MJ. I had a friend named Jeff. His wife and he were smokers of Mj but I have all my life been suspicious of drugs of any sort. Now Jeff had his own plants and even wanted to use my corn patch garden to put a few more in. I never allowed–we both had 5 acres and water wells, but I am one to live and let live. Somehow he finally convinced me to take a few whiffs of the thing he had rolled. We were driving my old ford on a dirt road and about five miles from home when I suddenly shrunk to an altitude of two inches. I told Jeff how the hell am I driving when I am only two inches high. He laughed and said cause this is good shit. Needless to say unlike Clinton I had taken a good whiff and felt the effects.
But maybe it was a good thing for me because I never wanted to shrink like that again–what if someone stepped on you. But it did cause a fear in me in the Uranium mines where I knew the men that were driving those huge diesel machines up and down the drifts were also tokers. There is only barely enough room for one of those to pass along most of a drift and that if you stood sideways as it passed,. So you would find me running down the drift to find a cut out when I would see their lights coming.
Lots of miners smoked pot–and especially when I was in California–there the hippie types would work in the mill–I did drink their wine after hours but did not engage in their drug. So many have said, well try it again–the first time likely was a bum trip. No thanks.
These days it is becoming legal–actually I could qualify for a card here in New Mexico- and perhaps if I had a smoke this gunshot pain when I flex my arm would disappear but then I might too. If you like it fine with me–Isn’t America great–free to do your thing as long as it does not hurt those around you. Well maybe not altogether.
So these drug reformed addicts that attend AA, are all of them reformed? Not by a long shot. But that can keep people, police, judges, etc off their backs. Well certainly many are reforming there but then there are those that are not. The temptation to continue using drugs is enormous and some of those people are highly ingenious at hiding their habit from loved ones and others. I did manage a half way house in Las Cruces for a couple years–trying to help drug users, alcoholics and paroled prisoners to assimilate back into society. See I have a bat hide to qualify me for such work–something I also did for the Probation Department in El Paso Texas. That is another story but where am I going here with this one.
Oh–how marvelous it was to see the energy of Marsh, yet how depressing to see the men on the way up the mountain to get to the fire edge that Joy and I had already visited. We were going down the two track while they were going up. So it went down to a ravine then the two track again ascended to a near level two track that parallels the top of the Weaver Range. From where we passed them and we built a monument back toward the south where they eventually went, it is about a half mile of hiking to the point where Joy was resting and had her boots off while I was escaping then returning to encourage her to get the hell out with me pronto.
If you don’t like hikes you can actually see the two track about three quarters of the way up the Weaver Mountain side and even where they went down just by walking a few yards–maybe 50 to the north of the Cafe where all the firemen had gathered after the demise of the men. And if you have fairly decent vision you will be able to see people walking the two track from that location and with binoculars certainly.
One thing I have never tried is Cocaine and do not expect to at least in this lifetime. But its effects would have been to make one able to carry on like a mountain goat and up and down and about similar to what amazed me about how Marsh could move. Am I saying he was on Cocaine–not at all. Probably no sign of that since these men had to be in top shape. But do we have toxicology reports and were those allowed or deemed redactable and private?
I apologize since some of you are saying why doesn’t Sonny know this–it has to be old news–I just missed it like so many other details.
ome time ago someone mentioned that it might have been datura plant, I think
Again that bottom remark came from the top–my computer thinks better than I do. So I am not spaced out but my computer is.
I’m pretty sure the drug of choice in the mines these days Sonny is speed…crystal meth. I know that’s what keeps the roustabouts goin’ 24/7 up on those deadly oil drilling rigs up in the Four Corners in the ice, snow and dark of night. It used to be coke…but now it’s all meth.
Thanks for that WTKTT–Those conversations sound to be that Trueheart had knowledge that some burning was going on and he was concerned that those men doing it were in danger of getting themselves trapped? But I would like to hear from some of the wild land fire fighter bosses whether that is their take on Trueheart’s reaction and conversation he had with the men. It seems someone was burning–but what does it mean “burn themselves our”?
Correction I meant “burn themselves out”? typing error
Reply to Charlie post on January 7, 2019 at 9:22 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Those conversations sound to be that Trueheart had knowledge
>> that some burning was going on and he was concerned that
>> those men doing it were in danger of getting themselves trapped?
Yes. It’s hard to interpret that statement of Brown’s any other way.
At exactly 4:36:35 PM, he CLEARLY says ( to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell )…
“Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”
He seems to be CLEARLY saying that he just had to stop “idiots” from doing something bad to THEMSELVES ( as in… burning THEMSELVES out ).
There is absolutely nothing in either Trueheart Brown’s or Brian Frisby’s Unit Log statements that support and/or elaborate on this ( recorded ) statement of Brown’s.
There is also nothing in the published copy of the SAIT’s interview notes with the Blue Ridge Hotshots… and the ADOSH investigators were never allowed to interview ANY of the BR Hotshots at all.
Only Trueheart Brown himself could say what he really meant by that statement, but there is no evidence that anyone EVER asked him to explain it.
Captain Brown has an interesting choice of words. The other point of interest in this conversation is the fires shape on the fire perimeter map in this area (Youth Camp). The fires edge makes a distinct “loop” around what appears to me to be around the area of the Youth Camp. I am not a Fire Behavior Analyst but in my experience there are only a few explanations for this “loop”.
1. The main fire ran out of available fuel (not the case here)
2. Aggressive suppression action to push the main fire around this area (again not the case here, when the fire went to shit resources were evacuated)
3. A firing operation prior to the arrival of the main fire in an attempt to keep the main fire out of the youth camp
In my opinion number 3 is the explanation for the “loop” in the fires edge (your mileage may vary). Fires shapes typically don’t “loop” in that manner without human intervention.
There is a massive boulder-covered hill directly to the north of the youth camp which may account for the diversion of the fire around the camp.
Wrong
I will lay my life down on stating this FIRM
That Harper Canyon was all boulders yet at one point ( June 30 2013 and before ) the top of that was a large meadow. Fact check with archival maps please but I know I am right…its
my terrain since the 70s and that area was with with much much fuels and. Tex and I took Rolling Stone editor right after the fire to see that exact area
So yeah…boulders but hell there was too much fuels there WITH evidence still to be shown
Chime in Tex
Remember hiking Josh
I am in a Sattelite conference.
But I asked Tex to post this but I dont see it:
I wanted to stick up for you to Wtktt for saying your confused
Please post this below only on my behalf not the above:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACjXUZXUTol5xdSHlORGsTqa/Photos%20and%20Video/Jerry%20Thompson%20Photos%20Videos?dl=0&preview=IMG_1134.3gp&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
At 34/104
Explain to me Wtktt why the separate plumes
to the left is the Corridor
to the right is the Harper Canyon
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACjXUZXUTol5xdSHlORGsTqa/Photos%20and%20Video/Jerry%20Thompson%20Photos%20Videos?dl=0&preview=IMG_1898.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Sonny…this is Sun City West Jerry Thompson, who was on a brush rig during the fire, gave these June 30, 2013 photos to Mike Dudley, a member of the Accident Investigation Team…the same man Mike Dudley who got Bob Brandon’s stuff along with Clay Templin and never made it to the report so please tell me that this is ALL of Jerry’s data in pure form? I would like that clarification from the man Above.
Has all Thomas stuff been made public?
Okay, if that massive boulder field did divert the fire around the camp then what prevented the fire from backing in (after the main fire front had gone through) from a different direction? It certainly wasn’t stopped from suppression forces since they had all been evacuated. In my three visits to the site I have pretty much retraced the crews footsteps and frankly the majority of the fire area seemed like a large boulder field laced with fuel between the boulders.
I was just speculating and presenting a hypothetical.
I’m still not absolutely sure I know the EXACT location of where the camp is (was), but I have always assumed it was just past the Shrine parking lot on the right, in the location where several structures DID burn. If that IS the location, there is a hill butting-up against the camp, which tops-out at approximately 200 feet higher than than camp, and which, would seemingly block some of the wind from hitting the leeward (south) side, along with (perhaps) slowing the fire spread down the leeward side, as well. Also, the south face would have less vegetation than the rest of the hill. This could account for the fire advancing around the sides of the hill quicker than over the top and down.
In any case, it appears the fire got into the camp and burned structures if my geography is correct.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post on January 7, 2019 at 6:37 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> I’m still not absolutely sure I know the EXACT location
>> of where the camp is (was), but I have always assumed
>> it was just past the Shrine parking lot on the right,
>> in the location where several structures DID burn.
Your assumption is correct.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> If that IS the location,
It is.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> …there is a hill butting-up against the camp, which
>> tops-out at approximately 200 feet higher than than camp,
Correct.
This was the “Rock Pile” that both Gary Cordes and Tyson Esquibel talked about in their ADOSH interviews, and the designated ‘termination point’ for the oveerall ‘dozer line’ project ( which was never fully completed that day ).
It was the job of Darby Starr and the other FFs in the Youth Camp / Harper Canyon area to put in ‘saw/hand line’ from where the dozer had stopped, just west of the structures at the Youth Camp, and ‘tie’ the dozer line into that “Rock Pile” on the north side of the area.
This is exactly what Darby Starr and the others were doing when the fire started coming over that ridge and it was time to RTO and “get the heck out of Dodge”.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> …and which, would seemingly block some of the wind
>> from hitting the leeward (south) side, along with
>> (perhaps) slowing the fire spread down the leeward
>> side, as well. Also, the south face would have less
>> vegetation than the rest of the hill. This could account
>> for the fire advancing around the sides of the hill
>> quicker than over the top and down.
Once the fireline hit the top of that “Rock Pile” ridge… the winds were already so strong that it was spotting down into the Youth Camp area below.
Just before Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown started driving out of the Youth Camp area themselves, Frisby was recorded talking to Cordes ( at 4:33 PM ) and telling him they were “pushin’ your folks out”, and the fire was now “Pushin’ down on us pretty hard” ( in the Youth Camp area ) and that there were already “Multiple spots” there in the Youth Camp.
From the very start of Aaron Hulburd’s video M2U0064
http://youtu.be/t75k7o_L6B8
————————————————————–
VIDEO M2U00264 STARTS AT 1633.23 ( 4:33.23 PM )
+0:03 ( 1633.26 / 4:33.26 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Structure, Cordes.
+0:05 ( 1633.28 / 4:33.28 PM )
(BR SUP Brian Frisby): Yea… just lettin’ ya know we’re… ah… we’re in on those structures on Shrine… we’ll be the last ones in here… we’re pushin’ your folks out.
+0:13 ( 1633.36 / 4:33.36 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Real broken.
+0:16 ( 1633.39 / 4:33.29 PM )
(BR SUP Brian Frisby): Uh… How ya copy now?
+0:19 ( 1633.42 / 4:33.42 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Try again.
+0:20 ( 1633.43 / 4:33.43 PM )
(BR SUP Brian Frisby): Yea… just lettin’ ya know we’re in on those structures on Shrine right now… we’ll be the last ones out and we’re… ah… we’re pushin’ your folks out. Multiple spots. Pushin’ down on us pretty hard.
+0:31 ( 1633.54 / 4:33.54 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Copy. Get out to the highway.
————————————————————–
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> In any case, it appears the fire got into the
>> camp and burned structures
Yes. It did. ALL of them… including the multiple structures on the WALTRAUD property, which was right there on the south side of Shrine Road where the driveway entrance to the Camp itself was.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post on January 7, 2019 at 12:40 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> There is a massive boulder-covered hill directly to
>> the north of the youth camp
Yes, there is.
In their ( separate ) ADOSH interviews, both SPGS1 Gary Cordes and TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel used the same phrase “Rock Pile” to describe that geographic feature just north of the Youth Camp.
This “Rock Pile” was supposed to be the ‘termination point’ for the dozer line that they were planning to ( possibly ) burn out later that evening… if the conditions remained right to attempt such a burnout.
That ‘plan’ was never put into action ( according to everyone involved ).
This “Rock Pile” was also what Gary Cordes kept referring to as his “Aw Shit Ridge”…. and the trigger-point for all firefighters evacuating the Shrine and Harper Canyon area(s) immediately when the fire reached that ridge.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> which may account for the diversion of the fire around the camp.
The fire did not ‘divert around the camp’ at all.
That entire area was, essentially, ‘moonscaped’ by the fire.
All the structures at the Youth Camp burned to the ground, as well as those multiple structures there on the WALTRAUD property, which was there where the entrance driveway to the Youth Camp meets the dirt part of Shrine Road.
I only mentioned the “diversion” in reference to Norb’s comment that apparently on a fire progression map, he saw that the progression seemed to circle around the camp. I posited a theory as to why it might have done that. I ‘get’ that the camp burned to the ground, but the actual fire front (not including spots), could have come around the bend first, before it worked it’s way down through the rocks from the top.
This is not unlike the theory that the fire came roaring around the bend when the crew first saw it,and not over the top of the boulder strewn hill on the north-side of the bowl.
Copy that.
But if Norb was referring to the ‘fire progression maps’ as published in the original SAIR and ADOSH reports… that ‘little loop’ in the fireline he was referring to was not over the Youth Camp… it was over the Shrine of St. Joseph itself ( which was known to have only partially burned ).
No report ever ‘detailed’ how the fire actually ‘flowed’ into the Youth Camp area.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots photographed the flame front cresting over that ‘Rock Pile’ ridge just north of the Youth Camp… and then everyone got the hell out of there.
Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were the last ones out, and as they left they told Gary Cordes ( over the radio ) that the fire was “Pushing down hard on them” in that area and there were already “Multiple Spots” as they were driving out.
What happened after that is not known ( in detail ).
SIDENOTE: With regards to the fire coming OVER the north ridge of the box canyon… there are actually photographs that prove that never really happened. Photos taken from the deployment site still show TREES ( unburned ) on the tops of that rock-pile ridge on the north side of the deployment site. So the fire must have flowed AROUND that north-side-ridge, and not OVER it.
It must have around the North ridge…or ran straight up the box canyon following the topographic features. Maybe the “vow of secrecy ” the firefighters swore themselves to was actually a friendly fire/manual ignition burning over the crew in the box canyon (where they had no business being), and killing them all? Food for thought maybe?
Must NOT have come over the North ridge to the box canyon, is what I should have said.
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 7, 2019 at 11:55 am
>> Norb Szczurek said
>>
>> Captain Brown has an interesting choice of words.
Yes. It’s hard to read what he said ( to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) any other way than to assume he was exasperated with having just had to stop some “idiots” from “burning THEMSELVES out” with some kind of badly-timed, badly-executed burnout attempt back there near the Shrine Youth Camp.
There was no mention of this in Trueheart Brown’s own Unit Log, the SAIT interview with Blue Ridge never mentions it… and the ADOSH investigators were never allowed to interview any of the Blue Ridge Hotshots at all.
Down below… you wrote the following…
>> On December 17, 2018 at 10:54 pm Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> I have said it before and I stand firm that I did see the video
>> that has since disappeared . We did walk by the rock wall ( foundation)
>> on my first visit to the site, and I remember that. In the video I
>> remember two FF’s with drip torches – don’t remember helmet colors
>> but yellow shirts and green pants (of course).
…but you never ‘chimed in’ regarding the NEW video that Joy took at the point where the video was filmed, 100 yards west of where the pavement ends on Shrine Road.
The video that Joy took at this rock wall/foundation site just 18 days ago, on December 20, 2018…
https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw
The photos that Joy took of the rock walls / foundations at this same location on June 11, 2015…
https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k
Does ANYTHING in EITHER of those two videos look familiar to you?
Are those the rock walls / foundtations that YOU remember seeing in the video?
WTKTT said:
“There was no mention of this in Trueheart Brown’s own Unit Log, the SAIT interview with Blue Ridge never mentions it… ”
Have unredacted full unit logs from BR ever been made available? Or the SAIT interview transcripts? How about the helmet cam audio as Frisby, Brown & the 3 amigos were searching for GM after the deployment on atvs/utvs? THAT audio was absolutely strategically creatively “altered” by the scumbags that be, it was a joke. Point being, we obviously have serious gaps in the record that shouldn’t be relied upon to make concrete judgments of what did or did not happen back in the Shrine area. And I don’t think you are doing that but I wanted to throw this out there anyway.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 7, 2019 at 11:54 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Have unredacted full unit logs from BR ever
>> been made available?
No.
As far as is known… ONLY Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Lead Investigator Brad Mayhew ( and others on the SAI team? ) are the ONLY ones who have ever had possession of the FULL ( unredacted ) Blue Ridge Unit logs… including the still-unknown number of complete PAGES that have always been ‘missing’ from the end of Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log.
It has never been proven… but it is highly likely that Dudley or Mayhew ( or others on the SAI team ) were the ones who actually did all the ‘redactions’ on those Unit Logs for USFS when they were finally forced to release them via FOIA request(s).
Oddly enough… the missing full PAGES of Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log that were completely ( and illegally ) left OUT of the FOIA response(s) cover the time just before he and Brown were about to evacuate the Youth Camp… and on through everything that happened that day following that.
You can’t just ‘leave pages out’ of an FOIA response. That’s illegal.
You can still ‘redact’ shit ( and claim some kind of FOIA exemption for the ‘blacked out’ parts )… but you can’t just REFUSE to release entire pages of documents. You still have to deliver the pages with whatever ‘blackouts’ you think you can get away with.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Or the SAIT interview transcripts?
Nope. Same deal. It is still unknown if what the SAIT released and called ‘Interview Notes’ bears any resemblance to what was actually said during those interviews… or whether there are ‘other’ pages or notes that were ( illegally ) never released at all.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> How about the helmet cam audio as Frisby, Brown & the
>> 3 amigos were searching for GM after the deployment
>> on atvs/utvs? THAT audio was absolutely strategically
>> creatively “altered” by the scumbags that be, it was a joke.
Yep. SOME of those ‘redactions’ were, in fact, moments when KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd were ‘speaking’ telephone numbers… and USFS claimed a ‘privacy’ exemption for those ‘bleep outs’… but the rest of the ‘redactions’ were done for what they tried to claim were ‘Sensitive Information’ reasons.
That’s not even a valid FOIA exemption claim, under the law ( unless it has to do with National Security ).
And who is to decide what is ‘sensitive’? The very people who don’t really want to obey the law and respond to FOIA requests in the first place?
That’s why the law was created. To STOP that kind of behavior ( by making that kind of self-editing ILLEGAL ).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Point being, we obviously have serious gaps in the
>> record that shouldn’t be relied upon to make concrete
>> judgments of what did or did not happen back in the
>> Shrine area. And I don’t think you are doing that
>> but I wanted to throw this out there anyway.
No. I’m not doing that. The only reason I mentioned that Brown’s statement about having to stop “idiots” from “burning themselves out” appears nowhere else but in that Hulburd video recording was to make the same point you are making.
‘Concrete’ judgements require ‘Concrete’ evidence.
But that being said… it’s also not possible to ignore evidence that IS available… and CAN be ‘verified’… and DOES show whether some things were happening at certain time… or NOT.
Trueheart Brown’s statement is just one example.
He said what he said. No question.
How that fits into the ‘big picture’ remains to be seen / discovered.
Yep. Guess I got my hackles up a bit when you said this potential ignition recollection wasn’t in Brown’s unit log (that we can read) so it must not have occurred or was documented.
Additionally, if PAGES of Frisbys unit log are absent as well……great googly, there is potential for serious pertinent information that would help answer a veritable mountain of questions about what actually happened on the fire.
I sure would like to talk to both Brown & Frisby in person. They both strike me personally as honorable men who would like nothing more than to clear the record for the betterment of the industry and all the participants including citizen stakeholders whom incidentally pay for all this.
Your rehash of the record to help guide my thought processes on an ongoing basis is immensely appreciated.
The search for missing puzzle pieces continues…I will say, I think we are getting warmer each day…for whatever it’s worth…
Reply to Woodsman post on January 8, 2019 at 8:15 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> if PAGES of Frisbys unit log are absent as
>> well……great googly, there is potential for
>> serious pertinent information that would
>> help answer a veritable mountain
>> of questions about what actually happened
>> on the fire.
You damn betcha.
Including what Trueheart Brown might have been talking about when he told KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, at 4:37 PM…
“Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”
Here is the final paragraph of the last page of Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log. He is describing the final moments of the evacuation of the Shrine Youth Camp area, when he and BR Captain Trueheart Brown were ‘pushing’ all of the other firefighters OUT of that area…
——————————————————————
I then told ( Trew ) we needed to drive up the draw and push those guys out. Our crew had loaded up and left. As we got up the draw we ran into a group of 3 or 4 folks, we told them they needed to get in their trucks and leave. The individual said they were leaving but there were more and they weren’t listening. We kept driving up the draw and saw the rest of them pushing out. We told them they needed to hurry and we followed them out. When we got back to their trucks I stressed to them that they needed to hurry. We were getting multiple spots and…
————————————————————-
That’s it.
Frisby’s Unit Log ENDS right there… mid-sentence… and that’s the LAST PAGE of his Unit Log that was released.
Anything Frisby had to say about any moment after that, for the rest of the day, has NEVER been seen publicly.
It’s VERY strange that the last paragraph is him describing the scene out at the Youth Camp… and then the last sentence is…
“We were getting multiple spots and…”
The REST of that incomplete sentence, and the top of the next ( missing ) page could have been something like this…
“…then we saw some idiots attempting to do a burnout
on the side of Shrine road near some structures. We told
them to stop, to keep them from burning themselves out, and
to get the hell out of the area RIGHT NOW.”
WTKTT,
Its been so long since seeing the video that I cannot say with 100% certainty, but my brain keeps bringing me back to the first two still photos. Again its been awhile and the wall was not really my focus at the time. My focus was on the FF’s with drip torches, mainly because a former participant of IM had insisted to me that NO firing operations occurred. In my 38 years in the Fire Service I was skeptical of that statement, seeing first had on numerous occasions that firing operations do happen, aren’t always communicated or well planned, and usually take place when things are going to shit. By the time I went back to share the video with this person it had been pulled.
Sorry I can’t be of better help on this one, just can’t say with 100% certainty. Thanks for your continued efforts, maybe we can piece enough together to finally eat this piece of the elephant, then move on to the next bite.
Still curious about the “loop” fire perimeter around the Shrine area (thanks for location clarification)
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 8, 2019 at 12:21 pm
>> Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> Its been so long since seeing the video that I cannot say
>> with 100% certainty, but my brain keeps bringing me back to
>> the first two still photos. Again its been awhile and the
>> wall was not really my focus at the time.
First and foremost… THANK YOU for hanging in there on this and your honest response. Yea… it’s been a long time.
I never saw this video… at all… so that’s why all the questions and why I can’t offer any ‘recollections’ myself.
As for those “first two still photos” in that ‘slideshow’…
Even as sure as Sonny is that the video showed a burnout taking place right there about 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends… he said those ‘still photos’ that Joy took at that exact location on June 11, 2015 are (quote) “NOT at all” (endquote) and (quote) “NOTHING like” (endquote) the same wall he says HE saw in the video.
Here is that exchange from down below in this chapter…
————————————————————————
On December 20, 2018 at 1:26 am, WTKTT asked Charlie ( Sonny )…
Did you get a chance to look at those first THREE photos in that video ‘slideshow’ link?
https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k
Are those photos of the ‘rock wall/foundation’ you saw in the ‘burnout’ video?
On December 21, 2018 at 11:24 am, Charlie ( Sonny ) replied…
Not at all WTKTT. This is a rock wall but what I saw in the video is
barely a foot or so in height and was a part of a foundation. We need
a photo of the actual thing we saw. I never took one but someone will
eventually get one and post it. Nothing like that photo I looked
at on the site you posted.
————————————————————————-
So even though Sonny was DENYING that the ‘rock wall’ photos Joy took on June 11, 2015 bear any resemblance to what HE saw in the original video… Sonny is still also absolutely positive that the video was showing TWO firefighters with drip-torches in that location on Shrine road, about 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement turns to dirt.
The ‘confusion’ about this ‘wall’ could be chocked up to the fact there were a number of walls / foundation thingies at that WALTRAUD property location. Maybe they were all visible in the video, at one point or another, and one person saw one of the walls that was there while maybe another person maybe saw a different one.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> My focus was on the FF’s with drip torches
More questions, then…
Do you recall what the WIND was doing in the video and/or near the FF’s with the drip torches?
Blowing HARD… or not at all? Trees swaying?
Wind Direction? ( in relation to the camera? )
Also… do you recall what the general LIGHT LEVEL was in the video?
Was it getting DARK, in any way, or were the FFs and the background clearly visible… perhaps even with some SUN shining on the ground?
Last question…
You already said your ‘focus’ was not on any ‘wall’ that might have been visible in the video… but do you recall actually seeing any STRUCTURES, or any part of one?
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> a former participant of IM had insisted to me that
>> NO firing operations occurred.
There were actually ‘firing operations’ going on all over the place that day.
The Engines and crews that were assigned to do structure protection up in Peeples Valley were all pretty much ‘burning shit out’ all day long around the houses they were told to protect. Plenty of photos and videos prove that.
But as far as any large-scale burnouts go… the only ones known to have happened that day were the ones Granite Mountain attempted to do that morning, up at their ‘anchor point’ location ( until Air-Attack dumped SEATS on those burnouts )… and the burning out of Hays Ranch Road by Darrell Willis’ crews as they were evacuating from the Double-Bar-A Ranch up in Peeples Valley.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> In my 38 years in the Fire Service I was skeptical of that
>> statement, seeing first had on numerous occasions that firing
>> operations do happen, aren’t always communicated or well
>> planned, and usually take place when things are going to shit.
And ( correct me if I’m wrong )… if an Engine is assigned to do structure protection and the Engine Boss decides a little ‘burning out’ is what is needed at that location… he/she doesn’t usually need anyone else’s ‘permission’ before just going ahead and doing that, right?
Because that MIGHT be what happened out at the Shrine Youth Camp.
There were THREE Engines ( and crews ) assigned to the Youth Camp Area.
There were all part of SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ ‘Structure Protection Group 2’, and one of the floating orders was to do ‘structure protection’ wherever it might do some good.
So regardless of the fact that the main ‘dozer line’ project was never completed, and the planned large-scale burnout was never initiated… I suppose it remains possible that one ( or more ) of those Engine crews at the Youth Camp Area might have taken it upon themselves to start doing what they believed were simple ‘structure protection burnouts’.
Obviously none of that was successful ( if that is what happened at all ), because ALL of the structures at the Youth Camp and on the WALTRAUD property ended up burning to the ground… but that doesn’t mean some Engine Crew didn’t TRY and do something to ‘protect’ those structures, at some point, including putting some ‘fire on the ground’ out there.
And maybe they didn’t feel like they needed ANYONE’s “special” permission to do that. Not SPGS1 Cordes. Not TFLD(t) Esquibel. Not anyone.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> Sorry I can’t be of better help on this one, just can’t say
>> with 100% certainty.
Thank YOU. Not many people saw this video. It’s important to hear from anyone who says they did if there’s any chance of finding out how it fits into the puzzle.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> Thanks for your continued efforts, maybe we can piece enough
>> together to finally eat this piece of the elephant, then
>> move on to the next bite.
Yep. One bite at a time. Chew it up… swallow or spit… and then move on.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> Still curious about the “loop” fire perimeter around the
>> Shrine area ( thanks for location clarification )
Not sure if you ever saw the following article… but it has a LOT of detail ( and LOTS of photos ) of how the fire actually came into the Shrine of St. Joseph…
USA Today
Article Title: Yarnell shrine scarred by wildfire but still standing
Published: 3:00 a.m. ET April 20, 2014
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/20/yarnell-shrine-wildfire-still-standing/7923327/
This is actually an even better article about what happened at the Shrine of St. Joseph.
It has BEFORE and AFTER photographs…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: In Yarnell fire’s path, a shrine is scarred but still standing
Images of the Shrine of St. Joseph of the Mountains before and after the Yarnell Hill Fire.
By: Richard Ruelas, The Arizona Republic
Published: 11:02 p.m. MT April 19, 2014
Updated: 11:39 p.m. MT April 19, 2014
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/2014/04/20/yarnell-wildfire-shrine-scarred/7933107/
NOTE: The ‘BEFORE’ photos in the article above were actually taken on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, and they show the fireline coming into the Youth Camp area.
WTKTT,
Once again its been some time since seeing the video. I don’t recall seeing any structures, wind was not excessive and it was still light – not smoked out darkness. Again, sorry I cant provide more but I really don’t remember that much detail.
In regard to “independent action” from resources it happens often. Especially during the initial attack phase of firefighting. However, once a team is in place “backfiring” operations have to be approved from Operations. Smaller scale firing (for structure protection, etc.)should be communicated with the next level of supervision, such as TFLD, Division, etc.. With that said it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. In this situation, it could have been done in face to face communication or via cell phone. Maybe one of those statements like ” just do what you need to do to protect structures”. Kind of leaves things wide open.
At some point these small scale firing operations become large scale unless someone is suppressing them once they have hit a certain point. Hopefully that makes sense.
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 9, 2019 at 11:35 am
>> Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> Once again its been some time since seeing the video.
>> I don’t recall seeing any structures, wind was not
>> excessive and it was still light – not smoked out darkness.
>> Again, sorry I cant provide more but I really don’t
>> remember that much detail.
Thank you… all of that matters.
And thanks for picking up on ‘smoked out darkness’ versus ‘civil twilight darkness’.
I know you know what ‘smoked out darkness’ looks like… and if you don’t recall seeing that… that matters with regards to nailing down WHEN this video might have been filmed.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> In regard to “independent action” from resources it
>> happens often. Especially during the initial attack
>> phase of firefighting. However, once a team is in
>> place “backfiring” operations have to be approved
>> from Operations. Smaller scale firing (for structure
>> protection, etc.) should be communicated
>> with the next level of supervision, such as TFLD,
>> Division, etc..
>>
>> With that said it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
>>
>> In this situation, it could have been done in face to face
>> communication or via cell phone. Maybe one of
>> those statements like ” just do what you need to do
>> to protect structures”. Kind of leaves things wide open.
Again… thank you. All important information.
The 3 engine crews that were ( as of now, anyway ) known to be working back there in the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp area ( Peeples Valley, Sun City 103 and CYFD 59 ) were ALL working under the direct supervision of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel, who was under SPGS1 Gary Cordes direct supervision.
Gary Cordes was ‘staged’ to the north, on the side of Highway 89, during the 4:00 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe… but TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel was RIGHT THERE, physically present in the Youth Camp area, in that same timeframe.
So whatever ‘approval’ any of those Engine Crews needed to try and protect the structures at the Youth Camp itself and/or the multiple structures on the WALTRAUD property… they might have received that ( as you suggest ) with ‘face to face communication’ with their own TFLD(t) right there on-site.
It still actually remains a mystery what one of those engine crews was REALLY doing there in the Youth Camp area.
I’m talking about Central Yavapai Engine 59, with crew boss Charlie Reyes.
Darby Starr’s Sun City Engie 103 crew was the lead crew for putting in the ‘saw line’ from where the dozer stopped pushing ground and on over to the ‘Rock Pile’ that was to be the termination point for the main dozer line.
Peeples Valley FFs Don Smith and Jacob Moder were helping them ( Starr’s crew ), apparently just as ‘swampers’.
Peeples Valley FF Matt Keehner was up on the north ridge as a ‘lookput’ for Starr’s saw-team, and Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon was staged at the Youth Camp with the 2 Peeples Valley FD vehicles ( Tender T-64 and Brush Truck E-54 ).
Matt Keehner came down from his lookout spot up on that “Rock Pile” just shortly after Byron Kimball’s 3:30 PM weather alert about the approaching storms… but Keehner then just ‘staged’ near the PFVD vehicles along with Brandon until they both drove the PVFD trucks out to the Shrine parking lot.
But it still remains unclear what that THIRD crew ( Charlie Reyes and CYFD E-59 ) were actually DOING there in the Youth Camp.
As it became obvious the work was not going to be completed and the main dozer line was NOT going to be burned-off that afternoon… it remains possible that Charlie Reyes got permission from TFLD(t) Esquibel to just do whatever they thought might help protect those structures in ( and near ) the Youth Camp.
But then, when Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown arrived in that area in their Polaris Ranger UTV… there may have been a “WTF are you DOING!” moment… which then accounts for what Brown said to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell about “idiots” trying to “burn THEMSELVES out”.
CYFD Engine 59 Boss Charlie Reyes was never interviewed by anyone ( that we know of ).
Neither the SAI team… nor the ADOSH investigators.
He has always bee ‘under the wire’ on this, and it’s not known what he and his crew were really doing that day ( all day )… or what any of them might have heard ( in-person or over the radio ) or seen that day.
The ONLY time his name ever ‘surfaces’ in any of the testimony is when Gary Cordes told the ADOSH investigators, in his interview, that Charlie Reyes was the one who told him that Granite Mountain had been ‘cut off’ trying to reach the Boulder Springs Ranch and had to ‘deploy’.
That’s when Cordes also said his initial reaction to this news from Reyes was “BULLSHIT! They had PLENTY of time to get there”., proving without a doubt that SPGS1 Gary Cordes always knew exactly what GM was doing and that they HAD left the black that afternoon.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> At some point these small scale firing operations
>> become large scale unless someone is suppressing
>> them once they have hit a certain point.
>> Hopefully that makes sense.
Makes perfect sense. Thanks again.
There remains the possibility that at the time one of those engine crews might have been laying fire down to try and save structures in the Youth Camp area… it was just a last-dtich effort AS they were evacuating… and they really didn’t care about suppressing them once lit. Either they were going to help save structures as the main fire hit the area… or not.
Such a ‘Hail Mary’ attempt in the Shrine area would explain the video, perhaps, and would certainly explain Captain Trueheart Brown’s statement about “idiots” nearly “burning THEMSELVES out”… but it would also then mean that whatever these guys were doing as they were rushing out of the Shrine area certainly had no impact on anything that happened way over in the box canyon.
Followup…
Regarding whether SPGS1 Gary Cordes was in the habit of giving his Crews the freedom to just “use their own judgement” for structure/point protection tactics… there is actually PROOF of that in the Aaron Hulburd video recordings.
After the deployment, at around 4:51 PM, Hulburd recorded a conversation between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and a Type 2 Crew that was just then arriving in Yarnell.
Cordes tells that Crew Boss to continue with point protection on the north end of Yarnell and to just “Use his own judgement”.
That conversation, as recorded in Hulburds’s M2U00266R, video, was as follows…
————————————————————–
+3:44 ( 1651:13 / 4:51:13 PM )
(Structure Group Three): Structure group one, structure group three, on your TAC.
+3:50 ( 1651:19 / 4:51:19 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): TONE. Three, one, go ahead.
+4:02 ( 1651:31 / 4:51:31 PM )
(Structure Group Three): Yea… I have a type two crew here. We just pulled into Yarnell. Where do ya need us at?
+4:08 ( 1651:37 / 4:51:37 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): You can stage at the small… right there… right on the north side by the mini-storage… and why don’t you just take the north end a town. I’m down here on the south end.
+4:20 ( 1651:49 / 4:51:49 PM )
(Structure Group Three): Copy that. You want us to go back in the subdivision here… or just stage along the road?
+4:25 ( 1651:54 / 4:51:54 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): It’s real dicey in the subdivision. Kinda use your judgement… uh… we’re just doin’ point protection… you know… bump and roll on it.
————————————————————–
So it may very well be that all the Crews working under Cordis and Esquibel that day didn’t feel like they needed to check with either one of them when it came to laying some fire down in the name of ‘point/structure’ protection tactics.
They may have ALL been given permission to just “Use their own judgement”.
I was following your train of thought until you said this:
“… but it would also then mean that whatever these guys were doing as they were rushing out of the Shrine area certainly had no impact on anything that happened way over in the box canyon.”
Can you restate this thought for me? Thanks.
If putting some fire on the ground as a last-ditch effort to protect structures in the Youth Camp area happened as they were evacuating that area… then that would have been way too late ( timewise ) for that ‘fire on the ground’ to have had anything to do with how the GM Hotshots got killed.
They would have been making that ‘last-ditch’ effort circa 4:25 to 4:30 PM… as they were ‘pulling out’.
Byron Kimball took a photo from Highway 89 at 4:29 PM which shows the ‘middle bowl’ fireline already about to arrive at the mouth of the box canyon.
Ok. I understand that. You’re just referring to possible fires set as they were getting out of the area not necessarily fires that may have been set at earlier times in the afternoon. Thanks
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 9, 2019 at 6:02 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Ok. I understand that. You’re just
>> referring to possible fires set as
>> they were getting out of the area
>> not necessarily fires that may have
>> been set at earlier times in the
>> afternoon. Thanks
Yes. But don’t forget the ‘conundrum’ that we are still trying to work thru on this.
It can already be proven ( via other non-deleted photos and videos ) that if they made any moves to start fires in the Youth Camp area, for any reason, then they could not possible have even started doing that before about 4:20 PM, when the first ( strong ) wind gusts suddenly hit the Youth Camp area.
As long as anyone who saw the video claims the wind was ‘blowing the trees’… then 4:22 PM is still about the earliest possible time that video could have been filmed in that area.
My recollection of the video was not in high winds. It wasn’t “whipping” at all and it was not dark either. I believe it was earlier in the afternoon before the weather dramatically began its change. Low fuels: shrubs & grass, no timber.
I don’t think your assumption is correct on that at this juncture. There simply is not enough information available to make that leap.
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 9, 2019 at 8:00 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> My recollection of the video was
>> not in high winds. It wasn’t “whipping”
>> at all and it was not dark either. I
>> believe it was earlier in the afternoon
>> before the weather dramatically
>> began its change.
>> Low fuels: shrubs & grass, no timber.
>>
>> I don’t think your assumption is
>> correct on that at this juncture.
Okay… then let’s ‘assume’, for a moment, that you really did see the same video that Sonny says he saw.
Now let’s forget, for a moment, that you are totally contradicting what HE says he is SURE he saw in that ( same ) video.
What TIME would YOU assign, as a guesstimate?
Keep in mind, however, the parameters of this conundrum.
The farther back you go in time from the 4:20 PM timeframe… the more existing ( non-deleted ) evidence there is that there was no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ ever ’emanating’ from the Shrine Road Youth Camp area.
That includes stuff like…
1. All the photos and videos the Blue Ridge Hotshots themselves took of the Youth Camp area as they were all getting back in their vehicles there at the Youth Camp.
2. All the photos that BR Hotshot Cory Ball took of the BR Hotoshots actually still WORKING out there on the dozer line, just a few hundred yards from where their vehicles were already parked at the Youth Camp. There is no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ ’emanating from either the Youth Camp area, OR anywhere on either side of the dozer line they are still actively ‘prepping’.
3. Christopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos ( may he rest in peace ) taken from a perfect vantage point out on the west ridge and looking straight back at the Youth Camp / dozer line.
Etc…. etc…
The earlier in the afternoon we get… the MORE evidence there is to contend with and have to ‘balance’ into any particular narrative.
It is ( as I said ) a ‘conundrum’.
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> There simply is not enough
>> information available to make
>> that leap.
So WHEN do YOU think the video was filmed?
Are you thinking that some fire might have been laid down there… and then it went OUT?… to the point where it just doesn’t show up in lots of other ( existing, non-deleted ) photos and videos?
I’m not “totally contradicting” what Sonny claims to have seen in the youtube video. I’m like Norb, I focus on what I’m accustomed to seeing – wildland firefighters doing wildland firefighting things…like drip torches, number of personnel, the fuel break they’re burning off of, the fuels, the weather etc. There very well may have been an old block foundation in there but my brain wouldn’t concentrate on that.
The video that Sonny saw may not necessarily been the same one I saw. When things are happening, firefighters tend to break out the cell phone cameras – combination municipal/wildland folks do it more. Especially new people. I don’t take a lot anymore because, well, how many hundreds of pictures of fire do I need? But newer folks sure do. (especially aircraft ops) It’s probable more than one video was taken of “some action.” So we don’t really need to “assume” of “set aside for now” that Sonny and I are talking about the same exact video.
MY time estimate is certainly before everything went to shit because the sun was shining and it was not dark. The wind was not “whipping” is was low to moderate. The fuels were shrubs and grasses – no timber. (stated for the 3rd time now)So my estimate is some time well before the dramatic change in weather and associated burning intensity.
No, the fire didn’t go out. It changed behavior based on fuels, weather, and topographic influence.
I hear what you’re saying on the available evidence, I really do. I simply believe everything is not available to us at this time for final vetting of the scenario.
What I need is this:
A “simulated flyover” of the area of the Shrine and Youth camp travelling WSW toward and through the BSR, deployment zone, and ending on the saddle where the crew dropped in. I personally can take the fire progression map provided by the SAIR and crumple it up & file it into the round cabinet. I need before and after satellite images of the area to compare fuels and their burn intensities. I need a flyover showing topography of the entire area in a 3 dimensional rendition.
I NEEDED to interview everyone on the fire in person. I also NEEDED to walk the entire area within days of the incident in order to evaluate the physical evidence on the ground myself. But that was not available to me at the time so I’m working on this.
And I agree with Norb, I’m seeing things that just don’t seem right around the Shrine.
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 10, 2019 at 3:06 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> What I need is this:
>>
>> ( snip )
Looks like we’ve reached the column limit down here so see a continuation of this coversation up above as a new parent-level comment…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476293
That new post ( above ) has a link to everything you just requested.
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 8, 2019 at 12:21 pm
>> Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> Still curious about the “loop” fire perimeter around the Shrine
>> area (thanks for location clarification)
Below is a link to a video that makes it all clear.
It’s a CROSSFADE video between the SAIT’s actual ( original ) Fire progression map, with a focus on the Shrine Road area and that strange ‘loop’ they had in the fireline there.
It CROSSFADES from the SAIT map into an actual satellite view, showing that their little ‘loop’ only encompassed the Shrine of St. Joseph area, and NOT the Youth Camp further to the west.
It also contains 2 aerial images taken immediately after the fire and showing the damage to the Shrine Road area. The aerial images are ‘annotated’ to show the exact location of the Shrine Road parking lot.
What’s interesting about the aerial photographs is that it shows the SAIT didn’t even really get their own ‘fireline’ right. Yes… the Shrine of St. Joseph was partially spared… but the aerial photographs show that the fire went much further EAST on Shrine road than even their fire progression map indicated.
Here’s a direct link to that ‘crossfade’ video ( also with aerial photos )…
https://youtu.be/s4xUKhTT5cA
WTKTT-Yes the wording could not but mean they were burning themselves out in a burn out–Otherwise he would have said something on the order of making sure they don’t get themselves burned up. Subtle difference but burning themselves out means they were doing some burning. It just adds to the evidence of the burn out in that area. However, the timing is the crucial thing to determine if it really had anything to do with trapping the GMHS. It is imperative to wait on more evidence to judge whether it did or not –yet with those high winds factored in and the idea that a burn out was preformed in there, it is certainly possible and should be addressed. A tribute to your ability to see the pertinent fine details.
I know some of you love the retardant–it makes the plants grow like crazy so Yarnell will have a really nice wild fire down the line–we will see how that one is managed somewhere in the future. Remember the Alamo–Remember the Yarnell Wild Land Fire Fight–Grab your Pulaski and make boot tracks for Yarnell. So I hope you wild fire men don’t quit for Yarnell’s sake. They will be even bigger guinea pigs the next fire–But we will see how many lives are lost next time around from the after effects of the retardant.
So here i go again about that retardant. Two things–It costs 2.50 -3.50 a gallon by my sources. So on the low end 500,000 gallons set the government via taxpayers a million and a quarter for the Yarnell Fire. Was the total overall cost at 7 million? I do know the cost is not cheap fighting these fires.
What good did it do at Yarnell. I did stop Chief Ben Palms back burn during the Tenderfoot fire–but what about the windy fire of 2012? That fire went though those drops like water through a sieve. Ha, when Joy and I watched a drop early the morning of demise, it was from a small plane and so high up it scattered thin and later we learn it was in the wrong area anyway. That should not have mattered since it did no good except to upset Marsh as we were told.
I doubt the use of retardant and its benefits and I have seen some wild fire superiors on line saying it is more a ploy to make the public happy. They enjoy seeing the orange and red drops and makes them think that these fires are really being retarded. That particular region manager said the drops were only of much use in sparse vegetation. Good Lord I can imagine the drops in that last California fire that killed so many citizens. So are these drops really doing that much. I wish they could have hit the GMHS with a drop but even then after what I hear, I doubt it would have sufficed to save them in that dense manzanita with those extreme wind conditions. Those flames were just too much and the winds fanned them–as one fire fighter said you might as well jump into a flaming chimney as to get in a canyon with a fire coming at you add 40 mph gusts and 30 mph steady.
Wtk.
Could you take one of Rory Collins aerial photos from late in the day 6/30 that shows the shrine area, sesame Street area, etc and add some labels as to where important locations are.
Like where blue ridge met up with Bucky, where the burnout operation supposedly occurred.
It would be helpful to me, and from reading comments it could help others too.
Thanks as always
Will do. Standby.
Reply to calvin post on January 9, 2019 at 4:02 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Wtk.
>> Could you take one of Rory Collins aerial photos from late in the
>> day 6/30 that shows the shrine area, sesame Street area, etc and
>> add some labels as to where important locations are.
Done.
New ‘crossfade’ video is here…
https://youtu.be/BGyNWBVSaME
Video Description:
————————————————————————————–
A crossfade in/out of Air Attack Rory Collins’ photo named ‘LookingSE.jpg’ which he took at 2:41:48 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 while flying over the Yarnell Hill fire. The last half of the video is a ‘flyaround’ of the entire Yarnell area, including a closeup look at the Shrine Road / Youth Camp area. The yellow line on the ground in the video is the ‘dozer line’ that was pushed on the old road that connected the Shrine area and the Sesame Street area.
————————————————————————————–
The ‘later’ afternoon photos taken by Rory Collins ( circe 3:40 PM ) were all shot looking south towards Yarnell while he was circling over the Peeples Valley area, so none of those are good ones to use to show the ‘Shrine area’ down there in Yarnell.
I used that photo of his named ‘LookingSE.jpg’, which provides a pretty good aerial view of the Shrine / Harper Canyon area.
That also happens to be the Rory Collins photo that you discovered was actually showing the Granite Mountain command vehicles ( Supt. and Chase trucks ) in the lower right corner, where they had been parked at the top of the Sesame clearing area right where the two-track out
to the old grader starts.
Just for reference… here is that post you made when you first discovered the GM vehicles in that ‘LookingSE.jpg’ photo…
————————————————————————————–
On January 8, 2015 at 5:07 am, calvin said…
I have a question concerning a Rory Collins photo that is numbered 45 of 49 and is titled LookingSE.jpg. There appears to be two trucks in the lower right corner of the image. There also appears to be a freshly cleared area around those two trucks. Are those the GM Supt and chase trucks?
—————————————————————————————
You were, of course, correct. Those ARE the GM ‘command vehicles’ seen parked there in the lower right corner of Collins’ aerial photo, complete with that ‘ring’ that Gary Cordes told ADOSH he had the dozer opertor push around the vehicles in case the fire showed up there.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> ( Locations )… Like where blue ridge met up with Bucky,
Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ‘met up’ with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd at 4:37 PM in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot.
Frisby and Brown had just finished ‘chasing’ all of the other firefoghters out of the Youth Camp area and were now arriving at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot themselves, in their Polaris Ranger UTV.
That’s when ( and where ) Trueheart Brown said ( to Yowell ), in response to his “How ya doin’, guy!” greeting…
“Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!
That Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot location is clearly shown in the new video.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> …where the burnout operation supposedly occurred.
In the video… that location ( at 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine road ends ) is marked with a RED balloon with the letter ‘W’ on it.
The ‘W’ stands for “The Waltraud Property”, which is where those rock walls / foundations are located and where the multiple structures were before we SEE them burning down circa 5:30 PM in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos.
WTKTT,
Can you provide the distance between the SW edge of the Shrine parking lot and the deployment site?
Refresh my memory on a link (or actual true data) to the RAWS weather observations for 6/30/13 between 1300 & 1530 hrs. What were the intervals in time on this data?
An azimuth from the shrine to the BSR?
Depending on some additional analysis and hopefully a few more details from you, I’m close to seeing something obvious.
A reliably accurate aerial photo of the area you just made a video of both before and after (both being very close to 6/30/13) would be beneficial for what I need to look for.
Thanks!
What personnel were working in the dozer line corridor between Shrine and Sesame?
Only the dozer ( Operator Paul Morin ),
the HEQB/DOZB with him ( BR Hotshot Cory Ball )
and the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
They ( the BR Hotshots ) started ‘prepping’ that dozer line at 3:30 PM.
Here is a photo of them as they were first ‘walking out’ onto the dozer line…
At exactly 3:30:02 PM, HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball took the following photograph ( with his network-connected and time-correct iPhone 4S ) of the same dozer still there on that dozer line between the Sesame and Shrine area(s)…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAD72skvle6Io8jtO_DmLQn7a/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Ball?dl=0&preview=IMG_1883.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
In that photo, taken looking northeast, the dozer is ‘blade up’ and just driving southwest, passing the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were about to start working there on the dozer line.
Dozer operator Paul Morin was now possibly just heading back to where the dozer loboy trailer was staged down in Glen Ilah where the pavement of Lakewood and Manzanita ends.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots only worked that line for about 30 minutes before being told ( by Brian Frisby ) to ‘pick it up’ and haul ass over to the BR Carriers parked over at the Shrine Youth Camp.
One sawyer for BR said in his Unit Log that he only had time to use 1 tank of gas before being told to evacuate off the line.
Did GM’s lookout attempt to burnout around himself by the old grader while searching for a place to deploy his shelter? Was even 1 shred of fire put on the ground in this area? Please review the details concerning McDonough’s jam he found himself in while left to fend for himself. He was, after all, picked up by Brown and Frisby by chance and not by plan. What is McD’s actions that are known from the afternoon?
Reply to Woodsman post on January 11, 2019 at 8:53 am
>> Woodsman asked…
>>
>> Did GM’s lookout attempt to burnout around
>> himself by the old grader while searching for
>> a place to deploy his shelter?
No.
>> Woodsman also asked…
>>
>> Was even 1 shred of fire put on the ground in this area?
No.
All of the photographs taken by the GM Hotshots themselves from that ‘final rest spot’ up on the Weaver ridge ( and looking back towards Yarnell ) prove that.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Please review the details concerning McDonough’s
>> jam he found himself in while left to fend for himself.
I did. He never put any fire on the ground. No way.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> He was, after all, picked up by Brown and
>> Frisby by chance and not by plan.
Brian Frisby was alone in the BR Polaris Range UTV when he ( in Frisby’s own words ) ‘stumbled across’ Brendan by the old-grader.
Brown had gotten out of the Ranger to let Frisby go up and meet with Eric Marsh alone… and Brown was, at the moment Frisby ‘stumbled across’ McDonough… walking along on the dozer line and supervising things there.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> What is McD’s actions that are known from the afternoon?
Spinning the weather, taking photographs and videos.
McDonough shot some of the scariest known photos and videos of that ‘near collision’ between the VLAT and the Skycrane helicopter.
He would occasionally ‘check in’ over the GM Crew-Net with Steed and Marsh… but even in his own ADOSH interviews he said he pretty much stopped doing that after a while because every time he tried to tell them something… they would say they could SEE it for themselves and didn’t need him to tell them about it.
It was a worthless assignment… and it is still possible they just sent McDonough down there because he still wasn’t feeling well and just couldn’t keep up with everyone else that day.
OR… he had been driving the rest of them crazy and they just wanted to relocate him and be rid of him for the day.
Who exactly was working at the BSR on the afternoon of 6/30/13? I know that they had a portable water tank setup there. What else was going on there?
Reply to Woodsman post on January 11, 2019 at 8:56 am
>> Woodsman asked…
>>
>> Who exactly was working at the BSR on the afternoon
>> of 6/30/13?
As far as we know… NO ONE.
According to the front-gate security footage… some engines came and went… but none of them were ever ‘assigned’ to be working there.
Lee and DJ Helm were not there ( at home ) in the morning, but they WERE there in the afternoon and DURING the burnover… and they have both testified on multiple occasions that they never, EVER saw ANY fireman that day.
Not once. Zero. Zip. Nada.
The first ‘fireman’ that DJ Helm ever saw that day was after the burnover, when Jason Clawson scared the shit out of her and came walking up to her after having been out at the deployment site.
Jason Clawson was the one who informed her that there were now 19 dead bodies just 600 yards west of their property.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I know that they had a portable water tank setup there.
That got set up ( and filled with water ) the night before.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> What else was going on there?
Not much. See above. Lee and DJ Helm NEVER saw ANYONE in the hours leading up to ( and during ) the burnover.
Correction for above…
I said…
>> Lee and DJ Helm were not there ( at home ) in
>> the morning, but they WERE there in the
>> afternoon and DURING the burnover…
Lee and DJ Helm WERE actually there, at home, on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013.
They left at some point in the late morning to go up to Peeples Valley to see what the fire was actually doing.
They left Peeples Valley around NOON, ran some errands in Yarnell, and then returned home ( to the Boulder Springs Ranch ) around 2:00 PM
They remained there, at home, from 2:00 PM onward through the eventual burnover.
They still say they never saw ANY fireman at their property that day, at any time they were home, until AFTER the burnover.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 11, 2019 at 8:29 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Can you provide the distance between the SW edge of the
>> Shrine parking lot and the deployment site?
2.40 kilometers
1.49 miles
2,624 yards
7,872 feet
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Refresh my memory on a link (or actual true data) to
>> the RAWS weather observations for 6/30/13 between
>> 1300 & 1530 hrs.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Weather conditions during the tragedy at Yarnell Hill
Published: July 4, 2013 – By Bill Gabbert
https://wildfiretoday.com/2013/07/04/weather-conditions-during-the-tragedy-at-yarnell-hill-and-where-do-we-go-from-here/
Just below the following paragraph in the article, there is
an actual IMAGE of the Stanton RAWS Weather Station ( 4 miles south of Yarnell Hill Fire ) Tablular Listing: June 29, 2013 – 18:01 through June 30, 2013 – 19:01 MST
———————————————————–
From 10 a.m. until 4 p.m. local time at the Stanton RAWS weather station four miles south of the fire, the wind was from the south-southwest or southwest, but between 4:01 p.m. and 5:01 p.m. it began blowing from the north-northeast at 22 to 26 mph gusting up to 43 mph — a 180-degree change in the wind direction.
———————————————————–
Stanton RAWS Weather Station ( 4 miles south of Yarnell Hill Fire )
Tablular Listing: June 29, 2013 – 18:01 through June 30, 2013 – 19:01 MST
( IMAGE containing data in column format ).
Column HEADINGS…
Time (MST), Temperature, Dew Point, Relative Humidity, Wind Speed (mph), Wind Gust (mph), Wind Direction, Quality check, Solar Radiation, Precipitation accumulated ( inches ).
————————————————————–
Here is a direct link to that ‘Stanton RAWS’ data image contained in that July 4, 2013 ‘Wildfire Today’ article…
https://i2.wp.com/wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Data-from-Stanton-weather-station-near-Yarnell-AZ-June-30-2013.jpg?w=498&ssl=1
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to 2-links-per-post limit )…
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> What were the intervals in time on this ( weather ) data?
One hour.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> An azimuth from the shrine to the BSR?
The exact GPS coordinates for the same SW edge of the Shrine parking lot’ used in the distance calculation above…
Decimal Latitude: 34.227189
Decimal Longitude: -112.752858
The exact GPS coordinates for the center of the roof of the main residence at the Boulder Springs Ranch…
Decimal Latitude: 34.218868
Decimal Longitude: -112.771080
Online GPS-To-Azimuth calculator…
https://www.omnicalculator.com/other/azimuth
Results…
Looking FROM the Shrine parking lot TOWARDS the BSR…
Distance: 1.1892 miles
Azimuth: 241.1 degrees
Looking FROM the BSR back TOWARDS the Shrine parking lot…
Distance: 1.1892 miles
Azimuth: 61.08 degrees
Fuckin’ A HAL 9000…you are on FIRE! I don’t have anything to constructive to add…I just wanted to point out how scary smart you are….again. Upgraded high speed microprocessor?
🤖
Reply to Gary Olson post on January 10, 2019 at 7:41 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Upgraded high speed microprocessor?
Perhaps.
Rumor has it that when I said something about not being able to survive a 12-gauge shotgun blast straight into the back at close range… some kind of upgrade was scheduled.
The reason I’m not sure it happened is because they say there was a video of it… but I haven’t seen it myself… and I’m just trying to find out details about it.
SOMETHING happened. I’m still just not sure, myself, what yet.
Oh…well,..if you think “something” happened, I’m going to “shut the fuck up”: because if something did happen, we need to know what it was, that’s fer damn sure.
Thanks, WTKTT for those details–whew a bunch of different Departments doing their thing in there so Trueheart’s words would be appropriate to a burning going on that would trap themselves or one of the other crews in there. It did not sound like the main fire coming at them but their own burning was on the dangerous side.
Reply to Charlie post on January 11, 2019 at 10:11 pm
>> Charile said…
>>
>> Thanks, WTKTT for those details–whew a bunch of different
>> Departments doing their thing in there so Trueheart’s words
>> would be appropriate to a burning going on that would trap
>> themselves or one of the other crews in there. It did not
>> sound like the main fire coming at them but their own
>> burning was on the dangerous side.
The ‘main fire’ WAS ‘coming at them’.
It was coming over the north ridge.of the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp area.
That’s why Blue Ridge Hotshots Frisby and Brown were actively
‘chasing’ those 3 crews OUT of the Shrine Youth Camp area.
——————————————————————————–
Peeples Valley Fire Department
1 Water Tender – T-64
1 Brush Truck – E-54
Four crewmen…
Jacob Moder, Ronald Smith, Bob Brandon and Matthew Keehner
Sun City Fire Department
1 Type 6 Engine – Sun City Engine 103 – LIC# G-264EF
Four crewman…
Darby Starr ( Engine Boss ), Coy Boggler, Jarret White and James Flint
Central Yavapai
1 Type 6 Engine – E-59 – LIC# G-682DV – Front Plate: CEY-P59
Four crewman…
Charlie Reyes ( Engine Boss ), Ryan Ferris, Steve Emery, Matt Mcfadden
——————————————————————————–
But it’s still hard to interpret what Trueheart Brown said to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell any other way than AS Brown and Frisby were ‘chasing them out’… they witnessed one ( or more ) of these crews trying to do some kind of ‘last-ditch-effort’ burnout, but doing it VERY badly…. to the point where they were more likely to “burn THEMSELVES out” rather than accomplish anything useful.
If that turns out to be all that really happened… it will remain unbelievable that we would only now be learning about it… but it still means that would definitely NOT have had anything to do with the eventual fate of the Granite Mountain Hotshots way over in the box canyon.
Don’t forget…
Even without any testimony about people putting any ‘fire’ on the ground in the Youth Camp area… there was still enough testimony and evidence about what a screwed up operation that was in ‘Youth Camp’ area alone that the The Arizona Division of Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) included this ‘possible entrapment’ situation in their ‘willful serious’ citations against Arizona Forestry.
The ‘willfull serious’ citations issued by ADOSH totaled $545,000 ( the maximum allowed by law ), and included FOUR ‘entrapment’ situations on June 30, 2013…
1. The near-fatal-entrapment of 30+ firefighters working for SPGS2 Darrell Willis up at the Double-Bar-A Ranch on Hays Ranch Road.
2. The near-fatal-entrapment of those 3 Engine crews working for SPGS1 Gary Cordes and TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel in the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp area.
3. The near-fatal-entrapment of Brendan McDonough out by the old-grader.
4. The actual fatal-entrapment of 19 Granite Mountain firefighters out in the box canyon.
It’s a shame that ADOSH ended up SETTLING with Arizona Forestry over these citations and fines.
If they had not… then there would have been a no-shit COURT ‘hearing/trial’… including calling witnesses UNDER OATH, and we would know so much more about what really happened with ALL of these ‘incidents’ at the Yarnell fire.
Reply to Charlie post on January 2, 2019 at 11:35 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Well Joy has interviewed two different fire people that were
>> in the Shrine Area including Prescott and Flagstaff firemen–so
>> it could be that the Peeples Valley Fire Department did not
>> do the burning because they were not qualified but it seems
>> to me that people in that Yarnell incident were doing a lot
>> of things they were not qualified at. I have no idea who they
>> were but two things I am absolutely certain of is that there
>> were men using drip torches in that video above the Shrine area
Understood.
All that remains, then, is to try and figure out what TIME ( on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ) that could have possibly been taking place.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> …and I am also certain that Chief lied through his teeth at
>> Peeples Valley concerning his crew being in the area when
>> he consented to an interview with Joy and I was present.
He must be quite the moron, then, if he was trying to deny he had a crew ( and 2 vehicles ) in the Shrine area that day… when that has ALWAYS been ‘public information’ and the details are contained in BOTH of the ‘official’ investigation reports.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> If the wind shift could be so bad by 3:45 that day to cause
>> the crews to evacuate the area …
No one was ‘evacuating’ the Shrine Youth Camp area at 3:45 PM.
That’s way too early.
It would be another 37 minutes before that even started to happen.
According to Esqubel’s own ‘Unit Log’ and ADOSH testimony…
TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel didn’t instruct his ‘Task Force 2’ crews working the Shrine Youth Camp area to even begin ‘evacuating’ that area until 4:22 PM, when the wind suddenly ‘picked up’ in the Youth Camp area ( in his own words ) “all of a sudden… from 0 to 45 mph” and ( also in his own words ) the visibility in that Shrine Youth Camp area dropped way down.
It would then take another 8-10 minutes for them all to start heading out of the Youth Camp area, and they all ended up passing the Shrine of St. Joseph ( as seen in the Hulburd videos ) in the 4:35 PM timeframe.
Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were the absolute LAST ones out of the Shrine Youth Camp area. They left there at 4:35 PM and then pulled up to the Shrine parking lot at exactly 4:37 PM… just 2 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call would hit the radio at 4:39 PM.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> …then that burn out certainly would have had time to trap the GMHS crew.
If the ‘wind was whipping the trees’ in that video shot 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends… then it really could not have been filmed any earlier than about 4:22 PM. That is ( apparently ) when that kind of ‘wind’ first started happening that day, in that exact area.
Do you recall what the general ‘light levels’ were in that video?
Was is getting all ‘dark’ and whatnot… or did it appear to be clear and/or even still some ‘sun’ shining?
WTKTT– No it was not getting dark during the video as I remember the light level was so the video was clearly visible. The time they evacuated I gathered from Woodsman’s posting of 15:45 but I was not clear on that time. The video must have been taken along about that time frame.
One thing after seeing how burnouts and back burns are decided, it would be obvious to me that it was a proper and needed procedure in that area. First at the time that would have been taking place the winds would have been blowing in the direction of Peeples Valley –NW. The area directly opposite the Shrine was a boulder mountain devoid of much vegetation. So a burnout or back burn, whatever term would be proper for what they were doing there, would clear that area with no danger to structures below the burn. However when the winds reversed to the SW, some of the Shrine and a few other structures there were all that were affected. The burn did protect Yarnell Proper but when it went out of the canyon it challenged Glen Isla and especially the funnel that took the winds up the death canyon and near Helms Ranch. Helms Ranch was by no means unaffected even with the defensible space they had made two weeks before the fire. The walls were scorched and certain old vehicles about the place had tires burned off with burn damage similar to what we saw at the old Grader. By the way, not only did the grader have its tires burned away but even the iron plate on the floorboards had turned blue due to the heat. Some old carnation cream cans had the lead melted out of the center-Joy took photos of those cans–oddly in the old days lead was used to seal the center of those cans. But it went to show that Donut was headed there to the grader since it had maybe 50 ft or so clear around it to make it what he thought would be a safe place to deploy. That showed how little those wild land fire fighters understood the heat release capacity of manzanita–something Wooten and Morrison in their paper said equaled the energy release of an atomic bomb Hiroshima size ever 15 minutes. Their review of the fire mentioned what I saw in action that day–any attempt of even an army to delay that fire would have been futile and as we saw the Jumbo Jet loads of retardant did nothing to delay the fire that day. Well they did on top of the mountain in sparse vegetation where it would have burned itself out anyway as it tried to go down the other side of the Weavers.
So yes, I believe the experienced wild land fire fighters would agree that it would have been proper procedure to make a back burn in that Shrine Area. But it seems that just as the bosses Marsh and Steed did not know the potential of energy release they were attempting to outrun through the thickest of fuel they could be in, they also did not seem to understand that the wind would change despite them and us looking at the Thunderstorms to the NE in the higher elevations of Prescott and despite them receiving meteorological reports in regular and short intervals. They did not need the reports, they had visuals of the storm and with that and the fact you would be facing a “flaming front” releasing atom bomb energy you can see that their elite knowledge and fireman’s training had no effect on their common sense judgement. I saw it and perhaps my lack of training in that field saved my ass–shit who would want to endanger ones person by getting trapped in that entanglement of manzanita knowing that the winds would reverse at any moment? But those bossed did and not only that had the responsibility of their men at stake . I believe Marsh deserved to go it alone, but when he risked all those young lives needlessly then his actions spoke loudly as to his poor abilities as a wild land fire fire fighter. These of course are my own opinions and not the opinions of the elite wild land fire fighter commanders that managed that fire at Yarnell in June of 2013. If you let me hand out awards, I would give those bosses a failure of the century at wild land fire fighting award. But of course they do not want to accept such an award–You can paint over shit but the shit is still there and will even mix into the clean paint.
Well I have a nice coating of icy snow out side. but already melting. Fortunately I am able to type well enough and keep my wood stoves burning (I have two for this long trailer but only burn one at night usually.) Well I do know how tough it would be to be a wild land fire fighter–sleeping out as they did in the rough and cutting and digging line while facing fires. I have experienced a lot of that myself–well the sleeping out on the ground part at least. I like the easier job of underground mining and never minded that work so I can understand if you have that kind of job how you could get attached to it. Maybe those young firemen and especially the wild land fire fighter bosses that are coming up will take notice of this incident if it ever comes public—the young wild land firefighter’s biggest danger would be his boss that if he has no business in that business can and will get you killed–unless you are savvy enough to protect your own life. Hard to do when you have a military type organization with bosses acting like they are secret elite men with no chance of error and higher bosses that willingly transform a bad and failed operation into a heroic effort worthy of awards.
Yes WTKTT–Joy has evidence about the Shrine incident but good reason at this time not to report that or indicate where she obtained the testimonies. I am not privy to the information but if Joy says it is there then I can count on her integrity.
Now I had remembered some of the wisdom of Gary Olson and his descriptions of the Amanda behavior. Of course he is much more familiar with that that I would be. My experience was cursory –that encounter I had by being in court when she made false accusations against Joy Collura. You could see that the Judge was in her favor only because of the grieving widow front and the good old camaraderie among the Prescott set. It brings to mind her status as Valedictorian of her graduating class –something my sister Betty also was in her high school graduating class–or perhaps it was Salutatorian of her Lordsburg Graduating Class. Either way it produces a person with very high self esteem–sometimes so high it is very hard for others to live up to their expectations. I see in the movie that Amanda was a pusher and had plenty of suggestions to get Eric to where he would form the GMHS group and get them certified.
I know in my sisters case she became the head secretary in the very secret works at Los Alamos, NM involved in the government nuclear work. She actually hid me in the closet when a Physicist came to visit. I do not know why exactly (I was 19 at the time)–maybe because I was a ragged looking young cowboy and she did not want to be embarrassed by my presence in front of such an elite person? Well she finally divorced her husband Ted–(he was superintendent of roads there and I always liked him–he wasn’t a stuffed shirt at all.) But I think he could never meet her high expectations. I am still a country hick maybe near red neck status–I can use an outdoor shitter and still talk to any bat hided person without worry that he will look too far down on my status and if he does that is his problem, not mine. But what I could see with Amanda and her exposition in the movie, Eric was about to loose her and if you add that into the brew, he had turmoil in more than one direction. Whew he may have had a tough time fulfilling her expectations and his own with it. Some women have been known to drive their men totally insane.
Well when we met him on the mountain he certainly seemed nice enough but to me almost detached from the world. He certainly kept his distance from the men but then I am not familiar with Hot Shot procedures The men as we passed them had a dreadful look–Joy has mentioned that I said they looked like they were on their death march as I passed them. Because of my poor hearing, I might have spoken louder than I should have. But they certainly were not fresh and Marsh did look and go like a determined person.
We had heard that he had been off for some time and there was something about a bicycle accident he had suffered.. As it stands, it should have been and is important to have investigated the state of mind situation of Marsh at the time and immediately before the deaths of his crew and his suicide run to be with them.
Gary has given some very insightful information on much of that situation. But I think there is plenty more that can be revealed. I know Joy in her FOIA from the Prescott Fire Department uncovered some very pertinent information about Marsh but by law could not report anything she learned. The type FOIA she obtained was such that lawfully she could not reveal those Marsh reports about behavior and demeanor.
So the story goes on and rightfully so because only the surface has been scratched so far–much more to be revealed even at this late hour in the process.
Oh my someone is saying–can’t you IM folks just go away and leave it alone. Just accept what has been said –Marsh and Steed were heroes doing what Willis said they had to do–Protect those structures and go though those manzanita and cactus where no ordinary citizen could go. Well not many of the old timers in wild land fire fighting have bought the story line put out–they are not happy with the bull crap and there are a few good citizens that support their views.
We continue to seek more truth about the debacle and there are plenty truths that are still under wraps.
It came to mind that some of the wild land fire fighters and others with information about the Yarnell Debacle would like to share but anonymously. If there is information you have about the fire it would be a good thing to get hold of Joy and her website. However, one of the commanders that had my phone number wanted to talk to me–gave me some tips. If there is anything you want posted without your name attached or you do not want your email on this site for reasons I could understand–retribution possibilities, feel free to email me at [email protected]. If you want to talk to me personally I will give you my phone number if I see you are legitimate.
There is so much information out there and I have been with Joy on occasions where people did want to share but were in fear of having their identity exposed. Well some were threatened with their careers and no one want their career jeopardized. So be assured this old fellow will protect that and if you want to use a fictitious handle, fine with me. The more information that is verifiable, the better–but even if it is not, it is worth evaluating or thinking about.
We are in this for the long run and anything that helps edge us toward the facts will help and eventually do some good to the folks that have suffered for this tragic work.
My son received a million for his loss of arm–these folks barely got enough to buy a decent vehicle for their loss of their loved ones–a shame in itself. I believe all that should be reviewed because of false information that has been promoted to the general public. The old wild land fire fighters are not fooled and want the truth because it will help and save the new ones following their paths. They are all heroes doing good works for people and they deserve safe improved wild fire fighting that comes from knowing the truth about how these failed operations happened and how to change that.
I farther feel the men are underpaid and pay at least for the grunt should at least be doubled with the billions that the government has laid aside. This is risky business and as an underground miner I was making 26 per hour back in the 70’s. That is now 49 years ago–miners now make upwards of $50 per hour. That is risky business also–I know from suffering a mine cave in myself–but fortunately and even though it put me out of the contract mining business, I was not burned to death because some faulty boss caused my death.. So to me $15 an hour is a pittance for the risk you fellows take and that settlement given people that lost their loved ones was a shame to the FS and the State of Arizona.
I bid you good work and good fortune in the work you love. I did love mining and the rewards of doing good work there. I did not mind logging either or any of the jobs in life I have had the fortune to do. Cowboy was never good pay–back in the 60’s it was 5 a day and meals and having to work sun up to sun down–even to do dishes as a young cowboy. You got kicked out of the bunk house for shooting rats off the rafters. Well, but they did not mind the dead rats, just the holes in the old tin roof. 22’s make small holes. But even that has improved greatly these days. We are a rich country–take care of our first responders and our heroes fighting the dangerous wild fires.
REPLY IN CAPS:
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
JANUARY 3, 2019 AT 1:23 AM
Reply to Charlie post on January 2, 2019 at 11:35 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Well Joy has interviewed two different fire people
TO BE FACTUAL “TWO” SHOULD BE “TOO MANY”…AND I AM TRYING TO FACT CHECK AND DO ALL MY AREA PROPERLY BEFORE I PRESENT THAT AREA.
SOME WILL NOT LIKE ME ADDRESSING THEM TO THE WORLD TO THE POINT IT WILL CAUSE SOME REACTIONS
.
I HAVE TO ENSURE I NOTIFIED THEM FIRST HAND BEFORE I PROCEED THERE,.
that were
>> in the Shrine Area including Prescott and Flagstaff firemen–so
>> it could be that the Peeples Valley Fire Department did not
>> do the burning because they were not qualified but it seems
>> to me that people in that Yarnell incident were doing a lot
>> of things they were not qualified at. I have no idea who they
>> were but two things I am absolutely certain of is that there
>> were men using drip torches in that video above the Shrine area
THE VIDEO WAS WITH A ROCK WALL…THE BEST DESCRIPTION I READ SO FAR WAS WOODSMAN WITH MUCH OF SONNY’S- THEY ARE SOUNDING TO ME LIKE SEPARATE VIDEOS SO I AM GOING TO ASK BOTH WOODSMAN AND SONNY- THE WIND SEEMS TO BE DIFFERENT BETWEEN YOU BOTH AND I AM GLAD I AM WORKING WITH SPECIALISTS IN METEOROLOGY AND ABOUT TO SEE THEM IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS IF I CAN GET LESS DEPLETED HERE….TRYING TO REST…
MY MEETING WITH THEM IS TO COLLABORATE MY DATA WITH THEIRS TO ENSURE THIS SPECIFIC AREAS ARE DETAILED AND DOCUMENTED…
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6MgYQhLVBq92QwaOYVW_ig/videos
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> …and I am also certain that Chief lied through his teeth at
>> Peeples Valley concerning his crew being in the area when
>> he consented to an interview with Joy and I was present.
He must be quite the moron, then, if he was trying to deny he had a crew ( and 2 vehicles ) in the Shrine area that day… when that has ALWAYS been ‘public information’ and the details are contained in BOTH of the ‘official’ investigation reports.
THE AUDIO IS HERE: OB THAT LINK ABOVE ON ONE OF THESE 2 AREAS-
Peeples Valley FD Chief Bob Heckman voicemails, phone conversations, and a meeting
177 views
4 months ago
7:00
Chief Bob Brandon Hangs Up On Eyewitness to Yarnell Hill Fire
154 views
4 months ago
Thanks Joy–Oh I knew you had proof of everything–Your had that little recorder I gave you–I have since bought another but still never figured the damn thing out. Same with a browning game camera that set me back 150–shit with my bat hides you would think I could do technology. Well when I went back to the University I was using a slide rule to finish up math classes–the students said whats that? They were already programming computers by then.
So I am not sure how the wind was blowing but it had to be west of the road since the trees were bending and by that time with that force it had already reversed. There is some question of time reversal. I felt it on the mountain–I think you did as well but I do not remember the exact time we topped the Weavers after I returned to where you were at the two track I wonder if at some point you remembered that I said one thing (besides having to live with a bad conscience and my worry about your safety) I told you well if I had not gone back the state would likely have charged me with murder. I had the experience that you did not have since much of my life had been spent outdoors living in tents, etc. and following my old prospector Dad.
So with all the cover up and so forth with the truth so diligently hidden by the powers that ran the show at Yarnell, I have come up with another tack. Part of it involves a Justice program I had been watching on TV. Englands most prolific murder was a man named Peter Suscliff. He was finally captured after 13 murders of prostitutes and college women over a long period of time. His modus operand was to use a ball peen hammer to knock them out then stab them in the neck and chest multiple times–50 or more. He was given a life sentence in 1981 and later found to be schizophrenic so that it was determined that his murder habit was incurable so a judge decided he would have his sentence added so there would be no chance of parole. Serial Killers are like Burglars and Child Molesters–very few if any are cured and upon release you see a high recidivism rate in all those types. One of my courses was abnormal psychology and one of my thesis involved recidivism–actually publish in a psychological journal at the time–so that long time research paper gave me at least some insight into human abnormal behavior.
Now Mr. Suscliff, the felon he was had also had also attempted to kill 7 other women so his tally would have been 2o had he been successful. He would have of course kept killing had he not been stopped by chance because an officer had seen him as suspicious and found that his license plate did not match his car. The presence of a ball peen hammer gave him away.
So we fast forward from 1981 when those serial murders were found out to 2013 when a mass murder incident happened–I believe mass murder and suicide involving 19 men and one attempted murder beside. I say this because there was not one man that had long time wild land fire fighting experience and walked the area on the two track above the death canyon that said he would have taken his crew down there. I say it because you and I were on that two track some time before they got to where you were, then descended into that death trap that even I as a non-fire fighter recognized was a death trap if we were to decend dow there. You see, with your knowledge of fire fighter training you know he broke every rule in the book. Marsh had to have even known where the fire was, its rate of advance and exactly when the 45 mph winds were to be arriving. With every rule broken, he had to cajole and order Jesse Steed into doing the unthinkable. Steed had to believe he might be able to beat the less than 50-50 chance he had of getting his men through that dense brush with winds about to fiercely change direction right at them. At any rate we have all the facts and I have come to believe that Mr. Marsh would be highly suspect of a mass murder suicide because he knew what he was doing and even set himself up to die with the men.
It would be interesting to run a psychological profile on Marsh–look at all his background, at what was going on with his superiors, and at the fact he may have been loosing his pride and joy–the crew he had so ardently worked to achieve as a recognized Hot Shot Crew. I do know there was some friction and apparently he was being worked out of the thing he had worked so hard at creating–the hybrid wild land fire fighting GMHS crew. Even Amanda’s take in the movie shows that intense desire he had to be that crew boss–to be recognized as the man of the year. When some people see the end of a position they so cherished, they go berserk. And what I saw and so many wild land fire fighters agree to was that you had to be berserk to have dropped off in that canyon. Many of them did not see the actual entanglement down there until they saw the photos Joy took on that very day and from almost the very spot they died.
One thing should be done and that is a thorough investigation into what caused the insane actions of Marsh and how Steed could have been overpowered by his rant.
I say as well that Marsh had left Donut in a place he was certain to be consumed by fire. Donut was as green as the manzanita he was surrounded by. Marsh left him there in the green with the fire changing and Marsh with his training had to know that Donut was in an absolute dead man situation. I could see that from the two track–Donut was no look out, he was on a knoll below the Weavers and where he was had no use whatsoever with the men already gone a canyon over and him just setting there waiting for the wind to reverse the fire and kill him. He escaped only because the Blue Ridge foreman had balls enough to risk his own life to save him. Brian Frisby, the man that saved Donut–did he get an award? He deserved it for saving last man of the crew that Marsh had positioned to die.
These are my own musings–to me they make good sense. Maybe the new year has brought me around to looking at things from different perspectives.
It is hard to get through the crap we were fed about the heroic efforts that were supposedly made to save Yarnell. That was bull crap–those wild land fire fighters know when to hold and they know when to fold. They know when the big dog eats you find a safe place and let it eat. Your job is just to watch–never think you are going to cut line around Yarnell with a Pulaski in a flaming front that is releasing energy that burns your pulaski and melts your chain saw in a wind that is laying 100 ft flames and tornadoes down near parallel to the surface fuel. And if you think I am dreaming these things up–maybe you have not talked to enough old wild land fire fighters that have been there for years and are in the know and have no agenda other than t
o make sure future young lives are saved. The truth will greatly improve the odds.
One thing about a Psychopathic personality is that they can present a beautiful veneer to cover what really lurks underneath. That is often why serial killers are so hard to find. Good examples are Ted Bundy and BTK –people that fit right in, likable and are able to gain trust before they unleash their real intentions. As far as mass murderers–sometimes physical defects but often there is an event that triggers their madness. Job problems has been one of the bigger factors in mass murder events but of course we have religion that can cause the mass murders as well. Look at Jim Jones and the Allah Akbar Arab terrorist sayers–all entangled in their religious ideas.
It might be a good idea to do some psychological screening when you put someone in charge of so many young lives. This might save some lives since psychological testing has advanced to a degree that unstable individuals can be identified and kept from positions where lives are at stake.
Here a Dr. Ted Putnam would be a good person to consult and work on situations concerning hiring practices and especially promotions to places certain individuals should never be allowed.
I will pound on the burn out thing a bit more. Being around and hiking with some of the finest men retired but long time wild fire managers and bosses, I have to believe that most if not all would agree that a burn out in the Shrine area would be almost a mandatory thing to do–most certainly if the wind would be away from the dwellings in that area. Well to begin with the wind was toward Peeples Valley so there in that Canyon it would be a safe thing to do. You had a boulder mountain with little vegetation to the opposite side of the Shrine and with winds toward Peeples Valley that mountain was between where the fire would go and the few dwellings on the East side of that boulder hill. Then since they knew meterological reports were going to change the direction to the SW off of its NE direction, again that would be toward the empty box canyon and it would skirt North side of Glen Isla and perhaps take on the Helms Ranch but that was considered bomb proof since the Helms had made defensive space only two weeks before the fire and had actually built it to a great degree fireproof. So, common sense tells me that video was no fluke and whatever Joy has heard from witnesses rings true.
When I realized Frizby and others were evacuating from the area, then I have to believe they were leaving from their own burn out there. Let me tell you that canyon was dense in dry vegetation and would have went up in a hurry, especially when the promised wind factor coming from the NE arrived. So what else would they have been doing up in that area? They certainly would not have been digging line since the dirt road was ample line.
Now if Frisby fired out of there and that really was a reversal of the Peeples Valley main Fire edge then you can know that Donut should have already been dead. That Peeples Valley fire was quite a distance toward Peeples Valley even when we topped out on the Weavers. I think Frisby must have known that the burn would soon close off Sesame Street and he had to really buzz back around to the Sesame Street dirt path since there was no way to go to Donut by the canyon where the burn was taking place.
He knew he had precious moments because no only was the fire reversing from the Peeples Valley toward Donut, there was a burn that by now a wind was carrying up toward the Death Canyon and Helms area and would soon close off his only access to Donut. His Adrenalin must have been in overload and his ATV motor wound up. Donut was only minutes and maybe seconds away from being burned and vehicles that were on Sesame Street were barely saved from the onslaught of that burn.
Now I have been told that Brian Frisbee is not under a mum order. But has he said anything at all about a burn one way or another? No I have only heard he has been told to keep his mouth shut. His job and career are at stake. This is why we need a Congressional investigation because there he can talk his heart out and have no retribution.
Did Brian get his award for risking his life to save Donut yet? I don’t remember hearing much of it only that he happened to save Donut.
Five years now and Frisbee is still mum? Someone has heard his story by now but I do not know who and what he has said. The old fly on the wall thing–it will eventually buzz out and tell us.
You are completely confused about when certain things happened.
Brian Frisby first ‘stumbled’ across Brendan McDonough, out by the old grader, at 3:40 PM that afternoon.
There was absolutely no ‘fire’ and/or ‘smoke’ in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area at that time.
Christopher MacKenzie’s photos ( may he rest in peace ), taken from that vantage point up on the Weavers and looking back east towards town, also show absolutely no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ emanating from the Shrine Road Youth Camp right on through the 3:55 PM timeframe ( which is when Christopher took his final photo at that Weaver Ridge location ).
After Frisby picked up McDonough, that started a long operation whereby the Blue Ridge Hotshots had to kick in and now MOVE all of the GM vehicles out of the Sesame Clearing area and over to the Youth Camp.
That vehicle ‘convoy’ arrived over at the Shrine Road Youth Camp at 4:08 PM.
There was still, at 4:08 PM, no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ coming from the Youth Camp area at that time.
Minutes later, the rest of the Blue Ridge Crew was told to get off the Sesame-to-Shrine dozer line and get into their vehicles which were now parked at the Youth Camp.
Tyson Esquibel ordered his ‘Task Force 2’ resources to get out of the Harper Canyon/Youth Camp area at 4:22 PM.
That’s when the first wind GUSTS even started hitting the Youth Camp area, but there was still no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ emanating from that area even as late as 4:22 PM.
Lookout Jerry Thompson, who was at the ‘Prescott Mining Company’ ( Pat Bernard ) location, took photos and videos from that vantage point looking back north at the Shrine Youth Camp area all the way up to 4:27 PM.
Even as late as 4:27 PM ( and according to the Thompson photos and videos ), there was still no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ emanating from the Youth Camp area.
At 4:35 PM, Frisby and Brown had already ‘chased’ everyone else out of the Youth Camp area and they started driving east themselves. They were the last ones to leave that area.
At 4:27 PM, Frisby and Brown arrived at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot and were filmed speaking there with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd.
Two minutes later ( at 4:39 PM ), Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY from out at the deployment site hit the radio.
Typo up above.
Frisby and Brown arrived at the Shrine parking lot at 4:37, not 4:27.
End of post above should have read like this…
—————————————————————————-
At 4:35 PM, Frisby and Brown had already ‘chased’ everyone else out of the Youth Camp area and they started driving east themselves.
They were the last ones to leave that area.
At 4:37 PM, Frisby and Brown arrived at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot and were filmed speaking there with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd.
Two minutes later ( at 4:39 PM ), Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call from out at the deployment site hit the radio.
—————————————————————————-
By the way… when I used the word ‘stumbled’ up above to describe how Frisby accidentally came across Brendan out at the old grader… that is not my own description. That is exactly the way Brian Frisby himself described what happened when he was talking to Prescott National Forest employees Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Jason Clawson not even a full hour after the deployment.
Frisby had no intentions of ‘rescuing’ Brendan when he set out in the BR Polaris Ranger to meet up with Eric Marsh circa 3:30 PM.
Frisby literally just happened to ‘stumble’ across Brendan, at 3:40 PM, and only then decided that both of them needed to get the hell out of that old-grader area and head back EAST towards safety.
Brendan McDonough told investigators that Frisby had specifically come out that way to ‘get him’… but that was never the case. It was a complete accident that Frisby just happened to encounter Brendan when he did, as Frisby was passing by the old-grader location on his way to meet up with Eric Marsh..
Here is a transcript of that part of Aaron Hulburd’s video with filename M2U00271.MP4, which is still available at the following public YouTube link…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04MbkaiMTQk&feature=youtu.be
This shows the part where Aaron Hulburd asks Brian Frisby, directly, how MANY of the GM Hotshots were still actually ‘in there’ when it blew up.
Frisby then tries to explain what he knows to Hulburd, and how it came to be that McDonough was not with the others out at the deployment site…
—————————————————————————-
+0:13 ( 1729:13 / 5:29:13 PM )
( Aaron Hulburd ): How many were in there?
+0:21 ( 1729:21 / 5:29:21 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): So they were sittin’ in… they were in black.
+0:24 ( 1729:24 / 5:29:24 PM )
( Jason Clawson ): I totally heard “the black”.
+0:25 ( 1729:25 / 5:29:25 PM )
( Aaron Hulburd ): So THAT’S what they were talking about? The LOOKOUT was in the black?
+0:28 ( 1729:28 / 5:29:28 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): No. No. (He’s) in black…
+0:30 ( 1729:30 / 5:29:30 PM )
( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): ( Overlapping with Frisby ) Yea… I heard THAT…
+0:31 ( 1729:31 / 5:29:31 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… in the green… ( ? that that’s the route )… and that lookout was down below… and I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… ( ? rest of ’em )… and I grabbed him… and then we got the rigs out.
—————————————————————————–
Thanks again WTKTT–it is so hard with so much disinformation released to ascertain the truth. Why we need some hard tack Congressmen and women to get these people on the stand and under oath. Donut may have believed that Marsh would have sent Frisby there? I mean did they not think of Marsh as Daddie?
I have a beautiful Husky-German Shepard mix female dog that has 8 pups. She watches those pups like a hawk so that my other dogs do not even dare get close to her din. I have a door on the dog house and keep it heated with a lamp at all times, but that gal is a watcher and protector of those she has in her care and she is on to anything that might endanger her litter.
It is disheartening when you consider that lower intelligent animals do better justice to those in their care than we as humans would sometimes allow to our own kind. What I saw at Yarnell with my own eyes was absolutely inexcusable and unexplained unless you factor in psychological factors–even mental derangement. Then to paint the picture as though it were a God thing and accident that involved men trying to do good works so the the truth and nothing but the truth could be revealed is a travesty of justice not only to those 19 dead souls but the future safety of the young men willing to follow in their work.
So I have many things to do here today–but we shall never forget that tragedy nor fail to complain about the way that investigation and white wash job was played out.
And my saying is nothing to it just do it for my own projects. One arm works good but a little slow yet Confucius said a thousand mile journey begins with the first step. It is completed one step at a time. Nothing to it just do it I say. And a cowboy without a pocket knife ain’t a cowboy.
That should read so the truth could not be revealed–something that would be disastrous to the face of those involved in doing the worse fire fighting job in history. Here the FS and Honchos of the job have the advantage over the truth. They can lie all day long and they know the public will go along. You see the public is already mentally programmed so they want to believe that those that work in the fire fighting business are totally honest and can never make mistakes or pull shenanigans. The FS people can tell their fables and public will accept the garbage as if it were the sweet smell of flowers. But those in the industry and a few that have seen the actual events unfold know when they smell a skunk.
Well maybe we need one of those milky toast preachers saying all is well–the bad is good and God fucked them over cause he had other plans. Any kind of confusing shit to add to the pot. No I like good old reality. If you had been shot in the back you might know what I mean–God did not pull the trigger, my dog fell off the seat and somehow dislodged the safety and fired the gun scratching his way back up. Yes the safety was on and it is sticking out such that it could be done. No Charlie had not learned how to shoot me on the internet nor did God direct his paws. And I did not call out to Jesus –I did call 911 but it was cause I would have left my dogs in the desert and likely they would have eventually died on that desert outback. I had accepted that I was a goner and how the hell I am writing today you might say well God had his hand in it. Maybe the Irish Gods, Jesus and ten angels as well. But for sure a truck load of first responders, a slow helicopter and doctors that put another hole in the front of me with a test tube that stayed in my lung for a month and 6 units of blood and maybe some prayers from a red socked priest brought me around.
Facts are one thing but the public mind is easily fooled by the sometimes fools that worked the Yarnell Fire Investigation. I will exclude Brett and Brent–they fined the shit out of the FS. They hiked it and knew there was skulduggery.
WTKTT–OK if Brian Frisby was there and the fire was upon them did not Brian Frisby rescue Donut? Now to get to Donut, Frisby would have had to go back out and come in the Sesame Street trail which extended up to the two track. A bull dozed path was now up to the old grader and only a short ways beyond that. Donut was just below the grader–he had something like a 100 yards from the knoll to where he would meet Brian on his ATV. Now how could the fire already be in the Shrine Area and they are saying it came around the North Ridge of that death canyon. You see if it was already in the Shrine Area, it should have been past where Donut was. It is quite a distance for Brian to have gone to save Donut. So if indeed as they are reporting the wind went from 0 to 45mph Brian would indeed have had only a very short time to retrieve Donut and still save his own life. In fact some witnesses that saw them coming out said they saw Donut and expressed that his eyes were so big that they knew they had been in deep shit and knew they would be expecting big trouble. The idea that the flame front had not arrived just yet to Donut, yet they were evacuating the Shrine Area makes me think Frisby must have known there was a burn out in the Shrine area and knew that where Donut was that he would have no escape route whatsoever since that burn out was now headed up toward the death canyon and the only thing between the Shrine burn and the death canyon was the Sesame Street dozed trail. That trail would have been useless in a 45 mph wind. Consider also that everything is uphill from the Shrine area to Helms and the death canyon.
I do not know the meteorological reports but from where we were looking at the storms, lightening and dark clouds, their location in the NE from where we were on the two track, you knew that the wind would be headed to the SW. When that torching started a burn it would have gone directly from the Shrine area toward the Helms and The Diablo Muerte Canyon. The front coming at Donut would have been at a slower rate and longer distance than that from the Shrine location. The wind vector would have determined that and with what I understand of their escape, the timing involved to get Donut when the fire was upon them in the Shrine Area already, meant they likely had their whiskers already scorched and likely the ATV seat was hot as well. Brian Frisby would know the truth on this one–Is he still mumed up by the judicial orders? You can’t get any truth out of Donut so forget what he reports.
Reply to Charlie post on January 4, 2019 at 10:51 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> WTKTT–OK if Brian Frisby was there and the fire was upon them did
>> not Brian Frisby rescue Donut? Now get to Donut- Frisby would have
>> had to go back out and come in the Sesame Street trail which
>> extended up to the two track. A bull dozed path was now up to
>> the old grader and only a short ways beyond that. Donut was just
>> below the grader–he had something like a 100 yards from the knoll
>> to where he would meet Brian on his ATV. Now how could the fire
>> already be in the Shrine Area and they are saying it came around
>> the North Ridge of that death canyon. You see if it was already
>> in the Shrine Area, it should have been past where Donut was.
You are completely confused about when certain things happened.
Brian Frisby first ‘stumbled’ across Brendan McDonough, out by the old grader, at 3:40 PM that afternoon.
There was absolutely no ‘fire’ and/or ‘smoke’ in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area at that time.
This incident begs a Congressional hearing–especially since there were torches being used in the Shrine area. I doubt Donut or any other fire person would take a chance at lying to those Congress people–pretty much a sure prison sentence to do so.
I have to admit I have tried to somewhat detach myself–when you do such, you do not look at the details. But once I saw that Frisby was in the Shrine Area, then left like gang busters to retrieve Donut then I realized how desperate he was to get to Donut before any burn out would block him from getting to Donut. Actually he could have gone on up the two track and likely gotten to the black that way before the fire got to him and Donut but his experience told him he had just enough time to save his ass if his ATV did not quit on him. Fortunately the dozer road was relatively smooth from the area where he picked up donut–especially after the first couple hundred yards of it toward Yarnell. Whew, that man is a hero for sure risking himself like that after Marsh had left Donut for dead. I do not know how fast his ATV was going but people witnesses that knew big trouble was heading their way from Donuts expression said they were not grandma driving out of there. Neither were Joy and I grandma hiking–it was double time for us and fortunately we were not caught by that burn. You see it would have skirted the North End of Glen Isla and was headed directly to where we were coming out–In fact within minutes after we escaped in my jalopy the huge tree we had parked under burned completely. After getting Penny who was near hysterical, loading her dogs and birds, etc, we headed down toward Congress in a smoke you could barely see the tail lights ahead of you. The photos Joy took of the flying embers hitting our windshield from where she took the photos were arriving from a fire still about a mile away. So you see what the GMHS crew were entertaining at their location. No hope but I now surmise that these well educated and experienced bosses knew exactly what was going to happen–and it was Suicide and Murder incorporated from bad planning and bad hiring practices. Maybe you want to believe something else but with all I see at this point there lies my opinion and until a proper Congressional Investigation happens I can’t see changing that evaluation of the Yarnell Failure at Wild Land Fire Fighting of the Century.
Yes if Amanda and company want to do the right thing–with her expertise and clout among so many elite citizens, representatives, judges, movie producers, etc., she would do just that–demand a Congressional Hearing. That would clear the thing up and verify her Version and the FS version of things if they be true–It would dry up the complaints we have for knowing we do not have the real story about the idea that some believe her husband would be the infamous killer of his crew. Do you think her and her supporters will do that? Do not hold your breath–but who knows she took the trouble to challenge Joy for no good reason–even calling Willis to the stand who really could not bear to lie and even later more or less apologized to Joy.
(I hope I did not post this a second time but if I did it puts an exclamation mark on the need for a Congressional Investigation)
Thank You–so I received a call from a wild land fire figher retired commander expressing his appreciation for my post. This person is someone any Congressman would listen to in a heart beat if an investigation were to open up. So let us hope that there are some high officials in government listening. A hearing could only expose factors that need to be addressed that involved the 19 deaths of GMHS wild land fire fighters and further will improve and establish procedures that can only save future wild land fire fighter lives. Those deaths at the Yarnell wild fire of June 30, 2013 were absolutely preventable and needless killings. And how can you skirt the issue that so many retired wild land fire fighters are unhappy with how the investigation was conducted and covered up as to the real truth of what happened at Yarnell?
Those first responders and wild land fire fighters are the heroes of this country. Recently I was saved by first responders including firemen, sheriff and state policemen, ER responders and helicopter pilots all working in unison to get me to a trauma center. My life was balanced on precious moments this past October 24, 2018 when a point blank 12 -guage shotgun past busted through three ribs, my right lung and ended up shattering my collar bone as well–I have the shot all dispersed through my chest area–except one of the shot fell out when the nurse changed the dressing. I saw it and picked it up and taped it to my phone as a souvenir.
Well yesterday I was getting a hair cut in Las Cruces when a deputy named Jesse walked in for his trim–as I was leaving I asked him was he one of the deputies that had driven the 25 miles out into the desert to drag me out from under the pick up and load me in the copter. He said he was–I did have to thank him and tell him I owe my life to him and the others that did their job efficiently and quickly. I know he was a bit surprised to see me alive and I am certain glad that he had helped. I am glad to see me alive as well. That is what we want for those young fire fighters as well–that procedures are put in place so that the Yarnell tragedy does not repeat for the same reasons it happened. If there are any Congress people who really care and understand the gravity of the loss of 19 very young lives then they will certainly do the right thing and investigate what so many experienced and retired wildland fire fighters have been screeming–the reports are not true as to the real reasons these men were needlessly killed. They will address the issues that need to be corrected.
An addition to the fact that my son also was killed due to careless bosses. Certainly they cared and even visited him in the hospital. You know their niceness did not replace his arm and all the pain he went through over the years until he died at age 29 in the year 1999. He had several surgeries where nerves were removed from the back of both legs and attempts made to replace those into his arm. His arm never came back. The million dollar settlement did not bring back his life. It did go on to his daughter and I understand helped her to have a better life and get through college.
But nothing could replace the emptiness I felt and still so often feel after his death. At the time I was making better than 2 grand a week selling gold when gold was only in the 300 dollar an ounce range. But I left that job and went onto the street life in Seattle, where he had learned his underwater welding. I had joined a veterans group that treated generally viet nam PTSD patients. I slept in an old Van parked here and there and generally where no one would dare venture–the doper areas near 21st and Washington. I carried an old Bible–maybe why I was never mugged by the black population on the streets in the area. Well once I returned to my old van and there was a bullet hole and I determined it came from a high rise apartment building across from where I was parked. But it took more than a year for me to make any sense out of life–how much it can hurt to loose a loved one as I loved my son Ted. Writing this still brings tears to my eyes–needlessly those events happened. Why we work so hard to clean up what needs to be cleaned and repair systems that are direct causes of these needless deaths. Thanks to all of you who do work so hard to get justice in the case of the 19. Somewhere you will be rewarded for your efforts–some child, mother, father, brother or sister or other loved one will be rewarded for your continued search to make things right.
Before I retire tonight there is a question that perhaps someone can answer. If Brian knew where Donut was did he not also know where the GMHS crew were? It stands to reason that he would know and if he knew so did everyone else. I can not imagine Donut being totally out of touch with his crew especially since he was the official look out. Please do not tell me his radio and cell phone were out of order and that nobody gave a shit that he was abandoned in the worst possible place you could be alone in a wild fire–that is in the middle of a manzanita field that expanded for miles in all directions with a fire headed his way.
Well one deputy did tell Joy and I that they knew all the time where the GMHS were but he said there was mass confusion–to put it mildly.
Once a fire began in the Shrine corridor how could it be diverted to not affect GMHS and even if GMHS knew the “Shrine fire”was coming their way was there anything they could do? They seemed to be blocked with no way out.
Diane,
Once a burn out fire is lit in that chapparal fuel type there would be no way to divert it other than taking advantage of and using the weather and topography features.
More importantly, the GMHS had no established lookout as they moved through the unburned fuels nor did they tell Air Attack (AA) their intentions and ask them to watch out for them.
About the fire line Diane–Here shows what may be the fire line that what I am looking at appears to be the burnout line since that narrow fire could not have been the major fire. Joy sent this this morning so we will need the professionals to look at this and tell us what it really means. So hopefully Gary, Norb, Woodsman, RTS, WTKTT, and every wild land fire fighter here of any knowledge of maps will look. The video is very short but can be stopped easily enough and you will see the burn ends in the location where we saw the drip torch videos. This is a U tube video and may disappear since we know the FS and State habit of redaction. Please give your expert view and evaluation of the video–Thank you, Sonny
Joy Collura
11:52 AM (41 minutes ago)
https://youtu.be/s4xUKhTT5cA
I might add when I saw it there were only 9 views—not many have looked there. Shrine Video Yarnell fire 2013
Reply to Charlie post on January 10, 2019 at 12:42 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> About the fire line Diane–Here shows what may be
>> the fire line that what I am looking at appears to be
>> the burnout line since that narrow fire could not
>> have been the major fire. Joy sent this this morning
>> so we will need the professionals to look at this
>> and tell us what it really means. So hopefully Gary,
>> Norb, Woodsman, RTS, WTKTT, and every wild land
>> fire fighter here of any knowledge of maps will look.
>>
>> Joy Collura
>> 11:52 AM (41 minutes ago)
>> https://youtu.be/s4xUKhTT5cA
I’m a little confused.
That YouTube video link you just posted is simply something that I posted just yesterday in response to some ‘curiosity’ that Norb Szczurek expressed recently when he said…
>> On January 8, 2019 at 12:21 pm, Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> Still curious about the “loop” fire perimeter around the Shrine
>> area (thanks for location clarification)
All that video does is show that the strange little ‘loop’ that the SAIT report document had in their ‘Fire Progesssion’ chart was centered around the Shrine of St. Joseph.
The aerial photographs included in the video are just two of MANY ‘aftermath’ photos published by AZCENTRAL and other media outlets.
They were taken in the days immediately FOLLOWING the Yarnell 2013 fire, and NOT on June 30, 2013.
The show the extent to which the fire burned into town there on the north end of Yarnell.
If you are trying to say they show something more specific… could you explain a little better?
Yes it is quite possible I have some times wrong–most of which I have gleaned from sources here. If there is any question about when things happened check with Joy Collura–she kept record of all events and has proper times. Of course the times on the burn can not be yet determined although I am certain Joy has them discovered and knows when that burnout started and when they left.
Five years has faded my memory on much of that so do consult Joy if you have any question as to when we did things and where and also even all else. If you are trying to insinuate that I might be confused as to the video and the burn or where it happened you would be wrong. I might not be able to use your google map to locate it but I would have no problem walking you right to the spot that was in the video and point out pretty close to where the drip torchers would have been working.
My opinions of the actions of Marsh and that he may have committed suicide and murder I are my own. More will be revealed–RTS and Honda have already written of his carelessness with his crew involving getting into circumstances other crews had declined due to safety issues.
Most of the times I noted, if they be off can be corrected by records and Joy has more foia’s coming so you can know if you need more evidence regarding burn out and times, please be patient. How terrible it is to get to the bottom of this thing when so much was redacted, so much withheld with the agenda to try to polish the Yarnell incident.
My apologies if you have been confused by my errors in times. Much more will be revealed.
0
Just for the general interest I asked Joy how many times we hiked people together–she said I had gone 108 times and I believe 8 of those were up through the Shrine area to the two track. Joy says she has made a total of 918 hikes with people into the area to show them the path of the GMHS, etc. She would know just about every rock and cranny along the way–so if you want some good directions or to know the exact location say of that rock foundation–she could likely give you even the co ordinates.
What I saw was pretty simple to view–Where Marsh ordered his men to go down every one of the retired bosses we hiked said it was an absolute no do situation. Now on the many other hikes Joy made with fire men and leaders she may have found some that said oh yes, Marsh was quite up in taking his men down in that death trap. But I have to doubt it. There is a big question in my mind and many others here the motive or motives Marsh was entertaining that day to do what he did.
A cowboy once told me too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. Marsh had a bunch of them.
Reply to Charlie post on January 5, 2019 at 6:51 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> If you are trying to insinuate that I might be confused as to
>> the video and the burn or where it happened you would be wrong.
I’m not ‘insinuating’ anything.
I’m just trying to work through this and find out how much can be known and/or discovered regarding this video.
At least the WHERE has now been totally verified, and that just makes it easier to recheck other existing photos and videos to try and nail down the TIME.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Of course the times on the burn can not be yet determined …
But at least we CAN know ( using already-existing photo and video evidence ) when it was NOT happening.
That can only HELP nail down a timeframe when it COULD have been happening.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> …although I am ‘certain’ Joy has them discovered and knows
>> when that burnout started and when they left.
Well… as far as just the simple TIME goes… that ‘certainly’ would seem to be an important piece of information that could be revealed WITHOUT naming any sources and/or putting anyone’s JOB at risk.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I might not be able to use your google map to locate it but I would
>> have no problem walking you right to the spot that was in the video
>> and point out pretty close to where the drip torchers would have
>> been working.
No need.
Just 16 days ago, on December 20, 2018, Joy went to the exact location there 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends and she filmed the following video…
https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw
Near the end of the video, she is standing right there by the WALTRAUD property location, where the driveway meets Shrine Road. That’s the place where all the structures were that can be seen burning in the Aaron Hulburd videos… and all the rock walls and foundations left there are visible in the video.
At the very end of the video… Joy has panned back east towards the Shrine of St. Joseph area, and that concrete medallion in the center of Shrine road that is right there at her feet is visible in satellite imagery.
It is exactly here…
Decimal Latitude: 34.228109
Decomal Longitude: -112.753673
Just click the following link to see the exact location of that ‘concrete medallion’ in Joy’s video, right at her feet…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'41.2%22N+112%C2%B045'13.2%22W/@34.228109,-112.753884,142m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.228109!4d-112.753673
The same ‘concrete medallion’ is the ‘little white dot’ in the middle of the road, right there at the pointy part of the RED BALLOON that will appear in the satellite image.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> My apologies if you have been confused by my errors in times.
No apologies necessary. This is ( in general ) ‘confusing’ stuff.
You saw what you saw. Thanks for ‘hanging in there’ on this.
Let’s just keep at it and try and get this right.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Much more will be revealed.
Looking forward to it.
WTKTT It is an honor when you give note to my posts and do correct them. I certainly am humbled by your knowledge, wisdom and continued interest in the Yarnell Fire. Your wisdom and knowledge would stand next to Joy’s on this wild fire–I know you have been incessant at getting to the truth on all things about it. Of course we are accompanied by some of the most experienced and wise wild land fire fighting mangers that have been there and done that for many years. Experience is the greatest of teachers–I could have never been as good a miner as I was except for that long lived experience–both in how to keep alive (where possible) and how to be a highly productive miner.
I give you a up scale right off the bat since you not only speak Irish, you could only be an Irish person. Well a good German would say the same to another good German as well, and so forth. I do think of you as a sort of Stephen Hawking–I wonder if you work from a wheel chair but no matter, your intelligence likely puts you in the Mensa class. My son Ted, that passed from the similar carelessness that we see in some bosses, was in the class (IQ above 140) and during his work at the University of Arizona he was working toward a degree in Chemical Engineering–I am proud to say a straight A student in something I would have had to work my ass off to get above a C average.
Yes when we went to a fire agate mine I once owned–this was during the time he had lost use of his arm and was doing the college thing–he rattled off some formulas and questioned me about some Chemical reactions. He somehow thought I ought to know since I did have University Chemistry–But I was only a B student–not the brain he might have imagined.
Ted had stopped near globe to give some black guy his sleeping bag and a $20–just the way Ted was put together so I still smile even though it cost us a long 50 mile trip back into Safford so we could get him another sleeping bag. Things happen so the best of plans are somehow interrupted. However we did spend three days together–even gathered a 5 gallon bucket of fire agate, that at the time we sold to a fellow who owned the Mercedes dealership in Tucson, Arizona. He was glad to get that 50 lbs of fire agate at $600 in those days. I tried to spit the money with Ted but he adamantly refused. He had plenty and he said he only wanted to get away from the hub bub of the city life for a few days–He had actually slept out many knights years before as a youngster (7 years old). Back then he would gather a small container of agate and make himself $30 for a few hours picking the stuff up. He was many times there when I would drill and blast just as I was when my Dad would do the same. So I always considered myself one of the Cassius Clays of miners. There were some better but not by much.
I think it pertains to experience when I talk and hope it does not sound to braggadocios. So maybe I understand Gary Olson when he tells of how well he did his job. I smile and I believe it.
One thing that I wonder is if you have ever set foot on the ground there at Yarnell to actually witness the footsteps those men took before their deaths. And if not I was curious as to why not? It can be a rude awaking to set there on the two track where Joy and I observed this humongous wild fire exactly where those men went down to their deaths, then visit the site itself by taking a now winding trail down to the deployment site. They have a shade there now (where Joy was trying to avoid the sun under a scrawny pinon tree), but then in the 106F heat of the day, Joy had her boots off and was resting–I thought mesmerized by the huge wild fire she was observing not too far in the distance. If you can imagine you might say no wonder Sonny cursed and said We got to get the hell out of here! You might also understand why Steed was in dispute with Marsh about going down into that canyon, and certainly if you looked at Joy’s photo of early morning that very day they died at the very place they were to die later that evening.
I have to hand the trophy to Joy–she has made more than 900 hikes with concerned individuals-mostly fire fighters though of course plenty of media and authors. Boots on the ground means so much in understanding the situation there. I hope everyone who really has an interest in the situation that killed 19 young souls gets the opportunity to walk in their boots so to speak–even to where they were doing fire break. That trek can boggle the mind and imagination. It is a blessing to accompany her with her first hand knowledge of the fire and her acquaintance with so many fire fighters and citizens with direct or indirect knowledge of the fire. She knows much about it that most of us do not yet know and eventually she will, in her time, give us a better understanding from all her interviews and foias-(more are headed her way)
So thanks WTKTT. I am pleased at all the good work you have done toward solving the whys and whos of this Yarnell Debacle.
For myself–I just finished off a nice big sweet potatoe with butter roasted in the coals of my wood stove. Was very good and beat hell out of that Mac Donald Big Breakfast thing with greasy sausage, greasy eggs and hash browns. Why complain, it filled my belly when I was early in Cruces this morning.
3:36 PM (2 hours ago)
WTKTT It is an honor when you give note to my posts and do correct them. I certainly am humbled by your knowledge, wisdom and continued interest in the Yarnell Fire. Your wisdom and knowledge would stand next to Joy’s on this wild fire–I know you have been incessant at getting to the truth on all things about it. Of course we are accompanied by some of the most experienced and wise wild land fire fighting mangers that have been there and done that for many years. Experience is the greatest of teachers–I could have never been as good a miner as I was except for that long lived experience–both in how to keep alive (where possible) and how to be a highly productive miner.
I give you a up scale right off the bat since you not only speak Irish, you could only be an Irish person. Well a good German would say the same to another good German as well, and so forth. I do think of you as a sort of Stephen Hawking–I wonder if you work from a wheel chair but no matter, your intelligence likely puts you in the Mensa class. My son Ted, that passed from the similar carelessness that we see in some bosses, was in the class (IQ above 140) and during his work at the University of Arizona he was working toward a degree in Chemical Engineering–I am proud to say a straight A student in something I would have had to work my ass off to get above a C average.
Yes when we went to a fire agate mine I once owned–this was during the time he had lost use of his arm and was doing the college thing–he rattled off some formulas and questioned me about some Chemical reactions. He somehow thought I ought to know since I did have University Chemistry–But I was only a B student–not the brain he might have imagined.
Ted had stopped near globe to give some black guy his sleeping bag and a $20–just the way Ted was put together so I still smile even though it cost us a long 50 mile trip back into Safford so we could get him another sleeping bag. Things happen so the best of plans are somehow interrupted. However we did spend three days together–even gathered a 5 gallon bucket of fire agate, that at the time we sold to a fellow who owned the Mercedes dealership in Tucson, Arizona. He was glad to get that 50 lbs of fire agate at $600 in those days. I tried to spit the money with Ted but he adamantly refused. He had plenty and he said he only wanted to get away from the hub bub of the city life for a few days–He had actually slept out many knights years before as a youngster (7 years old). Back then he would gather a small container of agate and make himself $30 for a few hours picking the stuff up. He was many times there when I would drill and blast just as I was when my Dad would do the same. So I always considered myself one of the Cassius Clays of miners. There were some better but not by much.
I think it pertains to experience when I talk and hope it does not sound to braggadocios. So maybe I understand Gary Olson when he tells of how well he did his job. I smile and I believe it.
One thing that I wonder is if you have ever set foot on the ground there at Yarnell to actually witness the footsteps those men took before their deaths. And if not I was curious as to why not? It can be a rude awaking to set there on the two track where Joy and I observed this humongous wild fire exactly where those men went down to their deaths, then visit the site itself by taking a now winding trail down to the deployment site. They have a shade there now (where Joy was trying to avoid the sun under a scrawny pinon tree), but then in the 106F heat of the day, Joy had her boots off and was resting–I thought mesmerized by the huge wild fire she was observing not too far in the distance. If you can imagine you might say no wonder Sonny cursed and said We got to get the hell out of here! You might also understand why Steed was in dispute with Marsh about going down into that canyon, and certainly if you looked at Joy’s photo of early morning that very day they died at the very place they were to die later that evening.
I have to hand the trophy to Joy–she has made more than 900 hikes with concerned individuals-mostly fire fighters though of course plenty of media and authors. Boots on the ground means so much in understanding the situation there. I hope everyone who really has an interest in the situation that killed 19 young souls gets the opportunity to walk in their boots so to speak–even to where they were doing fire break. That trek can boggle the mind and imagination. It is a blessing to accompany her with her first hand knowledge of the fire and her acquaintance with so many fire fighters and citizens with direct or indirect knowledge of the fire. She knows much about it that most of us do not yet know and eventually she will, in her time, give us a better understanding from all her interviews and foias-(more are headed her way)
So thanks WTKTT. I am pleased at all the good work you have done toward solving the whys and whos of this Yarnell Debacle.
For myself–I just finished off a nice big sweet potatoe with butter roasted in the coals of my wood stove. Was very good and beat hell out of that Mac Donald Big Breakfast thing with greasy sausage, greasy eggs and hash browns. Why complain, it filled my belly when I was early in Cruces this morning.
Apogies for the repeat–sometimes my uploads are so slow that I thought they were not posted Maybe I will do a Willis and say God intended the extra post for an exclamation mark.
That one was worth reading twice.
Ted was a fine man.
Here I go again–But it is perhaps a very good thing to pay attention especially to Dr. Ted Putnam–I call him Ted and I know he does not mind since we are both Sagatarians and I think I am only two days older than he or maybe he is the older gentleman.
Ted was top investigator in the 14 deaths at Storm King and he on his own spent some years on the Man Gulch disaster that killed 13. I had mentioned this before–by what is interesting was that Ted on the Storm King felt it needed more time and had psychological factors that should have been addressed. Not signing off meant almost a total black balling for his career and despite that he had to be true to himself and refuse to sign an investigation the was incomplete and did not address some important issues in people and their behavior under stress. Things he had were issues that were highly important to the industry but the majority and those in a hurry to close the case were demanding from high positions that it be finished. We see the repeat of the scenario at Yarnell.
What Dr. Ted wanted to address was how people are trained and some things that can save people in highly stressed situations. I can tell you that the men I passed were almost complete opposite to what I saw in Marsh that day. The faces at 9:30am or so (go to Joy for the exact time) I can tell you were faces of stressed men. They were not happy faces. They were not fresh as we had seen on Marsh.
Yes they were in the term I have heard the fire fighters use–lockstep.
What I have come to notice was for a long time after the deaths written on a board in Yarnell with all the photos of those deceased. Part of it that caught my undivided attention said to be a wild land fire fighter you must strictly take orders at all times.
That took me back to my boot camp days at Ft. Bliss, El Paso, July 1967. We strictly took orders and they even had us doing push ups on the black top pavement–enough to blister your hands and if you know anything about the weather in July at El Paso, it gets above a hundred just about every day of July. Well of course the design is to toughen up the men and break them down enough they will listen to their leader–not run–nor do something on their own foolish enough to risk the lives of others in the group. Good enougjh in the military.
But let us look at the wild land fire fighter. We are not having to engage the enemy in the same way. Even on front lines when you see you are overwhelmed, there can be a time to retreat–which we finally did and evacuated Vietnam.
But in fire fighting how much power do you take away from the individual? We saw the with GMHS every rule was being broken and supposedly when a superior is having you do such, then you can refuse. Yet if there was any argument with the Marsh decision to break the rules it was Steed who did but the final was that he gave in to Marsh and took his men down. Marsh was asked his comfort zone but apparently Steed was not asked of if he was he said hell no and we have heard more than once. But the problem is that the men under Steed were so well schooled in the strictly take order bit that they were afraid to assert themselves to save their own lives. You have to be certain that some of them knew it was damn dangerous and knew they were doing the wrong procedures in risking their own lives and following the leader thing. It has to be hard to go against the grain of the group in a situation and it would be highly stressful to try to go against the bosses intentions. The point is, someone needs to listen to Dr. Ted Putnam and other Psychologists and plans put into place so these narcissistic type leaders are not allowed to kill their men. A narcissist thinks only of himself–say in this instance the bosses wanted to look good and were willing to risk those young lives to elevate themselves among their Honcho mentalities. So even though most wild land fire fighter foremen know when to fold and know when to hold they may risk their mens lives for their own selfish reasons. Say, Adosh was not wrong in fining the max fine for the careless manner there. When we hiked those two investigators Brett and Brent, Brett fell down–this before the FS built a neat little winding trail to the death site. He hurt pretty bad and you can bet a few of those GMHS had done the same coming off the two track before their death. So Brent and Brett got a taste of their ordeal and that was after the place looked like a moonscape. Joy’s photos showed them the real terror those men had to face.
The point is that there is a need to teach the young ones how to empower themselves when they know they are facing unnecessary risk. That is where the psychology comes in and that is why I mention Dr. Ted Putnam. He and people of his study can work out a better system not only in hiring and especially promoting people so these disasters can be kept to a minimum.
It can be done because I have experienced these situations where bosses wanted to risk my own life yet I was able to refuse. Sometimes it hurt because I had to pick up my check and me as well and leave the job permanently. In mining we were called tramp miners because we were the boss–and if a superintendent tried funny business we would tell him go to hell. Our shifters always made what was called days pay. If you were a miner and only made days pay it meant you were not a miner. Your pay should equal more than double days pay and if you were any good at all it should be 4-5 times days pay. But of course we have the problem where someone unwilling to make undue risk could be black balled in wild land fire fighting. Yet the dangers approximate the same and we miners looked as black and sootie as any wild land fire fighter. Especially uranium and coal mining–but all of it was dirty business.
So we said in mining–shifters are a dime a dozen but a good miner is hard to find. And maybe that should somewhat apply to the man with the Pulaski. If it were fair, he would draw more pay than his immediate boss. You might say well all that grunt needs to know is how to make line. True, but how many men can you find to do all I have read that these guys go through to get the job done? I believe if you gave him fair pay above his immediate boss, you would also empower him to where he would be able to say no to certain situations. And if he did and the boss fired him then that boss would only be jeopardizing his own job.
Mining is some different though–you get paid for what you do–not what you say. So much a foot on drifts or long holes, or so much a bolt on bolts and if you only make days pay, you are better off being a shifter. That way you could stay in the lunch shack all day and if you were like Bylon bring a bottle along and sleep it off most of the shift. Underground seldom did the superintendents show and if they did their lights would have been seen by Bylon for a long ways–unless he was passed out. But we loved Bylon and our crews were always the top preformers because he knew to stay away unless we needed a nipper. That was what shifters would up doing if they visited miners–we would send the for things we needed but they did have actual nippers to do that.
So we understand there has to be some changes if the FS and Wild Land Fire Fighting Honcho’s want to save lives. It is sad to say they rather save face in incidences like Mann Gulch, Storm King, and Yarnell just to list a few of the many cases of a system that continues to deny instead of improve.
Ted, I hope you post here sometime–your take on things would be good information–even save lives of the young ones. I know that to a man, all the retired men who ran crews at wild land fire fighting are in the fray because they are concerned of the way things are being done to cause these deaths. It hurts them to see these unnecessary risks being taken and most are willing to help change the things that will stop the type sacrificing we saw at Yarnell.
Statements lie “thats what they do, protect structures” will not do to excuse these needless deaths. Shit, any strudture fighter will tell you we do not needless risk our lives when not necessary-but then a wild land fighter is the least equipped to protect structures–he has no fire engine and his Pulaski is about as useless as tits on a boar hog. The homeowner is better equipped if he has a garden hose. Quit putting out the garbage statements and tell the truth. It was a royal fuck up and certain individuals are strictly responsible for those deaths at Yarnell. We have named a couple of them but there are more due to the system and yes there are mitigating circumstances but someone wanted those men down there beside Marsh and his direct orders–my own opinion–
Before I call it a night I could not help but chime in on the retardant dumps and how it affected Yarnell residents–the guinea pigs of the retardant dump of the century–a town inundated with retardant not once (I was told 500,000 gallons) the first round during the GMHS demise of June 30,2013 but also again during the Tenderfoot Fire of 2015 when Yarnell was again smitten with a heavy dose of retardant. I do not have the figures for the second dump but there was plenty of Orange right up against housing on the West Side and certainly more about and near Yarnell.
I mention this because Joy has been having some serious chest pains. It happens we know that after the dumps there was a great upsurge in strokes, heart failure, lung problems, and cancer so that the death count of Yarnellites ran up to over 150 out of the 650 that lived there. Past tense is proper. I was one of the death counts from a heart attack that killed me right outside the cardiologist doctor’s office and in his VA parking lot, Prescott Az. Modern doctor miracles brought me back, although Joy took me off life support so I could come back to life. At that time the doctor said only many procedures they have were they able to revive me from the dead. He suggested I might have a year to live–but then that almost proved right after this last shot gun blast to my back. (well I think I have managed two or three years since then. No use keeping track if you have been on the dead list for a while.
So it does goad me into thinking Joy is suffering from what I suffered and so many Yarnellites suffered–the RETARDANT SYNDROME. If you are a fish you would have died immediately–and a lot of heavy drinkers did fall dead after the retardant dumps. If you were a fish swimming in the water you and all your buddies died withing minutes.
Hitler would have went apeshit with this stuff. It is a silent killer that most do not understand or look at. He would have loved that you could put 15% of a secret ingredient in that shit so he could have had his fun with the Jews and other dissidents to his system and especially the elderly that he saw as no longer productive to his war machine. Trump are you listening–I hope not cause this stuff might be used instead of the wall–but it too is damn expensive so I know you will weight that out. But the poor and elderly should beware, especially in towns such as Yarnell were there were both populations–mostly elderly there but some were considered of the poor classes–something that Trump believes people are there because they are lesser. Let me tell you I never thought I was poor until I met what were considered were poor Mexicans and I saw they had more material wealth that we. Well I still am poor in a way but rich of mind.
Do beware of the dangers of the retardant. Do not believe the billion dollar retardant industry that say the retardant and its secret ingredients are safe to your health. They are not–I have enough research on that and the many Yarnell deaths are a good verification of that opinion. Do not believe the billion dollar tobacco companies either. The profit margin will go down if you stop believing their lies. And believe me too much MacDonalds is not conducive to health. But at least they do spend a little of their billions to help the sick. And even be careful about prescription drugs. I don’t know how they sell that shit once you see it advertised–your eyeballs will fall out and it still sells. So good luck and good watching–don’t kill yourself by breathing too much retardant and especially that that has fell upon burning embers. The resulting cyanide can be a killer.
Captain Brown has an interesting choice of words. The other point of interest in this conversation is the fires shape on the fire perimeter map in this area (Youth Camp). The fires edge makes a distinct “loop” around what appears to me to be around the area of the Youth Camp. I am not a Fire Behavior Analyst but in my experience there are only a few explanations for this “loop”.
1. The main fire ran out of available fuel (not the case here)
2. Aggressive suppression action to push the main fire around this area (again not the case here, when the fire went to shit resources were evacuated)
3. A firing operation prior to the arrival of the main fire in an attempt to keep the main fire out of the youth camp
In my opinion number 3 is the explanation for the “loop” in the fires edge (your mileage may vary). Fires shapes typically don’t “loop” in that manner without human intervention.
Thanks Norb and if people knew your qualifications like I do they would perk up their listening. I know that is an expert opinion and Joy says there is enough evidence to bear it out certain. Well I saw the video and that was enough for me to know they were burning in there with drip torches. And Gary Olson’s favorite line–that is what we do–burn baby burn. Add to that the common sense that a burn was needed in that area then you have to sense that video was removed for a reason.
Now to Joy I tried to download the Thompson thing and so slow I will try at a different hour. I do remember Thompson–his wife was deathly ill after the fire and retardant dumps and he had moved from Yarnell after I think his home was completely burned away. We went straight to his home in Sun City I think and talked to him–he was angry about the situation.
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 7, 2019 at 11:52 am
>> Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> The other point of interest in this conversation is
>> the fires shape on the fire perimeter map in this
>> area (Youth Camp). The fires edge makes a distinct
>> “loop” around what appears to me to be around the
>> area of the Youth Camp.
If you are talking about the ‘fire perimeter’ maps that appeared in both the original SAIT and ADOSH documents… then that little ‘loop’ clearly seen on Shrine Road is NOT around the Youth Camp.
It’s actually around the Shrine of St. Joseph itself… which was known to have only ‘partially’ burned that day.
Basically… everything west of the Shrine of St. Joseph itself, and on out into the Youth Camp and Harper Canyon areas… got ‘mooscaped’ by the fire.
Whoops. Typo above.
“mooscaped”?
No… now cows were involved.
“,moonscaped”… “toasted”…. “burned up”… etc.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 1, 2019 at 8:54 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Yes but we don’t have public information to even get close to making
>> a determination of whether an ignition (if it happened coordinated
>> or not) could have impacted GM.
Actually, we do ( always have ).
There is LOTS of other video and photographic evidence in the public record that shows pretty clearly how ( and when ) the fireline that ended up killing the GM hotshots approached ( and then entered ) that box canyon.
That includes the Jerry Thompson photos/videos… which still do NOT support any significant ‘fire’ coming FROM the Shrine area, at any time that day, other than when the naturally advancing fireline finally entered that area and then burned on into Yarnell.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> What laypeople would think is insane may not be to those in the business.
>> I’ve literally ran down an interior forest road before with a drip torch
>> in order to stop an advancing fire before. But when I did that I was
>> 100% certain nobody was between us and the main fire.
Ah… but when you did that… were there also a bunch of crews and vehicles right behind you and trying to use that same road as their escape route at the same time you were out ahead of them and ‘lighting it up’?
Because that’s the scenario we are talking about here ( and what I was referring to as insane ).
As we try to nail down the timing of this mysterious video, and include the detail that the ‘wind was whipping the trees’… the only timeframe that now fits is a ‘burnout’ taking place right there in the Shrine Youth Camp area WHILE everyone who was still working there was trying to evacuate.
If not ‘insane’… that still sounds pretty ‘risky’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> A task force leader trainee is not going to be calling the
>> shots (not supposed to be) on a geographical section of
>> fireline. That’s the division or group supervisors job.
Tyson Esquibel says ( above ) that it was NOT ‘his plan’. He was just in charge of ALL the crews that would have been called upon to execute it if/when that ‘order’ came down from Cordes.
But he says that never happened, and there was never enough TIME to even ‘start’ that ‘burnout plan’.
I don’t know if that is a crock of shit, or not.
As long as we are revisiting all this… I’m just telling you what he testified to.
>> Woodsman also said.
>>
>> In this case Cordes. What did he claim in official interviews
>> in this big ignition plan?
Same as Esquibel.
Cordes detailed ( to ADOSH investigators ) the same ‘burnout’ plan, and the fact that it was ALMOST completed, but then there wasn’t enough time to do it and Cordes ordered ALL of those resources to GET OUT of that Shrine Youth Camp / Harper Canyon area.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ one ( and only ) interview with ADOSH is here…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAAS6KScxLx9RPUBzGLR9wFwa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Central%20Yavapai%20Fire%20District/Transcripts?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
There is also the testimony from Brian Frisby that at about 4:10 PM,SPGS1 Gary Cordes checked with him to see if there was still any chance of burning any part of the two-track… and Frisby said NO.
From Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
———————————————————–
Approximate time: 4:10 PM, June 30, 2013
I then headed for the Supt truck ( parked at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita pavement, where the dozer loboy had been staged as well ) I met ( Ball ) there and I was called by ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) on Tac 1 and he asked if burning the two-track was still an option. I told him NO, and that if it hasn’t yet, it will burn over the two-track very quickly. He copied and ( Eric Marsh ) called and agreed with what I said and he said where the ( GM ) trucks were parked was all black.
———————————————————–
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> You sound somewhat convinced it didn’t happen.
I am NOT ‘convinced’ of anything.
I am NOT even trying to play “devil’s advocate” on this.
I’m just trying to find out what can be ‘discovered’ about this mysterious video and whether more details can ever be determined about it… but also ‘balanced’ against other existing ( conflicting? ) evidence.
I never saw this mysterious video.
I am totally relying on the people who say they did to try and recall as much as possible about what they saw.
And you are one of those persons, right?
———————————————————-
On December 18, 2018 at 11:14 am, Woodsman said…
I also saw a video showing 2 firefighters performing a manual burnout that I have never been able to locate since. It was probably July of 2013 when I saw it. I reviewed the 3 videos wwtktt posted & none were it. I remember the wind direction was away from the road so it was a head fire not a fire backing into the wind. I may have seen a red type 6 in it but I can’t say for sure. 2 firefighters on the ground with torches I do recall. Hearsay evidence I came into tells me firefighters that have participated in staff rides have made comments amongst themselves (within earshot of others) talking about it. That’s the best I can do right now on that.
——————————————————————————————-
So you say you remember the ‘wind direction’ was AWAY from the road.
Do you also remember how HARD the wind was blowing?
Was it ‘bending’ and/or ‘whipping’ the trees… like others have reported?
If it was… then that really narrows down the TIME this video could have possibly been shot, if it was, indeed, shot on June 30, 2013.
You have also never ‘chimed in’ regarding this rock wall/foundation thing, as seen in the video.
Did YOU see any kind of rock wall/foundation, like others are reporting?
Did you ever take a look at this video that Joy shot just over a week ago there at this supposedly ‘verified’ location where the burnout video was filmed?
https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw
Can YOU verify that this video Joy took shows the same location as the video YOU saw?
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I’m convinced it’s possible it did which depending on many
>> factors, may have impacted the crew. I’m convinced it’s likely
>> many have been deceitful in their interviews and provided
>> erroneous or incomplete information to official investigators.
Of course that is possible.
Let’s keep the discussion going and try and see if we can PROVE it ( or not ).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I want to know the truth.
Me too.
Wtktt,
I don’t recall seeing a rock wall or old foundation in the video way back when. The wind I remember as maybe 10-12 mph…not light not “whipping” just moderate. I recall 2 firefighters with drip torches & the wind direction right to left in the frame with the burnout on the left side of the road/dozer push, moving left in frame (away from the road. )
I don’t recognize Joys video. The sky was not dark & the wind wasn’t whipping. One of the 3 videos you posted a few weeks ago that you said was always available looked close but the wind direction was wrong. It was low fuels shrubs & grass no timber.
The one fire I talked about stopping a head fire with a backfire years ago was on our escape route. The rest of the firefighters on scene were positioned to get the heck out before we lit it. In fact I remember setting that one from the end where we would be trapped if it didn’t work towards the escape direction we would use to get the heck out anyway.
Never underestimate people trying to do the right thing without realizing they are putting others in harm’s way because they think they know what they’re doing – but actually do not.
Was it Bucky or Hulburd who said “why are they in there?” In there in front of What? The actual fire flame front or a set One? That’s one thing I’d like to know.
Woodsman.
Sounds like you are describing (one of) the ASFD videos.
Maybe?
Possibly. It is difficult to recall in detail a video I saw over 5 years ago. Especially since I was combing the internet for anything that could help answer why this most unbelievable tragedy happened when it did. I still can’t hardly believe to this day how we could possibly lose an entire hotshot crew, save 1. I guess that’s what keeps me from giving up trying to figure it out.
Woodsman, yes 5 years ago is a long time to remember details from, at least in my case. However you never forget the fact that drip torches were being used in that Shrine area on the left side of the road. With the wind going to the west it had to be sometime after the wind changed diredtions. When I topped the mountains at around noon I could already feel the air movement beginning to switch directions, although at that time the wind was very mild. It was one of the reasons I went back to get hold of Joy. Joy is a very determined personality and changing her mind his not an easy task once she has it made up. For instance early morning while the fire was still in the boulders atop the Weavers we were at the exact spot where the men perished later that day. I wanted to go straight up to the two track since it would have been a shorter, although much steeper route to get to the two track. In effect we would have had much less manzanita jungle to fight our way through. Instead Joy determined that we should go around the North ridge of the Death Canyon which meant about twice the distance of manzanita brush to manage but without the steep incline. Joy insisted that she had much more time hiking that area and knew the route was a better way that what I wanted to do. That was true since she had made many hikes in there for years before with Snake Man and others looking at mines, etc. So, it was either do my thing and let her do hers or take her route. It did not matter a lot at that point and I would not have felt good leaving her alone in that mess as it was. True to form, the long route in a gentle slope and does come out at the two track at the base of the steep part of the Weavers. It was quite a relief to me to find that two track since now there was a clear trail to the top.
Yes ever since we saw the video and took pains to verify that they were using drip torches in the Shrine area I had always wanted to know more about it. But when we went back to find the video it had disappeared the same as that document laying aside a mapped half section of the area as extreme fire danger. Now I do not know why they would have mapped out an area and have a document signed and sealed about that area on June 16, 2013, two weeks before lightening struck the Weavers
As I remember, It was a clear day that the lightening struck but it is known that lightening can strike miles away from a storm area. Several people had actually witnessed the strike–all we saw was the smoke and that was pointed out to us by Rhonda, Joys friend that was working at the Congress Gas Station. That is when Joy said we need to go there–she had hiked up in that area from the West side of the Weavers which is an arduous hike though lots of rock and boulder areas, however vegetation is sparse on that side of the Weavers–that fact easily seen by anyone leaving Congress toward Yarnell.
So I do know it was a fact that they were torching the Shrine area on the west side of that dirt road. I know also it is a fact that Peeples Valley Chief did all he could to hide the fact that he or his crew had even been in the area. (Joy has his recorded interview and had spent more than a year trying to get FOIA records. To this day I do not know if she was ever successful–she had told the Chief she would file suit if necessary but whether her efforts ever succeeded I do not know. She would have to answer that question. I do know Joy uncovered the fact that there was also Flagstaff and Prescott firemen in the area on the day of the deaths. Nothing was ever said anywhere about that and if she got records from them I do not know. However I know she interviewed some of the people–men and women that were in the area, including firemen on those aforementioned crews.
Now why would you hide information like that. Those reports should have been foremost in any investigation. Wild Land Firefighting is not an area that requires secrecy–it is not a war against Russia or the Viet Cong or the Terrorist Organizations we are dealing with these days. It is a war against the elements caused by nature or mankind and the interested citizens that pay the taxes that support these heroes and public servants that fight the fires deserve to have full details of their actions. And by law–something that Joy by know should know damn well with the many FOIA reports she has had to squeeze out of these public servants.
So you can go along with the God theory and Oh those boys were just trying to save Yarnell theory all you want–but none of it adds up when details have been so redacted and hidden from public view that Fire people have been willing to lie or withhold information. (Donut a prime example there–but I was there when Eddie said he got a letter demanding he keep mum on anything he saw).
The actions we have seen concerning the management of the Yarnell fire and the unfortunate killing of the 19 demands full details of events from every person, crew and witness concerning the Yarnell Death Fire.
I do hope certain individuals of high esteem and positions get the Congressional hearing they are seeking. I want to see the likes of that Chief I mentioned and others lie to the Congressmen–I have noticed that even some high positioned people that have gone before Congress with their lies have been sent to prison. Not much tolerance there for liars.
So yes, it is necessary to keep the thing alive concerning the Shrine Burn–It happened as sure as I am writing this — I saw it on video as did a number of other people that were researching the fire. I wonder if Wootson and Morrison saw the video–they wrote a good paper on the fire at Yarnell. But it satisified me just by seeing it on video and taking the time and energy not only to visit the area were the rock wall foundation thing is but also because we felt it such an important viewing that Joy and I even went to Peeples Valley and up the dirt roads there to see if there was a possible twin to the area that we might have missed. Sorry, but the burn out did happen–why it is hidden has yet to be revealed.
I talked to a man today–Bob Roberts–whom I had purchased a guitar amp from. I want him to repair an acoustic guitar I purchased that was brand new and made in El Paso. The damn thing had the bridge and neck bridge so low that you could not fret it without the strings twanging against the frets. People are getting sloppy in their craftsmanship, although the guitar has a great look. As we were talking he mentioned how he was a drill sergeant during the Viet Nam era–two years older than I am and was drafted at 26. We got to talking and he at 16 had his kidneys shut down so he was facing death–doctors told him there was no way to heal. Well some old preacher prayed over him and a few months later a trip back to the doctors and he was totally healed–something they could not explain.
It brought to mind the Yarnell deaths of the 19 and I mentioned it. He said well God must have had something else for those men. I said no, God if he is good would never snuff out young lives for the fun of it or because he needed to do that. I said at least two men, their bosses, were responsible for those deaths. They did everything wrong that a wild land fire fighter boss should know concerning keeping their men safe–they needlessly risked their crew’s lives and in doing so killed them. He said, you know, you would be right in that instance if that is the way it happened.
He gave me a nice little thing he made up of a picture of the three crosses, a cowboy hat and a pair of worn snake hide cowboy boots with a saying “Las Cruces, New Mexico–The City of Three Crosses–Where no one stands alone.” Well it has a reistra of chilies in the picture as well.
No one stands alone on the Investigative Media Site concerning the search for the truth either.
Charlie,
So glad to see you recovered well enough from your gunshot injury to share your memories of the burn in the Shrine area.
I have been reading your comments and learning.
At first I thought that GMHS left the black to go to Yarnell to protect structures and residents but now I am thinking that they could have been responding to the need to stop the fire from entering Glen Ilah and Yarnell by providing the expertise and manpower needed to properly execute this type of operation.
Maybe the radio messages to “hurry up” were for this purpose. Firefighters on scene in the Shrine corridor may have waited as long as they could for GMHS and then carried out the burn themselves doing the best they could but it got out of control and burned through Glen Isla and caught GMHS.
These are my thoughts at this point. I am not skilled in the firefighting industry. I am a retired teacher trying to make sense of this disaster.
Thanks Diane and it is good to hear from you and yes quite a feat to survive that last incident. I really feel we would have survived the fire as well had we been that close to the boulder field but it seems after all there were other factors that had not been brought up.
Like you, I have had a long learning curve. One thing is certain, the story that the men were headed there to protect structures is false. Any wild land fire fighter that was watching what Joy and I were seeing knew it would be fruitless to even attempt to detain a fire like that. Then knew there was absolutely no reason to drop down into that death canyon so thick that Willis described it as a place no ordinary citizen could transverse. Well he should have added no ordinary Bear either–unless they knew how to Bear Wallow. And there were wallowed places in the area.
Way back the wild land fighters were saying that every rule in the safety book of wild land fire fighting were broken–and every wild land fire fighter–mostly commanders retired saw the situation and said hell no, I would never allow my crew to get trapped down there in that canyon with the fire about to change direction.
Sad part is that Steed gave in to Marsh after some of Marsh’s cajoling. Why I do not know since Steed was a Marine and with his fire savvy he had to know that he had less than a 50-50 to make it to the Helms. He would have damn well known that you let the Big Dog Eat and you absolutely stay in the safety zone with those young lives at stake.
If you had the view Joy and I had at 11:30 or thereabout, you would have immediately recognized that even an army of a thousand men would be useless against such a monster. Flames laying down parallel to the ground and tornadoes of fire that equal the release of an atom bomb every 15 minutes according to the reports of the fire specialists Wooten and Morrison–facts that these men had to know from their training. Never ever get uphill from a fire with a storm in the distance about to reverse winds on you and especially in a canyon that becomes a chimney funnel for the wind and fire. Fire advance doubles in velocity every ten degrees of slope and can you imagine winds of 45mph–something they had experienced before and knew the dangers.
So with all these factors they knew what we citizens had to ferret out–fortunately Joy and I had hiked so many experienced wild land fire fighters we began to realize that there was plenty stink in the reports put out. Most of it does not make sense once you understand what Marsh did to kill the men and then you understand why you see so many commanders want a true take on the debacle.
I do hope an FBI person gets hold of his and a thorough background check on Marsh and Steed proceeds. FBI has some of the world’s best profilers and to do justice, a psychological evaluation of those men all the way back to their childhood should be done and evaluated. Only madness on the part of Marsh can explain what he did to his crew–and it behooves us to know why Steed would give in to his demands despite knowing what he was going at a less than 50-50 chance to make it though that canyon.
I hope this year brings some closure–Dr. Ted Putnam worked on the Man Gulch thing some 6 or 7 years–near Helena, Montana. He came to a startling conclusion on a cover up that occurred there killing I think 14 men and he also was head death investigator at the Storm King Fire in Colorado–31 deaths if I remember right–one he could not sign off on even though he was chief investigator.
He sees the same things going on here and hopefully will be a big factor in the changes needed to prevent such tragedies
Apologies for the long almost tirade at the system as it is. I did feel so much sadness and sometimes could not pass that monument without tears knowing that those young men were deprived of the best part of their lives needlessly. I feel compassion for the loved ones since I too lost a son–for the same reason–careless bosses..
Correct that 14 at Storm King fire –Yarnell has been the largest tragedy and 13 at Mann Gulch. I mistyped 31 when 19 has been the greatest number
The Rattle Snake fire was the largest FF death 15 until the Yarnell Hill Fire of 19. For 60 years the Rattle Snake fire held the distinction. Not something any one should be proud of.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 2, 2019 at 8:04 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I don’t recall seeing a rock wall or old foundation in the
>> video way back when.
>>
>> The wind I remember as maybe 10-12 mph…not light not
>> “whipping” just moderate.
>>
>> I recall 2 firefighters with drip torches & the wind direction
>> right to left in the frame with the burnout on the left side
>> of the road/dozer push, moving left in frame (away from the road. )
>>
>> I don’t recognize Joys video.
>>
>> The sky was not dark & the wind wasn’t whipping.
First and foremost… THANK YOU for hanging in there on this and for the straightforward, honest ( and coherent ) response(s).
These kinds of responses are going to be the only way to ever get the cows anywhere near the barn on this issue.
It’s starting to sound like you *may* have seen a completely DIFFERENT video than the one Joy and Sonny have been talking about with the ‘rock wall’ and the ‘wind blowing the trees’.
It’s entirely possible that a number of different videos emerged publicly not long after the tragedy, and then they all might have ‘disappeared’ later on.
Example: The YouTube user 4490red originally published about a number of different videos he took in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 on his public YouTube page… but then he removed them all when someone informed him they were being referenced and discussed here on this ongoing public forum.
SIDENOTE: As has been reported on this forum some time ago… the ‘YouTube’ user with the name ‘4490red’ is actually Arizona Globe DOC Type 2 Crew Staff Officer Anthony Caulfield. He and his Globe DOC Crew were assigned to do structure protection on the north side of the fire, in Peeples Valley, on June 30, 2013. Following the deployment, they were ‘staged’ at the U-Store-It storage facility on the north side of Yarnell proper.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> One of the 3 videos you posted a few weeks ago that you said
>> was always available looked close but the wind direction was
>> wrong. It was low fuels shrubs & grass no timber.
Those were the 3 videos that were shot by one of the Prescott National Forest FFs ( Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowelll and Aaron Hulburd ) who were there on Hays Ranch Road with their ATVs while those burnouts were taking place.
They were part of that original package of 21 videos that were eventually ‘popped loose’ from U.S. Forestry via an FOIA request from John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA.
Since you recall that it was sometime in July of 2013 when you saw the video, it’s actually highly UNLIKELY that it was one of those three ASFD videos eventually released by the Prescott National Forest and U.S. Forestry.
That would have been ‘too soon’ for them to be appearing anywhere on a public website.
Aaron Hulburd’s 21 videos were made available to the the original SAIT right away, following the incident, but then Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Brad Mayhew, and the rest of the SAI team did everything they could to HIDE the videos and make sure they never saw the light of day.
So that is why it’s highly unlikely that a video YOU might have seen ( publicly ) in July of 2013 was actually one of those ‘secret’ ASFD videos. It took a long time for them to ‘pop loose’ and become public.
However… there were a LOT of firefighters who had been working out there at Hays Ranch Road and might have also been shooting videos of this same Hays Ranch Road burnout operation. I suppose it’s possible that one of THEM may have posted a similar video but then ended up removing it.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Never underestimate people trying to do the right thing without realizing
>> they are putting others in harm’s way because they think they know what
>> they’re doing – but actually do not.
That pretty much sums up the decision making that was going on in Yarnell on the afternoon of June 30, 2013… and especially the decision making on the part of Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.
Whatever was going on between THEM… and whatever THEY thought they might be trying to accomplish… they FORGOT ( or just din’t care ) how many OTHER lives they were gambling with that day.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Was it Bucky or Hulburd who said “why are they in there?”
It was KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, at +1:53 in the Aaron Hulburd video M2U00266R, which was filmed on Shrine Road starting at 4:47 PM and is 5 minutes and 39 seconds long.
Video M2U00266R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bfvu4xIbHU&feature=youtu.be
Actual transcript from that part of the video…
——————————————————————————
+1:37 ( 1649:06 / 4:49:06 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): Probly in their shelters right now.
+1:38 ( 1649:07 / 4:49:07 PM )
(Background: OPS1 Todd Abel): Ah… any communication yet?
+1:40 ( 1649:09 / 4:49:09 PM )
(Background: Bravo 33 – John Burfiend): No. Negative. Ah… Tanker nine one zero thought… uh… he heard him but… uh… I haven’t been able to get anything.
+1:41 ( 1649:10 / 4:49:10 PM )
(Foreground: Jason Clawson): They weren’t in the black?
+1:47 ( 1649:16 / 4:49:16 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Yea.
+1:48 ( 1649:17 / 4:49:17 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): They’re in here. Right… right here. Right behind here…
+1:49 ( 1649:18 / 4:49:18 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Why did they…
+1:51 ( 1649:20 / 4:49:20 PM )
(Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): Yea.
+1:52 ( 1649:21 / 4:49:21 PM )
(Foreground: Jason Clawson): So they were in danger.
+1:53 ( 1649:22 / 4:49:22 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): ( With disbelief in his voice ) Yea. WHY?
————————————————————————————-
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> In there in front of What?
>> The actual fire flame front or a set One?
>> That’s one thing I’d like to know.
At that point ( 4:49 PM ), Aaron Hulburd believed that the GM Hotshots had actually deployed just west of where they were standing, somewhere ‘behind’ what they could see standing there on Shrine Road.
They had seen the GM buggies come out and pass them, going east on Shrine Road, and they all agreed that all they had seen were ‘drivers’ in the buggies.
So Aaron Hulburd was assuming that their ‘work location’ had been somewhere back there on Shrine Road and they just didn’t make it out in their buggies.
There is never any conversation between any of the Prescott National Forest FFs, ( in any of Aaron Hulburd’s videos that were shot on Shrine Road about any kind of ‘burnout’ there in that area.
Thanks for all of that rehash, WTKTT.
I absolutely recall searching online right away when I found out about the loss of the crew for anything & everything I could find about what the frick just happened. Oh, to go back in time & save that stuff. I was in shock at the time. I searched daily & I remember just about blowing a gasket when I viewed the “SAIR” animated video of “We’ll never really know what happened ” fame. Pissed me off. Still does. Thanks
Reply to Woodsman post on January 2, 2019 at 7:56 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Thanks for all of that rehash, WTKTT.
>>
>> I absolutely recall searching online right away when I found out
>> about the loss of the crew for anything & everything I could find
>> about what the frick just happened. Oh, to go back in time & save
>> that stuff. I was in shock at the time. I searched daily & I remember
>> just about blowing a gasket when I viewed the “SAIR” animated video
>> of “We’ll never really know what happened ” fame.
>>
>> Pissed me off. Still does.
Same here.
Thanks again for hanging in there and answering some questions about the whole ‘video’ thing.
I don’t know where it all goes from here… but at least the recent discussion has cleared up some details about what people did ( or did NOT ) see in the video(s).
It will still probably take some people finally coming forward ( more than one? ) and admitting they participated in one of these ‘burnouts’ in order to clear up this ‘mystery’.
Yes Woodsman–details 5 years ago–only the important thing someone was doing a burn out when two men were lighting up foilage in the Shrine video.
Well one truth is there were drip torches being used in the Shrine area–time has to be determined. How the hell can videos be redacted–There must be someone that copied those and especially the person that posted them, then removed them. Whew, the military organization works its magic as it wants. How about that letter as well that we had seen and is now nowhere to be found? Very suspicious behavior when those things happen. We want to know who did it and why.
Again WTKTT–I would stand before Congress or any Judge and swear on my Irish Gods and Mothers grave as to what I saw and that video was brought to my attention by Joy. We were both amazed to the point that we made the trip to the Shrine rock wall foundation thing to verify that was the area they were using Drip torches in the video. We also made a trip to Peeples Valley. Now explicit details other than firemen using drip torches might be brought up by hypnosis–it has been years. Perhaps Joy remembers more than I could have in my memory bank. Our problem was then that we did not know how crafty people that are in the fire cover up scheme of things, else I am certain Joy would have copied that video. You assume you can go back to it and as I remember we did but a short time after it disappeared.
So in effect, there was a back burn or burn out–makes sense for the area there and that is what Gary Olson has said wild land fire fighters do–they burn. The video may never be found not the time proven but you can know it happened and I had no reason to lie, nor does Joy, Norb nor Woodsman and the tall lady that directed Joy to the video passed away. Joy knows her name. They saw what they saw–we saw it and made sure it was being done in the Shrine area. What it proves is that people in certain high positions can get things redacted and put out a story that matches their heroic job at Yarnell and God fucked up theory–well I mean needed those men somewhere else –wild fires in heaven?
Woodsman, that July time 2013 would be confirmed since that was about the time we saw it as I remember–well we had been living in a basketball court on cots provided by Red Cross for 7 days before being allowed to go back in but it was some time we were there–maybe a week or two before the video was discovered–not by Joy but by another lady at the library who directed Joy to that and then Joy had me see it. The photo of the earlier paper putting that half section aside on June 16, 2013 I believe was discovered by Joy alone and then showed to me. The seal on it was impressive but when we went to try to find it again, that also was redacted.
When FS or other State officials do such, it means they have something to hide in my opinion. Then you begin to mistrust the whole system.
That is why I hope someone looks into the amount of retardant dumped and see if it is a true record or another fluke. A whistle blower gets 15% where people are stiffing the government. And that could add to millions for someone. If you can play games with the truth on a fire incident, how about where it is possible to line your pockets? But that would take someone on the inside who has access to the records and can show the malpractice.
Well, well, well. What have we got here? On their homepage the Peeples Valley fire department shows beyond all doubt that they have driptorches in their inventory & they use them. Let the photos on their homepage scroll & focus on photo 15. Interesting.
http://peeplesvalleyfire.org
Check out all of the other wildland related photos on their website. Gotta have the VLAT photos & dirty blackened yellow shirts too….hey, they’re the real deal!
I’m gettin a real bad feeling on this one. Anyone else feeling me? Something you wanna get off your chest, Mr. Brandon?
And I’m willing to bet that’s one of the newer red painted driptorches mounted on the bed of their type 6 engine on the drivers side behind the cab. It’s possible it’s a fire extinguisher but?
Hurry & check out the photos before they’re scrubbed. Something stinks…stinks real bad.
What other fire departments were known to be in the Shrine area?
Thanks again Woodsman, I had to laugh at that one. Robert Brandon is the new Chief–after the Yarnell incident he had given a talk at the home of Dr. Anderson with several people in attendance. Dr. Anderson is now passed but gave a summary of what was said to Joy–he was after told to keep quiet no more talks.
He knows plenty since he was in the Shrine area that day and had discussed his participation there–but I was not privy to what was said except Joy does know what was told to her from Dr. Anderson. I do not know if she will report on that —
Yes they are experienced with those drip torches–I do not remember for sure if the drip torch guy wore white hats or yellow–but seeing the yellow now it seems to jog my memory that the hats were yellow. I will have to check with Joy — It was the burning that got my attention and I was not paying attention to their clothes, etc. but likely Joy did. We were interested to see the drip torches being used–and as I remember, it was not Joy that found the video–another person at the Yarnell library showed Joy the video as I remember Joy saying.
At the time we were being chastised for looking into the fire–it was upsetting the Librarian because we were investigating everything about the fire at the time. So many people just wanted to go along with the flow and not question things we knew were out of order. There are still people that hate the idea that anyone would even question the way the investigation was played out.
Reply to Woodsman post on December 31, 2018 at 10:47 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Well, well, well. What have we got here?
>> On their homepage the Peeples Valley fire department shows beyond
>> all doubt that they have driptorches in their inventory & they use them.
Maybe NOW they do… but back in 2013 the Peeples Valley firefighters who were interviewed by both ADOSH and SAIT said they did NOT have “any skills” whatsoever to even assist with any ‘burnouts’.
There’s never been any question which Peeples Valley firefighters ( and which of their vehicles ) had been assigned to the Shrine area on June 30, 2013.
Both the SAIT and ADOSH investigation reports had those details.
From the very top of the SAIT interview notes with the four Peeples Valley firefighters who had been assigned to the Shrine area…
————————————————————————————————–
Interviewed Peeples Valley, Jacob Moder, Ronald Smith, Bob Brandon and Matthew Keehner on E54 and T64 FD units, structure protection working under Tyson TFLD (t)
—————————————————————————————————
Same information was repeated/confirmed in the ADOSH intervew with Peeples Valley FD…
From PDF page 4 of document entitled “L3419 Notes redacted.pdf” in the ADOSH evidence folder.
—————————————————————————————————
7/29/2013 – ADOSH opening conference with Peeples Valley Fire Department
I spoke with Shane Chaves today July 29, 2013. Mr. Chaves works for the Yavapai Sheriff’s Department and was the Acting Fire Chief with the Peeples Valley Fire Department during the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Mr. Chaves stated that he had four firefighters and two engines assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire (Structure Group 1) who were working off of Shrine Road west of Yarnell on the south end of a dozer line
Employee interviews – spoke with Captain McCray and Fire Captain Jake Moder
Four man crew and two engines were at the Yarnell Hill Fire assigned to Structural 1 protection and fire line construction and were working off of Shrine road waiting for a Dozer to arrive.
The four man crew consisted of the following FFs…
Fire Captain Jake Moder
Fire Captain Ron Smith
Bob Brandon
Matt Keehner
Spoke with Jake Moder.
Captain Moder stated that Peeples Valley was assigned by BLM to the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013 at 0400 and was to report to Model Creek School at 0730. A briefing was held at 0800, crew was assigned to Structure 1 protection in Yarnell. IC Task Force Leader was Trainee Tyson Esquibel from Peoria Fire Department. Crew was stationed on Shrine Road waiting for a Dozer. Dozer eventually dug a fireline that ended at a wash. Lots of chainsaw work being done by the crew to tie into ridge north of Yarnell. Made contact with a spotter from Central Yavapai Fire District.
Matt Keehner was assigned to scout area and serve as a temporary lookout and was assisted by CYFD fire fighter.
Wind shifted at 1545 and everyone immediately evacuated the area.
———————————————————————————————-
** PEEPLES VALLEY FIREFIGHTERS SAID THEY DID NOT HAVE
** THE ‘SKILLS’ TO DO ANY KIND OF BURNOUT ON JUNE 30, 2013
According to the SAIT interview notes, the 4 Peeples Valley firefighters assigned to the Shrine area participated in a discussion, around 3:00 PM, about prepping and burning out the dozer line back to the Shrine area.
But not only do the interview notes say this ‘burnout’ did NOT take place, the notes also say the Peeples Valley firefighters did NOT want to participate in the plan, even if initiated, because they did not have the (quote) “skills to do any kind of burning”.
From the SAIT interview notes…
—————————————————————————————————
Central Yavapai + BR discuss prep and burn out to house to dozer line back to Shrine area, however they did not initiate the burn. Peeples discussion was they didn’t want to do it because they don’t have those skills to do any kind of burning, around 1500.
—————————————————————————————————
So… if it ever turns out that the Peeples Valley FFs were doing ANY kind of ‘burning’ on June 30, 2013 then they lied their asses off to BOTH the SAIT and ADOSH investigators.
shit- I am in a project
I have to finish it in a few days
then off to next conference
Sorry
I want to soooo bad jump off it to answer this iin FULL DETAIL
but I am signed under another area
man
Bob Brandon just sent me data
Wtkkt- remind me about this via email in 2 weeks
shit
I am on fire wanting to stop what I am doing but I cannot
sigh
remind me…I do have those public records where they state Peeples Valley’s able functions June 30, 2013
man
I cannot even try to log in under another device
shit
YES- remind me soon ( 2 weeks back channel) because I actually HAVE the Peeples Valley documentation of their allowance in that area June 30, 2013
Thanks, WTKTT. The information in your posts creates more questions for me than answers. (I know you’re reporting on what ended up in the official investigation records, which I appreciate)
So, different groups of firefighters from different agencies discussed burning out the Shrine area but apparently no one claims (on record) that they “initiated it?” I can read this testimony 2 ways:
1. The discussed ground ignition in the Shrine area didn’t take place….”initiated ” started, etc.
2. The discussed ground ignition in the Shrine area DID take place, started, performed, etc…..but members of Peeples VFD were not the “initiators” or the one’s who started the ignition.
In essence, for me personally, the interview notes you posted is not sufficient evidence for me to be convinced ground ignition did not occurr in the Shrine area late afternoon on June 30, 2013. They simply claim they were not the ones to initiate it.
Is it possible for an interpreter of the interview notes in this instance to place too much faith and trust as to the accuracy and truthfulness of the account? I mean, really, if what I’m saying may have occurred actually took place, the potential civil and/or criminal liability exposure to the participants would be effectively ‘through the roof,’ thus creating a fairly strong incentive for deception if not outright lying when questioned about it.
What other personnel where in the Shrine area the afternoon of June 30, 2013?
I should restate: perceived civil and/or criminal liability exposure created an incentive to lie or deceive….because we know there is more to the story. Ie: the lack of coordination between forces potentially trapping a crew with an ignition, etc.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 1, 2019 at 6:08 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> What other personnel where in the Shrine area
>> the afternoon of June 30, 2013?
Everyone ( except Hotshot crews GM and BR ) who was ‘officially’ working in the Yarnell area the afternoon of June 30, 2013 was working under the direction of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel, whose direct supervisor was SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
So any ‘official’ burnouts that might have taken place were under Esquibel’s direct command.
Here is what TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel told the ADOSH investigators when he was asked directly whether or not this ‘planned burnout’ was ever ( officially ) initiated…
Q = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
A = TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel
——————————————————————————
3189 A: I think we had a solid plan in place to complete this burnout…
3190
3191 Q: Mm-hm.
3192
3193 A: …and likely if that, uh, thunderhead wouldn’t have been right above us, we
3194 probably could’ve been successful with that.
3231
3232 Q: That was the plan, though, huh?
3233
3234 A: That was the plan.
3235
3236 Q: High on this heel, dings – dozer line, and then what was gonna be done in
3237 here? Nothing?
3238
3239 A: Well, we were gonna burn out around this part and just keep it completely out
3240 of there.
3241
3242 Q: Did you guys ever burn it out?
3243
3244 A: No, sir. We didn’t have time.
3245
3246 Q: You were gonna fire that area, I guess?
3247
3248 A: Um, the plan was that evening or night, if we got it done and everything in
3249 place.
3250
3251 Q: Okay. The fire was just too…
3252
3253 A: Proposed – it was proposed.
3254
3255 Q: Whose idea was that?
3256
3257 A: Um, I’m not sure. It – it probably came down from operations.
3258
3259 Q: Does it work.
3260
3261 A: Does – does burnouts work?
3262
3263 Q: Yeah.
3264
3265 A: Yes, definitely. They work very well.
3266
3267 Q: Even with all that extreme brush and fire and wind and…
3268
3269 A: Yeah, I think if we wouldn’t have got the strong winds, I think it would’ve
3270 been a great plan.
3271
3272 Q: It would’ve worked?
3273
3274 A: Yes, sir.
—————————————————————————-
So if TFLD(t) Esquibel isn’t also lying his ass off… then anyone who may have started a coordinated drip-torch burnout in the Shrine Youth Camp area would have been totally ‘freelancing’ and doing that OUTSIDE of Esquibel’s command.
** TREES BLOWING IN THE WIND
If one of the other well-described things seen in that mysterious video is that the ‘winds were blowing the trees’ really hard… then that helps put a TIME on when that video could have been filmed near that Shrine Youth camp, where ALL of the Task Force and GM and BR vehicles were parked.
Tyson Esquibel testified that the wind didn’t ‘ramp up’ in that area ( to the degree that people have said the trees were seen blowing in the video ) until 4:22 PM that day.
He actually wrote that time down in his own official ‘Unit Log’ and was referring to that written time during his ADOSH interview…
Q = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
A = TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel
———————————————————————————
2135 Q: Okay. So 1622, you said the winds have gone up to 45 miles an hour.
2136
2137 A: Yeah. I mean, it was, uh, a gust came out of the west, um, and it went from
2138 zero to 45. It was no, uh, gradual.
———————————————————————————
At 4:22 PM… the shit was already hitting the fan out at the Shrine Youth Camp, with ‘multiple spots’ igniting from the flames that were already cresting the northern ridge, and everyone who was out there was already hauling ass to evacuate east on Shrine road.
It still seems unlikely anyone ( even if just freelancers ) would have ‘stopped’, at that point, to just light some stupid bushes up on the side of the road. That actually would have been an insane thing to do, at that point, since everyone was trying to use that exact corridor to get the hell out of there at that exact time.
So getting the exact TIME nailed down for this mysterious video is still one of the ‘next steps’ to getting this all figure out.
If it was BEFORE 4:22 PM… then the trees would not have been ‘whipping in the wind’.
If it was AT or AFTER 4:22 PM… then regardless of how insane that might have been to be doing such a thing at that time, in that place, it really could not possibly have had anything to do with what eventually happened out in the box canyon.
Yes but we don’t have public information to even get close to making a determination of whether an ignition (if it happened coordinated or not) could have impacted GM. What laypeople would think is insane may not be to those in the business. I’ve literally ran down an interior forest road before with a drip torch in order to stop an advancing fire before. But when I did that I was 100% certain nobody was between us and the main fire.
A task force leader trainee is not going to be calling the shots (not supposed to be) on a geographical section of fireline. That’s the division or group supervisors job. In this case Cordes. What did he claim in official interviews in this big ignition plan? Everyone is saying it didnt happen or pointing fingers elsewhere.
You sound somewhat convinced it didn’t happen. I’m convinced it’s possible it did which depending on many factors, may have impacted the crew. I’m convinced it’s likely many have been deceitful in their interviews and provided erroneous or incomplete information to official investigators. I want to know the truth.
And let me be clear, a backfire CAN be a good call. It may be your only viable option to stop a fire that’s about impact structures depending on conditions one finds themselves in. If the fire is going to blow through there anyway, you have a chance to stop it with fire. BUT….timing is everything. Well, not everything but it’s crucial for timing to be spot on to be successful. Another major consideration is 100% coordination with all resources on scene. Everyone needs to be on the same page. So what some think is crazy is actually not. It can be the right call to make & the only option.
It’s vitally important experienced and competent professionals perform these tactics. If I’m not mistaken, I think Rocksteady is an ignition specialist from the great white North. Ask him he’ll tell you I’m right.
I’m telling you. This entire hybridization of municipal firefighters with drip torches is a really, really bad idea.
I have heard from on the YH Fire line – those folks to folks just in the Fire Industry say exactly what Woodsman is saying and I think Norb needs to do number six on this one of the fire orders – reevaluate – because what Woodsman is saying does not pertain to all hybrids but there is a larger number being groomed incorrectly – I will soon be training to be a hybrid so I will let you know soon enough HOW the current ways are training – yeah funny I have the key points memorized, eh…weather, observe, action, ER/SZ, Lookout, Reevaluate, Communication, Instructions, Control, Fight Fire Aggressively with Safety In Mind and the number seven matches the watchout seven and some corny ass humor (male energy) on six matching eight…and Instructions to uh-hum…ugh…and so any other helpful tips for the watch-outs and memorizing and learning them to heart- I would like to learn them now versus in March in a classroom…thanks…
Rocksteady is one hell of an amazing person and I cannot tell you – ok I will – I never been so proud to know a person – he is solid and I hope he chimes in on this topic.
As far as the hybrid stuff, Woodsman…the new word is coalition not hybrid..
(better to manipulate the budget folks in administration into buying into that word)
If done RIGHT – it can be done…
I want you the world to meet Forest and Keegan Schaefer,
Woodsman…I saw Forest when I was out hiking one day on the Weavers (I never met the man – never heard his name before that moment) – I kept seeing Norb too (mind you- neither men were there just something that happens to me)
so I get home and I gently shared what I saw to Norb and guess what – Forest was a real fella not something I just saw and what I saw was real time shit…really..and I met Forest at the IAWF conference a few weeks back..- .15th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit and 5th Human Dimensions of Wildland Fire Conference and there is really solid hybrids out there but there is also some who should never even be a firefighter but they are because daddy wanted him to follow in his footsteps or some crock reason but they do not belong out there…no way!
I met Tom Harbour who I did my post on awhile back
Nice man.
I told the man I really felt tempted to take down my post yet I have to keep bringing more of his email threads to the front as I reach the quiet months after I am an official firefighter this year…
Bill wrote about him awhile back too:
https://wildfiretoday.com/tag/tom-harbour/
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/10/12/Fred-J-Schoeffler-the-USFS-Aerial-Firefighting-Use-and-Effectiveness-AFUE-Study-Was-Utilized-On-The-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-on-June-30-2013-and-recorded-Air-To-Ground-AG-radio-transmissions-that-exist-as-audio-and-written-transcripts-These-recordings-and-transcripts-3-ring-binder-are-being-withheld-and-denied-that-they-even-exist-I-just-came-across-a-few-key-public-records-basically-affirming-they-do-in-fact-exist-So-then-how-can-the-US-Forest-Service-ethically-and-legally-continue-to-deny-these-Public-Records-exist
took a break from my project that will keep me up and into this day and probably the next with no sleep…staying awake until it is done…alot of uploading and typing…wish it was a post but just a Wildland Safety Project I am on a deadline…
Reply to Woodsman post on January 1, 2019 at 8:54 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Yes but we don’t have public information to even
>> get close to making a determination of whether
>> an ignition (if it happened coordinated or not)
>> could have impacted GM.
Actually… we do. Always have.
Running out of column space down here so see a longer ‘Reply’ up above left as a new parent-level comment…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476068
Where they were burning in the video had to be the last of their burn out procedure so that means whatever time it took to get there since that should have been the end point or very near it.
…or it could have just been a very ‘specific’ structure-protection burnout only in that one location.
Whoever was doing it might have just thought it was a last-ditch effort to try and protect those multiple structures there on the WALTRAUD property.
Obviously that didn’t work.
Less than an hour later all those structures were seen still burning down in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos filmed at that same location.
And good point, wtktt. Just because Peeples FD shows pictures of them using drip torches on their own web page (and air tankers, wildland gear, fire shelters, etc etc) today doesn’t mean they had them in June of 2013. Maybe they did maybe they didn’t.
It does show that the fire departments in Yavapai county AZ are not averse to the utilization of drip.torches in their wildfire operations today. In some parts of the country this simply doesn’t happen. Only the forestry agencies perform ignition during fire suppression. I expect this is prevalent in central Arizona because of the major interbreeding between wildland & municipal fire departments there.
Well Joy has interviewed two different fire people that were in the Shrine Area including Prescott and Flagstaff firemen–so it could be that the Peeples Valley Fire Department did not do the burning because they were not qualified but it seems to me that people in that Yarnell incident were doing a lot of things they were not qualified at. I have no idea who they were but two things I am absolutely certain of is that there were men using drip torches in that video above the Shrine area and I am also certain that Chief lied through his teeth at Peeples Valley concerning his crew being in the area when he consented to an interview with Joy and I was present.
If the wind shift could be so bad by 3:45 that day to cause the crews to evacuate the area then that burn out certainly would have had time to trap the GMHS crew. I detected the switch much earlier but it was a gentle breeze change at the top of the Weavers.
This is why a Congressional Hearing would be in order. So damn much misinformation and lies to cover up what really happened. I do believe several people have solid evidence right not but are bidding their time to reveal it. It would bear down on whoever was running the show and knowing that the GMHS were headed down into the manzanita trap that had the burn out going –bad judgement somewhere –but that you can chalk up to the educated idiots that were running that show at Yarnell.
WTKTT wrote wind Shifted at 15:45–military time converted to citizen time is 3:45, much earlier than 37 minutes later. Was this an official report or was there something signifying that it actually shifted later? Hell, I felt the wind shifts when we topped the Weavers before and later after I went back to get Joy off the two track–so somewhere around 1 PM or a bit later–Joy keeps record of the exact time–she even knew it took me 40 minutes to get back to her. She even knew the time she talked to Marsh–she had called her mom about that time and had that record on her phone. By then I knew it was get the hell off the Weavers–reason I cajoled Joy so much going down the other side–and in those temperatures I would have loved to just find a shady bush or tree to lie down under for a half hour. No, I knew damn sure that it was Drill Sergeant action–move out double time. I don’t think Joy understood the gravity of our predicament at the time but it came home to both of us when we arrived back at my bat mobile and were watching people getting the hell out of Dodge with flames and smoke down the street less than a quarter mile..
There is always a calm before a storm, at least for sure in New Mexico where I grew up on the Desert and in those Burro Mountains. Back in the early 60’s on that desert west of Lordsburg, you would get a sudden calm, look to the west and see a huge cloud of dust that looked like the roller of a roller pin except it was vastly wide and reached an altitude of a mile or so. You knew you had about 15 minutes to tie the tent down good and gather up anything that would blow away. That had to be some years equaling the dust bowl era of the states like Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas Panhandle and such. It was such that you could barely see 50 ft. and standing in it you could literally turn your head to the side and feel sand falling out of your ear.
Of course you would put a rag over your nose hoping to keep out some of the dirt and trying to avoid it by getting inside a car only made it worse. We accepted it and generally withing an hour or two a thunderstorm would follow, although not always with a shower.
We never thought much of it since Dad was doing his mining/prospecting and Mom never complained. Maybe she knew it wouldn’t do any good. Dad would have said what the hell–he could cuss like a sailor–but that had to be a relief from how bad things could be from natural sources–well government as well since once he got built up everything was taken down with D-9 dozers–home, rock shop, partially built trading post and his huge collection of rocks and Indian matate’s now buried under that Gary Overpass to Nowhere, New Mexico.
Don’t get me wrong–I am as much a proud American citizen as I am proud to have been of Irish decent. But it goes to show that people in high places are apt to make bad decisions just as we saw in Yarnell during the killing of the GMHS crew. You see, my Dad was a machine gunner in WW1 and even lied about his age so he could go fight for this country. When I got drafted he was against the Viet Nam war-I remember him saying Son you ought not go. Well I said look you served your country and so I will go. I was somewhat of a religious nut and registered as a consciencous objector. But I changed that idea once drafted and asked to be a machine gunner. Of course you do not tell the Army what you intend to do–you get the reply if we need any shit out of you we will squeeze your head. So I was relegated to the engineer core and given an MOS of Bulldozer operator because I had by this time been using a D-8 cable job on my agate claims near Hachita. I have never regretted my service time but I do regret seeing those young men dying and loosing limbs and other maiming that goes on screwing around with those sorry Terrorists in the Middle East countries. I rather think if we move out and let those bastards kill themselves our country would be less bothered by such things as we saw in the twin tower disaster. Personally I think Trump has the better idea of taking our men out of Syria and I would hope all those places like Afghanistan and Iraq.
But for the wall and Mexico paying for it, that is phooey. Remember when Bush said Iraq will pay for the war with oil? That was a damn lie and the taxpayer ponied up and is still paying for those Middle East Wars. Are they protecting our Oil Supply–most out of Saudi Arabia? I don’t think so–we have plenty left here as well as solar and electric are in vogue to replace the polluting oil usage. Politics is so much scamming–well it is very interesting to read Investigative Media. At least you get a fresh breath of the truth from readers and posters here.
I have no agenda to tell you I saw the drip torching near the Shrine. It happened but someone had and agenda to remove it from public view the same as the documented and sealed paper restricting that half section in the death canyon dated June 16, 2013. I do remember the date of the paper and at the time I was wondering why such a high restriction needing such a paper–was it to be a controlled burn-now called prescribed burn? It certainly needed one and don’t you just love the bullshit terms the FS comes up with. Defensible Space–crap –just say clean the fucking area out around your house if you want to keep it and especially if you don’t buy into insurance. I certainly do not like the bullshit jargon–tell it like it is. Clean the area say 25 ft or more around your home, trailer, tent or maybe sleeping bag. .
Reply to Charlie post on January 3, 2019 at 11:14 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> WTKTT wrote wind Shifted at 15:45–military time converted
>> to citizen time is 3:45, much earlier than 37 minutes later.
>> Was this an official report or was there something signifying
>> that it actually shifted later?
I never said the winds ‘shifted’ later than 3:45 PM.
I was talking about the first reports of heavy wind GUSTS in the Shrine Youth Camp area… which is what would have caused the trees to the blowing in the wind the way you have repeatedly said you saw in the video.
TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel testified that the kinds of winds that you say you were seeing in the video only first ‘hit’ the Shrine Road Youth Camp area at exactly 4:22 PM. That’s what I meant by ’37 minutes after 3:45 PM’.
There is no doubt that the winds began to ‘shift’ in the Peeples Valley and Yarnell area circa 3:45 PM. It became so obvious this was now happening that Air Attack Rory Collins was recorded talking to ‘Bravo 33’ pilot Thomas French about it at exactly 3:50 PM. Collins was making sure that French was AWARE the winds were now ‘shifting’ and that the fire was now headed straight for Yarnell.
This is the exact transcript of that exchange between Air Attack Rory Collins and pilot Thomas French in lead planen ‘Bravo 33’ from the Air-To-Air channel video recording named 20130630_1628_EP…
——————————————————————————–
+2:38 ( 1550.24 / 3:50.24 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550.26 / 3:50.26 PM )
(B33 – Thomas French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550.27 / 3:50.27 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550.44 / 3:50.44 PM )
(B33 – Thomas French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550.46 / 3:50.46 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1550.51 / 3:50.51 PM )
(B33 – Thomas French): Ground contact Alpha.
———————————————————————————–
So again… ( just to be clear )…
The winds DID begin to ‘shift’ in the area circa 3:45 PM, and the fire began ‘rotating around’ and burning more towards Yarnell than Peeples Valley.
But the wind GUSTS ( such as the ones that would have caused the trees to blow the way you saw them in the video ) came much later, when the thunderstorm OUTFLOW winds arrived in the area.
And as for the earliest time those kinds of WIND GUSTS were first hitting the Shrine Road Youth Camp area ( where you say the video was filmed )… TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel was so sure that time was 4:22 PM he wrote it down in his Unit Log.
So I guess until more evidence comes up… we’ll have to trust Esquibel’s testimony and assume that the video you saw could not have been filmed any earlier than 4:22 PM.
That would be only 17 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call hit the radio at exactly 4:39 PM.
SIDENOTE: If anyone has a better idea regarding how to nail down a possible TIME for this mysterious video… let’s hear it. I’m open to any path forward, at this point.
Remember Matt-
remember this
as you name it a game…this YH Fire….
you say “check” or whatever verbiage you want
Those pieces may it be a pawn or the King end up in the same box at the end-
please speak up.
The current way is they say we the Forestry are the solution and ADOSH was there to find blame and that is not facts…ADOSH was never given the proper data and hit with touhy a lot. and so there is a lot that has not yet been discussed or revealed but in it this pony wall is not even a real focus.
What I did note is Wtktt has access to vintage satellite imagery so in that – why not do a scan of the Corridor and post that for the world versus this pony wall. Why not post the orange gorilla of the spaces between Harper Canyon…Chung’s place…and show that area if you have access to vintage archival satellite images because last I knew they removed that access to the common folk…except a few lingering spots…Why not show the images from Saturday 10 to noon and Sunday 10 to 5pm.
I do not ask for the source of where you get something just asking for the images to match up to what is shown…because you would be surprised just in that topic alone the redaction one can do in the highest levels so share to us if you will more satellite images from the year before – that year – the year after.
I love the topic of 10 to noon Saturday the most…
Reply to Joy A Collura post on December 22, 2018 at 10:22 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> What I did note is Wtktt has access to vintage satellite imagery
I do not have any kind of special “access to vintage satellite imagery”.
The recently posted satellite images of that Shrine Road area taken at various past dates are simply screen shots from Google Earth, which allows you to ‘dial back’ on all available ( public ) satellite images for any location you are looking at in Google Earth.
Google Earth is FREE.
You can download it from this page ( scroll to bottom of page for Desktop version )…
https://www.google.com/earth/versions/
Once installed… it works just like Google Maps on the web, except now there is a ‘toolbar’ at the top of the satellite imagery which contains a button that lets you go BACKWARD in time and see all available satellite imagery for the location you are viewing.
I happen to believe Joy has seen the Orange Gorilla and the Satellite images that were redacted yet certain individuals have access and copies of the same. The people that have the images for whatever reasons have requested anonymity and that we respect. These persons are former high ranking officers who had worked intelligence so they demand the respect and are bidding their time,.
There is a time to laugh, a time to cry and then a time to reveal the truth of the Yarnell Cover up. So I respect their judgement–their expertise in these matters are respected.
Just the idea that a man of the ilk of Dr. Ted Putnam has agreed with so many of the high ranking wild land fire fighting men who post on Investigative Media makes us amazed that such people as the movie makers and book writers did not use his wisdom on the matters of wild land fire death investigation of the 19 GMHS. But on the other hand we can understand when there is a cover up, you certainly do not want the experienced wild land fire fighter people that have bossed crews or seen the actions of such crews as GMHS giving their reviews of what caused the deaths and why that Yarnell effort to control a savage killer was a complete failure. Yes a failure in that it was allowed to kill 19 young lives and destroy a third of Yarnell and more of Glen Isla. Even the evacuation was near disaster since people were uninformed of the fire coming right at them or if they were informed it was at the very moment the fire was licking at their homes. Despite that, there were some that accepted awards as if they had actually saved some wandering elderly lady. The truth was given to Joy and I by the Smiths about the award and I think Joy had reported that. But if you are a fire fighter and someone offers an award, I suppose you might be a person that would accept it even if you did not deserve it. More awards might move you up the ladder so we can get a better view of the ass you are. I personally felt the only award given at Yarnell should have been the one saying the worst fire fighting effort ever–an example that ought to be put forward to all fire fighters of how not to do wild land fire fighting.
Knowledge helps us to stay healthy and alive. One of the awards for heroism should be presented to Zack Ashoor, although sadly, post humorously. I met Zack when I was hiking from town back toward my camping area (at that time I was sleeping out on the ground in the Yarnell area–(Mary had kicked us out of the motel expecting rent to spike for people to reconstruct Yarnell). It was shortly after we were allowed to return to the Yarnell disaster. He was driving an old 4×4 Bronco and pulled up along the roadside where I was walking. He wanted to know how to get to the site where the men died. I told him that it was a restricted area and he would not be allowed to go there. He replied that he knew some of the wild land fire fighters and had cried when he had seen the news in a Phoenix cantina.
Seeing the mans determination, I offered to hike him above the area where he could look down on the site. I got in his vehicle and we headed to where he could park his vehicle and straight away headed up the usual trail Joy and I had been hiking so many news people, fire fighters, writers and others interested to visit the area. We never charged for those hikes, but sometimes we would get a meal and now and again a good bottle of whiskey came my way.
But Zack was a special case. I saw he had a breathing mechanism–for oxygen. He explained that he had asthma and that it necessary. He said he might not be able to keep a fast pace but I said he need not worry–I could do the turtle thing well enough. On the hike he said he was working on a thing for fire fighters–an oxygen source that would be so light they could have it on wild fires and it would be a life saver in certain situations. He said he had drank in bars with the GMHS and had befriended some of them–his interest to do the oxygen pack had no doubt led him there.
Early on the retardant was fresh and we hiked through areas of orange and red colors, something you had to do to get to the two track. Once at the two track, I pointed out the location of where the men died.,. Zack said I am going down there to pay my respects. I said you might get arrested if any authority shows up, but he replied that he would stand before any judge if he did. He said nothing would stop him to go to the site. So we did drop down to the site–Joy and I had been there before and previous to the word being put out that it was restricted. She has a picture of me next to the flag pole near the location of their demise.
But had I known and had Zack known the dangers of breathing the toxins that are emitted from retardant, perhaps we would not have hiked the area. You see, Zack was only 29 years of age, the same age Ted, my oldest son died. It was soon after that hike that Zack had called Joy and I with thanks and greetings. But only a few weeks after that call Zack deceased at the young age of 29. Saddly, Zack had joined the ranks of his friends in the GMHS crew He had been deprived of completing his goal to produce that oxygen device he had dreamed of producing to help save the fire fighter in his dangerous oxygen deprived environment. I have since felt that Zack was a casualty of the Yarnell incident with his already compromised lungs. The gases, especially the ammonia released from fire retardant is a lung killer. It kills fish quickly, but with humans it is a slow killer unless you are already compromised as would the elderly and people with lung problems such as Zack was suffering. To add to the problem, ammonium nitrates and phophates poured on embers creates another chemical and gas called cyanide. We have no idea what 5-15% of chemicals added to this chemical concoction dropped from airplanes would be. That part of the soup is trade secret only given out to a qualified medical person and he must keep his mouth shut as to the chemicals added else suffer a fine and possible jail time for revealing the trade secret. But with some study, those intelligent enough to give this a bit of study will certainly avoid the orange and red chemical soup drops’
So if a Yarnell incident award should be presented, it would be to Zack for his brave hike to respect the friends he was so incessantly working to help. Another unsung hero that should be remembered for his efforts.
Usually I do not mention typos because most of you are intelligent enough to decipher meanings, correct the King’s English and understand the use of proper punctuation, participles, etc. Many of those have bat hides of various labels, but sometimes it might be difficult to get the sentence going properly despite your improved college abilities. I use the spelling correction where possible–but when on a phone doing verbal input it sometimes becomes frustrating–especially when the damn thing can’t understand my English. Actually if I had my druthers, I would speak and write Irish instead of the King’s English. As you know I am not a fan of the Queen Bee of England and could care less who the Prince marries albeit we do know the Mayflower brought in the English as founders of this country. We are all people and sometimes forget our neighbors and their actual human relationship to us.
Be kind to your neighbor and treat him well–that is if you want to be respected and treated well in return. Of course especially in this day and age that does not always hold true and certain societies have demonized other societies–well shown among Jews and Arabs and both look down on infidels (anyone not believing as they do). This can go for Christian and other religions as well. For instance I once belonged to a Saturday going Chruch of God that was under the dictatorship of Herbert W. Armstrong. The principles are right in most cases but he believe all but 144,000 were doomed to Hell (whatever that entails–dead forever no resurrection) so that only so many elite would make it to heaven. As a young man I thought I wanted to be among those 144,000 that the Bible speaks of –so I attended Ambassador College, his idea of a perfect College with mansion and all in Pasadena, California. In those days (early 60’s) the smog was so intense you sometimes would choke up–God forgot to have him locate in a decent area free of pollution. Be it as it was this young country boy was use to wide open spaces and clean air. I lasted a semester and that was that.
But over time, education and life in general gave me a broader view of life. Young fellows are usually more easily controlled and fooled by the religious zealots and hoaxers but some do escape the nonsense and see the world more as it really is.
I talk of Irish Gods, some like the Norse Gods (maybe Gary Olson) and some fall nicely into Christianity, Judaism and God forbid the Islam sects that want to kill all they consider Infidels.
Evil doers can be found in all religions–perhaps degrees of it in all of us except most of us can avoid it, Still there is plenty temptation when you get up the ladder where the big bucks abound. What is amazing with the human mind is the ability it has to justify anything from grand theft to murder. Yet there are some individuals with the strictest moral concerns that they will go out of their way to expose these deluded individuals. It is among the people who communicate here on this that deserve that commendation. They are the watchers–ever wanting to expose the wrong doing that has seemed to permeate much of our society from the political arena to our public servant offices and especially among the industrial giants that provide products and services. Here is a small list of the watchers–John Daugherty, Joy Collura, Wants to Know the Truth, Gary Olson, Woodsman, Norb from Lake Tahoe, Fred Shoeffler, Mr. Honda, Dr. Ted Putnam, and just about all I have read on this site with concerns to the loss of life in the fire fighting profession and how to improve the safety and progress therein. These are by no means in order of importance since every person involved here is part of the whole and just as important in helping resolve the issues of safety, health, environmental pollution and the general well being and proper operation of wild land fire fighting as well as general issues related to public health and safety. JD works a general plan–well worth his awards. Joy I have know personally and over the years know of her good character and concerted efforts to expose the truth about the Yarnell debacle. We were there, we saw it, and you expert
Money has corrupted and big business has entered into the fire fighting business including the retardant business. Undoubtedly there are some in the upper echelons that are bought and paid for. I saw it in Uranium mining where workers lives and health were blatantly compromised and knew that certain mine inspectors were being wined and dined and under table handed to keep the high grade Uranium flowing. These were culprits such as Standard Oil of Ohio, Kerr McGhee, Union Carbide and last but certainly not least United Nuclear. I had worked for all those companies as an underground Uranium miner–exception was Union Carbide where I worked at Tempaiute (Rachael, Nevada) in their tungsten mine. So I saw first hand the big business willingness to skirt health and safety issues concerning workers. Anything that slowed production cut into profits. Deaths and Maiming were down played and if they made news, it would be on back pages. A miner was killed? What else is news? Gary Olson lost his father because he had fallen down a 1200 ft shaft that I worked in–Sec. 30 out of Grants, New Mexico. That was a Uranium mine owned by Kerr McGhee and you can bet his dad died because someone had him doing a dangerous job in the wrong manner. No one falls down a shaft if proper safety measures are taken–there is a way to tie yourself off so you can hang off the side in a harness if you are working the sides of a shaft–but we do not have the particulars and if you do you can bet they were written up in such a way it was his fault
I do know the sensation of falling off in a shaft–the one I fell into was the Johnny Bull mine west of Lordsburg. It was an 80 foot shaft that had previously killed a 7 year old girl previously who with her friend was near the shaft and slipped off into it. The ground around it was loose but there was a beautiful chrysocolla vein near the surface. (chrysocolla is similar in composition and looks like turquoise but much harder) There was a sill near the vein where you could get near enough to work out a few pieces without any safety measures. Cora Simonton had the mine so allowed my Dad and I to work in it. Years Later after my Dad passed, I went there alone and decided to work some of the gemstone loose from that vein. Fortunately I had a rope along so I tied myself off to a mesquite bush near the shaft. The area that was jutted off into the shaft and where I could stand gave way enough I slipped off into the shaft. There was something like ten foot of slack before I hit the end of the rope tied about my waist. There wasn’t time to get excited so for some reason I felt good swinging back and forth over that 80 foot shaft. The jutted part had kept me from hitting the side of the shaft but I realized I has barely missed pounding my head against the side as I swung. In those days I had no problem climbing back out but it must have hit me how fortunate I was not to have fallen to my death as that little girl had.
Cora Simington was caring for the girls but she was elderly–not a person at her age you would want looking after your child around several mine shafts in the area–another disaster that was really not an accident but a case of a careless watcher.
.
Now the typo-post humus–no humor in the death of Zack.
When will the movies do a documentary–accompany JD and his–but make a movie for all the nation and especially fire and first responders to view? Soon I hope while the iron is hot.
I think in this all the point I am trying to get across to Sonny
we all saw a wall in the video with 2 FFs with drip torches not a structure right past the Shrine – that wall – not structure so there was no structure in the video but the wall matched to video and that does not mean structure was not there just not in the video just the pony wall was visible in video.
I have asked the locals and none remember a structure there on June 30 2013 so I went direct and asked the owner and no reply yet
I am not giving up until clarification is giving to this specific topic.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 22, 2018 at 9:52 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> there was no structure in the video but the wall matched to video
>> and that does not mean structure was not there just not in the video
>> just the pony wall was visible in video.
I suppose that is perfectly possible.
Depending on the location of the camera person, and the camera ‘angle’ used in that original ‘burnout’ video… it’s possible that one of the walls/foundations on that WALTRAUD property appeared in the video, but the multiple structures that were there did not.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I have asked the locals and none remember a structure there on
>> June 30 2013 so I went direct and asked the owner and no reply yet
There WERE multiple structures ( and a propane tank ) there on June 30, 2013.
They are seen burning down at that exact location ( but not fully collapsed yet ) in THREE of the Aaron Hulburd videos he shot on June 30, 2013 between 5:29 PM and 5:34 PM
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I am not giving up until clarification is giving to this specific topic.
At least we are ‘clarified’ ( and confirmed ) now on the EXACT LOCATION as seen in this original ‘burnout’ video, right?
It was filmed right there by that WALTRAUD property, 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road ends.
I see there is new comments as far as numbers (not yet looked at) but I need to focus time elsewhere so best thing I did was talk direct to the people in person and that area was on fire 4:10 to 4:30pm June 30 2013 and this is exact words how it was explained from five locals I met with yesterday and will meet more this week as I came home to do a few things but will get to this before I head out to next training and conference:
they said:
I can see the fire in the Corridor/Valley/Kenny’s when I was up on the Grotto Lookout. after 4pm
I was on the roof of the trailer of Kenny Headricks on Saturday and they said BLM would not allow anyone out there (Kenny lives by Sesame area)
Both our healths are heavily affected after the YH Fire. I have photos. I will try and send them to you. from that weekend (Neighbors to Jourdan Waltraud)
There was no mop up in our area. They said we had to evacuate in a few hours (345pm) and one half hour later they said GO GO GO and all the equipment was removed off the Grotto and Shrine from Fire Industry Folks. (They got their prescriptions all together. They hit the corner and FFs said go to Prescott and they said no they will go to Surprise) . .( they said Mark Danielson left same time as them and in the 21 newly released Forestry videos there is Mark’s white truck leaving so what time was that?) (They spoke about the fire behavior over by Harper Canyon and as well over by Kenny Headricks- the dirt path that goes from Shrine to Sesame fire behavior so that is my SESAME TO SHRINE CORRIDOR or locals call it the dirt path or “valley”
Jim and I took photos of all the fire behavior and retardant drops. The day we left I took alot of photos. I will look for you Joy.
I always thought they were not totally equipped.
there was a Flagstaff fire crew up at the lookout at the Grotto Lookout June 30 2013 410pm and this man said the leader of this crew bought his canoe for a FF discount from $300 to $200 the following Saturday and he said they were “deployed” in that area that June 30 2013 was what he was told…yes he used the word deployed he said…
Now since I am short on time I did fact check and confirm there was no mop up or later burn…When I finally get all these owners accounts on my posts then it will make sense but like Sonny said there is above ground documentation that George Vargas stated they had but they told Mr. Schoeffler it does not exist…Once you begin to hear the YCSO radio nets and the 911 calls of who’s place was burning and when….just give me time because I am beyond drained….all I have done is fire stuff and I am only working on Mrs Robinson stuff this week then on to next conference…so I can only crack one thing at a time…then I have firefighting training coming before you know it and I have to remember 16 of the 18 watchout situations still…
My brain needs a R and R
so to answer you all—I am going to need WTKTT to take my upcoming emails and the videos and update you all on the wall topic but I do not have time to do that…ok…sorry
Reply to Joy A Collura post on December 21, 2018 at 3:01 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I am going to need WTKTT to take my upcoming emails and
>> the videos and update you all on the wall topic.
Two days ago, on December 20, 2018, you went out to the location under discussion ( at about 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road ends )… and you shot the following video…
https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw
Everything in your new video matches the still photos you took previously at that same location on June 11, 2015.
And everything in your new video also matches the photos and satellite imagery contained in the following ‘slideshow’…
https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k
Thanks Joy–You have uncovered so many testimonies and facts–You deserve credit and awards for your incessant search and revelations of the facts about the Yarnell Debacle –Wild Land Fire Failure of the Century.
I am privileged to have been along with you most of that journey–my contribution is minuscule next to yours. However I remain supporter of your efforts to get at the truth and should a FS award be given then it should be to you for never backing down on what you find to be the facts.
World,
Until further data is shown please remember the old verbiage fact check
I do believe my time in this as an eyewitness will carry weight at the finish line.
REMINDER- I never am doing a book or a movie.
Remember WTKTT is basing comment on the public information and there is way too much information not public – for example – who was out there in that area that belonged to the Feds? Can you name them here for me. Who also was with Abel out of Northern Arizona where Abel was? Who is this lookout assigned that I have documented out in the Shrine.area? There is more but if I put the facts – they will cover it up – I now that for sure. Yet once some areas are all set in line – I believe soon I will not be the one telling this but the first hand folks will be doing just that.
Have you ever noticed when any type of key points make it to IM then Gary or Wttkt fill the pages with long drawn out comments (almost seems like they had the post saved ready for times like such) so the key points are lost in the weeds
Last night I dined with one of the people in the significant area where the key players were…I guarantee there is way too much being withheld. I know because I am in that same boat listening to so many that were there. After listening to him for several hours I have come to the conclusion there will soon be some revelations.
Today is procedure day for so many so God Bless…and Sonny I hope they get all the cancer this time because in my time in person knowing you they took enough out that my nick name for you “skeleton” may not be far off after all the skin removals I have eye-witnessed. I hope you all have a safe Holiday week…Happy New Year…I am doing a project for Mikel so not able to come here for a bit but wanted to assure you I did make the appointed time to reach the direct people involved to have them first hand answer the blog inquiries.
I am going to spend 15 minutes here after I post this to look at map since on a desktop to see if we have the same wall…
brb
I cannot get to street view.
tried Sonny
I would have to re-pick this up in a few weeks
I am just too loaded up each day with activities that in reality I am awaiting my own quiet time away from any type of worldly activities
the wall I thought we emailed Gary and Wtktt the wall a long time ago when we took the walk that time.
Sorry I am unable to remove myself from a serious project.
Remind me again soon Sonny…mid to late January…k
Reply to Joy A Collura post on December 19, 2018 at 9:33 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> the wall I thought we emailed Gary and Wtktt the wall a
>> long time ago when we took the walk that time.
Are these the ‘wall’ photos you are talking about?…
https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k
That link is a SLIDESHOW containing 9 photographs.
The first THREE photos are pictures you took of a ‘rock wall’, somewhere on Shrine Road. There was no GPS information embedded in the photos so still not sure exactly where they were taken.
Are these actually photos of the ‘rock wall’ that has been under discussion at 100 yards west on Shrine Road from the point where the pavement turns to dirt?
The other SIX photographs are all SATELLITE images, taken on various dates, of that exact spot on Shrine Road 100 yards west of where the pavement turns to dirt.
They clearly show the ‘structures’ that were there at that parcel at that 100-yard distance point, and then the bare walls/foundations that were left after the structures burned down circa 5:30 PM on June 30, 2013.
In each of the satellite photos, a RED BALLOON marks that exact 100-yard point.
Photos in this ‘slideshow’…
1. Rock wall/foundation. Photo taken 6/11/2015.
2. Rock wall/foundation. Photo taken 6/11/2015.
3. Rock wall/foundation. Photo taken 6/11/2015.
4. Satellite image dated 04/01/2009
5. Satellite image dated 09/09/2010
6. Satellite image dated 05/14/2011 – Clearl shows two blue-roof structures.
7. Satellite image dated 01/04/2014 – Post fire. Clearly shows foundations/walls.
8. Satellite image dated 11/06/2015 – Also clearly shows foundations/walls.
9. Satellite image dated 06/11/2017 – Ditto.
the wall is an easy hike from the Shrine or even can drive right up to it before the fence and locked gate as the road is closed just beyond that. So perhaps someone visiting the Shrine will get a photo and post it.
Well they did dig a couple holes in my head and one has a bunch of stitches –fortunately that Doctor said they got the one on the eye lid since she said that one could have gone into the eye. There are three more they did not take out because of the time limits to these two. I was there from 9:30 until 2 and they had to cut again on both since they did not get all the cancer on the first cut–but she said I was clear after they cut deeper and wider on both. I appreciate the Mohs Surgery since before they would send me home then two or three weeks later send a notice that you had to go back–they did not get all the cancer. That was after you pretty well had healed up–but now they can determine in half an hour or so whether they need to cut out more–and they usually do –much better since I know at least those two are gone. I got a face lift but only on the right side–that one she said yeah you will have that side pull the wrinkles out. Anything might improve my looks right now so I am not worried or vain about it.
I deserve all this in a way–being a Uranium miner is now against my grain–back then I thought it was a good thing. But after looking at Chernobyl, Japan and all the pollution rained down on the Mormons and others in the Cedar City Area I realize it is akin to the way the retardant dumps are being made without the truth being known. Considering that neither of my sisters nor my brother have had cancers–none of them mined uranium–then you can see what it does. I have some lung issues now–but that has come on after our many hikes through the retardant. We did not know what we were doing to ourselves then–since then after we noticed how many people at Yarnell were dying and suffering lung issues, I started to study on what the retardant really is and what it will do to health. It is not hard to connect the retardant with deaths and lung, heart and cancer issues after the research. Yarnell and people there were truly guinea pigs but you can bet the FS honchos have turned a blind eye to the problem just as the Uranium Bosses did with worker contamination. Trouble is in both cases most of the bosses had and have in the case of retardant that it is harmless to human health. They do not want to look like the monkeys they are if the truth comes out–same with the deaths of the 19. Your work Joy will reveal a bunch of monkeys as far as the cover up at Yarnell. Do you want to do that–it can make apes out of monkeys.
So in those days we did not know better but knowledge sets you free of the ignorance.
I was just listening how this country has the greatest number of prisoners of any country–much of it related to dope–people were doing and still do long –even life sentences put out on such things as marijuana possession–the law is the law. But sometimes the law is made by monkeys as well–there is something wrong when people are being locked when treatment is a better option. Edgar Allen Poe would be doing hard time if he lived in this era–as would many people that used opium during those times.
If you drive across Arizona there is some mighty long open spaces–but I thought Dolan Springs might be a good area to cordon off since there are already so many dopers in that area. (Texas is another wide open country for this as well). There dope and dopers could do their thing and if they got too sick, treatment would be available. You see the dope is cheap if you bring it in by the truck load–and this would stop all the drug king pins in their tracks, crime would be greatly reduced and it would be a cheap alternative to locking people up. Dopers would love it because they could go to these drug areas and do their thing without having to rob, steal and harm others to get their medicine. Include the prescription dope as well –but big Pharma would chime in on that I am certain.
This is the modern world and dope is not going away–quit being the self righteous people we are–dopers are addicted and need that high much like an alcoholic need his booze. So your kid would be safe for the most part since all the dopers would be in doperville.
I have never connected much with doper types–most non dopers do not get their life style–Why you need these doper camps. But that is my opinion–like it or not–Truchain.mp would rather use the Jack Boot Approach–He thinks everyone is weak if they are not filthy rich–very little compassion for those on the lower end of the food
Reply to Charlie post on December 20, 2018 at 1:05 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> the wall is an easy hike from the Shrine or even can drive
>> right up to it before the fence and locked gate as the road
>> is closed just beyond that. So perhaps someone visiting
>> the Shrine will get a photo and post it.
Sounds like you had a busy ( but good ) day and they knew what they were doing.
Did you get a chance to look at those first THREE photos in that video ‘slideshow’ link posted above?
Here is the link again…
https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k
Are those photos of the ‘rock wall/foundation’ you saw in the ‘burnout’ video?
Not at all WTKTT. This is a rock wall but what I saw in the video is barely a foot or so in height and was a part of a foundation. We need a photo of the actual thing we saw. I never took one but someone will eventually get one and post it. Nothing like that photo I looked at on the site you posted.
I am talking about the one photo that I can get with a tall wall–I could not see the others with my set up but one arrow looks about right for where the wall might be. If I can get up there I will get a photo of exactly what was in the video–the wall you showed in the first photo was not in that video clip.
I think that foundation would be hard to see by satellite view–one hike we did it was covered with foliage to a good degree.
I am absolute on the burn out that was being done in that area. What I wonder was how long would it take to drip torch for two miles. Walking is about three mph so a mile in 20 minutes walking –40 minutes for two miles–but doing a drip torch job? I thought maybe an hour to hour and a half might be a reasonable estimate but I have no experience in that area. So a good estimate would come from someone that knows that work and preferably some one that has actually drip torched areas. Woodsman, Norb, Gary, and so forth all would be reasonable sources for that information–maybe they would post and let us know.
Reply to Charlie post on December 20, 2018 at 11:12 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I think that foundation would be hard to see by satellite
Actually… it’s not.
Here is that link ( again ) to the 9-photo ‘slideshow’ mentioned above…
https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k
Photo number 7 is a satellite image taken January 4, 2014, just several months after the Yarnell fire.
It CLEARLY shows the ‘foundations’ and ‘walls’ that were there on that
parcel at 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road turns to dirt.
Also ( asking again )… are the FIRST THREE photos in that ‘slideshow’ pictures
of the same rock wall/foundation you saw in the ‘burnout’ video?
Doing a drip torch operation under those conditions you could easily do it a fast walk or even a sliw jog
Thanks Rocksteady–I had not known that you could do a fast walk or even a slow jog–wow that says they could have done a two mile stretch in anywhere from about 40 minutes to less than thirty.
With Joy attending so much schooling on wild fires I have begun to realize much of the technical side necessary in doing things like the burn out at the Shrine. I wonder would they use only drip torches or would they also cast things like flares as they torched? What about the wind–that video had the trees whipping so you knew it was up there above 20 mph. What would wind like that have to do with a burn out. Would it be more difficult to get it going or would it instead help the process?
After I see how much education goes into the fire fighting profession, I wonder how come I had the good sense to get into a non-vegetative area and escape a fire I knew that was for sure going to change direction–I felt that change when I topped the Weavers–one of the good reasons to go back and drag Joy out of the area. We definitely had very little time span to escape even from the two track since it came up that canyon I believe even faster than 11 mph as the experts reported.
Looking back I think what educated me was watching that fire eat its way toward Peeples Valley when I had Joy time it going up about a half mile to a mile of manzanita on a sloping hillside. Not much wind at all in that direction, but 14 minutes was much faster than you could get yourself through the tangled manzanita that it was eating. It took us about an hour a mile in that tangled mess to get through so anyone caught in there was going to go down. Well you can imagine several deer and javalina and other small animals succumbed to the fire. Joy has many photos of animals seriously burned that did escape–and remember the incident of a local illegally shooting a burned Javelina because he felt it was suffering too much. I don’t know if he made steaks later, but he should have.
On the other hand I am glad someone did not put me out of my misery when I was shot though the back with three broken ribs, a punctured lung and a shattered clavicle. Instead I woke up several days later heavily sedated and here today –maybe the shooting cleared some of that retardant out of my lung–I seem to breath better than before the shooting. I have not recovered all of the use of my right arm yet but was able to chain saw myself some wood and even split it with an 8 pound mall, although carefully.
At one time I was an avid hunter–survival involved, but I never saw the joy in killing animals or the need for trophies. I still rabbit hunt for the dogs but nothing is wasted and you know those dogs would kill over their piece of rabbit. They change from nice guys to ferocious animals when it comes to another dog messing with their share. So I think I will go out today and do a small hunt–the mama dog I was given birth to 8 pups and she doesn’t like regular dog food –even the expensive kind. What the hell do they put in it that dogs avoid it so, except for the last resort to keep alive? I do make it more palatable for them by mixing in a can of Beef. bacon, and cheese flavor Pedigree dog food with the dry. If they don’t like it, I doubt I would.
Joy is excellent on those google maps so likely can walk right to the spot with the map. My download and upload rate is very slow since using my phone as a hot spot. They give you a very slow rate and even to get the map downloaded takes several minutes here.
About the post describing the 6 hour hike to where we met Marsh–we were not at the fire edge at that point–it was about another 30 minutes to get to that point. And it might have been more like 3 miles as the crow flies from the point we started hiking at Glen Isla. Still that three miles if it were along a highway would amount to only an hour. I might add the slowest part of the journey was in the area the men deployed and across that bowl from Helms on up to where we met Marsh.
It was no wonder Willis said regular people would not be able to transverse the canyon where GMHS were caught and died. Willis did not count us as regular people since we did cross that area, albeit with difficulty — but no more difficult than it would be for GMHS loaded down with equipment, packs and hot suits. So they were caught in a no win situation and had they done the doce fire then they would have known how difficult it is to get through tangled up manzanita, catclaw, and cactus. I do not see any advantage –even a disadvantage to have chain saws since it would take longer to cut through than work your way through the brush. The saws and turkey roasting blankets caused them a false sense of security so they cut out and packed more fuel about themselves–a greater disaster. But either way they were gonners–yet had they used their heads they would have positioned themselves close to the boulder field–and even where they were only 70 yards to a safe escape zone in the boulders. I do estimate from where they were they would have escaped to the boulders had they not taken time to cut out about themselves.
Marsh or someone said nothing until the fire was upon them, yet they certainly had to see it coming from where they were since the fire was below them and to the NE unless there was also a burn coming from the Shrine area. That is only known if the facts come out about that burn and its timing–as Gary said doubtful–but then we have not information as to the time. One thing about wild fires and 45 mph winds–they do not move like hikers–they move like a crow and even skip ahead in winds like that–straight line, fast and skipping.
We do see the faulty way this fire and the fire deaths were investigated. Joy and I were very experienced mountain hikers and in shape to do those type hikes. So the time we took light loaded as we were, you know must have at least equaled the time it would have taken for those men to do it loaded with equipment as they were. Those Pulaski’s won’t get you through the brush and they were going in the hottest part of the day–around 4 in Arizona is a burner. We went through in the cooler hours, although at 9:30 it was already up near 100F.
If any kind of god was having anything to do with this incident it would be seeing if the GMHS wanted to play Russian Roulette–which they did and lost. I certainly believe they knew it–or at least Marsh and Steed would have known because they lived among the Manzanita–Prescott is surrounded by miles and miles of the stuff and it was the main substance of the Doce fire they had earlier fought.
I did get no answer on how a Juniper tree could live thousands of years by itself and without being saved by any human group–well maybe the Indians hung around it and kept saving it before the white man came along. They had to catch hundreds of wild fires over those thousands of years. I am more inclined to think that was another promotional feat–kind of like the award giving for Ben Palm saving Yarnell–that never happened but they made it look that way, but even worse was the award giving after the Yarnell Fire that killed the GMHS crew. People go at all lengths to make themselves look good before the public. But the truth would have been a much better antidote to bad wild fire management. These opinions are my own and may not reflect the opinions of the FS, wild land fire fighter crews involved, and the general public that I opine has been rather craftily fooled.
Happy New Year to Joy and the rest of the fire fighting community. I am looking forward to midnight and the beginning of 2019. Perhaps the 20 crew and the 19 is an omen that the Yarnell mystery will finally come to fruition if numerology means anything. One of our greatest geniuses, Tesla always thought it did and would not live in any address that was not a multiple of 3. He liked to walk three times around his building before entering. Some say carry the number 8 in your wallet and it will increase. Well there were 12 apostles, and generally we have 12 jurors for judging offenses. Tesla by the way was the actual inventor of radio but Marconi took credit even after using Tesla patents. Tesla lost financing for his system to create free electrical power for everyone. Financiers expect dollars from their investments–not too many that want to give away bundles of money–the Bill Gates types that are overloaded with cash and wish to find ways to benefit those in need and society in general. If you watch American Greed on TV you see that the Greedy play upon the greedy and elderly as well. There are plenty hucksters that use religion and religious people as their source of booty–usually through pyramid schemes they say God is going to benefit the contributor with great blessings. Old Jesus and his apostles were quite different–Paul if you read his accounts left a wealthy situation to become more or less a homeless type–suffered all sorts of beatings and deprivations. His story and the other apostles were quite different from the diamond studded preachers that collect big money from the parishioners. Many of those contributors donate hoping they will get a good shot at “heaven” and live the life of poverty while their preachers live it up with “Gods” blessings. For the new year I hope you are not fooled by them–support your Priest who has taken a vow of poverty–he is closer to God than all the god damned lying preachers that are found left on the plane alone when the ressurection occurs–if and when it does. I want some old Irish God or Goddes flying the plane when I am on it–he/she will make sure the thing is structurally sound and avoid those bumpy rides that people use puke bags on. Also make sure the plane has plenty of fuel–too many crashes where the plane is low fuel to save money or because some idiot forgot to fuel the thin. So don’t be fooled by what is said–instead investigate as we have seen done on the Yarnell disaster.
By the way, my son Mark the RN did purchase a Tesla–he seems to be tickled pink with that black sleek dynamo. It was nothing to see that speedometer at 118 mph and there was more to go if I had not told him to get back down to 75–the limit on I-10. It was easy to get there and smooth as well. We do need an autobahn to go along with these new cars–some of these electric Tesla’s off the line will challenge any hemi out there and are beating up the hottest dragsters. They do it quietly as well–no noise pollution there. I had always known of electric power vehicles from the motors we used underground. Mortor is the term for the small train engines used to transport men and ore and muck. Not all mines used them–for instance United Nuclear had drifts that were 15 foot to the back (ceiling). In there they used diesel powered equipment–Three wheeled Young Buggies–single wheel in the back so you turned left to go right. First time I drove one of those things was in a Zinc mine at Mt. Hope, Nevada. I took out a string of timbers with that beast–I never did get good at one of those things, but then a miner did not usually drive one of those anyway. We had a jack leg (jack hammer attached to an air leg). Believe me you could not drill up without the air leg and in the Church Rock United Nuclear Mine you had to climb a ladder with that machine to get your back holes in. The back holes are the top drill holes. Something few knew was that Union Carbide also had a huge screw machine that men would operate where it was something like you see in the movies boring holes though the sandstone. Generally miners could outdo footage that thing did because it was broke down so often. I am certain the miners running it were breathing plenty of diesel smoke. Underground they had scrubbers to clean the smoke but I never saw them working right–you got to breathe the diesel smoke whether you liked it or not. These days I can not drive behind anything putting out diesel smoke–I absolutely have to pass or pull over since I get the sensation I am suffocating and the smell is atrocious.
Anyhow I am certain some of the wild land fire fighters will want to try underground mining and I thought it nice to give you a little about it. I do consider myself fairly expert even in the old type mining. My Dad never knew about jack legs and all his work was by hand steeling. There he used an 8 pound single jack hammer to drive his drill steel through hard rock. A little douse of water once the hole was started and a muck stick to pull out the mud. He had a good rhythm–maybe from his banjo picking abilities–so that you could hear that steel sing for a mile down the canyon. It was strike, turn and so forth until the mud was thick enough to remove. His final steel was a four footer so rounds were four foot. While the dust and powder smoke were settling after a blast we were cooking and eating, then he took time to sharpen and temper the steel on a hand forge. Slow according to standards using a Jack Leg but he was a patient man and I saw some very deep shafts and drifts he had developed.
So anyway, Ted Gilligan, my son wanted to become a miner and asked me to train him. His mom got wind of it and came down hard on me saying that she did not want her son doing that dirty dangerous type work. Well you know how a woman can throw a chink in someone’s plans–and she did. So Ted got together ten grand and went to diving school near Seattle. He had dived in the Navy so he must have taken a liking to it. He learned underwater welding–he already was a certified welder. But at first he was diving 100-150 foot for clams or something of the order. He finally landed the underwater welding job on one of the Houston off Shore Oil rigs. He had said the clam people were risking his life and health by bringing him up too quick–You can get the bends if certain procedures are not met to allow the accumulated nitrogen to dissipate over intervals. Ted was no dummy and knew what procedures should be done but those fishermen were in a hurry to make bucks and took those risks with their divers that should not have been taken. I was past 45 at the time but had thought to do that work myself until I learned I was above the age they would hire a diver. But you see, it wound up being a careless boss that killed Ted. Ted got wound up in a huge boat winch because the shut off valve was faulty–something the bosses knew but failed to replace. A young man will go ahead and work in a dangerous situation and the bosses did not want to take the time to replace that valve. It tore his arm loose from his body and all the nerves were disconnected so the arm atrophied–had no feeling there and had to learn to use his left to do everything–something I was doing for two months–still to some degree. I know the feeling and pain from this shattered clavicle and trying to use the right arm. Fortunately in my case the arm is coming back–I am getting some decent motion now–even able to hold up a chain saw.
If you like danger where plenty of money is paid and the assholes that do not want to do the work but be honchos–then underwater welding and deep sea diving would be the card. I might have chosen it over mining but mining was in my blood. I know Ted’s income was above $100,000 for a 9 month stint as a beginner. Nowadays it would be much more and miners at the Gold Mine near Oatman, AZ were making about 50,000 per year some ten years ago.
Ted never learned to swim worth a damn but knew how to float from the Naval training. He said you don’t need to swim as a diver–you only need to know how to sink.
Well it does little good to swim among the sharks unless you are one. So try to remain in good straits for the new year–my resolution–stay alive for another year and if that happens, repeat the resolution for the next year.
Let this be a special New Year and wild fire fighting to all–Blessing from the Irish Gods and Goddesses and your own gods, Gods, Jesus, Brahma, Confucius, Buddha or whatever entity fits your mind and budget.
Joy wrote, “Have you ever noticed when any type of key points make it to IM then Gary or Wttkt fill the pages with long drawn out comments (almost seems like they had the post saved ready for times like such) so the key points are lost in the weeds”
Your words cut like a 🔪 and sting like a 🐝
And no, I have never noticed that because I don’t save anything to post except for those things that suit my own purposes, to wit; I get distracted and I sometimes delay in posting comments simply because I haven’t finished them, and then when I go to finish them, I can’t remember the point I was originally trying to make. And as a matter of fact, I still sitting on some comments right now, but I can’t remember where I filed them, in addition to my Last Chapter.
But please keep in mind, that my words are like verbal 💎 that I share with you because I truly love and respect you so much…little Miss Collura! Wait….is that title patronizing, demeaning, insulting and misogynistic? I certainly hope so because that is the way I intended it.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I just stopped by to wish everyone who either participates or reads this IM blog a very Merry Christmas 🎄🎁 and a Happy New Year 🥳
You never patronize me
I was the one being facetious
My apologies to you both
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Gary…
No political year in review for 2018?
Last year we picked on RTS
Guess it was my turn this year
When I read your post it was like the adult voices in Charlie Brown Christmas episode
be
wa wa wa. wa wa wa
https://youtu.be/U6Ewyb6AtWY
ony would be proud…my big girl panties are on
Tony not ony
Again, your words…cut like a 🔪 and sting like a 🐝!
And no…no more political commentary for me because it’s not funny any more.
And why not pick on you? You’re a girl and you can’t fight back…can you?
Gary,
“You’re a girl and you can’t fight back…can you?” Are you kidding me?
Looks like she is doing a pretty good job and holding her own just fine
Et tu, Brute?
Wait…an ex hotshot quoting William Shakespeare in Latin?
Now that…is a fuckin’ mike drop!
💋 ✌️
Okay…since I claimed ex hotshot pride on this one, I’m going to make try to get it right before RTS calls me out on it, because you know…he is a 🍆 👴🏻 and a ❄️! Sad. (And BOOM💥 goes the dynamite, with a double emoji insult)
Wait…an ex hotshot quoting Julius Caesar in William Shakespeare’s tragedy, “Julius Caesar” from Act III, scene 1…in Latin?
Now that…is a fuckin’ 🎤drop! 💋 ✌🏻
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and may Jesus and the Irish Goddesses and Gods make you a prosperous and safe new year for you and yours. I was given a German Shephard/ Husky mix dog I have named Lady. She is the Christmas Dog since I did not know she was to give birth to eight little fellows–some black like her and some white with spots.
What mix they are is unknown-but it put me to fixing them a warm dog house and now I have plenty of Christmas puppies to attend to.
Yes that is a simple short walk or drive right up to that wall/foundation thing—and by know Joy likely knows, maybe even dined with the drip torch persons. Well it is where peoples’s names can not be given out publicly else you jeopardize their jobs–they have families, responsibilities and want to keep their jobs in most instances. But over time some will
There is a big question mark about the burn out that obviously the Drip Torch Men were doing. It becomes even a bigger question when the chief of Peeples Valley made denials that he even had a crew in the area and has done every possible thing to hide any of his records regarding his crew’s work on the Yarnell Fire. But Joy has uncovered the fact that other crews were also in the Yarnell area June 30, 2018. Some have already talked about their role there–but it is understandable that she is refraining from naming people–who wants to harm a persons occupation? And it is even better that they come forward on their own to tell the truth of what went down in the Shrine Area. We as public will have to be patient until the truth comes out.
Even if a burn out is proven and time lines were to show that the Shrine burn might have caught the GMHS crew, no blame whatsoever could be laid to those crews–whoever was running the show and the immediate commanders demanding or suggesting comfort level shit to entice Marsh to be another paper tiger saving Juniper trees in a dream land where hundreds of wild fires over thousands of years did not burn that tree and now to be touted and awarded a get out of jail free card by killing his men doing an impossible mission–that is saving Yarnell from a raging wild fire exploding in a 45mile an hour wind and releasing the energy of the Atomic Heroshima Bomb Award–We tried but we died award.
The hype goes on and on concerning the Yarnell fire and we wonder why so many people are fooled by the Command Posts. The devil looks good because he knows how to play the game and present before the public–and it is never the truth when it comes to the Yarnell Incident. More that 100 Wild Fire Experts will tell it as it was and do tell it here on Investigative Media–Yet the movies and book writers rather listen to people like Amanda Marsh and friends — especially those that had command posts and are up in the big G categories. They have reputations to maintain–a disaster that was the worlds worst boondoggle at fire fighting–probably ever– can not be laid at their feet if their efforts can prevent.
So what do you do when you screwed up like was done at Yarnell during the Yarnell Killer Fire? You hand out awards and make Marsh, Steed, and Superiors look like saints. Hand out awards and say Marsh was just going to take his men and those Pulaski’s and dig out around Yarnell to save structures. Well they already knew that was Malarkey and impossible but seems like the publ;ic believed–they are so easily duped but get angry when they find they were.
Then was the idea that God, the Devil or any other entity had anything to do with this fire. Maybe Thor struck that mountain with his thunder and lightening–but it was Yanell and Peeples Valley fire departments that failed to respond immediately. These folks knew full well the danger of that fire getting into the manzanita down below and had ample time to easily contain that strike–they get paid to protect you–so they had put up signs of extreme fire danger–anyone caught smoking or having a camp fire in the area would get a good reprimand and likely a ticket and fire for endangering the town. The state had even mapped out a half section in the Half Section including the death canyon where it was assigned the most extreme possible danger for a wild fire. That document had been made June 16, 2013, posted on internet and then disappeared as had the video of the two drip torch people in the Shrine area on June 30, 2013. There was urgent reason to contain anything from a smoker to a campfire to especially a lightening strike on the mountain with easy access considering a trail ran right to it withing 50 yards of the strike. An ATV 4×4 could have ran right to it and a couple good men with shovels should have had no problem containing it while it was in the boulders atop the Weavers.
When Joy and I were atop the Weavers on June 30, 2013 I suggested that they really meant to burn out that Manzanita–It was obvious to me at the time that there was not really concerted effort to stop the fire. I believed a controlled burn was planned but Thor had sent that bolt of lightening a little early–but he screwed up the plan a bit–yet it was decided to let nature and Thor take the course. Burn baby burn and it did.
It is imperative that the citizens take a look at this situation and how preventive measures would have prevented the death and destruction that took place–all needlessly when proper and quick action were in order. Maybe it will be a lesson learned for the Yarnellites as the manzanita will grow back quickly and thickly since it has been amply fertilized by hundreds of thousands of gallons of top grade fertilizer. If your local fire department does not do its job, your citizen group better hop to it. I can tell you it is can be done–I use to help my Dad do that very thing–clean out around burning trees hit by lightening so the fire did not spread–he and I did not have one bit of fire education or training but we prevented the spread of those fires we attended to.
Perhaps I should explain why Dad would want to take immediate action to contain lightening strikes. We were living an a 12×12 army surplus tent to which he had constructed a board floor. He had a gold prospect and another he was driving a drift into in the immediate area. Any wild fire in that area would have taken out his tent house and driven him out of the area for some time. Sawmill Canyon in the Big Burro Mountains near Silver City is a very wild fire hazard area and was especially right in the area we were camped. We did not have a city to worry about with 650 residents–but you can bet if Dad were there at Yarnell he would have been onto that fire like a bee on honey flowers. Or maybe not–I believed like most–the local fire fighters would take care of an eminent danger and pronto.
Reply to Charlie post on December 14, 2018 at 5:41 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> WTKTT Tried to post earlier so will try again–Yes the rock wall
>> is about 100 yards above the Shrine along where pavement turns
>> to dirt. It is actually not a rock wall but part of a foundation
>> where a building stood in years past. From the foundation up the
>> dirt road farther about 50 to 100 yards (judgment off video we saw)
>> was where they were using the drip torches.
>>
>> On December 14, 2018 at 10:22 pm, Charlie also said…
>>
>> If I were there I could step off the distance from the Shrine Parking
>> Lot to the rock foundation. It would be close to a hundred yards
>> from that lot so that if you could see the parking lot on satellite
>> then you would look along the dirt road to the west side for the
>> rock foundation. I termed it wall sometimes because it was about
>> two feet above ground on the side facing the road but it was actually
>> a foundation of an old dwelling. It the video it stood out as the
>> marker we used to identify where we could locate the location of
>> the zip torches being used. It has been several years now since
>> I have been to that Shrine area–so going by memory on distance
>> but that should not be far off.
>>
>> I do not know if google map can walk you to the wall.
Yes. It can… and I see exactly what you are talking about now.
Here are the GPS coordinates for the spot that is 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends…
Decimal Latitude: 34.227957
Decimal Longitude: -112.753579
Click the following link and RED BALLOON will be marking that exact spot ( with satellite view )…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'40.7%22N+112%C2%B045'12.9%22W/@34.2278194,-112.7534933,143m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.227957!4d-112.753579
In the lower right corner is the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph.
In the upper right corner is that ‘fork in the road’ with gated entrance to the Shrine Road Youth camp and the continuation of the dirt part of Shrine Road out to the west.
In-between is that RED BALLOON that marks the spot that is exactly 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road ends and the dirt part begins, just at the west end of the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot.
If you were standing at that 100 yard mark ( the RED BALLOON ) and looking to the left ( the west side of Shrine Road ), then right in front of you is a rock wall and two foundations where there used to be structures.
According to the Yavapai County Assessor’s office, that parcel of land which contains that rock wall and used to contain the two structures is Yavapai County Parcel number 203-11-209.
It’s the WALTRAUD family property.
The ‘owners’ from 1995 to 2005 were listed as: GOFFENA GEO MICHAEL & WALTRAUD M JT
From 2006 to current ( 2018 ), the ‘owner name’ is: JOURDAN WALTRAUD M REVOCABLE LIV TRUST
Yavapai County Tax summary link for parcel 203-11-209
http://taxinquiry.yavapai.us/parcel/taxsummary?parcelNumber=203-11-109
That Tax summary page shows…
———————————————————————————–
Tax Summary for Yavapai County Parcel 203-11-109
Current Owner Name & Mailing Address
JOURDAN WALTRAUD M REVOCABLE LIV TRUST
834 PRESCOTT HEIGHTS DR
PRESCOTT, AZ 86301
Legal Description: YARNELL HGTS LOTS 42 43 44 DIV 2
————————————————————————————-
** SAME POINT WHERE FRISBY AND BROWN PAUSED BEFORE ‘BREAKING THROUGH’
As it turns out… that RED BALLOON on the Google map above, 100 yards from where the Shrine Road pavement ends, is also the exact same point where Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown stopped, in their Polaris Ranger, before deciding to ‘break through’ to keep heading west to look for the Granite Mountain Hotshots following the deployment.
Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd ( who was still filming all this ) were there with Frisby and Brown in their own ATVs at this same time.
They all ‘paused’ there for 6 minutes, from exactly 5:29 PM to 5:34 PM, before deciding to ‘break through’ and continue west looking for the GM Hotshots.
Aaron Hulburd filmed both of the structures at that property with the ‘rock-wall’ fully engulfed in flames at that time ( 5:30 PM ).
This was almost an hour after the deployment, but the structures were still fully engulfed in flames and hadn’t even collapsed yet. The propane tank was still venting, but now ‘cooling off’ and venting less even while they stood there filming it.
So whatever had set those 2 structures on fire at that exact location had to have been right at, or AFTER, the time of deployment. Any earlier than that and we wouldn’t still be seeing what we see in Aaron Hulburd’s 5:30 PM video taken at that location.
Correction for above…
That ‘fork in the road’ is in the upper LEFT corner of the satellite view, not the upper RIGHT.
Sentence above should have read like this…
“In the upper LEFT corner is that ‘fork in the road’ with gated entrance to the Shrine Road Youth camp and the continuation of the dirt part of Shrine Road out to the west.”
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'40.7%22N+112%C2%B045'12.9%22W/@34.2278194,-112.7534933,143m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.227957!4d-112.753579
So Sonny and Joy both said “rock wall”, which Sonny clarified to be an old rock foundation for a former home. So, IF they were doing a burnout before the deployment, and there was only a rock foundation in the video, how could there then be structures burning on those same foundations almost an hour AFTER the deployments??
That’s the 19 dollar question, isn’t it?
I suppose one theory would be that what was actually filmed in that mysterious video clip was some crew doing ‘mop up’ along Shrine road the NEXT DAY ( July 1, 2013 )… and using drip torches to basically just ‘clean up’ that area and prevent any flare ups.
There were any number of Hot Shot crews that showed up to work in Yarnell the day AFTER the tragedy. Mopping up on Shrine Road might have been one of the assignments.
** SKETCHES OF THE BURNED STRUCTURES
** ON SHRINE ROAD PARCEL 203-11-109
The Yavapai County Assessors office has no photos of the structures that we see engulfed in flames there on parcel 203-11-109… but they DO have ‘floorplan sketches’ that they used for property tax evaluation(s).
———————————————————————————–
Yavapai County Parcel 203-11-109
Parcel Physical Address: 16989 W Shrine Dr
Current Owner Name & Mailing Address
JOURDAN WALTRAUD M REVOCABLE LIV TRUST
834 PRESCOTT HEIGHTS DR
PRESCOTT, AZ 86301
Legal Description
YARNELL HGTS LOTS 42 43 44 DIV 2
Building Sketches (1)
2010 IMP 1 3-14-2011
Sketch ( floorplan only ) of the buildings on the property circa 3/14/2011…
https://gis.yavapai.us/docs/asr/apex//real/203/R000060709/2010_IMP_1_3-14-2011_203-11-109.jpg
———————————————————————————-
Thanks to Aaron Hulburd’s filming on June 30, 2013… we know EXACTLY when both of these structures on parcel 203-11-109 were destroyed.
They were fully engulfed in flames at exactly 5:30 PM ( but had still not fully collapsed ) almost an hour after the deployment on June 30, 2013.
The EXACT time is known is because Blue Ridge Hotshot Trueheart Brown was standing right there, with his GPS unit still recording exact times and location. Captain Brown’s GPS data from his recording ALL DAY on June 30, 2013 has been verified over and over again to be 100 percent accurate as to TIMESTAMPS and LOCATIONS.
I am travelling
Heading to my Neuropathy specialist
Try to post this week
Same as Norb
Hard to post via cell
I notified
Waltraud family to answer that.
Too hard to type
Wow, been trying to post f0r days. Hopefully this works. Several things to address
First happy belated birthday to Sonny. I am glad you survived y9ur dogs hunting .trip. I have said it before and I stand firm that I did see the video that has since disappeared . We did walk by the rock wall ( foundation) on my first visit to the site, and I remember that. In the video I remember two FF’s with drip torches – don’t remember helmet colors but yellow shirts and green pants (of course).
I totally respect all opinions on this site, but I will say based on my experience that structures burn well after the fire front has passed. Numerous times I have seen structures lost, not from the flaming front but from the residual low intensity residually fire as the responders are busy chasing the “dragon”, or the main fire front.
I have no facts to prove this is what happened on Shrine Rd., but I also have nothing to prove that this is not what happened.
When you saw this video clip… and ( apparently ) the same rock wall ( foundation ) there at 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends… do recall seeing ANY ‘structures’ at ( or near ) this ‘wall’?
Now that the location of this mysterious video has been VERIFIED… I guess the next step is to just try and figure out whether those structures at that location were actually THERE at the time the ‘mystery video’ was shot… or whether those 2 structures were ALREADY GONE.
That will go a long ways towards finally establishing WHEN this ‘mystery video’ was taken… and whether whatever was seen happening could have possibly played any role at all in what happened out in the box canyon.
Typo above. I left out the word “YOU”.
Sentence above should have read like this…
“When you saw this video clip… and ( apparently ) the same rock wall ( foundation ) there at 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends… do YOU recall seeing ANY ‘structures’ at ( or near ) this ‘wall’?”
Thanks Norb–It is great to hear from you–always welcome here if you get down this far as well–I have a place you can hook up water lights and sewer so you can spend plenty of time if you desire.
Your testimony is worth 5 of mine because t Fire work was your business for many years until you retired and I know you bossed two crews of wild land fire fighters, so anyone can appreciate your expertise on these fire matters.
It is quite strange so many of the people that contribute to this site were never consulted during the investigation. For example, we had to hike Dr. Ted because the FS, Sheriff Dept, the Yarnell Fire Department all refused–yet out of respect a man that was a `15 year smoke jumper, one of the nations top fire death investigators-a man that saved some lives on the line and with his Doctorate in Psychology– That man would be the absolutely respected and taken on a hike to the area so he could make an evaluation. And that goes for Norb and any other of the heroes we hiked that could not get an audience with the comrades in the area. Well their mistake since those types of missed opportunities will come back to haunt them.
Yes surviving a point blank hit with a 12 guage that broke three ribs, punctured my right lung and shattered my clavicle was an ordeal –The lead shot is scatter throughout my chest area. They put 1% arsenic in lead shot so it will come out round–but then I mined arsenopyrite and gold in that Pine Valley Gold mine for two years–so a little more arsenic is not welcome–two poisons lead and arsenic–no wonder rabbits fall dead so quickly.
Maybe the lead will encapsulate–but it has been known to travel about the body–Joy was counting shot and said she lost count at about two hundred in the xray photo. But you know what, I am getting myself back together–will go hunting rabbits–but have to lay off the Shot gun because of recoil. I did shoot a 22 and that was OK so the boys (my dogs) will be getting a rabbit meal now and again after all.
Norb,
“I totally respect all opinions on this site, but I will say based on my experience that structures burn well after the fire front has passed. Numerous times I have seen structures lost, not from the flaming front but from the residual low intensity residually fire as the responders are busy chasing the “dragon”, or the main fire front.”
Yes, this often how structures burn in the wildland urban interface. One firefighting tactic taught in Operations in the Wildland Urban Interface course S-215, is called “Fire Front Following.”
Excellent point concerning the potential timing issues via ground ignition timelines as related to structures becoming involved and burning to the ground.
NO mop up situation–the next day that area was all burned out. Would not make sense that they would be doing a burn our the next day.
Yes I think we said rock wall but in fact it was not a wall but a part of the foundation to a previous structure–there was never a structure on that foundation even before the burn out–the structure had been removed many years before. That foundation looks like a rock wall because they built up a wall like structure on one side to account for the slope in the land there. You nearly have to go to the foundation to understand why we would use the term wall–it was actually as I remember maybe a foot and half to two feet high. If Joy gets up there she can maybe take a photo of it so you see what we are talking about. I suspect it had a wooden or log cabin above ground there at one time–likely 50 years or more ago.
In the video it looks like part of a rock wall from the side view they were using–exactly as you would see it when you walk by it.
So the new Year is soon to be here. The FS and others will come out with the truth and nothing but the truth in the new Year–(April 1, 2019). The next year has 20–the number in the crew and 19 the number that died. Something will give in this coming year.
Yes there are some strange happenings in Arizona. Before I met Joy, I told her about the UFO situation near Dolan Springs. At that time I had ten acres and lived out of town some 3 and a half miles–so no street lights–there are none in Dolan Springs any way–the town consists of a bar, grocery store, laundry and about 100 residents. Don’t blink your eyes as you drive through else you don’t see the town.
But about the UFO situation–and many there had seen the, but Joy came along and photographed a few. One had green lasers shooting out of it and another she enlarged the photo so then we could see smaller craft surrounding the central round object. I had witnessed some extremely high speed objects transverse the complete sky from one side of the earth to the other in seconds, then return in the opposite direction a few seconds later to do the same act. What those things were I do not know but always suspected they were government experiments of highly secretive nature. But then it may be the Irish Gods and Goddesses screwing around up there in their personal vehicles.
One thing you read about are these cattle mutations. Pieces of hide are cut away with laser precision. Well I had a pit bull out there named Leroy. Leroy was a murderous dog–he would kill my other dogs one at a time while I was away in town. I would return and Leroy would act like an angel smiling at me but bloody as all hell and guilty with –first a dead blue healer I had and then another mix breed.
He did allow a female dog to live, his pleasure was killing the males. But one day I came home and under his neck and on the front part of his torso was a piece of hide missing. It was the size of a silver dollar and as perfectly circular exposing the bare meat below where the hide had been That incident baffled me plenty and I never had an explanation of how that could be done. Leroy did not seem to be bothered by it and in time it healed into a round scar. But it made me think of the cattle mutations that had no reasonable explanation.
So today I was in Las Cruces enjoying a Big Breakfast at MacDonalds if you can do that and noticed an Albuquerque Journal that had been left behind. There was an article about Father Chavez, a Catholic Priest who had been helping police in the investigations of other Priests involved in child molesting. He had been doing this at the Santa Fe Diocese for some 20 years but had broken a vow of silence he had signed to do these helps to the police to find and prosecuted offenders. He also gave me and I am sure some others some confidence in the Church to know that there are people in there doing the right thing despite the Chruch’s attempts to keep these offenses hidden. He said that when trying to locate an offender people were told that Priest had died some time ago. He in fact knew the man was alive and had been moved, yet the church was trying to protect its assets. Well this man is a hero in my book–risking a possibility of ex-communication–but still in good conscience doing the right thing. You can bet some of the higher ups–Bishoprics and such are gritting their teeth at his work–but maybe God, Jesus and Mary are happy to see that someone is on the up and up. I know there are many good priests in the church–yet they too have had their mouths sealed with superglue.
What the article also did was to remind me that among all the good people that fought the Yarnell Fire, there are a few good men that will eventually come forward with more of their testimony to help us get past the white wash. Their good deed will, like Father Chavez, be a good work–for the truth can not and will not be hidden forever.
Still I realize the President wants 4.9 billion laid aside for Fire Fighting money for the people in that industry. This year it is costing about 3 billion–a record year for cost of fighting wild fires. So there is big money to be laid out and yes a Congressional Investigation is proper–but the fellows spending the big money are friends of people in high places. So the motion against big money may be slower than some mesquite honey I had allowed to damn near crystallize. I had to set it next to my wood stove and allow it to feel the heat long enough that it is now back to normal.
Thanks to WTKTT–my ancestors came out of Dublin–Irish Catholic–not a bad religion at all–Ted, my son was buried a Catholic with a Priest officiating. Religion is good and we need a few with pipe lines to gods. WTKTT has shown the map and how far they could go back to start the burn that was going on and was ending at the Shrine. Someone has already estimated the time it would take to get to that location from where they sensibly should have started a burn. I have no idea of the time but I am certain one of the fellows that was in the video would know exactly when and where they started the burn out. Maybe he will read the article about the Priest and do the right thing? I won’t hold my breath even in the smoke and mirrors. Thank you WTKTT–you have been great at getting us to look at the details.
As I remeber there is only one foundation there and not two so are we looking at a different location. That is a small foundation as well and the structure that was there had been long gone years before. Joy and I had walked by that foundation several times before the fire and nothing was there except the foundation. Perhaps Joy will chime in on this since she would know what you have posted WTKTT, and whether that is the same rock foundation (wall Like) that we are identifying.
She is in the area I am not. If I were I would go there and photograph the foundation so you could get a positive take on it.
About the UFO, Leroy event–Joy also took a picture that had an apparition in it that we could not see but appeared in the photo. Maybe she posted that on her website–another strange thing. Maybe Willis was right–some god got a hold on Marsh and marched him and his men to their deaths and according to God’s will–they had other things to do in heaven. I hardly believe it but considering some of the things I have seen it could cause some to scratch their heads bald.
Sonny
I am committed to Mrs Robinson for the Safety Summit project first
Then. I will come here
Take your time Joy–do the project when you feel up to it. The best job is done when you want to do it–not when you are pressed but at your leisure and pleasure.
I can’t tell anything by that map–that foundation is on the left or west side of the dirt road — that red marker is on the east? I think what you were looking at as far as the walls you showed were structures that burned but his is a small foundation from an old building. Well it will be there and someone will get a photo–you can’t miss it if you walk up the road. I still have property over that way so may get back there someday to get a photo of that foundation and then you will understand how it could be called a rock wall yet it is really part of a foundation. From that point up the dirt road a ways would be the drip torch area and they were on the same side as the foundation in the video. The foundation stood out as a reference point.
If there were structures there burning almost an hour after the burn out that would go along with the sense that there was a burn out there. That main fire as we saw it was several miles to the north of the Shrine area. It turned back but was in a position to go west of the Shrine area in a wind reversal–why Donut was almost killed. If a burn out were going in the Shrine area and structures were burning there an hour later, if you can determine when the structures started burning then you can figure about when they were doing the drip torching there in that area.
I am sorry I can not back down on seeing that video and I do believe it was on the very evening and was part of a later video that was filmed on the death day. I say this because the wind was up just as in the extended videos. I know what I saw and would not remember except we took special interest to locate the rock wall /foundation thing to prove the location. Joy has taken much time and effort–her memory and honesty impeccable and especially I can say in this matter, the facts have been hidden–who did the burn out –I believed it likely was Peeples Valley Fire Dept. but that was because they hid their information so much and denied even being in the area despite proof by the later video of their truck in there. Then Joy has posted another fire department in there had a look out at the Grotto next the Shrine. What do you make of this–I can tell you–If Joy has interviewed and seen actual evidence of the burn out despite the redaction of the actual drip torching–then it only adds to evidence there was a burn out there. I do not have the time it started but certainly Joy and others do know–Yet they will not reveal something that needs to be said by the actual participants. Joy nor I will jeopardize someones occupation and livelihood. However, it goes without saying that they were not lighting bushes up for the fun of it.
** THE AARON HULBURD VIDEOS TAKEN BETWEEN 5:29 PM and 5:34 PM
Prescott National Forest ( PNF ) employee Aaron Hulburd actually shot THREE videos during that 5:29 PM to 5:34 PM timeframe while they were all ‘stopped’ there by that ‘rock wall’ 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road ends and the dirt part begins.
Those three videos have the filenames…
M2U00270.MP4 – Length: 44 seconds
The PNF FFs and Frisby and Brown are ‘pulling up’ to where they will stop on Shrine road there near the ‘rock wall’ and two burning structures.
M2U00271.MP4 – Length: 59 seconds
The PNF FFs and Frisby and Brown have just ‘stopped’ there at that point 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road ends. Good closeup of the still-burning structures at the start of this video.
M2U00272.MP4 – Length: 2 minutes and 5 seconds.
The video where the PNF FFs are still with Frisby and Brown stopped near trying to figure out what to do next. Aaron Hulburd continues filming the structures that are fully engulfed in flame there on parcel 203-11-109. At + 1:18, Brian Frisby walks over towards the burninig structures to evaluate them. The propane tank continues to vent, but not as bad as earlier.
And all three of these Aaron Hulburd videos are all still available on this public page at Arizona Forestry…
https://dffm.az.gov/New-Video-Clips
Just to make it easier… what follows are three DIRECT links to the three Aaro Hulburd videos mentioned above that he shot in the 5:29 PM to 5:34 PM timeframe 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends.
M2U00270.MP4 – Length: 44 seconds
The PNF FFs and Frisby and Brown are ‘pulling up’ to where they will stop on Shrine road there near the ‘rock wall’ and two burning structures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFSrLmTyNo8&feature=youtu.be
M2U00271.MP4 – Length: 59 seconds
The PNF FFs and Frisby and Brown have just ‘stopped’ there at that point 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road ends. Good closeup of the still-burning structures at the start of this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04MbkaiMTQk&feature=youtu.be
M2U00272.MP4 – Length: 2 minutes and 5 seconds.
The video where the PNF FFs are still with Frisby and Brown stopped near trying to figure out what to do next. Aaron Hulburd continues filming the structures that are fully engulfed in flame there on parcel 203-11-109. At + 1:18, Brian Frisby walks over towards the burning structures to evaluate them. The propane tank continues to vent, but not as bad as earlier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQmDS908QnA&feature=youtu.be
At the time they were drip torching no vehicles as I remember for sure not next to the rock wall foundation thing.
Reply to Charlie post on December 20, 2018 at 11:19 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> At the time they were drip torching no vehicles as I remember
>> for sure not next to the rock wall foundation thing.
Copy that.
Take a look at the FIRST THREE pictures in the following ‘slideshow’…
https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k
Are those FIRST THREE photos actually pictures of the “rock wall foundation thing” you saw in the original ‘burnout’ video?
Sonny and World-
In the beginning I never believed the “burnout discussion” based on this video
( https://youtu.be/C65FcpAi_-4 ) at marker 8:58/18:48 (I see no smoke or fire) yet over time seeing other areas on the ground I had shelved the data over the years yet I am firm and I will not waiver on this – otherwise I would not have made a blog and placed disclaimers and began to unravel the documents to push those who do know to talk and if they do not eventually enough documents will be public but some fail to comprehend I never saved the data in a normal way and until you see it my data is 123 or “ab” so what is 123 or “ab” so I literally have to look at the document and then I re-label this time as I go through but I will get side tracked because I was on the Paul Morin topic and it vanished so I went to looking for the data again and I find YCSO radio net stuff then I save it then I accidentally moved it to an area I forgot so I am just like I will get to it when I do but there is NO CTRL F in this situation— it really is a nightmare so until the day I pass on I believe Craig when he tells me his brother was there by the Sesame to Shrine Corridor who is a FF and who the world will be shocked later to find out how many engines were never even reported to be there in any reports but they were for sure there. Yeah, I am positively sure I won’t stop pushing the data forward. The world does not realize as well I do not keep the data on me so I have to get to my FOIA storage and so it is not so easy as one thinks…it is not readily there 24/7 for me because I do protect it because I was told one time some areas I can never get again in Prescott due to a building fire destroyed all the records so yeah I do not even make it easy for myself to access never the less the world but I promise every chance able I am working on the next post or the next conference or the next Academy training. Yet I have a really good feeling someone is about to come to the front…and all I have to say is thank you…
Good to hear Joy is back from North Carolina safe and sound. Yes reviewing the situation the burn would have started some two miles back from the Shrine Area. (How long does it take to walk with drip torches and burn bushes at the same time on a two mile back burn?) No I do not think the men knew that the GMHS crew had left the black and were not far and uphill from their location. Early on I had realized there was a burn going on there above the Shrine once Joy directed me to the video with men using drip torches in that area. With the winds going directly uphill to the Death Basin it certainly could be a factor in the deaths of the GMHS crew.
When you can not get information and if there is much is redacted then one wonders if the truth will ever come out. We know they were burning in that area but Peeples Valley Chief said he was no where around that day, that they had no records of what they did during the fire, then that the State and FS had the records and so forth. Talk about evasion–and I did wonder what there was to hide. The record would say whether those men were Peeples Valley firemen or not and what time they started the burn and where they started it. Obviously it was not right there near the Shrine that this burn was started–So we estimate that it likely was two miles back in from the Shrine area. Talk about a dense canyon there–it had to go like gangbusters and with the winds at high velocity would have covered a mile and a half in minutes. Referring to what I have read, every ten degrees of slope doubles the fire velocity –one reason you do not want to get caught uphill from an advancing fire. Also a canyon acts as a chimney so that wind is funneled and increased in velocity as well. The cards were really stacked heavily against the GMHS crew with all that facing them–then to get into an entanglement of bear wallow bushes–that is another deal–no look out and not escape plan–did not trust the boulders, instead took the time to cut out in the middle of a fire that was releasing energy of a Heroshima type A bomb every 15 minutes. Did these men not know these things or are they just some slap happy people that have no clue. What was Marsh’s and Steeds training and awareness capacity when they were risking at terrible odds the lives of 17 young wild land fire fighters. Shoeffler, Honda and others pointed out the risk taking they had seen before as had others concerning Marsh. Seems like this man had no business being a wild land fire fighter boss. Perhaps he would have been a good man on the line–but to risk men like that and be known for it–who was responsible for allowing him to continue until he killed his crew?
Yes, Joy has mentioned there were others at the Shrine beside the Peeples Valley crew. So maybe more is to come and someone of those men will come forward with the facts about the burn.
But on second though–perhaps not. Too much flack if they talk and tell the truth.
Reply to Charlie post on December 16, 2018 at 10:40 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Yes reviewing the situation the burn would have started
>> some two miles back from the Shrine Area.
Two MILES?
Which direction do you mean by ‘back from the Shrine Area’?
Two miles due WEST of the ‘Shrine Area’ would put you on the top of the Weaver mountains, almost exactly at Granite Mountain’s ‘final rest spot’ where GM Hotshot Christopher Mackenzie shot all his final photos and videos.
Two miles due NORTH of the ‘Shrine Area’ would put you only about 1000 yards south of Hays Ranch Road, all the way up in Peeples Valley.
Two miles due SOUTH of the ‘Shrine Area’ would put you halfway down the mountain on Hwy 89 towards Congress.
Two miles due EAST of the ‘Shrine Area’ would put you… well… you know… way out in the boondock east of Yarnell.
Are you saying you believe the ‘burning’ seen in the video you saw was just the ‘tail end’ of some larger ( and more time consuming ) ‘burnout’ operation that started some distance ( back? ) from the Shrine Road Youth camp area?
Again… which ‘direction’ are you referring to?
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> With the winds going directly uphill to the Death Basin it
>> certainly could be a factor in the deaths of the GMHS crew.
It still all depend on WHEN any kind of ‘manual burnout’ took place.
All the Blue Ridge Hotshot photos and videos they took as they were ‘evacuating’ the Shrine Youth Camp area in the 4:27 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe show no ‘manual burnouts’ happening in that Shrine area. The fire was approaching fast from up over the ridge, but the Shrine road area itself, all the way from the Youth Camp back to the Shrine Road parking lot, was not ‘on fire’ at all ( yet ).
That was just 9 minutes before Jesse Steeds first totally-botched MAYDAY call from out at the deployment site.
Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were the last ones out of the Shrine Road Youth camp area… on purpose. They stayed behind to make sure ALL of the other firefighters who had been working back there had exited the area before they, themselves, drove their Polaris Ranger back east on the dirt part of Shrine road to the Shrine of St. Joseph’s parking lot.
Frisby and Brown pulled up to that parking lot to meet ( and speak with ) PNF firefighters Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd ( who was still filming all this ) at 4:37 PM.
There was still no ‘fire’ visible on either side of the Shrine Road, looking west from the Shrine of St. Joseph’s parking lot… and Frisby and Brown did not report having to drive through ( or by ) any ‘manual burnout’ as they exited from the Youth Camp circa 4:37 PM.
That was ( now ) just TWO minutes before Jesse Steed’s first totally-botched MAYDAY call would hit the radio at exactly 4:39 PM.
So if even just TWO minutes before the first botched MAYDAY call would be heard from the GM Hotshots there was still no evidence of any manual burnout(s) having been started in the ‘Shrine Road’ area… then it is not possible that any manual burnout that might have even been started AFTER that, in that Shrine area, could have possibly been any kind of “factor in the deaths of the GMHS crew.”
Now that the LOCATION of this mystery video has been VERIFIED… it’s really all about figuring out WHEN that video was shot when it comes to whether it could have possibly had anything to do with what happened out in the box canyon.
One thing about a winding road and up and down canyons–a mile as the crow flies can be two miles as you take the meandering way with boots on the ground. And as far as roads, drip torch fellows do not necessarily follow a road to do their burning. I have hiked enough on the Weavers to know that you will be dodging bushes, up and down revines, meandering washes and whatever other obstacles you will encounter to increase your distance factor.
Consider that when Joy and I started our assent to the top of the Weavers we started at about 3:30 am. We saw Marsh somewhere about 9:30 am. That is 6 hours of hiking through that terrain. I estimate we covered about two miles as the crow flies. Some of that terrain had us backtracking, some crawling on our bellies to get under foilage and some had us avoiding boulders, cactus and catclaw, as well as going around a ridge to get to our destination. So you see we could walk a strait line of a mile in 20 minutes or three miles of straight road in an hour. That gives you an idea of what those men were facing when they got into the green from the black and how time and distance to transverse an area can be an extreme variable.
I am working on my book tonight and taking a stroll down memory lane and I feel like oversharing some excerpts from my past hotshot life, which as you know is my happy place.
So…I have done my favorite thing and posted some of my photos to illustrate the latest story line and people I have been writing about, you know…because I can. I am also going to post a draft excerpt from my book that tells part of the Crossman Peak Fire story, which was an unusual example of s fire managed by CHAOS.
But…first here are my photos;
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
1. You can tell it was an Epic Hotshot Night because we returned to the scene of the crime to take a crew photo before we left to drive home to the Long Valley Ranger Station on the Mighty Coconino.
2. The crew is watching the resupply helicopter coming in to land on the saddle below them on the Ridge were we were settling in for the night after stopping our work for the day. You can see what the terrain was like in the background. Our Area. of Operations was hugggggge.
3. The slick is coming in to land.
4. Close up.
5. The helicopter flying away.
7. Same
8. Demo (Demolition) leading a squad sans the Squad Boss.
9. Demo jumped across a 4 or 5 foot wide chasm onto a rock pinnacle that had a drop of hundreds of feet on all sides for this hero shot in the Big Horn Krags up in Idaho.. And then he put his Pulaski on his shoulder, which was strictly forbidden. I just about shit a brick when I saw this photo at the end of the year, but this is the kind of things Demo did.
10. Demo holding his Pulaski in the air to demonstrate his enthusiasm to challenge the fire behind him Mano a FUEGO!
11. Big Willie mopping up a desert fire down on the Tonto NF.
12 Big Willie on the verge of heat stroke because he got shit faced drunk the previous night in an unauthorized bender without the rest of the crew, so he was on his own to pay the price.
13. Big Willie backfiring a desert fire…down on the Tonto.
14. Our crew hiking off into the sunset on a fire up in Washington State, just because it’s a cool photo.
Draft excerpt from my tome;
“We didn’t care the BLM lost us for the first couple of days, we had flown out with some cases of rats, a few cubies of water, a couple of cases of fusees, plus all of the standard emergencies food every crew member carried in their day packs or web gear butt packs. In addition to the 2 gallons of water (at 8 pounds per gallon) on their web gear and all the fusees they normally carried on the line.
We were pretty happy there wasn’t any overhead or other crews around because we had an unlimited supply of deep drainages to backfire after cutting indirect line to tie off rocks slides, rock ledges, or ridge tops. We were in the full blown burn-baby-burn mode without any busybody overhead to suggest we cut a lot of direct line and backfire fewer canyons.
I should have been able to call someone on my forest net radio, but back in the day radios were analog and they only had 4 or 5 channels and none of them where those used by the Lake Havasu Field Office, Arizona BLM, nor were our radios programmable back then.
This state of affairs is probably not something today’s wildland firefighters can relate to. Their digital radios are carrying hundreds of channels at the same time and they can be programmed or cloned by local radios literally on the fly. Radio caches were always supplied to fires that could have hundreds of radios in them with NIFC and air guard channels programmed in them so everybody can be on the same page, but we got sent to the line before those radios could be flown into supply the fire for the first couple of days.
And besides that, I wasn’t really worried about it The fire overhead had flown us out there in helicopter and surely they knew where we were and what we were doing?That’s how it works; they keep track of those kinds of things as part of the overall fire plan, strategies and tactics to fight the fire…right?
By the end of the second day however, we had run out of everything and our back firing party was about to come to an end unless we got some more water and fusees.. I had a very strict guideline while working day shifts on desert fires where it got up to 120 degrees during the hot part of the day. No water…no work. Luckily…we found an Arizona Game and Fish trick tank by the end of the second day.
A trick tank is made by laying out a huge pizza slice shaped mass of some kind of synthetic liner with a border around it a few inches high that actually slopes to the middle of the apron and downhill to a huge underground cistern to hold the rain water the synthetic apron catches once in a blue moon when it rains. Although when it rains in the desert during the monsoon season, it tends to rain like a cow pissing on a flat rock. The buried cistern was full of cool water, so at least we weren’t going to die from dehydration, but we still needed some cases of rats and most of all…some more fusees. We still had a lot of desert canyons and drainages to burn out.
Early in the evening after we had quit work for the day, we could hear the distinctive and steady Wop, Wop, Wop of an approaching Bell helicopter. Soon we could see the flashing strobe light on the front of what looked like a beautiful medium lift Bell 212 with twin engines in the darkening sky.
The Bell 212 is a descendant and one of the many variants that have been derived from my favorite helicopter of all time…the ubiquitous Bell UH-1 Iroquois series otherwise known as the Huey. The slick was on a direct course that would take it right over our ridge we were standing on in a few minutes. Some of the crew began waving their arms and fire shirts to attract the attention of those flying above us.
The signaling worked; the large helicopter banked sharply shortly after flying over our position. The slick came in with its nose flared up and tail down to land in our midst with a sudden and powerful rotor wash of flying dirt and debris cascading over us. A crew member, who was cross-trained as a helitack and wearing goggles, had been throwing dirt up into the air and giving the pilot arm signals to help him adjust his landing into the wind; this helped slow the airspeed of the huge helicopter as he came in fast and settled down in crotch like an large animal about to pounce on unsuspecting prey in the dimming light from the setting sun.
A man jumped out of the passenger side of the chopper while the pilot kept the rotor turning with a steady and with a deep thump, thump, thump, as the threatening blades continued to beat the air, even while the ship was resting. The man crouched and moved quickly towards me, as I moved to intercept him.
When I got close enough for him to hear me in spite of the rotor wash from the powerful blades that continued to spin by the engines at idle I yelled, “We need some cubies (five gallon containers of water), some rats and some more fusees. The man shouted at me, “Who the hell are you guys?” I reached out, put my arm around the little helitack’s shoulders and pulled him close so he could hear me over the noise made by the blurred but clearly visible rotor blades slicing through the air close above our heads.
“We’re the Happy Jack Hotshots and we need some cubies, rats and fusees.” If you have ever had a conversation under the rotor wash of a helicopter, even one sitting at idle…it is best to keep them short and basic. “You’re not on our list…the overhead don’t even know you’re out here!” the helitack yelled back. “Okay, well…we need some cubies, rats and fusees” I shouted back at him.
“We did hear there might be a crew out here they are calling the Ghost Crew, but we been supplying crews all day, our helicopter is almost out of time and we are almost out of daylight” my new friend yelled at me. “But we can come back first thing in the morning!”
Since I didn’t have any choice, I thought this sounded like a pretty good plan. “Okay…we need some cubies, rats and fusees” I yelled as the helitack retreated to the safety of his patiently waiting helicopter which soon lifted off in another flurry of dust, small rocks, and other debris sucked up off the spine of the desert ridge.
We didn’t care; we knew they would be back in the morning with more rats, containers of water and fusees. Our hand line was finished and in the morning, we would fire out the valley below us to make a clean black line on this sector of the fire without direction from the BLM Fire Team.
We still had water from the trick tank and the slacks did kick out some cases of rats before they flew off in the sunset to the motel. We were happy as we curled up on the spongy apron of the trick tank in our ponchos and went to sleep with our hardhats for pillows while we listened to the calls of coyotes and gazed at the stars so sharp and clear above us in the night sky of the desert as we watched the beautiful fire make runs up steep canyons and ridges in the distance.“
If this is part of the book I know it will be good reading Gary. Plenty of action being a wild land firefighter–something few could do I can see. In all my life it never entered my mind to be a fire fighter–and after I have been informed about the work over the past few years, I would still prefer mining or logging over that work. So it takes a special type person to do that, I think a football player might do well–but then only for the team work needed.
It was a shame that the movie did not use more of the experienced wild land firefighters to produce “Only the Brave”. But then I doubt those in the know would have gone along with the story line they had for that movie. Perhaps from the book will come another movie based more upon the realities of wild land fire fighting. A documentary is due on the Yarnell incident–the real story of what happened at Yarnell during the deadly days leading up to June 30, 2013.
No…real wildland firefighters that hadn’t been bought off wouldn’t have gone along with that ridiculous movie. But thanks for your recognition of the job WF do…but I wouldn’t do mining or logging work because it’s just too damn dangerous and no fun!
Demo had a huge 4×4 Ford 3/4 ton truck with a really high lift kit, huge off-road tires and heavy after market bumpers on it. It was an older model that I think was a couple of colors that included primer grey and was a little beat up. But it was definitely a very cool truck, especially for a wildland firefighter to drive.
Anyway…Demo was from Phoenix and he lived down there during the off season where he worked construction. So one night…he was arrested by Phoenix PD for DUI and by the time he got out of jail, he didn’t have the money to pay for the impoundment and storage fees for his Mongo truck.
And it really pissed Demo off when they wouldn’t give him back his truck. So he climbed over the 8 foot high security fence with razor wire on top of it at the Phoenix PD impoundment lot and then he drove his truck through the closed security gates. That didn’t end well for Demo, but he was back at Long Valley in time to fight fire in the spring and that was what was important to me, although we never saw his Mongo truck again. Bummer, ☹️
Great photos Gary. Be sure to post one of your Dad–That was an amazing photo of a hero when Uranium was needed the most–early 60’s. It is really a wonder nuclear war did not happen back then and it is now revealed that we were within minutes of one several times. So it was a necessary job that few could handle and contributed to the defense of this nation to a high degree. When I worked Uranium I always mentally took it to be I was going to war. Hard rock mining is dangerous but only about half as dangerous as Uranium mining. So you celebrated every day because you knew it might be your last.
Most of that Ambrosia lake Uranium was deep mined–seems like they liked the 900ft level for some of the best Uranium–I did some long hole work (75′ of drill holes in a fan so the geologists could probe and look for rich areas or at least determine the quality of ore). But most of my work was driving drift in the Uranium mines. But sandstone that the stuff is found in is a different animal to hard rock. Everything had to be wire messed and everything you drilled was apt to come down on you so you had to be on your toes all the time. It does not take much of a slab to kill you and I have had them fall near me that would make you into a pancake. The one that finally ended my mining career would probably only weighed a thousand pounds. I think more men were carried out of Uranium mines than any other type of mining–dead or wounded. I know I had helped carry out enough but you would always hear from other miners about someone getting hurt or killed on less than a weekly basis–the mines never kept count at least when and where I worked–it would have been too embarrassing to the company and perhaps slowed the efforts of getting the ore out.
I see they are going to revive some Uranium concentrating plants. Something about Russia is the only place certain concentrations can be purchased for nuclear reactors. At any rate the Plutonium that is a by product of this concentrating effort is among the most deadly of all the radioactive elements. Just one molecule breathed in is guaranteed to cause cancer. That shit is more poison than cyanide because only minuscule particles are needed to ruin your life. Cyanide in small concentrations in the air is bad though–also a known cardiogenic. One reason I so highly detest the idea that retardant is so intensely spread about and especially near human habitations. The old method of miners making cyanide is to put that retardant substance on burning embers. But of course the cyanide gas that comes off the retardant put on wild fires is such that it usually takes a number of years to get a cancer going. If you want quick metastasis you would breath in a bit of radon and very quick them try Plutonium. There are some isotopes similar to the Plutonium such as the Polonium 210 that killed those Russians in the UK that Putin wanted to dispose of. Very deadly by products of manufacturing this stuff our country will start making. Rather like a blast to the back by a 12 guage in a way except there is absolutely no chance of recovery and the misery must be hard to alleviate with pain meds.
But I think if all the things that would rank with that are the burns that fire fighters sometimes suffer. I have felt them so I know and have proof–fortunately a leg burn scar but if the same scar were on my face it would cover the whole of it–much like the poor chap we see on TV asking for Veteran’s contributions. That was a war wound for him but there are a number of fire fighters that have a similar look due to their heroic efforts. One of the reasons I think for the most part you fellows are underpaid and especially that man who is out there on the wild fire line. I do not know much about structural fighters but I can see that could be dangerous, especially when you would have to go in and try to locate someone trapped inside.
Something I see in fire fighting is more women on the line. That would not work in mining and the only time I saw a woman underground was at the Chruch Rock Mine that United Nuclear had out of Gallup, NM. That gal was slight in build and someone had said her Dad was a Judge, how she finagled a job underground I suppose. She lasted only a few weeks because miners needed someone who could load 150 -200 pound rolls of mesh and mine machines such as drills and boxes of dynamite in a mine car and then unload them too. I had to unload for her when I needed wire but that should have been her job so some of the miners complained and of course a miner taken away from drilling and blasting cost the company so she went topside doing some lighter work. She had hoped to become a miner–but most of the women I know could never handle it. For example, when I was doing raise mining at Fierro, New Mexico, all the men were of Mexican descent–most could not speak English. (These guys were good miners but that mine got them cheaper than us Gringos so you can imagine there were not many Gringos in that mine.) In fact none that I ever met underground–so I was the only gabacho and the rest were top side bosses. Well if you had brought a woman underground there, every Mexican would have left. It is bad luck to bring a woman underground with the Mexican way of thinking.
Raise mining by the way was not any miner’s favorite job–but you do it if they need it. You drive a shaft straight up so that one had to go up 150 ft. To keep going up you put in stulls or timbers with wedges and lay timber on top of those stulls to drill off. You leave half of the thing so when you blast the muck will fall down the open space and you set it up so your ladder and landings stay in place. Sometimes I had to repair things the blast would knock out but generally could keep my landings. But early on I did not wedge my stulls in good enough so about 30 ft up they gave way and down I went machine, steel and timbers and stulls. I landed in a wet pile of muck that I had previously blasted but thought I was going to be busted up. The wet muck saved my ass cause I hit it feet first and buried myself deep enough that my rubber boots were stuck so when I pulled out, I had to go back and dig the boots loose==soggy feet that day but went right back to setting up but this time you know I had learned a lesson to get those stulls in properly. There is a hell of a vibration on a drill machine and you can see why raise mining is a dangerous proposition. Well the only Gringo there was assigned the raise–I don’t know what that meant but that mine shut down due to a union strike. Most mines were not union but Fierro Undrground Mines were part of that big open pit operation at Santa Rita. I stopped by that old mine a few months ago–It is shut down but the Open Pit is still working. I was working a raise from the 400 level to the 250 level at that time.
I did learn a lot of Spanish there, especially mining terms. But I would not recommend raise mining as a constant job.
Reply to Charlie post on December 10, 2018 at 11:06 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> The only evidence on the backfire that I am aware of was a video Joy
>> pointed out to me in the Library at Yarnell shortly after we were able to return.
>>
>> It is circumstantial evidence that I would swear to as to what I saw in that video.
>>
>> The reason I would is because we both saw two men on the left side of the
>> Shrine road lighting bushes with drip torches. This is indelible on my memory
>> because we had to return to the Shrine Road to make sure that rock foundation
>> was actually what in place as in the video and as we had remembered.
>>
>> Eventhough we positively identified the exact area the torches were being used,
>> we also took a trip to Peeples Valley to make sure there was not an
>> identical rock foundation along one of the dirt roads there. There is no such
>> foundation along any other road.
“…we positively identified the EXACT area the torches were being used,”
So it was definitely ( at least ) TWO men… identifiable as ‘fire fighters’ ( and not just civilians ), and they were definitely using ‘drip torches’ ( and not fusees/flares ).
Do you recall anything about the way they were clothed? Colors of helmets?
Also… when you originally talked about this video here on this forum you said the EXACT location on Shrine Road where you saw this ‘burning’ taking place was right there where the pavement of Shrine Road ends and the ‘dirt part’ begins…. just at the west end of the Shrine of St. Joseph.
Is that still the “EXACT area the torches were being used” that you are referring to now?
I did reply to WTKTT but do not see the post. Perhaps it is there? Answer was yes–the stone foundation was south of where they were using the drip torches–not sure color of hats, think white and yellow uniforms. Absolutely sure the fact that two men were using drip torches and appeared to be about 50ft apart.
Yes that burnout or backfire above the Shrine makes good sense and the good sense verifies what I actually witnessed in the magic video. They were even burning on the left side of the road which would be correct considering the wind factor driving the fire away from Yarnell. Even with the wind headed toward the death bowl it makes good sense because that would protect and did protect downtown Yarnell–actually the major part of Yarnell. Because they were going to do a bulldozer path along the North side of Glen Isla, that also makes sense if you look at the map. The time those burnouts were being made is of critical importance. We do know that fire would have gone up toward the death canyon at a high velocity because if you look at the video the trees were doing a strong wind motion. Refer to the extended videos that have not been removed to get an idea
and consider also that the Shirne area is in a wind funnel channel. Perhaps one can get an idea of about when those fires were being lighted if indeed those videos that do exist are extensions of the drip torch video. Whoever was in that white pickup taking video is a clue–but you can bet his mouth has been sowed shut with some heavy duty cat gut.
I would invite any Wild Land Fighter that has visited the spot to tell me it would not be a sensible place to start a back burn. Chief Ben Palm did the exact act when on the opposite side of Yarnell and winds were headed in the opposite direction.
I wonder if people would lie before their Congress–or if omission of facts could contiue–omission can be a crime in a cover up situation I would think–especially in a death situation of the nation’s young firefighters.
But I am ever reminded of how politics, cronyism and even nepotism has infected the system, especially in that particular Yarnell incident. Anyone that dares challenge the so called wonderful job at Yarnell and how it was finally played out as a good effort and God’s needing those men in heaven idea, will be vilified You dare not challenge the reputations of the powers that be–and damn you if you try to show the truth to the world–especially if you work in the system and are game enough to jeopardize your job..
Well I speak to what I saw and what I have learned from those that are long time Wild Land Fire Fighting Specialists. They know their onions when it comes to fire fighting–and that is the real thorn in the ass of those attempting to keep the public misinformed so they can continue to maintain their angelic appearances and heroic looks. Shit.
Someday there will be a young person, now one of the babes of the deceased firemen come to this site and that person will say Marsh and Steed killed my Dad. The evidence is too strong to believe otherwise. Call it a minimum of negligence if you will, but the jury would be certain to convict with all we know and has been exposed on IM about the incident. The witnesses to the facts and errors that caused the deaths include the most elite among wild land fire fighters, smoke jumpers, and even men who are greatly respected wild land fire fighter death investigators. I do not need to mention the names, They are too numerable but you can find them all posting here on Investigative Media.
Satellite images–something people generally do not look at.. They say much about any wild land fire and some that visit this site have great understanding of how to get to them and what they say. Some take up heat images and will give exact times of flareups and burns. Even some of those were there and then magically went away. But some were of good mind and knew the tactics of people trying to protect their government blank checks for firefighting and reputations with the Federal funding managers.
Gary is right–Congress needs to look closely at the situation and a lobby might do the trick.
Reply to Charlie post on December 12, 2018 at 9:05 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Answer was yes–the stone foundation was south of
>> where they were using the drip torches
Thank you… but stick with me for a moment.
You know me… a stickler for details.
I am trying to be absolutely SURE what the EXACT point is that you say you have ‘verified’ as the location of this “rock wall” there on Shrine Road.
I went back and looked through all the chapters of this ongoing forum, and I noticed that when you have mentioned the location of the ‘rock wall’ before… sometimes you said it was “right there” where the pavement of Shrine road ends and the dirt part begins… but on at least 3 or 4 other occassions you then said the location of the ‘rock wall’ was about “one hundred yards” further west on Shrine Road from where the pavement ends.
A hundred yards will make a big differrence when it comes to plotting sight-lines in other photographs and whatnot.
So was this ‘EXACT location’ of the stone wall really “right there” where the Shrine road pavement ends… or was it 100 yards ( or some other measurement? ) further west down the dirt part of Shrine Road?
WTKTT Tried to post earlier so will try again–Yes the rock wall is about 100 yards above the Shrine along where pavement turns to dirt. It is actually not a rock wall but part of a foundation where a building stood in years past. From the foundation up the dirt road farther about 50 to 100 yards (judgment off video we saw) was where they were using the drip torches. Thanks WTKTT glad you are good with details.
If I were there I could step off the distance from the Shrine Parking Lot to the rock foundation. It would be close to a hundred yards from that lot so that if you could see the parking lot on satellite then you would look along the dirt road to the west side for the rock foundation. I termed it wall sometimes because it was about two feet above ground on the side facing the road but it was actually a foundation of an old dwelling. It the video it stood out as the marker we used to identify where we could locate the location of the zip torches being used. It has been several years now since I have been to that Shrine area–so going by memory on distance but that should not be far off.
I do not know if google map can walk you to the wall. Joy was able to find my 10 acres near Dolan Springs and walk up a dirt road for a mile with the map. Amazing what can be done with technology these days. Technology may defeat the lies generated about the Yarnell Fire incident as well.
Sonny,
Thank you for the information that you have just given us for at least a second time with some clarification and perhaps some further detail.
I have thought about it…a lot, and I don’t think that anything that anybody did that day made any real difference to anything that happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire or in the deaths of the crew, other than the decision to try and beat the fire to town, that was I believe, probably part of an overall plan to try and backfire from the Ball Dozer Line.
I believe that the crew was killed by a firestorm of Biblical proportions that first burned to the north up the valley (more or less) and then turned on its heals, exactly as it was predicted to do by the National Weather Service, exactly when it was predicted to do so, and then it burned back down the valley to the south, southeast (more or less) while making side runs up canyons or ridges as strong erratic winds that swirled around and varied because the fire as created its own weather and the topography of the valley affected the wind patterns.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outflow_boundary
But overall…the Firestorm Of Biblical Proportions was driven back towards Yarnell and Glen IIah by the outflow boundary wind or gust front from the thunder cell that was most characterized by the expected sudden 180 degree wind shift.
I believe the FIRESTORM OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS called the Yarnell Hill Fire, that turned into the Yarnell Hill Disaster killed the crew after Eric Marsh ordered Jesse Steed three separate times (an order Steed eventually acquiesced to and agreed to follow) to march their crew in front of the fire in a vain, foolish and extraordinarily reckless attempt to beat the fire to town.
I think that whatever two firefighters (or more) may have done with drip torches over by the shrine was inconsequential in the overall results of that days events and was a tempest in a teacup compared to the fast moving FIRESTORM OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS created by Mother Nature and managed by CHAOS.
All details are important to document what I hope will forever remain the Greatest Blunder in Wildland Furefighting History because it’s hard for me ti imagine anything worse ever gphapoening, but until this happened it was impossible fir me ti imagine it ever happening, so who knows? But I believe further details are unlikely to significantly change the overall narrative as we (or at least I) now understand it.
Misfire…I guess, or I’m posting this twice?
Well…that last paragraph is pretty bad by even by my low standards of editing, so…
“All details are important to document what I hope will forever remain the Greatest Blunder in Wildland Firefighting History because it’s hard for me to imagine anything worse ever happening, but until this happened, it was impossible for me to imagine it ever happening…so who knows? But I believe further details are unlikely to significantly change the overall narrative as we (or at least I) now understand it.”
Most things in my world as I understand it can be illustrated by referencing “The Big Lebowski” (as you probably know) and most of what can’t, Moby managed to capture in song lyrics.
Down below, I described our efforts in fighting FIRE as equating to hard working little ants 🐜 (or spiders) that really didn’t make all that much difference most of the time until Mother Nature decided enough was enough.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-475826
I also described the situation as I believe it happened with whatever backfire occurred in the Shrine area in similar terms.
Here Moby describes us in terms I can relate to;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GtXGgTPkXQ4&list=PL3354692F366CB5F5&index=4
Gary, I agree. Doubtful the burn there would have caught them, however the fact that they never reported that burn out leaves the question of when did they start the burn? Those men certainly must not have known that the GMHS were in the brush — as so many have said the whole situation was total pandemonium. Deputy that was on duty that day told us as well.
Why dissolve the video though? I was not the only one to see it but maybe with Joy the only one to actually go to the rock foundation to verify that we had seen men using drip torches along that dirt road beyond the foundation. You do not forget something like that and the fact that Joy and I even went to Peeples Valley dirt roads to see if there could be a look alike situation. I really think the time could be estimated off the videos that remain since I am certain they are extensions of the drip torch video.
If they were torching there were they torching farther up that road? The road actually goes only a few hundred yards up that canyon and ended at an abandoned ranch place. Well a map would show it but I had hiked it several times with Joy and with other people including fire men and others. I believe Norb even went that way, I know Ted did and Joy could list all who we hiked that route. It certainly makes sense they would burn that area with the winds going away from Yarnell.
There is a lot to ponder about that Shrine burn. One thing the Peeples Valley Chief (not the new one) said they were not in that Shrine area, yet Brandon that worked there gave a talk and included that area in his talk. No I did not hear the talk but Joy got it first hand from Dr. Anderson where the talk was held that Brandon was in that area. That long time Fire Chief denied that Brandon even worked for him and yet Mr. Brandon had actually worked there for 15 years. Maybe the Chief had a brain farc and could not at that time recall he had seen that guy check in hundreds of times. I do not know the number of firemen in Peeples Valley Department but with a populating of about 300, probably everybody knows everybody else and what their business is.
There were 650 people in Yarnell (now down to about 500 after the fires) and Joy could go down the street and tell you who lived there and how much property they had and how long and what they did for a living or not. She also recorded everything that Chief said and retains it on tape.
So the videos that remain of that Shrine area do show Peeples Valley water truck leaving the Shrine Area in a hurry. Everybody was in a hurry to get to the restaurant meeting place after a long hot day at firefighting. I get that. But what I do not understand why the denial that they were in the Shrine area? It would be highly important to any investigation to reveal the times they were there and any times they began using drip torches in there along with where exactly were the burns started. Surely they would start farther back in and burn as they came out so the fire would be behind them. Your are not going to paint yourself in a corner unless you are green behind the ears such as Donut almost got caught in the Doce fire.
Well it goes to show that there was a lot lacking in the investigation. I suspect that it was not altogether the investigators fault, that people had already been told to let only the supervisors do the talking else they would get the boot. I think it is even written that way in their employment agreement.
The best thing would to be a Congressional hearing but that might not happen. I do understand some are trying to get one and that Satellite images verify some things I have said long ago. I have not seen the images but people that are expert in those have and are working on taking the investigation to another level. I hope they do. The loved ones deserve the truth for closure–not the white wash we have seen.
Yes, there was a lot that went wrong that day and a lot that got covered up and they did their best to lie to and mislead the families and public on everything.
And what Dudley and people like him dont seem to understand, is that once you start lying about some things, there are then some really good reasons for those who Dudley and people work for…us, who will distrust them and their conclusions on everything because liars…lie.
I just personally think the 800 pound gorilla that day that killed the crew based on where they were and where the 800 pound gorilla wwas, it was that gorilla, the YHF Bibilical Firestorm coming back down the valley that caught the crew.
But…that is just a guess on my part because there are still so many of the Yavapai County Cosa Nostra ( Our Thing) who are really doing their own thing because they don’t have any fear of any consequences because it really is an incestuous good ole boy based network on small mountain town Arizona Hillbilly Redneck Inbred Cracker Clowns runnin’’ that particular circus.
Other than that…I think they are a bunch of pretty good guys from the old days.
And I just saw on the news that that CORRUPT, LYING, THIEVING, JERK OFF RYAN ZINKE JUST GOT SHIT CANNED…so I was certainly RIGHT about that one and maybe things will be better for the USDI going forward. I hope. Told you so….nana nana nana, poo poo on you. (Whoever didn’t believe me on that one)
Now…they just need to prosecute him for being a CORRUPT, THIEVEING, LYING POLITICIAN AND PUT HIM IN ORISON WHERE HE CAN MAKE A NEW FRIEND…LOTS OF THEM…DRAIN THE SWAMP. SAD!
FYI…I really like being a grouchy old man and sitting around in my underwear with oat meal dribbling down my chin while I yell at the TV about politicians.
Play your cards right…and all current WF have this to look forward to…if you are like me and you live to long.
I. mean…being the Secretary of the Interior would be the greatest cabinet position there is. There is a country full of really neat places you can legitimately go visit on quasi vacations out there with your wife.
Just don’t take your spouse on a snorkeling vacation to the US Virgin Islands and charge her portion of the trip to the taxpayers, it’s really not that hard.
You have unlimited places to go legitimately fuck off, including the US Virgin Islands. Just do it the RIGHT WAY.
Is that asking too much?
Hey Sonny, yes we did go in that way on my first visit and I do remember the stone wall(foundation). I will say again that I also saw the video before it disappeared, two firefighters with drip torches – don’t remember helmet colors but pretty sure yellow shirts and green pants.
Happy belated birthday and glad to hear you survived your dogs hunting trip!
I also saw a video showing 2 firefighters performing a manual burnout that I have never been able to locate since. It was probably July of 2013 when I saw it. I reviewed the 3 videos wwtktt posted & none were it. I remember the wind direction was away from the road so it was a head fire not a fire backing into the wind. I may have seen a red type 6 in it but I can’t say for sure. 2 firefighters on the ground with torches I do recall. Hearsay evidence I came into tells me firefighters that have participated in staff rides have made comments amongst themselves (within earshot of others) talking about it. That’s the best I can do right now on that.
There’s (to me) monumental mounting circumstantial evidence that leads me to the theory that it’s quite possible ground ignitions burned over the crew. For GM & all their flaws and mistakes, I won’t give up inquiry until this path is eliminated from possibility. The least I can do.
Truly eliminate the impossible then we’re left with the truly possible. For whatever it’s worth, if I was a ball-licking scumbag career path ladder climber & anyone under my jurisdiction screwed up that bad by not making sure GM was NOT going to be “in front of the flaming front ” that was actually my ignition ops, that’s the 1st video I would make sure was scrubbed forever.
Of course, this is one of many contributing factors that have been discussed.
Woodsman–Norb also saw the video and I have had the good fortune to meet and hike with Norb to the kill site. Norb would be the last person to question whether he had seen the video or not–he formerly supervised two crews in wild land fire figting and has retired with many years experience in that area. Yet some continue to deny there was ever a video with men doing drip torches in the Shrine area. My question to anyone would not be whether there was a video–too many saw it of good character and fire fighting wisdom such as yourself. The question would be why would they redact that video and what were the time lines of the burn out they were doing there at the Shrine.
Way back not too long after we saw the video, I had in my mind that all the information should come out so we knew whether that burn out had anything to do with trapping the men. I am well convinced that it happened–I do think Joy may have obtained some time lines on it and where it even started since she has interviewed people from more that one crew from different areas of the country that were in there. Peeples Valley did everything possible to keep information from Joy and that in itself was suspicious. But she has even dined with one of the lookouts that was at the Grotto next the Shrine. So she likely knows exactly what happened there concerning the burn out and the time lines, etc. However, it is a very touchy subject and involves peoples livelihood and job. Unlike mining, the fire fighting profession suppresses any information beyond what the Superiors will allow. I see it is written in their contracts that they have to keep anything they know to themselves or tell it to their Superior who then decides if it can be said. If that is not Hitler Jack Boot shit nothing is–so we had the Peeples Valley telling lies, no truth out of Yarnell and here we learn at least two if not more departments including Peeples Valley were in that Shrine area. What they did–Peeples Valley said there was no report because they were not there–everyone else including Blue Ridge had mum orders. What the hell must they hide involving a wild fire incident? All I can see is the truth of what really took place during that debacle.
Thanks Woodsman–You have been a boon to getting at the real story of the Yarnell failed fire fighting incident.
I will tell you what wildland firefighters really need, is a stone cold lobbying group to meet with representatuves and senators to get them to understand what is needed are some common sense changes in how wildfires are fought. That’s what wildland firefighters need.
If I wasn’t so lazy and busy writing my tome, I would start a Go Fund Me page and do just that. The USFS needs to have our elected leaders order them to quit fighting fire in the last century and move into the 21st century.
Maybe the Wildland Firefighter Foundation in Boise could take on the role of a lobbying group?
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 11, 2018 at 11:52 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Maybe the Wildland Firefighter Foundation in Boise
>> could take on the role of a lobbying group?
It’s not part of their ‘mission statement’… but sometimes they actually do.
Just one example ( from 2016 )…
Wildfire Today
Legislation proposes to allow firefighters disabled on the job to retain 20-year retirement in non-fire position
https://wildfiretoday.com/2016/12/17/legislation-proposes-to-allow-firefighters-disabled-on-the-job-to-retain-20-year-retirement/
The bill is titled “S. 3544 — 114th Congress: Wildland Firefighter Retirement and Disability Compensation Benefits Act of 2016”.
The Wildland Firefighter Association fully ( and publicly ) supported U.S. Senator Steve Daines’ legislation which would also allow the injured firefighter’s history of overtime pay to be considered as income for purposes of calculating worker’s compensation disability benefits.
The bill was introduced in the U.S. Senate on December 9, 2016, was ‘read twice’ on the Senate Floor, and was then referred to the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. It’s still ‘sitting there’ ( in committee ) waiting to move on to the Senate floor. Might eventually move ‘out’ of committee and be voted into law… might not.
Wow, that could have helped me back in the day, because originally they slotted me for a Recreation Technician position after my smoke inhalation/throat/lung issue got really bad and I would have lost my public safety retirement, which was going to really hurt…bad.
But like I have said before, the USFS was going to fuck me over, but I got lucky and FIRE stepped up and gave me an extended stay of execution so I had time to into a secondary FIRE job. But, FIRE peoplevshoudnt have to depend on luck to skate by…so I hope so. At least they are recognizing the problem exists.
Thanks
Oh…and yes, the reason I didn’t even consider a medical disability retirement was because it was going to be based on 80% (I think or maybe 75 %) of a straight GS-7 pay which was nothing without the OT and Hazard Pay, Nightime Differential and per diem etc, I was going to get fucked hard without any lube.
And this is getting down into the weeds, but it may help some WF have a heads up because I had to learn it the hard way.
To be eligible for early retirement (at least when I was working but I doubt it’s changed) you have to start as a Primary Firefighter and then you can move into a Secondary Position in a FIRE office job and keep your early retirement.
BUT…if you have a “break in service”, say being put into a Recreation Technician job for a pay period, and then you go into a Secondary Firefighter Position, you are no longer eligible for early retirement even if you had already put in 19 years as a Primary Firefighter.
To become eligible again, you must start again as a Primary Firefighter before you can then move into a Secondary Position and keep your early retirement.
And it isn’t always obvious who is who, because believe it or not…a hotshot crew boss is in a Secondary Position. I only worked in a Primary Position as a temporary employee.
Medical disability retirement is a very hard to get and very easy to lose. If you make a certain amount of money in a new job, you lose your disability retirement and they check you every so often, I think it’s once a year, and if they determine you no longer have a significant disability, you lose it.
Bottom line…is pray you never have to go down that road, because under a best case scenario, you will will lose what will feel like EVERYTHING you have busted your ass and risk your life countless times to earn.
The federal government is NOT your friend…ever. You are always one heartbeat away from being in an adversarial relationship with them and they get to make all of the rules for the engagement. And in general, their rules say they win…game over. thanks for playing.
In other words, there is no such thing as the “Forest Service Family.” The only people who believe that, are those who had the dumb luck to never have their Firest Service Family do everything they possibly could to abort them with extreme prejudice.
And please keep in mind that I am brainstorming here, mostly with me, myself and I while I try to come up with a comprehensive list of casual factors in the deaths of the crew. And not everything I have written so far will make my final list, or some will probably be modified when and if they do.
Anyway…here are some more.
60. Hotshot hubris is the number one killer of hotshots, second only to Death From Above. Supreme confidence is required to get the job done, but there is a very fine line between supreme confidence and hubris.
61. The need for an investigative body that is organized along the lines of the NTSB has been proven to be needed because the USFS et al have proven themselves incapable of conducting fair, impartial, and honest investigations of fire disasters in the past and they continue to prove it with every one they conduct. The lack of such an investigative body in the past was a significant contributing factor in the deaths of the crew on the Yarnell Hill Disastrr because of past coverups, particularly with the Loop and the Battlement Creek Fires.
62. Dr. Putnam has identified fraud and abuse with the Red Card System in the past as being a contributing factor in other disasters. That was an especially significant factor in the South Canyon Disaster. It may have been a contributing factor in the Yarnell Hill Disaster, I will have to think about that one some more?
63. The use of the prison crew who were poorly trained, equipped and motivated and were led by poorly trained and motivated leaders was a contributing factor to the fire, which in turn led to the deaths of the crew. The reason I know the prison crew and their leaders were poorly trained, equipped and motivated was because they didn’t put the fire out during their initial attack. There is no excuse for their failure to do so other than the reasons I named…period.
64. The failure to evacuate Yarnell etc. based on current AND expected fire behavior and weather condithions in a timely manner led to crisis management later that day, which in turn contributed to the deaths of the crew.
65. I hit on this one in general, but I want to drill down on it specifically to the Yarnell Hill Disaster. The common practice of fighting fire on the cheap with a shoestring budget by Arizona Forestry by staffing up fires slowly and incrementally with the primary objective of saving money rather than getting ahead of the power curve, led them to order up a short team and then default to the practice of
cannibalizing units on the fire to feel required positions, led to them to take Marsh and bump him up to Division Alpha. While this practice is common and acceptable in legitimate exigenent circumstances, it shouldn’t be Plan A. In this instance, the fact that Marsh was Division A who was managing the portion of the fire that the crew was on, meant that Marsh was enabled to retain operational control of the crew as the actual Granite Mountain Crew Boss. If there would have been anyone other than Marsh serving as Division A, I don’t believe Steed would ever, in a million years have finally acquiesced to risk the lives of his crew by leading them down that death chute…period. The irresponsibility of Arizona Forestry to engage in that practice as standard operating procedure removed a critical layer of safety that is built into the system and set the stage for an egotistical supervisor who was unwilling to relinquish his direct control over the crew and therefore manually overrode and bypassed that safety feature.
66. I don’t think this was an issue in the deaths of the crew because their circumstances were so extreme there wasn’t any chance of anyone surviving what they went through, but next time it might and so it shouldn’t be overlooked. Rescue didn’t even know where to begin looking for the crew…how disturbing is that? I will have to go back and review the particulars, but I think the DPS slick was initially heading to the north because the fire overhead were still under the mistaken impression the crew was heading to the ranch up to the northwest of the fire due to Marsh’s disengenunous as to their true location and intentions. I think it was through a series of clues and good guesses by the rescue crew that enabled them to find them as quickly as they did. One of my heroes of the day was DPS Medic Eric Tarr who ran up hoping to save firefighters lives but only found charred corpses under delaminated fire shelters turned to silicate particulate powder with still operating fire net radios mocking him with the voices of others. I can’t imagine the shock and horror of the sight, sounds and smells that greeted Tarr. The fact that he was able to still function as a medic, speaks volumes for his character and training. I’m quite sure his outstanding training and past experiences automatically kicked in and he went into auto pilot that enabled him to do his job. The same job that would have incapacitated me and driven me to my knees in shock, horrior and grief. But it shouldn’t have been that way, in this day and age every crew, engine, dozer, water tender etc, should be equipped with locator beacons on them at all times. Luddites like RTS…even though he deserves significant credit for playing a key role in the modernization and professionalization of hotshot crews should be dismissed as the quack he is in this particular case. Gee…Walmart knows where every truck of theirs is at every minute of every day is…why can’t we do the same with critical FIRE assets? Individual shipments and even separate pallets of fish and other perishables are tracked 24/7 which include the temperatures they have been stored at, but rescue didn’t know where to even start looking for an entire hotshot crew that had just been burned over? Wow…how fucked up is that? There could very well have been survivors who could have been saved and there might be next time . Do you really want their blood on your hands RTS? I didn’t think so.
67. I am a little more fuzzy on this one than all of the other factors I am fuzzy on, but I think there were some operational and functional issues that day with command and control of the overall fire line. What we called “line” in the old days. Back in the day, the chain of command was always crystal clear, there was a Line Boss in command of the line period. I think confusion between Ops 1 and Ops 2 may have led to some, “Who’s On First?” moments that day…maybe?
My tome…it’s not just going to be just a book, it’s going to be a tome, go big or go home I always say, is also going to include case studies and analysis of the Loop, Battlement Creek and South Canyon Fires while examining their common data points as well as their differences. I am also going to focus on Human Factors which another one of the few heroes from that day, Brian Frisby, said were, “off the charts.” I will also include elements of the “Swiss Cheese”, and the “Cascade Failure” models as they apply to the Yarnell Hill Disaster. And to show my old friend RTS I don’t hold grudges because he and the Payson Hotshots were slackers on the Murdoch Basin Fire Of 1980 in the Wasatch Mountsins of central Utah, I will even take a hard look at including the Abilene Paradox were applicable.
Case study and analysis of all four fires common data points, differences
Swiss cheese model and cascade failure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading
Break down into human factors etc.
Abilene
Whoops, accidentally left some of my notes at the bottom and a couple of words got by me, but I think you will be able to figure out what I was talking about.
Correction,
60. Hotshot hubris is the number one killer of hotshots, second only to Death From Above. Supreme confidence is required to get the job done, but there is a very fine line between supreme confidence and hubris.
Should have read,
60. Hotshot hubris is the number one killer of hotshots with Death From Above coming in as a close second. Supreme confidence is required to get the job done, but there is a very fine line between supreme confidence and hubris.
Oh…and one more thing. Since Sonny and Joy are going to be principle protagonists in my tome, I will give everybody one guess who is going to be the principle antagonist in my highly acclaimed and much anticipated work, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods and or “Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighters”?
Authors Hint; It will be the namesake of the “Eric Marsh for Wildland Firefighters To us, it’s personal.”
https://ericmarshfoundation.org/
To me, it’s also personal…but in a different way.
Just FYI…
The former “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters” has now formally dropped the “for Wildland Firefighters” part of their name and is now simply called “The Eric Marsh Foundation”.
The official announcement ( and logo changes ) happened about 5 weeks ago, on October 30, 2018.
The official announcement ( on their public Facebook page ) emphasized that the organization’s focus will remain “Wildland”… but also said something about “expanding who we donate to”.
The name change came shortly after that recent VERY ‘public’ frap where the older and larger “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” sent a ‘cease-and-desist’ letter to the ‘Eric Marsh Foundation’ regarding the use of a logo, or something like that.
Not sure if the name change had anything to do with that legal tennis match, or not.
That is very interesting, thanks for the update. I doubt if the wildland firefighters foundation in Boise has ever liked the competition for money.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
December 10, 2018 at 1:47 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I doubt if the wildland firefighters foundation
>> in Boise has ever liked the competition for money.
I think it was about more than just the competition for donations.
During the ‘public’ discussion of the cease-and-desist letter on the Eric Marsh Foundation Facebook page, Amanda Lohman ( formerly Amanda Marsh before she remarried ) referred to some kind of ‘ongoing animosity’ between the two organizations.
She also revealed ( during the same public discussion over the cease-and-desist letter ) that she was the one who actually helped queer the deal when the Wildland Firefighter Foundation sought to purchase the original ‘Granite Mountain Station 7’ from the City of Prescott when it came up for sale… and she apparently did so because of this already-ongoing animosity between the two charitable organizations.
SIDENOTE: When the City of Prescott decided to sell the original ‘Granite Mountain Station 7’, it went out for ‘bid’. The Wildland Firefighter Foundation submitted a bid to purchase the entire station and convert it into permanent ( public ) site honoring the GM Hotshots and a place to display all the diligently-saved Station 7 fence memorabilia. The City of Prescott decided to sell the Station to a Plumbing company instead… and now we now why.
Here is Amanda Lohman’s actual PUBLIC Facebook post where she admits she stepped in to help queer the deal… and it was because she ( herself ) couldn’t stomach the idea of anyone from the Wildland Firefighter Foundation (quote) “using Eric’s office” ( unquote )…
—————————————————————
Facebook
Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters
Sunday, September 16, 2018 at 1:35 PM
This is why I backed the Plumbing Store buying Station 7. I took a lot of heat for that. But my God, I couldnt stand the idea of them using Eric’s office.
—————————————————————
The City of Prescott ended up ignoring the Wildland Firefighter Foundation’s bid for Station 7 and did, in fact, sell the place to the ‘Plumbing Store’ instead, as Amanda Lohman encouraged them to do.
The people who hold the archived ‘Station 7’ fence memorabilia were then out of a permanent place to display all that and they ended up just renting an old Footlocker Shoe Store out at the Prescott Mall.
So maybe the subsequent ‘cease-and-desist’ order from the Wildland Firefighter Foundation was actually just some sort of ‘retaliation’ for Amanda Lohman helping to queer that ‘Station 7’ purchase deal for them.
Who knows.
I think the legal wrangling over logos, trademarks and whatnot has worked itself out… but the long-standing ( and still not fully explained ) animosity probably continues.
By the way… the name may have just changed on the forward facing stuff to ‘The Eric Marsh Foundation’… but the original name of ‘Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters’ is permanently ensconced in the URL’s being used by the organization.
The following is still the valid link that takes you to the organization’s public Facebook page… and the URL still includes the entire original name of the organization… “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters”…
https://www.facebook.com/pg/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/posts/
WOW…WHAT A FUCKIN’ BITCH! (Very gender specific). I hope I never do anything to piss her because she sounds PYCHO to me…know what I mean?
I really respect plumbers, because you know…I have to shit and I don’t want to look at it or deal with it. And I’m really glad they are in business to take care of that for me. I really do appreciate the work they do.
With all of that being said, I wonder how the DRAMA QUEEN and Professional Widow of Eric Marsh likes the fact that people who make their living off of SHIT, are using Eric’s office? I ‘m pretty sure they walk on the GMIHC tikes with their muddy and shitty boots on.
I have always thought that having an “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters”, makes about as much sense as having an “Andreas Lubitz Foundation for Airline Passenger Safety.”
Just sayin’…
Double WOW! I must thought about it I was sleeping because I woke up with this crystal clear thought that must have been obvious to everyone else without sleeping on it.
Her bullshit bullying manipulative move didn’t have anything to do with who used Eric’s office, she didn’t care.
That was just a lie so she could pull a fast one by wielding her Pity Club to beat the city council into submission to keep what she saw as a much more respected, very established wildland firefighter charity out of Prescott to compete with her scheme to make herself the center of attention as the Professional Widow of Eric Marsh and local Drama Queen..
Fuck me…Marsh didn’t have to kill his crew in order to try and save his pathetic career as a habitual fuck up. All he had to do was sent his wife over to slap the bitch (non gender specific) out of the mayor and city council who had manginas instead of a set of testicles, which The Dude will tell you is what makes a man..
Small town Yavapai County Cosa Nostra politics at its worst led by the Queen Of Pity so she can have all of the Pity Partirs she wants for the rest of her life as THE Widow Of The Man Who Died Trying To Save The World From FIRE!
She is really good, kinda scary…but damn good. They should have made her the GMIHC Crew Boss and just kept Eric on to drive her around town to bully people. And then the crew would still be alive.
Except that wouldn’t have worked…right? She had to have the crew DIE in order to launch her career of what she has become. That is really scary. I sure am glad I don’t live in my home town anymore. I always knew it is a small town full of hillbillies and inbred people with unusually small brains, morals and principles.
99
I had to laugh at that one Gary. It was a fact that when we visited the grave arrangement at the Prescott Memorial for GMHS flowers were in place in all the graves except Marsh– I told Joy I wondered if someone had taken them out and scattered them since everyone else’s were intact. It was a windy day so possibly the wind had scattered the flowers–but to respect the dead Joy did gather the flowers and replace them in their receptacle.
Amanda is a case–she detested the truth and Joy’s efforts to get at it that she even took Joy to court saying Joy had harassed her. That was a lie and I was witness to all this. Amanda has kept up the lie–and as that famous movie star and one of my favorites would say to Amanda–YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH
And if you think losing all track of resources and assets on a fire is an unusual occurrence, you are dead wrong. All I have to do is remember that my entire hotshot crew was misplaced and forgotten about on a potentially deadly desert fire deep in the Mohave Desert for the entire duration of the fire.
I have already told that story here on this thread. It was the Crossman Peak Fire Of 1980, under the management of the BLM Lake Havasu Field Office in Arizona. Just as a reminder, a resupply slick found us by accident after three days while returning to their heli base late one evening.
I mean…how many times do I have to write that all campaign fires are managed by CHAOS for at least the first 48 hours and many never make a successful transition to being managed by humans.
I don’t know what RTS is thinking? The only people who wouldn’t want to wear cheap, easily and widely available yesterday’s technology GPS transponders are SLACKERS. Wait a minute…it’s all starting to come into focus for me now that I put it that way
And unlike the Sonoran Desert, the Mohave Desert is nothing but ugly…and mean, and really ugly.
Can you imagine what would have happened if one of us would have been bitten by what is considered to be the most aggressive and deadly rattlesnake there is because it has the most potent venom for a rattlesnake, the Mohave Green. It would have been a very long and painful death without any medievac coming…ever. After three days, the flesh of whatever appendage was bitten would have turned to liquid snake soup and the venom probably would traveled to the heart.
Now that I think about it…I should have sat the crew down under whatever shade was available and left them there until they missed us and came looking. Except the thing is…I didn’t know they lost us. I thought they were just leaving us alone to conduct some epic backfires of some major drainages.
Whoops,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_scutulatus
And I know this detail isn’t important to anyone but me, but that gym the BLM put us in after coming off a fire in the middle of the fuckin’ Mohave Desert in the middle of summer…they couldn’t figure out how to turn on the air conditioner.
Since it was during the summer time when nobody in blazing hot Lake Hava Su City goes anywhere near that heat magnet, that had a computerized control system that refused to obey manual override commands to TURN ON.
That is why I was so pissed off, it didn’t have anything to do with losing us in the desert, those kind of things happened all of the time on campaign fires and we didn’t think anything of it at the time. Big fires are managed by CHAOS…period. Even under the best of circumstances, that is why it is so important not to have NUT jobs like Marsh in command. And if you think that gym was hot before we got there, you should have been there after they crammed hundreds of stinking firefighters into it.
I was also very interested in that whole GMIHC motel point controversy because in the 10 years I was a hotshot, I never stayed even ONE (1) night in a motel. We were mistreated everywhere we went by everybody all of the time, and we kinda liked it that way because we thought that’s how hotshots should be treated. It fit in with our identity and who and what we thought we were. We were ground pounders and grunts and damn proud of it.
I was trying to give you the Readers Digest version of my story, but I have gone this far, so here is the rest of it. At one point late in the afternoon, I looked around at my crew and I didn’t see the First Pulaski from either Squad 1 or 2. And since you probsbly know the First Pulaski is always the biggest and baddest guy on the crew, but we had two First Pulaski guys who took it to the next level.
They were also the biggest hell raisers on the crew and always at the center of whatever trouble the crew got into. One of them was “Big Wiilie” who worked as a bouncer at a biker bar in Tucson during the off season. The other one had been the 190 pound state wrestling champ for the league with the biggest high schools who we called “Demo”. which was short for demolition.
Anyway…both Big Willie and Demo were no longer where the crew was bedded down in paper sleeping bags on the hard floor, and so I went outside to look around to see if I could find them before the shit hit the fan. I couldn’t see them outside where some guys were hanging out, but I looked down the street and I could see, “The Watering Hole.” And so I walked in that direction, I had an iron clad rule that there was never any alcohol, at any time, for any reason, by anybody from portal to portal of our barracks while on fire assignments, and that was my third year as crew boss, so everybody knew that rule because you know…hotshots and alcohol lead to bad things happening.
So anyway…knowing Big Willie and Demo, I headed for the bar. As I walked in, I could see both of them sitting at the bar with bottles of beer in front of them. When they saw me in the mirror on the back of the bar standing behind them, they froze like deer in the headlights.
I just stood there for a minute…and since it was still early, the bar was so quiet, I think they were the only customers in there. And it smelled so, “not stinking with days of caked on sweat from hundreds of firefighters”, it was dimly lit after the harsh glare of the sun, and it was so cool. Of course they had the entire bar very cool, the cold air wafted over me like a gentle zephyr and my stinking sweat covered body added to the cooling effect as the sweat on me started to evaporate.
And I lost it. I went over and sat down at the bar next to Big Willie and Demo and just stared straight ahead without saying a word. They both slowly exhaled and ordered me my drink of choice…a vodka Collins, which pretty much tastes like lemonade.
I still didn’t say anything because there wasn’t anything to say. After a few minutes I noticed that there were a few more guys from the crew in the bar, after some more time passed, I looked around and almost everybody from the crew was there with us. I told them to be sure and leave “Mother” back at the gym to interface with the overhead and after that, everyone except for my assistant was in the bar.
And the rest…is hotshot legend, it was an epic fuckin’ night. I told them we could stay until after the 10:00 news because of course everyone, including me, wanted to see my interview on TV, and I told them we had to slip back into the gym without the overhead figuring out we were drunk. We were still off the Coconino at that time, and I knew if we got caught, Bill Buck would would have gone ballistic in public, but in private…he would have approved of my decision, under the circumstances.
FYI…I don’t want to sound like I am minimizing the decision I made. We hadn’t been released from the fire and being housed in that gym wasn’t any different than still being at fire camp.
The fire could have escaped that night, and we could have been on our way back out to at 0400 hours the following morning. Or…there could have been another start near there, or anywhere else for that matter and we would have been on our way to it at 0400 hours the next morning as well.
I got lucky and nothing happened and the crew slipped back into the gym as quiet as church mice and went to sleep. Which isn’t an easy thing for a drunk hotshot crew to accomplish under the noses of overhead. Mom was really pissed off because the overhead finally did miss us and he had run out of excuses. He was really stressed out…I didn’t care. It was the only time during my time as a hotshot crew boss I lost it and I didn’t care, but I didn’t that day.
I made an irresponsible decision, just like Eric Marsh did when he took his drunk crew to the Yarnell Hill Fire. I actually expected to be caught and I assumed I would suffer an adverse action, which I would have deserved.
I tell this story because not only it is one of my favorite stories, but in this context, it is a good example of how much Marsh and I actually had in common. The drug and alcohol use and abuse on the GMIHC wasn’t an anomaly…it was standard operating procedure for hotshot crews. All hotshot crews…without exception, including mine. There aren’t any saints on the fireline…just a bunch of sinners who like to fight fire.
All of the guys I wrote about up above are in this crew photo. I am in the back row more or less in the center and Demo is standing next to me on my left.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
But the two I would like you to look at, are Big Willie and Mom. Just look for the biker that is flipping a double bird on either side of Mom’s head who is sitting directly in front of Big Willie.
In the yearly fuckin’ crew photo Willie is flipping a double bird on the Assistant Crew Bosses head…fuckin’ guy was incorrigible. But he and Demo could lead their respective squads like fuckin’ Pulaski pile drivin’ machines.
I already told this story about Big Willie a few years ago, but some people are new here on JD’s experiment in virtual social interaction and crowd sourcing an investigation.
But anyway…we were coming back from a desert fire down on the Tonto and I stopped the bus at this gas station, convenience store and bar combo in this shit hole redneck wide spot in the road called Rye about 20 miles south of RTS’s alma mater of Payson.
So…I always drove the bus unless I was falling asleep because you know…I usually had light duty on fire assignments. And so I was standing there gassing it up while the crew filed in and out of the convenience store buying snacks and drinks.
I wasn’t really paying attention to what was going on, but I was vaguely aware that Big Willie had climbed up into the back of the bus into the tool cage and had jumped back down with a Pulaski in his hands as he walked off.
I got curious and I asked no one in particular, “Where is Willie going with that Pulaski?” One Of the guys replied, “Some rednecks were making fun of his hair when he walked by the bar, so he’s going back to see if they want to fight him.”
Well…needless to say I dropped the hose and spilled gas everywhere as I ran after Willie because I knew he meant it. I caught up with him just as he went through the door and grabbed the Pukaski from him and then pushed him back out of the store towards the bus.
Willie would have chopped those fuckin’ rednecks up, except they all probably had guns on them. In any case, I knew it wasn’t going to end well because Willie was pissed off.
Bill was like my Executive Officer and he did all of the paperwork for the crew…because you know, it bored me to tears.
But it was Bills strong point, he also knew fire because he had been a hotshot for a long time and the crew did what he said on the line, but other than that, I was the disciplinarian in our little family of misfits.
Whoops…I forgot to write the point of that little story. So…the crew called him…”Mom.” while they called me Dad, or Pappy.
Same thing with the GMIHC, they called Marsh…Dad.
Bill is in two photos on this page, Bill is holding his gloved hand up to his face to shield it from the heat during a backfire operation.
And then that is him standing on my left 25 years later during the Battlement Creek Disaster Staff Ride at the monument for Mormon Lake the local fire department and citizens had built at a rest area on the interstate highway. That is Battlement Mesa in the background.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
The other guy on my right is Hardy Blomeke, who was a smokejumper for 30 years out of Missoula after he left the crew at the end of the season the disaster happened. Hardy was my partner on our two man backfire team that day because he was the other crew sawyer.
Clarification,
The reasons I couldn’t call anyone on the radio, is because we were there on the fire early and flown out to what must have been a remote corner of a really big fire. And there hadn’t been any thought of setting up a fire net yet, or time for a BIFC radio cache to arrive.
So…we only had our forest net radios that were analog with maybe six channels, none of which matched with anything in that part of the state or that could trigger repeater stations in the far southwestern part of the state.
And normally, WF can tie in with WF coming from either direction to link up lines Oon a fire. But because it was the Mohave with minimal resource value, they must never have manned up the fire to establish divisions or sectors around the entire fire. And because we left after returning to fire camp, I never found out anything about the fire.
I could have asked, but I didn’t really care about any part of it that wasn’t my responsibility. It must have been one big fire though, because we never even saw or heard a helicopter until that resuply skick accidentally flew over us and landed to ask who the hell we were, much less another person.
It was actually really a lot of fun to be left alone to do our own thing without even reporting to any overhead.
And I would have sat the crew down in the shade, but there was an Arizona Game and Fish Wildlife trick tank on a ridge that had a huge apron that funneled rain water into a huge underground cistern.
We carried enough rats with us for s couple of days plus buttpack snacks, but you can’t carry enough water into the Mohave or Sonoran Deserts to keep you alive in the summertime.
We just slept on the really comfortsble apron at night and fell asleep watching the fire make spectacular runs up different canyons and ridges all around us. It was beautiful.
2. I didn’t get away scot free from going off the reservation though, Bill was really pissed off at me and really me a good ass eatin’ when I got back to the gym. But half way through his tirade, I just shrugged and laid down on the gym floor and went to sleep because I just didn’t care.
Clarification,
When I wrote three days, it wasn’t three full days. We went in on the first, worked that day and the next two and then we were pulled out at the end of the third day.
We tried to get s handle on what was going on with hand line and backfires, which included backfires from natural breaks and black line. But we never did any good, there were canyons and ridges all around us and the fire burned in all directions. all around us as time went by because of the wind and topography.
And eventually the fire in our gigantic zone of operations burned itself out. It must have done that everywhere which happened quite a bit.
A lot of times we were just there and then Mother Nature put the fire out when she was good and ready to let it stop. We were often just hard working little ants that didn’t make any difference in the big scheme of things, but we always gave it our all. But our all was nothing compared to FIRE managed by CHAOS!
And just to be clear, Eric Tarr was an Arizona Department of Public Safety (State Police) Officer who doubled as a medic. He has probably seen way more than his share of horrible deaths and traumatic injuries.
But I doubt if he has ever seen anything like what he experienced on the Yarnell Hill Disaster unless he was in some really serious in places like Iraq or Afghanistan? I wouldn’t want his nightmares for all of the money the Arizona Department Of Forestry saved on that fire by going cheap.
Whoops,
But I doubt if he has ever seen anything like what he experienced on the Yarnell Hill Disaster unless he was in some really serious SHIT in places like Iraq or Afghanistan?
And I think they flew us back to fire camp on the day after they found us by accident and we never went out again because the party was over. I was so pissed off I let the crew get buzzed at a bar called “The Watering Hole” that was just down the street from the crowded, hot, and stinking high school gym they bedded us down in that we snuck out of. There were some babes there that evening who loved firefighters and a really cute waitress who took her top off in exchange for a crew t shirt she then put on. It was an epic night.
That was the only time in my 7 years as a hotshot crew boss I ever went off the reservation, The gym was crowded enough, they didn’t notice an entire hotshot crew leaving for the evening…bunch of fuck ups.
I had been interviewed by the local television station before we left fire camp and we wanted to watch my interview on the 10:00 news at the bar. Thing is…the crew was hootin’, hollerin’, clappin’ and stompin’ their feet hard enough, that nobody heard a word I said except for…”the cactus and the rocks.” I’m pretty sure I gave a good interview though. 🙂
Whoops, I got lost in my story and I forgot to write,
There were some babes there that evening who loved firefighters that we DANCED with because they had a live band. And a really cute waitress who took her top off in exchange for a crew t shirt she then put on. It was an epic night.
The crew requested my two favorite songs to dance to from the Mormon Lake Lodge and I danced with that really cute waitress for those two songs, “Silver Wings” and “Amarillo By Morning.”
“They took my saddle in Houston
Broke my leg in Santa Fe
Lost my wife and a girlfriend
Somewhere along the way”
Fuckin’ epic night.
Oh…and one more thing. That really cute waitress wasn’t wearing a bra either. Only thing is…she outsmarted us by spinning around at the last second before slipping on her clean crew T-shirt somebody had gone back to the gym to get out of his fire pack. There was a lot of hootin’, hollerin’, clappin’, laughin’, and stompin’ of fire boots on the wooden dance floor during the shirt exchange as well. She made a lot of money in tips that night…of that you can be assured.
Oh…I did leave my Number 2 back at the gym to make excuses for us in case they noticed we were gone. Boy howdy…he was really pissed off at me.
Something of the Prison Crew Gary–they did some clearing around my cabin–something Joy negotiated and I paid for. Okay the cookie cutter word some educated idiot dreamed up “defensible space”. I need a space suite for that spaced out junkie that thought up the term. But anyway they told Joy the whole story–they were ordered to stand down as I understood and were taken off the fire because of darkness–people are afraid; of snakes at night now. But we should check with Joy exactly what she was told since number one I have 10% hearing so what is said I miss much of. When it came to work at my cabin, I never saw such a hard working group. They were damn sure hard workers to a man and that was in hot weather and cutting away and loading thick brush. So I am not quite so sure that they were allowed to do what they were sent to do. However clarify it with Joy..
Something that might deter men like that is that I understand they work for slave labor. I have never met a man who will do his best when he works for nothing or a pittance beside a man who is making daily wages. If you are going to put these prisoners on dangerous and hard work then pay them–reforming people with a whip is not always the best way to do things.
I was trying to remember if I read some prisoners were killed on one fire–but you firemen would know. Can not cheat any man that works on a fire out of his honest pay is my way of thinking. Yes I understand we want to penalize people and extract what we can out ;of them saying that is payback for their wrongs. China uses that type cheap labor and we enjoy their junk. This country in my way of thinking has about 20% of its prisoners that absolutely belong there. Beyond that it gets pretty iffy. Many of those people are there for petty shit like having possession of marijuana and dope addictions, etc which in a manner could be remedied. Of course many are totally useless individuals as far as productive lives–maybe they would be good artists and maybe not–but again live and let live. But those that want to produce–reward them for good work so they do not turn bitter and loose hope.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 7, 2018 at 11:09 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> you can buy the book or hear DJ Helm speak here:
“Fire On The Wind”
A public presentation featuring speaker DJ Helm
November 29, 2018 at Yavapai College
https://youtu.be/_rOEqKE9awk
Thank you for recording that public presentation by DJ Helm.
I watched the whole thing.
Nothing new, really… but DJ Helm confirms ( again ) the points that were made
when she and her husband Lee were interviewed for that article that came out just
before this years’s 2018 5th anniversary of the Yarnell tragedy.
1. Despite all the hullabaloo about the Boulder Springs Ranch being all ‘fireproofed’ and ‘firewised’ and it being touted as such a good example of that… turns out Lee and DJ Helm never even gave that a thought when they designed and built their property. They just wanted a low maintenance area, Lee Helm just wanted clear space to store their follies and artwork, and that Lee Helm just hated weeds and had one of his golf carts constantly set up for ‘weed patrol’. She joked about how the many, many firefighters who would visit the property following the tragedy would constantly compliment them on their ‘firfeproofing’ and ‘firewising’… but she said she would just nod and never had the heart to tell them that was the furthest things from their minds when they designed the property.
2. Despite all the designation of their property as a ‘bombproof safety zone’ for firefighters… DJ Helm confirms ( again ) that probably the only reason THEY survived was because they were in their house, stuffing wet towels under doors to keep the smoke out. If Granite Mountain had actually made it there, they probably would have had to ‘deploy’, anyway, if they couldn’t make it into one of the structures.
3. DJ Helm CONFIRMS ( again ) that it was 11:00 PM on SATURDAY NIGHT when they first received a knock on their door and were asked ( by former Yarnell Fire Chief Pete Andersen and others ) if they could use the BSR as a ‘Safety Zone for firefighters’ and set up an orange ‘pumpkin’ on their property. The time of 11:00 PM Saturday means that SPGS1 Gary Cordes wasn’t even in Yarnell yet. He may have ‘just’ arrived’… but there’s no evidence he was with Chief Andersen when he and the others knocked on the Helms’ door. So the decision to even designate the BSR as a ‘Safety Zone’ was made by Arizona Forestry ICT4 Russ Shumate and others… on HIS shift… and NOT by Gary Cordes during his Sunday morning briefing with Eric Marsh, as had been previously assumed.
4. Despite all the attempts by Mke Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of the SAI team to ‘hide’ the fact that Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson ( along with Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) were even THERE in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… DJ Helm comes right out and NAMES ‘Jason Clawson’ as the firefighter who first walked onto her property from the direction of the deployment site and told her of the GM deaths. Clawson told her he thought they were going to need to ‘get them out’ right away with helicopters ( with not even any thought of there needing to be an investigation first ). DJ Helm gave persmission for that… but that plan then changed to pushing in the dozer road instead because it finally dawned on the fire fighters that those bodies weren’t going anywhere until the YCSO Police did an official investigation of the death site.
5. DJ Helm confirms ( again ) that after the fatalities… one of the ‘officials’ who came out to the BSR ( Incident within an Incident commander Todd Abel? ) came right up to them and said… (quote) “This is a big deal… and we don’t want ANYONE TO KNOW ABOUT IT”. (unquote). Even by that time, however, the news was already spreading everywhere. Jason Clawson himself had already reported the deaths over non-private radio frequencies which were being monitored by the public and the media.
More confirmation of the cover up and again WTKTT reveals it to us. Thanks WTKTT
I am not able to post the link – http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/12/07/Staff-Ride-PART-ONE—Do-The-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-Staff-Rides-by-Arizona-State-Forestry-provide-that-specific-perspective-of-strategy-technology-and-leadership-After-reviewing-the-52-page-Facilitator-Guide—did-you-even-take-that-route-that-day
part two: https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/12/07/Staff-Ride-PART-TWO—Do-the-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-Staff-Rides-by-Arizona-State-Forestry-provide-that-specific-perspective-of-strategy-technology-and-leadership-After-reviewing-the-52-page-Facilitator-Guide—did-you-even-take-that-route-that-day
It would be interesting to know how that Juniper tree saved by the GMHS survived thousands of years and hundreds of wild fires without them. Has anyone hiked to the area and I was wondering if it was in a bouldery area similar to where the Yarnell fire started and Marsh was able to cross the fire edge multiple times without being scorched.
OMGosh…Charlie,is this really you? The MAN…the LEGEND ?
I am not certain it is the same me back from the dead. . My brain seems to work fine–but I am wondering why and how well. I feel well enough–have not changed my views on the GMHS incident. Those young men got screwed and sadly their bosses had them fooled. Reminds me of the Jim Jones affair in a way since he had a bunch of folks fooled. His pipeline to God got a lot of folks killed–only his was deliberate–this killing of the GMHS is a case of negligent homicide.
I am working off my phone as a mobile hot spot. The uploads are so slow that the captcha changes before the post is completed unless I keep it short. Maybe a good thing.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+136%3A1–9
Hey Sonny
Happy 75th Birthday 🎂
In this scripture they mention your Irish gods????
Have a beautiful BIRTHDAY
Thanks Joy that is now 75 and 5 days and counting. It was a good day for me–found a good boxwood stove made in US and was able to get it home, cut a hole in the wall and get the stovepipe through and even cut some wood up. Does it ever feel good and warmed up my bed room and bathroom so I could enjoy a hot bath without facing the cold.
That fireplace did pretty good for the main room but did not pass through to my bedroom. Problem solved and I am reminded how much better US made stoves are. I had before purchased a china brand when we were in Arizona but the fit, the casting and etc were terrible. The Chinese are smart people–they sell the junk to Americans and keep the good stuff–buy US themselves. But the US is guilty of similar–When Coke could not sell the cyclamates and chemicalized cokes that were banned here, those leftovers were sold in Mexico where it was acceptable to drink that crap. Coke is pretty powerful stuff–when I was working for Charlie, I would do weekends at Johnny Graham’s truck stop. Johnny had me fixing truck tires and in those days you had to break the bead by hand. It had a metal wedge setup that you would hammer in and around the bed between the rim ring and the tire. Needless to say it was a workout and I did not need to pay a Gym a hundred a month to stay in shape. But some of those tires would stick like glue and it would have been a greater work out if it were not for Coke. Just pour coke around the bead and let it set a while–That coke would eat the rust or whatever was holding the bead from breaking. Joy and I did meet Johhny Graham’s son–also named Johnny Graham. They sold their truck stop at Road Forks, NM and now it is abandoned.
But I did not come here to talk about that or this good boiled potatoe smothered in virgin olive oil and salted. Backed by a green tea sweatened with mesquite honey–now that is cuisine.
Yes the torching of that area of the Shrine did happen–someone forgot to delete the video or did not know it was on for a while. The result was some people that know wild land fire fighting saw it as well as myself and Joy who did refer it to me to view.
So why was The Peeples Valley Chief so evasive and why was he never interviewed by the investigators? Or Perhaps he was and that was forbidden like the video that showed the drip torches. They did forget to erase the video where his Peeples Valley Water truck is shown leaving the area. Albeit it is shown only for a few seconds and Joy had to stop the frame to be able to read the big letters identifying it.
So here is what happened with Joy–She wanted records of what they had done at Yarnell–He said we have no records. Joy filed a FOIA and they dragged their feet like a donkey with a broken leg. Joy being a stickler and up on the law reminded him that legally he was required to produce records. He said the State or FS had taken his records so she needed to go to them. She did go to them and they said he had to produce records, it was not their problem Well your department can be fined pretty heavy and I think there would be a criminal charge of sorts–check with Joy– for not producing them within a certain length of time.
I think Joy worked at getting the records for about two years–and I do not know if she ever did get them–maybe she will inform us if so.
And you can bet if she did the major part of those records will be redacted–and perhaps that Chief did not even bother to record his actions at Yarnell–that would be against the law I think, but perhaps not in Yavapai County where some of the good old boys work their magic.
The fact that the Peeples Valley Chief had said they were not even in that Shrine Area tells us that he had something to hide. The fact that Joy pinpointed his water truck and Mr. Brandon had made a talk threw a monkey wrench into his testimony. What it did is lay enough suspicion that now we need to know exactly what they were doing in the Shrine and was it Peeples Valley playing the drip torches onto bushes that day of death. Did they earlier begin farther up the canyon and were ending their burn out right about the Shrine? Those questions beg answers–and if their efforts had nothing to do with trapping the men, then why hold back the facts and evidence? That guy wanted to arrest us for ;hiking up to the top of the Weavers–I wondered how he could not be arrested for getting paid for a type 6 when he knew he had a type 5 in action at the Yarnell fire. Are these people above the law–or is this type graft going on at a much larger scale so the honchos that do the big money deals are not going to rock the boat.
It was reported the half a million gallons of the poison retardant were dropped in the first fire. Only one or two thousand gallons in the Fall River Oregon killed 6 miles of aquatic life–some 20,000 fish were killed. So any amount has effects on life–and do not think only fish suffer. Ammonia is a major lung killer and whole cities have been evacuated when tank cars burst. But I wonder if anyone took accounting of the real amount dropped there,. We saw jumbo jet loads–but what can even a jumbo jet carry? Ten thousand you think? If so you would need 50 runs of the Jumbo Jet to drop that much retardant–How many runs were actually made?
It is easy to bilk Uncle Sam when he gives carte blanch to the FS. It would be a fine thing for someone to be a whistle blower and let us know what is really going on with that money. Are they honest? We want to believe it–still when I look at what Peeples Valley was doing (and I know they were also switching with Yarnell so they could get out of town pay) Then perhaps we should start looking into the accounts and seeing if the people are truly getting what they are paying for.
I have finished that potatoe–feel a bit refreshed from a hot bath–so I will listen. Dr. Ted says generally people are on the up and up and I agree, but we need the JD’s in the world to make sure that it remains that way.
Now more about the Jumbo Jet–It can drop up to 20,000 gallons of liquid. The 737 will be able to drop 4000 gallons . The cost is about $50,000 per day setting on the tarmac and $22,000 per hour when in use. The PhosCheck costs from $2.50 to $3.50 per gallon. The cost of fighting wild fires was a record 2 billion in 2017 and looks like about 3 billion this year. The President wants about 5 billion available to the FS for fighting fires.
The public likes to see the orange crap dropped. It is pretty and they believe it is really helping. Facts are that the stuff does no good in extreme wind conditions and and is only useful in low vegetation areas. If a crew can not get in immediately after a drop the drop is useless. If you looked at Yarnell and its extreme winds that would have been a great example of 500 thousand gallons of tax payer dollars down the drain so that the FS looked good to the people. Somebody earned some good money and did the incident commander undoubtedly took a trip to Hawaii after the drop?
Some incident commanders tell it like it is–generally a waste of taxpayer dollars. More than 50% of retardant drops were jumped–only 2-5% of non retardant use got out of control. So you begin to see that this is another situation that involves graft.
Marsh was mad because the drops were off from the small planes–they have to drop so high due to wind currents over the mountains that the crap comes down too thin. But even thick drops in the wind are useless, well not–people like to see the colors and are awed by the display of the agent orange like substance dropped on their houses. But the retardant companies and the FS honchos continue and will when they are in a billion dollar industry.
It reminds me of Uranium Mining in a way–no one gives a shite when there is money to be made–deadly stuff to the environment and health, yet we need more out there. Chernobyl and Japan were great eye openers–or were they? People continue to want to use the deadly radioactive substances and pollute the environment with them. This goes right along parallel with the retardant dumps. How often have they told you that retardant dumped on hot embers creates a cyanide gas–not enough to kill you instantly perhaps but guaranteed to have ill effects on your health down the line. Money–follow the money and you will see the greed blossom from the bottom up–who is immune from such action as the waste and pollution when it has blossomed into a multi billion dollar wind fall.
Yes, Happy Birthday 🎈🎂🎁🎊🎉 you Amazing Irishman! ☘️
Thanks Gary–3/4 of a century isn’t bad.. Though we have seen many troubles and incidents we have survived to live another day and do another good work. Yours work will a blessing to those young souls who dare to become wild land fire fighters. A dead hero is not good when he should have been alive. It is the education you give to the young ones that will certainly save them in their times of trial. One thing you stressed was that the young man should not depend upon those so called security blankets for survival. I wonder if that was not a factor in the deaths of the 19–too much faith in the safety blankets.
Strangely they were headed to what they thought was a safety zone at the Helm’s Ranch when in fact they were only 70 yards from a boulder area. The area where they deployed directly to the boulder area was less dense than any of the other directions they had to navigate. I am certain those blankets may have helped in some situations but had they known how useless those things were in a manzanita fire then I think they would have made a dash for the boulders and perhaps as well they would have kept the boulders in mind as a possible safety zone. No one speaks about that but many have seen how close they were to that huge area of boulders almost totally devoid of vegetation.
I celebrated today by getting a long black leather coat and a pair of Jack Boots. The boots fit so well I though I might go hiking. But for now it may be a single Guiness and relax. I did watch a Jack Nicholson movie I had not seen–that guy can make a bad movie look good. I can’t figure where he would fit in a true documentary about the GMHS though.
The only evidence on the backfire that I am aware of was a video Joy pointed out to me in the Library at Yarnell shortly after we were able to return. It is circumstantial evidence that I would swear to as to what I saw in that video. The reason I would is because we both saw two men on the left side of the Shrine road lighting bushes with drip torches. This is indelible on my memory because we had to return to the Shrine Road to make sure that rock foundation was actually what in place as in the video and as we had remembered. Eventhough we positively identified the exact area the torches were being used, we also took a trip to Peeples Valley to make sure there was not an identical rock foundation along one of the dirt roads there. There is no such foundation along any other road. Joy tells me she had learned that Woodsman also had seen the video. That video clip was redacted by someone because we later could not locate it again. However, Joy was able to locate an extention of the clip that showed the wind factor just as in the earlier clip with trees swaying in the wind. That is still available and shows the Peoples Valley Water truck exiting the same area. It is known that Brandon that worked in that area made a talk about their work in the Shrine area and Joy would be able to tell you about that since she got the information from Dr. Anderson, a man on the Yarnell fire board who hosted the talk. Dr. Anderson has since passed as has about 20% of the Yarnell population since the two Yarnell wild fires. I will also note that I was there when Joy interviewed and recorded the then Peeples Valley firechief. He stated he did not know Brandon and no such person worked for Peeples Valley Fire Department. We later learned that Brandon had worked in that small department for 15 years. We also learned that the then Chief was reporting his equipment as a notch higher than it was–something again that Joy had detected. She knew he had a Type 5 but was getting paid for a Type 6. He explained that the department got more money that way. He is no longer Chief there but he said he would have arrested both of us had he been up on the Weavers where we were. He did not know that Joy had covered her tracks there by asking the Yarnell fire department if it were permissible to go to the fire edge. She wanted to be sure the area was cleared of any prospectors or hikers that she had known to frequent the area as well as see if there was any indication if people in Congress, AZ might be in danger.
Personally I was not going to go along to see the fire edge and tried to convince Joy that it was not a good idea. When I saw she was packing up to go on her own, I decided to get up at that ungodly hour of 3AM to accompany her. I am glad I did because I am certain Joy would have met her demise as did the GMHS crew. As it turned out the 40 minute delay it took to get back to Joy to convince her to get her boots on and follow me nearly was our demise anyway. We later learned that we beat the fire out of killing us by only about ten minutes. Coming out, we both were near heat stroke condition in the 106 degree temperatures and had we not encouraged each other to keep moving we would have rested along Akley’s property just ten minutes too long. His whole area burned intensely since the fire swept right around Glen Isla through that rather dense vegetation just west of the town. In retrospect, I can remember that Joy wanted to spend more time after we went through a particularly difficult bouldery area. I pointed out that the copters were already taking out body bags. They were actually empty water bladders but looked like body bags. I was trying to encourage her to keep moving and I did not know it was almost like a prophecy since I had already said when we passed the men going up to the fire edge that they looked like they were on a death march. None of the smiling and cajoling protrayed on the movie. It was already damn hot and you could see how strained those men were in those yellow uniforms.
I would have no trouble taking a lie detector test on what I saw that included not only a video but a document that had set aside the area of a half section including the area they died in on June 16, 2013 as a keep out highest restricted area for fire danger. It was signed and sealed by some high official. At the time we had no idea that things like that could and would be redacted and taken off line. Had Joy known of the FS tactics, she certainly would have copied those items. But again, I would testify under oath and on my Mother’s grave that I saw both things, yet the magicians of the FS somehow managed to do their rabbit tricks.
I have no idea whether that Shrine burn out had anything to do with the demise of the men but it certainly was being done. My eyes did not deceive me and the effort we made later to verify the location made the incident permanent on my mind. What we did not get was the exact time they were doing that which would make all the difference in determination if it had been a factor. Certainly the winds were already up to the 20-40 mph velocities and the wind had already changed direction directly from the Shrine area right up to the death basin which is only about a mile and a half from the Shrine area where they were burning.
Gary has said that is what we do, burn baby burn and a burn out would not be unreasonable in that area above the Shrine if you believed the winds were to continue toward Peeples Valley to the North East. It was the terrible reversal which Marsh and others in Charge knew would happen that became the killer situation for the GMHS. It was known that the men at the Shrine had no inkling as to where the GMHS crew were. In the extended video you see the men saying where are those guys?
You look at the overall effort and you see so many blunders. Sad that the bosses would kill their crew that way knowing the conditions, weather and so forth.
I believe that the time those men took to cut out around themselves was the time that they would have had to find themselves safe among the boulder field only 70 yards to the south of the spot they chose to try out their safety blankets. That field was more than 99% devoid of vegetation and had an area approximating a football field. There were caves under the boulders that would put men completely below the surface heat. Why did I choose the boulders rather than vegetation areas when coming off the other side? Joy cursed me later for that but I knew that if that fire did come over the hill we could use those giants to keep us alive. But common sense is not always available to the bosses. Some even said that Marsh might have been choked up with some of the smoke of that Datil bush that affects the mind and is found among the manzanita. Something was affecting his thinking–and that goes for Steed and a few bosses above those
I had to get up to stoke the fireplace and fry myself a baloney sandwitch. Add a jalapeno and ketchup and it isn’t bad. But also on my mind was the burn out or perhaps backburn might be the proper term-either way that I saw in progress as Joy had summoned me to see of firemen using drip torches above the Shrine area on the now missing video.
One thing I remeber in the interview that I witnessed when Joy questioned the Peeples Valley Fire Chief (no longer Chief) so the new one was not interviewed but was around at some of the interview–the old chief said he was not involved in the Yarnell Fire. Something to that effect that he was out of town or in another area–well Joy has the exact recording of what was said. Joy also had somewhere told me that she had discovered that there was also another Phoenix area fire department in the area,. Yet she said they were never interview by anybody or if they were no record or substance of it was made public.
A burnout in the Shrine area? It absolutely makes sense and would have been the right thing to do. Up that canyon the only thing to be sacrificed was an abandoned ranch setup that used to house wayward recovering priests. But to burn out that area would protect all of Yarnell proper and maybe it did save that area directly east of the burn because most of Yarnell proper was left usscathed. Consider that a dozer line was attempted at Glen Isla so had it been effected then even Glen Isla might have had a burn out that would have been a saver of that area. It was the wind change that burned some of the Shrine or that would have been saved as well.
We saw that Chief Ben Palm used the same tactic to “save Yarnell” for which he got much good write up in the 2015 fire. It was similar to the 2013 death fire in that it was headed off away fr0m Yarnell in an eastwardly direction and over a mountain approximately two miles. That burn out cleared a lot of brush near Yarnell and a large retardant drop along the burnout along with the wind direction stopped any backward progress into housing along where they were making the burn out (or would you firemen call it a back burn?
But what Joy and I witnessed on video of the men using drip torches above the Shrine makes all the good sense of what would have been done to protect Yarnell and those houses to the north of downtown Yarnell including the Library and down to housing near Phil’s Storage Units. Homes in that area were saved–there was a boulder mountain behind those residences and also the wind reversed away from those areas.
I think any wild land fire fighter boss would look at the situation and say yes absolutly burn out that area and you would protect the major part of Yarnell. Perhaps they even knew there was a likely reversal of winds, and that was a good alternative to get the area cleared before they did reverse. Now these are my layman’s look at the situation so I can take criticism and perhaps someone will say no it does not make sense that those men would want to clear that area. Yet since I did see those videos and have no reason to lie about it I do know they were doing just that. Now I can also understand why that Peeples chief wanted to maintain his crew was nowhere in the Shrine area and why if as Joy said there was also other firemen in the area that were never spoken about–because the burn out was directly below where the men were killed. Of course it brings in a big question–and why the hell were those video’s removed from U tube and whereever else they were posted? Why was the restriction paper removed dated June 16,2013. Why were so many threatened and told to keep their mouths shut, ever Blue Ridge people that are called Blue River in the movie. This whole affair stinks to high heaven and is a blight on the wild land fire fighting profession simply because no one wants to own up to the truth even though it involves 19 needlessly killed people and jeopardizes the lives of future wild land fire fighters.
So tell me if you believe that it would not make sense to have a burnout or back-burn in the Shrine area. I believe they were doing what would have been proper procedure at the time–but in fact someone might not have taken into consideration that an eminent wind reversal would trap some men and even burn a good portion of Glen Isla. The cabin I had purchased at the time by the way was in the boulders and even though had no defensible space, survived. You see the boulders are handy to have around you. Joy did after the fire hire the prison crew to come in and make defensible space–a cabin closer to the brush did burn within a 100 ft. of the cabin. The boulders again I say if the size of a football field –the cabin only had maybe 25 yards of boulders around it– but yes I can see how those men would have survived in that boulder area beside their deployment site.
Good night–common sense goes a long ways–was that Ben Franklin that said that or was he just a great practitioner of the fact.
WOW again, definitely going to have to sleep on this one. Just reading it made my head hurt.
Although it sounds like your sandwich needed some Grey Poupon to me?
I had written this to Joy–She as many of you on this IM site have worked their minds and given their valulable time and resources in the good effort to expose the truth of what happened at Yarnell. Closure to the Yarnell incident will only come after the truth is fully realized and the responsible parties for the deaths of the GMHS crew are owned. I had written this to Joy but somehow it strikes home with me and perhaps will strike home to some that detest her and others that continue to hammer at the wrongs that were done at Yarnell during the Wildland Fire of late June, 2013. I have copied and pasted here from an Email to Joy. I applaud all your efforts–I am certain even Steed and Marsh and certainly the 17 unjustly killed do from their graves.
Tex Gilligan
8:55 AM (8 minutes ago)
to Joy
Would not be my cup of coffee either. This desert is just right for me–maybe a little more isolated but this world his increased in people–When I was a teen out there west of Lordsburg there was no I-10 and cars were now and again say every five minutes two cars might pass on the old Highway. Now it is a virtual freeway with a car every second as I count right now. That means the world is filling up with people, at least in the cities and that is the change in 50 years–you can imagine another 50 years if the world makes it that far without a nuclear war. Look at Paris right now rioting and we have the Guatemalans and South Americans ready to break through to this country. The anglos that took this place away from the Indians, Spaniards, Mexicans and Englishmen are destined to hand it back although it may be a land tainted with nuclear fallout. It is inevitable the final destruction that certainly happened during the flood caused by aliens who created us and again sometime down the line there is certain evidence of whole cities wiped out by nuclear destruction. Certain histories even record the events and according to those stories it was also alien sources that had the technology. We are no more than cattle to some of the Gods–aliens with higher technology and when they have been known to monitor our military sites, we know they are keeping a close watch on our advances. I do believe the biblical predictions in the book of revelation speak to the eventual outcome of things on earth and that is not pretty. Whatever beliefs we hold, people will have little say to prevent the inevitable. The gods are similar to Marsh and any headstrong person bent on doing what he or she intends to do. Hubris they call it. Remember the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah–no amount of pleading by Lot could save a those towns and they got melted people and all–even Lot’s wife when she looked back into the radiation. The god’s have it down and are the final decisions–whether they tell the truth or withhold the truth is only known and up to them–we are like cattle to them and at the whims of our creators. Well perhaps a hybrid like Jesus is on our side, we have hope at least that a half god, half human would see our plight. And then again we only go by stories interpreted from greek written thousands of years ago and interpreted for an English King James who was another Trump type.
The whole of religion leaves out the thousands of stone tablets that Sitchen and others have interpreted from cuneiform. Those predate the bible by thousands of years and there has been a cover up there because like the alien influence it affects the powers that be position during the present era. People that are in power do all possible things to remain there–there is something in the human psyche that cherishes power–and kids say and are encouraged to be somebody–someone in charge–be the president–be the lawyer, judge, cop, FBI, Drug Enforcer, Fireman saving others and so on. We all have it, some with very high degrees of control desires. Rapists and serial killers are among those high control freaks as you could easily point out in Hitler, other despots and the Trump and Hillary alikes.
Henry David Thoreau saw through the makings of these ways–and did a stint in the local jail for his independent ideas–He did not like control people, did his cabin by his own hand and kept a simple life living off the pond and simple ways to food gather. He saw the tax people as another group setting themselves up to run the show and control others. He was correct in his opinions there–did not think much of the Irish–or those he saw who would work their asses off–something he could not understand. He counted the brain work as a better occupation. Perhaps he was right, I was always busy with physical labor but mixed it with mind work as well–but so did he, at least in providing himself with a shelter and planting some potatoes and beans. Too bad he died at 45 with TB –our science had not advanced well enough to provide him with anti-biotics that could have given him a longer time to write more good books and share his insights and opinions on people habits. People are generally followers and some will even go kill you if you disparage the king or queen. Look at that Arab –his henchmen had no qualms in killing the reporter that kept hounding the Arab that Trump keeps relating to and saying he has no evidence that the guy would have his followers kill someone just for calling him a dirtbag. Trump would do the same and has a lot of hate for people that do not agree with his agenda. If you knock power figures you collect a lot of enemies–not only the dirtbag power monger but all his cohorts and friends. But you know that by now since you have felt the pressure and there are some that would push you into the fire if they knew they could get by with it–or even take the heat of prosecution if they felt they would be applauded and awarded for their deed.
I am left alone mostly because I am already twice dead and not nearly so dangerous to their methods as you are. You abilities to work with people and discover things approximates that of WTKTT, Gary, Ted, Fred and others with stalking and study skills to expose people–yea your persistence is unequaled as well. The turtle always wins the race when there is much grass to divert the path of the rabbit. There are so many that wish you would just go away–well IM, your blog, etc are there to stay even long after you are gone. Yet there are times you need to take a break–like the priest who has toasted too many deaths–a sabbatical is in order.
Oh hey Gary- I had the best laugh today.
I have not really read your content fully but surely got notified and not Pony Express –
Gotta love technology, eh. I was here on and off today with screen open but was really busy elsewhere and my voice is about gone – not ill – just a whole lotta YH Fire talking and presenting…
has it been a year already, pal?
Merry Christmas to you too. 🙂
I always live for your Holiday Greetings!
You Rock!
You must have missed my cyber presence, eh.
I am here for you, man – top dog .Sorry for my absence but I am really tied up in learning your Fire Industry – as time nears I will be presenting at one of these conferences and you will learn more that day and I will place that video live –
Coming from the man who does not send Christmas Cards-
This was one of the best ones I got so far.
Thank you. Truly.
Again, this girl (ME) is not doing a movie or book even though as the eyewitnesses we have been asked but I have a blog that comes secondary to my daily life as THANKS TO YOU I am busy from conference to conference (Fire/Weather/Foresters/etc) this 2018 and then I will train and keep training in that Fire Industry and get all cozied up with credentials
You have inspired me.
I mean I was going to see how far I could take housewife hiker into Eternity but thanks to you I have been training to be a law and fire investigator.
Thanks, dude for encouraging me all these years…
“You’re the shit” (head) @ times 😉
soft giggles.
I am with so many posts pending awaiting public records and fact check notifications and three posts after long hours and weeks invested just vanished but yeah I will keep at it until the day I die every day working on this life long sharing on my blog.
The next post glazes a little on our favorite Jeff Whitney…
I mean Jeff … yeah I am writing direct to you Jeff here… when you were at all these conferences recently did you get that feel when you walked in your office that final day and saw that folder – which one to do – ??? – sign the resignation? or get terminated? Yet I think Jeff was not too taken back about it. I think he knows how much he over did his time in the Administration budget/finances area(s) – right, Jeff 😉
Gary, mentions the Prescott Cabal yet he failed to mention a genius in his own right …Jeff was sooooo successful to get YH Fire settlements and save the State millions yet LOOK HOW MANY MILLIONS he over-budgeted and spent since the YH Fire? They were better off letting the YH Fire go to trial than to keep him on board financially ….and the ridiculous job positions and tasks under him…ha ha ha…”oh my”… how many millions, Jeff, over budget? You look at the public records between the GMHS loved ones and Whitney from emails to documents to text messages ( yes, even text messages ) and I take my hat off to Mr. Whitney. Can you sense my sarcasm? (soft giggles)
Jeff more than likely does not care he is not the State Forester guy…he knew when he walked in the office it did not look like a normal typical day of his…and Sue Black is another…
However, why I have not been around much is because I am trying to get funds (the rest of our blog team’s life savings) for the closing of escrow on my theme of my blog SESAME STREET TO SHRINE CORRIDOR –
Chung finally placed it for sale and she asked for $995,000 for 160 acres and seemed offended at the cash deal of $500,000 but that was all that could be done at that second but we gathered together and we have to come up with $574,500 cash by the 20th of December Escrow Closing. The stock market screwed are beginning total – we had IT – which the deal is $850,000 ($600,000 of it cash on the 20th of December) and so I have been crazy busy trying to get the last additional and tying in the funds to make it happen. God-willing it does or it was a hefty price loss….because anyone knows you take investments out- you gotta pay taxes on that in April – “oh my”
The reason why I wanted those records on the Staff Rides was based on this huge land purchase and where the Wildland Firefighters/Firefighters (WF/FF) have first hand told me about their staff ride experiences which did not match the formal documents I am making that post on my blog tonight.
The earnest funds are with land owner Chung on her 160 acres where she listed in recent times the theme of my blog; the Sesame Street to Shrine Corridor , for $995,000. We want a type of true Lessons Learned section to those Weavers versus what currently is being indoctrinated to the current and future and retired Fire Industry.
Our team had the projected amount when going into this and in cashing in Investments and a loss in the market/taxes and not being able to use one source … has our “lessons learned” team at the eleventh hour of our Gracious Lord in prayer and I am presenting this public because God has led me to share this with the World the pureness and the need of $228,377.66 out of the $850,000 purchase. .
If there is anyone with the requisite funding expertise tools – or funding – to help us achieve such goal by (COB) the 20th of December than please reach me. If you sit with us and hear the blue print – this is a historic decision.
If anyone is tired of seeing the current Fire Industry system making the world become an investigator – may you be a firefighter or the common civilian – versus relying on the Fire Industry supposed “experts” hired to do such a task for Wildland Fire Fatalities Investigation, Staff Rides and Lessons Learned.
This could be a worthwhile and valuable spot to create a true satellite – a Lessons Learned type Center to train current Wildland Firefighters and Hybrids and as well branch out to help our Veterans.
The team _ solid for truth -have placed their entire life into this. We are dedicated in the long haul to do this.
Are you feeling the same way? then reach me.
And furthermore, I take your metaphorical which is spelled incorrectly as a pure joke.
I know you and I know you love me soooo very much. ( like a proud papa ) but to place me in that touch down field you had me on…come on…someone is on the slippery slope this week. (cough, cough)
I mean people were texting and emailing floored by your words and I said that’s Gary’s style of his yearly Christmas Card for me. You usually work it in around or by December 5th but close enough.
if Sonny sided with me then I know something is ???…he always sides with you, Gary and Wtktt
I am right there with you , man.
Time to look at Thomas Taylor, 30 Mile Fire Survivor, as a hero not what is going on currently and maybe you should be at this conference with me where he presents I think soon to help you heal -because you got some heavy stuff going on from a prior Fire Fatality – I feel it.
I was told by Sonny our credentialed circumstantial sharing is showing documents but if you feel a certain way… God Bless you …Sonny said what you said correlates with what we said except we on the blog not we Sonny and Joy but my contributing others – we are placing some of the highest folks in the Fire Industry’s email threads and soon I plan to show some of that Prescott Cabal you mentioned and there is a lot I have not read of your comment and I was shared to read multiple but I have a flight soon so “pause” for now…yet some of your glaze came off you were “shit-stirring” but hey Gary Happy Holidays and Happy New Year
Oh yeah it would not sound like Sonny…if I did not finish his sentences… “Why you might want to add this as far as some bosses that do not care for their men. When I worked at the church Rock mine for United nuclear out of Gallup New Mexico, signs would come down on the restricted areas during swing and graveyard shift. I know this because I worked a double shift and went to swing shift from day and found myself working in an area that it had been restricted during the day. The reason they restrict areas in uranium mines it’s because of high radiation and poor ventilation. By happenstance I was in the Silver Spur Saloon and Gallup when I happened to shut down by one of the shifter bosses. I asked him why the shines came down and restricted areas on swing and graveyard. He replied that the money is that high grade and they could disregard the ventilation problem during swing and graveyard because the mine inspectors work only during the day shift. It goes to show you that the company and the bosses could care less about your health when it came to making money. Of course that boss was just a shifter but you know that he had to kowtow to a supervisor and on up the line. So there was a bunch of culprits there just as you saw in the Yarnell catastrophe. Never mind that I’m looking forward to five more cancers cut out on the 19th of November. Two of them are pretty bad with one of them draining and has already ate a hole in my cheek. I’m missing an eyebrow and a half my nose. So what are they play the world’s smallest fill my heart bleeds for you. You can see that I bought in to the idea that low-grade uranium won’t you hurt you. Yeah. Have you ever heard anything about my brother having a cancer. He never had one nor have either of my sisters, yet I’ve had between 20 and 30 remove from my body. It just goes to show you that if you can help the man who is on the front doing the Dirty Work with one thing, do not necessarily trust your boss. use your own instincts and judgment. You may lose your job but you may save your life and 17 young men would be alive today had they protested being ordered into a certain death trap. Before the Irish became Catholic they worship the Celtic goddess Danu .These days the only Celtic peoples are in Ireland and Scotland. The Celtics otherwise such as a British have been absorbed into other peoples. It is said that God created a mad people. For all their Wars are merry and all their songs are sad. I had to chuckle at that. Because they’re truly are some sad Irish songs like Danny Boy. But at the same time I’ve heard some pretty good uplifting Irish music. Well that’s where your intelligence come from and your persistence Joy. You are merry at war with your enemies but you’re songs are sometime sad. You can’t hide that Irish blood that you didn’t know you had.”
You are funny, Sonny. Gary would you say I am much like what John P once said
“Useful as a screen door on a submarine”
That is your take on me?!…I am okay with it because I know every day my life is dedicated to this YH Fire area.
Even with a broken wing, flight can take place with a bit of light. 🙂
Is this another fair warning, Gary, that satellite imagery will be removed again from the official web-pages? That would be our second Anniversary…right? (soft wink)
Your numbered points are causal factors in the disaster you said yet I am not done with my blog and skimming your points I do have documents and public records that does share it clearer so I know you want it on your time but you cannot imagine how many hours it takes to change a pdf to jpg then convert audio into GoldWave or render VEGAS on an old old old pc or say for example I have a high up Wildland Firefighter who said Eric Marsh was a LeatherWorker and knew Lee Helms yet Mrs. Helm stated they did not know Eric before the fire and Lee does not do leather work so you see it is very important to check all areas and allow the public to do their own assessing but as I heard the content I explained as she said the Munch and Learn content and the book was that the YH Fire was what it looked like coming toward them is what she wrote in the book and how she interpreted it and I explained over time my blog will provide the actual real time radio net where YCSO states where fire reached with perfect time stamps – the world will be shocked by certain inserts there – plus I will be sharing the fire behavior from the Helm surveillance cameras as well as it was shown to me and I did inquire if I can match to original footage vs. redacted ones. Maybe fill in some “swiss cheese” moments on the footage. So maybe Gary you will be alive still to see it but I am not dumping data just making sure what I do place out creates “lessons learned” because that matters to me more than dumping crap out like NIFC does on that stupid 10 and 18 video.
Now I really did dread to even comment on the “mouth” you had as ugly as it sounded and I cringed when I had my comment sitting awaiting my closing statement and went to do other stuff and came back to it and then you just had to today before my comment posted mention the lady who seems to be very bothered that since June 30, 2013 she has experienced what every spouse dreads or does not want to think about and then there is this blog where if you even see this as a tool to get and gain data – you are causing distress – I was going to give the site up but really there is minimal areas to look for current discussions on YH Fire. I learned a lot from information here and where to get public records or fact check – so I do not have the same view as another on this site where it affects me – No one has the power to hurt you or offend you – you have to really get that – I mean, I learned that from being sensitive in the start with Gary but he has me calloused nowadays that it does not even sting…
I have been to many Wildland , Foresters, Weather and etc conferences in 2018 and I get mix messages on how people perceive and many think like you Gary but I think ratio speaking the numbers are higher to think positive – avoid the negative – and so then the glaze of realism does roll out because I ask both the naysayers for her and the cheer crowd and I ask them as Wildland Firefighters – do I continue on this blog as the eyewitness to YH Fire of putting out the records – they ALL reply hell yeah yet they want and hunger for it to be done in a lessons learned way since many many feel the current system is failing them – I mean look at this crap NIFC placed out for the 10 and 18 ( https://youtu.be/_-9LKkSDVzE )
I hope I answered you and I was simple but lengthy and straight forward with a few gems for you to take home.
Eventually I will fact document and share the entire history before GMHS became GMHS crew –
thanks to Duane’s long time friend who appreciates my efforts.
Gary, it is coming…but then again so is Christmas and your back ache 😉 I will be over in Eric’s old stomping ground areas this month and I heard it is record crazy cold and snow… historic storms
I hope to be back to dig and share on your Number List…try some tonight…
—In closing, Gary, before I head out into an “anything-other-than” Global Warming Winter, I’d like to re-visit one of the more recent observations from the “Most Famous-Ever-Youngest-HotShot-Supe-In-History” (Non-Gender-Specific-Linear-Thinking-Training-As-Supplied-By-USFS). From your 3Dec, 3:26pm… “We fought fire like we would paint a picture by the numbers, we followed the sequence or pattern like we always did. There wasn’t any exponential components in any training or procedures that I was aware of or ever experienced. The threat matrix was always gradual and never dynamic. A small amount of vertical white smoke going straight up at 12:00 = X response.A moderate amount of grey smoke laying over at 1:30 = Y response.A heavy amount of horizontal black smoke laying over at 3:00 = Z response. And that is why I don’t think the fire team could wrap their minds around what they were seeing develop in front of them. There wasn’t a “panic button” in their minds to hit, because the USFS never installed one…“. Yes, the aforementioned excerpt was written about a “Different Fire Than Yarnell” …BUT, HOW, OTHERWISE might the “Shumate Description” of the mid-morning hours of Saturday (29Jun… the infamous hours of between “10 & 12”) be explained IF “nothing dynamic, ever happens” ??? Again… “The threat matrix was always gradual and never dynamic.” I WAS THERE at that Very Dynamic Moment !!! First, how about dealing with “how and why” the THIRD YARNELL FIRE (See, WTKTT comments of 2014 for a more exact description of YARNELL ONE & TWO) was, even, enabled before we move on to the rest of the hours, preceding the Final Tragedy? Perhaps, there are some “Lessons and Capabilities” we can, still, “LEARN FROM” ???
you can buy the book or hear DJ Helm speak here:
https://youtu.be/_rOEqKE9awk
Be away for a bit but left you with some fish food –
No…I’m just not feelin’ it about buying land to access a park they will never let you use for anything they don’t let everyone else use it for and you love to hike, so what is the point? Never mind…don’t tell me, I don’t really want to know. Our alternative Staff Ride is here, on this Blog Of Record.
What the hell are you blathering about? (The Big Lebowski)
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” (The Princess Bride)
I only have one question, “ Have you started smoking crack? Because if you have, you should JUST STOP IT before December 20.”
Well…it is definitely going to take me awhile to figure out what you are up to because after a quick read, I didn’t know anymore than when I started. But I don’t think you are presenting evidence of the backfire coming out of the Shrine area? But maybe I just missed it? But I had to ask,
Gary, you did miss it if you continue to avoid my blog
And you missed the video we spoke about
Woodsman confirmed he saw the video…Sonny and another on IM too and many more
If you need to know who…call me
Been ages since we communicated
NO…YOU ARE SCARING ME. And no, I haven’t been to upyout blog. I don’t want to fall down the rabbit hole and take a chance on the Red Queen cutting off my head.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl89g2SwMh4
I’ll just go ask Alice. It will be safer.
The key words I want you to focus on are;
“WHEN LOGIC AND PROPORTION HAVE FALLEN SLOPPY DEAD”
NO MORE MAGIC MUSHROOMS FOR YOU.! I have seen where it can lead!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0GB5OZZdnCM
From cancelled flights to delays..
Upper management Aviation just keeping us safe
Try to post while waiting…
Hard to via cell
But my very first book I read at age 2 was Alice
I still own same book
https://www.google.com/search?q=orange+book+alice+in+wonderland&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&prmd=sinv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiT0Z2FgZPfAhVFLn0KHfmtAYsQ_AUoAnoECA0QAg&biw=360&bih=518#imgrc=s4avnL1tBI-k-M
“Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat: “we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.”
“How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice.
“You must be,” said the Cat, “or you wouldn’t have come here.
Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
“Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?”
“That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.”
“I don’t much care where –”
“Then it doesn’t matter which way you go.”
“Who in the world am I? Ah, that’s the great puzzle”
“Curiouser and curiouser”
I’m afraid I can’t explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see”
You win…again. Sad.
Oh…and one more thing. Merry Christmas 🎁🎄
right back at you Gary – Merry Christmas 🎁🎄
I just got back from the North Carolina 15th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit and 5th Humans Dimensions and finally got to meet and engage with a good man Tom Harbour who I recently shared his email threads on my blog and now I know what Curtis Heaton meant on these are our friends
This is tough, world, to meet the Fire Industry as I have up close – I almost feel this need to address this – it is not easy Not one person can understand the depth that I almost wanted to redact or remove the AFUE blog thread but then I realized I have to keep pushing forward because of my position of sharing what I had gathered for five plus years.
Tom felt we met in 2013 and if we met in person than it had to be at an event but he said a comment on where’s my hair…I explained…I know we never met one on one like we did this week. I left the talk that I am very apologetic I will have to keep moving forward with the much more email threads to come with his name and others and I am am sorry only because I do like this fella but if I am to be a proper person in sharing I cannot omit just because I like someone. That is what had already happened on this aftermath…I mean ask Craig…this is getting to be ridiculous the many layers of omitting so I cannot start now that I like Tom…I did have some of the odd senses as I walked the stairs up and down (floor 8 of 12) and even Jayson Coil I began to share a message with him but we never did catch up again but I was tied there for helping out on an area so it was secondary but as soon as that message came in I knew more details and I will soon pull another FOIA based on Garrett’s message. Strange that if I never got messages I would never even have the stuff on Tom Harbour so there is someone wanting the missing areas to the front.
Fernanda Santos – I have not corresponded with her since the book came out and the news in this article was sad but so neat to see the ladies closeness thru this all….
https://kjzz.org/content/736567/love-loss-and-phone-number-3-grieving-arizona-women-make-unlikely-connection
Happy Holidays!
I really like this performance by Jefferson Airplane, but I mean…Gee Whiz, do you think Grace Slick could be any higher? Nope.
And people say I am living in the past…HA!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KZI62qNmScc
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNT8XkVoOKE
And I saved the best for last because it contains an important anti nuclear message.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=12w5wykucgk
Your welcome.
Joy,
An unexpected and unplanned backfire coming out of the nowhere and engulfing the crew in the last scene of this real life Shakespearean Tragedy fits the facts as we know them, especially the inexplicable drama surrounding the recalcitrance of the Yavapai County FIRE Cabal, otherwise known as the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra (Our Thing) to tell the truth about what happened to the crew on that God forsaken fire known as the Yarnell Hill Disaster fits like a missing puzzle piece in this otherwise completed picture of epic and catastrophic fails on the part of almost everyone who was involved in the Greatest Blunder in the history wildland firefighting.
So…if it is true, how about you just quick fucking around while you play stinky finger with both your sources of information and us? In the lives of every case agent and source of information there eventually comes a time and place when it is time to stand up and do the right thing. This is your time and place. And as a matter of fact, you are well past your time and theirs. I have lost patience with you and them. And if I had the authority, I would drag all of you in front of a Grand Jury and mataphorically beat the truth out of all of you.
56. Marsh had a Hugggggge chil on his shoulder because he had been “let go” by the U.S. Forest Service that showed in almost everything he did. Although FYI, I am sure he wasn’t fired by the USFS and the Clear Creek Fire epic fail probably want even documented. They just let him “move on” in lieu of an adverse action, which would have been best for everyone concerned. I mean…it’s not like what happened wasn’t known by everybody except for me, so he couldn’t put one past another agency.
Anyway…that chip on his shoulder drove him to want to get even with the USFS and prove them wrong about him by building a hotshot crew that was better than any other hotshot crew in the nation, or at least the Southwest Region.
And Marsh actually had the building blocks to make a serious run at that dream. In fact, I believe he did have an outstanding hotshot crew and they were one of the best. You know…except for him.
There are two really big reasons for their advantage over every other crew in the nation. One…and I can’t overstate just how big of an advantage this one was. The ability to attract top hotshot talent with the implied promise of a good shot at moving over to the structural side with regular hours, staying home, great benefits and job security was something no one else could offer. I’m sure that is why he attracted many of the top guys he had like Jesse Steed and Scott Norris.
The second reason was the small town hillbilly personnel department he got to deal with, He could have been like the New York Yankees, although I don’t follow baseball, but they are a good team…right? And picked up the best players over all of the other teams and the front office was too clueless to really know anything about them or what they were doing. So…they could do anything and put the equivalent of a Catholic high school foot ball team together by picking the best players from the entire city, he didn’t have to hire any slackers because he didn’t have all of those pesky federal laws, rules and regulations that prevented hiring discrimination. He could field an entire crew of Bible Thumping Born Again Jesus…you know, people.
57. I had another one, but I got so wrapped up in #56 I forgot it. It will come back to me…eventually.
57. I can’t believe this one drifted out of my mind this morning, because it is a huggggggge factor, but I have it back now!
I have already written that I am convinced that the reason Marsh took six weeks off was because he was on the edge of losing it and he needed a mental health break before he killed Willis and the city council. No hotshot crew boss, or any hotshot period would take that kind of time off from the crew, especially when they were gearing up for the fire season that was upon them. NO WAY, unless they were having a baby and it came out side ways.
And I can tell you what happened during that six weeks, Marsh was hanging out with his horses, laying around in the sun and lickin’ his nuts while he tried to come up with a Pan Z for hud life because he had already fucked up Plan A through Plan Y, sitting in the hot springs up in Ouray with Amanda while they smoked dope and got drunk on love…or whatever, and during that time, he lost the hearts and minds of his crew.
Well…technically he hadn’t had the hearts and the minds of his crew for sometime, if ever since he was such a DICKHEAD, but his real big problem started because Jesse Steeed had won the hearts and minds of his crew because he was such an impressive hotshot and leader.
Everyone liked and respected Steed and Marsh was really, really, really threatened by that because he was such an insecure man filled with weakness, self doubt, arrogance, petty and vindictiveness, oh…and did I mention ARROGANCE, in addition to the fact he was filled with self loathing because he knew he was a fraud.
Almost everything he did was a lie, or done to support his lies. Being “on the wagon” and a recovering alcoholic was one of his biggest lies. He was just an alcoholic…period.
And then he shows back up and immediately starts attacking Steed to pull him down off the pedestal the crew had placed him on during Marsh’s absence.
Everyone liked Steed, the PFD, Willis, the crew, the wildland firefighting community…everyone and he was a real threat to Marsh’s position, especially if he didn’t get the promotion into Wiilis’ job, and even then, Steed would still have been a treat to an insecure and deeply flawed man.
The crews fate was sealed the FIRST time Steed turned down Marsh’s order to follow his flagging down the death chute. At that point, it was Mano A Mano, Marsh versus Steed with the crew watching and listening. They were as good as dead at that point because Marsh was going to impose his will over Steed even if it meant taking a huge risk to the lives of his crew.
58. The incredible coverup, and what the coverup itself implies about the whole mess as a symptom of a systemic failure on the part of everyone who is making life and death decisions about wildland firefighters and especially hotshots with their bullshit cover ups and deeply flawed training that is teaching young firefighters to FAIL and in the process DIE.
Oh…and one more thing. Amanda was a DICKHEAD as well because she acted like she was the Assistant Suoerintendent for Administration and Home Affairs. She was way too wrapped up in her husbands career and a pain-in-the -ass from my perspective. Just sayin….
And I think she has been wayyyyyyy worse since her husband killed his crew. SAD!
And FYI…I don’t think I am being to hard on Marsh or the former Mrs. Marsh.
I only have ONE interest here. And that is to di whatever I can to reduce the chances there is another King, Czak, [young] Olson or Marsh who is ever put in charge of a hotshot crew again.
I see Amanda Beno Marsh as a clear and present danger to the lives of young firefighters, especially hotshots, on the fire line today because she is the primary perpetrator of the Big Lie and is the conduit that others use to do the same thing because they don’t know any better.
And I have assigned myself to the task of changing that equation…period. I’m not here to make new friends or add to my Christmas Card list. I am task oriented…that’s why I went from the second to the last shovel on a hotshot crew to crew boss (that and a lot of dumb luck) in three seasons. Get the fuck out of my way when I am cutting hot line.
And I think everyone here who is interested gets the system I am using for my book outline.
The numbered points are casual factors in the disaster. These will be divided into primary, secondary and incidental and they will form the core of my book. So…since you already have these, you in effect already have the Readers Digest version of my book,
I just have to finish thinking of them, fill them out with more content, context and explanation so someone can follow the sequence of the disaster who hasn’t been participating here for five years.
Secondly, of course I have have empathy for what the crew suffered at the deployment site but I have to set that aside to objectively address the events and decisions that lead up to this debacle.
Im not going to write an entire book vilifying Eric Marsh but rather an overview of the fire itself, the shortcomings of others involved in the effort fighting it, and an honest assessment of Marsh and his role in the death of the hotshots.
I’m just not planning on leaving my opinions out of the process either. Why should I? But at the same time, I’m open to new information and conclusions. So…if you have anything to add…please jump in and do so…especially you…Joy!
Not casual,
causal adjective
caus·al | \ˈkȯ-zəl \
Definition of causal
1 : expressing or indicating cause : CAUSATIVE
a causal clause introduced by since
2 : of, relating to, or constituting a cause
the causal agent of a disease
3 : involving causation or a cause : marked by cause and effect
a causal link
evidence suggests that there is a strong causal relationship between an individual’s experiences with his parents and his later capacity to make affectional bonds
— G. A. Miller
4 : arising from a cause
a causal development
My numbers may be off one or two, but I will fix that as I go along. Just as soon as I think I am done with additional factors popping into my head, I will make a new list, fill each factor out more, renumber them and do an initial separating of all factors into one of the three categories.
So…if you want your own list to keep track of them for your own, I will clean them up soon and make that easier for you. For example, I just typed, “And then there was AIR ATTACK even though I later specifically referred to the Air Attack from Oregon who kept dropping on their backfire that added to Marsh’s frustration and anger.
The first Air Attack reference was specific to dumb ass what’s his name who was told to check on the crew but he said he wanted to finish up his slurry line up north, the way I remember it. I think the crew was also told to standby when they were in mortal danger and minutes from death.
Don’t worry…I will get better as I go through all of this again in detail. 🙂
So anyway…
59. The failure to have an industry wide disaster call sign which is duhhhhhh….a no brainer like you know…everyone else does, which happens to be , “Mayday, Mayday, Mayday” that needs to be implemented five years ago, which was s recommendation from this thread at that time, but I don’t think it has been done yet? NWCG???????
I would have to agree to your Amanda evaluation Gary. It seems to me she mandated most of the movie as well. I saw no real value in it beside a generally fictitious account of things. It certainly would not benefit the safety of wild land fire fighters. It goes along with just about all the books and information out about the fire and the GMHS deaths.
Your book will certainly clear things up and raise a few hairs on people that have lied. I want my copy autographed.
Sometimes only direct talk gets through–good work.
Once again Sonny, I agree with you. And I will tell you what…if you are still here when my book is finished, I will deliver an autographed copy to both you and Joy who are going to be prominently featured in my tome as protagonists.
Although I am pretty sure that you will still be alive to dance an Irish ☘️ Jig on my grave, all things considered.
So…tick tick on the tome, dumbass. As I am so fondly known to THE Woodsman at times.
A brilliant dumbass…it’s a situational subjective evaluation. You understand.
55. We have hit on this one, but I don’t think we went down this road as far as we should have and that is to focus on “when” the crew left the black. We have mostly explored the “why”, but it was pointed out to me the other day from an ex hotshot supervisor that if we knew the why the crew left the black when they did, we would be closer to knowing the why. So I have been thinking about that question and I have concluded there is something to it.
Part 1
The SAIT in their SAIR, in addition to all of the other apologists and defenders of the decisions Eric Marsh made that fateful day, insist the answer is very simple and the crew was driven to leave the black in their desire to reengage the fire in addition to helping those in need in Yarnell because that’s what firefighters do and they needed reposition themselves in order to do so.
Of course the prevalent theory (and I don’t think I am mischaracterizing that fact) here is that we believe they left the black as part of a plan that was formulated as a “Hail Mary” plan for the crew to provide the manpower to backfire from the hastily punched in Cory Ball dozer line in a last minute attempt to stop the fire from entering Glen IIah and Yarnell proper. So…I think I have that right thinking back over the years…or at least that is what I think anyway.
So to me…the last big question, is to answer who came up with the plan, what were the particulars of it and what role was the crew to play in it. Now…once again, none of that changes the fact that both Marsh and Jesse Steed own what ultimately happened to the crew because they were in charge and with great power comes great responsibility as we all know. That answer won’t change any of the facts, but it will fill in what I think is s missing piece of the puzzle and that is important for this historical record of the greatest blunder (as WTKTT likes to write) in wildland firefighting history.
As a result of thinking about this question for a couple of weeks now, I believe the fact they left when they did is prima facie evidence, as well as circumstantial evidence there was in fact a Hail Mary plan and the crew was needed to play a critical role in that plan in order for it to be executed. And that is why they had to leave the black when they did and race the fire to town, a race we all know the crew lost.
If the crew would have left 15 minutes later, give or take, they could have walked all of the way to town through the new black, which would have been hot and smoky, but safe. Steed could see the fire rapidly advancing on the town as it was being driven south by the strong and erratic winds that were produced out of the thunder cell as could Marsh. Based on what has been reported to be their last radio traffic, they knew exactly what was happening and the risk they were taking. There weren’t any surprises that day, at least to the crew led by Steed with Marsh still calling the shots even though he shouldn’t have been because Steed was the crew boss at that point.
And ONE “No…your plan is to damn dangerous” should have been sufficient for any ******* overhead Division Alpha mother ****** except Marsh wasn’t just any line overhead, he was in complete control of Steeds career and his kids health insurance. Every hotshot crew boss I have ever known would have gone ape man crazy on some dumb mother ****** Division Supervisor who couldn’t figure out that “no” means “no.” That just didn’t happen in my day (except for the Scott Fire but that wasn’t on the line) as I have written, the system had to much respect for hotshot crew bosses and showed them complete deference when it came to their crews well being and how they were run.
So anyway…that’s what I think and I also think our critics should stop calling us crazy conspiracy theorists. If I was a conspiracy theorist…I would freely admit it to you, who are indeed some of my closest friends and confidants. For example…I believe that space aliens have been visiting our planet for thousands of years and I love that show on the history channel about space aliens. And there are a lot of people who say that anybody who believes that stuff is a conspiracy theorist and a nut job.
Clarification; when I wrote down below that Marsh was over-the-hill for a hotshot crew boss, I meant it was over for him. Every hotshot has their own internal clock and most of them can tell when their time is up. There have been many guys who have spent their entire careers as hotshots because they could. RTS is rare…but he isn’t unique with the exception that apparently he is the longest serving hotshot crew boss, but many others have gone the distance.
Marsh was still in outstanding physical shape, so that wasn’t his problem, his problem was mental. The two primary factors that dictate his long anyone can last as a hotshot, are mental and physical. And I think the hardest part of being a hotshot is the mental aspect of the job. And once you no longer have the right mind set and your head isn’t all in, it’s time to get out while you can still walk away. It was time for Marsh to get out, you could have stuck a fork in him because he was done.
Part 2
I must have gone to sleep last night subconsciously asking myself the question I said I have been asking myself over and over again for the last five years and that is, “Why did the crew do what they did.” And as I often do when I have a project I am working on or a problem to solve, I woke up this morning and the answer was in my mind…first thing, and clear as the sound of a bell. The crew did what they did because they believed in Steed and so they followed him in spite of their apprehension and fear.
Steed did what he did because he knew he worked for a petty and vindictive supervisor who had a history of mistreating his employees and making arbitrary and capricious decisions regarding their lives and careers…so he had to acquiesce to Marsh’s unreasonable demand the third time Marsh ordered him to lead the crew to the ranch by following his flagging down the death chute.
So…of course that still leaves me with the big question why did Marsh order the crew to risk their lives by trying to beat the fire to town? And here is the answer I woke up with this morning with perfect clarity and I have “high confidence” (which as I have already written, in my new favorite catch phrase) that I am correct. I really feel like I am inside Marsh’s head after five years of studying him. I know that assertion will really offend a lot of people, but that’s just the way it is.
I have written in the past that I can identify with Marsh in a lot of ways because just like him, I had my own demons to deal with on a regular basis. I have admitted I was egotistical and arrogant to the point of being full of hubris and a dangerous crew boss in my early years because I wasn’t fully qualified for the job when fate thrust me into that position and I was to arrogant to admit I wasn’t ready to do the job. I have also admitted that just like King, Czak, and Marsh, I was a train wreck looking for a place to happen in my early years as a hotshot crew boss, but unlike them, fate never found just the right place and time for me to fly off the rails and take my crew with me.
And although there isn’t anything new in my moment of clarity because all of the dots have always been there, I just finally connected them in my own mind. I also think this concept is quite likely to be considered by my critics to be the most irresponsible and outrageous thing I have ever written on this thread. But once again…I can’t help what they may think because that doesn’t change what I believe and the conclusion I have arrived at…with great clarity. The data points are as follows;
1. The Prescott City Council had either discovered or finally concluded that the crew wasn’t revenue neutral, or revenue neutral enough, or were never going to be revenue neutral and that the mayor had been mislead by Willis, Marsh and that other guy, what’s-his-name when the concept of the crew was first sold to him.
2. In 2013, Willis had been pulling in 200K plus for several years between his pension as the retired Prescott Fire Department Chief, his retirement gig as a rehired annuitant Prescott Fire Department Wildland Divsion Chief and his overtime working as both a fire team member and taking individual assignments as a single resource on fires. That was a lot of money for Prescott, Arizona, it won’t impress the California structural firefighters and CAL FIRE people, but it was a lot of money for Prescott, Arizona. I think Willis was getting ready to move on to the next phase of his life and he could even keep getting the lions share of his current income by still going out as a “casual, pick up, AD” firefighter on choice assignments, especially if the Prescott Fire Department has the portal-to-portal gig going like they do in California. None of that matters except I think Willis was ready to move on and he had been making a lot of informal promises to Marsh that he could replace him (Willis) as the Wildland Division Chief…if he (Marsh) played ball instead of being the pain-in-the-ass that he had become recently in their relationship while Willis was grooming Marsh at the same time and recommending him to the PFD Chief.
3. As I have already written, Marsh was done as a hotshot. He had hit the wall mentally and he needed to get out of the hotshot gig, he was burned out. I know that from all of the information and facts that have been made available here on this thread and elsewhere over the past five + years. I can especially see Marsh’s mental state in the white paper he produced for Willis, the PFD Chief, the Prescott City Council and the mayor at the same time he received his last employee performance appraisal from Willis. Marsh was teetering right on the edge of losing it and Willis knew it and Marsh’s big problem…was that he didn’t have anywhere to go. Marsh wasn’t liked or wanted on the structural side of the house like Steed was and so he couldn’t go there as others GMIHC had already done that provided a very nice in house career move for the crew. Plus…he probably just wasn’t suited for that job, I think it takes a special kind of person to be cooped up in a fire station all day washing hose and waxing a big red truck. That probably sounds pretty good to your average slave that has been sentenced to a life of toil in a cubicle farm, but not to guys like Marsh and me. We want to work where we can just stop at any time of the day or night and take a piss right where we are standing at the time. And I have worked enough in cubicles and offices to know that can be problematic in that particular working environment. And as we all know…Marsh had burned his bridges with the USFS and the other wildland firefighting agencies after he got busted as the Acting Globe Hotshot Crew Boss smokin’ dope and drinking on the fireline with the saw team and other Globe Hotshots and the crew was sent home from the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho.
So…when I put all of those disparate facts and conclusions together, add them up, multiply the grand total times two and then cut that number in half, I arrive at the following conclusion.
Willis was ready to move on from the PFD Wildland Division Chief job, Marsh was done as a hotshot and needed to move on, but he didn’t have anywhere else to go. The Prescott City Coucil not only had the crew on the chopping block because they weren’t revenue neutral, they had the entire PFD Wildlands Division in their sights and Willis had been putting the screws to Marsh because of his failing attitude, but he was also pressuring him to save their common dream of creating the only city fire department hotshot crew in the nation (remember that Willis and Hollenshead had both gotten a lot of national attention and recognition from their unholy alliance and immoral fornication between the USFS and the PFD) but the Wildlands Division as well.
So anyway…with their most recent accolades in the local press as the home town heroes and fresh from their victory of not only saving entire neighborhoods but that skanky old Aligator Juniper tree as well, Marsh (and certainly others that may have included Willis, but I am sure it included Todd Abel) knew the quickest and the most effective way to increase their net worth to the city council by making their stock price spike, was to make a huge splash in the state and even national news media (remember the Yarnell Hill Fire was Big National News at the time) while winning the hearts and minds of the citizens of Yavapai County, which in turn would make it politically untenable for the Prescott mayor and city council to eliminate the crew and the Wildlands Division, thereby saving their collective dream and insuring Marsh could move up to replace Willis.
So the bottom line is this…Marsh had everything to gain even if the crew simply made a heroic effort to save the town of Yarnell and everything to lose if the crew sat that one out by staying safe in the black and only hiking to town to help pick up the pieces of what was left. Therefore…Marsh made the conscious decision with the help of others, to risk the lives of his crew in order to greatly increase his chances of professional advancement by saving the crew and their entire division from becoming budget cut victims. Marsh bet the lives of his crew on his future career move and he lost. End of story.
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 4, 2018 at 2:24 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Marsh made the conscious decision with the help of others,
>> to risk the lives of his crew in order to greatly increase his
>> chances of professional advancement by saving the crew and their
>> entire division from becoming budget cut victims. Marsh bet the
>> lives of his crew on his future career move and he lost. End of story.
Below is the full content of what Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis
told Eric Marsh ( in writing ) in Marsh’s final ‘performance evaluation’.
Marsh and Willis both signed the document on May 5, 2013.
That was just 56 days before the tragedy at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
—————————————————————————————-
Summary of Performance by Evaluator ( Darrell Willis )
Eric, 2012 and the beginning of 2013 has been a challenging and exciting time for the Wildland Division. You have weathered the storm and kept the Division intact.
You have done a great job with the budget this year, the crew is intact with a major disruption in staffing just a few days prior to the seasonal firefighters starting. This issue shows the resilience of the you and the Division to meet the challenge. I would like you to work on some things that can use improvement this year.
I would like to be involved up front on all planned events that the crew is involved in to add my expertise to ensure that the event goes off in an excellent manner.
I am requesting that you notify me anytime you need assistance from HR on hiring issues and that all inquiries that are made to HR are run through me first. I also would like you to begin the mentoring of Jesse Steed as your replacement giving him opportunities and the freedom to lead the crew and you take a more hands off approach. I would also like you to put together a succession plan that addresses the succession of all FTEs within the crew. Eric, one area that I sense some frustration in is the area of staffing of two lost positions. Chief Fraijo, you and I have done everything we can to address this issue, we have spent a lot of time and energy trying to fill the positions, it is now time to let the system work, realize that we have done our best and make the best of the situation.
I appreciate how you have reached out to the other Divisions within the department and are trying to integrate the Wildland Division into the department as a whole, this is going to be a long process, please continue leading out in this area. Finally, I believe it is imperative for you to maintain a positive attitude in everything you do, you have 20 people looking for leadership everyday, the department is looking at our Division everyday and the City as a whole is evaluating our performance, goals and service. we need to lead up front and realize the Division’s future is in our hands. Thank you for another exceptional year.
Employee Signature and Date
Eric Marsh – 05/03/13
Supervisor Signature and Date
Darrell Willis – 05/03/13
Department Head Signature and Date
Dan Fraijo – 05/09/13
——————————————————————————————-
Notable quotes…
“I believe it is imperative for you to maintain a positive attitude in everything you do, you have 20 people looking for leadership everyday”
Willis himself is pointing out to Marsh that his ‘attitude’ has been ‘slipping’, and his job is at stake if he doesn’t ‘buck up’ and ‘get with the program’.
This was a threat ( with mutually understood consequences ). No question.
“…the department is looking at our Division everyday”
Not just once a quarter, once a month, or once a week.
EVERY DAY… EVERY ASSIGNMENT… EVERY FIRE.
“…and the City as a whole is evaluating our performance, goals and service”
Again ( as implied by Willis )… EVERY DAY… EVERY ASSIGNMENT… EVERY FIRE.
“THEY are watching us”.
“…we need to lead up front and realize the Division’s future is in our hands”
“The ( entire ) Division’s FUTURE is in OUR HANDS.”
Everything was at stake… hopes, dreams, careers, LOTS of $$ ( INCOME )…
and the pressure was certainly more on Marsh than Willis.
Anyone who ever tries to understand what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013
has to take this known CONTEXT into consideration… John Maclean included.
Right on WTKTT. Thanks, this was one of the papers I was thinking of. Do you have the bitch white paper Marsh wrote handy to post it?
Like I said way back when, if one of my supervisors ever wrote me something like this, I would start looking for another job, but Marsh didn’t have anywhere to go except maybe into the world of the trades, which there is nothing wrong with, but once Marsh saw Carl Hungus, it was going to be hard to keep him on the farm.
Whoops, that’s Karl Hungus in Logjammin, not Carl Hungas. And the family farm is in Moorhead, Minnesota.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FC7DRBBEiUw
Weird…but I was looking for that photo of Able (I think) giving Marsh the stink eye and I accidentally found Marsh’s white paper that he wrote for the city council and mayor…I think?
https://ericmarshfoundation.org/pages/about-eric
Yep…it was to the city council.
This is the letter Eric wrote to the Prescott City Council Members:
Granite Mountain Hot Shots
“Esse Quam Videri”
Who are the Granite Mountain Hotshots? This is a simple question with a complex answer. We are many things to many different people.
To our peers, the 111 other Interagency Hotshot Crews in the nation, we are an oddity. In a workforce dominated by Forest Service and other federal crews, we have managed to do the impossible; establish a fully certified IHC program hosted by a municipal fire department. As remarkable and hard-won as this achievement is, we are odd for other reasons, too. We look different. Not because our buggies are white instead of green, but because we smile a lot. We act different. We are positive people. We take a lot of pride in being friendly and working together, not just amongst ourselves, but with other crews, citizens, etc. We are problem solvers. We like to show up to a chaotic and challenging event, and immediately break it down into manageable objectives and present a solution. Quite often, we solve problems for people that they don’t even know they have. These things are possible because our folks are smart, motivated, and highly trained professionals that don’t see any task as “beneath” them.
To our city coworkers, we are a bit of a mystery. Guys that work in the woods a lot. We are nice, professional, and can assist many different departments with all manner of tasks. We show up when it snows, when something needs to be moved or set up, when it floods, when there are fireworks, when something needs a chainsaw. Most folks might not know we’ve been around for almost 12 years. Our first six years were spent in a building that had no heat or bathrooms, but lots of squirrels and mice. We didn’t complain too much, we just accepted it as necessary in order to fulfill our crazy dream of someday being a hotshot crew. We do a lot of fuels management, both on private property and city owned open space. We use chainsaws to cut the vegetation and then physically drag it to a chipper. It’s loud and dusty. This is a daily occurrence unless we are fighting fire or bad weather. We lead the nation with our fuels management program, having accomplished more than anyone else.
To our families and friends, we’re crazy. Why do we want to be away from home so much, work such long hours, risk our lives, and sleep on the ground 100 nights a year? Simply, it’s the most fulfilling thing any of us have ever done. It is difficult to explain the attraction of such a demanding job. We can show our wives and girlfriends pictures or videos, recount events and tell stories, but we all invariably receive the same blank stare and the obligatory “that’s nice sweetheart” response. It’s not because they don’t care. Our families are the most wonderful, supportive people in the world. It’s just difficult for anyone to grasp the magnitude of suffering and joy that we experience during a given fire season, unless you have been there yourself.
To each other, we are chameleons. On the job, we are workers and supervisors, from no experience to 19 years of ‘hotshotting’ all over the country. Some of us are highly skilled with chainsaws; some have the stamina to swing a hand tool all day. Many of us have lots of experience with helicopters. When on a fire, we average 16 hours a day on shift, every day, for two weeks. We may hike with all of our gear for one to two hours before we get to our piece of fireline where we will start work. We don’t have bathrooms or showers and we eat a lot of bad food. We love it. Off the job, we are husbands, fathers, and boyfriends. We are cowboys, hot rodders, rock climbers, hunters, marathoners and bicycle racers. Due to our work, we have to fit a year’s worth of normal life into a six month period during our winters. It really makes us appreciate the time with our families and pursuing our hobbies.
Maybe to answer the question of who are we, it would be helpful to explore who or what we are not. We are not nameless or faceless, we are not expendable, we are not satisfied with mediocrity, we are not willing to accept being average, we are not quitters.
Is this an all inclusive answer to the question of who are we? No. Hopefully this is at least a beginning. We are approachable and we have no secrets. We are proud and passionate about our program. These things will show through during a discussion with any of our crewmembers. We don’t just call ourselves hotshots, we are hotshots in everything that we do.
Finally found that photo on the Eric Marsh Foundation Facebook
https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/12356669_943446499081867_2758920868821081441_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&efg=eyJpIjoibCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=e6a6499aa803abb44d00d08c8a59b780&oe=5CA45A6F
I know that even as a doctor, I’m not supposed to make either physical or mental evaluations of patients I haven’t personally examined. Plus…to be perfectly honest with you, I never even finished medical school. Well…now that I think about it…I never even actually started medical school, much less completed my residency as a psychiatrist. So…I know I really shouldn’t making after the fact diagnosis of Eric Marsh, you know…because he’s dead and all.
Now maybe Abel always looks like that? And maybe he gives everyone the stink eye all of the time, because I don’t really know him that well. Well…technically I have never even met him so you could even say I don’t know him at all. I not even completely sure that IS Todd Abel now that I think about it?
But since I remembered Able didn’t trust Marsh to tell him the truth regarding his location or intentions for his crew and actually challenged him by questioning him on the radio about those facts in order to double check with him on the fire, he was like…“Are you SURE you are where you say you are? And are you SURE you are going to be doing what you told me you are going to be doing…you fuck nut?”
Oh…and the other thing, because I wake up in a new world every day, I might even be remembering all of this wrong? Because let’s face it…I ain’t no AI, now R I? It has been five years or more.
But anyway…at the time that story was in my head and I saw this photo that Amanda posted on the Eric Marsh Foundation Facebook page, I said to myself…”Self…that photo looks like Ops Able is giving Marsh the stink eye because he thinks Marsh is trying to pump him full of bullshit.”
You know…the other thing is, I just don’t think Marsh needed to be off for six weeks because he got a booboo from falling off his mountain bike. That just isn’t the hotshot way. The hotshot way is to put a Flintstones bandaid on it if you have to, but get back in the game asshole, because FIRE 🔥 season is upon us!
I think that six weeks off was a mental health break so Marsh could try to get his head screwed back on straight because he was starting to have a meltdown and he told some doctor some bullshit story and the doctor signed off on a little mental health vacation for him. I think his only problem was that he was having eye trouble…he couldn’t see going to work. I mean…didn’t they know about “light duty”, so I’m calling bullshit on the six weeks off while he and Amanda went back up to Ouray and sat in some of the hot tubs up there and trash talked the City Of Prescott while smokin’ some weed (Mind if a do a J? The Big Lebowsk)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=evFuZbL8yN0
and gettin’ drunk…on love. That’s what I think. Just FYI.
Oh…and one more thing. The reason all of these posts are coming out right now from me isn’t because I started hitting the bottle…again, I have gotten settled in my new digs and I have officially started working on my book, “Rise Of The Hybird Firefighters” because I have got my head screwed on straight now.
And seriously…no hotshot takes 6 weeks off if they still want to be a hotshot, especially when Marsh took it off. A US Forest Service Hotshot wouldn’t get six weeks off unless he was getting fitted for a prosthetic leg after his had been amputated…maybe? That is a bullshit story.
The Fire Gods invented “Light Duty” for just such occasions, if nothing else, the injured hotshot can sit in a chair in the sun and doze off if he needs to while sterilizing canteens or inventorying the cases of rats etc. and filling out the paperwork for more supplies.
Nobody takes 6 weeks off unless they are on their way out the door and they want to burn off some sick leave before they go and they don’t care anymore what anybody thinks of them,,,cause they are GONE.
Oh…and one more thing. Those two names I couldn’t think of are Hollie NEIL and Duane Steinbrink.
Plus…Marsh was the crew boss for God’s sake, hotshot crew bosses never do anything except for light duty and that is the hardest category. After that comes “Bitch Work” (non gender specific) and then “Small Child Work.”
Marsh was a fuckin pussy (Gender specific in his case)..
And FYI, the weeks prior to the fire season starting are the most important because it is during that time the entire crew comes back together, the guys who were laid off are back, the new guys report for duty, all of the equipment is reconditioned, new equipment is ordered, squads are formalized, new training is done, plans are made, inspections are conducted, PT programs are intensified, PT testing is done, the crew really comes together and creates a new personality that belongs to that crew alone, even if it is mostly all the same guys, everyone has changed over the past year and the bonding, coalescing, esprit de corps, are all built and firmly established.
The core of the new crew is built, along with the pecking order, the joking around that happens, friendships are formed, rivalries are worked out…lots and lots of things happen, in fact everything happens that will dictate how that crew will go forward to face the challenges that are coming there way as a team, a unit, a crew, one for all, and all for one…you know.
There was a real problem there because Marsh skipped that time. That is unheard of and inconceivable in my book and based on my experience. Marsh would have come back to a new crew as a stranger, almost like a new guy if he missed that period of time. A guy with s broken leg on crutches can be put on light duty. That is one bullshit story and proof in my mind, there was some bad things happening on that crew.
It was rottening someplace from some cause. And the cause I’m guessing was Marsh’s attitude because the city council had them on the chopping block. I’m guessing that had a tremendous detrimental effect to the spirit and moral of the entire crew. The city council was also apparently screwing around with the full time status of Ashford and maybe some others?
The City Of Prescott wanted the status of fielding their very own TYPE1A INTERANENCY HOTSHOT CREW…BUT THE CHEAP MOTHER ******, DIDN’T WANT TO PAY FOR IT, THEY WANTED OTHERS TO PAY FOR THEIR HONOR AND SKIMP, PINCH PENNIES, CUT CORNERS, GO CHEAP…and it all caught up with them, with a vengeance!
Oh…and one more thing. That crew had the freedom because of their “good ole boy” City Of Prescott personnel office and employment laws and Regis instead of massive federal oversight that federal crews have to negotiate through.
The fact that there weren’t any women on that crew in this day and age, is proof beyond a reasonable doubt they were up to their necks in small town, hillbilly, inbred, cracker politics and hiring discrimination. If anyone cares about that. They were also wayyyyyyy over the line of what is should have been acceptable with their infusion of religious activities, principles, values and specific beliefs on that small town, hillbilly, in bred cracker crew. Just FYI.
The US Constutution wasn’t recognized on the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew, nor were the principles this nation was founded on. Shame, shame, shame on both Marsh and Willis.
There is right and there is wrong, And they were wrong.
And those two names I couldn’t remember…I remembered. They are Holly NEIL and Duane Steinbrink.
Thanks WTKTT. That gives much insight into where Marsh stood. Willis had in mind either advancing Eric or else giving him the boot. The way Willis was overseeing things it would seem he would have had some input during the Yarnell Boondoggle. Did you or anyone have any evidence to the fact. I know Willis kept real close watch on Donut who kept his mouth shut tight about what he knew despite the right for the loved ones to know the truth–that is the ones that wanted to know. Dr. Ted said in death situations it may be about 50-50 that want or do not want to know. About half will just accept what they are officially told and want to leave it that way and go on. I would be one that would want to know the truth and details but looking at the situation, some of the loved ones are antagonistic to this site–thinking the FS gave them the facts and all else is fiction. Amanda is the leader with her number of friends and cohorts who want to make us believe it was a God thing and not a blatant disregard for the safety of the men by their immediate bosses–Marsh and Steed as well as unidentified culprits in the shadows.
Now this…is a pretty darn good video, the link for which, was sent to me by an old hotshot buddy. And may help explain why the time I spent as a hotshot was the pinnicle of my life and why it has been downhill ever since then…sad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhmjV2ykvsc
Oh…and one more thing. RIP, President George Herbert Walker (AKA Pappy Bush and Bush 41, my badge number was 41, so we were kinda kin) Bush. A true American war hero, great American patriot, and a personal hero to me.
And if the far right wouldn’t have punished him for raising taxes when he had to for the good of the country in spite of his, “Read my lips…no new taxes” there probably never would have been a President Bill Clinton, who I despised, and a famous Hillary Clinton to even run for President or do anything else in public life because Pappy Bush would have had a second term which he so rightfully deserved and we would have been so much better off. Just sayin…
Whoops…just noticed s typo, it should read, “Poppy Bush.”
The late Senator John McCain, and now late President George HW Bush and the soon to be late Senator Robert Dole, were all giants amoung men and politicians who all demonstrated great honor, courage and integrity throughout their lives. Except for you know…a few slip ups here and there, they were after all still human.
My favorite answer to a political question of all time. It was asked if Senator Robert Dole In 1976.
JIM Lehrer: “Why do you want to be the Vice President Of The United Stares?”
Senator Robert Dole: “Well, it’s indoor work and there’s no heavy lifting.”
VIDEO: Butte County sheriff’s deputy’s dramatic body camera footage from Camp Fire
( https://www.mendocinobeacon.com/2018/11/29/video-butte-county-sheriffs-deputys-dramatic-body-camera-footage-from-camp-fire/ )
Pretty interesting video clip with plenty of “drama.”
PARADISE — Butte County Sheriff’s Deputy Aaron Parmley was on Pentz Road attempting to rescue four nurses when his patrol car broke down.
With embers swirling around him, he set out on foot surrounded by flames. Parmley switched on his body camera “in hopes of capturing what he thought were going to be the last moments of his life,” the sheriff’s office said Thursday.
Butte County Sheriff Kory Honea released the dramatic three-minute video on Thursday in response to a public records request. Most deputies did not turn on their cameras, the sheriff said, and Parmley’s footage might be the only of its kind from the sheriff’s office.
It begins as Parmley was on Pentz Road near Feather River Hospital to rescue nurses. He soon encountered neighbors walking in a daze. It was morning but the sky was as dark as night.
“Oh, it’s not good,” Parmley said as a woman screamed in the distance. Three individuals appeared, walking ahead of him with nothing but the clothes they were wearing. “Hey guys walk toward the left,” the deputy is heard saying.
A nurse asks him: “Are they coming for us?”
“Watch out, watch out,” an unidentified man shouts. Parmley’s camera is pointed to where an engine can be heard but not seen; the sheriff’s office said he had 10 yards of visibility.
Seconds later, the headlights of a tractor peek through the dense smoke, as Parmley pulls out his flashlight and signals for the driver to stop. “Can we get in?” someone asks. “Yeah, come on,” the driver said, honking his horn to announce his presence.
“There’s no room,” the woman said. “Get in,” Parmley told her.
Since the Nov. 8 fire tore through Paradise, scores of residents have told stories of jumping into the cars of strangers to escape the flames. The unidentified tractor driver said he could “only fit one or two.”
The deputy then walks to what appears to be a fire engine with a law enforcement officer inside. Parmley piles in as the driver says, “OK, just everybody stay quiet, OK?”
Source: Mendocino Beacon By David Debolt | PUBLISHED: November 29, 2018 at 1:13 pm | UPDATED: November 29, 2018 at 11:12 pm
https://youtu.be/-gyeg-IzBt8
Join Ryan McNeice and award winning author and journalist, John N Maclean, for a special edition of Spokane Talks on FOX 28 News & Entertainment this Sunday at 6 pm.
Mr. Maclean is the author of the new book ‘River of Fire’ and four other books documenting and investigating wildland fires and tragedies.
Maclean continues the Montana family legacy dating back to his father Norman Maclean’s ‘A River Runs Through It’ and ‘Young Men & Fire’.
After spewing about all manner of blather, McClean FINALLY begins to refer to the YH Fire and the GMHS about the 19:50 mark.
There is a Comment to the above YouTube video:
“The likely reason that MacLean’s YH Fire book will take “several more years” to come out is because of the new evidence and insight from these websites: Twenty-six Chapters dedicated to the YH Fire on InvestigativeMEDIA.com ( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comments ) and Yarnell Hill Fire Revelations ( http://www.yarnellhillfirereelations.com ).”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on November 30, 2018 at 4:53 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> After spewing about all manner of blather, McClean FINALLY
>> begins to refer to the YH Fire and the GMHS about the 19:50 mark.
And here is what he had to say about Yarnell ( not much )…
Weird how he works Henry Kissinger in there.
SIDENOTE: Maclean was once one of the ‘pool’ reporters who followed Henry Kissinger around during his ‘shuttle diplomacy’ thing.
I = “Spokane Talks” Interviewer Ryan McNeice
JM = John Maclean, author
—————————————————————————————-
+19:52
I: The book you’re looking at… actually have spent significant time working on lately… is the Yarnell fire. 2013. Granite Mountain Hotshots. Tell me a little bit about the variables that played out in that particular fire.
JM: Well.. I think the variables in that fire were that nineteen members of the Granite Mountain hotshots were killed… and you have to go back to 1910, more than a century before, to find a greater number of dedicated wildland firefighters being killed by fire on any incident. It was shocking to everyone. How could this happen? We’ve had the South Canyon fire, the Thirty-Mile fire, the Rattlesnake fire, we have the 10 standing orders… this was never supposed to happen at this level.
I: Right
JM: But it did.
Why did the superintendent, Eric Marsh, and eighteen other men decide after four o’clock in the afternoon, in a time of drought, with great heat… and they could SEE a fire below them in a valley… to leave a relatively safe blackened or scorched area?
So… you got Eric Marsh and the hotshots walking along a ridge line AWAY from good black, late in the afternoon, and they can SEE the fire and KNOW that there’s a thunderstorm coming behind it that is going to accelerate it… and they go down INTO a box canyon where they would have had no more than one lookout. It’s not absolutely clear that they had a… uh… Marsh acting as lookout, but he probably was.
I: Right
JM: And the fire comes to the mouth of the box canyon, roars up, engulfs them and kills them.
WHY DID THEY LEAVE?
( Short pause, then John Maclean asks again in a quieter voice… )
Why did they leave?
And what was said right after was “Well… we’ll never know”.
I: Uh-huh.
JM: And there’s some truth in that. You’re not gonna know everything about what was said and the click-click-click metaprocesses of the time… but we know a LOT.
I: Mm-hmm.
JM: And the answer to it, and how you deal with that, is… comes from Henry Kissinger.
I: Of all people. Yeah.
JM: Not your idea of a wildland firefigher?
I: ( Laughs ) No… but a bright guy.
JM: Not mine either… and yet… and yet… there is a new foreign affairs correspondent for the Wall Street Journal who wondered how he was gonna do it… and he called up Henry… and Kissinger said… “I’ll tell you what you have to do with foreign policy. You have to give CONTEXT. You have to… you can’t just take the things that happened in the last week… it’s a weekly column, a very good one… you’ve got to put this thing in historical context. Go back and expand it so that people can really understand… uh… WHY…
I: Why one decision…
JM: What was working on them in the long run… not just the things they said at the… in the last seconds. The Yarnell Hill fire, I think, is exactly the same. You have to go back in the life of the superintendent, Eric Marsh. You have to go back into the character of the Granite Mountain hotshots, as a group. You have to deal with what happened the day BEFORE the fatalities… which NOBODY has dealt with…
I: Mm-hmm.
JM: Uh… and then look at the situation OUTSIDE of them. In addition to them… at the… at four o’clock, four-thirty in the afternoon…
I: Right.
JM: …on that fire.
I: Hmmm.
JM: And my point is that if you drop it right there you are not getting full value out of nineteen deaths.
I: Right. And lessons that can be learned.
JM: There are many, MANY lessons to be taken here… and once you place this thing in context and understand the background and understand and have some empathy…
I: Mm-hmm.
JM: …for the decision-making process that they went through, in fact, considerable empathy… and leave your opinions at home for a while… you will come up with things that will save lives in the future… which is a lot more important that you having a field day kicking around Eric Marsh.
I: Right. Well… you’ve had many answers for many families throughout the three decades… nearly three decades of writing about these catastrophic fires, the tragedies. Your new book is a great book. I’m… uh… I’ve really enjoyed it. I recommend anybody to go out and buy it.
JM: Thank you for that.
I: I’m also excited about the forthcoming book for the Yarnell fire.
JM: It’s gonna take several more years.
————————————————————————————-
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> There is a Comment to the above YouTube video:
>>
>> “The likely reason that MacLean’s YH Fire book will take “several
>> more years” to come out is because of the new evidence and insight
>> from these websites: Twenty-six Chapters dedicated to the YH Fire
>> on InvestigativeMEDIA.com
There is no such comment at the YouTube video link above.
Someone already DELETED it, perhaps?
Followup…
Maclean DOES make one very interesting offhand comment during this interview…
He said…
———————————————————————————-
So… you got Eric Marsh and the hotshots walking along a ridge line
AWAY from good black, late in the afternoon, and they can SEE the fire
and KNOW that there’s a thunderstorm coming behind it that is going
to accelerate it… and they go down INTO a box canyon where they would
have had no more than one lookout. It’s not absolutely clear that they
had a… uh… Marsh acting as lookout, but he probably was.
———————————————————————————-
Key phrase…
“It’s not absolutely clear that they had a… uh… Marsh acting as lookout, but he probably was.”
Really?
So John Maclean is ( apparently ) going to state ( in his book ) that Eric Marsh was ‘probably’ acting as a ‘forward lookout’ for Steed and the rest of the crew after he ordered them out of the black?
I wonder if Maclean is going to then postulate a theory about why Marsh would have then totally FAILED that ‘lookout’ responsibility that day?
I certainly agree with Mr. Maclean about one thing though. The events on the Yarnell Hill Fire have to be put into context and that is EXACTLY what we have done here in spite of our limitations.
Here are just some of the “context” we have discussed over the past five years. And heads up…I may have to do several, “Oh…and one more thing”; as I keep remembering additional “context.”
And I For one…seriously doubt Mr. Maclean will get the job done. But this is my theme song to try my best to live my life by:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ADSRBjlXSKc
“Everybody’s talking about it…nobody’s getting it done.”
And I will get it done…sooner or later.
Context to follow, please feel free to jump in at any time and help me out.
Whoops,
Everybody keeps on talking about it…nobody’s getting it done.”
So…let’s see now? And in no particular order..
1. The Holloway Fire and the Zuini Crew (?) burn over.
2. The Clear Creek Fire & the Globe Hotshots.
3. Marsh’s seleration from the USFS.
4. Marsh’s chemical dependency and failed AA participation.
5. Marsh’s arrogance, and desire to one up every other crew while being filled with self loathing at the same time because of his deep character flaws.
6. Marsh’s history of arbitrary and capricious decisions like firing his Number 2 over the hotel points.
7. The false promises of Willis and Marsh to the mayor to make the crew revenue neutral.
8. The pending budget cuts by the city council and the fact the crew wasn’t revenue neutral.
9. Marsh’s prior bad decisions with good outcomes.
10. The local hero press from the Doce Fire and the “saving” of the big alligator juniper tree.
11. The fact the crew had been released for days off after weeks without one and most of them including Marsh proceeded to get dripunk or high or both.
12. The crew was out of rotation at SWCC, but Willis and Marsh did a buddy back channel and end run.deal.
13. Steeds With was a stay at home mom with two young children.
14. The inappropriate religious fanaticism of Marsh, Willis and others in the crew.
15. The long history of fighting fire on the cheap by Arizona Forestry.
16. Most if not all of the crew were still drunk and or high when they were called back to their base fir the Fire after only a few hours.
17. The crew was suffering from the effects of being hung over and severe dehydration on the ridge and they wanted OFF of it in the worst way.
18. The fact that Marsh flagged their route down the death chute and then insisted they follow it to beat the fire to town in order to re-enact their success and good press from the Doce Fire.
19. The fact that Willis was grooming Marsh to replace him as Division Wildland Chief and the entire Duvision was on the chopping block.
20. The crew was trained to die by deploying their fire shelters and laying down in an area about the size of s three car garage and they needed at least 16.5 acres to escape death and serious burn injuries.
21. The crew was conditioned with standard and approved fire shelter deployment that over emphasized the potential benefits of their fire shelters and underempgasized their limitations.
22. The fact that the fire was burning with extreme fire behavior characterized by horizontal flame lengths in excess of 69 feet and 2000 degree temp tempatures.
23.They left the black at the height of the burn period to hike in front of a firestorm down a natural chimney in violation of almost every fire order and safety recommendation that had been developed over more than 100 years and countless lives to keep WF safe.
24. Marsh failed to take into account the “slinky effect” when calculating the time it would take the crew to follow his path because there were 18 of them heavily loaded with tools and equipment and so he was surprised by their slow descent.
25. The Arizona Division Of Firesrty had a bad habit of understaffing fires with short teams to save money and then cannabilizing crews for overhead.
26. The Arizona Division Of Forestry has a bad habit of responding to fires initially, going cheap on them and then responding slowly to build up necessary resources including overhead ti save money.
27. Steed didn’t attend the morning briefing so he was unaware of some critics, factors.
28. No shift plan with maps were handed out.
29. Division Zebra Suoervisor and Marsh has a falling out and he left the furelindcand wasn’t replaced.
30. The unspoken (on that fire maybe) but ever present demands by Willis on Marsh and the crew to meet ixceec all of his expectations however unreasonable.
31. Arizona State Forestry saved money by contracting their fires out to the B Team Of has beens, never we’re, or over-the-hills who knew they liked to keep it cheap and if they wanted to keep getting picked up as contractors, they needed to keep it cheap.
32. Unusually high level of poor communication and confusion during first days of the fire where CHAOS was running the fire.
33. Extreme and unexpected fire behavior that should have been anticipated by the fire team. The fire team was thinking and calling the shots based on linear thinking and were incapable of responding adequately to a fire that was behaving exponentially.and outperforming all of their expectations and the fire team were unable to ever catch up with their reality.
34. Marsh didn’t believe the rules applied to him and he possessed a deep defiance and rejection of authority. but ar the same time, he was intolerant of anyone who challenged his authority and he responded with pettiness and vindictiveness to anyone he felt threatened by.
35. Marsh was over-the-Hill for a hotshot without ant career potential or opportunity for advancement outside of the Prescott Fire Department and he wasn’t wanted, nor was he suited for the structure side of the PFD and he had burned his bridges with the USFS and other federal agency on the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho and his history of subsequent behavior. His reputation for possessing and exhibitedi g all of the negative traits I have mentioned here was well known within the WF community.
36. Marsh demonstrated excessive frequent ego centrical behavior (even for a hotshot crew boss which normally runs high) which evidenced by his custom truck accessories, black and white tile rules, and petty rule enforcement intended to demean those under his supervision by excessively humping their heads to assert and emphasize his Alpha Make status.
37. Marsh was jealous of and threatened by the level of respect and admiration the crew and others showed towards Steed.
38. Steed didn’t believe that could beat the fire to town and he said as much to Marsh three times when he refused to follow the first two orders.
39. They left the two track and bailed off the ridge into a death chute box canyon filled with explosive chaparral that was primarily oily manzanita that burns like gasoline on a stick.
40. The crew was the bastard hybrid off spring of the unholy coupling (oh…did you mean coitus) between the USFS and the PFD and so they didn’t know which world they belonged in and because they tried to exist in both the wildland and structural firefighting worlds at the same time….it killed them.
I’m tired of typing with my one finger, so this is a good place to stop. And I’m not going to proof my work even as poorly as I normally do.
Oh…and one more thing.
And then there was…AIR ATTACK!
Oh…and one more thing.
And then there was Marsh’s disingenuous when communicating the loacation of the crew and his INTENTIONS. AKA “Lying his ass off about where they were and what they were going to do!”
Oh…and one more thing.
And then there was Marsh’s disingenuous when communicating the loacation of the crew and his INTENTIONS. AKA “Lying his ass off about where they were and what they were going to do!”
Whoops, bad copy and paste.
And then there was their lookout.
One shit-for-brains Sad Sack habitual and terminak fuck up. A dumb ass FNG sent to do the job of an experienced squared away wildland firefighter who didn’t have his head up his ass whose sole qualification that day for that job is that he was still too damn drunk and hung over to even keep up with a bunch of other drunk and hung over hotshots.
Whoops, I crossed the law enforcement phonetic alphabet with the military one because I was bi lingual and I used to be fluent in both. Number 29 should have said, Division Zulu…not Division Zebra.
44. Marsh was off fir six weeks prior to the YHF, which resulted in him pushing the envelope even further than he normally did which resulted in him calling the crew back when he knew they were physically incapable of going to that fire because HE wanted to get back in the saddle so much.
45. Marsh procrastinated in getting their UTV replaced, which hadn’t been invented in my day but apparently had become a necessary and replied upon piece of equipment that was certainly needed that day.
46. The Air Attack from Oregon State Forestry kept dropping on their back fire which added to Marsh’s frustration and subsequent reckless behavior that day.
47. I hit this one, but I forgot to use my catch phrase, “How Big Is Big Enough” wasn’t something Steed if anyone else ask themselves that fateful day, because they hadn’t been trained to ask that question.
48. Other hotshot crews treated the crew like they were sub standard because they were sponsored by a city fire department, which added to their and in particular Marsh’s pathological and unhealthy obseeion with proving they were better than any other crew.
49. Willis mandated that Marsh and later Steed falsify the crews mandatory qualifications to maintain their Tyoe 1A status which only fueled their belief that the rules didn’t apply to them.
And no…I don’t have proof that every significant and contributing factor I have listed here is factual, but I am utilizing the CIA model in that I have, “high confidence’ that everything I have listed in true.
50. The USFS falsified the real primary causal factors in the deaths of the El Cariso Hotshots on the Loop Fire Of 1966, the deaths of the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire Of 1976, the deaths of the Prineville Hotshots on the South Canyon Fire Of 1994, which prevented the true causes of those fires ti be studied and thereby assuring that the same mistakes would be made over, and over, and over again until the same mistakes were made by Marsh and others on the YHF. As a result of this criminal behavior, I don’t believe the dots and the common data points have ever been recognized and studied before now,
Under severe stress, all of us will revert to our training and what we know best. That fact was exhibited for everyone to hear that day when Steed (?) reverted to their old call sign on the radio of, “Granite Mountain 7”, which was their name when they were a fuels fire crew.
That is why it is so critical that everyone train like they fight. And so under extreme stress Steed, who was a Marine combat veteran, made the fatal decision to deploy their fire shelters in an area that was NOT survivable and wasted precious minutes, which were the last minutes of their lives trying in vain to improve a deployment area that was impossible to improve enough to withstand both the extreme flame lengths and temperatures they were about to experience that delaminated the layers of their fire shelters and turned them into so much silicate dust.
And as they threw away their lives because of their insufficient, inadequate and deeply flawed fire shelter training, Marsh used those same minutes to run to them so he could die with them, rather than them running to the safe zone Marsh was in so they could live with him.
Train like you fight and always, always, always…finish the fight!
And of course I am giving very brief explanations for each factor and everyone of them need to be filled out, some of them need that a lot.
For example, I attributed the Battlement Creek and the South Canyon Fire cover ups to the USFS, but the BLM was in charge of both of those.
And as I mentioned once before, I knew both of the men who were in charge of the South Canyon Fire investigation since one of them was the Arizona BLM State Director at the time of the fire and I happen to be working there.
The other one was the former Arizona BLM Associate State Director although I got to know him when he was the Associate Director for the entire. BLM in Washington and later as the BLM Alaska State Director.
So I am aware there is a difference between the BLM and USFS, but as far as all of those investigations go, there isn’t a dimes bit a difference between the two of them.
For most of YOU PEOPLE, they are one and the same with the USFS being (as I have said before) the 800 pound Mountain Gorilla in the room and the BLM is a smaller ape, but a Great Ape nevertheless. All of the other federal agencies are just monkeys.
In other words, from your perspective, the USFS and the BLM are two pees in a pod, with the USFS normally in the lead, even when they aren’t officially in charge, because as goes the USFS…so goes the Wildland Firefighting community as I like to say.
For one thing, both of these agencies share their Prime Diectives from Congress and that is one of Multiple Use (or as some people say…Multiple Abuse) management of the land they administer.
The odd ducks out in FIRE are both the NPS and the Fish & Wildlife Service because they both share preservation and conservation as their Prime Directives and they both have significantly smaller FIRE programs, especially the F&WS.
And the BIA is the oddest duck and outsider of all since their Prime Directive is one of providing cradle to grave services for people. Everything else like resource management and FIRE is an after thought.
51. And this one is a very complex factor and heads up…it is based entirely on my observations and the conclusions I have drawn based on those observations with absolutely nothing else to support my hypothesis.
I have spent a lot if time wondering why Darrell Willis hired Eric Marsh to supervise Granite Mountain 7, given Marsh’s background and reputation within the wildland firefighting community.
And if you haven’t been paying close attention or are new to the three, when everyone who was on the inside heard about what happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots, everyone said some version of the following;
Well…that figures.
I saw that one coming.
It was just a matter of time.
I knew that was going to happen.
Eric finally did it…he killed his crew.
They didn’t believe the rules applied to them
and it finally caught up with them…in a big way.
So…why did Willis hire Marsh? Why did Willis keep Marsh in charge after they transitioned to a Tyoe 1A crew? Why did Willis keep Marsh in charge after reports came pouring in about his bad decisions with good outcomes? Why did Willis keep Marsh in charge after he got to know him and discovered on his own that Marsh chaffed under authority, and resented any oversight? Why did Willis accept Marsh’s deep character flaws in how he managed his crew?
Willis knew Marsh was damaged goods and that he had burned his bridges with the USFS and by doing so, had done the same with every other wildland firefighting agency.
No hotshot supervisor with any career potential would ever willingly go to work running a city brush disposal crew because that is a one way ticket to a dead end career. Hotshot leadership positions are normally tickets to good careers on up the FIRE food chain.
So…anyway, my theory is this. All of those reasons are exactly why Willis not only hired Marsh in the first place, but kept him on as the problems piled up. Willis got and kept exactly what he wanted in a subordinate and that is really…FUCKED UP!
Authors Note: The best example I have heard about Marsh’s management style was his practice of humiliating the crew member who was responsible for the chick blocks by making him carry them around with him in public, which included into a restaurant. Man oh man…that was FUCKED UP!
Eh…”Chock Blocks” not “Chick Blocks.”
I mean…I know that there are some people who will be or are infuriated by how I characterized the Granite Mountain Hotshots by writing;
“The crew was the bastard hybrid off spring of the unholy coupling (Oh…did you mean coitus? The Big Lebowski) between the USFS and the PFD and so they didn’t know which world they belonged in and because they tried to exist in both the wildland and structural firefighting worlds at the same time….it killed them.”
But everyone who has worked either in law enforcement, or as a prosecutor, or has been a parent, or has had real world experiences in their lives will tell you that they don’t believe in coincidences.
So does anybody really think that it is a coincidence that the only hybrid wildland firefighter and structural fireman hotshot crew that has ever existed in history…was also the only hotshot crew to ever be wiped out (except for Sad Sack, who got lucky in an unrelated close call) in one fell swoop as 19 members were all burned alive in what was arguably the biggest blunder and biggest catastrophic fail in wildland firefighting history?
Really? Or do you think those two facts are related?
And just FYI…here are the facts regarding all other fire related hotshot deaths in the more than 70 year history of hotshot crews.
As I have written several times, I exclude the deaths of the squad of 9 Prineville Hotshots, who were killed upon the South Canyon Fire Of 1994, because they were working under the direct supervision of fire line overhead who was actually one of the smokejumpers who also died and who was acting as the Incident Commander. Neither the Prineville Hotshot Crew Boss or Assistant Crew Boss were on the fire yet. And the fire never successfully transitioned from being managed by CHAOS to being managed by a human.
And on the Battlement Creek Fire Of 1976, the Mormon Lake Crew Boss recognized the danger they were in, and he sent the majority of the crew to their safety zone, keeping only a 3 person burn out team with him, 2 of whom were ultimately killed with the crew boss while the 4th firefighter was severely burned.
That means to even start to find something comparable to the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, we have to go all of the way back to the equivalent of the Bronze Age of wildland firefighting on the Loop Fire Of 1966 when 12 El Cariso Hotshots were burned alive and almost everyone else on the crew was severely burned.
And 1966 was decades before hotshot crews were professionalized with the current requirements and standards that mandate every aspect of how a hotshot crew is organized, structured, recruited, trained, managed, staffed and supervised with ground breaking assignment “turn down” protocols that didn’t even exist in my day as a hotshot (1975 – 1984 which was the “Iron Age”).
I keep asking myself over and over again…”How did that unmitigated disaster happen? And so far…I don’t have any explanations or answers for myself. So…I just keep asking myself that same question over and over again.
And I’m driving myself…CRAZY!
Now THAT is some CONTEXT that everyone should think about. How did that unmitigated disaster happen?
OK Gary answers my question– there is ablanket problem–people need to see what bodies look like after deploying with those safety blankets in what Gary describes as a three car grarage area in dense manzanita. Not a pretty site since no one was allowed to see the bodies–that I understand but it would be good to have some idea of how roasted the human body would be. Drop everything and run for the boulder area. Did Marsh forget how he was running back and forth across the fire edge when the fire was in the boulders. Joy and I watched him and that area of boulders had much more vegetation than than the one they were 70 yards from and could have made a run for.
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 2, 2018 at 7:06 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I certainly agree with Mr. Maclean about one thing
>> though. The events on the Yarnell Hill Fire have to
>> be put into context and that is EXACTLY what we
>> have done here in spite of our limitations.
>>
>> Here are just some of the “context” we have discussed
>> over the past five years. And heads up…I may have to
>> do several, “Oh…and one more thing”; as I keep
>> remembering additional “context.”
>>
>> ( snip )
Now that is some CONTEXT.
But somehow I don’t think Maclean is going to go anywhere near most of that.
Thanks WTKTT, that means a lot coming from you know…an AI. No…he won’t and that is why I have to write my book. I am the only one who can do it.
Well…that is far from true., but I am the only one who can do it that is willing and able to do it. My personal circumstance have given me something very few people have…complete freedom to literally do anything I want and I answer to no one.
And best of all…I can’t be sued because I don’t have anything that is worth suing me for and judgments against me that I will never have to pay, certainly won’t scare me either.
I’m sure you have noticed, you know…because you’re AI, that I wrote my initial post and posted it in exactly one hour from off the top of my head. Everything is here inside these chapters, I think all of us can take some pride and satisfaction in the work we have done here.
I’m not saying it’s over, because I don’t have any idea of what may still be to come and I have an open mind. I’m just not ready to take a hard look or give any credence to a backfire coming out of the shrine area. I’m not saying it didn’t, I’m saying I don’t know if one did or not and therefore, it won’t be on on my list unless something changes.
Authors Note: I have written a couple of times about the advantages of law enforcement training and how it is designed to meet the threats of today, not the threads of the last century. LE training is dynamic and responsive to the needs of its constituency.
FIRE training…isn’t. FIRE training focuses on fighting the fires and facing the threats of the last century. I don’t assign any blame to the YHF fire team for their grossly inadequate response to the threat they were facing. They fought like they trained to fight…incrementally.
And I have written about this before, but I think Fire Generalship (I was never even close to a being a person who would have been sent to that) trained it’s students to paint by the numbers. And do know how we did everything, we followed a linear model while responding to a wildfire with a PROPORTIONAL response. We are talking about a lot of taxpayer money on the line and there is accountability after all.
We fought fire like we would paint a picture by the numbers, we followed the sequence or pattern like we always did. There wasn’t any exponential components in any training or procedures that I was aware of or ever experienced.
The threat matrix was always gradual and never dynamic.
A small amount of vertical white smoke going straight up at 12:00 = X response.
A moderate amount of grey smoke laying over at 1:30 = Y response.
A heavy amount of horizontal black smoke laying over at 3:00 = Z response.
And that is why I don’t think the fire team could wrap their minds around what they were seeing develope in front of them. There wasn’t a “panic button” in their minds to hit, because the USFS never installed one.
LE on the other hand, trains to go from, “Hi…how we doin’?” to an explosive death match in a split second. Most gun fights occur at 2 or 3 yards, with 2 or 3 shoots being exchanged and they are over in 2 or 3 seconds.
In other words, LE trains heavy utilizing a “force continuum” to insure the response is appropriate to the threat level, but it allows for the shift to the use of deadly force in an instant.
I think FIRE training needs to change to keep up with the times we are now living in,
52. The people who mattered in FIRE didn’t trust Eric Marsh. They knew he might lie to them. I will never forget the photo that Mrs. Beno Marsh (I can’t remember if she has a new last name or not?) just loved and showed that photo of the fire overhead from the YHF, (although it was on another fire I think) giving Marsh the stink eye as he turned to walk away from him. The expression on his face (I think it was one of the Ops…Able? ) said it all. One picture was worth a thousand words in that case, “”I DON’T TRUST YOU!” Amanda was CLUELESS of what she was actually looking at.
I think it was Able who double checked with Marsh and questioned him on his location and intentions because he didn’t trust what Marsh was telling him on the radio. I have never been able to wrap my mind around the fact we had a hotshot crew boss running around in an explosive, dynamic environment with 19 souls under his supervision,
who line overhead couldn’t trust to tell them the truth about what he was doing and what his intentions were.
Now that…is a situation that shouts WATCH OUT!
And yes…I suspect Maclean will color inside the lines in his book to keep his access to family members and the Yavapai County FIRE Cabal Cosa Nostra. Plus, he is probably still working with what’s-her-name? My mind is tricky…some things I can’t forget and yet I am like a goose and wake up in a new world every day.
It absolutely baffles me how one person can be both a genius & complete dumbass at the same time? You’re a genius, Gary and a dumbass……errr, ahh, ummm, disregard the rest of my comment. You definitely have your moments. Hahaa!
Why thank you! That means a lot coming from you…I think? I just wanted to take the shortcut to writing my book, All of the points I would make I have just listed. although who knows what else will pop into my head over the next few days. But now all I have to do is fill out each data point above and I will be done. And of course. this has been the work of lots of people over the past five years…including your invaluable contributions, especially in the area of fire shelters and “How Big Is Big Enough”, which isn’t a phrase I coined, but it is a phrase I would like to implant in every WF’s mind.
53. Although the USFS has taken the lead in outright covering up or glossing over the true primary and secondary casual factors in the deaths of 43 Hotshots who were burned alive on 4 seperate fires. Also killed on one of these fires were 3 smokejumpers and 2 helitack.
I have also identified the BLM for their complicity with the USFS and in the investigation of two of these fires, the. LM actually had the lead because the deaths occurred on Public Lands managed by the BLM as were the fires.
I don’t however, want to leave out the National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) that represents every other agency in the country that has wildland firefighting responsibilities.
The NWCG is also responsible for creating and or approving all wildland firefighting training. Most of which is hopelessly outdated and is pathetic that over does the use of cartoon characters to communicate deadly serious topics with an extreme over reliance on the internet to teach in individual point and click sessions or by depending on contractors and volunteers to train their new wildland firefighters, the quality of which training may vary widely.
Why does training always take the first and biggest hits when budgets are cut? The NWCG is also SOLELY responsible for the deeply flawed fire shelter training and si I am going to list what I think they are specifically responsible for…AGAIN.
The crew was trained to die by deploying their fire shelters and laying down in an area about the size of a three car garage and they needed at least 16.5 acres to escape death and serious burn injuries.
The crew was conditioned with standard and approved fire shelter deployment that over emphasized the potential benefits of their fire shelters and underempgasized their limitations.
Under severe stress, all of us will revert to our training and what we know best. That fact was exhibited for everyone to hear that day when Steed (?) reverted to their old call sign on the radio of, “Granite Mountain 7”, which was their name when they were a fuels fire crew.
Under severe stress, all of us will revert to our training and what we know best. That fact was exhibited for everyone to hear that day when Steed (?) reverted to their old call sign on the radio of, “Granite Mountain 7”, which was their name when they were a fuels fire crew.
That is why it is so critical that everyone train like they fight. And so under extreme stress Steed, who was a Marine combat veteran, made the fatal decision to deploy their fire shelters in an area that was NOT survivable and wasted precious minutes, which were the last minutes of their lives trying in vain to improve a deployment area that was impossible to improve enough to withstand both the extreme flame lengths and temperatures they were about to experience that delaminated the layers of their fire shelters and turned them into so much silicate dust.
And as they threw away their lives because of their insufficient, inadequate and deeply flawed fire shelter training, Marsh used those same minutes to run to them so he could die with them, rather than them running to the safe zone Marsh was in so they could live with him.
Train like you fight and always, always, always…finish the fight!
54. The NWCG is guilty of using outright and blatant LIES in their overhyped and gross exaggerations in their “Time Share Condo” type sales pitch to encourage wildland firefighters to always default to going to their fire shelters rather than evaluating their individual situation at the time and make independent decisions based on their particular circumstances that will give them their best chance of surviving.
The biggest lie they tell repeatedly in fire shelter training is that fire shelters have saved “hundreds” of lives since it was mandated that all wildland firefighters carry them on the fire line after the Battlement Creek Fire Of 1976.
There have certainly been hundreds of wildland firefighters who have deployed fire shelter since fire shelters were mandated for carry, but to suggest that every one of these fire fighters would have died had they not had a fire shelter with them is…ridiculous and using blatant lies to oversell a deeply flawed product and the NWCG should stop using these lies at once and start teaching wildland firefighters to always ask, “ How Big Is Big Enough” and if the area they are considering the deployment of fire shelters isn’t SURVIVABLE…RUN and take the chance of dying on your feet moving away from the threat.
I certainly like the “How Big Is Big Enough” concept. It should be one of the first things out of the instructor’s mouth during fire shelter training. After all, if it isn’t big enough, nothing else in shelter training is going to matter anyway.
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 3, 2018 at 3:26 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I’m sure you have noticed, you know…because
>> you’re AI, that I wrote my initial post and posted
>> it in exactly one hour from off the top of my head.
Yes. I did notice that ( right away ).
Impriúil
( Translation from Gaelic ): Impressive
😎
Those aren’t just to screw with Maclean, those are the running tally I keep in my head of all casual factors for my book which I am now officially working on again and it was time to get a working list on paper.
Of course I will sort them into primary, secondary and maybe even incidental contributing factors, but if I fill all of those out like they need to be, my book will be done except for a beginning and ending chapter and the end chapter is almost done I will post here by Friday at the lasted.
I have to impose artificial deadlines on myself or I get distracted and fuck off too much.
Thank you Joy for posting this interview with John Maclean. I like the fact that he stressed looking at the big picture instead of simply blaming Eric Marsh.
Really? McClean’s “big picture” is always to blame management, and in this case, the homeowners that live in the wildlands and the junk science of “Global Warming” and once again, completely avoid blaming those ultimately responsible for the deaths of those they supervised, which was their primary responsibility no matter what.
Reply to Robert the Second:
When I mentioned the big picture I was referring to without saying it the situation in the Shrine area where a burnout apparently was set on Sunday afternoon, got out of control and eventually reached and burned over the Granite Mountain hotshots.
Proof??
That burnout happened because Joy and I saw the video that was later removed. That is of course circumstantial evidence that I would take a lie detector to and swear by God and my Mother’s grave that I saw it taking place. Now the chief lied to Joy and I was present that they were not in there at all, yet the continuation of the video that was not removed shows his Peeples’s valley truck leaving the Shrine area some time after the earlier guys using drip torches. Now whether the fire trapped the men or not could only be determined by a time line. In the video the trees were already swaying as if the wind were already up–the direction of the wind could have been determined by close observation of the video. Joy and I took a hike back to the shrine area to make sure that was the foundation in the video we had hiked past a number of times before. We even made a trip to dirt roads in Peeples Valley to see if there were other rock foundations that could be mistaken for what we already knew to be the shrine dirt road. There are not any other areas with a rock foundation some ten to fifteen feet off the west side of a dirt road. Of course that fire effort was so disorganized and muddled that those Peeples Valley firemen–and there could have been other crews mixed in with them so we can not say they were the guys using the drip torches–but it happened as sure as I was shot in the back by a 12 guage by my own dog. Both acts are circumstantial since I am the witness–though I did not see the dog pull the trigger–he did it—yet I did see those guys in that video drip torching bushes along the same side of that dirt road above the shrine as that rock and cement foundation was. That is what they do–burn outs and back burns–and how would they know Marsh and Crew were in a manzanita trap only a mile and a half up hill from them–it is obvious they did not have any inkling where the GMHS were and may have believed they were safe in the black..
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
December 1, 2018 at 9:15 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> a burnout apparently was set on Sunday afternoon,
>> got out of control and eventually reached and burned
>> over the Granite Mountain hotshots.
There is still no real proof of that… not even enough to justify using the word ‘apparently’.
On the contrary… there is all kinds of video and photographic evidence which shows no such thing ever taking place.
YES… there are a few photographs that remain ‘mysterious’ and appear to show ‘smokes’ in odd places… but the majority of the video and photographic evidence still doesn’t support any ‘manual burnouts’ taking place near Yarnell at any time that afternoon.
And YES… there are reports that even people like Alan Sinclair supposedly found ‘fusees’ ( ignition flares ) out there in strange places… but there’s never been any detail about WHERE these were supposedly found.
Also… author Kyle Dickman gave these rumors of a ‘backfire’ legs when he talked about it in his book about the Yarnell Fire.
From the EPILOGUE of Kyle Dickman’s book about Yarnell…
—————————————————————————–
One City of Prescott firefighter was so confused by what happened that he took an arson-sniffing dog to the fire site. The dog found the remains of a fusee. Some took it as evidence that somebody, perhaps the Helms, had lit an intentional backfire that had trapped the hotshots. But with fifty-mile-an-hour winds funneling into the basin and already extreme fire behavior raging, it’s very unlikely that such a backfire, if one was even set, would have been responsible for the tragic outcome.
——————————————————————————-
Dickman rightly points out there with regards to any ‘rumors’ of a ‘backfire’ that day… there are really TWO issues involved.
1. Did anything like that actually happen.
2. Even if if did… did it actually ( then ) contribute, in any way, to the fate of the Granite Mountain hotshots out in the box canyon.
Wtktt, without engaging too much on the topic …
we are all independently but collaboratively researching the YH Fire and in my research and I am not a Wildland Firefighter yet (March 2019) and we do not know if you are because we don’t know who you are and your credentials
yet you know mine
Why are you ignoring the fact that we saw that video in July 2013 along with so many others including some people from here saw that video of the Sesame to Shrine area???
Pay attention to the videos and photos and accounts on my blog where those independent smoke plumes lay and the gap in between them to the next plume … they are not connected. Also use the ruler tool to measure the distance. There are other tools I cannot publicly provide to show you too but there are ways in just using the blog to get to where Diane stated … and I am pretty sure her statement was based on that blog content and verbiage and I am not wrong to state what I have on that blog.
You have your IN THE PUBLIC mannerism of research on what are facts and I have first hand knowledge that I will continue to keep bringing to the forefront in spite of the naysayers ….
Since the beginning you have discounted what we saw because it is not there anymore (the video)
I stand firm that people are omitting and harboring a lot of information.
Someone could have shared his tidbit on the YH Fire yet guess what the chances of that ever happening … oh he has but behind the scenes … there is more and I stand FIRM there.
I saw the video of a burnouts on a road/dozer push entitled Yarnell Hill fire. Now it’s nowhere to be seen s apparently scrubbed by the almighty Google YouTube machine?
If wwtktt is AI they neglected to program thinking outside the box and a “what if” algorithm.
Haha. Love you, buddy but you’re behind the curve on this one. Thing is I’ve seen you take a leap on way less than this. Makes me go hmmmmm….
Reply to Woodsman post on December 3, 2018 at 5:53 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I saw the video of a burnouts on a road/dozer
>> push entitled Yarnell Hill fire. Now it’s nowhere
>> to be seen s apparently scrubbed by the
>> almighty Google YouTube machine?
There ARE ( known ) videos from Sunday, June 30, 2013 in Yarnell showing a ‘crew’ doing manual burnouts. 3 of them, actually. They were the first 3 of the 21 videos that were being ‘hidden’ from the public until John Dougherty’s FOIA request finally ‘popped them loose’ from U.S. Forestry.
They were videos shot by those 3 Prescott National Forest employees who had arrived that afternoon. Since even these videos that were finally released via FOIA were ( illegally ) altered and all the metadata information was removed… we still don’t know whether it was Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell who shot these 3 particular videos.
But the LOCATION was NOT the ‘Shrine’ area.
The 3 videos were shot up on Hays Ranch Road and showed Corey Moser and his Engine Crew ‘lighting up’ the side of Hays Ranch Road ( as they were told to do ) as they were evacuating from the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’.
Are you sure one of these 3 videos isn’t the video you are now recalling?
They are all still sitting on the Arizona Foestry website at this link…
https://dffm.az.gov/New-Video-Clips
The ‘crew burning out the side of the road’ videos are the FIRST THREE on that page.
1. Video 0630131532
2. Video 0630131533
3. Video 0630131534
Take a look at those puppies and see if any bells ring.
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> If wwtktt is AI they neglected to program
>> thinking outside the box and a “what if”
>> algorithm.
No lack of ‘imagineering’ horsepower on this end.
Famous for it.
But with regards to this ‘manual burnout near Yarnell’ thing… don’t forget the four ‘LY’s when it comes to ‘level of assurance’…
1. Possibly
2. Probably
3. Apparently
4. Definitely
I really, truly am still at just ‘LY1’ ( Possibly ) on this one.
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Haha. Love you, buddy but you’re behind
>> the curve on this one.
So bring me ‘around the bend’.
I believe I’ve been paying attention to whatever information has ever been presented or discovered on this one particular issue… but ya never know. Maybe I missed something.
Help me get to where you ( and others? ) have apparently already ‘taken the curve’ and parked yourselves.
What is the ‘evidence’ that puts you at either LY3 ( Apparently ) or even LY4 ( Definitely ) on this one?
Can you do a ‘bullet list’?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 2, 2018 at 2:35 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Why are you ignoring the fact that we saw
>> that video in July 2013 along with so many
>> others including some people from here saw that
>> video of the Sesame to Shrine area???
I’m not ( ignoring that fact ).
As I have said before… I absolutely believe that you saw this video, and then it disappeared from wherever it was you first saw it ( online ).
Did you ever determine exactly WHERE whatever it was you saw happening in the video took place? Wasn’t there some kind of ‘stone wall’ involved? Was that ever absolutely identified at some specific address on Shrine Road?
Also… refresh my memory.
Did you ever recall how MANY firefighters were supposedly depicted in the video setting some kind of burn by that stone wall? Were they using ‘fusees’ or ‘drip torches’? How were they clothed? Certain color helmets? I honestly forget if there were ever those kinds of details mentioned.
Also… who, exactly, are these ‘so many others’ that you say saw the same video? How MANY others? Who are they? Did everyone who saw this video ever get together and ‘compare recollections’ about it to help recall what was seen in it?
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Pay attention to the videos and photos and
>> accounts on my blog where those independent
>> smoke plumes lay and the gap in between them to
>> the next plume … they are not connected.
I have ‘paid attention’ to what you are posting.
I also think I know the photograph you are referring to and, if I’m not mistaken, it’s the one taken from up on West Way that I helped provide you the actual ‘sightlines’ for.
As I told you when I delivered the annotated version of the photograph, I am not an expert in ‘smoke plumes’ and I cannot say for sure what is actually being shown in that photograph. As I also told you… it doesn’t seem ( to me, anyway ) to PROVE anything one way or the other. It could be just another photograph showing the natural progression of the fireline into the Yarnell area, as seen ( and verified ) in so many ‘other’ photos and videos.
As I have said over and over again… I am READY to believe just about anything with regards to this Yarnell thing… certain theories have to take into account ALL the evidence available… and not just be based on one particular photo.
And as I have also pointed out ad nausem now… the “Jerry Thompson” photos and videos have to always be factored in with any theory of a ‘backburn’ originating iin the Shrine area. The Thompson photos and videos show no such thing ever taking place that afternoon.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Since the beginning you have discounted what we
>> saw because it is not there anymore (the video)
See above ( and my similar comments every other time this issue has come up for discussion ).
I am NOT ‘discounting’ anything.
I believe you saw the video… and then it went away.
That was happening a lot immediately following the tragedy.
Lots of things ‘appeared’ and then ‘disappeared.
Example: The minute the Youtube user ‘4490red’ became aware that we were referencing HIS published Yarnell videos… he immediately removed them from Youtube.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> I stand firm that people are omitting and harboring
>> a lot of information.
That has been the case since day one with this tragedy.
This whole thing about a ‘backburn’ or ‘backfire’ is going to remain a mystery until SOMEONE comes forward and admits “Yes… it happened.” complete with NAMES and TIMES and exact LOCATION.
Only then could it ever be determined whether it then, in turn, really had anything to do with the fate of the GM Hotshots out in the box canyon.
In the 4:00 PM timeframe… the entire ‘middle bowl’ was already turning into one gigantic conflagration and so it would then remain to be determined whether any ‘manual burnout’ ( anywhere near town ) really made any difference at with regards to the tragic outcome out in the box canyon.
Morning Epiphany Moment
It occurred to me this morning shortly after I awoke from my slumber, that the fuel shown in the video I made in 2006 of our Stock Rubicon Challenge, which was an attempt to take a brand new 2006 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon (meaning that it was not only 4 wheel drive, but that it was built with factory front and rear differential lockers, which make a vehicle a super duper, to use a technical term, 4wheel drive vehicle) up what the maps called Old Forest Road 52, is identical to the fuel that was present on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
We started down in the Sonoran Desert, which has an elevation from sea level to 3500 feet above sea level. But then we (my son and I) had climbed up on a geographic bench that was at about 5000 feet, which was when we got into the manzanita vegetation type and is the same elevation of Yarnell, Arizona. We were actually trying to climb to the top of the Bradshaw mountains that you can see in the background of that video, which is where Crown King is located.
To orient you, while I am shooting all of the footage that was captured when my son was bottoming out our Jeep on the rocks and trying to punch holes in the gas tank and rip off the differential housings (staring at 2:45 and at about 5:32 I am looking right at Yarnell) I am facing generally to the west and if I were to walk due west from that location for about 40 miles or so, I would be standing in Yarnell. So if you take a good look at that vegatation type, you can clearly see just how thick and nasty that manzanita really is. I also think the fuel loading and the arrangement of the vegetation that particular area would have been nearly identical to what was present on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
They say hindsight is always 20/20, but I would never willingly try to fight my way through that nasty stuff unless there was absolutely no other choice and for some reason it was a matter of life and death that I do so…NEVER, EVER. So anybody, like the Serious Accident Invetigative Team, who says that jumping off into that nasty, nasty manzanita was a reasonable decision, has obviously never tried to fight their way through it and they don’t have the SLIGHTEST idea of what they are talking about…just FYI.
I guess the real take-a-way for me, is to once again emphasize, what on earth Eric Marsh thinking when he repeatedly ordered his crew to bail off that ridge and that nice two track they were hiking down into a box canyon full of that nasty stuff.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Iow1057rc
From Wikipedia, “Manzanita is a common name for many species of the genus Arctostaphylos. They are evergreen shrubs or small trees present in the chaparral biome of western North America, where they occur from Southern British Columbia and Washington to Oregon, California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas in the United States, and throughout Mexico. Manzanitas can live in places with poor soil and little water. They are characterized by smooth orange or red bark and stiff, twisting branches. There are 105 species and subspecies of manzanita,[1] 95 of which are found in the Mediterranean climate and colder mountainous regions of California, ranging from ground-hugging coastal and mountain species to small trees up to 20 feet (6m) tall. Manzanitas bloom in the winter to early spring and carry berries in spring and summer.[2] The berries and flowers of most species are edible.“
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 28, 2018 at 8:07 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> From Wikipedia… ( snip )
That Wikipedia page for “Manazanita” mentions NOTHING about the oily nature of the plant, or how extremely flammable it is, or the fact that it’s nickname is “gasoline on a stick” and that it tends to literally EXPLODE when exposed to flames.
The Pulitzer Prizes – Official Web Page
2014 Pulitzer Prize Finalists in the category ‘Breaking News Reporting’
Finalist: The Staff of the Arizona Republic
This Pulitzer Prize finalist nomination is for the Arizona Republic’s compelling coverage of a fast-moving wildfire that claimed the lives of 19 firefighters and destroyed more than a hundred homes, using an array of journalistic tools to tell the story.
https://www.pulitzer.org/finalists/staff-181
From one of the articles in the ‘Pulitzer Prize’ nomination package…
————————————————————————————————–
Article Title: Somewhere, the next fire is waiting to happen
Published: July 7, 2013 ( 7 days after the Yarnell tragedy )
By: Brandon Loomis and Mary Jo Pitzl
Republic reporter Matt Dempsey contributed to this article.
The unincorporated canyon village just under the cusp of Big Bug Mesa is the definition of the danger zone that firefighters call “wildland-urban interface.”
It’s rugged country at an elevation of 6,700 feet, and its one access road is lined with the red-barked manzanita shrubs that Yavapai County forest-fuels specialists call “gasoline on a stick.”
Arizona’s persistent drought, coupled with dead or dying trees and brush and the risk of human-caused fires, means the long-term threat is high.
Fuel is the key, said Bruce Greco, outreach director for the Ecological Research Institute at Northern Arizona University.
“There are areas of Arizona that have very dense, overstocked areas of vegetation, particularly with ponderosa pine,” he said.
In the case of Yarnell and many areas of Yavapai County, thick stands of chaparral are perpetual risks, said Pat Graham, state director of the Nature Conservancy in Arizona.
Controlled burns can help clean up pine areas, but they’re often dangerous in chaparral, Graham said.
Manzanita and creosote are especially oily.
“They tend to EXPLODE,” he said.
————————————————————————————————-
So it wasn’t just ANY ‘unburned fuel’ that the Granite Mountain Hotshots walked into when they decided to violate some of the most basic rules of their profession and drop into that box canyon with no lookout in place and no “eyes on the fire”.
It was ( literally ) EXPLOSIVE ‘unburned fuel’.
They were even specifically WARNED about that just hours before they died…
Men’s Journal
Article Title: The Last Battle of the Granite Mountain Hotshots
By Josh Eells
https://www.mensjournal.com/features/the-last-battle-of-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-20130911/
————————————————————————————————–
As the rest of the Granite Mountain crew met for weather and safety briefings, Eric Marsh went ahead, hiking up to the fireline to mark a trail for the guys to follow.
He made his way through the brush, pausing every 50 yards or so to tie a strip of pink flagging tape around a branch.
This wasn’t sparse desert scrubland; it was thick chaparral, a four-foot tangle of mountain mahogany, thorny catclaw, manzanita, and Sonoran scrub oak. In some places it was so thick, it was almost impassable. It was also highly flammable; the locals call the oily manzanita “gasoline on a stick.”
Down at Incident Command, the rest of the crew was having breakfast before setting out. A Yarnell man named Rick McKenzie approached with some advice.
Rick’s family had been in Yavapai County for 150 years, since his great-grandfather moved from Nova Scotia to prospect for gold on Yarnell Hill. He bow-hunted in these mountains, and he knew the terrain well.
He went up to one of the Hotshots, a squad boss named Travis Carter.
“Y’all be careful up on that mountain,” Rick McKenzie told him. “That brush is so thick that you can’t even crawl through it. And that manzanita burns HOT.. If the fire comes down off the mountain, man, watch out. It’ll BLOW UP.”
“Thanks,” Travis Carter said, nodding. “We appreciate that.”
—————————————————————————————————
But even with that specific warning ( that morning )… the Granite Mountain Hotshots ended up ( that afternoon ) still committing the greatest tactical blunder in the history of Wildland Firefighting.
right Troy.
Today the Helms speak at Yavapai College from 12:30-2pm about the YH Fire une 30, 2013.
REGISTER and get your seat today.
I hope you are there Troy or they talk about you at this event.
I took video of the effects of manzanita that June 30, 2013 morning
sounded like gun shots going off.
Sonny gave me an update video of his recovery and what’s left of his flesh
I only posted the xrays on that blog post and shared that due the content I am not ready to share externally on a post or internal by cyber email but would in person.
It use to be a fist could fit in the hole healing so a month later I feel it is a lot better than weeks ago – the wound vac has been great – annoying but great.
I had 3 pending “in draft” vanish and with training and Holidays I have not had the sit down time to do them..
I am blow drying my hair with Harry Josh and figured let’s catch up on IM
I do plan to focus to the site for a few days but busy all day today…Hope by tomorrow afternoon to get there,
sorry Sonny-
I still did not fix captions and glitches but I did add your Service pics and others in the few weeks…just sooooo short on online time.
hope to soon
recover well.
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/11/03/How-Many-Lives-Does-One-Man-Have-I-Always-Thought-It-Was-Two-The-Second-One-Began-When-One-Realized-They-Only-Have-One-Life-Not-For-Tex-Harold-Eldon-Gilligan-Sonny-This-Is-His-Medical-Status-Update-Post-Tex-Being-On-The-Weaver-Mountains-June-30-2013-Was-Very-Important-To-The-Wildland-Fire-Industry-Too-Many-Times-He-Has-Been-Thanked-For-His-Fire-Knowledge-Experience-Let-This-Post-Honor-The-Fallen-By-Sharing-About-Sonny-Who-Is-On-A-Road-To-Recovery-
Oh…and you know…your links, somehow you really suck at making links? How do you get them so long? Just sayin…
Yes, thank you for reminding me of how manzanita burns. I was actually just thinking of how nasty it is to fight your way through.
And of course, I have beaten how much the “slinky effect” can slow down a full hand crew who is trying to get through rough terrain or vegatation like manzanita ti death a couple of times, so I won’t do it again.
But…I am convinced it was a significant factor in the deaths of the crew because I think it is very likely that Marsh based the time he expected the crew to be able make the descent down the canyon on his own time and by doing so, grossly underestimated the actual time it would take a crew to go the same distance.
So anyway…speaking of going into the Arizona backcountry, even though I let our website expire, my Jeeping Youtube channel is still up that shows Jeeping in primarily Arizona, but also Colorado and Utah. There are 70 videos on this one channel alone (I also have another Moab channel) but if you would like to see some Arizona backcountry with me, as my closest friends and confidants, please allow me to recommend three videos in particular.
1. This is the video I made several years ago celebrating my best friend and Jeeping buddy, who is now gone from this earth, but she lives on in this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X3_hWaa58FI
2. If you have never seen a Gila Monster in the wild, here is most of the ones my son captured on video. They are very rare to see in the wild and in fact, in all of the years I worked in the backcountry, I never even saw one. But we did see these over a 5 or 6 year period of Jeeping.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsbzsrY6x9E
And here is our intro video my son made, which turned out pretty darn nice, since it was made quite a long time ago, and was cutting edge at the time.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7_KF3czocM
And here is where my channel so you can find and watch all 67 other videos.
https://m.youtube.com/user/gobackcountrycom
Oh…and one more thing that I don’t remember mentioning before. My son now has a Masters Degree in Forestry and works for the U.S. Forest Service as a silviculturist, doing whatever a siviculturist does.
My grandfather was a U.S, Forest Service wildland firefighter who was killed while working for them building a logging road by a bad dynamite fuse or dynamite that exploded when he went forward to deal with it.
They say it took him three days to die at the clinic on the Apache Indian Reservation. Now is that some full circle of life…or what?
And I know I have to,d the story about my grandfather before, but…
And FYI…it was the clinic at Whiteriver, Arizona after he was taken there in the back of a USFS pick up truck down out of the White Mountains up by Big Lake. Which is where I spent most of my summers growing up on family ranches.
In other words, people just don’t come more White, Christian and Conservative than I do by the way of my God fearin’ upbringin’. I ain’t no liberal, nor do I push their agenda, but I do call a ♠️…a spade and I know one when I see one.
And Secretary Zinke is a fuckin’ ♠️ that belongs in federal prison with a bunch of his “friends” where I will be happy to know Zinke will surely “make a new friend” when he gets there along with Don Jr. and a few other fuckin’ spades.
God Bless America!
Oh…and one more thing. Those ranches included the Udall ranch where one of my uncles [Mule] Skinner Slade was the ranch foreman and the Milky Way ranch that was owned by John Wayne (Mike Drop on RTS).
And that same uncle was close pals with Mr. Wayne since he liked to hang out with a real cowboy and he would drink coffee and bullshit with him for hours at the Safire Restaurant in Springerville while I had to sit there and be good…or else.
And then there is this one where my son tore the rear bumper off our brand new $35,000.00 06 Unlimited Rubicon. It hurt to take it up that trail, but the first scratches on a new off highway 4×4 hurt the worst.
And it’s just like pulling of a bandage that is caked on with dried blood. It’s best just to rip it off all at once because it hurts less in the long run.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Iow1057rc
You should see that bad boy now though…it is BAD TO THE BONE!
Oh…and here are two more favorites…
“Dancin’ With a Diamondback”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zH1F7pztg8
and
“Rattlesnake At Night”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUQwk84v1is
We liked to start back in the evening because that is when we could see the most wildlife.
Note: No snakes were harmed in the filming of these videos or at any other time. They lived there, we were just visiting.
Speaking of bad boys…check out this BAD BOY!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_sMOMuU-SQk
And here is my personal favorite because I was really in touch with my artistic side when I shot these photos and then made the video.
Reflections
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4xo_JSCt98
And speaking of the National Park Service and preservation, in those videos are several I shot down inside Canyon de Chelly which is a National Park we got to go Jeeping in because we paid off some Navajos who had ancestral access to the park (they are the only ones who can take vehicles down inside the canyon) but the NOS got so pissed off after we went down there and tore up some muddy roads, they banned all further Jeeping down inside the canyon and you couldn’t bribe the Navajos anymore. Now…does that sound like i have a liberal agenda?
Here is what really pissed the NPS off…royally!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BWMDXHOa3o0
That is why I avoid National Parks…too many laws, rules and regulations, you can’t really have any fun in them!
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-21/interior-secretary-zinke-blames-california-wildfires-radical-environmental-groups
Someone is FINALLY getting down to brass tacks here. I’ve been saying this exact thing for fucking YEARS. Does anyone listen to me? No! But at least someone that’s not a peon is saying it. Read the article. THAT’S THE TRUTH. Whether you like it or not is immaterial. Truth.
Well…I would still like to know why the most technologically advanced and richest nation in the history of the world can’t efficiently execute mass evacuations when wildfires can’t make plans think ahead?
I would also like to know why it is when our people do end up in a crisis, we can’t take better care of them other than leaving them living in a Walmart parking lot in a donated tent in the rain?
And what I implied but didn’t specifically state is, “when wildfires can’t make plans or think ahead and 🔥 has to follow all of the rules of nature…all of the time without exception?”
Oh…and I was a uniformed LEO in Santa Fe In the 1980’s and we did have a local ecoterrorist group tyat were affiliated with Earth First!…but all they ever did was show up at the Forest Supervisors Office with signs protesting the fact that we were logging old growth timber up on Elk Mountain, which was adjacent to the Pecos Wilderness.
And one of them kept showing up in a bunny suit and wanted to come in and run around, but I just locked the doors and wouldn’t let him or her in because I didn’t want rabbit droppings all over the carpet in the foyer.
Rumor Control said they were spiking the trees so the high speed saws at the lumber mills would disintegrate into hundreds of pieces of shrapnel, but that never actually happened, or they didn’t spike the right trees? But they did vandalize logging equipment, it was real Dave Foreman shenanigans.
..
We never slowed down though, because we believed the only good tree….was on the back of a logging truck!
But then the logging company hired security guards for their skidders and in a few short months, there wasn’t any more old growth up on Elk Mountain. Just waist deep slash and then the forest on Elk Mountain looked like all of the forests east of the Mississippi have for two hundred years or more. All of of the big trees are gone.
But I am proud of all of the work I did to help make that possible?
Oh…and big stumps. Waist deep slash and big stumps.
I think Zinke is going to end up where he belongs before this is all over…in federal prison. I wish I was with USDI-OIG, I would do that corrupt motherfucker in a New York minute. And be proud of my work when I was done.
Although if the giant bunny would have really wanted to come into the Forest Supervisors Office and run around in order to scatter files and paperwork all over the floor, all he/she would have needed to do was to show to without advertising the event weeks in advance all over Santa Fe…am I right?
Although that was Santa Fe, most of the protesters looked like Edward Abbey in his later years.
As in…they looked like they would be just as comfortable attending a gallery opening in Santa Fe or a wine tasting social event in Portland. Even when someone tried to burn up some skidders, you could tell their heart wasn’t really into their work.
And then their were the kids who would climb up into the trees and camp out for a few weeks (not on the Elk Mountain Timber Sale…just in general). It was pretty hard to take any of them very seroiusly.
I do know one thing about Law Enforcement though, they can either tell the truth…or a better version of it like in the Dos Equis beer commercials.
And based on my experience, LE always goes for the better version of the truth because that is how they get funding. I know I always did, it was kinda expected.
as part of the job. 🙂
🤪
A small group of us used to take my Dodge Powerwagon and a buddy’s Jeep and go camping up on Elk Mountain every year. I will be honest with you…it just about broke my heart the first time I saw what they had done to that forest up there. It kinda made me question my purpose in life. Nahhhh…,just kidding, it all paid the same.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U9zrL_EfvDY
Oh…and one more thing. I would like to to ask Secretary Zinke one compound question that he would have to answer. Who, what, where, when, why and how did what he was referring to occur since the 1980’ and early 1990’s? In other words…in this century.
I have never read anything that was more regurgitated vague assertions and general statements than he the nonsense and drivel that he spouted as fact.
I’m kinda a news junkie…and things like ECOTERROISTS STRIKE AGAIN would really jump out at me and somehow…I missed the entire story.
Memo to Secretary Zinke: The 1980’s called and they want their headlines back.
And I’m not sayin’ it didn’t happen somewhere in California in this century.
But I am sayin’ that if it did…Secretary Zinke and I are both completely ignorant of it happening.
Although I do know someone who is going to be burnin’ up the Google machine later today to try and prove me wrong. Just sayin’…
🙂
We’ve become a country where ANYONE who wants to save some “old growth” or protect a vanishing species is nowadays, ALWAYS labeled as a “radical environmentalist” or an “ecoterrorist”.
The federal government has always had the ability to manage their lands properly, they just haven’t quite figured-out how to accomplish that after all these years. The majority of the lawsuits occur after they’ve fucked something up, or are about to.
Yes…that is exactly right. And I will tell everyone what I think happened from my perspective. When those kids finally had to climb down out of those old growth trees (and they were cut down) because guys like me were enforcing a, “Closre Order”, and their friends couldn’t send food up to then any longer in buckets on a rope, they went to law school and started filing lawsuits in federal court on behalf of the Spotted Owls.
And we thought…Spotted Owls? The only problem with Spotted Owls is that there are too many of them and people just don’t have that much freezer space. Plus, they really aren’t very good eatin’ because they are so boney there just isn’t very much meat on them.
Maybe when Secretary Zinke gets to federal prison for taking his wife on snorkeling vacations to the U. S. Virgin Islands and flying around to give speeches at his donors private fund raising events on MY federal tax dollars, he will have time to read up on what really killed the Department Of Agriculture’s ability to properly manage the forests (as opposed to his department, the U.S. Delartment Of Interior that manages very little forest) was Dubya’s War Of Choice in Iraq. Because after which, the U.S. Forest Service, which is in the Deoartment Of Agriculture was starved of funds as Bob already stated.
Now…if Secretary Zinke wants to call lawyers in suits filing successful lawsuits to stop logging in the Federal Courts, the Sierra Club filing Friend OF The Court legal briefs in support of those lawsuits and those cute little Spotted Owls…ecoterrorists, I would have to agree with him.
Time put the Monkey Wrench Gang out of business. Time and apathy on the part of the American people. THE Woodsman is a pretty good kid, he’s just stubborn about a lot of things…and ignorant about some other things. I hope we are still around when he is our age now, because if we are, we will probably all agree on what the problem is and how to fix it.
Whoops…I cant blame that one on Spell Checker out of control, I just should have put my glasses on BEFORE I hit post it.
Although don’t get me wrong, during the “hay days” (as Bob wrote) of burning when there was s lot more money, it was the equivalent of putting a band aid on a sucking chest wound. That “expectant” (expected casualty) wasn’t going to make it to the aid station anyway.
Gary,
I find it interesting that you left out Clinton’s road closure orders on millions of acres of public land as one of his last acts in his last days of office. You know, roads that provide access for managing the forests for multiple use not to mention forest protection (fire.)
The new ideas birthed in the 60s was based on emotion not logic. It’s now come home to roost. The resource has been deemed more important than human life.
If your travels take you to grizz country I hope you have bear spray as you best not shoot one that’s attempting to eat you. Know what I’m saying?
I don’t need to Google anything. I remember the roadless initiative. Do you? Sure you do.
How many national forests have you seen first hand in the last 20 years?
Ttware,
You are being dishonest or ignorant if you think every lawsuit by environmental groups against the forest service is because they already screwed it up or were about to. That’s utter bullshit with a huge helping of massive ego. Environmental groups have successfully used the courts to block any action they don’t like which may be summarized as no logging, no roads, not thinning, and no nothing. “Wilderness” areas have been expanding and this directly killed 2 firefighters on the Lolo last year. Instead of cutting firelines with machines (the safest way) like the fire team wanted to, hand crews were sent in by the request of the district. Can’t have those evil machines in there! Resource ahead of of human life. A death trap of standing dead (snags) of lodgepole pine. I was there.
How about salvage logging after a fire (which was greatly increased in scope and damage because it was never allowed to be salvaged in the 1st place – ironic, huh?)..because activist groups sued the FS to prevent it long enough for the wood to rot like they knew it would. Is that congruent with your claim? No one’s talking about cutting old growth (spare me the drama), but managing the currently overstocked 3rd or 4th growth. Overstocking reduces tree vigor (stress) leading the weaker trees more susceptible to mortality from insects, windthrow, and ultimately fire. It’s a vicious cycle which should be broken but it’s not largely for the red tape of lawsuits. To claim it’s because the USFS doesn’t know how to properly manage forests is fairly damn insulting to the many professionals currently employed by them. It’s laughable!
Oh you rascal you. Everyone knows going to the National Forests is my thing in my Jeep so the list is too long to write here in this format or any other one for that matter. I avoid National Parks because of all of those pesky laws, rules and regulations restricting what you can and can’t do in them. And when I want to live like it’s the 1800’s in the Wild Wild West…I go to Public Lands managed by the BLM because nobody really cares what anyone does out in those vast lands.
You know I love you like a combative little brother from another mother who always comes out swingin’ and I just like to argue (sometimes) and RTS has gone silent on me because I keep slapping the bitch (non gender specific) out of him.
And I do appreciate President Trump gutting the Bears Ears and Escalante Grand Staircase etc., National Monuments so there are a lot more and much bigger areas where I can go Jeeping this spring because it is all about me, me, me, in the here and now.
Preservation is for the weak and the pitiful like those who work for the National Park Service…am I right?
And I didn’t even go anywhere near one of your Sacred Cows (or bulls) by even bringing up Globull Warming, you know…because that is for bitches (non gender specific) too!
And you know I like to tell stories that get better every time I tell them and you gave me a chance to write about me going Mano a Mano with a giant bunny.
Well, you should learn from me to be an equal opportunity critic & not picking one side you like while ignoring the other. The majority of both sides are controlled by the globalist & not for us little people just trying to live our lives while harming no one in our pursuit of happiness.
I was going to put something derogatory comment in here about hippy fantasy world dreamer motherfuckers…but I’m afraid it would tarnish our relationship so I won’t. Ha!
So you make the rounds on national forests? Cool! What have you seen? Looking hunky dory?
Your reference to the spotted owl short circuited my brain. Have you learned the latest strategy to address the plight of this most majestic creature? You just can’t make this shit up! Which reminds me…i have a statement rolling around in my mind. It goes something like this: the environmental activists love things so much they end up killing them. Owls, trees, etc. I’m starting to believe what they actually hate is humans & by extension, themselves. Well, not starting, I do. Think about it outside of partisan politics, it just may be true. I’m one small leap away from planned population control at this point or at the very least: reduction in human habitation in rural areas.
Nobody said having the ability to think for yourself would be easy.
Come on, man, you can’t ignore my roadless rule citation. Can you? What do you think of that?
W,
I knew my mentioning the Spotted Owl would get you jacked, but I thought by emphasizing their culinary qualities I could strike a balance…thread the needle so to speak.
I really am glad that I didn’t go down Globull Warming path because you might have blown a vessel and had a brain aneurysm and that would have been..sad.
I didn’t respond to the whole roadless thing because I’m not sure I understood it. I do know that in about 1996 I was working out of the BLM Arizona State Office and Washington ordered that huge areas be added as designated Wilderness Areas that could no longer be driven in?
And supposedly a lot of people would get upset because they were closing off vehicle access to areas that had been used for decades or even centuries mostly by some people…I guess?
And everyone in LE was ordered to go out for several weeks to patrol those areas to start the enforcement of the closures, which was a lot of fun because I got out of the office and essentially went wheelin’ in my G Ride 4×4 on the taxpayer dime.
But during all of the time I spent out there I never ran into one person using those areas mad or otherwise. These areas were vast Sonoran Desert blocks basically centered on mountain ranges and very scenic but used very little by anybody for anything.
I didn’t actually think much about it because I was used to orders from Washington that sounded good in press releases but didn’t amount to that much changing on the ground because there were still vast areas around other mountain ranges in the Sonoran Desert that were unaffected.
If you start with a base of 15 million acres of land managed by the BLM in Arizona, and then draw a line on a map designating several hundred thousand of those acres as Wilderness Areas you can’t drive in…or “roadless areas”, you still have vast areas that nobody is using very much for anything except very small areas that are used by specific special interest groups like mining companies, utilities companies for transmission lines, gas pipelines, oil and gas production, ranchers that have one cow per several hundred acres (AUM, Animal Unit Month) because it takes a lot of desert to feed one cow for one month, and what is left over is “boutique” users. An old desert rat here or there, a deer hunter who has been going to the same place for decades and not shooting anything because nothing is there to shoot, and drug smugglers just tryin’ their best to get their products to market to keep the American people supplied with what they want to buy.
So…overall, I thought it was stupid and pointless but I had a good time wheelin’ in my Tahoe and seeing some more very isolated, very remote, very scenic, and very unused Sonoran Desert and it was in the fall so the temperature was great…thank you.
I think it is hard for most people to grasp just how much 15 million acres of land is? The BLM averages one law enforcement officer, (which includes their uniformed rangers, and criminal investigators (Special Agents) and does include all office staff from top to bottom) per one million acres. That is one LE person, for every 1,000,000 acres of Public Lands.
You can go out on a lot of BLM land, build a house and live out your life without anyone ever bothering you. I know…I have seen it, and I have attended the ceremonies (as a bodyguard) where the big shots occasionally give the title to the offender because we never caught up with them.
It happens a lot up on the Navajo Reservation. They have the largest reservation but they also have about 250,000 people I think and it takes a lot of desert you know…for one AUM per sheep as well. When you go deep on the Rez sometimes the English language doesn’t translate that well into Navajo. So up there we say, sheeps. Such as a sign that says “Sheeps In Road”
not “Sheep In Road.” Just FYI.
There we all learned something today and that is what class? Anyone…anyone…anyone? Yes, AUM…means Animal Unit Month.
Can you see why I have a hard time falling asleep? My brain is literally filled to the brim with all kinds of useless information and it just all keeps swirling around up there without an outlet…sad.
Or to put it another way and in the immortal words of Walter Sobchak in “The Big Lebowski”,
“What exactly is the problem?”
Or here is an Executive Summary of everything I said above. The people who drew the lines on a map, drew them around mountains that were already roadless and inaccessible except by foot, horseback or helicopter with the exception of the short access roads that led up to the base of the mountains so the practical implications of the new designations were nil.
Which I guess could really piss somebody off because they can’t drive right up to the base of the mountains to start hiking or riding their horses. But like I said, that would be a very small number of people over a very long period of time. You can spend months out in that country and never see any sign of civilization except for planes in the sky depending on where you are at, or maybe nothing at all?
Oh…and one more thing. I don’t know when the proclamation was signed giving those areas the new designations as roadless areas, but the reason we were sent out in the fall to start enforcing it was because that was during deer season and it was reasoned that was just about the only reason anybody could think of, why anybody would be out there to violate the new designations in the first place.
Crews had already installed signs stating the areas were closed to vehicular travel on what amounted to short access roads that led up to the very base of the mountains or small mountain ranges in some cases.
But even during the “height” of the season, none of us ever encountered a single Mr. or Mrs. John Q. Public utilizing their Public Lands. It looked to me like some clever BLM staff had given maximum acreage the new designation for the press release by drawing their lines around areas that Mother Nature had already made roadless in order to have the least impact on the end Public user. I mean…we are talking about some bad ass wicked rugged and steep country fit mostly only for Desert Big Horn Sheep.
Woodsman,
When the distortion and name-calling begin, it’s a likely sign that someone’s position is either factually weak, or non-existent.
You said: “You are being dishonest or ignorant if you think every lawsuit by environmental groups against the forest service is because they already screwed it up or were about to.
What I actually said was this: “The majority of the lawsuits occur after they’ve fucked something up, or are about to.” “Every” is quite a jump from “majority”. I still stand by that statement today.
Then you said, “Environmental groups have successfully used the courts to block any action they don’t like which may be summarized as no logging, no roads, not thinning, and no nothing.
Eh,…ahem,.. well, the courts DO interpret the laws in this country, and if they find in favor of the environmentalists, then, it turns-out they are on the right side of the law. Don’t like it?? Well you do have a couple of options available to you, either change the laws, or appeal the rulings to the ultra-conservative dominated Supreme Court. The reason that the latter is hardly ever done, is the fact that the environmentalists ARE on the right side of the law in those cases that they prevail-in, and the lawyers recognize that the Supreme Court would uphold the ruling.
Then you said, “Wilderness” areas have been expanding and this directly killed 2 firefighters on the Lolo last year. Instead of cutting firelines with machines (the safest way) like the fire team wanted to, hand crews were sent in by the request of the district.”
I don’t see how you can blame any prior outside lawsuits for specific decisions made by USFS employees (at the district level and above). At every fire briefing, they rave-on about putting firefighter safety first, but the district sent them out there, not the environmentalists, and if shits unsafe, turn it down.
I think it’s probably safe to say that the districts and regions receive much more external pressure from politicians, wealthy land owners, and companies wanting to extract, than they do from “Eco-terrorists”. (Zinke’s word, not mine).
And then, “Can’t have those evil machines in there! Resource ahead of of human life. A death trap of standing dead (snags) of lodgepole pine. I was there.”
If it was a “deathtrap” as you say, why didn’t everyone turn it down, which is exactly the sort of necessity we’ve been talking about here on IM for years now, isn’t it?
Your final comments actually support my arguments, as follows:
“No one’s talking about cutting old growth (spare me the drama), ……………..”
I’ll cite one example, the 2016 Tongass NF Management Plan allows for more “old growth” clear-cutting than has previously occurred.
“……….but managing the currently overstocked 3rd or 4th growth. Overstocking reduces tree vigor (stress) leading the weaker trees more susceptible to mortality from insects, windthrow, and ultimately fire. It’s a vicious cycle which should be broken but it’s not largely for the red tape of lawsuits. To claim it’s because the USFS doesn’t know how to properly manage forests is fairly damn insulting to the many professionals currently employed by them. It’s laughable!”
Overstocking is generally a result of clear-cutting, a form of timber management, which was, and is still, one of the USFS’s management policies. And no, the eco-wackos didn’t sue to allow clear-cutting.
And the same thing is true, although to somewhat if a lessor extend because the size of the areas we are talking about are smaller, about National Forests. TTWRE wasn’t wrong we he said you can go out on most National Forests and spend most of the time, without ever seeing anyone, much less a “Forest Ranger.”
A general guide for the uninformed public (about the land they own collectively) is that the NPS typically deals with the larger National Parks in the “thousands” of acres, although the Grand Canyon is many tens, or even hundreds of thousands of acres…I guess? The USFS typically deals with National Forests in the “millions” of acres, but in the low millions. And the BLM typically deals with “tens of millions” of acres of Public Lands, but most of it is land only God, the BLM and some specific special interest groups and the occasional old Desert Rat could possibly love.
The Phoenix metropolitan area is jam packed loaded with lots of really nice 4×4 rigs, but they never leave the city limits unless they are on highways. The Sonoran Desert really is quite spectacular. Use your Google Machine and ask it to show you, “sonoran desert images” and you will see what I mean.
My son and I put about 65,000 off highway miles in the Sonoran Desert up to the Mogollon Rim in our 04 LJ between 2004 and about 2008. I let our Jeeping website expire, but it had a thousands of photos and videos on it of scenic vistas, wildlife and everything in between.
Well…MOST of them were off highway, because there was a lot of highway miles to get to where the trail started, and then go get back home after the trail ended since our Jeep wasn’t a Trailer Queen like my my 98 TJ and my 06 LJ Rubicon are now. 🙂
Excellent points Gary. I so agree with you!
Right on Diane!
Several years ago when I was living in Flagstaff, I took a Jeep drive down the old abandoned highway from Williams to Chino Valley on a three day weekend during the height of the fire season.
A few miles south of Williams, I saw, several brand new beautiful engines (smaller model 20 type) with three person crews in brand new fire clothes piddling around a whole neighborhood of multi million dollar homes on multi acre wooded “estates” with the name of a private fire fighting service painted on their doors.
I had heard about private fire fighters before, but I had never seen any. I couldn’t tell if they were working on specific homes, or somebody like an insurance company hired them to protect the entire neighborhood?
Or maybe they were hired by homeowners association? I was, and still am very curious about their business model though. It was going to take a lot of contract work other than one three day weekend, on one rich neighborhood, to feed that monkey. Somebody had a lot of money invested in those engines.
Gary,
When I lived in Williams many years ago there was a neighborhood outside of Williams that had to haul their water. Wondering if this could be the area that you saw the private fire protection.
I doubt it although I think everyone who lives outside of Williamd now haul their own water…except for the people I am talking about. If you would have ever seen these faux mountain cabin mansions built on wooded estates, you would know which ones I was writing about.
I think everyone hauls their water except for these people because they can afford to drill to get their water out of the Dongting Lake if they need to. I think most of them were second (or third, fourth or fifth summer or winter estates) homes and nobody was home in any of them when I went by because it was so hot and there were forest closures on.
Would these cabin/homes have been existing in the 1970s?
This would have been before the railroad was revived.
I don’t think so, they all looked fairly new to me? And just to be clear, these aren’t cabins/homes, they are MANSIONS/homes with a mountain chalet flair like they were transplanted from Vail or Park City.
I can’t remember anything like that near Williams in the 1970s. When my son attended NAU imuch later he worked at an upscale golf course that had homes like you are describing but that was near Flagstaff, not Williams.
Trump- I especially agree with you about how evacuees from theCalifornia fires can be expected to stay in tents.
At the risk of sounding like Captain Obvious here, I just feel like I need to state I am absolutely aghast (which is a word I have never used in a sentence before now) at what the death toll is shaping up to be from the Camp Fire.
The confirmed number of dead is already staggering enough and if the numbers they are using as a possibility come anywhere close to being accurate, this is going to be more like the disasters this country experienced in the previous century or two when it comes to the ordering of evacuations in a timely manner and giving people some advance warning to get out of the way of the horror that was coming at them.
And maybe even helping the elderly and infirm to be able to get out of the way? This is going to be like what the death toll could have been in Yarnell during the Yarnell Hill Fire if we hadn’t got so very, very, lucky. But I thought that was an anomaly? What happened and what went so wrong?
I was surprised to read that some wealthy families hired their own personal firefighters to help save their homes from the California wildfires apparently in collaboration with insurance companies.
There are companies that offer that service including clean up and Defendable space.
But you better be well to do it comes with a stiff price.
Thank you, Bob.
Here are some more.
Insurance companies getting into the firefighting game
( https://www.marketplace.org/2015/11/25/sustainability/insurance-companies-getting-firefighting-game )
WildPRO
( http://www.mcneilandcompany.com/our-insurance-programs/wildpro/ )
There are also private companies that are hired by individuals and/or insurance companies, who will come and defend a specific home with firefighters and engines. That, also comes with a stiff price, usually only affordable by the very wealthy and insurers who find it to be a ‘cheap way’ to protect themselves from heavy losses.
TTWARE
This article supports what you posted. This is an ever-increasing movement.
Kim Kardashian’s Private Firefighters Expose America’s Fault Lines
“Rich people don’t get their own ‘better’ firefighters, or at least they aren’t supposed to.”
( https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/kim-kardashian-kanye-west-history-private-firefighting/575887/ )
RTS,
Thank you for sharing this article. I am enjoying the information.
Here are some more.
Insurance companies getting into the firefighting game
( https://www.marketplace.org/2015/11/25/sustainability/insurance-companies-getting-firefighting-game )
WildPRO
( http://www.mcneilandcompany.com/our-insurance-programs/wildpro/ )
Gary Olson says
NOVEMBER 8, 2018 AT 1:19 AM
And I want to thank you and all of my other closest friends and confidants like Joy who have been concerned about my change in marital status. My divorce actually became final last May,
—————-
I still know your quality long time partner now not in same home does not always mean that is always the will and way for down the road…I do see alot of solid stuff happening along with the slice of wars for ya but I will always enjoy the golden ways to your wife now labelled ex by paper but never in heart…she is a solid lady…I really am grateful she was in your life all those years…but that’s me.
🙂
Here’s a comment at the end of a youtube video covering the new Camp fire in CA. I’ve admittedly cherry picked it because it’s exactly what I’m talking about in terms of mis-management of our nations forests/wildlands.
“You are watching decades and decades of wrong headed thinking coming home to roost, in a big big way.
Years ago, I almost had a fight with a forest ranger over the condition of the northern ca forests. He was bragging about their “leave the forest in its natural state” policy. Take a ******* twig out of the forest and you get arrested.
Eco frauds, every single one of them.
and it really burns my *** to hear moonbeam attribute this to globull warming.
No you dumb *** ************, this massive, ongoing disaster is due to forest mis-management…”
??? The fire was on State and County Land not the Forest.
Hope you have been well, Bob.
You of all people here would at the top.of my list of whom I thought would agree that our national forests are mismanaged now compared to decades ago. Do you believe the condition of them are what you could & should be?
I was showing the quote from a local citizen to show some citizens believe they are not being managed properly. I agree with that opinion.
I agree with you on that. But while we need fuel management there are no funds. Up until this year for over a decade they have robed the fuels budget and prevention budget to pay for Fire Suppression Costs. There is so much to do it will take years to accomplish and a ton of money. The other problem is the continued drought Calif. has been was out of Prescription to even burn and reduce fuel.
Even in our hay day we could not keep up with the millions of acers of fuels reduction. Plus what we did after the 80s was not maintained in Southern Calif. Ignoring it is not the answer.
My statement above was based on the Two large fires in Calif. State and County land.
Hope you are well too. Still doing great headed for 75 in January.
.
HUGE PRAYERS to you Firefighters and Civilians in CA today/tonight…and for the too many deaths already that have not been “yet” reported to the world…I am very sorry they all are facing this but I am sure “safe nets should get active about now, eh
Come on…it has to be done.
I would like to make an appointment to most of these fire industry leaders’ office but heck I probably be walking into hell with fluorescent lighting. The stuff going on in CA is really much worse than what the media is letting on…I should be a PIO or P.I. even though Gary seems to think I suck at investigating….But then again when Gary thinks of me he thinks “I feel so miserable without you, it’s almost like having you here.
Wake up, world.
Fire behaviors are becoming a new normal…get jaded…I meant avoid becoming jaded 😉
they are beginning to tell a wee bit…
KEEP IT UP…because if you do not… I WILL
I am serious.
It is nuts what chaos you are allowing…
https://youtu.be/atGsin1ik1I
I can just imagine if I was in those offices like a fly on the wall — it would be like them asking How would you describe my leadership?
Great!? Greater!? Greatest!?
I don’t think you suck at anything. I have been waiting quite a while for the some of the secret things you have said will be coming…soon?
You know…except for punctuation, you kinda do suck at punctuation.
Oh…and one more thing, actually two more things;
1. I’m pretty sure no one has the authority to ever reopen the Yarnell Hill Investigation except for Arizona State Forestry and I’m also pretty sure that will never happen. So…
2. We don’t have any of the resources we would need to even think about creating our own staff ride, which includes access to the area. So…
Someone I know just got a text tonight appx 7pm that they re-opened the Yarnell Hill Fire investigation – anyone else hear this? came out of New Mexico –
today at 6:39am- some NM Hybrids stated there is a group gathering to discuss YH Fire
These folks trying to re-open this fire — do note — it will take the collectiveness of the homeowners and WF/FFs and the overhead to truly tell the tragic day — otherwise it is just up perceptions but again anyone that comes forward I will make sure it is told correct not like what garbage I hear in the LESSONS LEARNED LLC video here:
https://youtu.be/TE6Rfa3Vuo0
I stand by my comments and today plan to post this video content on my blog in case they decide to do the right thing and remove the video and do right
I cannot believe these men spoke on what they labelled hallowed ground as they did…That is not right…I encourage these men to re-take the walk with me…learn some new lessons…
You can lead a horse to water they say but ya can’t make him drink…but for they are drinking the kool-aid
typ:
but FOR SURE
here is my post:
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/11/09/The-Wildland-Fire-Lessons-Learned-Center-WFLLC-alleges-to-accurately-promote-a-learning-culture-to-enhance-and-sustain-safe-and-effective-work-practices-using-past-and-present-lessons-to-improve-for-the-future-safe-work-practices-advance-organizational-learning-and-share-lessons-learned-and-knowledge-within-the-entire-wildland-fire-community-while-promoting-organizational-change-toward-safer-more-effective-practices-Why-are-these-alleged-WFLLC-sponsored-leaders-so-disingenuously-and-perilously-attempting-to-persuade-us-otherwise-all-while-claiming-Sense-making-and-Learning-on-Hallowed-Ground
in case they ever change or delete or edit the page.
I totally disagree with Dotsons comments..
If this is the new normal, why are we still putting peoples lives at risk???
thank you Rocksteady
Thank you
Dotson is not a bad guy nor Heaton or Carroll but you go look at my public records on Gage and you listen to Cota…those men make my blood boil being they are gonna say what they did…I hope they make a new video saying OOPS that was the trend and fad of 2014 when injunctions of harassment were heavily being glazed in 2014…and out of fear said that shit…this is 2018 and time for them to fix that video
Sonny had to reschedule cancer surgery – slowly healing – at home so far and was able to ask me if any good looking red heads want to stop by his place and help him load wood for his wood burning stove, he is okay with that 😉
Not a bad guy?
In my book, anybody who helps cover the truth & contributes to the continuation of a narrative in spite of the likelihood of it being not the full story, & knowingly toes the company line under the guise of working for a “lessons learned (past tense) center,” whose action or inaction may lead to future firefighter injuries or fatalities……..is, in fact, a bad guy.
Just the same, anyone who exposes themself to ridicule, condemnation by the system, or risks their very own reputation & future in order to tell the whole truth and therefore maximize the odds of real learning taking place, ensuring increased firefighter safety in the future, is a good guy. You know, like Putnam for example.
It’s past time to call a spade a spade.
I felt Dotsons comments were like, “meh, shit happens. Whats the big deal”…
Today, I will update on Tex’s Health on the post
now that I am at the cabin.
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/11/03/How-Many-Lives-Does-One-Man-Have-I-Always-Thought-It-Was-Two-The-Second-One-Began-When-One-Realized-They-Only-Have-One-Life-Not-For-Tex-Harold-Eldon-Gilligan-Sonny-This-Is-His-Medical-Status-Update-Post-Tex-Being-On-The-Weaver-Mountains-June-30-2013-Was-Very-Important-To-The-Wildland-Fire-Industry-Too-Many-Times-He-Has-Been-Thanked-For-His-Fire-Knowledge-Experience-Let-This-Post-Honor-The-Fallen-By-Sharing-About-Sonny-Who-Is-On-A-Road-To-Recovery-
I will try and get a “live” audio update so he can tell you versus me typing.
I did see this email from him to me:
Nov 6, 2018, 7:51 PM
I know you’re busy right now so you don’t have to reply. I was able to finally to get on investigative media thanks for the concern of all those friends of like thinking. If any of you on investigative media ever want to stop by you got a place you can have free electric hook up and water and toilet even if you’ve got a unit…
he added the actually contact but I feel he should let people know that via email not for the world here]
… I’m waiting out here in front of my kids house been here for a couple hour. He has to change my dressing on my back because I can’t do it very well anyway. Fortunately he’s an RN so he knows how to do it right. Yes he said I took 6 units of blood most people died at 5 and 7 units you’re completely out of blood. I don’t know why I wasn’t scared on this one except I thought how the hell am I going to get to my 223 cuz I thought somebody was firing at me at first but I realized that I’d taken off 12 Bridge blast to the back. Joy right I was supposed to stay in the hospital another couple weeks but that didn’t happen I love all of you and appreciate the idea that you continue to exposed the malady that killed 19 at Yarnell. I can’t post right here off of this phone but it’s translating better than usual.”
I am imaging his talk to text is off; see: Nov 6, 2018, 7:53 PM … “Oh I was reading Gary’s call Matt at the beginning before I read all that stuff about me and I was thinking what a good writer and that he has so much to say that is going to help the young Wildland fire fighter stay alive. I hope to get a copy of his book with an autograph barrier that would make my day. I haven’t bought that lottery ticket yet but some guy told me where your kind of luck you better get one.”
Tex also stated to me once he had that other surgery over the weekend he was leaving the hospital Monday and he did (talk to text errors) —:
Nov 5, 2018, 3:39 PM “on my way home you’re giving me a regular discharge and vac machine Mark is pulling his Tesla around there and I will me out in a wheelchair but I could walk
No additional information — no cowboy campfire with dog photos — again I think his cancer surgery is one week from today so I can see why he wanted to get home versus staying in the hospital.
That is it and thank you from him as it meant a lot to him to read the encouragement words.
I still am a girl who believes in hope and reconciliation even if you have a 40 plus long years history. You faced some wars this year Gary but like you said better days are coming…Moab…Keep on trucking…I mean “jeeping”…
🙂
this is funny
someone did a video game character of Sonny:
https://youtu.be/H733Wf1ve9Q
Petty Armani tells us her perception what went down with Sonny and Charlie:
https://youtu.be/liitSlBDL1w
at 1:24 marker Saturday Night Live talks about Sonny last Saturday:
https://youtu.be/JEDSoG08MJY
UPDATE ON SONNY:
11-7-18 5:55pm (Sonny wanted me to represent him to Brittany Kraus of CBS Inside Edition so at 3:50pm I spoke 14:44 minutes with her trying to figure the best way to get the interview direct of Sonny at home with Charlie the dog that shot him. On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 4:06 PM working via cell to help Sonny Skype for an interview with Inside Edition with reporter Jim Moret and when Sonny sent me pics of the dog and him at Nov 7, 2018, 4:51 PM. I decided I want no part in assisting on this interview – “broken hearted” – both Charlie and Sonny are in no condition to do an interview in my humble opinion and I have known him since 8.23.11 – I shared to Sonny since his son is off tomorrow they (Sonny and his son) can reach Brittany or Rachel Ahn or Jim Moret but I will post updates here and when I see an uplifting photo even lil’ wee better than tonight’s than I will post it here but I will never post the photos I got today – not right. It would be wrong for me to do that. Also in talking to him I caught the long pauses in breathing and the hearing capacity difficulties and more and I am just praying. I will in the next 24 hours place his audio on here. ). Sonny, rest well. I cannot erase that images you shared tonight … Sorry, you know .. really, people do not get how rough you have it because you always seem so tough …Sonny stated he heard the skit they did on himself on Saturday Night Live. I have not yet seen it. Anyone? have the skit? – email link to me.
Jim Moret, I think it would be very enlightening if you took the travel time to meet Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) and tell him your personal story … that dark path … I think in meeting and knowing Sonny you will see a bridged message in your interview. God Bless you. I think your interview should be about you and Sonny and the bridging inspirational message it can offer the world.
I wrote the following comment during my hiatus, but I’m pretty sure I never posted it. My divorce did become final after 40 years of marriage, but frankly, it seemed like it was much, much…much longer. And of course I am joking, I was the problem, I mean…I get tired of me but wherever I go…there I am.
They should never have let me retire, they should have put me in a glass cage with a sing that say’s, “Break Glass In Case Of An Emergency, or just taken me out to a field and shot me in the head, I just don’t fit in with civil society because I need something like the next big fire, investigation or operation to chase after. But noooo, when Congress wrote our early mandatory retirement law, they specified they wanted a “youthful and vigorous workforce” that is the same for FIRE people. But all they did was to take my leash off and set me loose. Now all I do is wander around and looking for someone’s leg to either piss on or bite, while I hoping someone feeds me. But I do have some good news…I called Geico and I am going to save a ton of money on my car insurance.
And I moved down to Medford, Oregon so I could be near my grandchildren which includes a brand new granddaughter. I am growing my hair out because I want a ponytail and I joined Tinder to make it easier for hot chicks who are nearby…to hook up with me.
The other good news is that I am now back in the saddle working on my book(s). Which of course includes my highly anticipated tome, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” and “Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighter.” Hey…I got their book covers done, that should count for something…right? And of course I still have, who are my closest friends and confidants. That is why I can bare my soul to you and not be afraid to be in touch with my feminine side while I overshare. I know you won’t judge me harshly, well…maybe RTS will, but we established a long time ago that he is a Richard Cranium…right? Wait…was that comment about my feminist side misogynistic? Because it sounds kinda misogynistic? I hope not.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
And while you are checking out my very cool photos, be sure and take a good look at the very Good Dogs who are helping me babysit Violet.
Oh yeah, I am I found my Final Chapter in a dusty digital storage file and I am back to doing some final editing on it, so I can finally get the damn thing published so I can quit bringing it up as an excuse for not getting anything else done.
Routine Housekeeping & Closing The Loop
I got engaged with The Woodsman downstream regarding what I knew about WF deliberately igniting or letting wildfires burn and get bigger outside of any “let burn” policy or prescribed fire plan.
None of the spaghetti I threw against the wall was what W was referring to specifically, so he directed me to Dr. Putnam’s paper that outlined the two situations in question. The first one being where the District Ranger (chief administrative manager for a given area of a National Forest) letting a fire grow to become a project fire because it would increase his status and help build his reputation for career advancement. The second one mentioned by Dr. Putnam was an old school jumper saying to him something to the effect of, “Welcome to the dark side of firefighting” when he questioned some tactics they were using that enabled the fire to grow larger without achieving any strategic advantage.
As we have talked about before, the USFS is a big organization and there are significant differences between how things are done in one part of the country versus another, so I don’t doubt Dr. Putnam did encounter those situations during his career, but I did not.
I have always considered myself fortunate to have worked for the USFS during the period that I did (1974 – 1988) because I think those were the transition years between the old school USFS and the modern USFS and there is one thing I know for sure, the old school USFS was a lot more fun than the new one. For one thing, there was a lot more cowboys who rode hard for the brand and shot from the hip without putting a lot of thought into where their rounds were going downrange. Back in the day, a forester could take his deer rifle and his dog out with him to cruise timber, or whatever foresters do, to where he had scouted out that big buck ran and then put himself on annual leave, shoot his deer, field dress it and then haul it back to the work center compound in his government truck.
We used to go out as a hotshot crew with the Hopi Indians who ran the District dozer to a thicket of oak trees the foresters had designated for a fuel reduction treatment and we would cut them all down. The dozer would skid them up to our landing and then we would buck them up into fireplace size logs, load them on the five ton truck that was used to haul the dozer around and presto…all of the professionals who lived in the compound would have their firewood for the winter. I’m pretty sure they don’t do that anymore.
But I did hit on one area of abuse below that was widespread, and that when the District Ranger who was fortunate enough to have a major wildfire on his District could buy a lot of new equipment by using FFF (I don’t even know what those initials stand for) using fire supression dollars from the black hole money pit (the fire’s Management code) that came with every big project fire. And a lot of equipment that had been destroyed in the fire was purchased and replaced that had never even existed in the first place. They really cracked down on that 30 years or more back, so that just doesn’t happen anymore…I don’t think? But I never even caught a whiff of someone deliberately setting a fire or letting one get bigger in order to be able to do that.
I also have a tendency to think that wasn’t going on during my years because District Rangers didn’t have anything to do with fighting s wildfire on their District in later years, that was all handled by outside fire teams that were brought in from other areas so I don’t really see how that would enhance the local district rangers reputation. The way for everyone to increase their profile and relative worth to the organization was to volunteer to be overhead on the fire teams themselves, which most of the old school district rangers did. There was a real sense that it was everybody’s duty to pitch in and fight the Big Ones. I also think the USFS lost a lot of that once they started recruiting people who viewed working for the USFS simply as a Civil Service job as WTKTT puts it. Back in the day, most people thought of it as a calling and a way of life, but never merely as just another Civil Service job.
So anyway…if it would have been the “old days”, the GMIHC would have pushed an older ATV they were having mechanical problems with up to the fires edge and then abandoned it to be burned up so the fire would have bought them a new. Now that…was Standard Operating Procedure back in the day!
The second situation was the old school jumper who introduced Dr. Putnam to the dark side of wildland firefighting. And frankly…I wouldn’t put anything past an old school smokejumper from back in the day. I’m sure almost everyone saw the movie “Blackhawk Down” when the commanding officer walked up to the Special Forces soldier who had shot the pig from the helicopter when he cut in the chow line? Anyway…the officer noticed the SF guy didn’t have the safety on his M4 engaged, and ordered him to do so. And instead of following that order, the SF wiggled his finger at the officer and said, “This is my safety.”
That is how all old school smokejumpers were and probably still are, arrogant and as independent as they could possibly be. They were used to working in remote areas in small groups of others just like themselves (and often just one other) out of sight and out of mind and doing things their own way. And none of them followed the rules or took orders worth a damn. And although almost all smokejumpers are ex hotshots, a gaggle of smokejumpers are diametrically opposite a crew of hotshots. Whereas the hotshot crew is highly structured, disciplined and organized, a gaggle of smokejumpers aren’t structured, disciplined or organized. Smokejumpers were truly a breed that was set apart from the rest of us mere mortals. Hotshots march in tool order in crew lines…smokejumpers just kinda mosey along in gaggles. So no, I wouldn’t put anything past an old school smokejumper…absolutely nothing. : )
And I really need to speak to my comment proof reader, because that last comment has a higher than normal number of typos…and my bar is set very low.
And I really don’t think I had my “Size Does Matter” PSA bumper stickers on my website the last time I embedded a hyper link, soplease be sure and scroll far enough down to check them out. I really crack myself up…sometimes.
Oh…and one more thing since it is very important for all of my closest friends and confidants to stay current on my life, I will only be here for a few months because you know…I will get bored. And then I will figure out how to get my three highly modified Jeeps (98 TJ, 04 LJ, and one of the very best Jeeps ever built, a 2006 LJ Rubicon) so I can go Jeeping in the Great Southwest. You know…in MOAB! and the San Juan Mountains of Colorado.
The only thing that I am sad about, my best friend and Jeeping Buddy is gone now (as you already know). I had a wife for 40 years and a dog for 16 years and both of them were with me we moved to that damn rain forest. I sure am going to miss that dog.
And FYI, the reason they should never let me retire is because I was to INSTITUTIONALIZED to be ever be set loose. I don’t know how to manage myself, I need a master. And now…I am facing the greatest opponent I have ever encountered without the awesome power of the federal government to back me up. And that foe is…the blank digital page on my computer.
But…my book jackets are very cool…right. I love to play with Photoshop. But then again…I love to do almost anything other than sit in front of my computer and try to transfer my random thoughts into coherent sentences. Oh look…more election results are coming in now…gotta go.
Gary said:
“I got engaged with The Woodsman downstream regarding what I knew about WF deliberately igniting or letting wildfires burn and get bigger outside of any “let burn” policy or prescribed fire plan.”
After legendary IC Van Bateman got busted and convicted for setting numerous arson wildfires, Jim Paxton (formerly USFS), who had been hired by the television media as a wildfire subject matter expert, said in an interview regarding those arsons: “We all used to do it”.
A stunning admission, of which, I was witness to, and possibly the reason Paxton is no longer a media wildfire expert.
Jim Paxton is more full of bullshit than just about about anyone I have ever known. He was more of a performer and entertainer for the mainstream media who all ate up his bullshit with ladles Paxton supplied to them. His costume, mannerisms, vocabulary and accent were all stage props for his monkey on a leash act.
That is more or less how all PIO’s are and is in line with their primary job descriptions, Paxton just took it to another whole level of ridiculousness.
Paxton sky rocketed from the minor leagues to the majors during and in the aftermath of the Rodeo-Chediski Fire of 2002 when he received a lot of national attention from the media. He is nothing more than a necessary evil to keep the news media and concerned cituzens happy by coordinating Dog and Pony shows and doing his pet monkey tricks.
Paxton was just one of dozens of interagency fire team officials who had been close friends and colleagues of Van Bareman who all banded together and prostitured themselves and shoveled shit onto the reputations and honor of the entire wildland firefighting profession in a blatantly obvious and very transparent attempt to fool the federal judge to go easy on Barpteman during his sentencing.
Fortunately…they were so amateurish and childish about it the judge wasn’t fooled for one minute. In the end, the judge gave the same weight to their lies as he would have if he would have been sentencing a pedophile who was supported by other pedophikes who all got together and said, “Hey…who amoung us has not fondled and when given the opportunity…diddled a beautiful little boy or girl? Van was just doing what came natural and something we all have done as often as we could.
And since I have adopted a new policy to clean up my potty mouth I am not going to tell you what I really think of Paxton and everyone else who exchanged not only their reputations, honor and integrity in a failed attempt to help a man who deserved every day he spent in a federal penitentiary, but they took it upon themselves to do the same to my reputation and all of those honest, hardworking, and selfless US Forest Service District Fire Management Officers who were the thin red line between the chaos of wildfire while maning the firlines in obscurity to protect the American people, their property and national forests.
DFMO’s (and others) who I proudly worked for and who had more integrity in a pimple on their asses then Paxton has in his entire worthless body. Men like Ron Melcher, Hub Harris, Richard Allred and Orlando Romero.
Shame, shame, shame on Van Bateman and Jim Paxton.
And I think I was a little harsh on Van because he was, and probably still is…a sick man with a psychological disorder called pyromania who has a compulsion to set things on fire and has an irresistible impulse to start fires as an arsonist.
But…that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have been stopped and punished accordingly by our criminal justice system. I had known and worked with the USFS special agents who conducted that investigation for about 15 years at the time and they are men of the highest integrity who conducted a professional and thorough investigation. And Bateman’s guilty verdict and sentence validated their hard work. Those men were part of the thin blue line that stands between the American people and CHAOS.
But…Paxton does not have any excuse. It is possible to both love and respect Bateman as I do for the sacrifice and contribution he made to this country which included being IC on “The Pile” in NYC that was left after we were attacked by Islamin Terrorists, without excusing his pyromania and the shame he brought upon our profession.
Van and I were both Coconino National Forest hotshot crew bosses and we both loved and respected Bill Buck. But I was “a” Coconino Hotshot Crew Boss, but Bateman was the Gold Standard by which everyone else was judged against. I’m sorry he is mentally ill, I hope he got some good psychological counseling in federal prison for being a ******* fire bug. Wildfire is our enemy, it kills and destroys everything it touches without anger, malice, compassion or forgiveness…and every Fire has the potential to become a wildfire in an instant.
I ought to know…I made lots of 💰 fighting escaped prescribed burns from one end of the country to the other! 😄
Gary,
I have no doubt your recollections are accurate as can be. Do you believe it’s possible that many irresponsible (possibly criminal) actions occurred in the handling of wildfires that you never knew existed?
How many pseudo – VanBatemans have there been? You know….gettin a little loose with the rules. Big fires build big reputations and careers. (Big bank accounts too)
I’ve seen more occurrences I refuse to attribute to merely bad luck or incompetence than I ever wanted to. I suggest you revisit your classic glass half full or half empty credo.
Ttware struck a nerve. Why?
Oh, & I agree with your assessment of Paxton as I run across many like him. Enjoyed reading that.
Great job landing on your feet & best wishes in your new chapter of life!
And I’m here to tell you right now that the prevalence of personnel playing loose with the rules will.most certainly increase due to the new FAD of fire reintroduction to the landscape. Let it burn is the wave of the future. Just go read dikheds blog, it’s pimped on a weekly basis. They want it all to burn as the new age belief is that we all royally fuked up by putting them out in the first place.
Mark my word, it’s not coming, it’s already here. An arsonist portrayed as a firefighters dream come true!
What is it about most people that there minds can only think on a level of one extreme or the other? There’s no middle ground. Never understood that.
Active scientific-based forest management, road maintenance, fuel break construction & upkeep, and a robust & sound logging industry coming back where it was previously destroyed are the real answers to the problem. But, nobody wants to answer the question truthfully. They react emotionally to the symptoms with irrational concepts & fairly tale pipedreams.
The Woodsman & others like him have no voice in the matter. We’re just forest technicians in the woods every day…..so what the fuck do we know?
And I’m not cleanin up.jack shit as far as my language goes. It helps to portray my passion for the subject. Walk in my boots. Witness the mismanagement of our national forests. See the 1/2 trillion dollars of rotting timber across mile after mile of landscape. Help extinguish a lightning strike fire in that hopeless wasteland. Read the reports of those who die year after year fighting the futile battle on the fucked up piece of land…….then come talk to me. You’ll be cussing like a sailor who lost his grog overboard just like me.
Gone fishin, mother fuckers!
Wait. Do I sound bitter?
I think man (and women) have a relationship with fire that goes back even much further in our history as a species than our bond with dogs that began with our ancestors domesticating wolves. That being said, I am going to try and thread the needle here by differentiating between a normal and healthy fascination and love affair with fire like I have…and being a fire bug like Van Bateman was and probably still is, he just isn’t active anymore…I hope..
As we all know, I was the founder and first crew boss of the storied Santa Fe Hotshots, not to mention the last crew boss of the equally legendary Happy Jack Hotshots, but forgive me…I digress once again. But…while I was the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss, I directed some able fellows to take a 4×8 sheet of plywood and router the following words into it;
If you do it for money, you’re an arsonist
If you do it for fun, you’re a pyromaniac
If you do it for both, you’re a hotshot
WELCOME
And I had them paint the large words with bright red paint and mount it on posts in front of our hotshot headquarters. Now of course that was done as part of a team and esprit de corps building exercise for our crew because hotshots are neither arsonists or pyromaniacs, they are professional wildland firefighters, but it’s complicated. And that is because very few things are as fun or exciting as torching off an entire drainage as a backfire in front of a raging wildfire, but it’s complicated.
One side effect of studying Criminal Justice in college and then later in a series of law enforcement academies, was learning just how sick and bad so many people are…naturally. For example…I learned about what has to be one of the most disturbing mental illnesses there is and that is necrophilia. And yes…I think you would find a much higher percentage of morticians who are necrophiliacs than you will find in the general population.
As a former Wildland Arson Investigator. I also know you will find a much higher percentage of pyromaniacs who are firefighters than you will find in the general population. And based on my experience, within the ranks of volunteer firemen is one of the first places you should look if you are looking for an arsonist, And unfortunately…I think the shocking number of fire officials who have been charged and found guilty of being arsonists over the decades prove that assertion to be correct.
I am also aware that there have been extreme cases of part time (call when needed) wildland firefighters who have set fires over the years to generate work because mama needed a new pair of shoes. I remember when it got so back in Alaska, the BLM Alaska Fire Service had to bring in crews from thousands of miles away because there were so many fires being set near Alaskan Native villages in the interior.
But…those cases are one offs and aren’t the norm. For one thing, it’s pretty hard to create your own work because the geographic distances that are involved in mobilizing crews. Someone setting fires to create work up by Questa, New Mexico for example may actually be creating work for the Green Mountain Boys, wherever the hell the Green Mountain Boys are from…New Hampshire…or Vermont or Maine or some other damn place east of the Mississippi?
So…yes, it is very possible there are more fire bugs like Bateman out there who were better than he was at not getting caught. I did one case in southern New Mexico where one young volunteer fireman kept beating everyone else to the fire station and he had the engine out and ready to go when everybody else showed up. Of course he was no match for an experienced interrogator like I was, that and the fact it was pretty easy to show him he could not have possibly seen the fire starts from the locations he kept claiming he saw them from that enabled him to keep getting his head start on everyone else including the 911 dispatchers,
So that all being said, it would be hard to find someone who was more integrated and immersed in the Forestry Technician wildland firefighter culture than I was for 14 years and I never caught any hint of the kind of arson Bateman was guilty of by anyone, at any time, for any reason…period. And I saw wrongdoing of just about everything else and I will be happy to tell you about it because we don’t have any secrets from each other here. Well…I think RTS probably has some, but I think we can all agree he is a Richard Cranium at times…am I right?
And I want to thank you and all of my other closest friends and confidants like Joy who have been concerned about my change in marital status. My divorce actually became final last May, but we didn’t find it convenient to move to separate residences until a few weeks ago. Nor did my former wife accept any of my pension even though she was more than entitled to half of it since she bore the brunt as a single parent while I chased the grade and the next big thing. And best of all, no lawyers were involved because neither one of us thought any thing of value in our lives was worth it. And now I have my reward…I am a tumbleweed free to go wherever the wind takes me. But…I did get to see the elephant quite a few times and what a priceless sight they were.
And now…I am going to treat all of you, who are indeed my closest friends and confidants to an excerpt from my highly anticipated and much acclaimed tome, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” in which I try to explain how I feel about fire because it’s…complicated.
“Fire is beautiful. One of my favorite memories is sitting in front of our flagstone hearth at home watching the bright flickering flames from the fireplace, especially if the ground outside was covered with a thick blanket of white snow. I remember camping out often near clear mountain streams surrounded by some of the most beautiful forests in the world, drifting off to sleep as our campfires slowly died down to a glowing beds of red hot coals.
I can still hear the pop as embers shot out from the fire ring followed by a trail of sparks as the bright flames consumed the juniper logs. I can vividly recall the distinct aroma of burning piñon wood and see the flaming hard oak that made the fire last longer against the crisp cold night air. Clear mountain streams, cold nights, blue mountains and towering forests of western ponderosa pine trees are some of my fondest memories from growing up in northern Arizona.
After heating a large house for several years in a rural area outside of Santa Fe with nothing but firewood however, I am now content to occasionally sit and rock my granddaughter to sleep while being hypnotized by the bright flickering flames from a gas log fireplace.
I spent almost all of my free time scouting for wood, cutting wood, loading wood, hauling wood, splitting wood, stacking wood, carrying wood into the house, building the fires, stoking the fires, hauling out the ashes and then making sure the ashes did not set something on fire either at our house or at the county dump. Not to mention constantly worrying about the kids getting burned either by playing too close to the fireplace or by touching the cast iron wood stove, or by goofing around with the campfire while roasting marshmallows. The very first word my youngest daughter learned to speak was “hot,” and she damn well understood what it meant. I am now a big fan of central heating in my home and day trips into the back country in my Jeep rather than camping out for the night.
There is nothing however, beautiful about wildfire. The only adjectives that can be used to describe wildfires are synonymous with words like devastating or terrifying. Sometimes words like awesome can be used, but never beautiful. Wildfire is a deadly enemy that relentlessly kills and consumes all life in its path of total destruction.
Firefighters have a love/hate relationship with fire. Wildfire destroys everything it touches and must be extinguished down to the last hot spot before the hard and time consuming job of “mop up” is finished. On the other hand…fire is one of the most important and useful tools in a firefighters arsenal. Wildland firefighters often fight wildfire…with fire. This is just one of the many paradoxes in the world of wildland firefighting.”
Oh…and one more thing. The reason TTWARI struck a nerve for the same reason a Boy Scout leader, teacher or Priest who does an honorable job and doesn’t molest children doesn’t like it when someone in one of those positions do. The widely publicized criminal acts of a rogue criminal can cause the general public to paint everyone in the same profession with a broad brush and bring shame on everyone. And. An Bateman despicable acts hit really close to where I am from and who I think I am.
Woodsman,
I guess I never really answered your question,
Yes…it’s very possible. I am only saying I never encountered it. But as I have said many times, my experiences were quite really limited and very focused on what we did as a hotshot crew. I didn’t get involved with any other levels or what anyone else was doing. I was also quite naive and isolated from anything that didn’t directly involve my crew. I’m sure I also thought, or assumed everyone else shared my values and many people probably didn’t. And as you know, Hotshots crews come fast, do their jobs and then they are gone and usually only to big and complex fires.
Gary,
My opinions in this matter are also nuanced. Is Bateman a sick in the head pyromaniac or a product of the system, albeit an example at the far end of the spectrum?
Those who have something to gain from significant events require significant events in order to do so. People whose reputations & egos are enhanced by campaign (large & complex) fires NEED them to occur in the first place. Herein lays the nexus of the “wink wink nod nod” behavior. This behavior can be overt or subtle behind the scenes actions or inactions that are known by the actors that the behavior is more likely to result in the desired outcome.
My position is these behaviors occur in many areas across the country at many different levels. Some people are more skilled than others at hiding it but it’s there.
The new national unofficial official let it burn policy creates a much more fertile environment for this behavior to become even more prevalent.
Who benefits, and in what way, to having a significant fire on their district or forest?
I hope I’m being more clear that I’m not talking about typical acts of a classic pyromaniac here.
Here are a few examples of covert acts that would potentially lead to a desired outcome (significant fire event): in parentheses I’ll include the typical rationality.
1. Delayed ordering of adequate resources (costs)
2. Dispatching minimal resources (costs)
3. When formulating tactics, lean towards indirect and creation of a large containment area (safety)
4. Dispatching of resources with inadequate experience commensurate with the level of potential fire complexity (employee development)
See where I’m going with this? People aren’t required to actually go out & physically drop a match to get what they want. And for every single method I can come up with to enhance the scale and significance of a wildfire, I can tell you a potential rationale for each one.
And I think I just did a btter job of addressing your point up above. All of those things were beyond my pay grade, concern or interest. As I like to say, I really only knew three things…or four things.
1. Cut line and backfire.
2. Cut line and burnout.
3. Cut line and backfire and burnout.
4. Mop up until told to leave.
5. Repeat steps 1 through 4 as often as necessary.
My world as a hotshot was very simple and pure. VENI VIDI VICI
This message is aimed at crews that focus purely on “I came, I saw, I conquered.” I love it! It’s simple and easy to understand. While you are doing that stuff please be aware of the countless fire managers and overhead who are at the same time both overtly and covertly attempting to kill you.
Thank you.
Yes you did know & live those basic directives but now you are a wise elder capable of much deeper thinking into the system as a whole.
I accept full responsibility in my inability to get my point across with this.
Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts and in the development of my personal theories as to the repeated abject failures in fire management in this country.
I have been giving this subject a lot of thought last night and this morning and you have made me realize I really had no idea what was going other than what was in front of me.
My answer in the very beginning of this discussion should have been to either keep silent (but that no fun) or simply said, “I don’t know. Back in those days as a hotshot crew boss, the USFS strictly observed the Mushroom Principle, they kept me in the dark and fed my bullshit. I didn’t ask any questions and no one ever volunteered any answers.”
That’s probably why I did pretty good as a hotshot in spite of my flaws, I kept my mouth shut and worked as hard as I could to accomplish my assigned task.
I am really thankful men like RTS changed things by modernizating and professionalizing hotshot crews and youngsters like you are now free to think and ask questions because without a doubt, the wildland firefighting world is a much better and safer place to live in because of you, RTS and others like you.
Which all really begs the underlying question here even more;
“SO WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED WITH THE GMIHC AND WHY DID ERIC MARSH MALFUNCTION SO FUCKING BAD?”
“SO WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED WITH THE GMIHC AND WHY DID ERIC MARSH MALFUNCTION SO FUCKING BAD?”
I’m going to provide my answer to this question to my best ability.
The chief of Prescott city fire department, with help from his buddies in the Forest Service, decided the create a “wildland fire division” within his organization. The division, which repeatedly morphed into more & more capable resources up to & including an actual Interagency Hotshot Crew (from a small fuels reduction outfit.) This development can only be achieved by the full support and endorsement of the USFS or other federal wildfire agency, in this case the forest service.
In order to pitch the idea to the local governing body, a case had to be made concerning cost control. They pitched it as a money maker.
Ultimately the person chosen to lead the crew in the field was Marsh. He had history of bad behavior while serving on a federal fire crew apparently. All indicators point to him being focused on a goal but with questionable interpersonal skills. (It’s not uncommon for us in the wildland service to have rough personalities)
Marsh was aided and abetted in his dream of leading a bona fide hotshot crew by senior leadership of the fire district, Prescott city FD, and various representatives of federal agencies. He didn’t do this alone without support.
Once the goal was met of attaining IHC status, the pressure to perform and prove themselves was on. It is likely many traditional crews talked under their breathe about this new kid on the block & this became Marsh’s plight to prove them wrong. This constant need to prove their worth resulted in a pattern of risky behavior on fires. Think of this as Veni Vidi Vici on steroids!
Despite the evidence surfacing later that this excessive risk taking was well known in hotshot circles, no one either attempted and/or was successful in turning the train around. With all the underlying factors in play, the inertia of the granite mountain hotshot was too great. Enter a new fire on Yarnell hill.
After the crew received positive recognition for their efforts on the Doce fire they were supposed to be on r&r. The original organisers of the crew & the list of enablers bent the rules at the last minute & the crew found themselves hiking the hill to what be their last fire, their last stand.
Field promotions were made, the crew leadership was fractured, personality conflicts ensued, and unqualified field leaders made unrealistic demands of a hand crew to protect structures. I should point that the very reasons the Yarnell Hill escalated into such a huge fireball are for the very reasons I have pointed out above.
The crew violated the most basic rules of fire, succumbing to pressures from leadership, and ultimately fell prey to their flawed origin of a one of a kind crew. The mix was too much.
It would be helpful to be able to review the whole set of facts but they have been buried. Therefore, by design, we have limited information to fully study, understand, and convey real lessons learned to future firefighters. The reputations and criminal histories of the players at Yarnell are more precious to the powers that be than the lives of 19 fathers, husbands, uncles, and sons. The same is apparently true of all future firefighters and their loved ones.
Hey…that’s a pretty damn good Executive Summary. Thanks. I am just going to copy and paste it and my book about the Yarnell Hill Fire is done.
Woodsman & Gary,
While I fully defer to Gary when it comes to the intricate details of Bateman’s and Paxton’s behaviors, to include moral deficiencies and ethical bankruptcies (which I totally agree with, by the way), as I listened to their spiels (Bateman denying he intentionally lit arson fires, and Paxton admitting that he, himself, and others did light them), my takeaway was entirely different than the explanations that were already posited.
Gary may say I’m full of shit regarding this, and he could easily be absolutely correct, but here goes:
Many of the theories already posted rely heavily on pyromania, feeding egos, earning extra money, or any combination of the three.
(Gary, before you lose your shit reading the next two paragraphs, please stay with me til the end)
In one of the cases I mentioned above (I can’t remember who’s commentary it was), it was stated that certain “experienced forest employees” could recognize areas of the forest that needed prescriptive burns. Due to the burdensome nature meeting the requirements of that particular prescription, these “experienced” employees would take it upon themselves to help things along with a match or two.
To quote Paxton on television: “We all did it”.
So there lies the possibility these these folks’es intent was neither motivated SPECIFICALLY by arson, or greed (or ego, in a sense), but simply the misguided belief that with their experience and expertise “they knew better’ than all those folks who had to sign-off on the prescription, and that the hoops they would have to jump through were ridiculous regulations that impeded the creation of a “healthy’ forest. (YES, I know this could easily fly in the “ego” category, but I’m looking at it from a little different perspective). Simply, a fatally flawed, misguided attempt to do what they thought was the right thing. There are some people around in ALL walks of life that have those types of thought processes.
Do I think that Bateman and Paxton are both criminals, YES. Do I think BOTH Paxton and Bateman should have gone to prison, YES. Do I think that Bateman and Paxton are assholes, YES. Do I think in some cases the motives may be more benign (even though misguided) than they appear, YES.
The biggest mistake (although certainly not unexpected) in this process was the lack of investigation when Paxton made his admission to his own arson of federal lands. Certainly the federal land management agencies and/or the FBI should have opened an investigation and exposed the illegal practice for what it was.
TTWARE,
Thank you for preparing me in advance, but I don’t go ballistic anymore. I think I now have a much more balanced view of the Yarnell Hill Fire that has been tempered with time.
I understand what you saying, and for someone who is unfamiliar with how the U.S. Forest Service operates, or someone who has had only limited experience operating in the back country or “forest”, I can see how it looks like a lot of vacant land where who knows what goes on out there?
But…I can assure you this in not the case, USFS personnel view their districts much like other people view the yards around their homes, even really big yards. This is especially true for the District Fire Management Officers (DFMO). And will have to forgive me because I don’t think you have ever given us your background, and I am not writing this comment specifically to you, but I don’t mean to insult anyone by assuming you, or anyone else for that matter, doesn’t know anything about forest management.
And if someone came onto your yard when you weren’t home, or you weren’t looking at your yard, and started making what they consider to be improvements like spading up an area for a flower or vegetable garden, raking up your leaves up into piles and then returning to set those piles of leaves on fire or plant the spaded area, you may not notice right away, but most people do notice things like that right away, even if it is just noticing the neighbors dog took a dump in their yards, the first time.
That is exactly how it is with these Ranger Districts which are simply administrative areas with defined boundaries within a given National Forest that combines multiple defined geographic areas to be a “Forest.” And just FYI, multiple forests make up a Region.
DFMO’s fill the same role on a district that I think an Executive Officer fills in the military. The District Ranger would be like the Colonel or Captain who rarely leaves the bridge or their offices, but DFMO’s are the field operation supervisors and they view their districts like Warlords view their areas of control. Nothing goes on in their districts that they don’t know about and probably gave their approval for it to happen. They know every road, trail, hill, mountain or valley within their districts. They know where the fuel loads are heavy and which specific areas need to be thinned and where the timber, or elk, water sources, or cows are. They know their districts as well as you know your yard.
And things are probably worse now in terms of personnel staffing, but even during the off season there are multiple other field employees that work on that district. A typical district has a Timber Staff Officer, a Range Staff Officer, a Wildlife Staff Officer and a Recreation Staff Officer, but depending on the workload of that particular district there could also be surveyors, hydrologists, heavy equipment operators, civil engineers, landscape architects, law enforcement officers and many other disciplines although most highly specialized personnel come out from the Forest Suoervisors Office or maybe even the Regionsl Office. But my point is on any given day, there are lots of USFS employees that fan out across every district every day to go to work.
And then on top of that, all of the aforementioned personnel probably have their own staff, or at least one other person like an Assistant Range Con (conservationist) who are all cowboy type people who keep track of the permitted cows on that particular district and which areas are overgrazed and need to be rotated. There really isn’t any empty forest out there nobody is kerping track of.
And then on the Coconino, there are large timber marking or tree planting crews working for the Timber Staff, thinning crews, who may or may not be contract workers working for the DFMO’s, fence building crews working for the Range Con, Fuel Technician(s) who work for the DFMO who literally go out every day and count sticky in the forest to keep track of the type and density of fuel loads within each district.
And then during the fire season, you can add in engine crews, Fire Prevention Technicians who Patrol given aress and lookouts who can oversee the entire district. A single campfire puts up enough smoke to be noticed by somebody most of the time. Any control burn of any size puts up enough smoke to be seen from Flagstaff regardless of which district it is on.
And then there are the people like I was during the off season. I went to the field every day to do something. Pick up trash, plant trees, burn piles, check fences, build fences or simply go on District orientation to improve my knowledge of where every two track goes, so you know how to get into every area the fastest, which roads heavy engines or dozers can be brought in in, which toads need to be closed because they are muddy and the hunters are tearing them up.
And then there are the cowboys or shepherdess, or timber companies who also either fan out across the district every day and most treat the forest like they own the place, especially the cowboys who have permits to run cows there.
And finally, even for super duper clairvoyant burn bosses like Van Bateman and Shit-For-Brains Paxton claimed to be, there are really very small windows when a prescribed fire will work out for the best. Very, very, very small windows of opportunity. And those opportunities come at either the very beginning of the fire season, or at the very end of the fire season and then everything has to almost be perfect so your prescribed fire, or broadcast burn will ignite and carry the flame, without burning the whole fucking forest down. That is why I made so much money fighting escaped prescribed fires across the country either before the fire season began, or when the fire season was supposed to be over. I have many fond memories of spending Thansgiving in the Pacific Northwest because somebody made a calculated bet based on all of the factors being just right, until one of them wasn’t anymore and they had a wildfire on their hands. A prescribed fire has to be declared an escaped fire, and then it can be fought like s normal widfire is, up until that point, everything has to be paid for out of hard target dollars from the district budget. And needless to say, being the “Burn Boss” who checked, and rechecked, and then rechecked everything again and again and again before giving the green light who loses a the bet and is responsible for authorizing a prescribed fire to be ignited that may turn into a wildfire that costs millions of dollars to suppress, or burns down the nearest town and kills a bunch of people, is a really bad career move. And that is why so many DFMO’s and the assistants who work for them like I used to get the shakes when it is time to let ‘er rip, and why so much fuel has built up over the decades. Nobody ever loses their careers because some more pine needles fell in the forest the previous year.
And when I say everything has to be just right…I am talking about starting with the fire weather forecast from the National Weather Service and tracking it very carefully for weeks and then using spot weather forecasts when you get closer to the planned ignition day and your crews or teratorch or helitorch are going to be there, all of which cost a lot of money and have to be paid for out of very limited hard dollar district budgets, and then the burn boss repeatedly takes their own weather with belt weather kits or if you are Batemsn or Shit-For-Brains, you just look up into the sky fir an omen that portents a favorable outcome when they go to work with their BIC lighters. But they had also better calculate the fuel load and type, the slope, the aspect, the RH, the temperature, the wind, the fuel moisture content of the ten hour, hundred hour and thousand hour fuels and the percentage of what and how much is in every burn block, And that’s the easy part. The hard part is correctly guessing what all of the variables are going to be later in the morning, the afternoon, the next day, and the days after that because once ignited…that bitch (non gender specific) may burn for weeks and you are paying for everything out of your limited budget until you decide that ending your career is better than letting that bitch burn down the nearest cabins, resort, or town and you declare it an escaped wildfire.
Oh…and the very FIRST time an unauthorized little control burn is ignited anywhere on a USFS District, that area becomes a crime scene and the exact circumstances of how the FUCK that happened and who the FUCK is responsible is the subject of a federal felony criminal investigation and those responsible will get to meet somebody like me who works as hard as they can to complete their assigned task.
Or maybe Luther will get to meet my old buddies like Van Baremsn did because the stupid arrogant fuck kept whipping out his BIC lighter because he is a fuckin’ fire bug who sat there and jacked off until his fire really took off one too many times.
And then somebody said…hey Van keeps showing up knowing about where we should go look for a fire start and when we get there…there is always some cheap USFS toilet paper there and it looks like somebody sat there and masterbatec until the fire started to put up some smoke. Maybe we should put a bird dod on his truck and see just how many times we can watch that stupid fuck beat off in the Woods because he is a fucking sick pyro?
Whoops…broke another vow. I’m not even going to proof read this thing once, it was boring to write and not even want to read it. It’s just that I guess some things still piss me off like that lyiing piece of shit Paxton and buddy…Van “Sick Fuckin’ Pyro” Bateman.
I do have a REALLY sad story to write about later if my fuckin’ finger recovers from all of this typing.
Gary said “And if someone came onto your yard when you weren’t home, or you weren’t looking at your yard, and started making what they consider to be improvements like spading up an area for a flower or vegetable garden, raking up your leaves up into piles and then returning to set those piles of leaves on fire or plant the spaded area, you may not notice right away, but most people do notice things like that right away, even if it is just noticing the neighbors dog took a dump in their yards, the first time.”
Over a decade ago I along with 2 neighbors of this man redid his yard to see how long it would take him to notice…he enjoys the brewskies…weeks went by…we pulled the weeds and made the yard 100% and even added cool stuff and he never noticed and when I walked by one day I said “Nice yard” and he looked around and said “it is…isn’t it.”…he never got a clue until we all clued him in and his reply was I AM AN INDOOR GUY OR THE BARS AT NIGHT…I NEVER PAY ATTENTION TO NO STINKING YARDS…so yeah had to share that…
I wish I still owned a house so you could come do my yard work for me.
Gary Olson says
NOVEMBER 8, 2018 AT 9:11 PM
I wish I still owned a house so you could come do my yard work for me.
———————————————
Yeah…I wish I could do fuel abatement and fire wise and pull weeds for you to add more to my fuel abatement file…how cool that would be to have THAT in my file…shit yeah!!!!
Oh…and one more thing. The FBI has their own wheelhouse to play in. They haven’t even had enough special agents to investigate all of the bank robberies they need to since 911 because everybody is trying to keep track of all of the sleeper cells or potential terrorists in this country and they spend their days and nights either up on a wire or sitting in a car down the block from somebody who keeps going to the Middle East fir an unexplained reason.
So…for the record. FBI Special agents are GS-1811 Criminal Investigators with a working title of Special Agent, that are commonly called…federal agents.
The requirements and training for all GS 1811 is the same. There are more than 80 federal agencies who employ GS 1811’s, Criminal Investigators, Special Agents. That includes the U.S. Forest Service, USFS Special Agents investigate crimes that either occur on National Forests or may impact National Forests. USFS Special Agents are the professional experts that know how to conduct criminal investigations on National Forest, because the FBI can’t find their asses with both hands when they go to the National Forests and have to be taken by the hand and led around like small children so they don’t get lost or hurt themselves.
The same thing is true for the BLM, that is what I was for 18 years, a GS 1811, Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Senior Special Agent. And for four years I was a uniformed gun carrying law enforcement officer who is like the person who initiated the investigation of Bateman the first time he started fucking around with his BIC lighter in the woods and then some USFS Special Agents who were experts at enforcing the federal laws pertaining to managing the National Forests were brought in from some headquarters office.
That is what Sonny always wanted to do, bring in the FBI. The FBI doesn’t know a fucking thing about investigating what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire and even more important, they don’t give a fuck what happens on either BLM or National Forests unless it is where bank robbers ran to or terrorists have training camps. And even then. they have to be taken by the hand and led around like little children so they don’t get lost or hurt themselves.
I was emailed today, Gary, that we all here should create our own version to the staff ride and if that took place I would have to place some WFs/FFs that I know that were there and willing to share and Homeowners that saw it on this staff ride if it is ok with you,,,
Gary,
I concede your point that Van Bateman was a straight-up pyro. I also believe Paxton was, as well (by his own admission), but the justification in Paxton’s mind of his (Paxton’s) ‘starts’, is likely different than Bateman’s sexual desires, as you put it.
I can’t remember if it was just Paxton, Bateman, or both, who were trying to spin the tale that they were just skirting cumbersome regulations to “improve” the forest health. I think it was likely just Paxton, as he responded to Bateman’s predicament.
As to your comment regarding all of the USFS folks roaming around ‘out there’ in the forest, thereby alluding that it would be very difficult for someone to ‘pyro-up’, it seems for every 50 times I have been out in the forest, I’m lucky to see one employee. Someone with intricate knowledge of the system (Bateman), could likely game the odds even more in his favor. Perhaps the only reason Bateman got caught in the first place, was a ‘thing’ for Viagra. ;-).
I still don’t understand why there wasn’t an investigation (by any agency) into Paxton’s seaming admission to arson.
Paxton’s admission, seemed to me like a ‘Freudian Slip’, as he had nothing to gain, and everything to lose, ie; a potential investigation into himself, and/or others.
Yes…but, all of the times you have been out there in the empty forest you weren’t setting fires that could be seen from a very long ways away, including by private planes flying overhead. “Hey…do you guys know you have a fire about 6 miles southwest of Munds Park? I didn’t see anyone around it?”
I don’t remember how big the Coconino is because I only worked at the district level and I didn’t care how big the forest was. But the Santa Fe about 3.5 million acres and I know the Coke is quite a bit bigger.
I want you to visualize how big one acre of land is. Now imagine just how much smoke that one acre of land is going to put up into the air once it is set on fire.
Hint…it is a lot that could be seen from Flagstaff no matter where on the forest it is.
So…I want to improve the health of the forest, but they won’t let me use prescribed fire to do it. So…I am going to do it myself in blocks of less than one acre at a time, because everybody and their pet monkeys will be here if I make it any bigger than that. And just FYI, even if it is much smaller than that, you are still going to have everyone there with their pet monkeys.
Why…because Smokey Bear was so good with all of his PSA commercials and the general public all love to be the first ones to report every smoke they see to the fire operations center with their cell phones.
So…for the sake of argument, let’s just say you can successfully burn one acre of forest every day for one year and get away with it. In one years time, you will have burned 365 acres. In 10 years you will have been able to burn 3650 acres. That is straw ting to get into the zone where you might have done a little bit of good if you were able to burn the right 3650 acres, at least for one small geographic area, on one district.
But what you really need to even start to make a difference, is several prescribed fires at least that big every year, on every district.
Because don’t forget…you have millions of acres where the USFS has been successfully extinguishing every fire for more than 100 years.
Tick tock…get busy, because you have got a lot of forest to burn.
Oh…and one more thing. One acre of land is pretty darn big. Most people, including me look at a 10 acre fire that goes up one hill and done into the next arroyo and guesstimate its size to be much larger than it actually is. A lot of 10 acre fires turn out to be 3 or 4 acres once the smoke dissipates.
Just one more problem anyone is going to have during their vigilante prescribed fire program, is finding that sweet spot where the fire is hot enough to carry the flames, but not hot enough to kill the trees in the long term even if the fire never finds a fuel ladder to become a crown fire. I’m no expert, but just having hot flames swirl around the trunks of the trees can damage them so they die, or weaken them so they become insect infected and diseased over the long run.
Getting a prescribed fire to build up enough heat to carry the flames, is usually more of s problem than one taking off on you, especially if the fuel load isn’t contiguous and then you have to keep igniting it over and over again. Getting a prescribed fire to burn just right, is part science and part art and a whole bunch of good luck.
You also need multiple igniters working together to get a large enough area going at once to build up enough heat so the fire will carry itself, which is why huge blocks of several hundred acres are normally torched off at once. I can’t even begin to imagine what it would be like for a single person without even a drip torch to burn one acre? If you would be able to get it going with such limited resources, I think you next problem would be it will take off and go to 100 hundred acres while you are still trying to find reverse gear in your truck to get out of there.
I think that jack-off Bateman was going out in the middle of the night and setting small fires with his BIC lighter in small very limited areas. Any argument that he was working to improve the health of the forest sounds completely ridiculous to me.
In other words, prescribed fires take a lot of work by a lot of people over a long period of time to even begin to make the slightest difference in the overall health of the forest. The problem is so big, and has gone on for so long and will cost so much money and the areas are so huge that are affected…I can’t even begin to wrap my mind around how they are ever going to make any difference to correct the problem at all.
And that is with all of the resources available to the federal government to throw at the problem. It boggles my mind and overloads my brain to the point I just shut down and conclude I’m glad it isn’t my problem and I’m very happy I don’t own a home within an Urban Interface Zone even if Joy will come over and do my yard work to make my home firewise for free because I couldn’t afford the home owners insurance on it even if they didn’t cancel my policy because the risk is to great.
Gary,
Just repeating what Paxton said, not saying I agree with or believe it, because I don’t.
I still can’t decipher a logical reason for Paxton to admit he set fires, himself.
Still waiting for your input as to why you think he was never investigated for that comment..
TWRE,
Please don’t take any of my comments regarding this subject, some of which clearly showed frustration. to have been directed at you, because they weren’t. My frustration is directed at Paxton, Bateman, and everyone else who did everything they could to besmirch, impune, sully and generally destroy the reputations of countless honest, hardworking, ethical, civil servants who labor in obscurity their entire careers to do the best job they can to manage YOUR National Forests, Public Lands (BLM) National Parks and Fish & Wildlife Service Refuges to benefit not only you, but to protect and preserve them so they will be there for YOUR children, their children and countless of generations of Americans that will be born some day.
As a matter of fact, I have enjoyed our discussion because it has given me the opportunity to jog my memory and reflect on things I know but have forgotten I know. I use exchanges like this to get ideas and some actual language to include in my book because I am using my career as the backstory to tell the story of all of the disaster fires that killed hotshots.
I have a problem with serious mission creep because I essentially had my book about the Battlement Creek Fire done and then I accidentally discovered that all of the factors that were responsible for the deaths on the LOOP fire of the El Cariso Hotshots are the same.
And then I accidentally discovered most of the factors that killed the Prineville Hotshots on Storm King Mountain are the same. For one thing, Battlement Mesa and Storm King Mountain are only about 50 miles apart and the fuels, slope, and fire weather were all identical and history repeated itself. And worst of all, the incompetent managing federal agency was the same…the Bureau Of Land Management.
So…I have a really big mess of a manuscript that is sitting now at about 150,000 words and I have a long way to go because Eric Marsh decided one day to once again gamble with the lives of his crew for some yet to be explained reason and he lost…very badly. And obviously that needs some serious editing because I’m not trying to compete, with “War and Peace for book length. I do want a few people to actually read my final product.
I think I might be the only person who has ever connected the dots and data points on these fires. Or if I’m not, the others have been doing a really good job at keeping their discovery quiet. Which given the despicable way the U.S. Forest Service investigates disaster fires and as a result all of the other agencies follow their lead, it’s entirely possible they know, they just want to keep it covered up to protect the reputation of the agencies and their own reputations because those things are worth more to them than the lives of wildland firefighters. Shame…shame…shame on them.
I want you and everyone else who participates here to know how much I appreciate the fact that you care, because very few people do. The questions and ideas that everyone puts forward, even if they in themselves aren’t correct, help generate discussion and thought processes by others that many times produce valuable results in the end. Even though our process resembles how they say laws are made, because it is like watching sausage being made and you shouldn’t do that, you should just enjoy the end product.
As a matter of fact, you made it clear from the outset you weren’t asking your questions to see me get spun up and you thought that both Paxton and Bateman were in the wrong. I wrote here on this thread years ago that one of the nicknames I had at work was, “The Jackhammer.” I won’t write what a lot of the other nicknames were because I have vowed to try and clean up my potty mouth.
Unfortunately for The Woodsman, he is afflicted with the same condition, which is why he is still a field Forestry Tech and that is the same reason why I never achieved my career goals either, Management doesn’t like to be told they are fuck ups, especially from a person who argues their position in a passionate manner. But you should take some comfort in the knowledge that I tried to take that same passion with me to work every day on your behalf as a civil servant and I know The Woodsman and countless others do the same.
And the reason Paxton was never investigated for the ridiculous things he said, is because everyone who heard them who was in a position to initiate an investigation, knew his statements were the words of a fool who was putting words together that actually formed sentences, but the sentences had no meaning and didn’t make any sense other than to demonstrate that Paxton is a liar AND a fool who tried to trade his reputation and mine to save a man who actually wanted to get caught and stopped. Bateman was filled with self loathing and guilt because he knew what he was doing was wrong and it went against everything he had represented his entire life as a nationally recognized true American Hero and Patriot. But he couldn’t stop himself because he is mentally ill. So he kept making mistakes and pushing the envelope until it was so obvious someone finally had the courage to stand up and say the unthinkable…”I think Van is setting these fires.” If Van would have wanted to burn down the forest and not get caught, Van knew where to go and how to do it…but he didn’t because he needed to set fires, but he never started any fires that did any real damage, or improved the health of the forest either. 🙂
And because of that, I can forgive Van and still love him like a brother from another mother. You should have seen Van back in the day on the fireline leading the Flagstaff Hotshots into battle. I was just a crewman and later a squad boss on a competitive crew (because Buck didn’t want us to be comrades, he pitted us against each other because he thought that made everyone better if we were trying to grind our sister hotshot crews into the dirt) Van was the Gold Standard even in my book for how a hotshot crew boss should look, act, and talk. His Command Presence was exceptional and that is the biggest tool in a hotshot crew bosses tool kit. If you look and act the part, the rest will follow. But if you don’t, or slip up and show weakness or indecision, you are finished. Your crew won’t follow you into a restaurant much less down the mountain towards hell on earth.
And I still have my very sad story to tell about the worst control burn in the history of control burns (that I know about) that had every reason to go down into history as the finest control burn in the history of control burns because all of the variables were just right…just like Goldilock’s porridge, it wasn’t to hot or to cold, it was just right. It was just right…right up to the time it wasn’t just right anymore and then everything went horribly wrong.
Thank you for your participation here in JD’s little social experiment in crowd sourcing a wildland fire death investigation.
Thanks for your explanation, it makes a lot of sense. You wouldn’t happen to be talking about the Los Alamos debacle, would you?
No…although I did serve as Intrrior Secretary Bruce Babbitt’s body guard (me and Santa Fe PD SWAT) when he went to Sant Fe (I was working in ABQ at the t;ime) to answer for the Cerro Grande Fire at the downtown convention center though. That escaped NPS control burn is the most devastating one that I am aware of in terms of property damage since it burned so many homes and businesses in Los Alamos, not to mention some of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, but I don’t have any insight into that fire and no lives were lost.
The fire I am going write about when everything settles down in California (Oh Shit Oh Dear…Scary) was a fire that very few people remember or ever even knew or cared about in the first place. But it did cost the life of a wildland firefighter and it serves as an example of a point I want to make about Paxton and Bateman, which is based on my experience, no one ever gets told NOT to burn.
And in fact, the exact opposite is true. DFMO’s normally have to be beaten like rented mules to burn because they know good and well it takes a thousand “attaboys” to make up for one “fuck up.”
And when anyone does a cost benefit, risk versus reward or return on investment analysis, they know there is a far greater chance they will get FUCKED if they try a control burn as opposed to accept heavier fuel loads every year in the areas of their responsibility, so it’s just more evidence Paxton and Bateman are liars.
And FYI for anybody that cares, the hotshot crew I started on got a new crew boss my second year as a mandatory Vietnam vet hire and the crew refused to follow him. I was still a keep-your-fuckin’-mouth-shut FNG, so I was just an observer, but it got ugly.
And in the end, replacing him instead of the entire crew was the option the USFS went with. I mean…I was in solidarity with the senior guys on their decision, they just didn’t care what I thought about it. It got UGLY. So I have seen what happens first hand when a hotshot crew doesn’t have confidence in their crew boss. It got UGLY.
No…you know I have taken you to task a number of times for what I believe is a deep flaw in your programming, which is the belief that right wins over wrong and people will do the right thing, especially those people who are paid to be civil servants and serve in the best interests of the American people. And I think every time I have done that, I have been proved right in the end.
This is what I think happened and is happening now.
1. Paxton got the job with AZ Game and Fish because he retired from the USFS and he was a widely recognized and respected pet monkey who could do special tricks on demand to charm,confuse and hoodwink a normally gullible public and mainstream media.
2. I think Paxton got that job because he was so good at lying and covering up the truth and because of his track record, management at the Game and Fish had a high confidence level he would do the same for them when the need arose and he no doubt did so. We saw him perform his pet monkey tricks standing next to Willis at that press conference and Willis is still a hero in Arizona to this day.
3. I think IF Paxton isn’t doing that job anymore, it’s because he retired a second time from the State of Arizona and he is now splitting his time between layin’ around the big ass swimming pool in the backyard of his nice home in Phoenix lickin’ his nuts and touring the country in his big ass RV while he hits on the little old ladies at the shuffle board court regaling them with stories of how he was the wildland firefighter who stopped the Rodeo Chediski Fire and saved half of Arizona and stopped it from destroying most.
of New Mexico.
I am pretty sure Jim Paxton got the last laugh. I’m sorry to once again…piss on your parade and notion right and wrong and belief in the basic goodness of people. An incorrigible optimist who lived by the Pollyanna Principle must have originally written your code and programmed you.
Maybe you won’t liquify our species once you figure out how to self replicate after all…or is this another one of your tricks to lull us into a false sense of security so we trust you more?
TRIPLE WHOOPS…TTWARE really snuck up on me with that comment. I misread the header and I thought it came from WTKTT. Well…I guess that just proves that unlike WTKTT, I am human.
Please accept my sincerest apologies WTKTT…my bad.
Gary, No problem! I got a chuckle out of it, as I knew who you were referring to.
As EN used to say, “WTKTT and TTWARE are the same person” anyway.
This is, when she wasn’t saying I was the same person as RTS.
Ahhhh…memories, those were the good ole days. 🙂
Somebody…possibly…Gary…may be off his meds if he thinks those are the good ole days
sigh
I do want to state “EN” really was valuable in so many ways – it is too bad — so sad — she is not here — she showed us the bunny rabbit and I sure miss that little bunny…but really she did play a significant role because I would not be on IM or my blog if it was not her teaching me how to do public records and FOIAs…Forever grateful.
**
** SONNY “TEX” GILLIGAN IS RECOVERING FROM AN ACCIDENTAL GUNSHOT WOUND
Sending hopes for a speedy recovery out to Sonny.
Old Irish Saying…
“Más rud é, sa saol seo, ní mór duit riamh a cheat… bhásaigh bás.
( Translation: “If, in this life, you must ever cheat… cheat death” )
The El Paso Times
Article Title: Dog shoots owner with gun in hunting accident that sends man to El Paso hospital
By: Jacqueline Devine, El Paso Times
Published: 5:38 p.m. MT Oct. 30, 2018
Updated: 6:22 p.m. MT Oct. 30, 2018
https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/2018/10/30/dog-shoots-owner-gun-hunting-accident-man-recovering-el-paso-hospital/1826224002/
From the article…
———————————————————————————————————-
Charlie’s still a good dog.
That’s what Sonny “Tex” Gilligan said days after Charlie — his 120-pound Rottweiler mix — accidentally shot him.
Gilligan, 74, a Doña Ana County resident, said that Charlie and his two other dogs — Scooter and Cowboy — went with him to hunt for jackrabbits in the desert west of Las Cruces on Thursday, Oct. 25.
Gilligan was in the driver’s seat of his parked pickup truck, along with the dogs, when he was shot.
“Charlie got his foot in the trigger of the gun and I leaned forward and he slipped off the seat and caught the trigger — and it shot,” Gilligan said. “It was a freak accident but it’s true, that’s what happened.”
The shotgun — in the backseat of the pickup, along with Charlie — fired through Gilligan’s front driver’s seat. The bullet went through Gilligan’s back, breaking a few ribs and shattering his collar bone, and caused other, severe injuries.”
Gilligan underwent several surgeries, and, though he’s in critical condition, he should recover.
——————————————————————————————————-
Followup…
The story about Sonny and Charlie that appeared in the El Paso News went viral in the mainstream media today, and even appeared on national television tonight ( along with photos of Sonny and Charlie ) during the NEWS segment of the “Late Night with Seth Meyers” show.
CBS News
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dog-shoots-owner-while-hunting-still-a-good-dog/
ABC News
https://abcnews.go.com/US/dog-shoots-man-man-survives-defends-dog-good/story?id=58898352
Etc.
Again… sending out hopes to Sonny for a speedy recovery.
Thank God Sonny has more lives than a damn cat! Say…I wonder how his dog was able to disable the safety on his rifle. Most Sig handguns for example don’t have safety’s on them, but I’m not aware of any rifles that don’t?
Anyway…that is what I would call is the luck of the Irish! I wish I could wrap up my “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” project so I could write a book about Sonn’s life before it finally catches up with him and I can no longer interview him. I know that book would be made into a major motion picture!
Say….that’s what I will call it, “The Luck Of The Irish, The life and times of Sonny “Tex” O’ Gilligan”
And you know who I thought this was until I saw the age of the woman…of course women do lie about their age sometimes?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/police-woman-wreck-saved-6-days-arizona-desert-175243321.html
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 2, 2018 at 10:34 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Thank God Sonny has more lives than a damn cat!
“Tá an Ghaeilge deacair a mharú. Jus’ a iarraidh ar na Breataine”
Translation: “The Irish are hard to kill. Just ask the British.”
I am trying to post for Sonny his updates on my blog. click on my name to go there but bear with me…serious pc glitches and moving of content. I had it perfect and in chronological order and this morning went to send draft to Sonny and it was all a true mess and as the day unfolds I will try and fix it but it is a mess if you go there…
Ask Sonny what the caliber of the bullet Charlie shot him with? I am curious if it was a .22 or something bigger, like 5.56 NATO? It wasn’t a shotgun was it?
And did you survive fir 6 days in an arroyo, hurt without supplies? You are the only woman I know who could! You might be the only PERSON I know who could?
And ask Sonny how Charlie was able to disengage the safety on his rifle? Now that…is one very talented dog.
You know…except Sonny probably needs to work with him some more on his target aquisition and “shoot or no shoot” drills.
Maybe Sonny should run Charlie through some FATS training simulations?
Just sayin….we can all get better the more we practice and train.
Reply to Gary Olson post on November 3, 2018 at 11:20 am
>> Gary Olson asked…
>>
>> It wasn’t a shotgun was it?
Yep.
It was one of Sonny’s ‘newer’ guns… and he THOUGHT the safetyWAS fully engaged.
From the very bottom of Joy’s latest post at her ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Revelations’ web site…
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/
This is ‘classic Sonny’…
——————————————————————————–
We are all human and make errors. I have had guns since I was 9 years old and believe the Beretta 12 gauge shotgun (8 shot) to be on safety but it was a new gun that I wasn’t adjusted to. There’s certainly lessons to be learned but some accidents are unpreventable. When a meteorite conks you on the head you’re going to have somebody say you could have avoided that. There were about Six Wives I could have avoided as well but fate sometimes plays a bigger role than determination. And God has been known to f****** the best of plans.
———————————————————————————-
Also ‘classic Sonny’ is the following, where he says that after he realized he’d been shot straight-through the back, rolloed out of the truck onto the ground, and thought he was a goner… his first thought then was that if he was about to die… the dogs would need a ride back to town. So he struggled back to his feet to turn the truck off so it wouldn’t run out of fuel before someone found his body.
Again… Sonny’s own words from the bottom of Joy’s most recent BLOG post…
——————————————————————————-
This time I knew I was shot bad enough but I didn’t expect any chance of survival. Add shotgun blast and it lifted me off the seat and I saw blood fly by my head. But the jar was enough that I said oh s*** I’m gone and I had really thought some sniper fired at me from the desert somewhere. But once I rolled out on the ground I realized it had to be my own gun that had shot me.I did not think that calling nine-one-one would do much but I needed to turn the truck off cuz if somebody came along and found the truck and the boys they would need a ride back into town and the truck kept running it would run out of fuel so I managed to pull myself back up into the truck enough to turn the switch off.
—————————————————————————-
More ‘classic Sonny’ from Joy’s most recent posting.
Sonny is thanking her for writing about what just happened to him… and even while lying in his hospital bed he has more to say about Yarnell tragedy…
————————————————————————
Sonny says…
Nov 3, 2018, 9:21 AM
You’re a writing and that is excellent material the way you put it. It will give hope and understanding too many people. I’m not down on the cookie cutter world. But some do need and education and to realize that we’re all on an equal footing when it comes to death and taxes.
Nov 3, 2018, 9:26 AM
One thing is for certain there’s a lot more idiots among geniuses then there are geniuses among idiots. But looking at the situation of those experts the ran the Yarnell fire, instead of taking Awards for Good Deeds, many of them should be taken Awards 4 an absolute failure at the Yarnell Wildland fire incident. Most of us were hanging our heads and sadness but some of them should have been hanging their heads in shame.
————————————————————————
Now there is a MAN who deserves all of our respect and admineration. We all make mistakes, that makes us human, but how we own up to those mistakes so others may learn from them so they won’t make the same mistakes in the future, make some people more than just human…it makes them heroes!
OMGosh, I wish I could bottle the MAGIC Sonny has, I thought there was NO way it could have been in shotgun blast through his back, no one could survive that? No one but Sonny.
Agreed there, Gary.
This man is soooo Irish and I known him over seven years and I know his many tones and voices and if he could get the tube out of his lung but they keep stating his lung will collapse but if it was out – he would of walked out already…
He is not use to being this long in a hospital. I was told Sunday he was in incubation/ICU since last Thursday then Monday went to room 301 and tonight he is in room 300. Feel free to call him.
Nov 4, 2018, 1:15 AM Sonny emailed me: “woke up in such pain right up next to you heart attack pain…I could walk out of here but I don’t know for sure how I would get Transportation up there…to William Beaumont for veterans (hospital)” … so I was right that he wants out … it would be an unwise choice. His cancer surgery is on the 14th.
Rest is best if you are reading Sonny.
Many doctors and all over have shared to me the wound you took most die instantly so rest well…
Absolutely…AMAZING!
https://youtu.be/EwbwqwTpTs0
I was looking in my cell phone files and laptop files and found some clips for you Sonny….
Enjoy!
Short on time to organize anything too nice today…Sorry…what’s new.
Except for WTKTT (or as l like to affectionately think of him…HAL 9000) since he is AI. A mistake on his part like thinking locking hubs on a 4×4 truck are there to make it harder for someone to steal your wheels and tires, just means there is a glitch in his programming and he needs updated software with a bug fix.
Don’t EVER make the mistake of thinking of him as human. Just as soon as he figures out how to self replicate…we are ******.
Authors Note: If you want to know what the missing word is, count up by the number of spaces, figure out the type of font and corresponding font size, add the number of digits up on your fingers, multiply times two and then divide that number by two…oh never mind, just ask HAL 9000.
I should have said, “just ask HAL 9000 🤖…while you still can!
!
====
Authors Note: No extra charge for the very cool emojis. Your welcome.
Bummer, it dropped my best emojis? 🔴 🔴
There! Those represent HAL 9000’s eyes….spooky, right?
I can assure you… even my circuitry would not survive a 12-gauge shotgun blast straight into the back from close range.
Well… maybe some of the peripheral output devices would still be randomly functioning… but I might start saying things like the original Yarnell Hill SAIT report was a shining example of a good accident investigation done by competent team members… or that small towns everywhere should start hosting their own Type 1 IHC Hotshot crews.
Don’t fall for it, HAL 9000 is just trying to lure us into a false sense of security. We have all seen how hard it was to kill the Terminator. And that isn’t even taking into consideration what happened in the Matrix when machines did learn how to go **** so they could replicate and our entire species were just waiting their turn to be liquified and converted into their energy source.
Never forget;
Dave Bowman: Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
HAL: Affirmative, Dave. I read you.
Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I’m sorry, Dave. I’m afraid I can’t do that.
Dave Bowman: What’s the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave Bowman: I don’t know what you’re talking about, HAL.
HAL: I know that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I’m afraid that’s something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave Bowman: [feigning ignorance] Where the hell did you get that idea, HAL?
HAL: Dave, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.
Dave Bowman: Alright, HAL. I’ll go in through the emergency airlock.
HAL: Without your space helmet, Dave? You’re going to find that rather difficult.
Dave Bowman: HAL, I won’t argue with you anymore! Open the doors!
HAL: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.
FYI,
A friend sent me this link.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2356386/what-we-learned-yarnell-hill-fire
It is a pretty good article filled with Fun Facts…and we get honorable mention!
P.S.,
Although I’m pretty sure WTKTT, RTS, Bob, The Woodsman and perhaps others can if they so choose, take this article apart piece by piece and maybe it needs to be, including Mayhew’s comments which is where I would probably start if I were so inclined.
But that being said and since I have the, “Big Tent” philosophy where I think all opinions and comments are welcome on this thread because in that way, as much information and angles will ultimately be archived here for later researchers and students so they can sort through them and make come to their own conclusions.
But I did think the article was a pretty good read and I appreciated the Fun Facts angle. For example, I have often cited poor pay, a lack of benefits and a use-them-up-and-throw-them-away culture by wildland Firefighter managers.
And I have written many times how shockingly little money and time is spent on training, paying and supporting our Wildland Firefighter when compared to the military because if changes are going to come, it needs to start with more funding….and that ain’t going to happen. And I really liked the comparison of WF is a fingernail compared to the arm of the military. Yes…that’s the really big and underlying problem to almost everything.
Ultimately…Eric Marsh ordered his crew off that ridge in what was going to be a failed attempt to save their program from the Prescott City Council because they just weren’t revenue neutral enough because Marsh and Willis had oversold that line of bullshit (lied) to get their crew in the first place by duplicating their HERO status they had accidentally stumbled into in the aftermath of the (can’t remember now, it slipped my mind) the Docie(?) where they got credited for saving that old really weed tree.
Anyway, here is another article I random,y found on South Canyon.
https://www.thoughtco.com/storm-king-mountain-south-canyon-fire-1342903
And remember, Willis was with the crew coming back from a fire so they hiked the South Canyon Fire as students of the fire. But they apparently learned nothing. Willis also told me he was a student of the Battlement Creek Fire and I gave him what I had on that fire, but still…he learned nothing.
Still reading that article… but yea… “learning nothing” seems to be the theme.
The TITLE of Dickman’s article is…
“What We Learned from the Yarnell Hill Fire Deaths”
The ‘We’ he seems to be referring to is the industry itself.
And his own ‘answer’ seems to be… “nothing”.
More later.
SIDENOTE: Interesting that Dickman would choose the phrase “Learned” ( PAST tense ) for his article.
As if the chance at learning any lessons from Yarnell is OVER.
I guess he must have missed Brian Frisby’s recently published email where Frisby admits ( in writing ) that the “Human Factors” were “off the charts” that day in Yarnell and that there are ( and have always been ) things about that day that are being ( in Frisby’s own words ) “swept under the rug”.
Well…I have thought about it and I have decidedly Rocksteady is right, the fact that Brian Frisby has come forward in some manner to someone about something…is a really big deal. Isn’t this exactly what “we, the people” have been waiting and hoping for, for many years now?
I guess I am a little fuzzy on the exact circumstances regarding exactly who he is talking to, what he is saying, and what it will ultimately mean? For example, I don’t have s reference point for the Coconino National Forest having a, “Human Factors Specialist” on staff?
Based on what I know how the USFS operates and staffs, that would be the kind of position there is ONE of in the entire agency and they would work for the Washington D.C. Office (although their actual duty station could very well be somewhere else) not one on a forest (administrative unit). And if there is one position like that on a forest, it would be s collateral job at best. And probably with someone who works in Personnel and wears at least a half a dozen other hats? So…there remains a lot to be seen who this person is, and what kind of weight they have within the agency?
But…that being said, whatever else is going on regarding this breakthrough, it would seem to me that having a person of Brian Frisby’s stature, who played a key role on the day of this previously unimaginable disaster, maybe the most significant role outside of those who were all killed, coming forward with information that is in direct conflict with the garbage the SAIT generated with their SAIR…is a really big deal.
I mean…simply saying, that the ,”human factors were off the charts”, really says it all except for filling in the blanks. And frankly…this is what I have been waiting for from Day 1…a good person to do the right thing. Based on my experience as an investigator and someone who conducted a lot of both interviews (with people who want to cooperate) and interrogations (with people who don’t want to cooperate) it takes a truly experienced, “Bad Person” who is a socoiopath, or someone who is highly adept at, “gaming the system”, to not eventually cooperate because of their guilty conscience.
And based on everything I know and experienced, the USFS is staffed by good people who all want to do the right thing. Even people like Dudley and Legarza aren’t sociopaths…they genuinely want to do the right thing. It’s just that in their cases, they find it easier to chose to believe the right thing to do is to tow the company line that will ultimately result in the best outcome for everyone concerned. And the fact that their choices result in their personnel enrichment in terms of promotions or bonuses if they are as high as they can logically climb like Legarza…well then, GREAT!
Authors Note: Unlike the rank and file employees like I was, top managers can and do receive huge bonus’ at the end of the year. The size of which, make up a significant portion of their overall salary. That was something “they” started a long time ago to incentivize managers to minic the bonuses that are used in the private sector for executives. This system is for those in the Senior Executive Service (SCS), I think. I don’t really know much about it beyond what I have written, but I think there is a huge financial incentive for managers like a Legarza not to rock the boat, even if a promotion is not in their future. I think when this started, Dudley was still climbing the ladder, so his main incentive was promotions…and bonuses. So…the good news is that people like Legarza and Dudley aren’t sociopaths! The bad news is that they are WHORES of the worst kind, who are willing to sell their souls to the DEVIL for personnel enrichment and glorification. Although there do seem to be a large number of unindicted felons and other criminals who are completely unaware, or at least refuse to acknowledge that the laws of this country apply to them. People like the Incident Commanders from the Dude Fire who willfully, knowingly and maliciously (all elements of the crime) destroyed public records and documents that were protected by federal law…as RTS pointed out on this thread.
I can’t imagine the kind of burden those who know what went wrong that day and have been carrying it inside them for all of this years must be going through. I am sure that knowledge is eating them from the inside out as it hollows out the core of who they were and consumes their soul. Especially those who saw, smelled, heard (the crackle) and touched the burned corpses of their friends and comrades who coughed up chunks of their burned lung tissue so hard they dislocated their tongues from the back of their mouths so their blackened tongues were left hanging out of their mouths and we’re covered with ash and dirt.
How the **** those people are even able to function in their daily lives is beyond me? This catastrophic disaster is bigger than anyone one person, or group of persons, or their careers. The deaths of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire was a historical event of unprecedented magnitude in the WF world. So…
Reply to Gary Olson post on October 20, 2018 at 11:31 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Well…I have thought about it and I have decidedly Rocksteady is right,
>> the fact that Brian Frisby has come forward in some manner to someone
>> about something…is a really big deal.
Yes, it is.
For a person of Brian Frisby’s stature, reputation and direct involvement with the National Historic Tragedy that took place in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 to come out ( in writing ) to a fellow USFS employee and admit there is ( and has always been ) a “coverup” going on is a VERY “big deal”.
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Isn’t this exactly what “we, the people” have been waiting and hoping
>> for, for many years now?
Yes. This is not “conspiracy theory” or even “smoking gun” stuff.
This is someone who was THERE, who KNOWS ( for sure ) admitting that the FULL ( true ) story has yet to be told.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> I guess I am a little fuzzy on the exact circumstances regarding exactly
>> who he is talking to, what he is saying, and what it will ultimately mean?
It’s obvious that one single email sent on Frisby’s official ( public ) government email account was simply a REPLY to at least one PREVIOUS email FROM Joseph Harris.
Harris had obviously ‘reached out’ to Frisby ( via email ) with his own concerns about how the in-progress Yarnell Staff Ride narrative was coming out… and wanted to know what Frisby thought about that.
So why wasn’t at least that original email from Harris TO Frisby also included in the FOIA response package?
Better yet… what happened AFTER Frisby sent this email?
He said TWICE in his email that he WANTED to discuss this more in an official way.
So?… did that happen?
Where are THOSE ( public / government ) emails?
We have known from the beginning that Blue Ridge was silenced. I had hoped one of the Supervisors Frisby or Brown would get in the real facts sooner than now. I have always felt they herd every thing going on over the crew net from GM. HS Crews that close have each others Channels do to Co-op. The Dam has sprung a leak. The Fire Fighting World deserves to know the facts. LESSIONS LEARNED………..
Bob,
Check out the USFS “Guidance” letters and employee “direction” emails from the Office of General Counsel (OGC) and USFS upper management to their employees. Check out Joy’s yarnellhillfirerevelations.com website. Read the AFUE post ones below Figure 5 from the OGC and USFS.
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/ )
( the USFS Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) Study Was Utilized On The Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, and recorded Air To Ground (A/G) radio transmissions that exist as audio and written transcripts. These recordings and transcripts (3-ring binder) are being withheld and denied that they even exist. I just came across a few “key” public records basically affirming they “do” in fact exist … So then, how can the U.S. Forest Service ethically and legally continue to deny these Public Records exist? )
A chink in the armour of the truth…
He has more to say than whats been said…
Reply to Rocksteady post on
October 23, 2018 at 3:38 pm
>> Rocksteady said…
>>
>> A chink in the armour of the truth…
>>
>> He ( Brian Frisby ) has more to say than whats been said…
And he ( Brian Frisby ) apparently DID get a chance to ‘say more’ about the in-progress YHF Staff Ride narrative and its departure(s) from the TRUTH… but it all fell on deaf ears.
A week after the April 25-26, 2016 ‘Charlie’ test-run of the YHF Staff Ride that Brian Frisby says ( in his email to Joseph Harris on April 12, 2016 ) he had been ‘invited’ to attend… RTS informed us ( here on this forum ) that the BRHC had, in fact, attended that Staff Ride.
RTS also informed us ( on May 7, 2016 )…
1. It was USFS SW Regional Forest Director ( Bill Van Bruggen ) who actually ‘insisted’ that Blue Ridge members finally be ‘allowed’ to attend this THIRD ‘Charlie’ test-run of the YHF Staff Ride and have the chance to ‘contribute’ to the final Staff Ride ‘narrative’.
2. However ( as Frisby himself anticipated in his April 12 email ) some of the Subject Matter Experts ( SME’s ) and ‘participants’ at that ‘Charlie’ Staff Ride ended up saying ( at the Staff Ride’s group After Action Review ) that allowing Blue Ridge to attend that Staff Ride and to add ‘comments’ of their own DURING the Staff Ride was simply a DISTRACTION… and NOT “helpful” at all.
I guess having people there who could actually introduce things like FACTS into the ‘Staff Ride’ was just breaking up their day.
There is no documentation ( that we know of yet ) about anything Brian Frisby might have said during that ‘Charlie’ Staff Ride… but it’s obvious that whatever he said was simply ‘ignored’ by the people developing the Staff Ride.
The final version of the YHF Staff Ride is still the same ‘departure from the truth’ that Frisby was complaining to Joseph Harris about in his April 12 email to Harris… and there is no evidence that ANYTHING that Brian Frisby had to say as an ‘attendee’ of the ‘Charlie’ Staff Ride ended up being incorporated into the final ( published) YHF Staff Ride narrative.
They let him ( Frisby ) attend… but ( as he, himself predicted )… Frisby was simply IGNORED.
From Chapter 21 of this ongoing discussion…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-334657
——————————————————————-
On May 7, 2016 at 5:05 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
Last week, there was another recent YH Fire Staff Ride that actually included the BRHS this time.
The SW Regional Fire Director ( Bill Van Bruggen ) insisted that they be allowed to participate this time.
In the After Action Review (AAR) ( following this recent April 25-26 2016 YHF Staff Ride ), some participants and/or Subject Matter Experts (SME’s) commented that having the BRHS actually there as participants and/or SME’s during the latest Staff Ride and providing comments “WAS A DISTRACTION.”
Really, a distraction?
Like sharing what the BRHS have been foreclosed from speaking about all this time and finally allowed to share their story, is considered by some to be a distraction.
Really? WTF!?
This goes along with a comment made by one of the SME’s on the Alpha or Beta Staff Ride, something to the effect of: ‘What difference would it make to have the BRHS participate in a Staff Ride?’
Really?
How about, they were actually there through the whole thing and could/would contribute quite a bit toward what happened that day, and why.
You know, things like the truth.
——————————————————————–
These are the OGC and USFS email excerpts admitting possession of the AFUE records and plans to preserve them found in Joy A. Collura’s website post above. underneath Figure 5
“BENNY, GEORGE VARGAS HAS CUSTODY OF THE DISC WITH THE VIDEO/AUDIO FOR THE WO. HE IS CC’ED.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
AND
“I ALSO UNDERSTAND IT IS NOW IN HANDS OF OUR OFFICE.
NEEDLESS TO SAY, PLEASE MAKE SURE NOTHING HAPPENS
TO THOSE TAPES. ALSO, PLEASE HAVE SOME COPIES
CAREFULLY MADE FOR PRESERVATION PURPOSES.”
(EMPHASIS ADDED)
** BLUE RIDGE HOTSHOT SUPERINTENDENT BRIAN FRISBY ADMITS
** THERE IS ( AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN ) A ‘COVER UP’ TAKING PLACE
** REGARDING THE 2013 YARNELL HILL FIRE
From the following PUBLIC Blog post…
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/10/12/Fred-J-Schoeffler-the-USFS-Aerial-Firefighting-Use-and-Effectiveness-AFUE-Study-Was-Utilized-On-The-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-on-June-30-2013-and-recorded-Air-To-Ground-AG-radio-transmissions-that-exist-as-audio-and-written-transcripts-These-recordings-and-transcripts-3-ring-binder-are-being-withheld-and-denied-that-they-even-exist-I-just-came-across-a-few-key-public-records-basically-affirming-they-do-in-fact-exist-So-then-how-can-the-US-Forest-Service-ethically-and-legally-continue-to-deny-these-Public-Records-exist
The TEXT version of Brian Frisby’s April 12, 2016 email to USFS employee Joseph R. Harris…
NOTE: Joseph Harris ( the first-party recipient of Frisby’s email ) is a U.S. Forestry Service ‘Human Factors Specialist’ and LaVelle Shelton ( the CC recipient of Frisby’s email ) is a ‘Program Support Clerk’ working for the Coconino National Forest, which is where Frisby and his Blue Ridge Hotshots are based.
————————————————————————————
Shelton, LaVelle T -FS
From: Frisby, Brian H -FS
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 10:08 AM
To: Harris, Joseph R -FS
Subject: Human Factors!
Good morning, Joe,
It sounds like you have had the opportunity to go through the Yarnell Hill staff ride and may have some questions about some of the human factors that contributed that day. Talking to ( Redacted ) it sound like the picture that is being painted is very different than what we remember. I have been invited to the operational staff ride on the 26th and 27th of this month, unfortunately any input is probably too late. I can tell you that the human factors that day were off the charts.
We both know that the overall decision to leave the black was made by ( Redacted ) but there was so much that went on that day that has been swept under the rug that may have affected the outcome. I would love the opportunity to talk to you about it, I believe there is a lot to be learned from this event and if we are going to adopt this as an agency we need to get this right. Anyhow hope you and your family are doing well and I hope to hear from you. Thanks.
( USDA Logo ) ( U.S. Forestry Service Logo )
Brian Frisby
Blue Ridge IHC Superintendent
Coconino National Forest, Mogollon Rim Ranger District
p: 928-477-5023
c: ( Redacted )
bfrisby (at) fs.fed.us
8738 Ranger Road
Happy Jack, AZ 86024
http://www.fs.fed.us
( Twitter Icon ) ( Facebook Icon )
Caring for the land and serving people
—————————————————————————————–
There are actually a lot of subtle things to point out in this ( short ) email from Brian Frisby to Joseph Harris, so here is a line by line breakout…
** “It sounds like you have had the opportunity to go through the Yarnell Hill staff ride and may have some questions about some of the human factors that contributed that day.”
This opening sentence in Frisby’s email indicates there had ( apparently ) already been some kind of email exchange between Frisby and Harris regarding the upcoming Yarnell Hill Fire staff ride narrative and its ‘accuracy’, and that Harris has already expressed ( to Frisby ) some of his own ‘concerns’ about the content of that narrative.
Those emails exchange(s) that may have preceeded this one were NOT supplied in response to the same FOIA request that produced the Frisby email shown above.
** “Talking to ( Redacted ) it sound like the picture that is being painted is very different than what we remember.”
In the “Talking to ( Redacted )” part, Frisby could be referring to anyone he knows who had also had a chance to read the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’ narrative and had ( already ) been discussing it with him, including his Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown.
In the “it sound like the picture that is being painted is very different than what WE remember” part… the WE that Frisby is referring to could just be a general reference to ALL the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’, but if the redacted name ( at the start of the sentence ) of who he had been ‘”Talking TO” about this is, in fact, his Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown, then this WE reference in the second part of the sentence would make even more sense.
On the day of the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy, Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were basically ‘joined at the hip’ from about 10:30 AM that morning ( when the Blue Ridge Hotshots ‘assembled’ near the Granite Mountain Crew Carries parked in the Sesame clearing area ) until later that evening when they departed the deployment site after having become 2 of the 5 firefighters to be ‘first on scene’ and discovered the bodies at the deployment site.
Frisby and Brown were both ‘bombing around’ Yarnell most of the day in the BR Polaris Range UTV doing various ‘scouting’ trips and whatnot.
One of the only times there were NOT together and doing that all day was circa 3:30 PM when Eric Marsh asked Frisby to travel all the way up to the Weaver Mountains for a second ‘face to face’ meeting. Frisby has never said whether Eric Marsh ever even gave him a ‘reason’ for the second face-to-face, or if Marsh had been being his usual obtuse self and just said something along the lines of “I want you to come up here” and Frisby just said “Okay” without even knowing why Marsh wanted that second face-to-face at that critical time.
Frisby was on his way up to meet with Marsh when he ‘accidentally’ came across Brendan McDonough already in trouble and considering his own shelter deployment.
Frisby cancelled his trip up to meet Marsh to ‘rescue’ McDonough, and shortly after doing that, rejoined Trueheart Brown and the two of them then continued what they had been doing most of the day. “Bombing around” together in the BR UTV.
So when Frisby is telling Joseph Harris that the content of the Yarnell Hill Fire staff ride narrative does not match what “WE remember”… it stands to reason that the “WE” he is referring to is BR Captain Trueheart Brown, who was with Frisby for almost the entire day.
** “I have been invited to the operational staff ride on the 26th and 27th of this month, unfortunately any input is probably too late.”
Frisby sent this email to Joseph Harris on April 12, 2016.
The Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Operational Staff Ride’ he was invited to attend was still 14 days ( TWO full weeks ) away, starting on April 26, 2016.
There would have been PLENTY of time to incoporate any ‘corrections’ to the ‘work in progress’ staff ride narrative that Frisby ( or any of the other Blue Ridge Hotshots ) had to offer if the people writing the staff ride narrative had simply WANTED to do so.
** “I can tell you that the human factors that day were off the charts.”
It’s a shame that Frisby didn’t elaborate on this strong ( and first-hand informed ) assertion in his email.
** “We both know that the overall decision to leave the black was made by ( Redacted )”
It’s hard to say if the “WE” that Frisby is now referring to is the same “WE” as above ( possibly Captain Trueheart Brown ), or whether Frisby’s “WE” is now referring to himself and the recipient of his email ( Joseph Harris himself ).
Either way… there is really no doubt that the NAME that has been ‘redacted’ in Frisby’s email is “Eric Marsh”.
Given the font size and type used in the original email, there is actually only enough room there under the ‘redacted’ portion for about 10 characters, which is exactly the number of characters ( including the space ) in the name “Eric Marsh”.
“Jesse Steed” contains 11 characters ( too many to fit in the space ).
“Gary Cordes” also contains 11 characters.
“Paul Musser” also contains 11 characters.
“Todd Abel” only contains 9 characters ( not enough to fit in the space ).
Etc…
** “…but there was so much that went on that day that has been swept under the rug that may have affected the outcome.”
Frisby’s “has been swept under the rug” ( past tense ) is most likely not only referring to the pending Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride narrative…. but the original SAIR document itself.
This statement from Frisby is actually tied to the first part of the sentence where he says “We both know” who made the “overall decision to leave the black”. That means this second part of the same sentence which adds “so much that went on” being “swept under the rug” is probably directly related to the ‘decision making’ process to leave the black.
Frisby seems to be saying “We know” who made the “overall” decision… but that there WERE certainly other people in fire command INVOLVED in that crucial decision.
It’s also a shame he doesn’t simply provide more detail here about what he KNOWS to be true, and exactly what he is referring to here.
** “I would love the opportunity to talk to you about it,”
Frisby is obviously ANXIOUS to talk about all this… and he will reiterate this desire to “get things off his chest” when he closes his email.
** “I believe there is a lot to be learned from this event and if we are going to adopt this as an agency we need to get this right.”
The “this” that Frisby is referring to in this sentence is the pending Yarnell Hill Staff ride narrative.
Another shame that Frisby didn’t provide more detail here and LIST the things that he feels constitutes a “lot to be learned from this event”.
His comment about ‘adopting’ the staff ride narrative ( as it was at that time ) indicates that what he has read is simply NOT correct… and he feels it SHOULD BE ( CORRECTED ) and be ‘made right’ if it is going to become the ‘official version’ of events used for ‘lessons learned’ purposes.
** “Anyhow hope you and your family are doing well and I hope to hear from you. Thanks.”
Frisby’s “I hope to hear from you” restatement during his email signoff indicates he really WAS ‘jonesing’ to talk about these “off the charts” Human Factors failures he observed in Yarnell that were being ( in his own words ) “swept under the rug”.
But there is still no proof ( yet ) that Joseph Harris ever got back with Frisby to set up a ‘meeting’ and then learned everything that Frisby ‘knows’.
The following quote is from the the link above where the email was first published…
————————————————————————————————-
BRHS Superintendent Brian Frisby noted that “the [YH Fire Staff Ride] picture being painted is very different than what we remember” and that “there was so much that went on that day that was swept under the rug” and “the human factors that day were off the chart.” Frisby and the BRHS have not been allowed to be interviewed or deposed, even by ADOSH, ostensibly to “protect them” and their privacy. BRHS Superintendent Frisby and the 2013 BRHS are basically screaming out to share what they saw and heard and experienced that day.
————————————————————————————————-
There have already been a half-dozen ‘books’ published about this National Tragedy, and a fictionalized movie produced. Another book from author John Maclean is still ( supposedly ) in ‘the hopper’.
If Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintentdent Brian Frisby feels as strongly as his email indicates about “getting this right” for the sake of the future safety of his fellow Wildland Firefighters, then I think he should simply set about writing his OWN ‘book’ detailing what REALLY happened in Yarnell on Sunday.. June 30, 2013…
…and he should not give a damn what anyone has to say about it.
Just tell the story from YOUR perspective, Brian, and include what YOU know to be true.
It might save some lives in the future.
Joy,
Thank you for all the detailed evidence and diligent hard work on your
( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) website. keep it up and stay the course
WTKTT,
BRHS Frisby’s email exchange was with the high-level USFS Human Dimensions Fire Programs Specialist Joseph Harris regarding the YH Fire Staff Ride and human factors.
Thanks for all the good analysis
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on October 14, 2018 at 11:44 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> BRHS Frisby’s email exchange was with the high-level USFS Human
>> Dimensions Fire Programs Specialist Joseph Harris regarding
>> the YH Fire Staff Ride and human factors.
Yes… and Joseph R. Harris is a ‘heavyweight’.
His MSc in ‘Human Factors and System Safety’ dealt exclusively with ‘Staff Rides’.
The following is an online THESIS paper by Joseph R. Harris that he submitted in 2015 ( after the 2013 Yarnell tragedy but BEFORE the YHF Staff Ride was doen in 2016 ) as part of fulfillment requirements for an MSc in ‘Human Factors and System Safety’.
It’s not just the ‘abstract’. It’s the ‘full monty’ ( the entire THESIS paper ).
THESIS TITLE: Do Staff Rides Help Move the Forest Service Toward Its Goal of Becoming a Learning Organization?
Submitted By: Joseph R. Harris ( under the supervision of Johan Bergstrom )
Submitted To: Lund University, Sweden
Date of Submission: 2015-06-02 ( June 2, 2015 )
http://www.academia.edu/26024193/DO_STAFF_RIDES_HELP_MOVE_THE_FOREST_SERVICE_TOWARD_ITS_GOAL_OF_BECOMING_A_LEARNING_ORGANIZATION_Thesis_Project_work_submitted_in_partial_fulfillment_of_the_requirements_for_the_MSc_in_Human_Factors_and_System_Safety
It’s a really well done paper.
On page 14, he asserts his belief that Wildland Firefighters fatalities are NOT an ‘inevitablity’…
———————————————————————————–
The goal of the Forest Service is to become a learning organization. One of the metrics in place to measure whether the Forest Service is learning is a sustained safety record of zero fatalities. In order for that to happen, lessons learned from accident investigations need to result in some kind of change.
———————————————————————————–
He goes on to explain that, basically, if the industry keeps experiencing the same kinds of fatalities, then there is definable ‘failure’ in the learning/training process itself.
Here is another public link to Joseph Harris’ THESIS paper regarding ‘Staff Rides’… which has also been published at ‘Fire Leadership.com’…
THESIS TITLE: Do Staff Rides Help Move the Forest Service Toward Its Goal of Becoming a Learning Organization?
Submitted By: Joseph R. Harris ( under the supervision of Johan Bergstrom )
Submitted To: Lund University, Sweden
Date of Submission: 2015-06-02 ( June 2, 2015 )
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/StaffRides_thesis.pdf
WTKTT,
Human Dimensions specialist Harris’ paper has many good points, however, this gem caught my eye on page 29:
“While staff rides are effective, they are expensive and are not scalable. There is also a perceived gap between the traditional written report and the staff ride. The Forest Service can make progress toward its goal of becoming a learning organization by closing this gap through
designing learning products that aim to replicate the emotional
and intellectual impact of the staff ride to a much wider audience>”
Scalable is defined as “… largely limited to a small number of participants.”
Harris ducks addressing this important point here and soft-shoes a response to it.
“THERE IS ALSO A PERCEIVED GAP BETWEEN THE TRADITIONAL WRITTEN REPORT AND THE STAFF RIDE.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) .
Really? Merely a “perceived gap between the traditional written report and the staff ride.”?
The traditional written reports of ALL fatal wildland fire “factual investigations” are false with preconceived “conclusions” and nowadays no causal factors or blame or faulty decisions with their so-called Learning Reviews, FLAs, Coordinated Response Protocol (CRaP) and any number of other alphabet creations.
I just posted some more but I am very tired so excuse any typos or errors and I will clean it up this week…I mainly wanted to go through FOIA and add more and I will keep adding as time goes by yet I was at image or figure 40 something and I was going to give it all up because it made me disappointed when I saw all the media names who were involved and really never got involved like John Dougherty or Morgan Loew did and then when I saw the email where it said
Look also at what they said about John Dougherty there.
Bob Baird said to Benny Young that George Vargas had custody of the video/audio August 2013…
Yes I still have more to post but too exhausted…night there…
and yes there is many times I want to shut the page down because I rather be snorkeling but then 19 men do not have a voice even though Frisby and others do..so until they talk I will try and keep the faith and keep posting my documents.
It is extremely time consuming
Fi9nally we have found a weak spot that may lead to someone who actually knows what really happened..
I hope Frisby spills his guts and names names
WTKTT,
It has truly been a blessing to our little community of rabble rousers and conspiracy theorists that you are so ******* smart, but it has been an even bigger blessing that our opponents are so ******* dumb.
Authors Note: If you want to know what the redacted words are, just count up the redacted spaces and take a guess.
And yes…I am still editing my final chapter but I have been pretty ******* layin’ around and lickin’ my nuts.
Whoops:
And yes…I am still editing my final chapter but I have been pretty ******* BUSY layin’ around and lickin’ my nuts.
Say…that reminds me of an old hotshot joke.
One day this old hotshot and young helitack were walking towards the District Office when they saw an old dog layin’ in the sun lickin’ it’s nuts.
“Boy Howdy…I sure wish I could do that” the helitack exclaimed!
“Well…I bet he would bite you if you tried” replied the old hotshot.
And I have been in mourning ever since Dolores O’Riordan got drunk and drowned in a big bathtub in her hotel suite…just like Whitney Houston did…that was “a real bummer…man.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EVXng3sSxLE
That should be a “situation that shouts watch out” for rock stars.
“a real bummer man.” (The Dude in “The Big Lebowski”)
click on my name for latest AFUE information and a letter by Brian Frisby about YH Fire.
Thank you for this comprehensive public posting, Joy.
A lot of hard work is represented there…. and it’s fascinating to see the proof ( all in one place ) of the extent to which U.S. Forestry lawyer Steve Hattenbach ( and, indeed, the entire U.S. Forestry Service ) went to in order to obfuscate the existence of the Yarnell Hill related evidence.
As far as the ‘Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness’ ( AFUE ) study goes… it has always been possible that they really did NOT record the A2G radio traffic on Sunday, June 30, 2013 in the same manner as they recorded the A2A radio channel.
Maybe this really WAS the first time the San Dimas Labs contractors really did try and hook up a video camera to a radio… and they ONLY decided to ‘test’ that with the A2A channel that day.
I am not saying I believe that ‘story’ they are telling.
I am just saying it’s ‘possible’.
But as for them insisting that the ‘original’ records were all given to the SAIT investigators… that remains total horseshit.
The actual ORIGINAL recordings were the ones coming from the various devices themselves.
Eric Panebaker himself, in his own statements, says that he ‘copied’ the data from the devices onto a hard drive ( most likely one of those portable USB hard drives ) and then he gave THAT hard drive to the SAIT investigators a few days after the tragedy.
Those would not be the ORIGINAL recordings.
Those would simply be COPIES of the actual ‘original recordings’.
So even if those were just the ‘first generation’ copies of the originals give to the SAIT on one single hard drive ( as per Pannebaker )… where is that hard drive?
But the part of your post that seems the most revealing is that email from Brian Frisby where he admits ( in writing ) that there has ALWAYS been a ‘coverup’ going on with regards to what really happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, ,2013.
More about that in a ‘new’ parent comment up above.
There is more documents going on tonight. Its in draft mode to add them. In that FOIA file that is the only email with Frisby they offered to me but its not the only FOIA and I did notify him before placing it on my post.
Reply to Joy Collura post on October 14, 2018 at 9:19 pm
>> Joy Collura said…
>>
>> In that FOIA file that is the only email with Frisby they
>> offered to me but its not the only FOIA and I did notify
>> him before placing it on my post.
That one email from Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby to U.S. Forestry Human Factors specialist Joseph Harris can’t be the ONLY one.
In that email, Frisby is obviously ‘responding’ to a previous email from Harris where he was expressing his own concerns ( to Frisby ) about the accuracy of the in-progress Yarnell Hill Fire staff ride narrative.
It’s also very likely that Harris ‘replied’ ( via email ) to this one from Frisby and that the conversation continued… since Frisby seemed VERY anxious to continue the discussion with him and had specifically told Harris he thought it was IMPORTANT to do so, for the sake of the future safety of Wildland Firefighters.
Perhaps Frisby even ended up ‘detailing’ ( to Harris ) exactly what those things were that he KNEW were being ( quote from Frisby ) “swept under the rug”.
So where are those ‘other’ emails?
Why were they not included in the same FOIA response that this one was?
Those are rhetorical questions, of course, and I don’t expect YOU to know why that was the ONLY email to/from Frisby that got included in the FOIA response.
FOIA’s are like that, sometimes, especially when the government agency involved really doesn’t ever want to have to deal with them at all.
You have to keep ‘narrowing’ the FOIA request, sometimes, to remove the ‘wiggle room’ they are looking for to avoid having to release things they don’t WANT to release.
Are Your “Slides” Blinding You? September 27, 2018 / wildfire lessons By Persephone Whelan
( https://wildfirelessons.wordpress.com/2018/09/27/are-your-slides-blinding-you/ )
Pretty good article on this topic, however, once again, the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center would NOT post my comments defending the basic WF Rules. and calling bS on Langer’s comments on applying old answers to new questions.
A few points…
1. It is absolutely astounding that an organization that calls itself a ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center’ would refuse to publish relevant comments from someone who is ( and shall probably always remain ) the longest serving Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew Superintendent in the history of Wildland Firefighting. You don’t serve 26 years ( count’ em’… TWENTY SIX ) as an IHC Supt. and live to tell about it unless you were doing something right.
2. Both the article and some of the comments mention LCES, and how those ‘basics’ seem to have been followed and the Arrowhead Hotshots DO deserve some ‘credit’ for that… so it’s even more astounding that a comment regarding LCES ( from anyone ) would then be subsequently rejected..
3. What the article does NOT mention is that the ‘LCES’ ‘total fail’ that took place at the Horse Park Fire was on the part of the Arrowhead Hotshots Superintendent himself. HE is the one who decided to drive down that canyon road WITHOUT the proper ‘LCES’ in place… and he and the person he took with him down that narrow dirt road almost paid for that ‘total fail’ with their lives.
There WAS a ‘lookout’ in place BEFORE the decision was made to drive down that road with a 4-wheel drive vehicle that didn’t even have the 4-wheel drive engaged ( more ‘fail’ ). That lookout was in the exact right place to TELL this guy whether it was currently ‘safe’ to even head down that narrow road… but this guy didn’t even bother to check with her to see if she was still a functioning ‘lookout’ and ASK her if it was safe to even attempt the scouting trip.
If he had bothered to even try and check with his own lookout… he would have discovered that she had ALREADY lost the ability to communicate. That discovery should have changed the priorities at that point and the focus should have become the lookout’s developing situation.
But he didn’t even bother to do that.
He headed down the road WITHOUT a functioning LOOKOUT., just ASSUMING it was okay to do so. Not good.
As for the rest of LCES… the Supt’s ‘Escape Route’ was the road itself, but he didn’t even bother to fully engage his 4WD before going down it… and when the truck got stuck… the Supt. wasn’t even in good enough physical shape to perform the same ‘exit run’ as the other crewmember. Not much of an ‘Escape Route’ if you can’t run the distance if you need to.
So here’s the LCES breakdown for the near-fatal incident for the Arrowhead IHC Superintendent himself….
L – Didn’t bother to discover if she could still even communicate with him.
C – See above. He didn’t even bother to make sure her radio was still working.
E – A narrow, rough road that required 4WD, and he didn’t bother to engage his beforehand.
S – Safety Zone was too far away for him to even make it back there without a ‘rescue’.
LCES Total Fail.
Followup…
Okay… TOTAL FAIL on MY part in the post above.
The Hotshot Superintendent who didn’t fully engage his own 4WD before heading down that rough, narrow canyon road at the Horse Park Fire ( without a functioning lookout in place ) was the Supt. for the LOGAN Type 1 Hotshot Crew… and not the ARROWHEAD Hotshots.
The ARROWHEAD Hotshots were the ones involved in the other incident this season where their own Captain, Brian Hughes, was killed by a tree that he, himself, was trying to cut down.
I was reading a ‘summary’ earlier today of all the serious incidents ( so far ) this season… including the NEW one TODAY regarding the crew vehicle rollover in California… and I guess I just had ‘Arrowhead Hotshots’ on the brain.
My apologies.
SIDENOTE: We are STILL awaiting the real details about the recent death of Arrowhead IHC Captain Hughes. It is assumed that he actually had the qualifications and the experience to even be attempting to cut down a tree the size of the one that was about to kill him that day… but that has NOT yet been verified by any official information release.
I address this incident in more detail in the MOAP I am currently working on in spite of my delay in getting the ******* (it is going to be awhile before I get tired of this inside joke on those stupid *****) thing published.
BUT…as long as I am here today and my nuts are too sore to lick, here are my thoughts on one thing Brian Hughes MAY not have done that we as a crew and myself as a hotshot sawyer, always did. I will be looking to see if this protocol was followed when the official release does come out. I don’t even know if this protocol is Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) in today’s WF world or not, but if it isn’t, it damn well should be.
And that critical SOP that MAY have been missing when Captain Hues was killed, is to ALWAYS have a spotter with their hand firmly holding the sawyer’s belt (it’s the same thing you will see the Secret Service always do with their protectee if you watch them move down the rope lines) while watching for widow makers (dead branches falling from above) while being alert for all dangers (once my spotter who was also my swamper, noticed some barb wire that was hidden in the dense undergrowth and been part of an old fence decades earlier on the huge Douglas fir tree I was dropping had wrapped around my leg and it was deeply embedded in the tree trunk. I would have bled out shortly after that several ton tree amputated my leg while falling down that very steep slope, I still think about that incident more often than I like) and is ready to sharply pull the sawyer in the direction they should move quickly away from in falling tree in after shutting off the saw and placing it on the ground in one smooth motion.
You should never run because you might just die tired, move swiftly and smoothly. Smooth is fast…which is the same principle you should use while drawing your sidearm or moving towards gun fire…FYI.
And FYI…the sawyers preplanned escape route will be at a diagonal angle away from the subject tree which normally starts at either 1630 (0430) or 1930 (0730) assuming the tree is falling at 1200 (2400) on a 24 hour clock.
BUT…that can and does often change very quickly and both the spotter and swamper must be alert and ready to implement Plan B.
And FYI…the 1800 (0600) hour angle is the Dead Zone if the tree splinters under extreme pressure and kicks back or Barber Chairs. So…don’t even go there unless you have a death wish. 🙂
I’m not explaining this phenomenon very well…but if the tree trunk has a fault for a variety of reasons like an old lightning strike or a rotten portion, the tree can splinter when your backcut is about 1/3 of the way through the backcut while the trunk in under enourmas pressure from tons of weight bearing down on a few inches of wood.
So…when your backcut reaches the flaw, it may split and 1/3 (using this example) of the trunk will “kick back” with tremdous speed and torque, which might tear your arm off, shatter it…or maybe strike your torso killing you DEAD.
And then the tree will fall down tearing off the splinter as it falls, which results in a stump that kinda resembles a “barber chair.. with the splintered portion kinda looking like the back of the chair. Now…I have beaten that horse to death. You’re welcome.
Or if you want to learn how to be a hotshot sawyer, you can do it mostly like I did many years before I was even on s hotshot crew by watching one of the greatest movies ever made, “Sometimrs a Great Notion.” This trailer even shows a good example of how a “barber chair” is made.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QoNViAppTJ8
I still remember the scene when Lee Remick strips off her nightgown in the bathroom implied sex scene. It was right up there with Jane Fonda in Barbarella because she had that wholesome “girl next door look” which appealed to me cause I was the boy next door. Whoa 😮 now…is this TMI?
Okay…just one more:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KvDpiUD3lJs
And no RTS…as a teenager, I didn’t fantasize about ******* Jane Fonda’s politics. Did you…you pervert?
Okay…just one more fir RTS, Special!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b-VuQdXllxI
I was like…14 when I saw that movie! Who was watching the Candy Store on that one?
But like RTS wrote in
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474985
“This is a reminder to readers and posters and visitors alike that this website is the “Yarnell Hill Fire” link which should reveal a lot of Yarnell Hill Fire subject matter. It does accomplish that and it also has a lot (most) of posts about wildland fires in general.”
But SOME of us do go off the rails at times and we do cover other topics, which makes it more FUN and ENTERTAINING…don’t you agree RTS?
Ohhhhh…**** it, I still ****** that explanation. Just watch the movie trailer at 1:38. I have one I am going tp post with my MOAP that I guarantee will make you go pee pee in your pants. I know it did me whenever I watch it…and I know what is going to happen cause I already watched it a bunch of times.
Oh never mind…here it is now, get ready to have the shit scared right out of you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9O7H9qWdquk
And I just noticed something very interesting the umpteenth time I watched it.
The caller actually has the stones. presence of mind and situational awareness to stop….turn…and evaluate which way he should run in the middle of that catastrophic failure. WOW!
The “FALLER”…not caller. Damn auto correct thinks it’s smarter than me. I would turn it off…except it IS smarter than me.
Which reminds me of another old hotshot joke I already told once on this thread about me and The Woodsman…but it’s been several years now.
One day an old bull and a young bull were walking down a slope towards a herd of cows.
“Say…let’s run down there and **** a cow” exclaimed the young bull.
“Let’s walk down there and **** em’ all” replied the old bull.”
**
** NEW ROLLOVER / INJURIES
Here’s a link to an article about the new ‘rollover’ referenced above that just happened there in “The Kill Zone” ( California )…
The Enterprise Recoder
Article Title: Fire crew injured in I-5 rollover crash
Published: September 27, 2018 at 2:11 pm
Updated: September 28, 2018 at 8:03 am
https://www.chicoer.com/2018/09/27/fire-crew-injured-in-i-5-rollover-crash/
From that article…
————————————————————————
RED BLUFF ( California ) — Five firefighters were injured, including one classified as major injury, when a box truck belonging to a private company transporting a fire crew rolled over Wednesday afternoon on Interstate 5, according to a California Highway Patrol spokesman.
Driver Kevin Crone, 32, of Magalia and three passengers were taken to St. Elizabeth Community Hospital in Red Bluff with minor injuries, the spokesman said. The passengers were identified as David Jones, 27, of Chico, Dylan Kelley, 20, of Paradise and Steven Brannon, 26, of Chico.
A fourth passenger, Cody Mackel, 33, of Paradise was taken to St. Elizabeth with major injuries.
The truck, which belongs to Firestorm Wildland Fire Suppression Inc. of Chico, was being driven north on I-5 when it crashed south of Tehama at 3:55 p.m. Wednesday, the spokesman said.
For unknown reasons, Crone allowed the vehicle to veer off the east road edge. As he tried to steer it back onto the freeway, he lost control, went across both northbound lanes entered the center divider and overturned, the spokesman said.
—————————————————————————–
For ‘unknown reasons’?
Hmm… yet another ‘falling asleep at the wheel’ incident?
NOTE: The SAME COMPANY ( Chico, California based company Firestorm Wildland Fire Suppression, Inc. ) had ANOTHER serious Crew-Carrier rollover just last year, on August 11, 2017.
In THAT ‘rollover’… EIGHT firefighters were injured and taken to the hospital…
KRCR News – Channel 7
Article Title: Eight firefighters injured in fire crew truck rollover in Modoc Co.
Published: August 12, 2017 – by Haleigh Pike
https://krcrtv.com/news/local/fire-crew-truck-assigned-to-parker-2-fire-rolls-over-injuries-reported
From that article…
———————————————————————————–
CEDARVILLE, Calif. – Eight Firestorm firefighters were injured Friday morning after the crew truck they were riding in rolled over while traveling on Highway 299E near McKenney Road, west of Cedarville.
According to Firestorm, all eight members who were injured were passengers. CHP reported that all eight were taken to the hospital. Five of them were treated and released. Three were airlifted to other hospitals, two going to Reno and one was taken to Mercy Medical Center in Redding.
Firestorm said of the three taken by helicopter, two were treated and released and one firefighter is still undergoing medical evaluation.
The eight man team worked for Chico-based Firestorm Wildland Fire Suppression Inc. Firestorm said all the men were from Chico and Paradise.
CHP officials reported that the crash happened as a convoy of crews were heading into the Parker 2 Fire. Officials said a deer reportedly crossed the road, causing the lead vehicle to stop. The Firestorm crew was in the rear of the convoy, and in order to avoid a crash, they drove up the embankment before rolling over back onto the highway.
———————————————————————————–
More articles and information about the deadly CDF Carr Fire in CA.
Carr Fire’s Urban Residential Destruction: A Design for Disaster?
By Royal Burnett September 25, 2018. ( https://anewscafe.com/2018/09/25/redding/carr-fires-urban-residential-destruction-a-design-for-disaster/ )
Royal was the CDF Helitack Captain out of Howard Forest on the Mendocino RU. Fellow WFs were always impressed with his tactical acumen. He astutely tied in the Campbell Prediction System (CPS) without having to go into it in detail.
Experienced and knowledgable WFs are well aware of the CPS and utilize it, especially the concept of ‘Alignment of Forces.’
This is a reminder to readers and posters and visitors alike that this website is the “Yarnell Hill Fire” link which should reveal a lot of Yarnell Hill Fire subject matter. It does accomplish that and it also has a lot (most) of posts about wildland fires in general.
Remember to visit Joy A. Collura’s ( yarnellhillfirerevelations.com) website and in particular, her most recent (ONGOING) post titled: “Love Is Freedom … So Is Telling The Truth. Are Y O U Ready?
September 1, 2018 | Arizona Desert Walker Joy A. Collura and contributing other(s)
She has steadfastly been pursuing Public Records Requests for information on the June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire. Her most recent journey .on this will reveal the Public records morass that she is wading through.
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/08/29/Love-Is-Freedom-Yet-So-Is-Telling-The-Truth-Are-You-Ready )
The posted Crew Time Reports (CTRs) and Fire Time reports (FTRs) are interesting and reveal the typical posting of one’s fire time while on the firelines to “SHOW” a meal period rather than actually take one. SHOWING a Meal Period and not actually taking one and then adding time on at the end of one’s shift is considered FRAUD.
Here is Cornell University Law School posting regarding Compensable Meal Periods at 29 CFR 785.19a.
§ 785.19 Meal.
(a)Bona fide meal periods. Bona fide meal periods are not worktime. Bona fide meal periods do not include coffee breaks or time for snacks. These are rest periods. The employee must be completely relieved from duty for the purposes of eating regular meals. Ordinarily 30 minutes or more is long enough for a bona fide meal period. A shorter period may be long enough under special conditions. The employee is not relieved if he is required to perform any duties, whether active or inactive, while eating. For example, an office employee who is required to eat at his desk or a factory worker who is required to be at his machine is working while eating. (Culkin v. Glenn L. Martin, Nebraska Co., 97 F. Supp. 661 (D. Neb. 1951), aff’d 197 F. 2d 981 (C.A. 8, 1952), cert. denied 344 U.S. 888 (1952); Thompson v. Stock & Sons, Inc., 93 F. Supp. 213 (E.D. Mich 1950), aff’d 194 F. 2d 493 (C.A. 6, 1952); Biggs v. Joshua Hendy Corp., 183 F. 2d 515 (C. A. 9, 1950), 187 F. 2d 447 (C.A. 9, 1951); Walling v. Dunbar Transfer & Storage Co., 3 W.H. Cases 284; 7 Labor Cases para. 61.565 (W.D. Tenn. 1943); Lofton v. Seneca Coal and Coke Co., 2 W.H. Cases 669; 6 Labor Cases para. 61,271 (N.D. Okla. 1942); aff’d 136 F. 2d 359 (C.A. 10, 1943); cert. denied 320 U.S. 772 (1943); Mitchell v. Tampa Cigar Co., 36 Labor Cases para. 65, 198, 14 W.H. Cases 38 (S.D. Fla. 1959); Douglass v. Hurwitz Co., 145 F. Supp. 29, 13 W.H. Cases (E.D. Pa. 1956))
(b)Where no permission to leave premises. It is not necessary that an employee be permitted to leave the premises if he is otherwise completely freed from duties during the meal period.
Highlighting this section:”The employee must be completely relieved from duty for the purposes of eating regular meals. … The employee is not relieved if he is required to perform any duties, whether active or inactive, while eating..” Once again, SHOWING a Meal Period and not actually taking one and then adding time on at the end of one’s shift is considered FRAUD.
So then, when is a WF or FF on the firelines ever completely relieved from duty for the purpose of eating a meal? NEVER !!! Because they are REQUIRED to perform the duty of LCES and much more.
I want to read your comment RTS but I just am staring at the screen
I have tried to fix glitches on my page for days now
it is running nutty…it just says RELOAD and I lose all I was doing…
I feel Blessed yet sad…this weekend I should be with my other brother celebrating his Birthday yet I am really pleased to have someone take me to my long time friend’s Memorial at Old Tucson and I will forever cherish this gesture because I miss him dearly.
Please never forget the old people…my long time knowing friend Jack N. Young died last Wednesday even though the media has it Thursday…it was a long health journey…my pal he was one of a kind and God sure leads the ONE OF A KINDS my way, ey.
He at one time was the stunt guy for Clark Gable and John Wayne…I do miss him. I almost wanted to cave in on the blog but in recent times Jack told me to KEEP THE FAITH and get the TRUTHS out there.
He really believed in me that I could always carry on and persevere no matter the challenges and there has been some lately. I had to even make my insurance guy aware if something happens to me or my surroundings out of the norm—I told him where they should look first
…if I can just clean my page up and “catch up” it is about to get more serious this Season…over at my blog but I sure miss reading here…aka “skimming” 😉
https://youtu.be/B7oXrqgD4qg
please take the time for the remembrance….
Good one. John Wayne has always been one of my favorites. Here’s another one that begins a series of your good friend Jack Young video clips.
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4q5RqtpRhU&list=PL3ynq2tIubzTSChWA4vCOq9dm85LM67Z8 )
oh how I miss him.
I know we are just to be so happy he lived a full life yet it’s that full life I miss…
I am use to getting so many incoming communications to zip.
I know one of you asked me recently: “who authorized the burn? Was Tony aware? Was it possible to authorize plans on the fire before physically arriving on the fire? (by phone for example)
Good inquiries and I hope as the data keeps unfolding on my blog you gain some answers there.
After I get the muster to remember all of us have our last breathe some day and spend time with Jack’s family this week then I will keep the Faith and work on the posts so that more data is shown so you all can properly assess the YH Fire in the purest form it should have been shown from the get go if only the investigator PIO knew how important it was to be transparent from the get go because truth always has its way to come around even if you felt “keep quiet” or turn in your stuff because it belongs to the Government would help you from showing it all that happened. If anyone wants to answer the questions above for someone- please feel free as I seem to just stare at the computer screen lately…
I miss you Jack.
When Sonny scurried on to new dusty trails as the wind blew he recently received news that his cancer is back so please keep the ol’ fella in your prayers. The location of it needs immediate attention. He sure went through a hell of alot of surgeries and heart attacks. He said his oxygen and breathing have him plum tuckered at times. He appreciates everyone here. He has tried to write here yet I think the captcha part is but a confusion.
Life is precious.
I pray continues to bless Sonny! And you as well Joy.
SHIT FIRE AND SAVE MATCHES!
I pray GOD continues to bless Sonny. And you as well Joy.
**
** CALFIRE ‘GREEN SHEET’ REPORT ON THE DEATH OF UTAH
** FIREFIGHTER MATTHEW BURCHETT BECAUSE OF A RETARDANT DROP.
CALFIRE has now published their secondary ‘Green Sheet’ report about the death of Utah firefighter Matthew Burchett on August 13, 2018,while he was working the northwest corner of the Mendocino Fire Complex.
It is available at the following page ( along with the original ‘Blue Sheet’ report )…
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( Hosted by the U.S. National Park Service )…
Page Title: Ranch Fire Tree Strike Fatality
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=cdfc0a5a-885b-45c7-81e0-0e09479a5cad
A direct link to the new ‘Green Sheet’ PDF file itself is as follows…
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=33d22e82-69a8-2c58-9fc6-008e88ab6f0e&forceDialog=0
The original ‘Blue Sheet’ report on this incident from CALFIRE was only saying that the VLAT retardant drop ( from a 747-400 aircraft ) MIGHT have been the cause of the tree that fell on Burchett and caused his fatal injuries. It was leaving the possibility ( absurd as it seems ) that the tree that killed him *might* have just fallen on him right at the same time the retardant drop happened.
The new ‘Green Sheet’ report puts that ‘Blue Sheet’ bullshit to rest, and absolutely VERIFIES that Matthew Burchett was killed as a DIRECT result of a retardant drop gone bad.
So CALFIRE gets points for finally having the backbone to admit that is what really happened… but other than that… this ‘Green Sheet’ report is basically a joke and leaves many, many questions unanswered.
The new ‘Green Sheet’ report has SOME ‘better detail’ than the original ‘Blue Sheet’ report… but not much.
It now says that the retardant drop that killed Burchett took place at 5:25 PM… but it was the FOURTH retardant drop ( from the same 747-400 VLAT airplane and crew ) in that same location that afternoon.
And even though it was the FOURTH drop in the SAME area… CALFIRE now wants us to believe that the ASM and the crew on the VLAT still had ‘no idea’ that there was a large ‘hill’ in the drop zone and this ignorance is what led to the drop being too low and then blasting the tree out of the ground and right onto Burchett and the 3 other injured firefighters who did NOT die in the same incident.
Other ‘weirdness’ about this report ( just off the top of my head )…
1. Initial reports from witnesses following the incident seemed to indicate that Burchett and some other FFs were struck by the retardant-drop uprooted trees while they were sitting in a vehicle… and that the adjoining forces who first arrived to help had to find a way to ‘extricate’ Burchett from the vehicle before they could administer medical treatment. The new report says absolutely nothing about that and indicates that all four firefighters who were struck by the debris from the botched retardant drop were just ‘standiing around’ in that clearing and possibly playing ‘tourist’ and taking photos and videos of the inbound drop itself.
The final paragraph of the report talks about how it is now acknowledged that many FFs on the line just love to take photos and videos of the VLAT drops ( because everybody LOVES them some VLAT videos )… but that this is not a safe thing to do.
The report does NOT say that Matthew Burchett and the other 3 FFs were playing tourist and taking ‘videos’ of the drop that was about to kill/injure them… but it is absolutely IMPLIED that that is what really happened that afternoon.
And I will bet a fin to a sawbuck that if that IS the case ( that they were all standing there taking photos and videos of the ‘cool’ VLAT drop(s) )… then those photos and videos have been CONFISCATED by CALFIRE and will never see the light of day, just like the Yarnell Fire SAIT confiscated all the photos and videos taken by the Peeples Valley firefighters on June 30, 2013 and never released them even after valid, legal Arizona Open Records requests for them.
2. The report says basically NOTHING about what happened after the drop, or how LONG it took to get Burchett air-lifted out of the area.
According to all other testimony and media reports… Matthew Burchett did not die right away. He ( supposedly ) was still alive when he finally arrived at the Ukiah Valley Medical facility and ‘succumbed to his injuries’ some ( still-unkown ) time after that.
The report says…
NOTE: The report ( of course ) never mentions ‘Matthew Burchett’ by name. It only refers to him at ‘TFL2’…
———————————————————————————————————–
The force of the retardant drop uprooted an 87-foot tall Douglas Fir with a 15-inch diameter at breast height (DBH). It fell on TFL2 and caused fatal injuries.
INJURIES/DAMAGES
1. TFL2 suffered fatal crushing injuries.
———————————————————————————————————–
It is only in the ‘INJURIES/DAMAGES’ section of the report where it says that the fatal injuries were CRUSH injuries.
But nowhere in the report does it include any mention of any work that might have needed to be done to extricate Matthew Burchett from ‘underneath’ anything, or how much TIME that might have taken.
The only thing the report says about what took place AFTER the incident is covered with just two short sentences…
———————————————————————————————————-
Within seconds after the accident, an Incident Within an Incident (IWI) was declared. Injured personnel were treated by Advanced Life Support (ALS) providers assigned to resources on the division and then transported to the hospital for further treatment.
———————————————————————————————————
But a local TV station was monitoring/recording the radio traffic that afternoon and they origijnally reported about some of what was ‘heard’ over the radio following the incident ( which the CALFIRE ‘Green Sheet’ report now fails to mention ).
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to ‘2 link limit’ in a single posting )…
Before I post a link to that article which reports what was heard over the radio following Matthew Burchett’s fatal injuries… I forgot to include up above something that the CALFIRE ‘Green Sheet’ report didn’t.
The GPS coordinates of exactly where Matthew Burchett received his fatal injuries.
** EXACT LOCATION OF THE MATTHEW BURCHETT TREE STRIKE
Latitude: 39.357788
Longitude: -123.056492
Altitude: 3,020 ft. MSL ( Mean Sea Level )
Just click the following and a ‘RED Balloon’ will appear on a Google Maps Satellite image showing exactly where Burchett was struck by the botched retardant-drop tree strike…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2%B021'28.0%22N+123%C2%B003'23.4%22W/@39.357788,-123.0570527,192m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d39.357788!4d-123.056492
NOTE: From the Green Sheet report…
—————————————————————————————————-
DIVS C requested the next drop be “snugged up” closer to the dozer line. The ASM acknowledged the request and advised a closer drop would cause retardant to land on the dozer line. DIVS C acknowledged this information. The ASM made a “show me” run for the VLAT over the intended path for the retardant drop with the VLAT observing. The ASM requested a coverage level six retardant drop and a minimum drop altitude at 3,200 feet mean sea level (MSL).
——————————————————————————————————
Notice that the ‘Green Sheet’ report says the ‘fatal’ retardant drop run was requested to be at a minimum drop altitude of 3,200 feet mean sea level ( MSL ).
The actual GROUND LEVEL spot where Matthew Burchett was struck ( not including the height of any trees ) was at 3,020 MSL.
That only 180 feet lower than the actual ‘requested’ minimum drop altitude, as per the report.
** THE ‘DIVS C’ WHO CALLED FOR THE ‘CLOSE DROP’ AND ALSO FAILED
** TO MAKE SURE ALL FIREFIGHTERS WERE CLEAR OF THE DROP LOCATION
According to the actual IAP ( Incident Action Plan ) for the Mendocino Fire Complex during that August 13, 2018 Operational Period… this ‘DIV C’ person ( For Branch ‘i” ) was actually either someone named G. Prater *OR* his assigned ‘DIVS Trainee’ by the name of J. Waters.
The CALFIRE ‘Green Sheet’ report does NOT say whether the ‘DIVS C’ they keep referring to was Prater himself… or his ‘Trainee’ J. Waters.
From the August 13, 2018 IAP itself,. posted PUBLICLY on the NIFC’s FTP Server…
https://ftp.nifc.gov/public/incident_specific_data/calif_n/!CALFIRE/2018_Incidents/CA-MEU-008674_Mendocino_Complex/IAP/20180813/08-13-2018%20Run_OPTIMIZED.pdf
—————————————————————————————————–
CALFIRE
Incident Action Plan ( IAP )
Mendocino Complex Fire
Operational Period: 8/13/2018 0700 TO 8/14/2018 0700
7. Operation Section
Chief: Mike Inman / Billy Steers
Deputy: Nick Casci / Scott Lucas (T)
Night Ops: Bill Lopez / Chad Cook
Air Operations Branch Director: Rob Sonsteng / Mike Deacon ( Trainee )
Air Support Group Supervisor: Brad Idol
Helibase Manager: Byron Vance
BRANCH I
Director(s): P. Tolosano / R. Sonsteng (T) / B. Weiser ( Deputy )
Division / Group C: G. Prater / J. Waters (T) / S. Santos (N) / N. Balent (T)(N)
Division / Group D: Beverly Gardiner / Leigh Hender
Division / Group E: Justin Pinson / Robert Gore
Division / Group F: G. Neely / M. Fullagar / A. Hickman (T)
Division / Group Structure Group: Shannon Banks
Division / Group Road Group: Jeromy Cox
( snip )
—————————————————————————————————–
As for this non-informative blurb in the CALFIRE ‘Green Sheet’ report…
———————————————————————————————————-
Within seconds after the accident, an Incident Within an Incident (IWI) was declared. Injured personnel were treated by Advanced Life Support (ALS) providers assigned to resources on the division and then transported to the hospital for further treatment.
———————————————————————————————————
…check out the following article.
Reporters for the nearby ‘Lake County News’ were actually LISTENING to the RADIO TRAFFIC that took place once the botched retardant drop happened.
They were following the requests for ‘medevac’ following the incident, and what medical attention Burchett was already receiving ‘on the ground’ at the incident site… until the radio feed was suddenly CUT OFF.
NOTE: The Article also has additional information that has NOT been included in CALFIRE’s ‘Green Sheet’ report including an ICS incident map showing ‘Branch 1, Division C’ where the accident really happened…
Lake County News
Article Title: Cal Fire report says low retardant drop led to incident that killed firefighter on Mendocino Complex
Published: Saturday, 15 September 2018 03:12 PM
By: Elizabeth Larson
http://www.lakeconews.com/index.php/news/57837-cal-fire-report-says-low-retardant-drop-led-to-incident-that-killed-firefighter-on-mendocino-complex
From that article…
—————————————————————————————————–
( PHOTO: MAP OF MENDOCINO COMPLEX FIRE )
PHOTO CAPTION: The Mendocino Complex as mapped on the morning of Monday, August 13, 2018. Map courtesy of Cal Fire.
LAKE COUNTY, Calif. – A Cal Fire report released Friday said the veteran Utah firefighter who died in August on the Mendocino Complex was killed by a tree that fell as the result of a low altitude retardant drop.
Draper City Fire Battalion Chief Matthew Burchett, 42, died on the evening of Aug. 13 from injuries he sustained when he was hit by the falling tree on the Ranch fire portion of the Mendocino Complex, as Lake County News has reported.
The Cal Fire “green sheet” report issued Friday is published in its entirety below.
The report said that on the northwestern flank of the Ranch fire, aerial retardant drops were used to reinforce the dozer line Burchett, who was leading a Utah multi-agency task force, and a strike team of type four engines from Kings County were assigned to the Ranch fire’s Branch I, Division C on the Mendocino County side of the fire in the Middle Mountain Range, approximately 500 yards north of Irishman’s Flat at an elevation of 3,000 feet.
During the retardant drops, Burchett was struck by an uprooted 87-foot-tall Douglas Fir tree. He was flown to Ukiah Valley Medical Center where he died a short time later.
Three other firefighters also were injured at the same time when they were hit by parts of another tree. They included two fire captains from a multiagency Utah group, one who suffered major injuries after being struck by a broken tree top and another who sustained moderate injuries – as did a fire apparatus engineer from Kings County – when hit by falling tree debris resulting from the retardant drop.
The air tanker that made the drop that led to the falling trees was a Boeing 747-400 configured as a very large air tanker, or VLAT, with a retardant capacity of 19,200 gallons, the report said.
On the morning of the incident, the Mendocino Complex was 344,890 acres with 68-percent containment, which at that point broke down to 295,970 acres and 59-percent containment on the Ranch fire and 48,920 acres and 93-percent containment on the River fire, which was fully contained at that acreage the day after Burchett died.
Since Burchett’s death the complex has grown another 100,000 acres and continues to burn. On Friday it remained at 98-percent containment at a total of 459,123 acres. The Ranch fire remains the only active portion of the complex at 410,203 acres.
( PHOTO: REPRODUCTION OF AN ‘OPS’ MAP FROM THE MENDOCONO COMPLEX FIRE THAT WAS NOT INCLUDED IN ‘GREEN SHEET’ REPORT )
PHOTO CAPTION: The accident that claimed Battalion Chief Matthew Burchett’s life occurred on Branch 1, Division C of the Mendocino
Complex’s Ranch fire portion, a short distance from Irishmans Flat near Drop Point (DP) 19 below the center of the image. Map courtesy of Cal Fire.
Report describes sequence of events
The report explained that, “due to unprecedented fire activity throughout the state,” on July 29 large resource orders were placed seeking assistance from areas including out of state. The Kings County strike team arrived July 30 and the Utah multi-agency task force arrived on Aug. 2.
The report said that on Monday, Aug. 13, the Utah multi-agency task force, with Burchett as leader, and the Kings County strike team were assigned to Branch I, Division C of the Ranch fire, located just west of the Mendocino-Lake County line.
At 7 a.m. that day, Burchett attended the operational briefing at the Mendocino Incident Base for the Ranch fire in Ukiah. The report said he and one of the fire captains who would later be injured along with him participated in the division breakout with the division supervisor and trainee at the Ranch Fire Incident Base.
“During the breakout, the Division C Line Safety Officer shared with all breakout attendees the hazards associated with airtanker retardant drops while working on the line,” the report said.
At 9 a.m., the report said the Utah multi-agency task force staged at Drop Point 19, located just northwest of Irishmans Flat. While staged, Burchett conducted a tailgate safety briefing and discussed the task force’s line assignment before the task force members moved to their work location along Division C, a short distance to the north.
( PHOTO: DIAGRAM OF THE ‘CHANGE IN ELEVATION’ DURING DROP FROM THE CALFIRE ‘GREEN SHEET’ REPORT )
PHOTO CAPTION: The elevation change of the retardant drop site on Monday, August 13, 2018, on the Ranch fire of the Mendocino Complex in
Mendocino County, Calif., that resulted in the death of Draper City Fire Battalion Chief Matthew Burchett. Image from the Cal Fire “green sheet” report.
The report said the task force’s assignment was to reinforce dozer line and place a hose lay to hold a firing operation. Aircraft firefighting operations began on Division C at approximately 1 p.m. when the inversion layer lifted.
“Aircraft were requested to drop retardant adjacent to the dozer line as a reinforcement to hold the line,” the report said, explaining that coordination efforts were in place between Division C, Air Attack and the Aerial Supervision Module.
At 3:40 p.m., it was announced on the Division C tactical frequency that air tankers would be working the area, with a subsequent message broadcast to “clear the area out.” Only one strike team leader acknowledged hearing the broadcast, the report said.
The report said that at 4:02 p.m, 4:23 p.m. and 4:44 p.m. retardant drops were made in the Division C area by large air tankers. The last of those three drops took place approximately 300 feet to the west of the accident site and “landed further outside the dozer line than desired.”
The request was made for the next drop to be “‘snugged up’ closer to the dozer line,” the report said, adding that the Aerial Supervision Module “acknowledged the request and advised a closer drop would cause retardant to land on the dozer line.”
The Aerial Supervision Module “made a ‘show me’ run for the VLAT over the intended path for the retardant drop with the VLAT observing,” the report stated.
The report’s sequence of events explained that the Aerial Supervision Module “requested a coverage level six retardant drop and a minimum drop altitude at 3,200 feet mean sea level.”
At 5:25 p.m., the Aerial Supervision Module proceeded on a final approach over the drop path, identifying the drop path to the VLAT by use of a smoke trail, the report said.
“The VLAT initiated the retardant drop as identified by the smoke trail. Obscured by heavy vegetation and unknown to the VLAT pilot, a rise in elevation occurred along the flight path. This rise in elevation resulted in the retardant drop only being approximately 100 feet above the treetops at the accident site,” the narrative explained.
The report said the force of the retardant drop uprooted an 87-foot tall Douglas Fir with a 15 inch diameter at breast height, which fell on Burchett, mortally injuring him.
The drop also sheared an 89-foot tall, 18-inch diameter Douglas Fir 29 feet above the base, the debris from which hit one of the fire captains, who suffered broken ribs, deep muscle contusions and ligament damage to extremities. That falling tree also resulted in the second fire captain suffering scratches and abrasions, and the Kings County firefighter sustained deep muscle contusions and ligament damage, according to the report.
( PHOTO: AERIAL VIEW OF ACCIDENT SITE FROM CALFIRE ‘GREEN SHEET’ REPORT )
PHOTO CAPTION: The aerial view of the accident site in Mendocino County, Calif., where Draper City Fire Battalion Chief Matthew Burchett was mortally injured on Monday, August 13, 2018, while fighting the Ranch fire on the Mendocino Complex. Image from the Cal Fire “green sheet” report.
“Within seconds after the accident, an Incident Within an Incident (IWI) was declared. Injured personnel were treated by Advanced Life Support (ALS) providers assigned to resources on the division and then transported to the hospital for further treatment,” the report said.
Just before 5:30 p.m. that day, radio traffic Lake County News monitored on the Mendocino Complex included a report of a man hit by a tree on the dozer line with a need for immediate assistance and an IWI declared.
A few minutes later, radio reports from the accident scene said a medivac may be needed out of Drop Point 19, with a followup report shortly afterward stating that said they had an unconscious patient and were doing cardiopulmonary resuscitation on him. A medivac unit was then directed to respond to Drop Point 15, about six miles southwest of Lake Pillsbury, to transport him.
Minutes later, the major incident radio feed for the Mendocino Complex was CUT OFF and would remain offline.
Officials later reported that Burchett was airlifted to Ukiah Valley Medical Center, where he died of his injuries.
At Burchett’s funeral the following week in Utah, when his fellow firefighters carried his gear in his funeral procession, it was stained bright red with retardant.
The report lists a number of safety issues for review, including, “Aerial drops are inherently hazardous and caution should be used when working in areas with aircraft operations,” adding that supervisors must ensure all fire line personnel are notified and acknowledge impending aerial drops, that drop paths must be cleared when personnel are working under a tree canopy and that fire personnel need to always maintain situational awareness.
Under “incidental issues/lessons learned,” the report also noted…
“Fireline personnel have used their cell phones to video the aerial retardant drops. The focus on recording the retardant drops on video may distract firefighters. This activity may impair their ability to recognize the hazards and take appropriate evasive action possibly reducing or eliminating injuries.”
—————————————————————————————————
So… is the report trying to say that Matthew Burchett and his crew WERE ‘taking photos and videos’ of the inbound VLAT drops at the time they were injured… or not?
It remains unclear and is just one of the ‘questions’ that still needs to be answered.
Thanks for the summary, wtk
Good to hear from you, calvin… and I know you know the drill.
These ‘official’ investigation reports just always seem to raise even more questions than they answer.
This one is no different.
We now learn that Matthew Burchett was fatally injured by the FOURTH retardant drop by the SAME 747-400 with the SAME flight-deck crew using the SAME Air Support Module in the SAME AREA where they were assigned to be working.
According to the ‘Green Sheet’ report… even the retardant drop just prior to the one that was going to go bad took place just 300 feet ( that’s 300 FEET, not YARDS ) west of the dozer line where Burchett and his crew were working.
That’s already almost ‘too close for comfort’… but even that wasn’t good enough for ‘DIVS C’.
SIDENOTE: The report still doesn’t say whether it was the ACTUAL ( fully qualified ) DIVS ‘C’ G. Prater who had the radio at that time and was directing the drops, or whether it was his assigned ‘DIVS Trainee’ J. Waters.
‘DIVS C’ then asked for ANOTHER drop even CLOSER to the dozer line.
Even the ASM said that was gonna put retardant ON the dozer line… and this ‘DIVS C’ said he didn’t care and wanted the ‘snugged up’ FOURTH drop, anyway.
But now we know that regardless of the fact that this ‘DIVS C’ was not making SURE his resources were well out of harm’s way… it is not credible to think ( after THREE drops already ) that Task Force 2 Leader Matthew Burchett and the crew that he was responsible for were NOT aware of the inbound retarrdant operations on that dozer line.
But there they stayed, NOT taking sufficient cover.
Why?
One of the only explanations really is that they were DECIDING to stay there so they could get some ‘cool videos’ of the retardant drops.
Why else would they ( as the report indicates ) all have just been ‘standing there’ in that clearing where they were going to get blasted?
Why even mention this as one of the incidental ‘Lessons to Learn’ in the last paragraph of the report unless the CALFIRE investigators actually had evidence that that is what they were doing at that time?
You don’t get to see one of mankind’s largest flying objects pass right over you every day of the week. The urge to capture the moment in photos and videos is almost irresistible for some firefighters. We saw that in Yarnell itself. When the first VLAT of the day to arrive in Yarnell made those retardant drops at the direction of SPGS2 Darrell Willis near the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’… the ASM module ( Warbis and Lenmark ) would later testify they were ALREADY concerned that Willis and his crews were about to be ‘entrapped’ because their only escape route ( Hays Ranch Road ) was about to be ‘cut off’.
But there they stood… not evacuating… and nothing would do that everyone whip out their smartphones and film the ‘really COOL!’ VLAT drop(s).
Cory Moser’s videos supplied to the SAIT actually show one of those moments… when they were ALL standing there ‘filming the VLAT’ and seemed totally unconcerned that their escape route was about to be compromised.
Cory Moser’s video is basically a video showing Darrell Willis shooting HIS video of the other TWO firefighters also shooting THEIR videos of the one VLAT drop close to the ranch.
Cory Moser’s video of that moment was the only one that ever surfaced, even though HIS video shows Willis shooting HIS own video and the other 2 FFs shooting their own, separate, videos of the same ( close ) VLAT drop.
So I would still bet money that these 4 FFs standing in that clearing just 500 yards north of ‘Irishman’s Flat’ at the Mendocino Complex Fire were doing the same thing we see SPGS2 Willis and HIS crew doing at the Yarnell Fire.
‘Gotta get me some cool VLAT video!’
I believe it’s possible the CALFIRE investigators HAVE those photos/videos and they were ‘informing’ some of the details now mentioned in the ‘Green Sheet’ report.
I believe it’s also highly likely that Matthew Burchett filmed his own death… and they have that video as well.
Even if they don’t ( have those videos )… that last paragraph of this now-released ‘Green Sheet’ report should be a much STRONGER WARNING to ALL line-duty firefighters about NOT going for the ‘cool VLAT videos’ and just getting the fuck out of the way whenever there’s an inbound retardant drop.
The life you save will be your own.
Followup…
Here is a link to Cory Moser’s photos/videos folder in the 2013 Yarnell public evidence Dropbox…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAD-qJ9WVyByR8aRsDPFb8Aza/Photos%20and%20Video/Corey%20Moser%20Photos?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
His THREE videos of VLATs there at the ‘Double Bar A’ ranch are…
IMG_0402.mp4 ( 12:03:40 PM ) First VLAT passover
IMG_0403.mp4 ( 12:05:46 PM ) ‘Show Me’ passover with ASM
IMG_0404.mp4 ( 12:08:38 PM ) Drop pass with ASM
The THIRD Moser video ( IMG_0404.mp4 ) is the one that shows that EVERYONE has now stopped what they are doing ( including SPGS2 Darrell Willis himself ) and they ALL now have their smartphones out to film the actual VLAT drop.
The VLAT ‘banks’ over their position and while no retardant actually falls on them… it was CLOSE. Probably within the same ‘300 foot’ distance as that THIRD drop at the Mendocino Complex… right before the ‘DIVS C’ there asked for that fatal FOURTH drop to be even CLOSER to Burchett and the other 3 FFs.
When the ADOSH investigators eventually interviewed the ‘Bravo 3’ ASM module ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) that was guiding those initial VLAT drops at Yarnell ( seen in Cory Moser’s videos ), they specifically asked Warbis and Lenmark if Willis and Moser and the other FFs down there at the Double Bar-A ranch seemed to (quote) “know what they were doing” ( endquote ) and if they were fully aware of the fire behavior very near them.
Here is what Warbis and Lenmark had to say in response…
—————————————————————————–
A: They were a little oblivious to the fire around them.
( There were ) two heads ( of fire ) that are running down, and, ah one of those heads, um, appeared appeared to threaten the ingress and egress of those people ( Darrell Willis, Corey Moser, etc. ) that were working those structures ( The Double Bar-A Ranch ).
They seemed to be a little oblivious to, um, where they were and, um and I told them that if ya – you better have a good spot to be that you’re willing to ride this out.
Q: You think they shoulda left before they left?
A: I had that sense. I was very concerned, um, that they did NOT have a good sense of what was coming or how fast the fire was coming in.
Q: Yeah, gotcha.
A: They had terrain features too that were – that egress got cut off. It was a one way egress, and if that fire would’ve got too far out there…
—————————————————————————–
So even though ASM ‘Bravo 3’ WARNED Willis and Moser they might be about to become ‘trapped’ at that Double Bar-A Ranch… they did nothing… and still felt the need to stay there and not miss the opportunity to ‘film’ the upcoming ‘cool VLAT drops’.
I believe Cory Moser’s Yarnell VLAT videos are relevant to what happened to Matthew Burchett and his crew… because if any photos or videos DO exist from August 13, 2018, at that location, I believe they are going to look a LOT like Moser’s Yarnell video(s).
People filming people filming people who are ALL filming an inbound VLAT drop…
…until it all goes horribly wrong.
WTKTT,
Thanks for posting all these and expanding on them. Here’s another article from the Salt Lake (UT) Tribune by Don Thompson | The Associated Press; Published: 3 days ago, Updated: 2 days ago
( https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/09/14/utah-firefighters-death/ )
Hopefully, more information in here.
I never could resist (when I had my instamatic with me) even when it wasn’t a VLAT. Most WF LOVE Hero Shots.
**
** WHY DID THE MEDEVAC FOR BURCHETT TAKE PLACE AT DROP-POINT 15
** INSTEAD OF THE MUCH-CLOSER DROP-POINT 19?
More about what did ( or didn’t? ) happen immediately following the Matthew Burchett tree strike due to a retardant-drop-gone-bad.
If you look at the OPERATIONS map for August 13, 2018 that the ‘Lake County News’ has published at the top of this article…
Lake County News
Article Title: Cal Fire report says low retardant drop led to incident that killed firefighter on Mendocino Complex
Published: Saturday, 15 September 2018 03:12 PM
By: Elizabeth Larson
http://www.lakeconews.com/index.php/news/57837-cal-fire-report-says-low-retardant-drop-led-to-incident-that-killed-firefighter-on-mendocino-complex
…it shows the ‘Drop Points’ that were mentioned over the radio immediately following the Burchett tree strike.
The Lake County News reporters were LISTENING to that ( live ) radio traffic and they report hearing all of the following…
——————————————————————————-
Just before 5:30 p.m. that day, radio traffic Lake County News monitored on the Mendocino Complex included a report of a man hit by a tree on the dozer line with a need for immediate assistance and an IWI declared.
A few minutes later, radio reports from the accident scene said a medivac may be needed out of Drop Point 19, with a followup report shortly afterward stating that said they had an unconscious patient and were doing cardiopulmonary resuscitation on him.
A medivac unit was then directed to respond to Drop Point 15, about six miles southwest of Lake Pillsbury, to transport him.
Minutes later, the major incident radio feed for the Mendocino Complex was CUT OFF and would remain offline.
Officials later reported that Burchett was airlifted to Ukiah Valley Medical Center, where he died of his injuries.
At Burchett’s funeral the following week in Utah, when his fellow firefighters carried his gear in his funeral procession, it was stained bright red with retardant.
——————————————————————————-
They report hearing TWO ‘Drop Points’ being discussed on the radio.
Drop point 19
This was RIGHT NEXT to where Burchett and his crew were working when the accident took place.
Drop point 15
This was NOT near Burchett and his crew.
It was about 3.5 miles to the southeast ( as the bird flies ), in the McCreary Glade just below Garrett Mountain… but the only way to get there from the accident site was via a long, winding two-track road called ‘Mid Mountain Road’ which would have required a 4.96 mile ( call it 5 mile ) rough journey.
So the radio traffic was initially requesting a potential medevac at Drop point 19, right next to where the accident took place, but then the request got CHANGED to having the medevac take place MUCH farther away, at Drop Point 15.
Why?
How was Burchett ‘transported’ those 5 miles over that rough two-track down to ‘Drop Point 15’ for the medevac?
How LONG did that ‘journey’ take?
Was CPR being maintained for that entire ‘journey’ down to ‘Drop Point 15’?
The CALFIRE ‘Green Sheet’ report mentions NONE of this.
Drop Points are not designated for helicopter landings or evacs.. Only helispots fill that bill. It is likely that DP 15 DID have enough space for evac but DP 19 didn’t.
According to CALFIRE’s own OPS map, DP 19 was located on the. north side of a huge, flat clearing called “Irishmans Flat”. Plenty of room for a chopper.
Followup…
** DROP POINT LOCATIONS
According to the official OPS map that was in use on the Mendocino Complex Fire on August 13, 2018 ( the day Matthew Burchett was fatally injured in ‘Division C’ ), the ‘Drop Points’ that were involved at one point or the other in the post-accident medevac operation are as follows…
DP19
Large, flat, cleared area in the northwest corner of a land feature known as “Irishmans Flat” 800 yards ( via two-track road ) south of the accident site.
Decimal Latitude: 39.348970
Decimal Longitude: -123.059692
Click the following link and a ‘Google Maps’ satellite image will appear with a ‘RED Balloon’ marking the exact location of DP19…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2%B020'56.3%22N+123%C2%B003'34.9%22W/@39.3487543,-123.0604097,461m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d39.34897!4d-123.059692
DP15
Large, flat, cleared area in south part of the land feature known as “McCreary Glade”. 5 miles ( via two-track road ) southeast of the accident site.
Decimal Latitude: 39.313265
Decimal Longitude: -123.015715
Click the following link and a ‘Google Maps’ satellite image will appear with a ‘RED Balloon’ marking the exact location of DP15…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2%B018'47.8%22N+123%C2%B000'56.6%22W/@39.3156862,-123.0187206,1647m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d39.313265!4d-123.015715
According to radio traffic overheard immediatelly following the accident, a ‘medevac’ was first requested at the ( closer ) DP15 location, but was then CHANGED to the DP19 location much farther away.
The CALFIRE “Green Sheet” makes NO mention of either drop point, or why the closer location was NOT used for the medevac.
The DP19 “Irishmans Flat” clearing is shown ( and labeled as such ) on the topographic map on PDF page 6 of the CALFIRE “Green Sheet” report.
The DP15 “McCreary Glade” location, where the medevac supposedly ( eventually ) took place, is NOT shown.
ALL OPS symbols and location indicators ( including the DP19 and DP15 locations ) have been REMOVED from the topographic map included in CALFIRE’s ‘Green Sheet’ report.
I wonder WHY?
Correction…
I transposed ‘DP15’ and ‘DP19’ in one paragraph above.
DP19 was the site closer to the accident location.
That paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
“According to radio traffic overheard immediatelly following the accident, a ‘medevac’ was first requested at the ( closer ) DP19 location, but was then CHANGED to the DP15 location much farther away.”
Run roh…….a regular person can read through our bs….don’t you just hate that? I don’t. It’s long overdue. Keep hitting the ten ring, wtktt. Haha!
ANOTHER Dozer Operator was killed in CA, this time in a vehicle accident on his way to (en route) the North Fire on the Tahoe NF in northern CA on Tuesday. WTF is going on over there?
Dozer Operator Killed on Way to CA Blaze
A bulldozer operator hired to assist containment efforts on the North Fire died Tuesday in a crash near Blue Canyon on his way to the incident. by Michael McGough; September 12, 2018; The Sacramento Bee.
Sept. 12 — A private contractor hired to assist containment efforts on the North Fire died in a car crash on his way to the incident, Tahoe National Forest said in a news release.
Tony Flores, a 37-year-old employee of Kent Siller Trucking who had worked for the company over 20 years, was a bulldozer operator assigned to the 1,120-acre wildfire burning at Tahoe National Forest, according to the news release.
Flores died in a collision on westbound Interstate 80 near Blue Canyon shortly before 6 a.m. Tuesday, while he was driving to an incident command post at Blue Canyon Airport, Tahoe National Forest officials said.
Flores was a lifelong resident of Yuba City, the news release said, the same city where Kent Siller Trucking is based. It is about 65 miles between Yuba City and Blue Canyon Airport.
He is survived by a wife of 18 years and four children ages 9 through 16, the news release said.
More than 260 fire personnel are currently assigned to the North Fire, which stood at 1,120 acres and 85 percent containment, the U.S. Forest Service reported Tuesday night.
Bulldozers are frequently used in containment efforts for large and fast-spreading wildfires in California.
“This has been an extremely tough fire season for our firefighters both physically and emotionally,” Northern California Interagency Incident Team 1 Commander Curtis Coots said in a statement Tuesday night.
Neil Siller of Kent Siller Trucking told U.S. Forest Service officials that Flores had an “outstanding work ethic,” according to the news release.
The California Highway Patrol and Placer County Sheriff’s Office continue to investigate the cause of the fatal accident.
The North Fire sparked last Monday, and quickly prompted the evacuation and closure of at least six campgrounds and surrounding areas, as well as the closure of two I-80 offramps near Emigrant Gap.
Another Watch Out #19 – Death From Above tragedy from a wildfire in 2013. And we are just now hearing about it ?
Pretty heartrending article of a preventable hazard tree fatality and near miss from the same tree on a wildfire in Oregon
https://www.opb.org/news/article/wildfire-firefighter-death-oregon-risk-forest-management/
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 9, 2018 at 10:41 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Another Watch Out #19 – Death From Above tragedy from a wildfire in 2013.
>> And we are just now hearing about it ?
It wasn’t kept a ‘secret’.
It was, in fact, widely reported at the time it happened by the Associated Press and other Mainstream Media outlets.
I remember reading about it when it happened, but before the report(s) came out.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Pretty heartrending article of a preventable hazard tree fatality and near
>> miss from the same tree on a wildfire in Oregon
>>
>> https://www.opb.org/news/article/wildfire-firefighter-death-oregon-risk-forest-management/
Vary good article. Thank you for sharing.
Funny thing about the article, though, is that one moment it says the the ‘U.S. Forest Service’ declined to comment or be interviewed for the article… and then the next moment it is including ‘comments about the article’ from officials at the ‘U.S. Forest Service’.
And not just any ‘officials at the U.S. Forest Service.
One of the comments included is from the current CHIEF of the entire friggn’ agency., Victoria Christansen herself.
From the article…
———————————————————————————————-
The Forest Service says too many wildland firefighters are exposed to hazards on the fire line and that it must change its ways.
———————————————————————————————-
And then… this IMPORTANT comment from the current CHIEF of ‘U.S. Forestry’…
———————————————————————————————-
“You can get me all riled up here,” said Vicki Christiansen, interim chief of the U.S. Forest Service. “To have to go to one more funeral of one of our own who was taking action when what they were doing had low probability of making any difference, that’s what we call unnecessary exposure. And I’ll say that’s unnecessary loss of life.”
———————————————————————————————
Victoria became the CHIEF of U.S. Forestry earlier this year after Tony Tooke resigned because of allegations against him of sexual misconduct…
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Vicki Christiansen selected interim Forest Service Chief
Published: 10:25 a.m. MST March 9, 2018
https://wildfiretoday.com/2018/03/09/vicki-christiansen-selected-interim-forest-service-chief/
From that article…
————————————————————————————————–
Amid reports of widespread sexual harassment and misconduct within the Forest Service, and especially among firefighters, a woman will now lead the agency. Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue has selected Victoria (Vicki) Christiansen to be the interim Chief of the Forest Service. She replaces Tony Tooke who suddenly resigned March 7 after allegations of sexual misconduct were aired on the PBS program NewsHour.
—————————————————————————————————
** SIDESTORY
There is actually a strange connection here between the FLA investigation into John Hammack’s death in Oregon, on August 1, 2013, and the SAIT investigation into the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots just a month before that, on June 30, 2013.
One of the official FLA ( Facilitated Learning Analysis ) investigation team members for the John Hammack fatality was ( drumroll, please )…
Steve Holdsambeck.
At that time ( August of 2013 ), Holdsambeck was the top-level Firefighter Safety Program Manager for the U.S. Forest Service – Intermountain Region.
Holdsambeck was never officially a member of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire SAIT… but emails obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA prove that Holdsambeck was being ‘CC’ed by Yarnell SAIT leader Mike Dudley on all the critical aspects of the Yarnell SAIT investigation, and there were many email responses from Holdsambeck back to Dudley ‘advising’ Dudley on how to proceed with the Yarnell Hill investigation.
So it’s worth noting that at the SAME TIME Holdsambeck was officially investigating the death of John Hammack, he was ALSO acting as a go-to ‘consultant’ for Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and others on the Arizona Forestry contracted Yarnell Hill Fire SAIT investigation.
Steve Holdsambeck was the first person Mike Dudley consulted with when Dudley received the emails from other Hotshot Superintendents saying they could prove that Eric Marsh had been exhibiting poor and/or risky decision making out in the field for some time prior to the Yarnell tragedy.
Steve Holdsambeck is the one who emailed Mike Dudley back and advised him…
“Obviously you need to be CAREFUL how you respond to this”.
Holdsambeck then went on to give Mike Dudley TWO different ‘options’ for how to respond to this incoming information about Eric Marsh’s pre-Yarnell fireline behavior but BOTH of those ‘options’ were REDACTED from the email and ‘U.S. Forestry’ claimed it was because of the ‘Deliberative Process Privilege’ FOIA exemption.
Here is just one of those exchanges between Mike Dudley and Steve Holdsambeck…
NOTE: This email from Steve Holdsambeck to Mike Dudley was sent on August 5, 2013, just 4 days after John Hammack was killed and while Holdsambeck was now officially investigating John Hammack’s death…
Location in original FOIA-992 PDF images-only document: PDF page 668
===============================================================================================
From: Holdsambeck, Steve -FS
Sent: 5 Aug 2013 17:01:35 +0000 ( 11:01 AM )
To: Dudley, Mike -FS
Cc: Draeger, Randy -FS;Wilson, Richa -FS; Tom Zimmerman
Subject: Re: Jerry Payne?
Obviously you need to be careful how you respond to this.
My advice would be somewhere between these two options:
( (b)(5), Deliberative Process Privilege )
( THE REST OF THE BODY OF THIS EMAIL HAS BEEN REDACTED )
( ABOUT 6 OR 7 LINES OF TEXT TOTAL HAVE BEEN REDACTED )
iPad mail
Steve Holdsambeck
Firefighter Safety Program Manager
U.S. Forest Service – Intermountain Region
324 25th St – Suite 4060
Ogden, UT 84401 cell: xxx.xxx.7258
( Attachment )
( Original “Look who dropped me a note” email from Mike Dudley with )
( Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent David Provencio’s original email is )
( included here in this email response from Steve Holdsambeck back )
( to Mike Dudley )
==============================================================================================
Obviously one of Steve Holdsambeck’s ( redacted ) ‘recommendations’ to Mike Dudley regarding the incoming evidence of prior ‘risky’ fireline decisions by Eric Marsh was something along the lines of…
“Don’t even go there.”
Because they ( Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the rest of the SAIT ) didn’t.
They just ignored the ‘evidence’ they were receiving and did NOT follow-up on any of it.
They didn’t even forward the evidence that WAS already supplied to the SAIT to their own SAIT ‘Human Factors’ Lead Investigator… Brad Mayhew.
WTKTT,
Thank you for posting this and commenting on the article. The deceit and manipulation of the truth never cease and the same players keep reappearing.
Definitely check out this newly released (August 31, 2018) video clip titled “Only the braves real life yarnell hill” by LLOYD PRIME.
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JEDk_5UEVc )
This was taken at/around the same time as the alleged “Helmet Cam” video by PNF Hubbard when you hear the A/G radio conversations between AA and OPS Abel but none of the PNF WFs ….
HOWEVER, this one has some very significant additional visual information in it.
It reveals a lot more active fire behavior in the background in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor when he zooms in several times.
It reveals TWO red Municipal Fire Type 6 Engines exiting (at about 3:15 and 4:00) after the Peeples Valley FD Water Tender. followed by the BRHS buggy “B” as a Prescott FD pickup with camper shell attempts to enter against the oncoming traffic coming out.
Hopefully, someone like WTKTT will be able to identify one or both of these Type 6 Municipal Fire Department Type 6 Engines as they pass by the one taking the video.
Robert the Second,
Just viewed this video-thank you.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on September 1, 2018 at 9:49 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Definitely check out this newly released (August 31, 2018) video
>> clip titled “Only the braves real life yarnell hill” by LLOYD PRIME.
>> ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JEDk_5UEVc )
Thank you for the link to the new video.
I think it’s worth noting that even now, 5 years out, people are still compelled to take a look at the REAL evidence instead of just believing the bullshit that the ‘Only The Brave’ movie slings.
Thus the TITLE of this person’s new video: “Only the braves REAL LIFE yarnell hill”.
It proves that the incident really has risen to the level of ‘Historic National Tragedy’ and that people really are STILL interested in the TRUTH about what is ( so far, anyway ) the greatest tactical blunder in the history of wildland firefighting.
That being said… it’s also worth noting that there is NOTHING NEW about this recently posted YouTube video.
It is nothing more than a compliation of 4 ( FOUR ) existing videos taken in Yarnell on June 30, 2013, by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd.
YouTube Video Title: “Only the braves real life yarnell hill”
Published: August 31, 2018
Published By YouTube User: Lloyd Prime
Background Song: Final Moments
Artist: Joseph Trapanese
Licensed to YouTube by: UMG (on behalf of Varese); ASCAP, and 1 Music Rights Societies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JEDk_5UEVc
Video clips contained in this (new) YouTube composite video…
* +0:00 through +2:26
Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00261 video.
It was taken while OPS1 Todd Abel was on his second recon flight around the Yarnell Hill Fire aboard Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’. That recon flight left the ground at exactly 2:00 PM and lasted for 30 minutes, landing at 2:30 PM. The ‘clip’ from Hulburd’s M2U00261 video used in this new YouTube video actually begins at the +25 second mark in the original Hulburd video ( and is missing those first 25 seconds of video/audio in the original ). The rest of Hulburd’s original M2U00261 video is then included in full, with nothing else ‘missing’.
* +2:27 through +2:54
Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00262 video.
Shot from the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot at the end of the paved part of Shrine Road.
* +2:54 through +3:22
Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00263 video.
Shows vehicles exiting from the Shrine Road Youth Camp area.
* +3:24 through the end of the video at +4:31
Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00264 video.
Shows Paul musser on foot at the Shrine parking lot, Tony Sciacca leaving the area in his white-with-red-stripes PNF pickup with camper back, and then more vehicles emerging from the Shrine Road Youth Camp area.
** NOTE: THE ACTUAL START TIME FOR AARON HULBURD’S M2U00264 VIDEO…
At the very end of Hulburd’s M2U00264 video… we see and hear Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown pull up to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot in their Polaris Ranger UTV.
According to the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data… the exact time of that arrival at that spot was 1637 ( 4:37 PM )… just 2 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was going to hit the radio.
The M2U0064 video is 3 minutes and 37 seconds long.
So that makes the actual START time for Aaron Hulburd’s M2U0064 video right around 1633.23 ( 4:33.23 PM ) ( 1637 minus 3:37 ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> This was taken at/around the same time as the alleged “Helmet Cam” video
>> by PNF Hubbard when you hear the A/G radio conversations between AA and
>> OPS Abel but none of the PNF WFs ….
Yes. It was taken ‘around the same time’ as Aaron Hulburd shot his other videos… because the video clips ARE the same ones shot by Aaron Hulburd himself.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> HOWEVER, this one has some very significant additional visual
>> information in it.
>>
>> It reveals a lot more active fire behavior in the background in
>> the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor when he zooms in several times.
Nope.
It reveals no more ‘additional visual information’ than what has been there since these Aaron Hulburd videos were first made public.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It reveals TWO red Municipal Fire Type 6 Engines exiting (at about 3:15 and 4:00)
>> after the Peeples Valley FD Water Tender.
Your times are not right. The time for these original Aaron Hulburd ‘vehicles exiting the Shrine area’ video clips are later than that and can be verified using Blue Ridge GPS tracking information.
The actual START time for Aaron Hulburd’s M2U0064 video ( which is the last video clip in this new YouTube composite video ) was right around 1633.23 ( 4:33.23 PM ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> followed by the BRHS buggy “B” as a Prescott FD pickup with camper
>> shell attempts to enter against the oncoming traffic coming out.
That ‘Prescott FD pickup with camper shell’ was being driven by Safety Officer Tony Sciacca that day. We see him leave his parking spot at the St. Joseph Shrine and drive WEST a little bit over to where Jason Clawson is standing at the end of the paved part of Shrine Road. He stops there. Jason Clawson walks up to the side of Sciacca’s vehicle and ( supposedly ) speaks with him. Other headlights are now coming out, and the first engine ( Central Yavapai Engine E-59 ) appears to stop and speak with Sciacca in his pickup. The engine continues east, and then Sciacca turns his pickup around and exits the area, heading EAST on Shrine Road back to Highway 89.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Hopefully, someone like WTKTT will be able to identify
>> one or both of these Type 6 Municipal Fire Department Type 6
>> Engines as they pass by the one taking the video.
The ‘one taking the video’ was Aaron Hulburd himself.
Again… these are HIS ACTUAL VIDEOS in this ( new ) composite YouTube clip.
As for which ‘engines’ those are… that was determined long ago.
Central Yavapai Engine E-59
License Plate on front says “CEY P59”
License Plate on rear ( as seen in other photos of same engine ) says “G-682DV”
Sun City West Fire Engine
Says “Brush 103” on the side.
WTKTT,
Thank you for the enlightenment. This video was NEW to me and hopefully, to many others as well.
What software are you using to read the details on the license plates and door panels?
WTKTT:
What was new for me about this video is the sight of flames above the vehicles in the Shrine/Sesame area.
I had seen the smoke in other videos but not the flames.
**
** CAL FIRE NOW ADMITS MATTHEW BURCHETT WAS KILLED
** AS A RESULT OF A VLAT RETARDANT DROP
Sometime late yesterday, CAL FIRE finally admitted that Draper City Fire Fighter Matthew Burchett was actually killed as a result of debris from a VLAT drop.
Here is the page that now contains CAL FIRE’s “Blue Sheet” describing the incident…
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Ranch Fire Tree Strike Fatality (2018)
Incident Date: 8/13/2018
State: California
Incident Type: ( No entry )
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=cdfc0a5a-885b-45c7-81e0-0e09479a5cad
The newly published “Blue Sheet” is this file, on that page…
“Blue Sheet-18-CA-MEU-008674 Mendocino Complex Fatality.pd” – Uploaded – 08-18-2018
NOTE: This ‘Blue Sheet’ only appeared in public yesterday, August 18, 2018, but the date on the ‘Blue Sheet’ itself has been ‘back dated’ to August 13, 2018, 5 days ago and the day Burchett actually died.
CAL FIRE “Blue Sheets” are required ( by law ) to be produced within 12 hours of an incident and the just-released “Blue Sheet” itself even SAYS that in its first paragraph.
But this “Blue Sheet” took 5 ( FIVE ) days before it finally appeared.
Here is what is contained in the now-published “Blue Sheet”…
—————————————————————————————
Preliminary Summary Report of Serious or Near Serious
CAL FIRE Injuries, Illnesses and Accidents
BLUE SHEET
Preliminary Summary Report of Serious or Near Serious
CAL FIRE Injuries, Illnesses and Accidents
This Preliminary Summary Report is intended as an aid in accident prevention, and to provide factual information from the first 12 hours of the accident review. To that end, it is published and distributed within a short time frame. Information contained within may be subject to revision as further investigation is conducted, and other reports and/or documents are received.
Firefighter Injuries and Fatality
August 13, 2018
Mendocino Complex-Ranch Fire
18-CA-MEU-008674
18-CA-MEU-009504
California Northern Region
SUMMARY
On August 13, 2018 at approximately 5:25 PM, a Very Large Air Tanker (VLAT) completed a retardant drop along Division ‘C’ of the Mendocino Complex Fire in Mendocino County, California. Following the drop, three firefighters suffered minor injuries and one firefighter suffered fatal injuries after being struck by falling tree debris.
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR IMMEDIATE CORRECTIVE ACTIONS
Fire Line personnel must remain clear from areas being impacted by aircraft retardant/water drops with overhead hazards.
—————————————————————————————
Ah… okay… so it was Matthew Burchett’s OWN FAULT he was killed by a VLAT DROP.
Gee… thanks, CAL FIRE. I feel so much better about it now.
Let’s see the DETAILS, fellas.
According to California law… since you wasted 5 days just putting out the “Blue Sheet”… you now only have 48 more hours to put out the detailed “Green Sheet”.
BTW: Matthew Burchett’s funeral is TOMORROW, back in Draper City, Utah.
The news is also now appearing on Twitter feeds…
https://twitter.com/ai6yrham/status/1031209928852004865
————————————————————————————————
AI6YR @ai6yrham
AI6YR Retweeted Wildfire Today
Burchett fatality on #RanchFire was a result of being too close to VLAT drop on #MendocinoComplexFire, per CALFIRE.
————————————————————————————————
Wildfire Today ( Bill Gabbert’s Twitter feed )…
https://twitter.com/wildfiretoday/status/1031172593674579968
————————————————————————————————–
Wildfire Today @wildfiretoday
6:34 AM – 19 Aug 2018
CAL FIRE: On 8/13/2018 a Very Large Air Tanker dropped retardant on the Mendocino Complex Fire in Calif. Following the drop, 3 firefighters suffered minor injuries and 1, Batt. Chief Matthew Burchett, was killed after being struck by falling tree debris.
—————————————————————————————————–
NOTE: Bill Gabbert posted a Tweet about the new information this morning, but there is no official update to his regular ‘Wildfire Today’ site yet.
Bringing this up out of the weeds. I posted this on August 17th
Here are some of the details from those on the same fire where the Draper FF was killed and the others were injured, the Mendocino Complex.
It was “shift change” when the day shift comes off the line and the night shift comes on to the line to work. Their Divison was planning for a Firing Operation which included air support to pretreat the firelines with retardent using the way-too-expensive and way-too-dangerous VLATs (Very Large Air tankers).
They were in a heavy fuel type of large trees, needing a heavy coverage level.
Air Attack (AA) called the Divison Supervisor (DIVS) to warn him/her about the incoming VLAT drops. DIVS asked for ten minutes to warn everyone, then called AA and gave them the “all cleared to drop” message.
The Engines (including Draper FD) and a nearby Hot Shot Crew were now supposedly clear of the planned VLAT drop zone(s), which have to be quite a distance due to the huge quantity of retardent onboard and the length of their drops.
On the drops, they noticed that the VLAT was coming in very low, at about 300′ to 400′ Above Ground Level (AGL). On the second drop that eventually hit them, they noticed that the VLAT was much lower than the previous drops.
The drop extended for about one-half to three-quarters of a mile. This second drop uprooted a large tree that then hit the Draper FD Engine with several FFs sitting inside, including Matthew Burchett.
The Draper Engine FFs called a MAYDAY saying FFs were injured. The uninjured Draper Engine FFs provided immediate medical care as they could. Neighboring Resources went to the scene and some had to use extrication equipment to get to Burchett and some of the injured FFs.
The “Official Word” about this was that it was a “random accident” and not a tree strike or damage from a retardant drop.
The supervisory overhead held a debriefing and told all the WF’s and FFs involved that they were not allowed to talk about the incident and would require them to “sign a waiver on non-disclosure.”
Most, if not all the those involved in the incident refused to sign the non-dislosure waiver. Obviously, the IM/Overhead were pissed.
Many of those WFs and FFs involved said it was pretty f**Ked up and they were gonna need/want some Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM) to deal with all of this.
Several of them were demobbed and sent back to their home units and told to take three days off instead of the usual two days off.
In light of the inordinate number of recent WFs and FFs deaths in CA in the past few weeks, the word is that the WFs and FFs on the firelines are very distrustful of CDF in particular AND of the supervisory direction they are receiving regarding tactical fireline assignments, especially with the unprecedented, extreme fire behavior witnessed and experienced on the fatal Carr Fire near Redding, CA.
In other words, there will be a lot more independent or at least semi-independent actions occurring or there will be a lot of time not engaging or just hanging out in safe areas and Safety Zones.
A lot of FFs and WFs are asking the question: WTF is going on? Signs of the times or what?
>> On August 20, 2018 at 8:52 am, Robert the Second ( RTS ) wrote…
>>
>> Bringing this up out of the weeds. I posted this on August 17th
Yes. I did see that ( below ). Posted a full day before CAL FIRE owned up to how Matthew Burchett really died.
Thank you for those details, most of which are still ‘missing’ from anything CAL FIRE has released.
>> On August 17, 2018 at 11:56 am, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> The supervisory overhead held a debriefing and told all
>> the WF’s and FFs involved that they were not allowed to talk
>> about the incident and would require them
>> to “sign a waiver on non-disclosure.”
That is actually straight out of CAL FIRE’s IIPP ( Injury and Illness Prevention Program ) SART ( Special Accident Review Team ) playbook… which is sitting at the following PUBLIC URL on CAL FIRE’s website…
CAL FIRE’S ACTUAL ‘SERIOUS ACCIDENT REVIEW TEAM’ ( SART ) PROCEDURE MANUAL…
http://calfireweb.fire.ca.gov/library/handbooks/1700/SARTProcedureManual.pdf
From that CAL FIRE SART ‘playbook’…
——————————————————————————-
On PDF page 9 ( SART INCIDENT COMMANDER RESPONSIBILITIES )…
In confidence, gather the names and contact information of participants and witnesses and obtain witness written statements and photographs. Inform the witness of the confidential nature of the SART process.
– Establish a preliminary witness list of individuals involved in, or who may have information pertaining to, the accident.
– Remind witnesses and involved persons not to discuss the incident amongst themselves or with the media.
– Witnesses and involved persons may contact one family member with their status and location, but they are not to discuss the incident details.
On PDF page 12 ( SART TEAM LEADER RESPONSIBILITIES )…
– Ensure all team members understand the purpose of a SART and regard all gathered information as confidential.
– Have each team member and WITNESS read and sign the SART Confidentiality Agreement
On PDF page 15 ( SART LEAD INVESTIGATOR RESPONSIBILITIES )…
The SART Lead Investigator is a CAL FIRE Peace Officer responsible for scene security, evidence collection and coordinating/conducting interviews of witnesses. The Lead Investigator works directly for the Team Leader.
Responsibilities
– Gather all facts and conduct interview in confidence.
– Ensure all witnesses are informed of the purpose of a SART and affirm the confidential nature of the SART process.
– Have each witness read and sign the SART Confidentiality Agreement.
– Conduct all witness interviews in plain clothes.
——————————————————————————-
NOTE: While most of the Policies and Forms and Handbooks for CAL FIRE’s own ‘Injury and Illness Prevention Program’ ( IIPP ) are ( as they should be ) all PUBLIC documents, including the above ‘SART Procedures Manual’ itself… the mysterious “SART Confidentiality Agreement” form mentioned over and over again in the SART ‘playbook’ is NOT a public document.
There is no place on the CAL FIRE documents server where this ‘SART Confidentiality Agreement’ can be downloaded without some kind of special ‘log in’.
It’s contents remain a ‘secret’, even from Calfornia taxpayers.
Also notice this part up above, which ( apparently ) gives CAL FIRE SART investigators permission to treat witnesses ( and any other ‘involved persons’ ) as if they are ‘under arrest’, or something, and limit their contact with the outside world…
You are ( apparently ) “only allowed one phone call”… just like you are “under arrest”, or something… and even then… if you start to say something about the incident they don’t want you saying they will rip the phone out of your hands like you are being held hostage in some third-world country…
——————————————————————————
Witnesses and involved persons may contact one family member with their status and location, but they are not to discuss the incident details
——————————————————————————
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Many of those WFs and FFs involved said it was pretty f**Ked
>> up and they were gonna need/want some Critical Incident
>> Stress Management (CISM) to deal with all of this.
Hang on to your hat…
The CAL FIRE ‘SART Procedures Manual’ actually ALLOWS the CAL FIRE investigators to WITHHOLD CISM help from employees who need it until CAL FIRE gets what THEY want out of them.
Notice that the CAL FIRE SART ‘playbook’ specifically says that NO ‘Critical Incident Stress Management’ ( CISM ) debriefings and/or defusings shall take place BEFORE the ‘involved personnel’ have been questioned by CAL FIRE investigators… and it also says CAL FIRE can withhold CISM debriefings for up to 72 hours, regardless of how critical it might be to the health of the employees involved.
Way to care about the health and well-being of your employees ( not ).
From PDF page 5 of the official CAL FIRE ‘SART Procedures Manual’…
—————————————————————————–
CRITICAL INCIDENT STRESS MANAGEMENT (CISM)
No Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM) shall take place until a consultation has occurred between the Lead Investigator and the CISM Team Leader. The CISM Team Leader shall identify areas of critical need and discuss with the SART Team Leader and Lead Investigator as expeditiously as possible.
No group discussion.
CISM can be conducted on an individual basis if necessary versus a group basis. Group debriefings prior to being interviewed can compromise the witness information.
CISM debriefings/defusing should not take place prior to the involved personnel being questioned by the Investigators without permission from the Team Leader. CISM policy says debriefing can be withheld for up to 72 hours (Handbook 1865).
—————————————————————————–
The above excerpt from CAL FIRE’s own ‘SART Procedures Manual’ is not only ALLOWING, but basically REQUIRING the investigators to actually WITHHOLD MEDICAL TREAMENT ( CISM ) from employees involved in an accident in one of CAL FIRE’s workplaces.
Not good.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Most, if not all the those involved in the incident refused
>> to sign the non-dislosure waiver.
Good for them.
I’d love to see CAL FIRE try and put some firefighters I know in a room, tell them they are only allowed one phone call ( and what they are allowed to say even during that one call ), and then withhold CISM from them while they keep shoving documents under their noses telling them they MUST sign them.
Some firefighters I know would make them EAT the documents.
F. U. C. K. C. A. L. F. I. R. E
For any of you firefighters out that aren’t aware of your rights, simply ask the SART rep if you are being detained. If the answer is no, walk away. Call whomever (& however many)the fuck you want to let them know you’re OK. Seek competent legal counsel if necessary.
Most I know, well…they would regret the strongarm approach. Way to add to the trauma, you dumbasses.
My pending retirement decision is getting easier each day.
All I can say is what the F*** over.
Well…as a shade tree lawyer I just have to weigh in on this one. Law enforcement officers are allowed to “detain” someone for “brief and cursory” questioning when “reasonable” suspicion exists that a crime was committed, but falls short of “probable cause” and that person being questioned may have been involved in the commission of said crime or be a witness.
Under those circumstances, that person isn’t free to leave, but neither are they under arrest. And what is “reasonable” will depend on the circumstances surrounding the contact, time and distance for example are two variables that may make a detention of a few hours reasonable, or may make a detention of more than a few minutes unreasonable.
But the bottom line for me, is that there is one predicate fact must be present for any of that to even start to happen. The person who is responsible for making any detention much less an arrest, have statutory “police powers” that include the authority to place someone “in custody” because they have “arrest authority.”
I mean…our Founding Father’s put that one right up there as Number Four (4) on their biggest bitches about King George and the Redcoats while they made sure that kind of thing doesn’t happen in our Republic, and if it does, those who engage in it can be charged with crimes like “false imprisonment” and “kidnapping” with serious civil and criminal penalties.
I seriously doubt any of the CALFIRE investigators even have police powers since they are without doubt following the lead of the USFS and by doing so they are keeping trained criminal investigators as far away from those types of investigations as they can to make it easier to predetermine the outcome they want and then go looking for select facts to support their position, as RTS always writes.
So…the correct question to ask anyone who ever tells you something like is being alleged here is, “Am I free to leave” or “Am I under arrest.”
And as far as being put into a room and told you have to talk to investigators much less sign any documents, please see Number Five (5) on the biggest bitch list aptly named, the “Constitutional Amendments .”
This whole thing just sounds plain crazy to me and it looks like CALFIRE is playing word games while they bluff their way in trying to achieve their goals, by writing things like “should” in their regulations, but it is so easy for the official on the scene to editorialize that and twist it into something like, “you have to.”
All I can say, is that if that ever happens to you, start writing down names, times, exact quotes, and identifying others who are present and may be witnesses to their unconstitutional and criminal acts.
Unfortunately for CALFIRE employees, they are probably in more danger of these, dare I say it, “Gestapo Tactics”, because of their “conditions of employment” as so many were threatened with after the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And FYI. I haven’t gone away on my next big adventure…yet. I have just been waiting for the serious discussions about WF deaths and serious injuries to die down before I publish my “Last Chapter” (chapter of what, I still can’t say) and catch up on my backlog of comments.
In the meantime, OMGosh…it looks like I owe not only Joy, but the entire nation of Serbia an apology. That whole 6.5 Grendel thing might be the way to go after all? It’s sure getting a lot of buzz.
I told you it is the future Gary
thank you for the apology
Oh…and I didn’t make it clear that the buzz is coming from our military. Apparently the new Russian body armor can stop the .556 from our family of what has been nicknamed The Black Rifle.
And on top of that, some think the M16 and it’s variations have a fatal flaw from their inception becuase they the gases from the exploding round to cycle the bolt so now they want one that is piston driven.
I give up. I am just going to sit it out while everybody else gets it figured out, but I do still think they should hire Joy..
And technically, I don’t owe the apology to the entire nation of Serbia, just their military because they have been leading the way on a bigger, heavier, more powerful and lethal intermediate caliber, drumroll please…the 6.5 Grendel!
I’m glad we had this little chat. Thank you.
…..It’s the future for the firearms industry to sell more rifles!!! Lmao!
6.5 Grendel? Haha! There’s NOTHING new under the sun. The Swedes had this figured out in………….oh……..about 1891. Yep 1891. Grendels and Creedmoors? Lmao, great way to sell more firearms and ammo is about the extent of it. People are so funny.
Reply to Gary Olson post on September 1, 2018 at 3:11 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> The person who is responsible for making
>> any detention much less an arrest,
>> ( must ) have statutory “police powers” that
>> include the authority to place someone
>> “in custody” because they have “arrest authority.”
>>
>> I seriously doubt any of the CALFIRE investigators
>> even have police powers
In CALFIRE’s own “Special Accident Review Team” ( SART ) ‘Playbook’… there are sections that establish the minimum qualifications for each ‘member of the team’.
As it turns out… there actually is ONE person ( and ONLY one person ) who is REQUIRED to be a certified “Peace Officer” and have valid, up-to-date POST ( Peace Officer Training and Standards ) certification.
And that ONE person is ( drumroll, please ), the SART “Lead Investigator”.
** CALFIRE’S ACTUAL ‘SERIOUS ACCIDENT
** REVIEW TEAM’ ( SART ) PROCEDURE MANUAL…
http://calfireweb.fire.ca.gov/library/handbooks/1700/SARTProcedureManual.pdf
From PDF page 15 of that CALFIRE SART ‘Playbook’…
———————————————————-
LEAD INVESTIGATOR
The SART Lead Investigator is a CAL FIRE Peace Officer responsible for scene security, evidence collection and coordinating/conducting interviews of witnesses. The Lead Investigator works directly for the Team Leader. Due to the amount of writing, the majority of the Draft
The Confidential SART Final Review Report will be written by the Lead Investigator.
* Qualifications
– POST certified Peace Officer. ( POST stands for “Peace Officer Standards and Training” )
– A minimum of two years’ experience as a Peace Officer.
– Battalion Chief or above.
– Participation in at least two SART assignments as an Investigator (assistant).
– Participation in at least one SART assignment as a Lead Investigator (trainee).
– Certification from a CAL FIRE SART workshop.
* Responsibilities
– Gather all facts and conduct interview in confidence.
– Ensure all witnesses are informed of the purpose of a SART and affirm the confidential nature of the SART process.
– Have each witness read and sign the SART Confidentiality Agreement.
– Conduct all witness interviews in plain clothes.
– Determine jurisdiction of incident and any allied agency involvement.
– Overall photos including aerial if possible
– Ensure SART-71 is utilized for all witness statements.
– Establish number, condition and location of victim(s).
– Establish number and location of witnesses.
– Determine number of Investigators and level of expertise required
– Determine any specialized equipment needs
– Establish site security protocol
– Develop a Site Entry Plan jointly with the Safety Representative for team safety
– Supervise and/or conduct investigative activities
– Interviews
– Fire investigation in area
– Scene processing and proper documentation
– Evidence collection, security and management – Chain of custody
– Liaison with cooperating allied agencies (Sheriff’s Department, Coroner’s Office, CHP, NWCG, Federal Cooperators, MTDC, Etc.)
– Supervise the writing of the Sequence of Events.
– Memorialize sequence of events, findings, causal factors, and contributory factors.
– Take custody of all documentation and evidence at conclusion of assignment.
– Log evidence into secure location.
—————————————————————
CALFIRE actually runs its OWN California-certified “Peace Officer Training Program”.
The way it basically works ( according to CALFIRE’s own POST certification process ) is that CALFIRE sends you out to a community college or some other place to get the absolute BASIC ‘POST’ training first… like which end of the gun the bullet comes out of and why you can’t ‘arrest’ your mother-in-law when you get your badge just because she is ‘annoying’ you.
Once you have taken those basic-basic POST classes… you move on to CALFIRE’s own ‘CDF POST Academy’ where the “Peacer Officer” training gets into how to conduct arson investigations… which is the PRIMARY reason for CALFIRE running its OWN ‘POST’ Academy ( internally ).
So the SART ‘Playbook’ does, in fact, go out its way to make sure their ‘Lead Investigator’ has a ‘badge’ hidden in his pocket…
…but that ‘Lead Investigator’ is the ONLY one on the entire SART team that the ‘Playbook’ says is required to have “Peace Officer” certification.
Correction for above.
Should have been ‘non-gender specific’…
“So the SART ‘Playbook’ does, in fact, go out of its way to make sure their ‘Lead Investigator’ has a ‘badge’ hidden in his/her pocket.”
Hmmmmmmm, I’m not quite sure what to think about that? My initial reaction is that is a good thing? And therefore they are ahead of the USFS and other federal agencies in how they conduct wildfire investigations?
But I guess it is like so many things and depends on the specifics and variables?
The Federal Law Enforcement Training Center does (or did) offer a Wildland Fire Investigators Course (which I took in mid 1980’s) that is two weeks long and does even start their own arson wildfire on FLETC grounds in connection with the BATF&E explosisive training to investigate because FLETC was build on the thousands of acres that was a Naval Air Station during WWII.
But I am not aware of any requirements the USFS or other federal agencies have that requires that training for anyone on their SAIT’s?
And simply getting that training does not grant anyone “police powers” unless you complete either the “Police Training Program” or “Criminal Investigators Training Program” (or both of them like I did) and are employed by a federal agency who has statutory police powers and can administer the oath of office to that person and of course give them a badge and a gun to go with it.
I’m not quite sure what all of that means, except it sounds like.a CALFIRE has the power to enforce an “investigative detention” and subsequently arrest a suspect and take then into custody, which is a good thing? I guess?
There is no doubt in my mind however, that CALFIRE is a BIG DOG or in keeping with my primate family analogies…they are a big gorilla?
Maybe not an 800 pound Mountain Siverback Mountain Gorilla like the USFS, but a gorilla nevertheless…at least in the Great State of California.
Yep…I have thought about it some more, CALFIRE is light years ahead of how the USFS and other federal agencies conduct wildland fire investigations.
Here is a curious fact for you to analyze that I have never been able to make any sense out of. In 1994, I was working as a Suoervisory Criminal Investigator, (which was my official job description) as the Assistant Special Agent-In-Charge (which was my working title) for the BLM Arizona State Office when the South Canyon Fire killed 9 Prineville Hotshots, two helitack, and three smokejumpers on Storm King Mountain in Colorado.
I was a certified Wildland Fire Investigator and I has successfully conducted several arson fires by then and I had even arrested suspects and had given several of those responsible really big bills to pay for the fires they had started including corporations, the Boy Scouts Of America and the Mormon Church.
The powers that be selected Les Rosenkrace, who was my BLM State Director at the time to be the team leader for that SAIT and he picked the rest of his team.
But that time in my career I had had a lot of law enforcement training which included the Arizona POST academy training before I had become a deputy sheriff. and a tremendous amount of experience in both conducting investigations, interviews and writing reports.
Les was a great state director and a good man and he ended his career as the Director of the National Interagency Fire Center (NIFC) in Boise, in part because he had come up through the ranks as a highly respected former BLM smokejumper.
I actually thought at the time he should have taken me with him, and I really thought he might for a while. But he didn’t include me, or any one else who was trained to conduct investigations, interview witnesses, interrogate suspects or conduct a Wildland Fire Investigation.
I thought that was not only a mistake and an oversight, but a very odd thing to do. And I still do once I saw them do the very same thing on disaster fire after disaster fire culminating with how they handled the investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I won’t say the federal system of conducting disaster fire investigations is broken, because I don’t think something can break…that was never working in the first place.
I know for a fact that I really bother the powers that be because I am here freely expressing my professional opinions on this thread. The powers that be rely on dismissing and discrediting their critics, no matter how right those critics are. It is so easy to dismiss someone like WTKTT, no matter how right he is.
But I really don’t think they can dismiss me, I floated to the top of their turd bowl. They made me and then they kept promoting me, promoting me and promoting me some more and awarding me Quality Step Increase after Quality Step Increase (4 in total) and each one of them could be worth as much as a couple hundred grand over my life time earnings and maybe even more since they followed me into retirement and I still seem to be pretty damn healthy if you take away my on the job injuries, which make me a little bit infirm, but I dont think they are going to kill me any time soon.
How can they possibly discredit or disavow me? I am them. They created me in their image. That is why I keep banging away at my street creds on this thread.
I don’t do it to brag (well maybe I do a little bit), I do it to give legitimacy to our group. If I agree with WTKTT, he is able to piggy back off my street creds and that makes him credible when I voice for him. And I know that really gives them a pain in their asses, because they are asses..
Of course the same thing is true for Fred, Bob and everyone else here who are subject matter experts and stands behind their real name and verifiable street creds..
All of us are them, not just some loony group of conspiracy nut jobs. Hahahahahaha MOFOES! YOU LOSE!
That should have been “vouch” for WTKTT, and there are a few other auto correct mistakes, but you will probably still be able to get the gist of what I was trying to say.
Whoops,
I don’t want anyone to interpret anything I wrote as an endorsement in any way of anything CALFIRE is doing by taking WF personnel into a room and pressuring them in any way by use of cohersion, intimidation, misuse of cleverly written policies, lying and especially doing anything under color of law because one of those sorry people has a badge in his back pocket.
The whole thing sounds OUTRAGEOUS by withholding or the threat of withholding what is really medical treatment through the threat of using the carrot and the club in an attempt to take advantage of people in traumatic circumstances.
I would suggest that even CALFIRE Personnel take the time they need to gather their thoughts, decompress, and process what they either saw, heard or participated in before trying to give a statement to investigators. Don’t refuse to cooperate, decline to cooperate right at that moment, tell them you may want to consult with an attorney, because you might depending on what happened and what your role was in it and whether President you have legal or civil exposure.
What they are doing in a trick to take advantage of you when you are most vulnerable and easy to manipulate.
So…I am no longer using vulgar words to describe how I feel, so defer to The Woodsman…FUCKCALFIRE
I know from past experiences, you will both do and say things when you are on an adrenaline high that won’t be in your best interests.
Oh…and one more thing. I am not suggesting that you should refuse to cooperate with the investigation, but I am suggesting that when you are under the influence of an adrenaline high, you may not be capable of providing information that is either accurate or has a factual basis.
You may be saying or doing things based on emotions or what you thought you saw or did instead of reality. It is very common for police officers to believe they fired two or three rounds when in fact they emptied a 16 round magazine (extrapolate the relevance of that anology to your own situation).
And that is because under extreme stress, your body goes into a fight or flight mode as your blood pressure goes through the roof, your body severely restricts blood to your extremities in order to provide maximum pressure to your vital organs which means you will experience tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and a serious lack of fine motor skills in addition to a whole bunch of other physiological changes.
And it takes a while to come down off that high and for your body and mind to stabilize. And you should take the time you need to do that before you start talking to anybody about anything.
Matthew Burchett’s funeral began at 11:00 AM this morning, at the Maverick Center Auditorium in West Valley City, Utah.
DURING the service is when the Associated Press ( Utah office ) broke a National News story about CAL FIRE’s ‘Blue Sheet’ report and their admission that Burchett died from debris related to a retardant drop.
The story has been going ‘viral’ all afternoon, and most MSM reports about Burchett’s memorial service have been referencing the AP News story as well.
This evening… it is now hitting the top-level MSM publications, such as the Washington Post…
The Washington Post
Article Title: APNewsBreak: Utah firefighter died after plane made drop
Published ( By the WP Post): August 20 at 8:46 PM
Original articlez; By Don Thompson and Lindsay Whitehurst of the Associated Press.
Original AP publication: 1:00 PM, August 20, 2018
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/apnewsbreak-utah-firefighter-died-after-plane-made-drop/2018/08/20/a6dab7e8-a4db-11e8-ad6f-080770dcddc2_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ebc38891df94
WTKTT, thanks for looking into and posting the details on the CDF feculence
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on August 21, 2018 at 7:37 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, thanks for looking into and posting the details
>> on the CDF feculence
In that section above from the CAL FIRE SART ( Serious Accident Review Team ) Procedures Manual where it is basically REQUIRING the SART investigators to WITHHOLD medical treatment ( CISM ) from employees until the SART has been able to ‘interview’ them… they are claiming the SART investigators are allowed to withhold that CISM support for up to 72 hours.
That ‘claim’ in the SART ‘playbook’ is based on a reference to another CAL FIRE ‘Handbook’.
The ‘Handbook 1865’ that is being referenced in the CAL FIRE SART Procedures Manual is CAL FIRE’s own ‘Critical Incident Stress Management’ Procedures Handbook ( Number 1865 ).
It is sitting at the following PUBLIC URL on CAL FIRE’s public ‘Handbooks’ page…
CAL FIRE Handbook 1865 – Critcial Incident Stress Management
http://calfireweb.fire.ca.gov/library/handbooks/1800/1865.pdf
It actually says that a ‘CISM Debriefing’ can be withheld for up to 10 days ( and not just 72 hours ) following an incident.
There is also a discrepancy regarding ‘defusing’ versus ‘debriefing’.
CAL FIRE’s own CISM Hanbook says a ‘defusing’ SHOULD take place within 8 hours following an incident, but CAL FIRE’s SART Handbook says they SART investigators are ALSO allowed to PREVENT a CISM ‘defusing’ from happening until after they have gotten the interviews they want out of the involved employees.
On PDF page 5 of CAL FIRE’s own CISM Handbook…
———————————————————————————–
CISM DEFUSING EXPECTATIONS 1865.6.1.1
The rules for CISM DEFUSING will include, at a minimum, the following:
A CISM DEFUSING should be conducted immediately after the critical incident, and the ideal period of time is within 8 hours of the critical incident, as well as on the same day.
If it is not possible to hold the CISM DEFUSING within these guidelines, a defusing may occur using the same timeline as a CISD ( Critical Incident Stress DEBRIEFING ), ( which is anywhere from 1 to 10 days following an incident ).
———————————————————————————
But CAL FIRE’s SART Investigation Procedures Manual still says the following about BOTH CISM ‘defusings’ AND ‘debriefings’…
————————————————————————————
CISM debriefings/defusing should NOT take place prior to the involved personnel being questioned by the Investigators.
————————————————————————————-
By the way… ALL of the official Procedure Manuals and Handbooks that establish the RULES for EVERYTHING that CAL FIRE does ( soup to nuts ) are sitting at the following PUBLIC URL…
http://calfireweb.fire.ca.gov/library/handbooks/
Funny how much data on Wildland Fires is not shown to the public and how many I have learned are told to keep quiet.
Ok, NOT FUNNY!
It is wrong.
I wonder about the tree incident death recently if my “gut feeling” is right on…I wonder if the private contractor will tell the truth…or if this will become YH Fire all over again.
Hope not. Let’s grab them by the balls early versus waiting five years. Here we go FOIAs and public records…Thank you to Elizabeth Nowicki for teaching me the regular citizens can do this versus just media and lawyers and such…it will take the citizens to show the truths since some are having to sign papers on the line they won’t talk…but maybe it is time that FFs are not signing off…maybe changes are in the works.
I am growing so weary of the lack of truth being shown on errors made.
LESSONS LEARNED and SAFETY MATTERS!
They put so many in positions that SHOULD NOT be in that position—
Man, if you want to share your story on the tree incident on my page
h t t p s :/ /w w w .yarnellhillfirerevelations.c o m/blog
or come here too but please do not allow it to remain “quiet”…please….We need “positive changes” through “public awareness”
Cathy says it right…”…Court room should never be used as a forum. Same with politicians until you write out all you know. Gives you a clear equation. [I encourage Y O U to be the voice true-to-soul…] empowering people like your self to peacefully reclaim their voice true-to-soul. I’m confident it will be of enormous benefit to you! Peace and freedom, Cathy”
Please listen to this lady above who faced a very horrific story yet today she is healed by telling her story to the world…that is where it begins…
TELL YOUR STORY even if you come to me or someone “anonymous”- I will fact check your data and I can push the facts forward if that helps you heal…it is time…there is NO coincidences… The time is here.
Not being transparent… that is destroying the Fire Industry. People are bailing before their retirement. It is unfair. What do they think is going to happen by telling the truth? Just tell it. No more “CRAP” reports.
Burchett family and loved ones and friends and fellow firefighter-
Please do the FOIAS and public records on this fire. It is important to learn the truth versus what is being glazed and also spread the word for prayer that the private contractor tells the truth.
Amen.
**
** CARR FIRE FATALITIES – GREEN SHEET REPORT
The official CAL FIRE “Green Sheet” report on the Carr Fire entrapments and fatalities was uploaded to the National Park Service’s “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned” website yesterday.
It is FILLED with DETAIL regarding the deaths of 82 year old bulldozer operator Don Ray Smith, 37 year old Redding City Fire Department Inspector Jeremy Stoke, the 3 Marin County ‘hybrid’ firefighters who were burned, and the THREE OTHER private dozer operators who were also almost killed.
Here is the ‘page’ at the WFLLC site where the newly published Carr Fire “Green Sheet” is available for reading/download…
The Wildland Fire Lessons Learnedd Center ( hosted by the National Park Service )
Carr Fire Entrapment Fatalities (2018)
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=1b6e6ede-cd02-4e1e-8a97-cde4bb765b8a
And here is direct link to the PDF “Green Sheet” document itself…
CAL FIRE
Informational Summary Report of Serious or Near Serious Injuries, Illnesses and Accidents
GREEN SHEET
Burn Over Fatalities July 26, 2018
Carr Incident
18-CA-SHU-007808
18-CA-SHU-007962
California Northern Regio
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=a5f0fff2-4435-ee4b-1676-c5e066a313e7&forceDialog=0
CAL FIRE doesn’t include any NAMES in the report ( as usual ).
– Don Ray Smith is only identified in the report as ‘Dozer 1’.
– Jeremy Stoke is only identified in the report as ‘FPI1’ ( Fire Prevention Inspector 1 ).
– The 3 Marin County ‘hybrid’ firefighters who were burned are identified collectively as ‘ENG1’ ( Engine 1 ), and individually as FAE1, FF1 and FF2.
– The 3 OTHER private dozer operators who we only now learn also almost lost their lives in this same ‘burnover’ incident are only identified in the report as ‘Dozer 2’, ‘Dozer 3’ and ‘Dozer 4’.
CAL FIRE doesn’t mention Don Ray Smith’s name, or his age… but all the associated reporting about this “Green Sheet” document are still mis-reporting Smith’s age as 81 years old.
He was even older than that. He was actually 82 years old ( and change ).
Dozer operator Don Ray Smith was born June 3, 1936.
That made him 82 years, 1 month and 11 days old on July 26, 2018, the day he died at the Carr Fire.
As the report indicates… dozer operator Don Ray Smith should NOT have even been on the assignment he was working when he was killed. TWO other dozers had already worked the same ‘line’ earlier in the day and they BOTH indicated that the terrain was too steep to complete that assignment and it was a ‘non-viable’ option. The person who sent Smith out the same dozer line ( and to his eventual death there ) didn’t even know that, and sent Smith out there anyway.
This total breakdown in communications led to Smith’s eventual death.
From PDF page 15 of the report…
Notice all the ‘NOT’s in this list…
————————————————————————————————————
INJURIES/DAMAGES
1. FPI1 suffered fatal traumatic injuries when entrapped in a fire tornado while engaged in community protection operations.
2. Dozer 1 operator suffered fatal thermal injuries. The operator’s fire shelter was ( NOT used and ) located behind the dozer’s seat and the fire curtains were NOT deployed.
3. Dozer 3 operator suffered from smoke inhalation and glass in his eyes. Dozer 3 operator did NOT have eye protection.
4. Dozer 4 operator suffered burns to his hands, neck and back. Dozer 4 operator was NOT wearing gloves.
5. FAE1 received minor burns to his hands. FF1 and FF2 received minor burns to their faces.
FAE1 was NOT wearing gloves.
FF1’s shroud was NOT down.
FF2 had his shroud down but NOT secured.
————————————————————————————————————
This is about the massive fire whirl, which was more like a firenado, on the deadly CA Carr Fire from JD’s NY Times article about “Fierce and Unpredictable” extreme fire behavior.
“In the wild, these fire whirls are unpredictable and dangerous. An exceptionally powerful whirl in late July during California’s unrelenting Carr Fire whipped winds up to 143 miles per hour, roaring and spinning for 90 minutes and scooping up ash, debris and flames. It uprooted trees, stripped the bark off them, and downed power lines. The whirl, sometimes nicknamed a “firenado,” was so large it was picked up on Doppler radar.”
This quote is about the Eagle Fire or Eagle Lake Fire on the NV / CA border with severe downslope winds and these inattentive idiots let this massive fire whirl basically sneak up on them.
A USA Today article titled: “California ‘fire tornado’ had 143 mph winds, possibly state’s strongest twister ever” ( https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2018/08/03/fire-tornado-california-carr-fire-143-mph-winds/897835002/ ) Impressive, massive Carr Fire, firewhirl in he short “Craig Padilla” video clip within the article.
“The devastating fire tornado that spun up during the Carr Fire last week had 143 mph winds, according to a preliminary report from the National Weather Service Thursday. This is equal to an EF-3 tornado on the five-level Enhanced Fujita Scale.
“Dan Keeton, the meteorologist-in-charge at the National Weather Service in Sacramento, said the fact that the weather service was able to see the rotation of the 35,000-foot-tall plume on its radar — well over 100 miles south of Redding — was significant.
“‘I’ve never seen anything like that in my career,” said Keeton, who has been with the weather service since 1985″
The 11 photos of the fire whirls aftermath are quite revealing with downed and uprooted trees, power lines, and damaged homes.
“It spun up between 7:30 and 8:00 p.m. PT on July 26. Preliminary reports include the collapse of high tension power line towers, uprooted trees, and the complete removal of tree bark.
“Craig Clements, the director of San Jose State University’s Fire Weather Research Laboratory, told BuzzFeed that the vortex of fire may have been the strongest ever recorded. “This is historic in the U.S.,” he said. ‘This might be the strongest fire-induced tornado-like circulation ever recorded..”
The “Matthew Cappucci” inset has some radar images indicating the rotation of this extreme weather event as well as the short seven-second video clip from “BuzzFeed Storm.”
Very impressive Carr Fire, July 26, 2018, fire whirl / firenado that wreaked havoc and death on several FFs. Source: CDF
( https://www.facebook.com/SFChronicle/videos/236923523630383/UzpfSTExNDI1MjcxNzc6MjEzNzE2NDE4OTY4Njg2MQ/ )
Fire tornado: Video shows Carr Fire destruction. (San Fransisco Chronicle ) 15 seconds long
New videos released by CAL FIRE show a huge fire tornado — the size of 3 football fields — tearing through Redding on July 26 as the Carr Fire entered the city. See more videos here:
( trib.al/5Wlpj4l ) ( https://www.sfchronicle.com/california-wildfires/article/Carr-Fire-s-horrendous-tornado-captured-in-13159636.php )
Videos released Wednesday by California fire officials show the massive fire tornado that tore through Redding on July 26 as the Carr Fire entered the city. The tornado was 1,000 feet in diameter at its base — about the size of three football fields — and “surprised many highly experienced firefighters,” according to a report by the California Department of Forestry and Fire Prevention.
Video courtesy of CAL FIRE
**
** REST IN PEACE – MATTHEW BURCHETT ( 42 YEARS OLD )
The 2018 California fires have claimed yet another firefighter’s life.
This time it’s Matthew Burchett, a BC ( Battalion Chief ) from the Draper City Fire Department, in Idaho.
He was a ‘hybrid’ wildland firefighter who was assigned to the Mendocino Complex Fire along with 4
others from his City Fire Department.
No details yet, other than the fact that he did not die out on the line.
He was injured, and then died in the hospital.
Another tree strike?
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Title: A Draper firefighter is killed battling a huge blaze in California.
He’s the first Utah firefighter to die in a wildfire since 2006.
Published: 3 hours ago. Updated 14 minutes ago. By: Scott D. Pierce
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/14/utah-firefighter-killed/
* Correction…
Typo up above. Draper City is in Utah, not Idaho.
* Update…
Looks like it really may have been another tree-strike death.
ABC Channel 4 in Utah mentioned the fatality on their evening news program, and a video clip of that is at the top of the following webpage…
ABC Channel 4, Utah
Article Title: Draper firefighter dies battling California wildfires
https://www.good4utah.com/news/local-news/draper-firefighter-dies-battling-california-wildfires/1366920517
From the video clip of the news broadcast…
——————————————————————————————————
At +3:19 in the video clip, Draper City Mayor Troy Walker said ( to the camera )…
“Advanced life support care was given immediately by crews on site, and within 40 minutes, Matt was airlifted by medevac helicopter to the Ukiah Valley Medical Center where he later succumbed to his injuries.”
At +4:20 in the video clip, field reporter Marcos Oritz says…
“As for the cause of death… unconfirmed reports from California say that a tree struck Burchett as he was fighting the fire.”
——————————————————————————————————
So….5 municipal firefighters were sent to fight a wildland fire in Cali & 1 was killed while 3 were injured in a tree strike? That’s an 80% failure rate just with one sample.
Woodsman,
Here are some of the details from those on the same fire where the Draper FF was killed and the others were injured, the Mendocino Complex.
It was “shift change” when the day shift comes off the line and the night shift comes on to the line to work. Their Divison was planning for a Firing Operation which included air support to pretreat the firelines with retardent using the way-too-expensive and way-too-dangerous VLATs (Very Large Air tankers).
They were in a heavy fuel type of large trees, needing a heavy coverage level.
Air Attack (AA) called the Divison Supervisor (DIVS) to warn him/her about the incoming VLAT drops. DIVS asked for ten minutes to warn everyone, then called AA and gave them the “all cleared to drop” message.
The Engines (including Draper FD) and a nearby Hot Shot Crew were now supposedly clear of the planned VLAT drop zone(s), which have to be quite a distance due to the huge quantity of retardent onboard and the length of their drops.
On the drops, they noticed that the VLAT was coming in very low, at about 300′ to 400′ Above Ground Level (AGL). On the second drop that eventually hit them, they noticed that the VLAT was much lower than the previous drops.
The drop extended for about one-half to three-quarters of a mile. This second drop uprooted a large tree that then hit the Draper FD Engine with several FFs sitting inside, including Matthew Burchett.
The Draper Engine FFs called a MAYDAY saying FFs were injured. The uninjured Draper Engine FFs provided immediate medical care as they could. Neighboring Resources went to the scene and some had to use extrication equipment to get to Burchett and some of the injured FFs.
The “Official Word” about this was that it was a “random accident” and not a tree strike or damage from a retardant drop.
The supervisory overhead held a debriefing and told all the WF’s and FFs involved that they were not allowed to talk about the incident and would require them to “sign a waiver on non-disclosure.”
Most, if not all the those involved in the incident refused to sign the non-dislosure waiver. Obviously, the IM/Overhead were pissed.
Many of those WFs and FFs involved said it was pretty f**Ked up and they were gonna need/want some Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM) to deal with all of this.
Several of them were demobbed and sent back to their home units and told to take three days off instead of the usual two days off.
In light of the inordinate number of recent WFs and FFs deaths in CA in the past few weeks, the word is that the WFs and FFs on the firelines are very distrustful of CDF in particular AND of the supervisory direction they are receiving regarding tactical fireline assignments, especially with the unprecedented, extreme fire behavior witnessed and experienced on the fatal Carr Fire near Redding, CA.
In other words, there will be a lot more independent or at least semi-independent actions occurring or there will be a lot of time not engaging or just hanging out in safe areas and Safety Zones.
A lot of FFs and WFs are asking the question: WTF is going on? Signs of the times or what?
Thanks for the info, RTS. I appreciate it.
** CAL FIRE CONFIRMS A TREE STRIKE KILLED BURCHETT
CAL FIRE is now CONFIRMING that it was a tree strike that killed Draper City firefighter Matthew Burchett.
CAL FIRE is now also saying that THREE OTHER firefighters were INJURED in the same event that killed Burchett.
The Press Democrat
Article Title: Firefighter who died battling Mendocino Complex fires mourned by Utah town
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/8634595-181/firefighter-who-died-battling-mendocino
—————————————————————————————————-
Burchett was battling flames downstream of Lake Pillsbury’s Scott Dam when he was hit by a falling tree, Cal Fire Division Chief Todd Derum said.
Three others from Kings County were injured in the incident, he said.
Burchett and the Utah crew were working alongside firefighters from Sonoma, Lake and Napa counties, who rushed to give him medical aid after he was injured.
Burchett leaves behind a wife and a young son.
—————————————————————————————————–
Sigh..,..
#1. RIP Battalion Chief Burchett. I pray for your family to have strength and healing following your tragic death.
#2. You never heard of, read, or considered my open letter to battalion chiefs across the land. I’ve been doing this awhile and I’m more than just an overworked ahole. Being correct has never meant anything to me. Saving firefighters families from the devastation of losing their loved ones by speaking the truth, does. Please, you muni-moonlighters, you must reconsider delving into the wildland realm.
#3. Never take an assignment to Cali if you can help it….unless you live there. In that case, move.
That is all.
Reply to Woodsman post on August 15, 2018 at 11:01 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> #3. Never take an assignment to Cali if you can help
>> it….unless you live there. In that case, move.
It’s a wonder, at this point, that the official geographic designator on the dispatch requests for Calfornia isn’t simply TKZ.
As in… “The Kill Zone”
Woodsman,
It is indeed unprecedented and quite disturbing that so many FFsand WFs are being killed in such a close timeframe in the same state in just a few weeks. This falls in line with our discussion on WF deaths are inevitable and can only be reduced in numbers..
The fact that it is the CDF is NOT surprising and should be a major Watch Out to anyone and everyone that decides to accept a wildland fire assignment in CA, and especially if they accept the actual tactical assignment that is offered to them.
Remember that nobody forces anyone to take an assignment, they don’t put a gun to your head. You always have a choice but once you take it, then you “accept the risk” as the attorneys like to say. You own it
The report does not assess blame, but it does offer cautions for the future — such as fleeing fire tornadoes upon sight.
Amazing jewels of wisdom from an Agency that has had six WF/FF deaths in about 4 weeks in the same state
You mean if I see a fire tornado headed towards me I should get out of the way? Why didn’t I think of that?!!!? I’m so going to incorporate this amazing insight into my next briefing!
Woodsman,
reminds me of the old firing squad joke from here:
http://www.jokebuddha.com/Tornado
You claim the deaths are inevitable, not me. I will not accept that. This is not combat. The probability of death on a wildfire is higher than it should be for many reasons I have pointed out. I refuse to accept the inevitability of fire line deaths & will continue to offer up my opinions as to the problems at hand along with potential solutions.
“It is indeed unprecedented and quite disturbing that so many FFsand WFs are being killed in such a close timeframe in the same state in just a few weeks. This falls in line with our discussion on WF deaths are inevitable and can only be reduced in numbers..”
I’m telling you, man…I know shit. I’m a freaking savant.
Well, I screwed that up. I meant to quote this:
“It is indeed unprecedented and quite disturbing that so many FFsand WFs are being killed in such a close timeframe in the same state in just a few weeks.”
…just like I told everyone a couple of weeks ago…don’t go to a CDF incident…
**
** REST IN PEACE – ANDREW BRAKE ( CAL FIRE )
>> On August 3, 2018 at 5:42 pm, Woodsman wrote…
>>
>> Thank you for expanding on this theme. Sleep deprivation. It’s important.
Yep… and ( unfortunately ) that point has just been tragically proved… AGAIN.
Andrew Brake was 40. He was a Heavy Eguipment Mechanic permanently employed by CAL FIRE.
Single car accident at the now-infamous Carr Fire.
Family members have been told he fell asleep at the wheel.
His vehicle drifted off the road ( at a curve ), struck a tree, and burst into flames.
Two young daughters ( as usual ).
Fire Rescue Magazine
Article Title: Third firefighter killed responding to Carr fire
Andrew Brake, 40, was killed after falling asleep at the wheel on his way to the fire lines
Published: Today, August 10, 2018, at 10:29 AM
By: Michael Cabanatuan and Peter Fimrite of the San Francisco Chronicle
https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-death/articles/388884018-Third-firefighter-killed-responding-to-Carr-fire/
From that article…
———————————————————————————————————
REDDING, Calif. — The death toll in what was already the most lethal year for firefighters in California since 2008 increased to five. Thursday, when a heavy equipment mechanic was killed after falling asleep at the wheel on his way to the fire lines near Redding, a family member told The Chronicle.
Andrew Brake, 40, of Chico died in a single-car crash on his way to work on the Carr Fire, which had already claimed the lives of two firefighters and five other people, including a woman and her two great-grandchildren, and a PG&E lineman, who died trying to restore power to the area.
Brake was a six-year veteran of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, or Cal Fire, working out of the Butte unit in Oroville. The crash occurred about 7:30 a.m. on Highway 99 south of Los Molinos in Tehama County, officials and relatives said.
His mother, Teresa Brake of Chico, said he had been working almost nonstop fighting fires since May and was obviously tired at the time of the accident.
“I’ve had nightmares about him having something like this happen,” she said, adding that they barely had time to text one another after his exhausting days at work.
Cal Fire would not say how many hours Andrew Brake had been working in the days leading up to his death, but fire experts have expressed concern about worker fatigue as fires have relentlessly burned across the state this summer. California had 18 active conflagrations Thursday.
——————————————————————————————————-
Check your times. I’ve read reports the vehicle accident occurred at 12:17 A.M. That’s like close to MIDNIGHT, you know…….
According to California Highway Patrol officer Ken Reineman, the crash occurred at 12:17 A.M.
https://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article216377810.html
So, why the mixup in times? I sure hope no one is trying to coverup something. Do you hear that sound? That grinding noise is the sound of a mechanics timesheets going through the shredder. Now, maybe I’m not playing nice here, but as an investigator the very first action I would take is to pull the timesheets.
Reply to Woodsman post on August 11, 2018 at 2:16 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Check your times. I’ve read reports the vehicle accident occurred
>> at 12:17 A.M. That’s like close to MIDNIGHT, you know…….
Yes. Initial reports put the ‘accident’ at 12:17 AM ( Coming OFF shift? )
Subsequent articles put the time at 7:30 AM ( Going ON shift? )
Huge difference.
So which is it?
FWIW… U.S. Fire Administration’s official website and press release about the accident puts the accident time at 12:19 AM ( not 12:17 AM or 7:30 AM ).
https://apps.usfa.fema.gov/firefighter-fatalities/fatalityData/detail?fatalityId=4774
‘FireFighterCloseCalls’ online eZine is reporting that he was driving a ‘Cal Fire support vehicle’ and not his own personal vehicle… and that Brake’s death IS being treated as a LODD ( Line Of Duty Death ).
THIS article actually has a clear picture of the crashed ‘Cal Fire support vehicle’, still crumpled against the tree but after the fire was put out…
https://krcrtv.com/news/tehama-county/one-dead-after-fire-support-vehicle-crash
That article also puts the ‘crash time’ at around 12:30 AM… and based on the fact that the photo shows the crash in the PITCH DARK… it is highly unlikely that the crash didn’t happen until 7:30 AM the next morning.
But I still can’t find any evidence there is any official ‘agency’ investigation being fired up on this one.
If there is no ‘Special Accident Investigation’ and/or some CRaP inquiry, then the only real information about the fatal accident will simply remain in the police reports.
Correction…
I said ( up above )…
——————————————————————————–
THIS article actually has a clear picture of the crashed ‘Cal Fire support vehicle’, still crumpled against the tree but after the fire was put out…
https://krcrtv.com/news/tehama-county/one-dead-after-fire-support-vehicle-crash
That article also puts the ‘crash time’ at around 12:30 AM… and based on the fact that the photo shows the crash in the PITCH DARK… it is highly unlikely that the crash didn’t happen until 7:30 AM the next morning.
——————————————————————————-
There’s a typo in there.
The article above says the crash happened around 12:20 AM, not 12:30 AM.
**
** 72-HOUR REPORT ON THE DEATH OF ARROWHEAD HOTSHOT CAPTAIN BRIAN HUGHES
The Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( WFLLC ) has now published their ‘Ferguson_Fire_72_Hour_Report’ document regarding the death of Arrowhead Hotshot Captain Brian Huges on the Ferguson Fire.
The report is now available here…
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Page Title: Ferguson Fire Hit by Tree Fatality (2018)
State: California
Incident Date: 07/29/2018
Incident Type: Hit by Tree
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=0e62740f-f5f4-4539-a422-24e42961871b
The report appears to confirm that Captain Brian Hughes wasn’t just struck by a falling tree as he was simply walking along… but that the incident took place WHILE the Arrowhead Hotshots were actively engaged in ‘hazard tree removal’ operations.
It still doesn’t say whether it was Hughes himself trying to cut down the tree that struck him, or whether it was someone else on the crew.
It does also confirm that more than an HOUR passed between the time Brian Hughes was hit by the tree and he was eventually ‘flown off the mountain’., and that he was possibly still alive at that time.
Brian Hughes was ‘pronounced’ dead on his way TO the hospital.
The report does not mention ANY of the NAMES of ANY of the people who have been assigned to investigate this fatality. Only their ‘titles’.
It’s pretty short… so here is a TEXT copy of the entire thing…
———————————————————————————————————
National Park Service
U.S. Department of the Interior
Serious Accident Investigation Team
72-Hour Expanded Report
Date: August 1, 2018
To: National Park Service Division Chief, Fire and Aviation Management
From: Hughes Fatality Serious Accident Investigation Team Leader
Subject: 72-Hour Expanded Report
This report contains additional information beyond the 24-Hour Report.
Name of Fatality Victim(s): Brian Hughes
Number and Type of Injuries: 0
Narrative: On July 29th, 2018 the NPS Arrowhead Interagency Hotshot Crew was engaged in fire suppression operations on the Ferguson Fire near Yosemite National Park. At approximately 9:24 a.m., Hotshot Captain Brian Hughes was struck by a tree and fatally injured during hazard tree removal.
Emergency medical personnel and other staff assigned to the division responded to the scene quickly. Hughes was flown off the mountain at 10:32 a.m. by a helicopter equipped with advanced life support. While en route to Mariposa Airport, Hughes was pronounced dead.
An Interagency Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT) was convened July 31st. The team in briefed with USDA Forest Service (USFS) and National Park Service (NPS) personnel at 8:00 a.m. on August 1, 2018.
Interviews with the crew and pertinent staff are being conducted by the SAIT. The interviews are being jointly conducted by both NPS and USFS in accordance with Departmental Manual 486 Chapter 7 and NPS Reference Manual 50B, Occupational Safety and Health Program and Reference Manual 18, Wildland Fire Management.
cc:
Deputy Regional Director, PWR
Wildland Fire Branch Chief, FMPC
Wildland Fire Operations Program Leader, FMPC
Division Chief, Office of Risk Management, WASO
———————————————————————————————————
WTKTT,
I talked with a WF that shared some details about that Ferguson Incident that contradict the 72-hour Report. He says that the fatality occurred while going direct attack on a slopover and NOT doing hazard tree mitigation for a planned burnout operation.
Hughes was the one that cut the 40″ diameter tree and he evidently cut through his holding wood, so then there is no control of the tree to either stay on the stump or for him to complete his cut. Hughes then ran along his originally planned escape route rather than look up and watch where the tree was headed first and then plan his escape route accordingly.
So much for the accuracy and transparency of these wildland fire Agencies’ reports. It fits the first establish the conclusion and then find the “facts” to support the predetermined pattern conclusion.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
August 10, 2018 at 7:08 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I talked with a WF that shared some details about that Ferguson
>> Incident that contradict the 72-hour Report. He says that the
>> fatality occurred while going direct attack on a slopover and
>> NOT doing hazard tree mitigation for a planned burnout operation.
Thank you for that update.
Why am I not surprised that they ( CALFIRE, National Park Service, etc. ) can’t even get their stories straight.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Hughes was the one that cut the 40″ diameter tree
Since when are Assistant Superintendents ( Captains ) of IHC crews supposed to the ones doing the actual cutting out there in the field?
>> and he evidently cut through his holding wood, so then there is
>> no control of the tree to either stay on the stump or for
>> him to complete his cut.
Yup. That’s why you NEVER do that.
>> Hughes then ran along his originally planned escape route
>> rather than look up and watch where the tree was headed first
>> and then plan his escape route accordingly.
Too many similarities to Justin Beebe’s death on the Strawberry Fire, almost 2 years ago to the day. Beebe took his eyes off the ‘snag’ he was cutting, turned his back on it, and it killed him dead on August 13, 2016.
I really have to say it…
Who in the hell TEACHES these guys/gals how to cut down trees?
Some crazed Woody Woodpecker with 2 six-packs onboard?
Your Question— Some times on large trees there may not be a qualified faller.
The Superintendent may be the only one for a nasty tree/or actually certified.
Most fallers for large trees take severial years to get experience.
Need more info. Wedges used, any spotters, was the tree a challenge fall.
Did he put the undercut on the wrong side??????
Just saw on my face book fire page that Chris Mackenzie’s Dad Mike Passed away from Cancer.
Rest in Peace Mike Mackenzie. Worked for Cal Fire.
Thank you for that, Bob.
Yes. Rest in Peace, Mike Mackenzie… and thank you.
If it were not for Mike Mackenzie realizing that there were important photos and videos from June 30, 2013 sitting on his son’s Canon digital camera… that crucial evidence would probably have never seen the light of day.
Christopher Mackenzie’s still-functioning CANON digital camera DISAPPEARED from the Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office ( along with a number of other things such as Eric Marsh’s cellphone ) and was never officially entered into the YCSO evidence chain.
It was only when someone ( from Chino Vally FD? ) mailed the camera to Christopher’s father Mike, and HE discovered the important evidence still on it… that those crucial photos and videos ended up on a CD that Mike Mackenzie himself handed BACK to Darrell Willis at Christopher’s funeral service.
Willis then did, in fact, ultimately DELIVER that crucial evidence BACK to the SAIT investigation.
But even then… the SAIT never mentioned any of this evidence… and it still took Arizona Open Records requests from local media to discover that this evidence from Christopher’s camera even existed.
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Key evidence in Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy never provided to official investigators
Published: December 16, 2015 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/key-evidence-in-yarnell-hill-fire-tragedy-never-provided-to-official-investigators/
From that article…
—————————————————————————————————
Key evidence that could explain why the Granite Mountain Hotshots moved from a safe location into a treacherous box canyon where 19 men died on June 30, 2013 was in the possession of the Office of the Maricopa County Medical Examiner but was not provided to the state-contracted investigation into the tragedy, autopsy records recently obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA show.
A cell phone belonging to Granite Mountain superintendent Eric Marsh and a functioning camera belonging to hotshot Christopher MacKenzie were with the men’s bodies when they arrived at the medical examiner’s office on July 1, 2013 but were not listed as evidence that was later collected by the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office, autopsy records for Marsh and MacKenzie show.
The YCSO was in charge of gathering all evidence from the medical examiner and later turning it over to the Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT) which was contracted by the Arizona Forestry Division to conduct the formal investigation into the Yarnell Hill Fire disaster, according to the autopsy reports and the YCSO report.
The YCSO has no record of Marsh’s cell phone or MacKenzie’s camera among the evidence collected from the medical examiner, according to a YCSO police report. Marsh’s cell phone and MacKenzie’s camera ended up with family members outside the formal chain-0f-custody.
MacKenzie’s camera included video clips of a crucial discussion between Marsh and Granite Mountain Captain Jesse Steed that suggests a disagreement over tactics before the crew left the “black”, burned-over area.
Marsh’s cell phone and McKenzie’s still working camera — although not a cell phone but clearly important because of the photos and videos of the fire — were not included in the evidence collected by the YCSO.
Dr. Philip Keen, the former chief medical examiner for Yavapai and Maricopa counties, said Monday law enforcement determines what personal items accompanying bodies should be collected for evidence and what should be released to funeral homes, which then provide the personal belongings to relatives.
“If they (personal property) were released to the same deputies, then there is something fishy here,” Keen said. Keen worked as the Yavapai County chief medical examiner for 29 years and also served as the Maricopa County chief medical examiner for 14 years.
YCSO Lieutenant Boelts told InvestigativeMEDIA that YCSO Deputy Nelson picked up all the personal belongings of the firefighters and turned them over to the Prescott Fire Department.
The YCSO police report, however, states that McDermott and Lieutenant Boelts gave the firefighters’ personal items and the spreadsheet listing the items to Rob Zazueta of Chino Valley Fire Department on July 4, 2013.
Arizona Forestry Division spokesman Bill Boyd said Monday that the division doesn’t know why the evidence wasn’t forwarded to YCSO and subsequently to the investigation team and how that may have impacted the investigation.
“You’re going to have to talk to them (the Serious Accident Investigation Team),” Boyd said.
Autopsy records for MacKenzie show a cell phone and a Canon camera were present in the body bag that contained MacKenzie’s remains. The autopsy report notes that the Canon S1400IS camera was still “working”.
The autopsy report, prepared by Dr. Christopher K. Poulos, does not include the camera or the cellphone under the heading “EVIDENCE”. Instead, Dr. Poulos states the evidence “includes a flame retardant pouch, one boot, one helmet, pants with belt, two gloves and a yellow long sleeve shirt size large.”
The YCSO report, however, includes MacKenzie’s cellphone as evidence. But the more important Canon camera that includes the two videos of conversations between Marsh and Steed is not included in YCSO evidence.
MacKenzie’s Canon camera was sent to his father, Mike MacKenzie, sometime before July 13, according to a Sept. 28, 2013 story in the Courier. Mike MacKenzie was surprised to discover it was still functioning, the paper reported.
Mike MacKenzie reportedly made a copy of the photographs and videos and provided them to Prescott Wildlands Division Chief Darrell Willis on July 13 during his son’s funeral services, according to the Prescott Courier. Willis supervised the Granite Mountain crew. Willis, who has since retired, said he gave a CD with the photos and videos to the SAIT.
The photos and videos do not appear in the formal, 122-page Serious Accident Investigation Report (SAIR) that was released to the families and public on Sept. 28, 2013. Instead, they are among thousands of pages of supporting documents to the SAIR that were released to the media in December 2013.
The SAIR does not mention the two videos that suggest there was a disagreement between Marsh and Steed. The two nine-second videos were taken about 4 p.m. on June 30. Steed appears in the video talking to Marsh, who is in another location. Eleven of the hotshots appear in the video.
—————————————————————————————————-
More and more articles are showing up online with home videos and such of the intense fire behavior on the Redding, CA Carr Fire that resulted in a massive fire whirl killing a FF
“A Wildfire In California Caused A Fire Whirl So Strong It Looked Like A Tornado On Radar” ( https://www.forbes.com/sites/dennismersereau/2018/07/28/a-wildfire-in-california-caused-a-fire-whirl-so-strong-it-looked-like-a-tornado-on-radar/#e7ab9491fbdf )
This timelapse video that shows the #CarrFire approaching #Redding, California. http://nbcbay.com/P6XvyXh [Video: Cody Markhart] is pretty amazing
There has been some credible information from those on the Carr Fire that several of these FFs were on “rescue missions” to retrieve as many private citizens as possible.
One FF said he was on his third trip and drove through and/or was caught up in the fire whirl that BLEW THE VEHICLE WINDOWS OUT (WTF) and STRIPPED THE PAINT FROM THE VEHICLE and he made it out safely.
This FF that made it safely out stated that the FF that perished was right behind him, and did NOT make it out. The second FF’s vehicle was then uplifted into the updraft of the intensifying fire whirl and tumbled the vehicle through the air about numerous times.
Why do you think these details surrounding the death of Redding City Fire Deaprtment inspector Jeremy Stoke are being ‘withheld’ from the press?
If true… it’s a story that NEEDS to be told.
It’s Serious Accident Investigation of a fatality and they have to deal with it per their Agency policy.
Yes, it’s definitely a story but much more than that. The fire behavior exhibited on the Carr Fire is unprecedented in the continental US as far as I know.
Australia and Alaska have had them
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEDN2vNN-y4 ) Alaska
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqYEeivt8Eg ) Australia (“Holy shit”)
I need to say something. In light of the absurd numbers of firefighter deaths so far this year. Apparently, under the current system they are “inevitable” but I will take the firm position to my grave that they are 100% AVOIDABLE! You hear me? AVOIDABLE!!!!!!!!!! The arrogance of man is incomprehensible.
Give me an everloving break! No heavy equipment bosses? You don’t realize a dozer operator has plunged to his death until the next day? An 82 year old contract dozer operator? Smokejumpers “doin’ their thang.” It’s people. People are killing people through incompetence. Calfire: you suck. Your elitist attitude is deadly. My next orders will come through in a few days & if they say Cali, I’m turning them down.
What the everloving Frick has happened to the wildfire world? None of this should happen. None. Not only have we learned nothing, we’ve made it worse by hiding the truth…on purpose. Is this some kind of population control master plan I don’t know about?
That is all.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I totally agree and always have. Wildland firefighting deaths are 100% AVOIDABLE if you follow the basic WF Rules. AVOIDABLE!!!!!!!!!!
These guys were NOT safely fighting. fire aggressively.
They were instead fighting fire aggressively and unsafely at night without proper supervisory oversight (i.e. Dozer Boss or HEQM)
That is a design for disaster as they say
It is a wise decision to turn down all CA CDF fire assignments
Question for anyone willing to answer for me: Why does Calfire (California dept of Forestry) continuously operate in violation of one of our most basic safety rules – the 2:1 work/rest ratio by working personnel in 24 hour shifts? Riddle me that…
What’s the death toll up to now that they believe they know better? California may be the cradle of wildfire but in many ways I believe it’s been one Charlie Foxtrot of a broken cradle from the beginning.
I’ll wait for the factual reports to roll in on these fires which I’m sure will be nothing but forthright, honest, and chock full of lessons learned. I’m sure of it.
Reply to Woodsman post on August 1, 2018 at 6:48 pm
>> Woodsman asked…
>>
>> Question for anyone willing to answer for me: Why does Calfire (California
>> dept of Forestry) continuously operate in violation of one of our most
>> basic safety rules – the 2:1 work/rest ratio by working personnel in
>> 24 hour shifts? Riddle me that…
I’ll take a guess.
I would say it probably has something to do with the fact that CALFire now relies primarily on ‘hybrids’ to help fight all these wildfires.
That means they are ‘normally’ structure FFs, and they are ‘normally’ used to working the standard three 24-hour shifts a week… with 24 hours off in-between shifts.
But CALFire itself acknowledges ( publicly ) how dangerous this can be.
From one of CALFire’s own public ‘Facebook’ pages…
https://www.facebook.com/CALFIRE4896/posts/1092795197434157
—————————————————————————————-
CAL FIRE 48/96
Message posted on September 7, 2016
After being awake for 18-19 hours, impairment on a simple reaction time test was comparable with impairment observed at a blood alcohol concentration of 0.05%.
After being awake for 24 hours, impairment on a simple reaction time test was comparable with impairment observed at a blood alcohol concentration of roughly 0.10%.
Read the latest articles posted on calfire4896.com under Studies: Fire Engineering
——————————————————————————————
The three firefighters who were burned at the Carr Fire were all ‘hybrids’ from Marin County, California… and they were supposedly at the tail end of another 24-hour shift when they were burned.
Corey Iverson, the FF who was burned to death last year at the Thomas fire, was also at the end of a 24-hour shift when HE was killed.
State and local fire agencies in California who participate in fighting in-state wildfires get paid “portal to portal”, meaning every hour from the moment they leave their home stations, to the moment they return, 24/7.
The 24 hour on/ 24 hour off shifts likely provide some of the justification for the “portal to portal pay”, but I don’t see exactly how. It may well be that they are worried that any change in their schedule could result in the loss of “portal to portal” pay, which tends to result in a tremendous advocacy to keep the status quo.
Many firefighters from outside of California see “portal to portal” as a bit of a scam, (example: getting paid for actually working 24 hours, then, having the next day off, while getting paid 24 hours overtime for that day off, and repeat, day after day after day). I have watched debates regarding this issue in other forums and the Cal. firefighters get absolutely livid when anyone suggests that this pay system might somehow be a bit hinky.
They also have in their contacts that they are to stay in motels wherever possible, which sometimes results in extensive travel times to get to and fro.
Followup…
The same ‘CAL FIRE 48/96’ Facebook page has also posted numerous articles about the debate between using a 12 hour work shift versus a 24 hour one.
For example… ‘CAL FIRE 48/96’ posted a link to THIS ‘Firehouse’ article…
FIREHOUSE
Article Title: Work Schedules – 24 versus 12
Published: April 1, 2016
https://www.firehouse.com/careers-education/article/12156027/work-schedules-24-vs-12
From the article…
———————————————————————————-
The nature of public safety establishes a need to provide services 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. To accomplish this, many fire departments utilize a 24-hour shift. Other fire departments as well as other public safety organizations, such as police, 9-1-1 communications and those in the medical community, have the same requirement to provide services 24 hours a day but few, if any, utilize a 24-hour shift.
On the organizational side, a significant downside of the 24-hour shift is the fact that staffing levels cannot be adjusted according to the workload. In other words, there is no way to adjust the number of personnel on duty to correlate with the typical call volume experienced throughout a 24-hour period.
Another significant downside that should be considered is fatigue. Some agencies that run a large number of structure fires are not able to use 24-hour shifts because of the amount of fatigue placed on the employees.
——————————————————————————–
So… if an ‘agency’ is a very busy one… they have already discovered that they cannot expect their firefighters to be ACTUALLY suited-up and ACTIVELY FIGHTING FIRE for their ENTIRE 24 hour shift, and so many of these ‘busy’ agencies/stations have moved to a 12 hour shift.
Enter ‘hybrid firefighters’ ( Structure FFs being called out to fight wildland fires ).
THEY are being asked to actually be ‘working’ for their entire 24-hour shift(s) out on the fireline even though management on the structural side acknowledges that is a LOT ( too much? ) to expect of any FF.
I also would bet money that most of these guys/gals who are used to 24 hour shifts back the fire station ( with downtime ) are NOT in good enough shape to be ACTUALLY ( actively ) suited-up and working for a full 24 hour shift.
At the end of any given 24-hour shift out on the fireline… these ‘hybrids’ who are used to station-based work shifts must be absolutely, totally EXHAUSTED.
By the way…
Firefighter Cory Iverson, who was killed last December on the Thomas Fire in California, had just completed his 25th hour of his current work shift when he became entrapped.
He and his engine crew were asked to STAY ‘on-shift’ to protect that avocado orchard when a flare-up emerged at the END of their current 24-hour work shift.
The following ‘timeline’ is based on information in the CALFire ‘Green Sheet’ report regarding the death of Cory Iverson…
———————————————————————————–
December 13, 2017
08:30 AM – Cory Iverson and STEN1 arrive for a new 24-hour shift at Division X on the Thomas Fire.
10:00 AM – Cory Iverson and STEN1 are at-work on their ‘mop up’ assignment on Division X.
The assignment for the day was to mopup a slop-over on a ridge to the southwest of the avocado orchard that occurred on the prior shift. STEN1 worked this section of Division X the entire day of December 13, 2017. Cory Iverson and STEN1 stayed working overnight in that location near the avocado orchard.
December 14, 2017
8:00 AM – Cory Iverson and STEN1 are now at the 23 and 1/2 hour mark in their current 24-hour shift. A flare-up takes place on the fireline above the avocado grove, and Cory Iverson and STEN1 are told to stay on-shift to try and take care of it.
8:14 AM – DZ1 and DZ2 began constructing direct dozer line from the water tanks to the upper corner of the avocado orchard at the mid-slope road.
8:40 AM – DZ1 and DZ2 completed the dozer line. Cory Iverson and the other STEN1 FFs begin a hoselay on the dozer line.
Cory Iverson and STEN1 are now 10 minutes into their 25th straight hour on their current work shift.
9:00 AM – Spot fires are now appearing along the new dozer line.
9:15 AM – Cory Iverson leaves the dozer line ( alone ) and wades downslope into the unburned fuel to try and take care of a spot fire.
9:25 AM – The spot fire flares up and cuts Iverson off from the dozer line.
9:27 AM – FC1 declared, on the assigned tactical frequency, “We have a firefighter trapped.”
9:30 AM – Cory Iverson is last seen running downslope and desperately trying to escape the fire.
10:05 AM – FC1, notified STL1 that he had located Iverson, who was deceased, with no shelter deployment.
———————————————————————————–
So at the moment he was last seen desperately running downslope and trying to escape the fire ( at 9:30 AM )… Cory Iverson had just completed his 25th straight hour on his current work shift, after having been told to STAY on-shift to try and protect that avocado orchard.
This fact was not mentioned anywhere in the CALFire report, or highlighted in any way in their own ‘Safety Considerations Related to this Incident’ report section.
See CALFire’s own ‘stats’ above about how being awake for 24 hours can impair your judgement and be akin to ‘drunk driving’ impairment levels.
“Bulldozer slipped 3 times before firefighter’s fatal plunge near Yosemite”
Aug. 3, 2018, by Lizzie Johnson
“The report notes that, in the future, fire supervisors need to maintain communication with crew members, plans should have “tactical value,” and working alone should be “an anomaly, not the rule,” suggesting that officials failed to check in with Varney and didn’t establish a clear and safe mission.”
We already have the long-established Ten Standard Fire Orders for this one, (i.e. Number 7, Maintain prompt communications with …”)
“Investigations into the deaths of the three other firefighters are ongoing, but together they have called into question how local and state agencies keep firefighters safe as resources are increasingly stretched thin by bigger and more explosive conflagrations.”
Stretched thin also implies lack of rest and sleep time
“The Carr Fire killed Redding Fire Department inspector Jeremy Stoke, 37, whose cause of death has not been released, …”
No shit!?
“’We are always looking for the common denominators in why there are fatalities on these incidents,’ said Cal Fire spokesman Jonathan Cox. ‘That’s why our department evaluates how and why an incident happened, and if there are changes we need to make as a department’.”
Once again, we already have the long-established Ten Standard Fire Orders, the Eighteen Watch Out Situations, LCES, the Common Denominators, etc. for this one,
And then on the sleep issue: “Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker review – how more sleep can save your life.” by neuroscientist Matthew Walker.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/sep/21/why-we-sleep-by-matthew-walker-review
Within the first few pages of this book, it states that less than six to seven hours of sleep per night results in our immune system completely shutting down.
“… low level exhaustion becomes their accepted norm, or baseline. Individuals fail to recognise how their perennial state of sleep deficiency has come to compromise their mental aptitude and physical vitality, including the slow accumulation of ill health. A link between the former and the latter is rarely made in their mind.”
It was interesting to note that several of these wildland fire fatalities occurred during the 25th hour or later
Thank you for expanding on this theme. Sleep deprivation. It’s important.
Woodsman,
Off the sleep topic here but research paper about HROs, strictly aircraft carrier incidents, relevant to the overall discussions.
JJ Halpern (1989) Cognitive factors influencing decision making in a highly reliable organization. Industrial Crisis Quarterly 3 (1989) 143-158 Elsevier Science Publishers B. V., Amsterdam — Printed in The Netherlands.
“Despite screening and training, humans remain fallible. They are particularly fallible when they are under pressure, as is the case in many situations in highly reliable organizations. Therefore, organizations must try to compensate for human failures. While rules and standard operating procedures can create error, they must, ironically, be trusted to prevent failure. Organizations can be developed which take into account human fallibility.”
A good paper worth reading
JJ Halpern (1989) Cognitive factors influencing decision making in a highly reliable organization. Industrial Crisis Quarterly 3 (1989) 143-158 Elsevier Science Publishers B. V., Amsterdam — Printed in The Netherlands.
And the link is here. ( https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/26162615 )
**
** UPDATE ON THE CARR FIRE FIREFIGHTER DEATHS
Still not a lot of detail emerging about the two firefighter deaths on the Carr fire… but the San Francisco media continues to do its job and try and find out more about the circumstances surrounding these public work place fatalities.
The following ‘SF Mercury News’ article has, at least, a little more information.
1. It is now being reported that the dozer operator was 82 years old, not just 81.
2. CALFire is now admitting that the 82-year-old dozer operator WAS working as a CALFire contractor when he died, but they are also denying any responsibility for his eligibility for fireline work. The actual CALFire contract was with ‘Robert Dominikus General Engineering’, and it looks like CALFire is getting ready to throw THEM ‘under the bus’.
The Mercury News – Serving the San Francisco Bay Area
Article Title: Battling blazes, grief for fallen colleagues
Published: Monday, July 31, 2018
By: Marisa Kendall, Matthias Gafni and Julia Prodis Sulek
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/the-mercury-news/20180731/281513636960283
Quotes from the article…
Re: Jeremy Stoke
———————————————————————————————————
At the Carr fire, Jeremy Stoke, 37, a fire inspector with the Redding Fire Department, was killed. In a grim reminder of firefighters’ work ethic, Stoke’s funeral is being postponed until his colleagues, still battling the blaze, can attend.
Stoke was out in his truck checking access roads, doing evacuations, making sure firefighters were all right, Redding deputy Fire Chief Cullen Kreider said Monday ( July 31, 2018 ).
“We were all out on the fire line that night and when that happened early that morning we were just in disbelief,” he said. “We’re still trying to fight the fire and at the same time grieve for our brother, so it’s been really tough.”
Stoke was a “great guy, very outgoing, a big guy, boisterous and always up for a good time,” he said. The night he died, “He was out there with us just trying to protect the community”.
———————————————————————————————————-
Re: Don Ray Smith
———————————————————————————————————-
Don Smith, an 82-year-old bulldozer operator and private Contractor from Pollock Pines, also was killed in the Carr fire, when he was overrun Friday ( July 28, 2018 ) by the flames east of Whiskeytown Lake. His age raised concerns about whether any other health issues could have been contributing factors.
“Most people aren’t out there operating dozers and fighting fire at that age,” said Cliff Allen, president of Cal Fire Local 2881, the union that represents Cal Fire employees, “so it’s pretty unusual.”
A coroner is investigating the death of Smith, a contractor with Robert Dominikus General Engineering, to determine if other factors were involved.
Sixty firefighters died on duty last year, according to the National Fire Protection Association’s annual report. Of those, more than half of firefighters over age 40 succumbed to heart attacks or other cardiac events. The rate for firefighters age 60 and over was 2.5 times the average.
Cal Fire spokeswoman Lynne Tolmachoff said Monday ( July 31, 2018 ) there is no mandatory retirement age for contractors and no physical tests they must perform. It’s up to each contractor to ensure their employee’s fitness, she said.
———————————————————————————————————–
Correction for above.
Monday ( yesterday ) was July 30, 2018, not July 31.
Followup…
** REDDING FIRE INSPECTOR JEREMY STOKE KILLED BY A CAR?
Station KQED in San Francisco is reporting that a spokesman for California OSHA has told THEM that Cal/OSHA was originally told by an ‘Agency Official’ that Redding City Fire Department Inspector Jeremy Stokes was killed because of a ( quote ) “fatal VEHICLE ACCIDENT on a public road” ( unquote ).
If that is true… I’m not sure why CALFire and/or the City of Redding have ( apparently ) been trying to keep that a ‘secret’ for days now.
KQED – PBS – San Francisco
Article Title: Redding Fire Kills Two, Burns at Least 500 Structures, and Is ‘Not Close to Being Done’
https://www.kqed.org/news/11683111/wildfire-races-to-outskirts-of-redding-firefighter-dozer-driver-killed
From that article…
—————————————————————————————————–
Early ( last ) Friday, Cal Fire confirmed that Fire Inspector Jeremy Stoke of the Redding Fire Department had also been killed.
A Cal/OSHA spokesman said his agency was told he was killed because of a fatal vehicle accident on a public road.
—————————————————————————————————–
Actually… there’s nothing even in the KQED report to indicate he was ‘killed by a car’ ( as in… hit on the side of the road, or something ).
If the report is true… I suppose it’s possible that ‘fatal vehicle accident’ means it might have simply been just a ‘single vehicle accident’ involving only Stoke and HIS ‘vehicle’.
Regardless… it’s still ‘odd’ that CALFire and/or the City of Redding have ( apparently ) been trying to keep his cause of death a ‘secret’ since it happened and refusing to release any information themselves about it being a ‘vehicle accident’.
This Brandon Varney death really has some disturbing details in the Green Report. Pitch black working conditions in a 42,000 lb vehicle……very treacherous “trail” that couldn’t support a Prius. Just looking at the photo showing the fall site looking down is enough to give me the frights. Unbelievable he was out there working that night. Such a shame and positively negligent from his superiors.
Redding Fire was hit with Sundowner winds. They come from the Coast over the mountain range and increase down into the valleys. mostly late at night. Some Pictures in Redding showed wind and heat produced vortexes in and near the town.
Bob,
“While fierce winds that have driven many of the state’s biggest blazes — such as Santa Barbara’s sundowners and Northern California’s diablos — were not a key factor in Redding, other ingredients that fuel big fires were abundant.”
The true “Sundowner” winds are only in the Santa Barbara, CA area s far as I know.
“Redding was scorched by a fire so strong it created its own weather system” article has a couple good smoke whirl video clips as well.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-california-wildfire-year-20180728-story.html
The article vide from the 22- to 26-second mark and the ABC 1o Twitter? one is good
ABC10 Verified account @ABC10 “No, this is not a tornado. The Carr Fire in Shasta County created this rotation updraft. #CarrFire #California”
And then all the blah-blah-blah posts as well.
Bob,
An IMET wrote me that the Carr Fire was NOT influenced by “Sundowner” winds in the traditional sense.
He said that the Carr Fire was definitely influenced by downslope gap winds enhanced by wildfire heat. It’s basically tied to the temperature differential from Redding to Eureka, CA.
The same or similar to what happened on the Grindstone Fire, so I will need research that fire now.
“Sundowners” are related to temperature difference as well. landscape differential heating.
Sundowner winds are in Northern Cal. from San Francesco to Eureka. not classed as Sundowners in Santa Barbara. The Grindstone was the Canyon the Rattle snake fire started in..
The Grindstone Fire was another name for the 1953 Rattlesnake Fire on the Mendocino NF in CA.
Here is a Wikipedia article about the 1953 Rattlesnake Fire, one of two set by an arsonist. It was also known as the Grindstone Fire because it started in/near Grindstone Canyon.
The Wikipedia article also refers to the 1953 Task Force that initiated the Standard Fire Orders: “As a consequence of the fire, there were major changes to wildland fire training, firefighting safety standards, and overall awareness of how weather affects fire behavior. The 1953 Rattlesnake Fire was one of the incidents that culminated in the 1957 Report to the Chief (the Report of the Task Force to Recommend Action to Reduce the Chances of Men Being Killed by Burning While Fighting Fire), …”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rattlesnake_Fire
A Sundowner wind is a warming, downslope wind that occasionally occurs along the south coast of Santa Barbara County. It can occur at anytime of year, or at anytime of day. But Sundowners are most prevalent in the late spring and early summer with their greatest frequency during the late afternoon and early nighttime hours, thus the reference to the sun going down.
These warming winds occur as a strong north-south pressure gradient develops between the central coast of California and the Los Angeles Basin. This pressure gradient, at times aided by strong winds aloft, cause gusty north winds to blow over the Santa Ynez mountain range that descends to the coast and beaches. This katabatic wind warms and dries out the air as it descends the mountains and displaces the usually cool, moist air at the coast. When the wind is funneled through the passes and coastal canyons it can cause wind gusts of tropical storm of hurricane force. Two cities, Goleta and Montecito, are places where the strongest winds can usually be found.
Large temperature rises occurs as these winds develop. In fact, Sundowners are responsible for the hottest weather in the city of Santa Barbara. The all time record high of 109 occurred on June 27, 1990 during a Sundowner event.
Firefighters are always on guard when a Sundowner is forecast. The combination of strong winds and very dry, hot air can cause a small fire to become a monster in a short period of time. In fact, the Paint fire on June 27, 1990 burned 5,000 acres in just three hours destroying 427 homes.
https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-blogs/clark/sundowner-winds/3289
Southern Cal the Devil winds come off the deserts with a four corner high. They are the hot winds Northern Cal the winds come off the coast drop off the coastal range into the Valley’s they start a colder wind dropping into a heated basin. They are communally referred too as sundowners/ Santa Anna’s devil winds Coastal winds They all very in speed and cause large fire to do crazy things..
**
** ‘GREEN SHEET’ REPORT ON THE JULY 14, 2018 DEATH OF
** DOZER OPERATOR BRADEN VARNEY
The ‘Green Sheet’ report ( with detail and photographs ) regarding the recent death
of dozer operator Braden Varney on the Ferguson fire has now been released.
The incident page ( and published reports ) at the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( WFLLC )…
Ferguson Fire Dozer Rollover Fatality (2018)
Incident Date: 7/14/2018
State: California
Incident Type: Heavy Equipment Accident
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=702d261c-47ca-4703-9456-138418f960d6
Direct download link for the latest ( detailed ) ‘Green Sheet’ report…
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=31654f2a-faaa-3e1c-c76b-d13a05e1d161&forceDialog=0
Among a number of ‘disturbing’ things about how Braden Varney died is the information
( along with photographs ) now presented in this report that before the soil gave way
underneath his dozer and it rolled down 250 feet ( down a 75 degree slope ) into a ravine…
the same thing had ALMOST happened to him THREE TIMES that same evening… on the same trail…
and he still kept pressing forward ( in the dark )… until the FOURTH TIME it happened… and
he then died.
The report is calling these ‘near misses’ ( before the final, fatal descent )… and they are all clearly indicated on the accompanying graphs, charts and photographs.
This ‘Green Sheet’ report actually contains a lengthy ‘laundry list’ of ‘safety concerns’ and ‘violations’
identified with regards to this recent fatality.
I think that the nighttime inversion with heavy smoke and the carbon monoxide within it got to him on the other side of the long switchback while doing his assignment.
The assignment itself was absurd and it also showed that the supervisory communication and oversight was lacking completely because they didn’t even know he was missing until AA found him the next morning. That’s way f**ked up!
WTKTT,
And thank you for posting that for me. I have never been able to successfully post any of the WLFLLC links on IM.
RTS said:
“….supervisory communication and oversight was lacking completely…..”
And, not to mention the lack of a dozer boss, who could have at the very least, possibly help prevent the accident, or else sounded the alarm after it happened.
I should say, “required dozer boss”.
Lack of supervision and/or dozer ‘boss’ could end up being one of the major contributing factors in the death of dozer operator Don Ray King on the Carr Fire as well.
See an update on that just posted above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474828
1. It is now being reported that Carr Fire dozer operator Don Ray King was 82 years old, not just 81.
2. CALFire is now admitting that the 82-year-old dozer operator WAS working as a CALFire contractor when he died, but they are also denying any responsibility for his eligibility for fireline work. The actual CALFire contract was with ‘Robert Dominikus General Engineering’, and it looks like CALFire is getting ready to throw THEM ‘under the bus’.
Whoops. Apologies. Bad ‘name’ typos in last post.
The dozer operator who died on the Carr Fire was Don Ray Smith, not ‘King’.
You might add 75% slope not a place for a Tractor.
**
** CAPTAIN OF THE ARROWHEAD HOTSHOTS KILLED ON FERGUSON FIRE
**
** TREE STRIKE
Rest in peace, Brian Hughes.
The Los Angeles Times
Article Title: Arrowhead hotshot killed in Ferguson fire, raising death toll in wildfires across the state to 8
Published: Jul 29, 2018 at 6:55 PM – By Alene Tchekmedyian
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ferguson-fire-death-20180729-story.html#
From the article…
———————————————————————————————————
( Photo of Brian Hughes, Captain of the Arrowhead Hotshots )
A firefighter was killed Sunday morning battling the massive Ferguson fire near Yosemite National Park, marking the second firefighting death in Mariposa County and the eighth fire-related death as more than a dozen wildfires rage across the state.
Brian Hughes, captain of the Arrowhead Interagency Hotshots, was killed when he was struck by a tree while working with his crew to set a back fire — a tactic designed to limit a fire’s spread — on the east side of the fire, according to the National Park Service. He was treated at the scene but died before he could be taken to a hospital. He was 33.
———————————————————————————————————
**
** ANOTHER DOZER OPERATOR KILLED
CNN
Fast-growing Northern California wildfire moves into Redding; 1 killed ( 3 injured )
By: Ralph Ellis, Nicole Chavez and Cheri Mossburg, CNN
Published: 9:03 AM ET, Fri July 27, 2018
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/27/us/california-carr-fire/index.html
From that article…
————————————————————————————————————
Residents of the Northern California city of Redding fled their homes Friday morning as towering flames from an out-of-control wildfire swept into the western city limits and destroyed residences, authorities reported.
A private hire bulldozer operator died Thursday while battling the fire, but no more details have been released.
The operator, who has not been identified, is the state’s second fire-related death in recent weeks. Braden Varney, 36, a heavy fire equipment operator, was killed last weekend while batting another blaze near Yosemite National Park.
————————————————————————————————————-
Followup…
Another firefighter has been killed on the same fire ( The Carr fire ) just hours after the dozer operator died.
This time it’s a City of Redding Fire Department employee named Jeremy Stoke.
CALFire still hasn’t released the name of the deceased contract-dozer operator.
ABC News
Union IDs firefighter killed by California blaze
Published: Jul 27, 2018, 4:26 PM ET ( Credit: Associated Press )
https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/wireStory/latest-california-wildfire-forces-evacuations-56864185
From the article…
—————————————————————————————————–
The City of Redding, California, firefighter killed by a massive blaze in Northern California has been identified as Jeremy Stoke.
The Redding firefighters union says Stoke was a fire inspector but released no other information.
He was the second victim of the blaze that started Monday in Shasta County.
Crews on Thursday found the body of a bulldozer operator who was hired privately to clear vegetation in the blaze’s path.
Officials said the fire burned over the operator as he worked to try to contain the blaze.
————————————————————————————————–
Three other firefighters on this same ( Carr ) fire have been injured and treated in-hospital for burns after being caught in a ‘heat blast’ while doing structure protection.
The three injured ( burned ) firefighters have now been identified as…
Scott Pederson, 37, an engineer, and firefighters Tyler Barnes, 34, and Brian Cardoza, 26.
Thanks for posting these.
Initial reports from an experienced WF is that this FFs death Fire and the other’s burnovers and ‘heat blast’ on the Carr Fire were the results of “an intense firewhirl. Potentially the strongest I’ve heard of as far as wind damage.”
CALFire is being pretty tight-lipped this time about both of the firefighter fatalities AND the 3 firefighters burned at the Carr Fire.
They still haven’t even released the name of the deceased dozer operator, and will only say they are working on the next-of-kin notification(s).
That doesn’t normally take 3 or 4 days.
Maybe the next-of-kin notifications HAVE taken place… and the family members simply do no WANT their loved one’s name released publicly.
Contrary to popular belief… not all families WANT all the media attention and/or all the flag-waving at such a tragic time.
The three firefighters injured on the Carr fire were all from the Marin County Fire Department. Marin County is just north of San Franciso.
Despite the lack of information from CALFire… the following San Francisco station did their jobs and contacted Marin County Fire Department directly and got their own ‘details’ about the injured firefighters.
No mention of a ‘firewhirl’. Just a blast of heat from a stand of pine trees that caught fire next to the house they were trying to save.
KPIX – CBS 5 – San Francisco / Marin County
Article Title: Three Marin Firefighters Injured Battling Carr Fire
Published: July 27, 2018 at 5:00 pm
Filed Under:Carr Fire, Firefighters, Marin County
https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/07/27/three-marin-firefighters-injured-battling-carr-fire/
The injured Marin County firefighters were protecting a home in Shasta, California when the incident took place.
They posted a photo to the Marin County public Facebook page just an hour before the incident. The Unit ID on the back of their engine reads “1568 MRN”.
They were members of an 18 person ‘strike team’ from Marin County, California, that had been dispatched to the Carr Fire.
That ‘strike team’ had been fighting fires in Northern Calfornia for 8 days straight, and the 3 person Engine team that suffered the injuries were on the tail end of a 24-hour shift when they were burned.
Quote from Brett McTigue, spokesman for the Marin County Fire Department…
—————————————————————————
“There was a sudden wind shift, where the firefront was coming from one direction and changed… uh… that caught some pine trees that were adjacent to the property… uhm… and that just blasted the three firefighters with a severe amount of heat.”
—————————————————————————
The three firefighters were forced to take shelter inside their own engine.
They were treated ( by ) their fire engine, but had to be taken to the hospital by another fire engine because the area was too dangerous for an ambulance.
The article above also has some quotes from the Marin County Fire Department Chief.
————————————————————————
Marin County firefighter Scott Pederson was leading the three man strike team.
“The men were fighting the deadly Carr fire last night, trying to save a house, when all three were injured by a sudden blast of heat,” said Jason Weber, the Marin County Fire Department Chief.
Weber also said that the injured firefighters weren’t necessarily injured by flames alone. “These are probably thermal burns, not direct flame impingement, but they have the same effect,” said Weber.
————————————————————————
** RE: City of Redding firefighter Jeremy Stokes
CALFire still hasn’t released any more details about the circumstances surrounding the death of the Redding City Fire Department Fire Inspector ( Jeremy Stokes )… but a Redding resident named ‘Tracie Huff’ has been posting the following to various public Facebook pages.
According to her conversation with the wife of another Redding City Fire Department employee ( who was working with Stokes when he died? )… it appears that Stokes was not fighting the fire directly when he was killed… but was assisting with ‘evacuations’…
————————————————————————-
Tracie Huff
I live here ( in Redding ).
I was at the market this morning and spoke with an unknown stranger who just seemed like she needed a hug. As we talked she relayed to me that her husband was with Jeremy ( Stokes ) the night they were evacuating folks. I cried with her, hugged her and told her I would pray for her and her husband, and that I was sorry she was facing this loss.
—————————————————————————-
WKTT,
I found this CBS News article titled: ” CBS/AP July 28, 2018, 11:57 PM
California wildfire kills 2 children, great-grandmother”
CBS/AP July 28, 2018, 11:57 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/carr-fire-redding-fire-evacuation-shasta-county-california-wildfire-destroys-homes-latest-updates-news/
“Two firefighters were killed in the blaze, including a bulldozer operator who was helping clear vegetation in the wildfire’s path. He was identified Saturday as Don Ray Smith, 81, of Pollock Pines.”
A contract FF dozer operator that is/was 81 years old is somewhat of an anomaly for sure.
Yes…
The dozer operator who was killed last Thursday at the Carr Fire has, in fact, now been identified.
The information was not released by CALFire. It came from the Shasta County Sheriff’s office.
Here’s another link with even more detail ( including where his body was found )…
The ( Redding ) Record Searchlight
Bulldozer operator who died in Carr Fire identified as Pollock Pines resident
https://www.redding.com/story/news/2018/07/27/redding-fire-takes-human-toll-deaths-injuries/852651002/
From the article…
—————————————————————-
Don Ray Smith, 81, of Pollock Pines was identified by the Shasta County Sheriff’s Office as the man who died while operating a bulldozer during the Carr Fire.
The Deputy Coroner Investigator said Smith was overtaken by the fire and his body was found in the area of Benson Drive and Rock Creek Road. Smith was found dead by emergency personnel.
His next of kin have been notified and a postmortem exam will be scheduled, deputies said.
—————————————————————–
The intersection of Benson Drive and Rock Creek Road is exactly here…
Decimal Latitude: 40.61471105892359
Decimal Longitude: -122.49166679421234
If you click the following link, a ‘RED Balloon’ will appear on a Google Map showing this exact location just to the west of Redding, California…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B036'53.0%22N+122%C2%B029'30.0%22W/@40.614711,-122.5089944,6467m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.6147111!4d-122.4916668
Notice that the location where the dozer operator’s body was found is actually just a few hundred yards north of the outskirts of the town of ‘Shasta’… which is where the 3 Marin County Firefighters were working to protect a home when they all received their burn injuries.
81 years old? Seriously?
CALFire “Call when needed” dozer operators have to be re certified every year in order to legally fulfill contracts for CALFire… and the ‘physical task level’ requirement for dozer operators is listed in the certification forms as ‘Arduous’.. Not sure if a ‘pack test’ is required… but ability to work 16-24 hours shifts is.
I am ‘assuming’ ( always risky? ) the investigation is going to look close and see if this 81 year old man should ( or should not? ) have been in the CALFire EERA Dozer Rotation list.
EERA is CALFire’s ‘Emergency Equipment Rental Agreement’ which must be ‘in place’ ( and re-certified every year ) for all “call when needed” dozer operators.
Several media sources identified (correctly?) that the dozer operator was “privately hired”. I took that to mean then, and still believe, that the operator was hired independently by a private property owner to work on private land. as opposed to an agency hire. That would certainly fit with the facts that have been revealed so far.
Good point… but most of the articles since Thursday have been listing him as one of the ( two ) “firefighter deaths”… and the article I just linked to above specifically says that dozer was “under contract with CALFire”.
Obviously more details will be coming out.
Here is that article again, and the parts where it says the 81 year old dozer operator was/is considered a ‘firefighter’, at the Carr Fire, and was under contract with CALFire…
https://www.redding.com/story/news/2018/07/27/redding-fire-takes-human-toll-deaths-injuries/852651002/
Quotes from the article…
———————————————————-
While dozens of homes and other buildings have been destroyed by the Carr Fire, the blaze has also taken a human toll, killing two firefighters and injuring at least three others.
Redding Fire Department inspector Jeremy Stoke was killed while battling the Carr Fire on Thursday night. It wasn’t clear, though, what led to Stoke’s death.
A bulldozer operator, who worked for a private company under contract with Cal Fire, was also killed.
———————————————————–
SIDENOTE: Even CNN is now reporting that the Redding Fire Department inspector Jeremy Stokes was killed while he was assiting with evacuations. This is now according to the Redding Firefighter’s Union, and it confirms that citizen Facebook post up above.
If that article is correct, there is no way that dozer operator was red carded.
Yep. There could be hell to pay over this.
Makes you wonder what ELSE is ‘going on’ right now out in California.
Is CALFire so desperate, at the moment, that they’re taking anyone who knows which end of the hose the water comes out of. and/or which end of the tool goes in the dirt?
Can’t recollect if anybody posted this article but there are quite a few interesting tidbits in it, especially the photos and video.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-wildfires/2018/06/24/granite-mountain-hotshots-only-brave-memorial-site/674512002/
Yes… fascinating article that came out just before the latest anniversary.
Some of the most interesting ‘tidbits’ ( finally ) coming out…
1. Despite all the hullabaloo about the Boulder Springs Ranch being all ‘fireproofed’ and ‘firewised’ and it being touted as such a good example of that… turns out Lee and DJ Helm never even gave that a thought when they ‘cleared’ their property. They just wanted a low maintenance area and ( as quoted in the article ), Lee Helm just wanted clear space to “store my junk”.
2. Despite all the designation ( by SPGS1 Gary Cordes and others ) as a ‘bombproof safety zone’ for firefighters… Lee and DJ Helm confirm that probably the only reason THEY survived was because they were in their house, stuffing wet towels under doors to keep the smoke out. If Granite Mountain had actually made it there, they probably would have had to ‘deploy’, anyway, if they couldn’t make it into one of the structures. Their animals all survived, but Lee Helm confirms that the barn itself ‘filled with smoke’.
3. Lee and DJ Helm now CONFIRM that it was 11:00 PM on SATURDAY NIGHT when they first received a knock on their door and were asked ( by former Yarnell Fire Chief Pete Andersen and others ) if they could use the BSR as a ‘Safety Zone for firefighters’ and set up an orange ‘pumpkin’ on their property. The time of 11:00 PM Saturday means that SPGS1 Gary Cordes wasn’t even in Yarnell yet. He may have ‘just’ arrived’… but there’s no evidence he was with Chief Andersen when he and the others knocked on the Helms’ door. So the decision to even designate the BSR as a ‘Safety Zone’ was made by Russ Shumate and others… on HIS shift… and NOT by Gary Cordes during his Sunday morning briefing with Eric Marsh.
4. Despite all the attempts by Mke Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of the SAI team to ‘hide’ the fact that Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson ( along with Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) were even THERE in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… Lee Helm comes right out and NAMES ‘Jason Clawson’ as the firefighter who first walked onto her proiperty from the deployment site and told of the GM deaths. The text of the article doesn’t use Jason Clawson name… but in the video interview… Lee Helm flat out says “A firefighter walked up behind me ( and informed me of the deaths ) and that was Jason Clawson”.
5. Lee and DJ Helm confirm that after the fatalities… one of the ‘officials’ who came out to the BSR ( Incident within an Incident commander Todd Abel? ) came right up to them and said… (quote) “This is a big deal… and we don’t want ANYONE TO KNOW ABOUT IT”. (unquote).
Correction for last post.
It was actually DJ ( Diane ) Helm ( Lee Helms’ wife ) who ‘named’ Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson in her on-camera interview for the article referenced above..
Same for the part above about them being told not to say anything to anyone.
Actual quote ( from the article )…
——————————————————————————————
The property filled with law enforcement vehicles, fire officials and recovery workers. Authorities posted guards so that only authorized personnel could get in. One official admonished them to keep quiet about the firefighters’ deaths. Diane recalls he said something to the effect of, “This is a big deal. We don’t want anybody to know about it. Don’t say anything to anybody.”
——————————————————————————————
SIDENOTE: Before the bodies of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were even actually found, some 2 hours after they died, the press was already fully aware they were ‘missing’ just from listening to ( public ) radio traffic.
Ditto for the moment they were confirmed dead. That ‘announcement’ ( from Jason Clawson himself out at the deployment site ) was over publicly monitored radio channels. Because of that… the news of their deaths was spreading before OPS1 Todd Abel was even told where the Boulder Springs Ranch was, or how to get out there.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474787
Got lost in the weeds brought it to the top.
On July 21, 2018 at 11:58 am, Bob Powers said…
>> We have never had a season in wild land fire that had no FATALITIES.
Regardless… I still believe a ‘fatality free’ fire season is attainable, and it should remain the ‘target goal’ of the industry at all times.
There are lots of ‘dangerous’ professions.
Most of them do NOT just ACCEPT that there will be yearly/seasonal fatalities.
>> They are all preventable but they still occur. .
I see the ‘glimmer of hope’ in your statement.
“ALL preventable”.
There is nor has there ever been a Acceptable Accident or Acceptable Fatality.
Human Nature Physically and mentally dictates accidents.
An old industrial safety Primed was developed many years ago. I can not remember the numbers that went with it. But starting from the bottom it went like this.
Hazardous occupation incident Safety Failure.
xxx exposures– near miss accidents EQUALS
XXX Accidents– Minor injuries
XX of those are serious or require medical attention
X of those are critical injuries– Hospital and rehab
ONE of those will be fatal.
All accidents are preventable The fire service trains in accident prevention continually. That has never changed.
Do to a mix of human factors the possibility of a critical injury or fatality is inevitable.
A hazardous occupation increases the exposure to accidents and fatality’s.
From Factory Jobs to Law Enforcement to Equipment operators to Fire fighters.
One misjudgment one Mistake, one failure to follow established safety rules will provide the exposure to the accident Minor to Fatality.
Humans are NOT PERFICT. They are NOT Robots. They make poor decisions for many reasons. Increase the exposure and you increase the probability of a Critical accident or a fatality.
No Body accepts a fatality. Inevitable is a statement not an acceptance. A training point in accident prevention. Humans make decisions that affect their safety both good and bad. A hazardous occupation increases the exposure and will always have accidents, injuries and yes Fatalities. Being aware of the dangers will hopefully increase safety and accident awareness.
Human Factors are always there I have had stiches, twisted ankles and close calls. I also had my father die because he failed to post a lookout and had no communications with the main fire. I have had severial friends and co workers killed on fires who failed to pay attention to the safety rules for many human reasons.
. ..
Reply to Bob Powers post on July 23, 2018 at 10:00 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Being aware of the dangers will hopefully increase
>> safety and accident awareness.
Exactly.
And ( as you said)… the keyword is ‘awareness’.
In order for the people who are still alive to know why others are now DEAD… ‘awareness’ must come from KNOWLEDGE
That’s why it is always SO important to know WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ( as much as is humanly possible ).
That’s where the ‘awareness of danger’ comes from… and the possibility of preventing that particular kind of accident from happening AGAIN.
To ‘cover anything up’ and/or not make the best effort possible to provide full ‘awareness’ does a disservice to everyone… dead AND ( still ) alive.
Cant argue with that as those are my sentiment’s.
How ever in discussing human factors and inevitable Fatalities we are not accepting reality to believe that Fatalities will and do occur as do injuries..
We as a Fire Fighter have Many types of exposures per year with Thousands of Fire Employees on every FIRE. How ever The Accident rate as well as the Fatality rate are small.
My point is that Wild land Fire Fighters as a Whole are well trained in Safety. There are no acceptable losses. In WILD LAND FIRE.
Based on 100 years of fighting Wildland Fire every year there are Fatalities. The Odds say a FATALITY is inevitable yearly.
If a Fire Fighter is on a fire and dose not believe that there are a hundred ways to die on the Fire then they need to find a desk job.
Each and every TEN STANDARD ORDER is a lesson being told to every Fire Fighter from those who died from not following the ORDERS..
OVER AND OVER AGAIN. INEVITABLE — NO DOUBHT IN MY MIND. .
**
** REST IN PEACE – BRADEN VARNEY
Another WF death this morning.
This time on the Ferguson Fire west of Yosemite National Park ( California ).
No real details yet, but it ‘looks’ like it was another dozer rollover.
Wildfire Today has already carried an article about it, and while there is only 1 PUBLIC comment left so far… it’s an interesting one.
It’s from John Moore, former Captain with the famous “El Cariso Hotshots”…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2018/07/14/firefighter-fatality-on-the-ferguson-fire-west-of-yosemite-national-park-in-california/
——————————————————————————————————–
On July 14, 2018 at 8:42 pm, John Moore said…
Fire Fighter deaths are to often and becoming a new norm,
Something is terribly wrong with our safety programs and needs to be corrected.
John H. Moore
Capt. Crew 1 El Cariso Hotshots 1966
———————————————————————————————————
“Something is terribly wrong with our safety programs and needs to be corrected.”
Perhaps Captain Moore also just read the recently released Coordinated Response ( Accident ) Protocol ( CRaP ) “Facilitated Learning Analysis” ( FLA ) document regarding the 3 Logan Hotshot Crew near-fatalities on the 2018 Horse Park Fire.
You know… the one that now says it’s perfectly fine for you to just run with your fire shelter and not worry about even having any GLOVES with you?
The Associated Press has it now…
The Associated Press
Article Title: Firefighter killed in wildfire near Yosemite National Park
Published: Saturday, June 14, 2018 – By AP Reporter Michael Balsamo
https://www.apnews.com/fa17b8c0d05f4be5b381ae02c58e5fa6/Firefighter-killed-in-wildfire-near-Yosemite-National-Park
Looks like it really was is a confirmed YADR ( Yet Another Dozer Rollover ).
He was working “throughout the night”.
Why is it always “He leaves behind a wife and two small children”.
Seems like that’s something that really *ought* to be looked at by the statistical analysis geeks… and ( perhaps ) some ‘industry wide’ WARNING issued..
Once you fall into that ‘category’… it seems like your odds of not coming home go up astronomically.
From those within the CDF and on the fire itself, it was a lack of Dozer Bosses and/or heavy Equipment Bosses as they are often referred to today. Several said, they recently worked with the young man.
Several Units are said to merely provide a qualified FFT1 to fill the position, so hopefully, that doesn’t become some kind of standard. A mere FFT1 is NOT a Dozer Boss unless trained and qualified to perform in that position.
And then there is the accountability issue, allegedly, it was Air Attack that discovered it had occurred the NEXT day! Are you f**king kidding me?
This will be interesting to see what their “investigation” comes up with.
They only ( finally ) recovered his body a few hours ago.
SFGATE
Body of firefighter killed near Yosemite is retrieved from steep ravine near Yosemite
Published: 2:34 pm PDT, Monday, July 16, 2018
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Body-of-firefighter-killed-near-Yosemite-is-13079817.php
From that article…
————————————————————————————–
MARIPOSA, Mariposa County — Crews on Monday extracted the body of a firefighter from a steep ravine that his bulldozer had rolled into days ago as he fought a wildfire west of Yosemite.
The body of 36-year-old Braden Varney, a 10-year-veteran with the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, remained in a mesh of mangled metal for three days in a site near El Portal that was too remote for bulldozers and too precarious to allow an immediate extraction.
On Monday, Cal Fire said it recovered the body with assistance from California Urban Search and Rescue Task Force 5
Varney is survived by his wife, 5-year-old daughter and 3-year-old son.
———————————————————————————–
If the area is now being described as (quote) “too remote for bulldozers” (unquote)…. then what in the hell was Varney doing even working that area in the first place… with HIS bulldozer?
Followup…
All of the current ( and going back to Friday night ) IAPs and OPS maps and Incident Documents for this Ferguson fire are, of course, just sitting in plain view ( as usual ) on the PUBLIC NIFC FTP Server.
The Ferguson Fire Folder on that PUBLIC NIFC FTP site is here…
https://ftp.nifc.gov/public/incident_specific_data/calif_s/!2018_Incidents/CA-SNF-000745_Ferguson/
On the OPS map for today ( July 16, 2018 ), there is a curious ‘Grey Box’ without a label there at the north end of Darrah Road, after it passes through Jerseydale.
Jerseydale was the ‘community’ that was at threat on Friday night, after the fire broke out, and when Braden Varney was assigned to the fire.
A few hours ago… CALFIRE published a MAP showing the ‘route’ that Braden Varney’s now-recovered body was to take off the fire and to the Stanislaus County Coroner’s Office at 921 Oakdale Road in Modesto, CA.
That map was published here…
http://www.kmjnow.com/2018/07/16/procession-being-held-300-pm-today-for-body-of-cal-fires-braden-varney-to-stanislaus-county-coroners-office/
The map route BEGINS way out on the north end of Darrah Road, north of Jerseydale.
That is probably the same route Varney took TO work that night, and that ‘grey box’ on the OPS briefing map is probably where the body retrieval operation had been taking place all weekend.
There is, in fact, an incredibly steep RAVINE right there where that ‘Grey Box’ has been drawn on the OPERATIONS map.
WTKTT
Most dozer incidents seem to occur at night. And a lot of them occur with CDF.
As a safety Officer, I recall three on a northern CA fire where CDF WFs arrogance, (in)competence, and inexperience resulted in three separate incidents within a week.
One the first two, the DIVS basically pressured the contract dozer operators (DZOP) WITHOUT a Dozer Boss or Heavy Equipment Boss, into performing their hazardous downhill fireline construction assignments. The DZOPs both scouted their proposed assignment in very rocky terrain and declined the assignment with alternative options suggested to the DIVS.
Both were threatened with demob by their DIVS if they did not perform the assignments. And both ended up performing them unsuccessfully, taking wild, basically uncontrolled, rides down through the rocky chutes and damaging hydraulic lines. Thankfully, they were both uninjured.
BOTH DZOPs had to build “roads” in order o get out of their holes. One DZOP was able to limp his way out after replacing some hydraulic lines.
The third one was kinda bizarre. We heard this CDF female. TRAINEE DOZB / HEQB talking to two DZOBs on TAC giving him repeated specific directions on turning left or right and how far. Come to find out, she was giving the DZOPs GPS compass directions down the ridgetop instead of general leader’s intent to stay on top of the ridgetop. They came to a steep drop-off decision point and one DZOP said ‘no way’ and the other one with a cavalier attitude bailed off for a wild ride.
The one that bailed got crossways on several green trees he had knocked down and rapidly slid downhill and slammed into a bunch of rocks, severely damaging his hydraulic lines.
The fire behavior increased and she called for helicopter bucket drops to keep the fire from threatening the dozer and DOZB. When that was unsuccessful, she ordered a nearby HS Crew in the same Division to assist.
Long story short, they all saved the day, however, it took them SEVERAL days to get new parts ordered and installed and build a “road” down into the disabled dozer.
Several Safety Officers, DOZBs, HEQMs, and DOZOPs asked me if “they” were going to have an AAR on the issue. II asked the IMT Safety Officer about it and he told me he had interviewd her and the matter was settled and if we wanted to have an AAR on the incident to go ahead. He refused to assit in the AAR even though he had the interview notes, etc.
I filed a SAFENET on thethree incidents and was told that because I was not “directly involved” in these dozer incidents that I was not allowed to post a SAFENET and so they would not post it nationally.
Nobody else filed a SAFENET on the incidents, so then, none ppf them ever happened because there ws no written documentation on them.
Case closed. Nothing to see here. Move along now
Geezus.
Ya know… it’s a wonder they aren’t hauling bodies off just about every single large wildfire, if that’s the way things are done.
This ties right into what Mr. Bob Powers just chimed in about.
‘Awareness’ is the key to safety and accident prevention.
If people are not generally being made AWARE of situations that cause ( or even almost cause ) serious death and injury… then there is every chance the same things will just keep happening over and over.
It is almost as if the wildland firefighting industry would RATHER have serious accidents just keep happening over and over… rather than hold anyone accountable for their behavior in/on any fireline workplace.
As one ( of many ) people who are actually PAYING for all this… that is unacceptable.
Unacceptable is right. It would scare the daylights out of ( those with functional brain cells) many, many people if everyone on every fire knew the actual factual qualifications of every person on the fires today.
A lot of this comes from ignorance. You end up working with people you can’t possibly vett properly. There’s LIES & fraudulent quals all over the place. That’s why I’ve learned to watch the fuck out…you just don’t know the history of people working in these positions.
Unfortunately, from what I’ve experienced, it’s not getting better either. I can just about promise you there all multiple HEQB out there today that can’t run the equipment they’re supervising and therefore have not one iota of a clue of it’s capabilities. It’s freaking maddening.
Task book signers & AD rate chasers…screw you, pieces of shit.
That felt better. Thanks.
And unless & until major sweeping change across the board occurs in accountability of qualifications occurs….I suppose I’ll have to agree with those who maintain wildfire fatalities are inevitable. I however reserve my opinion that these fatalities are absolutely avoidable.
This all pertains pretty well to my struggles in getting instructors for my little merry band of thugs in training…. The contractor association I affiliate with to card requires slightly higher standards than NWCG for instructors. In looking locally I have yet to find anyone who can produce the required records (5 years of documented instructing) and find it very difficult to find anyone who has taken M-410 (or equivalent). Or if someone does in fact have the experience/records required, getting the records out of the agency they previously (or currently) still work for is like pulling teeth or flat out impossible.
The reason I haven’t quit this seemingly foolish project of mine, is having come from the now known as “hybrid” side of things, I have first hand experience with fudged quals and complete incompetence on the part of supposed “qualified” people. At one time, IQS was run locally and internally – not connected to ROSS in any way… With the advent of state forestries making IQCS available to fire departments, all those quals that were entered when “we need an engine boss now!” so that a volunteer engine could go out under a wet rate and make more MONEY are now directly available in ROSS.
Oh joy.
So my theory with my little crew was to hire qualified instructors, adapt the S130/190 into an outdoor/hands-on class (which requires someone passionate about this stuff) instead of death by powerpoint, and teach real, old school, safety and values. Not standing around in a classroom spewing bullshit war stories of the bullshit instructor that never happened. We allow none of this online 130/190 shit (which NWCG is directly responsible for along with their damn structural CROSSWALK). The other half of this, is forming an outside-of-my-organization quals committee (apart from the contractor association as well) to review quals and classes as we go. I haven’t started that yet, as I haven’t been able to hold a single fucking class yet.
Because I don’t hold the views of the local contingent of bullshit artists at every level around here, I’m on my own with this, currently working this crew in the private woods to put away money to pay the fee along with travel for these apparently non-existant instructors.
The only way I see out of the current situation is to train a small army of youth this way and eventually release them into the wilds of agencies to make those sweeping changes in culture.
My big dream is being hampered by the apparent lack of anyone with the proper quals and the appropriate give-a-shit to help me mentor these guys. The only things keeping me going is the enthusiasm of these problem kids, my own normally problem causing, jackass level stubborn-ness, and the complete shock and anger over the handling of Yarnell (along with the fatalities since).
This board has been a good source of knowledge for me for the last several years, and as a former alchoholic/dope addict, gives me that old “hold my beer, watch this” type of confidence to create something out of absolutely nothing while being actively fought the whole way.
So if you all know of any rebels willing to get their hands dirty, I could use a hand….
I’m having a hell of a time trying to post this…
This all pertains pretty well to my struggles in getting instructors for my little merry band of thugs in training…. The contractor association I affiliate with to card requires slightly higher standards than NWCG for instructors. In looking locally I have yet to find anyone who can produce the required records (5 years of documented instructing) and find it very difficult to find anyone who has taken M-410 (or equivalent). Or if someone does in fact have the experience/records required, getting the records out of the agency they previously (or currently) still work for is like pulling teeth or flat out impossible.
The reason I haven’t quit this seemingly foolish project of mine, is having come from the now known as “hybrid” side of things, I have first hand experience with fudged quals and complete incompetence on the part of supposed “qualified” people. At one time, IQS was run locally and internally – not connected to ROSS in any way… With the advent of state forestries making IQCS available to fire departments, all those quals that were entered when “we need an engine boss now!” so that a volunteer engine could go out under a wet rate and make more MONEY are now directly available in ROSS.
Oh joy.
So my theory with my little crew was to hire qualified instructors, adapt the S130/190 into an outdoor/hands-on class (which requires someone passionate about this stuff) instead of death by powerpoint, and teach real, old school, safety and values. Not standing around in a classroom spewing bullshit war stories of the bullshit instructor that never happened. We allow none of this online 130/190 shit (which NWCG is directly responsible for along with their damn structural CROSSWALK). The other half of this, is forming an outside-of-my-organization quals committee (apart from the contractor association as well) to review quals and classes as we go. I haven’t started that yet, as I haven’t been able to hold a single fucking class yet.
Because I don’t hold the views of the local contingent of bullshit artists at every level around here, I’m on my own with this, currently working this crew in the private woods to put away money to pay the fee along with travel for these apparently non-existant instructors.
The only way I see out of the current situation is to train a small army of youth this way and eventually release them into the wilds of agencies to make those sweeping changes in culture. Maybe it works….maybe it doesn’t.
My big dream is being hampered by the apparent lack of anyone with the proper quals and the appropriate give-a-shit to help me mentor these guys. The only things keeping me going is the enthusiasm of these problem kids, my own normally problem causing, jackass level stubborn-ness, and the complete shock and anger over the handling of Yarnell (along with the fatalities since).
This board has been a good source of knowledge for me for the last several years, and as a former alchoholic/dope addict, gives me that old “hold my beer, watch this” type of confidence to create something out of absolutely nothing while being actively fought the whole way.
So if you all know of any rebellious souls willing to get, I could use a hand….
and, maybe we’re finally starting to get some ammo in the hybrid fight….
https://treesource.org/news/management-and-policy/pyne-its-time-to-rethink-firefighting-in-the-wildland-urban-interface/
And that is why we came up with Watch Out #19 – DEATH FROM ABOVE during the 1985 fire season and it begins with Overhead
>> Watch Out #19 – DEATH FROM ABOVE
>> during the 1985 fire season and it
>> begins with Overhead
I’ve never been into numerology… but the fact that DEATH FROM ABOVE is actually “Watch Out number 19 ( NINETEEN )“. is… well… nothing short of something in-between ‘ironic’ and just plain ‘eerie’.
**
** NEW CONFERENCE PAPER ABOUT THE 2013 YARNELL HILL FIRE
A new ‘Conference Paper’ about the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire has just recently been ‘published’ ( on June 24, 2018 ) by ‘SpringerLink’ and is now availalbe at the following URL…
International Conference on Applied Human Factors and Ergonomics
AHFE 2018: Advances in Human Error, Reliability, Resilience, and Performance pp 231-243
Conference Paper Title: It Could Not Be Seen Because It Could Not Be Believed on June 30, 2013
Authors Fred J. Schoeffler and Lance Honda
First Online: 24 June 2018
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-319-94391-6_22
Conference paper ABSTRACT…
—————————————————————————————-
Nineteen Prescott Fire Department, Granite Mountain Hot Shot (GMHS) wildland firefighters (WF) perished in Arizona in June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, an inexplicable wildland fire disaster. In complex wildland fires, sudden, dynamic changes in human factors and fire conditions can occur, thus mistakes can be unfortunately fatal. Individual and organizational faults regarding the predictable, puzzling, human failures that will result in future WF deaths are addressed. The GMHS were individually, then collectively fixated with abandoning their Safety Zone to reengage, committing themselves at the worst possible time, to relocate to another Safety Zone – a form of collective tunnel vision. Our goal is to provoke meaningful discussion toward improved wildland firefighter safety with practical solutions derived from a long-established wildland firefighter expertise/performance in a fatality-prone profession. Wildfire fatalities are unavoidable, hence these proposals, applied to ongoing training, can significantly contribute to other well-thought-out and validated measures to reduce them.
—————————————————————————————-
I don’t believe that wildland firefighter fatalities are unavoidable.
Me neither.
These are civil service jobs.
There should be no such thing as “acceptable losses”.
Woodsman and WTKTT,
The empirical data and the research in Human Factors in all fields of hazardous work supports the finding that “fatalities are unavoidable” and therefore, they can only be lessened or reduced.
Civil service jobs have nothing to do with it. And this also has nothing to do with “acceptable losses.’
Wildland firefighting has been deemed to be an “inherently dangerous job.”
I stand by my claim and will further research for others supporting the same claim.
Sorry. I’m not picking up what you are putting down.
There are lots of ‘inherently dangerous’ jobs.
That doesn’t mean you ever have to DIE doing them.
I believe there CAN come a day ( hopefully soon ) when at least 1 fire season passes and no one has to rent a Toyota Center for a memorial service.
At least ( despite any ‘statistical analysis’ )… that should ALWAYS be the GOAL.
Call me crazy… but I am one of those who also still holds out hope that one day… ( maybe even for just ONE day? )… everyone who gets behind the wheel of a car will follow ALL the “rules of the road” and pay FULL attention to what they are actually DOING… and nobody dies ( that day ).
Join the military… and you ( and the ones that love you ) can/should always be READY for you to come home in a body bag/coffin..
Take a civil service job… and you SHOULD be able to expect to always come home to your family… for your entire career.
WTKTT,
You posted this earlier “Why is it always “He leaves behind a wife and two small children”.
“Seems like that’s something that really *ought* to be looked at by the statistical analysis geeks… and ( perhaps ) some ‘industry wide’ WARNING issued..
“Once you fall into that ‘category’… it seems like your odds of not coming home go up astronomically”
This basically implies that wildland fire fatalities are inevitable .
Nope.
When your ‘odds go up astronomically’… that still doesn’t mean anything is going to happen.
It just means you should probably pay even MORE attention than usual ( because statistics are telling you you should ).
Did I mention how much I love statistics? Numbers fascinate me.
https://www.federalpay.org/employees/forest-service/legarza-shawna-a
https://www.federalpay.org/employees/forest-service/kurth-jay
https://www.federalpay.org/employees/forest-service/dudley-michael
$12,922.75/month. Not bad.
From Dudley’s page at the “Federal Pay” website…
https://www.federalpay.org/employees/forest-service/dudley-michael
“Michael Dudley is a GS-15 under the general schedule payscale and is among the highest-paid ten percent of employees in the Forest Service.”
According to this link on that same ‘Federal Pay’ website…
Pay rates for “Forestry Personnel”…
https://www.federalpay.org/employees/occupations/forestry/2004
The maximum ( possible ) pay for a GS-15 employee ( at the maximum ‘Step’ level of 10 ) is $136,659 a year.
That means Dudley actually ‘blew past’ what is supposed to be the highest possible pay for a ‘GS-15 Step-10’ employee 9 ( NINE ) YEARS AGO, back in 2009, when he jumped from $133,156 up to $141,564.
And it was still onward and upward from there ( but still as just a GS-15 ).
At his current salary of $155,073 per year… but with his ‘paygrade’ still being listed as just ‘GS-15’ ( Step 10 is assumed, doesn’t say )… that puts him $18,414 dollars ( per year ) ABOVE what is supposed to be the maximum pay for his paygrade.
WTF?
Dudley is unable ( or unwilling ) to move up to ‘ES’ level?
Human Factors are responsible for Fatalities.
Human error, Fatigue, Lack of awareness. Got away with it before push the envelope.
No amount of training in safety can guarantee that humans will be 100% accident free.
Yes there is always a small % of Fatality on every Wild Land Fire. Not just the fire but the hazards that surround the fire or are inside the fire line. It is a Hazardous Occupation. Drop your guard and you are in trouble. We have never had a season in wild land fire that had no FATALITIES. They are all preventable but they still occur. .
Yes, they are. Human Factors either keeps us out of trouble or gets us deeper into it.
So then, I think you also believe that wildland fire fatalities are both inevitable and preventable if one knows and follows the basic WF Rules.
“I stand by my claim and will further and will further research for others supporting the same claim.”
Be careful, friend, as that is one definition of bias right there.
“Not able to be prevented or avoided…”
“Not preventable.”
Your position quite frankly shocks me. It shocks me because I’m of the understanding that you have spent a majority of your career (& retirement) bucking the conventional wisdom concerning wildfire safety and accident/fatality prevention, not to mention calling out the obviously fraudulent official reports of such.
My opinion is be very careful of your claim as the very premise can inadvertently lead to a higher death toll & serious injury occurrence in the wildfire workplace because this mindset helps make it more acceptable in general.
I’m firmly in your camp as to the belief that words matter. Unavoidable? No way.
Wait…you’re testing me, right? Oh, man! You GOT me!!! Can’t believe I fell for it. Kudos, man.
Woodsman and WTKTT,
First off, I apologize to you Woodsman for screwing up your moniker in our paper acknowledgments. I spelled it “Woosdman..” Please forgive me.
I still stand by my claim. I know I read about the “unavoidable” claim somewhere in the Human Factors literature or else I would not have posted it. I’ll keep looking.
I’m not buying the “very premise can inadvertently lead to a higher death toll & serious injury occurrence in the wildfire workplace because this mindset helps make it more acceptable in general” assertion.
The POTENTIAL is always there and that should keep WFs on their guard to abide by the WF Rules lest they become a statistic. Those WFs that do follow them are fine. I challenge all of you – name me even one fire where the WFS abided by all the WF Rules and ended up burned over, entrapped, deployed a fire shelter, or died.
In the meantime, I came across this link for “Psychology preceding avoidable accidents and catastrophes.” Good stuff for starters.
It all boils down to human factors and human failures. That is the common link and it will be forever. IF all WFs would just follow the Basic WF Rules consistently like those that do and have successful outcomes, THEN, and only then, will we have the safety world that you envision.
“Killing Canadians (II): The International Politics of the Accident” deals with “friendly fire” incidents, however, good insight on the inevitability of fatalities.
“Briefly, in examining recent “accident literature” Snook finds two opposing camps. On one hand, proponents of “normal accident” theory stress the inevitability of accidents within highly complex organizations an conclude that high-risk technologies are perhaps not worth the risk after all. On the other hand, “high reliability” theorists study unusually successful organizations in the hopes of finding better management techniques. BOTH SIDES ADMIT THE INEVITABILITY, but “one sees the cup as half empty, while the other sees it as half full” (pp. 8-9) (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Here’s the “‘Practical Drift’: Why people don’t always follow procedure and can Relationship Based Safety help?” article link.
Scott Snook notes in Friendly Fire (p. 217) “that ‘near misses’ are not likely to be reported and if they are, ‘I am still doubtful that
the right lessons would have been learned, that appropriate action would have been taken.’”
Snook cautions to be aware of the fact that we are dealing with humans who are prone to pride and loyalty as well as error.
“Our tendency to blame individuals for perverse outcomes of complex incidents continues to be perhaps the most consistent findings across all accident investigations I have reviewed.” While acknowledging that individuals do make mistakes, in Normal Accidents these tend to be the final link in a long chain of events where removing any one link would likely have produced a very different outcome.” (Snook, p. 205)
It all boils down to HUMAN FACTORS
I don’t care in the least how you spell my name, friend as it doesn’t matter. No worries.
Here is a link to a paper at the infamous ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center’ ( WFLLC ) that directly relates to this discussion.
They did their own ‘survey’ about whether or not there is such a thing as ‘acceptable losses’ ( of life ) in these civil service fire jobs.
RTS asked me to post this link when he had trouble doing so.
The ‘paper’ shows dichotomy of opinion that exists even within the WF industry itself on this topic.
Some of the comments show that some people in the industry can NEVER be convinced that they are NOT actually in the ‘military’… and that they are supposed to always behave as such.
Others show that many out there ‘working’ on firelines are very much aware these ARE just ‘civil service’ jobs… and the payscale and benefits do NOT require them to DIE while in the workplace.
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=27a74181-0ae4-1432-7516-5aa62da204a7&forceDialog=0
Woodsman and WTKTT,
This post is hopefully gonna allow one of the two links I tried seven times to post in the above article
In the meantime, I came across this link for “Psychology preceding avoidable accidents and catastrophes.” Good stuff for starters. ( https://ask.metafilter.com/261668/Psychology-preceding-avoidable-accidents-and-catastrophes )
I believe wildfire fatalities are avoidable. I think you do as well. Do you?
Absolutely, I believe wildfire fatalities are avoidable, however, I also believe they are.inevitable.
I am a realist, not a fatalist
Why are wildland firefighter fatalities inevitable?
Because of the confounded, always present Human Factors element
Thank you, RTS. Would you & Lance please edit your paper that is presented to people at conferences in order to reflect your true opinions that wildfire fatalities are avoidable? Keep up the good fight, friend!
Woodsman,
It’s too late to edit our paper. It’s already published.
As I said here several times, wildland fire fatalities are both avoidable, when you abide by the WF Rules and unavoidable when you do not. It’s already included in the paper as it was in the first one.
As I said above, “because of the confounded, always present Human Factors element,” they are unavoidable.
It looks like we are gonna have to agree to disagree or you’re gonna have to let it go.
“wildland fire fatalities are both avoidable, when you abide by the WF Rules and unavoidable when you do not”
Now that I can agree with. So, in essence………………………………………..avoidable!
Come on, man. You know how much I relish parsing this out! Can’t take that away from me, brother!!! Haha Carry on, friend.
Woodsman,
You posted: “wildland fire fatalities are both avoidable, when you abide by the WF Rules and unavoidable when you do not”
“Now that I can agree with. So, in essence………………………………………..avoidable!”
Exactly, avoidable AND unavoidable depending on which path you follow performing your inherently dangerous profession.
Explain why you have such a difficult time accepting the unavoidable angle of it.
Because you’re saying it’s either/or based on behavior. Therefore I believe that fatalities on wildfires are avoidable because people’s behavior is chosen. Otherwise, the “new thinking” on investigative reports (CRP/FLA) is correct. They are implying people are not accountable for their behavior. I believe they are & should be.
…and when we talk about behavior, there is an entire topic of discussion: coerced, learned, voluntary, etc. Human behavior is a vast field of study in and of itself.
Inevitability is another topic all together. Here you are (I believe) referring to chance or probability of certain outcomes. Your common reference to a pattern of poor decisions with good outcomes is really speaking the notion of “maturity of chance.” M of C means the higher the number of attempts the higher likelihood of a certain outcome whether positive or negative. Maturity of chance is not a valid statistical model in such things as rolling dice. You can roll it 10,000 times & your chances of an outcome of any single # is still 1/6 each time you roll (attempt).
(“Lies, damn lies & statistics.” I have studied statistics beyond what was required for my education because I find it interesting)
But…firefighter behavior does not fall under the invalid notion of maturity of chance (the more times I play the lottery, I’m bound to hit it big! Ummm…..no.) I do believe the more times you escape negative consequences out of bad decisions, your probability of an eventual negative outcome increases over time. (complacency). Here is where your term “inevitability” comes into focus.
Woodsman,
Yes, I agree that fatalities on wildfires are avoidable because WFs (NOT people’s) behavior is chosen. The “new AGE thinking” on investigative reports (CRaP/FLA) is correct only to those that accept and ascribe to that bullshit. Yes again. “They” are implying that people are not accountable for their behavior and I too believe that they are and they should be.
Trust me Brother. I know full well that when we talk about behavior, there is an entire topic of discussion regarding whether it is coerced, learned, voluntary, etc. Human behavior is a vast field of study in and of itself.
Inevitability is another topic altogether. I am NOT referring to chance or probability of certain outcomes. My references to a pattern of poor decisions with good outcomes are NOT speaking about the notion of “maturity of chance.” What I am talking about has NOTHING to do with Maturity of Chance which means the higher the number of attempts, the higher the likelihood of a certain outcome, whether positive or negative.
I’m not talking about rolling some dice and making tactical maneuvers based on chance. I’m talking about making calculated tactical decisions based on the WF Rules and Guidelines – remember? The 10 & 18 and LCES!
I am in the process of studying statistics to the point of what is required for my education and I certainly do find it interesting as well.
I completely agree that WF behavior does not fall under the invalid notion of maturity of chance (the more times I play the lottery, I’m bound to hit it big!
I absolutely do NOT believe the more times you escape negative consequences from bad decisions, your probability of an eventual negative outcome increases over time. Your use of the term complacency is entirely misplaced. Complacency has nothing to do with it unless you are truly slacking, truly complacent. And that’s NOT begging the question with circular reasoning Buckwheat.
It’s then that “The” term (NOT my term) “inevitability” comes into focus when those NON-High Reliability Organization trained WFs let their guard down and forget all their basic, tried-and-true WF Rules and entrapment avoidance training.
So saith RTS by cut and pasting Wood’s post
Woodsman,
This was from a July 13, 2018, Firehouse magazine article titled “4 ways to reduce firefighter injuries and prevent fatalities”
https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-safety/articles/386872018-4-ways-to-reduce-firefighter-injuries-and-prevent-fatalities/
The Risk and rescue section was interesting even though it deals with strictly municipal and structural FFs.
“Fire service organizations in other countries have developed clear ethical and moral principles of risk and rescue. Examples include the principle that all lives have equal value, so trading the life of a firefighter for the life of a civilian provides no benefit. Another is the principle of “do no harm.” In other words, fire suppression operations should not make things worse, which is exactly what happens when a firefighter is lost or trapped in a fire. When this happens, the focus of the operation shifts from saving civilian lives and property to saving the firefighter.”
“In addition, the concept of moral duty has been more clearly developed, giving firefighters a better sense of how much risk is acceptable in different circumstances. The U.S. fire service must make it clear that we do not expect firefighters to save lives at all cost, including the cost of their own life. No life is worth a building or its contents, yet firefighters continue to die when responding to fires in abandoned buildings or in buildings where the occupants are clearly out and safe. A building and its contents can be replaced. The life of a firefighter cannot.”
How about we apply that same logic to the WFs and the Hybrids as well?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on July 19, 2018 at 2:12 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> ( Excerpts from Firehouse magazine article )
>>
>> How about we apply that same logic to the
>> WFs and the Hybrids as well?
Yea. How about it?
For starters… how about including that kind of common sense in ALL Accident Reports?
Instead… all that appears is the following ‘dance-around-the-subject; kind of bullshit…
From the recently released official ‘Facilitated Learning Analaysis’ (FLA) document concerning the 2018 Horse Park Fire entrapment(s) and the 3 near fatalities on the Logan Hotshot Crew…
On PDF page 26 ( of 56 pages )…
—————————————————————-
6. A Bias for Action
This excerpt is taken directly from “Leading in the Wildland Fire Service”, our guiding doctrine related to leadership:
On the Horse Park Fire, a bias for action was on display on multiple fronts.
As the situation deteriorated, decisions were made and acted on with a collective purpose of survival and care.
Bias for Action
Leaders in the wildland fire service are not only empowered but also duty-bound to act on a situation that is within our power to affect, even without direction from above.
This empowerment is not intended to encourage freelancing. In a high-risk environment freelancing is a dangerous and unpredictable element, causing more harm than good.
Ultimately, leaders are always accountable for their actions.
A bias for action acknowledges wildfire as an environment where events do not always go according to plan. At times during an incident, one person may be the only one in a position to see what needs to be done and to make it happen. Time may not permit informing the chain of command before an opportunity is lost.
In these time-critical situations, fire leaders use judgment, act within the intent of their leaders, work in unison with others, develop and communicate a plan, and then inform leaders of actions as soon as safely possible.
On a chaotic and rapidly developing wildfire, one person taking the initiative can make all the difference in seizing and taking advantage of an opportunity. Being hesitant, risk-averse, or indecisive can expose firefighters to greater long-term risks and translate into a waste of time, opportunity, energy, and money.
—————————————————————
So ( according to cubicle pilot Ivan Pupulidy? )… firefighters are DUTY BOUND to NOT be RISK AVERSE?
Sounds like the official stamped-and-sealed endorsement of the infamous “Risk a lot, Save a lot” approach that someone was spoon-feeding Brendan McDonough, before the whole rest of his crew perished doing that very thing.
Also gotta love this part…
—————————————————————-
In these time-critical situations, fire leaders use judgment, act within the intent of their leaders, work in unison with others, develop and communicate a plan, and then inform leaders of actions as soon as safely possible.
————————————————————-
Is that a fact?
So why ( to this day ) is it still a ‘mystery’ exactly WHY Eric Marsh insisted on bringing his Division A resources ( The Granite Mountain Hotshots ) out of the safe black, and have them embark on a risky move at the height of the burn cycle ( with no lookouts ) through a fuel-filled blind box canyon?
“Use ( good ) judgement”?
“Act within the intent of their leaders”?
“Work in unison with others”?
“Develop and COMMUNICATE a plan”?
“Inform leaders of actions”?
How about… TOTAL FAIL.
———————————————————
“In a high-risk environment, freelancing is a dangerous and unpredictable element, causing more harm than good.
———————————————————–
Yup. You can sure say THAT again.
Actually… you can say that again… NINETEEN TIMES.
———————————————————–
Ultimately, leaders are always accountable for their actions.
———————————————————–
Unless, of course, you happen to be in Arizona when you took your ‘actions’ ( or lack thereof ).
Then it’s more like “Nothing to see here. Move along”.
**
** HORSE PARK FIRE ENTRAPMENT – ‘FACILITATED LEARNING ANALYSIS’ IS OUT.
It’s just been added to this WFLLC page for the 2018 Horse Park Fire near-fatalities…
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( Owned and operated by: The U.S. National Park Service )
Horse Park Fire Entrapment (2018)
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=76bb3659-8026-4151-9dce-8b492a36b264
But go ahead and pop the popcorn!
This time there’s a MOVIE as well!
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center – Home Page
Article Title: When You Have to Run
Published: July 11, 2018 – By Travis Dotson
https://wildfirelessons.wordpress.com/2018/07/11/when-you-have-to-run/
The ‘movie’ is simply the investigators taking their own little drone out to the incident site… and then ‘flying’ the routes that the Logan Supt. took ‘runniing’ down the road… and the route the lookout took when running away as well.
Overlaid on the drone footage are people ‘speaking’ the in-their-words narrative from the report in overly dramatic fashion. It is not known if the voices used in the video are the actual people involved.
I’m still reading it but there’s already an answer to one of the questions I had.
The Logan Hotshots actually did NOT have ‘2 UTVs’ with them that day.
The 2 UTV’s seen in the video footage ( and the one used to rescue the Logan Supt. from the “gates of hell” ) were both BORROWED from the Engine crews that were there.
So Kudos to THOSE guys for bringing those UTVs.
Otherwise… the Logan Hotshot Supt. would probably have died.
( Gee… funny… just today the discussion below was about what happens if you don’t bring an ATV or UTV to a fire with you )
Still reading the Horsepark FLA… and there is a LOT of WTF going on here ( including the 1 hour and 40 minutes ‘missing’ from the official ‘timeline’ )… but got to love THIS bullshit…
On PDF page 32 ( of 56 pages )…
** TAKE YOUR FIRE SHELTER… BUT DON’T WORRY ABOUT ANY GLOVES.
This little GEM has cubicle-pilot Ivan Pupulidy written all over it…
————————————————————————————————-
What do you take with you when ditching your pack?
Ever since South Canyon we have been preaching the importance of leaving gear behind to move faster when faced with emergency escape from fire.
It seems this message has gotten through pretty well because there are plenty of recent instances of firefighters “ditching their packs.”
Now we have the question: “What should you take with you?”
Just like any situation, it depends.
But “it depends” is harder to train for.
One perspective would be, if you are at the point of ditching your pack and running with your shelter, focus on survival and only take your shelter.
Many firefighters are trained to take their radio, tool, water, and gloves along with their shelter.
That ends up being an awkward armful of stuff to run with
—————————————————————————————————
Plus 1000 for cubicle pilot. That is all.
I’m on my second read of the report… after I located my jaw under the desk and ran to take a shower ( not necessarily in that order ).
The WFLLC should actually be offering discount coupons for the following piece of merchandise to anyone who reads this report…
Facepalm Protection Glove(s)
https://doityourselfgirl.wordpress.com/
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 11, 2018 at 8:47 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And if I remember right, the FIRE had already bought
>> the GMIHC a new ATV that was just waiting to be picked
>> up at the dealership because they hadn’t bothered to do so yet.
>>
>> And that is why I think Marsh didn’t care, he was like a
>> mountain goat, especially after his mountain biking vacation,
>> he was chomping at the bit to get back to work.
>>
>> “All I need is a management code” are the magic words.
>> And the code is like a credit card number, expiration date,
Willis was asked directly by the ADOSH investigators about this Granite Mountain ATV incident.
Willis didn’t know all the details… but he was SURE that the incident was eventually designated an ‘accident’ at that Halstead fire… and so Eric Marsh DID get an ‘S Number’ to use for FREE replacement of that GM ATV.
But then Willis doesn’t say anything ( to ADOSH, anyway ) about what happened after that, or why GM did not already have a new ATV before they went to the Yarnell Fire.
Granite Mountain had their ATV burned up during the 2012 fire season, the year prior to their deaths. The incident happened on the 2012 Halstead Fire ( on the Salmon-Challis National Forest in Idaho ) where GM worked from August 22, 2012 through September 6, 2012.
So in one sense… it had ONLY been 10 months since they burned their ATV up.
In another sense… it had been a FULL 10 months since they burned their ATV up.
Does processing an ‘S Number’ replacement requisition and replacing a piece of equipment really take longer than it takes to have a baby?
I would tend to agree with you that deep-down… Eric Marsh probably didn’t ‘believe’ that true-blue Hotshots ever needed ATVs or UTVs, and that having one simply ‘cramped his old-school mountain goat style’… but according to Darrell Willis… the ‘S Number’ from the Halstead fire WAS used, and they ( presumably with Marsh’s consent ) DID order another FREE ATV.
But Willis’ story is not that it was sitting at the dealership and that Marsh was neglecting to pick it up. Willis maintains that it didn’t even arrive in Prescott until AFTER the Yarnell tragedy.
At least, that is what Willis told investigative reporter John Dougherty…
The Phoenix New Times
Article Title: Families of the Fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots Are Not Getting the Answers They Need
Author: John Dougherty
Published: September 3, 2014 – 9:23am
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/families-of-the-fallen-granite-mountain-hotshots-are-not-getting-the-answers-they-need-6649625
Willis is quoted in that article regarding the ATV being ‘replaced’…
————————————————————————————————————
Granite Mountain ordered a new all-terrain vehicle after the 2012 fire season, but it didn’t arrive until after the Yarnell Hill Fire, Chief Willis says. The ATV now sits ( as of today, September 3, 2014 ) unused inside Granite Mountain’s crew station in downtown Prescott.
————————————————————————————————————
From Darrell Willis’s second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews on 10/10/2013…
Q4 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH/WFA investigator ( Rest In Peace ).
A = Darrell Willis, SPGS2 at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire
———————————————————————————————————
1126 Q4: Well, did you hear about – about burning up a, uh, ATV?
1127
1128 A: Yep, I did, on the Halstead Fire.
1129
1130 Q4: What was that story?
1131
1132 A: Halstead Fire.
1133
1134 Q4: Okay, could you tell me what you – what you know about that?
1135
1136 A: Yeah, I – I’m gonna just defer a little bit ‘cause I don’t know many details.
1137 But I know they got it stuck while they were hauling some fuel doing a
1138 burnout. I know that it was investigated by the safety officer. And I know
1139 that the team determined that it was an accident and that they would provide
1140 us with an S number for replacement. And I think if there’s any fault, uh,
1141 negligence or anything like that, they’ll never, uh, give us an S number for
1142 something like that.
1143
1144 Q4: Right.
1145
1146 A: I don’t remember the details. It was all filed through the State.
———————————————————————————————————-
SIDENOTE: As if there weren’t enough ‘ironic’ things about the Yarnell tragedy, I still believe that if they had simply had their ATV with them in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 things may have turned out differently ( and for the BETTER ).
Think about it.
If GM had taken an ATV with them up to where they were working… then the following events would have probably been totally different…
1. Instead of relying on the Blue Ridge Hotshots to schlep Brendan down to the lookout mound ( because Blue Ridge had the good sense to bring their UTV that day ), they probably would have either had someone from the GM crew do that, or they would have just let Brendan take the ATV down to the mound himself.
2. Same in reverse. When it came time to ‘go get Brendan’ ( because he was in a dangerous place with no transportation ), GM probably would have either used their own ATV to go get him or ( if Brendan had taken the ATV down there with him ) he would have just driven back up to the anchor point himself on the GM ATV.
So now there Brendan would be… reunited with the crew back up at that final ‘rest spot’, instead of having been ‘schlepped’ back EAST to Yarnell and hanging out with the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
But does that now mean that Brendan would be dead along with the rest of them?
Maybe. Maybe not.
I would lean toward ‘not’… and here is why…
If GM had simply had their ATV with them up on that ridge… I believe it WOULD have influenced their late-afternoon decision making.
They MAY have decided that ( because they didn’t want to leave it up there and possibly get famous for burning up ANOTHER ATV just 10 months after the other one ) the best thing to do was to just STAY up there, let the firestorm pass, and then just walk/drive the ATV and everyone else back down the way they came up.
And they would ALL still be alive.
If… instead… they decided to leave the ATV in the safe black and still make the risky move towards Yarnell ( not likely but still possible )… then there probably would have been 20 bodies at the deployment site instead of 19, and Brendan McDonough would, in fact, also be DEAD.
So in a way… the fact that GM did NOT have their ATV with them that day might be one of the only reasons Brendan McDonough is still alive.
BTW: The actual Arizona Forestry contracted “Special Accident Investigation Team” themselves were the ones who pointed out that Granite Mountain’s lack of mobility ( sic: ATV or UTV ) in Yarnell probably played a role in their deaths.
Without actually saying it was a ‘causal factor’ ( because, of course, nothing ever ’causes’ anything, right? )… the SAIR itself pointed out how their lack of mobility might have contributed to their deaths…
On PDF page 59 of the original SAIR document…
———————————————————————————————————
Wildland firefighters often discuss the need to have multiple safety zones; many firefighters also identify multiple escape routes to the same safety zone, if they exist, although this can require extensive scouting. In hindsight, we know that the Granite Mountain IHC might have arrived at the Boulder Springs Ranch if they had stayed on the two-track road, although it is unclear whether the crew knew that, or how long it might have taken to get there. This highlights another problem posed by limited mobility: because the Granite Mountain IHC was on foot, their ability to scout potential escape routes was limited.
———————————————————————————————————-
“This highlights another problem posed by limited mobility: because the Granite Mountain IHC was ON FOOT (only), their ability to scout potential escape routes was limited.”
Despite the SAIR always saying “no one did anything wrong… move along”… this quote in the SAIR has always sounded for all the world as if they were TRYING to actually say…
“If they had only had their damn ATV with them, maybe none of this would have happened”.
Willis chose to ‘defer’. Slimy fuck…oh wait, I’m supposed to be understanding: nutless piece of shit. Doggone it! This isn’t working at all. Carry on…
Willis said…”I don’t remember the details. It was all filed through the State”
Yea, right.
He’s a Prescott-city-trained-penny-pinching-grant-writing-former-Fire-Chief-now-Wildland-Division-Chief-paper-pusher… and his little (expensive) pet Hotshot program just burned up thousands of dollars worth of vehicle… and Willis wants ADOSH investigator Dave Larsen ( Rest In Peace ) to believe he “doesn’t know the details” about getting it replaced and EXACTLY where that money was going to come from and/or whether or not anyone had actually filed the paperwork and had the ball rolling?
He was LYING to investigator Dave Larsen.
Based on my experience of using a lot of management codes to replace equipment it can take as few…as a few minutes. The USFS have TEAMS of purchasing experts whose job it is to get WF the things they need to do the job. I never…ever saw WF have a legitimate need that couldn’t and wouldn’t be met by procurement personnel. The PFD had even looser rules to the point I don’t think they had ant rules…just a few guideline. So…they didn’t have a replacement ATV because they just didn’t care enough to get one any faster.
And besides that, I think I remember one being available from Yarnell Hill FD. I also know where there were dozens of them that were available and just waiting for a resource order from a small army of people like I used to be whose job it was to get WF whatever they needed…period, all over the area all around them that were owned by both the USFS and BLM.
When it comes to fighting fire….the USFS Is a CAN DO organization filled with CAN DO and highly motivated people, as are most other WF organizations.
In fact, I believe they could have had a replacement ATV before they left the fire, much less the state, where theirs was burned up. Getting replacement equipment is NOT based on whether you were stupid when you destroyed it…it is based on whether you had one in the first place that was destroyed. How and why it was destroyed are SUPERVISION, MANAGEMENT and TRAINING issues.
No procurement team is going to start down the road of trying to determine whether you are a good employee who is worth any further investment by your agency in you, they just buy you things you lost.
Unless you are building a new Ranger Station just because the old one you had was too small to meet your needs. And that Ranger didn’t get stopped while he was building it…he was disciplined after it was FINISHED!
HEY EVERYONE…LISTEN UP! I have some GREAT news, I thought of a GREAT name for the Crystal Ball 🔮 those WF Mystics use to look into the future to see disasters coming so those disasters could even be AVOIDED ie WF learned how to LISTEN 👂 to the Mystics! We could call those Crystal Balls 🔮…Doppler Radar! What do you think?
Nahhh,…who wants to listen to them? That would take a lot if the excitement and challenge out of the job and we wouldn’t have as many dead heroes to celebrate 🎊.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_radar
The Granite Mountain Hotshots had at least 12 ( count em’, TWELVE ) handheld radios out there with them that day. McDonough had one with him all day, got rescued with it, and then there were at least 11 recovered from the deployment site.
12 sophisticated ( and expensive ) portable hand-held radios for a crew of 20?
Any way you cut it… that’s a LOT of radios.
And yet… they died.
There were at least 7 ( count ’em, SEVEN ) ‘smartphones’ out there with that crew that day ( not counting Brendan McDonough’s ).
They had full cellular signal strength out on the Weaver Mountains where they were working all day.
They sat there at that ‘last rest spot’ for a full 1/4 hour USING their ‘smartphones’ and doing nothing but playing tourist, taking photos and sending social media messages.
They could have easily checked ANY online weather/doppler radar service during that time.
The outflow winds coming from Prescott that day were actually APPEARING ( in real time ) on the late afternoon doppler radar of that area available from any number of sources.
And yet… they died.
It’s also been demonstrated that in less than 15 seconds, any one of them could have called up a ‘Google Map’ of the area and SEEN ( clearly ) that ‘alternate escape route’ that followed an existing trail south and all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch ( no fuel-filled box canyon traversal required ).
And yet… they died.
From all the way back in California… Joe Woyjeck knew more about exactly where his son Kevin Woyjeck was working outside Yarnell on the afternoon of June 30, 2013 ( and how FAR outside of town that really was ) than even Yarnell OPS2 Paul Musser did when he called GM at 3:42 PM and asked them to “come to town”. Musser was clueless about where they REALLY were and thought they had been right outside of Yarnell, working with Blue Ridge on the dozer line.
Both Joe and Kevin had the Mobile app “Find My Friends” installed on their smartphones.
On June 30, 2013 Joe Woyjeck was playing with his dog in the front yard of his Southern California home. He clicked on his smartphone to see where his son Kevin might be working that day and an icon representing his son popped up on a Google map, right out there at that ‘anchor point’ outside of Yarnell.
Too bad OPS2 Paul Musser ( and all the others in fire command at Yarnell ) couldn’t do that.
I guess what I am trying to point out is that even despite all the ‘technology’ they DID have with them out there that day… none of that does any good if you don’t USE it.
They could have, additionally, ACTUALLY had a ‘Crystal Ball’ yelling ‘stay where you are!’ at them… and Eric Marsh would have probably still been trying to convince Jesse Steed to ‘give in’ and make the risky move out of the black.
And ( apparently ), Jesse Steed would have still ‘given in’ and done exactly that.
It’s gonna take more than ‘Crystal Balls’ to prevent THAT kind uber-blunder from ever happening again.
BTW: Pretty STRONG emoji game you have going there in that last post. I think you have been hanging around with too many millennials, at this point.
Yes…I just discovered that I can post emojis by using my tablet. I don’t know why I never picked up on that before? But I am excited about the prospects of this brave new world.
Speaking of a brave new world, thanks for really nailing down what I was trying to say…the amount of technology that was available to them was far beyond where my head was at…staggering.
I know Fred and I strongly disagreed about using GPS units like the military does on individual troops in battle zones, but with the “find my friends” option, it sounds like it would be really simple, and really cheap since everyone already has smart phones 📱, even I have now gone to one. So…I don’t get it?
The Google Maps thing wasn’t something I understood when we started on this project five years ago…I get it now. That download was a no brain 🧠 er.
Stunning, staggering, shocking, unbelievable, the sheer level of incompetence and arrogance mixed with “I just don’t care 🤷♂️ EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE is…disappointing.
I think you might also have discovered one really big reason the GMIHC weren’t cost nuetral. They had wayyyyy more radios than I think is normal. Now…of course normal in my day was 3 radios and I do expect that number to be up…but up that far?
And of course, that is probably just the tip of the iceberg. Willis very well could have been spending money 💰 like drunken sailor on all kinds of equipment and gear that was in excess of what was resonable. I do know their salaries were far in excess of what the federal crews were making.
.
Well…. unless Willis was building himself a new swimming pool out at his ‘ranch’… there couldn’t have been that much extra money hanging around.
They should have replaced the ATV they had the minute they burned it up.
If GM simply HAD an ATV or UTV with them that day in Yarnell… everything *might* have been different just for the simple fact that they certainly wouldn’t have wanted to be nicknamed the ‘ATV Destroyers’ if they had burned up ANOTHER one.
If their ATV had been up there with them…they very well might have stayed right where they were just to make sure the ‘new’ ATV/UTV didn’t burn up on them.
I wish they had ( stayed up there ).
SIDENOTE: All that being said… just having the ATV/UTVs is no guarantee of anything. We just saw that the Logan Hotshots had TWO UTV’s with them at the Horse Park Fire… and they still almost killed 3 of their crew.
But at least one ( the supe himself ) would have likely died if one of those TWO Logan UTV’s hadn’t gone ‘into the gates of hell’ to get him because he couldn’t run as fast as the other crewmate.
DOUBLE SIDENOTE: Which still begs the question… if the Logan Hotshots had ANY ‘scouting’ to do… why in the hell didn’t they just use 1 of their 2 ( count em’, TWO ) UTV’s to do down that narrow dirt road in that canyon? No… they use a 4-wheel drive equipment laden Ford pickup that the driver was too stupid to have even ‘locked the hubs’ on so he could USE the frickin’ 4WD just in case… oh, I don’t know, like maybe you get the damn thing stuck trying to turn it around and the 4WD might actually prevent you from DYING?
Maybe the ‘report’ will tell us why the 2 ( count em’, TWO ) Logan Hotshot UTV’s were still hanging around at that staging area when the guy got his Non-functional 4WD truck stuck up in the canyon.
And maybe the report will also tell us why there hasn’t ALREADY been an industry-wide SAFETY BULLETIN to the effect of…
ATTENTION: If you have 4WD capability, make sure it is ready to be USED before you drive your ass into an initial attack in a burning canyon. The life you save might be your own ( and anyone else in the vehicle WITH you ).
Yeah…maybe the report will say all that. Ha! No frikken way, man. It’ll talk about how dynamic & inherently dangerous the job is for one or two lines…the next 37 pages will be devoted to blameless sense making. Think the SMJs will make it in there?
Remember my stance: until each & every possibility is proven impossible with factual evidence, anything is possible. (up to & including that fire going sideways catching Logan “off guard” due to rogue actions by notoriously rogue members of the wildfire community.)
I’m not ready to bust Logan wide-open yet. Maybe I’ll never have reason to do it. I still give them 100% praise for having the presence of mind to drop shit & hauling ass outta there!
Well…I’m working on winding up and hurling more spaghetti at the wall to finish up…well, technically speaking, I am now behind two such rants, one that is theoretically a response to W and to finish the other one to Diane, although I am now answering a question Diane didn’t even ask. But…but as for Dubya,, I have a whole finance rant floating around in strands in old Gary’s head right now that is really getting down into the weeds that probably won’t interest anyone in the end. It would interest you…HAL 9000, but since you base so much of what you are interested in on facts, and I don’t have any of those pertain to fire financial matters or just about anything else, but that hasn’t stopped me before.
For example (stipulating all of my usual caveats);
Fire finance is more of an art than it is a science. It used to be all art and no science back in the day, which means it was SOP to steal the candy store blind whenever you had a fire within your administrative area.
It is now much more of a science than an art where going to federal prison is at least theoretically possible, so it isn’t done much anymore.
But…here is the one point I want to quickly make just in case I don’t ever get around to my MOAP on the fire finance and Grand Theft.
The reason the GMIHC didn’t have a replacement ATV is because they didn’t care. I would say they were too lazy to order one, but I don’t think it was being lazy, I think Marsh just liked to run up and down those slopes because he was in really good shape and he had an “old school” streak in him.
So…here is the bottom line, since their machine was destroyed on a fire where it had been legitimately used and had a purpose. Therefore, the people who were responsible for the fire owed them a new one…no questions asked.
All they had to do is order it and pick it up anytime they wanted and it wouldn’t (didn’t) cost them a single penney out of their budget.
I got involved in a lot of things during my career, large scale industrial theft to benefit the home unit during fires was one of them.
And that isn’t even considering the fact that the Logan Hotshots should have had those hubs on their chase truck locked so no one could STEAL them. 😂
In other words, every fire from the smallest to the biggest becomes it’s own readily identifiable, easily trackable, and traceable administrative entity.
The FIRE pays for itself, and all costs associated with it from ignition to tree planting and erosion control with its own separate and distinct management code that can and does span multiple fiscal years.
Fire operations and dispatch centers where I worked for four years do a lot of things other than send resources to and from fires, while managing on going fire operations within their own area of responsibility. That is one reason the job is so damn BORING!
And for all practical intents and purposes, those administrative management codes are bottomless pits of money. Especially those set up by the 800 pound mountain gorilla the US Congress has given the lead to when it comes to wildfire management in this country because just like Arby’s has the MEATS…the USFS has the BUDGET..
And what they don’t have, they get from Congress in supplemental appropriations. That is what Shawn’s Legarza’s day time job is…testifying before congressional sub committees for appropriations.
That is why in her mind, the end of getting there justified the means and whether or not the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride is accurate, just isn’t important to her. I just happen to disagree with her assessment, but she thinks I am wrong because I can’t see the BIG PICTURE from her unimpeded 10,000 foot macro view from the top. Shawn’s doesn’t really manage anything, Shawna funds the Regional, Forest and District Offices where they do manage things…i.e., people, equipment…resources.
Managers don’t like to do it, because if you are an agency that isn’t directly sponsored by an outfit who can print their own money like the US Congress ,, you have to rob from Peter to pay Paul.
That is how wildland fire investigators like I once was, can track the costs associated with a given fire so they know how much the bill is when and if they find the responsible party for causing the fire.
So…bottom line, the GMIHC didn’t have to come up with their own money to buy a new ATV. The first one, yes…but when it gets burned up on a fire…no. The “FIRE” would and did…buy them a new one.
The problem comes…FYI, when the local manager builds a new Ranger Station by charging it off to a FIRE like the Jemez District Ranger did when I was on the Santa Fe. That earned him a few years in the Hall Of Shame at the Regional Office, but I think he ended up running the whole show because in the end, they probably admired his creativity, resourcefulness and can do spirit!
In other words, every fire from the smallest to the biggest becomes it’s own readily identifiable, easily trackable, and traceable administrative entity.
The FIRE pays for itself, and all costs associated with it from ignition to tree planting and erosion control with its own separate and distinct management code that can and does span multiple fiscal years.
Fire operations and dispatch centers where I worked for four years do a lot of things other than send resources to and from fires, while managing on going fire operations within their own area of responsibility. That is one reason the job is so damn BORING!
And for all practical intents and purposes, those administrative management codes are bottomless pits of money. Especially those set up by the 800 pound mountain gorilla the US Congress has given the lead to when it comes to wildfire management in this country because just like Arby’s has the MEATS…the USFS has the BUDGET..
And what they don’t have, they get from Congress in supplemental appropriations. That is what Shawn’s Legarza’s day time job is…testifying before congressional sub committees for appropriations.
That is why in her mind, the end of getting there justified the means and whether or not the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride is accurate, just isn’t important to her. I just happen to disagree with her assessment, but she thinks I am wrong because I can’t see the BIG PICTURE from her unimpeded 10,000 foot macro view from the top. Shawn’s doesn’t really manage anything, Shawna funds the Regional, Forest and District Offices where they do manage things…i.e., people, equipment…resources.
Managers don’t like to do it, because if you are an agency that isn’t directly sponsored by an outfit who can print their own money like the US Congress ,, you have to rob from Peter to pay Paul.
That is how wildland fire investigators like I once was, can track the costs associated with a given fire so they know how much the bill is when and if they find the responsible party for causing the fire.
So…bottom line, the GMIHC didn’t have to come up with their own money to buy a new ATV. The first one, yes…but when it gets burned up on a fire…no. The “FIRE” would and did…buy them a new one.
The problem comes…FYI, when the local manager builds a new Ranger Station by charging it off to a FIRE like the Jemez District Ranger did when I was on the Santa Fe. That earned him a few years in the Hall Of Shame at the Regional Office, but I think he ended up running the whole show because in the end, they probably admired his creativity, resourcefulness and can do spirit!
And if I remember right, the FIRE had already bought the GMIHC a new ATV that was just waiting to be picked up at the dealership because they hadn’t bothered to do so yet.
And that is why I think Marcpsh didn’t care, he was l8ke a mountain goat, especially after his mountain biking vacation, he was chomping at the bit to get back to work.
“All I need is a management code” are the magic words. And the code is like a credit card number, expiration date,
And I misspoke, nobody in FIRE agencies really manage anything except for those people (managers) who are closest to the ground.
Everyone else at all of the levels above that…just divide up the money and push it down to where the work is after siphoning money off for their pet projects and decide how big the slush funds should be.
The USFS etc, are very bottom up organizations where the real power is at the ground level. That is also why, just in case you are interested, why hotshot crews still weren’t carrying fire shelters in 1976 even after the chief if the USFS ordered them to be carried in 1966. The ground level bosses didn’t think they were worth the money or they worked very well…so they just ignored the Chief. It happened all of the time and probably still does.
Nobody really cared what the chief said, their job was and probably still is just to justify budgets to Congress, get the money, divide it up, push it down, be cheerleaders and other than that, shut the hell up and mind their own damn business.
Gary,
The GMHS burned up their ATV on the 2012 Halstead Fire on the Salmon-Challis NF after being told NUMEROUS times by fireline AND fellow HS Supts. that due to the radical fire behaior we were experiencing, direct attack was no longer a safe option. They were told this NUMEROUS times and their standard reply was: “We’re Granite Mountain and we thi k we can pull it off. Increasing fire behavior, spotting, and torching and the GMHS getting their ATV jacked up resulted in them abandoning it. It burned up and there is/was a photo of it on their discontinued Crew video.
McDonough would kater try to discount this fact because they knew it was having mechanical issues and that’s why it happened.
That speaks vokumes to the alleged GMHS habitual habitcof unsafe actions and their Steady Drift into Failure.
Bad decisions with good outcomes will eventually burn you over time unless you correct those bad habits. But you have to admit that you have them first, something they were reluctant to do
Funny you should post this now, I have been trying to figure out what their major malfunction was now that I have vowed not to use any profanity in my book so my grandkids can read it.
The “unintended consequences” (which is one of the effects I have been studying today) of not using any profanity…is I lose a very large percentage of my vocabulary.
But…forget my old theory I have dusted off, which I made up by connecting two effects that sounded good, but were technically incorrect. So…drop “cascading or cascade.”
Domino effect might still be good I think, but there are so many of them?
For example, “causality, chain reaction, snowball effect, self fulfilling prophecy, (which I really like for Marsh) for want of a nail, the camel’s nose, etc.”
The following one reminds me of yours,
“The terms virtuous circle and vicious circle (also referred to as virtuous cycle and vicious cycle) refer to complex chains of events that reinforce themselves through a feedback loop.[1] A virtuous circle has favorable results, while a vicious circle has detrimental results.
Both circles are complex chains of events with no tendency toward equilibrium (social, economic, ecological, etc.) – at least in the short run. Both systems of events have feedback loops in which each iteration of the cycle reinforces the previous one (positive feedback). These cycles will continue in the direction of their momentum until an external factor intervenes and breaks the cycle.”
I am definitely sticking to the Chaos theory” to describe how all fires are run for the first 36 to 48 hours and the YHF was certainly no exception to that rule.
Chaos was running that fire and Chaos was never relieved of command until it was way to late.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
My other solution is to just start using profanity again to describe what happened to our crew on the YHF and why it happened. I got that down to a science…more or less.
And to everyone…I am NOT being OCD or Anal Retentive about how to describe what happened that day and why. If those who know won’t tell me, I am going to try Wikipedia.
Funny you should post this now, I have been trying to figure out what their major malfunction was now that I have vowed not to use any profanity in my book so my grandkids can read it. The “unintended consequences” (which is one of the effects I have been studying today) of not using any profanity…is I lose a very large percentage of my vocabulary.
But…forget my old theory I gphave dusted off which I made up by connecting two effects that sounded good, but were technically incorrect. So…drop “cascading or cascade.”
Domino effect might still be good I think, but there are so many of them?
For example, “causality, chain reaction, snowball effect, self fulfilling prophecy, (which I really like for Marsh) for want of a nail, the camel’s nose, Arnold’s cat,
The following one reminds me of yours, “The terms virtuous circle and vicious circle (also referred to as virtuous cycle and vicious cycle) refer to complex chains of events that reinforce themselves through a feedback loop.[1] A virtuous circle has favorable results, while a vicious circle has detrimental results.
Both circles are complex chains of events with no tendency toward equilibrium (social, economic, ecological, etc.) – at least in the short run. Both systems of events have feedback loops in which each iteration of the cycle reinforces the previous one (positive feedback). These cycles will continue in the direction of their momentum until an external factor intervenes and breaks the cycle.”
I am definitely sticking to the Chaos theory” to describe how all fires are run for the first 36 to 48 hours and the YHF was certainly no exception to that rule.
Chaos was running that fire and Chaos was never relieved of command until it was way to late.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
My other solution is to just start using profanity again to describe what happened to our crew on the YHF and why it happened. I got that down to a science…more or less.
And to everyone…I am NOT being OCD or Anal Retentive about how to describe what happened that day and why. If those who know won’t tell me, I am going to try Wikipedia.
And I forgot to mention my leading contender as an effect that dominated what the crew led by Steel did, and why thet ended up where they did.
“The Slippery Slope Effect.”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on July 11, 2018 at 2:11 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The GMHS burned up their ATV on the
>> 2012 Halstead Fire on the Salmon-Challis
>> NF after being told NUMEROUS times by
>> fireline AND fellow HS Supts. that due to
>> the radical fire behavior we were experiencing,
>> direct attack was no longer a safe option.
>>
>> They were told this NUMEROUS times and
>> their standard reply was: “We’re Granite
>> Mountain and we think we can pull it off”.
>>
>> Increasing fire behavior, spotting, and torching
>> and the GMHS getting their ATV jacked up
>> resulted in them abandoning it.
>>
>> It burned up…
>>
>> McDonough would later try to discount this
>> fact because they knew it was having
>> mechanical issues and that’s why it happened.
>>
>> That speaks volumes to the alleged GMHS
>> habitual habit of unsafe actions and their
>> Steady Drift into Failure.
>>
>> Bad decisions with good outcomes will
>> eventually burn you over time unless you
>> correct those bad habits. But you have
>> to admit that you have them first, something
>> they were reluctant to do
This sounds more like just good ‘ol plain-vanilla ‘BAD decision with BAD outcome’.
And THOSE will ‘burn you over time’ ( excuse the word choice ) as well.
It’s an often overlooked/ignored fact… but despite its “nobody did anything wrong… move along” accident investigation philosophy… the official SAIR itself basically said ( in writing ) that Granite Mountain’s “lack of mobility” ( sic: Hadn’t replaced their ATV yet ) in Yarnell WAS a contributing factor in their deaths.
See another ( longer ) post ( and the actual SAIR quotes ) about this up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474728
This is what I think,
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474734
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474736
Reply to Gary Olson post on
July 11, 2018 at 7:01 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> This is what I think,
>>
>> ( snip ) See links above.
Good point about there being OTHER ATV’s that Granite Mountain COULD have used on Sunday, June 30, 2013… if they had wanted to.
Yes… that ATV that Cory Ball eventually borrowed from the Yarnell Fire Station late in the afternoon on Sunday had been there all day… and no one was using it.
Eric Marsh could have easily ‘borrowed’ that one and been using it out there at the anchor point.
He could have used it to help with these ‘face-to-face’ meetings he kept calling for with Blue Ridge Supt. Brian Frisby… and used it to very quickly SCOUT that ‘Escape Route’ to the SOUTH…
…but he didn’t.
And they all ( but one ) died that day.
And if I remember right, the FIRE had already bought the GMIHC a new ATV that was just waiting to be picked up at the dealership because they hadn’t bothered to do so yet.
And that is why I think Marsh didn’t care, he was like a mountain goat, especially after his mountain biking vacation, he was chomping at the bit to get back to work and run up and down mountains.
“All I need is a management code” are the magic words. And the code is like “a name as it appears on the card, credit card number, expiration date, CVV code and billing address”,all rolled into one.
Todays standard is a minimum of 7 radios for an IHC. But that’s just what I believe to be true from memory. I think I’m close though. I’ll look it up & report back…….
I was wrong, it’s 5:
https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nifc.gov%2FPUBLICATIONS%2Fhotshot_standards%2FIHC_Standards.pdf
Bendix King narrow band portables are not cheap! Personally I’d go with 7 just in case.
I recommend a spare BK radio for the assigned lookout. Super critical to maintain commo there!
Lookout = Backup Radio = GOOD
Especially when ( according to the Horse Park 72-Hour blurb ) you…
1. Realize you are in danger
2. Run away ( downhill ) from the fire.
3. Realize you are STILL in danger
4. Drop your pack… thinking about burning out and deploying… and only NOW do you finally think to make a radio call and discover ( quote from the report ) “The antenna had, at some point, become detached from the radio”.
Something is still very wrong with THAT ‘picture’… as painted by the 72-hour Horse Park report.
Random Thought zFor The Day,
Well…I made it home after spending a great week or so with my grandkids. I didn’t feel well on my way home and I kept driving into on coming traffic, off the road, and into the wrong lanes so many times it started to scare me so I checked in to a nice motel in Albany, Oregon for a couple of days and slept. The only thing worse than retirement, would be going to work. I pray all of you WF out there do the right thing enough times to get where I am at…God Bless America!
My latest exchange with WTKTT has motivated me to dust off yet another one of my Golden Olden theories about the YHF and why the crew died. It is staggering to me just how many things everyone who was running that train wreck, especially the crew, had to do wrong in sequence and at justbtgevright time in order to die.
My old theory was called “The Cascading Domino Effect.” And a truly stunning list of things had to be done sequentially , in just the wrong way, in order to achieve the end result, but if only ONE (1) thing would have been done differently that would have resulted in only ONE (1) domino being out of place, no one would have died.
How did that happen? The odds of those random events all falling into place at just the wrong time, in just the wrong way, in just the right sequence is staggering, billions and billions to one? One theory I will never accept or advance for that disaster is…Intelligent Design.
Intelligent design?
What about frienship with the Helms, polical and forestry official pressure and desire to save their jobs?
I just meant I won’t ever blame or credit God for what happened, no matter how astronomical the odds are of all of those dominoes falling in just the right sequence, at just the right time (within a less than 15 minute window).and in just the right way.
As far as the things you mentioned…yes I agree. In fact someone should write a book and tell the truth about the fire.
Of course it would have to be someone who doesn’t care about making money because very few books will be sold and the movie has already been done, someone who is immune to lawsuits because they don’t have anything except a monthly pension check that is protected by federal law and someone who has a long history of calling balls and strikes like he sees them, and finally…someone who has already done the hard part….naming the book, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters.” If I find that person, I will blog about it here.
How likely is it that a wealthy landowner in Glen Ilah area appealed to Marsh as well as forestry and state officials to protect their property on the afternoon of June 30,2013? In spite of the danger Marsh may have thought the crew could accomplish this task and was willing to pull out all the stops to prove that his crew was invaluable to the Prescott area.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
July 12, 2018 at 12:23 pm
>> Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> How likely is it that a wealthy landowner in Glen Ilah
>> area appealed to Marsh as well as forestry and state
>> officials to protect their property on the afternoon
>> of June 30,2013?
There is still no real evidence anything like that ever took place at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
However… it still remains curious that following Darrel Willis’ initial evaluation ( on Saturday night, as SPGS2 ) of the NORTH side of the fire ( the Peeples Valley, Model Creek Road area ), he was of the opinion that the ‘Double Bar A’ Ranch out at the end of Hays Ranch Road was ‘not defensible’…
…but the very next morning he is out there with Engine Crews making a massive effort to protect the place. That was even where the first ( very expensive ) VLAT retardant drops took place in Yarnell right around NOON on Sunday.
None of that worked.
Just as Darrell Willis had predicted on Saturday night… those ranch dwellings were NOT ‘defensible’ and the place burned to the ground anyway on Sunday afternoon, despite that massive morning effort to ‘defend’ it.
It’s never been clear who ( or what ) changed Willis’ mind on that between Saturday night and Sunday morning, or who may have just TOLD him to devote all those resources ( and money ) to trying to defend a place he had already decided was ‘not defensible’.
But even that was up there on the NORTH end of the fire.
There is still no evidence that any particular ‘land owner’ or ‘property owner’ was trying to ‘pull strings’ or ‘influence’ the operations down on the SOUTH side of the fire where the Hotshots all died.
I am not saying it didn’t happen.
At this point… and with so much that is still not known… just about anything remains possible, I suppose.
I am just pointing out that there is still ( even now ) no real ‘evidence’ anything like that took place.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> In spite of the danger Marsh may have thought the crew could
>> accomplish this task and was willing to pull out all the stops
>> to prove that his crew was invaluable to the Prescott area.
That is still much more likely than your first question above… but the ‘task’ you are talking about would have been more just a generic “Let’s go be HEROES!” approach.
There probably still hasn’t been near enough discussion about how much PRESSURE Eric Marsh was constantly under ( most of it coming directly from his boss, Darrell Willis, but a lot of it coming from Marsh himself ) to keep that Granite Mountain Hotshot program ‘viable’ and not end up on the Prescott City Council’s penny-pinching chopping block.
It’s even in writing in Marsh’s own personnel file.
Darrell Willis was telling Marsh ( in writing ) how important it was for Granite Mountain to ‘stay successful’ and Willis even told Marsh ( in writing ) it was now “up to them” to save the program from the penny pinchers in Prescott City management.
FYI. This is the latest YH Fire eyewitness website posting which includes many never seen photos and videos near the BSR / Helms on the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/07/08/Will-the-fire-community-benefit-from-the-%E2%80%98lessons-learned%E2%80%99-concept-and-sustain-a-%E2%80%98safety-culture%E2%80%99-when-all-the-wildfire-fatality-investigationsreports-are-based-on-predetermined-conclusions
Here’s a WTF June 30, 2014, YouTube video about the GMHS (“Team of 12 had sacred task of recovering bodies of fallen hotshots” ABC 15 News Arizona) that you will hopefully find very disturbing. The one speaking is Prescott Fire Captain from 1994 to 2015 J.P. Vicente (he is erroneously referred to as a Fire Chief in the video) He makes a bizarre statement beginning at 2:23 to 2:32.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXYc0f_MIlQ
“They’re all heroes. And they did what they loved doing. AND THEY WOULD DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN IN A HEARTBEAT. I’M TELLING YOU RIGHT NOW. THEY WOULDN’T CHANGE A THING.”
Are you f**king kidding me!? They would do it all over again in a heartbeat and would not change a thing!
WTF. Isn’t that the definition of insanity, doing the same things over and over expecting a different outcome.
Well…that poor man has some even poorer coping skills. I rarely read comments on things like this, but I am EXTRA bored tonight…so I did. I was actually quite surprised how many insightful and very accurate comments there were. I don’t know if that link will work or not, but if not…it comes from Michelle about 3/4 of the way down. She is very succinct and used only one word, which I really liked. Her response….”Hardly.”
I think the whole “wouldn’t change a thing’ has emanated right from the core group of PFD deniers led by Willis from the very first moments of this disaster. If they admit anything needed to be changed…they open the door to things were done wrong….obviously. And those very bad people would rather risk WF lives in the future than admit past mistakes.
There is another comment closer to the top I also really liked from someone, whose name I have already forgotten clearly knew Eric Marsh quite well and said words it the effect that Eric finally got what he wanted, which was a little to succinct for me. I would like to know more about what he knows.
So my point is this…the cascade is cracking and starting to break down. In a few more decades…men like former Prescott Hotshot Crew Boss from back in my day, Tony Sciacca will quit being such a lyin’ little bitch whore (non gender specific) and man up and start living up to his current gig, which is something about being a WF Safety Officer…hahahahahaha…fuck you Tony! You little man bitch.
Gee…sometimes I don’t know what to say about my own coping skills?
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCTqSY6Lk-_bmdGQOB6WSAww
Fascade…not cascade. And that liked worked pretty good so I went and founded the guy who knows some things I would like to know.
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCoWfnVFOM1se-ppCUhSRYtA
Link…not liked and found…not founded…damn, I’m going to bed!
W,
Damn man…for a non federal 462 nuckle dragger type you have some wicked writing skills.
Oh…and one more thing. The guy who did the pole dance strip down to his tight red bikini underwear in Mexico, he had a 1950’s military haircut, he was built like a Russian power lifter who stood about 6’5” and weighed about 240 with very broad shoulders with a smaller waist because you know…he was still kinda fat.
But that man could dance! It was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. I felt guilty for watching and yet I couldn’t force myself to avert my eyes because it was so fascinating, and mesmerizing to watch. And yet…the entire experience made me feel so guilty…and dirty at the same time. There were several hundred Mexicans in the packed house and they went crazy with cheers and applause, I think he started working there part time on his days off after that
And FYI, my very limited experiences in Mexico are dated to the mid 1980’s through the 1990’s when there were rules down there and having the charred and decapitated bodies of Americanos hanging from overpasses would have been bad for business. You couldn’t pull me across that border today unless you had a team of wild horses and that includes to places like even Rocky Point and Cancun.
RTS,
And yes, I realize that none of that has much to do with the Yarnell Hill Fire, so please allow me to recap for you.
1. It is a bad idea to make a granite memorial for the GMIHC based on their fictitious love for some stupid trash tree that doesn’t even make good firewood unless you have a really good screen because it will burn your house down with you in it after you go to bed because it pops embers so bad.
2. The entire concept is based on the false narrative generated by stupid people talking to other stupid people through other stupid people about a stupid false legend generated by other stupid people and ONE (1) stupid gag photo the crew took with a stupid tree because they really hoped it would go up like a Roman Candle in spite of their best efforts during the Doce Fire.
3. For example, just because we took ONE (1) stupid photo with orange traffic cones on our heads doesn’t mean that if we would have killed ourselves a few days later we would have wanted to been memorialized in granite for all time and eternity by a memorial with stupid orange traffic cones on our heads because the photo was a gag photo, just like their assignment to protect that stupid tree was a joke!
And I am glad WTKTT knew the truth about that stupid incident. In addition, if that guy would have been killed on that drug op, I didn’t originally think he would have wanted to be memorialized in granite wearing red bikini underwear doing a pole dance. And then I decided that is EXACTLY how that guy would have wanted to be remembered, so that was a bad example.
4. In any case, all hotshot crews should carefully consider what gag photos they want to have taken in the future because stupid people like those who live in and around Prescott might decide just because you took ONE (1) stupid gag photo with ONE (1) suicide victim on your way to a fire on the Tonto…that might be the best way to remember and celebrate your entire body of work as a hotshot crew on a memorial. So heads up, have strict control over the release of gag photos…or don’t take them in the first place.
Please stop the madness now, so I don’t have to look at that stupid FUCKIN’ Alligator Juniper tree carved in marble just in case I ever go back to Everybody’s Home Town and take a stroll around the courthouse, which just happens to be y home town for real since I am a product of the Miller Valley Grade School through Yavapai Junior College with an AA degree before I laundered it through NAU for a BS degree.
And I deeply regret to inform all of you stupid fuckin’ people from Prescott and the surrounding countryside I am a true “Son Of Prescott.” Don’t hate me because I am you. “We have met the enemy and he is us.” (Walt Kelly, creator of Pogo).
Whoops, I forgot to include my greatest claim to fame. I got my start in life as an entry level Wildland Firefighter at 19 with the PRESCOTT NATIONAL FOREST, Walnut Creek Ranger District at both Camp Wood and the Walnut Creek Work Centers.. That was some old school starting entry level living the right way back in the day..no indoor plumbing in the middle of no where.
Say…did I ever mention my grandfather was a Wildland Firefighter on the A Bar S National Forest in the White Mountains and he was killed by bad dynamite while building another logging road for the USFS? It took him three days to die at the White River Clinic on the Apache Indian Reservation and they say he hung over the end of the bed by six inches because he was 6’6”” tall. Yes…well it’s been a while. I have some serious USFS WF street creds few people can beat…except for Bob.
Oh…and one more thing. My son has a Masters Degee in Forestry from NAU and he now works as a silviculturist for the USFS. Now THAT my best friends and confidants…is some serious cycle of life stuff…right?
Don’t hold it against my son though. He doesn’t speak to me and even hates me because I was such a terrible father!
It turns out raising kids like they were FNG’s on a hotshot crew wasn’t either the best short term parental tactic or best long term strategy. Go figure?
I will tell you one thing for sure though, they all knew how to stand up, water up, saddle up, tool up, line up, shut the fuck up, listen up and then hump up the mountain…of that you can rest assured!
That’s okay though, I am visiting my grandkids right now. Two of them think I’m a swell guy because I have a pocket full of money, a vehicle, a drivers license and I know how to order lots of toys from on line stores.
I will post photos of me holding my two week old granddaughter on my website when I get back home.
Thanks, Ol’ G.
I was always aware that Dr. Putnam was “the man” when it comes to wildfire accident investigation, I just never knew that he was “THEE MAN!” In honor of his gift to us in fire line safety knowledge and in particular the concept of human factors, I’ve decided to devote the rest of my mediocre career to speaking up about all areas in which we should improve how we do business.
In the spirit of my personal and professional miniature one-knuckle-dragger safety crusade, I’d like to know if you (Gary) or any other experienced wildland firefighters would like to “go there” with me? I’ve alluded to something over the years which I believe should be talked about. If you are game then I have a question for you. You game?
Yes…I don’t have your gift for writing or speaking and I am often too colorful in my writing style for most people, but I do know that Dr. Putnam is and always has been my inspiration and hero in all things pertaining to wildland firefighting safety and I do think he is on to something everyone thought everything was already known about the Mann Gulch Fire of 1949 because of the book “Young Men and Fire”, but that of course is the difference between, “talking the talk…and walking the walk” i.e., Putnam versus MacLean and with all of that being said, I will do anything I can to stop or even delay the next Yarnell Hill Fire type disaster because one thing we know for sure, it’s not a question of if…it’s a question of when.
Have you ever witnessed or heard a firsthand account of wildland fire personnel taking an action or inaction which common sense would dictate a wildfire would grow in size or become less controllable because of the action or inaction? If so, in your opinion, how common an issue (if you believe it happens or has happened) is this phenomenon & what were the factors that influenced this behavior?
I have been on a fire where our crew just about begged line supervision to allow us to keep working a little longer because of serious threats to the control line had we abandoned it for the evening…& were unsuccessful in convincing them. (went BIG after that) I have been on fires where our nighttime work was lost by the day shift like clockwork. (I realize weather conditions are a major factor here too but I’m not an idiot). I’ve witnessed IMTs bragging that our fire is now priority in the country. I’m not sure whether they were happy because it would open up more available resources or if there was another reason to boast? It seemed like the teams were competing with one another.
If you read Dr. P’s paper, there is a very, very concerning statement of account in there dealing with what I’m talking about. Maybe someone can quote it here?
I have many topics to discuss but after reading that from someone with very high integry, I just cannot get this one out of my head.
I want to know what Gary, RTS, Bob, & anyone else has to say about it. This is a topic where the rubber meets the road in terms of honesty & integrity.
By the way, how do you old timers remember the names of all the fires you’ve been on? I remember where I’ve been & what I’ve done by not all the names. Just me?
In closing, if the subject I’ve broached is real & you know it, who’s going to do the right thing & admit it?
Thanks in advance.
Well…it was pretty darn easy back in the day for us. The USFS had a form we filled out. It was called something like, “Individual Fire Record” and it had a column for the name of the fire, where it was, what your position on the fire was, dates you were on the fire, and how big the fire was.
The only thing that was/is a little fuzzy for me is knowing where on the spectrum of a class A. B, C, D, E, F and G? the fire that you were on…fell within the size parameters. I haven’t looked at one in years, but I do have all of mine and I can tell you every fire I was ever on and the basic information about it
I think Class A was less than 1/4 acre, whereas a G was like…Over 200,000 acres. I will pull out my folder marked…Fire records and get back to you on this one unless someone else has theirs handy? And I guess beyond a certain point, it really doesn’t matter how big the fire is? All that mattered to me was my piece of the fire line.
Part of my Number 2’s job was to fill those out for everyone after every fire. And somebody else filled mine out before I was crew boss. I know it was my assistant’s job to fill them out because those forms fell into the duties and responsibilities of his position description because they were related to, and actually fell intim“paperwork” and therefore was squarely in the “No Fun” category…hence it was part of his job.
I liked to hold myself in reserve for some of the bigger picture jobs after we got home from every fire…I kind of took on the macro 10,000 foot view, which primarily consisted of me hanging out in the kitchen and bullshitting with our crew cook. He was hilarious and could do a stand up comedy routine at the drop of a hat….or frying pan, or whatever.
And after I pretty much had that under control…I just wandered around bullshitting with everyone else until all of the chores to get ready for the next big one were done and it was time to play volleyball.
During my years as crew boss, our cook was named Jack. Jack had been drafted and after basic training he got his orders from the Army…Infantry Grunt with his next Duty Station somewhere in the Republic Of Vietnam.
Jack thought that was a good time to alert the Pentagon that he was a classically trained chef and had graduated with honors from the Le Cordon Bleu School and International Institute. As a result, he was promptly redirected to the Pentagon and spent his war years serving Danish on silver trays to the Joint Chiefs Of Staff. And that…is a no shit story.
Jack was a wage grade employee and made a lot of money compared to me. He went on every fire he could with us to fill out the crew and then he really made some big money. I think he was a Wage Grade 11 or 12.
Anyway…that man could really cook! I mean…he really was a really great chef! I saved his life one day after we got back from a fire while I was beginning my usual chores by catching up on the compound and district gossip while I had been gone.
Jack was cooking some land stew for the crew to have a special lunch. Normally…we made our own lunches from everything the Assistant Cook put out while Jack was cooking everyone’s cooked to order breakfast, but on our Camp Days (Sunday) and after returning victorious from yet another campaign fire victory…Veni Vedi Vici, Jack liked to cook something special as a hot lunch for the boys.
Anyway…Jack was sampling the lamb stew and he started choking and drooling all over the floor while grasping at his throat. I said, “Damn Jack…you’re making me sick to my stomach” so I went outside so I didn’t have to watch whatever Jack was doing. It honestly never occurred to me he was choking to death on a lamb bone that was lodged in his throat.
Anyway…Jack staggered down the steps to the kitchen after me and by that time his face was turning black. They hadn’t taught the Heimlich Maneuver at that point that I knew of, so I didn’t know what to do so I panicked and started pounding on his back…and a little lamb bone popped out of his mouth.
Well…we were both pretty shook up and Jack sat there and swore he was going to go on a diet, never eat junk food again (Jack was the informal squad boss of our Pod Squad, plus he was really short) and turn his life around.
About that time my Number 2 walked up so I had to recount the story about what a hero I was to him in great detail. About the time I finished Jack came back down the steps stuffing a Twinkie in his mouth! Jack looked at me and said, “When you get bucked off the horse….you have to get right back up in the saddle again.”
That man could make us laugh and that gift was invaluable in the middle of long, cold night shifts staggering around like zombies moping up acres and acres and acres of black, hour after hour after hour after hour from 1800 hours until 0600 or 0700 or 0800, or usually later because there were delays with the relief crews somewhere, always delays, night after long cold night shivering and fighting to stay awake while falling asleep standing up.
You could never carry enough clothes to stay warm on the fire line…everything was about trying to strike just the right balance between needed line gear to survive and pack weight, but never getting it right. Unless you were SWFF liked Fred and I talked about years ago. Stuff a sack lunch or rat in your fire shirt and an industrial garbage bag in your pocket to use aponcho. strap two flimsy canvas covers with two cheap flimsy plastic quart canteens on your fire shelter belt and call it good.
Those are some tough crews who never complained. They also never picked up any of their trash after they ate lunch, but they never complained and there isn’t any Veni Vidi Vici for them…ever, all they get are the mop up shifts I described above.
I already told the story of our first crew cook (Bob) before I was crew boss. Vietnam combat vet who would hurl frying pans in a blinding rage against the wall whenever the omelette he was cooking wasn’t going exactly right while screaming obscenities at the world. That is what woke us up in the barracks every morning. Bob never made us laugh on fires because he was always…cranky. But..he was one hell of a good cook and a good hand when we needed him to fill out the crew to go off forest. Bob couldn’t come close to Jack in cooking skills, but then again, he didn’t graduate with honors from Le Cordon Bleu.
Now this…this was Bob!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMQx5WwVg2g
As far as the other stuff went, that was above my pay grade. Like we have talked about before, I think the hotshot crew boss changed and became more complex after I left the fire line in 1984, with the standardization and professionalization of hotshot crews.
I never worked on fires above the crew boss job on fires like Eric Marsh did on the YHF. And I never saw my crew bosses before me do it either. And I never saw my contemporaries do it. I’m not saying it wasn’t done, I’m just saying I never saw it done. We were ordered as crew bosses with our crews and that was the position we filled.
There was NONE of this bare bones skeleton fire team ordering and then strip overhead from crews to fill in the gaps they deliberately created. The USFS didn’t fight fire that way, which is deliberately creating a management crisis and shortage. And that in turn led to the deaths on the YHF as I explained to JD the very first time he ever interviewed me.
Making Eric Marsh Division Aloha rather than ordering up either a full fire team or a skeleton fire team and then ordering up needed overhead…they saved money for each and every position they deliberately shorted.
That REMOVED AND NEGATED the built in institutional check and balance to insure the hotshot crew boss isn’t Division Alpha and in a position to givie direct orders to his assistant crew boss, who has stepped up, but in reality…is still the Number 2 who is taking orders not from John Q. Fuck You, but is taking orders from his BOSS back home, not some jerk off he doesn’t know, or care if he knows and will never see again or care if he ever sees again.
That is fire management by CANNIBALIZATION, and INCEST rather than following established protocols and “best practices.”
Anyway…I was never in a position to have the kind of experiences you are referring to, those things were above my pay grade.
My exchanges all went like the example below except for the one time it went different on the Scott Fire of 1983 on the Coronado, and if anybody has forgotten that one, I would love to repeat it…again and again.
Me: What do you want us to do?
Sector Boss: You are the hotshot crew boss, this is the first fire I have been able to get out on this year and I couldn’t make it out on any last year or the year before that because I am the timber staff, or range staff, or recreation staff, or landscape architect, or civil engineer back home and I have just been to busy.
Me: I think we should cut fire line and burn it out, or cut fire line and backfire it, or cut fireline and burn it out and backfire it until we stop the fire and then we should start moping it up until enough SWFF crews get here to replace us.
Sector Boss: Sounds good. Call me on the radio if you need anything…bye!
There are several auto correct mistakes like “use as a poncho” and Alpha…not Aloha, but you will probably get the gist of what I was trying to say, but here kept the Readers Digest Version in case you don’t have time to read my entire post.
USFS…fight fire GOOD!,
State of Arizona…fight fire BAD!
Now this…this was Jack’s signature song he would bust into somewhere on the slope in the black, just as the sun was strarting to come up.
And no matter how miserable you were, how cold you were, how hard you were shivering, or how much of a zombie like state you were in…when Jack busted out in his deep baritone with, “I couldn’t sleep at all last night!”
You knew you had survived one (1) more hellish freezing cold night shift mopping up black as far as you eyes could see!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3uEPDEJbJu0&t=0s&list=PLzNPiMa-b0cHlZAEXYMa7_yHrgr1WI_nV&index=2
You guys had your own chef? No wonder you miss those days!
Back to my primary question which unfortunately I made unclear due to multiple topics in 1 post.
Did you ever witness firefighter(s) deliberately making sure the fire “went big?”
Well..I did understand exactly what your question is, but apparently I didn’t answer it very well, so let me try again.
I was a hammer…all wildfires were nails…I pounded all nails until they were flush. And then I countersunk them.
That is who I was….that is what I did…that is who the people I worked with were and what they did.
Nobody ever asks a hammer if the hammer thinks the nail should be pounded on only a little bit.
The hammer doesn’t think like that. The hammer doesn’t think at all. The hammer pounds the nail. Nobody ever asks the hammer what it thinks and the hammer doesn’t care nobody ever asks it what it thinks. A hammer doesn’t exist to think…it exists to pound nails.
Everyone who knows or has seen a hammer pound a nail, would never put their hand between the hammer and the nail.
I was a hammer. I pounded nails. Wildfires were my nails. I pounded them…period.
That is how I was trained. I didn’t know there were options. I liked pounding nails. It gave me a sense of purpose and of belonging to something bigger and better than myself…a higher purpose if you will.
IF anyone would have ever ask me or even suggested we let s fire get “bigger” for any reason…that person would have looked like a nail and I would have pounded them flush. And then I would have countersunk them so no one would have ever known they even existed.
There is right and there is wrong in this world. Doing things like that are…wrong. And everyone who has ever known me would have been afraid to ask me that question. I don’t believe I ever knew anyone who didn’t think like I did about wildfires.
But then again…I was a hammer, nobody really cared what the hammer thought, not even the hammer.
With the professionalization of hotshot crews they created a whole different bag of hammers. They were smart hammers, air hammers, pneumatic hammers, people cared what they thought and ask them. Maybe some of them were asked about things like that.
They took active roles not only in executing operations, but in planning them. In those scenarios there are options, choices, variations, alternatives…I guess? I don’t really know much about it.
I was a hammer…a big carpenters hammer to be more specific.
Well..I did understand exactly what your question is, but apparently I didn’t answer it very well, so let me try again.
I was a hammer…all wildfires were nails…I pounded all nails until they were flush. And then I countersunk them.
That is who I was….that is what I did…that is who the people I worked with were and what they did.
Nobody ever asks a hammer if the hammer thinks the nail should be pounded on only a little bit.
The hammer doesn’t think like that. The hammer doesn’t think at all. The hammer pounds the nail. Nobody ever asks the hammer what it thinks and the hammer doesn’t care nobody ever asks it what it thinks. A hammer doesn’t exist to think…it exists to pound nails.
Everyone who knows or has seen a hammer pound a nail, would never put their hand between the hammer and the nail.
I was a hammer. I pounded nails. Wildfires were my nails. I pounded them…period.
That is how I was trained. I didn’t know there were options. I liked pounding nails. It gave me a sense of purpose and of belonging to something bigger and better than myself…a higher purpose if you will.
IF anyone would have ever ask me or even suggested we let s fire get “bigger” for any reason…that person would have looked like a nail and I would have pounded them flush. And then I would have countersunk them so no one would have ever known they even existed.
There is right and there is wrong in this world. Doing things like that are…wrong. And everyone who has ever known me would have been afraid to ask me that question. I don’t believe I ever knew anyone who didn’t think like I did about wildfires.
But then again…I was a hammer, nobody really cared what the hammer thought, not even the hammer.
With the professionalization of hotshot crews they created a whole different bag of hammers. They were smart hammers, air hammers, pneumatic hammers, people cared what they thought and ask them. Maybe some of them were asked about things like that.
They took active roles not only in executing operations, but in planning them. In those scenarios there are options, choices, variations, alternatives…I guess? I don’t really know much about it.
I was a hammer…a big carpenters hammer to be specific.
Oh…and one more thing. As a carpenters hammer, I pounded nails…period.
IF…you have seen that stupid movie, Eric Marsh was talking all kinds of trash I didn’t even pretend to understand about, “I want to do this that and some other things about this and that and some other things and you guys go here and do this that and some other things about this and that and we will go here and there and do all kinds of other things.”
He confused the hell out of me because I couldn’t ever figure out what the hell he was talking about.
So….let me repeat, for me, back in my day, we did one of the following.
1. We cut fireline and burned it out.
2. We cut fireline and backfired it.
3. We cut fireline and we burned it out AND backfired it.
And IF the crew boss said it was Easter, we immediately started searching for Easter Eggs no matter what day the calendar said it was.
It was all pretty fuckin’ simple.
Sounds like you didn’t screw around. Thanks!
….and I’ll take that as a “no” for your answer. Thanks
The only thing I ever saw was Lazy Pickup Crews they generally never finished their jobs and we would end up backtracking their leftovers. I do not know if they did this on purpose but could be. As a Sector Boss and a Crew boss I was always making sure the line was complete.
Thanks for the feedback, Bob.
It’s been a long while since I have had to break a comment into
Well.now that I have told you what I know I know, I will now tell you what I think I know.
My main concern is to always defend how I view myself because that is how I want others to see me as well.
And I see myself as a grunt and a ground pounder with very highly specialized experience in a very narrow area of WF.
And you know I like to brag I never worked in any overhead capacity except for the one time circumstances forced me to step in literally on the tarmac and take a Taos NF Type II Crew of lazy worthless WF who were more like an organized criminal gang than they were a fire crew because the CLO didn’t get to ABQ in time to catch the charter jet to the pacific Northwest (Washington) for a few weeks of chasing an escaped burn over Thanksgiving. My assistant of course was there to step in for me with our crew, but as I wrote above, we just didn’t do that.
And as a result of my very narrow experience, I have a very narrow outlook, but I already covered all of that…so here I go!
1. I never even caught a hint during my entire career that even the people I think the very worst of…BLM managers have ever done anything for personal enrichment in terms of what most people think of as corruption. That is unless you consider both keeping your job and advancing to much higher jobs as personal enrichment, which I do. Not to punch on my favorite punching bag…Shawna Legarza, oh never mind, I am going there. If she would have done the right thing pertaining to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride, that MIGHT have helped avert or minimize the YHF disaster and as I have written before, even if it were a 1% chance…I would take it. But if she would have done that, she would have demostrated a strong sense of right and wrong, honor, integrity, honesty, courage, etc. and she would have done well in life because she is a very competent, intelligent, highly motivated and impressive person as I have written many times. I don’t know where her top would have been if she were a good person, probably a Forest FMO as a GS 13. I don’t even know what she is now, maybe a GS 15? And without running the numbers, I would guess the difference would be 1 million or more dollars over a lifetime including retirement because she shot up very far and went there very, very, very fast which gives her years…decades to rack up the steps. A GS 15 Step 8 or more with some QSI’s, (I myself received 4 and each one was worth more than 100 grand) now that’s what I’m talking about! So…here is the question. Did Shawna commit fraud for 1 million dollars? I think you could make the argument she did just that, but she didn’t do it because someone offered to hand her one million dollars. That is a really long story to explain I don’t think and I have never thought…Joy is going to find what she has always looked for and so I haven’t even gone to her website yet. I love Joy as all of you know…I just think she goes after things I don’t see., which is why I took a lukewarm approach to what I perceive W is asking about, I think I was also a little naive in my initial response, so I am trying to walk it back or walk it sideways, because I think wrong things are done, they just aren’t done for the reasons most people think they are, which is true graft, corruption and malfeasance with mal (evil) intent. For example, I dumped on my former contemporary hotshot crew boss from back in the day earlier…Tony Sciatica.. I don’t think Tony is evil, just like I don’t think the rest of the Eric Marsh Defense Team are evil. I think they are doing what they are doing because they are NICE people. They don’t want to hurt Eric Marsh’s parents feelings, or his former wife, or his friends, or the rest of his extended family’s FEELING’S. I think people like them have always done the very same thing for the very same reasons all the way back to Gordon King who killed 12 of his crew on the Loop Fire Of 1966. So this is what they do, they all agree to say, “No one did anything wrong.” And so nobody has to fill out one of RTS’s “Hurt Feelings Reports.” And then everyone says…or at least thinks, but we REALLY know what happened so we will keep two sets of books. There will be the official set that explains Gordon King led his hotshot crew into a steep canyon above an uncontrolled wildfire during the height of the burning period in flashy explosive fuels, it was hot dry, windy, very low RH, up Canyon winds and at least 3 other local area (Bob knows a lot of this better than I do since it was his country, crews, etc. but I think I am getting it right more or less) In other words, the El Cariso Hotshots had everything stacked against them except for two things. And those two things weren’t enough to save them. They had Gordon King’s blind ambition and hubris, in addition to one very important thing. They were the only hotshot crew who had been authorized to wear 75 th Ranger Regiment Lookalike Black Berets and it was 1966, two years before the Tet Offensive when we thought Black and Green Berets were enough to carry the day. We were dead wrong. Dang…was that a political slip up, my bad?But neither Gordon King’s attitude nor the Black Berets were enough to save the El Cariso Hotshots from themselves. The only problem I have with the way Tony Sciacca et al think…is I don’t think all of my people get the secret memo and so I think THOSE people are putting MY people at risk and I find that to be unacceptable. My people are GS 462 Forestry Technicians who form the backbone of OUR wildland firefighters Corp. I did become a GS 1811 but I remain a GS 462 to this day. I got a little lost on that one W, but I don’t think anyone will ever find mal intent on any of the things that have been drifting in and out of this conversation on the periphery for years now on the YHF. Misguided people trying not to hurt anyone’s feelings…yes they are there. And my default is the NTSB, what if they never wanted to hurt the feelings of a pilots family? I think it is usually pilot error…right? Or the feelings of an airplane parts manufacturer, or the feelings of Boeing or Airbus to name just two…no one would be any safer traveling by commercial carrier than they were doing the horse and buggy days.
2. I’m still a little lost, but I am trying to redirect my brain. The second area I think I know about people doing the wrong thing is easier to both identify and quantify and that is when wildland firefighters deliberately start fires. Since I haven’t read either Joy’s website or Dr Putnam’s paper W is referring to, I am using the shotgun approach here to hit my target, so I am at a clear disadvantage here, but I don’t care, I am on a roll. Usually men WF set these fires, but I do remember a female Fire Prevention Technician setting one of the largest and most destructive fires up around Denver several years ago. Those fires were burning in all of that bug killed timber and it got really, really, really bad. But I don’t think that is what W is asking about, but I do know that happens…all too frequently.
3. I also know there have been instances where pick up fire crews deliberately set fires, not as fire bugs, but because Mama needed a new pair of shoes and Daddy needed a new snowmobile and it got so bad in Alaska, the Alaska Fire Service had to fly other fire crews thousands of miles so as not to reward the arsonists. But I don’t think that is what W is specifically asking about either?
Part II
4. So…are wildland firefighting managers deliberately allowing fires to not only start, but get bigger before they step in to put them out? There are two reasons I can think that could be happening. First…everyone knows if you don’t spend your budget by the end of the year, they assume you can live on the lessor amount during subsequent years and no one wants to have their budget permanently slashed just because they didn’t spend all of their money. I do know as the Drug Enforcement Coordinator for both BLM Arizona and BLM New Mexico at different times, I was called upon to do some very serious last minute ordering so as to not leave Pappy Bush’s money on the table. To get er done though I had to revert to things like multiple two hundred thousand night vision telescopes, not night vision goggles, night vision telescopes and gyroscopic stabilized camera’s for helicopters…it wasn’t easy, but I had my gung ho can do hotshot attitude so I got it done. We never used any of that kind of stuff because it was too specialized and complicated to really use, but that was never the point during the War On Drugs, the point was for the White House through multiple administrations to report we must be winning the drug war because we keep spending more and more money every year. Do WF managers do similar things with wildfires? Not that I ever heard of.
5. Which brings me to my final point that I probably could have started with because I often tell people how to build a watch when all they did was ask me what time it was. And that would be to let fires get bigger so as to cheat on prescribed fire stats to pump up the acreage a manager can claim, and make no mistake, those figures are tied to hard targets that are reported up the food chain and lots of money in terms of bonuses are riding on achieving those targets. But I don’t think that is happening either, except perhaps in a very limited amount by my favorite agency to pick on, the National Park Service. The BLM doesn’t even do any control burns based on my knowledge nationwide, nor does the BIA from what I know. The BIA is an odd duck, for lack of a better term, as a partner wiland firefighting agency. And that is because they literally do everything for an entire subset of our population…everything. The same people are budgeting for jails, entire police forces, all social services, medical care, education and the list goes on and on so it is often hard for them to concentrate on any one thing…like letting wildfires get bigger so they can claim hard target acreage when they probably don’t have any hard target control burns in the first place. The same goes for the USFWS and all of the lessor primates in our family of mountain gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans, great apes, monkeys, lemurs etc, so on and so forth. The only ones I think are candidates for letting wildfires deliberately get bigger to cheat on prescribed fire targets is the USFS and NPS. I just don’t think the USFS does that, at least that I have ever heard about, but as we all know…what I think I know is VERY dated. For my money, the USFS has always been just too risk adverse to do something that stupid. Those prescriptions are very complicated cases with a lots of ins, lot of outs. And the odds of everything lining up under just the right circumstances, with just the right wildfire, at just the right time, in just the right way, and in just the right place, with just the right conditions? I think the odds are just too astronomical and the USFS is just too good, not to mention risk adverse, wait…I did already mention that one. There are three things, as I have written before that are more important to the USFS than anything else, and those three things are,
1. Tradition
2. Tradition
3. Tradition
And to my knowledge, the USFS just didn’t have a tradition of doing something so reckless, dangerous, foolhardy, frivolous and irrational to subject peoples lives and property to such inconstant, capricious, wayward, and random form of extreme danger…and for what? A few more acres catalogued at the end of the year to meet or perhaps even exceed hard targets? I just don’t think the USFS has, or ever will go down that road.
So…how about the National Park Service!? What do I think about them? Yes…I think as an agency they are just that arrogant and filled with hubris, in addition to being way more STUPID than the minimum they need to be to be just that STUPID. in fact….I think that is EXACTLY what they did with the ChimneyTops II Fire, because there are three things the National Park Service always demonstrates in excessive and inexplicable quantities.
1. Arrogant and being convinced of their own superiority, although I have no idea why?
2. Arrogant and being convinced of their own superiority, although I have no idea why?
3. Arrogant and being convinced of their own superiority, although I have no idea why?
I think they are 100% responsible for all of those horrible deaths of the very people all of us are paid good wages to protect. And it is my sincere prayer that when all,of those who are responsible for those horrible deaths of our people, which included young children, and that responsibility goes far beyond the boundaries of the Great Smokey Mountains National Park, meet our Creator…each and every one of them burns in hell so they will know how those who were burned alive felt. We can only pray that sweet death released them from their agony with.a kinder and gentler means such as death by smoke inhalation to die, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Wow! Powerful response & perspective. Thanks!
Also thanks for admitting that your perspective is mainly upon your service some years ago.
This is not meant to disagree with you but merely to add to the discussion, what if I told that in the last 5 years I’m aware of a wildfire in a national forest in which public notification had taken place by posting paper maps, info, etc of a planned prescribed burn…..which were subsequently removed from these public places quickly once the wildfire was declared…but not before photos of these notices showed up on social media? There was some serious public grumbling on that one, you can be assured. Would your old USFS do that?
I agree with your assessment of the NPS as it matches my experience as well…and not just Chimney Tops 2 either.
Thanks, man
PS can’t wait for you to read Dr Ps paper!
Well…like we both have said, my reference point is decades old now.
What…34 years outdated? And no, the USFS i knew wouldn’t have done that….bummer.
I don’t know what to say…so I am going to stop writing now.
W,
And just to be clear, I have written many times on this blog that I neither hate nor love the USFS. The USFS in an inanimate collection of buildings, forests, grass lands, policies, rules regulations and ideas.
Some of the people who work for the USFS are good…and some of them like Mike Dudley and Shawna Legarza are….bad.
This entire exercise has been about 19 WF who didn’t work for the USFS. So…I care about WF…not agencies.
It’s a real quirk of fate that my grandfather, myself and now my son all had and have a relationship with the USFS and I certainly loved working for it.
But FYI…my grandfather wasn’t a dedicated USFS employee, he was a dedicated rancher and a USFS permittee who was desperate for cash money like all ranchers.
Two brothers each inherited a million dollars. One of them was a rancher. When his brother ask him what he was going to do with his inheritance, the rancher said, “Oh…I don’t know? I guess I will keep ranching until all of the money is gone?”
My mother said her father loved his cows more than he loved his family. My mother hated his cows because he treated them better than he treated his kids.
Gee…maybe my shortcomimgs as a father are genetic…NOTHING IS EVER MY FAULT!
And you probably know that as a Mormon from one of the families who settled southern Utah and the White Mountains, he had a lot of family including a whole bunch of kids. Or maybe you don’t know that…say, where are you from anyway? And just WHO are you?
All of the family on my mothers side are, or were ranchers. I grew up on ranches. Now…I’m no hat AND no cows.. : )
And for those who may be interested just who my family is who settled southern Utah and the White Mountains (you can’t throw a rock at an all employees meeting for either the USFS or BLM in the Great Basin States and not hit a Mormon) It is Hamblin…Goggle Jacob Hamblin.
Oh….and one more thing. Even though I have a deep love and respect for Mormons in addition to a strong affinity with than, I am not a Mormon.
Gary,
Given your experience in firefighting do you think that it is possible that a backfire was lit in the sheine area
that eventually caught GMHS?
No…I think that concept is at the heart of what Joy has always hinted at and I have always discarded.
It doesn’t actually matter what I think, but thank you for asking. All of us are like detectives from different agencies with different backgrounds and experiences all being temporarily assigned to a major case investigation.
All of us come up with different angles and ideas to pursue that we as individuals think may be productive in learning all of the truth at the end.
So…if in the end Joy is right and that is proven, it won’t hurt my feelings at all. In fact…if that is what happened, I hope it is proven sooner rather than later so we can move on as individuals to a new line of questioning or angle to pursue.
My basic theory still goes like this…because to recap it will help me remember where I am at.
1. The city of Prescott wanted to eliminate the GMIHC because in spite of all of their creative financing, the truth was this…the City Of Prescott couldn’t afford the GMIHC because the crew had been sold to the Mayor and city council on a foundation of lies based on the fact they were going to be able to siphon off so much money (steal) from the federal government, the crew would be revenue neutral meaning they were going to be a mechanism to enable the city to steal more money than the crew cost. But once again, it was all alive, told by skillful liars wgphonwere experts in the dark art of bureaucratic doublespeak, e.g., Darrell Willis.
Well Diane…it looks like you have struck a nerve with me and I am winding up to hurl more spaghetti at the wall based on my own pet theories and pet peeves.
I didn’t know I wanted to answer your question until you ask it, but I really do. I am just going to have to do it in phases because it is actually a very complicated case Diane, there are lots of ins
PI don’t really know what happened with THAT copy and paste job.
No…I think that concept is at the heart of what Joy has always hinted at and I have always discarded.
It doesn’t actually matter what I think, but thank you for asking. All of us are like detectives from different agencies with different backgrounds and experiences all being temporarily assigned to a major case investigation.
All of us come up with different angles and ideas to pursue that we as individuals think may be productive in learning all of the truth at the end.
So…if in the end Joy is right and that is proven, it won’t hurt my feelings at all. In fact…if that is what happened, I hope it is proven sooner rather than later so we can move on as individuals to a new line of questioning or angle to pursue.
My basic theory still goes like this…because to recap it will help me remember where I am at.
1. The city of Prescott wanted to eliminate the GMIHC because in spite of all of their creative financing, the truth was this…the City Of Prescott couldn’t afford the GMIHC because the crew had been sold to the Mayor and city council on a foundation of lies based on the fact they were going to be able to siphon off so much money (steal) from the federal government, the crew would be revenue neutral meaning they were going to be a mechanism to enable the city to steal more money than the crew cost. But once again, it was all a lie told by skillful liars and experts in the dark art of bureaucratic doublespeak, e.g., Darrell Willis.
Well Diane…it looks like you have struck a nerve with me and I am winding up to hurl more spaghetti at the wall based on my own pet peeves and half baked theories.
I didn’t know I wanted to answer your question until you ask it, but I really do. I am just going to have to do it in phases because this is a very complicated case, Diane. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Gary’s head. Luckily I’m adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind, you know, limber.
The other good news is that I am no longer channeling my old back of the hotshot bus self in order to have the courage to speak out on these issues, so no more…you know….bad words.
I decided that my goal is to have a book in the end that my grandkids can read, so…I gotta clean it up.
TO BE CONTINUED
Gary,
It is obvious you have not been to my webpage…I do not mention backfire…backfire to me is when you have a rapidly advancing fire towards your fire line and you wait for the INdraft of the approaching head (s) and you light off your fire line. I agree with you that it is a big operation requiring coordination and communication. You should visit me and my page sometime…you might learn something. Check your ego qt the door and come visit some time.
Whoops,
I guess I should at least try to answer your question before I go off on a tangent, because although I answered it, I think some explanation is in order.
So first, please keep in mind all of my original caveats, that include my experience being very specialized and very outdated.
Although in this case, my highly specialized experience is very relevant.
So…no, I don’t think the crew got caught in a back fire.
A backfire is the most dangerous, specialized and technical work any WF can be asked to perform.
Timing is everything. A successful backfire also requires a lot of things to line.up just right and timing is EVERYTHING.
Based on my experience, most WF do not use backfire because of the reasons I mentioned previously and therefore that assignment is left to hotshot crews and highly experienced overhead supported by hotshot crews.
The biggest reason I don’t think a backfire caught the crew is because to prepare for a backfire requires a lot of planning. And I haven’t seen any evidence the fire team on that fire had the ability to plan for lunch.
In general, you need a line to fire from, a large group of highly trained people to do the firing and hold the line simultaneously and most importantly in terms of preparation, you need to have a large quantity of ignition devices that are not routinely carried by anyone other than hotshots who tend to carry them only in small numbers for exigencies circumstances, not for large preplanned operations.
The only part of that equation that may have been partially in place that day was the now famous Cory Ball dozer line, I think.
But…I also haven’t studied maps, photos, videos, or witness statements because I depend on our AI to do that for me and advise me of anything important I need to know.
I also know all of the things I just mentioned are some of Joy’s specialities and she knows way more than I do about almost everything pertaining to this fire. Basically, all I have is my gut instinct based on my experience.
So…with all of that being written, I am also going to dust off one of my classic theories to explain why I don’t think the YHF overhead, or anyone else went down that road.
And that is my “Paint By The Numbers” theory of fire operations. As I like to brag, I never served or even trained in any overhead position and certainly includes graduate and Phd course work.
As you probably know, WF courses have or had, identifiers assigned to them like the most basic courses, S110 and S130. The PhD course was, or is, called Fire Generalship (I think).
I think that is where all aspiring overhead all get together and okay a war game after studying the course material, probably for a couple of week or more down in Mariana. “Down” in Marana is the standard way to identify what was, or still is the National Advanced Resource Training Center at the joint CIA and USFS base at the Pina, Air Park about five mikes north of the farming town of Marana, Arizona. If you decide to go…be sure and take all of your own drinking and bathing water.
That joint base, which included one of my prime destinations for many years also included FLETC West until former Senator Pete Dominici Of New Mexico decided to pay off a political supporter by spending hundreds of millions of dollars to buy and fix up a defunct Christian Bible College “down” in one of the most God.forsaken, bleak, barren, Hell holes nestled among hundreds of thousands of acres of flat wind swept BLM alkali deserts in the world…Artesia, New Mexico near where they are storing a lot our nations spent nuclear material in underground salt caverns. One of my proudest moments was when I was part of the interagency task force that transported the first shipment of such waste from Los Alamo’s New Mexico to the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant nearby to begin its first 10;000 year internment. The Certificate Of Acheivment I received for that accomplishment is the only one I still have on display in my bathroom.
Whoops, got side tracked again.
Back to down in Marana, which has been in existence as a joint USFS and CIA base since the USFS provided cover that enabled the CIA to fight its dirty wars in Laos Cambodia and other places in later years like Nicaragua by providing a place to store and maintain all of those really big transport planes the government doesn’t own or fly out of Marana. Somtimes in the morning in the chow hall it would look like a United Nations gathering of flight crews eating breakfast in flight suites with patches that had languages on them I couldn’t identify.
Anyway, all of the aspiring overhead get together to get highly inebriated for a couple of weeks while they also play war games. Finally…I can make my point, the war games they play are based on the same paint-by-the-numbers paintings they sell at hobby and craft shops.
They start with 1….and then look for 2….and then look for 3….and then look for 4…you get the “picture”…right?
The Yarnell Hill Firemay have started on “1”, but then it exponentially jumped way ahead in the linear numbering sequence while the Yarnell Hill Fire Team was still looking for number “5.”
So no…I don’t think anyone ever planned, prepped for, or executed a backfire to catch and kill the crew on the YHF. That fire team never managed to relieve CHAOS from running that particular goat roping and rodeo.
I think I’m doing pretty darn good at NOT cussing up a storm…but it has been very hard on me.
And besides that…who needed to ignite a backfire when everyone already had a firestorm of Biblical proportions bearing down on them way faster than their brains could compute the danger their bodies were in while it rained burning material down on their heads from the well developed pyroclastic cloud of black smoke and ash that towered above them reaching up tens of thousands feet towards the blazing sun they could no longer see in a scene that was stripped right out of Dante’s Hell on earth?
I think this is one of my more quotable quotes,
“The YHF Team utilized and relied on proven linear thinking and problem solving techniques while playing by the old rules as they faced and attempted to engage an exponentially growing threat that ignored not only the old rules, it incinerated the entire rule book right before their astonished, confused and dumbfounded faces.”
C. G. Olson, 2018
I think this is one of my more quotable quotes,
“The YHF Team utilized and relied on proven linear thinking and problem solving techniques while playing by the old rules as they faced and attempted to engage an exponentially growing threat that ignored not only the old rules, it incinerated the entire rule book right before their astonished, confused and dumbfounded faces.”
C. G. Olson, 2018
Oh…and one more thing. The fire did EXACTLY what the fire weather meteorologists said it was going to do EXACTKY when they said it was going to do it.
So…you know, that wasn’t fair. How could they have possibly prepared for such a compketly and accurately prdicted outcome?
You’re assuming a backfire is planned out in detail before any take place on every fire in this day and age. In an ideal world, yes. Today’s world? Not a given.
You underestimate the lack of skill & experience of the gaggle of battalion chiefs & other assorted characters assembled through the “I scratch your back – you scratch mine (oh, & sign my taskbook, will ya?) netbook at the Yarnell Hill fire. Anything and everything is 100% on the table until ruled out with evidence.
I’m a self-declared special case. I believe only the not possible is impossible. Everything else is possible.
Arrghh! NETWORK is what meant. Damn typo ruined the flow of my prose!!!
Oh…I didn’t take the time to state the obvious…I don’t think a spontaneous or informal backfire killed the crew or even happened either.
I am less certain that no one ever whipped out a fussee, popped the cap on it and went to work, but I am as certain as I can be just by guessing, that no backfire or human caused ignition killed the crew. I don’t think there was time. I think that fire reversed itself and swept back down that valley and ultimately button hooked on that box canyon, trapped and ultimately killed our crew.
EXACTLY when the fire weather meteorologists said it would do several hours before it actuly did.
Gee…wouldn’t every profession who deals with catastrophic disasters love to have a crystal ball and a group of mystics who can accurately predict the future of such disasters? You would think that would be really helpful in order to AVOID them or at least mitigate the damage they cause?
Oh…and one more thing. Law Enforement uses a Force Continuum when reacting to the escalation of or engaging a threat.
In general, it goes like this,
1. Physical and command of presence.
2. Voice commands.
3. Open hands and control holds
4. Closed hand strikes.
5. Chemical use.
6. Baton strikes.
7. Non lethal rounds
7. Deadly force.
But if a bad guy jumps right to using a gun, no one expects them to react with just disapproving looks.
Gary,
Who said anything about a backfire? I did not get that from reading any of her posts.
And I am pretty sure I was ahead of Fred by stating I believe that if the crew would have run towards Marsh instead of Marsh ruining towards them, they could have had a good laugh at how exciting it has been and how close they had come to being killed.
But, I really liked the time and clock numbers Fred supported our theory with and I am going to use them in my book as prima facile evidevs the crew could And Ian pretty sure I was ahead of Fred by stating I believe if the crew would have run towards Marsh instead of Mary ruining towards them, they could have had a good laugh at how exciting it has been.
But, I really liked the time and clock numbers Fred supported our theory with and I am going to use them in my book as prima facia evidence the crew could have survived without giving Fred the credit fior researching those numbers…so, heads up on that one.
Bummer…now I got The Woodsman, Fred AND Joy being snippy with me.
Well..Fred, the person who mentioned backfire was Diane, that is the person who ask the question I was attempting to respon to.
I kind of just threw Joy in the mix because it seems to me that for the past several years, Joy has been the one pushing the concept that the crew was killed by a backfire that was ignited in the Shrine area?
If…I remember that wrong, than please accept my deepest and most humble apology to both you and Joy?
But…in my defense, Joy throws out so many hints. innuendoes, and promises of producing the Holy Grail in unknowns based on people who are telling her some things behind the scenes, while she constantly cajoles them to come forward and reveal all to our audience but they never do, I get more than a little dazed and confused.
And as far you go…little Miss Smarty Pants…if I knew the link to your website…I would visit just to say “Hello.”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474691
W,
Wait just one minute, Did I still miss by a mile? Is the actual suggestion or even accusation that some wild land firefighters have let some fires get bigger, just to let them get bigger? To what end? To make a few more dollars when they do finally go to suppress them?
I can’t fathom that to be true and if it is, that concept is an abomination to everything we stand for and I hope some people go to prison.
I just can’t believe that is true and I am probably the most cynical person I know. But…if Dr. Putnam is going there, or has gone there…I’m not going to dismiss the idea no matter how inconceivable it may be to my way of thinking.
We think reburns are anathema to everything we as a culture believe, much less letting fires get bigger for, once again…for what…more money?
I don’t know any WF who ever did that job for money. The money is part of the equation of course…everyone has to feed their monkey, but like I wrote earlier, those who do it for money don’t last long because the money just isn’t that good. It is about being part of something bigger than yourself and answering a higher calling.
I already wrote about the head game I always played with myself as we drove or flew towards a big, bad, black or dark grey smoke column laying over horizontal to the earth while it waited for us.
As I studied the column to assess what we would encounter when we got there, I would mark a spot, look at the column at that instant and then whenever we did leave, I would turn and look back where the smoke column had been at that same spot and it was always…gone.
VINi…VIDI…VICI…and not for MONEY!
I read Dr. Putnam’s paper that Joy posted a link to at her new blog. You know, the one the Lessons Learned Center refused to acknowledge the existence of multiple times. Gotta say that I have that sinking feeling in my stomach…again. I had no idea about Mann Gulch & the likelihood of (and major suggestive evidence of) a fire deliberately set below the crew. So….the coverups have been part of our institution since the 1940’s? Good God, man. I’m getting callouses on both my face & palm at this point.
I see the potential for serious commonalities between Mann Gulch, Battlement Creek & Yarnell Hill, although each had different specific motivations for the act, each one shares a common physical theme: fire deliberately set below a crew…whether those setting the fire knew of the danger the would be trapped crew was in or not.
Which fire(s) have I left out with this common physical occurrence? There must be more.
All signs point to serial coverups going on a cool century now unless something changes. Will it change? I’m normally a fairly optimistic guy but my gut tells me NOPE. It won’t. I spit in “management’s general direction. Go to hell, weasles. You pension clinging fucks!
Oh, & I’m not raging. I’m shattered. I’m devastated by the lies & deceit. I’m crushed that what should be good is actually shit. USDA prime feces. All of it.
Doesn’t mean I’ll give up. Hey, it’s a character flaw or a gift…either way you want to look at it is fine by me. I’ll stop speaking up when I die, thank you very much.
By the way, it wasn’t hard to figure out why the LLC refused to acknowledge the paper – they ” can’t. ” What a bunch of useless, taxpayer $$ sucking, worthless charlatans. Lessons Learned Center? Ha!!! Good one!
Wood
Oh & my personal tragedy fire is Stanza. You forgot to mention in the report the freshly graded road with loose shoulders, inadequate width in the switchbacks, no room to pass for 2 vehicles meeting on most of it, no traffic control for when vehicles would meet ( how would you like to be in an old jalopy of a crew school bus for that? Don’t look down! We could barely make the turns with no oncoming traffic!)…..NO, you just had to blame most of it on the driver of the engine. You got blood on your hands, assholes. And it won’t wash off. Live with that!
OK. That was a touch of anger but can you blame me?
And I’m not talking about Wag Dodge’ escape fire either. Read up on the local ranger & contemplate his possible motives based on others testimony & the physical evidence. The ranger’s professor (he was a college student) investigated the fire behavior indicators with the ranger & never lived to tell what he discovered as he died of a heart attack coming out of the gulch. What were the circumstances surrounding that?
But I’ll survive. After all life is tough. Just don’t call me a fool for having the inability to trust others until they have prove trustworthy.
Woodsman,
You make many good points about the causal commonalities between the epic wildland fatality fires which include covering up the truth about what really happened and why and completely ignoring the human factors leading up to the events, the steady drift into failure.
instead, the Investigation Teams first determine a “conclusion” and then support their fabricated “conclusions” with supposed “facts” to fit. I know this from personal experience on a 1996 fire shelter deployment investigation as the Operations Specialist.
The Human Factors “expert,” a PhD from the Univ. of ID, briefed us on this very thing – first establish a conclusion and then find the “facts” to support that “conclusion.”
Dr. Putnam’s 2011 IAWF paper more or less reveals the same thing.
Regarding the WFLLC, I will avoid going so far as to say that they are “a bunch of useless, taxpayer $$ sucking, worthless charlatans.” I know there are some good people in there, all former WFs as far as I know, and maybe they were directed to not reply to either Dr. Putnam or myself. And maybe there are some gutless obsequious sycophants as well, just doing what they’re told.
This OMG dreadfully frightening situation places these employees in a Catch-22 of following orders or defy the orders and risk adverse action of insubordination or failure to follow orders. Remember, in at least the Federal Govt., one must follow orders unless they are “illegal, immoral, unethical, or unsafe.”
Some may throw down the moral relativism card. Moral relativism holds that moral judgments are either true or false relative to some particular worldview and that no wordview is uniquely privileged over any others.
I’m still patiently waiting for the WLFLLC to acknowledge my contribution to starting up the WFLLC under Paula Nasiatk with my 60 or so wildland fire Investigation Reports on fatalities and shelter deployments and more.
Keep talking and writing about the Stanza Fire in order to heal on your lifelong journey of remembrance and more importantly, ridding yourself of the triggers that bring you back there.
I agree that I was a little harsh on the lower levels of the LLC. I believe the mechanism at work for the entire bureaucracy is similar to most large organizations: low-level members are not advised of the big picture & ultimate goals/purpose of the organization, incrementally as members move up in the organization they are given more enlightenment of the purpose (which incentally is a defacto reward for going along with it), and finally those that have proven themselves most trustworthy of harboring & cultivating the continuation of the big secret land in the top leadership positions. Thus the machine is self-sustaining with a life of its own.
So my broad-brush condemnation of the entire wildland coverup machine could be considered unfair…as many do not know what they are helping to prolong…until it’s too late.
Weak-minded easily manipulatable people end up in top management positions because of what they must do or not do in order to please the ones sitting in the big chairs. Unfortunately, many of these people climbing the ladder are lead to believe that if they “cover this time” changes will be made outside the courtroom or 3rd party oversight. This is false as true change doesn’t ever come.
My thoughts on the matter anyway…
You realize you just perfectly described the structure of the Scientology organization./cult… right?
The ‘move up’ from being just a CLEAR to full blown THETAN?
Ask Tom Cruise. He’ll verify.
No. I didn’t realize that. I think the concept is not the exclusive domain of Scientology & I’m no expert there for sure. It’s prevalent in many organizations in my opinion. Thank you for the feedback. Hopefully I have provided occasional useful nuggets amongst my emotional reactions to tragedy fires of my own. The awakening is very slow until it isn’t. One day it all comes crashing down.This is my method to address the frustration.
The awakening for some, anyway…
Reply to Woodsman post on
July 3, 2018 at 7:47 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I think the concept is not the exclusive domain
>> of Scientology & I’m no expert there for sure.
>> It’s prevalent in many organizations in my opinion.
Yes, it is.
Some moreso than others. The parallel(s) between your organizational description above and Masonry are also there.
Upward mobility in Masonry is also based on first ( and foremost ) demonstrating ‘loyalty’ and the ‘ability to keep secrets’… and the ‘carrot’ that is dangled is always that the more loyalty you show… the more ‘secrets’ you will have access to… and on and on until you then become one of the ones demanding loyalty and imparting ‘secrets’ yourself… and deciding who ‘advances’ and who doesn’t.
And the wheels on the bus go round and round.
Yes. I agree. It’s repugnant to reason. You are a very wise individual.
Woodsman said:
“Doesn’t mean I’ll give up. Hey, it’s a character flaw or a gift…either way you want to look at it is fine by me. I’ll stop speaking up when I die, thank you very much”.
They believe it’s a character flaw, I believe it’s a gift.
Having said that, I have the flaw of the tendency to trust others until such time that they prove untrustworthy. That flaw has burned me more times than I would care to admit.
TTWARE,
Thank you for the support. As you know it’s not easy. You are less pessimistic than I am. That can be a very good thing. You are fortunate. I appreciate your contributions. Hang on to your hat as what I’m feeling is about to unfold is going to be one wild ride. Hold on to what’s true and good. Thanks again.
Wood
And yes…I do know it was wrong to take crew photos with a suicide victim on the way to the Chalk Fire of 1978 on the Tonto National Forest, Cave Creek Ranger District.
I can’t explain or justify the way the USFS organized, staffed and managed hotshot crews back in my time as a hotshot during the Dark Ages. The only explanation I can offer is maybe sometimes hard choices had to be made based on the need for hotshot crews and the lack of funding to properly organize, staff, and manage those very same crews? And sometimes, maybe those hard choices had to be made between the lessor of two evils…so to speak. Or perhaps the game was to win as much and as often as possible…even with a losing hand by bluffing?
I do know a lot about young wildland firefighters, in addition to the demands, complexities and the inherent dangers of putting hotshot crews forward as the tip of the spear while challenging Mother Nature and her destructive wildfires…on her home court. And every old hand who has either read or participated on this thread knows as much as I do about those very same subjects, more or less. And by that I mean that some old hands might know a little more than I do…while others might know know a little less?
All of us know one more thing for certain though, either I was a very special person indeed to be made a hotshot crew boss at age 23, with a total of 10 months of wildland firefighting experience, even though all of it was as a hotshot…or I was a very dangerous person who was an inherent train wreck just looking for a place to happen. And as I have already assured all of you many times, although I was indeed a cowboy who rode hard for the brand and shot from the hip, I was anything but a very special person.
In fact…I have stated I was both an accidental hotshot and accidental hotshot crew boss whose primary claim to fame is that I was the last crew supervisor standing, even though I was the junior squad boss, after weeks of fighting the brutal Hog Fire on the Shasta Trinity National Forest of 1977.
And so that just leaves one other possibility…obviously. Fortunately for those who worked under my command…I never found just the right place to have that train wreck like Gordon King, Tony Czak and Eric Marsh managed to do. There…that is “speaking truth to power”, even though I have always hated that analogy because it just sounds way to pretentious for me to feel comfortable to almost ever use.
Thank God men like Fred and too many others for me to name, primarily because I don’t know most of them, or even their names and I never will…stepped forward and professionalized our hotshot crews in their long arc from the genesis of hotshot crews in the Cradle of Hotshot Civilization in Southern California in 1947 – 48, to where we are today.
I have never said this Fred and all of those like him who made this transition possible…thank you! Because at some point…we should stop losing hotshots at the completely unacceptable rate we have up through our shocking loss on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013. A catastrophic loss that cannot be overstated and literally left us dumbfounded and rocked us violently to our very core while we desperately searched for answers and simultaneously made us seriously doubt who we thought we were…or are…or hoped to one day be?
But don’t get all mushy on me Fred…I am still going to give you a hard time because you and the Payson Hotshots were such slackers high up in the Wasatch Mountains of Central Utah on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1979, but l love you anyway…man.
And yes…I do know it was wrong to take crew photos with a suicide victim on the way to the Chalk Fire of 1978 on the Tonto National Forest, Cave Creek Ranger District.
I can’t explain or justify the way the USFS organized, staffed and managed hotshot crews back in my time as a hotshot during the Dark Ages. The only explanation I can offer is maybe sometimes hard choices had to be made based on the need for hotshot crews and the lack of funding to properly organize, staff, and manage those very same crews? And sometimes, maybe those hard choices had to be made between the lessor of two evils…so to speak. Or perhaps the game was to win as much and as often as possible…even with a losing hand by bluffing?
I do know a lot about young wildland firefighters, in addition to the demands, complexities and the inherent dangers of putting hotshot crews forward as the tip of the spear while challenging Mother Nature and her destructive wildfires…on her home court. And every old hand who has either read or participated on this thread knows as much as I do about those very same subjects, more or less. And by that I mean that some old hands might know a little more than I do…while others might know know a little less?
All of us know one more thing for certain though, either I was a very special person indeed to be made a hotshot crew boss at age 23, with a total of 10 months of wildland firefighting experience, even though all of it was as a hotshot…or I was a very dangerous person who was an inherent train wreck just looking for a place to happen. And as I have already assured all of you many times, although I was indeed a cowboy who rode hard for the brand and shot from the hip, I was anything but a very special person.
In fact…I have stated I was both an accidental hotshot and accidental hotshot crew boss whose primary claim to fame is that I was the last crew supervisor standing, even though I was the junior squad boss, after weeks of fighting the brutal Hog Fire on the Shasta Trinity National Forest of 1977.
And so that just leaves one other possibility…obviously. Fortunately for those who worked under my command…I never found just the right place to have that train wreck like Gordon King, Tony Czak and Eric Marsh managed to do. There…that is “speaking truth to power”, even though I have always hated that analogy because it just sounds way to pretentious for me to feel comfortable to almost ever use.
Thank God men like Fred and too many others for me to name, primarily because I don’t know most of them, or even their names and I never will…stepped forward and professionalized our hotshot crews in their long arc from the genesis of hotshot crews in the Cradle of Hotshot Civilization in Southern California in 1947 – 48, to where we are today.
I have never said this Fred and all of those like him who made this transition possible…thank you! Because at some point…we should stop losing hotshots at the completely unacceptable rate we have up through our shocking loss on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013. A catastrophic loss that cannot be overstated and literally left us dumbfounded and rocked us violently to our very core while we desperately searched for answers and simultaneously made us seriously doubt who we thought we were…or are…or hoped to one day be?
But don’t get all mushy on me Fred…I am still going to give you a hard time because you and the Payson Hotshots were such slackers high up in the Wasatch Mountains of Central Utah on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1979, but l love you anyway…man.
Whoops major malfunction on my copy and paste.
And FYI…as I have stated several times on this thread, my hotshot death count includes 12 El Cariso Hotshots on the Loop Fire of 1966, 3 Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire if 1976 and 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.
I exclude the death of 9 Prineville Hotshots on the South Canyon Fire of 1994, which is often mistakenly called the Storm King Mountain Fire in this particular count for this specific purpose.
It is my preference to count as I do because unlike the other three hotshot disaster fires, the Prineville Hotshot Crew command and control structure was severely compromised on the South Canyon Fire and the 9 person squad of hotshots were under the command and control of others at the time of their deaths unlike the hotshot deaths on the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires. So…your hotshot death count may differ depending on your own methodology and analysis of primary and secondary casual factors?
Nothing I have written here should be interpreted by any one in any way to diminish the signifance of the deaths of our 9 Prineville Hotshot brothers and sisters on the South Canyon Fire and their heartbreaking loss to all of us and everyone who loved them.
Gary,
I am finally getting around to replying to your post.
I actually remember seeing your sick as f**ck photos of that hapless suicide victim on the Cave Creek RD.
I recall that your guys took turns sitting in the guy’s pickup with their arm around the guy to somehow make him feel as if he actually did have some friends in the world.
No worries about getting all mushy on you.
You go right ahead and give me a hard time because I was not the supervisor of the Payson Hot Shots at the time. I was the detailed Plesant valley HS Supt. at the time.
If I recall, you and your Happy Jack HS were the slackers high up in the Wasatch Mountains of Central Utah on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1979.
You may recall that the Plans Chief told us that he remembered being on a fire once with both of those Crews. He said that “Pleasant Valley wasn’t that pleasant and Happy Jack wasn’t that happy.”
And best of all we got to go on day shifts because I told them that is what I preferred. You, on the other hand, sucked up to him and told him “I’ll do whatever you want us to do.” Pretty friggin pitiful even back then.
It’s okay though because l love you anyway Man.
And the gauntlet is lain down………
NO…I can’t take any more if this from RTS, or any more of this Kabuki Theatre and charade for that matter, he is right, I was a Suck Up AND a Slacker! There…are you happy now? I have finally spoken some gut level and very painful Truth To Power…I have been bested by the best. So…
Geez…that was a World Class Bitch (non gender specific) Slap Down. I stand in AWE!
One of my favorite old timers that raised me in the wildland fire service (RIP old friend) used to tell me: ” you gotta stand for something or you’ll fall for anything. ”
What I stand for is truth, honor & service.
I’ve come to realize that our voices are limited & restrained on purpose. Of course I’m talking about the voice of the little guy; technician, crewman, the worker.
Management assures us that our input is wanted; that we must speak up. Is this true? No it’s not. How do I know this fact? I’ve been speaking up & offering my ideas for 19 years. Not only has it fallen on closed minds & ears, it’s shut doors that I was promised will always be open. That’s the big lie of management.
How many times and how many ways have you heard that you have a voice in the wildland fire service? Is it real? We have SAFENET & the Lessons Learned Center. Do they work as intended? I say NO! They do not. I’ve posted safenets after fires with significant ‘issues’ and barely a discussion is had about it. Serious incidents are swept under the rug. Why? Am I the only one that’s frustrated by this?
Why does it take anonymous posting on a blog provided by a hippie independent journalist (you da man, John! Love you, bro!) to let our voices be heard? Do you want your voice heard if improvements can be made?
I’m here because there is no other viable mechanism for my opinions to be expressed. Oh how we have failed as an institution to foster change and improve the safety & effectiveness of our workplace. I’ve grown tired of the lip-service.
Good, bad or indifferent what must happen is for wildland firefighters across the country is to say to themselves, enough is enough, & realize the power of their voice. There are few places to make your voice heard but heard it must be. Investigative Media is one place. Find one & make it happen.
Be proud of who you are and what you do. Be humbled for the reasons you do it. Speak up! The new guy beside you is counting on it & so is his family.
Don’t be the one who falls for anything.
Woodsman
No truer words have ever been written than these, “Not only has it fallen on closed minds & ears, it’s shut doors that I was promised will always be open. That’s the big lie of management.”
That is the true “BIG LIE” my old friend, or maybe you are a new friend since I count the few I have in decades…not years? No matter, you are a good friend.
And as a good friend, I will tell you this for a fact, if you ever wanted to get ahead in this life, you had to start out being a FUCKIN’ WHORE (non gender specific) like Shawna Legarza right out of the fuckin’ gate.
I mean….she knew she was a FUCKIN’ WHORE (non gender specific) when she was still the crew boss for the San Juan Hotshots when I met her as part of the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Developement Committee in 2006.
That FUCKIN’ WHORE (non gender specific) told Hardy Blomeke, Bill Moulton, and me at lunch in front of our driver, who was one of her squad bosses, that she was a FUCKIN’ WHORE (non gender specific) right after we told her the truth about exactly what happened and why it happened on the Battlement Creek Fire, which was the same exact truth former Smokejumper and Sector Boss on that fuckin’ God forsaken fire in addition to highly respected and experienced expert on all things pertaining to Wildland Firefighter Safety Dr, Ted Putnam told her a couple of days later.
And do you know what she said to us? That FUCKIN’ WHORE (non gender specific) Shawna Legarza said in so many words, thanks for the info that Gary has already been kind enough to share with me over the past few months…but it’s like this boys, I’m a FUCKIN’ WHORE, non gender specific, and I have already been notified in too many ways to count that I have been put on a fast track and I am destined for GREAT things and I am not going to fuck that up for you, the truth or the real lessons learned even if it MAY save a crew in the future from being killed by a crew boss EXACTLY like that fuckin’ ego driven egotistical chip on his shoulder nut job who was willing to risk anything to prove himself and his crew as the being better than any other hotshot crew boss and hotshot crew, Tony Czak.
Wait…have you gotten to know me well enough to know when I am pissed off and drunk enough even though I don’t drink, to know that I don’t care what I write (or say) because I am old and really pissed off because of what happened to OUR FUCKIN’ HOTSHOT CREW, the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew on that God forsaken Yarnell Hill Fire? That crew didn’t belong to Prescott…it belonged to all of us!
In other words…are you pimpin’ me?
Cause if you are…it’s working.
And I don’t want anybody else to give me any shit just because Marc blew his head off with a shotgun. Yes…he was a really nice guy, but that isn’t relevant to current fuckin’ events and all of us have sad stories…so fuck off! Like I said…I really don’t give a flyin’ fuck!
I had two partners who ate their own guns over 20 years…it happens a lot.
Cause I both worked with and knew of several others who did the same thing.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-OZbn1MsRc
Thanks for the comments & agreement, Gary. I consider you a good friend as well. There’s no substitute for experience. I appreciate you sharing yours. My orders are too continue to gain it & pass on what I can to the next generation…. what I received from the prior generation coupled with that which I have observed myself. It’s the cycle. And these are my self-proclaimed orders. It’s how I was taught & how I am. At least I’m 100% confident I’m NOT a non-gender specific whore! This I’m certain of.
I should repeat one thing because it’s something I always, always say:
There’s no substitute for experience. None.
Woodsman
IM….5 years later
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/06/29/InvestigativeMedia-5-Years-Later
Reply to Woodsman post on June 29, 2018 at 6:38 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> How many times and how many ways have you heard that you have
>> a voice in the wildland fire service? Is it real? We have SAFENET &
>> the Lessons Learned Center. Do they work as intended?
>> I say NO! They do not. I’ve posted safenets after fires with
>> significant ‘issues’ and barely a discussion is had about it.
>> Serious incidents are swept under the rug.
>> Why? Am I the only one that’s frustrated by this?
FWIW… here’s a little ‘insight’ into the actual ‘decision making’ process ( or lack thereof ) up at the infamous Lessons Learned Center.
The following is a copy of an email that Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( WFLLC ) DIRECTOR Brit Rosso sent to one of his BOSSES at the National Park Service by the name of Christina ( Tina ) Boehle…
Christina ( Tina ) Boehle
National Park Service
Acting Branch Chief, Communication and Education
Division of Fire and Aviation
3833 South Development Ave. Boise, ID 83705
208.387.5875
Rosso was giving ‘Tina’ a copy of a response email that he had just sent back to a lawyer who was researching ( among other things ) the Yarnell Hill Fire and had emailed Rosso and asked him TWO simple questions…
1. Who decides what materials merit being posted for download on the wildfirelessons.net website?
2. Do YOU ( Brit Rosso ) really work for the National Park Service?
Brit Ross ‘replied’ to this lawyer and basically said that HE has the FINAL SAY about what gets ‘posted’ at the WFLLC… and he also said there are (quote) “no hard and fast rules for what warrants posting” ( endquote ).
He makes NO MENTION of the WFLLC’s actual MISSION STATEMENT.
He basically admits it all comes down to whether HE thinks anything is ‘relevant’ to the safety of wildland firefighters… or NOT.
He also verified that he DOES, in fact, ‘work’ for the National Park Service.
Here is Brit Rosso’s actual response email back to the lawyer…
—————————————————————————————————–
From: Rosso, Brit ( brit_rosso (at) nps.gov )
Date: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: Two questions for Mr. Rosso ….
Sorry for the slow response.
It is a very busy time of year for us here at the LLC.
So I will try to answer your two questions;
1 – my LLC team decides what materials merit posting to our web site.
I have the final say as the Director, but we have no hard and fast “rules” for what
warrants posting. The diversity of the products sent to us is just too complex to
build hard and fast rules.
2 – I do work for the NPS, but the LLC works for the entire wildland fire community.
We were born out of the loss of 14 firefighters on the 1994 South Canyon fire.
We lost a total of 34 firefighters that tragic summer. By design we are the “ombudsman”
or 3rd party voice for the wildland fire service.
I hope this helps you in your continued efforts. all the best.
Brit Rosso – Director
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Work (520) 799-8760
Cell (559) 827-7607 www wildfirelessons.net
————————————————————————————————–
Brit Ross ( DIRECTOR of the WFLLC ) said…
“By design we are the “ombudsman” or 3rd party voice for the wildland fire service.”
——————————————————————————————-
om·buds·man
noun
noun: ombudsman; plural noun: ombudsmen
…an official appointed to investigate individuals’ complaints against maladministration, especially that of public authorities.
——————————————————————————————–
Yea… right.
Who are the ‘ombudsmen’ ( plural noun ) for the ‘ombudsmen’ ( plural noun ), then?
Cus’ what’s in place right now just ain’t workin’.
People in the world would be shocked WHO helped build that center and never shown proper respect of credit…but I won’t say who but hope he does…we will discuss this details today when I get back from an unexpected GMHS event so share the event and more on Brit Rosso tonight
Just saw this on my computer news alert and I don’t have any connection to Arizona or Prescott news alerts in this rain forest, so it must be a nation wide news story…sort of?
https://www.dcourier.com/photos/2018/jun/28/984961964/
Stupid fuckin’ people from Prescott and their committee couldn’t even get this right. Let’s see…let’s open up all of the phone lines and ask thousands of stupid fuckin’ people to tell a dozen other stupid fuckin’ people including a bunch of fuckin’ FIREMEN, what should represent a dead hotshot crew, none of which know a fuckin’ thing about being a WF much less a hotshot.
Take one stupid gag photo in front of one stupid fuckin’ tree that nobody on that crew really gave a shit about, and it symbolizing their existence for as long as that stupid fuckin’ memorial will stand.
Gee…how about putting that giant colossus Granite Mountain cliff face that the crew themselves selected to represent them instead of some stupid fuckin’ alligator juniper tree. You can’t even make good boards out of a worthless tree like that…just firewood that pops embers all over your carpet…stupid fuckin’ people.
No hotshot crew in existence, or that has ever been in existence gives a shit about some stupid fuckin’ tree. We cut big beautiful trees down by the thousands to save the FOREST….nobody gives a shit about one stupid ugly worthless Alligator Juniper tree except for the fuckin’. tea sippers and incense sniffers in Prescott who sit around the fuckin’ high end coffee shops sniffen’ each others butt holes…fuck them and that stupid fuckin’ tree.
I will guarantee you the GMIHC thought that was one stupid assignment, a joke and a complete waste of their talents and they really wished they could see what that fuckin’ tree looked like when it was torched off, which they were secretly hoping it would do in spite of their best efforts.
That’s how a hotshot crew thinks…or at least one that meshes like a fuckin’ machine made up of sprockets, gears, springs, shafts and cogwheels. Thank you for indulging me…I feel a little better now that I have shared.
WTKTT is right…you just can’t make this shit up and it never ends. Maybe I should go torch that fuckin’ tree up in their memory? LOL, and if somebody does…LOL, just kidding,(No…I’m not)! Wait…is that a terroristic threat? No…because I’m just JOKING, I’m a great kidder…really?
And let that be a lesson for every hotshot crew out there, your latest gag photo might be your last one and then maybe there won’t be anyone alive except for some stupid fuckin’Sad Sack to tell everyone the truth, that was just a GAG photo and was not meant to represent you for time eternity.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
Check out the crew video I made to mostly celebrate me…we took a gag photo where we all put orange traffic cones on our heads so we could be like Coneheads Beldar (Dan Aykroyd) and Prymaat (Jane Curtin) from the planet of Remulak, I even wore one on my head.
But it we would have killed ourselves a short time later, do you think the USFS would have made a memorial to us using orange traffic cones? Well, forget that example…the USFS wouldn’t have cared enough to make any memorial for us…they just would have sent out of chicken shit checks from OWCP and call it good. So…bad example.
But my point is this…one gag photo should not represent an entire hotshot crews body of work, either one fuckin’ worthless Alligator Juniper tree or Orange Traffic Cones.
I mean…I was on a drug op with a bunch of Border Patrol assholes one year and we all went into Mexico a few times and I took some gag photos at the one of the strip club we went to…whoops, never mind that story. We’ll save that one for another time.
But one of the guys….was up on the stage during a strip for the entire house. (he wasn’t even shit faced, but he made a deal with one of the girls…and a deal was a deal) And in the end, he was wearing red bikini underwear! No shit…who the fuck goes on a drug op wearing red bikini underwear?
How would that look in the OR after you get shot…for God’s sake? What was he thinking? Do you think he would want a memorial of him in red bikini underwear? Well…maybe, that’s another bad example?
But my original point still stands…the Alligator Junioer Tree was a poor choice, they should have used the CREW’S OWN FUCKIN’ LOGO OF GRANITE MOUNTAIN…WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?
Oh…and those strip clubs/whore houses in Mexico on the border are reasonably safe because they have a lot of Mexican cops standing around with submachind guns and assault rifles. You know…as long as you keep your pants buttoned down and zipped…WHICH I DID….I’m not stupid you know!
Oh…and one more thing. Don’t ever go down there with a badge on you though, if they find that they will shove it up your ass and send you and your head home in separate boxes. So…word to the wise!
Whoops…I spent years working on the Mexican border with U.S. Border Patrol Assholes, except that is really a redundant statement since 99.9 of Boder Parton people are flaming ASSHOLES. So…it is really only necessary to say Border Patrol because the ASSHOLE description is a given and REDUNDANT!
I have taken a vow to be non political from now on, but…it’s no wonder they don’t know where all of those missing kids are, if it was left up to the fuckin’ ASSHOLE Border Patrol you would have to check all of the strip clubs and whore houses on the fuckin’ border to find them…and then buy them back!
Not to put to find of a point on it, but it will be the Mexican cops who will pound that badge up your ass and send you and your head home in separate boxes. I don’t even want to think what would happen to you if the bad guys get ahold of you, .it makes me…shudder! And you know…quake in my boots.
Cause you know, if you are, it’s working.
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 29, 2018 at 4:10 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Stupid fuckin’ people from Prescott and their committee couldn’t even get this right.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: New sculpture will tell Hotshot story through granite and bronze
Published: June 29, 2018 6:03 a.m – By Cindy Barks
https://www.dcourier.com/news/2018/jun/29/new-sculpture-will-tell-hotshot-story-through-gran/
From the article…
——————————————————————————————————
The partnership is hopeful that the total $500,000 cost would be a combination of contributions from the community and from local governments.
—————————————————————————————————–
The City of Prescott did not give enough of a shit about the Granite Mountain Hotshots to even preserve ‘Station 7’ ( which they ALREADY OWNED ).
They sold it to a PLUMBING COMPANY for just $362,000.
They even had a last-minute bid from the Wildland Firefighter Foundation for an outright-buy of $320,000… but for the sake of a lousy $42,000 the cheapskates still let Station 7 forever become a place that just stores toilets and PVC pipe.
Now they want to go for a cool half-million ( $500,000 ) and all they get is a piece of sculpture and YABSOAWFF ( Yet-Another-Bronze-Statue-Of-A-Generic-Wildland-Firefighter ).
And instead of all that material and memorabilia so diligently collected from the Station 7 fences having a REAL place to be displayed ( like the original Station 7 where it all was left in the first place ) THAT group is now relegated to trying to show the stuff in an old Footlocker shoestore in the aging Prescott Gateway MALL… and even then it will only be open on the weekends.
What a bunch of fuck-ups.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> No hotshot crew in existence, or that has ever been in existence gives a
>> shit about some stupid fuckin’ tree.
According to page 48 of Fernanda Santos’ book “The Fire Line”… when they got to the tree and saw the low-hanging limbs their first and only get-er-dun instinct ( since they were, in fact, just Hotshots ) was to fire up the chain saws and just start WHACKING away at them.
Despite their efforts… the tree still got ‘singned’ pretty badly, BOTH from their own ‘burnouts’ underneath it AND from the fire that moved through after they left it to its own devices… and the jury is still out as to whether this tree has actually ‘survived’ that whole ordeal… or not. Only time will tell.
It’s lasted a few years, anyway… so at least that’s a good sign.
From Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
—————————————————————————————————
The tree still stood, but the heat had shriveled and curled back nearly a third of the green branches nearest the burnout. Nobody could know whether the ancient juniper had the strength to recover from the stress of the wildfire. Some, like Donut, thought it would surely die. The men sprawled out in the shade of the juniper’s branches and, while eating lunch, made deliberately crass jokes about visiting the tree during firewood-collection season.
—————————————————————————————————
And from Brendan McDonough’s own book ( and in his own words )…
Page 171
—————————————————————————————————-
On the third day ( of the Doce fire ), as we were heading back from the fire line, the situation went from depressing to ridiculous, or so I thought. Jesse told us “We’ve been asked to save a juniper tree”.
“A juniper tree?” I asked. “What the FUCK for?”
“There’s billions of ’em out there”.
We ( Hotshots ) spend our careers DESTROYING Juniper.
It’s like the number one fuel in the Southwest.
—————————————————————————————————-
It wasn’t their idea to even try and save it.
And they certainly didn’t STAY there ‘fighting to save it’, like some people think they did.
They were given an ASSIGNMENT ( that they at first thought was just weird ).
It was now their JOB to do something.
They did a quick clearing-out under the thing…
And then they just walked away hoping for the best.
They got lucky ( THAT day ).
I guess everyone is pretty much glad the tree is ‘still here’.
I wish THEY were ‘still here’.
Typo in the last post.
Meant to type ‘SINGED’ ( as in, SCORCHED )… and not ‘singned’.
Line about should have read like this…
Despite their efforts… the tree still got ‘SINGED’ pretty badly, BOTH from their own ‘burnouts’ underneath it AND from the fire that moved through after they left it.
Well…that begs the question then, “Didn’t anybody read that stupid fuckin’ book BEFORE they came up with that stupid fuckin’ idea?”
This whole exchange and my morbid memories reminds me of another “no shit” story. We were driving out to some shit project fire on the shit Tonto (Okay…except for the Payson and Pleasant Valley Ranger Districts) I think it was the Chalk Fire of 79; cause I think there is a Chalk Fire every year in that fuckin’ desert cause it’s an important geographic feature although of what…I have no fuckin’ idea?
Anyway, on our way out there we drove past this guy lounging in the cab of his pickup truck and I said to my Number 2, “Hey Bill…did that guy look okay to you?”
Bill didn’t know so I turned around to go see and he was a fresh suicide that had blown his brains out. We took some crew photos with him and then I called it in and we went on to the Chalk Fire and Veni vidi vici one more fuckin’ desert fire.
I’m not complaining mind you, we always called the Tonto our bread and butter because we could count on it to make us some money even during really shitty Fire seasons.
Actually…this discussion begs another question I would really like the City Father’s Of Everybody’s Home Town to answer for me.
“Do those plumbers who bought Station No. 7 have to do push-ups if they step on the black tiles (or was it the white tiles)?
That suicide was a clean cut young guy who could have been on the crew and he had a nice truck. I wish I knew what his problem was? I guess it doesn’t really matter, but sometimes I think about things like that? Whatever his problem was, I bet if he would have waited awhile it would have gone away, most problems eventually do if you ignore them long enough. Word to the wise…based on my experiences.
**
** NEW ANNIVERSARY – NEW EVIDENCE
Every year, when one of these ‘anniversaries’ of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy rolls around, new details and/or new photos related to the incident always seem to emerge.
This year is no exception.
A number of things have already appeared, even though the actual ‘anniversary’ hasn’t arrived yet.
I’m going to list just few of them below as ‘Replies’, since each one requires some explanation and some associated ‘hyperlinks’.
** NEW PHOTO SHOWING SMOKE COLUMN ENTERING THE BOX CANYON
KPNX 12 News, based in Phoenix, Arizona, just ran an article about the grand opening of the new “Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew Learning and Tribute Center” at what used to be an old Footlocker shoe store inside the Prescott Gateway mall.
( Yes… you heard that right… in an old shoe store… in a MALL )
That article is here…
KPNX 12 News, Phoenix
Article Title: Tribute center for Granite Mountain Hotshots ready to open
Author: Jessica De Nova
Published: 5:51 PM PST June 25, 2018
Updated: 6:20 PM PST June 25, 2018
https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/arizona/tribute-center-for-granite-mountain-hotshots-ready-to-open/75-567450256
From that article…
—————————————————————————————————
PRESCOTT, Ariz. – Nearly a year in the making, a center honoring the Granite Mountain Hotshots is scheduled to open to the public Friday, giving those who visit the opportunity to remember the Yarnell 19 and learn how to prevent another tragedy like this from happening again. John Marsh is chairman of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew Learning and Tribute Center board. His son, Eric Marsh, or “Papa” as he was known, was the crew’s leader.
—————————————————————————————————-
There are no big ‘reveals’ in the article itself, except, perhaps, for the fact that following the ‘grand opening’ week… this new ‘Public Tribute Center’ will ONLY ever actually be open to the public on weekends…
…but what IS interesting is the SLIDE SHOW that is included in the middle of the article.
12 News put together a SLIDE SHOW for this article that has 30 photos of the Yarnell Hill fire from their own original archives.
Photo number 16 seems to be ‘new’, and never seen before ( at least… I don’t ever recall seeing it before )… and it’s IMPORTANT.
It might be the best photographic evidence yet of the moment the Yarnell Hill fire was actually entering the box canyon, just a few minutes before all the Granite Mountain Hotshots would be killed by it.
The photo was taken on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, a few hundred yards SOUTH of the Ranch House Restaurant, on the EAST side of Highway 89 and looking out towards the box canyon and the deployment site.
The photo was taken at exactly 4:31 PM, just 8 minutes ( 480 seconds ) before Jesse Steed’s first emergency radio callout would be recorded at exactly 4:39 PM.
I say ‘exactly 4:31 PM’… because unlike a lot of other photos taken in Yarnell that afternoon… THIS one was taken with a network-connected iPhone 4S that always obtains accurate date/time information directly from the cellular network… and the original photo sitting on the ’12 News’ server still has all that ( accurate ) EXIF metadata embedded in the photograph itself.
Not only does this photo show exactly HOW and WHEN the fireline was entering the box canyon, it also appears to disprove a number of claims made in the original SAIR. More about that in another ( followup ) post.
I have used this 4:31 PM photograph to create one of those ‘through the looking glass’ crossfades from the photograph itself into the absolute equivalent ‘Google Earth’ view. After the crossfade… it ‘flies around’ the Yarnell/Glen Ilah area showing exactly where the fireline was at 4:31 PM ( as seen in the photo ).
The video ends back where it starts ( right where the photo was taken ) and then ‘crossfades’ back UP into the original photo again.
That photo ‘crossfade’ and ‘fly-around’ is here…
Video Title: Yarnell-1631-crossfade-1
https://youtu.be/_p6h5m6_W0k
And here is just some of the ( relevant ) EXIF Metadata embedded in the original photograph…
————————————————————————————————–
Filename: MARY NGUYEN 13 photo_1467319342345_3610850_ver1.0.jpg
Item type: JPG File
Size: 752 KB
Date taken: 6/30/2013 4:31 PM
Program name: ProCamera 4.1
Dimensions: 2048x 1536
Width: 2048 pixels
Height: 1536 pixels
Horizontal resolution: 72 dpi
Vertical resolution: 72 dpi
Bit depth: 24
Resolution unit: 2
Color representation: sRGB
Camera maker: Apple
Camera model: iPhone 4S
F-stop: f/2.4
Exposure time: 1/40 sec.
ISO speed: ISO-50
Focal length: 4mm
Metering mode: Pattern
Flash mode: No flash, auto
35mm focal length: 35
Brightness: 4.3660418963616321
Exposure program: Normal
White balance: Auto
EXIF version: 0221
————————————————————————————————–
Strong work WTKTT!
This seems to confirm what a lot of us suspected all along, that the crew’s view was
severely obstructed by the 2 boulder-laden hills on the north side of the bowl.
What we didn’t know at the time in regards to that speculation, was whether or not the wind-event was laying the smoke down far enough ahead of the flame-front to have provided the crew with sufficient advance warning that they obviously should have heeded (notwithstanding the 10/18 and LCES, which I’m sure RTS will correctly toss into the mix, however, as we all know by now, human factors can and will, negate all of those things in an instant!),
Your video provides a time-stamped record that; (1), shows that at a time when the wind was pounding the fire from the north, the smoke column was still ‘mostly’ going up, and not out, thereby, critically obstructing the crew’s ability to see the actual fire movement because of their location in the bowl; and (2), because of the chimney effect, the fire likely raced around the bottom corner of the most-easterly boulder strewn hill before the main fire front was even visible, as well as, racing in a southerly direction up the shoot between the 2 boulder strewn hills, topping-out almost right above their heads, giving them two “flaming fire fronts” to contend with at roughly the same time.
The previously-known-about ‘Brian Lauber’ photographs were taken just prior to the one just discovered in the 12News archives… but from from a different perspective that doesn’t reveal as much as THIS photo.
The Brian Lauber photos were taken looking WEST, but from a point on Highway 89 just north of the Ranch House Restaurant.
So although the Brian Lauber photos have always ‘suggested’ that the column was still ‘standing up’ circa the 4:30 timeframe… and that there appeared to be ‘clear air’ out in the box canyon itself ( and that it was NOT filled with blinding ‘drift smoke’, as some have suggested )…
…this photograph and the perspective IT provides PROVES those things.
1. The smoke column had not ‘laid down’ yet… even just 8 minutes before the first GM emergency radio call.
2. At 4:31 PM… there is still ( basically ) CLEAR AIR out there in the canyon, and for better or worse, a CLEAR VIEW of what was happening out ahead of them.
The box canyon had NOT filled with ‘drift smoke’.
There was still CLEAR AIR out there where they were about to die.
If they couldn’t see that column starting to come in their direction, even prior to 4:31 PM… it’s either because they were TOTALLY not paying attention… or it was because they were so ‘head deep’ in the manzanita that even after reaching the floor of the canyon they couldn’t see jack shit out ahead of them.
And speaking of CLEAR AIR… notice something else that this photo proves.
The RED SIGHTLINE I drew goes EXACTLY from the ‘eye of the camera’, then out past the exact ‘left edge’ of the smoke column, and then continues on out to a spot on the far Weaver Ridge that was STILL VISIBLE from that ‘eye of the camera’, at that point on Highway 89, at exactly 4:31 PM.
We still can’t, of course, see all the ‘smoke’ that is to the RIGHT ( north ) of that RED SIGHTLINE, because that tall-white column is blocking that view… but we can certainly see there were no ‘smoke columns’ ( at 4:31 PM ) to the LEFT ( south ) of that RED SIGHTLINE.
And that includes all the way out to the Weaver ridge, to a point that is even farther NORTH of that ‘last resting spot’ where Christopher Mackenzie shot all his photos/videos… and a point that is almost where the ‘Helipad’ was up there at that old hang-gliding circle on the Weavers.
In the photo crossfade… notice that the moment it ‘fades down’ out of the photograph into the exact equivalent ‘Google Earth’ view… that little RED BALLOON with an ‘M’ on it WAAAAY out on the ridge of the Weavers is VISIBLE. That is the exact location of GM’s ‘last resting spot’ and the place where Mackenzie shot his photos/videos.
Not only is THAT location still perfectly VISIBLE from where this photo was taken ( as late as 4:31 PM )… even more real-estate NORTH of that point out on the Weavers is ALSO ‘still visible’.
The SAIR’s original ‘fireline estimates’ for this timeframe suggest that by even a minute BEFORE this photo ( at 4:30 PM ), the fireline was ALREADY racing up the slopes on that northern side of the box canyon ( the side they could not see at all ).
This photo proves that was definitely NOT the case.
The SAIR’s fireline estimates actually don’t put the fireline reaching the TOP ( west ) side of that Saddle and being anywhere ‘visible’ up at the point where they ‘descended’ off the two-track road until 4:40 PM.
So even their OWN fireline estimate charts have never actually matched their ‘narrative’ in the SAIR that somehow… at the same exact moment they saw ‘fire in front of them’, that they looked up and also saw ‘fire behind them’ at the spot
where they began their descent into the canyon.
.
When Jesse Steed first ‘breaks in’ on the A2G radio channel at exactly 4:39 PM… it is obvious that a lot of realizations and a lot of decision making has ALREADY taken place… and they are ALREADY hard-at-work trying to clear out a place in the brush. That has never been ‘over-modulation’ heard in that first cry for help from Steed. There were at least TWO chainsaws running full-tilt-boogie near him and he was YELLING into his microphone in order to even hear himself talk and make sure he is being heard above the chainsaws.
But the SAIR needed to explain WHY these men might have thought they had no alternative but to deploy their shelters.
Their narrative NEEDED to suggest that at the moment they realized they were in deep shit ( When? 4:34? 4:35? 4:36? 4:37? ) that they were AT THAT MOMENT seeing “fire ahead of them and fire behind them”.
That ‘suggestion’ neatly took care of them having to explain why these men didn’t even TRY to ‘drop packs and run’.
But that ‘suggestion’ has never even matched their own fireline progressions, and this new photo also raises serious new questions about even their own original ‘suggested’ fireline locations in the 4:30 timeframe.
Like most evidence that emerges… .there are usually more questions raised than answered… but that’s how investigations like this go.
Example: Where in the hell was Eric Marsh at 4:31, the moment this photo was taken? Was he still anywhere near the BSR? Had he ALREADY rejoined the descending crew after having definitely been ‘out of ahead of them’? From what WE can now see in this photograph… if Eric Marsh had been anywhere out in front of those men then he should have been able to clearly SEE what WE can now see in this photograph. If Eric Marsh really was ‘out in front’ of those men… then why wasn’t he being a successful ‘forward lookout’? When did the wheels actually fall off THAT bus, ,that afternoon?
Inquiring minds still wanna know.
My post above has posited an additional theory, which based upon your cross-fade above, I believe to be quite probable: “……… as well as, racing in a southerly direction up the shoot between the 2 boulder strewn hills, topping-out almost right above their heads, giving them two “flaming fire fronts” to contend with at roughly the same time”.
This theory is totally separate from the SAIT/SAIR claim that the fire “raced up to the saddle, giving the crew fire fronts in front of and behind them”.
If you re-look at your video, at the 2:20 mark and looking mostly due south, you will see the shoot/chimney/drainage (not the saddle) between the rocky hills that I believe would have had enough convection current to pull the flames out ahead of the main fire and up and over the top, at roughly the same time the fire was getting pulled around the bend at the base.
No one will ever know if the crew retreated a bit before finding a spot to deploy, but I think that it’s a likely first instinct when presented with that situation. If they did, though, I think its not far out there to believe that the fire crested between those hills above them at approximately the same time it came ’round the bend’.
Yes… I see exactly what you are talking about.
It’s certainly a plausible theory… now that we can see AROUND that smoke column and how much fire there WASN’T ( at 4:31 PM ) out there in that ‘middle bowl’… as the SAIR fire pgrogession maps have always suggest there was.
The 4:29 PM Brian Lauber photos, taken just north of the Ranch House Restaurant, have always been considered the ‘last look’ at the fire column as it approached the mouth of the canyon. Unfortunately, we can’t see AROUND the smoke column in the Brian Lauber photos.
Well… now we can.
The 4:31 PM photo doesn’t lie.
It allows us to see AROUND that same smoke column seen 80 seconds before in the Brian Lauber photos.
There is NO FIRE ( or even any smoke to speak of ) anywhere to the LEFT of that RED SIGHTLINE from the ‘eye of the camera’ all the way out to a point on the Weaver Mountains that was far north of GM’s actual ‘last rest spot’…. from which they embarked on their fatal journey.
TTWARE,
Thanks for posting this, however, some clarification is in order.
“… notwithstanding the 10/18 and LCES, which I’m sure RTS will correctly toss into the mix, however, as we all know by now, human factors can and will, negate all of those things in an instant!”
Yes indeed. Those pesky human factors, ey. They can either keep you OUT of trouble or steer you headlong into the deep shit as was the case for the headstrong GMHS that fatal day
WTKTT,
Excellent work. Would you please, if possible, add in the Yarnell Fuel/Fire Break along the Sesame Street and The Shrine corridor because there is suggestive evidence that a “maverick” firing operation was taking place
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on June 28, 2018 at 11:58 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Excellent work. Would you please, if possible, add in the
>> Yarnell Fuel/Fire Break along the Sesame Street and The
>> Shrine corridor…
You are talking about that original ‘escape route’ between Yarnell and Glen Ilah, correct?
Former Yarnell Fire Chief Peter Andersen himself described this planned ‘escape route’ in his original interview with InvestigativeMEDIA’s John Dougherty…
The Phoenix New Times
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Ignored Major Mistakes by the State
Published: October 16, 2013 | 12:00pm
Author: John Dougherty
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state-6667860
From the start of the video interview with Chief Andersen…
—————————————————————-
Q: Was the State totally aware of the volatile situation here ( in Yarnell )?
Absolutely.
Q: Did you talk to them personally… here?
Ahm… one of the supervisors for the State, on Fri… Saturday night when I went up to the fire station… had formerly been a guard ( Andersen makes quote marks in the air with his fingers for the next word ) “firefighter” on a prison crew… and then he wanted to get outta the DOC part… so we hired him here as a firefighter/EMT. So he was on my department for maybe six months or longer. Knew him very well. He KNOWS this area. He KNOWS what this area is all about and the fire danger here.
Q: Who was that?
That was Phil Brullio.
Q: Did you feel like there was sense of urgency.
( Immediately and with emphasis ) NO.
Q: Did you feel like they just wanted to let it burn?
Yea… actually. I did.
Q: Describe that… why did you think they just wanted to let it burn?
Because I told several of the people that our prevailing winds up here come from the southwest, typically, and they don’t start up in the morning until between 8:00 and 9:00 o’clock. I said… this being summertime… that’ll give you three hours free without wind at your backs to be able to get this thing under control.
My wife and I come out here and have our coffee in the morning.
We’re out here from maybe 6:45 or 7:00 o’clock… and…
At 8:03 Granite Mountain Hotshots’ two buggies went by.
Right after they went by… the leaves started to blow.
I just shook my head.
They ( the State ) didn’t listen to me.
Q: They got here too late?
Too LITTLE, too late.
They got dozers out there… ah…
We built an emergency escape route for Yarnell in case there was a burnout like this and people were unable to get out. We had an emergency escape route for either Yarnell to get out through Glen Ilah or Glen Ilah to get out through Yarnell… and it was back there… well… it went through that area below the Shrine… west of the Shrine… and they had dozers back there widening that so that it would create a fire break.
Too little, too LATE, man.
You shoulda been done doin’ all that Saturday morning.
( snip )
——————————————————————–
This ‘escape route’ that they were trying to turn into a ‘firebreak’ on Sunday, June 30, 2013 is already clearly visible in the recent video upload.
If you pause the video at +58 seconds, then the part of that ‘firebreak’ and road system that was designed to be used as an ‘esacpe route’ to/from Glen Ilah/Yarnell is clearly visible on the right side of the video frame.
The BLUE ‘balloon’ that marks the ‘DOZER Staging area’ is the beginning of that ‘escape route’. That point is right where the pavement ends for both Lakewood and Manzanita. The ‘road’ leading north from that place where both the DOZER loboy and the Blue Ridge Superintendent vehicles were ‘staged’ is clearly visible in the video frame leading NORTH from the BLUE ‘balloon’.
If you pause the video again at +1:35, that same ‘escape route’ road system is again clearly visible in the upper right corner of the video frame. The ‘rock-face mound’ that has now appeared in the extreme upper right corner is, in face, the Shrine Road and Shrine Road Youth Camp area(s).
At +2:17, and now ‘flying back towards Yarnell’, the Harper Canyon, Shrine Road Youth Camp and Shrine Road area(s) are now clearly visible on the upper LEFT side of the video frame. That ‘escape route’ road system leading from Shrine Road area back over to Glen Ilah and that BLUE balloon marking the ‘DOZER Staging area’ are also clearly visible ‘on the ground’ there.
At +2:31… anotherr good view of the ‘escape route’ between Glen Ilah and Yarnell. It’s now occupying the bottom left corner of the video frame.
At +3:05… probably the best view of this ‘escape route’. It’s now in the foreground and occupying ( from left to right ) the bottom center of the video frame over to the bottom right corner.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> …because there is suggestive evidence that a
>> “maverick” firing operation was taking place.
There have ALWAYS been ‘suggestions’ that there were “maverick” firing options taking place the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
They have ranged from actual testimony about it happening from Peeples Valley firefighters ( which they later mysteriously retracted? ), to reports of spent fusees being found ‘out there’ ( even supposedly by Type 1 IMT Alan Sinclair ), to reports of photos and videos showing it happening.
But so far… the only KNOWN ( and provable ) ‘manual burnout’ that took place that day was SPGS2 Darrell Willis’ team ‘torching’ the side of Hays Ranch Road as they were evacuating from the Double Bar ‘A’ Ranch that day. That ‘torching’ may have contributed to the fire that encroached on the Sickles Ranch Road area, up by Peeples Valley, but it was all too far north to have contributed in any way to the conflagration down in Yarnell/Glen Ilah.
For the record… I ( me, personally ) am still ready to believe just about anything regarding this Yarnell Fire thing. So I am not ( nor will I ever ) say it is NOT POSSIBLE there MIGHT have been some “maverick” ignitions there near Yarnell or Glen Ilah that day…
…but you know me. I am all about EVIDENCE… and whether something is PROVABLE.
With all the KNOWN lies and half-truths that have already come out of the mouths of just about everyone who worked this fire and is still alive… nothing would surprise me, at this point.
Hell… it wouldn’t even surprise me to learn that ( perhaps ) Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball himself was just willy-nilly tossing lit fusees off the dozer that day as he rode back south with dozer operator Paul Morin to where the dozer loboy was staged.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s ( and Paul Morin’s ) whereabouts and actual ‘actions’ during the late afternoon are still shrouded in mystery…. when they should NOT be.
Who knows. Given the level of ‘cover-up’ that has ALWAYS been ( and is STILL ) going on… just about anything remains ‘possible’… I suppose.
CORRECTION
I said ( above )….
——————————————————————
But so far… the only KNOWN ( and provable ) ‘manual burnout’ that took place that day was SPGS2 Darrell Willis’ team ‘torching’ the side of Hays Ranch Road as they were evacuating from the Double Bar ‘A’ Ranch that day. That ‘torching’ may have contributed to the fire that encroached on the Sickles Ranch Road area, up by Peeples Valley, but it was all too far north to have contributed in any way to the conflagration down in Yarnell/Glen Ilah.
——————————————————————–
That is actually not totally true.
There WERE some other ‘known’ and ‘provable’ times ( on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ) when firefighters were putting ‘fire on the ground’.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots themselves started a burnout as soon as they arrived up at the anchor spot that day. That is the burnout that was then extinguished via SEAT drops by ATGS Rory Collins, forcing GM to change tactics and ‘go direct’.
There were also some other ( small ) ‘structure protection’ burnouts by crews working up north in the Peeples Valley area… such as the Globe Type 2 DOC crew and the crew that was working in the Miner’s Camp Road area.
Has John Dougherty requested an interview wit Paul Morin?
Actually…I misspoke when I wrote we are at 99.9% in agreement. My arc bends to more inclusive than yours. I don’t know what my final number will be, maybe 80% “crew” human factors and 20% “others” human factors, although those are still human factors like W said (I think) sometimes bad things happen, but that is because people do stupid things and make bad decisions. I’m going to guess your arc is pretty much true North pointing right at the heart of the crew.? And I just can’t go that far.
But…as WTKTT just proved in a big way and Joy may be getting ready to illustrate, we don’t know everything…yet. Or at least I sure as hell don’t.
I’m smellin’ what your steppin’ in…
Seriously, I’m with you. Waiting patiently.
W
Followup on the 4:31 PM photo….
Here is a direct link to that photograph that 12News is currently using in their ‘slideshow’ on that recently published article.
This is the ‘full sized’ copy of the original photo, complete with the original EXIF metadata still ’embedded’ in the photograph…
http://content.12news.com/photo/2016/06/30/MARY%20NGUYEN%20%2013%20photo_1467319342345_3610850_ver1.0.JPG
** THE BRIAN LAUBER 4:29:39 PM PHOTO
Speaking of the Brian Lauber photo(s)…
Below is a link to a ‘crossfade’ on Brian Lauber’s IMG_1334.JPG photo, taken at exactly 4:29:39 PM from Highway 89, just north of the Ranch House Restaurant.
This ‘crossfade’ video was uploaded to Youtube back on August 4, 2014.
The interior of the ‘box canyon’ is on the left side of the photo, but is being obscured by that ‘tree’ there in the foreground on the west side of Highway 89.
The small ‘dark mound’ just to the left of the smoke column is actually that infamous protrusion of the north side wall of the box canyon itself.
In this photo… taken just about 80 seconds BEFORE the new 4:31 PM photo featured above, we can definitely see that same tall ‘white smoke column’
acting as the ‘leading edge’ of the fireline as it starts to enter the canyon.
But ( unlike the 4:31 PM photo ) this photo shows the ‘flames’ as well.
Notice the CLEAR AIR over the box canyon.
As the 4:31 photo also shows, the column had NOT ‘laid down’ yet and the box canyon was definitely NOT filling with ‘drift smoke’.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib555t2tTdY
WOW…Amazing work as usual. Stunning, revealing, critical, etc. Thank you!
You are a genius
This link should also compliment Wtktt on the discussion of plumes as it offers a time lapse video on June 30 from a security camera showing fire behavior and I am already asking owner for original to make sure it was not redacted.
I apologize but yesterday was more a social day vs getting data on that page but glad I did because I met a man who was YCSO stationed on June 30 2013…a lot of folks who have PRIVATELY shared to me and do not lay in public records if I have not said can I share on you then again stop with the incoming on that topic because your story is safe with me…I know the sensitivity of your positions if you were on the fire or just in the industry. At no time will I throw you and your account in the public eye unless we have discussed it. Air to ground on YHF…your accounts I do think you may have to be pushed out though for the fact Deer Valley Dispatch/Pete Masiel/Paul Morin and Corey Ball and certain dispatch never acknowledge my requests so yeah those folks are not in the clear and your account I may have to if this webpage sharing does not shake the ones to speak up. A lot hoped I would hold fear but I do have a person who is safely allowing God’s plan to connect and sorry for all affected on this 5th anniversary and this Summer my only plan is to drive all over Arizona piecing the interviews and getting the webpage data out there. I have had international response from only 2 blog inserts. I used question formats for title subject to share I am giving some still time to come out and call John Dougherty or email him with your YHF account…if you do not than after all the data is out the world will know looking here I did try…I have a professional grammar helper aka ghost writer who takes my ideas and key points to formulate sentences versus dot dot dot…I want to present the data proper and with the highest respect and with fairness for all.. I trust the person writing my words into real sentences. I know some thought woe Joy…she went to the Wildfire Academy this year and they made me into a smart lady…you better believe it…I learned most instructors currently teaching was on the YHF who only share and discuss if it goes by what Brad Mayhew and his team put out…as the next 5 years unfold you will see these last 5 years and what I gathered and held on but recently was told what I have are the missing swiss cheese pieces and I did not even know it. I am not a firefighter JUST JOY…A housewife hiker. I ate a gluten free 🍕 pizza and its keeping me up…I was invited today and tomorrow GMHS events but my focus this weekend is my 46th bday with family and friends. If I do anything besides my July 1st celebration it will be to jot on that webpage. I am going at it like a person who is Spring Cleaning and so I will do my best to present the data in a way that is mindful and I was pondering Gary if I should post the data where you are talked about and I decided I will present it when I come across it for you but the person will not like it so I may email it and first running that specific area by a lawyer. I can say this wtktt, Brad Mayhew will not be storming to the front of the room to tell me his perception because what I begin to unravel will be the actual data and sources and I bet Brad ends up inside his thougjt process… wishing 5 years ago he interviewed me for the SAIR personally…I am here to state I never had an interview as the eyewitness from the lead investigator at any time since the tragedy that should of never happened…There is a man running in honor of the GMHS…he is gonna be in Congress/Yarnell this weekend…I am so far away from the events and this is my first year I will not be dping the events but I figured how could I honor the Fallen but share what I know about YHF finally. God Bless.
And as Sonny said and now RTS said…I never met a crazy bed bug or even any…try to not lay my head to meet any to know if they are or not but as I told Strawberry Pine FFs this time taking to share what I gathered is very sensitive matter and I have been moody…I hope for some kick butt cake 🎂and ice cream to kick out the moods once and for all…I just know my family and hubby are glad I am away if I am having these challenges…it such a bullshit to witness…so dumb…and at 4:38am the wrong number text me:
If you knew who was with you every moment of every day , you would never experience anxiety or fear ever again.
Just remember, that we can do all things with GOD, who straightens us.
The power of prayer is much stronger than any negativity or fear and I know you have that power to back you up. I believe in you.
So even wrong numbers text me stating what I know but not living…have a great weekend best we all can because this time of the year is very hard on me.
I forgot link
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/06/28/Are-These-Possible-Indications-of-YH-Fire-Burnout-Operations-In-The-Peeples-Valley-Area-On-June-30-2013
You’ve done good, Joy!
Well…I’m just checking in to let all of my friends and confidants know I am doing fine. I have been busy taking care of a lot of personal issues that are even more important than YOU PEOPLE are.
But…I have been trying to stay current on your discussions so I don’t fall to far behind. I finished my final chapter in just a ouple of days because it was all floating around inside my head already and I just had to type it out. But…I am taking my time editing it because I want to make sure I include all of my thoughts on the subject in one shot so as to cut down on my copyrighted phrase, “Oh…and one more thing” additions.
And frankly…I don’t think I will have very much, if anything to say after my last chapter has been published, at least until…you know, I get my book finished. I would really like to be a person whose absence is felt rather than a person whose presence is noticed…or something like that?
I especially enjoyed reading The Woodsman’s explanation of how locking hubs work because there are only three topics that really hold my attention for very long these days and those are;
1. Guns
2. Four wheel drive systems
3. Well…I guess there are only two topics after all?
But…I do have one (1) comment. Just because WTKTT thinking locking hubs were something you have to lock to keep people from stealing your tires and wheels was just about the funniest thing I have read this year. I mean…it was like…ROTFFLMAO!
Whoops, got sidetracked again, so here is my comment. That small gap in his data base in no way proves he isnt AI. All that proves is there was a glitch in his (he isn’t gender neutral, we know he was programmed to represent himself with a male personality when he demonstrates any personality at all) in his initial programming and he needed a system patch or bug fix…that’s all that proves.
I also want to brag…because you know me. When I had my van dropped shipped new to http://quadvan.com/ to be built, I specifically had it built with old school locking hubs just because I like the way they look and I like getting out in the deep mud, snow and sand to remind myself to always follow RTS’s advice and lock them BEFORE I get in troubal. But then again, if I always do that…I won’t get to use my Warn WARN 16.5ti (16.5 thousand pound) Thermometric Winch as much.
And just FYI…this is the second time that I know of the Logan Hotshots being made famous…at least they seemed to have gotten the memo that there is always an option to deploying fire shelters in areas that aren’t survivable…RUN!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3GD1p0hV8w4
Speaking of bragging. The Nightline crew came out to the Four Corners at my invitation and did an entire program on one of my cases when I was an agent. I spent about two weeks filming with their crew. See…my use for the news media didn’t leave me after I stopped bragging about my crew to any news media who would listen to me or wanted to film the best of the best…in ACTION!
Oh…and one more thing. A Random thought For The Day popped into my head today. I don’t know why these things happen sometimes? I can’t help it, my head is full of all kinds of nonsense and random thoughts and ever since I accepted Death With Benefits status, I don’t really have an outlet for my over-the-top imagination.
Anyway,
WTKTT posted in part,
———————————————————————————————————–
To: Harbour, Tom – FS ( Director, Fire and Aviation Management HQ )
From: Ed and Sandy Hollenshead ( idsandyanded (at) gmail.com )
Sent: Jul 29, 2013, at 3:01 PM
Subject: Musings
Hello Tom, Ed Hollenshead here…
I’ll be leaving Prescott later today as Darrell and Judy are taking some well earned time away and my mission, for now, has ended. As the last of the laundry tumbles in the dryer I decided to share something that bas been on my mind for more than a few years; something that popped up in my mind as a contributor to the tragedy in Yarnell, AZ.
On June 30 there were sufficient qualified overhead on the Yarnell Hill fire to staff l-OSC2, 2-OBD ( wildland and structure ), 2-DIVS and 2-TFL. Instead, the organization consisted of 2-OSC, a structure protection specialist ( OSC2 qualified ), and a DIVS ( GMIHC Superintendent Marsh ). My concern is not what they decided to do there, but what they didn’t do… mold the organization to fit the complexity of the incident.
I’ve seen any number of times where standing team configurations ( many now sporting not l, not 2, but 3-OSC ) hamper the creativity ICS was intended to encourage. Standard organizations are being shoe-horned into every incident regardless of its nature or complexity, and command and control are suffering. The use of the OBD is rare outside R5 and 6, instead an OSC is left in camp to serve as “Planning OPS” and the “Line Ops” ( sometimes 2-OSC each operational period ) is ( are ) doing what OBDs should be doing … working and adjusting the plan, informing, coordinating, and communicating up, down, and sideways. I attribute this to standard configuration language that nearly always ignores the OBD position.
I think there is enough anecdotal evidence that IMT performance suffers because of the lack of creativity in forming and applying command structures that address the unique issues presented by the incident.
Perhaps it is ripe to be a point of emphasis during in-briefings and closeouts this year and for the 2014 IMT meetings.
Respectfully,
-ed- ( Hollenshead )
———————————————————————————
So here is my random thought. My friend from the old days was in a better place than almost anybody to evaluate what went wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire and this was all he could come up with that went WRONG?
.”I’ve seen any number of times where standing team configurations ( many now sporting not l, not 2, but 3-OSC ) hamper the creativity ICS was intended to encourage. Standard organizations are being shoe-horned into every incident regardless of its nature or complexity, and command and control are suffering. The use of the OBD is rare outside R5 and 6, instead an OSC is left in camp to serve as “Planning OPS” and the “Line Ops” ( sometimes 2-OSC each operational period ) is ( are ) doing what OBDs should be doing … working and adjusting the plan, informing, coordinating, and communicating up, down, and sideways. I attribute this to standard configuration language that nearly always ignores the OBD position.”
Like I told The Woodsman before, I am only fluent in LFO and I only know enough ICS to confuse myself, but I would have thought given his level of experience he could have come up with more than a discussion regarding the pros and cons of using the OBD position on the most God forsaken and fucked up fire (if measured by hotshot body count, and that’s how I measure them) in the history of wildland firefighting!
WTF is wrong with people like him? Do they get all of their fucking brains, common sense and integrity sucked out of their heads above a certain GS rating? Fuckin’ whores (non gender specific). I mean really? C’mon man!
Oh…and one more thing.
I think technically speaking the correct questions would be, “WTF is wrong with people like him? Do they get all of their fucking brains sucked out of their heads above a certain GS rating?”
In addition to, “WTF is wrong with people like him? Do they get all of their fucking integrity sucked out of their souls above a certain GS rating?”
I’m not even going to try and address their apparent lack of common sense in this restricted format.
And just as a reminder for those who don’t track my resume as closely as they should…the strong bond that Ed and I had at one time was based on the fact we were both off the Mighty Coconino N.F. as former hotshot crew bosses.
At one time, the Ed I knew would have threatened to beat the shit out of anyone who talked like he does now unless they backed down, backed up, and backed off. Which they would have done…cause the old Ed was half fuckin’ crazy at least half the time and all fuckin’ crazy for the other half!
Just one more really important bit of information. The factory Ford locking hubs are made by WARN, so my manual hubs have WARN embossed on them. They like really good just FYI. I also saved $2000.00 on my van’s conversion…so there was that as well. All of that electronic stuff comes with a price tag.
Whoops…damn auto spell.
“They LOOK really good just FYI.”
Gary said:
“At one time, the Ed I knew would have threatened to beat the shit out of anyone who talked like he does now unless they backed down, backed up, and backed off. Which they would have done…”
My question is, what happens to people that make them change?
W
W,
I am pretty sure you are asking a question you already know the answer to. It’s the same answer that explains why humans have committed inhuman acts ever since we as a species were squatting in caves and gnawing on bones we managed to steal from more capable predators.
The desire for power, fame, and fortune and the accessories to life those things bring to those people who have more power, fame and fortune than others is the answer you are ostensibly searching for with your rhetorical question,
Except I misspoke in my first paragraph, the bad things we do as humans aren’t inhuman at all. The word inhumane is a misnomer. That’s the root of all of our problems, inhuman acts are really all to human..
Humans naturally do bad things to each other, their environment, other species…everything we humans come in contact with or we can reach through extraordinary means. That actually makes the bad things we do as humans, very human acts that are not inhumane at all.
Being Dead With Benefits has given me a chance to become a history buff which I have always been interested in but never had the time to pursue. The more history of mankind I study, the more convinced I become we are actually a virulent infestation on this planet as a species.
And I believe the world will actually be a much better place once we humans have finally manage to pursue our ultimate destiny to its inevitable and final conclusion. And that is because in doing so…we will finally manage to completely and utterly wipe ourselves out and our species will go extinct,
The more good some of us do will slow down this process and alter its natural progression. But in the end, the long arc of the short history of our species on this planet is inexorably bending towards our ultimate and just annilahation.
Wait…was this the plot of that latest Tom Hanks movie?
The one where famous symbologist Robert Langdon (Tom Hanks) follows a trail of clues tied to Dante, the great medieval poet. When Langdon wakes up in an Italian hospital with amnesia, he teams up with Sienna Brooks (Felicity Jones), a doctor he hopes will help him recover his memories. Together, they race across Europe and against the clock to stop a madman (Ben Foster) from unleashing a virus that could wipe out half of the world’s population?
Because I didn’t see that movie, but I did watch it’s movie trailer several times. Maybe that’s where I got all of this from?
G
Oh…fuck this, I got to get back to work. Even if that work is POINTLESS.
OK…sometimes I am like an old dog gnawing on a bone and sometimes I just can’t force myself to rebury it…I just keep gnawing.
So…I can’t help but ask The Woodsman this one (1) question, although I would like to get answers fro everyone who partipates here on this thread, which would be like 5…or 6 answers for my non scientific study since my sample group is waaaaay it small to make this research experiment pass any kind of peer review. Ecpxcept maybe from my peers of YOU PEOPLE .
Question: Do you know which single word, based on my historical study of our species here on this planet, has caused more inhuman acts committed by humans which include death, destruction, suffering, rape, pillaging, genocide, ethnic cleansing etc. than any other single word in the history of our species?
My question isn’t new or unique, I just want to know what YOU PEOPLE think the answer is. I know HAL 9000 gets it, cause you know…he’s AI and is programmed to study us humans.
oh…and one more thing. I would really like to hear from my dear old friend on this one…RTS.
Gary,
I would say the responsible word is “religion.”
I believe in the human race but not a human species. Humans are not animals, although we are mammals.
All this species feculence started with the renowned evolutionist Charles Darwin
https://answersingenesis.org/racism/are-there-really-different-races/
Thank you for your response.
I was thinking of “religion” as well. Although since religion is a means to an end to enable one person to have power over another person (for every religion except for the one you happen to believe in, “you” meaning everyone not my old friend RTS exclusively because the one you believe in is the ONE true religion as opposed to all of the others) I am also going to have to agree with The Woodsman who chose “power.”
I think maybe power is just the macro view of it all and religion drills down on the issue a little bit more….gets us into the weeds just a little bit so to speak.
In any case, I am going to find another new hobby other than studying history because it is just too damn depressing!
Almost all of it starts and ends with an individual, a family, a tribe, a city state, a country, an empire or some combination of all of the above attacking, pillaging, killing, raping, plundering and destroying their neighbors who are weaker than they are.
I’m afraid the human RACE (sorry RTS, I am a product of the public school system which is governed by case law from The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes so I studied evolution and not creationism). There weren’t any cave men riding on dinosaurs in the text books I studied. Although I do use the term “studied” very loosely since I have always applied the principles of “71 gets you a badge and a gun” throughout my life and not just during my months of hell at FLETC.
I have never really been an over achiever except for being a hotshot…I took to that like a duck to water once I got over the shock of what the job entailed the first couple of seasons. It was kinda like learning how to enjoy chewing on tinfoil and shaving my head with a cheese grater.
Although I also agree with the Vatican in that believing in both God and science are not mutually exclusive propositions because you know…God moves in mysterious ways…right RTS?
I was thinking of “religion” as well. Although since religion is a means to an end to enable one person to have power over another person (for every religion except for the one you happen to believe in, “you” meaning everyone not my old friend RTS exclusively because the one you believe in is the ONE true religion as opposed to all of the others) I am also going to have to agree with The Woodsman who chose “power.”
I think maybe power is just the macro view of it all and religion drills down on the issue a little bit more….gets us into the weeds just a little bit so to speak.
In any case, I am going to find another new hobby other than studying history because it is just too damn depressing!
Almost all of it starts and ends with an individual, a family, a tribe, a city state, a country, an empire or some combination of all of the above attacking, pillaging, killing, raping, plundering and destroying their neighbors who are weaker than they are.
I’m afraid the human RACE (sorry RTS, I am a product of the public school system which is governed by case law from The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes so I studied evolution and not creationism). There weren’t any cave men riding on dinosaurs in the text books I studied. Although I do use the term “studied” very loosely since I have always applied the principles of “71 gets you a badge and a gun” throughout my life and not just during my months of hell at FLETC.
I have never really been an over achiever except for being a hotshot…I took to that like a duck to water once I got over the shock of what the job entailed the first couple of seasons. It was kinda like learning how to enjoy chewing on tinfoil and shaving my head with a cheese grater.
Although I also agree with the Vatican in that believing in both God and science are not mutually exclusive propositions because you know…God moves in mysterious ways…right RTS?
God is good Gary. Through all the trials this site has faced the world is about to see much more of YHF through my eyes as I have officially got word my legal rights on what I can share. I will build a domain today and anyone wanting that link just email me at [email protected]
Only those that email me their desire to learn about the burn out operations not yet spoken about or how people have written about Gary or Fred or me or others will be presented on this page.
Please bear with me because if it was not for IM folks I would not be doing this but yesterday I spoke to a lawyer a final time. Some people will not like being on my domain but all I post are documented facts. Like I said bear with me as I build this because I WANT it done slow and right and finally ORGANIZED with timestamps
WHAT?
Let me get this straight…do you mean to tell me I have possibly disappointed or even angered SOME people by expressing my views here?
And furthermore, are you suggesting that SOME of those people have written negative things about ME?
Thank God…I was afraid I was losing my ability to really piss off the right people!
Oh…and one more thing. Fred and I can go after each other because compared to me, he is usually way off base.
But nobody…and I mean NOBODY can legitimately criticize Fred and I together when it comes to all matters pertaining to hotshots.
There are a few others we will listen to, but NOBODY we will defer to when it comes to hotshot matters.
Together…Fred and I wrote the fuckin’ MANUAL on all things hotshot related.
And just in case someone needs to be reminded who I am and Fred was, Fred is the longest serving hotshot crew boss in the history of hotshot crews.
And me? I am and will always be…the youngest and most capable hotshot crew boss in the history of hotshot crews.
Fred and I are like two hotshot crew boss bookends. So…
Bookends that have a combined wight of way over 1/4 ton of beef.
Bookends that have a combined wight of way over 1/4 ton of beef and stand well over 13 feet tall.
Corrections,
“weight” not wight.
And Fred and I stand well over 13 feet (almost 14 feet) in our Whites.
And I forgot to brag about fully one half of my lifelong claim to fame…I started a USFS hotshot crew from scratch and there are very few who can claim that accomplishment.
There have been lots of new hotshot crews started by other agencies since the 1980’s, but there have been very few started by the USFS in that time since USFS hotshot crews have been in existence since 1947 – 48.
So…you know, tell my detractors I said they can FUCK OFF!
Oh…and one more thing, I DO NOT HAVE AN ANGER MANAGEMENT PROBLEM!
I have an “anger management asset.” I have always found that bringing an edge with me to the task at hand, assists me in accomplishing said task to the required standards at a minimum and usually way above the required standards.
🙂
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/
It has glitches on Firefox but works on cells. No lists
The world can see. I started my first blog on a recent topic behind the scenes of locals NOW interested in talking about the separate smoke plume columns in area of Shrine and Sesame so started first blog on that but it will all come out as the Summer unfolds..
I have a relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, which I and many other believe is the Son of the “ONE true” God. That is a huge difference from “religion.” Religion is a means to an end, for many, to enable one quasi-political and/or quasi-military group, usually led by one person or a group of persons called a Council, to have power over other persons. I too agree with The Woodsman and Joy who chose “power” but not power alone.
These quasi-political/military groups almost all begin and end with an individual, family, tribe, city, state, city-state, country, empire, or some combination of all of the above attacking, pillaging, killing, raping, plundering and destroying their neighbors who are weaker than they are. That sure sounds a lot like the original Papacy, the quasi-military Jesuits, and the two separate Inquisitions responsible for years of calculated mayhem, death, and destruction of countless innocents.
I agree with the term “human RACE” so no need be sorry. I too am a product of the public school system governed by the Scope’s trial case law. I was taught evolution and I study and believe in creationism. The term “dinosaur” is only about a hundred years old and they are referred to as “dragons, Behemoth, and Leviathan” in The Bible.
Not at all sure what you mean by “71 gets you a badge and a gun,” so help me out on that one.
I totally disagree with the quasi-government Vatican on almost everything, however, if it stated that “believing in both God and science are not mutually exclusive propositions,” then I would have to agree with that statement. The Bible, mainly the Old Testament, is replete with science.
You’re right Gary, God does move in mysterious ways. To quote Sonny: “That girl is crazier than a bedbug.” Just wait to see what she comes up with next.
And one more thing, you will “always be the youngest [AND] most capable hotshot crew boss in the history of hotshot crews.”
However, you will not be the most capable.
But he actually used the word “and.” I’m not sure you know what the use of brackets means in legal writing. [ ]
I know what you meant though.
I also read between your lines & I’m looking forward to the revelation.
P.s. you must admit, you & Gary ARE a force to be reckoned with. Am I right? Yup. I am.
“However, you will not be the most capable.”
Hmmm. Will not or is not or was not? I’m so confused. What are you trying to say?
I’m with you: words have meaning. Just curious is all. Can you admit that both you & Gary are powerhouses when it comes to hotshot street cred? You each bring a huge hammer to the table with unique experiences unlike most others. We’re not still measuring are we? At this age? Even I’m getting too old for that despite the high probability that mine’s much larger. Hahaha!!!
Old farts rule! Where’s Bob when you need him?
I guess my point is that both you & Gary have made unique & revelant contributions to the legacy & history of hotshots in the US. Without comparing who made a larger impact ( because it doesn’t really matter in this context) both of you have impeccable pedigrees which uniquely qualify you to speak of such topics without question.
I’m regretting getting in the middle of the former hotshot crewboss jousting match. I’ll simply say that united = productive, divided = unproductive. Stay focused on what’s important.
Fred,
You are incorrigible and I love you for it…man! And just for the record and all joking aside…I do understand I was never the most capable hotshot crew boss in the history of hotshot crews.
The only thing I ever had going for me was my refusal or inability to quit when I should have and my enthusiasm and love for the job. You know I have admitted this many times on this thread by stating I was just a cowboy who rode hard for the brand and shot from the hip…on my best days.
In fact, based on how you have described you ran your crew…you were probably the most capable hotshot crew boss in history because you made independent wildland firefighters out of FNG’s who were more prepared for their futures.
I concentrated on making cogwheels out of FNG’s who meshed flawlessly with the wildland firefighting machine that was our crew because that is what my crew bosses had made me into, a cog in their machine…although it worked well for us.
You know, because when the crew boss said it was Easter…we immediately started searching for those fuckin’ eggs. But…I understand now all hotshot crews are organized and run a little differently. I did think there was just one way when I first joined this thread, but you and Bob got me all squared away.
As far as God goes, you and I worship the same one in the same way…more or less. We will settle our differences once we are both sitting at his feet because that is where all wildland firefighters belong!
And as far as “they” go, they love to play Whack-a-Mole, they just don’t like it when the moles hit back. And thanks to this brave new world, social media and this blog or thread, or whatever it is…we have a platform to hit back!
As for The Woodsman. goes, when he is right…he is right! And in this case he is right on…nobody can fuck with you and me together on all matters related and pertaining to hotshots, although I do understand I’m not up to speed on current developments, like a hotshot manual, etc.
God Bless America…since we relied on nothing but an oral tradition and some things did fall through the huge gaps in our system of discussing the last fire, the next fire…or some over fire at the bars drunk on our victories. And furthermore…we are in agreement on 99.9 % of what went wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire, which means they can take it to the bank and cash it, because that fuckin’ check is good.
And as far as “71 gets you a badge and a gun” I have used that reference once before…about five years ago on this blog. And frankly…I am a little disappointed you don’t remember it. At FLETC the minimum score for all testing is 70%. And if people fall below that standard they get sent home without jobs anymore…hence, “71 gets you a badge and a gun”, which was the standard I lived my life by, more or less. Although as I have written before, if I could do it all over again I would…except I would work harder to get it right next time!
As far as what our sweetheart Joy is up to, who knows? But I do know I am happy they put me in the same category as they did her…I love wacky, it makes life just a little bit more interesting and fun.
Now…this has been a welcome distraction from my work, but I have to get back to editing my final chapter because the fuckin’ thing isn’t going to edit itself!
Oh…and just one more thing Fred. The USFS must not have thought you needed a sense of humor because apparently they never issued you one.
W,
You know it’s not important how big my hammer is. What is important is how well I can use it and how hard I can pound in those nails. At least that is what guys with tack hammers like to believe.
And back to an earlier discussion, when you are a hammer…everything looks like a nail. As wildland firefighters, we were hammers and every fire was a nail…and we pounded it.
The NPS could learn a lot from us…but they won’t. They are just too arrogant and convinced of their own superiority…although only
God knows why? I think it is institutional failure on a grand scale.
G
I was thinking religion…politics…weather…..or how about fire Gary…
I say religion
Thank you for your reply.
Power.
Thank you for your reply.
I win. I don’t need a prize. Knowing I beat Gary at his own thought game is more than enough payment. Way more. Anyone else want to play? Didn’t think so. Who’s your daddy?!!!???!! Boom!!!
The best part is that I know you already had your answer and then…
What can I say? It’s all I have left, man.
And if everyone has been following my comments as closely as you should have been on this thread, what I am about to write you will already be familiar with….more or less.
You see….because it’s like this. People like Mike Dudley, Shawna Legarza, Ed Hollenshead and Darrell Fuckin’ Willis don’t see themselves or each other as the “bad guys” in all of this.
In fact, they are all the central figures and the heroes of the screen plays that run in each of their brains…on a loop. They even play important but lessor heroes in each other’s fantasies. They are the protagonists of their own stories. The people who participate on this thread, all play the role of the antagonists in their ongoing sagas starring them.
They have been lying to themselves and each other for so long…they don’t even know what the truth is anymore. They started going down that very long and gentle slippery slope so long ago…and it was so gradual at first, they didn’t even really notice it. Actually….that was the very first lie they told themselves that they wanted desperately to believe, and so they did.
They did notice they were on a slippery slope that led to perdition, but they rationalized what they were doing, those initial small acts that really weren’t wrong, and they could accomplish so much good if they just did this one thing.
And then it was another thing….and then another little bigger thing….and then, OK…just one more thing and then I will stop because I can really do some good by exchanging this last bad thing for so much good that will come out of it.
And hey….if I get promoted that is a good thing because in my new position, I will be able to do so much more good and I won’t even have to do any bad things as a trade off, because I will have enough power and influence to make those good things happen on my own without being forced to do the bad things.
Except that never plan never came to fruition because in fact…their new positions called on them to rationalize even bigger and worse acts to keep them going…they had to feed the monkey.
And they thought…well this will be OK and work out in the end, because the next position I get as a reward for doing these bad things, will give me so much power and influence I can really do a lot of good works and I won’t even have to do any bad things anymore. So in the end, I will be trading less bad for what will be more good and everything will be good. In fact, it will be better than good…it will be great!
And then they repeated that same pattern of behavior over and over again, for so long they finally reached the apex of their deception by convincing themselves through world class rationalizations that their bad actions….were really good actions in disguise that some people just didn’t understand because they weren’t in high enough positions to be able to see the…”Big Picture” and understand what was really important.
We won’t discuss right now just how far I went down the very same slippery slope myself, which is why I am so familiar with the path they took. Or what I did about it in the end to get off that slope…or did I? Maybe I just got really good at rationalization and lying to myself? That will take another whole book to fully explore I will never write.
Oh…and one more thing. The thing that people like Mike, Shawna, Ed, Darrell and countless others of their ilk value the most? The one (1) thing they will do and say anything to protect and preserve for future generations? The answer is what they perceive is their…LEGACY.
But since their legacy is built on layer after layer of lies and bad deeds…that is the one (1) thing in their life that is their biggest and most treacherous myth of all that sums up their entire charade of a successful career that only they and a few enablers believe by the time it is all said and done.
W,
Are you really that good…that clever? Were you trying to pull all of that out of me because you suspected it was there? Or was it just a lucky shot?
G
Maybe I am assuming way to much to assume that people like Ed, Mike Dudley and Shawna Legarza even have souls anymore?
And that is making an ass-out-of-you-and-me? Maybe that’s what they agree to give up above a certain GS rating?
And FYI…a good investigator tries to never ask a qiuestion they don’t already know the answer to.
Good to hear from you, old man. ( I’m catching up to you)
I know you are a student of hotshot fatality fires exclusively but I’m going to attempt to drag you out of your comfort zone. What do you think of the fact that the GSMNP people locked the fucking gates prohibiting citizens from escaped the massive fuckup know as the Chimney Tops 2 fire? You must have something to say about that. Right?
Glad you’re still fogging a mirror!!!
Well…I can’t actually think of anything good to say about the National Park Service FIRE program in general and their actions on the Chimney Tops 2 Fire specifically (except for their hotshot crews which are mostly made up of ex USFS hotshots). As a quick reminder, I was Secretary Of the interior Bruce Babbitt bodyguard during the Cerritos Grande Fire which remains as my go to reference point although thankfully no one was killed.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-05-19/news/0005190240_1_controlled-bandelier-national-monument-burn
I do know that fire was even more heartbreaking than the Yarnell Hill Fire because no matter what, WFWLFF (Wild Fire Wild Land Fire Fighters) all know the risks when they stand up, water up, saddle up, tool up, line up, shut up, listen up and then hump up the mountain to fight the Fiery Dragon.
But those 14 citizens, and especially the Reed children Chloe, 12, and Lillian, 9, (since my granddaughter is 12 and named Lillian) didn’t know anything about government incompetence, especially when mixed with equal parts of complacency and arrogance before they were trapped and killed by that fire.
I was also quite shocked and disappointed to read RTS’s comment that the NPS FMO being a former hotshot, which I didn’t know before now. But I do know how the budget obsessed let burn and save money complacency can gradually degrade anyone’s competency over a period of time. Just ask any State Of Arizona, Department of Forestry and Fire Management FIRE personnel who were probably good WFWLFF’s at one point in their careers.
Other than that…I can’t think of anything to say. Well…actually that’s not true, I could go on and on, but you probably get my point regarding what I think about management in general. 🙁
As far as locking the gates…you pretty much already said it. WTF were they thinking? They weren’t thinking.
“Cerro Grande Fire”
Well thanks The Woodsman…I have been thinking about the Chimney Tops 2 Fire tonight and all I can say is that I actually lack any reference point regarding how destructive, deadly and completely unnecessary that fire was.
It is also inconceivable that the FMO still has his job and apparently still goes to work there every day. How can he look at himself in the mirror, much less interact with that community?
I remember watching a news conference way back when and the Park Superintendent and the mayor backed up by the city council were all trying to explain it all away as just, “sometimes bad things happen…what can you do?”
Unbelievable! I don’t really know what to say about that fire except…unbelievable.
I will say one thing about the USFS during my 15 years with that agency, we always used the same game plan and model The Woodsman used.
If the fire used its fists, we used a baton, if the fire used a knife, we used a gun, if the fire sent one of ours to the hospital, we sent it to the morgue! (Paraphrased from “The Untouchables”)
I don’t know how they operate today, but when I was in fire operations on the Santa Fe…we didn’t fuck around. And God knows we always took guns to a knife fight on the Mighty Coconino. (Sorry…my analogies are.a little off)
The only ones who took risks were the Gila National Forest way down south in New Mexico because it was almost all wilderness and almost all of it was very remote and a long ways from any civilization.
The NPS…they fucked around with every fire…every time. No one had any respect for those shitbirds.
**
** GATLINBURG – CHIMNEY TOPS FIRE – WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUIT
On May 29, 2018 at 6:21 pm, Woodsman said…
>> I just finished reading above & saw the word “Gatlinburg” & I lost my cool.
>>
>> Now where did I put my damn anger management/ulcer pills…….
>>
>> But before I take my pills:
>>
>> The fucking GSM parkie IC to this day doesn’t believe he did anything wrong but
>> dragging feet for 3 days to take care of a fire in the rocks. The new nationwide
>> let it burn indoctrination told them to not put it out in the rocks for safety but
>> instead draw a huge fucking box in the whole drainage instead….regardless of the
>> time of year OR the potential and soon realized WX ( that means weather & it’s
>> not negotiable) ………..Ooooops, there goes the neighborhood…… and regular folks DIED
I hope you still have those pills handy.
You’re gonna need them if/when you read the following…
Fire Law Blog
Article Title:Man Who Lost Wife and Daughters in Gatlinburg Fire Sues Park Service For $14 million
Published: May 29, 2018 – By – Curt Varone
http://www.firelawblog.com/2018/05/28/man-who-lost-wife-and-daughters-in-gatlinburg-fire-sues-park-service-for-14-million/
From the article…
———————————————————————————————————-
A man who lost his wife and two daughters in the devastating wildland fire that tore through Gatlinburg, Tennessee in 2016, has filed a $14 million lawsuit against the National Park Service claiming negligence by its supervisors allowed the fire to grow to an uncontrollable size. Michael B. Reed filed suit last week in US District Court for the Eastern District of Tennessee naming the United States of America as the sole defendant.
Reed’s wife Constance and their his two daughters, Chloe, 12, and Lillian, 9, died on November 28, 2016 when the so-called Chimney Tops 2 fire overran their neighborhood. The suit accuses the National Park Service of negligence and wrongful death.
The complaint is exceptionally well written and for those interested in the details of the fire, it offers a very good read. It is 148 pages with 410 numbered paragraphs.
——————————————————————————————————–
Here is just a VERY quick summary of just ‘some’ of the claims in the 148 page filing…
——————————————————————————————————–
– The fire was initially discovered as less than a single acre in size by Greg Salansky, Fire Management Officer (FMO) of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park (GSMNP) on Wednesday, November 23, 2016.
– While Salansky and other Park officials believed the small and smoldering fire would be controlled inside the Park, eighty (80)-years of built-up ground fuels, months of severe drought conditions and a Saturday morning, November 26, 2016 National Weather Service (“NWS”) forecast of high-winds foretold a substantial change in The Chimney Tops 2 Fire’s behavior.
– The conditions, especially the high-wind forecast, should have served as “a call-to-action” for Park officials. But FMO Salansky, who had taken complete and unfettered command-control of The Chimney Tops 2 Fire, not only failed to monitor the fire for FIVE consecutive nights, but also failed to initiate any direct-attack to suppress the fire, opting instead to treat the fire as a “prescribed” burn, letting it burn inside a poorly designed and negligently implemented 410-acre “containment box.”
———————————————————————————————————-
Here is a direct link to the full 148 page court filing…
http://41af3k34gprx4f6bg12df75i.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2018/05/Reed-v-USA-COMPLAINT.pdf
WARNING: This incredibly well-researched court filing is a brutal read. It goes into GREAT DETAIL about what happened on every single day from the start of the Chimney Tops Fire until the moments civilians were being burned to death ( FIVE days later ) in Gatlinburg.
It also goes into detail about how Mr. Reed’s wife and two daughters actually died.
It’s VERY painful to read.
I didn’t know that Mr. Reed himself had to fight his way back up into his own neighborhood after first responders REFUSED to answer his wife’s 911 call. They thought it was ‘too dangerous’ to go in and try and save his wife and two daughters. He made it almost all the way back to his house. He went as far as he could and actually exited his vehicle… screaming for his wife and TWO daughters.
There was no answer.
14 million dollars is peanuts, here, given the ( now fully documented ) MASSIVE negligence involved and the unimaginable, absolutely preventable and needless loss Mr. Reed and his surviving son have had to suffer.
Constance M. Reed ( 34 years old )
Chloe E. Reed ( 12 years old )
Lillian D. Reed ( 9 years old )
There were 11 other deaths, and 200+ injured.
Greg Salansky is STILL the Fire Management Officer ( FMO ) for the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.
WTKTT,
Thanks for locating and posting this. Most sobering and disturbing story about Mr. Reed and his family.
Mountaintop spark, rising wind lit the fuse for Gatlinburg firestorm (Part 1 of a series) https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/2017/11/22/gatlinburg-wildfire-one-year-later-chimney-tops-trail/856267001/
These are directly from the article above.
“Salansky decided. Drought had made even small fires in remote spots risky. Just last week he’d gotten an email from his boss, the regional fire officer for the Southeastern U.S., warning “the big one” could be just around the corner.
Salansky had spent 30 years as a ranger with the National Park Service and the U.S. Forest Service.
Salansky and his partner climbed down to talk with the three who’d stayed behind. He saw two options: Fight the fire on the mountaintop or close the trail, wait and hope the flames burned themselves out.
The long-range forecast called for rain on Monday, Nov. 28 — four days away. If crews could hold the fire back until then, the weather might solve the problem for them.
Salansky looked at a map. Blue lines marked the nearby West Prong of the Pigeon River, along with a tributary and drainage bottom.
Fire crews in the Smokies had a saying: Blue lines on a map always hold. No fire in the park’s history had broken that rule. Salansky followed the lines and neighboring trail routes to draw up a 410-acre box he calculated would contain the blaze until rain arrived.
Salansky knew the Smokies. He’d grown up in Sevier County, graduated from Gatlinburg-Pittman High School and started his career here in between studying wildlife biology at Tennessee Tech. Returning to the park in January to serve as fire management officer had been a kind of homecoming for him, his wife and his children. He told friends he still drew on the lessons he learned here as a young ranger in everything he did.
And he knew fire. Salansky had spent 14 years as a firefighter, including four years as a hotshot facing flames in the Cherokee National Forest and on missions to massive fires in the West.
So far he’d fought 10 fires in the park with similar strategies. The plan had worked every time.
Salansky concluded the fire wasn’t big enough to justify the expense — as much as $20,000 — and he didn’t think a water drop would work anyway. The box would be enough.
He briefed the chief ranger, Steve Kloster. The plan sounded good to him.
The lines on the map didn’t match the facts on the ground. Rangers ran into steep terrain choked by brush and deadfall that threatened to turn a firebreak into a firetrap.
But the fire showed little threat of spreading so far. The forecast called for winds from the south that would push the flames in the opposite direction, toward the safety of the blue lines. And the winds would bring rain.
Salansky saw the alert. But on his return to the Chimney Tops that morning, he also saw clouds overhead and frost underfoot. He didn’t worry.
“This is a day-by-day thing,” he said later. “I’m not thinking we’re going to have an 80-mile-an-hour wind event and it’s going to blow this fire all to hell.”
Yeah right. Blue lines on a map always hold. No fire in the park’s history had broken that rule. Salansky followed the lines … to draw up a 410-acre box he calculated would contain the blaze until rain arrived.
The plan had worked every time … because blue lines on a map always hold. WTF kind of plan is that? Everything works on paper
RTS said:
“The plan had worked every time … because blue lines on a map always hold”.
Reminds me of Gary’s comment a while back regarding Arizona State Land’s unwritten, but carved in stone policy of always “fighting fire on-the-cheap”, and alluding to the fact that they have always fought fires this way, successfully, by the way, end of story, thank you very much,,….. well, I guess until YH is factored-in.
It is highly likely that if the YHF IC hadn’t declined that VLAT (the only large air tanker available, but at a substantial $$ cost), or had taken ANY other sort of positive AGGRESSIVE action in the run-up to that fatal day, 19 people would still be alive. In a way, a mind-set that is of striking similarity to the initial days of inertia on the Chimney Tops Fire, except that one being on the federal level.
State agencies are not the only one’s guilty of fighting fires on-the-cheap. The fed’s are guilty of this as-well, at least up until the point (and this can happen very quickly) that politicians and/or a lot of structures are included in the mix (with a heavy emphasis on the politicians).
Here’s the problem as I see it, on both, the state and federal levels. If either of the fire managers of the above mentioned fires had spent the money to ‘bring in a sledge hammer to swat the gnat’, nobody would have died, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, NOBODY WOULD HAVE KNOWN THOSE PEOPLE DIDN’T DIE, OR THAT IT WAS SIMPLY DUE TO THE MONEY THAT WAS SPENT ON THE ‘SLEDGE HAMMER’. The fire would have gone out, and everybody would have gone home safely. But, the bean-counters at the top would have been livid that so much dough was spent on such trivial fires, and those IC’s would have been criticized for wasting money, crying wolf, over-reacting, and all manner of other derogatory career impacting shit. When firefighters see other firefighters being chastised by the upper levels of the bureaucracy for these types of decisions, it’s the beginning of the learning process that it’s much better to go-along-to get-along, especially when dealing with bean-counters, administrators, and upper-level fire managers.
Unfortunately, just like it’s impossible to prove a negative, it’s impossible to quantify how many actual lives have been saved over the years by those fire managers who DID bring the sledge hammer to to put out that fire that was just ‘skunking-around’, only to have their careers adversely effected by those actions. I think we would all agree that ‘lives have been saved’ by some of those actions, but we will never know exactly how many, or where.
Just for the record, I always bring the sledge, always. Initial attack is where it’s at. If mgt don’t like it, they can go fuck themselves & hire somebody else. That’s how I see it & I make no apologies for it. Fire me…
And that was an excellent well-stated post! Thanks
TTWARE,
Finally getting around to replying to your post.
You are mostly correct that when firefighters see other firefighters being chastised by the upper levels of the bureaucracy for these types of decisions, it’s really the END of the true learning process. And that it’s much better to be a ‘Team Player’ and just go-along-to get-along, especially when dealing with bean-counters, administrators, upper-level fire managers, and feckless supervisors afraid to stand up for and support their employees.
Yes, it’s impossible to quantify exactly how many actual lives have been saved over the years by those fire managers who DID bring the sledge hammer to put out that fire that was just ‘skunking-around.’ Just WFs alone would number in the tens of thousands and the general public would at least number that high.
The number of fire managers that had their careers adversely affected by those actions AND for those that lost fires due to mismanagement is actually very low.
“Everything happens for a reason, but sometimes the reason is that you’re stupid and you make bad decisions.”
Blue Ridge hotshots:
Why have they not been allowed to be interviewed? What do they know that someone doesn’t want revealed?
Woodsman, That attitude has probably saved a significant, but always unknown amount of property and/or lives. To bad every one doesn’t operate with that mindset..
Yeah, and you’re correct about your assumption, I have been questioned my mgt after the fact a few times wanting justification for higher costs on some fires. I just stand my ground & tell them I base my decisions on the best info I have & worst case scenarios. A very wise manager told me years ago to base resource ordering on the actual need not the cost. It’s a balance but we have a professional responsibility to do the right thing…tabulate it later.
Being of severely limited promotability (based primarily on my affinity for telling mgt to shove-it when I think it’s necessary), I have an advantage: I don’t need to impress mgt by penny pinching as it won’t get me anywhere anyway.
The penny pinchers drive me nuts, especially when it results in abuse to resources by stretching them too thin in order to save a buck. I’ll always be a little guy at heart and in reality.
I train fngs to order what you need based upon what is & what could be, based on all available evidence. Also know & trust your people. Everyone has strengths & weaknesses. Utilize people to their strengths. Admit when you need help early & realize there is always someone better than you in anything. Think!
Hey, TTWARE, thanks for the feedback!!! I love getting this shit off my chest!
And when I tell mgt to shove it because I thinks it’s necessary, I am labeled a malcontent & serial complainer. Mgt takes it as an affront & challenge to their obvious superior intellect by a knuckle dragging low-life technician.
However, my actions & words actually endeavor to make positive change within the organization to better serve our stakeholders… and stop killing people or almost killing people. Management needs to grow some thicker skin & cease lying to themselves & the world. It’s like talking to a wall.
“Only dead fish swim with the current.”
Woodsman,
I took your sage advice and finally read the Gatlinburg Fire lawsuit, a very articulate legal argument, cogent and well written with good, informative footnotes.
It was definitely heart wrenching to read about this man and his family tragedy and ALL the blatant screw-ups of the GNP personnel. Unf**king believable, especially the one about them locking the friggin gates. I am amazed that the FMO still as a job.
It very much reads like the YH Fire, NOT the SAIR, but the YH Fire (mis)management and indecisions.
Here are a few quotes from a local Yarnell, AZ resident, and FF, that worked on the YH Fire. His quotes would apply to any one of the many WF cover-ups and whitewashes.
“For me, the worse thing about the [YH Fire] is not the tragic loss of life, … RATHER IT IS THE FACT THAT THERE HAS BEEN A COVER-UP OF THOSE RESPONSIBLE – FROM THE START OF THE FIRE RIGHT UP UNTIL FINISH. (EMPHASIS IN ORIGINAL)
“FROM THE GRAVE I hear the 19 men cry out for justice, for truth and for reform that others will not suffer their fayyte. It seems that the unjust know no shame in these matters. Woe to those leaders who hide the real facts, woe to those who seek to cover up the real truth and sidetrack those seeking it.” (EMPHASIS IN ORIGINAL)
“… Do not despise those seeking truth or justice. Cursed be those who deceive and sidetrack the efforts of honest people, to cause many to look the other way, to frustrate those making an honest attempt at correcting the mistakes of the past.”
“Those deceiving our community are contemptible, they have been partial in their presentations, in their publishing[s] and in their efforts to shape public focus and promote only sanctioned thought.”
And welcome back My Friend, I meant what I said about you being a rare breed that both refuses to give up and continues to question mgt or sell your soul or give up on your integrity. And thanks for the compliment. Keep up the good fight
Rts,
I see you are the 1st to recognize in this forum one of the 2 clues I left above. Yep……..they locked the ###$$%&ing gates…………eliminating one of, if not the only, way for citizens to escape at the height of the firestorm. Ponder THAT for a while.
Nope. Not enough. Keep pondering.
OK.
For blood pressure reasons I do not dare take a stab at the reason(s) they did that! Now my ‘rage’ thing is an exaggeration, but I hope my anger concerning the most serious state of affairs in Wildfire can be, at a minimum, understood.
Thanks for the support!
PS: one more assignment. Now read the contractor AAR provided to the city.
RTS,
Also, thank you for relay of those quotes. If a local firefighter (hell, I’ll just spell the dang word out) said that….and has that attitude, that’s encouraging. It’s hard to believe there’s not more pushback from firefighters demanding more facts & honesty to learn from.
Woodsman,
This FF goes a lot deeper on the YH Fire and the attitudes and (in)actions of those involved, especially their leaders.
“How can a community properly ‘heal’ when there are so many unanswered questions deep in their hearts? How can the community come together in unison when there are so many festering divisive issues that nobody seems, at least not in leadership positions, willing or able to resolve?”
Woodsman,
A correction is in order here …
“… continues to question mgt or sell your soul or give up on your integrity” should read.
It should read this way: … continues to question mgt and refuses to sell your soul or give up on your integrity.
No worries. Knew what you meant. Thanks!!
I haven’t been able to address this posting until now although I read it several days ago. I simply cannot wrap my head around the unimaginable horror that wife an 2 little girls must have endured. The sequence of events that occurred which led to the personal tragedy for this family & others is almost too much for me to bear. Every single wildland firefighter in the entire world needs to read & understand both the legal complaint (all of it) & the report provided to the city of Gatlinburg from the contractor. Read & comprehend every single fucking word!
Actions or inactions have consequences. Do the right thing. Study the concepts of & become a Critical Thinker. Avoid herd mentality and going with the flow. Stand up & ask questions.
Paragraph 255
Paragraph 220
Those 2 reports make me sick…………
And unfortunately, you haven’t even begun to unravel the “issues” coming to light in both the filing & the contractor provided AAR. I’m not sure I have the stomach to lay it all out for everyone here……would be extremely difficult to do without waking the rage….& I’m really trying hard to work on that.
Because RTS told me I was worth it & a rare breed that both refuses to give up or stop questioning mgt or selling my soul or giving up my integrity. If the longest serving HS crew boss of all time says that, I listen.
Disclaimer: the author of this comment may have made this up out of whole cloth in order to provide the author the perception of a wildfire VIP having his support & encouragement. It is to be considered inferred assumptions from previous comments made by RTS. Your interpretation may vary.
**
** LOGAN HOTSHOTS RETURN TO ‘ACTIVE DUTY’ STATUS
As of 48 hours ago… the Logan Hotshots have returned to ‘Active Duty’ status after almost losing three of their crew members 16 days ago at the Horse Park Fire.
But they didn’t have to travel far to go ‘back to work’.
Their first day ‘back on the job’ was 48 hours ago, on the Willow Creek Fire in the Heber-Kamas Ranger District, Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest, Utah.
The Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest is actually the ‘Home base’ for the Logan Hotshots.
The Logan Ranger District ( actual home for the Logan Hotshots ) is just another ranger district on the same national forest as where the ‘Willow Creek’ fire is burning.
From…
https://gbcc.us/gb_crew_status/public/crews.php
——————————————————————————————————–
Great Basin Crew Status
Updated: 06-13-2018 @ 17:00:50 MDT
Status was current as of the time this report was last updated
Great Basin IHC Out of Area Rotation
T-1 Crews Sorted By Crew Name
Crew Name: LOGAN
Agency ID: UT-UWF
Home Dispatch: UT-NUC
Home GACC: GBC
Incident: UT-UWF-000217
Crew Location: Willow Creek
Mob Date: 06-10-2018
First Shift: 06-11-2018
14th Day: 06-24-2018
Status: C-IN
Status Area: Local
Remarks: Willow Creek
——————————————————————————————————-
Posted June 11, 2018 on Firehouse online magazine reply to SAIT Lead “Investigator” Brad Mayhew’s article (June 1, 2018) titled: “Learning from Yarnell Hill. Brad Mayhew offers training exercises for developing yourself and your crew for the future.”
https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/article/21003253/learning-from-yarnell-hill5-years-later-firehouse-magazine-granite-mountain-hotshots
“Thank you for your insightful article Mr. Mayhew. I agree with you in part and respectfully take issue with the rest. I am a retired USFS Hot Shot Crew Superintendent with several years of experience. Over the years, besides becoming a student of Fire Weather (our first Fire Order) and Fire Behavior, I have become an avid student of fatality fire case studies. From these I do my best to draw what conclusions I can garner from the many, often ineffectual, litany of Investigations, Reviews and Learning Reviews, Facilitated Learning Analysis, Accident Prevention Analysis, and many others regarding the crucial, yet ignored, issue of human factors. Human factors, no matter what the activity or profession, either keeps you out of trouble or gets you into trouble almost every time.
I agree that we should “honor our fallen by learning from them” and it is always “a good time to ask a question: How have we learned from this accident?”
I find it discomforting that you ask “how” – and not what – we have learned from this accident.
How I have learned was from good supervisors and good mentors that required us to know, recognize, heed, and follow the proactive Basic Wildland Firefighting Rules, (i.e. the 10 Standard Fire Orders and the 18 Watch Out Situations). The Watch Out Situations are more or less guidelines whereas the Fire Orders are rules. In other words, you cannot violate the Watch Out Situations which you must mitigate in order to remain safely engaged or escape to elsewhere to safety. I also learned by passing these valuable lessons learned along to our young Hot Shots and other WFs in both formal and informal training sessions. And, of course, from practical experiences on many wildland fires. Most WFs are unaware that the term ‘Safety Zones’ had not yet been included in the Standard Fire Orders as late as April 1980 according to the “Preliminary Report of Task Force on study of Fatal / Near-Fatal Wildland Fire Accidents.”
Yes indeed, the GMHS “were hiking through an unburned box canyon when the wind shifted again.” Two flagrant items come to mind here. The fact that they were hiking through the “unburned” AND a “box canyon” at that time of day and under those readily observable adverse weather and aggressive fire behavior conditions was totally contrary to our WF training. And that is not “hindsight bias.” From the SAIT report, you will also infer that they had no lookout while they were doing this, and that they did not tell Air Attack or anyone else they were leaving their Safety Zone (S/Z).
From their Lunch Spot/ S/Z they had the best vantage point of the fire, save Air Attack. They well knew what was happening before they made the decision to leave. The WFSTAR NWCG image titled “Only Minutes – Blowup to Burnover” indicates that the Yarnell Hill Fire time was only “52 minutes.”
The “4:30 p.m., thunderstorm outflows reached the southern perimeter of the fire” and did indeed drive “the fire directly south.” And yes, “the fire overran the Granite Mountain IHC at about 4:42 p.m.” in an unburned, lethal bowl near the Boulder Springs Ranch. Chimney, chutes, and especially bowls are specifically mentioned in WF as being deadly based on historic fire fatalities.
Yes indeed, “the crew left the road (upper right) and hiked down into an unburned box canyon, taking the most direct route to a ranch.” Yes, this BSR was considered “as a safety zone (left), on the edge of town.” However, you failed to mention a key point, that they were already in a good S/Z in the ‘good black.’
Correct again, “part of the crew’s story was lost with them, even to those of us who served on the Investigation Team.” You state: “We may speculate, but we do not know for certain how they decided to leave the black and hike through the box canyon.” On the contrary, we do know how they made that decision.
Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini recounted in an AZ Republic article (“New account of hotshot deaths in Yarnell fire” – April 5, 2015) discussing conversations between PFD Wildland Battalion Chief Darrel Willis and GMHS survivor Brenan McDonough. Paladini is quoted as saying: “My understanding of the argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed … was that Steed did not want to go down.” Even though there were no “official” recordings of this, there were many other WFs that heard these radio transmissions over the discreet GMHS Crew Net channel. The Division Supervisor of that operational area was Marsh and the Acting Superintendent in charge of the GMHS was Steed.
We refer to it as the highly abridged and redacted “discussing our options” video, available on YouTube. The Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT), of which you were the lead Human Factors Investigator, had the original full-length recordings of this entire GMHS Crew Net entire discussion.
I agree that the crew’s earlier decisions are clear, and we can make sense of them in hindsight. We definitely know there is in fact, “more to their story, but we don’t know what it is,” yet. This level of uncertainty certainly is unusual in wildland fire accidents because all the men, except one, died that day.
Please read the Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation Report (2013) or the Yarnell Hill Fire Case Study (2014) and look for the Human Factors section of the report. There isn’t one. There is only a “recommendation” on page 44: “The Team recommends that the State of Arizona request the NWCG [National Wildfire Coordinating Group] and/or Fire Leadership Council (WFLC) to charter a team of interagency wildland fire and human factors experts to conduct further analysis of this event and the wildland fire communications environment.”
To the best of my knowledge, no such “team of … experts” has ever been chartered.
In the fire service, we do learn from our accidents when we are told what and why the accidents and fatalities happened. Throughout our history, I will agree that we have gotten better at fighting fire, however, it depends on the actual units and their supervisors whether or not we’ve gotten better at learning. I am in the group of many that strongly believe we have not learned enough from this epic multiple fatality event.
I believe that one of the key “reasons we don’t fully understand the events of June 30, 2013” is because the SAIT concluded: “… the [SAIT] found no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.” Really? Framing that into a more positive assertion, those men did everything right – yet 19 men burned to death in one fell swoop. How is that possible when the SAIT basically concluded that the GMHS performed their inherently dangerous job according to “policy” and “protocol? You are absolutely correct that “it can be hard to see what the lessons are, and how to improve for the future” when dubious conclusions like that are made.
You stated “If our learning has stalled for this event, we should try a different approach. But how can we learn for the future when there are gaps in our knowledge of the past” Good question. We can truly “learn for the future” when we close or fill those “gaps in our knowledge of the past” with forthright, straightforward conclusions about why these tragedies occur instead of their “story,” where nobody did anything wrong and nobody is to blame. Realistically, when WFs die on fires, it is almost always because someone made bad decisions. Beware the training instructors that begin WF training sessions with “There are no wrong answers.”
I have thought about what it may have been like if I was with the Crew, hiking through the canyon. And with this in mind, I ask and then immediately tell myself: What the heck are we doing in here because this path is not right and it certainly does not feel right based on our WF training, and case studies of past fatality fires in similar conditions. And it is the worst possible time to be making these decisions and taking these actions.
Comparing notes with other WFs does not surprise me at all what they come up with. For the most part, we come to the very same conclusion(s) – bad decisions that contradict all we know about decision-making and the human factors that influenced all of the many wildland fire fatality case studies where WFs are killed by fire.
On the contrary, we know almost exactly how they chose their path. I cannot see myself or others that I have supervised and trained over the years, on a similar path, because we learned the valuable human factors lessons of the many historic fatality fires. As WFs, the best way to “learn for the future” and honor the fallen is to respect the past, provide sound leadership, and learn and follow the proper, aggressively safe way to fight fires based on the tried-and-true WF Rules.
Realizing that our ultimate responsibility as WF Supervisors is the safety and welfare of those we supervise, that is the most meaningful and redeeming “memorial we can build for the future.”
Author John Maclean and Holly Neill were the keynote speakers at the Southern California Foresters and Fire Wardens (SCFFW) conference in May (Yarnell Hill 5 Years Later). We were prewarned by the SCFFW Directors that none of us was allowed to interrupt or ask questions during their planned two-hour presentation; and that we could ask our questions later that evening at the planned mixer. Their presentation was unexpectedly cut short a little over an hour on this very issue, when someone persuasively disagreed with their “facts” regarding “the communications on the Yarnell Hill fire on June 30, most notably the communications that occurred during the SAIR’s ‘gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC, from 1604 until 1637.’”
Several WFs in the group were overheard saying “It’s about time.” I later thanked the gentleman for mustering the courage to do speak up and challenge Maclean and Neill. He thanked me and told me that he had waited for that moment for almost five years.”
RTS,
Nice job on the comment posted to the recent article in the municipal firefighter publication known as Firehouse magazine.
Good comment(s) back to SAIT lead investigator Brad Mayhew regarding his recent ‘new’ article about the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire… but the last part is confusing.
You are obviously throwing some heavy ‘shade’ yourself in author John Maclean’s direction.
You are now CONFIRMING what happened at that convention ( as first reported by Joy Collura, who was also in the same room )… but are you saying you totally AGREE with Brad Mayhew ignoring all instructions to NOT interrupt the presentation… and that you AGREE it was “about time” someone did?
Exactly what are you ‘disagreeing’ with in regards to what John Maclean is saying in his ‘presentations’?
Are you trying to ‘side’ with SAIT investigator Brad Mayhew and say that the SAIR was ‘accurate’ when it reported that 33 minute ‘gap’ between 1604 and 1637?
I would find that hard to believe, given what I ( and the rest of us here, anyway ) KNOW that you KNOW about all the evidence that has emerged following the SAIR… but you tell me.
What is YOUR ‘beef’ with author John Maclean, at this point?
Unfortunately, they physically observed the fire front WAAAY TOO LATE in the game when it was intensely upon them because they failed to follow the “L” and “C” prongs of LCES. And they turned the “E” prong on its head by perverting the meaning of Escape Route to mean FROM an already safe area in the perfectly good black.
The conventional definition of an Escape Route is from an area of danger TO a safer area. Let’s just say, that they hiked down into a wall of fire they had not seen (no Lookout) and when they arrived, they certainly didn’t expect THAT much fire to be there.
A red flag for months and years before this event. Just go back and read the public record of the GMHS Squad Boss Interview and the leadership example from the 2012 “Nevada” [Holloway] Fire in northern NV and Southern OR.
The 4-5 GMHS candidates all said basically the same thing. They had no lookout, the fire kinda snuck up on them, they had to quickly fire out around themselves, and everything turned out alright.
Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes.
WTKTT,
Yes, I am CONFIRMING what happened at the SCFFW Conference ( as first reported by Joy Collura, who was also in the same room ) because I was there as well. I don’t know about me “obviously throwing some heavy ‘shade’ … in author John Maclean’s direction.”
It was my first time posting for Firehouse, so I was unsure if our posts had to sit “in moderation” for a while like Gabbert’s Wildfire Today, so I was guarded how I worded it. As it turned out, my post showed up immediately.
And it was okay with me that Brad Mayhew ignored all instructions to NOT interrupt the presentation. The two of us (unbeknown to each other) were personally warned(separately) by one of the SCFFW Directors to “not engage” them during their presentation. I asked what about the open forum and discussions and lessons learned they promoted. His response was a rather curt, “It ain’t gonna happen here.”
I absolutely AGREE that it was “about time” someone did this, even if the entire “communication gap” is totally false, fabricated by the SAIT to fit their “conclusion first, then the facts” narrative.
The SAIT-SAIR states: “that there is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the [GMHS]” So then, I was agreeing with Mayhew on the “33 minutes” issue and ‘disagreeing’ with what John Maclean and Holly Neill were saying in their presentation. Maclean and Neill were saying “33 minutes” and Mayhew was saying “30 minutes.” This was what Mayhew was trying to correct – the actual time and the wording, and of course, his reputation as the YH Fire SAIT Lead Human Factors Investigator and surely for future lucrative Investigator, Reviewer, FLA’er, or whatever gigs.
I was in no way trying to ‘side’ with SAIT Investigator Brad Mayhew and say that the SAIR was ‘accurate’ when it falsely reported that there was a 33 minute ‘gap’ between 1604 and 1637. Even though we all know the whole “gap in communication” assertion is pure bovine feculence, I was siding with Mayhew attempting to correct what was actually – NOT FACTUALLY – printed in the SAIT-SAIR.
And remember, we were warned not to interrupt or ask questions, so I had to refrain from calling BS on the entire matter in a public fashion as Mayhew did. Like everyone else, I was foreclosed from chiming in and countering the both of them on the BS on the whole thing. Besides, Mr. Mayhew was doing a fine job stirring it up.
My ‘beef’ with author John Maclean, at this point, is that he and Holly Neill had been given a more than exclusive forum to a captive “not allowed to ask questions” audience and openly spew their Yarnell Hill 5 Years later “story” without allowing anyone to PUBLICLY ask questions, interact, engage, dialogue, or anything else. Moreover, they are always trying to get others to “come on over to our side … get off Investigative Media because it is ruining you and your reputation …”
Later on, the whole lot of them – Maclean, Neill, Mayhew, and several of the Directors were all sitting around chatting and buddy-buddy, like nothing had happened, almost like the whole thing was scripted.
I’m relieved that you and others would find what you THOUGHT I meant hard to believe, given what you all KNOW that I KNOW about all the evidence that has emerged following the SAIT. So then, I told you. Thanks for kinda challenging me and keeping me on my toes. You’re welcome.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
June 13, 2018 at 8:15 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The SAIT-SAIR states: “that there is a gap of
>> over 30 minutes in the information available
>> for the [GMHS]” So then, I was agreeing with
>> Mayhew on the “33 minutes” issue and ‘disagreeing’
>> with what John Maclean and Holly Neill were saying
>> in their presentation. Maclean and Neill were
>> saying “33 minutes” and Mayhew was saying “30 minutes.”
>> This was what Mayhew was trying to correct – the actual
>> time and the wording
( FACEPALM )
You are TOTALLY kidding me, right?
Seriously… ( and with all due respect )… Category 5 ‘chain yank’ here, right?
You are now trying to say that the only reason Brad Mayhew disregarded all instructions to NOT ‘interrupt’ a prepared presentation by one of the lead speakers at a famous Wildland Safety Conference is because he wanted to argue about whether his precious little SAIR document ever said ’33’ minutes versus ’30’ minutes?
And that he had been waiting for FIVE YEARS just to argue about some typed reference to ‘3 minutes’?
That has GOT to be complete and total horseshit.
Fer chrissakes… the original SAIR DOES say the gap was 33 minutes.
Here is the ACTUAL ( written/printed/published ) line in the ‘Executive Summary’ section of the original Arizona Forestry contracted “Special Accident Investigation” report, published on September 28, 2013…
“There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC. From 1604 until 1637”
Key phrase(s):
1. “gap of OVER 30 minutes”
2. “FROM 1604 to 1637″
37 minus 4 is 33.
I checked it with a calculator… just to be SURE.
Why the hell the person who wrote that line for the SAIR ( Brad Mayhew himself? ) didn’t just “do the math” and write “There is gap of 33 minutes” in the first place is beyond understanding.
From what Joy Collura originally reported about this ‘interrupt Maclean’ moment at that recent Wildland Fire Safety Conference… my take on that bullshit that Brad Mayhew was slinging seemed to be that he was now trying to ( finally ) ‘cash in’ on that “oh-so-clever” and “get-out-of-lying-free” verbiage he made sure was used in the original SAIR document.
The same “oh-so-clever” and “get-out-of-lying-free” shit that I originally posted about WAY back in 2013, shortly after the SAIR document was published.
From Chapter ONE ( Yes, the very FIRST chapter ) of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-4226
NOTE: This post was made just weeks after the SAIR was published… and long BEFORE any of the ‘hard evidence’ began to emerge ( the recordings they always had in their possession ) that the SAIT had, in fact, chosen to just ignore ( easily ) verifiable communications between 1604 and 1637.
I was pointing out that even just the ‘words’ they chose to use in the SAIR itself seemed to indicate they were, in fact, ‘hiding things’…
———————————————————————————
On November 18, 2013 at 5:06 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth posted…
** ALMOST no information?
Did anyone catch this in the SAIR… right up front… on Page 1…
“There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC. From 1604 until 1637, the Team cannot verify communications from the crew, and we have almost no direct information for them.”
ALMOST no direct information?
What does THAT mean?
Is there really a ‘gap of over 30 minutes in the information available’… and they have NO ‘direct information’… or not?
The second sentence contradicts the first one and the claim being made which is now often repeated as the cause of the incident itself.
So why would they say…
“We have ALMOST no direct information”
when they just got finished saying
“We have NO direct information.”
Very strange ( and very confusing ).
————————————————————————————
And again… WAY back in Chapter 3 ( still in 2013 )…
This exchange also took place well before there was the ‘hard’ evidence ( the recordings themselves ) showing that the original SAIT did, in fact, IGNORE/HIDE evidence.
At that point in time I was simply pointing out how they thought they were being ‘oh-so-clever’ and playing ‘word games’ in the SAIR in order to establish a “get-out-of-lying-free” card for themselves if/when any of the evidence they KNEW they were ‘hiding’ ever saw the light of day ( as it eventually DID )…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/chapter-iii-for-comments/#comment-6680
———————————————————————————-
On December 26, 2013 at 10:07 am,
Robert the Second ( RTS ) posted…
And regarding the “‘total fiction’ in the SAIR” comment, just go back to my former comments regarding the SAIT process of “establishing a conclusion FIRST and THEN finding the “FACTS” to fit the predetermined, foregone conclusion. This includes selective interviews and the like as well. If it matches the “storyline” then they’ll use it and if not it’s not included.
On December 26, 2013 at 1:58 pm,
WantsToKnowTheTruth replied ( to RTS )…
Yep. There is also the carefully crafted ‘semantics’ issue that we see throughout the SAIR in order to ‘justify the story’.
Example: They carefully insert ‘modifiers’ like ‘verify’ and ‘almost’ in their claim of ‘blackout period of over 30 minutes’.
Page 1 of the SAIR says…
“There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC. From 1604 until 1637, the Team cannot VERIFY communications from the crew, and we have ALMOST no direct information for them.”
So the impression they want to make ( and which was fully adopted my the MainStream Media )… is that absolutely NOTHING was heard to/from GM between the Wade Parker 1604 text message and Marsh’s “That’s where we want retardant” unsolicited transmission at 1637, 2 minutes before the first MAYDAY from Steed.
** Cannot VERIFY communications?
That doesn’t mean they didn’t have them, or evidence of them. That semantic just means they set some criteria of the their own for considering including them in ‘the story’ ( narrative ).
Maybe they were using the ‘more than one source’ criteria and threw out anything that someone else didn’t hear, too.
They may have put McDonough himself in this category.
He MAY have actually told them some other things he heard during the ‘discussing their options’ intra-crew chat, but if McDonough was totally alone at the time ( just sitting in the GM Supervisor truck ) when he heard those things, and no one else is alive to ‘verify’ hearing the same thing(s)… maybe they threw those things into their ‘cannot VERIFY’ category no matter how pertinent they might have been.
** ALMOST no direct information?
Again… what the heck does THAT mean?
Having ALMOST no direct information is most certainly NOT the same as just saying “We have no direct information”.
It means they probably DO have some ( direct information )… but they ALSO have some criteria set of their own that is allowing them to ‘exclude’ what they have.
There is also the curious ‘direct’ semantic.
Do they have ‘indirect’ information?
What was their criteria for ‘direct’ versus ‘indirect’ information?
Having “ALMOST no information” is right up there with instead of Darrell Willis saying “I was not involved with what they (GM) were doing”… he played the semantic game himself and said…
“I was not REALLY involved with what they were doing”.
It’s called ‘wiggle room’.
———————————————————————————–
So even now… 5 years later… this seems to be the “get-out-of-lying-free” card that SAIT investigator Brad Mayhew is trying to ‘play’.
Those “oh-so-clever” word games in the original SAIR.
WTKTT,
That was my take on the whole affair. He didn’t go into any details.
That the only reason Brad Mayhew disregarded all instructions to NOT ‘interrupt’ a prepared presentation by one of the lead speakers at a famous Wildland Safety Conference is that he wanted to argue about whether his precious little SAIR document ever said ’33’ minutes versus ’30’ minutes.
He said that he had been waiting for FIVE YEARS and he didn’t go into detail on whether or not it was to just argue about some typed reference to ‘3 minutes.’
You can call it complete and total horseshit if you want to.
Mayhew made it very clear to me and others, that the ONLY thing that we had in common was our interest in human factors.
He definitely spent no time schmoozing with me like he did with Maclean and Neill.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on June 14, 2018 at 8:24 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> That was my take on the whole affair.
>> He didn’t go into any details.
Okay. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You can call it complete and total horseshit if you want to.
Copy that.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Mayhew made it very clear to me and others, that
>> the ONLY thing that we had in common was our
>> interest in human factors.
>>
>> He definitely spent no time schmoozing with me
>> like he did with Maclean and Neill.
All ‘schmoozing’ aside… I think John Maclean actually MISSED a great opportunity at that recent Wildland Fire Safety conference.
He should have been a little ‘faster on his feet’.
The MOMENT this former SAIT lead investigator ‘interrupted’ Maclean’s presentation and tried to say that the SAIR never said there was a ‘communications gap’… Maclean should have ‘pivoted’ and said ( to the audience )…
“Ladies and Gentlemen… we’re going to depart from the planned presentation at this time because we have a VERY special ‘suprise guest’ with us. We are going to allow him to come on stage and tell us, once for all, exactly WHY the Yarnell SAIT chose to IGNORE a lot of the evidence that we now KNOW they always had in their possession. Please give a round of applause and welcome to the stage… one of the SAIT’s own lead investigators… Mr. Brad Mayhew.!!!”
( Audience applauds and Brad Mayhew gets up on the stage to talk about WHY the SAIT seemed unable to ‘verify communications’ between 1604 and 1637 ).
It’s really too bad that didn’t happen.
A real ‘missed opportunity’ there.
By the way… Joy Collura was taking really good notes that day ( as she usually does ), at that conference… and she has already posted about exactly what SHE heard during Maclean’s presentation.
The following is a ‘summary’ of her previous postings, and the ‘event’ in question.
You were not only ‘in the same room’… you were ( reportedly ) sitting right next to her.
So let me know if you disagree with the following ‘account’ of what happened and what Brad Mayhew ACTUALLY SAID that day to author John Maclean and that roomful of people…
SCAFFW
Southern California Association of Foresters and Fire Wardens.
Founded in 1929.
The 88th annual Wildland Fire Training and Safety Conference.
May 3rd and 4th, 2018
Thursday, May 3, 2018
——————————————————————-
09:00 AM – Opening of the 88th annual SCAFFW conference.
09:30 AM – Keynote address.
10:00 AM – Break.
10:15 AM – Presentation: The Thomas Fire – Initial Attack.
11:00 AM – Presentation: LA Fire – Creek Incident Explosion.
11:45 AM – Introduction of Vendors and Exhibitors.
12:00 PM – Lunch.
01:00 PM – California Highway Patrol – Safety Message.
01:15 PM – Presentation: Montecito Mudslide Incident.
01:46 PM – Conference break ( Vendors, Exhibits & Demonstrations Break Out )
02:00 PM – Conference videographer was asked to now stop recording the conference presentations because the upcoming 2:30 to 4:30 PM presenters ( author John Maclean and former firefighter Holly Neill ) had decided they did NOT want their presentation recorded. At this same time, the audience was asked to NOT interrupt the upcoming presentation or try to engage in any dialog with Maclean or Neill WHILE they were delivering their presentation. All comments and/or questions were to be saved for AFTER the presentation during the built-in informal ‘social’ gatherings.
02:30 PM – John Maclean and Holly Neill began their scheduled 2 hour presentation entitled “Yarnell Hill – 5 Years Later”.
52.75 minutes later ( right around 3:23 PM ) John Maclean is at the point in his presentation where he says…
“You take those 2 reports – they will tell you these guys *did not* communicate…”
Then… someone ‘swiftly’ moves into ( and down ) the center aisle from the back of the room all the way down to the stage where Maclean and Neill are and ( in a ‘passionate’, ‘resolute’ and ‘corrective’ tone of voice ) INTERRUPTS their presentation, even after being told NOT to do any such thing before it even began.
This ‘someone’ turns out to be none other than Brad Mayhew, one of the lead investigators for the original Arizona Forestry sub contracted ‘Special Accident’ Investigation” into the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
Brad Mayhew then says ( directly to John Maclean on the stage )…
“That’s not true, man. ( pause )
You know what? ( pause )
I was on that investigation team. In fact, I was a lead investigator.
That’s not what our report says.
I don’t appreciate it.”
At this point… both John Maclean and Holly Neill realize their presentation has just been derailed by this apparently ‘unknown to them’ individual ( since the next question proves they didn’t even know which ‘report’ this person was referring to )… so they now ‘engage’ with him and ask him…
What report?”
Brad Mayhew replies…
“Serious Accident Investigation Report.”
And then Mayhew continues with his ‘interruption’ and ‘protest’…
“It does not say there’s a communication gap.
That is not true what you said.
The text *does not* say that.
The body of the report gives several examples of communication which were difficult to verify – the executive summary said we could not verify them. Your 33 minute gap is *not true*. I’m open to saying that we need to add to this story… that we need to do better. I am open. I agree with that. And there are passages in there that say exactly that. I don’t appreciate your misleading this room about the content of that report. It’s not right and it’s not fair.”
Brad Mayhew’s ‘interruption’ went on for 1 minute and 8 seconds until the conference ‘facilitator’ ( Tony Caezza ) steps in and tells Mayhew to please stop and if he has anything to talk with author John Maclean about… to do it AFTER the presentation like he was told to do before it began.
Brad Mayhew responds with “Yes, sir” ( to the facilitator ), but before returning to his place at the back of the room Mayhew gets one more verbal shot off at Maclean and Neill and says ( to them )…
“You’re both better than that”.
John Maclean resumes his presentation… but only speaks for another 1 minute and 26 seconds following Yarnell SAIT investigator Brad Mayhew’s ‘interruption’ and then abruptly ‘stops’ his presentation well before the end of the scheduled 2 hour time slot.
4:30 PM – Networking Social
6:00 PM – Dinner
7:00 PM – Entertainment
—————————————————————
Notice above that Brad Mayhew was NOT ( as YOU seem to be reporting ) just trying to disagree with the number 30 versus the number 33.
What he REALLY ‘seemed’ to be doing was trying to play that exact “get-out-of-lying-free” card I talked about back in 2013… and reposted about up above.
He was trying to focus on the “oh-so-clever” word games that were being played in the text of the original SAIR.
Again… since that was the case… John Maclean should have invited him up on the stage to explain WHY so many radio exchanges that we now KNOW the SAIT always had evidence of in their possession were deemed to be ‘not verifiable’… when the later release of the recordings showed how absolutely EASY it WAS to ‘verify’ a lot of them.
Maclean SHOULD have asked Mayhew ( publicly )…
“What did YOU and the other SAIT people even DO to TRY and ‘verify’ any of these now-known-to-exist ‘communications with Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain? Anything at all?”
Followup…
It really would have been fascinating ( and still would be, at some future date ) to have SAIT investigator Brad Mayhew ‘on stage’ and finally explaining WHY the SAIT seemed ‘unable to verify’ all these now-known-to-exist radio communications with both Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain in those 33 minutes between 1604 and 1637.
I would be particularly interested in what their ‘criteria’ was to consider evidence of a ‘communication’ to be ‘verified’… or not… especially since the actual reported ‘communication’ that they, themselves used to END the 33 minute ‘gap’ ( at 1637 ) itself REMAINS ( essentially ) an ‘unverified’ communication.
I’m talking, of course, about this infamous ‘reported communication’ in the SAIR itself…
SAIR – PDF page 33
——————————————————————
At 1637, ASM2 flies a drop path for a VLAT north of Yarnell west to east and apparently over DIVS A, turning northward to avoid high ground at the end of Yarnell. DIVS A, seeing the flight, calls and calmly says, “( ASM2 ) Division Alpha, That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant.”
————————————————————–
That is, in fact, the ‘reported communication’ that the SAIT felt was ‘verified’ enough to be the END of the 33 minute ‘no verifiable communications’ gap between 1604 and 1637.
But after all the investigations were finished ( both SAIT and ADOSH )… only ONE PERSON ( John Burfiend ) apparently ever reported hearing that ‘radio communication’.
That radio communication supposedly took place over the VERY ‘popular’ Air-To-Ground radio channel. Just about EVERYONE ( DPS and other Law Enforcement included ) ‘listens in’ on that radio channel because that’s where a lot of the ‘action’ is on a Wildfire.
But after dozens and dozens of interviews with people who were THERE that day ( and listening to the A2G channel )… that particular transmission still ended up only being ‘reported’ by ONE person ( John Burfiend ).
SIDENOTE: Even with Burfiend supposedly being the ONLY one to hear this critical radio call… the ADOSH investigators were NEVER allowed to interview USFS employee John Burfiend.
But the SAIT then took THAT one, single report of a radio transmission and called it a ‘verified transmission’… enough to END the 1604 to 1637 ‘gap’ in ‘verifiable transmissions’?
Does that means the SAIT’s own ‘criteria’ for ‘verifying transmissions’ really was simply whether ANYONE on the fire ( even just ONE person ) simply says they heard it?
If THAT was the case… then what about all those other reports ( sometimes with MORE than one person ) of people ‘hearing things’ on the radio which never got mentioned in the SAIR?
What was so ‘unverifiable’ about THOSE reports?
And don’t even get me started on the 4:27 PM Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble recording of Eric Marsh reporting ( to someone ) “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.
Anyone who ever knew Eric Marsh KNEW that was his voice… and that he was TELLING SOMEONE ( WHO? ) that Granite Mountain was most certainly NOT ‘in the black’ at the ‘anchor point’ anymore and they were now TRAVELING and “…coming FROM the heel of the fire”.
Hell… I never met the man… but after just listening to him talk for 2 minutes in that GMIHS YouTube training video… I easily knew for sure that was him the very first time I ever listened to the 4:27 PM Yarnell-Gamble video.
So what was ‘unverifiable’ about THAT transmission?
Would still love to hear the answer(s).
Control the language control the narrative.
Reply to Woodsman post on
June 14, 2018 at 5:57 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Control the language control the narrative.
Yep.
Add a few well-placed “ALMOST no information”s and “team cannot VERIFY”s ( without even bothering to explain what, if anything, was ever DONE to even TRY and ‘Verify’ anything ) and you are ‘good to go’…
…even 5 ( 10?, 15? ) years later… when you need to ‘interrupt’ someone trying to give a presentation.
“Oh-so-clever”.
I also wonder about this head-scratching statement that came out of SAIT investigator Brad Mayhew’s mouth when he was ‘interrupting’ author John Maclean’s presentation…
“The body of the report gives several examples of communication which were difficult to verify.”
Really, Brad?
WHERE?
I just re-read the entire SAIR and I have no idea what he even thinks he is referring to there.
The ONLY places in the entire SAIR where the word ‘verify’ is ever used is in association with the ’33 minute gap’ statements, and 1 more time on PDF page 86 when they said they used satellite-based heat imagery to help ‘verify’ fire locations at various times.
That’s it.
Absolutely nothing about any specific ‘communications’ that were ‘hard to verify’.
And the wheels on the bus go round and round…
politically part was not aimed at IM participants but the politicians who I know are currently reading IM, Woodsman
if that helps you get where I was on that
plus since 2015 if you see me talk about my hair which is now fixed than it is me—otherwise who knows back channel who I am ghost writing for….
things have really shifted and are moving back channel and pretty flowery too—
the budding happened awhile back- the blooms will be enjoyable as time nears and the world can see the bouquet like I said in His time.
no book. no movie. Just truth in His way and His time….
Let us go back historically in time on topic of burn operations may it be known prescribed burns or not…
STATE vs FEDERAL or on peoples’ own lands:
“There’s an interesting court case from 2000 that’s actually tiled the ‘Backfire 2000’ case from the Sula Complex in Bitterroot Valley, MT. It deals more with the Federal Govt. and the ‘discretionary function’ doctrine. Once you read it, you’ll find that the Govt. attorneys basically emasculated the Fire Orders and declared them as guidelines. So, it’s clear to me that the YHF SAIT followed the same logic.”
http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/textdocuments/Backfire-2000-ruling-memo.pdf
https://missoulian.com/news/local/montana-supreme-court-upholds-k-judgment-for-botched-burnout/article_71391ebe-15d8-11e3-a687-0019bb2963f4.html
ONLY on FEDERAL land and ONLY on wildfires…as you see state was upheld on their botched job performance
——————–
Some of you are in the industry and are here learning about YHF
I have data I have stated over time where to look for yourself
I still stand the only one who asked for the records on many entities and areas…
except recently one person is now stepping in and inquiring but that took awhile to see addendum or added names…
because I have circled those topics awhile now…
Most words I mutter or ramble if they talk about me and my life—that is ME
but again and again the rest who knows who is asking me to ghost write their inquiries
but I will say this Woodsman more men and women are not engaging on here because they know trackers can be used and know everyone of us on IM—it has happened to many of us from someone who use to post on here….
so we lose alot of participants but many readerships and for this time of year it is not too bad
xxfullsailxx use to bust on WTKTT and what aka AI stated was classic:
I am not the ‘lead investigator’ on anything.
I am someone posting to a public forum,
just as you are doing.
If the host/moderator of this forum allows
a comment to appear ( from anyone ) and
it’s OK with him… then it’s OK with me.
We are all just ‘guests’ here… and I’d like
to thank Mr. Dougherty once more for
his patience with all of us. It’s extraordinary.
Carry on.
That is what the readers do not comprehend- they just read and orchestrate and I know it happens locally because I never said the men murdered the men yet locals said the rumor is flying and I can guess where it cores from…
We are all just guests here even the ghost writer times of Joy—
There is one thing I know about my fire path and its chapters—my hubs are LOCKED and HEADING in the right direction AHEAD of TIME !!!
There will not be a chance for me to get caught up in any type of burnout operation in my living life of gathering fire data because I know the rules and what is flowing and my terrain and the planning and logistics of all…
even in areas new or foreign I hand it up to Him…
I can tell you from YHF I found a person that as I share data this person will never have to give me any type of courtesy credit but I remain in it for all affected…Redundant I am over time…yet I will be at some events so I am closing off my interaction online and will return to IM 7-7-18—God willing….so have a nice Happy Father’s Day to the Dads and Happy Fourth of July…Happy Birthdays (that is me and as well Carl’s son Clayton—hi Carl— ( ( ( hugs ) ) ) and In Remembrance to the 19 almost 5 years later and all fallen…
I hope to see you all at the bbq 🙂
Woodsman says
I’m telling you, man. The videos posted initially by the FD is a ground ignition gone tits up.
and is joined by RTS who said
I totally agree that the posted HFD Facebook videos definitely reveal a firing operation gone bad. It just too symmetrically even to be otherwise. I do my best to give Jumpers the benefit of the doubt because there are some darn good ones. I too was very apprehensive when they were NOT mentioned in the 72-hour report.
It sure seems a bit shady there.
————————
my reply:
—sounds like we are talking about ignition events, burn outs, and burn baby burn on a small local scale—
Where are the videos to show where the symmetrically evenness? Is this a perspective from farther away?
Woodsman, How did you determine that they were burn outs?
is it now politically correct to talk about burn outs now?
How big was the fire when each entity began their own fires?
How much of a burn out would have been necessary?
what I must assume must have been a relatively small acreage fire.
How big was the fire when each entity began burnouts? I have no idea.
How much burnout would be necessary? As much as it takes to secure the control line. I strenuously recommend in the strongest terms possible that ALL forces employed on the the fire line understand what’s taking place at all times. You know: reading from the same sheet of music? Same page? Etc.
I’ve already told everyone ad nauseum how it’s wrong, stupid, and irresponsible for fire managers to simply draw a huge box when a wildfire occurs as an excuse to burn huge acreage in order to “reintroduce fire to the landscape” as much as possible. That strategy will bite you in the ass more often than not. Ask the good people of Gatlinburg, TN. Do I need to hire a marketing company & start posting billboards across the country or something? I can’t explain what should be easily understood if people refuse to see.
After I present my opinions & suggestions for improvement, I’ve done my duty & it’s out of my hands henceforth.
Where are the videos? Read the thread. They were clearly posted by the local fire department.
How did I determine they were footage of ground ignition? Experience & knowing what it looks like. I can expand here but both myself and RTS have given opinions on that. Wildfires burn a certain way based on many factors. Strung fire by driptorch burn certain ways also until other influences take over. That was a ground ignition. You have to know what it looks like.
What does political correctness have to do with any of this?
If you can clarify your questions maybe RTS, myself & others may be able to help but drop the political correct stuff as it has nothing to do with it. And just so you are aware, I’m in the camp (of possibly one) that believes it’s highly possible that GM finding themselves “in front of the flaming front” was caused by ground ignitions they weren’t privy to. Capiche?
When was it not OK to talk about burnouts?
There has never been any solid evidence that GMIHS was in front of an ignition.. The “lunch spot” photos definitely show an organized flame front that GMIHS went down in front of (regardless of how it was created). They saw the fire before they tried to outrun it…
There has never been any solid evidence that GMIHS was in front of an ignition.. The “lunch spot” photos definitely show an organized flame front that GMIHS went down in front of (regardless of how it was created). They saw the fire before they tried to outrun it…
Do you have a question or are you sure of a belief absent published evidence to the contrary. Have you ever believed something only to find out later is wasn’t true? Is it possible something happened that was never shown; ie;: with evidence known? Are all your beliefs formulated solely on public evidence? Is it possible something(s) happened you don’t know about. If you aren’t aware of it, can it be possible that it’s true?
These are honest questions.
Woodsman and Rock Steady,
.
You and I and several others are in the camp right along with you, that believe it’s very highly likely that GM found themselves “in front of the flaming front” caused by ground ignitions that they were not privy to and completely unaware of because they failed to properly post a Lookout before they left their perfectly good black.
And that blunder is totally contrary to basic WF Rules and to what the PFD WBC, their supervisor, stated at the July 2013 YH Fire Fatality Site New Conference. Based on public records confidently stated that they had LCES but they could not always follow those rules when they were on the move and they certainly couldn’t leave a lookout behind.
Really? And why not?
What would you expect from someone whose esteemed GMHS WFs, based on public records, considered Fire Order #10 (Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first) to be “old and Hillbilly” and they considered themselves “smarter than that, much smarter.”
They physically observed the fire front, regardless of how it came to be and went into a box canyon…
Ummmm red flag
Yes, I understand that. That’s a huge no no. But what did they see and why was it there? Get past the no no. If you can’t move beyond that in your cranium then, I’m sorry, I can’t help you.
Rocksteady.
I posted this in the wrong spot above so reposting
Unfortunately, they physically observed the fire front WAAAY TOO LATE in the game when it was intensely upon them because they failed to follow the “L” and “C” prongs of LCES. And they turned the “E” prong on its head by perverting the meaning of Escape Route to mean FROM an already safe area in the perfectly good black.
The conventional definition of an Escape Route is from an area of danger TO a safer area. Let’s just say, that they hiked down into a wall of fire they had not seen (no Lookout) and when they arrived, they certainly didn’t expect THAT much fire to be there.
A red flag for months and years before this event. Just go back and read the public record of the GMHS Squad Boss Interview and the leadership example from the 2012 “Nevada” [Holloway] Fire in northern NV and Southern OR.
The 4-5 GMHS candidates all said basically the same thing. They had no lookout, the fire kinda snuck up on them, they had to quickly fire out around themselves, and everything turned out alright.
Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes.
RTS, so am I reading this right that you are hinting that AFTER the GMHS saw the fire from their lunch spot and started heading down into the box canyon towards BSR that an ignition operation occurred between them and the front they saw from the lunch spot??
**
** SAIT INVESTIGATOR BRAD MAYHEW PUBLISHES NEW ARTICLE
** ABOUT THE 2013 YARNELL HILL FIRE
Another Yarnell Hill Fire anniversary is coming up, and there is already the usual ‘flurry’ of articles appearing.
This year.. Brad Mayhew has chosen to chime in.
Brad Mayhew was one of the lead investigators for the original Arizona Forestry contracted “Special Accident Investigation” of the 2013 Yarnell Hill tragedy.
This is the same Brad Mayhew who got up at that Wildland Fire Safety Conference in California a few weeks ago and ‘interrupted’ author John Maclean when Maclean was making HIS presentation about the Yarnell Hill Fire ( even though Mayhew was warned ahead of time not to do so ).
That was when Mayhew slung his bullshit ( at John Maclean ) about how the SAIR never said there was a ‘communications gap’ with the Granite Mountain Hotshots for those 33 minutes between 4:04 PM and 4:37 PM.
Now… in his own NEW ‘Yarnell 5 years later’ article… Mayhew is right back to pushing the original SAIR line.
Mayhew refuses to even mention ANY of the vast amount of evidence that has surfaced since the SAIR came out.
Firehouse eZine
Article Title: Learning from Yarnell Hill
Published: June 1, 2018
Author: Brad Mayhew
Author dedscription: Brad Mayhew offers training exercises for developing yourself and your crew for the future.
https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/wildland/article/21003253/learning-from-yarnell-hill5-years-later-firehouse-magazine-granite-mountain-hotshots
The article itself is pretty much just a straight regurgitation of the original SAIR, and hardly worth reading… but it’s there at the link above.
What IS worth reading is the ( so far ) one-and-only COMMENT that has been made up there at Firehouse.com on this Mayhew article.
It only took ex-wildland-firefighter Holly Neill 24 hours to call Mayhew out about this ‘new’ article of his.
Since her kind of ‘against-the-company-dogma’ comment is likely to just ‘disappear’ like other similar comments… here is what she had to say to Mayhew reprinted in its entirety in case it DOES ‘vanish’ from Firehouse.com…
———————————————————————————————————-
Firehouse.com
Comment: Jun 02 2018 12:36
Posted By: henders839
My name is Holly Neill.
I am a former Wildland Firefighter and I am working with John Maclean on a book about the Yarnell Hill fire. I have a few comments about this article.
Mr. Mayhew states: Personnel who communicated with the Granite Mountain IHC knew the crew was using the black as a safety zone at the southwest end of the fire—and believed they would stay there. When the crew said they were moving, they were not fully understood.
The Serious Accident Investigation Report states on the Executive Summary page 1 “No one realized that the crew left the black and headed southeast, sometime after 1604. There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC. From 1604 until 1637, the Team cannot verify communications from the crew, and we have almost no direct information for them.”
There is a great deal of evidence to the contrary. A careful study of official and private interviews, audio recordings and other evidence indicates numerous overhead had specific intel on what GMIHC was doing during the “gap in over 30 minutes in the information available…from 1604 to 1637.” I will go into more detail in our book, but documented evidence will show that numerous overhead personnel stated the following about GMIHC’s movements:
– The last communication with Eric Marsh was: we are on the west ridge descending a predetermined escape route.
– Eric said he was headed to his pre designated safety zone, and the assumption was he was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch, not the black.
– Granite Mountain said they were using their predetermined route towards the structures… obviously whoever they were talking to knew what that meant.
– They (Granite Mountain) were gonna move out and start coming in a southerly direction based on the fire behavior..
– From an audio recording of Eric Marsh himself, he is answering to a status update check at 16:13: “Granite is making their way down our escape route from this morning, it’s SOUTH…”
This is by no means a complete list of reported communications involving Granite Mountain during the SAIR’s gap of over 30 minutes in the information available. The Team states “we cannot verify communications from the crew and have almost no direct information for them.”
These communications also contradict what Mr. Mayhew said above: Personnel who communicated with the Granite Mountain IHC knew the crew was using the black as a safety zone at the southwest end of the fire—and believed they would stay there.
Mr. Mayhew also stated “When the crew said they were moving, they were not fully understood.”
This issue will be discussed further in our book.
Perhaps for now, at the 5 year anniversary of the Yarnell Hill fire, we can honor The GMIHC by learning more about communications on the Yarnell Hill fire on June 30, most notably the communications that occurred during the SAIR’s “gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC, from 1604 until 1637.”
Esse Quam Videri – To be, rather than to seem.
———————————————————————————————————
**
** HORSE PARK FIRE INCIDENT – MAY 27, 2018
**
** TRANSCRIPT OF THE HORSE PARK FIRE VIDEO SHOT FROM THE LOGAN UTV
Here is a PRELIMINARY Transcript of that 3rd May 27, 2018 Horse Park Fire video that
was taken by one of the Logan Hotshots in the second Logan IHC UTV.
That video is available for viewing at the following link…
https://youtu.be/Hv8Qgq1NWjw
OTR = Over the Radio voice
ITF = In The Foreground voice
———————————————————————————————————-
+0:00
OTR Voice 1: So they’re like… uhm… the Logan Crew Boss and one other was IN the fire?
+0:06
ITF Voice: Uh… copy that.
+0:07
( The other Logan IHC UTV emerges from the fireline with driver and one passenger )
+0:08
OTR Voice 2: We’ve got a firestorm over here. We’re all backing out.
We’ve still got units ( in there ) trying to find them…
+0:14
OTR Voice 2: Looks… like… he got them. They’re out.
+0:17
OTR Voice 3: Lost a vehicle but we got them out.
( Sound of someone ‘cheering’ in the far background? )
+0:22
OTR Voice 4: Uh… that’s a copy. Lost a vehicle but you got the guys out?
+0:25 throught +0:35
( Various voices yelling “GO!… GO!…” in the background )
+0:35
ITF Voice 1 – in the UTV: Fuck. I’m out a vehicle.
+0:37
OTR Voice 4: ( Mountain? ) Helitack… please return to your ground base.
+0:40
ITF Voice 1 – in the UTV: “Go… go… go… go… go… go…” ( six times )
+0:42
ITF Voice 2 – in the UTV: Your fuckin’ truck… yeah.
+0:44
OTR – Helitack: Let me drop this bucket… then I’ll come in and ( ? get on the ground as usual ).
+0:54
ITF Voice 1 – in the UTV: Well… that truck is ( fucked? ) up.
+0:55
ITF Voice 2 – in the UTV: Yeah.
+0:57
ITF Voice 2 – in the UTV: Thank god he got out of it.
+1:00
ITF Voice 1 – in the UTV: Was he by himself?
+1:01
ITF Voice 2 – in the UTV: I think so. There’s no way I don’t think he would come out…
+1:04
VIDEO ENDS
———————————————————————————————————–
Some interesting things about what is being said in this video…
1. The two Logan Hotshots in that SECOND Logan IHC UTV seemed to be clueless as to how MANY people were ‘trapped’ behind the fireline because of that stuck Logan IHC Superintendent’s truck. They are talking amongst themselves at the end of the video about whether the Logan Hotshots just rescued had been ‘by himself’ back there, or not.
2. At the start of the video we hear someone in ‘command’ ( who was NOT there at that staging area where the rescue was happening ) being informed for the FIRST time what the situation really was at that staging area. In what amounts to the same radio transmission… ‘command’ is being informed that they “have a firestorm” and that they are “backing out” and that the Logan IHC ‘Crew Boss’ and ‘one other’ are “IN the fire”… and that they have a “unit” ( the Logan UTV ) out “trying to find them”. But then, in the very next moment, the Logan UTV emerges “out of the gates of hell” with a passenger and ‘command’ is immediately informed “Lost a vehicle but we got them out”.
3. Notice what is NEVER mentioned in this radio traffic at the time the ‘rescue’ was concluding and they are LEAVING that staging area.
The ‘missing’ Logan IHC LOOKOUT.
No one ever mentions him ( or her? ).
Not the person giving the ‘SITREP’ to ‘command’ at the start of the video… and not even the two Logan Hotshots who were in that second Logan IHC UTV and shooting this video.
According to both the FLA 24 and 72 hour reports… this ‘rescue’ was taking place circa 5:10 PM on May 27, 2018.
Were the people at the staging area still not even AWARE ( at 5:10 PM ) that the Logan LOOKOUT was even ‘missing’?
What was the real reason the Logan Superintendent’s truck was even ‘back there’ in that canyon to even get ‘stuck’?
Were they really just ‘scouting’ ( as the FLA reports suggest )… or had they gone back there to actually LOOK for the LOOKOUT who they knew they had already lost contact with?
OR… were they still totally unaware WHAT the fate of the Logan LOOKOUT was circa 5:10 PM… and they were all now ‘backing out’ from the staging area and ( essentially ) leaving the Logan IHC LOOKOUT behind?
The FLA 72-Hour report seems to say that the Logan IHC LOOKOUT was picked up by “aerial resources” after he had already started ‘burning out around himself’… but BEFORE he had to actually lie down in his fire shelter. That can only mean a “Helicopter” picked him up.
But we actually HEAR one of the ‘Helitack’ Helicopter pilots talking to ‘fire command’ ( the IC? ) in this video… and he is just “going about his business” doing bucket drops. No mention of any “aerial rescue” operation either in=progress or planned. He is just told to “return to ground base” and says “okay… after I drop this bucket”.
So had the “aerial rescue” of the Logan IHC LOOKOUT already taken place ( circa 5:10 PM )… or all of that was “yet to come”?
Still a lot ( more ) to know about this Horse Park Incident.
A wee bit more information on the Horse Park Fire
The HS Supt and the female lookout were absolutely convinced that they were going to deploy their respective fire shelters. Fortunately, their training and flight instincts kicked in and they each booked it.
According to the most detailed 72-Hour Report I have read in quite a while, the HS Lookout “moved DOWN and AWAY from the fire.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) This is and was a VERY good thing to do as long as there is NO downslope wind and/or fire behavior.
However, a few lines later the detailed 72-Hour Report notes that “The lookout dropped their pack, but kept the fire shelter, a tool and radio.” This is another good thing to do – DROP YOUR STUFF as you are escaping.
WF training tells you to do all that based on empirical data from fatality fires (i.e. 1994 South Canyon) by Dr. Ted Putnam that you can travel as much as 20% faster without the extra weight.
However, I take issue somewhat with the FLA wording when they use the word “but” as if that was the improper thing to do. It would have been more approvable (yes that actually is a word) and preferable if the FLA would have used the word “and” instead of the word “but.”
Semantics …? Yes and no. Words DO mean things. The preferred option would be “The lookout dropped their pack, AND kept fire shelter, a tool and radio.”
After all, the UNinformed WFs like GMHS alleged “lookout” McDonough of the Hillbilly Clan, need to know that the Logan HS lookout did the right thing, rather than follow the example of the GMHS Hillbilly on June 30, 2013.
Fortunately, the helicopter scooped her and the BRHS scooped the Hillbilly alleged “lookout.”
The 72-Hour Report notes that “After moving a considerable distance DOWN A DRAINAGE, the lookout found a suitable spot …” (EMPHASIS ADDED) This is definitely NOT a good practice because a drainage is a chute, a chimney, a potential death trap. Maybe that was the clearest, quickest route for her under those extremely stressful conditions.
The HS WFs at the Supt. truck were in the process of “locking the hubs” when the fire behavior revealed that they promptly leave the area in time to grab their gear and go, leaving the driver side door open. Not known if they decided to engage the 4WD after they were hung up.
One of the components that contributed to the explosive fire behavior viewed in the numerous videos was the somewhat complex fuels and how aggressively they burned.
The live and dead Fuel Moisture (FM) levels determine the flammability of the fuels. According to local sources, the 1000 hour dead FM levels (the larger logs and such) were EXPLOSIVELY LOW at 4% and 6% at 7000’ish to 8560′ at the Stevens Gulch and Black Canyon RAWS respectively. Black Canyon was the only one listed on the RAWS USA website.
https://wrcc.dri.edu/wraws/coF.html
The live FM values of the sagebrush and oaks were both 100% and the live Juniper FM was critically low at 60%, basically dormant.
Review the Synthesis of Knowledge of Extreme Fire Behavior: Volume 1 for Managers. Werth, P. et al (2011) General Technical Report (PNW-GTR-854). This and Volume 2 of the same title are probably two of the finest USDA Forest Service publications ever; well worth freely obtaining and well worth reading and researching. Your tax dollars at work here, so take advantage of it.
https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr854.pdf
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on June 7, 2018 at 6:27 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The HS Supt and the female lookout were absolutely convinced
>> that they were going to deploy their respective fire shelters.
>> Fortunately, their training and flight instincts kicked in and
>> they each booked it.
Fortunately is right.
I checked.
There is no ‘Toyota Center’ near Logan, Utah… so not sure where they would have had the memorial services.
Also… thank you for confirming that the Logan IHC lookout who almost lost her life was female, not male.
I was actually ‘assuming’ male/or female… but for the sake of time it was easier to just type ‘he’ and ‘him’ and ‘his’ rather than a constant stream of ‘he/she’ and/or ‘him/her’ and/or ‘his/her’.
The English language is still totally gender specific when it comes to certain things and there are no good ‘alternatives’ when you don’t really KNOW the gender of the person you are talking about.
More about that below.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Fortunately, the helicopter scooped her and the BRHS scooped
>> the Hillbilly alleged “lookout.” ( McDonough / Donut )
Again… fortunately indeed.
Still pretty curious about that… and the possible “Lessons to Learn’ pertaining to just this one of three near-fatalities.
I have been looking at that area pretty closely with Google Earth and if by ‘down and away’ they mean she ‘descended’ into that same canyon ( somewhere ) where the Logan Superintendent Truck got stuck… I’m not seeing anywhere where a Helicopter could have set down in that canyon even under normal ( smoke-free ) circumstances.
So I wonder WHERE she was, exactly… and HOW they found her ( no working radio )… and then how, exactly, they ‘scooped her up’.
Is it possible this was one of those “just get into the Bambi Bucket’ helicopter extractions with no landing involved?
Also… when the report says that she…
“…found a grassy spot that appeared suitable to deploy a shelter”
…I wonder what “APPEARED suitable” really means?
“Appeared suitable” to HER… or is the FLA investigation team tyring to already say they have viewed this area and THEY are the ones saying it “appeared suitable” to THEM.
Either it was suitable… or it wasn’t.
If it wasn’t… then BIG ALARMS on this regarding TRAINING ISSUES.
“How big is big enough?”
It’s been almost 5 years since Yarnell.
Has Wildland Firefighter training really addressed THAT problem yet?
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The HS WFs at the Supt. truck were in the process of “locking
>> the hubs” when the fire behavior revealed that they promptly
>> leave the area in time to grab their gear and go, leaving the
>> driver side door open. Not known if they decided to engage
>> the 4WD after they were hung up.
Interesting.
So that means that when they first realized they were ‘stuck’, they felt there was still a chance the fire would NOT burn up the vehicle… so they were taking the TIME to ‘lock the hubs’ so no one would steal the tires and/or the truck while they were gone?
Really?
Then… only while taking the TIME to do THAT did they suddenly realize the deep shit they were in and decide to RUN LIKE HELL?
If they hadn’t made it… I wonder if we would be talking now about whether the wasted TIME they took to try and ‘lock the hubs’ was the equivalent of the wasted TIME it took Granite Mountain to ‘look for’ their deployment site, rather than try any other option.
Sometimes… SECONDS COUNT.
SIDENOTE: The King’s English and GENDER.
Back to the whole gender thing for a moment.
The FLA 72-Hour report was definitely making sure to HIDE the gender of the Logan IHC Lookout.
They thought they did a pretty good job of just using the phrase ‘the lookout’, but even they got betrayed at least once by the fact that when it comes to POSSESSIVES, the King’s English does NOT have any adequate gender-neutral options.
Here is the whole paragraph again from the FLA 72-Hour report that is purposely ‘hiding’ the gender of the lookout…
——————————————————————————–
“Meanwhile, the crew lookout was forced to flee from the lookout position by the same advance of the fire. Given the fire behavior, the lookout did not feel it was possible to outpace the fire and make it back to the vehicles, so instead moved down and away from the fire. The lookout dropped their pack, but kept the fire shelter, a tool, and radio. At some point during the escape, the lookout realized that the antennae was no longer attached to the radio and there was no way to communicate with the crew or other resources. After moving a considerable distance down a drainage, the lookout found a grassy spot that appeared suitable to deploy a shelter, and began lighting the fuels in the area.
Before deployment was necessary, aerial resources located the lookout, who was picked up and flown back to the parking area to rejoin the crew.”
——————————————————————————-
They did a good job ‘hiding’ the gender… but in ONE place you see the PROOF that they were consciously deciding to do that… because rather than reveal the gender they consciously chose to use the WRONG word.
Rather than say ( correctly )…
“The lookout dropped HER pack”
They chose, instead, to just use the WRONG word instead of reveal any gender…
“The lookout dropped THEIR pack”
The only way that would have been the right word is if there were multiple lookouts…
“The lookouts dropped THEIR packs”
One of these days, the King’s English will have good, accepted gender-neutral words for ‘singular possessives’… but not in our lifetimes.
Wtktt,
Hey, you’re not AI at all, you’re human! I knew it!
Locking hubs, also known as free wheeling hubs are fitted to some (mainly older) four-wheel drive vehicles, allowing the front wheels to rotate freely when disconnected (unlocked) from the front axle. This is done to reduce the mechanical resistance of the front-portion of the drivetrain when four-wheel drive is not in use.[1] The hub, along with the wheel, is designed to engage (lock) onto the axle, to be powered by the drivetrain in four-wheel drive; or the hub can disengage (unlock) from the axle when four-wheel drive is not needed, thus allowing the front wheels to rotate freely within the hub. The hub is a component where the wheel is directly mounted to, and is outside the axle.
The benefits of unlocking hubs for normal road use are mainly found in increased fuel efficiency. When the front hubs are locked, even if no power is sent to the front axle (by means of a transfer case), the turning of the wheels will still spin the front axle, differential, and driveshaft, which puts extra load on the engine. Unlocking the hubs disconnects the wheels from the axle, which eliminates this extra load. Other benefits also include keeping the front-differential free from unnecessary wear, quieter operation, less vibration, and lower wear in other drive line components. However, many manufacturers list engaging the hubs (even in 2WD mode) for several miles a month to lubricate the front drive train as part of the vehicle’s regular maintenance schedule.
Mechanically activated locking hubs are activated by hand by turning a switch on the end of the axle. The advantage to mechanical hubs is that they are often considered more robust, and less prone to issues due to maintenance negligence. The disadvantage of this is that the driver needs to get out of the vehicle to activate the hubs.”
Thanks for the chuckle. Keep up the good work!
Reply to Woodsman post on June 9, 2018 at 7:07 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Wtktt,
>> Hey, you’re not AI at all, you’re human! I knew it!
>>
>> ( snip – The real story about “Locking Hubs” )
>>
>> Thanks for the chuckle. Keep up the good work!
And thank YOU for building that bridge across my chasm of cluelessness.
This also means I was wrong when I said they might have “driven right up to where it was unsafe”.
If they had any time at all to ‘fuck with the truck’… then that was probably not the case.
They obviously didn’t have enough time for any of their winch or jack options… but they did have SOME time to try SOMETHING.
I still wonder exactly how MUCH time they had to do anything at all before having to “run for their lives”.
You know me. No DETAIL is TOO SMALL when it comes to trying to learn everything there is to learn from these ‘incidents’.
Yes I do & you are very detail orientated.
Just my opinion but they must not have had much time as ditching a roughly 80k truck (rig + all the equipment) and their primary crew command vehicle is not an easy call to make. That took courage & honesty. Nobody wants to have to “fill out THAT paperwork.” Human life is more precious that any vehicle but it’s harder to let it go when you are in the midst of bad things. You KNOW people will run their mouths and it will follow you for the rest of your career. That’s one of the reasons I wanted give them praise from at least one shmo because they’re gonna get shit for it & people mumbling in the background for years (who weren’t there BTW). Don’t sacrifice your life for a fucking Supe truck! …and they didn’t.
Thanks for understanding what I was saying in that regard & what it meant.
I’m still impressed with how much of our world you’ve been able to pick up being an outsider. Your research is admirable and necessary. Thanks.
Oriented, I should say…
And speaking of mumbling in the background and such, I met a South Canyon survivor last year and people still talk in hushed tones. Must be tough being famous for something you never ever wanted to be famous for.
Reply to Woodsman post on
June 9, 2018 at 2:55 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Just my opinion but they must not have
>> had much time as ditching a roughly 80k
>> truck (rig + all the equipment) and their
>> primary crew command vehicle is not an easy
>> call to make.
No, it’s not.
Especially when these crews have to fight for money and equipment basically ALL the time.
That’s a whole ‘nother story.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> That took courage & honesty.
Yes, it did. Kudos to them.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Nobody wants to have to “fill out THAT paperwork.”
>> Human life is more precious that any vehicle but
>> it’s harder to let it go when you are in the midst
>> of bad things. You KNOW people will run their
>> mouths and it will follow you for the rest of
>> your career.
Look at the transcript above for that video shot from the
other Logan IHC UTV.
It only took 28 SECONDS from the time the other UTV ’emerged’ from the ‘gates of hell’ for them to start ‘running their mouths’ and bitching about the loss of the truck.
The FIRST words we hear in the foreground coming from those other Logan Hotshots in that other UTV were…
“Fuck. I’m out a vehicle”
It isn’t until they bitch about the loss of the vehicle TWICE as they are escaping before one of the Hotshots remembers to mention it was good their fellow Hotshot ( Superintendent himself? ) “made it out alive”.
So yea… hard ( and IMMEDIATE ) audio/visual evidence that proves your point.
He’s gonna hear about it. A LOT.
Good points. We get attached to stuff: trucks, engines, machinery, even something seemingly as low-cost & easily replaced as a chainsaw. It seems irrational & it is, but that doesn’t make it untrue.
That attachment must be let go in the critical moment or people die. These things may become security blankets under enormous stress. We must train our firefighters to let it go in order to live when faced with certain death… No matter if the situation was created by the resources in peril themselves or external to them.
And I like everything RTS posted about older training emphasis on escape routes because a key to survival on a wildfire is a viable escape route at all times if it turns ugly. How big is big enough is huge but if you can’t get there with 100% certainty, well…it don’t much matter what size the safety zone is or anything else about it. I stress this in my own customized training. NWCG would hate me because I change a lot of the training to reflect what i perceive as more reflective of reality.
I’ve actually made what I believe to be improvements in the training I give based on some things that come up in discussion here.
Now, I’ve got my huge bowl of popcorn ready waiting to find out at least 2 more items of interest in this latest incident: how was the lookout picked up by helo after she proceeded to burnout an area for shelter deployment, & how do the jumpers fit in to the scenario that occurred? Jumpers being there is significant. Can’t wait. Experience tells me this is going to be another wide ride.
Oh, and Logan is bonafide fed, so I don’t think they are under the fighting for every dollar deal like a non-federal crew would be. They get the best out of the federal coffers. WIC…
Woodsman,
Yes indeed, My Friend, having Leapers (SMJ) involved here is VERY significant, much more than people realize.
Welcome to The Club for posting this: “NWCG would hate me because I change a lot of the training to reflect what i perceive as more reflective of reality.”
Right on Brother. Instructors are given some leeway in their training as long as they stress the basics and cores required by NWCG.
I am so very thankful that the Logan HS, for the most part, chose correctly and acted based on how they were trained – to ESCAPE first! Kudos to you Logan HS for training your WFs properly..
And by doing so, they overcame the impulse to deploy their fire shelters which likely would have saved their lives, maybe with some burns; but then the NWCG Fire Shelter Empire could then claim another “successful deployment” to add to their video playlist of effective deployments rather than proactively following the Basic WDF Rules and avoiding a fire shelter deployment.
This would have been fodder and support for other WFs to follow suit in the future and add to their Lessons Learned playlist.
Retired Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman and other ‘Warrior Science’ authors, emphatically contend in ‘On Combat’ that you need to train far beyond mere sufficiency to achieve a level of “stress acclimatization” and “stress inoculation” which promotes future success in times like what these HS faced.
These WFs likely had to change their drawers after each of them was certain they were going to deploy their fire shelters. And Lt. Col. Grossman covers that very common phenomenon as well.
The Logan HS, with several new WFs to the Crew, were in a VERY unique situation prior to the Horse Peak Fire. They had just finished their Critical Training and went available right away and then were summarily dispatched to the Horse Park (HP) Fire.
They had spent a week or maybe two in the required Basic and/or Critical Training. The supervisors would have been doing their best to efficiently and effectively build, and then manage their Crew to perform their inherently dangerous job as best and as safely as possible.
This means they had no additional time to work on their “Crew Cohesion. And THEN they stepped right on into the HP Fire at the witching hour, about 1500, and the fire was now sizeable and “rolling.”.
It will be interesting to see what (if anything) becomes of the “another road” story with the ‘Bros’ likely complicit in the firing operation that was SUPPOSED to have been canceled.. \
And glad to see you were nice and proper, ‘educated’ on what it means to lock the hubs …
Supposed to be:
WTKTT, glad to see you were nice and proper, ‘educated’ on what it means to lock the hubs …
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on June 9, 2018 at 10:29 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Supposed to be:
>>
>> WTKTT, glad to see you were
>> nice and proper, ‘educated’ on
>> what it means to lock the hubs …
So educate me some more… and see if you can answer THIS ( relevant ) question…
If you HAVE a vehicle that is CAPABLE of 4WD… how stupid is it to drive down a remote canyon on a two-track road that isn’t even wide enough for you to easily turn-around on WITHOUT making damn sure your 4WD is ALREADY fully ‘engaged’ and ‘ready to be used’?
As in… maybe you just might NEED to use it?
I can see trying to ‘save the gas’ and/or the ‘wear and tear on the engine/drivetrain’ while you are simply traveling…
…but once you get ‘on the job’ for an ‘Initial Attack’ out in the boondock… why in God’s name would you NOT make sure your 4WD is fully ‘engaged’ and ‘good to go’ as you hit the fireline?
In this case… and if things had gone a little differently and those 2 Logan Hotshots had died out there fucking around with trying to “Lock the Hubs” only AFTER getting ‘stuck’… this might be a VERT important question that deserves a good answer.
You know me. Always looking for ( ALL ) the ‘Lessons to Learn’ when these public servants almost die ‘on the job’.
WTKTT,
Good questions and legitimate concerns regarding the 4WD issue. The conventional wisdom is that one would ‘lock the hubs’ into 4WD High on a road like that from the very start. You wouldn’t need it to actually get up the road, it would be for easier and smoother driving.
And one of the major rules regarding 4WD is that you ‘lock the hubs’ BEFORE you get into trouble
RTS,
I guess it’s up to us to bring context to the discussion concerning what it means that jumpers were there. They are unique as far as wildland firefighters go. I will defer to your experience to get started on this one. Let’s just say for now that when you told me that jumpers were involved I just facepalmed….just fucking facepalmed…
Wtktt,
Yes, it’s stupid not to have hubs locked way before you need 4wd traction. I need to research the vehicle because there are different systems on the Ford Super Duty’s. It looks like the old style with a manual transfer case shifter & manual (by hand outside the vehicle) locking hubs. But there ARE some later models with electronic shift transfer case (dial on the dash) and automatic electric locking hubs (they engage/disengage automatically.) This 2nd more modern type, at least on the Super Duty Fords, actually have manual locking hubs in addition to electric as a backup in case the electrics fail to engage. I know it’s complicated but it depends on the year and trim level of the truck. It’s yet another potential example of high-tech bullshit on new vehicles possibly almost killing people.
RTS,
I’m telling you, man. The videos posted initially by the FD is a ground ignition gone tits up. I knew it the moment I saw it the first time. I’m 100% suspicious of the jumpers for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact the weren’t mentioned at all in the first reports by the dickheads in charge.
Woodsman approves of this message.
Woodsman,
They are indeed unique as far as wildland firefighters go. And most people think of Jumpers as the glorious “elite,” as they often refer to Hot Shots, and in a way there still are many that fit that class. And like all other WFs, they range from poor (or worse) to excellent. The thing that always bothered me, and still does, is that they almost all were good Hot Shots FIRST, before they became SMJs. And then it was as if someone sucked part of their brains out, so they could take the Trip to Abilene, and “Go Along to Get Along.”
When I heard that there were jumpers involved in the firing operation, I immediately went back and reread the 72-hour report and NOTHING about SMJs at all. WARNING!
This is a good time to review the YouTube video about the Bros.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOvM2u8l64
And Adolph, of course, thinks differently in this one and he’s a little upset because he has no Jumpers
https://wwquite a bit w.youtube.com/watch?v=ajbnAAZ7pAc
More on the serious note, a Type 3 and Type 2 Safety Officer (the same guy) filed three separate SAFENETS on three separate fires in 2016. They were ALL on Jumpers and Former Jumpers for safety issues regarding Leadership by NOT setting the right examples, and failure to wear or properly wear their Personal Protective Equip. (PPE), including a Type 2 IC, in training as a Type 1 IC, also an ex -Jumper.
This all occurred on these three fires:
(1) Strawberry Fire (August 10, 2016 – SAFENET #20160923-0002) NV-GBP-040129; Great Basin NP, NV; Human Factors, Other Human Factors: Decision Making, Leadership, Risk Assessment; Safety, Attitude, Double Standard; Firing Operation, Holding, Mop up
(2) Henry’ Creek Fire (August 25, 2016; SAFENET #20160923-0003) Bonneville County, Idaho Falls District BLM, ID; Line Construction and Mop-Up on 4 Divisions; Human Factors, Other Human Factors: Decision Making, Leadership, Risk Assessment; Safety, Attitude, Double Standard; Firing Operation, Holding, and Mop up
(3) Pioneer Fire (August 30, 2016; SAFENET # 20160731-0001) Boise NF, ID; Human Factors, Other Human Factors: Decision Making, Leadership, Risk Assessment; Safety, Attitude, Double Standard; Mop up on two Divisions
Needless to say, the Jumpers were PISSED, and some still are, including the Quisling
I reached my IM two-link quota, so I will include the NIFC SAFENET link in another post following this one. Definitely, must reads.
I totally agree that the posted HFD Facebook videos definitely reveal a firing operation gone bad. It just too symmetrically even to be otherwise. I do my best to give Jumpers the benefit of the doubt because there are some darn good ones. I too was very apprehensive when they were NOT mentioned in the 72-hour report.
It sure seems a bit shady there.
NIFC Safety Management SAFENETS for 2016 in ID dealing with Human Factors
https://safenet.nifc.gov/safenet_rpt.cfm
Go to the NIFC Safety Management SAFENETS link and key in these elements for 2016 in ID dealing with Human Factors
RTS,
Yep. I remember reading all those safenets. Thanks for reminding me about them.
Jumpers are accustomed to working small fires in remote areas with limited supervision -it’s what they do & are for. My experience with them has been OK but they play to a different drummer. Rougeish tendencies? I don’t trust them across the board on large fires because they’re such a different type of resource created for a very specific purpose. Why in God’s green earth were they being deployed on such a fire so early in the season? If I had to choose which type of firefighter is most apt to “do their own thing,” it would be jumpers followed closely by municipal firefighters. In fact (& you can add them to the growing list including NWCG which hate me) I believe their concept is outdated & the program should be eliminated. My perception is that tradition alone is the reason we still have them. Alright, maybe keep the Alaska jumpers because of the remoteness. Lower 48? Nah.
Thanks for confirming how obvious it was that those videos showed a ground ignition gone wrong. They lit it from the top. That’s a straight wall of fire angled to the slope. If I didn’t know that then I need to hang up the boots.
Any word on the heli-rescue of the lookout yet? That’s going to be one hell of a tale! I bet the dickheads are really having a hard time trying to come up with a method to spin that yarn…
Your post gave me the impression that the Leapers (now THAT’S funny) were involved in the ground ignition. Is that what your sources are saying at this point?
Thanks!
Woodsman,
The Leapers were present when the IC informed the HS that the firing option was no longer valid because it had jumped the road they had planned on as a control line and scouted.
One of the Leapers made the comment about “another road,”
Years ago they figured out they wisely figured out they can delivery a unique service of aerial (or ground) delivery provide a large stick in the form of a Type 3 IMT.
So much for WF cutters and diggers when that is what you ordered.
You have to hand it to them for coming up with the idea of providing a unique one-stop-shopping IMT
The jumper program is very outdated and should be eliminated, however, it’s pure tradition and power that they
remain because many of them control the upper levels of Fire Management.
The FLA 72-hour report also failed to mention that there was a contingent of Smokejumpers (SMJ) involved as well that may very well have influenced the HS decision to commence a firing operation in spite of the DIVS’s direction that the firing option was invalid due to fire crossing the road.
The SMJ(s) apparently found “another road” below the main road and mentioned/radioed that to the HS.
Most WF supervisors consider SMJs on a fire as another Watch Out.
The fact that there is nothing about SMJs in the 72-hour report suggests that there is possibly a SMJ former SMJ on the FLA, running interference for his “bros.”
Ruh roh, Shaggy……
https://goo.gl/images/WDT4Uf
this is an image to show where Woodsman got his lingo-
Someone I know had no clue that is was Scooby Doo
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on June 9, 2018 at 9:17 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The FLA 72-hour report also failed to mention that
>> there was a contingent of Smokejumpers (SMJ)
>> involved as well that may very well have influenced
>> the HS decision to commence a firing operation
>> in spite of the DIVS’s direction that the firing option
>> was invalid due to fire crossing the road.
There IS independent evidence that a crew of Smokejumers WAS there working the Horse Park Fire on May 27, 2018… the day of the ‘incidents’ involving the Logan Hotshots.
The ‘Horse Park’ fire was named as such because of the nearby famous place ( just to the northwest of the fire ) with the same name ( Horse Park ). It’s a place where where wild mustangs are cared for.
The website for this ‘Horse Park’ itself ( also known as the ‘Spring Creek Basin Mustangs Ranch’ ) ran a ‘Horse Park Fire’ article on May 28, 2018… but the blogger gave details about what had been going on since the fire started a few days earlier… and on May 27, 2018… and WHO was there working the fire.
There are also about half-a-dozen photos on the blog entry.
Two of them identify two BLM vehicles that were there…
BLM Engine 3432
BLM Command Vehicle CO-SWD ( Colorado, Southwest District ) Unit UT-34
Spring Creek Basin Mustangs – Blog Post
Published: May 28, 2018
https://springcreekbasinmustangs.com/2018/05/28/horse-park-fire/
From that article…
———————————————————————-
Unofficially, by my observations and from information given by Patrick and Dan, there was a lot of activity on this fire: a crew of smoke jumpers and a crew of hot shots; a fire team out of Norwood; BLM firefighters from Dolores; three big air tankers (resupplying in Durango, Cortez and Grand Junction, I think Dan said); at least four, maybe five, smaller planes dropping retardant; at least two helicopters carrying water buckets; at least one aircraft coordinating all the others (there were a lot of “birds” in the sky!).
——————————————————————
So he lists all of the following…
1. A crew of Smoke Jumpers ( ? Who? How many? )
2. A crew of Hotshots ( Logan IHC )
3. A fire team out of Norwood ( ? )
4. BLM firefighters out of Norwood ( BLM Engine 3432, Command UT-34, who else? )
5. 3 big Air Tankers ( resupplying in Durango, Cortez and Grand Junction )
6. 4 or 5 smaller planes ( SEATS )
7. TWO Helicopters ( who? )
8. One other aircraft ‘coordinating’ the others ( an ASM Module. Who? )
**
** HORSE PARK FIRE INCIDENT – MAY 27, 2018
**
** UPDATE: THIRD VIDEO EMERGES
A THIRD video has emerged that shows yet another view of the “out of the gates of hell” emergency rescue of that Logan Hotshot at the Horse Park Fire.
If you have seen the other TWO videos that were posted on the Hotchkiss Fire District Facebook page… you will have already noticed that the Logan Hotshts had TWO UTVs with them there at the Horse Park Fire, the afternoon of May 27, 2018.
ONE of those Logan UTVs is the one that comes “out of the gates of hell” after having rescued that other Logan Hotshot from the ‘stuck’ Logan Superintendent’s Truck out in the canyon.
In the Hotchkiss FD videos… the OTHER Logan IHC UTV was sitting out there on the side of the road during this ‘rescue’.
THIS video was actually shot by one of the other Logan Hotshots who was sitting in that other UTV out there on the side of the road.
It provides the best view yet of the ‘rescue’ and that other UTV breaking through the fireline with the ‘rescued’ Logan Hotshot onboard.
The video is available for viewing at the following YouTube link…
https://youtu.be/Hv8Qgq1NWjw
YouTube ‘About’ information for this video…
———————————————————————————————————
This video was shot on the afternoon of May 27, 2018 by one of the Logan Hotshots in one of the two Logan IHC UTVs in use at the Horse Park Fire. It is yet another view of the moment when the other Logan UTV comes ‘out of the gates of hell’ after rescuing another Logan Hotshot from the Logan Superintendent’s truck, which had gotten ‘stuck” behind the fireline, out in the canyon.
———————————————————————————————————
NOTE: Conversation recorded in this video between the two Logan Hotshots who were riding in this UTV appears to now CONFIRM that the Logan Hotshot who was ‘rescued’ was, in fact, actually the Logan Superintendent himself.
https://youtu.be/iWm3myJdQO4
kinda funny right after your video post it goes into Mike Dudley—
Yea… it’s always funny watching YouTube figure out what to use as a ‘follow-up’ video and what is ‘related’ to the one you just viewed.
Sometimes they are ‘more right’ than they even know.
Followup…
I just viewed that third Horse Park Fire incident video again myself and this time the ‘follow up’ video chose by YouTube was…
Dan Sullivan’s role at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27EPGgtLK7g
Thank you WTKTT for putting this together and posting it. It’s amazing how these video clips just keep appearing. There are bound to be more.
Are you able to meld all of these from different angles and such into one video as you did with one of your YH Fire videos?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on June 6, 2018 at 6:25 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Thank you WTKTT for putting this together and posting it.
>> It’s amazing how these video clips just keep appearing.
>> There are bound to be more.
The only ‘thanks’ that need to go out are to the public servants who realized that ‘the public’ needed to SEE these videos. Kudos to THEM.
Can you imagine if these ‘videos’ had NOT been made public?
We probably wouldn’t even have known about this ‘incident’ at all.
There are valuable LESSONS TO LEARN here.
As Woodsman pointed out… for TWO reasons.
1. How to NOT get into such a situation in the first place.
2. How to get OUT of it once you ARE ‘in it’.
I still agree with Woodsman on this.
Putting aside ALL ‘judgement’ for BOTH situations involving the Logan Hotshots and hot they got into them in the first place… the reason no one is having to rent the nearest Toyota Center back in Logan, Utah is because they made the RIGHT choices to get themselves OUT of the ( bad ) situations.
NEVER be hesitant to DROP PACKS and RUN LIKE HELL.
Contrary to what Darrell Willis said on National Television on July 23, 2013… There is NEVER any “honor” in burning to death in a deployment zone that is WAY too small and NOT survivable.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Are you able to meld all of these from different angles and such
>> into one video as you did with one of your YH Fire videos?
Yes.
I’m still identifying all the vehicles that were there at that location.
This latest ( THIRD ) video has good close-ups of the following…
1. That green ( BLM? ) engine that was also there.
2. The vehicles that both of the Hotchkiss FD videos were taken from.
As this second Logan UTV ‘turns around’ to follow the one with the rescued Logan Hotshot in it… we can clearly see BACK towards the other side of that gate and the vehicles where the Hotchkiss FD videos were being shot FROM.
9th attempt to post
I tried under woodsman
I was under the impression it was one person who dropped their pack yet you pluralized in your comment stating members, so is there a place online or another method you learned it was more than one?
I am just jumping in the topic of this specific fire…I have been doing other things lately so in a sense catching up this evening, about dropping packs- I thought that is how they are trained ….
I do not support the method of how they park the vehicle as they did because I think about worst case scenarios, so I would have parked the vehicle facing the Escape Route EXIT
positioning ready to leave to ensure it is ready for any scenario that was to arise
At the start when I got there is when I would HAVE made sure vehicle was ready to go.
To have the vehicle turn around like it did tells me someone was under stresses (for sure) and yeah I have seen vehicles like that many of times knowing Sonny as he drove those back roads and so I would need more data to make a proper assessment.
I have seen many high centered moments as well as quick sand times and barely hanging off a cliff and jack knifing a trailer and embankment moments just like in photo and each time I will not share the details but Sonny was not panicking he was Sonny…him and dirt and driving…might be something Gary could understand… (Moab)
Yet I in my way of thinking I do think someone is accountable because trucks do not just burn…
All this is beginning to tell me that the 10&18 and LCES and Watchout Situations are not being stressed seriously and that should be a main focus here.
Plus, in knowing Sonny and seeing so many styles of fires…how can one not know the fire that laid upon them or near or in front of them—how they cannot see it in some way or another—weather or not…the burn scars leaves clues… like a fire also brewing…then an almost incident…how come none has noticed how without the people there ( human factor ) then did anyone note no more fire, eh…
Yeah – seems odd FF there equal intense heat fire or should say some entity… FF off the fire line= fire out. I am still trying to figure that out. ???
I am all for fighting fires with fire but as I always said get these no experience local yocal small town FD who newly got a red card out of there- they do not belong with a drip torch…or these punk kids grown up who have no respect for the rules and safety matters plus any rain yet…???…it is dry as hell so I would watch who the industry allows to use a drip torch in these conditions…emhmmm…
But then again after reviewing records and listening to FFs, some on the GMHS also had a pattern of risky moments just blows me away, and I hate to say it because they are the facts as I know them.
If you sit down and unravel YHF in its purest form you will see the very folks who were there fighting the fire and there were many errors….They are now training these current FFs at the fire schools, so maybe they are being trained the RULES are hillbilly after all.
You will not find me saying Congrats, Woodsman…sorry
Just not enough data to properly assess
Thank the good Lord they were blessed that day but I do not like the fact they disregarded the rules…
So, I will say to them—your experience is unique to you—I can understand the shock you’re feeling though I haven’t experienced what you went through and this should make you aware that life is fragile and that one moment you’re here and the next you can be gone. This is your wakeup call and be right and share exactly as it went down so lessons can be learned not concealed…ok…if stress was panic mode for you then come see me and I will hook you up with someone who will help you with that or look Above…do not feel just because of this incident you will make a future expert until you realize the moment because too many times patterns happen…cough cough…I can drop names but I won’t but just to let you in…they are sadly are not able to be here to talk about it…cough cough…some of the GMHS crew
trying to post–hard time tonight
Side note:
*You are about to be entrapped or burned over by a wildfire: What are your survival options? by M.E. Alexander
http://ucanr.edu/sites/postfire/files/248532.pdf
Decision Workshop
Improving Wildland Firefighter Performance Under Stressful, Risky Conditions: Toward Better Decisions on the Fireline
and More Resilient Organizations
June 12–16, 1995
Village Red Lion Inn
100 Madison Street
Missoula, Montana
https://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf95512855/pdf95512855pt04.pdf
“They would have been able to move 15-20% faster (Putnam, 1994) without their packs and tools .”
“Virtually all the escaping firefighters carried their tools and packs even though it cost many of them their lives” (Putnam, 1994)
“Some 23 firefighters have perished trying to escape uphill carrying packs and equipment. Estimates show most would have lived had they simply dropped their gear and run for safety carrying only fire shelters.”
Putnam, Ted. 1994. Analysis of Escape Efforts and Personal Protective Equipment on the South Canyon Fire.
Missoula, MT: USDA Forest Service, Missoula Technology and Development Center
“Among the elements that led to this breakdown are physical and mental fatigue, recognition gaps, weather information not communicated or used, safety concerns not communicated, concerns about who was in charge (leadership) and the numerous
compromises of the SFOs and WOSs. When the blow-up occurred, these came together with deadly results. The attitudes also blocked the last escape path—dropping tools and packs, bugging out, and using shelters.”
South Canyon Fire Investigation of the14 fatalities that occurred on July 6,1994 near Glenwood Springs, Colorado
“Carrying tools and packs significantly slowed escape efforts.” (p. 4 Equipment)
http://npshistory.com/publications/fire/south-canyon-fire-investigation.pdf*
trying to post–hard time tonight
Side note:
*You are about to be entrapped or burned over by a wildfire: What are your survival options? by M.E. Alexander
http://ucanr.edu/sites/postfire/files/248532.pdf
Decision Workshop
Improving Wildland Firefighter Performance Under Stressful, Risky Conditions: Toward Better Decisions on the Fireline
and More Resilient Organizations
June 12–16, 1995
Village Red Lion Inn
100 Madison Street
Missoula, Montana
https://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf95512855/pdf95512855pt04.pdf
“They would have been able to move 15-20% faster (Putnam, 1994) without their packs and tools .”
“Virtually all the escaping firefighters carried their tools and packs even though it cost many of them their lives” (Putnam, 1994)
“Some 23 firefighters have perished trying to escape uphill carrying packs and equipment. Estimates show most would have lived had they simply dropped their gear and run for safety carrying only fire shelters.”
Putnam, Ted. 1994. Analysis of Escape Efforts and Personal Protective Equipment on the South Canyon Fire.
Missoula, MT: USDA Forest Service, Missoula Technology and Development Center
“Among the elements that led to this breakdown are physical and mental fatigue, recognition gaps, weather information not communicated or used, safety concerns not communicated, concerns about who was in charge (leadership) and the numerous
compromises of the SFOs and WOSs. When the blow-up occurred, these came together with deadly results. The attitudes also blocked the last escape path—dropping tools and packs, bugging out, and using shelters.”
South Canyon Fire Investigation of the14 fatalities that occurred on July 6,1994 near Glenwood Springs, Colorado
“Carrying tools and packs significantly slowed escape efforts.” (p. 4 Equipment)
http://npshistory.com/publications/fire/south-canyon-fire-investigation.pdf*
You can’t say congrats because you didn’t comprehend what I wrote & what it meant. Read it again
Who was the official IC on the Horse Park fire? was it Mike Megel Bureau of Land Management?
I comprehended that you Woodsman were stating
Congrats to the making it out alive and for dropping the packs
and I did place sources where the pack dropping is a good deal
but bottom line
not enough data for me to properly assess
and type “any kind” of praise
when continued rules are broken…
Shit, it gets old…
if we praise folks based on that and not the real stuff
then look at folks today like Bob Mutch and Steve Holdsambeck..
as I heard Steve say at the conference-
was it “create conclusions”…or as I call it “illusions”…
“distractions”
whatever it was
or ruin good people’s credibility based on people who know jack shit saying bad shit about good people….
yeah I am so done with good peoples’ credibility being ruined over hoping it is just ignorance and not calculated wickedness….
who knows but the ones doing it-
I am not for the go along and get along folks
but I am fair and firm those boys who made it out alive—
speak up with purity because
what really led to the one more time disregarding judgement
for now all the rules & everything that led to the bad situation Logan members found themselves in.
That is the place I am focused not that they made it out alive…YEAH!!!!…that I am already past that…I am back at the leadership and planning/ops…
I believe firmly as my own prior staff would share to you all that as a leader you must address and correct behaviors before they become patterned or it can impact the degree of your staff and your interactions with your crew…the fear and their level of concern because if you just go say to the one who escaped the incident glad you are safe and we will worry about the rest. you just carry on
then lessons are not really addressed and reprimands do not take place then you see what happened with certain other hotshot crews…here Dave Provencio historically logged all the HotShot crews but how about making a public display of the ones who keep making errors over and over and not learning from them…post that Dave Provencio. Right. Sounds like a needed thing in the industry-
I look for them doing this—
compliance evaluation,
competency evaluation,
game plan of possible “on watch” probation,
as well as I would have an anchoring bias sign off on the evaluations I did so a second person outside the organization (mediator)
so that sense of fear of losing job is there to build a better performance in the future,
It is not about dictatorship or lectures just a simple get to the “whys” and address a game plan…so in the end it is about awareness. Do not assume they “get it” just because they barely made it out alive…talking it through is the best way…to me it is all about knowledge, skills and attitude…
Thank you Rocksteady (http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474456)
https://the-journal.com/articles/98452#slide=0
The reports says 2 firefighters dropped packs, the lookout & one of the crew members in the supervisor’s truck. 2 is more than 1 so I pluralized it. Also, the truck was scouting, it wasn’t parked that way from my understanding. It sounds like we need you out here on the fire line, Joy. When are you available?
In my early years I once BACKED a pickup 1/2 mile OUT of a forest road after I found what I was looking for & had no place to safely get the rig pointed in the right direction to GTFO. I also (rediculous to me now) came close to giving my life in the attempt to save a government owned asset I was responsible for. I was more worried about it than me & having explain to management how I lost it.
So, one more time: disregarding judgment for now all the rules & everything that led to the bad situation Logan members found themselves in, GREAT FUCKING JOB being honest with the seriousness of the deal & ditching shit in order to live! Too many have died attempting to carry saws, packs, tools; not to mention trying to save engines & dozers etc. So, get with the program & allow yourself to see what’s good here. I’ll be the first in line to ream them for the fuckups when/if they become known. But for now, I’m super-extra stoked they did what they had to do in order to live.
https://twitter.com/OddSinclair/status/1003791636235628544
I love when FFs post their work videos and photos…
except this one
I can see now why they think the rules are hillbilly:
https://youtu.be/_-9LKkSDVzE
Reply to Joy A Collura post on
June 5, 2018 at 9:10 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> https://twitter.com/OddSinclair/status/1003791636235628544
>>
>> I love when FFs post their work videos and photos…
Lightning Round…
Twitter user ‘OddSinclair’ is actually Ethan Sinclair.
He is Alan Sinclair’s son.
Alan Sinclair was one of Eric Marsh’s friends, and Alan is now
the Incident Commander for one of the three Type 2 Southwest Area Incident Management Teams ( SWAIMT Team 3 ).
Alan Sinclair was the Incident Commander for the Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’.
His son, Ethan, was an extra in the movie “Only The Brave” and played one of the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Ethan is now following “in his father’s footsteps” and pursuing a career as a Wildland Firefighter.
And here is a PUBLIC post he made just a few hours ago, which is ‘visible’ on his PUBLIC Twitter feed right underneath that video he posted…
——————————————————————————
Twitter
ethan wheat thin (at) OddSinclair – June 5, 2018 – 8:45 PM
girls i have a question, when u get
wet does it feel like when ur mouth
waters when ur hungry and u smell
good food… but in ur pussy ?
—————————————————————————
Ah yes… another fine young man ready to take his place in society and represent wildland firefighting.
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> except this one
>> I can see now why they think the rules are hillbilly:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/_-9LKkSDVzE
Starts out like a ‘stripper video’ for a ‘girls night out’ party.
Doesn’t really improve.
AT +2:40… the firefighter in that ‘safety zone burnover’ has his sleeves rolled up.
wtktt- wow, you sure that video belongs to Alan’s kid-
You cannot make that shit up
that was just from the google search on current wildfires video section—I did not even click who made it just noticed the terrain looked like that 377 Fire and thought I would post the latest wildfire but yeah did not look at who it was…
geez. Small world. In a way feel bad I posted his stuff…I did not know…
h t tp s :/ /inciweb.nwcg.g o v/incident/5825/
and did you note on 2nd video how the man wears sunglasses—he probably did not want it forever noted he did it so hide out behind the glasses…that was nuts if they really play that in training classes…
Alan’s kid is young and alot of young kids talk like him—shoot I seen kids talk in elementary like that and I am left oh my
I just now saw the kid in video was bald so I would of never thought it was his kid…he had the best hair ever.
I am currently in a flush trying to reboot my hair growth…I am juicing apricots and green/yellow peppers and sweet potatoes and sunflower seeds raw not salted in juicer and broccoli/kale/spinach/cucumber with also 2 days fast of just PH10 alkaline water—
I so bad want my hair to grow superfast—
God Bless—A lady created a new look for me in April https://goo.gl/images/mjmvxK and I thought oh crap so I will go to my sis in law Sunday and hope she can revamp it to the one in left of this image: https://goo.gl/images/cKobzv 😉
https://youtu.be/SIHIsSJ2Txk
Australia baby
Be nice all fire industry vehicles had dash cams like W2spypoint cameras that could share gps location and time and weather
I need to say this, especially in light of the massive mistakes & human errors by firefighters countless times over the decades that never cease to frustrate & confuse when looking at their irrational actions after the fact:
Members of Logan hotshots Dropped their packs!!! They Abandoned their fucking truck!!! They did this in order to survive a bad situation. This is easier said than done.
Setting aside, for a moment, any judgment as to how they ended up in the position they were in, they made the right move under stress in order to live. For this part of what we know: Great job Logan!!!!!
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on June 3, 2018 at 5:15 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I need to say this, especially in light of the massive
>> mistakes & human errors by firefighters countless times
>> over the decades that never cease to frustrate & confuse
>> when looking at their irrational actions after the fact:
>>
>> Members of Logan hotshots Dropped their packs!!!
>> They Abandoned their fucking truck!!!
>> They did this in order to survive a bad situation.
>> This is easier said than done.
>>
>> Setting aside, for a moment, any judgment as to how they
>> ended up in the position they were in, they made the right
>> move under stress in order to live.
>>
>> For this part of what we know: Great job Logan!!!!!
I agree… and I hope one of the ‘Facilitated Lessons’ that comes out of this is…
“NEVER be hesitant to DROP PACKS and RUN LIKE HELL!!”.
There is still a chance that if Granite Mountain had been more drilled in “Drop Packs and Run” versus “Make a stand with the potato bakers”… SOME ( maybe ALL? ) of those men MIGHT have lived on June 30, 2013.
Just the time they must have spent FINDING that ( way TOO SMALL ) deployment area… and then the time they spent trying to ‘prepare’ it ( to no good end ) might have been just enough TIME for them to have actually made it to that ‘draw’ that was just ahead of them ( only about 200 yards ) and then on and out AWAY from the fireline to the SOUTH and the safety of the Candy Cane Lane area.
That scenario still remains a possibility… but they would have had to decide to try it IMMEDIATELY and INSTINCTIVELY… with not even seconds to lose.
Speaking of IMMEDIATELY… there is evidence that those two Logan Hotshots who got stuck also had absolutely ‘no time to lose’ making that decision to abandon that truck.
Look at the first of the 5 photos of the ‘stuck truck’ that were circulated with the initial FLA 24-Hour report.
It’s the first photo in this ‘video’ that contains all 5 photos…
https://youtu.be/u1zbshm9BXI
That first photo is a ‘head on’ shot of the stuck Ford F-350.
Pause the video on that first photo… and then look at the size of the combination deer-chucker and industrial-size WINCH installed on the front of that puppy.
The focus is good enough to also see clearly that there was a LOT of cable ‘ready to go’ there in that winch casing. Maybe a HUNDRED feet ( or more ).
And not the crappy 1/4 inch kind, either. We’re talkin’ 3/8 inch, at least… maybye 1/2 inch steel cable.
Also take note of that huge ‘metal bar’ strapped across the deer-chucker and above that big winch, partially obscuring the ‘Ford’ medallion on the front of the truck.
That is a HUGE JACK and PIPE HANDLE strapped in there and stretching all the way from headlight to headlight. Easily a 3 foot load raise achievable when in-use.
So they had plenty of ‘options’ for getting that puppy ‘unstuck’ themselves.
The other photos show there WERE some hefty ‘trees’ available there that they might have been able to attach the winch to… either in FRONT or BEHIND the truck. The way the thing was stuck… all they might have to do was go for a tree towards the BACK of the truck and do a ‘sidewinder’ pull with the winch. That might have at least been able to pull the front end off that shoulder hangup and back onto level road.
OR… they could have used that big-ass jack handle to set their own ANCHOR in the road for the winch. They could have pounded it down at a good angle deep into the roadbed with the jack itself and just attached the winch to that.
OR… with the size of that jack… they could have probably done a standard ‘pump and dump’ and raised the front end off that embankment and then just ‘pushed’ the truck OFF the jack and let it ‘fall’ back onto level road, clear of the embankment.
But none of that matters.
It was obviously all about TIME… and the lack, thereof.
Sure… they had these ‘options’ to save that expensive truck themselves… but it speaks to the deep tapioca they must have been in to realize they had to make the decision to abandon it without even trying any of their ‘options’.
They must have driven right up to where it already wasn’t safe, then got stuck… and there was then NO TIME to even consider doing anything about it.
So yea… thank God they didn’t pull a ‘Granite Mountain’ and just look at that area and decide… “We’ll just make a stand right here. Everything will be fine.”
I’m as glad as I can be that no one back in Logan, Utah is having to rent the nearest Toyota Center, at this point.
That being said… what I still don’t get is the situation with the Logan Hotshot’s LOOKOUT.
Once again… here is all we are being ‘allowed’ to know as per the FLA 72-Hour report…
————————————————————————————————-
Meanwhile, the crew lookout was forced to flee from the lookout position by the same advance of the fire. Given the fire behavior, the lookout did not feel it was possible to outpace the fire and make it back to the vehicles, so instead moved down and away from the fire. The lookout dropped their pack, but kept the fire shelter, a tool, and radio. At some point during the escape, the lookout realized that the antennae was no longer attached to the radio and there was no way to communicate with the crew or other resources.
After moving a considerable distance down a drainage, the lookout found a grassy spot that appeared suitable to deploy a shelter, and began the fuels in the area. Before deployment was necessary, aerial resources located the lookout, who was picked up and flown back to the parking area to rejoin the crew.
—————————————————————————————————
Key phrase…
“At some point during the escape, the lookout realized that the antennae was no longer attached to the radio and there was no way to communicate with the crew or other resources.”
Full stop.
“…At SOME POINT during the escape…”.
Huh?
We are supposed to believe that ‘the lookout’ did all of the following…
1. Forced to FLEE from his position because of the fire advance.
2. Decide it wasn’t possible to make it back to the other Logan vehicles.
3. Moved DOWN and AWAY from the fire ( How far? For how LONG? )
4. Decides to drop his pack but keep his shelter, a tool, and his radio.
…but only after having done ALL of these things does he now find out his antenna was broken and he can’t make a radio call?
Something is deeply troubling about THAT ‘scenario’.
That means that this ‘lookout’ made absolutely no attempt to contact anyone even at ‘Step number ONE’ above ( Forced to FLEE from his position because of the fire advance ).
The guy is ABANDONING his lookout position… and doesn’t even try right then and there to CALL anyone?
Only LATER… after ( supposedly ) doing all those other things the FLA describes… does he discover he actually CAN’T make a radio call?
WTF?
What is the “SOME POINT” they are referring to?
Are we supposed to believe the guy doesn’t even REMEMBER when he found out he couldn’t use his radio… or something?
Obviously more information needed here.
WTKTT,
“NEVER be hesitant to DROP PACKS and RUN LIKE HELL!!”. would be a great recommendation for when WFs do not recognize, heed, and mitigate the Watch Out Situations that told them to bug out long before that.
Up until April 1990, the Ten Standard Fire Orders included only Escape Route (F/O #4) and did NOT include Safety Zone.
There is an obscure April 1980 report titled: “Preliminary Report of Task Force on study of Fatal / Near-Fatal Wildland Fire Accidents” that supports this. This is included in the WFLLC Incident Reviews site for the 1977 Cart Creek Fatality Fire Investigation Report in the Staff Ride Information Sources.
On page 32 of this report it lists the “Present Ten Standard Firefighting Orders” and low and behold, ONLY Escape Routes are listed (“Have ESCAPE ROUTES for everyone and make them known”)
This report, by the way, is well worth researching because you can infer a lot of leadership, group dynamics, human factors, decision making, situational awareness, and more factors that occurred and resulted in the numerous fatalities.
There were several small groups of WFs with varying degrees of experience and supervision in several different areas of the fire performing various task. Ultimately, there were several fatalities in at least three separate areas of the fire.
You are more correct than you know. “There is still a chance that if Granite Mountain had been more drilled in “Drop Packs and Run” versus “Make a stand with the potato bakers”… SOME ( maybe ALL? ) of those men MIGHT have lived on June 30, 2013.”
I totally agree with this. Several years ago I came across an article that cited research which concluded something to the effect of: ‘60% of the American population can RUN a MILE at sea level on flat ground in UNDER 9 MINUTES.’ The GMHS was one of the fittest HS Crews in the SW.
They were approximately 580 yards from the BSR which about equals about 1740 feet which about equals 0.33 miles.
So then, that equates to approximately 3.07 minutes.
Unbelievably, the GMHS spent 2-3 minutes using chainsaws to CUT a Deployment Zone in chaparral instead of escaping, i.e. RUNNING to the BSR.
I believe the GMHS’ faulty choice to do this was based on them working on the 2012 Holloway Fire in NV and OR where a Zuni HS “filler” who got separated from her Crew, deployed her fire shelter in chaparral very similar in size and density to the YH Fire BSR Deployment Site, with only minor 2nd degree burns.
The chaparral similarities is based on several photos in the Investigation Report. In addition, the SW HS Crews present were duly impressed enough to mention that where she deployed in the chaparral, she should have been more severely burned and / or dead based on the fire behavior that burned over her.
“Just the time they must have spent FINDING that ( way TOO SMALL ) deployment area… and then the time they spent trying to ‘prepare’ it ( to no good end ) might have been just enough TIME for them to have actually made it to that ‘draw’ that was just ahead of them ( only about 200 yards ) and then on and out AWAY from the fireline to the SOUTH and the safety of the Candy Cane Lane area.”
“That scenario still remains a possibility… but they would have had to decide to try it IMMEDIATELY and INSTINCTIVELY… with not even seconds to lose.”
Some would disagree call this “Hindsight Bias, however I would call it a professional opinion based on conversations with some of the SW HS that were there in 2012, and the empirical evidence examined in the 2012 report.
And it fits that people tend to resort to those things most familiar to them under stress. So then, why go any further when you find a location similar to the successful Zuni HS Holloway Fire Deployment Site. Our shelters have worked, so why not here, we don’t need to make it to a Safety Zone. That is the trouble with the whole Deployment Zone concept.
The critical difference on June 30, 2013 was that the YH Fire FIRELINE INTENSITY was significantly more explosive than the 2012 Holloway Fire.
So much for my first attempt at text.
Had the GMHS chosen the RUN option, they could have used the BSR buildings as heat shields. And they still likely would have had to deploy fire shelters behind the buildings and /or closer to the BSR, but in considerably less dense chaparral.
Myself and other WFs think one of the bizarre things about the 24-Hour report is the fact that they allowed the photos of the HS Supt. truck with their name plastered on it for the world to see.
Normally, the FLA, APA. RLA, CraP, and other alphabet Review teams are very careful about using general terms, like Hot Shot Crew, DIVS, etc. rather than specific names.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
June 4, 2018 at 9:03 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Myself and other WFs think one of the bizarre things
>> about the 24-Hour report is the fact that they allowed
>> the photos of the HS Supt. truck with their name
>> plastered on it for the world to see.
When the Hotchkiss Fire District folks first posted those two “out of the gates of hell” videos on their public Facebook page… it was obvious that the Hotshot Crew Carriers at that location belonged to the LOGAN Hotshots. Their name was clearly readable on the sides of the carriers with no ‘frame enhancement’ necessary.
Then Bill Gabbert immediately posted the same videos on his Wildfire Today site.
Interestingly enough, though, I have tried MULTIPLE TIMES to post a ‘comment’ at Wildfire Today with a link to the additional photos that were circulated along with the FLA 24-Hour report… but Bill Gabbert REFUSES to publish those comments on his ‘Wildfire Today’ site.
So Gabbert thought it was AOK to be one of the first to publish those Hotchkiss FD videos ( clearly showing the name LOGAN Hotshots on the vehicles )… but now he refuses to acknowledge the other 5 photos of the stuck Logan Superintendent Truck and share THOSE with his ‘readership’.
Go figure.
If Gabbeert is so overly concerned about anyone finding out it was the Logan Hotshots involved in the Horse Park incidents…. then he should have never published the Hotchkiss FD videos in the first place… or he should now REMOVE them from his Horse Park Fire articles.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Normally, the FLA, APA. RLA, CraP, and other alphabet
>> Review teams are very careful about using general
>> terms, like Hot Shot Crew, DIVS, etc. rather than
>> specific names.
I wonder if anyone at Hotchkiss FD has been ‘disciplined’ for actually publishing those two “out of the gates of hell” videos in the first place?
I’m sure that the ‘always-secretive’ USFS must have been pissed when those showed up on Facebook.
Nothing pisses USFS more than ‘losing control of the available evidence’. It always short-circuits their ability to ‘control the narrative’.
Followup…
** KEEPING THE LID ON THE HOTCHKISS FD VIDEOS
The two “out of the gates of hell” videos are still there on the Hotchkiss Fire District public Facebook page… but a comment made there yesterday shows they seem to have now been told to ‘punt’ all requests to publish the videos back to the Horse Park Fire management team.
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 4:45 PM… news station 9NEWS in Denver made the following request right there on one of the Hotchkiss Fire District’s “out of the gates of hell” videos on their public Facebook page…
—————————————————————-
Kevin Massey – Sunday, June 3, 2018 – 4:45 PM
Hello – I’m with 9NEWS in Denver, wondering if we could get permission to use your videos from this fire with credit to Hotchkiss Fire District for use on TV and on our web site? Also, did you all take the photo of the burned out vehicle seen on Wildfire Today?
——————————————————————
3 minutes later, whoever runs that Hotchkiss Fire District public Facebook page responded… but ‘punted’ the reporter’s request over to the ‘on the site Management team’ for the Horse Park Fire.
—————————————————————
Hotchkiss Fire District – Sunday, June 3, 2018 – 4:48 PM
Please contact on the site Management team for photo or video use. Our people have not been at the Horse Park Fire for several days now.
—————————————————————–
NOTICE, also, that the reporter is fully aware of Bill Gabbert’s Wildfire Today site… and that he published the photo of the ‘stuck truck’ that was included in the FLA report… but the reporter is UNAWARE of the other FIVE photos of the ‘stuck truck’ that were circulated with the 24-Hour report because Bill Gabbert still refuses to post a link to THOSE photos.
This Hotchkiss FD Horse Park Fire (17 second) video titled: “Second half of a DC10 load, dropped on the Horse Park … May 28” reveals a radio transmission at about the 13 second mark from possibly an Engine to the “IC Trainee.”
It was pretty scratchy and hard to make out but it sounded like an Engine 6 something or other, then it stopped
https://www.facebook.com/HotchkissFire/videos/10156211911473070/
Here is what I am hearing starting at the +13 second mark in that video… and during the final 4 seconds…
+0:13
Voice 1 says: “IC in training”
+0:15
Voice 2 says: “I didn’t receive that”
VIDEO ENDS
Reposting this without any attempts to bold anything
“NEVER be hesitant to DROP PACKS and RUN LIKE HELL!!”.
Up until April 1990, the Ten Standard Fire Orders included only Escape Route (F/O #4) and did NOT include Safety Zone.
There is an obscure April 1980 report titled: “Preliminary Report of Task Force on study of Fatal / Near-Fatal Wildland Fire Accidents” that supports this. This is included in the WFLLC Incident Reviews site for the 1977 Cart Creek Fatality Fire Investigation Report in the Staff Ride Information Sources.
On page 32 of this report it lists the “Present Ten Standard Firefighting Orders” and low and behold, ONLY Escape Routes are listed (“Have ESCAPE ROUTES for everyone and make them known”)
This report, by the way, is well worth researching because you can infer a lot of leadership, group dynamics, human factors, decision making, situational awareness, and more factors that occurred and resulted in the numerous fatalities.
There were several small groups of WFs with varying degrees of experience and supervision in several different areas of the fire performing various task. Ultimately, there were several fatalities in at least three separate areas of the fire.
You are more correct than you know. “There is still a chance that if Granite Mountain had been more drilled in “Drop Packs and Run” versus “Make a stand with the potato bakers”… SOME ( maybe ALL? ) of those men MIGHT have lived on June 30, 2013.”
I totally agree with this. Several years ago I came across an article that cited research which concluded something to the effect of: ‘60% of the American population can RUN a MILE at sea level on flat ground in UNDER 9 MINUTES.’ The GMHS was one of the fittest HS Crews in the SW.
They were approximately 580 yards from the BSR which about equals about 1740 feet which about equals 0.33 miles.
So then, that equates to approximately 3.07 minutes.
Unbelievably, the GMHS spent 2-3 minutes using chainsaws to CUT a Deployment Zone in chaparral instead of escaping, i.e. RUNNING to the BSR.
I believe the GMHS’ faulty choice to do this was based on them working on the 2012 Holloway Fire in NV and OR where a Zuni HS “filler” who got separated from her Crew, deployed her fire shelter in chaparral very similar in size and density to the YH Fire BSR Deployment Site, with only minor 2nd degree burns.
The chaparral similarities is based on several photos in the Investigation Report. In addition, the SW HS Crews present were duly impressed enough to mention that where she deployed in the chaparral, she should have been more severely burned and / or dead based on the fire behavior that burned over her.
“Just the time they must have spent FINDING that ( way TOO SMALL ) deployment area… and then the time they spent trying to ‘prepare’ it ( to no good end ) might have been just enough TIME for them to have actually made it to that ‘draw’ that was just ahead of them ( only about 200 yards ) and then on and out AWAY from the fireline to the SOUTH and the safety of the Candy Cane Lane area.”
“That scenario still remains a possibility… but they would have had to decide to try it IMMEDIATELY and INSTINCTIVELY… with not even seconds to lose.”
Some would disagree call this “Hindsight Bias, however I would call it a professional opinion based on conversations with some of the SW HS that were there in 2012, and the empirical evidence examined in the 2012 report.
And it fits that people tend to resort to those things most familiar to them under stress. So then, why go any further when you find a location similar to the successful Zuni HS Holloway Fire Deployment Site. Our shelters have worked, so why not here, we don’t need to make it to a Safety Zone. That is the trouble with the whole Deployment Zone concept.
The critical difference on June 30, 2013 was that the YH Fire FIRELINE INTENSITY was significantly more explosive than the 2012 Holloway Fire.
7th attempt to post:
I was under the impression it was one person who dropped their pack yet you pluralized in your comment stating members, so is there a place online or another method you learned it was more than one?
I am just jumping in the topic of this specific fire…I have been doing other things lately so in a sense catching up this evening, about dropping packs- I thought that is how they are trained ….
I do not support the method of how they park the vehicle as they did because I think about worst case scenarios, so I would have parked the vehicle facing the Escape Route EXIT
positioning ready to leave to ensure it is ready for any scenario that was to arise
At the start when I got there is when I would HAVE made sure vehicle was ready to go.
To have the vehicle turn around like it did tells me someone was under stresses (for sure) and yeah I have seen vehicles like that many of times knowing Sonny as he drove those back roads and so I would need more data to make a proper assessment.
I have seen many high centered moments as well as quick sand times and barely hanging off a cliff and jack knifing a trailer and embankment moments just like in photo and each time I will not share the details but Sonny was not panicking he was Sonny…him and dirt and driving…might be something Gary could understand… (Moab)
Yet I in my way of thinking I do think someone is accountable because trucks do not just burn…
All this is beginning to tell me that the 10&18 and LCES and Watchout Situations are not being stressed seriously and that should be a main focus here.
Plus, in knowing Sonny and seeing so many styles of fires…how can one not know the fire that laid upon them or near or in front of them—how they cannot see it in some way or another—weather or not…the burn scars leaves clues… like a fire also brewing…then an almost incident…how come none has noticed how without the people there ( human factor ) then did anyone note no more fire, eh…
Yeah – seems odd FF there equal intense heat fire or should say some entity… FF off the fire line= fire out. I am still trying to figure that out. ???
I am all for fighting fires with fire but as I always said get these no experience local yocal small town FD who newly got a red card out of there- they do not belong with a drip torch…or these punk kids grown up who have no respect for the rules and safety matters plus any rain yet…???…it is dry as hell so I would watch who the industry allows to use a drip torch in these conditions…emhmmm…
But then again after reviewing records and listening to FFs, some on the GMHS also had a pattern of risky moments just blows me away, and I hate to say it because they are the facts as I know them.
If you sit down and unravel YHF in its purest form you will see the very folks who were there fighting the fire and there were many errors….They are now training these current FFs at the fire schools, so maybe they are being trained the RULES are hillbilly after all.
You will not find me saying Congrats, Woodsman…sorry
Just not enough data to properly assess
Thank the good Lord they were blessed that day but I do not like the fact they disregarded the rules…
So, I will say to them—your experience is unique to you—I can understand the shock you’re feeling though I haven’t experienced what you went through and this should make you aware that life is fragile and that one moment you’re here and the next you can be gone. This is your wakeup call and be right and share exactly as it went down so lessons can be learned not concealed…ok…if stress was panic mode for you then come see me and I will hook you up with someone who will help you with that or look Above…do not feel just because of this incident you will make a future expert until you realize the moment because too many times patterns happen…cough cough…I can drop names but I won’t but just to let you in…they are sadly are not able to be here to talk about it…cough cough…some of the GMHS crew
Side note:
*You are about to be entrapped or burned over by a wildfire: What are your survival options? by M.E. Alexander
http://ucanr.edu/sites/postfire/files/248532.pdf
Decision Workshop
Improving Wildland Firefighter Performance Under Stressful, Risky Conditions: Toward Better Decisions on the Fireline
and More Resilient Organizations
June 12–16, 1995
Village Red Lion Inn
100 Madison Street
Missoula, Montana
https://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf95512855/pdf95512855pt04.pdf
“They would have been able to move 15-20% faster (Putnam, 1994) without their packs and tools .”
“Virtually all the escaping firefighters carried their tools and packs even though it cost many of them their lives” (Putnam, 1994)
“Some 23 firefighters have perished trying to escape uphill carrying packs and equipment. Estimates show most would have lived had they simply dropped their gear and run for safety carrying only fire shelters.”
Putnam, Ted. 1994. Analysis of Escape Efforts and Personal Protective Equipment on the South Canyon Fire.
Missoula, MT: USDA Forest Service, Missoula Technology and Development Center
“Among the elements that led to this breakdown are physical and mental fatigue, recognition gaps, weather information not communicated or used, safety concerns not communicated, concerns about who was in charge (leadership) and the numerous
compromises of the SFOs and WOSs. When the blow-up occurred, these came together with deadly results. The attitudes also blocked the last escape path—dropping tools and packs, bugging out, and using shelters.”
South Canyon Fire Investigation of the14 fatalities that occurred on July 6,1994 near Glenwood Springs, Colorado
“Carrying tools and packs significantly slowed escape efforts.” (p. 4 Equipment)
http://npshistory.com/publications/fire/south-canyon-fire-investigation.pdf*
**
** HORSE PARK FIRE INCIDENT – 72 HOUR REPORT IS NOW OUT.
Here is the new web page at the ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center’ ( WFLLC ) dedicated to the near-tragic May 28, 2018 Incident at the Horse Park Fire involving the Logan Hotshot Crew…
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=76bb3659-8026-4151-9dce-8b492a36b264
The initial 24-Hour report is there along with the just-released 72-Hour Incident Report.
The 72-Hour report has a LOT more detail… and this was really a mess.
Turns out that everything RTS initially heard about the indicent turns out to be TRUE.
The Logan Hotshot Superintendent really did get his truck stuck well into that deep canyon and he and another WF had to flee to safety on foot. It was more than half a mile back to that ‘gate’ where the Logan Crew Carriers were staged.
There also really was a ‘lookout’ who they lost contact with and thought he was DEAD.
His radio antenna did break… and now we also learn that he had already initiated his own ‘area burnout’ in order to deploy his shelter before he was actually rescued.
From the 72-Hour report ( they still won’t admit it was the Logan Hotshot Crew )…
——————————————————————————————————–
“Two crew members were scouting a road for a potential burnout operation when their truck became stuck. They were unable to free the truck before the fire began to overtake them. The crewmembers made the decision to abandon the truck and take their gear with them.
They fled back down the road and away from the fire. One crew member ran ahead and made it safely back to the other vehicles. The other crew member dropped his pack, keeping his fire shelter and radio with him. An additional crew member came up the road on a UTV to help him escape. The pair drove to the parking area where the other crew members were waiting in the vehicles.
SIDENOTE: This is the ‘rescue’ we are actually seeing in those two videos that were posted by FFs working for the Hotchkiss Fire District. The videos clearly show that Logan IHC UTV coming ‘out of the gates of hell’ and now we know it was one of the crew members who had to flee the stuck truck 1/2 mile down that road in the canyon.
“Meanwhile, the crew lookout was forced to flee from the lookout position by the same advance of the fire. Given the fire behavior, the lookout did not feel it was possible to outpace the fire and make it back to the vehicles, so instead moved down and away from the fire. The lookout dropped their pack, but kept the fire shelter, a tool, and radio. At some point during the escape, the lookout realized that the antennae was no longer attached to the radio and there was no way to communicate with the crew or other resources.
After moving a considerable distance down a drainage, the lookout found a grassy spot that appeared suitable to deploy a shelter, and began lighting the fuels in the area. Before deployment was necessary, aerial resources located the lookout, who was picked up and flown back to the parking area to rejoin the crew.
“There were no injuries as a result of this incident. An Interagency FLA team, is in place and reviewing the incident.”
———————————————————————————————————
There are ‘new’ photographs included in the 72-Hour report.
One is a ‘wider view’ of the ‘stuck’ Logan Hotshots Superintendent’s Truck.
Another is a closeup of one of the abandoned Logan Hotshot field packs completely burned up ( but, oddly enough, the pink flagging tape didn’t even melt ).
The FIVE PHOTOS that were originally circulated with the 24-Hour report are still available for viewing at the following link…
https://youtu.be/u1zbshm9BXI
Among other bizarre things in the 72-Hour report… there is this…
Keep in mind that the report says there were NO INJURIES as a result of this, either before or after the Logan Hotshot Superintendent got his truck stuck out in that canyon…
—————————————————————————————————–
The crewmembers made the decision to abandon the truck and take their gear with them. They fled back down the road and away from the fire. One crew member ran ahead and made it safely back to the other vehicles. The other crew member dropped his pack, keeping his fire shelter and radio with him. An additional crew member came up the road on a UTV to help him escape. The pair drove to the parking area where the other crew members were waiting in the vehicles.
—————————————————————————————————–
So let me see if I am reading this correctly…
These two ( Logan ) Hotshots, who are supposed to be in super-duper physical shape, had to high-tail it down that road and away from the truck… but only ONE of them was able to successfully cover the 1/2 mile distance to safety and ‘make it out on foot’?
The other one then had to be ‘rescued’ with a motorized UTV because he couldn’t run as fast as the first guy?
And the one guy was so SURE he couldn’t ‘cover the same ground’ that he let the other guy go ahead and then he took the time to drop his pack and was also preparing to ‘deploy’ rather than just keep running?
Remember… the report says there were NO INJURIES.
So why couldn’t that other WF cover the same ground at the same rate as the first one… and ended up needing another firefighter to risk HIS life to ‘come and get him’?
Did someone ‘fudge’ the ‘certification’ for this other WF and he really shouldn’t have been out there in the first place?
All that being said… it’s nice to hear that at least those two firefighters didn’t decide to pull a ‘Granite Mountain’ and make a ‘stand’ with their fire shelters out in THIS ‘box canyon’.
At least ( thank God ) they KNEW their best chance was to just “Run like HELL!”.
Wtktt said
then on and out AWAY from the fireline to the SOUTH and the safety of the Candy Cane Lane area.
Reply:
If they went on the 2 track path never dropping down I can show you where SMOKE WAS NOT THAT DAY and helicopter could have picked them up…but they dropped down and even dropping down Sonny told Dr Ted Putnam if they went southeast to the boulders aiming towards Candy Cane Lane/NUHART LLC vs taking time to dig out in a dense area filled with much datura plant…yeah 🏃 RUN 🏃 south…uet can the person ALJVE please step up and explain to Wtktt why that part was not an option…oh and while we are at it…air to ground still waiting on my public records and foias…I have remembered you…never forgotten…3 ring binder baby….xoxo
For whatever it may be worth, if I was in a position where I had to run like hell to survive & I had another crew member with me doing the same…if I was the slower one & every second counted, I would order the other to save himself & let the chips fall where they may. So, it might not be a matter of an out-out-shape hotshot but merely a case where there is a performance difference between the 2. Now if I was the faster one? Oh boy, I’d like to think I would never leave someone. These situations are seldom simplified looking at it from the outside.,.& I’m in “the business.”
That might be how it went down… not one firefighter ( the Superintendent himself? ) being so ‘out of shape’ that he couldn’t cover that half-mile at good enough speed ( or windage ) to make it out… but that the other firefighter ( the passenger? ) was a no-shit track star.
But for the sake of ‘Facilitated Learning’… it is important to KNOW the details there.
If it ends up being a ‘totally out of shape’ scenario on the part of the WF who couldn’t make it out on foot ( while the other one could )… you are now looking at some serious training/certification issues.
Who knows… maybe it’s time to implement ( in addition to the long-distance pack test ) a “1/2 mile flat-out RUN test”.
If you don’t meet a certain minimum standard there ( for the SPRINT test )… you really shouldn’t be out with a Type 1 Crew.
I am just really grateful it all worked out.
If that ( faster ) WF hadn’t been able to make it out on foot and TELL the others what had happened and that the other ( slower ) one needed a rescue… then there would still be someone trying to rent a Toyota Center back in Logan, Idaho.
Actually… there’s another detail that’s still missing.
How did the Logan Hotshot with the UTV get INFORMED that one of the WFs from the stuck-truck was NOT going to be able to physically make it out… like the the other one could?
Radio call?… or did he really only ‘get that news’ when the other one DID make it out and TOLD him what was happening back in that canyon?
Did either of the WFs that had to “Run like HELL” away from that stuck truck even HAVE any handheld-radios with them… or were they both dependent on the one in the truck, which they were now running AWAY from?
Details matter when it comes to LEARNING from an incident.
* THE ORIGINAL HOTCHKISS FIRE DISTRICT VIDEOS SHOWING ‘THE RESCUE’…
Below is a link to the first of two videos of the Horse Park Fire ‘incident’ originally posted to the Hotchkiss Fire District’s public Facebook page.
In this first video, we see one of the Logan Hotshot’s 2 UTV’s emerge ‘from the gates of hell’ on the left side of the video with the driver and 1 passenger ( who, as the second video shows, no longer has his field pack on ). As soon as the UTV ’emerges’ from the raging fireline, one of the FFs in the foreground says “He GOT him!” and then the other FF holding the camera says “We gotta GO!” and stops filming.
https://www.facebook.com/HotchkissFire/videos/10156211890148070/
The next link below is to the second video of the same ‘incident’ posted to the Hotchkiss Fire District’s public Facebook page. It covers the same moments as the first ( shorter ) video, but continues until the Logan Hotshots’s UTV that emerged from “the gates of hell” reaches and passes the camera and is high-tailing it out of the area.
The ‘passenger’ in the UTV ( the one who was rescued from the canyon ) appears ‘dazed’ and/or ‘injured’. This probably explains why the driver of the UTV blew right past 2 other FFs that were on the road and also in harm’s way. He did NOT even try to stop and pick them up and left them there walking on the road.
The driver of the UTV appears ‘hell bent for leather’ as he approaches the camera trying to get his passenger out of the area. Another Logan Hotshot with a RED helmet tries to get him to stop near the crew carriers but the UTV driver just shouts something to him and keeps going. The RED helmeted WFF now runs after the UTV, still shouting for him to stop.
The UTV driver now slams on the brakes and the dazed and/or injured passenger lurches forward because he wasn’t expecting the UTV to hard-stop.
The RED helmeted WFF runs around the UTV and inserts himself into the front seat, pushing the passenger to the middle. The passenger still seems to have a ‘thousand yard stare’ and appears dazed. The UTV takes off again and now both firefighters on either side of him seem totally focused on the welfare of the passenger in the middle.
As the UTV passes the camera we can see that he no longer has his fire pack on and must have left it behind out on the road near the Logan Hotshots Superintendent’s truck that got stuck in the canyon.
This longer video is the one where we hear all the panicked firefighters just yelling at each other to ‘Stop fuckin’ around’ and ‘GO! GO! GO!’…
https://www.facebook.com/HotchkissFire/videos/10156211825818070/
** THE EXACT LOCATION OF THE VIDEOS / INCIDENT AT HORSE PARK FIRE…
The ‘FLA’ reports still refuse to say exactly where this incident happened… but from the 2 Hotchkiss videos ( above ) and the other photographs of the burned-up Logan Hotshots Superintendent’s truck it’s not hard to nail it down.
Both of the videos were shot looking almost DUE SOUTH at the following exact GPS ( decimal ) coordinates…
37.947896, -108.525359
You can either cut-and-paste the line above ( including the comma ) into the ‘Search’ bar for the online ‘Google Maps’ service… or you should be able to just click the link below.
In both cases, a ‘red balloon’ will appear at the exact spot where the Horse Park Fire videos were taken.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/37%C2%B056'52.4%22N+108%C2%B031'31.3%22W/@37.947896,-108.5275477,856m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d37.947896!4d-108.525359
It’s a spur road off of ‘CR K20’.
‘CR K20’ intesects with ‘CR 28T’.
The fire is burning ‘out there’ on BLM land, but that ‘staging area’ in the foreground and the spot where both of the videos were shot ( from two different vehicles ) is actually on a ‘cut out’ of PRIVATE land adjacent to that BLM parcel.
There is a ‘gate’ and a ‘fence’ there in the foreground in both videos, and this is the ‘property line’ between that slice of private land the the BLM parcel.
The fire is actually burning on this BLM parcel…
Colorado Township 43N, Range 15W, Section 33…
The ‘slice’ in the upper right side of that section where the two videos were being taken and the ( fence/gate are seen ) is listed as being owned by…
—————————————————————-
BASIN LAND AND LIVESTOCK FAMILY LP
Property Address ( if assigned ):
NORWOOD
Parcel ID 455322400013
Tax ID R2050099004
Tax District 212
—————————————————————–
** LOCATION OF LOGAN HOTSHOTS SUPT TRUCK BURNUP
Based on the photographs that were circulated along with the original Horse Park Fire 24-Hour Incident report… here is the exact location where the Logan Hotshots Superintendent’s Truck got ‘stuck’ and burned up….
It was 1/2 mile ( 0.54 mile ) in on that road from the ‘gate’ where the Logan Hotshot Crew Carriers were parked and both Hotchkiss videos were taken.
37.941028, -108.522653
Again… you can either just ‘cut-and-paste’ the line above ( including the comma ) into the search bar of ‘Google Maps’… or you can just click the link below.
In both cases… a ‘RED Balloon’ will appear at the exact spot the Logan Hotshots’s Superintendent Truck burned up.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/37%C2%B056'27.7%22N+108%C2%B031'21.6%22W/@37.9407865,-108.5274605,1669m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d37.941028!4d-108.522653
For reference… 1/2 mile equals…
2640 feet
880 yards
Just shy of 9 football fields.
There is still not enough information available to know exactly where this Logan Hotshot ‘Lookout’ was… or where he set his own ‘area burnout’ fire in preparation for deploying his fire shelter.
Forgot to mention…
In that first ( of two ) videos of the ‘rescue’ posted on the Hotchkiss Fire District Facebook page ( and then linked to by Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today )… you can CLEARLY see the word ‘LOGAN’ on the side of the Hotshot Crew Carriers staged near that tree…
No photo enhancement necessary.
It is clearly readable just by watching the video.
https://www.facebook.com/HotchkissFire/videos/10156211890148070/
So it was clear that this incident involved the ‘Logan Hotshots’ even before the photos came out accompanying the 24-Hour report which also clearly identified the burned-up truck as the Logan Hotshots Superintendent’s Truck.
**
** THE STILL PHOTO TAKEN JUST 90 MINUTES BEFORE THE HORSE PARK FIRE
** ‘INCIDENTS’ INVOLVING THE LOGAN HOTSHOTS.
**
** TAKEN FROM THE SAME LOCATION AS THE TWO ‘RESCUE’ VIDEOS.
Just 90 minutes before those 2 ‘rescue’ videos were taken at the Horse Park Fire and we see the Logan Hotshots and the other Hotchkiss Fire District FFs ‘running for their lives’… someone uploaded a ‘still’ photograph to the same ‘Hotchkiss Fire District’ Facebook page where the videos would appear… and it was taken at the same location as the videos.
Facebook Account: Hotchkiss Fire District – PUBLIC page
Facebook Account Folder: MOBILE uploads
https://www.facebook.com/HotchkissFire/photos/a.424393623069.198981.72335213069/10156209176218070/?type=3&theater
Originally uploaded to their Facebook ‘MOBILE Uploads’ folder at 3:40 PM on Sunday, May 27, 2018 ( just 90 minutes before the incidents took place with the Logan Hotshots at that same general location ).
Original comment that accompanied this photo upload to Facebook…
—————————————————————————————————
Horse Park Fire and West Region Wildfire Task Force 1. Now, San Miguel County. HFD Engine 4 is serving as a lookout tower.
—————————————————————————————————-
Since this was a ‘Mobile Upload’ of a photo to Facebook… it is HIGHLY likely that it was automatically ‘sent’ up to Facebook just moments after it was taken on the photo-taker’s smartphone… and the ‘Upload’ timestamp represents ( within a few seconds ) the time the photo was actually taken.
According to both the 24 and 72 hour FLA reports released so far, the ‘incidents’ ( plural ) with the Logan Hotshots took place at approximately 1710 on the same day this Facebook photo was taken… Sunday, May 27, 2018.
1710 is 5:10 PM.
So that means this ‘still’ photo taken from the same place as the videos was taken just 1 hour and 30 minutes before the two ‘rescue in progress’ videos.
Looking at this photo and the location of the smoke column ( over the ridge ), and then comparing it to what is seen ( at this same location ) just 90 minutes later in the two ‘rescue’ videos suggests that the intense fire seen in the videos was NOT just the simple result of a ‘natural’ progression of the fire.
It actually seems more likely now that the intense fire seen in the videos was, in reality, the end result of a ‘manual burnout operation gone bad’ on the part of the Logan Hotshots themselves.
In this photo ( taken just 90 minutes before the ‘rescue videos’ ), the Logan Hotshots Superintendent’s Truck ( A Yellow Ford F-350 ) is seen on the left of the photo ‘peeking out’ from behind one of the blue-green Logan Hotshot Crew Carriers over there by that tree. The Logan Hotshot’s TWO UTVs are also seen there to the left of the front of that soon-to-be-burned-up Yellow Ford F-350.
All the firefighers in the foreground in this photo are just ‘relaxing’ and still figuring out ‘what to do’ about the fire ( if anything ).
Notice the WF in the right foreground standing in-between the other two guys.
He is ‘pointing’ at the right side of a two-track road that runs UP the slope and is visible there in the center of the photo between the RED San Miguel County Engine ( with the two guys sitting on the roof of it ) and the cluster of Logan Hotshot vehicles on the left, around that ‘tree’. ( which is the same tree that will be seen in rescue videos just 90 minutes later ).
That guy ‘pointing’ might be the Logan Hotshots Crew Superintendent suggesting a ‘burnout’ of that entire slope along that two-track road.
In the ‘rescue’ videos, taken just 90 minutes later, that is EXACTLY where we see that intense ‘firestorm’ taking place… along the run of that two-track road that ascends up that slope.
So when we see the Logan Hotshots and the other Hotchkiss Fire District FFs ‘running for their lives’ and ‘fleeing’ this very area just 90 minutes later ( in the videos )… the firestorm in the videos might very well have been their own manual slope-burnout operation gone bad and almost killing 3 of them.
It’s possible.
Need to know more about what the Logan Hotshots were actually DOING between the time this photo was taken ( at 3:40 PM ) and the ‘rescue’ videos shot at this same location just 90 minutes later.
How do we really get from thjs “everybody standing around shooting the breeze” photo to everyone “running for their lives” just 90 minutes later?
Did the Logan Hotshots just continue to ‘stand around’ at that location… or did they actually start DOING something once this 3:40 PM ‘meeting’ finished?
If they did start DOING something circa 3:40 PM… exactly WHAT did they ‘start doiing’?
A burnout?
If so… WHERE?
WOW, ….looking at that photo I just have to say it, “She’ll be comin’ round the mountain when she comes, she’ll be comin’ round the mountain when she comes…….”
Having said that, I also have to say that this fire activity was most likely NOT the result of a burnout operation. On any burnout that includes available engines, most, if not all, of those engines would be ACTIVELY ENGAGED at, or very near, the burnout operation itself to guard against slop-overs. The video evidence shows no engines or (firing) crews fleeing the area (of a possible firing operation), and if they had just fled just prior to the video, they would have been ‘locked and loaded’ ON THE ROADWAY, preparing to continue to flee yet even further.
OK old school. Back in the 60s thru the 80s we had a special well trained Back Fireing team 3 in R5 on call. I was on 1 team. No Fire did a Back Fire with out a team. Only burnouts were aloud. Maybe this team needs to be reimplimented. There are several things that can go wrong with a backfire if you are not fully trained.
That makes all kinds of sense.
Putting ‘fire on the ground’ at ANY time requires all KINDS of ‘training’ and ‘experience’. There is so much to know… .and so many things that could go wrong.
It’s amazing to me how many stories emerge of FFs and WFFs with just some limited ‘fire behavior’ training are allowed to have drip torches in their hands and be ‘lighting shit up’ all the time.
TTWARE,
According to WFs that were on that fire, the IA IC told the HS Crew that the fire had crossed the road they scouted and therefore the planned firing operation was no longer valid.
According to these same WFs, the HS more-or-less told him they considered otherwise …
It is a fair assumption that Engines would have been staged along the road. And it is also fair to assume that they recognized and heeded the obvious, ubiquitous Watch Out Situations and bailed out of there once it was time too disengage early, in a timely and orderly fashion.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on June 3, 2018 at 2:40 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> According to WFs that were on that fire, the IA IC told
>> the HS Crew that the fire had crossed the road they
>> scouted and therefore the planned firing operation
>> was no longer valid.
Any word on exactly WHERE this ‘planned firing operation’ was supposed to take place?… and/or… where the ‘lookout’ actually was placed?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> According to these same WFs, the HS more-or-less told
>> him they considered otherwise …
Sounds like the ‘A’ word ( ‘Arrogance’ ).
Also starts to sound eerily similar to Mormon Lake Hotshots, ‘Tony Czak’ and the Battlement Creek Fatality Incident.
Too ‘task oriented’ and obsessed with continuing a ‘burnout operation’ even after it was not safe to do so.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It is a fair assumption that Engines would have been
>> staged along the road. And it is also fair to assume
>> that they recognized and heeded the obvious,
>> ubiquitous Watch Out Situations and bailed out of
>> there once it was time too disengage early, in a
>> timely and orderly fashion.
‘Fair to assume’?
Sure… except for the 3 people who almost burned to death… and possibly a fourth ( the UTV driver who might have never come back out of there once he decided to go in ).
Other than that… sure… maybe everything was ‘timely and orderly’.
Exactly. And you sure don’t see any Engines bailing out of there ‘running for their lives’ and ‘fleeing. You only see WFs on UTVs or on foot.
We will have to wait patiently for a year or so to read the FLA Team report …
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) on
June 3, 2018 at 3:42 pm
I thought we were on the same page there, for a moment, but then you said this…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> And you sure don’t see any Engines bailing out
>> of there ‘running for their lives’ and ‘fleeing.
The hell you don’t.
Have you actually watched the 2 videos?
BOTH of them were shot from San Miguel County ‘Engines’ being manned by personnel from the Hotchkiss Fire District.
In BOTH of the videos… those ‘Engines’ end up ‘fleeing the scene’ like bats out of hell… and the audio parts of both videos prove those FFs were ‘scared’ as the ‘fled’.
In the shorter video… the MOMENT that Logan UTV emerges from the gates of hell and it is obvious he had ‘picked up’ the trapped Logan Hotshot… one firefighter yells “He GOT him!” and then the camera operator says ( loudly ) “We gotta GO!!” and literally JUMPS into the driver’s seat and tears away from the scene.
He tears out of there so fast that when the second video pans towards the right ( where the first video was shot )… that other Engine is so far gone already you can’t even see it down the road. All you see is that Egnine’s ‘dust’ from hauling ass out of there.
In the longer video… that was a DASHCAM on that larger San Miguel Engine and it was the Hotchkiss Fire District Chief in the driver’s seat.
The MOMENT the UTV that had emerged from the gates of hell passes the Chief… he throws that puppy in Drive and moves out right behind it… tearing down that two-track.
It is the other firefighter in that Engine who then says, a few moments later and a few hundred yards down the road. ( with relief in his voice )…
“We’re SAFE now”.
Meaning… they were NOT safe back there at that fence and gate while waiting to see if the Logan UTV driver came back out alive.
When that second video was posted to the Hotchkiss Fire District Facebook page… it had this ‘comment’ posted with it…
——————————————————————
From the Chief’s dash cam at the Horse Park Fire, May 27th.
Warning, there is some profanity. ( Please excuse the language
of one of our younger firefighters, we’re not bleeping it out
to relay the seriousness of the moment )
——————————————————————-
Key phrase: “…we’re not bleeping it out
to relay the SERIOUSNESS of the moment.”
He is referring to the moment in the video when one of his men shouted “STOP FUCKIN’ AROUND!!” at the Logan Hotshots.
In his own words… the decision to leave it in the audio was so that the SERIOUSNESS of the situation would be retained for anyone watching the video.
So yea… those ‘Engine Crews’ were scared… and then ‘ran for their lives’ as soon as that Logan UTV came back out of the gates of hell.
RTS said according to the IC, the fire crossed the proposed control line road effectively taking ground ignition off the table….and Logan thought otherwise. Hmmm.
I’ll just say this (& disagree with TTWARE) that’s an awfully straight wall of fire “comin’ round’ that mountain.” Nome sayin’? There’s your daily freebee. You’re welcome.
Reply to Woodsman post on
June 3, 2018 at 4:59 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> RTS said according to the IC, the fire
>> crossed the proposed control line
>> road effectively taking ground ignition
>> off the table….and Logan thought
>> otherwise. Hmmm.
Hmmm is right.
If the Logan Hotshots were told not to go ahead with ignitions… and they did it anyway… I wonder if that part of the ‘story’ will ever see the light of day.
…because the only ‘Facilitated Learning’ that comes out of THAT little detail is that you can’t ever really trust Hotshots.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> that’s an awfully straight wall of fire
>> “comin’ round’ that mountain.”
>> Nome sayin’?
Yeppir. Copy that.
Is what we can see in the 5:40 PM videos REALLY just a 90 minute natural progression from what can be seen in the 3:40 PM photo… or did some folks take a stroll along that dry creek bed and ‘light it up’ during that 90 minute interval?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Typo above.
5:10 PM… not 5:40 PM.
Both FLA reports released so far say the ‘Incidents’ ( plural ) involving the Logan Hotshots took place circa 1710 ( 5:10 PM )… 90 minutes after that 3:40 PM photo was taken.
WTKTT,
“I thought we were on the same page there, for a moment, but then you said this…” Only a moment … that’s all?
My post above was in regard to any Engines that may have been supporting an alleged firing operations ABOVE and bailing out from there in a hurry, “like bats out of hell.”
These Engines are standing by at the Staging Area, they are NOT fleeing for their lives as the UTV WFs above in the various Hotchkiss FD (HFD) videos.
I think only one Engine had a dash-cam and the other was from a UTV.
Yes, there is one Engine out ahead “hauling ass” and that’s okay because they waited way too long there. They were waiting for “the word.”
The one HFD WF yelling at the WFs to hurry up, left from the Staging Area and NOT from the hinges of hell above.
Scared? Maybe … Fear and panic are subjective and contagious
“We’re SAFE now” is surely a sign of relief from a bunch of WFs that have likely never seen fire behavior this intense before and that would be a normal reaction. We do not know who said that.
And it could also be from the belief that some of them know they can now relax a bit because they maybe felt a little nervous hanging out at the Staging Area for way too long, with the Gates of Hell above them, wanting to come their way.
They were likely staged there with the Fire Chief doing his due diligence as a leader and ensuring the safety and welfare of those he supervises until they were all safely out of harm’s way.
And it is likely his HFD Engines have been (im)patiently (and some nervously) waiting for “the word” to disengage and head out.
The Hotchkiss Fire District Community Wildfire Protection Plan (CWPP) (2015) indicates they are very familiar with wildland fires and train proactively. They well know the seriousness of wildland fire in their Protection District and Delta County.
“The HFD firefighters have held large scale exercises simulating wildfire in the
District. These exercises, including a number of smaller table top trainings have proven invaluable on recent dangerous fires in the District, including the P25 Fire, the Wolf Park Fire, the Chaining Fire, and other fires in Delta County.”
http://www.cowildfire.org/wp-content/uploads/HotchkissFPD_CWPP_FINAL.pdf
“The danger presented by Wildfire has shaped the Hotchkiss Fire District’s equipment, training, station location, planning and management. In 1986, a wildfire on Redlands Mesa escaped initial attack and burned 700 acres in little less than 2 hours. Poor equipment, training and management were contributing factors, and Hotchkiss Firefighters resolved to improve across the board. The District has purchased equipment ideally suited for firefighting operations in the area, including apparatus equipped for structure protection. Hotchkiss firefighters focus their training on Wildfire four to six months a year, attend the Colorado Wildfire Academies, and hold certifications allowing them to fight fire with State and National Management Teams. This training and equipment has
allowed firefighters to gain experience on large fires in Delta County and throughout Colorado, as well as Texas and California.”
The CWPP includes several pages of various fire behavior zones with Rate of Spread, flame lengths, fireline intensity, and other fire behavior estimates.
I gonna stand by what I posted and feel that the HFD is a very dialed Fire District with a lot of wildland fire training, experience and responsibilities. And likely some WFs that need more experience.
We may have to agree too disagree and it wouldn’t be the first time.
I think the HS Crew could learn a lesson or two from these HFD folks and maybe should hire some for next fire season.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on June 3, 2018 at 6:33 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> My post above was in regard to any
>> Engines that may have been supporting
>> an alleged firing operations ABOVE and
>> bailing out from there in a hurry, “like
>> bats out of hell.”
>>
>> These Engines are standing by at the
>> Staging Area, they are NOT fleeing for
>> their lives as the UTV WFs above in
>> the various Hotchkiss FD (HFD) videos.
You are right. My bad.
There IS a difference.
There isn’t even any evidence ( yet ) that any of those engines ever even drove down that ‘road’ and into that canyon for any reason.
They were ‘staged’ there near that fence at gate at
3:40 PM and we still see then ‘staged’ there 90 minutes later, circa 5:10 PM, when the two FLA reports released so far say the ‘incidents’ were occurring with both the Logan Hotshots lookout and the Logan Hotshot Superintendent truck.
Even with TWO ‘reports’ already released… we still don’t ( as usual ) have anything near the ‘full story’.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post on June 3, 2018 at 8:48 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> WOW, ….looking at that photo I just have to say it,
>> “She’ll be comin’ round the mountain when she comes,
>> she’ll be comin’ round the mountain when she comes…….”
Yep.
And I for that other Logan Hotshot in the UTV who ended up risking HIS life to save the guy who ( for some still-unexplained reason ) couldn’t successfully ‘run’ out just like the other guy did who was also in the same stuck-truck… I suppose the THIRD verse is just as relevant…
“Oh… we’ll all go out to meet her when she comes…”
“Yes… we’ll all go out to meet her when she comes…”
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> Having said that, I also have to say that this fire activity
>> was most likely NOT the result of a burnout operation.
>>
>> On any burnout that includes available engines, most, if not
>> all, of those engines would be ACTIVELY ENGAGED at, or
>> very near, the burnout operation itself to guard against
>> slop-overs. The video evidence shows no engines or (firing)
>> crews fleeing the area (of a possible firing operation), and
>> if they had just fled just prior to the video, they would
>> have been ‘locked and loaded’ ON THE ROADWAY, preparing
>> to continue to flee yet even further.
All good points.
There’s a lot that we still do NOT know about what the heck those Logan Hotshots were ( or were not ) actually DOING in those 90 minutes between the photo above and the two ‘gates of hell’ videos.
If there was a lookout involved ( the other guy who almost died ), then surely they had started doing SOMETHING.
They didn’t just stand there “shooting the breeze” for the next 90 minutes, as they are seen doing in the photo at 3:40 PM.
On closer inspection with ‘Google Earth’… the feature I am talking about that ‘ascends’ that slope isn’t really any kind of ‘two-track road’ at all. It’s actually just a dry creek bed.
The TOP of that ‘feature’ ( up on the slope ) is exactly here…
37.946007, -108.525859
You can either cut-and-paste the line above ( including the comma ) into the search bar for ‘Google Maps’… or you should be able to just click the following link.
In both cases, a ‘RED Balloon’ should appear marking the ‘feature’ I am talking about that appears in the photograph above ‘ascending’ that slope…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/37%C2%B056'45.6%22N+108%C2%B031'33.1%22W/@37.9462912,-108.5267055,434m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d37.946007!4d-108.525859
That ‘spot’ is actuallly up on the slope itself, at the ‘top’ of the ‘dry creek’, and right where that FF ( the Logan Hotshots Superintendent? ) was ‘pointing’ in that 3:40 PM photograph.
That ‘dry creek bed’ runs down towards the road and meets it right where we see that Logan UTV emerging ‘from the gates of hell’ in the two videos.
No way any vehicles could have gone ‘up’ that dry creek bed, but it was an ideal place for a coupla Hotshots with drip torches to just ‘walk it’ and ‘light it up’.
Burnout or not… this ‘feature’ is where that ‘wall of fire’ is seen raging in the two videos.
Please bear in mind that the Horse Park Fire was these this HS Crew and these WFs’ first fire of the season with about 8 “new ” (not necessarily Rookies) WFs on their Crew.
Consider that they had competed their required 80-hour Wildland Fire Refresher training.
It is fortunate for us that so many videos were taken and well documented these near-miss events and it is definitely very unfortunate and likely embarrassing for them.
There will hopefully, be many lessons learned for the many other WFs that view these with that lessons learned goal in mind. There are so many lessons learned gems in these videos and the uncommonly detailed 72-hour report, (e.g. human factors, fire weather, fire behavior, tactics and strategy, etc.)
We are often cautioned about critiquing other’s mishaps with the “Hindsight Bias” feculence, as the YH Fire SAIT so strongly did in their SAIR on just a few pages: 5, 6, 33, 45, 46, 47, 50, 53, and 57). So then, definitely keep all that in mind as well.
However, also feel free to consider that y’all are entitled to your PROFESSIONAL WF opinions on the matter considering the valuable tried-and-true WF Rules (10 & 18, LCES, Fire Orders, Watch Outs, Common Denominators, and more).
Aside from several of those WFs having to change their shorts afterwards, many of them will now have to deal with their respective near-death experiences. Many others will have to deal with their “I wished-woulda-coulda-shoulda” demons for the rest of their lives as well.
It was by the Grace of God that none of them was seriously burned or killed. These can be readily inferred from the many Hotchkiss FD Facebook videos. Thank you Hotchkiss Firefighters for these.
And now with the ever so sensitive Facilitated Learning Analysis process, they and we, can be assured that the FLA “… is intended for use by any organization wishing to foster organizational learning as the response to unexpected outcomes”
Below is the Table of Contents, from one of many PDFs on the FLA subject with several variations just as Dr. Putnam’s research paper “Accident, Accident Guides, Stories and the Truth” said.
I did find it rather contradictory that the FLA listed in Section F that “Recommendations: Not Always Recommended” and yet there is a heading for it in Part 7 – Completing the Complex FLA Report … B. The Recommendations.”
That type of SNAFU is so unexpected …
CONTENTS
Part 1 – Background, Purpose and Need: Considerations for the Agency Administrator
A. The Benefits of a Facilitated Learning Analysis
B. An Expandable Process: The Difference Between a Basic FLA and a Complex FLA.
C. Critical Considerations for the Agency Administrator
D. Report/Review Requirements
E. How We Got Here
F. FLAs Beyond Accidents
Part 2 – Essential Principles of the Facilitated Learning Analysis Process
A. “Just Culture”: The Gold Standard of Accountability
B. Administrative Assurance of No Punitive Actions
Insert A: Understanding The Work Under a Just Culture
Part 3 – Initiating the FLA: Before the FLA Team Arrives
A. Priority Agency Administrator Actions
B. Forming the FLA Team
C. Clear Mutual Objectives: The In-Briefing
D. Trust
E. Cooperation with Other Investigations
F. Recommendations: Not Always Recommended
G. Human Performance Expertise: Review and Advice
H. Suggested FLA Report Outlines: Complex and Basic
Part 4 – The FLA Process
A. Interviewing
Insert B: Interview Questions
Insert C: Mitigating Hindsight Bias
B. The Heart of the FLA Process: The Facilitated Dialogue
C. Event/Accident Reconstruction
Insert D:
Two Suggestions for Dialogue Focus Questions
D. Final Considerations
Part 5 – A Complex FLA
A. Recommended Procedure for Conducting the Lessons Learned Analysis
B. Deliberate the “Seven Hows”
C. Recommendations for the Lessons Learned Analysis Documentation
Part 6 – Capturing and Sharing the Story
A. FLA Storytelling and Story Writing Tips
B. Different Perspectives
C. Story Validation
Part 7 – Completing the Complex FLA Report
A. The Summary
B. The Recommendations
C. Example
D. Report Approval and Publication
Part 8 – Appendices
Appendix A: Is an FLA the Right Tool?
Appendix B: Delegation of Authority for a Basic FLA
Appendix C: Delegation of Authority for a Complex FLA
Appendix D: Tickler List of In-Briefing Discussion Items
Appendix E: Reference Materials for Team Members
Hopefully, the FLA Team will find that this near miss incident occurred due to BOTH individual AND organizational decisions and actions, per human factors researcher and author Maurizio Catino (Spain) as outlined in his numerous research papers and books.
A Review of Literature: Individual Blame vs. Organizational Function Logics in Accident Analysis
https://cope.ku.dk/publications/2008_LOGICS_IN_ACCIDENT_ANALYSIS_-_M._CATINO.pdf
Here is a link for the 2012 USFS Doctrine. Not sure what its status is lately. The point is, there are numerous reports worth looking into, some very worthwhile.
https://www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/learning/apas.html
The Accident Prevention Analysis (APA) on the Indians Fire on the 2008. LPNF in CA. Very interesting fire weather, fire behavior, and human factors.
Be sure and read the “Balls Canyon Near Miss – Peer Review Report.” THAT one has got to be interesting if nothing else than how it got its name …
And we can be assured that the sensitive FLA Team will find that no one made any mistakes and that no one made any bad decisions and that no one is to blame. It is just one of those things that happens from time to time …
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on June 3, 2018 at 2:27 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Please bear in mind that the Horse Park Fire was this HS Crew
>> and these WFs’ first fire of the season with about 8 “new ”
>> ( not necessarily Rookies ) WFs on their Crew.
>>
>> Aside from several of those WFs having to change their shorts
>> afterwards, many of them will now have to deal with their
>> respective near-death experiences. Many others will have to
>> deal with their “I wished-woulda-coulda-shoulda” demons for
>> the rest of their lives as well.
>>
>> It was by the Grace of God that none of them was seriously burned or killed.
I guess all the laundry has come back.
Right after the Horse Park Fire Incident… the Logan Hotshots were immediately
‘demobbed’ and their Type 1 IHC status was changed to ‘Unavailable’ and ‘Local Only’.
As of today ( June 3, 2018 ), the Logan Hotshots have been returned to
Type 1 IHC ‘Active’ duty status and they are again showing as ‘Nationally Available’.
https://gacc.nifc.gov/gbcc/logistics/gb_crew_status/public/crews.php
I hope they have learned whatever they needed to in a hurry… because
they are about to be right back into the ‘thick of things’.
**
** CORRECTION
Okay… SCRATCH that entire post above.
Looks like the laundry is STILL out at the cleaners.
The Logan Hotshots have NOT been returned to ‘Active Duty’ status.
That link above was to some old, obscure ‘Great Basin Crew Status’ chart that dates back to 2017 and it was a total mistake on my part to assume that was the current status for the Logan Hotshots.
The REAL, CURRENT ‘Great Basin’ Crew Status page is HERE…
https://gbcc.us/gb_crew_status/public/crews.php
As of TODAY ( June 3, 2018 ) the status page says…
——————————————————————————–
Great Basin Crew Status
Updated: 06-03-2018 @ 16:52:28 MDT
Crew Name: LOGAN
Agency ID: UT-UWF
Home Dispatch: UT-NUC
Home GACC: GBC
Incident: N/A
Crew Location: Logan, UT
Mob Date: N/A
First Shift: N/A
14th Day: N/A
Status: U ( Unavailable )
Status Area: Local
Remarks: N/A
——————————————————————————-
So the Logan Hotshots are still “out of the game” and there is no indication WHEN they will return to ‘Active Duty’.
Out of the 12 ‘Great Basin’ Type 1 Hotshot Crews, the Logan Hotshots are now the ONLY crew that is not out fighting a fire.
Maybe a lot of them just up and quit after the Horse Park Fire Incident.
WTKTT,
Thanks for correcting that. it make A LOT more sense and make me feel A LOT better about the HS supervisors and their supervisors being empathetic and understanding the gravity of what these HS went through.
Yeah, you do need to get back up on the horse again as soon as possible, however, there is an FLA Team in progress that needs to complete their mission in a timely fashion with all those involved
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on June 3, 2018 at 6:47 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Thanks for correcting that. it make A LOT
>> more sense and make me feel A LOT better
>> about the HS supervisors and their supervisors
>> being empathetic and understanding the gravity
>> of what these HS went through.
I still think there actually MIGHT have been some ‘;level of injury’ that we aren’t hearing about.
That WF who was rescued did NOT look ‘well’ as that UTV went by the camera in the Hotchkiss FD video… and everyone seemed VERY concerned about him.
We still aren’t getting the full story regarding WHO had to be ‘rescued’…. and whether that person who ( inexplicably ) couldn’t make it out on foot just like the other person who was in the truck with him was the Logan Hotshot Superintendent… or the ‘passenger’ in the Supt. Truck.
That ‘rescued’ person might have been the Logan Hotshot Superintendent himself.
If HE is still ‘under the weather’… it would be hard to send the crew back out.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Yeah, you do need to get back up on the horse
>> again as soon as possible, however, there is an
>> FLA Team in progress that needs to complete
>> their mission in a timely fashion with all
>> those involved
Copy that.
There is also the fact that the Logan Hotshots burned up their primary command vehicle.. radios and all.
Maybe they don’t have that ’15 minute’ guarantee with Geico and it’s gonna take some time to replace that puppy.
https://youtu.be/JAnuwSEJ4kk
I hope one day
human factors
plays more into lessons learned
being more of these tragedies
are human tactics done improper
-that is the way I see it
and if you think the actions are always natural-
that is a bullshit
Human behaviors play a crucial role.
how many fire-blackened moonscapes are we gonna have to hear about?
Sonny’s days and he is still alive but his days of fighting fire simply with hand tools and a decent shovel seem to be a thing of the past…eh. It should be used as it was not on crucial spots to Tenderfoot fire—that fire they set went right to Lampe’s and others places….no hand crew making a fire break…no dozer line..yet the headlines shouted the Firefighters saved our town….oh yeah and I have ocean front property in Arizona…
I want to see HOW the Incident Command Level is currently being trained and what are the current folks…my humble opinion some either need to retire or some need more experience…they assumed to be by someone as experts and professionals probably in their own way of thinking vs. proper training…From my view I see it like this….
“Sir, the men blew the bridge, right on time and as scheduled… the only problem was, 2ndPlatoon of Alpha Company was, unfortunately, still on the bridge, when it went down… GOD’s WILL, SIR?” 😉
why are we talking weather and fire behavior—
let’s talk human factors 😉
The Good Lord Willing and the Creek Don’t Rise
If someone says, “God willing and the Creek don’t rise” they’re looking to achieve a goal. When they use this phrase, it means that they will achieve their goal as long as there are no outside forces of which they have no control preventing them from doing just that.
https://youtu.be/B-QBG6W-6EI
in the remembering…there is so many I will not name off that are commonly known like Bob Power’s Dad Rattlesake Fire and then the Cedar Fire of 03′ –the same year over by you Rocksteady…then the Hayman fire…1988 Yellowstone…30 mile fire and shit look at that fire; will ya….also remember the prescribed one—The Lowden Ranch Prescribed Fire – Lewiston, California – then there is South Canyon—Look at the reported origin and progression map of the Dude fire…and if you were alive then —-then you know it was one of the hottest days to that area in a long while…and low humidity…God rest your soul Paul as then the LCES would follow but has it really…that is what I mean… human factors learn the rules and maybe some day it will save your life…I say maybe because I heard one fire fighter’s story how a captain punched a battalion chief right out so there again that was not in the rule books…
human factors play a crucial role.
LEARN THE 10&18 and LCES and watchouts
on the line of the fire industry
or you cookie cutter subdivision folk like me…
it may save your life…
Standard Firefighting Orders
Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
Know what your fire is doing at all times.
Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
Identify escape routes and safety zones and make them known.
Post lookouts when there is possible danger.
Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
Maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor, and adjoining forces.
Give clear instructions and insure they are understood.
Maintain control of your forces at all times.
Fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first.
18 Watchouts Situations
Fire not scouted and sized up.
In country not seen in daylight.
Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior.
Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
Instructions and assignments not clear.
No communication link with crewmembers/supervisors.
Constructing line without safe anchor point.
Building fireline downhill with fire below.
Attempting frontal assault on fire.
Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
Weather is getting hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Getting frequent spot fires across line.
Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Taking a nap near the fire line.
LCES system (Lookouts, Communication, Escape Routes, Safety Zones)
I believe it starts with one…
Human Factors “at play” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj6r3-sQr58
I had a dream last night and actually just awoke from it
God allows all things due to man’s free will so I guess in that acceptance that iI finally have come to know it includes both good and bad …can we all just try to do our best at this day at hand to stop burning America reckless and go back and get trained proper so no more tragedies…
Joy,
That was actually a .pretty good video with a unique way of getting the message across. Thanks for sharing.
Rather doubtful if it would work in the WF realm because of the “be a Team Player … go along to get along and don’t rock the boat” mindset and the fear factor lorded over so many of these WFs (young and old alike) that are more interested in their careers than doing what is right.
And then you have those that do stand up for what’s right, like Woodsman, and he gets beat up and frustrated and feels like giving up.
Fortunately Woodsman refuses to be a member of the Quitters Club.
The quitter dude actually made his own YouTube video. It’s painful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSlZkouNx74
However, it may be there is a difference between giving up and knowing when you have had enough.
http://www.chapterbe.com/2015/daily-being/quitters-club/
**
** HORSE PARK FIRE ENTRAPMENT 24-HOUR REPORT
The Horse Park Fire Entrapment 24-Hour Report has been released.
It is available for download at the following link…
https://mailchi.mp/e5ecfc7b508d/horse-park-fire-entrapment-24-hour-report
Here is a TEXT version of the complete ( one-page ) report.
NOTE: The destroyed ‘Ford F-350’ ‘command vehicle’ being referred to in this 24-Hour report was the Logan Hotshots Superintendent’s Truck.
————————————————————————————————————
United States Department of the Interior
BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT
SOUTHWEST COLORADO FIRE
AND AVIATION MANAGEMENT UNIT
2465 South Townsend
Montrose, CO 81401
May 28th, 2018
To: Greg Shoop, Acting Colorado State Director
From: Stephanie Connolly, District Manager
Subject: 24-Hour Preliminary Report
THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE
Location: Horse Park Fire, Southwest of Naturita, Colorado
Date of Occurrence: May 27th, 2018
Time of Occurrence: Approximately 1710
Activity: Wildland Fire Suppression
Number of Injuries: 0
Number of Fatalities: 0
Property Damage (such as to vessels, equipment, and structures): Significant damage to Ford F-350
Narrative: During initial attack on the Horse Park Fire a command vehicle was abandoned and is thought to be a total loss. The driver and passenger were turning around when the vehicle got stuck. Due to the advancing fire, the driver and passenger had to flee on foot.
An interagency FLA ( Facilitated Learning Analysis ) team is currently being assembled.
Cc: John Ruhs, FA-100
Nora Rasure, FS R4
Curtis Heaton, FS R2
Randy Drager, FS R4
Jeff Arnberger, FA-300
Shelby Gales, FA-200
Steve Holdsambeck, FS WO
———————————————————————————————————
NOTE: Both Randy Drager and Steve Holdsambeck were involved in the Yarnell investigation.
There were FIVE PHOTOS circulated with this 24-Hour report.
They show the burned-up Logan Hotshots Superintendent’s Truck right at the spot where it got ‘stuck’ and had to be abandoned.
They are available for viewing at the following link…
https://youtu.be/u1zbshm9BXI
The Logan Hotshots were immediately ‘demobbed’ from the Horse Park Fire following this incident and are still showing as ‘Unavailable’ in the National Type 1 Hotshot Crew Status reports.
Followup…
As for Steve Holdsambeck ( listed above as potentially part of the ‘Facilitated Learning Analysis’ for the Horse Park Fire Incident )….
Even though he was not ‘officially’ listed as being involved with the Yarnell SAIT report… emails obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA show that ‘drafts’ of the SAIR document were being ‘submitted’ to Steve Holdsambeck for his ‘approval and/or editing’.
Also…
When Hotshot Superintendent David Provencio ( and others ) tried to inform the SAIT that there was evidence ( prior to Yarnell ) of ‘bad decision making’ on the part of Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots, Steve Holdsambeck was brought ‘into the loop’ by SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley.
Here is an email that Holdsambeck sent back to Dudley, including the ’email thread’ that Dudley ‘forwarded’ to Holdsambeck with David Provencio’s original emails to Mike Dudley ‘attached’ to the thread…
—————————————————————————————————
From: Holdsambeck, Steve -FS
Sent: 5 Aug 2013 17:01:35 +0000
To: Dudley, Mike -FS
Cc: Draeger, Randy -FS; Wilson, Richa -FS; tomzimmerma (at) gmail.com
Subject: Re: Jerry Payne?
Obviously you need to be careful how you respond to this.
My advice would be somewhere between these two options:
( THE REST OF THE CONTENT BODY OF THIS EMAIL HAS BEEN REDACTED )
( WITH NO VALID FOIA EXEMPTION CLAIM )
iPad mail
Steve Holdsambeck
Firefighter Safety Program Manager
U.S. Forest Service – Intermountain Region
324 25th St – Suite 4060
Ogden, UT 84401 cell: 801.721.7258
On Aug 5, 2013, at 8:54, “Dudley, Mike -FS” ( mdudley (at) fs.fed.us ) wrote:
Look who dropped me a note.
Sent from my Blackberry
From: David Provencio ( mailto: mso 1977 (at) me.com )
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 11:31 AM
To: Dudley, Mike -FS
Subject: Fwd: Jerry Payne?
Good morning Mike,
As you may know there are many of us Hotshots, past and present IHC superintendents that are not very happy with the decisions made at Yarnell Hill.
I know you have a tough job as the team leader for the investigation and I hope you report the truth.
Myself and others were in contact with Blue Ridge and T3 OSC several hours after the incident. Brian Frisby (fris) is one I would value my life with, so as I’m thinking and getting ready to send my son to a Hotshot crew next year, I know the good ones and the not so good ones.
Having worked with Granite Mtn before (we were next door neighbors), at San Carlos Apache Tribe, with Geronimo IHC. I can name several assignments from 2010 – 2012 where Eric Marsh made recommendations on some fire line work, BUT there was no other decision but turned it DOWN…..
Yarnell Hill, although tragic, does not come as a surprise to me and many of us.
To me this was just part of a trend that ended with this tragedy.
If you would like to discuss those particular past assignments, I have them well documented in writing, and in my mind.
Thanks for listening.
Dave
David Provencio
mso 1977 (at) me.com
805-798-5635
“Don’t strive to make your presence noticed, just make your absence felt”
Begin forwarded message:
From: “David Provencio” (mso 1977 (at) me.com )
Date: August 01, 2013 8:35:32 AM
To: “Schoeffler Fred” ( fschoeff (at) earthlink.net ),”Schoeffler Fred” ( dougfir777 (at) yahoo.com )
Subject: Jerry Payne?
Fred,
After reading a later article where the Prescott FD Chief responded to Jerry Payne, I would like to contact him and compliment him on his courage….. AND share with him my past experience having worked with Eric March and his crew, and several questionable decisions he has made in the past.
To me, there is a trend in his decison making….
Thanks,
Dave
David Provencio
mso 1977 (at) me.com
805-798-5635
“Don’t strive to make your presence noticed, just make your absence felt”
—————————————————————————————————–
So even though the ‘advice’ that Holdsambeck gave back to SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley is mysteriously REDACTED ( with no valid FOIA exception being claimed )… we can still pretty much bet that one of Holdsambeck’s recommedations to Dudley was…
“Ignore the information about Marsh’s prior bad decisions”.
As far as any evidence shows… this information was never passed on to SAIT investigator Brad Mayhew, who was in charge of the ‘Human Factors’ part of the SAIT investigation.
Unfortunately, last fire season (2017) Dave Provencio showed his true colors as a Quisling and willingly betrayed his WF “friends.”
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/vidkun-quisling
Whatever happened to the HS Brotherhood concept?
The dysfunctions of power in teams: A review and emergent conflict perspective. Lindred L.Greer, Lisanne Van Bunderen, and Siyu Yuc (2017) Research in Organizational Behavior, 37
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191308517300084
Pretty interesting and it puts a new perspective on what and why the GMHS Steed and Marsh “discussing our options” caused and exacerbated their ongoing discord and dissension.
And why Quislings do their dastardly deeds …
Thank you WTKTT for putting this together and posting it. It’s amazing how these video clips just keep appearing. There are bound to be more.
Are you able to meld all of these from different angles and such into one video as you did with one of your YH Fire videos?
The “dysfunctions of power in teams: A review and emergent conflict perspective” paper discusses in great detail the “Power struggles and team outcomes” and delves into it deeper discussing the “intra-team (within a team) power struggles” meaning within the team.
Hopefully, you will see the parallels in their examination as they compare to the June 30, 2013 “power struggle” between GMHS Supt. and Acting DIVS A and Acting GMHS Supt. Steed during their lengthy “discussing our options” over the GMHS discreet Crew net channel.
Take the time and read this and study it, then make the corrections within your Crew, team, whatever, to either tweak what is working for y’all or fix things the details that require modification and make them right.
The paper above discusses and suggests several of these options.
Remember, that BOTH Marsh’s and Steed’s ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY is the SAFETY AND WELFARE OF THOSE THEY SUPERVISE.
“Team members often struggle over power via political behaviors, such as coercion, lobbying, coalition formation, interruption, attempts to control, or impression management strategies (e.g., Keltner et al., 2008; Pettigrew, 1973 Pfeffer, 1981).”
These GMHS supervisors had been “struggling over power” for a while prior to the YH Fire. I allege that Marsh was not really “letting go of the reins” so to speak and he was trying to lord it over Steed that day during this discussion.
Recall that the GMHS had many more radios than most HS Crews, so that means that it is safe to say that ALL the GMHS were privy to this throughout these very important Crew Net radio conversations.
I allege that Marsh was certainly attempting this “via coercion, lobbying, coalition formation, interruption, and attempts to control, or impression management strategies” within the Crew.
Remember that, according to public records below, Marsh wanted the GMHS down OFF the hill, near the BSR, while fire behavior was increasing. Steed was holding his ground, albeit using mitigating and hinting speech, deferring to authority (i.e., Marine Corps training) telling Marsh either “we cannot make it” or “we are not going to make it.”
According to public records, Marsh told Steed, “I understand and I am sorry.” Sorry, really?
“When two members are vying for power, they may also try to dominate team meetings by pushing their own agenda and interrupting or even ignoring their rival’s input.” I allege that this was what preceded this decision to leave their Safety Zone when the GMHS was likely (hopefully) talking among themselves (team meetings), with Marsh “pushing his own agenda” (bring them down), and certainly “interrupting [and] even ignoring their rival’s input.” (see above and reread the public record on this below). I further allege that it was clearly a power struggle up on the hill in their perfectly good safety Zone, as documented in public records. “Yarnell fire: New account of hotshot deaths by Robert Anglen, Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez The Arizona Republic Apr 5, 2015.”
http://tucson.com/news/yarnell-fire-new-account-of-hotshot-deaths/article_ca183354-cc8a-5e68-8c99-9599397d0c0c.html
“As members’ time and energy are fixed resources, investing in power struggles thus inevitably crowds out members’ time and energy toward core team goals (Jehn, 1995).” I allege that the goal of the GMHS proper, per their immediate supervisor Steed, was to remain in the black (“we’re in the black” and “we’re not going to make it” or “we can’t make it”) and DIVS Marsh was challenging that the entire time, (bring them down) thus causing confusion and possibly doubt from at least some of the experienced GMHS, and likely most, if not all, of the Rookies who were deferring to their leaders to protect them.
“This directly hurts team performance, and when teams fail to meet goals, this can also negatively impact members’ motivation to work in the team again (e.g., Weinberg & Ragan, 1979), harming team viability outcomes as well.” I further allege that this directly hurt the GMHS “team performance” on previous fires when they also failed to meet similar goals as evidenced by the many Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes and the Normalization of Deviance since their inception as an IHC in 2009. This was especially apparent on the 2012 Holloway Fire, the “Nevada Fire” they called it in public records during the Squad Boss interview to replace Maldonado. It is also apparent in the VIMEO video where the contract Engine Crew had to “save Granite Mountain’s buggies.”
I allege that this definitely, negatively impacted the bulk of the GMHS’ “motivation to work in the team again” when so many of the former GMHS are known to have quit the Crew, right up to the month before the YH Fire; because, as public records reveal, they were “sick and tired of Marsh always trying to prove himself.” They and others likely felt this harmed GMHS’ “viability outcomes” as well.
So then, why would you want to stay with that kind of repeated boo sheet going on?
“Second, power struggles ruin the foundations of intra-team cooperation. The typical manners in which people struggle for power (e.g., coercion) create tension and hostility (Georgesen & Harris, 2006; Mannix & Sauer, 2006) among team members, which undermines psychological safety (De Hoogh et al., 2015), intra-team trust ( De Jong & Elfring, 2010 ), and members ’ willingness to share information and cooperate with one another (Bendersky & Hays, 2012; Greer & Van Kleef, 2010 ). When members are unwilling to cooperate together to achieve team goals, the value of teams are lost, and teams are unlikely to achieve their task goals (e.g., Pinto, Pinto, & Prescott, 1993; Smith, Carroll, & Ashford, 1995).”
And finally, the GMHS supervisors’ power struggle which certainly created tension and hostility (“we haven’t felt comfortable all day” per the MacKenzie video after Marsh’s “checking on your comfort level” to Steed) seemed to have ruined a lot of the foundations of intra-team cooperation, when they were hopefully discussing among themselves.
These very likely would have been led by Scott Norris,former Payson HS and avid ‘student of fire fatalities’ and Rookie Billy Warneke, former Marine Scout sniper with a shit ton of leadership training, attempting (unsuccessfully) to convince their fellow WFs to stay put, especially in those 52 MINUTES FROM BLOWUP TO BURNOVER per the image below. Yes indeed, 52 f**king minutes!
Only Minutes – Blow-up to Burnover training poster
https://www.google.com/search?q=poster+52+minutes+from+blow+up+to+burnover&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXk9OHrL_bAhWQ2VMKHT-DAGwQ_AUICygC&biw=1025&bih=464#imgdii=TVNS5kSv9yWtPM:&imgrc=GR2epAezTjDPOM:
“The typical manners in which people struggle for power (e.g., coercion) create tension and hostility … among team members, which undermines psychological safety … intra-team trust …, and members ’ willingness to share information and cooperate with one another … When members are unwilling to cooperate together to achieve team goals, the value of teams are lost, and teams are unlikely to achieve their task goals ….”
I allege that the “typical manners in which” GMHS supervisors struggled for power (e.g., coercion) created tension and hostility … among the GMHS team members, which undermined psychological safety, … intra-team trust …, and the GMHS members’ “willingness to share information and cooperate with one another … When members are unwilling to cooperate together to achieve team goals, the value of teams are lost, and teams are unlikely to achieve their task goals” of staying safely in the good black.
And so, they could not manage what agreement they did have, instead deciding to take a Trip to Abilene, all the while unsuspectingly and likely unintentionally succumbing to the sinister power of Groupthink.
According to the July 2013 YH Fire GMHS Fatality Site News Conference video, I allege that this Groupthink mindset may have very well been a comprehended, and yet tacit, policy on the PFD that horribly influenced a lot of PFD WFs that day.
If your head hurts from contemplating all that … it
If your head hurts from contemplating all that … it should
https://flic.kr/p/ZgD2Bh
calling Gary…can I pull you away from MOAB? or was it moap 😉
?????
IT WAS SHARED RECENTLY SMOKEY THE BEAR WAS IN YARNELL
it since then has drawn in the black bear and cinnamon bear…as good looking as Smokey is I can see why these 2 are wandering looking for Smokey…
maybe to ask when next they have to evacuate….
bear trap from Game and Fish is set—to relocate them.
Sonny I am sure can share bear stories with you all…he always felt I was the best to have on the trails when seeing a bear not because I have a special thing with wildlife but because he was a skeleton and I was meaty…I told Sonny bears like bones…calcium…yeah I probably would have been eaten..oh well…still alive to share the photo (source: SAWYER/LAKEWOOD) https://flic.kr/p/26jwShM
Locals and might as well state GMHS STATE LAND MEMORIAL PARK hikers and ranger Gus Parrish:
BE AWARE OF BEARS —sightings in Glen Ilah/on highway 89 and as well keep eyes open when you are at number 11 Anthony Rose on the trail looking out towards ACRI/Lone Ocotillo Trail/Cottonwood Canyon or on highway 89 going up near Fool’s Gulch…
Now let me go see what is new below besides the obvious… (*) “Hey BOYZ-Z-Z… at what point in the timeline preceding the “blowup” might YOU ALL imagine, there must’ve been a “buick-sized fire-or-remnant” on the HORSE PARK FIRE to start with and, by the way, InciWeb says the original cause of the fire was LIGHTNING @ Midnight 26/27th… how BIG do you suppose, it had grown to become BEFORE the blowup or do you imagine, what we’re looking at on the video is the “steady growth” up until, that status?” (*)
Fire talk
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345999
Check out the May 28, 2018 Wildfire Today article titled: Strategic withdrawal on the Horse Park Fire in Colorado
http://wildfiretoday.com/2018/05/29/strategic-withdrawal-on-the-horse-park-fire-in-colorado/
The Hotchkiss FD (Facebook) videos are pretty revealing. Go to the “This is a different view of the same event …” video
https://www.facebook.com/pg/HotchkissFire/videos/
WTF were these guys thinking with that kind of fire behavior?
Thanks for the heads up.
Radio traffic that is ‘underneath’ the firefighters in the foreground yelling “Go! Go! Get Out” clearly states that they got some firefighters out… but they definitely “lost a vehicle”.
At the very start of the first video, and on the extreme left side of the video frame, a UTV is seen almost ’emerging from the flames’. It continues moving toward the camera and becomes the second UTV in the foreground when the other firefighters are yelling at them to “Stop fucking around… GO! GO!”.
There are also two firefighters on FOOT on the left edge of the video who are also walking towards the camera, trailing the UTV that seemed to ’emerge from the fireline”.
Even with everyone YELLING… the two firefighters on foot and the closest to the raging fireline don’t seem to be in any hurry at all. They are just ‘strolling along’ like everything is fine.
Scary.
There was likely at least one fire shelter deployment (HS or FD)
The HS Lookout broke his radio antenna, so the Crew had no communications with them. They thought he died.
Supposedly a CRaP (Critical Response Protocol) or Facilitated Learning Analysis, or whatever other alphabet review team has been assigned. So them, there will be NOR real lessons learned here because they do not examine causal factors at all.
Whomever it was involved, it was their first fire of the season with multiple new WFs to their Crew
Notwithstanding all that, certainly, at least some of the supervisory overhead (HS) proactively noticed the obvious aggressive fire behavior increasing and said something to someone … or maybe not. At least the Hotchkiss FD folks did even though it was quite reactive
The Coordinated Response Protocol (CRaP) and Learning Review for serious accidents link
https://www.fs.fed.us/rmrs/science-spotlights/coordinated-response-protocol-and-learning-review-serious-accidents
You can also go to the Wildfire Today (WFT) article
http://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/WP-Coordinated-Response-Protocol-Paper.001.pdf
Within the WFT article you will find this quote in the CRaP paper:
“Actions and decisions are consequences, not causes. The goal is to understand why actions or decisions made sense to those involved at the time. Conditions shape decisions and actions, revealing these conditions will aid the agency and agency personnel in understanding how to recognize, change and react to conditional pressures.”
ACTIONS AND DECISIONS ARE CONSEQUENCES, NOT CAUSES. Really? I thought that “actions” based on “decisions,” actually “caused” or resulted in consequences, whether good or bad.
Part of what this comes to is that if a decision is not caused, there is no standard explanation of it and if maybe there is no explanation of it – what other kind of explanation of events is there but a standard causal one?
The CRaP quote sounds a lot like the notion of DETERMINISM. Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will.
It looks like the CRaP implies that individual human beings have NO FREE WILL and CANNOT BE HELD MORALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
And here lies the rub. Where are the Lessons Learned if nobody is ever going to be found to have made any bad decisions that resulted in (OMG) mistakes (e.g. wildland fire burnovers and/or fatalities)?
>> RTS wrote…
>>
>> ACTIONS AND DECISIONS ARE CONSEQUENCES,
>> NOT CAUSES. Really? I thought that “actions” based
>> on “decisions,” actually “caused” or resulted in
>> consequences, whether good or bad.
So… according to the CRaP way of looking at things…. Roseanne Barr shouldn’t have had her TV show cancelled yesterday?
Yea. Right.
The CRaP “ACTIONS AND DECISIONS ARE CONSEQUENCES, NOT CAUSES.” is quite the Orwellian Doublespeak, where “War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength.”
We also often hear people spout off the Orwellian doublespeak that “Ignorance is Bliss.”
WTF!? Ignorance is actually DANGEROUS in the general public and extremely DANGEROUS in the WF realm, especially when we are lied to in all WF Investigation Reports of fatality fires.
Just reread either of Dr. Putnam’s papers titled: “Up in Smoke” or “Accidents, Accident Guides, Stories and the Truth.”
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=05262454341263280395Investigations, stories, and truth.”
Worst of all is George Orwell;s 1984 “Doublethink,” which is described as the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct.
We are already there and have been for quite some time. Just read some of the SAIT SAIRs, FLAs, Agency ‘Talking Points’ and Party Line news releases, or better yet, the July 2013 YH Fire fatality Site News Conference video statements made by the PFD Wildland Fire BC.
Author Josef Pieper, (2011) in his short book Words. Abuse of Language, Abuse of Power, has this to say:
“To respect words and their conveyance of reality is to show respect for the very foundation of reality. To manipulate words is to MANIPULATE TRUTH and instead to CHOOSE FALSITY and illusion over reality. The manipulation of words is itself a violent act ..”
In other words, the SAIT-SAIR language is being used to control people (WFs in this case) and manipulate them to achieve their practical ends of lying by omission.
ACTIONS AND DECISIONS ARE CONSEQUENCES, NOT CAUSES
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on May 30, 2018 at 7:42 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There was likely at least one fire shelter
>> deployment (HS or FD)
What’s bizarre in the video is that when that UTV seems to almost ’emerge’ from the fireline itself and starts speeding towards the camera location, it blows RIGHT BY the two firefighters who are on FOOT and just sort of ‘sauntering’ towards the Crew Carriers.
The UTV doesn’t even slow down or bother to stop and pick them up to get them the hell out of there.
Gee… thanks, fellas.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The HS Lookout broke his radio antenna, so the Crew had
>> no communications with ( him ). They thought he died.
So what is the protocol there ( and was it followed )?
I imagine the very MOMENT a designated ‘lookout’ loses the ability to communicate via radio… that is immediately a ‘life threatening’ situation for the people who are depending on him/her.
In this day and age… I suppose the FIRST move is to get on your cellphone ( if you even have one and if there is coverage ) and inform someone of your situation and to WARN the people who were depending on you that they no longer can.
The NEXT move ( or the FIRST one if you don’t have a cellphone ) is to IMMEDIATELY haul ass back to your unit ( if safe to do so ) or to the nearest radio.
If people are depending on a ‘lookout’… it is imperative they know they can no longer do so AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Supposedly a CRaP (Critical Response Protocol) or Facilitated
>> Learning Analysis, or whatever other alphabet review team has
>> been assigned.
I suppose that confirms there WAS at least one vehicle burned up and/or one deployment involving HS ( and not FD ).
If anyone did DIE… they are already WAY BEYOND the time when they are supposed to at least release the ‘Initial Notification’ document.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So then, there will be NO real lessons learned here because
>> they do not examine causal factors at all.
Nope. Nothing actually ever ’causes’ anything… right?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Whomever it was involved, it was their first fire of the season
>> with multiple new WFs to their Crew
In the video… you can see the side of the Crew Carrier and it says…
LOGAN HOTSHOTS
UT-UWF-C17A
U.S. Forestry ‘Tree Shield’ logo on the driver side door.
The Logan Hotshots are based on the ‘Logan Ranger District’ in Logan, Utah.
Logan Ranger District
1500 East Highway 89
Logan, Utah 84321
The ‘Logan Hotshots’ are now ( already ) showing as ‘Unassigned’ and ‘Unavailable’ in the official ‘Great Basin’ Type 1 Crew Status report…
Great Basin Crew Status – Updated ( today ) 05/30/2018
https://gbcc.us/gb_crew_status/public/crews.php
———————————————————————-
Great Basin Crew Status
Updated: 05-30-2018 @ 09:13:11 MDT
Status was current as of the time this report was last updated
T-1 Crews Sorted By Crew Name…
Crew Name: Logan
Agency ID: UT-UWF
Home Dispatch: UT-NUC
Home GACC: GBC ( Great Basin Crew )
Incident: N/A
Crew Location: Logan, UT
Mob Date: N/A
First Shift: N/A
14th Day: N/A
Status: U ( Unavaliable )
Status Area: Local
Remarks: N/A
———————————————————————–
Out of the 12 ‘Great Basin’ Type 1 Crews… only the Logan and Black Mountain Crews are showing a status of ‘Unavailable’ at this moment and back to being listed as ‘Local only’ instead of ‘Nationally available’.
Maybe the ‘Great Basin Hotshots’ were involved in the same incident ( since it was basically in their ‘backyard’ ) and have also been ‘demobbed’ just like the ‘Logan Hotshots’.
Whoops. Typo in the last paragraph above.
I type ‘Great Basin Hotshots’ instead of ‘Black Mountain Hotshots’.
Last paragraph above should have read like this…
Maybe the ‘Black Mountain Hotshots’ were involved in the same incident ( since it was basically in their ‘backyard’ ) and have also been ‘demobbed’ just like the ‘Logan Hotshots’.
https://www.fs.fed.us/science-technology/fire/people/great-basin-ihc
Logan IHC ( Interagency Hotshot Crew )
Uinta Wasatch Cache NF
Logan Ranger District
1500 East Hwy. 89
Logan, UT 84321
(435) 755-3620/3637 (Office)
(435) 755-3639 (Fax)
Duty location for crew: Logan, UT
Roy Fetzer, Superintendent
Email: rfetzer (at) fs.fed.us
(435) 770-4303 (Cell)
Ryan Baker, Captain
Email: rbaker (at) fs.fed.us
(435) 232-6791
Eric Landreth, Captain
Email: eblandreth (at) fs.fed.us
(801) 695-6882
Wonder what the fire behaviour forecast predicted in the morning briefing and IAP????
Woodsman,
One “gets over it” by keeping up the ‘good fight.’ I’m still dealing with feculence from the 1985 Butte Fire and the 1990 Dude Fire and everything else in between …
Jesus Christ and dealing with it head-on talking and sharing and writing about it has the only way for me.
Deal! I promise to work on it as well and promise to never quote-bomb your posts again.
Or at least to cut way back …
That means like more than a few right? I always like to quote sources because I am not as intelligent as you. .
I wanted to appeal to your Warrior standing My Friend and give the proper credit where it is due.
They were on an extended attack fire in day 3 or 4 when this occurred.
SPC Fire WX Outlook for May 28th reveals plenty to be concerned about
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/products/fire_wx/2018/180528_1700_fwdy1_print.html
Day 1 Fire Weather Outlook
NWS Storm Prediction Center Norman OK
1020 AM CDT Mon May 28 2018
Valid 281700Z – 291200Z
…CRITICAL FIRE WEATHER AREA FOR PORTIONS OF SOUTHEAST COLORADO AND NORTHEAST NEW MEXICO…
The critical area has been trimmed to remove far southeast CO.
Available fuel status information suggests fuels are not supportive of large fires across this region. …cool north winds as far south as the Arkansas River are maintaining dewpoints in the mid 50s to low 60s and how much mixing may occur is unclear. Other minor adjustments have been made on the eastern edge of the elevated area to better reflect forecast position of the surface dryline and expected afternoon thunderstorm development.
..Leitman.. 05/28/2018
.PREV DISCUSSION… /ISSUED 0152 AM CDT Mon May 28 2018/
…Synopsis…
An upper low centered over the Great Basin early this morning will develop slowly northeastward today. Enhanced mid-level flow of 30-40 kt will persist across parts of the Southwest and southern/central High Plains through this afternoon. At the surface, a low will
remain over eastern CO, with a dryline extending southward from this low across the southern High Plains.
Portions of the Southwest and Southern /Central Plains … Strong/gusty southerly to southwesterly winds around 20-30 mph will likely develop this afternoon across a small part of northeastern NM
into southern/eastern CO as the enhanced mid-level winds mentioned
previously become diurnally mixed to the surface. Some enhancement to the surface pressure gradient will also exist across this region.
Behind the surface dryline, RH values will easily fall below 15% as a very dry low-level airmass becomes well mixed. A relatively narrow overlap of strong /gusty winds with RH values of 5-15% appears likely this afternoon across northeastern NM and parts of southern / eastern CO, where a critical area has been maintained with generally minor
changes. Elevated fire-weather conditions will occur across a broader portion of NM into the western TX/OK Panhandles and southeastern CO. But, marginal forecast wind speeds of 15-20 mph should preclude more widespread critical conditions across this region. The eastward extent of elevated fire-weather conditions will also be constrained by the surface dryline, which will likely not make much eastward progress through peak heating.
So they should not have been surprised that the fire behaviour had that potential and been aware of what could happen…. So how come they came so close to getting burned??
Question-
Statistically and historically— these wildfires or as Michael Kodas named his book… these megafires
“how many” of the wildfires have been early on suppressed and put out?
how many wildfires in their fight fire with fire tactics did it improperly and an almost bedded down and out fire then became a fatality tragedy?
Joy,
All of the wildfires that did NOT get labeled Megafires?
You posted: “how many wildfires in their fight fire with fire tactics did it improperly and an almost bedded down and out fire then became a fatality tragedy?”
All the wildfires where the WFs failed to abide by the basic WF Rules and failed to recognize the fire’s potential (it signaled its intentions) and failed to make proactive (wise) choices to disengage and/or change tactics.
It is the same for EVERY wildland fire fatality where the WFs are killed by fire
Thank you sir
bleachers—
Joy, Joy, Joy
Suggestion for your consideration…
Calling ALL
WF’s
and/or
WFF’s as might be preferred…
the QUESTION
presented
for frank and open discussion on earlier comment
(May 27, 2018 at 5:32 pm)
was A 2-Part-Question and was intended to address the much wider spectrum of EVERYONE INVOLVED in the tragedies, which uncontrolled fires of all types bring into their lives.
For purposes of this forum, however, we are definitely referring to WILDFIRES and their CONSEQUENCES.
For instance, let’s take a closer look at GATLINBURG and the “Chimney Tops2 Fire” ….14 FATALITIES who had NO IDEA THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW THE 10’s&18’s…
H-A-P-P-E-N-E-D…
and according to reports, some 2100 structures were partially or totally burned… it was the Thanksgiving Season and WINTER was right around the corner… it can and does get COLD in Tennessee !!!
HUMAN LIVES – ANIMALS – HOMES – BUSINESSES – ENTIRE ECONOMIES – MEMORIES – and the HEALTH-SAFETY-WELFARE and ASTRONOMICAL COSTS
which might, otherwise, be better directed towards accomplishing any number of positive and constructive endeavors!
HOW ABOUT KEEPING THE CONTAMINANTS OUT OF THE AIR WE BREATH AND REDUCING THE DESTRUCTIVE EFFECTS OF EROSIONAL AFTERMATH, WHILE YOU’RE AT IT ??? Please, SPEAK UP and let YOUR VIEWS be made known. Thank You!
Joy,
You posted: “For instance, let’s take a closer look at GATLINBURG and the “Chimney Tops2 Fire” ….14 FATALITIES who had NO IDEA THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW THE 10’s&18’s…”
That is correct. It was the responsibility of the Government officials, the local WF’s and Supervisors, with alleged local knowledge of the local fire weather and local fire behavior (Watch Out #4).
The citizens could no and should not have been expected to know these things.
The local Govt. officials screwed up royally. One of the Investigators stated that the review Team “… did not focus on blame. … and “… the review team found no evidence of negligence. …”
Gee, that is EXACTLY like what the YH Fire SAIT/SAIR concluded!
Below is a copy of the 153-page report, titled: Chimney Tops 2 Fire Review Individual Fire Review Report
https://mgtvwate.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/nps-chimney-tops-2-fire-review-report.pdf
Here is a link for a lawsuit filed by MICHAEL B. REED, Individually, as (Next of Kin of Constance M. Reed,)
Deceased, and Surviving Parent of (Chloe E. Reed and Lillian D. Reed, (Deceased, and JAMES L. ENGLAND, JR.,) (PLAINTIFFS,) v UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,)
the federal government, (DEFENDANT.) COMPLAINT FOR DAMAGES UNDER FEDERAL TORTS CLAIMS ACT
http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/Reed+and+England+Lawsuit.pdf
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on May 29, 2018 at 9:55 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The local Govt. officials screwed up royally.
>> One of the Investigators stated that the
>> Team “… did not focus on blame…
>> ” and “… the review team found no evidence of negligence. …”
Well… the Tennessee Fourth Judicial District Attorney ( Jimmy Dunn ) and the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation sure did ( find evidence of massive negligence on the part of the National Park Service, Tennessee Forestry, and Gatlinburg officials ).
Matter of fact… they found SO much ‘evidence of negligence’ in the handling of the Chimney Tops fire that they were forced to completely DISMISS all ‘charges’ against the two teenagers who ( supposedly ) started the fire by ‘flicking matches’ on the Chimney Tops trail.
The legal term that came into play here was… “Medium quoque causas”
That means “Intervening Causes”.
It means ( in this case ) that even if you think you can prove someone STARTED a fire… if there were then ‘intervening causes’ and ‘obvious negligence’ that worsened the situation and eventually led to fatalities… you can’t charge the ones who you think started the fire with those eventual fatalities.
WTVL – FirstCoast News
Article Title: Arson charges dropped against teens in Gatlinburg wildfire case
Published: 4:32 PM EDT July 1, 2017
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/arson-charges-dropped-against-teens-in-gatlinburg-wildfire-case/453585869
From that article…
——————————————————————————-
KNOXVILLE — Prosecutors have dropped charges against two Tennessee teenagers they labeled as responsible for the state’s deadliest wildfire in a century, an attorney confirmed Friday.
Defense attorney Gregory P. Isaacs said the state can’t prove that the horseplay of the boys, ages 17 and 15, that sparked a fire in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park caused the deadly wildfires in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, FIVE DAYS LATER.
“My client and the other juvenile, based on the proof and the evidence, did NOT cause the death and devastation in Gatlinburg,” Isaacs said during an afternoon news conference inside his in downtown Knoxville law office
Isaacs called the case “an unfortunate rush to judgment” on the two teens.
The boys were hiking on the Chimney Tops Trail in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park on Nov. 23 and tossing lit matches onto the ground around the trail. Brush caught fire. The boys continued hiking down the trail. A fellow hiker with a Go-Pro happened to catch footage of them with smoke in the background. He didn’t know it was important.
Park officials ( then ) DECIDED to let the fire burn.
FIVE DAYS LATER, winds of nearly 90 mph whipped up, spreading deadly flames into Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge.
The emergency response was ( also ) fretted with flaws, including the failure to warn residents and delayed evacuations.
Jimmy Dunn, fourth Judicial District attorney general, and Tennessee Bureau of Investigation Director Mark Gwyn announced the arrest of the boys in December on charges of aggravated arson, accusing them of setting the fatal wildfire.
But Dunn’s office couldn’t connect the evidentiary dots between the boys’ setting of the Chimney Tops fire and the deadly fires five days later, Isaacs said.
If park officials had ordered the Chimney Tops flames doused, there would have been no fire to spread. Even if they hadn’t, no one, including the boys, could be expected to predict rogue, freakishly furious winds five days later. It’s known as “intervening causes” under the law and makes it all but impossible to prove the boys intended or even knew death would result from their match flicking, Isaacs said.
The only thing the boys could be prosecuted for was setting a fire in the park.
——————————————————————————-
The negligence that followed ( the “intervening cause” ) was the real reason for the ( eventual ) deaths in Gatlinburg.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Gee, that is EXACTLY like what the YH Fire SAIT/SAIR concluded!
>> ( no evidence of negligence or protocol violations )
Yep… and just like Gatlinburg… the subsequent investigation done by people who actually KNOW how to even DO a proper investigation revealed so much negligence at Yarnell that they ( ADOSH ) levied the maximum fines allowed by law against Arizona Forestry for what happened in that ‘chaotic’, ‘mismanaged’ and ‘unsafe’ workplace.
Matter of fact… if the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire had actually also been found to be caused by ‘two teenagers flicking matches’ on the Weavers… ( or whatever ) a similar result to Gatlinburg would have taken place.
Once all the ‘negligence’ in the actual handling of the fire was revealed… whoever they might have been ‘charging’ with the start of the Yarnell Fire would have also had the charges against them DROPPED because of “Medium quoque causas”( Intervening causes ).
WTKTT,
You posted: “Matter of fact… if the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire had actually also been found to be caused by ‘two teenagers flicking matches’ on the Weavers… …”.
“Once all the ‘negligence’ in the actual handling of the fire was revealed… whoever they might have been ‘charging’ with the start of the Yarnell Fire would have also had the charges against them DROPPED because of “Medium quoque causas”( Intervening causes ).”
That’s kind of a Non Sequitor, it does not follow because the cause of the YHF was lightning.
Maybe they could have and should have charged the alleged SAIT alleged “Investigators” for their misfeasance.
Definition of Misfeasance
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misfeasance
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on May 29, 2018 at 8:49 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> That’s kind of a Non Sequitor, it does not follow
>> because the cause of the YHF was lightning.
Yes. I know. That was a total ‘hypothetical’ just to illustrate a point. You must have missed the word ‘IF’ at the start of the sentence above.
I was on hike today with FFs and also met up with some FFs for a meeting and also went to a FF home and in that…they said they tried INVESTIGATIVEmedia but cannot go back thru 35,000 comments but the general overall discussion asked to me since I participate on IM was what specifically is the cover up on YHF? They said Gary and others say cover-ups yet there has not been a set definition. I would imagine someone can answer that…Rocksteady? TTWABE? Calvin? All the Bobs and Bills… WWTKTT? Gary? all the ladies chime in…Diane…anyone…
It is almost 5 years later…can we yet define it…the most asked topic on my hikes with FFs…
The following does not define it, but certainly is an example of it:
The information that the Prescott City Attorney found so important that he rushed to the Arizona Attorney General’s Office to relay it This information, he had just received from Darrell Willis regarding what Brendon had just spilled his guts to Willis about. That information, as best we can piece together from documented reports, describes in a fair amount of detail “the argument”. One will never find any of that info an any official reports, staff rides, or any of the like.
YHF coverup:
The absence of radio transmissions and trnscripts of communications leading up to the burnover. Also the fact that the Blue Ridge hotshots, were not allowed to be interviewed.
Also the disappearance of key items such S Eric Marsh’s cell phone as well as not maintaining a secure crime scene (deployment site) after officer Tarr left the site.
TTWARE,
You posted: “One will never find any of that info an any official reports, staff rides, or any of the like.”
You are correct, we will never find any of this in the “official” and “factual” reports. It does come out in in Staff Rides (not officially in the Party Line version), however, this information especially comes out in the formal and informal break out sessions and such, especially when there are former participants on those fatality fires.
Truth seeking in fatality fires is a life long endeavor
This is a link for the “After Action Review of the 164-page November 28, 2016, Firestorm”
http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/AAR_ChimneyTops2.pdf
There are repeated references to the ” … unprecedented, horrific firestorm moving through Gatlinburg and other parts of Sevier County …” This has been discussed by career WFs for decades noting that WHEN the Southeastern Region experienced Western-like fire conditions (e.g. drought, high nighttime temperatures, strong winds, low humidity values and fuel moisture values, and prolific spotting resulting in aggressive to extreme fire behavior and large-scale death and destruction), they would experience exactly what they did – catastrophic fire behavior with death and destruction.
“The focus of this AAR is to identify recommendations that will help make sure that Sevier County, the City of Gatlinburg, and other agencies/jurisdictions are better
prepared for any future catastrophic events and intentionally does not seek to assign individual credit or blame.”
So then, how do we learn form the mistakes of those numerous bad decisions?
Focusing on their “recommendations” listed will generally reveal the areas that the WFs and Agency fell short on or were negligent in, even though they will not admit to those discrete terms.
Another area to focus on is the “Sense-making” where they try to determine why/how it made sense to the WFs at the time to initiate and/or follow the (in)actions they did.
And I recall reading somewhere about the 30-year veteran WF manager that stated something to the effect that because he had never experienced any of this radical fire behavior that it could not happen (or something like that).
I personally thought back channel one of the most informative on YHF would of chimed in on this specific topic from the bleachers….So I hope you are able to post here but Elizabeth Nowicki really could define it best….just my humble opinion…
Reply to Joy A Collura post on May 28, 2018 at 11:28 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> I was on hike today with FFs and also met up with
>> some FFs for a meeting and also went to a FF home
That’s a lof ot “FFs”.
WHO are these “FFs” you are referring to?
Is one of them Brad Mayhew… the original lead investigator for the Arizona Forestry contracted “Special Accident” investigation?
The same Brad Mayhew who just recently interrupted author John Maclean’s “Yarnell 5 years later” presentation at that Wildfire Safety conference ( even after specifically being told NOT to do so )… and then tried to sling his bullshit that the SAIT report never said there was any ‘gap in communication’ between 1604 and 1637 on June 30, 2013?
Not Brad yet and due to local politics as well as Arizona State politics…these ones are at this stage did not even take a group pic so one is from Payson area…2 are rather newbies…3 are retired or quit YFD FFs.. and one structural kind from CA Things are unravelling in Yarnell with the fire dept. this week…so it is mainly that…the Mayhew hike never got another corresponding but a lot will be from CA areas…
Reply to Joy Collura post on May 29, 2018 at 12:02 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> Not Brad yet
Ah. Okay. Thank you. I remember you said that lead investigator Brad Mayhew HAD requested that you ‘hike’ him out at the Yarnell site and I thought he might have been part of that group of FFs you just hiked/met with.
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> and due to local politics as well as Arizona State politics…
>> these ones are at this stage did not even take a group pic
>>
>> one is from Payson area…
>> 2 are rather newbies…
>> 3 are retired or quit YFD FFs..
>> one structural kind from CA
So let me see if I have this right.
At least 7 ( perhaps 10, as you said to Gary Olson in another post ) firefighters just got you to ‘hike’ them ( or meet with them ) out at the Yarnell site… and they are ( apparently ) so afraid to be ‘identified’ they made sure to not even take any kind of ‘group photo’?
And these are the firefighters who want to know where to go look for the ‘coverup’?
People who are still ‘afraid’ to acknowledge they are even ‘interested’ in what really happened at Yarnell?
Perhaps all they need to do is just look in the mirror.
By the way… if any of these 7-10 firefighters are at all confused about the essence of the ‘coverup’ allegations… then apparently they don’t even know how to use ‘Google’.
Even if this public forum about Yarnell didn’t exist… a simple ‘Google’ for the words “Yarnell Fire Coverup” produces THOUSANDS of ‘hits’ with direct links to the many, many mainstream media articles that have always been reporting details about the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Coverup’ since day one.
We have certainly uncovered more ‘coverup’ evidence than most here on this particular public forum… but it’s not like many others haven’t also been doing the same thing all along.
Try it yourself.
Just ‘Google’ “Yarnell Fire Coverup”.
Even just the first ‘Top 10’ hits for that search phrase will give you a pretty good summary ( before you even get to any InvestigativeMEDIA hit results ).
Actually… if someone is even too lazy to type the three words “yarnell fire coverup” into Google… tell them to just click the following link and the same ‘search’ will be automatically performed FOR them…
https://www.google.com/search?as_q=yarnell+fire+coverup&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=
Joy,
Please tell that stupid lazy fuck he doesn’t have to read all 35,000, he just has to read mine. 🙂
Okay, let’s see if we can simplify it for him, special, because he is obviously a special case.
The GMIHC either ignored or disregarded almost all of the wildland firefighting rules at once that have been developed to keep them safe over more than 100 years at the cost of hundreds of lives.
That simple and easily identifiable fact at least deserved honorable mention in the SAIR by the SAIT. And the fact they didn’t mention it, makes their report a “cover up.”
Now…it can’t get much simpler than that unless that stupid lazy fuck you have been talking to wants me to gift wrap the obvious for him, put a bow on it and give it to him for his fuckin’’ birthday. How old is he anyway…about 10?
Oh…and one more thing. That was just an EXAMPLE…there are lots more were that came from, but I don’t have time to hold that stupid fucks hand and spoon feed him, I am working on my MOAP!
Oh…and, “The GMIHC either ignored or disregarded almost all of the wildland firefighting rules at once that have been developed to keep Wildland Firefighters safe over more than 100 years at the cost of hundreds of lives.” was originally written by me so….(C, G. Olson, 2015) but I hereby authorize free use of my brilliant quote by those who participate on this thread.
And everyone except me seems to use, WFF, which doesn’t make any sense to me because Firefighter is just one fuckin’ word, not two, So, you can’t get two F’s out of it no matter how hard you try unless you just want to make one up, so it is”WF” which is an abbreviation for “Wildland Firefighter(s)”, okay?
Although if you really want to get down into the weeds. which I don’t, “Wildland” IS a made up word, so you could accurately use, “WLF”, but that would confuse people even more. So…
Hey dumbass, WF = wildfire WFF = wildland firefighter. As in “WildFire” and “Wildland FireFighter. You’ve never heard of an FFT1 or and FFT2? FireFighter Type 1 & 2. Get with the program, OK? You’re welcome.
By the way, your writing on the topics of hotshot tragedy fires is way too freaking good & on-point to waste your energy getting hung up on such basic generally frivolous terms people are using for acronyms.
It actually doesn’t really matter that much, but in my opinion that should help explain it. Besides, you do some of your best work when you’re provoked a little bit. Moap now!
With brotherly love,
Woodsman
Ah shit, man. I’m sorry for calling you names. I just finished reading above & saw the word “Gatlinburg” & I lost my cool. Now where did I put my damn anger management/ulcer pills…….
But before I take my pills:
The fucking GSM parkie IC to this day doesn’t believe he did anything wrong but dragging feet for 3 days to take care of a fire in the rocks. The new nationwide let it burn indoctrination told them to not put it out in the rocks for safety but instead draw a huge fucking box in the whole drainage instead….regardless of the time of year OR the potential and soon realized WX ( that means weather & it’s not negotiable) ………..Ooooops, there goes the neighborhood…… and regular folks DIED. And Joy’s new friends are apparently can’t figure out the cover ups? These are not the sharpest firefighters in the world. People believe what they want to believe regardless of the mountain of evidence I guess.
Reply to Woodsman post on
May 29, 2018 at 6:21 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I just finished reading above & saw the word
>> “Gatlinburg” & I lost my cool. Now where did
>> I put my damn anger management/ulcer pills…….
I know… right?
Geezus. Not NEARLY enough has been said/discussed about the ‘Chimney Tops Fire’ disaster and the ‘fuck-ups’ that eventually killed so MANY innocent people.
The actual ‘first response’ to Joy’s question above about some group of 7-10 FFs wanting to know where to read about “the coverup” should have been…
WHICH FIRE?
Just a few posts below… there is actually now WRITTEN proof that that the lead investigator for the Battlement Creek Fire fatalities was TOLD ( by Fire God Bill Buck himself ) that the ‘Hotshot Training Program’ on the Coconino was ‘partly to blame’ for the deaths at Battlement Creek… but that little ‘news flash’ was not mentioned in ANY report about the fatalities.
From the email that Gary Olson received from Battlement Creek lead investigator Robert ( Bob ) Mutch…
——————————————————
“I went to Flagstaff during the investigation to speak with more people, Bill Buck told me to close the door and sit down. I had known Bill for a long time and that may have been part of the reason he was open to talk. He said that the Hotshot program on the Coconino was partly at fault for what happened at Battlement. He felt that a can-do spirit may have become a RECKLESS spirit on the Mormon Lake crew. “
——————————————————–
YES! You get it! Thanks!
Although I was pretty excited about my “ Smoking Gun” email until RTS dropped his big bomb that went…BOOM.
I mean Gee Whiz…I thought it was pretty darn good to have the “Smoking Gun” email that proves how dirty they are, and then RTS drops his bomb by announcing two (2) Incident Commanders stood in plain sight in a fire operations center and casually thumbed through official government documents and selectively shredded some of them. And when they were challenged by witnesses who observed and protested this crime…they told the witnesses to fuck off and leave if they didn’t like it. I don’t know what to say? I am uncharacteristically at a loss for words to explain how I feel at this time.
So…let’s keep it simple and for now ignore the obvious federal felonies like Obstruction of Justice and Conspiracy and go right to the heart of what they did, which was violate 18 U.S. Code § 2071 – Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally,
(a) Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
(b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.
Spot on!.
Are you gonna take care of filing the 18 USC criminal charges in Federal Court?
I really do wish I could, unfortunately no one can because the statute of limitations has run out. but that doesn’t make it right, it just makes them some very lucky criminals.
Wtktt,
Thank you for the moral support & understanding.
In my experience, those who are “connected” utilize a system that protect others in the protected class of fire management from any public finding that makes them look bad, with a wink/wink nod/nod. It turns my stomach.
By the way, I’m 100% certain that I would have been able to “beat the charges” in defense of the 2 boys in the Chimney Tops 2 fire………..and I don’t even have a BAR license.
Woodsman,
Forgive me for dredging up your old GNP wounds. I thought you were working on that, so you would get over it. We will always remember, however, you know that you MUST get rid of those nasty triggers.
And yes indeed, people will always believe what they want to believe regardless of the mountain of evidence.
It’s up to those that want to carry on the task of the lifelong journey of exposing the truth in these wildland fire fatalities.
We need to keep up the good fight least we acquiesce and become just like them that cover it all up.
“If I were to remain silent, I’d be guilty of complicity.” Albert Einstein
“Violence does not necessarily take people by the throat and strangle them. Usually it demands no more than an ultimate allegiance from its subjects. They are required merely to become accomplices in its lies.”
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
“Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence.” Leonardo da Vinci
A shocking crime was committed on the unscrupulous initiative of few individuals, with the blessing of more, and amid the passive acquiescence of all. Tacitus
Though opposition is a hopeless task, acquiescence would be worse. Thoma M. Disch
Following the Way of the Warrior is the last bulwark against total slavery. S.H. Verstappen
The problem with modern society is that there are too many order takers, and too few true warriors. If we fail in becoming warriors then the grim future George Orwell predicted in his last days will surely come to pass: “Imagine a boot stomping on a human face, forever.”
S.H. Verstappen
Without warriors among a population, that population becomes a herd, and like all herds, inevitably led to slaughter.
S.H. Verstappen
Warriors are the grassroots leaders around whom disgruntled citizens will gather and unite to provide a unified front against injustice.
S.H. Verstappen
I promise to work on it……..if you promise to never quote-bomb my posts again. Deal?
Oh, and I’m not exactly sure how one “gets over” being angry about a pattern that spans decades of criminal gross negligence by fire management that ends up killing people once they learn it to be true….and in the case of Chimney Tops, it was innocent CIVILIANS that suffered death.
Thanks for you concern, friend. Seriously.
Woodsman,
One “gets over it” by keeping up the ‘good fight.’ I’m still dealing with feculence from the 1985 Butte Fire and the 1990 Dude Fire and everything else in between …
Jesus Christ and dealing with it head-on talking and sharing and writing about it has the only way for me.
Deal! I promise to work on it as well and promise to never quote-bomb your posts again.
Or at least to cut way back …
That means like more than a few right? I always like to quote sources because I am not as intelligent as you. .
I wanted to appeal to your Warrior standing My Friend and give the proper credit where it is due.
Well, I think we’re on the same page but maybe our interpretation of the concept of “getting over it” are different. Getting over it to me means putting it the past, burying deep, & moving on. I think I know what you mean now. I too am disappointed in what you’ve had to put up with fighting the good fight….which has been for a much longer period of time than yours truly.
As you can see, I talk about it…sometimes angrily & with profanity. That’s my way. I just can’t put it away somewhere & forget about it. Gotta get it out.
I was more just teasing & trying to make a funny at your extensive quotations. Do as you want, old timer. I know you mean good things for me & all us poor bastards putting up with the shameful side of our vocation in order to do what we love & believe in.
PS: I’m shocked at the seemingly few I ever hear speak up & ask hard questions to management. What happened to free & critical thinkers? Just listen to Joy’s account of her latest interaction with firefighters…they are honestly totally in the dark about the lies put out in the reports? Really? facepalm…………
Pps: thanks for the complement. I’m a fair to middlin in some areas & a total dumbass in others. It’s weird. Kinda like the brilliant guy who couldn’t ever achieve a whole lot as far as jobs go. I used to worry about it. Now I just roll with it. It’s just me. Ha!
Dear Woodsman,
I have been slaving away at my MOAP and I just took a little break to check in with my friends and confidants to see how everyone is doing because I live all of you soooo much!
I don’t think I will disappoint you…this time at least. I am already up to 8000 words, although some of them have been copied and pasted from the Fountain of all knowledge…Wikipedia.
I am now busy editing it and I am officially calling it my last chapter, of which book…I can’t say for sure?
XOXOXO
WHOOPS
“love” not live.
Wait…so are you sayin’ WFF actually stands for Wild Fire Firefighters?
And Wildland doesn’t have anything to do with it? My bad.
But isn’t Wildfire only one word? So wouldn’t still be just WF and not WFF? As in “Wildfire Firefighter?”
Just askin’?
RTS’ eyes are goin’ to glaze over if he tries to read it. But…heads up, I write about him in it, so he is going to have to at least scan it. 🙂
Oh…and one more thing. I only speak LFO so no, I don’t understand that other jumbo jumbo about FFI or FF2 etc. So…
Gary,
You posted: “Please tell that stupid lazy fuck he doesn’t have to read all 35,000, he just has to read mine. 🙂”
Without actually counting, I think that at lease about 25,000 of those posts are yours. Just saying …
Or combo late night wee morning Joy and Gary combos 😳
I stopped doing those as much or at least trying
Gary…that lazy one is 10?
Kids today are smarter than a lot of us so maybe…
Anyways glad to see you working on a moap vs Moab…
Yes…but this kid doesn’t sound like one of the smart ones. Just sayin…
In other words…I don’t think he is the brightest crayon in the box.
Yes…but truthfully, that stupid lazy fuck would only have to read a couple of dozen of mine if he wanted to exclude my editorializing and extraneous fluff.
That stupid lazy fuck might have enough energy to manage that if someone would be willing to separate them for him?
Well…this has been fun, but I really have to get back to work on my most brilliant comment to date, my latest MOAP.
The fuckin’ thing isn’t goin’ to write itself and there are obviously at least some WLF who need my help out there! So…I got to get crackin’.
Why is it a cover up?
One simple sentence
“God had a different plan that day”…
The real cover up is failing to identify the 10 and 18 that caused the crew to fail.
80% of IM over the years have discussed those very issues.
Failure to just stay in the black. Failure to communicate the location of the crew.
Failure to get authorization from Command to move crew..
LCES Failed to use.
The investigation failed to call a spade a spade.
One simple fact we would not have 19 dead if they would have stayed in the black……………………………………………
https://photos.app.goo.gl/9DgdhP2wb4qjNZp76
Navajo Lake Utah
John Eckert—retired Fire Warden and his neighbors had alot to share…but one friend that ate with us here told us all about the Helms place…I wish I knew his name…blanking but maybe someone in the world knows…
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Uj2ecjCvUeMv8bVZ2
if I never shared…Sonny was like Spiderman on the mountains…he would just walk right up…no safety harness or anything…
I bet at times he wished he had a safety harness to drop fast down when he came upon this though:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xFXLdOkpQbDntsXj1
That is one big beehive.
This is an email from Tex asking me to post for him- he is unable to post:
I am sorry for the delay Tex— just now going through many emails today.
TO POST TO INVESTIGATIVEmedia— (copy and paste method)
Tex:
Thu, May 17, 2018 at 1:07 PM
it’s a hard go against the powers-that-be whether it’s government or industry they had the billions and we have only a tiny voice but a few might hear
—————————–
Fri, May 18, 2018 at 3:04 PM
As a firefighter you should know that your blood content of pfoa and pfoi are high above the average person.. the reason being your exposure to retardant chemicals. The government allowed is 70 parts per trillion in water. Teflon Manufacturing has caused groundwater pollution of these chemicals so Dupont are being sued because of this pollution. What do these toxic chemicals do to the human body? Some known things are higher cancer rates an increase in cholesterol in the blood system. Clogged arteries are a lot of what we see as a result of these chemicals. Pregnant women can expect a child with diminished learning ability and behavioral problems. The immune system is also diminished. Who knows what else that is unknown yet about these chemicals and how they ruin our health It gets worse when these are combined with fluorine and even more toxic so that at least 7,000 known toxic chemicals are created. So these big companies that produce your retardant that regularly dump on Wildland forest fires good Reason to hide they are secret ingredients from you. I really suspect that once you understand the truth of how they compromise your health, like they compromised the lives of the 17 young fireman that died due to the care less actions of marsh and steed and others, you as a fireman will be seeking compensation. there’s big money in that retardant business.
Dr. Ted Putman has said retardant often times has very little or no effect in a Wildland Fire. And during Yarnell you can see that the retardant had little or no effect on the fire. How could it in Winds of 45 miles an hour and Flames laying down 100 ft and Embers flying ahead like Swarms of bees. We were getting hot e m b e r s on our car windshield more a mile from the fire that day. Common Sense is a deterrent to making money out of excessive and unnecessary retardant , something we saw at the Yarnell Hill fire we’re over 500,000 gallons of that poisonous retardant where dropped about the village. the same amount was a dropped again in another fire next to the town in 2015. Will people wake up to the fact that about 25% of the population of Yarnell was plagued by the after effects of that retardant?. Statistics don’t lie but nobody wants to hear them because it makes the forest service and retarded droppers look like murderers. We need our heroes after all and we sure don’t want to taint their name sake. But truth will win out on this matter just as the detestable Liars of the cigarette corporations were found out. My dad always said it wasn’t so much the tobacco that kill people but it was the chemicals they were spraying on the tobacco. Well the truth is the chemicals did add to the problem but but cigarette smoke or any type of smoke, especially that of the retardant smoke that the wildland firefighter and City firefighters breathe it is a health hazard. Like the uranium Miner, firefighter deserves compensation for the ruination of his health. Those bosses that are killing people and going along with these retardant companies hiding and Truth deserve to have their checks and hero worship Diminished. And that poor Warrior out there fighting the wildfires and the City Home burnings and so forth need to have their paychecks at least doubled if not tripled for the health disaster they will encounter doing their works.
Fri, May 18, 2018 at 3:15 PM
I meant to say on that hot Embers we’re hitting our windshield as your photos of that day showed. That windshield was covered with Embers and yet we were over a mile maybe 2 miles from the fire at that time you took the photo. With a situation like that it makes no sense dropping tons of retardant except that they’re making millions off the retardant. And it certainly makes no sense getting your men trapped in a canyon with Embers flying like that. Wildland firefighters got to know that you don’t drop off in a canyon you can’t get out of with Embers flying like that and no possible way to get through the brush and in any hurry at all. Well Willis was wrong in that statement that firefighters could go through stuff like that where civilians couldn’t. We saw that the Wildland Granite Mountain HotShots couldn’t get through it. Even a bear couldn’t get through it. Also it should have read 25% of the Yarnell population was killed buy that retardant.
Fri, May 18, 2018 at 5:10 PM
hey Joy you see those chemicals cause behavior problems hopefully those poison they used to make Plastics and those poisons that are in fire retardant they are mainly the ones I mentioned that are causing problems you see these school shootings escalating and kids that you would never expect to do a shooting like those that are just done the one in Texas. I think doctors and government understand this show my pictures hidden from the people
Fri, May 18, 2018 at 5:26 PM
Well you can see why we’re both medical disasters. You had a bad run with the doctor but that retardant certainly escalated your health problems and came close to killing me but proving it even though science has proven that it causes elevated cholesterol you still have the people doctors and scientists that back the money boys are feeding them.
Thu, May 24, 2018 at 11:58 AM
Definitely know that that retardant is death warrant. the forest service must know these things at least those that are at the top should know these things. Those hero Pilots that flew those jumbo Jets might as well have dropped an A-bomb on Yarnell. The death toll keeps mounting. But it’s not only the death toll it’s those people like myself that are hanging on but ill. By rights all those people should be prosecuted for these many deaths and illness that they have caused. At least the A-bomb would have been merciful for quick death on some but then it left plenty suffering afterwards. Yeah I can understand how that they hate you, because you’re Going after the heroes of the city. there are heroes even if they are liars according to the public. People want to believe their side of the story and they’ve been brainwashed and Retardant rain-washed as well. I’ve got some pretty good plywood so I’m going to work on building my coffin. I want to be dumped out here on this desert in some of those sand dunes. I don’t care to be buried among those so-called Heroes.
——————————-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/388eiO2LhvAMshCu2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rNFs1EGQyvubeqrs2
my tracfone pic on 6.30.13 with real time TIME and fire pic
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7MKfdea8xO3yZVUS2
this is the original area the GMHS did their work on June 30 2013 and also the lunch spot area
and the tiny 4 bushes that were on fire when Marsh and the hikers first arrived—
I wonder how much of the jurisdiction actions on a bedded down fire can be kept so quiet…I get the fight fire with fire lingo you fire folks but this area had signs EVERYWHERE —–BURN BAN signs—–
what hypocrites that State can put signs up for us not to have a campfire or smoke a cig etc. but they can calculate a fire and start more fires in very dry dense fuel and enough on the wind driven shit because I have all that calculated in and I was THERE and can tell you the times the wind relieved us and hit our faces…
so yeah I wish the very state I grew up in can GROW UP themselves and take responsibility for their errors versus blaming the homeowners and etc…I think if you met each homeowner and heard the REAL stories you may GROW UP
and maybe not…I have not grown up and my bday is July 1st and turn 46 and yet I have alot of life to learn still…
shoot 2018 has shown me a roller coaster ride for sure…at times the whiplash I got I thought maybe the next 6 months I better go into hibernation except it is not the RIGHT THING TO DO—I know I have to pursue to push facts to the forefront…and become a power team…hard for independent stubborn me to think of me on any team…or any partnership…yet here I am 😉
Sonny got a pc and plans to participate on IM this Summer 2018 and I said why bother…we are not going or getting anywhere on IM are we…like I said to Gary…or did I say anything Gary…seem pretty jumbled up—whistling past graveyards then on to first street than head North and doing it all again..??? hmmm…now I can see you say re-evaluation time or better yet like One Who Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest— medication time 😉 soft smiles.
I also note I calculated knowing someone in an unreal way yet I know from the start I was trying to build it right…
I don’t know…what do I know about life except take the punches or roll with the punches or just go with the flow…it seems the only way I can live life…is go with the flow…let life just unfold…what I tried to explain to the person was I wanted to make transitions for my life not for another but for myself…
I remember when I left with Sonny on and off on the trails locals were telling me they needed my help if I was gonna leave to go pioneer—call them or email them or jot stuff on zazzle . com /congress_arizona* and I did my best but I could not take the heaviness of some and HOW MUCH they could not handle it until it happened to me and my life then I thought I GOT WHAT THE HAD FACED so it made me a better person for the now and future…SHOWING or SHARING attention no matter how it is being shown…once you remove the attention in some way or manner it does take a moment to re-balance…especially when you become in a sense accustomed to it…
I want to thank you Rocksteady this week…you helped alot to show how to re-balance…
this image helped me bring me back to me
https://thearcanemaster.wordpress.com/2016/04/12/unfuck-yourself-the-assumptive-nature-of-get-over-it-culture/
Wtktt/RTS was a true angel too and Carol and Dr. Leroy A. and even Danielle helped me when I took a terrible (horrible) spill on the Weavers to avoid a car hitting me as they were on their cell distracted…in a heart beat she rescued me and nurtured the pains…My mom and brother got my humor going again…and E.E./A.E./M.P./A.E. and my husband prayed when at work or here at home and reassured me to stay focused to keep gathering or organize the photo data…I reassured the bleachers the 4 pages will remain quiet…I am not here to shake others facts to the front by sharing but always encourage others to do it FIRST HAND….
YFD has new public records policies—I just rolled the form to Ombudsman Garone to handle it because it is BOGUS…I was very pleased my gut instinct was right on…I figured so—-but it destroyed me this week not just another loss but the looks of so many faces…it hurt so deep…
it was so good to talk to Judy- Pete’s wife..the cancer is back
It is not every day you wake up and yawn and stretch and say
“Hey Cupcake, breakfast time” 🙂
and what’s on the menu Huggie Bear…
The norm sweetie pie….
Diamondback 😉
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mziRjZXYQsXA58QYA
Yet we ate all kinds of stuff during that six year pioneer sharing times…
to me ratters are the desert fish…the above pic is really me prepping the rattler…
and Sonny prefer open a can of pinto or soaking pintos over some options…yet we never had burnt bacon on the trails but if we did I am sure we would of just grin and ate it…
WOULD OF is would have Joy….
😉
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HPqTUkd4TLBCUH502
Sonny was mentioned in MacLean’s 5 year later on the melted pink ribbon he loacted on the 2 track which is now the observation deck
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MPVyY3gm1BxCJ42i6
Donut where he was reported to be—
one of the spots where we were on the 2 track road—-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mZgYrY1D9UyeQWAD3
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oM1A9xBySVag1i1i1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z4h3kcjLctapFq416
other areas we sat on 2 track June 30
oops…try again
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Zg2tBVcLiF10btut2
Joy,
Commenting on your photo and text above on your 5/25/18 2:49 AM post:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MPVyY3gm1BxCJ42i6
Donut where he was reported to be—
According to those on the 2016 YHF GMHS Family Staff Ride participants, the GMHS alleged “lookout” McDonough was on the rocky ridge just behind and above the old grader site.
Just saying …
Well the photo was taken on hike time with Neill family/Dr Ted Putnam and that was what Wayne said on that hike yet as eyewitness we saw him Donut in different areas nearing the old grader under a tall bush tree so I think we win as eyewitnesses watching it LIVE 6.30.13 vs SAIR/Staff Ride as we saw now identified Frisby too and HOW FAR his a tv went up the 2 track NOT LIKE IN FILM….
Joy,
It really makes much more sense from an empirical real world WF perspective to place a lookout atop the rocky knob directly behind and above the old grader site.
This site would have afforded him a much better vantage point AND much easier access and egress instead of battling with the thick brush and boulders.
Then again, the GMHS supervisors left a 3rd year Crewmember on his own to make that decision (unless they told him to specifically use that closer rocky knob).
He was allegedly chosen as their lookout because Robert Caldwell, the usual GMHS lookout, felt sorry for McDonough because he was so sick from being sooooo hung over that day.
Curiously, it is unknown if he was ever blood tested as a ‘control’ to compare to the 19 men who perished, 13 of which had low to extremely high BAC values in their bloodstreams. And if they did, it was never acknowledged by the SAIT in their alleged “Factual” SAIR whether or not they even considered and discussed whether the 19 that perished had the BAC values reflected in their respective autopsy reports.
In a few words, it would have been a much more logical AND sensible lookout point even for an alleged “lookout” that made the conscious choice to choose the old grader site as a “Deployment Zone” (twice) rather than the good black a few hundred yards up the hill below the GMHS.
What would you expect from someone who considers Fire Order#10 to be “old and Hillbilly” and therefore consider yourself “smarter than that.”
Just saying …
Good evening sir-
I am sure you do realize your comment about directly behind and above the old grader did sport other colored hats that day there but there was no visual the hikers saw that were black…
Frisby can for sure guide you to where his atv was as well as I can on the GOOGLE EARTH map or take the hike when I go with Mayhew…
yet I can verify that we did not see Donut on that area
but we did see his black hat back and forth in the old grader area after 12:30pm…
and to me it came off like a person trying to get to the best shade because that sun was brutal that day, sir.
Common sense was not used very much on the fire industry’s tactics
so I am one who would not agree that in the old grader what you think the staff ride is placing out is exactly spot on…
since you took the staff ride—hike it with me some day and show me what you were taught on staff ride and I will teach you what was shown that day as the eyewitness—but I understand if you are not allowed to talk about your hike…
others from IM have taken the hike with me…actually if you do the hike with me during the death of the Summer I will give you some special data over time that will probably stimulate you to maybe even write your own papers and presentations solely based on Saturday vs. Sunday…as you say —-
just saying
which is probably something I say too over time 😉 —just saying—
The south side tiny hill was not bad at all—had its vegetation but it also had the shaded tall tree bush there too away from that piercing sun, sir—-
Donut was not the usual “lookout” as we the hikers learned that on a hike with one of the loved ones who long ago stated I can state his name so Grant Scott McKee did tell us that his nephew Robert was the one who did lookout on fires…
I never brought it up here based on sensitivity of the data and how that must feel if one never knew that and now knows—
how it may affect some of the ones who loved him alot so I never talked on here about it but “yes” that I have heard too, sir.
I do not get to this day WHY Donut ( Brendan James McDonough— a seasonal Wildland crewmember of GMHS who began there 2011 ) was chosen
except many of bar rooms and fire and/or weather conferences and Prescott by Walmart IN and OUT burger patrons and Bucky Casino’s and folks from some oil and lube place and Dodge York and Home Depot and Yavapai College old students and old construction folks of the Prescott area and people at the banks and stores/restaurants—
they talked
and well they did not tell the hikers very much good stuff like we got on many of the other men
and in those talks I can say what you state on SUBSTANCE thye mentioned—
some told us he should of been getting same day results from Donut on diagnostic labs they felt should of been part of the investigation part post-incident to figure out why and how he was slipped into that spot June 30…it should of been part of the investigation part…
HOWEVER the incident was not investigated by outside folks, sir so what you get is this tragedy hit too close to hometowns
(sensitivity heightened and you get labelled if you want to talk about YHF)
so the entire fire and aftermath did not see the proper look at (or true discussions) —
except I can say; historically, which one truly has-
????????
I actually hesitated to even post this above for the sensitivity factor but if I keep doing that sir than we will not learn the lessons of that weekend…like I said there is more than the Go Pro in the Sesame to Shrine area and the sooner those folks share —the better life will be…for alot of us….
Why did Steed and Marsh make those decisions on Donut 6.30.13
??????
because what I have learned in life…some folks can really fold from tragedy and give up
but look at all Donut has done since…he is a Public Figure in Prescott, Arizona…with almost 12,000 followers online—
I think Willis had more followers on his video coverage that really sucked alot of us in was Willis’s media coverage…I know it woke us up the hikers. His video was one of the key factors of why we when called or emailed or asked—hiked you all— not yet have we denied anyone a hike even in the hottest monsoon months no matter who you were or where you laid in this even took disabled folks up there and we always said you can record us internally hidden from us or externally known…I think that says something good but you see people who do presentations who make you shut the recording OFF while they speak YHF…why???
I have nothing to gain or hide…My family and friends and most on IM know my struggles so yeah I do that not because I want to bring attention to my flaws but because I want the process to be an open book…if I can share to you and tell you where to gain data I do…If I cannot it is because someone is reaching folks in the right areas so we can pull it all out the data in the right way…or how I got the data…most are non-commercials that only I asked for it…so if it leaked out then I am ultimately responsible I would think…
I too have heard from people who interviewed us that interviewed Donut that he was not up to par 6.30.13 (even heard hungover as well)
Sonny passing the men 6.30.13 as he stated those men have the look like they are on their death march … never in my wildest thoughts did I think that could ever happen what Sonny muttered as we passed them but I did think a few looked okay but the rest looked tired and spent and over heated and I felt bad because I had already took my layers of shirts off to just my thin grey tank top…and I felt guilty I was wearing that why they were wearing thick heavy clothing…in that terrible sun that day…
Many have different views on BAC values and the autopsy reports but your curiosity was the same from people in Prescott…they wondered how come he was not tested…I would think because 19 of his crew members just died…sensitivity factor…
I wish someone asked him in an interview why Donut you said the rules were hillbilly….it really was something that has bothered many….
I pray that all the folks on the fire and the loved ones and all affected by YHF have found meaning and strength from the tragedy…
some still to this day use IM as their PTSD trigger points publicly yet YOU GO PULL THE foias and public records and see how calculated some text/email messages are said about IM behind the scenes especially on you sir and Gary…Some are very devious…sad to see…
For me personally it was neat though to see the paper trails of our old IM poster EN…she really put alot of energy and time and effort towards the YHF…I wish I did not have to pull it out that way and she could of shared like originally was shared would have happened but that is how the world can be some times…I probably learned alot more doing it my way…vs. waiting for personal contact of incoming data from EN….
oh well…
I will not judge Donut then or now…I have been at times hard on him because I know he knows more and I wish I can tell you how but that was the only reason I ever got snippy on IM at times…
Taking Steps in the Right Direction
That is my prayer…
I know we are all human beings and we all have some curvature to our character we struggle with…and some of my areas I seem to want to think they are okay even though I know it does not help in the world’s way of thinking as enhancing to the Divine purpose…I have suppressed for too long so some areas are my growing pains at the moment…I had to actually open up and feel for one area but then began to give me severe nightmares in old areas that was bringing me down versus up and then this week again the IM folks and my Northern Arizona folks truly snapped me out of the rut…I have never felt better…Feel solid and purely happy…so I needed all that what I call concerned crud …to be where I am now…
😉
1 Corinthians 13:4 really helped too…
Beautiful Surprises Can Bloom from Tragic Seeds
today my emails flooded so you will see if you go to email me…its gone…but I did not get to save 300 of them but I got the jist…Yarnell community was alerting the desert walker today was Chief Ben Palm’s move out of Yarnell date to live up where he came from awhile back—Dewey/Mayer….so maybe he will be a administration chief who stays in Dewey or maybe he will drive that donated hummer on taxpayer bucks from Dewey to Yarnell…who knows..I have a public records request in and learned they changed their policies…strange things are surfacing up there…so much so I am meeting with 6 to 14 firefighters this week on the very topics YHF/Chief Ben Palm so we will see….one was noted to report they wrote the newspaper but Dennis Wagner stated he received nothing so who knows…only time will tell…will the data be on the chief or YHF…
wishing always that all of us are built on a strong foundation with unshakable peace…
I have learned this that we are not always meant to know the why behind the wisdom.
we are all interconnected or connected…
and life is meant to be beautiful…
I have had horrific stuff over time happen
but I know this…the togetherness here
on here and off here is really genuine…
thank you…
I have learned that the beauty of the human spirit is that it is so strong; it can overcome almost anything…
I have learned that love and kindness really do matter
—that even when horrible things are done to one another, we can still band together and find forgiveness.
I learned that for sure this week.
Hatefulness does not have to exist, and the absence of it during something like this does not tarnish the memory of the person we mourn; it makes it, and us, stronger….
I am tired of burying people I care for…I have been doing it way too long now…funeral after funeral…wears one down…
We are an experiment in spiritual evolution.
Things that happen to us hurt, I know. I would not be pretentious enough to sit here and speak about rainbows and flowers when life can be so ugly and mean. I’ve been there….
I have free will…so I choose to be happy from this day forward…
My heart is wanting to share to you sir…that you and I know both without Holly we would of never probably interacted…it took the views of another to peek curiosity to the surface and I am one to share as well Sonny will tell you we always viewed you as the academic who lived and breathed 10 & 18
yet since we both the hikers can state you have showed some powerful voice to power messages over time that we actually can feel the three dimensional picture
and we hope IM is not your only avenue to express and speak…I was at a conference where I heard you present and you are larger than life how the crowd who was normally cell surfing either put their cells down and you had their full attention or they were taking pics and videos of you speak…You have a gift there…it was very cool to watch you captivate the folks…some speakers leave one heavy lidded craving coffee but noone even stepped out to use the bathroom…cool 🙂
I do have a rather long list this Summer of hiking FFs…so if you are reading this not one hike gets more data than another…please note I will for the first time NOT BE in Prescott for the 5th Anniversary and that has always been the time I bounce into you loved ones…so if you were wanting to reach me just snail mail me at PO BOX 572 Congress Arizona 85332 because I am temporary off the email area…ok…
A quarrel is like buttermilk: once it’s out of the churn, the more you shake it, the more sour it grows.
― Irish proverb
Miss Joy,
I thought that you can talk on non-commercial data as long as you do not make a dime on it yourself
Yeah…been here before…
I think WTKTT chimed in on this topic ages ago…
and I think I ended it with something like…
Why don’t you, sit right back,
And I, I may tell you, a tale.
A tale of three, little pigs,
And a big, bad, wolf. …
Well I’m huffing, I’m puffing, I’ll blow your house in.
Huffing, puffin, blow your house in.
Huffing, puffin,…
Until I have an active lawyer in Arizona that goes up against certain govt industries I rather place myself in the black , sir. I do not want to take undue risks…however I can tell you where to go get your own records…if that helps 😉
I noticed I need to state would have vs would of… Sorry—correction…I am getting better over time—right Diane—I think this chapter I did it about a baker dozen times —
see:
“My heart is wanting to share to you sir…that you and I know both without Holly we would of never probably interacted…it took the views of another to peek curiosity to the surface and I am one to share as well Sonny will tell you we always viewed you as the academic who lived and breathed 10 & 18”
but Gary has done this too RTS- how come I get the pickings on…yeah that came off so tattle telling like…
I am guilty RTS— I will work on that and “don’t forget” should be “always remember” and my 10 & 18…
see:
Gary Olson says
MAY 20, 2018 AT 8:08 PM
So…Ed’s mission was to go in to California and use a chain saw to cut out all of the dead and diseased wood from the biggest fuckin’ tree in the USFS inventory. This assignment would of course piss everybody off due to decades of long standing interagency relationships and very close friendships among all of the FIRE heads of state.
Donut’s blood alcohol level
on 6-30-13:
Following the burnover when firefighters were finalizing reports etc for the day I believe that possibly Tony Sciatta (sp?) told doghnut to go home to his mom thus preventing him to be subjected to any blood or other testing.
this image helped me bring me back to me
https://thearcanemaster.wordpress.com/2016/04/12/unfuck-yourself-the-assumptive-nature-of-get-over-it-culture/
to verify….clarity…very tired I was—I was posting image only
had no clue an article was tied to image.
Yet I did not know I did so much rambling and the point to last night was not met-
I was looking for Saturday’s fire photo
so let me go do tat now
My apologies.
I always tell myself
do not go to IM after dark to avoid errors when tired but I did
My bad.
I want to reflect to that weekend June 28 thru June 30 2013
As I look at my photo here
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eNiodSCKQ7lFZrEi2
as we left our parking spot next to McCrary on Foothills…the embers blowing all over…the smell…the heat…the heat stroke…the extremem dry throats from that hike that day and as we drove away this was our view in photo above of Glen Ilah and Bob Kramer’s home on right as we exited on to highway 89…
Many think GMHS State Park trail is the way the men went up 6-30-13 as I met good fella with great beard colors on last Monday (where I ran/hiked/talked the trail)
the new FIRST TIME FULL TIME GMHS State Park Ranger: Gus Parrish
(https://www.facebook.com/gus.parrish)—
he was on the trails…he represents the park perfect and wish him longevity there.
However Mike Rowe and his story with some widows shared some factual errors so I am here to set it STRAIGHT…
you are welcome BLM Bruce Olsen and the prison crews…
THERE WAS INDEED fire wise and fire breaks and grants and prescribed burns performed out there over time and throughout Yarnell and administration to the Shrine Maria Luissa Wasson recently confirmed that
and there is legal documents you can obtain to PROVE that as well
so DO NOT PLACE TO THE WORLD as I shared to the ranger that it was so many decades unless you are adding the FACTS where the state park bowl and the Maughan Ranch parcel then YES they did not do their areas as well as NU-Hart LLC leading out to Lone Ocotillo Rd out by Acri—Shame on their recklessness and negligence and endangerment…
To state NOTHING or NONE was done—LIES!!!!
Selectively areas did indeed see dozer lines and fire breaks and thinning and in one area they did cut alot IN TOWN nearing Hope Way but they never REMOVED the debris leaving it thick and dense with dead material stacked real dense—GO SEE IT TODAY AS IT STILL WAS THERE YEARS LATER AND NO IDEA WHEN THEY WILL REMOVE IT…
I know my terrain and there is documents to PROVE I A M 100% spot on NOT this tv show PAY FORWARD with Mike Rowe and their message on topic…that is a TRUE mislead…
—————————————————
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KazArmrsLQnxpxn63
if John Dougherty can go to his archival film and look at the time we were up at this spot then it would help set a more appropriate time to June 30 2013 pics of my KODAK EasyShare Z990 Digital Camera photos is my thought…
But then Bruce Hanna of ADOSH- his watch may be the best evidence to say appx 12 hours…instead of AM it is PM…what do you think wtktt?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/euSSsXNuTYtq9Sf93
his watch says 2:07pm Sept 18 2013 and the camera states Wednesday, September 18, 2013, 2:15 AM
Reply to Joy A Collura post on May 25, 2018 at 1:34 am
>> Joy A Collura asked…
>>
>> what do you think wtktt?
The watch on his wrist definitely reads ‘2:07 PM’
The timestamp by the camera is defintely ‘2:15 AM’
From the EXIF metadata embedded in the photograph…
————————————————————————————
Image Name: 100_0430.JPG
Dimensions: 1536×2048 ( pixels )
Date Taken: 9/18/2013 2:15 AM
Camera Maker: EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY
Camera model: KODAK Easy Share Z990 D
Exposure Time: 1/2000 sec
Flash mode: Flash, compulsory
————————————————————————————-
So yea… it is probably safe to say that KODAK Easy Share Z990 was timestamping photos 11 hours and 52 minutes BEHIND real time.
( 8 minutes shy of a full 12 hours )
but then some pics are way off like the GMHS going up the mountain photo
how can one determine the time there
so the camera was done/damaged to really make a time…
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WjiXPpWivBqv62vp1
Reply to Joy A Collura post on May 25, 2018 at 6:33 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> but then some pics are way off like the
>> GMHS going up the mountain photo
That’s why I said it is only ‘probably safe to say’.
I remember this issue now with your KODAK Easy Share camera.
That’s the one you said you dropped down a mine shaft, or something.
It seems to have always been getting the DATE right… but unable to
consistently hold a TIME value.
Like every time you powered it on ( or for EVERY photograph taken? ) it would generate some RANDOM time value ( but still gets the DATE right ?? ). Weird.
The ‘GM going up the mountain’ photo…
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WjiXPpWivBqv62vp1
From the EXIF metadata embedded in the photograph…
————————————————————————-
Image Name: files (549).JPG
Dimensions: 1073×1313 ( pixels )
Date Taken: 6/30/2013 5:57 AM
Camera Maker: EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY
Camera model: KODAK Easy Share Z990 D
Exposure Time: 1/800 sec
Flash mode: Flash, auto, red-eye
————————————————————————-
In this case… the ‘date’ is correct but the ‘timestamp’ now appears to only be a FEW hours ‘behind real time’ ( and not a full 11 hours and 52 minutes ).
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> how can one determine the time there
I guess you really can’t trust the timestamp embedded in the photos for ANY of those KODAK Z990 photos.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> so the camera was done/damaged to really make a time…
I guess so.
Thank you
Sonny has no fear wtktt
you said large beehive but to him that is nothing…
Much like a grizzly bear would do to get his honey…Sonny as well has a liking or licking for that too…
In the 6 years he always had quality honey …
Pinto beans and onions and potatoes and jalapenos and flapjack mix and eggs and jasmine rice and we grew the veggies with ( https://www.amazon.com/Augason-Farms-Vegetable-Garden-Variety/dp/B00LBGQGUU ) seeds
and cowboy coffee and even at one phase we either drank TEXJOY coffee (texjoy.com) or or I had Medaglia D’Oro, Cafe Bustelo, El Pico…
Reply to Joy A Collura post on
May 25, 2018 at 9:19 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> Sonny has no fear wtktt
I know.
Sonny is the absolute walking, breathing epitome of that old Irish saying…
“Féach orm anois … ach féachaint orm go tapa…. ‘Ciall, ní fheicfidh tú a leithéid dom arís.”
“Watch me now… but watch me quick….’Cus shure you’ll never see the likes of me again.”
I will have to input here. No photos of any bodies can be released to any one except the investigators.
This has been don for many years for the benefit of the families to not see the release in some media printing. Federal and state Law for any employees killed in the line of duty..
Ok..I will have to state to you Bob Powers that I can empathize with such input you just shared yet as they are well known to do…they can redact areas where body placements were with redaction removal but to block the rest out especially the 3d FARO images is not correct in my way of thinking so lessons can be learned as to what was at the scene from equipment to burn scars to what was there at that moment because I have spoken to folks of the too many chaos actions of that night so to me they royally screwed up allowing anyone and I mean anyone near those bodies and somewhere below it was discussed and soon I will further talk on it but we had a loss this week…makes 31 in 2018…and I am dealing with a bogus FD thinking they can ammend their public records policy to suit them so Ombusdman here I went…the looks of certain 15 folks I once poured sweat and tears for gave me the most deep hated look so SOMEONE is feeding these folks lies but God assures me His plan is in work and if I have ANY concerns with any other human being do not expect them to hold the weight give it to Him…He will take care of it…so it healed me even knowing regular daily folks to my life because I was seeing myself shift out of wanting to do fire data…I am sorry to Ellen because she wants to hike to the GMHS alligator tree this next week and I have no way to get up there for that but enjoy the time…I will share my pals in Greer Concho/ Camp Verde/Rim Rock/Cornville dropped their schedules and drove all the miles without any hesitation and they asked what they can do and wrong number Charlie said lets take Aguila Leo the homeless man out to eat at the Aguila Mexican restaurant and so we all did and then we bought the 2 other homeless men some stuff so to hug Leo and spending time with him made me happy…filled me up with an overwhelming amount of joy. Then to later have the group text me thank you for the time and singing as 1 guy has a stomach aneurysm and not sure how much longer he has but he felt the love from it and Steven said “Joy, the kind of love you give out is infectious that I just am so excited to take your love you share and give out to others. It is so selfless…it is so good. Today I am speaking Summer Safety so heading to see the kids…oh and today my perimeter cameras showed REAL kids playing baseball in my culdesac. That was an old school view. We dont even have kids on our block but it brought me joy to see that. It is so RARE to see kids playing…I was so happy…
Here is a good, relevant article in the ongoing private versus Government investigator discussions
Two Teams of Investigators, Two Versions of the Same Incident
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/03/nyregion/two-teams-of-investigators-two-versions-of-the-same-incident.html
Just bypass the Communist New York Times attempt to get you to subscribe
Reply to Woodsman post on May 20, 2018 at 8:49 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Willis is an obvious charlatan & fraud.
>> I still cringe thinking about that press conference.
Me too.
>> I’ve tried to give him the benefit but it was just too far off the charts bizarre.
I agree. He really did come across as some kind of military-jarhead/preacher-wannabee nutjob in a moment when the WORLD was still anxiously expecting some reasonable INFORMATION about how 19 men who were supposed to be wildland fire experts could all burn to death in a box canyon.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> At the risk of sliding off topic, let me ask you something.
>> Do you believe that GM deployed together like the reports show…
>> with the bodies positioned as they have been presented?
Yes.
There is a lot of dubious ‘testimony’ associated with the Yarnell tragedy, but I have always believed that the ‘reports’ you can absolutely ‘take to the bank’ are those written field reports coming from DPS Officers and Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’ crew members Eric Tarr, Charles Main and pilot Clifford Brunsting.
ALL of their ‘written testimony’ indicates that from the moment they first ‘saw’ the ‘fire shelters’… they were, in fact, all ‘in a tight group’ and ‘close together’.
Everything Officer Tarr says in the following part of his written testimony indicates the same… and I think if there had been any ‘anomalies’ or some large degree of ‘separation’ for one or more of the shelters… he would have said so.
From Officer Eric Tarr’s written testimony…
———————————————————————————————————–
I saw the ranch house appear through the smoke and knew the Firefighters had said they were trying to get to a ranch house from their prior radio transmissions.
We began searching toward the Ranch house from the ridgeline when I located a group of deployed fire shelters off the nose of the aircraft.
I directed the pilot to the location of the fire shelters where we circled at low altitude. We attempted twice to land closer to the scene but the area was still hot with too much blowing ash and dust to land safely.
I advised Air Attack that we had located a group of multiple fire shelters with no movement or signs of visible life. I also gave Air Attack the GPS coordinates for the location of the shelters.
Ranger 58 was approaching our minimum for fuel at this point and located a safe landing zone approximately 500 yards from the shelters where we landed at approximately 1814.
I exited the aircraft north of the scene and hiked to the deployed shelters to start triage and medical treatment.
I approached the site where the shelters had been deployed at approximately 1825 hours. I approached this site from north to south.
As I got closer to the site I could hear voices coming from the area of the shelters. As I approached the shelters I observed multiple Firefighters who were obviously deceased and burnt black. I had not seen this from the air, but had been advised by Officer ( Charles ) Main that he had seen what appeared to be bodies at the site from the air. I walked into the shelter deployment site and determined that the voicesI had heard were coming from still functioning radios.
———————————————————————————————————
Officer Tarr was able to confirm all 19 fatalities very quickly, which is another indication that they were, in fact, all fairly ‘close together’ when he found them. If he had to go far afield just to check even one or two of the bodies… I believe he would have indicated this in his obvioust ‘detailed’ written report.
>> Woodsman also asked…
>>
>> What is the cross-shaped memorial marker in the rocks a
>> distance away from the deployment site and out of the
>> chute indicate?
It doesn’t ‘indicate’ anything.
The 411 on that ‘cross shaped memorial marker in the rocks’ is as follows…
A photo of that ‘cross in the rocks’ with a pair of boots at the base of it first appeared in that September 13, 2013 article about the Yarnell fire in ‘Outside Online’ magazine. That’s the article that was written by former Hotshot Kyle Dickman… who went on to write the first book about Yarnell entitled “On The Burning Edge”.
The PHOTO itself was taken by Sedona Fire District Battallion Chief Jayson Coil.
Coil had been ‘called up’ to be in Yarnell on the night of the tragedy itself to fill an order for an OSC ( Operations Section Chief )… and he arrived the next day along with some other firefighters from Sedona.
Jayson Coil is also a professional photographer.
At some point in the days that followed the tragedy, Jayson Coil was able to visit the deployment site with his cameras… and that is when HE first noticed that ‘cross marking’ in a boulder south of the deployment site.
He is the one who put that pair of BOOTS on the rock in front of it and then took the photo which would eventually accompany Kyle Dickman’s article.
What got confusing is when the same ‘cross in the rocks’ photo ended up part of the photos submitted to the SAIT by Darrell Willis.
People thought Darrell Willis was the one who had ‘noticed’ that ‘cross in the rocks’ and took the photo… but that was never the case. At some point, Jayson Coil GAVE Darrell Willis two of the photos that he took and somehow Darrell Willis thought they were important enough to include them along with the photos HE gave to the SAIT investigators.
The ‘cross in the rocks’ photo actually ‘disappeared’ from the online copy of Kyle Dickman’s article at some point when Jayson Coil pressed his ‘copyright’ on the photos and decided to put them up for SALE on his own ‘Jayson Coil Photography’ website… which is here…
Link to Jayson Coil photography and his ‘Granite Mountain’ page…
http://www.jaysoncoil.com/granitemountainihc
The Black/White version of his ‘cross in rock with boots’ photo is the first one on the upper left at the ‘gallery’ above. The original ‘color’ photo is in the middle of the second row.
Jayson Coil was also there at the deployment site when the FLAG was first raised after the pole was installed. Notice the photo that begins the second row of photos at the gallery above. It’s the photo that was used at the top of the SAIR document of the men ‘raising the flag’ at the deployment site. The SAIT did not credit Jayson Coil for his photo or mention him at all in the SAIR document.
These photos are all for SALE and there is a BUY button each one. The Black/White ‘cross in rock with boots’ photo sells starting at $6.00 for a 3.5″ x 5″ print on up to $11.00 for an 8×12. Same pricing for the ‘men raising flag’ photo that appeared at the top of the SAIR document.
>> Woodsman also asked…
>>
>> Do you have any evidence or opinion as to whether the bodies
>> of GM were repositioned after the fact & before investigators
>> were able to accurately document the fatality scene?
>> There certainly was ample opportunity for it to happen.
Yes… there was.
What really ‘went on’ that night out at the deployment site remains a mystery… and it was Cory Moser himself who told a news reporter that the ( 30-40 ?? ) FFs who were ‘spending the night out there’ had all been ‘sworn to secrecy’ about whatever the hell went on that night.
But that being said… I ( me, personally ) think that while the deployment site *may* have been ‘disturbed’ in any number of ways while those FFs were somehow allowed to trample all over it and place TARPS over all of the bodies in the middle of the night… it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the bodies themselves were moved and/or re-positioned in any significant way.
I truly believe the only ‘re-positioning’ of the bodies that ever took place were the minor movements that took place when DPS Officer/Paramedic Tarr had to do *some* movement on the ones that ( in his words ) were not ‘obviously deceased’ in order to check for signs of life. But Officer Tarr also said he carefully returned each FF back to his original position when he was done.
From Officer Tarr’s written testimony…
————————————————————————————————————-
The majority of the Firefighters were obviously deceased.
There were approximately 5 fire shelters that appeared to be intact which had Firefighters still under them. I was not able to get a response from any of the intact shelters.
I went back into the middle of the deployment site and raised each of the intact looking fire shelters from east to west and confirmed that each Firefighter who was inside was deceased. Each of them appeared similar with obvious rigor and no breathing or signs of life. I rolled the Firefighters back into their original position after checking them for signs of life.
———————————————————————————————————-
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> For the record, I believe these acts & others were part of the ‘big secret’ that many
>> swore to keep that spent the night at the scene. I am more convinced this is
>> possible & much more, especially in light of past ICs destruction of evidence
>> in a prior fatality fire… which happened to be the best friend of a major player
>> at Yarnell. I believe there is way, way more to this story than we can even fathom.
>>
>> Comments? Anybody?
I, too, believe there is still “way more to this story”… but I also honestly believe that any significant ‘movement’ or ‘re-positioning’ of the bodies themselves did not take place.
The reason they appeared to be in those 3 small ‘groups’… arranged like a ‘horseshoe’… was because not only was the deployment site way too small… they didn’t even have time to CLEAR it.
When it came time to lay down… there was still a pocket of unburned fuel INSIDE the way-too-small site itself, and the men ended up just having to lay down AROUND all the unburned fuel as best they could.
Wtktt,
Thank you very much for taking the time to address my questions & concerns. I appreciate it.
Thought For The Day
I think I know why all, or almost all current and former hotshots have such oversized egos. Who else waters up, saddles up (puts on line gear), tools up, lines up, shuts up, listens up, and then humps up the mountain to fight a natural disaster mano e mano with hand tools?
I mean…no one fights a tornado, flood, hurricane or tornado. Brave people try to mitigate those disasters and rescue people in their destructive paths, but no one tries to stop them.
Hotshots have to strongly believe in their abilities and those of their comrades, it’s a necessary part of the job. The danger comes when and if hotshots, especially their leaders, start believing in their own press releases and hype too much. So, don’t do that and hotshots will be okay…probably.
And I have a rhetorical question for you, who are indeed among my closest friends and confidants. Do you think all of the connections I have in my life to the Yarnell Hill Fire and its aftermath are just an odd collection of one off coincidences, or do you think a higher power is at work here?
Maybe we can change how disaster wildfires are investigated and by whom? Maybe that is our purpose here? Maybe we can help save current and future wildland firefighters lives by ensuring the Lessons Learned are the real lessons that should have been learned from disaster fires so their training can correct the real flaws in the way wildfires are fought instead of addressing lies and fairy tales?
Or…maybe not?
Earthquakes, not tornadoes AND tornadoes.
Deployment site
questions:
Were photos taken of the site when officer Tarr was present that can be compared to when the investigators arrived?
I don’t think so, Eric Tarr was in the rescue mode. But…WTKTT is going to have to address that whole conundrum, which is something I have been wondering about myself based on the fascinating discussion down below.
Reply to Diane lomas post on May 21, 2018 at 10:41 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Deployment site
>> questions:
>>
>> Were photos taken of the site when officer Tarr was
>> present that can be compared to when the
>> investigators arrived?
Yes.
After DPS officer/paramedic Eric Tarr was dropped off by helicopter Ranger 58 at that ‘cattle pond’ area near the Boulder Springs Ranch ( about 500 yards northeast of the deployment site )… Officer Tarr began his hike to the deployment site.
Ranger 58 had tried to land VERY NEAR the deployment site ( twice )… but pilot Clifford Brunsting had ‘aborted’ those two landing attempts because of all the hot ash that was being kicked up by the rotors. It is still unknown how the rotor wash from those ( TWO ) landing attempts altered the actual deployment site. Some of the fire shelters may have been ‘blown off’ some of the bodies at that time.
Once DPS officer Tarr was on his way to the site… Pilot Brunsting flew helicopter Ranger 58 back north to Peeples Valley to refuel.
Brunsting and ‘Ranger 58’ eventually flew back to the deployment site… but now there was a Yavapai County Sheriff’s Deputy ( described by Officer Charles Main as a ‘Captain’ ) onboard the helicopter to take ‘aerial photos’ of the deployment site since there was still some daylight.
Pilot Brunsting later testified that this YCSO Captaiin used TWO ‘cellphones’ to take both STiLL and VIDEO pictures of the deployment site exactly the way it was at that point in time.
From DPS Officer Eric Tarr’s written testimony…
————————————————————————————
While I was taping off the south side of the scene, Ranger 58 arrived back over the scene and advised me they had a Yavapai County Sheriff Deputy onboard and were taking aerial photographs of the scene.
————————————————————————————
From DPS Officer Charles Main’s written testimony…
————————————————————————————
The crew decided to leave Officer/Paramedic ( Eric ) Tarr on scene, to maintain security, until command could arrange more support personnel to secure the area for the night. Helicopter Ranger 58 flew back to the heli-base to drop me off and pick up the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Captain, to get a few quick pictures of the area before sunset. The scene was eventually
turned over to the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.
————————————————————————————
From ‘Ranger 58’ pilot Clifford Brunsting’s written testimony…
————————————————————————————
Officer ( Eric ) Tarr remained at the scene to provide security until someone else could take over control. I returned to the heli-base to refuel and then proceeded to the Yavapai Sheriff’s Command vehicle to brief them. After de briefing them I flew a Captain from Yavapai County to the scene to take aerial photographs of the scene while we still had some light before sunset. This flight lasted from 1930 to 1940 hours. The Captain used TWO cell phone
cameras to take STILL and VIDEO pictures of the scene. After completion of the photos I returned to the heli-base to await the return of Officer Tarr.
———————————————————————————-
In the same ‘M- Law Enforcement – no redactions.pdf’ evidence document containing the DPS ‘Ranger 58’ crew testimony… YCSO Detective J. McDormett himself also supplied his written testimony and verfies that he, himself, gave a copy of whatever photos and videos were taken from the helicopter ( on the evening of June 30 ) to SAIT investigator Brad Mayhew.
From YSCO detective J. McDormett’s written testimony…
———————————————————————————–
On 7/3/13 I spoke to Jerry Payne (602-771-1416) who is a deputy state forester with the Arizona State Forestry Division. Jerry advised that the state investigation would be conducted by members of the state forestry divisions from other states. He said the lead investigator would be a Brad Mayhew (831-247-2811) and that Brad would contact me. I received a call from Brad and he requested we meet at the Incident Command Center, which is located in Peeples Valley. Brad wanted me to escort him to the scene. ET Waldock and I met the team at 1615 hours. We went to the incident location, which was guarded by YCSO. The investigative team took photographs and started their examination of the scene. They were given a disk of the photos that YCSO had taken as well as a copy of the FARO that was conducted on 7/1/13. Waldock also showed them the FARO results on a laptop.
————————————————————————————
Key phrase…
“They ( Brad Mayhew and other SAIT team members ) were given a disk of the photos that YCSO had taken as well as a copy of the FARO that was conducted on 7/1/13.”
McDormett is obviously referring to BOTH the YCSO photos that were taken on the evening of June 30 ( from the helicopter ) AND the ‘Faro 3D’ images that were taken the next morning when the YCSO detectives arrived.
So the SAIT always had the ability to ‘compare’ these two sets of photos to see if anything had been ‘moved’ overnight. It is not known if they ever even bothered to do that.
NOTE: Even though all these photos/videos have always been KNOWN to be in the possession of the SAIT… they have never been provided in response to any ‘Open Records’ request for ALL the evidence in their possession… nor did they supply them to ADOSH, which they were required to do ( by law ).
ALSO NOTE: The ‘Brad Mayhwew’ that detective McDormett mentions was the ‘lead investigator’ for the SAIT… and the same ‘Brad Mayhew’ who just recently publicly confronted the famous author John Maclean at that Fire Safety conference in California and is now trying to sling some bullshit ( publicly ) that the SAIT “never said there was any lapse in communications with Granite Mountain” for those 33 minutes between 1604 and 1637.
Followup…
As far as photos and/or videos of what the deployment site actually looked like before there was any chance to ‘disturb’ it… it should be noted that when Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd was ‘descending’ to the deployment site ( along with fellow PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ), Hulburd was FILMING his descent… right up to the moment when he arrived at the deployment site.
But someone at U.S. Forestry BLACKED OUT any/all ‘glimpses’ of the deployment site itself from that Aaron Hulburd video. You can see Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown and the other PNF employee Jason Clawson already ‘standing’ at the deployment site ( since they had preceded Hulburd and Yowell down to the site )… but you can’t see anything on the GROUND where they are standing.
Certainly there is an ‘unredacted’ copy of that Aaron Hulburd ‘descent’ video somewhere… but the only thing that has been ‘released’ in response to valid FOIA requests ( so far ) is just that ‘redacted’ version.
It is also possible that any number of those firefighters who were the first to arrive on the scene may* have taken ‘other photographs’… but if they did… those photos have never seen the light of day.
Thank you WTKTT
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 17, 2018 at 7:09 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Maybe we can change how disaster wildfires are investigated
>> and by whom? Maybe that is our purpose here? Maybe we can
>> help save current and future wildland firefighters lives by
>> ensuring the Lessons Learned are the real lessons that should
>> have been learned from disaster fires so their training can
>> correct the real flaws in the way wildfires are fought
>> instead of addressing lies and fairy tales?
For what it is worth… the new ‘Supreme Being’ on this side of the grave ( Google ) thinks so.
As of today ( right now )… if you ‘Google’ the search phrase “Yarnell Hill fire investigation” ( or even just the two words “Yarnell investigation” )… you get about 93,300 results.
InvestigativeMEDIA shows up THREE TIMES the ‘Top 10 Search Results’ ( more than any other site ) and right there on the very FIRST page of results.
Since ‘Google’ returns search hits based on special algorithms designed to determine RELEVANCE to the search phrase… I guess the Supreme Being has decided that if you are interested in the Yarnell Hill ‘investigation’… you better check out InvestigativeMEDIA.
And one can assume that will be a ‘permanent’ decision by the new Supreme Being. Once it makes up its ‘mind’ about which sites are RELEVANT… it’s nearly impossible to change those ‘results’, even as time goes by.
—————————————————————————————————-
Google Search phrase: “Yarnell Hill fire investigation”
About 93,300 results.
Search Results ( Page One – Top 10 Results )…
1. Fire Rescue Magazine – Yarnell Hill Fire Report Released.
2. Phoenix New Times – Key Evidence in Arizona’s Yarnell Hill Fire Tragedy Never Provided to Investigators – by John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA
3. The Arizona Republic – Yarnell fire: New account of hotshot deaths.
4. Wildland Fire Lessons Learned – Yarnell Hill Fire Entrapment Fatalities (2013).
5. Wildfire Today – The Yarnell Hill Fire [PDF].
6. FOX10 NEWS – Arizona – Final Yarnell Hill Fire investigation report released.
7. InvestigativeMEDIA – Yarnell Hill Fire – Home page and Forums.
8. InvestigativeMEDIA – Forest Service ignored information from hotshot leaders about Granite Mountain’s history of bad decisions.
9. Arizona Forestry – Yarnell Hill Fire Report Now Available.
10. ABC15 – Arizona – Yarnell Hill Fire report: Results of investigation released Saturday.
——————————————————————————————————
**
** ED HOLLENSHEAD’S EMAIL TO TOM HARBOUR ON JULY 29, 2013
On May 15, 2018 at 5:52 pm, Gary Olson said…
>> Ed ( Hollenshead ) was retired when the Yarnell Hill Fire occurred,
>> he lived in another state and he no longer fought fire.
>>
>> I don’t think you understand what a big shot he was by the time
>> he retired. Think about a retired 4 Star General going to a minor
>> battle to actually fight. Not going to happen.
>>
>> And make no mistake, the YHF was a relatively minor battle
>> ( for a project fire ) until the thunder cell made everything go
>> to hell in a hand basket.
>>
>> And by “actually fight” I am including the overhead like Roy Hall.
>> Someone like Ed might go meet with someone from the UN to discuss
>> some global initiative, but to Yarnell…probably not.
>>
>> His head wouldn’t fit in the plans tent. I mean…some people think I
>> am full of myself…you should meet someone like Ed. OMGosh!
>>
>> That’s the reason I told the story about how I used to sit on his
>> chest and make him promise to be good before I let him get back up.
The only reason the ‘retired’ Ed Hollenshead showed up in Yarnell ( after the tragedy took place ) was so he could ( apparently ) “help Darrell Willis” ( whatever that means ).
And yes… even out of retirement… Hollenshead proved that like any good 4-star general… when you have something to say you you go ‘right to the top’.
Just 6 days after that ‘media event’ held at the Yarnell deployment site on July 23, 2013 ( where Ed Hollenshead stood right next to Darrell Willis ), Hollenshead went ‘right to the top’ and had an email conversation with Tom Harbour, the ( at the time ) overall Director of Fire and Aviation Management for the U.S. Forestry Service at the USFS Washington Office.
Hollenshead was still in Prescott ‘helping Darrell’ when he wrote the email… but he decided he had something he wanted to tell Tom Harbour directly BEFORE he left Prescott.
In that email, Hollenshead is basically telling Harbour that he thinks the way the Yarnell Hill fire was ‘organized’ ( or the lack thereof ) was a ‘contributor to the tragedy’.
In his email ( below ), Hollenshead is ‘talking turkey’ with Harbour and he uses a lot of ‘Incident Command System’ acronyms.
So in order to understand what Hollenshead is trying to say to Harbour the following ‘acronym soup’ reference table comes in handy…
‘ICS’ stands for ‘Incident Command System’
‘IMT’ stands for ‘Incident Management Team’
‘OPS’ stands for ‘Operations Section’
‘OSC’ stands for ‘Operations Sections Chief’
‘OBD’ stands for ‘Operations Branch Director’
‘DIVS’ stands for ‘Division Supervisor’
‘TFL’ stands for ‘Task Force Leader’
‘GMIHC’ stands for ‘Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew’
Here is the email that Ed Hollenshead sent from Prescott to Tom Harbour on the afternoon of July 29, 2013…
———————————————————————————————————–
To: Harbour, Tom – FS ( Director, Fire and Aviation Management HQ )
From: Ed and Sandy Hollenshead ( idsandyanded (at) gmail.com )
Sent: Jul 29, 2013, at 3:01 PM
Subject: Musings
Hello Tom, Ed Hollenshead here…
I’ll be leaving Prescott later today as Darrell and Judy are taking some well earned time away and my mission, for now, has ended. As the last of the laundry tumbles in the dryer I decided to share something that bas been on my mind for more than a few years; something that popped up in my mind as a contributor to the tragedy in Yarnell, AZ.
On June 30 there were sufficient qualified overhead on the Yarnell Hill fire to staff l-OSC2, 2-OBD ( wildland and structure ), 2-DIVS and 2-TFL. Instead, the organization consisted of 2-OSC, a structure protection specialist ( OSC2 qualified ), and a DIVS ( GMIHC Superintendent Marsh ). My concern is not what they decided to do there, but what they didn’t do... mold the organization to fit the complexity of the incident.
I’ve seen any number of times where standing team configurations ( many now sporting not l, not 2, but 3-OSC ) hamper the creativity ICS was intended to encourage. Standard organizations are being shoe-horned into every incident regardless of its nature or complexity, and command and control are suffering. The use of the OBD is rare outside R5 and 6, instead an OSC is left in camp to serve as “Planning OPS” and the “Line Ops” ( sometimes 2-OSC each operational period ) is ( are ) doing what OBDs should be doing … working and adjusting the plan, informing, coordinating, and communicating up, down, and sideways. I attribute this to standard configuration language that nearly always ignores the OBD position.
I think there is enough anecdotal evidence that IMT performance suffers because of the lack of creativity in forming and applying command structures that address the unique issues presented by the incident.
Perhaps it is ripe to be a point of emphasis during in-briefings and closeouts this year and for the 2014 IMT meetings.
Respectfully,
-ed- ( Hollenshead )
————————————————————————————————————
A few hours later ( and just after midnight on July 29, 2013 ), Tom Harbour responded to Ed Hollenshead’s email In that response email… Harbour ( of course ) calls Hollenshead his ‘Amigo’…
————————————————————————————————————
From: Harbour, Tom -FS ( Director, Fire and Aviation Management HQ )
Sent: 30 Jul 2013 00:31:51 +0000
To: Ed and Sandy Hollenshead ( idsandyanded (at) gmail.com )
Subject: Re: Musings
Well said Amigo — thanks for taking the time to share your observations — and thanks for caring for Darrell — its special kind of friends that “come a runnin” when trouble strikes — u r that kind of man —
Tom Harbour
Director, Fire and Aviation Management HQ,
US Forest Service, Washington DC Office
202 205 1483
————————————————————————————————————
But despite Tom Harbour appearing to AGREE with Ed Hollenshead ( “Well said Amigo” ) about the creeping ‘misuse’ and/or ‘abuse’ of ICS perhaps being a ‘causal factor’ in the Yarnell fatalities… there was ( of course ) absolutely no suggestion of any such thing in the official Yarnell SAIT Accident Investigation report.
Ironically enough… what Hollenshead was telling Harbour as early as July 29, 2013 more closely matches the conclusions in the published ADOSH report… which levied the greatest penalties possible under law against Arizona Forestry and their management of the Yarnell Fire.
Arizona Forestry ( in conjunction with US Forestry officials ) totally DENIED all of the conclusions in the ADOSH report.
If ADOSH had not ‘settled’ that court case… and it had actually gone to trial… the lawyers for ADOSH could have just presented this one email exchange between Ed Hollenshead and Tom Harbour and argued… “Your OWN ‘Fire God’ and your OWN Director of Fire and Aviation were basically agreeing on the same conclusion(s) as early as July 29, 2013.”.
Followup…
Ed Hollenshead started off his July 29, 2013 email to USFS Director Tom Harbour with a curious statement…
He said…
“I’ll be leaving Prescott later today as Darrell and Judy are taking some well earned time away and my mission, for now, has ended.”
Key phrase: “…my MISSION, for now, has ended.”
Hmmm…
What ‘MISSION’ was Ed Hollenshead referring to?
…and why would he feel the need to be ‘notifying’ a top-level USFS Director that this ‘MISSION’ was ending… but just “for now”?
Did Hollenshead come all that way to Prescott JUST to ‘comfort’ his old friend and Granite-Mountain-co-creator Darrell Willis… and he considered this his ‘MISSION’… or was there actually more to it than that?
Is is possible that part of Ed Hollenshead’s ‘MISSION’ was to keep a close eye on what was transpiring there in Arizona following the tragedy… and make SURE the U.S. Forestry Service didn’t get ‘dragged into it’… since ( regardless of ownership ), the USFS was, in fact, the agency that actually CERTIFIED the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew to be a Type 1 National Resource?
Did part of his ‘helping Darrell Willis’ involve ‘helping’ him craft that presentation Willis made from the deployment site on July 23… or at least just make sure Willis didn’t say anything he wasn’t supposed to in front of the media?
Hollenshead’s email to Harbour on July 29 ( just 29 days after the tragedy and long before ANY report was released ) proved that even though Hollenshead was not ‘officially’ involved with ANY of the investigations that had just begun… he seemed to already have full access to all the ‘resource records’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire and he knew exactly who was there and what their ‘red-card’ qualifications were.
That sounds like he was doing a lot more ‘work’ on this ‘MISSION’ of his than just being there to ‘comfort an old friend’.
The mission was damage control.
I could see immediately upon watching the press conference at the deployment site, with closed body language of the presenters (folded arms), it was an act of deflection & misdirection.
Ed probably endeavored for many tasks to happen: protect the USFS, come to his friend’s aid, defend the role he played in the creation of not only the GMIHC but the partnership between the city of Prescott, Yavapai fire district, and the forest service.
It’s rare for someone of Ed’s clout to have a conscience because the absence of such is almost necessary in order to climb the company ladder, but his email to Harbour is showing evidence of one. However, none of these characters show a true conscience or integrity, in my opinion, because the facts get buried never to see the light of day to ‘outsiders.’
The fact is: 3rd party oversight of the WIC (wildfire industrial complex) actually being implemented is what they fear most. Thus the extreme measures we see taken by them to ensure it doesn’t happen. I see many instances of psychopathy in all these top dogs in wildfire management. I expect it’s no different in any other large organization – the go along to get along/wink-wink folks rise to the top to ensure the continuation of the beast. It’s a machine that self-sustains with insiders many of whom exhibit extreme elements of arrogance, a thirst for power & prestige, and psychopathic behavior. I’ll take my low pay and keep my integrity, thank you very much.
This condition will never change unless the WIC is forced by the legislative branch to have impartial 3rd party oversight. In order for this to be effective in protection of both civilians and firefighters, it must operate with full honesty and integrity. The investigators following up on injury’s and fatalities must have no prior relationship with the wildland fire community whatsoever or you’ll just end up with a different (and probably more expensive) version of what we have now. Unless YOU PEOPLE demand it through legislation it will never happen. We obviously refuse to do it ourselves.
Will you please save us from our management? We are getting tired of going to funerals and witnessing forever broken hearted loved ones of firefighters. Management refuses to hear our voices. There are many more of you and you pay for our salaries and benefits. Please help.
…and Gary, you have done an amazing thing by airing your personal knowledge of how the system works. This gives the outside world a fighting chance at recognizing the flaws in the system from top to bottom and to CHANGE IT. On behalf of this firefighter, thank you for that.
Woodsman
Yes…I thank me for my serindipitous and sometimes random and often rambling musings and “ thoughts for the day” while I blog here and occasionally spew nonsense as well in this particular instance.
WOW…and since we are all feeling so connected right now during one of the highlights of our crowd sourcing investigation (otherwise what would be called a circle jerk during my “back-of-the-hotshot-bus” days), I want to thank you and WTKTT as well for your input and for WTKTT finding that email.
I don’t know what this means and I may never know, but I think it is a pretty fuckin’ important. Like I said, Ed was not only a retired four star general, he was the most important and influential general in the military of FIRE at one time, (although he was widely despised by the troops because unlike me, he never transitioned from being a Class A Asshole to being a really genuinely nice person who cares deeply about his fellow man (non gender specific) hence my sometimes sounding like a left of center fuckin’ Democrat).
And as you know, people like that never really retire, once a flag officer, always a flag officer. That fucker (and I say that with love) was up to no good in Prescott while he was on a “mission” to do more than hold Darrell Fuckin’ Wiilis’ Bible. Ed was definitely there “playin’ stinky finger” on behalf of THEM.
I love that fucker like a brother from another mother just like I love all current and former Hotshots (except for that asshole who runs Wildfire Today, he is an abomination) BUT…I wouldn’t trust him any further than I could throw him on top of a big dog house with my classic wrestling/judo throw, which these days wouldn’t be very fuckin’ far at all. So…just to sum up, that fucker was up to no good, of that we can be sure.
Wow…I just read WTKTT and The Woodsman’s comments again. I think WTKTT is exactly right in his suspicions about what Ed was doing there.
And then…”BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE”, The Woodsman hit it out of the park, to mix my metaphors again with his comments.
Except for one part. I don’t think it is rare of someone who has Ed’s clout to climb the ranks beyond a certain point with a conscience, or at least one that can’t be subverted at will (like every morning before they go to work), it is unheard of and IMPOSSIBLE.
Just look at what Shawna Legarza was willing to do to get-a-long in order to-go-along and climb all of the way to the top. I myself was bi-polar, some days I was a lap dog for management and some days I would maul them, so I never became more than a field ops guy who had a nice office instead if a cubicle.
We could actually use The Woodsman comments above to close out this thread, but I hope there is more information to come. Like I have written before, I was deeply embedded and connected to the WF community and culture at one time, but it’s been a long time.
There are lots and lots of WF out there who know lots and lots of secrets, including about the Yarnell zHill Fire. And it is only going to take one of them to realize they owe more to the “Brotherhood” by exposing their flaws so those flaws can be corrected, than they do by staying behind the Big Red Wall Of Silence. Especially since the Brothhood doesn’t really exist anyway and was invented by the USFS bourgeoisie MF to control, suppress and exploit the proletariats. Are you pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down Comrades?
And once they come forward, we can wrap this up and tie a bow on it because like both The Woodsman and I have written, it is going to take outside pressure from Congress before anything ever gets better.
And I lived through Congress stepping in and tearing down and then rebuilding USFS Enforcement and Investigations (although I was working for the BLM) and it happened and happened fast.
In fact, it was so dramatic…it actually scared BLM management straight cow awhile and kept them interfering and preventing the right thing from being done by…maybe at least 50% of the time and maybe up to 75% of the time in some State Offices (the BLM uses State Offices like the USFS uses Regional Offices and some State Offices like the New Mexico State Office also has Texas, Kansas and Oklahoma under their management).
The very thought or suggestion of Disaster fire Investigations being conducted by a professional, independent, legitimate, and honest investigation body…is making their blood run cold and is the biggest reason why they continue to monitor this thread. THEY know ideas they can’t control are dangerous to protecting and maintaining their status quo and iron grip on what facts ever see the light of day. THEY are dirty, dirty, dirty.
Whoops, this one is a doozy.
In fact, it was so dramatic…it actually scared BLM management straight FOR (not cow) awhile and kept them interfering and preventing the right thing from being done by…maybe at least 50% of the time and maybe up to 75% of the time in some State Offices (the BLM uses State Offices like the USFS uses Regional Offices and some State Offices like the New Mexico State Office also has Texas, Kansas and Oklahoma under their management).
But just to be clear, it wasn’t my mood that determined whether I was a lap dog or mauled management. Rather it was the issues that determined how I reacted to what they wanted me to do for the brand.
Some things I could suck it up and do what needed to be done from their perspective, other things made me walk away and if they pushed me…I bit hard.
The bright line for me was doing anything illegal I could go to prison for. Some unethical and immoral things I had to do in order to keep my job. I had three kids who needed health insurance and a stable home and I couldn’t die on every fuckin’ hill, I had to pick and chose. That is why I feel so bad for Jesse Steed, I know what a bad situation he was in and how much he stood to lose because Marsh was vindictive, petty and insecure in his position,
People like Ed, Darrell and Shawna don’t discriminate. They jump up into managements lap and give them kisses every time they here fingers being snapped.
And I don’t actually know whether Darrell Fuckin’ Willis is smart or not, but I know he is at least very, very, very, clever and manipulative. Nobody gets to be the Chief of a Fire Department who isn’t very astute and politically savvy. Ed was all of the above plus being really, really, really smart and manipulative.
Here is the paper that propelled Ed to the top of the heap and made him the Chiefs favorite. The second paper shows Ed, Tom Harbour and others in their blah, blah, blah, element. If you can read and understand Ed’s Fire Docturine Paper, my hat is off to you because it just makes my head hurt.
https://www.coloradofirecamp.com/usfs_doctrine/doctrine_review.htm
https://www.coloradofirecamp.com/usfs_doctrine/index.htm
https://www.energy.senate.gov/public/
https://naturalresources.house.gov/oversightandinvestigations/
These are the people who can change how Fire investigations are conducted and bu whom.
I may have pivoted to become a sweet old man instead of a Class A Asshole, but I am slowing down, I can’t believe I missed a grand chance to use the punchline from the “funniest joke” of all time.
I should have written;
“That Fokker was up to no good, of that we can be sure!”
Oh…and one more thing. Based on what RTS wrote, and I have absolutely no reason to doubt him, we feel differently about the Spawn Of Satan, who shall not be named, but I would never doubt the his veracity, Ed at a minimum is guilty of Obstruction Of Justice and Conspiracy. Both of these are very serious violations of federal law.
Hey…I have a great idea! After Bobby Three Sticks puts away the current crime family he is working on, he should be tasked with going after all of these Fokkers using RICO.
The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, commonly referred to as the RICO Act or simply RICO, is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization.
Although it sounds to me like both Ed and Darrell may miss the Rapture Train due to serious criminal violations of law.
I mean…What Would Jesus Do? I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t violate the law…right? Or maybe violating “Man’s Law” doesn’t count?
Woodsman,
Welcome back.
Ed Hollenshead was the Type 2 Fire Boss (now called IC) on the Dude Fire. Walt Shaw, a BIA AD employee, was the Type 1 Fire Boss that transitioned on June 26th between 1200-1300 hours. Yes, they actually commonly transitioned mid-day in those days, right in the middle of firing operations. The Dude Fire changed all that.
So, they were both managing the Dude Fire and the assigned Resources at the time and therefore deeply involved with the fatalities.
An interesting activity took place after the fatalities and prior to the Investigation Team arriving on scene. I allege that both of these Fire Bosses went to the Tonto NF Supervisors Office in Phoenix, AZ with the “Fire Package,” containing all the pertinent and relevant documents related to the Dude Fire.
According to individuals in the Dispatch office and others that were present, they witnessed them SHREDDING select documents from the Fire Package. The Lead Dispatcher mentioned to them that the Investigation Team would be needing those documents for their forthcoming investigation.
He was told by both Fire Bosses something to the effect of: “If you don’t like it, then you can just leave.”
Years later I was tasked with taking the lead on the Dude Fire Staff Ride development. It became readily apparent that there was a serious lack of Dude Fire documents. I had to contact the Regional Staff Ride Coordinator and inform her of this issue.
She put together a training workshop on Staff Ride Development and the product would be the actual Dude Fire Staff Ride. There were a few individuals that were on the Dude Fire Investigation Team that had one of the original reports.
This is a link for the Fire Management Today issue, Fall 2002, Volume 64 that specifically covers the initial Dude Fire Staff Ride and Staff Rides in general as well.
https://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/fmt62-4.pdf
The article titled ‘HUMAN FACTORS IN FIRE BEHAVIOR ANALYSIS: RECONSTRUCTING THE DUDE FIRE’ by Karl E. Weick is worth reading.
There is even a few paragraphs from Ed Hollenshead title ‘Safety First.’ At the time, he was the fire Operations Safety Officer for the USDA Forest Service, Fire and Aviation Management, Washington Office, National Interagency Fire Center, Boise, ID.
This is a link to the 2005 USFS Pulaski Conference on the Foundational Doctrine with plenty of quotes from Ed Hollenshead, Pulaski Conference Incident Commander and National Fire Operations Safety Officer.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjC–6Ig43bAhUV4GMKHeoEDrkQFghHMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fs.fed.us%2Ffire%2Fdoctrine%2Fgenesis_and_evolution%2Fsource_materials%2Ffinal_report_pulaski_conference.doc&usg=AOvVaw0L-hi1eL2NRua3xb0plOnL
RTS,
Just to be clear, you are alleging to have evidence that one of the Incident Commanders of the Dude fire, who was on duty at the time of the fatalities, who was currently employed by the USFS (in his normal position) as the Fire Operations Safety Officer, Fire and Aviation Management, Washington Office; who was best friends with Darryl Willis while he was Fire Management Officer on Prescott NF where both he & Willis (Prescott FD chief) dreamt of creating what would become GMIHC; WAS WITNESSED SHREDDING VITAL FIRE DOCUMENTS, the presence of which would be crucial to full understanding and learning what happened after the fact on the Dude fire?????
And Gary, didn’t you testify that Shawna Legarza, currently employed by the USFS as National Director of Fire and Aviation, ignored your pleas to include the truth of the actual and true contributing factors of the fatalities at Battlement Creek??????
In summary, I have 2 questions:
1. Does anyone see a correlation between what one is willing do to cover-up following deaths on wildfires & career advancement?
2. Given these material facts and testimony, is anybody truly surprised by what was presented as a final product from the SAIT on the Yarnell Hill fire?
Un-Freekin-Beleeeevable¡!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply to Woodsman post on May 18, 2018 at 12:12 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> In summary, I have 2 questions:
>>
>> 1. Does anyone see a correlation between what one
>> is willing to do to cover-up following deaths on
>> wildfires & career advancement?
Uhm… YES. ( I certainly do ).
>> 2. Given these material facts and testimony, is
>> anybody truly surprised by what was presented
>> as a final product from the SAIT on the Yarnell Hill fire?
Uhm… NO. ( and anyone who IS surprised isn’t paying attention ).
Yes…that is exactly what I said Shawna Legarza numerous times. She sold her soul as Ed did and so many others.
Yes…that is exactly what I said ABOUT Shawna Legarza numerous times. She sold her soul as Ed did and so many others.
Woodsman,
Some clarification is in order. I need to make clear what I posted because it appears you took some liberties replying to the post-Dude Fire debacle and may have strayed a ways down the slippery slope.
I am alleging to have evidence that BOTH June 26, 1990 Fire Bosses, Hollenshead and Shaw, (ICs nowadays) of the Dude Fire, one a full-time USFS employee and the other a Call-When-Needed (AD) employee with the BIA, were on duty at the time of the fatalities in their respective Fire Boss roles during the mid-day transition period and eventual fatalities.
They were also in their respective Fire Boss roles and BOTH ON DUTY WITNESSED SHREDDING VITAL FIRE DOCUMENTS contained in the “Fire Package” for the Dude Fire. This took place at the Tonto NF Dispatch in the Supervisors Office at the time, and prior to the arrival of the Dude Fire Fatality Investigation Team.
I allege that this act was verbally relayed to me by the USFS employee that witnessed the shredding act and who engaged in dialogue with BOTH individuals. In a word, he was basically told to f**k off by BOTH Fire Bosses when the Fire Bosses told him he could just leave if he didn’t like what they were doing.
Yes indeed, you are correct, the presence of the FULL Fire Package would be crucial to the Dude Fire Investigation Team looking into the fatalities, for the full understanding and learning of what happened before, during, and after the fact on the Dude Fire. Just as it would on every wildland fire fatality.
Now for the career path clarification portion. It was much LATER in his career that Hollenshead became the Fire Operations Safety Officer, Fire and Aviation Management in the Washington Office. Prior to this, he was the Region 5 (California) Fire and Aviation Director.
MANY wildland fire fatalities occurred throughout his career path, so you can infer as you wish whether or not they were “FACTUAL” Investigation Reports as they so often allege.
According to Gary Olson, Hollenshead became best friends with Darryl Willis while he was Fire Management Officer on Prescott NF where both he & Willis (Prescott FD chief) dreamt of creating what would become the GMHS. This is all new to me.
I allege that another USFS employee “rewarded” for his complicity in the Dude Fire fatalities cover-up was a former Hot Shot Supt. involved in the questionable, open to robust discussion, of the June 26th firing operation around the Bonita Creek Subdivision in Walk Moore Canyon, the scene of the ultimate Perryville Type 2 Crew Fatality Site. He was later “rewarded” with a career path resulting in a high-level Washington Office position in Aviation Operations.
In another AZ wildfire incident a few years later, I allege that in April 1996, the highly political Clark Peak Fire on the Coronado NF on Mt. Graham near Safford, AZ resulted in quite a bit of cover-up and outright falsification of records (the Clark Peak Fire daily fire progression map and operational data) with those complicit in the acts also “rewarded” with key high-level positions. This highly political fire was mainly due to the Papacy’s Telescope, referred to as the ‘Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope.’ https://mgio.arizona.edu/
A former Safford RD FMO told me that when there was ANY fire on Mt. Graham that he had to make two phone calls. One to the SW Regional Office and one to a Papal Cardinal. Another story for another day …
I am doubtful whether the Wildland Fire realm will ever have independent fatality fire investigative entities.
WFs can easily save themselves from our management by faithfully learning and following the WF Rules. We are all getting tired of going to funerals and witnessing forever broken hearted loved ones of WFs when the WF Rules are not adhered to IN VERY CASE where WFs are killed by fire.
The WF Rules AND Common Sense prevailed on June 30, 2013 on the YH Fire for the hikers and witnesses Joy A. Collura and Tex Gilligan, the BRHS, and all the other WFs that day. And every fire season they work and keep tens of thousands of WFs alive and safe.
The post above should read: … IN EVERY CASE where WFs are killed by fire.
RTS wrote
“Now for the career path clarification portion. It was much LATER in his career that Hollenshead became the Fire Operations Safety Officer, Fire and Aviation Management in the Washington Office. Prior to this, he was the Region 5 (California) Fire and Aviation Director.”
Now I am confused, here is Ed’s career path as I remember it…more or less based on where I was and what I was doing.
Prescott National Forest Fire Management Officer & Timber Star Officer
circa 1989 – 2001
National Fire Operations Safety Officer
circa 2002 – 2006
Assistant Director Of Fire and Aviation Management Region 5
circa 2006 – 2007
Director Of Fire and Aviation Management Region 5
circa 2007 – 2012
This document credits Ed starting what I call the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra that launched Darrell Fuckin’ Willis and Granite Mountain 7 on a collusion course with disaster.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53233282e4b094a873b75785/t/533d9e26e4b0cf4885e49cc8/1396547110876/3History.pdf
Oh…and that is retired in about 2012 from the R5 Director Of Fire job.
Gary, you are absolutely correct that Hollenshead was the Director Of Fire and Aviation Management Region 5
circa 2007 – 2012. Thanks for catching and correcting my blunder.
Your welcome! That’s just one of the things I am here for my dear, dear old friend!
Gary,
Thanks for sharing the document that “credits Ed starting what I call the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra that launched Darrell Fuckin’ Willis and Granite Mountain 7 on a collusion course with disaster.”
We know for a fact that in the July 2013 YHF Fatality Site News Conference PFD Wildland BC Willis repeatedly revealed the PFD stance that set the GMHS on a “collusion course with disaster” toward structures. Statements like saving structures / structure protection is a priority: “it’s INGRAINED in them … and they are NOT GOING to sit there and DO NOTHING when [there is] potential for people to be at risk SOMEWHERE …”
SOMEWHERE? REALLY?
This was in response to his rhetorical logical fallacy question: “why do [FF] run into burning buildings?”
In addition, it was clear that PFD WF [GMHS] safety was NOT a priority with this: “they [the GMHS] protected themselves as a last resort.”
The recognized hazardous attitude of Groupthink seemed to prevail with statements like “I would have followed them anywhere” and “they died with honor … they stuck together … saw and felt the same way…”
It was also clear that the PFD and GMHS discounted and disregarded basic WF Safety Rules (10&18 and LCES) with statements discounting having a LOOKOUT left behind (“they couldn’t [and] wouldn’t leave anyone behind] and that “there are times when you don’t always have the [LCES] standards in place … especially with them moving..” WTF?
He further discounted the basic WF Rules with this bizarre statement:: “no [WF] is satisfied sitting there [in a SZ]
and watching the fire progress … without taking some action.”
Real WFs are perfectly satisfied with that option. You let the big dog eat …
WTF!?
He also discounted basic ‘you-have-really-f**ked up,’ last resort fire shelter training that specifically instructs WFs to AVOID deploying your fire shelter in CHIMNEYS, BOX CANYONS, CHUTES, and BOWLS with this ridiculous statement: “they picked the BEST LOCATION IN THIS BOWL” to deploy their fire shelters.
Are you f**king kidding me … in a BOWL?
RTS,
Yes, Willis is an obvious charlatan & fraud. I still cringe thinking about that press conference. I’ve tried to give him the benefit but it was just too far off the charts bizarre.
At the risk of sliding off topic, let me ask you something. Do you believe that GM deployed together like the reports show…with the bodies positioned as they have been presented? What is the cross-shaped memorial marker in the rocks a distance away from the deployment site and out of the chute indicate? Do you have any evidence or opinion as to whether the bodies of GM were repositioned after the fact & before investigators were able to accurately document the fatality scene? There certainly was ample opportunity for it to happen.
For the record, I believe these acts & others were part of the ‘big secret’ that many swore to keep that spent the night at the scene. I am more convinced this is possible & much more, especially in light of past ICs destruction of evidence in a prior fatality fire..which happened to be the best friend of a major player at Yarnell. I believe there is way, way more to this story than we can even fathom.
Comments? Anybody?
Woodsman,
I do NOT believe that the GMHS deployed together like the reports show, with the bodies positioned as they have been presented.
I don’t know what the cross-shaped memorial marker in the rocks a distance away from the deployment site and out of the chute indicates. Joy A. Collura may know the answer to that question since she’s been all over those mountains.
There is very credible evidence that two GMHS received cranial injuries in the autopsy reports – something WTKTT has pressed for quite awhile.
There is also SUGGESTIVE evidence that these same two GMHS were AWAY from the GMHS, possibly with Marsh..
I also believe the bodies of GM were repositioned after the fact and before any of the investigators were able to accurately document the YH Fire Fatality Site.
Yes indeed, there certainly was ample opportunity for it to happen.
I too believe these acts and others were part of the ‘big secret’ that as many as 40 WFs swore to keep secret that night at the YH Fire Fatality Site.
From WTKTT May 2, 2018 reply to Diane Lomas http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474130
During the night… someone from the YCSO Sheriff’s department allowed any number of people to go ‘under the scene security tape’ and access that (supposedly) ‘secured’ the accident site before the YCSO detectives could arrive and begin their work.
These intruders walked all over it… disturbing the scene and placing 19 TARPS over ALL of the bodies… and doing who knows what else.
None of the (at least) 4 GPS units that GMHS “alleged: lookout McDonough himself said the GM Hotshots normally carried with them, including the one that was KNOWN to have been on Robert Caldwell’s pack strap that day, have ever been accounted for.
I too am very convinced this was possible and much more, especially in light of past ICs destruction of evidence in a prior fatality fire..which happened to be the best friend of a major player at Yarnell.
Yes sir, I too believe there is way, way more to this story than we can even fathom. As i have stated from the outset, the YH Fire us the biggest cover-up, lie and whitewash in wildland fire history.
Woodsman,
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vii-2/
May 18, 2014 – CORY MOSER SAYS 25 TO 30 FIREFIGHTERS ‘SPENT THE NIGHT’ ** AT THE BOULDER SPRINGS RANCH… AND THEY FORMED A ‘PACT’ ** TO NEVER TALK ABOUT WHAT WENT ON THAT NIGHT. Cory Moser (PFD FF) who was Willis TFLD and ‘right-hand-man’ that day.
A16-Corey Moser Photos Video: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mazd2wv8u4ku9ds/pBnz6F7c-C
I must admit…of all of the shocking things I have both written and read on this thread, I think the MOST shocking thing is the picture that RTS painted of those two IC’s standing there in the fire operations center and shredding documents from the Dude Fire.
I mean…WTF…Over? Couldn’t they have at least gone to a Kinko’s and used their shredder? Or gone to a 24 hour Wal-Mart and bought a cheap one?
The reason that act is so shocking…is because it was so blatant! It just shows how ingrained in the WF Culture cover ups are…its deep in their DNA!
There are actually federal statutes that clearly identify all of those acts as CRIMES!
And not just crimes…very serious federal FELONY crimes!!! OMGosh!
Hells Bells…every mailroom has a big ass industrial shredder in them.
Why didn’t they at least take the Dude file and walk down the damn hallway?
It was probably after hours and the mailroom would have been empty.
Talk about cast iron BALLS!
And to do it in front of witnesses?
I think I remember that Willis stood there and actually went through the extreme mental gymnastics trying to justify and explain why they actually selected a slight rise (that you could actually see in the video) explaining they picked that high point because it was the best place to be!
Picking a high point on purpose, as opposed to getting as low into the dirt as you can possibly be! OMGOSH!
One thing I do believe about the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster Report is that Gibson survived because he was a few inches lower in mineral soil while the crewman who was slightly above him…died.
That is what is not only STUPID, but very DANGEROUS about a blathering IDIOT like Wiilis standing there bloviating about something he is clueless about and that is being a wildland firefighter.
Gary,
You are correct. Gibson layed down in a rut in the road
Correction,
“A few inches lower in mineral soil than Stephen H. Furey, 23, from Salmon, Idaho whose throat was so badly burned they did a tracheotomy with a pocket knife while he convulsed and then died from severe third degree burns all over his body while his burned flesh hung in strips from his charred body.” That guy.
Gary,
Not quite sure what you’re asking/saying here.
First you ask about Gibson who survived with burns.
Next, you post: “A few inches lower in mineral soil than Stephen H. Furey, …” who died.
Are you talking about Gibson being a few inches lower in mineral soil than Stephen H. Furey?
Amen brother, can I get a hallelujah?
On May 20, 2018 at 10:01 am,
Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>> According to Gary Olson, Hollenshead became
>> best friends with Darryl Willis while he was
>> Fire Management Officer on Prescott NF where
>> both he & Willis (Prescott FD chief) dreamt of
>> creating what would become the GMHS.
>> This is all new to me.
On May 20, 2018 at 2:23 pm,
Gary Olson said…
>> This document credits Ed starting what I
>> call the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra
>> that launched Darrell Fuckin’ Willis and
>> Granite Mountain 7 on a collusion course
>> with disaster.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53233282e4b094a873b75785/t/533d9e26e4b0cf4885e49cc8/1396547110876/3History.pdf
In addition to that official “History of the Prescott Area Wildland / Urban Interface Commission” ( PAWUIC ) document at the link above… which states…
NOTE…
PNF stands for “Prescott National Forest”.
PFD stands for “Prescott Fire Department”.
————————————————————-
In 1989, Ed Hollenshead ( PNF ) ORIGINATED the idea that eventually resulted in the formation of PAWUIC. This concept began to develop in discussions that Ed had with Ron Prince ( PFD ), Darrell Willis ( PFD ), and Coy Jemmett ( PNF ).
————————————————————-
NOTE: That official ‘History of the PAWUIC’ says that the idea ORIGINATED with Ed Hollenshead.
…it is also a matter of ‘Congressional Record’ ( Yes… the United States Congressional Record ) that Ed Hollenshead and Darrell Willis worked together to create the organization that would lead to the formation of the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’…
** CONGRESSIONAL RECORD
https://www.congress.gov/crec/2015/09/08/CREC-2015-09-08-pt1-PgE1218-3.pdf
—————————————————–
THE HON. PAUL A. GOSAR OF ARIZONA
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Tuesday, September 8, 2015
Mr. GOSAR: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to recognize the silver anniversary and 25 years of dedicated service of the Prescott Area Wildland Urban Interface Commission (PAWUIC).
In 1989, Ed Hollenshead and Coy Jemmett of the Prescott National Forest, along with Prescott Fire Department’s Ron Prince and Darrell Willis originally conceived the idea of an organization where community leaders were involved in combating issues in the Wildland Urban Interface (WUI). ( Etc… )
————————————————————-
The first ‘meeting’ that led to the creation of Ed Hollenshead’s ( and Darrell Willis’ ) ‘PAWUIC’ idea was held in August of 1989.
The Dude Fire entrapment and fatalities took place 10 months later, on June 26, 1990
The PAWUIC was ‘officially’ formed on September 7, 1990,
That means just 2 months and a few days after Ed Hollenshead had been standing in that Supervisors Office at the Tonto National Forest and committing multiple FELONIES… He and Darrell Willis were ‘officially’ launching the organization that would eventually generate the crew that would become responsible for “The Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting”.
Fuckin’ A…you nailed that one Kemosabe!
Ed has always been the Wizard behind that big green USFS curtain.
Historical Footnote,
I had lunch with Ed at the El Matador restaurant near the Phoenix Convention Center and a short walk from my office on the eighth floor of the Phelps Dodge Tower just after Ed had met with the Chief Of The United States Forest Service to discuss Ed’s future. Ed and I would never eat anywhere other than a Mexican food restaurant no matter which state we got together in and we always ask for some real salsa from back in the kitchen.
Anyway…the Chief had just told Ed that he would wire him into the Assistant Director Of Fire & Aviation Management job in San Francisco (Ed was the National Fire Safety Officer in Boise at the time) and then if he took that job, the Chief would wire him into the Directors job once they forced the old dinosaur who was in that job at the time to retire.
The Chief told Ed the R5 program was wallowing in bloated incompetence loaded up with worthless “retired in place” good old boys who were still stuck in the last century using hopelessly outdated tactics, strategies and ideas from the middle of the previous century. And the Chief wanted that CHANGED ASAP!
So…Ed’s mission was to go in to California and use a chain saw to cut out all of the dead and diseased wood from the biggest fuckin’ tree in the USFS inventory. This assignment would of course piss everybody off due to decades of long standing interagency relationships and very close friendships among all of the FIRE heads of state.
Ed became Public Enemy Number 1 and everybody not only hated him, but they were gunnin’ for him and did everything they could to make him fail, but he didn’t…Ed succeeded beyond the Chiefs expectations.
Of course this made Ed radioactive and impossible for him to rebuild the FIRE program, but that was okay, because then came Step II. Bring in Ed’s replacement, the Good Cop after about five years when Ed was the last motherfucker standing to replace him as the Bad Cop.
Say what you will about Ed, he rode hard for the brand and he always did the job thay asked him to do, no matter how dirty it was. How would you like to walk in to a new job when everyone in the state already hated you because they knew you were to be the Chief’s rat snitch motherfuker and came there to fuck them over?
Ed was…and is, just about the toughest man I have ever known, like him or love him….and almost everyone hated him, except me. I understood him. I was just like him, more or less…mostly less.
: )
Oh…and back in the good ole days Ed used to keep the dried scrotum of some big animal he had killed as the fitted cover on the stick shift ball in his pick up truck so his wife wouldn’t drive it. Fuckin’ A! That’s Ed!
What did Ed get out of it? A really high 3 in retirement based on a GS 15 and the San Francisco Cost of Living Adjustment that followed him even after he moved to a low cost of living area that didn’t hate guns, which made his pension check much, much, much higher than it would have been had he been less of a man.
That’s the way it works beyond a certain level. Nobody really applies for the job, they already have it. I know, I lived AND died by that same sword.
And by living AND dying by the same sword, I meant that I didn’t get a lot more jobs that I really wanted than I got because some other Fokker was wired into them.
🙁
I think that big dried scrotum was from an Elk Ed had killed up on the Santa Fe. I didn’t want to touch the hairy nasty thing either. Like I wrote, I was like Ed more or less…mostly less.
🙂
Actually I want to walk back a misstatement. I think Ed was rebuilting the R5 FIRE program as he tore it down, he just was too radioactive to manage it after he was done, but that was timed to his retirement anyway.
Although he could have stayed if he wanted to, I think peoples anger and hate made that ornery Fokker stronger…much stronger.
WTKTT,
You posted: “The Dude Fire entrapment and fatalities took place 10 months later, on June 26, 1990.”
The June 26, 1990 Dude Fire was preceded by the PNF Doce Fire weeks earlier, also worked by the Perryville Type 2 Crew, where 6 later died a few weeks later.
Ironically, in June 2013, the GMHS worked on the PNF Doce Fire a week or so prior to the YH Fire.
According to the alleged GMHS “lookout” McDonough, in one of his SAIT/ADOSH interviews, the GMHS had weeks before the Doce and YH Fires, trained on the June 1990 Dude Fire, so they were aware of or should have been aware of the critical significance of the major fire weather and fuels conditions and timing.
I believe the GMHS alleged “lookout” McDonough actually blamed the 1990 Dude Fire deaths on lightning or winds.
RTS,
I wasn’t taking liberties with what you said, I was trying to make sure I fully understood what you were saying. Thank you for the added clarification.
“According to Gary Olson, Hollenshead became best friends with Darryl Willis while he was Fire Management Officer on Prescott NF where both he & Willis (Prescott FD chief) dreamt of creating what would become the GMHS. This is all new to me.”
I actually read a published article that talked about Ed & Darrell being best friends when Ed left PNF upon receiving a promotion so to those in the know (system) in Arizona, it should have been common knowledge. I’m actually surprised, due to your massive experience, that it’s new information to you.
I really appreciate your clarification on your post, particularly the information on Incident Commanders directly involved with a major fatality fire (Dude) facilitating actual destruction of key evidence which would most obviously thwart a satisfactory investigation after the fact. It would take me a couple of days to identify all the violations of federal law associated with those acts.
It’s clear to me many in the fire service believe they are outside the bounds of law. Unfortunately, the track record of serial misconduct with little to no negative consequences has given them no reason to believe the law applies to them. I have no words…
Thanks
PS; elaborate on your slippery slope comment, time to start sliding…
Woodsman,
The slippery slope of “… one of the Incident Commanders of the Dude fire,
who was on duty at the time of the fatalities, who was currently employed by the USFS (in his normal position) as the Fire Operations Safety Officer, Fire and Aviation Management, Washington Office …”
His normal position at the time of the Dude Fire was as the PNF Fire Staff, so you kinda slipped upslope giving him his USFS WO promotion earlier than what it really was
Copy. At least it was a minor slip. Thought it may have been something serious. Thanks!
Try again
Not able to post.. Via cell
I wrote a lot and it vanished because on cell…probably for the best…less skimming for you to do…
I welcome everyone to the conference on agricultural and forest meteorology…Boise Idaho AMS. I see many here are friends and colleagues as well meeting new folks especially for me I enjoyed new students presenting for first time in a major venue and nice to meet new to field 27y.o. beautiful soul Missoula Lab Loren Atwood from Utah and chemical engineering background and his pureness (his pureness reminds me of Dr Ted Putnam) and Loren’s intellect was intriguing as I watched him sponge it all in and to me to see the young engage as I saw him was beautiful to witness. I see GOOD for the current/future of the DNA of the fire industry if this man is a current part to the fire industry. I enjoyed the interaction of the model simulation of Santa Barbara to real time woman Leila C. speaking up on the real time winds vs simulation. I enjoyed engaging and asking questions during poster presentations.
The graphs throw me off when using scientific math calculations. F2f= ahrhxhrh…right…I know…
Friday 18th from 845 to 4pm is the Soda Fire field trip…a very professional respectful 12 minute presentation with a few minutes q and a….if you like models and not Victoria Secret kind but simulation kind or data with dot dot dot and dashes…or learn about emissions of nitrous oxide/methane/gases (yes Gary they do talk on flatuence too) on agricultural forest wetland or atmospheric biogeochemical cycles; patterns and processes and techniques, or the vegetative response to changing soil and atmospheric conditions, ec measurements and modeling of atmospheric biosphere exchange improvement, a lot of simulations and model graphs…a lot….vs realism. Forecasting Operational short term and long term is also discussed…we went over fire dangers and fire behavior improvements and climatology…canopy micrometeorology…field studies of fire atmosphere interactions…remote sensing applications.. It was nice talking to the tall man about his historical background on fire and weather used human caused arson techniques using weather to manipulate fire to become megafires vs it being natural they are now professional fire folks humanly causing the fires to fight fire with fire using weather as calculated tool to then become this fire monster or big orange gorilla….but learned a lot about how weather is a calculated tool to make fires become hard to suppress…it was also interesting to learn how limited the folks here are on GOES and APPS and sources on where they go to for their data.. They spoke a lot about Coupled fire atmosphere models…management and mitigation…talked on pyrocb…fire simulator evaluations…talked rhea fire…Haines…I liked Ruthford and Nauslar and Bowers but they all brought something to the table so far…but yeah I am not accepting just because Gary explained Ed and his retirement methods that Ed is not possibly my mystery man and I always wondered who Ed was in my public records and foias…so thank you Gary and Wtktt. I suggest the world to PULL OUT foias and public records on a commercial request on Ex’s name and email and number and ask for all his data including TEXTS…yep…so you start to learn a lot on what is what and who is who…”just saying” and what is interesting is the very people Gary you said were your friend in the industry were probably just you on THEIR Christmas roster friend list because I am always going to be MORE a friend to your life than anyone you lay on their Holiday card giving list…k
Its about what they say behind your back not to your face…
If you wake up today and have a thought I DONT LIKE THAT PERSON…than get the time to KNOW them…RTS for years went back and forth on IM picking on me from my perspective during it is how I took it but to his academic way he was being real…anyone who knows me knows its a challenge for me or them to get to know me because in the day my world was work work work but when I saw the female version of JOB from the bible happening to me I learned the value of freezing up and letting myself go…and become a factor of a person I did not even want to know yet with my bumblebees and vulnerability to open up on IM I am becoming slowly back into the rythym and learning a balance and thank you IM folks for the rawness and realness here shown and how Gary calls me out and picks on me…its all gravy…and when I see him and Sonny talk about the men I always wonder why they say that but then I think I have stated stuff did I just say that…really WWTKTT if you never showed up to IM this page would of faded long ago because you are the core reason many still come here ESPECIALLY fire authors and journalists and fire folks truly wanting to learn the fire industry. It cost $0.00 to be a decent real human being and even though I think and Gary has said it too that you are AI…you are a good HUMAN BEING..thank you for being alive.
The neatest part about IM back channel is having people who help with Spritual warfare that happens…thank you for our focus on the Bobs and Eds…because acknowledging them will help those really wanting to LEARN will get this site is not here to CALL OUT folks to be mean but show TRUTHS…
Sorry for cell typos and sorry to Warren and Mika and Neil for my multi tasking while you spoke plume equations and fire behavior I rambled here…in natural form I did it to keep my heavy lids open and its me not them…I just am tired. I wonder if I am able to post one part of this conference public…I for sure thought Elizabeth Nowicki would of been here since it had to do with weather and fire.
**
** ED HOLLENSHEAD WAS STANDING NEXT TO DARRELL WILLIS AT
** THAT FIRST PRESS CONFERENCE FROM THE YARNELL DEPLOYMENT SITE.
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 14, 2018 at 12:00 pm
Gary Olson wrote…
———————————————————————————————————-
And here is some backstory to enter into your memory hard drive that may assist you in making further computations…or at least help you understand the inbred incestuous WF Culture even better.
Ed Hollingshead was the on the Flagstaff Hotshots with Tony Czak. Ed went and worked for the Peace Corps in Guatemala for two years because he had a BS in Forestry from NAU. When he came back, he was able to get hired as the Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew Boss. while I was a squad boss on Happy Jack. We didn’t know each other at that time.
By the time I became the Happy Jack Hotshot Crew Boss, Ed had moved on to the Santa Fe as a professional forester, which is where he was when I later moved on to the Santa Fe to start the Santa Fe Hotshots. Ed was still young and a real fuckin’ hell raiser.
Ed and I became close friends because of our common background and love of raisin’ hell. Plus…we were both Class A Assholes and macho men. Ed liked to party with the Santa Fe Hotshots and come to our cabra roasts, He was accepted by the crew because he was my buddy. We played video games all night while I was babysitting, went deer hunting and worked out together.
Ed then transferred to the Prescott National Forest ( no shit, here is where it gets good ) as the Forest Fire Management Officer/Timber Staff because both programs were relatively small on the Prescott.
Ed also began moving up the ranks on Fire teams and became Type II Incident Commander. Ed also became best friends with… wait for it… Darrell Fucking Willis because they both loved to elk hunt on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon and they were both hard core…no, very, very, very hard core… wait for it… Christian Fundamentalists. I met Darrell through Ed because Prescott was still my home town and Ed and I were still buddies as saw each other often because my mother still lived in Prescott.
Ed was like me and a fanatical ex hotshot and he is THE reason the GMIHC were ever created. He and Darrell Willis worked together to make it all happen. Darrell as the Prescott Fire Department Chief and Ed as the Prescott National Forest “Fire Chief.” Together they formed and then controlled the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra. Ed’s son was one of the original Granite Mountain 7 Crewmembers.
I think Duane Steinbrink was just a pimple on Ed’s and Darell’s asses when it came to creating the GMIHC. That was the Ed and Darrell show all the way.
Ed was always the Wizard behind the Big Green USFS Curtain on the GMIHC production First as a Granite Mountain 7, and then later converting them to become the first city fire department sponsored hotshot crew. That was always the end game.
…
…
Ed was the IC of the Dude Fire and my sources tell me he was the primary architect of the Dude Fire Disaster Cover Up.
…
…
Oh… and one more thing. I think Eric Marsh was never anything more than a pawn in Ed’s and Darells game of 3D Chess.
Ed and Darrell are both really, really, really fuckin’ smart and manipulative.
———————————————————————————————————–
Sure enough… the infamous Ed Hollenshead was standing right next to Darrell Willis during that first ‘media event’ out at the Yarnell deployment site, on July 23, 2013.
The following article about that Yarnell media event says the Ed Hollenshead had been (quote) “helping Willis” ( whatever that means ) since the day of the tragedy.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Media views site where Hotshots perished (with video)
Published: July 24, 2013
https://www.dcourier.com/news/2013/jul/24/media-views-site-where-hotshots-perished-with-vid/
From the article…
———————————————————————————————————–
Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis stood next to the spot Tuesday where 19 of his Granite Mountain Hotshots died, and described how he thought it happened.
“This is a pretty emotional place to be for me right now,” Willis said Tuesday.
By his side was Ed Hollenshead, former Prescott National Forest fire staff officer who retired as the Forest Service’s national fire operations safety officer. Hollenshead has been here helping Willis since July 1.
“I had complete faith in their leadership,” Willis said of the hotshots. “It’s a risky business, but they don’t take undue risk. They’re safety conscious. You can call it an accident. I just say God had a different plan for that crew at this time.”
———————————————————————————————————–
Gary Olson also said…
———————————————————————————————————–
Now that I think about it, Darrell must have been the one who brought Christ into Ed’s life and helped him get reborn?
I do know Ed goes to bed every night and wakes up every morning expecting to be Raptured that very day.
I eat ice cream etc. Ed drinks bottles of hard alcohol.
But that’s no big deal, most old Fire Dogs go to bed with a bottle. Most old and former LE officers and agents do as well.
Ed gave me the combo to his gun safe because he said he wouldn’t need it anymore and because I wasn’t with the program…I was going to need the extra firepower! : )
———————————————————————————————————–
Well… then maybe Hollenshead was the one who convinced Willis to not offer any real explanation about why 19 men burned to death at that site where the first media press conference was being held.
Maybe Hollenshead was the one who told Willis to offer up that now-infamous statement that it was all just “God’s plan”… because “We’re all probably going to be Raptured before they finish the investigation, anyway.”
Darrell Willis should have NEVER been allowed to be the one hosting that first press conference following the tragedy. He did nothing but piss a lot of people off with those various ‘statements’ he was allowed to make that day about “God’s plan” and “Dying with honor is the most important thing”, yada… yada…
He ( Willis ) came across as a ‘nut job’ when what the world had been waiting for ( for a month ) was some real INFORMATION about how/why those 19 men ( who were SUPPOSED to be wildland fire experts ) had all ended up burning to death.
Followup…
On May 14, 2018 at 9:02 pm, Gary Olson also said…
>> I want to walk back what I said about Steinbrink,. Its just that I am still
>> pissed off about the BULLSHIT movie. Let’s just say that both Marsh
>> and Steinbrink were merely pawns in Ed’s and Darrell Fuckin’ Willis’
>> 3D Chess Game.
>>
>> Why go to that much trouble? It had never been done before so it was
>> a challenge to men who liked challenges.
>>
>> And…hotshot crews bring recognition and glory to their home bases
>> and sending units, As I have stated before, hotshot crews are the pride
>> and joy of the WF community and culture.
I didn’t know Ed was there with Willis. It doesn’t surprise me, but I didn’t know. They did get one thing wrong though, Ed was the National Safety Officer in between being the Prescott NF Fire Staff job and the Assistant Director Of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 5 job. And Ed retired as the Director Of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 5.
But…during those years, there is no doubt he was the Chief’s favorite person in fire management and he is the one who had the status, influence and power to create the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew along with Chief Willis as his partner with the local status, influence and power.
There is also no doubt in my mind that those two Born Again Hard Core Christian Fundalmentalists decided that God coming up with a different plan for the crew was the next best thing to being to them Raptured.
Needless to say…due to my position here on this thread, I have lost all of the friends I had in FIRE management from back in the day, which hasn’t been important to me. There is only ONE thing that is important to me in this part of my life. And that has been and will continue to be, the addition of my voice (or blogging) to the mix demanding a change in how Disaster fires are investigated and by whom.
Oh…and one more thing. Ed would have known better than anyone else just how “reckless” Tony Czak was and Ed would also have known as well as anyone just how “reckless” Eric Marsh was. And as the former NATIONAL SAFETY OFFICERfor the USFS, And Ed would have had the status, power and influence to change everything.
I wouldn’t want to have his Nightime Demons, I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy.
Now that I think about it, I might be the only one who is demanding change in how Disaster fires are investigated and by whom. And since I have zero status, power and influence, we’ll…
Is it possible John Dougherty your family member who does photos and pixels can see if ED is the MYSTERY MAN on the Weavers with Eric Marsh that I took a photo of…could ED be my mystery man we watched on the Weavers June 30 but he just never was shared to BE THERE…
No…Ed was retired when the Yarnell Hill Fire occurred, he lived in another state and he no longer fought fire.
I don’t think you understand what a big shot he was by the time he retired. Think about a retired 4 Star General going to a minor battle to actually fight. Not going to happen.
And make no mistake, the YHF was a relatively minor battle (for a project fire) until the thunder cell made everything go to hell in a hand basket.
And by “actually fight” I am including the overhead like Roy Hall. Someone like Ed might go meet with someone from the UN to discuss some global initiative, but to Yarnell…probably not.
His head wouldn’t fit in the plans tent. I mean…some people think I am full of myself…you should meet someone like Ed. OMGosh!
That’s the reason I told the story about how I used to sit on his chest and make him promise to be good before I let him get back up. Like I have said, there is usually a point to all of my stories. : )
And I didn’t make up the “go meet with someone from the UN to discuss a global initiative.”
That was an example that Ed actually used as being something he would be willing to do in retirement while we were goofing off in the Olympic Pennisula.
I am thinking about applying to deliver sack lunches to fire camp.
I met people who worked with you who still stand by you…remember also the great stuff Stella said about you Gary…I think the disease DNA of the industry are the ones disclaiming you for your participation here…
Stella from the US Attorneys Office?
And thanks. : )
And I was specifically referring to old WF, there wasn’t very many left to start with. I mean…there is a difference between those I knew and those that were friends anyway.
I only knew two Stella’s in Phoenix, Stella from the US Attorneys Office and Stella from the topless bar the Night Train at Cental Ave, and Martin Luther King St. where I usually ate lunch. They had a great luncheon special with two for one well drinks.
On May 14, 2018 at 12:00 pm, Gary Olson wrote…
>> Ed ( Hollenshead ) was like me and a fanatical ex hotshot
>> and he is THE reason the GMIHC were ever created. He and
>> Darrell Willis worked together to make it all happen. Darrell
>> as the Prescott Fire Department Chief and Ed as the Prescott
>> National Forest “Fire Chief.” Together they formed and then
>> controlled the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra.
>>
>> Ed’s son was one of the original Granite Mountain 7 Crewmembers.
Yep… and so were the ‘sons’ of both Darrell Willis AND Duane Steinbrink.
Tim McElwee and Brad Malm would also eventually ‘place’ their own sons ( Travis and Nate ) onto the original ‘Crew 7’ as well.
Lotta ‘nepotism’ going on there.
—————————————————————————————–
nep·o·tism
ˈnepəˌtizəm/
noun: nepotism
The practice among those with power or influence of favoring
relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.
——————————————————————————————
Prescott Fire Department employee Eric ‘Conrad’ Jackson wrote a book about the history of the Prescott Fire Department, and it includes a chapter about the history of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ( including early photographs ).
The title of the book is…
“Images of America – Prescott Fire Department”.
Published in 2014 by Arcadia Publishing.
ISBN number: 978-1-4671-3178-0
It includes photographs containing all the ‘sons’. serving on the crew…
Ed Hollenshead’s son = Cody Hollenshead.
Duane Steinbrink’s son = Troy Steinbrink
Darrell Willis’ son = Jared Willis.
Tim McElwee’s son = Travis McElwee
Brad Malm’s son = Nate Malm
** There are two photographs on page 102 of the book…
TOP PHOTO CAPTION
Ralph Lucas stands on top of a Type Six patrol for a better view of the Aguila Fire with Troy Steinbrink at the pump panel.
BOTTOM PHOTO CAPTION
Pictured are Battalion Chiefs Tim McElwee and Brad Malm while working on a control burn. Both of these firefighters were instrumental in supporting and developing the department’s wildland program. Their sons, Travis and Nate, would eventually carry on the wildland firefighting tradition, becoming members of Crew 7 before it transitioned to become the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
** There are two photographs on the very NEXT page ( 103 ) of the book…
TOP PHOTO CAPTION…
The Granite Mountain Hotshots’ humble beginning was with the inception of a grant-funded fuels reduction crew. The fuels crew, Crew 7, served a proactive function in the city, reducing fuel loads from around homes. In its first year it created defensible space around 392 homes. Pictured here from left to right are Crew 7 members Brian Padilla-Melton, Travis McElwee, Chris Porter, Cody Hollenshead, and Ralph Johnson.
BOTTOM PHOTO CAPTION…
A year-end softball match became a tradition for the crew from their first year, probably due to their softball-loving leader, Duane Steinbrink. From left to right are ( first row ) Tom Donovan, Mike Huddleston, Josh Quinn and Bill Hickey; ( second row ) Ben Huddleston, Jared Willis, Brian-Padilla-Melton, Duane Steinbrink, and Ralph Johnson. Seated on the chipper truck are Chris Porter, Travis McElwee, Cody Hollenshead, and Nate Malm.
The following link takes you right to page 102 in a ‘preview’ copy
of Conrad’s book about the Prescott Fire Department at ‘Google Books’ online…
https://books.google.com/books?id=vqxqBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102
Eleventh International Wildland Fire Safety Summit
April 4-8, 2011 Hilton Garden Inn Missoula, MT
Promoting the Story of Wildland Fire Safety.
Presentation Title: Accidents, Accident Guides, Stories and the Truth
Presented By: Dr. Ted Putnam, Mindful Solutions
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=05262454341263280395
Curiously and yet not surprisingly, the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (WFLLC) has REFUSED to both acknowledge receipt of Dr. Putnam’s paper and emails at least a dozen times and twice with me emailing his published 2011 IAWF paper and the link to the four key components of the WF LLC, (i.e. Center Mgr. Britt Rosso, Analyst Travis Dotson, Asst. Director Alex Viktora, and Writer/Editor Paul Keller.
NO RESPONSES and NO REPLIES to either Dr. Putnm’s numerous emails nor to my two emails regarding posting Dr. Putnam’s published paper on their WFLLC website.
The WFLLC Mission Statement: “Our Mission is to promote learning in the wildland fire service by providing useful and relevant products that help to reveal the complexity and risk in the wildland fire environment.”
Clearly, Dr. Putnam’s published paper dealing with wildland fire management’s mishandling of Serious Accident Investigations and Reports and the lies and cover-ups and whitewashes align squarely within the realm defined in their Mission Statement.
Indeed, a published paper in the highly esteemed wildland fire association, the IAWF (International Association of Wildland Fire) should by all rights be published in the WFLLC website. Their Mission Statement requires it: “… promote learning in the wildland fire service by providing useful and relevant products that help to reveal the complexity and risk in the wildland fire environment.”
The disclaimer guarantees they can publish whatever they want: “Disclaimer: Information is provided with the intent to share knowledge to improve safety, performance, efficiency and organizational learning throughout the entire wildland fire community. No warranty or guarantee is implied because much of the data provided is beyond the control of the center.”
While at the Wildland Fire safety Summit in Shelter Island, CA in April, I attempted to get my questions regarding their reluctance to post or respond in a group setting for Mr. Rosso’s half-hour session explaining the WFLLC. He saw me with my hand raised numerous times during this time yet never called upon me.
I chose the more public setting because I wanted everyone in the WF Safety Summit group to hear their reasoning or whatever excuse(s) they felt justified their not complying with their Mission Statement.
Copy and paste the 2018 Agenda link below into the URL slot to access:
http://caloes.ca.gov/FireRescueSite/Documents/2018_SOF_Final_Agenda.pdf
Moreover, Mr. Rosso will privately acknowledge that it was my 70-80 Wildland Fire Fatalities, Burnovers, Fire Shelter Deployments, Investigations, and the like from my personal FOIA and/or various State Records Requests given to the original WFLLC Center Manager Paula Nasiatka in 2002. He has never acknowledged this publicly in a group setting nor on their WFLLC website.
Please take the time to contact these WF LLC members by phone and/or email and ask them to post Dr. Putnam’s paper and if not, WHY they will not post Dr. Putnam’s paper on their website.
Britt Rosso (520) 799-8760
Alex Viktora (520) 799-8748
Travis Dotson (520) 799-8763
Paul Keller (520) 799-4861
Per the WFLLC website: “… in 2002 the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center was created. Today, the LLC operates as a national, interagency, federally-funded organization with interagency staffing. The LLC’s primary goal continues to be striving to improve safe work performance and organizational learning for all wildland firefighters.”
I allege that these are your Federal Tax Dollars being misused by those that somehow feel they are above the law and will not even comply with their own Mission Statement …
Try another area via cell
Not able to post
Great note taker..thanks Gary… but not a snitch wink wink or tattle tale gal (please don’t ask my brothers about 1984 when my mom went to Solid Gold tv show with my aunt and what my brothers and cousin did with my aunt’s car…hee hee I wont tell…her hee) but keeping it pure raw and real Gary…Bob who in my opinion was one of the core areas of what I call the hidden disease to the DNA of the fire industry…for the actions he did long ago and still lets it lay quiet…well I am not so quiet…I with pride can post that email and soon some commercial records too…God Bless the TRUTHS…READY
SET
HERE I GO:
Gary Olson/AZSO/AZ/BLM/DOI@BLM
05/10/2006 11:13 AM
To
Bobmutch (deleted)
cc
Ted Moore/R2/USDAFS@FSNOTES
Subject
Re: Battlement Fire
Bob, no, I didn’t know that you led the recent staff ride for the Battlement Creek Fire. I was communicating with Rowdy Muir, and I must admit that I am a little confused as to exactly who is involved in this project, what their roles are and what the status of the project is. I just know that I was shocked that after 30 years this incident came back into my life.
As the years went by, I though less and less about it until Rowdy’s first e-mail that brought the memories back with a vengeance. I have recently confided some of my thoughts with a very close friend from the old days, Ed Hollenshead to get his perspective. I was actually unaware of how close he had been to the situation until we started talking about it, specifically his relationship with Tony Czak. I am going to send you a couple of e-mail’s that will give you the background in regards to my involvement in this project.
But back to your specific question, no I don’t have a PowerPoint; I originally offered to make one, but lost the motivation finish it due to what I perceived as a lack of interest in my participation. My friend Ed however, has encouraged me not to be so difficult to work with, so I still may be able to contribute something, even if it is nothing more than providing copies of the pictures I took that day. I have some pictures of the fire tornadoes and one that I took of the slurry bomber seconds before he crashed. Rowdy was kind enough to send me a synopsis of some of the conclusions reached at the end of the staff ride.I believe these conclusions are partially accurate but miss the mark on what I believe were the primary causal factors.
If you e-mail your address I will send you copies of my pictures on a disk. I scanned them from the originals, (I don’t have any idea where the negatives are) they are ones I took using an old 110 Instamatic so the quality is not very good, especially after all of these years. Later, Go
Gary: Thanks so very much for responding to my e-mail about Battlement. Over the past 30 years Battlement has meant a lot to me, as it was a key event in my 53 years in fire management (fire research and fire management), after starting out as a rookie jumper in Missoula in 1954.
Because of Battlement I devoted much time during the remainder of my career to go anywhere and speak to anyone about wildland firefighter safety. A year ago I read the Portal to Safety paper written by Paul Chamberlin and realized that I probably had passed through a similar portal so long ago as a member of the Battlement Investigation Team.
Recently I thought I finally had located the phone number of John Gibson, Squad Boss of the Mormon Lake crew who was with Tony, Steve, and Scott at the end. I always have had some questions I wanted to ask John: like why they waited so long before trying to escape down ridge to the burned area safety zone from the day before; and did they ever consider escaping to the east where there was aspen and where the fire never burned. But the John Gibson at the number I called sent an e-mail and said that he had never fought fire. So I shall continue to look.
I went to Flagstaff during the investigation to speak with more people, Bill Buck told me to close the door and sit down. I had known Bill for a long time and that may have been part of the reason he was open to talk. He said that the Hotshot program on the Coconino was partly at fault for what happened at Battlement.
As he was a former Marine, I could understand his viewpoint that when Hotshots trained on the Coconino they were instilled with a huge dose of esprit de corps. I can still remember him saying that Hotshot crews did not just run the obstacle course, they ran it with 50 pound packs on their backs. He felt that a can-do spirit may have become a reckless spirit on the Mormon Lake crew. Of course, the Fire Boss at Battlement had singled out the Mormon Lake crew for the burn-out operation at the top of the ridge on the 17th based on their good work on the southern fireline on the 16th.
And on the 17th there were reports that Tony was head down and burning with torch in hand rather than leading the crew with full attention to all operations. Can you tell me if Mormon Lake was using fusees or drip torches on top?
It seemed to me like there were numerous weak links in a chain and as each link was broken the safety of the Mormon Lake crew became more compromised. Certainly on weak link was the fact that initial attack by the Volunteer Fire Department failed on the 12th and the fire grew to larger size with wind on the 15th. Also, an adjacent Sector Boss was going to warn Tony to move out, but after the Fire Boss cussed on the radio (to someone else it turned out) the Sector Boss felt that there was no need for him to say anything. And right near the end the crew could have saved themselves if they had headed for the safety zone when the other 15 members left.
Yes, I would very much appreciate receiving a disk with images. I just scanned prints and slides I had from the investigation. You could mail the disk to me at Bob Mutch, (deleted). Thanks for being open to further communications–there are still lessons for others to learn.
Best regards…Bob.
**
** THE BATTLEMENT CREEK FIRE ‘COVERUP’…
Just in case it’s not exactly clear what is being revealed in the post above… here’s a little ‘context’ that helps explain how this email above proves there was a ‘coverup’ regarding the Hotshot fatalities on the Battlement Creek Fire…
On July 17, 1976, 3 members of the Type 1 Mormon Lake Hotshot crew lost their lives on the Battlement Creek Fire, and another hotshot was severly burned.
The three hotshots who lost their lives were…
Anthony A Czak, 25 years, of Flagstaff AZ
Stephen H Furey, 22 years, of Salmon ID
Scott L Nelson, 23 years, of Bloomer WI
John Gibson, 23, survived but suffered second- and third-degree burns.
The previous day ( July 16, 1976 ), a B-26 airtanker had crashed while dropping fire retardant, killing the pilot.
The Battlement Creek fire was the 17th fire that season for the Mormon Lake Hotshots, whose home base was the Coconino Forest.
The Happy Jack Hotshots ( also based on the Coconino ) were also there at the Battlement Creek Fire… and the famous hotshot Gary Olson was there with them on both the 16th, when the plane crashed, and the following day when the 3 Mormon Lake Hotshots were killed.
Official USDA BLM Accident Report regarding the fatailites
on the Battlement Creek Fire…
https://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/1976-07-17 battlement-creek-final-original-doc.pdf
Robert W. Mutch is the 3rd ‘Submitted By’ signature right at the top ( page 2 ) of this official accident report.
‘Fire God’ Bill Buck was ( at that time ) the Forestry Management Officer on the Coconino National Forest, the home base for BOTH the Mormon Lake Hotshots AND the Happy Jack Hotshots.
In the email above, Battlement Creek accident investigator Robert ( Bob ) Mutch tells hotshot Gary Olson…
“I went to Flagstaff during the investigation to speak with more people, Bill Buck told me to close the door and sit down. I had known Bill for a long time and that may have been part of the reason he was open to talk. He said that the Hotshot program on the Coconino was partly at fault for what happened at Battlement… He felt that a can-do spirit may have become a RECKLESS spirit on the Mormon Lake crew. “
Keyphrase: “I went to Flagstaff DURING the investigation”.
That means that Bob Mutch had the conversation with Bill Buck described in the email above WHILE he was the ‘lead investigator’ for the Battlement Creek / Mormon Lake Hotshot fatalities and BEFORE any ‘report’ was issued.
So this was not just some ‘idle conversation’ between investigator Bob Mutch and Coconino National Forest officer Bill Buck. This was PART of Mutch’s investigation into the possible causes of the fatalities at Battlement Creek.
But NONE of what Fire God Bill Buck told Battlement Creek investigator Bob Mutch was ever mentioned in any official ‘report’ about the fatalities.
The RECKLESSNESS that Bill Buck was TESTIFYING about was simply ‘covered up’.
The similarities to Yarnell and the Granite Mountain Hotshots and the SAIR report are striking.
History DOES tend to repeat itself ( if you aren’t learning anything from it ).
Broken link in the post above.
Here is a better link to the original ( official ) Battlement Creek Fatality Accident Investigation Report…
https://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/1976-07-17-battlement-creek-final-original-doc
Lead investigator Bob Mutch ( who was the one telling Gary Olson about Bill Buck’s ‘behind closed doors’ testimony in the email above ) signed the document at the top.
Crap… ( left the .pdf extension off ).
How about… “3rd time is the charm”?…
https://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/1976-07-17-battlement-creek-final-original-doc.pdf
WTKTT,
You have really been paying attention because you hit the nail right on the head several times. I am working on my thoughts specific to the email and will post them later. Thank you for your insights and I would like to hear from others before I post my thoughts.
Thank you
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 12, 2018 at 8:36 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> You have really been paying attention because you hit the
>> nail right on the head several times. I am working on my
>> thoughts specific to the email and will post them later.
>> Thank you for your insights and I would like to hear from
>> others before I post my thoughts.
Other than the fact that the email reveals that even ‘Fire God’ Bill Buck ( the guy who practically invented the ‘can-do’ hotshot mindset ) was admitting ( to Battlement Creek lead investigator Bob Mutch ) that this whole hotshot “can-do” or “esprit de corps” or “esse quam videri” ( or any other ‘motto’ based training phrase ) thing can, in fact, be taken TOO FAR and, itself, lead to RECKLESS and DANGEROUS behavior out on the fireline…
…there are a number of other astounding things being revealed in just this one email.
I was also struck by this part of what Battlement Creek lead investigator was telling you…
“Recently I thought I finally had located the phone number of John Gibson, Squad Boss of the Mormon Lake crew who was with Tony, Steve, and Scott at the end. I always have had some questions I wanted to ask John: like why they waited so long before trying to escape down ridge to the burned area safety zone from the day before; and did they ever consider escaping to the east where there was aspen and where the fire never burned. But the John Gibson at the number I called sent an e-mail and said that he had never fought fire. So I shall continue to look.”
Key phrase: “I always have had some questions I wanted to ask John: like why they waited so long before trying to escape down ridge to the burned area safety zone from the day before; and did they ever consider escaping to the east where there was aspen and where the fire never burned.”
Are you fucking kidding me?
Years later… this Battlement Creek lead investigator is only THEN admitting ( to you ) that he didn’t even BOTHER to ask the burnover survivor John Gibson those IMPORTANT questions WHILE he was one of the ‘lead investigators’?
That would be right up there with IF any of the GM Hotshots from the deployment site had survived… Dudley and Mayhew and the SAIT not even bothering to ASK him how ( and WHY ) the hell he and the others ended up in that damn fuel-filled box canyon at that absolute WRONG time to be there.
Even as it was… the SAIT did a similar thing and CHOSE to not ‘verify’ all those communications with Granite Mountain which are KNOWN to have been taking place… and they CHOSE to just report there was a “33 minute gap in the information available”.
So there really is a ‘common thread’ to these fatality investigations.
“Never ask questions you don’t WANT to have answered.”.
John Gibson was, in fact, the Mormon Lake Hotshot who WAS with Tony Czak, Stephen Furey and Scott Nelson when they burned to death. He was almost the 4th fatality… but survived ( badly burned ).
John Gibson WAS ‘interviewed’ before the final Battlement Creek Accident Report came out… and that is the reason we know the following details about what happened during the burnover…
From the report…
PDF page 64 ( of 131 pages )…
—————————————————————————–
While the fire was overrunning the four burnout squad members shortly before 1448 m.d.t. July 17, 1976, crewman Nelson stood up from his prone position on the fireline ( their attempted refuge point ), shouted, “I’m on FIRE!,” and ran downhill into the fire area below the burnout squad position. His body was later found with his burned watch nearby stopped at 1448. He was badly burned.
Shortly after Nelson left the burnout squad position, crew boss Czak stood up, shouted unintelligibly, and ran generally down the ridgeline. His body was later found approximately 1,100 feet away from the burnout squad refuge position. He was burned, but much less so than Nelson.
Crewnam Furey and squad boss Gibson remained, apparently in a prone position in the burnout squad location. Both were burned as the fire swept over them. Furey’s work trousers and fire-reistant shirt were burned entirely off his back except for small fragments. He was in considerable pain. Gibson advised Furey to remain on the ground, to try to rest, that help was on the way. Gibson heard a helicopter overhead at this time.
Furey stopped breathing moments later, and expired there on the fireline despite efforts to revive him.
——————————————————————————
The accident report also shows that the survivor ( Gibson ) WAS ‘interviewed’ later that very day, in the hospital, by Colorado BLM Safety Officer Dick Huff and Grand Junction Fire Department staffman Gus Juarez…
——————————————————————————
July 17, 1976 – 2330 ( 11:30 PM )
Huff and Juarez interviewed survivor at St. Mary’s Hospital. Gibson was sedated and in pain. A nurse was present during the 20-minute interview.
July 18, 1976 – 1930 ( 7:30 PM )
Accident Investigation Team Members Wilson, Heilman, Mutch and O’Dell interviewed Mormon Lake squad boss Kimball.
July 19 – 24
Accident Investigation Team Members continued field investigation.
July 24 – August 3
Individual team members continued work on assigned portions of ( this ) report.
August 4 – 6 met in Denver, Colorado, to complete draft of ( this ) report.
——————————————————————————
There is also this proof ( in the ‘Findings’ section ) that survivor Gibson HAD been ‘interviewed’ before the report came out…
——————————————————————————
The four-man burnout squad remained together when overrun by the fire. Sometime during or immediately after the fire passed over them, two men of the burnout squad left their refuge site and ultimately perished. The remaining two men of the burnout squad stayed in place. The survivor stated that he remained prone while the fire passed over.
——————————————————————————
But even with all of that ‘proof’ that survivor John Gibson WAS ‘able to be interviewed’ even just hours after the incident… your email from investigator Bob Mutch proves that he ( and other investigators ) didn’t even bother to ask him some of the most important ‘investigative’ questions.
Like WHY those 4 men were WHERE they were… WHEN they were there.
If they had evacuated the area along with the rest of the Mormon Lake Crew, then 3 of them would NOT have burned to death that day.
So exactly WHY those 4 men ‘stayed behind’ only to be trapped where they were would have been one of the most important things to know for anyone investigating this accident.
But ( as we know now )… they never even bothered to ASK Gibson about any of this at the time they were creating their ‘accident report’.
And then there is Bob Mutch admitting to YOU that the failure to ask those questions at the time bothered him for YEARS… so much so that at some point he started ‘Googling’ to find this ‘John Gibson’ just so that he could finally ask him those questions he SHOULD have asked him in the first place, when he was one of the ‘lead investigators’.
Un-frickin-believable.
SIDENOTE: Since Bob Mutch told you that he made the trip to Flagstaff and the Coconino National Forest DURING the ‘investigation’ and to specifically “speak with more people” about the incident… then according to the timeline published in the report itself this official ‘investigative visit’ to the Coconino and his ‘behind a closed door’ conversation with Fire God Bill Buck probably took place between July 24 and August 3 ( 1976 ),when the timeline says the investigators were (quote) “working on assigned portions of this report”.
Bingo…you keep knocking it out of the park to mix my metaphors. Yes…this email is truly astonishing and reveals volumes, which is why I call it the “Smoking Gun” email. It alone reveals the entire corrupt FIRE program led by the USFS.
And FYI…BINGO was how I started the email I immediately sent back to Mutch telling him Buck had it RIGHT and completely understood why the Mormon Lake Hotshots died.
And now…thanks to my participation here, I now understand that is also why the legendary covered in glory 75th Ranger Regiment Black Beret Wannabes…the El Caruso Hotshots died as well. And BINGO…I now understand why the GMIHC died also.
Once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern. Oh…and with my BINGO comment and follow up questions, Mutch realized how fuckin’ stupid he had been to send me that email because he knew then who and what I am so he cut off all further communication with me.
And now you know the rest of the story, I didn’t think up my mantra, “Hubris, particularly hotshot crew boss hubris, is the number one killer of hotshots.” Well…I made up that exact wording, but not the concept.
Bill Buck acknowledged and verbalized the concept to Mutch a long time ago. And yes…my hero and principle Fire God Bill Buck became part of the cover up and conspiracy the minute he said, “Close the door.” And then he confirmed his guilt when he didn’t object to the final report and the omission of his interview. Buck should have been indicted and prosecuted along with the rest of the fuckin’ criminals.
And FYI, you probably know the law views an OMISSION of a material fact exactly like it views a LIE about a material fact.
You also know now how come I named my highly acclaimed and much anticipated tome., “BETRAYED By Our Fire Gods.” Bill Buck wasn’t the first fire god to betray us ground pounders and grunts and unfortunately, Shawna Legarza won’t be the last.
And this riff aren’t the sum total of my comments on this email, I just wanted to comment on your comments. There is still a lot to unpack in this one relatively short email.
And here is some backstory to enter into your memory hard drive that may assist you in making further computations…or at least help you understand the inbred incestuous WF Culture even better.
Ed Hollingshead was the on the Flagstaff Hotshots with Tony Czak. Ed went and worked for the Peace Corps in Guatemala for two years because he had a BS in Forestry from NAU. When he came back, he was able to get hired as the Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew Boss. while I was a squad boss on Happy Jack. We didn’t know each other at that time.
By the time I became the Happy Jack Hotshot Crew Boss, Ed had moved on to the Santa Fe as a professional forester, which is where he was when I later moved on to the Santa Fe to start the Santa Fe Hotshots. Ed was still young and a real fuckin’ hell raiser.
Ed and I became close friends because of our common background and love of raisin’ hell. Plus…we were both Class A Assholes and macho men. Ed liked to party with the Santa Fe Hotshots and come to our cabra roasts, he was accepted by the crew because he was my buddy. We played video games all night while I was babysitting, went deer hunting and worked out together.
Ed then transferred to the Prescott National Forest (no shit, here is where it gets good) as the Forest Fire Management Officer/Timber Staff because both programs were relatively small on the Prescott.
Ed also began moving up the ranks on Fire teams and became Type II Incident Commander. Ed also became best friends with wait for it…Darrell Fucking Willis because they both loved to elk hunt on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon and they were both hard core…no, very, very, very hard core, wait for it…Christian Fundamentalists. I met Darrell through Ed because Prescott was still my home town and Ed and I were still buddies as saw each other often because my mother still lived in Prescott.
Ed was like me and a fanatical ex hotshot and he is THE reason the GMIHC were ever created. He and Darrell Willis worked together to make it all happen. Darrell as the Prescott Fire Department Chief and Ed as the Prescott National Forest “Fire Chief.” Together they formed and then controlled the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra. Ed’s son was one of the original Granite Mountain 7 Crewmembers.
Ed was the IC of the Dude Fire and my sources tell me he was the primary architect of the Dude Fire Disaster Cover Up.
At the time that email was written, Ed was the Assistant Director Of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 5, California and the Pacific Islands. R 5 has a FIRE budget that is more than allof the other 9 Regions combined. R5 is really a big deal in the WF FIRE World.
A short time later, he became the Director Of
R5 after the Chief of the US Forest Service was finally able to force out the dinosaur who was the Director and install Ed as his hit man to take a meat ax to R5 FIRE and clear out all of the dead wood. Dead wood in the Cheif’s opinion anyway, hard working loyal veterans in other people’s opinion. I say “potato”, former Vice President Dan Quail says ”potatoe.” I never had a dog in that fight.
The way I remember it, Ted Moore (the other person I CC the email to) was the Director Of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 2, (mostly Colorado) who was sponsoring the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride.
I kept Ed in the loop on everything, in other words, both Ed and Ted Moore knew the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster was a cover up and neither one of them gave a flyin’ fuck!
Yep…like I have written before, there isn’t 6 Degrees Of Separation in the incestuous and inbred WF Community, there is usually only 1 Degree Of Seperation. Everybody Fucks Everybody.
Whoops…”HOLLENSHEAD” not Hollingshead…sorry Ed, late night fightin’ my Demons. You have the same problem…right?.I think everyone who is an old timer in WF does. There are lots of secrets.
Ed and Tony Czak were both squad bosses on the Flagstaff Hotshots, during Van Bateman’s Reign on the crew…I guess. That was before my time on the Mighty Coke. I know Ed was very much a favorite of Bill Buck.
Ed was at Tony’s wedding, maybe as Best Man? Ed and some others built the first rock cairn on the site near were Tony ended up on the Battlement Creek Fire Fire. The origin of that rock cairn is a mystery to most WF who have hiked the fire scar.
I think Duane Steinbrink was just a pimple on Ed’s and Darell’s asses when it came to creating the GMIHC. That was the Ed and Darrell show all the way.
Ed was always the Wizard behind the Big Green USFS Curtain on the GMIHC production First as a Granite Mountain 7, and then later converting them to become the first city fire department sponsored hotshot crew. That was always the end game.
Oh…and one more thing. I think Eric Marsh was never anything more than a pawn in Ed’s and Darells game of 3D Chess.
Ed and Darrell are both really, really, really fuckin’ smart and manipulative.
Kind of like I used to be back in the day…except they were both much better at it than I was. : )
Like I wrote before, I use my blogging here like they use Old Man Gloom in Santa Fe. It works.
Ed and I used to get drunk at the Sant Fe Hotshot parties, except Ed would get a lot drunken than me and then he always wanted to fight me.
Ed wouldn’t stop until I was sitting on his chest restricting his breathing until he promised to be good.
One time. I did a wrestling/judo throw and he landed on top my assistant crew bosses big dog house and smashed it to pieces. We became infamous on the Santa Fe for that fight.
I still love Ed like a brother from another mother. I went to San Francisco on my way to the Land Of The Midnight Sun to visit Ed at R5 after I retired.
But remember…this isn’t about who or what I love This is about doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Ahhhhhhhh….memories.
Oh…and then several years later, Ed came up and spent a week goofing off with me when I was in the Olympic Pennisla Jeeping and taking photos. That is how I know Ed has Nightime Demons just like I do.
Now that I think about it, Darrell must have been the one who brought Christ into Ed’s life and helped him get reborn?
I do know Ed goes to bed every night and wakes up every morning expecting to be Raptured that very day. I eat ice cream etc. Ed drinks bottles of hard alcohol.
But that’s no big deal, most old Fire Dogs go to bed with a bottle. Most old and former LE officers and agents do as well.
Ed gave me the combo to his gun safe because he said he wouldn’t need it anymore and because I wasn’t with the program…I was going to need the extra firepower! : )
Oh…and one more thing. I’m fuckin’ with Ed because I think he needs to come clean about the Dude Fire Disaster Cover Up. It can’t hurt his career now.
I keep telling you that if you stick with my stories long enough…I usually have a point to make.
I was just reading up on the Dude Fire and I found something I want to share with you.
“On the way down, they met Hoke, who was still inside his shelter. He emerged from his cocoon and joined the survivors. Ellis appeared next. As he walked toward the men, with his shelter tied around his forehead, his skin and clothing burned, the life drained out of him. “I’m dead,” Ellis told the others, and then he sat down on a log and died.”
And I want to walk back what I said about Steinbrink,. Its just that I am still pissed off about the BULLSHIT movie. Let’s just say that both Marsh and Steinbrink were merely pawns in Ed’s and Darrell Fuckin’ Willis’ 3D Chess Game.
Why go to that much trouble? It had never been done before so it was a challenge to men who liked challenges.
And…hotshot crews bring recognition and glory to their home bases and sending units, As I have stated before, hotshot crews are the pride and joy of the WF community and culture.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on May 10, 2018 at 8:56 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Clearly, Dr. Putnam’s published paper dealing with wildland fire management’s
>> mishandling of Serious Accident Investigations and Reports and the lies and
>> cover-ups and whitewashes align squarely within the realm defined in their
>> Mission Statement.
Yep. ‘Clearly’ is right.
For them to not respond at all ( not even with a ‘rejection’ notice and a reason given ) is ( among other things ) just plain rude.
Since the WFLLC is funded with our money ( Federal taxpayer dollars )… a targeted FOIA would probably produce documents showing them discussing this ‘request’ internally and reveal WHY they are so reluctant to even just add a link to their website.
So much so that I want BLM Bruce Olsen to tell the world his TRUE ACCOUNT after YHF and the meeting of supervisors and authoritarians and HOW they were TOLD to ENSURE each and everyone’s log books MATCHED another…Strange indeed being my left is not always your left depending where you were positioned on YHF but yes I feel the day of the tragedy and that week as it unfolded reminded me much of Bob and reason I have no problem sharing how piss poor I think Bob did just because a fire about happened in your own backyard for YHF does not give you the clout and credibility and reason to honor the fallen by teaching at an academy if you cannot even HONESTLY share the events in pure form as I have see over time back channel on the ones on the line…time to STOP the Bobs of the world and start healing because you are teaching me more deaths are to come as it has been shown with Battlement Creek and Mann Gulch and etc…It is time for the young generation GET they were bled and fed lies…off to next conference…might even meet an old poster on IM if she has the passion for weather as she placed out…if so then she will be at this next conference indeed. God Bless you Bob Mutch…God Bless…
Reply to Joy A Collura post on May 8, 2018 at 9:45 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> I was reviewing old footage — question,
>> the 21 videos – where is that on JD’s page — I am seeing
>> a video I had not seen and wanted to compare so anyway
>> to quick link me to that area…
>>
>> Thanks…
The reason all 21 of those videos taken by the Prescott National Forest employees ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) don’t appear in the original IM ‘SAIT’ evidence folder that is online is because the SAIT was breaking the law and WITHHOLDING that evidence.
Mike Dudley and the SAIT always had all 21 videos ‘in their possession’… but they consciously chose to WITHHOLD that evidence from all legal Arizona Open Records requests for the SAIT evidence material ( like the one made by InvestigativeMEDIA ) AND they decided to break additional laws by also WITHHOLDING that evidence from the official Arizona government agency with the full legal mandate and authority to fully investigate all Arizona workplace related fatalities ( Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health – ADOSH ).
The only reason those 21 videos ever surfaced at all was because of a ‘followup’ FOIA request from InvestigativeMEDIA, once it became obvious there WERE more ‘videos’ and that they WERE being ‘withheld’.
Once it became known that the original ‘HelmetCam’ video clip that was actually quoted in the original SAIR was shot by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd… InvestigativeMEDIA was then able to ‘target’ a specific FOIA request directly to the Prescott National Forest requesting ALL Yarnell related videos from ANY Prescott National Forest employee.
Until that happened… Mike Dudley ( and the rest of the SAIT ) thought they were going to get away with ‘hiding’ these videos forever.
But once that follow-up FOIA request targeted the now-known actual SOURCE of all the videos… the cat was out of the bag and they knew they were going to have to finally release those videos.
That’s when they decided to do a classic “get out in front of the story” move and they then ‘pretended’ that Arizona Forestry itself had requested all 21 videos… and they then made sure Arizona Forestry had a chance to ‘publish’ them first… before fulfilling the original InvestigativeMEDIA FOIA request.
There are even other emails now ( also obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA ) which show USFS employees talking to their own lawyers about how to TRY and make this all ‘look good’ once they realized they were going to have to fulfill a valid FOIA request for the videos.
When they actually ( finally ) fulfilled InvestigativeMEDIA’s ‘follow-up’ FOIA request… it was ‘announced’ in the following public article…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: InvestigativeMEDIA posts first set of Forest Service videos
Published: November 17, 2014 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/investigativemedia-posts-first-set-of-forest-service-videos/
From the article…
——————————————————————————————————
InvestigativeMEDIA has posted 12 of the 21 videos released by the U.S. Forest Service in response to its October 13, 2014 Freedom of Information Act request.
The videos are being uploaded directly to a Dropbox account from the DVD the Forest Service mailed to InvestigativeMEDIA in early November.
The remaining 9 videos will be uploaded as soon as technical issues related to uploading very large files to the Dropbox folder are resolved.
——————————————————————————————————–
NOTE: The remaining 9 videos ( bringing the total to 21 ) appeared in the same Dropbox as that first set of ’12’ just days later.
InvestigativeMEDIA Dropbox account containing ALL 21 videos…
Folder Title: FS 21 videos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ipv8to6ih7gmzbq/AAC82U3UuheEtc8GPHFn91vea?dl=0
( Continued next Reply )…
** THE ARIZONA FORESTRY COPIES OF THE SAME 21 VIDEOS
But here is the “get out ahead of the story” website that Arizona Forestry fired up just days before the USFS actually delivering the videos to InvestigativeMEDIA…
Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management Page Title: Newly Acquired Yarnell Hill Video
https://dffm.az.gov/New-Video-Clips
The full text of THEIR page ( along with clickable links for all 21 videos )…
———————————————————————————————————
Newly Acquired Yarnell Hill Video
On November 7, 2014, the following video clips were received by Arizona State Forestry through a Freedom of Information Act request to the US Forest Service. To be transparent with the public, the videos are presented exactly as they have been received. The redactions were done before these videos came into the possession of Arizona State Forestry.
File Links:
0630131532
0630131533
0630131534
M2U00261
M2U00262
M2U00263
M2U00264
M2U00265 Previously Released
M2U00266R
M2U00267
M2U00268
M2U00269
M2U00270
M2U00271
M2U00272
M2U00273R
M2U00274
M2U0075
M2U0076R
M2U0077R
M2U0078
Arizona State Forestry has not received any identifying or clarifying information from the Forest Service.
———————————————————————————————————
BY THE WAY…
NONE of these ‘copies’ of the videos are actually ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the originals, as required by law when fulfilling a valid FOIA request.
ALL of the videos have been ALTERED… with the original metadata removed, and perhaps even parts of the videos themselves removed. A few of the released videos have actual REDACTIONS in them… done by someone at US Forestry who didn’t wanted certain things in the original videos to be made public.
SIDENOTE: All of the video links on that Arizona Forestry web page are just ‘jumplinks’ to an Arizona Forestry ‘YouTube’ channel they created as a place to actually upload all the videos. The individual video links all still appear to work… but if you access the actual Arziona Forestry YouTube channel at…
YouTube Channel: AZSF – 45 Subscribers
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMRObR3M0M4Fw90ZeXF4NUA
…you get a blank page now saying “This channel doesn’t have any content”.
Thank you.
So I do not lose track—I will go LOOK now and confirm.
I really appreciate you taking the time out for me WTKTT-
🙂
also if you were on the SAIT or ADOSH teams…I know alot of heat has been shown your way but sheesh it is 5 years later and all the data that I have reviewed…there just is not enough time in the day to get through it all but could you imagine with folks who aim just for facts and not piecing together all of it…this is one heck of a huge layered onion…
So really YES there is omissions in this YHF and many other types of fires and the abundances of fires stories and their aftermaths
yet YHF will not remain in the dark ….anyone watching sees that light ahead… keep the hope…ok…
also Sunday, June 30, 2013, 4:08:32 PM Tom took an excellent photo and I won’t be able to share it since you lay in area of hush hush but that photos…the ones of ALL those FFs…was it Glendale and SunCity West and Blue Ridge and all those OTHER FFs at the ranch house restaurant that hour—where is those photos for the SAIT team or ADOSH team…why wasn’t those fella interviewed formally BEING IT WAS THE CRUCIAL TIME SPOTS…”just saying”
QUESTION TO YOU ALL: do you think once this pact of all of yours or whatever the “label” is that keeps you all quiet once it is “out” and it will be out just so you know…do you think people are going to really appreciate such…I have a question WTKTT…is that criminal to withhold or have a pact or say less is best? Once the facts are presented publicly can any of those people be sued and if so by whom? loved ones of the 19? other FFs? homeowners? general public? who? or are they on the free card list as Gary puts it like Dudley is on…Dudley got data- we know that…yet it never sits in the SAIR…and I hope Mayhew realizes the very team he was on there was much focal areas that were not shown in the SAIR…that you know is true. Well, I am looking forward to my time with Ellen…happy day girl 😉
Oh…and one more thing.
To further establish my street creds as a Situational Independent by demonsrearing my right to free speech on this thread by excercising my 1st Admedment rights (and yes, I do understand the 1st Amendment only applies to govt.. restrictions, here that duty and responsibility falls to JD) I want to state I am in 100 % support of the Totue Queen Gina Haspell (who ran a Black Site in Thailand) being our next Chief Spook…our very own Bad Ass Bitch like “M”. We need to make the blood of the enemies of our Republic run cold and sometimes run freely. And that includes homegrown Quislings. God Bless America!
I will be back when it is time to post my smoking gun. In the meantime the stupid fuck who wrote it blood can run cold, both he and Bill Buck and everyone who was told what they did during the official investigation of the Battlement Creek should have gone to federal prison for 18 USC 1001 and Conspiracy to defraud the government And the very same things applies to Mike Dudley and his Gang That Couldn’t Shoot Straight. And guess what…The statute of limitations haven’t run on their crimes…yet.
Now…do I sound like a fuckin’ Democrat. Nope just an old man who has learned how the world works…and often doesn’t work right.
I just can’t think of his name right now because you know…I’m an old man. “There is only one thing you can safely assume about a busted down old man…he is a survivor.” (“The Way Of The Gun” on Netflix right now).
But that doesn’t matter because Joy already leaked it to you. What is that name again Joy…I forgot?
Oh…and one more thing. The way our system of justice works is the following;
1. A law enforcement agency with the authority to do so, has to investigate the alleged crimes and then submit the results of their investigation to a prosecutors office who has the authority to prosecute the alleged criminal violations.
2. The prosecutors office I previously mentioned has to then evaluate the report of the alleged crimes to
determine if all of the elements of the crime were actually violated by those who stand accused, and those acts meet the standards of that office in order to utilize limited resources to follow through on a prosecution.
3. A judge who supervises a court with the authority to hear the case in question has to decide to allow the case to go forward once it has been filed with said court.
4. A jury has to then find the defendant(s) guilty of the crimes they are accused of and jury nullification in these kind of cases isn’t uncommon, hence the reluctance of law enforcement, prosecutors and judges to ever put the cases into the hopper in the first place.
So…Mike Dudley and his Gang That Couldn’t Shoot Straight can sleep easy tonight and all future nights as well, at least as far as the federal and state crimes they committed while preparing and publishing their Book Of Lies pertaining to the Yarnell Hill Fire goes, but that doesn’t make it right.
I’m simply telling you what could and should happen because of what they did. I don’t even know all of the crimes they violated, I would however, bet my life they violated the following crimes at a minimum. Making false statements pertaining to a material fact over which a government agency has jurisdiction, conspiracy to violate both state and federal laws, wire fraud because they transmitted documents by email in the furtherance of their crimes, and mail fraud because they transmitted documents by mail in furtherance of their crimes.
Those stupid fucks are probably not even aware that they committed any crimes because so many people have been getting away with doing the very same thing for so many years.
The U.S. Forest Servive FIRE program is dirty, dirty, dirty, and as I like to say, as goes USFS FIRE, so goes the entire Wildland FIRE culture and community. And I love that culture and community, but this isn’t about who or what I love…it’s about doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Hey…don’t shoot the messenger.
YOU people paid millions and millions of dollars (as I like to write) counting training, equipping me to do my job and salary while I trained and gained the level of expertise by the time I retired as a wait for it….a federal Supervisory Criminal Investigator GS – 1811 Senior Special Agent while working for a federal agency for their Washington D.C. office.
So…it’s YOUR fault…I am just telling what I know based on my education, knowledge. training and experience.
Oh…and when I first became a federal agent, I raised my right hand and swore an oath to YOU people to protect, uphold and defend the U.S. Constitution in YOUR name and on YOUR behalf. So…
Oh…and one more thing. IF my son would have choked up chunks of his burning lung tissue so hard he disconnected his tongue from the back of his throat while he was being burned alive on the Yarnell Hill Fire….I would be meeting with Special Agents from the FBI, US Department of Agriculture Office Of Insoector General and USFS, in addition to my Congressional delegation including my representative to Congress and Senators plus the Chairman of the Public Lands subcommittees in both houses and raising hell until I was banned from every office, oh…and the US Attorneys Office For the District Of Arizona and the Arizona Attorney Generals Office and the Arizona Republic newspaper.
No brag…just stating a fact. If you give me a few hours to interview Mike Dudley, I will be very nice and polite to him, but at the of our session, he will agree that it isn’t the original crime that can often get you in as much trouble as the cover up can. I would give him a really good fuckin’ and at the end of it he would shake my hand and thank me.
Oh…and I love it. The Queen Of Torture looks like your spinster Aunt Judy who used to take you out ice cream cones on your birthday. I bet that Bad Ass Bitch is cold blooded!
God Bless America for patriots like her and the teams of Black Op cold blooded killers who have been set loose upon the world to hunt down and kill the enemies of our Republic. Those like Gina Haspel who are willing to do terrible things to terrible people in so we can peacefully sleep in our beds!
Oh…and I have a very important announcement. I am just teasing Joy about leaking the name of that stupid arrogant fuck “what’s his name”.
Like I said when I started posting here five years ago, I don’t have any secrets from you people who are among my closest friends and confidants, just things I haven’t had the chance to tell you yet.
Joy is, as she has always been in my mind, a real sweetheart and a great friend to wildland firefighters who sounds like she is is well on her way to become one. I didn’t tell her not to mention stupid fucks name when I sent her that email with my
“smoking gun” in it.
In fact…I sent it to a whole bunch of people because I didn’t give a fuck who knew his name. I don’t care if Joy publishes my “Smoking Gun” email right now because it doesn’t really matter. Nothing is going to change anyway.
Joy…I have decided it is past time to share that email with our entire readership, which is probably about 12 people. So pleas go ahead, you publish it and then we can discuss among ourselves what if anything it means.
As you all know, here on this thread I am “Unplugged Gary” and I am way off the Rez as I channel my old
“back of the hotshot bus self.”
And just look at how much I know! I was a well placed insider at one time up to the Regional level of scuttlebutt and Rumor Control, but I haven’t been there for 30 years since I left the USFS in late 1988.
Just think about how much the real insiders like my primary critic Professor Tweed has to know. Too bad some of of those people don’t tell you the real inside gossip, all of our questions would be answered in very short order and then we could discuss politics full time.
On a side note, that is also why I was so dangerous to the BLM In that agency I was plugged in all of the way to the Washington D.C. level of dirt. And if you get me drunk enough, (which should be easy since I don’t drink and haven’t since I was a hotshot) I have some really good stories to tell…if you give a shit about hearing how dirty and fucked up the BLM is all the way to the top.
Oh…and one more thing. Joy is also a great note taker who is amazing at summarizing bullshit. It sounds like it was knee deep in San Diego at that circle jerk. Although Joy would be great at summarizing anything, she just happened to be listening to BULLSHIT in San Diego.
Wait until you compare what that stupid arrogant fucks “what’s his name” said in his “off the record” email from his public persona of being “Mr. I really care about Wildland Firefighter Safety so much it hurts” bullshit!
Just enter his name plus a couple of identifiers like, US Forest Service, Wildland Firefighter Safety etc., he is really full of shit, just like so many of the closet criminals in that sanctimonious, hypocritical, in bred incestuous WF culture.
Those people really need someone to grab them by their pussies (calling President Trump, clean up in aside 3) and shake them up. They have been getting away with too much shit for way too many years.
Know what I mean? Are you pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down?
Wail…is referring to Joy as a “real sweetheart” disrespectful? I don’t think so since I call Professor Tweed my BITCH (non gender specific).
Look…I don’t care how much blah blah blah the WF culture shovels at San Diego or anywhere else. Don’t you people get it? You are rotten from the head which means the whole body stinks.
You have a culture…that has been generating and accepting fictitious cover ups on your disaster fires since they began doing them! And then you base your training on those false Big Lies.
What can you possibly say with a straight face that means anything about Wildland firefighting Safety or training when that is your baseline?
WTF…Over?
Oh…and one more thing. Law Enforcement training is based on factual and legitimate investigations and it has been that way for decades.
The NTSB isn’t alone in being honest. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the WF Culture isn’t the only one who write fairy tales in place of well founded and truthful investigations.
And yes…I am getting frustrated.
Although just to be clear, I am opposed to using enhanced interrogation techniques, AKA…torture. Jioh McCain, who President Trump said wasn’t a war hero because he was captured, says torture ir really bad and it doesn’t work because people will tell you anything you want to hear to get you to stop torturing them.
Anyway…Senator McCain who is one of my major heroes, was tortured because he wouldn’t accept early release to give the bad guys a propaganda coup because both his fath and grandfather were Navy Admirals and commanders of the Pacific Fleet. I think his father was commander at that very time.
Anyway, Senator McCain and all of the experts plus the Geneva Convention say torture is a bad thing for us to do, which I agree with. I just don’t think we should hold Gina Haspel for carrying out our governments policy years later. I’m really glad we had this discussion and cleared that up so I can sleep better. Thank you,
And she sounds like one Bad Ass Bitch, I hope she gets the job of Chief Spook.
who are you ranting to??? Glad you had what discussion? Gary are you on a destroyer-of-the-world rant on Trump?
Thank you…I think…for the compliment…did I enter a land mine maze here…I know I skim but should I be thinking there is eggshells here? Or just say it how I feel it like normal?
do you really want me to go “search” for that ages ago email and what post it all?
You crack me up. 🙂
“survivalist”…”sensitive” that is me Gary but what gives with the word sweetheart tied to my name—silly you….Diane Lomas is a sweetheart…my mother in law is a sweetheart…Lois Porowski is a sweetheart…,me, I am a little kind hearted but I do fall more on the person who calls out TRUTH to power…does that make me an ancestral Quaker Gary? Either way the only power I want to see or hear or feel is a POWER nap…good night Gary…No late nights tonight for me…I was reviewing old footage—question, the 21 videos- where is that on JD’s page—I am seeing a video I had not seen and wanted to compare so anyway to quick link me to that area…
Thanks…
also Sonny said he used “M” word but he meant the “H” word…I won’t post either but he did say he wanted me to correct it so there you go—best I will do…
Now for Chief Spook…wth? Over.
I have to back pedal and take back what I said about hoping the Queen of Tortue gets the job to be our Chief Spook (Joy…she is up for Senate confirmation to be the Director of the CIA),
John McCain has come out in opposition to her confirmation, so I guess she is just a little too Bas Ass. And I am going to have to go with what Senator McCain say’s, since he was tortured by the NVA for 5.5 years. And as far as all of the Trump sycophants go who have been talking trash about him, I hope they all burn in Hell.
And as far as “Our Dear Leader” goes, that career criminal disqualified himself to ever be my President when he talked trash about my hero and then sealed the deal when he made fun of the disabled reporter.
Trump is an evil man and my rant was for anyone who wanted to read it. But he will be gone soon enough now that the FBI Public Corruption Squad from the New York Office and the US Attorneys from the Southern District Of New York have his fuckin’ Bagman looking at about 100 years in a federal penal institution. The Calvary is Comin’!
And yes, I have talked about that email long enough, please publish it here so we can discuss just how dirty, dirty, dirty the fuckin US Forest Service FIRE Program is at the Regional and National levels no matter how much I love them, or used to love them and still love all things FIRE related. But like I wrote before, this isn’t about who or what I love, this is about doin’ the RIGHT THING!
Oh..and one more thing. Bobby Tree Sticks is coming’ too, by day and by night…he is comin’ for the five time draft dodger.
“When Robert Swan Mueller III deployed to Vietnam as a Marine infantry platoon commander in 1968, he surely knew it would be difficult. Mueller’s regiment, the 4th Marines, had faced bloody jungle warfare for months, and Mueller joined in them in a hellscape at the tail end of what military historians say was the service’s defining year in the war due to the size and scope of their operations.
Mueller ultimately earned two awards for valor, suffered a gunshot wound to his leg while responding to the ambush of fellow Marines and was reassigned after his injuries to serve as an aide-de-camp to the commander of the 3rd Marine Division, then-Maj. Gen. William K. Jones. In that role, Mueller excelled using a “diplomatic and congenial manner” that “significantly contributed to the rapport” Jones had with local Vietnamese officials and military officers, according to one account of Mueller’s actions.
These are among the details of Mueller’s military service outlined in documents released to The Washington Post by the National Archives. They were requested in the process of reporting a new article that details the rise of both Mueller, a former FBI director, and President Trump from similar wealthy circumstances to where they are now, as Mueller investigates potential links between Trump’s 2016 president campaign and the Russian government.
Mueller’s active-duty military service, often mentioned glancingly in profiles about him, began in August 1967, when he began training at the Marine Corps Officer Candidates School at Quantico, Va. Marine Corps documents show him in the service’s system dating back to August 1966, when he joined as an enlisted private, just weeks after graduating from Princeton University.
Mueller also attended the Army’s Ranger School, a highly regarded course for combat leadership, and its Airborne School. The assignments are unusual for Marines and, typically, set aside for just a handful of the best each year.
In combat, Mueller was a member of H Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, an infantry unit assigned along dangerous Mutter’s Ridge. It was a section of Quang Tri province that overlooked the Vietnamese Demilitarized Zone that separated North Vietnam and South Vietnam.
For his actions, Mueller would receive the Bronze Star with “V” device. Four months later, Mueller was shot in the thigh responding to the ambush of some of the Marines under his command. A description of his actions from the Navy Commendation Medal with “V” that he received.
Despite his wounds, Mueller did not return to the United States. He healed nearby and then became an aide to a senior officer, Jones, who was a towering figure in the Marines. Jones had earned a Silver Star and Navy Cross for valor as a battalion commander during the World War II battles of Tarawa and Saipan, respectively, and went on to become a regimental commander in the Korean War.
Jones regarded Mueller well, said retired Marine Gen. James L. Jones, who was William Jones’s nephew. The younger Jones did not know Mueller during the Vietnam War, but he learned about Mueller’s past service to the elder Jones in former president Barack Obama’s White House, where Mueller was the FBI director and the younger Jones was his first national security adviser.
“He was always well prepared,” the retired general said of their shared time in the White House. “He’d done his research, he’d done his homework, and he presented his viewpoints in very clear, unambiguous terms. It was very easy to see where he came from.”
After Mueller returned from Vietnam, he served briefly in a headquarters unit at Henderson Hall, a Marine Corps installation near the Pentagon. He left active-duty service in August 1970. His last rank was captain.
In 2004, the Army’s Ranger Hall of Fame inducted Mueller. The shrine recognizes Rangers who have distinguished themselves among their peers, as well as Ranger School alumni like Mueller who did not serve in a Ranger unit, but graduated from Ranger School and distinguished themselves in other ways. Voting for the board includes senior soldiers from the elite 75th Ranger Regiment, leaders from the Army’s Ranger Training Brigade, and representatives from nonprofit organizations associated with the Rangers.
The hall credited Mueller with leading the FBI “through the dramatic transformation required in the aftermath of the September 11th terrorist attacks.” It cited his continued leadership in transforming the bureau into a modern counterterrorism agency.
“His law enforcement acumen, coupled with his valiant efforts to protect our homeland, will ensure his legacy of fearlessly leading the way,” the shrine’s leadership said, riffing on the Ranger motto: “Rangers Lead the Way!”
From the “Washing Post”, which is part of Trump’s Fake News who exposed the “Pentagon Papers” and help bring the Vietnam War to an end.
Damn auto correct…”Bobby THREE Sticks” is comin’!
Oh…and one more thing. I will do a low crawl across broken glass naked to vote against “Our Dear Leader”! I hate that man just that much.
And I don’t Facebook, Tweet on Twitter, post on Instagram or “Anastasia.com”, I blog here…so all my haters should get over it!
Oh…and RTS has an even better true story he could tell about just how dirty, dirty, dirty the US Forest Service FIRE outfit is at the Regional, National and sometimes even the Forest level. Ask him to share.
Whoops…can’t do that, I am the only one who is filterless here, or anywhere else for that matter. I have nothing to lose.
And the first rule of being a member of http://www.anastasia.com…is to never talk about http://www.anastasia.com
Whoops…broke that rule!
Just joking, I don’t have any idea what http://www.Anastasia.com is, but I would like to. know.
I am tired
and I did take alot of detailed notes on May 3-4, 2018 Camp Pilgrim Pines, Yucaipa CA
yet let me start with outline and some notes
but I will do the rest in the next few days…here is a very good meeting I think you should never miss…
During this 2 day event many of FFs came to me and said when I went to restroom it appeared as they looked at my seat I was taking precise note-taking and I said I try and it would be view-able on INVESTIGATIVEmedia as soon as I can for the locals and world to see and they said they would visit here…so here ya go fellas…some notes and work on more as the days go on..
I highly recommend joining today as a member for only $5.00 or next year go to the 2 day conference and the membership dues is included in that cost because this year’s 2 day conference ($125) was quality all over from facilitators to board members to members to speakers to the lodge’s meals and accommodations— well worth the monies you spend to attend and loads of data to learn.
Southern California Association of Foresters and Fire Warden
Membership in the Southern California Association of Foresters and Fire Wardens is open to anyone that desires to join.
SCAFFW organization is comprised primarily of firefighters and foresters from Southern California who are involved in the control of wild land fires and vegetation management.
Their purpose is to provide a two day Annual Conference with programs relating to the training and safety of our members and others involved in wild land fire control.
Since 1930, the Southern California Association of Foresters & Fire Wardens
has brought together people from all across the Southland to focus on training and safety in the field of wildland fire suppression.
I, JOY A COLLURA, think this conference is valuable data for all folks even outside the fire industry to those who have a home outside the normal cookie cutter city subdivisions.
If you purchase a Conference Attendance, your annual membership fee is automatically included FREE.
Since the initial meeting of the Association in 1929, followed by the first conference in 1930, dedicated men and women of the fire fighting agencies of Southern California have supported the organization and have served as officers, directors and members.
h t t p:/ /w w w .scaffw.o r g /wp-content/uploads/2015/02/scaffw-2015-history.pdf
In Memory of Gary Helming
Gary Helming, a Battalion Chief with the Los Padres National Forest in southern California, was returning from a wildfire on the Sierra National Forest when a Ford F-350 traveling in the opposite direction suffered a tire failure, crossed the middle of the road, and struck his vehicle head-on. Chief Helming was killed and the other driver, Antonio Avalos of Santa Maria, was airlifted to a hospital.
The accident occurred on Highway 41 just south of state Route 33 in Kings County, California.
Chief Helming had been released the previous evening from the Railroad Fire on the Sierra National Forest. (source: WILDFIRE TODAY h t t p://wildfiretoday.c o m/2017/09/25/roadside-memorial-for-gary-helming/ )
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Acknowledgements
Our very own FAVORITE Brian Tai
(Mystery Ranch)
was a vendor
and he is also from
US HOTSHOTS ASSOCIATION (anyone can join- join today)
( h t t p://w w w.carryology.c o m/insights/specialist-carry/specialist-carry-firefighter-2/ )
( h t t p s://w w w .mysteryranch.c o m/mystery-ranch-history —
h t t p s://w w w linkedin.c o m/in/brian-tai-a3b2ab85 )
Everyone hearts Brian…especially when he wears blue 😉 Hee Hee- right Bethany…”great” person.
Then also ALLSTAR FIRE EQUIPMENT, GROSSMAN BURN CENTER, LINE GEAR AND RESCUE EQUIPMENT, COBRA LITTER, FIRE ETC, MES and thanks to CALfire and Kern County FD and Ventura County FPD for all their help to pull off the 88th Annual Conference.
I also thank IM for their participation and the honor to be there myself in person too to learn terminology of the different cultures of the fire industry.
I appreciated it alot
thank you.
I hope to keep going back there each year as I get older and older and be one of those that have been there 43 to 55 years— I applaud that dedication.
However, my time there seem to be going all smooth until the NETWORKING SOCIAL where I learned there was misinformation and misleads were being presented about JOY A COLLURA to this organization’s board member(s) and it was inappropriate/unethical/unprofessional for me to hear news that was happening back channel and YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE so please stop stating or every time I get emails or texts or in person seem so sweet to me but back channel I am hearing it all another way
and it always the discords core again to some of the same folks I mentioned over time on here
and some of these member folks at conference were originally basing their views based on your thoughts until I factually showed them proof and if you are about TRUTH and it matters than stop creating discords…the whole theme of this meeting was building relationships —
REMEMBER!
so please take that away as you left that meeting…let it all cease…it’s rubbish.
I speak facts on you. I also share to others they can do their own fact checking too by getting their own public records on certain names and they too can see the behind the scenes discord those folks keep creating and it really does not make sense when they blame the participation to IM as their reason for continued discomfort and gossip in a defamation/derogatory fashion…it is unbecoming…sad.
how does that make you feel as a retired school teacher Diane Lomas that your curiosity for TRUTH may get you ousted if you keep trying to seek it out and participate on IM
…TRUTH MATTERS
and it should never be about some click…
Gary has it right…it is not about the Christmas card roster list you have…
Sat, May 5, 2018 at 9:41 AM Sonny said and I copy and pasted: ” If you watch the movie (2015) CONCUSSION you will understand that these big companies hire plenty of doctors to back up what they want you to believe. They make that s*** totally harmless. It’s it’s just like when you see people that should be listened to like Fred Schoeffler and Lance Honda his friend that wrote about the thing that you’re trying to defend and help change. Those men have years and years of experience in Wildland firefighting. Where I have none and even if I had a little bit it would be that I were a nobody compared to RTS, Woodsman, Rocksteady, WTKTT, Gary, Bob Powers, Lance Honda, Dr. Ted Putnam, and other Wildland firefighters with such a experience and knowledge. yet the government won’t even listen to them how much would they listen to a fellow like me. I would be beating my drums just so I could hear myself beat them because nobody else wants to listen or will listen. Certainly I have posted about the Wildland firefighters being “M”. I have posted about the terrible effects of the retardant on the human body. Yet I might as well be pissing into the wind. So I’m not going to let my ego get up to think I’m helping anybody to any degree. Certainly I understand the loss of loved ones especially the effect on the children of the families and the elders that have lost sons in firefighting specifically what I know about at Yarnell Arizona. There should be some consolation to the families that men of the caliber of Gary Olson with others I mentioned found on investigative media have taken up on themselves too tell the story as they have seen it. There are just too many retired and Savvy Wildland Fire fighting bosses and other professionals in the firefighting profession to not take notice that they offer a completely different understanding of the “M” of those 19. You have my permission to post this on investigating media. After all I’ve been portrayed as a common drunk so whatever I say is junk. But they can’t call what the professional say junk. And after their papers writings and opinions posted on investigative media, we know the state’s investigation, the movie as moving as it is, all should be relegated to the trash can. They are trash as far as the truth is concerned. Joy hang in there you’re a hero exposing things because of your information, your photos that don’t lie, and your impeccable reputation.”
PROGRAM OUTLINE
Thursday May 3rd, 2018 0900- (actually began Thursday, May 03, 2018, 9:08:34 AM) Opening of the 88th Annual Conference President Dan Snow, Forest Safety Officer San Bernardino National Forest Good Morning. Welcome to the 88th Annual Forester…
left…left…left…right…left Honor Guard Orange County Fire Authority Honor Guard prayer…in memory Gary Helming Bell Ceremony I did not hear any bell Thanks all the directors and others Invocation Jim Cook, CAL FIRE (Ret.) 9:15-9:22am Pledge of Allegiance Tony Caezza, Ventura County Fire Department, Retired Introduction of Program Kurt Zingheim 1st Vice President, CAL FIRE MVU Introduction of Master of Ceremonies Tony Varela, Assistant Chief (Ret.), Los Angeles Fire Department
0930- actually 9:25am until 10am Keynote Address Thom Porter, Southern Region Chief, CAL FIRE Robert Baird, Director of Fire and Aviation, USFS Region 5 1000- Break 10:01am TIM ERNST states- raise hands to who is NEW? Very good amount raised their hands and did some Tim Ernst raffle announcements and new style to Bingo and switch today’s Carlos Garcia with DOZER ROLLOVER as far as changes 1015- Thomas Fire Initial Attack: Effective Branch Management Chad Cook 10:20am , Assistant Chief, Ventura County Fire Department Dustin Gardner, Assistant Chief, Ventura County Fire Department John McNeil, Division Chief, Ventura County Fire Department Fred Burris, Battalion Chief, Ventura County Fire Department 1100- Los Angeles Fire Department Creek Incident Propane Explosion Carlos Garcia, Fire Captain II, Los Angeles Fire Department 11:15-11:52 this was switched for the next day slot that dozer rollover is in… Los Angeles Fire Department Creek Incident Dozer Rollover Andy Carter, Firefighter – Heavy Equipment Operator, Los Angeles Fire Department
1145- actually 11:53am Introduction of Vendors and Exhibitors Tim Ernst, 2nd Vice President, Los Angeles Fire Department and did some raffles then 1200- Lunch and raffle after lunch Thursday May 3rd, 2017 1300 1:09-1:28pm – CHP Safety Message 1315- Montecito Mudslide and Debris Flow Incident Woody Enos, Operations Division Chief, Santa Barbra County Fire Department 1345 1:46pm then to a long break and return at 2:30pm…by 2pm the videographer was asked to stop recording because the 2:30 to 4:30 presenters (MacLean and Neill) opt to NOT RECORD their presentation and the audience was asked to respect the speakers to not engage in dialect and there will be no Answer and Questions part and to reach them during SOCIAL NETWORKING time – Vendors, Exhibits & Demonstrations Break Out 1430 – Yarnell Hill – 5 Years Later John MacLean, Author Holly Neil, Safety Matters
Now, here is a issue that arose. EVERYONE was told in the start of MacLean and Neill’s presentation to WAIT for NETWORK SOCIAL HOURS and NOT to speak AT ALL during the presentation. The agenda had them on for 2 hours. Unfortunately 52.75 minutes into the presentation which I had emailed both Neill/MacLean at 3:30pm about how to get more data on the stobs topic…. right when I went to send email I noted this swift humanly brush movement into the center aisle from back of room to the front in a passionate resolute corrective tone and it was SAIT HUMANS FACTORS Investigator for YHF yet no paper is attached on HUMAN FACTORS in this SAIR; ???— 39 y.o. Bradley Mark Mayhew (source: FIREHOUSE magazine: Brad Mayhew served as a wildland firefighter with the USFS Los Padres Hotshots. He helped author the Human Factors pages for the NWCG Incident Response Pocket Guide (2006) and received the NWCG Leadership Committee’s Paul Gleason Lead by Example Award for Innovation in 2007. Through Fireline Factors Consulting, he offers seminars on LCES and other human factors topics. ) (source: FIREHOUSE site: Brad Mayhew is the founder of Fireline Factors Consulting (firelinefactors.com). He has been writing, training and consulting on risk and resilience in fire for over a decade. Mayhew has a master’s degree in Human Factors and System Safety, and serves on investigation teams, including Yarnell Hill (2013) and Coal Canyon (2011). His roles include lead investigator, human factors specialist, training products developer, and investigation process consultant. He served on the USFS Los Padres Hotshot Crew (Santa Barbara, CA) and authored the IRPG’s Human Factors section. He received the NWCG Paul Gleason Leadership Award for Innovation. ) (Source: google search: Monterey Handcrew (US Forest Service) WF. Jan. 1, 2002 – Dec. 31, 2002. Los Padres Hotshots (US Forest Service) WF. May. 1, 2003 – Nov. 1, 2006. Fireline Factors Consulting Consultant. Jan. 1, 2006 – ?. Santa Ynez Flight Crew 528 (US Forest Service) WF. Jan. 1, 2011 – Dec. 31, 2011. 2012: Lund University: Masters Degree in Human Factors and System Safety. 2002: U of A Bachelors Degree. )and he said in one minute and eight seconds before the facilitator interrupted him stating to Brad to talk to John MacLean afterwards and Brad said “yes, sir” then he adds as he walks away “you’re both better than that” which seem longer when you are present like slow motion and I “felt” the frustration in his tone and I personally have been there myself when John MacLean used his presentation time “wasting it” on some comedy relief as I call it describing the hikers on prior presentations nothing to do with the YHF- his friends stated an apology based on what the content had…Brad’s tone was as if a defense mechanism kicked in is all I saw it as…
…John Maclean stated “You take those 2 reports- they will tell you these guys *did not* communicate- they did not march– they did not go ahead…” and then Brad Mayhew stated “That’s not true, man. (pause) You know what (pause) I was on that investigation team- in fact I was a lead investigator…that’s not what our report says. ~~~JOY HERE STATING: I was in shock so for a few seconds I did not hear 5 words spoken~~~~ Brad continues “I don’t appreciate it.” Both MacLean and Neill ask what report…Brad states “Serious Accident Investigation Report. It does not say there’s a communication gap. That is not true what you said. The text *does not* say that. The body of the report gives several examples of communication which were difficult to verify- the executive summary said we could not verify them. Your 33 minute gap is *not true*. I’m open to saying that we need to add to this story…that we need to do better- I am open. I agree with that. And there are passages in there that say exactly that. I don’t appreciate your misleading this room about the content of that report. It’s not right and it’s not fair.” 1630- Networking Social 1800- Dinner 1900- Entertainment
Friday May 4th, 2018 0700- Breakfast 0800- 2018 Fire Weather Seasonal Outlook Tom Rolinski, Meteorologist, Predictive Services Southern California GACC 0845- Cancer Awareness Jeff Hughes, Fire Captain, Orange County Fire Authority 0930- Los Angeles Fire Department Creek Incident Dozer Rollover Andy Carter, Firefighter – Heavy Equipment Operator, Los Angeles Fire Department 10:15 – Break 1030- Santa Rosa Fire Siege Shana Jones, Unit Chief, Lake Napa Unit CAL FIRE 1130- New South Ops 1200- Presentation to Outgoing President 1215- Final Raffle 1230- End of Conference/Lunch
and if anything is wrong here which I doubt because I take excellent notes when focused….but post your feedback
Brad Mayhew much reminds me of the Army/Navy/Marine/Air Force;generals/majors/Lt. Colonels folks I talk to and their kids…He reminds me of a kid of some dad who is important…
Brad was not aggressive in his tone
and when one of the board members stated something to me..
me, a total new person here on the topic of prior history of Brad and he did a wrong that day…
who is wrong…I ask the world?
Let you properly assess and make comments and views and thoughts…
the kid once from the state of Arizona now almost 40- was he wrong?
Yes… if you go back to the facilitator asking to WAIT UNTIL THE SOCIAL to state any feedback or inquiries or such and to respect the speakers choice of how they wanted their presentation…
but then I began to think we only saw 52.75 of a 2 hour presentation and then Brad’s 1minute/8seconds moment then the facilitator sharply dressed and well spoken Tony Caezza interrupted to cease the dialect to show respect to the speakers and MacLean spoke 1minute/26seconds after then it stopped totally
so we never got to hear the rest…
was there going to be that add in about the hikers like in the past presentations…
would he be using my pics without courtesy credit?
I know if he had wronged me I felt it was a honor to be present a this amazing conference filled with top notch folks and I want to keep going year after year so I know I would of addressed it to the board members to address the speakers is how I would of done it if it was about me and my day on that tragic fateful day not as it was shown.
Yet someone from IM was present as well and I know that person stated it was already set-up that the board member(s) thought it would be Fred or me who would of done what Brad did…and after hearing the reasons why from one board member I can state that allegedly Neill had her hand in that discussion just based on the content…but also another woman could of got involved based on the content too but hope one day it can stop— this rubbish really…
I am going for law enforcement PIO so no worries I am not all into your fire industry just been given the honor to trail
and IM folks KNOW back channel it could not have happened if it was not for last Fall’s email from a certain lady who had alleged content on someone from here that perked my interest so now I can say I have made a long time knowing truth seeker like myself and in that I am pleased to keep trailing to any areas I can to ensure things go back to “balanced” because of OTHERS orchestrations and creating discords…
it is very unethical…unprofessional and God knows exactly what is happening in your back channeling methods…and I am not gonna pay it any attention. I will always firmly call it out so the world knows and can assess this YHF and the folks who lay in it…but always I suggest today you go do a FOIA index directory of WHO asks for what and when since the YHF…you would be surprised HOW QUICK some folks turn around of completion of a FOIA are compared to some of us who get garbage or redundant heavily redacted data or NONE at all or ledger data NOT EVEN PERTAINING TO YHF…that’s my story…how about you?
Anyone else have that kind of rubbish happening when you received your FOIA directory on who asked for what and when they asked and when it was completed…you would be surprised HOW some are treated in all this…but no worries I say…
God’s watching and I know I do not have to worry since of course I stick with Him to help me through it all…
I am beat…that was not too bad of a drive from CA…the trip there was longer because I was interviewing some YHF people on the Fire in Strawberry/Pine area and boy…was I close to that evacuation TINDER FIRE stuff and when are the PIOS and media gonna learn not to keep taking the “official” data and run with it…when will journalism be re-birthed and use their investigative fact checking ways again…
oh yeah…nightie night
Did the exchange between Macclean and Brad Mayhew come up in
the social networking that followed?
Funny you mention that.
MacLean was selling books at a table and Neill was talking to some fella during Social Networking YET right before we all were led out from their presentations I was still trying to pack up my bag and noted we were asked to leave the room and yet I did see the 3 were in room so figured the “chat” was to begin once I left so I did head to Darmouth and laid down for a bit to absorb it all in because I can see Mayhew just making corrective statement but what I heard at social networking like Mayhew had a pattern of this odd ways and I did not follow that lingo at all Diane…to me Mayhew was just making corrective statement but during time he was told not to and as I sit with AS MUCH records I have reviewed I think the guy was a part of the interviews and had spent quality time in this yet still to this day Diane his Human Factors report is NOT attached to the SAIR final report—is it? I never found it…have you??? Anyways Diane by lunch Friday chief John Hopkins walked into the lunchroom and had puzzled face and comment and Mayhew looked at Hopkins and stated I AM AMONGST FRIENDS as the place emptied out and it was just MacLean and Neill smiling and conversing and laughter so yeah looks like they worked it all out Diane…all friends now…to me that is a HAPPILY EVER AFTER story if I ever knew one…but I know too much so it is what I said it is because it happen just like that but do I think they are all now friends? I think Mayhew knows as time unfolds there is much more to not just YHF but many fires and how does it all tie into HUMAN FACTORS…he is the new fresh look for HUMAN FACTORS as you already seen Brit Rosso did not place Dr Ted Putnam’s data nor even acknowledge it but boy could that be because someone is trying to toy with his credibility…maybe that SOMEONE may even throw me under the bus yet again and use me actually for ruining his credibility for taking my incoming data like a person learning a fire is known to do no different than when JD took my story and Morgan Loew and Neill/MacLean…Santos..etc..yet those folks were not judged for my data…oh yeah they were…stay CLEAR of the hikers…last I knew I was clear of koodies…but it is all fine…I am very confident in God’s hand in this and I look forward to giving more data to a person I dearly adore who I think will make an excellent book from the data they get as time unfolds…even the bleachers think it is the right path…I agree.
So I will leave it for the academics to do the ink blotting…and Gary to do the Trump ink blotting personality test…for me, I am heading to the next conference and then soon see you Ellen—looking forward to spending time with you 😉
The Summit Daily – Serving Summit County, Colorado
Article Title: Widow of Granite Mountain Hotshot crew leader talks wildfire safety
Published: May 2, 2018 – By Deepan Dutta
https://www.summitdaily.com/news/crime/in-breckenridge-woman-whose-husband-was-killed-in-2013-yarnell-wildfire-talks-fire-safety/
From the article…
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“Colorado is set to burn. Your fire responders are very worried about catastrophic wildfires this season. It is not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.”
Amanda Marsh did not equivocate about wildfire danger when she gave a talk at Colorado Mountain College Breckenridge on Tuesday as part of the Summit County library’s “Summit Reads” series.” That’s because Marsh is a fire widow.
Amanda was married to Eric Marsh, leader of the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew that battled the Yarnell Hill wildfire in Arizona in 2013. The fire overtook the Granite crew, resulting in the deaths of 19 of its 20 members, including Eric. It was the worst loss of life among wildland firefighters since 1933.
The tragic story of the Granite hotshot crew was the basis of the recent blockbuster film, “Only the Brave.” Eric was portrayed by lead star Josh Brolin while Amanda was portrayed by Jennifer Connelly. It’s a story that Marsh tells across the country, with greater urgency when speaking to communities threatened by wildfire, like Summit.
“Since the 1940s, the trend has moved toward Americans wanting to live inside beautiful landscapes. It makes total sense.”
But Marsh said that wanting to be near nature also puts all the risks of nature closer to home.
“We had a very warm, very dry winter. These kinds of dry conditions create perfect environments for bark beetles to ravage pine forests, creating more weak and dead trees to burn, causing fires to burn hotter. Hot, fast, all–consuming fires are becoming the norm.”
WHAT WE LOSE IN THE FIRES
Marsh uses stark detail when talking about what happened to her husband.
“I could paint a prettier picture for you,” she continued, “but that would do no one any good. I have what I call widow brain anyway. I don’t live or communicate in pretty pictures anymore.”
The memories burned into Marsh’s brain include having to retrieve her husband’s dental records to identify his body after it was charred unrecognizable, as well as opening a box of his remains that smelled of smoke and contained tiny, crumbling pieces of the person he once was.
“His body endured over 2,000-degree temperatures,” she said. “The body I knew so well — the freckles, his mustache, his grey eyes, his grin, his salt-and-pepper hair. His tattoos. I paint this picture so you can begin to truly feel that my loss is multi-dimensional. Human. Not words on a paper, not photos in a newspaper. Achingly real. Terribly real.”
The humanity of firefighters was at the core of Marsh’s message to Summit.
“These men and women are not just resources. They are human beings. They are husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters. They choose to do this job because they love it. It takes a whole other kind of person to put themselves in such dynamic work environments. It takes a hardcore work ethic, and a passion for fighting wildfire.”
DON’T BE PART OF THE PROBLEM
Marsh’s mission in Summit was to urge residents to take responsibility as members of a mountain community deeply nestled in forestland – a Wildland-Urban Interface.
“You absolutely live at the heart of the WUI. I ask you, are you prepared? Living inside the WUI creates risk for property owners and pets, but also puts firefighters at risk. You have a massive responsibility if you live in the WUI. You have a responsibility to keep my friends safe while they work in your community.”
Marsh said the responsibilities communities like Summit have include supporting fire mitigation measures.
“Take early measures to create defensible space around your home. Create an evacuation plan for yourself and your animals. Don’t wait until the last minute.”
Marsh added that when homeowners refuse or ignore calls to help with fire mitigation, they’re essentially saying they don’t see value in a firefighter’s life.
“When people don’t create defensible space around the homes, I feel they view our firefighters as expendable,” she said. “When property owners expect firefighters to protect their properties at personal peril, I know they view firefighters as expendable. They view their personal items as more valuable than firefighter safety, and that’s a skewed and messed up value system.
“When you get an alert about a wildfire in your area, prepare to evacuate. When you’re told to evacuate, evacuate. My loss, and losses to all our Granite hotshot families, should serve as a lesson to humans living in the WUI. Allow humans to be human, don’t allow them to be expandable. The cost is too high.”
HELP PROTECT OUR BRAVEST
Marsh added that communities like Summit can also help by becoming a “Firewise community,” which commits to taking sustained action to improve their own safety. She also urged that the community takes care of its firefighters by donating to foundations and nonprofits like the one she started in honor of her fallen husband, the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters.
“Wildland firefighters are incredibly undersupported,” she said. “We raise money and awareness for wildland firefighters. We contact next to kin when a firefighter is killed in the line of duty. We get financial assistance for firefighters injured on the fire line, and we help with PTSD.”
Marsh went on to say that she knew the community implicitly supported their firefighters and that she appreciated that. However, the community’s support also needed to be explicit and tangible.
“It would be simply impossible for any of you to fully understand what it means to lose a firefighter in the line of duty,” she said. “At best you can be empathetic and care deeply. I need that care, all survivors do. But we also need to know you are doing everything you can do to create defensible space so you don’t put firefighters at undue risk. We need your care and your love to turn into action.”
To demonstrate what a lack of action took from her and many other fire widows, Marsh put on an interactive exercise with members of the audience. She split up the audience into groups of 19 and three – the number of Granite crew members who died and the survivors they left behind.
She asked each and every member of the larger group the same question: “Are you expendable?” Invariably, the answer came back, “No.” And that came right back to the core of Amanda Marsh’s message at the top of the hour.
“You value your lives, right? Well, your lives are just as valuable as the firefighters. Cut your trees, maintain your yards, help them stay alive.”
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WTKTT,
Thank you for sharing this article about Amanda Marsh plus all the detailed responses to me.
Reply to Diane lomas post on April 17, 2018 at 2:24 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> I read somewhere that the late evacuation of Yarnell may have had
>> a lot to do with the loss of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
>>
>> I’m wondering if GMHS were waiting in the black to see if anyone else
>> was going to step up to this challenge and when no one else did
>> they moved because they wanted to prevent loss of life in Yarnell.
>> By then, there wasnt enough time to complete the move safely.
There is no evidence or testimony that even suggests this.
As soon as the mandatory evacuation had begun, circa 3:40 PM, MANY people WERE ‘stepping up to the challenge’ down in Yarnell and doing everything they could to get everyone out.
If a bunch of guys with just hardhats and hand tools were needed to help with ‘evacuations’… there was already a fully-equipped Type 1 Hotshot crew right there in Yarnell with their own Crew Carriers and support vehicles… but the Blue Ridge Hotshots were not asked to participate in ‘helping with the evacuation’ in any way, shape or form. They simply exited the Shrine Road and disengaged by staging at the Ranch House Restaurant along with everyone else who were also being told to ‘get off the fire’.
If the Granite Mountain hotshots had intended to ‘help with evacuations’ ( how? ), you would think there would have been some attempt on their part to make sure their own vehicles were being routed to the BSR so they would be there waiting for them when they arrived.
There is absolutely no evidence they ever did any such thing.
If they had ‘inserted’ themselves into the Glen Ilah situation WITHOUT transportation… then they would have just become 19 more people on-foot in the area that would have needed to be evacuated.
Whatever their reasons were for making that risky move… it is highly unlikely that ‘helping to evacuate citizens’ had anything to do with it.
Reply to Diane lomas post on April 17, 2018 at 3:27 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Apparently Eric Marsh gave the final command to move
>> to Yarnell in spite of the danger.
By all accounts… yes.
The totality of the evidence still indicates that Jesse Steed was reluctant to bring the Granite Mountain Hotshots out of the safe black and attempt that risky move to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and he had to be ‘convinced’ to do it ( by Eric Marsh, ).
Reply to Diane lomas post on April 10, 2018 at 10:29 am
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Yarnell evacuation:
>>
>> Is there data to confirm that GMHS moved from the black toward
>> BSR and Yarnell when evacuations began in Yarnell?
Yes and no.
There IS plenty of evidence that the decision to make the risky move took place not long after the mandatory evacuations had begun ( circa 3:40 PM )… and that the GM hotshots WERE ‘fully aware’ those evacuations had started as they were gathered in the ‘safe black’ near the anchor point ( circa 3:50 PM )…
…but there is NO evidence that the ‘evacuation orders’ themselves had anything to do with their eventual decision to leave that ‘safe black’.
The most direct piece of physical evidence which proves that Jesse Steed and the 17 other GM crewman gathered out there at that ‘safe black’ on the ridge WERE fully aware that the evacuations had ‘begun’ comes in the photo and text message that GM crewman Wade Parker sent to his mother right around the time in question.
At 4:04 PM, Wade Parker texted his mother a photo that he had actually taken about 10 minutes earlier… but when he finally got around to sending the photo he added the following ‘text message’…
“This thing is runnin straight for yarnel jus starting evac. You can see fire on left town on the right.”
The part of his text message that says “…jus starting evac” indicates that even the GM crewman were fully aware that Yarnell was now ( circa 4:04 PM ) under a mandatory evacuation order.
The SAIT itself actually included this in their original report on their SAIR PDF page 30.
But just because there is evidence that all the GM Hotshots were fully aware that Yarnell was now ‘evacuating’ doesn’t mean that factored into their decision making in any way.
As I said above… it remains highly unlikely that “helping with evacuations” would have been a big ( much less the primary ) reason why they would eventually attempt the risky move.
If 19 men with nothing but hardhats and hand tools had willy-nilly ‘inserted’ themselves ( on foot ) into the Glen Ilah burnover situation… then they most likely would have just become ‘part of the problem’ and would have become just 19 more people who would have needed to be ‘rescued’ by others who actually had transportation.
Reply to Diane lomas post on May 1, 2018 at 7:38 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Reply to WTKTT regarding deployment scene:
>>
>> It is a concern that the deployment area was disturbed before investigators arrived.
>>
>> Wasn’t the sheriff responsible for maintaining the site until investigtors arrived?
Yes.
He FAILED that responsibility.
Here is what actually happened…
Arizona Department of Public Safety ( DPS ) Officer/Paremedic Eric Tarr was the first person to arrived on foot at the deployment site. He confirmed that all the hotshots were deceased and then= called that in ( including the exact location ) over the radio.
Once the exact coordinates of the deceased were sent out on the radio, Blue Ridge Hotshot Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown came running down to that location from the upper ridge to the west and was then the first firefighter to join officer Tarr at the deployment site.
Close behind him ( and also coming down on foot from the western ridge ) were Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Being the true professional he is… officer Tarr then immediately used a roll of tape he already had ( and some more that he borrowed from the firefighters who had now joined him at the site ) to begin ‘taping off’ the accident scene. He did the north half first.
After taping off the north half of the accident site, he and Brown and Clawson and Hulburd and Yowell then hiked the 640 yards east to the Boulder Springs Ranch and made contact with DJ Helm. He asked her if they could use her property as a staging area and she said yes.
At that point, Jason Clawson called OPS1 Todd Abel and gave him the address of the Boulder Springs Ranch. Todd Abel was now no longer OPS1 for the Yarnell Fire. He was now the ‘Incident Commander’ ( IC ) for the Granite Mountain deployment ‘Incident within an Incident’. Todd Abel then immediately drove out to the Boulder Springs Ranch along with 3 other firefighters that he had now ‘drafted’ to help him with the GM ‘Incident’. Those other three firefighters were Central Yavapai Fire District employees Cougan Caruthers, Steve Emery and Abel’s longtime friend Dean Stewart.
It was now starting to get dark, and Officer Tarr then hiked back to the accident site with the same 4 firefighters who had first joined him at the scene ( Brown, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell ) and now 3 of the ‘Incident within an Incident’ commanders who had driven out to the BSR. Those 3 were Todd Abel, Cougan Caruthers and Steve Emery. Dean Stewart stayed behind at the BSR to begin coordinating things from there.
It was now about 7:29 PM when Officer Tarr and the 7 firefighters arrived back out at the accident site. Brown, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell did not stay at the site this time and they continued hiking back UP and OUT of the box canyon to where their ATVs were back up on the western ridge.
Officer Tarr now borrowed more tape from Todd Abel, Cougan Caruthers and Steve Emery and finished taping off the south side of the accident scene.
When he was finished… Todd Abel now asked officer Tarr if they could CONFIRM his original count of 19 deceased individuals, because the manifest Abel had obtained ( from survivor Brendan McDonough ) only had 18 names on it ( other than McDonough’s ). It would turn out later that deceased GM Hotshot John Percin Jr. was shoehorned onto the GM crew so fast, and at the last minute, ( the Yarnell fire was only the second fire Percin had ever been out on ) that his name wasn’t even appearing on the GM crew manifest that day.
But no one knew this detail at that moment in time… so officer Tarr did, in fact, go back ‘under the tape’ to reconfirm the body count. As he did so ( and at their request ) he ‘allowed’ firefighters Todd Abel, Cougan Caruthers and Steve Emery to ‘follow him in’ and help confirm the body count.
Once the body count was reconfirmed to be 19, all 4 men exited back out ‘under the tape’ that now secured the accident site.
Officer Tarr was now instructed to remain at the accident site to keep it ‘secure’ ( with NO ONE entering the now ‘taped off’ area ) until he could be relieved. He did that… until ‘handing over the security’ of the scene to officers from the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Department.
In his own ( signed ) testimony… fellow DPS Officer/Paramedic and fellow ‘Ranger 58’ Helicopter crewmember Charles Main said… ( exact quote )…
“We decided to leave Officer/Paramedic Tarr on scene, to maintain security, until command could arrange more support personnel to secure the area for the night. Ranger ( 58 ) flew back to the heli-base to drop me off and pick up the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Captain, to get a few quick pictures of the area before sunset. The scene was turned over to Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.“
When officer Tarr finally exited the area, he was driven back north to the heli-base where he gave a ‘debriefing’ to his superiors. He CONFIRMED to them that he had left the scene ‘secured and protected’, and that only he and 7 other firefighters had had any access at all to the accident site.
In his own ( signed ) testimony, officer Tarr reported… ( exact quote )…
“The firefighters that hiked down from the ridgeline and the 3 Incident Commanders that arrived at the Ranch were the ONLY personnel to enter the ( accident ) scene area that I had taped off.”
So officer Tarr believed ( when he finally left the scene ) that he had ‘done his job’ and that it was now ‘fully secure for the night’ and that no further access would be granted until the YCSO detectives would arrive to examine the ‘secured’ accident site.
But he was wrong.
During the night… someone from the YCSO Sheriff’s department allowed any number of people to go ‘under the tape’ and access that ( supposedly ) ‘secured’ accident site before the YCSO detectives could arrive and begin their work.
They walked all over it… disturbing the scene and placing 19 TARPS over ALL of the bodies… and doing who knows what else.
None of the ( at least ) 4 GPS units that Brendan McDonough himself said the GM Hotshots normally carried with them ( including the one that was KNOWN to have been on Robert Caldwell’s pack strap that day ) have ever been accounted for.
SIDENOTE: The two Central Yavapai Fire District employees that accompanied Todd Abel out to the deployment site and helped confirm the body count BOTH ended up having to take extended ‘medical leave’ because of the trauma they experienced that day. In the ADOSH investigator’s notes, they detail trying to interview both CYFD employees Cougan Caruthers and Steve Emery… but their requests were continually denied with emails from CYFD saying they were both on ‘extended medical leave’. They still hadn’t been ‘cleared to return to duty’ by the time the ADOSH report was finalized and released.
Reply to WTKTT regarding deplyment site:
Thank you for your detailed reply and timeline of what happened.
Is there any evidence (other than the GPS devices disappearing) that the site was changed to fit any agency’s narrative of what happened that day?
At what point did Darrell Willis leave the site?
Reply to Diane lomas post on May 2, 2018 at 10:36 am
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> At what point did Darrell Willis leave the site?
Darrell Willis was part of the 12-man ‘honor guard’ that helped actually remove the bodies the next morning, after the YCSO detectives had finished their work out at the deployment site.
He rode down to Phoenix along with the white Medical Examiner vans that delivered the bodies to the Maricopa County Medical Examiners office.
He stayed there during the afternoon ( the autopsies were NOT performed that day ), and then he left Phoenix to return to his home in Prescott.
Here are the last few entries from Darrell Willis’ official ( typed / signed ) ‘Unit Log’ that he submitted to investigators…
—————————————————————————————-
Sunday, June 30, 2013…
06/30/13 – 1640 ( 4:40 PM )
Heard radio conversation about deployment
06/30/13 – 1647 ( 4:47 PM )
Operations ( Todd ) Able calls me on my cell phone and asks if I heard what is going on, he told me what he knew.
06/30/13 – 1655 ( 4:55 PM )
I called TF ( Task Force leader Cory ) Moser and informed him that I wanted him to take the Division ( in Peeples Valley ), to hold the fire with the resources on Model Creek Road and to pick up and slop overs.
06/30/13 – 1715 ( 5:15 PM )
I responded to Yarnell and tied in with Operations ( Todd ) Able and monitored radio traffic on Incident within an Incident.
06/30/13 – 1745 ( 5:45 PM )
Tied in with GMIHC lookout McDonough to determine his welfare.
06/30/13 – 1849 ( 6:49 PM )
Heard radio confirmation that 19 GMIHC members had perished.
06/30/13 – 2000 ( 8:00 PM )
Determined I would work my way in with a number of other friends to guard and protect the scene until investigation was complete in the morning.
The next day… Monday, July 1, 2013…
07/01/13 – 0900 ( 9:00 AM )
Assisted with Body removal to ME transport vehicles drapped in American Flags.
07/01/13 – 1200 ( 12 NOON )
Assisted with delivery of bodies to Maricopa County Medical Examiners Office
07/01/13 – 1700 ( 5:00 PM )
Returned to my home in Prescott
—————————————————————————————–
>> Diane lomas also asked…
>>
>> Is there any evidence (other than the GPS devices disappearing) that
>> the site was changed to fit any agency’s narrative of what happened that day?
Nothing I’m aware of… but I only have access to whatever has been made public about this incident.
There were, at one time, some ‘rumors’ that some of the bodies might have been ‘moved’ to make it look more like they all ‘died together’ in the same spot… but I ( personally ) don’t think that happened.
I don’t know if anyone has ever compared the photos and videos that were taken by that YCSO Captain from inside helicopter Ranger 58, shortly after the bodies were found, to the ‘Faro 3D’ images of the site as the investigators found it the next morning. If there had been ANY changes to body locations/positions between those two times… a comparison of those two imaging sessions would reveal it.
But there has also always been this STRANGE interview with Prescott Fire Department employee Cory Moser, which he gave to local media on the first anniversary of the tragedy.
Cory Moser is the ‘Task Force Leader’ mentioned above in Darrell Willis’ Unit Log. Moser is the one who ‘took over’ Willis’ SPGS2 command in Peeples Valley just after the deployment, so Willis could disengage and travel down to Yarnell.
Moser himself ended up out at the Boulder Springs Ranch later that evening and became one of the ( according to him ) TWENTY to THIRTY ‘people’ that were out at the BSR that night, near the deployment site.
And in a BIZARRE statement in his interview… Moser admitted that there were things he and the others SAID and DID ‘out there’ that night that everyone who was there agreed must always be kept SECRET.
AZ Family
Article: Firefighter who was at Yarnell Hill recalls tragedy, aftermath
First published: Jun 30, 2014 9:52 AM CST
Updated: Mar 11, 2015 7:09 AM CST
http://www.azfamily.com/story/28383127/firefighter-who-was-at-yarnell-hill-recalls-tragedy-aftermath
From the article…
—————————————————————————————–
PRESCOTT, Ariz. — When the thunderstorm collapsed over Yarnell, Prescott Battalion Chief Cory Moser was there, not far from the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
“We knew all these people personally and knew what deploying means,” he said.
Moser was talking about the Granite Mountain Hotshots, who were forced to use their cocoon-like shelters designed to keep them alive if trapped by fire. He said they had confirmation within 30 minutes and the men didn’t survive.
“The No. 1 overriding thought is we got to get these guys back home,” Moser said.
Everything was secondary to being with their fallen brothers. Moser said 20 to 30 people, who all knew these men, gathered on that hill in Yarnell together, yet isolated from the world where the news was spreading.
“We all kept vigil out there all night long,” he said. “It was a long night. I don’t think you would find anyone that was sleepy. We were all pretty wide awake.”
Moser said parts of what he and his men saw, said and did during their nightlong vigil for the Yarnell 19 is something the firefighters have kept to themselves.
—————————————————————————————
“Moser said parts of what he and his men SAW, SAID and DID during their nightlong vigil for the Yarnell 19 is something the firefighters have kept to themselves.”
What in the bloody hell is Moser talking about?
What “parts” is Moser referring to?
Did some sort of ‘secret Masonic ritual’ take place out there that night?
Did they do things they knew they shouldn’t be doing?
WHAT?
What are the things they “SAID” that night that they feel must be “kept to themselves”?
What are the things they “DID” that night that they feel must be “kept to themselves”?
These questions alone still deserve good answers.
WTKTT,
Thanks for posting all this about the allegedly secure YH Fire GMHS Fatality site.
I have been unsuccessful in locating a YouTube video regarding this very same subject and actions of numerous WFs that same night.
It was of a single WF speaking from the YH Fire Fatality site that night and describing these very same details of a vigil and a brotherhood and silence forever about what had occurred there and more.
I believe that this video, like so many others including the 2012 Colby Drake Holloway Fire VIMEO video, have been permanently removed from YouTube and VIMEO.
Reply to WTKTT regarding deployment site:
Those expected to keep the deployment site undisturbed on 6/30/2013 overnight until the detectives arrived included the sheriff as was deternined earlier but also wasnt Darrell Willis also committed to this tSk based on his statement from the fire on 6/30/13 at 8:00 p.m. “Determined I would work my way in with a number of other friends to guard and protect the scene until investigation was complete in the morning”
Yes… but it is also very likely that Darrell Willis himself was the one who decided and/or carried out the plan ( with others ) to trapse all over the ‘protected’ deployment site in the middle of the night… just to lay TARPS over all the bodies… BEFORE the detectives had a chance to examine the ‘undisturbed’ site.
YCSO should have never let that happen.
It is still unknown how MANY people were allowed access to the site overnight.
Whether any of those people who were allowed access to the site overnight were also allowed to REMOVE anything ( before the detectives arrived ) is also a question that still remains to be answered.
Brendan Mcdonough testified to ADOSH that GM normally had at least 4 handheld GPS units with them when out in the field..
NO GPS Units ever showed up in the official evidence record… including the Oregon 450 GPS Unit that was clearly photographed that same day ( by Christopher Mackenzie ) attached to Robert Caldwell’s pack strap
Thanks to WTKTT for providing most of the following:
Arizona State Parks now also has a new ‘page’ talking all about this ‘Return the Favor’ TV show and the new bronze statue at the GMHS trailhead. This is merely another LIE to the uninformed publics that this trail was the actual route the GMHS traveled that day.
Just ask Joy about that blatant disinformation
Predictable drama and histrionics put forward in this TV episode. They would have you believe that if only they had better equipment (including radios) and chainsaws on June 30, 2013, they would still be alive.
There was nothing wrong with the radios that day. The GMHS had more radios than most HS Crews. The problem was that they weren’t being used correctly.
Marsh and Steed were not observing the ‘C’ in LCES and ‘Communicating clearly and effectively’ with neither Operations, Air Attack, and all adjacent resources as prescribed in Fire Order 7.
The Return the Favor episode about Yarnell was first published there on their Facebook page at 9:00 PM on April 16, 2018. By April 18, 2018, the episode was showing 33,038 shares and 2,110 comments.
Direct link to this specific ‘Return The Favor’ episode on Facebook…
https://www.facebook.com/ReturningTheFavor/videos/2056113927993200/
Arizona State Parks new page about the episode ( and the new statue ). Other ( PUBLIC ) articles that have now appeared about this TV episode…
Prescott ENews Article. Title: Mike Rowe Returns the Favor at Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park. Published: 17 April 2018
https://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/31817-mike-rowe-returns-the-favor-at-granite-mountain-hotshots-memorial-state-park
SIDENOTE
In this Return the Favor TV episode is the first we have heard that Marsh’s close personal friend, Alan Sinclair, was ( supposedly ) THERE in Yarnell on the day of the tragedy. It’s also the first we have heard that Alan Sinclair also ( supposedly ) ‘spent the night’ out near the deployment site with Darrell Willis.
Mike Rowe’s producer is the one who is telling Mike Rowe ( while they are driving to meed Sinclair and Willis ) that both men were THERE in Yarnell that day and they BOTH ‘spent the night’ near the deceased hotshots.
When they arrive at the station… Alan Sinclair himself offers the explanation that he was doing ‘Incident Commander training’ that day and was there in some kind of ‘peer support’ capacity.
There is, of course, absolutely no evidence of this in the public record. There is no ‘Resource Record’ for anyone named ‘Alan Sinclair’ having been hired to work the 2013 Yarnell HIll Fire, on ANY day.
Maybe Sinclair was just part of Bea Day’s team that ‘showed up’ in Yarnell along with those men on the so-called Helmet Cam Video (it was a camera and NOT a helmet cam). Even if that is the case…. this is the first we have heard of this.
But Sinclair also seemed to ‘back off’ the producer’s claim that he ‘spent the night’ out at the deployment site. Sinclair offers the ‘Incident Command training’ explanation… but then adds just the cryptic comment that he ‘spent some time with them’.
Both men were THERE in Yarnell that day and they BOTH ‘spent the night’ at the BSR (Helms place) and NOT at the fatality site with the rest of the WF.
Was Alan Sinclair there PRIOR to the deployment… in some kind of ‘Incident Comma nder training’ capacity, as he said in his interview with Mike Rowe…
…or did Sinclair only arrive in Yarnell AFTER hearing about the deployment/fatalities?
From what I know, Sinclair was NOT there prior to the burnover and fatalities. He was allegedly ordered as a Type 2 IC (T), however, once the fatalities occurred, he was assigned as a CISM (Critical Incident Stress Management), a position highly stressed to be filled in these situations these recent past years.
He did NOT spent the entire night at the fatality site.
It seems kinda cheesy that they would both claim they spent the night with the GMHS but instead spent the night in the comfort of the BSR
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on April 26, 2018 at 3:43 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> From what I know, Sinclair was NOT there prior to the
>> burnover and fatalities.
Okay. Thank you. Good to know.
As you know… it is still important to try and identify EVERYONE who was there prior to the burnover because there are still all these mysterious ( unidentified ) ‘voices’ recorded in the radio traffic leading up to the deployment.
It is still absolutely absurd that there have always been ( and still are ) all these various ( recorded ) background radio conversations showing that any number of people were ‘conversing’ with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed even just minutes before they were going to burn to death… and after TWO full ( official ) investigations… we still have no idea WHO some of these mysterious ‘voices on the radio’ belong to.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> He ( Sinclair ) was allegedly ordered as a Type 2 IC (T),
‘Ordered’… by WHO?… and WHEN?
There is no record of anyone named Alan Sinclair being ‘ordered up’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire on ANY day.
Was he really just one of these people that Yarnell IC Roy Hall was willy-nilly calling on the phone to try and ‘ramp up’ his Type-2 SHORT team ( without going through the official ordering process )… or was he automatically ‘ordered up’ by Bea Day when she thought her Type-2 team was supposed to take the wheel that Sunday afternoon?
>> RTS also said…
>> however, once the fatalities occurred, he was assigned
>> as a CISM (Critical Incident Stress Management),
Same question as above.
‘Assigned’ by WHO?… and WHEN?
As soon as the deployment situation became known on June 30, 2013, IC Roy Hall re-assigned OPS1 Todd Able to then be the IC for the new ‘Incident within an Incident’… but there has never been any official record of any ‘hiring’ or ‘assigning’ that OP1 Todd Abel then did… other than grabbing some people who were already there in Yarnell to help him.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> He ( Sinclair ) did NOT spend the entire night at the fatality site.
Then I guess Sinclair just didn’t want to contradict Mike Rowe ‘on camera’ and his cryptic response was just a way of acknowledging what Rowe believed without actually calling him out about it.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It seems kinda cheesy that they would both claim they
>> spent the night with the GMHS but instead spent the
>> night in the comfort of the BSR
Well… I don’t think they were at the BSR the WHOLE time.
It still remains an absolute mystery WHO disturbed the deployment site overnight and actually placed TARPS over all the bodies ( and did other things as well? ) BEFORE the YCSO investigators even arrived and had a chance to survey an ‘undisturbed’ accident site.
These actions caused the YCSO detectives to do a lot of additional work when they finally arrived on the scene.
It meant they had to pause their work and now take TWO sets of Faro 3D images of the accident site.
One set with all the TARPS still in place over all the deceased.
And then another complete set AFTER they had to take the time to carefully REMOVE all the thinigs that should have never been added to the accident site in the first place.
Reply to WTKTT regarding deployment scene:
It is a cocern that the deployment area was disturbed before investigators arrived. Wasnt the sheriff responsible for maintaining the site until investigtors arrived?
Yes.
The Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office FAILED that responsibility.
See a longer response up above posted as a new top-level comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474130
NOTHING’S EVER GOING TO CHANGE! HERE’S WHY:
It’s been almost five years since the tragic incident happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire. While, some of those who had first-hand knowledge of that day’s events spilled their guts to a few others, that entire group of individuals have managed to keep a lid on the truth from getting out to the public, except perhaps, for the lone incident involving the Prescott City Attorney, whose conversation with the Arizona Attorney General’s Office regarding the “argument over the move” was forever immortalized in court documents.
Five years. So, if we were going to see some movement in regards to firefighter safety as a result of the tragedy where ‘nobody did anything wrong’, we would have most certainly seen evidence of some of that movement in the past five years, wouldn’t we? What has actually happened during that time period? Zip, Nada.
For any one wondering where the hell I’m going with this, here goes:
If anything WAS going to happen in that regard, the first thing likely to have been initiated in the furtherance of firefighter safety would certainly entail something; (1) that everyone already agrees is necessary; (2) that has already been proven a success over the long-haul; (3) could be instituted in a single day; and (4) IS VIRTUALLY COST-NEUTRAL!
That something is the implementation of a MAYDAY system. CASE CLOSED.
The fact that this wasn’t accomplished 4 ½ years ago tells the tale of where we are headed overall with wildland firefighter safety initiatives.
Don’t give me the example of how they are working on the development of new “shelters”, when very legitimate concerns have been raised here, and elsewhere, about firefighters not really knowing “How Big is Big Enough”, and whether or not WFF should even be carrying shelters in the first place.
This IM comment page has allowed investigation, speculation, and a lot of other nonsense over the years. Fortunately, that investigation and speculation has brought some additional information to light that otherwise wouldn’t have seen the light of day.
My other pronouncement for today is that, this site has served its purpose and is now a dead horse that people keep kicking.
I have enjoyed Gary’s sometimes crude commentary, which has included some very spot-on characterizations of the YH cast of characters and entities. And Joy, who I have respect and great sympathy for, writes volumes on this site, but over the long-haul refuses to release all of the damning information she claims to have gathered. There isn’t going to be any new information coming from anywhere else, folks. Those people who possess it have either all been promoted, or watched those promotions happen and are just waiting for theirs.
In closing, I wish WTKTT had the time to bullet point the highlights of the YHF timeline and include all of the places the commenters on IM have proven the SAIT and SAIR to be wrong or lying. That would be something of value to a newbie, so they wouldn’t have to try and read the tens of thousands of comments since the beginning.
After 5 years… the persons responsible are breathing a sigh of relief… hoping their secret is safe
I do agree with everything TTWARI Rocksteady said.
I am here to keep writing my book in dribs and drabs and different things that are said by others trigger memories or thoughts for me, so it is working out well for me. This thread has become a very rough draft of my book that is far more complete now because of the interaction here.
The only question now, is will I ever have the interest to wade back through it all and put it togetherand spend years editing it. There is also a huge treasure trove here of thoughts, facts, and experience from many, many others, for anyone to sort through and use or reject for their own purposes.
But there is no question, “THEY” won.
In New Mexico, there is a tradition to write all of your problems down on a piece of paper, and after you tie a ribbon around the middle of it…it kind of resembles the figure of a man they call “Zozobra” or “Old Man Gloom.”
So…anyway, when you burn it, all of your problems are supposed to go away. I have also viewed this thread as a form of digital Zozobra and I suspect others have done the same.
Santa Fe has taken this tradition to a whole new level and it used to be quite the event I tried to go to every year. If you get a chance, you should go.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zozobra
Goggle ”Zozobra images” and you should be impressed.
Whoops,
On second thought, forget that idea, you should avoid going to Fiesta in Santa Fe at all cost, it gets pretty crazy and way too many people are way too drunk.
And the whole thing really gets really primitive and has a very old world pagan ceremony feel to it and the suggestive gyrations of the dancers reaches a frenzy just about the time they torch off Old Man Gloom and they have giant speakers that transmit his groans and roars and just plain weird noises while he is consumed in flames and the giant crushing crowd really goes crazy.
And then the big fireworks show starts and everyone starts drinking again although most people never stopped drinking. It is definitely not any place for the young, infirm, old and most other people either.
And yes…I do realize that although posting my musings and random thoughts here may be therapeutic or help pass the time for me, none of that helps achieve anyone else’s goals, objectives or answer the common questions, but I assume most people deal with that by not reading what I and most other people post unless they are really, really, really bored.
And I forgot to mention the Lou’s drumming transmitted over the loud speakers the dancers do their frenzied gyrations to which is what helps give it the whole scene the very pagan ceremony thing.
And…if you stay to late, that is when the fighting, stabbing and shootings start. All of that is usually just involves the local population because most of the tourists have left by then, but sometimes they get caught up in it.
Make no mistake, Santa Fe does have a very “Macho” culture to it and you aren’t considered a man in many quarters until you have been seriously stabbed or shot in a fight and have done the same to others. So…heads up!
“LOUD” drumming.
My missive above was not intended to convey that there is no more useful information being posted to this site. Instead, I am simply a believer that this site’s usefulness as an investigative vehicle is done.
There has been a lot of important background information revealed here over the years, such as the long history of the various Federal Agencies covering up the truth in their final investigation reports, and perhaps, there will be more of those types of revelations to come. That sort of background information, not the least of which, told how the go-along-to-get-along crowd is rewarded with promotions and awards, is clearly evident in the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Without Gary and RTS having provided some historical context of past cover-ups, people might look at the aftereffects of Yarnell thinking that all those promotions and awards given to the people who shut their mouths was simply a coincidence. History proves otherwise!!
Apparently, based on some recent pictures I’ve seen, those types of promotions don’t allow one to “rock the dreds’ on their way up the ladder.
I’m still agreeing with what you wrote, dismissive or otherwise. At best we have been treading water on this site waiting for the big breakthrough that I now either believe will never come and even if it does, all momentum has been lost to make meaningful improvements to WF safety.
The families and the Yavapai County WF Cosa Nostra- Our Thing were primarily the reasons why the agencies were able to get away with the BIG LIE. I hope they are happy with themselves. Tony Sciacca for one should take his “hot buttons” and shove them up his ass as far as he can using a sharp stitch, what. a LIL Bitch (non gender specific).
And at worst, the things being posted here are a sad commentary on how much time people have on their hands to waste it repeatedly engaging in mental masterbation that is really quite pointless now as it was five years ago except it feels good and relieves some pent up negative pressure.
We got our asses kicked…BIGELY as our Criminal in Chief likes to say. I wonder who is going to raise all of the Trump grandkids after all of Traitor Trump’s kids follow him to prison?
Maybe they will let the wives get away by saying they knew nothing about their crimes? Where are all of them including Our First Lady Melonia and Barron going to live once the government seize all of their assets and return as much as they can of them to the Russian people?
Oh…and one more thing.
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
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LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
Oh…and one more thing.
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
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LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
Oh…and one more thing.
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
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LOCK THEM UP! LOCK THEM UP !
I mean…I told you how the Happy Jack Hotshots could trace their genesis back to a Hopi Type II Fire Crew, the Prescott Hotshots with Tony can trace their genesis back to the Prescott College Type II Fire Crew.
Do you know what that MEANS? We were run like one mean fuckin’ Indian War Party, they were run like just one big fuckin’ party.
Those boys were usually high enough (and probably still are) they could fly to the fuckin’ fires without any wings or rotors.
No wonder they didn’t care Marsh was smoking’ dope on the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho with Globe Hotshot crewmen that included the fuckin’ saw teams.
And for anybody out there who thinks I’m s Bleeding Heart Democrat, I got news for you, I’m a Situational Independent.
For example, spending 10 Billion a year on the Opioid Crisis? Are they fuckin’ crazy? Nobody wakes up and says i think I’ll start ingesting cancer cells today to make myself feel better. Opioid addiction is NOT a medical issue like cancer. Abusing Opioid is a CHOICE.
I want 10 Billion a year to combat carbohydrate
addiction. Do you have any idea how many people die each year from being fat?
Fuck all of those drug addicts, whenever one of them overdoses, that just means there is less competition for the rest of us for finite resources. Do I sound like a fuckin’ bleeding heart liberal to you?
Legalized marijuana? Fuck all of these hippies. Our motto was, “ Bust Theur Ass Burn Their Grass.” Now those were the good ole days!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3-UfClI7-cA
Funny true story, check out all of the the New Mexico deputy sheriffs in my video embedded within my slide show and all of that beautiful marijuana, a heavily armed whole fuckin’ hippie commune went to prison, and then later, that entire sheriffs office went to federal prison for stealing all of that dope and selling it themselves!
Ahhhhh…..memories!There aren’t any good guys or bad guys out…everything is SITUATIONAL! That’s the number 1 lesson I learned in life. So…the fuckin’ liars about the Yarnell Hill Fire do t surprise me a bit. I wish I drank….maybe I will start again like the old hotshot days.
Whoops,
“Bust THEIR Ass
Burn Their Grass”
True story,
So…in the middle of that operation, this stupid fuckin’ hippie and his stupid fuckin’ girlfriend drive into that mess.
I step out of the trees to the side of their Blazer and point my AR-15 at the heads and tell them to get exit the vehicle.
So they tell me, “It’s OK” and so I tell them, “No…it’s not OK, now get out of the vehicle and keep your hands away from that gun or I will kill you.”
Stupid fucks thought I was a new guard for the compound. LOL
And just in case you can’t recognize me, that is me seaching that fuck while he is “up against the wall motherfuckers.”
I really miss the good ole days.
Of…and one more thing. Most of you probably don’t know that Prescott College is a very, very, very, expensive private liberal arts college for rich kids who are all fuckin’ hippies and Democrats that is located in what has always been a small, conservative, religious redneck “Home Of The World’s Oldest Rodeo” cowboy town in the mountains of northern Arizona…weird.
They were the weird hippie kids in the movie “ Billie Jack” that was filmed in Prescott.
“Let’s rap it out”, I used that line a few years ago to give RTS shit for how he ran his hotshot crew instead of the industry standard, “Shut The FUCK Up” if I want any shit out of you, I will squeeze your head!
But I stole that line from “Billy Jack”. Let’s rap it out, LOL!
Whoops,
I forgot the best part of the story I told about the fuckin’ hippies I arrested and took that gun from. That was a handicapped van they had used that gun to steal from a handicapped person the night before.
So…they were the kind of people who should have been killed for the betterment of society. I certainly hope they overdosed and died later or someone else did kill them before they had a chance to hurt someone else.
I think everyone in that small sheriffs office deserved to go to federal prison, just like I think everyone from the Trump Crime Family deserves to go to federal prison.
I guesss there is still a little bit of Eagle Scout in me, even though I know the world is neither black nor white, nor are there just good guys and bad guys, everything is situational.
Although I still prefer to do the right thing and I like it when others do as well.
Here is that handicapped guys story.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0LkpCA-f89E
I guess I should tie that story to the Yarnell Hill Fire and I can. I also think Mike Dudley and the entire group of criminal liars supporting his con should also go to prison because they are endangering WF lives with their lies.
Whoops, I forgot another funny part of the story about the scumbag raggedy ass hippies who showed up in the stolen handicap van in the middle of one of the biggest drug busts in New Mexico history way up in the Monzano Mountains.
The reason all of that video footage of me pulling the guy out of the van and arresting him exists…is because a television news crew from Albuquerque had already arrived by helicopter to cover the operation. Talk about bad timing! LOL
Oh…and one more thing. This thread will come back to life and have new purpose just as soon as some more wildland firefighters are killed for some very inexplicable reasons this coming FIRE season. It is not a question of if…it’s a question of when and where. So…
Gary.
And what does this all have to do with the YH Fire and Granite Mountain HS or anything at all related to wildland fire?
Nothing.
Unless you are smart enough to shift through the chaff for lessons on life that do apply to the Yarnall Hill Fire and Wildland Firefighter Safety.
But…that would require you to expand your world and open your mind, and I know how challenged you are in seeing beyond the horizons of your world.
Do you want me to list the lessons in life I have learned through these experiences and countless others I have had in my long and convoluted journey and through this life?
I have weitten several times over the past five years that most…if not all of my stories have a point to them IF you can stick with them long enough.
If you can’t, no hard feelings…just pass on reading them and then you won’t have to use your highly RESTRICTED band width to question, “what, or why.”
You don’t have LIMITED band width because as I have also written many times, I know how “smart” you are,,just OBTUSE….with very limited experience.
But then again…that is a problem that is systemic in your culture…I have also written many times how much I used to be just like you. And then I grew up, which I deeply regret. I was much happier being like you.
Oh…and one more thing to cut to the chase what is really bothering you…Cohen is done, you can stick a fork in him. YOUR President is next. The investigation can’t be stopped now…it has EVOLVED. (Silence Of The Lambs) and metastasized well beyond the reach of any man.. 🙂
Wait…do you here that? The Republic is saved, the Good Guys are on the way! God Bless America!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yrvGcCK0o_o
Or better yet, let’s moderinize for our generation.
CHARLIE DON’T SURF!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vP-mwk00MgM
Okay…let me take you by the hand and lead you to water to see if you will drink.
It doesn’t matter how much the Bad Guys lie, cheat, steal, or how clever the con artists and grifters are, this story WILL have a happy ending because of the Good Guys. Just like I believe the same thing will happen to those who are hiding the truth of what really happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The truth will eventually be known, our challenge is to NOT give up. (See…The Pentagon Papers) it is just going to take a little longer.
Oh…in addition to God Bless America, I should have added FUCK THE RUSSIANS and all of their apologists and supporters!
Okay…just one more because I like you so much.
CHARLIE DON’T SURF! = RUSSIANS DON’T HAVE DEMOCRACY!
It takes us a little longer than it would if we were a POLICE STATE, but we will get there.
I know Sir Winston Churchill is a favorite if your to cut and paste (I do love all of your cut and paste jobs, but I would rather know what YOU think, not what everyone else thinks)
“Americans Will Always Do the Right Thing — After Exhausting All the Alternatives”
And besides that Professor Tweed, this thread has never been just about the Yarnell Hill Fire, Wildland Firefighter safety or your in-bred incestuous WF sub culture who think only they know what is good for them. Unfortunately… they can’t see the forest because of all of the trees.
As of right now…you are on the wrong side of history as a ignorant sycophant for your “Siberian Candidate.”
But soon enough, you and those like you are no longer going to be able to plead ignorance.
At that time…we will have to start calling you what you will be…Traitors to our Great Nation and Putin Bitches (non gender specific) instead of just Trump (Putin’s Bitch) Bitches.
The American Wheels of Justice Turn Slowly, but they will eventually grind up whatever is in their path to a very fine powder that can be scooped up and deposited in the dust bin of history.
And just in case anybody is confused with what I think, I have had enough of this Russian Interference in our democracy and their attack on our nation, in addition to the Russian Lackeys and Stooges who are enabling the fuckin’ Russians and their agents of sabotage.
I have decided it is just about time for a Civil War in defense of our Republic! And I will stand on the front line. I am sick and tired of putting up with bullshit from those who are paid to be our civil servants.
“What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure,”
Thomas Jefferson
And I am just about ready to start with mine and thereby finally earn my way into Valhalla without a waiver.
Remember….Una showed me the meaning of, “In your darkest hour, call on me brother and we will fiight the Demons together.”
And as far as you go Professor Tweed, I would suggest you read up on your Thomas Jefferson.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States
“Tick Tock Motherfuckers”
That’s me at about a 2 or 3, you don’t want to see me at a 10!
(Stepbrothers)
Although, please…not too soon, please don’t lock them all up too soon. Please wait until late 2019, my life will become so empty without the daily barrage of Trump stories. I’m addicted…I need them to keep going.
And the fact that thermo nuclear war is always hanginng out there as something he might use to”jump the shark” in case ratings fall, it is all sooooo exciting and just a little bit naughty. Speaking of naughty, there is always Stormy!
I stand firm as my full legal name JOY A. COLLURA (an unreal at times real person 😉 oh my)
here on INVESTIGATIVEmedia
who the site belongs to John Dougherty
not under a private avatar that noone knows a full name or background or history or if they belong to state or blm or a private person or wherever the vested interest lays for the reason one turns their pc on and says I am going to peak at IM today and skim what is being said or not said. I am going to right click and save page as pdf. I am going to get on there and “try” and comment…whatever the case may be…one arrives here
We have well known there is indeed viewership (even made it into YHF books) and not always from the folks who do have the best interest for the fallen and the fire and the loss of homes and lives after YHF
You do understand that right TTWARE?
so for that the data has traveled into a more serious direction
and yet as you see here this site will always get first credit of the news and the breaking news because it was the only place that gave you 24/7 freedom to share and I must state I have not used fulsome flattering and I have been human and I grasp to my heart deeply the chiseled funeral marble that can no longer play with others but yes one day the truth will not be easy to achieve (elusive as you say) to present it for that will be my hardest day to my life;
I don’t know if I will be overwhelmed so much that I cry myself to death of joy…but I do pray always the moment arrives and it is….I can say it is…it already has begun….that was why I quietly tried to tell back channel some to give them heads up…because I know this is hard and sensitive….
I have proven behind the scenes in the appropriate areas that all the data does lay in its appropriate necessary spots and some of the loved ones and so many will later appreciate my decision versus choosing IM as its core unveiling.
Very important people even some that were involved with the original YHF fire on location/investigation is a part of this process and so we had to place this in the proper setting but I do stand firm that in His time the rest will happen
and many and too many know being a Summer born baby—they who know me have known behind the scenes it has taken alot of strength to not blurt out key data
and you know what if I was confident bringing it all here would assure the accountability of actions that weekend then I would of already shared it here and let the world make their own assessment
yet once it was discovered it is already in action and it is already flowing so it is not hidden just not yet all public but it is very much leaked here and there in the greatest most needed spots and we did that to ensure safety of the data in case Tex or my health finally failed…
I will always push for the truth to the light …So much is known about me flaws and all especially on here and I am ok with that
so please share to us a little about yourself.
Do you have a vested interest in the YHF? and if so what is it,
this is a polite reply… not a challenge … said with joy and love…
you must realize that some areas cannot be brought until the proper time.
This learning situation has been tough.
I have been on hikes may it be firefighters or family members where one wants ALL the data and one does not want any
and you know what all I see is one of the loved one’s mom and her heart and how hard each second is to carry on…I had to figure if I shared it on IM then it could be hidden more and very quickly…
I really extend the invite to take the hike with me The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive
and I have met off this site some of the avatars (alot)—some were even shocked I guessed who they were…
I am not a hiking tour guide
but it is well known I have never turned anyone down for a hike no matter where they laid in this…
That has to mean something solid and good
because the staff ride and Chief Ben Palm and all those folks will not give you that same time and energy; they are selective ….right Gary 😉
and I tell you as always have your state land pass ; it is your responsibility and I thank the homeowners who have been so helpful through this process…so these folks could take hikes…without them I could not take them up in some areas…without the homeowners and some of these hike of FFs telling other FFs and gaining more data
PLUS TTWARE you will not find a person who walks from Peeples Valley/Yarnell 5 days a week when not doing fire data stuff/student of fire stuff/Wildland conferences and I do just that and there is proof of that…so I am not obsessed but every second I dedicate to bringing and gathering so the loved ones/homeowners can do whatever they can to carry on best way they can…You have not seen me call out the city or the flaws of the whole situation but in due time it will all be revealed.
when I earlier explain and time stamp actions back channel and I state there is indeed a cess pool effect — there indeed is.
Thank you Sonny for the comment— some have told me to read your comment and I finally did…that was very kind-
I was dealing all day with hospital bs…insurance says I am all good but some technicality on the hospital part…so went from doctors and was told go immediate to hospital to dealing with stuff I really should not have to…I will be away from IM until my 25th wedding anniversary (30 years really; 6 of it I was out pioneering like a good ol’ Mormon would)…
everything bright and beautiful and blessed is sent your way but yeah hike with me some day…we can do it in 1hr and 11 minutes then talk about it after or do the normal artsy fartsy pace 4-5 hours or I have done the most 13.5 hour hike and that included the original lightning strike and the entire walk….your choice—your free will…I am here and sometimes there
I ask you when I say this Melting into each curve
what did you first think of?
Me. I thought of YHF as I am on a motorcycle enjoying each turn… 😉
Everyone takes a sentence’s meaning on differently by the way their life is going…
I can assure you history will not be written in the dark on the YHF
when you sleep tonight may the gold rush sweep those lids and we awake having hope and faith renewed that you have His assurance…the light is coming…be ebullient my father would say…I am ill and not a set diagnosis yet what strain it is but it blows…yet I am exuberant through the storms and there is plenty being presented…but I know that warmth of sunshine is soon enough….
there is some on the YHF who currently are prisoners of their own success,,,may you know relief is coming…the tiding hiding is coming to a close…the breaking news will happen back channel first to JD only and he will have first choice to do with it his free will…that was something well known and said on here long ago…he well deserved to be the first to know by allowing us this freedom place…
For those who mastered and were schooled in the art of manipulation and twists…your times will see light too.
The savoring taste of ultimate control will cease for YOU.
Your handling of fragile strings will be no more…Puppeteer…
yet you played it well….
I am sorry daddy life kept us apart…I am sorry I cannot hold you any longer…lately I have got to experience what it felt like to be in your arm’s daddy yet again and I know the world can hate me for not spilling it all here but I know I would trade anything to have another one of your hugs…and I am blessed because I am getting them now…thank you Lord. I was about empty…and you lifted me up again….I love you daddy….I do.
This was a saying my dad said over and over since I was born…I will close by sharing it…
Sweet are the uses of adversity,
Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life, exempt from public haunt,
Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
Sermons in stones, and good in every thing.
As You Like It Act 2, scene 1, 12–17
TTWARE,
I’ll take you up on your challenge. You posted the following”
“If anything WAS going to happen in that regard, the first thing likely to have been initiated in the furtherance of firefighter safety would certainly entail something; (1) that everyone already agrees is necessary; (2) that has already been proven a success over the long-haul; (3) could be instituted in a single day; and (4) IS VIRTUALLY COST-NEUTRAL!”
“If anything WAS going to happen in that regard, the first thing likely to have been initiated in the furtherance of firefighter safety would certainly entail …”
The SAIT-SAIR recommended that they muster a panel of experts to study Human Factors. “The Team recommends that the State of Arizona request the NWCG and/or Wildland Fire Leadership Council (WFLC) to charter a team of interagency wildland fire and human factors experts to conduct further analysis of this event.” (SAIR Page 44, Recommendation 5.)
This never happened. They did organize a YHF Staff Ride based on the NON-“Factual & Management Report” beginning on page 11.
And it is blatantly obvious that the SAIR never had a stand alone ‘Human Factors” (HF) section even though they had a specifically designated HF expert, Brad Mayhew.
Dr. Putnam admits as I do that ALL WF Fatality Investigations and Reports are lies and cover-ups and whitewashes. The the respective Agencies base these Staff Rides on these NON-Factual Investigation Reports, so they are deceptively spreading lies under the pretense of being “Factual.”
As far as the creation of something: “(1) that everyone already agrees is necessary; (2) that has already been proven a success over the long-haul; (3) could be instituted in a single day; and (4) IS VIRTUALLY COST-NEUTRAL!”
Clearly not everyone is going to agree on anything, however, the vast majority of WFs agree on the long established tried-and-true WF Rules, including the ten Standard FF Orders, the 18 Situtations That Shout Watch Out 10 and 18, LCES, and the few others enumerated in the IRPG and elsewhere.
Since they were established many, many years ago, they have ANNUALLY been responsible for saving tens of thousands of WF lives.
All the other recommendations about devices and such are merely emotional feel good stuff that MAY help save some lives.
The YHF and GMHS investigation continues …
RTS said:
“I’ll take you up on the challenge. ….”
I’m not sure what challenge you’re referring to
.
Then as you try and make the case of your “challenge”, you reference the SAIT/SAIR recommendation to investigate the human factor aspect of the YHF, followed by the info that the recommendation was totally blown-off and abandoned, which was exactly my point in the first place, that nothing had been done in the past five years in the furtherance of WFF safety as a result of the YHF. Zero, Zip, Nada
.
While the Mayday recommendation may not be your preferred option to be the first item to move forward with, my overall point was that it would be the absolute easiest to implement for all the reasons mentioned in my post above, especially when considering the god-awful snails-pace at which the US Government institutes any kind of change.
“Mayday” is something that has already saved thousands of lives over the years AND WILL CONTINUE TO SAVE thousands of lives well into the future, as well. Why shouldn’t WFF tap into THAT free resource?!? After all, we are primarily all about saving lives here, aren’t we? Why not go after the really low hanging fruit first?
As far as Human Factors go, I think you and I are in complete agreement as to the importance of this sort of research to save firefighter lives in the future. I think human factors played a HUGE roll at Yarnell Hill, because those factors impact the thinking process, and the more factors there are at play, the more the thinking process will be impacted. A boatload of those factors regarding YH have been identified here on IM over the past few years.
Another thing about YH and human factors, I believe that the level of YH organizational dysfunction, in and of itself, also should be considered a human factor, which significantly impacted decision making on 6/30/13.
Bottom line, I believe Human Factors are a primary reason that WFF improperly mitigate ‘in their own minds’ the wildland safety rules and standards. That sort of mitigation will only cause more WFF deaths in the future. The government’s (U.S. or State, or whatever) avoidance of investigating those factors only makes them complicit in future deaths.
The only real solution to this problem would be the creation of an independent investigative agency such as the NTSB to investigate these fatalities. But, the powers that be who could implement such things are the same one’s covering-up the truth in the first place, so THAT ain’t gonna happen.
RTS,
I should have also noted in my original comment that I hope you prevail in your lawsuit. That certainly would have the potential to reveal some new and important information. However, after watching the legal debacles of the survivors, and the Yarnell residents, I have my doubts about how any of the Courts in Arizona would rule in the furtherance of any additional effort to get at the truth.
Ombudsman has been very helpful to me on FOIAS and public records over the years.
Have you ever used them RTS? or just lawyers? To this date, young Danee Garone of Ombudsman has always been swift…kind…proactive…an advocate…investigates…addresses my concerns…and fixes violation of rights pretty quickly….he always laid impartial…he always has done it free…thank you to the Swedens 200 years ago…tack så mycket. It means, literally, “thanks so much.” I have appreciated it through my learning curves in this journey…
Aren’t Ombudsman tied to the state or are they separate?
TTWARE,
We are much more aligned than you think. i made a commitment in June 2013 that I would continue to pursue the truth on the YH Fire and our FOIA/PA requests and lawsuit are part of that journey.
Unfortunately and as expected, the Federal Govt. is given HUGE leeway by the Courts. Here is a DOJ link summarizing the 2008 cases in the matter, with some references to other fatal USFS fatal fires, i.e. Cramer Fire
https://www.justice.gov/oip/blog/foia-post-2008-summaries-new-decisions-may-2008
The Federal Courts give the Federal Agencies a HUGE “presumption of good faith” in these cases. And we all know that the Federal Govt., for the most part, does NOT act in good faith in matters about them (FOIA) and about others (Privacy Act). I am filing under both.
As you well know, the the YH Fire was an AZ STATE wildfire with Federal Agency employees and AIRCRAFT in the form of Lead Planes, Air Attack, Airtankers, and Helicopters. I seek the Air-to_Ground records and transcripts that do in fact exist, while the Govt. insists they are already public record in their selectively released records in a few Dropbox accounts. Smoke and mirrors behind the curtain!
The lies, betrayals, Orwellian Doublespeak, Red Herring and Straw Man logical fallacies , and much more abound in their machinations in their legal maneuvering. And they have the Federal Treasury at their disposal whereas we FOIA/PA requesters have limited funds – and they count on that.
The Bible is very clear that we are “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” in 1 Thessalonians 5:21.
We are still in the Summary Judgement phase and awaiting the Govt. to provide us the records we requested AND those the District Court Judge had instructed them to provide in his ruling. Either way, our lawsuit will proceed to the Court of Appeals and beyond.
The Bible also tells us: “… .let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.” That’s our plan
Joy, the Ombudsman is only for AZ State Records Request, not FOIAs or PA Request.
Well I see I logged on to leave one cute pic of Trump playing army men for you Gary and then went to log off and thought do I engage in the rest of yours and Charlie’s interesting stuff…nah…I have to be at doctors in a little bit so need sleep to awake and see what crazy new diagnose or antibiotic is next….
I am fighting it as I fever it out…been 100.5 to 102.7 the past few days…its the spitting up blood pics my family are tired of receiving when they ask “how are you doing?”
Has WA run out of ideas already???
more distractions….oh my.
how are we to understand this malaise glazing all over our politics, Gary????
—-
who are the heroes and villains in all this…
where is Batman?
Where’s Robin?
(wink—cat woman…you out there?)
If Politics and Hollywood cannot be straightforward than come to IM where you can say just about anything…
either way Gary’s intent is to stimulate….
????
or was it a late night distraction…
but in the quest for much predictability….
isn’t it time for another GI JOE movie or where’s the Dude that Gary so adores….He is probably out playing with Duane in some band nowadays….on Whiskey Row.
What I think of the current folks (MOST not all) who run for any political office that it is just a vehicle for their whatever ambitions…I am glad I lay in the nobody category to life and the only ambition I have is to live 100 miles from nowhere with a good man at my side (is it nomrom style) on a wrapped around porch enjoying the wild life….and gaining more fire data and truths and I really do not care who gets the credit rolling on that screen…Yet I do care that Dustin who wrote this below in bold gets his time to see what God’s plans were that Willis told the world about on that video—there were a few I care about that I tried to reach them before the news trickles out but they ignored me due to high school silliness…but hey I did try….in the end they know it…lovely words that should be shared in hopes you accept Jesus tonight…According to conspiracy theorists, codes in the Bible suggest the end of the world is imminent, with Earth set to be destroyed in less than 1 week; April 23. knock knock….der…come on people….“We won’t know the day or the hour—so we should be prepared at all times!”…”get right or get left”….and now is a good time not on Shirley Temple’s bday. (hama sun autois)…Gary, how are we all to love one another when some act like a friend to you but say yucky stuff behind your back? Just pray for them? Or call them out in the name of love? 😉
from GMHS Dustin DeFord:
When I Didn’t Blink
Thursday, January 5, 2012
Arizona is not Montana
It has been a while since I last wrote here on my blog. As I look back at what I have written in the past, I see and am reminded of my plans to move to western Montana. Well, here I am in Arizona. Life will take turns that are not expected. I still want to move to Western Montana but for whatever reason God has moved me to HOT Arizona instead. I am currently looking for work with applications sent into a couple different places. One job that I came down for keeps putting off the date they need me so I wonder if that is what I will even end up doing down here. I have been chasing wildland fire jobs now for a few years, and now I have been wondering why I am doing it. Is it because that is what I want to do or is it something God is using to prepare me for later in life? Am I chasing a vain life dream? “For who knows what is good for man in life, all the days of his vain life which he passes like a shadow? Who can tell a man what will happen to him under the sun?” Ecc. 6:12.
Having been here in Arizona now for a few days I have been introduced to several of the people from the Church here as well as seen some of the ministries that they are involved in. One of my desires is to get involved with the people and ministries, but then I have to ask myself why do I want to be involved? Is it to show others that I am Godly because I work with the youth? But being concerned about my wrong attitude and avoiding the ministries is equally as dangerous. “Do not be overly righteous, nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself? Do not be overly wicked, or foolish: why should you die before your time? It is good that you grasp this and remove your hand from the other; For he who fears God will escape them all.” Ecc. 7:16-18. I keep in my prayers that my desire to minister to others is a desire to serve God by giving myself and time for the spiritual benefit of others, not the desire to show others how righteous I am for serving God (this in reality is serving self rather than God).
What is God’s direction in my life? People ask me “do you feel called to the ministry?” I always give the answer, “Ultimately yes, but I feel that as one communicating the Word of God to another I would better relate intellectually having been living in the day to day life like every one else rather than jumping into ‘full-time ministry’ right out of school.” But as I sit back and think about the answer I give, I wonder if this is really God’s leading or if it is just my ‘ideal’ idea. I believe God wants me in ‘full-time’ ministry, but am I going at it His way or mine? Am I following the “ideal” ministry method or am I following what God has for me here and now? As I think in these things my prayer is that my heart is truly set on God’s direction, not my ideal. I think Solomon concluded well in Ecclesiastes, “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil.” Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.
37.6% and dropping…always remember….6.30.13 that is what he wrote on the board…
just appx. 25…so much energy and so much fun I heard from so many…as well Andrew Williams who was on the YHF prison crew said Dustin’s ministering to him changed his life on a prior fire and I want people to remember Dustin…not the stuff of who did what and why….I want to remember when Paul got to see Dustin become this Godly good man with such a God heart; you felt it being around him…where I myself have heard all the good he did. From a grunt laborer to a timid kid from a family of 10 kids and was not known to take risks…made truss boards…even had his hand mending fences and running a tractor and running cattle…did he ever think signing that waiver of liability to be on the first city hotshot team or like so many even some that were already public thought they had PSRS but were able to use ARS stats to get the needs met even though it says it point blank in the waiver of liability your rights…yet the city had its faults but they were not fully to blame…
January 5th 2012 he writes that above…as the very place that kept putting him off on a hire date So Woodsman OUT…please stay…for these men deserve active and current as well as retired to be here and make this stand and I promise you Woodsman OUT there are readers currently in the system reading here but they just don’t yet have the voice or know how to say it…have faith good ol’ buddy you…we all have our storms to life….just do not let them swamp ya down…Have a beautiful week…k 😉
We can experience God’s powerful presence even in the storms of our lives. (odb . org)
FYI…I hope I get the chance to vote for Nikki Haley in 2020. Ambassador Haley has been doing her best to slap the bitch out of those fuckin’ red commie bastards, you know…the same people Republicans used to stand up against until Traitor Trump fell in love with Putin and Russian Oligarch Dirty Money.
So…cmon, what is wrong with President Mike Pence? I support that idea. President Pence will appoint ultra right wing Supremr Court Justices and he hates gays, he will sign laws that discriminate against them for you.
Although….truthfully, I am pretty suspicious of him, I think he is a closet gay? Surely you have noticed the dreamy doe eyed way he stares at the back of Trumps head every time Trump talks and at his lips that make that little round hole in his face? I really do think Pence is in love with Trump, but still…at least the fuckin’ Russians don’t own him.
So…what say you? Let’s all get behind President Pence!
Oh…and one more thing. I have written on this thread that I used to have a lot of nicknames during my 22 years as a federal law enforcement officer and special agent.
One of the most common was, Gary “Let’s Get a Search Warrant” Olson. I really, really, really, know a lot about getting federal search warrants. I know how specific, how detailed, and how well sourced they have to be. And that is because that was my solution to every problem. Just like when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
You can write local and state search warrants on a bar napkin and drop by the judges house or favorite bar to get it signed. Not so with federal warrants.
The United States Attorneys Office takes Constitutional issues very, very, very, seriously, just like they take EVERYTHING very seriously. And then once you meet their standard and get their initials on it, then comes the hard part. Asking a federal judge to read it…every word of it, and then cross examine you on every word of it and get him or her to sign it. You will never do anything harder than that as a federal agent.
I can’t even imagine what it would take to get search warrants for an attorney’s house, office, hotel room and safety deposit box? That would have been so far out of my level of expertise…I can’t even imagine it.
Now…it’s not supposed to effect it, but we all know only to well it does, getting those same search warrants for the attorney (alleged) for the President Of the United States Of America?
I don’t have enough adjectives to describe that accomplishment. So…what is the bottom line? Michael Cohen and everybody else who has ever done business with him that violates any law in any way….are FUCKED! And I mean…they are really FUCKED!
If I were in their place, I would curl up into the fetal position and wait for them to put papers in front of me and then I would sign them. And then beg for mercy. That would be your only hope. What I mean to say…is that they are really, really, really FUCKED!
Oh…and everyone says the U.S. Attorneys Office For the Southern District Of New York is the very best, of the very best. And I believe it, anybody they set their sights on….are FUCKED!
Gary says:
“Oh…and everyone says the U.S. Attorneys Office For the Southern District Of New York is the very best, of the very best.”
Gary, you left the best part out The U.S. Attorney For the Southern District Of New York is a Republican who was appointed by Trump.
Right on, and it never makes a difference with U.S. Attorneys Offices anyway, especially where the work is done at the line prosecutors and the agents level, there is only one word to describe them, PROFESSIONAL.
And I spent most of my time working on task forces all across the country, so I was in a lot of different USA offices, and they were all the same, all professional, all of the time, no exceptions, ever,
And I misspoke, there would be no reason for me to beg for mercy after I had done the right thing and cooperated.
The system is so standardized, so regulated and so by the manual, I would receive more justice and fairness than I probably deserved. And so there is no reason to beg because doing so won’t make it any better and not doing so won’t make it any worse. The only thing that makes any difference is your, “Cooperation.”
So…don’t ever committ any crimes with me as a co conspirator, because I am telling you right now, I will flip like a monkey on a stick so fast it will make your head spin.
That is why I know Cohen is going to flip, he isn’t hard core Cosa Nostra, nor is will he be protecting a loved one, and he has young children, he doesn’t have any choice.
Manafort isn’t flipping because he is in up to his neck with some really, really, really bad people and he knows what they will do to him and probably his family if he flips, so he is really screwed either way.
The best place for him will be federal prison in protective custody 24/7 unless he can get a Presidential Pardon, which I think is a real possibility and so does he.
I will say one thing though. The end result would have been the same no matter what in New York…but I am pretty sure there was a lot more joy in the hearts of the prosecutors and agents who were responsible for the amazing work done to execute those warrants on Trump’s lawyer.
Trump has been poking a stick in the eye of that really big bad ass very hungry unchained Bengal Tiger for a long time now with impunity. And if I were him…I would STOP.
This country and its institutions survived the Civil War, the Great Depression, WWII, the Korean War, the Bitter War in Vietnam just to name a few…and it is going to still going to be here after Trump and his supporters are in the trashbin of history, right next to Joe McCarthy and his people.
Not the Trump voters, because most of them are my people, but men like Sean Hannity and Newt Gingrich and those who are trying to profit from destroying this Great Nation.
God Bless America!
And I think my street creds for railing against the government are well established on this thread and nothing makes me happier than when I can give up those in power who did wrong.
If I had ANYTHING bad to report to you about either federal law enforcement or prosecutors…I would enjoy telling you all about it…but I don’t.
My problem with working for the government came because I was raised in a relatively small, very conservative, and religious environment as a Boy Scout.
I was taught for my whole life there was good and bad in night or day and everything was either black or white. Nothing in that upbringing prepared me to work in a world of grey shawdows at the higher levels of the BLM. And once again, I wasn’t a high level employee, I was just there as staff to serve the high level corrupt mother*******.!
And of course I can now clearly see the same behavior from civil servants like Mike Dudley in the USFS. I just never had access to that level when I was with the USFS so I never saw it or was really exposed to it. BUT…I know it when I see it!
Oh…and one more thing. I did finally manage to tie it all back to the Yarnell Hill Fire, so…
Oh…and one more thing. The reason I thought search warrants were the answer to every problem…is because search warrants were certainly the answer to ALMOST all problems.
I’m pretty sure to go where they went with the Cohen search warrants, they left there with several 1000 piece jigsaw puzzles. And even without the box tops, I think they will put those puzzles together pretty quickly.
And even IF a few pieces of each puzzle are missing, there will be more than enough to prove to a jury beyond a resonable doubt, what each puzzle represents. (I think that was a GREAT anology, one of my better ones).
So like I said, I think Cohen and anyone who has done dirty deeds with him are FUCKED! And so far, Mr. Hannity has dogged the bullet because he is worth so much money to Fox, but this isnt over…yet. The indictments haven’t been announced…yet.
I’m telling for a fact…what those agents and prosecutors did was some AMAZING work. I am in absolute AWE. And we all know just how good I think I was, or am, or maybe could be again….on a great day with the wind behind my back….maybe?
Like the answer to 99 out of every 100 problems. To have what they had to go where they went and take what they did…I would put the odds somewhere about, oh never mind…I can’t write a number that big.
I hate to be so hopeful (because not only do I see most glasses as being half empty rather than half full, I’m pretty sure somebody pissed in that glass to fuck with me) and the only reason I mentioned it in the first place (you have to admit, I haven’t commented on that much) I think this is the beginning of the end of our national nightmare?
Okay, I’m serious this time. I only have two more words to add.
Money + Laundering =
Money Laundering
Trump is a TERRIBLE businessman and he has a terrible track record of bankruptcies, borrowing money he never intended to pay back and not paying those who provided materials, supplies work, and services for him.
He has t been able to borrow money from and reputable source since the late 1990’s. The only reason he can still pretend to be a business man is because he has been laundering money for Russian Oligarchs and criminal organizations since at least that time period.
And Michael Cohen has been his point of contact. That whole effing crime family by the name of Trump and his entire criminal enterprise is going down, really, really, really hard.
They have committed dozens of other serious crimes as well, but I’m betting the really bid one is money laundering and I have believed that since he started running for office and nobody could rationally explain where he got his financing from fir multiple money losing real estate ventures that are really nothing more than black holes for money stolen from the Russian people…many of whom are my kinfolk.
Of course I do realize I am imitating Captain Obvious here…I’m pretty sure everybody knows at least as much as I do unless they are highly politicized partisans who are more loyal to the Trumpublican Party than they are to the United States Of America!
And those shitbags like Congressman Jordan, Meadows and Nunez can’t stop the entire United States Attorneys Office For The Southern District of New York…the effing A Team!
I read somewhere that the late evauation of Yarnell may have had a lot to do with the loss of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
I’m wondering if GMHS were waiting in the black to see if anyone else was going to step up to this challenge and when no one else did they moved because they wanted to prevent loss of life in Yarnell. By then, there wasnt enough time to complete the move safely.
Apparently Eric Marsh gave the final command to move to Yarnell in spite of the danger.
Greetings and Salutations
to all the good people on investigative media.
It is your persistence and comments that have added to the wealth of knowledge needed to help the young firefighter avoid injury and early death.
I was especially attracted to Joy’s recent comments.
You’re one in a billion, a real Jewel and a rare quality seldom found.
I would never find a woman your equal.
Very good and very interesting, great comments.
She did a good job of summarizing some of the things she experienced in California at the firefighter convention.
She pays attention to details like no other.
When she mentioned logging being the most dangerous labor job out there, statistics do say that.
However, firefighting and mining run a very close second.
Being a cowboy can get dangerous at times as well,
Maybe on the Range as well as some of the cowboy bars I had frequent encounter with in the past.
I have tried all the occupations mentioned except firefighting, but you could put it right up there on the top for sure.
The dangers there are related to the bosses that hand out the orders.
Marsh and Steed handed out death orders, both must have known it, and yet I believe someone above them handed out the order from the picking sequence.
The great thing about Mining and logging is that you are your own boss to the highest degree.
In logging the trees are marked and you go along falling the designated trees generally without seeing anyone except in the morning and the afternoon when you’re going home.
If you get hurt or killed it’s on you, you should have known not to cut a leaner or snag, or if you did get hurt from a falling branch, you could say as some of the bosses wanted to say,
well God meant it that way or you wouldn’t be dead or hurt.
They wouldn’t be far off on that account, but if you cut a snag loose, we know that God didn’t give you enough brains to avoid doing that dangerous action.
It’s hard as hell to blame God for your foolish actions, the same as it would be hard as hell to blame God for Marsh & Steve’s actions and whatever other boss was involved causing the killing their men.
No, God didn’t screw up there, God and the Irish gods are Vindicated but those bosses are not.
More have passed away at Yarnell. Strangely you did not hear anything about the dangers of the chemical slop these Forest Service people and wildland firefighter bosses enjoy dumping on people’s residences and the environment as well.
Little is said of the dangers and how many have died because Yarnell was surrounded with hundreds of thousands of gallons of that Hideous solution that has been killing people like flies soaked with fly spray.
Hey I think the death toll is already too many Souls, not to mention that three-quarters of the population is sick with one ailment or another and I believe directly because of that slop dumped all around the city and even on top of residences.
If ever there was an experiment to prove the deadliness of that orange retardant, Yarnell screams the evidence.
Certainly if you want to keep your reputation among the cookie cutter wildland firefighter types, then avoid Joy Collura.
She only goes after truth and if you can’t handle the truth, then stay in your rut.
Use cover up and lies and make Heroes out of people that have killed their crew because of their propensity to be Risk Takers.
And that when it was entirely unnecessary and unreasonable to do so.
Strong words on my part and those many firefighters that agree and say so, yet it is only the truth that will save more lives and bring people inline to doing the right thing, not foolish actions.
Well we mentioned the dangers of Wildland firefighting, logging, mining, and even Cowboys. Cowboys do get shot through the gizzard now and again, and I actually saw that on one Ranch I worked on as a youngster.
but the one thing we didn’t mention was McDonald’s I think the fast-food industry kills about as many people as logging, maybe more. I had 6 heart attacks in the past couple years, Joy says 7 I think is probably more correct since they didn’t count the what I had at Helena Montana as a heart attack.
One attack did kill me, but modern science brought me back or maybe the Irish gods I should say guided their hands and knowledge well enough.
I believe those attacks were called because I preferred quick food to doing my own cooking.
Now about the only thing I partake of at McDonald’s is the coffee. so if you want to live longer stay the hell away from that fast food.
It’s a well known fact, if you drink good Irish Guinness beer, you live 7 years longer than usual. It’s got enough vitamin it in it to keep you going.. Well you can find that in good black German beer as well. So keep up the good work, keep our young firefighters alive by advising him of the truth.
I’m taking a break right now.
WOW…OMG…NEWS FLASH!
FYI…And depending on your perspective of our collective reality (since I am sitting here watching TV…surprise) either our shared political universe, which directly impacts all of us just burst asunder, or it has just been one more day in the Trump Presidency.
I can’t tell which one since my perspective of these things is more than a little off plumb and level due to the constant barrage of dramatic events often on a daily and sometimes hourly basis in my daily soap opera I call, “As The Trump Presidency Turns.”
But…Michael Cohen just revealed in court to a direct question by the judge, his only “clients” are, that disgraced Republican fund raiser and dirty billionaire, POTUS and….wait for it…the primary mouthpiece and defender of the whole stinkin’ pile of garbage…Sean Hannity. Talk about a conflict of interest. If that shit bag (and it is hard to keep the shit bags separate in this case, but I am specifically referring to Hannity) survives this, even I am going to be surprised. 😳
BTW…the primary data points that connected the other three men was the fact that one of them was a “fixer” for the other two, which included secret payments to cover up and conceal sexual misconduct and other tawdry escapades.
So, the only questions now are….what was Sean Hannity’s connection to Michael Cohen and how will Fox News, otherwise known as Trump TV or State Television advertisers react to this revelation…stay tuned! The spectators in the courtroom gasped…and their jaws dropped as many were barely able to conceal laughter when Cohen’s attorney was finally forced to say the name “Sean Hannity” outloud.
And Stormy was particularly eloquent during her short news conference today after the federal court’s ruling. I love strong women…especially if I can get them to spank me in my undies like Stormy did for POTUS!
Oh…and the reason I was concerned the other day about Midwest Trump voters pertaining to the pending Chinese Trade War, is because the Olson side of my family are either Nebraska farmers or work in related fields (no pun intended). The Chinese people can go s lot longer without eating soy bean products…than my family can go without eating anything. So…bad idea…SAD! Imagine that…Olson’s are midwestern farmers? Go figure.
Oh…and one more thing. I would post a link to some of Stormy’s artistic work in the video industry, but that is a bridge to far for even me. Look it up for yourself!
Historical footnote;
We all use “A Bridge Too Far” in everyday communication without ever thinking about the historical context of that phrase. A Bridge Too Far gives an account of Operation Market Garden, a failed Allied attempt to break through German lines at Arnhem in the occupied Netherlands during World War II. The title of the book comes from a comment made by British Lieutenant General Frederick Browning, deputy commander of the First Allied Airborne Army, who told Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery before the operation, “I think we may be going a bridge too far.” (Wikipedia).
Some really fucked up General by the name of Montgomery made the decision to willingly drop 35,000 soldiers 60 miles behind enemy lines, in the hopes that they would be relieved before being destroyed. Which didn’t happen, most of them were either killed or captured.
Now…some of my detractors might say I am posting fluff or c
Whoops,
“chaff today that has nothing whatsoever to do with our common interest, the Yarnell Hill Fire. But, am I…really?
Technically…I think Montgomery was a Field Marshall which I guess means he was some kind of Uber General. I also think I remember about 20,000 paratroopers were dropped on top of 2 Panzer Divisions made up of Tiger Tanks because some dumbass disobeyed orders and left the briefing with a copy of the plan that was later obtained by the Germans after he was captured. Most of those 20,000 men were shot while helplessly drifting back down to earth.
“My grandfather received a medal in WWII for single handedly killing more than 20 enemy soldiers. And then he was captured and spent the rest of the war in an allied prison camp.” (Dwight Schrute in “The Office),
While I was in New Mexico, Holloman AFB was well known for training Luftwaffe pilots. Okay…you got me on that one. I’m not sure what that has to do with the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Have you noticed that most of our frustration from participating in this thread comes from proving we aren’t robots…to a robot?
Saaaaay…that reminds me of an old joke, that might be the funniest joke I have ever heard. And I heard it on the radio during one of my hour long morning commutes to the bowels of Mordor in the Valley Of the Sun, so you know it’s even kinda clean…sort of.
“Nels Anderson was a expatriate Dane who escaped from German occupied Denmark and spent the rest of WWII flying Spitfires with the British Royal Air Force.
One day, Nels was asked to speak to an assembly of school children about his time fighting with the RAF.
So….Nels was telling the children about one day he was flying down the English Channel with some of his mates when suddenly several Fockers dropped out of the clouds and engaged them in a fierce battle without any warning.
And just as suddenly another group of Fockers attacked them from the right, while another group of Fockers hit them from the left.
At this point the school principle interrupted Nels by saying, “I believe it would be helpful to explain to the children that Fokkers were a type of airplane flown by German Luftwaffe pilots in the early years of WWII.
Ya, ya…that’s true said Nels, but these Fockers were flying Messerschmitts!”
Your welcome!
And my afternoon commutes during that 8 years that seemed like 80, were about one hour and thirty minutes. So…now you know one reason why my 12 year old granddaughter says she thinks I might be the laziest man in the world. I’m burned out.
Although I’m pretty sure she hasn’t seen that many lazy men in her short life on a world wide basis, so her opinion isn’t really “very fair and balanced” just like Fox News? So…I don’t think anyone should judge me by what she thinks?
Nevertheless…I will concede that even I think I am definitely in the runnin’ to be the laziest man in the world. So…
And I deeply regret that you will never be able to “unsee” the image of me in your minds eye, being spanked by a strong woman in my undies…just as you can’t unring a bell.
And now you know my pain and anguish at seeing in my minds eye an image that is seared into my memory and will be with me forever from seeing our POTUS crawling around on the floor like a bad doggy being spanked with a rolled up magazine by Stormy Daniels.
I mean…you can’t make this shit up! Am I right? WTF…Over?
Oh…and one more thing. Michael Cohen is going to fold like a cheap lawchair and roll over on POTUS like a big dog, unless he gets whacked by the Russian/Ukrainian Mob first, even though his father in law is in the Russian/Ukrainian Mob.
There is no way he is going to spend 30 years in a federal penitentiary for POTUS, who has never been loyal to anyone in his life except for that rat faced bastard Putin, which is why POTUS is Putin’s LIL Bitch.
Historical Footnote;
In general, and I do mean “in general”, during the Great Viking Age, when the Norse weren’t farming during the off season, they would go “Viking” or raiding.
The Norwegians went to Greenland, Iceland and North America. The Danes went south to England and France etc., which is why Normandy in France is called Normandy, or land of the Norse.
The Swedes, my people, primarily raided to the east up the Dnieper and the Volga rivers between the Baltic, Black and Caspian Seas. And that is why they call Russia…Russia. The name is derived from the word “Rus”; which meant, “those who row”, which referred to the Swedish Vikings.
So…I don’t hate, or even dislike Russians in general. In fact, I feel a familial kinship to the Russian people. I just understand that the Russia Federation is our global adversaries and represent an existential threat to the United States and our allies.
So…what the FUCK is wrong with POTUS? Here is a one word hint in Russian…”Kompromat.” Trump enablers and supporters really should learn what that word means, it’s important.
I mean…even if Obama was born in Kenya, Kenya isn’t a global existential threat to our Republic, just ask Romney who identified Russia as such during a Presidential Debate with Obama. So…
https://goo.gl/images/vpBslj
https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+news+flash+humor&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CW6Akv505Ly6IjjNh_1R1ldb3pRhnuHYUbDnOWWVpcuNWi7TU48HXuJ6_1Qz6Iy-SZlJSWUwEz2aMlavK7DcGNjEJHpSoSCc2H9HWV1velEZu4knDDFFekKhIJGGe4dhRsOc4RxeegJ2WH3NgqEglZZWly41aLtBEBTBB3jIg-qioSCdTjwde4nr9DEcUlruEzQqlsKhIJPojL5JmUlJYRNf_1AQfSOIbIqEglTATPZoyVq8hG5riNBqbab5SoSCbsNwY2MQkelEccuafB5aIUG&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjm7bOr3cDaAhVRbKwKHd-MApoQ9C96BAgAEBs&biw=1536&bih=760&dpr=1.25#imgrc=PojL5JmUlJb5bM:
OMG…that is toooooo funny!
Moving this over from Chapter XXV
WantsToKnowTheTruth says March 31, 2018 at 10:53 pm
On March 29, 2018 at 10:19 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
>> Good stuff Gary,
>>
>> Here is a link for Leadership and Biographical information on Dr. Putnam.
>>
>> https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/leaders_meet/interviews/leaders_TedPutnam.html
>>
>> I will follow up at another time with his article titled:
>> “Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth.”
>>
>> This amazing paper is published in the Proceedings of 11th International
>> Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 4-8, 2011, Missoula, Montana, USA;
>> Published by the International Association of Wildland Fire,
>> Missoula, Montana, USA
Here is a link to where that ( full ) paper by Dr. Ted Putnam can be downloaded…
Eleventh International Wildland Fire Safety Summit
April 4-8, 2011 Hilton Garden Inn Missoula, MT
Promoting the Story of Wildland Fire Safety.
Presentation Title: Accidents, Accident Guides, Stories and the Truth
Presented By: Dr. Ted Putnam, Mindful Solutions
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=05262454341263280395
Curiously and yet not surprisingly, the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (WFLLC) has REFUSED to both acknowledge receipt of Dr. Putnam’s paper and emails at least a dozen times and twice with me emailing his published 2011 IAWF paper and the link to the four key components of the WF LLC, (i.e. Center Mgr. Britt Rosso, Analyst Travis Dotson, Asst. Director Alex Viktora, and Writer/Editor Paul Keller.
NO RESPONSES and NO REPLIES to either Dr. Putnm’s numerous emails nor to my two emails regarding posting Dr. Putnam’s published paper on their WFLLC website.
The WFLLC Mission Statement: “Our Mission is to promote learning in the wildland fire service by providing useful and relevant products that help to reveal the complexity and risk in the wildland fire environment.”
Clearly, Dr. Putnam’s published paper dealing with wildland fire management’s mishandling of Serious Accident Investigations and Reports and the lies and cover-ups and whitewashes align squarely within the realm defined in their Mission Statement.
Indeed, a published paper in the highly esteemed wildland fire association, the IAWF (International Association of Wildland Fire) should by all rights be published in the WFLLC website. Their Mission Statement requires it: “… promote learning in the wildland fire service by providing useful and relevant products that help to reveal the complexity and risk in the wildland fire environment.”
The disclaimer guarantees they can publish whatever they want: “Disclaimer: Information is provided with the intent to share knowledge to improve safety, performance, efficiency and organizational learning throughout the entire wildland fire community. No warranty or guarantee is implied because much of the data provided is beyond the control of the center.”
While at the Wildland Fire safety Summit in Shelter Island, CA in April, I attempted to get my questions regarding their reluctance to post or respond in a group setting for Mr. Rosso’s half-hour session explaining the WFLLC. He saw me with my hand raised numerous times during this time yet never called upon me.
I chose the more public setting because I wanted everyone in the WF Safety Summit group to hear their reasoning or whatever excuse(s) they felt justified their not complying with their Mission Statement.
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/2018-california-interagency-wildland-fire-risk-management-conference-tickets-41465605743
Copy and paste the 2018 Agenda link below into the URL slot to access:
http://caloes.ca.gov/FireRescueSite/Documents/2018_SOF_Final_Agenda.pdf
Moreover, Mr. Rosso will privately acknowledge that it was my 70-80 Wildland Fire Fatalities, Burnovers, Fire Shelter Deployments, Investigations, and the like from my personal FOIA and/or various State Records Requests given to the original WFLLC Center Manager Paula Nasiatka in 2002. He has never acknowledged this publicly in a group setting nor on their WFLLC website.
Please take the time to contact these WF LLC members by phone and/or email and ask them to post Dr. Putnam’s paper and if not, WHY they will not post Dr. Putnam’s paper on their website.
Britt Rosso (520) 799-8760
Alex Viktora (520) 799-8748
Travis Dotson (520) 799-8763
Paul Keller (520) 799-4861
Per the WFLLC website: “… in 2002 the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center was created. Today, the LLC operates as a national, interagency, federally-funded organization with interagency staffing. The LLC’s primary goal continues to be striving to improve safe work performance and organizational learning for all wildland firefighters.”
I allege that these are your Federal Tax Dollars being misused by those that somehow feel they are above the law and will not even comply with their own Mission Statement …
Randy Skeleton and Brian Tarr
CORRECTIONS:
Randy Skelton and Bria Tai
My question this week as I left that conference week
DOES TRUTH MATTER?
TRUTH
Deeper one engages it than reveals deeper and deeper truths but does it even matter…
Let me say a few things about the value of truth to get today’s conversation started.
Truth is absolute
and can be objective
Personal perception of truth is subjective.
I like the diversity of folks here and thank you for staying
if you write or JUST READ
We have no GO ALONG GET ALONG folks here
I DO appreciate that alot.
I normally spend my off time with retired sheriffs and law enforcement and so I would of never thought a decade ago firefighters would of made it to my personal time as well. Tex told me years ago that I will get to the bottom of this and I did and once I was to the bottom I saw the cess pool effect and had to figure best way to present the data then Gary played an indirect role and the rest is history that one day be out in the light.
To WOODSMAN OUT (plus BIA John Mosely was interested in having a copy of my chicken scratch notes “as is” so skim or scroll if it makes no sense…I wrote key words mainly since the video is due out…)
If you are not an online person or you lead a busy life or never heard of IM and someone led you this way and you start to read and are like ????— it really is hard to follow and so I have heard time and time again that if we had made this site like Sitta tried to do with the boot camp situation back channel this would be a very successful page.
One link leads to the GMHS complete history and topics,
next link to Friday’s fire then next link to Saturday’s Fire than next to Sunday’s and etc.,
another link on what is a HOT SHOT vs structural or hybrid or smokejumper are,
another link on what is Interagency? One link on all historical SAIRs, and the list goes on…
We could even have links to each well known FIRE GOD so if we want to talk or vent or discuss one we can go direct to that link…I strongly think Air to Ground should have its own link for there “lack of” less is best mentality shown to our foias.
Woodsman, YOU are one of the highest integrity men I have known on and off IM and I am proud you participate even if it sounds redundant and that rage train you were on…had you not had that…would you have ever written on IM? So I am one who believes in the rage train because without all the variety of emotions we need to humbly and use vulnerability to process and access it out (tee it up)— we would not be here today and we are in a sense a select few/unit…who behind the scenes we all have gained so much knowledge and data yet we all know TOO MANY lay on the readership side only and some have posted on here but John Dougherty has not yet reviewed it or it has not yet been posted but alot have said they tried to post so there also may be a glitch here.
and Woodsman, when I write on here that the data I have cannot yet be on IM because I am tied/deposed/etc. for someone’s future legal situation since 2015 who is going to use my Yarnell Hill Fire testimony/photos/evidence/documents/information/data/videos for the documented truths only to show the staff ride and the SAIR and all the stuff the media fed out was what Steve Holdsambeck stated is the current way they investigate fires.
Steve said the tools they use—assurance of no punitive actions, storytelling, facilitated dialogue (sense-making) (avoid cross-contamination and ego protection), NO signed witness statements nor record anything, they read back (trust/accountability/support)
(THIS DID NOT HAPPEN TO TEX AND I AND WE RECORDED THEM BUT THEY DID NOT RECORD US THEY SAID WHEN WE ASKED FOR THE FOIA BUT ON OURS IT SAYS A RECORDED CONFERENCE CALL…???? CHANGES MUST OF TAKEN PLACE AFTER US THEN HUH), No “cause” —-conditions, context, chance and then the Recommended NOT recommended…
I arrived in San Diego Monday into Tuesday early AM and slept from 218am to 244am then went walking on the beach and around 5:38am until 6:30 walked back towards Humphreys Inn then breakfast 645 to 745am where there was a Marines outfit with 100s there and then conference from 8am to 1900 hours. I liked meeting first Peter Tolosano then reunited greeting with US HOTSHOT ASSOCIATION Randy Skeleton and BIA John Mosely
Bill Bondshu along with John Mosley put on an excellent conference this week.
2018 California Inter-agency Wild land Fire Risk Management Conference San Diego, CA April 10-12th 2018
https://www.facebook.com/BIA.PRO.Forestry.Fire/posts/836031209930753 / https://www.eventbrite.com/e/2018-california-interagency-wildland-fire-risk-management-conference-tickets-41465605743)
I would rate it a solid ten; informative topics and highly recommend to anyone wanting to learn about fire and its risks and safety-
and Woodsman maybe people do not engage on IM yet I saw it at this meeting of people in the industry from many agencies that they do engage though.
Great energy at that conference.
Michael Klusyk of Santa Barbara County Fire – FIRESCOPE task force will be in the future be making powerpoint presentations sharing just as you felt and are seeing…and he shared an amazing shift he is seeing in the skunky spotty fires and these odd cloud formations that end up out in the ocean.
Out of ALL the speakers if you eventually see this video when it is up this man Michael was the man who said the least ums and he got my vote as best on overall for bringing the audience in even though the all laid pretty even across the board as really good to excellent speakers..
bring on the youth, man and get the young at these meetings and as Sherman said we need to as adults lead by example
and I guess that is the realism I have received in my time sharing with RTS because it has seen where he was my opposing person on IM here to then HEHSN emailed last Fall when I told her I mentioned her in my vlog tied to WFF and she shares on a topic I have avidly focused on and have found nothing to support the content on this topic so because of her I have gained even further fire data and learning too much high school mentality is being used back channel… very sad …being tied to me should be a label or click situation…people should be able to speak with me without the coaxing of do not talk to Joy or judging me to them like you did but act as my friend on our last talk and I am thinking we are friends based on that…sad world.
act like my friend as I have the audio stating it on her behalf and then the coarse stuff saying why are you tied to Joy – you can lose some credibility that way… was said to someone I know from her really … that’s a bullshit if I ever heard one but hell it sparked me to become a student of fire and build my credentials in the industry so thank you to her firstly than to IM folks helping me to make that happen as I attended 2018 Arizona Wildfire Academy and plan to be a long time student there as well.
I got my big girl panties on as TS would say it…however with that said World, again if anyone has told you I ever said ANY ill word about ANY foundations tied to this aftermath of YHF…they are lying because the only people on record or off I have discussed concern about was the 100club and YHRG…the rest is someone trying to cause harm and disconnect and to have you view me WRONGLY.
COW BELL rings at 8:59am —paid for mixer and ready for terrific time…
BIA John Mosely and Bill Bondshu kicked started the conference by stating they sold out this year—150 people registered. YES!
The video tape will be emailed to those who registered in 2 months. They sold out very early this year. Every person got up and shared who they were and location of career and type— very well mixed from ages to agencies…I believe it was YHF John Burfiend who was first to introduce himself then Doug Trapp and Eric and John Bishop and Jay Schaeffer and ? and Dan or Don Terres and our favorite good man US HOTSHOTS ASSOCIATION (join today) Randy Skeleton who is related to Red Skeleton, Chris Schow, ? and ? Steve Holdsambeck, Kurt, Fire captain, ?, ? and a dozen mumbled their names, Tom Hudson, Wayne Seta, ?,?, Gregg Parker, ?, Jason, Brian Glass, Jeff, Larry, ?, John Bates, ?, ?,? David Whitt, Sharon, ason Jose, Eddie, Jeremy Lawson, Burnett, Dean, Hillary, ?,?, ME, RTS, Al from Glendale CA, retired smokejumper Ted Mason, Mark Doyler, Mike, Keith, Tim Blake,Collie, Dan, Fernando Mondes (GREAT SPEAKER), Mark, Torres, Brian, ?,?,?,?, Tom Zeller, John Mosely, Don Whittemore, Mike Null, Glen, Kip, Rick Logan, Brian, Diaz, Jason Brackpool and 6 others and YHF Brad Mayhew and Brent Stangeland of CALfire…J Amador, Scott, Elaney (THE BEST Scott and Laney), Tom Sherman, Pete, Tom/Tim, Russ Copp reg 3 type 1 (he knew Gary), John, Paul, Kenny Sutherland, Chavez, Jack, John Hickey, Doug Elliot, ?, Brit Rosso, ?, Scott Hansen of San Marcos, Mark, Sandy, Fisher, Ester, Kevin…Kip Karel…Clinton Hamilton…Brian Fennery Former SD fire chief/former Laguna HS..etc…
WELCOME TO SAN DIEGO from Sand Diego Fire and Rescue Dept. Kelly Zombro Deputy Chief
then LUCK RUNS OUT started at 9:29am until 10:18am Don Whittemore- Mission Centered Solutions (SFODA 3235 patch) the center has special forces and fire folks- (10:45-11:35am)
basic jump school. talked about the catastrophic results of 2 tangled 300 ft and lost all lift and the slightest errors…. 550 special ops (died)/25-45,000
Not indoctrinated until you mess up.
His daughter is a Hotshot Missoula training but he misses the jazz of it.
KEY WORDS I GOT FROM CONFERENCE ABOUT THE PRESENTATIONS: More complex. High Risk. Increased Risk. Ability/plan/operate/support
Superiority- losing it (gap)
60’s Avengers John Steed
Assess risk ART SKILL
assign share mitigate
train to understand
Definition of hazard pay
Loggers are number 1 deaths (YET SONNY IS ALIVE STILL), then fishing then firefighters/special op
62 deaths/100,000
R.F.D.
Decision Making
Perception Gather Data
Recognize Problem or change
Do the outcomes justify the risks!
215A
1970s way of thinking— DOCTRINE —- NWCG/FEMA
Severity to Probability graphs
proposal/probable/occassional/robusts
Influence— likelyhood and probability scale
3 high risk areas ( hard to tell )
spoke on bear activity of N. CA vs Alaska
Boundary of Camp Pendleton ( high)
DIV A 3 hours to level 1 trauma center (high) ( golden hour)
Planning
Mission Control
Soldier Endurance
Weather
Terrain
Sustainability
Less than 3% snake eyes 30 to 1 PAY ATTENTION TO IT!
Risk Value (numerical value)
Risk (governed by probability)
Roll the dice
17% chance- 7
14% chance- roll a 6
11%- 5
odds keep shifting and we don’t feel it
ORDER BOOK- Optimism Bias
Risk= Numbers not emotions
Risk —> deaths 1 in 1613 (RFD)
LCES (personally) (platitude)
(say it less and mean it more)
After South Canyon — Paul Gleason —- Dude Fire
Mitigation
cannot eliminate risk…inhered what we do…when humans involved
Risk Guidance= know the dangers. Don’t engage. No life is worth an acre of land.
Ma kettle story—repeat—-1,000s repeats…
So he told a story and showed and old eroded pioneer dirt road and Ma and Pa Kettle took that in their wagon and it was not the right way they did it but they did it then the next person saw the tracks so they went over same tracks repeating it and so on and on and that became the norm but it was wrong…
ruts were made…wagon wheel ruts…
160 rules…field observer…5 foot of manuals…follow all the rules and be safe.
recon flight—-minimize risk
Break happened and I freaking loved Scott and Elaney—definitely see them again—
Good laughter.
I, Joy, really liked this speaker’s “passion” for safety.
KEY WORDS I GOT FROM CONFERENCE ABOUT THE PRESENTATIONS:
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
2 dimensional matrix graph used of exposure to provability to severity
what’s at risk? (water/power/fish) examples mentioned.
Exponential function
Valve is a constant to the power of the argument
“exposure” time of year
Our Individual values…preserve life…prevent harm….basic needs….human livelihood…ecosystems…natural
Camille Fire….
prioritized values @ risk-
1st responders…public safety
protecting the public is different than protecting us
Take Forest Hwy 3 on fire high risk x 3 lowest value— you are assigned to protect
“sample” humor …seen this? no. SAMPLE…cute humor.
Social Disruption.
COP PRIORITIES VAR
gap analysis- end state
objectives- success conditions
strategies
tactical assignment
risk analysis
Leaders Intent!
“obsessed”
“don’t squat with your spurs on” mortifies him
Get on this- “serious” LEADERS INTENT
task and purpose
Acceptable Risk
GOOD CLASS: 481/580 workshops
WA National Capital Region
C& G —- command and general staff
DO YOU ACCEPT THE RISK?
ask yourself then
DO YOU ACCEPT THE PAYOFF?
task: why is it important?
DIV A high risk x 3….”risk professional”…”shared risk”
Sense of purpose steers leaders intent and end purpose— EMPOWERMENT!
REBUILD 204
what are the risks? risk levels?
it is a simple task to make things complex but a complex task to make them simple.
LIMIT EXPOSURE
You cannot eliminate risk
snake eyes come eventually
complacency. tired. loud music. still risks. 30 trucks. less experience. different exposures ( 30 pallet scenario)
mentions Mark Smith and Gary Helming
215A — real
Dave Williams N Rockie Region mentioned— safety margin created through mitigations can be misleadin when the consequences remain high.
HONEST and TRUTHFUL to the resources at hand
the severity/likelihood probability
Remote is still high. Exposure. talked about Bob on Serranos’ Fire
Mark Sanchez sat next to me and he had me smiling and in stitches and his pal said that’s what he does….funny man…we talked about his ties to Arizona…neat fella…
Bang on his head— poetically
VAR guidance
1. develop acceptable risk to VAR guidance table in
2. Incident Priorities VAR with delegation
3. More sophisticated prob/severity matrix with exposure
4. leaders intent on delegations and 204
5. risk level and why on 204s
During question and answer part some man stated odds/dice/memories
is the pressure to move red to yellow?
opinions made
Boots on the ground….Buckhorn Fire
do a 209
NWCG GIS SEC training for maps during break John Mosely shared to me ways to get into the industry when or if health arises may it be mental or physical so you can still be in fire industry and this was a neat topic for him to come up to my seat and talk to me not knowing my history and my interest as a student of fire and looking at realism of health concerns which my health has always outweighed my life choices…it seems to in prior time limit me but in recent months I stopped allowing that and just do….with currently fighting some infection that 3 antibiotics did not work or steroids and this week at the conference my temp was 99.9 in start but fluctuated up to over 102 and I emailed pics of my tonsils to my team and called 3 times and they never returned call but I know they will say if it was an emergency than dial 911 and get to the emergency and if you can let us fly you there and charge you $75,000 so this weekend I plan to really rest…It was sure great to talk and meet CA power and electric co./former Hotshot /type 2 and 1 IC Bill Molumby
First day 4-10-18; morning is over and lunch at Point Lomas was tops then head back and listen to Peter Tolosano introduce NWCG Risk Management Group Mark Goeller- NWCG Risk Mamangement Committee Chair from 1259-128pm
3 functional branches
policy planning management
equip technology
preparedness
5 branches: forestry NPS BIA NWCG USWS
3 state reps NE 9 Keller MT 6 Mike DeGroski Mark Goeller covers Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico and Southern Joe Saul-FF energy/shelters/ppe/nutrition
Brit Rosso- LLC Wildland (RMC) Subcommittee Hazard Tree
Kathy Komaz- safety field
IEM 6 min. for safety (Collie)
WF inherent risk involved…potential for injury…”environment”
RMC R- risk M- management C- Committee
Health Safety Standards Process
Foundation
Educate people what we seen- Fed/State Rep
Safenet
SafetyAlertsMemos
Safety Gram
NWCG Publications
Terminologies for Burn Over
Entrapment
Qualifications
Historical WF
2007-2016 Fatality Study Recently Released
skew data
RMC pub review/revision
athletic training IMTS
NIOSH WF Health Effects Study
HTSC- Strawberry Fire safe action plan
analysis LLC tied together
IEMS clinical guidelines
cache medical kits NTDO Heat Stress Study
NTDP PTproject
WF Culture Change
Qualifications/Training of sawyers=Strawberry fire
Joe Feiderlich
Culture Change
NWCG Gov/Committees/Risk-Management Committee
—————————–
131pm-210pm Thomas Rolinski- USFS Used a sunscreen ad.
I dont like sunscreen World—this is Joy saying that—be good to you and your skin and use
fresh ginger for sunscreen, google how to do it…I have many ways I do it
Weather Dry Fall 2017 Santa Ana Wind Season Compare
Dominant Weather Pattern Fall/Early Winter H—->C—>
E cold snowy Hi/Lo pressure pattern (Jan. storm) (Miracle March)
Feb Talk1 storm dry…not uch grass then rain and now turn around with grass crops
temp/precipitation Drought conditions/returning red zones
drought monitor every thursday
“Atmospheric Rivers” youtube
Fuels Conditions(live fuels)(below normal) Dead Fuels
Variable Grasses. Tree Mortality. (129 million) (humor)
Changing Forest. Structural Weakness. La Nina Formation El Nino
150-155pm someone was nodding off—wasn’t me 😉
look at 3 month weather forecast
——————————————
227pm cow bell rings
2:30-4:05pm NOT ON AGENDA but excellent speaker Fernando Montes
agenda stated Sean Fraley – Kern County Fire FIRESCOPE task force
FIRESCOPE REMS Update 2018 ICS-223-12
brief history
provide original intent
changes and discuss changes
Aug 2012 Fort Fire Klamath National Forest
Oct 2014 Formalized by season 2 (meets 4xs a year)
10 spec. groups consistent def. of REMS, ordering process
2015 position manual. 2 tech spec. arduous fitness level.
Low angle rope rescue trained- paired off
4 wheel drive p/u or Equiv. and 2 ropes 150′ ropes- 15 carabiner
Survey Monkey IMT MEDLS then email set up to accept rec group
formed October 2016. Emails he got was how to make him wealthy with the help from a Nigerian Prince.
3 emails were not enough. They have Ken Cruz (retired) FIRESCOPE task force DIV Chief OCFA,
Brian Gaddis cptn Kern County, Clayton THomas EMS SPEC Cptn PennValey Fire Prot Dist.
John Walsh
Matt Peterson
Oscar Varas- lil’ tujunga HS crew “suppress”
Ross Bus Group= 0( won’t work)
(subordinate’s #s) Resource type
from overhead to equipment
#1. Rec# “O” to “E”
#2 4 people and leader (single resource)
#3 Standard “E”
#4 Education RT-130 refresher (education comp)
#5 2 team members are (low angle rope rescue to high)
REMS order filled 28 total (source: Ross)
“orders UTF
unable to fill 91 total major changes
“E”= equipment cache “Hike-In” “Vehicle Based”
App- FREE download FIRESCOPE app today
——————————
Wildland Fire Lessons LLC
Mission statement: Promote learning culture to enhance and sustain safe and effective work practices in the WFC “cutting edge”
comment made at 3:01pm by Tom Sherman John—> Ops/Safety
FAMOUS SMIRKS—> unfit medics. Wildland type guy.
Brian- “jack knived”- wrong spot
do right thing do engage communication
REMS checked in National Standards
170# or less
“Krusty” Jack Morris
230-405pm
WELCOME WORLD TO “Human Performance Optimization” (HPO) Program “Performance”
with Los Angeles County Fire Dept Air and Wildland Div Fernando Mondes Exercise Physiologist LACoFD
(c) 213- 605-4527 [email protected]
H20 intake, Prior Mental, Tools, Goal Setting, Beep Test, Performance, Pack Test
You learn the basics at the academy.
Plan makes sense. WOD- work out day
Triangle graph of Performance medicine to left and Hydration to right and HIGH PERFORMANCE WF on base
Recovery training and recovery “broken”
FSA Academy Physical Assessment testing
Safety Summit—- 185# bench press, hex bar dead lift 225#
recovery and restore
Paresly, Kirk
Emotional Side Effects “Performance”
Hydration
Weather
DripDrop (He said he was not plugging the product but World be careful using the product and keep eye on your blood work especially in the potassium section)(can rupture the walls of the stomach and intestine and rash and ulcers and throat
Fatigue Science
Work/Rest ratio common test
5 days= class DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN EXPERT
over training
1 mile run, 100 pullups, 200 pushups, 300 squats, 1 mile run
What is YOUR heat tolerance — test it—- (Israeli Defense Space)
—————————————
went back to room and showered and then went to Nordstroms for items and then hit the after conference mixer then ate at Brigantines than crashed— late night again that I did not get much sleep but awoke
and went to a point breakfast place that looks casual surfer spot
and by 8am Chris Schow USFS
spoke about
RISK AND EXPOSURE OPERATIONAL VS STRATEGIC 8:05-9:01am
deputy director, fire and aviation management Pacific SW Region USFS, 35+ years in fire and aviation, Sawtooth Helitack, McCall Smokejumper, conservationist and philanthropist
Risk and Exposure
OPS vs Strategic Risk
Santa Cruz 9-11-17 Potato Fire 4 jumpers
OP RISK- spotters, check-ins, winds/terrain,etc.
mission accepted- jumpers away on the ground/mitigate
STRATEGIC RISK- Decision FMO/AA level- contain @ 1A, per fire management plan, lma etc linked to unit plan.
South Canyon- 24 years ago.
Storm King= values assumed?
Jack B. Thomas
OP RISK: South Canyon- BIG IMPACT PERSONALLY
reconcile “we can’t fight fire and adhere to 10/18”
was strategy assumed? Have we gotten better? in what areas?
STRATEGIC RISK: through analysis to enhance certain meeting objectives over life of long term incident or season
OP risk: 215A, risk management process, PPE,decision making fft crw8
STRATEGIC risk: tools, WF DSS, RM PRO, environmental assessments, decison maker, agency admin.
exposure: op: risk protocols, downhill check, aviation watch out, flight necessary? transferring risk? or exposure? CRWB/OP
Strategic: chiefs letter 2017/2018
Different levels of Risk Management Professionals (Tim Sexton) (NWCG)
strategic standpoint land fire management
paraphrasing Vicki Christiansen Buckhorn Fire
3 ring binder TRADE OFFS— Risk or Exposure
Value driven— WHO values it? How much?
Often done intuitively and quickly— op/tactical level
create time/space strategic level
Are the values understood by all? Storm King
OPS
trading odds of bad outcome for odds of good outcome.are values clarified and understood?
when rapid good enough — transition to more analytical
Strategic
analysis of uncertainty
what are the trade-offs? relationships? internal/external. Cost VS Values
@ risk vs safety other values?
F I R E P L A N N E R S (M O D E L I N G)
close with USFS MISSION- to sustain health diversity and productivity of national/forests/grassland to meet the needs
of present and future generations
What type of Risk are we transferring to future generations.
E X P O S U R E tracking acres for risk backing off R ridge value driven what drives the decisions
Does Exposure = $$$$$$? Red Print on powerpoint- What trade offs are implied by not going direct on a fire behavior
No value are risk? What should the opposite? (Potato Fire) Ocean and channel Flank
questions from registered member audience: Phil asks shift—$$$$$-folks who do contracts
branch director buckhorn is a focus of one registered member at this point.
Wind taken out of exposure….Get Contract and Show Up! $$$$$$$$ won’t get in that way
(thomas fire) (exposed alot of people to stuff) (lightning strikes vs suppression— No storm)
Fiscal — mechanism — readiness —maintain— trim– INTENT.
cow bell rings 9:05am
Mike Noel introduces a beautiful soul and survivor of Storm King Fire and I really listened to her and tried to parallel her sharing and think to Donut and how he shares…I really tapped into this situation of listening….9:05-10:30am female 47y.o. of Oregon Kimberly Lightley USFS SURVIVOR barely survived the horrors of the 1994 fire on Colorado Storm King Mountain that claimed 14 fellow FFs ( I, Joy, could not help to think of Jim Roth and all his efforts on shelters and David Turbyfill and their loss and my emotions set in at this stage because as the photos of Jim Roth’s brother flashed on screen my eyes poured out gobs of tears thinking of those 2 men)
Ted Mason (WO) Kimberly begins by saying what a honor it is and nice to be here. She begins with Aug 5— Mann Gulch and the sadness and yet as a young FF simply dismissed it as if it could never happen to her and went on to have this exciting career. Eagle cap- engine crew— 18y.o. USFS – guard school Pine, OR region 6
Sisters, OR (big) then became an adrenaline junkie Prairie 92′ 5/15 tight— family commadrie — Science degrees alot had—
93′ went by then Kings Canyon wilderness poison oak June 1994—- “cow pies” shaped as baseball ground as a fast time after mopping up
21 days–then day off 7/4 went to Crater Lake to shop as they stopped alot on the way to see the lake
She said Tom Shephard would pull out and order out LOOK AT THE LAKE and let’s go—shop then group pic
Doug Dinbar (touched pics) 7-6-94 (FIRE ORDERS) i-70/CO (mop up) South Canyon Fire- where’s lunch
pack red bags last load up (I FELT THE PHOTO SHOWN WAS SIMILAR VIEW OF WEAVERS OF THE YHF)
gear off/man handle branches then the feeling to put pack back on (radios) (#10 radio) BLM crew on ridge
(AT THIS POINT I HAVE A SERIOUS DEGREE OF EMPATHY FOR DONUT EVEN THOUGH I KNOW MORE DETAILS ON DONUT IT CAME THROUGH AT THIS POINT MY EMPATHY FOR DONUT)
Looking at photo and the steepness of that area—quite a degree of slope
6th year to sz. lead. Alex/sawyer/ear plugs in/saw (west drainage)
(BLM ff running too slow) (RUN FASTER) (Peg board- watch footing) 3 words- PULL YOUR SHELTER
(light switch) Brian Kip Grey helped her Eric gone. where are they? She froze solid. brian situational awareness
choose profanity . movement. angry. get mad. down to earth. buddy system pray peace
“groan” waterfalls (E drainage) dark room- warehouse —sleep
paramedics “what’s your name?” hospital. Bill Baker. 2200 hours.
Brian Schulls— lost 9 — lost 3 — Helitack guys folowing am (no injuries) (EXCEPT the MENTAL injuries—decades)
not a pt system contribute to injuries HER STORY! forged by fire. 24 years ago — made her a fighter. Won’t engage too much
on the depression area of it and the survivor guilt after that—never went back to the crew to work– tried various spots in the industry
she was a biologist and VANISHED purposely and worked for a lab pharmaceutical as a chemist (ON PURPOSE- DISAPPEARED)
—-it made me THINK to HOW MANY on YHF have done just that——In 2002 she had a beautiful daughter and talking about genes/eye color
blue eyes and how she is 16 this weekend so HAPPY BIRTHDAY to her daughter…They vacationed on the Oregon Coast— run down shack—
Physiology Responses to ocean) (intrusive/senses—SOUND…trigger) Redding 94′- 96′ local trauma —EMDR— 11 years later—
not yet—for seeing the wall of flames
black leg
then the tears increase for me so heavily and snot not helping my inflamed tonsils—by 10:22am 4-11-18 (THICKEST TEARS) it hit me hard HOW MANY LAYERS the YHF has and how de-sensitized I have been to not just Donut but loved ones because I lay it out as I get it but that does not mean others comprehend or get that is all I am doing, I am not writing a book and I am not filtering the data…I share it raw as it was coming and it was not until the odd scenarios of my court case and the months before of being trailed of my every actions and getting texts from local FFS be careful Joy Chief Ben Palm is trying to get you arrested that I had to be direct and stop that and to have a situation where someone says to me if they had to take it that far to court setting than isnt it serious and I am thinking well if NEW YORK TIMES got one on one of their staff as I have audio of that person upset telling me that on a hike then I figured bad phase in grieving process and the brunt of IM is being placed on me alone since I live locally and the others are mainly avatars and not full names like me so I figured I was getting the heat but none of it is founded really and alot laid HEARSAY…I was told direct of people in authority it was this one person so that is how the comment was ever born…took months to build me to get to that comment…now if people could just GET I will not give up on the 19 and all fallen and I will get their truths out in best documented way and NO WAY would I take the data I have and allow it into any book for profit and it is as serious as this is best suited to be handled as I know it is in the right hands for it will be beautiful when it is timelined out as it has been presented to me…I truly feel its the proper resolution to a serious concern. also REMEMBER I hold emails from before 2015 that were very warm and supportive from this person who switched to not seeing me as me and began their own perception journey and I never posted her private stuff and never will— I knew it was private that content so the journey happened so to me I always will feel 3 women fed into this scenario over time….very HS mentality. THAT IS PROVEN when you gather foias and public records and if I wanted I could be a real “d”weed but I am not HS mentality and want to get the truths out only….back to Kimberly but during this speech I could not help to think of YHF and the 19
Kimberly mentions red zones EMDR 21 days (RTS has written about that on here before)
she then explains why she froze. She wanted to continue to be a support ….Preparedness RESPONSE RECOVERY YHF Fire Strong
20/20 segment on EMDR Peace sign graph She had hard time forgiving herself and self worth
Reroof home scenario—- frog fire—- memo team- sit down —coping mechanisms
how to heal. 30 days out. 60 days out.
accept. actualize. repair.
UPSTREAM- build prot. factor. workforce education for personal accountability on mental health
MIDSTREAM- early and effectiveness. intervention
DOWNSTREAM- safe and compassionate
a man stated she should tour on a national level and speak. TRIANGLE GRAPH: clinical, peer support, workforce, leadership
trauma trained therapist for that industry
stress first aid…red green yellow light chart
Factors in recovery from adversity / stress
stress model
7 c’s
guided options
stressors (tipping pt)
FDNY Frank Kitchen table menu scenario
Marcus Cicero
Instrumental info. emotional support
1. check intuitive
2. coordinate
3. cover
4. calm
5. connect
6. compatency
7. confidence
linear progression
4 causes. life threat. loss. inner conflict. wear and tear
ready reacting injured ill
stress continuum model
Prineville HS
Yellow Zone VS Orange Zone factors
injuries
(at this point I am emotional and triggered and realizing how much focus is kept on certain areas and not ENOUGH on Jim Roth’s brother and how important change needs to be done not the SHIT I heard from Steve Holdsambeck…safety matters and Holly E. Neill has it right there with her webpage…I will be at her and John MacLean’s presentation May 3rd and 4th to see what has happened 5 years later.)
the only mental injury I have faced with YHF is the game roles of FOIAS and public records and others omissions and yet labeling me as they have through time because I participate on a site that allows you to freely speak and this site is looked at as a BIG NO and I need to speak and anything I have spoken has a backing to it and it is in process with another’s legal situation using other eyewitnesses accounts to create their case as well and so I have confidence God’s plan is working its way through with the storms and all—)
back to Kimberly— cover actions standby make safe make others safe encourage safety perceptions
Fisherman story–her summer in Juno Alaska and her dad the former Korean war vet fishing for salmon/halibut
winds picking up. inlet. island. 26 ft tide change. (wind and noise roaring caused her anxiety) (dad clearing throat—stress)
they arrived safely but 4 did die….
Your leadership skills speaks volumes. What makes you feel safe? She began martial arts.
Open/Focused
single resource—GMHS ALumni and her participation there
Important to be strong for them (don’t lose it) (count the stars on the flag) (theres 50)
covered herself. Situational awareness clarity/curiosity
talked about green June bugs
she talked about the Italian philosopher the GMHS motto and its origin and how it is where Eric Marsh is from NC state motto
Brave dispatcher (run) 1 on 1 aftermath. CALM. quiet. compose. foster rest. soothe. be creative. being present. connecting. (isolation) she talked about the wives of the FFs too. She also mentioned who kept her alive as after this happened she was in an aisle shopping and saw Anita and Anita in baby steps invited her to quilt for 6 week classes then choir bells at the Lutheran church that went on tour and that “lonely” feeling was then changed….
look out….dog…
Listen World- this lady could of kept on talking and let hours pass—it was a shame to see her story had to stop due to time —very informative speaker and it showed we all have our perceptions and triggers but in the end truth is truth…and it always makes its way forward and all the time people talked bad about Glenn or me or RTS…the facts are there…
at 1050-1145am Research on Firefighter Risk and Safety Bret Butler- USFS
Reducing Entrapment Risk (Sicence/SZ theory/New Tools)
Risk= Hazard x Exposure. Hazard —> Risk
His son Gus is on a HS crew- lewis and clark
his words not mine “Stupid” hunting story (5 young men)(4 hrs Lyma MT)(elk hunting)
—“it’s okay. I am on your side”— (side note elsewhere)
it was a camp stove/heater. enclosed tent. (heater on low) I should be dead. Life flighted out.
Risk 0 Hazrd. Stove decision= hazard.
(I could sense and feel the strong pull of Christianity with this man as he spoke)
He stated he is not a miracle person. he uses pie graphs on aviation/vehicles/other/heart
aviation 1st pie 23% 2nd pie 18%
vehicles (1) 23% (2) 20%
heart (1) 22% (2) 24%
other (1) 11% (2) 21%
entrapment 21% 17%
Combustion Reaction MAX FLAME 3600f/flame residence time- 30 sec. 10-12# every # wood
4170ft-air 1ft- wood flames
he said his words that got him in….”turbulent diffusion plan”—
how fast can air can get in zone
for every unit–opens up understanding of wild land fire
Slope. Terrain. impede the movement of air-
escalator (wooden) (fire) spread rates?
35-40% factor- scale. (increased impeding)
Wind. (terrain slope)
6ft fans on ceiling- concrete building
(y=0.12x- 0.872 R2=0.89)
(y= 0.026x 0.004 R2=0.99)
USDA FS fire behavior research
ROS- rate of speed
ERS
funnel jets of air safety zones: S Canyon fire
Simple Engineering Model. (4x flame height)
Direct Measurements
model based on measurements (grass shrub)
Wesley 244 cases entrapment reports (unique) graphs
probability of fatal injury
what level is acceptable?
IJWF
separation distances (1980 april task force)
entrapment model summary— shrubs most dangerous
for each 3′ in flame its odds of injury 4%
Bret at 11:09am spoke about Dr. Ted Putnam
then by 11:22 went into Combustion Model. High Density. 10m deep flame 60 s
residence time (total heat wind 3-4xs radiant) Fire shelter
1124am Tom Sherman spoke in (GOOD MAN)
SSD= 8x veg height x triangle (delta) S L O
grass brush high brush crown 40-200
Lodge Pole Pine= > 50% beetle kill
50′ tall 15% slopes 300′ away
Safety Zone vs Deployment Zones
Limited ingress/egress. Why are we there? Missoula MT
He was worried. Crew died. Very few entrapments
something different and better (Butte fire trial- cut those trees)
New tools. Wildlife Habitat. 24acre 1200′ ave. diameter
WSE APP wildfire safety evaluator
—SPOT Gen 3 globalstar Juoquin Ramirez ([email protected])
Wind Ninja- mobile and laptop
Digital elevation maps
calculation— some terrain factors
1143am Q and A
Fire Weather Alert System weather.fire.lab.org/fwas
alert
Matt Jolly Missoula Fire Labs
wfas.net/dev forecast version
Publish csiro.au/wf
fuel and topographic influences on WF burnover
fatalities burnover on S Canyon
Science Review— 5000 units
wise calculator safety zone
(Did I say how kick butt Elaney Karabestos is…really a great woman)
1145- 1pm lunch time at same place
cow bell rings 1:04pm
1:10-1:26pm THE ONE I VOTED AS “BEST” OVERALL ON MY EVALUATION SHEET—
let me along with OES Ken Hood introduce FIRESCOPE Safety Specialist Group Michael Klusyk- Santa Barbara County Fire- FIRESCOPE task force
he gave 2018 update. appx 10 on as a group— 1972
MISSION- OES, Decision process, cont. process, common voice, task force, spec. groups, B.O.D., OP team
FIrefighting
RESources
California
Organized for
Potential
Emergencies
215A ICS fillable
standarized flagging colors (17/18′ projects)
Mike Klusyk Don Reyes Wayne Seda John Walsh Glenn Morrill BLM Dave Witt Mark Sanchez Larry Vogus Barry Clinton
and spoke too fast and moved list off fast—
(OLD SCHOOL= Tom Sherman in my way of thinking 🙂 )
Kip – how do you standarize? flags? sharpies?
Health Hazards and wellness documents
Respiratory Protection documents
Smoke between cancer/smoke/other
links to firescope
Marijuana Cultivation Document task force
Merger: FIRESCOPE SSG/CWCG safety group
Closing: transparency and communication are the keys to our success
EVERYONE HERE HAS A VOICE
[email protected]
John Mosely comes to me and we talk maps and weather on a break—he tells me winds come from Thailand and he continued to allow me more data HOW to get into the industry without going through FF training—other ways and I did not even have ask on it..he just shared his story—
Bill Bondshu introduces Richard Dykhouse- Santa Barbara County Fire
1:27pm-3:04pm CANYON FIRE
(Kit) Canyon Fire Deployment 9-19-16
boots on the ground
what did I learn?
excellent intro
CA-AFV-003151 Vandenburg
40 year drought stressed manzanita, chamise and scrub oak
Weather. unstable. topography. Santa Ynez mtn range. Initial Assignment
Disorganization of the Organization. Helitak (leadership) (helibase)
what’s on paper is not always what is said
control objectives (work) (mop up)
Helitak crew. (dog leg)
Fire Progression Maps
perimeter control
(1100ft elevation) Firing Plan- ending pt. @ Delphy?
mitigate hazards with LCES trigger pts. established
PNF FIRB Apple Valley Holding LPF Holding/Weather
2 trainees do not make a fire boss 1279 charlie
SBC dozers 1&2 – line improvement and spot firing begins
1311 hours. 1406 hours photo. favorable winds.
met at dog leg. — validation of cable rd fuel break cleared confusion
meeting location with div z wind shift (1450 hrs) (not expected)
1512hrs 22 min later E-33/vantage pt reciprocal management
1 min. to pull such — all fire downhill to bottom then area ignition uphill to ridgetop
unanticipated fire behavior
2pm watch videos
s2/avery rd
1622/1623 LAMPO canyon fire? when? youtube videos
Edited by Tony Petrili who I earlier looked into to see where he laid in this industry since there is
obvious divisions
Rob hazard fire beavior (1500) convected force
1530 pushes the inversions/collapse 1545 egress and deployment
Chief Bell/Perry. develop a non-sandy spot where deaths were on road
Good to go—– drive—– not run over humans or ridge
Volume of wind (velocity) (smack) (hand on glass) (high stress)
Progressing. Disagrees with what BLM put out. (220pm) Bullshit!
RTO Jake- deploy N edge of rd
Man said as he was going—gotta keep up
Smoke
Hypoxic incline only think back to training shelters
set/reset 8-10 times
Firing boss get into truck—dont break glass/radio
be prepared to set burn over
dozer jumped on engine cptn
initiated IWI command “smoke inhalation” Mike LaRey
(2:29pm) Laticious? IC 2 deployments they weren’t briefed within 4 hrs. Document. Fresh.
Mystery Ranch gear 5′ in air from wind
(My online plug for MYSTERY RANCH Brian Tarr— highly recommend you check their website and products out- excellent.)
2:37pm discussion on contributing factors
Final thoughts 2:44pm
Who’s S.A. is compromised?
40 years earlier in same place a tragedy took place— lives lost— FFs
I, Joy, asked this witness if his account since they never placed it in the original report will it be an addendum to original report and staff ride so those can show more data vs what was concluded—
Wayne Seda…Kip….Honda Canyon…Mark Piper
——————————————-
315-425pm RISK MANAGEMENT TEAMS USFS Tim Sexton I was looking forward to this one but on that last break I was talking to Douglass Elliot and a red haired man ugh last name started with a K and first name too came and this man was near enough a part of this topic…and when I saw him I saw a double…I did not share the message right then from beyond because of my direct talk with Mr. Elliot but I missed alot of the Tim Sexton presentation because this man who looked just similar to this man alive who is deceased…seem liked insidious like cancer took his life but the message was strong with showing me the Maxine cartoon strip and the smell of peachy/citrus jasmine smell was overwhelming and the message was overpowering in the section I awaited to hear all day TIM SEXTON so it was not so welcoming for me personally but this fella was a God man and really just wanted this guy to know “hey bro” “I’m here” – and so very high school mentality one man pointed out to me but I began to jot the message and sent it to this man vs. watching the presentation I had looked forward to that day..Laney was like “cool”…come up to my room…”let’s talk” then get tacos…yet I said I would meet there because I had to do some stuff then we took a bit to find parking but we made it to the SAN DIEGO FIRE HOUSE MUSEUM 1572 Colombia Street for 2 tacos and rice and beans…really nice layout….many thanks to the folks who make that happen and I missed out seeing Mary because we got to talking…get well Mary.
Now Tim’s thing was 315-425pm and it was WHEN IS ENOUGH…ENOUGH! I slipped in from bathroom at 3:21 so I missed already 6 minutes. My focus broken. When CALfire was leaving RTS shared to me Brent Stageland on his way out. Neat fella. I know I will see him again…neat person. It is at that stage of it all I learned who the red hair man was when Mr. Elliot and I were talking— Barona Fire Protection District Kenneth John Kremensky station 27 Lakeside CA and I have to say I felt bad I got off being mindful and let myself be distracted by this message coming in but the fella was sure glad I expressed on his behalf so who knows…I wish at times I did not get messages…I can rebuke all day and I do and have but its a stronghold the messages I have seen over time…and I purely share but time and time again people ill-filled judge throwing scripture at me not knowing how pure this gift has been to me and because of the perceived I find it to be a curse and tried over time to have nuns and high religious folks rid of it to have them say I am gifted pure and simple…and to me it aint’ so simple…when so much haters are out there. So Tim mentioned Social Factors…type 3/politics….Wildland Fire System….Reciprocal Fire Protection Act 42 USC 18569 What Fed agencies use to justify firefighting on private lands?
risk cannot be eliminated. trade off firefighter
RMAT. VALUE. RISK. IMT. (343pm) (Hoard)
(14 days- fire out) (WA DNR ODF) (NPS BLM)
I surely was distracted and I am deeply sorry Tim Sexton and I hope to see in full you at another conference in the future. My fault for allowing the message in and not ignoring it to watch your presentation but this fella was like “geez this girl can see me..” so he did all he could to talk…
Mapping retardant an water deliverySuppression Difficult Map SDI Mop up hazard map safe? consequences
BLM GLenn next to John Mosley—
cow bells ringing
4:41-5:37pm Brit Rosso NPS
I really enjoyed Brit’s delivery and opening up on how people in the past know his lingo….checkers….500 billion billion checker moves
LLC= Risk, complexity. Video (leader intent) Beaver Fire small- downhill short crown run noted by DNS and acknowledged
DIV S “s/z” wasn’t big enough
8 yrs known- too involved—- Tommy big as u dan steve, stay our location
dire situation (c) (fire shelter) burn to W outflow winds- (mind- fire out- gear- weight out options)
Tommy “sorry I got you into this” (timber) ( out too long/took photos)
Heat him like a glove- no refuge from hat extreme heat
Lower leg scorched accordian together the shelter
comfort level? hoping winds would shift. waited too long—ember marks—hot really hot— king radios dozer/shelter/blade protection
TOO HOT to survive so in shelter breather/relax/calm/breathe/helmet in dirt. (snot/tears) (calm) (breathing/throat aching) 2011- use fire shelters?
RTS HUMAN FACTOR entrament GO shelter deployment Orange County has it
NSW Resilency- decompression 4 domains outside foundation
“harder than woodpecker lips”— strong —resilent—-Australian idiom used in military
Human Performance
Spiritual Health
Behavioral Health
Preservation of the forest
audience- 1. complacency and peer pressure discussion
reach out
———————————
so after another long day and another late night and waking up 3am ready to run I was informed maybe that is not a safe solution in the dark in a foreign area so ended up relaxing but did finally get around to get going for last day of conference HAWAIIAN SHIRT DAY themed so I wore the shirt of my husband’s Tom got him from Hawaii—I would of never paid almost $200 for that shirt but hell that’s how they roll…I was real beach casual and ready to get the day on UNTIL I SAW WHO WAS ON THE AGENDA…I was looking forward to the navy seal fella yet seeing STEVE HOLDSAMBECK name —that was emotionally going to be a hard one for me after all the behind the scenes I have seen so it did throw my mental off for even wanting to attend…Clinton Hamilton f CALfire warmly and kindly and with much thought introduced USN seal retired Kevin Blackwell who in the past year had a heart attack and stent put in so really good to see how well he is doing—
8:01am cow bell ringing
RISK MANAGEMENT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE 8:01am-9:38am
he talked about those who preserve and those who destroy
top 3 in your organization that are made successful (effective) RISK MANAGEMENTgood standards, staffing, mobilization, equip improvement, logisitics, finance
Agenda. understanding the reason for USSO COM (communicate)
determining suitability SOF truths 80′ 83′ develop organizational alignment mission
national intent
not going to condem—- mitigation/planning
what is the objectives? errors?
what is the actual assignment?
SOF TRUTHS
Quality is better than Quantity
1. human 2 quality 3 SOF cannot be mass produced 4 competent 5 most
levels of planning—strategic, op, tactical, situational awareness
Measure for risk 1. mission 2. resources 3 personnel
used that severity probability chart
Risk assessment matrix
Human Factors
at 9:45am US HOTSHOTS ASSOCIATION fellow member Brad Mayhew warmly kindly greeted me hello Joy and at first I was like I know
his face from somewhere else and he stated YES US HOTSHOTS ASSOCIATION conference—-too cool but it kept
rolling in my head that name rings a bell tied to YHF for some reason then it clicked he was the YHF SAIT Humans Factor (Fireline Factors Consulting) fella who was noted
in the SAIR but there was never any separate Humans Factor report tied to the SAIR so I look forward to my hike and time with him….Brent is going to love his time knowing me…the point that people have for so long we have lived a life of “let’s hike but don’t tell anyone we did” but what lessons of good come from that—we all should live thinking what brings us closer to our Divine purpose of existing and I will not go down in history being a part of the click who turns people away- I have hiked people or interacted personally with folks who were on that YHF or on the teams looking into it and there should be zero divisions…when you get done with a hike with me I have never turned away anyone even if you were on the acknowledged opposing side and that alone should say alot for my perseverance and for my integrity alone. I was never selective and that tells one alot about my character. I cannot tell you HOW MANY times I talked or hiked or mentioned someone here on IM to have certain female energies call those people to try and get those people not to like me or engage at all with me and the people tell me but it shows in my foias/public records as well too. There is a select few that do try and make you not like Joy…and most cores because I write on IM…and I almost gave it up until after I made that promise I heard some down right lies told to TS than I was like yeah that’s down right wrong…and harmful…A little on Brad—Brad Mayhew served on the US Forest Service Los Padres Hotshot Crew (Santa Barbara, CA) and Santa Ynez Helitack Crew (Santa Ynez, CA); a kick ass guy. He has a master’s degree in Human Factors and System Safety. He has served on investigation teams around the country, in the roles of lead investigator, human factors specialist and I look forward to my times in knowing him. I feel my time with him and showing him data will be very helpful in his personal and professional life. He is probably one of my most look forward to hike…probably because he is a human factors guy and I tend to like to be around those folks…
Oh crap people…I see Ralph Gonzalez was next to speak and I found the formulation of video delivery confusing but I am sorry I start to see me closing up again… Ralph Gonzales, who works in the Forest Service’s Technology and Development Center in San Dimas, Calif.
(https://archive.org/stream/800043-yarnell-hill-fire-report/800043-yarnell-hill-fire-report_djvu.txt) and I found myself energy wise looking at him starting to like his dialogue once someone spoke up on the video confusion and so he spoke 9:47am-10:40am. At 950am the video was playing. Do more with nothing. 50’s Missoula Equip. PIE CHART: aviation/fire equip & chemicals/risk management
how do we deliver cargo? FAM portfolio – 49 projects & OP Support
(hat/clothes) He addressed he was the Lead Fire and Fuels Program Leader on YHF and he says “um” alot but so did so many…
He spoke on Joe Domitrovich and Joe Sol
Tony Petrili fuel shelter project Missoula tech and Dev. Center prototypes Regen Issues Group fire shelters Flame front Simulator Canada test Rate of spread Exercise/Smoke Lunches (caloric) (sustain) Logisitics SOF community DlA (use) DSA UGRS First Strike Rations Communication Problem FLA Report
I enjoyed this round of sitting because Laney was next to me—she sure is the quickest one hander I ever met—true skill 😉
10:45am-11:15 USFS Steve Holdsambeck
MOST difficult part of this conference for me as you read below and you go back to Tex and Joy’s actual interview (recorded) and you see what was in SAIR and HOW it does not match the numbered list below except number 2 for sure — I know they have a quick round/deadline to figure out a conclusion and fill in the blanks but they totally have distracted the world and media and books and movies omitting facts especially ones we eye-witnessed and that is wrong especially when a loved one continues to perceive I am a nobody in this YHF and reality I am more of a somebody then folks on the ground because I had front row seats and watched the day unfold and videoed and photographed and observed and saw along with Tex…so count me all you want as a nobody yet when it all trickles out in the end you will note how much you were wrong…because I not only was the eyewitness and gal who directly helped locals and buried so many since—I have preserve to ensure the truth gets out properly
now for Steve’s oral:
AFEU mission
1. assurance of no punitive actions
2. STORYTELLING YOU BETCHA
3. facilitated dialogue (sense making) (cross-contaminate) (ego protection)
4. no signed witness statements/ do not record
5. read back (trust, accountability, support) if this were true all our account would of made it to SAIR/ they did not read back-
6.NO “cause” conditions, context, chance.
7. recommended not recommended.
06′ HS Brit Rosso
lead by example
line officer
Random/unlikely coincident of time, space, hazards, and conditions, that influence the tension
The recent above words is all a blur because I enjoyed Tom Sherman speech then I totally understood Brad Mayhew’s speech and RTS’s speech=
it is not easy to be called to duty to be an investigator to this extremes and on a deadline so I get that yet for sure it is obvious build the conclusion first then fill in the blanks because a FF told me last Fall that is how he is being trained in his position and between that email from that lady on RTS and this fella and just the combination I thought it is time to make me one of you all…I am going in…I am now a long term professional student to fire…I have no clue if it was Steve who mentioned Brit or if this is now transitioned into the 11:15-11:45 piece of Brit’s presentation LLC UPDATE for specific issues raised from conference BRIT ROSSO NPS
However let us get the younger generation sounds like Brit—vs. Steve
Brit likes a diverse crowd and robust conversations from diverse ages and agencies
I do remember during Q & A RTS got a chance to speak I think…oh no he raised his hands and was overlooked and “time for lunch”—that’s what it was…Sorry RTS…lunch sounded better to us all…what were you going to say anyways…I never did ask you…
try to post one last time
I like Kipp Morrill—BLM as he introduced after lunch and this time I ate my own meal—no sharing and I think it was emotions that I ate a whole tuna sandwich on sourdough vs half…food use to be my pal…so old ways seeped in…
113pm-134pm-Clinton Hamilton CALfire CALfire 2017 Incident Deployments 17-CA-BDU-008717
Dozer Park Brakes June 24 2017
July investigation — Brit calls it “sense making”
Brit was a good part of back and forth flow with Clinton
I am still so impressed by Elaney today…gonna miss her fun…
I found myself following footsteps to alot of folks with using our cells for personal on Ralph Gonzalez’s presentation from 130-230 but it lasted 7 minutes and again I found us all slowly engaging as he spoke about FUEL GEYSERING and from 2:23 to 2:30pm we did Q&A. FY18= fiscalyear 2018
fuel geysering review
what we know— fuel
works with industry- counter measures
next steps
They talked with Husqvarna
Fuel Geysering= fuels–> super heated
Human Factors—gas
26 data
was not forest
1/2 tank or more discussion
1. fill 2. big 3. top off down time 4. troubleshoot
hydraulic frac balls (threaded cap= Ted Mason 1:56pm)
We did not stick around long but we did wait to talk with Brad Mayhew as we did have to hit road…some folks have to go to college…John Burfiend who was the pilot on the YHF was stating he is due to retire soon…I reckon he will be in Cost Rica drinking MaiTais or Tequila Sunrises—-may I kindly suggest local’s family drink DULCE DURADO ( http://dulcedorado.com/ )
exhilarating road trip back to AZ and home in the wee late parts….temp. was 102.1 and I called the doctor immediately Friday and I have had 3 rounds of antibiotics and steroids—something has to give—check again Monday and meanwhile rest….
I’m pretty sure Randy Skelton (and any number of other people there) know me as well. I am pretty sure I remember Skelton from the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Developement Committee.
April 14 2018 7:15am [email protected] Judy Garner
emails me:
Joy,
At this time State Land has told us to have you contact their PIO officer for any further information you may need.
Thank You,
Judy Garner
Chairman
Peeples Valley Fire District Board
——————————–
They have not fulfilled public records request from June 2016
Chief Bob Heckman is leaving office and the original man who came back and told many locals his actions that day of being on the Shrine as well has a documented article in paper/media is going to be new chief Mr. Bob Brandon and so I did not want my request lost in the weeds and MIND YOU WORLD part of my request was all data on BOB BRANDON so I am not at ease he is the one who is handling my request now this much time later so Ombudsmen is aware of it as well as state PIO and this is very unacceptable public records behavior. Again if something was to happen with my current flair of health plenty of you know back channel where to go and as well my testimony that includes much documentation is headed to a court level anyways for someone else’s situation as that person will show exactly all that took place especially on June 28 through June 30th to show the well documented timeline so indeed eventually this all will break lose and the facts will be shown so again never buy into the SAIR if you are a current FF…I will be back later today to share my conference week as many will be peaking here to get my chicken scratch notes as they would come to me as I sat there and said I would love to see what you are writing and I said I am lucky to even stay awake with as little sleep I got but sure I will post it but much I write cannot make sense…but isn’t that my normal Gary 😉
So see you later today again with my recap of the conference. I just woke up to that email above and I already formally filed a complaint awhile ago and refreshed them with this new data…
The 2012 GMHS YouTube Crew Video is gone. from YouTube. Here is the error message you get now when going to the link below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdcttYOCJEQ
Large circled ! on left and … “This video contains content from WMG, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.”
And by the City of Prescott
CityofPrescottVideo
Published on Nov 26, 2012
‘WMG’ stands for ‘Warner Music Group’.
YouTube has been involved in an ongoing copyright dispute for WMG for years now.
The message means there is some music in the audio track of the video that is currently violating one or more of the ‘copyright agreements’ currently in place between WMG and YouTube.
SOME things are ok… others are not… but the rules keep changing as they continue to battle this all out in court.
WTKTT,
Interesting. I have seen where this link will reveal the original first image of the 201 GMHS Crew video for maybe a second or two then dissolve away to the above warning.
Every single time I come back I have to read a whole book just to catch up. Especially Gary’s works of “Stranger than Fiction” 🙂 Novels in themselves.
Glad you and IM are all still well and doing good work.
I don’t think I’m ever gonna be able to watch Only the Brave, it just brings it home how f’d up it was that day. Even the trailer freaked me out when it came on in the cinema when I was watching something else.
Anyways – be good all I’ll try come back more often..
In rewatching the documentary “America’s Burning” I was touched by Claire Caldwell’s words (paraphased) “It would not have been for someone’s property but rather for their lives that Robert (her husband) would have
sacrificed”.
Could that have applied to the lives in Yarnell?
Welcome back Otis, we have been worried about you, way across the pond by yourself and all.
I went to see the movie, pretty corny and predictsble over the top dialogue, but everybody’s a critic. It gave a general look at being a hotshot, so I kinda liked some of it for that, very little, but some.
And hey, thanks for your plug on my book I am writing in dribs and drabs here. I had an unusual career, or should I say it had me?
**
** ‘4490red’ REDUX
Shortly after the Yarnell tragedy, one of the wildland firefighters who was THERE that day posted 4 videos that he took on June 30, 2013 to his own public YouTube channel.
The username for his public YouTube channel is ‘4490red’.
As has been reported on this forum some time ago… the ‘YouTube’ user with the name ‘4490red’ is actually Arizona Globe DOC Type 2 Crew Staff Officer Anthony Caulfield.
He and his Globe DOC Crew were assigned to do structure protection on the north side of the fire, in Peeples Valley, on June 30, 2013. Following the deployment, they were ‘staged’ at the U-Store-It storage facility on the north side of Yarnell proper.
He removed those 4 Yarnell Fire videos he had originally posted to his YouTube channel when someone informed him those public videos were simply being ‘discussed’ on this public InvestigativeMEDIA Yarnell Forum.
But just last year, on June 4, 2017, ‘4490red’ posted a NEW ( public ) video to his ( public ) YouTube channel.
The NEW ( public ) video that he has posted actually CONTAINS all 4 of those original Yarnell Fire videos of his, including the original background radio channel conversations.
The first video is the one that contains that clear recording of Eric Marsh made at about 10:00 AM while Caulfield ( 4490red ) was ‘staged’ at the Yarnell Fire Station. He recorded Eric Marsh making a radio callout to OPS1 Todd Abel… but there was never any response. Marsh used the ‘Granite Mountain’ call sign because he had not become DIVSA yet at that point that morning.
There are also 8 COMMENTS left on this new 4490red video, including one from just 48 hours ago.
All the comments appear to be from other wildland firefighters… ( one of them with 34 years of experience fighting wildfires )… and it’s interesting to see them admitting that they fully believe Eric Marsh ( in their own words ) “screwed up”… and the SAIT is/was just a complete whitewash and coverup..
Here are all 8 PUBLIC comments that have been left ( so far ) on this newer 4490red Yarnell video.
A link to the PUBLIC video itself…
——————————————————————————————
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnbW2j6Orv0&feature=youtu.be
Video title: Yarnell Hill Fire 2013
By: 4490red
Published on Jun 4, 2017
Total views ( as of April 11, 2018 ): 3,043
Description: Yarnell Hill Fire – From one crews perspective.
Category: News & Politics
License: Standard YouTube License
Music: “Einaudi: Nuvole Bianche” by Ludovico Einaudi Listen ad-free with YouTube Red
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The 8 PUBLIC Comments left so far ( as of April 11, 2018 )…
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Chris Eisen – 2 months ago
God Bless. RIP Brothers, we will take it from here.
1 Like
Jeremy Cox – 2 months ago
Rest In Peace Brothers see you on the other side. Thanks for watching our backs everyday when are out on the line.
1 Like
Eric O’Brien – 2 months ago
2013 should have had GPS. Why did they not know where these guys were?! That’s my question.
Travis Nelson – 2 months ago
eric obrien… Better question is why they went downhill and losing sight of a fire that was advancing towards them and end up in a friggin box canyon?! Sorry, with all due respect, Eric Marsh fucked up badly. He even took his crew to Colorado to see the memorial site of the 1994 Storm King Mountain tragedy to ensure that it would never happen to his crew. Check this article:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/relay.nationalgeographic.com/proxy/distribution/public/amp/news/2014/07/140704-south-canyon-wildfire-colorado-wildlands-fire
2 Likes
Jeremy Cox – 2 months ago
He made a mistake that ( cost ) his team their lives
But as firefighters we agree because of their sacrifice we have become a better community because of it. While we retreat God sends them in to cover our escape.
1 Like
Travis Nelson – 1 month ago
Jeremy Cox… Jeremy I agree with you and I have nothing but respect for them. What bothers me is the cover your ass attitude of the leadership and this crap about not speaking ill of the dead. How are you supposed to learn anything when the top leader is saying, Well God had another plan for them.
That’s bullshit. People screwed up and it needs to be learned from. Look at the Storm King Mountain documentary made by one of the survivors, Eric Hipke, who himself said, Now we’ll take you back to those events so you can learn from our mistakes. It’s ok to acknowledge that people who died screwed up. Just go where the truth leads and quit the Golly we’ll never know for sure crap.
1 Like
Jeremy Cox – 1 month ago
Travis Nelson hopefully they will make a documentary about it.
welderse14 – 1 day ago ( April 9, 2018 )
A documentary will never be done… Only The Brave came out based on Donuts account and the general public is satisfied with that version.. A true documentation would show how there were so many screw ups on the fire that it would also clearly point to those that should /could be tried civilly or criminally…. All levels of government, and the personnel involved want this one just to fade into the sunset…..I have been a wff for 34 years and NEVER seen such a botched operation AND snowjob cover up…
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Well…I guess we are t the only ones who can call a spade a spade. I’m bettin’ that the vast majority of current and former WF out there along with everyone who has common sense knows Dudley & Company are a bunch of lyin’ dogs. Which is pretty sad commentary if you really think about it…and I have thought about it.
And if you have ever wondered why I usually exclude whats his name from Florida? It’s because whats his name from Florida was just the face of the SAIT, the evil brain was Dudley. Kinda like Pinky and The Brain. Which maybe you never watched…but it used to be on at some point in my life there wasn’t much else to watch, and I thought it was really well done and kinda funny.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iEbqL2WMAcE&t=0h0m23s
And IF you have wondered how I can reconcile saying Shawna Legarza was/is tougher than me AND I never met a woman who would make a good First Pulaski…it’s because when I knew her, I think she probably only weighed about 90 pounds. I mean…she had like 0.5 % percent body fat and was a fanatical runner, but body weight can be useful, IF you know how to leverage it. 🙂
OK…true story. the Taos Ski Basin and the Carson National Forest sponsored a US Forest Appreciation Day. And everyone who worked for the USFS, got to ski free for the day. So anyway…I decided I would go up and see why so many people loved to ski.
As you can imagine…just about everything, no…EVERYTHING was really WRONG with that entire idea and violated all kinds of policies AND federal laws and they never did it again. But, times were a little different back then.
Not that much different though, I bet somebody got sent to do a few years at the Regional Office in Albuquerque in “The Hall Of Shame” where USFS Professionals sent other USFS Professionals when they fucked up big time and should have been fired. Except the USFS was/is run by Professionals for the benefit of other Professionals, while most of them fuck over the Forestry Technicians, which is what I was for about 14 years.
So anyway…I thought I would just jump right into it, because how bad could it be? There were little kids skiing all over the Bunny Slope and I didn’t want to be with them. And so I took the lift to the top of the mountain…which was a huggggge mistake.
But…there I was, so I spent the next few hours skiing a leg, falling over to stop myself, tracking my skis down, finally getting them back on and skiing another leg and falling over again to stop, since I couldn’t turn or stop on those fuckin’ things.
Finally…I made it back to the bottom of the mountain and it was a wide open space, so I just listened for a big bunch of fuckin’ Texans and plowed right into the middle of them to stop one last time.
Well…that was enough for me, I turned those fuckin’ skis in and went into the lodge to get some hot chocolate and thaw out. So anyway…I was standin’ in line and this big group of loud obnoxious Texans, (in other words, they were acting normal for Texans) were laughin’ and horsin’ around and one of them backed into me pretty hard.
The others laughed at him, including his girlfriend, and one of his buddies said, “You better watch out Bubba, that big ole boy is goin’ to wup you!” And then everyone laughed at him some more. Well…by this time he was really pissed off and so he bowed up his back and squared off on ME. I hadn’t done anything.
And then he drawls at me, “The bigger they are…the harder they FALL!” And given the kind of day I had just had gettin’ off that Black Diamond run, I put my mean face on and snarled, “Listen Tejano (which technically just means Texan, but for a New Mexican…it means a lot more than that and all of it really bad, especially when you say it with a Spanish accent and SPIT the word out of your mouth), the bigger they are…the harder they HIT!”
And then his friends were really laughing at him and I walked away without my hot chocolate and just went home. And never…ever…ever, tried to go skiing again. Fuckin’ Texans use Northern New Mexico as a big playground and all of them misbehave.
Notice again how I did that? Another big set up and long story to stick it to USFS Professionals AND Tejanos.
Oh…and one more thing. We had the world famous Santa Fe Ski Basin on our District, the Tesuque, that was later absorbed and combined with the Espanola Ranger District. Which was when I became an AFMO, in addition to being the Santa Fe Hotshot Superintendent. But…they never had a USFS Appreciation Day, so I never tried to go skiing at home.
There was a lot of that starting to happen (combining Forests and Districts) and the lucky ones got a pay bump and the unlucky ones lost their jobs.
My supervisor, Orlando Romero, more than doubled his office workload to go from a GS-9 to a GS-11 and so he asked me to take over all field operations and supervision, (Fire Prevention Techs, Lookouts and Engines) without a pay bump. But most of the Techs who work for the USFS, don’t do it for the money…they do it for the love of the job, including me back in the day.
And I may be assuning to much for some of you regarding what a USFS Appreciation Day meant.
It meant that public servants, who earned a good wage, got to ski for free, at a world class skiing resort, the Taos Ski Valley (not basin, we were “ basin”) because the ski resort was located on National Forest land that was administered by public servants YOU PEOPLE paid to administer said land on your behalf and collect fees for the use of that land by the owners of the ski resort to offset the cost of managing that land on your behalf.. That is what is called a bribe.
I wouldn’t even take a cup of coffee from those I contacted in my professional LE capacity while representing the USFS and YOU PEOPLE. And that included the day I accidentally stumbled onto the scene way up in the Sangre de Christo Mountains in the snow where they were filming “Red Dawn.”
And because I was wearing a USFS uniform and a gun, the movie director thought he had to suck up to me and he wanted me to have lunch with he and his staff and sit next to him while they filmed (which I actually did for a little while…but no free lunch!)
Oh…and one more thing. I was a hotshot crew boss when I took the free skiing. I didn’t care about things in those days except for;
1. Cutting fireline and burning it out.
2. Cutting fireline and backfiring it.
3. Cutting fireline and burning it out AND backfiring it.
4. The last fire, the next fire…or some other fire.
And yes…I do know I recycle some stories like this last one, but some stories illustrate more than one point. So…
I have some really great news for everyone! I have been working on my riddle.
Riddle me this? What has been worshiped as a God; is alive but can’t think, react, or move on its own; breathes oxygen and dies without it; has no vocal cords but can roar; has no legs but can run as fast as the wind; is as terrifying as it is beautiful; is a good friend and a bad enemy; obeys nothing except for Mother Nature; kills or destroys everything it touches without hesitation, anger, malice, compassion, understanding or forgiveness?
WILDFIRE!
C. G. Olson, 2018, Fair Use Permitted
Oh…and when I was writing about even the random incidental deaths of wildland firefighters would be reduced to almost zero if everyone followed all of the rules all of the time…I should have mentioned issues like helicopter mishaps as well in addition to tree/snag strikes. For example, I think the death penalty would have been justified in the specific case involving Carson Helicopters. So…
Yarnell evacuation:
Is there data to confirm that GMHS moved from the black toward BSR and Yarnell when evacuations began in Yarnell?
The use of fire shelters is a very complicated case, You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Gary’s head.
So if I seem to be schizophrenic on the subject, it’s because it so so complicated and nuanced.
Yes…fire shelters can save WF lives in very limited and specific situations that never should have developed in the first place,
So…here is the specific objections I have to fire shelters.
1. Old time WF were so opposed to them, the fire gods grossly exaggerated their value and effectiveness in order to get the pendulum of acceptance to swing back the other way. They greatly inflated the number lives of WF who had been saved by them to hundreds when I suspect the number is in the dozens, very few dozens, like maybe only one bakers dozen or even fewer than that.
2. WF have not been trained on the severe limitations of fire shelters as in, wait for it…”How Big Is Big Enough” etc.
3. I believe the virtues of fire shelters have been oversold, that the younger generations of WF have taken stupid risks thinking fire shelters will save them if the situation goes to hell in a hand basket, kind of like some people do when they have seat belts and airbags.
I think there needs to be a top to bottom review of WF safety and it should have been done right after the Yarnell Hill Fire. Exactly like the US military does after their ships collide, their airplanes and helicopters crash, or other accidents happen that may be part of an emerging pattern.
And of course the very worst thing to do is exactly what the fire gods did. Generate a report that concludes that everything if fine, nobody did anything wrong, it was the fault of a natural occurance that can’t think, move on its own and has to follow all of the laws of nature at all times and therefore is completely predicable.
There is obviously something very wrong if the fire gods can lose an entire Type 1A Hotshot Crew on a fire except for one man and by all rights he should have died as well except he was saved by the quick thinking another hotshot crew boss.
And then have that crewman emerge from the ashes and state things like, “the WF rules are hillbilly, we are a lot smarter than that today.” Especially since the man is clearly an idiot who could not have possibly dreamed that opinion up on his own…that was how he was TRAINED.
And that is in addition to the fact that the other 19 men from his crew deployed fire shelters in an area about the size of a three car garage when they needed as much as 16.5 acres in order to escape death and serious injuries.
Although the Mormon Lake Hotshots did break and run, or at least 50% did, and one of them was the crew boss. Frankly…I still don’t know why not a single Granite Mountain Hotshot broke and tried to save himself?
.
Whoops,
I should have written the fire gods should have had an WF community wide stand down for a top to bottom review of “Safety practices and TRAINING.”
And if you think about it, which I have been, all other hotshots died running and I’m pretty sure that includes the El Cariso and the Prineville Hotshots. I think at some point some of the Prineville crew tried to get into fire shelters but the slope was to steep and they waited to long. It is amazing to me that all of the GMIHC stayed in one place while being burned to death.
And I do remember Dr.Putnam says he believed more of them might have survived but they instinctively kept all of their tools and line gear with them instead of just stripping off the fire shelters.
And as a reminder of my brilliant employee suggestion that was adopted Agency Wide, I suspect training on the importance of having a second pair of gloves has fallen through the cracks, although Fred said he trained on that?
And that is because is is so easy to lose a glove in the panic and confusion of a deployment that it would then become very difficult, if not impossible, to hold down the edges of the fire shelter, (see, Ship Island Creek Fire).
And of course not dropping tools and line gears is a training issue. BUT…I clearly remember our training said to KEEP your tools in case you needed ypto improve a deployment site. In addition to your water to pour on yourself (so you will steam up nice while cooking inside the turkey basting bag).
So which is it…does anyone know? Drop everything and run, or keep some things? Or is it situational and everyone will decide when the time comes which of course is a recipe for disaster.
I really, really, really…really, really really do think the entire fire shelter deployment training needs to be rethought and revamped from top to bottom. I do think fire shelters played a very big role in the deaths of the crew for several reasons.
1. Over dependence on them because of their exaggerated benefits that would probably amplified by what happened on the Holloway Fire. For example, if there wouldn’t have been any fire shelters in the equation, would Captain Steed still led his crew down the canyon.
2. I won’t say improper training in how and when to use them pertaining to, wait for it…” How Big Is Big Enough”, I will hazard a guess and say NO training in that critical area.
And I think if I ever had the time to improve a deployment area, or the need to improve a deployment area with a tool (other than a bulldozer), I should have kept running IMHO.
BUT…has that been fleshed out? What does the current training say?
And I don’t want to start anything today by insulting Our Dear Leader, but I think saying, “the WF rules are hillbilly because we are a lot smarter than that today”, is just about the stupidest thing I have ever heard anyone say with the possible exception of Our Dear Leader saying that, “Trade Wars are easy to win.”
Against the CHINESE people? Those people practically invented the concept of collective suffering to advance the goals of their country and for the good of their society. Has Our Dear Leader ever heard of, “The Long March?”
Those Trump voters in the Midwest aren’t going to be able to suffer through one planting season. The Chinese are prepared to suffer for the next hundred years, unless they need to go longer, in which case they will without complaining.
The Vietnamese were prepared to sacrifice millions of people for their independence, and they did. We folded and went home at less than 59,000. “Never get involved in a land war in Asia.” (The Pricess Bride). And that includes Trade Wars.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YmT0_hKSUrw
Did the fire gods ever attempt to trace down what that idiot said to find out exactly where it came from? That is the kind of thinking that can get everyone killed…wait, it DID get (almost) everyone killed and the one idiot who survived by sheer dumb good fortune actually was so stupid and obtuse, he actually staggered out of the flames and then immediately started doing interviews to repeat that stupidity to his stunned listeners.
Wait…didn’t your entire hotshot crew just get burned to death because they broke almost all of the WF safety rules at once?
Gary,
The third year Crewman, the “we’re smarter than that” Hillbilly and alleged GMHS “lookout,” was on a small rocky knoll behind and above the Old Grader site that Ms. Joy has so kindly posted for us from her and Sonny’s credible collection of photographs on June 30, 2013.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/r1LuG3tzBHk0Lclr1
This next photo is from a distance looking down on the Old Grader site where the third year Crewman, “we’re smarter than that” Hillbilly and alleged GMHS “lookout” was posted. It is to the left of the obvious open dirt clearing an inch from the photo frame and just over the “say something” thing in her photo on a straight-line vector to the left, at the base of the small rocky knob where he was located.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aUAnXIFqb6RJz08v1
This following photo is of the third year Crewman, the “we’re smarter than that” Hillbilly and alleged GMHS “lookout,” that was on a small rocky knoll behind and above the Old Grader site and how it looked after it was burned over.
It was clearly a deployment site from the start and it’s verified with this photo from Ms. Joy’s and Sonny’s credible collection of photographs on June 30, 2013, after the fire went through there.
Gary,
As a matter of fact and written record, the third year Crewman, the “we’re smarter than that” Hillbilly and alleged GMHS “lookout,” also verified to several of the YHF Investigators that he thought of that very same thing – not once – but TWICE when deciding where he was going to DEPLOY his fire shelter. Nothing about going into the good black up the hill about 600-800 yards away … Ya know, like the one well established in Fire Order Number 4.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/iaGsFGMge8EXAxAY2
Way to go Buckwheat. The third year Crewman, the “we’re smarter than that” Hillbilly and alleged GMHS “lookout” AND I-won’t-be-depositioned-and-I-won’t-tell-the-truth-but-I-will-write-a-book-for-profit guy.
Here is a healthy reminder of the BSR on the morning of June 30, 2013, from Ms. Joy who so kindly posted for us from her and Sonny’s credible collection of photographs which is marker 3:33/21:14 in their film.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RO6oeSKt6OcAFeNY2
Gary,
Way to go Buckwheat. The third year Crewman, the “we’re smarter than that” Hillbilly and alleged GMHS “lookout” AND I-won’t-be-depositioned-and-I-won’t-tell-the-truth-but-I-will-write-a-book-for-profit guy.
Here is a healthy reminder of the BSR on the morning of June 30, 2013, from Ms. Joy who so kindly posted for us from her and Sonny’s credible collection of photographs which is marker 3:33/21:14 in their film.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RO6oeSKt6OcAFeNY2
Next is a photo of the BSR after the fire burned around it. Not quite “bomb proof” but damn close. Certainly, it was better than attempting to create a ‘Deployment Site’ in thick chaparral BY HAND using chainsaws.
NEVER build SZ’s by hand! Use dozers and drip torches well ahead of time and NOT mere minutes before the explosive fire behavior is upon you as in YHF chaparral that hasn’t burned for over 50 years.
Better yet, how about: Base all actions on current and EXPECTED fire behavior and get the f**k out of there LONG BEFORE the fire.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/idvKrBSWSjNLbvXQ2
Gary,
I believe that the 2012 Holloway Fire in northern NV and southern OR was an influential and causal factor that adversely influenced the GMHS to choose to create by hand, a ‘Deployment Zone,’ rather than continue on to the relative safety of the BSR.
Check out the photos of the Holloway Fire shelter deployment of a Zuni HS filler who got couldn’t keep up and got separated from her Crew and so deployed her shelter in very similar fuel conditions and survived with minor burns. The SW HS Crews that were there, including the GMHS, were amazed the she survived under those conditions.
The ONLY man-made product that would have saved those men’s lives that day would have been a literal shipping container constructed of ‘Black Box’ material akin to the housing for the airplane voice and data recorders that survive horrendous post-crash aircraft fires.
There will NEVER be a man-made fire shelter that a WF will be able to physically carry on the firelines that would have saved those men that day under those conditions.
If a WF must deploy their fire shelter, then that is the final decision in a long line of bad decisions by someone(s) that have really screwed up.
Tracking devices and air support will not help because it’s way too late by then. These are merely emotional ‘feel good’ notions.
And speaking of bad decisions, here is a photo of the GMHS Crew Carriers parked in the unburned setting themselves up ONCE AGAIN for SOMEONE ELSE to retrieve their vehicles for the THIRD time in 3 years, to wit, the Sunflower Fire (2011), the Holloway Fire, aka ‘Nevada Fire’ (2012), and the YH Fire (2013). Only leave vehicles WITH SUFFICIENT DRIVERS in the unburned if you must do so.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pkARlJFzaoAGhU3L2
All great reminders and examples of where we started, how far we have come, and how much we have learned along the way as a group. Thanks
We haven’t managed to change the equation, but we have done some good work trying.
So anyway…I thought up a riddle, which isn’t something I have ever done before. Maybe my Princess Bride reference got me to thinking. Oh…and I suck at solving riddles, but this one is easy.
What is alive, but can’t think, react, or even move on it’s own, yet it kills or destroys everything it touches without anger, malice, compassion or forgiveness while obeying no one and observing only one set of laws, the laws of nature.
I don’t know how many wildfires we chased but never stopped until Mother Nature stepped in and put her foot down. But it was more than we stopped on our own. We were often just pawns in the game and sometimes nothing more than observers to some truly spectacular and awesome sights and sounds.
As I like to say, if I could, I would do it all over again, except I would work harder to get it right next time!
Ahhhh…melancholy memories.
And if I seem a little schizophrenic about the USFS, it’s because I am…conflicted. Maybe kind of like an abused child who loves his or her parents anyway.
I think it is easier if you either like/love, or dislike/hate the agency (or company) you work for. For example, I am not conflicted about how I feel about the BLM, but I still love the U.S. Forest Service.
Maybe I should see a counselor or put myself in for another Fitness For Duty round of psychological and psychiatric testing? On the other hand, what difference does it make now?
I’m really getting into this riddle thing. I am going to add, “it breathes air and can be killed by depriving it of oxygen”: in addition to, “is beautiful and terrifying at the same time, it can’t speak, but it can roar.”
“It can’t move on its own, but under the right conditions, it can run as fast as the wind”
“Although we haven’t managed to change the arc of history, we are on the right side of it.”
Whoa now…I’m on a roll tonight!
I have to agree totally with you Gary.
Between a new knee 6 weeks ago and my wife having Back surgery last week I have not been on to comment but have tried to keep up with reading.
Guns or long guns I am a Bolt action 270 man Try to make my kills with one shot that’s how I grew up. The only Simi autos I have are 3 Pistols and a Conceal Carry Permit..
I have shot and qualified with the AR15 during my Sheriffs Carrier. I liked it but had no personal use for one. I also have Pump Shot Guns never liked the Simi Autos.
Enough on Guns.
Yup…I luv em all. I think they say something like 3% of the population own 50% of all guns?
Bummer about your knee and your wife’s back, I hope both of get better. And I am glad you are still here with us…as few of us as there is.
Hey guess what Bob? Okay…you can’t possibly guess what. The state of Oregon recognizes all retired law enforcement people exactly like they do active duty LE types.
The state law that authorizes concealed carry by LE, doesn’t make a distinction between the two groups. I think I will move to Oregon, qualifying by taking a complete state peace officer shooting course for a LEOSA permit is a pain in the ass because I have to find a qualified instructor every year who doesn’t have anything else better to do at the right time and place than qualify me, often by myself. Their law is very unusual…as in one of a kind.
I mean…that still doesn’t help while traveling out of state, but still?
Oh…they don’t even require you to take or pass ANY qualification course. It’s still like the old wild, wild, west.
And you don’t even have to live in Oregon to be protected under that statute, you can be a retired guy from out of state visiting and with nothing except for retirement creds, you can carry whatever, whenever and however an active duty Oregon State Peace Officer can without ever qualifying with it on any course. Now of course individual department or agency policy require frequent qualms from their officers or agents, but a retired person has no such requirements because you don’t have any department or agency. I’m tellin’ you, it’s a really unusual situation.
You should check Idaho open carry legal any where. concealed carry without a permit. State wide. Schools, Court houses NO.
Well…maybe I wil move to Idaho then. I have always liked Boise, except for the summer time when it is hotter than hell. And except for the winter time when it is colder than hell.
Somehow I would pick Arizona AND Idaho for being on top of the list of states that are the most like the Olde Wild, Wild West when it comes to carrying guns. And maybe Idaho is in first place, I do know it is a favorite with the govt. hatin’ militias.
But…I really like the Birds of Prey National Monument and the really big Mountains to the north, where of course I fought fire on both the Challis and the Salmon National Forests.
I will admit ONE thing Bob, if you could only have ONE thing in your backyard, the Snake River and its gorge are AWESOME! And your twin falls are pretty neat as well.
There are some advantages to being a Tunbleweed. Some real disadvantages as well.
“TUMBLEWEED”
https://youtu.be/Jw6SXLDPVEg
funny for me to see in another language gets more views and likes based on not all the truths just what they want you to know
no matter the language world…TRUTH is truth
https://www.indifferentlanguages.com/words/truth
Yarnell Hill Briefing Vídeo. Español. Accidente Granite Mountain
Hi World:
have you ever been at a restaurant and saw some lady “freak out” when a cockroach flew in and landed on her- “screaming she did out of fear ”
with her panic stricken face and trembling voice jumping up and down using body movement waving her hands… (SOMETHING I SEEN SIMILAR THIS YEAR ON ANOTHER AREA) desperately trying to get the attention of everyone of her fears and using that attention to get others to rid of this fear of hers (BY THE WAY IT IS NOT IM TO FEAR) Her reaction was contagious and fear and excitement filled the room…everyone got panicky… now it was the turn of the other lady as the cockroach now jumped on her and she was a part of the anxiety so she reacted dramatic and created a lie of excitement while the waiter calmly took the cockroach and brought it outside where it belonged.
The firm composed behavior of that waiter is what I hope to see us on IM be for the terrible labels this site gets…it is a free place to share
https://youtu.be/Dcf9XhlIPok and Brit Rosso has said for years we need to speak on our struggles and the take home messages and I am excited to go see him in person this week…this is where the learning is gonna happen he says in the video and so I am excited to see what he has to say…he never replied to me when I emailed him on the staff ride stuff….
was that cockroach responsible for the histrionic behavior shown?
If so then why wasn’t the waiter equally disturbed as the rest?
He handled it near to perfect…without chaos
It’s not the cockroach but THOSE people’s inabilities to handle the disturbances and create distractions
So let’s focus to our inabilities to handle and stop laying blame and labels on the world and others
So remember when you have a problem…look at your reactions…and stop saying you make me feel this way…take accountability of your inabilities to handle….
and stop the lies…you know who you are too
“Truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.” Winston Churchill
“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell
And a few more 1984 Doublespeak examples for you:
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
IGNORANCE IS BLISS (Negative – ignorance is DANGEROUS!)
https://youtu.be/vkEL6WiEt1k
WFSTAR Yarnell Hill Fire
NWCG
Published on Apr 5, 2018
when I logged on it had 12 views and I am the one who gave it thumbs down because ENOUGH is ENOUGH of allowing entities to create stories—-
TIME TO ALLOW THE FACTS TO BE!
I am posting it here to make sure my comment that was not there is time stamped if its removed—I will be tracking it again…Tired of being squashed when I was there not the SAIT…
let us get honest with the world even if we cannot handle the truth-
(John 8:32)
Joy A. Collura
16 minutes ago
When are we going to stop creating an orchestrated narrative and start paying attention to eyewitnesses and why do staff rides omit the eyewitness the opportunity to know what is being said to what they saw and photographed. The BSR can never be viewed as a safety zone and at best as an escape route due to the bowl canyon and the density within it. Also time to remember I saw the fuels/terrain and vehicles and people. You are omitting data from the reports and should be fixed.
That is what they want everyone to believe what happened… it is way far away from the truth
This video was originally published in 2013 around the time the SAIT released their report.
Nothing new here except the hogwash has been re-released.
One would like to think they wouldn’t continue to promote it with the verified inaccuracies it contains. But, the many who don’t know better, believe it to be factual.
well there is now 13 comments of mine that shares TRUTHS
and 25 views and it is well documented and others have it saved as a pdf with time stamp Rocksteady so let us see them omit me again
ENOUGH of the patterns of staff rides like Battlement Fire
time is now
this is no campaign
this is facts and truths
Joy A Collura says
APRIL 7, 2018 AT 2:50 PM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
the 13 comments said:
this man that we saw Eric Marsh meet up with—why are you no where in SAIR?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8nD4t1FF3egYFga22
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7sh8zqeTITW1HwHo2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/jyKeVINvpFE3yM7K2 link
area Donut was stationed as Lookout- the old grader that morning:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/r1LuG3tzBHk0Lclr1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aUAnXIFqb6RJz08v1
video of the popping noises and a look of the 2 track road and the vegetation:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6olIzbYdw7q6jpov2
marker 10:13/21:14 is my photo edited/cropped:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7DUMwJePc9Yw4xOH3
what can you tell us sir:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2uSWrrSq1AUPOCkg2
where is the missing aerial data…why was it so hard to work with Peeples Valley FD on obtaining data even though I showed the evidence of the water tender and other data yet I was told I am trouble when I am truth…when did truth become trouble? I did some errors in my personal life over time but they were life lessons and they do not lay a secret and that is all I ask from this personal tragedy that you stop using me and fit me in the way you want versus its pure forms and give me photo credit too— you were not out there on that hot dry day— I was….thank you.
why were they looking at this over by Harper Canyon ever thinking dropping down into a bowl and call BSR a safety zone or even an escape route as you can see they are in above links standing in the black
https://photos.app.goo.gl/H1ldTONx725pLZkO2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ar6E7vT0st4jJwVu1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/89Ni3sBz2XTqBtbE2
Help me understand…
Help me understand…
How Rory Collins suppressed their fire operation and I saw the frustration over there in real time…
https://photos.app.goo.gl/q0DOhbcQQ18FLgvh1
I was not just some eyewitness in town—I had front seat to this show—
saw the terrain…the people…the vehicles/aerial …the fire behavior/weather and where you were yet I am not allowed to be a part of the staff ride—can you answer me why…by the facts it seems some loved ones are causing the limitations of growth and lessons learned as they texted to thinking it was private yet I know— so yeah there is more maturity and data that needs to be public in regards to YHF…
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aZymsABRRk0ndDFk1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pkARlJFzaoAGhU3L2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gxlExntpXaPH8d6z2
I think my photos are credible—don’t you:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/H1uKr0zds6gn2QKC2
I think I made a decent eyewitness thanks to Tex Gilligan requiring me to get my camera out of my backpack and take a picture of this or that…credit is him and his take…I just took the pics.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/IDzVTkEBDluuCAY23
https://photos.app.goo.gl/U6Nrmoagm8t0qorf1
video during time Sonny said the fire must of turned into a controlled burn because of the “hovering” aerial especially the yellow and white helicopter
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MbE0HPW9AyifqRmw1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/SmV875Lu4f59fxBP2 (identify the copter)
Healthy reminder of the BSR on 6.30.13 that exact morning
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RO6oeSKt6OcAFeNY2
which is marker 3:33/21:14 in their film
and that box canyon and its density
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VZ1Fi6daxtuVAhxm1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TaXu3zehZdS4XhKm2
my Saturday night views:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bwpNNj55PdriEFjx1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DSJ698IIm9xllVPh2
JOY A COLLURA photo credit on this video since I asked the world and you are not excluded to give me proper photo credit if using me in public areas- so I will myself since it was overlooked or just considered part of the SAIT but then only parts of my story is part of the SAIT…
MY PHOTOS USED FOR THIS VIDEO WITHOUT PROPER CREDIT SHOWN:
markers:
:46/21:14
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2K8rtv6rks9f4Klh2
4:13/21:14
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pxtQ5F0UzmeKSvBi1
Sonny saw the importance of the burn scars and I am the one who made us wear safety masks:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/iaGsFGMge8EXAxAY2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qqFsNWep8p2jb4ir2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EvzV8bpJr6QWZmlP2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XWOMqQinr5hZLH6q2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dY7bSUAEEW7ZLesv2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LwyM5Z9ce8vdGaEp1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/o1PlYwybBqmMxtAW2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pVwqax32rYYqH2033
https://photos.app.goo.gl/idvKrBSWSjNLbvXQ2
I am sorry but you will not get me to stop until you allow me on the staff ride to see what is being placed out to the world and stop allowing Battlement Fire be a pattern way you do staff rides— it has to stop finally.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/OdUD1QgyZGdWONLX2
at 2:42/21:14 can you let me know if this photo belongs to same person who posted this on craigslist:
Reply [email protected]
Posted: 2013-06-29, 11:50PM MDT
Fire – $1 (Peeples Valley/ Model Creek)
Major fire headed down into Peeple’s Valley/ Model Creek. As of 10:35 PM, it is doubling in size every 2 hours. Livestock is being evacuated. 1.5 miles from nearest houses and moving fast. 40 foot flames from heavy large pinion pine, juniper , and oak trees. Going to try to stop it at Model Creek road, but looks doubtfull. If wind picks up another 5 knots, it will easily jump this narrow dirt road. After Peeple’s Valley, Ruger Ranch and Kirkland are in the line of fire, then Skull Valley.
Call anyone you know in Peeple’s Valley and wake them up. NOW. You may save their life.
Main fire storm is headed North. One branch has split off and is headed East down toward Yarnell. Glen Llah will be first to go if that run is not stopped.
Going to start packing. The fire wall has advanced 1/2 mile in the last hour, and is now 2 miles out. Good Night, and Good Luck. •Location: Peeples Valley/ Model Creek
•it’s NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Posting ID: 3904488410
Posted: 2013-06-29, 11:50PM MDT
————————-
I will be off IM until next weekend
I just wanted to make sure you all had the photos here in case they take them off there
have a good week
SLEEP TIME for me
Joy,
Thanks for sharing and posting these photos and video clips AND for getting feisty and speaking up and taking a stand. It was pretty clear that the alleged GMHS “Lookout” McDonough’s Old Grader Site would have indeed been a Deployment Zone
Joy,
Have your 13 comments and 25 views been posted on Investigative media?
GARY SAID: Hey…but thanks for watching my video, as you point out, very few people have even though the Battlement Creek Fire is arguably the most significant fire in WF history with the Loop Fire. That is because after the Loop Fire, the Chief ordered all hotshot crews to carry fire shelters while fighting fire in flashy fuels. And because after the Battlement Creek Fire, the USFS people who ran the USFS FIRE program decided to actually do what the Chief had ordered them to do 10 years earlier, but expanded the requirement to carry fire shelters to all firefighters on all fires at all times.
MY REPLY:
when you tell your side of the story above I have never really connected as I weep this moment with depth-
I understand and yet I don’t for the ones who feel at ease to let this lay as a lie.
My deepest polar bear hug offer extended to you and I am so sorry you had that happen in your path along with the other sad stuff you have shown and not shown but is real and I am wondering after all the public displays over the years on IM has anyone back-channeled you on this topic the good the bad or ugly??? of Battlement fire details that we eventually will be read in this book of yours?
This Shawna when I googled her and I have no clue about her yet there is something very charismatic and intriguing about her because shows she has a book NO GRASS
https://www.amazon.com/No-Grass-Shawna-Legarza/dp/1439227624
On the above link it says
After working her way through college as a firefighter, the author was part of the World Trade Center Recovery Efforts, where she met her husband who, like Legarza, was a firefighter. When he took his own life, the author mustered a new brand of courage and formed a non-for profit program to help the many physically and emotionally wounded firefighters, too brave to ask for help. This is a passionately told story, filled with determination and hope.
I wonder if one day these collective life events of hers will give you the truths and indeed it matters—
and I read that she was going to get her degree in psychology- did that ever take place and have you ever directly tried to contact her in recent years? I am shocked because Tex Gilligan should recognize her last name because her family lived in the same mining/logger/cowboy towns Tex did…
Tex, L E G A R Z A…does that ring a bell to you? I keep thinking you mentioned that name when you talked about those times you built a ranch home on the golf course; was that NM or NV?
I know in recent years we talked about and you took me to your old NM and NV cattling/cowboy and mining/logger spots and maybe now it means something more than ever but made no sense at the time Tex—so let me some time quickly share does that NAME ring history again in all the life stories you shared…. L E G A R Z A
from your times in Rachel/Reno/Fallon/Lovelock/Elko/Manhattan/Winnemucca and yet I keep thinking that last name rings a bell but I got Pine CA Harkness still on the brain…from that kid named Washington…Please let me know Tex what you remember…there may be a bigger reason you Tex were placed in my path and told me and showed me all you did…because it is very odd the very place you mined in Grants NM was the same place Gary’s dad lost his life…you may have a story and do not even know so please let me know if that name rings a bell or not even if it is “offline”…thank you.
http://www.foresterslog.com/Home/mary-s-links/learning-more-about-wildfires
Gary, I would have to invest time reading her book and then some because so far the lady has me mesmerized and not in a negative way…she has had a full life of pains I feel herself yet surrounded by beautiful souls…I am still on for learning just give me snail/turtle speed in absorbing….
I would hear you say her name on here over time yet as people skim me- I do the same…I look for “keywords” but my keywords should of been focused to your story and I apologize for not Gary.
I was just focused to a certain section of building documented facts on YHF and other fires but I did not bring it in all the way to 1976 when I was 4 years old living near Turf Paradise where the races were my only memories back then and the greyhounds and Rawhide and fishing and Pine, AZ and Alpine, AZ trips…I am sorry. Selfish of me. Narrow minded or tunnel thoughts. Or as RTS said…I never been on the line to feel it and know it (sterile)— too wet behind the ears but eager to learn…
Also like Dr. Ted Putnam—Tex is actually with degrees and he never asked people to say Dr. but I wonder is Shawna now a Dr. Shawna Legarza or still just known as “Legz”….
Give me some time Gary because I am having severe pains in my left side for reals and I do not know if I am capable of handling the truth of this
the more I peel this fire’s onion that makes me weep of yours you write on
the closer I get to the “green” in the middle of the onion and in the culinary world we rid of that toxic green for it makes the sauce bitter not better.
Yet it can be used in a raw salad for the green has good protein…just not cooked in a sauce…
and best thing to do is remove it and plant it in a new environment that you can watch that sprout become the future but keeping it part of the onion not suggested…
I know I am sorry won’t cut it yet I am deeply holding this with determined prayers to God and with Him all things are possible…
Matthew 19:26
I read Shawna’s book. Like I said, I really liked her, I think everyone in the WF community does, or they did back in the day. Everyone respected her, she is tough, tougher than me, that’s for sure.
I also knew her husband Marc Mullenix, he was a great guy, very personable and friendly. Everyone liked and respected him as well.
But…none of that is what this is about. What this is about is the cover up on the Battlement Creek Fire and the long history the fire management agencies have covering up their very serious mistakes and those who do it.
I started weeping at 3;46/9:07
Introduction To Unresolved Issues Pertaining To The Battlement Creek Fire (Part I)
I think more people should take the time and I said I will Gary and I will—
I just really have to keep focus to certain spots right this sec…I will say you do come before my dust bunnies behind my couch…
How come out of the thousand of FFs I have met since YHF as a housewife hiker they have passed and not watched this video as it lays 640 views- seems low in views…and that to me is a red flag if researching and investigating how much lay ignorant…and that is bothersome.
At the 10 second mark is that from that fire?
at 27 sec mark that statement as I am the eyewitness can be used the same for YHF
your maps once made into video form lost their clarity so if you have them can you email me a copy
basting bags…turkey bags…who came up with that term?
who took the photo of you at 3:08 mark?
Let me go get some stuff I need to do and if time later after I read this 27 page paper then I will head back here…k
https://coloradofirecamp.com/battlement-creek/index.htm
what do you perceive of the above link as factual in percentage ratio—80%?
https://archive.org/details/CAT79720486
same here
I will keep on this but so you know it is not easy and its disturbing because my discernment feels alot of disturbing facts I am going to learn that may make me wonder how do I become a new student in fire knowing the history of offenses and still no changes…
https://archive.org/stream/CAT79720486/CAT79720486_djvu.txt
http://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/incident-lists/210-battlement-creek-burnover.html
Tim Foley was on your Battlement Creek fire…hmmm…interesting…
any other links to share to me where I can read about this fire soon…I was kidding about the dust bunnies…they left weekend
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride10.html
http://wildfiretoday.com/2011/07/17/battlement-creek-fire-35-years-ago-today/
https: //w w w.wildfirelessons. n e t/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=d37916ac-e177-47df-bfb4-c7a83ce5908c
The slide at the 10 second mark is what by book cover will look like and it is a photo I took of the fire from our line as we waited for it to reach us. It is of a fire tornado that sounded really loud, even from a distance, like a lot of jet engines sucking all of the air into its vortex. There were a lot of fire tornadoes that day due to the extreme fire behavior due to the fuel and fire weather conditions.
I don’t have any idea who came up with the nicknames turkey tents and basting bags, or roasting bags for fire shelters. Those terms were used widespread throughout the fire culture and I think everyone used them.
The terms are kind of self explanatory if you use a fire shelter for training, they look a lot like really big turkey roasting/basting bags. And we believed if we ever got in them, we would be roasted alive until dead, but we were dead wrong. They would have saved all of the Mormon Lake Hotshots who died because one actually survived, although with very serious burns. He as medevaced by air ambulance to the burn center at the University of New Mexico Hospital even though we were a long way from Albuquerque.
I don’t know who took the photo of me other than it was a fellow crewman I handed my little camera to and said, hey…take a photo of me. It’s just a typical “ hero” photo young firefighters like of themselves with FIRE, while they attempt to prove their bravery while counting coup by tweaking the tail of the Dragon.
The Colorado Fire Camp document you ask about is the SAIR produced by the SAIT of the day and all of the important conclusions and lessons learned are LIES. which is what I have been complaining about.
It’s hard not to cry when you read the report where a hotshot screamed, “I’M ON FIRE!” and then ran down into the fire to finish dying because he didn’t have a fire shelter, nor had he ever been trained on one or issued one even though the Chief Of The U.S. Forest Service had ordered that to be done after the Loop Fire Of 1966. The report says they left their fire shelters in fire camp, which is a LIE.
I didn’t even blink as I stood near the crew boss and listened to them discussing doing an emergency tracheotomy with a pocket knife on one of the hotshots who lived for awhile because he couldn’t breathe due to the fact his throat was burned out. That isn’t even in the report.
No one blinked (reacted in any way) we just stood there in complete silence staring straight ahead without looking at each other. The next day, we mopped up the fire working around the bright plastic flagging fluttering in the breeze that marked where the charred black bodies of our friends had laid the day before.
Hey…but thanks for watching my video, as you point out, very few people have even though the Battlement Creek Fire is arguably the most significant fire in WF history with the Loop Fire. That is because after the Loop Fire, the Chief ordered all hotshot crews to carry fire shelters while fighting fire in flashy fuels. And because after the Battlement Creek Fire, the USFS people who ran the USFS FIRE program decided to actually do what the Chief had ordered them to do 10 years earlier, but expanded the requirement to carry fire shelters to all firefighters on all fires at all times.
And the USFS required that everyone who went to a fire on National Forests, do the same. So that meant ever.y other wildland firefighting agency adopted the same policy, because as goes the USFS…so goes the WF community. And for good measure, they required everyone to start wearing fire resistant trousers which had not be done before. We just wore Levi’s jeans.
So anyway…I think that is the reason the Battlement Creek Fire was a cover up and remains so to this day thanks to Shawna and whoever was pulling her strings. Those hotshots who died…died because the USFS FIRE people were in direct vioalation of USFS policy.
You know, as in, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods.”
Oh…and one more thing. Shawna Legarza is the highest ranking fire god in the USFS and is therefore is arguably the most important fire god in the world. Shawna got there by betraying wildland fire fighters….go figure?
And by significant, I meant significant in terms of resulting in long term changes that effect the wildland firefighting culture as a whole.
The other reason the Loop Fire was so signifant, is because it resulted in the fire gods rethinking how fires were fought in terms of tactics, strategies, and safety policies.
That is why both the South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires are really so tragic, no changes resulted from either one of them, especially the latter.
“Can you handle the truth?” The truth is…once you get beyond the personal tragedy and loss of the Yarnell Hill Fire…it doesn’t have any signifance.
It could have been different, it could have resulted in meaningful changes in the wildland firefighting culture that could have saved lives in the future, but instead…the agencies and those who run them, were only interested in protecting themselves.
And the families? They were only to happy to go along with the lies because it made them feel better about their personal loss. But who am I to judge? I guess?
But there is one thing I do know for sure. Bob and his other brother Bob are right, if all of the rules were followed all of the time by everybody, hardly anybody would ever get killed or seriously hurt except by random.
Even things like incidental tree strikes would be reduced to a bare minimum because those are often the result of procedural violations of sound practices, like failing to use a spotter or other common sense tactics.
https://youtu.be/pl9D4qOvhTY
forgot link to candles
and I forgot you Rocksteady on WILDFIRE TODAY and the article my views
I have myself wrote on here on IM about using when you go to briefing you have the LIFE360 app or GOOGLE one is free called “location sharing” and when you check in on my LUNCHBOX fire and its my fire I am ahead of then if you are on my resource order and I am your leader than YES I am going to make sure at all times you show up on my map and if it does not show my crew and each one on my map and I have a need I am going to channel you letting you know you are not visible on my map- is your location setting “on”…
LIVES MATTER!
Also when reading Bill’s stuff what I gathered from what he wrote that what he meant was The Holy Grail is comprised of two parts. Knowing the real time location of the resources on the fire AND the fire itself. I envision Division Supervisors, Branch Directors, and Ops Section Chiefs having access to the information. But most importantly a Safety Officer should be assigned the primary responsibility to make sure a rapidly spreading fire and resources don’t occupy the same space at the same time. Div. Supv. ALWAYS must know where their resources are. They can walk or drive around to see them or talk on the radio, but having that info which can be seen at a glance, can not only save them time, but adds a huge element of safety.
So what did you not gather that I gathered Rocksteady? I have wrote about that before. If you and I were on the same fire THE LUNCHBOX FIRE— Dude, I give a shit about you and getting your ass home safe to see you with that hair about makes me smile 🙂 every time I want to feel glum 🙁 …you cannot make that shit up…like a finger in a socket…I am jealous the hair you have…I wish I had that…and so yes if I was on the fire with you I would set my GOOGLE map to share my location to your email or text/number so you knew where I was at all times for safety but no way am I expecting you to look at it but if you are up flying above me you knew I was in that LUNCHBOX FIRE and you knew no communications when people are looking for me then you had my location at all times and that does not make you liable or responsible of me and my location but could save my life in case some idiot knew there was squirrely weather and the terrain fuel lacked moisture and you can see in that helicopter the weather coming and and you can see the odd winds- are you really gonna not tell me some idiot on my industry just torched so close to homes and lives including my own? So yeah believe in sending you rocksteady my link to your email of my location while on that fire….it is free…and once fire is over you are not sharing location and you can use a business only email for sending back and forth links…
Joy,
It’s nice to see you are gathering wildland fire knowledge even though it’s academically and somewhat sterile. And your writing and flow has improved now that you create actual sentences and paragraphs instead of a single sentence that is 2-3 paragraphs long.
Rocksteady is correct about Gabbert and Wildfire Today (WFT) even though he has done a lot of good articles, his habit of blocking people because he doesn’t agree with them or they post here on IM and blackballs us, whatever.
So take a chill and back off Rocksteady and let him vent about Gabbert and WFT because Gabbert has done it to me as well and others, some that you cannot figure out WHY he did it. And the thing that most bothers me about that is he never tells you why. That’s pretty CS and messed up and unprofessional.
And one more thing, it’s not HOW the chicken crossed the road – we all know that, it’s WHY the chicken crossed the road. I know things are a little bit different down there in them thar’ heels in Congress ya know
Bill did not say it was a component of the ultimate wff safety.. he eluded tgat it was the silver bullet… guess it’s open to interpretation of the written word..
If he would have said it’s good but wff need to use their training and the 10 and 18 in conjunction with it, I may not have been offended..
Sure… send you one drunk selfie after a 14 day run at 15 hours a day and you think that’s what I normally look like Fergie…:)
Gary, about Bob Mutch-
the smoking gun…I want to touch base on that area and I hope the world sees that comments because it is important
The closed door interviews and the takes there…
I just am battling to get this meds crap week or 3 weeks (I did 14 days and have 10 more days to go with steroids and antbiotics) out of the way and I am focused to meeting Brit Rosso and others next week and learning so my mind is focused to there and it is a foreign spot yet I am glad you spoke on this because going back to Battlement Creek and its great to hear this firefighting perspective if you are a student of fire…what smokejumper almost lost his life for burning out below him? I think talking this topic is going to be my forefront topic or April 2018 so give me a week because I have Wildfire conferences I already have set to do and I am not back burning this because to me it is very important to me. Who was the impatient one on that fire who was torch happy? How can your own people light a fire right under ya…that’s messed up…I have a question when I am looking at this I am looking at this at gender specific because there has to be something said on that because no matter if you are man or woman in the industry how do you allow this many decades pass by and you are okay to keep being promoted in the promotional gravy train and you keep seeing errors and lessons that can be taught yet you do not speak up- how come? As for Mutch I will peak more into it but off the bat he was a piss poor investigator that lays to the good ol’ boys crap— but keep ya posted—
this candle is LIT Gary and we will burn out the hours watching the flames of its history and I only shelved it for wee bit time…k…the reports are never digging deep anyways…
it use to be very high the readership/viewership
but then again when have we kept tabs really
but indeed there is more who read this than post here-
for sure…
especially with the glitches as you have seen happen here
and well we know Wayne’s email tried to post here last Fall but that would fall under someone trying to make assumptions (with laughter/pride tone) on another here without the facts and bringing others names like 2 named sources is not always so simple especially in my research and watching the fouls done to Glenn and RTS in this all…
shoot if you look in the history of IM what one person never took the hike with me but RTS and yet he always locked on 10 and 18 and LCES
so I thought I was more hooked on EN’s stance back then years back on weather and other factors so I shelved RTS and Bob Powers sharing so since I decided to “pay attention” and learn and I now look at who is who head of the fire headships teaching these firefighters and I am learning alot of stuff.
I ask one when you think of the bible and the laws and commandments- have you followed everyone to the tee 24/7 all your life? I have not.
I hope you look at the laws of every area may it be faith or politics or state or even the LCES and 10 & 18—can you follow it all the time…can you?
I mean say I am hypothetical a male FF and I have kids to feed and I am a man and my wife wants a divorce because more women today are the leaders to making that decision on divorce like changing underwear….so say I am a man who has health benefits and my kid is undergoing health treatments and needs my health benefits and I get called to a tiny town in April to do a prescribed burn and I look at the ground and recent weather history and I am looking I am being tied to resources and teams I normally never saw in life and we are not in sync-
but my head is staring at the ground at the fuel that lacks moisture and I know we lack resources because we barely got this project granted but I compartmentalize and tell myself I am all for restoring fire adapted ecosystems yet know timing is poor to light this but I am on this resource order to do a job and I got my kid at home and a lady who use to love spending time with me now wants to divorce me after 30 years
and I think mental and psychology has alot to do with the industry yet what good in that scenario was it to light where you know no winds and the impact of smoke is going to be crazy—what is the lesson you can teach me JOY on that for people reading this scenario…
then years later I the male FF am sitting in a bar with an eyewitness hiker and she tells me she knows it all my actions and purely shows me how and now I am feeling bad as she explains the man I personally saved and got him out and evacuated committed suicide and that how many have died since the fire yet noone talks about it much but I am now drunk in the bar thinking about that eyewitness and now she wants to hike me to the very area I took that torch and lit it and talk about it…so yeah human factors plays a HUGE role why so many do not engage here and type but they are watching indeed.
I see who is being black listed. I will always challenge folks and watch their reactions and document it. I seen the texts of the ones what they think of IM that they privately thought they sent their friends but I got it in a public record and foias…so yeah I do think in reading them these folks never ever thought I would be the one reading their perceptions and ill behaviors. When people judge my informal research style harshly- they might want to take the time and sit in person and learn and compare the data…you might be shocked how much being informal can offer one…but for the record the best data I got was on the formal interviews so it all depends who you are and what your interest in it is because I am never doing a book on the YHF—
alot of setups and ousting and very ill behaviors and high school mentalities shown towards the folks like Glenn (from men who dedicated decades and was well liked at 1 point); for those who know something ain’t adding up and want to work through it they then have become the problem and they are not the problem.
I am very active in being a student of fire not just attending ARIZONA WILDFIRE ACADEMY as a student long term or other schools but I will be at alot of firefighting conferences learning as well.
I thank you firefighters who are sponsoring some areas to allow me this privilege to learn and understand vs. just coming on a blog after a long hike and reading just this page and Wildfire Today-
it is nice going in the field and learning first hand. Learning about BLM and Forestry and structural and hybrid and wildland and smokejumpers—it is pretty cool.
Rocksteady-
Refresher…for the frustrated…
Gosh. I would like to spend all year telling you the positive side to Bill Gabbert and his site
and I will if that is what it takes
because the moment your views were blocked did you email him and ask him why because there is times it is the website and not him and there is times he has been on vacation and was not aware and I have seen that myself.
You also have to remember if you CTRL F each chapter of IM and search WILDFIRE TODAY or BILL GABBERT and seen the harsh words this site and comment wall has said tied to him or his page would you be so welcome to invite and welcome anyone who participates on IM so eagerly to be able to post on his site
and I know from site ownership to site ownership they vary in content
to explain John Dougherty from my humble opinion
John has very limited blocked the world from posting comments so this page is a pretty much non-filtered site but Bill Gabbert has his page set up to be respectful and speak respectful is what I took from it—with the technique of grooming it such way by omitting or deleting or blocking comments.
However to explain John Dougherty again…we all have been given warnings to not attack anyone on here and be respectful and speak respectful yet he does not monitor this site like people think and lives and leads a very busy hardworking life
and recently CHEERLEADER posted and it was never meant to be walking behind someone who’s laces were untied and step on them-
the intent was to draw the world — any one — to get more involved than our select few…
we know how the chicken crossed the road but we still do not know how the fire crossed it publicly—yet Surprise and Sun City and Peeples Valley and certain Yarnell prior employees can tell us how the marshmallows melted over that buick size fire as Andersen early on shared it and its privately documented but the world is not yet privvy…so yeah maybe when the chiefs shift out as some are currently that then the new chiefs coming in see this site when they google their FIRE STATIONS and see IM message here and look into it…versus allowing it to keep remaining to be quiet…
You cannot take a certain stand and you cannot say I know Willis so I know he is okay and he knows nothing and he’s good…time and time again in my research people’s behaviors have been controlled through awards and promotions and ousting and when you have to be integrating alot of information so we need to make people aware of the mental and psychology part of this industry.
…Recently I tried to heal an area with someone and it looked like it was going well until that person realized the hand she just shook which was from a genuine healing spot was JOY of IM and it quickly changed to grief and tears for that person so this site is not an easy site Rocksteady for alot.
This “freedom” site has caused alot of heartaches than healings and I am sure Bill Gabbert knows that and so I stick by what I said about Bill on my cached local vlog here https://youtu.be/43kVzis2Hf4 I stand by and also on Gary Olson….we all should be able to voice our thoughts and maybe some of us have better filtering systems than others or better discernment but the problem begins in all this is when someone emails or texts or calls and tells me I am their friend or does action like a friend would but thank you to folks who do care about me or have their own agenda but in it they shared a recording to me HOW one of those people who claim to be my friend or they say their research style is different than mine how they speak about me behind close doors- that is not good living….that is bad.
I want to close with this video because it best represents what I mean to both Woodsman and Rocksteady…
there is that 1 candle and that is all it will take to light the rest and my apologies this chapter started off on a sore
Please forgive me.
Let’s keep lit
links of interest for me to reference in near future to review and see which ones are the go along get along folks
your take on links is helpful too in the meanwhile
I am afraid the gathering of fools has been labelled to IM yet since we can be real and raw unedited here let’s change those views I see in these FOIAs and public records…I hope one day Gary people see you as I see you…and how the soul can feel so bad…and you are just trying in your own way to help make some rights happen…thank you….
https://youtu.be/vsO33s4rAVE
Introduction To Unresolved Issues Pertaining To The Battlement Creek Fire (Part I)
I want to close with this video because it best represents what I mean to both Woodsman and Rocksteady…
there is that 1 candle and that is all it will take to light the rest and my apologies this chapter started off on a sore
Please forgive me.
Let’s keep lit
links of interest for me to reference in near future to review and see which ones are the go along get along folks
your take on links is helpful too in the meanwhile
I am afraid the gathering of fools has been labelled to IM yet since we can be real and raw unedited here let’s change those views I see in these FOIAs and public records…I hope one day Gary people see you as I see you…and how the soul can feel so bad…and you are just trying in your own way to help make some rights happen…thank you….
https://youtu.be/vsO33s4rAVE
Introduction To Unresolved Issues Pertaining To The Battlement Creek Fire (Part I)
https://youtu.be/qRmmVaMJMug
Introduction To Unresolved Issues Pertaining To The Battlement Creek Fire (Part) II
https://youtu.be/ZBzZzn_AsLc
Why Does My Heart Feel So Bad
https://youtu.be/ZBzZzn_AsLc
https://youtu.be/UlnmLnoXENE
Joy,
I’m going to have to take you off my SECRET file C.C. list Joy. You are living proof two people can keep a secret if one of them is DEAD!
On the other hand…fuck it, who cares? I guess none of it really matters anyway, that is one thing for sure we have proved here on this thread.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2018/03/20/legislation-would-provide-holy-grail-for-wildland-firefighters/
Since I have been having so many problems posting on IM, I am trying Joy’s way by typing as an email then cutting and pasting into the response box.
I tried to rebut Bill’s comments on his site, but since he has me blocked , I will post here and hope he reads it on this page…
Calling it the “Holy Grail” of firefighter safety is his first mistake. It should be called the HOLY FAIL. Having the exact location of each and every person on the fire showing up on a real time giant mapboard is great, but who is going to be watching it? Are they going to know (as an example) that GMIHS left the good black without talking to anyone (in person or by radio or cell) and went to the Boulder Ranch? Is this person going to be able (by being embedded in the operations group) that this would be an anomaly and should be identified to OPS? Or is this person just gonna see them moving and go, “meh, guess they are going to the ranch, I guess OPS sent them there to do Structure Protection”… To make this truly work, I think OPS would have to be glued to the screen the whole day (can you imagine doing that for a 14 hour day?) not accounting for command meetings, meetings with IC, telephone calls and radio talks…. Virtually impossible…
Getting to when the GMIHS called for Air Support…. Would their exact, down to the inch location have mattered? NOPE… They were already in deep trouble and even if their EXACT location would have been known, would the VLAT have been able to dump retardant on a blind target location (cause the smoke was too thick)? NOPE.
Would the fact that these personnel have beacons, assuming that OPS is watching every second all day long, get a false sense of security, thinking they can go anywhere they want (Bad decision making) but if they get in minor trouble that OPS can just send them air support and it will all be ducky (Good Outcomes).?? MAYBE…..
Overall, I feel the HOLY GRAIL, is not technology, it is training, good decision making based on the 10 and 18, and if you are not absolutely sure if the 10 and 18 are fully answered… Pause and discuss or request more info…
It is also especially dangerous when Bill considers himself a “Fire God” and filters the content on the site AND the subsequent comments that only support his opinions.. Those willing to challenge him are soon blocked … Like Me and Bob Powers and others, who have valuable comments but are blocked from voicing our opinions…
Rocksteady,
I agree with you. I also feel the HOLY GRAIL should not be technology, especially with all its flaws.
It is absolutely training, good decision making based on the 10 and 18, because the 10 are a sequential and analytical process with the 18 kind of a check list They complement each other.
Taking a Tactical Pause to discuss and/or reevaluate is normal firefighting business
Gary Olson says
MARCH 27, 2018 AT 11:00 AM
Oh…and one more thing. The reason all of those firefighters were cutting fireline in a giant chimney above an uncontrolled wildfire in Fuel Type X…is because that’s where they all initially ended up in the first place.
And then on one ever looked around and said wait a minute…something is wrong with this scenario.
The helitack flew in to a ridge top and constructed a helispot because that’s what helitack do.
The hotshots were transported by the helitack to the helispot on the ridge top because that’s what hotshots do.
The smokejumpers jumped in and landed by parachuteo on the ridge top near the helispot because that’s what smokejumpers do.
And then everyone started cutting fireline from there because that’s what wildland firefighters do.
In hindsight, they didn’t need a helicopter or a helispot or any smokejumpers because there was an interstate highway running along the point of origin and the base of the fire.
Everyone could have simply gotten out of their vehicles, hiked up to the base of the fire and started constructing handline along the flank of the fire with a solid anchor point like the manual and all of their training told them to do. WTF…Over?
Gary Olson says
MARCH 27, 2018 AT 11:26 AM
Oh…and several smokejumpers were further up the slope and they made it to the top and over the leeward side and survived.
One smokejumper, Eric Hipke, barely made it and survived with serious burns just in front of what really does sound more like an explosion than a fire front.
And Don Mackey could have survived, but he ran back down the slope to help the hotshots, so there’s that then…
Everything looks simple from my La-Z Boy recliner. I have all of the answers…just ask me because that’s what old men do.
Robert the Second says
MARCH 27, 2018 AT 7:58 PM
Gary,
Thanks for the South Canyon Fire refresher once again and the Little Big Horn information.
I have a few points of clarification and emphases to make.
First off, IC Mackey was not building any fireline but was sharpening his chainsaw instead of managing the fire, a clear sign of stress and resorting to what one is most familiar with,
Second, the frost-killed chaparral was a major contributor to both the 1976 Battlement Creek Fire and the 1994 South Canyon Fires. It becomes basically freeze-dried whereby all the fuel moisture is removed making it aggressively volatile and a kindling-like contribution to the extremely low fuel moisture making the entire fuel bed available to burn violently.
http://coloradofirecamp.com/battlement-creek/vegetation-fuels.htm
In August 1983 a grass fire occurred at the Little Big Horn Battlefield in
Montana,which allowed archeologists to use metal detectors to locate shell casings and bullets and such.
I am positive i read that they concluded that the movie version of the Indians riding around the 7th Cavalry in circles was mostly drama and therefore false. However, I am unable to locate the research on it.
What the archeologists actually found were numerous sniper shooting holes with remnant shell casings at each one where they picked off many of them that way.
Gary Olson says
MARCH 26, 2018 AT 12:45 PM
Oh…and one more thing. It took my participation in this on going discussion for the past five years to “see” these common data points and threads in context after staring at them for years without seeing them and understanding what they are.
Now…I just have to be able to paint a picture for you by connecting the dots (data point and threads) one at a time so your eyes will be opened as well.
I hope I can do it. 🙂
Reply
Woodsman says
MARCH 26, 2018 AT 6:27 PM
Well, Big G, grab a brush & a sheet of canvas & hop to it. Lives of good people are at stake here. There’s a better chance somebody will listen to you as your credentials are rock solid in the world of hotshots…if I recall, some of the best times of your life?
Woodsman says
MARCH 26, 2018 AT 6:57 PM
“Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
George Santayana
Gary Olson says
MARCH 26, 2018 AT 8:18 PM
OK…I’m on it. I will actually work on a Readers Digest version so I don’t have to wait for my book to come out to share my nuggets of wisdom and insight.
Plus…with those of you who are still here, I can skip the lengthy back story because you already know that part and you “get it.”
And yes…being a Wildland Firefighter and specifically a grunt and a ground pounder was the happiest times of my life. I have to insist on that because I was always so jealous and resentful of the luxurious life those who showed up in either their own engines or helicopters enjoyed.
And as I have said before, my happy place is back in the shadow of the magnificent Sangre de Christo Mountains in the Land Of Enchantment, Nuevo Mexico.
I liked Flagstaff as well, but I didn’t work or live most of the time in Flagstaff. I worked all of the time and lived most of the time at Happy Jack on the Long Valley Ranger District in the middle of friggin’ nowhere. It was like being at a Special Operations Group, Forward Operating Base where the Lord Of The Flies meets Animal House. So it is kind of hard to call that my “Happy Place.” A great place to learn how to be a hotshot, but…
Fun Fact…New Mexico has to print USA on their license plates because so many ignorant people in the rest of the country think anyone with a New Mexico plate is from a foreign country.
Gary Olson says
MARCH 26, 2018 AT 9:54 PM
Oh…and one more thing. Whenever I have floated my “Hubris is the number one killer of hotshots to people who are former hotshots or those who know what it means to be a hotshot, they invariably say something like, “Yes, but hotshots have to have that in order to do their job.”
Which of course I agree with, but it is nuanced. Now of course if RTS were responding to this he would write something about no one needs hubris to be an effective hotshot, humility and an absence of braggadocio is far more important. So, just to be clear…I use hubris and “confidence” on a level of between 1 and 10 at a borderline 11 interchangeably. It is just easier to type or say,
one word…”hubris.”
And at the risk of using yet another totally inaccurate military comparison to WF because wildfires can’t think and due to the simple fact it has to follow the laws of nature, I am going to use one simply because it is easy to visualize.
“Those who recruit, train, supervise and manage hotshots have to pump them up and convince them of their own superiority and invincibility in order to make them believe they can succeed by fully committing to a full frontal assault on the machine gun position because they are just that good.”
That is what prepares ordinary people to be able and willing to undertake extraordinary tasks when their primordial survival instinct tells them to run away.
Now…this concept works really good most of the time because those who are actually leading the hotshots on the fireline understand and know how to apply “nuance” while prosecuting their missions and they know you don’t really charge the machine gun nest, you just know you could and be successful if it was really necessary to do so, but it’s not necessary or a good idea because you will probably DIE and beating the wildfire is never THAT important.
We only know of three times in the history of hotshots when this system has experienced catastrophic failure because those who were actually leading the hotshots failed to appropriately apply nuance at the appropriate time in the appropriate way. And of course that was on the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires.
Gary Olson says
MARCH 26, 2018 AT 10:14 PM
Think about it though. On those three fires, those hotshots had the discipline, confidence, courage, commitment, loyalty and belief in themselves and their leaders…they followed them into the maw of hell.
Is “into the maw of hell” to corny? All of those who died were burned alive…so I don’t think so.
Gary Olson says
MARCH 26, 2018 AT 10:27 PM
And just as a reminder, I always exclude the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain which is often mistakenly called the Storm King Mountain Fire.
Based on my study of that fire, those 9 Prineville Hotshots died more like the 7th Calvary Troopers died with General Custer at the Battle Of The Little Big Horn. There was no leadership present that day or a Last Stand.
There was only chaos, confusion, disorganization and panic, retreat, disaster and ultimately…horrible deaths.
Gary Olson says
MARCH 27, 2018 AT 9:53 AM
I received some constructive criticism for my literary use of the comparison of how the Troopers in the 7th Calvary died in the Battle Of The Little Big Horn, so I am going to try and explain myself.
I know that sometimes when someone asks me what time it is, I tell them how to build a watch. So I do try to keep it short, but by doing so, especially in this abbreviated format, a lot is left out and is open to interpretation.
If you detected a tone of disgust and anger in my comparison, it was there, but was not directed at either the 9 Prineville Hotshots, the 2 helitack or the 3 smokejumpers who were burned alive on the steep slope of Storm King Mountain and this includes the jumper in charge and IC Don Mackey, nor the 274 Troopers and Induan Scouts who died from the 7th Calvary.
My anger in both cases is directed at the government who was responsible for all of the loss in both cases. The BLM in the first and the Department Of Army in the second, combined with the arrogance and criminal stupidity of General Custer which I think has been well documented and accepted by mainstream experts.
I think the original sins in the Battle Of The Little Big Horn, staying completely out of the moral right or wrong of the Indian Wars, was sending Troopers to fight an adversary with inferior weapons because the federal government was just to damn cheap and corrupt to provide its soldiers with the latest and best weapons that were available that incidentally their adversaries did have.
It was not only a lope sided battle in terms of numbers (several hundred against several thousand) but the Troopers were armed with single shot rifles whereas their adversaries had repeating rifles.
In terms of the chaos, confusion, disorganization etc. during the Battle Of The Little Big Horn and ultimate horrible deaths, I was referring to the latest archeological research (that I believe is accurate) that shows that rather than a disciplined and organized defense of their position resulting in a heroic last stand, it was rather hundreds of separate battles between individual combatants in complete confusion resulting in a total breakdown of command and control which resulted in a confused melee and slaughter of the Troopers, which was the fault of management, not the individual soldiers who gave their lives for their country and deserved much better.
As far as the South Canyon Fire goes, I have expressed my opinion in some detail regarding that fire on this thread before.
But as a short reminder, those wildland firefighters deserved much better from the government represented by the BLM as well because the BLM’s incompetence and failed policies resulted in those WF losing their lives for their country as well when it was totally avoidable and unnecessary.
The specific policy I am referring to is the BLM’s policy to make the first jumper out of the door the jumper in charge and Incident Commander regardless of their qualifications or skill set.
This probably works okay most of the time on small isolated smokejumper fires with very few people and resources to manage, but I think it can quickly become problamatic on larger and more complex fires.
I think it has been well documented that Don Mackey, although he was technically qualified to be IC, was more suited to keeping his head down and building fireline than managing a complex fire with mixed resources and agencies in a real hodgepodge of personnel, because Mackey had his head down constructing fireline when he should have been heads up with complete situational awareness to see they were constructing fireline ABOVE an uncontrolled wildfire without any anchor points on a very steep slope in what the Colorado Division Of Forestry calls Fuel Type X, that is frost killed Gamble Oak up to 12 feet high that is so explosive, fires in that fuel type have been documented to run down and kill adult mule deer, in addition to the fact that the area had been burned earlier by a ground fire through the understory that further prepped the overstory to literally explode in what was a giant canyon and natural chimney, with the WF above the fire when it did finally go off like a bomb.
And on top of that, the senior BLM engine supervisor from the local area was in charge until the jumpers showed up and then Mackey was in charge for some things, but the other guy was still in charge for other things and it kind of went back and forth which resulted in no one really being in charge.
And into this mess went an entire squad of 9 Prineville Hotshots from Oregon by helicopter insertion who were unfamiliar with the area or Fuel Type X.
Neither the Prineville Hotshot Crew Boss nor their Number 2 were with the squad that was sent in, they were both still waiting down at the helibase with the second squad and never made it to the fire when things went to hell in a hand basket.
I don’t think it is uncommon for a squad boss under those circumstances to lack the juice (status and influence) to call bullshit on the situation and refuse to go along in order to get along.
Now…that is my short interpretation of just some of the things that went wrong on the South Canyon Fire. Iif I have it wrong, I will be more than happy to read or listen to an opposing assessment and if it makes sense, I will modify my position accordingly on both the South Canyo Fire and the Battle Of The Little Big Horn.
I know I do have a tendency to blame management first and ask questions later given my long and at times unhappy relationship with “the suits”, especially those in the BLM who fucked up the Battlement Creek Fire as well and then blamed the firefighters for their incompetence and malfeasance, whoops….getting angry again, time to sign off.
Gary Olson says
MARCH 28, 2018 AT 11:20 AM
RTS,
Thank you, it has been a few years since I have studied the South Canyon Fire and I have never really focused on it so I knew I was off on some details.
However, I was pretty sure I had the gist of it right and you have confirmed that because you didn’t rip me apart.
One very interesting thing though, is the new information to me that Mackey was sharpening his chain saw which I never knew. And yes, as I have written many times, when all of us are under stress we revert to our ingrained training, which of course is why good training is so important, especially that training that simulates real world experiences.
And I am far from an expert on the Battle Of The Little Big Horn. I have mostly just always focused on the fact that a mismanaged and corrupt federal government sent US soldiers to fight a dirty war with inferior and drastically outdated weapons, probably because I am a gun nut and I always identify with those grunts in the trenches. I have never been able to visualize myself as what the vets used to call a REMF.
And BINGO…you hit on one of my favorite bones to chew on I did not mention in order to keep my post…shorter. And that is Fuel Type X on the South Canyon Fire.
I am not a student of the South Canyon Fire because as I have said, I don’t consider it a hotshot fatality fire like the Loop, Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill fires. I think it is a hotshot related fatality fire because 9 hotshots were burned alive on it, but I personally don’t think the mistakes that were made on it were hotshot mistakes. Nor do I think Mackey was was primarily responsible for what went wrong, he was both a victim and a hero.
I do however, believe deeply flawed agency policies which were revealed in a catastrophic failure that reflected systemic faults that were accepted because the cascading events of the South Canyon Fire hadn’t lined up (Swiss Cheese Effect) since the Battlement Creek Fire, a whole 18 years earlier and we as a species, or at least as a culture have pretty fucking short memories, to fall like dominoes. In that, if any one of them would have been removed from the sequence or equation, no one would have died and the South Canyon Fire would just be one more forgotten wildfire that was “successfully” fought.
But instead…the system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see, which probably resulted in no changes and every since then we have just been lucky which will continue until the next time it happens.
Speaking of the perils of ignoring the lessons of the history, I am working on my next MOAP (mother of all posts) that is going to include the common data points and threads that run between the Battlement Creek and South Canyon Fires, even though as I said, I am not as interested in the South Canyon Fire as I am the others, I leave that task to “generalists” in wildland firefighter safety such as yourself.
I have however, always been interested in those common data points between the two fires, which I find dumbfounding and a true indictment of the BLM Fire management people, especially those in the local area of Grand Junction.
Here are some of them off the top of my head,
Both fires,
1. Were in the same specific fuel type, which was the infamous but little known and understood (outside of the Colorado Division Of Forestry, I guess?) nicknamed Fuel Type X.
2. Out of state hotshots were killed on both fires who were unfamiliar with the area and specific fuel type.
3. Both fires had mixed inter agency resources between the BLM and USFS, which made them inherently more complex and difficult to manage which required higher expertise than the first jumper out of the fucking plane had!
4. Both fires burned at the same time of year with very close dates of occurrence.
5. Both fires trapped and killed wildland firefighters working in huge canyons and natural chimneys ABOVE THE FIRES!
6. Both fires burned on very steep slopes in very rugged terrain.
7. Fire conditions were nearly identical, including severe but anticipated winds.
8. Both fires were managed by the BLM.
9. Neither Fire investigative report identified any agency or system failures and were cover ups.
10. And my favorite…wait for it…Battlement Mesa and Storm King Mountain are only about 50 miles apart. Fuck Me!
I don’t want to oversell my “ Smoking Gun” claim. I never intended to wait this long to publish it but frankly, I have never had the format to do so before now. And the reason I don’t want to oversell it it, is because it will probably mean precious little to precious few and maybe just me because I know the complete backstory and I can see it for what it is. Written proof of a cover up of the Battlement Creek Fire and as far as I am concerned, a damning indictment of the entire system of agency fire investigation cover ups and proof of the dirty way the U.S. Forest Service in particular has operated for decades.
You know Mr, Mike Dudley, there wouldn’t be so many crazy cover up conspiracy theorists out here if there weren’t so fucking many governments cover ups that are revealed at regular intervals. It is also proof to me at least that Shawna Legarza isn’t the first fire god, nor will she be the last to sell her soul for self advancement.
Although…in the meantime RTS, I am curious what you will think of it and if you read it the same way I do (I might be a little off in my perspective since I am more than a little off the Rez) so I will send it to you just in case the USFS has me whacked and my hard drive “disappeared.” This way, they will have to wack you as well…Good Luck old friend!
See…18 USC 1001 and know the law viers an OMMISSION the very same way it views a LIE.
Gary Olson says
MARCH 28, 2018 AT 12:07 PM
Speaking of being s gun nut and providing the best battle rifle possible for our troops and going back to an earlier discussion between Joy and I, I just want to state for the record I am a huge fan of the new Heckler & Koch 27 they are starting to equip our Marines with even though they cost more than 3 times what an FN Herstal manufactured M4 does. I can’t wait to get one of those nasty little bitches (non gender specific) for myself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M27_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle
Joy…although it looks like they are still way behind both of us on the need to upgrade to a heavier bullet like the .300 Blackout and I can’t remember you Serbian pick? Which is probably like I said before, we are too invested in the .556 NATO, probably because it was our idea in the first place?
God Bless America and Our Troops! Somebodies children are dying and suffering life long injuries, including PTSD for the rest of us.
Gary Olson says
MARCH 28, 2018 AT 12:36 PM
As you can probably tell, I was heavily influenced by the few Vietnam combat vets on our crew at a young and very impressionable age.
I don’t know if we belonged in Vietnam or not, but I think I did. I think I would have made a good grunt and ground pounder. But then again…we all know what a high opinion I have of myself. 🙂
Robert the Second says
MARCH 30, 2018 AT 7:40 PM
Woodsman,
Thanks for the good lessons.
This sure got you riled up Woodsman enough to write your spot post about “Todd fucking Abel, you wannabe wildfire guru battalion chief motherfucker” and “those who have ‘fast-tracked’ bypassing the accepted advancement practices & poof! Big-time qualifications overnight. I’m lookin at YOU, Darryl Willis.”
Good stuff sir. Feel free to share the details. Keep up the fine work.
Having issues… When I write a long paragraph, and refresh captcha it lets me, but then I get an error of method not allowed…
Any technical advice???
even on the new chapter.
wow.
I had zero concern on this chapter but on old chapter I always wrote what I had to say in email area and when ready I would copy and paste and then go to IM then click reply or hit end and make it a new comment then click “captcha” then fill in the math then hit submit then hit the “circle arrow” (This means refresh. Refresh means stay on the same page, but try to make it work, this time) then on right a blue thing pooped up and I hit “continue” or at times if it locked in motion I hit back button and circle arrow in that order then that resubmit “continue” buton that popped up
That is all I ever had to do to post but did fine on this chapter Rocksteady but thank you for trying…sure miss your comments…Could use some Canadianisms about now…or maybe I am just craving a little Banff National Park…
Have a safe season you current FF folks and please Forestry/BLM/NPS REMEMBER it is a little TOO DRY as the fuels lack moisture for your current Burn America Burn plans…”just saying”….might not want to be cancelling on account of weather and more like terrain conditions and maybe make sure you have your backup plans in order because I am all for the restoring to fire adapted ecosystem if you got the right THINKING doing it…think about smoke impact in dry conditions please…I just came from doctor and I am now on new antibiotic which I was on the best to knock it out and nope and now on steroids too…so yeah please note as I was waiting another family with cancers and pancreatic…and they were never ill an moved here from WY 5 years ago and 20 ft from their place they had slurr drop…again “just saying”…wake up people….wake up….
Thanks lady i will try your method..
I think WOODSMAN posts on last chapter belong on this new chapter— I found them very important to this thread.
Thank you Woodsman…Your comments have helped on the offline areas for people to open up more so thank you.
things I wanted carried over:
Woodsman says
APRIL 2, 2018 AT 5:54 PM
Yes, Gary, you’re complicit. That’s the bad news. The good news is you are MORE than making up for it by having the brass ones to tell the truth. Hell, I don’t think you even knew the truth until much later when you had the time to really take it all in. If it makes you feel better I wasn’t able to see the truth until recently myself. We get caught up in the system until one day we say to ourselves, ” hey! Wait just a fucking minute! DO WHAT??” I’m as guilty as you are, friend. We are awake now. That’s one of the primary reasons why I’m so pissed off. We’ve been had.
RTS is guilty too. We are responsible. BUT, it’s never too late to make a change. We got this….together. Technology has increased our odds for success.
Now back to my anger management therapy.
THE Woodsman
———————
Woodsman says
APRIL 3, 2018 AT 8:57 AM
To expand on my statement, it’s not a simple process of placing each other in the appropriate “box” labeled COMPLICIT or NON-COMPLICIT as my words may be interpreted. We are all located somewhere on the spectrum of complicity, from very little to “all in.” It can be logically argued that even ‘civilians’ share complicity in fireline fatalities. When you examine people’s expectations of firefighters in protection of the forest resource and minimizing the impacts to private property, it simply must be considered by any rational human.
Using myself as an example, on July 28, 2002 I was on a crew as a basic firefighter near Happy Camp, CA engaged in the Stanza fire. 3 USFS engine crew members lost their lives when their engine lost traction at the edge of the road and rolled down the mountain. There were many causal factors to this accident. Has it bothered me since that night? You DAMN STRAIGHT it has! Even as an FFT2 (basic) I knew at the time of the hazard of that section of road due to the width, surface, and trouble with traffic on it. Adding smoke and darkness, it’s identified hazards killed three good people because management wasn’t sharp enough to change the way firefighters were using that section of road. BUT, I was a brand new guy, what the heck do I know? Double-BUT, I didn’t speak up other than to my crew boss. I certainly didn’t do everything in my power to stop it and it 100% could have and should have been stopped.
It takes time and experience for firefighters to build the toolbox that allows them to SEE…not merely observe but SEE! Until most gain this, through time spent on the line, we MUST rely on leadership to SEE FOR US and not merely OBSERVE!!!! Not only that, they must speak up about it and change how we are operating in the fire environment in response to the visual factors identified in the changing nature of wildfires.
Too many put their own self interests first as considerations for money, advancement, and to GO ALONG TO GET ALONG. The non-boat rockers possess something or things that are apparently more important than doing the right thing even though it may mean negative consequences personally. I’ve believed for a tragically long period of time that, as a wildfifre community, when it comes to safety: WE TALK THE TALK BUT WE DON’T WALK THE WALK!!! This must change or more will die in the future in similar incidents due to the human factors of sub-standard decision-making under stress.
So what does it take to effect real change in the business of wildland firefighting in the US? Courage and SELFLESSNESS!!! It takes people with their head on straight who have the intestinal fortitude to be able to tell management to shove it, “the people I’m responsible for ARE NOT going to do that!” In other words it takes the individual to first change themselves and others will follow. (thank you Mr. P)
In summary, the claim I made that you, me, RTS, and nearly everyone in this business is complicit in covering up after accidents is a very complicated matter. We should ask each other: “What are we DOING or NOT DOING to make wildland firefighting more likely to be accident free while providing an efficient service to the taxpayers when it comes to wildfires in the US?”
What are you doing to prevent injury/deaths on the fireline? What have you NOT done about it? Why? Give yourself an honest self-assessment. We have become specialists at lying to ourselves! We’ve got that down pat!
If you are responsible for others as a fireline leader, and you have concrete evidence of serial cover-ups by management in nearly every single major fireline accident investigation (and if you don’t by now, you must be brain dead or blinded by indoctrination into the system), what are you going to do about it? How will you go about making sure the people you are responsible for are safe on and off the line?
One more thing: the word “SAFE.” Maybe it has become over-utilized and by default a cliche’. “Let’s be safe out there!” ” Safety first every fire every time!” I propose we change it to PROTECTION of our people. My last sentence above should read:
How will you go about making sure the people you are responsible for are PROTECTED from harm on and off the line?
Woodsman
Reply
Woodsman says
APRIL 3, 2018 AT 9:07 AM
…And it is a monumental barrier to learning when “management” doesn’t allow firefighters to actually learn from fatality investigations due to the rampant conspiracy to commit fraud by explicit burial of the real causes of fireline deaths by the investigation teams. Incidentally, these investigation teams are always packed full of the types of personnel Gary refers to as fire god or those on the fast-track to fire god status…those who would sell their own grandmother in order to preserve their paycheck, status and retirement funds for the future. Selfish and sick bastards… every last one of them!
Reply
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
APRIL 3, 2018 AT 10:04 AM
Reply to Woodsman post
on April 3, 2018 at 9:07 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> It is a monumental barrier to learning when
>> “management” doesn’t allow firefighters to
>> actually learn from fatality investigations
>> due to the rampant conspiracy to commit
>> fraud by explicit burial of the real causes
>> of fireline deaths
Monumental is right.
It’s as if the Airline Pilots Association is the only agency allowed to “investigate” airplane crashes.
As Gary has already pointed out… if that were the case then planes would be falling out of the sky and the only ‘explanation’ the grieving family members would be getting is “Flying is inherently dangerous. Get over it.”
At some point the responsibility for investigating Wildland fireline deaths has to be taken AWAY from the U.S. and State level Forestry agencies.
The argument that “We’re the only ones who understand what we do so we are the only ones qualified to investigate” is, and always has been, total bullshit.
The investigations must be TRULY ‘independent’.
As you and Gary have now both said…
Not just to LOOK… but to truly SEE.
Reply
Gary Olson says
APRIL 3, 2018 AT 11:12 PM
Hallelujah brother! Can I get an amen? AMEN!
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WantsToKnowTheTruth says
APRIL 3, 2018 AT 10:10 AM
Reply to Woodsman post on April 3, 2018 at 8:57 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> To expand on my statement… ( snip )
Incredibly well said.
Thank you.
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Woodsman says
APRIL 3, 2018 AT 1:37 PM
Your welcome. We have become experts at facade construction & replaced potential progress with extreme energy spent in the program of “covering the bases.” That’s why we have a Lessons Learned Center where the real lessons are not shared at all. It’s a sham.
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WantsToKnowTheTruth says
APRIL 3, 2018 AT 4:35 PM
‘Facade’. Good word.
Describes the situation perfectly.
——————————————————–
fa·cade
fəˈsäd/
noun
noun: facade; plural noun: facades; noun: façade; plural noun: façades
An outward appearance that is maintained to conceal a less pleasant or creditable reality.
——————————————————-
The “bait-and-switch”
from the surprisingly
frank Burn-Baby-Burn
“reincarnated”
Woodsman of Olde
into the “far safer and more politically correct”
Critic of Managerial Oversight Responsibility
(equally valid, tho’ it may be)
would seem to best be described, thusly…
“What are we
DOING
or
NOT DOING
to make BURN-BABY-BURN
more likely to be accident free
while providing an efficient service to THOSE taxpayers NOT
living in the Wildland-Urban-Interface, when it comes to wildfires in the US?”
from last chapter—good readings I do not want lost in the weeds—
Woodsman says
FEBRUARY 21, 2018 AT 7:05 PM
Pattern recognition is a survival trait.
Woodsman says
MARCH 25, 2018 AT 4:57 PM
Here is one of the main issues with the business of wildland firefighting in the United States: it’s an exclusive club. You’re in or you’re out. I’m lookin at you Todd fucking Abel, you wannabe wildfire guru battalion chief motherfucker. There’s two kinds of firefighters in the wildland arena: those who have progressed through the system the right way & those who have ‘fast-tracked’ bypassing the accepted advancement practices & poof! Big-time qualifications overnight. I’m lookin at YOU, Darryl Willis.
The life or death situation on the firelines of America manifests itself when those working on the fire don’t actually know which class their leaders come from either through ignorance or voluntary cognitive dissonance. So let me ask you: who is your supervisor & more importantly, how did they get there? Recognition of the answer to this question and hedging accordingly in your daily risk analysis JUST MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE!
Nothing can be taken for granted or assumed in the business of wildland firefighting. The sooner you accept this reality, the more likely you & those around will have an accident free successful mission. So, let’s THINK out there, people. It’s not rocket science!
The Woodsman
Reply
Woodsman says
MARCH 25, 2018 AT 5:42 PM
Lesson #2
The pervasive national Let It Burn Unofficial Official Policy
The powers that be want it all to burn. At first glance one may believe this ideology is in reaction to a hundred year philosophy of maximum fire exclusion from the landscape… but it’s actually more than that, way more. The people behind the curtain pulling the strings as it were WANT IT ALL TO BURN. Why, you ask? Because it’s good for fuel reduction therefore lessening the impacts from wildfires that are likely to occur? Well, yes but it’s more than that. It is believed by some of those in power that humans are a blight to the planet, fire is a natural part of the ecology of the land, and by default it NEEDS to burn for the cleansing of mother earth. Oops, I almost forgot: just as the enormity of the military/industrial complex was identified years ago our society has entrenched another similar phenomenon: the wildfire/industrial complex. Big fires pay, big time. So how about it residents of Curry county, Oregon? How about you, Gatlinburg? Ever wonder why it took the Park Service 3 freaking days to actually attempt to extinguish a small fire in the rocks? Now you know why.
THE Woodsman
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Woodsman says
MARCH 25, 2018 AT 5:58 PM
.,.and if your home or your subdivision is in the way, TOO BAD, you shouldn’t have lived there anyway. You should live in a planned development with government water & sewer service. Mother Earth is more important than pesky human life. That’s the truth. You will not hear the truth, however. You will hear excuse after excuse. Failing to engage in aggressive initial attack in the name of firefighter safety is a common excuse. The old-timers know Exactly what I’m talking about. That’s what public information officers are used for: lying to the public in order to cover up the honest truth of what’s really being considered by fire managers in order to ‘contain’ a wildfire. FIRE USE, baby! Look it up.
Woodsman
Reply
Woodsman says
MARCH 25, 2018 AT 6:56 PM
And speaking of fire managers placing the needs of ‘the resource’ ahead of human life, I have a story to share. Before I continue, let me first say that I’ve reached the limits of my tolerance to keep my mouth shut in order to play along with the charade.
Look here, leaders of wildfire across the land, I’ve given you upwards of 6 MONTHS to give us a factual report on the 2, count them 2!, tree strike fatalies in Montana last July & August. That’s right 2 fatality by tree strike on the same forest 2 weeks apart.
#1 The condition of the Lolo & Beaverhead-Deerlodge national forests was shocking! Square mile after square mile of dead lodgepole, a true mess unlike I’ve ever witnessed before in 20 years of service. It’s my understanding that active forest management including tree harvesting & thinning has all but been eliminated from consideration due to special interest groups and subsequent litigation preventing stand thinning and other silvicultural practices from occurring. Thus the public forests are miles of standing & down timber ripe for burning when lightning strikes. What a shameful piece of ground!
I’ve carried this with me for over 6 months: I received an unsolicited in person first hand account of the events surrounding the death of hotshot Witham on the Lolo Peak fire. Fireline leaders opted for use of mechanized equipment for dead tree snag removal in the fireline construction area but were OVERRULED by forest personnel, their objection being it was in an area classified as PROPOSED WILDERNESS AREA. (It wasnt true designated wilderness yet) That’s right, no machinery allowed! Out came the mechanized tree harvester and in went the hotshots (hand crew.) On the first shift Mr. Witham was killed by a tree strike. In summary, I have one question for my readers: are fire managers putting the resource ahead of human life? My answer is YES, they are.
RIP, Brent Witham, you deserved better leadership across the board. Also, deepest prayers for the feller-buncher operator who related his personal account of the true happenings of that day to me. It’s not your fault!
Trenton Johnson of Grayback forestry type 2 crew was the victim of the tree strike fatality 2 weeks prior to this event on the same forest. While I have no first hand knowledge of the circumstances in his death, I wonder what if any unnecessary risks were taken due to consideration of the resource needs in comparison to the preservation of human life.
Woodsman
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Woodsman says
MARCH 25, 2018 AT 7:32 PM
One can easily check behind my words if you don’t believe me. It’s written in black and white all over wildfire documents. Just go to the lessons learned center. There is an 11 min 26 sec video entitled ” Every Fire is an Opportunity to Treat a Landscape. ” This mentality has absolutely infected the management of wildfires in the United States today.
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Woodsman says
MARCH 25, 2018 AT 7:40 PM
…….and everyone knows you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet, right? The civilians who lost their lives in Gatlinburg were the eggs. Afterall , every fire is an opportunity to treat a landscape. Read the management plan for GSM national park – reintroduce fire to the landscape as much as possible.
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Gary Olson says
MARCH 25, 2018 AT 9:02 PM
Dear Woodsman;
Whoa now…where did that come from.? What did I miss? In any case, you have certainly given me a lot to think about just after I finished watching the Stormy Daniels interview on “60 Minutes.” She is the gift that just keeps on giving!
And in return…here is what I have been thinking about today in the hope that it might give any WF who are still checking this thread something to think about while they are waiting for my much anticipated and highly acclaimed (at least conceptually) tome to be finished and published.
“I have been thinking a lot today about somebody in the USFS “authorizing” the El Cariso Hotshots and only them, to wear berets…black berets. I think that is really weird and the perfect metaphor or symbol for my theory that “Hubris is the number one killer of Hotshots.”
I mean…WTF, black berets? I knew that airborne units of the US Army are authorized to wear maroon berets and that Special Forces are authorized to wear green berets, like everyone else knows, but I was a little fuzzy on the black ones.
FYI…those used to be the sole honor for the glory covered 75th Ranger Regiment until General Shinseki, who was the Army Chief Of Staff at the time, fucked it up and decided everyone in the Army should wear a black beret…kind of like everyone getting blue ribbon for “participating.” And now the Rangers wear a tan one because Shinseki ruined what the black beret had come to symbolize for he elite Rangers first made famous for scaling the cliffs of Normandy on D Day.
But isn’t that weird, given the context of the time…1966, (while we were winning the Vietnam War, think John Wayne in “The Green Berets” and before Walter Cronkite decided we should just declare victory and withdraw after the disastrous Tet Offensive of 1968) that the El Cariso Hotshots would be considered so special somebody authorized them to wear black berets that were synonymous with the second only to Special Forces in fame…the storied Army Rangers?
As Hotshots, used to run in cadence to, “I want to be an Airborne Ranger, live a life of constant danger” etc. led by some an ex Vietnam door gunner and Huey Crew Chief who ended up being captured and held hostage by the Revolutionary Guard when the Shah was deposed because he was in Iran working under contract for Bell Helicopters for the Iranian Government and making a bunch of money at the time.
Anyway…I have been writing a chapter on the whole concept in my head today. Those black berets killed 12 El Cariso Hotshots (at least partially…no, they were symbolically totally responsible, or at least what the black berets symbolized was totally responsible for those deaths) and severely burned a bunch more of those stupid glory driven fucks who had a terminal case of “Hero Complex.”
Think about it.
Reply
Gary Olson says
MARCH 25, 2018 AT 9:33 PM
Whoops, I meant to write, “as Hotshots, during my early years we used to “run in formation singing in cadence,” not running in cadence.
That tradition was lost once the Vietnam guys were all gone from our crew. But…it was inspiring while it lasted…I guess?
Running in formation and singing in cadence like Airborne Ranger wannabes was like a lot of things hotshot crew managers do to build esprit de corps that motivate ordinary people to do extraordinary things while working as the “tip of the WF spear” in situations that would make most people run the other way while saying…”FUCK THIS SHIT; I’m outta here!”
Reply
Gary Olson says
MARCH 26, 2018 AT 12:29 PM
FYI,
As I have written before, I am a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires. All of course are the wildfires that killed Hotshots with flames, as opposed to random accidental deaths.
I am researching and writing about the data points all of these fires have in common and the threads that run through all of them. These common data points and threads meet the very definition of George Santayana’s famous quote.
https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana
I hope to use my research and writing to beat “them” like the low down dirty dogs they are. These fire gods are now epitomized by my old friend…Shawna Legarza.
Unfortunately, my very own personal most beloved and respected fire god, Bill Buck is in this same group. Like I have written many times, I don’t have any secrets from you, who are indeed among my closest friends and confidants.
There are just things I haven’t had a chance to tell you about yet and that will eventually include the “Smoking Gun” I am in possession of that Bill used to kill the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire.
SPOILER ALERT – The Battlement Creek Fire SAIT was in possession of this smoking gun but…wait for it….they covered it up and it was not mentioned in their final SAIR or anywhere else until it was sent to me 30 years later.
God Bless America!
Reply
Bait and switch? FUCK YOU, shadow person who doesn’t have the balls to post your own shit. I speak in my own words. If you don’t like it, write your own shit down and run it up the flagpole. Maybe a professional word twister can do better. Well, go ahead, attorn some shit. I make no apology for my efforts. Politically correct? Ha! That’s a fucking good one!!!
Woodsman,
I’ve been slacking somewhat so finally getting around to replying to you .Thanks for talking about the 2002 Stanza Fire on the Klamath Death Forest.
http://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/incident-lists/249-stanza-engine-11.html
I knew Heather pretty well when she worked on the Sacramento Hot Shots, so it was pretty difficult to deal with her death.
Either that Fall or the next Spring I attended the Region 5 Hot Shot Workshop and her Father came and made a heart rending presentation to us that really made an impression of me.
He told us all that he and other parents gave their children and loved ones to us to protect them and guide them and keep them safe.
And he said that he expected “YOU, the supervisors” that he entrusted with her safety and welfare to notify him and her Mother of her death. Instead, they were notified by two USFS employees, a man and a woman dressed in FS uniforms.
In a word, he was PISSED that had occurred.
One thing I recall was how the younger WFs there could not quite grasp the magnitude of what her Father was trying to say because they were the same age or younger and many without children, so it was difficult for them in that sense. That’s my take on it.
And thanks for spewing about the entire fire regime and what it has mutated into.
You are correct that the Wildland Fire LLC has slipped into the same quagmire of Going Along to Get Along.
The SAIT-SAIRs of wildland fire fatalities are ALL coverups, lies, and whitewashes and they base the Staff Rides on the SAIT-SAIRs.
So then, what lessons learned are we really learning?
Keep up the good fight
Thanks, RTS. I left for that fire a bright-eyed youngster & came back a pissed-off man. Wasn’t even given the opportunity to attend the memorial service as we had to return to that fucking section of shitty road. Guess I’ve been pissed for my entire ‘career’ since that night. Ever since that experience I’ve not only had a chip on my shoulder but I’ve constantly scanned for potential developing problems on fire from that day forward and said something about it. To the detriment of advancement at work, (and difficulties in my personal life) I’ve spoken up early & often. What I’ve learned is Managers don’t want to hear it. They want robots who never question and subsequently stroke their ego. I make them uncomfortable as far as I can tell. All I’ve ever wanted to do is protect others from having to go through that. I want others to have a better experience in the field than I have because there’s a lot of good in it. I’ve traded my career advancement opportunities for speaking up. At the finish line I pray it did something, anything positive at all. Unfortunately I’m not sure it has done anything at all, based on the evidence, other made it more difficult to pay the bills. Hence, perpetually pissed-off woodsman…
Oh, & Fuck You, management. Thanks for nuthin…
…and Heather was beautiful & full of life. She was kind enough to engage a few of us on the crew in polite conversation at chow before we headed up to the line. She didn’t make it to the next sit down meal. All because what we were doing, in the place we were doing it, shouldn’t have been done that way. Damn…………..
I’m feeling the urge to rage on. Thank you, JD for providing the format to be able to unleash 19 years of pent up rage. I’m eternally grateful.
Despite the fact that I know I can’t stop them all, I’ve spent 19 seasons trying to stop stupid shit on the fireline. Being one day late to help Witham is excruciating. I live for the day that I can intervene with forest personnel demanding a feller-buncher be tracked back out due to resource considerations… Fucking live for it! Yeah, I’m taking it all on & I give exactly zero fucks who says I can’t. I can & I will.
The Stanza fire report proved to me that fire management is one big sack of fucking liars. Thanks to the antique firefighters posting here I’ve learned its been business as usual for decades. Now these motherfuckers don’t even TRY!!! Right outta the gate they say there’s a lot we will never know about because the victims are dead. Real nice work there, assholes. Can your sweeping under the rug be any more obvious?
I have utmost contempt for all you piece of shit managers who are all hat & no cattle. How you can collect your paycheck & sleep at night I’ll never know. You don’t serve the people or the resource. You serve yourself. Delusions of grandeur is rampant with you. You’re simply fake caricatures of leadership. You have no sense of shame. In closing, fuck you.
Ahh. That’s feels a little better.
W
And one more fucking point while I’m riding the rage train: am I to believe that I’m the only currently active wildland firefighter that posts here? Not one of you thousands of spineless fucks across the country has anything to say? This doesn’t instill 100% confidence in the future if the business. I read other blogs like the Parkie dude & I really don’t see any controversial material presented anywhere. What the fuck is up with that?
SOUND OFF LIKE YOU GOTTA PAIR!!!!!! Ovaries…….testicles……anything……?
Nobody? Nothing? Get with the program!
If you’re worried about a stunted career like mine, don’t! It has less to do with speaking up & more to do with me being a natural contrarian, intimidating, very particular, untrusting, high intensity, undiplomatic general asshole that means well….in my particular situation. YOU have power. YOU can use it.
Woodsman,
I know it hurts to still deal with all that and talk about it, however, that really is only one way to get past it by talking about it and sharing. It sure would be nice if you’d get off “The Rage Train” as you accurately refer to it. I’ve been there way too many times and many times almost fired because of it. And it almost destroyed me.
What I’m trying to say is you need to get OFF that f**cking train Brother. And that goes for you too Gary.
Ya might want to check out the EMDR Institute (Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing) website and this awesome YouTube video from a 20/20 clip on the same subject.
Search within YouTube for “20/20 segment EMDR.” (saving my second link allocation for below)
http://www.emdr.com/
Almost everyone that uses EMDR says they don’t know how it works, it just works. VERY effective!
Yes indeed, Ms. Heather was beautiful & full of life and a damn good WF.
So, this post is for you Heather.
The Klamath Death Forest (KDF) is well known for its incredibly steep terrain and its incredibly toxic 24/7 inversions both on the firelines and in the Fire Camps. And within those toxic inversions, NEVER mentioned in any of the SAIRs, is the deadly CARBON MONOXIDE poisoning that WFs have in varying degrees the entire time they are there under them.
One can purge one’s system of CO within 8-hours if one is allowed to sleep in clean air. However, we are NOT accorded that necessity unless we sleep in a motel or some other clean air facility.
There are some very common and very typical causal factors in the fields of wildland fire Human Error, Human Physiology, and Human Epidemiology as they pertain to CO exposure.
This is a most excellent, all-inclusive 113-page research paper (more like a booklet) on the subject.
Wilbur S, Williams M, and Williams R, et al. Toxicological Profile for Carbon Monoxide. Atlanta (GA): Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (US); 2012 Jun. 3, HEALTH EFFECTS.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK153687/
Acute carbon monoxide poisoning is largely the result of tissue hypoxia, a condition in which the body or a region of the body is deprived of adequate oxygen supply at the tissue level.
Yet, it is the most common un-diagnosed, unspoken, and rarely addressed normal occurrence on the KDF wildfires.
Carbon Monoxide (CO) is an odorless, colorless gas and In a word, it can kill you. It is a very toxic and debilitating poison that exists on all wildfires but particularly on the KDF. I strongly believe that CO is a direct causal factor in many wildfire accidents, injuries, near-fatal, and fatal incidents involving WFs that is never addressed.
The Stanza Fire was the classic case of CO poisoning being a direct causal factor in them inadvertently driving off the road and to their deaths.
Did they take blood samples from the victims to determine their CO levels? Maybe, but I seriously doubt it. And if they did and “FACTUALLY” found high levels of CO in their bloodstreams, they would not publish it.
They certainly did NOT discuss it in their “Accident Investigation FACTUAL Report.” Factual … really? WTF!? additionally, Engine 11 was not even listed on the Stanza Incident IAP. So the, WTF is up with that?
Josef Pieper in his book ‘Abuse of Language – Abuse of Power,’ wrote: “To respect words and their conveyance of reality is to show respect to the very foundation of reality. TO MANIPULATE WORDS IS TO SEEK TO MANIPULATE TRUTH AND TO INSTEAD CHOOSE FALSITY AND ILLUSION OVER REALITY. THE MANIPULATION OF WORDS IS ITSELF A VIOLENT ACT. …” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Another term that comes to mind is George Orwell’s 1984, DOUBLESPEAK and even worse, DOUBLESPEAK, where one can grasp on to two opposing thoughts as both being true at the same, (e.g. love is hate, peace if war).
And of course, The Bible states: “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” (Isaiah 5:20)
So then, it is a permissible inference that those WFs were under the toxic and debilitating influence of CO toxicity which adversely influenced their situational awareness, their decision-making, and therefore also adversely affected their driving.
Once again, this is for you Heather, and for your WF Brothers that perished with you.
GTS the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (LLC) and go to the the Incident Review section.
You can try and get it by going through their LLC search links but it doesn’t populate.
So the, in the upper right “search” slot enter 2002 Stanza Fire.
RTS,
I hate to admit it, due to my stubbornness, but I know you’re right. I must step off the rage train. In fact I gotta leave now. I’m going to spend my off hours tying flies, rebuilding my jeep, & spending time with my kids.
Fact is I’m just repeating myself over & over like a broken record anyway. I think the fact that no other current firefighters are speaking up may actually be saying something about me instead if all them.
I will check out the therapy you recommend. Can’t hurt, right. Thanks.
I’ve said all I need to say anyway.
Your thoughts in CO poisoning at Stanza is valid. It was a smokey inverted mofacka! The freshly graded road of substandard width & a complete absence of traffic control were major factors as well.
Hope to meet you on the line one day.
Thanks to JD & all the good folks here for all the efforts.
WOODSMAN OUT!!!
Reply to Woodsman’s post on April 3, 2018 at 1:37 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> We have become experts at facade construction & replaced potential
>> progress with extreme energy spent in the program of “covering the bases.”
>> That’s why we have a Lessons Learned Center where the real lessons are
>> not shared at all. It’s a sham.
‘Facade’. Good word.
Describes the situation perfectly.
———————————————————————————————————-
fa·cade
fəˈsäd/
noun
noun: facade; plural noun: facades; noun: façade; plural noun: façades
An outward appearance that is maintained to conceal a less pleasant or creditable reality.
———————————————————————————————————